William Penn's return to John Faldo's reply, called A curb for William Penn's confidence, &c. writ in defence of his answer to John Faldo's printed challenge. Penn, William, 1644-1718. 1674 Approx. 59 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 16 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-12 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A54205 Wing P1355 ESTC R21591 12361483 ocm 12361483 60239 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A54205) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 60239) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 645:9) William Penn's return to John Faldo's reply, called A curb for William Penn's confidence, &c. writ in defence of his answer to John Faldo's printed challenge. Penn, William, 1644-1718. 30 p. s.n., [London? : 1674] Caption title. Dated: 12th 9th Mon. 1674. Reproduction of original in Bodleian Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. 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Faldo's Challenge was in terms so Modest , that no man not bent to be Abusive , and resolv'd against all Candor and Moderation , could have taken such Pains as he hath done , to bedirt it . Would I so ill bestow my Time , I could well nigh fill as great a Compass with the Hard Names he flings upon it ; The Refuge and Practice of Petulant and Empty Adver●aries . His Title charges it with False Inf 〈…〉 a 〈…〉 s and Juglings : I seriously pro●ess , I never intended any thing with more Tr●th , Plainness and Softness then that short Answer . And truly , that which renders this Usage at any time ●neasie , is the fastening unjustly that Character upon me & my Friends , which is most deservedly their own , thereby concealing and securing the Offender , and substituting the Innocent in his room , to the Deceiving of the Simple , and exposing us to the Bate of the rude and ignorant Multitude : But it is our Lot , and mine at this time more particularly ; I was treated at another rate whilst I could cry Hosanna to his Order . But let us hear what he sayes to prove that my Answer contains f●lse Insinuations and Juglings . I told him , That it was unfairly done of him to chuse the Barbican-Meeting , to divulge his Challenge to me , which I had receiv'd no notice of . To this he replies ; That the Meeting was occasion'd by the Quakers Appeal : Which , beside that it is nothing to the Purpose , is a great Untruth : Did we occasion any Meeting , wherein we were concerned to be present without our Notice and Consent , either as to Matter or Manner , Time or Place , taking the word Occasion in the common Acceptation of it ? No-body surely , but J. Faldo , and such Prejudgers can think so . For Shame be Just ! But he believes such a Critical Season seldom happens , wherein both G. W. and I before so long a Season out of the Reach of so publick a Concern . What then ! Therefore were we not then out of Reach ? What would he be at ? Lamentable Weakness ! Is this to justifie his Cowardly Brags ? I will call them so now , since softer Terms fair'd so ill at his hands . But let J. F know , that for that Glorious Gospel of Jesus Christ , our Lord , he with as much Envy as Untruth s●ggests us to deny , we are frequently engaged in remote Places , and that for Weeks , and sometimes Moneths , where no Letters can be sent to us with any previous Knowledge where to find us ; insomuch as that our nearest and dearest Relations may have taken their Leave of this World , and exchanged their House for Grave ; before our Return , or Knowledge of their Condition ; which might have better bee● considered by this Stipendiary Resident , who though he gets more Money by it , is not exposed to that and many other Hardships . But to palliate the Injust Procedure of the Baptists against us at their first Barbican-Meeting , he tells us a Tail of G. Whitehead's surprizing him with a Dispute upon three dayes Notice , which he saith , was not according to the Agreement made betwixt him and some of our Friends , to wit , Mutual Consent ; which granted to him , neither helps the Baptists , nor hurts us : for first , G. Whitehead went principally to a Meeting of our Friends , and if he might have Opportunity , to allay the Heat of this Vapouring Adversary . 2dly , It was so far left with J. Faldo , either to accept or reject , as that it was most remote from the Thoughts of G. W. upon his Refusal to assemble the Inhabitants of the Place , and in his Absence exclaim both against his Faith and Pra●tice ; our manifest Suffering from T. Hicks and his Confederates 3dly , There can be nothing well falser then his insinuating the Issue of that M●eting to have been his Q●iet from the Quakers ; if by Quiet he understands any Fear upon them from his Force of Argument to encounter him ; since he could neither recover our half Proselyte , as he is pleased to call that Person once a Hearer of him ; nor did he re●t one Moneth without a fair offer of another Meeting from some of our Friends near the Place of his Residence , which , as I am informed , he declined : I blame him not for doing so . But suppose G. W. was as culpable as he represents him , who so little deserved his Reflection ; how doth this excuse T. Hicks , or extenuate his own Injustice , who without any Notice given to G. W. or my self , did so publickly at Barbican in our Absence abuse the one , and challenge forth the other in Defence of himself and Friends , from a Charge then exhibited by him against our Faith and Principles , suggesting to the Auditory , as if what were in Reality but his own crooked Consequences ( detested of us ) had been the express Articles of our Creed . If yet he can presume to believe himself Modest , Just or Christian , his Case is desperate , and I heartily pitty his Mistake . But he faults me for saying , He could not but know of my being at a great Distance ; telling me , That I either make him an Extraordinary Gnostick , or my self such an Over-Lasher as needs to have my words well measured after me . Truly if J. Faldo hath the Doing of it , I am sure to be wronged , unless he hath changed his Wont . How near a kin he is to the Gnosticks in other Respects , I will not undertake to determine ; only if what Epiphamus writes of their Self Conceit , be true , J. F. has printed himself one of the Extraordinariest Gnosticks of this Age : But I will stand to my words , that he must needs know of my Absence ; for they that gave him notice of the Meeting , being some of the Persons concern'd , might also inform him , that I was at a great distance , they receiving that Answer : But left he should deny all this , as proba●le as it is , the Prolocutor's Gloss upon the Word EAST , doth the Business to an Hairs breadth ; for unless J. Faldo's Ears happen like J. Ives's , to be all of a sudden thick of Hearing , or to have as great an Impediment as T. Hick's Tongue ( that is , in Cases unpleasant to them ) he could not but observe , that W. K. insinuated , as if I had Voyag'd to the East-Land , or the East-Indies , too far for the Noise of J. Faldo's Charge to be heard , as Empty as it was ▪ But I must not forget , and yet take no Delight to remember , that Grave Person purposely left out England , joyn'd to East , in the Letter , that he might better break his Jest . But be it as it will , I cannot but return J. Faldo an Allusion in his first Book , it may be , not in the very Words , yet the same Sense , viz. That he doth with me in this as nicely and unjustly , as some Physitians , who strictly prohibit that to their Patients they eat themselves with great Gusto . I further told him , as he observes , that I had twice Defended our Faith in Print against him , and that a considerable Book lay at his Door unanswer'd . To this he gives me several Returns , worth noting , for something or other : one is this , That he perfectly knows the Contrary ; To what ? That I have twice defended our Belief : The Quibble is here ; I have twice Writ , but not twice Defended ; notable ! but he goes of late for a Critick . however , who say so ? John Faldo . Doth he prove as well as say ? No such matter . He would not be mistaken , yet in asserting he transcends ; for he further tells us , That I have not overthrown one Line of his books ; in which , as he explicitely proves his own Impudence and Ostentation , so implicitely he calls many , far from Quakerism , as he terms it , Fools or Knaves for the●r contrary Judgment . But to the next Reason ; My Prints have confirmed him ; which , though no Evidence to others of the Reasonableness of his Belief , yet a great one to me , that that Scripture is fulfilling upon him , Wicked Men shall wax worse and worse . But this is not all : He tells us , That it is not a Considerable Book . Who expe●ted J. Faldo should say any other ? But doth he not hold himself oblieged to help others to the same Creed ▪ if his Heat be any better then Mercenary ? should he not endeavour to disintangle those that otherwise opinionate of the Matter ? Doubtless he thinks it not less deserving his Pains , then those his first Book pretended to refute : If he doth , he would have done well to point in what ; if he doth not , why doth he not answer me as well as them ? Or why did he begin at all , if he intended no to make good what he said ? But I would not be tho●g●t to imitate Pharaoh's putting the People to make Brick without Straw , by urging him to defend that which indeed is indefensible : Only , it is worth our Notice , that the Book is not considerable ; but prethee , why ? I think so . Ergo , what ? It is not considerable . This Way of arguing calls J. Faldo an Idle Meddler , for ever writing an Half-Crown or Three Shillings Book , to terminate here , My Adversary is not Consid●rable . So much Wit , Folly , or Shuffle , call it what he will , would have saved him much Brain-work in the beginning ; but it may do the Man some good : Fol●s ●ay so of Experience dear bought ; and better Rep 〈…〉 . late then never , though its commonly judg'd to be a Repentance per force . Well , but ther 's more behind , viz. Whatever Qualities my last Book had , he tells me , it is more then I knew , that ever he saw it ; He is sure , I never laid it at his Door , by sending one of them to him . If he had said , by receiving one of them it had past him ; for I might have sent it , & it might have many ways miscarried : But I will not press him with this , nor talk either of Gnosticks , or Over-Lashers to Lash him with . And that I may right my self , and shew him how willing I was it should lie at his Door , I did to the best of my remembrance , order him one , and if it came not to his hand , it neither accuseth me , nor excuseth him . J. Faldo sent me none of his , and I think I never gave that for a Reason why either of them lay at my Door . But it seems J. Faldo hath lately been at Bedlam , and one would think so by the Story he tells ; an Impertinent one it is Some Body said something of W. P. &c. but Who he knows not ; here is the Upshot . What I should say I know not ; for he neither directs me to the Person , nor House : So I must be contented to leave it as I found it , with J. Faldo and Bedlam , a Place that suits the Relation . He hath not yet done : My Book is said to be printed in 1673. and it stuck in the Birth till many Months were past of the Year 1674. This hits the Book in the Head , provided the Title-Page may stand for one ▪ But how doth J. Faldo know it stook so many Moneths in 1674 ? Which way came he so well acquainted with the Secrets of the Press ? But let us see what this Objection amounts to . The Title is either printed first , or last : If first , say in 73. would he have the Printer foresee all those Difficulties that may obstruct the coming forth of the Book till 74. in order to set down 73 , 74 ? This were to make a Gnostick of him with a Witness ; or if he doth not , his Book shall be charg'd with an Vntruth : If the Title be printed last ( which I suppose is not common ) say in 74. and he sets down 74. he tells an Vntruth of the Book , though not of the Title : Should the Printer then have set it down 73 , 74. because some of the Book was printed in 73. this had been an Vntruth respecting the Title Page ; for that was all and only printed in 74. That ever a man that loved Reputation at the rate they that know him say he doth , should be so Idle in Print ! Suppose his Observation true ; Is the Book therefore not Considerable ? or doth it not lye at his Door ? or is W. P. to be blamed , which is the Business in hand ? What he would be at I know not ; unless he design'd to shew that he is a Critick and well skill'd in Annals : but I am of Opinion that Baronius ( after the old Proverb ) may sleep in a whole Skin for all J. Faldo's Attempts . His next Reason for not giving my Rejoynder any Return , is , as he sayes elsewhere , Magnipotent . I have two Thousand Pounds per ann . in Possession , as reported : I may waste Paper , but he ( Alas for him ! ) must write no more then is deem'd Convenient and Satisfactory . I perceive that J. Faldo is govern'd much by Reports , and that may be one Reasen why the Man reports so much Vntruth : But if he will make the Report good , I will give him a Years Rent , and let him waste Paper , or waste it in Paper , and then call it an Answer to W. P. if he pleaseth . I observe that his Want of it is the Reason of his not being a better Friend to the Printer ; for his words , that He must write no more then what is deemed convenient , imply , that had he wherewithal , he might Write and Waste , and Waste and Write . But what is the true English of this Apologetical Sentence ? It is to be suspected this , viz. I must write no more then can be sold : The Book-sellers do not deem more of my Writings Convenient and Satisfactory ; For I cannot believe that J. F. could not write what he deems both Convenient and Satisfactory . But what is become of that greedy Appetite in Learned and Vnlearned after his Books , not only certified by the Book-sellers , but with a most nauseous Self Glorying proclaimed by himself in his Vindication ? For my part , I know not what else to infer from all this then that his Books are become a Drug ; at least , they so far stick undigested in the Peoples Stomachs , if not unsold in the Booksellers Shops , as there is neither Appetite enough in the one , nor Room enough in the other for more of the Labours of the Author of Quakerism No Christianity . But he thanks me that I have put one Argument into his Mouth , viz. Wherefore hath W. P. made such a Bussie against Mr. Hicks and me , seeing he hath not toucht , or much less answer'd the far greater part of my first Book ? Oh that J. Faldo would but learn to write Truth , and not cover great Weakness and Baleness with so much Vntruth ! Have I not answered to every Charge in the first Book ? Examin'd 2 , 3 , 4 or 5. of his Witnesses at a time to each Charge ; that is , Testimonies out of our Friends Books , he brought to justifie it ? It seems then that my not fully Answering of his first Book is one Reason why he hath hitherto declin'd Publishing something against my second ; but had the Man been of this Mind before , doubtless he would never have writ a Second . But what saith J. F. to my second Book , wherein I charge him in Point of Fact with so many horrid Abuses or our Principles and Writings ? Not one word , unless that it is a considerable Book for Railing , Confidence , abusing Authors , Impertinences , Falshoods , and unfaithful Gi●●ng what I pretend to confute . What sence can be had against such a Flail ? Is this through the aboundings of the Man's M●desty ? Am I not like to be cur'd of my Confidence by a Curb made up of such Links ? Certainly unless J. Faldo hath as little Brains , as this Character of my Book shows him to have of Honesty , he cannot think tkis Entertainment should prevail with me to step over the Kennel to meet such A — . If ever Man was wrong'd , I am in that Expression ; though his Saying and Not Proving helps it a little . I will at present overlook all but the last Ill Quality he fastens upon my Rejoynder , and that is , Not fairly citing his Reply : I think I may say , I have quoted the better half of his Reply into my Rejoynder , and that with such Distinction as any Capacity may discern his Matter from mine ; And where he hath quoted One Line of mine , I have quoted Three of his . But I cannot think this the Way to Carb my Confidence ; or to Act the Modest Man , To Charge and Not Prove ; Nay , to Overlook so much Charg'd and Proved against him in my Rejoynder , That is , Vnfairly Citing us , grosly Perverting what is cited , Adding or Diminishing , as best answer'd his Ends ; overlooking my Matter & Arguments , and evading the Strength of most of what he cited ; Charging Consequences unfairly drawn upon us for our Principles , and abusing our Writings to maintain that Abuse ; which is not only prov'd in the Body of the Discourse , but summ'd up at the End of my Rejoynder , to help the Readers Memory . And so far hath the Man been from Defending himself Do●trinally , that he suffers himself to remain without all Defence against my Charges . But he hath told us very seasonably , His farther Writing is not deem'd Convenient or Satisfactory ; A great deal of Wi●dom , believe me , in the D●emers ; and a great ●hare of Submission in t●is Adversary . I confess it is no Argument to do Indiscretly a third time , because a Man hath done so twice before . Had I return'd him a Seurrilousc Frothy & Evasive Pamphlet ( like his Reply ) to his great Book , I should have blam'd my self , not him ; but I did conscientiously consider it , and bestow'd a large & grave Discourse upon it , faithfully citing , and ( I hope ) as fully enervating it . But to this he objects , & that seems the Strength of his Sheet , if there be any in it ; that is , That he made 12 Citations out of our own Books , and brought 13 Texts of ●cripture to prove ( one Point of many ) & that I took bu● 2 of each ; which granted , makes nothing against me , but proves himself Weak to say no worse : For either each of them he brought was pertinent , or not ; If not , then his urging them calls him Impertinent ; If pertinent , I answer'd the Law that saith , In the Mouth of two Witnesses , &c. for I examin'd Two , I thought of his Considerabl●st , and sound them nothing to his Purpose , but that he had aggravated his Evil by grosly Abusing our Books , to prove his Infamous Charge : Now I would fain know , if it became not J. Faldo rather to have shown how weakly I invalidated his Evidence , and prov'd him as Abuser of our Words , then to tell the World I took but Two into Consideration ; for if he be gone upon them , he is gone upon all ; for they are not a Jot more to his Purpose , if so much , as those examin'd : And I did not holy my self oblieged to answer every impertinent Line in his Book : If I skipt the Strength of his Evidence , or that those I left had something not exprest or implyed in the other , it had been proper for him to have particularly and expresly excepted against me ; all which he not doing , his Objection is frivolous , and amounts to no more then a mean Shuffle . But he tells the World , That also a whole Chapter of Apostolical Inspirations lye at my Door untoucht , and that they may judge at what rate I have answer'd his Book . Poor Man ! Is this all he can do , after he hath thought fit to give us a second Book ? Must his first be his Asylum still ? Why did he not tell T. H. and W K. so to excuse his coming to Barbican ? Is he for Disputing notwithstanding , and yet not for Writing ? It seems then that it is not deem'd Inconvenient to Dispute , but Write . Well! But why will J. Faldo drop things against himself , and , as he terms it , put Instances in my Mouth , to prove him a most Disingenuous and Impudent Person ? for did I not tell him , That what concern'd us upon the Point of Inspiration , I had treated at large else where , and there was no need of a Repetition ? Now hath he shown or attempted an Enervation of that ? Nothing less . Or that we were concern'd in that more then in his 4th Chapter ? No such Matter . Or hath he given us one Reason , why I ought to have consider'd it ? Or dare he say , the other contain'd not the Matter of it ? What more can we say to a Man of this Fore-head ? I told him of Scores of Passages given by him under our Name , he had not so much as cited Person or Book for , as well as abundance willfully abused by him , that he did cite : To all which he is as mute as if I had never accused him , or he had nothing to say in his own Vindication . Is his Recrimination ( suppose a Reason for it in its place ) a valid Answer ? Would he have thought this enough to his two Books ? How easily could we have told J. F. Thou hast abused our Religion , Books and Persons ; but would he have accepted this as a sufficient Answer or Rejoynder ? He tells the World of our Denying the Man's Nature , or Man Chirst Jesus , and brings a Company of wrested and misapplyed Sentences to vail his Abuse from the Vulgar ; who most faithfully and honestly believe it , and never speak or write undervaluingly of it : But because we press and exalt his Spiritual App●arance , or Christ as come in Spirit to the Soul for its particular Redemption , the Work of our Day ; the other being granted on all hands ; therefore men of his Leaven inser , That we make void the ourward Coming & Sufferings of Christ , and utterly deny and reject him , as he is the Man Christ Jesus . I wish for their sakes that thus traduce us , they were as far from drawing such Consequences , as our Faith is from countenancing them . Of this I have spoak so largely both in my Answer and Rejoynder disingenuously overlookt by this Adversary . But he faults me for saying , That W. Smith 's Catechism is scripturally written , &c. but never takes notice of his unworthy Assertion , nor my Answer , as he ought to have done . The Matter was this : J. Faldo making use of this Instance , to prove we preferr'd our own Writings before the Scriptures , viz. That we call'd our own Sayings & Books , The Voice of the Son of God was uttered forth by him , &c. Truths Principles ; Shield of Truth , &c. I answer'd , that those Titles were given with respect to that Divine Truth they declar'd of and testified unto ; not in Comparison with the Scriptures : That not one of those Books were destitute of Scripture ; but it either generally writ in a Scriptural Styl , or particularly defended by express Scripture cited ; therefore of necessity the Scripture must also partake with them in common of those famous Titles : And thus far have they the Preference that they are quoted on purpose to give the Truth we write of greater Credit ; What is that greater Credit then to be exactly agreeable with them ? This and more I gave for Answer ; He replieth thu : I leave it to my Reader to give a Name to this Passage , the like to which for a daring Vntruth the World hath scarcely been acquainted with ; yet the Man pretends , besides all other Graces , to * Infallibility . It is frequent with him , and that Sort of Adversaries , to fling Infallibility in our Teeth ; and here he doth it with manifest Derision , as if it was a greater Evil to be Infallible , then to Err ; but let the Reader know , that we do not so much as pretend to any such Thing , as meer Men ; for as such , Humanum est crrare ; but in our Judgment of the Things of God , so far as we receive it from the Grace of God. And if this be a Piece of Quakerism in Opposition to Christianity in J Faldo's Account , the Scripture must answer for it ; only I cannot but take Notice how he beats the Air , who either defends or opposeth any Religion upon Fallible Grounds . In many a large Libel I could produce , where there is not one Quotation of Scripture . W. Smith in his Directory for Religious Principles , consisting of above 200. Pages , hath not one Scripture quoted , not one Exhortation to read the Scriptures ; but as his main Scope , denyes and throws Dirt upon them . This was J. Faldo's Reply , I shall now contract the Substance of my Rejoynder to it . First , I did not say that there was not one Book without plenty of express Scripture , but that those Books ( whose Titles he quoted ) were either generally in a Scripture Style , or particularly defended by plenty of express Scriptures . Secondly , To confute me , he produceth one of those Books , wherein he saith , one Scripture was not quoted ; as if that was sufficient to prove , it was not written generally in a Scripture Style one half of the ●uestion ; Upon which I made him this Challenge , to give me one Book out of a Scripture style , that is not Controversial , or any Controversial Book without express Scripture cited : If he could not , his vain Insulte should fall upon his own Head. In this particular , though he has ove lookt all the rest of my Discourse in Defence of our Faith , Writings and Principles , he undertakes me in his pretended Curb to my Confidence , in these words , To accept W. P 's Challenge is no bold thing ; and to shew his unparallel'd . Falsehood and Confidence , I shall need to give you but a few Instances out of W. Smith's Catechism and Primer . But J. Faldo , Three instances , few enough to be sure , prove 200 Pages generally unscriptural , the Terms of the Question ? Methinks this shews more Confidence then a Man that undertakes to Curb another Man's Confidence ought to have : but all J. Faldo's sayings are to be construed cum grano salis . But to the first Instance . Child . I would know Father , how it is concerning those things call ' Ordinances , as Baptism , Bread and Wine , which are much used in their Worship ? Father . Why Child , as to those things , they rose from the Pope's Invention — And then the Priest gives it to the People , and tells them that it is the Blood of Christ shed for them , when it is Wine , and not Blood , Smith's Catechism , pag. 39. I see nothing unscriptural in either . Question or Answer ; unless J. Faldo quibbles upon the Pope . 'T is true , he rose not till several hundred years after the Scriptures were written ; but if there be a use of those things call'd Sacraments , invented by the Pope , after another manner then they were ever practised by the ancient Christians , which is undeniable with J. Faldo , and that scuh an unscriptural use may be called an Invention , and that the Pope be a Man , ●ea , the Man of Sin , as also J. Faldo , I suppose , and many more do conceive , and all this Scripturally ; then , I hope , it cannot with any sober Pretence be deny'd but that W. S's Answer is very Scriptu●●l . But what makes this great Pretender to Truth and Modesty decline taking any notice of that Charge I publisht against him upon occasion of his most gross Abuse of W. Smith upon these words ? who would needs have it , that W. Smith calls the Lord's Supper the Pope's Invention , when I expresly proved out of the same place , that W. Smith intended it of the present Practice of them , and not of any primitive Institution ? W. Smith's words are these : The whole Practice of those things as THEY USE them , had their Institution by the Pope , and were never SO ordained of Christ ; for he did not ordain Sprinkling of Water in a Child's face , or to make a Sign of a Cross in his forehead , nor God-fathers and God-mothers to undertake for it ; neither did he ordain Bread and VVine to be SO ( or after that Manner ) used and received . If this be to make Baptism and the Supper Popish , what becomes of his Antipaedobaptists and all Protestants , that maintain the same respectively ? But most evident it is , VV. Smith intended not that Baptism and Supper used by the Ancient Christians ; but most true it is , that J. Faldo made VV. Smith to intend so . I leave the Reader to give a Name to this Carriage ; the like to which for a Daring Perversion I yet know nobody guilty of , J. Faldo and T. Hicks excepted . Now for the next Instance brought to prove our Books unscripturally written . Child , Then the Scriptures are to be owned and believed as a true Testimony of what the Saints were made Partakers of in that Day . Father , Yes , they are to be owned and believed , and they that do not so they are to be denyed . An admirable Confession to the Scriptures : Is this the way to prove W. Smith's Book unscripturally written ? That there is not an Exhortation to read the Scriptures , and that the whole scope of it is , to throw Dirt upon them , yea , to deny them , though J. Faldo himself tells us , that W. Smith , teacheth that those ought to be denyed that do not own them ; but the Truth is , J. Faldo's Proofs against the Quakers are like Hebrew to be read backwards ; He hath a Faculty beyond the common rate of men , to facilitate his own Confutation . But he makes W. Smith further to Answer . Thou must take heed Child , of giving more unto the Scriptures , then unto them belongs , lest in so doing thou diminishest from the Glory of Christ . What of all this ? May not People Idolize , as well as undervalue the Scriptures ? Ought they to be put in the room of Christ ? Or is it ill done , to exhort People to prefer Christ before the Scriptures ? How can J. Faldo call this part of W. Smith's Answer Unscriptural , and yet believe those words of Christ be any part of Scripture ? Search ( or rather , ye search ) the Scriptures , for in them ye think ye have Eternal Life , & they are they which testifie of me , & ye will not come unto me that ye might have Life , Joh. 5. 39 , 40. I am the Way , the Truth and the Life , Joh. 14. 6. Christ himself here teacheth us , to give him the Preference ; and implicitely rebuketh the Jews from expecting Eternal Life in the Scriptures rather then in Him , who is the Way , the Truth and the Life . His last Instance is this : Child , I am sensible that there is something in my Conscience that lets me see my ●ecret Thoughts , & the Intents of my Heart ; but I have not known what it hath been , nor hitherto have much regarded it . Father , That is the true Light , &c. Child , But if I should turn to it , and obey it when it reproveth me for Sin , is there Power in it to save me from Sin , and to deliver me from Iniquity ? Father , Yes , Child ; All Power in Heaven and Earth is in it , &c. Now judge Reader , saith J. F. If all these things are contain'd in the Scripture . But I will help the Reader to judge rightly in this matter ; and question not if by Containing he means as he ought , the Substance of such Answers , and not that they are so laid down , to prove them , to be according to Scripture ; and therefore Scriptural . I st , That it is God , who searcheth the Heart , tryeth the Reins , and telleth unto Man his Thoughts , the Prophet affirms ; and I know no body that pretends to Christianity , denyeth it . 2. The Apostle asserts , That which may be known of God is manifest men ; for God hath shown it unto them , Rom. 1. 19. 3. That it was the Apostolical Message , That God is Light , 1 Joh. 1. 5. 4. That whatsoever doth make manifest is Light , Ephes . 5 13. 5. That Christ , who is God over all , blessed forever , is that True Light , which ( thus ) enlightneth every man. 6. That all Power in Heaven and in Earth belongs to Christ , the true Light. Now unless he denyes , Christ to be God , or Christ to be Light , or , that He , the true Light , so searcheth , &c. or that all Power in Heaven and Earth belongs to Him it will naturally follow , that to say , All Power in Heaven and in Earth belongs to God , Christ or the Light of the World , is Equivalent : For we do not assert , as some Ignorantly , and some Malitiously have printed & reported , That all Power in Heaven & Earth is in the Ma●ifestation ; but in him that g●ves the Manifestation . I have taken great Care with several others , to explain our Belief in this matter , if possible , to prevent such Evil-minded Men as this Adversary , from making so Ill and Use of our Innocent Expressions , and giving their own monstrous Consequences for our Scriptural Principles . Thus much to evidence to my Reader , how groundlesly J. F. flung Vnparall●l'd Falshood and Confidence upon me for asserting , that those Books before mention'd were generally written in a Scripture Style ; and with what Weakness he hath endeavour'd to disprove me . I shall among a multitude of Instances that might be given , produce 10. to show to my Reader with what Truth those Imputations belong to J. Faldo , and how exactly he character'd himself when he bestow'd that Reflection upon me . 1. J. Faldo affirms that W. Smith not only quoted never a Scripture & writ unscripturally , but that he had not one Exhortation to read the Scriptures , nay , that the main Design of the Book was to deny them , and throw Dirt upon them ; yet J. F. thus cites him concerning the Scriptures : Child , Then the S●riptures are to be own'd and believed , &c. Father , Yes , they are to he OWN'D & BELIEV'D , and they that do not so are to be DENIED . To this let me add another notable Passage in the same Discourse , cited by me in that very Page of my Rejoynder , where my Challenge lay ( which he thought no Boldness to accept ) though he was so modest , as not to be so bold with this Passage . Quest . Of what Service are the Scriptures as they are given forth and recorded without ? Answ . MUCH EVERY WAY unto those than have receiv'd the same Spirit from whom they were given forth ; for unto such they are PROFITABLE , and MAKE WISE unto Salvation ; and are unto them of Service , for INSTRUCTION , EDIFICATION & COMFORT , Rejoynd . pag. 61. Is there no Exhortation lodg'd in these words ? And is this to Deny or throw Dirt upon the Scriptures ? If any shall object W. Smith's making the Spirit necessary to the profitable Reading of the Scriptures , let them go to W. Tindal , J. Bradford , Bp. Jewel , J. Philpot , Luther , Calvin , Peter Martyr and others , they will preach them the same Doctrine ; which I have observ'd in my Rejoynder , and may easily be found in my Catalogue of Authors . 2. My second Instance shall be this , That he makes W. Smith call the Scriptures Traditions of Men , Earthly Root , Darkness , Confusion , Corruption ; All out of the Light and Power of God ; which he only asscrib'd to degenerated men , their Worship , Imaginations and Traditions . See Quakerism no Christianity , pag. 117 , 119. Vind. p. 41 , 45. My Rejoynder from pag. 141. to 157. 3. That the Quakers understand by Knowledge according to the Flesh , the Vse of the Vnderstanding , though santified , Qu. no Chr. pag. 41. Vind. p. 24 , 25 , My Answer . p. 35. Rejoynd . p. 424. 4. That I. Penington should call Visible Worship as sub , the City of Abomintion , Vind. p. 50. Rejoynd . l. 194 , 195. 5. That by Traditions of Men , we understand the Scripture , or written Word , Qu. no. Chr. part 3. p. 86. My Answer , pag. 250. 6. That the Quakers mean by the Vail that is over People , their Belief of the Man Christ Jesus born of the Virgin Mary to be now existing in Heaven , Ibid. p. 87. Vind. p. 93. My Answer , pag. 251 , 252. Rejoynd . pag. 395 , 396. 7. I take occasion to censure mens adding their Comments and Glosses fram'd from Study TO any part of the Scripture ; and J. Faldo cites me , as complaining of such as frame them from the Study OF the Scriptures ; as if Studying OF the Scriptures , and mens Adding their own Glosses TO the Scriptures , were one and the some thing , Vind. pag. 42 , 43. My Rejoynd . p. 159. 8. From E. Burrough's making the Light of Christ within to be one in Nature with the Spirit of Christ ; J. Faldo infers , That the Quakers hold the Soul to be God , as if that had been said of the Soul which was said to the Light of Christ shining in the Soul , or that they were Synonymous , Vind. from p. 75. to 87. Rejoyndr , p. 348 , 349 , 350. 9. Because E. B. rejected that Carnal Notion that confines the Infinite , Omnipresent God to a Residence only above the Stars , he makes no Difficulty of inferring that we deny the Manhood of Christ Jesus . As most absurd as base ! Q. no C. p. 9 , 10. My Answer , p. 14. Vind , p. 9. Rejoynd . p. 420. 10. From our affirming that such a kind of Reading of Scripture as the Pharisees used , and to those Ends , makes men harder to be wrought upon to true Conversion then the Heathen , J. Faldo infers , that reading the Scriptures , and getting Knowledge thence puts Men into a worse Condition then the Heathen ; and that there 's scarcely anything more Dangerous then reading the Scriptures : Yea , he accuseth us of Charging the Miscarriages of Mens Souls on the Knowledge the Scripture by God's Blessing both convey , Vind. p. 21 , 37. Rejoynd . p. 126 , 127 , 425. Thus much , and I wish here had been no occasion for this , to evidence the false and unworthy Practice of J. Faldo against the Writings and Sayings of our Friends , in order to compass his Designes I shall now give some touch upon his Confidence . since he hath intituled me to an unparallel'd share , and counts himself the fit Person to Curb me for it . J. Faldo began with us in a great Book called Quakerism No Christianity ; I answered him in a Book , intitled Quakerism a New Nickname for Old Christianity ; against this he put forth his Vindication , unto which I made my Rejoynder consisting of TWENTY THREE CHAPTERS , in which I vindicated our Principles , striping them of those frightful Vizards and hateful Disguises he put upon them , confirm'd them by many Scriptures and Reasons , and to compleat our Defence , produc'd iin favor of the whole above TWO HUNDRED TESTIMONIES out of both ancient and modern Authors . Besides all this I faulted his Conduct and Behaviour in this Controversie , in above FOUR HUNDRED PARTICULARS , and that under distinct Sections , most of which were not less unworthy of a good Christian , yea , an honest Heathen , I will say , of any fair Controvertist , then the Ten I just now mention'd . Notwithstanding this great Obligation upon him , either to answer my Book , or ente Muter to any farther Proceed in this Debate ; in my Absence at the first Barbican Meeting , be●ore a great Concurse of People , after T. Hicks had won the Goal by running Alone , the Man , as one in Love with such Romance-Trophys , starts up like some Herald at Arms , bids Defiance to the Quakers and their Religion , gives forth his Challenge to W. Penn , to dispute him , I that he would ; and instead of his Glove , flung a Paper to bind it , which when all came to all , was but some of the Contents of his first Book twice largely answered ; and because no farther Notice was taken of this Giant , partly by not receiving his Paper so soon as might expect , and partly by reason of these other Contests that claim Precedency ; That he might not be thought NoBody , when so many strove to be Some-Body against us , he prints it , without all consideration had to my Rejoynder , or so much as an Apology for his Silence to it , which at least had become a Modest Person to give : After all this can any man think J. Faldo Bashful , or one that is so out of Love with Confidence in himself , as that he is fit to Curb it in others ? Me thinks he should not believe that repetitious Farthing or Half-penny Paper feat enough toi excuse him ; or so sufficient to acquit him of old Debts , as that without any Breach of Modesty or common Honesty , he might encrease his former Score by fresh Charges : It is but reasonable that he should make good what he hath done first ; and not , that we should gratifie every importinent , tautological Humor of J. F. But what saith John Faldo , to this part of my Answer to his Challenge ? viz. But that I may acquit my self of that Duty incumbent on me for the Truth , I do hereby signifie , That in as much as the Controversie depending between T. Hicks , &c. and us , takes in the most of the particulars of his Charge , we freely consent , that he should come in with them for a Share as Confederate in the same work , and use his utmost Abilities to maintain his Accusations ; And , if in any thing his Charge is singular , we shall be ready to hear and fairly debate it at the same Meeting or Meetings , to avoid fresh and unnessary Contests , as much as justly may be . To this he thus Replieth : 1. I must fall into a Confederacy which the Antipaedo-baptists , in the same Work : Hold a little Mr. Penn ! If I have my Option , I must deal with you singly ; More confuse rather then assist : But it seems I must be wholely at your Appointment ; for , although you had consented that in your Contest about Mr. Hicks's Dialogues there should four of each Party have Liberty to speak ; yet I no sooner began to oppose you ( being desired to be one of the four ) but you told me , you were not to dispute with me , but Mr. Hicks , and call'd to T. Hicks , and were follow'd by the Quakers Clamours of Hicks , Hicks , which answer'd your End , and forc'd my Silence . Contradiction and Falshood make up this Paragraph . Was he not of the Confederacy , when he tells us himself , that he was not only a Party with them , but One of the four pitcht upon to mannage their Cause ? But if he have his Option , he must deal with me singly . It is time for him indeed , who hath been a double-dealing so long : But certainly , if the man were not more then ordinarily fond of hearing himself talk , or extravagantly ambitious of a single Crown , he would be contented with a Partner ; but this Option holds no Concord with his Adoption into the Confederacy : He hath begun already as one of the four , what hinders that he should not continue so ? But he thinks that more then one confounds rather then assists : If so , what made T. Hicks , have three to help him ? And why did J. Faldo attempt it ? Certainly he did not design to confound T. Hicks . To all this Confusion of his let me add his Vntruth : He chargeth me with telling him at the Barbican-Meeting when he began to speak , I was not there to dispute with him , which is false to a Title ; Either his Ears were as infirm , as his Voice was low , or else he saith this to serve his present occasion : however , I said no such thing ; but understanding it to be him that spoak from some better acquainted with his * person , I answered , Thus the Noise of the Multitude was so great , We could not hear what he said ; Though had I given that Answer he made for me , I think it had been very reasonable , since he never told us , That he was One of the four ; besides , more then that fixt Number had spoaken before him . That the Quakers should clamour , Hicks , Hicks , to answer my End , and force his Silence , is as true as the rest ; It was the Multitude that frequently and importunately cryed , Hicks , Hicks , Hicks ; as looking upon it unreasonable that one who had shown himself so arch in abusing us , should pretend such Inability to answer our Charge , as that other Folks must mostly mannage his Affair . But that to silence him was to answer my End , is both to tell A — and proclaim the good Opinion he has of himself , as if it stood our Cause so much upon , to have him silent , and T. Hicks speak , Poor T. Hicks ! this was not kindly done of J. F. but perhaps he meant it of his better Elocution and Skill in stating the Question , recommended to us in his Curb to my Confidence : Modest Man that he would be thought ! But what saith he to this part of my fair Offer , That if in any thing his Charge be singular , we should be ready to debate it at the same Meeting or Meetings with the Baptists , to avoid Vnnecessary Contests ; since most of the Particulars of his Charge are taken in by the Controversie depending between us and the Baptists : It is not only an Vntruth ( sayes J. F. ) but a meer Shift ; for in the One and Twenty Proposals to be debated by them , there is not one of the Particulars of my Charge : Besides in Position to be disputed on , not only the Matter , but the Form , and each Term is of great Consideration . Which is as much as to say , if I understand J. Faldo's Meaning , that after we have disputed the Matter of the same Questions with T. H. and his Three Assistants , they must be disputed over again upon J. Faldo's new Model , which one Nice and Humorsom Impertinency shall make Disputes both Endless and Useless : Let him bestow his Skill upon T. Hicks , his Cause wants it , and do their utmost together . But he would fasten an Untruth upon me , for saying , that most of the Particulars of his Charge are taken into that Controversie , affirming , That in our One and Twenty Proposals there was not one of the Particulars of his Charge ; To which I need say no more but this , The Charge we exhibited against T. Hicks contain'd so many particular Charges : I grant they related to Matter of Fact , and in that sense the Particulars of J. Faldo's Charge against us , were not explicitly there ; yet they that please to read what follows the One and Twenty Particulars , as given in to the Baptists , exhibited and read at Barbican , and since printed in our first Account , they will find that we offer after a full Consideration and Determination upon the foresaid Particulars , to come to Doctrinal Points , which are chiefly in Controversie between us and them upon T. Hicks 's Three Dialogues ; and I hope J. Faldo is not grown quite so desperate as to deny that most , if not all the Particulars of his Charge , fall in with T. Hicks's Attempts against us , and that materially too . I have heard as if such a Confession was one part of his Speech at the first Barbican-Meeting : However , if he denyes their Endeavours to have been so harmonious , I offer to prove them so ; but could I not do it , yet I made Provision for him , wherein his Case is singular . Besides , I desire the Reader to take notice , I did not say , the Particulars of J. Faldo's Charge were exprest in the Catalogue of our Charge of Matter of Fact against T. Hicks , but that they fell in with the Controversie , which word Controversie takes in both Fact and Doctrine : And since he could fall in with T. Hicks upon Matter of Fact at Barbican , wherein he was not concerned there can be no just Pretence for him to refuse falling in with T. H. in Matter of Doctrine , wherein he is concerned : So that , in short , I am neither guilty of Vntruth . who never said , that most of the Particulars of his Charge were concerned in the One and Twenty Particulars of Fact exhibited against T. H. but in the Controversie , which is most true ; nor yet of Shis●●ng , in referring him to our Meeting with T. Hicks , since I therein only offer what his own Words and Practice countenance me in especially , since I further added ( as before said ) That if in any thing his Charge was singular from that Controversie , we should be ready to hear and fairly debate at the same Meeting , to avoid fresh and unnecessary Contests . One would think this were pretty fair to a Man under J. Faldo's Circumstances with us . I leave the Reader to say where the Shift and the Vntruth lieth . Only let me add Two Passages more , that will not a little help him to make a true Judgmenr of the Man. The one is his telling the World , That by my Manuscript Letter to him , I do in effect unsay all again , that I said of accepting his Challenge in my Printed Answer , and yet neither prints the Letter , though but short , nor that Passage he fastens his Consequence upon . It s true , I told him , that it was our present Resolution to stick to the Matter of Fact against T. H. and so much he prints ; but what is that to the Purpose ? Will any scuh Passage bear an Ergo , W. Penn unsaith all he said of Accepting the Challenge , & c ? Or , therefore W. Penn will never proceed to Matter of Doctrine , because he first resolves to stick to Matter of Fact , the Method agreed upon ? The other Passage is this : For my part , though I shall not refuse any Opportunity offered to defend the Christian Religion from its Adversaries ; yet I expect that Mr. Penn shall undertake to defend the Quakers ( and himself especially ) from my Charge , intire as it is exhibited , and until then I shall look on him as declining it . At what rate I decline a Meeting , and how well J. Faldo , proves it , impartial men may judge : But one would think by what he saith , as if he were another Tertullian , and the Quakers a pack of obstinate Heathens , He is unfit to defend Christianity , whose Works prove he doth not understand it , unless the Jew outward with all his Envy , be the Jew inward ; or a froward Pharisee , a good Christian : No , No. J. Faldo we affirm hath first charged impious Errors upon us , and then abused our Writings to countenance them with ; And though this be largely and effectually discovered in not only my Answer ( at which he let fly a squibbing Reply ) but in my Rejoynder too ( being a more particular Resumption of the whole Controversie , and unto which he never yet made any Return ) we see he hath Forehead enough to insinuate as if the Quakers still remained undefended . This is the man that undertakes to Cure my Confidenct , who begs so unreasonably and importunately , and doth as good as threaten , if I refuse his Terms ; and which aggravates the Matter , he would have People believe , that I shift defending the Quakers , whilst he is yet so manifest a Debtor to our Defences . Well , but for all this , that it may sufficiently appear we neither did not do decline a Meeting with him ; Let it be observed , 1st , That I gave him timely Notice of our Wheeler street-Meeting , with an Invitation to be there , and went more in Expectation of him then T. Hicks , from a Report that T. H. would not , but that John Faldo intended to be present , though both thought fit to be absent . 2dly , If he yet thinks it convenient to imbrace that ●ffer already made , viz. To be one of the four , a Place he confesseth to have accepted at the Barbican-Meeting , even about another man's Fact. Or Lastly , If through the Apprehension he hath of T. H's ill Elocution , and great Conceit he hath of his own Oratory , with his better Skill at Forming and Terming the Question , he can prevail with the Baptists , to be their Mouth in the present Controversie , we shall through God's Assistance be ready to embrace any convenient Time and Place for a free and publick Meeting . And that he may not think himself unconcerned in this Proposal , nor want any Encouragement we can well give him to accept it , I do hereby offer at such a Meeting or Meetings , first , To prove him as well as T. Hicks , an Abuser of us and our Writings by Forgery and Perversion ; And next , to maintain those Doctrines which are indeed believed and asserted by us , to be Scriptural , and therefore Christian . And if this will not please him , I shall not think my self oblieged to gratifie every nice and critical Humor he is troubled with ; but leave him to tire himself with the Pain of his own manifest and merited Disquiet : Though my Soul beseecheth Almighty God , if it please him , to turn him and the Hearts of our Enemies , that they may see how much they wound Christianity , in pretending to defend it , and grieve that Holy Spirit which would lead them into Holiness , Meekness , Patience and Love , by these Tempestuous Assaults upon the Faith , Practice and Persons of their Harmless Neighbours . 12th 9th Mon. 1674. I am a Real Friend in the Vniversal Principle of God to all men , and therein seek Peace with all men , William Penn. THE END . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A54205-e10 I never saw him before ; and he asserts in his this printed Paper , that he never saw me till the Barbican Meeting , yet several Moueths before in his printed Vindication he saith , he had spoaken with me ▪