A shield of defence against the arrovves of schisme shot abroad by Iean de L'escluse in his advertisment against Mr. Brightman Here vnto is prefixed a declaration touching a booke intituled, The profane schisme of the Brovvnists. By Iohn Fovvler. Clement Saunders. Robert Bulvvarde. Fowler, John, Brownist. 1612 Approx. 129 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 23 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2008-09 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A01099 STC 11212 ESTC S102487 99838270 99838270 2643 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A01099) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 2643) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1475-1640 ; 989:10) A shield of defence against the arrovves of schisme shot abroad by Iean de L'escluse in his advertisment against Mr. Brightman Here vnto is prefixed a declaration touching a booke intituled, The profane schisme of the Brovvnists. By Iohn Fovvler. Clement Saunders. Robert Bulvvarde. Fowler, John, Brownist. Saunders, Clement. aut Bulwarde, Robert. aut 3 leaves, 4-40, [1] p. By Henry Laurenson dvvelling vpon the vvater at the signe of the vvriting booke, Printed at Amsterdam : 1612. A reply to "An advertisement to everie godly reader of Mr. Thomas Brithsman his book" by Jean de L'Écluse, and a clarification of "The prophane schisme of the Brownists" by Christopher Lawne and the authors of the present work. From p. 4 on, even numbers are on the rectos. Reproduction of the original in Cambridge University Library. 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Brownists -- Controversial literature. 2006-12 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2006-12 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2007-06 Elspeth Healey Sampled and proofread 2007-06 Elspeth Healey Text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A SHIELD OF DEFENCE AGAINST THE ARROVVES OF SCHISME Shot abroad by Iean de L'escluse in his advertisment against Mr. BRIGHTMAN . Here vnto is prefixed a declaration touching a booke intituled , The profane schisme of the Brovvnistes . By Iohn Fovvler . Clement Saunders . Robert Bulvvarde . Luk. 12. vers . 2. For there is nothing covered , that shall not be Revealed , neither hid , that shall not be knovvne . Printed at Amsterdam by Henry Laurenson Dvvelling vpon the vvater at the signe of the vvriting booke . 1612. A declaration touching a booke lately printed & entituled , The Profane schesme of the Brovvnistes . CHristian reader , there vvas of late a booke published in London vnder this title , The profane schisme of the Brounistes ; Such a booke indeed vve sent by one of vs to be printed there , but in the publishing thereof great iniury hath bene done vnto vs , & chiefely three vvayes , by addition , by detraction & by alteration of the same : For the first , besides the addition of sundry harsh vvordes & phrases of heresies , blasphemies , diabolus , horrible crimes & c. in such place vvhere they vvere not vsed by vs , vvhich yet according to the doctrine of the Brovvnistes themselves may iustly be applyed vnto them ; besides the addition in the title of the booke vvhich is doubly encreased by the publisher thereof ; beside the addition of the other titles of the severall chapters vvith a nevv table thereof added in stead of that vvhich vve had made ; besides sundry other such additions , there be also added some thinges directly contrary to our meaning & such as never came into our heads , as namely those vvordes in the end of the preface , as also to vvarne all such as haue bene the occasion of those heresies & schismes to conforme themselues to the church of God , that these caterpillars may no more rise out of them . And although vve be & c. By those vvordes the reader might conceive as though vve affirmed those ministers vvhich do refuse subscription & conformity vnto the prelacy & superstitious ceremonies vsed in the church of England , to have bene the occasion of Brovvnisme & guilty of that schisme &c. But the truth is othervvise , there vvere no such vvordes vvritten in the booke vvhich vve sent to be printed , but they are foysted in & obtruded vpon vs by some falsifyer vvithout our knovvledge or consent , Our iudgement is that the tyranny of Lord BBs & their impositions are a stumbling block vnto many that are vveake vvhich do thereby take occasiō to fall from the church & to runne into schisme . VVe assure our selves that if there vvere in the church of England such a reformatiō of the prelacy & ceremonies as is desired by the ministers there & is also obteyned in other reformed churches , there vvould not thē be such a defection vnto Brovvnisme as novv the re is . VVe knovv indeed that the Brounistes do ioyne vvith the prelates in vpbrayding the ministers vvith this thing & vvould seeme to build their separation vpon the testimony of the ministers , as appeareth by this booke of Delescluse , vvhere he labours to conclude their separation from certaine speeches of Mr. Brightman testifying against the corruptions of the church of England , but hovv vniustly & absurdly he hath done the same vve hope it vvil evidently appeare by this refutation follvving . Secondly , there is in summe left out the greatest part of the booke vvhich vve sent to be printed , yea in exact account there is not a fourth part there of that is printed : In speciall there is not a third part of the preface printed vvherein our reasons for the maner of publishing that booke are conteyned ; there is left out a large ansvver vnto a narratiō vvrittē by Mr. Iohnson touching an offer of conference that vvas made vnto him ; likevvise the ansvver vnto the groundes of scripture alledged by M. Iohnson in in defence of separation is left out ; Divers testimonies of Dutch & french ministers against thē be omitted , vvith other vvritinges of Iohn Iohnson & George Iohnson that should have bene printed : The greatest part of the vilest slanders of the Brounistes are left out : The greatest number of the chapters by far is omitted ; that vvhich should have bene the tenth chapter is made the first nine of the first being altogether omitted , besides sundry other in the middes of the booke ; & of those chapters that are there , no one of thē is fully set doune , & in some of thē more thē half the matter omitted : Divers strāge matters are noted in the booke , but the occasiō there of , the profes thereof vvith the ansvver vnto the vaine cavilles & shiftes of the Brounistes about the same are omitted , & in respect of these omissiōs divers thinges so abruptly set dovvne may seeme more harsh & also more incredible vnto the reader ; so that hereby it may easily appeare hovv vve are iniuried by vnreasonable omissions as vvell as by vniust additions . Thirdly , for the method & order of setting dovvne these thinges that are printed , there is great alteratiō therein also : Thinges spokē vpō one occasiō are related vpon an other , & not in their due place ; The speeches of one mā are so set doune as if they had bene spokē by an other ; The speeches of divers men are peeced togather as if they had bene spokē by one & the same person . In these & such like chāges both vve & those vvhose testimonies are alledged by vs have receyved some further iniurye . Besides these thinges there be also as it appeareth many literall faults in the misprinting of sundry vvordes vvhich do much corrupt the sense of sundry thinges in the booke . And though thus many & great iniuries be done vnto vs yet do vvee not hitherto fully vnderstād by vvhō they are done : Onely this vve vnderstād by a letter sēt frō Chr. Lavvne vvho vvas ētrusted vvhich this busines , that the according to the order in such like cases seeking vnto such as vvere appoynted for the allovvāce of bookes to be printed , & leaving it in the hāds of a certaine chaplaine of the Archb to get it read over & vievved ūtill he himself might returne out of the coūtry into vvhich he vvas thē going dovvne before he could come vp to Lōdō againe he foūd the booke already printed cōtrary to his expectatiō , & in the printing thereof so mangled & defaced as is above specifyed . And hovvsoever vve do novv disclayme this booke above mentioned as none of ours being thus corruptly printed vvith such additions , omissions & alterations , yet do vve still acknovvledge that all the particular matters of fact recorded against the the Brvvonistes in that booke are such tiges as vvere takē out of our vvriting ▪ & for proofe thereof vve are able & ready to produce our testimony & vvitnesse as occasion shall requi●e ; The most of thē are testifyed & cōfessed by thēselves & the most heynous thinges evē vnder their ovvne hād vvriting ; & the rest are such thīges as either vve our selves or others vvil vvitnesse . And therfore though vve complaine Brovvnistes insult there vpon ; though vve be vvronged , yet are not they cleared from the matters there noted vvhich are still in force against them . Our desire & our purpose is hereafter as occasion , opportuinty & meanes shal be offred more fully to manifest their Profane schisme by the publishing of those thinges vvhich formerly have bene omitted , & in the meane time vve do here present vnto the reader a fevv observations vpon the advertisement of Iean Delescluse vvhich he hath vvritten against Mr. Brightman & against the communion of saintes ; His perverse collections for separation dravvne from Mr. Brightman his Testimony , vve have here shevved to be vaine & vvicked . The principles of Brovvnisme vvhich he hath briefely alledged are here breefely ansvverd , yet so as that the vanity & errour of their separation may be easily discerned hereby : This labour vve have vndertaken cheefely for the comfort & helpe of those vveake brethren , vvho either do not sufficiently vnderstād the iniquity of this errour of the Brounistes or els do not duely consider the danger of this schisme vvhich as it dayly breakes it self in pieces , so vvould it also break , ruinate & overthrovv all the churches that should admit & receyve the same . vvhen corruptions do encrease & are maynteyned , let the godly vvitnesse against the same , but let them not fret vnto separation , & so shall they vvalke vvith Christe in vvhite , Reu. 3. 4. An ansvver vnto the advertisement of Iean Delescluse concerning Mr. Brightman vpon the Apocalyps . 1. WHereas in his title he pretendes to advertise the godly reader , whom afterward in his Epistle he calles Gentle reader and Christian reader , marke how this man doth mocke his reader ; for by his profession of Brownisme he holdes all the membres of the church of England to be no visible Christians , to be without true faith & without godlines , even eve-ry one as they are publique professours of the gospel in that church & yet here in this flattering title of his English booke he dissembles notably as though he would honour & record their godlines ; And thus in the very forehead of his booke , his hypocrisy beginnes to shew it self . 2. VVHereas in his title he takes on him to advertise every godly reader of Mr. Tho. Brightmā his booke , how absurd & senselesse is it ? There be many godly readers of Mr. Brightmās booke which vnderstād no English at al , seing it is extant in Latine , & yet he writes in English to advertise every one of them . 3. IN the same place he alledgeth against the church of England that saying of the Prophet 1. Kim 18. 21. How long halt ye betweene two opinions ? If the lord be God follow him , but if Baal be he then go after him . This is vniustly applied against them who are assured of their lawfull communion with that church ; but this sentence or the like may much more fitly be alledged against the divided & distracted Brownistes , who halt betweene two opinions , & betweene two communions , some halting after the Franciscane order , sone limping after the Ainsworthian & popular order , some hanging in doubt betwixt both opinions , so that they dare not ioyne to either of them , but walk alone . 4. THe first cause which mooved him to put forth this writing in defence of the separatiō , he sets downe in these wordes : * First the glory of my God etc. what meanes he by this speech of his God , in saying , the glory of my God ? Hath he and his flock a speciall God of his owne more then other churches of Christe ? It is true indeed that David & other faithful servants of God do often with the voyce of faith vse to speak of God in this manner , my king and my God as Ps . 84. 3. but yet if we looke a litle further into the profession of the Brownistes we may easily imagine some other cause of their speaking on this manner : for whereas R. R. in his prophecying among the prophets of Mr. Anisworthes company testifyed against their separation & iustifyed the church of England to be a true church , being for this vniustly excommunicate of that company it was as vniustly defended by Mr. Ainsworth , who layd this groud of his excommunicatiō frō Deu. 13. 1. 2. &c. that he had sought to turne thē away frō the Lord their God & had perswaded them to go after other Gods and to serve thē , & all this onely for perswading that it was lawfull to heare a sermō in the church of Engl. to pray with thē &c : In this proceeding they declare that they hold the church of Engl. to be withovt the true God in that they cōdemne those that ioyne with the same to turne away frō the Lord their God & to go after other God● and therfore no marvel if according to this opinion they speak of their special God , intending an other God whom we know not . This may yet further appeare in the speech of Delecluse who being blamed for his schisme from the french church hath here vpon cōdemned that reformed church as having Christe to be neither their King , priest nor Prophet : And if they be without Christe then are they without true God , Ioh. 2. Epist . vers . 9. and Ioh. 17. 3. According to these speeches it is not strange nor inconsequent that he should meane his speciall God in the forenamed phrase . Iemar the monstro●s Arrian pretending that we erre about the nature of Christe doth blasphemously affirme that our God is no better then the planke vnder his foote , Delescluse the inordinate Brownist pretending that Christe is not our king doth hereby sacrilegiously both deprive Christe , of his people & his people of their God , their saviour & their mediatour : And thus while he pretendes the glory of his God , he treades vnder his feete the glory of that everlasting God , who is the God & king of all the reformed churches round about . 5. AGaine in his declaratiō of this first moving cause that made him to publish this treati●e in defence of Brownisme , he alledgeth divers scriptures which teach that the people of God ought to be holy as the Lord is holy , as namely , Levit. 19. 2. 1. Pet. 1. 5. 16. But what meanes he by this ? Can not the people of God be holy & sanctifyed vnlesse they separate from the churches as the Brownistes doe ? or can they not give glory vnto God without their separation ? we see the contrary throughout the scriptures ; the , * holy Prophets , the holy Apostles , and Iesus Christe that holy one of God did keepe a holy communion among open obstinate sinners and glorified God thereby and this also in a church that was far more corrupt than that reformed church from which this Delescluse hath schismed and runne away ▪ 6. VNto his other allegation , that all those that call vpon the name of Christe should depart from iniquitye , 2. Tim. 2. 19. It may also be answered as the former that the most holy servants of God , most zealous of his glory have kept communion which open sinners as offensiue as 〈…〉 the church of England , & yet departed from iniquity : It is a great 〈◊〉 in schismatiques that cannot distinguish betwixt departing from iniquity and departing from a church where iniquity is tolerated . Christe 〈…〉 iniquity of the Pharisees and Sadducees and and yet departed 〈…〉 fellowship of that church , where in they remayned . 7. THe second reason which he alledges for his writing of this treatise is the fervent desire which ( he sayth ) he hath of the salvation of mens soules and the gayning of them vnto God , If this be so ( as he boasteth ) we do prayse and commend him for it , but yet if he had bene as sober and modest as he is fervent , he would not have bene so forward to prayse his owne fervency , in that we commend him not , nor yet in this , that he seemes to seeke the salvation of mens soules by leading them into his schisme or separation . 8. IN the declaration of this second reason he telles vs that the meanes of saying soules is to shew vnto the their erring from the truth and from going astray out of the way , Iam. 5. 19. 20. : But how vnfit a man is Iean delescluse for such a purpose ? Do not all the Brownistes generally know and consider how prone this man is to runne into errour and to go astray out of the way before many others ? Among all their Prophets is there any which in the exercise of prophecy have so often bene corrected for errour as this man ? His manner is indeed to be fervent and hote , but in his heate so rash and inconsiderate that often he vtters erroneous thinges and often by Mr. Iohnson and Daniel studly hath he bene reproved and convicted of the same . He that hath so often receyved open shame and rebuke for his errour is not so meete a man to become the censurer of so learned and iudicious a writer as Mr. Brightman is generally acknowledged to be . 9. THe third reason which he alledgeth for the publishing of this treatise , is in respect of him self , having had a hand both in the translating and printing of Mr. Britghtman his booke etc. But of this he may speake with shame enough in respect of his vnfaithfull dealing herein : for being appoynted by his maisters that set him on worke to print this booke & that without any leave to comment vpon it or to adde his censures , what doth this coosening companion but goes & causeth his gloses to be printed in the margent of this booke ? He there lets downe in opposition vnto Mr. Brightman , his contradictions of him , his interrogations , his exclamations against him O England etc. O Brightman etc. Yea his citations of him vnto indgement , let God and his angelles and all the world indge etc. And thus without the consent or license of those that employed him in their busines , he defaces & disgraceth the work committed vnto him , offendeth his maisters , wronges the reader , & iniurieth the authour of the books who now sleepeth in peace with the Lord : But when this his deceit was found out , those that were at cost & charges for the printing of this booke did then call him to account for this his bad daaling & in fine compelled him at his owne charges to take the paines to alter and set over againe those sheetes of the booke which he had corrupted & defaced with his marginall gloses & then to leave out those gloses which he had before so boldly & deceitfully inserted in that worke : for the evidence & truth of this matter we have both the testimony of those that set him on worke , as also his owne handy-work to reprove him , viz. the misprinted sheetes , the tokens of his deceit , which we keep by vs for a monument of his falshood . The truth is that Iean Delescluse did fret & chafe when this rebuke was layd vpon him , but howsoever part of his punishment was remitted vnto him , yet was there no remedy , divers sheetes must needes be printed againe & he must endure the paine & labour for the setting of the same : And thus we may see the saying of the wise man to be verifyed in him , The deceitfull man costeth not that which he tooke in hunting , Prov. 12. 27. The wages which he got by setting those sheets deceitfully at first was not so much , but the labour the losse & the shame withall which he had at the reprinting thereof may well be thought to be much more . 10. IN the declaration of this his third reason , he telles vs of his full perswasion that there be errours & abberrations in Mr. Br. his book & therfore addeth further ; If I had held my peace and sayd nothing I could not have cleared my self from partaking with other mens synnes ; and so should have done contrary to that holy commandement of the apostle to Timothy , 1. Tim. 5. 22. According to this profession of conscience , if it be vnfeigned in him , it may be further demanded of him . 1. VVhy did he not also put forth some short writing against the latine editiō of Mr. Br. his booke , seing he the same Iean Delescluse had also a hand in the printing of it heretofore ? That book in latine hath bene out now these divers yeares ; & never till this time hath he cleared himself by any writing against it , so long therfore he may seeme to have partaken with an other mans sinne . 2. VVhereas Mr. Th. hath hath had a hand in the printing of Mr. Robinsons booke against Mr. Bernard , & there being in it divers errours & aberratiōs from the truth of the living God , & this not onely in the iudgement of Mr. Iohnson who hath openly protested against the manifold errours therein , but also in the iudgement of Mr. Ainsworth himself & his company , how comes it now to passe that Mr. Th. hath not the like care & conscience to put forah some short writing against that booke as wel as Delescluse against Mr. Br. his booke ? why doth not I. Delescluse call vpon his fellow in like manner ? why doth he suffer Mr. Th. to partake with Mr. Robinsons errours by printing his booke ? 3. VVhereas this Iean Delescluse was heretofore a cardmaker , seing he hath had a hand in making those cardes that are the bookes of gamesters & idle persons seing many persons might be offended & scandalized by the vse of those play-bookes , why hath he not had the conscience to put forth some short writing against those bookes of vanity ? why is he not afraid of partaking with the sinnes of those gamesters whose handes have handled the cardes that were the worke of his hādes ? VVhy did he never yet cleare himself of this evill ? A good conscience is without * partiality & seekes to prevent one offence as wel as an other . VVhat can he answer to these thinges ? when he hath answered these thinges , we have sundry more such like to demand of him . 11. BEsides his partiality above noted , marke his folly also in this dealing , for if it were no sin to have a hand in the printing of Mr. Brightmans booke , thē what neede he to seek the clearing of himself by writing against the booke : if it were a sin to have a hand in the printing thereof , thē how foolish is he to think he could by an after testification cleare himself from that sinne which he did first willingly commit ? If this were a watrrantable course why might he not still follow his old trade of cardmaking & then afterwardes cleare himself by witnessing & writing against them ? why might he not also make idoles or images & afterwardes cleare himself frō partaking with the sinne of Idolatours by testifying against them ? Behold here the extreme absurdity of the Brownistes who condemne our communiō where we duely testify against the evilles cōmitted by others whiles they think to iustify themselves by testifying against those evilles in the committing whereof they them selves have a hand . 2. In a due testification against evill , the testimony ought to be as large as the evill , the plaister ought to be as large as the soare ; but Delescluse is vncertayne whether his writing ( which he countes a plaister for the errours and sores in Mr. Br. his booke ) shall ever spread so far as Mr. Br. his booke , & therfore it must needes be folly and sin in him that shall voluntarily and wilfully publish such thinges which he accountes as stumbling blockes layd before the blinde , while he is ignorant whether his labour shall ever come so far as to help the removall thereof in many places . 12. IN the subscription of his Epistle he vnder writes thus Thine as thou art the Lordes Iean Delescluse , that is to say , Thine as thou art a Brewnist and a separatist , for al the promises of God and of salvation , they do oft appropriate vnto those that separate : Those onely they declare to be the lords as touching their visible estate : Therfore howsoever he wold seeme to professe friendship , it is but hypocrisy : beware of such f●endes . 13. LEt vs now come from his Epistle to the book it self , where in he takes vpon him to shew how corruptly Mr. Brightman hath taught that the church of England is not to be separated from not withstanding all the sinnes and abhominations that are in the same : This poynt he sets downe both in the title of his booke and in his Epistle againe , as the butte or white at which he meanes to shoote , against this make he bendes his bow and prepares his arrowes vpon the stinge : And for the proofe of this poynt he sets downe ten speciall speeches which Mr. Brightman hath vttred touching the corruptions of the church of England . The first speech he * alledgeth are these wordes of Mr. Brightman , I could not but mourne from the bottome of my heart , when I beheld in her Christe loathing vs , and very greatly provoked against vs. Here vpon Iean Deslescluse inferreth thus : I desire the reader to observe the word which he vseth of Christe lothing them , which word of loathing seemeth to be taken from the 95. Psal . vers . 10. Where the Prophet speaking in the person of the Lord him self , sayth that fourty yeares long he had loathed that generation : saying that they are a people ●rring in their heart and not knowing his wayes , wherfore he sware in his wrath that they should not enter into his rest . So that by Mr. Brightmans owne grant , this church of England is in no better estate then were these rebelles in the wildernes , all which were consumed and entred not into his rest as he had sworne . First , this inference of Delescluse is vtterly false , for though Mr. B. should grant the same phrase to be vsed both of England & Israel , yet doth it not follow by this grant , that England is in no better estate then those rebelles in the wildernes ; for the holy ghost often vseth ore & the same generall worde or phrase touching divers sinners which yet not with standing may not therfore be all alike so condemned , but that some of them may be in better estate then others : for example , it is sayd that the Lord was angry with Israel in the dayes of Iehoahaz , 2. kin , 13. 3. It is also sayd in the like phrase of speech that the wrath of the Lord was kindled against Israel in the dayes of David , 2. Sam. 24. 1. Doth it now follow that Israel in the dayes of David was in no better estate then in the dayes of Iehoahaz ? The contrary is most evident & plaine , Israel being at one time a true church & at th' other a false church by the * confession of the Brownistes themselves : It is sayd in one generall phrase , I hate all false wayes , Ps . 119. 128. Now it is one false way to be hated or loathed that the high places were reteyned in the dayes of Iehoash & others 2. kin . 12. 3. & 14. 4. It was an other false way that the goldē calves & Baal were worshipped by the kinges of Israel : doth it now follow that these people were one of them in no better estate then the other , because the phrase of hating or loathing might be vsed against both of them ? Nothing lesse . To come neerer vnto them ; Mr. Robinson accounting it a false way & a violation of Gods ordinance in Mr. Ainsworthes company that they have no separation of their aimes among them , it followes herevpon that in his account also the word of loathing or hating may be vsed against them , seing every false way reteyned is to be loathed ; And further Mr. Robinson holdes it a false way & order of government that is practised in Mr. Iohnsons church , which is therfore also to be loathed by them : Doth it now follow from hence that by this graunt Mr. Ainsworthes company is in no better estate then Mr. Iohnsons , because of the same word of loathing attributed vnto both of them ? Nothing lesse . The matter being thus made plaine vnto them , the simplest among them may see , what a corrupt & blinde maner of reasoning is here vsed by their elder Delescluse . Secondly , suppose it were granted that the church of Tsrael were in no better estate then Israel in the wildernes , yet what is this to the scope and purpose of his booke ? Doth this prove that the church of England is therfore to be separated from ? Nay , the contrary appeareth hence , seing it is vndeniably true that even Israel in the wildernes notwithstanding all their abhominations which the Lord loathed were yet a true church and communion with them was lawfull , as appeares in the example of Moses , Ioshua , Aaron and other faithfull servants of God remayning among them ; And therfore so might it be with England also though being in no better estate . And thus the same arrow that he shootes at vs returnes vpon himself and pearceth the side of his owne separation . 14. IN the next place he procedes & labours to perswade his reader , that the Lord hath more iust cause to wath the church of England , then that of the Israelites in the wildernes : VVel , suppose now , that this also were granted vnto him , would this prove that we should then separate from England ? In no sort ; for the Lord had more cause to loath the church of Israel in the dayes of Christe , then in the wildernes , And yet even then also there was a lawfull communion with that church when the measure of their iniquity was greater , and when there was a greater then Moses to convince them of that wickednes : And thus we see how that still he comes short of the mark he shootes at , seing greater abhominations then those of Israel in the desert are yet no sufficient ground of separation . 15. FOr the further declaration of this matter , let vs a litle examine his particular instances here alledged by him , first ( sayth he ) that church had a true ministery , and true offices and officers , and so hath not the church of England by Mr. Brightmans owne graunt . First , let it be considered how vnworthy a thing it is , that this man which is himself an vsurper and a false officer should thus take vpon him to dispute about the ministery and the offices in the churches of God : for first , when he was yet with Mr. Iohnson , he was then a false officer , that whole company being in schisme & therfore a false church yeelding no lawfull officers ; 2ly , suppose Mr. Iohnsons company had bene a true church , and he a true officer in it yet seing he hath now schismed from that company , and was also deposed from his office by Mr. Iohnson and his assistants , how can he in this schisme be reputed a true minister ? 3ly , when he was yet a member of the french chuch and did there earnestly seek an office , after tryall of his giftes he was repelled and iudged insufficient and vnmeete to be a minister : Now then shall he that was both Kept out from entring into an office as vnworthy , and againe thrust out of an office as vnworthy after he had entred , and this both by a true reformed church and by the Brownistes themselves , shall this vnworthy person come now and in the middes of his vnworthines pronounce sentence touching the truth or falshood of offices & ministeries in the church ? Secondly , let it be considred , how he abuseth & wrongeth Mr. Brightman in saying that the church of England hath not a true ministery , offices & officers & that by Mr. Brightmans owne graunt : for though Mr. Br. do iustly complaine that the church of England wanteth some offices which it should have , & againe that it hath some officers which it should not have , yet doth he not affirme a true ministery to be altogather wanting , he doth not deny but that there are some true offices & officers therein . Thirdly , though there be that defect in the ministery of the church of Engl. which Mr. Brighman noteth , how doth Delescluse prove from thence , that separation must reedes follow ? for this he bringes not so much as any shew of proofe from the scriptures to iustify such a consequence 16. THat second particular exception which he bringeth touching persecution by the officers in the church of England is againe repeated by him in his tenth speech of Mr. Brightmans which he alledgeth & is there answered , for which see the 38. section following . 17. THe third particular differēce which he affirmeth to have bene betwixt Israel & Eng. is , that their governmēt in Israel was not a mixt governemēt partiy of the Egiptians , partly of the Moabites and Edomites or Cananeans , but simple and and pure according to the true patterne shewed to Moses in the mount ; but that of England is not so , for Mr. Brightman affirmeth it to be partly Romish and partly reformed etc. First , if it be true that Mr. Robinson writeth , viz. that the church officers , the priests & levites in the Iewish church to whō the charge of the whole congregation for the service of the tabernackle did appertayne , had no authority by the order of their office to inflict any censure spiritually vpon the people , but onely to interpret the law ett . Answ . to Mr. Bern. pag. 198. then is all this idle which Delescluse doth here speak of their government : If the ecclesiasticall officers did exercise no government at all , then is it in vayne to dispute of the purity of a thing that was nothing . Secondly , if that excommunication or dissynagogueing noted Ioh. 9. 22. was but a Iewish devise and without warrant of the scriptures , as both * Mr. Robinson doth write , and Mr. Smith also hath written before him , then was the governmēt of the Iewes a devised governemēt , an Impure ād mixt governemēt , partly divine and partly humane ; and yet not with standing this mixt government we see there was then a lawfull communion ; that mixture of devised governemēt was no ground of separation , as this Delescluse would vainely collect against Mr. Britghman and against the church of England . Thirdly , if a mixt governement be a ground of separation , then is Mr. Ainsworthes company to be reiected seing it doth exercise a popular confused and mixt government , consisting partly in the power of the officers , but chiefely in the power of the people : And thus the collection of Delescluse serves to overthrow his owne governement : And the shame of this their mixed governemēt which Mr. Iohnson hath affirmed to be worse then the goverement of the church of England , doth in this respect lye the more heavily on them in that Mr. Iohnson hath also in a printed booke condemned the same , which booke the Ainswort hians have not yet answerd . 18. THe fourth particular instance which he bringeth to prove the difference betwixt Israel & England is this : None of that church ( sayth he ) were admitted vnto any office but onely such as were lawfully called therevnto as Aaron was , but so it is not in England etc. First , it is onely the bare affirmati of Delescluse that sayth of the church of Israel that none were there admitted vnto any office but onely such as were lawfully called as Aaronwas ; where is his proofe from the scriptures where of he boasted in his Epistle . Secondly , it is a false affirmation of Delescluse , for when Annas & Caiaphas did enterchangeably execute the high priestes office , as appeareth Luk. 3. 2. Ioh. 11. 51. it was not possible that both of them could be lawfully admitted vnto the execution of that office which was peculiar vnto one man during his life . Thirdly , seing Mr. Iohnson hath offred to prove vnto Mr. Ainsworth & his company that in their popular governement they are like ▪ vnto Korah & his company ambitiously vsurping an office wherevnto they are not lawfully called & that vpon the Korites ground , Numb . 16. 3. it had bene much fitter that Mr. Ainsworth or Delescluse should have defended & cleared themselves of the evill which they lay vpon others by writing against Mr. iohnson about these thinges while he is yet alive to auswer for himself , rather then to wri●e against Mr. Bright man that is dead & now resteth from his labours in the Lord , especially seing Mr. iohnson hath so often entreated , provoked & vrged Mr. Ainsworth therevnto & that openly in their congregation , before the rent was made : Yea besides respect of the matter it self , are they not specially bound for their old covenant sake to shew the Franciscanes their errour & that by writing rather then to deale with strangers . 19. FRom these instances above mentioned he drawes a terrible conclusion on this manner , Therefore it doth necessarily follow that the estate of the church of England is worse then was the estate of those rebelles in the wildernes , & that there is nothing to be expected from Christe , by any member thereof , but a powring out of his eternal wrath vpon them . In this peremptory sentence which he denounceth against the church of England he takes on him as if he would seeme to be one of those sevē angelles which having their breastes g●●ded with golden girdles do stand with the vialles of Gods wrath in their handes to powre ●ut ●is vengeance on the wicked , but the truth is he is rather in this his doome like one of the angelles of Sathan that accuse the brethren condemning those whom God hath iusti●yed : By this sentence he doth at once extinguish & quench the whole light & comfort of the gospell , which teacheth that there is no condemnation to those that are in Christe & beleeve in his name , Rom 3. 28. and 8. 1. For such beleeves there are many in the church of England holding that doctrine of faith & iustification whereby the faithfull & the saintes in al the reformed churches do hope to ente● into life everlasting , & that whereby the Brownistes themselves must be saved if ever they enter into glory : Now to denounce the aeternall wrath of Christe to those that have true faith , what is it els but to abolish the gospell , to destroy faith & to make it of no effect ? If an angell frō heaven should come & preach vnto vs as Delescluse here hath done , yet ought we not to receive him , Gal. 1. 8. But here the Brownistes obiect that true fayth shewes it self by workes , which ( they say ) are apparantly evill in the church of England . First , their faith sheweth it self by these fruites , by their ioy in the Lord , their cōtinuall study & delight in the word of God their cōtinuall invocatiō of the name of God every day , their delight in the Sabath , their love of the godly for the truth sake , their vnfeigned sorow for their sinnes , their patiēce for the testimony of Christe , & sundry other such like fruites which are the vndoubted & certaine to kens of true saith , Ps . 89. 15. Ps . 1. 2. Ioel. 2. 32. Esa . 56. 4. 5. 6. Mat. 10. 41. 42. Mat. 5. 4. 10. 11. Secondly , suppose other of their workes be evill ▪ suppose also that their refusall of separation were a sin , yet seing it cannot be thought other then a sinne of ignorance & that God had not opened their eyes in this matter , what an absurd & wicked thing is it in this estate to pronounce of them all without exception , that there is nothing to be expected from Christe by any member thereof , but a powring out of his aeternall wrath vpon them , for who can vnderstand his faults and who is it but that he sinnes of ignorance , and why not in the mysterie of the separation as well as in others , especially it being such a poynt as the members of all other true churches can not comprehend the same ? Not with standing such errours the members of the church of England may be vpright with the Lord and accepted of him and made partakers of eternall salvation , Ps . 19. 13. 1. Cor. 13. 9. with 1. Cor. 1. 30. Ps . 32. 1. 2. But to salve or mitigate this their vnchristian and hard sentence , they tell vs that in such maner of sentences and iudgements they speak respectively , viz. that the faithfull in England cannot be accounted true Christians in respect of their ministery , in respect of their constitution , in respect of their estate , being so considered etc. In this exception the Brownistes do shew their vanity in seeking out frivolous pretences to colour their rash iudgements ; for first , when as true and ●ound iudgemēt is to be given touching the estate of a Christian and an heire of salvation , he is then to be considred not by the halfes or by some such and such respects onely , but wholly and entirely with all his respectes togather . And so a faithfull man considered not apart from his errours and ignorances but considered togather with them and with his faith is yet to be iudged and that absolutely a true Christian & an heire of salvation , suppose there besome manifest errours and offences vpon him yet his faith shewing it self in other manifest fruites thereof is a visible cover for all his offences , seing the Lord hath manifested in his word that faith alone doth iustify and lay hold on everlasting righteousnes , Gal. 2. 16. and 3. 7. Eph. 2. 8. and therfore such a one in his outward estate and profession is still a visible Christian notwithstanding any other visible iniquities wherein he ignorantly continueth . Secondly , when Christe at his last comming shall pronounce iudgement , he will not consider men apart frō their constitution , ministery , governement etc. he will not say in such respect I condemne thee and in such respect I do iustify thee and save thee , but he doth absolutely pronounce sentence either of salvation or condemnation , And this iudgement of the Lord is generally manifested in his word & according to his word will he iudge at the last day , Ioh. 12. 48. Mark. 16. 16. and therfore according to this word of the Lord the estate of of mē is absolutely to be declared without such respective cōsiderations and exceptions . If the questiō had bene onely about the reproofe of some particular sin in any persō , or about the comparing of one person with an other thē might they have iudged herein respectively ; for the mā that is a true Christiā may in some respect be worthily reprehended & may in some respect be vnlike vnto others ; but when the question is about the iudgement of a true Christian & about his obteyning of salvation , then are such partiall & respective considerations idle & of no vse : A man is in such case either absolutely to be condemned or absolutely to be iustifyed & acquit . Thirdly , according to that respective iudgement , every church yea every person in the world should be condemned & stand vnder the wrath of God , because every church & every person doth erre & commit sin & in that respect being considered apart from Christe is accursed , And according to this respective iudment of the Brownistes , Delesculse in respect of those eleven corruptions which they lay vpon the reformed churches ( supposing they were iustly imputed vnto them ) might in like manner accordingly have pronounced of them all , that there is nothing to be expected from Christe , by any member thereof , but a powring out of his eternall wrath vpon them , seing no sin is in it self veniall , al sinnes with out f●●th in him do bring eternall wrath , as well one as an other . And in like maner Mr. Iohnson holding the same corruptions in the reformed dutch & french churches , might in this respect say of thē all as he * sayth of England , that they stand all subiect to wrath , God imputing this their sinne vnto them . For any one of the least sinnes do make men subiect to wrath God imputing the same vnto them . Lastly , Mr. Iohnson ( as he telleth vs himself ) whensoever he vttred his hard sentence against the church of England did alwayes speak with caution and added some of these clauses , being so considred , in that estate , in that 〈◊〉 . But here Delescluse without any caution or clause of consideration shuts them vp all vnder eternall wrath , makes his arrowes drun●ken with the blood of soules , & will needes have them all to drinck the cup of indignation from his hand with no lesse sin & drunkennes of errour then when he had drunken that cup of magis whereof Iacob Iohnson is sayd to have admonished him , he doth in this place as vainely condemne the faithfull for no sheepe of Christe , as he did then commend the same Iacob Iohnson to be a fit pastour for his sheepe . 20. THe second speech of Mr. Brightman alledged to shew that he doth corruptly teach against the separation is this , viz. that the most mighty king Henry had expelled the pope , but reteyned the popish superstition . Note here the folly of Delescluse , that would prove a separation in one time by the corruptions & superstitions of an other time : as though he should say : In king Henries time there were many superstitions , therfore in Queene Elizabeths time there ought to be a separation notwithstanding all the reformation that was procured by her meanes : what sober man would so argue ? 21. FVrther , whereas Delescluse sayth that the pope cannot properly be sayd to be expelled when his doctrine and superstition is retepned , it is a vayne Cavill , for first , if he stand so precisely vpon propriety of speech , the pope can not properly be sayd to be expelled , no not then where his doctrine and superstition is expelled ; It is a figurative speech to note the popish doctrine and superstition vnder the name of the pope himself . 2ly , it is yet a true and a fit speech in Mr. Brightman to say that the pope was expelled when the iurisdiction of the pope and the supremacy formerly annexed vnto his person was denyed and reiected , when he was no longer acknowledged to be the head of that church , when that which was vniustly arrogated vnto the person of the pope was translated vnto the person of the king as it was in King Henries dayes : even as the venetians at this day might very fitly be sayd to expell the pope , if they would vtterly deny his supremacy both in civill and Ecclesiastcall causes , howsoever they might reteyne many popish superstitions . 2. THe third speech of Mr. Bright man which he bringes against him to prove a separation from the church of England is this , that there is such a forme of church established as is neither cold nor hote , but set in the middes and made of both , etc. These wordes Mr. B. vttred in comparing the church of Laodicea & England togather , as the type and antitype vnto one an other ; That which he sayth of England he takes frō Laodicea which is also declared to be neither hote nor cold , Rev. 3. 15. 16. so that by this manner of arguing he might as well prove a separation from the church of Laodicea in respect of the lukewarmnes which the holy ghost shewes to have bene found therein . But that it is most erroneous so to reason , Christe plainely teacheth vs while he telles vs that this church was still a golden candlestick , that the angell thereof was a starre in his right hand , & that he himself would still sup & communicate with that church ; And therfore so also may the church of England be reputed not with standing the same or the like luke warmnes . 23. VVIth this third speech he desires that this which he hath set downe for the fift charge may be ioyned , where Mr. B. sayth , that no other cause can be brought of their lukewarmnes , the popish governement mingled with the pure doctrine , then the love of riches and honours . And what can he conclude hence ? VVhat though they were covetous & ambitious given to the love of riches & honors & so became lukewarme ? shall this be a iust cause of separation from the church ? No ; for the scribes & Pharisees were also covetous & ambitious , Mat. 23. 5. etc. Luk. 16. 14. & yet cōmunion with them was lawfull . 24. HE desires further that this complaint of lukewarmnes may be compared with that prayse of reformation which Mr. Br. gives vnto the church of England in the title of his epistle dedicatory : VVel , being compared with the same it may well stand togather with it , for reformed churches may yet have lukewarme ministers & many other greevous corruptions to be complayned of : yea doth not Delescluse condemne himself in this matter ? for doth not he also in the title of his booke & in his epistle written to the English readers entitle thē with the name of godly reader and Christian reader ? And is there any god ●ine● without reformation ? Is there any Christian that is not reformed ? VVhy then may not Mr. B. call those holy & reformed whom Delescluse doth call godly and Christian ? 25. HE demandes still in the same place & sayth ; Is it possible that holynes and vnholynes can raigne togather ? VVe answer ; Yea , in one & the same church in the divers members thereof , as in the church of the iewes , holynes raygned in Christe & his disciples , vnholynes raigned in the scribes and Pharisees &c. 26. HE yet demandes againe & saith , Is there any communion betweene Christe and Anti-christe ? betweene light and darknes ? betweene Idolles and the true God ? Can any kingdome , any church , any family , any man submit vnto the governement of Anti-christe and not be defiled . VVe answer , though Christe & Anti-christe be enimies , yet the servants of Christe may lawfully communicate in that church where many abhominations of Anti-christe are to be seene , sor as francis wingrave a Brownist doth truely acknowledge , Every abhomination of Anti-thriste doth not make a church to become Anti-christian for the best churches are subiect to errour and some abhominations of Anti-christe , were crept into Christian churches whiles the Apostles lived : And yet communion was lawfull therein . Even so the children of light & the children of darknes did communicate togather in Christes time : As for Idolles if they be no other then set formes of read prayer and such like , which the Brownistes call idolles , communion with them is lawfull enough : And for governement though Caiaphas was an Anti-christian vsurper , yet did many persons lawfully submit vnto his power : Thus hath God himself and his Prophets , Christ and his Apostles taught vs both by their word and example and therfore let Delescluse heare the Prophet Esay which he alledgeth , turning vnto him and saying vnto the maynteyners of schisme , wo vnto them that call that communion evill which the Lord hath shewed to be good and lawfull . 27. FRom a fourth speech of Mr. Br. he reasoneth thus : Moreover in his fourth charge where he maketh the state of the poore blinde Papistes far better , then the condition of the angell of the church of England , and that also such as are the angelles such becommeth the church for the most part , I do observe that by his owne doctrine the estate of the church of England is worse then Babylon it self , which Babylon is graunted by all to be that Synagogne and church of Anti-christe devoted vnto destruction etc. First , he falsmes Mr. Br. his speech by adding a degree of comparison which Mr. Bri●ghtm . vsed not in saing that he makes the estate of the poore blinde papistes farr better : It had bene far better for Delescluse to have to have omitted that clause , & to have repeated Mr. Brightmans comparison simply & truely with out such addition ; but it seemes he he favours his owne cause more thē true dealing . Secondely , he corrupts & falsifies Mr. Brightmans speech againe by saying that he makes the estate of the poore blinde papistes far better , then the condition of the angel of the church of England as though Mr. Brightman had spoken generally and without exception touching the whole ministery of the church of England , whereas even by Delescluses owne * former allegation of the wordes , Mr. Br. speakes of those angelles , who bewitched with ambition and covetousnes do refuse holy reformation , where yet also he leaves out the word onely being a word of restraint vsed by † Mr. Brightman of purpose to prevent the cavilles of such honest men as this Delescluse here shewes him self , Mr. Brightman sayth that Christe in this place preferreth the blinde papistes , onely before those angelles , who bewitched with ambition etc. And thus the double falshood of Delescluse appeareth not onely in adding but also in omitting that which was most significant and specially to be considred . Thirdly , suppose Mr B. had spoken generally of the whole ministery in Englād , yet is the observation of Delescluse most false & vaine . It would not follow therevpon , that the estate of the church of England is worse then Babylon it self as he gathereth ; for even touching those angelles bewitched with ambition and covetousnes , refusing holy reformation , Mr B. speakes not simply & absolutely of thē that they are worse then the papistes , but onely in respect of the greater grace & light which they have receyved for their reformation , for so he doth also explane himself in the same place ; Mr B. knew well enough that the angelles or ministers of the church of Roome ( besides other greater evilles ) are also bewitched with ambition & covetousnes & do therfore refuse holy reformation &c. onely he noted them to be something more excusable in respect of their ignorance because they knew not their maisters will so as those in England doe : we may here fitly tell Delescluse in Mr. Ainsworthes wordes ; He may much abuse any mans words if that which is spoken respectively , he will take and alledge as spoken absolutely . VVhat though the Lord do in some respect p●ef●ree Ch●●tim & Kedar before Israel Ier. 2. 10. 11. ? May it be observed hence that the estate of Israel was simply worse then those heathens , or that Israel was to be separated from rather then they ? The papistes are in some respect worse 〈…〉 followes it not hence that they are simply & absolutely worse . 〈…〉 of the Ainsworthians that they are worse then the Fran●●●scanes in respect of their contention , vnquietnes & disorder , doth it follow hence that he accountes the Ainsworthiās to be simply the worse & rather to be separated frō ? Nothing lesse . By these examples let Delescluse learne to see his solly in ga - thering such observations . 28. AFter this false recitall of Mr. Br. his wordes togather with his false observation vpon the same he makes this question in the * same place . 〈◊〉 where are then those great prayses of all manner of blessinges vpō that church rehearsed in the second artickle , but cheefely these spirituall blessinges of the word purely and sincerely taught in it . First , for those earthly blessinges whereof Mr. B. spake , why might they not be found in that church of England , suppose it had bene every way worse then Roome ? How blinde is Delescluse that makes this question so far from the purpose ? Secondly , as for the spirituall blessinges of the word purely taught , seing Mr. Br. doth blame but some of the ministers of that church , why may not the word be purely and sincerely taught by others that are free from the blame there spoken of ? 29. A Seventh speech which Delesc . bringeth from Mr. B. against the church of England is this that naughtines raigneth in it , the hand of God is heavy vpon it ; and againe , that in her the lawes of Christe are not kept . Hence he inferreth ; But what is there then to be done , even this that every soule who hath any care of salvation and of escaping the eternall flames of everlasting damnation be carefull to come out with speed from Babylon etc. This conclusion of separation which Delescluse here gathereth & denounceth vnder paine of eternall flames of everlasting damnation is vayne , for first all that Mr. Br. here sayth of England might also most truely be affirmed of that church of the jewes where in Christe did communicate for there , 1. naughtines raigned & prevayled in the Herods , in the priestes , elders , scribes , Pharisees & Sadducees &c. Mat. 2. 16. and 12. 24. and 14. 9. and 16. 12. 21. 2ly , the hand of God was heavy vpō them in their manifold oppressions & miseries which they endured vnder the government of the Romanes & their substitutes , Mat. 2. 16. and 3. 10. and 17. 24. etc. Luk. 13. 1. and 2. 1. Ioh. 11. 48. 3ly , the lawes of Christ were not kept there Mat. 15. 3. Ioh. 15. 20. 22. And now by the sētēce of Delescluse , eternall flames of evelasting damnatiō must be the portion of Christe & his Disciples that cōmunicated with that church , who will not detest such vile cōclusions , which are like vnto arrowes shot even against the breaste of Christe Iesus himself ? As he that makes himself mad casteth firebrandes , arrowes and mortall thinges prov . 26. 18. so Delescluse in this place casting abroad his firebrandes of eternall damnation , shooting his arrowes against heaven , & throwing mortall thinges even vpon the Lord of life what doth he els herein but declare himself to be a mad man ? & why might not this his booke which he entitles an Ad-vertisement be much more fitly entitled a Mad-vertisement . Secondly , all that Mr. Br. affirmeth in this place touching England hath bene affirmed by the Brownistes themselves touching one an other : so that Delescluse may here see how he hath kindled a fire to burne vp himself & his owne company : For 1. that naughtines raigneth among the Ainsworthians it may appeare by the testimony of Mr. Iohnson who hath oft in publique witnessed of them as of drosse or chaffe which the Lord with his fanne would purge out from them , vnder that name of chaffe the the holy ghost doth declare vuto vs the wicked among whom nanghtines raigneth Ps . 1. 4. Mat. 3. 12. As for the Franciscanes ( besides many other greevous thinges ) some of Mr. Ainsworthes company do testify of them , that probable murder and approved whoredomes are tolerated or maynteyned among them ; Delescluse himself is noted for one of the witnesses . 2ly that the hand of God is heavy vpon them appeareth manifestly by the * notable testimony of Mr. Iohnson himself : 3ly that the lawes of Christe are not kept among thē of Mr. Ainsworthes company Mr. Iohnson testifyeth touching their governement , & Mr. Robinson touching the administration of their deacons in that they have no separation of their almes : Thus Delescluse by his owne maner of reasoning doth enwrap himself and his company in the flames of damnation , yea in eternall flames of everlasting damnation . 30. FVrther Delescluse to prove a separation from that church where naughtines raigneth doth alledge that saying of the Apostle , he which coupleth himself with an harlot , is one body , 1. Cor. 6. 16. But this allegation ( though repeated * againe by hiu as a speciall ground of their separation ) is nothing to the purpose ; the apostle there meaneth that he wich coupleth himself with an harlot by fornication or whoredome , that person defileth himself by his wicked act ; for otherwise it was lawfull for a man to couple himself with an harlot by marying with her , as we see in Salmon and Rahab , Mat. 1. 5. with Iosh . 6. 25. The priestes indeed were forbidden , even by mariage to couple them selves with an harlot , Lev. 21. 7. 14. that others were so forbidden we reade not . But as for ioyning in communion with a church where naughtines raigned , it was not forbidden , no not to the priestes themselves , from Aaron to Zacharie we never read or any godly priestes , that did ever separate vpon such a ground a Delescluse doth here pretend . 31. VVHereas againe Delescluse noteth that as concerning the outward blessinges of peace and prosperity in earthly thinges , by it no church , no man can have any assurance to be in the favour of God etc. This note is idle , neither hath Mr B. alledged outward prosperity as a marke of of a true church and Delescluse doth abuse Mr. B. by insinuating vnto the reader such a matter , for to what end should he els oppose the fame ? In this note Delescluse doth so fight as one that beateth the ayre fighting with his owne shadow and so offendeth against the example of the Apostle , 1. Cor. 9. 26. 32. IN the next place to confort his reader against the tediousnes of his short writing he telles vs , that he will now begin to draw to an end concerning his charges &c. and that he will draw the rest into a short summe : But what needed he to do so , if there had bene any soundnes in this his so short a writing ? hath he not already hasted & posted so fast on that he hath forgot his reckoning ? for whereas in the beginning of his booke he hath numbred out ten charges or testimonies of Mr. Brightman touching the corruptions in the church of England & hath also * promised to declare his minde concerning them , notwithstanding this , forgetting his method propounded at the beginning , forgetting his promise made vnto the reader , as though he could not count ten , so hath he left out one of his number & hath not shewed vs his minde touching the sixt testimony of Mr. B. which he alledged at first : Thus we see he makes more hast then good speede : Could he not runne except he skip with all by leaping quite over the matter which he propounded & promised to handle ? 33. COme we now vnto the eighth allegation which he bringeth from Mr. Br. against the church of England touching some constitutions and ordinances in the same , on this maner ; excellent ordinances indeed ; for which the reformed churches may be ashamed . First of all observe here his ignorance in the mistranslation of these wordes ; for as it is signifyed vnto vs by sundry that have more learning then our selves or this Delescluse , these latter wordes of Mr. B. prae quibus erubescant reformatae Ecclesiae are not to be translated as here they are set downe by Delescluse but in a quite contrary sense ; prae quibus signifying not for whith but in comparison whereof the reformed churches may be ashamed , And as these two speeches are quite contrary , if we should first say thus Delescluse hath written such thinges for which Mr. Ainsworth may be ashamed and then againe on th● other side to say , Delescluse hath written such thinges in comparison whereof Mr. Ainsworth might be ashamed , for the first of cheefe speeches doth declare how ill he hath done to make his fellowes ashamed , the second sheweth how well he hath done to shame his fellowes that they can not imitate him , even such difference is there betwixt the speech of Mr. B. truely translated , and betwixt the ignorant translation thereof by Delescluse in this place . And herewithall is to be noted that as there is an jronie or figurative speech in the fi●st part of Mr. B. his testimony , where he speaketh of excellent ordinances , even so also he speakes by the contrary when he telles vs in the latter part thereof , how the reformed churches may blush thereat , as though they had not the like ordinances , but in the translation of Delescluse this jroine is not to be found . He telles vs in his Epistle how he hath had a hand both in the translating and printing of Mr. B. his booke , that so he might be found guilty of all manner of falsification , 1. false printing and glosing as is noted before . sect . 9. 2ly , false allegation as is shewed before sect . 27. 3ly false translation as in this place , 4ly , false interpretation & collections throughout his booke . Secondly , what if the reformed churches may be ashamed of the corruptions & 〈◊〉 in the church of England ? will this prove the * speciall thinge intended by Delesculse in his writing & in his allegation of Mr. Br. his speeches ? will this prove that Mr. Brightman taught corruptly when he sayd that we ought not to separate frō the church of England ? Nothing lesse , In the time of Christe the jewes had many wicked traditious , ordinances & customes for which the godly might be ashamed , and yet they might not then separate : The churches of Ephesus & Smyrna might well be ashamed of the manifold corruptions in other of their neighbour churches in Asia & yet without separation . VVe our selves have often seene such thinges in the Brownistes for which all that professe the name of Christe might well be ashamed , we have seene their contentions , disorders & conf●sions so great , that even the jewes , the professed enimies of Christe being neighbours vnto the Brownistes and dwelling hard by them & perceyving their bitter dissensions & divisions have laughed them to scorne & poynted at them with the finger : Thus have they bene a scandall and an offence both to th●se with in & without the church : And now therfore according to the reasoning of Delesclnse they are for this to be reiected & separated from . 34. DElescluse in his amplification of this fore sayd speech makes a large complaint against the reformed churches , shewing that they may be ashamed because they have not dealt so sincerely and plainely with the church of England for reproofe of corruptions in the same , &c ▪ In this complaint observe first , how absurdly Delescluse dealeth that being to reprove the dutch & french churches writes against them in English which they can not vnderstand ; why did he not also write against the church of England in french or dutch ? Secondly , note here how he breakes his promise : he promised immediately before to be breefe & to bring that which remayned into a short summe ; & yet he is now more large and ample in laying out this testimony of Mr. B. then in any of the former . In this dealing it seemes he scarse knew or cared what he sayd or did . Thirdly , let the reader know that the reformed churches have plenteonsly testifyed against the corruptions of the church of England contrary to that which Delescluse doth here pretend : for a tast hereof to omit other thinges we desire the reader but to looke vpon these three bookes , viz. Abridgement of the booke delivered to his maiesty by ministers of lincol . etc. The answer to D. Downehams sermon ; the scholasticall discourse against the signe of the crosse , wherein may be seene the pregnant and abundant testimonies of learned men in the reformed churches both against the hierarchy or prelacy and also against the superstitious ceremonies remayning in the church of England , as namely Calvine , Beza , Musculus , Bucer , Martyr , Bullinger , Aretius , Zanchius , Mornaeus , Iunius , Sadeel , Piscator , Polanus , Vrsinus , Virel , Viret , Grinaeus , Bucanus , Goulartius , Danaeus , Olevian , Zepperus , Lubbertus , Bastingius , Snecanus , Keckerman , with a number more , who as they have testifyed against the corruptions maynteyned by the prelates on the one side , so have they testifyed against the separation & schisme maynteyned by the Brownistes and Anabaptistes on th' other side : In so much that both they which plead for the prelacy and they which plead for separation do in like manner esteeme and hold the ministers of the reformed churches as their partyes and adversaries , see D. Down hams defence , lib. 1. pag. 197. and H. Ainsw . counterpoy . pag. 15. 35. A Ninth speech of Mr. Brightman alledged by Delescluse is touching the names of the officers of that church , that they were vnknowne vnto the church of Christe , except the bishops etc. where vpon Delescluse infereth in these wordes : And what is this ? shall then any soule in whom there is but a very small sparkle of the feare of God , be so bold as to dare submit vnder the government and guidance of such vnlawfull ministers and ministery ? Yea verily , we see those soules that had very many and great sparkles of the feare of God have submitted themselves vnder the government and guidance of vnlawfull ministers , neither hath Delescluse here brought any sound reason to shew the contrary : VVe see that in Christes time there were divers officers whose names had not bene heard of in the primitive church of the ●ewes , no● ever were instituted by any example of former times in that church , as namely the names of of lawyers , scribes of the people and according to the writing of of the Brownistes , the names of Archisynagogues , or rulers of the Synagogues . Secondly , it is evident , the godly may lawfully submit themselves vnto the government & guidance of such private brethren , who in respect of their sects , factions & superstitious observations have had ●uch names as were formerly vnknowne vnto the church of God , who also in respect of their wickedn●s deserved to have their names ●lotted o●t of the register of the saintes , This we see in the communion of the godly with the scribes & Pharisees : And therfore if it be lawful for Christians to submit themselves vnto the counsayles , admonitions & rebukes of those which for their sin ought to be cast out of the church of God & yet are vniustly reteyned : If a man may stand vnder the guidance and authority of such admonishers , so long as he testifies against their sinnes , then may he also stand vnder the government & guidance of vnlawfull officers : If a man may submit himself vnto one who is vnlawfully a member of the church , why not also vnto him who is vnlawfully a minister of the church ? If a man may submit himself in private vnto the guidance of an vnlawfull brother , then why not also vnto the publique guidance of an vnlawfull officer ? There is more proportion betwixt a member & a minister then betwixt a member & an excommunicate or an heathen , or one that ought to be excommunicate : For example , Daniel studly & Iean Delesculse being both of them deposed from their offices for sin imputed vnto them by the Franciscane Brownistes , suppose they were still obstinate in the sinnes imputed vnto them deserving excommunication , & yet tolerated vnlawfully , in this estate being not iudged nor cast out by their church their admonitions for sin either in the first or second place were not to be reiected : And if their private admonition might be submitted vnto , why not their publique also if they had not bene deposed ? If in the want of due excommunication the private admonition of an vnlawfull member is of force & to be submitted vnto , then in the want of iust deposition the publique admonition or other workes of governement exercised by vnlawfull ministers is of force & to be submitted vnto : This reason is specially to be considred of those Brownistes that mainteyne the popular governement & submit vnto the same . 36. BVt Delescluse addes his reason why such vnlawfull ministers are not to be submitted vnto : For sayth he : Are they not all thieves and robbers which enter not in by the dore but climbe vp an other way ? And will any man of wisedome commit vnto the protection and and keeping of theeves the least part of his worldly goods ? No , none wilde so vnwise for every one ●ndweth that they will but make a pray of them and spoile and rob them ? And shall any then be so carefull for thinges of so small importance and shall he not care vnto whom he doth commit the guidance of that which is the principall , namely of his soule ? First , we do directly affirme that which Delescluse doth so flatly deny ▪ Many men of wisedome may & will & ought to commit vnto the protection & keeping of theeves not onely the least part but the greatest part of their worldly goods : For all tyrants a wicked rulers that oppresse & spoyle their subiectes are theeves & robbers , Prov. 28. 15. Esa . 1. 23. Hos . 5. 1. Mic. 3. 1. 2. etc. Yea these great thieves are in divers respectes more vile then other outpurses or then th●se that rob by the high way side , Yet vnto the protection & keeping of these tyrantes men both of wisedome & godlines may & ought to commit both their lives & their goods ; Those which teach men not to submit vnto such are guilty of rebellion & treason ; Though Saul was a tyrant & an oppressour 1. Sam. 8. 11. etc. Yet was submission vnto him lawfull & necessary , men of wisedome did lawfully commit themselves & their goods vnto his protection . Thus the ground of Delescluse his argument is taken away . Secondly , men of wisedome may & ought also sometimes to commit the guidance of their soules vnto thieves ; for all false stewardes & vnfaithfull ministers that teach not the flock of God but keep back his counsell are indeed theeves also & steale the word of the Lord from their neighbours , Ier. 23. 30. 1. Cor. 4. 1. 2. And such thieves there were many in Israel , such were many of the scribes & lawyers in Christes time , Mat. 23. 13. etc. Luk. 11. 52. And yet our saviour requires his servants to submit vnto such , to heare their doctrine , though with this caution to beware of their leaven , Mat. 16. 12. Men might lawfully receive their sound doctrine , while they discerned that which was erroneous & tooke heed of the same . The scribes in their corrupt and wicked administration or execution of their office were notorious theeves ; & a theevish administration is as bad as a thievis● entrance , & yet we see the ministery of such might be submitted vnto . Thirdly , if the ministery of thieves and robbers may not be submitted vnto , then may not the ministery of schismatiques be submitted vnto , for schismatitiques that steale away themselves and others from the cōmunion of of the faith full are in this respect no better then theeves : And therfore by this his owne argument the ministery of Delescluse is not to be submitted vnto , because as a schismatique he hath stollen away himself both from the reformed french church of old and againe of late from the Franciscane Brownistes , who being formerly in his account a true church , how could he so renounce and disclayme their communion without schisme ? 37. YEt further he bringes here a ground of scripture oft abused by the Brownistes to prove their separation in these wordes : Let them alone therfore for as our saviour sayth / they are blinde leaders of the blinde : and both of them shall surely fall into the pit . The letting alone here spokē of by Christe is to be vnderstood in respect of the offence which the Pharisees tooke vniustly at the wordes of Christe that the Disciples should not be troubled therewith , as appeareth Mat. 15. 12. 14. Our saviour by his example did there teach vs to testify against corruptions as he himself there did against the traditions of the Pharisees , vers . 3. 7. etc. But as for separation from such guides our saviour sayth nothing , yea that he meant no such thing it appeareth evidently by the communion which he and his Apostles did afterwardes still reteyne in that church not separating from the same . And though they were in many thinges blinde leaders , yet not so far as that simply to heare them was vnlawfull , but to follow them blindely with out examining of that which they sayd by the word of God , such heedlesse and vndiscreete hearing and following is forbidden , to heare them as the Beraeans heard Paul was not vnlawfull . And if blinde guides are to be taken heed of , then we do further appeale vnto the conscience of the indifferent reader whether it were a safer thing to submit vnto the teaching of Mr. Brightman or of Delescluse his censurer , to heare such as M. Perkins , Mr. Greeneham , M. Phillips & such like teachers or to commit their soules to the instruction of Thomas Cocky , Ihon Hales , Francis Iesop and such like blinde guides as do leade both Mr. Ainsworth himself and his whole company , Let those that know these two sorts of guides consider duely of the matter . 38. THe tenth speech of Mr. Brightman he setteth downe on this manner , finally the angell of the Church of England is both a pexsecuter of the brethren and a deceyver of the prince . VVhence he inferreth with an exclamation , Marvelous , and is he still for all this the angell of the Church in Mr. Brightmans iudgement ? In mine doubtlesse he is altogather otherwise , even that angell of the bottomlesse pit , who is a king over those locustes etc. The ministers of the Iewish Church in Christes time were both persecutours of the brethren and deceyvers of the princes and Governours , and yet were still the angell of that Church . They persecuted Christe and sought to murder him , they seduced Pilate and brought him against his owne conscience to condemne Christe , Luk. 23. 23. 24. Yet was not separation required , neither yet did the faithfull reiect their comunion . Secondly is not the angell of the separation both a persequ●tour of the brethren and a deceyver or the prince ? Yes certenly , for the first 〈◊〉 ●hey persequute one an other both in Worde and deede : Their hard speeches of one other are manifold , they scorne one an other and laugh at one an other . They do also mutually Iudge , condemne , and excommunicate one an other : for the second poynt , of deceyving the prince , it is most evident in speciall in their apology dedicated vnto the kings majestie , wherein as much as in them lay , they have sought to draw him vnto errour : This appeareth by Mr. Iohnsons owne confession and recantation wherein he hath recalled sundry of his errours conteyned in that booke : But the Ainsworthians do still persist notwithstanding the admonition given by Mr. Iohnson : So that by this reason the separatists themselves are to be separated from ; we see hereby how the peece of ordinance wherewith they shoote at others doth recoyle vpon themselves & wound their owne communion . 39. NOw remaines the conclusion of this writing to be considred , where after the rehersall of Mr. Brightm . his wordes declaring their wicked and blasphemous errour , who do so fall away from this church as if Christe were banished wholly from hence etc ▪ Delescluse doth then cry out against him ; And so by this what soever sinnes , errours , wickednesses , abhominatiōs he hath shewed before to be both in the angell and in the church it self , all is now cured by this salve : 〈◊〉 most miserable dawbing with vntempered morter . First , note his false dealing and abuse of Mr. Br. as though he had sayd or meant that all the sinnes , errours & corruptions of the church of England had bene cured & salved by this his testimony against the separation ; as though he could not have reproved the schisme of the Brownistes from the church of England , except he had allowed all the corruptions therein ; whereas on the contrary we have shewed how vainely and senselessely Delescluse hath trifeled to prove a separation from the allegations and testimonies of Mr Brightman above noted : Yea even in this very place Mr. Br. telleth vs in expresse wordes that we may neither take ▪ pleasure in them as some mayntainers of those corrup doe , neither may we forsake and fall from the church as the Brownistes doe , he shewes in the same place that he wisheth health of minde vnto both these sorts that are in a contrary extremity : And this his wish shewes that he thought these co●●uptions still to be vncured , & therfore is he most iniuriously charged with the contrary by Delescluse . Secondly , as for his exclamation of most miserable dawbing with vntem●●●ed morter it is a notable instance of the impudency of the Brownistes , who in the middes of their ignorance , do so boldly open a mouth against the learnedest ministers in the churches of God : And much more iustly may it be returned vpon Delescluse his owne head , whose consequences & collections for separatiō from Mr. Br. his speeches are all of them vntempered morter & all his reasoning a most mise●●● dawbing : The iniquity of this his exclamation may easily be seene in this that he doth not refute Mr. Br. his reasons alledged in this place but passes thē over in silence : Mr. Br. shewes of Laodicea that though the angell thereof was miserable and poore and blinde and naked yet communion was lawfull , Christ still supped with the same , he shewes withall that though the like misery be also found in England , as being the Antitype of Laodicea , yet that there is a presence of Christe communicating with them , which he proves further from the experience of the Brownistes themselves compared with the scriptures Rom. 10. 13. etc. Rev. 3. 20. It had bene fitter for del . to have given a sound answer vnto these reasons then with a sound of wordes to have made so lowde an exclamation . Thirdly , by the private and publique confession and testimony of Delescluse there is a miserable dawbing with vntempred morter among the Brownistes themselves , for this Del. hath often avouched and affirmed that there is but one sound warrant and example in the scriptures to stay men from anabaptisme , namely the example of the apostate Israelites that were not recircumcised when they ioyned againe with Iudah in the worship of God , were it not for this example , he sayth that he himself would be rebaptised : If this be true that he sayth , then is both Mr. Clifton and Mr. Iohnson a miserable dawber seing they † both have vsed many other arguments and a multitude of scriptures against rebaptisation : If there be but one sound argument , then all the other are vnsound and false , and consequently vntempered morter : Now these other reasons being vsed by the Franciscanes while he was yet among them , why did he not testify against their vn sound doctrine and convince them of their errour ? how could he endure to see such a number of holy scriptures perverted , falsifyed and abused by Mr. Ioh. and Mr. Clift . and yet hold his peace ? how could he suffer them to give so great advantage vnto Mr. Smith and other anabaptistes by alledging against them so many colourable pretences and shadowes of reason wherein he thought there was no substance ? VVhat sincerity is there in the course of these men that see one an others daubing & yet wink at the same ? VVhy may we not think that Delesc . doth now also discerne ād behold some dawbing in Mr. Ainsw . Tho. Cocky , Ioh. Hales and that he winkes at it as he did before in Mr. Ioh. and Mr. Clifton ? Thus may we here see touching Delescluse the onely governing elder of the Ainsworthians , that as there is but one step betwixt him and anabaptisme by his owne confession , so is there never a step betwixt him and the path of hypocrisye ; he that sees his fellowes dawbing with vntempered morter and lets them alone in their sin , must needes be a miserable dawber himself , he that professeth himself a separatist from all knowne sinners , and yet sees his fellowes sinning openly in print , by abusing the scriptures in great measure and still continuing in this offence and yet tolerates them herein , how can he be esteemed otherwise then as an apparant hypocrite ? 40. ONce more he yet renewes his former reasoning and exclaming & sayth vnto vs : Can any preach in the office of an angell purely and sincerely who is a theefe and a robber ? shall any administer purely who is not lawfully called therevnto as Aaron was ? Can any vnlawfull minister administer lawfully the seales of Gods covenant vnto dogges and swyne purely and sincerely ? O ceasse to do evill , learne to do good ! God who is iealous etc. For the substance of this obiection it is twise answered before , section 18. & 36. yet for the further stopping of his wide mouth that without cause talketh so much of theeves , robbers , vnlawfull ministers , dogges , swine etc. we do here demand of him , can any preach in the office of an angell purely , and sincerely who is an apostata and hath for saken the most holy fayth as H. A. in the account of all the Brownistes hath done ? Can any administer purely who for their schisme have bene deposed from their ministery continuing still in their schisme as H. A. and this Del. have bene ? Can the seales of Gods covenant be administred purely & sincerely vnto such as are reiected as dogges & swine , vnto such as William Clerke , Richard Benet , George Parker etc. who for their sin & wickednes are excommunicated by Mr. Iohnson & his company & consequently esteemed as dogges & swine though yet reteyned in communion by Mr. Ainsworthes company which by this meanes in the iudgement of the Brownists themselves is become a stye of swine & one body with excommunicates ? shall those who by the Franciscanes are accounted vnworthy to gather vp the crummes vnder their table , become stewards of the house to break the bread vnto the children of the Ainsworthians ? shall those that are iudged vnworthy to heare the worde , be allowed for prophets to preach the word ? Yet thus it is in Thomas Cocky and Iohn Hales , who being by Mr. Iohnson & his company delivered vnto satan are yet set vp for prophets by Mr. Ainsworth and his company to draw men from those snares of Satan wherein themselves do ly enwrapped . 41. AFter this he seekes to lay two great sinnes vpon Mr. Brightman for charging them with blasphemous errour &c. And first , he would shew him to be a persecutour of the brethren & that in these wordes ; for what greater persecution could he put vpon those poore soules which have separated thēselves from those evilles by himself set downe , then to accuse or charge them of blasphemy ? Yea it is such a persecution as that it is vnto death , for by the law of God a blasphemer must doe . First , it is no sin of persequution to impute blasphemy vnto those that iustly deserve the same , for Luke and Paul and Iames did charge sundry men with blasphemy and yet were not to be accounted persequutors for the same as may appeare , Act. 18. 6. 1. Tim. 1. 20. Ian. 2. 7. And seing Delescluse hath not proved Mr. Brightmans accusation to be vniust vpon them , he can not iustly charge him with persecution . Secondly , suppose Mr. Br. had bene a persequutor of the Brownistes in this speech , yet is he not a persecutour of the brethren so as Delescluse chargeth him , & so as Mr. Br. noted the angell of the church of England to be in persequuting their brethren that do remaine in communion with them , because the Brownistes neither in their owne account nor in Mr. Br. account are brethren , but such as separate from the fellowship of the faithfull brethren . Thirdly , suppose Mr. B. had bene a persecutour of the brethren , yet not vnto death as Delescluse doth write , for the law of God doth not simply and generally require that every blasphemer should dye as this ignorant and inconsiderate person doth affirme by his false application of the sentence of the law vnto Mr. brightmans speech : The law requireth that he which curseth his God and blasphemeth the name of the Lord shal be put to death Lev. 24. 15. 16. but besides this high degree of blasphemy , there were many kindes of blasphemy not punishable with death by the law : Every reproch , slander & evill speech either of a mans brother , or any part of Gods truth may iustly according to the scriptures be called blasphemy as hath bene signified & shewed ūto vs frō these places , Mat. 15. 19. Eph. 4. 31. Tit. 3. 2. 2. Pet. 2. 12. Iude , 10. And who will say , that all these sinnes were to be punished with death by the magistrate ? Fourthly , suppose Mr. B. had persecuted them to the death , yet might there have bene a greater persecution contrary to that which Delescluse by his question doth here pretend , in saying , what greater persecution could he put vpon those poore foules etc. for there are divers kindes of death , some are more painefull & shamefull then others & some persons are more to be detested in death then others ; And those that do vniustly lay vpon men the vilest death are greater persequutours then some others that yet put men to death also : And in speciall many of the Brownistes are greater persequutours of vs then Delescluse dare yet for shame pretend against Mr. B. for divers of them blush not to say that we have sinned against the holy ghoste , that no place of repentance is left vnto vs and all this for testifying against their schisme : Now blasphemy against the holy ghost being greater then other blasphemy , Matt. 12. 31. Luk. 12. 10. It may hence appeare that they are greater persequutours of vs , then Mr. Br. is of them , seing in their blinde and rash moode they charge vs with greater blasphemy , then Mr. Br. doth them . Lalstly , if imputation of blasphemy be persequution vnto death , then are the Brownistes themselves deadly persequutours of one an other : for to omit manifold other proofes hereof , they do mutually testify of one an other as of false churches : Mr. Iohnson & his company say of Mr. Ainsworth & his company that they are a schisme and no true church : Againe Mr. Ainsw . & his people do reiect Mr. Iohnsons company , yea divers of the Ainsworthians do affirme of the Franciscanes , that they are worse then the worlde : If some other● should thus speake of them , they would account them vncircumcised Ph●●●nes , rayling on the host of the living God , * blaspheming the name of the Lord & his tabernackle &c. And thus to bring the collection of Delescluse vpon his owne pate , we may say vnto him according to his owne reason , who be greater persequutours of the Brownistes then they themselves are mutually vnto one an other ? Do they not seek one an others blood in making one an other blasphemers ? The saying of † Zophar the Naamathite is verifyed vpon them : The bow of steele striketh them through , the arrow is drawen out & cometh forth of the body & shineth of their gall : The Gall of their owne persecution , the arrow of their owne obiection woundeth their owne sides & is coloured with their blood , so that here we may also apply vnto Delesc . that which Mr. Ainsworth once * wrote against Mr. Smith , How Delescluse is snared in the worke of his owne handes & in his owne obiections , is worthy to be noted with † Higgaion Selah , & meditated to the praise of God. 42. THe second sin which he layeth vpon Mr. B. is this to be a deceyver of the prince , which he notes in this particular for writing against them : And how he hath also deceyved the princes , he and others of his minde by causing them to banish and keep in banishment their most loyall and faithfull subiectes . For deceyving the prince which he obiecteth , let him know that though Mr. Brightman had more particularly pleaded against them and for their banishment also , yet had he bene no deceyver therein , let Delescluse prove this his consequence . As touching the causes of their banishment , it is cheefely to be layd vpon those that have bene the * hee goates of the separation : These by their deceitfull reasons & perswasions have mislead & seduced many simple persons and have sought out reasons of banishment and misery vnto many by leading them vnto schisme : Let those that are yet alive bewaile their offence herein . Thirdly , seing the Brownistes themselves do now mutually abandon one an others company why do they blame others for doing such thinges as themselves do practise ? Their reiection of one an other is now more grevous then banishment , whiles they banish one an other from the pledges & seales of Gods covenant ▪ Yea the church of England shewes more favour and kindenes vnto the Brownistes thē the Francis●anes & the Ainsworthians do vnto one an other , whiles they do both reiect those that are present at the worship or ministery of th' other , & do also refuse many of them to eate one with an other : Do they not now by their owne example teach the magistrates & princes vnder which they live to reiect & banish them also ? Fourthly , whereas the Francis●anes do now professe that at May next they purpose to remoove their habitation & to go & dwell at Embden , divers of the Ainsworthians do affirme that they have so behaved themselves in the place where they now dwell that they are ashamed to tary there any longer , & therfore that it is time for them to remove and to be gone thence : If these thinges be so then is it not the deceit of Mr. Br. & others of his minde to procure their banishment as Delescluse obiecteth , but it is the shame of their owne wicked conversation that doth banish the Brownistes & drive them from one place to an other . Fiftly , to make it plaine & evident what minde the Brownistes have to banish one an other , let vs here consider what the Ainsworthians have * written against the Franciscanes & given vnto those arbiters appoynted by the magistrates for the hearing of their strife about their meeting house : A way of peace by these themselves propounded and by the church of Leyden and vs agreed to , these after reversed and stood not vnto vnlesse we would goe dwell out of the city : And although in the treatie of the agreement , it was testifyed by the elders of that church , that vnlesse it were to the apparant vndoing of vs and of our families , we should not be dismissed againe to dwell here : Yet because we would not absolutely promise to leave this citie , they would not stand to the agreement which themselves had made . Besides the accusation of falshood , & covenant-breaking here noted , observe also the cruelty of the Franciscanes in seeking to banish the Ainsworthians & to have them out of the citie ( as they complaine ) though it were to the apparant vndoing of them and their families : Is not this a mercilesse kinde of banishment that is sought by them ? do they not herein take one another by the throate with their vnpitifull handes ? May we not here see the truth of the wise mans saving ; * A poore man if he oppresse the poore is like a raging raine that leaveth no foode ? Yea the raging oppression of the Brownistes tendes to their apparant overthrow & vndoing even by their owne confession . And therfore as Delescluse throughout his advertisement doth draw his collections from Mr. Br. his wordes against the church of England , even so may we 〈◊〉 better reason condemne the Brownistes out of their 〈…〉 Thus may we shoote with the Brownistes in thie● owne bow , & wound them with their owne arrowes . Lastly , besides the degrees & kindes of banishment above noted , we do here demand of the Brownistes both of the Franciscanes & Ainsworthians , what they would doe if they had a magistrate according to their mindes , such an one as they have often wished for ; would they not then banish one an other persisting in those courses which they do now condemne mutually in one an other ? 〈◊〉 them answer vs plainely & sincerly vnto this question & then doubt we not , but even thereby also further to stop the mouth of Delescluse that is here so vn●●●ly opened with complaint against Mr. Brightman . 43. HAving thus set downe the sinnes of Mr. B. he comes in the next place to set downe the vertues of his owne schismaticall flocke , in these wordes ; And indeed although I am but a stranger vnto them and one of an other people , yet the truth caused me to speak thus in their behalf , that I know not any people at this day vnder the sunne more loyall and faithfull vnto their prince and country , and more zelous and religious towards God , then they are : First , being about to sound the trūpet of their praise , for defence of his modesty he telles vs that he is but a stranger vnto them and one of an other people ; but this is not enough to excuse his flattery & boasting , for though he be a stranger vnto thē as he is a french man , yet as he is a Brownist & a schismatique he is one of them , & therfore notwithstanding his different nation may be as partiall in praising of them as any other of thē & above many of them , in that he is an elder , a governour & a prophet among them : It had bene much more for their credit if some other of their neighbours had praised them , but this they want being esteemed both of the magistrates & ministers of the reformed churches to be a contentious sect ; And therfore while Delescluse being incorporate into their schisme doth thus extoll his frendes & brethren , it may iustly be sayd vnto him : * He that praiseth his frendes with a loude voyce rising early in the morning it shal be counted to him as a curse . Secondly , for the length of his comparison , in that he sayth , he knowes no people vnder the sunne more loyall etc. how vaine & foolish is this ? Though he know none in the east or west Indies more loyall then these , this is nothing to their praise because he knowes not those nations at all , nor many other far nearer which are yet all vnder the sunne : And thus this large comparison is nothing els but the lowde noyse of an idle commendation . Thirdly , for their commendable loyalty and faithfulnes vnto their prince and 〈◊〉 , how doth it appeare ? by what good token or argument can be demonstrate the 〈◊〉 ? Yea the contrary rather might be shewed by divers instances of sundry of them who have deceyved and 〈◊〉 both the prince of 〈◊〉 owne country of his right & the governours of these countries wherein they now live of their due also , insomuch that some being taken in their deceit & in their presumptuous transgression of the lawes have smarted for the same : And where then is their singular loyalty & faithfulnes ? Fourthly , for their zeale of religion where is it ? doth it not vanish into the smoke of contention ? Yea is it not confessed by many of them , that they neither feele in themselves nor see in others that zeale & comfort thereof which they felt & saw before their separation ? For this also we could alledge sundry witnesses of themselves besides our owne knowledge . 44. BVt he proceedes yet further to amplify his commendations & prayses of the zeale and religion in the Brownistes which as he sayth are seene in them and among them both privately and publiquely : Yea in such measure as that I am fully perswaded that they are and shal be if they continue faithfull vnto the end , that people by which chiefely Antichriste the man of sin shal be rooted out . Behold here the proude conceit that the Brownistes have of thēselves without all reason , it is much that such fantasies should enter into the head of Delescluse , it is more that they should be rooted therein with such full perswasion as he speakes of , it is yet more that he should not be ashamed to vtter , yea & in print to publish this his arrogant opinion , but most of all that his fellowes & his brethren should allow or tolerate in him this strange dreame or vision of vanitye : for whereas the Lord in his holy word hath noted vnto vs those honourable instruments by whom cheefely Antichriste is to be overthrowne , we desire Delescluse to shew vnto vs where the Brownistes are numbred among them : VVe see in the booke of the revelation that as the Lord in sundry visions hath there declared vnto vs the speciall instruments whereby Antichriste was to be exalted , so hath he also in other visions there described vnto vs those worthies and blessed instrumentes by whom cheefely he is againe to be cast downe : By the consent of the best ād learnedest interpreters there are noted out vnto vs in the Apocalyps divers estates both ecclesiasticall & civill that have wounded Antichriste , but no interpreter that ever yet could finde the Brownistes among them : VVe read of divers angelles fighting against Antichriste , Rev. 14. 6. 7. 8. 9. And these do fitly declare vnto vs such as Iohn Wickleffe , Iohn Husse , Hierome of Prage , Martin Luther & such like , but where be the angelles that may fiftly represent vnto vs Robert Browne , H. Barow , Francis Iohnson etc. VVe reade of divers that have obteyned sundry victories , conquestes and triumphes against Antichriste . Rev. 11. 15. 16. and 14. 14. 17. and 16. 1. and 17. 16. For the further vnderstanding whereof we desire the reader to consider & weigh Mr. Brightmans exposition of those places ; But where is the lot and roome of the Brownistes ? VVere is their atchievement registred among these cheefe instruments of the Lord ? Secondly , whereas he telles vs that this his full perswasion dependes vpon a condition viz. If they continue faithfull vnto the end , whereas also Mr. Iohnson & his followers doe now in the account of Delescluse slide back from their ancient faith & are already proved vnfaithfull , Mr. Robinison also halting betwixt them in some thinges , these thinges duely considred the full perswasiō of Delescluse may quickly turne into a faint perswasion and his vaine confidence into a wan-hope . 45. THe reason of his glorious perswasion touching the Brownistes he setteth downe in these wordes : For by that purity of doctrine which they do teach and by the sincere and publique administration of the glorious kingdome of Christe publiquely and before all the people ; as also by professing that glorious liberty in the gospell , that if any sin be shewed or manifested vnto them by the word of God , is amended whatsoever opposition may be to the contrary , by those thinges I say by them professed practised and taught , it is imposible that where they have place , Antichriste can or have any doore to come in . First , for their purity of doctrine , they have no groundes of pure doctrine which other churches of Christ round about them have not as well as they , VVhy do they exalt themselves in that which others have as well as they and before them ? Other churches have this doctrine also in better and more abundant maner then they ; for H. A. I. Delescluse , Thomas Cocky , Iohn Hales and such like prophets do not teach the pure doctrine with half that purity , grace , power & fruite that the ministers of other churches doe . Besides their ignorance , their doctrine is divers wayes impure & mixt with sundry errours , new doctrines & faithes leading vnto schisme & confusion & is therfore in part recanted by Mr. Iohnson . For their glorious liberty in their publique administration the anabaptists may boast thereof as much as they , seing the anabaptistes are as publique in their administration as the Brownistes and the brownistes are but followers of them therein as they are also in the most or all those thinges , wherein they differ from vs. For their sincere administration thereof against all opposition whatsoever as he boasteth , how vaine is it ? Before the schisme of the Ainsworthians from the Franciscanes , the sinnes and * scandalles of Daniel Studly were shewed and manifested by divers of the Ainsworthians & yet such opposition was made against them as that Da. Studly did neither soundly repent nor loose his office from which he is now deposed : That which the popular governement could not then effect , is now effected since that governement was changed by Mr. Iohnson . VVhereas he sayth that Anti-christe cannot have any doore to come in , where those thinges by them professed and practised have any place , it is also false : for suppose the doctrine and discipline of the Brownistes were both of them pure , even as pure as in the apostles times yet might Antichriste finde a doore to come in by , as well as he did in the time of the apostles , where there were better meanes to keep him out , then the Brownistes now have , see 1. Ioh. 2. 18. 2. Thess . 2. 7. Suppose the Romish Antichriste have no dore to come in by among the Ainsworthians , yet while they open a doore to the Anabaptistes to come in amōg them , what avayleth it ? That such a doore is opened by them see the testimony of the * Franciscanes , who charge Mr. Ainsworth and his company with this evill . 46. MOreover he addeth further in praise of the Brownistes : And for my part I do blesse the day in which I had that grace from my God to know both the people and their faithfull walking in their wayes and religion of God. If a stranger meete with this booke of Delescluse he may be divers wayes deceyved by him in this deceitfull speech : for if he know not that the Brownistes are broken and rent in the middes falling one from an other , then by this false report of Delesc . he may be drawne to think that the Brownistes do faithfully cleave vnto one an other and walke constantly in their wayes without schisming from one an other , which is most vntrue . And further againe if a stranger do know that they are rent a sunder , and yet withall know not of what side Delescluse is , then shall the stranger be left in vncertainty not knowing whether he meane the Franciscanes or Ainsworthians to be that faithfull people , hereafter therfore let Delescluse learne to speak more plainely and to avoyd his deceitfull speeches ; for ought that he hath here written he might be taken for a Franciscane and so his faction might loose that praise of faithfullnes which he intendeth for them . 47. DRawing to an end he seales vp his booke with this prayer for the brownistes ; I beseech the Lord of his grace even with teares that he vouchsafe to open the eyes of their most noble and wise prince that he may see the iustice and equity of their cause and cavse them to see his royall face and presence againe with ioy and gladnes of heart vnder his dominions and iurisdictions , Amen . In this prayer or forme of prayer , observe first how he dishonours the Lord and takes his name in vayne by praying for the manifestation of the iustice and equity of their cause which is so full of iniustice and iniquitye : As Saul took the name of God in vayne by his blessing the Ziphims for their shew of compassion which indeed was cruelty 1. Sam. 23. 21. So doth Delescluse by blessing of the brownistes for the equity of their cause which is indeed a meere iniquity . Secondly , mark here his vaine publishing of his owne devotion & zeale , viz. his praying with teares , yet is it no sound commendation of himself while his teares are spent in such a cause : Delescluse may remember since he was a Papist that many of those idolatours in their superstitious devotion do often times weepe & powre forth their teares before their idolles & images : As those teares can not iustify their devotion , no more can these teares powred forth by Delescluse for the idoll of their separation iustify his devotion . Thirdly , mark his flattery of the king calling him their most noble and wise prince : It is the property of true nobility to try the spirits of men by the scripture , as the beraeans did Act. 17. 11. If therfore he be noble and most noble they will not deny but that he hath examined their spirits & the scriptures alledged by them & presented vnto his maiesty in their petitions ; & then withall if he be most wise how is it that he can not see the mysterie of their separation having their cheefe reasons & proofes layd open before him ? Yea by the sentence of this Delesc . there is nothing to be * expected by him from Christe but the powring out of his aeternall wrath vpon him , nothing as touching his visible estate but aeternall flames of everlasting damnation , If this be his abiect & base estate , how is he most noble or most wise . Fourthly , we do here demand of Delescluse touching this his prayer , whether it be lawfull for any of his flock in the reading of his booke & withall of this his prayer therein to lift vp their hearts vnto the Lord , to desire the same thing & to say Amen with him vnto this his petition : If they may not , then is it a sory prayer which may not be assented vnto by an other , & then is he a sory guide to go before his flock in such desires as it is not lawfull for them to folow him ; but if they may pray the same thing with him & in the reading of his wordes may say Amen vnto his wish , then consider on th' other side how according to the doctrine of the Brownistes , he makes himself guilty of idolatry , for they tell vs that read prayer and set formes of prayer are idolles & the vse of them idolatry , Mr. Ain●worth in speciall hath compared them to the golden calves that Ie●oboam erected , & if this be so then hath Delescluse here in the end of his booke set vp a golden calfe by setting downe this forme of prayer & then all the Brownistes that in the reading thereof do lift vp their hearts in prayer to desire the same thing , all these ( we say ) do then bow downe vnto his calfe & worship the same and so commit idolatry . 48. HAsting to a finall conclusion he sayth ; And so ●do here end though many more thinges might be sayd touching separation from evill , and adioyning or following that which is good : Mark here how he paynts the face of his separation , in calling it a separation from evill etc. whereas indeed it is a separation from that which is good because of some evill mixed therewith ▪ & a reiection of the godly for the wicked sake which is a thing most wicked , Gen. 18. 25. Here he will end but it had bene better for him not to have begun : He telles vs many more thinges might be sayd touching separation , we tell him also that many more thinges may be sayd against the same : The iudicious reader may easily discerne that in all these arrowes which he hath shot he hath still missed the marke , his bow of brasse is broken & all his vaine reasoninges against Mr. Bright ▪ are turned vpon his owne head : If he have more thinges to say hereafter let him see that they be of more weight then these . 49. LAst of all he addeth : And in deed in a word we shall not read from the beginning of the world to this day that there was ever any true church of God truely established but by separation : and therfore this people not to be blasphemers but true worshippers of God. Behold here a heape of falshood couched vp togather in a few wordes for a farewell to his reader : For first , it is false which he sayth of establishing churches by separation from the beginning of the world : Let him shew how the church of God before the flood was established by such a separation as the Brownistes have in their writinges described vnto vs : we have here his bare word onely which is of no credit , his asseveration here vsed by him , viz. in deed in a word is but a word without deed & without truth . Secondly , it is false which he sayth of establishing true churches by separation vnto this day : And this not onely in respect of the church of England which by Mr. Iohnsons confession is a true church though not established by the separation of the B●ownistes , but also in respect of the dutch & french churches which by the Brownistes them selves are acknow●ledged for true churches & yet were not establis●hed by the separation in question : Yea they do reiect & condemne the separation of the Brownistes as schisme : Do these churches then practise and reteyne a separation without their knowledge , against their willes & contrary to their doctrine ? Or if they do thus maintaine a separation not being aware thereof , shall this vnwitting & vnwilling separation be a true ground & foundation of their church ? shall their ignorant practise establish them & iustify their estate ? we would faine know of Delescluse how these thinges can stand sound . Thirdly , suppose this assertion of his touching separation were true , yet his inference therevpon is false , in that he sayth and therfore this people not to be blasphemers : Though a man hold separation yet may he be a blasphemer in many other respectes : For example , Mr. Smith holding the separation of the Brownistes was yet a blasphemer for that which he wrote against the vse of the translated & originall scriptures in the worship of God. And so Mr. Ihonson still holding the separation is yet by the Ainsworthians accounted a blasphemer , one that speakes evill of the way of God , in respect of his new interpretation of Mat. 18. Delescluse reasons here as though there was no blasphemy but against separation , how blindely & partially let the reader iudge . Fourthly , he bringes yet an other false inference from the former assertion , in saying , & therfore this people not to be blasphemers but true worshippers of God : for the former assertion touching separation is mainteyned by Anabaptistes yea & by some of the Arrians , doth it herevpon follow that they are true worshippers of God ? Nothing lesse : Yet such is the fruit of Delescluse his reasoning ▪ further whereas the Brownistes do acknowledge the dutch & french churches to be a separate people & true churches established by separation & yet condemne the read prayer vsed by them as being a false and idolatrous worship , it may hence appeare evidently that his argument for proofe of their true worship is very vaine and false : He may here see that the truth of Gods worship doth not depend vpon separation . Prov. 12. 15. The vvay of a foole is right in his ovvne eyes : But he that heareth counsell is vvise . Errata . PAg. 3. l. 31. reade thinges . pag. 6. l. 18. and to convert them from going 〈◊〉 , p. 7. li. 15. dealing . pag. 11. l. 15. therfore . p. 13. l. 5. affirmation . p. 18. l. 15. for . pag. 19. in the margent read , ●ev . chap. 3. p. 19. l. 39. preferre pag. 25. l. 39. knoweth p. 28. l. 26. corruptions . pag. ●0 . l. 17. for . pag. 35. l. 34. fuly . FINIS . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A01099-e460 * Epist . to Read. pag. 3. * Ps . 43. 1. 2 3. 4. Esa . 1. 10. Ma● . 26. ●7 Act. 3. 1. * Ps . 119. ● 128. 1. Tim. 5. ●1 . * Advertisemēt pag. 5 Pag. 8. 9. Answ . 1. * R. Clift . answ . to Mr. Sm. 154. 155. H. Ains . counterp . pag. 7. 8. 2. ●dvertis . ●ig . 9. ●nsw . 2. 3. Answ . 1. 2. * Answ . to to Mr. Ber. pag. 187. Parallel . pag. 61. 3. Answ . 2. 3. Advertis . ●ag . 9. Answ . Ob. Answ . ● . 2. Except . Ans . to Mr. Iac. pag. 7. 8. Answ . 1. 2. 3. Answ . to Mr. Iac. pag. 7. 8. 4. Advertis . pag. 5. & ● Answ . ●●vertis . ●5 . & 10. ●●sw . ●nsw . Answ . to Mr. Stone , pag. 2. Advert●s . pag. 10. ●●●w . 1 2 * ●dvertis . ●●g . 5. † See lati●●●e edition ●f Mr. B. ●●n kev. cha 〈◊〉 . vers . 15. ●ag . 106. 3. 〈…〉 * Adverti●● pag. 10. Answ . 1. 2. Adver●● . pag. 11. Answ . 1. 2. Expos . of ●●at . 18. ●●pist . ●dvertis . ●ag . 14. Advertis . pag. ●1 . * Advert pag. 3. & ●… Advertis● p. 6. & 1●… Answ . 1● 2. ●dvertis . ●●pist . p. 3. ●dvertis . ●●g . 12. Answ . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 3. Advertis . p. 7. & 12 ▪ 13. Answ . 1. 2. Advertis . pag. 13. Answ . 1. 2. 3 Advertis pag. 13. ●nsw . 1. 2. 3. Advertis . 〈◊〉 . 7. & 13 ●●sw . 1. 2. Advertis . pag. 13. 14 Answ . 1. 2. 3. Plea for ●●fa●ts , p. 〈◊〉 49. etc. ●●rief treat . ●●●gt anaba . 〈◊〉 . 16. etc. Adverti●… . pag. 1● . Answ . Advertis . pag. 14. Answ . 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. See 〈◊〉 of 〈…〉 . Iob. 20. 2● 25. Ans . to M● Sm. pa. 4● Psal . 9. 1● Advertis . pag. 14. Answ . 1. 2. Rob. Bro●ne . H. Barow . Fran. Iohnsō H. Ainsworth Iohn Smith Iohn Robinsō &c. 3. 4. 5. ●ee profa●● eschisme ●f Brown. ●ag . 81. Prov. 28. 3 6. Advertis . pag. 14. Answ . 1. Pro. 27. 1. 2. 3. 4. ●●vertis . 14. ●●sw . 1. 2. Advertis . pag. 15. Answ . 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. ●●nting 〈◊〉 fox , 〈◊〉 . 1. 6. 7. ●rofane ●●hisme of ●●ownist . ●ag . 80. Advertis . 〈◊〉 15. Answ . 1. 2. Advertis . pag. 15. Answ . 1. 2. 3. Advertis . pa. 9. & 11 4. Advertis . pa. 15. Answ . Advertis . pag. 15. Answ . 1. 2. 3. 4.