Eubulus, or A dialogue, where-in a rugged Romish rhyme, (inscrybed, Catholicke questions, to the Protestaut [sic]) is confuted, and the questions there-of answered. By P.A. Forbes, Patrick, 1564-1635. 1627 Approx. 336 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 81 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2003-09 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A01042 STC 11147 ESTC S102413 99838198 99838198 2564 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A01042) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 2564) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1475-1640 ; 887:08) Eubulus, or A dialogue, where-in a rugged Romish rhyme, (inscrybed, Catholicke questions, to the Protestaut [sic]) is confuted, and the questions there-of answered. By P.A. Forbes, Patrick, 1564-1635. 166, [2] p. Printed by Edward Raban, dwelling vpon the Market-place, at the towns arms, Aberdene : 1627. P.A. = Patricius Aberdonensis? i.e. Patrick Forbes. Prints and replies to a version of the verses appended to the anonymous "The love of the soule" (STC 17505). With a final errata leaf. Reproduction of the original in the British Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. 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Love of the soule. 2003-06 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2003-06 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2003-07 Jonathan Blaney Sampled and proofread 2003-07 Jonathan Blaney Text and markup reviewed and edited 2003-08 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion EUBULUS , OR A DIALOGVE , Where-in a rugged Romish Ryme , ( inscrybed , Catholicke Questions , to the Protestant ) is confuted , and the Questions there-of answered . BY P. A. Answere a Foole to his foolishnesse , lest hee bee wyse in his owne conceit . Proverbs , 26. 5. ABERDENE , PRINTED BY EDWARD RABAN , Dwelling vpon the Market-place , At the Towns Arms , 1627. WITH PRIVILEDGE . TO THE MOST HONOVRABLE , VERTVOVS , and Christian Ladie , ANNA , LADIE GORDON , &c. OF this DIALOGVE , ( MADAME ) written , now , thirteene Yeares a-goe , no more was , at that tyme , intended , but a few Manuscripts , for satisfying some Godlie Myndes , and obviating the insolencie of some ignorant , and ydle Humours ; foolishlie glorying of nothing : Yet , even so , was it bolde , then , to betake it selfe to the shadow of Your most Honourable NAME , though it never had yet the Cowrage , to present it selfe , to a Kisse of Your Hands : and , perhaps , had lyen buried in this its Shamefastnesse , for ever , if , vpon the renewed impudent Importunitie , of the same sort of Men , at the instant desyre of some well-affected Christians , it did not now come out , to a more publicke view of the World. In which case , if it should eyther neglect , or disclayme , so Noble ( an Ones acclaymed ) Patrocinie ; al-be-it there-by could bee no imparement to Your Honour , ( to whose great worth manie such Dedications can adde no lustre : ) yet , were it some Disgrace , to the Treatise it selfe , and , discredite , al-so , to the Author thereof ; who yet liveth no lesse affected , than ever , to serue Your Ladiship in the LORD . Receiue , then , that which is Your owne ; as a poore , but an vpright Token , how farre the Author , and all of his Calling , account them-selues obliedged , to giue Your Honour , all Heartening , and Encowragement , for cleaving , so constantlie , ( agaynst manyfolde assaultes and temptations ) to that Trueth , which , heerein , is defended . The GOD of all Trueth , still more and more , stablish , strengthen , and confirme You there-in : blesse Your most Honourable Lord , and You , with all Happinesse , heere ; and , bring You both , in ende , to Eternall Blessednesse , with HIM-SELFE , in the Heavens . YOVR LADISHIPS Humble Servant , P. A. TO THE READER . IT may , perhaps , ( Christian Reader ) appeare strange to thee , and little beseeming my Place and Age , that I deigne , so ridiculous a Ryme , with so large an Answere , yea , with anie Answere at all . But , so it fell out , that , now , aboue thirteene years a-goe , the perverse Sedulitie , of seducing Priests , and the foolish Insolencie , of ignoran●… Souls , seduced by them , and vaynlie glorying of this their Ballad , which numbers of them had continuallie in their mouthes , who never had eyther read , or gotten by heart , anie one Psalme of David , did worke , in a certayne verie honourable , and worthie Noble Man , such holie Indignation agaynst the one , and pittifull Compassion of the other , as made him seriouslie solicite me , to make some Answere there-to . Which to doe , I was induced by his Intreatie , though much agaynst myne owne Disposition . Who , as I loue , and commend the accurate Inquisition , and clearing of Trueth , by calme , and Christian Conference , and sober , and sedulous Indagation : So , from myne Heart , I ever abborred all litigious Contestation , in what-so-ever Argument ; but , most of all , in matters of Religion , And yet , such is the miserable mishap of our tyme , or rather , of mad Humours in our-time , that nothing is so bitterly , and with so great Heat , Passion , and damnable spyte , debated , as are poyntes of Divinitie . And , this intemperie , hath so farre , in common , taken all myndes , as that all Christianitie , is now turned in odious , and humourous Disputation : and all , both Men and Women , will be , for-sooth , of a partie ; all-be-it most part of them so ignorant , as they know neyther what they holde , or what they impugne : no more vnderstāding what they speake of , than doe Pyo●…s , or Parockets , those wordes which they are taught to prattle . And , withall , so carrying in all their other Conversation , as it is both shame , & sinne , that they should be so and acious , as to take anie such . Argument in their mouthes , who hate to be reformed ; and , in all their wayes make not Conscience of anie Sinne. Yet , they are incessantlie holde , to mooue Questions of Religion : who , beeing posed agayne , can not answere to the simple questions of the Childrens Catechisme . Thus , be at of Disputation , hath not onlie cooled , but even , all-most , extinguished all Devotion : and , not only breedeth Stryfe ; but even , all-where , breaketh out to more vngodlinesse . You shall hardlie fall now in anie fellowship , where you shall not heare some one , or other , question of Religion , egarlie , prophanelie , & miserablie torne , and tossed , amōgst such and acious , and impure mouthes , as neyther inwardly in their Souls , 〈◊〉 ●…ny sense , or outwardlie in their carriage , anie practise of true Religion . Will you talke with these Questioners , of true Pietie , of Fayth , of Regeneration , of Christian lyfe , of Mortification , & subduing our affections , of Christian patience , of the worke of GOD'S Spirit in our Soules , for those effectes , of the joyes of the holie Ghost ; or , finallie , of anie case of Conscience : they shall stand as dumbe , as Fishes : you shal be to them a Barbarian , & a●… strange , as one speaking Aethiopian , to an Yrish . With whom , though I ▪ haue no delight to deale in this sort , yet the mouthers of perverse men , must bee stopped : Baal's Priests must bee checked , with holie scorne ; and Fools must be some-tymes answered to their follie , lest they should appeare wyse in their owne conceits . Now , as for these Reasons , I ( having my service then assigned me in those Quarters , where this Folli●… brake foorth ) was at that tyme stirred to wryte this Treatise , and , even then , to giue out some one , or two , Manuscripts there-of ; where-by to calme , some-what , those insolent Insulters ; and , to confirme godlie , though weake , Mynds : and , it having , accordinglie , in some measure , wrought that effect then : I , there-vpon , did cast it by hand , as , in myne owne Estimation , no more vsefull , or to be regarded . But , whyle now agayne , our Adversaries , of late , ( through too great indulgence , and connivence granted them ) haue risen to greater insolencie than before , and , impudentlie , repone to vs , not onlie the same Matter , but , al-so , in the same manner , shameleslie , and senseleslie , still blazing , al-where abroad , this their Proper Ballad , a●… if never anie thing had beene sayd there-vnto : divers well affected Brethren , ( knowing that I had a Copie there-of by me ) dealt instantlie with me , that this Treatise might be put to the PRESSE . For whose satisfaction , I haue given way to the Printing of it : wishing , heartilie , it may both please thee , and be profitable vnto thee , and all honest Hearts , seeking , in singlenesse , for Confirmation , and stablishment in Trueth : and praying GOD , that all of vs may seriouslie studie , not so much to Ydle , and vnprofitable Wranglings , as both to learne ourselues , and to teach others , that Doctrine , which is according to godlinesse ▪ Fare-well . THYNE , IN CHRIST , P. A. TO PHILADELPHUS . LOE , PHILADELPHVS , hovv Thy loue hath led mee , To penning of this PAMPHLET , for Thy pleasure : Where-of , vvith Reason , vvell I could haue fred mee , If this I durst , vvith Thy Contentment measure . It may seeme strange , that of my little leasure , I anie part vvaste on such Wares , so vaynlie : Where-in , all-bee-it vveake Women place a Treasure ; Yet hath their Poët playde the Foole so playnlie , As , if my Motiues bee not vvell esteemed , For ansvvering , I shall a Foole bee deemeed . Thyne Owne , EUBULUS . The Interlocutors . PROTESTANTES . PHILADELPHVS , EUBULUS , THERIOMACHVS , PAPISTES . PHILOMATHES , ERIPHILVS , EVBVLVS , OR , A DIALOGVE , Where-in a rugged Romish Ryme ( inscribed , A proper Ballad , contayning Catholicke Questions to the Protestant ) is confuted , and the Questions there-of answered . CHAPTER I. SOme personages of good qualitie , not long agoe , vvere in a Progresse , partly for recreation , and partlie for some necessarie Dueties , both towards GOD and Men : Amongst whom PHILADELPHUS and EUBULUS ( refreshed each greatlie with others fellowship ) did , ordinarilie , dryue over the tediousnesse of the way , with diverse , not vnprofitable , Discourses . A midst which , one day , at a certayne part of the Countrey , Philadelphus thus spake to Eubulus . Al-be-it it bee much against my mynde , to part from yo●… anie minute of tyme , yet heere I must controll myne owne affection , and craue you pardon , to divert a little , a side of our way , for saluting a tender Kins-woman ; where-in I shall vse such haste , as , GOD willing , in short space I shall bee with you . Eubulus . Sir , you haue reason , not to over-see her : and I will heere attende your returne vpon the way . Now , in little more than an houres space , Philadelphus , returning , had this Speach : How-so-ever I haue taken short tyme , yet in it , haue I learned some-what , which I can not but regrate vnto you . I haue beene visiting a Gentle-woman ( I may say ) of good parts other-wayes , but that , by the deceit of Seducers , her Heart is alienated from the Veritie of GOD HIS true Worship : Which , through the loue I beare her , so pierceth mee , as I could not choose , but , in the little Conference wee had , to aske her , why shee did so obstinatelie obfirme her mynde agaynst Trueth ? Shee answered mee , That shee could obtayne no Resolution to her Soule , of such Scruples , as chiefelie mooved her to abhorre our Communion ; al-be-it shee had so farre sought for it , that shee had delivered her Doubts , in writ , to their Minister , Theriomachus : vvho receiving them of her hand , with covenant of an Answere , yet had done nothing for his acquytall there-in . And , verilie , if you were acquaynted with her , you would thinke , that all paynes were carefullie to bee employed , where-by shee might bee reclaymed from Errour . Eubulus . I can not , but greatlie wonder at this you tell mee : for I know Theriomachus to be learned , in such measure , as hee might well anough haue acquyted him-selfe in ought shee had , in that matter , eyther requyred of him , or he promised vnto her . But it is well , that you haue made mee foreseene heere-with ; for I looke , that even heere Theriomachus shall set him-selfe to meete vs ; and so wee may there-by know of him the whole Case . Loe where hee commeth , exceeding opportunitie . GOD saue you , Brother Theriomachus . Theriomachus . The LORD blesse you both : and I am glad ●…o see you in these Quarters . Philadelphus . How doe you lyke ( Theriomachus ) of your Station heere ? Theriomachus . A Souldiour must obey his Captayne , and acquiesce in what-so-ever Station hee pleaseth to assigne him : for Hee is wysest , and well knoweth , what best fitteth everie one of vs. My Station hath taught mee , so experimentallie , what the Apostle meaned , by his fighting with Beasts at Ephesus , and I haue acquyred such both an actiue , and a passiue vnderstanding there-of , as I may bee bolde to say , I could wryte a large Commentarie vpon that place . Philadelphus . I take you well ( Theriomachus : ) you must haue patience : For , how-so-ever no part is so barren , but that it produceth some fine Spirits ; yet , in such a nature of Climate and Soyle as this is , it is no marvell , though the people , in common , haue some in-bred feritie , which , yet , Tyme and Travell may reduce to some more mansuetude . Theriomachus . You haue , Sir , in a part , but not thorowlie , taken vp my Case : For besides anie in-bred feritie , they are , most parte of them , inchaunted . Philadelphus . What! hath the Rodde of Cyrce touched them ? or hath anie Thessalonian cunning converted their shapes , and made them Asses of Men , as was Lucius Apuleius ? that it may seeme the fore-sight of this Fatalitie , hath made this your Parochin to bee named 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : and you , accordinglie , doe finde , that , in effect , they are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Yet , Theriomachus , you know , that Asses are peaceable and obsequious Beasts , readie to receiue Burdens , wherethrough your fight may bee the more easie . Theriomachus . But they are wilde Asses , and heare not the voyce of the Dryver : and are lyke to those Horses and Mules , whose Mouthes must bee bound vp with Bit and Brydle , lest they come neare vs. Yea , their Inchaunters haue so ' bewitched them , as they are maniable onlie to them , and wayward towardes all others . And they are even so contentedlie miserable , as they haue no desire to bee disinchaunted . Philadelphus , You tell vs wonders : For , thus , these Inchaunters should farre exceede all Cyrcees cunning , who , though shee turned the bodilie shape , yet could not bereaue the Inchaunted of their Myndes and Memories , but that they remembered still their proper state , and regrated , inwardlie , their present condition . And the Thessalonian Magicians , could worke no more on Lucius Apuleius . Theriomachus . You , yet , in a part , missconceiue mee . I meane not of anie turning of their bodilie shapes , which they retayne still , of Men , whyles yet their Mynds are miserablie metamorphosed . Haec venena potentius Detrahunt hominem sibi , Quae arcem penitus petunt , Nec nocentia corpori Mentis vulnere seviunt . Eubulus . Brother Theriomachus , you know , that , for making anie , who haue drunken Poyson , to vomit it agayne , sweete Milke , especiallie , must bee given them to drinke : and , for a Chylde , which hath beene misfostered , by sucking in corrupted Milke , you know , that healthsome greene Milke is the best Restoratiue . And thus onlie , in my judgement , you must labour , first , to disinchaunt this people , till , by consuetude , their feritie bee mittigated , and their Stomackes brought to beare more solide Nowrishment . And , as Philadelphus , even now , alluded , verie prettilie , to the name of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; so may the name of one most speciall place , here , warne vs , by Notation , what , both for it selfe , and for the rest , is requisite : even 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . It is our Lot , Brother , to bee amongst Briers and Thorns , and to dwell in the middes of Scorpions : and our LORD warned vs of our Condition , when Hee sent His Apostles , as Sheepe , in the middes of Wolues . There is none of our Calling , and truelie called , but , in some measure , hath this Battell with Beasts : For , as the feare of the LORD , and the keeping of His Commandements , is all the Man ; so a Man , even in honour , if hee vnderstand not , is but l●…ke the Beastes that perish . I must , indeede , confesse , that you ( Brother ) are more exercised than manie others : where-through we are holden in a singular care , to comfort you , and in-call GOD , for your vp-holding ; vvho is sufficientlie able to beare you out in that Service Hee hath put you in , and to furnish you Strength , according to the Burden Hee hath layde on you . But this our Digression vpon your Theriomachie , hath set vs a-side of that which principallie wee had to impart vnto you , and for which wee are speciallie glad , that we are so convenientlie conveaned . Then , turning Eye to Philadelphus ; Sir , you can best make relation , of that which you did latelie heare , and where-with , there-vpon , you did immediatelie acquaynt mee . Philadelphus . You know , Theriomachus , that the Ladie of yonder Place , is my tender Kins-woman , and is commended , for both Naturall and Civill Gifts ; for zeale also in Religion , but without knowledge . I asking her , this same day , vvhy shee did remayne so refractarie agaynst the Trueth ? Shee answered , That shee could finde no Resolution to her Soule , of such Doubts , as chiefelie moved her to abhorre our Communion ; al-be-it shee had so farre sought for it , that shee had delivered them to you , in writ : and that you , receiving them of her hand , vpon covenant of an Answere , yet had done nothing for your acquytall there-in ▪ So as this is not onelie an imputation to you , of fayling promise ; but it strengtheneth her also the more in Errour , while your ceasing maketh her think her Questions so strong , that you can finde nothing to answere to them . Theriomachus . The Commendation which that Ladie carrieth , for those partes you mention of her , I acknowledge to bee most just . It is true , shee delivered to mee some Questions , in writ ; to all which , in conference with her selfe , I answered , as farre , as in my judgement , might haue satisfied anie Soule , set singlie for Resolution . As for anie answere in writ , I neyther promised , and asking advise of my Brethren , of our Presbyterie , if it were expedient , and , in that case , offering there-to my paynes , they thought it no wayes convenient , to write anie thing against so ridiculous , and oft-times confuted , Cavillations . Eubulus . Haue you those Questions by you , that wee may see them ? Theriomachus . Heere they are . So taking out a sheete of paper , hee gaue it in Eubulus hands : vvho , vnfolding it , VVhat , Brother , this is a Ryme ? Theriomachus . So it is . Philadelphus . I pray you , Eubulus , let vs heare it . Then Eubulus , having read it over , with a sober Smyle , looked to Philadelphus , and sayde , VVhat doe you thinke , Sir , of these VVares ? Is there in them anie such matter of high boasting to our Adversaries , as that wee should be stirred , to make them answere ? Then , turning to Theriomachus , Truelie , Brother , I both reverence the wise judgement of the Presbyterie , and approue your acquiescing there-to . And , verilie , I both marvell , and greatlie pittie , that a person , other-wayes so well endewed , should bee misscarried with such foolish thinges : vvhich , al-be-it they haue beene manie times answered , by diverse , and that I haue latelie answered each of them particularlie , in my Defence of our Callinges , and Discoverie of the Adversaries Dotage , in the verie selfe Demands , in substance , sent to my selfe ; yet simple Soules are still borne in hand , That these , forsooth , are insoluble Knots . And it is , indeede , no marvell , that they delude so securelie , when , first , they haue brought their Disciples heere-to , That they neyther will reade what wee write , nor heare what wee teach . And if , perhaps , vpon anie such motion , as this is , from anie of them , wee fall to write ought , it is , immediatelie ( without anie eyther reading or pondering what we speake ) put in their Ghostlie Fathers handes : whose word syne , they take for the estimation it is to bee had in ; as I haue latelie learned , even by mine owne experience . Philadelphus . I can not denye , Eubulus , but you haue great reason to speake so : yet , in anie Case , I would , that one of you should say some-what to these Questions ; where-by , if the misscarried partie may not bee converted , ( as mine heartes desire were ) yet at least the Questioner his bragging may bee calmed some-what . Eubulus . For my pa●…t , I mynde not to answere ought , both because in mine other Treatises , I haue alreadie saide , what I esteemed needfull , ( whence anie , who in singlenesse seeketh Resolution , will not wearie to search it ) and because I ever abhorred such kinde of contestation : for that , what , or how oft so-ever wee answere , yet still the same thinges shall bee of new , and impudentlie , obtruded . If you , Brother Theriomachus , thinke it good , you may satisfie Philadelphus here-in : and the Adversarie's insolencie shall so answere for you , to your Brethren , as you neede not feare to finde them such severe Iudges , as was Manlius to his valiant Sonne . Theriomachus . What you judge , were ydle labour for you : how can I bee there-in laudablie occupyed ? if anie expediencie were of an Answere , it lyeth now most on you ; for mine imputation is past , and the next , vndoubtedlie , will bee yours . And as it can not escape their knowledge , that you haue both craved , and gotten , a sight of their Questions ; so this will bee their glorying , That from man to man , wee haue all spitted at them , and given them over . Eubulus . I am glad , Brother , that in this your daylie Combate with Beastes , you are not yet so mated , but that you are chearfullie disposed to jest with your Friendes . If such motiues as these did alwayes stirre vs , as our Adversaries are disposed , there should never bee anie ende of jangling . Alwayes , if it please you , I will retaine this Rime some dayes , and there-after sende it vnto you . Theriomachus . So that you send it backe , with what-so-ever children you shall beget vpon it , that I may haue mine own , with increase : and now , with this condition , I must take my leaue of you both , for such instant necessities as force mee , against my will , to breake you companie : and I perceiue some others casting them-selues in the way to meete you . The Blessing of the LORD bee with you . Philadelphus , and Eubulus , The Grace of GOD accompanie , comfort , and strengthen you . Eubulus . You see ( Philadelphus ) vpon how light and small grounds , our Adversaries builde vp to them-selues , matter of glorying against vs : but , I pray you , what two Gentlemen are these , who , as seemeth , are drawing towards vs ? Philadelphus . If I take them rightlie vp , the one is Eriphilus , and the other is Philomathes ; both two Papists , but of a much-different disposition : for this Eriphilus , is of a bitter , and contentious humour ; the other , Philomathes , of a sweet , modest , naturall , and , other-wayes , as towardlie a Gentleman , as I know anie ; but that hee is not , yet , well lightened in the true way of GOD His feare : and , I thinke , they bee comming to salute mee . These same are the Men. Philomathes . Doe you know ( Eriphilus ) what Gentle-man this is , which accompanieth Philadelphus ? Eriphilus . What ? ( Philomathes ) haue you not , as yet , knowne Eubulus ? whome , I can not tell , what phreneticke Fansies , or melancholious Mi●…contentmentes , haue , of late yeares , driven of a private Gentle-man , to become a Preacher : and , hee hath so bewitched the miscarried fansie of Philadelphus , that hee maketh no small account of his fellowship : yea , even my Lord , his Father , and my Ladie , his Mother , carrie him no lesse reverence , and loue , than if he were , forsooth , a person of some worth . Philomathes . And is this , indeede , Eubulus ? verilie , I am glad I haue the occasion to see him ; for hee hath the report of a discreet Gentle-man , and that hee hath some good Gift in teaching ; and I haue much longed to heare him . Eriphilus . What! Philomathes , doe you account it a lawfull thing to heare anie of these Heretickes ? This Eubulus , I tell you , is an Oratour , and can perswade foolish people , to wiene much of him . And I will not denie , but he hath some piece of prudent and faire Carriage : but Catholickes ought so much the more to shunne his fellowship , lest they bee deceived with Showes . Philomathes . Verelie , ( Eriphilus ) I can not altogether allow of your judgement in this : for al-be-it I mislike their Church , yet I haue heard some of their Preachers speake , both powerfullie , and holilie ; so as I can not denie , but I haue beene some-times both instructed , and edified by them . And , if wee will lay aside Passion and Praejudice , wee must acknowledge , that there bee some of them , who are both excellentlie learned , and exemplarlie holie men . And thus much haue I gained by hearing of them , that certainlie , I perceiue our Writers to lay against them , manie vnjust imputations , so to make their doctrine odious : as if they did maintaine things , where-of I haue often heard them teach the contrarie . And , for mee , I never can approoue , that a good Cause be defended with Calumnies . Eriphilus . To speake plainlie to you , ( Philomathes ) I thinke you are little from halting betwixt two : and I can not account him a true Catholicke , who will either heare , or in anie thing approoue such Heretickes ; or will so much as once call in question , what-so-ever the Church enjoyneth . Philomathes . I will beare with you , to judge of mee as you please : but I both am a true Catholicke , and doe reverence the Church ; yet without light , indifferentlie , to embrace all things , I thinke it not onelie brutish , but also vnlawfull for Christians , who haue to try what they holde . And verilie , ( saving the judgement of holie Church ) that opinion of implicite Faith , hath both much disgraced the Catholicke Cause , and hath made our Doctrine to bee suspected of mani●… . But it is high time for vs , to salute these Gentle-men . CHAPTER II. Philomathes . GOD saue you , Masters . Philadelphus . GOD saue you , Philomathes , and you Eriphilus . Doe your Effaires lye this way ? Eriphilus . This same is our way : and though it were not , yet wee had reason to offer you the duetie of Convoy ; so , as if it bee not displeasant vnto you , wee will , for a space , keepe you companie . Philadelphus . Your companie is to vs verie acceptable . Eriphilus . But , I pray you , good Sir , was it not the Minister , Theriomachus , who , a little hence , did part from you ? Philadelphus . You haue judged rightlie . Eriphilus . And how falleth it , for all his Clergie , that , now in almost halfe a yeare , hee cannot finde an Answere to one Sheete of Paper ? which yet hee received , with no small presumption , that , how-so-ever Pitch was defiling , yet hee re●…mbled an hote Tongs , which could contract no Contagion there-by . Philadelphus . By what Logicke will you inferre , ( Eriphilus ) because hee hath made no Answere there-to , that , therefore , hee could finde none to giue it ? Know you not , that by the holie Ghost His owne Testimonie , it is some-times foolishnesse to make answere ? And yet how are you bolde to affirme , hee hath not answered it ? Haue you heard all the Conference hee ever had , with the partie-presenter of that Sheete of Paper , since the time hee received it ? Hee hath written nothing there-to ( you will say . ) But from the defect of a written Answere , to conclude of no answere at all , it is an halting argumentation . And ha●… honest men , thinke you , who are busied in their publicke Callings , nothing else a-doe , but to waste time and travell , in intertaining Plea with Contentions , and ydle humours , vpon everie pievish Pamphlet , put out by them , of thinges a thousand times refuted ? To answere ought , is but a labour bootlesse . When curious Questions are in pryde proposed . On Soules fore-stall'd , all travell tane is fruitlesse : For Light is but to lowlie myndes exposed . Manie protest , them vprightlie disposed , Singlie to search , and receiue Institution : Who , yet , keepe that with-in their Breastes inclosed , Which barreth out all better Resolution . Who with him-selfe concludes , sine counsell craveth , According to his Idoles hee receiveth . Philomathes . You haue set downe , in your Sonnet , a most certaine trueth . For my selfe , I protest , I ever abhorred all contention , and bitternesse in disputing . And , who for anie other ende maintaine Argument , but in an vpright and calme care , to finde out Trueth , they are both displeasant to others , and vnprofitable to themselues . But seeing that Eriphilus hath casten in this matter , and wee haue so convenient occasion of Eubulus companie , and the time shall bee , so well spent ; I would intreat Eubulus , that , if hee hath ought to answere to these Questions , hee will vouchsafe to speake it : and this , I protest , I require , in vprightnesse ; because I doe thinke , there bee diverse of them , to which , hardlie , shall hee finde anie good answere . Eubulus . I never refused to conferre calmlie with anie , but I hate contention : and if you ( Philomathes ) jumpe with mee in this humour , I will obey your request the more gladlie ; and , I hope , our Conference shall not bee altogether fruitlesse . Haue you , then , these Questions by you ? and , if not , I can , perhaps , supplie your want . Philomathes . I haue them heere , and will reade them to yo●… in order : yet I am glad , that you haue alreadie seene them , for you may answere the more resolutelie to each . This , then , is the Inscription : A proper new Ballad , where-in is contained Catholicke Questions , to the Protestant . Eriphilus . I perceiue that you are alreadie acquainted with it . How say you then , ( Philadelphus ) is it not , indeede , a proper Ballad ? Philadelhpus . How proper his Ballad is , let poëts judge . Out of my little skill , I may boldlie affirme , that , for anie , either grace it bringeth to his Arte , or credite to his Cause , hee might right well haue contented him-selfe to speake in Prose : but his forme is good aneugh for his matter ; and hee is , I warrand you , no worse Poët than hee prooveth , evidentlie , a weake Divine . Reason and Ryme , if sweetlie they bee sembled , Implant in Men the pleasanter Impression : Quicke Arguments , with Eloquence enaembled , Draw contrare Myndes , more quicklie to Confession . But , of true Fayth , if vnder false Profession , Songs bee made Syropes , but to sweeten Errours , Prudence will spye , and keepe of Trueth possession , Vnsnar'd with Syrens , or yet tost with Terrours . But that 's soone seene , which wants both Sause & Season : Your raving Man hath neither Ryme nor Reason . Eriphilus . It is by evincing Syllogismes , I trow , and not by invectiue Sonnets , ( Philadelphus ) that you must answere to these Questions . Eubulus . By a Sonnet one may verie convenientlie giue sentence of a Song : and Philadelpbus will but let you see , ( Eriphilus ) that wee are not so farre borne in despite of all the Muses , but that wee could render you as compact Verses , as anie your proper Ballad hath in it . Yet , let it bee as you desire : wee will leaue Sonnets a little , and come to Syllogismes . Philomathes , reade on . Philomathes . Gladlie . Thus then hee beginneth . I pray thee , Protestant , beare with mee , To aske thee Questions , two or three : And if an answere thou canst make , More of thy counsell I will take . Manie and sundrie Sects appeare , Now in the Worlde , farre and neare : The Protestant , the Puritane , The Calvinist , the Zvvingliane , The Brovvnists , and the Fam'lie of Loue , And manie moe , which I can prooue : And the Romane Fayth , truelie , Which you doe call Papistrie . All these , in verie deede , Rehearse all Articles in the Creede : And ev'rie one of them sayth , That their's is the Catholicke Fayth . How should I , amongst all these , Know the Trueth , from feigned Lies ? For ev'rie one confesse IESU ; Saying , that their Faith is true . But this is it that I doe seeke , To know the Church Catholicke ; The Communion , or the companie , Of bolie Men , in vnitie . Eubulus . This hath beene the Question , which in all times perverse and ignorant men , haue pretended for them , as is cleare by these wordes of Chrysostome , Homil. 33. in Act. Tom. 3. The Heathen man sayeth ▪ I would bee a Christian , but I know not to whom I should cleane : Manie Debates are amongst you ▪ I know not what Doctrine to choose ; seeing on both sides they pretende Scripture . Answere him , This maketh much for vs : For if wee did say , that our Fayth were grounded vpon naturall reasons , thou hadst reason to bee troubled : but when wee betake vs to the Scriptures , which are playne and true , thou mayest easilie discerne . If anie man agree with Them , hee is a Christian : and who so oppugneth Them , hee is farre from this Rule . This same Chrysostome , in 2. ad Thessal . 2. All things are cleare and playne in divine Scriptures : what-so-ever thinges are necessarie , are manifest in them . Agayne , the same Chrysostome , in Ioann . cap. 10. Homil. 58. The Scriptures leade vs to GOD , and open to vs the knowledge of Him : they both make , and keepe the Sheepe : neyther suffer they Wol●…es to breake in : For , as a most strong Doore , they debarre Heretickes , and place the Godlie in suretie . Neyther ( so beeing wee bee willing ) shall they ever suffer vs to fall away in Errour . Now , al-be-it I well might , for all answere , oppose to your Poet , these Passages ; yet , lest you complayne , ( Philomathes ) that I passe him too slenderlie , I take vp the summe of your Man his mayne Question , to bee this : Amongst so manie diverse Sects , all rehearsing the common Creed , and each acclayming the Title of the Church , hovve , and by what Marks , we may discerne the true Church of CHRIST , from such as falselie doe vsurpe that Title ? Philomathes . You haue exceeding well taken vp the state of the Question . And , I pray you , is it not a necessarie Question , and worthie of a carefull consideration ? Eubulus . Yea , verilie : but in proponing where-of , and in answering there-to , your Questione●… bewrayeth , either want of Care , or want of Skill , or ( which is worse ) want of Conscience . For , if hee could prooue moe Sectes than hee proponeth , ( as both hee professeth , and I confesse hee might ) why would hee not rather produce them , than , for malicious vp-making of a number , where no number is , make them diverse , who are but one ? For everie difference of Opinion , maketh not a diverse Sect : much lesse doe diverse names of men , who disagree in no materiall point . Philadelphus . You miss-take the matter , ( Eubulus ) it is not maliciouslie done of him , but for Metres sake , to make vp his Verses , which , other-wayes , would not haue runne well . Eubulus . Well : this is his least , al-be-it even a lourd-Errour . But next , ( Philomathes ) for resolution of his Question , if hee had not willinglie set him-selfe to wander out of a right and plaine way , so to draw others after him , in the darke Mist of drumblie Disputations , hee might haue taken the onlie sure , and infallible Marke , from CHRIST His owne Mouth : Who , as hee is the onelie LORD of the House , great Shepheard of the Sheepe , and Bridegroome of the Bryde ; so can Hee , best of anie , leade vs to know them rightlie . Philomathes . That must bee of all other the most certaine Note : and I long to heare it . Eubulus . CHRIST giveth His Sheepe this Marke , That they know the voyce of the great Shepheard , and follow it ; and that they will not follow the voyce of a Stranger , for they know it not . Where-by that is vndoubtedlie the true Church , where the voyce of CHRIST , and His voyce onelie , is purelie preached , and religiouslie received . If anie man loue Mee , bee will keepe My Word ; and My Father will loue him ; and Wee will come to him , and will dwell with him . Hee that loveth Mee not , keepeth not My Wordes , &c. Philomathes . This is most true : but the Question remaineth still , as doubtfull as before : for , what-so-ever Companie doeth acclaime to it selfe , the Title of the Church , they no lesse boldlie affirme , that they doe heare the voyce of CHRIST ; so , as you haue , but cast vs in a new dispute , what i●… CHRIST His voyce , which his true Sheepe doe heare ; and by hearing where-of , they may bee discerned to bee of His Sheepe-folde . Eubulus . Neyther CHRIST , nor His Apostles , nor the succeeding Orthodox Fathers , haue left place , to make question heere-of , to anie , who wilfullie winketh not : for Hee hath left vs His holie Scriptures , and commandeth to search them , for a Witnesse of Him. Now , the way to know Him , and , to know His true Church , ( which is his fulnesse ) must of necessitie bee one . More-over , that which maketh the man of GOD wise , absolute , and perfect to everie good worke , must make him wise , to discerne the true Church also . But the Scriptures make the man of GOD wise , absolute , and perfect to everie good worke ; therefore , they make him wise , to discerne the true Church also . So then , the Scriptures are CHRIST His voyce , and they onlie are now to bee helde for His voyce : for , In vaine doe men worship , ( sayeth the LORD ) teaching for Doctrines , the Traditions of men . And , when-so-ever anie Church falleth to heare anie other Voyce , or follow anie other Speaker , then Shee looketh aside , to the Flockes of his Companions , and of a faithfull Citie , beginneth to become an Harlor . And , as Ierome pertinentlie speaketh , Egredietur è finibus suis ; Shee transgresseth her owne Limits . Your men , Philomathes , darken all disputation , by deceit of Aequivocations , and confounding of distinct Considerations , and Cases . It is a much different thing , to discerne the Church of CHRIST , in common , from Infidels & Forraigners . And , againe , in that communitie of the Church , to discerne betwixt the true worshippers , and the false ; betwixt the true Church , and the Synagogue of Satan , calling themselues Iewes , and yet are not . And , who , for concluding of this , would bring the common notes of that , hee were a doting Divine , and a no lesse ridiculous Logician , than hee , who for discerning a man from a beast , would bring the common properties of a living creature : for , how-so-ever the common notes of Christians , good , or bad , of Orthodox , or Heretickes , of CHRIST , or Antichrist , will distinguish the common bodie ( in which all these are ) from Forraigners : yet , to discerne betwixt the true bodie , and the inherent evill ; betwixt lawfull , and adulterous worship ; betwixt the Bryde , and the pretending Whoore ; ( both of them in , though not both of the bodie ) there is none other sure note , or marke of discretion , but the Scriptures onlie . When you shall see ( sayeth Chrysostome ) vngodlie Heresie , which i●… the Armie of Antichrist , standing in the holie places of the Church , then let them who are in Iudea , flee to the Mountainest that is , they who are of Christianitie , dresse them-selues to the Scriptures : because , from that Heresie hath once obtayned place in the Churches , there can bee no tryall of true Christianitie ; neyther anie other refuge for Christians , willing to know the veritie of the Fayth , but the divine Scriptures . And in that same place : Before , manie wayes were shewed , which was the Church of CHRIST ; but now , no manner of way , hut by the Scriptures . For , ( sayeth the same Chrysostome , or who-so-ever was the Author of that imperfect worke vpon Matthew ) if men looke to ought else , they shall stumble , and perish , not vnderstanding which is the true Church : and shall fall , there-by , in the abhomination of desolation , which standeth in the holie places of the Church . Wee thinke it not equitable , ( sayth Basilius ) that such custome of speach , as hath taken place with them , should bee helde for a Law , and Canon of right Doctrine : for , if custome were of force anough to prooue right Doctrine , wee might also imitate them heere-in . Let vs stand , therefore , to the decision of Scripture , inspyred from GOD , and with whome are found heades of Doctrine , consonant to the divine Oracles ; let Veritie bee al-to-gether adjudged vnto them . Non oportet ( sayeth Ireneus ) quaerere apud alios veritatem , cum Apostoli quasi in dives promptuarium plenissime contulerint omnia quae sunt veritatis : that is , Wee must not seeke Trueth else-where , seeing the Apostles haue most plentifullie , as in a rich Store-house , put together all thinges that belong to Trueth . Non haec autilla . ( sayeth Augustine ) alteri parti suspecta objiciantur , sed communia arma sumantur Scripturae : that is , Let not such things bee objected , as are suspected of eyther partie ; but let the common Armour , the Scriptures bee taken . I might bring manie moe such Testimonies of the Fathers , where-by your man his vnnecessarie nycenesse , ( Philomathes ) in making so great a Question , how Trueth , and the true Church , may bee discerned , from Lies , and hereticall companies , bewrayeth evidentlie , what vpright affection hee hath , eyther to fynde the true way him-selfe , or to leade others there-in . Philomathes . When all that you haue sayde is granted , ( so as not onlie those be the true Sheepe , which heare CHRIST His voyce , but that His voyce also bee determined to bee the holie Scriptures ) yet the Question remaineth vnsolved . For as all Sects acclaime the Title of the Church , and professe the hearing of CHRIST His voyce ; so doe they all alleadge Scripture for them . And this was , not obscurelie , implyed in the Question , in that all rehearse the common Creede : so as nothing appeareth to bee yet brought of you , which will rid the Debate . Eubulus . To this I answere : First , al-be-it all pretende Scripture , yet all pretende not Scripture onlie , ( which , both by Scripture , and by cleare Testimonie of Orthodox Antiquitie , I haue prooved , in the Case heere questioned , to bee the onelie Rule : ) for your Church of Rome joyneth , and equalleth with Scripture , her owne Canons , and Traditions ; and there-by declareth evidentlie , all her worship to bee vaine . Hoc nimis doleo ( sayeth Augustine ) quia multa quae in divinis libris saluberrime scripta sunt , minus curantur & tam multis praesumptionibus plena sunt omnia , ut gravius corripiatur qui humanas illas traditiones negligit , quam qui mentem vinolentia sepeliverit : that is , I much lament , for that manie thinges , which in the holie Scriptures are most healthsomlie written , are little regarded ; and all things are so full of manifolde presumptions , as he is more grievouslie punished , who neglecteth those humane Traditions , than who hath buried his mynde in Drunkennesse . If that holie Father did finde such matter of lamentation , for those small beginnings , ( in comparison ) which the mysterie of your Antichristian Iniquitie , at that time not so farre as yet advanced , had come to ; what had beene the measure of his griefe , if hee had seene it in the toppe of Presumptuous Impietie ? Eriphilus . What , Eubulus , will you make vs , therefore , to heare another voyce than CHRIST'S , because wee heare the voyce of the Church ? Is not the voyce of the Church , CHRIST'S owne voyce ? sayeth Hee not in Scripture . Hee who heareth you ; heareth Mee ; and bee who despyseth you , despyseth Mee ? Eubulus . Too great heate ( Eriphilus ) maketh you to over-reach your selfe , and so to stumble , both in Logicke , and in Divinitie . Your Errour in Logicke , is , that you take that for an Argument , which is the verie Poynt in Question . All our Dispute , is , what Companie , of so manie Acclaimers , is the true Church of CHRIST . In this Question , proponed to vs by your Poët , wee are come thus farre , That who heare CHRIST'S voyce , and His voyce onlie . Wee haue layde also this ground , That the Scriptures are onelie to bee helde for His voyce . Vpon which ground , I challenged your Church , as adding to her owne . Now here for your defence , that your Decrees must bee counted CHRIST'S voyce ; and that even by Scripture , you assume , that you are the Church ; and , where the Sheepe are to bee tryed , by the voyce which they doe heare , you will , therefore , justifie the voyce , because you , forsooth , doe heare it . And by such Logicke as this , what may you not conclude ? You might , with more credite , tell vs in plaine Tearmes , That you will not haue it put in question , but that you are the Church : than appeare to put that poynt in tryall , and incontinent , to take it for a Principle , which is the verie Poynt controverted . Now , as this is your fault in Logicke , and that exceeding chyldish ; so , in Divinitie , you misse , and more dangerouslie . Because the LORD affirmeth , That who heareth the Church , heareth Him ; and who despyseth them , despyseth Him ; if Pastours , vnder the pretext of this Power , should presume , absolutelie , to impose on Consciences , what they please ; binding Christians , indifferentlie , without proving , to admit all ; it were an impudent , yea , an impious vsurpation : For these speaches of CHRIST haue alwayes this implyed Condition , That Pastours speake nothing , but the wordes of the Great Shepheard : For , the words of the Wyse , are lyke Goades , and lyke Nayles , &c. which are given by one Pastour . Were they not , I pray you , the ordinarie Church-men , whom the LORD rebuked , for burdening Consciences , with Traditions , even of Fathers ? And were not those Traditions , where-of Augustine so much lamented the imposition , the Traditions of the Church ? Doeth not the same Father affirme , That Ne Catholicis Episcopis ascentiendum , sicubi falluntur ut contra canonic as Scripturas aliquid sentiant : that is , Wee ought not consent , no , not with Catholicke Bishops , if they holde a●…e opinion contrarie to the canonicke Scriptures . For ( as Cyprian sayth ) Consuetudo sine veritate , vetustas est erroris : Custome without Trueth , is but Antiquitie of Errour . And the Saying of Ruffinus , on the Creed , is notable : Non dicimus , Credo in Ecclesiam , sed , Credo Ecclesiam : ne eadem vis & authoritas videatur Creatoris , & creaturae ; Domini & Ministrorum ▪ that is , Wee say not , I belieue in the Church , but , I belieue the Church : lest one and the same , might appeare to bee the power and auth●…ritie of the Creator , and the creature , of the LORD , and of His Servantes . Augustine affirmeth , Licere quaslibet liter as Episcoporum , & ipsa consilia reprehendere , si qua in ●…e a veritate devient : That it is lawfull to repr●…oue what-so-ever Letters of bishops , yea , and the Councels them-selues , if in anie thing they decly●…e from the ●…rueth . Because hee who heareth the King his Ambassadour , or Herauld , heareth the King ; and who despyseth them , despyseth the King ; haue eyther Ambassadours or Heraulds an●… libe●…tle , heere-vpon , to exceede the boundes of then Commissions and Warrandes ? Or , haue not the parties , who other-wayes , are holdē to heare eyther of th●…m ; yet place le●…t them ( without anie diminution of the Soveraigne Majestie , and Royall Authoritie ) both to aske for , and to examine their Warrandes ? Wee haue but one LORD , and one Law-giver : and so only doeth the contempt of our voyce touch Him , if our voyce bee the Eccho of His voyce , and wee speake not out of our owne imaginations . Other-wayes , the manie sad , and serious Warninges , given vs to trye spirits , were vayne . Then , turning speach to Philomathes . Eriphilus heate for your Church , ( Philomathes ) hath al-most haled mee quyte from our Question . You objected , That all Sects pretende Scripture . I answered , That all pretended not Scripture onlie ; for that your Church joyneth , and aequalleth with Scripture , her owne Devyses . Nowe , to divert heere farder to the Question of the Churches power in this poynt , and whether shee may erre , or not , it were to slyde away from our present poynt : and I haue disputed that matter at length , in my Defence of our Callinges . I giue the Case , then , that your Church , and all others , acclayming the Title , did pretende Scripture onelie : yet , it is one thing to pretende Scripture , and another to haue Scripture truelie for them : It is one thing to rehearse the common Creede , and another thing to holde the poyntes there-of : Yea , and one thing to holde them falselie , and but in show , and another to holde them truelie . One may in worde and profession , holde IESVS to haue come in the flesh ; and yet , in effect , denye it , and so bee an Antichrist . None can call IESVS LORD , but by the Spirit of GOD , ( sayeth the Scripture : ) and yet the same Scripture witnesseth , That not al who call Him LORD , shall enter into the Kingdome of Heaven . If Heretickes did not pretende Scripture , they could not greatlie deceiue ; no more than the Philistims had declared Samsons Riddle , if they had not plowed with his Heyfer . And this , indeede , were to yeelde Satan an easie victorie : if , because ( for more effectuall deceit ) hee maketh to cloathe him-selfe with our Weapons , wee should , therefore , fayntlie forsake them , and for-g●…e that which by our LORD is left vs , for our onelie Armour , Rule of our Wayes , and Sole Ground , and Pillar of our Fayth , ( as sayeth Ireneus ) so to wander , and perish , in the Wildernesse of Mens Inventions . Philadelphus . Verilie , ( Philomathes ) it is exceeding strange , that your Teachers haue so farre perswaded their Disciples ; that reading of Scripture , to Laike persons , ( as they call them ) is not onelie vnprofitable for resolution , but also dangerous for breeding Errours : Thus verifying of themselues , that saying of Ireneus , speaking of Heretickes , Cum ex Scripturis arguuntur , in accusationem convertuntur ipsarum Scripturarum : that is , When they are argued by Scriptures , they turne then to the accusation of the Scriptures them-selues : Al-be-it , wee see the Bereans are highlie praysed , for searching Scripture , and examining there-by , what was offered vnto them ; and their example is registrated by the holie Ghost , for a permanent instruction , in such case , to all succeeding Ages . And it is even monstrous to consider , how farre your guydes haue brought their followers , not onlie to neglect , but even to contemne ; yea , and condemne , in Laike men , the reading of holie Scripture . So , as I can not tell , whether with greater horrour , I haue often heard their disdainful speaches , against Scripture : or , with dolour , and compassion , I haue perceived , how some of them , presuming much of Knowledge ; and , other-wayes , prowdlie , peart to prattle , in Controversies of Religion , and to talke at Tables , of some cunned , and dismembred Testimonies of the Fathers ; yet , in the Sacred BIBLE , were as great strangers , as in the Alcoran . Philomathes . If anie man , eyther speake vnreverentlie of Scripture , or condemne the reading there-of , by Laike persons , I am not to make good for that ; for my selfe , I both reverence them , and esteeme the reading of them , in Sobernesse , and Humilitie , to all sorts of men , not onlie lawfull , but also profitable , and necessarie . Neyther did that , which I objected to Eubulus , tende to draw men al-to-gether from Scripture : but , seeing that not onlie all Heretickes pretende Scripture , each drawing out there-of , a Sense , for corroboration of their owne Opinions : but that there is also a manifolde , and great diversitie of interpretation amongst all men , ( where-through it is cleare , howe doubtfull and obscure the meaning of Scripture is . ) It would appeare , that al-be-it wee haue not to forsake , or despyse Scripture ; yet , for Resolution , which is the true Sense , that wee must seeke some other Rule . And what can that bee else , but that , leaving all other Interpretations , wee holde that which the Catholicke Church avoucheth . Eubulus . Doe you not perceiue , ( Philomathes ) howe , agaynst all Logicke Lawes , you reduce our Disputation , to a Circle : and , so , not onelie you take that for a graunted ground , which is the verie poynt in question ; but also fall , sensiblie , in that same imputation , which you would appeare so much to shunne . Wee are disputing , Which is the true Church : and haue evinced , That the onelie sure way to know Her , is by Scripture . So as of necessitie , first Scripture must leade vs to know ( amongst common Acclaymers ) which is Shee , before wee can resolue to follow Her interpretation . I heartilie yeelde , that Her interpretation be taken : but , in such Dispute , Who Shee is , wee must first bee assured , that it is the Bryde which speaketh , and not a masked Harlot , vnder that name . As for your Objection , of Scriptures obscuritie , where-vpon , by accusing Scripture , you would build an excuse , of seeking some other Rule , it both contumeliouslie taxeth GOD , and is also , in it selfe , sophisticall . It is clearlie contumelious agaynst GOD , in that CHRIST , commanding to search Scripture , for a cleare witnessing of Him ; the holie Ghost affirming by Peter , that the word of Scripture , is a sure and shyning word ; by Paul , that it is able to make the man of GOD wyse , to everie good worke ; and exhorting all men , & praysing in all men , the diligent reading , and meditation there-of , there-by to discerne spirites , and to prooue what is propounded vnto them : that David , al-most all-where , speaking so divinelie of the playnnesse , and power there-of , as where-by even a Chylde may learne to addresse his wayes : Yet some of your men ( Philomathes ) are not ashamed , disdaynfullie to call it a Leaden Rule , and a Nose of Waxe : as if the Almightie , and only wyse GOD , had not eyther wysely anough , or lovinglie , provyded for the direction of His House : and that men , forsooth , will , or can , finde out a more cleare and certayne way . But , what-so-ever obscuritie had appeared to bee in Scripture ; or , howe vncertayne so-ever the vayne and running Humours of men , might appeare to make it , by their diversitie of Interpretations ; yet this should ever haue religiouslietyed vs there-to , that our LORD hath left it vs , for a Lanterne to our Feete , and sole and perpetuall Ground of our Fayth : studying , therefore , with all humilitie , cleannesse of heart , and earnest prayer , to attayne the knowledge there-of : and not proudlie , and rebelliouslie , to take such counsell , as did Israell in the Wildernesse : Wee know not what is become of this Moses ; make vs , therefore , gods to goe before vs. The advyse of Augustine , is much more both sound and sober , than is that of your Church-men : That in reading of Scripture , if wee can not take vp the verie genuine sense , and meaning of the place , at least , let vs not expound that place of Scripture , in a sense repugning to the Analogie of Fayth : So shall wee bee lyke to a man , who how-so-ever hee hath aberred from the direct way , yet hee wandreth in the Fields , leading to the Towne where-at hee would bee . I affirmed , ( Philomathes ) that your Objection , of Scriptures obscuritie , was also Sophisticall ; and thus I cleare it : All reason of obscuritie , must bee eyther in the matter it selfe , or in the manner of delyverie , or in the weaknesse of their perception , to whome it is delyvered . Of divine thinges , wee acknowledge , that , how-so-ever , for most reall and constant existence , they bee , of all thinges , the most certayne : yet , that , for their retyred eminencie , to all creatures , of all thinges , the most obscure . But , for the manner of deliverie , as GOD , in holie Scripture , hath revealed them , we affirme , that all the wisdome , and eloquence of all creatures , ( even in a conceived matter ) could never haue found out so playne a manner ; or , so farre , and lovinglie , haue attempered it , to the capacitie of man , ( as in so high mysteries , and a constant remayning Rule of Fayth , was possible . ) And yet , how-so-ever they bee thus delivered , wee acknowledge , that no naturall man , ( and naturall onlie ) is capable of them : For they are spirituallie discerned : But the spirituall man , by the Spirit of GOD in him , will discerne the things of GOD. To reason , then , from the naturall obscuritie , or retyred eminencie of the matter , to the manner of deliverie : or , from the weaknesse of man's perception , to conclude of the manner of deliverie : or , from the perception of the naturall man , to conclude of the perception of the spirituall man , it were al-wayes absurd Sophistication . We are bolde to say , with the holie Ghost , That how-so-ever to most part of men , the Mysteries of the Kingdome bee spoken in parables ; that hearing , they may heare , and not vnderstand ; and seeing , they may see , and not perceiue : Yet , That Who-so-ever doeth the will of the FATHER , they will knowe the Doctrine , whether it bee of GOD , or whether men speake of them-selues : That CHRIST HIS true Sheepe , knowe His Voyce , and knowe the voyce of a Stranger : Wee avouch , That the wordes of Wisdome , are all playne to him that will vnderstand ▪ and straight , to him that will finde Knowledge : That Scorner , seeketh Wisdome , and findeth it not ; but Knowledge is easie to him , that will vnderstand . So , as if the Trueth bee hid , it is hid to them , whose eyes the Prince of this World hath picked out : and whom GOD , justlie , eyther for misregard , or pryde of mynde , hath given over to the efficacie of Errour , to groape even at noone day . Neyther maketh your Sophisticall Objection , of diversitie of Interpretation , against this : for , how-so-ever , manie particular places in Scripture , appeare still difficill , and doubtfull to vs , which but know in part , and prophesie in part : yet wee affirme , ( with Augustine ) That even in those things which are playnlie set downe in Scripture , are all things to bee found , which contayne Fayth , and Rules of living ; and that nothing , almost , is ripped out of the most obscure parts , which will not bee found in some other place most playnlie spoken . Philomathes . To grant you even all that you haue sayde , either of the plainnesse , or plentiful●…esse of holie Scripture ; yet what shall you gaine there-by , against our Questioner ? or , how shall you justifie the imputations , of want of Care. Skill , or Conscience , layde on him by you ? seeing both our Church confesseth , that the Scripture showeth which bee the true Markes of the Church ; and such Notes as are heere brought by our man , hee prooveth them all from Scripture . Eubulus . How eyther proper , or pertinent , your Poet's Markes are , which hee bringeth , and how well hee prooveth them from Scripture , or other-wayes , wee shall see , GOD willing , in the particular examination of each ; where-by all his Corne shall bee found but Chaffe ; and that carelessie , skillessie , or fraudfullie , hee hath fled the onelie demonstratiue Marke , to seduce the simple , with Topicall showes . You say , your Church acknowledgeth , that by Scripture , the true Marks of the Church are knowne . But ( Philomathes ) they fall never to say so , but when they are reduced to such straits , as eyther they must say it , or bee snared , For their common Doctrine is well anough knowne , which can so little consist with this , which you haue now granted , as the one , evidentlie , over-throweth the other . For , doe not your men make all the authoritie of Scripture to depende so farre on the Church her suffrage , as that therefore onlie you are sure , such & such to be canonicke Scriptures , because the Church hath so determined ? Thus , monstrouslie , you make one , and the same , to bee both the Mother and the Daughter , and of one . Philomathes . But , thus , you taxe Augustine no lesse than vs , who affirmeth , that hee would not belieue Scripture , if the authoritie of the Churh did not mooue him . Eubulus . You deceiue , ( Philomathes ) by concluding Theticallie , and absolutelie , vpon that which Augustine Hypotheticallie propoundeth : and , so , you , vnskilfullie , confound diverse Cases . For , first , inducing of an Infidell , to belieue Scripture , the Authoritie of the Church , is a great Motiue ; or rather , ( as Augustine calleth it ) a Commotiue , and Opportanum inquirendi exordium : that is , A commodious entrie , to inquire by . Now , from this speciall Case , and qualitie of Case , to inferre , That the man by this Commotiue , first induced , had still there-after no other , or greater Warrand , for his Beliefe of Scripture , but the Authoritie of the Church , which first induced him : it were no better Logicke , than to conclude of the Samaritanes , That they never had anie better Foundation of their Fayth , than the Report of their Woman from the Well . The Authoritie of the Church , may , and will often , induce an Infidell , to reverence , and belieue Scripture : but so , as having come thus farte , then , in the communitie of that Church , to discerne lawfull , from vnlawfull worship ; and , orthodox , from hereticall professours , the Scriptures onlie must haue place : as in a case , where-in to alleadge the Churches authoritie , were extreamlie ridiculous , it beeing the verie point in question , what companie is the Church . And I shewed you before , how your men are alwayes deceived , or at least , labour to deceiue others , by confounding the case of the Church considered , absolutelie , and in relation to Forraigners , and Infidels , and reasoning from it , ( so considered ) to the decyding of debate , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the Church . In the first , the common notes are discretiue , and the common authoritie , a commotiue to induce ; but in the other , there is no manner of way , but the Scriptures , as out of the Fathers I haue cleared . And , now , ( ●…lomathes ) to returne to our poyn●… whence this your ●…hreedbare Objection , from Augustine , hath driven ●…ee . I pray you , if your men are forced to confesse , That the Markes of the Church , are knowne by Scripture ; why flee they from having all , both their Doctrine and Dealing , examined by that same Rule ? What a shamelesse Sophistrie is this , to ●…ject Scripture , in the particular tryall of everie : Article of Fayth ; and yet , for a few wrested , and perv●…ed Sentences , where-by to proue some bastard ▪ and beg●…yling Notes , therefore , impudentlie , to all eadge , That they , for sooth , doe cleare their Church , by Scripture ? As if in all Scripture , the holie Ghost had but given some Notes , of a Companie , where to seeke our Fayth ; and no●… clearlie set downe the Fayth , which wee haue to holde , and where-by to discerne the Companie which wee haue to cleaue vnto . Your Cardinall Bellarmine , in aunswering to some cleare Places of the Fathers , nearlie pintching him , ( namelie , of Augustine ) is forced to flee to this , which you , also , 〈◊〉 taken for your last Refuge : That the Scripture , indeede , teacheth what are the Notes of the Church . And I haue , verilie , reason , to thanke both you , and him for it : If ( as I presume of you ) so hee , also , had eyther willinglie , or ingenuouslie yeelded it . And , though you had forgotten this piece of your Armour , yet I was presentlie to haue put you in mynde there-of ; for the cleare advantage I haue in it , to conclude , aga●…nst your 〈◊〉 all this poynt of our Dispueation . I am sure , that 〈◊〉 ●…o is so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ●… Scho●…Man , will not ( agaynst Na●…re , ●…nd all Schooles ) affirme of GOD , the most perfect Doctour ▪ Th●… Hee 〈◊〉 , ( Obseuru●… p●…r obscurius ) that which is obscure , by anie thing which is more obscure . For all knowledge proceedeth Ex natura noturibus : that is , of thinges which are , by nature , more notore ▪ than are those things , which they are brought to notifie . Thus , then , I conclude , vpon your owne Position : That which cleareth anie thing , must it selfe be more cleare ▪ But the Scripture cleareth , which are the Notes of the Church . There-fore , as the Notes , where-by the Church is knowne , must bee more cleare , than the Church , which is knowne by them : So , the Scripture , which teacheth those Notes , must bee more cleare than both . The Scripture , which is the Voyce of the LORD of the House , and Great Shepheard of the Sheepe , truelie taught , and reverentlie received , is the onlie , sure , and evident Ensigne of the House , and Flocke . And , who is it that knoweth not this ▪ That the Companie is al-wayes discerned by the Colours , and not the Colours by the Companie ? Now , consider , ( Philomathes ) whether your mens Objections , Of Scriptures obscuritie , doe fall , and in what vprightnesse they are propounded : And , whether your Questioner bee sincerelie set , to finde that which hee seemeth to seeke for : or , rather , fraudfullie , to divert the Simple , from the onelie Light , which leadeth to it ? And , some of your owne Wryters , convinced by cleare Trueth , are forced to confesse , what the more impudent sort so much oppugne . Andreas Fricius , thus speaketh : DEVS Author est Verbi Sui , quod tanti facit , ut Coelum & Terra facilius transitura sint , quam Verba Ipsius pessum itura . Ille est qui tuetur Verbum Suum , qui authoritatem tribuit , qui illud in dignitatem vindicat : qui per Spiritum S. obsignat in cordibus hominum . Testimonium quidem Ecclesia , Spiritu DEI aff●…ata dare potest Verbo & Doctrinae : hanc scilicet quam ●…am inde ab Apostolis quafi per manus ac●…pisset , & non ali●…m esse à DEO prolitam : Authoritatem ver●… Illi ●…ribuere nemo potest praeter DEVM ipsum , qui est Author illius , Illustrator , Defensor , Propug●…ator . Agayne , the same Author , Lib. 4. de Ecclesia , Cap. 7. Ecclesiam necesse est accommodari ad Verbum non Verbum ad Ecclesiam ; Verbum Fundamentum est , Ecclesia aedificium in illo collocatum . Gabriel Biel , Lib. 3. Sentent . Distinct. 26. Scripturae canonicae , absque omni approbatione Ecclesiae , ex natura ●…ei sunt immutabiles , & immutabiliter verae . Hosius , in Confess . Cap. 16. Non aliter nos credimus Evangelio , nisi propter Vocem DEI intus loquentis , et nos docentis . So as ( Philomathes ) if you will not belieue vs , yet your owne men may tell you , Whether your Poet hath wandered him-selfe , and would draw others , with him , in Darknesse . Philadelphus . Hee will haue vs , to seeke after the Church , as Children , at Chacke-blynd-man , groape after their Fellowes . For , first , hee would picke out our Eyes , or syle vs from seeing : and , then , forsooth , set vs a-searching . But they who doe evill , hate the Light : and the Church of Rome , had rather choose , That this Debate were never decided , than that the cleare convincing Marke were brought , where-by they might bee found out , who they are . Through open Streete , with lighted Lampe in hand , A vayne surveyning Sophist walkt at Noone : Where-of , when one the Motiue did demand , His rugged Reason thus hee rendred soone : 'Mongst Men , more mad than Mamacks , by the Moone , I search ( sayde hee ) if I can finde one wyse . Asse ( th' other sayde ) thyne Head is out of tune : Canst thou discerne one , though thou sawst him thryse ? But ( more ) your man is jumpe set in his matter , As hee who sought his drown'd Wyfe vp the Water . Eriphilus . Your Sonnets ( Philadelphus ) are verie sarcasticke : but where-by ( if our man's Questions bee not better answered , than by such cutting Checks ) the Scorne , in ende , will turne to bee your owne . Eubulus . Doe you well ( Eriphilus ) to bee angrie ? is onlie your man priviledged to bee a Poët ? and is hee so ( haeres ex asse ) vniversall Heyre to all the Muses , as that wee haue no part , nor portion , in them ? Et nos quoque la●…rum momordimus . But , let vs see which of vs shall fall to packe vp the Scorne : and having alreadie cleared , what is the onelie sure Note of the Church , let vs now more nearlie treade your man's traces , in these his metricke Marks , and try what weight they carrie . First , ( Philomathes ) reade the Inscriptions of his Sections , for vp-taking his whole Drift . Then will wee ( God willing ) examine each of them severallie , and shortlie . Philomathes . These are the capitall wordes of all his Sections , 1. Catholicke , 2. Continuance , 3. Visible , 4. Vnitie , 5. Holie , 6. Heretickes . Eubulus . His whole Ryme ( as I remember ) ●…unneth on two maine poynts : the one , to prooue , that the Church of Rome , is the true Church of CHRIST : the other , to shew , that our Churches are hereticall . The first , hee would conclude thus : To what-so-ever companie , the notes of Catholicke , ( or Vniversalitie ) Continuance , Visibilitie , Vnitie , and Holinesse , doe properlie conveane , that is the onelie true Church of CHRIST . But , to the Church of Rome , all these doe properlie conveane . Therefore , the Church of Rome , is the onlie true Church of CHRIST . Eriphilus . If you can clearlie loose mee that K●…ot , ( Eubulus ) you may , perhaps , induce mee ▪ to take more of your counsell . But , I suspect , you are once snared : for , of the proposition , none can make question : the assumption will beare out it selfe ; and so , I hope , the Conclusion shall stand stedfast . Eubulus . And , if I shall cleare the proposition , to bee so vayne , and Sophisticall , as , though the propounder were heere present , to pleade for it , yet I would , GOD willing , breed him such Businesse , to mayntayn it , as should run him quyte out of all his ryming humour . And , if I show his Assumption also to be evidentlie false , what wil you make ( Eriphilus ) of your man's miserable Conclusion ? The vanitie , & sophisticall deceit of his Proposition , I will best discover , as I shall answere to each of these his Markes severallie ; according as hee bringeth them in order , so by an Induction , to strengthen his false Assumption . And yet , even thus I feare , ( Eriphilus ) that you shall recall your liberall Offer , and be never a whit the more subject to my counsell . But Wisedome will bee justified of her owne Children . Philomathes , reade on . Philomathes . Then hearken what hee sayeth of the first Marke , Catholicke . CHAPTER III. CATHOLICKE . INTO your Byble I haue read , The Church must throgh the World be spred : For CHRIST His Apostles sent , With Power , and Commandement , That to all Nations they should goe , To preach , and to baptize also . Who hath done this , to know I wisht ? For that is , sure , the Church of CHRIST . And , for Exemple , let m●…e know : And , if thou canst , I pray thee show , What Compànie did take in hand , The first Conversion of our Land ? And of our Countreyes everie-where , Throughout the Worlde , farre and neare ? If this was not the Church of Rome , Then will I bee converted soone . Saynct Paul , in his Epistle sayeth , The Romanes had the Catholicke Fayth : Saying , It was renowned , Spoken of , and published , Through-out the Worlde , over all , Catholicke , Universall . If yours were ever so , Then to your Churches will I goe . So sayeth the Prophet Malachie , There shall bee offered , farre and nie , A cleane Oblation , and Sacrifice , From the place the Sunne doeth ryse , To the going downe of the same . And what is that ? I pray thee name . If it bee not the Holie Masse , I 'll bee a Protestant , as I was . In the eighteenth Psalme I finde , The whole Worlde should heare their sound . If these Markes you doe not want , Then , presentlie , I shall recant . Eubulus . For myne acquytall , in that where-of I gaue to Eriphilus , some more hope , than , I thinke , hee eyther did conceiue , or would bee willing , I should make good : and to show the vaine sophistrie of the Proposition of your man's mayne Argument , so farre as concerneth this his first Marke , of Vniversalitie , till I come lyke-wayes vpon the rest . I say , ( Philomathes ) that Vniversalitie can bee no proper Marke of the Church : yea , that it can not bee anie Marke at all . And , that , therefore , your man's mayne Proposition is , in this poynt , vayne , and sophisticall . Eriphilus . Indeede , Sir , b●… this your Assertion , you make mee hope so little , that you shall make your word good , as I am assuredlie perswaded , that you are worthie to be burned , for a most detestable Hereticke : who dare , so peartlie , deny , that which , I thinke , never one of your Sect durst ever openlie gayne-say , to this houre . Will you draw mee , thinke you , to follow your counsell , in ought , who thus denyeth a speciall Article of our Creede ; and is so audacious , as to affirme , that the Church is not Catholicke ? Eubulus . I did suspect , ( Eriphilus ) that you would kindle at my Position : and , therefore , ( for a more gentle Recept ) I , even of purpose , turned my talke to Philomathes . But , I will calmlie coole your heate , if I can . I deny no Article of the Creede . I both confesse , and belieue , the Catholicke Church . But , ( that I may , yet once , make you more agast ) in that , I doe belieue it , I , even therefore , deny Catholicke , or Vniversalitie , to bee a proper Marke of the Church ; yea , or anie Marke at all : For , Fayth is the evidence of thinges , which are seene : but , the vniversalitie of the Church , is apprehended by Fayth : therefore , the vniversalitie of the Church , is not seene . Now , if it bee of things , which are not seene , but are believed , it can not bee a marke , where-by , heere to discerne the true Church . And , because , ( Eriphilus ) you sought for Syllogismes , I thus reason : All Marks are seene , or fall , vnder some Sense ▪ but Vniversalitie is not seene , neyther falleth vnder anie Sense : There-fore , Vniversalitie can bee no Marke . The Proposition of this Argument , as it is moste certayne , so is it confessed by your Cardinall Bellarmine , in his second chapter , De notis Eccles. The Assumption , none will denye , who haue anie Sense : For all Schooles holde this for an vndoubted Principle , That no Vniversall , as it is Vniversall , is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or falleth vnder Sense ; because it is properlie the Object of Reason . Much lesse , then , doeth the Object of Fayth , ( which transcendeth both Sense and Reason ) fall vnder Sense ▪ And , so , can never be any discerning Marke , betwixt Acclaymers . Thus , ( Eriphilus ) except you haue ought , where-by to infrindge mine Argument , your Man his mayne Proposition , in so farre , as concerneth this his Marke of Vniversalitie , is both vayne , and sophisticall . Vayne , because he bringeth that for a discerning Marke , which falleth not vnder Sense ; and , so , can bee no Marke at all . Sophisticall , for that , of that which we confesse , to be a true Attribute of the Church , hee would conclude , a discerning Marke . But all Attributes , are not Markes . Now ( Eriphilus ) refell mine Argument , or graunt mee , I pray you , some respite from burning : for , without merite , you haue al-readie burned too manie , vpon humour . Philadelphus . You could not away ( Eriphilus ) with my Sonnets : but , as I thinke , Eubulus Syllogismes are no lesse pricking . Philomathes . But , I pray you , Eubulus , how-so-ever your Reasons are subtill , and , I can not denye , but builded vpon confessed Grounds : and , how-so-ever that Catholicke is an Attribute ( as you call it ) of the Church , & is apprehended by Fayth : yet , seeing that the moste approoved Fathers , in their Disputations , agaynst the Heretickes of their tymes , doe presse them sore , with the Authoritie of the Catholicke Church , which they ordinarilie oppose vnto them ; it would appeare , that they had some reason to doe so : and , that even Vniversalitie is , in some respect , a Marke of the true Church . Neyther see I , howe you can disapprooue our Mens Argument , agaynst you , brought from this Note , except you will condemne those Famous , and Auncient Fathers also , as having vaynlie , and sophisticallie , reasoned for the Trueth . Eubulus . To cleare you ( Philomathes ) of all doubt heerein , and , to free our selues , from anie , eyther conscience of our owne guiltinesse , where-fore we would reject this Reason ; or , of anie vnreverend Opinion , of those Fathers , who , as you truelie affirme , in some Cases , and Respectes , did vse it ; the aequivocation of this word [ Catholicke ] must be opened vp , where-by your Doctours , willinglie , illude , and where-by your simple ones are , vnwittinglie , deceived . For the Catholicke Church , is of the Fathers so called , eyther properlie , and absolutelie , or improperlie , and but in some speciall Respect , and Relation . Absolutelie , and most properlie , the Catholicke Church , is the whole number , of what-so-ever tyme or place , who haue beene , are , or shall bee vnited vnto CHRIST , their Head , and liue in Him , by His Spirit ; whether heere , on Earth , fighting ; or hence , in Heaven , triumphing . Absolutelie , and lesse properlie , the Catholicke Church , is the whole militant companie heere on Earth , of what-so-ever Kinred , Tongue , or Nation , vnder one , and the same common Ensigne , of Christian Profession ; whether Hypocrites , or true Professours ; whether pure , or corrupt , Worshippers ; whether Orthodox , or Hereticall ; as even Bellarmine argueth , Cap. 7. De Notis Eccles. In anie of which Cases , shee is believed , and ( in her Vniversalitie ) falleth not vnder Sense . Improperlie , agayne , and in opposite Relation , the Church is called CATHOLICKE , for two Respects : The one , In opposite Relation to the Church of the Iewes , which was limited within the compasse of one People , and of one Region : the Christian Church , no more so confined , but spread , indifferentlie , over all , is called the CATHOLICKE CHVRCH . Neyther thus , because that eyther al-wayes all Peoples Vniversallie , or moste parte of Men , embrace the Gospell : but , because the Entrie is opened , and offered , indifferentlie , vnto all . The other Respect , was the opposite Relation , to hereticall Companies , separating them-selues , by Errour , from the common Bodie of the Church , & Trueth mayntayned there-in . And in this last Respect , it is , that al-most the Fathers cōmonlie speak of it ; calling the Cōmunitie of the Visible Church , retayning Trueth , ( in relation to particular hereticall Companies ) the CATHOLICKE CHVRCH . And , in this Sense , opposing , ordinarilie , to arrogant men , the Authoritie , Multitude , Consent , Succession , &c. of the Catholicke Church , as you haue alleadged , Philomathes . But in this manner of the Fathers reasoning , two things are carefullie to bee marked , whereby the Fathers shall bee found both pertinentlie , and prudentlie , to haue vsed this Argument ; & where by , your men now , shall bee seene evidentlie , and impudentlie , to abuse it . The first , is that state and condition of the Church , wherein this Argument hath place , according as it was when the Fathers vsed it . The second , is , what weight , or moment , the Fathers placed in it . The state of the Church , then , was in common , pure , holding Trueth , and by the force thereof , purging , or expelling all in-bred , or accressing evils , or Heresies . So , as then , though by an improper Speach , yet the Communalitie of the Church , keeping Trueth , in relation to a few Declyners , might not impertinentlie bee called the Catholicke Church , and her authoritie , might well haue beene opposed vnto them . But , who , in a plaine contrarie state , and condition of the Church , when Errour obtaineth in common , and Trueth is afflicted , and borne downe ; yet , without consideration of the altered State and Condition , would still vse the same reason , from Multitude , and what-so-ever , or how-so-ever an obtaining State ; hee were a ridiculous Sophister , confounding diverse , and distinct times , and cases . To reason from the state of the Church in Ephesus , ( where-in evill was not tollerated ) to the state of the Church in Smirna , ( where-in Heretickes waxed prowde , and despysed the abject state of true Professours ) it were sophisticall : but much more sophisticall , to reason from the state in Ephesus , to the state in Pergamus ; when the true Church dwelt , even where Satan's Throne was ; knowne to GOD , though hid from the worldlie sort . To reason from the Woman cloathed with the Sunne , treading the Moone , and crowned with twelue Starres ; to the same Woman , lurking in the Wildernesse , it concludeth not : for , as , in the first Case , the Fathers had reason , and did wyselie , to convince by all Advantages ; so , whyle the Case is clearlie altered , ( according as by Scripture was fore-tolde ) and Antichrist hath obtayned a Throne , even in the Temple ; when the Evill , or Gangrene , in the bodie , and having even over-gone the Bodie , in common , will contende agaynst the healthsome remnant ; then are wee both to leaue improper Speaches , and , wyselie , to distinguish , deceitfullie-confounded Tymes , and Cases : and properlie to pleade , That the Gangrene in the Bodie , and even affecting , and over-going the Bodie , in common , yet is but an Adherent , or accressing Evill , in , but not of , the Bodie : and , That the healthsome remnant , retayning the Lyfe of the Head , and , by vertue there-of , resisting the over-going Gangrene , is the true Catholicke Church . And , this altered Condition , of Tyme , and of the Church , in tyme , which maketh the Argument , some-tyme , pertinentlie , vsed , to bee nowe ridiculous : besides , that both SCRIPTVRE hath fore-tolde it , the FATHERS did see the working on of it , and , wee haue , aboundantlie often , prooved , and still offer , to prooue it . It is cleare , also , by that other Poynt , which I propounded , to bee observed , in this reasoning of the FATHERS : namelie , What Weyght , or Moment , they placed in that same Argument . VVhere-in , they even professe , That they vsed it not , as an infallible demonstratiue Marke , but as a Motiue : vvhich , beeing joyned with cleare TRVETH , was worthie to bee regarded : but , which , eyther without TRVETH , or agaynst TRVETH , should carrie no Credite . This is evident , by Augustine , vsing this same Argument , agaynst Faustus Manichaeus , and opposing the Authoritie of the Catholicke Church , Multitude , Antiquitie , Succession , &c. to his bare bragging of the TRVETH . Which TRVETH , not-with-standing , ( sayeth that Father ) if you can show , so clearlie , as it can not bee gayne-sayde , it is to bee praeferred to all these thinges , where-by I am holden within the Catholicke Church . If the name of the Catholicke Church , were , in this place , properlie to bee taken ; then should Augustine's supposed Case , be ridiculous . For Trueth can never be found any-where els , but within the Catholicke Church , taken properlie . Where-by it is cleare , that the Catholicke Church , in this , and such other places , is taken for the Communalitie of the visible Church : which , having Trueth , should bee regarded . But to whose Authoritie , not the lesse , the cleare Trueth , found with never so few Holders , is to bee preferred . For , Wee ought not to consent , no , not to Catholicke Bishops , ( sayeth the same Father ) if they holde anie Opinion contrarie to Canonicke Scriptures . Where-by is manifest , both in what Sense the Fathers reasoned , from the Authoritie of the Catholicke Church , and what force they placed in that Argument : and that , how-so-ever by them , and in that tyme , and case of a Church , it was not inconvenientlie vsed ; yet that now , in so farre different a state , still to vsurpe it in a lyke manner , were extreame impudencie . This Chrysostome did both fore-see , and gaue warning of it : that the altered state of the Church , behooved to bring men to a more neare and proper Rule of Examination , ( as in his Testimonies , aboue cited , is cleare . ) In that , how-so-ever , before that Heresie obtayned place in the Church , and the abhomination of desolation stood also ( in sanctis Ecclesiae locis ) in the holie places of the Church , manie wayes were to discerne the Church : ( as , while Trueth helde place in common , was Vniversalitie improperlie taken , Multitude , Consent , Succession , &c ) yet now , after that hereticall contagion hath infected the Bodie in common , no manner of way is to discerne the true Church , ( amidst the corrupted communitie of the Church ) but onlie the Scriptures . You are greatlie deceived , ( Philomathes ) if you esteeme the Church , therefore , to bee called CATHOLICKE ; eyther because al-wayes the moste parte of men shall come in to her , and embrace the Profession : or yet , That of such as come in to her , the moste parte shall al-wayes holde the Trueth . But , Shee is CATHOLICKE , because her Gates that are nowe casten open , to all Kinreds , Tongues , and Nations ; that the righteous Nation may enter in . And , how-so-ever , that neyther most part come in , neyther of such as are in her , is the most part of her , or saved : yet all , vniversallie , who are saved , must both bee in her , and of her . And , how-so-ever , in her , most part keepe not Trueth , yet no Trueth is , but in her . If ( as your Men are al-readie perceiving , and , there-vpon , are gnawing their Tongues , for sorrowe ) the Trueth preached by vs , take ▪ in short tyme , such successe , as the Waters of your Euphrates shall be dryed vp : and if Multitude , and Consent of Nations , shall bee with vs ; will you , there-fore , yeelde vs the Title of the Catholicke Church ? If multitude of Holders , bee al-wayes a sure Marke of the true Church , how sayeth the Scripture , That All shall follow the Beast ? And you confesse , That Antichrist , when hee commeth , shall obtayne Vniversallie . Now , if in Antichrist his vsurpation , Vniversalitie shall bee no Note of the Church , how see you not , That verie vnjustlie you lay it al-wayes agaynst vs ? and , That what-so-ever Vniversalitie you can alleadge for your Pope , it exeemeth him not from beeing that Antichrist , except hee cleare him-selfe , by better Defences ? Thus , I hope , I haue cleared , That wee neyther disprooue the Fathers , reasoning agaynst Heretickes , in opposing to them , the Authoritie of the Catholicke Church : and yet , that you haue not , there-fore , anie , eyther Right in their Argument , or Ground there-vpon , to make CATHOLICKE a discerning Marke of the Church . So , as your man's mayne Proposition , ( so farre as concerneth this Note of Vniversalitie ) is still sophisticall , and vayne . But , nowe , if it were even a discerning Marke , as your Men would make it , yet let vs trye , howe justlie your Church doeth vindicate it , to her selfe : and let vs examine your Man's mayne Assumption in that part . Philadelphus . As you haue dressed his Proposition , in that part , I thinke all labour agaynst his Assumption were ydle : For , if CATHOLICKE can bee no discerning Marke of the Church , no , not anie Marke at all , ( as you haue , at length , and evidentlie , evinced ) how can it bee Romes Marke ? Eubulus . Yet ( Philadelphus ) I will omit no-thing , where-by I may possiblie induce Eriphilus , to take more of my counsell . But , in refelling this your Man's Assumption of his mayne Argument , where-by hee appropriateth to Rome , the Title of the Catholicke Church , I must protest , ( Eriphilus ) that it bee no praejudice to my matter , that you doe so confidentlie call your selues Catholickes , and your Companie , the Catholicke Church : else , if you will haue this your vsurping of that name , to carrie anie weight ; and , that , therefore , you will haue vs to account so of you ; I desire of you the same aequitablenesse , in our Case . That , because wee both esteeme , and call our selues , The Catholicke Church , and Catholicke Men ; that , therefore , you will holde vs for such . Or , if you consider , that an Argument , à dici ad esse , concludeth not ; and that , there-fore , pertinentlie , the Logicians place , before their Categories , the Distinction ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) of thinges that are sayde , and of thinges that are . Then , let vs lay aside , what eyther you , of your selues , or wee , of our selues , doe partiallie speake , or arrogantlie arrogate ; and let vs trye , what is true of vs both . Philomathes . Your Protestation is most aequitable : For , a bare Clayme , except it bee instructed , can make no Title . Eubulus . Then , ( Philomathes ) in that part of your Poet's Ryme , which is inscrybed , CATHOLICKE , and which you did lastlie reade ; besides the Proposition , which I haue refelled , hee assumeth , That the Note of Catholicke , or Vniversalitie , conveaneth properlie , to the Church of Rome . Which false Assumption , hee seeketh to sustayne , by foure Reasons ; the first of which , hee concludeth thus : What Companie did take in hand , and , accordinglie , first performed , the publishing of the Gospell , thorow the Worlde , and converted all Nations , to the Fayth ; that must bee the Companie , to which the Title of CATHOLICKE , or VNIVERSALITIE , properlie , belongeth : and that Companie , is the Catholicke Church . But , the Church of Rome , onlie , did both vnder-take , and performe this . There-fore , the Church of Rome is the Catholicke Church ; and , to her , properlie , that Note belongeth . Now , heere , some Poëticall inspiration hath transported your man , to giue vs such , whether a definition , or description , of Catholicke , as till now , none ever heard of . Wee esteemed , ( as I haue shewed ) that the Catholicke Church had beene that companie of what-so-ever Tyme , Place , or Nation , which , in the communion of one , and the same Spirit , joyned to their Head CHRIST , doe make vp the fulnesse of His mysticall Bodie ; whether in the Heavens , triumphing , or , as yet , heere , in their course , fighting ; or , in another consideration , wee call the Catholicke Church , all of all Kinreds , Tongues , and Nations , who vnder one , and the same common Ensigne , of Christian Profession , giue their names to CHRIST , and are in the count of His House heere ; whether they bee onlie in it , or also of it : or , to speake improperlie , as , in some Cases , the Fathers doe , the Catholicke Church is the communitie of the Church , holding Trueth in relation , to Declyners there-from . But your Poet , appropriating this Title , to the first Converters , hath forfaulted from this Dignitie , all the Converted by them : And , thus , his Proposition , is not onlie false , but even ridiculous . For , how-so-ever the Converters of others , by an improper Speach , may be called Catholicks ; as anie particular Church , holding Trueth , is called a Catholicke Church ; or anie faithfull Man , a Catholicke man , because they are true partes of the Catholicke Church , in which onlie is Trueth , Lyfe , and Salvation : yet , to call anie particular , eyther person , order of persons , or companie , the Catholicke man , persons , or Church , it is an insolentlie arrogant Speach . His Assumption I distinguish . If hee affirme , That Rome first converted all Nations to the Fayth , and was the first publisher of the Gospell , it is so shameleslie false , as , I thinke , Satan might blush , to broach out such a Lie. How did Paul glorie in the LORD , ( and that before hee did see Rome ) that from Arabia , to Illyricum , he had filled all with the Gospell of CHRIST ; and that , most part , where CHRIST had not beene named , not building on anie other man's foundation ? Haue all the other eleven Apostles , besides Peter , forgotten , thinke you , their LORD's Commission ; of whom , wee haue no certayne record , that ever anie did see Rome ? If , converting Nations to the Fayth , might appropriate to anie Church , downe of the same . But , no Companie offereth to GOD , a cleane Sacrifice , from the rysing of the Sunne , to the setting of the same , but the Church of Rome . There-fore , the Church of Rome , is onlie , and properlie , the Catholicke Church . The Proposition , of this his Syllogisme , hee taketh from the Prophet Malachie . His Assumption , hee prooveth , stronglie , for-sooth , by an vndenyable Trueth ; That , Onelie , the Church of Rome , offereth all-where , the holie Sacrifice of the Messe . Which , hee maketh no question , but that is the onlie cleane Sacrifice , offered to GOD , all-where , from the rysing , to the setting , of the Sunne . And , thus , hee thinketh , his Conclusion can not fayle him . Eriphilus . And so I thinke , also , ( Eubulus ) and , I hope , shall thinke so still , for anie Aunswere you are able to make there-vnto : how-so-ever you would seeme , for-sooth , to make a verie light account of it ; and would , according to your manner , laugh-over those Argumentes , which most pintch you . Eubulus . Then , advert what I haue to say , and thinke , syne , what you please . The Condition of CHRIST His Church , set downe by Malachie , ( whence the Poet bringeth his Proposition ) I acknowledge , according to the Prophet his sense , and wordes ; which your man ( Eriphilus ) resumeth deceitfullie . The wordes are these ; From the ●…sing of the Sunne , to the going downe there-of , My Name shall bee great amongst the Gentiles , and , in all places , Incense shall bee brought to My Name , and a cleane Gift . These cleare , and distinct wordes , eyther ignorantlie , or fraudfullie , your man obscureth , perverteth , and involveth , to darken the difference betwixt expiatorie Sacrifices , or , Sacrifices for sinne , and other Oblations , of Prayse , or due Worship : vvhich , both , in their diverse Types , are most distinctlie put ; and , in the Anagogicke Veritie , must bee diverselie considered . And , this , your man doeth , to bring some Colour to his Assumption , which is impudentlie false . Neyther will the Offering of your Messe , ( which is neyther cleane , holie , nor a Sacrifice , but a most sacrilegious prophanation , of an holie Sacrament , and the moste detestable Idolatrie , that ever was defended for good Worship ) appropriate to Rome , the Offring , all-where , of Incense , and a cleane Gift , to the LORD . Are you so shallow a Man , in Scripture , ( Eriphilus ) that you know not , how all true Christians , anie-where , beeing made Kinges , and Priestes , to GOD , in CHRIST , doe offer vp to Him , the Sacrifices of Prayse ; even the Calues of the Lippes ? Doe wee not offer vp our selues , an holie , living , acceptable Sacrifice ; even our reasonable Service ? What-so-ever workes of Charitie wee , in the feare and loue of GOD , performe ; are they not Sacrifices ? and , accepted in CHRIST ? To doe good , and to distribute , forget not ; for with such Sacrifices , GOD is well pleased , sayeth the Apostle . Is not the Liberalitie of the Philippians , by the same Apostle , called , A Sacrifice of sweet Savour , and acceptable to GOD ? Your Man his whole Senses haue beene drowned in his Challice , when , so doltishlie , hee forgot him-selfe , as , to leaue no cleane Offering in the Church , but his monstrous Messe . As for anie other Sacrifice for sinne , but that one , and once for all , offered , wee acknowledge not : So , as your Messe may be well relegated , to sicke Swyne , for whom ( vpon conveaned pryce ) your Men haue mumbled out a million . Now , as your Questioner playeth the Cavillatour , both in that hee confoundeth diverse kyndes of Sacrifices , and , also , that hee acknowledgeth not , ( with cleare Scripture ) anie other cleane Oblation , in the Christian Church , but the Mischiefe of the Messe : So , hee illudeth , more-over , by reasoning from Sacrifice , and Oblation , figuratiuelie , and allegoricallie , spoken of ▪ to Sacrifice , and Oblation , in proprietie of signification : from typicall speaches , concluding not allegoricallie , but properlie ; and , that , most ignorantlie ▪ & foolishlie . The Prophets , fore-speaking of CHRIST His Kingdome , doe , ordinarilie , expresse the Condition thereof , vnder Legall Types , where-by it was fore-shadowed . Which is so evident , in all their manner of Dispensation , as it is marvell , if anie dare pretende , to misknow it . Speaking of the Conversion of Nations , a●…d , of their Association to the Church , they prophecie , That all Nations shall come yearlie , and worship at HIERUSALEM . Which , to vnderstand properlie , it were to bee a proper Asse in Divinitie . For , expressing of the great measure , of Light , and Knowledge , vnder the Gospell , they prophecie , That all men shall see Visions , and dreame Dreames : to declare , that the Worship of GOD , shall bee no more tyed to anie one place ; but that all-where , who worship Him , in Spirit , and Trueth , shall bee accepted . Isaia telleth of three Altars , to bee erected ; one in Iudea , one in Assyria , and one in Aegypt . And thus , to show how the worship of GOD , should bee no more confined within the Iewish natiō , or precinct of Canaan , Malacbie fore-telleth , That Incense , and a cleane Gift , shall bee offered in all places , and , that the Name of the LORD shall bee great , from the rysing of the Sunne , to the going-downe there-of . And , howe will you , out of this , make your monstrous Messe ? or , out of your Messe , make the miserable Mongers there-of , to bee the Catholicke Church , except , first , you make Mules of Men ? Or , is there anie , eyther Shame , or Sinceritie in disputing , when , vpon typicall Praedictions , Conclusions are inferred , in proprietie of Signification ? Philadelphus . You haue ( Eubulus ) made this their Sacrifice so vnsavourie , that I long to bee from it . I pray you , what is his fourth Reason ? Eubulus . Because ( Philadelphus ) the smell of the Romish Incense , I perceiue , is to you some-what loathsome ; for your Refreshment , you shall now haue an Argument , to laugh at ; if this may not mooue Eripbilus , to count it in vincible . Advert , then , a deadlie Demonstration . David sayeth , in the eyghteenth Psalme , And their sound went thorow all the Earth : There-fore , the Church of Rome , is the Catholicke Church . If one were set , in scorne , to play a part , to the Partie's disgrace , whom he representeth ; could he haue fished out , thinke you , a fyner Argument , than this is ? David , in the nynteenth Psalme , ( which some make the eyghteenth ) showeth , how GOD hath , in His works , so playnlie manifested Him-selfe , as no Nation in the world , can pretend any excuse of ignorance . Paul , in his Epistle to the Romanes , for taking from obstinate Iewes , all excuse , of their induration agaynst the Gospell , because the same was so playnlie , largelie , and powerfullie preached ; he , to this ende , citeth , and verie pertinentlie , the wordes of David . But , I pray you , by what Logicke will it follow here-vpon , that the Church of Rome , is the Catholicke Church ; more than the Devill , and his angels , who compasse the Earth , continuallie , roaring , & seeking whom they may devour ? or , then , the busie Emissaries of Satan , who compasse Sea and Land , to make a Proselyte , and make him doublie the chyld of the Devill ? We affirme , That the Gospell , at first , was so playnlie , and plentifullie , offered to the World , as , that , most justlie , for the contempt there-of , and because men loved Lies , better than the Trueth ; therefore GOD gaue men over , to strong delusion , & effectualnes of error : whereby Satan obtained a throne in the Temple , all the Earth folowing the Beast . And , that now again , that man of Sinne , by the revived light of the Gospell , is so clearlie revealed , as , who will not come out of Babylon , are willinglie blynded , and worthilie part-takers of her judgements . And now , ( Philomathes ) as I thinke , I haue aunswered to all your Rymer's foure Reasons , where-by hee would conclude CATHOLICKE , to bee a Marke of the Church , and proper to Rome . If you haue ought to reply , speake it : other-wayes , let vs heare more of your Man his Musicke . Philadelphus . No : but , by your leaue ( Eubulus ) my Song was first tabled . And you shall haue it short : For it is in honour of the Church of Rome , vvhich is daylie shortening . If Catholicke , can not a Marke bee counted , And shamleslie , as if it bee assumed : If vaynlie Rome , vaunts now of Vertues wonted , When shee is but a Carion consumed : If ov'r the Sayncts shee proudlie hath presumed : Her Sacrifices , if they bee but sinne : That Mother-Whoore , if duelie Shee bee doom'd : If all Her Silver , turned bee in Tinne : If Apostaticke , more than Apostolicke : Shee claymes , vnkyndlie , to bee call'd Catholicke . Philomathes . What-so-ever might bee replyed to you , ( Eubulus ) yet I will not insist farder , at this tyme. But , seeing that Philadelphus is so poeticallie disposed , as hee must vent his Verses ; I will sharpen him , with a new Subject , where-on to meditate his next Sonnet . Thus , then , our Man speaketh , of CONTINVANCE . CHAPTER IV. CONTINUANCE . THis is another Marke , most sure , The Church of CHRIST must still endure ; According as our Saviour sayd , When for Saynct Peter Hee had prayd : Simon , thy Fayth shall never fayle : The Gates of Hell shall not prevayle . The holie Ghost , your Comforter , Shall remayne with you ever-more : And I , My Selfe , your surest Friend , Will bee with you , vnto the ende . Saynct Paul sayeth the same Speach ; There shall bee al-wayes Men to preach : Apostles , Doctors , and the lyke , Into the Church Catholicke . If these bee not the Church of Rome , Then will I bee converted soone . Eubulus . You must not expect of mee , ( Philomathes ) that I will , so ▪ vnprofitablie , spende tyme , as to sift out , narrowlie , all your Man 's grosse Over-sightes ; because I eye but the mayne poynt : and , there-fore , you haue not to thinke , that eyther I spye no●… , or doe approoue , what in him I passe over , vntaxed . For , as , heere , hee vaynlie , and ydlie , payneth him-selfe , to prooue a poynt , which no man will denye , ( That the Church continueth al-wayes : ) So , for prooving heere-of , to alleadge , the particular Promise , made to Peter , That his Fayth should not fayle , hee is ridiculous , and sophisticall . For , in that place , the LORD speaketh of Peter's particular Fayth , that Spirituall Vertue , begotten in him , by the holie Ghost , which was his Victorie , where-by hee over-came , in that his temptation : and not the Doctrine of Fayth , as your Man hath , now , twyse , dotingly , expounded . As if the Falling , or Standing , of the Church , did hang on anie one particular Man his Apostasie , or Stabilitie . Hee , no lesse audaciouslie , fathereth a Lie , on the Apostle Paul , ( That , al-wayes , there shall remayne Apostles in the Church : ) For , except hee escape , by aequivocation , it is most certayne , that , in the most proper , and strict Signification of Apostleship , as it was an extraordinarie Function , but for a tyme , till the Foundation of the Church should bee layde , and the Canon closed : So , how-so-ever others , succeeding in Pastorall , and ordinarie Offices of the Church , and teaching the same Doctrine , and so keeping the Foundation layde by them , are , truelie , the Successours of the Apostles : Yet , that anie did succeede to the Apostleship , it is extreamlie false . For , the Church being constituted , extraordinarie Offices ceased ; as did the extraordinarie Gift , and manner of Calling , which maketh the Office. And , I even muze , if your owne Men , will not judge , this your Poet , worthie of punishment , that will haue Apostles continuing , al-wayes , plurallie , in the Church : seeing you all doe account this Dignitie singular to the Pope ; who onlie , now , in all the World , takes to him-selfe , the Monopolie of Apostolicall Benedictiō . Philomathes . It is the mayne poynt , where-in wee would bee resolved . For these other things , I am not to make Argument . Can you , al-wayes , denye , but that CONTINVANCE , is a proper Marke of the Church ? Eubulus . It is no more a proper Note of the Church , than Colour and Stature , are proper Notes of a Man. And , ( that I forget not my promise , as I come on them , one by one , to shew , the vayne sophistrie of your man's mayne Proposition , in all ) I affirme , That , as Vniversalitie was foolishlie brought by him , for a discerning Marke , betwixt Acclaimers ; so , also , is this , of Continuance : not , that I deny it , to bee an attribute , and common accident : for , certaynlie , since her first beginning , the Church both hath continued , and shall continue al-wayes . But , doe you holde this good Logicke , in your man , ( Philomathes ) of common accidents , to conclude , that they are proper Notes , and discerning Marks ? you know , that Proprium , is but one of diverse kynds of Predication : and , that what-so-ever , is proper to any thing , it conveaneth ( as Schooles speake ) Omni soli , & semper : that is , To all , to onlie , and al-wayes . But , Continuance , could not bee sayde of the Church , Semper : that is , at all tymes . For , at the first moment of Adam and Evaes Creation , ( who were the Church ) Continuance , of them then , had bene no true Predication , when as yet , no tyme had run . Besides , what-so-ever is a proper Note , it is so converted with the subject , where-of it is the propertie ; as that , if Continuance were a proper Note of the Church ; then , as none could be the Church , but which had continued , and did still continue : so , what-so-ever did continue , behooved to bee the Church , which you see , were extreamlie absurd . For , Heaven , and Earth , continue to this day : Satan , continueth a Liar , and a Murtherer , from the beginning ; and his Children continue Liars , and Murtherers , lyke their Father : and , the evill Seed continueth , even amidst the good Seede , in the Lord 's owne Fielde , till the last day of separation . So , as if with anie probable shew , your man would had CONTINVANCE , counted a concluding Marke of the Church , hee should haue added there-to , this Modification , That , what companie hath continued in the true Fayth , and Worship of CHRIST , that is His true Church . But , then , if hee should assume , that the Church of Rome , hath onlie continued in the true Fayth , and lawfull Worship of CHRIST , wee will denye it , as extreamlie false : and , tell him , that hee continueth impudent , to assume the Question . And , thus , you may perceiue , ( Philomathes ) that your man's most lykelie Marks , yet are no proper Markes , till they bee modified , by that one , and onelie demonstratiue , and truelie discretiue Marke , which at first I layde downe vnto you . Philomathes . But , ( Eubulus ) you must not escape vs at so cheape a rate . For , even vpon CONTINVANCE , a common accident , as you call it , I will establish our man's conclusion , for the Church of Rome . You will confesse , that the Church of CHRIST , hath continued al-wayes , since her first beginning , and must al-wayes continue , till her LORD'S returne : so , as shee can never fall away , absolutelie , from His Light , and Lyfe . Eubulus . This , I heartilie yeelde you . Philomathes . You will yeelde mee this also , That no companie can be sayd , to continue in the Trueth , Light , and Lyfe of CHRIST , which continueth not , in anie profession of His Name , or worship there-of , at all . For , to vse your owne comparison , al-be-it Colour , and Stature will not conclude , of the thing coloured , and quantified , that it is a man : yet this will bee a sure Position , That what hath neyther Colour , nor Stature at all , it can bee no man. Eubulus . This , I yeelde you also : but where-vpon , you may see , that your conclusion , shall bee but negatiue , to exclude vpon defects , & not affirmatiue , to argue vpon demonstratiue Markes . Philomathes . Then , advert , how I will , even affirmatiuelie , conclude , for the Church of Rome : That Companie hath onlie cōtinued , in the true Light , and Lyfe of CHRIST , ( and so is His Church ) which , onelie , of all others , hath retayned HIS Name , or anie Worship there-of . But , for manie Ages , the Church of Rome hath onlie , of all Companies in the Worlde , retayned the Name of CHRIST , or anie Worship there-of . There-fore , the Church of Rome , hath onlie continued in the true Light , and Lyfe of CHRIST : and so , onlie , is His true Church . Eriphilus . You finde , perhaps , Eubulus , that our Syllogismes , are poynted also . Eubulus . I will presentlie prooue , what eyther Poynt , or Edge , it hath ; and , how piercing so-ever you presume it to bee , ( Eriphilus ) yet make it to bee found as phlegmaticke , as you are cholericke . Of your Syllogisme then , Philomathes , ( where-by you conclude no thing to Romes advantage , if any other Churches may bee shewed , to haue continued in anie Profession , or Worship of the Name of CHRIST ) I grant the Proposition to bee true : for , no question , but that onlie with-in the compasse of the visible Church , and vnder the common Ensigne of Profession , the true Church , and all true Christians , are , and haue continued , al-wayes . And , as where-ever the Ensigne is , and the Name of CHRIST professed , how corruptedlie so-ever it bee in common , yet , there , possiblie , yea , probablie , ( I durst say assuredlie ) are some true , though weake , Christians : So , where that Name is not at all named , nor anie worship there-of , there no Church can bee sayde to bee at all . Your Assumption is both false , and deceitfull . And , to shew it evidentlie to bee such , if I should but oppose to you , the Aethiopian , and Indian Churches , which haue continued , and not onelie without anie Communion , but al-most without anie knowledge of the Church of Rome ; what could you finde , to say , against these Instances ? but , I will bee so indulgent , vnto you , as not to vrge them on you : I will , other-wayes , sufficientlie , so discover the deceit of your Assumption , as the falsehood of it may bee clearlie seene : for it contayneth a double fallacie ; one in the name of the Church of Rome ; the other , in that which is affirmed of it . For , if by the Church of Rome , bee vnderstood , the whole bodie of the visible Church , on which , for some Ages , by craft and ambitious vsurpation of Antichrist , in-throned in the Temple , the Character , Name , or Number of the Beast , were imposed in common : how-so-ever thousands , ever were in that communitie , who , rejecting , and detesting them , retained the Name of the Lambe His Father , and Character there-of ; and were of the 144000 sealed ones : and , manie , who , in simplicitie , received the Name , or Number of the Beast , yet never received his Character . Then , sophisticallie , and deceitfullie , you reason from the accressing Sore , and Gangrene in the bodie , ( and of which Sore , the name is but improperlie and tyrannicallie imposed on the bodie ) to the bodie affected there-with . When wee pleade agaynst the Church of Rome , wee pleade not against that bodie absolutelie , where-in that evill was , and that so farre obtaining , as it named the bodie after it selfe , ( while the Church of GOD dwelt , even where Satan's Throne was ) but wee pleade agaynst the evill , in , but not of , the bodie : not agaynst all , who were called the Romane Church , or Papists , or were counted of that number : But agaynst Papalitie , or Antichristianisme . Not agaynst all , who were , thorow common Contagion , perhaps , lightlie touched , or taynted with the Evill : But agaynst the Characterized companie , Antichrist his mancipated Slaues , and in whom the pestilent Evill , had eaten vp all true lyfe , and sense . So , as in this Case , for arrogating anie poynt , to the Mischiefe which wee oppugne , to oppose vnto vs , the common bodie , even heavilie affected , and , in common , over-gone with it ; it is no lesse absurd sophistication , than if one should confound the Dropsie , Iaundies , or Gangrene in the Bodie , with the Bodie in which they are , and drawe Conclusions from the one , to the other . If all the Bodie , were the Evill , then were there no Bodie . But , even a sicke Bodie , is yet a Bodie : and , how-so-ever so affected , in common , and , no part appeareth to be fullie free , but , that the Sore possesseth all : yet , so long as the Bodie liveth , and mooveth , performing naturall Functions ; it evinceth , that some Noble partes yet resist the Disease ; so as the Bodie , al-be-it heavilie affected , yet dieth not : yea , getting the true Medicine , and Divine Purgation of the Word and Spirit , will expell the Evill , and notiue Humour , and recover Health ; as Experience hath prooved clearlie , in manie Reformed , both Churches and Persons . Thus , ( Philomathes ) if in your Assumption , you meane , by the Church , that whole Bodie , absolutelie , on which that Name was fraudfullie , and tyrannicallie , imposed : then you conclude not your Poynt , but deceiue , by Aequivocation , ( A dici , ad esse ) from So called , and , wronglie called , to So is ; confounding that knowne Distinction of Logicke , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , where-of I spake before . And if , by the Church of Rome , you signifie the Papalitie , and Evill in the Bodie , which wee impugne , ( as you must , if you evince ought agaynst vs ) then is your Assumption clearlie false . For , both before that Evill invaded the Bodie , the Bodie was : and , even at the tyme of the waxing Sore , yet still continued , brooking some healthsome remnant of Spirituall Sense , and Lyfe : and , now , at last , by the Medicinall Vertue of the Word , and Spirit , is recovering Health , and destroying the , formerlie , destroying Disease . This will bee yet more cleare , by the discoverie of that other Fallacie , where-by , in this Case , of the Churches continuance , your Men partlie illude , and partlie are illuded . For , because the Church continueth al-wayes , they esteeme , and conclude falselie , That , there-fore , shee continueth still in one , and the same Condition of Light , and Lyfe : that is , That Trueth , and lawfull Worship , hath al-wayes helde place , and borne swey there-in , in common : so as what-so-ever Companie , or Doctrine , most , in common , obtayned , and carried Vogue , that was the true Church of CHRIST , and the true and Orthodox Fayth . And this is most absurdly false , and evinced to be so , not onlie by evident Experience , but also by cleare Scripture . For , all 〈◊〉 Church , & Trueth in her , hath continued alwayes ; 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 she bene subject to manie Wrestlings , Victories , Kything 〈◊〉 Eclypses : Shee is some-tyme darkened , ( sayth Augustine ) and is , as it were , over-clowded , with multitude of Offences : some-tyme , by tranquillitie of tyme , quyet & free she showeth her selfe : some-tyme is covered , and troubled with the waues of tribulations , and tentations . We confesse , that the Church hath continued always : but not as the presuming Whoore boasteth , I sit , being a Queene , & shall see no mourning : but , oft-tymes , afflicted , & tossed with tempest , & having no comforter . She hath still continued , but , as a Woman , ( even at first , while shee was yet cloathed with the Sunne ) traveling , and crying out , with payne : next , persecuted cruellie : thirdly , fleeing to the Wildernesse : fourthly , lurking , and fed there , while the beast of Satan's power maketh the Earth to follow him , by false pretence of the Lambe's horns . She hath cōtinued alwayes : yet so , as sometime ( while the Earth , Sea , Fountayns & Rivers , Starres , Sun & Moone , are eyther , first , in a great part , burnt , corrupted , made bitter , eclypsed , or totally , at last , darkened ) she consisted of a few secret sealed ones , exempted , in GOD'S merciful care , frō a common evill . Sometime , againe , she is of a number innumerable , with Palms in hād . Her state hath bene , sometime , as the temple closed , in relation to al the holy citie , & court of the tēple , trodden vnder foot of the Heathen : her Pastours , some-time , few , secret , ministring within the Temple , in sorrow , for prevayling Evils ; yet long without blood-shed , as being vnperceived . Sometime , again , vpō application of the true measuring Reede , ( for discerning the true Church , within the compas of so importable an impietie ) cruelly murdered , & barbarouslie intreated , evē with applause of the World. Sometime , agayn , in greater vigour , terrifying their enemies ; & , in open view , flying thorow the midst of Heavē , with the ever-lasting Gospell ; & separated from incurable Contagion , to come vp hither . Sometime , as now at last , comming so down on the earth , as it is all lightened , with the glorious shyning of the Gospell . Wee know , that the true Church hath continued al-wayes : Yet so , as , in a common Apostasie , where-by Antichrist obtayned a Throne , even in the Temple of GOD ; and all the Earth followed the Beast , receiving his Character , Name , or Number , ( while to the Beast his wondering Sectators , and charactized Slaues , it appeared impossible , that anie such Companie could bee ) shee consisted of 144000 secret , sealed , and chaste ones , following the Lambe ; and having a powerfull , and plentifull Dispensation of Grace , and a sweet sound of well-tuned Harps ; al-be-it none could eyther heare , or learne , their Song , but them-selues . Finallie , wee acknowledge , That the Gates of Hell never prevayled , or shall prevayle , agaynst the Church : but yet , they haue often assayled her , strangelie . And thus , in what-so-ever sense , your Assumption , Philomathes , ( That the Church of Rome , hath onelie , of all Companies in the Worlde , for manie Ages , retayned the name of CHRIST , and anie Worship there-of ) is eyther deceitfullie sophisticall , or evidentlie false . And so your Conclusion commeth to nought . Philadelphus . This poynted Syllogisme of yours , ( Eriphilus ) E●…bulus hath so blunted , as it will scarse serue to pricke a Pudding . And if neyther CONTINVANCE can bee a proper Marke of the Church ; and beeing modified , so as it may best seeme to bee one , yet is falselie assumed of Rome ; I see no better Conclusion , but that wee let her continue the Mother of Whoordomes , and that wee seeke the BRYDE , vvhere Shee may bee better found out . Of Propers , it 's a Propertie , that ever Of their owne Subjectes , they are surelie sayde : Satan shall nev'r CHRIST from His Church dissever . Continuance yet can not , tho , bee made Her proper Marke : let see how shee it had The verie moment of her first Creation . Some tract of Tyme must bee , of force , fore-layde , Where it is made a proper Praedication . This Poynt is al 's accorded amongst Clerks , No Common Cases can bee Proper Marks . Philomathes . Well , ( Eubulus ) giving you , that the Church continued not al-wayes in one , and the same Condition , of obtayning Trueth ; and , that , possiblie , Errour might haue prevayled in the whole Church , in common , but not vniversallie , in each within it : yet , except some visible , and seene Companie , ( how small so-ever ) may bee produced by you , who haue professed your Fayth , & Doctrine ; to whom you may , with anie show of Reason , acclayme the Title of the true Bodie ; & so , lay over , on vs , the name , and blame , of the Sore : vvhat is all your reasoning , but a poore , and verie improbable Paralogisme , A posse , ad esse , as Schooles speake ? And the poynt of our Syllogisme , is not yet so farre blunted , as Philadelphus would make it . Eubulus . To evince the possibilitie , it sufficiently meeteth all your Men : who , agaynst our Demonstrations , of GOD His Trueth with vs , and the Apostasie of the Church of Rome , oppose , al-wayes , and onlie , to vs , the impossibilitie , that anie such Case should befall the Church . So as mine Argument is not , as you speake , A posse , ad esse : but , of that where-of wee evidentlie evince the Esse , and you denye the Posse , to cleare the certayntie of both . But I see whither you tende : for you come , now , to vnder-proppe your declyning CONTINVANCE , vvith as weake a Warrand , of VISIBILITIE ; vvhich is your Man's next Marke , & which I haue , all-readie , so marred , with that which hath bene sayd to CONTINVANCE , as I shall haue but small a doe to hogh the Proppe ; that , so , both may tumble downe , in the Dust , to-gether . Eriphilus . I pray you , ( Philomathes ) goe forward , to the Marke of VISIBILITIE : vvhich , in the Continuance of the Church , commeth most fitlie to bee considered . And , this Marke shall best cleare our Church , and make Eubulus to bee seene , in all his Subtilties : For , so shall a Church bee found to haue continued , if shee hath continued visible : And you will perceiue Eubulus so pintched , with this Note , as he will vanish away , in his Invisibilitie ; and will giue vs a Church . continuing , for-sooth , a thousand yeares , by miere imagination . Eubulus . If I did so farre distrust our Cause , ( Eriphilus ) as that I would , there-fore , seeke to escape by Subtilties , why would I haue suffered my selfe , ( and that vnnecessarilie ) to bee drawne a-side , by you , to so ydle a Disputation , about that , where-of it is shame , for anie resolved Christian , once to make question ? For , how-so-ever , that , for Philomathes better satisfaction , I was , and am , contented to deale thus ; yet , what a senselesse thing , in effect , is this , That the Trueth of GOD , ( so clearlie revealed , and , which , by anie , having Spirituall Eyes , is as easilie discerned from Errour , as Light is from Darknesse ) for Man's vayne humour , should bee put to this forme , and Rule of Tryall ; That , except it may bee cleared , where , and with whome , it hath visiblie continued , wee will prowdlie , and rebelliouslie , reject it ? Which is no lesse , yea , much more , both ridiculous , and vnjust ; than , if the Sunne , long lapped vp , vnder Clowdes , and , there-after , breaking foorth , brightlie , should , therefore , by Dolts , bee denyed , to bee the true Sunne ; and , that it were but some Counterfey●… , and never-before-seene Comet : Because , for-sooth , their weake Eyes had not continuallie perceived , all the particular progresse of it . VVhereas , in anie true Sparkle of a Godlie , and Christian Disposition , and right Spirituall Wisdome , wee should thus reason : This is , evidentlie , the Trueth of GOD ; and , there-fore , how-so-ever it hath not appeared , to continue , or keepe place ; yet , I am certayne , that it hath never , all-to-gether , fayled , from amongst GOD His Children . An dt , his is Haeresie . There-fore , howe great place so-ever it hath had , or , how long so-ever it hath borne swey , even in the Holie Citie , and Court of the Temple , yet it is clearlie to bee casten out . And , in the beginning of our Dispute , I layde such Groundes , of the Evidencie , and Sufficiencie of Holie Scripture , for full Resolution , in these Poyntes ; as I might , well anough , haue excused my selfe , from diverting , thus vaynlie , with you , to these Questions , eyther of Continuance , or Visibilitie ; if I were in anie such perill , by your Praerogatiues in them , as you praesume . But , this cleareth you , ( Eriphilus ) that you are , now , come to your strongest piece : for anie feare where-of , I will not yet so farre vanish , as you wiene : But , even dismasking your Man , of this vayne , and so-much-vaunted-of Visard , of Visibilitie , I will , GOD willing , show him , in discerning of GOD His Church , to bee visiblie blynde : and , will not giue you a Church , by imagination , but , continuing , all-wayes , reallie , and visible , though not to Mules . Philomathes . Verilie , you make mee though not to vanish , yet to wonder at a little ; That you confesse , the true Church , to haue beene all-wayes visible : and , will make me wonder , yet more , if you performe what you promise . For , I ever imagined , that all your Defence , in this Poynt , had beene , to clayme vnto the Invisibilitie of the Church . But , you haue sharpened mine Appetite , to heare you of this Matter . Thus , then , our Poet speaketh of this Marke . CHAPTER V. VISIBLE . THis is another Marke most cleare , The Church of God must still appeare , As a Citie vpon an Hill , Shyne , and continue still , As a light , on a Candle-sticke , Such is the Church Catholicke . Our Saviour sayeth , If one offend , And will not bee ruled by his Friend , Tell the Church , without delay . And if hee will not then obey , Doe thou esteeme such a man , An Heathen , or a Publicane . Is not this the Church , where-in wee see , Two hundreth Bishops , thirtie three , To haue succeeded each other , Since the tyme of Saynct Peter ? Shew mee this Marke in you , And I will say , your Fayth is true . If it bee not the Church of Rome , Then will I bee converted soone . Eubulus . This is your Man's third Marke , and which you haue brought , to beare vp your decaying CONTINVANCE . But , I say , ( Philomathes ) that no more can VISIBILITIE bee a proper Marke of the Church , than could CONTINVANCE ; for , it is a common accident , of all visible creatures : So as , al-be-it I should yeelde as much of Visibilitie , as I confessed of Continuance , yet would it but serue for a Negatiue Conclusion , agaynst others ; but for no Affirmatiue Demonstration of your owne Church : And , thus , still , thorow all , your Man's mayne Proposition prooveth vayne . Philomathes . I must confesse , that Visibilitie , no more than Continuance , is a proper Note of the Church : For you haue clearlie evinced it . Yet , as , out of our Man , I framed an Argument , before , vpon Continuance ; so , nowe , I will , from Visibilitie , ( even a common Accident , as you call it ) conclude , not onlie negatiuelie , agaynst your Church ; but ; affirmatiuelie , of the Church of Rome . And , I reason thus : The Church of CHRIST is al-wayes visible . But , for manie Ages , no Church was visible , but the Church of Rome . There-fore , the Church of Rome , is the onlie Church of CHRIST . Eubulus . Such an affirmatiue Conclusion , jumpe , as was your former , vpon CONTINVANCE ; by a deceiving consequence , vpon the presumed Defectes of others . Which , as it beguiled you , in your CONTINVANCE , so will it fayle you here also , for it is the verie same . And , as I so over-threw your Argument , from CONTINVANCE , that you were fayne to flee to Visibilitie , for succour : so will I make , now , the weaknesse of this your Reason , from Visibilitie , not only visible , but even palpable also . Where-in , yet , I will not waste tyme , to show , how ridiculouslie , vainlie , and impertinentlie , hee laboureth , to prooue the Proposition , of this his Syllogisme . That hath beene oftener showed , than hee hath syllables in his Proper Ballad : neyther will I insist , to expose his follie , in bringing bare personall Succession , ( and not that which all orthodox Fathers call the principall , and proper succession ) and but of one particular Church , ( as if it had fayled in all other Churches ) for stablishing of his Assumption . What is true Succession , and who are true Successours , and how vnjustlie eyther are appropriated , or attributed to Rome , I haue cleared else-where . I come to the point it selfe : whereof , al-be-it I haue alreadie written at such length , as I might bee well excused , to referre you whollie there-to , ( my Bookes passing so commonlie in the Countrey ) yet , because in this Marke , as in the toppe of your strength , you glorie most , I will , GOD willing , in few words , vnfolde your Errour . This then , ( Philomathes ) is the Major , or Proposition of your Argument : The Church of CHRIST is alwayes visible . Philomathes . And you haue , al-readie , as I thinke , granted it : neyther see I , ( though you would recall your word ) what , goodly , you can say against it . Eubulus . I am to recall nothing of that I haue sayde : but yet I must cleare , in what sense this your Position is to bee admitted , for pulling your men from their ordinarie Starting-Hole of Aequivocation . For , how-so-ever , I will still grant , that , in some respects , the Church of CHRIST is alwayes visible : yet , I will denye your Proposition , if , from a restrict Case , you draw it to an absolute Assertion , because , in some consideration , the Church is invisible . And , to cleare this : In respect of the matter of the Church , ( which is Men ) and , in respect of the common outward forme , ( in the publicke & common Ensigne of Profession , & worship ) we confesse , the Church to bee , and , al-wayes to haue beene , visible . But , in respect of her inward forme , & the purpose of Grace , ( where-on chiefelie the Trueth of the Church hangeth ) she is invisible . And , the LORD knoweth , who are His. Schooles doe call the one , Rationē Signi ; & , the other , Rationē Beneplaciti . And , seeing it is an Article of our Faith , to belieue the Church ; and , that Fayth , is of things , which are not seene ; it followeth , of necessitie , that in some ( and that a most principall ) respect , the Church is invisible . For , to be believed , & to be seene , can not consist . Yea , this is so evident a trueth , as Bellarmine is forced to confesse it : these are his words , Melius dico in Ecclesia aliquid videri , & aliquid credi ; videmus enim eum coetum qui est Ecclesia ; sed quod ille coetus sit ipsa vera CHRISTI Ecclesia non videmus , sed credimus : that is , I say , better that in the Church some thing is seene , and some thing is believed ; for wee see that Companie which is the Church ; but , that that Companie is the selfe true Church of CHRIST , we see not , but belieue it . The one cōsideration , discerneth Christians , true or false , from open Idolaters , and Heathen men : the other , distinguisheth true Christians , from outward professours onlie , & commō worshippers . Now , as these distinct Cōsiderations should be sophisticallie confounded ; so you see , ( Philomathes ) that your Propositiō , taken absolutelie , were deceitfullie false . Philomathes . Even so much as you grant , will serue me for concluding of mine Argument ; so , as I neede not impugne your Distinction , or disadvow ought that Bellarmine sayeth ▪ I pleade , but that the Church is ever visible , Ratione Signi , ( as you speake ) that is , that the true , & Orthodox externall worship , and worshippers , haue beene al-wayes visible . For , it must bee some externall Signe , falling vnder Sense , and outward perception , which must bee a Marke of the Church , as you haue evinced agaynst vs , eve●… by our Bellarmine's suffrage : and , there-vpon , did bereaue vs of our first Marke of CATHOLICKE , or VNIVERSALITIE . Eubulus . As you even modifie your Proposition , ( Philomathes ) yet it implyeth a deceit , which you bewray , by your owne Glosse : That is , ( say you ) that the true , and Orthodox Worship , and Worshippers , haue al-wayes beene visible . Which , if you doe meane in this Sense , that , al-wayes , by the common Ensigne of publicke Profession , ( Ratione Signi ) it might ever haue bene discerned , where the true Worship , and true Worshippers were , and might haue beene seene ; I will heartilie yeelde you it . But , if he●…e-by , ( as your Men pleade ) you would signifie , that , all-wayes , and in common , lawfull , and true Worship , and , lawfull , and true Worshippers , haue so farre obtayned , & borne swey , as what-so-ever , in common , helde place in the Church , that was to bee esteemed Trueth : then , I still deny , even your modified Proposition . And , it is still one , and the same Fallacie , wherein , before , in the Mark of Continuance , you did fall ; and which , at length , I elided there . In my Distinction , Signi , & Beneplaciti , I tolde you , even now , That by the visible Ensigne , Christians , in common , good , or bad ; or Orthodox , or otherwayes , were discerned from Forraigners , and Heathen men . Now , heere-vpon , to inferre , That , by the common , visible Ensigne , ( in the cōmunitie of Christians ) true , & Orthodox Worshippers ; or , true , & Orthodox Worship , are discerned , from false , and adulterous , both vnder the same common Ensigne ; you may see , how chyldish Sophistrie it were . If Satan had but one way , of assayling the Church , namelie , by open , and avowed Hostilitie : and , if none , but lawfull , and Orthodox Worshippers , were vnder it ; then , had you reason , to make the cōmon Ensigne , of Visible Profession , a sure Marke , not onlie of Christians , in common , but even of true Christians al-so ; at least , of lawfull outward worship . But , seeing , that , both , by Scripture , and many folde Experience , we know , that , by no meane , he hath , so effectually prevayled , as , by transforming him-selfe , in an Angel of Light ; & , vnder pretence of the common Ensigne , to adulterate all lawfull vvorship ; of necessitie , for discerning the true Church , or approoved lawfull Worship , from the Abhomination of Desolation , ( both of them ( in sanctis Ecclesiae locis ) vnder one , and the same Ensigne , of Christian Profession ) wee must advert , not onlie whose Hornes are pretended ; but also , whose Mouth speaketh . So as , still , you may see , that even Visibilitie must bee reduced vnto , and examined , by our onelie demonstratiue Marke , which , in the beginning of our Disputation , I layde downe . Philomathes . I loue so greatlie to bee resolved , especiallie in this so mayne , and maynlie controverted a Poynt , as I will come farder with you , than , I know , our Church will allow mee : and , giue you this , That even Errour , might possiblie haue taken place , in the whole Church , in common : ( which Case I did , not obscurelie , put , at the beginning of our Conference , about this Marke ) yet , seeing wee accord in this , That CHRIST hath ever had a true Church : and , seeing that you yeelde mee this , al-so , That the same is al-wayes visible , in respect of the matter there-of , [ MEN ] and externall forme of Profession : ( which is , of necessitie , a certayne trueth ; in so farre , as not onlie with the Heart wee belieue to Righteousnesse , but also , with the Mouth , wee confesse vnto Salvation . ) How-so-ever , it eyther hath , or might haue fallen , that most part were misscarried , and that Adulterous worship , and Worshippers , haue had chiefe Rowme , and beene most conspicuous , and visible : Yet , how can you denye , but some number , at least , behooved to be , al-wayes , of lawfull Worshippers , and holding the Orthodox Fayth : vvho , both in their persons , and in their Worship , were visible , even in tyme of greatest Corruption ? Eubulus . Your vpright Dealing , and desire of Resolution , ( Philomathes ) maketh mee to let that freelie with you , which , with others , I would , perhaps , haue longer stucke vnto . For bringing you , then , to your Wishes , I graunt your Proposition , in your last declared Sense , to be true . But then , I say , of your Assumption , ( No Church hath remayned visible , but the Church of Rome ) that it hath the same fallacie in it , which I opened , and refelled at length , in the same Assumption of Continuance . For , if by the Church of Rome , you meane the cōmon bodie , of the whole visible Church , albeit even affected , with the over-going Evill ; & on which , for more effectual deceit , tyrannicallie the name of the beast sitting there-in , was by him imposed : then is your Assumption sophisticallie deceitfull , in reasoning , A dici , ( from , So called ) ad esse , ( to , So is ) and , concluding , from the Bodie absolutelie , to the Gangrene , or Sore in it , or , contrary-wayes , from the Evill in the Bodie , to the Bodie affected there-with , in common , but not vniversallie ; as before I showed . And , vpon your Assumption , thus vnderstood , your Conclusion will not follow . But , if by the Church of Rome , your Assumption meaneth the Evill , and Sore , agaynst which onlie it is that wee pleade , and not agaynst the common Bodie , where-of wee are ; then , is it manifestlie false : and , so , your Conclusion fayleth . Philomathes . But , except you cleare to mee , how , in that Bodie , besides that which you doe call the over-going Sore , there were some visible partes , brooking Health , and that visiblie ; I must still thinke , that your subtill Distinction , of the Bodie , from the Sore , is but vayne . For , I pray you , for manie Ages , who were seene , or knowne , to haue anie differing Profession ? or , to haue resisted , and condemned , the Church of Rome ? Eubulus . Now , consider , ( Philomathes ) how aequitablie you requyre that of mee . For , first , How-so-ever it may be easilie seene , and showne , in a Bodie , but contracting a Disease , whyle , as yet , all Members are not much infected , or affected there-with : or , agayne , in a Bodie , convalescing , whyle eyther all the Bodie is al-most freed from the Sicknesse , or , at least , the strongest , and noblest partes , haue expelled the Disease ; al-be-it , perhaps , the D●…egges there-of rest , a space , in the extremities of Handes , or Feete , and keepe them swollen . Yet , ( Philomathes ) it shall bee hardlie showne in a Bodie , in the prevayling height , and mayne Fit of the Sicknesse , when it hath so farre obtayned , as all parts of that Bodie , in common , are , eyther infected , or , at least , heavilie affected , yea , and even much afflicted there-by ; so , as no part can bee separablie showne , brooking , a-part , perfect health , without eyther Infection , or Affection . And , yet , even in such a Case , a Skilfull man , beholding , and considering , will perceiue , evidentlie , that it is a living , al-be-it a sick Bodie : yea , that such Strength , of naturall Vigour , yet remayneth there-in , al-be-it no-where vnaffected , which , both , resisteth the wasting Disease , even in the verie Paroxisme , and , in ende , by prevailing vitall power , & helpe of right Medicine , expelleth it . For , as in such a Bodie , if no remnant were of vitall Vigour , all Sense , and Motion , should be quyte extinguished : So , in a Bodie , totallie affected , & afflicted , al-be-it not vniversallie infected , it were a monstrous , & vnnatural thing , in such a Case , to see anie part of the Bodie , a-part , no-thing affected ; al-be-it there will , even in that Bodie , be parts , not infected : where-in , as in a citadle lyfe , & health residing , they frō thence , both fight against the over-going Evill , & , at last , become victorious over it . Of the Church of Sardis , it it said , That , having a name , that she lived , yet she was dead ; & , not-with-standing , is exhorted , to strengthen the parts which remayned , and were readie to die . And , even in this miserable Case , the LORD witnesseth , That even there , Hee had a few names , which had not defiled their garments : & , these yet stil lived , in the cōmuniō of that same Church , & were not known by any visible separation , frō the rest of that Bodie . For , separation is neither requisite , nor lawfull , till all hope of Cure be past . And , thus , neither were the faithfull ones vnder Antichristian tyrannie , till , after long tolleration , & much heavinesse , for the waxing Evill , at last , labouring to haue cured it , they were cruelly murdered , & , lay , barbarously , vnburied , & , insolentlie mocked , in the streetes of Babell , which neither would , nor could be cured . And , then , leaving her , as a burnt Mountayne , being , by divine warrand , commanded , to Come vp hither , they did separate themselues , not frō the Church , but frō the Contagions , and incurable Evill , in the Church , but not of it . For , wee would faine haue cured Babell , but shee would not . Next , ( Philomathes ) how-so-ever lightened men , each in their owne times , even in most desperate state , & condition , both might , and did see , some pure remnant , which were well knowne to the godly , then ; yet , how absurdlie is anie account of them required of succeeding Ages , to whose knowledge ( through repressing and suppressing tyrannie , of such as disposed of all Records at their pleasure ) nothing did come , but what obtained commonlie in that tyme ? In despite of all which , not-with-standing , so much testimonie hath remained , as may satisfie , and certifie , anie vpright mynde , That still Trueth was in the Church , & in all Ages had its owne Assertours ; al-be-it not all , in a lyke degree of contestation , even in most corrupt tymes ; as the Gatalogues of them , drawne vp by our Men , for meeting this your Objection , make manifest , if you please with an vnpartiall Heart to reade them . More-over , heere , agayne , ( Philomathes ) you stumble , at a double Deceit , in the word VISIBLE : in that , not onlie , you conclude , That , what-so-ever is visible , is , al-so , seene : but , there-with , al-so , vpon no open resisting , you inferre no being , most absurdlie . All men know , that from Tolleration , to Approbation , you can never stablish a Conclusion . Manie will , and , for manie Respects , tollerate that , which they are so farre from approoving , as they will vtterlie abhorre it . And , ( to keepe our former similitude ) how manie haue you seene , subject to great , and dangerous Diseases , and having their Bodies repleat with vicious Humours ; who , yet , whyle they could retayne anie reasonable condition of Health , would not adventure , to mooue the Bodie ; by expelling , with perilous Medicaments , the nociue Humours ? The Church of Pergamus , tollerated what shee neyther approoved , nor communicated there-with : but lurked , even where Satan's Throne was ; keeping the Name of GOD , who knew her Dwelling , and Case . Physicians come not to Burning , and Cutting , till the Evill bee , not onelie desperate , but , al-so , that the Lyfe of the Bodie is in danger there-by . Your Romish Evill , ( Philomathes ) did growe on slowlie , and by Degrees ; and came not to the toppe of Impietie at once : so , as the Degrees of Contestation , in difference of tyme , and diverse degrees of a waxing Evill , behooved to bee much diverse . And , neyther could the Case admit , or was it the LORD His will , that Contestation should bee , in the highest degree , till the Impietie came to the highest : though , even in the Growth , and subtill Successe , of that Mysterie of Iniquitie , manie , both mislyked it , and mourned for it : keeping , them-selues , the Name of GOD , and vttering , in their owne tymes , not obscure Signes of their Miscontentment . The other Poynt , where-in you are deceived , and which , in the first rowme , I propounded , is ; That vpon Visibilitie , you conclude Sight . But , manie thinges , and manie tymes , will bee visible , which yet are not al-wayes seene . Doeth not Experience teach vs , howe hardlie one Man will bee found out amōgst a thousand , evē by such as do both know him , and search after him ? how long , then , may hee lurke vnseene , of such as neyther know him , nor thinke of him ? And , in the midst of so great Repressing and Suppressing Tyrannie , what marvell , though they were , in common , vnseene , as not onelie beeing few , but forced also to lurke , and by GOD His Gracious Providence , covered from their Enemies furie ? This beguyleth you , ( Philomathes ) that you account , no worship eyther to bee at all , or to bee visible , but which is separatelie openlie , and avowedlie practized , in the common view of all men . Which , manifolde Experience , and cleare Scripture , teacheth vs , to bee an absurd Conception : and , which Case , neyther that course of tyme , and of the Evill , by GOD His permission , waxing , and obtayning in it , could suffer : and , which , in the wyse purpose of GOD His admirable Dispensation , was neyther needfull , nor expedient . Eriphilus . Did I not devine , rightlie , ( Eubulus ) to what pintches this Poynt would dryue you ? When all is done , what doe you , but vanish away , in your Invisibilitie ; giving vs a Church , by miere imagination ? A Church , invisiblie visible , and , visiblie invisible . Are you not ashamed , so to dallie ? Our Church was al-wayes visible , ( say you ) but it was not seene : and , I pray you , what a visible Church , is that , which none doeth see ? Eubulus . Ajax , transported with furie , ( Eriphilus ) did slay manie sakelesse Sow , in stead of Vlysses . And , you are , now , in great chafe , with your owne Shadow . I did not say , neyther ever mynded I to say , That none did see our Church : but , I , justlie , taxed a false Conclusion , led from VISIBILITIE , to common , and continuall seeing . For , manie thinges are visible , which yet neyther are , in common , nor al-wayes seene . And , this maketh not our Church invisiblie visible ; but it sheweth him , who will deny it , to bee visiblie blynde . I acknowledge , That , how-so-ever Antichristian Darknesse , hath over-gone the whole Church , in common , yet that ever still , with-in the compasse of that Vsurpation , vnder the common Ensigne , were numbers of true , and lawfull Worshippers , and , a true , and lawfull Worship : which were , al-wayes , visible , by the Ensigne , and common Bodie : as whyte is visible , in the rucke and heape , how-so-ever covered with the over-going Chaffe , or Strae , till the Fanner come , and purge the Floore . And , to come yet more neare , ( Eriphilus ) I say , That they were not onlie visible in this sort , but , al-so , in their persons , and practise of pure Worship : and , that they were seene , al-so , al-be-it not , in common , perceived . For , manie thinges , will bee both visible , and seene , al-so , which yet will escape perception , even of the Seers . Yea , which you will yet , perhaps , more admire , I affirme , That they were not onlie visible , and seene , but perceived , al-so ; though not in common , nor of the blynded worldlie sort , ( which was the LORD His Providence , for their preservation ; ) but only of their sealed Brethren , who were brought from the Earth ; and , being spirituall Virgines , onlie got Eyes , to see , and perceiue ; and , Eares , to heare , and vnderstand , that sweet , and high-tuned Song , which the Beast's stupified Sectators could neyther heare , nor learne . Now , then , though I affirme , and that justlie , That from Visibilitie , one may not conclude of seeing : neither , from seeing , may one conclude of perceiving : neyther , from both seeing , and perceiving , of seeing , and perceiving , in common : yet I deny not , but freelie , and truelie affirme , That our Church was all-wayes visible , seene , and perceived , but not of such as had no Eyes . Doe you not know , that manie thinges may bee visible ; which yet , through the blyndnesse of beholders , are not seene ? yea , and manie things are seene , which even the seers , ( through mis-regard , or over-vayling mist , or GOD , in justice , benumming their Senses ) yet , will not take vp , nor perceiue : which , yet , the illuminated , will both see , and perceiue clearlie . To reason , then , from Visibilitie , to common sight ; or , from Visibilitie , and common sight , to conclude common Perception ; or , to conclude of what is not seene , or perceived , in common , That it is not seene , or perceived , at all ; yea , is not visible ; yea , is not at all ; it is such a dead kynde of Argumentation , ( Eriphilus ) as , where-in all your choler will never kindle the lyfe of good Logicke . Howe manie Papistes , and howe much Popish worship , is , and that visible , within this YLAND , which , yet , is not seene , in common , or perceived ? Yea , ( Eriphilus ) though I bee visible , and you doe , al-so , both see , and heare mee ; yet , you neyther perceiue , nor vnderstand mee . How manie things will be lying , even hard by vs ; yea , before our Eyes ; which , yet , will wee not , a long tyme , perceiue , though , sedulouslie , seeking after them ? I aske you , ( Eriphilus ) was not Lot ; were not his Guestes , the Angels , ( in their condition , at that tyme ; ) were not his Wyfe , and Daughters ; was not his House , and the Gates there-of , visible ? Eriphilus . Doeth it agree with your pretended Gravitie , to aske of mee , such scornfull Questions ? Eubulus . That you may see , howe I doe , verie pertinentlie , and seriouslie , aske this of you ; I tell you , That , howe visible so-ever they were , yet they escaped the perception , of all SODOME , even greedilie groaping after them . The Sunne was visible , yea , & clearlie , both seene , and shyning , in GOSHEN , when , not-with-standing , in all AEGYPT , was palpable Darknesse . And , what wonder , then , though that great Citie , which , spirituallie , is called Sodome , and Aegypt , did not see , or perceiue , what , yet , was visible , seene , and shyning , in the midst of her ? And , what marvell , that they are still so blynde ; as , not to perceiue , howe these former thinges , in GOD His purpose , were Stampes of the lyke ; but , greater Cases to fall out there-after ? Was eyther ELISHA , or SAMARIA , or the Region , thorow which the ARAMITES were led , there-fore , eyther invisible , or not seene of them ; because GOD syled their Eyes ; that seeing , yet they should not perceiue ? But , ( Eriphilus ) to be yet more playne , and to come even close to your hand . As , before , I cleared , how the Church continued al-wayes , al-be-it not al-wayes in one , and the same Condition : so , I tell you , now , That the Church was ever , and in all Ages , visible ; how-so-ever not al-wayes in a-lyke measure of Health , and Spirituall Vigour : which is your Mens grosse Fallacie . A Man , even brought to bed with sicknesse , is no les visible , than when he walked abroad , in perfect health , albeit neither seen of so many , nor so healthfull as before . Your men are ridiculous , in asking incessantlie , where our Church was , before Luther : wheras the Church now , the Church in Luther's dayes , & the Church before his days , even vpward , to the infancie therof , is , & was , still one , & the same Church , & always visible : but , first , in health , & healthsom vigour : next , by degrees , contracting sicknes : at length , heavilie infected , affected , & afflicted , with that disease , whereof you , Eriphilus , are dangerously sick , & Philomathes hath somwhat tasted also : & now is convalescing , through the Medicine of the Word & Spirit : and alyke in all these cases , was ever , & is , visible , & seen also , according to her distinct conditions , in diverse tymes . Neyther haue wee another Church , or a new Church , as your Doctors would perswade the Simple : but the same Church ; & a renewed Church . Neither haue we forsaken the Vnitie , & Cōmunion of the Church , within which , & wherof we stil are : but we haue forsaken Babel , in the Church which hath ●…firmed her selfe agaynst al Cure. For , howsoever the sicke Bodie , was the Church , yet the Sicknesse oppugning , and wasting the lyfe there-of , was never the Church : and , al-be-it in it , yet never of it . Now , ( Eriphilus ) you see , I am farre from dallying , and , am come to more playne Dealing , than , perhaps , well pleaseth you . Philomathes . Verilie ( Eubulus ) I can not denye , but your Reasons are sound , and solide ; and , your Distinctions are subtill . But , it seemeth exceeding strange , that anie such Case , and so long a tyme , should haue befallen the Church of GOD : which maketh mee yet to suspect , that your Argumentes , are more out of subtiltie of Logicke , than according to the Veritie of the Matter : and , that , how-so-ever they evince , indeede , clearlie , a Possibilitie of such a Case : yet , that anie such Case , in trueth , was , they will not conclude : And , it were a rash Conception , so to thinke of holie Church . So that , according as ▪ I sayde before , you seeme still to reason , but A posse , ad esse , from Possibilitie , to Reall existence , which will not necessarilie follow . Eubulus . I confesse , ( Philomathes ) that the Case is , and will seeme , strange , to anie not acquaynted with the cleare course of Scripture , and the LORD His wyse , and wonderfull Dispensation , clearlie fore-tolde there-in , and fallen out accordinglie . For , the workes of GOD are wonderfull , and , Hee is marvelous , in the Case of His Saynctes . As , great is the Mysterie of Godlinesse ; so , al-so , is that of Iniquitie . And , without true illumination , to know the Scriptures of GOD , none ever shall attayne , eyther to the healthsome Knowledge of the one , or happie Discoverie of the other . But , ( Philomathes ) seeing you confesse , That I haue clearlie evinced the Possibilitie of such Apostasie in the Church , as where-by Errour may take place , in common ; and , that , yet , not-with-standing , GOD may , verie well , preserue Trueth , and true , and lawfull Worship , and Worshippers , al-be-it , in common , vnperceived : and , considering the manie , and capitall Poyntes , where-with so manie famous Churches , now , so long tyme , charge your Church of Rome : I aske you , If in this Case , you thinke her well defended , with the pretended Impossibilitie of Erring ? Or , if shee hath not great reason , both to suspect , what possiblie might befall her ; and , carefullie , to descende , to an exact Tryall , whether it hath so befallen her , or not ? Philomathes . Certaynlie , I thinke the weyght of so great Poyntes , as are in Controversie , to-gether with the Challenge of so manie Churches , requyre no lesse , than that Matters bee condignlie tryed , and examined : and , that a prowde Denyall , will not justifie anie , in such a Case . Eubulus . Well , ( Philomathes ) and , in so clearlie evinced a Possibilitie of Apostasie , as requyreth a condigne Tryall ; whether , thinke you , is it the surest way , to put the stable Trueth of GOD , revealed in His Worde , to this inaequitable , and vnsure Condition ; as eyther to approoue it selfe , by the Multitude , and Continuance of Holders , who , yet , may erre , or , then , to bee rejected ? Or , rather , to laye , for a sure Ground ; That , seeing it is Trueth , there-fore , it ought to subdue all Myndes , and take place agaynst all Praejudices , of Praescription , Praerogatiue of Holders , Tymes , Places , or Persons ? Because it dependeth , not on the vnstable Humours of Men , who are but , naturallie , Liars , and , may bee deceived . But , is , in it selfe , so cleare ; as , beeing admitted , purelie , to pleade for it selfe , it will , sufficientlie , approoue , and , justifie , it selfe , agaynst all , howe stronglie so-ever grounded Errour ; and all , eyther Qualitie , or Multitude of Mayntayners , or Praescription of Tyme . In short , ( Philomathes ) whether ought the Trueth of GOD , to bee subject to Men ? or , ought all Men , to bee subject vnto it ? And , which of these two Reasons , conclude strongest ? and , on which , may a Christian Soule , best rest ? This hath long had place , and Approbation , with most Men : and , there-fore , is the Trueth . Or , this is GOD His Trueth ▪ there-fore , it ought to haue place , even agaynst all praejudice what-so-ever . And , how-so-ever it hath appeared , to haue beene perished , from amongst Men ; yet , certaynlie , it hath remayned all-wayes . Philomathes . Verilie , I can not denye , but that it were a sacrilegious remeritie , to subject the Trueth of GOD , to Man : al-be-it , agayne , in the Question , what is that Trueth , I thinke , the judgement of the Church , and what hath long bene held of Her , should be much regarded ; and not rejected , without great , and verie cleare Reasons . Eubulus . That I yeeld you , ( Philomathes : ) and truelie , if , in the present Poynt of our Disputation , we had or could bring no more , but , ( as you alleadged ) the Possibilitie of the case : where-of no Evidence might bee produced , that accordinglie it had fallen out . And , if my Reasons , and Distinctions , in this Matter , were but from quirkes of Logicke , and not according to clearelie-fore-tolde , and , accordinglie , fallen-out Events , you had the lesse reason to regard them . But , besides the Possibilitie , which I haue evinced ; & besides the vndoubted Trueth it selfe , so clearlie delivered in Scripture , as may sufficientlie certifie a Soule , that , accordinglie , the Case hath fallen . The holie Ghost ( for our farder Resolution ) hath also , ( according to both the Possibilitie , and the event , in effect , agreeable ) so clearlie fore-tolde the whole particular Case , and Course , as , I may boldlie say , to whom it appeareth strange , They are yet great Strangers , in the written Word of GOD : and , in such great measure of Light , as now , in GOD'S singular Mercie , is revealed , who disdayne to learne , what even Artificers ( in such open and large offer of Grace ) are holden to know , they are worthilie blynded , in GOD'S just indignation . Wee are not onlie fore-warned , by the LORD Him-selfe , in the dayes of His flesh ; and , agreeablie , there-after , by the Apostle Paul , of such a common Apostasie in the Church , as where-by Antichrist should obtayne a Throne , even in the Temple of GOD : but , also , most amplie , particularlie , and delightfullie , vnder most goodlie , and significant Types , in the Booke of the Revelation , the whole course of Storie , is plainlie , and at length expressed . So , as ( Philomathes ) I haue not alleadged what probablie might be ▪ but what the holie GHOST hath playnlie , and particulie , fore-tolde , and , fore-warned vs , should come to passe : and , which , accordinglie , wee see clearlie performed . Yo●… Men are deceived , because they knowe neyther the ●…criptures , nor the Power of GOD. And , I am so farre from seeking subtill Evasions , in this Argument , as , I , vprightlie , protest , in the Presence of HIM , Whome I serue , in the GOSPELL of HIS Sonne ; That , ( laying aside the verie selfe cleare , and infallible Groundes of Trueth , delivered in Scripture , where-vpon agaynst all , eyther Probabilities ▪ or Praesumptions , our Fayth may , and must , solidlie relye ) there is no Reason , in the Worlde , so effectuall , to assure my Soule , of the Veritie of our Religion , and , that wee are of CHRIST His true Church ; as are the verie chiefe thinges , which our Adversaries doe object agaynst vs. Neyther anie so pregnant a Motiue , to perswade mee , ( laying aside the consideration of their playne haereticall Opinions ) that they are the Antichristian Bodie ; as even those things , where-in they doe , chiefelie , and , most insolentlie , glorie . Which , to cleare vnto you , at such length , and in such evidence , as I well could , and , the Matter , al-so , requyreth ; it were a longer Speach , than this short Occasion of Conference affordeth vs. But , if you list to take paynes , you may reade , what I haue , at more length , written heereof , in my DISPVTATIONS , FOR OVR CALLINGES , and , in my COMMENTARIE , on the REVELATION . VVhich , with the little that I haue nowe sayde , when you haue more deeplie considered ; then , if you remayne yet vnsatisfyed , how-so-ever I neyther loue , to contende vvith the Humourous , nor to multiplye Babling , vpon Blockes ; yet , I vvill , at your Desyre , not sticke , to take more paynes , vpon your Ingenuitie . Philomathes . I will , GOD willing , reade those Bookes , where-vnto you haue sharpened mine Appetite , by that which you haue nowe spoken : having , there-by , so filled mine Heart , with great Doubts , of such things , as I accounted inexpugnable poynts : that , I can not choose , but to insist , till I bee setled , as it shall please GOD to informe me , in that which is the right Way of His Feare . Philadelphus . How invisible so-ever wee bee , ( Eriphilus ) and how short so-ever you bee of sight , yet , I hope , you may , now , perceiue your owne foyle , in the chiefe Flowre of your Forces : so , as Eubulus hath not ( as you presumed ) evanished , in Invisibilitie , but , hath made all your , long , and vaynlie vaunted of , Visibilitie , to vanish , in a vayne Smoake . What 's visible ; but , there-to Visibilitie , In common , doth , though not a-lyke , conveane ? Why should the Bryde , without all Probabilitie , Visible hers , then singularlie , wiene ? Thinges visible , attour , are not aye seene : And thinges ev'n seene , yet will escape Perception , Of lightned Men : and what perceived beene , Mules agaynst that , will madlie make Exception . The Church was aye seene , visible , perceived : Of cleare , but no of rakie Eyes , that raved . Philomathes . Whether wee haue anie such Foyle , as you alleadge ; or , you such Victorie , as you presume , ( Philadelphus ) you are al-wayes readie to sing your owne Triumph . But , now , al-be-it wee haue , indeede , al-readie passed thorow these Markes , where-in wee esteeme our selues strongest ; and , that Eubulus hath ( I must confesse ) answered , more than I exspected : yet , I pray you , let vs heare what he hath to say agaynst the rest . The next Marke , is VNITIE : and thus our Poet speaketh of it . CHAPTER VI. UNITIE . THis is another Marke , truelie , The Church must haue VNITIE : As our Saviour hath fore-tolde , One Shepheard , and one Sheep-folde : One is my Spouse , one is my Loue ; One is my Darling , and my Doue . This is His House , and , at some-tyme , Hee doth resemble it to a Vine : HIS Father is the Husband-man ; A Branch is everie Christian. This is HIS Bodie mysticall , The which HEE doth HIS Kingdome call , Where-of Saynct Peter had the Keyes , And his Successours haue all-wayes . This is the Pillar , and the Ground , Where-in all Trueth is to bee found . So , lyke-wyse , Saynct Paul sayeth , One Baptisme , and one Fayth , And , one LORD IESU ; Haue no Dissention amongst you . Shew mee anie Companie , That in all Poyntes doe agree : Except the Holie Church of Rome , Then will I bee converted soone . Eubulus . That which , as I thinke , I haue evinced , of all your Man 's former Marks , I affirme , of this also ; That , it is , impertinentlie , yea , falselie , produced , for a proper Marke of the Church : in so farre , as it is a common condition of manie thinges , yea , all thinges that are , ( hoc ipso quod sunt , anum sunt ) even in that they are , they are , in that same , one ; as all Schooles acknowledge . The Devils are vnited ; for , Satan's Kingdome is not divided against it selfe : And , Briggands , banded to robbe , and sheede Blood , are one . So , as still , you see , that your Man's mayne Proposition , of his mayne Argument , is vayne , and sophisticall . Neyther will VNITIE , in all poynts , ever conclude more of the Church of CHRIST , than of the Antichristian bodie , except VNITIE , in all poynts , be modified : and , of an indefinite VNITIE , it be defined , an VNITIE , in all poynts , of Trueth . To which , only demonstratiue Marke , ( as I haue shewed of all the former ; ) so , this of VNITIE , must bee reduced also , if there-on , you would builde anie sure Conclusion . For , of the Antichristian Companie , the holie Ghost , hath in playne Tearmes , fore-tolde , These haue one mynde , and shall giue their power , and authoritie , to the Beast : and a little after , For GOD hath put in their Hearts , to fulfill his will ; and to doe , with one consent , for to giue their Kingdomes to the Beast , vntill the wordes of GOD bee fulfilled . And , this is , indeede , that VNITIE , where-of your Men , so much glorie , even a Conspiracie in Errour , and no true VNITIE in Trueth ; as their manifolde , and shamelesse Shiftings , ( in a cleare evidence , of a selfe-accusing-guiltinesse ) from subduing their doctrine , to just examination , by Scripture , the sole Rule of Veritie , make more than manifest . Now , Satan never yet envyed VNITIE , in Errour : or , ZEALE , in Superstition . Philomathes . Well : to let this goe with you , of VNITIE , which you haue , indeede , evinced , of the former : that it is no proper Marke : yet , as I sayde , and you also admitted of the others : so , you can not denye , of VNITIE , but that it is a true Attribute of the Church : and , that , therefore , our Man's Argument , for the Church of Rome , concludeth verie clearlie , thus : The Church of CHRIST , must bee a Companie , keeping Vnitie , in all Poynts . But , onlie , of all Companies , the Church of Rome , keepeth Vnitie , in all Poynts . There-fore , the Church of Rome , is the onelie true Church of CHRIST . Eubulus . I will not quarrell the forme of your Syllogisme , for that your Assumption , hath the nature of a negatiue Position . I say , your Proposition is sophisticall ; and , your Assumption , shameleslie , false : where-by , your Conclusion commeth to nought . As for the Proposition , though you shold modifie your indefinite , all Poynts , to definitlie , all Poynts , of Trueth : yet hath it in-folded a deepe Deceit . For , if it bee vnderstood , of All Poyntes of Trueth , so absolutelie , as , who keepe not Vnitie , in all , and everie poynt there-of , bee excluded from the Title of CHRIST HIS Church : then is your Proposition perniciouslie false . And , your Man would but , fraudule●…tlie , put foorth a bloodie Table of Proscription , where-by , cruellie , to forfault manie good Christian , and Church , from the Communion of the Bodie , even by a deceitfull confounding , of what-so-ever poyntes of Trueth , and , what-so-ever degrees of Division , or Dissention : which must bee wyselie , and carefullie , distinguished . For , there bee manie poynts of Trueth , wherein diversitie of judgement , breaketh not the Vnitie of the Church : Yea , and manie Divisions , and Dissentions , which , yet , divyde not the dissenting Members , one from another : or , if one from another , yet , neyther of them from the Head , or common Bodie ; from which those , onlie , may bee sayde , absolutelie , to fall , which holde not the Head , or , subvert , directlie , and with pertinacie , the Foundation . For , manie , in weaknesse , will holde Opinions , which , in-deede , doe even choppe agaynst the Foundation , by cleare , and necessarie Consequence ; but not immediatelie , or directlie . So , as , if you should challenge the Holders , of that which their opinion doth import , they wil not only deny it , but evē abhorre the sequele of that which they mayntayne , but not with that mynde . And , it were great want of Charitie , to judge a-lyke of these , and of the others . Wee are all , heere , still , compassed with Infirmitie ; knowing , but in part , and , prophecying , but in part . In which Case , the Apostle , charitablie , advyseth , That , Who are perfect , they bee so mynded : and , if anie bee other-wayes mynded , that the LORD will reveale it vnto them : but that , in the tyme , in that where-to wee are come , wee ought to proceede , by one Rule , mynding the same thinges . I confesse , & manie hundreths doe regrate it , with Teares , That the Infirmitie of Mens myndes , too farre in selfe-wiening , wedded to their owne Sense , and , not humblie receiving Information , or , charitablie comporting , with weake Brethren , ( according to the Apostle's Rule ) both hath bred , and still breedeth , too manie bitter , and vnnecessarie Distractions , and scandalous Schismes ; about such thinges , as , if Humilitie , and Loue , had over-ruled Mens Affections , neyther were , nor are , of such Moment , where-fore the Vnitie of Men , holding still one , and the same Head , and , keeping one , and the same Foundation , should bee so lightlie broken , or , the Peace of GOD His House troubled : But , the weaknesse , and , not duelie-mortified Humours of Men , maketh not the Trueth of GOD to fayle . That Dissentions , and Divisions are , it declareth Men , to bee , yet , in that part , carnall : but , it doeth not separate them , from the common Bodie , so long as they holde one , and the same LORD , one Fayth , one Hope , one Baptisme , and are vnited in one , and the same Spirit : no more , than did this Defect , in the Church of Corinth ; which , al-be-it , that , heere-fore , the Apostle did rebuke , as carnall , in that ; yet , hee still did intitle , with the Name of CHRIST His Church . And , though , by anie such Schisme , eyther a Person , or Companie , should bee divided , from particular , eyther Church or Churches ; it will not , therefore , follow , ( & I thinke , none dare avouch it ) that , there-fore , they are separated from the Head , or common Bodie : so , to make them in a-lyke Case , with haereticall Subverters of the Foundation , and , Deserters of the Head. Wee see , by Experience , in naturall Bodies , That , by inflicted Woundes , such Gaps will bee made , as the sides of the Wound , eyther from other , will start a-sunder : and , so , one part of the Bodie , by a separating Wound , will be severed from another part : which , both , will yet remayne still vnited in the common Bodie , and , bee part-takers of one , and the same common Sense , Motion , and Lyfe , from one , and the same Head , and Heart . Thus ( Philomathes ) your Poet's Proposition , absolutelie affirmed , is false ; even when hee hath modified his indefinite , All Poynts , to all Poynts , of Trueth . Philomathes . That no Vnitie argueth anie Companie , to bee CHRIST'S Church , but Vnitie in Trueth , I must needs confesse it : and , that everie diversitie of opinion , or everie degree of Distraction , doth not separate the dissenters , or distracted , mutuallie from other ; or , at least , eyther of them from the common Bodie , and Head , I cannot denye , but that you haue evinced it clearlie . Yet , so manie , and so materiall , are the Divisions amongst your Churches , and your Quarrels are debated so bitterlie : and , againe , so great is the Harmonie , and Concord , of the Romish Church , as , I thinke , giveth just Reason , to suspect of you , that you are not , nor can not , bee vnited , as you spake , in one , and the same LORD , Fayth , Hope , Baptisme , and Spirit : and , that the Church of Rome , hath onlie , and evidentlie , this Honour . Eubulus . Now , ( Philomathes ) you put the Lyfe of your Syllogisme , in the Hands of your Assumption , to stand , or fall , there-with . And , denying vs anie such Vnitie , as may argue a Church of CHRIST , you haue appropriated all to Rome , how justlie , we will , even now , examine : and , first , your Objection against vs , is , manie wayes sophisticall . First , if such bee accounted ours , who are none of vs , the imputation is vnjust . Wee acknowledge , and doe lament it , that there is too great Division , and varietie of Sects , calling themselues Christians , in the worlde : but , what doe most part of them , more , or so much concerne vs , as they concerne your Church of Rome ? out of whose dongue , as noysome Flees , they are bred : and by Satan's craft , comming to fly on , vpon our Churches , ( that by the mixture of their Poyson , they may bring the Trueth in disgrace ) are onlie , by vs diligentlie resisted , and their Errours clearlie convinced : while , in the meane tyme , your Romish Church , ( whose brood they are ) is carelesse of anie thing , but to suppresse the Trueth ; and , calumniouslie , to lay over , on vs , the Stinke of their owne Excrements . As for such , whom we will not disadvow , in common , ( how-so-ever wee will not justifie the Ambition , Giddinesse , and bitternesse of some particular Men , who , as fyre-brands , disturbe , humurouslie , and vnnecessarilie , the Peace of the Church ) I affirme , that no such materiall Poynts are in differ betwixt vs , in common , wherefore , wee , both , may not , and ought not , embrace others , mutuallie , as Brethren . Which , that wee doe not , it is our weaknesse , and the malicious worke , of but a few evil-inspired Instruments ; seeking more their owne Estimation , than GOD his Glorie , and good of His Church . And , that no such Separation is betwixt vs , but that , how-so-ever , by a cruell Wound , of mercilesse Hands , wee are separated , one of vs , from another ; yet wee are still joyned in the common Head , and in the common Bodie , each of vs to other . So , as your Man 's odious enumeration of Protestants , Puritanes , Calvinists , Zwinglians , and , if you list , to adde to them , Lutheranes , also , is but a calumnious traducing , of such , as , most part , are not separated eyther from other : or at least , how-so-ever , by some weaknesse , they bee in that sort distracted , yet , are but one Bodie , joyned in one , and the same LORD , Fayth , Hope , Baptisme ; and informed , all of them , by one and the same Spirit , al-be-it not all , in a-lyke measure . Amongst whom , there is no just breach of Communion : how-so-ever , that , by a Wound , of some cruell and dispitefull Men , those you doe call Lutherians , are , vnnecessarilie , separated from the rest : but , none of vs , from the common Head , and Bodie , in which we are still vnited , and will be yet more & more nearlie : our Concord , in GOD , and His Trueth , growing , as your Vnitie , in Evill , shall be broken off : the will of GOD being fulfilled , in all the worke of Antichrist's deceit , justlie vpon the Worlde , for contempt of His Trueth . And , thus ( Philomathes ) your Assumption , where-by you denye vs anie such Vnitie , as , of necessitie , is requyred in the Church of CHRIST , for keeping , justlie , that Account , is false . And , no lesse false is it , al-so , in that , what you would robbe vs of , you doe appropriate to Rome : which can not bee , truelie , praysed for anie Vnitie , except that which before I mentioned , out of the seaventeenth Chapter of the REVELATION , which is the onlie Vnitie proper vnto her , and , accordinglie , there fore-tolde of her . For , other-wayes , shee hath fallen away , foulie , both from the Head , and the Foundation : and , can never bee sayde , to haue keeped Vnitie with the true Bodie ; other-wayes , than the accressing Sore , or Apostume in the Bodie , but not of it , may bee sayde , to bee one with the Bodie . And , your Man bewrayeth , verie well , howe poorelie provyded hee is , of anie sure probation of his Vnitie : when , for all Argument , where-by to evince an Vnion , in one LORD , one Fayth , one Hope , one Baptisme , and one true , and sanctifying Spirit , hee is not ashamed , impudentlie , to take that , which is the verie mayne poynt in question . Whither , I pray you , did his Poëticke Furie transport him ; when , without blushing , to sustayne his Assumption , on which all the lyfe of his Cause depended , hee brought this onlie , and goodlie , Argument ? That Church , onlie , keepeth Vnitie , in all poynts , which cleaveth to the Pope . But , the Church of Rome , onelie , cleaveth to the Pope . There-fore , the Church of Rome , onlie , keepeth Vnitie , in all poynts . The Proposition of this his Demonstration , he prooveth , by this ; That the Keyes of the Kingdome of Heavē , were given to Peter . But the Pope is Peter's Successour . Ergo , doe you requyre mee , ( Philomathes ) to make anie aunswere to these your Man his Raveries ? Or , if hee had beene set , of verie purpose , to play the Praevaricator in the Cause , which hee pleadeth ; could hee more ridiculouslie , I will not say , haue reasoned , but raved : Wee neyther deny , nor envy your Church , her Vnitie with the Pope ; al-be-it , in christian Compassion , wee pittie it . But , wee deny , your Mischiefe to haue anie Vnion , eyther with the Head , Foundation , or Bodie , except as a Sore in it , but not of it . And , to cleare yet farder , the falsehood of your Man's mayne Assumption , of Vnitie , ( That the Church of Rome , keepeth Vnitie in all poynts ) and how vayne hee is , in vaunting there-of : if your Poet had as carefullie picked out the Partialities of his Romish Church , ( even in this their damnable and cursed conspiracie ) as hee hath , with a perverse mynde , and poysonable Eye , pryed in our Distractions : What great matter , of Insulting , hath hee , or anie of his profession , against our Churches , for any Division , betwixt vs , and these whom they doe call LVTHERIANS ? If he were as powerfull a Peace-maker , as he prooveth an impertinent Pratler , he might haue found , at Home , to worke vpon , not only great Dissentions , but even as bitter , and materiall , Digladiations , as anie is amongst vs. When al our Controversie , amongst our selues , about the manner of Presence , and participation of CHRIST , in the sacred Supper , is duelie weighed ; what shall bee found , there-in , comparable to the manyfolde Debates , amongst your Schoolemen , about the manner of their prodigious TRANSSVBSTANTIATION ? whence , as from an horrible Hydra , so manie monstruouslie diverse Heads haue sprung vp , in their Schooles , as never will bee reconciled , till Fyre , from Heaven , burne vp all that intoxicated Bodie . When your Poët shall put at one , the Scotists , and Thomists ; the Franciscanes , and Domicians ; the Schoole-men , and the Canonists ; their other Clergie , and the Iesuists ; when Blacke-well , and Bellarmine , shall accord , vpon that mayne Poynt , of the Pope's Supremacie : ( which , to belieue , and that both , In temporalibus , & spiritualibus is , de necessitate salutis : that is , Necessarie to Salvation , sayeth the one partie ) then might hee , with the more credite , praesume , to taxe our Distractions : Loripedem rectus derideat , Aethiopem albus . Now , then , your Man's Proposition , of his mayne Syllogisme , of VNITIE , beeing sophisticall , and , his Assumption , clearlie false ; he will hardlie , I trow , vpon such Antecedents , conclude well , that the Church of Rome , is the onlie true Church of CHRIST . Philadelphus . You haue admitted the Church of Rome an VNITIE ; but , such , as where-in they haue neyther anie matter of Glorying ; and are , but even scarse , well vnited in that same sacrilegious Societie . Who are vnited , onlie , but in Evill , And , scarselie well are in that same compacted ; Lesse may they glorie , than their Guyde the Devill , Whose Kingdome is not , in it selfe , distracted . Killers , and Rogues , are , in a Course , contracted . That Concord , onlie , comes to bee commended , When vncorrupt Companions , vncoacted , For Trueth , and truelie , are to-gether bended , In Unitie , which is not thus defyned , Fiends , Robbers , Killers , may bee close combyned . Philomathes . As Eubulus in doing his best , to take from our Poët , the prayse of a deepe Divine ; so , I perceiue , ( Philadelphus ) that you mynde not to permit him the Monopolie of the MVSES . But , now , it resteth , to speake of the Note of HOLINESSE : and , I much muze , ( Eubulus ) if , as of all the former , so you will affirme of this al-so , That it is no proper Marke . For , I am sure , that to nothing vnder Heaven , doeth the propertie of HOLINESSE conveane , but to the Church of CHRIST onlie . And , agayne , ( according to the Law you alleadged of Propers ) that what-so-ever Men are holie , they must bee of the Church of CHRIST : for , Holinesse becommeth His House . Philadelphus . The Prophet ELISHA , beeing consulted by great Personages , and vpon great Poynts , called for a Minstrell . And , mine Advyse were , ( Eubulus ) before you aunswere to this Marke of HOLINESSE , that , even for refreshing of our Spirites , a little , 〈◊〉 heare their Man's Melodie , vpon that poynt . Eriphilus . As your Myndes are mistuned , you may , perhaps , finde your selues , nor greatlie cheared there-with . For , how-so-ever , Eubulus , lyke a slipperie Eele , by subtilties of Distinctions , hath slidden thorow all our preceeding Marks ; yet , as Philomathes , hath rightlie sayde , I hope , HOLYNESSE , is such a sure one , as you can not deny ; except , you would once , and in this one Poynt , prooue true Men , even to professe your selues , a prophane Companie . Eubulus . What-so-ever a propertie wee shall finde HOLINESSE to bee , yet , ( Eriphilus ) I take bitter Passion , to bee no proper Poynt of it . And , therefore , what-so-ever your Man's Musicke , might worke in vs ; yet , shall it not , incontinentlie , come praesentlie in place , for mitigating , of your owne Cholericke Motions , by some greater Sympathie : which , perhaps , it shall finde in you , than it can waken , vp , in our ( as you call them ) mistuned Myndes . Therefore , Philomathes , bring out your Cure quicklie , for succouring of your Companion . Philomathes . In-deede , the consideration of HOLINESSE , would requyre , a calme Constitution . And these are our Man's Verses there-of . CHAPTER VII . HOLYNESSE . THIS you say , in verie deede , When you rehearse the Nicene Creede ; One Church Catholicke , Holie , and Apostolicke . This is another Marke , truelie ; The Church must bee holie : Holie Men , holie Service , Ceremonies , and Sacrifice , Sacramentes , and holie Dayes , Are observed in her al-wayes . As for the Sayncts , and Martyres all ; And Virgines , which you Saynctes doe call : Whose Names are in your Kalendar , When lived they , and where ? In what Religion was it they died ? By whom were they Canonized ? If it were not the Church of Rome , Then shall I bee converted soone . If they were not your Companie , Then is your Fayth , an Haeresie . Philadelphus . I am , against both your Wish , and Expectation , ( Eriphilus ) so farre cheared with your man's Poësie ; as , if it may not trouble your cheare , I would aske , even chearfullie , of you ; why hee hath passed by the Apostolicke Creede , ( which , with some more credite , hee might haue cited ; and , where-in , hee might haue found , al-so , the propertie of HOLYNESSE ) to alleadge the Nicene ? for , if hee thought , that this word [ Apostolicke ] would haue marred his Metre , by making his Lyne a foot longer : yet , the shortnesse of his immediatelie , subsequent verses , might haue recompensed that slippe : neyther hath hee beene , in the rest of this Ryme , so squimmish , as to stand too praeciselie , on footes ; or , halfe footes . Eubulus . Wee will let this passe , ( Philadelphus : ) for as I protested before , I am not to insist , in taxing all his absurdities , no , not in the Matter , much lesse in his Metre , which is lesse materiall , I come to speake of this Marke of Holinesse : and , before I enter to examine the Man's Logicke , I will yeelde this much , That , this once , hee hath fallen on a true Propertie of the Church of CHRIST : yea , and I will grant thus much more , That al-be-it all properties be not Marks , ( because more is requyred for being a proper Marke , than onlie to bee a proper Attribute ) yet , that Holinesse is even a proper Marke of CHRIST His Church ; but , where-in the Church of Rome , hath as litle , and lesse advantage , than in anie of the former . And , for clearing of this , ( Philomathes ) I must , first , put out your Man , from the Lurking-denne of Aequivocation , where-in your Doctours delight to lye ; and , thence , to shoote at the Innocent , in secret . For , if , by Holinesse , bee meaned , that sanctified Disposition of the Soule , and Affections , by the Spirit of Regeneration , wrought in all true Christians ; in that Sense , it can bee no Marke , because GOD , onlie , knoweth the Hearts of Men. And , wee concluded , before , with consent of Bellarmine , That all Markes must , of necessitie , fall vnder Sense . And , agayne , if by Holynesse , bee meaned , that which is seene , and exposed to perception , in Mens outward carriage , according to the Law of Righteousnesse , in Manners , and common conversation ; neyther , thus , can it be a proper Marke of CHRIST HIS true Church . For , that , by the restrayning Vertue of GOD HIS Spirite of Administration , even Heathen men , and Infideles , will appeare , in all morall Vertues , matcheable to Christians ; except , that wee know , that what-so-ever is not of Fayth , is sinne . Was not Paul vnrebukeable , as concerning the Law ; while , yet , hee was not onlie no Believer , but even a cruell Persecuter al-so ? Philomathes . How-so-ever outward Righteousnesse may not bee a sure Marke of Men , considered absolutelie ; for that fayre carriage , which by the restrayning Vertue of the Spirit of Administration , will bee even in Heathen men : yet , ( as you did , in short wordes , make answere to your selfe ) that what is not of Fayth , is sinne ; and , that , there-fore , no Heathen conversation , how approoved so-ever , can be counted for true Holynesse : So , amongst Professours of Christianitie , I thinke , that Holynesse in lyfe and manners , must bee a most sure discerning Mark , wherby to know the true Church , as which must , in them , bee praesumed , to proceede of Fayth . And wee are a-searching of such Notes , as in the communitie of Christians , all acclayming the Title of the Church , may discerne the Vpright , from the Bastard , in that same kynde . So , as your Objection , of Heathen carriage , in this case , is clearlie the same Sophisme , which , you may remember , that , before , you taxed in our Men. Eubulus . Doe you not knowe , ( Philomathes ) that , even amongst Professoures , not only will Hypocrites , in all these Outwardes , appeare to goe farre beyonde , even the moste sincere , and single-hearted Christians ; but , even superstitious , and corrupt vvorshippers , yet in a blynde zeale , vvill seeme to keepe more preciselie , the vvaye of HOLINESSE , and RIGHTEOVSNESSE , than who haue more , and truer Light ? And if no more were to leade you , to knowe , that HOLINESSE , in this kynde , can bee no Marke , this , alone , might tell it you ; That your owne Men , all-wayes , in their Disputes with vs , about the true Church , Doctrine , and Worship , doe reject , ( and that justlie ) all Argumentes brought by vs , agaynst anie persons , or personall actions of Men. How-so-ever , agayne , in charging vs , they doe forget them-selues , so farre , as , all-wayes , to fall to personall , and , those , impudentlie false , and vnjust Criminations . So , as you may see , that , of necessitie , this Marke of HOLINESSE , must bee vnderstoode of an holie , and lawfull Worship , and holie , and pure Doctrine . And , al-be-it I confesse , that this can never bee anie-where , but , that , there-with , al-so , shall bee some number of Names , both inwardlie sanctified , by the Worde , and Spirite , and , al-so , showing foorth their Fayth , by their workes : yet , it is the HOLINESSE of Doctrine , and lawfull , and pure Worship , which is the proper Marke of the true Church : and , not eyther the inward Sanctification of the Soule , which we see not : or , the onlie outward Manners , where-in wee may bee deceived . of your Man's Argument , I will nowe set it before you , that you may see the Force there-of : That Companie , which , onlie , hath in it holie Men , holie Service , Ceremonies , Sacrifice , Sacraments , Dayes , &c. must bee the Church of GOD. But , in the Church of Rome , onelie , these are to bee found . There-fore , the Church of Rome , is the onelie Church of GOD. Now , to grant his Proposition , or Major , in such Sense , as where-in I haue , all-readie , cleared , and you , all-so , ( Philomathes ) haue confessed , That , onlie , it can consist . I denye his Assumption , or Minor , as which is shameleslie false : except , by the onelie , sure , and layde-downe Rule , hee prooue it . Philadelphus . You must attende ( Eubulus ) the Probation of his Assumption , in the next Proper Ballad , that happeneth to breake out of the Super-aboundance of his Poēticall Veyne : and , suspende his Conclusion , till then . And , that , in the tyme , hee may , the more seriouslie , set himselfe for it ; what , if from his owne Groundes , where-of hee glorieth , one should drawe this contrarie Conclusion ? That Companie , which hath turned all the Worship of GOD , ( Who will bee worshipped , in Spirit , and Trueth ) in a prophane Histrionicke Farce : which teacheth , for Doctrines , the Traditions of Men ' : which burdeneth the Consciences of Christians , ( whom their Lord will haue to be free , saith Augustine ) with innumerable ydle , & superstitious Ceremonies , of Mans inventiō ; in the multitude whereof , all true Religion , is not onlie buried , but , al-so , lost : Which , after that perfect Sacrifice , which CHRIST offered , once for all , offereth still Expiatorie Sacrifices , for Sinne : Which devyseth Sacramentes of their owne , which they haue not received from the LORD : Which , superstitiouslie , keepe Dayes , and Tymes : Which set vp Saynctes departed , and erect Images , to bee worshipped , with Religious Adoration : Who , glorying of Fathers , and Martyres , are , them-selues , Persecuters , and Murderers of the Sayncts : That Companie can not bee the Church of CHRIST ; but is , vndoubtedlie , The Antichristian Synagogue . But , such is the Church of Rome . There-fore , the Church of Rome , is not the true Church of CHRIST , but is , The Antichristian Synagogue . Now , as your Man 's stout Asseveration , of holie Service , Ceremonies , Sacrifice , Sacraments , Dayes , &c. will not exeeme your Church from the Stayne of this Conclusion ; except you try , & verifie them to be such , by that onlie Touch-stone , which , in anie case , you desyre never to bee touched : so will his vayne Acclaiming of all the Sayncts , Martyres , and Virgines , contayned in our Kalendar , and the pretended canonizing of them , much lesse helpe him . What they haue beene , who are contayned in our Kalendar , wee are not much curious to inquyre ; because wee holde it not for a Register of Sayncts , but for a civill Rule , where-by to calculate Tymes . And I praesume , that Ianus , Iulius , and Augustus , are none of the number written in Heaven , as , perhaps , no more are some others , vvho are written in the Kalendar ; vvhose Names , yet , in civill vse , may serue fitlie for Notes of Tymes . And I thinke , verilie , your Poet hath lost , both the Yeare of GOD , and Dominicall Letter , al-so , when hee is prooving Religion , from the Kalendar : which , wee esteemed , ever should bee cleared from Scripture . And , hee hath dipped his Mynde so deepelie in this Studie , as hee asketh , when , and where , they lived . But , foolish Man , it is neyther the ryme , when , nor the place where , anie Man , eyther liveth , or dieth , that maketh him a Christian. But , that third thing in his Question , which , onlie , for all ; except to multiplie Babling , hee should haue asked , namelie , in what Fayth they lived , and died ? And , then , wee answere , That , if they were Saynctes , indeede , they both lived , and died , in the same Fayth which wee holde ; and were even of our Companie : which Companie , is not defined by Tyme , when , or place where , but by the vnion of what-so-ever persones , in what-so-ever place , and of what-so-ever tyme , in one LORD , one Fayth , one Spirit , on Baptisme , &c. for all Sayncts are sanctified by the Trueth : and , Thy Word is Trueth , sayeth our Saviour . And , giving this , that all these Sayncts had beene , not onlie in the Companie of the Church of Rome , then , but , also , that they had beene of her Companie , ( for manie , even now , are in her Companie , which are not of it : Come out of her , my People , sayeth the Spirit ) and holding one , and the same Fayth , which Rome , at that tyme , helde : yet , as Eubulus hath now more than once tolde you , What will anie Prayse , or Praerogatiue of Rome , then , make for Rome , now , which is not now of the Companie of Rome , then ; but is the Synagogue of Satan ; where-as , Rome , of olde , was of our Companie ? Eriphilus . What ? ( Philadelphus ) will you make those , whom the Church of Rome hath Canonized , to bee of your Companie ? they were Canonized , I tell you , may Ages before Luther was borne . Philadelphus . Of their Canonizing , ( Eriphilus ) I will not , now , much dispute , whether it was farther , eyther to their honour , who were so Canonized ; or to theirs , who sacrilegiouslie praesume to rob GOD of His proper Honour , in making Sayncts : or to the reproach , and disgrace , of both . I am certaine , that whom GOD hath sanctified , hee is , and will bee , a Saynct , though the Pope , and all the Conclaue , had concluded the contrarie : and , whom GOD hath not sanctified , no power in the Worlde , can make holie . I say , that in this your glorying , of Canonizing Saynctes , you haue as valide an Argument , for the Church of Rome , as the building of the Prophets Tombes , and garnishing of their Sepulchres , was for the Iewes , whose Fathers were Murderers of the Prophets , and them-selues , crucifiers of the LORD of Glorie . And our Fayth , ( Eriphilus ) was not borne , with Luther , no more , than your Heresie , was borne with you : but , our Fayth , is the same Fayth , where-by all Faythfull , in all Ages , and Places , ever lived : as yours is that same deceitfull Illusion , which , even in the Apostolicke tymes , Satan was a-hatching : and , which , having by slow degrees , mounted to so monstrous an height , is now , agayne , neare the dead-trach , to the Devil 's great displeasure . Philomathes . If EUBULUS , and I , shall giue over to you , PHILADELPHUS , and , to ERIPHILUS , the reasoning of this Matter , I feare , wee must provyde vs , some-where , of long Weapons , to goe betwixt you , so Satyricke are you , and so Cholericke is ERIPHILUS . Philadelphus . Verilie , ( Philomathes ) I mynde not to free Eubulus of that Taske , where-of hee can much better acquyte him-selfe , than I am able : and , if Eriphilus take my Counsell , hee shall beholde you all-so , to pleade your part . And , it is not so much anie Satyricke Speaches of myne , ( as it pleaseth you to call them ) which haue marred Eriphilus Mirth , as Eubulus sad Syllogismes ; vvhereby , hee hath so sacked all your Poët his proper Markes , as , how-so-ever , at first , rejecting my Sonnets , hee summoned vs to Syllogismes ; yet , I perceiue him , now , so surfeyted with them , that , in a compassion of his Cholericke Passion , I will yet , vouchsafe him one Sonnet , to swadge it ; where-in , hee shall not challenge one Satyricke Syllable . Catholicke can not bee to Sense subdued : Continuance is but a common Case . Things Visible , are often-times vnviewed . What 's Unitie ; if it bee not in Grace ? Hypocrisie , some-tyme , ●…surpes the place Of Holynesse , if true Light bee not Leader . Who Flesh , for Spirit , who Shades , for Sooth , embrace : The more devote , more doting they 'r , and deader . Would'st thou stand stay'd , ' gaynst all , both Doubts & Dangers , Follow CHRIST'S Voyce , and flee the voyce of Strangers . Philomathes . I knowe not , howe your Sonnet hath wrought on Eriphilus mynde : but , verilie , you haue made your worde good , in this , That in all your Sonnet , there is not one Sarcasticke Syllable : all-be-it it bee so full of Sentence , as you haue compryzed , in a short Summe , the Drift of all Eubulus Discourse , agaynst our Man's Markes . But , nowe , both the Day , and the Way , are shortening : and , wee haue , yet , one Poynt , to passe thorowe : namelie , of HAERETICKES . You haue beene so difficill , ( Eubulus ) to graunt vs the Title of the true Church , and haue so farre set at naught all our Notes : as , I would gladlie heare , how you will cleare your owne Churches , from this imputation of HAERESIE , which our Man , heere , at great length , layeth agaynst you . Eubulus . If hee could haue prooved his power in anie thing , hee would , chiefelie , haue imployed it , for the credite of his owne Church , and Cause . Where-in , if hee had prevayled , hee should , with one , and the same travell , haue over-throwne vs , all-so . As , accordinglie , you see , howe , in all his alleadged Markes , hee laboureth , to appropriate them so to Rome , ( and , there-vpon , to conclude of her , That shee is the true Church ) that , there-with , all-so , by a Consequence , in his Conceit , cleare anough , our Churches , as defectiue , vvere condemned by him . And , in-deede , if hee could possiblie haue well instructed the one , vvee had the lesse place to pleade agaynst the other . For Romes Iustification , should , sufficientlie , convince vs ; lyke as the justifying of our Churches , showeth her to bee Satan's Synagogue . But , if I haue made him to bee seene a weake Souldiour , for him-selfe , it may well bee praesumed , that hee will prooue no great Masteries agaynst vs ; how-so-ever hee assayleth vs , with an Armie of Interrogatours ; if so bee , that by the hudgenesse of the number , in common , the particular imbecillitie , of each severallie , might bee supplyed . And , to manifest this vnto you , ( Philomathes ) in all his Ryme , ( inscrybed HAERETICKS ) hee racketh his Ingyne , to prooue our Churches , to bee haereticall , even by this mayne Argument : To whome the Notes of Haeretickes , doe , properlie , conveane : and , in whome manyfolde Defectes are found , which can not befall the true Church : they must , of necessitie , bee haereticall . But , to the Protestant Churches , the Notes of Haereticks doe , properlie , conveane : and , manyfold Defects , which can not befall the true Church . There-fore , the Protestant Churches , are haereticall . The Major of this Syllogisme , is so clearlie true , as it can not bee gayne-sayde . Howe hee prooveth his Minor , wee will trye , GOD vvilling , when you haue read vnto vs his Verses there-on . And , first , concerning the first poynt of haereticall properties , to which I will , first , make aunswere : and , there-after , with no great a-doe , wee will over-turne all his Interrogatours , of those Defectes , which hee would father vpon our Churches . Philomathes . Then , take heede , howe hee descrybeth you . CHAPTER VIII . HAERETICKES . OVR Saviour warnes vs , to haue care , Of false Prophets to beware , That in His Name should come : Not sent , yet they would runne : Thieues , not entring by the Doore , That kill , and steale , and keepe a-store : Wolues , in Sheepes cloathing , To kill Soules , and steale the Teaching : Thistles , Thornes , corrupted Ground , On whom no good Fruit is found : Living after their Lusts , truelie ; Whose god is their owne Bellie : Dogges , Foxes , and Masters of Lies , That new Sects will devyse ; Bringing in Dissention , And heape to them-selues Perdition . These Markes agree with you , More than the Pagane , Turke , or Ievv : For they denye the Name of CHRIST , And counterfeyt no Christian Priest. Eubulus . Stay there , Philomathes : for in these Verses , is the probation of that first poynt of his Assumption , whereby the Notes of Haeretickes are affirmed of vs : and , now , I pray you , advert a deadlie Demonstration , where-by you sayde , jestinglie , that hee descrybeth vs : Those Marks , given vs , to discerne Haeretickes , conveane but to such as professe the Name , and Worship , of CHRIST . But , you Protestants , professe the Name , and Worship ▪ of CHRIST . Therefore , these Markes conveane to you : and , consequentlie , you are Haeretickes . Now , how Cholericke so-ever you take Eriphilus to bee in this Cause ; yet , I will even admit him Iudge , of this sad Syllogisme , where-by your Poet will prooue vs Haeretickes . Would you allow mee , ( Eriphilus ) to conclude your Ballader , a barking Dog , thus ? Barking can conveane , but to living , and sensitiue Creatures : but , your Ballader , is a living , and sensitiue Creature : therefore , barking conveaneth to him ; and , consequentlie , hee is a Dog. Eriphilus . Hee is verie skillesse in Logicke , who knoweth not , that of miere Affirmatiues , in the second figure , no thing can conclude . And , you but skornfullie afforge to our Man , so senselesse a manner of Argumentation . Eubulus . I am content ( Eriphilus ) it be esteemed so of me ; if , bending there-to all your Skill in Logicke , you shall bee able , out of your Man's Verses , to frame anie other forme of Conclusion , than that , which you say , I haue afforged vnto him . This is the summe of his last read Verses ; Such , and such , are the Notes of Haeretickes : which Notes , conveane , onlie , to Men professing CHRIST ; for , to Iewes , Turkes , and Paganes , who denye His Name , they can not bee competent . But , you , Protestantes , professe the Name of CHRIST : and , there-fore , &c. Philomathes . Verilie , ( Eriphilus ) I feare , that both our Skills , in Logicke , shall , hardlie , finde out a better forme of our Man's wordes : where-in Eubulus hath so opened a chyldish over-sight , as I can not find , wel , a Vayle to cover it . Eriphilus . At worst , it is but a fault in forme ; which , in a well-consisting matter , may bee soone mended . Eubulus . But , I pray you , ( good Eriphilus ) though you had a Syllogisme , at your owne shaping , will you ever finde matter , where-of to make it , or , vs Haeretickes , by it ; in this , that we professe CHRISTIANITIE ? or , putting it even to the Racke , will it afforde anie reason , where-fore to bynde on vs , the Notes of Haeretickes , more than on the Church of Rome , which professeth the Name , & Worship , of CHRIST , all-so ? Except you will bee allowed , to reply , as one of your Profession , one day , disputing with mee , of Antichrist , ( when I propounded an Argument , where-by I concluded , that of the Pope ; in place of resuming the partes of my Reason ) aunswered mee confusedlie , and confidentlie , That , finde him out , as wee could , otherwayes , the Pope could not , possiblie , bee once suspected to bee Antichrist , for hee is CHRIST HIS Vicar . Shall wee bee counted Haeretickes , ( Eriphilus ) onelie , because it pleaseth your Poet , so to call vs ? To whome these Notes doe most fitlie agree , let the rightlie-illuminated , judge : and , Hee will judge one day , who judgeth righteouslie , and , whose is all judgement . VVee passe verie little , to bee judged by your Man : yea , wee judge not our selues . Philadelphus . You are too sharpe sighted , ( Eubulus : ) hee hath thought , that vnder the sweetnesse of Poesie , such a slippe in Logicke , might haue easilie beene concealed . Eubulus . That might haue beene praesumed of Syrens , singing vnto Swyne . But , to leaue the Man , with his owne Logicke ; I would demaund of you , ( Philomathes ) why , in so long an Enumeration of haereticall Notes , hee hath passed over those , where-by the holie Ghost witnesseth , that Haeretickes , and of this tyme , may bee moste clearlie knowne ? And , what a Conscience doeth it argue , to amasse a number , where-of the application may breede but jangling ; and , to keepe silence , of the moste notifying Notes of all ? Philadelphus . You still mistake the Man , ( Eubulus : ) Charitie beginneth at ones selfe : and , accordinglie , their Poet is so full of Selfe-loue , as hee never mynded to produce ought , where-by to praejudge his owne cause . Philomathes . But , what are those Notes , ( Eubulus ) with the fraudulent omission , where-of you doe charge our Man ? Eubulus . I will essay , by a more formall Syllogisme , than hee framed agaynst vs , to leade you both to know them , and to acknowledge of them , that they so nearlie touch your Romish Church , as might make your Man thinke , they were no Wares , for him to exhibite : What Companie teacheth Doctrines of Devils , and , by Devilish Dealing , doe verifie them-selues , to bee Satan's Children ; that Companie must bee Haereticall . But , the Church of Rome , teacheth Doctrines of Devils , and , by Devilish Dealing , doe verifie them-selues to bee Satan's Children . There-fore , the Church of Rome , is an Haereticall Companie . Philomathes . In-deede , ( Eubulus ) your Syllogisme hath a better forme , but a much badder matter . Eubulus . And if I make the matter , as good as the forme , then all shall holde good ; where-in , yet , ( that I may bee charitablie conceived ) I meane by the Church of Rome , ( as I haue , now more than once signified ) the Evill in the Bodie , not , absolutelie , the Bodie affected there-with : the Papalitie , not all , who are named Papists : not all , who haue the Name , or Number of the Beast , but who haue his Character . Philomathes . If , even thus , you make your matter good , wee haue lost a Gayne . Eubulus . Then , let vs examine the partes of mine Argument . I hope you will admit my Major . Philomathes . It can not bee denyed . It resteth you , to prooue your Minor. Eubulus . My Minor , or Assumption , chargeth Papalitie , or charactarized Papistes , with two maligning Markes ; Doctrines of Devils , and Devilish Dealing . I will , first , prooue the one , and then the other , also . That the Church of Rome , teacheth Devilish Doctrine , I prooue it thus : Who forbid Marriage , and command to abstayne from Meates , which GOD hath ordayned to bee received with Thankes-giving , they teach Doctrines of Devils . But , the Church of Rome , forbiddeth Marriage , and commandeth , to abstayne from Meates , which GOD hath ordayned , to be received with Thanksgiving . There-fore , the Church of Rome , teacheth Doctrines of Devils . Philomathes . The Major of your Argument , is from Paul , and can not bee denyed . I distinguish your Minor : for , if you say , that the Church of Rome , eyther forbiddeth Marriage , absolutelie , and , as a thing , absolutelie , and in it selfe , damnable : or , commandeth , to abstayne from Meates , absolutelie , as from thinges , absolutelie , and in them-selues , vncleane ; ( which is the forbidding , and commanding meaned of the Apostle ) then is your Assumption false . But , that the Church of Rome , in some respects , and to some persons , forbiddeth Marriage ; and , in some respects , commandeth , to abstayne from some Meates , I doe not deny . But , this is not agaynst the Apostle his mynde ; who prophecied , in that place , of some ancient Haeretickes , in the Primitiue Church , who , absolutelie , damned Marriage , and diverse sorts of Meats , as , in them-selues , polluted . Eubulus . If so serious , and hazardous poynts , bee well , or wyselie , put vpon the danger of so cavillatorie a Distinction , devysed by Men , I report mee to your owne Conscience : that , others , before , haue beene in the same sinne , and , perhaps , in some farder degree there-of ; what doeth that excuse the Romish Church ; which , in anie degree , praesumeth to forbid , and command that , the forbidding , and commanding where-of , the holie Ghost affirmeth , to bee Devilish ? Is not this to play , and that even perilouslie , in a serious matter ? The Church ( you say ) doeth not condemne Marriage : but , the Apostle maketh even the forbidders there-of , to bee Devilish Doctors . And , yet , if who are in the flesh , are , in that , to bee condemned , ( by the Apostle's Doctrine : ) how can you absolue your Romish Church , of condemning Marriage ; when shee affirmeth , of married persones , That they are in the flesh ? Now , where you affirme , the Apostle , in that Prophesie , to haue eyed onlie the ancient Haeretickes , absolute condemners of Marriage , and Meates ; all circumstances of the place , evince , manyfestlie , that hee neyther eyed them onlie , nor principallie : but , that also , and principallie , the holie Ghost eyed your Church of Rome . I let this goe , that hee speaketh of the latter tymes , which yet ( I am perswaded ) hath a narrower relation , than that , where-by , I know , you will seeke to shift this poynt . Hee speaketh , there-with , of such , as , by great and cunning Hypocrisie , should haue so great place , as , by Authoritie , to forbid , and command . But , it is well knowne , that the ancient Haeretickes , mayntayners of these Doctrines , were , in their verie first out-setting , exsibilated , and abhorred , commonlie , of all : and , that , both they , and their Doctrine , soone evanished . So , as , it is playne , that so serious a warning of the Apostle , is chiefelie , in regard of more dangerous Doctours , and so farre , by Hypocrisie , obtayning place , and authoritie in the Church , as to come prowdlie to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , ( interdicting , and commanding . ) And , thus , ( Philomathes ) all your distinction , of myne Assumption , is vayne , and cavillatorie : and , so , will never vindicate your Romish Church , from the guilt of my Conclusion . Philomathes . Verilie , all-bee-it I dare not condemne the Church , or suspect rashlie of her , in these , or anie such poyntes : yet , I will not deny , but that I could haue wished her , to haue beene lesse audacious , in so perilous a Case , and to haue given you lesse advantage agaynst her heere-in . But , goe forwardes . You tooke , all-so , for to prooue , agaynst our Church , That , by Devilish Dealing , they verified them-selues , to bee Satan's Children ; which was the seconde poynt , of your mayne Assumption , agaynst vs. Eubulus . I prooue it , thus : Who are Liars , and Murderers , like their father , the devill , their Dealing is Devilish ; and , they verifie themselues , there-by , to be the Devils Children . But , the Church of Rome , are Liars , and Murderers , lyke their Father , the Devill . There-fore , their Dealing is Devilish ; and , they verifie of them-selues , that they are Sathan his Children . Eriphilus , Is this , for-sooth , the calme Conference you protested for ? And , are you the Man , that so farre abhorreth bitter Contention ; who falleth , thus , not onelie to Bitternesse , but even to open Reproaches , and impudent Rayling ? Did not you , in Disputation , about Poyntes of Doctrine , disallow all personall Criminations ? Where-in , to all , and anie Instances , which you can bring agaynst vs , when we haue opposed as manie , and as odious , on your side ; shall not all our Dispute , but finish in a foule Flyting ? Eubulus . I haue neyther , as yet , touched anie man his person , or spoken of anie personall Action , of Lying , and Murdering ; neyther mynde I , by anie such Instances , to strengthen mine Assumption , howe manie , and howe tragicall so-ever , I might easilie produce , and those of recent Practise . So as , thus once agayne ( Eriphilus ) heate , hath made you too hastie . What-so-ever Instances you might oppose to mee , of our Men , in personall Recriminations ; yet , I am sure , that you shall never verifie of anie , on our side , that they teach , and , by publicke Bookes , mayntayne , That it is lawfull to lie , and to commit Murder . So , as , if I prooue , that your ROMANISTES , not onelie practize privilie , but , all-so , teach , yea , and mayntayne , openlie , That it is lawfull to lie , and murder , I hope , I shall make mine Assumption good ; and , yet , never a whit , there-fore , declyne from the course of a calme Conference , and Rules of a lawfull Disputation . Eriphilus . When you cleare so great a Calumnie , then shall I confesse my too great heat in an evill Cause . Eubulus . Will you not graunt mee , ( Eriphilus ) that , vvho prayse the Arte of Simulation , and Dissimulation , to bee both good , and profitable , and , call it Prudence , and Vertue , yea , and a good Prudence : and affirme , That who vse it , are to bee praysed , those are Teachers , of Men , to become Liars ? Eriphilus . You will not , so easilie as you trow , get mee in-trapped , with your Interrogatours : for , there is some even Godlie and prudent Simulation . Eubulus . I mynde no such Circumvention , as you feare , but moste playne Dealing , for gayning of you , more than my Poynt . And , to showe you howe farre I am , from entertayning impertinent Plea , I will not , now , question with you , about this , howe well anie Simulation may bee made to accord with Prudence , and Pietie . But , let the Instances , which I shall produce , beare witnesse , vvhether they bee such , as may escape vnder this your Sconse . As for the Position , which I haue brought , in all the Poyntes there-of , your owne Man , Martinus Navarrus Aspilcueta , ( vvho hath written a whole Treatise , of Aequivocations , in Favoures , as hee professeth , of the Iesuites , In Cap. humanae aures , 12. Quaest. 5. ) affirmeth playnleie , In d. Cap. humanae , Pag. 352. & Pag. 349. Et pag. 351. Eriphilus . You may , perhaps , vvrong him , in this Imputation : But , and though anie one such Man hath vvritten so , yet ought it not bee counted a common Fault of our CHVRCH . Howe manie of your Men , mayntayne Poyntes , which your CHVRCH , yet , disadvoweth in common ? Eubulus . If I doe wrong him , his Booke , and places there-of , alleadged by mee , will witnesse . And , that his Doctrine , is a just Imputation , agaynst your Church , is cleare , by this ; That Pope Gregorie the thirteenth , approoved , and ratified his Doctrine , as ( Sanctam , & inconcussam ) holie , and stable . And , besides him , Gregorius de Valentia , a lesuit , Tom. 3. Disput. 5. Quaest. 13. de reo . punct . 2. calleth AEQVIVOCATION , ( Prudentem Defensionem ) a wyse Defence . The fore-named Navarrus , in d cap. humanae aures 22. Quaest. 5. Pag. 348. recordeth , and highlie prayseth an Aequivocation vsed by Saynct FRANCIS : vvho , beeing asked , by the Sergeantes , persuing after a Murder , If such a Murderer had passed that way ? did put his Handes , in his Gowne Slieues , and aunswered , That hee had not passed that way . Vnderstanding , with himselfe , contrarie to common perception , that hee had not passed thorowe his Slieues . And , the sayde Navarrus , addeth , even there , ( Hanc Doctrinam de Aequivocationibus , fundari in illo insigni facto magni illius Patriarchae FRANCISCI : ) that this Doctrine of Aequivocations , is founded , vpon that noble Fact , of that Great PATRIARCH , Saynct FRANCIS . Philadelphus . Besides that common dislyke , which al-most all the other Romane Clergie haue of Iesuites , I thinke , that the Cordeliers haue heere a proper Quarrell , and a most competent Plea , and Action , agaynst them : who thus take vnto them-selues , wrongfullie , the Craft of AEQVIVOCATION ; which , beeing founded on the noble Act of Saynct FRANCIS , should , with all reason , haue remayned the Propertie of his Familie : as , accordinglie , they were called , once , commonlie , LYING FRIERS : till , now , the Iesuites haue so farre encroached vpon this their Right , as that , how farre so-ever the Friers bee still set to mayntayne their Title , yet the Iesuites doe farre exceede them , in all the cunning kyndes of Aequivocation . Eubulus . It is an vnlucklie Debate , where-in the Victors greatest Honour is , that , there-by , hee prooveth to bee the more neare sib vnto Satan . But , to prosecute my Matter ; The same Navarrus teacheth , that a person accused before a Iudge , who proceedeth not ( juridice ) lawfullie , is not holden to confesse the Trueth : but , may vse AEQVIVOCATION , mentallie reserving within him-selfe , some other thing , than his wordes doe sound : yea , eyther in Answere , or Oath , to his Iudge , or Superiour , that hee may vse a Bout-gate of Speach , ( Amphibologia ) whether through a diverse signification of the word , or through the diverse intention of the asker , and of him that maketh answere , and although it bee false , according to the meaning of the asker : in cap. Ne quis . can . 22. quaest . 2. The same Navarrus , instructeth a Witnesse , to depone , that hee knoweth nothing ; reserving this within him-selfe , no thing that hee is holden to tell . And , hee giveth the same instruction , to Pleaders , who are requyred to giue their Oathes , de calumnia , or , of Veritie , Pag. 151. Toletus , a Iesuit , and a Cardinall , teacheth these same healthsome Lessons , Instruct. sacerd . lib. 4. cap. 21. Iacobus Sylvanus , aliâs , Keller , Iesuit , teacheth the same , Philipp . contr . Anonymum , &c. pag. 5. Besides all these , ( Eriphilus ) doe they not teach men to bee Liars , who affirme , that no Oath given to an Haereticke , or Infidell , is to bee keeped ? And , yet , this was both inacted , and practized , in the Councell of Constance . Iacobus Simancha , Episcopus Pacensis , de Catholic ▪ institut ▪ cap. 46 , al-so avoucheth it . Conradus Brunus , de Haereticis , lib. 3. cap. 15 , determineth , that no Pactions , Conventions , Lawes , Confirmations , ( rescripta ) where-by Haeretickes obtayne Peace , and Securitie , ought to bee keeped , or counted of anie force , or effect . Now , if wilfull , and even purposed Perjurie , may bee counted Pietie ; and if such impudent instructions of disguysing Trueth , you esteeme a prudent Simulation , ( Eriphilus ) I thinke him pittifullie imprudent , who hath anie dealing with you . Philomathes . I beseech you , ( Eubulus ) no more of this . For my part , I never lyked of that Doctrine of Aequivocation : And , I thinke , verilie , that the Church hath beene evill beholden to those Men , what-so-ever they were , who haue brought that Blot vpon the Catholicke Fayth . Eubulus . Then , ( Philomathes ) of all others , the Church is worst beholden to the Pope , who hath approved , and confirmed , and yet still ●…hamelessie mayntayneth , that disgracefull Doctrine . And you , who see the Evill , are yet worse , than wo●…st of all , beholden to your-selues ; who , in so playnlie , a perceived Praevarication , yet suffer your selues to bee so sensleslie , and miserablie , miscarried . But , how-so-ever I bee , in this purpose , more playne than pleasant vnto you : and that , even there-fore , I could bee content to speake no more of it , who am loath to grieue you in anie thing ; yet , because I promised it to Eriphilus , and hee conceived , that I could not possiblie cleare such ( as hee called it ) a Calumnie , I must essay , to acquyte my selfe , in prooving all-so of your Romanistes , the other Poynt , and Note of their spirituall K●…nred , propounded by mee , of Devilish Dealing : namelie , that they are Murderers , and teach men so , as well as Liars , and , thus , are Satan's vpright Children . Cardinall Baronius , in his Epistle agaynst the Venetians , speaketh thus ; The Ministrie of Peter , ( blessed Father ) is two-folde , To feede , and to kill ; according to that , [ Feede my Sheepe ] and according to that [ Kill , and eate . ] For , when the Pope hath to deale with refractarie , and averse parties , ( as are the Venetians ) then Peter is bidden , Kill , and slay , and packe them vp in his Bellie . Is not this , I pray you , reverentlie , and rightlie vsed Scripture ? The same Baronius , in his Paraenesis to the Venetians , Pag. 9. It resteth , O Father , ( the Pope ) that you draw agaynst Malefactours the Sword of Peter ; whom to this ende , CHRIST appoynted over Kingdomes , and Nations . Their King-killing Doctrine is too well knowne , and too tragicallie , what attempted , what archieved by them . Iohan. Mariana , Iesuit , de Rege , lib. 1. cap. 6. affirmeth , That Subjects , willing to doe so , may depose the King from his Princelie state : and , that from all memorie , it hath beene esteemed a prayse-worthie thing , who-so-ever attempted to oppresse Tyrants . And , Pag. 60. If no meanes bee of obtayning a publicke Convention , then who ( favouring the common Wishes ) shall attempt to kill a King , or Prince , I will not esteeme that hee hath done wrong . For , their advowed Impudencie , in this pernicious Opinion , let anie Man reade the Iesuit's Booke , De Henrici tertii abdicatione , which was put foorth at Lions , Anno , 1591 : in the Praeface where-of , are these wordes ; That seeing this is one , and the same common Cause , of that other Henrie , a wicked Tyrant , al-so , &c. therefore , it is , that since wee haue spoken of the just abdication of the first , wee desire , that wee may appeare so to haue spoken ( de hoc quoque excludendo , immo conterendo & perdendo ) of excluding ; yea , downe-beating , and destroying of this other , al-so . Mariana , de Rege , pag. 59. for King-killing , alleadgeth the Exemple of E●…ud : as if common and ordinarie actions , could bee warranded by extraordinarie , which ought not to bee drawne in exemple . And the same is brought , al-so , in defence of the Iesuits , Tom. 6. memor . lig . pag. 281 : and , together with it , diverse Romane Doctors , are alleadged , al-so , to this same purpose , as Cajetan . Dominicus Soto . Thomas Aquin. Sylvester Fumus . But , that you may yet see portentuous , both Impudencie , and Impietie , Iohannes Mariana , Iesuit , De Rege , lib. 1. cap. 7. pag 65. & 67. hath these words ; Quid interest ferro an vene●…o per●…as ? &c. that is , What mattereth it , whether thou kill with Knyfe , or with Poyson ? That which is done by Poyson , is done with lesse danger , and more hope of impunitie . Vpon my Warrand , thou mayest vse Poyson : but , with this provision , that bee who is killed there-by , bee not compelled , him-selfe to drinke the Poyson , where-by hee may perish : but that it bee outwardlie applyed , by some other , without vsing anie ayde of him , who is killed there-by . Seeing , especiallie , that so great is the strength of Poyson , that eyther the Chayre , or Apparell , stroaked there-with , may haue force to kill . And , in the ende of that same Chapter , pag. 68. hee concludeth , That it is lawfull , by all meanes , to compasse ones death ; so beeing , that neyther wittinglie , nor vnwittinglie , hee bee made his owne Executioner . And , if it may neyther offende Philadelphus , ( for some farre carnall conjunction hee had with him ) nor you , ( Eriphilus ) who accounteth him an holie Martyr , I might adde to the former , a familiar , and late Proofe , of what Spirite those Men are , in that brayne-sicke Traytor , who beeing executed this other yeare , for peartlie practized , and phreneticallie professed Treason : yet , soone after , for-sooth , was canonized , and , by you , ( Eriphilus ) esteemed a Martyre . But it falleth you foule , that you can never finde one to fill vp that Roll , but Men , both accused , and clearlie convinced , of Theft , or Treason . Philadelphus . For anie Interest I had in that Man , I may , warrandablie , say , that , vvhat-so-ever hee bee , of HIS MAIESTIE'S Liedges , vvho eyther thinketh so of him , or speaketh of him , as a Martyre , hee meriteth , most justlie , to bee canonized , in the Catalogue of arrand Traytors ; and , to receiue the Recompence of such . But , nowe , ( Eriphilus ) hath not Eubulus , thinke you , sufficientlie , cleared the Trueth , of that which you called a Calumnie ? And , are these , for-sooth , the abstruse Mysteries , of your Iesuits Divinitie ? And , howe jumplie , are they the Followers of IESVS ; vvho , not onelie , are open , and audacious Encowragers to Murder ; but , all-so , so cunning Informers , of all the diverse Manners , of mischievous working ; and , are so well practized , in all the operatiue Powers , and application of Poyson ; that , they may bee moste apt APOTHECARIES , for Pluto ? And , it is goodlie to see , howe , in the open practise , of monstrous Impietie , yet they would make Asses belieue , that , at least , they kill conscientiouslie . For , they are so squimmish , for-sooth , as , in anie Case , they will not haue a Man made his owne Executioner . And , this is just such an Holinesse , as had the Priestes , and Pharisees ; vvho , whyles they were , with all Falsehood , Crueltie , and bloodie , and vnbrydeled Rage , murdering the LORD IESVS , yet they would neyther pollute their Sanctitie , by entering into the Common HALL , nor receiue the pryce of Blood into their TREASVRIE . Thus , Hypocrites , even in the open Practise , of moste grosse , and detestable sinnes , yet beare the , justlie benummed , worlde in hand ; that , because they strayne Gnattes , they can not , but , in a good Conscience , swallowe Camels . But , vvhat a monstrous excecation , of Men , is this ; that so prodigious Impietie findeth , amongst Professours of CHRISTIANITIE ; not onelie Patrocinie , but , all-so , Admiration ? Where-as , anie Heathen Man , of setled Senses , would skunner , at the verie mention , of such monstrous dealing : vvhere-by , all Bandes of Commerce , amongst Men , vvhich eyther DIVINITIE , HVMANITIE , or NATVRE , by anie kynde of Lawe , haue established ; are , impiouslie , vnhumanlie , and vnnaturallie , broken . When GOD will not bee defended , with a Lie ; neyther , will haue vs to doe anie evill , that good may ensue there-of ; shall a bare pretence of Zeale , and intention of a good ende , make more than Cyclopicke feritie , and devilish Deceit , to become good Religion ? VVhat if those honest-hearted Heathen , whome the Record of Storie , extolleth so much for TRVETH , IVSTICE , TEMPERANCE , FORTITVDE , and others , MORALL VERTVES , ( who yet knewe not the true GOD , nor the sole Way of LYFE ) vvere raysed from the Death , and did see , and heare , what Men , called CHRISTIANS , and acclayming the Title of KNOWLEDGE , and HOLINESSE , from all others , doe not onelie practize , but professe , all-so ; vvould they not bee perswaded , that all the Devils of Hell , had come foorth , vnder Ecclesiasticke Names , and Habites , to destroy the World ? Philomathes . Let mee entreat you , ( good Philadelphus ) to insist no more in this Subject : other-wayes , you will turne Eriphilus Choler , into a burning Ague . Philadelphus . I will , at your request , forbeare it : yet so , as I must tell you this one word ; That , I will rather choose , to bee mine owne Varlot , than eyther to haue the Chayre set vnto mee , or mine Apparell reached mee , by anie Page , vvhich hath passed his Prentiship , and , hath beene initiated , in the Secrets of the Chamber of Meditations . And , for Eriphilus , I will presentlie refresh his Mynde , with one Sonnet more ; vvhere-by to prevent his Ague , or , at least , to giue him a mature Cooling , in the verie beginning of his Fitte . Doctrines of Devils , with their Dealing joyned , Are Signes of Satan's Synagogue most sure . Wedlocke forbidden , Abstinence enjoyned , From what the LORD proclaymeth to bee pure , His Doctrines are : So is it not obscure , Whom GOD designeth , to bee Devilish Doctors . His workes are Lies , and Killing to procure : And , such men are his proper Sonnes , and Proctors . Your works , then , well be wray your Generation : Knyues , Powder , Poyson , and Aequivocation . Philomathes . Your Syrope ( Philadelphus ) is little lesse vnpleasant , than your Potion : so , as Eriphilus hath to provide him-selfe , other-wayes , of Patience . But , leaving this , I will turne mee agayne , to Eubulus , who gaue the Wound , which you , well satyricklie haue rankled . You remember , ( Eubulus ) that you compryzed our Man's whole Discourse , of HAERETICKES , in this mayne Syllogisme : To whom the Notes of HAERETICKES , doe properlie conveane ; and , in whom are found manyfolde Defectes , which can not befall the true Church ; they must , of necessitie , bee baereticall . But , to the Protestant Churches , the Notes of HAERETICKES , doe properlie conveane ; and , in them are found manyfolde Defectes , which can not befall the true Church . There-fore , the Protestant Churches , are haereticall . The Proposition , of this Argument , you admitted . To the first part , of the Assumption , ( as touching the Notes of Haeretickes ) you haue so answered ; that , labouring to cleare your selues , you haue layde over , well sadlie , that Imputation vpon our Church . Nowe , then , all-be-it wee haue , the longer , but the lesse Esperance of prevayling ; yet , seeing this other poynt ( concerning the Defectes found in you , or affirmed of you ) resteth nowe , onelie , of all our Man's Poēsie , to bee spoken of ; I would heare your Aunsweres , all-so , vnto his Interrogatours there-vpon . Eubulus . Of this , ( Philomathes ) I will acquyte my selfe , with small a-doe ; for , that , all-most , all the Defectes objected vnto vs , are , vpon your Poet 's praesumed Opinion , That wee want those Markes , where-of hath beene spoken : So , as , anie sensible Man , in that which wee haue all-readie sayde , shall finde all his subsequent Questions , sufficientlie aunswered . Besides that , else-where , I haue aunswered them , at such length , as my Discourse , heere , may bee the shorter , and you yet , aboundantlie , satisfied ; if not with that which I now say , yet , with easie paynes , to reade mine other TREATISES . Nowe , then , reade foorth , in order , your Man's Questions . Philomathes . I will both gladlie heare , what you shall now say , and will not wearie , al-so , to reade what else-where you haue written . These , now , are the Questions . You say , your Fayth did appeare , For the space of sixe hundreth Yeare : But tell mee , if thou can , When Papistrie first began ? Where were the Servants of the LORD , That none of them durst speake a word , To defend the knowne Trueth ? ************** Did Saynct Peter's Fayth fayle ? Did the Gates of Hell prevayle ? Did the Salt lose its savour ? Was the Bryde out of favour ? Was the Pillar over-throwne , By vvhich all Trueth vvas to bee knowne ? By this thou vvouldst prooue playne , All CHRIST'S Promise to bee vayne . Sea , Heavens , and Earth , shall passe in-deede , But of this Word no jot , vvee reade . Where haue you beene so long a tyme ? To vvhom did your Light shyne ? † Where did your principall Pastor sit ? Who kept your Keyes ? vvho fed your Sheepe ? Show mee some Church , that you haue built . I can shew manie , that you haue spilt . Were all damned eternallie , Who vvere not of your Companie ? How might a Man haue found you out , To haue tryall in matters of doubt ; When no such Companie did appeare , For so manie hundreth Yeare ? Till LUTHER , a lying Frier , On vvhom the Devill ●…ad desire , Brake his Vow , and married a Nun : And then your Haeresie first begun . And favoured , in SAXONIE , By a Duke , that loved Libertie . And in King EDWARD'S tyme , truelie , It first infected our Countrey . For , a thousand yeares , you say , That Papistrie did beare the sway : And during all that space , No Protestant did show his Face . Who kept the holie Scripture then , From the hands of wicked men ? Who had Authoritie , to ordayne , Or make Priests , or Bishops , agayne ? For hee that entereth without order , As a Thiefe , doth kill , and murder . Hee is a Wolfe , and not a Priest , And Enemie to our Saviour CHRIST . And , one thing doth make mee muze , That no Priest you did refuse , Ordayned by the Church of Rome , But hee was excepted soone : If hee would say your Service , Hee should haue a Benefice : Without anie farder Order , And accounted for the Better . How may shee make a lawfull Priest , If shee bee not the Church of CHRIST ? Answere this , if that thou can , And I will bee a Protestan . But , while your Answere you devyse , I counsell all Men , that bee wyse , To holde the Fayth mayntayned heere , The space of a thousand Yeare : Brought to vs English-men , By our Apostle , Sainct Austine : Who from Rome vvas hither sent , When EDWARD vvas King of KENT : Who learn'd his Fayth of Gregorie ●… Which Fayth vvas kept successiuelie , By three-score Bishops , and three , From Saynct Peter's tyme , vvee see : Who learn'd his Fayth of CHRIST IESU , Who is the Sonne of GOD most true . To HIM bee all Honour , and Prayse , Who doeth defende HIS Church al-wayes . Eubulus . You may perceiue ( Philomathes ) the trueth of that which I sayde vnto you ; that all these yourman's questions , are coincident , with the cases of Continuance , & Visibilitie , wherof we haue spoken : except , that , in end , for giving vs a deadly blow , in his conceit , he close all vp , with the question of our Callings . And , to make cleare to you , how your man multiplieth words , in vayne , without knowledge , I reduce all his impertinent pratling , to this mayne Argument : If things , affirmed by you , of your Churches , can not consist with the Promise of CHRIST , made to His Church , and Her certaine condition thereby : and , if you are forced , to acknowledge of the Church of Rome , that which can not bee competent to anie Companie , but to CHRIST'S Church ; then are your Churches Haereticall , and the Church of Rome , is the Church of CHRIST . But , the thinges affirmed by you , of your Churches , can not consist with the Promise of CHRIST , made to His Church , and Her certayne Condition there-by : and that which you grant of the Church of Rome , is onlie competent to CHRIST HIS Church . There-fore , your Churches , are Haereticall , and the Church of Rome , is the Church of CHRIST . Philomathes . Verilie , our Poet , if hee were even heere present , could alleadge no Prevarication on you , in the vpright compryzing of the summe of his Discourse . And , if you shall answere to it , as clearlie , and ingeniouslie , as you haue ingeniouslie propounded it , vndoubtedlie the best of this Game will bee yours . Eubulus . The Proposition of his Argument , is true : but his Assumption , is extreamlie false : where-of hee laboureth , to fortifie the first part , touching the Defects alleadged on our Churches , thus : The Promise of CHRIST , to His Church , is , That Peter's fayth shall never fayle : that , The Gates of Hell shall not prevayle against her : that , The Salt shall not lose its savour : that , The Bryde shall not bee out of favour : that , The Church shall remaine the stable Pillar of Trueth , &c. and , According to this Promise , the certayne Condition of the Church , is , That Shee al-wayes continueth , and is , visible . But , by these things , which you affirme , of your Churches , Peter's Fayth should haue fayled : The Gates of Hell should haue prevayled : the Salt should haue lost its savour : the Spouse should haue beene out of favour : the Pillar should haue beene over-throwne : and , the Church of CHRIST , should not haue continued , and continued visible . There-fore , thinges affirmed by you , can not consist with the promise of CHRIST , made to His Church , and her Condition , accordinglie : and , consequentlie , you are Haeretickes . Thus , having , as hee thinketh , set vs aside , from anie Interest in the Title of CHRIST'S Church : next , vpon a ground , confessed by vs , but miserable mistaken by him , hee buildeth a Conclusion , for the second part of his mayne Assumption , which concerneth the Church of Rome , thus : To giue lawfull Ordination to Pastors , is competent onlie to the Church of CHRIST . But , you , Protestantes , acknowledge , That the Ordination , given by the Church of Rome , was lawfull Ordination . There-fore , the Church of Rome , must bee the Church of CHRIST . Doe you not , now , perceiue ( Philomathes ) whither your Man's meaning tendeth , by all this his great Squadron of Interrogatours : with the multitude where-of , hee would , in a Musicall Moode , over-whelme vs ? Philomathes . I now perceiue it well anough : you haue reduced all , to so cleare and compendious a forme . And , graunting the Major of his mayne Argument , you denyed his Minor. And , first , that part there-of , which , vpon the Defectes , layde agaynst you , hee assumed of your Churches . For Probation where-of , I must confesse , that no-thing is brought , by him , in his second Syllogisme , but the all-readie disputed poyntes , of Continuance , and Visibilitie . Where-of you haue sayde ●…o much , as wee can not , goodlie , requyre anie more of you . So , that , except it please you to aunswere vnto his last , and , appearinglie , insoluble Objection , agaynst you , grounded on your owne Graunt , of lawfull Ordination by the Church of Rome , I thinke , for mee , there resteth no other poynt vndiscussed of all our matter . Eubulus . Of his Objection , of lawfull Calling , by the Church of Rome , and all that hee can possiblie build thereon , I shall , GOD , willing , eyther pay him , or prooue him al-readie payed , more than aboundantlie . And , al-be-it I haue before , al-so , spoken of the other poynts ; yet , for more clearing , whether hee better prooveth , or I deny his mayne Assumption , let vs take a short view of his Interrogatours . Philomathes . Then , saye to them , and wee will heare gladlie . Thus they are . You say , your Fayth did appeare , For the first sixe hundreth yeare : But tell mee , if thou can When Papistrie first began ? Eubulus . Wee affirme , that our Fayth , which is the onlie true Fayth , hath appeared , not sixe hundreth , onlie , but , now , all-most , sixeteene hundreth yeares ; though not in alyke evidence , at all tymes , or to all persones : and , though not al-wayes , perceived , even of them , to whome it appeared . For , as the Smoake of the bottomlesse Pitte , by degrees prevayled ; so , was true Light , the lesse , and of the lesser number , perceived , And , yet , even in the height of that Evill , ( when a Throne was erected to Satan , in the Temple of GOD , and Antichrist obtayned , not onlie the Court of the Temple , but , al-so , all the holie Citie ) there were Candle-stickes , still , in the Temple , and good numbers of Sealed Ones , following the Lambe , on Mount Syon , while all the miscarried Earth , followed the Beast : although none could heare , or learne , their Song , but themselues ; who , in that common Apostasie , were bought from the Earth , to be the true Citizens of Heaven , al-be-it in the Earth , yet not of it . Now , what tyme Poperie did first begin , what Man is hee , that needeth to make anie question , who readeth Paul , affirming plainly , that the Mysterie of Iniquitie , was even then begun to worke : or , who readeth Iohn , avouching that Antichrist was even then in the World ? That the first beginninges , and subtill Insinuation , were not , commonlie , marked , it was the LORD His wyse Dispensation , and Satan's deepe Deceit : for , other-wayes , it had beene no Mysterie . Doeth not the LORD Him-selfe , teach vs , in Parable , That the envyous one , did sowe his Tares , even with the good Seede , in the LORD His owne Fielde ; and , that , so covertlie , and subtillie , whyle the Servauntes were sleeping ; that , all-bee-it mixed with the good Seede , and waxing in the midst there-of ; yet , it is not espyed , vntill , by different Stalke , Flowre , and Eare , it bewray whose Hand did scatter it : so , as the verie Servants , al-be-it , by tyme , they see it growing , and waxing , and discerne it to bee adulterous ; yet , they can not tell howe , by whome , nor what tyme , it was sowne ? And , shall Tares , I pray you , bee counted good Wheat , except the moment , and first Sower there-of , bee showne ? Your Man doteth , and deceiveth , in reasoning , Sophisticallie , from Poperie , in the first Seede , to Poperie begotten : and , even from Poperie begotten , in the first subtill Insinuation , and cunninglie-covered beginninges , to Poperie borne , and brought foorth : and , from Poperie , even brought foorth , but yet still masked , vnder fayre and plausible Pretences , and swedled vp , in the Clouts of GOD His Children ; to Poperie , at length , kything , openlie , Teeth , Hornes , and Clawes : so , bewraying , evidentlie , vvhose Broode it was ; all-bee-it long , and fraudfullie fostered , in the midst of GOD His owne House . Satan was , long , in all Subtiltie , and deepe Deceit , a-bringing out of that Monster , as the last , and greatest Master-stich , of all his Policie , and Power : and , much , and darke tyme , behooved to bee allotted , to the begetting of that great Hercules , of the infernall Iupiter . First , in the Seede : Next , in the Egge : vvhence Satan , long , and sedulouslie , sitting there-on , at length , hatched out a Serpent : which became , by tyme , a fyrie flying Dragon . For , the Beast arose out of the Earth , slowlie , and insensiblie : not as that Tages , repente doctus in ipso nascendi Articulo . You may reade , if you list , ( Philomathes ) a more large Answere , to this same vayne Question , sent to my selfe , by one of your side , in my Discoverie of his Dotage there-in . Philomathes . I will , GOD willing , reade it . But , what say you to this ? VVhere were the Servantes of the LORD , That none of them durst speake a word , To defende the knowne Trueth ? &c. Eubulus . They were even where Satan's Throne was : and , all-bee-it tollerating spirituall Fornication , ( for which the LORD had some-thing agaynst them ) yet , keeping the NAME of GOD , them-selues , and , informing others , in the true knowledge there-of ; they were in the Temple , whyle Antichrist trode downe the Court there-of , and the holie Citie : and , powerfullie , dispensing , there-in , both Light , and Grace , to true Christians ; and , having Vengeance in readinesse , agaynst their Enemies ; they were in the VVildernesse , both fedde , and feeding others . They were on Mount Syon , with the Lambe , both worshipping , purelie , them-selues , and leading others there-in ; though none eyther heard , or learned , their Song , but the sealed Virgines , whyle the Beast miscarried all the Earth , to commit spirituall Fornication . Thus , they were , all-wayes , and , both spake the Trueth , and , for the Trueth . But , the blynde , and stupified Sectatours of the Beast , neyther saw , nor heard them . For , howe soone the Beast of the bottomlesse Pitte perceived them : then was The Patience of the Saynctes : and , then , Blessed were the Dead , which died in the LORD : then lay they vnburied , in the Streetes of that great Citie , which , spirituallie , is called Sodome , and Aegypt : and , then the VVhoore was drunken , with the Blood of Saynctes ; and , the Beast became , whollie , of the Dragon's Colour . Nowe , where , vpon this , That no opposition was made by them , your Man concludeth , That , there-fore , none at all were ; I pray you , ( Philomathes ) what kynde of Logicke doe you account it ? Because , in Spayne , and Italie , no open opposition is made to Poperie ; are there , there-fore , no Protestant , eyther Pastours , or Professours , in those partes ? The future Ages , might , perhaps , bee induced to thinke so ; because that so the Storie of the Tyme may carrie ; no-thing beeing recorded , but what , in common , obtayneth in the Tyme . But , wee , who nowe liue , would laugh him to heading , as an impudent , or senselesse Liar , who would but denye , that , even in Rome , are hundreths , who holde the Pope , to bee Antichrist . And , howe great encowragement so-ever , our too great Lenitie , giveth them of kything ; yet , would they bee contented , that their numbers , amongst vs , were esteemed , but according to their open and advowed opposition ? When the golden Calfe , was set vp , in the Wildernesse , and that , by so common an Apostasie , as that Aaron was carryed away with the violent Streame of that Evill , it might appeare , that none had beene , there , for the LORD , or free of that common Guiltinesse : and , yet thousands did kythe in the convenient tyme of challenge . Were there none true , eyther Prophets , or Professours , in Israel , the yeares of Elias , lurking ? And , yet , who spake publicklie for the Trueth ? Did not even Elias thinke , that all were gone , when yet there were an hundreth Prophets , in one Caue , and seaven thousand true Professours , in one , and the same Kingdome ? Shall Tolleration , speciallie in perilous tymes , conclude approbation , of what is tollerated , in all the Tolleraters there-of ? Doeth not Augustine acknowledge , in his tyme , ( where-in the Mysterie of Iniquitie , was not so farre advanced , but that Trueth still obtayned some place , in common ) that , for regarde of the CHVRCHES peace , they were compelled to tollerate manie thinges , which , other-wayes , they vtterlie mislyked ? Attour , in your Man's Objection , is another ridiculous Fallacie ; by confounding the diverse and distinct tymes , and , accordinglie , the diverse and distinct degrees of growth , of that Apostasie , in the course of tyme : and , not distinguishing , accordinglie , the diverse sortes and degrees of Opponers , and of opposition therevnto . No Age , since the Apostolicke tymes , wanted its owne opposition , and Opponers , according to the degree of Evill , all-though they came not to that last , and highest degree , to which the open discoverie of the Evill , in the toppe of all importable , and vncurable Impietie , did force Men. Loue , is ever loath to cast off , till all hope bee past . And , sober Men , some-tymes , in a laudable judgement ; some-tymes , agayne , in weaknesse , will even choose , often , in a prevayling Iniquitie , rather to lurke , and keepe themselues cleane ; than , with perilous Contestation , eyther to disturbe the CHVRCHES Peace , or object them-selues , to desperate Daungers . Which , not-with-standing , when they perceiue , that ( vvithout playne perill of all Christianitie , and imputation to them-selues , of betraying the Gospell ) Peace can no more bee keeped ; will then , rather contest , with all hazard , than tollerate a clearlie-discovered , and a desperatelie-pernicious Mischiefe . Shall a Thiefe , bee counted no Thiefe , but from the tyme of his open Endytement ? Or , shall the first beginninges , of injurious Vsurpation , on the one part ; and , an vndoubted , and cleare Right , on the other ; be reckoned onlie from the first publick poynts of Litiscontestation ? A Man , disposed to Peace , will long beare , and , patientlie , expect Reparation of Wronges ; and , even comport , with manie injurious Encroachmentes : vpon hope , that Reason , and gentle Admonition , will bring the Partie to doe him measure . VVho , not-with-standing , at last , perceiving his Adversaries waywardnesse , and daylie progresse in wrong doing ; will , then , intende playne Action agaynst him , for his Right . Nowe , shall the vsurping , and injurious Partie , haue , in this , anie reason , where-by eyther to justifie him-selfe , or eschew Reparation of all his by-gone Wronges , and vsurpation ; because they were never , till then , challenged , in that manner , and degree ? You may see more , heere-of , in my TREATISE , of our CALLINGES , and COMMENTARIE on the REVELATION . Philomathes . Well : let vs goe on . Did Saynct Peter's Fayth fayle ? Eubulus . No : but , if it had , what should haue followed there-vpon vnto the Church , more than vpon the fall of Iudas ? What a ridiculous Question is this ? as , if , on the standing , or falling , of anie one Man , or , what-so-ever number of Men , did hang the fall , or stabilitie , of the Church : which is builded , neyther on Man , nor Men ; but , on that immooueable Rocke , which can not fall . Yet , your Bellarmine confesseth , That , though the Pope should fall away from Trueth , yet , the Church should not , there-fore , fayle . Philomathes . You , who are so quicke a Carper of Aequivocations , fall , now , to the same Play , which you reprooue so often in our Poet. For , by Peter's Fayth , hee doeth not meane that Spirituall Vertue , where-with Peter was endewed , there-by apprehending CHRIST to Salvation , ( as you would , perhaps , descrybe it : ) but that Doctrine of Fayth , which Peter professed , and taught . Eubulus . Then , ( Philomathes ) the playing with Aequivocations , shal be still your Poet's part : for the Lord prayed , for the stabilitie of Peter's particular fayth , where-of Satan sought to sift him ; & , which , remayning steadfast , was his Victorie , in that his Temptation , as I haue before signified . And if your Man , will haue it permitted vnto him , by Poeticall Licence , agaynst the LORD'S mynde , to wrest Scripture , and to intitle , thus , the Doctrine of Fayth : yet , why is it called Peter's faith , more than am 's , or Iohn's ? And , why would not your Poet rather ( according to Scripture speach ) cal it the Faith of our LORD IESVS CHRIST ? But , in what-so-ever sense , giving him , that the Fall , or Standing of the Church , had depended , whollie , on the fayling , or stabilitie , of Peter's Fayth ; could that Fayth , bee no other-wayes preserved , but in the Church of Rome ? And , shall the fall of Rome , conclude , that Peter's Fayth , and , consequentlie , CHRIST'S Church , is fallen ? To make this Conclusion infallible ; your Man must bring a better Argument , than a vayne vaunt , of a bare personall Succession : while , in the tyme , they are fallen away from Peter's Fayth , to the fayth of Simon Magus . Philomathes . Did the Gates of Hell prevayle ? Eubulus . No : but they did so farre assayle , and with such successe ( in GOD His just judgement , and wyse permisssion ) as Satan obtayned a Throne , even in the Temple of GOD. Philomathes . Did the Salt lose its Savour ? Eubulus . It did so farre lose its Savour , in common ; and , such as should haue beene the Salt of the Earth , became so vnsavourie , that they could serue for nothing , but to bee cast out , and trodden vnder foot : ( Cast out the Court , which is with-out the Temple , and mete it not , &c. ) yet ever still the LORD had Ministers , so seasoned , with the Spirit of Light , and Grace , as they were , al-wayes , Candle-stickes , and Oliues , to the Temple : al-be-it , long , few , and labouring in manie Teares ; and , at length , cruellie , murdered , by that vnsavourie , and vnsanctified Fellowship . Philomathes . Was the Bryde out of favour ? Eubulus . Never : al-be-it , often-tymes , the Brydegrome hath had some-what agaynst her : while , dwelling where Satan's Throne was , and keeping even there , the Name of Her LORD ; yet , in weaknesse , shee tollerated spirituall Fornication . Shee was never out of favour : yet shee hath beene often afflicted , and tossed with tempest , having no 〈◊〉 : but , beaten , even of the Watch-men : and glad to lurke , and to bee fed in the Wildernesse : while the masked Whoore , with subtill deceit , made all the Earth to drinke the Cup of her Abhominations . Philomathes . VVas the Pillar over-throwne ? Eubulus . No : but stood still stable , vpon Mount SYON , with the Lambe ; whyle all the Earth was , in GOD HIS justice , miscarried , after the Beast ; receiving his Name , Number , or Character . And , so , ( Philomathes ) CHRIST'S Promise prooveth true and playne , And your Man's Ballad is but vayne . Philomathes . VVhere haue you beene so long a tyme ? Eubulus . Even where Satan's Throne was : and , even there , keeping the Name of IESVS , agaynst the terrour of Blood-shed . Philomathes . To vvhom did your Light shyne ? Eubulus . To the hundreth , fourtie , and foure thousand sealed Virgines , Followers of the Lambe , by the Light shyning before them , and seene of them , ( whyle all the Earth , depryved of Eyes , to see , wondered , blyndlinges , after the Beast : ) vvho , there-fore , rested not in the common pollution of the holie Citie , and Court of the Temple : but , stepped inwardes , to the Temple , where were , all-wayes , Candle-stickes , and Oliues . Philomathes . Where did your principall Pastor sit ? Eubulus . At the Right Hand of the FATHER , yet filling all . For , in anie other , this Title were a sacrilegious Vsurpation of CHRIST His Honour . Philomathes . Who kept your Keyes ? who fed your Sheepe ? Eubulus . Even those , who ( when all , in common , had lost the Key of Knowledge ; and , neyther entered them-selues , nor suffered others , to enter into the Kingdome of Heaven ) vvere still the true Lightes , and Oliues , of the Temple : and , vvho , at length , by the true Key , haue so opened vp , and discovered Antichrist his Deceit , vnto the long-blynded Worlde , as , the Beast is going , sensiblie , to Destruction ; though the characterized Companie , should never so much gnaw their Tongues , for Sorrow . If the Scrybes , and Pharisees , to whom CHRIST objected , the losse of the Key of Knowledge , and , shutting of the Kingdome of Heaven , had layde over , agaynst Him , this your Man's Objection ; and argued , there-vpon , the fayling of GOD His Church ; and , consequentlie , of His manie and great Promises : vvould Hee nor , soone , and easilie , haue aunswered , That , how-so-ever they had so fallen away , in common ; yet GOD still had true , both Scrybes , and Israelites , even in the Bowels of that , commonlie , corrupted Bodie ? Philomathes . Show some Church that you haue built , &c. Eubulus . A great manie , that you haue spilt . To your Man , ( Philomathes ) Destroying is Building , and Building is Destroying . Vpon , and by that Doctrine , where-vpon wee build , and which wee teach , hath the true Church beene builded , and instructed all-wayes : as , by the right Rule of Examination , wee haue , a thousand tymes , evinced : and , hee , who gathereth not with vs , but scattereth . Philomathes . Were all damned eternallie , Who were not of your Companie ? Eriphilus . Seeing , that without the Church of CHRIST , there can bee no Salvation : and , that you doe take to your selues , the Title of the CHVRCH , and denye the same vnto the Church of Rome : I would gladlie heare , ( Eubulus ) what you can aunswere , to this Question : and , how you can , so vnwynde your selfe there-of , as not to fall , in some one of these Absurdities : namelie , That eyther all our Fathers , manie hundreth yeares a-goe , were damned eternallie ; and , that , nowe , all-so , all Men , professing Poperie , doe perish : or , you must acknowledge , the Church of Rome , to haue beene , and , yet , still to bee , the Church of CHRIST : in which case , your Churches must bee haereticall . Eubulus . I will aunswere directlie , and , even , categoricallie , to your Man's Question : and , even , so , clearlie , free our selues , of all your Absurdities . But , I must , first , protest , for your patience , ( Eriphilus ) that you will not start at my first wordes ; which , may , perhaps , appeare strange , vnto you : vntill I haue cleared them ; and , there-with , haue vnfolded the Deceit of your Man's Question . I aunswere , then , and affirme , playnlie , That all were damned eternallie , who were not of our Companie . For , there is but one Way , one Veritie , and one Lyfe . And , yet , it shall neyther followe , heere-vpon , that , all , our Fathers , in Ages past , were damned : or , that , all , presentlie called Papistes , and professing so , doe perish . For , wee are not so praesumptuouslie audacious Determiners ; or , so vncharitable judgers of other Men , as your Men are of vs ; secluding , absolutelie , all who die in our Communion , from Everlasting Lyfe . But , it is well , that , to them , all judgement is not committed . Neyther , yet , heere-vpon , shall eyther the Church of Rome , bee made the Church of CHRIST ; or , our Churches , to bee haereticall Companies . Eriphilus . I will take to mee patience , according to your Protestation , to attende the clearing of these so evill-consisting Assertions : all-bee-it , I feare , that my patience , in this poynt , shall neyther beget mee EXPERIENCE , nor HOPE . Eubulus . Who hardlie conceiue HOPE , may , haplie , fall to ●…e ashamed : but , the aequivocation of this word [ COMPANY ] where-in lyeth your Man's Cavl●…lation ; and , according vhere-vnto , you are also misc●…led in the word [ CHVRCH ] ●…eeing cleared : that , where-of you despare , to finde the Experience , or , con●…ine the Hope , shall bee manifest , and certayne , to anie , who will perceiue , and bee perswaded . First , then , I say , That all Christian Churches , are one Church ; and , all Christian Companies , are one Companie : vnited , at least , in one common Profession , of the NAME of CHRIST , and in one Baptisme , beeing all vnder one , and the same generall Ensigne : and , so , within one and the same Catholicke Church , ( as the same is absolutelie , all-be-it not most properlie , taken : ) but , not all , truelie , and properlie , of it . For , within the Catholicke CHVRCH , are CHRIST , and Antichrist ; PROTESTANTS , and Papists ; Orthodox ; and haereticall Christians . Now , agayne , in this one , and generall Church , and Companie , there bee manie diverse Companies , ( as in a great Armie , are severall and distinct Bandes , discerned by their proper , and particular Colours , and Cognizanses ) according as they are divyded , each from other : and , that , eyther vnnecessarilie , by prydefull , and vncharitable Renting , of turbulent Men : or , necessarilie , for keeping the cleane , and health some partes of the Bodie , from the dangerous Contagion of affected parts , in that same common Bodie . In a diseased naturall Bodie , ( Eriphilus ) three distinct Considerations , offer them-selues to bee observed : First , the Bodie in it selfe . Secondlie , the Evill , or Disease in the Bodie . And , thirdlie , the Bodie affected with the Evill , or Disease . The health some Bodie , or considered in its owne naturall state , is one thing . The Bodie affected , or diseased , is ( in that consideration ) another . And , yet , the Disease is the third . The Evill , or Disease , all-bee-it it bee in the Bodie , yet is it not of the Bodie : but , the affected , or diseased part , is of the Bodie : not , in that it is affected , or diseased ; but , in that it communicateth , yet ( all-bee-it weaklie ) with the Lyfe , Sense , and Motion of the cōmon Bodie . Agayne , vvee must put a difference , betwixt partes diseased , which , all-bee-it heavilie affected , and having partes readie to die , yet are not past Physicke , but may bee cured , and quickened , by the Purgation of the Worde , and Spirit ; and , such as are quyte dead , in the Evill , and are incurable , as now , no more part-taking of the common Lyfe , and Sense of the Bodie : as in an Hydropicke Bodie , some partes will bee free , by liuelie Vigour repelling the vicious Humour ; some , not all-to-gether free , but yet lesse affected : some , much affected , and readie to die ; but , yet , in some measure , communicating with the common Lyfe , Sense , and Motion of the Bodie : some , lastlie , in which the vicious Humour hath quyte drowned , out of all Sense , and Motion . Nowe , to cleare this , by Accommodation : I say , That the BODIE , is the CATHOLICKE CHVRCH , in which are all sorts of Christians : the Evill in this Bodie , but not of it , is Haeresie , Antichristi anisme , or Papalitie . Now , as a much different , and distinct consideration , was put betwixt the Evill , considered in it selfe , and the partes of the Bodie , affected there-with : and , agayne , amongst affected parts , a great difference betwixt those , who yet retayne lyfe , and Motion , and are cureable ; and others , who are dead , or consumed by the Disease : So , ( Eriphilus ) you must not confound PAPISTES , and PAPALITIE ; ANABAPTISTES , and ANABAPTISME ; BROWNISTES , and BROWNISME . GOD forbid , that wee judge so hardlie , as , because PAPALITIE , ANABAPTISME , BROWNISME , &c. are damnable , that , there-fore , all who are called , or professe them-selues PAPISTES , ANABAPTISTES , BROWNISTES , are damned . Because , all-bee-it affected , in some degrees , and even dangerouselie sicke , of those Evils , yet they may haue the lyfe of the common Bodie ; part-taking , thus , with the common Head , and bee curable , by the Purgation of GOD. How manie PAPISTES , ANABAPTISTES , BROWNISTES , are there , who , not knowing the deepnesse of Satan's deceit , ( where-with some of their Seducers , and manie al-so of their Companies , are infected deadlie , and diverted from all true lyfe ) are , in simplicitie of Heart , miscarried , with glistering and plausible pretences , of the Church of Zeale , of Puritie , singular Holynesse , and such lyke ; having yet , and , all-bee-it some-what affected , holding the lyfe of GOD , and true Foundation ? And , so , in distinct considerations , are of one , and the same Companie , with all good Christians , and true Professours : and , yet , are not of one , and the same Companie . Because , al-bee-it one , in the common Bodie , and some measure of the common Lyfe , yet separated each from other : for keeping the cleane partes free , not from the others partes , but from the Evill , where-with they are affected ; till GOD , by the Purgation of His Word , and Spirit cure them . When wee dispute agaynst the Church of Rome , and deny her the Name , or Title of CHRIST's Church ; wee meane the Papalitie , not all Papistes ; Antichristianisme , not all , who , in simplicitie of Heart , are miscarried after it , ( which no more justlie may be excluded , from the account of Christians , than those two hundreth Men , accounted Traytors , who went with Absolom , from Hierusalem ) those who haue received the Character of the Beast , ( agaynst whom , onlie , in all the Revelation , is wrath , ever denounced ) not all such , as haue received , but his Name , or his Number : as , handling this same Question , in my COMMENTARIE on that Booke , I haue , at more length , cleared . And , thus I hope , that , if you will , you may see , how it standeth true , that all were damned eternallie , who were not of our Companie : and ; yet , not all who were , or are , called Papistes , are damned . Neyther maketh this the Church of Rome , to bee the Church of CHRIST : because such Papistes , as are saved , are not saved by the destroying , and consuming Gangrene , where-with they are affected , and which fighteth agaynst the lyfe of GOD : but by the remnant of the lyfe of the Bodie , so farre , as yet , prevayling in them , that the evill hath not gotten force , to suffocate , or extinguish it . In which respect , they were , and are , of our Companie : as , in some measure , joyned to , and holding still , the same Head : al-be-it each from other separated , eyther by an vnnecessarie wound , of turbulent Men , or , by a needefull disjunction : and ( al-be-it not all in a-lyke measure of strength , and health ) enjoying the Common Lyfe . For it is not divers Nominations , whether foolishlie taken , or , at apperite imposed , that disjoyne the , so diverslie named ; eyther from CHRIST , or from the Communion of His Bodie , and Lyfe . It is a grosse Sophistication , in your Men , what is true of the Catholicke Church , to conclude , that , properlie , of anie one part thereof : but , it is both grosse and impudent , to conclude the Properties , and Priviledges , of the Bodie , of the inherent and consuming Gangrene in the Bodie , but not of it . Eriphilus . By this your Discourse , ( Eubulus ) you make it an indifferent thing , what eyther Companie , or Religion a Man bee of . And , if one may attayne Salvation , being Papist , Protestant , Anabaptist , Brownist , or what you will , so hee professe CHRIST ; to what ende make you so great a stirre ? And , why goe you about , by all meanes , to haue vs converted vnto you ? Doe you not see , that , whyle you would fayne appeare , to haue Charitie , you over-throw all Pietie ? Eubulus . Because , ( Eriphilus ) in Cities , and Houses , infected with Plague , or Leprosie , Men may liue , as who eyther may escape the Contagion , or bee cleansed , or coole out of it : is there , there-fore , no regarde to bee had , what Citie , or House , a Man come into ? Or , is all care , to keepe the Cleane , from the Foule , superfluous ? Or , is there no care to bee had , of curing the Diseased , and cleansing away the Contagion ? In such Companies , some , possiblie , may liue , and escape the Evill : but , the abode , is extreame dangerous , and Death more readie , than Lyfe . VVithout the CATHOLICKE CHVRCH , it is moste true , that there can bee no Salvation , But , it were high praesumption , for the most pure worshipping Companie , in all that common Bodie , to confine , absolutelie , all Salvation , within their particular Societie : how-so-ever , Salvation , there , must bee moste assured , and lesse danger of Damnation . So , as , ( Eriphilus ) in this your Objection , is little , eyther Pietie , or Charitie , or common Sense . Philomathes . Whether the Disease of the Bodie , bee with vs , or with you : vvhether it bee Papalitie , or Lutheranisme ; I will not , now , more dispute , much lesse , determine . But , verilie , ( Eubulus ) I can not , but much allow your Discourse , which is no lesse solide , and true , than it is quicke , and subtile . And I commend , much more , your charitable judgement in this case , than our Men's hard determinations of you . And , you haue , exceeding well cleared , that this charitable Opinion , can , nor should , diminish nothing , of that Care , which lyeth on all Men , to search , and embrace Trueth . But , let vs come to the rest of our Interrogatours . How might a Man haue found you out , To haue tryall in matters of doubt ; When no such Companie did appeare , For so manie hundreth Yeare ? Eubulus . To this Question , I haue , al-readie , answered , more than once : and , it is the same , which , more than thrise , your Man hath not beene ashamed to demaund . For , from that Question , [ where were the servants of the LORD ; that none of them durst speake a word ▪ ] what haue all his Interrogatours beene , but a pievish repetition of one , and the same thing , in substance ? Anie truelie-lightened , and humblie , and sincerelie seeking , might al-wayes haue found vs out , vnder the common Ensigne . And , if , perhaps , Errour had so farre prevayled , in common , as hee could finde , or heare , nothing , in all the holie Citie , and Court of the Temple , but the Dragon's mouth ; yet Candle-stickes , and Oliues , were never wanting in the Temple . And , even when all the Earth , committed Fornication , following the Beast , yet Virgines would haue found , on Mount Syon a Song , which chaste Hearts might heare , and learne . To your Man's Rhetoricke , ( where-by , heere , in a Poëticall licence , hee looseth his Tongue so liberallie , vpon , LVTHER ) I disdayne to answere : but , referre him to the Fish-Market , where-of his Aeloquence most smelleth . I come to examine his Logicke . Because before LVTHER , and such others , as were in the same Age , and cause , with him : none did contest , so openlie , or in so high a degree , agaynst Antichrist ; doeth it follow , there-vpon , that none , at all , were before him ? VVhy , then , were IOHN HVSSE , and HIEROME of PRAGVE , an hundreth yeares , ere then , cruellie , and barbarouslie , burnt ; agaynst publicke Fayth , and assurance , given them ? VVhy were all the Bo●…emian Churches , so sore vexed ? Because the two Witnesses , Revel . xi . after the Spirit of Lyfe , had entered in them , stoode more vigorouslie , and advowedlie , than before : and , because , by Divine Warrand , at that poynt of tyme , they were first bidden , Come vp hither ; their Enemies saw them , and were afrayde . And , so , then , first , they were , publicklie , separated , from Antichrist his Contagion ; and his Kingdome beginneth to take an open fall , ( where-by the Holie Ghost , paynteth out , playnlie , the tyme , and dealing , of LVTHER , and his Fellowes , in their State , Course , and Condition : ) vvill it conclude , there-fore , that those Witnesses , were not till then ? or , that they did not contest agaynst Evils , before that tyme , all-be-it not in that degree , eyther of Strength , or Successe ? Had not the Beast , ere then , murdered them , even with applause of the Worlde ? Yea , and before anie advowed Contestation with him , or Violence from him , were they not long prophecying , in the Temple ; all-bee-it lurking , and in Sacke-cloath ? Because , in KING EDWARD'S dayes , the abolishing of Poperie , and reparation of true Worship , were , first , by publicke Lawes , established ; vvill anie Logicke conclude , heerevpon , That no Protestantes were , before that ? VVhere-fore , then , were so manie martyred , before the dayes of KING EDWARD ? VVhat did your Men meane , by the barbarous raysing of IOHN WICKLEFE , and his Disciples Bones , some Ages before that ? The Name of PROTESTANTS , ( your Man would say ) was never heard of , before LVTHER . But , I pray you , ( Philomathes ) were it good Logicke , to conclude , That never a Christian was in the Worlde , before a Church was raysed in Antiochia ; because , till then , that name was not heard of ? Will your Poet admit , that where Poperie is not , by lawes , established , there no Papistes are at all ? Poperie , in-deede , did beare sway , for the space of a thousand yeares ; for , so long tyme , the holie Ghost putteth betwixt the Dragon's imprisonment , at which poynt of tyme , Antichrist had his first open degrees of vsurpation , to his loosing agayne : at which poynt , that Mischiefe was come to the toppe of all sacrilegious Impietie . But , it did not beare , all that tyme , a-lyke sway ; neyther , at anie tyme , vniversallie , with everie one , how-soever it did commonlie , with all : but had much different , and slowlie , and slielie comming-on , degrees , which your Poet confoundeth , most vnskilfullie : and , there-vpon , no lesse chyldishlie , in different tymes , and cases , yet requyreth one , and the same Manner ; and , one , and the same Measure of Contestation . Which , in GOD'S wyse Providence , was reserved to the challenging of the Beast , in the height of his impietie , for working of his fall . Hee was , first , a fraudulent spotted Pard ; but , by tyme , became of the Dragon's Colour . Hee , first , had on his head , the name of Blasphemie ; but , by tyme , all his bodie was full of the names of Blasphemie . Hee , first , craftilie , layde stumbling Blockes , as Balaam ; but , by tyme , the Whoore ; horne vp by him , lyke furious and bloodie Iezabel , did , openlie , over-throw all true Worship , erect Baal , and drinke the blood of Sayncts . Finallie , ( Philomathes ) this your Mens Question , ( where-by they so much stupifie the Simple ) Where was the Church , so manie hundreth yeares , & c ? is , even , just , such a Question , as , if one , who had lyen long diseased , convalescing , at length , should be asked , by one , who had never seene him , walking in perfect health ; Where were you , before this tyme ? To which foolish Demaund , as hee might , verie well , answere , That hee , both had beene , before , and , were the same selfe Man , which the Demaunder had seene before : al-though not in the same state , and condition . So , wee affirme , That the CHVRCH , is still , the same CHVRCH , vvhich was , all those hundrethes of yeares , where-in they woulde appeare , to make Her a-missing : but , that Shee was long sicke , by a long , slowlie , and , at first , insensiblie comming-on , Disease : vvhich , at length , had become extreame daungerous , and deadlie ; but that , by the Cure of Her LORDE , Shee hath convalesced of it . And , it were an extreamlie ridiculous Clayme , If , in a Bodie , vvhich had beene over-gone , with a great Disease ; and , yet , by the power of the Noble partes , retayning Integritie , had so farre recovered , that even the Dregges , and force of the Sicknesse , were fallen into the Legges , and Feete : If , there-fore , ( I saye ) the swollen Legges , and Feete , shoulde denye the rest of the Bodie , and take all Priviledge there-of , to them-selues ; because , they , for-sooth , kept still the Dregges of a long Disease . As the CHVRCH , at first , even in the Apostolicke tymes , and , some whyle after , retayning PVRITIE , and Spirituall Health , was the CHVRCH : So , afterwardes , contracting Sicknesse , in all the growing Degrees thereof ; yet was still the same CHVRCH ; all-bee-it ▪ not in the same good condition , of Health , and integritie , of all her Members : and , nowe , agayne , by the Purgation of of the WORD , and SPIRIT , convalescing , is yet , still the same CHVRCH ; all-bee-it in a greater Degree of Health , than before . And , still the CHVRCH lived the same Lyfe of GOD , all-though not , all-wayes , in a-lyke measure , and force . And , the Evill , or Disease , was still one , and the same , wasting the Lyfe of the CHVRCH ; all-be-it , not , at all tymes , in a-lyke force , or seene working ; neyther , yet , ever , over-going , vniversallie , everie Member : howeso-ever , it , in common , over-went , and affected , all . For , it never , vtterlie , extinguished the Lyfe of GOD , in the CHVRCH . If your Doctours would ; or , if your seduced ones , could , vnderstand this ; all your Mens vayne Objections , of the Church , should goe in Smoake . But , of this matter , I haue written so largelie , in my Defence of our Callinges , and , Discoverie of the Adversarie's Dotage ; as , I wearie , heere , to multiplie so manie words vnto you . And , this , which I haue , now , more than once sayd , sufficientlie answereth your Man's next Question . Philomathes . The next Question , is : Who kept the holie Scriptures then , From the hands of wicked men ? Eubulus . In this Interrogatour , I can not tell , whether hee showeth him-selfe , more ignorant , or impudent : for , first , it is asked , as if nothing had beene in the Bodie , but the Sore . If , besydes the consuming Gangrene , there was ever a Bodie , where-in it was , and , though affected therewith , in common ; yet , having Members , some lightlie affected , some whollie free of that Evill ; how shamelesse is your Man , in this his question ? Next , what if the keeping of Scripture , had beene even by the contagious Companie ? Is this eyther impossible , or a new thing , to the LORD ? And , hath it not fore-going Examples , of the lyke marvelous dispensation , to the high commendation , of His Wisdome , and Providence ; but , where-in the Keepers haue nothing to glorie of ? Did not the Iewes , who neyther pleased GOD , & were Enemies to all Men ; who crucified the LORD of Glorie , and rejected Salvation ; and , on whom the wrath of GOD was come , to the out-most ; yet , by His wyse disponing Providence , keepe , so carefullie , the Canon of holie Scripture ; as , there-fore , they obtayne the name of ( Christianorum Librarii ) The Libraries of Christians ? Made not GOD , the holie Vessels of the Temple , to bee , carefullie , kept , even in Babylon , till the tyme of Restitution ? And , what wonder , then , if , in mysticall Babylon , the Vessels , and Instruments , of the true Sanctuarie , were long , both kept , and captived ? And , may not the Conformitie of Case , so jumplie aunswering , make vs , to advert , in a deepe Heavenlie Wisedome ; howe those former thinges , were , also , in GOD HIS Purpose , Stampe●… of thinges to come ? Was not the Arke of GOD , kept , carefullie , amongst the Philistimes ? Of what Moode hath your Man beene , ( Philomathes ) when hee mooved , so ridiculous a Question ? Philadelphus . Why should you so much marvell heereat , Eubulus ? You did tell vs , before , That their Poët , in this his Armie of Interrogatoures , did more trust in the M●…ltitude of all , than in the particular Strength of anie one . And , in such common Convocations , it is no wonder , though manie bee founde , not well appoynted , in their Geare . And , nowe , verilie , I count it straunge , that Men , professing great thinges , yet should not onelie , bewray a shamefull Want , both of Light , and Sense , in laying , for the onelie Rules of Examining , and discerning GOD HIS Trueth ; What , or vvhere , or vvhat tyme , or by what Men , ought hath beene mayntayned , and , moste commonlie , holden : But , even not obscurelie taxe the ALL-MIGHTIE , as leaving His Church , so weaklie warranded , of the Way of Trueth . Not when , nor where ; not who , nor what a number , Moste carried Vogue , is moste to bee inquyred . Satan ( seducing ) with the Spirit of Slumber , Soone , wydelie , Starres , and multitudes inspyred , GOD gaue vp Men , to what their Hearts desyred . Thus Satan's Throne was set , ev'n in the Temple . Trye Trueth , for Errour earlie was ing yred ; Wee liue by Lawes , and not by loose Exemple . In darkest tymes , some true light aye remayned , Though secretlie , and , but of some , retayned . Philomathes . Wee are , nowe , come to our last poynt , and , as wee account , the moste choyse Shaft , in all our Quyver . Our Man's last part , of his Discourse , vpon this poynt of HAERETICKES , you reduced , ( Eubulus ) vnto this Syllogisme : If thinges , affirmed by you , of your Churches , can not consist with the Promise of CHRIST , made to His CHVRCH , and her certayne Condition there-by : and , if you are forced , to acknowledge , of the Church of Rome , that which is competent , onlie , to CHRIST His Church : then are your Churches Haereticall ; and , the Church of Rome , is the Church of CHRIST . But , the first is true . There-fore , the second , all-so . Eubulus . That was , in-deede , the Syllogisme , where-in I compryzed this last part of your Man 's poeticall Discourse , vpon HAERETICKES . Philomathes . There-of , graunting the Proposition , you denyed the Assumption ; and , haue , accordinglie , done your best , to show it false , in this part , that anie thing is affirmed by you , of your Churches , where-with the Promise of CHRIST , can not consist . The other part of the Assumption , seemeth , yet , to stand strong : namelie , that you are forced , to confesse , that of the Church of Rome , which can not bee competent , but to the Church of CHRIST : and , there-fore , that the Conclusion , at least , for that part , is true : namelie , That The Church of ROME , is the Church of CHRIST . This poynt , confessed , by you , of Rome ; and , which can bee competent , to none other Companie , but to CHRIST His Church , is the lawfull Ordination of Pastours ; as you , your selfe , did , before , verie formallie , take vp , in this Syllogisme : To giue lawfull Ordination , to Pastours , is competent , onlie , to the Church of CHRIST . But , Protestants acknowledge , That Ordination , given by the Church of Rome , was lawfull Ordination . There-fore , the Church of Rome , was the Church of CHRIST . And , consequentlie , Protestantes are Haeretickes , who haue forsaken her communion . Eubulus . If I haue well , and clearlie , over-throwne the first parte of his Assumption , as you confesse , ( Philomathes ) that I haue done my best , to that effect : consider , vvith your selfe , vvhat Feete , the other parte there-of , can possiblie finde , for to stand vpon . But , to try this : You acknowledged ▪ That I prooved no Praevaricatour , in taking vp the summe of your Man his Argument : but , that , vprightlie , I haue brought it foorth , in all the strength his wordes can giue it . Philomathes . I acknowledge it , in-deede ; and , approoue your Ingenuitie , in such poyntes . Eubulus . Then , will I , as clearlie , vnfolde to you , the manyfolde Deceit there-of . For , first , his whole Argument , is a beguiling Sophisme ; à communi indiviso , as the Schooles speake ; to bee a separate parte in the Communitie . And , to cleare this , I will , orderlie , goe thorowe the partes of his Syllogisme . You haue to advert , the deceit of his Proposition : For , that lawfull Ordination of Pastoures , is competent , to no Companie , or Bodie , but to the Church of CHRIST ; it is moste certayne . For , the Ordayners of Pastoures , must , of necessitie , haue outward lawfull Place , and power , in the visible CHVRCH : in which , except they , both were , 〈◊〉 did , all-so , obtayne , Place , and Power there-in , they ●…uld bee no lawfull Ordayners at all . Nowe , because that Bodie , in common , in which all lawfull Ordayners are , and must bee , is , vndoubtedlie , the Church of CHRIST : there-vpon , to insinuate , that all , or moste parte , of Ordayners , in this Bodie , are of it : and , though lawfull Pastoures , yet , eyther true Pastoures , or Christians , it is a Sophisticall Deceit , à communi indiviso , as I haue sayde . And , vpon your Man's Proposition , thus , rightlie vnderstood , and , as it can onlie bee admitted , to bee true ; when you haue assumed , that , Ordination , given by the Church of Rome , was lawfull Ordination : yet , shall you never bee able to conclude more , heere-vpon , than , That the Church of Rome , is in the CHVRCH , and common Bodie . Where-by it was , ( before visible Separation vvas made , from that Contagion , in , but not of the Bodie , by divine Commandement , to the VVitnesses , to Come vp , hither ) that Ordination given by the Church of ROME , was lawfull Ordination . And , that , which , a little before , I aunswered to your Man's Question , ( Were all damned , aeternallie , Who were not of your Companie ? ) may cleare to you the infolded Fallacie of this your Man's Proposition also . For , vvithin the CATHOLICKE CHVRCH , are CHRIST , and Antichrist ; TRVETH , and Lies ; WHEAT , and Chaffe ; PASTOVRS , and Wolues ; the true TEMPLE , and the Abhomination of Desolation , standing , all-so , ( in sanctis Ecclesiae loc●… ) in the holie places of the Church ; the Bodie , and the consuming Gangrene . Nowe , vpon that , which is proper , and competent , to the whole Bodie ; and , there-fore , rightlie propounded of the Bodie , in common : and , which , all-so , is rightlie assumed , not onlie of partes of the Bodie , ( because , of that Bodie : ) but , even , of the Apost●…me , or Gangrene , ( because , in the Bodie , ) to conclude , That the Gangrene were in the Bodie , it will holde : but , to conclude , there-of , That i●… is of the Bodie , it will not : much lesse , That it is the onelie , and selfe Bodie . Shall the Sore , in the Bodie , appropriate , there-fore , to it selfe ; or , glorie of the naturall , and liuelie Actions of the Bodie , because it is in the Bodie ; yea , and hath even over-gone the Bodie , in common ? A man hath the Goare , in his Legge : which Legge , all-bee-it , in an hudge degree , festered ; yet , walketh , and mooveth , through the remnant of living , and mooving power , which it yet retayneth . Nowe , shall the Goare , heere , glorie , that , by it , the Legge walketh , and mooveth ; vvhere-as , it is , by it , that the Legge creapeleth , and halteth ? Lawfull Ordination , is a good , yea , and proper Action , of the Church of CHRIST : not of the Goare , or for the Goare , which is in the Church , and stayneth it : but , through the Lyfe , and Power of the Head , yet remayning in the Bodie , al-be-it affected , and having divers Members , even corrupted , with the Sore . Papalitie , is the Goare in the Church , but not of it : of which , to conclude , the proper Actions of the Church , because it hath place there-in ; and there-vpon , farther , to conclude , of it , the Title of the Church , and Bodie , whose , properlie , the Actions are ; it is but a fraudulent Illuding . Neyther , because lawfull Ordination , is a proper Action of the Church of CHRIST , will it , there-fore follow , That who ever giue lawfull Ordination , are of the Church , how-so-ever they must bee in it . For , as I haue , else-where , evinced , clearlie , lawfull Ordination , may bee taken from a Wolfe , and Thiefe , who , as yet , still retayneth outward Place , and Power of ordayning . Thus , then , ( Philomathe●… ) if your Man's Proposition , bee vnderstood so , as , that , where ever lawfull Ordination of Pastours were , that Bodie , ( considered whollie ) behooved to bee the Church of CHRIST , I yeeld it to be●… true : but , if hee , fraudfullie , would insinuate , That all with-in that Bodie , who gaue Ordination , were the Church , or of the Church of CHRIST , then is his Proposition deceitfullie false ; and hee concludeth nothing . Now , let vs see his Assumption . ( But , the Protestants acknowledge , That Ordination , given by the Church of Rome , was Lawfull Ordination ) This Assumption , as it may bee vnderstood , in an●…e of two diverse Senses ; so , I must , accordinglie , answere it . For , first : if by the name of the Church of Rome , bee vnderstood , the common Bodie of the visible Church , al-be-it , at that tyme , affected , so farre , even in common , with that Antichristian Sore , as by Fraude , and tyrannicall Vsurpation , the Name or Number of the Beast , sitting there-in , were imposed : al-be-it numbers , there-in , never received his character ; I grant his assumption 〈◊〉 bee true : but , where-on , hee shall conclude nothing , eyther agaynst vs : or for the Church of Rome , as wee oppugne her . For , wee never pleaded agaynst the Bodie ; neyther haue wee ever separated our selues from the Bodie , as your Men would fayne bynde vpon vs : but , wee pleade agaynst Papalitie , in the Bodie ; and , haue separated our selues , from the Sore , and such deadlie contagious parts , as are infectiue , and incurable : offering , still , the purging Medicine of GOD HIS Word , for the cure , and Health , of all affected Members , who will admit Physicke ; and , for destroying of the annoying , and eating Evill : praying GOD , heartilie , for the perfect convalescing of the whole Bodie . And , the Sore , is still more than ridiculous to oppone , for defence of it selfe , the actions , or properties , of the Bodie , where-in it is : for , with-in that Bodie , even affected , in common , and bearing the name or number of the Beast , were , alwayes , numbers , of not onlie lawfull , but , also , true Pastours , to giue Ordination . For , a sicke Bodie , is still a true , and living Bodie : but , the Sicknesse , in it , is no part of it , and is Enemie to the Lyfe there-of . Next , agayne , if , by the name of the Church of ROME , your Poet vnderstand , even the Papalitie , or characterized Papistes : that is , the incurable parts , deadlie festered with the Sore , ( which onlie wee impugne : ) then , al-be-it not absolutelie , yet , in some respect , wee grant , the Ordination , even so given , to haue beene lawfull : namelie , so long as they retayned outward Place , and Power of Ordination ; before Antichrist's full detection , and separation of the revived Witnesses , from the contagious Companie . Because , al-be-it the Ordayners were Wolues , and Thieues , yet they were not , in common , knowne to bee so : but , retayned still , with all , in common , the reputation , if not of true , yet , of lawfull Pastours . In which case , the receiving of Ordination , from them , was nothing praejudiciall to the sincere Receiver of the same , who had not , as yet , espyed them to be Traytors . And , this Lawfulnesse was not , because it was ministred by the Sore , or deadlie festered parts in the Bodie : but , because those festered parts were still in the Bodie of the Church , and , in common , all-so , esteemed to bee of it : and , al-be-it dead , incurable , and contagious , yet were not cut off , outwardlie , from the Bodie : thus , retayning , still , the account of Members ; al-be-it , in effect , they were none , but a deadlie consuming Evill . If your Poet , poore Man , had eyther vnderstoode , or considered , what , I thinke , I haue , playnlie , layde before you : if hee had not beene , first , a verie shallowe Ignorant , and vnstable PROTESTANT ; and , now , ( I warrand you ) no profound PAPIST : howe could this haue , so much , stupified him , and casten him into such a Musing ; that , in the REFORMATION of the CHVRCH , wee made no question , to receiue , and vse , the MINISTRIE , of PRIESTES , ordayned by the CHVRCH , which hee calleth ROMANE ? For , as the Bodie , all-bee-it affected , yet was the Bodie : So , the Calling of the MINISTERS therein , all-bee-it taynted , and corrupted , in common , yet , was a CALLING ; and , that , according vnto the state , and tyme , lawfull . And , your Poet his Muzing , hath , heere-in , so marred his Memorie ; that , forgetting what they moste object agaynst vs ; hee yeeldeth vs , heere-by , that our PASTOVRES , and REFORMERS , had an ordinarie Vocation . Nowe , as I haue opened , the implyed Deceit , of your Poet his Proposition , and Assumption , you may see , ( Philomathes ) what Conclusion hee can bee able to builde therevpon ; eyther for the Church of ROME , not-with-standing anie Confession of ours ; or , yet , agaynst vs. And , this , for-sooth , is the Argument , where-of all your Men , so much glorie , as , they doe entitle it , their INVINCIBLE ARGVMENT : and , where-in your Poet hath so much pleased him-selfe , that hee hath reserved it , for his last Blowe : and , falleth , even for to muze , what wee can bee able to answere there-vnto : and , is so secure , of getting none Answere from vs , as , hee is content , to set this , to all his Disciples , for a terme of adhering to the Romish Faith : till wee , for-sooth , finde out an Aunswere there-vnto . But , besides that little , which I haue , heere , sayde , as I thinke , I haue aunswered there-vnto , so at length , and playnlie , in my Defence of our Callinges , and Epistle , to a Recusant , ( where , of purpose , this poynt is handeled ) as , I neede not , heere , at this tyme , insist farder there-in . I referre you , to those TREATISES , for a more distinct Light , and fuller Resolution heere-in . Which , if you shall reade , with care , and that Ingenuitie , which I conceiue to bee in you ; it may fall , that your Poet repent him , of praefixing you so short a tyme , to remayne a Romanist . Philomathes . I will , GOD willing , reade them , both carefullie , and vprightlie . And , seeing that in them , as you say , this poynt of matter , is purposelie handeled ; I will not vrge you to speake more there-of , at this tyme. For , even in the little , which you haue sayde , you haue given mee some-what more , to muze vpon , than I expected : and , which will stirre mee , to search what , more accuratelie , heere-of , you haue , else-where , written . Philadelphus . I hope , ( Philomathes ) you shall finde your selfe so satisfied , in this , which your Men esteeme , and call , their Invincible Argument , by reading those TREATISES ; and , shall finde it , in them , so solidlie aunswered , as though your Poet should not onlie fall from his Muses , to muzing : but , even , from Muzing , should fall to Madnesse ; yet shall hee never bee able , to make there-vnto anie sound Replye . As for his Counsell , which , vpon vayne Confidence of this his Argument , hee giveth , of cleaving to the Romish Fayth ; let them follow it , whom GOD hath not , and vpon more ●…ure Groundes , advysed better . If hee were able to prooue , eyther , That the Doctrine , preached by his Apostle , AVGVSTINE , was the true , and vncorrupted FAYTH of CHRIST ; or , that , since AVGVSTINE'S tyme , it had not received great Increase of Corruption ; hee might the better bynde vs to his Counsell . But , bare Personall Succession , without Evidence of the principall , and moste proper Succession , vvill never conclude that . And , your Poet prooveth , but still lyke him-selfe , and closeth vp his Ryme , ridiculouslie , in bringing it . Our Callings , still , you , impudentlie , quarrell , Though Ansvveres you haue gotten manie one . Your Poet 's prickt , with playne approaching Perill , Of your Empyre , and Romes now tottring Throne . Not daring more our Doctrine then oppone , Hee fettleth , faultie to finde our Vocation . Forgetting strayght , and what hee sayeth , anone , Muzing , hee mooues to vs this Exprobuation ; That Popish Priests , with vs , kept Place , and Title . Your Poet , poore Man , muzeth much on little . CHAPTER IX . PHILADELPHVS . NOW , ( Philomathes ) I thinke , you see , howe , at your Intreatie , Eubulus hath , clearlie , aunswered , vnto all your Man's Questions : vvhere-of , at the beginning , you praesumed so much , as , that there were some of them , to which , verie hardlie , hee would finde an Aunswere . Philomathes . Verilie , ( Philadelphus ) I can not denye , but that I rest greatlie Debter , both to you , and to Eubulus , for this Dayes Communication : and , that , so cowardlie , at myne Intreatie , you were induced there-vnto : where-in , I thinke , the tyme hath beene so well spent , as ( if it may not bee vnpleasant vnto him ) it may make mee to bee , often , heere-after , a more than troublesome , Interrupter of Eubulus better Thoughtes . As for your Aunsweres , I will not , so rashlie , determine , what to thinke : but , truelie , I must , vprightlie , confesse , that I haue heard more , than I expected : which , stirreth mee , to covet yet more ; and , will make mee , carefullie , to catch all Occasions , to breede Eubulus farder Molestation . Eubulus . Your honest Heart , ( Philomathes ) will make mee , all-wayes , glad , and readie to giue you Contentment , in ought I can : For , other-wayes , truelie , I , vtterlie , abhorre all contentious Disputation ; and , I account , all , both Speach , and Paper , but badlie employed , which is spent , vpon anie of such a Disposition . My Counsell , vnto you , and , out of vpright Loue , is ; As GOD hath given you this , that you , both heare , and reade , calmlie , and carefullie : So , that you bee , both earnest , and instant , in all humble , and fervent Prayer , vnto GOD , for the Direction of HIS Holie Spirit , in the right way of HIS Feare ; which is the onelie Way , to true Illumination : and , not heate of Contention , Bitternesse , Pryde , Selfe-loue , and Singularitie ; which : ( in GOD His justice , Who resisteth the Prowde , and giveth Grace vnto the Humble ) but involue Men , still , more and more , in Blyndnesse , and induration of Heart . Philomathes . I giue you heartie Thankes , all-so , for this your good , and loving Counsell : which , by GOD His Grace , I shall bee myndfull of , and labour to followe . And , nowe , vnto that Grace of GOD , wee must , even heartilie , commende you : For , both the declyning tyme of the Day , and our Effayres , doe call vs another way . PHILADELPHVS , and EVBVLVS . The BLESSING of GOD , accompanie you , in all your wayes : and , direct you , in the right Path of SALVATION . PHILOMATHES , and ERIPHILVS , a-part . PHILOMATHES . AND , haue wee not , thinke you , ( Eriphilus ) spent , both pleasantlie , and profitablie , a piece of tyme ? Trust mee , I can not , but lyke well of this Eubulus , his discreet Disposition : though but even now first acquaynted with him . And , hath hee not , thinke you , sayd much more , in the poynts , which wee haue passed , both agaynst vs , and for them-selues , than wee could haue imagined , that , possiblie , they might haue brought ? So , as , verilie , the longer , the more , I am induced , to thinke , and see , that it is a good , yea , a necessarie thing , for Christians , to bee humblie , and prudentlie carefull ; in prooving , and trying , what they doe holde , in Matters of Fayth ; where-in Men stand , in no lesse hazard , than of missing of , or hitting on , the right Way of Salvation . Eriphilus . I am so farre from your Temper , in this matter , ( Philomathes ) as , by the playne contrarie , I thinke , wee haue badlie bestowed this Day : where-in , with great indignation of Heart , I haue beene forced , to heare the Holie Church , disdaynfullie mocked , and bitterlie rayled vpon . So , as I , both blame my selfe greatlie , for casting in anie such purpose , and you , al-so , for so curiouslie insisting there-in . And , by this Dayes experience , I perceiue , well , how just reason our Holie Fathers haue , to interdict Catholickes , absolutelie , of all ; eyther hearing of these Heretickes , or conference with them , or reading of their Bookes : and , that how-so-ever , some coole-mynded Men , can not brooke it , thereis great reason , of ridding away , and dispatching , out of the Worlde , even by all meanes , of such pestilent and pernicious Men : vvho , except they bee quyte razed out , will not fayle , to subvert the whole state of the World. For , I see , ( Philomathes ) that , by your giving Eare , to their charming Speaches , you are , all-readie , put in the Stayes ; yea , halfe over-turned . For me , when-so-ever I heare ought of them , to which I can not make Aunswere ; I , then , make the Signe of the Crosse , over my Person ; and , I turne myne Heart , and Eares , another way . So , as , let them speake , wryte , or preach , what they please , ( how true , playne , and infallible , so-ever , it appeare ; ) yet , I determine , with my selfe , That it is false : and , I rest , vpon the Authoritie of holie Church ; whose Doctrine , I count it sinne , once to put in question . Philomathes . Agaynst an vndoubted Light , and clearlie convincing Trueth , it were , in-deede , high sinne , once to deliberate : much more , curiouslie , or carnallie , to make question . But , for attayning to Knowledge , and Resolution , in doubtfull Matters ; to enquire humblie , soberlie , and sincerelie ; wee not onelie well may , but , all-so , are , of duetie , holden . And , who , without Light , are carried , vpon anie Man's Credite , in Matters of Salvation ; I thinke , they more resemble senselesse Blockes , than wyse Christians . As for your other Opinion , ( of ridding away , out of the Worlde , by what-so-ever meanes , those you call Haeretickes ) I am sorie to heare it of you : and , so much the more , if you haue vttered it , not onelie out of Passion ; but , all-so , out of a setled judgement . And , to speake freelie to you , in this ; I thinke , this Doctrine , in manie of our Men , bewrayeth , evidentlie , what Spirit they are of . And , for mee , I not onelie , can account them , no Christians ; but , even , no Men at all ; or , worthie of humane Societie : who , vnder anie Praetext of Zeale , doe shake all Bandes of Pietie , and Civilitie . And , it will bee , assuredlie , seene , ( Eriphilus ) that this Tragicall , and bloodie Wisedome , ( where-by Men , nowe , are begun to thinke , that the Catholicke Fayth , must bee mayntayned ) shall bee the Meane , to hasten the Ruine of the Romish Church : vvhyle all the Worlde shall bee wakened , by their owne Perill , and cleare Sight , of such monstrous Inhumanitie , to destroy the Destroyers of the Earth . EVBVLVS , and PHILADELPHVS , a-part . EVBVLVS . YOU did tell mee , verie rightlie , at our first Discoverie of these two Gentle-men , that , all-bee-it , both of them Papistes ; yet , they were , of a much contrarie Disposition : for , so wee haue , in-deede , tryed them . I loue this Philomathes his Towardnesse ; and , I hope well of him . The other's Waywardnesse , and bitter Disposition , I dislyke as farre . Philadelphus . You remember , how , even before our encountring of them , I was wishing you , to make some Answere to these Questions , of this Ballader : and , Theriomachus was , all-so , of my judgement . Now , though you refused to doe so ; yet , let mee intreat you , thus farre , as to wryte , but a short Record , of this our Dayes Conference . Eubulus . Though , even that piece of Paynes , were , in my Opinion , but ydle , and vnprofitable ; yet , it is too small a matter , where-of to refuse you : whom , for manie respects , I am holden , both to loue , and honour . For , other-wayes , to wryte , eyther at length , or of purpose , anie Answere , to such things , ( so often , and , so learnedl●…e , confuted ) I neyther thinke it expedient , for anie , so ●…o bus●…e him-selfe ; and , for me , in so manifolde Distractions , which , you know , I haue , and , a daylie Employment , in the matters of my Calling ; together , with such imbecillitie of Bodie , as can not endure great Paynes ; I were even greatlie blame-worthie , so to waste , eyther Tyme , or Travell . There-fore , hence-foorth , let no Man put mee to businesse . GOD grant , wee may earnestlie studie , to our owne Sanctification ; and , according to that great Dispensation committed vnto vs , wee may labour to worke the same , carefullie , in the Heartes of others : and , not to delight in contention of Disputations ; about Questions , which but ingender Stryfe ; and , doe more feast ydle Humours , than they edifie Godlie Soules . Illuminate , O Blessed LORD of Lights , The syled Eyes , of simple ones , to see : Disclose the Deepnesse so of Satan's Slights , That straying Sheepe , may turne agayne to THEE . Sling Babell , as a Mill-stone , in the Sea ; And let the NEW IERUSALEM , All-Glorious , Twelue Ports of Pearle cast vp , for Entrie free , To All , who in the Lambs Blood are victorious . Bring downe that Beast , of all this Evill th'Enacter ; His Name , his Number , and his curst Character . FINIS . A PASTORALL ADMONITION , TO REPENTANCE . WHat wonder , though they haue so small successe , All Enterpryzes by vs vndertaken ? Wee , meschantlie , haue re-admitted Messe , Which , happilie , was frō our sholders shakē . Thus , having foulie , then , our Faith forsaken , All our Endevours , duelie , GOD deludeth . HIS Choler kindleth still , and can not slaken : HEE , justlie , still , our sinfull Sutes secludeth . Nor , shall our Foes , but daylie vexe , and wrong vs , Till once wee put all strange Gods from among vs. No loue of Messe , had ever ledde vs to it : This Groundes was , on Politicke Praetences : But , no Fraetence , had driven vs to doe it , If , in our GOD , wee had plac'd all Defences . But , from HIS Word , so strayed haue our Senses , In Humane Helpe , wee our Repose haue placed . And , there-fore , GOD vs rightlie recompenses . Our Designes fayle , our Doinges are disgraced . To Asa , King , what GOD spake , by Hanani , Concerneth vs , much more than him , or anie . From Syrian's King , Asa succour sought , And , hyred them , with State , and Temples Treasure . Wee vayner helpe , at dearer ●…ate haue bought : Of Asa's Sinne , exceeding much the measure : And , doubled thus , haue on vs GOD'S displeasure ; On-drawing , vndeclynable Destruction , Repent wee not , whyle wee haue anie leasure . It 's cleare , by vndenyable Induction , Some Wages , Asa war'd out on that Nation : Of Babell , wee bring in th'Abhomination . Prowde Ammons King , with Iabesh , was contented , For to conclude , a Covenant , of Peace ; So being , beastlie , that they had consented , To vnder-goe a singular Disgrace : That , pulling out their right Eyes , from their Face , All Israel hee might , so make ashamed . But , much more ignominious is our Case , Our Beastlinesse , and much more to bee blamed . Our Parties Pryde , surpasse●…h that Exemple : To Molech , wee must re-erect a Temple . Then , let vs turne agayne to GOD , who smytes vs : And , doubtlesse , Hee will vnto vs returne . Slyding abacke , so long as it delytes vs , Wee never shall misse Matter for to mourne . It 's senselesse Pryde , agaynst the Pricks to spurne . Take counsell , then , while CHRIST vpon vs calleth : His kindled wrath , begin it once to burne , Woe to the Wicked , in His Fangues that falleth . Will wee but put all strange Gods from among vs , And all the World will bee too weake to wrong vs. With Pittie , LORD , respect Thy People poore , In IESVS CHRIST ; who , gracious and good , Salvation to Sinners , did procure , By sheeding , on the Crosse , his Sacred Blood. HEE is our Solace , and Coelestiall Food ; Vs nursing vp , in hope of endlesse Glorie : HEE hath remooved all that vs with-stood : HEE comforts vs , gainst all may make vs sorie . Since , here-to , nought , but Mercie miere , did moue THEE , Should wee not , LORD , with all our Soules , then , loue THEE ? FINIS . The Author his Meditation , on the 63 Yeare of his Age , now 〈◊〉 - 〈◊〉 . THis is ( I know ) my Climactericke yeare , And , where-in , if it shall please GOD to take mee , What profit , or what pleasure , haue I here , So louelie , as the loue there-of may make mee , Affect frayle Lyfe , which must , at length , forsake mee ? Which is of Illes , but a Succession Sphericke : Where-of each houre , I count my Climactericke . On ●…irier Hopes , my Soule it selfe heere stayeth : I neyther loathe , nor loue , long heere to liue . Long byding , heere , my Blessednesse delayeth . Heere , vnder Sinne , I doe but groane , and grieue : Heart-broken , but that , firmlie , I belieue , My Death , an Ende shall set to Sinne and Sorrow . Gladlie , come on , then , gratefull Guest , to morrow . Meane whyle , my GOD , with Thy good Sprite direct mee , So as I never wander from THY Wayes : And , by THY Potent Power , so protect mee , As , stable I may stand , gaynst all Essayes . Discowrage not THY Servaunt , with Delayes : But , how-so-ev'r it shall please THEE to proue mee , Still let me feele , my LORD , that THOV dost loue me . Each moment teach m●…e , of my Day●…s , to number : To Wisedome , whollie , that myne Heart applying , I never sinke downe , in a senselesse slumber : But , ( Lusts , and all vngodlinesse denying ; And on THY loving Promises relying ) In all Assaultes , I may haue Hope , and Hearting : And , last , to THEE , a peaceable Departing . I seeke not Peace , with Sinners , or with Sinne : But Peace , which passeth vnderstanding all . Which New-birth , heere , doth in our breasts begin : In that mee keepe , till hence , LORD , Thou mee call . From Fayth , Hope , Loue , LORD , let mee never fall : But , fighting out this good Fight , by THY Grace , Aeternallie , syne , let mee see THY Face . There shall I fynde , that inexhausted Fountayne , Of endlesse Blisse : there shall my Soule bee filled , With sight of Thee : there , setled on my Mountayne , I shall haue more , than Heart ev'r wisht or willed . In Booke of Lyfe , there shall I see mee Billed . Sacietie of Ioyes lyes there-in Store , And vnperturbed Pleasures , ever-more . Passe vp , then , Soule ; possesse that pleasant Place . Onlie for GOD'S peculiar Ones prepared . Goe in to Glorie , by the Gate of Grace ; Where never more in Sinne thou shalt bee snared . What wee shall bee , there shall it bee declared . I long to know the Cafe , which never Eye , Here saw , Eare heard , Heart thought , what that may bee . FINIS . ESCAPES , IN PRINTING . Pag. lin . for reade 10 35 exceding opportunitie , exceeding opportun●…lie . 11 22 Thessalonian , Thessalian . 12 5 Thessalonian , Thessalian . 27 8 to her owne , of her owne . 37 26 Mamackes , Maniackes . 41 22 are seene , are not seene . 46 30 Gates that are , Gates are . 66 3 and no part , as no part . Ibid. 9 notiue , nociue . 70 31 his is , this is . 71 5 cleareth you , cheareth you . Ibid. 13 Mules , Moles . Ibid. 15 at a lite , not a little . 78 3 separablie , separatelie . 88 16 Mules , Moles . 97 19 in doing , is doing . 113 24 a gayne , a Game . 127 31 cloze all , clozeth all . 128 21 ingeniouslie , ingenuouslie . ●…51 18 to bee a separate , to a separate . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A01042-e1070 I. II. 1. Cor. 15. 32 III. ●…atth . 1●… . 16. ●…lesiast . 1●… . 13 ▪ ●…sal . 49. 〈◊〉 . IV. V. VI. VII . I. II. III. IV. V. VI. Iohn 1●… . Iohn 14. 2●… . VII : Iohn . 5. ●…9 . & ●…7 . 〈◊〉 . 2. Tim. 3. 17. Matth. 15. 9. Cant. 1. 6. In Mich. In Matth. H●…mil . 49. In Matth. H●…mil . ●…49 . Ep. 80. ad E●… sta . Medic. Lib. 3. cap. 4. Ad Maximin . lib. 3. cap. 13. VIII . Ep. 119. ad lanuar . IX . Eccles. 12. 11. De Unitat. Eccl. cont . ●…il . Ep. 166. cap. ●… . Ad 〈◊〉 , cont . Ep. 〈◊〉 . ●…ib . 2. d●… Bapt. cont . Do●…t cap. ●… . 1. Iohn , 4. 3. 1. Cor. 12. 3. Matth. 7. 21. Iudg. 14. 18. Lib. 31 cap. 3. Lib. 3. cap. 2. Acts , 17. 11. X. Iohn , 5. ●…9 . 2. Pet. 1. 19. 2. Tim. 3. 16. Psal. 119. ●… . Exod. 32. ●… . De Doctrin . Christian . Lib. 1. Cap. 37. 1. Cor. 2. 14. Matth. 13. 11. Iohn , ●… . 17. Iohn , 10. Proverb . ●… . ●… . Prov. 13. 6. 2. Cor. 4. 4. De doct . Chr●… lib. 2. cap. 6. & ●… . XI . Cont. Epist. Fundam●… . XII . Lib. de vtilit●… . De 〈◊〉 ●…el . cap. 1. XIII . XIV . XV. Boni Cath●…ci sunt , qui fidem integram & bor●… mores servant . August to●… . 4. in Qu●…stion . super Ma●…th . Idem Augustin Tom. 1. lib. d●… v●…ra religion . cap. 7. Co●…endar Ecclesia cath●…lica soci●…tatem , qua lumen Christia●… Religionis & Scripturar●… , Regul●…que Veritatis 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in 〈◊〉 non abol●…tur , seips●… & postcritat●… cogi , Papa●… pr●… Antichristo , & Roma●… pro vera Babylonia agnoscere . Bernardus , super Psal. 91. lib. 4. ad Euge●…m . ●… II. Heb. ●…1 . 1 ▪ III. Revel . 2. Rev. 12. ●… . Thess. 2. Contr. Ep ▪ fund . De Vnitat . Eccl. contr . Pa●…l . In Math. homil . 49. Revel . 16. 12. IV. V. Rom. 15. 1●… . XII . Malach. 1. 11. Rev. 1. 6. Hosca . 14. 3. Rom. 1●… . 1. Heb. 13. 16. Philip. 4. 18. Heb. 7. 27. ●…el , 2. 28. ●… , 19. 19. XIII . Rom. 10. 1●… . Iob. 1. 7. and 1. Pet. 5. 8. Matth. 23. 1●… ▪ ●…ut yet , in it ●…l be●… a tenth , it shall re●…e , and shall eaten , as a ●…-tree , and as Oake , whose stance is in ●… , when they ●… their leaues : ●…he holie seed , ●…ll be the sub●…ce there-of . ●…sai . 6. 13. ●…onsuetudo ●…tre non debet , ●… minus veritas consuet●… 〈◊〉 veritate vetu●… est error●… , 〈◊〉 propter 〈◊〉 errore sequ●… veritatem . Cyprian , ad Pompe●… . Nova et p●…grina censenda sunt qu●… Christ●… non doc●…it ▪ nec omnia qua vetera sunt admit●…s debent . Ibid●… . I. II. III. IV. V. Revel . 13. Revel . 1●… and ●… Revel . 2. 13. ad vinc●… . 〈◊〉 . 48. Revel . 18. 7. Isai. 54. 1●… . Revel . 12. Revel . 13. Revel . 8. and Revel . 14. and Revel . 7. 9. Revel . 11. Revel . 14. Revel . 1●… . 12. Revel . 18. ●… . ●…es . 2. ●…l . 13. ●…l . 14. VI. VII . ●…vel . 11. ●… . Neque 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 res●…e 〈◊〉 non potest 〈◊〉 Christian●… : ●… 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 v●…ra , si 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 p●… times , & 〈◊〉 tati●… ab 〈◊〉 bus s●…pscrit . 〈◊〉 ill●… 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Arn●…ius , 3. adversus ●…tes . ●…reger . Na●…n . orat . 21. d●…●…d . Ath●…nasii . ●…ee who pro●…eth one , and ●… same Do●…ne of Fayth , ●… fellow-part●…er of the same ●…ayre : but who maintaineth a ●…trarie ●…eth , is to bee ●…ounted an ●…versarie , al●…it even sitting the Chayre . ●…d this , in●…de , hath the ●…ne , but that ●…er hath the ●…e matter , and ●…eth of Succes●…n . I. II. Defe●…e of Sect. 4. Defence of Sect. ●…3 . & III. Eccles. lib. 3. cap. 15. IV. ●…l . 13. 11. V. VI. ●…vel . 3. 1. Reve●…●… VII . Rev. 14 I. ●… 11. ●… . 21. Rev. 11. ●… . 2. King. 6. ▪ IX X. ●…I . w , 24. ●…l . 2. Revel . 11. and 14 Chrysost. Homil. 46 , in Matth. Hee goeth not out of the Church , who goeth out bodilie ; but he who spirituallie leaveth the Fundaments of Ecclesiasticall Trueth ▪ Wee went out from them , in regard of place ; but , they , from vs , in regard o●… Fayth . Wee haue left , with them , th●… Fundamentes o●… Walles : but , they haue left , with vs , the Fundaments of Scriptures . Speciosum qu●…dem nomen est pacis , & pulchra est opi●… vnitatis : sed q●… ambigat 〈◊〉 s●… Ecclesia atque Evangelior●… v●…tam p●…cē esse qu●… Christi est ▪ Hilar ▪ lib. contr . 〈◊〉 ▪ & alios Arri●…s ▪ Hand ill●…●… Ecclesia pac●… disc●… , imò 〈◊〉 conseq●… fidei loade●… qui a 〈◊〉 perfidia sa segrega●… , & 〈◊〉 tagio crimi●… discod●… . Cypr. 〈◊〉 de U●…tat . Eccl●… ●… . 25. ●… . 14. verse . ●… . II. 5. ●…h . 3. 1. III. 2. Kings . 3. 1●… ltiwne who ●…nge ●… . ●… a 〈◊〉 de ●… I●… II. ●…th , 23. 29. V. ●… I II IV. V. ●… V●… VI●… 1. Tim. 4. 3. IX . 〈◊〉 , ad Hime●… , cap. 7. X. XI . XII . XIII XIV XV. XVI . Iohn . 1●… . 2●… . Matth. 27. 6. Iob , 1 ●… Rom. 3. XVII . When th●… wicked ryse , hyde themsel but when th●… perish , the Ri●… teous increas●… Prov. ●… . ●… † Caput nostrum est in coelo : sed n●… putes quod sit separatum caput a corpore . Discretum est enim loci●… . sed junctum ●…ffectious . Angnstm. in Psal. 91. Chrysost. homil . 35. in Matth. cap. 20. Who-so-ever hee bee , that affecteth Primacie in Earth , shall finde confusion in Heaven : neyther shall hee , come in the coūt of CHRIST'S Servantes , who maketh businesse about Primacie . XVIII . XIX . XX. XXI . Revel . 9. Thess. 2. and Revel . 11. ●…evel . 14. and 7. and 9. 4. Thess. 2. 7. 1. Iohn , 4. 3. Matth. 13. 2●… Revel . 13. XXII . Revel . 2. 13. ●…evel . 11. 3. Revel . 12. 6. 14. ●…evel . 14. 1. ●…evel . 13. 10. ●…nd 14. 12. ●…evel . 11. 8. ●…evel . 17. 6. ●…evel . 17. 3. Exod. 3●… . Exod. 32. 26. 1 Kings , 19. 24. 1 Kings , 18. 13. 1 Kings . 1●… . 1●… . Defence of Ca●… . Sect. 19. Rev. 1●… . and 2●… . XXIII . XXIV . XXV . XXVI . Revel . 11. 2. XXVII . Revel . 2. 4. 14. 20. and 3. 1. 15. 〈◊〉 . 54. 11. Cant. 5. ●… . Revel . 12. 1●… Revel . 27. XXVIII . Revel . 14. 1. Revel . 13. 3. 8. 1●… . XXIX . Revel . 2. 13. XXX . Revel . 14. 1. Revel . 11. XXXI . XXXII . Lake . 11. 5●… . Matth. 23. ●…3 . XXXIII . XXXIV . XXXV . ●…vel . ●… . 2. 2. Sam. 15. 11. Chapter 13. XXXVI . XXXVII . ●…evel . ●…1 . Revel . 14. Acts ▪ 11. 26. Revel●…ion , 20. Revel . 13. 2. Revel . 1●… . 3. Revel . 13. 1. Revel . 17. 3. Revel . 2. 14. Revel . 2. 20. XXXVIII . ●… . Th●…ss . ●… . 15. E●…ra , 1. 7. 1. Sa●… . 6. ●… . XXXIX . XL. XLI . 〈◊〉 . 11. and 14. I. II. III.