A replie vnto a certaine libell, latelie set foorth by Fa: Parsons, in the name of vnited priests, intituled, A manifestation of the great folly and bad spirit, of certaine in England, calling themselues seculer priestes VVith an addition of a table of such vncharitable words and phrases, as by him are vttered in the said treatise, aswell against our parsons, as our bookes, actions, and proceedings. Clark, William, d. 1603. 1603 Approx. 563 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 116 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2008-09 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A17505 STC 4321 ESTC S107159 99842861 99842861 7555 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A17505) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 7555) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1475-1640 ; 1165:13) A replie vnto a certaine libell, latelie set foorth by Fa: Parsons, in the name of vnited priests, intituled, A manifestation of the great folly and bad spirit, of certaine in England, calling themselues seculer priestes VVith an addition of a table of such vncharitable words and phrases, as by him are vttered in the said treatise, aswell against our parsons, as our bookes, actions, and proceedings. Clark, William, d. 1603. Barneby, Francis. aut Clarionet, William, attributed name. [4], 106, [6] leaves Printed by J. Roberts] Iustice, et innocentiæ permissu, [London : Anno Dom. 1603. Preface signed: VV.C., i.e. William Clark, assisted by Francis Barneby. Sometimes attributed to William Clarionet. A reply to: Parsons, Robert. A manifestation of the great folly of certayne in England calling themselves secular priestes. Printer's name and place of publication from STC. The first leaf is blank. Running title reads: A reply to Fa: Parsons libell. Reproduction of the original in the Folger Shakespeare Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. EEBO-TCP is a partnership between the Universities of Michigan and Oxford and the publisher ProQuest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by ProQuest via their Early English Books Online (EEBO) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). The general aim of EEBO-TCP is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic English-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in EEBO. EEBO-TCP aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the Text Encoding Initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). The EEBO-TCP project was divided into two phases. The 25,363 texts created during Phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 January 2015. Anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. Users should be aware of the process of creating the TCP texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. Text selection was based on the New Cambridge Bibliography of English Literature (NCBEL). If an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in NCBEL, then their works are eligible for inclusion. Selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. In general, first editions of a works in English were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably Latin and Welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. Image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. Quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in Oxford and Michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet QA standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. After proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. Any remaining illegibles were encoded as s. Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Parsons, Robert, 1546-1610. -- Manifestation of the great folly of certayne in England calling themselves secular priestes. Catholic Church -- Great Britain -- Early works to 1800. 2006-03 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2006-03 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2007-03 Ali Jakobson Sampled and proofread 2007-03 Ali Jakobson Text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A REPLIE VNTO a certaine Libell , latelie set foorth by Fa : Parsons , in the name of vnited Priests , intituled , A manifestation of the great folly and bad spirit , of certaine in England , calling themselues seculer Priestes . With an addition of a Table of such vncharitable words and phrases , as by him are vttered in the said Treatise , aswell against our parsons , as our bookes , actions , and proceedings . ¶ Pro iustitia agonizare pro anima tua , et vsque ad mortem certâ pro iustitia , et Deus expugnabit pro te inimicos tuos . Ecclesiast . cap. 4. ¶ Noli esse humilis in sapientia tua , ne humiliatus in stultitiam seducaris . Ibidem . cap. 13. ❧ Justitiae , et innocentiae permissu . Anno Dom. 1603. The Epistle to the Priests , said to be vnited with the Archpriest . * ⁎ * REuerend and my deere bretheren , whom with my soule I loue , and honour with my hart , I cannot but be sory to see you so vniustly abused by the slights and cunning deuises of the Iesuits : and more , to see you , ( whom wisedome and discretion should make perfect and expert in the affaires of our poore afflicted Church , so applaude their proceedings , that worke your bane , or at the least , by holding your peace , to approoue such actions in them , as tend to the ouerthrow of your selues . Tell mee I beseech you , in your owne vnderstandings , are you not highly abused in bearing the name of these two late Libells , viz. the Apologie , and Manifestation : in both which , not onely the honour of priesthood is impeached , and our whole Cleargie disgraced , debased , and sought to be held in slauery , and subiection to the Iesuits & theyr creatures , but also such vndutifull actions and practises , as haue beene attempted by them , or any other Catholicke from the beginning of her Maiesties raigne , vntill this day , are maintained , defended , excused , or iustified : whereby your liues are engaged , as accessary to all treasons , plots , & practises done , or attempted against our Soueraigne and Country , by such parsons : in that to approue , defend , or maintaine any action , is ( as you knowe ) to make the approuer , defender , and maintainer , accessary thereto : iudge then what cause you haue to thanke such Maisters , for this theyr good office , in laying snares to entrappe you withall : and thinke whether this deuise be not a plot of purpose to bring you into as great obloquy with your Prince , ( as through theyr own vndutifull practises ) they haue brought themselues , thereby to turne the sword of persecution vpon all ( as heeretofore ) for some particuler mens offences . Deere brethren , if you regard not the wrongs , and oppressions doone to vs your brethren , and neerer vnto you in all right of reason , then the Iesuits are ; if you regard not the deiection and oppression of your Cleargie , which they violently seeke ; if you respect not theyr actions , and attempts against your natiue country , and neerest friends : yet regard your selues , respect your owne liues , haue a care to the common , and generall good of altogether , insiduated , and betrayed by them : disclaime from such actions , wherein you haue no part , neither desire ( I thinke ) to haue . I know your harts to be loyall , let them not be stained by a false imputation from a deceitfull Iesuit . Beleeue me , her Maiestie dooth make difference betwixt practisers in matters of state , and religion , and therefore suffer not your names to be brought into question for such odious dealings , by the cunning policies of Fa. Parsons , inrowling thē to the approbations of such hatefull trecheries . And if there were n● difference at all made ( as I know there is ) yet were it glorious to die a Cath : priest , in profession of the Cath : fayth , without taint , or imputation of those foule crimes . But some of you happily may be ignorant , how farre you are abused in this kinde : vouchsafe but the reading ouer of this reply to the latter Libell , & you shall easily perceiue more danger to be couched therein , then you are aware of , and thereby see the better what wrong is offered you , in publishing the same in your names . If in the perusing hereof any word may seeme ouer-sharpe , which yet I haue endeuoured to auoyde , consider I beseech you the deformity of some matters vniustly & vncharitably auerred against vs , & that all such sharpe words touch onely one man , the Author of these iniurious Libels , and Architect of this whole businesse , and then I hope you will with more ease yeeld pardon to such excesse : If any other faults eyther in stile , or defectiue handling of matters obiected occur , beare with the author , this beeing his first worke , and hudled vp in hast , without such helpes , as longer time might haue affoorded him , yeelding him in all things as fauourable a censure as you may : who is ready to protest in the sincerity of a Catholicke priest , that neyther malice , anger , passion , nor desire of reuenge , drew him to vndertake this worke , but onely a sincere opinion of iustice , and innocencie , so much impugned by Fa : Parsons , in defence wherof hee thought himselfe bound ( as well in respect of the common cause , as his owne particuler interest therein ) to shew his best indeuours . Your friend and brother VV. C. ❧ The Preface generall to Catholickes . COurteous , and beneuolent Catholicks , I present here vnto you a reply vnto a certaine Libell , intituled , A manifestation of the great folly , and bad spirit of certaine in England , calling themselues seculer Priests : which happening into my hands , I diligently red ouer , & hauing without passion perused it , and with indifferencie ( as to my selfe seemed ) poysing and considering as well the matter deliuered , with the forme and manner of the deliuery , as also the verity thereof , I could not but a little wonder , to see a man so mightily inueigh against passion , and bitter writing in others , shewing so much choler , passion , yea and impatience , as hee doth here . And did I not descry the Author thereof to be one particuler Parson , not many priests , ( vnder whose names falsly , yea and vncharitably it is published , thereby to bring them into obloquy with their Prince , and state , vnto whom the Iesuits practises in state matters , heere defended , are odious ) I should much admire to see so palpable vntruths defended , so manifest vniust actions maintained , and such apparant verities with such boldnes denied : but the worke proceeding frō the party it doth , hammered in the forge it was , I could expect no other , then I found ; & therefore my wonder was the lesse , and my admiration sooner at an end . For why , the man is well knowne to be of such a naturall disposition , as that if he once enter into any course , he will with infinite violence prosecute the same . Vpon which headstrong cariage , & irremouable wilfulnes , many straines ( you know ) and ouerstrainings , must needs follow , and many fained inuentions , with concealements of truthes , yea and in the end , open impugnations of verities , the better to iustifie former proceedings , least happily otherwise , the fault might seeme too light , where it may in no case be indured . Pardon mee deere Catholickes , in deliuering the truth with such plainenes : let not your antecedent conceits of Fa : Parsons worthines , preiudicate your cens●●es in matters so apparant , and such , as will admit no refuge , for that were to blind your selues wilfully with affection beyond reason . I remit the iudgement of this my discourse wholy vnto your discreet & indifferent censure ; if you find not iust cause to condemne the aforesaid Libell , and author thereof , for the faults aboue cited , then blame me iustly of wrong done , and I will yeeld to satisfie at your discretions : if you do find true , this which I haue said , giue not ouer your selues heereafter to be abused with too much credulitie in father Parsons proceedings . And heere I must a little craue pardon , if in this my discourse you find me more plaine , and bold with the said Father , then you would wish , imputing the same to the extremity of matters falsely , and vniustly by him deliuered ; and to the desert of his actions , as beeing in very deede , the Arch-plotter of all such disgustfull affaires , as haue caused all these troubles , and garboyles from time to time amongst vs : which thing enforced me a little to presume to display and discouer him plainly vnto himselfe , and the world , if happily thereby eyther hee may reduce himselfe vnto better courses , or otherwise remaine loathed , & reiected of all good English Catho : ( as he deserueth ) whereby he shall be no more able henceforward to deceiue ( through vndeserued opinion ) the best meaning minds : nor plot heereafter against our Prince & country with the conuivence of any . If herein my desires may either way take effect , I shall rest satisfied , and thinke these my first labours happily bestowed . Your affectionate seruaunt in Christ to the shedding of his blood . W. C. An aunswer to the first chap : concerning our pretended manifest folly , & apparent bad spirit , in chusing the argument and subiect of our former Bookes . IT is a world to see the boldnesse of F. Parsons in all his writings , concerning these our late garboyles in England , but especially in this his last rayling Treatise , intituled A manifestation of follies , &c. I must needs lay the worke vnto his charge , so euidently doth it shew it selfe , both in the manner of style , phrases , particuler words , vsuall in other his writings , as also diuers things related and excused , which could proceede from no other forge , then Vulcans . In this his Treatise , as he immodestly , and most falsly dealeth against vs , yea and contrary to his owne knowledge , and conscience , ( as you shall most euidently perceiue by this reply ) so also , after his accustomed manner , doth he deale with no small cunning , as well in concealing of truths , sometimes totally , sometimes in part , as also by couert , and fine colouring , and fashioning of the falshoods hee deliuereth in such sugred , and pleasing manner , as with ease hee may deceiue the well-meaning minde , especially drawne by affection towards his habite , and religion , from whence nought els , but veritie and iustice should flowe . But as this kinde of poyson is most dangerous , and infectiue , because tempered vvith sweete mixtures , and shewe of compassion , where indeede nought els but deceite lurketh ; so I hope it wil be with more care , and diligence auoyded , and reiected of all sorts , when by this our reply , his cunning deceits shall euidently appeare in theyr proper colours , the poyson beeing extracted from the hony , and the subtile deceauing vntruths , sequestred frō the sugred and smooth sentences , wherewith they are cloked . First therefore concerning our first booke intituled Declaratio motuum et turbarum , he sayth it containeth nothing , but a certaine intemperate inuectiue against many good , and worthie men , &c. and is prooued by no other reasons , authorities , or testimonies , but the wordes of passionate writers , &c. Let euery indifferent man , that vnderstandeth the Latine tongue , reade our aforesaid discourse , and but indifferently iudge thereof , whether it be without proofe , authoritie , or testimonie . First it was published not by one man , but by diuers , and in the right and name of many , which were men woorthy to be thought sufficient , whose testimonies might passe currant in law . Secondly , the matters related , were matters of fact , and euen then in practise , and too too well knowne vnto all our Country at home , if not to all the world abroade . For proofe whereof , I refer my selfe to all Cath : in England , concerning the matter of schisme maintained by the Iesuits , & Archpriest against vs , with infinite violence , much infamy for the time , and innumerable particuler wrongs therupon , not vnknown to the meanest Cath : in England . All which seuerall iniuries are touched in that discourse , besides diuers other particulers , as of intermedling in matters of state , discouer'd by theyr owne foolish bookes , pamphlets , euident practises , letters , & messages , which I omit as needlesse to rehearse , referring the Reader to the booke it selfe . Thirdly , that booke was but a declaration , or setting downe of many things in generall to be particulerly proued in time , and place conuenient , where reformation was expected : as I doubt not , but they haue found to no great aduantage since ; and therfore not to cōtaine particuler proofes of euery assertion , though for the most part they be euident ( as I haue sayd ) in themselues . Fourthly , I wish the Reader to consider the weakenesse of this Calumniation , besides the vntruth , and folly thereof by this one Consideration , that the booke was dedicated to his Holines , in a quarrell which wee meant to pursue ( as you see we haue doone ) and therefore not like to containe such iniurious , and manifest false slaunders , with an intemperate inuectiue against good men , ( as this good Father affirmeth ) vnlesse we were mad men , and cleane depriued of wit , and common sence . For in so dooing , wee should haue prouided whips & scourges for our selues , and ouerthrowne our cau●e ( though otherwise neuer so iust , and honest : ) when wee had come to the tribunall of his holines . Add to this , that the booke hauing beene presented to his holines , and perused , and by vs iustified still : no condemnation thereof hath yet come from thence , but it passeth currantly without imputation of such slaunderous falshoods , and inuectiues against good men , as this man would make you belieue . See by this what weight his assertions carry , and marke how worthy of credit hee will proue heereafter . Of the second booke , intituled The copies of discourses , &c. he affirmeth that the first part is contrary to the second , & so doth both aunswer and confound it selfe , &c. And why ( forsooth ) are they contrarie to themselues ? Because ( saith hee ) in the former discourses , we stoode onely vpon the Popes owne Letters to cōfirme those of Cardinall Caietane , assuring them that when any such should come from his holines , there should be no more controuersie ; and yet in the next ensuing discourses , his holines breve of approbation beeing then published , he saith wee were much farther of from obeying the Archpriest , then before . This is the worthy contradiction which aunswereth and confoundeth all therein written . Beleeue me I doe stand heere at a non plus , doubting whether I should excuse this poore man , by imputing some strange weaknes of braine , or distemperature in his head of late befallen him , which bereaueth him eyther totally of his wit , or partly impayreth his iudgement , or wholy depriueth him of his memory : or whether I should flatly condemne him of ouer-much impudencie . Faine I would that some of the former defects in nature might excuse his folly : but I feare me , that if I should goe about so to excuse him , I should not be beleeued . Wherefore I must of necessity leaue him to himselfe , as hee is , and let the burden light vppon his shoulders , as it may . For hauing vndertaken it , I must needs open the truth , though to his shame and losse . You shall therefore vnderstand , that in very deede the first occasion of our standing out from the Archpriest , was the strange and vnusuall bringing of him in vppon vs by the Iesuits , and the iust doubts , and difficulties which wee conceiued in his pretended authoritie , as well concerning the manner , as the substance thereof : yet were we content , and offered ( though to our wrong ) to submit our selues , when by any Apostolicall writ wee might be assured of his holines pleasure that so he had appointed , & would haue it so to be . And to be informed heereof with more speed , we sent two of our brethren to Rome , to propose our difficulties to his holines , & expect his resolution . VVee will omit heere to speake of their good entertainment by Fa : Parsons , theyr Iaylor , being els where sufficientlie discoursed . In the interim how we were vsed at home , you both saw with your eyes , & haue heard often related . Whilst our brethren were in durance in Rome , Fa : Parsons procured this Breve hee speaketh of . To the which wee all presentlie without delay ( as himselfe knoweth , and in the Apologie professeth , though with vncharitable interpretation ) submitted our selues , as we had promised : but that there would be no more controuersie , neither could wee , neither euer did vvee promise ; for that was more in the Archpriest , & the Iesuits to hinder or performe , then in vs. All cause of former controuersie had beene occasioned by them by intermedling in our affaires , and appointing Superuisors for vs , and in raysing , and maintaining the note of schisme against vs most vniustly , as all the world now seeth . And therefore , although we might promise for our selues , yet could wee not make any such absolute assurance , the greatest stroke thereof lying in them , and so little hope giuen vs of true performance of sincere peace indeede . But to proceede , hauing thus submitted our selues , a generall peace ( as we thought ) was concluded by each partie , and order taken , that the note of schisme should perpetuallie be buried in obliuion , and no more vrged against vs. This the Archpriest promised , both for himselfe and the Iesuits , aswell at the attonement , as also to some afterwards in particuler . But yet so wel was this performed on his , & the Iesuits parts , that within one month , or six weekes , the same was a fresh set a flote against vs , as well in places , where we conuersed , as in other places also where we neuer had beene . And to cōfirme , and concurre with these proceedings , the Archpriest sent his directions into all parts , that none of vs should be admitted to the sacrament , without speciall acknowledging that we had been Schismatiques . Whereuppon we were indeede refused in sacraments , reiected from the Alter , and accounted as infamous persons : and Listers Libell was defended , as sound and true doctrine , which charged vs with disobedience , rebellion , and I know not what . The Archpriest spred Letters against vs , made Decrees , refused conference , commaunded vs silence , and forbad vs to appeale , &c. All these things are not vnknowne to Father Parsons , and that by these vncharitable courses , wee were enforced against our wills , to seeke for remedy to the Sea Apostolicke , by course of lawe , and iustice : from the which notwithstanding the Archpriest , and Iesuits sought against all law and order of iustice to hinder and forbid vs. How can it then iustly be saide , that the ensuing discourses , which proceeded vppon this second wrong , were contrary to the first , that proceeded onely vppon difficulties of the institution of the Archpriests office : or how doe they shew , that we were much further from obeying the Archpriest then before ? or doe they not rather shew the vniust & yncharitable proceeding of the Iesuits , and Archp : in reuiuing after the attonement their old calumniations of schisme &c. against innocent priests , and their obstinate violence in prosecuting the same , notwithstanding the euidence of the matter , and the resolution of the most famous Vniuersitie of Paris against them ? Where were then this mans wits , or his honestie , that hee coulde shufle vp such contradictions , and gather out of our due proceedings , such great repugnancie in vs from obedience ? What way in the world I beseech you , ( if you be of any iudgement or capacitie ) could Catho : priests rather take in these so great difficulties , and controuersies , to shew theyr dutie and obedience to Gods Church , then by seeking humbly vnto her bosome and lap , for euidence & reformation in such doubts and troubles ? And nowe add to this the effect therof , clearing vs from all note of disobedience in those proceedings , which may giue sufficient testimonie of our sinceritie , and of their iugling . To the other two bookes , viz. The hope of peace , and Relatio Turbarum to the Inquisition : hee saith so little , but yet so vncharitably , as it well discouereth more enuie , ( of which he speaketh so much in the Preface ) then either sufficiencie , or modestie . For well he might haue left the approbation , or condemnation of the booke to the holy Inquisition , vnto the iudgement and censure of those woorthy persons ( whom his holines hath made presidents , and Iudges in such affaires ) and not haue arrogated the same by preuention vnto himselfe . But the poore man sawe well enough , that the acceptance thereof was not so vngratefull or hatefull vnto the wisedome of those Fathers , ( who proceede not ordinarily in such cases after his will , but maturely , with iudgement , iustice , and discretion ) and that no such censure or reprehension was likely to come from thence against the booke ; and therefore hee thought it good to beginne betime to play his part , least the Comedie should die for want of Actors . For the hope of peace , let them of iudgement , that haue read it , censure whether it be nothing but vanity & scurrility , or doth not rather open much bad dealing of the Archpriest , in those Letters . Now let vs come to the discourse of the stirrs begun at Wish : concerning which matters , as hee refers you to the 6. chapter of his Apologie , so to countermaunde him therein , we refer you to our relation , being more large and perspicuous . But ( saith hee ) in the sixt chapter of the Apologie , matters are set downe plainly , sincerely , with order and perspicuitie , without amplifications , or exaggerations , as in our discourse hapneth . To this wee retort the same in effect for our aunswer : that in our discourse , howsoeuer the method misliketh his Mastership , there is more sinceritie , more plaine dealing , & perspicuitie vsed , then in his Apologie , and not so much amplification and exaggeration as the matter it selfe required . Who now shall be iudge in this , whether this good Fa : or we say truest ? But ( saith hee ) wee haue this with approbation by Letters vnder the Priests owne handes and testimonie : Yea but ( say we ) this is but good Fa : Parsons owne saying , and to vs vnknowne , howsoeuer belieued . But to controll this vanitie , wee say that our relation was writ by the Priests themselues that liued in these garboyles , and are yet aliue , and readie to proue , what they haue writ . Yea but ( saith hee ) they be of the contrarie part , and partiall relaters . And who I pray you ( good Fa : ) were your informers ? were they not of the other side , and as partiall in theyr owne cause , as the other ? Besides , your informations were in fragments from this man , and that man by flying Letters ; in which it is probable men will speak the best for themselues , and excuse the worst ; which others will be aduised , how they doe in publishing things to the worlds view , that euery man may controll as they finde occasion . And it partly appeareth , that our friendes dealt somewhat more faithfully then this Fa : would haue you to thinke ; in that they omit no wordes , or circumstance , or action in the aduerse part , which might make shew of any excuse for thē : as appeareth in that this Fa : collecteth some matters thereby to excuse his friends intentions , euen out of the discourse it selfe , which might haue beene either omitted , or otherwise related , if our friends had studied falshoods , as he affirmeth . Furthermore , we haue testimonies of those proceedings by such , as were dealers in the composing of matters there , and heard both parties ; which this good Fa : wanteth . And for my selfe , I can say somewhat in that behalfe , both for the proofe of that discourse , as also the detecting of this Gentlemans shufflings in the setting downe of matters , ( as yee shall heereafter see ) hauing beene my selfe present , and a dealer with my poore indeuours to haue helpt forward , the composing of matters there , by which both hee , and you shal easily see ( if you will see ) where the truth goeth , and where the discredite will lie . And now to his first question : That if all had been true , that Fa : Weston had sought , or accepted the Agencie , how that odious consequence might be inferred : that , if they had preuayled heerein , by the same platforme they would haue gouerned the priest abroad . To this question : because the good Fa : will make himselfe ignorant in his owne plots , and policies , I will helpe him forth , to put him in minde thereof , that you may see a little into their dealings , and the cunning of theyr proceedings . First you must vnderstand ( as I imagine you will easily conceiue ) that no Statist in the worlde ( in which degree the Iesuits will giue place to none ) will openlie set forth to all mens view , the last end , and intentions of theyr workings , or plots : For that were to discouer their drifts to their opposers , & to procure preuention , which no man that intends a worke would willingly finde . Suppose then , that the Iesuits should haue had such an intention ( as I will easilie demonstrate them to haue had ) would you thinke them so simple ( beeing such exact polititians ) as to make known this theyr drift and intention vnto vs ? VVell then meanes they must finde fittest , and most conuenient for the secret compassing of this designe , that their policie might not presently be spied , before the matter were cock sure . Now let me but aske you in your reasonable setled iudgement without partialitie ; could there be a better meanes deuised , then first to begin in that place , where the grauest , and best deseruing Priests of our Country were in durance for Gods cause ; by the presence of whom , the very house was a Sion vnto our Country , and a Lanterne vnto all Catholicks abroad ? For why ; if once they had setled their gouernment there without checke , or controll , what Priest durst to haue gainsaid their dominion abroad , but straight way hee should haue had his mouth stopped with the voluntary submission of those graue priests , and designed Martyrs ? Which , how great a checke it would haue beene to any contradiction in that case , and how sufficient a reproofe vnto the contradictor , I leaue to euery indifferent man to iudge . And he which is not willing to conceiue heereof , let him but read the annales of the Primitiue Church , and he shall finde what authoritie the actions , and examples of Confessors in prison carried with the Christians in those daies : insomuch that what was done by them , was helde as inviolable , yea haynous to be contradicted of the Bp : himselfe , as may well appeare by the dissention in Affrica , about the receauing of some lapsed Christians by the Confessors , & examples of peace deliuered them , and the reiecting of the same by S. Cyprian & other Bishops : whereupon grew great garboyles , both in the Clergie , and Laïtie , with parts-taking , and running , and writing to Rome about the matter . But you will say , that although indeede this had beene a probable course , to haue attained vnto that scope : yet doth it not proue , that the Iesuits had any such intention , neyther is it likely they should goe about any such matter , beeing indeed odious in the sight of any indifferent man , as also Fa : Parsons heere confesseth . To this I aunswer , that not my words , but their owne actions , and words shall discouer their intentions . And by the way I request of you , but open eares , and indifferent iudgements to thinke , but what you shall see more then probable , yea euident , and iudge accordingly . Let not the conceit of a religious habite abuse your vnderstanding , where reason conuinceth the contrarie . The habite is not to be blamed if men abuse it , but rather the man to be cōdemned , that abuseth the habite . Wee iudge all those to be sheepe , which carrie vvoll on their backs : yet experience saith , that somtimes the fox clothes himselfe in the sheepeskinne . Shal we therefore cry out against the vvooll , or not rather chasten the fox , which abuset the pelt ? If then an exorbitant religious person be found , condemne not his habite : for that is innocent ; but correct his manners , which proceede not from his clothes , or profession , but his person : neither let your iudgments fall , where experience is too manifest : for that vvere but ouermuch simplicitie , and to giue place to all hypocrisies . Consider therefore two thinges , the religion with the habite , and the man inuested in both . The religion , & habite , challengeth reuerence , but the person , as he deserueth . He is a mad man , I thinke , which should deeme ambition , to be no ambition , because it is couered with ragges : so shall he be no lesse foolish , who thinketh a man to be no man , because he is a religious man. No no , they are men , and therefore may erre , & erroneous were the contrarie conceit , yea meere foolishnes . Wherefore , I request but indifferencie , to measure their intentions by their manifest actions , and open wordes ; and then if you finde not the spirit of a Monarchie to haue raigned amongst them in these their endeuours , blame me of rash iudgement , and no vnderstanding at all . First then ( as I haue manifested vnto you ) Wisbitch was the fittest place to assay this enterpise , and to lay the surest foundation of such intentions . Nowe would I but faine knowe , what other intention , then gouernment , & soueraigntie they could haue in that practise ? You will aunswere ( I dare say ) as this good Father doth , that they were requested vnto it : yea , and ouer-pressed too , by the importunitie of the rest , liuing in that place , and that Fa : Weston vnwillingly accepted therof , yea also refused to be any Superiour , but onely a spirituall directer vnto the rest , and therfore reiected all names of superioritie . Oh Sir , let me come a little neerer vnto you : you may not run away with this faire smooth tale ; there is more in the winde then so . I pray you good Fa : if dominion were not heereby affected in your fellowes , how chaunced it , that your subiect Fa : Weston , when hee was scarce well warme in the house , at his first comming thether , had dealing secretlie vnderhand for suffrages to get the gouernment of the rest ? If you will not belieue there was any such matter , let them speake which gaue their names , and your subiect Ma. Pond the Collector : let Ma. Wigs ghost come in against you , who perceiuing the drift thereof , after he had giuen his name , called to see the paper againe , and tare it in peeces , and so ouerthrew that first practise . What els could this shewe , but an affectation of rule and gouernment ? But you wil say to coūtermaund this illation , that Fa : Weston beeing named afterwards one of the three , which should gouerne the rest , vtterly refused it , as a thing against his institute and order , which argueth that he affected no such matter . Alas , hee should haue had copartners , which is no small checke to soueraigntie , ioyned with ambition : and therefore refused not the thing , but the manner of the thing , not suting his humour . Yea , say you , these are but wordes : vvhat proofe , or iudgements haue you , to drawe you into this conceite ? Marry sir I haue his owne actions sithence , in the last garboyle , more then manifesting his former intentions , wherein he not onely sought the soueraignty , but maintained it with such violence , that no man might alter , or moue him to let fall those desperate attempts , begun with the scandall of all the world . Witnesse this , a Gentleman or two that came vnto him vpon their knees , intreating him with great griefe of mind , to respect the generall scandall arising by those proceedings , and to forgoe and reiect that course ; whom he answered in peremptorie manner , wishing them to content themselues , for that it was gone further , then could be recalled : & that shortly it should be seene confirmed vnder hands , and seales . Witnes this the directions giuen by his Prouinciall Fa : Garnet , that he should not begin the separation , but suffer his associats first to begin , that the enuie ( so it pleased him to say ) might not fall vpon him , but his followers . Witnesse his ouermuch hast in beginning the separation himselfe , contrary to his directions ; which shewed ouer-much desire of rule . Witnes his backwardnes to be drawne to any indifferent composition , beeing moued thereunto by such , as dealt about the composing of such stirres ; of which my selfe can and will witnes vppon my oath . Witnes his resisting of his owne Superiour , beeing commaunded by him to surcease : which commaundement he refused to obey , affirming that he was not bound therein to obey him , vntill such time , as his owne associats beganne to draw backe from him , and mislike him therein : Let Ma : Mush , and Ma : Dudley testifie this point , and the rest there present . If all these proceedings so euident , doe not manifest both his , and their desire , of ruling their brethren , iudge you . But you will say , that this affectation of rule , if it were affected by him , was not generall ouer all in the house , but only ouer some voluntaries , who chose willingly to submit thēselues vnto his direction , and not to inforce any to submit themselues . To this I aunswer you , that in this lay more subtiltie , and craft , then you will seeme to perceiue . Here indeed was couched the chiefest policie , and cunning of their plot , and intention . For although they made shewe onely of a voluntarie retire , leauing the rest to themselues , yet had they so involued them with calumniations , and slaunders , ( which is a common ground of the Iesuits building ) that , without manifest note of infamie , they could not , but submit their necks vnto the Iesuits new gouernment ; which you shal easily perceiue , if you but consider all circūstances . For before they had made their separatiō , they gaue out many rumors of haynous offences , practised in that house without specifying any particuler person . And whē they burst out into their separation , they published these causes in excuse of their fact ; sct : propter scandala , siue peccata mortalia , &c. for scandals , & mortall sins cōmitted , or like to happen amongst thē , they were enforced vnto that separation , & retyre of gouernment . Now would I but aske of you this one question ; VVhen such things are spred of a communitie , or house in generall , and thereuppon a retyred life prescribed , and vndertaken of some and refused of others , whom you would iudge in your conceit , like to be those disordered companions , amongst whom such enormities were frequent ? I doubt not but you will presently suppose the refusing part , to be of that bad disposition : for that louing libertie , they refused to submit themselues to discipline . This I assure my selfe you would aunswer , vvithout scruple ; and to confirme this to be so , euen when these things fell out first , it so hapned , the generall voyce condemning the refusing part vpon the foresaid grounds . Iudge now ( I beseech you ) whether this was not a pretie policie to haue enforced the rest to submit themselues , being drawne within these streights by this plot : and then had the breach been made , and way to the sequell we speake of . But you wil yet say , that happily such disorders were in the house , yea , and amongst those men also , as they had not onely reason , but were in a sort constrained vnto that separation . To this I aunswer : first that such a separation from Cōmunion at the table , and at diuine offices vpon such reasons , is not verie far from Donatus the Arch-hereticks case , who at the first vpon the like reasons , refused ( as hee said ) to communicate with other Bishops of Affrica . Secondly , I say , that if such things had beene , yet were they bound in conscience to haue concealed them , because they were secret , and vnknowne abroade , as I appeale vnto all the Catholicks of England for proofe hereof , whether any fame of such matters were heard , before the beginning of this ambitious seperation . Thirdly , I answer , that of mine own knowledge , being present at the ripping vp of these matters , generall leaue was giuen by the vnited part vnto the separated , to say what they could , & accuse whom they could of any such crime , sub pena talionis , and they would admit any competent or indifferent iudge , to haue the hearing & censuring of the delinquents ; and they refused to ioyne any such issue vvith them . Furthermore , my selfe being present , and witnes vnto all this , I went vnto Fa : Weston , and asked him , if hee would accuse any man in particuler , and he refused : wheruppon I told him , that hee , and the rest of his company , were then bound , to cleere them of such iniust suspicions ; which if they would doe , either by word before witnesse , or vnder their hands , the refusing part would suffer them , to goe forwards with their course begun , which if they refused to doe , beeing in conscience bound thereto , ( as I told him my opinion was they were ) then could not they suffer them to proceed in that maner , vnlesse they would willingly vndergo such infamie , as thereby redounded vnto thē , which none ( vnlesse they were cruell to themselues ) would permit . But all was in vaine ; hee refused & reiected all offers , without regard to my motion . By this you may see how guiltie these poore men were of such crimes imputed vnto them , & how iniuriously forsooth the Iesuits were charged with a purpose and policy , to compasse a monarchiall dominion , and gouernment ouer them . And yet will the Iesuits go about ( as Fa : Weston then did vnto me ) to defend that no wrong heereby was doone vnto any , in that no man was named in particuler . A cunning policie ( which yet is common vnto the Iesuits ) to spread generall suspicions , and infamies abroad ; and when they come to the touch , to excuse thēselues by certaine generalities . Did they not so in the matter of schisme , first spread the infamie , and then excuse themselues , because no man was named in particuler . Howsoeuer this shift may seeme cunning , yet I am sure no man of iudgement , or reason , wil think it very honest . But saith Fa : Parsons , all that should haue been in Fa : Weston , was but by way of direction , not by way of commaund , or superioritie . First , if it were onely so , then would I aske you , why he should so earnestly affect to direct others ? had hee not enough to direct himselfe , but he must needes intrude vppon his brethren ? Or must he needes thinke , that all the rest were either so simple men , or imperfect persons , as that none of thē could direct themselues in spirituall matters , without the help of a Iesuite ? What arrogancie is this ? If he obiect their congregations in Italy , Spayne , and els where , vnto which Cardinals , and great men resort : I aunswer , that there is no necessitie , to inferre an insufficiencie in those parties , to direct themselues , or others , but rather a voluntary acceptance of such occasions , to exercise themselues in those places which they might else where performe , if it pleased them ? But for a Iesuit to challenge that peculiar prerogatiue vnto himselfe , is not tolerable . And yet that this was more then arrogating a direction of others , yea a formall dominion & gouernment ouer them , is not onely manifest , by what we haue heere before reheased ; but also by the very rules of this affected institution , or Agencie . For amongst others , one rule was , that matters of greater weight should be censured by common Suffrages , but those matters of lesse moment , by the Agent himselfe . And to iudge which matters were of great moment , and which of small ; that should be in Ma : Agent to determine . VVhat greater priuiledge can a superiour haue , then to determine of matters , what they be , and how they shall be ordered ? If this be not to giue superioritie and gouernment , I must confesse my wit is but shallow . For I would but aske you what he might not doe by authoritie giuen him by this rule within the compasse of that societie , or brother-hood ? or what partialitie might he not vse towards his affected pupils , and rigour towards his not well affectionated by this rule ; sith the power was in him to iudge what matters were of moment , or not of moment , and so to draw within his own managing what delinquents hee would , and smother vp theyr crimes in corners , and bring to publique barre what pettie matter he list , if the partie delinquent were not of his affectionated ? VVould any man require more soueraignty then this , to bring all men vnder his check and controle ? Be iudges heerein with indifferencie I beseech you . But saith Fa : Parsons , is it likely that Fa : Weston , a man of those parts , and looking euery day for martyrdome , & one ( as you say ) who had beene Prouinciall for the time in England , should seeke so greedily for so poore a preferment , as to be seruaunt and Agent to a few of his fellow prisoners ? I confesse there was no reason he should seeke it ; but that hee did seeke it , let the reasons alledged shew the truth . And for his hauing beene Prouinciall , it more confirmeth the matter to such , as know the natures of the Iesuits : who hauing once beene Gouernours , loue not to be depriued of their soueraigntie in no sauce . This by experience is best knowne to them that haue liued amongst them . Witnes all those that liued in the time of the expulsions of Fa : Alphonso Agazara , Fa : Creswell , Fa : Hieronimo Fierouante , out of the gouernment of the Romane Colledge , how heauily , and vnwillingly they tooke their depriuations . Of which number one of them making a speech at his departure vnto the scholers , vsed these words : Decedendum est , immó cras decedendum , and burst out so into teares , that he could hardly proceed in his speech . Witnes this Fa : Parsons shufling in Paris , ( when he came out of England from his Prouincialship ) to get himselfe deliuered from subiection , to the Rector of their Colledge there . Now would I request the indifferent reader , to iudge , whether these practises in Wisbich were ambitious or not ; & whether the vnited Priests had not reasō to stand out , & controle such exorbitant and peeuish insultations , which were acted with such a shew of hipocrisie on fa : Westons behalf , as it hath made me often to wonder at his follies & puritane ostentations . A hobby-horse in time of Christmas , went to his hart forsooth , the publike & bitter reprehensiō whereof , this father will haue to be such zeale of vertue . I surely think he would also haue found fault at a May-pole in Whitsontide ; if this be not a right imitation of puritanizme , let the world iudge . And yet if you knew as much as I doe ; you would scarse excuse it from grosse ostentation and hypocrisie ; especially if you vnderstood how frequent such showes of hobby-horses , and mountebankes &c. are with them in their Colledges in Rome . Witnes this all such as haue liued there , especially in Fa : Hieronimo Fierouante his time . Add to this Fa : Westons eating but one meale a day , so long as there was hope of his Agencie ; but when his hopes were frustrate , he could finde a stomack to eate 3. meales ordinarily in one day , and those sound ones too . As for Fa : Parsons insulting vpon Ma : Bluets speech to Fa : Weston , concerning th' vse of Sacraments , and his diuers comments there-vpon ; It is but the superfluitie of his owne vanity . Ma : Bluets speech was both graue , and iudiciall in any reasonable mans iudgement . For if the sacrament , and good counsell of the Confessarins , would not , or could not reforme a Priest liuing in prison for conscience , & Religion ; how should we thinke that Ma : Westons Agencie was like to effect it ? vvhere-vnto no man could be tyed in these times by force , but of free will , & so might refuse those remedies at his pleasure ; his Agencie hauing neyther power of life nor death , imprisonment , nor chaines , and therefore not to be compared ( as wise Ma : Parsons seemeth he would haue it ) with a common wealth or publique authority , where iustice may be executed in foro contentioso . But you will yet happily call me to reckoning further for my first assertion ; wherein I affirmed , that the Iesuits intended a generall dominion ouer all the priests of England , by their attempt at Wisbich , for the truth of which assertion , although I haue alreadie giuen you sufficient reason , yet wil I further satisfie you heerein by obseruation of that which hath followed since . You know ( I suppose ) how the Priests were about a Sodalitie amongst themselues , which was chiefly intended ( as by the rules thereof you may gather ) for the prouision of such as came newly , and rawly ouer : for the disposing of them abroad to their better securitie ; for the prouision of prisoners in durance ; for the better reliefe to Cath : abroade in matters spirituall ; for the particuler good of euery priest ; and for the checking of some exorbitant , and vnnaturall courses , taken by the Iesuits against their Prince and Country : to abolish such medlings in those affaires , as impertinent to our function , and vocation , and to strengthen and inable our selues in these matters by a mutuall vnion : this I say , was the end of our sodalitie , which we imparted vnto the Iesuits , that they should see our sinceritie and honesty in those proceedings : but we were too sincere , and plaine , to deale with such craftie crowders ; for they well perceiued , that this course would discouer much of their iuglings in matter of state , & also put an euerlasting blocke , or bulwarke against their intended superioritie . So that although openly they seemed to like of the course , ( because for shame they durst do none other ) yet they thought it high time to worke some cunning meanes to delude our indeuours . Whereupon they secretly addressed Ma : Standish , ( one that had been most forward for the association , ( but a secret Traytor vnto all the rest ) vnto Rome , and there by the working of Fa : Parsons , he was brought before the Pope , as hauing great affaires , concerning the Clergie of our Countrie . Wherein an oration furtiue , vniustly , and vntruly , in the names of all the Priests of our Countrie , he desired a gouernment , and subordination . Which false office being by him performed , Fa : Parsons himselfe busily folowed the matter , with many vntrue suggestions vnto his holines , of great discord betweene the Priests , and Catholicks in England , and we wot not what : for the suppressing and reformation whereof , some subordination & gouernment was forsooth necessary . Vpon these , and many other such like vntrue suggestions , his holines referred ( as sithence wee haue learned ) the whole disposition of this affaire , vnto Cardinall Caietane theyr Protector . Whereby Fa : Parsons had in effect as much as he desired , or could haue wished . For the Cardinall euer stood at the Iesuits direction in all matters concerning our affaires , as all the world knoweth . Thus vvas Ma : Blackwell , by the Card : commaundement , and through Fa : Parsons practicall deuises , inuested in his authoritie ; a man wholy prostrated at the feete of Fa : Garnet , and standing meerely at his deuotions , and directions in all matters of moment , as by all his violent courses against vs in their behalfe , the world may see . But to manifest this point more palpably vnto you , that you may see , wee speake not of passion or emulation against the Iesuits , but directly , as the truth is . In the instructions sent vnto the Archpriest concerning the execution of his office , one and the chiefest prouiso , was that hee should in all matters of weight , be aduised by the Prouinciall of the Iesuits Fa : Garnet . Doe but thinke hereby how matters were like to be managed heere , when all the controuersie was onely betweene vs the seculer Priests , and the Iesuits , & not between Priests and Catholicks , ( as falsly Fa : Parsons suggested ) and that our Archpriest must be taught by the Iesuits Prouinciall what he shall doe in any matter of moment . Iudge indifferently I beseech you , whether this was not a trick to keep the managing of all matters in their owne handes ; and hold the Priests in slauerie and subiection vnto them . Which because they saw by experience they could not obtaine imediatly to themselues , they deuised to procure it more cunningly by a third person , hauing a Secular priest in a corner wholie depending vppon them . So that our superiour beeing to be directed by their superiour , all the soueraigntie & gouernment , should indeed haue rested in the Iesuits . Adde vnto this fa : Garnets owne words , deliuered before Ma : Mush , & Ma : Dudley , when they came vnto him about the appeasing of the broyles in Wisbich , vnto whom shewing himselfe discontented , that they had not cōcurred to the confirming of fa : Westons Agencie , he vsed these or the like words to this effect ; That hee saw no reason why the priests in England , should not as well be gouerned by the Iesuits here , as they were , and had beene in the Colledges beyond the Seas . Now let any man that is not ouermuch blinded with affection towards the Iesuits , ( of which sort I know there be many , who will belieue nothing that maketh against any of thē ) indifferently iudge , whether all their indeuours and intentions from the beginning , were not to attaine vnto a monarchiall gouernment ouer the Clergie of England . And yet this inference seemed strange vnto good Fa : Parsons . Beleeue me , I thinke he so much presumes vpon his wit , and policies together , that he thinketh he may walke in a Net , and not be seene . But softly good Fa : other men haue eyes aswell as your selfe , and can discerne such grosse colours , especiallie when the sunne shineth so cleerely . But yet before I proceed any further , I cannot let passe an admirable shew of a detracting spirit in Fa : Parsons , who in the close of his quipping , & carping against the foresaid discourse of the stirrs raised at Wisbich , is not ashamed to note certaine particuler accusations , as whoredome , drunkennesse , dycing , pewter stolne , which Mary the maide found in ones Chamber , &c. spoken of in the foresaid Relation . Which he so cunningly shuffleth vp , and leaueth hanging so suspiciously , as if they were things euident without controle , condemning the parties accused . Whereas in the aforesaid discourse , and place , vvhere they are deliuered , as accusations by his faction , they are so apparantly , and inuincibly confuted , as that I admire much at the mans brasen forehead , that he durst so palpably lay open his follies , if not his malice . Touching the pewter stolne , that matter was publiquelie conuinced for a notorious calumnie before Ma : Mush , and Ma : Dudley , with great shame and checke to his Pupill Ma : Pond , who vrged the matter against Ma. Potter , and others . So that S. Paules sentence brought by himselfe , may iustlie be retorted against him , set . Insipientia eius manifesta erit omnibus . I pray God in place of insipientia , I may not iustly say malitia . By this time we are come vnto the Memoriall giuen vp in Rome against the Iesuits , by one Fisher , which is printed in the end of the foresaid Discourse of Wisbich : and at which this honest Father seemeth much agreeued , taxing the publishers of it with excommunication , and the Memoriall it selfe as most false and calumnious by Fishers owne deposition , &c. As concerning this Memoriall , all men know that it was generally published heere in England by the Iesuits themselues , at vvhat time they sought for suffrages abroad in theyr owne behalfe against it . Now therefore , if any excommunication or censure depend thereuppon , not the Printers , but the Iesuits , father Garnet , and others , the first publishers thereof , are within that compasse . For I hope Fa : Parsons is not so simple a Canonist , or Casuist , but that he knoweth , that when any report is famous and already publick to the world , he that shall afterward speake or write thereof , incurreth not the offence of a Detractor , or spreader of calumnies , nor by consequence any censure of the Church . For if that were so , then could no Historiographer relate the euill actions of any Ecclesiasticall person , though neuer so pertinent and necessarie to his historie . Which is contrary to the practise of all Writers , both in prophane and Ecclesiasticall stories : yea the old Fathers themselues , as S. Ierome , Cassian , S. Bernard , and others . Secondly , the printing of those thinges , was but the bare setting downe onely of such accusations , as were spred abroad by themselues , without either glosse or comment vppon them , but left indifferent , as themselues published them , vnknown to vs certainly , whether any such matter was deliuered vp against them , but by their owne reports . Thirdly , that they are printed , as giuen vp by some English residing in Flaunders , is but their owne report heere : for I will testifie vpon my oath , & so will diuers others also , that they layde the burden thereof vpon certaine there resident , as Ma. D. Gifford , Ma. Char. Paget , and others . Fourthly , that it was also reported here by some of themselues and their fauorits ( of which report I am also an eare-witnes ) that Fisher should confesse , that himselfe not onely penned the foresaid Memoriall , but also collected diuers of the accusations . Which report they gaue out , when they were pressed with the iniurie done to D. Gifford , to lay the matter from him . Somtimes also they would report , that the instructions were giuen by some in England . So various and vnconstant they were in their reports at that time , as vnsetled ( it seemed ) in their opinions thereof . Now whereas Fa : Parsons saith , that by Fishers examination , and deposition , as also by Letters of the Assistants , and diuers other , the matters were prooued meere slaunders and vntruths . To the first I aunswer , that Fisher being suiiuris , at libertie , ( according to this Fa : owne report ) exhibited this Memoriall into the Court against them as true accusations , but his denials thereof were at such times as he was imprisoned , where happily for feare of torture , he might be drawne to say or denie any thing , to procure thereby his libertie and safety . Add to this Fa : Parsons own words , spoken in the hearing of diuers scholers in Rome , concerning the said Fishers examination , viz. that he thought in his conscience the fellow lied in many things . If this be true , and that Fa : Parsons may not be accounted a lyar heerein , then iudge you whether the fellow was not drawne to say any thing through perswasions & feare together , sith that in this good fa : opinion , yea and conscience , many of his depositions were vntrue . Besides consider the Fa : sinceritie , in that hee is content heere to bring his deposition and examination , be it what it shal be , to be a bulwarke , and conuincing testimonie in the behalfe of himselfe , and his fellowes innocencie . But this is but an ordinary trick with him , and his complices : that euery man , be he neuer so honest , if he once speake against a Iesuit , must be esteemed a bad man , and a suspected companion ; mary if hee run along with them in their courses , let him be neuer so lewd a varlet , he shal be reputed for most honest . Witnes this , Tomson , Coulson , Tunsteed , and many others of that rable which I could name . Moreouer , to confirme a very probable opinion of some iugling with this poore man , Fisher in his examinations : Fa : Parsons ( as himselfe affirmeth ) put him into very good apparell , being but in ragges before , and gaue him money in his purse , and dismissed him his troubles with great shew of kindnes , as they can witnes , who were then in Rome . Iudge you but what suspitions this kinde and ouer-kind dealing of Fa : Parsons , with this lewd companion ( as he often tearmeth him ) may giue to the world of bad dealing in his examinations , and depositions . Seldome I think shall you finde a man that will performe such extraordinary effects of loue and kindnes towards one , that came about such an hatefull office , as to informe in publique and open Court against him : neither can I yet be induced to think Fa : Parsons charity so superaboundant towards his enemies , by any former example in his proceedings . But letting Fishers action passe , and the rather because he is about , as I heare , to speake for himselfe : I will come a little nearer vnto him , and canuase his other testimonies of the assistants and other letters . First , what letters the assistants writ concerning that memoriall , I know not , onely I had the view of one writ by Ma : Doctor Bauand , in their behalfe , which was sent abroad into the Country together with the memoriall . Which letter did not onely free the Iesuits , from matters imputed vnto them in the said memoriall , but also concerning those stirres in Wisbich , and whatsoeuer in England layed vnto their charge . Vnto which generall , and free example , many were vrged to subscribe ; and diuers did it diuersly : some generally freeing thē of all matters , others excusing themselues ; onely as vnguilty of the concurring to the fore-said accusations . But what verity or iustice was in the fore-said letters excusatorie , giue me leaue a little to search . First , you shall vnderstand , that no one man liuing in England , could in conscience write such a generall excusing letter , neither could any generally without exceptions subscribe thereto ( as but few generally did or had done , when the said letters came to my hands . For the most part of the subscribers vsed the subscription of the 2. classe ( as I remember ) viz : Dicti memorialis conscius non fui , nec habeo que accusem : Although some were drawne by fauours , feares , or perswasions , to subscribe generally vnto the letter ; which thing , that neither the vvriter Ma : Doctor Bauand , nor subscribers in conscience could doe , I will manifestly shew you . I suppose you will easily vnderstand this one generality ; that no man may iustly in conscience hinder publique iustice , whereby an innocent party may be oppressed and vniustly vexed . This then being a iust and most true ground , no such generall testimonie could be giuen in the behalfe of the Iesuits , to free them from all such accusations . For what one man in England , could tell whether any Iesuite in England had wronged any particuler person , Priest , or Catholique , or were faulty in any the fore-said obiections or no ? If then no one man could be certaine of this ; how could any in conscience giue so generall a testimonie in their behalfes , sith therby he exposeth himselfe at the least to probability of wronging some innocent or other , that might haue iust accusations against the Iesuits , or some of them , in that by the credite of such a generall patronizing example , fortified with testimonies , and subscriptions of priests , the hearing of a iust cause might be deferred , delayed , or denied ? And yet who knoweth not that an affirmatiue testimonie sufficientlie proued , de iure is auaileable to ouerthrow , & controle 20. negatiues . As for example : if I will say that such a man hath defamed me , and bring 2. or 3. sufficient witnesses , & his owne words , wrytings , or actions , shall they not conuince against an hundred , that shall denie the same in all law and iustice in the world ? sith that a wrong may be done in the sight , or hearing of 2. or 3. of the which an hundred may otherwise be ignorant , and yet deeme the contrarie , eyther through good opinion , and conceite of the parties offending ( as happened in this case ) or deluded by some other circumstance , seemed probable to them . Seeing then that this might happen in this affaire ( as I will shew it hath ) neither could Ma : Doctor Bauand write such a generall letter , to free them from all such imputations ; nor any other subscribe generally thereto . For no man may giue witnes in any thing more then he hath of knowledge , and is able to depose . But no one man in England was able to depose , that no such crimes imputed , were in any Iesuit liuing in England ; because he could not be priuie to all , and euery action of theirs , and euery one of them : therefore no man in England could so generally and peremptorily free them frō all such matters obiected against them . Consider now I beseech you , how rash Ma. Doctor Bauand was in writing this generall testimonie : as also the other Assistants ( of whom Fa : Parsons heere speaketh , if they did the like , as this Doctor did ) and how vnaduised those Priests were , who generally subscribed without any limitation at all . And this Position of ours , shall more euidently appeare in the examination of the particuler accusations , layd vnto theyr charge ; where we shall shew you most euidently , that many things were , & are most true , whatsoeuer the parties were , that exhibited , & framed the Memoriall against thē . And this I wil performe , not because I am ouer-willing to enter into other mens actions , or to take the burden of others vpon my back : but leauing euery man to aunswer for his owne actions , I will onely set downe some proofes of certaine particulers , which my selfe know , & wil auouch before any Iudge in the world , that all men may see how this mans hastie posting ouer these matters , maketh more shew of cōfidence , then there is cause a parte rei , and that theyr actions haue beene , and are such , as cannot be iustified , either in law , or conscience . But first concerning the subscriptions vnto Doctor Bauands letter : I remember there were three testimonies of 3. Priests woorthy to be heard , which gaue no such glosing prayse vnto the Iesuits actions , as freeing them from all such imputations , but manifestly insinuating the contrarie . Marie for ought I could heare , theyr testimonies were neuer presented in Rome , or if they were , I see no reason , why they should not haue taken so much effect , as eyther to be belieued , or farther examined ; neither of which followed as I trow . The reason perhaps was , because two of the aforesaid Priests dealt plainly and charitably with them in particuler letters , after their subscriptions making Fa : Garnet acquainted with such things , as were amisse both in them , and theyr followers , which discontented diuers . Now to the particulers of the Memoriall . The first paragraph cited by fa : Parsons , is this . They holde no doctrine to be Catholicke and sound , that commeth not frō themselues , no dispensation auaileable , that is not graunted by them : and ( which ) is worse , they haue beaten into the heads of most , that the masse is not rightly celebrated by any , but a Iesuit . Because fa : Parsons sayth no more vnto this point , but only asketh a question : whether we belieue this to be true . I will note some things not far vnlike vnto these , wherby you may gesse the probabilitie of thē . At what time Maister Iohn Gerard liued in the East parts of England , such fame , and singuler respect was had of him , because he was a Iesuit , ( for no other parts in this kinde could make him famous , whose talents are known to be far inferiour to the most of his time , as Ma. Oldcorne a Iesuit likewise reported vnto a Priest ) as that vvhen any case of difficultie came in question to be resolued in those parts , it was scant currant , vntill Ma. Gerards sentence had passed in the matter . And sometimes it happened , that when Ma. Blunt ( now a Iesuit , but then a secular Priest onely ) had resolued a case ; there wanted not such , as would make stand thereat , vntill Ma. Gerards opinion was demaunded therein . Vpon what ground these fantasticall conceits should arise , I know not , vnlesse it were some suggested opinions , that nothing vvas currant , which had not vigor from a Iesuits determination . For otherwise I thinke there be many , who know that there is so great difference betwixt Ma. Blunt , and Ma. Gerard , in matters of learning , as Ma. Blunt might well be a Reader in Diuinitie , where Ma. Gerard were fit to be a scholer . And as for dispensations graunted by any Priest in any case whatsoeuer , it hath beene a common practise amongst the Iesuits , and theyr followers , to call such things in question , whether the priests ( for example ) had any such authoritie : yea , sometimes giuing suspitious doubts abroad , whether they haue any faculties at all , or not . This hath happened so often , & onely towards such , whom they haue had some auersion from ; that I suppose few to be ignorant thereof . Witnesse theyr dealing with Ma. Clarke at his first comming ouer , & some others since the last stirrs in Rome . VVitnesse also to this poynt , theyr drawing of diuers matters within the compasse of particuler faculties , and extraordinary dispensations , which are proper to all pastors in generall : As for example , to giue leaue to eate white meats in Lent , or at other times , to dispence with such as haue reasonable cause for fasting . VVhich cases they had drawn vnto themselues , making Priests to seeke for theyr faculties yeerely at theyr hands , when as in very deede , this faculty belongeth vnto the Priests , ex ordinaria potestate , quatenus sunt pastores , and not to the Iesuits , but extraordinarily onely , by way of indulgence , as coadiutors vnto vs , as happeneth in all other exemptions or faculties which they possesse . As touching the third part of the first Paragraffe : that it is beaten into the heads of diuers , that Masse is not rightly sayd , but of a Iesuit : sure I am , and I thinke all the world knoweth it to be true , that they haue such tricks , and pollicies to put some such extraordinarie conceits into Catholicks heads , that I see not , but in some part this assertion may be verified . For they haue theyr men , and followers or precursors in places where they come , who must suggest it for a strange and extraordinarie matter to be present at theyr Masses ; and that euery Cath : that shall come vnto any of them to confesse , & communicate , shall haue ( I know not what ) plenatie indulgences for the first time . Let but the indifferent Reader iudge , whether this kinde of practise be not a prety Iesuiticall tricke , to suggest such strange conceits of them , and theyr administrations of Sacraments , or saying of Masses aboue others . And whether they haue any such extraordinary indulgences , or no graunted vnto them , I know not . But this I am sure , that if there be any such , it sauoureth somewhat of too much pollicie , as thereby to draw a greater opinion of men towards them then to others . VVhich might giue sufficient occasion to suspect the verity of any such peculier graunt vnto thē from the Sea Apostolicke . Yet this must be more then petie-treason , to call any faculty of theyrs into question , though great reason may moue me thereto , which in them to do by others , must be accounted but a religious care , and prouidence to auoyd imposture . I might heere also alledge the seditious Treatise of Wiseman , called The three farwells , tending to no other end , but to draw mens conceits wholy to this one point , that nothing is sufficiently done , which proceedeth not from a Iesuit , or such an one as is gouerned in all things by them . But because this is more particulerly intreated of in the late booke of Quodlibets , writ by Ma. Watson , I refer the Reader thether . Now will I leaue you to iudge , whether wee haue not some cause to belieue the accusations of Fisher , ( if the Memoriall was of his deuise ) in part to be true , and not so voyd of ground , or reason as Ma. Parsons would haue you beleeue . But to proceed yet farther with this confident Fa : in his own cause . Perhaps hee thinketh euery bare assertion that comes from his Mastership should be had , as an Oracle with all men , though otherwise neuer so absurd and vntrue . Howbeit , let vs track him in his folly , and see what hee can say to the Accusations following . No Iesuit goeth to visite anie in England , or trauaileth from one place to another , but he is richly apparelled , and attended on with a great traine of seruants , as if hee were a Baron or an Earle . This paragraph also our good Fa : shufleth off with an interrogation , sct : vvhether in our conscience this be true ? Would you not think by this kinde of confident ostentation in Ma : Parsons ; that this imputation were more then sottish , yea malitious without all ground , or showe of ground in the world ? Yet if by some examples I doe not manifestly shew this , to be grounded vpon some true , and reall experience ; beleeue me not in the rest . First I will but referre you vnto all the Priests & Cath : that liued in England in Fa : Hawoods time of liberty , and knew him , and his manners , and fashions well : and if they doe not assure you that his port , and carriage was more Baronlike , then priestlike , all the world will condemne them for most partiall , and impudent deniers of the truth . Was he not wont to ride vp , and downe the Country in his Coach ? had he not both seruants , and priests attendants that did hang on his sleeue in great numbers ? did he not indict Counsels , make , and abrogate lawes ? vvas not his pompe such , as the places where he came seemed petie-Courts by his presence , his traine , and followers ? See whether heere be not one notable example of excesse , at which Fa : Parsons himselfe was wont to carpe , there being emulation betweene them about his superiority , and the others exemption . Againe , for present I referre you vnto Fa : Garnets pompe , and expences , of which I haue heard some honest priests ( who haue beene much with him ) report that he cannot spend lesse then 500. pound by the yeere . But wee will not much stand vpon his pompe or expences , because being prouinciall of his order , he will claime a prelacie , and therefore more honour , and more pompe , although our times , and case ( well considered , ) will scant tolerate such excesse . But let vs come , I pray you , vnto some priuate men of their order , and his subiects . The mighty , and extraordinarie excesse of Ma : Iohn Gerard hath beene such , and so notorious , that I suppose few priests ( besides other Cath : ) to be ignorant thereof . His apparrell at one time hath beene valued at a higher rate then I will for shame speake of , which he hath had in store , as it hath been reported by such , as were well acquainted there-with ; his church stuffe was worth no lesse then 200. marks , and the last time he was taken , losing but such stuffe , as was onely portable , I referre me to the officers , that seazed thereon for the value thereof ; his horses were many , and of no small price . My selfe haue knowne him to haue two Geldings in a Gentlemans stable at 30. pound a Gelding , besides others else-where , and horses of good vse . S. Ambrose in times of necessity would breake Chalices , and other precious vessels of the Church , to relieue the wants of poore Christians , but these men in the great afflictions , miseries , & wants of afflicted poore Cath : may possesse not onely superaboundance of Church stuffe , but also great excesse of apparell , horses , iewels ; et quid non ? Whilest others starue in prison , and abroad without scruple of conscience , and this quia Dominus opus habet . You will imagine that the expences of this man could not be very small ; that was thus richly furnished : and I beleeue as much , and for experience thereof , I will set downe his expences , during his imprisonment in the Clincke , well knowne to diuers that liued there with him , by which you may gesse at the rest . During his being there in durance ( liuing as a close prisoner in shew , though with more fauour , then any other ) howsoeuer the matter hapned ( which we will not wrest vnto the worst sence , as Ma : Parsons dealeth with vs ) he kept a priuate Table , continually with great store of dainties , & much resort daily . Besides , he payed his ordinary commons at the common table , and chamber rent : let them which haue liued in the Clinck , but iudge what this would come vnto in the yeare . But he will say that the company resorting vnto him , prouided the meates and wines : Be it so , that we may beleeue him in this ( which is more credit , then we owe him , ) yet the excesse was no one iot the lesse , & continuall . Which I think any man of iudgement will imagine , that he might haue ( in some good portion at the least ) imployed better , and with more merit , and edification . But that you may not think this to haue beene the vttermost of his excesse , and so excuse him as aboue ; you shall vnderstand that he ordinarily kept his Geldings in towne , and his man , which I suppose to be some round charge vnto him . He also so wrought the matter , that he rode into the Country at his pleasure , and returned : which I thinke you will suppose cost his purse well in bribes to such , as were his Keepers , if to no other . He also maintained two houses in the towne , with seruants in them , and not this without great expences , I weene . Now if you can spell , put all this together , and iudge what it might cost this Gentleman by the yeare , whilst he liued in Durance , and by that gesse at his expences abroad , of the which there want not diuers , who can sufficiently informe you . Sure I am , that such as liued with him in the Clincke , were of opinion , that he could not maintaine all this , I haue spoken of , vnder 400. or 500. pounds by the yeare : See the pompe of a young Baronet at the least . I may not omit Ma : Oldcorne , though but a petty Iesuit in this kinde ; I know that his apparrell is seldome lesse worth , then 30. or 40 pound . Hee is alwaies extraordinarily well prouided for horses , and those of the best . An honest Gentleman , and one whom I think you will iudge to be no lyer , ( besides that he is not euill affected towards the Iesuits , ) told me that he had 8. good Geldings at one time . I could alleadge you diuers other examples in particuler of their excesse ; but I esteeme it very needlesse , to spend time in a matter so euident to the world . But at all aduentures , I wish that euery 5. of our ordinary brethren , had but as much to maintaine them yeerely , as an ordinary Iesuit commonly spendeth by the yeere . As for their traine , few of them are vnwayted vpon , wheresoeuer they goe ; which ordinarily is but to places of account , where their entertainment may be good , and with the best . This is a thing so vsuall , that all the Cath : in England of any account , as I suppose , do both see , & know it well . And such as haue heeretofore been secular priests , and were then wont to goe on foot sometimes , & visit poore people willingly , to relieue and comfort them : becōming afterwards Iesuits , haue beene so a cockhorse , that it must be thought no small fauour to be worthy of their presence , and that not without their attendants , & other ceremonies ; Witnes this Ma : Bancks , Ma : Blunt , and others now Iesuits . They neuer send one Scholler out of England , to the Colledge of Doway , to st●●●y there , &c. Nay , they haue laboured by all meanes vtterly to dissolue it . After his accustomed manner , he asketh vs , whether this be true , and referreth vs to the President , and bookes of the Colledge . But by his leaue , whatsoeuer he may coyne out of the Colledge bookes , and father vpon the President ; hee must giue vs leaue by the effects to iudge the cause , and intention . Wee know that they neuer haue beene willing to send any vnto Doway , that had anie maintenance of his owne to liue on , but haue alwayes perswaded them to Saint Odemars . And this I can witnes to be so . Besides , Doctor Barret did much complaine , that such as had where-with to maintaine themselues , neuer came thether , and others who had nothing , were continually sent to him . Moreouer , the opinion of all men of iudgement is , and hath beene from the beginning ; that the first institution of Saint Odemars , would be the ruine , & ouerthrow of Doway . And their opinion was grounded vpon good , and forcible reasons : for knowing by experience ( as we doe know ) that in euery thing the Iesuits draw all they can vnto themselues ; we could not but assure our selues , that they would hold the like manner of proceeding in this , as the sequell hath made manifest . For since the erecting of this Seminarie , what Gentlemans sonne hath been sent ouer by any Iesuit in England , but to that house ? So that , vnder the pretence of a Colledge with pension , they haue drawne thither all the prime youths of our Country , and such as liue of themselues . Whereby now it is come to that passe , that ( notwithstanding all their pensions from the King , or others ) there be few English youths there , whose parents doe not largely pay for their educations ; neither can any poore youth be admitted thether ( for all the pensions ) but he must eyther haue anuall stipend of 20. marks plus minis by the yeere , or 40. 50. or 60. pound portion in grosse summe . And such will they foyst into Spaine , or Rome , within one yeere , or thereabouts , to giue place to others . This is so common , and so well known , to all our brethren , and others also , that I need not to inculcate the same ouermuch . And I would set down a Catalogue of many names , were it not to discouer them , to the hurt of themselues , and their friends . Now iudge you , whether the drawing of able youths , and such , as haue to maintaine themselues ( & were wont in times past to be an ease vnto the Seminarie at Rhemes ) from the Colledge of Doway , vnto this new Seminary , be not a means to impouerish and vtterly begger that Colledge . And euen so hath it hapned , as is manifest , and the last President , Docter Barret , was wont to lament it . Add vnto this the stopping of the Colledge pensions in Docter Barrets time . Consider also the bringing in of a Iesuit Confessarins ouer all the house : which was the first practise of theyr entrance into the gouernment of the Romane Colledge . Behold their putting downe of the Lectures euer vsually read with great credite , and applause in that Colledge : Marke but the turning out of the house of all the Docters , Readers , and Seniors , the chiefe pillers , and countenaunce of that house . What can any man think this tendeth vnto els , but to intrude themselues into the gouernment thereof , & vtterly to dissolue it , as they haue already not onely beggerd it , but disgraced , & discountenaunced it ? Besides , as now it is , who knoweth not that it wholy standeth at theyr deuotion , & that the President dare not creake , but as they would haue him to pipe , vnlesse hee will not onely lose his place , but also depart with reproch , infamie , and disgrace ? Into which extremities Doctor Barret was brought by them ( as all the world knoweth ) and had so departed vnto his Canonrie at Rhemes , if he had liued : howsoeuer this good fellow in his Apologie , laboureth to make him their friend , & fauorite at his death . The contrarie wherof , those that were at his last end , best know , when hee cried they had burst his backe , and that he could no longer beare , and this not long before he died . The seuenth paragraph is , that women also are induced by them to become Nunnes , and to leaue such goods as they haue vnto them . How much need soeuer Nunnes haue of their own dowries , there be some that both haue , and will taxe them with this kinde of fishing . For the which I refer you to what is writ of late in the discoueries of such their proceedings . But thus much I can say , that there haue been Gentlewomen sent ouer by them , who haue returned back , as wise as they went , with no small waste of their portions . I must conceale theyr names of necessitie , to auoyd their daungers . All Vniuersity men , & such as haue takē any degree in schooles , the Iesuits hate , despise , & contemne . Howsoeuer Ma. Parsons asketh you , whether this be true , or verifiable , we can assure you , that they so little esteeme of any , who haue taken degrees in schooles , that often-times in open words , they will derogate both from the men , and their degree . Witnes their dealing with D. Bagshaw , tearming him Docter erraticus , et per saltum : Witnes their repyning at D. Norris , and D. Hills taking degree , for preuenting the like whereof heereafter in others , Fa : Parsons ( as he said ) procured a Breve against taking of that degree : Witnes their contempt of the reu : Doct : of Paris , concerning their censure & iudgement in our matter of schisme , for which they derogated most disgracefullie from them , as all men know : Witnesse their contemptuous dealing with the Vniuersitie of Louaine : Witnes their arrogancie in all Vniuersities where they come , and their insulting against all auncient customs and priuiledges , for the which neuer Vniuersitie did , or could affect them , as they do other orders of Religion . To conclude , Catholicks stand in more feare of Iesuits , then of the hereticks , &c. and that indirectly they cause Priests to be apprehended . This he remitteth vnto all good Catholicks iudgement . Which although I meane not to draw vpon my selfe , as an accuser : yet must you giue me leaue to shew you , vppon what grounds or reasons such thinges might in part be obiected against them . It is not vnknowne vnto our world heere , how vncharitably the Iesuits haue dealt , and doe continually deale with all sorts of persons , as well priests , as lay ; noble , as meane ; if in any sort they stande in their waies , or seem to dislike any course of theirs . For manifestation wherof I will set you downe some particuler examples , by which you may gesse , whether sufficient cause be not daily giuen by them , to make all sorts of Catholicks stand in feare of them . I neede not here to stand much vpon their practises in countries beyond the seas ; how , and in what sort they haue dealt with all our Countrimen abroad , aswell Priests , as lay , seculer as religious ; the fame thereof beeing so loude , that almost the whole world doth ring therof : Witnes their dealing with Docter Barret , in most notorious and infamous sort : Witnes their dealings with the worthy Bishop of Casana , Doctor Lewes : vvitnes their proceedings with Ma. Doctor Gifford , of which we shall haue cause heereafter to speake more at large : vvitnes their continuall infamies cast vpon Ma. Charles Paget , Ma. Robert Markham , Ma. Tho : Throgmorton , Ma. Nicholas Fitzherbert , Ma. Fran : Roper , Ma. Charles Browne , Ma. Tresham , Ma. Godfrey Foulgeam , whose vntimely death was occasioned by Fa : Holt , as many men affirme . But to conclude , because a whole volume would be little enough to cōprehend the Catalogue of such Gentlemen , & priests , as haue tasted of this kinde of whip from the Iesuits , and theyr followers , beeing sometimes reputed for espialls , somtimes termed seditious , other-some taxed with ambition , others noted as factious , and some worse . So that belieue me , I know no one eminent man or person of sort , and qualitie liuing beyond the seas , whom they haue not wronged in some degree , or other , by way of calumniation , especially if they haue but so much as made any shew of dislike in their proceedings . Let vs see some examples within our Country : amongst the multitude whereof onely some few I will name , well known to many : that thereby you may haue a further tast of theyr proceedings in this sort . And first for such as haue lately died Martyrs ( as I thinke : ) notorious were the Iesuits calumniations against the Franciscan Frier Ma. Iones , alias Buckley , I my selfe was particulerly acquainted therewith , and his letters writ to Fa : Garnet after his condemnation , may be a sufficient testimonie thereof . Ma. Harrington was so oppressed with such calumnies in like sort , that hauing honest meanes for his libertie offered him , he reiected it ; saying , that then he should be accounted for no honest man , and that he must be hanged to proue him selfe honest , and free from such calumniations . Ma. Fixar was in such sort slaundered by them , that hee was forced to leaue England , and they afterwards forced him with theyr bad vsage in Spaine , to loose his life , with griefe and sorrow . Ma. Pibush , during his remaine in Gloucester prison , was calumniated by them as vnconstant in his fayth , and suspitious of reuolt : my selfe am witnes thereto . It is not vnknowne , that Ma. Plasden was so wronged by Ma. Iohn Gerards dealing , and others of them in this kind , that he could not be receiued amongst his old acquaintance in London . By which meanes he fell into the officers hands , and was executed . Ma. George Beesley , was notoriouly abused by them . The day would faile me to recite all I could , for proofe of this one point . As for men yet liuing , how many be there , whom they haue of late touched with defamations , both in Wisbich , and other prisons , as well as abroade ? Witnesse this Ma. Wingfield , called into suspition for Ma. Southwell his apprehension : Witnes this all the Priests whō they haue charged with schisme , disobedience , and mortall sinne : Witnes this all the Priests that came from Rome during the time of the stirrs there , defamed , and held as spies by them . Verilie , I thinke the third priest now in England hath not escaped theyr spightfull tongues . And as touching lay men , what man is there , that hath in any matter taken course against any of theyr proceedings , and hath not felt theyr bitter sharpe calumniating tongues : besides others of woorth , not huing any dealings with them ? VVitnes this their invectiues against my old Lo : Mountacute , when hee liued : vvitnes theyr disgracefull speeches against my Lo. Dacres of the North , my Lo. Paget in Flaunders , Sir Thomas Tresham , Ma. Talbot , Ma. Sheldon , and others , whom they haue not spared to detract in very vnciuill sort . Witnes this Ma. Ashfielde now in the Tower , vvhom openly they made a spy . Witnes this Ma. Antho : Copley defamed in the same manner . It were an infinite labour to set downe all particuler wrongs done by them in this kind . Assuredly to me it seemeth a common practise amongst them , to slaunder , defame , & detract whomsoeuer they affect not , or that opposeth their proceedings ; which is no lesse then a Machiuillian practise . And that I haue no small reason to presse them heere-with , one of theyr owne speeches vnto a Priest , complayning of the wrongs , doone to Ma. Edward Bennet in this kinde , import no lesse , which were these , or to this effect , that it was necessary or conuenient he should be disgraced , because he was against theyr societie . Iudge of the honestie of this necessitie or conueniencie , and then thinke you , whether Catholicks , & priests both , may not iustly stand in feare of them , holding such diuelish principles whereby they may at pleasure defame ; whom they please ; and ( theyr sway and power being so great at it is ) may also driue the same into the heads of many , and infinite their followers , who are ready to belieue , whatsoeuer they affirme , yea to affirme whatsoeuer they suspect . And this I thinke in my conscience maketh many of both sorts to feare to encounter with them . I know it to be true in some , who will spare to open no mans faults , ( if he haue any they know of ) & inuent or exaggerate , what they can deuise against such as oppose them , as you may see by these last bookes of Fa : Parsons . Yet haue not we dealt so with them , as to enter into theyr particuler liues , and discouer their imperfections ( as you may not thinke , they be all Saints , vnlesse you affect to be deceiued ) but onely presse them with theyr vniust proceedings , ( which beeing not priuate to their owne particuler hurt onely , as secret infirmities are , but tend to the hurt and ruine of many , yea the generall damage of both our Country and Clergie ) may no way be tolerated , because euery man is more bound to prouide for a generall , then a particuler good , and more bound to hinder a generall , then a particuler mischiefe . But to come at length to the second part of the cōclusion , which is , that they indirectly cause priests to be apprehended , let the example of Ma. Plasden before cited , be duly considered , and their dealing with Ma. Edward Bennet , whom they so defamed with the note of espiall , and the like , that he was thrust out of his residence , and the calumniation so generally spred in the Country about him , that had not a good old Gentlewoman been , he could not haue told whether to haue gone ; being not very well acquainted in the Country . Besides , at that time he was so ill of an hurt receaued in his legge , that if he had one day rode , he had not beene able to haue stirred of a fortnight , or three weekes after at the least ( as they can testifie , who had the curing thereof . ) Iudge you then what might haue beene likely to haue followed , ( if he had been reiected of that old Gentlewoman ) through those reports , being but slenderly stored with mony at that time , nor very wel prouided for his horse . Furthermore , I think there is no man so simple , but he must needs imagine that this kind of course of defaming priests for spies , &c. can doe no lesse then hazard their liberties , and lyues both ; when as thereby they shall be reiected of Cath : and driuen to shift for themselues at six , and seauen , in these dangerous times . And thus wee will end the pursuite of Fishers Memoriall , and leaue the indifferent Reader to iudge , whether there were not somewhat á parte rei , to occasionate such accusations against them . And heere I cannot choose but a little note good Fa : Parsons folly , ( which he so much vrgeth against vs ) in that he would call in question so sleightly ( besides simply ) those accusations of Fisher onely set forth simply , and barely by vs , as themselues had divulged them , without further exaggerations ; leauing the truth thereof vnsifted ; thereby to cause vs to open those dealings , and practises in him , and his , which they will neuer be able to cleare , whilest they liue , and there-withall to giue that light vnto all men , not onely to looke into the grounds of these accusations , but also to looke further into other their dealings heereafter . Now to the 2. and 3. Catalogue of chiefe points of accusations , where-with many English men haue iustly charged the Iesuits . These accusations ( Ma : Parsons saith ) were written by some of our friends , and sent to Rome vnderhand , to increase the flame of sedition there , when it was on fire , and that wee haue divulged them without scruple of conscience ( being notoriouslie false ) or respect to our friends credite , who were authors thereof . As touching the falshood or verity thereof , ( whosoeuer was the author ) wee will examine by leysure . But for our divulging them , they were first published ( as wee haue said ) by themselues , & put in print by vs , but as they came from their hands . And therefore for quotations , let good Ma : Parsons impute the blame thereof vnto his owne subiects , that sent copies abroad , without quotations of either the parties , or their letters , and not impute iugling or cunning shifting vnto them , that printed but what they receau●d from his pupills . For that kinde of iugling is not so common with any , as with his maistership , and his Schollers . Neither would it haue made against vs , or the verity of the accusations , to haue named Ma : Doctor Gifford , or Ma : Charles Paget , for authors thereof , as hee cunningly deciphereth in letters , with a seeming vnwillingnes to reueale them , though his characters make them no more knowne , then the nose vpon a mans face . For if it may goe current , that they were the authors thereof : I suppose that all men of wit , and iudgement , that euer haue eyther known , or heard of those two parties , would begin ( at the least ) to suspect something , when they should see such matters deliuered by men of their sort , and calling . For whatsoeuer this Fa : pretendeth , the credites of these men will extend as farre as his , in any place in the world , where all parts are knowne ; and therefore there was no reason at all to haue concealed their testimonies , if it had beene knowne that they were authors of these accusations . But to speake a little of the imputation layde vppon these two worthy men , cōcerning these Memorialls . I would faine know of this honest Father , if Ma. Doctor Gifford were accessarie hereto , how chaunced it then , that master Blackwell , our Archpriest , publiquely before witnes cleered him , affirming that he was not Authour thereof ? Againe , how happened it , that a commission being procured for his examination , nothing could be proued , Fa : Baldwine comming in against him in the behalfe of Ma. Parsons , and all the Iesuits ? Furthermore , how came it to passe , that you Ma : Parsons wrote to Fa : Baldwyne to make an end with the Doctor , and in any case to procure peace with him ? Wherupon he with great and earnest intreatie , vrged the Nuncio to send for the Doctor againe when hee was gone , and perswade a mutuall peace . Which the Nuncio performing , your Factor Fa : Baldwyne vpon his knees asked forgiuenes of the Doctor , both in your name ( good Fa : ) and in the name of the whole Societie ; and the Doctor afterwards in some sort , performed the like to him of humilitie , not as hauing offended , but if in any thing he had wronged any of you . Although it pleased you afterwards , against the Nuncio his commaundement of silence , to publish the act out of the pulpit in Rome , as though the Doct. had asked you forgiuenes , and not you him : & writ so both into Spaine , England , and into other places , whilst the good Doct. kept silence vpon conscience , which in such cases was yet neuer found in you . These are the ordinarie iugling tricks which are too too familiar with you , good Fa. Now ( my good Sir ) was Ma. Doct. Gifford authour of these accusations ? If he were , why did you not then take your pennyworths of him , and make him to doe publique satisfaction , these things beeing so notoriouslie false ? I am sure you might haue had iustice , when the matter came to hearing before his holines his Nuncio . Beleeue it , good Fa : these circumstances will make all the world thinke these accusations true , if you maintaine the D. to be Authour of them , sith that he not onely went vnpunished , but that you also by your Proctor asked him forgiuenes . And as for Ma. Charles Paget , the world knowes , you would neuer haue spared him one iot , if you had found the least hole that might be in his coate . But ( to let this passe ) it skilleth not much from whom the accusations come , the author must beare his owne burden . Yet will wee performe our office , and sincerelie examine the truth of euery particuler accusation . The first article is this . The Iesuits are so ambitious , as not content with the bounds theyr Fathers had placed , they haue in theyr insatiable desire , alreadie swallowed vp kingdoms and Monarchies . Ma : Parsons in a marginall note termeth this an absurd contumelious speech : and in the text asketh with what conscience we could publish this slaunder to the world , &c. To this I say , that being but printed , as themselues divulged thē , whether the words may be stretched in worse sence , then in the originall in Latine ( if any such be ) wee know not , and might suspect ( perhaps not without reason ) the worst at their hands ; yet , as they are , I will not say , that this is so absurd & false as Ma. Parsons affirmeth . For if you will but indifferently consider what we haue said concerning their practises with vs heere , both in Wisbich and abroad , as also theyr plots and practises concerning matters of state , apparant by theyr owne bookes , letters , and open actions , discouered in part , both in the Important considerations , & in the booke of Quodlibets , and others of late printed ; I do not see how a man can well auoyde the suspition of a desire in them of the whole Monarchie of England . Which suspition is not a little fortified , by their forecasting of matters , both for generall & particuler affaires to be ordered by them , or at their discretion & directions , when the time serueth : as appeareth by Fa : Parsons proude pamphlet of Reformation , intermedling with all estates . See more thereof in the Quodlibets . VVhich points considered , may not a man reasonably suspect , that they haue swallowed alreadie in their desires the kingdome , & Monarchie of England . Doe not their late attempts in Ireland shew as much for that kingdome ? I will omit their stratagems in Fraunce , and Scotland , and that which is reported of Iapona , and other places in the Indies : where they keepe to themselues the sole dominion , & will admit no other Clergie , but play Bishop , priest , and Munck themselues . Neither is it a sufficient aunswer to reply , that they take not vpon them the name or title of King. For that importeth not , so they may gouerne and direct Kings , Nobles , Bishops , prelates , and others . Therein consists theyr ambition , and swallowing of kingdoms here spoken of . And by this you may see the truth and veritie of the sixt article of accusation against them . sct . That if this ambition do remain vnpunished , the age that is to come , shall see that it wil bring bondage , not onely to Prelates , but to Princes & Monarches themselues . &c. Iudge whether this doe not probably , yea euidently follow vpon the first . And for the subiecting of Prelats , it is too too well knowne by experience , that manie Bishops haue much to doe with them , their force is so great , and they stand so much vpon their priuiledges . Besides , the foundation layd by Ma. Parsons , in the forenamed Treatise of Reformation , sct . of making all Bishops & Prelates pensioners , doth conuince no lesse . For which they had cause ( whosoeuer they were that dealt in this matter ) to beseech his holines , that he would lay the axe to the tree , and cut of the pride of this Societie , &c. which we likewise pray & beseech ( for their good ) may be done by the axe of Reformation ; that beeing brought within order , as other Friers and religious men be , they may attend vnto the quier , and their deuotions , and not to kingdoms , and Monarchies ; which must needes eyther breed their own ouerthrow , or the destruction of kingdoms , and sedition to all Christian common welths , as by many examples in Fraunce , Swethland , England , and else where they haue alreadie wrought . The Pope can commaund nothing in all his Mandates , but the Iesuits finde meanes to frustrate it by seculer power . This is the 9. article of accusation , of which this our Fa : asketh whether it can be true , or probable . Hee hath forgot belike the notorious fact at Louaine , where the Iesuits , by the power , and authority of the King of Spaine , forbad the publishing of the Popes order for the Vniuersitie against the Iesuits . This fact belike this good father thought to haue beene so secret , as it was vnknown to the world , or at the least forgotten . He likewise thinketh , that the world tooke no notice of their dilation euen in Rome it selfe to admit the Popes Breve against vti scientia habita in confessione , making vse of any thing , which was learnt by confession ( which al other religious men presently admitted without reply , ) vntill such time as his holinesse sent them a new Mandate , in virtute sanctae obedientiae , sub censuris ipso facto incurrendis , presentlie without delay to admit thereof . Many more examples in this kinde might be produced , to shew their aptnes to resist the Popes Mandates , and the little esteeme , or reuerence they beare towards such of them as check , or cōtrole their disorders . Witnes this their irreligious irreuerence towards Sixtus quintus , and open preaching against him in Spaine : and rayling against him else where , vsing approbrious , & irreuerent speeches of him in Rome it selfe . That the Iesuits doe eagerly waite for the death of the Pope , and of the renowned Cardinall Toled , that they may bring slaughter vpon all , &c. What their desires haue been concerning the death of his Holines , I cannot affirme , but sure I am , they affected him but a little in the beginning of his raigne , both for his proceedings against them , in the behalfe of the Scholers in the English Colledge in Rome , ( as by the History thereof you shall shortly see at large ) as also for his ioyning with his Maiestie of Fraunce , that now is against the Spanish intentions , and designes , wherein their fingers were deepely plunged ( as all men know ) and they yet feele : but as for the worthie Prelate Card : Toled , I thinke few men be ignorant of their clamours against him of ambition , and partiality for his dealings in the affaires of the English Colledge . VVhich might giue a probable conceite of their desire , or expectance of his death . For they vse not much to lament the death of their enemies . And if any man shall goe about to denie , that any clamours or detracting speeches were euer vsed by them against this worthy Card : I will say , hee is impudent , and hath a face of brasse , and is as shamelesse as Ma. Parsons ; who wil affirme , or denie any thing . For my selfe haue heard the fore-said irreuerent speeches from some of their owne mouthes . Now for the sequell of slaughter , or blood-shed , I leaue it as divulged by themselues , and to the proofe of the author , if any such thing were laid to their charge by anie . And for the truth thereof , their owne consciences must aunswer , though they giue no great occasion of our good conceite towards them , for their future actions by their former dealings , touching the 23. 24. and 25. art : of the Iesuits , seeking the gouernment of the Colledge of Doway , or dissolution thereof ; we haue said sufficiently already . As concerning the 13. art : preposterously brought in heere , that it is a knowne maxime among the Iesuits diuide et impera , set diuision , and them you shall gouerne at your pleasure . I thinke no man that is not wilfully blind can excuse them heerein , if he doe but halfe indifferently consider their proceedings from time to time , as well in the Colledge at Rome , and amongst the English in Flaunders , as also in England at Wisbich Castle , and in these late generall garboiles . In all which stirres , their chiefest busines hath beene to set men first together by the eares , by strange slanders , calumniations , and other Machiauilian policies , and then to attempt their purposes , and designes of rule , and dominion . He that readeth what is already shewed in this reply , and what hath beene said in former discourses , concerning their proceedings both at home , & abroad , must needes confesse as much , vnlesse he will denie apparent effects to proceed from their proper and vnknowne causes . That the Iesuits vse to intercept all manner of letters , is so generall an acclamation in forraine Countries , that it seemeth not to be clean void of verity , though for my own part I cannot say that I haue seene them intercept any Card : or Princes packets . But for experience of this matter , concerning meaner mens letters , many a score will beare witnes with me , that it is too too vsuall amongst them , not onely in Rome , but also in the low Countries , and in England to , and some letters cited by this good Fa : in his Apologie approue as much . As concerning the attestation in the 12. article , see what we haue said before to the conclusion of Fishers Memoriall , as also for the 13. article following . For more proofe ▪ and verity whereof , consider but their late dealings both in the Romaine Colledge , low Countries , Wisbich , & now generally throughout England . Which I omit heere to recite , because you may read more at large thereof in the former treatises , heeretofore published . For the verity of the 19. article , touching the contempt of the President , & the renowned Card : we referre you to what is said before to the 20 article . To speake much to the 17. article of the reuolt of eyther priests or Iesuits , I am not willing , pittying , and lamenting as well the fact of the one , as the other . Yet this I must tell Fa : Parsons , that it is a very common practise amongst his people , and their followers , to note not onely the reuolt of any priests , but also whatsoeuer infirmity they can imagine to be in them : and this of purpose to the disgracing of priests , euery where suggesting , that neuer any of their order fainted in the least sort . Which how contrarie to truth it is , we know , & are rather sorie for them , then purpose in vaunting manner to presse them with the ignominie thereof . But if they will needes prosecute such vncharitable courses to our disgraces , I promise this good Father , that I will note him aboue eyght of his order that haue incurred this disgrace , and bring him testimonie thereof , sed qui stat videat , ne cadat . I pray GOD hartily neuer any of them may reuolt . And by the way , I must tell you that it is but a iugling trick to delude your eyes , when they say that neuer any , sent in obedience of his superiour , fell . For hereby will they exclude any one that shal incur this disgrace ; either affirming that they had dismissed him before he fell , or that they came not from their superiours , but of their owne heads . This is a politick shift which they haue in their order , aboue all other religious societies ; that they may dismisse any out of their order before his last vow , which fewe , in respect of the multitude of them , are admitted vnto . Where-vpon it happeneth , that sometimes a man is 20. or 30. yeeres a Iesuit , and afterwards is dismissed . By which shift they put of many notorious things committed by them ; dismissing the persons delinquent out of theyr order secretly , to auoyde the note of their crimes , which other Religious orders cannot doe . Yet cannot this iustifie them neither , if wee would enter the lists with them in this point . Now to the other articles of English matters , and English Iesuits , the first is of their dissension , and particulerly of Fa : Garnet , and Fa : Weston , which this Fa : saith we contradict in our latter bookes , complayning that Fa : Garnet , Father Weston , Fa : Parsons , and the rest , are too much vnited , the one obeying the others becke . You haue read I suppose the history of Sampsons Foxes , who were all tied together by the tayles , running with their heads diuers courses , yet all into the Philistians corne . To let you therefore vnderstand more , both of their owne contradictions , & of theyr vnitie , it is with them , as it often times happeneth amongst children of one familie , s●t . brothers and sisters , who will very ordinarily fall out amongst themselues , but when they come to a third controuersie , or conflict , to wit , that any one of them falleth out with a third person , a stranger vnto them , they will all take part together , and fall vpon the forrainer : like as the seditious in Herusalem quarrelled daily , and hourely one against another , to theyr miserable destruction by ciuill mutinie , yet would they alvvayes ioyne together against the Romans . So the Iesuits , howsoeuer they iarre amongst themselues , yet are they all bent together , & vnited against all others that oppose any one of thē , or their proceedings . Heereupon Sixtus quintus , of famous memory , was wont to say of them ( as diuers of credit in Rome reported ) Qui tangit vnum , tangit omnes , and themselues many times haue affirmed no lesse , in the late stirrs of the Romane Colledge . But for this Fa : or any other to say , that they haue not many and often iarres , and those no small ones neither , is to fall into the depth of impudencie . Witnes the great controuersie betwixt the Spanish and Italian Iesuits not manie yeeres past : vvitnes the iarrs betweene fa : Crighton and father Parsons , for Scottish , and Spanish affaires : the like betwixt him and fa : Haywood in England ; him and fa : Holt , & diuers others of them , as fa : Cresswell , and fa : Edmund Harwood , against fa : Hieronimo Fierouante , and fa : Iulio , the Confessor of the English Colledge in Rome ; whereupon the remooue of the two latter followed , as all know , who were then in the Colledge . This poynt is so euident to all the world , as I assure my selfe no one religious Order in Gods Church commeth neere vnto them therein : witnes their daily expulsions out of theyr order , and the multitude departing from them yeerely . The 3. 5. and 7. articles are , that the Iesuits be firebrands of all sedition , enemies to all secular priests : such notable lyers as none will belieue them , no not when they sweare : that by the schismaticks in England , they are called Horsleeches . &c. For the two first poynts , theyr late actions both at home , and abroad , do witnes so euidently , that none , who are therwith acquainted , can iudge any otherwise of them . For the last , concerning the imputation of lying , so famous and notorious are theyr equiuocations , & so scandalous , that the very Protestants take notice thereof , to the great preiudice of our profession , alwaies heretofore famous for our truth and sincerity . But such iuglings and shiftings of late haue beene vsed by them , that not onely Protestants , but also Catholicks , yea Priests can scarce tell , when they speake sincerely , when otherwise . I know they will vsually make great shewes of kindnes , where they least affect : vvitnes this a pretie cunning policie of one of them , not long since practised vpon an honest gentleman : who beeing to haue entertainement in a certaine place , before his repaire thether , this Iesuit vsing great shew of kindnes towards him , would needes of curtesie bestow his Letters vpon him for his better credit , and kinder entertainment : which the honest gentleman , receiuing as a kindnes , departed . But by the way ( beeing somewhat acquainted with their tricks , and hauing no great cause to put ouer-much cōfidence in their dealings ) hee thought good to see , whether hee caried not hote coales , to burne his owne coate . Wherevppon opening the Letter , he found such stuffe against him selfe , as had I not seene the same , I should hardly haue belieued it to haue beene true . But this tricke of honestie was borowed of worthy father Parsons , the cunningest polititian in these practises aliue , I thinke . Witnes this his dealing with Robert Shepheard , in his commendations to Doctor Eley in Musepont : Witnes this his dealing with diuers scholers after the attonement in Rome . How soeuer this kinde of dealing may seeme excusable vnto them , vnder the name of honest equiuocations : sure I am that fewe honest men will excuse it from dishonest lying . I remember that a reuerend * honest Priest once told me , that he discoursed aboue an houre with a * Iesuit , and many complements passed , but not on reall intended veritie from the good Father . A worthy practise in Religious men to affect such dishonest dealings , which tendeth to nought els , but to take away all societie & conuersation amongst men , which is hatefull euen vnto Pagans and Turkes . For howe should a man conuerse with such a one , whose conceits and meanings hee shall neuer vnderstand , whereby he shal often conceiue most good , when the other intendeth most knauery and villanie . But to make an end of these articles . Fa : Parsons collecteth one ( in close and end of all ) to make you laugh , to wit , that he , and his companions ( as is reported ) gathered fiftie thousand pounds out of England to their owne vse . But Fa : Parsons merry iest is , the multiplication of this summe to 200. millions of Italian scudi . Heere forsooth he telleth you the people must laugh . I know some persons so merrily disposed , that eftsoones they can laugh at a feather ; but if wisedome with discretion , and grauitie , consider this multiplication , I verily think no such merry mood will moue their conceits , but rather iudge that error to haue beene either in the transcription to the presse , or in the Printer , then of malice which were too too blind , or ignorance ( which were as grosse , ) to mistake so much the alteration of the summe out of one kind of coyne into an other . See now whether there were more malice or ignorance in the error , or more folly in the carping exceptions . But we must giue him leaue to snatch at the least aduantage ; for all will be too little to iustifie themselues , or excuse their actions . But let vs come a little to the accusation about their collections . It is well knowne that collections in England haue not been small , yet haue the distributions been so scant , and sparing , that poore prisoners neuer liued in the like want , as of late yeeres they haue done : let them speake heereof , that haue felt the smart ; yet all the world knoweth , that such Collections haue passed generally thorow theyr hands , what becommeth thereof God knoweth . But sure I am that for themselues , ( howsoeuer prisoners are pincht ) they liue in aboundance , and excesse , ( as before I haue noted some examples thereof , and something by the way I will tell you . It is not long sithence 22. hundred pounds in gold were taken going ouer the Seas , which being confiscate to her Maiestie , neuer any came to claime the same , neither could it be knowne whose it was , and more then this ; by some of the highest it was thought verily to be the Iesuits money . I will not say absolutely it was theirs , because I was not of their counsaile : but it was a wonder that the owners ( if it belonged to any others ) would make no meanes by way of suite , or supplication , to haue got ( at the least ) some part thereof backe againe , sith the chiefest penalty was but the confiscation of the money taken ; which no man going about , made the matter more suspitious to all men . But more wil be said heereof , if there be any further occasion . Now I will onely proceede by coniectures , and add to the rest some other probabilities , or inducements , in that the Iesuits being religious men , and therefore poore , yet some of our English Iesuits beyond the Seas , who haue no reuenues , or commings in any way knowne ; will sometimes bestow largely in crownes , of their owne purse , vpon such fauorites or factors , as they imploy in their affaires , & practises abroad in the world . This is a thing not vnknowne to many of our English men , liuing abroad in the low Countries , and else where . How many did Fa. Holt deale with-all in the low Countries in this kind , keeping correspondencie with many needy fellowes , and imploying many bare mercenarie men in his affaires ? There be also that will affirme ( and of credit ) that Fa : Rich. Walpole in Spaine , giuing good store of crowns vnto a certaine English man ( whom it was thought he meant to vse in some honest peece of seruice , ) was afterwards ( the matter being knowne ) examined how he came by so much money , and he aunswered , that he receaued it out of England from his friends : But we all know that Fa : Rich. Walpoles friends in England are not of such ability , as to send him such exhibition . Now would I aske Fa : Parsons whence this money came ? But you perhaps wil demaund how such summes should come to their hands ? I aunswer , that it is wel known that they haue had the disposition of the common purse for many yeeres , and the receits of almost all legacies in pios vsus , yeerely almes , extraordinarie gifts , besides restitutions de bonis incertis , much for dispensations in diuers cases , ( euery one running to them by reason of their large faculties ▪ ) and for alienations , ad-vousions , &c. All which receites rise to no small summe . There hath falne by way of legacies within these few yeeres of my knowledge ( besides what other men can say ) 2000. pound , ( some affirme 3000. pound ) from one man of worth , 500. pounds from an other priuate Gent : 800. pound from another , and some 100. pound yeerely in lands , and rents besides . All which portions , besides infinite other legacies of lesse summes , haue come vnto their hands , and disposition : and whereof no man can say iustly that he hath receaued one penny , I verily think . Besides , Ma : Iohn Gerard for his part , got by one Gent : 200. pound at one time , ( the bonds for which I once saw by chaunce ) & 700. pound at another time , ( as his neerest kinsmen will depose , ) besides the disposition of 100. pound by the yeere : of which the Gent : ( all accounts being taken to a pot of beere ) neuer spent 50. pound yeerely . The said Iesuit had in another place by a priests procurement , who told me thereof , Clx. pound , of another he receaued 500. pound in a matter of restitution , certa pro incertis , the party hauing compounded before by the aduise of another priest , for 300. pound , which he should haue giuen to the prisoners of Wisbich . But this young Father comming to the party hoysed the sum vnto 500. pound , and tooke it vnto himselfe , depriuing the said prisoners therof . Furthermore , he receaued at times of a Gent : and his mother , by his meanes , aboue 1000. markes . All this to me is knowne , besides what I know not of , and what he hath gotten by the vse of his exercises , in which kinde many will say he hath got no small summes . Iudge then by these few examples , what great summes may soone accrew vnto theyr purses : and with this doe but consider how their factors , and such as haue imployments for them in this kind , grow from meane estates , and small expences vnto good shewes in the world , and much encrease in their yeerely expences . Of which number two for example are generally knowne ( I dare say ) vnto many . There is a Gentleman in London , whose estate we know to haue beene so weake , as that his shew could not reach vnto his ranke ; but shortly falling in with the Iesuits to be a factor for them , since these late garboyles , he is become a man of no meane reputation . His maintenance is sound , and large , insomuch that whereas xx . shillings hath been money in his purse heere-to-fore , he can now hazard twenty nobles at play . I verily thinke you will say that this encrease can come no other way then from their box . There is likewise another Gentleman , that hath beene longer acquainted with the Iesuits affaires , and a man vvholie imployed by them , especially as Dispensator , or rather receauer of such beneuolences as haue beene giuen in pios vsus , for the maintenaunce of poore prisoners . We haue knowne this man somtimes of the Temple , not so largely prouided for by his friends , as able to make halfe that shew he now doth : yet did he then enioy all that his friends had left him . For if he remember , when he vsed the Ordinarie , at a kinsmans house of his owne with other Gentlemen , his commings in were so small , that diuers times , and ( vnlesse I be very fowly deceaued ) for some yeeres together , his kinswoman to maintaine his credit with the other Gentlemen , gaue him his ordinarie money before meale to pay with the rest . Belieue me , by the port he now carrieth , and the state he taketh vpon him therwith , you would thinke him a man of no small reuenewes . Whereuppon you may gesse , that eyther his fortunes haue beene very extraordinarie of late , and vnknowne too , or else hee is largely beholding vnto his good Maisters that imploy him in these affaires . But howsoeuer the world fareth vvith him , I would his charitie , or iustice , or both , were more indifferent in his distributions , then they haue beene : and that hee would not at his pleasure , and small discretion , discerne betwixt the deserts , or not deserts of prisoners , lay , or priests , and exempt at his will whom he list . If he will be an Oeconomus or Dispensator , hee must one day reddere rationem villicationis . I remember once this Gentleman came vnto Bridewell to certaine poore prisoners there to see their wants , and finding them in extreame necessity , he began to examine them , whether they resorted , and to whom ; and finding that they were acquainted with a priest in the Clinck , he turned his backe in a choler , saying ; that they deserued nothing , and that they should lie , and doe as they would for him , and so departed leauing them neuer a penny . How true this is , the poore prisoners , that felt the smart , can tell ; and one can testifie that was within hearing , when this passed which I haue declared . Many more hangers on this box , and those hungry ones too , could I name , if I would spend my time so idly as to enrole them here . I could name one that was of late a prisoner ( not for building of Churches ) who ( by his owne confession ) receiued 30. pound of the Archpriest , and Iesuits . This man should haue beene imployed for them in our affaires . All this , to any man of wisedome , and indifferencie , can import no lesse , then that the Iesuits be Maisters of no small cōmings in , when as , both themselues are so well furnished , and theyr followers , and hangers on so extraordinarily prouided for . But you will say , that although much come to their hands , yet doth it not follow , that they either heape it vp for themselues , or send it ouer vnto their Societie beyond the seas . For it is well knowne , that very much is sent by them vnto prisoners abroade in all places . And sith there must be some to haue care of those matters for prisoners , it is more befitting vnto the Iesuits , ( being religious men , & therefore not of the world , nor to gape after worldly thinges , or to respect anie thing in the world more then for necessity to maintaine nature ) then to any other , who haue not forsaken the world , & preferments thereof . First I aunswer , that I take not vppon me to charge them with sending ouer of summes beyond the seas , neither doe I meane to draw vpon my selfe the maintaining of these obiections and accusations layd to their charge , ( as at the first I said ) but onely to deliuer sincerely such matters which I know to be true , and that euen plainly as they were , leauing the iudgment thereof vnto the indifferencie of the Reader ; onely to that end , that the world might see vpon what grounds such accusations might arise , and that we haue had more occasion in very deed to complaine against them , then the world would take notice of . And for their large dispensing of almes giuen , & receiued , let any that hath wit and vnderstanding , iudge by that little , which we haue set downe , ( which in very deed is very small , in respect of that , which hath been giuen ) whether there be any proportion betwixt the receits , & the distributions : besides , wee talke not heere , nor speake one word of the common Collections which are yeerely made for prisoners , nor such yeerely exhibition , as we know good deuout Cath : doe giue to prisoners , and prisons , neither of priuate almes giuen in particuler , from particuler friends , vnto particuler men in prison : all which considered , I think it will not be found out , that very much more cōmeth to prisoners besides this . What then ( thinke you ) may become of that which wee haue spoken of , and such like summes ? And touching the Iesuits sending so largely to prisoners , let the Clincke , Framingham , and other places , witnes theyr great charitie for these two yeeres past , or there abouts . Concerning their abnegation of the world , and worldly preferment , whereby the credit and trust of such collections , & distributions , should rather be committed to them , then others ; I would it were with them , as it is with other religious men , that forsake the world . But it is otherwise , for they are neuer without one foote in the world , and that deepely to . I might say ( I feare me ) hands , legges , body , and all , howsoeuer they make shew to the contrary . And for to shew you , that they too too much affect the world , and seeke too earnestly after the wealth thereof , I will set you downe one pretie Spanish example , omitting infinite other which I could relate . It fortuned that a rich man in Valledolid in Spaine , lying at the point of death , had giuen largely vnto the Iesuits , & vppon compassion towards the English men liuing in the English Colledge there , he layd out a good summe of gold vpon a table , by him in the chamber , where he lay , with order that it should be giuen to that Colledge , towards the maintenance of the English there . This gold lying thus in view , in commeth a lay brother of the Iesuits to visite the sick ; and falling into discourse with the party deceased , began to relate vnto him what care was had of him by their Fathers , and that there was continuall prayer for him in their Colledge . The sicke man thanked him , and them for their mindfulnes of him in those extremities , and told him that he had also taken order , that the poore English men which liued in the towne for Gods cause , should haue such a summe of money , which lay vpon the table , to pray for him . The lay brother perceauing the gold to make a faire shew , repined that it fell not also to their share . Where-vpon he entered into a discourse with the sicke person of the pouerty of their Fathers , and that they being naturally borne in the Country , were forgotten of euerie body , and by that meanes were very poore : but the English men were very rich , and euery man gaue vnto them , adding with-all that their Fathers would be more carefull to pray for him then the English men , and their prayers more effectuall for him . By this discourse he got the gold into his fingers , and departed merrily : but the English Iesuits , who were in the English Colledge , when they vnderstood thereof , were euill appayed , and complained thereof . If this be a lye , blame the English Iesuits of Valedolid , who spared not to complaine heereof to the Scholers . I should wearie you , to relate all the stories I could tell you , of them in this kinde : but to auoyde tediousnes , you shall content your selfe onely with this at this time . After that Fa : Parsons had done with these accusations , he bringeth in againe preposterously a thing deliuered in the 25. page of our Relation , viz. that after Cardinall Allens death , the students in the English Colledge at Rome , felt no lesse oppression there by the Iesuits tyranizing Gouernours , then wee did at home , &c. How true this accusation is , the story of those stirres shall shew you , as in part hath already beene deliuered , neither will this Fathers threats , and bigge words serue his turne , to out-braue innocent men for telling truth , and shaming the deuill , and the authors , and actors in such vniust , vncharitable , and irreligious proceedings : which his Apologie deceitfully shufleth of , and vntruly relateth , as shall appeare in the discourse thereof . Concerning Fa : Garnets bestirring of himselfe for subscriptions against the fore-said accusations , wee haue already said sufficiently how vniust both the letters , writ in that behalfe were ; as also how vndiscreete the subscriptions were of such , as without all limitation freely subscribed thereto . Yet heere by the way , I may not omit Fa : Garnets letter in that behalfe , wherein ( the rather to moue all men to subscribe to a generall acquiting them of all such things ) he protesteth coram deo et angelis , that there was not mica veritatis , in those accusations ; which yet Fa : Parsons durst not so peremptorily affirme : when hee sayeth onely that all was not true therein contayned , couertly insinuating that some things were true . And I will referre my selfe , and all my poore credite vnto the Reader heereof ; whether manie things in that Collection be not true , yea , all things either in whole or part ; whereby you may note , what a dangerous protestation Fa : Garnet entered into , materially contayning a manifest vntruth ; howsoeuer the formality thereof may seeme to be excused by some hidden equiuocation or other . And as for his modesty or scrupulosity in his triple diuision , ( as Fa : Parson sayeth ) you must giue me leaue to think it rather to haue proceeded vpon a guilty conscience , or policie , or both ; thereby to draw euery man to subscribe . For hee might well imagine , that some men would look into the matter , at least so neere , as not to subscribe more , then they could auouch , howsoeuer some few might be induced thereto . And what reason , or shew of innocencie there was in the performance of that office , on the Iesuits behalfe , I know not ; neither doe I see that necessitie in the prosecution thereof , that Fa : Garnet could doe no lesse ( as Fa : Parsons affirmeth . ) For I would but aske him this one question ; why he did not procure a iuridiciall examination of matters , that men might speak , what they knew vpon their oathes ; but would shuffle them vp in corners , and seeke to draw men by fauours , perswasions , & the like , to testifie for them , as I am able to proue they did . This kinde of couert dealing in any wise mans iudgement , could not but yeeld great suspition of guilty consciences in them : For all men know , that a man will conceale many things , which he could say , being but ordinarily thereof demaunded ; which he would not doe , being examined iuridicè vpon his oath . Besides , who is ignorant , that such as should haue accused them by their subscriptions , should thereby haue incurred their high displeasure , ( which for ought I see many yet feare ) and yet haue done thereby small good , in that their subscriptions should haue been concealed , or by some meanes or other frustrated of their ends , as the subscriptions of the three priests were , who subscribed somewhat disliking to their humors . But there was a farther policie in these matters . The procuring of these subscriptions , were but an introduction to other poynts , which they had in hand , concerning the Archpresbiterie . For by this meanes did they first sound the affections of priests towards them , & try what they could doe with them , if the like manner of occasion should serue afterwards , as in the same sort they did , after the institution of the Archp : by priests subscriptions to a congratulation procure his confirmation . After the end of all this , our good Fa : seemeth to lament our case for defaming of theyr order : and hee citeth manie Authors against diffamations , and defamors of others , & specially of Religious orders . But I would faine knowe to what end hee so much laboureth , in quoting Authors to this purpose . Can he thinke that men , who professe to direct other mens consciences , can be ignorant of the sinne of detraction , and penalties thereof ? Well , in execution and practise men may erre , but it were great folly & rashnes for him to thinke them ignorant in the knowledge or speculation of it . Or is Fa : Parsons so vnobseruaunt of his owne actions & writings , that he doth not see that wee can retort all that hee hath said heerein against himselfe ? Is there any man liuing that hath more defamed Ecclesiasticall men then Fa : Parsons ? VVas it not Fa : Parsons that defamed so many vertuous Priests & scholers in the Seminarie of Rome , and divulged the same to all the world , and now in print in his Apologie ? Is it not fa : Parsons that in the said Apologie hath defamed 12. or 13. reuerend priests prisoners in Wisbich ? Is it not Father Parsons that hath divulged in the said booke , & by letters through the world , diffamation against all the priests of England , that refused to subscribe to the Archpriest ? Was it not fa : Parsons that enformed falsly vnto his Holines , against not onely all the Priests of England , but also all Cath : suggesting to his Holines , that they were at varience and quarrelling one with the other ? Was it not Fa : Parsons chiefely that defamed Ma : Doctor Gifford , and now renueth the same course againe in his Apologie ? Nay , who liueth amongst vs , that euer opposed himselfe against any proceedings of the Iesuits , & felt not this Fathers good words ? See now good Sir , what danger you stand in , through your vniust and slaunderous calumniations . But as for that we haue sayd or done , you shall see that wee will sufficiently purge our selues of all such dangers , which he shall neuer be able to doe . First you know , it is a generall receaued ground by all , that when the actions of any particuler man or men , ( be they of what degree they will be , secular or religious , Ecclesiasticall or Lay ) do tend vnto any generall , or common hurt of a cōmunitie : ( as for example , the actions of some particuler seruaunt in a familie , to the ruine or ouerthrow of the familie , some particuler scholer or scholers in a Colledge , to the subuersion of the Colledge , or some particuler men in a cōmon wealth , to the destruction of a Common wealth , ) it is then not onely lawfull to disclose these particuler men , and theyr particuler actions , though otherwise priuate and diffamatorie vnto the said particuler parties ( as all such actions of theyr owne nature must needs be ) but also euery honest seruaunt , euery faithfull seruaunt , euery true scholer , and loyall subiect , is bound in conscience vpon his duty to his Master , faith vnto his Colledge , loyaltie to his Prince , and loue to his country , to disclose such persons , and their facts or intentions , with our regard or respect vnto the hurt , or damage , that may redound vnto the said particuler parties so offending . The reason heereof is this , because a generall good is alwayes to be preferred before a particuler , and a greater hurt to be eschued before a lesse . As for example , when two euils concurre so that both cannot be auoyded , but that necessarily the one must happen , it is not onely charitie , but euery man is also bound to preuent the greater euill with permission of the lesse rather then the contrary . This foundation beeing layd , which is grounded vppon the law of nature ; now will I easily make you see , that our divulging of some proceedings of Fa : Parsons , and other Iesuits , is not onely voyd of iust imputation , but also lawful , iust , and necessary , all circumstances considered , & therefore free frō the danger of those penalties cited by Fa : Parsons in this worke . And first , for the reuealing , or indeede divulging of things already reueled by theyr owne foolish open dealings . Concerning matter of state , who can be so ignorant , as not to know , that he is bound more to loue his country then a Iesuit , yea , the whole order of the Iesuits : sith vnto the first he is bound by the law of nature , to the second onely by the law of fraternall charitie . Now then the actions of the Iesuits tending so euidently as they doe , and haue done to the ruine , subuersion , and ouerthrow of our Prince , and country , both by secret practises , & open incursions of Spanish inuasions , ( as is manifest both by theyr own books , letters , & other dealings , as well in Ireland , as England ) what good subiect , or true-harted Englishman can doe lesse then disclaime vvith his mouth , resist with his blood , and open with his tongue , all such vnnaturall and trecherous attempts ? And if any man be so simple , or so deluded by theyr fayre words , as that he hath not , or doth not see any such practise , or intention in them , let him not therefore blame vs for speaking therof , or divulging the same , who are too wel acquainted therewith , and therefore bound to reueale , what we know therein , when it shall be necessary for the preseruation of our Prince and Countrey . Neither let any man be so simple as to thinke , that because they are religious men , and Catholicks , therefore they may be priuiledged the more in such courses , vnder pretence of Reformation , for such a conceit were very erroneous . If in a Lay person , ( vnder what pretence soeuer ) it be vnlawfull to worke the ruine of his country , much more is it vnlawfull in a Religious person , vnto whom such affaires belong not . But some will say , they tend not vnto any subuersion of theyr Country , but to a Catholicke reformation . To such a fond obiection ( yet too too common ) I aunswer , that whatsoeuer they pretend , they goe about to effect it by externe hostile meanes . And how this should be without conquest and mutation , and subuersion of all , is impossible to be conceiued . Besides , he that hath wit will know , that the kingdome of England is a faire marke to shoote at : & therefore cannot be so fond or foolish as to imagine , that an inuader hauing got the field , will leaue the crowne , which once possest , he will seeke to keepe . And I suppose you will imagine that a Spaniard will rather put himselfe in trust to himselfe , and his force , by which he entereth , then vnto the curtesies of those , whom he conquereth . If so , must he not doe as William the conquerour did , erect his vassalls , and Country men , and suppresse the nobility , and other the naturall inhabitants of the Countrey ? Doth hee not so in other places , which he hath got by the sword , transferring in some parts of the Indies , and rooting out all the inhabitants almost of the Countries , and planting Spaniards and Aliens ? And can any Cath : be so simple , as to perswade himselfe of any regard to be had to him , in such an inuasion , because he is a Cath : Truly I doe wonder at such fond conceits . Haue they forgot , or haue they not heard that in the yeere 1588. all had gone to wrack , Cath : and others ? If they will not heerein beleeue me , let them beleeue Fa : Parsons affirming as much to diuers . And that the Duke de Medina , generall of the Nauie , affirmed , that he knew no difference : let them beleeue Fa : Southwells speeches , vttered to the same purpose at Wisbich , amongst the priests there . Incredulous men heerein doe not certes vnderstand of their proceedings at the winning of Antwerpe , where they made no difference of murdering , & spoyling whomsoeuer ; amongst whom were diuers Cath : slaine , and spoyled after their entrance ; and the sooner when the Souldiers perceaued they were Cath : ( as I haue heard ) for feare of loosing their pray : See what reason wee haue to presse them with these matters . Secondly , for the opening of their proceedings concerning their Clergie , we haue much more reason to disclose the same , because they tend to a greater mischiefe being against a greater , and more pretious Common-wealth . Wherefore if those things by vs divulged touching such affaires be true , there is no man of iudgement , and vnderstanding , can blame vs for manifesting the same ; sith it is more , then necessarie , that such euill attempts , and indeuours , which tend to the ouerthrow , and destruction of the ecclesiasticall Hierarchie , be knowne , and fore-seene of all men ; that thereby the vniuersall mischiefe , which otherwise would ensue , might be auoyded , and their insultations against ecclesiasticall persons , and the priuiledges of the seculer Clergie with more speed checked , and controlled . This is so true a position , that I suppose no man will denie it , in that the church of Christ cannot stand , without the seculer Clergie , viz. Bishops , Priests , &c. But it is certaine , that it may stand without any particuler order of Religion , being magis ad ornamentum , et adiumentum ecclesie ex conuenientia , quam ex necessitate . And therefore euery man is bound in conscience more to the preseruation of the seculer Clergy , and priuiledges thereof , then to any perticuler order of Religion in the Church ; yea , then to all orders whatsoeuer of particuler obseruations . Now then the question onely remayneth , whether the imputations of those things , obiected by vs against them , be true or no : which knowne , all the controuersie of detraction , or penalties thereby incurred , is easily aunswered . And for the proofe of this matter , I refer you to what we haue already written , as well in this reply , & in our former bookes ; as also to an indifferent consideration of their late practises heere amongst vs for a subordination , to depend at their direction , & deuotion : and their attempts in Wisbich , together with Fa : Parsons new worke of reformation . All which duly , and indifferently considered , I know you will say no lesse , then we haue said , and condemne them , as deepely as we doe , for such vniust insultations to the peruerting of all true order in Gods Church , tending to the defacing of that excellent Hierarchie , instituted by Christ him selfe . Neither haue these practises beene onely attempted in England , but also in diuers other parts beyond the Seas ; and diuers Cath : vvriters haue taxed them there-with . If you vrge yet the divulging of other particuler actions , and proceedings , as particularly those matters of Rome against the Scholers , and also some particuler proceedings against some priuate men : I aunswer , that those proceedings in Rome had the same end , and scope , which these in England haue in seeking to impose a yoake of bondage vppon the Scholers there , before they came into England , that they might tyranize at their will without check , or controle , & disgrace such as contradicted their desires , as you shall more at large see in the discourse of those stirres . Besides , Fa : Parsons , and the Iesuits had defamed many Priests , and Scholers vniustly , and vntruly : whereby they were inforced to enter into the opening of such their proceedings for the maintenance , and recouery of their fames , and credits by them vniustly assaulted , which course ( iustice and truth being obserued ) no man can denie to be lawfull . And as for other particuler wrongs done to particuler men , they haue for the most part tended vnto one and the same end , and therefore vpon one and the same ground reuealed . Furthermore also , to acquaint you with an other case of conscience , wherby all such particuler obiections may be answered , & we easily cleered : you shall vnderstand , that when any person or persons take such courses , as that thereby vnder feyned shewes , or faire glofes , they obfuscate or blind the eyes of the people , whereby they cannot see into the miseries , or dangers whereinto they draw them , then is it lawfull for any man that seeth into the generall euils , which will ensue therby , not onely to open their said practizes , but also ( if it be necessarie , and that otherwise the parties will not be seene into , and such mischiefes auoyded ) to open some other particuler facts or practizes more familiar , or apparent , therby to giue light vnto such , as otherwise wil not cōceiue the dangers , and mischiefes following the actions , and practises of such men , or be induced to belieue any such manner of dealings in them , and thereby auoyde them , as dangerous . As for example : If I knew any one man neere to a Prince or generall Magistrate , whose secret actions , & priuate workings tended vnto the subuersion of the Prince , and Countrey , or Magistrate , and Citty , and that this being vnknowne to the Prince , or Magistrate , affection would not suffer them to see their owne danger , and the danger of their Countrey , Common-wealth , or Citty ; it were not only lawfull for me , to disclose the particuler actions of the said party , though priuate , thereby to giue occasion vnto the Prince or Magistrate , to be more vigilant vnto themselues , and their estates , and more obseruant of the aforesaid dangerous person , but also an act of allegeance to my Prince , and of loue vnto my Country , vnto which euery man is bounde in duty and conscience . So in our case , if any particuler actions of the Iesuits be discouered , they are but matters of proceedings with particuler men , that thereby you might learne by particularities , and matters of lesse moment , to conceiue the better what , & how dangerous their practises be in matters of greater waight ; and how theyr proceedings hold one and the selfe-same course , both in particuler and generall affaires , in matter of lesse and greater moment . And this ( so long as we obserue truth in our relations ) is both lawfull and necessary ( as the case now standeth with the Iesuits , and their actions in England , ) and we are free both from the note of detractors , in reuealing theyr exorbitant proceedings , & penalties thereby incurred . The like cannot be said in theyr behalfe for defaming of vs. For they haue not onely vniustly , and vntruly detracted from our good names , and credits in these matters of our proceedings ( as all the world now seeth ) but also entred into our particuler liues , most falsly going about to touch therein our good names , which no way is excusable , in that if any such thing had beene true in any of vs , yet could it not ( beeing a secret infirmitie ) haue tended to any generall hurt of any whole body , or common-wealth , but onely to a particuler hurt of a mans selfe , which by no law of conscience could be reuealed by them : Neither haue wee done so by them , though I thinke no man will recken them all saints . But those secret diffamations proceeded doubtlesse of a machiauilian ground , and not of iustice , or charitie . Now let vs come at length vnto the booke of Important considerations , at which our deere Father spitteth no lesse then fire , with words of folly , frensie , fury , mutinie , warre , and defiance , parasiticall , pernicious , erroneous , hereticall , wicked , reprochfull , trayterous , ridiculous , impious , base , and wickedly minded , proctors for hereticks , accusers against persecuted Catholicks , transformed with passion , enuy , malice , sold our tongues to the cōmon enemy , vnited in wicked attempts , contemptible to all Catholicks of discretion , & the like . Certes this good mans zeale was great , when in his heate of choler hee vttered so many fierie and passionate speeches . But yet I must needs craue pardon at his hands to runne ouer this matter a new , and request his patience , that wee may examine the booke againe , and see , whether it deserue so mightie blame , as hee maketh shew of . Belieue me , if it doe , we will cancell it , and blot out his date : but if it proue otherwise , hee must be content to let it passe with a more fauourable interpretation , and not wrest matters into worse sence , then euer the Authors intended . In the very first entrance into this booke , I wish you to note a cunning falshood of this Father , in the relating of the title of this booke , which he setteth downe thus . Important considerations to mooue all true Catholicks that are not wholy Iesuited , to acknowledge all the proceedings of the state of England against Catholicks , ( since it excluded the Romaine faith , and fell to heresie ) to haue beene not onely iust , but also mild , and mercifull . &c. In this altered title , ( which is not verbatim with the title of the booke ) Fa : Parsons sheweth himselfe not a little ; first in foysting in of the world all before proceedings , thereby to take aduantage of euery petty matter , that hath happened perhaps sometimes by the knauery of some Pursuiuant , or other odd fellow without commission , or warrant ; as also in adding with a Parenthesis ( since it excluded the Romane fayth , and fell to heresie ) therby to make the matter shew more hatefull and haynous . Whereas in very deede , ( as euery man may see , that list to read ouer the Treatise ) the intention is not to excuse , or iustifie euery particuler action of the state , as the action may be in it selfe considered without further respect , then to that particuler bare action . For who will or can iustifie , or excuse the killing of a priest as a priest , or confiscating or hanging of a Cath : as a Cath : meerely for religion . This ( I say ) is not intended in that booke , as all the world may see , for therein is lamented the hard course taken , as well against Priests as Catholicks ; neither for ought I see , doth the state make shew of persecution quo ad vitam et necem , for matter meerely of religion , and conscience , but vppon pretence of treason , or attempts against her Maiesties person , or state , or ( at the least ) vpon the feare thereof . Now then all the end , and scope of this booke , is none other then this ; to excuse the state from such generall imputation of infamie layd vpon it , especially by the Iesuits ( who haue been the chiefest causers of those vehement afflictions ) as though the state without all cause , or shew of cause , had made lawes against innocent men , and there-vpon persecuted them vnto death , no true occasion of exasperation hauing euer been giuen from any such person , eyther to prince or state . To take away ( I say ) this vnderserued infamie , this treatise was written of purpose , to lay the fault truly , where indeede really it hath beene ; humbly desiring at the feete of our Soueraigne that we being innocent in such actions , may not sustaine the burden of their offences ; but may obtaine so much fauour in her gratious sight , as to be numbred amongst her loyall subiects , and those that hate such vnnaturall , and euer accursed practises , least otherwise we be inforced to say ( lamenting our case ) with the Prophet patres nostri peccauerunt , et non sunt , et nos inquitates eorum portamus . This I say is the whole scope , and intention of this worke , and therefore doth the author giue reasons by particuler mens actions , and vndiscreete attempts , as well by writings , as practises , that the state hath had iust cause to feare , when it perceaued such dealings , and there-vpon was moued to prouide by lawes , and premunitions against the like afterwards . And if by these lawes , and prouisions it happened , that innocent men sometimes were wronged ( as in all generall lawes it happeneth sometimes ) yet was not the state ( all causes first giuen considered ) so much to be condemned ; nay , rather it was to be excused , in that it is most certaine , that it hath not proceeded with that rigor , vpon such causes giuen , as otherwise it might haue done , to the extirpation of all such persons , from whom , or from whose degree , such actions proceeded . And I would but aske Fa : Parsons ( because I know him to be a great statist ) this one question , whether in his conscience he doe think there be any Prince in the world , be he neuer so catholicke , that should haue within his dominions a kind of people , amongst whom diuers times he should discouer matters of treason , and practises against his person , and state , whether he would permit those kind of people , to liue within his dominions , if he could be otherwise rid of them , and whether hee would not make straight Lawes , and execute them seuerely against such offenders , yea , and all of that company , and quality , rather then he would remaine in any danger of such secret practises , and plots ? I thinke Fa : Parsons will not for shame denie this ; especially if he remember the examples of the French religious men , for the like practises expelled England generally , in a Cath : time , and by a Cath : Prince , and theyr lyuings confiscate , and giuen away to others . The like was of the Templars , both in England , and Fraunce . Yea , to come neerer vnto him , was not all their order expelled Fraunce for such matters , and yet the King , and state of Fraunce free from imputation of iniustice in that action ? If these things proceeded from Cath : Princes iustly against whole Communities , or orders of Religion vppon such causes ; wee cannot much blame our Prince , and state , being of a different Religion to make sharpe lawes against vs , and execute the same , finding no lesse occasion thereof in some of our profession , then the fore-said Princes did in other religious persons , whom they punished , as you see . But you will say , that there is no reason , that the innocent should be condemned for another mans fault ; if some one Cath : or Priest were faulty in this kind , all were not so ; how then can the actions of the state against such be iustifiable ? To this I aunswer , that you cannot think that euery particuler French Monke , was guilty of treason in that Kings dayes , when all were expelled , nor is it like that all the Templers were so irreligious , as some of them were , neither doe I think that all the Iesuits were accessarie , or consenting vnto their practises in Fraunce ; yet all ( you see ) payd for the delict of some . Princes are iealous , and haue cause so to be , there depending so much vpon their safety as there doth . When therefore they find trecherie in any Communitie , they will be sure to prouide for the worst , and rather extirpate that Cōmunitie , then liue in feare thereof . Doth it not so happen alwayes , when the Gouernours or Magistrates of a Cittie , counite , or concurre vnto any treason ; doth not the Cittie presently lose all her priuiledges , and the Prince seaze vpon the same , and take all into his owne hands , & gouernment , suppressing the whole state of the Cittie , for the faults of a few onely ? vvhat meruaile then , if this hath happened in our case , where there hath been such difference in religion ? And then iudge whether we , that haue beene innocent in such practises , ( as GOD and our conscience can witnes , and yet haue felt the smart of such proceedings ) haue not great cause to cleere our selues ; to exclaime against such as will neuer leaue to irritate our Prince , and state , and to make known vnto her Maiestie , and our state , the innocencie both of vs , & of our ghostly children ( who haue beene pressed with the burden of afflictions , by reason of such vndutifull attempts in some few vnrestrained persons ) most humbly crauing at her sacred hands , some redresse for such miseries , that the stroke may light where the offence hath been giuen , and not henceforth vpon the necks of poore innocents . If there be any offence in vs towards her Maiestie , or her proceedings , it is onely in matters of religion , which beeing a thing not onely proceeding of mans will , but by a light from God , informing first the vnderstanding , and then the will , ( and therfore not to be altered or disposed as other indifferent actions or conceits may be , ) wee hope may , and will be more excusable in her gracious sight . But for matters of practising against her person , crowne , or state , that is a thing onely proceeding from a peruerse , and passionate will , the vnderstanding still remayning sui iuris , able to discerne ad vtrum libet , eyther of the cōueniencies or mischiefs of such affaires , which no way can be excusable . Now whereas some woorthy men are touched with such vndutifull proceedings in the afore-said Treatise , you must vnderstand , that thereby the persons of the men are not condemned , but rather theyr facts , or they onely in those facts , yet worthy men in themselues . And you must vnderstand , that good men , yea Saints , haue had their errors , ( as these proceedings in these woorthy men must be acknowledged ) neither may we approue such errors because the Authors of them were Saints . No man approueth the defence of rebaptization in Saint Cyprian , because S. Cyprian is a Martyr , and yet whilst hee liued he defended the same very earnestly , & practised it with great contention against other Bishops . Dauids fact of murthering Vrias , must not be excused , because he was secundum cor Dei , and now a Saint : no , no , passions and errours haue raigned in Saints whilst they were vpon the earth , yea euen amongst the Apostles , and disciples of Christ , whilst he was with them . Therefore let no man be scandalized , that good men and worthy persons are condemned in some particuler facts , sith no man liueth on earth without error . But you will say , it is commaunded in the Law non reuelabis turpitudinem patris tui , & the two sonnes of Noe were cursed of God , for reuealing and laughing at theyr fathers nakednes : therefore we should rather haue buried such defects of our worthy parents in perpetuall obliuion vnder ground , then haue published them thus to the world . Alas , I would to God it had beene in our power to haue hid these things , without the mischiefes before expressed , belieue vs assuredly the world then should neuer haue had knowledge of them , but it was not in our power , their facts were so publique to the world , & better known vnto our state then to our selues . But it will still be said , if such men of worth , and great vertue , dealt in such matters , why should wee so much exclaime against the Iesuits ? Is their fault so haynous therein aboue the others ? To this I aunswer , that the Iesuits faults are much more , as you also will confesse , if you cōsider all circumstances well . For first , what was done by these worthy men , was done almost in the first heate of change of Religion , wherin both more passion might mooue , and greater hopes of recouery of religion stirre them vp to such attempts . Besides , their hopes of sincere dealing in such as should haue concurred in those actions meerely for religion , & not of ambition , might draw them on to follow such deuises . For as then the ambitious intentions of the Spaniards were not discouered vnto them ; which once appearing , such as liued , and saw how little sinceritie or care of Gods cause they had , ( but meerely sought after the Crowne , and the subuersion of our country ) not onely repented them of theyr former dealings , but also detested , and hated such proceedings : as was manifest in Cadinall Allen : and doubtlesse would so haue happened in the rest , if they had liued to haue seen the handling of matters since . But for the Iesuits they are so headlong , and violent in these courses , that they seeme no more to regard the good of our Country , or estate thereof , then the Spaniards themselues . For notwithstanding the manifest intentions of conquest , and subuersion by the Spaniards intended , yet do they so concurre with them , as whereas the Spaniard of himselfe seemeth slow , they pricke him on continually with plots & suggestions . Witnes Fa : Parsons actions concerning two seuerall Nauies which miscaried : in one of which Ma : Doctor Stillington tooke his death : of the other since he speaketh in a letter writ from Rome to Ma. Thomas Fitzherbert . Witnes this the late attempt in Ireland , in which Fa : Archer , an Irish Iesuite was a great actor . VVho will not say now , that the Iesuits are much more to be blamed then any of the former woorthy persons , sith they desist not to prosecute that , which by some of them was afterwards disliked , & continue an offence begun , yea and vppon knowledge of the infinite deformitie thereof , into which the other saw not so deepely , as is probable . Hauing thus giuen you some light , whereby you may trulie see into the drift & end of the foresaid Treatise of Important considerations , & the reasons we haue to purge our selues of such inexcusable practises , ( for the which hetherto wee haue all smarted ) and the causes wee haue , not onely to condemne those facts , and attempts , ( how woorthy soeuer the persons were , that dealt therein ) but also to exclaime against those , that still runne such disloiall races , and with all our power and might , not onely to disclaime , but also resist , and reueale such vndutifull practises , and indeuours , of her Maiesties disloyall , yet naturall subiects , be they what they may be , and of what condition , and quality they will be , ( for no condition , or qualitie may patronize disloyaltie : ) hauing I say , giuen you some light hereof , let vs now consider , vvhat particuler obiections , ( or indeed barren exclamations ) this Father maketh against this Treatise . VVe will let passe his vaine quipping at sundry : and seculer : beeing both scurrilous , and irreligious , in abusing the phrase of seculer priests vsed , and approued alwaies in Gods Church , with great reuerence to the order of priesthood , which he not without note of contempt , ioyneth with an allusion vnto secular minds and desires ; saying , not onely secular in order , but also in mind , hart , and desires , making the word secular in one sentence to be predicatum indifferently , and in like sence ( as a man would thinke ) vnto order , mind , harts , & desires , & so may a man say , ordo saecularis , mens saecularis , corda saecularia , desideria saecularia , in one , and the same prophane vnderstanding , which how irreligiously it soundeth from the mouth of a religious man , iudge you . Verily if he had been carefull of his penne , he might haue seuered the sentences at the least so , as the sence of the word might haue appeared diuers , and therein haue shewed a reuerent respect to priesthood , howsoeuer he had otherwise despised our persons . But let vs see I pray you , what he saith to our mislike of certaine Treatises , letters , and reports written , & made in diuers parts of the world . All that hee sayth to this matter , is nothing but a shufling vp of graue , and worthy men of our nation , who haue writ or dealt in such affaires ; but whether therein they did wel or ill , hee neuer sheweth by any reason or proofe in the world . Onely he exclaimeth at vs , as enuious , and malicious , & such as haue sold our tongues to the common enemy . This kinde of shifting dealing is common , & ordinarie with this father , but how simple in the sight of wise men , I leaue you to cōsider . If it be a sufficient proofe , or excuse in euery particuler fact , viz. such a graue , and woorthy man did the like , what matter of fact may not be excused ? Did not S. Cyprian rebaptize such as had beene baptized before by heretiques ? Is it therefore vppon this ground a sufficient warrant to anie man to rebaptize such as are baptized by protestants ? Haue not diuers Saints , and Martirs , done diuers things not to be imitated of the generations following ? What good conclusion then is this ? Graue and worthy men haue writ , and dealt in this affaire , therefore it is good , conuenient , and lawfull . If such graue and worthy men had infallibilitie in their actions , ( which Saints in this life haue not had ) then such an infallible inference might be made , but not otherwise . Therefore good Fa : you should not onely haue produced the actions of such men , but also the reasons , and grounds of their actions , and proued them to haue been good and currant , by some conuincing reason and proofe : but this you neuer touch . Any shadow seemeth sufficient to you to bleere mens eyes , but this may not serue your turne . Wise and graue men haue erred , and sometimes doe erre ; and yet remaine both wise , and graue . Wee are not Angels who intuitiuè see into the natures of things , what is conuenient , or inconuenient ; but we are men subiect to passion , and mutability , gathering things à posteriore , whereof follow manie errors , and imperfections in our actions . And heere-vppon it commeth , that posteriores cogitationes solent esse meliores ; and we often finde that by experience , which at the first we were ignorant of . A notable example heereof we haue in this very matter by Card : Allen , both a graue , and a wise man , ( as all the world knoweth . ) For he was somwhat faultie in the beginning in this kinde ( as by a certaine treatise wherein his finger was , is too too manifest , ) yet doe we well know , that in his latter time this worthy prelate was such an enemie vnto those proceedings , as he neuer could endure to heare of them , and much complained of the proceedings of some Iesuits therein , as many can witnes . Now then eyther Fa : Parsons must condemne the former actions of this worthie man as erroneous ( as well as we doe ) or else disclaime from his latter proceedings , being not in the same course with the first . Yet heere by the way I must tell you , that I verily think , that this worthy man was drawne vnto these proceedings , more by others , then of his owne nature ; and I haue no small reasons to induce me thereto : For first you know the generall expectance of the whole world , concerning the Armado of 1588. as well for the greatnes thereof , as the opinion of the Spaniards sincere pretence of Religion , which was nothing so . This conceite might draw the good Card : to be deceaued , as well as Pope Sixtus , who ( it is well knowne ) was drawne into a conceite thereof , and deceaued by them . Secondly , you are not ignorant , that euen against that pretended inuasion , he was aduanced vnto the honour , and dignity of a Prince , which might moue a right good man. And that he had an opinion of a moderate course to haue been taken by the Spaniards in that attempt ; his owne words in the said treatise doe plainly shew , saying , that he was made Card : for the sweeter managing of things in our Country after the conquest . Yet I cannot , but much wonder at this honest Fa : that in his marginall notes vpon this point , he was so blind , or so bold , as to cite Doctor Saunders works de visibili Monarchia , and de schismate Anglicano ; which works containe so many irreuerent speeches , and the divulging of such odious matters against her Maiestie , and her noble progenitors , as the vntruths of some , and the incertainty of others considered , could not but irritate the most Christian Cath : and patient Prince in the world . But because the things are not meete to be repeated , yea , are scandalous to proceede from an English man ; I referre my selfe for proofe heereof to euery man , that hath read the bookes . I would to God so worthy a man had not stayned his works , with such stuffe in these times , then would I dare to say , that he had beene the greatest honour to his Country , and the worthiest man of the world . The like I may say of Didamus veridicus : For it is well knowne , that although the man was most worthie , and one of the most famous Clarks of this age , yet was he very cholerick , and would sometimes bite more , then was conuenient . But as for Philopater and Perni , I scorne to think of such foolish stuffe , hatcht by this Fa : and Fa : Creswell . And this shall serue in aunswer of the first point , leauing euery man of indifferencie to iudge , whether such proceedings in matters of state , to the ruine , & ouerthrow of our Prince , and Country , daily practised by the Iesuits ( wherewith they are charged in the treatise of Important considerations ) be sufficiently iustified by the example of such like proceedings in other men , & whether there be any wrong done by vs , in disliking of such courses , in those worthy men , whereof some of themselues afterwards disliked . Although I was purposed to haue omitted that point , because I thinke you shall shortly see a particuler Treatise therof , yet will I now say a word or two , briefely of it . And the rather I will so doe , in that I see Ma. Doctor Ely in his notes vpon the Apologie somewhat distasting the mention thereof , induced ( as I verily thinke ) by this onely respect , that our state , being onely Protestants , and in nothing consenting vnto the authoritie of the sea of Rome , therefore there should be no reason , why the Pope should in any thing ( necessarie , or conuenient for our Church ) stay , or respect the consent or permission of our Prince , notwithstanding the pretence of the said law of Premunire . But to satisfie in part Ma. Doctor , and whosoeuer els in this point , I thought good to add this consideration or motion , which drew mee , and others of vs , to make the matter more weighty , & vrgent , then it seemeth Ma. Doctor Ely , and others apprehend . You must therefore vnderstand , that the chiefest occasion of this law at the first was , to preuent many mischiefes , & inconueniences , which happened heere in our Realme , by diuers priuiledges and indults , that were procured from Rome by surreption , vniust fauours , and false informations , by vertue of which indults and priuiledges , many contentions arose , aswell amongst the seculer Clergie , as the religious , yea often times to the spilling of blood . To auoyde these so great inconueniences , our Cath : Kings , with the free and full consent of all the Clergie , and temporalty , enacted that no such graunt , procured from Rome , should be executed within the dominions of England , vppon the penalties specified in the said statute , vntill the Kings consent thereto were first obtayned . Now then to the purpose , if his holines had instituted any vsuall authoritie , heeretofore accepted by our Kings & Clergie , and in vse in Cath : times amongst vs , and by the ordinary course of law ( to wit by election or otherwise ) ex plenitudine potestatis , ( so that we had had sufficient notice thereof , to bind vs to obedience ) it may be said , that heerein the offence vnto the Cath : law of premunire , had been onely a materiall offence , if any at all , because we may iudge all Princes to be bound in conscience , to become Cath : and to accept , and concurre with such ordinances of his Holinesse , as are vsuall , or necessary for the vpholding of the Ecclesiasticall Hierarchie of Christes church . As now her Maiestie , being a Protestant , and so perswaded in conscience , is bound to concur & accept of such Ecclesiasticall subordination , as is both vsuall and necessary for the preseruing of the Protestants Church , and Clergie . But to accept and admit of an extrauagant iurisdiction , vnusuall not only in the Church of England , but also in the whole church of Christ , from the tyme of Christ himselfe vnto these dayes , and such an one , as was altogether vnnecessary for our Church , yea very hurtful both to our poore afflicted Cath : and state also , ( as wee will shew at large hereafter , if occasion be offered ) could not ( in my opinion ) but draw after it the penalties of the law aforesaid , & iustly . For if that law were iust , when it was first instituted , it not beeing abrogated , is still iust , and in force . Well then , this authoritie of the Archpriest being such an exorbitant , vnusuall , and inconuenient iurisdiction , & therefore such an one as could not in conscience bind any Catho : Prince to admit thereof , or consent thereto ( were the times Catholick ) I doe not see why the same reason doth not hold now with vs in these times , and how any man can be excused from the penaltie of that law , in admitting an externall iurisdiction without the knowledge of theyr Prince , and against her consent , vnto which if shee were a Catholick , shee were not bound to consent , but contrariwise to repugne . This I say is wilfully , without all reason or necessity , to contemne her princely prerogatiue , and therfore no excuse of religion , conscience , or the like ▪ can ( in my conceit ) free any man , thus accepting of this authority at the first , but meere ignorance of the law , and case which I thinke was invincible in most . The third point of the argument of this worke of Important considerations , is so falsly & so maliciously related by him , that ( belieue me ) it doth not a little amaze me , to consider so strange boldnes in a man of his coate . First hee saith , that in the said booke we affirme : that neither the Pope , nor any other Ecclesiasticall power , hath authority to restraine , punish , or represse , by way of force , or armes immediatly , or by others , any christian temporall Prince whatsoeuer , for anie delict of heresie , Apostasie , impugnation of Christian fayth , extirpation of religion , or other crime whatsoeuer , though neuer so much danger , or damage should ensue by his default to the Common wealth , or the rest of Christendome . If any liuing man vnder heauen ( reading the aforesaid discourse ) doe finde any such speech , as this heere deliuered by this vnhonest Iesuit , let all that hee hath said , be belieued against vs : yea I say moreouer , if any man of indifferencie , do gather any such meaning , or intention in the foresaid Treatise directly , or indirectly deliuered , by any phrase or sentence whatsoeuer , I will say , what he will haue me . How wicked , and spightfull a collection then this of Father Parsons is , Iudge you . All that is said to this purpose in that Treatise , is this , in the 37. page . Secondly , we doe acknowledge by our learning , ( secluding all Machiauilian Maximes ) that Ecclesiasticall persons , by vertue of their calling , are onely to meddle with praying , preaching , and administring the Sacraments , and such other like spirituall functions , and not to studie how to murder Princes , nor to licitate kingdoms , nor to intrude themselues into matters of state , successions , and inuasions , as Frier George did in Pannonia , to the vtter ruine of that beautifull Realme . Let any man of reason say , whether this be not a most Catholick and true discourse , or whether out of this , any such irreligious paradox ( as fa : Parsons affirmeth ) may iustly be deduced . And note here by the way , that all this speech is of inferior Ecclesiasticall persons , not of the Pope , for that is afterward touched precisely by it selfe . Note also that it is said , that Ecclesiasticall persons , by vertue of theyr calling , that is , as they are persons spirituall , are onely to meddle with praying , preaching , and administring of the Sacraments . &c. Which is so true a Position , and Catholick , as no Catholick dare to denie it , the institution therof from Christ himselfe beeing to no other end . Yet you must vnderstand , that many times ecclesiasticall vocation , is also ioyned vvith temporall iurisdiction , as now in the Popedome , & in diuers Bishopricks in Germanie , and some heere in England , if I be not deceaued . We doe not denie , but such ecclesiastical persons as they , being also temporall Princes , may execute temporall lawes , and punish etiam quo ad vitam , et necem , theyr subiects , and those that liue vnder theyr gouernment : but as he is a Bishop or spirituall person , hee cannot muster souldiers , beare armes , or march against his enemies in the field . But you perhaps will say then , that an Ecclesiasticall person may not defend his right by force , when otherwise he cannot , & by that meanes he shall be subiect to all incursions of thieues , murtherers , & other barbarous and wicked people . To this I aunswer , that as he is a man , and therewith enioying all the priuiledges of the law of nature , hee may defend himselfe in such cases , not defensoriè onely , but also offensiué , not onely by bare resisting , but euen by striking , wounding , slaying , &c. And heereupon he may take armes in his own , or countries defence : ( such I meane as in their precincts haue absolute authority ) but this is not as he is an ecclesiasticall person , but as he is a ciuill Magistrate , and enioyeth the freedom of the law of nature , which he looseth not by beeing ecclesiasticall , seculer , or religious . And vppon these grounds oftentimes haue Religious men defended their houses , and Monasteries with armes , and iustly . But that ecclesiasticall persons , as they are ecclesiasticall , should goe about to reduce either Pagans , Turkes , or hereticks by force , and dint of sword , by poysoning , or murdering of Princes , by solliciting rebellions , or inuasions , to the destruction of their Prince or country ▪ leauing thereby the ordinarie meanes of preaching , and teaching , with sufferings , and bloodsheddings cōmaunded by Christ , and by himselfe , and his disciples , and all former Christians practized , is scandalous , not religious , Pagan like , & not Christian like . Could not Christ ( thinke you ) haue enforced the Iewes to the Gospell , hauing so many legions of Angels at his commaunde ? Were not the Iewes as much bound to harken vnto him , and follow his doctrine , as the Protestants , or any other can be to vs ? Or can wee thinke that Christ did not cōmaund the best way , when he sayd vnto his disciples , euntes in mundum vniuersum praedicate euangelium omni creaturae : qui crediderit , et baptizatus fuerit , saluus erit , qui veró non crediderit , condemnabitur ? Did he not hereby leaue it to the liberty , and freedome of the hearers , whether they would beleeue , or not ? Or did he commaund thē to murder or take weapons against such , as would not beleeue them ? or could hee not haue subdued the whole world by force of armes , vnto the Gospell , if hee would ? If then Christ gaue these directions , why should we seeke new stratagems for conuersions of countries ? But you will say vnto mee , that our Protestants haue beene of the Church , that they are Christians , & by their baptisme borne true subiects vnto Christes church , and afterwards are revolted from theyr due obedience , which they owe vnto her : wherefore , they may be constrained vnto their obedience againe as well , as any naturall subiect rebelling from his naturall Prince vnto his temporall obedience . To this I aunswer , first , that the case is not all one : for why , the obedience of a subiect to his temporall Prince , consisteth onely in the vvill , which is in euery mans power within himselfe , but the obedience of euery Christian catho : to Gods church , consisteth as well in the vnderstanding as the wil , and chiefly in the vnderstanding , which ought to direct the will. Now I thinke all men know , that the vnderstanding of a man cannot be forced by any , to this , or that ; but as it is informed and conuinced by reason . For who is he that can enforce his vnderstanding to iudge it to be midnight , and extreame darknes , when the Sun shineth at noone-time of the day ? Whereuppon it followeth , that there is more reason , & lesse difficultie for a temporall Prince to enforce his subiects to temporall obedience , then for the Church by temporall force to constraine Countries and kingdoms vnto the fayth . But you will againe obiect , that by the same reason , a Catho : Prince , or Bishop in his owne absolute dominion , or soueraigntie , may not , by the force of the lawes of the Church , or state , enforce any subiect to liue a Cath : but hee may follow what religion he list ; which would breed both confusion in the Church , and cōmon-wealth quickly . To this I say , that there are two things to be considered in this case ; the first is his religion , the second is his example , whereby there ariseth not onely danger , & hurt vnto the Church , & sound members thereof , but also damage vnto the setled Common-wealth , and preiudice vnto the Prince in his quiet estate , in that by one , or two particuler peeuish mens example , deuision and strife may arise in his Common-wealth , to the ruine or subuersion thereof by inward mutinies , and dissention , which ordinarily followeth nouelties , and innouations . For the first part , which is his difformity in fayth and religion , the Clergie , or Bishop , hath to looke vnto it , and reforme it if he can ; if hee cannot , but findeth him obstinate in his opinions , he executeth the spirituall law vpon him , by the sword of excommunication , whereby hee is spiritually slaine and cut off from Christes flock . Which if hee still continue , then doth the Church iudge him not onely withered in the branch , but also dead in the roote , and therefore as a dead tree , deliuereth him vp vnto the seculer power , to execute law & iustice vppon him . Where note , that the Church taketh not away his life , but contrariwise , deliuering him vp vnto the seculer power , intreateth for him : and then doth the Prince , or seculer Magistrate , execute the sentence of death vppon him , as a person dangerous to the state of his Realme , and his other good and loyall subiects for the reasons aboue-said . These kinde of proceedings in Gods church , shew how far shee hath euer been from so violent courses , as to plant religion , and fayth , by blood ; and that vnto a Clergie person , as he is a Clergie person , the power of life and death belongeth not ; neither doe such proceedings in deede imitate the clemencie of Christ , whom the Church and Clergie ( framed vnto him ) should imitate . Neither did the Bishops in the primitiue church , put to death such hereticks , as fell from theyr fayth , and taught false doctrine , ( as they might haue doone many times , no doubt , especially if priuate murmurings in such cases had beene tolerable . ) S. Bernard , a religious man , dealing with S. William , Duke of Aquitaine , ( a great persecuter of gods people at that time , did not seeke to poyson , or murder him secretly , to rid the world of him , and yet hee had him priuately for some time together in his Monasterie , where hee might with great facility haue done it : neither did he seeke to suggest practises against him in his owne country , or invasions from the King of Fraunce , or other Princes adioyning , but to win him by wholsome instructions , spirituall conferences , and the like . Neither did the Pope at that time seeke his subuersion , but his reformation , sending perswasiue messages vnto him to desist , yea and embassages by the said holy Saint Bernard , to moue him to better courses : and by these kind & wholsome means praying continually for his conuersion with patience , and expectance , they won him from a persecuter , and a very wicked man , to become the rarest penitent , and strangest paterne of austerity in the world . Whereby of a vessell of ignominie and reproch , he became a vessel of glory , and of a bad man , a Saint . VVhy should wee not haue delt so with our prince , and state , by prayers and supplications , if they had beene neuer such cruell persecuters , which ( all occasions that haue beene giuen them beeing well considered ) wee cannot iustly affirme , who knoweth whether God by such prayers , and meanes , would not haue conuerted their harts to other courses , sith the harts of Kings are in the hands of God. But saith Fa : Parsons , this paradox tasteth of Lutheranisme & Anabaptisme . We answer , that by Gods grace , we are as far off from either Luthers , or the Anabaptists doctrine , as hee , or any of his Societie . Neither doe we either denie externall force , or ciuill Magistrate , or dispute ( as Martin Luther is said to haue done ) to proue that it is not lawfull to wage warre against the Turk . We haue not in all this discourse once gone about to affirme , much lesse to proue , that any one king may not vpon iust causes , make warre against another . Nay , we did neuer say , that cause might not be giuen of such iust warre euen in some case of religion : but leaue that as a matter not pertinent to be handled of vs at this time . This onely wee haue said , and doe say , that religious men or priests , haue not to doe with kingdoms , and those of our owne Nation , which haue dealt in such affaires against their prince , and country ▪ we do therein condemne their actions , and disclaime from them , as vndutifull and vnpleasant to all true English natures . And we wish also with all our harts , that no Pope , or other Clergie person , had euer medled therein to exasperate our prince & state against vs at home . Yet if we had generally kept our fingers from such matters , howsoeuer they had been attempted by forrainers , wee are perswaded , that the wisedome of our prince , and state , would not haue imputed their actions vnto vs , in whom wee could not haue had so much interest , as to infringe either their wils or indeuours . But it beeing otherwise too euident , that some haue intermedled in such matters ( though sore against our wills ) we can doe no lesse , but acknowledge it to be a fault , and woorthy of punishment : humbly prostrating our petitions at the feete of her Maiesty , that it will please her to make distinction of the innocent , and such as neuer haue offended in this kinde , from those , that haue intangled themselues in such monstrous , and vnnaturall attempts ; that poore harmelesse innocents , and such as with their soules loue her person , and with their blood are ready to defend her estate , and their countrey , ( as I am perswaded all the Catholicks in England are , which remaine vntainted with Iesuitisme ) may not perish for the offences of others . Another falshood of this Fa : is in relating another place in the 38 page of the aforesaid Treatise of Important considerations , which he thus reporteth , viz. The word of the spirit , and not the sword of the flesh , or any arme of man , is that which giueth life , and beautie to the Cath : Church , and that the promise made to Saint Peter , is a sure , and sufficient ground to defend Catholick religion without armes . Thus he relateth our words , and then exclaimeth against the paradox forsooth . How sincerely & truly he setteth our words downe , you shall see , and thereby iudge of his honestie . Our words are no other then these . The Catholicke fayth , for her stabilitie and continuance , hath no neede of trecherie , or rebellion . The promise made to S. Peter is her sure ground , and is more dishonoured with treasons , & wicked policies of carnall men , then any way furthered or aduaunced . The word of the spirit , and not the sword of the flesh , or any arme of man is that , which giueth life or beautie to the Cath : Church . Confer I beseech you , this speech deliuered as it was by vs , & as Fa : Parsons relateth it , and see whether he hath plaied the part of a faithfull and honest relator . First therefore before we enter into his false dealings herein , it is most euident in the iudgement of wise men , that armes , & weapons neuer beautifie Gods Church , or the Catholick faith , howsoeuer they may be necessary or conuenient , sometimes to defend the same frō incursions of aduersaries , or oppressions of Infidels , Turks , or Hereticks , as in some sort is before expressed . For all beauty of the Catho : Church , consisteth in vnitie , and consent of doctrine , true , and reuerend administration of Sacraments , true , and sincere preaching of Gods word , holy obseruations of the rights , and ceremonies thereof , and the like . In these consist the beauty of the Catho : Church , and Religion , and not in any arme of man , or sword of flesh , as all men I think will confesse . But see now his fidelity . In the place of this sentence , set : the promise made to S. Peter , is her sure ground , and is more dishonoured with treasons , &c. He putteth downe these words : The promise made to S. Peter , is a sure , & sufficient ground to defend Catho : Religion without armes . Who would thinke a religious man would deale so falsly in relating one poore sentence ? verily if he were not a Iesuit , I would think it impossible . What vncōscionable dealing is it in him to add vnto our words ( sufficient ) therby to make apparance , as though we excluded all meanes else of preseruation of Gods Church , but onely relying vpon that promise to S. Peter , without any other indeauours ? Would he haue the world to think vs so simple , as that we doe not know , that God vseth secondarie meanes , and mens particuler indeauours , both for the aduancement of his Church , as also the continuance thereof , as well as he did for the Sinagogue of the Iewes ? Or will hee make it a necessary consequent , because we exclude treasons , and wicked policies of carnall men : therefore we exclude all honest , iust , and lawfull meanes of defending , or propagating of Gods cause ? How doth this follow , vnlesse there be no other meanes , but by treasons , and wicked policies , which none but wicked persons will affirme , and such as will make treasons , and wicked policies acceptable sacrifices vnto Christ ? as though God delighted in wickednes , or had neede of such meanes , to defend what he hath erected in manu forti , et brachio excelso : No , no ; wee say further , to confirme our former proposition , that although God doth vse second causes in diuers his works , and the helpe , or concurrence of man in the aduauncing of his Church , yet is his promise made to S. Peter so sure a ground , that if it were possible , that all mens indeauours should surcease , yet should not his Church faile . Ipse enim dixit , for he hath said , it shall not faile , nor hell gates preuaile against it . And further wee affirme to strengthen , and stablish the second part , that treasons , and wicked policies of men , are so farre from aduauncing Gods cause , that both he , and his cause are much disgraced : he dishonoured , and his cause much hindered thereby . Now let Fa : Parsons preferre these propositions to the Inquisition , and we will be defendants , and yet in all things submit our selues , actions , and words , vnto the iudgements of Christes spouse , as willingly , and readily as any Iesuit , or Christian else ( by Gods grace ) in the world . Furthermore , also he foysteth these words in the taile of our sentence , ( to defend Catho : Religion without armes ) which are his owne additions , and no words of ours . These vnfaithfull dealings cannot hold out : God will not be mocked with his iuglings , and shiftings ; truth will be seene doe , what Fa : Parsons can doe , with all his cunning shifts . To conclude therefore vpon the ground layed , we say againe , and with as great cōfidence affirme as before ; that all arguments brought to the contrary of this we haue said , whether by the Iesuits , or any other disloyall subiect , they be mere vntrue Sophistications , and therefore not to be beleeued . And as for the labour which Fa : Parsons hath bestowed , in citing of authors , hee hath done , but as Ma : Lyster did in his Libell of schisme , labour about a matter not in controuersie , alwayes flying the true point of difference betwixt vs. For in all the worke of Important considerations , the Popes indirect authority in temporalibus is not called in question , nor any one word spoken thereof ; neither is the power of deposing Princes examined or medled with-all , onely therein we complaine of treasonable practises , and attempts against our Prince , and state , by some of her disloyall subiects , & of false subordinations , and informations to his Holines ; whereby some Popes haue been drawne to consent , and enter into such inconuenient courses . And what we speake of resisting the Pope , is not in respect of his ecclesiasticall authority ( whereof we onely speake , ) but of hostile inuasion , against which to defend our selues , and Country , we are taught by the very law of nature , without respect of person , or intention of the Inuader , as I shall shew manifestly in the aunswer to that poynt obiected . By this you may see , whether the reasons , and authorities alledged by Fa : Parsons , be not sophistications , and false arguments ( as he vrgeth them , and draweth conclusions from them , ) in that he proceedeth vpon a false ground , and maketh therevpon vntrue illations . Because forsooth the Pope hath indirectam potestatem etiam in temporalibus ( according to the common opinion , ) that is , such power as is necessary for the reformation of the subiects of Christes Church ; therefore if he goe about to transferre gentem in gentem , ( which is onely a power belonging vnto almighty God ) or to inuade with weapons in hostile manner , he is not to be resisted . This is the conclusion he would , and must inferre vpon the reasons , and authorities alledged by him ; or else he proueth nothing against vs. VVhich conclusion how false , and absurd it is , both against the law of Nature , and common practise of the world , I leaue euery man of wit , and wisedom to iudge . Now whereas in the 4. point , he vrgeth against vs these words , that if the Pope should come in person with an Armie , where we are , vnder pretence to establish catholick Religion by force : we would oppose our selues against him , and spend the best blood in our bodies in that quarrell , &c. and termeth it a braue , and resolute protestation against the Pope . This fellow was ashamed to relate , what we had spoken concerning our obedience , and loue to the Sea Apostolick immediatly before , which was , that if eyther his Holines should come in person , or send some Damianus or Augustine , &c. we would lye at his , or their feete ▪ and defend with them the Catholicke fayth by sacred Scripture , and authority of the Church , though it cost vs our liues . This saying ( which cannot but shew our sincerity towards Gods Church , and Vicar generall to all charitable men ) this good Fa : left out of purpose , snatching onely at our heeles like a Cur , and taking the ends of speeches to cōment vpon at his pleasure . But to shew you that Fa : Parsons cunning wit cannot infringe our protestation ( as hee termeth it ) of resisting the Pope , if he come with Armes to inuade , though with pretence of Religion ; you shall vnderstand first , that ( as wee haue often said ) euery man is bound by the law of Nature , to defend his life , his Country , and freedome of both . Vpon which irrefragable ground , I doe inferre this sequell : that if any man in the world , vnder what pretence so euer , doe enter the bounds of my Country , with fire , and sword in hostile manner , ( by which of necessity , spoile of my Country , subuersion of the state , oppression of Innocents , losse of my life , or friends will ensue ) I am not onely patronized therein to defend my selfe , friends , and Country , opposing my selfe against such euils , but also am bound thereto . Neither therein can I iustly be said to resist , or impugne the Catho : Religion , or defend heresie , in that I onely stand directly for that , which the law of nature bindeth me vnto . And if any hinderance thereby of Cath : Religion should follow , it were not to be imputed vnto me , not intending any such impeachment , or damage to Gods Church , nor doing any act , which of it selfe tendeth to any such end . Secondly , it is well knowne vnto me , that Christ hath left other meanes , by preaching , teaching , and good example of life , for the conuersion of Infidels , Hereticks , or sinners , and to me it is not knowne , that Christes will is , that my Countrey shall be conuerted by the sword , and not by his word , and such other holy meanes : Yea , it rather appeareth vnto me , that our relapsed Country is to be conuerted by the way , and meanes that Christ himselfe , and his Apostles vsed , and not by such bloody , and desperate courses . Therefore I may , and am bound , rather to cleaue vnto that meane , then to any other extreame , or vnnaturall enterprises . Thirdly , we see by practise , that GOD hath euer disfauoured such attempts , to the admirable preseruation both of her Maiestie , and our Country , which may giue vs iust cause to think , that God is not pleased with such violent courses . Fourthly , whatsoeuer cause may be in a forrainer , or in the Pope himselfe to impugne , or inuade our country , which may make his quarrell iust , and lawfull on his part , yet am not I to take notice thereof . Yea , though the cause were euidently iust in my knowledge , and conscience , yet I am not bound to leaue my countrey , and assist him . For the common good of my country , and weale thereof , is to be preferred before the particuler right of any person vvhatsoeuer . And hereupon it falleth out , that many times the inuader or oppugner , hath iust cause to inuade with armes , and therein doth no iniustice ; and yet for all that , on the contrarie side , the defendants may iustly by force of armes keepe , & defend themselues , and countrey , from such hostile incursions , their liberties and country beeing more deere vnto them , then the righting of any particuler parson . For if a priuate person , possessing goods or lands in controuersie , be not bound in conscience to forsake them , and deliuer them vp vnto the owners ( who by sentence of law hath recouered them ) vntill such time as by execution of the ciuill Magistrats or sherieffe , the possession thereof be giuen from him , what reason is there that a whole country , wherein alwaies are many innocents , not guilty of any iust cause of such oppressions , should yeeld vp their rights , and become slaues and vassalles to forrainers , loosing the rights and priuiledges of their country ? But you will say vnto me , that neyther the Pope is a forrayner in respect of his authority , and dominion , extending ouer the whole world , neither is this cause , beeing Catholicke religion , his particuler right , but the right , which ought to be in euery creature . To the first I aunswer , that notwithstanding that the Pope , according to his spirituall authority , might be said to be no forrainer , yet if he come as an Inuader , vnder what pretence soeuer , hee may be said to vs a forrayner , in that his power consisteth of forrainers , and cruell souldiers , by whose villanie , many miseries and oppressions , were sure to light vppon innocents , and vtter spoyle vpon our whole country . Neyther were I bound to belieue the Pope , though hee should affirme the contrary ; because the wills of souldiers , ( by whō such villanies and oppressions would be committed ) could not be in his power . And therefore I say , that if the Pope could bring Christ with him in person , or an army of Angels , whereby we might be assured , that reformation should follow without oppressions , or extreame miseries and calamities : then we might take part with him : but if he come with an armie of men , ( and such men as souldiers are , whom all villanies follow ) he must not blame vs , if to auoyd such euils , we sticke to the law of nature , and defend our selues , our Prince , and country . And heereupon it is , that we say wee be perswaded , that priests of what order soeuer , ought not by force of armes , to plant or water the Catholick faith , but in spiritu lenitatis , et mansuetudinis , to propagate and defend it : considering the inconueniences , which follow armes , and inuasions , and the little fruit , that commeth thereof , or the small number of Catholicks that arise thereby , so little good example of vertue beeing giuen by souldiers , especially Spaniards . Yet by the way I may not omit to note againe Father Pars : his perfidious dealing , in displacing of the word defend , saying , that no priests ought to plant , water , or defend , vvhich followeth not in our sentence . For a man may by armes somtimes defend a thing got , which by armes he could not iustlie get . As for example , Munks or religious men , may not get themselues Monasteries or lands by force of armes , but hauing iustly got them otherwise , and hauing an absolute authoritie within their precincts , they may by force keepe them from such forrainers , as vniustly inuade thē , if otherwise they cannot . So may and ought religious men , and priests , to defend catholick countries from the incursions of the Turke , Infidels , or hereticks , as oft times they haue done . But it followeth not therfore , that they may goe into the countreys of Infidels in hostile manner with armes , onely to plant the catholick faith by force . But this is after the old fashion of Fa : Parsons iust dealings . I could heere vrge him with an obiection , which would please him but a little ; to wit , that if euery man be bound to assist the Pope , inuading as he would haue him , it is for that the cause he pretendeth is iust . And then doe I say secundum magis , et minus , that not onely the Pope , but euery Prince , or other person , comming with force of Armes into any Countrey is to be receaued , and assisted by the inhabitants , and subiects of the Country , if his cause be knowne to be iust vnder payne of deadly sinne . Which if it be true , why then did not his great Maiestie of Spayne , in Paule the fourths time , restore Naples vnto the sea of Rome , when as Caraff inuaded the same with force of armes ? The world will say , and the Pope himselfe will affirme , that he hath more right thereto , then the Spaniard : how chaunced it then that hee kept it by force frō the Pope , & still doth ? See what confusion would follow Fa : Parsons doctrine . But he will say , that religion is not onely a matter of iustice , but also of necessity , binding all men thereunto . To this I aunswer , that though it be a thing of necessity , yet is not this necessity of force , or compulsion , but vpon election , as Christ left it : and euery man hath in his free will , whether hee vvill accept of Gods grace offered , or no. Neither can any law , or necessity in the world , contradict or impeach the law of nature , borne with man , and alwaies remaining in him . To the 5. poynt obiected by Fa : Parsons , wee haue said sufficient already , for our honest and lawfull excuse , in blaming or condemning of some actions , done by worthy men , not therby defaming , or condemning such persons , but such acts , as errors , in these worthy persons . Which is not ( as hee falsly affirmeth ) to cast any fault vpon any worthy person or Martyr , or to defame them in any sort : sith the facts imputed vnto them , were too too well knowne vnto the state , and too publique vnto the world . Whereby wee were but constrained to purge our selues , as guiltlesse of any such matter ; rather choosing that the fault that was , should fall vpon particuler men , dealers therein , and so knowne to be to the world , then vpon the whole company of innocent priests , & Cath : vvhich was ( I thinke ) but according to the rules both of iustice and charity . And whereas it is sayd , that if some of vs had beene of the counsell , and knowing as much as we doe know , wee should haue giuen our cōsents to straight lawes , for the suppressing , and preuenting of such wicked designements ; you must vnderstand , that this is deliuered but as the particuler speech of some few , and not of all in generall ( as Fa : Parsons falsly setteth downe . ) Neither did we say , that we would haue giuen our consents to that , which hath beene done against Catho : as he maliciously peruerteth our words , but onely to some straight lawes , for the suppressing and preuenting of such wicked designments . Which I thinke any good Common-wealths man in the world , of what religion soeuer , vvould haue done , and could haue done no lesse , then haue yeelded , and giuen consent to make some straight lawes for preuenting the ruine , and subuersion of his prince and country , vnlesse he had beene perfidious vnto his prince , and trayterous to his country . But by your leaue Fa : Parsons , these lawes should haue haue been made to haue brideled such good fellowes , as your selfe , and others , that haue dealt so perfidiously with theyr prince and countrey , and not generally , against all priests and Catholicks . And we perswade our selues , they had not been made so generall , if her Maiestie , and the state , had seene into the rootes of such proceedings , and knowne that they had growne only from some few particuler persons , such as your selfe , and not from the body or most part of priests , and Catholicks . Which the state could not see into & discerne from the beginning , beeing ignorant of the distinction which ought to be made betweene vs and your fellowes : and therfore is not so much to be cried out against , and defamed for tyrannie ( this ignorance considered ) as by you her highnesse , her lawes , and gouernment haue beene traduced : making your selues thereby , and by others , the wicked enterprises , the principall , and chiefe cause of all such straight , and bloodie lawes . But rather is her Maiestie , and the state to be excused , and implored for more pitty and compassion towards vs for the time to com : sith they now see farther into the true rootes , springs , and causes , from whence , and from whom such attempts haue come . Neither is Fa : Parsons recapitulation of some lawes made , and some executed before their comming into England , a sufficient excuse ; because it is well known that her Maiestie , and the state , was diuers times ( as by the Important considerations you may see ) irritated by sundry vndutifull attempts of her subiects , and forrainers together , before shee made anie bloody law at all . And there are many pregnant presumptions , that the Iesuits fingers were medling in some , or most of them . For there be Priests , who haue heard Fa : Parsons ( when they were Scholers in Rome ) make set Lectures for a whole Lent , ( as I remember ) of all matters , which had happened from her Maiesties beginning of her raigne : In the discourse whereof he was so ready , and could descend so farre into particuler plots , and intentions of plots , which neuer came to passe , and were vnknowne to her Maiestie , and the state , ( as in the practise concerning the Earle of Northumberland , and the like ) that you would sweare , he or his , had been in the bosome of euery such plot , and deuise . To the sixt , and last point brought in preposterously , as he commonly vseth to doe , taking his bits by snatches heere and there to make vp his gallymaufrey , it deserueth no other aunswer , then hath already beene giuen , it being no other , but a fond exaggerating of his old common points , with exclamation , and bitter words ; without reason , or proofe of any one absurdity , or vniust vntruth deliuered by vs. Which argueth his spirit to be more fraught with spite , then power , or ability . We will not aske him , which of the seauen deuils rayleth , and biteth with so many bitter words , and false calumniation vniustly , and vntruly against vs , but hartily pray God to deliuer him from all incursions of the deuill , and all Atheisme , and Machiauelisme , that he may sincerely see , how he hath offended God by his plots , and practises in abusing his poore afflicted Church in our Country , and setting dissension , and diuision in his Clergy , for the compassing of his policies , and designes , which so long as he , and his shal practise , we cannot but still intreate Cath : to forbeare the sending of their children vnto the schooles , where such maisters , as Fa : Parsons , and his associates , shall be teachers , and gouernours : but rather to send them to other Vniuersities abroad in other Countries , vntill God shall prouide better for vs. And thus we will end our aunswer , vnto the first Chapter , in which we haue beene ouer long , and tedious , because of the diuersitie of matters hudled vp therein by Fa : Parsons , after his accustomed manner , desiring the Reader to beare with vs therein , in that we were willing to open some things more largely , that such as were ignorant , or not so well acquainted with these our affaires , and the true causes of them , might see the better into the very grounds of all , which being so largely deliuered in this first chapter , we shall with more facility , and more briefly passe ouer the rest that followeth : alwayes ( as occasion happeneth ) referring you to what is deliuered at large in this first treatise . An aunswer to the second Chapter , concerning our pretended passionate spirit , in the manner of the handling of our former arguments . FA : Parsons his 2. Chap. containeth little in substance , but what hath beene said in the former , and is at large by vs aunswered : onely hee hath taken a little paynes , in speaking largely in his owne prayse , & to the commendation of some others of his owne order ; because they want good neighbours to aduaunce , and extoll them ; and in gathering together of some cholerick words , heere and there deliuered , in some of our former bookes . In which kind of style , although he , and some of his deserue the garland ; yet he omitteth not to make the best shew of aduantage thereby , that he can against vs , not looking back into himselfe , and his owne most bitter speeches , no lesse full of gall , and choler , & much more vntrue . Wherefore to aunswer that point , without farther particuler repetitions of euery word spoken in heate , which yet are but to be attributed vnto the natures of the Writers , or rather in very deede vnto the vniust , vnconscionable , and irreligious dealings of Fa : Parsons , and other his associates , with the Archpriest , against vs , whereby the natures of very good men , sometimes may be stirred vp to heat , and choler , ( as you may see in S. Hierom against Ruffinus , ) & not to the whole company of our brethren , though as the prouerb is , Loosers should haue their words . To answer this , I say , we will bestow a little paines in collecting this good Fa : patient , and charitable words , and phrases vttered against vs , in this worke of Manifestation , and place them by themselues in the end of this treatise ; desiring his Fatherhoode to set the Hares head against the Goose giblets : and then considering the innocencie , and iustice on our parts , and the wrongs , and oppressions we haue receaued from him , & his : I hope the indifferent Reader will the rather beare with the excesse of choler , vttered by some of our brethren in zeale of iustice ; the iniuries offered , exceeding farre the measure of heate on our bretherens part . But yet because some things may happily occurre in this Chapter , which the Reader may be desirous to be satisfied in : wee will briefly examine the chiefest points of moment therein , though ( beleeue me ) they be so confusedly hudled together , that the paines are greater to marshall them into any good order , then to aunswer them . In the entrance to this Chap : ( after his old accustomed manner ) he poureth vpon vs store of choler , out of his distempered stomack ; as , spite , rancour , enuie , malice , desire of reuenge , insufficiencie in wisedome , learning , and all other vertues , carried away with furie , passion , and rage of reuenge ; not caring what , or how , or of whom they say any thing , so they may vtter their gall , and disgorge their choler , vpon them whom they enuie , feare , or hate . These are the preparatiues to his discourse , whereby you may perceaue , what cause this man hath to exclaime , or take aduantage of the bitter phrases of some of our brethren . But to leaue him in his fumes : in the 20 page , after hee had related som speeches , deliuered in the preface to the Relation of Wisbich , against a letter of the Archpriest , he setteth downe the Archpriests words therein concerning that point , & calleth it a mild , and an humble kind of writing . Which being examined in the Hope of peace , and conuinced to be full of vntruthes ( and therefore rather to be tearmed , a cunning clawing Epistle , & couerture of falshood , then mild or humble , ) we remit the Reader thether for his further satisfaction therein . As touching the speech of Fa : Weston deliuered to M. Dolman , which he alledgeth in the 20 leafe , and of his recollecting himselfe with his associates vnto prayer , his framing of his countenance to weepe , and of M. Doct : Bauands like shew ; ( which he most highly commendeth as religious , and full of piety , and humility , and blameth vs of contempt , in the relating thereof , and disliking thereat ) you must vnderstand that there is no good thing , or action in the world , but it may be abused ; neither doe any men vse more ostentation of deuotion , and humility , then hypocrites , and such as seek most to deceaue . Did any man shew greater reuerence in outward behauiour to Religion , and religious men , then Nicholas Machiauell , as all men report of him ? And yet hee was , but an Atheist inwardly . Therefore not the bare actions of themselues , ( which may be indifferent eyther good or bad , ) but the manner , and intention , with all other necessary circumstances , must be considered . For if any circumstance be faulty , the action is thereby vitiated , though otherwise good of it selfe . Bonum est ex integra causa , malum autem ex quolibet defectu . If then the intentions , or circumstances of these extrinsecall shewes of piety , or deuotion were to euill ends : how can the actions be said to be good , humble , or religious ? Is it Religion or deuotion to pray , that a man may meet with another mans purse by the high way side ? Doubtlesse no , but an abuse of prayer , and yet prayer is good in it selfe . These actions then of Fa : Weston , tending to the oppression , & defaming of his fellow prisoners ( as we haue shewed manifestly in the former chapter ) could not be termed humble , deuout , or religious ; but an abuse thereof , and therefore iustly taxed as such , in the relation of those stirres . And as for his faire shew vnto Ma : Doleman , that if the rest would be perswaded , he would giue ouer , and meddle no further , it was but a meere shift , as the euent afterwards shewed , and as you may see by the former chapter . Besides , Ma. Dolman can wel testifie so much , and my selfe also , who vrged this point precisely vnto him , but could draw him to no indifferencie . And when I had pressed him earnestly therewith , he shifted mee of vnto the rest , whom he knew to be so setled by him in that course , that it was bootlesse for me , or any other to deale with them therein . But I would demaund of you Fa : Parsons this one question : If father Weston were so vertuous , so humble , and so religious , as you would make the world thinke him to be , why ( I beseech you ) did he not humbly imitate the example of S. Gregory Nazianzen , who beeing lawfully chosen Bishop of Constantinople , without either faction , or sedition , yet when he afterwards perceiued contention to arise amongst the Bishops about him , ( though vniustly ) he voluntarily departed , vsing this speech of Ionas the Prophet , Si propter me orta est haec tempestas , proijcite me in mare , rather choosing to preiudice himselfe , then that tumult and contention should arise in the Church . Doubtlesse , if Fa : Weston had been a man of so rare humilitie , as heere Fa : Parsons affirmeth , he would haue departed from that faction , how violent soeuer they had been , and rather then such scandalous stirrs should haue beene caused by such emulation for him , to the infamy of so reuerend a place , as Wisbich was before that time , and the infinite hurt of our poore afflicted Church in England , hee would ( I say ) haue withdrawne himselfe from them , and chosen rather to haue liued in a hole , then to haue referred the matter to his copartners , sct . if they be pleased , I am content . If S. Gregory had stoode vppon such termes , concerning those Bishops , that tooke his part , when ( I pray you ) would there haue beene an end of those contentions ? No , no , there was no such spirit of humility in Fa : Weston as you talke of , but contrariwise , too too much desire of rule , and preheminence . I pray God he may proue more humble in all his life to come , then hee shewed himselfe to be , in those garboyles . Touching Ma. Doctor Bauand , I know hee will not denie , but that the second , or third day after his beeing at Wisbich , he much disliked the violent proceeding of fa : Westons part , and complained of the impatience , and importunity of some of them , saying that they were ready to pull his cloake from his backe , because hee would not heare their clamors . Howsoeuer he grew afterwards to fauour them , and their proceedings , let him looke to it . It is true , that since that time hee hath prosecuted some matters , further then any man in conscience could doe , ( so hath affection blinded , or ouer-ruled him ) as by a letter written by him in the Iesuits behalfes , I haue shewed in the first chapter . Concerning Fa : Garnets politick dealing in those affaires , then , and in diuers other since , I referre you also to the first chapter of this Reply , to the Relation it selfe : and to all those bookes that haue beene written of our late troubles . Wherin if you finde not store of policies , and such as ( I thinke ) may beseeme a right cunning politician : blame my iudgement , as very meane , and weake . And therefore as in the beginning I said , so say I still , that no wise man will measure euery man by euery good action that proceedeth frō him , or euery good word he vttereth , but measure his actions and words by their sequels , & circumstances . Because euery defect diminisheth the good , and corrupteth the best morall deed of man. Otherwise , we might truly say , hypocrites were the best men , because commonly they do ( at the least publiquely ) the most morall good deedes . VVee may not omit heere the great humilitie hee also noteth in this Fa : Weston , for his promiscuall sitting at the table , sometimes heere , sometimes there , as it pleased him , leauing his proper place , which was beneath Ma. Doctor Bagshaw ▪ and Ma. Bluet , which in the Relation is iustly condemned . For before this , there was much murmuring amongst his associates , that he was not preferred vnto the highest place , before the foresaid two priests : which because hee could not obtaine , hee framed that new fashion of sitting , ( as nouelties alwayes follow pride ) thereby ( vnder a colour forsooth of humility ) to take away the note of his minority , to the aforesaid Doct : and M. Bluet . And let not Fa : Parsons after his accustomed manner , say , that this is a malitious interpretation of his humble act ; for nouelties neuer follow humility , but pride , and disdaine . Neyther can he auoyd the note of nouelty in this action of fa : Weston , because religious men vse such manner of sitting in their Monasteries . For to introduce into the secular Clergie , those things which may be fitly vsed of Friers , and Monkes in their Monasteries , were both a nouelty , and ridiculous . And so we account of this particuler action of promiscuall taking place at meales , resembling the Puritans consistories , where there must be no Bishop , nor degree , but a democraticall brotherhood all alike ; which the Church of GOD hath euer detested in her Clergie . But if this humble Father would haue shewed true , and sincere humilitie indeede , he should haue betaken himselfe to his true place ( in that hee was a religious man ) & haue set himselfe beneth all the priests there at the nether end of the table . Neither could bee in iustice challenge any higher place , beeing a priuate religious man in his order , and no prelate , as Father Parsons would haue him to be , because he had beene his substitute in England , ouer the Iesuits , but neuer Prouinciall , though wee termed him so , in that he was his delegate . For his said substitution surceasing , hee was but as before , a priuate religious man , whereas the other priests were & are verè pastores . And euery man knoweth , that the place of a pastor is aboue any priuate religious man , though of curtesie somtimes they may , vpon opinion of their sanctitie , giue such a place vnto them . In the 22. leafe hee talketh of wonderfull folly in vs , and passionate proceeding , in telling you of the greatnes of that societie through all Christendome ; that many great men , both of the Laïtie and Clergie were Iesuits , & Iesuited : and that fa : Parsons was an especiall man with the king of Spaine , the Pope , and Cardinals . All which make against vs , as hee saith , and shew fa : Parsons vertues and good parts , and the great reuerence , & esteeme of the whole Societie . A strange folly sure this is , Cardinall Wolsey was a great man with King Henry the eyght , with the Emperour Charles the fift , vvith the King of Fraunce , and other great Princes , and for a time he could doe great matters with them all ; ergo , Card : Wolsey was a vertuous and holy man. Stay there Ma : Parsons , you will not say so . Frier George in Hungarie was a great man with the Emperour sometimes , and with other Princes other times , and ruled all the country at his pleasure , ergo , a good & vertuous man ? It dooth not follow . Fa : Parsons is , or hath beene a great man with the King of Spaine , deceiued the Pope , abused Cardinall Caietane , and other princes , & many great men , haue had a better opinion of him then hee deserued , whereby he hath been reputed for a more honest man , then he proueth ; ergo , fa : Parsons is a Frier George , or Wolsey . Doth not this conclusion follow as fitly , as the other ? Haue not many times bad & lewd men wonne great fauor and credite both with Popes and other Princes ? What great folly ( I pray you ) was it to tell you , that father , Parsons could doe much with the Pope , or other great men with his iugling ; or that he was great with the king of Spaine , by reason of his practizing vnnaturally against his owne Country in his behalfe ? or what folly is it to tell you , that his Order is very powerfull in all Christendome ? Indeed it is a bugge to many faint-harted Catholicks , yea , and to some of our brethren to : who seeing their greatnes , are afraid to encounter with them , though their cause be neuer so iust . But let them be as great as they can : the greatnes of their order , & power thereof , gaineth not sanctitie to euery member . I pray God that the conceit thereof , make not some of them be bold in going still forward with their most wicked designements : which howsoeuer they shall presume to attempt , they shall ( by Gods grace ) find such , as both dare , and will , to theyr powers , withstand those their indeuours , notwithstanding all their greatnes . As for the auerring of some great men to haue beene Iesuits , or Iesuited it is certaine , that many great men haue too much fauoured them , through an opinion of their sanctitie . VVhereby some times they haue beene the easier drawne to like of their proceedings . But that euer any of vs said that Cardinall Allen was a Iesuit , it is an vntruth of a Iesuit : and the same I thinke of Doctor Saunders , and Doctor Bristow , though they might be too much affected towards them , vppon such an erroneous opinion . But as for Don Bernardino Mendoza , it is known , that he was wholy affectionate to thē , and it is but an ordinary course with the Iesuits , to bind both noble men and women , and others also vnto them by vow , and yet leauing them in the world to be their instruments , of which kind in both sexes , I could name some in our owne Country . And therefore it is no strange thing to charge the Iesuits to haue men in the world abroad that are theirs , and bound to them in vow , and therefore may be termed Iesuits . For what doth incorporate into a religious body , but the vowes thereof , amongst which obedience , is the chiefest . Touching the relation of matters obiected against our friends in Wisbitch : there was no more folly therein , then is in clearing any innocents of false matters obiected against them , or for Fa : Parsons to lay downe obiections , vrged against himselfe and his friends , and to goe about , to aunswer them . And as for the disorders obiected , if they be not so to the full aunswered , that all note of folly thereby is sufficiently taken away , and that with the discredite of some of his subiects , chiefe actors in such vncharitable , false , and vniust accusations ; let them vrge them a new , and prosecute them , either iuridicé , or by writing , and we will be ready to aunswer him at euery turne , to his discredit . In the 23 leafe , he setteth downe certaine propositions , giuen vp vnto the arbitratours in Wisbich , at the first meeting about those stirres ; by which articles ( he saith ) the quiet part meant ( as you may see ) to haue matters quietly , and secretly decided , and the defects , and disorders , which had beene cause of the separation , to be vttered modestly by common consent , and no mans fame publikely hurt . This assertion is so false , as Fa : Parsons cannot but know it to be false . For ( as in the former Chap : we haue set downe , and is declared in the Relation ) before any separation was made by them , they had by letters , and messages spred abroad into all coasts , infamous slaunders against the vnited part , and at their very separation , prefixed the cause of their retire to be for scandalls , and mortall sinnes . How then was it possible , that matters could be secretly examined , without hurt of any mans fame , when as they had defamed them long before , & published the same to the world ? And as for the articles , the very first of them ( to omit the rest ) contayned such a condition , as might haue tyed the arbitratours to haue stayed 7. yeeres , to heare an end of their fiddle-faddles , euery foote faining new accusations , though nothing to the purpose , to delay time , and weary the arbitrators . Besides , by the course of their conditions proposed , they would seeme but to haue tied themselues to haue beene enformers , and not accusers ; so that the arbitrators should haue proceeded by way of interrogations , to examine men vpon questions without accusers ; which kinde of dealing how vniust , and vncharitable it was ( being both against the law of iustice , and charity , to vrge men against themselues without accusers ) let euery man of vnderstanding iudge . To preuent these inconueniences , our friends set downe foure other articles , which he afterwards mentioneth . The first is this , viz : we require that satisfaction be made for the slaunder , and diffamation sustayned by the breach , if sufficient cause cannot be proued for their so doing . Vpon this Fa : Parsons maketh a marginall note of satisfaction desired for things past ; and prosecuteth the same afterwards , as if it had beene a hainous matter , for Priests being defamed , to require satisfaction , when the diffamation is past . I would faine know when men should demaund satisfaction , if not when wrongs were already done . I am sure a man can demaund no satisfaction before the wrong be past ; for before it be past , it is no wrong . Whether then in demaunding of satisfaction , when no iust cause could be proued against them , they did otherwise then any men in the world might in conscience , and would doe , iudge you . The second article is as followeth . Wee require that euery accusation be set downe in writing vnder the accusers hand , sub poena Talionis , if it be not proued . This in the margent he calleth a threat to all accusers ; and in the same sort also prosecuteth it in his comment . Whereby you may perceaue that the intendment of him , and his fellowes , was naught else but to slaunder , and defame , and to be bound to no satisfaction , for neuer so great wrongs offered . This is , and alwayes hath beene a familiar course with the Iesuits , they must be tied to no law of iustice : to mention but the law Talionis , which punisheth the accuser , that vntruly , and vniustly accuseth his brother , as a calumniator , was pety treason . Deeme by this , I beseech you , whether it be probable in your conceite , that our brethren were guilty of such deformities , and notorious enormities , as this man affirmeth ; when as the accusers durst not take vpon them the part of accusers , with condition to doe the satisfaction , if they were found to haue wronged them by such slaunderous accusations . I am sure where there is any iustice in the world vsed , this condition will not be taken , as a threat , but as an honest , iust , lawfull , yea , and necessary condition . Howbeit forsooth nothing must be iust , or lawfull , which pleaseth not a Iesuit . The third article ensueth in these words . Wee will aunswer in all things according to the Canon law , supposing these men to be our lawfull Iudges . This condition Fa : Parsons noteth in the margent , for a meere euasion , and in the comment , a tedious progresse , by reason of delayes , and exceptions , which are ordinary in the course of the law . Belike this Fa : would haue you thinke , that because our brethren would tie themselues , and the rest vnto iuridicall , and lawfull proceeding , as well in their aunswering to matters obiected , as in the others accusing ; therefore they meant to keepe tearmes foure times in the yeere about them , or haue some set Court day , with Crier , and Sumner , once in a fortnight , or three weekes , or else to what end speaketh he of delayes , and exceptions in the course of the Canon law ? Or might not our brethren haue the priuiledges of the Canons , not to aunswer , but sufficiently accused by sufficient witnes in law , and not by euery raggamuffin , suborned perhaps for the purpose ? Or would they haue euery scullion in a kitchin a sufficient witnes , and his testimony currant against a priest ? Or would they haue the accusers ( as it seemeth ) free to taxe them , without bond of satisfaction for the wrong , if they failed ? If this be not his intention ; why might not the Canons haue beene obserued , quoad substantiam at the least , and that speedily without delayes , the arbitrators , and witnes , and parties being all present ? But it was not delayes they feared , but the law , and iustice therof , which would haue lighted heauie on their backs , if they had proceeded : and therefore in very deede they and not our friends sought all the delayes , and exceptions they possibly could . The fourth article which he cauilleth at is this . Wee will sustaine any censure with this condition , that being censured by these men , we may be secured thereby from all other censures concerning that matter . In the margent Fa : Parsons saith , this is a confession with a prouiso ; and in his Comment he addeth , that it shewed their guilty consciences , and how grosse disorders they had committed . A strange sequell this is , that this assecuration desired , should conuince them guilty of all , that was obiected . I verily take it in my vnderstanding , that no men but fooles would haue done lesse , to preuent double payment for one delict , if any should haue beene proued . In a Communitie where many be , who could aunswer for euery one in particuler ? Therefore least any petty matter might be proued against any one , hauing ouer-shot himselfe at any time ( as in deede there was one , against whom they seemed to except very much at that time , as a disorderly person ) yet afterwards returning to their part , he was a very honest man , though worse then before , although as I am able to testifie vpon my oath , when he was with our friends , they neuer defended his errors , yea , some of them , the Doctor especially , rated him more for them , then any in the house else did : for this cause , I say , and in the behalfe of this person , they required security from farther censuring afterwards , being once censured by the arbitrators . And this I thinke was but a reasonable demaund in the sight of any indifferent man. What needed the other part to haue stoode vpon this quirk , as the times are now in England , but eyther to haue censured the delinquent , and secured him , or if they could not haue so done , ( which was no difficulty ) then to haue remitted the censure , as they had pleased , which would haue beene sufficient for their purpose ? Now what folly there was in the setting down sincerely of all these things in the Relation of Wisbich stirres , iudge you , or whether indeede it doth not euidently note , both fidelity , and sincerity in the writer of that story , that he would omit no one thing of moment , whether making for the one side or the other , no shufling , and shifting off of matters , concerning the truth , and deliuering falshoods , as Fa : Parsons doth . And heere by the way , note a little folly in the good Father , that he would obserue these matters as ouer-sights , and aduantages for his faction , which were indeede very reall verities , & did lay out apparantly the vniust , and vncharitable proceedings of fa : Weston , and his adherents . For heereby any man of wit or reason will see plainly , that the foresaid Relation of those matters is most true , and sincere , and thereby be secured , that he may not onely read the same ( which the Iesuits most feare , and giue warning of , as most dangerous ) but also relie vppon the fidelity and truth thereof . In the pages following , hee gathereth together bundels of sharpe sentences , and words vsed here , and there , as heate moued mens particuler passions , against the Archp : and Iesuits . Which although I wish had been omitted , yet all things considered , the wrongs that the parties haue particulerly receiued at their hands for many yeeres together , as well as in generall , may somwhat excuse their choler . But for the further aunswer to this poynt , they shall be payed with theyr owne coyne gathered out of this booke ( omitting the raylings vsed by Ma. Lyster in his Libell , and fa : Parsons in his Apologie , and else where ) and layd vp as in a treasurie to be viewed together in the end of this reply , as before I haue promised . Now as touching some of the imputations to the Archpriest , as that of writing false letters against his conscience , or knowledge , or both ; his Letters to Rome before his institution , doe manifest as much , and it shall be auowed when hee pleaseth . For his forgery about his authority , terme it how you will , Ma : Collington , and Ma : Charnocke , two reuerend priests tooke him with the manner , and are ready to iustifie the same . And concerning that arrogant speech of Fa : Parsons , in the 25. leafe , the second page , that without the comming in of the Iesuits , the most of vs had not been Catho : much lesse priests : it sauoureth of too too much pride in arrogating so much to themselues . For since their comming into England , where one hath been conuerted from heresie to catholicke religion by the Iesuits , I dare boldly say , aboue an hundred haue been conuerted by the Priests : yet neuer were the priests an hundred for one of them . No , no , the Iesuits scorne to meddle ordinarily but with great personages , and men & women of wealth , or great expectation . But the priests ( making no distinction of persons ) deale with all sorts , poore aswel as rich . Whereby they bring more to Gods church , one of them , in a yeere , then any one Iesuit in seauen . I know some one priest that hath reduced aboue an hundred in one yeere . All the Iesuits in England ( I verily thinke ) neuer brought in so manie in the like space since their first entrance . See then what a proud and arrogant speech of father Parsons this is . Beleeue me , if neuer Iesuit had entred England , I suppose there had beene more Catholicks , then there now are , and with lesse danger of lawes . And as touching our selues , for the most part of vs , as we were catholicks before we knew any of them : so might we haue beene priests though they had neuer beene borne . There were priests in England before they came hether , and will be heereafter , when peraduenture there will not be a Iesuite in the world . But wee must giue them leaue for their time to set out themselues . In the page 27. hee taketh occasion to speake of our follie forsooth , in choosing our meanes to compasse our intentions , and bring our matters to effect . And first of The hope of peace , he saith , that the meanes were contrary to the end , as tending rather to warre , by laying open many vntruths against our Superiour . I verily thinke , that he vnderstood not the cause of the title of the booke , for if hee had , surelie hee would not so much haue mistaken the matter as he doth . It was not intended as a meanes to procure peace : but rather to shew the iuglings of the Archpriest , and fa : Garnet , the latter writing letters vnto a priest in the Clincke , to deale with Ma. Bluet and Ma. Clarke there , and Ma. Collington and others abroad to come to a peace , with faire offers , and intertayning treaty of conditions by two or three seuerall letters : and in the meane time the Archpriest writing abroade most false , and vntrue things against vs , and our bookes to his assistants : which seuerall proceedings being so cōtrary , shewed what hope , or expectance wee could haue of honest dealing at their hands , or of any true & sincere peace . This then was the intention of that booke , to discouer these iuglings , and therefore was it intituled The hope of peace , to shew that there was no reall hope of any true peace to proceede from them . As for the folly committed in the other booke to the Inquisition , once more I would intreate his fatherhood , to refer the censuring thereof vnto his betters , the worthy congregation of the Inquisition , vnto whom it is dedicated and presented . And as for his carping at the similitude of the man casting out deuils in Christes name , I will let it passe for him to take his aduantage as he list , and make his owne exposition . For I verily thinke , that euery wise man that readeth his interpretation thereof , will discouer more folly in him for his applycation , not intended by the Writer in that sence but onely a simili , then in him that first alledged the example . And for our accepting , or seeking of fauour at the hands of Protestants , and our Gouernours in temporalities : I think no man can condemne vs therein , vnlesse he will also condemne the practizes of all times of persecution , both in the time of the law of Moses , and also since Christ . In the 28. page he citeth certaine words of the Epistle to the Important considerations , wherein it is affirmed , that there is no sinne arising vpon infirmitie , and frailty of man committed by an Apostata , an Infidell , an Hereticke , a Schismatike , an Atheist , cast out of the fauour of God , and accursed out of his Church , but a Cath : may fall into the same , and yet remaine constant in his religion to death . This father Parsons affirmeth to be a false assertion . And therein say I , that fa : Parsons manifesteth more folly , then all the follies hee noteth in all our writings , put thē all together ; to say nothing of his ignorance or simplicitie . For it is a matter certaine , and de fide , that a man hath free wil vnto all kinde of sinnes ; and it is no lesse manifest , that sinnes of infirmitie , and frailty , neuer cut a man off from Gods Church . Neither can infidelitie , heresie , or schisme , be termed sinnes of infirmitie or frailtie , but of malice . For no man can be an Infidell , heretick , or schismatick , without obstinacie and pertinacity of will , which cannot be called frailtie . Therefore may a Catholicke commit of frailty any sin that an Infidell , hereticke , or Schismaticke committeth : remaining still a resolute catholick . And this we see daily by experience , all Catholicks being not saints . See therefore vvhat learning fa : Parsons dropped out heere , and what store of wisedome hee shewed in contradicting so manifest a truth . Now will I leaue the Reader duly to consider , whether our follies in relating such things as heere , and in the first chapter fa : Parsons obiecteth , being vrged thereto vpon necessity , in defence of our innocencie , be greater , or his , in cunning iugling , and shifting , alwaies flying the true and reall poynt of controuersie , and carping at by-matters , and for his aduantage reporting our words , and speeches falsly , and otherwise then they were deliuered by vs. Whereby we haue been enforced ( as you see ) to take him tripping , to his eternall disgrace ( if he haue any grace left ) which we had not done , if his ouermuch boldnesse had not made him run himselfe out of breath , forgetting all truth , honestie , and sinceritie . An aunswer to the third ●●●pter , concerning our pretended follie , and presumptuous spirit , in making to ur selues such aduersaries as we doe . IN father Parsons handling of this chapter , I cannot but wonder at his exceeding ouersight , in that he admiring so greatly our follies , would so palpably discouer his owne . For what man I beseech you of wit or vnderstanding , would vrge the contradicting of our Archpriests vniust oppressions ; our exclaming against the Iesuits vncharitable courses against our selues , and condemning their vnnaturall practises against their prince , and state ; our resisting of the King of Spaines attempts against our Country , our displaying the cruelty of Spanish Souldiers , & the tyrannie of their gouernment , to auert the minds of all naturall English men , from all vaine , and mad expectations of any good , by their inuasions ; as foolish occasions giuen by vs , to make to our selues enemies of our Archp : the Iesuits , and the King of Spaine ? What great potent person is Ma. Blackwell , in the world , that he may not be contradicted , when hee doth amisse ? Is it lawfull to resist , and appeale from a Bishop , an Archbishop , a Patriarch , and is it not lawfull to appeale from an Archpriest ? Must iustice be afraid of bugges ? If any irreuerent speeches haue beene vttered , where they should not haue beene , we are sorry for it ; and let your payment made to the full , in the same kind cancell ours . But otherwise for our proceedings against Ma : Blackwell our Archpriest , wee doe , and will defend them ; and you in all your discourse in his behalfe , seeme to draw more from vs vnto him , then euer was due to any subordinate Superiour in the world , vnlesse you would put infallibility in euery gouernour , without the which , no such bands can be , but that iust exceptions may be taken against them ; and appeales there-vpon framed , & prosecuted , as you see in our case is admitted . Concerning your potent order ; such vizards are for children , and temporisers , and not for men of our profession : who should in euery cause preferre iustice , and right , before potencie , and might . We know many in your order , to be apt to remember old quarells , and to pay home when aduantage , & time serueth , and we looke for no other at your hands . But what then ? Shall we therefore desist to prosecute iustice , and hinder your exorbitant endeuours ? Shall I hold my tongue , because Fa : Parsons may worke me a shrewd turne , if I come into Spaine or Italy ? No , no , non confundar pro anima mea , dicere verum ; I will ( God willing ) vtter nothing but truth , and necessary truth , and that shall out ; let Fa : Parsons threat , what he can . And touching the Spaniards , they are professed enemies to our Prince , and Country , and seeke nothing more , then our subuersions . As they are Cath : in Christian charity we wil loue them ; but as enemies to our Country , we contemne them , and will with our bloods resist them . And ( as I suppose ) we haue not onely right so to doe in respect of our Countries defence , but also iure gentium , in that they were the first breakers of the league betwixt vs , and them , as by their attempt in Ireland , in the yeere 1579 ▪ may appeare ; to omit the plot of Robert Rodulphi , some yeeres before . But in this Fa : Parsons plainly discouereth his loue , and affection towards his Country , and what a treacherous minde he carieth towards his true , and naturall Prince : in that he seeketh to draw her naturall subiects , to keepe amity , and beare affection towards her professed aduersarie , and the onely enemie of our Country : Howsoeuer false harted he be , yet was it a point of exceeding great folly for him , so openly to discouer the same , that now no man of wit or discretion , and loue to his Prince , and Country ( which euery naturall borne English , is bound to haue ) can iudge other of him , then as a professed enemie vnto them both . And touching the Colledges , and Pensions that are maintained , and giuen by the Spaniard ( which he so oft inculcateth ) we no whit thanke him for them , as things are handled , and occasions thereby ministred of our greater persecution at home , by reason of Fa : Parsons trecherous practises , thereby to promote the Spaniards tytle for our Country ; and his hatefull stratagems with such scholers , as are there brought vp : enforcing them to subscribe to blanks , and by publike Orations , to fortifie the said wrested tytle of the Infanta : which courses cannot , but repay vs with double iniuries , and wrongs , for the benefits receaued . If they had been sincerelie giuen vs for Gods cause , without any such vniust conditions ; we should haue cause to thank him , and euer pray for his regall prosperity . But being otherwise ( as we haue said ) we cannot thinke it a poynt of ingratitude , not to respect his liberality therein . And whereas Fa : Parsons in the 31 page , laboureth to perswade vs , that the King of Spaines intentions against our Country , were principally for the aduauncement of Cath : Religion ; and that he neuer meant , or pretended in his life any temporall interest for himselfe , to the crowne of England : he both iugleth with vs , and also speaketh against his owne knowledge , and conscience . First , he iugleth by a notable equiuocation , in that he sayeth , he neuer pretended interest for himselfe , to the crowne of England , because forsooth he meant it for his daughter the Infanta ; a prety shift to play bo-peepe with . I pray you what ease should haue come more to vs ▪ by pretending it for his daughter , then if he had pretended it for himselfe ? And as touching his intention principally ( as you say ) for Religion : did not you Fa : Parsons affirme to diuers Scholers in Spaine , ( who are yet ready to iustifie the same against you ) that if the Duke de Medina had preuailed in 88. he had made no regard of Cath : and that the state of our Country was not knowne vnto the Spaniards , before you came to Spaine , and made them there-with acquainted : and that it was Gods doing to preuent that attempt , for our Countries good ? Haue not you deliuered the like speeches to the same effect since to diuers Scholers in Rome ? Did not Fa : Southwell comming ouer to Wisbich , vse the like speeches there of that attempt ? Haue not our Scholers in Spaine diuers times heard the religious Preachers in open pulpit condemne their intentions , as not principally for Gods cause , but for ambition , & the like . How can you then assure vs of his principall intention for Religion ? Haue not you in the hearing of diuers Scholers vsed these speeches , in talking of the Spaniards attempts against our Country , viz : It is no matter , let them alone , when they haue once subdued our Country , and setled the same , we will quickly thrust them out againe . A prety perswasion to children ; but sottish , and ridiculous in the eares of wise men . Yet did it shew your great regard eyther to one thing or other , so you might draw all to your desire . You haue certainlie a very factious braine : and so that you may set men together by the eares , you care not . But to leaue these Spanish intentions , let vs proceede with you to other matters . From the Archpriest , Iesuits , & king of Spaine , he cōmeth vnto the Popes , and fourthly hee reckoneth that wee should haue abused his holines that now raigneth , whom wee haue made ( as he saith ) our aduersarie . And why forsooth ? Because we did not admit the Archpriest at his first institution by the Card : protectors letters : and that we affirmed , that a Breve might be procured out of some office , without his holines knowledge : and that wee said our two messengers , Ma. Doctor Bishop , and Ma. Charnocke , were ill handled by Fa : Parsons procurement in Rome : and that his holines , beeing moued by the French Embassador , or Agent , was once determined to heare our said two Agents , but afterwards disswaded by the Spanish Embassadour , and other meanes wrought by fa : Parsons . These forsooth are the great matters that haue made his holines our aduersary : which things because they are childish obiections , and meere Pageants of folly in fa : Parsons , scanned & answered , and iustified so oft in our seueral writings , I wil omit to be wrapped vp amongst other his follies . But concerning the other three Popes , viz. Pius Quintus , Gregory the 13. and Sixtus quintus , whose actions against our Country , by the inducements principally of the Iesuits , and such like , wee both dislike , and wish neuer had beene : I see no how he can draw vs to any inconuenience in the vvorld , vnlesse it be vnlawfull to dislike any particuler action done by any Pope . For otherwise I am sure , that by those actions came no good , but much hurt : and I assure my selfe , that if the aforesaid Popes had foreseene the inconueniences , that haue ensued such actions , they would neuer haue been drawn thereto . But they were deceiued & seduced by diuers , Stukeley , the Iesuits , and the Spaniard , who should haue been named first , as beeing the first and the last , in plotting of all mischiefes against our country . Neither is it strange to haue Popes drawne to inconuenient courses by the aduise & coūsell of others . For in these matters they are but as other princes , depending vppon theyr counsell and aduise which may erre : as in the attempt of Paule the 4. against Naples . But it may be lawfull for the Iesuits to tax Popes actions in higher points a great deale , without danger , and yet we may not say this , or that particuler fact in a Pope , had beene better omitted . What folly , if not insolencie , is this ? Did not the Iesuits generally condemne Sixtus quintus , and publiquely one of them preach against him in Spaine , because hee would haue changed theyr name to Ignatians , after the manner of other religious orders , taking their name of their first founder : and haue brought them to the Quire. And for his dealing in the behalfe of the King of Fraunce that now is ; did they not say that his holines , Clement the eyght erred in absoluing the said King of Fraunce , beeing therein deceiued by his Diuines ? These are matters of a little more consequence , then our dislikes of particuler actions against our country , or resisting a Cardinalls Letter . Yet ours argueth great folly , and must needes procure the Popes to be our enemies : & theirs great wisedome , meriting much at the Popes hands for their good seruice done therein . What is this but to arrogate infallibilitie to theyr proceedings , and to draw all states , Popes , and Princes , both to be directed and ruled by them ? But by the way , I may not omit his cunning leauing out of halfe a sentence in the 52. page , where relating our wordes out of the Important considerations , which are these ; If the Pope had neuer beene vrged by them to haue thrust the King of Spaine into that barbarous action against our Realme : hee leaueth out the first halfe , and citeth them thus : If the Pope had not thrust the king of Spaine , &c. which maketh the sentence to sound more odious against the Pope , as proceeding of his owne proper motion , and desire of our Countries ouerthrow , where by our words we shew him to haue beene induced , and vrged therto by others , as indeede he was : but Fa : Parsons will neuer leaue his old tricks of iugling . From these higher powers of Popes , by one step vp , and another downe , he commeth vnto the greater part in Wisbich , which ( he saith ) we make our enemies , and he noteth 30. well neere of them , and but seauen or eight of ours : whereas when these contentions began in Wisbich , and during their most aboade there , the number was not of such inequallity , as he telleth you there ; being 13. on the vnited part , and 19. on the other , and no more . How they may be increased , or diminished , since the end of those stirres , by new missions from other prisons , importeth little to the purpose . Yet we assure our selues , and know it to be true , that necessity forceth some to hang on their sleeues there , least otherwise they should starue in prison , by the vncharitable subtraction of exhibition , caused by the Iesuits , as all men know . But to come neerer to the purpose : Be the number more , or lesse , what folly , I pray you , is it in prosecuting of a iust cause , to make a few priests in prison our aduersaries ? Indeede if the cause were euill , I would hold with Fa : Parsons , that we ought to haue respected the grauity , and merits of so many Confessours in prison , together with the iniustice of the cause by vs taken in hand , but seeing our cause is iust , and most iust ( as in the chiefest point of the Archpriest , and matter of schisme already is euident , and in the rest ( I doubt not ) will proue in the end ) what ouer-sight was it by such honest , and lawfull meanes , to procure their enmitie , if they will thereby make themselues vniustly our enemies , or aduersaries . Marie saith Fa : Parsons , because theirs being the greater part in that house , euery man of iudgement considering the odds , and differences of these two parts , to wit , the number , and qualitie of each side , will easily incline to giue sentence against them . To this wee say , that euery man that taketh father Parsons courses , and regardeth multitude , and strength more then equitie and iustice , will easily condemne indeed the lesser part : but euery wise , and honest man , vvill looke into the cause , and not to the number , or outward faire shew of the persons , which often deceaueth the vulger sort , but neuer any discreet indifferent person , not caried away with partialitie . And as for the cōmendations of fa : Weston , they had been better out of another mans mouth then fa : Parsons , and wee haue sufficiently spoken thereof in the first chapter . But touching Ma. Pond , wee can better commend his constancie in religion , and durance , then his discretion in his particuler actions ; which we will omit , not indeed intending the disgrace of any , rather attributing such things to a defect in nature , then otherwise : though I must needes tell Ma : Parsons , that hee tasteth too too much of spight and mallice , in disgracing ●oure reuerend and worthy men our friends ; to wit , first Ma : Doctor Bagshaw , whom in disdaine he calleth a Doctor of his owne procuring , without licence of his Superiour . Whereas all men know there is no other licence required in taking degree in schooles , but sufficiencie in the party proceeding , which ( all the world knoweth ) was more in him , then any Iesuit that euer came into England , and approbation of the Vniuersitie , where he taketh degree , which hee had with great applause . See whether this sauoured not of malice against the Doctor in particuler , making him further the Author of all contention , because he opposed himselfe to theyr ambitious desires ; and charging him with expulsion out of the Romane Colledge , which is most false , and that he was of an vnquiet spirit there . All these obiections proceed of an old grudge , without any iot of veritie . The Rector Alphonso Agazara , that then ruled the Colledge , betwixt whom and the scholers was difference , was then thrust out for his troublesome , & vnquiet gouernment , and vniust dealings against the scholers , as is well knowne to all that liued then in Rome . You may find more of this matter in Ma. Doctor Bagshawes aunswer to the Apologie , ioyned with Doctor Ely his notes . The second person whom hee so much disgraceth , is Ma : Bluet , a man of great grauitie , and for his long sufferance , the most worthy Confessor of our Nation : and whose person , and cariage hath been such , as thereby he hath beene , and is venerable in the sight of all men , euen amongst the Protestants . And as touching his hauing once beene a Minister , it is a lewd obiection against him , no more derogating from his vertues , and good parts , then S. Augustines , beeing once a Manichè , derogated from his authority , and sanctity , vvhen afterwards he was Bishop of Hippo. Who knoweth not that diuers worthy men of our Nation haue beene Ministers , and yet doubtlesse are , whom we hope to see vnited with vs in the body of the Cath : Church ? Haue not diuers beene called from the very Altars of Idols to become Christians , yea and priests to ; and will you say that the office of the Ministrie is more disgracefull , then the office of Idolaters ? But this still sheweth a spice of too too much malice . The other two reuerend priests , are Ma. Champney , and Ma. Barnbe , whose parts , and vertues are knowne to be such , as all the enuy in fa : Parsons cannot impeach . Ma. Bluet and Ma. Champney are now in Rome , if any iust exceptions could be made against them , were it to touch their liues , I think fa : Parsons would vrge it against them . But all that hee , or any other saith to discredite them , is vntrue , and fained of purpose , to keepe theyr ignorant affected heere at home in iealousies , blinding them with muddy mists of detractions , that men should not see into theyr owne sleights and deceits , and discouer theyr bad proceedings in these affaires . The next ranke of the enemies wee haue procured ( as hee sayth ) is Doctor Saunders , Ma. Moreton , Doctor Web : and Cardinall Allen : and with these he ioyneth Doctor Stappleton , Doctor Bristow , Ma. George Martin , and Ma. William Reynolds . It is a world to see how this man shuffleth and cutteth , to draw all famous men to be fauourers of his fond and foolish courses , & by consequence aduersaries to vs ; of some of which it was neuer heard , that euer they medled in any matter concerning state . And if euer they did ( which to vs is vnknowne , & as we thinke to the world ) wee would as vvell dislike of them therein , as we do with all actions of that quality , proceede they from whom they will. Yet is not this to condemne or disgrace the men ( as we haue said ) or to make them iustly our enemies , no more then to dislike the fact of S. Cyprian in rebaptization , is to procure S. Cyprian our enemie : but rather the contrary , to procure theyr amity , & greater loue , ( if duly and iustly they consider it , speaking of such as are yet liuing ) in that hereby we giue them sufficient light , to see the errors of such proceedings , and what harme hath come to Gods cause by such attempts . Into which the worthy Cardinall Allen looking more narrowly , saw right well , and therefore detested such proceedings in his latter dayes , as you may see more plainly in Ma. Charles Pagets aunswer for himselfe , in the end of Doctor Elyes booke against the Apologie : where also you may perceiue , how farre hee was from ioyning with fa : Parsons , or fauouring his proceedings , whō he held for a man of a violent , and headlong spirit , and much complained thereof . And if it had so pleased God that hee had liued , fa : Parsons would haue found , that hee had disliked his courses , and would haue curbed him for them . But hee liued not , and some say his death was not without suspition . It is certaine that whilst he liued , fa : Parsons kept himselfe aloofe in Spaine : but after his death , hee hastened him as soone as hee could conueniently to Rome . Where after the said Cardinals death , and the death of the worthy Bishop of Cassana , which was by flat poyson , ( as many affirme ) hee raigned like a little King. But God that throweth downe the highest Ceder tree , would haue things fall out as they haue done : that his pride , and ambition might be seene , and his secret , vniust , vncharitable , and disloyall facts , wherein hee hath long steeped his practising fingers , to the oppression of many innocents , and encrease of our domesticall afflictions , might be seene on all sides , to his speedy humiliation ( which God graunt ) or his euerlasting infamie , which I wish he may by iust satisfaction in true humility auoyde . But to come 〈◊〉 our purpose , for the facts of Doctor Saunders , they haue beene sufficiently both in the first chap : and Important considerations proued to haue beene vniustifiable , and it little importeth , whether he did thrust himselfe into the Irish matters , or was commaunded thereto ( as Father Parsons affirmeth , which yet wee beleeue not ) the action it selfe being vnnaturall , and therefore not falling vnder commaund , and much lesse to him being a priest . Neither was he forced to iustifie the action of the nobles in the Northern commotion , or to defend any such courses , as he did , which no way were conuenient ; and therefore let Fa : Parsons hold his babble , vnlesse he will still discouer more his treacherous will towards his Prince , and Country , to make himselfe more hated of both , which neede not , his deserts haue beene so good . As for the action of Doctor Web , and Ma : Morton , it was an inconsiderate , and vnaduised act , irritating the Queene , and state , without any reason in the world . And assuredly had Pius quintus seene the inconueniences thereof , I assure my selfe he would haue kept in that Bull. But many faire tales of great matters to be performed by the Nobles , within the Realme , drew him thereto : as in like manner the hopes of the Recouery of Ireland , buzzed into Pope Gregories head by Stukley , prouoked him to the like attempts afterward . Let any man of indifferencie iudge , whether wee haue not cause to dislike these course . But sure I think Fa : Parsons did long for a generall massacre of Cath : throughout England , in that he would haue vs to iustifie these things , and fauour still his wicked plottings , and practisings . As concerning the booke set out in Card : Allens name in 88. it is the terriblest worke , that hath beene writ of that subiect , and able to hang all the priests , and Cath : in England , if they had but the least finger in it , & yet this holy Fa : would haue vs to iustifie it . If the worthy Card : did so much ouer-shoot himselfe , wee know it was much contrary to his hart , in his latter dayes ; and therefore are verily perswaded ( for diuers reasons ) that the worke eyther wholy , or in the greatest , and worst part thereof , proceeded from Fa : Parsons , vnder the good Card : name ; which made vs to impugne it , not as the Card : worke , but as Fa : Parsons . And such derogating words , as are vsed against it , touch not the worthy Card : but that vnworthy Iesuit . Neither is it the Card : that is called by the name of this Iesuit ; but Fa. Parsons , though he would fain shift it off , to the Card. Touching the Card : booke against English iustice , shewing that Cath : did truly suffer for Religion , and were free from matters of treason , and treacherie , and that priests were not sent in , to deale in matters concerning the state , but Religion onely , is so little impugned by vs , that euery where in all our writings , and in the Important considerations it selfe , wee auerre , and defend the same in that point . But to say that no Priest , Iesuit , or other Cath : hath practised against the sacred person of our Soueraigne , and quiet of her state , as wel by their dealings within the Realme , as by their procuring inuasions , and laying the plots thereof without the Realme ; it were meere impudencie , and to denie a verity as apparant , as the sunne-shine at noone dayes , as both by diuers publique conuictions thereof , and by books , letters , and pamphlets written to that purpose may appeare ; and Fa : Southwell in his supplication in part confesseth as much . Therefore these things being so euident , and publique , as they be , wee doe no more , but seeke to cleare our selues , and Cath : heereof , letting the burden light vpon some particuler persons , medlers in such vndutifull actions , and not vpon the whole innocent body of Priests , and Cath. VVhich course how necessary it was for all Cath : in our Country , let themselues be Iudges , vnlesse they would willingly haue had their throats cut , or haue beene hanged for other mens actions . In the taile of this Catalogue of our made enemies , Fa : Parsons placeth himselfe , as the chiefe of all the rest , and I beleeue him to be the chiefest , and onely , as the spring , & head , from whom all our miseries , and mischiefes , both temporall , and spirituall , in part , or whole , for many yeeres , did and still doe proceede , although he reckon vp a fardell of Fittons , in his owne commendations , wondring from whence all these imputations should come , and that in all our bookes he can find no one thing of substāce , that we haue against him . And then he reckoneth mountaines of mighty great good things done for vs , and many other matters , for the iustifying of himselfe . All which prayses would haue sounded far sweeter our of his neighbours mouth , then his owne , vnlesse such neighbours were scant in those coasts . First , he saith , his departure out of England is highly iustified in the Apologie , that no man without shame can obiect the same againe . For this Fitton , reade Ma : Doctor Bagshawes aunswer to the Apologie , in Ma. Doct : Elyes notes . Then he talketh of his ioyning with Card : Allen in Flaunders , and Rome , for the promoting of the Cath : cause in England . It seemeth he was an ill copesmate ; for I am sure Cardinall Allen quickly shot him off for a wrangler . After this , he reckoneth his Seminaries in Spaine , and Flaunders . A goodly broode ; hee gaue vs a reward to breake our heads , by his good deedes to bring men into treasons against their Prince , and Country , as is declared before , and more appeared by his solliciting some of the Priests brought vp there , to come in hostile manner against their Country . So he dealt with Ma. Thomas Leake , and others : and such as refused , he fell out with them . Now he reckoneth his comming backe to Rome , and sauing of that Colledge ; but in very deede he was the destruction thereof , as in the History of that Colledge , at large you shall see . Yea , he is so voyde of shame , that he is not afraid , to recount his procuring of vs a Superiour the Archpriest , ( which with an impudentlye , he saith , was our owne petition ) as also his proceeding with Ma. Doct : Bishop , & Ma : Charnocke in Rome , as great benefits vnto vs , and merits in himselfe . Beleeue me , when I read this , I was amazed with wondering at this mans brazen visage . Neuer did I in my life ( I protest ) reade , or heare so notorious wickednes , and iniustice , so impudently recounted for iust : nay , and which is more , for benefits vnto vs , and meritorious in himselfe . Iesu whether wil this man goe , or what wil he not iustifie and commend ? Doth not all our little world know , that the erecting of the Archpriest , was the cause of all our dissensions ? How then was hee procured at our owne petition ? Did not Ma. Standish most falsly by his meanes , suggest vnto the Pope in our names a desire of such a thing , wee neuer dreaming thereof ? Did any one priest in England , send his hand , or consent with Ma. Standish to sollicite any such matter ? Were not the Iesuits constrained , cunningly to extort Ratihabitions from the priests themselues , by subscriptions vnto a congratulatory letter , after that they had by forgery erected him , and saw him impugned ? Diabolus est mendax , et pater eius , God send father Parsons more shame , more honesty , and more truth . Pardon my plainenes curteous Reader , for the matter is most palpably grosse , and such as I thought could neuer haue proceeded from a Christian , much lesse a religious man. And for the vsage of our two Agents in Rome , the heauens themselues cry out against his barbarousnes therein . Euen some of his owne faction , yea , and as we haue heard , him selfe hath since wished he had not dealt so with them . Reade what is written of this matter in the copies of discourses , in the censure vpon fa : Parsons letter , in Ma. Doctor Bishop his letter to fa : Parsons there , and in Ma. Doctor Elyes aunswer to the Apologie . After these notorious vntruths poured forth , hee bringeth yet another ranck , to wit , such as haue died Martyrs , whom he saith we condemne as traytors , and there hee calleth vs in doubt of betraying our brethren , and thereby making of Martyrs . But I wonder not now at any thing he saith , for I well see he hath wholy giuen himselfe ouer to the trade of Fittening ; with the which it seemeth hee hath made sale of his conscience : how could he els call vs into question for such bloody practises , in whom he neuer saw the least inclination to such villanies . Which of the Iesuits hath hetherto been in danger of apprehension by our meanes , and yet wee know all , or most of theyr residences in England , and theyr walkes ? I am sure he will say , that if we were so lewdly disposed , we would begin with them first . What malignant spirit is this in him , to call our names in question for such treacheries ? And touching such as haue died in these times , in whom such practises haue not beene found , wee defend them for true Martyrs , notwithstanding whatsoeuer imputation of treason layd vpon them by any . But others vvhich haue been tainted heerewith , whether priests or Iesuits , vvee cannot so affirme of them : but leaue them to Gods mercie , ( as Ma : Ballard amongst the priests ) and this is defended euen in the booke of Important considerations . Now concerning Ma : Sherwin : his words , or deferring to aunswer , are not brought in , to derogate from his martyrdome ( as fa : Parsons falsely gathered , ) but to shew , what iealousies such doubtfull speeches , or refusing to speake directly , did put into the Queene , or States heads , of generall concurrence in those matters of state against them . Which made them more earnest in their proceedings , for feare of after-claps , as not knowing at that time , the difference betvvixt the affections of the Seculer priests , and the Iesuits towards theyr country . It is euident , that in the beginning some were scrupulous concerning Pius quintus his Bull , which might make Ma. Sherwin to desire , that the questions propounded vnto him , might not be vrged . Neither doth the story written by Cardinall Allen proue , that in his priuate examinations , he made no such aunswer ; for hee had not the Register of theyr examinations , but by relation , in which that might be omitted . Nor doth it follow , that if he had said those words , they would haue beene vrged at the barre , or execution . For that euery thing , spoken in euery priuate examination , is not produced alwaies at the barre : and whether it was or no , I know not . But sure I am , that such delayings of aunswers in that case , concerning the excommunication , and the Popes inuading vnder pretence of religion , did much irritate the State. Yet doe wee not thereby condemne them , as not Martyrs , ( as most falsly Ma. Parsons accuseth vs ) neither is there any word in our Treatise to that effect . And therefore hee might vvith more charity a great deale haue denied , that wee rather imputed those taciturnities , and ambiguous aunswers , vnto scrupulositie , and feare , what they might doe in such cases ( as doubtlesse it was ) then to any inward trecherous affections towards their Prince & country . And for Ma. Haywoods forbidding of acta Martyrum , they that informed it , will auouch it in place and time conuenient . Touching his running vppon designed Martyrs , it might please him to remember , that there is a little difference betweene a man designed for a Cardinall in his owne conceit , and our brethren that are in prison , subiect by the lawes of the Realme euery day to be put to death . But to satisfie the good father , let him know , that for the name hee so playeth with , it is not arrogated , by any imprisoned , to themselues , but attributed to them by theyr brethren abroad , as an vsuall name to constant Confessors in prison . S. Cyprian , whom he so much citeth about that phrase , calleth such , not only designed Martyrs , but Martyrs indeede . And the Church celebrateth some for Martyrs , that neuer shed theyr blood , but onely died in prison . For his vaunting of Martyrs that fauoured his faction and proceedings , where one hath liked them , of such as haue died of late , I thinke 3. haue disliked , and disclaimed them . Witnesse Ma. Fran : Iones , Ma : Iohn Pibush , Ma. Barkworth , and diuers others I could name if I were disposed . Concerning Cardinall Baronius , that hee should terme our brethren refractarij , I verily think he abuseth him , and that the wisedom of that man would neuer vtter such words of men , addressed vnto Christes vineard . But I may not omit the aduantage Fa : Parsons taketh at our saying , that some of our brethren , were sometimes as forward in liking some courses taken , and in pittying the cases of such as iustly felt the smart thereof , as at the Northerne , or Irish attempts heretofore &c. Howsoeuer Father Parsons list to wrest this saying , it doth shew as much as before I haue sayd , of the Martyrs aunswers : that our ignorance in such affaires vvas great , and therefore not to be imputed , as we hope to them it is not . But seeing and knowing , what now we see & know , no ignorance can excuse vs , if we disclaime not . Matters were then caried vnder a maske of zeale , and religion , and the verities of plots and treasons were vnseene of vs ; who euer detested disloialty . But theyr actions haue been since so open , that we could not but see , that religious pretences , were but fayre shewes to colour foule matters , which wee detest and hate , as no whit proportionable to religious , or priestly vocation . And to conclude this chapter of aduersaries , with father Parsons , I wonder that for shame he could note the Duke of Norfolke , as though any loyall person of the house of Arundell , hauing wit , or discretion , could be agreeued with vs , for detesting the disloyaltie of the Duke . I assure my selfe it is detested , and hated of all the honourable generation of that lyne . For will any man loue the sinne , or iniquity of any person , because the said person was his kinsman or parent ? what a ridiculous imagination were this ? And as for our asking , what the state will thinke of such priestes as come from the Seminaries heereafter , it is not ( as maliciously this Calumniator commenteth ) that we will doe theyr errands before they come ; but in respect of his trecherous , and trayterous dealings with them in the Spanish Seminaries , to draw them to treasonable actions : who now hauing got the gouernment , and managing of Rome , Doway , and all , may worke the like in those Colledges ; so that no place shall be free from suspicion to our state , of such practises against them . And thus we will end this Chapter , praying to GOD to forgiue all Calumniators , and draw them to more charitable courses , and then shall it be happy for Father Parsons . An aunswer to the fourth Chapter , concerning our pretended folly , in vttering open and manifest vntruths , and contradictions to our owne discredit . IT is a common practise amongst men , that meddle in broken matters , and such as will not abide the touch ( especially if they be cunning , and of wit and pollicie that meddle therein ) to seeke helps by shifts , circumstances , and by-matters , ( and those lesse to the purpose , when they are pressed , or called in question ) for such euill or vnlawfull affaires ; that thereby they may giue some glozing shew , and appearance vnto the world of innocencie , to iustifie their bad and corrupt dealing . And euen so fareth it heere with Fa : Parsons , who being taken tardy in his vndutifull dealings , and vniust practising against his naturall Prince , and Country , with such euidencie , and apparant facts , that conuince his guilty behauiour therein ; to colour , and hide these his foule faults , and make some shew of innocencie he flieth to by-matters , taking hold of such things , as are of least importance , alwayes flying , and shuffling , when hee commeth to the poynt that toucheth , and substance indeede of the accusation . For whereas both he , and some of his associates , are in particuler accused , as dealers in state matters , and practisers against their Country , and some plots , stratagems , and deuises of his , and theirs , and specified particulerly ; hee shuffeleth them off in hast , as though he were afraid much to meddle with them , onely snatching at some circumstances now and then , he leaueth the matter vnsatisfied , or fully aunswered . As where it is auerred in the Important considerations , that we thinke in our consciences , they haue beene instruments , and meddlers in all things which haue beene intended against her Maiestie : heere he keepeth great reuell , and maketh such a stirre , that he runneth ouer all the attempts , that were practised before their entrance into England , to shew that there were matters attempted before they came hither , or any English Iesuit was in authority . Which assertion being auerred , but opinatiuely , as that we think , they haue had their fingers in all matters , not absolutly auouching the same , is not a substantiall accusation , but a thing left in doubt , and suspence , as all matters vnder opinion are . And therefore that was but a by-matter , in respect of the reall facts , and attempts layd to their charge afterwards ; yet shall you finde , that he vseth the canuasing of these by-matters , to discredit all other reall accusations , and to make himselfe , and his associates , to seeme innocent in all t●e rest . But this cunning must not serue his turne , we will p●●inly let you see , wherein they haue directly offended in these kinds of dealing ; that they shall neuer be able to denie the same , with any shew of probability . And for diuers of the former deuises , we will giue you some reasons , and probabilities , that induced vs to thinke , that their heads haue beene hammering in all the rest . First , for his euasion in matters attempted before their entrance into England , or that any English Iesuit was in credit , it doth not follow , that therefore no Iesuits had their fingers in such attempts . Were there not Iesuits of other Countries to step into such actions ? In the action of Parry , you shall finde there were . Secondly , was not Fa : Darbishire a Iesuit , long before the English Iesuits came into England ? And I haue heard men , that knew him very well , affirme that hee was a great medler many yeeres agoe in such affaires . Might he not then haue his fingers in the French matters , concerning the Duke of Guise , and Queene of Scots ? Some will affirme , that he was an abetter therein . Thirdly , were not the Iesuits from the beginning , great with the Spaniards , whose fingers haue beene almost in all matters , as that of the Duke of Norfolke , that of Ireland , and diuers others ? Is it not somwhat probable by this , that the Iesuits might be Counsellers , or abetters in these affaires , being men of such stirring spirits , and so forward to put themselues into Princes matters , and dealings of state ? VVere they not likewise very great with Pope Gregory the thirteenth , their greatest benefactour , and most affectionate vnto their order of all Popes ? Might they not then be of counsell in Stukleys intention for Ireland ? Are not these great probabilities to induce men to think , they haue beene hammering from the beginning ; hauing had such faire offers , and so fit oportunities , and themselues being so ready , and desirous to deale in such kinde of affaires , as all the world seeth , both by experience , of Fraunce , England , Ireland , and other places ? Iudge by this , whether the assertion in the Important considerations , that wee thinke they haue beene instruments , and dealers in all practises from the beginning , against our Prince , be so voyd of reason , or probabilities , as Fa : Parsons would make you beleeue : or whether it be malice in vs to suspect the worst , vppon such probable grounds against such men , whom we know to be setled enemies against our Prince , and Countries safety ; as Fa : Parsons , and some other Iesuits are , and euer haue beene , as by the practises following , you shall euidently see , if you be not ouer blind , with affection towards them ; with which no man of wisedome in matters apparent , will suffer himselfe to be seduced . If you will excuse their intentions vpon affection , be it at your pleasures : but denie not , that the sunne is vp , when it is noone , for so I shall think you to be eyther too much affectionate , or starke blind . But what if Fa : Parsons haue falsified both our words , and our meaning ? In deede he hath so done , very notoriously . For page 14. of his book , where wee seemed to ascribe all the said mischiefes to our English Iesuits : wee did presently preuent this cauill , by a parenthesis , in these words : Wee meane both them , and others of that societie , with some of their adherents . Now this plaine fellow , leauing out this parenthesis , runneth ryot ridiculously with open mouth against vs. In deede the parenthesis was left out by negligence afterwards , page , 24. which was not greatly materiall , it being apparant , that wee ascribed all the treacheries , and treasons we there spake of , not onely to the Iesuits , but likewise to some of their good friends , that were then Iesuited in those desperate designments . But now let vs come to particulers , since their comming into England , which was in the yeere 1580. And first , we will begin with William Parryes action , which happened in the yeere 1584. his araignment was the xxv . of Februarie , and his execution , the second of March following . This William Parry departing England in the second yeere , after the entrance of the Iesuits , ( as appeareth by his examinations , araignment , and letters writ with his owne hand vpon record , conferred in Venice with a Iesuit , named Benedetto Palmio , of the hard state of England , concerning Cath : and by him was resolued , that he might lay violent hands vpon her Maiestie , and commended in that resolution , and encouraged there-vnto . Cōming afterwards to Lyons in Fraunce , and communicating the same againe , with some of the Iesuits there , he was also resolued in diuers points . And vppon these practises after his returne into England , being attached , arraigned , conuinced , & condemned , he confessed the whole matter at his arraignment , and by letters writ with his owne hand . Now let the world iudge by this , whether the Iesuits haue not medled in matters concerning her Maiesties person , and state . This fact of Parry , Fa : Parsons shuffles off with asking , whether it was by the plotting of any English Iesuit , not daring , to aske the question of Iesuits in generall , because he knew them to be guilty therein ; yet so hansomly was the question demaunded , with a clearing of himselfe afterwards , by Parries confession , that you would haue sworn ( I dare say ) that no Iesuit had intermedled in that action . See by this ( as at the beginning I told you ) how he fastneth vppon circumstances of English Iesuits , shuffling of the substantiall accusation , that the Iesuits practised with Parry in that action . Neither was it said in the Important considerations , that Parry dealt , or plotted with English Iesuits , but with the Iesuits . Nor that we thinke English Iesuits to haue had their fingers in all matters , but the Iesuits in generall , or some other infected with Iesuitisme , and their practises . And that Fa : Parsons had not his hand in this matter , was not for want of will ( as may be presumed by other actions since , ) or that he could not talke with the said Parry in Paris ( as he saith , ) but because Parry refused to conferre with him , as you may see by his confession , euen as Fa : Parsons hath set it downe . But by his leaue , I smell a Rat. Shall we thinke that any Iesuit in Paris , would haue dealt with Parry , Fa : Parsons being then in the Citty , but that he would first haue acquainted him there-with ? Are Iesuits so sparing , to impart such matters one to another ? It is well knowne they are not . Besides , is it likely that any man would haue offered , that Fa : Parsons should haue conferred with Parry , to haue confirmed him in his most villanous plot , except hee first had knowne his minde , and that hee was ready for such a hellish conference ? Shrug & shufflle good father Parsons as you list : I feare that all the water in the Thames , will not wash you cleane from this so barbarous a designement . Now will we come to Frauncis Throgmorton , the next after Parry , ( though fa : Parsons preposterously putteth him in the first place ) for hee was conuicted the 21 of May following . First his practises were all communicated and plotted , with Bernardino Mendoza the Spanish Embassador , wholie Iesuited , if not a Iesuit , and therefore it was not like , that these things should passe without their knowledge , priuitie , and consent . Besides , the plot was about one , and the same matter with that of Parries , especially concerning the Queene of Scots , in which ( as I haue shewed ) they were practizers . Add to this Mendoza his words , concerning fa : Parsons going to Rome about the matter , and that the Spaniard , & the Duke of Guise , were partners in these plots , with both whom ( all men know ) the Iesuits were very great . As for Mopp , alias Spring , whom he saith to be Ma. Charles Paget , Ma. Thomas Morgan cleered him by letters to Francis Throgmorton , frō dealing to moue any man in this attempt : but that he came onely to view the country . By which it seemeth altogether fained by fa : Parsons , that hee should deale with the Earle of North : and Ma. Shelley , whereby followed , ( as hee saith ) their ouerthrow . But in this I leaue the farther aunswer to Ma. Charles Paget himselfe : assuring my selfe , that he is abused heerein : although whatsoeuer hee dealt in this affaire , or any other , that might be preiudiciall to her Maiestie , or state , ( if he haue dealt in any ) it seemeth to haue been by the Iesuits perswasions , as you may see by his answer to the Apologie : where he hath these wordes : If I had dealt ( saith he ) in any matter of practise for our country besides you , ( as I neuer did ) but that you were the inuenters of the same , and the perswaders of me therunto ( the more vnfortunate that I had such directors . ) By which words you may see , that if Ma. Charles Paget were any dealer in this matter of Throgmorton , hee was vrged thereunto by the Iesuits . So that fa : Parsons bringing in Ma. Paget , must of necessity bring in himselfe , or other Iesuits . Add also vnto this , that Sir Frauncis Inglefield , had been vrging Ma. Throgmorton for almost two yeeres together vnto this plot , as by his confession appeareth : & all men know that Sir Frauncis Inglefield was wholy at the Iesuits deuotion . And fa : Parsons in the first chapter of his Apologie , the third leafe confesseth , that this Sir Frauncis Inglefield and hee , were ioyned in the affaires of our Country : by which it is more then probable , that fa : Parsons was a dealer in this action likewise . As touching the Earle of Northum : all the probability we haue that fa : Parsons was a stickler therein , or some other Iesuits , is this ; that in the Romane Colledge , before diuers of the students there , hee could deliuer the plot , and euery circumstance thereof so exactly , that all men which heard him , adiudged him to haue beene in the very bosome of that designement . In which discourse , he deliuered some particulers : as that it was plotted , that the Earles sonne should trauaile vpon licence out of England , and comming into Millaine , should haue been staied ( vnder I know not what pretences ) that thereby the Earle himselfe might haue been lesse suspected in England about his plot , and intentions . This fa : Parsons deliuered there , ( as diuers yet will witnes ) which could not but demonstrate him to haue been inward with that plot , in that also this intention concerning the Earles sonne , vvas vnknowne vnto the Queene and state , ( as I vnderstand ) vntill by this his discourse it was made publique . Note still ( gentle Reader ) how all circumstances bring in the Iesuits to be accessary to all plots and deuises . As concerning the plot of Babington , and the other gentlemen , it is not ascribed vnto the Iesuits directly , but onely alledged as an vndutifull practise , and treacherous against her Maiestie and state , by those gracelesse Iesuited gentlemen , whereby great hurt and preiudice arose vnto the Catholicks , and catholicke cause in our Country . And ( the matters beeing so apparently treasonable ) fault is found with Ma. Southwell , for that he excuseth it in his supplication , going about to lay all the blame thereof vppon the Secretary Sir Frauncis Walsingham , as though he had beene the inuenter , and layer of the plot , and perswader , or drawer on of the Gentlemen thereunto . Which is both false , and ridiculous to imagine , that he durst practise , in laying such dangerous plots of state without her Maiesties priuitie , howsoeuer his intentions were to breake the necke of all in the end , with the ouerthrowing of the dealers therein . Neither could the Gentlemen be excused , if he had been the first author and perswader thereof , for that no mans perswasion may excuse an euill act , that in it selfe is euill : for so might a man lay all his sinnes perhaps vpon the deuils backe . But howsoeuer Ma. Secretary Walsingham entertained the plot , ( after it was reuealed vnto him by some of the confederates ) to bring it vnto the ful perfection , wherein perhaps he did more , then hee had thanks for of her Maiestie , yet can it not be denied , but that the plot , & practise proceeded from themselues , and theyr owne confederats , and was by them really intended , as appeared manifestly by theyr owne confessions . And therefore to be excused afterwards by a Iesuit , could not but yeeld suspition vnto her Maiestie , and the state , of hollow loyaltie in Catholicks towards her : who would goe about to excuse apparant treasonable practises against her person , thereby to perswade her subiects , and others , that such as were iustly put to death for theyr treasons , were not guilty therein : but that they vvere onely plots and inuentions of the state themselues , which is to defame the publique iustice of a Prince : thē which a greater wrong cannot be done , especially when matters are apparant to the contrary . And that this fact of Ma. Southwell was iustly condemned , and disalowed as inconuenient ( to omit iniuries to her Maiestie and state ) the effects since haue demonstrated as much : the state hauing been more exasperated there-with , then with any pamphlet writ these latter yeeres : as hath appeared by the execution of three seuerall persons for onely medling therewith , and divulging it . Thus you see , that what hath been said concerning Anthony Babingtons matter , hath beene spoken with great reason , and moderation , without any accusation at all of the Iesuits therin , but onely touching our dislike of the excuse of this foule fact , afterwards made by Fa : Southwell , by which the inconueniencies specified arose , as all men will witnes . But sith Fa : Parsons is agreeued with that little , sparingly set downe in some fiue lines onely ; he must giue vs leaue to deliuer you some probabilities , where-vpon we could haue taxed them with suspition of dealing therein . The plot was but a continuance ( as it were ) of Parryes deuise , and Throgmortons practises , in which ( as you haue seene ) they and their fauourites were Counsellers , perswaders , and abetters , and therefore not improbable , that they would prosecute the same , when any opportunity should be fitly offered ; and a fitter thē this ( wherein so many resolute Gentlemen were combined ) they could not haue . That the Iesuits were not taxed of this , at the arraignments of these Gentlemen , or accused by their confessions , imports little . For you must know , that the Iesuits are wise , and cunning politicians , and can tell how to manage matters by secondary , or third meanes , lying aloofe off themselues , and being least seene or suspected , such as haue beene acquainted with their dealings know this , which I say , not to be voyde of truth . Hauing then had some experience in the faile of Parry his plot , and Throgmortons , in which ( especially the first ) they were neerely touched ; it behoued them to be more warie , and deale with more cunning , and secrecie then they had done . That Fa : Parsons , Fa : Holt , and Fa : Creswell , were at Rome , and Naples , is little to the purpose ; the intercourse of letters , and intelligences from all places , being so speedy , familier , and common with them , wheresoeuer they remaine , as it is knowne to be . Besides , at that time Fa : Darbishire lay in Fraunce , and ( vnlesse I be deceaued ) in Paris : a man fit ( by the reports of men of iudgement , to deale in such affaires , and with cunning enough . And to all this , the conference which Ma : Ballard had with their most entirely Iesuited friend Mendoza : and the sequell also of Fa : Southwells defence , or excuse . This haue we related , not to accuse the Iesuits directly with this plot of Babington , and his confederates ; but onely to shew you that lesse was said thereof in the Important considerations , then might haue beene , if the author had vttered those matters , of malice against the Iesuits , as Fa : Parsons affirmeth . Some thing further might be said heereof , concerning Fa : Weston ( that worthy wight ) his inward acquaintance , and familiarity with Ma : Babington , that sommer ●hat he was executed . But thereof wee will be silent at this time : neyther would I now haue made any mention of 〈◊〉 but that I finde our common aduersaries to be acquainted with it . Now are we come to Sir William Stanlyes yeelding vp of Dauentry , condemned in the Important considerations , as a cause also of exasperating our Prince , and state , against Cath : at home . Father Parsons after his accustomed manner , carpeth at his knighthood , giuen by Sir William Drury in Ireland , and not by the Earle of Leister in Flaunders , which being a by-matter from our purpose , little importeth , being that he receaued that degree by her Maiesties authority : and therefore it forced not by whose hands he receaued it . And for his holding the towne in the right of her Highnesse , or the right of the States , it as little importeth , considering that he was put in trust with it by her Maiestie , and vpon his alleageance to her , should haue discharged the trust , and fidelity , reposed in him in that charge . To dispute the case , whether hee might in conscience , or ought in danger of mortall sinne , deliuer vp the Towne to the King of Spaine , is not necessary to our purpose : yet this I will say , that all which Fa : Parsons hath said in proofe thereof , is not worth a rush , vnlesse hee proue two points : first , that her Maiestie is the person , that hath giuen the first cause of breach of the league with the Spaniards , which I think ( if matters be well examined ) will proue contrary , as you may see by the attempts made by the Spaniard , both secretly , and publiquely , against her Highnesse , and state , before aleadged , nothing being attempted by her against his Maiestie of Spaine , or any his Countryes . Which being true , then might she iustly , and in conscience , iure gentium , make warre against him , win his Townes , and Countries from him , and in right and iustice detaine them . Secondly , he must proue that Sir William Stanley , knowing in his conscience , that she had no iust cause of warre against the Spaniard , ( which I think he could not know ) might deliuer vp the said Towne , without a greater mischiefe to follow vpon such restitution : for a man is not bound to make restitution of goods euill gotten , or possessed mala fide , when without imminent danger of his owne , or other mens liues , he cannot doe ( as all Canonists will confesse ) because the life of a man is dearer then goods , and the lesse euill must be preferred , before the greater . As for example , if I should haue vniustly taken away the weapons of another man , and had beene malae fidei possessor : yet if I should perceaue that the true owner were paratus ad homicidium , and thereby eyther my owne life , or others , might be endangered ( if I should restore his weapons vnto him , which erst I had taken vniustly from him ) in this case it is euident , that I were not bound to make restitution , although I were ( as I haue said ) malae fidei possessor . So in this case of Sir William Stanleyes , if greater mischiefe might probably ensue thereof , then the deteyning of the Towne could be , he was not bound thereto . Which case Fa : Parsons hath not handled . Now will I referre the censure to other men , whether greater euill did not grow vnto our common cause in England , by this particuler fact of Sir William Stanlies , in that the state was thereby exasperated against all cath : for his fact , which great damage , and common hurt of his Country-men , and Cath : he was in charity bound more to regard , then the restitution of one Towne to the Spaniard . And therefore waying , and considering the auersion , and alienation of our state from Cath : for such facts as these , of Sir William , and the like : wee haue often wished , that if his conscience had felt any touch , or scruple concerning those warres , he had otherwise quietly left them off , or with-drawne himselfe , without giuing any such open occasion of complaint vnto the state . But his not onely deliuering vp of that Towne , but also ioyning himselfe with the Spaniard in field against his Soueraigne , and Country , may not be approued by any good subiect . And therfore I wish that so worthy a martiall man , had conuerted his sword against the Turke , or other common enemies , and not against his owne Soueraigne , and Country , that by his actions our Prince might haue had no iust cause to haue beene offended with vs at home . Aliens and strangers may doe what they will , and wee yet remaine blamelesse , if wee haue no part with them , because they are strangers ; but when naturall subiects of our owne Country , and Cath : shal in these iealous , and suspicious times , practise or conuert their weapons against their Prince , and Country : it cannot but incense their wrath , and indignation against all Cath : at home , as by experience we haue felt . Touching Fa : Parsons vrging of an Epistle writ by Card : Allen , in defence hereof , what might be his reason , or whether he did it of himselfe , or vrged there-vnto , by reason of the great expectance of the Spanish intention anno 1588. immediatly following , ( which we suspect ) I cannot tell : but I wish with all my hart , it had beene vnwritten , considering the little good hath come thereby . Neither is this to dishonour the worthy Card : ( as Fa : Parsons would make it ) but contrariwise to shew our loue , and honour , we beare towards him , in that we hartily wish such ouer-sights , or inconuenient actions ( as the best man in this life is not without imperfections , nor the wisest in his iudgement without errors ) had neuer proceeded from him . And whereas such things ( as the book written in the yeere 1588. & this Epistle ) are too too euident , and publiquely knowne to our state , and all men else : we seeke to excuse the same as much as in vs lyeth , that the fault , or rather the errour , may by circumstances seeme more tolerable , which no man of wit or discretion , can deny to be an euident demonstration of our loue , and affections towards him , as our dearest , and worthiest Father . Which cannot be odious , and offensiue in vs to our Prince , & state , as we trust in that duty , and nature bindeth euery man extraordinarily to loue their parents , and founders eyther naturall , or spirituall . And therefore to excuse them , is but a shew of filiall loue , and affection ; but obstinatly to defend , and maintaine that in a parent , which is no way approueable , were meere sycophancie , not loue , meere peeuishnes , not any tolerable affection . Now come we to the great attempt made by the Spaniards in the yeere 1588. out of which action Fa : Parsons exempteth all English Iesuits , because ( he saith ) himselfe , fa : Holt , and fa : Creswell , were then in Rome with Cardinall Allen : and that no English Iesuit at all was residing at that time , eyther in Spaine , or in the Low-countries . But all this proueth not , that therefore the Iesuits had no part in this action . Neither can it be probable to any man of iudgement , or vnderstanding , that the Iesuits beeing so great with the King , and so forward in attempts against our Country , hauing had their fingers in matters precedent , ( as you haue seene ) would now sit still , hauing so faire an offer made , and so good opportunity to be dooing ? I confesse that there was no great respect made to the English beyond the Seas in that action , ( nor in any other of the Spaniards will be , if euer matters come to issue ) nor perhaps were the English Iesuits called to be counsellers therein , as since they haue beene , because indeede the Spaniard intended a most bloody conquest , and translation of our state , and people . But to thinke that the Iesuits were not vrgers thereto , and setters forwards ( to theyr power ) of that attempt , were to contradict all reason , and probabilities . For first it is most certaine , that all the vvorld had very admirable expectance of that army , and the Iesuits more then any . Secondly it is plaine by the Cardinals booke , ( if it were his ) written as a preparatiue to that action , that hee was made Cardinall of purpose for that exployt , & to haue been sent hether presently vpon the Spaniards conquest . But Father Parsons saith , that he laboured to set forwards at that time the Cardinals preferment ( if you wil belieue him ) which maketh it euident , á primo ad vltimum , that father Parsons was a dealer in this action . Thirdly , it is also certaine , that the Iesuits in Rome , were great with the Spanish Embassador , liger there , and had great recourse vnto him , when the matter was on foote . Doth not this then argue them to be concurrers thereunto ? Fourthly , it is likewise most true , that the English Iesuits in Rome , appropriated certaine pallaces in London to themselues , to fall vnto their lots ( when this matter was in handling ) to wit Burley house , Bridewell , and an other , which I haue forgot , making themselues cocksure of their already deuoured pray . This all the students that liued in the Colledge at that time will witnes with me . Now would I demaund of you , what reasons they might haue to be their owne caruers , if they had not had some interest in that affaire ? Fiftly wee know , that they were more forward in Rome , concerning this matter , then the Cardinall , or any other , insomuch as at the first newes of the Spaniards comming downe into the narrow Seas , they vvould haue had Te Deum sung in the Colledge Church for ioy of victory , if the Cardinall had not staied it . Doth not this also shew , that they were as farre in the matter as Card : Allen , or any other ? And to conclude , did not the posting ouer of fa : Parsons into Spaine , presently after the ouerthrow of this armie , for farther dealing with the Spaniard for the time to come , and his better informations in English affaires , and fa : Holt , posting into the Low-countries for the like purpose , to keepe the Spaniard still in hope of future times , that this mishap might not with-draw him frō euer enterprising the like afterwards , shew that they were dealers in the former : doubtlesse all these circumstances cannot but sufficiently prooue it that they were , in the iudgement of wise men . Now , as touching the speech of the Duke of Medina Sidonia , wee haue already shewed out of Fa : Parsons ovvne speeches , that hee made no respect at all of Catholicks : neyther knew hee ( as Fa : Parsons said ) whether there were anie Catholicks in England , or not . The next poynt brought in by Fa : Parsons , is the last Irish attempt ; but before wee say any thing to that , wee must put his fatherhood in minde of his practises , concerning two other preparations , wherein he cannot deny himselfe to haue beene not onely a dealer , but also the very chiefe and principall actor ? The first was that wherein Doctor Stillington & some others got their death , which miscaried by reason of the ignorance of their Pilots , or rather by the prouision of God , 34. shyps beeing shiuered vpon theyr owne Bayes . If he denie this , wee haue Ma. Thomas Leake a reuerend priest , and others witnes thereto , with whom he dealt to goe in that Armie . And because Ma. Leake refused , he intreated him accordingly . This preparation was intended ( as thē was thought ) for Ireland . The second preparation was som three or foure yeeres after ( if I be not deceiued ) of which Fa : Parsons maketh mention in a letter writ to Ma. Thomas Fitzherbert frō Rome into Spaine , desiring to heare of the successe thereof , saying withall , that they had little hope of that attempt at Rome . This preparation ( as I remember ) was in the same yeere that the Earle of Essex went vnto the Ilands : and it miscaried also by tempests . One of the ships ( vnlesse I be deceiued ) was driuen into an Hauen in South-wales . These two preparations are so euident , to haue proceeded with his concurrence , and cooperation , as he no way can denie it without the note of impudencie , so many witnesses and his owne Letters , beeing in testimony against him . By this you may see how foolish , false , and ridiculous that protestation is , which he alleadgeth of Sir Frauncis Inglefield , & Ma. Thomas Fitzherbert , ( if any such were ) wherein they say , that neuer any conquest was intended by the old King of Spaine , nor by his Maiestie that now raigneth . For I vvould but aske Fa : Parsons to what end these preparations vvere ? whether they were to catch Butter-flies vppon the seas ? I think few men of vnderstanding will think , that good King Phillip meant to haue onely established Catholicke religion by force of Armes , and when he should haue seene himselfe maister of the field , and Crowne , would depart quietly : leauing all to our selues , as he found it . No , no , the sweet Kingdome of England , would haue been perhaps as precious vnto him , as his best dominions in the world . No lesse absurd is the protestation concerning Fa : Parsons , and Father Creswell , that they did neuer treat in their liues , nor consent , that the King of Spaine should haue any temporall interest in the Crowne of England : nor that the old King , or his Maiestie now raigning , euer intended any such thing , but onelie the good of Catholicks , and their ease . This is so friuolous , so childish , and so sencelesse a protestation , that I am ashamed to thinke of the folly thereof . What wise man will not laugh at Fa : Parsons , to heare him in such sober protestation affirme , that hee neuer intended , that the King of Spaine should haue any temporall interest to the Crowne of England , and yet by all his might & power seeke to make him Maister thereof , by inuasion and force of armes ; or that hee pretended nothing but the ease of Cath : when hee sought the cutting of their throats ? These are strange contrarieties , in words to protest our good , and in action to seeke our liues . VVas the booke of Titles , ( wherein the Kings daughter , the Lady Infanta was intitled to all her Maiesties Dominions ) writ to no purpose , but to exercise father Parsons wit ? VVas it a vaine speculation in the ayre , without relation to effect or end ? Or if it be a sottish dulnesse for any man to thinke so , how then was there no temporall interest sought to the Crowne of England ? But because the interest was layd vpon the Infanta , therefore belike father Parsons thinketh all inconueniences & absurdities salued , and himselfe excused . A simple shift to blind a buzzard . As though the Infanta could get , or possesse the crown of England , without asmuch preiudice to our Country , as if the King should haue taken the right to himselfe ? Must they not both come in by force of armes , & must not that be with conquest & subuersion of the state , debasing of all nobilitie , and translation of our English nation in the greatest part ? Can we expect lesse by a Spanish conquest , then wee found by the Norman , in the Conquerer his daies ? No certes . It wil be farre worse . Let any man but looke backe to those times , and see the miseries and oppressions , that fell vpon the English , with the slaughters , murders , and expulsions of all the nobility almost , and gentry of the Realme ; and doubtlesse he will detest the conceits of fa : Parsons herein , & hold him for the most deadly enemie that the English nation hath this day liuing . But to passe ouer this poynt , let vs now come to his excuse , concerning Irish matters : which is but a meere euasion , and to little purpose . For whether his finger were not in the last practise ( as may be somewhat probably coniectured , by the former attempt for Ireland , in which he was an actor ) or whether it were not , it is euident that the Iesuits were dealers therein , and Ma. Archer an Irish Iesuit , a chiefe moouer thereto , as appeareth by Letters written by Don Iohn d' Aquila , & intercepted by the Lord Deputie . There is a most trayterous letter of his extant , which in time may come to light . But should I labour to light a candle at noone-tyde , whose positions good Fa : are these ? The Catholicks in Ireland , may fauour the Earle of Tyrone in his warres , idque magno cum merito , et spe retributionis aeternae , and that with great merit , and hope of eternall reward , ac si bellum contra Turcas gererent , as though they warred against the Turks . 2. All Catholicks doe sinne mortally that take part with the English against Tyrone , nec possunt aeternam salutem consequi , and can neither be saued , or absolued from theyr sinnes by any priest , vnlesse they repent and leaue the English . 3. Idem censendū est . &c. They are in the same case that shall helpe the English with any victuals , vel quid simile tribuunt , or any such like thing . 4. The most worthy Prince Hugh O Neale , and other Catholicks of Ireland , that fight against the Queene , are nullo mod● , by no construction Rebels . How say you Frier Robert , out of what forge came these warlike engins ? They were hammered in Salamanca the 7. day of March , 1602. and are as you see red hot . But vvhat Vulcan was the workman of them ? You shall heare euerie one of them speake for themselues . Sic ego . &c. So I Iohn de Sequenza , professor of Diuinitie in the Colledge of the societie of Iesu , in the famous Vniuersity of Salamanca , censeo , do thinke . Idem conseo ego , I Emanuell de Royas , professor of Diuinitie in the same Colledge of the societie of Iesu , am of the same opinion . Et ego , &c. And I Iasper de Mena , professor of Diuinitie , & of the sacred Scripture in the same Colledge , doe assent to these Fathers sentence , tanquam omninò certae , as to an assured truth . Ego , &c. I Peter Osorio , Preacher in the Colledge of the societie of Iesu , at Tire , am altogether in iudgment with these Fathers . Now Fa : Parsons , speake out man , haue any of your company been practicioners in the treasons of Ireland ? The Catholick Author of the Iesuits Catechisme , telleth vs , that all the late rebellious treacheries , & murthers he there mentioneth , were plotted & contriued in the Colledges of the Iesuits in Fraunce . And doe not these Iesuiticall professors tell vs as much of their owne proceedings in their Colledges of the societie of Iesu in Spaine , for our treasons , rebellions , and murthers in Ireland ? May I be so bold as to imitate these Spanish Diuines style ? Ego F. B. doe professe in the sight of almigh●●e God , and to the whole Catholicke Church , that I do veri●●e thinke in my conscience , the said foure Propositions to be most false and vnchristian : and that howsoeuer certaine Iesuits and theyr followers doe dissemble , and equiuocate for the time vvith some men heere in England , who shew too much weakenes in beeing so greatly led by them , and what vaine , and childish euasions soeuer this foxed Father of ours deuiseth to shift of matters from himselfe , and his societie , not of Iesu , in these points , yet if euer they be able to procure another inuasion , or to stirre vp any Tyrone in England , these trayterous positions , hatched in hell , will be againe reuiued amongst vs by them . If this concerne the state to be considered of , it vvere well it were looked into in time . I can be but sory , that the auncient Christian faith and religion of Christ , should thus be scandalized by Machiauillians , vnder pretence of the blessed name of Iesu . As concerning Fa : Parsons letter to Fa : Holt here cited , out of the which he onely noteth what pleaseth himselfe , but yet in such sort , as if his wits were breeched ▪ or that the man had been building Castles in the ayre . In one part of that letter , hee talketh of a Catholicke Prince to be thought of after her Maiesties death , whether Spanish , Scottish , French , or other . Is it not strange that a Frier should thus bestir him ? In any wise mans iudgement , it includeth much folly , great ignorance , no small pride , and a world of factious garboyles , and mutinies . His folly and pride appeare , in that hee will intermeddle in matters so farre beioynd his reach , as though hee could dispose of kingdoms , and successors to Crownes . We shall sure haue a Neuell , Earle of Warwick of him , to erect and depose Kings at his pleasure . His ignorance is also as manifest , in that he is so simple as to thinke , that his plots or dissignements shall be like to take effect in those times ; or that the Catholicks ( if they would follow his Chimericall conceits ) should be able to make a King at their pleasures , and dispossesse the right successors , or frustrate the designement of the whole Common-wealth . And it is cleere that his hart is possessed with a world of tumults , in that therby he would make our cou●●●y a perpetuall Campe of hostilitie . For doth he thinke , that ●ny true Competitor will loose his right for his invasions , or ●●at his Maiestie , our neighbour Prince , will sit stil , while he createth Kings ? Or that the Cōmonwealth , will yeeld the dispose of the scepter to his worships designement ? See what blood-shed this fellow would draw vpon vs , with his Machiauillian deuises , to the vtter ruine and subuersion of the whole . Besides his folly , I say , which appeareth in this letter ( as himselfe citeth it ) and tendeth to the ruine of our Country , and Common-wealth , as you see : wee haue noted to him other Letters writ to Master Thomas Fitzharbert into Spaine , concerning the Kings preparation against England : which sufficiently discouereth his affections towards his Prince , and Country . And we can alledge his Letter , written to the Earle of Angus the 24. of Ianuary , 1600. wherein he confesseth , that he had laboured eyght or tenne yeeres for his Maiestie of Scotland , and the preferment of his title , with the summe of twelue hundred Crownes a yeere for 2. yeeres together from Spaine , which were as hee saith , disbursed in the yeere 83. & 84. As also 4000. crownes , procured to the same effect , from Pope Gregory the 13. by bill of exchange , which he confesseth he brought to Paris , and there deliuered it . And hee saith the same had continued , if any correspondencie of gratitude , or hope had continued from Scotland : with no small assurance of farre greater matters , & aduancement to the Kings person , if the enemies since of both our Realmes ( as he saith ) had not ouerthrowne , and altered that course . This he hath in that Letter , and much more . Whereby you may perceiue , what his practises haue been from time to time , against her Maiestie , and state : seeking first ( as you see ) by large pensions got from Spaine , to worke with the Scots , and others , for the vntimely aduauncement of his title , which must haue beene with the ouerthrow of her Maiestie , or otherwise ( you know ) it could not haue been . And here I request the Reader , to note these labours of father Parsons for the affaires of Scotland , to haue beene in the yeeres 1583 , & 1584 , in which selfe same yeere , happened the trayterous plots of Parry , Fran : Throgmorton , and the Earle of Northumberland , and the practises with the Duke of Guise , Spaniard , and other English abroad , about the deliuery of the Queene of Scots , and ouerthrow of her Maiestie , and shortly after the treasons of Babington , and his complices . Which I note , that you may see how fa : Parsons courses concurred at the same instant with their attempts : and by this you may gesse , whether it be not more then probable , that hee was inward with all those deuises , & perhaps some of that mony was imploied to the setting forward of those attempts , though hee vvould seeme cleere in all things . But it is Gods will , that his ovvne Letters and writings , should discouer his dealings . There want not other Letters of his , and his complices , which shew his good will towards our Soueraigne & country : but these shall be sufficient at this time . Now will we come to the obiections made against him , concerning his intituling the Spaniards to the Kingdoms of England , Fraunce , and Scotland , and of the Students subscribing in Spaine to the Lady Infanta her title , as also concerning the Lord Dacres , and diuers of our nation , discredited by fa : Parsons , to the losse of some of their liues , and lastly of the booke of Titles , or succession : to all which wee will aunswer in order . To the first , of intituling the Spaniard vnto England , Fraunce , and Scotland , it is plaine , & euident in it selfe , that by intituling them to England , consequently he intituled them to Ireland , and all her Maiesties dominions , and to Fraunce , because of the right wee pretend to that Crowne . Touching Scotland , it may follow by a sequell of neighborhood : because ( you know ) the Spaniards creepe euer forwards , louing rather to gaine by theyr neighbors an ell , then lose an inch . For by reason of the imminent danger of that Crowne , and the rather , because that King is a Competitor to England , and therefore sustayning great wrong by his inuading of vs ; would no doubt stirre and make warre against him , which happily might occasionate his ouerthrow , and losse of that Kingdome likewise . So that fa : Parsons falsly intitling the Spaniard vnto the Crowne of England , doth also in effect , intitle him to Scotland likewise , in that hee could not possesse the one quietly , without the other , considering the wrong that of necessity must be done to the Scot , which would make him stirre so long , as he were able to leauie but a thousand men , or procure ayde from neighbours adioyning . I doe not take vppon mee to determine of any mans right , or title , praying with my hart , that her Maiestie may long cōtinue amongst vs : but do note in a word , what bloodie mischiefe fa : Parsons doth breathe out in his famous libell of succession . For the proofe of the second obiection , of the schollers beeing vrged to subscribe to blankes , and to confirme the Infanta her title to the Crowne of England , is a matter very notorious and euident . VVee haue diuers priests yet aliue in England , to confirme the same by othe , aswell of them , that were inforced to subscribe against theyr wills , as others that openly refused the same . I doe therefore wonder to see the mans vnshamefast deniall of so manifest and apparant a truth . As touching the fained matter of the Cardinalls deuise for certaine courses to be held in our country after her Maiesties time , and his proposing of the same to diuers , it is a most egregious calumniation against the deceased Cardinall , & all men may easily see it to be but a meere inuention of fa : Parsons , in naming onely two persons deceased , Sir Frauncis Inglefield , and Doctor Stillington for witnesse , knowing vvhat proofe a dead witnes may carry , eyther in Court or country . Besides , there were diuers men of wealth of ou● nation , with whom hee was as like , or more like to haue communicated the same , as with the two dead persons named , who for ought I can learne , neuer heard of any such speeches from him . Whereby you may see by whom the worthy Cardinall is disgraced , and dishonoured now hee is dead , beeing by Father Parsons drawne into all foolish , and fond deuises , as an actor with so factious creatures , in matters by themselues deuised . But they which disgraced him liuing in his latter dayes , will not suffer him of likelihood to rest quiet , now hee is dead . Concerning his proposing the booke of Tytles to haue been reade , in the Refectory in Rome , in steed of a spirituall Lecture , vsed to be reade at such times : there be diuers yet that will depose the same against him ; and Ma : Lowbery now a reuerend priest , was the man should haue read the same , but he reiected it , vtterly refusing to meddle with such stuffe . To the third poynt concerning the L. Dacres vsage amongst them , we will referre the relation thereof to Ma : Charles Paget , best acquainted there-with , who hath promised ( if Fa : Parsons surcease not ) to discouer his vsage with others . To the fourth matter of diuers disgraced by him , and his complices ; it would make a huge volume , to set downe the particularities of euery one that hath beene abused by them in this kind . And therefore we will reserue it for a particuler treatise of purpose ▪ if occasion inforce vs heereafter , to discouer more at large their particuler dealings against particuler men . Onely at this time I will note vnto you one or two notable examples . The first shall be of Ma : Barkworth , now I trust in heauen . This Ma : Barkworth being a priest in the Colledge of Vallidolid , was by the Iesuits suspected to be a furtherer , and concurrer with certaine youths , that entred into the order of S. Benedict . Whereof Fa : Parsons hauing intelligence , did write to the Rector of that Colledge , that he should be dismissed presently , shewing in his letters some anger , that he stayed so long . Where-vpon the Minister of the Colledge came vnto him one morning ( being sicke of a feauer , and not well recouered ) and bad him to arise , and make himselfe ready to walke with him , saying , that it would be wholsome for him to walke , and shake off his Feauer , and not to yeeld thereto . When they were departed out of the English Colledge , he led him into the Colledge of the Iesuits , and leauing him in a paued roome , he tooke occasion to depart from him , vpon some affaires , to speake with one of his fellow Iesuits in that house . And comming back againe vnto him , hee brought the Rector of the Iesuits Colledge with him : who entred into an inuectiue , and bitter discourse against him , and the conclusion was as followeth . He commaunded him to put off his Scholers robes , to put on a sute of ragges ( which they offered him ) to depart the Colledge , and Citty , and to shift for himselfe ; saying , that he was not worthy to stay longer there , neither should , and that for a viaticum to helpe himselfe in his trauaile , he should not haue so much as a Spanish reall , which is but sixe pence English . Ma : Barkworth perceauing their intentions , told them , that he would not depart with such disgrace , hauing not offended ; in that if he had concurred with the fore-said youths , for their entrance into Religion , yet was it not such a fault , as could deserue such expulsion , their wills being not in his power to rule or commaund . The Rector seeing he would not dispoile himselfe , and put on those ragges to depart , called in certaine of his lay brethren , strong fellowes , to deale with him by violence , and to enforce him to change his habite . Whereof two comming vnto him , catched him by the legges , and pulling them from vnder him vpon a suddaine , threw him backward flat vpon the pauement , with such violence ( being then sicke , and weake with a Feauer ) that hee was much brused there-with , and in a great maze presently vpon his fall , the rest of the lay brethren apprehended some a legge , some an arme , and so drew him into another roome paued in like manner , as in those hote Countries , all roomes for the most part are . He being , as I say , thus amazed , and perceauing them to pull , and hale him , fearing belike , that they would murder him , vsed these words , but in the Spanish tongue : What will you kill me ? will you kill me ? let me first confesse me . When they had thus dragged him into the other roome , with strugling , and striuing , he got vpon his feete . No sooner was hee vp , and recollected , but that one of them gaue him such a stroke with his first vpon the face , that hee felled him down backward againe . With this blow he was so brused in his face , that when he was cold , afterwards he was not able to vtter his words , that one though neere him , might well vnderstand him , what he spake . Whilst this was in hand , and the Rector of the Iesuits Colledge , and the Minister of the English Colledge , Fa : Blackfan being spectatour of this cruell , and inhumaine tragedy , in came a Spanish Iesuit , of a noble house in Spaine , and finding them in this sort abusing so outragiously this priest , he reproued them for it ; and told them it would be a great shame vnto them , if the world should be witnes thereof . Heere-vpon they left off , and hauing better bethought themselues of this fact so outragiously committed , they intreated him to keepe silence thereof , and not to make the other Scholers acquainted heere-with , and they would kindly intreate him heere-after : he should haue large faculties , a good viaticum , when he went for England , and all the friendship they could shew him else . Heere-vnto he seeming to yeeld , they priuily conuayed him backe to the English Colledge , & brought him to a sequestred chamber , where he lay vntill his recouerie . But some of the Scholers , that then were in the Colledge ( as there were then not aboue 9. or 10. the rest being sent away to another place , for feare of the plague at that time in the Citty ) seeing him come in all brused , began to suspect some ill measure . So that notwithstanding their secret conuaying him into a sequestred chamber , they found him out , and resorted vnto him ; which one of the Iesuits perceauing , spake vnto them saying , Take heede , come not neere him , for we verily think he hath the plague . This speech they gaue out to feare the Scholers from resorting vnto him , that they might not see , into what pleight they had brought him . But for all they could doe , they could not hinder them but that they would , & did see him . The Physician being sent for vnto him , and feeling of his pulse , not knowing what had happened , sayd , that hee had suffered great violence ; by which you may gesse , how strangely hee was handled in this combat . I know there be diuers , that wil thinke this History strange , and incredible ; but if it chaunce , that Ma : Charles Paget doe but set downe the actions of Fa : Holt , especially concerning Ma : Godfray Foulgeam ( the very cause of whose death hee was ) you shall see more strange matters then this . And for the proofe of this History of Ma : Barkworth , my selfe haue heard it related of three or foure seuerall parties witnes thereof , and such as desire more certainty heerein , I referre them vnto those , that were then in the Colledge of Vall●dolid , and saw him in this extremity , and heard him afterwards deliuer the whole course of their proceedings with him in the Iesuits Colledge , as heere it is set downe . Of which number some are priests , who haue vppon their faith , and fidelity , deliuered the story thus vnto me , ( as from his owne mouth ) and their owne eyes being witnes to part of it . Another example of their vncharitable dealing , was with Ma : Fixar ( one of the most famous men of our Nation , for diuers good parts in him ) whom first heere in England they disgraced , with the note of espiall most vniustly . And afterwards he being in great credite in Lisbone in Portugale , with the Bishop ( if I be not mistaken ) was by Fa : Parsons meanes with-drawne thence vnder colour of greater preferment . And when they had him thence into Spaine , they confined him into an out place , with such disgraces , & disgusts , that he shortly died . These two I thought good to set down , omitting infinite more examples of his , and other English Iesuits , their vncharitable dealings against diuers , yea most part of our Country-men , especially the Gentlemen abroad in banishment . Beleeue me , it were farre more ease , and tolerable for any Cath : to liue at home , and endure the afflictions of our Country for their consciences , then to liue abroad in Spaine , Italy , or the Low-countries , and to suffer that at the Iesuits hands , which I know diuers to haue done . To the fift and last point of accusation , concerning the booke of Succession , put out in the name of one Dolman a secular priest ; whatsoeuer his friuolous excuses may be of vir dolorum , it may haue a fitter construction from dolus , then dolor , in that the whole worke is naught else , but a deceitfull conference , and treatise , to bring an old rotten fayned title , neuer dreamed of before this vir dolorum , coyned it out of a whole Tessaradecades of genealogies , and generations so long agoe , that the very Iland it selfe might haue beene turned topsey turuy , since the first spring or roote of that title ; and many a score , yea hundreds yet aliue that doe step before it . And no lesse a deceite it seemeth to be , that he would put it forth in the name of a reuerend auncient Priest in England , to bring him into danger for the same . Whereas he sayeth , that hee neuer knew Ma. Dolman , it is a manifest vntruth . For he not onely knew him , but also knew him to be one of the most principall priests of our Nation , both for the reuerence of his yeeres , grauity , iudgement , and 〈◊〉 good parts , that hath alwayes opposed himselfe againste the vniust , and exorbitant courses of the Iesuits , whereof 〈◊〉 : Parsons hauing such continuall , and certaine informations of euery man in particuler , and their affections , could not be ignorant , especially he being the onely man of respect , amongst the chiefe Cath : of account , in the East parts of England . And therefore it may well be presumed that this vir dolorum , as he calls himselfe , did dolo malo of purpose publish the same vnder his name , thereby to doe him a good turne , if he could . Wee know the Iesuits charity towards their back-friends , and such as stand in their way . And whereas in disgracefull sort he seemeth to excuse him from such an intention , because forsooth ( as he sayeth ) Ma : Dolmans talent is knowne to be farre inferiour to such a labour : you may gather his loue , and affection towards him , & how willing he is to doe him a good turne , if it lay in his power . Wee can assure you that all that know the man ; and speake not of him in spleene and hatred ( because he is not a fauourer , but an aduersarie to the Iesuits proceedings ) cannot but confesse , that he is a man of excellent good parts , and not inferiour to most of Fa : Parsons faction in England : And therefore no vnlikely matter , that a worthier peece of stuffe , then this Libell of Succession , might proceede from his endeuours , if hee would be so idle , as to busie himselfe about such vngratefull toyes . After these obiections Fa : Parsons by the mistaking of a word falsely printed , viz : greenewatt for greenecoate , of purpose maketh himselfe ignorant of the matter , which he knoweth as well , as a begger knoweth his dish . For he cannot be ignorant of his owne speeches deliuered in Greenecoate , alias , Leisters Common-wealth ; a booke written by himselfe , to the disgrace of the late Earle of Leister . Wherein he sayeth , that difference in Religion ( speaking in the behalfe of the Scottish tytle ) ought to be no barre in the inheritance to the Crowne . Thus you see him , like a weather-cocke , turning euery way . But now he is become so religious , in the behalfe of the Spaniard , that he will haue them all to goe together by the eares , and one to cut anothers throat : yea , suffer all the villa●●●es , and miserable oppressions in the world by the Spaniard , ●●cause he is a Cath : rather then to admit of the Scot for that 〈◊〉 is not so , or of any other in his case ; and will needes haue all men bound , without all temporall respects whatsoeuer , vnder payne of damnation to striue to bring in a Cath : Prince , against the true heire , and him that hath the best title . Which generall proposition how absurd it is , and against the very law of nature , we haue else where shewed . For by the same reason were the Christians bound , being in great multitudes in the primitiue Church ; yea , and whole legions of them souldiers , and therefore in more likelyhood to haue preuailed therein , then a few vnarmed Cath : here in England , to haue ioyned their forces at euery change , for the erecting of a Christian Emperour : the same being a thing of greater importance to Gods Church , then for any King , or Prince of so small an Iland to be a Catholike . Neither can the difference of heresie , and infidelity , the one being a subiect to the Church , and the other none , much helpe the matter , for your Emperours many times went by election , and faction of the souldiers , and hee that could get the force of the souldiers to proclaime him , and bring him in , was the true Emperour , without respect of blood , kindred , or linage : and therfore there was more reason for the Christians so to haue done at that time , then for Cath : in these . But yet they held no forcible courses , I meane the Christians , nor thought it lawfull so to doe . As concerning the letter to the Earle of Angus , we haue already shewed sufficient out of it to the same purpose , it was cited in the Important considerations . The whole course of the letter being somewhat long ( after Fa : Parsons manner of writing familiar Epistles , ) is to no other end , then to shew his diligence bestowed 8. or 10. yeeres , for the King of Scotland , his vntimely aduantage to the crowne of England . And for the matter of the French Embassadors going to the Pope , to procure audience for our first two messengers , Ma. Doctor Bishop , and Ma. Charnocke , he may aske Ma. Nicholas Fitzherbert thereof . I doubt not , but hee can resolue him therein of the truth . Whether it was the French Embassador or a Cardinall , it was an office agreeable to their humours & dignitie . Neither is it to the purpose that the Duke of Cessa laughed , or is fained to laugh by fa : Parsons , for all was but a Spanish laughter , and so must be reputed nothing discrediting any action of ours : vnlesse he thinke gestures & laughters , can put vs like children out of countenaunce . But he is much mistaken : for if laughing will serue the turne , we can laugh as fast as either Fa : Parsons , or the Duke either : be it spoken without touch to his degree , which wee respect in him , and all persons of Maiestie , grace , or honour . VVe will heere omit the vsage of our two messengers , because else where wee haue spoken sufficient thereof , but yet he hath heaped vp such a farthell of vntruths in the onely relating of them , as that they were heard for three months together , that they were not cast into prison , that iustice by that action was not violated . &c. that I am ashamed to see such palpable vnshamefastnes , not one word beeing true , as by our former discourse to his holines ( where things must be fifted to their verities ) you may see : and also in the copies of discourses . If furthermore you please to read Ma. Doctor Bishops aunswer to fa : Parsons letter , and the censure vpon the same , there you shall find the straightnes of their vsage , with a strange imprisonment vnder Fa : Parsons theyr Gayler , and that they were neuer admitted to deale about their busines , nor heard : but onely once , beeing accused before the two Cardinalls . But these are the straynings and ouerstraynings of fa : Parsons , to defend his proceedings , which I told you of him in the preface . For his question , how the restraining of a couple of priests may be both blaspemie to the sea Apostolick , and to her Maiestie , I aunswere him that this is a forgery , and an imposture of his owne , and no such coniunction made in the Epistle by him cited . Onely it is there said , that neither his holines , nor any other competent Iudge , euer heard of the coggery , preiudice , and blasphemy done against the sea Apostolicke , and the sacred Maiestie of our Prince : not that their imprisonment was either coggery , preiudice , or blasphemy to her Maiestie , but that by their imprisonment , his holines could not heare of their preiudiciall dealings against our Prince and state , nor of their coggery and blasphemy against the Sea Apostolicke , all Princes and Prelats in the world , being in a sort abused by such dealings . As touching fa : Parsons returne into Spaine , whether by Mendoza his commendations , or not ( which little importeth ) we will omit , as not much to the purpose . All the world by experience seeth , that his going thether , was not for any good to our country , but to procure inuasions , and to raise a new bloodie title to the Crowne of England . I will note but two circumstances in this fathers discourse of this matter , not to be omitted : the first is , that no letter , or message passed for many yeeres together betweene Mendoza and him , to wit , after the desastrous affaire of Ballard , and Babbington . By this you see that Letters , and messengers were wont to passe between them before this desastrous affaire : and so it is very probable , that fa : Parsons was made acquainted with all those practises , wherein Mendoza had dealt , concerning Throgmorton & Babington , by those letters , and Messengers . The second obseruation is , that when Mendoza some yeeres after returned to Madrill , there passed great expostulation betweene them two , about that affaire of Babbington , and some other such matters . Wherein the said Embassador had beene thought to haue beene ouer-much ledde by the forward men , and their mates . Doth not this shew first , that Mendoza was a subiect to the Iesuits by some hand or other ; or else , why should Father Parsons a Iesuit , expostulate matters with a Duke , a Prince , & an Embassador to so great a King ? How durst he otherwise haue noted by way of expostulation ( which sheweth an authority ) his beeing ouermuch misled by the forward men , which insinuateth a dislike or checke , for following too much the aduise and directions of such men , blaming the manner , and circumstances , but not directly the matter . Doe not these circumstances leaue a suspicion of Fa : Parsons consent to that plot , though he disliked that Mendoza was ouermuch ledde therein by the forward men . See how God will that father Parsons should bewray himselfe . An aunswer to the fift Chapter , concerning our pretended folly : and malignant spirit , in obiecting certaine bookes to father Parsons , which tend to his commendation , and of his confutation of a little Treatise , in answer to his booke of Succession . NOw are we come at length to the fift chap : of bookes obiected to Fa : Parsons , which he will haue to increase his credite . Of these bookes he citeth 4. in number vrged by vs , to wit , Philopater , the ward word : the high counsell of Reformation , or Memoriall , ( as hee termeth it ) and the booke of Titles , or succession to the Crowne . These hee nameth , but leaueth out the scurrilous pamphlets of Perneus and Greene coate , or Leisters common-wealth , with such other of that rabble ; full of exasperations against the Queen & state , and very scandalous , as conteyning infamous slaunders against both , and in particuler against some of the counsell : which could not but giue occasion to incense them ( beeing in power and authoritie ) against all Catholicks , and priests in England . And all England knoweth , that the booke against the Earle of Leister , did mightily auert him from all Catholicks in generall . But it is a true saying , which often I haue heard spoken of father Parsons , that hee will rather lose his friend then his iest , & it is verified in all his proceedings . For if once he apprehend a course , he wil thorow with it , though all the world smart for it : of so violent , and pernicious , and head-strong a nature he is . But to come to the bookes which by himselfe are cited . Of the two first , viz. Philopater , and the Ward-word , he saith no more , but that they be in defence of the Catholicke cause ; the first , against the rigorous Edict , the second , against a bloody-minded Knight . As for the first , it is full of most bitter rayling , & arrogant exasperations , as euery man that hath read it can tell ; besides foolish scoffings against great persons , which no man of wisedome and charitie would haue vsed in these times , vnlesse he had meant to whet a double edged sword to cut Catholicks throats . The second was a fond and foolish reuiuing of a dead matter , not worth a rush ; no man either thinking , or regarding the follies of such a pamphlet . But by his raking againe in the old forgotten dunghill , he hath raised vp such new stirres , and drawne such persons into the matter , that ( as euery man may see ) the dead matter is now new on foote , and aliue againe , and in a more hurtfull sort then before . Let him see what the Deane of Exceter , Ma. Doctor Sutcliffe , hath written in aunswer of his Wardword , and iudge whether the wound be not worse then before . The Knights obscure toy , no man regarded : but I dare not say so of Ma. Doctor Sutcliffs booke . And this was the wisedom of this good Fa : in aunswering the Watchword , needes he must haue his iest , though it cost him deere . As touching his third pamphlet of Reformation , it is a world to see the pride of the man to take vpon him , to meddle with all estates , and giue rules and directions , what must be done , as well in the Court , as Country : Clergie , as Laïty . And when , forsooth , must this be done ? Mary when our Country is reduced againe to Catholicke religion . But when or how must that be , doe you know ? Presently forsooth by a Spanish conquest . For you must vnderstand , that this worke was hatched about the same time , or immediatly after the booke of Titles , if not before : so that you see the booke of Succession was for the conquest , and this for Reformation to follow . What simplicity was it for a man of wit , or vnderstanding , to thinke that after a Spanish conquest , hee should haue the managing of matters for our Country , to prescribe orders , & lawes : as though the Spaniard would haue deliuered all matters into Father Parsons hand , and hee must haue beene Lycurgus , to direct all . Alas poore man , or rather mad man , how great a conceit soeuer you haue of your selfe , and how much so euer you presume of your greatnes with the Spaniard , you must giue me leaue to thinke , that when that time had come ( as God forbid it euer should ) Ma. Spaniard would haue as little regard to Fa : Parsons , in those affaires , as to any of vs. I will omit his fond supposall of easie reformation : because both our Clergie , and Catholickes , hauing liued in persecution all this time , would willingly concurre to a holy and perfect reformation : as who would say , that all difficulty in that point should remaine in the priests , and Catholickes of our owne nation , and not rather in the Spaniards , who then must be our good Maisters , and of like , the greatest number , at the least in all authorities , both in Court , & Country ( as in conquests happeneth ) and all men know the Spaniards to be the most licentious people in Europe : especially the souldier . Where is now your ground ( fa : Parsons , ) of an easie reformation ? but commonly great folly , and blindnes followeth pride , euen in the wisest men . And if father Parsons say , that this Treatise of Reformation , was not intended vppon any conquest ( although it is euident that it was ) yet is it both foolish , and arrogant : Foolish , in that hee buildeth Castles in the ayre , knowing neither when , by whom , nor how the reduction of our country shall happen , and therefore an hundreth to one , that his foolish Chimeras will be either forgot , or cōtemned when that time happeneth . Arrogant , in that thereby he seemeth to think , that at such times our coūtry should want men of wisedome , or piety , or both , to see what will be then conuenient , and put the same in execution , vnlesse , he prescribe them before hand , & tell them what they must do . But to open a little more in particuler his great folly heerein , such as haue read the said Treatise , ( beeing priests and men of credite , vnto some of whom Fa : Parsons himselfe shewed the said booke , as secretly as now it is kept ) doe report that his directions are , that the municipall lawes of our Country shall be so altered , that the Ciuill lawes must beare the sway . And this is the more probable , because hee shuffleth it of , saying little or nothing to this obiection , nor bringing in one word of the Memoriall in proofe hereof , or of the disposition of the Innes of Court , how they should be imploied , though he toucheth both , but so as if he were afraid to shew what he hath written thereof for shame . For our Clergie also , they say , that all men should be put to pensions in the beginning : and the Colledges both in Oxford and Cambridge , in the same sort depriued of theyr lands and reuenues , and becom pensioners . And this hath beene maintained to my selfe by some of his fauourites , as a thing necessary ( with great vehemencie ) both for edification , as also the disposing of the ouerplus to other good vses , in the behalfe of the Church . And that which is sayd heere to this purpose in excuse hereof is so little , and nothing at all of Colledges , that it is apparant he was vnwilling to manifest his follies therein . VVhat he sayth of the King and Counsell , hee will not tell you , for doubtlesse it is good stuffe . Of the nobility hee leaueth out what he hath said concerning theyr pompe , traine , reuenues , and diet : & concerning the inferiour nobility , ( which is our gentry ) as Knights , Esquires , and Gentlemen , he noteth her Maiestie indirectly with oppression , and contempt thereof to her dishonour : which sheweth his pride , and carelesse cariage towards all sorts . Touching religious orders , ( which hee noteth , as a member of his diuision of the Clergie , in his Epistle , ) he sayth not one word at all , but shuffleth it off as forgotten , because therin he should haue discouered his loue and affection to all orders of religious people , besides his owne . All which orders ; ( one order onely excepted ) he excludeth out of England ( as they affirme ) for the first seauen yeeres or more , that Maister Iesuits in the meane time might haue the sway of all , and enter into the houses , liuings , and possessions of other religious orders , if they could . Thus he shuffleth and cutteth , sparing no estate ; and yet heere he citeth you some fragments of the best stuffe he could picke out of that proude pamphlet , to make you belieue that his indeuours therein , were holy , and zealous , meerely for the good of Gods church , & his country . Sometimes he calleth them excellent notes , and obseruations , and so proudly extolleth himselfe therein , as he dareth to affirme , ( though like a stage-player he taketh vppon him an other person then his owne ) that the contradictors of this his fantasticall worke , haue neither vertue , nor ability to imitate him . Certainly , the man hath a great conceite of his owne dooings , and is too much ouercarried with partialitie , and ouerweening of himselfe . For otherwise , let any man of iudgement and indifferencie duly weigh euen that , which he hath cited himselfe in the best manner out ●f the aforesaide Treatise , and hee will iudge it to be but p●oude and foolish stuffe , and meere Chimericall conceits , ●owsoeuer they carry a shew of religious reformation : for that some of them are inconuenient , and all without his sphere . But to leaue these his foolish vanities , let vs see what hee sayth in the behalfe of his booke of Succession . First in excuse thereof he sayth , that it came forth , with the consent of Cardinall Allen , and his liking and approbation : which we assure our selues to be a malicious calumniation of the worthy Cardinall deceased . For is it like that hee , who so mightily disliked the Oration made by a young scholler in Valledolid , wherein the title and right of England , was offered vp into the Kings hands , together with themselues , and theyr parents , is it like ( I say ) that he would approue this seditious booke , wherein all right to the Crowne of our country , is cast vppon the Infanta of Spaine ? Who in the world will belieue this ? But it is a fashion with father Parsons , to father his sedicious practises , and foolish actions , vppon other worthy men , & commonly such as are dead , as you may see by the multitude of dead mens Letters , cited in the Apologie . Howsoeuer he would draw the Cardinall into this work , wee knowe that his affection in his latter dayes , was not so great towards him , as to concurre with him in any such fond intentions . Adde to this , that Fa : Parsons hauing written this treatise , and shewing the same to two reuerend priests , when it was but in papers , one after another , both of them disliking , and disswading him from the publishing thereof , hee promised that it should not be printed . But you will easily think , that if he had obtained the Cardinalls approbation , he would little haue regarded their opinions , or promised to haue suppressed it , as he did : but would quickly haue satisfied them with his good liking , and applause . And where he saith that some of our selues at the first shewed liking thereof : howsoeuer some one or other not seeing into the drift of it , might ignorantly like the discourse : sure I am that none of iudgement , looking into it seriously , euer liked it . And I am sure that both my sel●● , and diuers others of more experience vtterly disliked , and condemned it from the beginning , as diuers know . But 〈◊〉 : Parsons wise and graue iudgement , esteemeth our heads greene : and therefore he saith , we carpe at that we vnderstand not . Indeede it is to walke in a maze , and a labyrinth of cares , to follow his turbulent braines , in all his sedicious intentions . And yet by his leaue , this was but a proud speech of his : for all the world knoweth , that some , if not the most part of those , who disliked this his heraldrie , were in learning his maisters , and in knowledge of the state of our Country , ( what was conuenient , or inconuenient , pleasing , or displeasing , pacifiding , or irritating , ) better informed then himselfe , as being men , who liued vnder the burden of affliction , and were not fled the field , as hee was , neither were their wits so weake , as not able to see Fa : Parsons cunning ayme therein . Though like a Gipsey he play at fast and loose : yet men , that are acquainted with his olde tricks , can gesse at his new fetches . But whereas he saith , that as times stood when the booke was written , it was necessarie to handle that matter of succession to the crowne : and that the first book is of such waight , that it is an irreligious point for any Cath : to be ignorant therein , concerning the matter of preferring a Cath : Prince ; for the which , no good Cath : can dispense with himselfe , vpon any humaine respect , or consideration whatsoeuer . These his assertions are so headlong , fond , and desperate , as I know not well , how to deale with him . As the times then stoode , you say . Meane you Sir , as the times then stoode in Spaine , or in England ? If you were throughly pressed , to name vnto vs a fit time for xx . yeeres past at least , when wee might conueniently haue dealt heere with the point of Succession , I beleeue it would pose you . Such are our lawes in that behalfe , as silence in such matters had beene much more fit for you , that liue abroad ; and lesse dangerous to vs , who are subiect to some stormes at home . You must therefore needes haue relation to the times , as they ranne in Spaine . And so wee haue descryed the traytour . After the repulse 1588. this good Fa : hastneth into Spaine : and finding no likelyhoode , that the King would againe attempt the like course against this Realme : he thought it was time to intitle him to the Crowne , if so be hee might set a new edge to his former desire thereof . If I misse of your meaning , you may expound your selfe heereafter . Next : you commend vnto vs exceedingly , the first book of your treatise , like a very wise and a modest man. But when I perused it , me thought , I was reading all the while your Maister in that art Buchanan the Scot his booke , de iure Regni apud Scotos : vnto whom you are very much beholden . If any will take the paines to reade them both ; let him condemne me for a seducer , if I haue abused him heerein . Their full scope is : how they may set vp the people against their Soueraignes . Well , well , good Fa : when people are thrust into such courses , they are not easily stayd : and you are but a simple man for all your statizing , if you know not , that popularity in the ciuill state , doth not well disgest a Monarchie in the ecclesiasticall . You tell vs further , that it is an irreligious thing for any to be ignorant , who shall succeede her Maiestie : and therefore you ( forsooth ) thought it time to teach them . But the time was , when such trayterous courses were vtterly forbidden , & that in Spaine it selfe , by the fift Counsell at Tolet , vnder paine of excommunication . But I know your shift : you will tell vs : that there was no feare then in Spaine , but that whosoeuer should succeede , hee would be a Catholicke : which is not so with vs now in England . And if not so with vs , how then Father ? It is true I confesse , that there is no competitor vnto the Crowne of England , that is Catholicke , in whom any probabilitie in the world of enioying the crowne can be imagined , as all men know . But what then ? Are Catholickes bound without all humane respect , to dispose themselues for such a Competitor as must be a Catholicke ? Againe , if Catholicks would so dispose themselues , what probabilitie is there , that they could direct , or make such a King , beeing the weakest and the deiectest number in our country , and are besides deuided in themselues , through the Iesuits honest practises , as euery man seeth ? And as touching the Infanta of Spaine , neither is shee a Competitor , more thē euery gentleman in England , that can any way deriue himselfe from any noble house , that hath any way matched in the blood royall , ( as the most auncient Gentlemens houses in England haue done . ) Neither is there any probabilitie of her Obtayning the Scepter , vnlesse we be willing to become slaues to Spaniards , and aliens : as this vnnaturall English Iesuit would haue vs. Now in this case , as all things stand with vs in England , I thinke there is no man of iudgement , that is not Iesuited , and so Hispanized , but vvill say that wee are not bound to oppose our selues for a Catholicke Prince . I might adde some other reasons to this purpose : as that we may not doe euill that good may come of it . The common rule of iustice requireth , that euery man should enioy that , which by right and inheritance belongeth vnto him . In auncienter times , obedient and dutifull Christians , liuing vnder Tyrants , prayed not onely for them , but for theyr chyldren , that they might succeede theyr fathers in the Empire , though they , theyr sayd children ( for ought the Christians knew ) were like to proue no better then theyr Fathers . Wee are to commit the cause to God , in whose hands the harts of Princes are , and who doth make , and pull downe Kings at his will , praying that whomsoeuer it shall please his diuine prouidence , to inuest with the Crowne and scepter of our Country , hee will vouchsafe to incline his hart vnto the Catholicke Romane religion and fauour of his Church . For where in mans reason , no possibility of things are , they are alwaies to be referred vnto Gods holy prouidence , and disposition , who worketh beyond mans expectation . Besides , the reasons which the Councell of Toledo yeeldeth , why it was forbidden to name a Successor to the crowne , as long as Chintillus the King liued , doe fight with Fa : Parsons tergiuersations . It was held an vnlawfull thing so to doe . But you shall haue theyr owne words ; Quia et religioni inimicum , et hominibus constat esse perniciosum , &c. Because it is both contrary to religion , and hurtfull for men , to thinke of future things vnlawfully , to search after the falls of Princes , & to prouide for themselues for aftertimes , seeing it is written : It belongeth not to you , to know the times , and moments , which the Father hath put in his owne power . Wee ordaine by this decree , that whosoeuer shall be found to haue sought after such thinges , and during the Princes life , to haue aymed at an other , for the future hope of the kingdome , or to haue drawne other vnto him for that purpose shall be cast out of the congregation of Catholicks by the sentence of excommunication . By these things you may see whether the peremptory proposition of fa : Parsons , be not in our case a flat paradoxe : but he neuer looketh to circumstances of time , persons , or place , so hee may by generall propositions seeme to make a faire shew of somewhat . But to come to the second part , or booke of Succession , he saith , and that with protestation , that he dealeth indifferently for all tytles , impeaching none , but shewing the true right of euery one , without partiality of fauour , more to one , then other . VVhich notwithstanding his protestations ( that are more frequent , then faithfull ) is most false , and vntrue . For first , what title is there , which he doth not invalidate one way or other , with bastardie , or the like , the Infanta her title onely excepted ? Doth he not bring the marriage of the Earle of Harford in question to debar that line ? Doth he not exclude the Scot , by the association , and so in the rest ? onely hee leaueth the Infanta sole heyre , without spot , or staine . Againe , hath he not raked vp a title for the Infanta , frō Iohn of Gaunt , and before ; neuer dreamed of in the world till his time , to bring in her as a Competitor . I am sure hee might bring in 300 at the least within our owne Country aswell , and with as good right and interest to the Crowne . Is this to deale faithfully , and indifferently ? But wee will leaue this poynt to be farther searched by such as I thinke haue taken a little more paines herein for his sake . Now to come to the pamphlet forsooth against the said booke of Succession , attributed to Ma. Charles Paget , but by Fa : Parsons not thought to be his , and ( I verily thinke ) iustly . But howsoeuer weake it may be in aunswering particulers , by Fa : Parsons layd downe in the conference about succession , ( which I think it intended not to prosecute ) yet doth it shew the worke to be inconuenient , as well for the King of Spaine himselfe , as for our owne Soueraigne , or the king of Scots . He that shall diligently peruse that treatise , & consider the drift of the Author , shall find it to be of a farther reach , then fa : Parsons will seeme to discerne ; as ayming at nothing , but to shew his folly , his desperate and trayterous courses , which by arming subiects against theyr Soueraignes , may touch in time all Christian Princes ▪ as well as her Maiestie . It is pitty that the Treatise is no more common , so as therby the States in England might cleerly perceiue , what a gallimaufrey he would make of lawes , cōmon , ciuill , & Ecclesiasticall , and of the whole Common-wealth , if Parsons might haue his will , according to the plot hee hath layd in that his worthy worke of Succession . An aunswer to the sixt chapter , touching our pretended folly , & deceiued spirit , in perswading our selues to get credit by the manner of our proceedings , with clamors and libels . IT is a common obseruation , and noted of all men , that when any person giueth himselfe to a custome of maintaining absurdities , hee will in the end grow to perswade himselfe , that the things he maintaineth are true , be they otherwise neuer so absurd and false ; yea and at the first so reputed by the maintainer . And euen so fareth it with Father Parsons , for certainly he could not possibly with any face deliuer matters as hee doth , and so apparantly false , with such confidence , yea and iterations , if the custome of wrangling , and maintaining paradoxes , had not perswaded his vnderstanding , that what hee will defend , must needes be as hee sayth , & so to be belieued as he telleth it . Tell me ( I beseech you ) who would so peremptorily haue affirmed , that we neuer meant to prosecute our appeale , but onely to gaine time . and libertie , ( as he here doth ) if such a custome of maintayning vntruthes , had not wholy possest his vnderstanding in such sort , as he cannot perswade himselfe otherwise , then his extrauagant imagination conceiteth ; and that a strong imagination did not assure him , that all hee said should be belieued ? The world now seeth the contrary to this loud vntruth . But to goe further with him . What man that regarded honestie , and truth , if he were not possest with the aforesaid humour , and custome , would say that one of our friends , sent before vnto the Nuncio , falling into the company of an Irish man , should say he was a Iesuit to win credit ? Ma. Barnbee was the precurser he aimeth at ; who protesteth that he neither was in the company of any such Irish man , neither euer vsed the name of the Iesuits . Againe , out of what other humour could hee auerre , that they shewed diuers pasports to the Nuncio , viz : one of banishment ; the other more large , generall , and ample , full of fauour , and priuiledge to passe , how , when , and where , and with what they would ; sith it is most certaine , they had but one onely pasport , and that of Banishment , this is the full truth therein . Some of the company beeing stayed at Douer , contrary to their expectation , they were enforced to send back to London : and therevpon procured a note to the searchers and officers there , that they should passe freely , without search , with such things as they had to carry with them . In the same sort doth hee deliuer you another vntruth , that all that our friends could say , when they came before the Nuncio in Flaunders , was that the Archpriest had taken away some mens faculties , & did not equally distribute almes . There can be no men amongst you so ignorant , as not to see this to be an egregious fiction . Was the matter of schisme , & all the wrongs therein done vs , whereupon all our stirres , and contentions haue risen , nothing ? Were all our complaints of medling in state matters , whereby the Prince and state were offended , and affliction increased , matters of no moment ? Who doth not see the vanity of this vntruth ? And vpon this followeth another as notorious ; that the Nuncio , hearing they could say no more , tooke vpon him to end the matter , writing backe to the Archpriest to require his aunswer ; but being afterwards better acquainted with our malicious bookes ( as he termeth them ) hee wrote againe into England in another style concerning theyr beeing with him , then hee would haue done ( as after he said ) if he had beene so farre priuie to theyr dooings , and meanings before . This is not onely an egregious abuse of his holines Nuncio , who most kindly entertained our friends , & beeing throughly acquainted with their busines , approued their course , as most reasonable , and writ vnto the Archpriest to restore all in pristinum statum , ( which hee contemned ) but also a meere deuise , in that neuer any such Letter appeared in England from the Nuncio , for ought we can learne , of different style to the former , nor can they produce any such . Besides that , the Nuncio wrote to his holines concerning our affaires . But Fa : Parsons must haue leaue to belye vs , when hee dare to belie and abuse his holines Nuncio . Like vnto this , and out of the same humour of custome , is his often malicious comparing vs to Luther , and sundry hereticks : which tasteth of a malitious , & vnconscionable spirite of defamation . I could say vnto him , that this humor of maintaining paradoxes and custome of lying , is , and alwaies hath beene , the first step vnto heresie . But God keepe him from the spirit of Machiauell and Atheisme , which these courses too much ●auour of . An other vntruth alledged by him in this chapter is , that we affirme , that his holines hath no authoritie to moue war for religion against any temporall Prince . This is a manifest lye ; for his temporall authority concerning this point , was not examined by vs , as I haue shewed aboue . After this , in the 77. page , follow three vntruths conioyned as in one , that we perswade all the world , that all is sedition , conspiracie , & rebellion amongst Catholicks in England , and not matter of religion ; that vvee make them the true Authors , and occasioners , of all theyr owne trouble , vexations , and dangers , by theyr owne indiscreet , and temerarious actions ; and that we also iustifie the cause of the Persecutors , and lay the fault vppon the persecuted . All these are so manifest forgeries , as impudencie it selfe , without a brazen visage , could not auerre it ; wee manifestly excusing the body of Priests , and Cath : and laying the fault onely vppon some particuler persons , where the true fault was indeed , thereby to shew the wrongs , and iniuries that generally Cath : and Priests haue sustayned without iust cause , onely excusing the Queene , and state by ignorance , not knowing the difference betweene the innocent , and guilty ; and not iustifying thei●●ard proceedings . For it is one thing to excuse a fault , and another thing to iustifie the same : yea , we doe say , that the extremity of affliction , exceeded in our opinions , the measure of the faults . But to denie occasions to haue beene giuen by Fa : Parsons , and his complices , and some other also , who wee wish had beene better aduised , we cannot , vnlesse we had , as shamelesse countenances , as perhaps he frameth to himselfe , when he denieth such apparant verities . And the same lye is iterated againe in the page following ; to wit , that we make sufferings in England , not to be for conscience , but for practising against the Prince and state . I doe greatly feare he wil proue in the end to haue Laesam imaginationem in these matters : framing to himselfe a conceite , that all the calumniations which hee can deuise against vs must be true , because hee so dreameth . Another vntruth is in the 79. page , that we haue sent to offer our selues to the King of Scots : which is onely spoke of malice , to bring vs into suspition and iealousie , with our own state at home , a thing he vehemently laboureth to doe , by all the meanes he can vse , as well by lyes and disgraces , as by his example of Constantius , alledged by him out of Eusebius and Sozomenus , you may perceaue : which testimonie in very truth doth more properly agree vnto himselfe , in that he hauing beene an open professed enemie vnto her Maiestie alwayes ; yet to purchase her fauour , and his credit with her againe , wrote a letter some few yeeres past vnto her Highnes , ( a fact of no small presumption ) offering her his seruice , and that he would giue her intelligence out of all parts of Europe , what was intended against her , and her estate . This Letter in his owne hand hath been shewed vnto some of our friends , who know his hand , as well as himselfe , that he may not say , it was counterfeited , which yet if hee doe , I think no man of wit or vnderstanding will thinke probable . For what aduantage should her Maiestie or the state get by counterfetting a Letter of Parsons , to such a vaine effect ? If you will say to disgrace him , I verily thinke , and assure my selfe , that her Maiestie , and the Counsell no more regard the poore fellowes credit , or discredit , then you regard your old shooes . And in reason doe but thinke , whether it is probable , that so mighty a Prince , and so great a state , should respect so meane a fellow . I verily thinke he is altogether forgot of them , but when as at some times his practises make him infamous to them , as the burning of Diana her temple , made the obscure Cripple to be talked of . By this you may see , how fitly Constans his example may be applied to himselfe , or to the conceite of her Maiestie , and the state . But as touching vs , his malice cannot reach to his scope : her Maiestie , and the State know well , that , as to them wee professe our selues most loyall , and faithfull in word , and action , so stand we most resolute in the profession of our faith , & loyaltie to God , and his Church : which God assisting vs , wee will continue . Another lying inuention of his owne , is , that we haue deuised a new discourse about Succession , and haue dealt another way in England , for the intitling of the Crowne , more to the tast ( as he sayeth ) of some great personages of our estate . This malicious falshoode he hath inuented newly , to bring vs into iealousie and suspition , and thereby hatred to his Maiestie of Scotland . See how this Robin good-fellowe playeth his part on all sides , to worke mischiefe , and contention . But hee shall neuer finde such shuffling dealing in vs , about matters that concerne vs not , as himselfe hath practised . First , he began with the Scottish title , affirming difference in Religion no sufficient cause of barre in right to a Kingdome ( as you may see in Greenecoate , or Leisters Common-wealth ) howsoeuer now hee inueigh against his Maiesties title , onely for Religion . Then hee practised with the Prince of Parma , to haue his sonne Ranutius marry to L. Arbella , thereby to fortifie his title , deriued from the house of Portugall . And lastly , he practised with the Spaniard , and hath intitled his daughter the Infanta . These haue beene his mutable iuglings , by which his Cath : Maiestie might see , how sure a staffe he hath of him , who hath runne through so many titles , euer shifting to the greatest , as occasions doe require . And I am perswaded , that hee will returne againe to his Maiestie of Scotland , or any other , if he see them likelyer once to winne the spurres , then the Spaniard . Now as he maketh no conscience to slaunder vs , thereby to worke our discredits to the vttermost of his power , so to fortifie his falshoods against vs , he doth arrogate vnto himselfe , and his , whatsoeuer good , and laudable action is done by any of vs , or our friends . As for example , the motion of a toleration , and mitigation of extremities in cause of Religion , knowne to be first effectually proposed by Ma : Bluet , and Ma : Clarkes meanes , and as well the petition , as instructions there-vpon , with informations of the manner of ease desired , drawne by them , and put into the hands of such of worth , discretion , and wit , as prosecuted the same : this ( I say ) he arrogateth to his fauorites , and friends , though I know that some of them did in many places inueigh against the ●ute , and auerted men , as much as in them lay , from harkning thereto , framing strange falshoods , and lyes about our intentions , and the action it selfe . And I am halfe perswaded , that if the Iesuits had not beene , the matter had found better successe : For it is well knowne , that they haue alwaies beene enemies to all toleracions in Religion ; because they think , that they should perhaps be expelled , or forced to retire themselues , vpon the conditions of security , to be giuen vnto the Queene , concerning her person , and state : which they perhaps are vnwilling to be drawne vnto , considering thereby all their plots , and practises should be cut of . Neyther happily wil the State trust them ( in whom it hath found such trecherie ) by reason of their mutuall bond , wherein they are all tyed to follow the direction of Fa : Parsons , the Archeplotter of state practises against our Prince , and Countrey . And to proue this part , concerning the Iesuits affection towards toleration . Fa : Parsons their ring-leader , and square to the rest , openly in Rome before the Scholers ( as diuers will testifie against him ) made a long speech against toleration of Religion in England , ( in that as he said ) Cath : thereby would grow cold , and lose their feruencie , they had got by persecution . See whether the motion of toleration , was like to proceede from these me● , and yet he insinuateth some motiue vnto her Maiestie , and the Counsell to deale with him , or his party ; because forsooth we being deuided , ( as he sayth ) haue little credite . By this also indirectly you may perceaue his minde to toleration in Religion , or any benefit to Cath : seeing he disgraceth to his power , such as deale for their good , when he knoweth that her Maiestie , and Counsell , will not trust him , or any of his faction , in whom they haue found so much sedition . But to proceede with the rest of this Chapter , Fa : Parsons would haue you in the beginning , wonder at our friends confidence in Cath : Countries , in that they durst not goe to the Nuncio in Flaunders , without a pasport . But he might more iustly haue told you , that our confidence in him , and his fellow Iesuits was such , that our friends durst not commit themselues into their hands . For if they had so done , they had all beene layed fast for euer comming at Rome ; the Iesuits had so earnestly practised with the Spanish Embassadour against them , affirming that they were enemies vnto the King , and I know not what . In so much that ( notwithstanding their pasport ) the Embassador came posting down about them , and Fa : Baldwine , Doct : Cesar , Clement , and others , ranne with open mouth against them to the Nuncio : whereby one of them ( as it is knowne ) had like to haue been taken by a policy , if he had been in his Inne . His horse was seised on , vntill the Nuncio sent for the Gouernour , and gaue him a checke . Consider then whether they had not cause , to feare the Iesuits , whose irreligious oppressions our former messengers had once tasted before . But more of this wil be sayd in another treatise . And as for their telling the Nuncio , that they were in feare to come vnto him : it was true , they said so , and gaue their reasons , not as fa : Parsons setteth them downe , but that we had beene oft prouoked by our Archpriest vnto him , and threatned with him by these words , that he , the Archpriest had beaten vs with roddes , but the Nuncio would beate vs with scorpions . These only were the reasons giuen to the Nuncio , which were most true . And for the breve , and his Commission , to end the matter , our Messengers vvere content , and did referre themselues vnto him . Whereupon he writ to the Archpriest , to appeare by himselfe , or Proctors , and the Doctor staied in Paris to meete them . But the Archp : refused ( as seemed ) for he neuer appeared one way , or other , vntill his two Agents , some monthes after , went ouer to be his Proctors in Rome , who passed indeed by the low countries , but what they did there wee know not . Onely it vvas said , that beeing before the Nuncio , they could not deliuer their tale , and that the Iesuits were ashamed of them . Insomuch that one of the Iesuits of that Country demaunded , if the Archpriest had no more sufficient men in England to send about his affaires . This was reported , whether it be true or no , I will not auerre . Touching the Breve , the Nuncio plainly told our brethren , that he had but a Copie thereof , and that the Archp : had the originall sent him long before , marueyling , as he said , that he had not published it : adding further vnto them , that they were not bound to take notice thereof , sith the Archpriest had not divulged it . And whereas Fa : Parsons saith , that our friends beeing at Doway , were exclaimed against by the Rector , & seniors there , it is a manifest vntruth . They found nothing but kindnes at their hands . For English men of worth abroade , I thinke fa : Parsons cannot name one , that exclaimed against theyr iourney . But I am sure , that all of reconing haue euer exclaimed against his vnconscionable practises , as well lay Gentlemen & Nobles , as of the Clergie : and he can name very few of esteeme of either sorts , which haue not complained against him . As touching his reports written concerning a toleration , vpon condition , the Iesuits and Archpriest should be recalled , I would it were true . And if hee had respect to the common cause , he would wish so to ; but they vse more to regard their priuate interest , then any publicke good . Concerning the matter of schisme , he writeth three vntruthes in three , or foure lines . First , that Lysters Libell was neuer published : secondly , that soone after it came forth , it was recalled by the Archpriest at the attonement . Heere are involued two falshoods : first , that the attonement was soone after the divulging of that Libell , there beeing a full yeere betwixt them : secondly , that then it was recalled , which is a lie , for hee promised onely , the matter should neuer be vrged , and that the Treatise should die , but he neuer performed eyther of those conditions . Thirdly , that it could not be said to infame any , which is an impudent assertion ; aboue 30. de facto being defamed by it , and so held , and practised against thereupon , besides an hundreth at the least of neuters , & fauourers , whom it concerned . But to leaue these apparant vntruthes , his best refuges , let vs come at length to Card : Sega his Catalogue or Memoriall , alleaged against the scholers of Rome . Fa : Parsons noteth the causes of those tumults in Rome , to haue been raised vppon the same causes , & against the same persons , that these heere in England haue beene , and therein we yeeld hee saith truly . And for the persons , to wit : the Iesuits , wee agree with him , that as they were the men impugned by them there , so are they also by vs heere . Touching the cause also , which he ascribeth to liberty , and freedome from subiection , as such liberty , and freedome excludeth tyranny , oppressions , & vniust insultations of the Iesuits , wee likewise graunt it : but as he maliciously cōmenteth vpon it , with hatred of order , discipline , and superioritie , we say , and will conuince him , that hee speaketh of malice , and against his knowledge . For hee cannot denie , but that the scholers in Rome , excepting iustly against theyr violent tyrannie , and oppressions , offered notwithstanding to admit of all the bonds , and rules , whereto any of themselues were bound by their order ( their vowes excepted ) and to tye themselues to the obseruance thereof , during their aboade in the Colledge . If then this were in hatred of order , & discipline , he must needes graunt , that there is no order , nor discipline obserued in his owne order . And if there be , let any man iudge , whether for voluntary Schollers to liue after the manner and order of religious men , be to contemne order & discipline . But this offer was reiected by the Iesuits , intending a farther slauery , and bondage ouer them , as in the history of those stirres shall appeare more at large . And for our selues heere in England , Parsons confesseth , that we were about a sodalitie with rules , and superiors . How doth it then follow , that we hated order , & discipline , who without constraint sought for both ? But whosoeuer giueth not consent to Iesuits inuentions , and fa : Parsons order , and discipline , must be termed a libertine , and disorderly companion ; though his inuentions containe plaine slauery , and tyrannie , as is manifest in the Archipresbyterie . Now touching the fragments which hee citeth out of Card : Sega his Memoriall , all of them beeing squared to his owne humour ; they giue great occasion to suspect that they were not his : for that hee is made to say , that the Iesuits haue more force , skill , and vse in managing of soules , then euerie other priest : and consequenly to remoue them out of the English Clergie , were as if one would let forth the best , & most digested blood out of a mans body , thinking thereby to cure , and preserue him . Is there any man of iudgement , or vnderstanding , that can thinke this speech could proceede from a Cardinall of grauitie , and iudgement , beeing so contrary to all practise of Gods Church ? Besides , it soundeth very ill , to preferre religious men ( onely dedicated to themselues ) in managing of soules abroade , before the seculer Clergie : whose proper function , is to giue themselues wholy to the direction & help of others , and to be prepared euen by their vocation ( & that of iustice ) to giue theyr liues for their flock , which no religious man ( as he is a religious man ) is bound vnto , more then of charitie at the most . And heereuppon it is , that some Diuines too probably defend , that to be a Pastor supposeth a state of perfection , aswell as to be a Bishop ; as the Sorbonists . Againe , this speech is to condemne the whole practise of Christes Church from the beginning , as to haue taken the worst , and weakest order for helping of soules . For she hath alwaies preferred the seculer Clergie to that office , and neuer suffered the religious to intermeddle therein , but vpon speciall priuiledges , and graunts , and by dispensation . Furthermore , the Church may stand without any particuler order of religious , or all of them : but she cannot stand without the seculer Clergy . How then is it true , or sound to say , that to remoue the Iesuits out of England , is to purge away the best , & most digested blood , a man would think that were the best , and most digested blood , by which the body were necessarily maintained , and without the which it could not liue , and not that , without which it might liue . And then must it follow , that the seculer Clergie is the best and most digested blood , by which the Church of Christ liueth , and without which it cannot liue , and not the religious , whom she may want . Iudge then whether this erroneous discourse were like to proceede from the Cardinall , or rather were not fained by Fa : Parsons himselfe . Another speech of the Cardinall is said to be , that the Iesuits , being vnited together , haue better notice of the vertue , talents , and merits of euery particuler Priest , that commeth into England , and consequently can better assure Cath : what is in them , and how farre they may relye vpon each one of them . This discourse tendeth onely to bring all into the Iesuits hands , & to minister occasion of infinite oppressions of such Priests , as they shall not affect ; as by many experiences of disgraces , done vnto Priests at their first entrance by the Iesuits , we haue found , as also in that great extraordinary priuiledges haue beene graunted to men of small talents , beeing their fauorites . How like is it then , that these were the Card : words ? Again afterwards he is brought in to say , that he that taketh away from that vnfortunate kingdome of England , the labour of this societie in these dayes , seemeth to me , not only to take away the salt of that Land ; but euen the sunne of that afflicted Church . Are these speeches like to proceede from a graue Cardinall ? I meruaile how oft Fa : Parsons hath heard religious men called , sal terrae , or lux mundi , seu ecclesiae , they being , by their institute , properly to liue in obscurity in Cells , and Monasteries , and not publique in the world . When Christ vsed these speeches , he spake vnto his Apostles , whom hee sent in to the world to preach , and instruct people , and to be conuersant with them , as well to edifie them , by example of life , as wholsome doctrine , and not vnto such as were to liue sequestred from the world , as religious men are , by their institute , and order . And if any way Fa : Parsons can writhe these Metaphors to appertaine vnto religious persons , it is as they are by particuler priuiledge , and dispensation sent into the world , and not as they are religious men , sequestred from the world . Iudge then how the Iesuits can iustly be said , to be the salt of England , or sunne of our Church , and not rather the Priests , vnto whom the function of preaching , and teaching belongeth of office , and not vnto the Iesuits . This application therefore of salterrae , and lux mundi vnto the Iesuits , doth not seeme to proceede from a Cardinall . Againe , it is affirmed that he sayeth , that it was neither conuenient , nor possible to remoue the Iesuits from the gouernment of the Colledges , without ouer-throwing of all . This is so notorious a paradoxe , as it seemeth incredible to proceede from the wisedom of a Cardinall . Were there no sufficient men in the world , to vndertake the gouernment of the Colledges , with preseruation of things , but that all must goe to ruine , if the Iesuits vpheld not all ? vvhat pride , what arrogancie is this ? Could the Seminaries of Doway , & Rhemes , be maintayned , & vpheld almost 40. yeeres without them , and must now all goe to ruine without their managing ? Are all our English men in the world abroad so insufficient , as that no one can be found able to take vppon him the gouernment of a poore Colledge ? I wish it would please Ma : Iesuits , to leaue the gouernment thereof a while ( which they say their Generall hath desired to doe ) and make triall , whether we could not finde men sufficient , for the managing of our Colledges , yea more sufficient then any Iesuit they haue , which neuer yet could maintayne that one poore Colledge of Rome foure yeeres together , without some tumult , or other : which in twenty yeeres happened not in the Colledge of Rhemes , gouerned by our owne seculer Priests , Doctor Allen , and Ma : Baily : But , for all their complaints , they finde too great a sweetnes , to forgoe the gouernment of the Romaine Colledge . Neither doth the Counsell of dismissing some with these termes of wanton , or lasciuious Colts , seeme to proceede from the Cardinall ; especially if we consider , that the chiefest of such , as were to be dismissed , whom he termeth wanton Colts , were 〈◊〉 be addressed for our Country , as they were . How vnfitting such men were for such an excellent vocation , the world may ●udge , and thinke , whether in conscience they could giue them faculties , yea , and some of them particuler fauours also for our Country . This conuinceth that either there was no such speech vttered by the Cardinall , or else vttered without true ground vpon partiality to the Iesuits . Vnto whom it seemed he leaned too too much , in that hauing another ( one M Monsignior oro ) ioyned with him , as Visitor in these stirres , and finding him inclined to equity , and no whit partiall to the Iesuits ; he shaked him off , taking the matter wholy into his owne hands . Which might make vs to thinke , that he was some-what partiall in his memoriall deliuered vp ; but if he were so partiall as Fa : Parsons relateth , it was admirable , and most vniust , as we haue shewed . After this memoriall Fa : Parsons addeth two circumstances , which hee applyeth to the proceedings , as well of the Scholers in Rome , in those tumults , as to ours heere in England . First , hee saith , that whereas in those it was onely suspected , that the heretikes , & common enemie had their hands , as ayders , or abetters , to make these demaunds of remouing the Iesuits from England , and the Colledge ; now it is openlie knowne , and confessed , that they are indeede the chiefe dealers , and stirrers therein . This is a common practise with Iesuits , when any thing maketh against them , then to bring in the common enemie , as an actour with vs , thereby to grace themselues , as impugned by heretiques , and disgrace their opposers , as pertakers with the common enemie : but it is as ridiculous a shift , as common . For who of wisedome , or vnderstanding will thinke that the state of England cannot deliuer themselues of a handfull of Iesuits , without the concurrence of a few poore secular priests , or that they respect , or regard such simple helps . These buzzes are for fooles , and children , and not for men of iudgement and discretion , to regard . The second circumstance is , that as the students in Rome sought to procure some Princes Embassadours to fauour their cause , by making it matter of state ; so in like manner we should deale with the King of Fraunce , that he may back vs. But Fa : Parsons must vnderstand , that wee are not so simple , but that wee doe know it to be a matter of state . And that point is now most euident by the vniforme banding of the Iesuits , and Spaniards , in this our cause . The Spaniards doe openly professe themselues to be for the Iesuits , as in the behalfe of their owne interest , and to requite them , the Iesuit doth openly professe himselfe in Rome , to be for the Spaniard , engaging him in the cause . Whereby come all the demurres and delayes in that Court , where-with our brethren are there now perplexed , and driuen off from the deciding of our cause . What the strength of the Spaniard can worke against them , they shall be sure of . Our cause therefore concerneth not onely his Maiestie of Scotland , but also of Fraunce , and all other Princes adioyning . For if the Spaniard should preuaile against England , ( where-vnto all these indeauours of the Iesuits tend ; ) then is not onely his Maiestie of Scotland depriued of his possibility , but also the King of Fraunce , and other states indangered by his mightines , and neighbourhood . A thing which Princes will consider : say Fa : Parsons what he can to the contrary . An aunswer to the 7. chapter , concerning fiue other of our bookes , falsly termed by Fa : Parsons absurd , and slaunderous Libels . I Remember that this father Parsons , in the discouerie of Iohn Nichols , saith , that the fellow when he came to Rome , went onely to the Brothell-houses , Canalls , and base , and stinking corners of the Citty , where he might finde most lewdest , and filthiest stinkes , and not to any publique places , as Court , Churches , or the like , where he might see maiesty , order , reuerence , or deuotion , &c. And thus , or to the like effect he writeth of him , because of the venome , filth , and reprochfull slaunders which hee disgorged afterwards against that holy place . And euen so may it be said , that he himselfe , this good Father , in the suruey of all the bookes that haue beene writ by any of our friends , hath imployed his greatest paines to auoyde all substantiall , and sound matters , such indeede as conuinced the vnderstanding of the Reader , and to rake onely in by-corners , and matters of least moment , carping at sharpe , and cholericke speeches , deliuered in heate , running vpon some such particulers , as were writ vpon relation onely . Where if he find any circumstance failing ( as cōmonly in matters related at the second hand falleth out , though the substance thereof be neuer so true ) there hee fasteneth his hold , and maketh such clamors and outcries , as though the matters were meere inuentions , really , and totally falshoods , and neuer any such things had beene in rerum natura . And so doth he deale in the seauenth Chapter , as well concerning the booke entituled , The sparing Discouerie , as the rest . His first entrance vpon the sayd Discouerie , is with generall inuectiue ; and then he carpeth at the posie , or sentence : vidi calumnias , quae sub sole geruntur , which hee will retort vpon the writers . But if you consider the proceedings of the Iesuits , and their faction against vs , in the beginning of the erection of Ma : Blackwell to his dignity , with what reproches , indignities , and calumnious slaunders they abused vs ; you will say we had reason to vse that sentence in the discouerie of such dealings . It is an easie matter to dally in this sort . We could with more shew of reason catch at his sentence , prefixed to this libell of Manifestation , viz : theyr folly shall be manifest to all men : Which saying , how fitly it may be retorted vpon fa : Parsons , you wil perceaue , if you do but consider his actions , and intermedling in matters , as well vnpleasing as vnbefitting , and vnbeseeming him ; whereby hee hath not onely kindled a flame of sedition heere in our poore afflicted Church ; but also drawne a great burden vppon his owne necke , in opposing himselfe against our whole Clergie : which he needed not to haue done , as also perpetuall discredit thereby , and a note of a factious , tumultuous , seditious , headstrong man. All the world certainly that shall see the effects of this his turbulent spirit , as well in these our affaires , as in matters of continuall practises against our Prince , and country , must needes say , that his folly is exceeding great , & apparant , in giuing vs occasion of publishing such his idle fancies , furies , and vndiscreet attempts vnto the world , which by moderate , & indifferent dealing , hee might peraduenture haue auoyded . His second sentence is , of the vncleane spirit , which ( if wee consider his fore-said actions , and the great oppressions , wrongs , and vniust , and vncharitable iniuries , & vexations wrought thereby ) may not very vnfitly be applied to himselfe . For the deuill where he commeth , is alwaies busie , thrusting the party on to mischiefe , and the greater & more mischiefe a man doth , the more doe we suppose the deuill to be busie with him . Now hee that shall consider fa : Parsons continuall contentions from the beginning , with all men , euen of his owne order ( as hath beene shewed ) as also his mighty , and great attempts in matters of state , ( whereby hath risen great vexations of innocent Catholicks , ) his detestable diffamations , not onely of our poore scholers in Rome , but also of our whole nation in them : his setting of our quiet Cleargie together by the eares ( a worke proper to the deuill ) with infinite wrongs to particuler men , may tell me at leysure , whether the parable of the vncleane spirit , & seauen more returning , might not be retorted vpon himselfe . But we rather wish his reformation ▪ then any such oppressions of seauen spirits , as vncharitably he chargeth vs with . His speech of S. Hillary , proficit semper , &c. might also be returned to the manifesting of his owne follies daily more & more , in that notwithstanding the euidencie of our cause , proued by vs , and still by him reproued , he still opposeth him selfe : which in the end will prooue wilful indiscretion . Also his often commending of himselfe , and vrging of his owne good deedes , and benefits done to vs , argueth no great wisedome . Sure I am that many of vs , neither euer saw , or tasted of his great bounty : but many haue felt the smart of his exorbitant actions . But to passe ouer this trifling , induced thereunto by his example , in the progresse of his discourse , hee canuaseth an humble , and good religious peticion of Ma. Watsons , ( wherin hee desireth charitable remembrance of his poore sinfull soule ) in such sort , as he sheweth very little charity , or religion , rather scoffing at the speech with words of disdaine , as sinfull sudds , &c , then otherwise . And when hee commeth to his person , he bewrayeth no small enuie and gall , by describing him with such disdaine , & so falsly also , ( as all men that know him may see ) that it seemeth it grieued him , that hee vvas made a man , and within the number of reasonable creatures . Afterward , and conformable heereunto , doth he goe about to taxe his minde ( an higher enuy then the former ) with a vaine bragge , and proude assertion of the Iesuits in generall , as men of contrary life , spirit , iudgement , will , workes , and manners to him , by a sequell , as it were involuing suspicions ( as vsually the Iesuits doe ) of I know not what imaginations of disorderly life ; most falsly , and most vncharitably . But let fa : Parsons temper this kinde of suspicious , and vncharitable writing , or wee will promise him , we will open such matters of his holy bretheren , as shall make both him and them ashamed thereof . Yet are wee not willing to rippe vp the liues of any , knowing , that the infirmities of euery Christian , should rather be pittied , and relieued by prayer , then reioyced at , or reuealed , as the Iesuits vse to doe in what they can , by all that oppose theyr proceedings : discrediting the persons of those , whose cause they cannot infringe : which is a tricke rather of a Machiuilian , then a good Christian . This course wee haue hetherto auoyded ( as all men can witnes ) neuer entring into the particuler liues of any Iesuit , or fauourite of theirs : and wee wish not to be vrged vnto it against our wills , by such kinde of dealings , least happily fa : Parsons , and all his company , repent that they euer prouoked vs therevnto . After his vncharitable descriptions of his body & mind , he falleth to flat railing against him , calling him a lost ladde , the staine of his religion , and order , permitted by God , and vsed by the deuill , and the like vncharitable stuffe : with no lesse vncharitable surmises of his peace made with my L. of London , as though it had beene for some trechery , or other . All which calumniations discouer enuie , & malice without reason . For it is well knowne by such , as dealt for him , that his peace was made vpon honest conditions , and most lawfull , and that he stoode both nice and scrupulous about the admittance of the offer at the first ; which argueth , that it was neither sought by himselfe , nor accepted vpon any base , or vnlawfull conditions . Besides , it is well knowne , that since his comming in , and his peace made , hee hath done much good as well to diuers in particuler , yea and some of the Iesuits friends , who little deserued it at his hands ( if hee had respected persons , or sought to requite wrongs ) as also to the good of all the Catholicks in generall . And whereas father Parsons noteth out of Cominaeus , that in time of sedition the worst men grow fastest , who in a quiet state should not be respected , it seemeth to be a great touch of his owne credite , who ( as wee haue noted before ) neuer loued in his life to be out of factions , and garboyles , raysing and maintayning tumults in all places in the world amongst English Catholicks wheresoeuer hee came , and continuallie tempering in our English affayres , as well against our prince , state , and whole country , as our Clergie , & Colledges : both which he , and his haue tossed , and turmoiled from time to time with such seditious plots , practises , and garboyles , that it is a world to consider his busie working humor in these affaires . By which meanes chiefely , hee hath made himselfe famous , and infamous to the world . See how well father Parsons hath profited by his example out of Cominaeus . For Ma. Watson , all men know that he hath been in very great esteem amongst Catholicks abroade , before these troubles , & more then now he is , by reason of the Iesuits good words against him , calling him into suspicion , and iealousie of trechery , in respect of his supposed peace made with the state : which argueth , that he hath not so much growne by trouble , or factions ( as indeede Fa : Parsons hath done . ) After all this , to shew more his particuler malice against him , hee runneth backe vnto his first going beyond the seas , and his comming to Rhemes , whether comming ( as hee sayth ) a poore begging boy , he was taken in of charity , and his first allowance was , for a good time , pottage onely , and licking the dishes , which other men had emptied before , and afterwards was admitted to serue at the Table , and carry away dishes , and then to make beds , and such other offices : in which kinde hee serued one Ma : Boast a Priest , &c. All this he spitteth out against Ma. Watson , wherein you may note a particuler malice against the man ; as he shewed before in the Apologie against Ma. Doct. Bagshawe . For you must note , that those alwayes , that most stand in this Fathers way , on them he layeth loade ; as if all his powers were recollected to wreake his teene ( as the saying is ) or worke reuenge . But this kinde of fashion will sooner discouer his malice amongst wise men , then procure him credite in his raylings . For if he were innocent , and not indeede really toucht by Ma. Watson , where his sore lyeth ; what neede he to kick so fast ; reason and quiet reply would sooner haue shewed his innocencie ( if hee had beene innocent ) then this outragious scolding . Beleeue me if I were altogether ignorant in these affaires , I should suspect Fa. Parsons to be galld , and rubbed vpon the olde sore , by his intemperate inuectiues against him : for that he hath taken vpon him to discouer his actions , and practises , and so I thinke the like suspicion wil these immodest inuectiues breed in all wise mens heads . Consider whether fa : Parsons impatience , & passions , make him not to forget himselfe , and shew ouer-much folly ; but he that itcheth , must needes scratch . Now as concerning Ma. Watsons first going ouer beyond the Seas , in such meane estate ( as he reporteth ) it is nothing so . For being discended of good , and honest parentage , both by father and mother ; out of both which stocks hath descended worthy men , as the last Bishop of Lincolne , and two Abbots , one of the which was the Abbot of Blancheland , and one Lord Prior , out of his mothers lyne , it cannot be imagined , that he came of any base , or contemptible stocke , though indeede his parents , through some desastrous fortunes , were not in their latter yeeres in that aboundance in the world , as they had , and might haue beene , had not such chaunces , incident vnto men in this life befalne them , as might haue made the richest Monarches meane , and poore : which notwithstanding was such , as alwayes brought him vp in good sort . And for his going ouer , it was with such difficulties , and so often repulses hauing been nine times vpon the Seas for that purpose , that it might consume no small store of mony , and exhaust a well lined purse . Yet notwithstanding , all this his resolution was such , and Gods concurrence so effectuall , that at the length he arriued according to his desire at Rhemes , where he was louingly entertayned , when as by reason of the pouerty of that place , diuers others were reiected , and forced to retire to the Campe , or become Seruing-men else-where , and his entertaynment was equall with other mens children of better birth , friends , and parentage , then euer Fa : Parsons was , and not as a begger , or of charity , ( but as the admittance of euery one , that there was admitted , was opus charitatis ) nor in such meane : and base sort , as maliciously without reason , or truth , Fa : Parsons affirmeth ; but as a Scholer of the house with the same priuiledges , that other had , and so employed vnto his booke , wherein he profited , as all men see . Neither ( as we vnderstand ) was hee imployed in making of beds , as this Fa : insinuateth to his discredit , although such an office in a Colledge to a priest , as Ma : Boast was , and the other , but then a youth , was no disgrace , nor empeachment of credit , as all men know . But to the poynt , Ma : Pibush , now I hope a blessed saint , was the man that attended in that kinde vppon Ma. Boast , not Ma. Watson . Sed malicia , quò vades ? Thus you see how blinde Fa : Parsons enuie towards this man is , in obiecting things , as discredit , which if they had beene so , had not been any discredite at all , if not honour : but being not so , doth manifestly conuince him of an enuious disposition towards the man. If wee should now doe , as Fa : Parsons heere hath done , enter into the Genealogies of his fathers , and associates , we could emblazon * one for a black-smiths son , if so well ; b another , for a very poore , and meane mans child ; c a third , for a Tanners sonne ; d a fourth , for an Apothecarie his Prentice ; e the fifth , for a poore boy , sent ouer by a priest , one of our friends ; f another , for a Taylours sonne , & heire , and in that yet som-what . And how many more might wee reckon of as meanestate , if birth should disparage their degree , and function ? but this is a conceit distasting the iudgement of any wise , or indifferent man : sith not birth , but merits , and vertuous qualities maketh priests . Neither doe we register these we haue done , as any touch to their dignities , and priesthood , but only to check Fa : Parsons exorbitancie , and discouer his folly in bewraying himselfe , and his best friends . After all these disgracefull speeches steeped in gall , he toucheth his lapse , with more enuie , then all the rest , taxing him therein of many vntruthes , as is knowne to such as were best acquainted with all circumstances thereof , and vnto whose refutation we will leaue all particulers , as also the falsifying of his letters , which yet as Fa : Parsons alledgeth them , tast of more true vertue , and humility , then he sheweth charity , in prosecuting the same . Hee hath forgotten belike how dastardly he fled himselfe in time of persecution , as Ma. Doct : Bagshawe noteth in his aunswer to the Apologie . Soone after this , he speaketh of his breaking of prison , which may worst of all be noted by him : sith it is a thing so familiar , and ordinarie with his pupills , both with greater scandall , and lesse cause , then euer was in his ; as may appeare both by Ma. Lysters departure out of the Marshalseas , ( his fellow prisoners hauing giuen their words for his true imprisonment to the Keeper , whereby they were left in no small danger ) as also Ma. Barrows , and Ma. Rowse , their apprehension caused by his escape . Such danger , and scandall , by breach of faith , and promise , neuer happened in the others escapes . And as for the death of Mistris Warde , for cooperating to Ma. Watsons escape , she might haue auoyded it , if she had not returned to the place from whence shee came with the boat after his departure , by which ouer-much zeale shee was apprehended , examined , and there-vpon executed . Her zeale of repairing to that place , to haue him prayed for , and to heare if he were safely departed , being more really the cause of her death , then the cooperation to his escape , which she had auoyded , if she had not repayred thither , whereof he also warned her before hand , and shee promised him she would not : neither knew he of her apprehension , vntill newes was brought him of her death , which greeued him sore , as being knowne to carry that stout , and gratefull minde , as hee would eyther by returne haue saued her life , with losse of his owne , or else haue offered himselfe to death with her . Now as concerning his gallantnes , with chaines , iewells , & I know not what , it will be a thing worth the noting particulerly , for father Parsons credite , and his followers , and fauorits . Thus then was the matter : There was a Pettyfogger of the Iesuits , a fawner on their fauours , and one that to his petty posse was a factour for them . This good fellow , a Goldsmith by his profession ( and som-what more ) fold a certaine Iewell to Ma. Watson , which hee prised vnto him at ten pound , which Iewell , when it came to be looked into by another Goldsmith , one Ma. Pareman in Tower streete , it proued worth not aboue eight shillings . This was the great Iewell that made Ma. Watson so gallant ; in which how honestly he was vsed by this petty-factor of the Iesuits , you may see , and not he alone , but others likewise : For he sold certaine rings vnto a Gentlewoman for gold , which in the wearing proued copper , and the best , but siluer , and guilt . Was not this a pillory matter ? and yet was this Fa : Gerards man of olde : against whom , as also against all the Iesuits , he was wont afterward to exclaime most bitterly , vntill that after three or foure cosening tricks plaid to Ma. Watson , and so many moe brothers of our friends , some whereof might depriue him both of eares , & life , ( were we so bloody , as perhaps others would be in this case ) he being discarded for a base consening companion from amongst vs , ranne to the Iesuits side againe , to raile against Ma. Watson , and others , as at Framhingham he did of late : and is not this a credite for the Iesuits , to haue so famous a disciple of their owne brood , to build vpon in detraction ? This ( I say ) was that great Iewell ; for other Iewels , vnlesse it might be a ring on his finger , hee neuer had such store , as this Father reporteth , which argueth the honestie of Fa : Parsons , in taxing him so vniustly with Chaines , Iewells , Rings , Bracelets , &c. and those got by importunitie , and shifts . How were such things gotten by importunity & shifts , which he neuer had , more then heere I haue noted ? which indeede was purchased by a shift , but such a shift , as Fa : Parsons would be loth to purchase another such of the like price . Hee sayth that he could recount diuers other particulers if hee had but halfe the desire to discredite him , as hee saith Ma. Watson hath malice to belie the Iesuits . But belieue him not ( good people ) for hee that would inuent lyes , as you see to discredit him : would sure neuer haue omitted truthes , if he had knowne any , that would haue impeached him , either in fame or credite . And wee know father Parsons not to be scrupulous in taxing mens fames , and credits , as you may see in his Apologie , and this his Manifestation , wherein no one of his aduersaries passeth without his blazon , eyther in generall or particuler , as well in the relation of matters in Wisbich and Rome , as also our late affaires heere in England . He that taketh father Parsons , or most of his pupils heere in England to be scrupulous in this point , is mightily deceaued . For it is , and hath been the best weapon they fight withall , maintaining theyr vniust , and vncharitable attempts , and practises against Innocents by diffamations , & disgraces cast vpon them , by calumnious speeches , and vntrue supicions . And that appeareth euen in the very next lines , where he affirmeth , that Ma. Bluet made Ma. Watsons peace with my L. of London , vpon condition that he should raile against the Iesuits , the Archpriest , and theyr friends , and to write , and print bookes by the Bishops direction . Which is a notorious vntruth , besides the malicious intention of bringing them both into obloquie amongst Catholicks for suspicions of trecheries , &c. no man better knoweth the falshood thereof thē my selfe , and the good hee hath doone to diuers Catholicks in distresse , since his peace made , doe conuince the contrary . I may not omit this Fathers blessing in the end and close of this vntrue , & vncharitable suspicion , which is thus : This was William Watsons holy vocation in the state , and dignitie of perdition , wherein now he standeth . A learned censure of a Iesuit , and father of all our English Iesuits . I maruaile how he durst thrust himselfe so peremptorily into Gods chaire . But of likelihood the man hath some gift of discerning of spirits , or els some other such superexcellent illumination , as Ma. Wiseman his friend speaketh of . Goe to , goe to , proude Iesuit : remēber who sayth , that it is not lawfull for thee to condemne thy brother in this sort . But now let vs see , what he saith to the booke of Sparing discouerie . First of all hee cauileth at a comparison made betwixt hipocriticall religious men , such as liue , in a religious habite , an irreligious life ; which is so true a comparison , as no man will , or can infringe it . Neither was the example , or cōparison brought in , as of all religious persons generally : but of such as inwardly , and in theyr actions , and life performe not , what outwardly they make shew of by their habit . From this cauill he proceedeth to the iustifying of Wisemans seditious pamphlet , written in disgrace of priests , with a pharisaicall extolling of the Iesuits , cōmending by the fained speech of an Angel , all Catholicks to the Iesuits direction , or to such , as are by them appoynted : ( for to that end , was it writ , howsoeuer he discourseth in generall termes of such , as liue vnder obedience ) because forsooth they are more free from error , more familiar with God , more particulerly illuminated , & more specially indued with the spirit of guiding soules . Which is both a seditious , a false , and erroneous speech , contrary to the practise of Gods Church frō the beginning ( as we haue shewed : ) which hath alwayes committed from time to time , the guiding of soules to the seculer Clergie , as both more fit , and more able , and not to the religious , but by speciall priuiledge , and as coadiutors onely therein , and not principall Agents ; and if at any time any religious person for his sanctity , & extraordinary discretion , haue beene called to take the charge of soules vpon him , he hath thereby beene made a member of the seculer Clergie , and exempted from his religious order , as happeneth in all Bishops taken out of Monasteries & religious orders . Whereby you see that a religious man ( as so ) is not so fit , nor adiudged by the Church to be more specially indued with the spirit of guiding soules , then the seculer Clergie . I will not say , that this hypocriticall vaunt smelled of Lucianisme . Neither doth S. Bernards words , rariùs cadunt , velociùs surgunt , securiùs ambulant , saepiùs irrorantur , proue that therefore they be more specially indued with the spirit of guiding soules . For then would it follow , that Paulus Simplex was more fit to haue beene a Bishop , then most Bishops in Saint Bernards time , because of his excellent vertues , aboue any Iesuit , that I know aliue . But such is the fondnes of father Parsons , when he will maintaine paradoxes . Touching the confident speech , vttered in the priests behalfe , of Gods sufficient direction in the execution of our function , it is no vaine , nor proude bragge , but an assured repose in the power of priesthood : which God in the execution thereof , by his holy spirit directeth to the effects intended according to the institution thereof ; which is so farre from Luciamsme , as it were heresie to denie the same . Neither doe wee say , as falsly Fa : Parsons affirmeth , that by the character of priesthood , we are made free from sinning , or erring , nor is there any assurance arrogated vnto our persons , by that speech ( as to the Iesuits by the former , ) but onely vnto the power , and authoritie of our priest-hood , which hath the greatest assurance in the world . It is also false that he saith , we iest at familiaritie with God , frequent meditation . &c. but reproue that vanity in such fond Priscillianists , as will arrogate vnto themselues such priuiledges , and prerogatiues , of illuminations , familiarities , ( and I know not what ) to the contempt of the seculer Clergy , as Tertullian did after hee fell to be a Montanist , vsing the very same text of Scripture against the Catholicks and Clergy then , which father Parsons now vseth against vs , and to the same effect ; to wit , animalis homo non percipit quae sunt spiritus dei : calling the catholicke Clergy carnall men , because they reproued such fond illustrations , and illuminations , in theyr two Prophetesses , Priscilla , and Maximilla , whom father Parsons doth herein resemble . After this , in the 87 and 88 page , he reciteth a taxation of the Iesuits in the aforesaid Sparing discouerie : for theyr politicall deuises , and Machiauilian rules , as also for theyr slaundering the iustice of our Country . For the first poynt , theyr deuises politicall , & Machiauillian practises , ( whether out of generall rule of theyr order , common to all , which I belieue not , or out of particuler prescripts , to some of thē by themselues , onely for better compassing of theyr designements ) they are sufficiently demonstrated , by theyr actions , true effects of such deuises , and manifest proofes thereof , both in this reply , as also in all other discourses written of late . Wherin you may see , with what slights , cunnings , and policies , they first practised in Wisbich , then in Rome amongst the scholers , and lastly , in these late affaires heere , for the erecting and maintaining of an Archpriest by deceit , and force amongst vs. Concerning the second poynt , it is not affirmed generally of all the proceedings of our state , ( which we goe not about to defend , as euen in the Important considerations you may see ) but of some euident facts , both notorious & manifest , which they haue gone about to deny , and colour , accusing both the Queene and state therein most falsly . As both in Fa : Southwells supplication , you may partly see , and also in other bookes writ by them , & by theyr continuall rumors buzzed abroad , both in other countries , and here in our owne also at home , as all men know . Which slaunders beeing in things apparant , and by open confession acknowledged , ( as that of the Duke of Norfolke , Parry , Throgmorton , Babbington , and his complices , Heskot , Squire , and the like ) haue done much harme , and auerted the state very much from Catholicks . And another thing , which followeth in the same page , of the Iesuits ordinary practise in equiuocating , when they haue beene examined ; is so manifest , and notorious , as in very deede almost euery ordinary officer vnder her Maiestie , hauing been acquainted with examining of them , are so vvell acquainted therewith , as ordinarily they will vrge thē therewith ; yea and commonly say , that they know not when to giue credite to theyr aunswers , making all the exceptions of such equiuocating they can : and this poynt they best know , that haue come vnder theyr fingers , and haue beene vrged therewith by them . But I haue already said something of this poynt , concerning theyr common practise heerein , by the testimonie of a reuerend priest , conuersing vvith one of them . In the next page he denieth that Cardinall Borromaeus put them out of his Seminaries in Milan , which is a thing so euident , as the Bishop of Cassana ( if he were aliue ) would iustifie the same ; and there be others yet aliue , that know the same also to be true . In the same page also he sayeth , we scoffe at spirituall exercises , which is most false ( as you may see , if you reade ouer the pages by him cited ) for onely , their practises in such spirituall exercises , ( whereby they make gaine , and tye men I know not with what vowes vnto themselues ) are vtterly disliked ; not the thing it selfe , if it be well performed , and sincerely , for the profit of the soule exercised , and not to other reprouable respects , as we know they haue vsed them . And wee see such as they haue once had vnder theyr hands , in those exercises heere in England , especially women , became so reformed thereby , as they grow to proud and peremptory humours , taking vppon them as Prophetesses , and Doctresses to censure Priests , and exclaime against them in open assemblies , a vertuous effect of a spirituall exercise . And of these I could name two notorious to all men in this kinde ; the one a maried Gentlewoman , the other , a mayde . In the next page 89. Fa : Parsons waxeth cholerick in his owne behalfe , ( being toucht indeede to the quicke , ) with words , of fierie darts , hellish hatred , serpentine tongues , mad , and possessed men , &c. which he so fiercely thundreth out , as if he were Iupiter Altitonans himselfe : and yet he sayth , that in all our writings you shall finde no one poynt of moment , alleadged by vs against him . If this be so , I would faine know of him , why he is so cholerick ? And why he taketh the matter so heauily to the hart . If the matters concerne him not , what skilleth it what rage or anger is shewed against him ? For if the matters be of no moment , they will discouer themselues , and then Ma : Parsons may rest patient , and not so much distemper himselfe with such outrages . A little more heate would verily haue driuen him into a burning feauer : Certes his passions shew he was prickt , and for triall thereof , whether the matters obiected in our wrytings against him , be of no moment , I referre you to the euidences of facts , and proofes cleerely set downe , both in this reply , and the former bookes themselues . If happily you will retort the choler of some of our wryters in like manner , to proue them guilty ; you must know that the case is altred : For heere Fa. Parsons sheweth his choler in his owne particuler defence : which is both vnseemely , and a note of touch ; but our friends , if happily hote words haue passed them , which wee wish had not done : it is not in their own personall quarrell , but in a common cause of the whole Clergie , and to be maintayned by all , in regard of the whole , and not of any particuler . And therefore no such retorture can iustly be made , vnlesse by the same reason you will condemne S. Hillary , wryting against Constans , in the common cause of Gods Church , with many bitter inuectiues , and S. Hierome against Vigilantius , in the like manner . But hee which shewed so much choler in his owne defence , shewed little lesse pride in the lynes following : where hee compareth himselfe with Christ , by the words onely appropriated to him by Simeon : to wit , that he was to be in signū , cui contradicetur : Also he draweth in Atheists , Heretikes , Apostataes , seditious , contentious , tumultuous , desastrous , and dissolute , to be inueighers against him ; as though he were the only innocent , and pillar of truth , against whom all such people did inueigh ; and that all those who did contradict him , were Atheists , Heretikes , Apostataes , seditious , or the like : A proud , arrogant , and contemptuous speech . For it is well knowne , that the best of fame , and reckoning of our nation , both beyond the Seas , and here at home , haue , and doe contradict his courses , witnes the Bishop of Cassana , Doct. Gyfford , Doct. Pearse , Doct. Turner , Doct. Barret , and infinite more of the Clergy , with Cardinall Allen himselfe ( as we haue shewed ) & all our Nobility , & gentry generally beyond the Seas , onely 2. or 3. excepted of their fauourites . All these by this Fa : sequell , must be eyther Atheists , Heretikes , Apostataes , seditious , contentious , tumultuous , desastrous , or dissolute . Touching our Latine book to his Holines : if there be nothing in it , but calumnies against him , I hope he will prosecute the same now in Rome , whilst our Agents are there , and make his aduantage thereof ; which yet wee heare not , that he hath , or can doe . Concerning Fa : Parsons illegitimation , I haue oft wished it had not beene vrged , be it as it will be , being not much to the purpose . But sith it hath beene vrged , and that hee denieth it : I will but aske him , why he was expelled Bailioll Colledge in Oxford , and whether the chiefest matter obiected , was not periurie , in taking the oath of the house to the statutes , amongst the which this was one , Volumus , vt omnes huius Collegij alumni sint legitimo thoro nati ; which was vrged against him , and offered to be proued openly . For the auoyding of which publique infamie , he made his owne resignation , writing it with his own hand , as is yet to be seene . This is more , then I meant to haue sayd in this matter , being a personall touch ; had not Fa : Parsons ouer-much vrged the obiection , not onely as an vntruth , but also inuented , and framed by vs. Heereby you may see , that the matter was not coyned by any of vs , nor so voyd of verity , as he affirmeth . You may reade more concerning his expulsion out of Oxford , in Ma. Doct : Bagshawe his aunswer for himselfe to the Apologie . In the 91. page concerning the matter of Squire , whereby the Doctor , and others were brought into danger of their lyues , hee sayeth for Squire , that it was a meere fiction , & neuer any such matter : which ( he telleth vs ) is already proued , and appeared so to be , by the fellowes death : And that Doctor Bagshawe was neuer in danger about it , but in speciall fauour with the state ; testified by his friendly calling vp to London , and vsage in the Tower. In all this speech , there be almost as many vntruthes as words , if not moe . First , that he was in danger of his life : I remit my selfe to all mens testimonie , that were acquainted with his intreatie ; being 11. or 12. weekes close prisoner , and direct order giuen to the Earle of Essex for his racking . Reade more of this , in his aunswer to the Apologie . Secondly , his assertion , that Squires attempt is already proued to be a meere fiction , is an vntruth , for ought I know . Once I saw a little Pamphlet , to cleare Ma. Rich. Walpole , as actor , or plotter of such a matter : but that proueth not that the Doctor was not in danger ; neyther did I see in my vnderstanding any conuincing argument in the discourse to cleare Fa : Walpole thereof ; but that as vehement suspicions remayned , as were before . The chiefest reproofes consisted ( as I remember ) in two poynts ; the one , that he was named William Walpole , for Rich. Walpole ; which being no essentiall poynt , nor circumstance of importance in the accusation , in that a mans name may be mistaken , his person being well knowne , and especially in the Iesuits , who ordinarily are called Fa. Parsons , Fa. Creswell , Fa. Walpole , &c. without addition of the Christen name , doth conuince nothing at all . The other was about the poyson , which he affirmed , could not be made , by the opinion of all learned Physicians ; which I affirme to be a very meere toy , and false , referring my selfe for proofe hereof to any Physician of iudgement ; whether a confection of poyson may not be made so strong , as that it shall infect thorough a Gloue , or single garment , yea , or thorough the leather of a shooe , and yet be carried in some vessell , or thing for the purpose , in the palme of a mans hand , thorough which , it cannot worke . Doth not Aqua fortis eate into yron , & not into lead , brasse , or other mettals ? Hath not Quicksiluer the like strange effects in some things , and not in other ? Doe not in physicke diuers potions worke in diuers humours , not hurting the contrary ? Will not some venome , be contayned in one thing , and not in another ? Quicksiluer wil be caried safe in a quill , yet not in some other things . Why then may there not a confection be made , which will infect one way , though not another ? Besides , might not Squires poyson taynt her Maiesties saddle , and so her hand , and yet himselfe haue remayned safe many wayes . These things no Physician in the world of iudgement will denie . And then what proofe is this : that no such matter was , because no such poyson could be made ? If these be all the reproofes , ( & as yet I haue seene no other of waight ) how is Fa : Walpole freed by this , and the matter a meere fiction ? But for the vehement suspicions of the matter ; consider first Roules and Stanleys discouerie of it , a whole yeere after ( for the which they remaine in the Tower , and affirme as much still : ) then that Squier at his death confessed the plot , though he denied his intention to performe it ; so loud an vntruth it is , that at his death ( as Fa : Parsons saith ) it appeareth to be but an inuention . The fourth vntruth is Doctor Bagshawes speciall fauour at that time with the state ; being as I haue shewed , 11. or 12. weekes in close prison , order taken to carie him to the racke , and daily expectance of arraignement about it , if miraculously God had not opened the plot . The fift vntruth is , his friendly calling vp to London , the contrarie whereof , euen father Parsons friends , of the opposite part in Wisbich , can witnes . For when the Pursuiuant came , hee delt so rigorously with him , that hee would neither suffer him to goe into his Chamber , nor take his leaue of his fellow prisoners ; but carried him presently foorth into the Towne , neyther would suffer him to write , or send any priuate message into the Castle backe to any . Doth fa : Parsons call this kind sending for ? A sixth vntruth , is his friendly vsage in the Tower , whether he was not committed , but to the Gatehouse ( as all men can tell : ) where his entertainement was for 11. or 12. weekes , as I haue told you . And this last vntruth cōuinceth this booke of Manifestation , not to haue beene made by the vnited priests , ( vnder whose names it walketh , ) but by a forrainer , ( whose intelligence herein failed him ) for the priests in England could not be ignorant of his commitment to the Gate-house , & not to the Tower. But God would haue father Parsons discouer himselfe , though hee march vnder other mens colours . I pray thee ( gentle Reader ) tell me in sober sinceritie , were there not 6. vntruths well packt together in a small roome ? belike it was for the more easie cariage . But who now will belieue Fa : Parsons henceforward by his own rule , though he say truth , sith he heapeth vp so many vntruths together in fardels , without blushing . In the same page , and the next following , he laboureth to extricate himselfe of an obiection , concerning his offering to sweare to Iames Clarke in London , that he neuer meant to be Papist , but onely to goe to Padua to studie Phisicke . In which the cunningst shift hee hath , is to ridde the same by an equiuocation : because forsooth the word Papist is odious in England , and not a terme professed by vs. This is the clenliest and best shift he hath , as there you may see . VVhereby you may note , that hee had learned Logick before hee went ouer ; and knew the difference betwixt vniuocum & aequiuocum , which practise hee hath not lost since , for ought I see . After this hee braggeth of his good deedes , for feare they should be forgot ; & in the next paragraffe saith , it is a violent lie , that Cardinall Allens opinion was of him , that hee was of a violent nature : but for that reade Ma. Charles Pagets aunswer to the Apologie . In the next paragraffe he commeth to Stukleys matters cōcerning Ireland , which he layeth vppon Doctor Lewis , saying that he had no part therein : which he confirmeth by that he had beene then but two or three yeeres of the societie , and was not Priest . Of this we haue spoken in the fourth Chapter : but that he had beene but two or three yeeres of that societie , and was not priest , argueth not , that he was no dealer therein . For if he could be of that credit and respect , that he entred then into difference with Doctor Lewis , Archdeacon then of Cambray , and Referendary to Pope Gregory the 13. about some matters concerning that busines ( as here he confesseth ) I see not but that hee might in the same manner , be of like credite with his order to haue a hand therein also . And all men know Fa : Parsons was forward enough at his first going ouer , in such busie affaires ; and the greatnes of the Iesuits with Pope Gregory , might giue occasion & way enough thereto . In the next page 92. hee noteth Ma. Blackwells bewayling his comming into England ; and his rising in his order by practises , and vntruthes , of which he saith , and many more if wee can proue any one poynt , hee will say wee are honest men in the rest . Now then for our credits with fa : Parsons , for his rising by practises , or factious disposition , I will say no more , but what is iustifiable à parte rei , viz. that the most stirring , medling , practising heads amongst all of our English nation , ( to goe no farther ) haue alwaies come to credite & preheminencie amongst them . Witnes this per inductionem Fa : Parsons , whose factious disposition hath been euery where sufficiently displaied with proofes sufficient . VVitnes father Haywood , and his busie factious inclination at his comming into England , of which fa : Parsons can beare witnes , being at variance with him , and many other priests yet liuing in England , some of them hauing beene present at his Synodes , where he made himselfe President in the Popes name . VVitnes father Holt , of whose disposition you may read in Ma. Charles Pagets answer to the Apologie . Witnes fa : Creswell , as you may see in Doctor Elyes aunswer to the Apologie . Witnes father Garnet , the onely chiefe actor in all our stirres heere in England . I might adde Fa : Crighton the Scot , with the rest ; and father Holt ( if he were aliue ) would take my part . These then are pretty inducements to thinke father Parsons rose in his order by his factious disposition . But for the other point concerning Ma. Blackwell , let him be examined , vpon his oath , whether he came not vnto Ma. Bluet , then prisoner in the Marshalseas , vsing these or the like words ; VVhat meant Doctor Allen to send this man ouer , he will vndoe vs all . And being asked why : hee aunswered , that his expulsion out of Oxford was so infamous , that it would be obiected by the Protestants , to the disgrace of the cause . Let Ma. Blackwell ( I say ) be vrged with this , & I adiure him , as hee will aunswer it before Almighty God at the latter day , to say the truth : and then fa : Parsons shall see wee haue wonne our credits euen in both these points , besides an hundred more already prooued . As for his action in Paris , to get himselfe released thence , I haue heard men of credite report the same thing , and that Verstegen alias Rowland , was one of the three that came to enquire late for him . For his euasion that hee was not there subiect , I would aske Fa : Parsons , whether when a Iesuit maketh aboade in any prouince , hee be not subiect to the Prouinciall of that prouince ? for as then fa : Parsons was no Prouinciall , but a priuate Iesuit , though he had indeed the superiority of such , as came with him into England . Touching the story of Doctor Gyfford , and father Baldwine , before the Nuncio in Flaunders , read Ma. Charles Pagets aunswer to the Apologie , and you shall see the contrarie to this fellowes words from the Nuncio his owne mouth . In the 93 page . b. hee denieth the Bishop of Cassana to haue beene generall Visitor ouer them , because he had an other , viz. the Bishop of Mont Reall ioyned in Cōmission with him , which is but a cauill . For they were both Visitors generall , & therefore the Bishop of Cassana had authority ouer them , to visite and reforme them , if he would haue put it in practise against them : which hee would not doe to auoyde theyr clamors of partialitie against them , for that they held him theyr enemie , although he had many memorialls deliuered him vp against them , euen of diuers of their owne order , which he shewed to some priests yet liuing ; God forgiue him for his omission herein . Concerning the Letters writ against the said Bishop , cōtaining these words , vel Turca , vel mors , vel daemon eripiat eū á nobis : there be yet witnes thereof aliue , who saw him burne it with his owne hands , vsing these words , pereat memoria earum cum sonitu . For the poysoning of Sixtus quintus , Cardinall Allen , the Bishop of Cassana , and others : whether they were poysoned or not , God knoweth , and by whom . But for Sixtus quintus , it is notorious , that hauing beene sicke of a burning Feauer , and beeing newly recouered , he suddenly fell downe againe , ( and as was said ) with drinking of a cuppe of Greeke wine , he died within the space of sixe houres ( if I be not deceiued . ) The suspicion you see is great , of his poysoning ; and that the Iesuits should concurre hereto , the conceit may arise by their euill affection towards him ; in respect of his resolution to reduce them to the forme of other religious orders a little before his death . But that they did concurre to this fact , I will not for any thing accuse them , as beeing a matter I cannot certainly know , & therefore will leaue it to that day , in which all things shall be opened . Touching Cardinall Allen , the Physicians opening of him , and finding no certaine cause of his death , might make the suspicion : and a Letter written vnto the Cardinall out of the Low-countries not long before his death ( as they say ) intimating the danger of his life , might aggrauate the said suspicion . Concerning the Bishop of Cassana , and Maister Thomas Throckmorton , diuers report theyr deaths confidently to haue beene by poyson : and a man of worship ▪ & good reckoning then at Rome , protested to me vpon his conscience , that hee thought them to be poysoned . And the Physitian , after the death of the Bishop , being requested to open Ma. Thomas Throckmorton , vsed these wordes , á che proposito ? è la medesima febre : to what purpose ? it is the same feauer . And at the opening of the Bishop , hee beeing asked the cause of his death , said ; besogno dire , che é vna febre , wee must say , it is a Feauer . Which words , and the manner of theyr deaths , & the black stuffe which came from the Bishop , made all men suspect , and plainly affirme : that they were both poysoned . The like Doctor Hugo the Bishoppes nephew affirmed of himselfe : after that by the strength of nature hee had ouercome the dramme . Sir Griffen Markham had there a little physick prescribed him by the Phisitian Signior Marcello , which wrought with him so extreamely , that he had like to haue died of it , as himselfe I thinke will affirme : and sending for the Physitian , hee wondred at the effect of the physicke , saying ; that physicke which I prescribed , should not haue wrought thus : whereby you may gesse , whether there were not knauery in the Apothecary at the least . I will not , nor doe charge the Iesuits heerewith , but it is knowne that they affected none of these parties ; and I remember what one said once vnto one of them , My Maisters you haue very good lucke , for I see not any man take part against you heere , that liueth long after it . Touching father Haywoods sending to Calabria , which in the 94 page father Parsons denieth ; it is manifest that he was sent from Rome ( with great disgust , and discontentment ) towards Calabria , marry indeede I thinke it was but to the vtter parts of the kingdome of Naples : as his Letters in peticion for reformation , writ vnto his holines did shew . As concerning Cardinall Allens greeuing at the Oration made in Valledolid to the old King of Spaine : there is yet a reuerend priest in England , to auouch the same , who presented the Oration vnto him . To conclude this Chapter of scandalous Libells ( as Fa : Parsons termeth thē ) he falleth into a miserable bitter inuectiue , as though he had much choler yet vndisgested , in this sort , s●t : Wherefore to conclude , seeing that this whole Libell is nothing else , but a commixtion of monstrous lyes , absurd prophanities , malicious fictions , and consciencelesse calumnations , wee will follow them no farther , eyther in defence of the whole Societie , or Fa : Parsons in particuler , whose actions are so openly knowne , by apparant publike facts , to the generall good of our ●ountry , as these wretched , and miserable mens harts , that write so despightfully against them , may sooner breake with enuie and rancor , then any least discredite , come vnto them by these furious barkings , in the sight of wise and indifferent Readers . Thus he inueigheth on the one side , and claweth himselfe on the other . Doe you think he was in perfect charity all this while ? With himselfe it may be hee was , by his good words : but you will neuer thinke he was so with vs. And you would say so indeede , if I should recite , what followeth immediatly , being much more fiery , and bitter , then his former rayling outrage . But I will not aunswer him in that kinde : God send him more patience , and better charity . After his quicke , and scandalous dispatch of the former bookes , he commeth vnto the Dialogue , wherein he will ( as he sayth ) be the shorter , because he hath beene ouer-long in the former ; and I beleeue him , as well for the one as the other , for it is euident ( by what we haue already sayd ) that he hath beene ouer-long , hauing said little , or nothing to the purpose , abstracting from falshoods , by-matters , impugnations of open truths , and vncharitable inuectiues . And in this , he both is , & must be short ; vnlesse by longer discourse he would prolong his folly . For so moderatly , so charitably , and so patiently is it penned ; with such regard of verity , and truth in euery poynt , as for a man to contradict any thing therein said , were but to make the world to see , that he rather loued wrangling , and iangling , then manifestation of verities . All men of iudgement , and indifferencie , that euer read the booke , doe most highly commend it . And therefore Fa : Parsons extenuating the worke , ( thereby to giue a touch vnto the author : ) sheweth apparently vnto all the world , that passion , partiality , and emulation hath weakned , or cleane darkned his iudgement ; or else you must needes say , that onely Fa : Parsons is wise , and all men else are sots , and fooles , yea many of his owne faction commend the booke , both for moderation , charity , patience , and well composing thereof . But let vs see , I pray you , what he saith thereto : first , we will begin with his most ridiculous comparing of Ma. Watsons preface to this t●●atise ( in that he sheweth all men to be subiect to sinne , by the weakenes of mans nature , happening by the fall of Adam ) vnto the discourses , made ( as he sayth , for you are not bound to beleeue him heerein ) in King Edwards dayes , to allure olde priests to marry , by telling them , that concupiscence doth remaine after baptisme , and consequently all must haue wyues , or doe worse . See how learnedly the man bringeth in his matters : mans nature being weakned by the fall of Adam , is therefore subiect to sinne ; ergo concupiscence remaining after baptisme , Priests must needes marry . Will not euery child descrie Fa : Parsons simplicity ▪ or wilfull folly herein , especially in that he further sayth : that Ma. Watsons discourse , and induction , is the more fond of the two . Surely if it be a better argument to conclude , that priests must marrie , or doe worse , because concupiscence doth remaine after baptisme : then to dispute thus : mans nature is weakned by the fall of Adam : ergo the Iesuits may sinne . You giue a great blow to the Church , in maintayning an vnmarried Clergie . I am sorry to think that he should open his weakenes ●or follie so apparantly to the world , hauing been hetherto thought so wise a man. But what think you ( saith he ) to the booke it selfe , that hath said so little , and so wisely to the Epistle ? Beleeue me , he sayth neuer a word at all : but onely rayleth at Ma. Mushe , ( whom he supposeth to be the author ) for his ingratitude , taxing him with secret Apostasie , because he had forsooth a vow of their Society . And who is it , that hauing a vow of Religion , may not iustly be dispensed there-with , vpon diuers reasons , and freed from the performance thereof in couscience ? What reason then hath Fa : Parsons to taxe him with secret Apostasie , that might haue ( as I think he had ) a dispensation for it . For he was in Rome in Cardinall Allens time , and as it was said , about that matter . Besides , it is not Apostasie to leaue the Iesuits order , before the last vow , ( which few of them haue taken ) vpon iust , and reasonable causes . How then could it be Apostasie in Ma. Mushe , to leaue that vocation , into the which he neuer entred ? Hee saith , that the fiue chiefe poynts , of which we are cleared by this booke : to wit , Schisme : dealing with the Counsell : our appeale to Rome : hatred to the Iesuits : and dealing in matters of state : were neuer obiected against vs , by the Iesuits ; but that eyther wee accused our selues thereof , or else went about to purge our selues before we were accused . Verily it is more then strange , to see such apparant verities denied , by so graue a man , a religious person , and one whom so many admire for wit , and rare qualities . Why ? all the world will controle him in the deniall of these things , and himselfe , both in the Apologie , and this booke of Manifestation , shall be a witnes against himselfe . Doth he not often-times taxe vs , with dealing with the state , Ma. Bluet by name , Ma. Doct : Bagshawe , Ma. Watson , and others ? And doth he not say in the last Chap. 122. leafe , that we yeelded to goe farther with the state , in matters against Cath : doctrine , for fauour , and credite , or to make others odious , then in conscience we could ? Doth hee not also say , that Ma. Bluet dealt with the state , to make Ma : Watsons peace : vpon condition , that he should raile against the Iesuits ? How oft doth he inculcate our dealing with the state in treacherous sort ; aduising Cath : in the last Chapter , to beware of vs , and keepe themselues out of our reach , for feare we betray them ? What will not this man say , and vnsay for his aduantage ? But his vntruthes are so common , and frequent , that it is impossible for him almost , but to contradict himselfe sometimes : for ( as you know ) oportet mendacem esse memorem : hee that lyeth often , must haue an extraordinary memory . The reason is , because falshoods haue not the like foundations , that truthes & verities haue ; whose ground is so certaine , that the frame standeth sure , and strait ; but contrariwise vntruthes , being fained , haue no certaine foundation , and therefore the frames and buildings therevpon , are vncertaine , crooked , and apt to alterations . Againe , for our appeale to Rome , doth not himselfe also say , that it was but a cauill , and slight ▪ to winne time , and purchase liberty , and that it was reuersed by the Pope , and therefore not auailable ? Doth he not in euery Chap : both in the Apologie , and this booke , raile against vs for malice , enuie , and emulation against his Society in generall , and diuers particuler men thereof ? Were his wits on wool-gathering ( where there are no sheepe in the Country ) that he cannot rememeber the very chiefe scope of his writing all this while ? vvhich hath been nought else , but of our hate , malice , enuie , and emulation to the Iesuits for the most part ? Wherefore were all his discourses in the Apologie of so many examples brought in of Iohn of Gaunt , King Henry the eight , Queene Mary , &c. of hurt that came by the emulations against religious men ? To what purpose are all his inuectiues in this Libell against vs : if not in fauour of the Iesuits by vs impugned ? strange was his forgetfulnes , or admirable is his folly . Againe , doth he not taxe vs in the Manifestation , for dealing with the Scot , then with the French , and last of all , of a new plot in England , for the fauour of some great person , to frame or inuent a new succession to the Crowne ? And yet heere he saith , that the Iesuits neuer accused vs of these matters , but that we accused our selues , or went about to purge our selues thereof , before we were accused . Besides , these open proofes out of his owne writings against himselfe , I referre the matter to the Readers conscience : whether of his owne knowledge ( if he were not extraordinarily ignorant in these our affaires ) he could with any conscieuce affirme these things , not to haue beene commonly obiected against vs. And for the poynt of schisme , it is so notorious to all the world , that I cannot but blush in Fa : Parsons behalfe : to thinke that he hath the face to denie so open , so apparant , so generall , so publike a thing . Thus you see Fa : Parsons honesty , and this is all he sayeth of the Dialogue . The next matter this Fa : handleth , is Ma. A. C. his letter to his Cosen . In the discourse whereof , hee so vncharitably inueigheth , against the supposed author , that you would much wonder if you read it . It is but short , yet so couched with pricks , thornes , and sharpe needles of choler , so bitter , and so biting , that it is a world to see how hee straineth himselfe to bring the honest gentleman into obloquie . Hee maketh mee to remember a tale of a certaine poore Catholicke recusant now in prison , who hauing been a petty Musician , and a wilde fellow in his young yeeres , was for his pleasant conceits desired of diuers Iustices of peace in the country , especially at Christmas time , and much made of . It pleased God to touch the hart of this Musician , and hee became Catholicke , and withall staied , and reclaimed from his former madnes , and wilde behauiour . Soone after ( beeing knowne to be a Catholicke ) hee was apprehended , brought to Winchester gaile , & called before the Iustices . Being conuented before them , some of them began to rate him , and inueigh against him , exprobrating vnto him his former course of life , and mad , and lewd behauiour . Whereunto the poore Catholicke made this , or the like aunswer . It is a world ( saith he ) to see , how you now runne vppon mee for these things : when I was such a fellow , as you speake of , I was a welcome man to all your houses , much made on ; & who but I : now it hath pleased God to call me to better courses , you vpbraid mee with my old faults , which then you delighted in . And euen so , in some part it fareth with father Parsons , in his rayling against this Gentleman : seeking all the aduantages that he can in his young yeeres ; which happily might haue a tast of youths vanitie , yet neuer so vnseemly , that his honour , or reputation might iustly be called in question thereby , that euer I haue heard : & all men , that now know him , will witnes that he is both very staied , vertuous , & religious : & without exceptions , a man of very good cariage : notwithstanding Fa : Parsons vncharitable , and vnseemly speeches against him , beeing a gentleman of worthy discent . And therefore such base inuectiues , to wisemen , will seeme to proceede , not from any generous disposition ( which alwaies regardeth men of sort , according to theyr birth and education ) but from some dunghill of basenes it selfe , whose thoughts sauor but draffe , and swill . For the particulers which father Parsons vrgeth out of this Letter , I will passe them ouer , assuring my selfe , that , if the Gentleman he noteth were the author of that letter , hee will frame an aunswer to all , that heere is obiected , which ( God knowes ) is but little and weake , as men of iudgement vvill soone see . Onely I cannot let passe his vrging of the excommunication against him , because he defendeth the innocencie of the priests in the matter of schisme , which ( he saith ) was forbidden by the breve to be disputed of , vnder paine of excommunication . I wonder fa : Parsons could vrge this , & forget that all bookes in like sort , whereupon odium dissidiumue , &c. in these affaires might arise , were forbidden in the same Breve , and then by consequence ( if this Breve be of force , & generall ) Fa : Parsons hath incurred excōmunication by this his Libell , without all excuse ; because he taketh ( as you see ) notice of the Breve . But if hee view the Breve well , hee shall finde that Lay men are not included therein vnder any censure . Besides that , the Bull was frustrated euen by the Archpriest , and Iesuits themselues , as is sufficiently proued in the Answer to the Apologie . Againe , where Maister A. C. saith , that power was not giuen to S. Peter by Christ , to transferre gentem in gentem , it is both catholicke and true doctrine : and in vaine shall Father Parsons goe about to infringe it . For the rest , I leaue to the author himselfe , though there be nought else of importance against him . Of Fishers Memoriall sufficient hath beene said in the first chapter . But where hee affirmeth , that Doctor Gyfford hath been a flatterer of Cardinall Allen , in state practises , and shewed the same in sermons in Rhemes , and in his orations to the Duke of Guise , I doe verily thinke all these to be meere calumnies . For first , Cardinall Allen was in Rome , when the action of 88. was intended , and there concurred in what hee did concurre . The other , ( to wit , Doctor Gyfford , ) was then in Rhemes , where no concurrence in the world was , or could be giuen , ( being farre out of the way for concurrence either by aduise , or otherwise ) vnlesse it were in priuate consent of mind , which I think father Parsons was not of counsell with . And for his sermons , my selfe haue heard diuers of them , yet neuer did I in three yeeres space , heare him in his sermons deliuer any , eyther vndecent , or vndutifull word against her Maiestie or state , but onely lament the times , and exhort to labour for the conuersion thereof by preaching & praying . And touching his orations to the Duke of Guise , I heard one of them , and to my knowledge , there passed not a sentence in derogation to the state of England , or drawing to the hurt thereof . But I know the Doctor will sufficiently purge himselfe of all such vncharitable , and vniust accusations , which rather fauour of malice , to draw him into obloquie ( as himselfe is ) then of truth , honestie , verity , or charitie . Adde also vnto this , that if Doctor Gyfford had been a forward man in any state practises against our country , it is more then probable that he should haue been a dealer , either in the action of Frauncis Throckmorton , being his neere kinsman , or Babbingtons , by reason of Gilbert Gyfford , with whom he was very inward , and familiar ; yet father Parsons cannot accuse him in eyther : for the first , hee was in Rome a scholer when it was in hammering . For the second , the contrary appeared by his Letters writ to Gilbert Gyfford , whilst hee lay in Paris : which ( as I remember ) were found in Gylberts studie when hee was apprehended . Thus you see how improbable it is , that he should be such a forward man in state practises , as fa : Parsons without all proofe affirmeth , besides , his protestations in his late Letters , are to the contrary , and vtter dislike of such proceedings . An aunswer to the eyght Chapter , concerning his directions vnto Catholicks how to discerne the truth : & how to beare themselues in this time of contention . &c. WE will let passe in the first aduertisement his dangerous tearmes of necessity and ineuitabilitie , in these disgustfull accidents : vvhich in the first sence absolutely vnderstood , taste vnsauory , if not heretically ; to put absolute necessitie and ineuitabilitie in those actions which are subiect to mans will , reason , and free election , as all the reasonable actions of man are . In the second vnderstanding , taking the whole sentence together , it includeth a contradiction in ipsis terminis , in the very tearmes of the proposition . For to be necessary , and to be accidentall , are opposite in the very tearmes , in that , to be necessary , or of necessity , is to exclude chaunce ; and to be accidentall or by chaunce , is to take away necessity , because that which is by chaunce , may hap , or not hap , but that which is of necessitie , must needes be , and cannot be otherwise . As for example , where the sunne is , there must needes be light , because light is a necessary effect of the sunne ; neither can the sunne be without that effect : but that it shall raine at noone daies , is by chaunce , according to the disposition of the ayre , and multitude of vapors gathered together in it . So that the ayre being indifferently subiect to either disposition , viz. of much store of watry humour , or otherwise : it falleth out to be accidentall , whether it shall raine at noone dayes , or not raine . And euen so in the reasonable actions of man , beeing subiect to the will , a man may freely make his election at his pleasure , this way , or that way , without constraint , or necessity , whereby you see this proposition of fa : Parsons , as he hath deliuered it in tearmes , is eyther foolish , because contradictory in terminis , or dangerous , putting things vnder absolute necessity , & ineuitability , which are subiect to mans will , and free election , and therefore accidentall . But though his proposition be deliuered in dangerous , or ill termes , we will construe his meaning the best way , and as by the words of our * Sauiour , & the * Apostle alleadged , we think verily he meant ; to wit : that although they be accidentall , in the respect of mans free will , vpon which they depend ; yet are they necessarie , secundum quid for the probation , and true touch of those that are Christes , and so ineuitable , not absolutely , but secundum quid , supposing the inclinations of mens wills , and the courses taken in these affaires , vppon which scandalls must of necessity follow . And this we haue sayd to cleare Fa : Parsons dangerous assertion , that no man mistake the verity of the Cath : doctrine : which putteth no reasonable action of man , nor effects there-vpon following vnder necessitie , or ineuitability . For of the same nature are the cause , and the effect ; so that if the cause be necessary then the effect depending in esse , et fieri , vpon that cause , being a proper effect of the cause , is also necessarie , quia posita causa surgit effectus , sicut posito sole resultat lumen : so in like manner , if the cause be accidentall , the effect thereon depending , must needes be accidentall . As for the winde to be in the East , or West , is accidentall , because the being of the exhalations , which cause the winds , is a●●identall . The rest that followeth of the necessity , and vtility of scandals , &c. is oratio communis , or exordium commune ▪ and may , as it pleaseth the Orator , be applied this way , or that way , to this part , or that . But if any man of iudgement will ponder , and without partiality weigh , what hath beene done on eyther side , since these garboyles , and which part it is , that hath suffered the greatest wrongs , and oppressions of the other : hee will soone iudge , that the vtility of these scandalous afflictions , hath rather beene on our part , then the Iesuits ; wee hauing beene so narrowly sifted by them , as we haue been . Whereby a man may rather imagine by all probabilities , that the persons , whom God would haue tried , and proued to the vttermost , haue beene amongst vs ; against whom the Archpriest and Iesuits , raised such whirl-winds of slaunders , infamies , opprobries , contumelies , vexations , insultations , clamours , out-cries , penuries , and what else might be deuised ; that on their parts there was enough done against vs , to haue shak●n men of most constant resolutions . Was not the most hatefull note of schisme , and rebellion against Gods Church , most vniustly , most falsly , and most opprobriously cast vppon vs by the Iesuits , and Archpriest ? Were we not by that slaunder reiected of Cath : driuen from the Altar , forbidden the Sacraments , esteemed as out-casts from Gods Church ? Was not a seditious Libell with most vncharitable inuectiues , of sinne , schisme , Idolaters , Sorcerers , publicans , ethnicks , rebells , seditious , factious , and the like opprobrious , and contumelious names , framed against vs by a Iesuit , and allowed , approued , and published against vs by the Iesuits , and Archpriest ? Were not our necessary friends forbid to entertaine vs , releeue , or help vs , and threatned for the performance of any charitable office towards vs ? Were they not had in obloquy , & note , that resorted vnto vs , & threatned to be excommunicated , that spake in our behalfes ? Were not good Cath : told , that it was a mortall sinne to send such of vs releefe , as lay in prison ? Were not all Cath : generally taught by them , that they might not in conscience communicate with vs , eyther at Masse , or in other Sacraments ? Were we not tax●d of espiall for the state , trecherie , and villanie against our brethren , and open betraying of Cath : when wee were most ready to shed our bloods in their behalfe ? Were wee not made almost odious to Cath : by these infamies , and opprobrious slaunders , layd vpon vs by the Iesuits , and Archpriest ? Were not the basest of their vassalls , and some of them , such as proued murderers , and theeues afterwards , yea , and then had been no better , maintayned to raile , blaspheme , and inueigh against vs , as reprobates , and out-casts amongst men ? Were not diuers hired , and well feed to make faction against vs ? Were not such as liued in prison , & knowne to be moderate , and indifferent neglected in diuident , and almes , that should be giuen to prisoners , because they would not raile against vs ? Were not generally all men accounted honest , and sound Cath : that could open theyr mouthes to raile at vs , and reuile vs , were they otherwise neuer so bad , or notorious in their behauiours ? Of which sort I could name diuers , besides the two first alleadged ; but that I will not discouer them , to impeach theyr credites 〈◊〉 the world . And on the contrary part , were not all that held with vs , called into suspicions , and iealousies therefore ? Will not all wise , and indifferent men ( iustly considering , and pondering these wrongs ) thinke that God permitted these things , rather to try , and manifest the vertues , and constancies , of some on our parts , ( who endured these afflictions ; ) then on the Iesuits part , who vniustly inflicted the same ? doubtlesse they will. And now I would haue Fa : Parsons to shew the like wrongs , oppressions , and iniuries done to them by any of vs. Were they euer accounted Schismatikes , Ethnicks , or Idolaters by vs ? Were they euer brought into extreame wants , and miseries , by our meanes ? Did we euer teach , that Cath : might not releeue them as priests ? Did we euer hire , or maintaine murderers or theeues , to raile against them ? neuer in our lyues . How when were they tried , and made manifest , as vertuous , or constant men in these troubles ? If he say , because they held with the Archpriest , and subordination got by their cunning meanes , and against all law , conscience , and reason , thrust violently vpon vs against our wills ; therein they shew how much wrong they haue done vs ; which doth rather manifest them , to haue beene the causers of all this mischiefe and scandall , then in any thing display their vertue , or constancie . If they vrge cholerick words , vttered in some of our bretherens writings , they haue payed vs home for the same , both in words , and action also . If they vrge matters layd to their charge , concerning state practises , and theyr proceedings in these affaires against vs , wee maintaine them still , not as wrongs done , but as most true , & are ready to iustifie the same , as by this reply you may see . But as for the wrongs ( aboue specified ) which they did against vs , all the world seeth them to be vniust ; wee beeing ( as now is euident ) most cleere from note of schisme , sinne , disobedience , rebellion , &c. whereupon all those iniuries arose . Thus you may perceiue how well this exordium commune , of ( vtility ) doth agree with our part ; and how little reason there is , to apply the same vnto the Iesuits , Archpriests , and their followers . But let vs consider how hee applieth the fame to himselfe , and his associates ; the first application is , that many as well abroad of other Nations , as of our owne , and also in England , seeing this scandalous fact of diuision , set in our Church , haue meruailously shewed theyr compassion , loue , and zeale in behalfe of vnion . An application , which is so generall , as may be applied to eyther part , according to the humour of the Reader , which side hee will iudge factious , and breaker of vnion , and by reasons aboue alleaged , will seeme more to note the Iesuits , by whose action of intruding vpon vs an Archpriest against our wills , and all law , iustice , and equity , this breach of vnity arose . The second application is , that those that liued onely to themselues before , by this occasion haue stirred vp themselues to knit , and ioyne with others of the same zeale , to resist the enemies malice heerein . This also is a common assertion to be applied to either part ; neither hath he named one quiet , or indifferent man beyond the Seas , that liued to himselfe , who hath beene stirred vp by this occasion , to ioyne with him , and his adherents heerein : onely the Iesuits and Spaniards prosecute this matter against vs , and their faction . But now for our part : what quiet men haue beene stirred vp to meddle , I will shew you . First , Doctor Ely hath in our behalfe written a treatise against the Apologie ; whom , all the world know to haue beene a quiet indifferent man. Secondly , Doctor Parkinson ( as by his letters , cited in The aunswer to the Apologie , you may see ) hath shewed himselfe for vs. And thirdly , all men almost of worth , as well of the Clergie , as Laïty , that liue abroad beyond the Seas , haue pittied our oppressions , as it is well knowne . The second effect , by Fa : Parsons noted , is : that mens harts , and inward cogitations heereby are made manifest , which otherwise might haue lurked vntill better ability , and thereby haue wrought more mischiefe , which now bursting forth , will be seene , and auoyded , &c. This effect , being also as generall , as the other , and admitting any application ; so fitly agreeth with Fa : Parsons , and the Iesuits , as all the world could not haue found out an office more agreeable for the purpose . For may not ( I beseech you ) by this scandalous breache , and the occasions and circumstances concurring , euery man of wisedome see what the plottings of the Iesuits haue beene , and their secret workings vnder-hand , as well for the ouerthrow , and subuersion of our Country , by inuasions , practises , and treacherous deuises , as also the subiection of our Clergie , to an vnheard of slauerie : which if by occasion of these stirres , and fallings out , they had not beene made manifest , might haue lurked , and lien secret , and vnknowne , vntill their plots , and practises had beene ripe , and their ability , ioyned with the Spanish forces , able to haue wrought the ouerthrow of both : which I hope by the prouidence of God , and concurrence of all good English subiects , as well Catholicks as others , will be auoyded : beeing , by these occasions made open , and manifest vnto them . As for Fa : Parsons vncharitable prophecie , that the chiefe and principall of our part , are like enough to goe farther , & become as Bell , and other Apostataes : wee hope in this hee will rather proue one of the false prophets of Ball , then any true prophet of God. But such presages , as these , tast not of the greatest Christian charitie , or modesty , which father Parsons might haue had . These are all the effects and applications of his necessity and vtility , which father Parsons maketh ; vvhich hovv generall they be in themselues , and hovv weakely by him applied , or whether by this our returning them vpon himselfe , and his , they carry not more weight & reason by odds , I leaue the indifferent , and discreete Reader to iudge . After these effects , page 122. he beginneth to direct Catholicks how to beare themselues in this time of triall , as well in respect of the enemy , and persecutor , as the troublesome , as he termeth vs. And for the first , he giueth so good directions and aduertisements of humility , patience , longanimitie , obedience , and true spirit of Christian sufferance ; that if he , and his complices , and some few other had obserued the same from the beginning towards theyr soueraigne , and country : it had been ( doubtlesse ) farre better for all catholicks in England at this day , then now it is . But he can speake well , though he haue done neuer so vnhappily ( as in the fourth Chapter you may see ) and this is but a tricke of a polititian , to vse the best words , when he meaneth least good . And whereas hee taxeth vs in generall tearmes , to haue yeelded to goe farther with Protestants in matters against religion , and Catholicke doctrine then wee might , it is a meere calumnie , and for his life hee cannot name the least particularitie of this , but onely ( after the old manner ) spetteth out generall accusations , with out any particulers in the world , whereas we are able particulerly to charge him , and some other Iesuits , to haue gone farther in their practises against her Maiestie , then any Catholicke doctrine , conscience , or religion can warrant them : cōcerning the taking away of her life by secret murdering , and conspiracies ( see the fourth Chapter ) and I farther say , that Fa : Parsons practises , first with the Scot , then with the Spaniard ( and as they say , with the Duke of Parma also , but I am sure father Holt did ) for inuading his naturall country , & subiection thereof by fire and sword ( which must needs haue followed ) were and are vnnaturall , because against his natiue soile , and naturall Soueraigne : vncharitable , because the increasing of Catholicks affliction at home : and vnconscionable , because without that iust , & due respect of either , which in conscience , he ought to haue had . Now let the world see whether we deale in generalitie with fa : Parsons , as he dealeth with vs. VVee will omit his inuectiues against vs , as men in a frenz●e , and possessed with violent , and raging spirits , and his warning to Catholicks ▪ to keepe themselues from comming vvithin our fingers , or reach ( as though wee were traytors , & would betray them : ) which sheweth his small charity , not to adde malice . VVee will also passe ouer his long and tedious discourse of the spirits of men , & trying of spirits : which word spirits , he hath so canuased thorow all this his Libell , as if hee had been some Zwingfieldian , or precise Anabaptist , indued extraordinarily with the spirit . But I will not omit his false & hereticall interpretation of the place of S. Iohn , Try the spirits , &c. thereby leading his Reader into a presumptuous error of iudging all , both men and matters , contrary to the true meaning of the Apostle : as you may perceiue by Gerson , & Ma. Gregory Martin vpon that place . In the close , and conclusion of this his discourse of discerning of spirits , he doth so set out himselfe , as if hee had no other marke , or ayme : for all men know him to be ( and as he might thereby be discerned ) of a most violent , and headlong spirit . And for the humility , obedience , pouerty , patience , and charity of the Iesuits , which hee noteth for effects and signes of the spirit of God , I refer it to the iudgement of such , as haue knowne theyr proceedings in these late affaires , with what insolencie , and violence , they haue prosecuted the matter of the Archpresbyterie , and schisme against vs ; theyr insatiable desire of rule , and gouernment ouer vs , first in Wisbich , then abroade ; theyr excesse in apparrell , expenses , horses , & attendants ; possessing indeede the whole collections almost of all that is giuen in pios vsus : theyr impatience in being cōtradicted , or controlled , rather mouing sedition in the whole afflicted Church of our country , then they would be crossed of theyr wills , or let fall theyr vniust designes ; theyr bitter inuectiue writing against vs , with the most opprobrious terms that could be deuised , before we euer put penne to paper , or gaue them any cholerick word . Whereby any wiseman may see , how fa : Parsons hath shaped the declaration of the spirit of Sathan ( which vncharitably he would impute vnto vs , and haue all Catholicks so to thinke of vs ) which by due , and indifferent consideration , might more fitly be applied vnto himselfe , & his associates , if I were so vncharitable , as to prosecute it , and did not rather pray , that Sathan may haue no power at all ouer him , or any of his order . Now are we come vnto the Quodlibets , the last booke , and that which he most inueigheth at , beeing indeede somewhat sharpe , and cholerickly written , according to the disposition as well of the matter , vrging choler , as to the naturall disposition of the writer , which being ( if a defect ) yet a defect in nature , is not to be so much condemned . But howsoeuer , fa : Parsons in this worke hath cried quittance ( as by the table of his words , and phrases in the end of this reply you may see : ) and therefore he may the better rest satisfied therein . In his discourse heereof , hee so ruffleth , as if it were a Pedante amongst his scholers , or that he had Ma. Watson on the hippe to crush him at his pleasure : whereas indeed he hath for the most part , either altered his words in reciting them , mistaken and misconstrued his meaning , or stretched the words and phrases farther then theyr proper sence by him intended . I will alledge you some examples . And first in the Epistle to the Quodlibets , page 8. Ma. Watson writeth thus : If that by way of quodlibet , or Thesis proposed , a man may without blasphemie , sinne , scandall , or any offence in the world , aske whether God or the deuil be to be honored : whether our sauiour Christ could sin , or no : whether our blessed Lady were an adulteresse , or common woman , or not : and withall , to bring arguments pro et contra , for auerring , or impugning the same : then to put foorth a question , whether a Seminary priest , or a Iesuit ought sooner to be credited , cannot iustly incurre any reprehension or blame . Which speech cannot be contradicted , all questions in scholes being lawfull to be proposed , and arguments brought on both sides , so that the conclusion be in the defence and approbation of truth , and verity . But marke how fa : Parsons citeth the said words . He setteth them forth in this sort : In this kinde of writing it is lawfull for him to dispute , whether God or the deuill be to be honored ? whether our blessed Lady were an adultresse , or common woman , or not . &c. and then mightily inueigheth against him , as of an audatious , and impudent spirited person , for proposing and putting in print such questions . O the honesty of father Parsons ! VVhereas Maister Watson by way of supposall , If a man may aske such questions without sinne , scandall , &c , then ( á fortiore ) is it lawfull to put the questions following : hee maketh him to say , that it is lawfull for him to dispute , whether God , or the deuill be to be honoured , &c. therby to turne the sence more odious , and euill sounding : which is but a very Iesuiticall tricke . For although , euen as Fa : Parsons saith , it be lawfull pro et contra , to dispute those questions , if iust occasion be offered , or in schooles for the exercise of learning , &c , yet as he hath altered the speech , you see the sence more vnpleasing then in the former . For he doth not propound them as questions , but onely saith , that if in the schooles such questions may be propounded . If he insist vppon the naming of such things in print , he doth but cauill . For who knoweth not , that many such questions are disputed by the Schoolemen in print ? Againe , where Ma. Watson maketh a discourse of the fall of all religious orders in former times from theyr first puritie , and feruencie , ( which discourse is most true , as we see before our eyes in the Benedictins , Dominicans , Franciscans , Augustines , and other orders , where they are not of late reformed , how farre they differ from the puritie , and pietie of their first institution , in theyr founders dayes ) this discourse fa : Parsons will haue to be distorted against all religious men , and theyr orders simply ; as affirming them to be all corrupted . Thirdly , where he preferreth seculer priests in England , before Iesuits , and other religious persons , as well in preferment of degree , worthines of person , and superioritie in place , as also in the state of perfection , hee saith it proceedeth of the spirit of pride , emulation , ignorance , temerity , and folly , and that the doctrine is against S. Tho. of Aquine , S. Chrisostome , and others , not quoting the places where . But I will say to Fa. Parsons , and stand vnto it , that for him , or any Iesuit to defend the contrary , is therein to shew their pride and ignorance . For in chalenging place aboue their betters , both in degree , and honour in Gods Church , is contrary to all custome , and law of the Church , as Ma : D●ct . Elye in his answer to the Apologie , hath shewed at large . Howsoeuer some men may make question betweene parochus in genere , and a religious person , and the states of both ( which the Sorbonists defined on the pastors behalfe : ) yet no man can doubt betwixt a religious state , and ours in England , where we are daily prepared to giue our liues for our flock , of which Christ himselfe sayth ; Maiorem charitatem nemo habet , vt ponat quis animam suam pro amicis suis . And therefore the state of Iesuits , or any other order whatsoeuer , is not to be compared with the state of our Priests in England : let Fa : Parsons infringe this proposition , if hee can . But to make the case more plaine , and euident , we will put this generall axiome , or ground , that no man may leaue a more perfect state , to goe vnto the lesse perfect , being in vow bound vnto the more perfect ; but any religious man may leaue their Monasteries , and domesticall discipline , yea , and in some cases are bound therto , for the health of their neighbours soule : as for example , if there be no other meanes probable of his recouerie : therefore to cooperate with Christ in the gaining of soules , is a more perfect state , then the profession of any particuler order of discipline , or religion . For to that end , a state is said to be more or lesse perfect , because it supposeth more or lesse perfection : but that state of life supposeth more perfection , which supposeth such inflaming charity , as to be ready to giue their lyues for their neighbours spirituall good , then that which onely seeketh his owne good : therefore the life of a Priest in England , which supposeth such a charity , and such a resolution , as to be ready to die for the good spirituall of his flocke ; is more perfect then a religious life , which onely attendeth to himselfe , and therefore supposeth no more , then obedience , obseruance of rules , and ordinary charity . Furthermore , religion is but the way or meanes to perfection , and therefore a man entreth into religion , because hee would become perfect : but that state wherein a man hath dedicated his life for his neighbours saluation , is not a way , or meanes to perfection , but supposeth the highest , and greatest perfection in this life : therefore the state of a secular priest in England , is more perfect then any religious state in the world . Yet doth it not follow , that euery priest is more perfect then a Iesuit , or other religious man : no more then it followeth , that euery Bishop , because of his state of perfection , is more perfect , then any priest , or euery Iesuit , then any Lay man ; because euery man liueth not according to the state he professeth . And thus much for Ma. Watsons propositions , in the grace & preferment of the state of priests in England . Fourthly , he citeth Ma. Watson , to say that their order is no religion , and the persons thereof neither secular nor religious . This is falsly auerred against Ma. Watson , for in diuers places of this book , he confesseth it to be an approued order : only heere he sayth , that as they now vse the matter , according to the manner of life amongst some of them , and their politick courses in the world , they are neyther religious nor secular , because they shew themselues to be , the one in name , and the other in practise . And euen in that place he doth commend their founders principles , which ( hee sayth ) many of them peruert and corrupt in practise : see the place , page , 61. Fiftly , hee alleadgeth places out of Ma. Watson , wishing some Iesuits to leaue the order ; which hee noteth in him , as counselling to Apostasie , which is most false : First , in that he doth not absolutly counsell it , but vpon supposition of bad courses ( that many good natures , and men otherwise of good parts are drawne into ) to auoid so great euils , which is charity . Secondly , to counsell to forsake the order of the Iesuits , is not to counsell to Apostasie , in that all Iesuits may freely leaue the order , before the last vow ( which few in respect of the multitude haue taken ; ) and such onely he counselleth to come out of their order ( as Ma. Iohn Gerard , &c. For otherwise Ma. Wright , Fa. Arden , Cardinall Montalt● his Theologo , Fa. 〈…〉 were Apostataes , which is malicious to affirme . Neither is the Iesuits order , as other orders are , and were in S. Bernards time ; from whence after their first vow , which is after a yeeres probation , they can neuer depart : and therefore S. Bernards words cited , serue him to no purpose at all . We will let passe his vncharitable and slaunderous suspicion , that a notorious Apostata or two , haue had their fingers in compiling the Quodlibets : for these calumnations you see , are as familiar with him , as his familiar spirit . Sixtly , hee noteth out of the Quodlibets , certaine inuectiues against their singularity of choise , in the admitting of such , as would enter into their Society : which soundeth as if Ma : Watson had inueighed against the spirit of discretion , & probation in such , as are admitted ; wherein hee peruerteth his sence , as all the precedent discourse sheweth . For indeede he onely inueigheth against their temporall , and politick respects in their admittance : which is too too frequent with them , if the party that would enter , be not eyther of great parentage and friends , much wealth , great qualities of learning , &c. or very practicall in the world , and of extraordinarie wit , he is not for them . But if he haue any of them , or be of any extraordinary expectance , they will not onely easily admit him , but earnestly seeke after him . This partiality and these respects doth Ma. Watson speake against , which in very deede are not tolerable in any religious order instituted , not for policie , but for perfection , and therefore ought to be open to all sorts , the meanest as soone as the greatest , the simplest as soone as the wisest . And for his marginall note , that diuers of that crew ( meaning the priests ) haue been refused , by Gods prouidence , and wisedome of the fathers , that foresaw their conditions . I will assure Fa : Parsons , for his better information heerein , that diuers of vs haue beene particulerly dealt with-all by the Iesuits , as well in their exercise , as otherwise , to haue drawne vs vnto their Society ; yea , and some of vs haue felt their auersions , because wee refused . How oft hath this complaint beene made against them in Rome , for solliciting the Scholers to become Iesuits ? Seauenthly , hee sayth , that Ma : Watson would haue new lawes made for the inflicting of greeuous punishments vpon such , as should send their children to the Seminaries , which is a notorious falshood . Onely he sayth that Fa. Parsons dealing with the S●udents , concerning the Infanta her tytle to the Crowne of England ( which is a matter of treason ) may , and is likely to giue occasion of more seuere proceedings , or stricter lawes concerning such , by reason that now he is head and director , and manager of all the Seminaries , and missions , reade the place page , 179. 180. Eightly , he bringeth in a marginall note of Ma. Watsons , against detraction , as a most dangerous sinne , which hee applieth against him , because of his cholericke inueighing against Fa : Parsons a little before , concerning a letter writ by him from Naples . Indeede I confesse that I wish he had not beene so hote : but yet this I say , that hauing seene the foresayd letter of Fa : Parsons , it is so wicked , so vncharitable , and so vile a letter , that no man liuing ( I thinke ) but would spet at it , if he should but heare it reade . You may see part of it , cited the 128 , page of the Quodlibets , and I assure you verbatim : for I haue reade the letter it selfe , which if you reade , you will excuse much Ma. Watsons choler . Ninthly , he sayth , that in the 134. and 135. page , Ma. Watson affirmeth the Iesuits doctrine to be erroneous , and hereticall , for that they teach the Popes ordinations to be obeyed . This vntruth is exceeding grosse , for there is no one such word in the places cited ( as you may reade ) nor any speech at all of the Popes ordinances ; onely hee calleth such doctrine , as to teach men to back-bite , slaunder , and detract those that are opposite to the Iesuits designes , ( as also sedicious medling with the affaires of Princes , teaching innouations , rebellions , inuasions , conspiracies , &c. ) erroneous , false , and hereticall doctrine , which no man dare to denie . Tenthly , hee maketh Ma. Watson to say in the page 150. that wee meane to abstract matters of succession for our Realme , from matters of religion ; and this also is a notorious falsification . For he onely sayth , that matters of gouernment , succession , & state affaires , are cleerely abstracted from poynts of faith , and religion : which is a position so true , as no man can infringe it . I will omit his foolish cauill at a desired quiet in a frownd on state , as ridiculous , wishing the Reader to peruse the place , and he shall finde it to be a most honest and a discreet speech I will also let passe his scoffing at Puny , and other speeches of Ma. Watsons , concerning the preferring of priests , before Iesuits , as they are onely religious persons , which beeing a very discreet , and true discourse in him , is foolishly gybed at by fa : Parsons , as if you read the whole discourses , 51. and 117. you shall see . What hee alledgeth onely by way of quotation , page 12 , 13 , 17 , 38 , 133 , 194 , 25 , concerning the discouery of many Gentlewomen , and noble personages , or sedition set betwixt the houses of Arundell , Howards , & Dacres , or the threatning of Catholicks : with new persecutions , or barking , byting , and leaping in the faces of the Iesuits ; is eyther false , & no such matter , or friuolous , and of no importance , tending to no such wickednesse as hee noteth . Read the places in the Quodlibets aboue cited , and then iudge . Eleuenthly , hee noteth the words of Ma. Watson , page 312 , that the King of Polonia is defeated of the kingdome of Swethland , onely by the Iesuits trecherous , ambitious , and tampering aspires ; whereas Ma. Watson onely sayth , that this defeating was occasioned by their ambitious , & tampering aspires . &c. which was a generall report ; viz. that theyr incroaching vppon the Swethlanders , beeing sent thether to preach , made them to driue them all out of theyr Country . Whereupon the King ( by theyr suggestions ) making warre against the Swethlanders to reduce them by the sword , they chose his vncle Duke Charles for theyr King , and so defeated him of his inheritance . If this relation be not true , ( as it was for certainty auerred to be true ) take it as a relation of newes only , & blame the first Author . Hee denieth also in the same paragraffe , that euer hee writ Letter to the Earle of Huntley in Scotland . But for that hee may aske Ma. Mush now in Rome . I verily thinke he can tell him something thereof . He also noteth for a forgerie in the same paragraffe , that Ma. Watson saith , hee sent a Iesuit to the Earle of Essex , for his taking a pension of the king of Spaine . Indeede I thinke Ma. Watson might mistake in naming him a Iesuit , but Roules and Stanley had commission from him , to deale with the said Earle in that behalfe , they are both in the Tower , about the practise of Squire , and haue confessed the same as I haue beene informed . In the same § . also hee noteth for a calumniation , that Ma. Middleton was cusened by him of 300. pound . If it be an vntruth , Ma. Middleton is too blame , from whom ( as I vnderstand ) the information came . Twelfthly , he bringeth in diuers things ▪ affirmed by Maister Watson , out of his Memorial , alias his High counsel of Reformation , most of which things by him cited , I haue heard reported by reuerend priests , that haue seene and read the worke , and one of them , vnto whom he shewed it within his twelue-months in Rome . Somewhat more particulerly we haue spoken of this before . After all these collections out of the Quodlibets , ( vvhich you see to be either false , or not of any moment , hee falleth into inuectiues , running againe to prophecies , and predictions , page 113. where he also affirmeth , and saith : it cannot be denied that Priests , and Iesuits , ioyning all together at the beginning of the Seminaries , both at Doway , Rhemes , and Rome , did set our cause first on foote , & haue promoted the same euer since , with conioyned labours , &c. Before in the fourth chapter , you haue heard fa : Parsons say , that no English Iesuit was in place , or credite , when some matters were in action against our Country , as that of Stukley , Doctor Saunders , and others , onely to excuse them in those practises : now heere hee saith , that the Iesuits ioyned theyr labours , with Doctor Allen , Doctor Saunders , Doctor Stapleton , Doctor Bristow , Doctor Webbe , and many others , at the beginning of the Seminaries , both at Doway , Rhemes , Rome , and other places , to set on foote our cause , I would aske him if they cōcurred with Doctor Saunders in promoting the cause of our Country : wherein was it , if not in the Irish affaires , sith hee dealt in no other for our coūtry ? Before in the fourth chapter hee denieth it stoutly , beeing pressed therewith , oportet mendacem , esse memorem , God will still haue him to bewray himselfe . Againe , if ( as in the fourth chapter hee sayd ) no English Iesuit was then in place , or credite , how did they then ioyne at the beginning of the Seminaries of these men , for our common cause ? I am sure no Iesuite entred the haruest of our Country for some yeeres after the missions of Priests , not vntill two yeeres after the erection of the Romaine Seminarie , which was some yeeres after the beginning of the Seminary at Doway . If hee say , that the Iesuits of other Nations ioyned theyr helpes in this action , then say I by the same assertion , that in ioyning with Doctor Saunders , they concurred to the Irish attempts , which was the onely affaire for our country ( or rather against our country ) in which hee dealt , and then I haue what I intended ; to wit , a proofe that the Iesuits haue dealt in all actions against our Country , almost from the beginning . After this hee entreth into a discourse about the erection of the Archpriest ▪ & the writing of the Treatise of schisme , neyther of which ( he sayth ) was a sufficient cause to make these garboyles in such a time and place . But to this I aunswer , that both beeing the most vniust actions that could be , the one in preiudice of the whole Clergy , intruding a superior , without suffiicient warrant to tyrannize ouer vs , as hee did , ( which is sufficiently shewed , almost in all our discourses ) the other in preiudice of our fames , and credits in the highest degree ( as is aboundantly proued , and dare not be maintained by any Iesuit , be he neuer so audacious ) how could we do lesse , then defend our rights , standing onely vpon iustice ? And iudge whether the offence were in vs of these scandals ( standing but in the defence of iustice , as now all men see ) or in them that most iniuriously against all law , conscience , charity , and equity , maintained the same against vs , ( as Ma. Doctor Ely proueth in his aunswer to the Apologie . In the end of this chapter , and of this booke , hee maketh his conclusion , with the same charity he began , and hath hetherto prosecuted the same , in comparing vs to Luther , and other hereticks ; and that all we haue done , hath beene vpon ambition , liberty of life , promises and obligation to my Lord of London : which he saith wee hold out in spe contra spem , against the remorse of our owne consciences . These are his charitable speeches , which in part we could retort , and more iustly vpon himselfe , but wee hartily pray almighty God to giue him more light of conscience , that he may see what an abhominable thing it is in the sight of GOD , to maintaine iniustice , and impiety , vnder the cloake and maske of religion , and piety : least otherwise hee pay summam mensuram delicti one day , for the manifold afflictions , and miseries hee hath brought vppon our afflicted church , and the infinite wrongs and iniuries , that he and his haue done against so many well deseruing men of our English Clergy . And thus I will end this reply , submitting both my selfe , and it , vnto the censure of Christes holy spouse the Catholicke Church , vnder whose banner I fight , protesting that if any thing herein contained , be in the least iote contrary , or dissonant to the Catholicke doctrine , ( as I verily hope there is not ) I will be ready hereafter to reforme it . DEO GRATIAS . A Table of the passionate , and vncharitable words and sentences , vsed by Fa : Parsons in his Libell of Manifestation , as well against our persons , as our actions and proceedings : with the Chapter and leafe noted , where you may see them . The preface is an inuectiue discourse vpon enuie , which he applieth in his booke vnto vs , with other reuiling speeches , as sal infatuatus , infatuated priests , fuch as haue lost not onely all sauour of priestly wisedom , & shining light of true vnderstanding , but also the true spirit of Christian priests , and priesthood : with an application also of the vncleane spirit departing from a man , and returning , entreth with seauen worse then himselfe , and infinite other inuectiue speeches , as proud , turbulent , irefull , impudent , &c. ¶ In the first Chapter . Fol. 1. Passionate writers , of distempered humors : our bookes seditious , full of iniquity , vanity , scurrility . fol. 2. Passion and perturbation of minde , folly , imprudencie , clamorous in writing with contempt . fol. 3. Men free of speech , and conuersation giuen to liberty . fol. 4. Contemners of all helps for the increase of spirit , vsed by vertuous men , that we be de larga manica , of scandalous conuersation : turbulent standing in defence of disorder , liberty , and dissolution : imputation of whoredome , drunkennes , dicing , pewter stolne , &c. all this against the priests in Wisbich . fol. 5. Extreame surfet of vnchristian malice , passion , leuitie , anger , high and odious malice , malice and stomacke , perturbation of minde . fol. 6. Shamelesse Libellers : open , & apparant malice . fol. 7. Petulancie . fol. 8. Exceeding madnes , impotent blindnes of passion , slaunderous tongue , malicious obiection . fol. 9. Want of good conscience , enuie her selfe , odious , and malicious stuffe , impudency , and folly : rayling , and reuiling without stop , or stay , eyther of shamefastnes , or conscience : men expressing the sinnes of drunken men , and cursers , or euill speakers , by their intemperancie of tongue , slaunderous and malicious , ignorance or malice . fol. 10. Giber● fitter for Ruffians and Souldiers , &c , intemperate tongues , passionate brethren . fol. 11. Folly , phrenzie , furious inuectiues , spite , highly enuying others gifts and graces , priuate mutiners , publique enemies , bidding warre , and defiance to all , &c. madnes . fol. 13. Iustifying the proceedings of heretikes , and persecutors , &c. excluding all spirituall authority , &c. defenders of paradoxes , & absurd positions , parasiticall adulation , pernitious , eroneous , and hereticall , wicked , and reproachfull : trayterous , ridiculous , impious , base , and wickedly minded , publike proctors of heretikes and persecutors ; open accusers against the persecuted Catholickes , sundred in wicked attempts , secular in order , degree , minde , harts , & desires . fol. 14. Transformed by passion of enuie and malice , sold their tongues to the common enemie , ridiculous and contemptible , rayling without modesty or measure , tyed to no law of truth , probability , proofe , or modesty . fol. 15. Libellers , by passion conspiring with heretikes , defenders of irreligious paradoxes , compared to Anabaptists , and Luther : confident in follies , pride , ignorance , folly , falshood . fol. 16. Base flattery of new fawning brethren , impious brauing against the Pope . fol. 17. Of Priests made Souldiers , fighting against theyr chiefe pastor ; anger , enuie , passion , giuing consent à posteriore , to spilling of blood , &c. accusers of their brethren , flattering and perfidious , champions that will fight euen with God himselfe , &c. perfidious to their owne people , Sycophants , possessed with one of the seauen wicked spirits . ¶ In the second Chapter . Fol. 18. Discontented and distempered brethren , of indiscretion & bad spirit , odious arguments , defence & patronage of disorder and liberty ; open rayling , and rebellion against superiours , errors in doctrine , extreame passion , lacke of iudgement , modesty , and moderation : contemptible , and odious : no reason , desire of truth , zeale of reformation , loue of vnion , spite , choler , enuie , malice , desire of reuenge , and other pernicious inductions , insufficiencie in wisedome , learning , and all other vertues . fol. 19. Fury of passion , and rage of reuenge , gall , choler , enuie , hate , folly , and lacke of discretion , venome , malice , gallings , and spightfull speech , simplicity , folly , want of wisdome , and more necessary vertues , folly , malice , contemptuous spirit . fol. 20. Outrageous iniuries , rebellious subiects , intemperance , angry , contumelious censure , high folly , and higher maleuolence , folly , frenzie , passionate people , troublesome , and dissolute , vnchristian censure , spirit of scoffing . fol. 21. Clamours , odious braules , disorders , contempt , scoffing at piety , scoffers , and scorners , foolish caueling and calumniation , against good things , malicious , interpretations , disdaine . fol. 22. Folly , passionate proceedings , folly , simplicity , blindnes of passion , folly , passion , simple , passionate . fol. 23. Wrangling , brethren , pickers of quarrells , cauill , calumniats . fol. 24. Cauillations to procure a worse breach , grosse folly , gone in blinde passion , egregious folly , highest folly , immodest scoffings , railing speeches . fol. 25. Pride , phrenzie , comparison to Luther , rancour , malice . fol. 26. Malice , scold , insolents , and intemperate raylings , notorious ingratitude , folly , bitter gauling , and venomous speeches , bitternes of raylings , spightfull , venomous slaunderings , soft and delicate nicenes in words , scandalous behauiour , disorders , discontented brethren . fol. 27. Passion , fury of passion , passion , blindnes , & obscurity of passion , passion . fol. 28. Ioyning with most bloody enemies impious . fol. 29. Malice , passion , folly , passionate spirits . ¶ In the third Chapter . Fol. 29. Angry men , passion , lauished out , and bidding battell , all in their wayes spirituall , sinne , pride , and presumption . fol. 30. Disordinate brethren , contumeliously , presumptuous , and haynous sin●e , infinite discredite , folly , no credite but with heretikes , great passion and folly , hate for religions sake , notorious inconsideration , hired by the common enemie , contumelious iniuries , intemperate tongue . fol. 31. More impudent , then heretikes intollerable spightfull insolency , barbarous ingratitude , inconsiderate and passionate people , pride , audatious , contemptuously . fol. 32. Contumely to the Pope , intemperate behauiour , make warre against the Popes highest authority , transported by the force of passion , intemperate speeches . fol. 33. Diuers false slaunders against Doct : Bagshawe , and Ma. Bluet , Ma : Champney , and Ma : Barnebee , desperate , petty Doctors , young Maisters . fol. 34. Younkers , malicious imputation , odiously , hatred and enuie , passion , malice , folly , bid warre to all good and learned men of our Nation , foolish assertion , absurd Libells , take vpon them the parts and persons of heretikes , raile , lye , diffame the actions and intentions of best Catholikes , slaunderous calumniation , contemptuously , most spightfully . fol. 35. Calumniation , raile extreamly , contentious words , enemies in hart , hatred , and faction to Cardinall Allen , follies , madnes , enmity , and principall hatred , intemperatly , passion of hatred , conspiring and coniuring factious attempts , and desires . fol. 36. Clamorous bookes , slaunders , scoffes , contumelious speeches , much malignity , shamefull , passionate brethren , raging and rauing , wonderfull extreame passion , with open mouth , and most violent spirit impugne true Martyres . fol. 37. Flattering the state , betraying their companions , like to make other men Martyrs by betraying them , false & malicious calumniation . fol. 38. Passion , hostility with Martyrs , troublesome and sedicious , proud and disobedients . fol. 39. Pride , folly , lacke of discretion , reproach , contempt , belyed the Seminaries to make them traytours that come from thence , passion , enraged by force of choler , and impotent appetite of reuenge . ¶ In the fourth Chapter . Fol. 39. Follies , improbabilities , open vntruthes , passionate brethren , bad or no conscience at all , custome of telling vntruthes , not reflecting vpon conscience or credite , falshood vttered with facility , notorious falshoods and vntruthes . fol. 40. Manifest and open vntruthes , slaunders , and calumniations , forsworne . fol. 41. Lyes , false calumniations , little conscience , poyson of malice , malignant fruites , cries , clamors , oathes . fol. 42. Malice exceeding the malice of heretikes , malignant proceeding , malignities , malignity exceeding malice . fol. 43. If they be brethren , if they be Priests , odious speech , malignant & false , calumniators . fol. 44. Sedicions , ioyning with enemies and heretikes , cynicall , or sycophanticall . fol. 45. Opprobrious and contumelious calumniations , sedicious people . fol. 46. Barbarous insolencie of slaunderous companions , contempt , hollow harts , oath , and consciencelesse protestation , spightfull and iniurious arraignment of Catholikes , perfidious , and vnchristian malice , lost lads , apparant false calumniations , lye notoriously against their conscience . fol. 47. Blinde rancor , wilfull malice , lacke of conscience , malignant passion , mad and furious inuectiue , spightfull , calumniations , ridiculous , malicious sycophancie . fol. 48. Foolish malicious people , calumniations , malignant enuie , malignity . fol. 49. Distracted passionate clamours of discontented people , calumniate , discompose , wrangle , trouble , cry , and curse , shamelesse calumniation , lyes . fol. 50. Poeticall fictions , false , slaunderous , malignant vntruthes , open calumniation , seditious writer , make-bate , manifest slaunder . fol. 51. Malicious fictions , lying detractions , malicious cauillation , absurd calumniation . fol. 52. Bold & ridiculous assertion , vnprofitable wrangling people . fol. 53. Contumely farre from wisedome , &c. extreame , audacity , absurd and ridiculous matters . fol. 54. Meere faction , audacity , little shame and conscience , wrath , raile , follies , open falsities , immodesty , passionate and inconsiderate brethren , folly , falshood . fol. 55. Fond rayling , without end or measure , exceeding folly and malice , conspiracie , seditious designments , folly , passion . ¶ In the fift Chapter . Fol. 56. Enuie , emulation , anger , passion , boysterously , furiously , passionate people , outragious dealing , enuie exceedingly , rancor , malice , enuie , rayling and calumniation , all their vertue , & humanity extinguished with enuie , greefe , and enuie . fol. 57. Falsity , falsly , calumniation , notoriously false , peeuish , and maligne calumniation , wrangling , and lying humor . fol. 58. Detractors , want of vertue , malicious enuying humor . fol. 59. Impugne the very name of reformation . fol. 61. Calumniators , calumniations , odiously , malicious . fol. 62. Spightfully doe maligne and cauill . fol. 63. Great passion , intemperate folly , malepert saucines , younglings , insolent dealing , indiscreete , rash greene heads , deuoued to carpe , maligne , cauilations , men of humor . fol. 64. Intemperatly exclaime , dispassionate , hereticall , Libell , contradicting company , counterfet Doctor , impupudent cauiller . fol. 65. Egregious foolery , wise Doctor , wise discouerer . fol. 66. Confederates of faction , reuolted Priests , hatred and enmity , eger discouerer , sedicions . fol. 67. Weakenes and folly , calumniation , malicious empeachings of others , malicious , malignant , flattering malignant discouerer . fol. 68. Flattering discouerer , mutinous partners maleuolous calumniator . ¶ In the sixt Chapter . Fol. 68. Folly and blindnes , deceaued spirits , passionate if not possessed , perturbation of enuie , emulation , malice , reuenge , anger , and like enchauntments , and sorceries of theyr soules , furies of spirituall madnes , rage and runne a desperate course of rayling , and rauing out-cries . fol. 69. Clamors , mutinous and sedicious people , out-cries , stomack , sobernes , notorious lye , flattery , false procupation , grosse and odious vntruthes . fol. 70. False detraction , sedicion , clamors , scandalous tumultuation , deceitfull speaking & dealing , malicious books , scandalous and sinfull action , folly , fury , shamelesse Libells , horrible scandall . fol. 71. Hired to make debate , and set diuision , spies , in way to be heretikes , rebellion , tumultuous , scandalous tumultuation of turbulent students , tumults , broyles , sedicion , tumultuous people . fol. 72. Tumultuous , tumultuous students , tumultuation , hatred of order , discipline , and superiority , tumultutous , tumultuous people , troublesome , tumultuous , tumultuous , tumultuous . fol. 74. Tumultuous , troublesome , enuie , emulation , malice . fol. 75. Troublesome , out-cries , Horses , Colts , fiercely wanton , tumultuous , turbulent crew , folly and indiscretion , clamors . fol. 76. Troublesome sedition , sedicious course , tumultuations , vnchristian deuice , odious to God and good men , maliciously , malicious , set sedition , tumultuous , presumptuously . fol. 77. Passion , venome of stomack , indiscretion , intemperance , lacke of conscience , modesty , shame , contumelious speeches , a most wicked and iniurious deuise , vnfortunate men , hired by the publike aduersary , capitall slaunder . fol. 78. Slaunderously , iniuriously , strife , contention , great and strange passion , intemperate spirit , reuenge , enuie , and precipitation , treason , traytors , contemptible . fol. 79. Betrayed , and iniuriously vexed by our own , small consideration , mutable , weake and passionate . fol , 80. Folly , bad and mad course . ¶ In the seauenth Chapter . Fol. 80. Transported brethren , exceeding the limits of modesty , anger , emulation , passionate motiues , no stay of conscience or religion , open breach to all licentious liberty of vnshamefull rayling , opprobrious , and contumelious scolding , breach of modesty , contempt infamy . fol , 81. Notorious lyes , manifest slaunders , false calumniations , scurrilous , immodest , neither modesty , shame , nor conscience , disgorging gall , wanton , malapert , & mad speeches , wicked Libell . fol. 82. Hideous and horrible detractions , slaunders , and infamations , sinfull dealing , sinfull burden , horrible sinnes , vnchristian calumniations , sinfull lad , sinfull suds , defectuous and sinfull , wrong shapen , blinking aspect , looking nine wayes at once , wanton imaginations , lasciuious phrases , sensuall and venerous apprehensions , contemplations , and desires . fol. 83. Sinfull and wretched poore fellow , lost lad , true staine of his religion and order , falsly and wickedly , vsed by the deuill , publique reproach of our profession , infamous books , factious , base and absurd instrument , base instrument , mutined brethren , rebellion , begging boy , contemptible & ridiculous thing . fol. 84. Liberty & sensuallity , dizzards , and absurdities . fol. 85. Bewraying ; and betraying Cath : simple ridiculous , no learning , voluntary conspiring with the common enemie , meere malice , enuie , pride . fol , 86. Miserable fellow , state of damnation , desperate case , licentious course , shifter , malice , disorderly life , notorious foolery , dignity of perdition , mutined and discontented priests , mutinie , dissension , no care of truth , raile , reuile , and reuell , as turbulent spirits , shamelesse , foo●ish , malicious , insolently , faction and rebellion , impudent lyes , absurd , wicked , impious speech . fol , 87 , Hereticall obiection , a most ridiculous companion , pride , as high presumption as any heretike can professe , few companions , impiety , Lucianisme , raylings , lyings . fol. 88. Proctors for persecutors , wicked , impious , Herodians , wicked deuises , bloody companions , odious dispute , impiety suggested by heretikes , ribauld speech , notorious lyes , shamelesse , contemptuous and scoffing spirit . fol. 89. Infidelity , prophane irreligiosity , lacke of spirit & sence in Gods affaires , outragious detraction , fiery darts of hellish hatred , serpentine tongues , mad and possessed men , raue and rage , sedicious , contentious , tumultuous , desastred , dissolute , malicious and enuious calumniation , passionate emulators , malicious slaunders , impudencie , lyes , and malicious inuentions , miserable men , enuie , setters on of heretikes , malice , wicked men , vnchristian and deuillish deuise , malicious people . fol. 90. Wicked companions , exorbitant malice , consciencelesse rayling people , malice , scurrilous obiection . fol. 91. Malicious cauill , counterfet or cauiling Cath : malignity , pure malice , swelling enuie , pestilent bookes , violent and virulent people , without wit or honesty . fol. 92. Shamelesse bookes , false Libellers , wilfull calumniations , fabulous Lucianicall narration , spirit of spite , lacke of shame . fol. 93. Infamy , fardell of lyes , impudencie her selfe , brazen or iron face , desperate behauiour , a life of loud lyes desperatly faced out , monstrous lye , impudent lye , shamelesse , insolent , impious . fol. 94. Wild , mad , insolent , desperate course , frantike & possessed men , monstrous lyes , absurd prophanities , malicious fictions , consciencelesse calumniations , wretched and miserable mens harts , dispightfully , breake with enuie and rancor , furious barkings , outragious Libells , hatred , hellish spirit , poysoned entralls , horrible puddle of lyes , slaunderous inuectiues , deuillish detraction , base , vile , malicious , venome of life , and loose tongue armed with audacity , defended with impudencie , stirred vp with enuie , enraged with furie , bounded by no limits of conscience , piety , or feare of God , &c. loathsome ragges of a filthy dunghill . fol. 95. Vnworthy ragges torne and rent from the honorable Clergie by wilfull mutiny and rebellion , wrangling Clergie , pride , arrogancie , ignorance , obstinacie , wicked & odious both to God and man. fol. 96. Malicious things , desperatly , secret Apostasie , sedicions , a scold , wanton idle headed boy , younkers , leuity of the lad , vnconstant head . fol. 97. Infamous inuectiue , spleene , spight , malicious stomacke , way to perdition , vnsuited Gentleman , shuttle braines , lasciuious companion , beastly and sensuall imagination . fol. 98. Copes-mate , and Apostata in hart , impudencies , deadly and deuillish hatred , trayterous & Iudas like natures , slaunderous lyes and reproaches , malice , malicious deuised calumniations . fol. 99. Sedicious falshood , forged and malicious , shamelesse creatures , ridiculous , impious , fond , furious , mad men , watt tumbler , contemptible and contumelious , audacious , rash , vnlearned , fantasticall , scurrilous , infamatory , a most lewd Libell fraught with foolery , ignorance , audacity , and notorious impudencie , and irreligious impiety , egregious impiety , contemptibility . ¶ In the eight Chapter . fol. 101. Scandalous , clamorous , contradictious scandalous fact , disordinate and discontented Priests , sedicions , assault of sathan vnder Priests coates , sedition , dangerous , and poysoned humors , naughty will , rayling broyles . fol. 102. Become as Tho. Bell , passion , malice , brabling people , vnquiet spirity , enuie , perfidiousnes to God , passionate disordred brethren , friends in a traunce , men possessed with violent and raging spirits . fol. 104. Spirit of pride , enuie , reuenge , clamors , slaunders , calumniation , disobedience , wicked spirit , quodlibetticall companion , prophane , audacious , impudent spirit , wicked spirit , irreligious companions . fol. 105. Pride , emulation , ignorance , temerity , and folly , outragious malice . fol. 106. Folly , madnes , spiritus vertiginis , or arreptitius , enemies against the Pope , deadly hatred . fol. 107. The deuill himselfe , rayling , lying , malicious fashood , calumniator , wicked forgery , malicious people , odious and irefull vaine of rayling , mad fellow . fol. 108. Contemptuous discourse , Pharisaicall vanity , basenes , euill feature , contemptible qualities . fol. 109. Insolencies , vaine , false , and wicked , without all conscience , modesty , or respect of Christianity , perfidious detractions , seditiously , rancor , malice , sedition , impudent forged lyes , meere forgery , without remorse of conscience , spirit of sathan . fol. 110. Disorderly Scholers . fol. 111. Lying spirit , notorious slaunders & lyes , shamelesse assertions , notorious lyes , blind Bayard . fol. 112. More then halfe franticke , meere madnes , spirits of clamors , rage , reuenge , enuie , emulation , audacious speeches , disobedience , contempt , &c. discontented people . fol. 114. Ambition , liberty of life , &c. I haue here set downe onely the words for the most part , not the sentences , for the auoyding of tediousnes : referring the reader for tryall , vnto the Chapters and pages cited : yet haue I omitted not onely diuers bitter words and sentences , and all his vncharitable predictions and forspeakings , but also all his contumelious , and disgracefull comparisons made very often and frequent betweene Luther , Anabaptists , and other heretikes , and vs : as also all his vntruthes & falshoods , which if I should haue compiled heere together , would haue exceeded the measure of this worke intended at the first : wherefore I remit the Reader to the discourse it selfe , where he shall finde them dispersed in great number thoroughout the booke . FINIS . ¶ Errata . FOl. 5 , a. line 1 , for examples , reade epistles . Ibidem , b , line , 35 , for iudgements , reade inducements . Fol. 11 , a. line 10. for example , reade epistle . Fol. 12 , a line 2. for example , reade epistle . Ibidem , line 15. for seemed , reade seeming . Fol. 15. a. line 5. for , to be , reade , to haue beene . Fol. 21 , b. line 11 , for vnknowne , reade knowne . Ibidem , line 13. for acclamation , reade exclamation . Fol. 26 , a. line 29. for deceased , reade diseased . Fol. 28. a. line 17. for seruant , reade Cittizen . Fol. 67. a. line 7. for F. B. reade W. C. Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A17505-e340 Declaratio motuum . The copies of discourses . The hope of peace . Relatio turbarum . The Memoriall . The fourth paragraph of the Memoriall . Fa : Parsons claimed the Prouincialship , & Fa : Haywood an exemption , beeing sent immediatly from his holines . One Gentlewoman gaue him a vest : of needle-worke valued at an 100. marks at one time . The 5. paragraph . The 7. Artic. 1. Artic. 6. Artic. 7. Artic. 9. Artic. ●0 . Artic. 10. Art. 12. Art. 13. Art. 17. Ma. Iones . * Ma. A. R. * Ma. Ioh. Gerard. I. G. Wats : An other case deduced out of the former grounds . Important considerations . Iohn as good as Thomas . Imp. P : 40. I note the suspitious deaths of these two prelats , not as accusing him therewith , leauing it to Gods iudgment , but because he maketh no conscience what suspitions he casteth out of others . Collins . Bullocks . Ducket . Their dealings in the affaires of our Archpriest , vnder the name of the Priests themselues , doth shew as much . Do : Cicill , Maister Wright . * F : Parsons . b F : Garnet . c F : C●rrey . d F : Oldcorn ▪ e F : Percy . f F : Bankes . The Sparing discouerie . Wiseman wholy Iesuited , if not a Iesuite . This was the Iesuite report in Rome . The Dialogue . Ma : A. C. his letter to his Cosen . After the action in the yere 88. no man can say that the cardinall dealt in any attempt against our country . * Math. 18. * 1 , Cor. 11. Listers Libell . Tompson . Coulson . Waine . Cope . Ma : Pencheuell . Lysters Libell . Quodlibets . Quodlibets , page , 137. 138. Marke Fa : Parsons familiar spirit of prophecie . Quodlibets . page 198. Chap. 4. folio . 39. Folio . 133.