The abatement of popish braggs, pretending Scripture to be theirs. Retorted by the hand of Alexander Cooke Cooke, Alexander, 1564-1632. 1625 Approx. 142 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 35 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2009-03 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A19242 STC 5658 ESTC S108620 99844277 99844277 9074 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A19242) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 9074) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1475-1640 ; 879:14) The abatement of popish braggs, pretending Scripture to be theirs. Retorted by the hand of Alexander Cooke Cooke, Alexander, 1564-1632. [8], 59, [1] p. Printed by William Iones dwelling in Red-Crosse-streete, London : 1625. A dialogue. Reproduction of the original in the British Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. 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Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Catholic Church -- Controversial literature -- Early works to 1800. 2006-08 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2006-09 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2008-03 Taryn Hakala Sampled and proofread 2008-03 Taryn Hakala Text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-09 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE ABATEMENT OF POPISH BRAGGS , PRETENDING SCRIPTVRE TO BE THEIRS . RETORTED BY THE HAND OF ALEXANDER COOKE . LONDON , Printed by WILLIAM IONES dwelling in Red-Crosse-streete . 1625. TO ALL LAY PAPISTS IN THIS KINGDOME . DEare Countreymen and seduced brethren , I religiously protest , I honour some of you ; and loue all of you . Grieuing in my very soule : that you , and I , acknowledging one and the selfe same true God , cannot hit vpon the worshiping of him after one and the selfe same true manner : Oh that I might liue to see the day wherein we might agree in one ! But I haue small hope to see it , as long as you suffer your Priest , to bring you in bondage , to deuoure you , to take your goods : as the a Corinthians suffered the false Apostles to ferue them . — Por , as the b leaders of the people caused Israel to erre : and their c shepheards caused them to goe astray , & turned them away to the mountaines : so it is your Priests that haue misled you ; and that they may make merchandize of you , as the false Prophets ( who in d St. Peters dayes taught damnable heresies ) made of them , who followed their destruction , it is your Priests who doe hinder your returne into the right way . To alienate your affections from vs , they tell you : That we teach , e All sinnes are equall . f All Scripture is very easie . That we maintaine the heresie of the g Simonians , which was : that men might bee saued by the grace of Simon Magus : and the heresie of the h Eunomians , which was : i That whosoeuer beleeued one especiall point of doctrine which they beleeusd , viz. That the Son of God is altogether vnlike the Father : and the Holy-Ghost vnlike the Sonne : could not possibly be damned , how damnably soeuer hee liued . They report wee maintaine the her esy of the k Repusians , which was : That women might be Priested : and one of the heresiesof l Iouinian , which was : That a man truely baptized could sinne no more : and another of the same mans , which was : m That the Virgin Mary at the time of her child-birth lost her virginitie . They report wee maintaine , that heresie of Vigilantius , which was : n That Clergy men ought of necessity to be married . and that of the Pelagtans , viz : o That the children of the faithfull are not tainted with originall sin : and that of the Graecians , viz : p That iust men shall not see the face of god before the day of dome : and that of the Pseudo apostoli , which was q That onely faith is sufficient to saluation without workes : and that of the r Nouatians , which consisted in dening the Churches power to forgiue sinnes : and that of the Aérians , to wit , That solemne fasts are not to be appointed by the Church . They would make you beleeue , t we plainely deny Melchizedech to haue ben a Priest , That we teach , u God can doe no more then he hath done , or will doe . That x water in Baptisme is not necessary . That y we abhorre the prayers of the Saints . That z we take away pennance , fasting , chastity , keeping of vowes , necessity of good workes , obedience to Ecclesiasticall persons . a That it is not in our power to choose euill . b That the Angels cannot helpe vs. c That no saint deceased hath afterward appeared to any in earth . d That fasting is not grounded vpon scripture : no e nor blessing . and in briefe ( to passe by many other ) some of them are not ashamed to say , we beleeue f the soules of men are mortall : g and that there is no resurection : and h that Christ Iesus is not come in the flesh , from all which errors , heresies and blasphemies we are as farre as they are from truth & honesty . On the other side , to win your affections to thē , they i beare you in hand , that the Scriptures , the Fathers , the Counsels , are all yours : that k Heauen : yea Hell : the gates of Cities : the glasse-windowes in Churches : res et reculae , giue testimony to your Religion . Whereas yet they dare not referre the iudgement of such differences asare betweene vs , either to Scripture , or Fathers , or Counsels : but onely to the l present Church , which is all one in effect , as if they referred it vnto themselues , or to your Pope : they being , in their opiniō , the Church representatiue : the Pope being the Church virtually , m who only hath power to iudge of controuersies . Now doe you not smell there is some pad in the straw by their diuelish slaundring of vs : and their cogging with you ? I passe by their restraining you from reading any of ourbookes , especially the Bible of our translation , though n one of them of late assures you , That our condemnation is so expresly set downe in our owne Bibles , and is so cleere to all the world , that nothing more needs hereto , but onely that you know to reade , and to haue your eyes in your heads at the opening of our Bible : which might giue you occasion to suspect some falshood : for if our condemnation bee so expressely set downe in them , why may not you for your greater comfort reade them ? Onely I wish you would be pleased to consider seriously , whether it be likely they had any honest meaning in making their Indices Expurgatorios : & forbidding you to reade books writtē by your owne frends , till they had patched something into them , which might make for you ▪ and torne out of them , whatsoeuer they thought did make against you . Mee thinks ( considering your many good morall parts ) you should not be so stupid , as not to perceiue : or so blinde , as not to see there is some my stery of iniquity in it , that you may neither reade what your friends , or foes haue written . Quidam senex &c , A certaine old man ( as o one of your owne writers ) being asked by one who had a purpose to betake himselfe into a Monastery , how he should carry himselfe after his admission , answered him in good earnest ▪ Tuet Asinus vnum estote . Carry thy selfe like an Asse , refuse no burthen that is laid vpon thy backe . Doe not groane at it . For my part I feare they would make Asses of you all . They would haue you to receiue hand ouer head whatsoeuer they reach you : to beleeue ( without search ) whatsoeuer they tel you . But as some of you are Noble Gentlemen , others of you good fellows ; be not Asse ▪ fied by them . Remember that you are men , men of vnderstanding , and able to iudge of reason when you heare it . Beleeue none of your Priests vpon their bare words , without proofe : but especially take heede how you lightly beleeue your ordinary Masse-Priests : for in truth , the most of them are ignorant Sir Iohns , not much vnlike the p Bishop of Dunkelden , who thanked God , he neuer knew what the old and new Testament was . The most of them are not much guiltie of learning . Take hearts vnto you ( beloued Countreymen ) and reade our bookes , and our Bibles : my soule for yours , you may doe it with good consciences , and with much profit to your selues . But if you cannot be perswaded thereunto : yet let me intreate this of you , that you will forbeare to censure either our bookes , or our persons , vpon your Priests bare information . For their words are no Gospel : their tongues no slaunder . And that you would remember that of g Tertullian , Quid iniquius quàm vt oderint homines quod ignorant ; etiamsi res mereatur odium . Tuncenim meretur , cum cognoscitur an mereatur . Vacante autē meriti notitia , vnde odij iustitia defenditur , quae non deeventu , sed de conscientia probanda est ? with which I end , wishing to you all as to my selfe , a comfortable life , and blessed death . Leeds in Yorkshire May 20. 1625. ALEXANDER COOKE . A DIALOGVE BETWIXT A PROTESTANT AND A PAPIST : Wherein is manifested , the Papists Brag , that Scripture maketh for them . Protestant . OH well met once againe ! where haue you bin that I neuer saw you since wee talked about Pope Ioane ? Are you the same man for Religion , that you was then ? Papist . Yea truely , or rather more resolute , and confident . Prot. What new arguments haue you lighted on to increase your resolution and confidence ? for my part , I am euery day further out of loue with your Religion , then other . Pa. The Arguments which haue doubled my resolution and confidence are diuers , wherof the first is this : a That I find sentence giuen for vs Catholikes against you Protestants in all the Tribunals of Gods Church , I finde that all the Writings of the Saints in Heauen professe for vs. Prot. What ? the Writings of the Prophets and of the Apostles ? and of the Fathers in the Primitiue Church ? and of the Councels ? Doe you finde that all professe for you ? Pa. Yea , all of them : b Quaecunque vel opera , vel fragmenta supersunt eorum qui disiunctissimis terris Euangelium seuerunt , omnes nobis vnam fidem exhibent quam hodie Catholici profitemur . There is not a booke , nor a piece of a booke extant , written by the first Preachers of the Gospel , whensoeuer , or how far so euer they liued one from another , but it giues witnesse to the Catholike Faith which wee professe at this day . Prot. Can you make proofe thereof vnto mee , and I will bee of your Religion ? Pa. That I can ; and I will first begin with Scriptures : for I am of c Doctor Saunders opinion , That there are most plaine Scriptures in all points for the Catholike Faith , and none at all against the same . And of d Doctor Bristoes mind , whose words these are ; Most certaine it is , that from the beginning of Genesis to the end of the Apocalips there is no Text that makes for you , nor against vs but all for vs. Prot. Say you so ? Verily , and if the Scriptures be for you , I will be with you : for I like well of e Saint Basils motion to one with whom hee had a controuersie ; Stemus arbitratu inspiratae à Deo Scriptura , & apud quos inueniuntur dogmata diuinis oraculis consona , illis omnino veritas adiudicetur sententiae . Let vs stand to the arbiterment of holy Scripture , and let them be thought to haue the truth on their side whose opinions are found to be agreeable to Scriptures . But let mee tell you a word or two by the way , and they are these ▪ viz. That you are not more thorowly perswaded of the truth of your two Doctors speeches , then I am of a Gentlemuns speech of our Religion , who being importuned by an idle Questionist of your side , to tell where our Religion was before Luthers time , returned him this answere ▪ That our Religion was alwaies in the Bible , where your Religion neuer was . In which perswasion I am the more confirmed by this , That there f are of your selues ( no fooles I wisse ) who write , that some among you , Poene peceatum putant Scripturas legere , ne sic siant haeretici : Doe thinke it almost a sinne to read the Scriptures , least by reading of them they should proue hereticks . For if your Religion were in the Bible , and that in so plaine manner as you brag , why should any of you bee so afraid of opening a Bible ▪ why did one of your g Iesuits confesse , that Lectis Bebliotu●t cicius haereticum Lutheranum , quam Catholicum Romanum facit : The reading of the Bible makes rather Hereticall Lutherans , then Romau Catholikes ? Why suffer you this marginal Note , h Nunc ex●●udit haresies , to be set ouer these words of Chrysosta●● , ●g●oratio scripturarum peperit haereses . Pa. I meane not to take vpon mee the iustifying of euery mans priuate conceits or speeches ; but what I my selfe haue said , all that shall bee made good . I will proue vnto you the troth of our Religion by the Bible . Prot. Now ( indeede ) I am afraid you are bewitched with that damnable opinion , which of later yeeres hath runne currantly among you , viz. Sunt i scriptura V●lut nasus cereus , qui se her sum , illorsum , & in quam volueris partem trahi , retrahi , fingique facile permittit , & tanquam plumbea quadam Lesbi●●disicationis regula , quam no● 〈◊〉 difficile accommodare ad quiduis volueris . The Scriptures are like a nose of waxe , which may bee writhen this way , or that way , backward , or forward as a manwould would haue it . And with that of Quintinus the Parisian k Doctor , commended by Pamelius , who writes thus . l Tam facile est , im● facilius est adres profanas & impias pr●bandas detorquere sanctam scripturam , quam facile est & pedibus , ac semi-pedibus aut penthememeribus Virgilianis Epithalmia , sen quiduis aliud in vnum congerere . It is as casie , yea it is more easie to wrest the Scripture to the prouing of any villany or impiety : then to make a Loue Song , by snatching here a patch and there a patch of a Verse out of Virgil. And that in confidence hereof you hope to make a shew of somewhat out of the Bible for the prouing of your Religion : otherwise I know not what should moue you to beginne with Scripture . You haue forgotten ( I beleeue ) that m Doctor Bristow describing the meanes to make plaine demonstration , that Heretikes haue no euidence , but you all , aduiseth his Agents to labour still to get the Heretickes out of their weake and false Castle of holy Scripture , into the plaint fields of Councels and Fathers . For all his bragging of the Scriptures , hee put but a little trust in them : hee was loth to haue them in the foreward . Pa. But I am content they match in the foreward , if you will beleeue me . Prot. Why , but I pray you then place the best formost . And if we fall into dispute with Saint Peters Supremacie , trouble mee not with such Texts as some of your n Rabbies alledge for it . Tell me not that our Sauiour Christ said vnto S. Peter onely , Duc in altum : Launch into the deepe . No● potuisti vna hora vigilare mecum ? Couldst thou not watch one houre with mee ? Sequere me , Follow me . Neither tell mee in way of prouing the same , That S. Peter cut off Malous care . And if from that wee fall to argue about your Popes omnipotency , alledge me not the first verse of the first Chapter of Genesis for it , as your o Pope Boniface the eight did : neither yet the sixteenth verse of the said Chapter , as another of your Popes , euen p Innocentius the third did . Nor that in Ieremy , Chap. 1. v. 10. as the same Innocentius q did . Let mee notheere out of your mouth , as making to that purpose , That the spirituall man iudgeth all things , and himselfe is iudged of no man. Loe : Two swords here . Returne thy sowrd into his place . Know you not that we shall iudge the Angels ? which are the special Texts wheron your r Boniface rested . Neither would I willingly heare of ſ Baronius Text , Act. 10. Kill and eate . For that which t Polidore Virgil obserued to be the tricke of Popish Canonists is found practised by those whomake ▪ these Arguments . viz. Non secus ists aliquoties de●●●quent sacr as scriptur as quò volunt , ac sutores for did as solent dentibus extendere pelles . These Canonists do● now and then stretch the Scriptures to their purpose , as shooemakers doe their greasie ouer-leathers with their teeth . Pa. Some of these Texts afford Arguments good enough for the conclusions for which they are brought . Yet feare not you : for I meane not to trouble you with any of them . Prot. Neither , if wee ahue occasion to talke of Communicating in one kind , will you ( I hope ) u alledge vnto mee , for proofe of your practise , the words in our Pater Noster , Giue vs this day our daily bread . Nor x tell me , That our Sauiour Christ , Ioh. 6. multiplied l●aues , but multiplied no drinke . Nor y cite 1 Cor. 5. 7 , 8. Our Pasch Christ is immolated . Let vs therefore feast in the Azymes of sinceritie and veritie . And if wee fall to argue by case , whether it be meet that boyes and wenches should make Monkish vowes of obedience , poucrtie , and chastitie : you will not presse mee with such Texts as z Bellarmine stands vpon , where he disputes the point . You will not tell me , It is written by Ieremy , Lament . 3. 27. It is good for a man to beare the yoke from his youth . And that our Sauiour Christ said , Matth. 19. 14. Suffer little children to come vnto mee . Neither will you in way of prouing , That boyes and wenches may enter into Monasteries against their parents mindes : alledge that Text in Gen. 12. Get thee out of thy country , and from thy kindred , and from thy fathers 〈◊〉 Nor that in Deut. 33. 9. Hee that said vnto his father and to his mother , I know you not , &c. Not that in the Psalme 45. 10. Forget thine owne people , and thy fathers house , and the King shall haue pleasure in thy beautie . Nor that in S. Matth. 10. 37. Hee that loueth father or mother more then mee , is not worthy of mee . Nor that in S. Luke 9. 60. &c. Let the dead bury the dead . Which are the onely Scriptures alledged by a Bellarmine in that Controuersie . For these Texts are so far from prouing any such couclusions , that a man may truly sweare , Hee and his with had made a fray who alledged them . Pa. I will not trouble you with this neither . Prot. Nor with that , Matth. 7. 6. Giue yee not that which is holy to dogs , in way of prouing : b That ignorant persons may not reade the Scriptures . Nor with that in Genesis . God for Adams sinne cursed the earth , but not the water , in way of prouing . c That it is lawfull for a man to eate Fish in Lent , but not Flesh . You will make mee no such Conclusions as these . d Our Sauiour Luke 4. opened the booke and read a few verses in it , and afterwards closed it . Ergo , Diuine Seruice is not to bee said in a knowne language . e Be yee holy , for I am holy . Ergo , Ministers of the Gospel may not lie with their wiues . God f said vnto Iobs friends , Goe vnto my seruant Iob. Ergo , Scripture affordeth a particular precept , binding men to Inuocation of Saints . g God told Iobs friends , That Iob should pray for them . Ergo , the Scripture affordeth a particular example of praying to Saints . h God promised Iobs friendes , That hee would accept of Iobs prayer , &c. Ergo , The Scripture affordeth a particular example of blessing to such as pray to Saints . i S. Peter condemneth the vnlawfull seruice of Idols , 1 Pet. 4. 3. Ergo , some Idolatry is lawfull . k S. Paul commaunds to set the contemptible in the Church to iudge . l Ergo , The ancient Christians might , if their abilities had serued , haue deposed from the Empire both the Heathen and Hereticall Emperours . Pa. The Conclusions which I will make shall arise naturally from the Text : for they shall bee drawne from the expresse wordes , which are one thousand times more cleere for vs , then they are for you , as m Cardinall Allen affirmes . Yea , very many of the Texts which I will cite , shall bee so open and euident , that vnlesse you deny them to be text of Scripture , you shall not bee able to auoide them , and the rest shall be o such as you cannot shift without glozes and fond interpretations of your owne . Prot. Perhaps you will take them to be open and euident for your purpose , which neither seeme to mee : nor are indeed such in themselues . You know the Prouerbe ; As the foole thinketh , so the bell ringeth . I doubt not but those * Puritan Monkes , p who made themselues woodden Crosses , and carried them on their backes continually , making all the world laugh at them , thought the Text , Matth. 10. Hee that taketh not a Crosse , and followeth mee , is not worthy of mee : a plaine and worthy Text for the approuing of their practise . And it may be that the French-men , q who for the proofe of their Salike-Law , alledged the words of our Sauiour , Luk. 12. 27. Considerate Lilia quomodo crescunt : non laborant , ne que nent . Consider the Lillies of the field how they grow , they labour not , neither doe they spin : concluding thereon , Lilia Francorum non deberi nisi nebilibus qui non laborant : nec deberi nisi masculis qui non nent . That the Flower-de-luces of France ( meaning the Crowne of France ) belongs to none but Nobles , who worke not for their liuing ; and those men , not women ( who are Spinsters ) thought they had a good text in hand for their purpose . Certainly your lousie S. Francit , was not ashamed to say , that the words of our Sauiour , Matth. 25. 40. Quod vni ex minoribus meis fecistis , mihi fecistis . Whatsoeuer you haue done to one of these little ones , you haue done it vnto mee : were spoken by him r specialiter , yea ſ ad literam , of his Frier-Minorits . And your t Pisanus Writer of that lousie Friers Alcaron will needs threaten vs downe , That the words of S. Paul , Galat. 6. 16. As many as walke according to this Rule , peace shall bee vpon them and mercy : were meant of Francis his rule . Haue you not read that a Sorbonist finding it written at the end of S. Pauls Epistles , Missa est , &c. u bragd hee had found the Masse in his Bible ? And that another reading in S. Iohn 1. 42. inuenimus Messiam , x drew thence the same conclusion . In y Salaminca a Frier tooke vpon him to proue , That the name of the Virgin Mary was spoken of Gen. 1. where wee read , that God called the gatherings together of the waters Maria. I doubt not but he thought it an open and euident text for his turne . z In another place , another Frier speaking of the words , Ge. 14. 18. Rex Salem panem ac vinū pertulit : fell into a long discourse of the nature of Salt. ▪ the nature of Salt. ● beleeue he could hardly haue been perswaded that Salem there , had not signified Salt. Your D. Poynes who writes , a That it was foretold in the Old Testament , That the Protestants were a malignant Church , alledging for proofe thereof , 2. Chr. 24. 19. where , according to our vulgar Translation we read thus , Mittebatque prophet as vt reuerterentur ad Dominum , quos protestantes illi audire nolebant , thought an hundred for one , that the text was plaine . And it may bee that Parish Priest of yeeres , who being at controuersie with his Parishioners about pauing some plot of ground , and alledging the wordes in Ier. 17. 18. to proue that he was not bound to paue any place , saying : Paueant illi , ego non paueant : was not in iest , but in good earnest , thinking the letter of the text made euidently for him . Verily I am perswaded , that that c Painter , whosoeuer he was , who first painted Moses with a paire of hornes : making him , as the Iewes say , like a deuil : thought the text in Exod. 34. 30. where you read , Faciem Moses esse cornutam , Moses face was horned ; a plaine warrant for his picturing him so . And I make no question , but d they who make the world beleeue they haue the two keyes of S. Peter at Rome , shewing them sometimes that they may bee adored : if they were vrged to make proofe how S. Peter came by those keyes , would alledge the words of the Euangelist , To thee will I giue the keyes of the Kingdome of heauen , as an open and euident text for that matter . Pa. What adoe make you about had I wists ? I tell you once againe , e The Scriptures which I will alledge shall be plaine , and the expositions such , as you shall take no acceptions against . For , for the the truth of our expositions of holy Scripture , wee haue the continuall tradition of the Church : and the testimony and suffrage of all the holy Fathers , and of thousands of Saints and learned men , who euer expounded it as we doe , and out of it gathered the selfe same doctrine and beliefe . Prot. No meruaile if this be so , that you f sweare thē whole Colledge of your Cardinalls : all your Archbishops , Bishops , Priests , Abbats , Priors , Friers , Graduats , that they shall neuer take the Scriptures in other sense , or interpret it to others in other sense , then that which the Fathers gaue thereof with ioynt consent . But I meruell as much that you blush not in saying as you doe : as that they tremble not who administer and take such an oath : for as they wittingly giue occasion of periury , who administer such an oath , and they periure themselues who take such an oath : so you apparently speake ouer . Yet seeing you are so confident , let vs fall to our worke roundly : And first let mee heare by you , what the Scriptures are which are so plaine for the proofe of your opinions : and when you haue done , you shall heare by me what plaine texts may be alledged for proofe of our opinions . Pa. g Take then that for the first ; h Host est corpus meum , Hic est sanguis meus : This is my body ; This is my bloud . Prot. For what opinion of yours is this Scripture so plaine ? Pa. For the Reall presence in the Sacrament , which you deny . Prot. Wee beleeue as well as you , That Christs flesh and bloud are truely present , and truely receiued of the faithfull at the Lords Table . We i teach the people , that Christieorpus datur , accipitur , manducatur in Caena . The body of Christ is giuen ( indeed and verily ) and taken and eaten in the Lords Supper . k The question betweene vs and you is de modo : about the manner of Christs presence : and not de obiecto , whether hee bee present or no. You l say , Christ is in the Sacrament really , substantially , corporally , carnally , naturally . Yea , m you say , He is there sensualiter , sensibly : vt manibus sacerdotum tractari , velfrangi , aut fidelium dentibus atteri possit : so that the Priests may handle him and breake him with their hands , and the faithfull may teare him with their teeth . Now this manner of presence we deny : and the letter of the wordes which wee alledge proues not that . For Christ said , This is my body ; and not , This is my body in such a manner . n Caietan your Cardinall confesseth , Non apparere ex Èuangelio coactivum aliquid quo possimus conuincere-haereticos ad intelligendum verba haec , Hoc est corpus meum , propriè : sed tenendum hoc esse solùm ex authoritate Ecclesiae quae ita verba consecrationis declarat . There is nothing in the Gospel whereby an Hereticke may bee inforced to expound the words , This is my body , properly : but men are to beleeue so , because the Church teacheth so . And o Fisher Bishop of Rochester confesseth , Neque vllum hîc ( viz. in Matth. ) verbum positum est , quo probetur in nostra Missa veram fieri carnis & sanguinis Christi praesentiam . There is not a word in S. Matthews Gospel whereby it can be proued , that Christ is really present in your Sacrament . Your second instance had need be plainer . Pa. My second instance is plaine enough : for p we haue expresly , The bread which I will giue , is my flesh , Ioh. 6. 51. Prot. For what opinion of yours are these words so plaine ? Pa. For the former point : euen for the Reall presence in the Sacrament . And yet q you expound them , as if no more were meant by them , then that wee should haue giuen vs the signe of his flesh onely . Prot. We doe not expound them so : We r say , That the wordes are meant of Christ himselfe , the word that was made flesh , Ioh. 1. 14. Wee expound them not of the signe of his flesh . We teach , That ſ the true bread , t the bread of God , which came downe from heauen , and giueth life vnto the world , u is Christ , x euen the flesh , the very flesh of Christ , that is , Christ incarnate : and that hee gaue vs this bread to eate , not in the Sacrament , but vpon the Crosse . And this exposition of ours is approued for good by Gabriel Biel , Lect. 84. super Canon . Missae . By Nic. Cusanus Epist . 7. ad Bohemos . By Caietan in 3. part . Tho. 9. 80. Art. vlt. By Ruard . Tapperus in explicat . Artic. 15. Louan . To. 2. By Hessels , lib. de Communione sub vnicaspecie . Tract . 1. By Iansen . Concord . Euang. cap. 59. as Bellarmine acknowledgeth , lib. 1. de Euch. cap. 5. And your selfe cannot with any reason maintaine the contrary , if you will bee tried by the expresse wordes . For you deny that Christ gaue bread at the celebration of this Sacrament . He gaue shewes of bread , not bread indeed , according to your learning . What is your third instance ? Pa. y We haue expresly , touching the Apostles inequalitie , He that is great among you , let him be made as the younger , Luk. 22. whereas you say , There was none greater then other among them . Prot. Here is some little shew , and no substance . For it is plaine by the expresse wordes of our Sauiour , Matth. 20. 25. and Mark. 10. 41. That no more is meant by the wordes you cite then this , viz. Hee that would bee great among you , let him bee made as the younger , which makes nothing for you , nor against vs. What is your fourth instance ? Pa. z Wee haue expresly , A man is iustified by workes , and not by faith onely , Iam. 2. 24. which is directly opposite to that which you hold , Man is not iustified by good workes , but by faith only . Prot. We doe not deny , that before men , and with men : A man may be iustified by workes . Wee deny only , That before God a man may be iustified by workes . Now Saint Iames speaks of Iustification , which is before , or with men : not of that which is before God , wherof Saint Paul speakes , from whom we gather our assertion . And that this is so , a Tho. of Aquin confesseth , for Iacobus hîc loquitur de operibus sequentibus fidem , quae dicuntur iustificare , non secundum quod iustificare dicitur institiae infusio ; sed secundum quod dicitur iustitiae exercitatio , vel ostensio , vel consummatio . S. Iames speaks here of Iustification , as it is taken for manifestation and approuing of iustification , saith Thomas . And so , these wordes doe neither make any thing for you , nor against vs. What is your fifth instance ? Pa. b We haue expresly , Whose sins yee forgiue , are forgiuen : Whose sinnes yee retaine , are retained , Ioh. 20. Prot. And what of this ? make these wordes against vs ? Pa. Yea , for c you say , Priests cannot forgiue , or retaine sins in earth . Prot. You say truely . * Wee beleeue that Ministers ( Priests as you call them ) haue power to forgiue and retaine sinnes on earth . The difference betweene vs and you is about the manner , which is not determined by those wordes , and about which you agree not among your selues . What is your sixtinstance ? Pa. d We haue expresly , The doers of the Law shall be iustified , Rom. 2. 13. Yet you say , The doing therof iustifieth not Christians . Prot. We say , That if a man can bring the Iustice which the Law requires , he shall be iustified thereby . But who can bring that , seeing in many things we sin all ? Iam. 3. 2. What is your seuenth instance ? Pa. e We haue expresly , Vow yee , and render your vowes , Psal . 75. Prot. And how then ? makes this against vs ? Pa. Yo● , for f you teach ; Wee should not vow , or if we vow , we ought to breake our vowes . Prot. We doe not ; A man , according to our Religion , may vow in some cases , and vpon some occasions , as is plaine by g our bookes , and acknowledged by h Bellarmine himselfe : and , by our Religion , he needs not vow ; for vouere nusquam est praeceptum . It s no where commanded that wee should vow , saith i one . And Fateor quia Deus non praecipit , sed tantum consulit nobis vt aliquid illi v●ueamus , I confesse that God commaunds vs not , but onely counsells vs to vow vnto him , saith an k other of you . Againe , l we teach , That when a man hath vowed a thing lawful , honest , and possible , he ought inuiolably to obserue it . And how then makes this text more for you , then for vs ? Pa. m Wee haue expresly , Keepe the traditions which you haue learned either by word , or by Epistle , 2 Thes . 2. 15. yet , n you say , The Apostles left nothing to the Church vnwritten . Prot. Wee say indeed , That the Apostles left no necessary tradition to the Church vnwritten : but wee doe not say , That S. Paul left no traditions to the Church of the Thessalonians vnwritten by him to them . We grant , that he deliuered to the Thessalonians traditions , which hee did not write in his Epistles which he writ to them . But what he deliuered by word to them , and not by way 〈◊〉 Epistle , that was written either by other holy men of God , or by himselfe in the Epistles which hee sent to others . So that though hee deliuered to the Thessalonians traditions , which he writ not in his Epistles sent to them : it followes not thereon , that he left some vnwritten [ necessary ] traditions to the Church in generall . What is your next instance ? Pa. o Wee haue expresly , If thou wit enter into life , keepe the Commandements , Matth. 19. 17. Yet you say , The Commaundements cannot bee kept ; yea , you p say , We are not bound vnto them . Prot. We confesse that we are bound to keepe the Commandements ; And if any be desirous to haue life euerlasting , by doing some good thing , as this young man was , to whom Christ spake these words , Hee must keepe the Commandements . Yet wee say , It followes not . He that would haue life euerl●sting by doing some good , must keepe the Commandements . Ergo , the Commandements may b●● kept : for by ▪ Gods Commandements wee learne what we should doe . Pa. Yea but q we haue expresly , That when the young man said , hee had already kept the Commandements ; it was said vnto him , ●f thou wilt bee perfect , goe and sell all things thou hast , and giue to the poore , and follow mee . Which shewes there is one degree of life perfecter then another . Prot. Nay , not so : It rather shewes there is but one degree of life which is perfect , euen that which consists in keeping the Commaundements ; and ( which is more ) Counsells . For vpon the young mans asse●eration , that he had kept all the Commandements from his youth , it is not said : If thou wilt be more perfect ; but , If thou wilt be perfect , as though there were no perfection attained vnto by keeping the whole Law. But indeede the young man lied in saying , he had kept all the Commandements from his youth . Else our Sauiour must bee thought to haue spoken ouer , when hee said , Ioh. 7. 19. Did not Moses giue you a law , and yet none of you keepes the law ? Haue you any moe instances ? Pa. Yea , many : for r wee haue expresly , worke your owne saluation with feare and trembling . Prot. And what gather you of that against vs : Pa. s That a man should not make it of his beliefe , that hee shall bee saued without all doubt and feares . Prot. Why ▪ may not a man feare to offend God , vnlesse he doubt that he shall finally fall away from God ? Are not those wiues most fearefull to offend their husbands : and those children most fearefull to offend their fathers : who are best assured of their husbands , and parents constant loue vnto them ? Feare of Gods anger against vs , by reason of our sins , may well stand with assurance of saluation . Else , why did t Dauid require , That wee should serue the Lord in feare , and reioyce in trembling ? May a man tremble , and yet reioyce ? and may hee not feare to offend , and yet be assured of fauour ? Pa. Well , u wee haue expresly , That euery man shall be iudged according to his workes , A poc . 20. Prot. Good : And so haue wee . Pa. Nay : x you teach , That men shall be iudged only according to their faith . Prot. That is not true : y We teach , that seeing it is most fitting for the nature and condition of iudgements , to take the euidence whereupon the sentence shall bee pronounced , from such things as are most notorious : the works good or euill being knowne both to Men and Angells , whereas faith , which hath her seat in the heart is only seene of the Lord : it is most conuenient for iustifying the truth of the Iudge before the world , that those things should bee giuen in euidence , which fall into the knowledge of the standers by ; especially when the godly themselues shall be admitted into part of the honour of our Sauiour Christs iudiciall sentence against the reprobates . And for this cause it is ( as we say ) that our Sauiour at the latter day will say , Come yee blessed of my Father — For when I was hungry you gaue me meate — rather then , For that you haue beleeued in mee . Haue you any more to say ? Pa. Yea : z Wee haue expresly , That there remains a retribution , stipend , and pay to euery good worke in heauen , Mark. 9. 1 Corinth . 3. Apoc. 22. Psal . 118. Prot. And doe wee denie it ? * Wee beleeue no good deed shall be lost : no not the bestowing of a cup of cold water in the name of a disciple . Wherefore this makes nothing against vs. Pa. Yea , but a you teach , Good workes done in Christ merit nothing . Prot. Yea , but it is one thing to teach , That good works done in Christ find retribution and paiment in heauen : and another thing to say , They merit some things : for retribution and stipends , and paies are as well giuen of curtesie , as of debt or merit . Wherefore we teach the former , and deny the latter . VVhat is your next instance ? Pa. b Wee haue expresly , That the affliction which Daniel vsed vpon his bodie was acceptable in the sight of God , Dan. 10. Prot. And what is that to vs ? Pa. Much : for c you teach , That such voluntary corporall afflictions are in vaine . Prot. But wee doe not . Wee teach with S. Paul , 1 Tim. 4. 8. that Corporall exercise ( voluntarie corporall afflictions ) are profitable to little . There is some good vse of them . Not a man of vs teacheth , that such voluntary corporall afflictions as Daniel vsed , and to such end as hee did vse them are in vaine . Haue you not done ? Pa. No : d wee haue a plaine text , Gen. 48. God who hath fed mee from my youth vp euen to this day : The Angel who hath deliuered mee from all aduers●ie blesse these children . e Which implies as much as if we would say , God and our Ladie blesse them . Prot. By the Angel , which is here praied vnto , is not meant any created Angel : but the Angel of the euerlasting Couenant , Christ Iesus ; as it is plaine by the f circumstances of the text , and by that testimony of the g Fathers . And therfore this praier doth not iustifie your praier , God and our Lady blesse them . No man euer conceiued a praier after this manner ; Det tibi Deus & Angelus , that is in effect , God and our Lady blesse them , saith h Athanasius . Pa. i We haue expresly : It is an holy cogitation to pray for the dead , 2. Mach. 12. Prot. Yea , but the Booke of Machabees is not Canonicall Scripture , as I shall proue vnto you ere wee part . Now I looke for proofe at your hands out of the Canonicall Scripture . Pa. Why then , if I should tell you , k we read expresly in the same Booke , that Ieremy the Prophet after hee was dead praied for the people of Israel : wherby is proued Intercession of Saints ; you would put mee off with this , That the Scripture alledged by me is not Canonicall Scripture . Prot. I might doe so : yet I need not , for we deny not that Saints make intercession for vs in generall . And your l Bellarmine alledgeth this to that purpose only . Hee alledgeth it not either to proue Inuocation of Saints ; or the intercession of Saints in particular . Pa. And what would you answere me if I vrged , That m wee haue an expresse example of an holy man that offered sacrifice for the dead , 2 Mach. 12. Prot. I would answere you to it ; That the holy man you meane of , offered sacrifice for the liuing and not for the dead . And for the full proofe thereof , I would referre you to Doctor Reinolds Readings vpon the Apocrypha , praelect . 158. Pa. And what answere should I looke to receiue of you vpon mention , that Tobit . 12. n wee read expresly , That an Angel did present Tobias good workes and almes deeds before God. Prot. My answere to that should bee , That the booke is Apocrypha . Pa. And is not the Booke of Ecclesiasticus Apocrypha , o in which wee read expresly thus : Omnis misericordia faciet locum vnicuique secundum meritum operum ; Mercie shall make a place to euery man according to the merit of his workes ? Prot. Yes : but I will vse the exception in this case . The exception which I take is , that the wordes are cited out of a corrupt Translation : for in the Greek , wherein Ecclesiasticus was first written , there is no mention made of merit . To euery pitlifull act of goodnesse giue place , for euery one shall find ( not according to the merit of his works , but ) according to his works , saith the Greeke . Pa. Indeed I confesse , the word merit is not in the Greeke : for the word merit is not Greeke , but Latine ; yet the Greeke wordes are well translated by the word merit , no man can deny who knowes the rudiments of Greek : for in the Greek it is , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which in Latine signifies as much as pro meritis operum . Prot. Indeed you fit it : for our Sauiour Christ , warning his disciples how they should carry themselues towardes the Scribes and Pharisies : Doe not ( p saith hee ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( not meaning after the merit of their workes , but simply ) after their works . Your great M. q Cardinal Bellarmine , of whom you had this , was deceiued . Pa. And is that proofe , which r we fetch for merits out of Heb. 13. 16. fetched out of a corrupt translation , Beneficence and communication forget not ; for with such sacrifices God is promerited . Prot. Yea verily : for according to the Greeke the Apostle saith no more , but : That with such hosts God is wel pleased . And that may appeare vnto you by this , that both ſ S. Austine , and t Beda read so ; and u your own Translator else where translates so . Pa. Yet x Primasius S. Austines Scholler reads it as it is in our vulgar Latin : With such hosts God is promerited . Prot. Yea , but how know you that that Commentarie is Primasius his owne ? for it is the selfe same which is fathered on Haymo , who liued after the yeere 800. whose credit is nothing answerable to Primasius . Pa. Well , let both these places passe . y Is not a plaine text for extreme vnction , which is in S. Iames , Infirmatur quis in vobis — If any among you bee dangerously sicke , let him send for the Priests of the Church , and they to pray ouer him , anealing him with oyle in the name of the Lord. Prot. Of whom learned you to translate Infirmatur quis in vobis . If any man bee dangerously sicke , &c. I thought the word Infirmatur , had signified any infirmitie , great or small growing vpon a man. And if so , then the text makes as much against you as vs. For first , you aneale not all such persons as are infirm , but only such as you suppose to be desperately sicke , sick vnto death . Secondly , you send not Presbiters , Priests : but any one bold Priest to anoint them , and pray ouer them . Thirdly , you intend principally in anealing them , the forgiuenesse of sinnes : whereas by the text is principally intended , the curing of them of their infirmities . Which is so plaine that a Cardinall of your owne renounceth this text as not making for you . Pa. What Cardinall is that ? Prot. z Caietan , whose wordes these are : Nec ex verbis , nec ex effectu verba haec loquuntur de sacramentali vnctione extreme vnctionis : sed mag is de vnctione quam instituit Dominus Iesus in Euangelio à discipulis exercendam in agr●tis . Textus enim non dicit : Infirmatur quis in vobis ad mortem sed absolute , infirmatur quis . Et effectam dicit , infirmi alleuiationem : & de remissione peccatorum non loquitur nisi conditionaliter : quum extrema vnctio non nisi prope articulum mortis datur . Et directe ( vt eius forma sona●● tendi● ad remissionem peccatorum : praeter hoc quod Iacobus ad vnum agrum multes presbyteros tum orantes , tum vngentes mand●t vocari , quod ab extrema vnctionis rit● alienum est . Pa. But is not that a plaine text for proofe of satisfaction , which is alledged by a Doctor Harding , out of 2 Cor. 7. 1. Prot. What are the words ? Pa. Seeing then wee haue these promises dearely beloued , let vs clense our selues from all filthinesse of the flesh and spirit , making perfect our satisfaction in the feare of God. Prot. These are plaine words I promise you . But I doe not remember that I euer read such words , either in the Greeke , or in any translation . Your Doctor ( I beleeue ) hath shewed a piece of cunning , and chopt in the word satisfaction , for sanctification , and quite altered the Apostles meaning . Pa. God forbid he should haue dealt so naughtily : But what say you to the text alledged by b Cardinal Hosius out of Rom. 6. 19. for the same doctrine of Satisfaction . Is it not pregnant to his purpose ? Prot. How cites he it ? Pa. Exhibeamus membra nostra seruire iustitiae in satisfactionem . Let vs exhibit our members to serue iustice vnto satisfaction . Prot. In good earnest this is a plaine text : but it is none of Saint Pauls . It is one of your Cardinalls owne making . As Harding in the former , so your Cardinall in this hath chopt in the word satisfaction , for sanctification , and made a proposition of his owne , different from S. Pauls : I wish it were no Argument of their sanctification to deale so falsly with the Scriptures : they had need to make satisfaction ( though not to God , because they cannot , ) yet to his Church for such bad dealing . Pa. But are there not expresse words for the supremacy of S. Peter , Matt. 16. where we read thus : Thou art a rocke , and vpon this rocke will I build my Church . M. Walsingham saith . That the Author of the answere to M. Charks booke giues this for one instance , in way of prouing that expresse Scripture is for vs. Prot. I know no such text in S. Matthew , as ; Thou art a Rock — I finde there , Thou art Peter , and vpon this rocke I will build my Church : but , Thou art a rocke , and vpon this rocke I will build my Church , is not in any booke , nor in any Bible that I haue seene . Pa. Are these words ; d Dies prima erit sancta & septima eadem Religione venerabiles , The first day shal be holy , and the seuenth day with like religion shall be venerable : wherby e Cardinall Bellarmine would proue , That euery holy thing is to bee religiously worshipped : in your Bible mee thinkes they are plaine to proue his purpose . Prot. Yea , but those are not in my Bible : nor in yours , I thinke , your false Cardinall hath most irreligiously chopt in a word religiously in the Text : make search , and trust me worse another time if it be not so . Pa. I will , I warrant you . In the meane let mee heare what plaine Text ▪ you can alledge for proofe of your opinions . Prot. Content : Doe not these words in Deutronomy 4. 15 , 16 : Take heed vnto your selues , for yee saw no Image in the day that the Lord spake vnto you in Hereb — that yee corrupt not your selues , and make you a grauen Image , &c. plainely proue , That the Scriptures forbid the representing of God by any Image ? And yet doe not yee represent God the Father by the Image of an old man ? and the a most of you maintaine , That hee may lawfully be represented in such an Image ? Pa. I confesse with b Vasquez , That in the words you cite , planè indicat Scriptura , &c. The Scripture speakes plainely , that God did forbid the Iewes to represent him by any Image . But you must know , that c Licet in lege veteri prohibitae fuissent lege d●u●na imagines visibiles , nedum ipsius Dei , sed qu rumcunque sanctorum hominum , nec de post in Scripturis siue veteris siue Noui Testamenti concessa licentia eius faciendi aut fabricandi reperiatur ; nihilominus Ecclesia Catholica edocta à spiritu sancto , nedum permisit , imo statuit & ordinauit , vt venerabiles Imagines Christi , glori●sissimae suae matris , & caeterorum sanctorum fierent , &c. Though in old time the visible Images of God , yea , and of his Saints , were forbidden by the Law of God : and no libertie granted since , either in the Old or New Testament to make any such : yet the Church , which is taught of God , hath not onely permitted , but decreed and ordained , That the Images of Christ , and his blessed Mother the Virgin Mary , and the rest of the Saints may bee made for sundry good purposes . Prot. What ? dare you say , The Church hath decreed contrary to that which God commanded in holy Scripture ? If so , you must needs grant , That the Scripture in this is for vs , and against you . The pretended Church , not the Scripture , is for you onely . Wherefore to goe on . The Scriptures forbid expresly , The adoring or seruing of any similitude or Image , Exod. 20. 4. yet you d teach , That Similitudes ( Images of Christ and his Saints ) may be adored and serued . Pa. I confesse with e Vasquez here also , That the Law giuen to the Iewes forbad , Non solum cultum Idol●latri● , sed quamuis adorationem & vsum imaginum : Not onely that adoration and seruice which was due to God ; but all manner of adoration and seruing Images . But the case is now altered . Prot. Yet in the maine it appeares , That in this the Scripture is for vs also . And is not Exod. 21. 14. so too , wherin we find an expresse commandement , binding vs to take the wilful Murtherer from Gods Altar , that he may die : seeing you haue sanctuaries out of which no malefactor , no murtherer , may bee taken that iudgement may passe on him ? Pa. I confesse with f Polidore Virgil , Sunt in orbe nostro Christiano passim Asyla , qua non in insidias timentibus , sed quibusuis sontibus etiam Maie statis reis patent . There are many sanctuaries amongst vs , which are receptacles not onely for such as are afraid of mischiefe towardes themselues , but to all malefactors , euen to Traytors . And I for my part confesse further with him , g Quod templa nostra vbique gen●ium istiusmedi sceleratis hominibus instar Asylorum sunt , & id contra quam Moses constituer at , Exodus 21. That our Churches in all places serue for sanctuaries to all manner of wicked persons , though God by Moses did forbid the same , Exod. 21. To tel you truely , I thinke it is plaine , that Nihil immunitatis sac●r prestaret locus , The holinesse of the place should not priuiledge wilfull murtherers : though it be to true which h Hieronimus ab Olea stro writes , nūc sacra loca homicidarum & id genus peccatorum , speluncae factae sunt : Holy places at this day are made refuges for murtherers , and such like wicked persons . Prot. Well then , the Scripture in this is ours ▪ and so I doubt not , you will confesse , that Scripture is , wherein the Stewes and Brothel houses are expresly condemned , viz. Deut. 23. 17. for they are tolerated i and defended by you . Pa. I know they are tolerated in some Catholike Countries , and defended by some Catholikes . But I am of k Nauarrus minde , Magis expediret non permittere : It were better they were not tolerated . I thinke l Espenceus had iust cause to say , Huius permissionis nos non semel pudurt , Christianam scilicet Remp. eo carere non posse , quod tandiu , hoc est , annis plus 1500. non admisit M●saica . I haue beene often ashamed to thinke of the toleration for Stewes : That the Christian Common-wealth should not be able to stand without admission of that which the Common-wealth of Israel by the space of 1500. yeeres and vpward , would neuer admit of . What other instance haue you ? Prot. The Scriptures forbid expresly , The marrying of a mans Aunt ; and of a Brothers wife ; Leuit . 18. v. 14. & 16. Yet you approue the Nephewes marrying his Aunt : and of any mans marrying his Brothers wife , if the parties haue your Popes dispensation . Doe you thinke that your Popes dispensations will stand good against the Scriptures ? Pa. Yea ; in things forbid● 〈◊〉 positiue , proprio Iudaeorum : By some positi●e Law peculiar to the Iewes : though not in things forbidden , iure naturae , by the law of Nature . Now these kinds of marriages were forbidden , not by the law of Nature , but by a positiue law peculiar to the Iewes , as you may see in m Card●nall Bellarmine . Prot. These marriages were forbidden by the law of Nature , and not by a positiue law peculiar to the Iewes : for the Heathen , who liued in Canaan before the Iewes , and were not punishable for breaking of positiue lawes peculiar to the Iewes , but for breaking of the lawes of nature ; by these , and such like marriages defiled the Land ▪ and for such marriages the Land did spue them out , as you may see , Leuit. 18. 27 , 28. and of which you may read more in your learned Frier Hieronimus ab Oleastro Exposit ad literam in Leuit. 18. Wherefore to proceed . In the Scriptures it is expresly written , That a man cannot lay his hand vpon the Lords anointed and be guiltlesse , 1. Sam. 26. 9. Yet n you teach contrary . In o Scriptures we read expresly , That a Prince deposed euen the high Priest : but no where that a Priest deposed a lawfull Prince . Yet by your p I●suiticall Religion , A Pope may depose a lawfull Prince : but a Prince may not depose a Priest . The Scriptures require expresly , That they who vow , should vow vnto the Lord , Psal . 76. 11. and testifie as expresly . That all the vowes recorded in them were made vnto the Lord : insomuch that your q Cardinall Bellarmine was forced to confesse , Cum scriberentur Scripture Sancta , nondum coeperat vsus vouendi sanctis , When the Scriptures were written , it was not the vse to vow to Saints . Yet you doe ordinarily vow to Saints , and take vpon you the Iustifying of vowes to Saints . The Scriptures require expresly , That when men pray , they should pray vnto the Lord , Psalme 50. 51. Matt. 6. 9. and testifie as expresly , That all the prayers of holy men recorded in them were made vnto the Lord : insomuch that some of your greatest r Clerks confesse , Orationes esse ad sanct●s faciendas , neque expressè , neque impressè , & inuolutè sacra liter● docent . The holy Scriptures neither teach expresly , nor impliedly , that prayers may bee made to Saints . Yet ſ you do ordinarily pray to Saints , and iustifie your practise of praying to Saints . The Scriptures require expresly , That men should beleeue in God , 2 Chro. 20. 20. and as expresly commend them who beleeue in God , 1 Pet. 1. 8. yet t you of later yeeres haue begun to teach , That wee may beleeue in men . Pa. Why say you , That of later yeeres , we haue begun to teach , That men may beleeue in men : Did not our Church teach alwaies so ? Prot. No : fiue or sixe hundred yeeres agoe such doctrine went not for currant in your Church ; for when u the Waldensians in a Councell holden at Rome , vnder Alexander the third , were asked by one Gualter Mape , whether they beleeued in the Mother of Christ : they answered , that they did so , Ab omnibus sunt multiplici clamore derisi . They were laught to scorne by the Pope and all the Councell . Which shewes that the doctrine of beleeuing in Saints , was then a ridiculous doctrine euen in your Church . The Scripture requires expresly , That men should trust in God , Psal . 115. 9 , 10 , 11. and as expresly curseth them who trust in man , Ierem. 17. 5. yet you like well , that men should trust in men : else would you burne the Virgin Maries Psalter made by Bonauenture , x in which there is so often mention of trusting in our Ladie , as hereafter I shall shew you . The Scriptures teach expresly , That sacrifices are due to God onely , Exod. 22. 20. and testifie as expresly , That holy men did sacrifice to God onely . Yet y you do sacrifice to Images ; for you burne Incense to them . Pa. I confesse we burne Incense to Images : but I deny , that that is to sacrifice to them . Prot. They who burnt Incense to any thing , but God , are z reproued in the Old Testament , euen they a who burnt Incense to the Brazen Serpent , though the Serpent was a figure of Christ : And it belonged to the Priest only to burn Incense . Which argues , That to burne Incense , was to sacrifice in old time ; and that you in burning Incense to Images , doe sacrifice vnto them . Pa. b To burne Incense was a sacrifice in old time , but so it is not now ; for wee see such as are no Priests burne it in our Churches . Prot. So c some who were no Priests tooke vpon them to burne Incense in the old Law. And therefore , if because it is burned now by them who are no Priests , it followes : Ergo , it is no sacrifice now . Surely by the same reason we must deny , that it was a sacrifice in old time . But see I pray you , at leasure , how fully this foolery is discouered by d D. Rainolds , and let vs proceed . In the Scripture Priests are expresly forbidden to shaue their heads , Ezech. 44. 20. yet f the Religious sort among you must haue their heads shauen . In the Scripture it is expresly written , Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God , and him onely shalt thou serue , Matt. 4. 10. Yet g you teach , That a man may worship Hee Saints , and Shee Saints : yea Relikes , besides the Lord his God. In the Scriptures it is expresly written , h When yee pray vse no vaine repititions . Yet i you haue appointed a forme of praier vpon the Beads : in which the Aue Mary is to be said one hundred and fiftie times , and the Pater Noster fifteene , and the Creed thrice . Besides , since that you haue set vs out a Iesus Psalter , in which there is a forme of praier , wherein fifteen such petitions as this , Iesu , Iesu , Iesu , giue mee here my purgatory , are to bee repeated ten times , which makes in all one hundred and fiftie petitions , in which the name of Iesus is repeated foure hundred and fiftie times : which argue yee allow of vaine repetitions . In the Scriptures it is expresly written , k That in vaine they worship God , who teach for doctrines mens commandements . Yet l you , ouer and besides the Commandements of God , haue written others ; which some of you call the commandements of the Church : some commandements of the Canon law ; which are at fewest , fiue ; if not sixe : some say , Ten , euen iust as many as those of Gods ; which you vrge more strictly then the Commandements of God : for , Grauius plectitur contra vnum Papae decretum , quā delinquens contra diuinum praeceptum & Euan geltum : Hee that offends against the Popes Law , is more grieuously punished , then he who offends against Gods Law and the Gospel , saith m Gerson . In the Scripture it is expresly written , That whosoeuer shall put away his wife , except it bee for whoredome , and marries another , commits adultery , Matt. 19. 9. Yet n your Alexander the sixt , consented that Lewis the twelfth of France , should put away his wife , because shee was barren and deformed ; & marry Anne , the wife to Lewis the eleuenth , his predecessour . And your o Pope Coelestine the third , set forth a Decree , That when , of married persons , the one falleth into heresie , the marriage is dissolued , and the Catholike partie is free to marrie againe . In the Scriptures it is expresly written , p That our Sauiour after his Resurrection appeared first to Mary Magdalen : yet many of you say , Wee must beleeue he first appeared to his Mother Mary . Pa. True : for q Bernardinus de Bustis , hauing noted , That our Sauiour after his Resurrection appeared first vnto his Mother , addes : Ft hanc opinionem tenet sancta Mater Ecclesia . And this is the opinion of our holy Mother the Church . And r Baronius falling to speake of the same point , Vetus traditio per manus maiorum , ac per subsequentia secula ad posteros dilapsa testatur Christum dominum nostrum apparuisse pr●mum omnium sanctissimae genetrici Mariae : quod nemo pius puto , neg ar it . It is , saith hee , an ancient tradition of our Ancestors , which is come to vs from hand to hand , that our Sauiour Christ appeared first to his most holy Mother Mary , and I thinke no godly man will deny it . Prot. In the Scripture it is expresly written , That ſ hee who blasphemeth against the holy Ghost shall neuer bee forgiuen : Yet t you teach , That blasphemy against the holy Ghost may bee forgiuen . In the Scripture we read expresly , That S. Iohn was the disciple whom Iesus loued , Ioh. 13. 23. compared with Chap. 21. 20. & 24. And yet you will needs it was Saint Peter whom Iesus loued most intirely . In the Scripture wee read expresly , That when Cornelius met S. Peter , and fell at his feete to adore him : S. Peter reproued him for it . Act. 10. 25 , 26. Yet your Ps●udo-Peters are so farre from refusing adoration when it is offered , that u some of them haue presented themselues to the people that they might be adored . In the Scripture it is expresly written , That our Sauiour speaking of the Sacramentall Cup , said : Drinke yee all of this , Matth. 26. 27. Yet , x you say ; All need not drinke thereof . Yea , yee say , All shall not drinke thereof : Patris & Primitiua Ecclesia populum a Commun●one Calicis non prohibebant , nos arcemus , &c. The Fathers in the Primitiue Church did not forbid the people to drinke of the Cup , but we driue them from it , saith y Aeneas Syluius . That which was the Sacramentall Cup , after the words of Consecration in the Scripture , is expresly called , The fruit of the Vine , Matth. 26. 29. Yet yee say , That after words of Consecration vttered , it is not the fruit of the Vine , Wine ; which is in the Sacramentall Cup , but blood . In the Scripture it is expresly written , That the other element deliuered by our Sauiour Christ to his Apostles , at the celebration of the Communion was Bread : for so it is z called after the words of Consecration vttered , as well as before : Yet ye say , That after the words of Consecration vttered , it is not Bread , which is deliuered to the Communicants . In the Scriptures wee read expresly , That S. Paul in nothing was inferiour to the chiefe Apostles , 1 Cor. 12. 11. Yet a ye push at it when we tell you , S. Paul was equall to Peter in power . In the Scriptures we read expresly , That a man is iustified by faith , without the works of the Law , Rom. 3. 28. Yet b ye say , Workes iustifie . In the Scripture we read expresly , That as ●y one man , sinne entred into the world , and death by sinne ▪ so death went ouer all men , in whom all men haue sinned , Rom. 5. 12. Yet c yee say , The Virgin Mary neuer sinned . In the Scriptures , Saint Paul speaking of Concupiscence , in expresse termes calls it sinne , Rom. 6. 12. as you your selues confesse : Yet yee deny Concupiscence is sin : and d tell vs soberly , that Apostolus Concupiscentiam peccatum vota● , at non lice● nobis it a loq●● : Though the Apostle calls it sinne , yet we may not call it so . In the Scriptures we read expresly , That whatsoeuer is not of faith is sin , Rom. 14. 23. Yet e yee teach , That many actions done by Infidels are not finne . In the Scriptures it is expresly written , That if any Brother haue a wife that beleeueth not , if she be content to dwell with him , hee should not forsake her : and if any woman haue an vnbeleeuing husband , who is content to dwell with her , shee should not forsake him . 1 Cor 7. 12 , 13. Yet yee teach , That a beleeuing brother may put away his vnbeleeuing wife though she be content to dwell with him : and a beleeuing woman , may put away her vnbeleeuing husband , though he be content to dwell with her : Yea , ye teach , That the vnbeleeuing partie may not continue with the vnbeleeuing . They must part companie . Pa. Indeed I read in f Binnius , that Licet in principie nascentis Ecclesi● erat licitum post susceptam sidem virum fidelem ab vxore infideli non discedere vel contra , sed eandem in domo & commerci● manere vt constat ex Paulo : 1 Cor. 7. propter spem conuersionis alterius : tamen ab hinc 800. annis Ecclesia contrarium pr●cepit , si●que lege , consuetudine , & vsu introductum est vt fidelis non maneat cum in●i●eli , Though in the Prime age of the Church it was lawfull for the beleeuer to continue in the same house and fellowship with the vnbeleeuer , & not to make a separation , in hope the beleeuing partie might conuert the vnbeleeuing : yet the Church about eight hundred yeares agoe gaue commandement to the contrary . So that now partly by vertue of a law , partly by custome , it is generally receiued , That the beleeuing partie may not continue with the vnbeleeuing . And to confesse the whole truth , g I read that Father Gaspar in India hauing baptized an honourable Indian Ladie , when her husband made great meanes to haue her againe , being desired to deliuer his opinion in a Councell held about that matter , answered roundly : That they ought not to giue holy things to dogs , nor the persons of such as praise God vnto beasts . Wherevpon it was concluded , Her husband should not haue her againe . Shee should bee married to another . Pro. In the Scripture it is expresly written , Defraud not one another , except it bee with consent for a time , that you may giue your selues to Fasting and Praier , 1 Cor. 7. 5. Yet ye teach , A married man may goe in pilgrimage , euen to Ierusalem , without his wiues consent . Pa. I grant h Innocentius the third decreed so vpon a speciall occasion : but I know not whether that Decree stand in force now . But proceed . Pro. In the Scripture it is expresly written , That he who cannot abstaine should marrie , because it is better to marrie then to burne , 1 Cor. 7. 9. Yet i yee teach , That some such , as your Priests and Monkes may not marrie though they burne . In the Scripture it is expresly written , That it is a shame for a woman to bee shauen , 1 Cor. 11. 6. Yet your k Nunnes are shorne . In the Scripture it is expresly written , That Christians should praise God in their assenblies , by singing , Coloss . 3. 16. Yet ye will not allow them to sing in their assemblies . And this is confessed by your l Binnius : for , Vt ●ideles in suis conuentibus Psalmis & hymnis , alternatim corde simul & ore decan ▪ at is Deum landent a Paulo ad Coloss . cap. 3. & ad Eph. cap. 5. praeceptum esse fat●mur . Sed dum olim vnà cum clericis etiam popolus promiscuè cantare● , imper itiâ Canentium aliquando accidebat , vt ij , quorum vox inculta erat , aut absona Harmonicum illum Ecclesiastic● dignitati congruentem concentum planè corrumperent . Ad bo● ergo incommodum a cantu religioso tollendum Ecclesiast . institut . hisce optimè prouisum est , ne praeter cert●s ad hoc opus ascr●ptes al ij in Ecclesia psallerent . Wee confesse ( saith he ) Saint Paul commanded Christians to sing in their assemblies : but because it fell out , that some who had no skill in singing , sung with other who had skill , they marred the Musicke , it was very well prouided by Ecclesiasticall Institutions , That onely certaine Singing men and Quoristers should sing in Church assemblies . In the Scripture wee read expresly , That praiers should be conceiued in knowne languages , 1. Cor. 14. Yet ye like not of that . m A Parisian Doctor tells vs , Et si Apostolus linguâ intellect â preces velit celebrari , tamen sanctam Ecclesiam iustissimis de causis contra statuisse , That though the Apostle thought good praier should bee in knowne languages ; yet your Church vpon good reason hath decreed the contrarie . In the Scripture wee read expresly , That the vnlearned should say , Amen , at the end of praiers , 1 Cor. 14. 16. which they did euen , Ab initio nascentis Ecclesiae , from the Apostles time , as n Dorantes conconfesseth : Yet by your Religion , The Clerke of the Parish only is to say Amen , at the end of praiers . In the Scripture it is expresly written , That he is cursed who abideth not in all things which are written in the Law to doe them , Gal. 3. 10. Yet o yee teaching , That some sinnes are pardonable of their owne nature , must needs bee thought to teach by necessarie consequence , That euerie such man is not cursed . In the Scripture it is expresly written , Euery man shall beare his owne burthen , Galat. 6. 5. Yet yee teach , That one man may beare anothers burthen : for p if one be enioined to fast , in part of Penance : another may fast for him . In the Scripture it is expresly written , That the Mediator betweene God and man is one , and he is Christ Iesus , 1 Tim. 2. 5. Yet yee generally teach , That there are many mediators betweene God and man , moe then Christ Iesus . Pa. That is our generall doctrine , I grant : Yet there are among vs who teach , q Sanctos Angelos & homines non dicendos esse mediatores Dei & hominum , sed potius mediatores ad mediatorem : The holy Men and Angells are not to bee reputed mediators betweene God and man , but rather mediators betweene the Mediator : Yea some of vs simply denie that Saints be Mediators : Vniuer salis Ecclesia San●tos colit , sed non vt mediatores , The Catholike Church worshippeth Saints , but not as Mediators , ●aith r Viruesius . Prot. That doctrine is as false as the other , but it sufficeth mee that your ordinarie doctrine is proued to be contrarie to expresse Scripture . I will passe to another instance . By expresse Scripture married men may be made Bishops , 1 Tim. 3. 2. Yet ſ yee teach , Married men may not be made Bishops . By expresse Scripture , they bee made Bishops who haue children , 1 Tim. 3 4. Yet t your Clemens the eighth , would admit none to be Bishops who had children ; though some of his predecessors did otherwise , yet his practise was according to your learning : For in u your Canon Law , Pope Pelagius giuing one direction what manner of man hee should chuse for a Bishop , bids him looke vnto it , Nec vxorem habeat , nec filios : Hee neither haue wife nor children . Whereof some of you giue this reason , x Quia filius est Argumentum ambulans super terram de incontinentia patris : Because children are aprant ambling Arguments of the Incontinencie of their fathers . By expresse Scripture they are condemned who forbid marriage , 1 Tim. 4. 3. Yet yee doe so : for yee will not suffer Priests to marry . Pa. y They who forbid marriage as vnlawfull , such as the Manichees , are condemned : but not we , who only forbid some sorts of men to marry . Prot. The z Manicheis did not forbid all men to marry ; but onely their Elect , such as your Priests and Monkes . And therefore if the Manicheis bee hereby condemned ; why not yee also ? In the Scriptures wee read expresly , That if any who beleeueth not , call a Christian to a feast , the Christian should cate of whatsoeuer is set before him , asking no question for conscience sake ; 1 Corinth . 10. 27. Yet if one of you Papists bee bidden to a feast by a Protestant ( of whom you make no more esteeme , then of one who beleeueth not ) you will not eate of whatsoeuer is set before you . By expresse Scripture they are condemned , who command men to abstaine from meats : Yet so doe you Papists . b Qui gustauit ouum , trahitur in carcerem : cogitur que de haeresi causam dicere : qui totam diem Dominicam vacat temulentiae , scortis , & aleae , audit bellus home : He who eates an egge on a fasting day is committed to prison , and suspected for an Hereticke : Hee who sits at the Ale-house all the Lords day , and giues himselfe to whoring , and dicing , is counted a good man and a true . In the c Scripture wee read expresly , That the Lord laid vpon him ( viz Christ ) the iniquitie of vs all : and that it was d Christ , who suffered for our sinnes : and , e bare them in his body on the tree : so that , by his stripes we are healed . Yet you f teach , That satisfaciendo patimur pro peccatis , By satisfactory works we must suffer for our sinnes : We , as well as Hee ; Not hee only . In the Scripture we read expresly , h That our Sauiour Christ did but offer himselfe once : And yet you i say , That in precise manner hee offered himselfe twice . Once at his last Supper ; and againe , vpon the Crosse . Pa. Some of vs say so indeed : k But there was a hot contention about it in the Councell at Trent : a good sort maintaining resolutely , That he did not offer himselfe at the last Supper : Of which number that famous Mussus was one , l who was a Preacher at twelue yeeres old , with whom all Italy was in admiration . But say on . In the Scripture wee read expresly , m That our Sauiour was not to offer himselfe often : Yet n you teach , That he offered himselfe daily . In the Scripture wee read expresly , o That if Christ be often offered , hee must often suffer . But you deny , that hee suffers often , though you grant he is often offered . In the Scripture we read expresly , p That without shedding of blood there is no remission of sins . Yet q you teach ▪ That your Masse is a propitiatorie sacrifice for sin ; though you acknowledge it an vnbloody sacrifice . In the Scripture it is expresly written , r That Marriage is honourable among all : And yet ſ you say , Marriage of Priests is the worst sort of incontinency . In the Scripture we read expresly , t That in many things wee sinne all : Yet u you say , He who is iustified , Legem omnino implet , Keepes the Law wholly . In the Scripture we read expresly , x That they are blessed who die in the Lord hereafter , for they rest from their labours : Yet y you teach , That many of those that die in the Lord goe to Purgatory : where their labour is greater then they euer vnderwent in this world . To be briefe : In the Scripture we read expresly , That Christ is z the Head , and a Spouse of the Church . Yet b you tell vs , The Pope is Head , and Spouse of the Church . In the Scripture wee read expresly , c That it is the blood of Christ which clenseth vs from all sin : and yet you tell vs , That Holy-water , Holy-bread , Bishops ▪ blessing , and such like will clense vs from many sinnes . In the Scriptures we read expresly of two places appointed for Soules after this life , Heauen , and Hell. And f yet you tell vs , there are foure places : Heauen , Hell , Purgatory , and Limbus puerorum ; yea , and perhaps g a fift differing from all these . By all which doe not you see how plaine , and how plentifull the Scriptures are which make for vs , and against you in matters controuersed ? Doe not you see h his falshood , who said ; The Catholikes follow the Bible , but the Protestants force the Bible to follow them ? Pa. I see you huddle vp one Scripture in the neck of another readily : i But it hath beene the propertie of all Heretickes to make no bones of Scripture , but prodigally to spend them , and to lauish them out to proue thereby their heresies , were they neuer so fantasticall . k Vincentius Lyrinensis witnesseth , That Heretickes flie through euery volume of the heauenly Law ; and that they dye and colour almost euerie Page in their Bookes with sentences of the Old and New Testament . Pro. And do not you so too , I pray ? Are there not many Pages in many Books of yours , which are died & coloured with sentences of the Old and New Testament ? Is not your Canisius Catechisme as full of Texts of the Old and New Testament , as any Heretickes ? Is not your Summarie of Controuersies , made by W. C. and published , A. 1623. and your l Gagge of the New Gospel , published ● . 1622. dyed with sentences out of Scripture ? Pa. Yes : but Heretickes insist vpon Scriptures only , as S. Austine witnesseth ; whereas our Bookes are full of other testimonies out of Fathers and Councells . Prot. Yea : but it is not true that Hereticks insisted vpon Scripture only ; for the most notorious Hereticks that euer were , haue beene as confident that the Fathers were on their side , as you are confident they are on your side . The most notorious Hereticks haue insisted much vpon the Fathers . The Samosatenians , who denied the Godhead of Christ , bragd , Maiores omnes etiam ipsos Apostolos ea sensisse ac docuisse quae ipsi nunc dicunt seruatamque esse predicationis veritatem vsque ad tempora Victoris qui 13. à Petro Romanorum Episcopus fuit . All their predecessours , euen the Apostles themselues thought as they thought , and that the truth of their doctrine continued till Victors time , who was the thirteenth Bishop of Rome after S. Peter . Dioscorus Bishop of Alexandria , who denied the two Natures of Christs cried out in the Councell at Chalcedon , Ego testimonia habeo sanctorum patrum Athanasij , Gregorij , Cyrilli in multis locis ; Ego cum patribus eijcior , ego defendo patrum dogmata , non transgredior in alique , & horum testimonia non simpliciter ne● transitorie , sea in libris habeo . I haue the testimonies of the holy Fathers , Athanasius , Gregories , Cyrils , and that in many places ; I am condemned with the Fathers ; it is I who defend the Fathers opinions , I doe not swerue one Iod from them , I haue their testimonies not by hearsay , and at second hand , but in their owne Bookes . The Nestorians , who held many heresies , at the Councell of Ephesus , made this protestation . Nos in sanctorum patrum qui apud Nic●nam conuenerant caeterorumque qui post illos in Ecclesia claruerunt , Eust achij Antiocheni , Basilij Caesariensis , Gregorij , ●oannis , Athanasij , Theophili , Damasi Romani , Ambrosij Mediolanensis , reliquorum que qui cum memoratis consentiunt doctrina perseuer amus pijsque illorum vestig ijs insistimus : quippe qui Euangel●cam Apostolicamque & Propheticam doctrinam plenè assecuti exact am Oxthedoxae fidei Rogulam nobis tradiderunt : quam doctrinam & nos inconcussam inflexamque retinere satagimus , &c. We maintaine the doctrine which the holy Fathers assembled at Nice , and others who were men of fame in the Church since that time maintained . Such as Eustac●ius of Antioch , Basil of Caesarea , Gregory , Iohn , Athanasius , Theophilus , Damasus of Rome , Ambrose of Millain , and the like . Wee tread in their most holy steps , who hauing fully attained to the knowledge of the Gospel , and of the Apostles , and of the Prophets , haue left vs an exact rule to follow , which wee desire also to leaue vnto our posterities , &c. Certaine Heretickes in a Councell held vnder Martin 1. cried out , Haec pietatis dog mata tradiderunt nobis qui ab initio praesentialiter viderunt , vel Ministri verbi facti sunt , eorumque discipuli , & successores , & sequentes à Deo inspiratae Ecclestae doctores , &c. These religious opinions were deliuered vnto vs , by such as were made Ministers of the Word at the beginning , and by their disciples and successors , and since by the Doctors of the Church , who were illuminated by God , &c. And this is so plaine that q Cope confesseth it in these words : Veteres haeretici cum patres ipsis apertissimè aduer sarentur cos tamen à se stare magna contention● clamabant : The ancient Hereticks cried out with open mouth , that the Fathers made for them , though indeed the Fathers were flat against them . And if Copes acknowledgement will not satisfie you , you may find as much acknowledged by Baronius , Annal To. 5. An. 431. Nu. 170. Pa. But what say you to Saint Anstine , whom I alledged as witnessing , That Hereticks insist vpon Scripture only ? Prot. I say it is not credible that Saint Austin euer said so , or thought so ; for he himselfe witnesseth , That Hereticks haue insisted vpon Visions and Miracles , and Successions , and Councells , and Fathers , as well as vpon Scripture . That Heretickes insisted vpon Visions , Saint Austin witnesseth , De vnitate Ecclesiae Cap. 16. That Hereticks haue insisted vpon Miracles , Saint Austin witnesseth , Tract . 13. in Ioh. That they haue insisted vpon Succession , S. Austin witnesseth Epistola 165. And that Maximini●s the Arian insisted vpon the Councell at Arminium . That the Donatists insisted vpon S. Cyprian , and other Fathers concurring in opinion with him . That Pelagius insisted vpon Hilary , and Ambrose , and Chrysostome , and Sixtus Bishop of Rome , and Ierome , and vpon some passages of S. Austin we read in S. Austin . Now except hee would contradict himselfe , how can it bee that hee , who witnesseth these things , should witnesse also , That Hereticks insisted vpon Scripture only ? Pa. It seemes by your speech , That Hereticks vsed all kind of arguments in defence of themselues , and that they insisted vpon Fathers especially . I could wish you durst refer the hearing of the more waighty differences betweene vs vnto the Fathers . Prot. What reason haue you to feare , that I dare not referre the hearing of the more weightie differences betweene vs vnto the Fathers : it by Fathers you meane the Ancient Fathers , and not your Father Iesuits ? Pa. I feare you dare not make such a reference , because I read in a Cardinall Baronius that , Haeretici nostri temporis sic prouocant ad diuinam scripturam , vt nisi tot syllabis & elementis id ipsum quod profitetur Ecclesia Catholica in ea expressum inueniunt , minimè sibi retinendum esse pertinacissimè reluct antur : nullam vel traditionum , vel sanctorum patrum interpretationum rationem pror sus habentes . The Hereticks of this age ( he meanes such as you ) doe so appeale to Scripture , that except they find therein euen in so many words , whatsoeuer the Catholike Church be●eeueth , they vtterly dislike it : making no reckoning at all of Traditions , or of the expositions of the Fathers . Prot. Your Cardinall is a Cardinall lier . We require no such dunstable plaine proofe out of Scripture for points of Faith , as he lyingly affirmes . Neither doe wee dispise the Fathers : Wee b confesse they were men indued of God with excellent gifts , and brought no small light to the vnderstanding of Scriptures . And much more we say ( saying nothing but what we thinke ) in their commendation . Pa. Why , but I haue heard ( for all your talke ) by others , c That you dispise all the Churches Doctors , and ancient Fathers , That d you make no more account of the Fathers , longer then you can wrest them to serue your turne , then you doe of Beuis of Hampton , or Adam Bel. Yea , I read it e written of such as you , that , Non alio loco reuera sanctos Patres habent quàm que loco Alcoranum Mahometi , & Esopi fabulas : They make no more account of the holy Fathers , then they doe of the Turks Alkaron , or Esops Fables . And , f that it is well knowne to such as heare your Sermons , or be in place to heare you talke boldly and familiarly together among your selues , you are not afraid plainly to confesse , That the Fathers all were Papists . And I am sure you know the man , whose words these are : g The Protestants let not to confesse with Tobith Mathew , That no man can read the Fathers , and beleeue them , and imbrace the New Religion . Prot. I know there are of you Papists , h who confidently auouch , That the old Fathers make against vs in all points : and i that in most matters of Controuersie they are so plainly on your side , that it cannot with any colour bee denied , or called in question . I know there are of you who k write : That in all the Volumes of the Fathers nothing is treated , but what you professe , nothing commended or condemned , but what you commend or condemne ; and that we in our consciences know all Antiquitie to be against vs : Because ( as l they say ) in no one point that they can heare of , will any of vs be tried by the iudgement , and consent of Antiquitie . I know the man , & what became of him ( he was hangd at m Tiburne for Treason ) who first broached that slander on Tobith Mathew , the most reuerend Archbishop of Yorke at this day : who being almost eightie yeeres old , preacheth more Sermons in a yeere , then you can proue haue bin preached by all your Popes since Gregory the great his daies . And I know that that n man vaunted ; Ad Patres si quando licebit accedere , confectum est praelium : tàm sunt nostri quàm Gregorius 13. filiorum Ecclesiae Pater amantissimus . If Controuersies of Religion came once to the decision of the Fathers , all would goe on your side : for the Fathers , were as flat for you , as Gregory the thirteenth , your beloued Pope . Yea , and I know your Lay o Catholikes in their Petition to his Maiestie , suggested : That for one place of a Father euill vnderstood , sometimes falsified , sometimes mutilated , and sometimes wholly corrupted , brought by vs : they could produce a thousand , not by patches and mammocks , as we do : but whole Pages , whole Chapters , whole Bookes , and the vniforme consent of all the ancient Fathers , and Catholike Church . Yet I am of p Scultetus mind , That D. Whitakers spake nothing but the truth , when in his answere to Campian hee auouched , Patres in maximis iudic ijs toti sunt nostri , in leuioribus varij , in minutissimis vestri . The Fathers in mayne Controsies are wholly ours , in the lesser , some ours , some yours , in the least yours , not ours . Yea I am of D. q Raynolds mind , who protesteth that in his opinion , Not one of all the Fathers was a Papist ; especially , considering the very essence of a Papist consisteth in opinion of the Popes Supremacie : and the Popes Supremacie is not allowed by any of the Fathers . Pa. r Why , but you will not deny I am sure , That some of your predecessors , as for example Luther , hath spoken scornfully of the Fathers ▪ Are not these his words , Nihil curo , &c. I care not if a thousand Austins , a thousand Cyprians , a thousand Churches thinke otherwise then I doe . Prot. Luther perswading himselfe that the Word of God made for him in a controuersie which hee handled , by way of supposall , that Austin and Cyprian , &c. thought otherwise ▪ professeth , that hauing the Word with him , he cared not who they were , not how many they were , who were against him . And do you thinke that therein he spake scornfully of the Fathers ? What doe you thinke then of him , who perswading himselfe that some of your Popes made for him , protesteth he would rest more thereon , then vpon thousand Austins , thousand Ieroms , thousand Gregories , Ego vt ingenuè ●atcor plus vnt summo pontificicrederem in his qui fidci mysteria tangunt quā mille Augustinis , Hieronymis , Gregorijs saith your Cornelius Mussus , in his ſ Commentary vpon the Epistle to the Romanes . If it were scornefullnesse in Luther to preferre the Word of God before thousand Austins : doth it not much more argue scornfulnesse in Musse , to prefer an vsurping , most vicious , and vnlettered Pope , before thousand Austins ? t He was a great Clerke in his time , who deliuered this as sound doctrine ; Simplici potius Rustice , & infanti , & Anicul● , magis quàm Pontifici maximo , & mille Episcopis credendum est , si isti contra Euangelium , illi pro Euangelie faciant . We ought rather beleeue a plaine country fellow , or a child , or an old wife , then the Pope , and a thousand Bishops : if the Pope and Bishops speake against the Gospel ; and the others agreeably to the Gospel . To prefer the Word of God before Bishops , is not to scorne Bishops . Pa. Well , shall we then fall to the Fathers , and see what they say ? Prot. Nay , stay a little . And tell me first what hope there is that either you should perswade me , or I perswade you , by Fathers : seeing the one of vs cannot perswade the other to be of his opinion by the Scripture : It is u written , That they who heare not Moses , and the Prophets , will not bee perswaded though one rise from the dead againe . Which makes me feare , that seeing Moses and the Prophets , alledged by me , cannot perswade you , nor the Texts which you alledge out of the same cannot perswade me , we shall lose both our labours in examining what the Fathers haue said about the differences betweene vs : For if men who heare not Moses and the Prophets , will not be perswaded by the dead miraculously raised ; I cannot thinke they will euer be perswaded by the Fathers . Pa. Say you so ? Prot. Yea truly : and I am the more afraid we shall lose our labours in this kind ; because there is as great question betweene vs , about the Fathers , as about the Scriptures : what the meaning of the Fathers is , as vvhat the meaning of the Scriptures is . On vvhose side St. Austin , and St. Ambrose stands , as on whose side St. Paul , and St. Peter stands . The Fathers Writings are subiect to mistakings as vvell as the Scriptures . Arbitror nonnulles in quibusdamlocis libr●rum meorum opinaturos me sensisse , quod non sensi , aut non sensisse quod sensi : I suppose ( saith x St. Austin ) that many by reason of some passages in my Bookes , will conceiue that my meaning is otherwise then it was : or that it vvas not such as it was . And it fell out accordingly . For as y Baronius witnesseth , after St. Austins death , there arose vp diuers , Qui ex eius scriptis male perceptis complures inuexerunt errores , quos S. Aug. nomine & authoritate defendere conabantur . Who mistaking his meaning , broached many errors in his name . Now I doubt not , but you thinke other Fathers Writings are as subiect to mistakings as St. Austins . Pa. That I doe : Yet proue this point ( I pray ) a little more fully . Prot. I will ; and that by examples of ancienter , and later times . In ancient times one Father mistooke the meaning of another . At this time , euen one of you conceiues differently of the meaning of the Fathers , from others of you : some saying , This is the meaning : others saying , not so ; but this is the meaning . Pa. What ancient Father mistooke his fellowes meaning ? Prot. St. Austin mistooke St. Cyprians : for St. Austin thought St. Cyprian had beene of opinion , that Hereticks were within the Church : which ( as your men say ) St. Cyprian did not . Pa. Indeed , I thinke St. Austin mistooke St. Cyprian foulely : for I read in z Bellarmine , that , Cypriani verba nihil tale sonant . S. Cyprians words founded nothing that way . And in a Canus , Ego , vt quemadmodum sentio loquar , non intelligo quid caus● Augustimo fuerit , vt verba Cypriani in eum sensū acceperit , qui mihi sanè tam apparet à Cypriani mente alienus , quam Coelum a terrae natura altenum est ▪ sed aliquando bonus dormitat Homerus . If I may speake my mind freely ; I wonder why S. Austin tooke S. Cyprians words in that meaning ; from which they are as are farre as heauen from earth : but the greatest Clerkes may now and then be taken napping . But what other mistaking doe you read of in old time ? One swallow makes not summer . Prot. Iulianus Bishop of Capna , of quick wit , and good vnderstanding in the Scriptures , as b Gennadius witnesseth , conceiued that Chrysostome did not beleeue Originall sinne was deriued from the fathers vnto the children . Yet c S. Austin was of another mind : S. Austin thought Iulian was deceiued : Iulian mistooke the meaning of S. Chrysostome . d About the yeere 824. there was a great question , Whether Images might be worshipped . The Bishops of France in a meeting at Paris , collected diuers testimonies out of Gregory Nyssen , Basil , Chrysostome , Cyril , Athanasius , Ambrose , Epiphanius , and Stephen Bostron , as they call him , to proue Images might not be worshipped : yet e Hadrian alledgeth the same testimonies , out of the same Fathers , to proue the contrary . viz. That Images might bee worshipped . Pa. May I beleeue you that this is true ? Prot. Yea : for Bellarmine grants it to be true . Plurima testimonia quae summus Pontifex Hadrianus in Epistola illa sua doctissima pro Imaginibus posuit isti rursum allegant qui contra Imagines pugnant . The many testimonies alledged by Pope Hadrian , in that his learned Epistle in defence of Images : these Bishops ( hee meanes the Bishops which met at Paris ) alledge them to disproue Images , f saith Bellarmine . Pa. What instances can you giue me to make it plaine , that learned Catholikes differ about the meaning of the Fathers : for I thought the Fathers had written so plainly , that any man might easily haue conceiued their meaning , and that all ( Catholikes especially ) had vnderstood them alike . Prot. I could load you with instances of your learned Romanists differences about the meaning of the Fathers : but I will giue you only a few , yet such as I thinke verie remarkable . It is a great question among yourselues , Whether the Virgin Mary vvas conceiued in sinne , or no : g some affirming , some denying . Bellarmine is one of them who denies that she was conceiued in sin : and for proofe of his opiniō , he alledgeth Ambrose Ser. 22. in Ps . 118. Yet h Vasquez disputing the question , tho he be of Bellarmines opinion in the maine , professeth : he durst not cite that place of Ambrose , vvhich Bellarmine doth for that purpose . Mitto ex Latinis testimonium Ambrosij , quamuis istud non nulli praeclarum existiment . Mihi enim verba ipsius aliud omnino sonare videntur , &c. I passe ouer the testimony of S. Ambrose , saith he , tho some account of it highly , because in my opinion his words carry quite another meaning . That which Bellarmine thought S. Ambrose ment , Vasquez thought he did not meane . The same i Bellarmine , in prosecuting the same controuersie , alledgeth Anselme , Lib. de concepta virginali & peccato Originali , Cap. 18. Yet k Petrus de Vincentia alledgeth the same words out of the same place vnto the contrary . Bellarmine thought the Virgin Maries immaculate conception to be proued by Anselme . Petrus de Vincentia thought that the Virgin Maries conception in sinne was proued by Anselme . l Bellarmine in the same case alledgeth Austin , and Ierome , as being of his opinion : m Petrus de Vi●centia alledgeth the same Fathers , as being of a contrary opinion . Hildephonsus lib. de virginita●● B. Mariae , is alledged by Petrus de Vincentia , for the Virgins conception in sinne : and yet n he confesseth , that Hildephonsus is alledged by a contrary faction , to proue her freedome from sinne . May not this serue for one instance , to proue that your learned Catholikes differ about the vnderstanding of the Fathers ? Pap. What is your next ? Prot. It is a great Question ( as you know ) betweene vs , and you , Whether Matrimony be a Sacrament in proper sense ? You say it is so . We say , it is not so . For the proofe of your , it is so . o Bellarmine alledgeth Leo 1. in his ninetie two Epistle ; and Chrysostome in his twenty Homily vpon the Ephesians ; and Ambrose vpon the fift to the Eph. and a number of places out of S. Austin . Whereby it is plaine , ( except he write against his owne conscience ) that he conceiued these Fathers held opinion , Matromony was a Sacrament in proper sense : Yet your p Vasquez thinks they did not : for handling that point , Mitto ▪ testimonia Leonis Papae 1. in Epistola 90. aliàs 92. Cap. 4. Chrysostomum Hom. 20. in Epist . ad Eph. & Authorem Comment . in Paulum apud Ambrosium in illud Eph. 5. Sacramentum h●c , &c. qui Matrimonimm Sacramentum seu mysterium appellant : e● quod non loquuntur ipside sacramento propriè , qualia sunt 7. quae in Ecclesia sunt à Christo instituta , &c. sed de Sacramento latiori significatione , pro ut est mysterium & signum coniunctionis Christi cum Ecclesia de qua nunc non disputamus . In quo etiam sensu existimo Aug. ubique Matrimonium Sacramentum appellâsse . I doe not vrge Leo 1. in his 92. Epistle : nor Chrysostomes 20 ▪ Homily vpon the Ephesians , nor the Author of the Commentaries which goe vnder Ambrose his name vpon the Ephesians : tho they call Matrimony a Sacrament : because they speake not of a Sacrament in proper sense , such as are those seuen which Christ ordained in his Church : but of a Sacrament in a larger sense , as it is a mystery , or a signe of the vnion that is between Christ and his Church , of which kind of Sacrament we speake not now . In which kind of meaning I thinke S. Austin continually called Matrimony a Sacrament , saith Vasquez . And in the q Chapter following , treating vpon the same Argument : Postquam singula loca Aug. perlegi & attentè considerani , An. 1588. manifesse deprehendi cum non loqui de Sacramento propriè , pro vt in praesenti loquimur : sed de sacramento latior● significationepro vt est signum vnionis Christi cum Ecclesia , ac proiude indi●●● authoritate ipsi●● in has part●●●●ra haretic●s v●● non debere . After that , in the yeere 1588. I did diligently read & considered of the places in S. Austin , I found it very apparant , that when he called Matrimony a Sacrament , he spake not of a Sacrament in proper sense , but in larger signification ▪ and therefore I thought it not fit to alledge Austins authoritie against the Hereticks in this Controuersie , saith the same man. May not this serue for another instance to proue that your learned Catholikes differ about the vnderstanding of the Fathers ? Pa. What is your third instance ? Prot. It is r questioned partly betweene vs , and you : partly among your selues , what kind of certaintie a man may haue of his saluation : some saying , That faithfull men may attaine to such knowledge of their saluation , that they may rest assured of the forgiuenesse of their sinnes : other saying , not so , except it be by speciall reuelation . Of the former opinion is ● Catharinus , of the later t Bellarmine . Both of them alledge the selfe same Fathers , Greek , and Latine , for the proofe of their seuerall opinions , which argues they conceiued differently of the Fathers meaning . In like manner it is questioned betweene vs and you , Whether the words of Saine Peter , 1 Epist . 3. 19. are to be vnderstood of Christs discension into hell in soule after his death . And your u Rhemists would perswade vs , That S. Austine found himselfe sure that so much was plainly proued therby : yet x Bellarmine confesseth ; Non vult Aug. h●●c locu●● ad Infer●s pertiner● : That S. Austin did not thinke Christs discension into hell was proued thereby . A great question it is euen y amongst your selues , Whether the words of Christ , Ioh. Chap. 6. be to be vnderstood properly of the Sac●ament , or no : Caietan , Iansenius , Hessels , Tapperus , and some others , hold negatiuely : Roffensis , Bell. Maldonate , &c. hold affirmatiuely . Now , Caietan proues his Negatiue , ijs dem modis quibus Roffensis stabiliuit contrarium sententiam authoritate sanctorum & pracipue B. Aug. By the same Arguments that Roffensis proued his affirmatiue , euen by the testimony of the Fathers , especially of S. Austin , as z Tapperus witnesseth . In King Henry the Eighth dayes , there was a great controuersie among your selues , Vtrum ducere relictam 〈◊〉 mortui sine liberis it a sit de iure diuine & naturali prohibitū : vt nullus po●ti●ex super hui●snoodi m●trimonij contract is sine contrahen●is dispensare posset . And the most famous Vniuersities in France and Italy , grounding themselues vpon the Scriptures , and Fathers , were of opinion , That marrying of the brothers wife was so forbidden , that no dispensation could make it lawfull . And to that purpose some learned man made a booke . Now the Fathers , whereon the Vniuersities , and the Author of the booke rested were Origen , Chrysostome , Basil , Hierom , Augustin , Greg. &c. Yet Bellarmine , and the Author of the booke , intituled , Apologia Tumultuaria ▪ &c. alledge the same Fathers to the contrary . I did not thinke the Fathers words had beene so subiect to different constructions . But I must put off the further dispute about the Fathers , till our next meeting , which shal be ( God willing ) erre long , while , God be with you , onely remember ▪ I pray you , that which is written : 1. Tim. 6. 3. 4. and 5. verses , If any man teach otherwise , and consenteth not to the wholesome words of our Lord Iesus Christ , and to the doctrine , which is according to godlinesse . He is puft vp and knoweth nothing , but doteth about questions and strife of wordes , whereof commeth enuie strife , railings , euil surmisings , Froward disputations of men of corrupt mindes and destitute of the truth , which thinke that gaine is godlines : from such separate thy selfe . FINIS . The Errata . pag 5. lin . 8. for with read about . p. 6. l. 19. for by read the case . p. 9. l. 17. threaten for threape . p. 10. l. 6. our for your . in marg . staditas for studites . l. 17. we for yee . p. 15. lm . 9. you say truely for you say not truely ibid. 〈…〉 l. 31. our for your . p. 17 l 10 read● not ▪ what wee can doe . p. 20. l. 14. that read the. pa. 21 l. 25. I will vse , read I will not vse . p. 22. l. 3. yet the , read yet that the. ibid. fit it , read fi●ten . p. 23. l. 14. bold , read bald . ibid. l. 28. effectum , read effectum . p. 25. l. 25. a for the. p. 28. l. 22. for , read of p. 34. marg . Malliensibus , read Mas●il . p. 35. l. 2. was the , read was in the. p. 36. lin 22. eauden , read euden . p. 39. l. 1. Dorantes , read Durantus , p. 42. l. 6. offred read offereth . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A19242-e70 a 2. Cor. 11. 20 b Esay . 9. 16. c Ie● . ●0 . 6● d 2. Pat. 2. 1 ▪ 2 ▪ 3 e Campi●n . rat . 8 f Rhem. Annot at . marg . in Luk 6. 1. & 1. Pet. 3. 19 g Bell. de n●t . i.c. chlib . 4. c. 9. h ibid. i Austin lib. de hares● . 54. k ibid. l ibid. m ibid. n ibid. o ibid. p Idem lib. 1. de funct beatit . Cap. 2. ct 4. q N. D. in his 2. part of 3. conuers chapt . 2. sect . 14. r chapt . 3. sect . 6. 1 ibid. t Rehm . Annot. Heb. 7. 17. u Annot. in Mat. 19. 16. x Annot. in Mark 1. 8. y Annot. in 2. Pet. 1. 15. z Annot. in 2. Pet. 2. 18. a Gagge of the new Gospel . Nu. 16. b Idem . Nu. 26. c Idem . Nu. 27. d Idem Nu. 40. e Idem Nu 46. f Rossaus lib. de iusta Reip. Christ in reges impias ●t haret authoritate cap. 4. Nu. 6. g ibid. h Cope deal 6. c. 21. i See the booke pag. k Campian . rat . 10. l Greg. de valent Analys . fid . Cathol . lib. 5. cap. 1. pag. 18. m Idem lib. 7. Assertio probanda . n Gagge of the new Gospel . preface to the Catholicke Reader . o Discip . de Tēp . ser . 121. p Seo Fox Ac●s & Mon. in Hen. 8. Treatise of the persecution in Scotland . q Apologet. Cap. 1. Notes for div A19242-e1590 a Allen Apology of the Seminaries , c. 5. f. 58 b Campian , rat , 10. c Rock of the Church , Ch. 8. p. 193. d Motiue 48. e Epist. 80. f Teste Espentao Comment . in Tit. c. 1. p. 104. 105. g Apud Hassenmullerum . Hist . Iesuit . ord . cap. ● p. 428. h Conc. 3. de Lazaro ; printed at Basil 1530. i Pighius Hierarch . Eccles . l. 3. ● . 3. & 5. c. 3. Simanea Instit . Cathol . c. 57. nu . 12. k In Arg. lib. de pr●scip● . adu . here . per Tertul. l Not ▪ in Tertul ▪ de pr●scrip . adu ▪ har●t . c. 39. nu . 237. iuxta edit . Pamel . m Moti●s 48. n n Simanea Institut . Cathol . c. 44. nu . 2. & 3. impres . Valissoleti . A. 1552. o Extro . de Maeiori . & obed . Cap. vnā sanctam p Extra de Maeiorit . & obed . Cap s●lita . q Ibid. r Loca supra Citato . ſ Sentron t Ibid. u Roffens . adu . Luth. Act. 16. Eckius in Enchirid . Tit. de Communione sub altera specie . x Bell. 4. de Euch ▪ Cap. 24. y Eckius loco citato . z lib. 2. de Monach. Cap. 35. a Lib. 2. de Minach . Cap. 36. b Staphylus in Apolog. c English Festiual feria 4. post fostum palmarū . d Ledesma de diuin script ▪ quauis lingua non legend . C. 22. e Innocent . 1 . ●●pist . ad E●uperi●● vide Gratian d. 82. proposui●l● . f Bell. l. 1. de sanct , beatit . Cap. 20. g Ibid. h Ibid. i Greg. de valeu●ia de Idol●lat . Chap. 7. k 1. Cor. 6. 4 l Bell. l. 5. Rom. Pont. Cap. 7. m Apol. of the English Sem. fol. 57. o Answer to M. Charkspref . p. 57 * Districtis●imi Monachi . p Ioh. de Polemar . Orat. in Cone Basil apud Binnium 〈◊〉 4. Conc. p. 385. q Teste Azono To. 2. Instit . Moral . lib. 11. Cap. 2. 14. quaritur . r Lib. Conformitat . B. Francise● per Pi saum ●di . Bonon . 1590. l. ● . Fructus . 1. fol. 13. Col. 3. ſ Lib. 1. Fructius fol. 113. Col. 3 t Lib. 1. Fructus 9. fol. 127. Col. 3. u Bee Hyue cap. 3. fol. 93. 94. y Teste Stella de modo Concionandi cap. 6. z Teste Malanthont . Oral . de 〈◊〉 Elequentia . a Preface to his booke of the Sacram. c See Sixt. Senens . Bibl. Sanctae l. 5. Annot. 116. d Theodorus Stadytus Epi. 4. ad Naucratium qua extat . To. 3. Bibl. vel pal . Edit . 3. Col. 216. e Grounds of the New Religion , part . 2. cap. 18. p. 197. f Bulla P●● 4 super forma profess . ●id . Constitut . 30. in Sum. Constitut . Sum. Pontif. a Greg. 9. vsque ad Sixt. 5 g Erislow Motiue 48. h Matt. 26. i Artie . relig . nn . 28 , eait . 1562. k L , Eltensis Episeopus . Res●os . ad Cardinalia Bell. Apologiam . c. 1. pag. 11. l Harding in his g. Article to M. Iewels Challenge fol. 99. m Apud Gratiamd 2. de Consecrat . cap. 42. Ego Berengarius n In 3. part . Tho. superquaest . 75. Artie . 1. agnoscente Ioseph Angles Flores Theolog. Quaest . in 4. sent . q. 4. ae effectis Euch. Art. 1. o Contra Captiuit . Babilon . cap. 10. nu ▪ 2. p Answ . to M. Charks Preface p. 27. q Ibid. r Rainold Confer . Cap. 2. diuis . 2. p. 67. & 68. ſ Ioh. 6. v. 32. t V. 33. u Ioh. 6. v. 35. & 48. x V. 51. y Answ . to M. Charks Preface , p. 27. z Ibid. a Comment in Iam. 2. 24. b Answ . to M. Charks Prefece , pa. 28. c Ibid. * See a learned discourse hereof in the Answere to a challenge made by a Iesuit in Ireland . p. 109. &c. d Answ . to M. Charks Preface , p. 28. e Answ . to M. Charks Preface , p. 28. f Ibid. g Caluin . Iustitut lib. 4. cap. 13 h Lib ▪ 2. de Monach . cap. 15. i Bell. lib. 2. de Monath . cap. 16. k Alfons . de Castro adu . haer . l 14. verba vo●●●● Trauerse in his Answ . to a Popish Treatise written to the Lords of the Council , p 173 m Answ to M. Charks Preface , p. 28. n Ibid. o Answ to M. Charks Preface , p. 28. p Ibid. q Answ . to M. Charks Preface p. 28. r Pref supra ●it . Ibid. t Psal . 2. 11. u Praf . supracit . x Ibid. y See M. Cartwrights Answ , to the Rhem. Matth. 25. 35. z Praf . supra ●it . * See Trauerse Answ . to a Popish Treatise to the Lords of the Councel , p. 267. a Ibid. b Pref. cit . p. 29. c Ibid. d Bristow Motiue 48. e Dowis●s Annotas . vpon Gē . 48 f See marg . Notes on our Bibles vpon Gen. 48. g Athanas . orat . 4. adu . Arianos , p. 260 edit . Comelin . Graecolat . A. 1600. ci●il . l. 3 Thesauri , Nouatian , apud Tertul. de Trinitate c. 15 & 27. h Loco citato . i Answ . to M. Charks Preface , p. 29. and Briflow Motiue 48. k Ibid. l Lib. 1. de sancta . beatit . c. 18. m Answ . to M. Charks Preface , p. 29. n Pref. citas . o Gap. 16. 15. p Matth. 23. q Lib. 2. de verbo Dei c. 12. & l. 5. de Iustif ▪ c. 2. r Bell. l. 5. de Iustif . c. 2. ſ Lib. 10. de Ciuit . d●i cap. 5. t In bunc locum . u a Cor. 5. 9. & Heb. 11. 5. 6. x See Rhem. Annot. in Heb. 13. 16. y Brislow Motiue 48. z Comment in Lic . 2. 14. a Ans . to Iewels pology part . 2. cap. 16. fol. 117. b Confess . Petrikoni● c. 48. de sacrā . p●nit . f. 127 d Exod. 12. 16. e Lib. de Imag. cap. 12. a Bell lib. 2. de Imag. c. 8. b Lib. 2. de Ad●rat . c. 3. d●spu● , 4. nu . 74. c Ioh. Ragusius Oras . habita in Conc. Basil , De Communione sub viraque specie . apud Binnium , To. 4. Conc. p. 297 d Bell. lib. 2. de Imag. c. 12. e Lib. supra cit . c. 2 . ●isp . 4. 〈◊〉 70 f De Inuent . Rerum . l. 3. c. 12. g Ibid. h Annotat ad mores in Exo. 21. i Brer●ley c. 16. sect . 3. of S. Austines Religion . Harding in his Confutation of Iewels Apology k In Manaali c. 17 n. 195. quinto l De Contin●ntia l. 3. c. 4. p. 236. m Lib. 1. de Matrimon c 27. n Ioh. Mariana l. 1. de Regu . c. 6. o 1 King. 2. 27 p Bell. l. 5. de Ro. Pont. c. 27. q Lib. 3. di ▪ culiu sanctis . c. 5. r Bar●e● in 2. 3. The. quast ▪ ● . Art. 10. 2. Con●lus●● ▪ C●l . 269. ſ Bell. l. 1. de sanct . be●●it . ● . 19. t Bell. lib. citat . c. ●0 . Rh●m . Annot . in Ro. 10. 14. u Gualterus Mape lib. de Nugis Cu●●ali●m dist . 1. c. 3. M. S. in Bibl. ●●dl●iana O●●● . x Psal . 10. 1. & 30. 1. & 70. 1. & 124 ▪ 1. y Bell. l. 2. de Imag. c. 17. z Ier. 44. 23. a 2. Ki●g● 18. b Bell. lo●o pr●●ime citat● . c 2 Ch● . 〈◊〉 1● . d De lib. Apoc. praelect . 243. f Rhem. Annot. in 2 Thess , 3. 10. g Rhem , Annot , in Heb. 11. 21. h Matt. 6. 7. i Polid , Virgil de Inuent . rerum l. 5. ● . 9. k Matt. 15. 9. l Vaux in Catech. ● . 3. Bell. in Catech . c. 7. Tabula Xristiana Relig. in Exam. Ordinand . m In 3. parte operum . Tit. de asrections Cordis Consid . 30. n Guicciard in Hist lib. 4. o C. Laudabilem de conuersione sidelium agnoscente Bell. l. 4. de R● . Pont c. 14. p Mark. 16. 9. q To. 3 〈◊〉 Ma●●●● part . 10. se● . 2. de ga●dijs Mariae part . 5. f●l . 347. r Annal. To. 1. ad An. 34 n. 183 ſ Mark. 3. 29. t Bell. l. 2 de Paenitentia , c. 16 u Pius 2. Malliensibus aliquandi●s visendū s● adorandumque praebuit . Pi●olom , Card. ● Papy●nsis in Epist . Card. Seninsi . & Commentar . l. 1. x Suarez in 3. part . Tho q 80. Act. 12. disput . 71. sect . 2. ● 905 y Epist . 130. z ● Cor. 11 , 26 , 27 , 28. a Baron . Annal. To. 1. ad An. 34. nu . 207. b Rhem Annot. 〈…〉 21. c Ehem . 〈…〉 d 〈…〉 e Rhem. Annot. in Ro. 14. 23. f Not in Conc. Yoles . 17. c. 8. To. 3. Conc. part . prior ▪ p. 171. g Inter Epistolas Indicas Scripta● Ormuti● A. 1551 h Cap. ex multa . sect . in ●anto . Extra . de rote & vo●i Redemp . i Rhem. Annot. in 1 Cor. 7. 9. k Rhem Annot. in 2 Thess . 3 10. l Not. in Cont. Laodic . Can. 15. To. 1. Cont p. 293 m Benedictus Montanus in 1 Cor. 14. n De Ritibus Ec●l . Cathol . l. 2. c. 17 . ●u . 2. o Rhem. Annot. in Ro. 1. 32. p Azorius Instit . Moral part 1. l. 7. c. 21. 7. quaritur . q Ioh. Hess●ls pro Inuccas . sanct . c. 5. r 〈◊〉 Juth●●● ▪ d●g●ata Philip-pica 16. p. 206. & 216. ſ Dominicus Soto de Iustitia & ●●re l , 〈◊〉 q. 6. p. 731. t Ioh. Franc. Ieo in Thesauro Fori Eccl. part . 1. c 3. de Elect. Epist . nu . 38. 39. u Dist . 61. Catinensis . x Ioh. Franc. Leo citat . & glossa apud Grat. d. 82 preposuisti verbo 〈◊〉 y Rhem. Annot. 1 Tim. 4. 3. z Austin . Epist . 74. 1 Tim. 4. 3. b Erasm . Schol. in Epist . ad Episcop . Basil . de del●ctu ciborum . nu . 29. c Esay 53. 6. d 1 Pet. 3. 10. e 1 Pet. 2 , 24 , 25. f Conc. Trid. Sess . 14. c. 8. h Heb. 7. 27. i Con. Trid. Sess . 22. e. 1. k Velosillus Aduertent . in 2 To. Chrysost . ad 16. quasitum . Suarez in Tho. To. 3. d 74. sect . 2. The History of the Councel of Trent in English , p. 545. & 555. & 574. l Sixt. Senens . l. 4. verbo . Cornel . Mussus . m Heb. 9. 25. n Conc. Trid. Sess . 22. c. 2. o Heb. 9. 25. p Heb. 9. 22. q Bell. l. 2. de Missa c. 2. r Heb. 13. 4. ſ Rhem. Annot. in 1 Cor. 7. 9. t Iames 3. 2. u Bell. l 4. de 〈◊〉 c. 13. x Apoc. 14. 13. y Rhem. Annot. ibid. z Eph. 5. 23. a 2 Cor. 1● . 2. b Bell. l. 2. de Rom. Pont. c. 31. c 1 Ioh. 1. ● . e Matt. 25. 34 , 41. f Bel. l. 2. de purgat . c. 6. g Bell. l. 2. de purg . c. 7. h Hil , in his Quarterne of Reasons , reason 8. p. 41. i 〈◊〉 Suruey first Booke c. 2. k Lib. adu . pr●fama● omnium haeres . nouati●nes . l Brerely Austins Religion c. 3. sect . 4. ● . 35. m Hist . l. 5. c. 27. n Act. 1. To. 2. Conc. p. 21. edit . Binniana . o Epist . ad Rufum . qu● extat . apud Binn●um inter Acta Conc. Ephes . O●cumen . To. 3. c. 13 p. 780. To. 1. edit . Binniana . p Synod . ●at●ranens . apud Bin. To. 2. Cont. p. 1091. S●cretario 4. q Dial. 6. c. 22. a Annal. To. 6. ad ●n 448 〈◊〉 42. b Rainolds C●●fer . with Hart. ● c. 2. diuis . 2. c Dowly in his instruction of Christian Relig c. 8. p. 108 d Hil in his Quarterne of Reasons Nu. 10. e Sebastian ●laseh in proses . Cathol . ratio 10. 7. f Brislow Motiue 14. g Campian , rat . 5. Kellinsons Suruey l. 1. c. 4. Nu. 6 h Walsinghams search into Religion . p. 19. i Brislow Motiue 14. k Fieri non against Rider , p. 25. l Bishop in his 2. part against M. Perkins Tit. of Repentance . p. 214. m A. 1581. n Rat. 5. o Apology or Petition of Lay Catholikes . 1604. c. 4. p Medulla patrum in Athanasion . c. 15. p. 140. q Conference with Hart. c. 8. di●is . 6. in fine . ſ Cap. 14. p. 606. edit . venet . 1588 t Pious Mirandula in Quaest . An Papasit supra Conc. u Luke 16. 31 x Lib. 1. de Trinitate 6. 3. prope sinem . y Aunal . To. 6. ad An. 450. n. 17 z Lib. 3. de Eccle●a c. 4. a Loc. com . l. 4. c. 2. fol. 118 a. b De viris Illustribus To. 4 . ●perum Hi●ron . c See Sixt. Senens . l. 6. Ann●s . 236. d Synod . Paris . impress . An. 1596. p. 155. e I pist . 1. To. 3. Conc. edit . Bin. p. 256. f Append. ad lib. de cultu Imag. c. 4. g Lib. 4. de A 〈…〉 iss . grattae . &c. ● . 15. h To. 2. in 3 par . Tho. q. 27. disput . 117. c. 3. nu ▪ 36 , &c. i Loc●●itat● . k Lib. de B. Virg. Conception● . l ●o●o citat● . m ●●b . supra ●●t . n Ibid. o Lib. 1. de Maetrimon ▪ c. 3. p To 4. in 3. par , The. disput . 2. ● . 4 Nu. 22. 23. q Cap. 5. de Matrimon . Sacr. n. 30 r See ●●ll●r . l. 3. 〈◊〉 c. 3. t L●it . c. 7. & 10 u Anno● . in ● P●● . 3. 19. x Lib. 4. de Christ● c. 13. y See Bell ▪ l ▪ 1. de Euth●i●● . c. 5. z Artu . 15. Grauisitina atque exa●hsima illustrissimorum to●●● Italia & Gallia Academia , cum Censura , &c. Printed at London 1530