Pope Ioane A dialogue betvveene a protestant and a papist. Manifestly prouing, that a woman called Ioane was Pope of Rome: against the surmises and obiections made to the contrarie, by Robert Bellarmine and Cæsar Baronius Cardinals: Florimondus Ræmondus, N.D. and other popish writers, impudently denying the same. By Alexander Cooke. Cooke, Alexander, 1564-1532. 1610 Approx. 411 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 71 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2009-03 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A19243 STC 5659 ESTC S108622 99844279 99844279 9076 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A19243) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 9076) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1475-1640 ; 879:15) Pope Ioane A dialogue betvveene a protestant and a papist. Manifestly prouing, that a woman called Ioane was Pope of Rome: against the surmises and obiections made to the contrarie, by Robert Bellarmine and Cæsar Baronius Cardinals: Florimondus Ræmondus, N.D. and other popish writers, impudently denying the same. By Alexander Cooke. Cooke, Alexander, 1564-1532. [8], 128 p. Printed [by R. Field] for Ed. Blunt and W. Barret, London : 1610. N.D. = Robert Parsons. Printer's name from STC. Reproduction of the original in the British Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. 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Catholic Church -- Controversial literature -- Early works to 1800. 2006-08 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2006-09 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2008-03 John Pas Sampled and proofread 2008-03 John Pas Text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-09 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion POPE JOANE . A DIALOGVE BETWEENE A PROTESTANT AND A PAPIS● . Manifestly prouing , that a woman called IOANE was Pope of Rome : against the surmises and obiections made to the contrarie , by Robert Be●●●●mine and Baronius●●●dinals ●●●dinals : Florimandus Raemondus , N. D. and 〈◊〉 Popish writers , impudently denying the same . By ALEXANDER COOKE . LONDON , Printed for ED. BLVNT and W. BARRET . 1610. TO THE MOST REVEREND FATHER IN GOD , TOBIAS , MY LORD Archb. of Yorke his Grace , Primate and Metropolitan of England . IT is lamentable to consider how many starres are fallen of late from heauen , how manie Goddesses on the earth haue departed from the faith , and giuen heed vnto the spirit of errors , and doctrines of slanderers , to wit , the Papists . Yet me thinkes it is no matter of wonderment , because we reade , That if men receiue not the loue of the truth , that they might be saued , God in his iustice will giue them strong delusions to beleeue lies , that they may be damned : for few , or none , of these late Apostataes , for any thing I can learne , were euer in loue with the truth . Among vs they were , but they were not of vs , as now appeares by their departing from vs ; for if they had bene of vs , they would haue continued with vs ; doubtlesse they would neuer haue falne to Poperie . For though Poperie be managed after the most politicke manner , yet in it selfe it is a grosse Religion : and the Perfiters thereof , as shamelesse men in auowing manifest vntruths , and denying knowne truths , as euer set pen to paper . All which it is as easie to proue , as to obiect , against them . But my purpose at this time is , to lay open their shame in denying knowne truths : which though it may be shewed by diuers particulars , as namely by b Parsons and c Bishops denying that they call their Pope their Lord God : by d Bellarmines denying that any Iesuite had any hand in the powder treason : by their e generall denying that Pope Honorius the first was an hereticke , and by such like : yet most apparently their impudehcy appeares in denying the report of Pope Ioane , which is proued by a cloude of witnesses in this discourse ( which I make bold to present vnto your Grace : ) for they are driuen to feigne , to forge , to cogge , to play the fooles , and in plaine English , to lie all manner of lies , for the couering of their shame in this . Onuphrius , Harding , Saunders , Cope , Genebrard , Bellarmine , Bernartius , Florimondus , Papyrius Maso , Baronius , Parsons , and diuers others , who haue ioyned hand in hand , with purpose to carrie this cause away by strong hand ; are so intangled in it , that it is with them , as with birds in the lime twigs , which sticke the faster in , by how much they flutter the more to get out . VVhich if your Grace vpon perusing ( at your best leisure ) shall find true , my humble desire is , that you will giue me leaue to publish it vnder your Graces name : partly , that by it the simpler sort ( for I write not for the learned ) may haue a tast by this of the honesty , or rather the dishonesty of Papists in hādling of points in controuersie : and partly , that it may be a testimonie of that reuerent respect , which I acknowledge due to such Church-Gouernours as your Grace is , who giue attendance vnto reading , which the f Apostle willed Timothy to do : and after the example of the ancient Bishops , preach often : drawing on others , not by words onely , but by example also , to performance of like exercises . Hereafter , if it please God , that health , and meanes of bookes serue , I shall light on some more profitable argumēt . In the meane while , I pray God strengthen your Graces hands to the finishing of the Lords worke , in the Prouince wherein you sit , as one of the seuen Angels in the seuen Churches mentioned in the Reuelation : that by your Graces meanes , the Epha , wherein Popish wickednesse sitteth , may be lift vp betweene the earth and the heauen , and caried out of the North , into the land of Sinar , and set there vpon his owne place . Your Graces at commandment ALEXANDER COOKE . TO THE POPISH , or Catholicke Reader . PApist , or Catholicke , chuse whether name thou hast a mind to : ( for though I know that of later yeares thou art proud of both , euen of the name a Papist , as well as of the name b Catholicke ; yet I enuie thee neither : only I would haue thee remember , that that firebrand of hel Hildebrand , commonly called Gregory the 7. c was the first man who challenged it as his sole right , to be called Papa , that is , Pope , whence thou art called Papist : and that diuers are of opinion , as d Hugo de Victore noteth , that in some sence the diuell may be called a Catholicke ) I offer vnto thee here a discourse touching Pope Ioane ( if thou darest reade it , for feare of falling into thy Popes curse ) whose Popedome I will make good vnto thee , not by the testimonies of Pantaleon , and Functius , and Sleidan , and Illyricus , and Constantinus Phrygio , and Iohn Bale , and Robert Barnes , because thou e hast condemned their persons , and their books too , to hell : but by the testimonies of thy brethren , the sonnes of thine owne mother , because , as f one saith , Firmum est genus probationis quod etiam ab aduersario sumitur , vt vertias etiam ab inimicis veritatis probetur : that is a strong proofe which is wroong out of the aduersarie , when the enemies of truth are driuen to beare witnesse vnto the truth . And as g another , Amici contra amicum , & inimici pro inimico inuincibile testimonium est : which s●unds as I conceiue it , thus . The testimony of a Papist against a Papist , and the testimony of a Papist for a Protestant , is without exception . The reason why I haue framed it in way of Dialogue , was , that I might meete more fully with all the cauils which thy Proctors vse in pleading of this case : and that it might be better vnderstood of cōmon Readers , who are sooner gulled with continued discourses . If I haue spoken truly , I would haue thee beare witnes with me vnto the truth ; if otherwise , I am cōeent thou strike me . For though I hold thy Papisme , in some respect , to be worse then Atheisme , agreably to a speech fathered vpon Epiphanius : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Heresie is worse then Infidelity , and by consequent thy selfe a dangerous neighbour to dwell by , because , as one of thine owne h Doctors writes , Certè periculosius est cum haereticis , quàm cum Samaritanis , quàm cum gentilibus , aut Mahumetanis agere : It is questionlesse more dangerous to dwell by an hereticke , then to dwell by a Samaritane , by an heathen , by a Turke : yet I am not so farre out of loue with thee , but I can be content to learne of thee , as i S. Austine did of Tyconius the hereticke , if thou canst teach me . Yea I professe , that though it may be gathered out of k Campian , thy Champion , and Tiburne-Martyr , that thou beleeuest one heauen cannot hold thee , and such as are of my opinion ; though l Costerus wish strangely , that he may be damned both body and soule , if any of vs be saued : yet that hath not estranged me so farre from thee , but that I wish thee well , euen eyes to see the truth , and ingenuitie to acknowledge it . POPE IOANE . A DIALOGVE BETWEENE A PROTESTANT AND a Papist , manifestly prouing , that a woman called Ioane , was Pope of Rome . PROTESTANT . WEll met , and welcome home Sir. What new booke haue you brought vs downe from London this Mart ? PAP . Oh , I haue an excellent booke , which discourseth at large about Pope Ioane , whose Popedom you cast in the Catholiks teeth so oftē . PROT. What language is it in , I pray you ? French ? or Latine ? or English ? and who made it ? PAP . It was a first written in French , but I haue it in Latine . The Author of it is one Florimondus Raemondus . PROT. Florimondus Raemondus ? what is he , that I neuer heard of him before ? Is he , and his booke , of anie credite ? PAP . He himselfe is reputed b a very famous man for life and learning , so that , at this present he is one of the French Kings Councell at Burdeux ; and as for his booke , it is of wonderfull esteeme . PROT. With whom I pray you ? PAP . Euen with Cardinall Baronius . For c he holds it the worthiest discourse that euer was made of that argument ; He professeth , that he could haue found in his heart to haue inserted it into his Annales , but that it is somewhat too large . For by it as the Cardinall further d noteth , he hath so confounded all the packe of Heretickes , who heretofore vpbraided the Catholickes with it , that now they are ashamed of that which they haue said , PROT. But hath any man else the like opinion of it ? PAP . Yea marry , Posseuin is of the same minde . For e Posseuin saith , that he hath killed the heretickes outright . That since the publishing of that booke the heretickes are whisht , they dare talke no more of a Pope Ioane . PROT. This is much : but haue you read it ? PAP . Read it ? Yea I haue read it againe and againe . Besides , I haue compared it with that which is written of the same argument , by Buchingerus in Germany : by Charanza in Spaine : by Onuphrius , and Bellarmine , and Baronius , in Italy : by Turrian , and Bernartius in Belgia : by Pontacus in Aquitania : by Genebrard , and Papyrius Massonus , in France : by Sanders , by Cope , by Harding , by Father Parsons , and others of our owne countrey . PROT. And what say you now ( after the reading of all these ) to the storie of Pope Ioane , tell me in good earnest , and dissemble not . PAP . I say , the very truth is , that the whole storie of Pope Ioane , is f a fable ; a g fond and vaine fable , a h meere fable , an i hereticall fable , a k ridiculous fiction : and so l knowne to the learneder sort of Protestants among you , but that you will not leaue to delude the world with it , for lacke of other matter . Yea m I say further , there are so many improbabilities , and morall impossibilities in this tale , as no man of any meane iudgement , discretion , or common sense , will giue credite thereto : but will easily see the vanitie thereof . And in a word , n I say , he was a knaue that deuised it , and he is foole who beleeueth it . PROT. Now this is excellent in good truth : I see there is mettall in you . But what reason haue you on your side , that you are so peremptorie ? Did it not run for currant without controlment till within these fortie yeares , or thereabout : to wit , till the year 1566 , that Onuphrius the Frier began to bogle at it ? Was not Onuphrius the first , that euer by reason sought to discredit the report of it ? And yet doth not euen o he confesse , that many men of worth , as well as of ordinarie sort , beleeued it for a truth ? Is it not to be found in Marianus Scotus , in Sigebert , in Gotefridus Viterbiensis , in Iohannes de Parisiis , in Martinus Polonus , in Petrarch , in Boccace , in Ramulsus Cestrensis , in Iohannes Lucidus , in Alphonsus è Carthagena , in Theodoricus de Niem , in Chalcocondilas , in Platina , in Palmerius , in Nauclerus , in Sabellicus , in Trithemius , in Volateran , in Bergomensis , in Schedel , in Laziardus , in Fulgosus , in Textor , in Gassarus , in Mantuan , in Crantius , in Charanza , and a p number moe of your owne faction , and of your owne friends ? of which some were Grecians , some Italians , some Spaniards , some French , some Germains , some Polonians , some Scots , some English ; and yet neuer a one of them a Lutheran . Yea do we not find it in some of your stories set downe in pictures ? And is not so much to be gathered by that image of hers , which is set vp amongst the rest of the images of the Popes in the renowned church of Siena in Italie , and is to be seene there at this day : which the Bishop of that place would not suffer to be defaced at the last repairing of that Church , though your Iesuites did earnestly request him to deface it ? Was there not made of old ( for feare of such like after-claps ) a stoole of easement , on which they were set at their creation , for proofe of their humanitie ? Was there not a marble image set vp as a monumēt thereof in that place where she miscaried ? to wit , in one of the chiefest streets in Rome ? which monument was to be seene likewise within these few yeares , euen in Pius the 5. his time . And is it not written by men among your selues , that your Popes , when they go in procession , refuse to go through that streete , in detestation of that fact , and go further about ? How say you , is it not euen thus ? PAP . It is written ( I n confesse ) that our Popes , in detestation of that fact , whē they go in procession to the Lateran Church , refuse to go through that streete : but they who write so , mistake the matter . For the true reason why they turne out of that street , which is the nearer way , is , for that , that streete is angusta & anfractuosa , a narrow streete , and such a one as windes this way and that way : and in that respect , vnfit for so great atraine , as ordinarily accompanies the Pope to passe orderly through : as o Onuphrius , and p Bellarmine , and q Florimondus , haue obserued . PROT. Say you so ? why , but if it be true which Philippus Bergomensis hath storied , this obseruation is false : for Eo omisso ( c saith he ) speaking of the Popes turning out of that place of the streete , r wherein Dame Ioane was deliuered ) declina ad diuerticula , vicosque & sic , loco detestabili postergato , reintrantes , iter perficiunt quod coeperunt : that is , Leauing that way , they turne into by-lanes and by-streets ; & as soone as they are beyond that detestable place , they turne into their way againe , and so go on in their procession . For if vpon their leauing that streete , they enter into by-lanes and by-streets , and as soone as they are past that ominous place turne in againe ; the reason why they leaue that streete cannot be , for that it is narrow , and winding in and out . For no question , but those by-lanes , are as narrow : and by their turning out , and returning into the same way againe , they winde as often in and out , as if they went along through the same streete , though it were very crooked . But howsoeuer , shift it among you : for it sufficeth me , that you cannot deny , but that which I told you concerning this point , is written by men of your owne religion : especially seeing ſ Platina , who knew Rome well enough , and was desirous to couer the Popes nakednesse herein , as much as he could with any honestie , confesseth , that this is probable enough . What haue you to say to the rest of my speech ? PAP . Much. For whereas you say Onuphrius was the first who by reason sought to discredit the report of it : that is not so . Iohannes de Columna a good writer of Chronicles , long before Onuphrius , hath likewise vtterly reiected the vanitie of this fable as D. t Harding noteth . PRO. Iohannes de Columna his historie is extant in Lattine in the Vniuersitie library at Oxford : and in French , in New Colledge library . But there is not one word , good , or bad , for , or against Pope Ioane in it . If he reiected it , he reiected it by silence . PAP . But u Iohannes Auentinus , reiected it in plaine words . And he wrote a good many yeares before Onuphrius . PROT. Iohannes Auentinus ( I grant ) reiects it as a fable in one word , but he giues no reason of his reiecting of it . Besides , x Bellarmine casts him off as a writer of small credit : and y Baronius brands him , not meerely for a skabd sheepe , but for an heretical skabby beast , destitute both of honestie and learning : and diuers of your Popes haue z cried downe his history , as vnworthy of reading ; wherefore I see no reason , that his reason-lesse reiecting of it , doth any way preiudice the truth of it . What haue you else to say ? PAP . First I would know who told you there was such a marble image in one of the streets at Rome ? PRO. a Theodoricus de Niem , who was Secretary to one of your Popes , told me that : for Adhuc vetus statua marmorea illic positafiguratiuè monstrat hoc factum , saith Theodoricus de Niem : that is , Vnto this day an old marble image erected in that place sheweth the matter vnder a figure . PAP . Indeede b I cannot deny but that in former ages many haue said so , and ( to confesse a truth ) I my selfe haue read as much in Antoninus Archbishop of Florence , and in Peter Mexia . But verily that image resembled no such thing . For neither was it like a woman lying in child-bed , nor was the boy which was grauen by her , like a child in the swadling clouts , but like one of some yeares . PRO. This your exception is to no purpose ; for that age was a learne-lesse and a witlesse age . And therefore perhaps had no more skill in grauing , caruing , and painting , then they had , c who were driuen to set either vnder , or aboue their pictures , Hoc est bos : illudequus : hoc arbor : that men might know what kinde of creature it was that they had painted . Questionlesse d Aeneas Syluius , pointing to a better time then that of Pope Ioanes , condemnes the painters and caruers thereof for notorious bunglers , saying thus ; Si ducētorum , trecentorúmue annorum , aut sculpturas intu●beris , aut picturas : inuenies non hominum , sed monstrorum portentorumque facies : that is , If thou obserue the grauen or painted images which were made two or three hundred yeares agone , thou shalt find , that they are faced more like monsters , and hobgoblins , then men . Now if they were such , what maruell , though intending to ingraue a woman trauelling , or rather newly deliuered of a child , they did it but vntowardly ? But what I pray you doth that Image represent , if it represent not Pope Ioane ? PAP . z Cardinall Bellarmine seemes to like of their opinion , who guesse that some heathenish priest , who was about to offer sacrifice , and had his man before him , is denoted thereby . But I am rather of a Florimondus minde , who thinkes it was an idole , euen an image of some of the gods of the heathen . PROT. If it had represented a sacrificing priest , and his man : the man should haue bene grauen behind , and not before his maister . For the seruant followeth his maister , b as the young man that bare Ionathans armour , followed Ionathan , wherefore you haue reason to leaue Bellarmine in this . But why do you incline to Florimondus ? doth he giue you any reason for this opinion ? or alledgeth any Author of his opinion ? PAP . Yes , c he professeth , that he followeth Onuphrius therein , who was a most diligent Antiquary . PROT. But he lies in that . For Onuphrius speakes not one word good or bad of this marble Image . He passeth it ouer in silence , as though no man had euer spoken of it . PAP . I maruell if that be so . But yet I rest perswaded vpon Florimondus next reason , that that Image resembled not Pope Ioane . For if the ingrauer had purposed to expresse such a matter , and to continue thereby the memory thereof to the worlds end , he would haue set some d inscription ouer it ; for so do all men who erect monuments for remembrances . PROT. That is not so , for we reade in e Eusebius , that the f woman who was cured by our Sauiour Christ of her issue of blood , &c. erected ( after the custome of the heathen ) an image of him , no doubt for remēbrance sake . But we reade of no inscription written vpon it . In the booke of g Iosua we reade , that the Israelites were commanded to lay 12. stones vpon an heape , as a memoriall vnto their children for euer . And yet it is plaine by the circumstances they set nothing thereon in writing . When you paint S. Peter , you paint him with keyes in his hand , and set no inscription ouer his head , nor vnder his feet , as * Baronius confesseth . Wherfore for any thing I yet heare , it is most probable that it was set vp for a monument of Pope Ioane . PAP . Enioy your conceit . But h I can tell you one thing . That image is now remoued out of that place . For Sixtus Quintus , that great builder and mender of high wayes , when he made that streete straight , wherein that image was , was forced to remoue that Image . PROT. Belike , that image would haue bene some blemish vnto the streete , if it had remained : and that made him moue it . PAP . Yea marry would it . PROT. Now well fare his heart that was so carefull to ridde the streets of such a combersome monument . But who told you that Sixtus Quintus remoued it vpō that occasion ? PAP . l Florimondus . PROT. Was it he ? Then know him for a lier whilest you liue : for it was Pius Quintus , and not Sixtus Quintus , who remoued it . And Pius Quintus remoued it , and cast it into Tiber , not for that it disgraced the streete : but vt memoriam historiae illius aboleret : that he might extinguish the memory of that shameful act . And this is witnessed not only by some trauellers , who were at that time in Rome ; but by n Elias Hassenmuller , one ( once ) of your firie order of Iesuits . Your Florimondus will not deserue ( I feare ) halfe the commendation you haue giuen him . PAP . I doubt not but he wil acquit himself like a man , of whatsoever you can say against him . But whence had you that of the stoole of easemēt , I pray you ? for o in Bellarmin I read , that de sede ad explorandum sexū nulla vsquam mentio . Of a stoole of easement , to trie the Popes sexe , there is no where any mention : and in p Onuphrius , that it is but a meere toy , and an idle conceit of idle people . PROT. That of the stoole of easement , is recorded by Philippus Bergomensis , q a man of great worth in his time as Trithemius witnesseth . For vpon mention made of Pope Ioanes storie , Ad euitandos similes errores statutum fuit ( r saith he ) ne quis de caetero in B. Petri collocaretur sede , priusquam per perforatam sedem futuri Pontificis genitalia ab vltimo Diacono Cardinale attrectarentur . That is , For auoiding like error in future times , it was decreed : that no man should be held for Pope , till the yongest Cardinall Deacon had found by triall , while he sate vpon a stoole of easement , that he was a man. which is likewise testified by ſ Laonicus Chalchondylas . For vpon relation of that storie , he goes on thus : Quapropter ne decipiantur iterum , sed rem cognoscant , neque ambigant : Pontificis creati virilia tangunt , & qui tangit , acclamat : Mas nobis Dominus est : that is , Lest they should be deceiued againe , they make proofe by feeling ; and he that feeleth makes it knowne by crying out ; We haue a man Pope . And you may find as much in a later Papist , who within these few yeares , writ a booke of the Harmonie of Romish magistrates , and in it this . PAP . You say true indeed . For I now remember t Florimondus confesseth so much , yet he reproueth the Author for writing so . But let vs go on : for I long to heare of whom you heard that such a chaire was to be seene , in the Popes pallace , within these few yeares . PRO. I heard that of u Sabellicus . For writing of the same matter , Spectatur adhuc in Pontificia domo marmorea sella ( saith he ) circa medium inanis , qua nonus Pontifex continuò ab eius creatione resedit , vt sedentis genitalia ab vltimo Diacono attrectentur . That is , There is to be seene at this day in the Popes pallace , a chaire of marble , wherein the new Pope presently vpon his election is set downe , that as he sits , the lowest Deacon may make triall of his humanitie by touching . And you may find as much in William Brewin , who liued in the yeare 1470. for in * Capella Saluatoris ( saith he ) sunt duae vel plures cathedrae de lapide marmoreo & cubio , cum for aminibus in ijs sculptis , super quas cathedras , vt audiui ibidem , est probatio Papae , vtrùm sit masculus , an non . That is , In the chappell of our Sauiour there are two or three marble chaires with holes in them , wherein , as I heard there , they make proofe whether the Pope be a man or no. PAP . x Florimondus acknowledgeth there is yet such a chaire , wherein the Popesits after his election . But that he sits therein to such an end as you speake , that he vtterly denies . PROT. And what is his reason ? PAP . y Because he sittes therein not in a corner , but in the great Church of S. Iohn Laterā , whither all the world ( almost ) comes to see him ; where he is attended by the whole Colledge of Cardinals , and whereat there are many Embassadours of kings and Princes : for a closer place were fitter for such a purpose . They might more conueniently haue made triall of his humanitie in the conclaue where he was chosen . PROT. And so they did , it seemes : for presently vpon their electing of him before they proclaimed him Pope , they set him in a chaire in their conclaue , as you may reade in the booke of holy ceremonies dedicated to Leo the 10. Whereby you may see how idlely a Bellarmine talkes , who taking vpon him to cleare the point , neuer speakes of his sitting in the chaire in the conclaue , but onely of his sitting in certaine other chaires at S. Iohn Laterans , as though he had bene chaired onely in publike , and not in priuate : and that he himself had said sufficiently to the point in question , by prouing that in publike there was no such conclusiō tried with the Pope : whereas the conclusion was tried in secret . But can you tell me what the end is why the Pope sits in such a chaire in publike ? PAP . Marry to the end that thereby he may be put in mind , that he is not God , but man : in as much as he stands in need of a close stoole as well as others : for so saith b Florimondus . PROT. I promise you and he had need to be put in mind thereof . For though c some Papists shamefully denie it , there haue bene popish clawbackes , d who in plaine words haue termed the Pope , as e S. Thomas termed Christ : their Lord and God : and there are still f who giue him such titles as are due to God , and ascribe like power to him and God. But me thinks , they should not need to haue set him in such a chaire to such a purpose ; for his owne necessitie would haue driuen him to set himselfe thereon ordinarily euery day : and his chamber-pot would haue serued to put him in minde of his humanitie sufficiently . For Antigonus the elder knew by that , that he was man and not a God , as g Plutarch writeth . Besides , me thinkes they should not haue intended such a mysterie by such a ceremonie , because they set him therein before he was in his pontificalibus : for till he be mitred , till he be crowned , till he haue receiued the keyes , whereby is denoted his power to bind and loose : and a rod , whereby is denoted his power to punish the obstinate : me thinkes there should be no feare of forgetting himselfe . For till such ceremonies be performed , he is not in his ruffe . Againe , had it not bene better thinke you , if they had aimed at anie such marke , to haue caused a boy to come euery morning vnto the Popes chamber dore ( after the example of h Philip king of Macedonia ) who should haue whoopt him out of his bed , and bid him remember , that he was mortall ? PAP . If you like not Florimondus coniecture touching that ceremonie , what say you to i Bellarmines , which is : That he is set on such a stoole , to signifie how he is raised from base estate , to supreme honour ? PROT. I say Bellarmines coniecture is as improbable , and fond as Florimondus . For your Popes , since Pope Ioanes dayes , haue bene chosen for the most part out of the number of your Cardinals . And your Cardinals estate is not so base , as that he who is aduanced from that vnto the Papacie , can be truely said , to be taken in any sort from off a close stoole . For they are generally k Princes fellowes . Yea some of them ( you cannot but know ) haue not bene ashamed to prefixe their owne names before their owne kings , vsing these words : I and my king . Wherefore vnlesse you can render me some better reason , why your Popes are set on such a seate , I shall remaine perswaded that in former times it was for proofe of their humanitie , vpon the accident aforesaid . PAP . Enioy your opinion for me . But where reade you that there was such an Image in the Church of Siena , which the Iesuites would haue defaced , but that the Bishop of the place would not suffer them ? PROT. That I haue heard by many trauellers , and read in maister Bel ; both in his booke of m Motiues concerning the Romish religion , and in his n Suruey of Poperie : wherevnto neuer a Papist of you all dare answer . PAP . Yes we dare , though we do not . But I can tel you newes . o That Image of Pope Ioane , which was set vp in the Church of Siena , is cast downe by the commandement of Clement the 8. by the meanes of Caesar Baronius , at the request of Florimondus . Caesar Baronius hath certified Florimondus so much by a letter , and for ioy , p Florimondus hath published it vnto the world . PROT. What ? is that Image cast downe too ? Florimondus might do well , to make request to the present Pope , that those bookes which write of Pope Ioane may be burned ; in hope , that the present Pope will as readily burne the bookes , as Clement the 8. threw downe that Image , and Pius Quintus the other . And so in time to come , when all euidences are imbezeled , and all monuments defaced , and made out of the way , it will be a plaine case there was neuer any Pope Ioane . PAP . Oh! this angers you I perceiue . And yet why should you be angrie at the throwing downe of this ? For suppose it had stood still , is there any sence that because of such an Image , we should be bound the rather to beleeue there was such a Pope ? q I can tell you if we beleeue Painters and caruers we may soone marre all : for in Saint Andrewes Church at Burdeux , one of the excellentest Churches in all France , our Sauiour Christ is described ascending vp to heauen vpon the backe of a flying Eagle : which stands not well with the Scripture . PROT. That 's true , if we beleeue your painters and caruers , we shall soone marre all indeed . For we find the Trinity painted by you , somtimes in the likenes of a man with three faces : sometimes in the likenesse of a man , with two heads , hauing a doue between thē ; both which fashions of painting the Trinitie , are monstrous in r Bellarmines opinion . We find our Sauiour Christ painted with long haire , as though he had bene a Nazarite by vow : which conceit is controlled by ſ Scripture . We find him set on a weathercocke vpon the top of the Temple of Ierusalem , as though that Temple had had a spire steeple like ours : t which is neither so , nor so . We finde the virgine Marie treading on the Serpents head , which the u Scriptures foretold , that Christ himselfe should do . We finde her set out in a gowne of wrought gold : whereas ( no question ) she was meanely apparelled : and with a paire of Beades in her hand , whereas of a thousand yeares after Christ there were y no Beads in the world . In like sort we find z Moses painted with two hornes ; a Iohn Baptist , in a raw Camels skin ; b Iohn the Euangelist , like a beardles boy , when he writ his Gospel ; c Marie Magdelen in a loose gowne ; d S. Ierome in his Cardinals robes : all which is false as God is true . Besides , your painters recōmend vnto vs a Saint on horsebacke , whom they call George . And an other Saint on foote , as big as a Giant , whom they call Christopher : and a she Saint , broken vpon a where , whom they call Catharin : and a fourth drawne in peeces with horses , whom they call Hippolitus : whereas in all antiquity , e there is no mention of any such Saints . So that you neuer spoke a truer word in your life , then this , that if we beleeue painters and caruers , we shall soone marre all . But what if booke proofe concurre with painting and caruing ? may we not then without feare of marring all , giue credit to painters and caruers ? your f Bellarmin is of opinion that there can be no error in substance , as long as besides booke-proofe , there be monuments of stone , or of brasse , for the proofe of any ancient report . And if he speake the words of truth , the truth is with vs ; for besides monuments of stone , we haue the testimonies of many writers . PAP . But not so many as you brag of , I beleeue . And besides , g those you haue are but paltrie writers . PROT. That shall be seene by a more particular view of them . Wherefore first , what say you to Charanza , the last of them whom I named , who was a ah diuinity reader among you , & afterwards i Archbishop of Toledo in Spaine ? was he a paltrie writer ? or hath he not this storie , in your opinion ? PAP . I thinke he hath it not . For k Florimondus names Charanza , among them who disproued the story of Pope Ioane , before he himselfe fell to disproue it . PROT. Doth he so ? doubtlesse then he belies Charanza . For this is all that l Charanza writes of that argument . lohannes 8. Papa . 105. sub Petro , sedit An. 2. mens . 1. dies 4. De hoc ferunt , quod malis artibus pontificatum adeptus est , quoniam cum esset foemina , sexum mentitus est ; & postea à seruo compressa , doloribus circūnenta , mortua est . Which in english is this . Iohn the 8. the 105. Pope from S. Peter , sate 2. yeares 1. moneth , and 4. daies . They report of this person that he got the Papacy by euil meanes , because he feigned himself to be a man , wheras in truth he was a woman ; who being afterwards begot with child by one of her seruants , fell in trauell and died thereon . And this is not disprouing of it . Is it trow you ? PAP . No verily if he say no more of it , but perhaps he saith more , and you conceale it from me ? PROT. Not a word I warrant you . Wherefore let vs go on , and obserue , who , and what manner of men the rest are , who beare witnes with vs in this case . What say you to Krātius ? hath he not this story ? or is he but a paltry writer ? PAP . Krantius is commended by m Pontanus , for a famous historiographer . And seeing he wrote before Luthers dayes there is no reason ( n as Bellarmine notes vpon another occasion ) that he should be suspected to write any thing for loue or hatred . But hath he this storie ? PROT. Yea. o For these are his owne words . Iohannes Anglicus , ex Moguntia mulier , mentita sexum , quum acutissimo ingenio & promptissima lingua doctissmè loqueretur , adeò inse conuertit omnium animos , vt pontificatum adipisceretur , vno famulo sexum eius cognoscente , à quo compressa pregnans efficitur : & fertur peperisse apud Colosseum An. 2. necdum expleto , in partu moritur : which in effect sounds thus : Iohn English , a woman of Mentz dissembled her sexe , and being of a quick wit and glib tongue ; & one that could speake very scholerlike , she won the hearts of all men , that she got the Papacie , no man knowing anie other but that she was a man , saue one of her seruants , who afterwards got her with child . They say she was deliuered neare the Colosses , before she had sitten full two years . Thus Krantius . PAP . And hath Mantuan the same , whom you cited next before Krantius ? PROT. Yea Mantuan , who is commended by p Trithemius for a great Diuine , an excellent Philosopher , and a famous Poet , the onely man in all Italie in his time : Mantuan , q at whom the people pointed as he went in the streets , and said , This is he ; which was wont to be held a matter of extraordinarie credite . Mantuan , of whom Picus Mirandula , Pontanus , Beroaldus , Baronius , Posseuin , and diuerse others , r giue honorable testimonie . This Mantuan hath this storie . For , falling to describe hell , and what maner of persons were in hell , Hic ( ſ saith he ) pendebat adhuc sexum mentita virilem Foemina , cui triplici Phrygiam diademate mitram Extollebat apex , & Pontificalis adulter . Which in effect sounds thus much ▪ Here hangd the woman who went like a man , and came to the Popedome . And here hangd he that committed adulterie with her . PAP You say right : for I remember now that t Florimondus confesseth the tale is in Mantuan . But Mantuan deserues no credit in this : for he writes worse of her then euer any did before him : and u feignes , very ridiculously , that her horsekeeper who got her with child , and she were both hangd together . PROT. Mantuan talkes of no horsekeeper of hers , but in generall of one who committed adultery with her , nor of any hanging , saue of their hanging in hell , which is likely enough to be true . Your Florimondus can lay his finger vpon nothing , but he grimes it . He can comment vpon no mans words , but he wrests them . There is not a word in Mantuan more ( concerning her ) then that which is comprehended in the three verses cited . PAP . At better leasure I will examine your words more narrowly . In the meane time , what hath Achilles Gassarus for your purpose ? PROT. Achilles Gassarus , in his Epitome of all Histories and Chronicles , collected out of the best historiographers , x hath these words : Iohannes octauus , natione Anglicus , officio Papa , sexu tamen foemina , sedit annos 2. & mens . 6. turpissimè . Which is : Iohn the eight , by countrey of England , by calling a Pope , yet by sexe a woman , sate shamefully as Pope two yeares and sixe moneths . Is not this plaine ? PAP . Yes : but what find you in Rauisius Textor ? PROT. Scitum est ex Chronicis , & à maioribus scriptū ( saith y Rauisius Textor ) Iohannem Anglicum ab Ephebis sexum virilem simulasse , & tandem fato nescio quo , aut fortuna certè volente , ad Pontificatum peruenisse , in quo annos circiter duos sederit , post Leonem 4. neque priùs innotuerit facti veritas , quàm à quodam ex domesticis impregnata , tandem emiserit partum . That is , It is a thing well knowne by the Chronicles , and written by our ancestors , that Iohn English from her youth vp caried her selfe as though she had bene a man , and at length , by I know not what destinie , certainly by verie great lucke , she became Pope , & sate about two yeares , after Leo the fourth , and no bodie knew her cosinage till she was with child by one of her meniall seruants , and deliuered thereof . PAP . What find you in Fulgosus ? PROT. Marrie I find in a Fulgosus , b who was a noble and learned man , and sometimes Duke of Genua , that Iohn the eight was found out to be a woman . PAP . And what in Laziardus ? PRO. Iohānes Anglicus in cathedra Petri sedit annis duobus , mensibus septem , diebus quatuor , saith c Laziardus . Hic , vt fertur , foemina fuit , &c. that is , Iohn English sate in S. Peters chaire two yeares , seuen moneths , and fower dayes . This , as the report goeth , was a woman , &c. PAP . And who was the next you cited before this ? PROT. Hartmannus Schedel , a Doctor of physicke , yet not ignorant of holy Scriptures , a verie wittie and well spoken man , as d Trithemius witnesseth . PAP . Oh : Schedel ( I confesse ) e reports this . f But he reports it so coldly , so fearefully , so faintly , that a man may well see he doubted of it . For he confesseth , that he knew not whether it was so or no ; and therefore fathers it vpon one Martin , I know not whom . PROT. Fie , that you should say so . Doth he not vse the very words without change , which Platina vseth in relating the same , whereof we shall haue occasion to speake ere we part ? and against which you can take no exceptions ? And doth he not ( to imprint the matter deeper into the readers memorie ) set her picture downe with a child in her armes ? PAP . Yes indeed I cannot deny that . But to be plaine with you , I care not what he saith of it . For as g Florimondus noteth , * he was one of the stinking broode of the Hussites , and liued in Nurinberge , what time Nurinberge was infected with Husses heresie . And therefore no maruell , if to curry fauour with them , he touched by the way the supposed Popedome of Ioane the woman . PROT. See how you lauish . This Hartmannus Schedel borne in Nurinberge , was h student in Padua , where he was created Doctor of Phisicke by the great Mathiolus . And he was so farre from Husses minde , that in the same i booke he hath one whole chapter intituled , De haeresi Hussitarum , & eius origine . That is , Of Husses heresie , and of the originall thereof . Wherein he followes Aeneas Syluius step by step , k who speakes spitefully and bitterly against Husse and all his followers . It seemes Florimondus of whom you learned this , is one of some stinking broode of lyers . PAP . Well , who is next ? PROT. Iacobus Bergomensis , a man well seene in Scripture , and an excellent humanitian , wittie , eloquent , of good conuersation , & a most famous Historiographer , as l Trithemius reports of him . This Iacobus Bergomensis ( I say ) writes thus of this point : m Iohannes 7. Papa , natione Anglicus , post Leonem Pontificem Pontifex factus , sedit ann . 2. mens . 5. Hunc tradunt fuisse foeminam , quae adolescens admodum , ex Anglia , Athenas ●um quodam doctissimo aniasio suo profecta , ibidem bonarum artium praeceptores audiendo , tantum profecit , vt Romam veniens paucos admodum etiam insacris Literis haberet pares . Ea quippe legendo , disputando , docendo , orando , tantam beneuolentiam & gratiam sibi comparauit , vt mortuo Leone praedicto Pontifice , in eiusdem locum , vt multi affirmant , omnium consensu Pontifex crearetur : verùm postea à familiari compressa , grauidatur , & Papa existens peperit . Nam ex Vaticano ad Later anensem Basilicam aliquando ad Litanias profecta , inter Colosseum & S. Clementem , praeter spem doloribus circumuenta , sine obstetrice aliqua publicè peperit , & eò loci mortua ibidem , sine vllo honore cum foetu misera sepulta est . Adcuius detestandum spurcitiem , & nominis continuandum memoriam , in hodiernum vsque , summi Pontifices rogationem cumpopulo & clero sacram agentes , cum locum partus , medio eius in itinere positum , abominentur , eo omisso , declinant ad diuerticula vicosque : & sic loco detestabili postergato , reintrantes iter perficiunt quod coeperunt . Et ad euitandos similes errores statutum fuit , ne quis de caetero in B. Petri collocaretur sede , priusquam per perforatam sedem futuri Pontificis genitalia ab vltimo Diacono Cardinale attrectarentur . That is : Iohn the seuenth , by countrey English , was created Pope next after Leo , and sate two yeares and fiue moneths . They say this was a woman , and that she went verie yong out of England to Athens with a certaine great clerke who was in loue with her : and that there by hearing of good professors , she profited so much , that when she came to Rome she had few like her in Diuinitie . Whereupon , by her reading , disputing , teaching , and praying , she got her selfe so much fauour , that vpon Leo his death she was chosen Pope into his roome ( as manie men say ) by common consent . But see the lucke of it ; a while after she was got with child by one of her acquaintance , and deliuered thereof in the time of her Papacie . For going vpon a time from the Vatican to S. Iohn Laterans in procession , betweene the Colosses and S. Clements , ere euer she was aware , she fell in trauell , and was deliuered in the high streete without the helpe of anie midwife . But she died presently , and was buried without anie solemnitie in the same place , with her litle one by her . Now in hatred of her filthie dealing , and for continuing of the memorie of so leud a part , the Popes to this day when they go in procession , in respect of their dislike of that place of her trauell , which was in the midst of her way , forsaking it , do turne into by-lanes and by-streets , till they haue left that on their backes ; and then returning into the same streete againe , they go forward with their procession . And for auoiding of like mischiefe in time to come , it was decreed : That none should be consecrated Pope , before the yongest Cardinall Deacon had tried by touching ( whilest the partie to be consecrated sate on a close stoole ) that he was a man. Thus Bergomensis . PAP . Is not this he that wrote Supplementum Chronicorum , in the yeare 1503 ? PROT. No. But this is he who wrote Supplementū Chronicorum in the yeare 1486. as n Trithemius witnesseth , and the booke it self conuinceth . Your o Florimondus was deceiued , who seeing ( perhaps ) that it was printed in the yeare 1503 , thought it was written the yeare 1503. PAP . That error is not so great , though an error . But if it be he that I meane , I say with p Florimondus , That his reporting of it is an argument of his ignorance , and so let him go . PROT. So you may cast off all the rest if you be disposed , and make short worke of our conference , for you may say of euery one : His reporting of it , is an argument of his ignorance . When q Volateran an historiographer of good note , shall be brought in saying : Iohannes . 7. Anglicus , quem dissimulato viri habitu dicunt foeminam alioquin doctissimam fuisse , deprehensamque in via apud S. Clementem , quando peperit : that is , Iohn English , the 7. of that name , who ( as they say ) caried himselfe like a man , when as indeede she was a notable well learned woman ; and discouered so to be by her deliuery of a child in the way neere to Saint Clements : you may reply , Volaterans reporting of it , is an argument of his ignorance . PAP . And what if I did so ? yet you shall know anone , that I haue a better answer to him , and to the rest . But meane while go on , and tell me what Trithemius saith to the matter . PROT. Thrithemius r Abbot of Saint Martins Monasterie in Spanhiem , a reuerend and an exceeding great learned man , writes ſ thus : Sancto Leone Papa mortuo , eodem anno Iohannes Anglicus successit 2. annis , & mensibus 5. quem ferunt quidam foeminam extitisse , & vni soli familiari cognitā , & ab eo compressam , peperisse in strata publica . Et ob id eum nonnulli inter Pontifices ponere noluerunt , quasi indignum facinus abhorrentes . That is , In the same yeare that Pope Leo died , Iohn English succeeded for 2. yeares and 5. moneths . Now some say she was a woman , and that she was knowne so to be but to one onely , by whom at length she was begot with child , and deliuered thereof in the high way . And for this cause some would not recken her among Popes in disliking her villanous fact . Thus Thrithemius . With whom in substance agreeth Sabellicus , t a man of great reckoning in Venice , yea one of the famousest men in his time for all manner of good learning : of whose bookes * Pius the third professed he made as much reckoning as Alexander did of Homers Iliads . Iohannes Anglicus huius nominis 7 fit inde Pontifex , saith u Sabellicus . Fuit is Moguntiaco oriundus . PAP . Stay you there , and saue a labour . For I confesse with x Florimondus , that Sabellicus by relying too much on Platina , hath put it in his history , doing therein very indiscreetly . PROT. And what thinke you of Wernerus Roleuink , who is reckened by y Paulus Langius , among the famous Scholers of the order of Carthusians , and commended by z Trithemius , for a man of good learning , and much deuotion , a whose words are these : Iste Iohannes Anglicus cognomine , sed natione Maguntinus , circa haec tempora dicitur fuisse . Et erat foemina habitu vestita virili : sic in diuina Scriptura profecerat , vt par ei non inueniretur , & in Papam eligitur . Sed pòst impregnata , cūpulicè in processione pergeret , peperit & moritur . Et hic sextus videtur fuisse Papa , qui nomen sanctitatis sine re habuit vsque h●c . Et similiter sicut alij à Deo plagatus fuit : nec ponitur in Catalogo Pontificum : that is , This Iohn , by his Sir-name English , by his countrey of Mentz , is reported to haue sit as Pope about this time . And she was a woman . But went in mans apparel . She profited so well in diuinity , that she had no fellowe , and so was chosen to be Pope . But after a while being great with ch●ld , as she went in publike Procession , she was deliuered thereof , and died . And this seemes to be the sixth Pope , which to this day was called holy , and proued naught . And therefore he was plagued by God , as the rest before him were plagued . Neither is she in the Register of Popes . How say you ? did not Wernerus indiscreetly in relating it thus plainely ? PAP . Yes marrie did he . But I wonder not at him , for relating of it : because in the same place ( as b Florimondus obserues ) he writes , that in as much as she was a Germaine , no Germaine could euer since be chosen Pope . Which is a lie with a latchet . For diuers Germaines since that haue bene aduanced vnto the Popedome , as Damasus the second , and Victor the second , with others , PRO. True : diuers Germaines haue bene Popes since Ioane the womans Popedome ; and if Wernerus writ the contrary , Wernerus lied shamefully . But he hath no rule of his tonge , who chargeth Wernerus with such a matter . For these are Wernerus words , which follow presently vpon the former : Nugantur aliqui , hac de causa nullum Almannum in Papam eligi , quod falsum esse constat . Some prattle , that for this cause no Germain may be chosen Pope , which is apparantly false . Whereby you may see that he reproueth that in others , for which he is iniuriously reproued by your Florimondus . Your Florimondus may be a man in office , but if he go on as he begins , he will hardly proue himselfe honest . PAP . Good words I pray you sir . Florimondus may be honest enough for any thing you say against him . For he * writes , that he hath two editions of this Wernerus , the one bearing date what * yeare it was printed , the other without date , but very ancient . And these two ( as he saith ) do differ in reporting the storie of Pope Ioane , and in nothing else . Now it may be that though in yours it be as you say , yet in his it is otherwise . PROT. I my selfe haue seene two editions of Wernerus aswell as Florimondus ; yea I haue seene foure ; one * printed in the yeare 1479. another printed by Nicolas Gotz of Seltestad , I know not when , for it caries no date : a third without note either of the printer , or of the place where it was printed , or of the time when it was printed . But questionles very ancient : a fourth printed at Frankeford , 1584. In the 3 ancient ones there is not a word different in the narration of Pope Ioane : nor in the 4 , sauing that the words Nugantur aliqui , &c. are in the fourth , and not in the other . But in none of them is there anie such thing as Florimondus chargeth him with . But wil you heare what the next man saith to the point in question ? He is Matheus Palmerius , c an Italian , and one of the choice men which were at the Councel kept by Eugenius the 4. against the Councell of Basil . Pontifex 106. Iohannes Auglicus ( saith d Palmerius ) sedit annis 2 , mensibus 3. Fama est hunc Iohannem foeminam fuisse , & vni soli familiari cognitam : qui eam cōplexus est , & grauis facta , peperit Papa existens : quamobrē eum inter Pontifices non numerant quidā , ideò nomini numerum non facit . That is : Iohn was a woman , yet not known so to be but to one of her familiars , who lay with her . She was deliuered in the time of her Papacie : and because some recken her not among the Popes , there are no moe Iohns for her , then if she had neuer bene . Thus Palmerius . PAP . Be it so . But what saith Platina , I pray you , for your purpose ? PROT. Platina , e keeper of the Librarie in the Vatican , a man of great wit and learning , f writes thus : Iohannes Anglicus , ex Maguntiaco oriundus , malis artibus ( vt aiunt ) Pontificatum adeptus est : mentitus enim sexum cum foemina esset , adolescens admodum Athenas cum amatore docto viro proficiscitur , ibique praeceptores bonarū artium audiendo tantum profecit , vt Romam veniens paucos admodum etiam in sacris Literis pares haberet , nedum superiores . Legendo autē , & disputando doctè , & acutè , tantum beneuolentie & authoritatis sibi comparauit , vt mortuo Leone , in eius locum ( vt Martinus ait ) omnium consensu Pontifex crearetur : verùm postea à seruo compressa , cum aliquandiu ventrem occultè tulisset , tandem dum ad Lateranensem Basilicam proficisceretur , inter theatrum ( quod Colosseum vocant à Ner●nis Colosso ) & S. Clementem , doloribus circumuenta peperit : eoque loci mortua Pontificatus sui anno 2. mense 1. diebus 4. sine vllo honore sepelitur . The meaning of which is : Iohn English , borne at Mentz , got the Popedome ( as men say ) by euill meanes . For he dissembled his sexe , being a woman indeed : and whē she was verie yong , she went to Athens with a scholer , who was in loue with her . Where by hearing good Readers of all good learning , she profited so well , that when she came to Rome , she had few fellowes , but neuer a one her better . Now by reading , and disputing , learnedly and wittily , she got so much credite , that vpon Leo his death she was chosen in his roome ( as Martin writes ) by common consent . But within a while after she proued with child by one of her seruants ; & though she caried all closely for a time , yet at length as she went to S. Iohn Laterans , betweene the Theater ( called the Colosses ) and S. Clements , she fell in trauell , and was deliuered of a child , and died in the place . Which was in the second yeare , first moneth , and fourth day of her reigne . And she was buried without anie solemnitie . How like you this ? PAP . So and so . But Bernartius is of opinion , that this was neuer written by Platina , but was foisted into him . For I haue heard ( g saith he ) by Antonius Hetweeld , a man of good report , and an Alderman of Louaine , that one Engelbertus Boonius , a reuerend man , and Deane of a great Church in Germany , had oftentimes told him , that he had seene many ancient manuscripts of Platina in the Vatican at Rome , and perused them diligently , and yet found neuer a word in any of them touching Pope Ioane . PROT. That Deane had the lucke of it , if he light on such ancient manuscripts , as the Alderman of Louaine told Bernartius of . But how chanced it , that neither Onuphrius , nor Bellarmine , nor Baronius , who haue had as free accesse into the Vatican librarie as anie , could neuer light on these manuscripts ? How chanceth it , that none since Bernartius thought good to except in that sort against Platina ? Onuphrius , Bellarmine , and Baronius acknowledgement , that this storie is in Platina , perswades me , that either Bernartius belyed the Alderman , or the Alderman belyed the Deane , or the Deane made a foole of the Alderman . For questionlesse if there had bene any such manuscripts , some of them would haue found them out , and made it knowne to the world ere this . For they are glad of narrower fig-tree leaues to couer their nakednesse withall , then such manuscripts , if they were forth-coming . But perhaps you haue some better answer behind then this . PAP . I haue . For what could you reply , if I answered that which h Bellarmine hath vpon another occasion , to wit , that Platina wrote not by publike authoritie , nor tooke his historie out of the publike Registers of the Church ? PROT. I could quickly tell you , that both Bellarmine and you spake without booke . For , besides that Platina himselfe i professeth , that he writ by the commaundement of Sixtus the fourth , k Onuphrius cōfesseth , that he followed Damasus , Anastasius , and such Historiographers as had written before of the same matter . PAP . But what say you to l Florimondus , whose answer is , That Platina reported it rather to shew his reading , then for that he thought it true ? PROT. What is Florimondus reason for that ? PAP . Marrie if he had thought it true ( saith m Florimondus ) he would haue exaggerated it , and made the worst of it , that thereby he might haue reuenged himselfe of the Popes at whom he was angrie . For Paul the second ( as all men know ) racked him , and depriued him of all his dignities , and iustly cast him into prison , and kept him there as long as himselfe liued . PROT. That Paul the second racked Platina , and depriued him of his dignities , and kept him long in prison , is verie true . But that he cast him iustly into prison , is false . For n Trithemius witnesseth , that Paul the second dealt * cruelly therein . Yet suppose all to be true : doth it follow in your Florimondus logick , Paul the second wronged Platina , Ergo Platina hated all Popes ? And why not thē : Sixtus the fourth gratified Platina many waies : Sixtus the fourth set Platina at libertie , and restored him to his dignities : Ergo Platina loued all Popes ? If one mans kindnes could not work loue towards all : it is not likely that one mans vnkindnesse should breed an heart-burning against all : wherefore , notwithstanding this , we may wel think that Platina wrote as he thought . And the rather for that in the words following , * he professeth , that such a thing might well enough happen . What say you to Chalcocondilas the Athenian , whom I named next before Platina , as a witnes for vs in this controuersie ? PAP . I say , Chalcocondilas hath not this tale . PROT. What man ? are not these o his words ? Constat mulierem quandam in pontificatum esse subuectam , quia sexus ignorabatur . Nam Italiae Occidentales penè omnes barbam radunt . Cum autem illa mulier grauida esset facta , & ad festum siue sacrificium prodijsset , peperit infantem inter sacrificium in conspectu populi . Quapropter ne decipiantur iterum sedrem cognoscant , neque ambigant , Pontificis creati virilia tangunt , & qui tangit , acclamat : Mas nobis dominus est . That is , It is well knowne that a certaine woman was made Pope , by reason they knew not her sexe . For all ( almost ) in the westerne parts of Italy , shaue their beardes . Now when she was great with child , and came abroad to solemnize some day , or to say Seruice : as she was at seruice , she was deliuered of a child in the sight of all the people . Wherefore lest hereafter they should be deceiued in like sort , they make triall of his man-hood by touching , & he that toucheth proclaimeth : We haue a man to our Pope . PAP . I confesse these words are in Chalcocondilas translated into Latine . But I say with p Baronius , that though it be in the Latine , yet that was by Clauserus the translators bad dealing , who foisted it in . It was not written in the Greeke by Chalcocondilas . PROT. How proues Baronius that ? PAP . Nay he medles not with prouing of it , but refers you ouer to Florimondus for it . For Florimondus hath excellently well ( as q Baronius saith ) discouered Clauserus cosenage therin . PROT. How I pray you ? for I know you haue Florimon● at your fingers end . PAP . Why , r Florimondus compared Clauserus translation into Latin with a French mans translatiō of the same into French : and by that he saw this tale was not in Chalcocondilas , for ●e found nothing of it in the French mans translation . PROT. And is this Florimondus reason so much commended by Baronius , whereby he discouers Clauserus cosinage ? Nowe the Vicar of S. fooles be ghostly father to them both : for why might not the French man aswell leaue it out , as Clauserus put it in ? PAP . Oh , a faithfull translator ( as ſ Florimondus notes ) durst not haue left it out , if he had found it in the Greeke . PRO. Nor put it in , if he had not found it in the Greeke : durst he ? And why may not we hold Clauserus as faithfull an Interpreter , as the French man ? yea why may not we hold him more faithfull , seeing the French man was a Papist ? for t Papists hold it lawfull , in translating to omitt offensiue matter : and so doth no Protestant . If Florimondus or Baronius could haue named the place where a man might haue seene a Greeke copie , in which it is not , they had said somewhat to purpose ; but going about to disproue it by a translation of one of their fellowes , they deale ridiculously . PAP . Well , if this answer please you not , know further , that it matters not what Chalcocondilas writes of this matter . For in rendering the reason why she could not so well be knowne to be a woman , he writes : That in the westerne parts of Italie all ( almost ) shaue their beards : wherein he was grossy deceiued , as u Florimondus obserues . And if in that , why not in the other ? PRO. He was not deceiued in that of shauing . For by the Popes Canons , the Italian Priests , yea all the Priests of the Westerne Church , are to be shauen : Hic Papa ( Anicetus ) clericos comam & barbam radere in signum clericatus iussit , saith x Pontacus . That is , Pope Anicetus commanded the Clergie to shaue both their heads and their beards , in token that they were of the Clergie . And , Occidentalis Ecclesiae Clerū , ab ipsis Ecclesiae Christianae primordiis , barbam radendi morem tenuisse , * asserit Gregorius 7. Pope Gregorie the 7. auoucheth , that from the Apostles daies , the Westerne Clergie did shaue their beards . To whom y Durandus , who liued about the yeare 1280. subscribeth : for he acknowledgeth , that before , and in his time they were shaued , prouing the lawfulnesse of it out of Ezechiel , and shewing the mysteries that are imported by it . Yea z Iohannes Pierius Valerianus , ( as you shall heare hereafter ) witnesseth the same , imputing your error in electing Pope Ioane , to the ordinarie shauing of beards : because by that meanes a man could hardly know a man from a woman . Will not Florimondus lin lying ? What thinke you of Theodoricus de Niem one of your Popes Secretaries ? is it doubtfull whether I wrong him in calling him to be a witnesse in this case ? PAP . I thinke you wrong him . For a Florimondus reckons him among them who would readily haue taken vp such a tale against the Popes if he had heard of it , and yet did not . PROT. Florimondus is like himselfe , to say no worse , for these are b Theodoricus his owne words : Iohannes vocatus de Anglia , & fuit mulier de Moguntia nata , quae studuit Athenis sub virili habitu , & in tantum profecit in artibus ipsis , quòd tandē veniens Romam , & per bienniū in eadē schola artes ipsas liberales legit : & adeò sufficiens fuit , quòd etiam maiores & nobiliores vrbis , eius lectiones frequenter audierint . Ea postea in Papam concorditer eligitur à Romanis , & Papatum biennio & amplius tenuit : sed tunc diuitijs , ocio , & d●licijs vacans , non potuit continere sicut prius fecit , dum ardenter in paupertate posita literarum studio insistebat : vnde dum quadam die in Rogationibus cum clero Romano , sicut tunc moris erat , in solenni processione incederet , Papalibus ornata diuitijs & ornamentis , edidit filium suum primogenitum , ex quodam eius cubiculario conceptum , prope templum Pacis in vrbe , vt adhuc vetus statua marmorea illic posita figur atiue demonstrat . Vnde summi Pontifices , dum ad Lateranensem de Basilica Principis Apostolorum , & è contrà vadunt , illud rectum iter non faciunt , imò per alios vicos , per indirectum transeunt , illud aliquantulum prolongando . That , is Iohn called English , was a woman borne at Mentz , and she studied at Athens going in mans apparell , where she profited so well in the arts , that coming to Rome she read there the liberall sciences , and was held so sufficient a reader , that many of the better sort became her ordinarie hearers . Afterwards with one consent she was chosen Pope , and liued in it two yeares and vpward . But betaking her selfe more then before to idlenesse and pleasure , she could not liue continently as she did in her poore estate , when she plied her booke diligently : whereupon one day as she went with the Clergie and people of Rome ( according to the custome of that time ) in solemne procession , being attired in Papall manner , she was deliuered of her first begotten sonne , begotten by one of her chamber , neare the temple of Peace , which stands in the citie ; as is euident by an old marble Image which stands there to this day , to denote so much in a figure . And hereuppon it is , that when the Popes go from the Vatican to Saint Iohn Laterans , and backe againe , they go not the direct way thither , but by other streetes further about , and so make their iourney longer . Thus Theodoricus de Niem . PAP . I do not remember any particular answer vnto this mans testimonie . Wherefore go on , and let me heare what the rest say . Yet if you will for breuitie sake , you may passe ouer the testimonies of Petrarch , and Boccace , and Lucidus , and of our countrie man Higden , and some such others , because c Florimondus acknowledgeth that they speake to it . PROT. Content . What thinke you of Iohn of Paris , d who liued about the yeare 1280 , and read publikely with great commēdation in the Vniuersitie of Paris , both diuinity and humanitie . Beleeued not he this storie ? PAP . I cannot tell . What say you ? PROT. I thinke he did . For shewing how sometimes a man may lawfully dispute and take exception against the Pope , in respect of his person , he e notes , That such a person may be chosen as is not capable : vt si esset foemina , vel haereticus , sicut fuerunt aliqui , qui ob hoc non enumerantur in Catalogo Paparū . As for example , saith he , if he prooue a woman , or an hereticke , as some haue done , who in that respect are not reckoned in the catalogue of Popes . PAP . It seemes by his words ( I cannot deny ) that he alludes to such a matter . But did you not alledge Gotfridus Viterbiensis for proofe of the same ? I pray you let me heare him speake . for f D. Harding reckons him among them who say nothing of her . PROT. True , D. Harding doth so . But so doth no man else of his side , to my remembrance . Which is a great probabilitie that Harding belies him . But not to stand vpon probabilities , the historie it selfe puts the matter out of doubt : for betweene Leo the 4. and Benedict the 3. we g reade thus ( not in the margent , nor in any other letter , but in the currant of the text , and same letter ) Papissa Ioanna non numeratur . That is , Ioane the she Pope is not registred . Wherby it is manifest that he knew of her , though he said litle of her . PAP . When liued this Gotefridus ? and what maner of man was he ? PROT. He liued , as h Trithemius witnesseth , in the yeare 1185. and was a priest well seene in the holy Scripture , and not ignorant of humane knowledge : so that you haue litle cause to except against him either as a late writer , or a rash writer . But shall we at length heare what euidence Martinus Polonus affoords vs in this case ? PAP . With all my heart : for there are i diuers who hold opiniō that that which is in Polonus touching Pope Ioane , is cogd into him by Heroldus , who first printed him , or some such like fellow . PRO. Do they say so ? And can they shew me any booke written or printed , wherein it is not in k Polonus , thus ? Post hunc Leonem Iohannes Anglus , natione Maguntinus , sedit an . 2 , mens . 5 , diebus 4. Hic , vt asseritur , foemina fuit , & quum in puellari aetate à quodā suo amasio in habitu virili Athenas ducta fuit , in diuersis scientijs ita profecit , vt nullus sibi par inueniretur : adeò vt post Romae * triuium legens , magnos magistros , & discipulos & auditores haberet . Et quum in vrbe , & vita & scientia magnae opinionis esset , in Papam concorditer eligitur . Sed in Papatu per familiarem suum impregnatur : verùm tempus partus ignorans , quum de Sancto Petro in Lateranum tenderet , angustiata inter Coliseum & S. Clementis ecclesiam peperit , & postea mortua ibidem ( vt dicitur ) sepulta fuit . Et propterea quòd Dominus Papa semper eandem viam obliquat , creditur omninò à quibusdam , quòd ad detestationem facti hoc faciat . Nec ideo ponitur in Catalogo sanctorum Pontificum , tam propter muliebris sexum , quàm propter deformitatem facti . Which in effect sounds thus in English : After this Leo , Iohn English , by her countrev of Mentz , sate two yeares , fiue moneths , and foure dayes . This Pope ( as they say ) was a woman , & being caried in her youth in mans apparell to Athens , by one who was in loue with her , she profited so much in diuerse kinds of learning , that she had no fellow : in so much that coming to Rome , and reading there Grammer , Logicke and Rhetoricke , she had of the greatest Rabbins there many auditors and scholers . And being much esteemed of in that Citie , both for her life and learning , with one voice she was chosen Pope . Now in the time of her Papacy , she was got with child by some of her familiars : and not knowing she was so neere her reckoning , as she went from Saint Peters to Saint Iohn Lateran , betweene the Colosse and Saint Clements Church , she was deliuered of a child ; but died thereon , and was there ( as they say ) buried . And because the Lord the Pope doth alwayes shunne that way , it is thought by some , that he doth it in dislike of the accident . And she is not numbred among the Popes : partly because of her sexe , partly because of the filthinesse of her fact . Can they , I say , shew me any booke written or printed , wherein it is not in Polonus thus ? Doth not Onuphrius , and Bellarmine , and Bernartius , and Baronius , and N. D. with manie others of your side , who shew more wit then honestie in pleading this case , confesse that Polonus writ this ? & that this is to be found in Polonus ? PAP . Yes , the most do . But some , as I told you before , suspect the worst , and namely l D. Bristow ; for he reports that manie yeares agoe , a Protestant ( who was counted a great historian ) brought out the same Martinus in a faire writtē hand , to shew him this storie . And behold , she was not in the text , but in the margent , in an other hand . Whereupon when he saw that : Now I perceiue ( quoth he ) that this Author also faileth you . PROT. What Protestant was that , who had Martinus in so faire a written hand ? Can you tell me his name , or the place where he aboade , that I may enquire further , for satisfying my selfe in the truth of this matter ? PAP . Nay , I know no more then I haue told you . For the Doctor names no particular circumstance . But I make no question of the truth of it . For I presume that such a Doctor would not lie . PROT. Oh no. A popish priest lie ? that is not credible , no more then it is credible that m a priest of the order of Aaron would deceiue . But you know what a long storie that n Doctor tels , of one Margaret Iesop , who was cured of her lamenesse by the Sacrament of miracle that was kept at Saint Gudilaes Church at Bruxels : and how he amplifies euery point , and sets it out with all the circumstances , as though it were as true as the Gospell ; whereas o the Senate of Bruxels , by way of proclamation within a few yeares after , did discouer all to be but a packe of knauery . And therefore you must pardon me , if notwithstanding I giue him not the lie , yet I beleeue him not in this , cōsidering it is an old said saw : Qui versatur in generalibus , versatur dolosè : He that speakes onely in generality , meanes falsely . PAP . Well ; be it that Polonus writ this , yet know you that as p Bellarmine and q N. D. note , he was a very simple man : and that his manner of writing was vaine and nothing like to be true in r D. Hardings iudgement . Yea know , that he was onely famous for tales , for that is ſ Bernartius censure of him . PROT. See the rashnesse of our later generation of Papists . Polonus was an t Archbishop , and the Popes Poenitentiary . u He was learned in the holy Scriptures , and not ignorant of secular learning , he was one whom x Platina relied on much , for matters of historie , and thought worthy the commendation of great learning , and singular good life . He was the man , whom the Author of Fasciculus temporum , and Iacobus Bergomensis , two good historiographers , professed that they followed especially . And yet with our present Papists he is but a simple man , &c. Are you not ashamed of this exception ? PAP . No. For I will proue his simplicitie by many arguments . PROT. And how I pray you ? PAP . Why first by this , a That he would needs perswade vs that Pompilius , who was Numa his father , succeeded next to Romulus . For this is a meere tale , and yet he writes it is as a truth . PROT. Away , Away . Post Romulum regnauit Numa Pompilius , b saith Polonus . That is , Numa Pompilius reigned next after Romulus : but not Pompilius who was Numa his father . PAP . c Secondly he would perswade vs that Numa of a Tribune of the people , was made a king , which is another tale . PROT. He would not . For he d writes plainely , that Tribunes were ordained 16. yeares after the reigne of the Romaine kings , when the people complained of the hard measure that they receiued at the hands of the Consuls and of the Senate . He knew no such officers in the time of the kings . PAP . e Thirdly , he would perswade vs , that the Church which is now called Sancta Maria Rotunda , and in old time Pantheon , built by one Agrippa , was before that the house of one Cybele , supposed to be the mother of the gods : which is a toy , and a conceit of an idle head . PROT. This is false too . For f he saith onely , that Pantheon was built by Agrippa at Cybeles motion , who was the mother of the gods , which is confirmed for true by many others : he saith not , that it was first Cybeles , and afterwards turned to the honour of all the gods . PAP . h Fourthly , he would make vs beleeue , that that famous Theater made by Titus , was the temple of the Sunne ; which is meere foolery . PROT. No , No , Ante Coloseum fuit templum Solis , saith i Polonus : before the Colosse there was a tēple of the Sunne . But that Titus Theater was that temple , Polonus saith not . PAP . k Yet he saith , That the temple of Peace , commonly called the euerlasting Temple , fell the same night that Christ was borne : whereas it is plaine by all ancient histories , that it was not built till Vespasians dayes , a good many of yeares after Christ was borne . PROT. The ancient histories witnesse , that Vespasian built a temple of Peace : but that doth not argue , there was no Temple of Peace before . Some write , that Romulus built a temple of Peace . And a Clemens Alexandrinus writes , that Numa built a Temple of Peace . But it concerns not Polonus credit , whether there was any or none : for he saith not , that the Temple of Peace fell the same night that Christ was borne . He onely b saith , that the golden Image which Romulus set vp in his pallace , auowing , that it should not fall downe till a virgine was deliuered of a child , fell downe in the night wherein Christ was borne : though if he had said the other , the matter had not bene great . For he was neither the first , nor the last ; c many of good note both before , and since , haue writen as much : namely d Petrus Damianus , e Petrus de Natalibus , f Iacobus de Voragine , and the Author of that first sermon vpon Christs Natiuity , which is extant among the Sermons ascribed to g Bernard . If you haue no better arguments to prooue his simplicity , you may soone prooue your selfe a malicious slanderer . PAP . My arguments are good enough against him , as you shall heare more fully anon . But for the present tell me , what Marianus Scotus hath that makes for you . For I cannot thinke it is true , that Marianus Scotus hath this storie . PROT. You ieast I am sure . For do we not reade thus in h him ? Leo Papa obijt Kalend. Augusti . Huic successit Ioanna mulier , An. 2. mens . 5. dieb . 4. That is , Leo the Pope died in the Kalends of August . After him succeeded Ioane the woman , who sate 2. yeares , 5. monethes , and 4. dayes . And , which I would haue you note by the way , this Marianus i was borne in the yeare 1028. and k liued in great credite in his life time , and when he died was held a Saint : and at this day is reputed by your l Baronius , Nobilis Chronographus , a worthy Chronologer . PAP . m I do not deny but that you may reade so in some printed copies . But I deny , there is any such thing to be read in the more ancient hand-written originals , found in Flanders and other places . PRO. Do you not deny but that we may reade so in some printed ●●pies ? verily you might haue yeelded vnto me , that I may reade so in all printed copies , for you are not able to produce any printed copie ( except it be of yesterdaies printing ) wherein it is not . But you denie it to be in the more ancient hand-written originals found in Flanders and other places . And vpon what ground ( I pray ) denie you that ? for r Baronius your Cardinal Historiographer ; confesseth , that that ancient hand-written originall which the first printed copie followed , hath the storie . And it is so ordinary with you Papists to bely hand written originals , that he , who knowes you , cannot in wisedome beleeue any of you vpon your bare words . PAP . I haue good ground of that which I denie , I would you should well know . But first I challenge you to make proofe that we Papists , as you call vs , belie any hand-written originals , for me thinkes you therein charge vs deeply . PROT. The proofe of that is plaine . For first one of your Bishops , euen f B. Lindan , to make good his owne conceit of the right reading of the text Ioh. 21. 22. ( about which you know there hath bene hote contention ) which he maintained to be this . If so I will he remaine till I come , what is that to thee ? alledged for proofe thereof the testimony of an ancient hand-written originall kept at Aix in Germany : whereas in truth , it is not so read in that copie , but according to the Greeke : If I will that he remaine till I come , what is that to thee ? as t Francisous Lucas a man of your owne coate witnesseth . Againe the same B. Lindan u protested that he saw an ancient hand-written originall of the Psalmes in Hebrew , found in England : whereby it was apparant , that the Hebrew Bible is defectiue at this day in some points . Yet the same x Lucas , who came to the sight of the same copie , assures vs : That that Psalter makes rather to the contrary . In like manner y Onuphrius your Frier aboue named , alledged certaine hand-written originals of Maximus a Monke , by which it is manifest , as he saith , That Honorius the first condemned the Monothelites : yet Turrian the Iesuit , who had accesse to the selfe same manuscripts , confesseth ( as z Andradius relateth ) that Maximus make no mention of Honoruas condemning them , And whereas your great Goliah of Gath , a Bellarmine I meane , to proue that Honorius name was thrust by fraud into the sixt generall Councell among the Monothelites , a●●irmeth : that Anastasius ( which was then in written hand onely ) did testifie so much , now , that Anastasius is b printed , we set Bellarmines fraud . For Anastasius testifieth no such thing . c Anastasius himselfe reckons Honorius for a Monothelite . In this controuersie about dame Ioane , diuerse of your d proctors pleade as out of the hand-written originals of the same , Anastasius , that vpon Leo the 4. his death the sea was void but 15. daies , and then Benedict was chosen . Yet our printed Anastasius makes it euident , they belied the hand-written Anastasius : for in the printed , there is not a word of the number of daies betweene Leo his death , and Benedict his election . Lastly , whereas your grādhistoriographer Baronius , was informed by letters , from such as your selfe , that Zoticus was shot through with darts , and so martyred : and he who certified him thereof , assured him that he sent a true copie out of the hand-written originall acts of Zoticus , whereupon Baronius put it in print : e Baronius was glad to retract it since ; because ( though he light vpon the same Acts ) he could find no such thing in thē . How say you ? do not these particulars proue , that manie of you are excellent at facing matters out vnder pretence of hand-written originals : which when they come to viewing , make nothing for you ? PAP . If all be true you say , g it will proue ( I grant ) some bad dealing in some few persons among vs. But you shall neuer be able to proue as much by me : for I will proue whatsoeuer I say . PROT. Go to then : Make you proofe vnto me that this storie is not in the more ancient hand-written Originals of Marianus Scotus : and if you do so , I will yeeld . PAP . Will you so ? Then I argue thus : a if this story had bene in the most ancient hand-written Originals of Marianus Scotus , they who writ since his time would haue alledged him for proofe of it . But no man till now of late alledged him for proofe of it . Wherefore this was not in the most ancient hand-written Originals of Marianus Scotus . PROT. I deny the consequence of your proposition , viz. They who writ since Marianus his time would haue alledged him for proofe of it , if so be it had bene written in the most ancient hand-written Originals . For first , till of late , there was no controuersie about it , which made men lesse carefull to auouch their authors for it . Secondly , Marianus chronicle , till printing came to some perfection , was rare ( it seems ) and hard to come by . For b Polonus reckoning vp the bookes out of which he tooke his storie , names not Marianus among them . No more doth c Onuphrius where he reckons vp the Authours whom Platina followed . Onuphrius ( I say ) doth not reckon Marianus among them . Iacobus Bergomensis , and Wernerus Roleuinck , in their prefaces to their histories , wherein they shew whom they followed , passe by Marianus as a man vnknowne vnto them . And so do others . But for making of this matter plaine , tell me , haue you not heard , e that Anastasius the second , one of your Popes , would haue restored Acatius the Bishop of Constantinople , who stood excommunicated by some of your Popes predecessors , but that God preuented your Pope , and stroke him with a fearefull death ? PAP . Yes , I haue heard so much . But f I take it to be as vain a fable as this of Pope Ioane . PROT. Yet you cannot deny but that it is recorded for true , by g Anastasius Bibliothecarius , by h by Rhegino , by i Marianus Scotus , by k Sigebert , by l Luitprandus , by m Albo Floriacensis , by n Gratian , by o Polonus , by p Platina , by q Volateran , by r Iacobus Bergomensis , by ſ Wernerus Roleuinck , by t Trithemius , by u Charanza , by x Iohannes de Turrecremata , and y by others . PAP . No indeed I cannot deny that , for all these ( I know ) report it as true . PROT. Yea , and that in their most ancient hand-written Originals : do they not , for ought you haue seene òr heard to the contrary ? PAP . Good. But what of all this ? PROT. You shall see anone . In the meane time tell me onely whether they who writ since Rhegino , and Marianus his time , alledge Rhegino , or Marianus for the author of it ? PAP . a Bergomensis , Roleuinck , Trithemius , Turrecremate , b and such like , alledge Gratian for the author of it . But I do not remember that any historiographer alledgeth Rhegino , or Marianus Scotus , for it . PROT. If this touching Anastasius the second , may be in the most ancient hand-written Originals of Rhegino , and Marianus Scotus , though they , who haue written since their times , alledge them not for authors of it : why may not the other touching Pope Ioane , be in the most ancient hand-written Originals of Marianus Scotus , though they who writ since his time , alledge not him for the authour of it ? Haue you not another argument ? PAP . Yes : c for Bellarmine writes : That he who set forth Krantius Metropolis at Colen in the yeare 1574. doth witnesse , In antiquissimis exemplaribus Mariani Scoti non haberi Ioannem foeminam . That in the ancient copies of Marianus Scotus there is no mention of Ioane the woman . PROT. And what was he that set forth Krantius , can you tell me that ? doth Bellarmine , or d N. D. ( who twangs on the same string with Bellarmine ) name him ? PAP . No , but what is that to the purpose ? He , whosoeuer he was , witnesseth so much . And is not that enough ? PROT. No beleeue me : No reason that a namelesse fir should be credited against all printed copies , especially if it be true , which e Bellarmine saith , in another case : Author sine nomine , est sine authoritate , A man without a name , is without credit ; f and , Canon à concilio cuius ne nomen quidem extet , facilè contemni potest . A Canon out of a Councel whose name is not knowne , may very well be skorned . But would you know why Bellarmine and N. D. did not name him ? Questionlesse , not for that they knew not what his name was : but because he was but a base fellow , a Printer , a poore Batchler of the law . A man of small esteeme in the world : for he is named in the first page of the booke , Gerwinus Calenius Lippiensis , and his whole stile is no greater , then Legum Licentiatus . And what was such a fellow , to carry away such a matter as this , vpon his bare word ? But which is more to be marked , this fellow barely saith ( without any proofe in the world ) that the manuscripts of Marianus Scotus , which are extant , discouer the falshood of them who put this story into the printed Marianus implying , that all Manuscripts , not the ancient only , want it . Which neither Bellarmine , nor N. D. durst or dare auouch , the contrary being confessed directly by Baronius , and may out of themselues be gathered by consequence . Besides , he saith as much for clearing of Sigebert , as Marianus Scotus , for g these are his very words : Quae hic Author de Iohanne foemina refert , in odium Romanorum pontificum conficta fuisse ab illis , quos ipse deceptus sequitur , vt alios omittamus quos Onuphrius in Platinam scribens recenset , testantur Marianus Scotus & Sigebertus , quorum quae supersunt M. S. exemplaria , fraudem illorum detegunt qui eorum impressis voluminibus id inseruer̄t . That this , which the author hereof reports touching Pope Ioane , is but counterfet stuffe , deuised to make the Pope odious : to say nothing of such proofes as Onuphrius giues in his Annotations vpon Platina , Marianus Scotus and Sigebert do testify : whose Manuscripts remaining on record , discouer their falshood , who haue chopt this tale into their printed volumes . And yet neither Bellarmin , nor N. D. durst alledge him to proue that Sigebert is corrupted . PAP . Peraduenture they durst haue alledged him so that purpose also , though they did not : for doubtlesse there is no such storie in Sigebert . PROT. Why ? But all the printed copies do conuince you of shamelesse lying , in so saying . For thus h they reade : Iohannes Papa Anglicus , fama est hunc Iohannem foeminam fuisse & vni soli familiari cognitam qui eam complexus est , & grauis facta peperit Papa existens . Quare eam inter Pontifices non numerant quidam , ideo nomini numerum non facit . Iohn the English Pope . The report is , that this Iohn was a woman , and that one only , who vsed to lie with her , knew so much : and that at length , euen in the time of her Papacy she was deliuered of child . Whereupon it is that some reckon her not among the Popes , and that there is not one Pope Iohn the more in number for her . What say you , is it not euen thus ? PAP . I confesse the printed copies make for you in this also . But in the ancient , true , and approued copies of Sigebert in writing , this which you talke of is not . Aliquis impudens nebulo interpolauit scripta eius . Some paltry fellow hath bene tampering with his writings , i as Bernartius notes . Marry whether it was Geffrey the Monke , or one Robert , who continued the story of Sigebert for some years , I know not : but betweene them it is as k Onuphrius supposeth . And I am sure Sigebert neuer writ it . l Cui rei adserendae fidus , & adpositus mihi testis est Gilbertus Genebrardus , which is witnessed very fully by Genebrard . PROT. The m Canonists , when Popes alledge Popes for proofe , do note : that it is , familiaris probatio . Meaning such belike , as that in the prouerb , Aske my fellow if I be a theefe . And so me thinkes is this of yours , which is fetched from your fellow Genebrard . But what saith Genebrard for your purpose ? PAP . n Genebrard saith , there be many Manuscripts of Sigebert , wherein this is not . PROT. Yea , but that is the question . And how doth Genebrard proue it ? Names he any place where they are , or any person who hath seene them ? PAP . No not he , but o N. D. doth , for in the Monasterie of Gemble in Flaunders , there is extant ( saith N. D. ) the originall of Sigebert , which wants this storie . PROT. What ? the originall of Sigebert ? Who told N. D. that the original of Sigebert was in that Monastery ? or was he there and saw it with his owne eyes ? PAP . N. D. saith nought of that . But you may haue further proofe thereof out of p Bellarmine : for he writes that Molanus a Doctor of Louaine saw the copie . PROT. But Bellarmine saith not , that Malanus iudged it to be the originall of Sigebert : which yet N. D. auoucheth as confidently , as if he had held the candle while Sigebert wrote it . Neither doth Bellarmine tell vs , to whom Molanus told this : or in what booke he writ this . So that yet there is no iust proofe brought , that so much as one copie wants it , much lesse that it is foisted into such copies as haue it . PAP . Is there not ? hearken then to Florunondus , a who writes , that one Protasius , the credit of the order of Franciscans , sware to him , that he saw such a booke in that Monasterie ; and that reading it all ouer , he found no word touching such a Pope . PROT. This would haue moued me somewhat to beleeue , that the copie in that Monasterie wants this , if Florimondus had sworne for the satisfying of his reader , touching the truth of his report : as he vrged the Franciscan to sweare to him for the iustifying of that which he told . But Florimondus deliuers it barely of his word . And I haue found him oft false of his tongue . Wherefore I cannot trust him . b Florimondus would make vs beleeue , that Michael the Emperours letter sent to Pope Nicolas , wherein the Emperour obiecteth whatsoeuer might found to the disgrace of the Romane sea , is extant to this day : yet c Baronius testifieth that they are not extant . He writes , that the Pope burnt them . Yea Florimondus himselfe in another d chapter ( forgetting the prouerbe , Mendacem esse memorem oportet ) confesseth , that they are lost . Yet be it so , that the copie which is in that Monasterie wants this . Vnlesse Florimondus can proue that it is the originall , or truly copied out of the originall , he speaks not to the point , as I shall shew by and by . PAP . Yea but he proues that it is the very originall it selfe . For there ( as e he saith ) Sigebert liued , there he wrote this booke with his owne hand , there he left it at his death as a monument of his loue . There it is shewed by the Monkes to such as come thither , for arare and ancient monument . PROT. Sigebert liued not there , when he writ that book . He writ both that , and many others , in the Monastery of S. Vincentius , within the citie of Metensis . Which I speake not of mine owne head , as Florimondus doth , but out of f Trithemius . For in Trithemius you may reade so . PAP . Yet you cannot disproue Florimondus in that which he saith of his dying there : and bequeathing of that booké by his will , to that Monasterie for a legacie . PROT. No indeed . But neither can he proue his owne saying . Now you know that Actori , non reo , incumbit probatio : The plaintiffe , & not the defendant , must bring in his proofe . That which is nakedly affirmed , is sufficiently answered whē it is barely denied . Si dicere , probare est : pari ratione , inficiari , refutare est : as you may reade in g Bellarmine . PAP . Why , but the Monkes of that house do shew it to all commers as Sigeberts owne . PROT. That I beleeue . For I haue h read of a Monk , who gaue out , that he had brought from the East some of the sound of the bels which hung in Salomons temple . i And that he could shew among other reliks , some of the haires which fell from the Seraphicall Angell , when he came to imprint the fiue wounds of Christ in S. Francis bodie . And I haue k read of others , who shew the Pilgrims that go to Ierusalem a three cornerd stone , and beare them in hand that it is that very stone whereof l Dauid spake , saying , The stone which the builders refused , is the head of the corner . PAP . Tush , those Monkes do but cozen folkes . PROT. No more do the Monkes of Gemble , in my opinion : though it may be , they are rather cozened , then cozeners . For many a Papist perswades himselfe he hath that , which indeed he hath not . As for example . Many Papists are perswaded they haue that Syndon wherein Christs body was lapped , when it was interred , wherein ( as they say ) is to be seene to this day the picture of Christ : whereas indeed ( m by some of their owne mens confessions ) they haue but one made after that fashion . Againe , many are perswaded , they haue one of those nailes , wherewithall Christ was nailed on the crosse : n whereas they haue but one fashionèd after that naile ; or at most , some naile wherewithall some Martyr of Christ was tormented . And in like maner are they themselues deceiued in their conceit of other relickes . But that which makes me most suspicious of your Monkes of Gemble , is this . I haue read , that among many other goodly relickes which are shewed at Rome by the Popes commandement , there is a Bible shewed , which they say was written by S. Ierome himselfe , euen with his owne hands : and yet one of your owne profession professeth freely , that he perusing it throughly , found it was written by the commandement of one king Robert , and by a bungling scriuener . Illum ego diligentius inspectum comperiscriptum esse iussu regis ( vt opinor ) Roberti , chirographo hominus imperiti , saith a Valla. Now I suppose , if we had accesse to Gemble in Flanders , perhaps we might find as much for discouering of their falshood , in that which they report of the originall of Sigebert : as your fellow found for the discouering of the others falshood , who gaue out , that the Bible which they shewed was of S. Ieroms writing . PAP . Suppose it be not the originall of Sigebert which is at Gemble : yet you will not denie ( I hope ) but that it is some ancient copie , which they esteeme so much of . PROT. Be it so . But will you thereupon conclude , that the Author neuer writ it ? I presume you are not so ignorant , but you know , that words , sentences , and memorable accidents , haue sometimes by negligence , sometimes by wilfulnesse , bene left out of copies : as for example , the words ( no not the Sonne of man , Marke 13. 32. whereon your b Iesuites as vpon a chiefe foundation , build their doctrine of aequiuocation ) were wanting in many Greeke copies , as c S. Ambrose testifieth : and yet both you and we do hold opinion , that they were set downe by the Author in the first copie . In like sort , the storie touching Christs sweating agonie , and the Angels comforting him , Luke 22. 43. 44. was not to be found in many copies , as d Hilary and e Ierome witnes : which came to passe , not for that it was neuer written by S. Luke , but ( as f Bellarmine in part , and g Sixtus Senensis more fully notes ) for that some simple Catholickes , fearing it made for the Arians , razed it out of their bookes . So the storie of the adulterous woman , in Iohn the 8. was h wanting in many Manuscripts both Greeke and Latin , and namely in a Manuscript of i Eusebius : yet that doth nothing preiudice the truth of our printed copies at this day , in which it is : no not in the opinion of you that are Papists . For as k Bellarmine proueth out of Austine , this historie was blotted out of many books , by the enemies of Gods truth . In much like sort ( it seemeth ) as the words of Aelfricus , which make against transubstantiation , were cut out of a fragment of an Epistle of his , in the library of Worcester , as l M. Foxe proueth euidently . And as this story of Pope Ioane is cut out of a very faire * Manuscript of Ranulfus Cestrensis , which is to be seene l at this day in the library of New Colledge in Oxford . PAP . Is this storie torne ( indeed ) out of Ranulfus Cestrensis in New Colledge in Oxford ? Who thinke you was so mad ? PROT. Why , who but a Papist ? For do not m they giue direction , that quae famae proximorum , & praesertim Ecclesiasticorum , & Principum detrahunt , corrigentur at que expurgentur ? That such things should be altered or put out , which tend to the discredite of the Clergie ? And doth not this touch at quicke their Ecclesiasticall state ? Doth not Posseuine aduise , that the n note in Iohn Neuisan the Lawyer , which mentioneth Pope Ioane , should be razed out ? Dele ( o saith he ) quia Iohannes haec foemina chimera est , & impostura calumniatorum : Blot it out , or rend it out , quoth Posseuine : for it is but a fiction , and a forgery . PAP . You are too suspitious of Papists . But if these answers , whereon I haue hitherto insisted , please you not , let it be as you would haue it , that all these Historians writ so . p yet I denie , that any credit is herein to be giuen unto them , because they report it but by hearesay , with vt asseritur . PROT. That is false . For Marianus Scotus reports it simply without vt asseritur , as before I shewed . And Laonicus Chalcocondylas reports it as a certaine truth , saying , Constat , &c. So doth Rauisius Textor , and q others . PAP . That which you say of Marianus Scotus , is true , if we were to be iudged by the printed copie , which Heroldus set out . But I can assure you , that Heroldus vnconscionably corrupted this place , and many others . For it is thus u written in the written copie , after which the first edition was printed . Ioh anne●s ●ui vt asseritur , fuit mulier . Iohn , who as the report goes , was a woman . PROT. So your x Cardinall Baronius would make vs beleeue , ( I grant ) but he brings no other proofe thereof then teste meipso . Which how euer it may go for proofe among Princes , yet is no proofe among scholers . And for my part without proofe , I beleeue nothing , whosoeuer he be that speakes it , especially if he be a Papist . For as y Sigismund the Emperour said of Iudian the Cardinall , Legate at the Councell of Basil , when one commended him highly to him : Tamen Romanus est . Yea but he is a Romaine : so I may say of any Papist , reporting things vnknown : yea , but he is a Papist . Yet be it so , as Baronius saith it is . Why may it not be true though it be deliuered with vt asseritur ? PAP . Why ? z Because lies are commonly so soothed . PROT. Indeed many lies passe in such generall termes . As for example : Men say , a saith your Legend , that S. Patrik droue with his staffe all the venimous beasts out of Ireland : and that he obtained of the Lord , that no Irish man should abide the coming of Antichrist . The former of which b Harpsfield Cope confesseth to be a lie : and so I thinke al the generation of you Papists thinke of the later . Else , why do none of your great Maisters alledge it to cleare your Pope from being Antichrist ? Men say , saith Nangiacus as * Genebrard reporteth : that Kentish-men haue tailes like bruite beasts , because their ancestors mocked Austine the Monke when he came to preach vnto thē . Now that this is a lie wel worthie of a whetstone , your self ( I hope ) wil acknowledge . Yet truth now and then is so deliuered . When Boniface the Martyr was demanded on a time , whether it was lawfull at the administration of the Lords Supper , to vse a wodden chalice : it is said he answered thus , saith c Duaren : Olim aurei sacerdotes ligneis vasis , nunc lignei aureis vtuntur . In old time golden Priests vsed wodden chalices , now wodden Priests vse golden chalices . Marke , ( fertur ) it is said , saith Duaren , yet d no question but he answered so . In like maner , it is written , that Pius the 2. was wont to say , Mariage was vpon iust reason forbidden Priests , but now vpon better reason to be restored to Priests . e Of which his saying there is made no question , as may appeare by this , that a f Iesuite replieth onely to it , That it was recanted by him , and denieth not that it was spoken of him . That Alexander the 3. trampled the Emperour Fredericke vnder his feete , and commnded one to say that which is in the g Psalmes , Thou shalt walke vpon the Lion and Aspe , the yong Lion and the Dragon shalt thou tread vnder thy feete : is h recorded by some with , vt fertur : and yet i they haue litle to say for themselues , who call the truth thereof in question . That merry Cardinall , who seeing after the death of Clemens the 4. that his fellow Cardinals called still for the assistance of the holy Ghost , and yet could not agree vpon the election of a new Pope , k cried out : Domini , discooperiamus tectum camerae huius , quia spiritus sanctus nequit ad nos per tot tecta ingredi . My good maisters , I pray you let vs vntile the roofe of this roome : for I feare the holy Ghost cannot get to vs thorow so many slates : is meerely l reported vpon election of Gregory to haue made these verses . Papatus munus tulit Archidiaconus vnus , Quem patrem patrum fecit discordia fratrum . Yet who doubts but he made them ? m Nicolas Clemangis Archdeacon of Baion in France , doth write vpon hearesay . That when Balthasar commonly knowne by the name of Iohn the 23. held a Councel at Rome , and caused , as the maner is , before the first Session , a Masse to be said for the assistance of the holy Ghost : presently vpon the Councels setting of themselues downe , and Balthasars aduancing himselfe into his chaire of estate : a dreadfull Owle ( which is ordinarily thought to presage some euill towards ) comes out of her hole , crying after her euill fauoured fashion , and flying to the middle balk of the Church , staring iust in Balthasars face , to the great astonishment of Balthasar himself , and all the whole Councel , so that he was glad to breake off for that time . Yea he writes , that at the next Session she appeared againe , staring in the Popes face as before , and could not be feared away with flinging of stickes , or with whooping , till one feld her with a sticke , and so killed her . Yet no man hath cause to doubt of the story , for he had it of a trusty man , and a faithfull friend of his , who assured him , of his credite , that it was true . That o S. Cyril intreated the Pope , he might say the Morauians their seruice in a knowne language : and that when there was some sticking at the motion , a voice was heard , as it were , from heauen , saying , Omnis spiritus laudet Dominum , & omnis lingua confiteatur ei : Let euery thing that hath breath praise the Lord , and let euery tongue confesse his holy name : vpon hearing whereof , the Pope granted S. Cyril his suite : is but reported with , ferunt . And yet though p Costerus in that respect make some question of the truth of it , q Ledesma , and r Bellarmine receiue it for true . That the worst Christians in Italy are the Romanes : that of the Romanes , the Priests are the most wicked ; and of the Priests , the leudest are made Cardinals ; & of the Cardinals , the badst chosen to be Pope ; it is ſ written , but with asseritur . Yet to them that are skilled in histories , and haue obserued the course of the world at Rome , there are not many things more certaine . In Bauaria palàm ferunt , Iesuitas dolium in Collegium subuexisse , è cuius fundo effracto , meretrix in publicas plateas prolapsa sit , faith t Hassen Muller . They say openly in Bauaria , that the Iesuites caused a tub to be carried vnto their Colledge , which breaking by the way , a wench dropt out of the one end of it , in the middest of the streete . And why may not this be true , though it go but by report ? The Papists beleeue as true , farre more incredible reports then this , which concerne Protestants . But to conclude this point . Doth not u Harpsfield Cope auouch , that if men reiect stories upon this quirke , that they are related with ferunt & dicitur , they will soone marre all ? You had best deuise a better answer then this , for feare that you be one of them who marre all . PAP . Take you no care for that . Yet in way of further answer to Polonus , who is taken as x N. D. writes ) to haue bene the first relator of this fable . y I say , there are so many incongruities , simplicities , absurdities , varieties , and contrarieties in his verie narration of it , as it discouereth the whole matter to be a meere fable , and fiction indeed , and him a verie simple man. For he begins his narration thus : Post Leonem sedit Iohannes Anglus , natione Margantinus , After Leo the 3. Iohn English , by nation a Margantine . But where this country of Margantia is , no man can tell . PROT. N. D. whose words you vse , doth Martinus Polonus open wrong , in reporting this of him . For first , he saith not that she sate after Leo the 3. but Leo the 5. Secondly , he cals her not Margantine , but Maguntine , which is witnessed by z Onuphrius himselfe , who cites his words to his best aduantage , that he might haue the rather whereat to cauill . If any blind booke haue Margantine , it is but the Scriueners falt , such as is committed once and againe in that booke of N. D. whence this sweete cauill is taken . a Where for Magdeburgians , we reade Magdebugians . For in Polonus there is an , r , too much , and in N. D. there is an , r , too few . Now where Maguntia is euery can man tell , to wit , in Germany . PAP . b Yea but it followeth in Polonus : Quae alibi legitur fuisse Benedictus 3. which otherwhere is read to be Benedict the 3. So as this man seemeth to confound him with Benedict the 3. and consequently ascribeth to him the same time of his reigne that is assigned to Benedict , to wit , 2. yeares and 5. moneths . And yet presently after he saith , that Benedictus was a Romane , sonne to Prateolus , &c. PROT. The substance of this your answer is false , and feigned of N. D. his owne head : for in Polonus there are no such words as ( Quae alibi legitur fuisse Benedictus 3. ) neither ascribeth he to her the same time of reigne that is assigned to Benedict . For he ascribes to Benedict 2. yeares and 5. moneths : whereas he ascribes to Pope Ioane 2. yeares 5. moneths and 4. daies , or ( as some c of you say ) but 2. yeares , 1. moneth and 4. daies . N. D. might with as great reason charge Anastasius to confound Leo the 2. and Benedict the 2. his next successor : because d he ascribeth to Leo the 2. the same time of his reigne ( within 5. daies ) which he ascribes to Benedict the 2. Questionles , e Polonus ascribes to Cl●mens , 9 yeares , 2. moneths , and 10. daies : and so he doth to his next successour Anacletus , without difference : yet he confounds them not . Polonus ascribes to Celestinus primus , 8 yeares , and 9 daies : and so he doth to Sixtus the 3. his next successour , and yet confounds them not . PAP . f Why , but what a foolish speech is it of Polonus , when he saith , Iohn an English man , by nation of Maguntia . For Maguntia is in Germany , as you told me before . And how could she being an English woman , be of Maguntia ? PROT. You runne counter : she was no English woman , neither doth Polonus say she was : she was Ioane English ( as g N. D. truly translated , Iohannes Anglus , in Polonus ) but not Ioane , or Iohn of Englād . English was her sir-name , as h Fasciculus Temporum obserued ; but England was not her countrey , her countrey was Maguntia , that is , Mentz . There are many who carrie the name of Scot , French , Gascoigne , Westfaling , Holland , Welch , which were not born in those countries , but in seuerall shires in England . Guitmundus , who wrote against Berengarius , was * Norman by name , but not by his countrey , saith i Posseuine . PAP . a Such writers as liued the very time wherein this matter is pretended to haue fallen out , ( that is to * say ) with Leo the 4. and with Benedict the 3. from the yeare 847 , to 858. write nothing hereof at all . Ergo , there was no such matter . PROT. Who are these writers ( I pray you ) of whom you speake ? PAP . The b first and chiefest is Rabanus Maurus , Abbor of the Monasterie of Fulda , wherein this Pope Ioane of yours ( they say ) lost her maiden-head . Rabanus Maurus writes nothing of her . PROT. Nor of any other particular Pope : doth he ? Rabanus c wrote commentaries vpon the whole Scripture , and some other Treatises : but he wrote no historie . Though if he had , yet could he not haue written of this Pope Ioane , for her knauery was not discouered till after the yeare 855. in * which Rabanus died . Rabanus liued not to heare of her deliuery of a child , as she went in progresse . PAP . Rabanus died in the yeare 856. and not in the yeare 855. as d Baronius notes . Trithemius who noted out the yeare 855 for the yeare of his death , was deceiued , and so are you . PROT. Whether Trithemius was deceiued in assigning the yeare 855. for the yeare of Rabanus death , I meane not to stand arguing with you , because it is all one to my purpose though he died in the yeare 856. For Pope Ioane was not discouered till after the yeare 856. And therefore sith he died in that yeare , by Baronius and your owne confession , he could not write of her . PAP . e Strabus , whose fellow Monke bereaued her of her maiden-head , as the tale goes : Strabus ( I say ) writes nothing of her . PROT. Strabus writes nothing of his fellow Monkes , who by the instigation of the diuell , wearied Rabanus of his Abbotship , through their continuall grumbling against him , for giuing himselfe more to the studie of Diuinitie , then to pleading about their worldly businesses . Yet we reade thereof in f Trithemius and in g others . Wherefore it doth not follow , Strabus wrote not of Pope Ioane : Ergo there was no Pope Ioane . Especially if it be considered , that Strabus wrote no history , but glosses vpon the Bible , and liued not til Pope Ioanes dayes , but died about the yeare 840. For how could he write of that which fell out after his death ? Who is your next man ? PAP . h Haimo , who writ a booke of vertue and vice , writes nothing of her . PROT. No maruell : for he died in the yeare 834 , at least twentie yeares before she was Pope . If Haimo had written of her , his writing had bene as strange , as her deliuerie of a child . PAP . How proue you that Haimo died in the yeare 834 ? For by i Baronius , it should seeme , he died in the yeare 853. PROT. Though Haimo had died in the yeare 853 , it helps not you in this case . For till after that time , this Ioane was not made Pope . But that Haimo died in the yeare 834 , it is witnessed by k Trithemius , and acknowledged by l Sixtus Senensis , and by Posseuine . Wherefore go on . PAP . Anastasius Bibliothecarius , m a man of great reputation , that liued in both these Popes times , and n was Secretary to them both , and was present at both their elections , and wrote the particulars there●f , writes nothing of her , but sheweth among other points , that Leo the 4. died the 16. day before the Kalends of August , and that all the Clergie of Rome gathered together , and with one consent did choose Benedict the third , &c. PROT. Where reade you that Anastasius was Secretarie to both these Popes ? or that he was present at their elections ? o Platina writing of an accident which fell out in the yeare 884 , notes , that Anastasius at that time was a man of good account in Rome . But neither he , nor any man else notes that he was Secretarie to Leo the 4. and Benedict the 3 , or that he was present at their elections . p Bellarmine himselfe durst say no more , but that he was present at the election of many Popes , who either liued before or after this woman Pope . He durst not say , that he was at the election of these , as you say . Againe , who told you that Leo died the 16. day before the Kalends of August ? Anastasius q writes , that Leo the 4. Papa obdormiuit in domino 16. Calend. August . But that is but the 15. day before the Kalends of August , and not the 16. Thirdly , whereas to winne credit to this your Author , you commend him as a man of great reputation , it is worth the noting , ( which is noted r by one of your owne friends ) that in the age wherein he liued , doctissimi censebantur , qui velsolam Grammaticam callerent : they were counted great Clerks , who were skilled so much as in the Grammar . ſ That in this Chronicle of Anastasius , the phrase is harsh , rude , and barbarous . That many things are auowed therein , which are farre from true . That therein there are many errors in the account of time , and some things wherein he crosseth himselfe . Which censure , for the maine point , is approued by many of your owne mothers children . For many Papists , in many particulars condemne it . As for example , t this man of great reputation reckens Anicetus before Pius , and Anterus before Pontianus . Whereas u your Chroniclers recken Pius before Anicetus , and Pontianus before Anterus . x This man of great reputation records , that Marcellinus ( one of your Popes ) was brought to offer incense vnto Idols , and that he did so : whereas your y Baronius inclines rather vnto the contrary . This man of great reputation z records , that the priests of Rome , by the aduice of Liberius , chose Felix a priest to be a Bishop in stead of Liberius : whereas a your Chroniclers of greatest esteeme maintaine , that Felix was chosen priest by hereticks onely , and not by consent of Liberius . This man of great reputation b records , that Liberius subscribed to the Arian heresie : which neither c Pighius nor d Onuphrius can abide to heare of . This man of great reputation e records , that Anastasius the second Pope of that name , communicated with Photinus the hereticke , who was all one with Acacius the Eutychian . And that he purposed with himselfe to restore Acacius , who was deposed by his predecessors : but could not effect it , because God strucke him with sudden death . All which is false and fabulous in f Bellarmines opinion . This man of great reputation g records , that after Marcellinus , the Bishopricke of Rome lay lea , seuen yeares , six moneths , and fiue and twentie daies : whereas by h Baronius it lay lea but 25 daies in all . This man of great reputation i records , that the Crosse of Christ was found in Eusebius the Popes daies , about the yeare 310 : whereas by k Baronius it was not found till the yeare 326. This man of great reputation l reckens Honorius the first among the hereticks called Monothelites : whereas the m most of your side , and by name n Bellarmine , would gladly cleare Honorius from this imputation . This man tels vs , that Alexander the first sa●e but eight yeares , and a few odde moneths : whereas p Baronius tels vs , that he sate ten yeares and odde moneths . o This man q giueth to Pius , 19 yeares , foure moneths , and three daies : whereas r Baronius giues him but ten yeares . This man ſ makes Soter sit nine yeares , and vpward : whereas by t Baronius he sate not full foure yeares . This man u saith , that Anterus sate 12 yeares , 1 moneth , and 12 dayes : whereas x Baronus saith , he sate not a whole moneth . This man y alloweth Denis but two yeares and a little more , whereas z Baronius allowes him 11 yeares and more . This man a writes , that Stephen the fifth sate 7 yeares , and 7 moneths : whereas by b Baronius reckoning he sate but seuē moneths , and two or three odde dayes . And so in many other things , this man of great reputation alloweth of that , wherof you allow not , & disalloweth that which you allow . And therefore what reason haue you to presse vs with his authoritie in this controuersie ? PAP . Great reason . For though he missed sometimes the truth , yet he aymed alwayes at it : and though he was vnkindly dealt withall by some of the Popes , yet he was not carried away with malice , and moued thereby , as many are , to write an vntruth , PROT. What ? Was Anastasius , the man of great reputation , vnkindly dealt withal by some of the Popes ? Who told you that tale ? PAP . I had it of c Florimondus . And I thinke he was induced to say so , because we reade in Leo the 4. his time , our Anastasius was degraded by Pope Leo , and a Councell of 67. Bishops . PROT. That Anastasius , who was degraded by Leo the 4. and the Councell , was he ( as d Platina sheweth ) who stood vp Antipope against Benedict the 3. It was not this Anastasius , Which you may learne of him , who made the Index Alphabeticall , for the more readie finding out of the most memorable points in Anastasius Chronicle : for e he distinguisheth Anastasius Bibliothecarius , from Anastasius degraded by Leo , and set vp in opposition against Benedict the 3. But let Anastasius be of as great reputation as you are disposed to haue him of . How soone after Leo his death , doth Anastasius report , that the clergie chose Benedict the 3 ? Can you tell me that ? PAP . Yea. The Sea was voide after Leo the 4. iust 15. daies , and no more . And then , not Ioane , but Benedict the 3. was chosen . PROT. Who told you so ? PAP . Marry , p Onuphrius , q Bellarmine , r Bernartius , ſ Florimondus , and t Papyrius Massonus . For they say that these are Anastasius his owne words : Sanctissimus Leo Papa 4. obdormiuit in Domino 16. Calend. Aug. sepultus ad Sanctum Petrum , & cessauit Episcopatus dies 15. Quo mortuo , mox omnis Clerus Romanae sedis , vniuersi proceres , cunctusque populus ac senatus congregati sunt , &c. vno conamine Benedictum Pontificem promulgauerunt . That is , The most holy Pope Leo the 4. died in the Lord the 16. of the Calends of August , and was buried at S. Peters , and the Bishopricke was voide 15. daies . Now presently vpon his death , the whole Romane Clergie with all the nobles , and commons , and officers of the citie met : and as one man agreed that Benedict should be their Pope . PROT. They all lie falsly . For the words ( Et cessauit Episcopatus dies 15. ) are not to be found ( as before I told you ) in Anastasius . So that whatsoeuer they build vpon this circumstance ( as the most of their building is ) is built vpon a false foundation , and therefore cannot stand . Yet besides I would haue you know that Anastasius purposely passed ouer in silence diuers things , which touched the Popes . For , Multa de Sergio desiderari videntur apud Anastasium , u saith Baronius . Anastasius wants many things touching Sergius . Againe , Iohannis 8. res gestae desiderantur apud Anastasium , fortassis praetermissae ob odiosam Photij restitutionem , saith the same x Baronius . The acts of Iohn the 8. are wanting in Anastasius , perhaps because he was loth to record that odious restoring of Photius . y Anastasius forbeares to speake of Luitprandus sacking S. Peters Church , which is without the wals of Rome . And so doth Paulus Diaconus too . Not for that he was ignorant of that fact , sith he liued in the same time , but for that he was loath by telling truth to discredite Luitprandus . Wherefore let vs leaue Anastasius , and come vnto the next , who liuing in those dayes , passeth ouer Pope Ioane in silence . PAP . z Ado Bishop of Vienna , who liued at the same time , hath not a word of this your Pope Ione . PROT. Ado liued not at the same time , nor neare the same time , if either a Gesner , or b Posseuinus , or c Laurentius de la Barre , or * Angelus Rocca may be credited . For he ( as they say ) wrote a briefe Chronicle from the beginning of the world to his own time , to wit , to the yeare 1353. Wherfore it is not much materiall whether he misse her , or mention her . Say on . PAP . d Theophanus Freculphus wrote in those dayes an historie from the beginning of the world to his owne time : and yet he writes nothing of her . PROT. If Freculphus had written an historie of that length , yet there was litle reason why he should haue mentioned her . For we * reade not that he liued aboue the yeare 840. But indeed his historie goes not so farre . He writ onely to the yeare of Christ 550 , as e Bodin obserueth : or to the yeare 560 , as f Pontacus noteth : or at furthest to the yeare 600. For hauing spoken a few words of Gregory the great & Boniface who succeeded him , he ends presently his storie . Who is your next man ? PRO. g Aimonius , A Monke of S. Germaines , and a famous French writer , speakes nothing of her . PROT. Aimonius , or Ammonius , or Annonius , ( for he is diuersly named ) your famous French writer , drew out his storie , by h your owne mens confessiō , but to the yeare 828 , or at furthest to * 844 , which fell nine or ten yeares short ( at least ) of Pope Ioanes time . And therefore me thinkes that you should not looke that he should write of her . aeAP . i Audomarus the Parisian omits her also in his history . PROT. Where might a man see Audomarus I pray you ? k Canus tels of a Bishop in his countrey which was wont to cite Authors that neuer were . Now I wish you be not of kindred to him in this : for I find no mention of any such historiographer in Trithemius , or in Gesner , or in Posseuinus . Neither doth Bellarmine nor Baronius cite anie such in their disputes about this matter . When you can tell me certaine newes of such a writer , you shall haue a more certaine answer . In the meane time proceed . PAP . Nay stay a little : for though neither Bellarmine nor Baronius mention Ademarus , ( for so is his right name , and not Audomarus , as it is erroneously printed ) where they speake of this matter : yet Ademarus is mentioned by Genebrard and Onuphrius , where they treat of this matter , as B. C. obserued well , in his l Dolefull knell of Thomas Bel : where he taxeth Sutcliffe for captious quarelling with father Parsons ( as he cals him ) for citing Ademarus , calling him a counterfeit . PROT. B. C. is a fit patron for father Parsons : but an vnfit match to deale with Deane Sutcliffe . Deane Sutcliffe ( no doubt ) scornes him . And good cause why . For who but a foole would appeale to one of his owne fellowes for triall of his truth ? Are not Genebrard aud Onuphrius as like to cite a counterfet Author as Parsons ! PAP . m Lupus Seruatus saith nothing of her . PROT. Why ? what occasion had he to speake of her , sith he writ no bookes of historie ? Besides , Lupus Seruatus migrauit ad Dominum anno 851 , saith n Trithemius : that is Lupus Seruatus died in the yeare 851. So that , though as a Prophet he might haue foretold of her deliuerie , yet as an Historian , he could not haue reported her deliuerie . PAP . Yea but Lupus Abbot of Ferrara in an o Epistle of his to Benedict the third , cals Leo Benedicts predecessor : and therby sheweth , as p Baronius gathereth , that there was no such Pope as Pope Ioane , betweene Benedict and Leo. PROT. What ? doth Baronius gather such a conclusion of such premisses ? Verily he gathereth where no man streweth . For I pray you , doth this follow . Iohn the 9. speaking of Stephen the 6. q cals him his predecessor . Ergo , there was no Pope betweene Iohn the 9. and Stephen the 6 ? If not , as indeed it doth not , for there were two Popes who came betweene them , the one called r Romanus , the other ſ Theodorus ) then neither will it follow , that because Leo is called Benedicts predecessor , therefore there was no such Pope , as Pope Ioane , betweene Benedict and Leo. PAP . t Yea , but this Lupus in diuerse of his Epistles , doth complaine of the miserable estate of the Church in his time . And therefore if any such horrible matter , as this of Pope Ioane , had fallen out , * doublesse he would haue spoken of it , and mourned pitifully for it . PROT. Doubtlesse , Baronius , if you giue any credite to him , will make a foole of you . For doth not u he mention diuerse of his Complaining Epistles , sent to great personages ? wherein yet he complaines of nothing , but that Courtriers robd his Corban ; I meane his Monasterie . x That he wanted an ambling Nagge to ride to Rome on . y That he wanted Tully de Oratore , Quintilian , and Donate vpon Terence . And z that there was such licentiousnesse in France ( among the Laitie ) that the people neither feared God nor the diuell . Of faults among the Clergie , Lupus complaines not at all . PAP . a Luitprandus , who writ an historie , speakes nothing of her . PROT. What historie of Luitprandus do you meane ? That which is intituled De vitis Pontificum , that is , of the Popes liues ? which was printed the b other yeare at Mentz with Anastasius : or his historie of such accidents as fell out through Europe ? PAP . I meane the latter . For I see the former , though it carry the name of Luitprandus , c cast off by the Printer , as none of his . PROT. Now then you are a wise man , to tell me that Luitprandus mentions not Pope Ioane . For Luitprandus Ticiuensis Diaconns , historiam per Europam gestarum libris 6 , ab An. 858. ad ●0 . vsque Othonis magni fere continuat , d saith Genebrard . That is , Luitprandus Deacon of such a Church in Italie , continues his historie of accidents which fell out in Europe , from the yeare 858. to the 30. yeare ( almost ) of Otho the great . By which you may see that he began his historie after Pope Ioanes time . And therefore had no cause to speake of her . PAP . e Lambertus Schafnaburgensis hath not a word of her . PROT. To this I answer , first that he liued not in the same time with her : he liued anno 1077. Secondly I say , that this Lambertus did but touch by the way . all ages from the beginning of the world to the yeare of Christ 1040. as f Pontacus truly obserued : though he discoursed at large of the 37 yeares that followed . Thirdly , this Lambertus doth not so much as name Stephen the 4 , or Paschalis , or Eugenius , or Valentinus , or Gregorie the 4 , or Sergius the 2 , or Leo the 4 , or Benedict the third , or Nicolas , or Adrian the second : and therefore what maruell if he speake not of this Pope Ioane ? PAP . g Otho Frisingensis , who liued about the yeare 1150. makes no mention of this storie . PROT. But he doth . For Iohn the seueuth ( h saith he ) was a woman . PAP . a They who liued within a few yeares after her , and writ at length of all other accidents , write nothing of her : and that is another presumption , it is but a fable which is reported of her . PROT. Who are they you meane ? PAP . The first is b Iohannes Diaconus , who in the yeare 870. writ of the Popes liues . PROT. That Iohannes Diaconus w. it S. Gregory the great his life , c I grant ; and * as some say Clements : but that he writ of any more Popes , I vtterly denie . You haue a pretie gift in alledging writings that neuer were . But say on . PAP . d Milo Monachus who liued Anno 871. saith nothing of her . PROT. Milo Monachus I beleeue saith nothing of her , nor any other Pope : for he writ no historie . They who commend him , e do commend him for a Rhetorician , and for a Poet , and for a Musitian , but not for an Historiographer . PAP . f Passeratius Rabertus who liued in the yeare 881. saith nothing of her . PROT. This Passeratius is ( surely ) some author of your owne deuising . For no man can tell any newes of him . But ( perhaps ) you would say Paschatius Ratbertus , for g such a one liued about the time you speake of . Yet this writ no historie . This writ neither at length , nor in briefe , of any of the Popes liues . PAP . Yea but h Rhegino , who liued in the yeare 910. and comprehendeth briefly all the choice matters which fell out in the time of this supposed Pope Ioane , writes nothing of her . PROT. Rhegino writes nothing of Iohn the 2 , nor of Boniface the 4 , nor of Deusdedit , nor of Boniface the 5. He writes not a word of Sergius the 2 , nor of Leo the 4 , nor of Benedict the 3 : and therefore no maruell though he write nothing of this Ioane the woman Pope . PAP . i Why , but the greatest enemies that euer the Popes had , who liued in , and after those times , and were readie to cast in the Popes teeth whatsoeuer they knew , or knew not , to the end they might disgrace them , yet neuer obiected this of Pope Ioane . Which confirmes me much in my opinion , that this is but a tale , deuised long after by some craftie headed heretickes . PROT. Who are these I pray you ? PAP . k Iohn Bishop of Rauenna is one of them , Methodius Illyricus another , and Michael Palaeologus the Emperour of Constantinople a third . PROT. How know you , that these neuer obiected Pope Ioanes leudnesse to the disgrace of the Romane Papacie ? Haue you read all that they writ , and all that they spake ? PAP . Nay : their writings are not extant , l I confesse . But a man may know how they slandered the Popes by the answers of many godly men , made in defence of the Popes . For as we Catholickes at this day are forced to make mention of your obiections , when we vndertake to answer your bookes : so in those dayes the Catholicks were driuen to make mention of the slaunders which they refuted . Now in their refutation of slanders , there is no such thing as this of Pope Ioane . PROT. Why , pe●●duenture they knew , that in this they were slandered with a matter of truth ; and therefore they held it best to passe it ouer in silence . Questionlesse your fellowes at this day do so often . When Beza obiected this verie matter in the assembly of Poysy , before the Cardinall of Lorraine , and the Sorbonists of Paris : who answered him ? Do not your a owne men confesse , that no man said a word to him ? When the Hussites ( as you call them ) obiected the same at the Councell of Constance ; b was not silence their answer ? We reade in a c booke lately set forth , intitled Synodus Parisiensis , that d S. Ambrose asked , Quaratione , quáue authoritate , imagines Angelorum vel aliorum Sanctorum ador ande sint , cùm ipsi sancti Angeli vel sancti homines viuos se ador ari noluerunt ? What reason or what warrant men had to worship the images of men or Angels , seeing the Angels themselues and holy men aliue refused to be worshipped ? Now the two great Cardinals , e Bellarmine and f Baronius , snarle at this booke , seeking by all meanes to disgrace it . g Bellarmine expresly professeth the confuting of it : and h Baronius sets the most of it downe in his Annales euen word for word , making glosses here and there vpon it , in way of answer to it . But both of them passe slily by the words of Ambrose . If we had not had the booke it self , we should neuer haue knowne by their answers , of such an argument of S. Ambrose his making , against Images . In like manner these i two Champions vndertake to answer such arguments as are made to iustistifie the report of Gregorie , deliuering Traian out of hell . Yet there is one argument made by their k opposites , which they neuer touch ; and that is this : that in S. Gregories Church at Rome , the summe of that storie is engrauen in an ancient stone . Vpon which argument the Iesuite l Salmeron stands much . If their opposites writings were not extant , by their answers , we had neuer heard of such an obiection . Wherefore if you would perswade me that these eager enemies obiected not this against the Pope , you must bring better proofe thereof then this , that you find no foot-stepping of it in the answers made vnto them . But go on with your argument : what other enemies silence perswades you that this storie is a fable ? PAP . m Hincmarus Archbishop of Rhemes , Theodoricus de Niem , Waltramus Bishop of Norinberge , Benno the Cardinall , bitter enemies vnto the Pope , passe this euer in silence . And that is a great argument to me , there was no such thing . PROT. That Hincmarus Archbishop of Rhemes should haue liued at enmitie with your Popes , it is not for your Popes credit it should be knowne . For he was singularly wel learned , very wise , and very honest , as p Trithemius witnesseth : in so much that your great Cardinall q Baronius , when he hath occasion to cite him , intitles him * Saint Hincmarus : wherein his r Epitomizer followes him . PAP . Well : ſ what say you to Theodoricus de Niem ? PROT. I say ( which before I proued ) that he mentions the storie . PAP . And what say you to Waltram Bishop of Norinberge ? PROT. I say , there are few of his workes extant : and in t those which are extant , he shewes no gall against the Pope : onely he proues that the Emperour hath right to the inuestiture of Bishops . PAP . u Why , but do you not thinke that Benno the Cardinall , who spake so much euill of Gregorie the seuenth , and other Popes , would haue noted this , if he had knowne of it ? PROT. No. Benno ( no doubt ) knew much foule matter by many other Popes , which he did not touch . There are many shamefull things reported in other stories by many of your Popes , which Benno hath not in his storie . But do you thinke in good earnest , that Benno the Cardinall was the author of that booke which goes vnder his name , and is intitled Vita & gesta Hildebrandi ? PAP . Nay indeed I do not . I rather thinke it was made by some Lutheran , and falsly fathered on Benno . And of that mind is x Bellarmine in part , and y Florimondus wholy . PROT. So was not Orthuinus Gratius , who set it out at Colen , in the yeare 1535. For he , though as hote a Papist as any of the crew , held it for Benno his owne , and z professed that he rather beleeued him then Platina , and Stella , and Sabellicus . But see you not by the way your owne folly , in that you conclude there was no Pope Ioane , because the writer of that storie makes no mention of any such Ioane . I hope ( if he were a Lutheran that made it ) he knew there was a common fame of such a matter . And therefore if he had bene disposed to haue disgorged himselfe of all that lay on his stomacke , he would haue cast vp that with the rest . But go forward . PAP . a Rupertus the English Bishop , who because he was excommunicated by the Pope , deuised and raked together all maner of lies against the Pope , did not for all that obiect this . PROT. b Rupertus the English Bishop , whom you meane was the man commonly called Grosthead . c A great Philosopher , excellently well seene both in Greeke and Latine , a Reader of Diuinitie in the Schooles , a famous Preacher in the pulpit , a man of holy life and conuersation : euen so holy , that in the opinion of the whole clergie of France and England , there was not such another among the Prelates of that time : though it pleased your Pope Innocentius the fourth , to call him old foole , surd , and absurd companion , and to threaten he would make him a by-word and an astonishmēt vnto the world . And to say truth , this man had many bickerings with the Pope , insomuch that in one letter he d signified vnto him , that by his writs with ( non obstante ) he brought vpon the world a Noahs flood of mischieues , wherby the puritie of the Church was defiled , and the quietnesse of the common wealth hindered . That by his Reseruations , Commendaes , Prouisions of Benefices for Persons , who sought to fleece , and not to feed the flocke of God , he committed such a sinne , so contrary to the doctrine of the Apostles , and the Euangelists : so hatefull , so detestable , so abominable to Christ Iesu , as neuer sinne was , but the sinne of Luciser : nor neuer shall be , but the sinne of Antichrist , whom the Lord shall destroy with the breath of his mouth at his coming . He signified vnto him , that no mā could , with a good cōscience , obey any such mandats as he sent , though they came from the highest order of Angels . For they tended not to edification but the vtter vndoing of the Church . Are these the lies by reporting whereof he sought to reuenge himselfe on your Pope ? Alas , the c Colledge of Cardinals confessed before the Pope , that they could not blame him for writing thus , for he said nought but truth . PAP . f Another Englishman , Mathew Paris by name , made a hodge-podge of all the villanies he could remember , and yet he hath not this . PROT. Mathew Paris , indeed tels many foule tales of the Popes and the Papists . As for example : g He reports how Satanas , & omne contubernium inferorum . That is , The diuell of hell , and all his hellish crue , writ letters gratulatory to the whole rablement of the Popish Clergie , acknowledging their kindnesse , in that following their pleasures , and giuing ouer preaching , they suffered more soules to go to hell then euer went before . h He reports how Gregorie the 7. set the whole Church on a hurry , by deposing maried Priests frō their priesthood , and forbidding the Laitie to heare their seruice ; because he had no president for such his proceeding , and because ( as some thought ) it was an vnaduised part , contrary to the opinion of the ancient Fathers , who wrote that the Sacraments of the Church , by the inuisible working of the spirit , haue like effect , whether they be administred by good or bad men , &c. i He reports how a Cardinall Legate , at a Councell held in London , inueighing against Priests Lemans , was taken the same night after in bed with a whore . k He reports how Germanus Archbishop of Constantinople , signified vnto the Cardinals of Rome : that the Grecians stumbled much at this , that the Cardinals desired to be accounted his disciples , who said : Siluer and gold I haue none : and yet were wholly set vpon gathering of siluer and gold . l He reports how the Pope enioyned by one mandate to the Bishops of Canterburie , Lincolne , and Salisbury , that they should prouide for 300 Romanes in benefices next vacant . And they should giue no benefice till they had prouided for so many competently . m He reports how Hugh the Cardinall bragd , when Innocentius departed from Lions , that whereas there were foure stewes at his coming thither , he had left them but one . Marry that reached from the one end of the towne to the other . n He reports how the Franciscans and Minorites , by commandement of the Pope , appointed all sorts of people , yong and old , men and women base and noble , weak and strong , sound and sicke , to go for recouerie of the holy land . And yet the next dare , yea sometimes the same houre , for money , they dismissed them againe . o He reports how Pope Innocentius the fourth , stirred vp the Christian people of Brabant and Flaunders to warre against Conradus the Emperour , promising them for their labour for giuenesse of all their sinnes . Yea he promised such warriers not onely forgiuenesse of sinnes for their owne vse , but forgiuenesse of sinnes for their parents also . The fathers and mothers of such as warred against Conradus , had all their sinnes forgiuen them , as well as the warriours themselues . These and many such like tales he tels by the Pope , which the truth it selfe inforced him to do . But he meddles not with any thing which was done by any Pope within 1000. yeares after Christ . And therefore no maruaile though he spake nothing of Pope Ioane . PAP . p Iohn of Calabria , a man famously known for a railer against the Popes , spake nothing of this . PROT. Iohn of Calabria q told our king Richard the first , that Antichrist was as then borne in Rome , and that he should be made Pope . r Iohn of Calabria was generally reputed a Prophet , & a man of great learning . Yet Iohn of Calabria was so farre from rayling against your Popes , that ( if ſ Bellarmine say true ) he spake very honorably of them . And therefore his silence , in this case , doth not helpe you . PAP . t Yea , but Dante 's the Italian Poet , would surely haue touched this storie , if he had heard any inkling of it . PROT. Why so ? Dante 's found fault onely with sixe of your Popes , viz. with Anastasius the 2 , Nicolas the 3 , Boniface the 8 , Clement the 5 , Iohn the 22 , and Celestine the 5 , as u Bellarmine notes . Whereby it is plaine that he neuer purposed to raue vp all the filth which he found written of your Popes . Questionlesse , he might well haue heard of this , for x he liued after Martinus Polonus , and in Martinus dayes the report of this was common . Haue you any more to say ? y PAP . Yea And not onely the Latin writers , but euen the greek Historiographers , Zonaras , Cedrenus , Curopalatas , and others , that wrote before Martinus Polonus , of matters concerning the Latine Church in those daies , and were no friends to the same , and would haue bene content of such an aduantage against it , write nothing thereof at all . Which is an euident proofe there was no such matter . PROT. What ? an euident proofe ? PAP . z Yea : an euident proofe , which you may perceiue by Sutcliffes answer to father Parsons ( as he cals him ) for he neuer , I warrant you , so much as once names these Greeke Historiographers , but suppresseth that cunningly , or rather maliciously , because he could frame no colourable answer vnto it . PROT. D. Sutcliffe , whom you scornfully call Sutcliffe , neuer intended to trouble himself , or his reader , with laying open Parsons foolery in euery particular . Otherwise assure your self , he would not haue passed by this . For it is a matter of no great cunning to shape this argument his answer . For tell me . Had you not once a Pope called Marke , who sate , as diuers of your own a histories note , 2 yeares 8 moneths , and 20 daies ? And had you not another Pope called Marcellus , b who sate aboue 5 yeares ? PAP . We had . But what of that ? PROT. Your c Pontacus , and d Genebrard confes , that all the Greeke writers in a manner , omit to speake of the former . And e that all Greeke writers without exception , omit to speake of the latter . Now if you , notwithstanding their passing by of these , be yet perswaded that these were Popes , why may you not rest perswaded that there was a Pope Ioane , though they do passe by her , and write not one word of her ? I hope you beleeue many things , whereof they write nothing . We reade in your f Legend , yea In your g Masse bookes , that Heraclius the Emperour when he would haue entred in by the gate , by which our Sauiour went to his passion , clad like a king , with the crosse on his shoulders : that he was miraculously hindred , and could not get through till he had cast off his princely attyre , and put off his hole and his shooes . Do not you beleeue this ? I am sure you do . Yet h Gretzer acknowledgeth , that the Grecians , such as Cedrenus and Zonoras , write nothing of this , professing that he likes it neuer a whit the worse for their silence . For they ( as he further notes ) omitted many other matters of truth , whereof no man doubts . But how know you , that no Grecian euer writ of such an accident ? It seemes that they did : because Chalcocondylas a Grecian of later yeares hath writ thereof , as i before I haue shewed you . For , from whence could he haue it , but from the Grecians his ancestors ? You must bring more euident proofe then this is , or else you will neuer perswade any man offence and reason , that the storie of Pope Ioane , which is commended to vs by so great a cloud of witnesses , is fabulous . PAP . k Why , but Hermannus Contractus , and Conradus Abbas Vrspergensis , and others mo , write nothing of this Ioane of yours . PROT. And what of that ? will you conclude thereupon , that there was neuer any such woman Pope ? Tell me in good earnest , do arguments taken from authoritie of a few men , hold negatiuely ? Is it a good argument , S. Paul , S. Luke and Seneca , do not say that Peter was at Rome ? ergo Peter was not at Rome ? Bellarmine denies this argument . Respondeo saith l Bellarmine : Nihil concludi ex argumentis ab authoritate negatiuè . Non enim sequitur , Lucas , Paulus & Seneca , non dicunt Petrum fuisse Romae , igitur non fuit Petrus Romae . Non enim isti tres omnia dicere debuerunt ; & plus creditur tribus testibus affirmantibus , quàm mille nihil dicentibus ; modò isti non negent , quod alij affirmant : that is , I answer : negatiue arguments are nought worth . For it followes not , that S. Peter was neuer at Rome , because Luke , Paul , and Seneca do not report that he was at Rome . For these three were not bound to report all that was true . Besides , three witnesses speaking to a cause , deserue more credite then a thousand who stand mute , not denying that which is witnessed by the three . And in another place , Certè ( saith m Bellarmine ) magis credi debet tribus testibus affirmantibus , quàm infinitis nihil dicentibus : that is , Verily a man should rather beleeue three witnesses speaking to a cause , then infinite , who neither speake pro nor con . Againe , tell me whether Denis Bishop of Athens , was not afterward B. of Paris ; though . Ado B. of Triers in Germanie , and Suidas a Greeke writer , make no mention of that his second Bishopricke ? Your Lipomanus resolues vpon Metaphrastes , and one Michael Syngelus his word , that Denis was B. of Paris , though Ado and Suidas speake not of it . Their passing it ouer in silence , doth not preiudice Metaphrastes and Syngelus report , who say he was B. of Paris , in n Lipomanus opinion And why then though these and many mo , say nothing of Pope Ioane , might there not be such a Pope , sith as many and as learned as they do reckon her among the Popes ? o Salmeron , one of your prime Iesuites , notes , that when one Historian reports a matter , and another passeth by it , the latters silence doth not preiudice the truth of the other historians relation . Ealex apud historiographos obseruatur ( saith he ) vt quando vnus ex duobus historicis aliquid affirmat , quod alius supprimit , non deroget affirmanti qui tacet . PAP . p Yea but there are in the Popes librarie six or seuen tables of Popes , wherein there is no mention of her . PROT. And what of that ? Your Popes Librarie is compared b q Baronius to a draw net , which gathers together good and bad . Your Popes Librarie hath in it bookes of all sorts , approued , disproued : profitable , vnprofitable . r It hath counterfet and forbidden bookes , as well as bookes of better reckning . They are simple people ( * as we reade in Baronius ) who beleeue reports the rather , for that they are to be found in bookes which are in the Popes Librarie . Yet suppose these seuen tables be of best note : will you yeeld thus much to me , that he who is numbred in these seuen tables , or at least in as many , as authenticall as these , as a Pope ; was a Pope ? PAP . No , not I. For I know that Leo the 8. is numbred as a Pope in n many tables , and in o some of those seuen , if not in them all . And yet . I am of p Baronius mind , that Leo the eight was an intruder and an vsurper : and that he was not worthy to be called a Pope . But why asked you of me this question ? PROT. If this be no good argument : Leo the eight is numbred among thee Popes in seuen tables that are in the Popes Librarie , or in seuen as authenticall as these in the Popes Library , ergo Leo the 8. was a Pope : What reason haue you to thinke yours good , which is this in effect : Ioane the woman Pope is not numbred among the Popes in seuen tables which are in the Popes Librarie : Ergo there was no such Ioane a woman Pope ? If seuen tables speaking out for a Pope , do not conuince the being of such a Pope : why should their silence conuince the not being of a Pope ? Might they not as well leaue out one who had bene Pope , as put in one who neuer was Pope ? PAP . But why should they haue left her out ? PROT. Partly for her sexes sake , because she was a woman ; and partly in regard of the filthinesse of her fact . For so your stories note . And this need not seeme strange to you , if you would but obserue that other Popes , vpon other occasions , haue bene passed by , by diuers , as no Popes . As for example : Felix the 2. was a Pope and a Martyr , as q Bellarmine teacheth . For Felicem 2. vt Papam & Martyrem Ecclesia Catholica veneratur , saith Bellarmine . And the sate in the Popedome one yeare , foure moneths , and two daies , as we reade in r Platina . Yet by ſ Genebrards confession , Marcellinus omits to speake of him in his Chronicle , because he was suspected of heresie . And for the same cause , or some such like cause , t S. Austin and u Optatus mention him not among the Popes , in their memoriall of Popes . Nor yet Bristow in his table of Popes , which is printed with his wise demaunds . In like manner , that one Cyriacus was Pope , it is acknowledged by x diuers . Yet it is rar● to find him in any catalogue of Popes . For as a y great Papist writeth , Iste Cyriacus in catalogo paparum non annumeratur , quia credebant ipsum non propter deuotionem , sed propter oblectamentum virginum dimisisse Episcopatum . Cyriacus is not in the register of Popes , because it was thought he left the Popedome , not for deuotion , but for the loue that he bare to certaine wenches . Damasus the second , hath his place in z many popish Chronicles in the throng of Popes : yet there are a many on the other side , who let him go for one that is naught , and neuer number him . And in much like sort they b deale with others . PAP . c If Pope Ioane were omitted for the filthinesse of her fact , why was that close stoole reserued ; and that monument of hers , whereof you told me before , set vp in one of the high streetes in Rome ? For the stoole and the image were as like to continue the memorie of her , as any record in writing . To be plaine with you , I do not see how you can rid your hands of contradiction in this point . PROT. Well enough . For may not some be of one opinion , some of another ? May not some thinke good to continue the memory of that , which others , for shame of the world , would haue forgotten ? d Did not some of your fellow Papists in France denie , that Iohn Chastell was taught by the Iesuits to murther Henry the 4. of France , because they were loth to make the Iesuits odious : and yet did not others helpe to erect a pillar of stone neare to the kings pallace , whereby so much was notified ? If any man should affirme , that the same man who omitted Pope Ioane for the filthinesse of her fact , erected such a monument of her in the streets , and prescribed such a stoole to be kept for such a purpose , I know not how he could deliuer himselfe from contradiction . But speaking of diuers men , his speech hangeth wel enough together : there is no shew of contradictiō in it . For further proofe where of , it is worthy your consideration , that when Paul the third , moued with the spirit of God ( as e Harding saith ) and desirous to reforme the Church , gaue charge to his best learned , wisest and most godly zealous men that he knew , 4 Cardinals , three Bishops , and two others , to enquire and search out what abuses and disorders were in the Church , and especially in the Court of Rome : which they did , offering vp vnto him a libel containing the summe of all their proceedings . Some thought their labors worthy of registring : others thought them fitter to be burnt , which appeares by this , that the libell is printed in Crabs edition of the Councell , anno 1551. and yet put into the Index librorum prohibitorum , by Paul the 4 , ( one of those foure Cardinals who exhibited it to Paule the 3 : ) and left out of Dominicus Nicolinus his edition of the Councels at Venice , auspiciis Sixti Quinti , in the yeare 1585. and out of Seuerinus Binnius his edition at Colen , 1606. PAP . c Yea , but giue me leaue I pray you . If Pope Ioane were omitted for the filthinesse of her fact : yet should there haue bene mention made of the vacancie of the Sea , for that time she was Pope , or else there will be a manifest error in Chronologie . PROT. A manifest error in Chronology ? A foule absurditie indeed , to misse two yeares in reckoning . But I trow there are fouler then this , how euer the matter wil be salued . For Onuphrius and Bristow reckon 230 Popes to Gregory the 13 , and * Genebrard 234. Whereas by Platina his account , there should be 235. for he reckons to Zistus the 4. with whom he ends 221. Popes : after whom , to Gregory the 13. euery man reckons 14. which makes vp the number of 235. Yet Versteganus in his table , printed at Antwerpe 1590 , numbers no mo then 231. Againe , do not d some of your Chronologies record , that Eu●●ristus sate 13 yeares , whereas e others say , he sate but nine yeare ? Do not f some of them say , that Denis sate 11 yeares . g Others that he sate but 2. yeares ? And do not these differences , and such as these are , whereof we haue spoken before in part , argue manifest errors in your Chronologies ? If no further inconueniences follow vpon Pope Ioanes omission then a manifest error in Chronology for that space she liued , we may well enough beleeue that some omitted her , not for that she was not , but that they were ashamed of her . For 2. yeares and odde moneths break no square in your Chronologies , no more then an inch with a bungling Carpenter . PAP . l Yea , but no body within 400. yeares after mentions her Popedome . * And is it possible , that all writers should so conspire together , that the truth thereof could neuer be certainly knowne , till 400. yeares after ? PROT. You lauish , when you talke of 400. yeares after . For I haue prooued vnto you alreadie , by the bookes that are yet extant , that it was knowne sooner . But suppose we had no writer who liued within 400. yeares of Pope Ioane , to produce for proofe : will you ( in that respect ) denie the storie ? Do not you Papists cōmend vnto vs many stories as true , for which you can bring vs no proof out of any writer , who liued within 400. yeares after ? m You tel vs of an Image of Christ , which was made by Nicodemus , who came to our Sauiour by night , for feare of the Iewes : and of it you report wonderfull things . But you are not able to name the man , ( shall I say within 400. yeares of Nicodemus ? nay not within 600. yeares of Nicodemus ) who writeth any such thing . Againe , n you tell vs , that S. Luke drew certaine pictures of the virgine Marie . But o Theodorus Lector is the ancientest man , that your friends alledge for proofe of this . And he Pliued at least 500. yeares after . Thirdly , q you write that our Sauiour Christ , wiping his face with an handkerchiefe , imprinted his Image therin : and sent it to Agbarus for a token . But you can name no Author for this , but r Euagrius ſ who liued 600. yeares after Christ . Fourthly , t the most of you hold it for a certain truth , that Adrian the Pope was content that Charles the great should nominate the B. of Rome , and other Bishops of his dominions : and yet there are among your selues , who write , that there can be no proofe made thereof out of any writer who liued within 400 yeares of Charles the great his time . That the virgine Marie made that coate of our Sauiours , which was without seame , our u Rhemists teach , and x Others of you adde to that , that as our Sauiour grew in height & in breadth , so the coate on his backe grew . Do you thinke that there is an Author within 400. yeares after our Sauiors time that taught so . y Turrian reports , and z Gretser after him : That the Apostles made this Canon in a Councell which they kept at Antioch : Ne decipiantur fideles ob idola , sed pingant ex opposito diuinam humanamque , manufactam , impermixtam effigiem Dei veri , ad saluatoris Domini nostri Iesu Christi , ipsiusque seruorum , contra idola & Iudaeos , neque errent in idolis , neque similes sint Iudaeis . That is , Let not the faithful people be deceiued by idols : but let them on the contrary part , make the image of our Sauior Christ both God and man , and the images of his seruants ; and let them not be deceiued by idols , nor shew themselues like vnto the Iewes . But I do not beleeue that this can be proued to be a Canon of that Councell , by anie writer within 400. yeares of that time . Your a Rabbins alledge * two Councels , the one kept ( as they say ) in the yeare 303. the other in the yeare 324. both sounding much to the Popes praise , and aduancing of his authoritie . But for any thing I reade , the most learned among you can bring no proofe within 400 yeares after , that anie such Councels were then kept . Nicolas 1. who liued in the yeare 860 , is the first , whom b Bellarmine names for that purpose . PAP . a Why , what say you● to our ancient English histories written in the Latine tongue , to wit , William of Malmsburie , Henrie Huntington , Roger Houedon , Florentius Vigorniensis , and Mathew of Westminster ? For I haue one argument of no small moment , b ( as it seemeth to me ) taken from them , for the ouerthrowing of the fable of Pope Ioane . PROT. When liued these writers , from whence you draw your argument ? PAP . The first foure liued 500. yeares agone , and the latest of them 300. yeares . PROT. Fie , 500. yeares agone ? d William Malmsbury cōtinues his storie to the yeare 1143 : and e Henrie Huntington his storie till the reigne of Henrie the second , which was 1154. and f Roger Houedon continues his storie to the yeare 1201. which argues that the first foure liued not 500. yeares agone . But what is your argument out of them ? PAP . No one of them all makes mention of this Pope . PROT. Oh , is that your argument ? Why , I say to that , that our English histories might omit her vpon like reason as others , of other countries , omitted her for her sexes sake , and for the filthinesse of the fact . And do not you thinke , this probable ? PAP . No , by no meanes , g For our English writers aboue others should haue mentioned her , if any such had bene . PROT. And why , I pray you . PAP . h Because king Alfred liuing in Rome when Leo the 4 died , and when Pope Benedict the 3. was chosen , must needs haue knowne also Pope Ioane , if any such had entred and liued two yeares and a halfe betweene them . PROT. How know you that king Alfred liued in Rome when Pope Leo died , and Benedict was chosen ? PAP . i Because we reade that his father deliuered him into the hands of Pope Leo the 4. to be instructed , and brought vp by him . And that the Pope receiued him with great kindnesse , and detained him there with him . PROT. That Alfreds father sent him to be annointed king , and that the Pope annointed him at his fathers motion , we k reade indeed . But that his father deliuered him to Leo to be instructed & brought vp by him , we reade not in Malmsbury , nor Huntingtŏ , nor Houedon , nor Florentius : nor yet that the Pope detained him there with him . But perhaps you can proue he staied at Rome , though it be not recorded that Leo detained him with him . Now therefore let me heare your argument . PAP . l That Alfred liued in Rome some number of yeares , seemeth euident . First , for that he returned more learned , and otherwise better qualified then any Saxon king had bene before him . PROT. This argument is framed out of your fingers ends , and not out of the stories . For the m stories mention two iournies which Alfred took to Rome : the former , when he was fiue yeares old , in the yeare 853. in which he was accompanied with the nobilitie : the second when he was sixe yeares old , in the yeare 854 , in which he went in his fathers companie , who stayed in Rome a yeare . Now though I find it not set downe in particular , that he returned with his father : yet it is likely by the circumstances . For n the stories note , that he was alwayes brought vp in the Kings Court. And it is without all doubt , whensoeuer he returned , that he returned not better learned , nor better qualified . For at 12 yeares old and vpward , he knew not a letter on the booke● which the o stories with great griefe report . What is your next argument ? PAP . p That Alfred liued in Rome some number of yeares , seemeth euident , for that we find no mention of his acts in England vntill the reigne of his third brother Athebred . vpon the yeare 871. at the famous battel of Reading in Barkeshire fought against the Danes . PROT. Alfred was but 22 yeares old in the yeare 871. and therefore no maruell , though being in England we reade nothing of his acts . Yet , not to speake of his hauking and hunting in England , in his yonger yeares , q whereof the stories speake much : we r reade of his mariage three yeares before the battell of Reading , and of his going to aide the King of Mercia the same yeare . So that this proceeds of a false ground , as doth the former . Wherefore vnlesse you haue better arguments to disproue the storie of Pope Ioane , you may proue your selfe a foole , but neuer it a fable . PAP . I am able to proue it a fable . ſ For our foresaid writers do not only not make any mention of Pope Ioane , that came betweene Leo the fourth and Benedict the third : but do expresly exclude the same , by placing the one immediatly after the other , and assigning them their distinct number of yeares before mentioned , to wit , eight and three moneths to Leo , and two yeares and sixe moneths immediatly following , to Benedict the third . PROT. Who is your first witnesse of the truth of this ? PAP . t Malmsbury in Fastis reg . & Episcop . Angl. 847. & 855. PROT. Where might a man see that booke of Malmsburies ? for I neuer read nor heard before of any such booke made by him . True it is , that in the end of Malmsbury , Huntington , Houeden , Ethelwerdus , and Ingulphus , ( u which are all printed in one volume ) there is such a treatise . But that was made by Sir Henry Sauile , who set them out . It was not made by Malmsbury . You may as well say , that Malmsbury made the Index rerum & verborum , which followes after it . But who is your next witnesse ? PAP . x Florentius in his Chronicle . PROT. Doth Florentius in his Chronicle giue eight yeares and three moneths to Leo ? Now for shame of the world leaue lying . Florentius notes , that Leo began his papacie 853. and Benedict the 3,858 : whereby it is apparent , that in Florentius opinion Leo sate but fiue yeares . So is it apparent , that in his opinion Benedict sate fiue yeares : for Benedict , according to Florentius reckoning , began 858 , and Nicholas his next successor began 863. Now from 858. to 863. there cannot be fewer then fiue yeares . So that in prosecuting of this argument , which is of your owne deuising , you haue scarce spoken one true word . PAP . a I pray you tell me how they called this Ioane when she read publickly in the Schooles at Rome ? PROT. They called her Iohn . How else ? PAP . What ? Iohn ? and was she called Iohn after her election to the Popedome too ? PROT. Yea : why not ? PAP . b That 's not likely , For Sergius a few yeares before had brought in a laudable custome : that the Pope elect should not step out of the Conclaue , before he had changed his proper name . PROT. Indeed there are c who say , that because Sergius had a filthy name before his election , to wit , the name of Swines-snout , he changed it after his election . PAP . d Yea , but they who say so , are greatly deceiued . For Swines-snout was not his proper name : but the sirname of a noble family , whereof he was descended . PRO. So are they greatly deceiued , who say , that he changed his proper name . For , ex paterno nomine à principio Sergius est appollatus : from his birth he was called Sergius after the name of his father , as e Baronius notes . The first who changed his name , was * Sergius the third , and yet not for the filthinesse of his name , but in reuerence to S. Peter . Cum enim ille Petrus vocaretur , indignum putauit se vocari eodem nomine , quo Christus primum eius sedis Pontificem , Principem Apostolorum , ex Simone Petrum nominauerat . For his name being Peter , he thought it was not meet that he should be called by that name whereby Christ called the first Bishop of that Sea , euen the prince of the Apostles , whose name he changed from Simon to Peter , as we reade in Baronius in the same place . PAP . I neuer heard this before . But I● like it the better if it be in Baronius . For I cannot f say too much good of that man. Marry I had rather thought you would haue taken exception against me , in respect that Platina ascribes this custome of the Popes , in changing their names , to Iohn the 12. who being called Octauian before his Papacie , thought that name too warlicke for him after he was made Pope , and therefore tooke the name of Iohn . Now I could easily haue replied vnto this . For besides that Platina speakes amisse in many other points , it is not likely that Iohn the twelfth made any conscience by what name he was called , seeing he liued as licentiously after he was Pope , as before . PROT. You haue your learning at the second hand . Haue you not ? PAP . I haue this out of Florimondus I confesse . But what of that ? PROT. Your Leare-masters deceiue you , and especially Florimondus . For g Platina is one of them who ascribes the originall of this papall custome to Sergius the second ; for which he is reproued by Onuphrius . Onuphrius , and not Platina , ascribes the originall hereof to Iohn the 12. Iohannem hunc 13. primum esse inueni qui nomen in pontificatu mutarit , saith h Onuphrius . Nam cum antea Octauianus vocaretur , gentili nomine omisso , tanquam parùm maiestati & religioni pontificis idoneo , se Iohannem appellauit : that is , Iohn the 12. was the first ( as farre as I can learne ) who changed his name when he was made Pope . Whereas before he was called Octauian , he left that heathenish name , as litle beseeming the Popes maiestie and religion , and called himselfe Iohn . PAP . Onuphrius must pardon me , though I beleeue him not in this . PROT. Yet Onuphrius , in i Florimondus opinion , was a most painfull Antiquarie . But what if Baronius say as much ? will you not beleeue him for Baronius sake ? PAP . How can Baronius say so much , if you wronged him not before , when you told me that he referred this custome of changing names to Sergius the third ? If Sergius the third begun it , then not Iohn the twelfth : if Iohn the 12 began it , then not Sergius the third . PROT. Looke you and Baronius to that , how both tales will hang together . But assure your selfe , Baronius saith both . For notwithstanding the former assertion , coming to speake of Iohn the 12 , he k vseth these words , Hic reuera primus inuentus qui mutauit sibi nomen , vt qui ex Octauiano vocari voluerit Iohannes , pro mutata , non exuta tyrannide . Nam qui dictus est à patre , ob temporale vrbis dominiū , Octauianus : obspirituale , nomine Iohannis appellari idcirco voluit , vel quòd eo nomine eius patruus Iohannes 11 Papasit appellatus : vel vt in nomine saltem benè posset audire in adulatorijs acclamationibus , quibus malé vsurpatum proferri soleret sacrum illud eloquium [ Fuit homo missus à Deo , cuius nomen erat Iohannes : ] that is , This ( in truth ) is the first who changed his name , who of Octauian would needs be called Iohn : and not for that he meant to leaue his tyrannie , but for that he resolued to vse another kind of tyrannie . For he , who was called by his father Octauian , in respect of his temporal authoritie in the citie , would now in respect of his spirituall be called Iohn , either for that his vncle Iohn the 11. was called so , or for that he desired to heare well , at least for his names sake , whilest in clawing and fauning acclamatiōs , the people fondly applied vnto him that good speech , There was a man that was sent from God , whose name was Iohn . l Thus Baronius . Haue you not another question to ask ? PAP . e Yes . Who was Pope Ioanes father ? PROT. What is that to the purpose ? PAP . Much. m For the histories expresly set downe , who was the father of Linus , of Cletus , of Clemens , and of all the rest of the Popes . And would they not haue done as much for her , if she had bene Pope ? PROT. It is false , that the histories expresly set down the fathers of all the rest of the Popes . For by the histories , you cannot tell me , who was the father of Higinus , or Denis , or of Iohn the 19. And that I will proue vnto you by the histories : for in n them we reade , that Higini genealogia non inuenitur . No man knowes of what parentage Higinus was . And o Dionysii generationem inuenire non potuimus , we could not finde out Denis the Popes Ancestors . And p Iohan. 19. cognomen & patris ignoratur . It is vnknowne of what sirname , or countrey , Iohn the 19. was . Againe , In the q histories it is expresly written , that Vrban the fourth was begotten , ex patre sutore veteramentario : that is , of a Cobler . That r Iohn the 22. was filius veteramentarij , resarcitoris videlicet sotelarium . That is , the sonne of a Botcher . That ſ Benedict the 11. was filius lotricis pauperculae . The sonne of a poore laundresse . That t Benedict the 12. was Molitoris filius : the sonne of a Milner . u That Sixtus the 4. was the sonne of a Mariner . That x Adrian the 6. was a Clothworkers sonne , or else a Brewers . That y Sixtus Quintus was a base and beggerly fellowes son , euen the son , as is said , of a Swincheard . But what the names of these mens fathers were , that is not expresly written . You may peruse many histories , and find nothing to that purpose . Your Alexander the 5 , z confessed , Se nec parentes , nec fratres , aut aliquem ex agnatis , cognatisue suis vnquam vidisse . That he neuer saw either his father , or mother , or brother , or any of his kinred . And can you tell me , what was his fathers name ? PAP . Well Sir , to be briefe with you , I proue it a fable thus : a Either this Pope Ioane was yong or old when she was chosen . If she were yong , that was against the custome to chuse yong Popes , as may appeare by the great number of Popes that liued in that dignitie , aboue the number of Emperours that succeeded often in their youth . But if she were old when she was chosen , then how did she beare a child publikely in procession , as you heretickes affirme ? Answer me this : for to this Sutcliffe saith nothing in his answer to Parsons , as he cals him . And no maruell , for nothing can with any colour be pretended , as B. C. assures himselfe , in his b Dolefull knell of Thomas Bell. PROT. I deny the ground of this your reason , to wit , That this Pope Ioane was either yong , or old , when she was chosen . For c learned men deuide the whole course of mans life , not into youth , and old age , as you do : but into pueritiam , pubertatem , adolescentiā , iuuentutem , constantem , mediamue & senectutem . Now middle age is from 35 , to 49 : whereof she might haue bene , and so neither old , nor yong : for Leo the 10. was chosen Pope at 38. yeares of age . For he was not 46. yeares of age when he died , and yet he sate as Pope 8 yeares , 8 moneths , and 20 daies . And Gregorie the 11 , fuit dum eligebatur in Papam forsitan circa 35. annos : was about 35 yeares old , as e Theodoricus de Niem , and f Massonus witnesse . Againe , she might haue bene chosen yong , for any custome you Papists haue to the contrarie . For Boniface the 9. ( as g some write ) erat annorum 34. dum eligebatur in Papam : was but 34. when he was chosen Pope : and h Innocent the 3 , was but 30. Yea she might haue bene one of the youths of the parish : for ( not to speake of the boy-Pope : I meane , Benedict the 9 , i who was chosen Pope about 12 yeares old : ) Iohn the 13 , alâs 12 , k In iuuenili & florida aetate creatur Pontifex : was made Pope when he was in his prime : that is , about the 18 yeare of his age , as l Baronius gathereth by circumstances . But why might not she haue bene old , sith we reade , that old women haue borne children ? Henricus Sueuus Imperator ex vxore quinquagenaria genuit Fridericum 2 , m saith Massonus . Henrie the Emperor begot Fredericke the 2 of his wife , who was fiftie yeares old . Machutus Episcopus ortus est matre plusquam Sexagenaria , n saith Petrus de Natalibus . Bishop Machutus his mother was aboue threescore yeares old when she bare him . Hîc in Palatinatu ante annos aliquot vidi meis oculis , & vocatus interfui partui cuiusdam foeminae ampliùs annos 56. natae , quae binos mares enixa est eodem partu , o saith Franciscus Iunius . A few yeares since , I was intreated to see a woman in this countie , aboue fiftie and sixe yeares old , who was deliuered of two boyes at a birth . N. D. whose steps you follow , hath one good propertie : for he is alwaies like himselfe ; he is no changeling . He began with lies , and goeth on with fooleries ; yet in giuing the reason why it was not the custome to chuse yong Popes , he shewes himselfe most foole . For the multitude of Popes aboue the Emperours , came not by reason of their age , but by other accidents . In the first 300 yeares , while the Popes were generally good , they were cut off by martirdome . For though it be not true , ( as p Onuphrius notes wel ) that all the Popes from S. Peters time to Syluester , were martyrs : which yet is confidently auouched by q some Papists : it is true ( I grant ) that the most of them were martyrs . Now in succeeding times , their number grew the greater by their poysoning , and euill entreating one of another . If you peruse diligently the stories of their liues , you shall find that of fortie Popes , alreadie dead and gone to their owne place , there was not one that sate a full yeare : you shall finde that within compasse of nine yeares , or little aboue , r there were nine seuerall Popes : you shall finde , ſ that one man , in 13. yeares , poysoned sixe Popes : you shall find , that God in his iustice cut them off , for their wicked and abhominable liues . Liberius sate about some sixe yeares , t saith Cardinal Turrecremata , and then died an euill death . Mala morte precibus sanctorum extinctus est . He died not for age , but with cursing . Anastasius the second , sate not two yeares , but God strook him suddenly for his naughtinesse , and he died . Yea he died ( some say ) as Arius the arch-heretick died . For , Sunt qui scribunt eum in latrinam effudisse intestina dum necessitati naturae obtemperat , saith u Platina , and x Iohannes Stella the Venetian . Clemens the 2 , kept the Popedome but nine moneths , not for that he was old when he was chosen , but because he was poisoned , as we n reade in your owne writers . Damasus the 2 , o who had a hand in poysoning this Clemens , kept the papacie but 23 daies , not for that he died of age , but by the iust iudgement of God , that he might be an example to others ( as p Platina notes ) who clime to that dignitie by briberie , and vnlawful meanes , to which they should ascend by vertue . Benedict the sixth , reigned but a yeare and an halfe , and then died , either of strangling , or famine , in close prison , as we reade in the same q Platina , yea in r Baronius . Victor the 3 , kept the papacie but one yeare , and 4 moneths , and died of poyson , say ſ Platina , t Genebrard , and u Charanza , and x Polonus . y Pius the 3 , died within a moneth , not without suspition of venim . Iohn the 13 , ( aliàs 12 , ) z while he was committing adulterie , was slaine : whether a thrust through by some , who tooke him in the act , or b striken by the diuell , historians agree not . But your c Cardinall takes that as more likely , which is more dreadfull . For because ( saith he ) the life of Pope Iohn was detestable , and maruellous offensiue to the Christian people , therefore Christ himselfe gaue out the sentence of condemnation against him . For while he was abusing a certaine mans wife , the diuell strooke him suddenly into the temple of his head . And so he died without repentance . Boniface the 7 , sate but 7 moneths , and a few odde daies , and then the beast died , saith d Krantius . Marcellus the second liued but 22. daies in the Popedome : not for that he was full of yeares when he died , for he was but 55. yeares old , but for that he was poysoned . And ( which is strange ) it is e obserued , that he was poysoned because some thought he would proue an honest Pope . That Sixtus Quintus , after the sixt yeare of his reigne , was fetcht away by the diuell , by whose helpe he came to that place ; f Sir Francis Breton a Monke of the order of the Celestines , protested , that a Prior of S. Benets order assured him at Rome . And g they say , your Iesuites report as much vnder hand in Italy . But to end this point in a word : h your owne men tell vs in plaine termes , that many Popes were of short continuance , because God saw they proued monsters , and shamed the true religion : God in his iustice would not suffer them to liue . And so this argument of yeares hath his answer . PAP . Yea , i but it is a most vnlikely thing , that the whole Romane Clergie would chuse a Pope without a beard , especially a stranger . PROT. And why might not the Romane Clergie , as well as the Clergie of Conftantinople ( k whom you vpbraid with such a fact ) do such a deed ? especially if all your Clergie in those dayes ( as some of you write ) were shauen ? For men by shauing may make themselues looke like women , and women by often shauing may make themselues looke like men . Certainly a l learned man among your selues , imputes the error of Ioane the womans choice to this , that your Clergie were then shauen . For by the meanes of shauing ( saith he ) the people were so disguised , that men and women were scant knowne asunder . And by this it happened that a woman was chosen Pope of Rome , to the perpetuall rebuke of that same holy order . The same reason is giuen also by m Chalcocondylas . And by it is another of your arguments answered , which by n N. D. is touched in these words : How did they not discerne her to be a woman or an Eunuke , seeing she had no beard in her old age ? For it being ordinary , that the Clergie should be shauen , why should they dislike her the more for want of a beard ? PAP . o Yea but was there none , that either by countenance or voice , or other actions of her , could discerne the fraud ? PROT. Looke you to that . But this is sure , if your stories be true , that diuers women haue liued longer among men in mens apparell vnknowne , then dame Ioane liued in the Popedome . For Marina ( p they say ) liued all her life among Monkes , and no body knew but she was a Monke . q Euphrosina liued 36 yeares amongst Monkes , and was reputed for a Monk. So did r Eugenia , Pelagia , and Margareta , and no man suspected them of fraud . PAP . ſ Yea , but how happened it , her owne louers had not discouered or her incontinent life ? PROT. That her louers did not discouer her , it is no wonder . For partners in mischiefe , are good at concealements . As for her incontinent life , that discouered her at length . God , according to his t promise , bringing forth the shadow of death to light , that is , making knowne her secret naughtinesse . PAP . u Yea , but how could she passe through priesthood , and other Ecclesiasticall orders ? how by so many vnder-offices , and degrees , as they must before they come to be Popes , without descrying ? x For 900 yeares from S. Peter , no man was chosen Pope , that was not brought vp in the Romane Church , and passed through priesthood , and other Ecclesiasticall orders . PROT. That 's not so . For y Dionysius was made Pope of a Monke : and z Valentinus in the time of his Deaconship , before he was priested . And so was a Benedict the fift too . And as for b Leo the eight , he was chosen being but a lay man : Per Othonem 1. homo laicus Leo intrusus est , saith Baronius . Your owne c Genebrard did note , that this Note of Onuphrius was worth nothing : yea that it was false , as many other of his notes are . PAP . d Yea but Polonus and others say , that this Ioane brought forth a child as she went in procession . Now it is not credible , that a woman who had gone so many moneths with child , would then especially go abroad when there was most feare she might be discouered . PROT. This is like the rest . For the time of child-birth is vncertaine . For though women go vsually ten moneths , yet sometimes they come sooner , at nine or eight , yea at seuen moneths , as e Physitians haue obserued . Honester women then Pope Ioane , haue fallen in trauell vpon the high way , ere euer they were aware , that they were so neare their reckning , as Theophilact obserueth : for nouit mulier quòd pariet , quando verò , non nouit , saith f he : Nam non paucae 8 mense pepererunt etiam in itinere , nihil praescientes : that is , A woman knowes she shall be deliuered , but the time she knowes not : for diuers haue bene deliuered in their eighth moneth , as they haue bene in their iourneys , neuer dreaming of any such thing towards . What is your next exception ? PAP . g They say , she was buried without any solemnities in the world . And how is that credible , seeing it is a barbarous and sauage part , to depriue them of the honour of solemne buriall , which haue borne the greatest offices ? PROT. Is it so ? Do we not reade in Scripture , that God in his iustice doth vse to serue the greatest princes so , who dishonour him ? Do we not reade , that h Iehoiachim king of Iudah was to be buried as an asse is buried ? &c. Yea , do we not reade in some of your owne stories , that some of your Popes haue had as small solemnities ? Bonifacius 7. post mortem Ioh. 15. sedit menses 4. repentina morte interijt , & in tantum eum odio habuerunt sui , vt post mortem caederent eum , & lanceis vulnerarent , atque per pedes traherent nudato corpore vsque ad campum quiest ante caballum Constantini ; ibi proiecere eum atque dimiserunt , saith i Baronius . Boniface the 7. who sate after Iohn the 15. foure moneths , died a sudden death : and he was so hateful to his owne followers , that after his death they beate him , and ranne him into the body with lances , and dragged him by the feete , all naked , till they came to the field which is neare the place where Constantines horse stands ; there they threw him from them , and there they left him . PAP . k Yea , but it was neuer heard of before , nor neuer in vse among Christians , to burie a man in the high wayes . PROT. No ? Is it not written , that l Deborah , Rebeckahs nourse , was buried vnder an Oke ? and that m Rahel , Iacobs wife , a farre honester woman then Pope Ioane , was buried in the way to Ephrath ? though if it had not , yet Pope Ioane was but right serued to be buried so : for it was neuer heard of before , nor neuer in vse among Christians , that a Pope should be deliuered of a child . The extraordinarinesse of the case , deserued extraordinary exemplary vsage . Your friend Papyrius Massonus , * much commended by your Cardinall n Baronius , o holds opinion , that if there had bene any such Pope , the Romanes could haue done no lesse ( in equitie ) then to haue hanged her vp in chaines after her death . Because he finds not that she was shamefully enough handled after her death , he denies the story . PAP . Papyrius Masso is a worthy man indeed . * Vt ventus fumum , euanescere totam in auras fabulam fecit : he hath disproued this tale throughly p in Baronius iudgement . But yet I thinke with Florimondus , they should haue allowed her Christian burial : they should haue made her a tombe : they should haue written Epitaphs on her . PROT. What ? Epitaphs on such a whore ? That had bene a ieast indeed . Yet perhaps some mad-cap did so . And how proue you the contrary ? PAP . If she had had a tombe made for her , and Epitaphs on her they would haue bene forth coming . For as q Florimondus writes , Sepulchrorum nunquam intermoritur memoria : Tombestones continue for euer . PROT. Indeed I haue r read , that by law it was prouided , that no man should deface Tombe-stones . And I haue ſ read also , that to this day , hard by Troy , videre licet magna marmorea sepulchra operis antiqui ex vno lapide , instar cistae , excauata , quorū opercula adhuc integra sunt : a man may see many marble sepulchres , wrought after the old fashion , cut hollow , like a chest , out of one stone , the couers whereof are still whole . But I do not reade , that men can shew , which was Priamus his graue , which Hectors , &c. Yet but for euill fingers , I could haue told you where Pope Ioanes tombe was . Til Pius Quintus cast it into Tiber , it was to be seene in Rome . PAP . They say further , that she died instantly . But though the paines of women be great at such times , yet it comes by thro●● , they haue some intermission : their paine is not like to a sudden Apoplexy , on which they die instantly . PROT. Men do not die instantly who are taken with an Apoplexie , they may liue long after , and be cured thereof as t Phisitions say . Your Florimondus herein is out of his element . Neither did she die instantly , though it seemes suddenly . For she was deliuered of a boy before her death . PAP . Was she deliuered of the boy wherewithall she went ? and what was then the cause of her death ? Florimondus accounts this as one of the absurdities which followes on this tale . Imò , vt aiunt , ( u saith he ) masculum pepererat , quid igitur mortem repentinam attulit ? If a woman be once deliuered of the fruite of her wombe , there is no danger of death in his opinion . PROT. Commend me to him , if euer you see him . And aske the Woodcocke , if he haue not knowne women die in child-bed , as well as in child-birth . x Rahel was deliuered of her son Beniamin , and yet died shortly . y Phineas wife was deliuered of her sonne Ichabod , and yet died presently after . And if they died so : why not Pope Ioane ? I pray you let me heare what exceptions some wiser men take against this story . For I am wearie of Florimondus fopperies . PAP . z How is she said to haue gone from the pallace of S. Peter to S. Iohn Lateran , whereas the Popes lay not then in the Vatican , but at S. Iohn Lateran it selfe ? PROT. How proue you that the Pope lay not then in the Vatican ? PAP . a Platina witnesseth that the Popes lay not in the Vatican till Boniface the 9. his dayes , to wit , till the yeare 1350. PROT. Boniface the ninth , liued in the yeare 1390. not 1350. wherefore in that circumstance you faile . And so you do in fathering such a fancie vpon Platina . For b Platina reports onely that the Vatican was repaired by Boniface the ninth . He saith not , it was first inhabited by Boniface the 9. though if he had , yet the Pope might well haue gone to see the Lateran ; for he had other houses to solace himselfe , and his Courtiers in , besides the Lateran . He dwelt not alwaies in that : for c Gregory the fourth , made two goodly houses euen out of the ground , for the Popes vse , as your Anastasius testifieth . And Leo the 3. ( as we reade in the same d Anastasius ) made another goodly house neere to S. Peters Church , which stands in the Vatican , e wherein Leo the fourth gaue entertainment to Ludouike the Emperour . But besides , the stories do not report she went from S. Peters pallace to the pallace of the Lateran : but from S. Peters Church to the Lateran Church . For she was deliuered as they went in procession . Now she might go from S. Peters Church to the Lateran Church , and yet dwell in the pallace by the Lateran . For Popes began not alwaies their processions at the next Church to them . f Leo the third appointed to go in procession three seuerall daies before ascension day . And he began the first day , at one of S. Maries Churches , and ended at Saint Sauiours Church . The second day he began at Saint Sabina the martyrs Church , * and ended at S. Pauls . The third day he began at S. Crosses Church in Ierusalem , and ended at S. Lawrences without the wals . So that this question of yours is answered . Let me know if you haue any more to say . PAP . You shall : and first a I will proue it a fable out of their own mouthes that report it . PROT. That 's a peece of cunning in good earnest . But how I pray you ? PAP . Marry , euen as b Saint Marke the Euangelist proued the Iewes liers , by the inconuenience of their testimonies . PROT. What meane you by the inconuenience of their testimonies ? PAP . Their disagreeing one from another . PROT. But so did not S. Marke . For those false witnesses , whose testimonie ( as he notes ) was inconuenient , agreed well enough in their tale . c They onely failed in this , that the matter which they witnessed against him was not capitall , though it had bene true . For to promise the reedifying of a Church in three daies , is neither fellonie nor treason . And in this respect S. Marke obserues that their testimonie was inconuenient , meaning to condemne him to death . But what great disagreement haue you obserued among the relators of this tale ? PAP . d Infinite . Insomuch that a man may well thinke God hath taken anew the same course with these , which he tooke of old with them who occasioned him to say : * Come let vs confound their language , that one of them know not what another saith . PROT. That 's much , I long to heare the particulars . PAP . So you shall by and by . But first I pray you tell me by the way , e why Marianus the first broacher of this tale , gaue her such a new fangled , and new deuised name as Ioane ? Why tooke he that name which in former ages was proper to men onely , and by changing a letter made it a womans name ? Florimondus cannot reach the reason of this . PROT. Florimondus is a proper Squire , and you are a wise man to demand such a question . Reade the Scriptures , and you shall find , that the name of Ioane is no new deuised name , nor proper to men onely . For f they mention one Ioane , the wife of Chuza . Or , if for feare of prouing an hereticke you dare not reade the Scriptures , reade your Legends and Festiuals , and in them you shall find that your Sea-saint Nicolas his mother was called Ioane . * If some should heare you demand such a question , they would think the foole rid you . Wherefore no more of this if you respect your credit : fall to shew me the manifold disagreement which you promised . PAP . I will. g And first obserue with me the confusion that is among them , touching her name before her Papacy . Some say she was called Agnes , some Gilbert , some Isabel , some Margaret , some Tutta , or Iutta , others Dorothie . PROT. Who cals her ( I pray you ) either Dorothy , or Iutta , or Tutta ? who euer called her Margaret , or Isabell ? yea who of the ancient sort of writers , called her Gilbert , or Agnes ? In some of later time I find some difference , one calling her Gilbert , and another Agnes . But of all those whom I brought in , to giue in euidence against her , there is not past one or two , who either before , or after her Papacie , giues her any other name then Ioane . And for ought I know , there is no man , either old , or yong , who euer christened her Dorothie , or Iutta , or Isabell , or Margaret . Know you any that haue done so ? PAP . No. For I find no authors cited for proofe of this , neither by Florimondus , nor by Baronius , And I can say no more then I find in them . But what say you to the next difference ? h Do not some of your witnesses feigne her Iohn the 7 , some Iohn the 8 , some Iohn the 9 ? PROT. Who feignes her to be Iohn the 9 ? Not a man that I know . If you bring not some author for the proofe of this point , you must giue me leaue to thinke you speake ouer . PAP . Ouer or short , I follow in this Baronius , and N. D. For some , saith Baronius , call her Iohn the 7 , some Iohn the 8 , some Ioane the 9. Some , saith N. D. do feigne her to be Iohn the 8 , some 9. PROT. Baronius and N. D. are as like to speake ouer as you , for they are Papists : wherefore I neither beleeue them nor you , further then I see reason . And herein neither they nor you shew reason . For none of you cite so much as one author , good or bad for it . i Besides your Florimondus confesseth , that we are onely troubled about this , whether we should call her Iohn the 7 , or Iohn the 8. He chargeth vs not with naming her Iohn the 9. PAP . Well , let that be your difference , that you know not whether to call her Iohn the 7 , or Iohn the 8. PROT. That difference is not so great . For the like may be shewed in other Popes , which yet you your selues confesse were Popes . But who stiles her either Iohn the 7 , or Iohn the 8 ? verily neither Marianus Scotus , nor Sigebert , nor Go●efridus Viterbiensis , nor Polonus , nor Platina , nor Palmerius , nor Trithemius , nor Fasciculus Temporum , nor Krantius , nor Alfonsus è Carthagena , nor Textor , call her either Iohn the 7 , or Iohn the 8 : but simply Iohn , or Ioane . For it seems they were of k Onuphrius mind in this , that numeri notam habere non debuit sacri ordinis non capax . That seeing she was not capable of priesthood , she should not go for one in the number of Iohns . PAP . Yes , by your leaue , Platina stiles her Iohn the eight , and the next 9. For which he is reproued by l Onuphrius , and that vpon the reason which you mentioned . For these are Onuphrius words . Iohannes hic omnino 8. non 9. est , vt à Platina describitur : Nam etsi Iohannes foemina Papa , quam profitetur , fuisset , non tamen numeri notam habere debuisset sacri ordinis non capax : that is , This Iohn questionlesse is the eighth , and not the ninth , as Platina accounts him : for though Iohn the woman , whom he talkes of , had bene Pope , yet seeing she was not capable of Priesthood , she should not go for one in the number of Iohns . PROT. Platina stiles her not Iohn the eighth . Onuphrius , or some bodie for him , hath abused both Platina and you . For proofe whereof I appeale to Platina , printed in the yeare 1481. m which was the yeare wherin Platina died ; and to the next edition Anno 1485. For speaking of Iohn the woman in those ancient editions , he sets no numerall note vpon her head , but begins his storie thus , Iohannes Anglicus , ex Maguntiaco oriundus , &c. Iohn English , borne at Mentz . Neither stiles he the next 9. but 8. For coming to that Popes life , Iohannes 8. patria Romanus , &c. saith he : Iohn the eighth , by his countrey a Romane , &c. For further proofe of which later point , I appeale to the n later editions , whereunto Onuphrius annotations are annexed . For though we reade thus in them , Iohannes nonus , patria Romanus , &c. Iohn the ninth , by his countrey a Romane , &c. yet , that that reading is false , and the ancient reading true , it appeares by that which is written of the next Popes life , to wit , Martin the second , euen in those later editions . For o Platina shewing how Martin liued in the time of Charles the third , addes presently , quem ab Iohanne 8. coronam accepisse scripsimus , that is , who was crowned by Iohn the eighth , as we haue written . Now Charles the third was crowned by Iohn next before Martin , according to p Platina . Wherefore the next before Martin was Iohn the 8. in Platina his account , and not Iohn the ninth , as Onuphrius would make vs beleeue . Which ouersight , or fraud of Onuphrius , was not so great , but that by this meanes he is forced to alter Platina his numerall note , set to all the Iohns that follow , to call him Iohn the tenth , whom Platina cals Iohn the ninth ; to call him the eleuenth , whom Platina cals the tenth ; to call him the thirteenth , whom Platina cals the twelfth , and so vnto the last Baldesar Cossa , who was in number of Iohns according to the ancient editions , the 23 , and not the 24 , as he is numbred in the editions with Onuphrius notes . But say on , what other disagreement haue you obserued among the reporters of this storie ? PAP . q Some say , she began her Papacie in the yeare 853 , some in the yeare 854 , some in the yeare 857 , some in 858 , some in 904 , some in 653 , some in 686. PROT. Why name you not the Authors that write thus ? For to this day I neuer read or heard of any who placed her either about the yeare 653. or 686. or 904. All the aboue-named Historiographers mention her within the compasse of fiue yeares . Till you bring forth your proofe , there is great reason to suspect your truth . PAP . r Peraduenture you will suspect my truth , if I tell you that some say , she succeeded Leo the fourth , some Leo the fifth , ●me Benedict the third , some Martin the first , some Iohn the fifth . PROT. I shall indeed . For I reade in ſ Bellarmine , that Omnes qui istum Iohannem admittunt , dicunt eum sedisse post Leonem 4 , & ante Benedictum 3. All who acknowledge such a woman Pope , place her after Leo the 4 , and before Benedict the 3. PAP . Yea , but you haue little reason to beleeue Bellarmine therein , For t Polonus writes , that she succeeded Leo the 5. And so doth u Sigebert too . PROT. That Leo , whom Sigebert placeth next before Ioane the woman , is numbred the fifth , it is some error in the print . For x he names but three Popes of that name before that Leo. Wherefore when Sigebert is corrected , you haue no colour of exception from him . No more haue you from Polonus . For though according to his account , Leo before this woman Pope , be Leo the fifth : yet he is the same man whom others call Leo the fourth . Polonus reckens one Leo , as Pope in the yeare 698 , whom others recken not at all , which is the cause of the difference betweene him and others in the account of Leoes that follow . But in the persons all agree . What is the next disagreement ? PAP . y Some say , she sate Pope one yeare , one moneth , and 4 dayes . Some two yeares , two moneths , and 4 dayes . Some two yeares and a halfe . Some but two yeares full . z Very many say , she sate one yeare , fiue moneths , and three dayes . And they are no small number who say , she sate but barely foure moneths . PROT. If this be true , Bellarmine was farre wide . For a he writes , that Omnes qui istum Iohannem admittunt , dicunt eum vixisse in Pontificatu duobus annis , & quinque mensibus . All that acknowledged such a woman Pope , say , she sate as Pope two yeares , and fiue moneths . He knew none ( no more then 1 ) that gaue her so litle time as foure moneths . He knew no such difference herein as you talke of . Yet among the later writers , I confesse there is some difference of some few moneths : but Marianus and Polonus , which are two of the principall , agree vpon the point . They write vniformly , that she sate two yeares , fiue moneths , and foure daies . And Platina is not farre short of that summe . For by his reckoning , she sate two yeares , one moneth , and foure daies . But suppose the differences in these circumstances were great , and many : what is that to discredit the substance of the storie ? We find great difference among them who haue written of Pope Lucius . For b some say , he was a Romane , c some a Tuskan ; d some say he was the sonne of Lucinus , e some of Porphirie : f some say he was chosen Pope in the yeare 253 , g some in the yeare 254 , h some in the yeare 255 , i some in the yeare 259 , k some in the yeare 275. l Some say , he sate Pope 3 yeares , 3 moneths , and 3 dayes ; m some 3 yeares , and 5 moneths : n some 3 yeares , 7 moneths , and six daies ; o some but one yeare , 3 moneths , & 13 daies ; p some but 8 moneths , and no longer . And yet there is no man denies that Lucius was Pope . Againe , do we not reade , that Sergius the third began his reigne in the yeare 905. as q some say : as r others , in the yeare 907 : as a ſ third sort , in the yeare 908 ? Do not t some also write , that he succeeded Benedict the 4 , u others that he succeeded Formosus , x others , Christopher ? And is not there difference also about the time of his continuance in the Popedome ? while y some say he sate 7 yeares , 3 moneths , and 16 daies ; z some 3 yeares onely ; yet who euer denied that there was such a Pope ? We a reade , that Formosus carkasse was taken vp out of his graue , by one of his successors , and brought into iudgement before a Councell of Bishops , and that it was spoiled of his papall robes , and clad with a lay mans garment : that it was indicted , arraigned and condemned . But among them who report this , there is great disagreement . For b some say , it was taken vp by Sergius the third , of whom I spake euen now : some say it was taken vp by c Stephen the sixth , whom many call Stephen the 7 : d some say it had two fingers cut off , e some three : f some say the head was chopt off , g some seeme to denie that : h some say , the trunke of the bodie was cast into Tiber , i others say , it was allowed lay-mans buriall . I pray you now , dare you denie the truth of this storie , by reason of these differences ? PAP . Why not ? Doth not k Onuphrius vpon that reason denie it , saying : Quae de Formosi cadauere ex sepultura à successoribus eruto dicuntur , procul dubio fabulae magis quàm vero similia sunt , quod illorum qui de ea re scripserunt diuersitate & repugnantia facilè liquet : that is , The speeches which go touching the digging up of Formosus bodie out of his graue , by some of his successors , are questionlesse fabulous , not true : which is apparent by the disagreements and disconueniences which are to be found among them that write of it . PROT. Now see you then the disagreement , and disconueniences that are among you Papists . For though l Baronius confesse , * it was such a villanous pranke , as was neuer plaied before : though he confesse , * it may seeme incredible , by reason of the barbarousnesse of it : yet he grants it true , and auowes that they erre fouly , who deny that such things befell Formosus : who hold the reports for fables . Notwithstanding the manifold differences in some circumstances , he durst not cast it off as Onuphrius doth . Neither could he indeed vpon Onuphrius reason . For m Bellarmine saith true in this , ( though he misse the truth often ) that saepissimè accidit vt constet de re , & non constet de modo , vel alia circumstantia . It oftentimes fals out that men are sure such a thing is done , when yet they are not sure of the manner how it was done , or of some other such like circumstance . The difference among writers about circumstance , doth not weaken any mans argument touching the substance . If it do , ( to giue one instance more ) blot out for shame , S. Vrsula and her fellowes holiday , out of your n Kalender : and all the prayers which you make to them in your Primers , Portesses , and Breuiaries . For there was neuer greater diasgreement among the relators of any storie , then among the relators of that . Some o say , that Vrsula was the king of Scotlands daughter : but p others say , she was the king of Cornewals daughter . q Some say , her father was called Maurus : but others say , he was called r Dionethus , or ſ Dionotus , or t Dionocus , or u Deo notus ; for so diuersly do they christen him . And which concernes the husband , to whom she should haue bene maried , x some write , that he was king of England : y others , that he was king of little Brittaine . And z one cals him Aetherius , another a Holofernes , a b third , Conanus . Now in her companie , as c some say , there were only 11000 Ladies and gentlewomen , virgines : but as d others say , there were 6000. countrey maidens ouer and aboue those 1100. of better ranke . Besides , e there were diuers Bishops , and Lords of the Temporaltie who accompanied them . Yea Cyriacus the Pope of Rome , like a good fellow , left his Papacie , and followed these pilgrimes say * some , though others denie it . For f some say , that they went in Pilgrimage to Rome , though g others hold not that probable . h Some say , they were martyred on the sea coast : i some , before the gates of Colen . And k some say , that all this fell out in the yeare 238. some , in l Maximus time : m some , in the yeare 453. Last of all , n some say , that if any be buried in S : Vrsulaes Church , though they be infants newly baptized , the ground will cast them vp againe : whereas o others say , that that is a tale of a tub . PAP . I know not what to reply to this . But learneder Catholickes will answer you , I hope . And in the meane time I will go on . a By the reporters of this story she was first caried to Athens . Now there was no Athens standing at that time . PROT. Yes that there was . For b Paulus Aemilius writes , that Gotefridus was made Duke of Athens , and Prince of Achaia , about the yeare 1220. And afterwards , That certaine Pirates inuading the countrie of Grecia , slue the Duke of Athens , who was of the house of Brennus , and tooke the citie . In like manner we reade in d Mathew Paris , that Iohannes de Basing stockes Archdeacon of * Legria who died in the yeare 1252. studied at Athens , and that he learned of the learned Grecians , many matters vnknowne to men of the West-Church : especially of one Constantia , the daughter of the Archbishop of Athens . Besides , Aeneas Syluins , who liued since that , doth iustifie , that in his time Athens was not quite razed , but carried the shew of a prettie towne . For Ciuitas Athenitensis ( quoth he ) quondam nobilissima fuit , &c. eadem nostro tempore parui oppidi speciem gerit . The noble citie of Athens at this time carries but the shew of a little village . c Wherefore neither doth this your exception preiudice the truth of this storie . Your next had need be better . PAP . By the reporters of this story she was not only carried to e Athens , but to Athens for learning . Now it is a plaine case , as f Bellarmine writes , that there were no schooles at that time , neither in Athens , nor in any place of Grecia . PROT. What ? no schooles in any place of Grecia at that time ? Notes Bellarmine that ? and that as a plaine case ? and doth he prooue it too ? PAP . Yea , g he proues it by diuers writers . And first by h Synesius who liued a little after Basil and Nazianzens time . For Synesius writes vnto his brother , that Athens retained onely the bare name of an Vniuersitie . PROT. And doth tha● import ( thinke you ) that in Synesius opinion there was no vniuersitie at Athens ? I for my part do rather thinke the contrary : I thinke Synesius meant thereby that Athens was an vniuersitie , though nothing so florishing as formerly . Questionlesse , when i Bernard writ , that Peter Abailard had nothing of a Monke , sauing the name and the Cowle , his meaning was not that Peter was no Monke , but rather that he was a Monke , though a sorrie Monke . And I am the rather perswaded to vnderstand Synesius words so : because Athens , in S. Basils time ( about some 40. yeares before Synesius ) k was held the mother of learning : and in regard thereof termed golden Athens by l Gregory Nazienzen . For who can thinke , in so few yeares learning should quite be quenched , and that so famous an vniuersitie should in so short time be vtterly decayed ? But let vs suppose there was no vniuersity at Athens in Synesius time . What is that to proue that there was no Vniuersitie at Athens in Pope Ioanes time , which was 400. yeares after ? That vniuersitie might get life againe in so many yeares . And in deed it did so : for 100. yeares after Synesius time , Bocthuis went to studie at Athens , as m Baronius confesseth : noting further , that the studie of Philosophy was reuiued there in those dayes . Againe , to suppose there was no vniuersitie at Athens in Synesius time , what is it to proue that there were no schooles in any part of Grecia in Pope Ioanes time ? Now Bellarmine promised to proue that . PAP . That is proued by n Bellarmine out of o Cedrenus , and Zonaras . For they record , that in the sole reigne of Michael the Emperour , which fell to be about the yeare 856. Bardus Caesar restored learning . Cum vsque ad illud tempus per annos plurimos ita fuissent extincta omnia studia sapientiae in Graecia , vt ne vestigium quidem vllum extaret . PROT. Bellarmine wrongs Cedrenus and Zonaras , in bringing them in , to witnesse such a point . For they say no more , but that learning was not regarded of along time before Bardus Caesar . They say not , it was quite extinct , * but almost extinct . Bardus Caesar added life vnto-it , * by setting vp schooles for euery of the liberall sciences , and appointing publicke professors , and giuing them stipends out of the Excheker , as Cedrenus and Zonaras write : but he raised it not vp simply to life . For if it had bene starke dead , how could he vpon such a sodaine haue gotten professours to furnish his schooles ? Againe , do we not reade in the same Zonaras , that at the same time whereof Bellarmine speakes , there was a p matchlesse Philosopher at Constantinople , and many skilfull Mathematicians , who were his scholers ? And do we not reade in q Cedrenus , that this Philosopher was called Leo , and that he * was brought vp in learning at Constantinople , though afterward he learned Rhetoricke , Philosophy , Arithmetick , and the other liberall sciences , in the Isle of Antro ? And doth not this argue , that Cedrenus and Zonaras do not report , that there was no learning in any place of Grecia ? Thirdly , is it not well knowne , that r about the yeare 680. there was kept a generall Councell at Constantinople , whereat there were many Bishops of Grece and among the rest the ſ Bishop of Athens ? Is it not well knowne that there was kept another Councell at Nice an 100. yeares after , viz. t about the yeare 780. at which there were mo Bishops of Greece then at the former ? Is it not well knowne there was a 3. Councel holden at Constantinople , which did exceed in nūber either of the former 2 , u about the yere 870 ? And how is it credible so many Councels consisting of many Bishops should be kept in Greece , * and yet Greece vtterly without learning ? Welfare N. D. in comparison of Bellarmine herein , for N. D. durst not ( it seemeth ) say with Bellarmine : that about Pope Ioanes time there was no schoole in any place of Grecia . He was ashamed to runne with his maister to such excesse of lying . He left him in this . PAP . True. But that Athens at that time had no schoole in it at all , nor many yeares before x N. D. is as confident as his maister Bellarmine . And that circumstance is that which gals you most . Wherefore tell me what more you can say to it ? PROT. Nay first tell me how N. D. proues that ? for I shall esteeme of his position , as I find his proofe to be . PAP . His position is euident ( y he saith ) by Cedrenus and Zonaras in the places alreadie cited . PROT. He lyes falsly . Cedrenus and Zonaras makes as much for Bellarmines opinion , as for his . For they speake of the decay of learning through Grecia generally , and not in Athens particularly ; yet ( as you haue heard ) they make nothing for Bellarmine . N. D. might as well haue cast off Bellarmines witnesses , as Bellarmines opinion for insufficient . Haue you any more exceptions ? PAP . z Yea. For these tale-tellers report , that she came to Rome , and there professed learning openly , and had great doctors to her schollers . But this is a notorious vntruth . For there was no learning openly professed at Rome in those dayes , as the stories declare . PROT. The a stories declare , that Ina one of our Saxon kings did build a schoole in Rome , a litle before Pope Ioanes dayes : viz. in the yeare 727. and that to this end , that the kings of England , and their children , the Bishops , the priests , and the rest of the Clergie , might repaire thither , to be instructed in the Catholicke faith , and afterwards returne home . Which schoole flourished in b king Offa his time , viz. 795. and continued at least till Alfreds time . For we reade , that Marinus the Pope , who sate in the yeare 883. freed it from all paiments at c Alfreds motion . Now is it likely that such a schoole was built , and maintained for such a purpose , where no learning was publickly professed ? Moreouer , we reade of many other schooles kept in the same citie , in Stephen the 6. his time , which was about the yeare 885. For all the schooles in Rome concurred in ioyfull maner , bringing Stephen the 6. to the pallace of Lateran , saith d one of your popish Chroniclers : and Stephen was sorie with all his heart he had not wherewith to gratifie the schooles . And is it to be thought that all these schooles were maisterlesse ? that they had no professors , no readers ? PAP . e If there had bene euer such a Ioane Pope , which some had forborne to speake of , for reuerence to that sea : the difference which is found among Historians , in numbring of such Popes as were called by the name of Iohn , should haue risen at that time , and by reason of that occasion . But the difference among historians about the number of Iohn-Popes , arose not from that time , and about that occasion . It arose in Pope Iohn the 12. his time , about the yeare 955. Ergo there was neuer such a Ioane Pope . Now answer me this argument , if you can , for this is held * a doughtie one . PROT. Is it so ? Well , hearken then what I answer to it . I say , first there is no reason that historians should haue differed in their account of Iohns from her time , though some for reuerence of that Sea , forbare to speake of her . For they who spake of her , were not to set any numerall note vpon her head , as f before I shewed you out of Onuphrius . They were not to reckon one Iohn the more for her . Neither indeed did any historian before Platina , recken her in the number of Iohns , though they called her by the name of Iohn . PAP . Yes , Platina set a numerall note vpon her head , and called her Iohn the 7. and so did many since his time . PROT. Many since his time haue called her so , I grant , being moued thereto ( as I suppose ) by this , that they saw her so called in Platina . But Platina hath bene corrupted by some of your generation , as g before I noted . For he neither called her Iohn the 7. nor Iohn the 8. But secondly I say , your minor is false . For the difference which is about the number of Iohns , arose not from Iohn the 12 , but from this woman Ioane . For since Platina his time , some called her Iohn the seuenth , some Iohn the eighth , and so disagreed in the totall summe . PAP . h Nay , herein you are out . For that their disagreement began in Iohn the 12. his dayes , Lambertus , who liued in those dayes , witnesseth : and your Centurie writers do confesse . PROT. Doth Lambertus witnesse that ? Fie that you should say so . For he hath not one word sounding that way . No more haue the Centurie writers . PAP . Yes but they haue . For they i write , that when as Iohn the 12. was deposed by the Cardinals , and Leo the 8. placed in his roome : Iohn the 12. got the Popedome againe , and kept it foure moneths ; which some historians not obseruing , made two Popes of one . PROT. The Centurie writers do not write this . Your Fl●rimondus and Bernartius , from whēce you haue this stuffe , are shamelesse fellowes to report this by them . They say indeed , that there is great difference in writers about Pope Iohn the 12 : meaning by Iohn the 12. not him , into whose roome Leo the 8. was chosen , of whom you talke at random , but another Iohn , who was sonne to Sergius , commonly called Iohn the 11. But that historians began to differ in their account by reason of that difference , they say not . Yea it is plaine , they impute the difference among the historians to this , k that some called Ioane , Iohn the 7. some Iohn the 8. Wherefore you must cast about for a new argument , for this will not serue your turne . PAP . I haue arguments good store : whereof , the first shall be taken from the time wherein ( they say ) she sate as Pope . And l I will deale especially with Marianus Scotus , the first reporter of this matter . For if he be confounded , all the rest must rest confounded . PROT. Well : fall to your worke , and be as good as your word . PAP . m If Leo the 4. liued to the yeare 855 , then Marianus Scotus lyed falsly in reporting that this Ioane was chosen Pope in the yeare 853 : for by his confession she succeeded Leo the fourth . But Leo the 4. liued to the yeare 855. Ergo Marianus Scotus lyed falsly in reporting that this Ioane was chosen Pope in the yeare 853. PROT. What is that to the maine chance , that Marianus Scotus mistooke the yeare of her entring into the popedome ? In histories , a yeare or two breake no square . But how proue you that Marianus reports , that this Pope Ioane was chosen in the yeare 853 ? PAP . n By his owne wosds . For thus he writes . Anno octingentesimo quinquagesimo tertio Leo Papa obijt Kalend. Augusti . Huic successit Ioanna mulier annis duobus , mensibus quinque , diebus quatuor . In the yeare 853. Leo the Pope died on the Kalends of August : and Ioane the woman succeeded after him for the space of two yeares fiue moneths , and foure dayes . PROT. These are not Marianus words . For he sets not downe the yeare precisely , but in numerall figures , by the side of the text . o And it is plaine , by conference of yeares , that he meant to note out the 855 for her entrance , and not the 853. For Benedict the 3. who succeeded her , entred not ( by his account ) till the yeare 857. Now if she had entred 853 , she had bene Pope foure yeares , or thereabouts . For betweene 853. and 857. there runne foure yeares ; whereas in plaine words he notes , that she was Pope but two yeares , fiue moneths , and foure dayes . Secondly , it is plaine by Marianus Scotus , that Sergius the 2. began his popedome in the yeare 844. and sate three yeares . It is plaine . that Leo the fourth , next successor to Sergius , began his in the yeare 847 , and sate eight yeares . Now put these three odde summes 4 , 3 , and 8 , to 840 , and they will make 855. So that whosoeuer succeeded Leo the 4 , must begin in the yeare 855 ; and that was Ioane the woman , in Marianus opinion . PAP . Why , but right ouer against these figures 853 , these words are set : Leo Papa obijt Kal. Aug. Leo the Pope died on the Kalends of August . And doth not that argue , that in Marianus opinion , Leo died that yeare ? PROT. No. No more then the words following , Huic successit Ioanna mulier , &c. which are set iust ouer against these figures 854. do argue that she began her popedome the next yeare after : or that Leo the 4. began his popedome in the yeare 852 , because right ouer against that number , his entrance vpon Sergius death is mentioned . Is not your next argument better ? PAP . The people of Rome , about that time , were euill affected towards the Pope , p and so was the greater part of all Italie : for that Charles had subdued them , and giuen them to the Pope . Now if such an accident as this had falne out , it might haue giuen them iust cause to haue falne from the Pope againe : for they might haue pretended that they would not be subiect to a womanish and an whorish gouernment . But we reade of no such thing . Ergo. PROT. Charles rescued Italie out of the hands of the Lombards , with the great good liking both of the Romans and the rest of Italy . But he neuer turned them ouer to liue vnder the Popes gouernment . All his life he kept them in obedience to himselfe , and by will bequeathed the whole countrey to his yongest sonne Pipin , as q Baronius sheweth out of the French histories . Ergo this argument is naught : let me haue a new one . PAP . r The Popes about the time of this your supposed Pope Ioane did take vp roundly both kings and Emperours for their adulteries . Which is a plaine argument , there was no Pope Ioane in that Sea guiltie of any such crime . PROT. What kings and Emperours were these , whom the Popes tooke vp so roundly for their adulteries ? PAP . Ludouicus the Emperour was one . For Gregorie the fifth , turned him into a Monasterie for his adulterie with one Iudith : that there he might ( apart ) do Penance for his sinne . PROT. Gregorie the fifth liued almost 150. yeares after Pope Ioane ; and besides , there was no Emperour called Ludouike in his time . Perhaps Florimondus would haue said Gregorie the fourth , for he liued not long before Pope Ioanes time , and in his dayes there was one Ludouike an Emperour . PAP . Indeed it may be so , for the numerall figure might soone be mistaken . For Gregorie the fourth , a man may easily set downe Gregorie the fifth . And what say you to it ? PROT. I say Florimondus is a palterer . For Ludouike , who liued in Gregorie the fourths time , was neuer noted for an adulterer , with anie Iudith , nor with anie woman else . Iudith his wife was suspected of that sinne with others , and thereupon was veiled , and thrust into a Monasterie by some of the Princes of the Empire . And Ludouicke himselfe , vpon other pretences , was for a time depriued of the Empire . But Gregorie the fourth had no hand either in her veiling , or in his depriuation , as you may see by t Baronius . Besides , this fell out before Pope Ioanes time : and therefore doth not hinder but that there was such a Ioane . Me thinks you should be drawne drie , you talke so idlely . PAP . a If there had bene such a Pope Ioane , some historian would haue written either good or bad of her . But we reade nothing of her in any historie . PROT. Do we reade nothing of her in any history ? whence haue we this of her aspiring to the Popedome , and of her lewd behauiour in the time of her Popedome ? haue I not proued it vnto you out of the histories ? PAP . Yea , but my meaning is , b that we reade nothing in any historie of her reforming the Church : of her determining of causes and questions , usually proposed by Bishops to them that are Popes , of any intercourse or affaires , that she had with King or Emperour . PROT. No more do we reade in any historian , of any such act done by Anastasius the third , who sate as Pope two years and vpward . Anastasius the third ( as c Platina witnesseth ) did nothing worthy of remembrance . We reade nothing of any great Acts done by Leo the seuenth . He sate 3 yeares , and sixe moneths : yet he did as d little as Anastasius , for any thing we reade ; he neither reformed the Church , nor resolued any Bishop his doubts : nor intermedled with any Princes . PAP . e Oh but that age , wherein you feigne that this Ioane liued , was an age wherein fell out great varietie of matter , both in the East and in the West . In it many Princes and Emperours of great worth reigned . In it many men of great learning liued . And therefore if there had bene any such monster then , we could not but haue heard of it on all sides . PROT. So we haue , as before I proued . But what great varietie of matter fell there out in that age more then ordinarie ? PAP . f In that age there was old holding and drawing between the Easterne and Westerne Churches about Images . Many Councels were kept by both sides , and many euill words passed on all hands . PROT. Go , go , I am ashamed of you , and of Florimondus your maister . All stories testifie that the difference betweene the Easterne and the Westerne Churches about Images , began in the former ages : and that , though they continued some few yeares after the yeare 800 , yet there was no talke of that matter for diuerse yeares before Pope Ioanes dayes . Yet I am willing to heare you speake on . Wherefore tell me what store of learned men that age brought out ? PAP . Great store , but it were too long to reckon them . PROT. It may be so . Yet you must know that they went for learned men in that age , g who were but bare Grammarians . And therefore were they neuer so many , Pope Ioanes acts might passe vnwritten . PAP . h Yea but I would gladly know of you , what Dukes , what Princes , what Kings , what Emperours , this Ioane inaugured , and crowned : what Embassadors she entertained , what honors she bestowed vpon any persons . PROT. Indeed you pose me now : especially in that which concerns the inauguring and crowning of Dukes , and Princes , and Kings , and Emperour . For I remember none inaugured or crowned by her , PAP . I thought so . And therefore you do well to confesse●it . I trust at length you will also confesse that there was no Pope Ioane . PROT. Why I pray you ? did euery Pope inaugure and crowne either Dukes , or Princes , or Kings , or Emperors ? PAP . Nay I say not so . But in that age the Emperours themselues had such a reuerend opinion of the Romane Popes , that they would not take vpon them to reigne , except they gaue them their consent and crowned them . PROT. How proue you that ? PAP . i By this , that Adrian the first , baptized the two sonnes of Charles the great , and after that annoynted them kings . PROT. This proues not your purpose : for this fell out in the yeare 781 , as k Baronius notes : and not in that age wherin Pope Ioane liued . But do you thinke that euery Pope in that age inaugured some Dukes or Princes , or Kings , or Emperours ? I would gladly know of you what Duke , or Prince , or King , or Emperour was inaugured , or crowned by Pope Eugenius the 2 , who sate in the yeare 824 , or by Pope Valentinus , who sate in the yeare 827 , or by Pope Gregory the 4. who succeeded Valentinus : or by Pope Sergius the second , who fate in the yeare 844. or by Pope Leo the 4 , who sate in the yeare 847. I am sure neuer a one of these crowned any Emperour . And I remember not that any one of these annoynted any Duke , or King , saue Leo the 4 , who annoynted Alfred the yongest sonne of Athelwulfus king of England . Which furthered him nothing to the attaining of the kingdome . For till the death of his three elder brethren , for all the Popes annoynting him , he liued like a subiect , he liued not like a king . Wherefore to put you in mind of the maine point ; though Pope Ioane inaugured , or crowned no such persons as you speake of , yet you cannot conclude therupon : Ergo , there was no Pope Ioane . PAP . m But if she bestowed no honors vpon any persons : if she made no Bishops : if she gaue no Bishoprickes : it is more then probable there was neuer any such . PROT. Oh but we reade , that contulit sacros ordines , promouit Episcopos , ministrauit Sacramenta , caeteraque Romanorum Pontificum exercuit munera : she gaue orders : she made Bishops : she administred the Sacraments , and she performed all other offices belonging vnto the Papacie . PAP . Where reade you that ? I warrant you , you had it out of Bale : of whom I wish you to see at your leasure , what n Florimondus censure is . PROT. Iohn Bale ( for ought I know ) is farre honester man , then Florimondus . And to tell you truth , if Florimondus raile vpon him , I shall haue the better opinion of him . For as o Tertullian perswaded himselfe that whosoeuer knew Nero , would easily beleeue Christianity were good because it was disliked by Nero : so I perswade my selfe , that whosoeuer knowes Florimondus , he will the rather be well perswaded of Iohn Bale , because he is reuiled by Florimondus . But yet I would haue you know , I read not this in Bale only , but in p Cornelius Agrippa : a man much commended by q Leo the 10. and in a r booke of his solemnly priuiledged by Charles the 5. PAP . Well sir , sith these reasons preuaile not with you , I will come a step or two nearer you . And first to proue your storie a fabulous fiction , I argue thus . ſ If the report of Pope Ioane be not afabulous fiction , then Nicolas the first Pope of that name , who at the time of her election was a Cardinall , gaue her a voice , and so consented to her election . But it is not credible that Nicolas gaue her a voice , and consented to her election . Ergo. PROT. First , I denie that Nicolas was a Cardinall at the time of Pope Ioanes election . For he was made t Subdeacon by Sergius the second , and u Deacon by Leo the fourth . In which order he continued x till the death of Benedict the 3 , who sate after Ioane . Secondly , I denie we are bound to beleeue that he gaue Pope Ioane his voice , though we should grant he was a Cardinall . For it was neuer required , that all the Cardinals should giue consent to any Popes election . But principally I denie your minor proposition , viz. that it is not credible Nicolas gaue her his voice , and consented to her election . And how can you proue it ? PAP . y If Nicolas had giuen her a voice , and consented to her election , then could he not honestly haue reproued Photius Patriarke of Constantinople , for that he suffered himself of a meere lay-man to be made a Patriarke . z Neither could he iustly haue reproued Michael the Emperour , for that he gaue his consent to Photius ordination and election . But ( no doubt ) he reproued them both honestly and iustly . Ergo he neuer gaue Pope Ioane his voice , he neuer consented to her election . PROT. Why might not he without note of dishonestie reproue Photius and the Emperour for their dealing , though he himselfe had a hand in Pope Ioanes election ? PAP . Because he should haue bene guiltie of the same fault , if not of a greater : for a woman ( you know ) is not capable of holy orders . PROT. Oh is that it ? As though there were not a maine difference betweene Nicolas his fact ( to suppose he did it ) and the fact of Photius and the Emperour . Photius and the Emperour did that wittingly and willingly , which Nicolas reproues in them . Nicolas chose a woman Pope vnwittingly . It was with Nicolas ( in all likelihood ) at the election of Pope Ioane , as it was with the h 200 of Ierusalem , who were called by Absalon to Hebron : of whom the Scriptures witnes that they went in their simplicitie , knowing nothing . Now ignorance , inuincible ignorance , such as this was , excuseth , though not from all fault , yet from so great fault . Wherefore you must come nearer me yet , if you meane to driue me from my opinion . PAP . Haue at you then , and that with a i golden argument , k such as can neuer be answered , and this is it . l About 170 yeares after this deuised election of Pope Ioane ( to wit , vpon the yeare of Christ 1020 ) the Church and Patriarke of Constantinople being in some contention with Rome , Pope Leo the ninth wrote a long letter to Michael the Patriarke of Constantinople , reprehending certaine abuses of that Church , and among other , that they were said to haue promoted Eunukes to priesthood , and thereby also a greater inconuenience falne out , which was , that a woman was crept to be Patriarke . m Now ( no doubt ) Leo would neuer haue durst to write thus , if the Patriarke might haue returned the matter backe vpon him againe , and said : This was but a slanderous report , falsly raised against the Church of Constantinople , but that a woman indeed had bene promoted in the Romaine Church . PROT. Is this your golden and vnanswerable argument ? Truly I am sorie for you , that you haue no more skill in an argument : for you presume in this , that Leo would neuer obiect that against Constantinople , whereof Rome it selfe might be conuinced ; and make that the ground of your conclusion . Now that is a slabbie ground , as may appeare by this , that it is ordinarie with you Papists to obiect that against others , whereof your selues stand most guiltie . It is ordinarie with you Papists , to call your enemies , whores first . Do not you complaine with open mouthes of vs Ministers , for want of continencie ? and yet is it not well knowne , that your priests and monkes , n like fed horses , haue neighed after their neighbours wiues : and your Nunnes haue opened their feete ( to o vse the Prophets phrase when he speaketh of such like light skirts ) to euery one that passed by , and haue multiplied their whoredomes ? Taceo de fornicationibus & adulterijs , à quibus qui alieni sunt , probro caeteris ac ludibrio esse solent , Spadonesque aut Sodomitae appellantur : saith p Nicolas Clemangis , speaking of your priests . I say nought of your priests fornications and adulteries , from which crimes if any man be free , he is made a laughing stocke to the rest , and either called an Eunuke or a Sodomite . Laici vsque adeò persuasum habent nullos coelibes esse , vt in plerisque parochijs non aliter velint presbyterum tolerare , nisi concubinam habeat : quo vel sic suis sit consultum vxoribus ; quae ne sic quidem vsquequaque sunt extrapericulum , saith the q same man. The lay people are so conceited of the incontinencie of all priests , that willingly they would not haue a parish priest , vnlesse he haue a whore of his owne , that so they might keep their owne wiues . And yet for all that , they are scarce sure of their owne by that course . Fornicantur complures Monialium cum suis Praelatis , ac Monachis , & conuersis , & in Monasteriis plures parturiunt filios & filias , quos ab iisdem praelatis , Monachis , & conuersis fornicarie , seu ex incestuoso coitu conceperunt , saith t Theodoricus de Niem , Secretarie to Pope Vrban the 6. going on thus , Et quod miserandum randum est , nonnullae ex huiusmodi Monialibus aliquos foetus earum mortificant , & infantes in lucem editos trucidant , &c. Many Nunnes commit fornication with Bishops , and Monkes , and Conuerts , and are deliuered of sonnes and daughters within their Monasteries , which were got by those persons fornicatorlike , if not incestuously . And which is most pitifull , very many of these Nunnes kill with saberdisauces the fruite in their wombes : many kill them after they be borne . Quid obsecro aliud sunt hoc tempore puellarum Monasteria , nisi quaedam Veneris execranda prostibula , & lasciuorum , & impudicorum inuenum ad libidines explendas receptacula ? vt idem sit hodie puellam velare , quod & publicè ad scortandum exponere ? saith ſ Clemangis aboue named . What are Nunneries ( I pray you ) now , saue cursed stewes and places for meeting of wanton and shamelesse youths to satisfie their lusts in ? So that now it is all one , to make a wench a Nunne , and to make her a whore . * Iohannes Cremensis , one of your Romish Cardinals , held a Councell at London in the yeare 1125. wherein he inueyed bitterly against such priests as kept concubines , dicens summumscelus esse à latere meretricis ad corpus Christi conficiendum surgere , saying , it was a damnable sinne for a priest to arise from a whore , to go to say Masse : yet he himselfe loued a whore with all his heart . For as we reade in our English stories , ipse cum eadem die corpus Christi confecisset , cum meretrice post vesperam interceptus est : he himselfe was taken with a whore the same night after he had said Masse . And as it seemes , * he was taken in the maner : for the historiographers note , Res notissima , negari non potuit : the matter was so plaine , it could not be denied . Againe , do you not condemne vs of ignorance , t reporting by vs , that we are afraid to reason with common Catholicks ; and that when we do reason , the common sort of Catholickes are able to answer all our arguments , and to say also more for vs , then we can say for our selues : as though ye were the people onely , and wisedome must die with you . And yet are not we able to proue out of your owne mouths , that your Priests and Monkes were generally like the * sixescore thousand Niniuites , who had not so much wit , as to discerne betweene their right hand and the left ? Videas admitti ad sacerdotium caeterosque sacros ordines homines idiotas & illiteratos , vix morose ac sillabatim absque vllo intellectu legere scientes , qui Latinum & Arabicum aequaliter norunt : saith u Clemangis . Speaking of the ignorance of your Clergy . Thou maist see ignorant and vnlettered persons aduanced to Priesthood , and the other holy orders : which cannot reade without stutting and stammering , who haue as great skill in the Arabian tong , as in the Latine . And in an x other place : Quotusquisque hodie est ad Pontificale culmen euectus qui sacras vel perfunctorie literas legerit , audierit , didicerit , imò qui sacrum codicem nisi tegumento tenus vnquam attigerit ? How many are there now adaies preferred to Bishopricks , who so much as cursorily , haue either read , or heard , or learned , the holy Scriptures ? yea who haue so much as touched the bible except it were on the outside of the couering ? Hoc seculo Episcopatus & sacerdotia indoctissimis hominibus & à religione alicnis deferri solent — Hodiè Episcopi nostri ( paucis exceptis ) sacrarum literarum scientia caeteris ex populo longè inferiores sunt , saith y Duaren . In this age Bishoprickes and parsonages are bestowed on most vnlearned , and irreligious men . — At this day our Bishops ( except a few ) are more vnlearned , then the common people . Pudeat Italiae sacerdotes , quos ne semel quidem legisse constat nouam legem : apud Thaboritas , vix mulierculam inuenias , quae de nouo & veteri Testamento respondere nescit , saith z Aeneas Syluius . * Fie vpon the Priests of Italie , who neuer read ouer the new Testament : a man can hardly find a woman among the Thaborits who cannot answer roundly to any thing out of the old and new Testament . Ecclesiarum regimina minus dignis ( Rome vidcelicet ) committuntur , qui ad mulos magis quàm homines pascendos & regendos essent idonei . The gouernment of the Churches ( euen at Rome ) is committed to vnworthy persons : who are fitter to looke to the keeping of Mules then men . Thirdly , do not you vpbraid vs with basenesse , and vilenesse : accounting no better of our most reuerend Bishops , then vncircumcised Philistins , which ( as a you say ) were taken out of the raskalitie of the whole realme ? b Do not you giue out , that a great part of our clergie resteth in Butchers , Cookes , Catchpols , Coblers , Diers , and Dawbers , Fellons carrying their mark in their hand , in stead of a shauē crown : Fishermen , Gunners , Harpers , Innekeepers , Merchants , and Marriners , Netmakers , Potters , Apothecaries , and Porters of Bilinsgate , Pinners , Pedlers , Ruffling Ruffins , Sadlers , Shearmen , and Sheepheards , Tanners , Tilers , Tinkers , Trumpeters Weauers , Wherrimen , & c ? Do not c you report , that so many bankrupts , and infamous , and villanous wretches , are admitted to it , that none , almost , except he be driuen thereto by beggerie , will enter into it ? as though ye onely were the sonnes of Nobles , and we the children of Fooles , and the children of vllaines , which were more vile then the earth ? And yet are we not abie to proue against you , that you haue made Leuites , euen Bishops , and Priests , of the blinde , and the lame , of the flat-nosed , broken footed , broken handed , of the crooke-backt , and bleare eyed , of the sciruie and scabbed , of the lowest of the people , tag and ragge ? Si quis desidiosus est , si quis à labore abhorrens , si quis inocio luxuriari volens , ad Sacerdotium conuolat : quo adepto , statim se caeteris Sacerdotibus voluptatum sectatoribus adiungit , qui magis secundum Epicurum , quàm secundum Christum viaentes , & cauponulas seduli frequentantes , potando , commessando , pransit ando , conuiuando , cum tessaris , & pilo ludendo tempora tota consumunt : crapulati verò & inebriati pugnant , clamant , tumultuantur , nomen Dei & sanctorum suorum pollutissimis labiis execrantur , sicque tandem compositum , ex meretricum suarum complexibus ad diuinum altare veniunt , saith d Clemangis speaking of your Worthies . If there be any lasie fellow , any that cannot away with worke , any that would wallow in pleasures , he is hastie to be priested . And when he is made one , and hath gotten a benefice , he consorts with his neighbour Priests , who are altogether giuen to pleasures : and then both he , and they , liue , not like Christians , but like Epicures : drinking , eating , feasting , and reuelling , til the cow come home , as the saying is ; playing at tables , and at stoole-ball : and when they are well cramd , and tipled , then they fall by the eares together , whooping , and yelling , and swearing damnably , by God and all the Saints in heauen . And after all matters be somewhat pacified , then arising out of their whores laps they go to the Masse . Asciscuntur nunc ( saith e Platina ) non modò serui & vulgò concepti , ac nati , verumetiam flagitiosi omnes ex flagitioso quóque geniti . Now adaies not onely seruants , and they which are begotten and borne vnder hedges , are admitted to be of the Clergy , but euery vile fellow , and euery vile fellowes brat . Ex Aulicis perditissimis & quod omni aetate fuit post Christianorum memoriam inauditum , ex militibus deploratissimis , iisque sanguinariis — Dei loco ad Ecclesiae collocantur , imò repentè intruduntur gubernacula , saith f Lindan . Quid quod puerulis & adolescentulis creduntur haec tractanda ? Wretched Courtiers , forlorne and bloodie Souldiers ( a thing neuer heard of before among Christians ) are all vpon a sudden thrust in vpon the Church to manage it in Gods stead , yea boyes and yongsters are made Bishops and Prelates in the Church . Bibones , scortatores , aleatores , & qui haec vitia , vultu , cultu , incessu , totoque habitu prae se ferunt : passim ( ad Sacerdotium ) admittnnt . Erasm . Schol. in epistolam Hieron . de veste Sacerdotali ad Fabiolam . Doth not g Bellarmin charge vs with that fault , wherof you your selues stand condemned ? to wit , with making a woman a Pope , from which all the world , saue foule mouthed Papists , will questionlesse acquit vs ? Doth not h Parsons auow railing , and foule scurrilitie , to be proper vnto vs , and to our ancestours onely ; as though he and his were answerable to Moses in mildnesse , and of so temperate cariage , that butter would not melt in their mouthes , when yet the contrary appeareth by their owne bookes . The generall consent of all that euer haue throughly conuersed with Parsons , is this , ( saith i Watson the Quodlibetting Priest ) that he is of a furious , passionate , hote , cholericke , exorbitant working humour , busie headed , and full of ambition , enuy , pride , rancor , malice , and reuenge : whereunto may be added , that he is a most diabolicall , vnnaturall , and barbarous , butcherlie fellow , vnworthie the name , nay cursed be the houre , wherein he had the name of a Priest , nay of a religious person , nay of a temporall lay man Iesuite , nay of a Catholicke , nay of a Christian , nay of a creature , but of a beast or a diuell : a violater of all lawes , a contemner of all authoritie , a staine of humanitie , an impostume of all corruption , a corrupter of all honestie , and a Monopoly of all mischiefe . And is not this railing ? Now if this be thus ( to returne to the maine point ) why may we not thinke the Church of Rome to be faulty in electing Pope Ioane , though Leo reproued the Church of Constantinople with the same ? PAP . k Yea , but how could Leo haue answered the Patriarke of Constantinople , if the Patriarke might haue replied truly vpon him , that Rome was guiltie of such an ouersight ? PROT. Leo might haue answered the Patriarkes reply , as Ahab , who charged Elias with troubling of Israel , answered Elias , ( when l he replied : I haue not troubled Israel , but thou and thy fathers house : ) to wit , with silence . For otherwise I know not how he could haue answered him honestly . No more then I know how other of your Popes can answer other replies ( in other cases ) which may be made vpon thē . m Agatho one of your Popes , auoucheth , that the Romane Church neuer swarued from the tradition of the Apostles , that she neuer gaue eare to nouelties ; that the Pope his predecessors had euer boldly , strengthened their brethren , according to Christs commandement vnto Peter . For proofe thereof he appeales to all the world . In like maner Nicolas another of your Popes , speaking of his fellow Popes , n braues it out , that neuer one of them was so much as suspected to haue held an error . Now if a man should haue replied vpon them ( as any man might haue replied truly ) that Victor was suspected to haue held , that Christ was a pure man , and not God , which is witnessed by o Eusebius . That Zepherinus was suspected of Montanisme , which is testified by p Tertullian . That Marcellinus sacrificed to idols , which is witnessed by q Damasus , and acknowledged by r Bellarmine , though denied in some sort ſ by Baronius . That Liberius subscribed to the Arian heresie , which is reported by t Damasus , by u Athanasius , by x Ierome , and by y Sozomen . That Felix , as z some say , was an Arian , or at least , as a others say , communicated with the Arians . That Honorius the first was a Monothelite , and for that condemned by name in the b sixth and c seuenth generall Councels . How could Agatho and Nicolas haue answered this replie , thinke you ? We reade , that Tarasius the Patriarke of Constantinople charged your Pope Hadrian the first , with the crime of Symonie . And do you therefore thinke that he himselfe was free from symony ? or rather do you not know that he himself was grieuouslie suspected of symonie ? PAP . Yes I d know that though Tarasius was an holy man in his life , and approued so to be by miracles wrought after his death : e yet he was very greatly suspected of symonie . Wherefore I rather thinke , that you neuer read he charged Pope Hadrian with that fault . PROT. The Epistle which Tarasius wrote to Hadrian , wherein he reproueth him , for that is extant in print , so that you your selfe may reade it also if you will. PAP . I remember f Baronius talkes of such an Epistle . But he suspects that Balsamon , who first published it , did counterfet it , to discredit the Romane Sea. And indeed Balsamon loued not Rome . PROT. g Gentian Heruet , who translated the epistle into Latin , was nothing suspitious of it . No more was * Bignaeus , who put it into his Librarie of holy Fathers . Nor Posseuine , who mentions it in his Apparatus sacer . I see it goeth hard with you , when you are driuen to pleade , that the euidence I bring is forged . I thought that shift had bene proper to vs Protestants , for h you often vpbraid vs with it : but now I see it is common to vs with you . But why is Baronius suspitious of it ? PAP . Because it was first set out by Balsamon , who loued not Rome . PROT. Baronius saith therein vntruly . For proofe whereof I will vse no other witnesse but himselfe , his owne mouth shall condemne him . For i he himselfe confesseth , that Tarasij epistola ad Hadrianum Pontificem de Symoniaca haeresi profliganda ab Anastasio ad finem septimae Synodi positalegitur , nec non apud Theodorum Balsamonem in Appendice ad Nomacanonem Photii : that is , that Tharasius epistle vnto Hadrian the Pope , treating of the rooting vp of the sinne of Symonie , is to be read in the end of the seuenth generall Councell , where it was put by Anastasius : and withall in Theodorus Balsamon , in his Appendix vnto Photius Nomocanon . For if Anastasius placed it at the end of the seuenth generall Councell , then was not Balsamon the first that published it . For Anastasius liued about 300 yeares before Balsamon . For Anastasius liued about the yeare 860 , and Balsamon liued about the yeare 1180. PAP . You speake probably . k h But me thinkes , though men at that time had bene so farre bewitched and distract of their fiue wits , as they could not haue knowne a man from a woman : yet God himselfe , who appointed and ordained the Seate of Peter , whereof he would the whole Church to be directed ; should neuer haue departed so farre from his mercifull prouidence , as to suffer the same to be polluted by a woman , which is not of capacitie for holy orders . PROT. And why ( I pray you ) might not God as well suffer that Church to be polluted by a woman , as by so many monstrous men , of whom your owne historians write verie shamefully ? Why might not she sit there , as wel as Sabinian , that base and miserable companion , qui formidabili morte , & culpabili vita notatus est : who is taxed by your b writers , for his vile life and fearfull death ? Why might not she sit there as well as c Stephen the 6 , who ( as d I told you before ) tooke vp the carkasse of Formosus his predecessor out of the graue , brought it into iudgement before a Councell of Bishops , spoiled it of his papall robes , clad it with a laymans garment , indited it , arraigned it , condemned it , cut off three fingers of it , and cast it into the streame of Tiber : depriuing all them of their orders whom he had ordained , reordaining them againe ? Why might not she sit there , as well as Boniface the 7 , e who robbed S. Peters Church , and fled for a time to Constantinople ; who afterwards by symony and murthering two Popes , made himselfe Pope ; who in mischiefe outstr●pt the most notorious robbers and slayers by the high waies , that euer were : which in crueltie went before bloudie Sylla and Catiline , and such as sought the ruine of their countrie , f as your owne Baronius confesseth ; and who at length died like a beast ? Why might not she sit there , as well as Syluester the 2 , that famous coniurer , who gaue himselfe both bodie and soule to the diuel , that he might get the Popedome , and died thereafter ? Why might not she sit there ? — PAP . Nay , stay a litle . They say , it is a sinne to belie the diuell . Now g I perswade my selfe that you belie Pope Syluester : for I h reade , that he was reputed a notable man , both for his life and learning . PROT. How notable he was , let Platina speake , who i writes , that ambitione & diabolica dominandi cupiditate impulsus , largitione primò quidem Archiepiscopatum Rhemensem , inde Raucunatem adeptus , Pontificatum postremò maiore conatu adiuu●nte diabolo , consequutus est , hac tamen lege , vt post mortem totus illius esset , cuius fraudibus tantam dignitatem adeptus erat : that is , Syluester the 2. being diuellishly ambitious , got first by briberie the Archbishopricke of Rhemes , then of Rauenna , and after that by the diuels helpe the Bishopricke of Rome , yet vpon this condition , that when he died he should be wholy his , by whose meanes he attained to such dignitie . Haue you not cause to beleeue , that this fellow was notable for life and learning ? But perhaps Platina is singular in this . No. k Sigebert confesseth , that Syluester was thought to haue got the Popedome * il-fauouredly : and that he was * suspected of negromancie ; and that some said , the diuell brought him to his end . The same in effect is reported by l Benno Cardinalis , by m Martinus Polonus , by n Iohannes Stella a Venetian , by o Philippus Bergomensis , by p Renulfus Cestrensis , by q Matthaeus W●stmonasteriensis , by r Fasciculus Temporum , by ſ Charanza , and by t Aeneas Syluius : for , Non nos fugit Syl●estrum secundum diabolica fraude Romanum Pontisicatum ascendisse , saith Aeneas : we are not ignorant that Syluester the 2. got the papacie by diuellish subtiltie . PAP . Tut : all this is to no purpose : u Pope Siluester was learned in the Mathematickes , and such was the ignoran●e of that age , that thereupon they held him for a coniurer . PROT. Indeed x William●Malmsbury hauing related the same storie in substance with the aboue-named writers , supposeth that some might replie so , saying , Sed haec vulgata , ficta crederet aliquis . But some man peraduenture will say , this is but a mad tale , eo quod solet populus literatorum famam laedere , dicens illum loqui cum daemone , quem in aliquo viderint excellentem opere : because the common people are wont to say , that schollers who are singular in any thing do vse a familiar : yet he concludes , that he beleeues it for true . For mihi verò fidem facit de istius sacrilegio inaudita mortis excogitatio , ( y saith he ) I am verily perswaded , Sylucster was such a villaine , because of the strangenesse of his death . For , Curse moriens excarnificaret ipse sui corporis horrendus Lanista , nisi noui scelcris conscius esset ? For why should the butcherly fellow haue torne his owne flesh ( as he did ) but that he was guiltie of some strange sinne ? Do not you thinke there is reason in this question ? Doubtlesse your Onuphrius was afraid to answer it And therefore in his notes vpon Platina , where he labours to cleare Sluester of the imputation of a coniurer , z he takes day with his reader , to cleare him from so fearefull a death . PAP . * Yea but Syluester the second , is commended by Sergius the fourth , a very holy Pope , who liued within fiue yeares after him : wherfore it is not * credible that he died such a shamefull death . PROT. Say you so ? Doth not * Baronius confesse , that though Stephen the sixth , was a wicked fellow : and that as he entred into the Popedome like a theefe and a murtherer : so he died like a theefe : yet * Sergius the third , who succeeded within eight yeares after him , commended him : yea I●hn the ninth his next successor , who in that age was a singular honest Pope , commended him , as a man of blessed memorie . Vpon * which later confession , he makes this obseruation : Hic considera Lector , quanta solerent successores Pontifices quantulūcunque reprehensibiles praedecessorem reuerentia persequi , vt Iohannes Stephanum suum praedecessores tum sedis inuasione , tum etiam sessione , in omnibus plane execrandis facinoribus detestabilem , piaetamen recordationis Stephanum appellet . The effect of which Latine is , that it is worthie the obseruation , that the liue●Popes spake reuerently of the dead-Popes , were they neuer so naughty . Wherfore to go on why might not Pope Ioane sit there as well as Benedict the ninth , that vgly monster , as a Platina cals him , b who got the room when he was 12. yeares old , c who when he was cast out for his vnworthinesse , got it againe by strong hand within a few daies after ; and for feare that he could not keepe it long , sold it to another for money : who after his death d appeared partly like an Asse , partly like a Beare , confessing that he caried such a shape , because he liued like a beast in his life time ? Why might not she sit as well in S. Peters chaire , as Boniface the eighth , who e when he should vpon an Ashwednesday ( as the Popish manner is ) haue laid ashes vpon an Archbishops head , and religiously told him : that he was but ashes , and should returne to ashes : cast them in the Archbishops face , and eyes , maliciously telling him , that he was a Gibelline , & that he should die with the Gibellines ? of whom Celestinus his predecessor ( a man famous f they say for miracles ) g prophesied : That as he entred like a Foxe , so he should reigne like a Lion , and die like a Dogge , which fell out accordingly ? Why might not she sit there as well as Gregorie the 7 , commonly knowne by the name of Hildebrand , h who set both the Church and common wealth on fire ? i who hired a bad fellow to tumble downe great stones from the battlements of a Church vpon the Emperours head , to squeaze him in peeces , whilst he was at his prayers : k who cast the Sacrament into the fire : who ordinarily l carried about him a coniuring booke : m who shreudly bebumd his predecessour Alexander : who wrested the Scriptures to couer his leudnesse : n who at his death confessed , that the diuell set him on worke , to prouoke God to wrath against the world . Why might not she sit there as well as Iohn the 23 , o who was fitter for the campe , then for the Church ; for profane things , then for the seruice of God : as knowing no faith , no religion at all : p who taught againe and againe , and maintained it before many of good place : That there was no life after this , but that it was with men as with beasts . Who in a word liued so scandalously , that cōmonly he was called by them who knew him , a plaine diuell incarnate . Why might not she sit there as well as Iohn the twelfth , r who made Deacons in a stable , who made a boy of ten yeares old a Bishop , who made the Lateran a plaine stewes , who drunke to the diuell : who when he was at dice made his prayers vnto Iupiter and Venus , and to such Idolatrous Gods of the heathen . Who at length was slaine euen by the diuell himselfe while he was committing adulterie , as * before q I noted . If you cannot deny , but God hath suffred these and many as euill as any of these ( except the last ) to occupie S. Peters roome , you may well wonder with ſ Antoninus , at the storie of Pope Ioane , and say , Oh the depth of the wisedome of God , how incredible be his iudgements &c. But you haue no cause in this respect to denie it , you haue no cause to cast it off as a fable . But giue me leaue to aske you a question . How should this tale of Pope Ioane arise , if there was not such a Pope ? was there euer such a smoake and no fire ? such a report and no probabilitie ? PAP . No indeed . a Great lies arise alwaies out of some truth . And so did this . For Iohn the twelfth , ( to confesse a truth ) was a wenching fellow : and among other wenches which he kept , there was one called Ioane , who was all in all with him , and ruled the roast . Now the people perceiuing what hand she had ouer him , termed her Pope , and despised him . Whereupon the Churches enemies tooke occasion to slander the Church , as though the Church had ( indeed ) had a woman Pope . PROT. This is one of Florimondus reasons , is it not ? PAP . Yes . b He mentions this , and likes indifferently well of it . But he mentions it as out of Onuphrius . Wherefore take you it rather as Onuphrius answer to your question , then as Florimondus answer . PROT. Content : prouided that you tell me , how Onuphrius proues that Iohn the 12. had such a maisterfull whore called Ioane ? PAP . c Onuphrius proues that out of Luitprandus Ticinēsis , a writer of that age . For he witnesseth ( as Onuphrius saith , and Florimondus beleeues ) that Iohn the twelfth had 3. famous whores , of whom the fairest , and therefore the best beloued , was called Ioane . PROT. Luitprandus , d in the place cited by Onuphrius , witnesseth , that Iohn the 12. kept one famous whore whom he called Raynera , whom he made gouernor of many cities , and on whom be bestowed many golden crosses , and chalices belonging to S. Peter . In like manner he witnesseth , that he kept another called Stephana , and that he lay with married wiues , with widowes , with maides , who came to visite the Apostolicall Churches . And withall he witnesseth , that he kept a third called Anna ( who was a widow ) and her neece : making the pallace of Lateran no better then a baudie house . But he no where names any Ioane , on whom that worthy head of your Church , Iohn the 12. doted , Onuphrius ( I suppose ) mistook Ioanna , for Anna ; and Florimondus iustified the prouerbe , A foole beleeueth euery thing . Haue you not another answer to second this ? PAP . Yes . I haue two or three besides this ? PROT. That 's well . And what is the first of them I pray you ? PAP . This Iohn the ninth , was made Bishop of Bonony , and afterwards Archbishop of Rauenna , and at last Pope of Rome , by the meanes of one Theodora , a famous whore , who swayed all matters at Rome in those daies . Now the people perceiuing that this Theodora could turne this Iohn which way she would , and leade him whither she list , they held him worthier the name of a woman then of a man , and therefore called him Ioane , and not Iohn . Whereupon arose the report of a Ioane Pope . PROT. And who ( I pray you ) is the father of this answer . PAP . e Iohannes Auentinus , who by reason he was a Germaine borne , knew best ( no doubt ) the originall of this fable , as f Florimondus sheweth . PROT. Then Florimondus beleeues this too . PAP . He thinkes it verie probable . PROT. But so did not his countryman Genebrard . For , Auentinus lib. 4. Annalium fabellam esse asserit , à Theodora nobili scorto ortam , g saith Genebrard : Ego vero è recentioribus adulatoribus in Romanae sedis odium . &c. That is , Auentinus holdeth that this tale arose by reason of a noble whore called Theodora . But I thinke , some latter clawbacks ( of the Emperors ) deuised it to discredit the papal seate . Thus Genebrard . And is not Genebrards no , as good as Florimondus yea ? especially sith Genebrard h spent vpon his Chronicles ten whole yeares : whereas i Florimondus by reason of his Clients , can spare no time for such studies ? PAP . Genebrard was a worthy man , I k know . But I respect no mans person , wherefore giue me a reason why you dislike this conceit of Auentinus , approued by Florimondus . PROT. I will. Yet first I would haue you know , that though I grant , that Iohn , who was first B. of Bonony , then of Rauenna , and lastly of Rome , came to those Bishopricks by the meanes of Theodora a famous whore : in respect whereof , your l Cardinall historiographer makes question , whether he was a Pope or no ; and termes him m sometimes Pseudopontifex & Antipapa , a false Pope , and Antipope : n sometimes intrusor & detentor iniustus Apostolicae sedis : an intruder and an vsurper of the Apostolicall chaire : yet I denie that this was Iohn the ninth , for he was Iohn the tenth . Iohn the ninth came by good meanes to the Papacie , as your o Cardinall saith . p He caried himselfe honestly in it , and died naturally : but so did not this . q This confirmed a child vnder fiue yeares old in the Archbishopricke of Rhemes : at which fact r Baronius stands agast . ſ Then this , turpior nullus , cuius sicut ingressus in Cathedram Petri infamissimus , ita & exitus nefandissimus . There was neuer a filthier fellow then this . This entred with infamie , and died fearefully . t This was stifled with a pillow by the procurement of one as famous for whoredome , as Theodora who preferred him . PAP . This of whom Florimondus speakes , was stifled with a pillow by Theodoraes owne daughter . But it seemes you wrong her in her good name . For she caused him to be stifled , because she could not brooke his filthy kind of life with her mother , as u Florimondus notes . PROT. Florimondus will neuer be good . The daughter disliked not her mothers and the Popes course of life at all . She her selfe x played the whore with Sergius one of your Popes , and had by him Iohn the 11. y She married her husbands brother , and liued with him in incest . The onely cause why she procured him to be stifled , was her enuie to one Peter the Popes brother , as z Baronius proueth out of Luitprandus . PAP . But in good earnest , was not this Iohn , Iohn the ninth ? Florimondus a againe and againe cals him Iohn the ninth . And me thinkes he should not mistake him so often . PROT. In earnest this was not Iohn the 9. Florimondus was deceiued . PAP . Why , but Benedict the 4. succeeded Iohn the 9. did he not ? PROT. Yes , that is true . But Benedict the 4. succeeded not this Iohn . Iohn the 11. as b Luitprandus writes : or rather Leo the 6 , as c others write , succeeded this Iohn . PAP . Florimondus writes , that Benedict the 4. succeeded this Iohn : and obserues withall a knacke of knauerie in those who report this story , in that they fathered this tale vpon a Iohn , whom a Benedict succeeded . PROT. Obserue you then a knacke of foalerie , or knauerie , or rather foolish knauerie in Florimondus . For I tell you once againe , d that Benedict the 4. succeeded not this Iohn : all histories are against it . e But suppose he was Iohn the 9. If his loose cariage of himselfe with Theodora , gaue occasion of the report of a woman Pope , why was it not recorded as hapning in his time , but aboue fortie yeares before his time ? Iohn the 9. was made Pope in the yeare 901 : yet this storie is recorded as hapning about the yeare 854. PAP . f That came to passe by the subtiltie of the reporters . For about the yeare 800. the Empresse who in a manner ruled all the world , was called Theodora . Now these trifling tale-tellers hearing of a Pope Ioane in Theodoraes time , chopt it into the time of Theodora the Empresse , who liued about thirtie yeares before the harlot Theodora . PROT. This would rather argue simplicitie then subtiltie in the reporters . For , cui bono , whether it happened in the one , or in the other Theodoraes time ? But it carries no colour of truth with it . For Theodora the Empresse neuer caried any sway in Rome at all . At Constantinople , for a while in the time of her sonnes minoritie , she could do something : g but in Pope Ioanes time she was turned out of office at Constantinople . She was deposed from her regencie , and thrust into a Monasterie , where she was kept till her death . What is one of your other answers . PAP . My third answer to your maine question is , that perhaps this tale arose from Iohn the 8. For Iohn the 8. dealt not like a man in the case of Photius Patriarke of Constant inople , but she●pishly and like a woman . For Iohn the 8 , receiued Photius into communion , who was excommunicated by his predecessors . Iohn the 8. suffered himselfe to be ouercome by halfe a man. Whereupon in reproach he was called , non Papa , sed Papissa . And vpon that reprochfull speech , came this tale of a woman Pope . PROT. Who deuised vs this answer , I pray you ? PAP . This is h Baronius answer . PROT. Baronius answer ? Is that possible ? Is not Baronius one of them who holds , that the rumour of the Church of Constantinoples ouersight , in suffering a woman to creep in to be Patriarke , occasioned this tale against Rome ? PAP . Yes marry is he . For hauing set downe Pope Leo his words touching that rumour : Quae ita erant fama vulgata de Ecclesia Constantinopolitana , conuersa in Romanam Ecclesiam à schismaticis eam odio prosequentibus , & calumnijs proscindentibus , quis non intelligat ? i saith Baronius : that is , Who seeth not , that what was reported of Constantinople , the same was turned by schismatickes as spoken against Rome . ? PROT. And with what honestie can he say both ? k N. D. who holds of this later opinion , professeth , that it seemeth most certaine , that in Pope Leo his time , viz. 1020 , there was not so much as any rumour or mention of any woman Pope that euer had bene in the Romane Church . So doth Baronius himselfe : for verily ( l saith he ) if there had bene but some flying tale of any such accident at Rome in former dayes , Pope Leo should first haue cleared it , before he had charged the Church of Constantinople with the like . Was there not so much as a flying report of a woman Pope before Leo the 9 his time , in Baronius opinion ? How then did Iohn the 8. occasion such a report , who liued an 140 yeares before Leo ? But let Baronius go with this scape . What reason haue you to thinke that the rumour of Constantinople might occasion this tale against Rome ? PAP . m Good reason . For euery man knowes that Constantinople was called New Rome , and Rome simply . Now a man might easily be deceiued , in supposing that to be done in Rome in Italy , which was reported to be done in Rome , but in Rome in Grecia . PROT. That Constantinople was called New Rome , n I easily yeeld vnto you . But that it was at any time called simply Rome , that your Florimondus is not able to make good . That 's his owne fancie ; and in deliuering it he bewrayes his owne folly . Yet to suppose it true : why did not the relators of it , set it downe as hapning in Leo his time , but 240 yeares before : if so be it was occasioned by the report that went of Constantinople in Leo his daies ? If it had thence begun , it should haue bene registred as then hapning . PAP . Well : suppose it were true : what gaine you by it ? or what is the Church preiudiced by her ? If Pope Ioane had bene , she had not preiudiced the Church , a saith N. D. PROT. But she had . For if she was Pope , then it will follow thereon necessarily , that the Church ( according to your learning ) once hopt headlesse . For the Church ( in b your learning ) is defined to be a companie of Christian men professing one faith vnder one head , to wit , the Pope . But she , how euer she caried the name of Pope , was no Pope . c For a woman is not capable of holy orders . A woman cannot play the Pope . Ergo all the time of Pope Ioane , the Church hopt headlesse . PAP . Indeed the only inconuenience of such a case is , d as N. D. confesseth , that the Church should lacke a true head for the time . But that is not so great a matter : for so she doth when any Pope dieth , till another be chosen . PROT. What is that you say ? Doth the Church hop headlesse , when one Pope dieth , till another be chosen ? Now alas what a pitifull case is the Church in then ? Since Christs time e there haue bene aboue 240 Popes . And therefore by your saying , the Church hath bene headlesse aboue 240 times . Yea , and sometimes betweene the death of one Pope , and the choosing of another , there haue passed many dayes , many moneths , some yeares . As for example , f after Cletus , the Bishopricke of Rome was voide 20. daies : g after Clemens , 22. After Alexander the first , h 25. i After Pelagius the first , 3 , moneths and odde daies . k After Pelagius the second , 6. moneths & odde daies . l After Iohn the third , 10. moneths and odd● daies . m After Sabinian , 11. moneths and odde daies . n After Honorius the first , one yeare and more . After o Clemens the fourth , two yeares and more . p After Marcellinus , 7. yeares and more , After Nicolas the 1. ( q as some say ) 8. yeares and more . And after F●lix , sometimes the Duke of Sauoy , S. Peters chaire stood empty 10. yeares , r saith Bodin . Wherupon will follow , that the Church hath often and long together bene headlesse . But that is not so great a matter you say : Is it not ? Whence I pray you , should the Church haue her wit , when she is bereaued of her head ? The saying is , Great head , litle wit. But without question : no head , no wit. When the Church is headlesse , she is witlesse , and by consequent helples . And therefore , I take it , you haue good cause to beware that you grant nothing whereon it may be concluded : That your Church was once headlesse . PAP . ſ But did not Saint Austin hold opinion , vpon supposition of a like case , that the Church of Christ , should not be preiudicated ? Did not t he , hauing recited vp the Popes of Rome from Christ to his daies , make this demand : what if any Iudas or traytour had entred among these , or bene chosen by error of men ? and answereth presently : Nihil praeiudicaret Ecclesiae , & innocentibus Christianis . PROT. Yes . But considering the body of your doctrine , you may not answer so , nor think so . For you hold that your Pope is head of the Church , and that it is necessarie vnto saluation to acknowledge him the head : but so did not S. Austin . You hold that in a true Church one Bishop must lawfully succeed another , or all is dasht : but so did not Saint Austin . For he puts the case , that some traitor subrepsisset , that is , had come in vnorderly into the Bishop of Romes Seate : and yet resolues , that that was not preiudiciall to Gods Church . Conforme your selues in these two points , of the Popes headship , and succession , to Saint Austins iudgement : and then you may better say in this case of Pope Ioane , that which Austine said in the case proposed : That she had not preiudicated the Church of Christ . PAP . We make more reckoning of Saint Austin then you do . But I will not stand wrangling vpon his meaning now . u Because whatsoeuer inconuenience can be imagined in this case , is more against you , then vs. For your Church admitteth for lawfull and supreme head thereof either man or woman , which our Church doth not . PROT. Our Church admitteth neither man nor woman for lawfull and supreme head of the Catholicke Church , as yours doth . Our Church teacheth that Christ onely is the head thereof . Our Church admitteth neither man nor woman for lawfull and supreme head of a particular Church . For our Church acknowledgeth the king supreme gouernor only , not supreme head : and so she x stiled Queene Elizabeth in her time , Though if we giue our Princes more , yet the inconueniences against vs , are not like the inconueniences against you ; because the next in blood is to succeed with vs ; the greatest Symonist , who can make his faction strongest , is to succeed with you . PAP . What other inconuenience followes vpon this accident , to suppose it true ? PROT. If it be true there was such a Pope , your Church must be discarded as no true Church . For thus I argue : a That is no true Church , which cannot giue in plaine authenticall writing , the lawfull , orderly , entire , without any breach , and sound notorious succession of Bishops . But your Church , if Ioane was Pope , cannot giue in plaine authenticall writing , the lawfull orderly , entire , without any breach , and sound notorius succession of Bishops . For by reason of her Benedict the third , could not orderly succeed Leo the fourth . She put in a caueat , or rather , was of her selfe a barre to his successiō . By her a breach was made in the rank of your Popes . She , no foole , but a whore , marred your play . PAP . No , no. For all that you can rightly gather vpon her Popedome is , That the Popes seate stood empty of a lawfull Pastor for the space of two yeares , and a few odde moneths . Now so it did often by reason of the differences among the Electors , as you your selfe shewed . And yet no man durst say , nor could truly say , that succession failed , as b Baronius notes . PROT. As Baronius notes ? If Baronius may be iudge , there is nothing that can marre your succession , neither vacancie , nor entrance in by the window . Whether the chaire be emptie , or full , by irrepsion , or by vsurpation , it is all one to Baronius . Baronius will not giue ouer his plea of succession . For though he ( not without griefe ) c confesseth , that many vgly monsters haue sate in S. Peters chaire : though d he confesseth that many Apostataes , rather then Apostolicall persons , haue occupied that roome : though e he confesseth , that there haue bene many Popes , which came irregularly to the Papacy , and serued for no other purpose then ciphers in Arithmetike , to make vp the number ; yet he holdeth their succession sound . Though f Baronius writes , that Boniface the 6. who got possession of S. Peters chaire , and kept it 15. daies , was a wicked fellow , and not worthy to be reckoned among Popes , in as much as he was condemned by a Councell held at Rome . Though he g write , that Stephen the 7 , * such another as Boniface the 6 , or rather worse , played at thrust out rotten with Boniface the 6 , and kept the Papacy 5. yeares . Though h he write , that Pope Christopher shuffled Leo the 5. out , and by violence installed himselfe , and kept it 7. moneths : and that Sergius at the 7. moneths end shuffled Christopher out , shearing him a Monke , and keeping it to himselfe , as some say seuen yeares , as i Baronius himselfe saith , three yeares : yet all this shuffling in Baronius opinion , doth nothing staine succession . Yea , though he cannot deny that Boniface the seuenth , who sate as Pope one yeare and one moneth , was a k wicked varlet , a plaine tyrant , a sauage beast , an vsurper , one that had no good propertie of a Pope . Though he cannot deny but that Leo the eight , who was a schismaticke , and an intruder , and an Antipope , b in his opinion , kept the place almost two yeares . Though he cannot deny but that Iohn the twelfth m who was but like a Pope in a play , kept it nine yeares : and n Iohn the 11 , the bastardly brat of Sergius aboue named , l who came to it by euill meanes and managed it accordingly , kept it 6. yeares : and o Iohn the 10. as false a lad as any of his fellowes , who entred by fraud , and ruled with violence , kept it 15. yeares : yet this lessens nothing the credit of his succession . I warrant you , Baronius was of Genebrards opinion , p who though he granted that fiftie Popes together came in vnlawfully , and gouerned as madly , would not yet let his hold of succession go . PAP . Is there any further inconuenience , which may light vpon vs , if this story be true ? PROT. Yea. For if it be granted there was such a Pope , the Popish Priests among you may wel doubt of the lawfulnes of their missiō : & you lay papists of the sufficiency of the absolutions , which they giue you vpon your Eare-confessions , and of the truth of the Reall presence , and Transubstantiation . For a vnlesse the Popish Priests be priested by a lawfull Bishop , their Priesthood is not worth a rush : b vnlesse you lay Papists be absolued by a lawfull Priest , your absolution is nought worth : & c vnlesse the words of consecration be vttered by a lawfull Priest , intent vpon his businesse , there followes no substantiall change in the creatures of bread and wine . Now how can your Priests be assured that they were Priested by lawfull Bishops : and how can you lay Papists be assured that you are absolued by lawfull Priests : or that your Masses are said by lawfull Priests : seeing we reade ( as d before I shewed ) that Pope Ioane gaue Orders , Pope 〈…〉 Deacons , and Priests , and Bish●● 〈◊〉 Abbo●● . For it may be well enough that the Priests 〈…〉 present age are 〈◊〉 from those who were 〈…〉 by her : especially seeing we no where reade , that they 〈◊〉 degraded by succeeding Popes , who had their ordin●●● from her . Her successors dealt not with her shauelings , as Pope Iohn the 12. did with Leo the 8. his shauelings . e Iohn the 12. degraded them all , and compelled euery of them to giue him vp a paper , wherein it was thus written : Episcopus meus ( meaning Leo the 8. ) nihil sibi habuit , ●●hil mihi dedit had nought for himselfe , and gaue me nought : but so did not Benedict the 3. with hers . Vnlesse you say , that communis error facitius , as f Lawyers said in the case of Barbarius Philippus I know not what you can reply with probabilitie to this and yet that will not serue your turne ; for though it may be so in matters of the common-wealth , in matters of the Church it cannot be so . For an error in the beginning , in matters touching the Ch●●●h , proues often an heresie in conclusion . In matters of the Church , prescription addes no credit to actions of euill beginning . FINIS . Errata . Page 3. line 1. for Ramulsus reade Ranulsus . Page 4 line 5. for 〈◊〉 reade declinant pag. 12. in margine , for sauior reade sauiour p. 19 l. 2. and 〈◊〉 for Thrithemius reade Trithemius . p. 20. l. 4. for ch●●d reade child . 〈…〉 for 5000. reade 50000. and for 1200. reade 11000. Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A19243-e140 2. Thess . 2. 10 , 11 b N. ● . in his wa●nword to S. Franc. Hastings wa●chword , ●ncounter . 1. ca. 2. c In his reproofe of D. Abbats defence o● Mr. Per●●●s . Preface to the Reader . p 10. d Apolog● ad lib. Iacob . mag . Britann regis cap. 15. p 208. e Bell 〈◊〉 . Baron . P● ghius , &c f 1. Tim. 4. 13. Notes for div A19243-e360 a Baron annot . in Martyol . Ro. Octob. 16. b. Lorinus in Act. Apost . c. 20. v. 30 Anastasius Cochelet Palaestrita honoris D. Hallensis pro Lipsio cap. 1. pag. 6. b Bellar. lib. 4. de Ecclesia , cap. 4. Rhem. annot . in Act. 11. 26. c Baron . annot . in Martyrol . Rolan . 10 c. d Annot. in 1. ad Cor. 13. e In Indice lib. prohibit . f Nouatian . de Trinitate , ca. 18 nu . 86. inter opera Tertulliani g Vi●es de Instrumento probabilitatis . h Maldonat . in Ioh. 4. 9. i Lib. 2. Retract . cap. 18. k Ratio . 10. l Fieri nequit vt Lutheranus mo riens saluetur , gehennam euadat ex aeternis ignibus eripiatur . Si mentior , damner ipse cū Lucifero , saith , Co●terus , Resp . ad refutationem Lucae Osiandr . Propostr . 8. pag. vlt. Notes for div A19243-e720 a An. 1602. Posseuin in errat . & praetermis . 1. to . quae habētur ad finem To. 3 Apparat. sac . b Vir , cùm primis illustris ac pius , & doctrina insignis . Baronius Annal. Tom. 10. ad An. 853. Nu 62. c Praecaeteris commendandus fama nobilis Florimūdus : Baronius loco citato . d Sic confecit mōstrum istud , vt nouat●●es pudeat , quae scripserunt vel somniasse . Ibi d. e Prorsus confodit haereticos q●i commentū illud spar●erunt in vulgus , vt amphus ea de fabula hiscere non audeant . In Apparatu sac . verbo , Florimondus . f Onuph . Annot . in Plat. in vita Ioh. 8. g Harding in his answer to Iuels Apology . h N. D. part . 2. c. 5. Nu. 21. pag. 391. of the 3. Conuers . i Idem nu . 36. pag. 403. k Ibid. l Idem nu . 21. pag. 391. m Idem . Nu. 36. pag. 403. n Impudentissimè ficta , stul . tissimè credita Bernartius de vtilitate legendae hist . lib. 2. p. 105. in marg . o Multos & magni nominis viros historiam hanc suscipere , cam quoque vulgo verum existimari Loco supra citato . p Batthol . Cassa . 2. part . Catal. gloriae mundi , nona Consideratio . Ioh. Turrecremat . in Summa lib. 4. part . 2. cap. 20. Carolus Molinaeus . cōment . in Parifiens . cō suetud . Tit. 1. nu . 26. Caelius Rhodigin . Antiquarum lect . lib. 8. cap. 1. n Philip. Bergom . in Supplem . chron . lib. 11. ad a● . 858. o Loco supra citato . p Lib. 3. de Ro. Pont. cap. 24. q Fabula Ioannae , c. 21. p. 184. r In Supplement Chron. ad An. 858. ſ De vitis pont . in vita Ioh. 8. t Cōfutat . of the Apologie , part . 4. fol. 166. u Annaliū Boiorum lib. 4. x Ioh. Auentinus author parum probatae fider : saith Bell Append. ad ●o . de sum . Pont cap. 10. y Infectā haeresis scabre bestiam pietate & doctrina omnino desertam . Baron Annal To. 10. ad 996. Nu. 54. z In Indicibus lib. prohibitorum . a Lib de priuilegijs & iuribus Imperij . b Florimond . lib citato . cap. 21. nu . 2. c Aelian de varia hist . lib. 10. d Epist . 120. z Lib. 3. de Ro. Pont. cap. 24. a Cap. citat . nu . 6 b 1. Sam. 14. 12. 13. c Cum Onuphrio Panuino antiquitatis perscrutatore diligentissimo vetus aliquod idolum existimaui . Florim . ibid. d Inscriptionem praefixisset . pag. 188. e Lib. 7. hist . cap. 14. f Mat. 9. 21. g Cap. 4. 7. 8. * Obserat . in Annal. tom . 1 ad an . 57. apud Posseuin . in Apparat sac . verbo . Caesar Baron . h Sixtus quintus hunc vicum rectiorem duci curauit , quo factum est vt imago illa sublata sit . Florim . cap. 21. p. 189. l Loco citato . n Historia Iesuitici ordinis , cap. 10. de Iesoitarum patre & matre . o Lib. 3. de Ro. Pont. cap 24. p Fabulosum , & ab imperito vulgo fictum . Annotat. in Plat. in vit . Ioh. 8. q Nobiliter doctus , historiographus celeberrimus . Trith . de Script . eccles . verbo . Iacobus Bergomensis . r In Supplement . Chron , ad An. 858. ſ De rebus Turcicis , l. 6. pag 98. t Cap. 18. p. 159. In ridiculorum authorum grege anumerandus est . u Aencid 9. lib. 1. * Wilhelmus Brewin in codice manuscripto de 7. Ecclesijs principalibus v●bis Romae . x Cap. 20. pag. 176. y Ibid p. 181. a Lib. 3. de Ro. Pont. cap. 24. b Cap. 20. p. 177. and 188. c N. D. in his Warn-word to Sir Fr. Hastings Encoūter 1. cap. 2. fol. 30. d Cap. Cum inter . Extrau . Ioh. 22. impress . Paris . 1513. & Lugduni . 1555 e Ioh. 20 28. f Planè supremum in terris numen . Stapleton princip . fid . doctrin praefat ad Greg. 13. g Part. 2. Moral . lib. de Iside & Osi●●de . h Stobaeus serm . 19. ex Aeliano . i Lib. 3. de Ro. Pont. cap. 24. k Cardinalatus celsitudo ac splendor , dignitati regiae comparatur Sixtus . 5. in constitut . 5. in princip . & sect . Praeterea . Ioh. Franciscus Leo. in Thesauro fori Ecclesiastici , part . 1. cap. 2. nu . 1. m Lib. 2 cap. 6 Conclus . 3. pag. 80 n Part. 3. cap. 2. p. 191. o Florim cap. 22. p. 194. p Pag. 195. q Si ea quae ab artificibus manu finguntur , credamus esse vera , interdum veteris & noui Testamenti historiam peruertemus , &c. Florim p. 193. r Lib. 2. de Imag. cap 8. ſ For Nazarites must drinke no wine . Numb . 6. 3. yet our Sauior did , Mat. 11. 19. & 26. 29. t Tho. de Truxillo . Ord. praedic . Domin . 1. Quadrag . conc . 1. u Gen. 3. y Teste Polydoro Virgilio de Inuent . rerum , lib. 5. cap. 9 z Hieron . ab Oleastro in Exod. 34. & Aug. Steuchus in recognit . vet . Test . ad Hebraicam verit . in Exod. 34. a Iansen . Concord . Euang. cap. 13. b In nouis Biblijs Sixti Quinti & Clem 8. yet he writ it 90 aetatis annum excedens , vt docet Baron . Annal To 1 ad An. 99. nu . 2. d Scultingus Confessio Hieronymiana . Polyd . Virg. de Inuent . rerum , lib. 4. cap. 9. e For proofe whereof see D. Rayn . de Ro. Ecclesiae Idololat . lib 1. c. 5. nu . 21. &c. f Lib. 2. de Ro. Pont. cap. 11. g Si huius commenti authores spectes , nihil illis vilius . Florim . c. 31. nu . 1. i Posseuinus Apparat. sacro . verbo . Barth . Caranza . k Cap. 31. nu . 6. l In Sum. Conc. P. 370. edit . Paril 1564. m Chronograph . lib. 2. n Krantius , homo Germanus , & qui ante Lutheranas contentiones scripsit : proinde nec odio nec amore ducebatur . lib. 2. de effectu Sacram. cap. 18. o Metrop . lib. 2. edit . Colon. 1574. & Francofurt . 1590. p De Script . Ecclesiasticis . verbo . Baptista Mantuanus . q Philip. Beroaldus Hieron . Carmelitae , ad initium To. 2. operum Mantuani . r Posseuin . in Apparatu sacro , Tom. 1. verbo . Baptista . ſ Tom. 3. lib. 3. Alphonsi . fol. 44. edit . Francof . 1573. t Cap. 22. nu . 3. u Stabuli pōtificij praefectum eum illa , laqueo in collum inserto suspensum , commentatur . Flor●m . Ibid. & cap. 23. nu . 6. x Achilles . Gassarus in Epit. hist &c. impres . Antuerp . in aedibus Stelsij . 1536. y In Officina Tit. Mulieres virilem habitum mentitae . a De Dict. factisque memorabilibus . lib. 8. c. 3 Tit. de foeminis quae doctrinâ excel . b So saith Allen cap. 5. of his defence of the Seminaries , and Posseuin . Apparat . sacr . verbo . Baptista Fulgosus c Epitom . histor . vniuersalis . cap. 111. d Lib. de Scriptoribus Ecclesiasticis . e In Chron. aetatum mundi , aetate 6. f Schedel de hac Ioanna verba facit , sed ita ieiunè , ita exiliter , ita incertè , vt de ea re dubitasse videatur . Florim . lib. cit , cap. 4. nu . 3. g Loco citato . * Ex impura Hussitarum familia , &c. h Ego Hartmānus Schedel , doctor Patauinus , &c. circa An. 1440. fol. 252 b. i Circa . An. 1410. fol. 238. a. k Historia Bohemica , cap. 35. l Lib. de Ecclesiasticis scriptoribus . m Supplement . chron . lib. 11. ad An. 858 impress Venetijs , An. 1486. n Lib. de Scriptoribus Ecclesiasticis o Lib. citato pag. 37. p Ibid. q Anthropologia . lib. 22. pag. 503. edit . Basil . An. 1559. r Reuerendus & vndecunque doctissimus vir . Paulus Langius in chron . Citizense ad An. 1515. ſ In chron . Monastern ●irsaugiensis ▪ t Sabellicus 〈◊〉 vndecunque doctissimus — claret hodie apud Venetos maximo in precio . Trithem . lib. de script . Ecclesiasticis . * Papir . Mason . de vrb . Episc . lib. 6. in Pio 3. u Aenead . 9. l. r. x In similem impudentiam incidit Sabellicus , &c. saith Florimondus , loco supra citato . y In chron . Citizense , post An. 1493. z Lib. d● script . Ecclesiasticis . a Fascicul remporum , aetate . 6. ad ●n . 854. b Lib. citato cap. 7 pag. 64 & 65. * Loco citato . * Viz. 1480. * By Henry Quentel . c Math. Palmerius , natione Italus . — qui in Conc. Florentino ( quod Eugenius Papa 4. contra Basil . Synodum celebrauit ) inter praeclarissimos viros annumeratus fuit . Trithem . de script . Eccles . d In chron . ad An. 853. e Bartholomaeus Plat●na Apostolicus abbreuiator , vir vnde cunque doctissimus , &c. Trith . de scrip● . Eccles . f De vitis Pontif . in Ioh. 8. g Impudens a●quis nebulo interpolauit scripta Platinae . Audiui ex Antonio Heetueldio , amplissimo laudatissimoque viro , Consulari Louaniēsi , dixisse sibi saepius Engelbertum Boonium — vidisse ●e Romae in Bibliotheca Vaticana , antiquissima Platinae exemplaria manuscripta , sedulò examinasse , & de Ioanne foemina ne lite●am quidem reperisse . Bernartius de vtilitate legendae hist . lib. 2 p. 111. h To. 2. de Poenitentia , lib. 3. cap. 13. i Prooemio lib. de vitis Pontif. in epistola ad Zistum 4. k Annotat. in Plat. in vit S. Petri Apostoli . l Lib. citato , ca. 4. pag. 36. m Si haec vera sibi persuasisse● , tanquam vnguis in vlcere fuisset , & odium quod in Pontifices conceperat , audacius euomuisslet . n De script . Ecclesiasticis . verbo , Bartholomaeus Platina . * Crudelissimè . * Apparet . ea quae dixi . ex his esse , quae fieri posse creduntur . o De rebus Turcicis . lib. 6. pag. 98. Quamuis apud Chalcocondilum Latinè red ditum , eiusmodi fabula reperitur esse descripta ; non tamen ab ipso authore positum scias , sed ab impostore Clausero fraudulenter appositum . p Annal. Tom. 10 ad An. 853. ●u . 66. q Ibid. Imposturam egregiè detexit Florimondus . r Florim . fabula Ioannae , cap. 6. nu . 2. ſ Ibid. Fidus interpres praetermittere non ausus fuisset , si in Graeco exēplari exaratum inuenisset . t Gretser . lib. 2. de iure &c. prohibendi lib. malos , cap 10. u In eo quod de barba radēda asserit , turpiter lapsus est . Florim . cap. 6. nu . 1. x Chronograph . lib. 2. * Greg. 7. lib. 8 Regist . Epist . 10 vt refert . Salmeron , disput . 18. in 1. Cor. 11. pa. 147. and Baron . Annal. tom . 1. ad An. 58. num . 142. y Rational . diuin . offic lib. 2. de Ministris , &c. z Pro sacerdotū ba●bis . a Cap. 10. nu . 5. & 6. b Lib. de priuilegijs & iuribus Imperij . c Cap. 3. & 4. d Trithem . de Script . Eccles . verbo , Ioh. Paris . & Posseuinus in Apparat sac . verbo , Ioh. Paris . e De Potestate Regia & Papali , cap 23. f Answer to B. Iewels Apology g Gotefrid . Viterbiensis Chro. part . 20. in Catalogo Ro. Pont. h De Script . Ecclesiasticis , verbo , Godefridus Viterb . Godefridus was Imperialis aulae Capellanus , & Nota●ius . Posseuin . Apparat. sac . verb. Godefrid . Viterb . i Veriùs dixerim , haec omnia ex Heroldi officina manasse , &c. Florim . c. 2. nu . 6. k Polonus in Chro. ad An. 855 * Gra. loquitur . Dia. vera docet . Re. verba collocat . Mu. canit . Ar. numerat . Ge. ponderat . As. colit astra . The three first make T●●uium . The foure later , Quadriuium . l In his Replie to D. Fulke . cap. 10. Demaund 45. pag. 373. m Dixerunt : homo sacerdos de semine Aaron venit , non decipiet nos . 1. Mac. 7. 14. in vulg . n Motiue 5. o Meterran hist . Belg. lib. 10. p Lib. 3. de Ro. Pont. cap. 24. q 3. Conuers . part 2. c. 5. nu . 29 p. 399. r Answer to B. Iewels chalēge . ſ Martinus Polonus fabulis tātū celebris , caetera obscurus homo . lib. 2. de vtilitate legend . hist . p. 113. t Archiep. Cosentinus , & Poenitentia●ius Papae . Posseuin . Apparat. sacer . verbo , Martinus Polonus . u Trithem . de Script . Ecclesiasticis , verbo , Martinus . x Vi● magnae doctrinae singugularis●ue vitae . Platina in vita Victor . 3. a Bernart . lib. citato , pag. 113. Florim . cap. 2. nu . 6. b Lib. de quatuor maioribus regnis , & Rom. vrbis exordio . Cap. de Rectoribus & regimine vrbis , pag. 10. c Bernart . & Florim . locis citatis . d Suoputat post exactos Reges ad Christum vsque . Cap de binis Coss . pag. 12 e Bernart . & Florim . locis citatis . f In Chron. in Domitian . p. 38. h Bernart . & Florim . locis citatis . i Lib. de 4. maioribus regnis , & cap. de Tēplis idolorum , pa. 8. k Bernart . & Florim . locis citatis . a Stromat lib 5. b In Chron. ad An. Christ 1. c Fabeha de collapso Romae Pacis templo , tempore Christs ortus , multipliciū haud vulgarium fuit scriptorum authoritate firmatum . Baron . Annal. tom . 10. ad an . 853. nu . 61 d Hom. quae legitur apud Lip. to . 8. & Sur. to . 6. e In catal . Sanct. lib. 2. cap. 1. f Ser. 2. de die Natiuit . Dom. g Fol. 297. edit . Paris . 1517. h Marian. Scotus in Chron. aetate 6. ad An. 854 i So he himselfe writeth in Chro. ad An. 1028. k Ab omnibus honore habebatur , & non sine opinione sanctitatis sepelitur . Trithemius de Script . Eccles . verb. Marianus . Ioh. Maior , de gestis Scotorum lib. 3. cap. 5. l Annal. tom . 1. ad ann . 34. num . 149. m N. D. lib. cicato . nu . 27. pag. 397. r In scripto codi ce ex quo prodijt prima editio ita legitur . Baro. Annal. to . 10. ad ann . 853. nu 60. f De Opt. gen . interpret . lib. 2. cap. 6. t Notat in Ioh. 21. 22. u Lib. citato . cap. 3. & 5. x Notat . in Psal . 13. y Annot. in Platin . in Honorio . 1. z Defens . fidei Trident lib 2. a Lib. 4. de Ro. Pont. cap. 11. b Moguntiae , Ann. 1602. c In Leone 2. d Onuph . Bell. Bernart locis supr . cit . & Florim . cap. 14. nu . 1. & Sanders de visibili Monarch . lib. 7. pag. 412. e Quod arundinibus percussum martyrium consummasse Zoticum dixerimus , emendamus . Haud enim fidelem nacti sumus testem , qui ea se ex Actis eius descripsisse , per li teras ad me datas , testatus est . Accepi post haec Acta Martyris , & nihil tale in allis reperi . In Martyrologium Rom. lan 12. f. g Si ita sit vt ipsi fingunt , qui post Marianū de Ioanna scripserūt , nonne ipsum Marianū in suae sententiae patrociniū afc●uislent , & suam hac arce opinionem muniuissent . ●lworim c. 2. nu . 4. b Praefat. in Chron. c Annot. in Plat. in vit . B. Petri. e Anastasius Papa voluit occultè reuocare Achatium Constantinop Epise . damnatū , quare diuino nutu percussus est . f Bell lib. 4. de Ro. Pont cap. 10 & Append. ad lib de summo Pont. & Pighius Eccles . Hierarch lib 4. c. 8. g De vit . Pontif. in Anastas . 2. h Chron. lib. 1. ad ann . 414. i Aetate 6. ad ann . 499. k In Chron. ad ann . 491. l De vit . Pont. in Anastas . 2. m De vit Pont. in vita Anastas . 2. n Dist . 19. c. Anastasius . o In Chron. ad ann . 498. p De vit . Pont. in Anastas . 2. q Lib. 22. r Supplé . Chron ad ann . 495. ſ Fascic . Temp. ad ann . 484. t De script . Eccl. verbo Anastas . u Summa . Conc. x Summa de Eccl. lib. 2. cap. 103 . y Nauclerus , Antomnus , locis infra ci● . a Locis suprà citatis . b Nauclerus vol 2. Chronogr . generat . 17 Antoninus part . 2. hist . Tit. 11. cap. 1. sect . 8. c Lib. 3. de Ro. Pont cap. 24. d Lib. citato nu . 27. pag. 397. e Lib. 4. de Ro. Pont. cap. 13. f Lib. 1. de Matrimonio . ca 17. g Annot. in lib. 2. Krantij Metrop . h Sigebert Gēblacensis in Chronico ad an 854 printed at Paris . 1513. i Lib. suprà citato . pag. 110. k Annot. in Plat in vit . Ioh. 8. l Bernartius loco citato . m 9. q. 3. patet . in Glossa Ioh. Andreae Familiaris est haec probatio quum Papa alium Papā adducit in testē . n Lib. 4 Chronolog . ad ann . 855. o Lib. citato nu 27. pag. 397. p Lib. 4. de Rō . Pont. cap. 24. a Protasius Frāciscani or dinis decus , ad stringendam fidem prius iurciurando deuinctus , mihi obtestatus est , &c. Florim . cap. 5. nu . 5. b Cap. 27 nu 6. extat adhue Michaelis ad Nicolaum epistola , &c. c Annal. tom . 10 ad an . 865. nu . 75. Non extant ipsae blasphemae Michaelis ad Imperatorem literae — traditae sunt igni . d Chap. 10 nu . 4. e Florimond . cap. citat . nu . 5. f Sigebertus eū in coenobio S. Vincentij . Metensi ad instruendos pueros esset positus , scripsit Historiarū lib. Trithē . de script . Ecclesiasticis , verbo , Sigebertas . g Lib. 3. de Rō . Pont. cap. 20. h Vergerius an notat in Catalogum haeret . Romae conflatum . An. 1559. fol. 17. i Ibid. k Bellonius obseruat . lib. 2. cap 83. l Psal . 118. 22. m Gret● er . lib. ● . de Cruc● , cap. 85. pag. 240. n Idem lib. 1. cap. 20. pag. 50. a De donatione Constantini . b Apologie 〈◊〉 defence of Ecclesiasticall subordination in England , cap. 12 fol. 200. c Lib. 5. de fide , cap. 7. d De Trinitat . lib. 10. e Lib. 2. contra Pelag. f Lib. 1. de verbo Dei. cap. 16. g Bibl. sanctas lib. 1. h Iansen Concord . Euang. cap 76. i Euseb . lib. 3. hist . cap. 39. teste Bella● . lib. 1. de verbo Dei , cap. 16. k Ibid. l Acts and Monuments allegations against the 6. artic . pag. 1304. edit . 1570. * Lib 5. l An. 1606. m Index lib. prohib . per Clementem 8. De correctione lib. n Ioh. Neuisanus Sylua N●ptialis . p. 319. o In Apparat. sacro verbo , Ioh Neuisanus . p Onuph . annot . in Platin. in vit . Ioh 8. per vt aiunt , & tradunt earn relert . ●● q Barthol Cassa●aeus 2. part . catalogi gloriae mundi , non a consideratio . Turrecremat . sum . de Eccles . part . 2. lib. 4. cap. 20. Caelius Rhodiginus Antiqua● Lectionū . lib. 8. cap. 1. u Leo Papa ●bijt . Kal. Aug. Huic succesit loanna mulier an . a 〈◊〉 5. dieb . 4. Haec in codice impresso Heroldi opera qui mala fide locum hunc cū alijs multis corrupit . Nam in scripto codice ex quo prodijt prima editio ita legitur : Iohannes qui , vt asseritur , fuit mulier x Annal. to 10. ad an . 853. ou . 60. y Rerum memorabilium paraleipomen . Hist . Abbat . Vrspergens . annex a. p. 394. z Harding loco supra citato . a Golden Legend in the life of S. Patricke . b Dial lib. 3. cap. 28. * Chronol . lib. 3. ad an . Christ . 595. c De sacris Eccl. benefic . ac Minist . lib. 2. cap. 4. d Alciat . parerga iuris lib. 7. cap. 24. & de consecrat . dist . 1. c. vasa e Pius 2. dixisse fertur sacerdotibus magnaratione sublatas esse nuptias , maiori restituendas videri . Platina in vita Pij . 2. Fulgos . de dict . &c. lib. 7. cap. 2. f Pisanus de Continentia . cap. 11. g Psal . 91. 13. h Duaren . de sac . Eccl. Minist . lib. 1. cap. 2. i See To●tu●a Torti . p. 262. & the B. of Lincolns booke against a namelesse Catholick . pag. 282. k Onup . Annot. in Plat. in vit . Greg. 10. l Onuph . ibid. m Disput . super mater . Conc. generalis , quae habetur in Fasci culo rerum expetend . impress . Colon. 1535. fol. 201. b. Et in Bibl. sanct patrū Bygnaei . to . 8. edit . Paris . 1576. o Aene as Syluius hist . Bohem●ca , cap. 13. p In Enchirid. controu . cap. 19. de precibus latinèrecitandis . q De diuin . scrip quauis lingua non legend . cap. 33. r Lib. 2 de verbo Dei , cap. 16. ſ Sir Edw. Sands in his relation of the religion vsed in the West pag. 91. t Historia Iesuitici ordinis , cap. 6. u Cope dialog . 3. cap. 11. pag. 355. x Nu. 27. p 397. y N. D. Pag. 399. & 400. z Annot. in Plat in vit . Ioh. 8. a Pag. 396. b N. D pag. 400 c Onuph . loco citato . d Anastas . de vit . Pont. in Leo. 2 & Benedict . 2. e Chron. ad an . Christ . 94. & 103 f Onuph . Hard. and Bellar. locis supra citatis . g Nu. 30. pag. 400. h See before . * Guitmundus Normanus cognomento , non natione . i Apparat. sac . verbo Guitmundus . a Florim . cap. 10. nu . 1. * Hoc est ab an . 847. ad ann . 858. b Florim . loco citato . c Trithem . de script . Eccl verbo . Rabanus . * Trithem . ibid. d Annal. to . 10. ad an . 856 nu . 26 Posseuin . Apparat . sac . verbo . Rabanus . e Florim . loco citato . f De script . Eccles . verbo Rabanus . g Sixt. Senensis Bibli . sanctae , l. 4. verbo . Rabanus . & in Posseuin . Apparat. sac . verbo . Rabanus . h Florim . p. 84. i Annal. to . 10. ad an . 853. nu . 71 k De script . Eccl verbo . Haimo . l Bibl. Sāct . lib. 4. verbo . Haimo . Apparat. ●acer . to . 2. verb Haim . m N. D. part 2. cap. 5. pag. 392. n Florim . p. 84. o In vita Ioh. 8. nu . 110. Anastasi● à Iob. ( v● . 8 ) praefectus est Bibliothecae S. Rom. Ecclesiae . Baron . annal . tom . 9. ad an . 787. nu . 9. p Lib. 3. de Rom Pont. cap. 24. q In vita Leonis 4. pag. 293. r Ioh Albinus Typographus Mogunt . praefat . ad an icum Lectorē , quae praefigitur Anastasio . Qui sciret tantum Grammaticam isto seculo rudi , doctissimus habebatur . Baron . annal . tom . 9. ad an . 802. nu . 12. ſ Albinus loco citato . t Anastas de vit . Pontif in vita An●ceti , &c. u Platina de vitis Pontif in vita Aniceti , & Onuph in Chron. Rom. Pontif. x In vita Marcel . y Annal to . 2. ad an . 302 nu 95. 96 &c. z In vita Liberij a Ba●on to . 3. ad an . 355. nu 57. b In ●ita Liberij . c P●gh . hierarch Eccles . lib. 4. c. 8. d Annot in Platin . in vit . Fel. c. 2. e In vita Anast . 2 f Lib. 4. de Rom Pont. cap. 10 & Append. ad . lib. de summo Pont cap. 14. g In vita Marcellini : cessauit Episco● at . ann . 7m . 6 dieb . 25. h Annal to . 2. ad an 304. nu . 25. & 26. i In vita Euseb . k Annal. to . 3. ad an . 326. nu . 41. l In vita Hono. 1 m Onuph . annotat . in Plat. in vit . Honorij 1. &c. n Lib 4 de Ro. Pont. cap. 11. p Baron annal . to . 2 ad an . 132. nu . 1. o In vita Alex. 1. q In vita Pij 1. r Baron . to . 2. ad an . 167. nu . 1. ſ In vita Soteris t Baron to . 2. ad ann . 179. nu . 51. u In vita Anteri . x Baron . to . 2. ad ann . 238. nu . 1. y In vita Dionysij . z To. 2. ad ann . 272. nu 21. a In vita Stephani . 5. b Annal to . 9. ad ann . 817. nu . 1. c Florim . cap. 14. nu . 1. d De vitis Pont. in vita Bened. 3. e In Indice littera a. verbo Anastasius . p Annot , in Plat. in vit . Ioh 8. q Lib. 3. de Ro. Pont. cap. 24. r De vtilitate Le gend . hist . ſ Cap. 14. pag. 123. t De vrbis Episc in Benedict . 3. u Annal. to . 10. ad ann . 847. nu . 6. x Annal to . 10. ad an . 882. nu . 7. y Multa praetermissa ab Anasta sio inueniuntur , & inter alia depraedatio Basilicae S. Petri quae in vaticanis collibus extra vrbis maenia posisita erat . Baron . Annal to . 9. ad ann . 739. nu . 6. Plurima de eodem rege ( viz. Luitprando ) P. Diaconus praetermisisle conuincitur . Sed haud rerum ignoratione , sed ne tanto vito no tam inureret , &c. Baron . Annal . to . 9 ad ann . 744. nu . 22. z Bell lib. 3. de Ro. Pont. cap. 24. N. D. nu 24. p. 393. Et alij . a In Bibliotheca verbo . Ado. b Apparatus sacer . verbo . Ado. c In hist . vet . patrum . edit . Paris . 1583. ad initiū . Chron. Adonis * In Bibliot . vatican . impress Romae . an . 1591 Tit. Author q. in opere citantur nomina . d Florim . p 84. * Freculphus floruit . an . 830. & quod excurrit . Posleuin . Ap parat . lac . verbo . Freculphus . e In Metho hist . Freculph historicus ab orbe . condito ad ann . Christi . 560. Chron , digerit . f Chrō . l. 2. p. 110 g O●uph . annot . in Plat. in vita Ioh. 8. Harding . loco in initiocitat . Florim . p 84 h Annonius vsque ad ann . 820 historiam texurt , saith Vasquez de Adorat . lib. 2 cap. 9. disput . 7. * Gencbr . Chrō . lib. 4. ad an . 44 i N. D. nu . 24. p. 302. k Episco●us qui dam nostras eos authores citauit interdū , quos nulla vnquā habuit aetas . Canus . Loc. Com. lib. 11. c. 6. fol. 327. l Pag. 296. and 297. m Florim . p. 84. n In Chron. Mo nasterij Hirsaugiensis ad ann . 851. o Epistola 103. quae habetur apud Baro. anna . to . 10. ad an . 856 nu . 8. & Florim . cap. 14. nu . 4. p Annal. to . 10. ad ann . 853. nu . 69. q Baron . to . 10. ad an . 900. nu . 8. r Baron . to . 10. ad ann . 901. nu . 1. ſ Ibid. t Baron . to . 10. ad an . 853. nu . 69 * Cetè si quod tam nefandū see lus accidislet , di cere minimè omisisser , sed im placabili luctu vir zelo plenus planxisset . u To. 10. ad ann 846. nu . 10. 11. 12. 14. 15. 17. x Ad ann . 855. nu . 14. y Ad ann . 856. nu . 10. z Ad ann . 856. nu . 20. a N. D. p. 392. Florim . p. 84. b Anno. 1602. c Ioh. Albinus praefar . ad Lectorem . d Chron. lib. 4. ad ann . 955. e N. D. and. Florim . locis citat●● f Lib. 2. chron . g Florim . p. 85. Onuph . in Plat. in vita Ioh. 8. h Lib. 7. cap. 35. re●um in orbe gestarū . Impress . Argentorati , An. 1515. a Qui paul● post illius aetatē floruerunt , nihil de ea scripserūt . &c Florim . cap. 10. pag. 84. b Florim . loco citato . c For so I reade in Trithem . de script . Ecclesiast . verbo , Ioh. Diac. * Posseuin . in Ap parat . sac . verbo . Ioh. Diaconus . d Florim , loco citato . e Trithem . lib. citato , verbo Milo. Sigebert . ad an 879. f Florim . loco citato . g Trithem . lib. citato . Posleuin . appa . sac . verbo . Paschasius . h Florim . loco citato . i Cum o●●es scribendi principes , quorum alij haeretici , alij schismatici , alij anathemate separati — quaecunque odium suggessit , in Pōtifices ex omni vitae praeteritae causa collecta probra turpiter euomuerint — nihil autem de Ioannae Pontificatu dixerint : Existimandum est quaecunque de ea postea diuulgata sunt , posterorum haereticorum fraude fuisse excogitata . Florim . cap. 10. nu . 5. & 6. k Florim . nu . 4. l Florim . ibid. a Iohannes Sam martinus in fabulam Ioannae pseudo pontif . Romanae è corrupto historiarù albo erasam à Flor. &c and Florim cap. 6. pag 58. b Silentio satisfecerunt Catholici doctores , &c Florim . cap. 6. nu . 6. c Synodus Parisiensis anno Christi 824. Frācofurti impress . apud haeredes Wecheli 1596. pag. 145. d In epist . Pauli ad Rom. e Append ad lib de cultu Imag. f Annal. tom 9. ad an . 825. nu 3. g Loco citato , in initio h Nu. 5. &c. i Bellar. lib. 2. de Purg cap. 8. Baron . Annal. to . 8. ad an . 604. p. 182 &c. k Alphons . Sal meron in 1. Cor 15. disput 27. l Cuius rei extat insigne Romae monumentum lapidi antiquissimo inscriptum in aede sacra ipsius Gregorij — quod ego proprijs oculis hausi . &c Salmeron loco citato , p. 239 & 240. m Florim . cap. 10. pag. 87. p Vir in diuini● Scripturis singulariter doctus — sapientia & honestate morum conspicuus . Trithem , de script . Eccles verbo . Hincmarus . q To. 9. ad ann . 760. nu . 3. * S. Hincmarus . r Ioh. Gabri . Bisciola Epit. Baron . ad an . 760. ſ Florim . p. 87. t De Inuestitura Episcoporum . printed at Basil anno 1566. u Florim . cap. 10. nu . 5. & 6. x Lib. 4. de Ro. Pont. cap. 13. y Florim . p. 88. z Malo magis huic Benoni Cas dinali quàm Platinae , &c. crederc . Epist ad Lector , fol. 39. in Fascie . rersi expetend . & fugiend . a Florim . p. 88. & 89. Rupertus Episc . Angl. — quaecunque potuit excogitare conuicia est ementitus . b Magnus habetur Philosophus Latinis & Graecis ad plenum eruditus , lector in Theologiae scho lis , praedicator in populo , &c. Math. Paris . hist Angl. in Hen. 3. pag. 1162. c Quis est iste senex delius , surdus , & absurdus , saith Innocent . 4. Math Paris . ibid. d Apud Math. Paris . pag. 1161. c Vt vera fateamur , vera sunt quae dicit , said the Cardinals . Math. Paris . p. 1162. f Impuro ore alter Anglus no mine Mat. Paris . omne iniuriarū genus conflauit . Florim . cap. 10. pag. 89. g Hist . Angl. in Guil. conquest . anno . 1072. p. 10. h Ibid an . 1074. i In Hen. 1. ad ann 1125. p. 93. k In Hen. 3. pag. 617. l In Hen. 3. pag. 712. ad an . 1240 m In Hen. 3. ad ann . 1251. pag. 1089. n In Hen. 3. ad an . 1249. p. 1017 & pag. 539. & 757. o In Hen. 3 p. 1100. ad an . 1251 p Florim . ca. 10. pag. 89. q Roger Houe . Annal. pars posterior in Rich. 1. pag. 388. r Posleum . Apparat sacer . verb Cyrillus Carmelita . ſ Append. ad lib de Summo Pont. cap. 11. t Florum . loco citato . u Append. 2d l , de Summ. Pont cap. 14. x Polon . Dante antiquior , Bell , ibid. y N. D. p. 393. z B. C. In his Dolefull knell of Thomas Bell lib. 2. pag. 296. a Plat. de vit . Pon. in vita Mar Flores . Hist . ad ann . 341. b Plat. in vit● Marcell . 1. Onu . in Chron. ad an . 304. c Lib a Chronogr d Chronol lib. 3 e Pontac . & G●neb . locis citatis f Aurea Legēd . Exaltation of the holy Crosse . g Breutar . Rom. in officio Exaltat . S. Crucis . h Lib. 1. de Cruce , cap. 57. pag. 170. k N. D. pag 393 l Lib. 2. de Rom Pont. cap. 8. vide lib. 2. de I●dulg . cap. 20. m Lib. 1. de extrema vnctione cap. 6. n To. 1. de sanc . Hist . praefat . in Martyriū S. Dionysij per Metaphrasten . o Prolegom . 6. in Euang. p Onuph . and Harding locis supra citatis . q Omnis copiosa bibliotheca ( in particular he meanes the Vatican ) refert similitudinem sagenae missae in mare , ex omni genere pi cium congregantis , bonos & malos continens libros probatos & improbatos , vtiles & inutiles simul amplexans , saith Baron . annal . 10. 8. ad an . 604. nu . 50. r Ro. Biblioth habet libros tum suppositos , tum improbatae lectionis . Cope . Dial. 4. cap. 19. p. 567. * Loco supra citato . n Bristowes printed with his Demands o Onuph annot . in Plat. in vitam Alex. 3. p Non dignus qui Pontifex numeretur , sed intrusus & occupator potiùs nominandus . Annalium tom . 10. ad an . 964. q Lib. 4. de Ro. Pont. cap. 9. r In vita Felicis 2 ſ Chronol . lib. 3. ad an . 368. t Epist . 165. u Lib. 2. x Golden Legéd in the life of Vrsula . Polon . ad . an . 238. Supplē . chron . ad ann . 235. Ranulf . Cestrens . in Poly chron . lib. 4c . 20. Petrus de Nata . talibus in catal . Sanct. lib. 9. c. 87 y Ioh de Parifijs de potestate reg●a & papali . pag. 217. cap vlt. In Sext. lib. 1. T it 7 de renunciatione . in glos●a . z Plat. in vita Damasi 2. Polonus in Chron. circa ann . 1040. a Censent nonnulli hunc inter Pontifices nequaquā numerandsi esse , saith Plat. loco citato . b Felix 4. teste Maslono de vrbis Episcop . lib. 2. in vita lohan . 1 p. 85. c Florim cap. 22 pag. 190. d See Le Frane discours , printed anno . 1602. e In his Reioynder to M. luel about the Masse pag. 177. c Bell. lib , 3. de Ro. Pon. c. 24. * So doth Massonus de vrbis Episcopis . d Anastas . in vita Euaristi . e Baron Annal. to . 2 , ad an . 121. nu . 1. f Baron . Annal. to 2. ad ann . 272 nu . 21. g Anastas . in vita Dionysij . l Florim c. 1. p. 6. * B. C. in his Dolefull knell of Tho. Bell. p. 295. and 296. m Bell. lib. 2. de Imag. c. 10. n Bell. loco citato , & Gretser . de Cruce . l. 2. c. 1. o Lib. 1. Collectaneorum . q Bell. loco citato . & Baro. Annal . to . 1. ad ann . Christ . 31. nu . 61 r Lib. 4. cap. 26. ſ See Baro. Annal . 10. 8. ad ann . 594. nu . 30. t Bellar. lib. 1. de Clericis . cap. 9. Pamelius annot . in Cypr. epistolā 52. nu . 29. Carerius de potestate . Ro. Pont. l. 1. c. 18. Pet. de Natal . in Catal. sanct . l. 8. c. 53. u Annot. in Ioh. 19. 23. in marg . x Ludolphus de vita Ie●u , part . 2. cap. 63. p. 221. Col. ● . y Turrian lib 1. contra Magdeburg cap. 25. z Gretser . lib. 2. de Cruce . cap 1. To. 1. a Bellar. lib 2. de Ro. Pont c 26. Baro Annal. ●● . 10. ad ann . 963. nu . 35. * Concilium Romanum & Synuestanum . b Loco suprà citato . a N. D. nu . 25. pag. 393. b B. C. student in diuinitie , in his Dolefull knell of Thom. Bell , printed 1607. lib. 2. pag 297. commends this for a very excellent argument . c N. D. nu . 25. d Scripsit historiarum libros ad an . 1142. saith , Posseuin . apparat . sac . verbo . Guiliel . Malms . but by the book it self ( fol. 108. ) it is plaine he continued it to the yeare 1143. e Vide histor . l. 8. in fine . f Fol. 464. ● . g N. D. p. 394. h N. D. p. 395. i N. D. p. 394. k Roger Houedon . Annal. par● prior . pag. 132. edit . Lond. and Florentius in Chron. ad ann . 853. l N. D. p. 395. m Houedo● & Florentius locis citatis . n In regio Curto semper inseparabiliter nutriebatur , saith Florent . lib citato . p. 308. & Ioh. Asser Episcop . Shyreburnensis in hist . Alfredi . pag. 7. which history was printed at London 1574. with Tho. Walsingham . o Vsque ad 12 aetatis annum , proh dolor , illiteratus permansit . Asser & Florent . loc . cit . p N. D. p. 395. q Math. Westm . Flores hist . ad an . 871. fol. 245. r Math. Westm . lib. citato . ad an . 868. fol. 236. ſ N. D. p. 396. t N. D. p. 396. in marg . u At Frankford anno 1601. x N. D. pag. 396. in margine . a Florim . cap. 30 nu . 4. b Florim . ibid. c Fascic . Temp. ad an . 844. Polyd Virg. de inuent . rerum , lib. 4. cap 10. Ioh. Stella in vit . Pont. in Sergio 2. d Florim . ibid. e Annal tom . 10 ad an . 844. nu . 1. * He would haue said Sergius the 4 , as appeareth Annal . to . 11. ad an . 1009. f Baronij laudan di sinem prorsus inuenio nullum Florim . cap. 22. nu 6. Non ignoro Plat tinam , qui saepius in alijs etiā rebus lapsus est , hanc consuetudinem Ioh. 12. acceptā referre , &c. Florim . cap. 30. nu . 5. g De vit . Pont. in vita Sergij 2. h Annot. in Plat. in vitam Sergij 2 & Ioh. 13. i Onuphrius antiquitatis perscrutator diligentissimus . Flo trim . cap. 21. nu . 6 k To 10. annal . ad an 955. nu . 4. l Quisnā huius Pseudopontificis pater , & c ? Flor. ca. 8. nu . 5. m Aliorum quidem pontificū parentes , vt Lini Cleti , & omniū caeterorum in Annalibus leguntur . Florim . c. 7. nu 5. n Anastas . de vit . Pont. in vita Higini . Polon . in Chr. ad an . 154. o Anastas . in vita Dionysij . Polon . in Chron. ad an . 257. p Ioh. Stella de vitis Pont. in Ioh 19. ad ann . 999. q Onuph . annot . in Plat. in vita vrbani . 4. r Paulus Langius in Chron. citizē . ad ann . 1316. ſ Idem ad ann . 1303. t Papyrius Massonus de vrbis Episcopis , l. 6. in Benedicto 12. u Patre ortus qui semper nauticā exercuit . Papyr . Mass . lib. cit . in Sixto . 4. x Onuph . Addit ad Plat. in vita Adriani . 6. y Cicarellus in vita Sixti 5. z Papyr . Masson . de vrb . Episc . lib. 6. in Alex. 5. a N. D. nu 35. p. 40 2. and 403. b Lib. 2. p. 303. c De Galeni sententia vniuersae vitae sex sunt omnino aetates , Leonard . Fuschius Institut . Medicin lib. 1. cap. 5. e Nem. vnioni● Tract . 6. c. 39. f De vrbis Episcop . lib. 6. in Greg. 11. g Masson . de vrbis Episc . lib. cit : in Bonifac. 9. Plat. in Bonif. 9 h Masson . lib. 3. de vrb . Episc . in Innocent . 3. i Glaber Radulphus . hist . lib. 5. c. vlt. & Masson . l. 4. in Bened. 9. k Paulus Langius in Chron. Citizense ad an . 1389. l Annal. to . 10. ad an . 955. nu . 3. m De vrbis Episcop . lib. 5. in Celestin . 3. n in Catal. sanct lib. 10. cap. 64. o Annotat Biblicis in Ruth . 1. ed● . vlt. p Annotat. in Plat. in vita Higini . q Bristow in his table of Popes . r See Fasciculus Temp. ad ann . 904. ſ Teste Bennone Cardinale in vita Hildebrand t Sum. de Eccle. lib 4 part . 1. c. 9. u Plat. in vita Anastasij . 2. x De vit . Pont. ad ann . 498. n Genebrard . Chronol . lib. 4. ad an . 1046. Aeneas Syluius in Decad. Blond . Epit. lib. 3. o Platina in vita Clem. 2. p In vita Damas . 2. Supplement . Chro. lib. 12. ad ann . 1042. Ioh. Stella de vit . Pon. ●d an . 1040 in Damaso 2. q In vit . Bened. 6 r Annal. to . 10. ad an . 974. nu . 1. ſ In vit . Victor . 3. t Chron. lib. 4. ad ann . 1087. u In Sum. Conc. x In Chron. ad ann . 1095. y Pla. in vit . Pij 3 z Kran . Metrop . lib. 5. cap. 1. a Platina in vita Ioh 13. Blond . decad . 2. lib. 3. b Luitprand . Ti cinens . l. 6. c. 11. Sigeber . in Chr. ad an 963. Trith in Chron. Monast Hirsaug . c Turrecremat . Sum. de Eccles . l. 2. c. 103. & l. 4. c. 9. part . 1. and so doth Walthramus Episc . Naumburgens . Tract de inuestitura Episcopotū . d Metrop . lib. 5 c. 1. e Obijt die 22. non sine veneni suspicione , quòd nimiùm rectus quibusdam videretur . Gen●b . Chron. lib. 4 ad ann . 1555. f In his declaration made at Vendosme . Ian. 28. anno 1601. g Relatiō of the Western church by Sir Ed. Sands . h Pontifices tanquam monstra quaedā è medio breui Deus sustulit . Platina in vita Christophori . Paucorum labes sinceris maculā , & vniuers . Eccles in famiā ingerit . Et in mea opinione ideo frequentius moriuntur Pontifices ne totam corrumpant Ecclesiam . Ioh. Salisb. de Nugis Curialium . lib. 6. c. 24. i N. D. nu . 35. pag. 403. k N. D. nu 28. p. 396. Bell. lib. 3 de Ro. Pon. c. 24. l Iohan. Pierias Valerianus pro sacerdotum barbis . fol. 21. ad Cardinal . Medicen . printed at London in aedib . Tho. Bertholet . anno 1533. m Lib. 6. de reb . Turcicis . n N. D. nu . 35. p. 403. o Onuph . annot . in Plat. in vita Ioh. 8. Florim . cap. 23. pag 197. p Rauis . Textor in officina . Tit. Mulieres habitū virilem mentitae . q Ibid. & Pet. de Natal . in Catal. sanc . lib. 3. c. 113. r Vitas Patrum . lib. 1. Pet. de Natal . lib. 2. cap. 3. Pet. de Natal . in Catal. sanct . lib. 9. cap. 36. & 37. ſ N. D. pag. 402. t Iob 12. 22. u Onuph . loco . citato . N. D. pag. 402. x Onuph ibid. y Platina in vita Dionysij . z Idem in vita Valentini . a Idem in vita Bened. 5. b Geneb . Chron. lib. 4. ad an . 963. Annal to . 10 ad an 999. nu . 2. c Chronol . lib 4. ad an . 398. d Bell. l. 3 de Ro Pont cap. 24. e Leuinus Lem●ius de occultis 〈◊〉 miraculis lib. 4. cap. 22 , 〈◊〉 23. f 〈…〉 g 〈◊〉 . cap. 23. 〈◊〉 . h Ier. 22. 18. 19. i Annal. to . 10. ad an . 985. è veteri Pontif. Vaticano codice . k 〈◊〉 cap. 2 , 〈◊〉 l 〈…〉 m 〈…〉 * Papyr . Masso : vir praestans ingenio & pietate . n To. 10. Annal. ad an . 853. nu . 62 o De vrb . Episc . lib. 3. in Bened. ● * Vltimo supplicio affecissent . p Loco citato . q Loco citato . r Polyd. Virg. de inuent . rerum . lib. 6. cap. 10. ſ Bellonius lib. 2 obseruat . cap. 6. t Felix Platerus Archiater Basil . Pract c. 1. p. 46. edit . Basil . 1608. u Pag. 205. x Gen. 35. 17. 18 y 1. Sam. 4. 20. 21. z N. D. of 3. Cōuers . part . 2. c. 5. nu . 36. Florim . p 202. Bell. l. 3. de Ro. Pont. c. 24. a Florim . loco citato . b In vita Bonif. 9 c De vitis Pontif in vita Greg. 4. d In vita Leon e Idem in Leone . 4. f Platina in vita Leon. 3. & Anastas . de vit . Pont. in Leone 3. * Ecclesia Dei genitricis ad praesepe . a Baron . Annal. to . 10. ad ann . 853. nu . 67. b Marke 14. 59. c Testes quidē inter se rectè conueniebant , cū eadem vterque verba , & eodē sensu recitaret . — sed quamuis affirmarent , Christum dixisse : Ego dissoluam &c. non iudicabant Pontifices posse proptereà Christum ad mortem cōdemnari . Maldonat . in Math. 26. 61. d Baron . Annal. to 10. ad ann . 8●3 . nu . 67. * Gen. 11. e Marianus eam Ioannam nouo adinuento & innouato vocabulo appellauit . Quorsum verò nomen , quod antea solis masculis imponebatur , sola litera mutata , ad mulierem detorsit ? Florim . cap. 7. nu . 1. f Luk. 8. 3. and 24. 10. * Golden Legēd and Engl. Festiual in the life of S. Nicolas , and Pet , de Natal . in Catal. sanct lib. 1. cap. 33. g Audi quanta inter cos confusio in confictae foeminae nomine &c. Baron . Annal. to 10. ad ann 853. nu . 67. and Florim .c. 4. ●u . 5. & .c. 7. nu . 4 h Alij eam vocant Ioh. 7 , alij 8 , alij vero 9. ●aith Baronius loco citato . Some do feigne him to be Iohn the 8 some 9. saith N. D. pag. 401. i Hoc vnum eorum animos torquet , vtrum Ioh. 7 , aut Ioh. 8 nomen sibi vsurparit . Florim . cap. 7. nu 5. k Annot , in 〈◊〉 in vit . Ioh. 9. l Loco citato . m Platina moritur Romae , anno 1481. Trith . de script . Ecclesiast . verbo Bartholomaeus . n Such as that of Colen , anno 1574. o De vit . Pont. in vita Martini 2 p In vita eiusdē Ioh. q Alij ponun● hoc anno 853. alij anno sequēte , alij 857. octa . alij , quidam 904 praeter eos qui ponunt eū post Martinum 1. anno 653. alij post Ioh. 5. anno 686. Baron loco citato , and Florim . cap. 7. nu . 4. r Florim . loco citato . ſ Lib. 3. de Rom Pont. cap. 24. t In chron . ad an . 855. collat . cum anno 847. u In chron . ad an . 847. collat . cum anno 854. x Sigebert names Leo the first , ad an . 441. Leo the 2. ad an . 684. Leo the 3. ad an . 796 and the next is that Leo who sate ad an . 847. y Alij eū sedisse tradunt anno 1. & men●e 1. & d●eb . 4. Alij an . 2. tondemque men sibus & d●eb 4. Alij 2 annis cum dimidio : Duob . tantū annis alij : alij vero 4 tantū men●es . Baron . loco citato . Florim . cap 7. nu . 4. z This is in Florim . and not in Baronius . a Lib. 3. de Ro. Pont cap. 24. b Platina de vit . Pont. in vita Lucij 1. Onuphr . in Chron. Rom. Pont. ad ann . 253. c Anastasius in vita Lucij . d Idem ibid. e Plat & Onuph loco citato . f Onuph . loco citato . g Math. Westm Flores hist . ad an . 254. h Marian. Scot. & Polon . in chrō ad an . 255. i Abbas Vrspergen● . ad an . 259. k Compilatio Chronologica ad an 275. l Polon . & Math Westm . locis citatis . m Marian. Scotus loc . citat . n Albo Floriacens . de vit . Pont. in Lucio . o Onuphr . loco citato . p Euseb . lib 7. hist . cap. 3. & Abbas Vspergensis loco citato , & Hermannus Contractus circa ann . 260. q Math. Westm . Flores hist . ad an . 905. r Polon . in chrō . ad an 907. ſ Baron . annal . to . 10. ad an . 907 nu . 2. t Herman . Contract . circa ann . 907. u Luitprandus , teste Baron . ad an 908 nu . 2. x Baron ibid. y Polon . ad ann . 907. z Baron . tom . 10 Annal. ad an . 910. nu . 1. a Baron . annal . to . 10 ad an . 897 nu . 2. b Luitprand . l. 1. cap. 8. & Abbas Vrspergensis in Chron. ad an . 897. c Platina in vita Steph. 6. d Wernerus Roleuink in Fa●cic . temp . ad an . 904 e Luitprand . loco citato . f Abbas Vrspergens . loco citato . g Luitprand . & alij . h Papyrius Massonus lib. 3. de vrbis Episcop . in Bonifacio 6. i Platina in vita Steph. 6. k Annotat. in Plat. in vita Formosi . l Intentatum hactenus s●elus . * Prae sui immaniate omnib●s incredibile . Annal. 10. 10. ad an . 897. nu . 3. * Erroris conuincuntar qui isla . de Formoso negant , & conficta putant . m Lib. 2. de Ro. Pont. cap. 5. n Octob. 21. o Pet. de Natal in Catal. sanct . lib. 9. c. 87. p Galfridus Monumentens hist . Brit. lib. 5. cap. 15 & 16. q Petrus de Natal loc . cit . r Herman . Flien in vita S. Vrsulae Octob. 21. ſ Ponticus Virunius hist . Brit. l. 5. t Baron . Annot. in Martyrol . Ro Octob. 21. b. u Incertus author apud Suriū to . 5. de vitis sanct . Octob 21 x Pet. de Natal . loco cit . y Baron . loc . cit . z Elizabetha Abbatissa Schonaugien . in princip . Reuelationum . a Frater T. in Reuelat. scriptis an . 1185. vt refert Flien . loc . cit . b Flien , loc cit . d Ponticus Virunius & Gali ridus locis cit . e Pet. de Natal . loc cit . * Vide supr . p. 67 f Hangerus Abbas Lobiensis in Catalog . Episco . Tongerensium in Metropol . g Flien . Annot. in vitam Vrsulae . h Martyro Ro. and Baron . Annot . in Martyr . Octob 21. i Flien loco citato . k Author Chrō . Colon. fol. 68. & Harig . Abbas loco cit . &c. l Baron . in Martyr . Oct. 21. m Sigebert in Chron. ad ann . 853. n Lindan . apud Baro●um Annot . in Martyr . Oct. 21. o Flien . loco cit . fabulam a●lem esse didici . a Onuph Annot in Platin. in vit . Ioh 8. & Hard. Answer to B. luels Apology . b Lib. 8. d In Hen 3 ad ann . 1252. pag. 1112. * Iohan. de Legria vir in Triuio & quadriuio experientissimus . c Lib. 6. e Consmograph . de Europa . cap. 11. f Constat eo tēpore neque Athenis , neque vsquam alibi in Grecia ●uisle vlla Gymnasia literarum . l : 3. de Ro. Pont. c. 24. g Loco citato . h In Epist . vlt ad fratrem suum Synesius scribit Athenis nihil ●uisse nisi nomē Academiae . i Petrus Abailardus nihil habens de Monacho praeter nomen & habitum Bern. Epist . 193. k Baron . Annal. to 3. ad an . 354. nu . 25. & 26. l In Monodia in Basilij magni vitam . m Annal. 10. 6. ad an 510 nu . 2. n Loco citato . o In vit . Michael & Theod. Imperat . * Philosophia neglecta iacebat ac propè omnino extincta erat . vt nescintilla quidem eius appareret . * Cuique disciplinae scholas constituit , & do ctores designauit , singulis publica stipendia decreuit . p In philosophicis rationibus incomparabilem , &c. q Loco supra citato . * Literis & poetis Leo ( vt ipse fereb at ) ●●●itiatus fuit Byzantij . Rhetoricam , Philosophiam , Arithmeticam , & reliquas sciētias in Antro Insula didicit . r Bellar. lib. 1. de Conc. cap. 5. ſ Conc. Constātinop . 6. Act. 17. t Bellar. lib. 1. de Conc. cap. 5. u Bellar. loco . citato . * 350. teste Bel. ibid. x Nu. 32. pag. 46 y Ibid. z Onuph . and Harding , locis supra citatis . a Math. Westm . Flores hist . ad au . 727. b Idē ad an . 794. c Idē ad an . 883. d Omnes sanctae Rom. Ecclesiae scholae coniunctae eundem ( Stephan . 6. ) ad Lateranēse perduxerunt palatium — gravi moerore affecus est , quia quod erogares clero & scholis non haberet . Anastas . in vita Steph. 6. e Florim . cap. 7. p. 62. Bernart . lib. 2. p. 117. * Omnē hanc de Ioanna confictā fabulā hoc vno dicto damnarūt . Florim , ibid. f Pag. 70. g Pag. 71. h Florim . loco suprà citato . i Cent. 10. ca. 10. as Florim . and Bernart . say . k Ioh. 7. vt Sabellicus vult , aut 8. vt Platina , vocatus est . Cent. 9 cap. 10. l Baron . annal . to . 10. ad an . 853 an . 64. m Baron . ibid. n Baron . ibid. o See Marianus chronicle , & the case wil appeare to be plaine . p Florim . cap. 14. nu . 6. q Annal. to 9 ad an 806. nu . 19. r Flor. c 27. nu . 2 〈◊〉 5. Luio●●● Imp●ratorem adulterij 〈◊〉 Iudit●a quadam perpetrati reum — cum da ●●●nobij clausius addixit . Flo●●m . ibid. t Annal. to 9. ad an . 833. & 834. a Flor. c. 25. nu . 3 b Florim ibid. c Ab Anast●●● nil memori : dignum , g●● est . Plat. in v. Anastasij 3. d Leo 7 〈◊〉 e●gnum memoria gessit . Plat. 〈◊〉 vita Leoni . 7. e Florim . loco supra cit . 10. f Florim . ibid. g Qui seiret tan tum Crammaticam isto seculo rudi . doctissimus habebatur . Baron . Annal. to 9. ad ann . 80 2. nu . ●● . h Horim . cap. eit . nu . 6. i Florim ibid. k Annal. to . 9. ad ann . nu . 2. m Florim . loco citato . n Florim . cap. 3. nu . 1. & 2. o Quiscit illum , intelligere potest , non nisi grande aliquod bonū à Nerone damnatum . Ter tull . Apologet. cap. 5. Euseb . hist . Eccl lib. 2. cap. 24. p De vanitate scientiarum . cap. 62. desectis Monasticis . q Lib. 1. epistol . Epist 38 te mag nopere commendamus , &c. saith Leo the 10 r Lib de vanitate scientiarum , is mentioned in the Emperours priuiledge . ſ Si eafabula vera suisset , vt Romae hoc tempore sederit foemina , cui in electione ipse Ni colaus tune Cardinalis suffragiū oportuerit contulisle qua fronte Photium ted●●guere potuisser quod saepissimè facit ) co nomine quòd cum esset laicus ordinari se Episcopum passus esset , &c. Baron . annal to . 10. ad an . 853. nu 70. t Anastas . Biblioth . in vita Nicolai 1. u Ibid . x Ibid. y Baron . loco supra citato . z Imperatorem ipsum acerrima reprehensio●● perstingit ; quod id agere praesumpsislet Baron . ibid. h 2. Sam. 1511. i O locus epist . opportunus & auro contra non carus , & quo facile protelem omnia aduersariorum tela , &c. Bernart . lib. citato . p. 109. k Rario ineluctabilis , saith Genebr chron . lib. 4. Maximi ponderis arg . saith Florim . cap. 25. p. 209. l Leo 9. epist . ad Michaelē Episc Constantinop . cap. 23. m N D. lib. citat nu . 29. pag. 398. n Ier. 5. 8. o Ezech. 16. 25. p De praesulibur Symoniacis : in Bibliotheca sanctorum Patrum , printed at Paris 1576. pag. 655. q Ibid. t Nemoris vnionis , tract . 6. cap 34. ſ De corrupto Ecclesiae statu . * Henricus Huntingdon . hist . l. 7. an . Christi 1125. Roger Houeden annal . pars prior in Hen. 1. ad an . 1126. Math. Paris in Hen. 1. ad an . 1125. pag. 93. Math. Westmō . Flores hist . ad an . 1125. * Huntingdon . Houeden , Math. Paris locis ●tat . t Bristow , Motiue 31. * Ionas 4. 11. u De Praesalibus Symoniacis , in Biblioth sanct . pat edit . Paris . 1576. x De corrupto Ecclesiae statu . y De sac . Eccles . Minist & Benefic . lib. 1. c. 11. z Comment . de dict . & fact . Alfonsi regis lib. 2. Apotheg . 17. * Grauamen 7. nationis Germa nicae , quod habetur in Fasciculo rerum Expetendarum , im press . Colon. 1535. fol. 167. b. a Allens Answ . to the booke of English Iustice . cap. 3. pag. 44. b Staplet . in the 4. booke of the Counterblast fol. 481 & S. R. in his answer to Bels downefall of Popery . cap. 8. Art 7 nu . 4. pag. 361. c Philopater ad edictum Reginae Angliae . nu . 192. sect . 3. pag. 180 alias Stapl. for he is the author , teste Posseuino in Apparat . sac . 10. 1. verbo . Angli . d De Corrupto Ecclesiae statu . e In vita Sozimi . f Panopliae lib. 4 cap. 77. p. 405. g Iam reipsa Caluinistis in Anglia mulier est summus Pōtifex . De notis Ecclesiae . lib 4. cap. 11. h In the defence of the censure . pag. 13. i Quodlibet of Religion and state . pag. 236. k N. D. Loco supra citato . l 1. King 18. 17. 18. m In Epistola 1. ad Imperatorē . n Nicol. 1. epist . ad Michaelem . o Euseb hist Eccl . lib. 5. cap. 28. p Tertull lib. contra Praxcū . q In Pontificali in vita Marcell r Lib. 4. de Rom. Pont cap. 8. ſ Annal. To. 2. ad an . 302. nu . 101 , & 102. t Lib. citato in vita Liberij . u In epist ad solitariam vitam agentes . x Descript . Ecclesiasticis , verb. Fortunatianus . y Hist . lib 4. c. 15. z ●ieron . de script . Ecclesiast . verbo Acacius . a Sozomen . lib. 4. cap. 10. b Act. 16. 17. 18. c Act. 7. in definit . Synodi . d See Baronius annal . tom . 9. ad an . 806. nu . 1. & 2. e Baron . annal . to 9. ad an . 787. nu 58 , & 59. f Loco proximè citato . Certè quide qui eam primus edidit Theod. Balsamo in suspicionem adducitur inposturae . g Posseuin . in apparat sac . verbo Taratius . * Nor Papyrius Masson . dev . bis Episcop . lib. 3. in Adriano . fol. 131. b. h Rhem. annot . in Act. Apost . 17. 34. i Annal. to . 9. ad an . 787. na . 49. k Onuph . annot . in Platina , in vita Ioh 8. Harding in his Answer to Iu●ls Apologie . b Fascicul Tem porū ad a● 614. c Some say it was Se●gus the reason of which d●●●rsine ●ee in D Reyno●ds Co● cr . chap 7. diu●● 1. pag. 282. edit . 1534. in marg . d Pag. ) 1. e Platina in vita B●●nicacij 7. f Bonifacius 7. annumerandus interfamosos latrones & potentissimos grassatores atque patriae proditores , Syllas & Catilinas horumque si●●les , quos omnes superauit sacrilegus iste tur pissima nece duorum Pontificū . Annal. to . 10 ad an . 985. nu . 1. g Florim cap. 24 h Iodocus Coc●●us in catechis . Cathol . lb. 7. Art. 15. i Platina de vitis Pont in Syluest . k In Chron. ad an 988. * Non per ostiū intrasle creditur . A quibu●dam negromantiae arguitur . l 〈◊〉 vit . & cest . Hildebrandi . m In chron . ad an . 1007. n De vit . Pont. in Syluest , 2. ad an . 995. o Supplem . chrō ad an 997. p In Polychron . lib. 6. cap. 14. q Flores hist . an 998. r Ad an . 1004. ſ In S●ma Conc. t Comment . de gest . Conc. Basil . lib. 1. u Bell lib. 4. de Ro. Pont cap. 12 Onuph . annot . in Plat in vit . Syluest . 2. x Lib. 2. de gestis regum Angl. cap. 10 ●ol . 6. y Loco citato . z De morte e●us siu● dia●oli percussione famam alibi commodius conuellam Onuph . loco uprà citatò . * Bell. lib. 4. de Ro. Pont c. 12. Baron . Annal. to 1● ad an . 999. n● 7. * Facinorosus homo , quique vtfar , & latto ingressus est in ouile omum , laqneo vitam adeo ●fam : exitu , vind●●e Deo , clausit . to 10. Annal. ad ann . 900. nu 5. * Baronius ibid. * Ad ann . 904. na . 4. * Tete●●timum monstrum . a In ●it . Greg. 6. b Rodulphus Glaber quitunc v●●ebat . lust . lib. 5 c. vit . Papynus 〈◊〉 de vrb . spise in B●nedicto . 9. c Platina in Benedict . ●igonius 〈…〉 8. ad 〈◊〉 48. d Caput 〈…〉 ●●●na , vt reliquum corpus sicut vrsus . Fascic . Temp. ad ann . 1034. Plat. in vita Be●ed 9. Polonus in Chron. ad ann . 1042. e Petrus Crinitus lib. 8. de honesta disciplina . cap. 23. vt legimu● in Fasciculo rerum expetendarum , &c. fol. 44. f Caelestinus vir sanctissimus , & tam ante Pontificatum quam etiam post miraculis plurimis illustris . Bell. Appendix ad lib. de Summ. Pont. cap. 14. & 24. g Calestinus 5. propherauit in hunc modum vt fertur : Ascendisti vt vulpes , regnabis vt Leo morieris vtcanis Et ita sanè contigit . Tho. Walsingam in Edu . 1 & Polichron . lib. 7. cap. 40. h Hilde brand . Ecclesiasticum subuertit ordinē Christiani imperij perturbauit regnū , &c. Cōuentus Episcoporum 50. apud Brixian , teste Abbate Vt pergensi in Chron. ad ann 1080. i Benno Cardinalis lib. supra citato . k Ibid. l Ibid. m Ibid. n Forentinus Vigotniensis in Chron. pag. 641. Math Paris in Guil. Conquest . an . 1086. o Onuph . Append. in Plat. in vita Ioh 24. p Conc. Constant . Sess . 11. Art. penult . r Luitprandus hist . per Europam . gestarum . lib. 6. c. 7 , 8. & 10. * Pag. 97. q Ibid. Art. 6. &c. ſ Part. 2. Tit. 16. cap. 1. sect . 7. a Omnia insignia mendacia ab aliqua veri tate originem habent . Onuph . Annot in Plat. in vit Ioannae . ●uc●s quaedam inest ve●● species . Florim . cap 29. nu . 1. b Loco citato nu . 5. c Loco supra citato . d Lib. 6. c. 6. & 7 e Annal. lib. 4 f Pag. 236. g Genebrard . Chron. lib. 4. ad ann . 855. h Diuturno 10. annorum studio Geneb . praefat . Chronograph . ad Po●tac●m . i Fabu●a Ioann● cap 31 p. 253. nu 6. k Posseuin . apparat . sacer . verbo Gilb●rtus Genebrardus . l Annal. tom . 10. ad an . 925 nu . 11 si ipse Pontisex est dicendus . m Ad an . 912. nu . 12. n Ad an . 928. nu . 2. o Annal. tom . 10 ad an . 90 1. nu 1. p Idem ad ann . 905 nu . 1. & 2. q Frodoard . last . Rhemeus . lib. 4. cap. 19. r Ista noua , turpia , detestanda , solo auditu horrenda atque pudenda . Annal. to . 10. ad an . 925. nu . 9. ſ Ibid. nu . 11. t Idem ad an . 928. nu . 2. u Cap. 29. nu . 3. x Luitprand . lib. 2. cap. 13. agnoscente . Baron . annal . tom . 10. ad an . 908. nu . 5. y Baron . ad an . 933. nu 11. z Ad an . 928. a Cap. 29. p. 235 & 236 cap. 30. p. 240 , & 241. b Lib. 3. cap. 12. c Leo Ostiens . lib. 1. cap. 57. in fine . Baron annal . 10. 10. ad an . 928. p. 702. d Cap. 30. p. 242 e Baron . annal . to . 10. ad an . 901 nu . 1. f Florim . cap. 30 nu . 1. g Baron . annal . to . 10. ad an . 855 nu . 51. h Annal to . 10. ad an 879. nu . 5. i Annal. to . 10. ad an . 853 nu . 58. k Cap. 5. nu . 29. pag. 399. l Certè si vel leuissimus rumusculus per calumniam de his spar sus esset , vtique is ab eo suisset antea diluédus , quàm vt fama perlatū facinus eiuldem generis obiecisset . Annal . to . 10. ad an . 853 nu . 66. m Florim . ca. 25. nu . 3. n Constantinop . nouam Romā iam inde à Constantini tempore Graeci vocabant . Papyr . Masson . lib. 2. de vrbis Episc . in Simplicio a Part 2. of three Conuersions , c. 5 pag. 389. b Bellar lib. 3. de Ecclesia , cap. 2. c Rhem. annot . in 1. Cor. 14. v. 34 d Loco sup . cit . e Cicarellus addit . ad Platinam & Onuph . f Anaslasius de vitis Pont. in Cletus . g Idem in Clemente . h or 35. Idem in Alex. 1. i Idem in Pelagio 1. 1. k Idem in Pelag z l Idem in Ioh 3. m Idem in Sab ●niano . n Idem in Honorio 1. o Pont●●us Ch●●n g●●l . 2. p Ana ●●●● lib citat in Marcellino , & Polonus in codice Manu scripto , & Pontacus Chronog . lib 2. q Teste Platina invit . Nicol. 1. r De repub . ib. 6. nu 71. ſ N. D. part . 2. c. 5 nu . 1● . t Au●●●n . Epist . ●65 . ad literas 〈◊〉 Do●●●st . u N. D. loeo suprà citato . x The oath of the Supremacy . 1. Eliz. 1● a Bristow . Motiue . 22. b Nihil praetereà ex ex eater miseri nouatotes , lucri capiunt insi vt dic . possit duobus illis annis & mensibus sedem Pontificiam legitimo vacuam ●u●sse pastore — quod & aliàs ac cidit , vt maiori temporis spacio sedes Pontificia , dilata per discordias eli gentium electio ne vacarit : nec tam● succession● desijsle , quis vnquam ausus est dicere , quod nec dici potuit . Sed tantùm esse dilatam nullo verò modo sub latam Baron . Annal. to . 10 ad an . 853. nu . 63. c Quot proh ●pudor proh dolor●m eandem sedem visu horrenda intrusa sunt monstra , &c. To 10. ad an . 900. nu . 3. d Non Apostolici sed Apostatici . to . 10. ad an . co 8. nu . 4. e Qui non sunt nisi ad consignanda tantùm tempora in Catalogo . Rom. Pontificum scripti . to . 10. an . 912. nu . 8. f Homo nefarius , iam antea bis gradu depositus &c. nō numerandus inter Pontifices , vtpotè qui damnatus fuit in Ro. Synodo . to . 10. ad . an . 897. nu . 1. g To. 10. ad an . 897. nu . 1. * Apostolicae sedis inuasor , & fur & latro — indignus nomine Ro. Pontif ibid. an . 900. nu . 6. h To. 10. ad an . 908. nu . 1. Ibid. i Ad an . 910. nu . 1. k Scelestissimus vir ad an . 974. n 1. nefandis simus parricidâ , truculentus praedo , qui ne pilum habuisse dici potest Romani Pontificis , ad an . 985. nu . 1. m Ostensus fuit tanquam in scena mimus ponti ficem agens . to . 10. ad an . 955. nu . 4. n To. 10. ad an . 931. nu . 1. l To. 10. ad an . 931. nu . 38. o Inuasor & detentor iniustus Apostolicae sedis . ad an . 928. nu . 1. p Chronol lib. 4. seculo . 10. ad an . 904. a In Episcopis de iure diuino residet ista potestas creandi sacerdotes . Tolet. Summa casuū Conscient . lib. 1. cap. 1. b Anathema sit qui dixerit non solos sacerdotes esle Ministros absolutionis , Conc. Trid. ●ess . 14. Can. 10. c Semper in Ecclesia pro indubitato habitum est , ita necessanam esse ordinatio●● sacerdotalē ad Eucharistiā conficiendā vt sinè ea nullo modo confici possit . Bel. l. 4. de . Eucha . c. 16. d Pag. 82. e Sigebert . in chron . ad an . 963. Baron . annal . to . 10. ad an . 964. nu . 9. Ioh. de Turrecrem . Sum. de Eccles . lib. 2. cap. 103. f ff de officio Pra●toris .