Additional discourses of Mr. Chillingworth never before printed Chillingworth, William, 1602-1644. 1687 Approx. 223 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 52 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2003-09 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A32849 Wing C3883 ESTC R9935 12385185 ocm 12385185 60827 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. 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Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Catholic Church -- England -- Controversial literature. Catholic Church -- Controversial literature. 2003-05 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2003-06 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2003-07 Rina Kor Sampled and proofread 2003-07 Rina Kor Text and markup reviewed and edited 2003-08 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion ADDITIONAL DISCOURSES OF Mr. Chillingworth NEVER BEFORE PRINTED . Imprimatur . Ex Aedib . Lambeth . Iun. 14. 1686. GUIL . NEEDHAM R R. in Christo P. ac D. D. Wilhelmo Archiep. Cant. à Sacr. Domesticis . LONDON , Printed for Richard Chiswell at the Rose and Crown in S. Pauls Church-Yard , 1687. CONTENTS . I. A Conference betwixt Mr. Chillingworth and Mr. Lewgar , whether the Roman Church be the Catholick-Church , and all out of her Communion Hereticks or Schismaticks . p. 1. II. A Discourse against the Infallibility of the Roman Church , with an Answer to all those Texts of Scripture that are alledged to prove it . p. 26. III. A Conference concerning the Infallibility of the Roman Church ; proving that the present Church of Rome either errs in her worshiping the Blessed Virgin ; or that the Ancient Church did err in condemning the Collyridians as Hereticks . p. 41 IV. An Argument drawn from Communicating of Infants , as without which they could not be saved against the Churches Infallibility . p. 68. V. An Argument against Infallibility , drawn from the Doctrin of the Millenaries . p. 80. VI. A Letter relating to the same subject . p. 89. VII . An Argument against the Roman Churches Infallibility , taken from the Contradictions in their Doctrin of Transubstantiation . p. 91. VIII . An account of what moved the Author to turn a Papist , with his Confutation of the Arguments that perswaded him thereto . p. 94. IX . A Discourse concerning Tradition . p. 103. The Reader is desired to take notice of a great mistake of the Printer and to Correct it , That he has made this the ru●ning Title over most of the Additional Pieces , viz. A Conference betwixt Mr. Chillingworth and Mr. Lewgar ; which should only have been set over the first ; there are also some literal mistakes , as pag. 65. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 twice for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and such like , not to be imputed to the Author . A CONFERENCE BETWIXT Mr. CHILLINGWORTH AND Mr. LEWGAR . Thesis . THE Church of Rome ( taken diffusively for all Christians communicating with the Bishop of Rome ) was the Judge of Controversies at that time , when the Church of England made an alteration in her Tenents . Argu. She was the Judge of Controversies at that time , which had an Authority of deciding them . But the Church of Rome at that time had the Authority of deciding them . Ergo. Answ. A limited Authority to decide Controversies according to the Rule of Scripture and Universal Tradition , and to oblige her own Members ( so long as she evidently contradicted not that Rule ) to obedience I grant she had : but an unlimited , an infallible Authority , or such as could not but proceed according to that Rule , and such as should bind all the Churches in the World to Obedience ( as the Greek Church ) I say she had not . Quest. When your Church hath decided a Controversie , I desire to know whether any particular Church or person hath Authority to reexamine her decision , whether she hath observed her Rule or no ; and free h●mself from the obedience of it , by his or her particular judgment ? Answ. If you understand by your Church , the Church Catholick , probably I should answer no : but if you understand by your Church , that only which is in Subordination to the See of Rome , of if you understand a Council of this Church , I answer , yea . Arg. That was the Catholick Church , which did abide in the Root of Apostolick Unity : But the Church of Rome at that time was the only Church that did abide in the Root of Apostolick Unity . Ergo. Quest. What mean you by Apostolick Unity ? Answ. I mean the Unity of that Fellowship wherein the Apostles Lived and Died. Quest. Wherein was this Unity ? Answ. Herein it consisted , that they all professed one Faith , obeyed one Supream Tribunal , and communicated together in the same Prayers and Sacraments . Sclut . Then the Church of Rome continued not in this Apostolick Unity ; for it continued not in the same Faith , wherein the Apostles Lived and Died : for though it retained so much ( in my judgment ) as was essential to the being of a Church , yet it degenerated from the Church of the Apostles times , in many things which were very profitable ; as in Latin Service , and Comm●nion in one kind . Argu. Some Church did continue in the same Faith wherein the Apostles lived and died : But t●ere was no Church at that time which did continue in the Apostles Faith besides the Roman Church . Ergo. Answ. That some Church did continue in the Apostles Faith in all things necessary , I grant it : that any did continue in the Integrity of it , and in a perfect : conformity with it in all things expedient and profitable , I deny it . Quest. Is it not necessary to a Churches continuing in the Apostles Faith , that she continue in a perfect conformi●y with it in all things expedient and prof●table ? Answ. A perfect conformity in all things is necessary to a perfect continuance in the Apostles Faith : but to an imperfect continuance , an imperfect conformity is sufficient ; and such I grant the Roman Church had . Quest. Is not a perfect continuance in the Apostles Faith necessary to a Churches continuance in Apostolick Unity ? Asw. It is necessary to a perfect continuance in Apostolick Unity . Argu. There was some one company of Christians at the time of Luthers rising , which was the Catholick Church ; But there was no other company at that time besides the Roman : Ergo , the Roman at that time was the Catholick Church . Answ. There was not one company of Christians , whch in opposition to and Exclusion of all other companies of Christians was the Catholick Church . Argu. If the Catholick Church be some one company of Christians in opposition to and exclusion of all other companies , then if there was some one company , she was one in opposition to and exclusion of all other companies : But the Catholick Church is one company of Christians in opposition to and exclusion of , &c. Ergo , There was then some one company which was the Catholick Church in opposition to and exclusion of all other companies . The Minor proved by the Testimonies of the Fathers , both Greek and Latin , testifying that they understood the Church to be one in the sense alledged . 1. If this Unity which cannot be separated at all or divided , is also among Hereticks , what contend we farther ? Why call we them Hereticks , S. Cypr. Epist. 75. 2. But if there be but one Flock , how can he be accounted of the Flock , which is not within the number of it ? Id : Ibid. 3. When Parmenian commends one Church , he condemns all the rest ; for besides one , which is the true Catholick , other Churches are esteemed to be among Hereticks , but are not . S. Optat. lib. 1. 4. The Church therefore is but one , this cannot be among all Hereticks and Schismaticks . Ibid. 5. You say you offer for the Church , which is one ; this very thing is part of a lie to call it on ; which you have divided into two : Id : Ibid. 6. The Church is one , which cannot be amongst us and amongst you ; it remains then , that it be in one only place . Id : Ibid. 7. Although there be many Heresies of Christians , and that all would be called Catholicks , yet there is always one Church , &c. S. August . de util . credend . c. 7. 8. The question between us is , where the Church is , whether with us or with them , for she is but one . Id. de unitat . c. 2. 9. The proofs of the Catholick prevailed , whereby they evicted the Body of Christ to be with them and by conseq●ence not to be with the Donatists ; for it is manifest that she is one alone . Id. Collat. Carthag . lib. ● 10. In illud cantic . 6. 7. There are 60 Queens and 80 Concubines and Damsels without number , but my Dove is one , &c. He said not , my Queens are 60 , and my Concubines , &c. but he said my Dove is but one ; because all the Sects of Philosphers and Heresies of Christians are none of his ; his is but one , to wit , the Cath●lick Church , &c. S. Ep●phan . in sine Panar . 11. A man may not call the Conventicles of Hereticks ( I mean Marcionites , Manichees , and the rest ) Churhces ; therefore the Tradition appoints you to say , I believe one Holy Catholick Church , &c. S. Cyrill . Catech. 18. And these Testimonies I think are sufficient to shew the judgment of the Ancient Church , that this Title of the Church one , is directly and properly exclusive to all companies besides one ; to wit , that where there are diverse professions of Faith , or diverse communions , there is but one of these , which can be the Catholick Church . Upon this ground I desire some company of Chr●stians to be named , professing a diverse Faith , and holding a diverse Communion from the Roman , which was the Catholick Church at the time of Luthers rising : and if no other in this sense can be named , than was she the Catholick Church at that time , and therefore her judgment to be rested in , and her Communion to be embraced upon peril of Schism and Heresie . Mr. Chillingworths Answer . Upon the same ground , if you pleased , you might desire a Protestant to name some Company of Christians , professing a diverse Faith , and holding a diverse Communion from the Greek Church , which was the Catholick Church at the time of Luthers rising ; and seeing he could name no other in this sense ▪ concludes that the Greek Church was the Catholick Church at that time . Upon the very same ground you might have concluded for the Church of the Abyssines , or Armenians , or any other society of Christians extant before Luthers time . And seeing this is so , thus I argue against your ground . 1. That ground which concludes indifferently for both parts of a contradiction , must needs be false and deceitful , and conclude for neither part : But this ground concludes indi●ferently both parts of a contradiction ; viz. That the Greek Church is the Catholick Church , and not the Roman , as well as , That the Roman is the Catholick Church , and not the Greek : Therefore the ground is false and deceitful , seem it never so plausible . 2. I answer Secondly , that you should have taken notice of my Answer , which I then gave you ; which was , that your major , as you then framed your Argument , but as now , your minor is not always true , if by one you understand one in external Communion ; seeing nothing hindred in my Judgment , but that one Church excommunicated by another upon an insufficient cause , might yet remain a true member of the Catholick Church ; and that Church , which upon the overvaluing this cause doth excommunicate the other , though in fault , may yet remain a member of the Catholick Church : which is evident from the difference about Easter-day between the Church of Rome and the Churches of Asia ; for which vain matter Victor Bishop of Rome excommunicated the Churches of Asia . And yet I believe you will not say , that either the Church excommunicating , or the Church excommunicated , ceased to be a true member of the Church Catholick . The case is the same between the Greek and the Roman Church ; for though the difference between them be greater , yet it is not so great , as to be a sufficient ground of excommunication : and therefore the excommunication was causeless , and consequently Brutum fulmen , and not ratified or confirmed by God in Heaven ; and therefore the Church of Greece at Luthers rising might be , and was a true member of the Catholick Church . As concerning the places of Fathers , which you alledge ; I demand , 1. If I can produce you an equal , or greater number of Fathers , or more ancient than these , not contradicted by any that lived with them or before them , for some doctrin condemned by the Roman Church , whether you will subscribe it ? If not , with what face or conscience can you make use of , and build your whole Faith upon the Authority of Fathers in some things , and reject the same authority in others ? 2. Secondly , because you urge S. Cyprians Authority , I desire you to tell me , whether this Argument in his time would have concluded a necessity of resting in the Judgement of the Roman Church , or no ? If not , how should it come to pass , that it should serve now , and not then , fit this time and not that ? as if it were like an Almanack , that would not serve for all Meridians ? If it would , why was it not urged by others upon S. Cyprian , or represented by S. Cyprian to himself for his direction , when he differed from the Roman Church , and all other that herein conformed unto her , touching the point of Re-baptizing Hereticks ; which the Roman Church held unlawful and damnable , S. Cyprian not only lawful , but necessary ; so well did he rest in the Judgment of that Church : Quid verba audiam , cùm facta videam , says he in the Comedy ? And Cardinal Perron tells you in his Epistle to Casaubon , that nothing is more unreasonable , than to draw consequences from the words of Fathers , against their lively and actual practice . The same may be said in refutation of the places out of S. Austin ; who was so far from concluding , from them or any other , a necessity of resting in the Judgment of the Roman Church , that he himself , as your Authors testifie , lived and died in opposition of it ; even in that main fundamental point , upon which Mr. Lewgar hath built the necessity of his departure from the Church of England , and embracing the Communion of the Roman Church , that is , The Supream Authority of that Church over other Churches , and the power of receiving Appeals from them . Mr. Lewgar , I know , cannot be ignorant of these things ; and therefore I wonder , with what conscience he can produce their words against us , whose Actions are for us . If it be said , that S. Cyprian and S. Austin were Schismaticks for doing so ; it seems then Schismaticks may not only be members of the Church , against Mr. Lewgars main conclusion , but Canoniz'd Saints of it ; or else S. Austin and S. Cyprian should be rased out of the Roman Kalendar . If it be said , that the point of Re-baptization was not defined in S. Cyprians time ; I say that in the Judgment of the Bishop and Church of Rome and their adherents , it was : For they urged it as an Original and Apostolick Tradition , and consequently at least of as great force as any Church definition . They excommunicated Firmilianus and condemned S. Cyprian , as a false Christ , and a false Apostle , for holding the contrary ; and urged him Tyrannico terrore to conform his judgment to theirs , as he himself clearly intimates . If it be said , they differed only from the particular Church of Rome , and not from the Roman Church , taking it for the universal society of Christians in Communion with that Church : I Answer , 1. They know no such sense of the word , I am sure never used it in any such ; which whether it had been possible , if the Church of Rome had been in their judgment to other Churches in spiritual matters , as the City was to other Cities and Countries in temporals , I leave it to indifferent men to judge . 2. Secondly , that they differed not only from the particular Roman Church , but also from all other Churches , that agreed with it in those doctrins . 3. Thirdly , I desire you would answer me directly , whether the Roman Church , taking it for that particular Church , be of necessity to be held Infallible in Faith by every Roman Catholick , or not . To this Question I instantly desire a direct answer without tergiversation , that we may at length get out of the cloud , and you may say , Coram , quem quaeritis , ad●um . If you say , they are not bound to believe so ; then it is no Article of Faith , nor no certain truth upon which men may safely rest without fluctuation or fear of error : And if so ; I demand 1. Why are all your Clergy bound to swear , and consequently your Laity ( if they have Communion of Faith with them ) by your own grounds , bound to believe , That the Roman Church is the Mistris of all other Churches ? where it is evident from the relation and opposition of the Roman to other Churches , that the Roman Church is there taken for that particular Church . 2. Secondly , why then do you so often urge that mistaken saying of Iraeneus , Ad ●anc Ecclesiam necesse est omnem c●nvenire Ecclesiam ? falsely translating it , as Cardinal Perr●n in French , and my ● . F. in English — All Churches must agree with this Church ; for convenire a●n signifies not to agree with , but to come unto ; whereas it ●s evident for the aforesaid reason , that the Roman is here taken for that particular Church . 3. Thirdly , if that particular Church be not certainly infallible , but subject to error in points of f●ith ; I would know , if any division of your Church should happen , in which the Church of Rome either alone , or with some others should take one way ; the Churches of Spain and France , and many other Churches another , what direction should an ignorant Catholick have then from the pretended Guide of Faith ? How shall he know of which of these Companies is the Church ? seeing all other Churches distinguished from the Roman may err , and seeing the Roman Church is now 〈◊〉 s●bject to error , and consequently not certain to guard those men , or those Churches that adhere unto it from erring . 4. Fourthly , if that particular Church be not infallible in Faith , let us then suppose that de facto it does err in faith ; shall we not then have an Heretical head upon a Catholick body ? A head of the Church , which were no member of the Church ? which sure were a very strange and heterogeneous Monster ! If to avoid these inconveniences you will say , that Roman Catholicks must of necessity hold that particular Church infallible in faith ; I suppose it will evidently follow , that S. Austin and S. Cyprian ( notwithstanding those sentences you pretend out of them ) were no Roman Catholicks ; seeing they lived and died in the contrary belief and profession . Let me see these absurdities fairly and clearly avoided , and I will dispute no more , but follow you whithersoever you shall lead me . 3. Thirdly , I answer , that the places alledged are utterly impertinent to the conclusion you should have proved ; which was , That it was impossible , that two Societies of Christians divided upon what cause soever in external Communion , may be in truth and in Gods account , both of them parts of the Catholick Church : whereas your testimonies , if we grant them all , say no more but this ; That the Societies of Hereticks , which are such as overthrow any doctrin necessary to salvation ; and of Schismaticks , which are such as separate from the Churches Communion without any pretence of error in the Church or unlawfulness in the conditions of her Communion ; I say , they prove only this , that such Societies as these , are no parts of the Church : which I willingly grant of all such , as are properly and formally Hereticks , and Schismaticks ; from which number I think ( with S. Austin ) they are to be exempted , Qui quaerunt causa sollicitudine veritatem , corrigi parati , cum invenerint . Whereas I put the case of such two Societies , which not differing indeed in any thing necessary to salvation , do yet e●oncously believe that the errors wherewith they charge one another , are damnable , and so by this opinion of mutual error , are kept on both sides from being Hereticks . Because I desire to bring you and others to the truth , or to be brought to it by you , I thought good for your direction in your intended Reply , to acquaint you with these things : 1. That I conceive the — in your discourse is this . That whensoever any two Societies of Christians differ in external Communion , one of them must be of necessity Heretical or Schismatical . I conceive there ● no such necessity ; and that the stories of Vidor and t●e Bishops of Asia , S. Cypr●on and Pope Steph●n make it evident ; and therefore I desire you to produce some con●incing argument to the contrary ; and that you may the better do it , I thought good to inform you what I mean b●an Heretick , and what by a Schismatick . An Herdick therefore I conceive him , tha holds an Error against Faith with ob●tinacy . Obstinate I conceive 〈◊〉 , who will not change his Opinion , when his reasons for it are so answered , that he cannot reply ; and when the reasons against it are so convin●ing , that he cannot answer them . By the Faith I understand all those Doc●●●ne , and no more , which Christ taught his Apostles , and the Apostles the Church ; yet I exclude not from this number the certain and evident deductions of them . A Schismatick I account him , ( and Facurdus Hermian●ns● hath taught me to do so ) who , witho●t any supposing of error in the conditions of a Churches Communion , divides himself either from the obedience of that Church to which he owes obedience ; or from the Communion of that Church to which he owes Communion . 2. Another thing , which I thought fit to acquaint you with , is this : That you go upon another very false and deceitful supposition ; viz. that if we will not be Protestants , presently we must be Pap●sts ; if we forsake the Church of England , we must go presently to the Church of Rome : Whereas if your Arguments did conc●ude ( as they do not ) that before L●thers time , there was some Church of one Denomination , which was the Catholick Church ; I should much rather think it were the Church of Gree●e , ●han the Church of Rome ; and I believe others also would think so as well as I , but for that reason which one gives , why more men hold the Pope above a Council , than a Council above a Pope , that is , because Councils give no maintenance or preferment , and the Popes do . Think not yet , I pray , that I say this , as if I conceived this to be your reason for preferring the Roman Church before the Greek ; ( for I protest I do not ) but rather , that conc●iving verily you were to leave the Church of England , to avoid trouble you took the next Boat , and went to the Church of Rome , because that bespake you first . You impute to me ( as I hear ) that the way I take is destructive only , and that I build nothing ; which first , is not a fault ; for Christian Religion is not now to be built ; but only I desire to have the rubbish and impertinent Lumber taken off , which you have laid upon it , which hides the glorious simplicity of it from them which otherwise would embrace it . Remember , I pray , Averroes his saying ; Quandoquidem Christiant adorant quod comedunt , sit anima mea cum Philosophis ; and consider the swarms of Atheists in Italy , and then tell me , whether your unreasonable and contradictious Doctrines , your forged Miracles and counterfeit Legends have not in all probability produced this effect . Secondly , if it be a fault , it is certainly your own ; for your discourse intended for the proof of a positive conclusion — That we must be Papists proves in deed and in truth nothing ; but even in shew and appearance no more but this Negative , that we must not be Protestant ; but what we must be , if we must not be Protestants , God knows ; you in this Discourse ( I am sure ) do not shew it . Mr. Lewgars Reply . § . 1. The minor of Mr. Chillingworths Argument against my g●o●nd is very we●k , being 〈◊〉 upon 〈◊〉 false ●●pposition , that a Protestant could name no other Church professing a diverse Faith , &c. from the Greek Ch●●ch , which wa● the Catholick Church : for if he could ●ot indeed name any other , the title would remain to the Greek Church : But he hath the Roman to name , and so my ground cannot conclude , either so , the 〈…〉 or any other , besides the Roman , but for that it does , except he can name some other . § . 2. His second answer is weak likewise ; for my Minor is always true ; at least they thought it to be so , whose Authorities I produce in confirmation of it , as will appear to any one that considers them well ; how their force lies in Thesi , not in Hypothesi ; not that the Church was not then divided into more Societies than one , but that ●he could never be . § . 3. As for his Instance to the contrary , wherein he believes I will not say the Churches excommunicated by Victor ceased to be a true member of the Catholick : If I say so , I say no more than the Ancient Fathers said before me . Iraeneus when he desired Victor 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , not to cut off so many and great Churches ; and Ruffin● , reprehendit cam , quod non benè fecisset abscindere ab unitate corporis , &c. § . 4. But howsoever the case of Excommunication may be , the division of external Communion which I intended , and the Fathers spake of in the alledged Au●horities , was that which was made by voluntary separation . § . 5. Whereby the Church ( before one Society ) is divided into several distinct Societies , both claiming to be the Church ; of which Societies so divided , but one can be the Catholick ; and this is proved by the Authorities alledged ; which Authorities must not be answered by disproving them , as he does ( for that is to change his Adversary , and confute the Fathers sayings , instead of mine ) but by shewing their true sense or judgment to be otherwise than I alledged it . § . 6. To his demand upon the places alledged I Answer , that I do not build my whole faith of this conclusion upon the Authority of those Fathers ; for I produce them , not for the Authority of the thing , but of the Exposition . The thing it self is an Article of the Creed , Unam Catholicam ; grounded in express Scripture , Columba mea unica : but because there is difference in understanding this Prophesie , I produce these Authorities , to shew the Judgment of the Ancient Church how they understood it ; and the proper answer to this is either to shew , that these words were not there , or at least , not this meaning ; and so to shew their meaning out of other places more pregnant . § . 7. And I promise , that whensoever an equal consent of Fathers can be shewed for any thing , as I can shew for this , I will believe it as firmly as I do this . § . 8. But this is not the Answerers part , to propound doubts and difficulties , but to satisfie the proof objected . § . 9. And if this course be any more taken , I will save my self all farther labour in a business so likely to be endless . § . 10. His second Answer to the places is wholly impertinent ; for therein would he disprove them from watching a necessity of resting in the judgment of the Roman Church ; whereas I produced them only to shew , that among several Societies of Christians , only one can be the Catholick ; and against this his second Answer saith nothing . § . 11. In his third Answer he makes some shew of reply to the Authorities themselves ; but he commits a double Error : One , that he imposes upon me a wrong conclusion to be proved , as will appear by comparing my conclusion in my Paper , with the conclusion he would appoint me . § . 12. Another , that he imposes upon the Authorities a wrong Interpretation , no way grounded in the words themselves , nor in the places whence they were taken , nor in any other places of the same Fathers , but meerly forged out of his own Brain . For first , the places do not only say , that the Societies of Hereticks and Schismaticks are no part of the Church ; but that the Church cannot be divided into more Societies than one ; and they account Societies divided , which are either of a diverse Faith or a diverse Communion . Neither do they define Hereticks or Schismaticks in that manner as he does . § . 13. For an Heretick in their Language is he , that opposes partinaciously the Common Faith of the Church : and a Schismatick , he that separates from the Catholick Communion ; never making any mention at all of the cause . § . 14. And if his definition of a Schismatick may stand , then certainly there was no Schismatick ever in the World , nor none are at this day : for none did , none does separate without some pretence of Error , or unlawfulness in the Conditions of the Churches Communion . § . 15. And so I expect both a fuller and directer answer to my Argument , without excursions , or diversions into any other matter , till the judgment of Antiquity be cleared in this point . Mr. Chillingworths Answer . Ad § , 1. The Minor of my Argument , you say , is very weak , being grounded upon a false Suppos●tion , That a Protestant could name no other Church professing a diverse Faith from the Greek , which was the Catholick Church : And your reason is , because he ●ight name the Roman . But in earnest , Mr. Lewgar , do you think that a Protestant remaining a Protestant , can esteem the Roman Church to be the Catholick Church ? or do you think to put tricks upon us , with taking your proposition one while in s●nsu composito , another while in sensu drviso ? For if your meaning was , that a Pr●testant not remaining , but ceasing to be a Protestant , might name the Roman for the Catholick ; so I say also to your discourse , that a Protestant ceasing to be a Protestant , might name a Greek to be the Catholick Church ; and if there were any necessity to find out one Church of one denomination , as the Greek , the Roman , the Abyssine , which one must be the Catholick ? I see no reason , but he might pitch upon the Greek Church , as well as the Roman ; I am sure your discourse proves nothing to the contrary . In short , thus I say , if a Grecian should go about to prove to a Protestant , that h●s Church is the Catholick , by say●ng ( as you do for the Roman ) some one was so before Luther , and you can name no other , therefore ours is so : Whatsoever may be answered to him , may be answered to you . Fo● as you say , a Protestant , ceasing to be a Prote●tant , may name to him the Roman ; so I say , a Protestant , ceasing to be a Protestant , may name to you the Grecian . If you say , a Protestant , remaining a Protestant , can name no other but the Roman , for the Catholick ; I may ( very ridiculously I confess , but yet as truly ) say , he can name no other but the Grecian . If you say , he cannot name the Greek Church neither , remaining a Protestant ; I say likewise , neither remaining a Protestant , can he name the Roman for the Catholick . So the Argument is equal in all respects on both sides ; and therefore either concludes for both parts ( which is impossible , for then contradictions should be both true ) or else ( which is certain ) it concludes for neither . And therefore I say , your ground you build on , That before Luther some Church of one denomination was the Catholick ( if it were true , as it is most false ) would not prove your intent . It would destroy perhaps our Church , but it would not build yours . It would prove peradventure , that we must not be Protestants , but it will be far from proving that we must be Papists . For after we have l●ft being Protestants ( I tell you again that ●ou may not mistake ) there is yet no necessity of being 〈◊〉 ; no mo●● than if I go out of England , there is a ne●essity of going to Rome . And thus much to shew the 〈◊〉 of your ground , if it were true . Now in the 〈◊〉 place , I say it is false , neither have you proved any thing 〈◊〉 contrary . 〈…〉 . You say , the Authorities you have produced , shew to any that consider them well , That the Church could never be divided into more Societies than one ; and you mean ( I hope ) one in external Communion , or else you daily in ambiguities ; and then I say , I have well considered the alledged authorities , and they appear to me to say no such thing ; but only , that the Societies of Hereticks and Schismaticks are no true members of the Church : Whereas I put the case of two such Societies , which were divided in external Communion by reason of some overvalued difference between them , and yet were neither of them Heretical or Schismatical . To this I know you could not answer , but only by saying , That this supposition was impossible ; viz. That of two Societies divided in external Communion , neither should be Heretical nor Schismatical ; and therefore I desired you to prove by one convincing Argument , that this is impossible . This you have not done , nor I believe can do ; and therefore all your places fall short of your intended conclusion ; and if you would put them into Syllogistical form , you should presently see you conclude from them Sophistically in that fallacy , which is called A dicto secundura quid , ad dictum Simpliciter . Thus , — No two diviced Societies , whereof one is Heretical or Schisinatical , can be both members of the Catholick Church : therefore simply no two divided Societies can be so : the Antecedent I grant , which is all that your places say , as you shall see anon ; but the consequence is Sophistical , and therefore that I deny : It is no better nor worse than if you should argue thus ; No true divided Societies , whereof one is Out-lawed and in Rebellion , are both members of the same Commonwealth ; therefore simply no two divided Societies . But against this you pretend , That the a ledged places say not only , that the Societies of Hereticks and Schismaticks are no parts of the Church ; but that the Church cannot be divided into more Societies than one : And they account Societies divided , which are either of a diverse Faith , or of a diverse Communion : This is that which I would have proved , but as yet I cannot see it done . There be Eleven Quotations in all ; seven of them speak expresly and formally of division made by Hereticks and Schismaticks , viz. 1. 3 , 4. 7. 9 , 10 , 11. Three other of them , ( viz. 5 , 6. 8. ) though they use not the word , yet Mr. Lewgar knows they speak of the Donatists , which were Schismaticks ; and that by the relative particles you and them are meant the Donatists . And lastly , the second , Mr. Lewgar know , says nothing but this , That an Hereticks cannot be accounted of that one Flock , which is the Church . But to make the most of them that can be : The first saith , the Unity of the Church cannot be separated at all , nor divided . This I grant , but then I say , every difference does not in the sight of God divide this Unity ; for then diversity of Opinions should do it ; and so the Iesuits and Dominicans should be no longer members of the same Church . Or if every difference will not do it , why must it of necessity be always done by difference in Communion , upon an insufficient ground , yet mistaken for sufficient ? ( for such only I speak of . ) Sure I am , this place says no such matter . The next place saies , the Flock is but one ; and all the rest , that the Church is but one , and that Hereticks and Schismaticks are not of it ; which certainly was not the thing to be proved , but that of this one Flock , of this one Church , two Societies divided without just cause in Communion , might not be true and lively members ; both in one Body Mystical in the sight of God , though divided in Unity in the sight of men : It is true indeed , whosoever is shut out from the Chruch on Earth , is likewise cut off from it before God in Heaven : but you know it must be Clave non errante ; when the cause of abscission is true and sufficient . Ad. § 3. If you say so , you say no more than the Fathers : but what evasions and tergiversations are these ? Why do you put us off with ifs and ands ? I beseech you tell me , or at least him that desires to reap some benefit by our Conference , directly and Categorically , — Do you say so , or do you say , it is not so ? Were the Excommunicated Churches of Asia still members of the Catholick Church ( I mean in Gods account ) or were they not ? but all damned for that horrible Heresie of celebrating the Feast of Easter upon a diverse day from the Western Churches ? If you mean honestly and fairly , answer directly to this Question , and then you shall see what will come of it . Assure your self , you have a Wolf by the Ears : If you say they were , you overthrow your own conclusions , and say that Churches divided in Communion may both be members of the Catholick . If they were not ; then shall we have Saints and Martyrs in Heaven , which were no members of the CathOlick Roman Church . As for Irenaeus his 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and Russinus his — Abscindere ab unite corporis ; they imply no more but this at the most ; That Victor ( quantum in ●e ●ut ) did cut them off from the External Communion of the Catholick Church ; supposing , that for their Obstinacy in their Tradition , they had cut themselves off from the internal Communion of it : but that this sentence of Victors was ratified in Heaven , and that they were indeed cut off from the mystical Body of Christ , so far was Irenaeus from thinking , that he , and in a manner all the other Bishops reprehended Victor for pronouncing this Sentence on them , upon a cause so insufficient : which how they could say , or possibly think of a Sentence ratified by God in Heaven , and not reprehend God himself , I desire you to inform me : and if they did not intend to reprehend the Sentence of God himself , together with Victors , then I believe it will follow unavoidably , that they did not conceive , nor believe Victors Sentence to be rati●ied by God ; and consequently did not believe , that these excommunicated Churches were not in Gods account true members of the Body of Christ. Ad. § 4. And here again , we have another subterfuge , by a Verbal distinction between Excommunication , and voluntary separation : As if the separation , which the Church of Rome made in Victors time from the Asian Churches , were not a voluntary separation ; or as if the Churches of Asia , did not voluntarily do that which was the cause of their separation ; or as if ( though they sepated not themselves indeed , conceiving the cause to be insufficient ) they did not yet remain voluntarily separated , rather than conform themselves to the Church of Rome : Or lastly , as if the Grecians of Old , or the Protestants of Late , might not pretend as justly as the Asi●n Churches , that their Separation too was not voluntarily , but of necessity ; for that the Church of Rome required of them under pain of Excommunication such conditions of her Communion , as were neither necessary nor lawful to be performed . Ad § . 5. And here again the matter is st●eightned by another limitation . Both sides ( say you ) must claim to be the Church : but what then , if one of them only claim ( though vainly ) to be the Church , and the other content it self with being a part of it ? These then it seems ( for any thing you have said to the contrary ) may be both members of the Catholick Church : And certainly this is the case now , between the Church of England and the Church of Rome : and for ought I know , was between the Church of Rome and the Church of Greece : For I believe , it will hardly be proved , that the Excommunication between them was mutual ; nor that the Church of Greece esteems it self the whole Church , and the Church of Rome no Church but it self a sound member of the Church , and that a corrupted one . Again , whereas you say , the Fathers speak of a voluntary separation ; certainly they speak of any Separation by Hereticks ; and such were ( in Victors judgment ) the Churches of Asia , for holding an opinion contrary to the Faith , as he esteemed : Or if he did not , why did he cut them from the Communion of the Church ? But the true difference is , The Fathers speak of those , which by your Church are esteemed Hereticks , and are so ; whereas the Asian Churches were by Victor esteemed Hereticks , but were not so . Ad § . 6. But their Authorities produced shew no more , than what I have shewed ; that the Church is but one in 4exclusion of Hereticks and Schismaticks ; and not that two particular Churches divided by mistake upon some overvalued difference , may not be both parts of the Catholick . Ad § . 7. But I desire you to tell me , whether you will do this , if the Doctrines produced and confirmed by such a consent of Fathers , happen to be in the judgment of the Church of Rome , either not Catholick , or absolutely Heretical . If you will undertake this , you shall hear farther form me : But if , when their places are produced , you will pretend ( as some of your side do ) that surely they are corrupted , having neither reason nor shew of reason for it ; unless this may pass for one ( as perhaps it may , where reasons are scarce ) that they are against your Doctrine ; or if you will say , they are to be interpreted according to the pleasure of your Church , whether their words will bear it or no ; then I shall but lose my Labour ; for this is not to try your Church by the Fathers , but the Fathers by your Church . The Doct●ines which I undertake to justifie , by a greater consent of Fathers than here you produce , for instance shall be these . 1. That Gods Election supposeth prescience of mans Faith and perseverance . 2. That God doth not predetermine men to all their Actions . 3. That the Pope hath no power in temporalties over Kings either directly or indirectly . 4. That the Bishop of Rome may Err in his publick determinations of matters of Faith. 5. That the B. Virgin was guilty of Original sin . 6. That the B. Virgin was guilty of actual sin . 7. That the Communion was to be administred to the Laity in both kinds . 8. That the reading of the Scripture was to be denied to no man. 9. That the Opinion of the Millenaries is true . 10. That the Eucharist is to be administred to Infants . 11. That the substance of Bread and Wine remains in the Eucharist of her Consecration . 12. That the Souls of the Saints departed enjoy not the Vision of God before the Last day . 13. That at the day of judgment , all the Saints shall pass through a purging fire . All these propositions are held by your Church either Heretical , or at least not Catholical ; and yet ●n this promise of yours you have undertaken to believe them as firmly , as you now do this , That two diviced Societies cannot be both members of the Catholick Church . Ad § . 8. It is not then the Answerers part to shew , that the proofs pretended are indeed no proofs ? and doth not he prove no proofs ( at least in your mouth ) who undertakes to shew , that an equal or greater number of the very same witnesses is rejected by your selves in many other things ? Either the consent of the Fathers , in any Age or Ages , is infallible , and then you are to reject it in nothing ; or it is not so , and then you are not to urge it in any thing : As if the Fathers Testimonies against us were Swords and Spears , and against you bulrushes . Ad § . 9. In effect as if you should say . If you answer not as I please , I will dispute no longer . But you remember the proverb , — will think of it . — Occasionem quaerit , qui cupit discedere . Ad § . 10. I pray tell me , Is not Therefore a note of an Illation , or a conclusion ? And is not your last therefore this , Therefore her judgment is to be rested in ? which though it be not your first conclusion , yet yours it is , and you may not declaim it : and it is so near of kin to the former ( in your judgment I am sure ) that they must stand or fall together : therefore he that speaks pertinently for the disproving of the one , cannot speak impertinently towards the disproving the other : and therefore you cannot so shift it off , but of necessity you must answer the Argument there urged , or confess it ingenuously to be unanswerable . Or if you will not answer any thing , where the contradiction of your first conclusion is not in terms inferred , then take it thus : If S. Cyprian and S. Austin did not think it necessary in matter of Faith to rest in the judgment of the Roman Church and the adherents of it ; Then either they thought not the Catholick Churches judgment necessary to be rested on , or they thought not that the Catholick Church . But the Antecedent is true , and undeniably proved so by their Actions , and the consequence Evident : Therefore the consequent must be true in one or other part : But you will not say the former is true ; it remains therefore , the latter must be , and that is — That S. Austin and S. Cyprian did not think the Church of Rome and the adherents of it to be the Catholick Church . Ad § . 11. But I tell you now , and have already told you , that in our discourse before Mr. Skin●●r and Dr. Sheldon I answered your Major , as then you framed your Argument , as now your Minor thus — If you understand by one company of Christians , one in External Communion , I deny your Major . For I say , that two several Societies of Christians , which do not externally communicate together , may be both parts of the same Catholick Church : and what difference there is between this , and the conclusion I told you , you should have proved , I do not well unstand . Ad § . 12. And is it possible you should say so , when every one of the places carry this sense in their forehead , and 7 of the 11 in terms express it — That they intended only to exclude Hereticks and Schismaticks from being parts of the Church : For if they did not , against whom did they intend them ? Pagans lay no claim to the Church , therefore not against them : Catholick . they did not intend to exclude : I know not who remains besides , but Hereticks and Schismaticks . Besides the frequent opposition in them between — One Church on the one side , and Hereticks and Schismaticks ; who sees not , that in these places they intended to exclude only these pretenders out of the Churches Unity ? Lastly , whereas you say , that the places say — That the Church cannot be divided ; and that they account those divided who are of a diverse Faith , or a diverse Communion : I tell you , that I have read them over and over , and unless my Eyes deceive , they say not one word of a diverse Communion . Ad § . 13. Whereas a Heretick in your Language , is he that opposeth pertinaciously the common Faith of the Church ; — In mine — He is such a one , as holds an Error against Faith with Obstinacy : Verily a monstrous difference between these definitions . To oppose and hold against ( I hope ) are all one : Faith and the common Faith of the Church , sure are not very different : pertinaciously and with Obstinacy , methinks might pass for Synonimous ; and seeing the parts agree so well , methinks the Total should not be at great hostility . And for the definition of a Schismatick , if you like not mine ( which yet I give you out of a Father ) I pray take your own ; and then shew me , ( If you mean to do any thing ) that wheresoever there are two Societies of Christians , differing in external Communion , one of them most be of necessity either Heretical , or Schismatical in your own sense of these words . To the contrary , I have said already , ( and say it now again , that you may not forget it ) the Roman and the Asian Churches in Victors time , the Roman and the African in S. Stephens time differed in external Communion ; and yet neither of them was Heretical ; For they did not oppose pertinaciously the common Faith of the Church : Neither of them was Schismatical ; for they did not separate ( never making mention of the cause at all ) but were separated by the Roman Church , and that upon some cause , though it were not sufficient . Ad § . 14. The Donatist did so ( as Facundus Hermianensis testifies : ) but you are abused , I believe , with not distinguishing between these two — They did pretend , that the Church required of them some unlawful thing among the conditions of her Communion : and they did pretend , that it was unlawful for them to communicate with the Church . This I confess they did pretend ; but it was in regard of some Persons in the Church , with whom they thought it unlawful to communicate : But the former they did not pretend , ( I mean while they continued meer Schismaticks , ) viz. That there was any Error in the Church , or impiety in her publick service of God : And this was my meaning in saying , — A Schismatick is he , which separates from the Church without pretence of Error , or unlawfulness in the conditions of her Communion : Yet if I had left out the term unlawfulness , the definition had been better , and not obnoxious to this Cavillation ; and so I did in the second Paper which I sent you for your direction ; which if you had dealt candidly , you should have taken notice of . Ad § . 15. I have replied ( as I think ) fully to every part and particle of your Argument . Neither was the History of S. Cyprians and S. Austins opposition to the Church of Rome an excursion or diversion ; but a cleer demonstation of the contradictory of your conclusion : ( viz. That the Roman Church , &c. and therefore her judgment not to be rested upon ) For an answer hereto I shall be very importunate with you ; and therefore , if you desire to avoid trouble , I pray come out of my debt as soon as may be . If it be said , that my Argument is not contradictory to your conclusion ; because it shews only , that the Roman Church with her adherents was not in S. Cyprians or S. Austins time the Catholick Chruch , but was at the time before Luther ; I say , to conclude the one is to conclude the other . For certainly , if it were then at Luthers time so , it was always so ; if it was not always , it was not then : for if it be of the essence , or necessary to the Church ( as is pretended ) to be a Society of Christians joyned in Communion with the Church and Bishop of Rome ; then did it always agree to the Church ; and therefore in S. Cyprians and S. Austins time , as well as at Luhers ●ising : if it were not always , particularly not in S. Cyprians time , of the Essence or necessary to the Church to be so ; then it was impossible the Church should acquire this Essence , or this property afterwards , and therefore impossible it should have it at the time of Luthers rising . Necessarium est , quod non aliquando inest , aliquando not inest , alicui inest , alicui non inest ; sed quod semper & o●ni . Arist. Post. Analyt . Again , every Sophister knows , that of Particulars nothing can be concluded ; and therefore he that will shew , that the Church of Rome and the adherents of it was the Catholick Church at Luthers rising ; He must argue thus ; — It was always so , therefore then ●t was so : Now this Antecedent is overthrown by any Instance to the contrary ; and so the first Antecedent being proved false , the first consequent cannot but be false ; for what Reason can be imagined , that the Church of Rome and the Adherents of it , was not the whole Catholick Church at S. Cyprians time , and was at Luthers rising ? If you grant ( as I think you cannot deny ) that a Church divided from the Communion of the Roman , may be still in truth and in Gods account a part of the Catholick ( which is the thing we speak of : ) then I hope Mr. Lewgars Arg●ment f●om Unity of Communion is fallen to the ground ; and it will be no good Plea to say , Some one Church , not consisting of divers Communions , was the Catholick Church at Luthers ●ising : No one Church can be named to be the Catholick Church , but the Roman : Therefore the Roman Church was the Catholick at Luthers rising . For Mr. Lewgar hath not nor cannot prove the Major of this syllogism certainly true ; but to the contrary I have proved , that it cannot be certainly true , by shewing divers instances , wherein divers divided Communions have made up the Catholick Church : and therefore not the dividing of the Communions , but the cause and ground of it , is to be regarded , whether it be just and sufficient , or unjust and insufficient . Neither is the Bishop or Church of Rome , with the Adherents of it , an infallible Judge thereof ; for it is evident , both he and it have erred herein divers times ; which I have evinced already by divers examples , which I will not repeat ; but add to them one confessed by Mr. Lewgar himself in his discourse upon the Article of the Catholick Church , pag. 84. S. Athanasius being excommunicated ( though by the a whole Church ) yet might remain a member of Christs body , ( not visible , for that is impossible , b that a person cut off from visible Communion , though unjustly , should be a visible member of the Church , but ) by invisible Communion , by reason of the invalidity of the sentence ; which being unjust , is valid enough to visible excision , but not farther . II. A Discourse against the Infallibility of the Roman Church , with an Answer to all those Texts of Scripture that are alledged to prove it . THE Condition of Communion with the Church of Rome , without the performance whereof no man can be received into it , is this , That he believe firmly and without doubting , whatsoever that Church requires him to believe . It is impossible that any man should certainly believe any thing , unless that thing be either evident of it self ( as that twice two are four ; that every whole is greater than a part of it self ) or unless he have some certain reason ( at least some supposed certain reason ) and infallible guide for his belief thereof . The Doctrins which the Church of Rome requireth to be believed are not evident of themselves ; for then every one would grant them at first hearing without any further proof . He therefore that will believe them , must have some certain and infallible ground whereupon to ●●●ld his belief of them . There is no other ground for a mans belief of them , especially in many points , but only an assurance of the Infallibility of the Church of Rome . Now this point of that Churches Infallibility , is not evident of it self ; for then no man could chuse but in his heart believe it without farther proof . Secondly , it were in vain to bring any proof of it , as vain as to light a Candle to shew men the Sun. Thirdly , it were impossible to bring any proof of it , seeing nothing can be more evident , than that which of it self is evident : and nothing can be brought in proof of any thing which is not more evident than that matter to be proved : But now experience teacheth that millions there are , which have heard talk of the Infallibitliy of the Roman Church , and yet do not believe that the defenders of it do not think it either vain or impossible to go about to prove it ; and from hence it follows plainly , that this point is not evident of it self . Neither is there any other certain ground for any mans belief of it : or if there be , I desire it may be produced , as who am ready and most willing to submit my judgment to it , fully perswaded that none can be produced , that will endure a severe and impartial examination . If it be said , The Roman Church is to be believed infallible because the Scripture says it is so . 1. I demand how shall I be assured of the Texts that be alledged , that they are indeed Scripture , that is , the Word of God ? And the answer to this must be either because the Church tells me so , or some other : if any other be given , then all is not finally resolved into , and built upon that Churches Authority ; and this answer then I hope a Protestant may have leave to make use of , when he is put to that perillous Question ; How know you the Scripture to be the Scripture ? If the answer be , because the Church tells me so : my reply is ready ; that to believe that Church is infallible , because the Scriptures say so : and that the Scripture is the word of God , because the same Church says so , is nothing else but to believe the Church is infallible , because the Church says so , which is infallible . 2. I could never yet from the beginning of Genesis , to the end of the Apocalypse , find it written so much as once in express terms , or equvalently , that the Church in subordination to the Sea of Rome shall be always infallible . 3. If it be said , that this is drawn from good consequence from Scripture truly interpreted ; I demand , what certain ground have I to warrant me , that this consequence is good and this interpretation true : and if answer be made , that reason will tell me so : I reply , 1. That this is to build all upon my own reason and private interpretation . 2. I have great reason to fear , that reason assures no man , that the infallibility of the Church of Rome may be deduced from Scripture , by good and firm consequence . 4. If it be said , that a Consent of Fathers do so interpret the Scripture . I answer , 1. That this is most false and cannot without impudence be pretended , as I am ready to justifie to any indifferent Hearer . 2. I demand , who shall be judge whether the Fathers mean as is pretended . If it be said , reason will tell me so : I say , 1. this is false . 2. This is again to do that which is objected to Protestants for such a horrid crime , that is , to build all finally upon reason . If it be said , they are so interpreted by the Catholick Church ; I demand , whether by the Catholick Church be meant that onely that is in subordination to the Bishop of Rome , or any other with that , or besides that . I● any other , it is false and impudent to pretend that they so understand the Fathers or Scriptures : If that only , then this is to say , that that Church is infallible , because it may be deduced from Scripture , that it is so ; and to prove that it may be deduced from Scripture , because the Fathers say so ; and to prove the Fathers do say and mean so , because the Church of Rome says they do so . And then what a stir and trouble was here to no purpose ; why was it not rather said plainly at the beginning ; The Church of Rome is certainly infallible , because she her self says so ; and she must say true because she is infallible : and that is as much to say as unless you grant me the Question , I neither can nor will dispute with you . If it is said , indeed the Fathers do not draw this doctrin from Scripture , but yet they affirm it with a full consent , as a matter of Tradition . I reply . 1. T●at this pretence also is false , and that upon tryal it will not appear to have any colour of probability to any who remembers , that it is the present Roman Church , and not the Catholick Church whose infallibility is here disputed . 2. I demand , who shall be judge , whether the Fathers do indeed affirm this or no : If reason , then again we are falle● upon that dangerous Rock , that all must be resolved into private reason : If the Church I ask again , what Church is meant ? If the Church of the Grecians or Abyss●nes or Protestants , or any other but the Roman , it is evident they deny it . If the Church of Rome , then we are again very near the head of the Circle . For I ask , how shall I be assured this Church will not err and deceive me in interpreting the Fathers ; and the Answer must be eithe none , or this , that the Church is infallible . Obj. If it be said , that the Infallibility of the Roman Church would yield the Church so many commodities , and that the want of an infallible Church to guide men in the way to Heaven , would bring so many mischiefs upon the world , that it cannot be thought but that God out of his love to men , hath appointed this Church as an infallible guide to all other Churches ; seeing it is so necessary there should be some such guide , and so evident there is no other . Ans. I answer , that this argument would serve the Church of Greece , or England , or Geneva , to prove it self infallible , and the guide of all other Churches , would they but take upon them to be so . For every one might say for it self ; It is necessary there should be some Guide ; it is evident there is no other ; Ergo I am appointed by God to be that Guide . The same argument any man might use , to make himself Monarch of any popular State : for first he might represent unto them the commodities of a Monarchy , and the mischiefs of a Democracy : then he might say , That God surely out of his Love to them hath appointed some remedy for their inconveniences : And lastly , that he hath ordained no other to redress them but himself , and then conclude , that he alone must of necessity be the man appointed to rule over them . I answer Secondly , that here also we must resolve all into Reason and the private Spirit , or that we are still in the Circle . For I demand , how do you know that these pretended commodities are to be compassed , and these pretended mischiefs are to be avoided , only by the Infallibility of the Church of Rome or some other Church , and not by any other means which God hath provided . If you say , reason tells you so ; I say 1. This is to make reason your last and lowest foundation . 2. I assure you Reason tells me no such matter , and yet I know that I am as willing to hear it as you are . If you say , the Church tells you so , and she is infallible ; this , I say , is to prove the Church infallible because she is so . Thirdly , I demand , How it is possible you should know , that these pretended commodities might not be gained , and these mischiefs which you fear avoided , without any assistance of the Church of Rome's infallibility , if all men in the world did believe the Scripture , and live according to it , and would require no more of others , but to do so ? If you say , that notwithstanding this , there would be no unity in Doctrin : I answer 1. It is impossible you should know this ; considering that there are many places in Scripture , which do more than problably import , that the want of piety in living , is the cause of want of unity in believing . 2. That there would be unity of Opinion in all things necessary : and that in things not necessary unity of Opinion is not necessary . But lastly , that notwithstanding differences in these things of lesser importance , there might and would be unity of Communion , unity of charity and affection , which is one of the greatest blessings which the world is capable of ; absolute unity of opinion being a matter rather to be desired than hoped for . Obj. Against this it has been objected , that the Scripture cannot be the guide , because many men have used their best endeavors to follow it , and yet have fallen , some into Arianism , others into Pelagianism , others into other damnable Heresies , and how can I secure any man , but he may do the like ? Ans. To this I answer , by distinguishing the persons which are pretended to have made use of this Guide , and yet to have fallen into Heresie , that they were either such as did love the truth sincerely and above all things , as did seek it diligently and with all their power , to this intent that they might conform their belief and life unto it ; such as following S. Pauls direction , did first try all things deliberately , and then chose what in their conscience they thought was best : or they were such as for want of the love of the truth , God suffered to fall into strong delusions , to fall to a false Religion , because they brought not forth the fruits of the true ; to make shipwreck of their faith , because they had cast away a good conscience ; to have their Eyes blinded , and their light taken away , because they made not the right use of it , but were idle and unprofitable , and set their hearts upon vanity , and had only a form of Religion , but denied the effect of it in their lives and conversation ; in a word , such as were betrayed to their Error , and kept for ever in it , either by negligence in seeking the Truth , or unwillingness to find it , or by some other voluntary sin : And for these I dare not flatter them with hope of pardon ; but let me tell you , it is not the error of the understanding , but the sin of their will that truly and properly damns them : But for the former I am confident , that nothing is more contumelious to the goodness of God , than to think that he will damn any such ; for he should damn men that truly love him , and desire to serve him , for doing that which all things considered , was impossible for them not to do . Obj. If it is said , that pride of their own understanding made them not submit to the Church of Rome , and to her guidance , and that for this , being a voluntary sin , they may be justly damned . Ans. I answer , that whether the Church of Rome be the guide of all men is the Question , and therefore not to be begged but proved : that the man we speak of is very willing to follow this Guide , could he find any good ground to believe it is his Guide ; and therefore the reason he follows her not , is not pride but ignorance : that as it is humility to obey those whom God hath set over us , so it is credulity to follow every one that will take upon him to lead us : that if the blind lead the blind , not only the leader but the follower shall perish : Lastly , that the present Church of Rome pretends very little and indeed nothing of moment , to get the office of being Head and Guide of the Church , which Antichrist when he cometh , may not and will not make use of , for the very same end and purpose ; and therefore he had reason , not to be too sudden and precipitate , in committing himself to the conduct of the Pope , for fear of mistaking Antichrist for the Vicar of Christ. Obj. But in all Commonwealths , it is necessary there should be not only a Law for men to live by , but also a living and speaking Judge to decide their differences arising about the various Interpretations of the Law , and otherwise Controversies would be endless : therefore if such a judge be so necessary in civil affairs , for the procuring and preserving our temporal peace and happiness ; how much more necessary is he , for the deciding of those Controversies , that concern the saving and damning of our souls for ever . Ans. Hereunto I answer , 1. That if it were as evident and certain that God hath appointed the Pope or Church of Rome to be the Guide of Faith , and Judge of Controversies , as that the King hath appointed such a one to be Lord Chief Justice , the having of such a Guide would be very available , for to preserve the Church in Unity , and to conduct mens souls to Heaven : but a Judge that has no better title or evidence to his place , than the Pope has to that which he pretends to , a Judge that is doubtful and justly questionable whether he be the Judge or no , is in all probability likely to produce clean contrary effects , and to be himself one of the Apples of strife , one of the greatest subjects of Controversie , and occasion of di●sentions . And to avoid this great inconvenience , if God had intended the Pope or Church of Rome for this great Office , certainly he would have said so very plainly and very frequently ; if not frequently , certainly sometimes , once at least he would have said so in express terms : but he does not say so , no not so much as once , nor any thing from whence it may be collected , with any sure or firm consequence : therefore if it be not certain , certainly it is very probab●le he never meant so . Again , in Civil Controversies the case can hardly be so put , that there should be any necessity that the same man should be Judge and Party : but in matters of Religion , wherein all have equal interest , every man is a party , and engaged to judge for temporal respects , this way or that way , and therefore not fit to be a Judge . But what then if he which was with so much clamor and so little reason vouched , for the Infallibility of the Roman Church , do tell you plainly , there is no living Judge on Earth appointed by God , to decide the Controversies arising amongst Christians ; nor no way to determine them but Scripture . His words are express and formal , and need no other commentary but a true interpretation . Optatus Melevit . lib. 5. ad princip . Vos dicitis , Licet ; nos , non Licet : inter Vestrum Licet , & nostrum non Licet , nutant & remigant animae populorum . Nemo vobis credat , nemo nobis ; omnes contentiosi homines sumus . Quaerendi sunt judices : si Christiani , de utrâque parte dari non possunt : de foris quaerendus est Iudex . Si Paganus , non potest nosse Christiana Secreta : Si Judaeus , inimicus est Christiani Baptismatis . Ergo in terris de hac re nullum poterit reperiri judicium : de coelo quaerendus est Iudex . Sed ut quid pulsamus coelum , cum habeamus hic in Evangelio Testaomentum ? Quia hoc loco rectè possunt terrenae coelestibus comparari ; tale est , quod quivis botninum habens numerosos filios : His , quamdiu presens est , ipse imperat singulis ; non est adbuc necessarium Testamentum . Sic & Christus , quamdiu praesens in terris fuit ( quanivis nec modo desit ) pro tempore quicquid necessarium erat , Apostolis imperavit . Sed quomodo terrenus pater cùm se in confinio senserit mortis , timens ne post mortem suam rupt● pace litigent fratres , adhibitis testibus voluntatem suam de pectore morituro transfert in tabulas diù duraturas ; & si fuerit inter fratres contentio nata , non itur ad tumulum , sed quaeritur Testamentum , & qui in tumulo quiescit , tacitis de tabulis loquitur vivus . Is , cujus est testamentum , in coelo est : Ergo voluntas ejus velut in Testamento sic in Evangelio inquiratur . That is , You say such a thing is Lawful ; we say it is Unlawful : the minds of the People are do●btful and wavering between yo●r lawful and our unlawful . Let no man believe either you or us ; we are all contentious men . we must seek therefore for Judges between us . If Christians are to be our Judges ; both sides will not afford such . We must seek for a Judges abroad . If he be a Pagan , he cannot know the secrets of Christianity : If he be a Iew , he is an Enemy to Christian Baptism . Therefore there is no judgment of this matter can be found on Earth . We must seek for a Judge from Heaven . But to what end do we sollicite Heaven , when we have here in the Gospel a Will and Testament ? And because here we may fitly compare Earthly things with Heavenly ; The case is just as if a man had many Sons : while he is present with them , he commands every one what he will have done ; and there is no need as yet of making his last Will. So also Christ , as long as he was present on Earth ( though neither now is he wanting ) for a time commanded his Apostles , whatsoever was necessary . But just as an Earthly Fathe● ; when he ●●ls his Death approaching , fearing lest after his Death the Brothers should fall out and quarrel , he calls in Witnesses , and translates his Will from his dying Heart into Writing-Tables that will continue long after him : Now if any controversie arises among the Brothers ; they do not go to his Tomb , but consult his last W●ll ; and thus he whilst he rests in his Grave , does speak to them in those silent Tables as if he were alive . He w●ose Testament we have , is in Heaven . Therefore we are to enquire 〈◊〉 pleasure in the Gospel , as in his last Will and Testament . It is plain from hence , that he knew not or any living , speaking , audible Judge , furnished with Authority and infallibility to decide this controversie : had he known any such assisted with the Spirit of God for this purpose , it had been horrible impiety against God and the Churches peace , to say there was none such : or the Spirit of God was not able by his assistance to keep this Judge from being hindred with partiality , from seeing the Truth . Had he thought the Bishop of Romes speaking ex Cathedra to be this Judge , now had been the time to have ●aid so : but he says directly the contrary , and therefore it is plain , he knew of no such Authority he had . Neither is there the like reason for a Judge finally and with Authority to determine controversie , in Religion and civil disserences : For if the controversie be about M●ne and Thine , about I and or Money or any other thing , it is impossible that both I should hold the possession of it and my adversary too : and one of us must do injury to the other , which is not fit it should be Eternal : But in matters of Doctrine the case is clean contrary ; I may hold my opinion and do my Adversary no wrong , and my Adversary may hold his and do me none . [ Texts of Scripture alledged for Infallibility . ] The Texts alledged for it by Cardinal Perron and Mr. Stratford , are partly Prophecies of the Old Testament , partly promises of the New. 1. Esa. 1. 26. Thou shalt be called the City of Iustice , the faithful City . 2. Esa. 52. 1. Through thee shall no more pass any that is uncircumcised , or unclean . 3. Esa. 59. 21. As for me , this is my Covenant with them , saith the Lord , my spirit that is upon thee , and my Words which I have put in thy mouth , shall not depart out of thy mouth , nor out of the mouth of thy seed , nor out of the mouth of thy seeds seed , saith the Lord , from henceforth and for ever . 4. Esa. 62. 6. Upon thy Walls Hierusalem I have appointed Watchmen all the day and all the night for ever , they shall not hold their peace . 5. Jerem. 31. 33. This shall be the Covenant which I will make with the House of Israel , saith the Lord , I will give my Law in their Bowels , and in their Heart I will write it , and I will be their God , and they shall be my People . 6. Ezek. 36. 27. I will put my Spirit within you , and cause you to walk in my Statutes , and ye shall keep my judgments and do them . 7. Ezek. 37. 26. I will give my Sanctification in the midst of them for ever . 8. Ose. 2. 19 , 20. I will dispouse thee to me for ever ; and I will dispouse thee to me in Iustice and judgment , and in mercy and commiserations ; I will Espouse thee to me in Faith , and thou shalt know that I am the Lord. 9. Cant. 4. 7. Thou art all fair my Love , and there is no spot in thee . Now before we proceed further , let us reflect upon these places , and make the most of them for the behoof of the Roman Church ; and I believe it will then appear to any one not veil'd with prejudice , that not one of them reaches home to the conclusion intended , which is , That the Roman Church is infallible . The first place perhaps would do something , but that there are Three main exceptions against it . 1. That here is no evidence , not so much as that of probability , that this is here spoken of the Church of R●me . 2. That it is certain that it is not spoken of the Church of Rome ; but of the Nation of the Iews , after their conversion , as is apparent from that which follows . Zion shall be redeeme● with judgment , and her converts with righteousn●ss . 3. That it is no way certain , that whatsoever Society may be called , the City of righteousness , the faithful City , m●st be infallible in all her Doctrine : with a great deal more probability , it might challenge from hence the privi●edg of being Impeccable ; which yet Roman Catholicks I believe do not pretend to . The Second place is liable to the same exceptions ; the Church of Rome is not spoken of in it : but Zion and Hierusalem ; and it will serve as well nay better to prove Impeccability than Infallibility . The third place is the Achilles for this opinion , wherein every writer Triumphs ; but I wonder they should do so ; considering the Covenant here spoken of is made , not with the Church of Rome , but with Zion and them that turn from transgression in Iacob , the words are : And the Rede●mer shall come out of Zion , and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob saith the Lord. As for me , this is my Covenant with them saith the Lord ; My Spirit that is in thee and my Words , &c. Now if the Church of Rome be Zion and they that turn from iniquity in Iacob , they may have Title to this Covenant ; if not they must forbear , and leave it to the Iews after their Conversion ; to whom it is appropriated by a more Infallible Interpreter than the Pope ; I mean S. Paul , Rom. 11. 26. And it seems the Church of Rome also believes as much ▪ for otherwise why does she in the Margent of her Bible , send us to that place of S. Paul for an exposition . Read the 4th place , and you shall find nothing can be made of it but this : that the Watchmen of Hierusalem shall never cease importuning God , for the sending of the Messias : To this purpose speaks the Prophet in ver . 1. For Zions sake I will not hold my peace , and for Hierusalems sake I well not rest , until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness : And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness . But the words following these that are objected , make it most evident , which are , ye that make mention of the Lord keep not sil●nce , and give him no rest , till he establish and till he make Hierusalem a praise in the Earth . The 5th place had they set down entirely , for very shame they could not have urged it for the Infallibility of the Roman Church . The words are , Behold the days come , saith the Lord , that I will make a new Covenant with the House of Israel , and with the House of Judah ; not according to the Covenant which I made with their Fathers — But this shall be the Covenant that I will make with the House of Israel — After those days , saith the Lord , I will put my Law in their inward parts and write it in their Hearts , and I will be their God and they shall be my People ; and they shall teach no more every man his Neighbour and every man his Brother , saying , know the Lord ; for they shall all know me from the least of them to the greatest of them , saith the Lord. And now I have transcribed the place , I think it superfluous to make any other answer . The same Answer and no other will I make also to the 6th place . The words are . Therefore say unto the House of Israel ; thus saith the Lord God , I do not this for your sakes O House of Israel , but for my holy names sake , ver . 22. I will take you from among the Heathen , and gather you out of all Countries , and will bring you into your own Land , v. 24. Then will I sprinkle clean Water upon you , ver . 25. A new heart also will I give you , ver . 26. And I will put my Spirit in you and cause you to walk in my Statutes , and ye shall keep my judgments and do them , ver . 27. And ye shall dwell in the Land that I gave to your Fathers : I will also save you from all your uncleannesses , and I will call for the Corn and will encrease it , and lay no Famine upon you . And the desolate Land shall be tilled , ver . 34. And they shall say , this Land that was desolate , is become like the Garden of Eden . The 7th place also carries its answer in its forehead : Thus saith the Lord God , behold I will take the Children of Israel from among the Heathen whether they be gone ; and I will make them one Nation in the Land upon the mountains of Israel : and one King shall be King to them all , &c. to the end of the Chapter . In all which place , he that can find a Syllable of the Church of Rome , he must have better eyes than I have . The next ( 8th ) place would be very pregnant for the Church of Rome , if of courtesie we would grant , that whatsoever is promised to Israel , is intended to them . As you may see in the place at large , from ver . 17. to the end of the Chapter . The 9th and last place out of the Canticles , had it been urged by a Protestant ; it would have been thought a sufficient Answer to have said , That Mystical Texts are not fit to argue upon ; but if this will not serve , then we answer . 1. That there is no mention nor intimation of the Church of Rome . 2. That it proves either too much or nothing at all : that is , that the Roman Church is impeccable , as well as infallible ; unless we will say that Errors only are Spots , and impieties are not . Out of the New Testament they alledge these Texts . Matth. 16. 18. Upon this Rock I will build my Church , and the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it . But this is said of the Catholick , not of the Roman Church : nor can it ever be proved that the Church in Communion with the See of Rome is the Catholick Church . Secondly , it says something for the perpetuity of the Church , but not for the In●allibility of it : unless you will take for granted what can never be proved , That a Church that teaches any Erroneous Doctrine , is a Church no longer ; which is all one , as if you should say , a man that has the Stone , or Gout , or any other Disease , is not a man. They urge , Matth. 28. 19 , 20. And I am with you all days , even unto the consummation of the World. And here also if we will grant , 1. That by you , is meant you and only you of the Church of Rome . 2. That our Saviour has here obliged himself to assist , not only Suffici●nter , but also irresistibiliter , not only to preserve in the Church a light of sufficient direction , as he provided a Star for the Wise Men , and a Pillar of Fire and a cloud for the conduct of the Israelites ; but also compel or at least necessitate them to follow it . 3. That he will be with them , not only to keep them from all damnable and destructive Errors , but absolutely form all erroneous Doctrines : If these things I say were granted , some good might be done . But certainly these are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , too great favours to be lookt for by strangers : And yet if all this be granted , we should run into this inconvenience on the other side ; that if the promise be absolute , not only the whole Church of Rome ; not only a general Council ; not the Pope alone ; but every Bishop , every Priest , every one who is sent by Christ to Baptize and Preach the Gospel , might claim this assistance by vertue of Christs words , and consequently Infallibility . They urge , Matth. 18. 17. If he will not hear the Church , let him be to thee as the Heathen and the Publican . And here again the Church must be the Church of Rome , or we are as far to seek as ever . But what if by it be meant , which is most evident out of the place , every particular Church of Christians , whereunto any one Christian injured by another , may address himself for remedy . Certainly whosoever reads the place without prejudice , I am confident that he shall not deny , but that the sense of the Words is . That if any Christian injure another , and being first admonished of it by him in private ; then by him before two or three Witnesses ; Lastly , by the Church he lives in ; and yet still proceeds on obstinately in doing injury to his Brother , he is to be esteemed as a Heathen , or a Publican : and then if Infallibility may be concluded , what a multitude of Infallible Churches shall we have ? They urge , Matth. 18. 20. Where two or three are gathered together in my name , there am I in the midst of them . But this also either shoots short , or over ; either proves nothing , or too much : Either it proves not the Infallibility of the whole Church , or it proves the Infallibility of every part of it : Either not the Infallibility of General Councils , or the infallibility of particular Councils ; for there two or three at least are assembled in Christs name . But then besides these two or three for ought I can see or gather from the Text , they may as well be of any other Church as the Roman . They urge , Luke 10. 16. He that heareth you heareth me , and he that despiseth you despiseth me . But this will not do you any service , unles ; of favour we grant , that you here , is you of the Church of Rome ; and but very little if that be granted : for then every Bishop , every Priest must be Infallible . For there is not the meanest of the Messengers of Christ , bu● this may be verified of him , That he that heareth him , heareth Christ , and he that despiseth him , despiseth Christ. They urge out of John 14. ver . 15 , 16. I will ask my Father , and he will give you another Paraclete , that he may abide with you for ever , e●en the Spirit of Truth . But here also , what warrant have we , by you to understand the Church of Rome : whereas he that compares v. 26. with this , shall easily perceive , that our Saviour speaks only of the Apostles in their own persons ; for there he says going on in the same discourse . The Holy Ghost whom the Father will send in my name , he shall teach you all things , and bring all things to your remembrance , whatsoever I have said to you : which cannot agree but to the Apostles themselves in person ; and not to their Successors , who had not yet been taught and therefore not forgotten any thing , and therefore could not have them brought to their remembrance . But what if it had been promised to them and their Successors ? had they no Successors but them of the Roman Church ? this indeed is pretended and cried up , but for proofs of it , desiderantur . Again , I would fain know whether there be any certainty , that every Pope is a good Christian , or whether he may not be in the sence of the Scripture , of the World ? If not , how was it that Bellarmine should have cause to think , that such a rank of them went successively to the Devil ? III. A Conference , concerning the Infallibility of the Roman Church : Proving that the present Church of Rome either errs in her worshipping the Blessed Virgin Mary , or that the Ancient Church did err in condemning the Collyridians as Hereticks . 1. Demand . WHether the Infallibility of the Roman Church , be not the foundation of their Faith which are members of that Church ? Answ. The Infallibility of the Church is ( not the foundation but ) a part of their Faith who are members of the Church . And the Roman Church is held to be the Church , by all those who are members of it . Reply . That which is the last Reason , why you believe the Scripture to be the written Word of God and unwritten Traditions his unwritten word ; and this or that to be the true sense of Scripture , that is to you the foundation of your Faith , and such unto you is the Infallible Authority of the Roman Church . Therefore unto you it is not only a part of your faith , but also such a part as is the foundation of all other parts . Therefore you are deceived if you think , there is any more opposition between being a part of the faith and the foundation of other parts of it ; than there is between being a part of a house and the foundation of it . But whether you will have it the foundation of your faith , or only a part of it , for the present purpose it is all one . 2. Demand . Whether the Infallibility of the Roman Church be not absolutely overthrown , by proving the present Roman Church is in error , or that the Ancient was ? Answ. It is , if the Error be in those things wherein she is affirmed to be infallible ; viz. in points of F●ith . Reply . And this here spoken of , whether it be lawful to offer Tapers and Incense to the honour of the Blessed Virgin , is I hope a Question concerning a point of Faith. 3. Demand . Whether offering a Cake to the Virgin Mary , be not as lawful , as to offer Incense and Tapers and divers other oblations to the same Virgin ? Answ. It is as lawful to offer a Cake to her honour as Wax-Tapers , but neither the one , nor the other may be offered to her , or her honour , as the term or object of the Action . For to speak properly , nothing is offered to her or to her honour , but to God in the honour of the Blessed Virgin. For Incense , it is a foul slander that it is offered any way to the Blessed Virgin ; for that incensing which is used in the time of Mass , is ever understoo● by all sorts of people to be directed to God only . Reply . If any thing he offered to her , she is the Object of that oblation ; as if I see water , and through water something else , the water is the object of my sight , though not the last object . If I honour the Kings Deputy , and by him the King , the Deputy is the object of my action , though not the final object : And to say these things may be offered to her , but not as to the object of the action , is to say they may be offered to her , but not to her . For what else is meant by the object of an action , but that thing on which the action is imployed , and to which it is directed ? If you say , that by the object of the action , you mean the final object only wherewith the action is terminated ; you should then have spoken more properly and distinctly , and not have denied her simply to be the object of this action , when you mean only she is not such a kind of object : no more than you may deny a man to be a living creature , meaning only that he is not a horse . Secondly , I say , it is not required of Roman Catholicks when they offer Tapers to the Saints , that by an actual intention they direct their action actually to God ; but it is held sufficient , that they know and believe that the Saints are in Subordination and near Relation to God , and that they give this honour to the Saints because of this relation : And to God himself rather habitually and interpretative , than actually , expresly and formally . As many men honour the Kings Deputy , without having any present thought of the King , and yet their action may be interpreted an honour to the King , being given to his Deputy , only because he is his Deputy , and for his relation to the King. Thirdly , I say , there is no reason or ground in the world , for any man to think , that the Collyridians did not chuse the Virgin Mary for the object of their worship , rather than any other Woman or any other Creature , meerly for her relation to Christ ; and by consequence there is no ground to imagine , but that at least habitually and interpretative , they directed their action unto Christ , if not actually and formally . And Ergo , if that be a sufficient defence for the Papists , that they make not the Blessed Virgin the final object of their worship , but worship her not for her own sake , but for her relation unto Christ : Epiphanius surely did ill to charge the Collyridians with Heresie , having nothing to impute to them , but only that he was informed , that they offered a Cake to the honour of the Blessed Virgin , which honour yet they might , and without question did give unto her for her relation unto Christ , and so made her not the last object and term of their worship : and from hence it is evident , that he conceived the very action it self , substantially and intrinsically malitious , i. e. he believed it a sin that they offered to her at all : and so by their action put her in the place of God by giving unto her this worship proper to God ; and not that they terminated their action finally in her , or did i● very deed think her to be a God , and not a Creature . But to speak properly , you say , nothing is offered to her or to her honour , but to God in honour of the Blessed Virgin. Belike then if through Henly I go from hence to London , I may not be said properly to go to Henly , but only to London : or if through Water I see the Sand , I may not be properly said to see the Water , but only the Sa●d . Away with such shifting Sophistry ; either leave your practice of offering to Saints if it be naught , or colour it not over with such empty distinctions if it be good : Christ saith to his Apostles in regard of their relation to him , He that heareth you heareth me , and he that despiseth you despiseth ●●e : and yet who doubts , but they that heard the Apostles did properly hear them , and they that despised them did properly despise them , though their action staid not in them , but reached up to Heaven and to Christ himself . You pray to Saints and Angels , though you do not terminate your prayers in them ; and yet I doubt not but your prayers to Saints , may be as properly called prayers , as those you make to God himself . For though these be of a more excellent nature than they , yet do they agree in the general nature , that they are both prayers . As though a Man be a more excellent living creature than a ho●se , yet he agrees with him in this , that both are living creatures . But if nothing be properly offered to her or to her honor , why do you in your sixth Answer say , you may offer any thing to the Virgin Mary , by way of presents and gif●s by the doctrin of the Roman Church ? Certainly he that offers by way of gift or present , offers as prope●ly as he that offers ●y way of sacrifice ; as a horse is as properly a living creature as a Man. But if it were so as ●ou say ( which is most false ) that you did not properly offer to the Blessed Virgin , but to God in honour of her ; yet in my judgment , this would not qualifie or mend the matter but make it worse . For first , who taught you , that in the time of the Gospel ( after the accomplishment of the prediction , sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not but a body hast thou prepared me : after this Interpretation of it in the Epistle to the Hebrews , He taketh away the first that he may establish the second ) that it is still lawful to offer Tapers or Incense to God. Secondly , in my understanding , to offer to God in honour of the Virgin , is more derogatory from Gods honour , than to offer to her in the honour of God. For this is in my apprehension to subordinate God to her , to make her the terminating and final object of the action ; to make God the way and her the end , and by and through God to conveigh the worship unto her . But for incense , you say , it is a soul slander , that it is offered any way to the Blessed Virgin. To this I answer , that your imputing slander to me , is it self a slander : For● . In your 5th Answer , you have given a clear intimation that you have never been out of England : so that you cannot certainly know , what is the practice of your Church in this point beyond Sea. And he that lives amongst you , and has but half an Eye open and free from prejudice , cannot but see , that the Roman Religion is much more exorbitant in the general practice of it , than it is in the Doctrine published in Books of Controversie ; where it is delivered with much caution and moderation , nay cunning and dissimulation that it may be the fitter to win and engage Proselytes ; who being once ensnared , though they be afterwards startled with strange and unlookt-for practices , yet a hundred to one , but they will rather stif●e their Conscience , and dash all scruples against the pretended Rock of their Church●s Infallibility , and blindly follow those guides , to whose Conduct they have unadvisedly committed themselves , than come off again with the shame of being reputed weak and inconstant : so terrible an Idol is this vain nothing , the opinion and censure of foolish men . But to return again to you , I say your ignorance of the practice of the Roman Church beyond the Seas , does plainly convince that you have rashly and therefore slanderously charged me with the Crime of slander . As for your reason you add , consider it again , and you will see it is worth nothing . For what if incensing in time of Mass , be understood by all sorts of People to be directed to God alone ( which yet you cannot possibly know ) yet this I hope hinders not , but that in Processions , you may Incense the Images of the Saints , and consequently ( according to your Doctrine ) do this Honour to the Saints themselves represented by the Images . I my self ( unless I am very much mistaken ) was present when this very thing was done to the Picture of Saint Benet or Saint Gregory in the Cloyster of Saint Vedastus in the Monastery in Doway . But indeed what a ridiculous inconsequence is it , to think that Wax Tapers may lawfully be offered to the Saints and incense may not : or if Incense may not , which you seem to disclaim as impious , that Wax Tapers may . 4. Demand . Whether the Collyridians were not condemned as Hereticks by the Ancient Church . First , for offering a Cake upon a Anniversary Feast to the Blessed V●rgin . Secondly for that they did this not being Priests . Answ. The Collyridians were condemned as Hereticks for two things . First , for imploying Women in the place and Office of Priests to offer a Cake ( not in the nature of a gift or present , ) but in the nature of a a Sacrifice , which was never lawful for any but b men , and those c consecrated . Secondly , for offering this a Sacrifice 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the name of the Blessed Virgin , i. e. unto her , her self directly and terminatively , as an act of b Divine Worship and adoration , due unto her , as unto a Sovereign c Power and Deity . Reply . It seems then these Women might offer this Cake to the honour and name of the Virgin Mary , if they had done it as a Gift or Present and not as a Sacrifice . Epiphanius then surely was too hasty to condemn them , being informed of nothing , but that they offered a Cake unto her . Methinks before he had put them in his Catalogue , he should have enquired whether they offered this Cake as a Gift only , or as a Sacrifice . Certainly had the practice of offering to Saints by way of gifts , been the practice of the Church in his time , he would not have been so uncharitable , as to condemn that action as impious and Heretical , which might have received so lawful and pious a construction . But he , good man , it seems could not conceive a difference between a Sacrifice , and the offering a Creature by way of Consumption to the Honour of that to which it is offered . The subtle Wits of our times I hope have found out another definition for it , and I shall understand by you what it is . But if you can find no other , then certainly , though setting up a Picture or hanging up a Leg or Eye or Ear in memory of some miraculous cure , obtained by a Saints intercession , would be a Gift or Present only ; yet offering of Incense , or burning a Taper in the honour of a Saint , daub the matter how you will , will be without Question a Sacrifice . If you say , that there may be such an offering and yet no Sacrifice ; I would know then , how you would prove that the Collyridians offering was indeed a Sacrifice ? All that Epiphanius says of them is but this — Panem proponunt & in Mariae nomen offerunt . And though this offering of theirs was indeed a Sacrifice in the notion of th● word which I have given it , yet doth he not any where say expresly , That they did Sacrifice , or offer it as a Sacrifice , but only and barely that they did ●ffer it : not using ( as good fortune would have it ) any word which doth of necessity and properly signifie to Sacrifice : and therefore you are fain to help the Dice , and alter every place for your advantage . Epiphanius says not , as you tr●nslate him , ut in nomen Virginis Collyridem quendam Sacrifice●t ; nor Sacrificantes osserunt , as Petavius : but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which ma● as well signifie , to cons●●●rate or offer , as to Sacrifice , if there be any difference between them . So the next place , offerunt panem i● nomen Mariae , omnes autem pane partic●pant ; proves not I hope offering by way of Sacrifice , unless the Consumption of the oblation make it a Sacrifice ; which if it do , how your Tapers can be kept from being Sacrifices I cannot im●gine ; unless again perhaps Consumption by way of Eating will make it a Sacrifice , and by Burning will not ; which cannot be , because the whole Burnt-offerings were Sacrifices as well as any other . Your thi●d place is , Deo autem ab aeterno nullatenus mulier 〈◊〉 . But 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies not to Sacrifice , but only to 〈◊〉 the Office of a Priest , and so Petavius translates th● place . Nunquam sacerdotio functa est mulier . And though Sacrificing be one perhaps , yet will you not say it is the only Office of a Priest : as your next and last place would have declared , had you set it down faithfully ; but in that also you juggle again , and force it to speak to your purpose thus . Diaconissarum ordo est in Ecclesia , sed non ad Sacrificandum : but Petavius hath translated it truly thus : Quanquam vero Diaconissarum in Ecclesia ordo sit , n●n tamen ad sacerdotii functionem , aut ullam administrationem institutus est . And now though by an usual Synechdoche the name of the Genus be given to the Species , and therefore had a man fairly and candidly translated 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by Sa●rifico , I should not have much condemned him , yet to do it when the Question is , whether this t●eir offering , confessed to be an offering , were in propriety of speech a Sacrifice , to do it for Ends , to shift off a convincing argument , to palliate over a foul matter , by putting a verbal difference where there is none indeed , and all that you may , Imperitos rerum in fraudem illicere ; that is — But I forbear you . But Secondly it is pretended , [ they offered this Sacrifice 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the name of the Blessed Virgin : i. e. unto her , her self , directly and terminately as an act of Divine Worship and adoration due unto her , as unto a Sovereign Power and Deity . ] And to colour and countenance this strange gloss , many places are quoted out of Epiphanius , which I will examine in order as they lie . The first place is , mortuis cultum Divinum praestantes , where your meaning is , I believe , that Epiphanius says the Collyridians did so : but the truth is he says only , mortuos colentes ; as Petavius translates it : and therefore here once again you help the Dice ; yet if he had said so , why should you rather from cultum divinum collect that , that they thought her God , than from mortuis , that they thought her Dead , and therefore certainly not a God ? Certainly this can be no warrant to you , that Epiphanius charges them with so thinking : For Protestants you know impute to Papists that they give to Saints cultum divinum , and yet they do not impute to them the Heresie of thinking , that the Saints are Sovereign Powers and Deities : But as S. Paul accuseth the Gentiles , for that knowing God to be God , they did not worship him as God , so on the other side , Protestants condemn Papists , and Epiphanius for ought we can see hitherto , might condemn the Collyridians , for that knowing the Blessed Virgin not to be God , they yet worship'd her as God. That is , gave her that worship which is Gods own peculiar , which yet they might do , not because they thought her God , but because this worship , which was indeed proper to God , they might think not proper , but communicable to such Creatures as were high in his favour . The next place is — Revera virgo erat honorata , sed non ad adorationem nobis data , sed ipsa adorans Deum , &c. I answer that the &c. perhaps conceals something more pertinent to your purpose , but in the Words set down there appears to me just nothing ; for I can frame out of them no other Syllogism but this . Whatsoever Epiphanius in this place says is not to be adored , that the Collyridians thought to be God. But Epiphan . here says the Virgin is not to be adored . Ergo. The Collyridians thought her God. Of this Syllogism I deny the Major proposition , and I believe shall stay as long for a proof of it , as I have done for an answer to some other discourses , which being written in a few days , have waited now with a longing expectation for a promised answer many ●onths . If you say , you would conclude from these Words , that they did adore her and therefore thought her God , I have answered already , that they might do this , not because they thought her God , but because they thought Creatures high in Gods favour capable of adoration . The next place — Non ut adoretur Virgo , nec ut deum hanc efficeret — tells us that Christ took Flesh of the Virgin , not that she should be adored , nor to make her God : And this you think imports , that they conceive her God. Yet if I should , condemning your Practice of offering Tapers to her , use the same Words and say , — Christ took Flesh of the Virgin , not that she should be adored , or to make her God : You would not yet conceive that I charged you with the Heresie of believing her God , but only of the impiety of giving to her that worship which was peculiar to God : and why then might not Epiphanius , having like occasion , use the same words to the Collyridians upon the same , and no other ground . The next place — Mariam nemo adoret Deo debetur hoc mysterium , — is so far from proving your imagination , that it strongly confirms my assertion , that Epiphanius did not impute to the Collyridians the opinion , that the Virgin Mary was God. If I should say to a Papist , the Blessed Virgin is not to be worshiped with the worship of Hyperdaulia , because such worship is due only to the Mother of God , would they not say I were mad and argued against my self , for that they believed she was the Mother of God. By like reason , if Epiphanius knew , that the Collyridians believed the Virgin Mary to be God , he reasoned as wildly against himself in saying — Mariam nemo adoret , Deo debetur hoc mysterium — For it is very true ( might they have said ) this service is due to God alone , but you know our Belief and Profession that she is God , and therefore by your own rule capable of this worship . The next place is — Pro Deo hanc introducere studuerunt . And may not this be justly said to any man , who to any thing besides God , gives that worship which is proper and peculiar unto God ? What if to man that should teach — The Pope had power to dispense with men for the keeping of Gods Laws — I should say , pro Deo Papam introducis . Must I of necessity mean that that man did verily believe the Pope not a man but a Sovereign Power and Deity ? S. Paul tells us that Covetousness is Idolatry ; he tells us of some , whose God is their Belly ; is it therefore consequent , that every covetous man doth indeed believe his Gold , and every Glutton his Belly , to be indeed a Sovereign Power and Deity ? Away with such fopperies . Whosoever loves , or fears , or trusts in any thing more than God , may yet be justly said to make that his God , and whosoever should worship any Creature with that external worship which God has appropriated to himself , might justly be said to bring in that Creature for God. S. Paul tells us of some , who in words professed God , yet fact is negabant , in their deeds deny him : so these on the contrary , may in their words deny this Creature to be God , and in their Hearts not think it so , yet seeing their actions to it are as if it were God , they may be justly charged , that with their deeds they make this Creature God. Qui fingit Sacros ex auro & marmore vultus , Non facit ille Deos , qui colit ille facit . What if upon consideration of the strangely enormous worship which Papists give to the Virgin Mary ( swearing by her name , making Vows unto her , offering Tapers to her Honour , attributing a kind of Communicated omniscience and almost omnipotence to her , as I can easily make good they do , partly out of the Offices of their Church , partly out of private mens Works , but set out with Licence and approbation ) what I say , if upon this consideration I should affirm , pro Deo ipsam introducere conantur . Would it therefore be consequent , that I must impute this Blasphemy to them , that they believed and taught her to be a Sovereign Power and Deity ? I trow not . And therefore Epiphanius might say the same of the Collyridians considering their Action , withou● any intent of imputing to them any such opinion . This Petavius sure saw well enough , and therefore ( as I shall hereafter demonstrate to the Eye ) to countenance his M●rginal Annotation , Quidam Mariam Deum esse credider●nt , he cunningly abuses and perverts Epiphanius his Text with false Translation . — Sic pugnat , Sic est metuendus Ulysses . — The next place is , revera sanc●um erat Mar●ae corpus non tamen Deus . ( The Body of Mary was truly holy , but not a God. ) As much to the purpose as — Tityre tu patulae — for what if Epiphanius say , she is not God , and therefore not to be adored , does it therefore follow that the Collyridians believed she was a God ? He that knows Logick or sense , cannot but know , that he that will confute an Adversaries conclusion , must choose such principles to do it , to which his Adversary consents , and out of that which he grants prove that which he denies ; or if his first propositions be not agreed to by his Adversary , he must prove them in the end by such as are agreed to ; or else he does nothing . And therefore seeing Epiphanius thinks it sufficient for the convincing of the Collyridians , of the unlawfulness of the practice , to say , she was not God : it is evident , that so far was he from imputing to them the belief that she was God , that he seems rather to take the contrary for a principle agreed upon between them , which it was sufficient to say and superfluous to prove . This answer I thought good to make , while I conceived that here Epiphanius had denied the Person of the Virgin Mary to be God ; but after upon better consideration I sound that Petavius had abused me with adding to Epiphanius of his own — Illa fuit — and that Epiphanius says not here , non tamen Deus ( she was not God ) of her Person , but of her Body ; and as yet I do not understand that you impute to the Collyridians the belief , that her Body was God. The next place — Mulierem eam appellavit , &c. — says no more but this ; that our Saviour calls the Blessed Virgin Woman , that no man might think her any thing more than a Woman , as it were prophetically refuting the Schisms and Heresies which would be in the World : lest some out of excess of admiration of her , might fall into the Dotage of this Heresie . Thus far Epiphanius : but then the Question will be , what was this Heresie . You say the belief that she was God. I say , not that she was God , but that they might lawfully offer to her . And as I deny not but it follows , she is a Woman , therefore not a God ; so I think you will grant it follows as justly , she is a Woman , therefore not to be adored with offerings . And therefore seeing the words lie indifferently between us , and are not expressly and especially here applied , for the refutation of that Heresie which you pretend they were guilty of , I see no reason why Epiphanius might not as well intend them for that purpose which I conceive , as for that which you conceive . The last place alledged tells us , that she was begotten and Born as other Men and Women are . Which if the Collyridians had thought her God , Eternal and absolutely without beginning , should not have been barely said but proved , as being in effect the very point in question ; and therefore seeing Epiphanius contents himself with saying so without proof , it is evident he never thought they would make difficulty to grant it , and consequently that they did not believe her to be God Eternal . But then again , if the Rule be good which part of your proofs depend upon , That whatever Epiphanius denies in this discourse , that the Collyridians held ( for upon that ground from — Non & Deum hanc efficeret : & non tamen Deus , you conclude they believed her God ) If I say this Rule be good , then you should be constant to it , and now that he says , — Non tamen aliter genita est praeter hominum naturam , ( she was not begotten in a different way from other men ) you should infer , that they believed not that she was God , but that she was otherwise Born and Begotten than the ordinary sort of Men. And so whereas he says before — Non tamen corpus de caelo tulit — ( her Body was not from Heaven ) you should infer , that they believed her Body came from Heaven . And again from those — Sanctum erat Mariae corpus non tamen Deus — you should collect that they though not only her person , but her Body to be God : or if these be wild and weak deductions , then you must acknowledge that I have done yours some favour in vouchsafing them a particular answer . 5. Demand . Whether in the Church of Roman , it be not an approved and perpetually practised worship of the Blessed Virgin , that Incense ( which was never anciently offered unto any , either by Iews or Gentiles , but to the true , or to a supposed true God ) and Tapers and divers other oblations , should be offered to her honour ? Answ. A practice of the Church of Rome , and approved too by those that practise it , belongs not to her , except it be a practice of the Church and approved by her . What her practice is abroad I know not ; here at home I see no such practice ; nor do I know any approbation of it , in any of her publick declarations : But this I know , that there is nothing in it unlawful or savouring of the Collyridian Superstition , to offer Wax , Tapers or any other thing at the Memories of the Blessed Virgin or any other Canonized Saint , either as means to procure their intercession , by these outward Signs of the Honour and Devotion which they bear to them ( as of Old we find by S. Austin a they did use to adorn their Tombs with Flowers ) or as monuments of their thank●ulness for some benefits received by their Intercession , as Theodoret b tells us of Eyes and Ears and Ha●ds , some of Gold and some of Silver ( hung up in the Chappels of the Saints ) that had been presented as oblations by those that had recovered health in those Members , according to their Vows made to that purpose in time of Sickness . Reply . I do not deny , but a practice may be tolerated in a Church , and not approved . As the Publick Stews are in Italy , and Usury in England : But it is one thing to Tolerate with condemnation , another to Tolerate without condemnation , nay with condemnation of those that should oppose or condemn it . And such I doubt not upon examination , you may find is this practice , general in the Church of Rome , offering Tapers to the Saints and for their honour . I say , not only to God , at the Memories of the Saints , as you would mince the matter , which yet were a groundless superstition , ( God having appointed no such Sacrifice to be offered to him under the Gospel ) but to the Saints themselves and to their honour , prove this lawful for either of those purposes you mention , either to procure their intercession or as Monuments of thankfulness for benefits obtained by it , and then you shall do something . Otherwise you will but trifle as now you have done : For instead of telling us what may be done de jure , you tell us what of Old has been done de facto . As if ab antiquo , and a principio were all one ; or as if the Church ( as we pretend ) being subject to corruption , part of this corruption might not possibly have come in S. Austins or Theodorets time ; yet this I say not , as if I would decline the Tryal of this cause by S. Austin or Theodoret ; but because I am sure you will not be Tryed by the Fathers , no not the consent of Fathers in all things : and therefore there is no reason nor equity in the World , that you should serve your selves with their Authority in any thing . But now what is it , which was done in S. Austins time , that may justifie the Practice of the Roman Church ? was there then any approved offering of Wax , Tapers and Incense , to the Queen of Heaven or any other Saint ? nil horum : you neither do nor can produce any thing out of S. Austin to this purpose . But what then is it ? Why forsooth , they were used to adorn their Tombs : Egregiam verò laudem & spolia ampla ; of Old in S. Austins time they were used to adorn their Tombs with Flowers , therefore we may offer Tapers to them . Truly an excellent Enthymeme , but I fear the concealed proposition which shold make it a Syllogism , hides its head for shame and dares not appear : yet we will for once make bold to draw it forth into light , that you may look upon it and tell us how you like it . This therefore it is . Whose soever Tombs we adorn , to them and to their honour we may offer Wax Tapers . Consider it I pray you , and if you approve it , then approve also of offering Tapers not only to Canonize Saints , but to all Christians that may have Monuments in Churches . For all their Tombs may be adorned , with more pretious and lasting Ornaments that Flowers ; yet if you had proved but this only , that in S. Austins time , they adorned the Saints Tombs with Flowers by these outward signs to procure their Intercession ; this , though not much to the purpose , had been not absolutely to delude us . But your quoted places prove not so much as this ; and yet I believe you quoted the best you could find . Nay they prove not they did adorn their Tombs with Flowers at all , much less that they did it for your pretended purpose ; such fools you think to deal with , that will take any thing for any thing . Your first place , I say , proves it not , unless out of meer courtesie we understand by ferebat , she brought to adorn S. Stephens Tomb. The Second proves it not , unless we give you leave after Altari ( without warrant from S. Austin ) to put in , S. Stephani , whereas I am yet to seek for any place in S. Austin , where he calls any Altar , the Altar of such or such a Saint , which yet I think they forbore not for the unlawfulness , but for fear of misconstruction . Then for Theodoret , he tells us indeed of Vows made , of monuments of thankfulness dedicated , for benefits obtained by the intercession of the Martyrs . But here also I fear your Conscience tells you , that you abuse us and hide your self in ambiguities . For to whom does Theodoret say these Vows were made ? to whom were these monuments of thankfulness dedicated ? What , to the Author ? or Procures of the received favours ? To God , or to the Martyrs ? If to the Martyrs , that had been something towards , though not home to your purpose : For there is a a wide difference between offering of a Creature by way of Consumption ( as was never lawfully done but to God alone , as a profession that he is the Lord of the Creature ) and erecting a permanent Monument to a Saints honour ; which I doubt not but it may lawfully be done to a living Saint , much more to the memory of a Martyr . But Theodoret in the place , hath not so much as this : Nay it is evident that these gifts he speaks of , were both Vowed and payed to God himself . His words are — Piè precatos ea consequi , &c. — that they which pray piously , obtain the things which they desire , they paying of their Vowed presents in the sign of their recovered health , doth abundantly testifie . For their Lord accepts most gratiously these presents how mean so ever . 6. Demand . Whether according to the Doctrine of the Roman Church , this may not be done lawfully by Women and Children , and men that are not Priests ? Answ. They may offer any thing by way of gifts and presents , by the Doctrine of the Roman Church ; But it is contrary to the Roman Doctrine , for any other than Priests , to offer any thing by way of Sacrifice , as the Collyridians did . Reply . Aristotle says most truly , that true Definitions ( he means I think of the terms of the conclusion to be demonstrated ) are the best principles of Science : and therefore want of them , must needs be a cause of Error and confusion in any discourse . Let me therefore here request you to set down what is a Sacrifice , and how distinguished from an oblation by way of gift or present , and you will quickly see , that if the Collyridians offering a Cake to the Blessed Virgin were indeed a Sacrifice , your offering a Taper to her , must likewise be so . For a Sacrifice is nothing else ( for ought I know ) but the oblation of any Creature by way of Consumption , to the honour of that , whatsoever it is , to which it is offered . For if you include in the definition , that this offering must be intended to the highest Lord of all : So is , as you pretend , your offering of Tapers to the Blessed Virgin , intended to God finally , though not immediately . If you say it must be directed immediatly to him ; and is , not only no lawful Sacrifice , but simply no Sacrifice unless it be so : I say you may as well require to the essence of a Sacrifice , that it be offered by a Priest , and from thence conclude , because the Collyridians were , you say , no Priests , their offering was no Sacrifice . For the object of the Action is as extrinsecal to the essence of it , as the efficient ; And therefore if the defect of a due and legitimate Offerer , cannot hinder but that an offering may be a true Sacrifice , neither will the want of a due and lawful object be any hindrance but still it may be so . Secondly , I say , this is to confound the essence of things with the lawful use of them ; in effect as if you should say , that a Knife , if misimployed , were a Knife no longer . Thirdly , it is to make it not unlawful , to offer Incense ( which yet you seem somewhat scrupulous of ) or Burnt-offerings to the Virgin Mary , or the Saints , or even to living Men , provided you know and believe and profess them to be Men and not Gods. For this once supposed , these offerings will be no longer Sacrifices , and to offer to Creatures offerings that are not Sacrifices , you say , by the Doctrine of the Roman Church is lawful : It is lastly , to deny ( which is most ridiculous ) that the Pagans did indeed Sacrifice to any of their inferiour Gods. 7. Demand . If it be said , that this worship which they give to the Blessed Virgin is not that of Latria , but that of Dulia or Hyperdulia , for that they do not esteem her God : or if it be said , that their worship to her is not finally terminated neither , but given her for her relation to Christ. I demand , whether as it is , in S. Pauls judgment , a great crime for him that knows God , not to worship him as God , so it be not as great a crime , for him that knows her not to be God , yet to worship her ( as if she were God ) with the worship which is proper and hath been alwaies appropriated to God alone , such is the worship of oblations ? Answ. The worship of oblations , as worship is taken largly for honour , and oblations for a gift or present , was never appropriate to God alone ; take worship and oblations in any higher sense , and so it is not allowed in the Church of Rome . Reply . The oblation of things by way of Consumption , is the worship I spoke of ; this is a higher matter , than that of gifts and presents , and this is allowed in the Church of Rome , to be imployed on , and directed into , ( though not terminated in ) the Virgin Mary and other Saints . 8. Demand . Whether any thing can be said for the justifying the Doctrine and practice of the Roman Church in this matter , which might not also have been as justly pretended , for the justification of the Collyridians in their opinion and practice ; seeing it was never imputed to them , that they accounted the Blessed Virgin God , or that they believed in more Gods than one . And seeing their choosing her out , rather than any other Woman or any other Creature for the object of their Devotion , shews plainly , that they gave it her for her Relation to Christ ? Answ. The Collyridians could not say this , as appears by what has been said before : As it is a most shameless slander upon Gods Church , and such as ( without repentance ) will lie heavy upon his Soul that uttered it , that the Collyridians might as justly and truly have said all this for themselves as Papists for themselves . Reply . To this I reply four things . 1. That to my last and most convincing reason , you have answered ( as much as you could I believe , but yet you have answered ) nothing ; and I am well content you should do so ; for where nothing is to be had , the King himself must lose his right . 2. That if I had thought or spoke better of the Collyridians than they deserved , yet I cannot see how this had been to slander the Church of Rome . 3. That I did not positively affirm , that the Collyridians might do so , but desired only it might be inquired into and examined , whether for the reasons alledged they might not do so . 4. And lastly , upon a thorow examination of the matter , I do now affirm , what before I did not , that the Collyridians for ought appears to the contrary , might justly and truly have said for the justification of their practice , as much , nay the very same things that the Papists do for theirs . For they might have said , we are Christians and believe the Scripture , and believe there is but one God. We offer not to the Blessed Virgin , as believing she is God , but the Mother of God : our worship of her is not absolute but relative , not terminated in her , but given to her for her Sons sake : And if our practice may be allowed , we are content to call our Oblation , not a Sacrifice , but a present : neither is there any reason , why it should be called a Sacrifice , more than the Offering and Burning a Taper to the honour of the same Virgin. All this the Collyridians might have said for themselves : and therefore I believe , you will have more cause to repent you for daubing over impiety with untempered Morter , than I shall have for slandering the Roman Church with a matter of truth . 9. Demand . Whether therefore , one of the two must not of necessity follow : that either the Ancient Church Erred in condemning the Opinion and Practice of the Collyridians as Heretical , or else that the Church of Rome Errs , in approving the same opinion , and the same practice in effect , which in them was condemned . That is , whether the Church of Rome must not be Heretical with the Collyridians , or else the Collyridians Catholicks with the Church of Rome ? Answ. It appears by the former answers , that neither did the Ancient Church Err , in condemning the opinion and practice of the Collyridians , as Heretical , nor doth the Church of Rome approve the same opinion or the same practice . Reply . The Substance of the former answer ▪ is but this . That the Papists offer to the Virgin Mary and other Saints Wax Tapers by way of gift or present , not of Sacrifice ; and to her not as to a God , but as the Mother of God : but that the Collyridians offered to her by way of Sacrifice , as to a Sovereign Power and Deity . To this I have replied and proved , that it no way appears , that the Collyridians did believe the Blessed Virgin to be a Sovereign Power and Deity , or that she was not subordinate to God. Then that their offering might be called a gift , as well as the Papists , and the Papists a Sacrifice as well as theirs ; both of them being a Consumption of a Creature in honour of the Blessed Virgin , and neither of them more than so : and therefore either the Collyridians must stand with the Church of Rome , or the Church of Rome fall with the Collyridians . It had been perhaps sufficient for me , thus to have vindicated my Assertion from contrary objections , without taking on my self the burden of proving a Negative : yet to free from all doubt the conformity of the Roman Church with the Collyridians , in this point , I think it will be necessary to shew , and that by many very probable Arguments , that Epiphanius did not impute to them the pretended Heresie of believing the Virgin Mary God : for then that other Evasion , that their oblation is a Sacrifice and the Papists is not , together with this pretence will of it self fall to the ground . Now an opinion may be imputed to a man two ways : either because he holds and maintains it expresly and formally and in terms : or because it may by a rational deduction be collected from some other opinion which he does hold : In this latter sense I deny not but Epiphanius might impute this opinion we speak of to the Collyridians , as a consequence upon their practice , which practice they esteemed lawful . But that they held it and owned it formally and in terms , this I say Epiphanius does not impute to them , which I think for these seven reasons . My first Reason is , because he could not justly do so , and therefore without evident proof we may not say he did so : for this were to be uncharitable to him , in making him uncharitable to others . Now I say he could not justly charge them with this opinion , because he was not informed of nay such opinion that they held , but only of their practice , and this practice was no sufficient proof that they held this opinion . That his information reached no further than their Practice , appears out of his own Words . I have heard ( saith he . Haeres . 78. ) another thing with great astonishment : that some being madly affected to the Blessed Virgin , endeavour to bring her in in Gods place , being mad and besides themselves : For they report that certain Women in Arabia have devised this Vanity , to have meetings , and offer a Cake to the Blessed Virgin : The same practice he sets down Haeres . 79. But that he was informed of any such opinion that they held , he has not a Word or Syllable to any such purpose ; and yet if he had been informed of any , here had been the place to set it down : which certainly writing his Book rather of Heretical opinions than practices , he would not have omitted to do ; if there had been occasion : his silence therefore is a sufficient Argument , that he was not informed of any such opinion that they held . Now that their practice was no assurance that they held this opinion , it is manifest ; because they might ground it not upon this opinion that she was God , but upon another as false , though not altogether so impious , That the Worship of Oblations was not proper to God alone . And therefore , though Epiphanius might think o● Fear that possibly they might ground their practice upon that other impious opinion , and therefore out of abundan● caution confute that also , as he doth obliquely and in a word , and once only in all his long discourse , by telling them that our Saviour called her Woman ; yet he had no ground from their practice to assure himself , that certainly they did hold so . Nay Justice and Reason and Charity would , that he should incline himself to believe , that they grounded their practice upon that other opinion , which had less impiety in it , that is , that this worship of Oblations , was not proper to God , but communicable to Creatures high in his favour . My second is , Because if Epiphanius had known , that these Collyridians held the Blessed Virgin to be a Supream Power and Deity ; this being a far greater mat●er than offering a Cake to her , should in all probability rather have given them their denomination : at least when he sets down what their Heresie was , he would have made this part of it , that they did believe so : But to the contrary , in his Anacaephaleosis , p. 130. he thus describes them . They that offer to the name of the Blessed Virgin Cakes , who are called Collyridians . And again , p. 150. They that offer to the Blessed Virgin Cakes who are called Collyridians : So to the 79th . Heresie he gives this Title , Against the Collyridians who offer to Mary : So Haeres . 78 , and 79. He sets down what he heard of them ; but no where that they held this opinion of her : I conclude therefore , that he never conceived this opinion to be a part of their Heresie , and they were no further chargeable with it , than as a probable consequent upon their practice . My third is , Because had the Collyridians held her God , they would have worshiped her all the year long , and not only once a year at a Solemn time , as Epiphanius says they did . My fourth is , Because if Epiphanius had known that they held her God , he would questionless have urged them with those Attributes that are given to God in Scripture , as Eternity , Immortallity , Impossibility , Omnipotence , &c. And shewed them , that if they believed the Scripture , they could not think of her any of those things ; if they did not , they had no reason to think of her any thing more than of an ordinary Woman . My fifth is , because had their opinion been , that the Blessed Virgin was God ; a great part of Epiphanius ' s discourse were plainly ridiculous ; both where he says only without proof , she was not a God but a Mortal Creature , which to them that held the contrary should not have been said , but proved : But especially where he speaks to this purpose ( as he does very frequently ) that the honour of Oblations was not to be given to Angels or Men , much less to Women , but only to God : for what had that been to the Collyridians , if they thought her ( as is pretended ) a Sovereign Power and Deity ? to what purpose was it for Epiphanius to ask , Quis prophetam ; What prophet ever permitted , that a Man , much less a Woman should be adored , though he be yet alive . Nor John nor Tecla , nor any other Saint . For neither shall the Old Superstition have dominion over us , that leaving the Living God , we should Adore his Creatures . To what end I say was all this , if they thought her not a Saint no● Creature , but God himself and the Lord of all ? How did this Argument touch them ? Ne Angelos quidem — He suffers not the very Angels to be adored , how much less the Daughter of Anna ? if they thought her not the Daughter of Anna , but God Eternal ; In vain had it been to say ●o them — Not to a Woman , no nor to a Man , but to God alone , is this mistery ( of Oblation ) due . So that the Angels themselves are not fit Subjects for such an honour . Or again , Let the Creature be turned to the Creator : Let shame at length compel you to worship God alone : Or lastly , tha● so often repeated — Let Mary be honoured , but the Lord only adored . For they might have answered all this in a word , saying , All this discourse sits besides the Cushion , and concerns us and our offering nothing at all . ●or we believe the Blessed Virgin to whom we offer ne●ther Man nor Woman , nor Angel , nor Creature , but a Deity . A Sixth Reason let it be this , If Epiphanius did indeed say of the Collyridians as is pretended , That they held the Virgin Mary God , and so difference their practice from the Papists : Then the Author of this Answer and Petavius in his Translation , needed not to have dictated to him what he should say , nor make him say so whether he will or no : But it is evident they do so , as of the Author of this Answer I have already shewn : and for Petavius his part , I will so present it to your view , that if you will not shut your Eyes , you shall not choose but see 〈◊〉 . First then , Haeres . ●8 . prope fin . he ( Petavius ) sets in his Margent , quidam Deum Mariam esse , crediderum ; and to countenance this with a loquuntur of his own putting in , makes them speak of her like mad Men , i. e. they said she was God : whereas in Epiphanius's Greek they say just ●othing . Secondly , To fasten the pretended Opinion on them , he translates 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Novum dogma : presuming it seem● 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 would easily be mistaken for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and therefore meanes nothing by it , but a vanity or folly . Thirdly , He translates 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Illud ; and so makes it look backward to that pretended Novum dogma of the Collyridians ; whereas it signifies there [ And ] and looks forward to their practice . Fourthly , With the help of a Colon , he stops the sense at Commentas fuisse , whereas in Epiphanius there is but a Comma , and the sense goes on without suspension . Fifthly , With an adeo ut , he brings in their action , as an effect of their former opinion ; whereas Epiphanius lays nothing to their charge but their Action only : So that whereas Epiphanius his words truly translated run thus : Another thing I have received with great astonishment , that others being mad concerning the Blessed Virgin , have and do go about to bring her in , in the place of God , being mad , I say , and besides themselves : For they report that certain Women in Arabia have brought this vanity of offering a Cake to her name . Petavius makes them thus — Not without admiration we have heard another thing , that some in these things that concern the most holy Virgin have proceeded to that degree of madness , that they would obtrude her upon us for a God , and speak of her as madmen : For they report that certain Women in Arabia , have invented that new Opinion : so that to the Virgins name and honour , they offer by way of sacrifice a Cake or wreath of Bread. Again in the same Haeres . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , he translates advantageously — per mulieres sacrificia facere . Whereas 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is more general than sacrificia facere , and signifies sacris operari , or sacros ritus peragere . Again , in the same place , whereas Epiphanius says simply and absolutely — Let no man offer to her name , he makes it , Let no man offer sacrifice to her name ; as if you might lawfully offer any thing provided you do not call it a sacrifice . So again Haeres . 79. besides his putting cunningly — ipsa ●uit — which before we took notice of ; he makes no scruple to put in Dogma and Sacrificium , wheresoever it may be for his purpose . Epiphanius his title to this Heresie is , Against the Collyridians who offer to Mary — P●tavius puts in — Sacrifice . Again in the same page , before D. he puts in his own illo d●gmate , and whereas Epiphanius says — in all this , he makes it , in all this Opinion . Pag. 1061. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , he translates , ●●is womanish Opinion , whereas 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 though perhaps it may signifie a th●ught , or act of thinking , yet I believe it never signifies an Opinion which we hold . Ibid. at B. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 — this — he renders this Opinion . Pag. 1064. at C. Nor that we should offer to her name , simply and absolutely : he makes it , — Nor that we should offer sacr●fice to her name . So many times ●s he fain to corrupt , and translate him partially , lest in condemning the Collyridians , he might seem to have involved the practice of the Roman Church in the same Condemnation . My Seventh and last Reason is this . Had Epiphanius known that the Collyridians held the Virgin Mary to be a Sovereign power and Deity , then he could not have doubted , whether this their offering was to her or to God for her : whereof yet he seems doubtful and not fully resolved , as his own words intimate , Haeres . 79. ad fin . Quam multa &c. How many things may be objected against this Heresie ? for idle Women either worshipping the Blessed Virgin , offer unto ●●r a Cake , or else they take upon them to offer for her this foresaid ridiculous oblation . Now both are foolish and from the Devil . These Arguments I suppose do abundantly demonstrate to any man not viel'd with prejudice , that Epiphanius imputed not to the Collyridians the Heresie of believing the Virgin Mary God : and if they did not think her God , there is then no reason imaginable why their oblation of a Cake , should not be thought a Present , as well as the Papists offering a Taper , or that the Papists offering a Taper , should not be thought a Sacrifice , as well as their offering a Cake ; and seeing this was the difference pretended between them , this being vanished there remains none at all ; So that my first Conclusion stands yet firm ; that either the Ancient Church erred in condemning the Collyridians , or the present errs in approving and practising the same worship . An ADVERTISEMENT . The Reader when he meets with the Phrase Catholick Doctrin , in the two following Discourses , must remember , that it does not signifie Articles of Faith determined in any General Councils , which might be looked upon as the Faith of the whole Church ; but the Current and Common Opinion of the Age , which obtained in it without any known opposition and contradiction . Neither need this be wondred at , since they are about matters far removed from the Common Faith of Christians , and having no necessary influence upon good life and manners , whatsoever necessity , by mistake of some Scriptures , might be put upon them . IV. An Argument drawn from the admitting Infants to the Eucharist , as without which they could not be saved , against the Churches Infallibility . THE Condition without the performance whereof no man can be admitted to the Communion of the Church of Rome , is this ; that he believe firmly and without doubting , whatsoever the Church requires him ●o believe : More distinctly and particularly thus : He must believe all that to be divine Revelation which that Church teaches to be such ; as the Doctrin of the T●inity , the Hypostatical union of two natures in the person of Christ. The procession of the Holy Ghost from the Father and the Son : the Doctrin of Transubstantiation , and such like . Whatsoever that Church teaches to be necessary , he must believe to be necessary . As Baptism for Infants ; Faith in Christ , for those that are Capable of Faith ; Penance for those that have committed mortal sin after Baptism , &c. Whatsoever that Church declares expedient and profitable , he must believe to be expedient and profitable : as Monastical Life : Prayer to Saints : Prayer for the Dead : going on Pilgrimages : The use of Pardons : Veneration of holy Images and Reliques : Latin Service where the people understand it not : Communicating the Laity in one kind and such like . Whatsoever that Church holdeth lawful , he must believe lawful : As to Marry : to make distinction of Meats , as if some were clean and others unclean : to flie in time of Persecution : for them that serve at the Altar , to live by the Altar : to testifie a truth by Oath , when a lawful Magistrate shall require it : to possess Riches , &c. Now is it impossible that any man should certainly believe any thing ; unless either it be evident of ●t self , or he have some certain reason ( at least some sup●osed certa●n reason ) and infallible ground for his belief . Now the Doctrins which the Church of Rome teacheth , it is evident and undeniable that they are not evident of themselves , neither evidently true nor evidently credible . He therefore that will believe them , must of necessity have some certain and infallible ground whereon to build his belief of them . There is no other ground for a Mans belief of them , especially in many points , but only an assurance of the Infallibility of the Church of Rome . No man can be assured that that Church is infallible and cannot err , whereof he may be assured that she hath erred , unless she had some new promise of divine assistance , which might for the future secure her from danger of erring ; but the Church of Rome pretends to none such . Nothing is more certain , than that that Church hath erred , which hath believed and taught irreconcileable Contradictions , one whereof must of necessity be an Error . That the R●ceiving the Sacrament of the Eucharist is necessary for Infants , and that the receiving thereof is not necessary for them : That it is the will of God , that the Church should administer the Sacrament to them ; and that it is not the will of God that the Church should do so ; are manifest and irreconcileable Contradictions : Supposing only , ( that which is most evident ) that the Eucharist is the same thing , of the same vertue and efficacy now , as it was in the primitive Church : That Infants are the same things they were , have as much need , are capable of as much benefit by the Eucharist , now as then : As subject to irreverent carriages , then as now . And lastly , that the present Church is as much bound to provide for the spiritual good of Infants , as the Ancient Church was : I say these things supposed , the propositions before set down are plain and irreconcileable Contradictions : whereof the present Roman Church doth hold the Negative , and the Ancient Church of Rome did hold the Affirmative ; and therefore it is evident , that either the present Church doth err , in holding something not necessary , which is so ; or that the Ancient Church did err , in holding something necessary , which was not so . For the Negative Proposition , viz. That the Eucharist is not necessary for Infants ; that it is the Doctrin of the present Church of Rome it is most manifest . 1. From the disuse and abolition and prohibition of the contrary Ancient practice . For if the Church did conceive it necessary for them , either simply for their salvation , or else for their increase or confirmation in grace , and advancement to a higher degree of glory ( unless she could supply some other way their damage in this thing , which evidently she cannot ) what an uncharitable sacriledge is it , to debar and defraud them of the necessary means of their so great spiritual benefit ? especially seeing the administration of it might be so ordered , that irreverent casualties might easily be prevented : which yet should they fall out against the Churches and Pastors intention , certainly could not offend God , and in reason should not offend man. Or if the Church do believe , that upon such a vain fear of irreverence ( which we see moved not the Ancient Church at all ) she may lawfully forbid such a general , perpetual and necessary charity , certainly herein she commits a far greater error than the former . Secondly , from the Council of Trents Anathema , denounced on all that hol● the contrary , in these words . If any man say that the receiving of the Eucharist , is necessary for little children , before they come to years of discretion , let him be Anathema . Concil . Trid. Sess. 21. de communione parvulorum , Can. 4. Now for the Affirmative part of the Contradiction , to make it evident that that was the Doctrin of the Ancient Church ; I will prove it , First , from the general practice of the Ancient Church for several Ages . Secondly , by the direct and formal Testimonies of the Fathers of those times . Thirdly , by the confession of the most learned Antiquaries of the Roman Church . My First Argument I form thus . If to communicate Infants was the general practice of the Ancient Church for many Ages ; then certainly the Church then believed , that the Eucharist was necessary for them , and very available for their Spiritual benefit : But it is certain , that the Communicating of Infants was the general practice of the Church for many Ages : Therefore the Church of those times thought it necessary for them . To deny the consequence of the proposition , is to cha●ge the Church with extream folly , wilful superstition , and perpetual profanation of the Blessed Sacrament . As for the Assumption , it is fully confirmed by Clemens Rom. Constit. Apost . l. 3. c. 20. Dionysins Areopagita de Eccles. Hi●rarch . cap. ult . S. Cyprian and a Council of African Bishops with him , Epist. 59. ad Fidum ; and in his Treatise de Lapsis p. 137. Edit . Pamel . Paulinus Bishop of Nola in Italy , An. 353. in Epist. 12. ad Senem ; out of Ordo Romanus , cited by Alevinus S. Bedes Scholar and Master to Charlemain in his Book de divinis officiis cap. de Sab. Sancto Pasc. Gennadius Massiliensis de Eccles. dogmatibus c. 52. Co●ncil . Toletanum 2. Can. 11. It continued in the Western Church , unto the days of L●wes the Debonair , witness Cardinal Perron des passages de S. Austin p. 100. Some footsteps of it remained there in the time of Hugo de S. Victore , as you may see lib. 1. de Sacram. & Coerem . cap. 20. It was the practice of the Church of the Armenians in Waldensis his time , as he relates out of Guido the Carmelite , Tom. 2. de Sacr. c. 91. de erroribus Armenorum . It is still in force in the Church of the Abyssines , witness Franc. Alvarez . Hist. Aethiop . c. 22. & Thomas a Iesu de procuranda salute omnium gentium . It has cotinued without any interruption in the Greek Church , unto this present Age , as may be evidently gathered out of Lyranus in c. 6. Iohn . Arcudius lib. 1. c. 14. & lib. 3. c. 40. de concord . Eccles. Orient . & Occident . in Sacram. administratione ; Card. Perron des passages de S. Austin . p. 100. where he also assures us of the Primitive Church in general , that she gave Infants the Eucharist as soon as they were baptized : and that the custome of giving this Sacrament to little Infants the Church then observed : and before p. 21. That in those Ages it was always given to Infants together with Baptism . The same is likewise acknowledged by Contzen in Iohn 6. ver . 54. and by Thomas a Iesu de proc . salute omnium gentium . So that this matter of the practice of the Ancient Church is sufficiently cleared . Seeing therefore the Ancient Church did use this Custom , and could have no other ground for it , but their belief that this Sacrament was necessary for Infants , it follows necessarily , that the Church then did believe it necessary . But deductions , though never so evident , are superfluous and may be set aside , where there is such abundance of direct and formal Authentical Testimonies ; whereof some speak in Thesi , of the necessity of the Eucharist for all men , others in Hypothesi , of the necessity of it for Infants . My Second Argument , from the Testimonies of the Fathers of those times I form thus . That Doctrin , in the affirmative whereof the most eminent Fathers of the ancient Church agree , and which none of their contemporaries have opposed or condemned , ought to be taken for the Catholick Doctrin of the Church of those times . But the most eminent Fathers of the Ancient Church agree in the Affirmation of this Doctrin , that the Eucharist is necessary for Infants ; and none of their contemporaries have opposed or condemned it . Ergo , it ought to be taken for the Catholick Doctrin of the Church of their times . The Major of this Syllogism is delivered and fully proved by Card. Perron , in his Letter to Casaubon 5. obs . and is indeed so reasonable a postulate , that none but a contentious spirit can reject it . For confirmation of the Minor , I will alledge , first , their sentences , which in Thesi affirm the Eucharist to be generally necessary for all , and therefore for Infants : and then their Suffrages , who in Hypothesi avouch the necessity of it for Infants . The most pregnant Testimonies of the first rank are these : Of Iraene●s lib. 4. cont . Heres . c. 34. where he makes our Union to Christ by the Eucharist , the foundation of the hope of our resurrection , in these words . As the bread of Earth , after the Invocation of God , is now not common bread , but the Eucharist , consisting of two things an earthly and an heavenly : so our bodies receiving the Eucharis● , are not now corruptible ( for ever ) but have hope of resurrection . The like he hath , lib. 5. c. 2. And hence in probabi●ity it is , that the Nicene C●uncil stiled this Sacrament , Symbolum resurrectionis , the pledge of our Resurrection . And Ignatius Ep. ad Eph. Pharmacum Immortalitatis , the Medicine of Immortality . Cyril . Alex. lib. 4. in Joan. They shall never partake , nor so much as tast , the life of holiness and happiness , which receive not the Son in the mystical Benediction . Cyril . lib. 10. in Joan. c. 13. & lib. 11. c. 27. This corruptible nature of our body , could not otherwise be brought to life and immortality , unless this body of natural life were conjoyned unto it . The very same things saith Gregory Nyssen . Orat. Catech. c. 37. And that they both speak of our conjunction with Christ by the Eucharist , the Antecedents and Consequents do fully manifest , and it is a thing confessed by learned Catholicks . Cyprian de coena Domini , and Tertullian de resur . carnis , speak to the same purpose : But I have not their Books by me , and therefore cannot set down their words . S. Chrysostom , Hom. 47. in Joh ▪ on these words , ●isi manducaveritis , has many pregnant and plain speeches to our purpose . As , the words here spoken are very terrible : verily , saith he , if a man eat not my flesh , and drink not my blood , he hath no life in him ; for whereas they said before , this could not be done , he shews it not only not impossible , but also very necessary . And a little after ; he often iterates his speech concerning the holy mysteries , shewing the necessity of the thing , and that by all means it must be done . And again , what means that which he says , my flesh is meat indeed , and my blood is drink indeed ; either that this is the true meat that saves the soul ; or to confirm them in the faith of what he had spoken , that they should not think he spoke Enigmatically , or parabolically , but knew that by all means they must eat his body . But most clear and unanswerable is that place lib. 3. de Sacerdotio , where he saith , If a man cannot enter into the Kingdom of Heaven unless he be born again of water and the holy spirit ; and if he which eats not the flesh of our Lord and drinks not his blood , is cast out of eternal life : And all these things cannot be done by any other , but only by those holy hands , the hands , I say of the Priest , how then without their help can any man , either avoid the fire of hell , or obtain the Crowns laid up for us . Theophylact. in 6. Joan. when therefore we ●ear , that unless we eat the flesh of the Son of man , we cannot have life , we must have faith without doubting in the receiving of the divine mysteries , and never inquire how : for the natural man , that is he which followeth humane , that is , natural reasons , receives not the things which are above nature and spiritua● ; as al●o he understands not the spiritual meat of the flesh of our Lord , which they that receive not , shall not be partakers of ete●nal life , as n●t receiving Iesus , who is the true li●e . S. Austin de pec . mer. & Remis . c. 24. Very well do the puny Christians call Baptism nothing else but salvation ; and the Sacrament of Christs Bo●y n●thing else but Life ; from whence s●●uld this be , but as I believ● from the Ancient and Ap●stolical Tradition , by which th●s Doctrin is implanted into the Churches 〈◊〉 Christ , that but by Baptism and the participation of the Lord● Table , not any man can attain , neither to the Kingdom of God , nor to salvation and eternal life . Now we are taught by the learned Cardinal ; that when the Fathers speak , not as Doctors , but as wit●esses , of the Customs of the Church of their times ; and d● not say , I believe this should be so holden , or so understood , or so observed , but that the Church from one end of the earth to ●he other believes it so , or observes it so ; then we no longer hold what they say , for a thing said by them , but as a thing said by the whole Church ; and principally when it is in points , whereof they could not be ignorant , either because of the condition of the things , as in matters of fact ; or because of the sufficiency of the persons : and in this case , we argue no more upon their words probably , as we do when they speak in the quality of particular Doctors , but we argue thereupon demonstratively . I subsume . But S. Austin the sufficientest pe●son which the Church of his time had , speaking of a point , wherein he could not be ignorant ; says not that I belie●e the E●charist to be nece●sary to salvation ; but the Churches of Christ believe so , and have received this doctri● from Apostolical Tra●ition : Therefore I argue upon his words not probably , but demonstratively , that this was the Catholi●●● doctrin of the Church of his time . And thus much for the Thesis , That the Eucharist was held generally necessary for all . Now for the Hypothesis ; That the Eucharist was held necessary for Infants in particular . Witnesses hereof are S. Cyprian , Pope Innocentius I. and Eusebius Emissenus , with S. Austin together with the Author of the Book intituled Hypognostica . Cyprian indeed does not in terms affirm it , but we have a very clear intimation of it in his Epistle to Fidus. For whereas he and a Council of Bishops together with him , had ordered , that Infants might be baptiz●d and sacrificed , that is , communicated before the eighth day , though that were the day appointed for Circumcision by the old Law. There he sets down this as the reason of their Decree , that the mercy and grace of God , was to be denied to no man. Pope Innocent the first , ( in Ep. ad Epis. Cone . Milev . quae est inter August . 93. ) concludes against the Pelagians ; that Infants could not attain eternal life without Baptism ; because without Baptism they were uncapable of the Eucharist , and without the Eucharist could not have eternal life . His words are , but that which your Fraternity affirms them to Preach , that Infants without the grace of Baptism may have the rewards of eternal life , is certainly most foolish ; for unless they eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood ; they shall have no life in them . Now that this sense which I have given his words , is indeed the true sense of them , and that his judgment upon the point was as I have said ; it is acknowledged by Maldonate in Ioan. 6. v. 54. by Binius upon the Councils Tom. 1. p. 6. 24. by Sanctesius , Repet . 6. c. 7. and it is affirmed by S. Austin who was his Contemporary , held correspondence by Letters with him , and therefore in all probability could not be ignorant of his meaning . I say he affirms it , as a matter out of Question , Epist. 106. and Cont. Iulian. lib. 1. c. 4. where he tells that Pelagius in denying this , did dispute contra sedis Apostolicae authoritatem ; against the authority of the Sea Apostolick ; and after , but if they yield to the Sea Apostolick , or rather to the Master himself and Lord of the Apostles , who says , that they shall not have life in them , unless they eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood , which none may do but those that are baptized ; then at length they will confess , that Infants not baptized cannot have life . Now I suppose no man will doubt , but the belief of the Apostolick Sea ; was then ( as S. Austin assures us l. 1. cont . Iul. c. 4. ) the belief of the Church of Rome , taking it for a particular Church : and then it will presently follow , that either other Churches do not think themselves bound in conformity of belief with the Roman Church ▪ notwithstanding Irenaus his — necesse est ad hanc Eccles●iam , omnem convenire Ecclesiam : or that this was then the Doctrin of the Catholick Church . For Eusebius Emissenus I cannot quote any particular proof out of him : but his belief in this point is acknowledged by Sanctes . Repet . 6. c. 7. Likewise for S. Austin , the same Sanctesius and Binius , and Maldonate , either not mindful or not regardful of the Anathema of the Council of Trent , acknowledge ( ●n the places above quoted ) that he was also of the same belief : and indeed he professeth it so plainly and so frequently , that he must be a meer stranger to him that knows it not , and very impudent that denies it . Eucharistian● infantibus pute● necessariam Augustinus , say also the Divines of Lovaine , in their Index to their Edition of S. Austin : and they refer us in their Index only to Tom. 2. pag. 185. that is , to the 106. Epist. ( the words whereof I have already quoted to shew the meaning of Innocentius ) and to Tom. 7. pag. 282. that is , lib. 1. de pec . Mer. & remis . c. 20. where his words are ; Let then all doubt be taken away : Let us hear our Lord I say , saying not of the Sacrament of Holy Baptism , but of the Sacrament of his Table ( to which non● may lawfully come , but be which has been baptized ) unless you eat the flesh of the Son and drink his blood , you shall have no life in you ; what seek we any further ? what can be answered hereunto ? What , will any man dare to say , that this appertains not to little Children , and that without the participation of his body and blood , they may have Life ? &c. with much more to the same effect . Which places are indeed so plain and pregnant for that purpose , that I believe they thought it needless to add more : otherwise had they pleased they night have furnished their Index with many more referrences to this point ; as de Pec. Mer. & Rem . l. 1. c. 24. where of Baptism and the Eucharist he tells us , that Salus & vita eterna sine his frustra promittitur parvulis . The same he has Cont. 2. Epist. Pelag , ad Bonifacium l. 1. c. 22. which yet by Gratian de Consec . D. 3. c. Nulli . and by Tho. Aquinas p. 3. q. 3. art . 9. ad tertiam is strangely corrupted and made to say the contrary , and l. 4. c. 4. the same Cont. Iulian. l. 1. c. 4. and l. 3. c. 11. & 12. Cont. Pelag. & Celest. l. 2. c. 8. de Praedest . Sanctorum ad Prosp. & Hilar. l. 1. cap. 14. Neither doth he retract or contradict this opinion any where , nor mitigate any one of his sentences touching this matter , in his Book of Retractations . Sanctesius indeed tells us , that he seems to have departed from his Opinion , in his works against the Donatists . But I would he had shewed some probable reason to make it seem so to others ; which seeing he does not , we have reason to take time to believe him . For as touching the place mentioned by Beda in 1. ad Corinth . 10. as taken out of a Sermon of S. Austins , ad infantes ad Altare . Besides that it is very strange S. Austin should make a Sermon to Infants ; and that there is no such Sermon extant in his works ; nor any memory of any such in Possidius , S. Austins Scholars Catalogue of his works , nor in his Book of Retractaitons : setting aside all this , I say First , That it is no way certain that he speaks there of Infants , seeing in propriety of speech ( as S. Austin himself teacheth us Ep. 23 ) Infants were not Fideles , of whom S. Austin in that supposed Sermon speaks . Secondly , Admit he does speak of Infants , where he assures us , that in Baptism every faithful man is made partaker of Christs body and blood , and that he shall not be alienated from the benefit of the Bread and Cup , although he depart this life , before he eat of that Bread and drink of that Cup. All this concludes no more , but that the actual participation of the Eucharist , is not a means simply necessary to attain salvation , so that no impossibility shall exeuse the failing of it : Whereas all that I aim at is but this , that in the judgment of the Ancient Church , it was believed necessary , in case of possibility ; necessary , not in actu , but in voto Ecclesiae : not necessary to salvation simply , but necessary for the increase of grace and glory : And therefore , Lastly , though not necessary by necessity of means , for Infants to receive it ; yet necessary by necessity of precepts for the Church to give it . The last witness I promised , was the Author of the work against the Pelagians called Hypognostica , who ( l. 5. c. 5. ) ask the Pelagians , Seeing he himself hath said , unless you eat the flesh , &c. How dare you promise eternal life to little Children , not regenerate of water and the Holy Ghost ; not having eaten his flesh , nor drank his blood . And a little after , Behold then , he that is not Baptized , and he that is destitute of the Bread and Cup of life , is separated from the Kingdom of Heaven . To the same purpose he speaks l. 6. c. 6. But it is superfluous to recite his words , for either this is enough or nothing . The third kind of proof , whereby I undertook to shew the belief of the ancient Church in this point , was the Consession of the learnedest Writers and best verst in the Church of Rome . Who , what the Council of Trent forbids under Anathema , that any man should say of any ancie●t Father , are not yet afraid , nor make no scruple , to say it in plain terms of the whole Church for many Ages together , viz. That she believed the Eucharist necessary for Infants . So doth Maldonate in Ioan. 6. Mitto Augustini & Innocentii sententiam ( quae etiam viguit in Ecclesia per sexcentes annos ) Eucharistiam etiam Infantibus necessariam . I say nothing says he , of Austins and Innocentius his opinion , that the Eucharist was necessary even for Infants , which doctrin flourished in the Church for 600. years . The same almost in terms hath Binius , in his Notes on the Councils , pag. 624. Hinc constat Innocentii sententia ( quae sexcentos circiter annos viguit in Ecclesiâ , quam Augustinus sectatus est ) Eucharistiam etiam infantibus necessariam fuisse . Lastly , That treasury of Antiquity Cardinal Perron , though he speaks not so home as the rest do , yet he says enough for my purpose : des passages de S. August . c. 10. p. 101. The Custom of giving the Eucharist to Infants the Church then observed as profitable . This I say is enough for my purpose . For what more contradictious , than the Eucharist being the same without alteration to Infants being the same without alteration , should then be profitable and now unprofitable : then all things considered expedient to be used , if not necessary , and therefore commanded : And now , though there be no variety in the case , all things considered not necessary , nor expedient , and therefore forbidden . The Issue of all this Discourse , for ought I can see , must be this : That either both parts of a Contradiction must be true , and consequently nothing can be false , seeing that which contradicteth truth is not so : or else , that the Ancient Church did err in believing something expedient which was not so ; ( and if so , why may not the present Church err , in thinking Latin Service , and Communion in one kind expedient : ) or that the present Church doth err , in thinking something not expedient , which is so . And if so , why may she not err , in thinking Communicating the Laity in both kinds , and Service in vulgar Languages , not expedient . V. An Argument drawn from the Doctrin of the Millenaries , against Infallibility . THE Doctrin of the Millenaries was , That before the worlds end , Christ should reign upon earth for a thousand years , and that the Saints should live under him in all holiness and happiness . That this Doctrin is by the present Roman Church held false and Heretical , I think no man will deny . That the same Doctrin , was by the Church of the next Age after the Apostles held true and Catholick I prove by these two Reasons . The first Reason , Whatsoever doctrin is believed and taught by the most eminent Fathers of any Age of the Church , and by none of their contemporaries opposed or condemned , that is to be esteemed the Catholick Doctrin of the Church of those times . But the Doctrin of the Millenaries was believed and taught by the eminent Fathers of the Age next after the Apostles , and by none of that Age opposed or condemned . Therefore it was the Catholick Doctrin of the Church of those times . The Proposition of this Syllogism is Cardinal Perrons rule , ( in his Epistle to Casaubon , 5. observ . ) And is indeed one of the main pillars , upon which the great Fabrick of his Answer to King Iames doth s●and , and with which it cannot but fall ; and therefore I will spend no time in the proof of it . But the Assumption thus I prove . That Doctrin which was believed and taught by Papias Bishop of Hierap●lis , the disciple of the Apostles disciples ( according to Eusebius ) who lived in the times of the Apostles , saith he , by Iustin Martyr , Doctor of the Church and Martyr : by Melito Bishop of Sardis , who had the gift of Prophesie , witness Tert. and whom Bellarmine acknowledgeth a Saint . By S. Irenaeus Bishop of Lyons and Martyr ; and was not opposed and condemned by any one Doctor of the Church of those times : That Doctrine was believed and taught by the most Eminent Fathers of that Age , next to the Apostles , and opposed by none . But the former part of the Proposition is true , Ergo , the Latter is also true . The Major of this Syllogism and the latter part of the Minor , I suppose will need no proof , with them that consider , that these here mentioned were equal in number to all the other Ecclesiastical Writers of that Age , of whom there is any memory remaining ; and in weight and worth infinitely beyond them : they were Athenagoras , Theophilus Antiochenus , Egesippus and Hippolitus : of whose contradiction to this Doctrine there is not extant , neither in their works , nor in story , any Print or Footstep : which if they or any of them had opposed , it had been impossible , considering the Ecclesiastical Story of their time is Written by the professed Enemies of the Millinaries Doctrine ; who could they have found any thing in the monuments of Antiquity to have put in the Ballance against Iustin Martyr and Irenaeus , no doubt would not have buried it in silence : which yet they do , neither vouching for their opinion any one of more Antiquity than Dionysius Alexandrinus , who lived , saith Eusebius , nostra aetate , [ in our Age ] but certainly in the latter part of the third Century . For Tatianus because an Heretick I reckon not in this number . And if any man say that before his fall he wrote many Books ; I say , it is true ; but withal would have it remembred , that he was Iustin Martyrs Scholar , and therefore , in all probability of his Masters Faith , rather than against it , all that is extant of him one way or other is but this in S. Hierome , de Script . Eccles. Justini Martyris sectator suit . Now for the other part of the Minor , that the forementioned Fathers did believe and teach this Doctrine . And first for Papias that he taught it , it is confessed by Eusebius the Enemy of this Doctrine ( Lib. 3. I●ist . Eccles. c. 33. ) in these words , — Other things besides the same Author ( Papias ) declares , that they came to him as it were by unwritten Tradition , wherein he affirms that after the Resurrection of all Flesh from the Dead , there shall be a Kingdom of Christ continued and established for a thousand years upon Earth , after a humane and corporeal manner . The same is confessed by S. Hierome , another Enemy to this opinion , ( descript . Eccles. S. ●9 . ) Papias the Auditor of John Bishop of Hieropolis is said to have taught the Iudaical Tradition of a thousand years , whom Irenaeus and Apollinarius followed . And in his preface upon the Commentaries of Victorinus upon the Apocalypse , thus he writes , — before him Papias Bishop of Hieropolis and Nepos Bishop in the parts of Egypt taught as Victorinus does touching the Kingdom of the thousand years . The same is testified by Irenaeus ( lib. 5. cont . Her. c. 33. ) where having at large set forth this Doctrine , he confirms it by the Authority of Papias in these words . Papias also the Auditor of John , the familiar friend of Policarpus an Ancient man , hath testified by writing these things in the fourth of his Books , for he hath written five . And concerning Papias thus much . That Iustin Martyr was of the same belief , it is confessed by Sixtus Senensis ( Biblioth . Stae . l. 6. An. 347. ) by Feverdentius in his premonition before the five last Chapters of the 5th . Book of Irenaeus . By Pamelius ●n Antidoto ad Tertul. parad . paradox . 14. That S. M●lito Bishop of Sardis held the same Doctrine is confessed by Pamelius in the same place ; and thereupon it is that Gennadius Massiliensis in his Book de Eccles. dogmatibus , calls the followers of this opinion Melitani ; as the same Pamelius testifies in his Notes upon that fragment of Tertullian de Spe fidelium . Irenaeus his Faith in this point is likewise confessed by Eusebius , in the place before quoted in these words . He ( Papias ) was the Author of the like Error to most of the Writers of the Church , who alledged the Antiquity of the Man for a defence of their side , as to Irenaeus and whosoever else seemed to be of the same opinion with him . By S. Hierome in the place above cited de script . Eccles. S. 29. Again in Lib. Ezek. 11. in these words . For neither do we expect from Heaven a Golden Hierusalem ( according to the Iewish tales which they call Duterossis ) which also many of our own have followed : Especially Tertullian in his Book de spe ●idelium ; and Lactantius in his seventh Book of Institutions , and the frequent expositions of Victorinus Pictavionensis : and of late Severus in his Dialogue which he calls Gallus : and to name the Greeks and to joyn together the first and last , Irenaeus and Apollinarius . Where we see he acknowledges Irenaeus to be of this opinion ; but that he was the first that held it , I believe that that is more a Christian untruth than Irenaeus his opinion a Judaical Fable . For he himself acknowledges in the place above cited , that Irenaeus followed Papias ; and it is certain and confessed that Iustin Martyr believed it long before him : and Irenaeus himself derives it from — Presbyteri qui Johannem discipulum Domini viderunt ; from Priests which saw Iohn the Disciple of the Lord. Lastly , by Pamelius , Sixtus Senensis , and Faverdentius in the places above quoted . Seeing therefore it is certain , even to the confession of the Adversaries , that Papias , Iustin Martyr , Meleto and Irenaeus , the most considerable and eminent men of their Age , did believe and teach this Doctrine ; and seeing it has been proved as evidently as a thing of this nature can be , that none of their contemporaries opposed or condemned it ; It remains according to Cardinal Perrons first rule ; that this is to be esteemed the Doctrine of the Church of that Age. My second Reason I form thus . Whatsoever Doctrine is taught by the Fathers of any Age , not as Doctors but as witnesses of the Tradition of the Church , ( that is , not as their own opinion , but as the Doctrine of the Church of their times ) that is undoubtedly to be so esteemed ; especially if none contradicted them in it . But the Fathers above cited teach this Doctrine , not as their own private opinion , but as the Christian Tradition , and as the Doctrine of the Church , neither did any contradict them in it . Ergo , it is undoubtedly to be so esteemed . The Major of this Syllogism , is Cardinal Perrons second Rule and way of finding out the Doctrine of the Ancient Church in any Age : and if it be not a sure Rule , farewel the use of all Antiquity . And for the Minor , there will be little doub● of it , to him that considers , that Papias professes himself to have received this Doctrine by unwritten Tradition , though not from the Apostles themselves immediately , yet from their Scholars , as appears by Eusebius in the forecited third Book 33. Chapter . That Irenaeus grounding it upon evident Scripture , professes that he learnt it , ( whether mediately or immediately I cannot tell ) from ( a ) Presbyteri qui Johannem Discipulum Domini viderunt . Priests or Elders who saw Iohn the Lords Disciple , and heard of him what our Lord taught of those times ( of the thousand years ) and also , as he says after , from Papias the Auditor of Iohn the Chamber-fellow of Polycarpus , an Ancient man who recorded it in writing . ( a ) Faverdentius his Note upon this place is very Notable . Hinc apparet ( saith he ) from hence it appears that Irenaeus neither first invented this opinion , nor held it as proper to himself , but got this blot and blemish from certain Fathers . Papias I suppose and some other inglorious fellows , the familiar Friends of Irenaeus , are here intended . I hope then if the Fathers which lived with the Apostles had their blots and blemishes ; it is no such horrid Crime for Calvin and the Century writers to impute the same to their great Grandchildren . Aetas parent●m pejor avis progeniem fert vitiosiorem . But yet these inglorious Disciples of the Apostles , though perhaps not so learned as Faverdentius , were yet certainly so honest , as not to invent lies and deliver them as Apostolick Tradition ; or if they were not , what confidence can we place in any other unwritten Tradition . Lastly , that Iustin Martyr grounds it upon plan Prophecies of the Old Testament , and express words of the New : he professeth , That he , and all other Christ●ans of a right belief in all things , believe it ; joyns them who believe it not , with them who deny the Resurrection ; or else says , that none denied this , but the same who de●ied the Resurrection ; and that indeed they were called Christians , but in deed and Truth were none . Whosoever , I say , considers these things will easily grant , that they held it not as their own opinion , but as the Doctrine of the Church and the Faith of Christians . Hereupon I conclude , whatsoever they held , not as their private opinion , but as the Faith of the Church , that was the Faith of the Church of their time : But this Doctrine they held , not as their private opinion , but as the Faith of the Church . Ergo , it was and is to be esteemed the Faith of the Church . Trypho Do ye confess that before ye expect the coming of Christ , this place Hierusalem shall be again restored , and that your People shall be congregated , and rejoyce together with Christ , and the Patriarchs and the Prophets , &c. Iustin Martyr . I have confessed to you before , that both I and many others do believe , as you well know , that this shall be ; but that many again , who are ( not ) of the pure and holy opinion of Christians , do not acknowledge this , I have also signified unto you : For I have declared unto you , that some called Christians , but being indeed Atheists and impious Hereticks , do generally teach blasphemous and Atheistical and foolish things : but that you might know that I speak not this to you only , I will make a Book as near as I can of these our disputations , where I will profess in writing that which I say before you ; for I resolve to follow not men , and the Doctrines of men , but God and the Doctrine of God. For although you chance to meet with some that are called Christians , which do not confess this , but dar● to Blaspheme the God of Abraham , the God of Isaac , and the God of Iacob , which also say there is no Resurrection of the Dead , but that as soon as they die their Souls are received into Heaven , do not ye yet think them Christians : as neither if a man consider rightly will he account the Sadducees and other Sectaries and Hereticks , as the Genistae and the Meristae and Galileans , and Pharisees and Hellenians and Baptists and other such to be Iews ; but only that they are called Iews , and the Children of Abraham , and such as with their lips confess God ( as God himself cries out ) but have their Hearts far from him . But I and all Christians that in all things believe aright , both know that there shall be a Resurrection of the Flesh , and a thousand years in Hierusalem restored and adorned and inlarged ; according as the Prophets , Ezekiel and Esay and others do testifie : for thus saith Isaiah of the time of this thousand years . For there shall be a new Heaven and a new Earth , and they shall not rem●mber the former , &c. And after . — A certain man amongst us whose name was Iohn , one of the Twelve Apostles of Christ , in that Revelation which was exhibited unto him , hath foretold● That they which believe ou● Christ shall live in Hierusalem a thousand years , and that after , the Universal and everlasting Resurrection and Judgment shall be . I have presumed in the beginning of Iustin Martyrs answer to substitute ( not ) instead of ( also ) because I am confident , that either by chance , or the fraud of some ill-willers to the Millinaries opinion ; the place has been corrupted , and ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) turned into ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) ( not ) into ( al●o . ) For if we retain the usual reading — But that many who are also of the pure and holy opinion of Christians do not acknowledge this , I have also signified unto you ; then must we conclude , that Iustin Martyr himself did believe the opinion of them which denied the thousand years , to be the pure and holy opinion of Christians : and if so , why did he not himself believe it ? nay how could he but believe it to be true , professing it ( as he does if the place be right ) to be the pure and holy opinion of Christians : for how a false Doctrine can be the pure and holy opinion of Christians , what Christian can conceive ? or if it may be so , how can the contrary avoid the being untrue , unholy and not the opinion of Christians ? Again , if we read the place thus — That many who are also of the pure and holy opinion of Christians , do not acknowledge this , I have also signified : certainly there will be neither sense nor reason , neither coherence nor consequence in the words following — For I have ●old you of many called Christians , but being indeed Atheists and Hereticks , that they altogether teach blasphemous and impious and foolish things : for how is this a confirmation or reason of , or any way pertinent unto what went before ? if there he speak of none but such as were , purae piaeque Christianorum sententiae , of the pure and holy opinion of Christians . And therefore to disguise this inconsequence , the Translator has thought fit to make use of a false Translation , and instead of — for I have told you , to make it , — besides I have told you of many , &c. Again , if Iustin Martyr had thought this the pure and holy opinion of Christians , or them good and holy Christians that held it ; why does he rank them with them that denyed the Resurrection ? Why does he say afterward — Although you chance to meet with some that are called Christians which do not confess this , do not ye think them Christians . Lastly , what sense is there in saying as he does — I and all Christians that are of a right belief in all things , believe the Doctrine of the thousand years , and that the Scriptures both of the Old and New Testament teach it , and yet say — That many of the pure and holy opinion of Christians do not believe it ? Upon these reasons I suppose it is evident , that the place has been corrupted , and it is to be corrected according as I have corrected it , by substituting 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the place of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( not ) instead of ( also . ) Neither need any man think strange that this misfortune of the change of a Syllable should befal this place , who considers that in this place Iustin Martyr tells us that he had said the same things before , whereas nothing to this purpose appears now in him . And that in Victorinus comment on the Revelation , wherein , ( by S. Hieroms acknowledgment ) this Doctrine was strongly maintained , there now appears nothing at all for it , but rather against it . And now from the place thus restored , these Observations offer themselves unto us . 1. That Iustin Martyr speaks not as a Doctor , but as a witness of the Doctrine of the Church of his time . I ( saith he ) and all Christians that are of a right belief in all things hold this : And therefore from hence according to Cardinal Perrons Rule , we are to conclude , not probably but demonstratively , that this was the Doctrine of the Church of that time . 2. That they held it as a necessary matter , so far as to hold them no Christians that held the Contrary : though you chance to meet with some called Christians that do not confess this , but dare to Blaspheme the God of Abraham , Isaac and Jacob , &c. Yet do not ye think them Christians : Now if Bellarmines Rule be true , that Councils then determine any thing as matters of Faith , when they pronounce them Hereticks that hold the Contra●y ; then sure Iustin Martyr held this Doctrine as a matter of Faith , se●ing he pronounceth them no Christians , that contradic● it . 3. That the Doctrine is grounded upon t●e Scripture of the Old and New Testament and the Revelation of S. Iohn , and that by a Doctor and Martyr , of the Church , and such a one as was converted to Christianity within 30 years after the Death of S. Iohn , when in all probability there were many alive , that had heard him expound his own words and teach this Doctrine : and if probabilities will not be admitted , this is certain out of the most authentical records of the Church , that Papias the Disciple of the Apostles Disciples taught it the Church , professing that he had received it from them that learned it from the Apostles : and if after all this , the Church of those Times might Err in a Doctrine so clearly derived and authentically delivered , how without extream impudence can any Church in after times , pretend to Infallibility . The Millinaries Doctrine was over-born , by imputing to them that which they held not : by abrogating the Authority of S. Iohn's Revelation , as some did : or by derogating from it , as others ; ascribing it not to S. Iohn the Apostle , but to some other Iohn , they know not who : which — Dionysius the first known adversary of this doctrine and his followers ; against the Tradition of Irenaeus , Iustin Martyr , and all the Fathers their Antecessors : by calling it a Judaical opinion and yet allowing it as probable by corrupting the Authors for it , as Iustin , Vi●●orinus , Se●erus . VI. A Letter relating to the same Subject . SIR , I Pray remember , that if a consent of Fathers either constitute or declare a Truth to be necessary , or shew the opinion of the Church of their Time ; then that opinion of the Jesuits , concerning Predestination upon prescience ( which had no opposer before S. Austin ) must be so , and the contrary Heretical of the Dominicans ; and the present Church differs from the Ancient , in not esteeming of it as they did . Secondly , I pray remember , that if the Fathers be infallibl● , ( when they speak as witnesses of Tradition ) to shew the opinion of the Church of their Time , then the opinion of the Chiliasts ( which now is a Heresie in the Church of Rome ) was once Tradition in the Opinion of the Church . Thirdly , Since S. Austin had an opinion , that of whatsoever no beginning was known , that came from the Apostles , many Fathers might say things to be Tradition upon that ground only ; but of this Opinion of the Chiliasts , one of the ancientest Fathers Irenaeus says not onely that it was Tradition , but sets down Christs own words when he taught it , and the pedigree of the opinion from Christ to Iohn his Disciple ; from him to several Priest ; ( whereof Papias was one who put it in writing ) and so downwards ; which can be shewn from no other Father , for no other opinion , either controverted , or uncontroverted . Fourthly , That if Papias either by his own error , or a desire to deceive , could cozen the Fathers of the purest age in this , why not also in other things ? why not in twenty as well as one , why not twenty others as well as he . Fi●thly , That if the Fathers could be cozened , how could general Councils scape ? who you say make Tradition one of their Rules , which can only be known from the Fathers ? S●xthly , If they object , how could errors come in , and no beginning of them known ? I pray remember to ask them the same Question concerning the Millena●ies , which lasted uncontradicted , until Dionysius Alexan●rinus two hundred and fifty years after Christ ; and if they tell you that Papias was the first beginner , look in Iren●us , and he will tell you the contrary . ( Loco citato l. 5. c. 33. ) Seventhly , Remember , that if I ought not to condemn the Church of Rome out of Scripture , because my interpretation may deceive me ; then they ought not to build their Infallibility upon it ( and less upon her own word ) because theirs may deceive them : unless the same thing may be a wall when you lean upon it , and a bulrus● when we do . Eighthly , Remember that they cannot say , they trust not their Interpretation in this , but a consent of Fathers ; because the Fathers are not said to be infallible , but as they tell the Opinion of the Church of their time , which is infallible : therefore they must first prove out of Scripture that she is infallible , or else she ( who is her self the subject of the Question ) cannot be allowed till then to give a verdict for her self . Ninthly , Remember the Roman Church claim ; no Notes of the Church , but what agree with the Grecian too ( as Antiquity , Succession , Miracles . &c. ) but onely Communion with the Pope and Splendor : both which made for the Arrians in Liberius his time ; and it were a hard Case , that because the Greeks are poor upon Earth , they should be shut out of Heaven . Tenthly , Remember that if we have an Infallible way , we have no use ( at least no necessity ) of an Infallible Guide ; for if we may be saved by following the Scripture as near as we can ( though we err ) it is as good as any Interpreter to keep unity in charity ( which is only needful ) though not in opinion : and this cannot be ridiculous , because they say , if any man misinterpret the Council of Trent , it shall not damn him ; and why ( without more ado ) may not the same be said of Scripture ? VII . An Argument against the Infallibility of the present Church of Rome , taken from the Contradictions in your Doctrin of Transubstantiation . Chillingworth . THat Church is not infallible , which teacheth Contradictions : But the Church of Rome teacheth Contradictions . Therefore the Church of Rome is not infallible . Mr. Daniel . I deny the Minor. Chilling . That Church teacheth Contradictions , which teacheth such a Doctrin as contains Contradictions : But the Church of Rome teacheth such a Doctrin : Therefore the Church of Rome teacheth Contradictions . Mr. Daniel . I deny the Minor. Chilling . The Doctrin of Transubstantion contains Contradictions : But the Church of Rome teacheth the Doctrin of Transubstantiation : Therefore the Church of Rome teacheth such a Doctrin as contains Contradictions . Mr. Dan. I deny the Major . Chilling . That the same thing at the same time should have the true figure of a mans body , and should not have the true figure of a mans body , is a Contradiction : But in the Doctrin of Transubstantiation it is taught , that the same thing , ( viz. our Saviour present in the Sacrament ) has the true figure of a mans body , and has not the true figure of a mans body at the same time ; therefore the Doctrin of Transubstantiation contains Contradictions . Mr. Dan. The Major , though not having all rules required to a contradiction ( as boys in Logick know ) yet let it pass . Chilling . Boys in Logick know no more conditions required to a Contradiction , but that the same thing should be affirmed and denied of the same thing at the same time . For my meaning was , that that should not be accounted the same thing , which was considered after divers manners . Mr. Dan. I deny the Minor of your syllogism . Chilling . I prove it , according to the several parts of it : And first , for the first part . He must have the Figure of a mans body in the Eucharist , who is there wit●out any real alteration or difference from the natural body of a man : But our Saviour , according to the Romish Doctrin of Transubstantiation , is in the Sacrament without any real alteration or difference from the natural body of a man : Therefore according to this Doctrin he must there have the figure of a mans body . To the second part , that he must not have the figure of a mans body in the Sacrament , according to this Doctrin , thus I prove it . He must not have the figure of a mans body in the Eucharist , which must not have extension there : But our Saviours ●ody , according to the Doctrin of Transubstantiation , must not have extension there ; Therefore , according to this doctrin , he must not have the figure of a mans body there . The Major of this Syllogism I proved , because the figure of a mans body could not be without extension . The Minor I proved thus ; That must not have extension in the Eucharist , whose every part is together in one and the same point : But according to this Doctrin , every part of our Saviours body must be here in one and the same point : therefore here it must not have extension . Mr. Dan. Answered , by distinguishing the Major of the first Syllogism , and said ; that he must not have the true figure of a mans body , according to the reason of a figure taken in its essential consideration , which is to have positionem partium sic & sic extra partes ; but not the accidental consideration , which is in ordine ad locum . And this answer he applied for the solution of the Minor , saying thus , Our Saviour is there without any real alteration intrinsecal , but not extrinsecal ; for ho is not changed in order to himself , but in order to place : Or otherwise , he is not altered in his continual existence , which is only modus essentiae and inseparable even by divine power , though altered in modo existendi , which is situation and required to figure taken in order to place . Chill . Against this it was replied by Chillingworth : That the distinction of a mans body as considered in it self , and as considered in reference to place , is vain , and no solution of the Argument : And thus he proved it ; If it be impossible , that any thing should have several parts one out of another in order , and reference of each to other , without having these parts in several places ; then the distinction is vain : But it is impossible , that any thing should have several parts one out of another , without having these parts in several places ; Therefore the distinction is vain . The Major of this Syllogism he took for granted . The Minor he proved thus : Whatsoever body is in the proper place of another body , must of necessity be in that very body , by possessing the demensions of it : therefore , whatsoever hath several parts one out of the other , must of necessity have them one out of the place of the other ; and consequently in several places . For illustration of this Argument he said ; If my head and belly and thighs and legs be all in the very same place ; of necessity my head must be in my belly , and my belly in my thighs , and my thighs in my legs , and all of them in my feet , and my feet in all of them ; and therefore if my head be out of my belly , it must be out of the place where my belly is ; and if it be not out of the place where my belly is , it is not out of my belly but in it . Again , to shew that according to the Doctrin of Transubstantiation , our Saviours body in the Eucharist hath not the several parts of it out of one another , he disputed thus : Wheresoever there is a body having several parts one out of the other , there must be some middle parts severing the extreme parts : But here , according to this Doctrin , the extreme parts are not severed , but altogether in the same point ; Therefore here our Saviours Body cannot have parts one out of other . Mr. Dan. To all this ( for want of a better Answer ) gave only this . Let all Scholars peruse these . After , upon better consideration , he wrote by the side of the last Syllogism this : Quoad entitatem verum est , non quoad locum , that is , according to entity it is true , but not according to place . And to ( Let all Scholars peruse these ) he caused this to be added ; And weigh whether there is any new matter , worth a new Answer . Chillingworth . Replyed , That to say the extreme parts of a body are severed by the middle parts according to their entity , but not according to place , is ridiculous . His reasons are first , Because severing of things is nothing else , but putting or keeping them in several places , as every silly woman knows ; and therefore to say , they are severed but not according to place , is as if you should say , They are heated , but not according to heat ; they are cooled , but not according to cold : Indeed is it to say , they are ●evered , but not severed . VIII . An account of what moved the Author to turn a Papist , with his own Confutation of the Arguments that perswaded him thereto . I Reconciled myself to the Church of Rome , because I thought my self to have sufficient reason to believe , that there was and must be always in the World some Church , that could not err : and consequently seeing all other Churches disclaimed this priviledge of not being subject to error ; the Church of Rome must be that Church which cannot err . I was put into doubt of this way which I had chosen , by D. Stapleton and others ; who limit the Churches freedom from Error to things necessary only , and such as without which the Church can be a Church no longer , but grantted it subject to error in things that were not necessary : Hereupon considering that most of the differences between Protestants and Roman Catholicks ; were not touching things necessary , but only profitable or lawful ; I concluded , that I had not sufficient ground to believe the Roman Church either could not or did not err in any thing , and therefore no ground to be a Roman Catholick . Against this again I was perswaded , that it was not sufficient to believe the Church to be an infallible believer of all doctrins necessary ; but it must also be granted an infallible teacher of what is necessary ; that is , that we must believe not only that the Church teacheth all things necessary , but that all is necessary to be believed , which the Church teacheth to be so : in effect , that the Church is our Guide in the way to Heaven . Now to believe that the Church was an infallible Guide , and to be believed in all things which she requires us to believe , I was induced : First , because there was nothing that could reasonably contest with the Church about this Office , but the Scripture : and that the Scripture was this Guide , I was willing to believe , but that I saw not how it could be made good , without depending upon the Churches authority . 1. That Scripture is the Word of God. 2. That the Scripture is a perfect rule of our duty . 3. That the Scripture is so plain in those things that concern our duty , that whosoever desires and endeavors to find the will of God , there shall either find it , or at least not dangerously mistake it . Secondly , I was drawn to this belief , because I conceived that it was evident , out of the Epistle to the Ephesians , that there must be unto the worlds end a Succession of Pastors , by adhering to whom , men might be kept from wavering in matters of faith , and from being carried up and down with every wind of false doctrin . That no Succession of Pastors could guard their adherents from danger of error , if themselves were subject unto error , either in teaching that to be necessary which is not so , or denying that to be necessary which is so : and therefore , That there was and must be some Succession of Pastors , which was an infallible guide in the way to Heaven ; and which should not possibly teach any thing to be necessary which was not so ; nor any thing not necessary which was so : upon this ground I concluded , that seeing there must be such a Succession of Pastors , as was an infallible guide ; and there was no other ( but that of the Church of Rome ) even by the confession of all other Societies of Pastors in the world ; that therefore that Succession of Pastors is that infallible Guide of Faith which all men must follow . Upon these grounds I thought it necessary for my salvation , to believe the Roman Church , in all that she thought to be , and proposed as necessary . Against these Arguments it hath been demonstrated unto me ; and First against the first . That the reason why we are to believe the Scripture to be the word of God , neither is nor can be the Authority of the present Church of Rome , which cannot make good her Authority any other way , but by pretence of Scripture : and therefore stands not unto Scripture ( no not in respect of us ) in the relation of a Foundation to a building , but of a b●ilding to a Foundation , doth not support Scripture , but is s●pported by it . But the general consent of Christians of all Nations and Ages , a far greater company than that of the Church of Rome , and delivering universally the Scripture for the word of God , is the ordinary external reason why we believe it : whereunto the Testimonies of the Jews , enemies of Christ , add no small moment for the Authority of some part of it . That whatsoever stood upon the same ground of Universal Tradition with Scripture , might justly challenge belief , as well as Scripture : but that no Doctrin not written in Scripture , could justly pretend to as fu●l Tradition as the Scripture , and therefore we had no reason to believe it with that degree of faith , wherewith we believe the Scripture . That it is unreasonable to think , that he that ●eads the Scripture , and uses all means appointed for this purpose , with an earnest desire and with no other end , bu● to find the will of God and obey it , if he mistake the meaning of some doubtful places , and fall unwillingly into some errors , unto which no vice or passion betrays him , and is willing to hear reason from any man that will undertake to shew him his error : I say , that it is unreasonable to think , that a God of goodness will impute such an error to such a man. Against the second it was demonstrated unto me , that the place I built on so confidently , was no Argument at all for the Infallibility of the Succession of Pastors in the Roman Church , but a very strong Argument against it . First , no Argument for it ; because it is not certain , nor can ever be proved , that S. Paul speaks there of any succession ; Ephes. 4. 11 , 12 , 13. For let that be granted which is desired , that in the 13. ver . by [ until we all meet ] is meant , until all the Children of God meet in the Unity of Faith ; that is , unto the Worlds end : yet it is not said there , that he gave Apostles and Prophets , &c. which should continue , &c. until we all meet , by connecting the 13. ver . to the 11. But he gave ( then upon his Ascension and miraculously endowed ) Apostles and Prophets , &c. for the work of the ministry , for the Consummation of the Saints , for the Edification of the Body of Christ , until we all meet , that is , if you will , unto the Worlds end . Neither is there any incongruity , but that the Apostles and Prophets , &c. which lived then , may in good sense be said , now at this time and ever hereafter to do those things which they are said to do : For who can deny but S. Paul the Apostle and Doctor of the Gentiles , and S. Iohn the Evangelist and Prophet , do at this very time ( by their writings , though not by their persons ) do the work of the ministry , consummate the Saints , and Edifie the Body of Christ. Secondly , it cannot be shewn or proved from hence , that there is or was to be any such succession : because S. Paul here tells us only , that he gave such in the time past , not that he promised such in the time to come . Thirdly , it is evident , that God promised no such succession , because it is not certain that he hath made good any such promise ; for who is so impudent as to pretend , that there are now , and have been in all Ages since Christ , some Apostles and some Prophets and some Evangelists and some Pastors and Teachers : Especially such as he here speaks of , that is , endowed with such gifts as Christ gave upon his Ascension ; of which he speaks in the 8 ver . saying ; He led Captivity Captive , and gave gifts unto men . And that those gifts were — Men endowed with extraordinary Power and Supernatural gifts — it is apparent , because these Words , and he gave some Apostles , some Prophets , &c. are added by way of explication and illustration of that which was said before — and he gave gifts unto Men : And if any man except hereunto , that though the Apostles and Prophets and Evangelists were extraordinary and for the Plantation of the Gospel , ●et Pastors were ordinary and for continuance : I answer , it is true , some Pastors are ordinary and for continuance , but not such as are here spoken of : not such as are endowed with the strange and heavenly gifts , which Christ gave not only to the Apostles and Prophets and Evangelists , ●ut to the inferior Pastors and Doctors of his Church , at the first Plantation of it : And therefore S. Paul in the 1st . to the Corinth . 12. 28. ( to which place we are referred by the Margent of the Vulgar Translation , for the explication of this , ) places this gift of teaching amongs● , and prefers it before many other miraculous gifts of the Holy Ghost : Pastors there are still in the Church , but not such as Titus and Timothy and Apollos and Barnabas : not such as can justly pretend to immediate inspiration and ●llumination of the Holy Ghost : And therefore seeing there neither are nor have been for many Ages in the Church , such Apostles and Prophets , &c. as here are spoken of , it is certain he promised none ; or otherwise we must blasphemously charge him with breach of his promise . Secondly , I answer , that if by dedit he gave , be meant promisit , he promised for ever ; then all were promised and all should have continued . If by dedit be not meant promisit , then he promised none such , nor may we expect any such by vertue of , or warrant from this Text that is here alledged : And thus much for the first Assumpt which was , that the place was no Argument for an inf●llible succession in the Church of Rome . Now for the second , That it is a strong Argument against it , thus I make it good . The Apostles and Prophets and Evangelists and Pastors , which our Saviour gave upon his Ascension , were given by him that they might Consummate the Saints , do the work of the Ministry , Edifie the Body of Christ , until we all come into the Unity of Faith , that we be not like Children wavering and carried up and down with every wind of Doctrine . The Apostles and Prophets , &c. that then were , do not now in their own persons and by oral instruction do the work of the Ministry , to the intent we may be kept from wavering and being carried up and down with every wind of Doctrine : therefore they do this some other way : Now there is no other way by which they can do it , but by their writings ; and therefore by their writings they do it : therefore by their writings and believing of them we are to be kept from wavering in matters of Faith : therefore the Scriptures of the Apostles and Prophets and Evangelists are our Guides . Therefore not the Church of Rome . FINIS . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A32849-e570 a How by the whole Church , when himself was part of it , and communicated still with divers other parts of it ? b What not to them who know and believe him to be unjustly Excommunicated ? Notes for div A32849-e8310 a Vt in nomen Virginis Collyridem quandam Sacrificarent . Epiph. haer . 78. Offerunt panem in nomen Mariae , omnes autem pane participa●t — b De● enim ab aeterno nulla tenus mulier Sacrisicavit . Idem haeres . 79. c Diaconissarum ordo est in Ecclesia , sed non ad Sacrificandum , nam neque Diaconis conc●editum est , ut aliquod m●sterium persiciant . Id. Ibid. a vid. sup . littera ( a ) b Mortuis cultum divinum praestantes . Id. Ibid. And again : Revera virgo erat honorata , sed non adadorationem nobis data sed ipsa adorans Deum . And again : Non ut adoretur Virgo , nec ut Deum hanc efficeret , &c. Sit in honore Maria ; Pater & Filius & Spiritus S. adoretur , Mariam nemo adoret . Deo debetur hoc mysterium Id. Ibid. c Pro Deo hanc introducere statuerant . Id. Ibid. Revera Sanctum erat Mariae corpus non tamen Deus . And again . Mulierem eam appellavit Joh. 2. Velut prophetans : & ne aliqui nimium admirati Sanctum , in hanc haeresin dilabantur . And again . Non tamen aliter genita est praeter hominis naturam , sed sicut omnes ex semine 〈◊〉 & utero Mulieris . Id. Ibid. a Ad aquas ●bilotanas , Episcopo offerente Projecte , re●quias martyris gloriosiss●mi Stephani , ad ejus memoriam veniebat magne multitudinis concursus & cocursus . Ibi caeca mulier , ut ad episcopum portantem pignora Sacra duceretur , ora●it : Flores qu●● ferebat dedit ; recepit , oculis admovit , protenus vidit . August . de Civit. Dei. l. 22. c. 8. abscedens aliquid de Alta●i ( S. Stephani ) storum quod ●●currit , tu●it . Idem . Ibid. &c. b Theodoretus de curandis affec● Graec. l. 8. Notes for div A32849-e18510 Faverdent● Edit . Iren. p. 497.