An answer to the considerations which obliged Peter Manby, late Dean of London-Derry in Ireland, as he pretends, to embrace what he calls, the Catholick religion by William King ... King, William, 1650-1729. 1687 Approx. 236 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 56 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2004-11 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A47432 Wing K523 ESTC R966 13419630 ocm 13419630 99496 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A47432) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 99496) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 460:19) An answer to the considerations which obliged Peter Manby, late Dean of London-Derry in Ireland, as he pretends, to embrace what he calls, the Catholick religion by William King ... King, William, 1650-1729. [8], 104 p. Printed for R. Taylor ..., London : 1687. Reproduction of original in Huntington Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. 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Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Manby, Peter, d. 1697. Catholic Church -- Controversial literature. Ireland -- Religion -- 17th century. 2004-08 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-08 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2004-09 Judith Siefring Sampled and proofread 2004-09 Judith Siefring Text and markup reviewed and edited 2004-10 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion Licensed , June the 1st . 1687. AN ANSWER TO THE CONSIDERATIONS Which obliged PETER MANBY , Late Dean of London-Derry in Ireland , ( As he pretends ) to EMBRACE , what he calls , THE Catholick Religion . By William King , Chancellor of St. Patricks , Dublin . Isaiah 1. 2. — I have nourished , and brought up Children , and they have rebelled against me . LONDON , Printed for R. Taylor , near Stationers-Hall . 1687. THE CONTENTS . Chap. 1. The Examination of his Preface . Sect. 1. THE Introduction . Sect. 2. Whether Mr. M. really desired the Information ? Sect. 3. Catholick Church defined . S. 4. Answer to his first Question , What Church meant by the Catholick ? S. 5. To his second Question , Whether the Church of England ? S. 6. To his third Question , With what other Church she Communicates ? S. 7. To his fourth , Whether the variety of all Protestants be the Catholick Church ? S. 8. To his fifth Question , Whether we and Lutherans are the same in all material points ? S. 9. Our Church visible before Edward VI. S. 11. His unfair dealing with Dr. Heylin , and Dr. Burnet . Chap. 2. About Mission . Sect. 1. His Letter to his Grace the Lord Primate examined . S. 2. The Questions concerning Mission reduced to five Heads . S. 3. The validity of our Orders . S. 5. Answer to his first Question , What Priesthood had the first Reformers , but what they received from Roman Catholick Bishops ? S. 6. To his second , Who Authorized them to teach their Protestant Doctrine , & c ? S. 7. To his third , Whether Cranmer did condemn the Church of Rome , and by what Authority ? S. 8. To his fourth , Whether a Presbyterian can preach against the Church of England by virtue of Orders received from her ? S. 9. To his fifth , Whether an Act of Parliament in France , &c. be not as good an Authority for Popery there , as in England for Protestancy ? S. 10. Mr. M's Objections against the first Reformers considered . S. 11. His Objections against Cranmer in particular Answered , to the end Chap. 3. About Confession . Sect. 1. Whether We in our Church differ about Confession ? S. 2. The Doctrine of our Church in this matter , whence Confession appears not to be wanting . S. 3. His Argument proposed out of St. John 1. 9. compared with John 20. 23. S. 4. The words if we Confess , John 1. Ep. 1. 9. shewn not to refer to Auricular Confession . S. 5. Gods faithfulness and Justice mentioned John 1. Ep. 1. 9. do not respect particularly the Promise , John 20. 23. S. 6. If they did , yet this wou'd not prove Auricular Confession . S. 7. & 8. His second Argument from the practice of all Ages and Churches considered , and shewn to be false . S. 9. His third Argument from the inconveniency that attends the want of Confession . S. 11. His fourth Argument from the interest of the Priest. Chap. 4. About the place of the Catholick Church . Sect. 1. Answer to his third Difficulty , Where is the Catholick Church ? S. 2. Whether extant before Cranmer ? S. 3. Whether Cranmer believed himself a Member thereof ? S. 4 , 5. The Reformation justifiable without charging the Church of Rome with Idolatry . S. 6 , 7 , 8. All Idolatry not inconsistent with the Being of a Church . S. 9. The weakness of his Argument brought to prove it . Chap. 5. An Answer to the heap of Particulars thrown together at the latter end of his Paper . Sect. 1. & 2. His endeavour to vindicate his Church in her Devotions . S. 3. Whether all elevated and judicious . S. 4. His first Answer taken from the Benedicite to Protestant Objections against Prayers in the Mass directed to Saints . S. 5. The second from the Angels being Favourites . S. 6. The third from their knowing our Affairs . S. 7. His Excuses for the Mass being in an unknown Tongue . S. 8. His Vindication of the Worship of Images , from the Council of Trents forbidding Superstition S. 9. From Kneeling at the Sacrament . S. 10. From Presbyterian Objections against our Practice . S. 11. His Excuse for the ill Practices and Opinions of some Roman Catholicks . S. 12. His recommendation of his Church from her Books of Devotion . S. 13. From the Devotion of her People . S. 14. From the Unity of her Members , that Unity shewed not to be so great as pretended , from the Schisms that have been in her about Ordinations . S. 15. From the Disputes about Confirmation . S. 16. About Confession . S. 17. What he objects against the Church of England , first from her stealing her Communion-Service . S. 18. Secondly , from her want of a due Foundation . S. 19. For trusting Reason too far . S. 20. And contradicting the visible Church . S. 21. Thirdly , Not yielding a due Submission . S. 22. Due Submission shewn to be paid by her to the universal Church , and taught to be due to particular Churches . S. 23. Mr. M's Transcribing and Englishing Calvin examined together with his Inference . S. 24. Mr. M's Submission to the Catholick and the particular Church whereof he was a Member , examined . AN ANSWER TO THE CONSIDERATIONS Which obliged Peter Manby Dean of Derry to embrace the Communion of the Romish Church . CHAP. 1. To the Preface . § . 1. PEter Manby Dean of Derry has chosen this time , ( for what reasons he knows best ) to declare himself of the Communion of the Church of Rome . Whoever doth so in the present circumstances , must run the hazard of being censured , for having too great a value for the Favours and worldly Advantages that some late Converts have met with . In order therefore to satisfie the World that he had some other Reasons besides this prospect ( I suppose ) he published this Pamphlet that I now answer . Whoever reads it , will find so little Method or Connexion between the parts of it , that he must conclude the Writer was never acquainted with close thinking ; and that the loosness and immethodicalness of it , is the greatest trouble lyes on the Answerer : the truth is , it sticks chiesly on Formalities and Preliminaries , which no Advocate ever insisted much upon , that was confident of the merits of his Cause : and therefore to answer it can hardly be worth any ones labour . I confess I should have thought so too , if I had not found some of his own party boasting of it ; and I do now assure him that I do not Answer it out of any apprehension I have of its seducing any of ours ; and that it had been answered long ago , if I had been possessed with any such Suspicion . It consists of three parts , and each of these do in effect contain the same things , and except a man give a distinct Answer to each , he may pretend that part is unanswered . I shall therefore follow him in his own method , and consider ▪ first , his Preface to the Reader : secondly , the Pamphlet it self : and thirdly , his Latine Queries , and beg the Readers Pardon , if he find the Answers sometimes repeated , when Mr. M. repeats the questions so often . § 2. His Preface has huddled together some Questions and Dilemma's concerning the Catholick Church , and raised some doubts , concerning which he professes himself to be at a loss , and so desires information — Thus pag. 1. When a Protestant rehearses this Article of his Creed ; I believe one Catholick Church , I would fain understand what Church he means ? Again , this makes Protestancy so wandring and uncertain a thing , that I for my part cannot understand it : Pag. 3. He shall find me pressing for an Answer to such Questions as these . Pag ▪ 1. of the Pamphlet , There are three points wherein I could never satisfie my self ; a little after , I could never find any satisfactory Answer to this Question . Pag. 2. pronouncing the Church of Rome Idolatrous , I would fain know by what Authority ? — A little after , by whose Authority — I cannot tell . Pag. 3 there was no Answer to be had . — A little after , I cannot find . l. 9. I do not well understand . l. 15. I could never understand . Pag. 4. I would know . Pag. 7. l. 13 I confess my dullness understands not . — Pag 8. line . 16. I would fain know . line 25. Which Answer I confess I do not understand — pag. 11. line 15. I desire to be informed . l. the last . I cannot imagine . Pag. 12. line 15. I cannot understand . Now , if he was so very ignorant as he makes himself , and so desirous of information , he ought to have consulted some of his Spiritual Guides on these heads , and not trusted altogether to his own Judgement ; or else he ought in all reason to have printed these Questions , before he resolv'd them unanswerable : for how did he know , but some body might have had more to say to them than he was aware of , and have given him satisfaction ? If he had designed to be counted either a prudent or honest man , this had been his method ; but I have enquired and cannot find that ever he proposed them seriously to one Divine , or applyed himself to any in this weighty affair , before he deserted our Communion ; and therefore though perhaps he may be ignorant enough , yet I think it apparent that he only pretends want of understanding , and desire of information ; or that he has very little care of his Soul , or of what Communion he is . § 3. To give his Questions proposed in his Preface a distinct Answer , I shall first rank them in method . Concerning therefore the Catholick Church , he asks , 1. What Church we mean ? 2. Whether the Church of England alone as established by Law , or as in Communion with other Churches ? 3. With what other Church under Heaven doth the Church of England communicate in Sacraments and Liturgy ? 4. Whether the variety of Protestants be the Catholick Church , since they want her Essential mark called Unity ? 5. Whether we and the Lutherans are of the same Church ; the Lutherans holding a Corporal Presence in the Sacrament , and we denying it ? All these we have in the first page of his Preface , and all proceed from the same root , even ignorance of what is meant by the Catholick Church : If Mr. M. had designed to deal ingenuously and like a Scholar that desired to clear things , ( which ought to be the design of every honest writer , ) he ought to have laid down a definition of the Catholick Church , and then examined to whom it belonged , and shewn the Church as established here by Law to be no part of it ; for , till that be done , all that is said is banter ; for we mean not the same thing by the Church . I never saw any Romanist take this method , and therefore I have always believed that they rather designed to gain Proselytes by confounding their Heads , than by clear Reason and Information ; I will therefore tell him what I mean by the one Catholick Church in the Creed ; and if he do not like the description , let him mend it . The Catholick Church is the whole body of men , professing the Religion of Christ , and living under their lawful Spiritual Governours . This body of Christians is one , because it has , according to St. Paul Ephes. 4. 5. one Lord , one Faith , one Baptism , one God , and according to Saint Augustine , many Churches are one Church , because there is one Faith , one Hope , one Charity , one Expectation ; and lastly , one heavenly Country ; now if he had been as much concerned to understand this a right , as he would have his Dear Reader , he might easily have seen who it is that fancy to themselves a Church divided from all the rest of the world , by breaking the bonds of Charity , and coyning new Articles , distinct from those of the Catholick Faith , which we received from Christ and his Apostles ; and that the Answers to his Questions are very easie . § . 4. For to the First , when he would know what Church we mean when we rehearse that Article of our Creed , I believe one holy Catholick and Apostolick Church ? the Answer is , that we mean , not any particular Church , nor any party of Christians of any one denomination ; but all those that hold the Catholick Faith , and live under their lawful Pastors : while they have those marks I have laid down from the Scripture and St. Augustine , they are still of one Communion , though by the peevishness and mistake of their Governours , they may be engaged in Quarrels ; as the Church of Rome was in St. Cyprians time with the Church of Africa , about the allowing the Baptism of Hereticks ; and the Quarrel came to that height , that when the Africans came to Rome , not only the peace of the Church and Communion was denyed them , but even the common kindness of Hospitality ; as we may see in Firmilians Epistle to Saint Cyprian , Ep. 75. This being supposed , it is no hard matter to find out the parts of this Catholick Church where-ever one comes , it is only Examining whether any Church hold the Catholick Faith , and whether they live under their lawful Governours ; and so far as they do so , it is our duty to joyn with them , as true parts thereof . Whereas he who with the Donatists , will unchurch three parts of four of the Christian World ; or fancy a Church divided from all others , though as sound in Faith and as obedient to their Governours as possible ; is like for ever to be tossed too and fro upon the unstable waters of Schism , and dwindles the Church into a Faction ; and this gives a full Answer . § 5. To his second Question , whether we mean by the Catholick Church , the Church of England alone , or the Church of England as in Communion with other Churches ; for by this it appears , that the Churches of England and Ireland are no more the Catholick Church , than the English Seas are the whole Ocean ; but they are a part thereof , because they hold the Catholick Faith intirely ▪ and are governed by their lawful and Catholick Bishops , who have not had for many years , so much as a Rival appearing to contest their Title and Succession . § 6. But then he urges in the third place , with what other Church doth the Church of England Communicate in Sacraments and Liturgy ? To which I answer , Unity of Liturgy is no part of Communion of Churches ; let him shew , if he can , that the Catholick Church ever had any such Unity ; Unity in Faith , Sacraments & in worshipping God she has with all true Churches on the face of the Earth , insomuch that there is not one Article in her Creeds , nor one Petition in her Liturgy , that even Mr. M. can condemn ; nor is there any Office wanting , in which the Ancient Liturgies agreed ; and then let him shew why all Churches hold not Communion with her ? and who is guilty of the breach thereof ? If he say that we hold indeed the Catholick Faith , but not intire , let him make it appear : but if he cannot prove that we deny any part of this Catholick Faith , he acquits us from Heresie , and owns our union in Faith with the Catholick Church . To prove this defect was chiefly incumbent on him , but he has not so much as attempted it . He has indeed made an attempt against the lawfulness of our Governours that is , to prove us Schismaticks ; but how unsuccessfully we shall see by and by . § . 7. In the mean time to his fourth Demand , Whether by the one Catholick Church be understood the variety of all Protestants , since they want her essential mark , even Unity ? I answer , that neither all Protestants are Catholick members of the Church , nor are Protestants only ; those amongst Protestants , that embrace the Catholick Faith , and make no Separation from their lawful Governours , and that live in unity of Faith and charity with their neighbour Churches are Catholick members , and have that Unity , which is essential to the Catholick Church ; but these are not to be confounded with Presbyterians , Independants , Anabaptists , Fifth Monarchy-men , Quakers , &c. since these have separated themselves from their lawful Governours , as much as Mr. M. himself ; though their Crime be less than his : as he is less guilty that makes a Rebellion , than he who joyns with a Forreigner to enslave his native Countrey . But he has an Excuse even for these , that he has heard out of the mouths of some Protestants , that God had his people amongst all sorts of Protestants ; and what if some charitable people say with Saint Augustine ; that they who defend their Opinion , though false and perverse without pertinaciousness , especially when they were not the Authors thereof , through their own confidence and presum 〈…〉 received it from their seduced and erring Parents , and seek industriously the truth , and are ready to embrace it when they find it ; are not at all to be reckoned Hereticks ? is he sure that there are not some such amongst every sort of Protestants , nay of Christians ? I am sure , the passage he quotes out of the second Paper mentioned by him , is no Confutation of this ; nor any thing to the purpose , except he hath a mind to prove the Words true by his own example : For , what Reason has he given why he quitted the Church in which he was baptized , educated and preferred ( whether above his Deserts , let the World judge by this Paper ; ) but because the Discipline and Devotions of the Church of Rome suit his present Fancy better than what he left ; because he was not able to answer some few Questions that have no great difficulty in them , his private Judgment or Interest told him he ought to change his Church . And if he changed his Church on the confidence of a Judgment he acknowledges sufficiently weak , why will he not allow the same liberty to others ? If he say that the Church he has chosen is a Church from whence there can be no appeal ; I answer , he has only his own Judgment for believing so ; and when that Judgment alters , he may be of any other Church , and so he is fallen in spite of his endeavours into the same mistake he would avoid . He brings in ( to what purpose he knows perhaps himself ) a Story of a passionate Presbyterian , who said , that he cared not what his Son was , so he was not a Papist : which may pass for a Reason to those that build their Faith on Stories and Legends , and use to give the Character of their Enemies only from their peevish Sayings , but is nothing to our Church . He argues against Schism , from 1 Cor. 1. 10. I beseech you brethren that ye all speak the same thing , and that there be no Schisms among you : as if the Church of which he pretended to be a Member did not abhor Schism as much as he ; and as if the first Schism from her Communion had not been by Papists about the 10th of Queen Elizabeth . Now the same St. Paul , 1 Cor. 6. 18. advises them to slee fornication , and that as a thing contrary to our Union with God : Mr. M. had best try his Logick , and see if he can from the first place , which forbids Schism , prove that it makes a Man more cease to be a Member of the Church than Fornication doth , which is forbidden in the second . He produces out of Romans 15. 6. that ye glorifie God with one Mind and one Mouth , to prove that we ought not only say the same things , but the same words , especially about Sacraments and Liturgy , for by one Spirit we ( meaning all Christians ) are Baptized into one body ; therefore he exhorts them to take heed of such Teachers as have no mission or authority for what they say , but only good words and fair speeches to deceive the hearts of the simple . By the for and therefore in this sentence one would expect that one part should be a consequence of another , but there is not the least affinity between them : but you must excuse him , for his talent never lay much , as has been observed by his Friends , in drawing consequences . Those , that by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple , are not said to want Mission , Rom. 16. 17. it is probable therefore they had it ; but St. Paul gives very different marks to know them by , even teaching contrary to the Doctrine they had already received , serving their own bellies — not our Lord Jesus . Nonconformity therefore to the Doctrine taught by the Apostles , and too eager a concern for the riches and interest of the Clergy are the signs of a false Teacher , though he have never so Authentick Mission , according to St. Paul , nay , though he were an Angel from Heaven . But if he had been of Mr. M's opinion , the Romans must not have judged of their Pastours , or attempted to discover Seducers by their Doctrine , but only by calling for their Letters of Orders and Titles from the Apostles . § . 8. His fifth Question concerning the Catholick Church is , whether we and the Lutherans are the same in all material points ; the Lutherans holding a corporal Presence in the Sacrament , and we denying it ? to which I answer , that a difference may be material , and yet not essential to Faith , so as to necessitate a division of Church Unity ; there is a very material difference between those in the Church of Rome that hold the deposing Power , and those that deny it ; between those that hold the Pope infallible , and those that deny it , & so in many other points , as material as those in dispute between Protestant Churches ; yet , inasmuch as they are not reckoned by all to be the Essentials of Faith , they do not break Communion ; and indeed , he understands very little that knows not there may be difference of understanding about matters relating to Sacraments , and yet Unity of Communion . As to his Objection against the Calvinists , that they have no Order of Priests or Bishops , I leave him to dispute it with them . Whether consequently they have no true Sacraments , which he infers , I leave him to dispute it with his new Church , which allows their Baptism ; we are concerned in neither . § . 9. There is only one thing more he objects on this Head against our Church , and that is , that she , as established by Law , is Catholick neither as to time nor place , because not visible any where for many Ages before Edward the sixth . This is the old Question , Where was your Church before Luther ? And has been often answered , by shewing that we made no new Church by the Reformation , that we kept all the Essentials of Faith & Worship received by our Ancestors , had the same Creeds , the same God , Christ , Baptism , and Eucharist ; and lastly , were governed by the same Bishops and other Governours , before and after the Reformation ; and therefore it is a wild thought in Mr. M. to affirm that our Church was not visible before Edward the sixth It is true , it was not established by Law in all points as it is now , no more was the Church of Rome before the Reformation by the Council of Trent , ( for that also pretended to Reform ) but the establishing by Law is accidental altogether to a Church , and a Church may be visible long before it is so established . This is all in his Preface that any way relates to the Catholick Church . § . 10. The second part relates to the Mission of our Bishops , and is reduced to four Queries , which shall have their full Consideration , when I come to consider the first point that he lays down in his Book . § . 11. The rest is spent in comparing two Historians of the Reformation , that is Doctor Heylin and Doctor Burnet , of whom he gives this Character , that Burnet strains all his wit to palliate the doings of the Reformers , and paint them out to advantage ; Heylin represents them honestly for the most part , and in their own colours : Whereas in truth the first doth generally lay down naked matter of Fact only , and leaves the Reader to judge ; and the other passes his own Censures , and gives his own Gloss on them ; as may be seen by the very passages Mr. M. quotes out of Doctor Heylin's Preface . The truth is he abuses both Historians ; Heylin by producing that for matter of Fact , which is all his own Inferences and Conjectures , and so exprest to be in the very words : all that was done in order to a Reformation , seemed to be accidental only , then — I cannot reckon his Death an infelicity , — it is not to be thought , to the next clause , nor was it like to happen , to the next — might easily have done , to the next — was in all probability to the last . Are not these Conjectures strong Arguments to prove the Reformation unjustifiable ? But he abuses him yet more in the passage concerning the Duke of Sommerset , by reporting that as Doctor Heylin's Opinion , which he records only as the Opinion of others , pag. 116. of his History ; where among three or four Conjectures , why the Duke did not claim the benefit of his Clergy ; he sets down this last , Finally whether it were some secret judgment on him from above ( as some men conceived ) that he , who had destroyed so many Churches , &c. should want the benefit of Clergy in his greatest extremity ; where Mr. M. leaves out the Parenthesis ( as some Men conceived ) and falsifies him ( perhaps to make him recompence ) by adding another of his own , he ( the Duke of Sommerset ) deprived many learned men of their means and livelyhood , ( for being Papists adds Mr. M. ) a most notorious falshood ; since it appears from all Histories of the Reformation , that there was an universal Complyance of the Clergy ; few making any Opposition , and none almost absolutely refusing Conformity ; his Papists at that time loved their Means so well , or found so little amiss in the Reformation , that they readily complyed with all Changes . And as he thus abuses and falsifies Heylin , so he doth Burnet ; he saith , that the worst Burnet can charge Heylin with , is his not vouching Authority for what he says ; and he affirms , that it is an untruth , that Heylin writ upon uncertain grounds , as Burnet would insinuate . But Burnet in that place insinuates no such thing , but only says he ought to have vouched them , that people might have judged of their certainty . Heylin's own Testimony for his fidelity is not to be taken in his own Cause ; and therefore Mr. M. vindicates him very ill , when he produces nothing else for him . He saith Doctor Burnet doth not produce one instance of any moment , wherein he dares say , Doctor Heylin is false . I hope Mr. M. would not quote any passage out of Heylin that was not of moment ; what if that passage that relates to the Duke of Sommerset here quoted , be recorded falsly by Heylin , and taxt as false by Burnet ? then I believe every body will judge Mr. M. either very ignorant or very malicious ; and yet thus it is . Says Mr. M. from Heylin , The Duke of Sommerset was so defective in his Judgment , as not to crave the benefit of his Clergy , which might have saved his Life . Now look into Burnet ad Ann. 1531. pag. 186. 2 vol. and see whether he have not these words , Some late Writers have made an Inference upon his not claiming the benefit of Clergy , that he was thus left of God , not to plead that benefit ; since he had so much invaded the Rights and Revenues of the Church ; but in this they shewed their Ignorance ; for by the Statute , That Felony , of which he was found Guilty , was not to be purged by Clergy . The most likely excuse I can make for Mr. M. is , that he neither read Burnet nor Heylin ; if he did , he neither knew this , and conceal'd it ; which makes him very disingenuous : or did not observe it ; and so he falls under the Character of a thoughtless Reader , that could neither by his own Observation , nor the Admonition of Friends avoid picking out , and repeating such an uncharitable falshood . It were easie to shew several falshoods ( even in those things that are most invidious to the Reformation ) in Heylin's History , observed and confuted by Burnet : one more particularly , in his saying , that the Father of Queen Ann Boleyne was one of the Jury that condemned her ; with which , as a falshood , he taxes Heylin in his Addenda ▪ p. 363. first Volume , where he says , that Doctor Heylin took this , as he did many other things , too easily upon Sanders's credit ; which ( if true ) is enough to blast the credit of his Book with all Protestants , nay with all Men of Judgment that know what an infamous Lyar and Rebel Sanders was . Whereas therefore he intreats the Protestant Reader to peruse Doctor Heylin's History of the Reformation , we are content he should do so ; and let him at the same time peruse the History of the Council of Trent , written by Father Paul , and let him impartially judge which was carried on by the worst Men and worst Arts ; the Reformation , or the Council . What Mr. M. objects further in his Preface against Cranmer and the other Reformers , shall be considered in its proper place . CHAP. II. I Come now to examin the Pamphlet it self , which consists of Three parts . 1. A Letter to His Grace the Lord Primate of Ireland . 2. Of Three points wherein he could not satisfie himself . And 3dly . A confused heap of particulars at the latter end . As to the Letter ; it is a little ambiguous to whom it is directed ; if to his old Patron , as a civil Compliment at taking leave , he had done well to have told the true Reason why he forsook him . Your Grace would not get me a Bishoprick , though often prest and sollicited by me ; therefore I beg your leave to seek a new Patron , whose Mediation may be more effectual . But perhaps Mr. M. means another man , and then we may reckon this as the first Fruits of his Conversion . Are you taught already the Art of Equivocation ? We shall learn from this what sincerity we may expect from you ; and shall hardly believe you when you tell us that it was not any consideration of Temporal Interest inclined you to be reconciled . If you valued Temporal Interest so little , why were you so earnest for a Protestant Bishoprick ? Why did you repine and murmur so much that you were not preferred ? Why did you declare to several about a year ago , that you was no Roman Catholick , but yet would not appear against the Church of Rome , because you hoped to rise by help of Roman Catholicks ? Why did you endeavour to ingratiate your self by mean Arts , and condescend even to the Office of an Informer ? Why did you defer publishing this Paper ( such as it is ) which was ready sometime before , till you thought you might be sure of keeping the Profits of your Deanery ? Either you are a Lay or Clergy-man ? If a Lay-man ; are not you abominably Sacrilegious , to have possessed , and still retain the Revenue of a Clergy-man ? Why do you retain the Title of Dean in the Frontispiece of a Book , which is designed to prove you to be no Priest , and consequently incapable of it ? If your Orders had yielded you as much per annum as your Deanery doth , Have we not reason to believe , you would no more have renounced the one than the other ? For shame , resign our Church her own , since you have deserted her , or never talk of Conscience . Till this be done , it is in vain for you to pretend that your having reflected on the uncertainty and variety if the Protestant Spirit , or perused Catholick Books have undeceived you . Did you never reflect on the uncertainty or variety of the Protestant Spirit before , that it should have such a mighty influence on you just at this time ? sure there was greater variety when you was first educated in the Colledge , and when you first entred into Orders than now . They talk'd much of the Spirit then , and you yet retain their language ; if instead of that Cant you had well studied and considered the Principles of the Church which you have left , you would have found that there neither are nor can be any more certain and steady Principles of any Religion , than hers are . You make your self a great Novice , that at this time a day pretend to be converted by perusing the Mass. In good earnest , did you never read it before ? if you did , how comes it to have such influence on you in King James the Second's time , and so little in King Charles the Second's ? All you pretend for your self is , that you were then under Prejudice , and deceived by false Reports , concerning ( that you call ) the Catholick Religion : that is , The Reverend Dean after near 30 years study had his Religion by hear-says , wanted Honesty to be impartial , and either Industry or Means to inform himself concerning the most material Controversies that are on foot in the Church . Which Controversies are still the same , and the Arguments pro and con of the same force they were before in every thing , except the alteration of one circumstance that is , worldly Advantage ▪ Is not this a most excellent Account of your Conversion ? And whereas you tell His Grace , that all that have known you these several years can witness for you , that it was not any consideration of worldly Interest that inclined you ; you are obliged to beg His Graces pardon for your false Information : for , I can assure you , I have consulted many that have known you , and have not met one that can witness this for you . But on the contrary , the most conclude , that it was the little grain of Worldly Advantage turn'd the Scale for your new Church . This is therefore the true Account you ought to have given His Grace of your Reconcilement . § . 2. The second part of Mr. M's Paper consists of three points , wherein he professes , that he could never satisfie himself since he began to study the Controversies between the two Churches . The first was , The Mission or Authority of the first Reformers . The second , The Want of Confession in the Church of England . And the third , Where is that one holy Catholick Church we do profess to believe in the two Creeds ? To the first of these points I shall reply in this method . 1. I will put together all the Questions that he asks on this Head. 2. Consider the Answers he produces to them . And 3. The Objections he has raised against the Reformation or Reformers . 1. Concerning our Mission he asks in his Preface , pag. 3. What Priesthood or Holy Orders had the first Reformers , but what they received from the hands of Roman Catholick Bishops ? What Priesthood or Holy Orders have Protestants , but what they confess to have received from Roman Catholick Bishops ? Pag. 12. of the Pamphlet . 2. Who authorized the first Reformers to preach their Protestant Doctrine , and administer their Protestant Sacraments ? Pag. 1. of his Pamphlet . I am not now disputing what Doctrine he preached ; but who sent him to preach his Protestant Doctrine , and administer his Protestant Sacraments ? 'T is not his Doctrine , but Mission I am now enquiring after . Pag. 3. 3. Whether Cranmer and his Associates could condemn the Church of Rome by pretence of the Mission they received from her Bishops ? Pag. 3. of his Preface . I understand not — how any man can justifie his Protestant Doctrine by authority of the Popish Mission . Pag. 2. of his Pamphlet . I must still ask the old Question ; By whose Authority did he condemn that Church , from whom he received his Mission ? Pag. 3. of his Pamphlet . The Archbishop of Canterbury , &c. at the time of their Consecration were professed Roman Catholicks — But afterwards turning Protestants , and pronouncing the Church of Rome Idolatrous , I would fain know by whose Authority ? Pag. 2. of his Pamphlet . At the time of their Consecration they professed Seven Sacraments , Anno 1536. they retrencht them to three — then to two , Anno 1549. — By whose Authority or Mission I cannot tell . Ibid. pag. 2. Again , Who gave them Authority to pronounce themselves sound Members , and the Church of Rome a corrupt Arm of the Catholick Church ? Pag. 12. The fourth Sett of Questions concerning Mission is on this Head ; Preface , p. 3 Whether a Presbyterian Minister having received Orders from a Protestant Bishop , can , by virtue of such Orders , pronounce the Church of England a corrupt Church ? I understand not how a man can forsake the Church of England , and preach Presbyterian Doctrine by vertue of his Protestant Orders . Pag. 2. of his Pamphlet . Presbyterians being Interrogated , — Did that Church authorize you to preach against the Sacraments or Liturgy ? there was no Answer to be had . Pag. 3. I desire to know , whether an honest man can preach against the Liturgy , Sacraments , or Constitution of any Church , by vertue of any Commission he received from it ? Ibid. So that no honest man can turn Presbyterian or Independant Preacher by vertue of his Protestant Mission . p. 4. The fifth Sett of Questions relating to Mission is , Pref. pag. 3. Whether an Act of Parliament in France , Spain or Germany , be not as good an Authority for Popery there , as in England for Protestancy ? A Parliamentary Mission then our first Reformers had , and no other that I can find . p. 3. § . 3. Before I come to a distinct consideration of each of these , I must observe that he waves the Dispute concerning our Priestly or Episcopal Orders , whether valid or no ; ( Pamphl . pag. 1. ) Now , if these are valid , either let him shew one Sacrament administred by Protestants , which these Characters do not give them Power to celebrate : or one Article of Faith that they teach , which the same do not oblige them to teach : or else let him ask no more for their Mission , and Authority , to teach their Doctrine , and administer their Sacraments . If their Doctrine and Sacraments are not Theirs but Christs ; they are not only sent , but obliged by their Orders to administer the one , and teach the other , in the Churches wherein they are appointed Pastors . I observe further , that he manifestly contradicts himself in this matter ; for he makes Cranmer and Latimer the first Protestant Bishops and owns their Consecration ( p. 2. ) and yet alledges ( p. 3. ) that it is no easie matter to find out who consecrated the first Protestant Bishops ; because , for sooth , there were none to do it , but Roman Catholick Bishops , who never use to consecrate any Protestants . But if he had read Mason , and Archbishop Bramhall , he might have seen who ordained the first Reformers , and their Succession to this day : and if he had consulted Sir James Ware de Proesulibus , he might have seen that there wanted not Bishops in Ireland willing to consecrate Protestants ; Primate Loftus being consecrated by the then Archbishop of Dublin , Dr. Curwin , who continued in his Archiepiscopal See near six years after , and then by reason of his great Age was translated to the Bishoprick of Oxford at his own desire . Antiquit. Oxon. de Aede Christi . lib. 2. p. 291. Ware de Proesulibus , Hib. in Archiepiscopis Dubliniensibus , p. 120. Nor is the Testimony he produces out of Burnet from Queen Mary at all pertinent ; all that appears from that Testimony is , that they who were ordained according to the Form in our Common-Prayer-Books are not lookt upon by the Queen to be ordered in every Deed , but there is no reason alledged for it , nor indeed can any be given , but because it was not done according to the Pontifical ; an ignorance excusable at that time , when perhaps she was informed that something Essential was left out in our Form of Orders , or that the Pontifical with its Tricks was not a new thing ; whereas our Form of Ordination is more full then any of the ancient Forms , both in Substance and Ceremony ; and therefore either the ancient Priests and Bishops had no sufficient Ordination , or Queen Mary was mis-informed when she did not reckon Ordination by the Common-prayer-book ordering indeed . § . 5. Having premised this , I answer to his first Question , What Priesthood or holy Orders had the first Reformers , but what they confess to have received from Roman Catholick Bishops ? If he mean by Roman Catholick Bishops , such as own'd the Bishop of Rome to be the supream universal Pastor of the Catholick Church by Divine right , to whom themselves were by God made unappealably accountable , which is the Essential Character of a Roman Catholick ; the first Reformers received their Orders from no such Roman Catholicks . Whatever Roman Catholicks hold now , he will never prove this to have been the declared sence of the Church of England before the Reformation : and therefore the first Reformers cannot properly be said to have received their Orders from Roman Catholicks , but from the Church of England . There are two things to be distinguished in the Office of a Bishop ; one is , the Power or Capacity of governing the Church , interpreting Scripture , Consecrating other Bishops , Ordaining Priests and Deacons , Offering , Baptizing , and Confirming : the other is , the admitting the Bishop so impowered to the exercise of that Power within certain Limits , which we call a Diocess . The first of these is a Divine , and the second a Canonical Right . Now the first Reformers received the first of these , that is , their Orders from Christ , by the hands of their Consecrators , who were Bishops of England , for Rome . The second of these they received likewise from the Laws and Constitutions of the Church and Kingdom of England , of Rome : And it is to be observed that the Laws of the one were directly contrary to the Laws of the other , and that the Bishops of England had their proper and immediate Mission to their Churches by an Authority maintained in opposition to the Popes Power , which he endeavoured as much as he could to abolish , but was not able ; as may be seen in his Contests with Chichley , Archbishop of Canterbury in Henry the Sixth's time . Although therefore the first Reformers had their Orders from Bishops in Communion with the Church of Rome ; yet it was as Christian Bishops they Ordained , and as English Bishops that they admitted the first Reformers to their Charges . But suppose they had no other Orders but what they received from the Bishop of Rome himself ; all that can be concluded from thence is , that we are obliged to own , that the Orders of Priest and Bishop given by Roman Catholicks are valid , and capacitate a man to perform all the Duties belonging to those Offices in a Christian Church , which we readily acknowledge , and charge the Popish Priests and Bishops not with want of Orders , but with abusing the Orders they have , to ill intents and purposes : The Roman Catholick Bishops do not confer Orders as Roman , but Christian Bishops their Orders are Christian Orders , and those we hold sufficient to all intents and purposes of the Reformation , and must do so , till Mr. M. or some body else prove them insufficient . He objects , pag. 2. That the first Reformers were Ordained Roman Catholick Bishops , and made themselves Protestants , which proceeds on an ignorant supposition , that every man is ordained to preach the Tenents of his Ordainers , or else must have no Mission : whereas the Ordainers are only Instruments , but the Power is from Christ ; and they are no more accountable to their Ordainers upon the account of being Ordained by them , then a man is accountable to a Lord Chancellor for the use of his Power , because he set the Seal to his Patent by which he claims his Power . In short , a man is Ordained neither a Protestant nor a Papist , but a Christian Bishop ; his Mission is a Christian Mission , let him be sent by whom he will ; and whoever gave him his Mission , if he teach any Doctrine but Christs , he is accursed . Hence when the Donatists were very earnest to know the Ordainers of St. Augustine and other Catholick Bishops , they answer , We are not satisfied how the cause of Truth is concerned , who was the Ordainer of any one ; since God is shewn to be our Father . And when they press still to know the Ordainers , St. Augustine answers , I see they insist on trifles . 'T was on this Principle that Baptism and Ordination by Hereticks were allowed in the Catholick Church , to such as came ever from those Hereticks , even because they were Baptized Christian Proselytes , and Ordained Christian Bishops ; and they were never thought to go beyond their Mission , because they renounced the Errors of their Ordainers . If it be replied , that Hereticks making themselves , of Hereticks , Catholick Bishops , change for the better ; but Papists making themselves Protestant Bishops , change for the worse . I answer , this quits the Plea of Mission , and brings the Mission to the trial of the Doctrine . If then Cranmer and the rest of the Roman Catholick Bishops made themselves only truly Catholicks ; they made themselves nothing but what Christ had obliged them to in their Consecration . He is the Father of Truth ; the Children of Truth are owned by him as honestly begotten , and no By-blows , as Mr. M. would insinuate , p. 2. in which he has exactly transcribed not only the Argument of the Donatist Petilian against the Catholicks , but his very words , The true Question is therefore , whether Cranmer and the first Reformers embraced and vindicated the Truth in their Changes ; and let him joyn issue on this Point when he pleases , we are ready to answer him . § . 6. To his second Question , Who authorized the first Reformers to Teach their Protestant Doctrine , and Administer their Protestant Sacraments ? I Answer , No body but himself would have asked such a foolish Question ; since the Protestants pretend to no Doctrine or Sacraments peculiar to themselves , or that may be called Theirs , but only to the Doctrine & Sacraments of Christ received in the Catholick Church : If the Protestants were guilty of any fault , it was not making new Doctrines or Sacraments , but rejecting those that some counted old ; and so their Crime was not the wanting Mission or Authority to do what they did , but not using their Authority to its full extent , to do and teach more : If they had power given them to Administer seven Sacraments , and administred only two , as Mr. M. says , then it is a foolish thing to doubt their Authority to Minister those two ; whereas they are rather accountable for their not Holding and Administring the other five : but the truth is , they received in their Ordination power from Christ , to administer neither Protestant nor Popish , but Christian Sacraments ; and Mr. M. neither has , nor can make it appear , that they Administer any other , or omit any that Christ has commanded . He is aware of this Answer in his fifth Page , and gives a reply to it ; I pray ( saith he ) the Reader to remember that this was the very Answer of Luther , Socinus , Zuinglius , Calvin , and most other Reformers : Let me pray the Reader to observe , that this is nothing to the purpose , if it were true ; since we are not to believe every Spirit , but try the Spirits whether they be of God. The false Prophets pretended to Revelation as well as the true , was neither therefore to be believed ? the false Reformers , as well as the true ▪ pretended to preach no new Doctrine , or administer new Sacraments , but only the Doctrine and Sacraments of Jesus Christ : Are neither therefore in the right ? May not a good Answer be abused and misapplyed ? To clear therefore this matter , we own what he contends for , that both true Doctrine and external and lawful Mission are generally necessary to a regular preacher of the Gospel , pag. 5. and if either of these are wanting , the person is not to be received . Which appears in the Prophets he mentions from Jer. 23. ibid. who wanted not an external Mission , whatever Mr. M. imagines ; for the Prophets are the Pastors of the people , against whom God pronounces a Woe , verse 1. and 2. of that Chapter ; they are joyned with the Priests , verse the 11. and 34. and their fault was not preaching without any Mission at all , but preaching false Doctrine ; for which no man can have a Mission , but even the Pope himself when he doth so , is to be rejected as a Seducer . If these very Prophets whom Mr. M. imagines to have had no Mission had taught true Doctrine , God would have approved them , verse 22. But if they had stood in my Councel , and caused my people to hear my words , then they should have turned them from their evil ways ; that is , God would have given them success : and when God says , verse 32. I sent them not , nor commanded them , it doth not relate to preaching , for God had commanded the Priests and Prophets to preach ; but it relates to the causing my people to err by their Lyes and Lightness , which is a good Argument against those that seduce the people with Legends and Lyes , and Revelations , and false Miracles , and Doctrines of Profit and Gain , whatever their Mission be . Now these two things being necessary to a true Teacher , we affirm , that the first Reformers in England had both ; not only the Licence and Approbation of the Church as he states it , pag. 15. but her Ordination & Appointment also according to the known rules of constituting Pastors , which some other Reformers do not pretend to ; and therefore all the Question is , concerning the other Character of a true Pastor , preaching true Doctrine . If the first Reformers had preached Popish Doctrine and administred Popish Sacraments , I do not find but Mr. M. would have thought they had Mission enough : but I Answer , that was not Christs design in appointing Bishops , but his design was that they should administer his Sacraments and teach his Doctrine . This all Bishops are impowered and obliged to do ; and therefore till he shew that there is a difference between Christs Doctrine and Sacraments , and those that Protestants Teach and Administer , their Episcopal Orders are sufficient to warrant them . § . 7. And so I proceed to his third Sett of Questions , Whether Cranmer and his Associates could condemn the Church of Rome , by pretence of the Mission received from her Bishops ? To which I answer , That if by condemning the Church of Rome , be meant anathematizing her , and cutting her off from the Body of Christ by a judicial Sentence , as if we were her Superiors ; ( which condemning only is by authority . ) We never thus condemned the Church of Rome : Faults we believe to be in her that greatly need Reformation ; but that Work we leave to her lawful Governours ; our Church having declared in her Preface to her Liturgy , that in these her doings she condemns no other Nation , nor prescribes any thing but to her own People only ; Cranmer therefore and his Associates did not condemn the Church of Rome , nor could he or his Fellows do it by pretence of a Mission received from her Bishops , for they received no Mission from her Bishops , but from the Bishops of England . But then he proceeds to ask by whose Authority did they condemn the Church from whom they received their Mission ? To give the World an account of this matter ; it is to be observed that the supream Government of our Church has always been in a National Councel or Convocation of our Clergy ; and that not only We but every National Church hath the same power of altering all Rites and Ceremonies , of abrogating and making all Ecclesiastical Constitutions , and lastly of reforming all Abuses and Corruptions crept into the Church ; which the supream Civil Power hath of altering the Civil Constitutions ; the Fundamental Laws of Religion being preserved inviolable in the one , and of the State in the other . The Supream Ecclesiastical Power being lodged here , the next thing requisite is a certain Rule and Method , according to which , Laws were to be past by it ; and in the proceedings about the Reformation all alterations being made by this Power , and in this Method , it follows that they were all made legally ; and that our Churches retrenching such Ceremonies out of the Service of God as were judged Useless , Burdensome , or Superstitious ; and such Opinions as were no part of the Christian Faith , or corrupted it , was no more to make a new Faith or Church , then to to reform Abuses in the State by Act of Parliament is to make a new Kingdom . Nor do they that thus make a Reformation any more condemn their Predecessors , because they reform what was amiss in their time ; then Parliament Men condemn their Ancestors when they make a new Law. I do confess an honest Man cannot preach against the Liturgy , Sacraments , or Constitution of a Church by vertue of any Commission from it ; and that no Church ought to be presumed to Authorize her Priests or Bishops to go and preach the Gospel after their private Sence or Conscience , in contradiction to her declared Doctrine and Worship ; and that the Church of England gives no such power at this day . But I deny this to be the case of the first Reformers , who did not act as private men in the Church when they Reformed ; but as representing her in her Convocation , and by her Authority . Although therefore the Church of England oblige private Men not to contradict her allowed Orders ; yet she doth not bind her self from making such Alteration in a Canonical way , as she sees convenient , or is convinced to be necessary . If therefore Mr. M. can shew , that Cranmer and his Associate made the Alterations without consulting her , he went indeed beyond his Commission from her ; but if she assented to all he did and to this day approves the Reformation , how did Cranmer condemn that Church from whence he had his Mission ? If the Alteration was good , and those things that were removed were really Errors and Corruptions , did Cranmer and his Associates any more than what they were obliged to do by the very Roman Pontifical in their Ordination ? It belongs ( saith the Pontifical ) to a Bishop to judge , to interpret , to consecrate , ordain , offer , baptize and confirm . Did they do any more ? This Answer he owns , and ascribes to Burnet , pag. 3. The Pastors and Bishops of the Church are ordained to instruct the people in the Faith of Iesus Christ , according to the Scriptures : and the Nature of their Office is a sacred Trust that obliges them to this , and therefore if they find Errors and Corruptions in the Church , they are obliged to remove them , and undeceive the people ▪ Mr. M. would do well to answer , on this Supposition , Whether they are , or are not obliged ? If they are , then they have Mission enough to remove , in a legal way , all Corruptions , even those of their Ordainers . If they are not , how do they answer the Engagement made in their Orders , to teach the people according to the Scriptures ? But Mr. M. waves any Answer to this , and in effect owns it , only he denies or seems to deny the Supposition ; where he tells us , Cranmer and one or two Bishops pretended Errors and Corruptions , and drove on the Reformation against the major Vote of the English Bishops ; p. 3. that is , he had Power & Mission enough , but abused it : and so to know whether Cranmer exceeded his Commission or no , we must know whether the Corruptions he reformed were real or pretended . For if they were real , there is no doubt but he was obliged to reform them ; none else being under a deeper Obligation than he . So then Mr. M's Question is out of doors , Who sent him ? and another substituted in the room thereof by himself ; and that is , Whether there were Corruptions in the Discipline , Worship and Faith of the Church at that time ? or whether He , and the other Men of Abilities were manifestly intoxicated with mistakes of Holy Scripture , with a Spirit of Perverseness and desire of Change ? ( pag. 4. ) And we are content to joyn issue with him on these head● when he pleases . But perhaps though Cranmer was obliged to reform what was amiss ; yet he ought to have done it in a regular way : Whereas if we believe Mr. M be drove on a Reformation against the major vote of the English Bishops . If by this , he means establishing any thing without their consent , 't is a most notorious falshood ; for in all he did , he had the unanimous vote and consent of the major part of the Convocation , the Universal submission of the Clergy , and approbation of the People . If they complyed against their Conscience , then by this we may see how excellently the Mass and Confessing had instructed them in the Knowledge and Conscience of their Duty ; when they so readily complied with all Alterations . Let him try , if he can bring a Protestant Convocation to an unanimous repeal of these things by such motives . But if the Clergy in a National Councel , and the People in obedience to them , or from their own inclinations did comply in earnest : what an idle Question is it to ask , By what Authority Cranmer condemned that Church from whom he received his Mission and Holy Order ? When she concurred in all he did , and approved , nay , made all the Alterations in her Liturgy , Sacraments , and Constitutions that were made . The true Question therefore is , Whether the Church of England had full power to Reform her self without the consent of the Pope ? For it is into his Supremacy all this Banter of Mission , and indeed the whole Faith of the Roman Church , as distinct from the Catholick is resolved . If the Church of England was not subject to the Church of Rome , she had sufficient power to Reform her self : and the only thing for which she is accountable to God , the World , and her Subjects , is the Goodnes● of the Reformation . If that was a good work , Cranmer did well in advising , and she in decreeing it : but if the Errors removed by the Reformation were not real , but only pretended , as Mr. M. would perswade us , ( but will never be able to prove ) Cranmer indeed was answerable for giving her ill Councel : but she her self is accountable for the removal of them , for it was Her Act. 'T was by Her Authority and Mission , though Mr. M. cannot tell it , Page 2. that Anno 154● . the word Sacrament , in the sence which the Church then gave of it , was restrained to Baptism and the Lords Supper ; and sure the Church of England had Authority enough to explain her meaning , by what words she thought fit . Let him shew if he can , that there were more Sacraments ( as she understands the word Sacrament ) ever owned in the Catholick Church , than those two allowed by her . Lastly , to shew that it was not Cranmer's private Opinion influenced the Church ; 't is observable first that he had several private Opinions , ( two whereof Mr. M. lays to his charge in his Preface ) which were absolutely condemned by the Church , and the contrary established as her Doctrine , which he himself signed . 2ly . That the Bishops and Clergy of England had unanimously entred upon the Business of the Reformation in the time of Cranmer's Predecessor Arch-Bishop Warham , Anno 1531. by the Submission of the Clergy to the King , and acknowledging his Supremacy : and again Anno 1533 , by consenting to an Act against Appeals to Rome , wherein the Nation was declared to be an entire Body within it self with full Power to do Justice in all Causes , Spiritual as well as Temporal . And this before Cranmer was Arch-Bishop , so far was he from condemning or imposing on the Church from whence he had his Mission . § . 8. The fourth set of Questions concerning Mission is on this head , whether a Presbyterian Minister having received Orders from a Protestant Bishop can by vertue of s●ch Orders pronounce the Church of England a corrupt Church , or Preach against her Sacraments or Liturgy , notwithstanding her Censures ? His design in this Question , is to shew that the first Reformers had no more Authority to Preach against the Romish Church , then such a Presbyter has to Preach against our Church : I cannot understand how a man can forsake the Church of England , and Preach Presbyterian Doctrine by vertue of his Protestant Mission ; nor consequently how any Man can justifie his Protestant Doctrine by vertue of his Popish Mission . pag. 2. Why may not a Presbyterian , having the same Authority of Scripture which Cranmer pretended to , Preach against the Superstition of the Common Prayer , as well as he against the Idolatry of the Mass pag. 6. and more to the same purpose , pag. 12. In Answer to this , I will shew first , why a Presbyter or Bishop , ought not to Preach against the Constitution of the Church whereof he is a Member in contradiction to her Censures . And secondly , that this was not the first Reformers Case . 1. A Presbyter or Bishop ought not to Preach against the Constitution of the Church of which they are Members : Because there is a Regular way in which they may endeavour a Reformation . If they find any thing amiss in her Discipline or Doctrine , they may make their Application for redress of it to those that have power to reform it ; but must not presume being Subjects to usu●p their Governors Power : For this is the case of private mens reforming abuses in the State in spight of the King ; a remedy generally worse than the disease . However , in both Cases private men may sue for Redress , and in their proper Stations endeavour it . But if such a Bishop or Presbyter be Censured and Suspended , he is thereby discharged from the Execution of his Office , and he must no more make a Schism to regain it , then one must make a Rebellion in the State to re-gain a Civil Office. This we urge , and I think with reason against the Presbyterians and other Sects amongst us , that either have no Ordination or Appointment to their Offices from the Church of England and Ireland , or else abuse the Power against her , which was once given them by her , and from which they are again legally suspended . And as we urge this against them , so likewise against M. M. and his Party , who without any Mission from these Churches , do according to their private sence take a Commission from a Foreign Bishop and Church , to Preach against the declared Doctrine of that Church , to which by the Law of Christ they are Subjects . Them we count those Rebels , who when censured and condemned by their own Churches and Governors against all the known Laws of our Church , flee from her Tribunal , and appeal to Foreigners , And what Rebels or Hereticks will ever be convicted , ( p. 4. ) if they may chuse their own Judges , as those do ? We do not deny the Orders of the Church of Rome ; we own that she can make Priests & Bishops ; but let Mr. M. shew that the Pope could ever give them Power to exercise their Office in these Kingdoms ; since it is directly against the ancient Laws and Practice observed and enacted by our Ancestors , and in force at the Reformation . If a man like not the Orders ▪ therefore of his own Church , he must be without Orders , except he would be a Schismatick and Deserter , as Mr. M. has made himself . And this is sufficient to shew that the Case of the first Reformers was vastly different from the Case of the present Dissenters , which is the second thing I am to prove . The whole strength of Mr. M's Paper doth really depend on this Parallel , and whoever reads it , will find that the only considerable Argument he produce , is , that the first Reformers Mission could not be good , because the Presbyterians have as much to say for Theirs : And that he can find no difference between these two , only that the first Reformers were Authorized by Act of Parliament . I have heard it given as the Character of wit , that it finds out the likeness of things : whereas it is the work of Judgment to find out the differences : Now Mr. M. having ( whatever his Judgment may be ) a great wit , no wonder if he could find no other difference between those two Cases . His W●t could serve him to find the likeness between the Presbyterians Case and Ours , but his Judgment doth not serve him to find the Difference , Now , if he had been very inquisitive , he might have been informed in this by one of the late London Cases , printed for Thomas Bassett , London 1683. and written purposely to shew this Difference ; and 't is a wonder that Mr. M. whose study lay much in Pamphlets , mist it . If he saw it , he ought to have shown those Differences there assigned to be none , before he parallell'd the Cases . But to help his understanding , I will shew three material Differences , besides that of an Act of Parliament and besides the truth of the Doctrine , which was really on the Reformers side , and is only pretended to by Dissenters . 1. In the condition of the Persons that pretended to Reform . 2ly . In the manner of their proceeding . And 3ly . In the Principles they took for their Rule . First , Therefore there is a great difference in the condition of the first Reformers , and the present Dissenters ; these being only private persons , at the best Presbyters over-voted by the major part of their Brethren : Whereas the first Reformers were Bishops , and the chief Governors of the Church ; who had a Canonical as well as Parliamentary Mission , and to which of right it did belong to Govern and Reform the Church , over whom they were made Overseers by the Holy Ghost . Furthermore , the present Dissenters were the Bishops Subjects ▪ accountable to them as their Superiors , and liable to be discharged from their Office , and the Benefits of the Communion of the Church by their Censure ; and so their Separation from their Bishops is a Schism ; that is , an Ecclesiastical Rebellion : But the first Reformers ▪ were accountable to no Superior but Jesus Christ ; they were his immediate Vicars , not the Pope's ; and therefore could not be guilty of any Rebellion against him . 2. And as they were thus different in their Condition , so they were likewise in the manner of their Proceedings : for the first Reformers did strictly forbid private persons doing any thing of their own Head , as may be seen by the Proclamation set out Feb. 6. Ed. 6. Anno 2. and accordingly they managed the whole matter by publick Authority in a Regular way , according to the ancient Forms of passing Laws , and making Alterations in the Church . Whereas both Presbyterians and Papists ; that is , all Dissenters , proceed on their own Heads in s●ight of their Lawful Governors . Let a Presbyterian take the same way to remove the pretended Superstition of the Common-Prayer-Book that the first Reformers took to remove the Idolatry of the Mass ; or let the Papists take the same way to Establish the Mass , that our first Reformers took to Abolish it , and do it , if they can : But if they will make use of another way never allowed in the Church , and yet pretend to the same Power that the Bishops of England had , he must be blind that doth not see the vanity of their Pretences . Mr. M. observes well , That the not considering this Matter , hath brought a world of Confusion on these Kingdoms , and till the People understand it , we are never like to see an end of Religious distractions ; ( pag. 6. ) for while men without ordinary Mission from the Governors of a Church , or without extraordinary Mission testified by Miracle , shall be received by the people upon pretence they are sent by a Foreign Church , or that the People themselves can declare them Commissionated by Christ , which are the pretences of Papists and Dissenters ; what more peace can be hoped for in the Church , than in a State where such things were allowed to be practised ? Why may not the Presbyterians resist their Lawful Governors , as well as the Papists deny their Power , and question their Succession , though they have none to oppose to it ? The third Difference between the Dissenters Case in respect of Us , and our Case in respect of Papists , is in the Principles on which our first Reformers proceeded . They did not pretend as he slanders them in his ▪ Preface to justifie their Separation ( for they never made any ) by the Scriptures only as interpreted by themselves , not only without , but against the Authority of the present Catholick Church . For on the contrary , except he mean by the Catholick Church , the particular Church of Rome , and her Adherents , the Catholick Church was for the Reformers , as they conceived ; and the greater part of visible Christians concurred with them in their sence of Scripture , as to the most material controversies between our Church and Rome . But the true Principles of the Reformation were such as these , That the Catholick Faith ought to be always the same in all Ages , and could not receive Additions or grow by time ; that nothing should be an Article of Faith to day that was not yesterday ; and therefore nothing was to be reckoned as Catholick Faith , but what was received semper , ubique & ab omnibus , according to Vincentius's Rule ; and that nothing was thus Catholik , but what might be proved by Scripture taken in that sence which hath not been contradicted by Catholick Fathers . These were the Principles of the Reformers Faith. And in other things belonging to the Government and Polity of the Church , to Rites , Ceremonies , and Liturgies : 'T was their principle , that every National Church was at her own choice , how she would order them ; and her Subjects ow'd her Obedience . These are truly Catholick Principles founded on a Rock , the word of God interpreted by Catholick Tradition , and not on the present sentiments of any party of Men , and are a sufficient hedge against Heresie and Schism , sufficient to secure the good correspondence of neighbouring , and the peace of particular Churches . Let any one compare this Basis with that of the Roman Faith , and let him judge which is most solid ; whether that which is founded on the Scriptures as interpreted by all Ages of the Church , or that which has only the Voice of a part of the Visible Church , and the greater part against it . These are the two Bases of the Reformation and Popery . To this Justification no Sectary can pretend , and though Luther and Calvin , &c. had really this Warrant to reject the super-added Articles of the Church of Rome , yet they differed in this , at least some of them , that they did not think it necessary to wait the concurrence of their Governors , but concluded the major part of the Peoples joyning with them was sufficient , without regular Forms and Process : and whether that may be allowed in any case I leave Mr. M. and them to dispute , for we are not concerned in it , and they are of full Age to answer for themselves , and he will find they can do it . Only he is not to be pardoned when he brings in Socinus answering amongst other Reformers , that he ●reached no new ▪ Doctrine , nor administred any new Sacrament ; but only the Primitive Doctrine , &c. according to the sence of the ancient Fathers , pag. 5. which plainly shews that he knew nothing of S●cinus his Opinions or Principles , who * positively denied the necessity of Baptism ; and ‖ protested against being judged by that sence the Fathers or the Primitive Church have given of Scriptures . These are sufficient to shew the vast difference between the pretences of the present Dissenters , and the ground of our Reformation . And that the Argument he draws from the Obligation in Ordination laid on the Presb●ters of our Church , to minister the Doctrine and Sacraments as this Church and Realm have received the same according to the Commandments of God , pag. 4. is of no force against the first Reformers ; though it obliged Mr. M. not to desert our Church ; and the Nonconformists not to preach in contradiction to her declared Doctrine and Worship . § . 9. And so I proceed to his fifth Query : Whether an Act of Parliament in France , Spain , or Germany , be not as good an Authority for Popery there , as in England for Protestancy ? I suppose by an Act of Parliament , he means the Laws enacted regularly by the Supream Powers of those Nations ( which he ignorantly expresses by an Act of Parliament ) and to this I answer , That if any Religion is to be established in any Kingdom by temporal Rewards or Punishments , to encourage the Obedient , and terrifie the disobedient ; the supream Powers of every Nation only can thus establish that Religion ; & they themselves are sole Judges with what temporal Rewards and Punishments , and how far they will establish it : and they are answerable only to God for their actings herein . If therefore the Supream Civil Government in France or Spain set up Popery , a Man must submit to it , or burn for it , if the Law be so : and such a Law , though it is unjust , is as forcible for a false Religion as a true . But there is another way of establishing a Religion , and that is by convincing Mens Minds that the Religion is true ; and that , according as men cordially embrace it , the shall be secured of the Divine Favour ▪ and be happy in the next World. And if this be the Christian Religion of which they are so convinced , one Principle of it is , that the Professors thereof ought to associate themselves into a Body , and that Christ the Author thereof has appointed Governors who are to descend in Succession ; and that to these , regularly appointed , a due Obedience is to be paid , as Men value the Rewards or Punishments of the next life . Now Men , thus perswaded , cannot think an Act of the Civil Governors alone , a sufficient Commission for any one to undertake the Function of a Spiritual Pastor , any more than an Act of these Spiritual Pastors is sufficient to capacitate and commissionate a Man to discharge a Civil Function : and therfore Mr. M. argues very unnecessarily against the Parliaments Power to preach or administer Sacraments , pag. 3. since the 27th . Article of our Church denies expresly that Power to the Civil Governors . I suppose I have sufficiently shewn that our first Reformers had a Canonical as well as Parliamentary Mission , and I suppose that this Canonical Mission is nothing the less valid , because the other goes along with it . But then it may be objected ; Have not France and Spain an Act of the Church , as well as State , for establishing their Religion ? I answer , they have ; and so has Mahometism in Turkey an Act of what they count the Church , for its establishment . And therefore it is not sufficient that the Power that establishes a Religion be competent ; and the Methods regular by which it is settled : but likewise it is necessary that the Religion be true in it self : and therefore a man must examine whether the Christian Religion be more purely & truly taught & established in England , or in Spain , before he either reject or embrace the one or the other . For a false Religion may have all the regular settlements that a true can have and the Professors thereof being conscious of its weakness , are often more industrious to make the accidental security the stronger . And I do affirm that there is not one Argument in this Paper urged by Mr. M. against Protestants , but might with equal advantage be urged mutatis mutandis against convert Christians in a Mahometan Country ; & this alone is sufficient to shew them all to be unconclusive . The way therefore for every man to be satisfied in his Religion , is to examine it apart from the accidental advantages of it , and chuse that which has best reasons to recommend it : for a man ought to chuse his Church by his Religion , and not his Religion by his Church . But he asks in case there be no Judge to determine who have the true sence of Scripture , Roman Catholicks or Protestants , whether the Catholick sence be not as good as the Protestants ? ( Pref. p. 3. ) It were a sufficient Answer to this , to put another case like it to him in the person of a Turk : And it is this , in case there is no Judge to determine ( as I know of none , saith the Turk ) which is the Word of God , the Bible , or the Alchoran . Why should not the Affirmation of us M●slelmans ( who are ready to vouch to the death for the Alchoran , and are twice the number of you Christians , ) be as good authority for Men to believe the Alchoran came from God , as your vouching for your Bibles is sufficient to perswade men to believe that they came from him . But I do not love to shift off a Question , and therefore tell him that the sence put by Roman Catholicks on the Scripture , is not so good as the sence put on them by the Protestants . If it were , they would not be afraid to put it to the World , and let every person that is equally concerned judge for himself : but they had rather appeal to themselves as Judges , and then they are sure of the cause . But then he tells us , that he could never understand what Unity of Spirit , or agreement in Faith Christians are like to have ( page 3. ) upon these Principles . To which I Answer , more than they have now . If National Churches were left to be govern'd by themselves , & the Subjects of each Church bound to adhere to their immediate Governors in all quarrels with neighbouring Churches , those contentions must soon come to an end , as the quarrel between St. Cyprian & Stephen did . For when the Governours of differing Churches find that they cannot hurt one another , or advantage themselves by denial of Communion ( as it must be when the one Church doth not raise a Faction to side with it in the other ) the quarrel must soon cease ; for the thing that makes quarrels endless is interest . But if it once be counted Lawful for one Church to get a Party in the others Precincts , and set up Altar against Altar in the same place , this will continue the Schism , and is the very fundamental reason of the breaches of Charity amongst Christians that now pester Christendom , which are much worse than Divisions in Faith. And thus I have answered all his Questions , and considered all the Replies he made to these Answers he himself was pleased to observe , which were the two first things I undertook on this Head. § . 10. I shall in the third place consider the objections he makes against the Reformers as to their Lives and Principles . If I had a mind to shuffle as he does , I would answer with him , page 13. As for the ill practice of some , and the ill Opinions of other Reformers , which Papists are wont to charge upon the Reformation , I pass them over as no Argument at all . In our Articles and Canons an unprejudiced Reader shall find nothing but what is judicious and pious . But his slanders are so malicious that they ought not to be pass'd over without Animadversion . First therefore against Somerset and Dudley , whom he calls grand Reformers , he objects Sacrilege and Plundering the Church . But as for Dudley , we are not obliged to defend him : he was a false Brother ; being as he professed at his death always a Papist in his heart : and no wonder such Villains should pervert the most innocent design to their own advantage ; since there was a Judas even among the Apostles , who minded only the Bag. Somerset was not clear from the same vice . But it is to be considered that the Pope had taught them all this Lesson by his example and wicked management of the Goods of the Church . 'T was he first gave the proper Patrimony of the Church , even Tithes to Lay-men , to useless and idle Monks and Fryars ; it was he that by making a Trade of Simony and Sacrilege took off men's Veneration for Holy things , and made Noble-Men believe that Estates were as well bestow'd in their hands as to enrich a Foreigner . Whoever reads our Chronicles will find this to be the true Ground of the Dilapidation of the Goods of the Church , and that this took off the Conscience of Robbing her . As for Cranmer and the Bishops , they did what they could to hinder it , but were forced to buy God's truth and the estalishment thereof at the rate of some of their wordly Goods ; a bargain Mr. M. would never have made , nor any one that values the Church only for her outward splendour . But the Reformers hearts were not so full of the World , and yet they never established one Article or Canon that allows Sacriledge . § . 12. But he proceeds and objects against Cranmer : 1. his Opinions ▪ 2. his Recantation , 3. his Treason , 4. his Divorcing Queen Katherine , 5. his Destroying Religious Houses , and hanging up poor Abbots , 6. Setting the People a madding after New Lights , and 7. All the Confusion and Mischiefs that have since broke out upon the Stage of Great Britain . 1. Cranmer's Opinions : In his Preface Mr. M. Objects to him , that he said by the Scriptures no Consecration is necessary to a Priest or Bishop ; only Appointment : and then , that the power of Excommunication depended only on the Laws of the Land : but he doth not observe that Cranmer did only humbly propose these ▪ and did not define them , as may be seen expresly in his Subscription ; nay , upon better information , retracted them , as appears by his signing Dr. Leighton's Opinion to the contrary . I confess it looks like a Providence that Cranmer should embrace some of these Opinions : For by this it plainly appears that he did not influence the Reformation so much as to make his private Opinions pass for the Doctrine of the Church , as some have with confidence enough pretended ; and Mr. M. amongst the rest , who doth dissemble ( or considering his reading doth probably not know ) the original of these mistakes in Cranmer , and some others at that time , concerning the distinction of Civil and Ecclesiastical Power , which was this ; The Pope had made a confusion of the Civil and Spiritual Power , by assuming to himself the erecting Kingdoms , transferring Rights , Dispensing with Oaths , and Deposing Princes : of all which there were fresh instances at that time particularly , the Deposing Henry VIII . and Absolving his Subjects from their Allegiance by Paul III. This having confounded the two Powers ; no wonder that men could not on a sudden clear their eyes so as exactly to see the limits ▪ or if Cranmer , being well assured of the Pope's usurpation ▪ did on the other hand at first give too much to the Prince ; which yet on second thoughts , finding himself singular in it , he recalled , and joyned with the rest in subscribing the publick Doctrine directly contrary to his former private Opinion . Burnet's first Volumn , Addenda pag. 327. Whereas the Pope the Head of Mr. M's Church was in as great an Error as Cranmer , and for which there was less ground , and yet neither He nor His Successors have retracted it to this day . Let the World judge of the Discretion of this Man who forsakes a Church , because one of the Reformers had an odd Opinion , which he Retracted and established the contrary in the Church ; and yet joyns with a Church ; whose Head at the same time professed and imposed as great an Error , and which stands yet unrecanted . § . 13. The second Objection against Cranmer , is his Recantation for fear of Death ; but let the World consider whether he or they that put him to that fear for his Religion were most guilty : and let Mr. M. say , whether he be so sure of his constancy in his new Religion , that he would be contented to be counted a Villain , if fear of Death should make him dissert it ; and then why should not he allow something to humane frailty ? § . 14. But he Objects in the third place , that Cranmer subscribed a Letter for the Exclusion of his Lawful Princess : But whoever reads the History will find that he was brought with greater difficulty then any to subscribe to her Exclusion , and not till after the King , the whole Privy-Council and Judges had Signed it ; this then was a point of Law in which he was not singular . Mr. M. takes the liberty to question Queen Elizabeth's Title , and sure it was no greater fault in Cranmer to question , Queen Mary's after the Opinion of the Judges given against her , There is great difference between Rebellion against a King of undoubted Title ; and being engaged on a side where the Title is really doubtful . The first is a great wickedness , and the last a great infelicity . § . 16. His fourth Objection is the Divorcing Queen Katherine ; but it was not only Cranmer's Opinion , but the Opinion of most learned Men in Europe , that her Marriage to the King was null . How Vertuous or Innocent soever Mr. M. reckons her , Cranmer was in the right when he and all the Bishops of England so judged it . The scruple was first raised in the King by the Ambassadors of Spain , and further confirmed by those of France before any intrigue with Anne Boleyn . § . 16. His fifth Objection is dissolving Religious Houses and Hanging up the Abbots . As to his dissolving Religious Houses , if his Councel had been taken , it had turned to the advantage of Religion and the Kingdom , and I do not find that either have lost by it as it is . As for his Hanging up the Abbots , this is one of Sanders's lyes transcribed by Heylin , in his History , who tells us of the Executing of some Abbots and other Religious Persons for their stiffness , ( if I may not call it perverseness ) in opposing the Kings desires : but this is confuted by Burnet . Who shews that the Abbots were attainted neither for stiffness nor perverseness , but downright actual Rebellion , that is taking Arms against their Sovereign , or sending Money to those that did . § . 17. Sixthly , His setting People a madding after new Lights ; that is , he allowed People the use of their Eyes and Ears , and did not think Ignorance the Mother of Devotion , or that Peoples Devotion or Religion was more acceptable to God , because they did not understand it ; of any other setting People a madding after New Lights , Cranmer never was Guilty : And thus Christianity set the World near 1700 years ago a madding , and was accused by the Heathen for it . § . 18 , But he objects , lastly , That Cromwel and Cranmer were the Ringle●ders of all that Confusion and Mischief , which has since broke out on the Stage of Britain . This is to charge them home , & would do their work in earnest , if true ; but the best of it is , that it wants proof & Truth : for the Times since the Reformation have been as signal for Piety and Justice , as any like tract of time before , and blessed with the longest and most flourishing Peace , that , perhaps ever was seen in England for the space of , at least , 80 years , in which it was carried to the highest pitch of Glory that ever it reached . And besides all this , many Confusions and Mischiefs that happened since in these Kingdoms proceeded clearly from other hands . Pray , were Cranm●r and Cromwel the Ring-leaders of Tyrone's Wars ? and of the Massacre of the Protestants in 1641 ? which were the greatest Confusions in Ireland since the Reformation . Were they the Ringleaders of four Rebellions in Henry the Eighth's time ? of the Four in Edward the Sixth's , or the Rebellion and Plots in Queen Elizabeths ? These were nevertheless some of the Confusions since on the Stage of Britain . But a great many Sects have risen since , of which the Reformation was the occasion , if we believe Mr. M. I answer , Christianity was the cause of as many , and the Grace of God it self was abused . But it is to be observed , that the first Sect that opened the Gap , and introduced all the rest was POPERY , planted among us by the Emissaries of Rome . These broke the Hedge , and shewed the way of Separation ; others only imitated them , and transcribed their Practices and Principles , thinking they might as well teach men by their own Authority , as by a Foreign Commission ; and it is like , that such as favour them now , set them on at first , purposely to make them a ●log and Objection to the Reformation . Two means we do own Papists have to prevent Sects , that we want , Ignorance and the Inquisition ▪ in a profound Ignorance , as in a dark night all things are silent ; but there will be a bustle and stir among men , while the Sun shines . And for the Inquisition , it is the true Ram to beat down Heresie , and defend the Apostolick See ; if we believe Paul the Fourth . But we beg his Holiness's Pardon ; we had rather suffer all our Sects , if they were more , than admit these Remedies ; which after all are not effectual , as we may see from the new Sects in Italy ; and we cannot think those the only fit means to prevent Divisions in Christianity , which may as well be applied to keep it out , and preserve Union amongst Infidels . CHAP. III. § . 1. AND now I come to the second Point , wherein Mr. M. was dissatisfied , which he tells us , was the Want of Confession to a Priest. There is so little looks like Reason on this Head , that it is harder to find out what he intends for Argument in it ; than to answer it . I will do him Justice , and consider even that little he has said . And that in this method . 1. I will lay down the Doctrine of our Church concerning Confession . How far she declares it necessary , and how far expedient only : from whence it will appear , that Confession is not wanting in her . 2. I will consider what he has produced in favour of its necessity , or expediency . The first of these seems necessary to be handled ; because he tells us , that he divers times discoursed with Protestant Ministers , and some Protestant Bishops , about this matter ; and was sorry to find no Harmony in their Opinions , p. 6. Now let us suppose it were true , that private men differ'd in their Opinions about some matters relating to Confession : yet it were nothing to the purpose : at least , it could be no reasonable motive to go from us to the Church of Rome , since her private Doctors differ as much about it . Some of which say , that the Priest ought to take the Penitents word , and grant him Absolution ; although he do not believe his Profession of Repentance to be sincere . Others hold , that the Confessor ought to be satisfied of the Penitents sincerity before he absolve him . Some say Attrition with Absolution is sufficient ●o obtain Remission of Sins ; others say Contrition is necessary ; which is as material a difference as almost can be . Many such differences there are amongst them , and the one party accuses the other of Heresie for their dissering Opinions ; and yet it seems this want of Harmony amongst the Roman Doctors and Bishops did not hinder Mr. M. ●rom embracing their Religion . It was therefore very partially done to leave Our Church for a pretended difference amongst our Doctors : For let us take the Difference as he represents it , and it is really no more . Some said'twas a thing allowed by the Church of England as very expedient in some Cases , but no matter of necessity ; others thought it but a Picklock of Secrets , and a matter of ill consequence . Methinks there is a very good Harmony between these , and that the same Men might have said both : at least the Opinions are easily reconciled , since both agree that in all cases it is no matter of necessity ; and neither deny , that in some cases it is very expedient : Notwithstanding which it may be in other cases , but a Pick-lock of Secrets , and matter of ill consequence . Where is the disagreement or contradiction between these two ? To give Mr. M. back one of his own Arguments , for my part I do not understand it . § 2. I have read a great many Protestant Books , and consulted both Divines and Bishops ; and do profess that I have found them very well agreed in these things . First , That every Sinner ought to be heartily sensible of every Sin he has committed , and acknowledge it before God with shame and sorrow ; and that he can expect no Pardon from God till he actually abhor and forsake the Sin. Wherever Confession is mentioned in Scripture , it is to be understood of this kind of Confession ; except the Circumstances manifestly determine the sence otherwise . This Confession alone was sufficient to obtain Remission of Sins under the Old Law , Psal. 32. 5. without Auricular Confession to a Priest. 2. It is necessary to Confess and Acknowledge such Sins as injure our Neighbours , not only to God , but likewise to the injured person ; where that Confession may be an Advantage or Satisfaction to him . Restitution must also go along with Confession if it be possible : If the injured person , or they who have a title to what was his , are not to be found ; the Restitution is to be made to God for some Charitable use , according to the advice of the Priest. This case is thus determined by God himself , Lev. 6. Numb . 5. and by Our Church in her Exhortation to the Communion . 3. Where a Sin is notorious or publick , in as much as the Church is injured by it , and the Fact falls under her Cognizance and Jurisdiction , she may call the Sinner to an account , oblige him to make publick Confession of his Guilt , and to submit to such Discipline as she judges most probable to reform him . Her Sentence of Absolution is necessary to a person thus called to an account by her , where it may be had ; neither can he be absolved from his Sin without submitting to her Orders . This appears to be the sence of our Church , from the Rubrick to the Communion and 33. Article . 4. Where theee is any doubt or scruple in a Man's mind concerning the nature of an Action , whether it be good or evil ; concerning his own Repentance , whether it be sincere and sufficient : or concerning the means and way to attain to this true Repentance : In these and the like cases the Sinner is obliged to repair to his Spiritual Guide for his Resolution , Counsel and Direction . This is commanded by Our Church in the Exhortation that gives warning for the Communion . 5. Where the sence of Guilt lyes heavy on the Conscience of a Sinner , so that there is danger of his being swallowed up by too much Grief ; he who finds his Spirit thus wounded is required to have recourse to his Spiritual Physician ; that by the Ministry of Gods word , he may receive the benefit of Absolution . As Our Church has exprest it in her Exhortation , whose words Mr. M. has corrupted ( that he might find an occasion to cavil , ) first by alledging this Proviso as hers in the matter of Confession ; if a Man be troubled with any doubts or scruples ; whereas she uses no such words ▪ either in her Office for Communion , or Visitation of the Sick : which are the two places he alledges for them . And Secondly , by leaving out these words , but if any one requires farther comfort or counsel , in this following Sentence ; If there be any of you , who by this means cannot quiet his own Conscience herein , but requires farther comfort or counsel : let him come to me , or some other discreet and learned Minister , and open his grief . Where the words he has left out make her sence plain , that she requires men to come to a Priest , not only in cases of Scruples and Doubts , but likewise of Grief for the sence of Guilt : and that she proposes Advice and Counsel as a remedy for the one , and Absolution as a remedy for the other . Which clearly destroys Mr. M's surmise ; as if Confession in our Church were for nothing else but to be resolved in our Scruples and Doubts . 6. Confession to a Priest , even of secret Sins , is counted with us an act of Mortification , and of great uses in most cases : as it is of great use and safety to consult a Physician at any time when one finds himself sick : this is prescribed by the 19th Canon of the Church of Ireland . It is counted a great Wickedness for the Priest to reveal any such Confession . And it is forbidden under the pain of irregularity , by the 64 ▪ Canon . 7. It is not necessary by any Divine Command , that a man should discover every Sin to a Priest , though he may be had , any more than it is necessary every time a man is sick to send for a Physician . And therefore Auricular Confession is not the only way for obtaining Pardon of Sins committed after Baptism . From these things , in which our Bishops and Divines are all agreed , though Mr. M. slanders them for want of harmony , it appears , that neither publick nor private Confession is wanting in our Church , and it can no more be said that Confession to a Priest is wanting in her , because she doth not oblige all People to it under penalty of Damnation , then a City can be said to want Water , where the Fountains are full and open , only because Men are not obliged under pain of Death to use them . If therefore Mr. M. means any thing when he professes himself dissatisfied with the want of Confession to a Priest ; he must mean , the want of a Law to oblige all men who hope for pardon of any sin , to confess it in particular to the Priest , and receive his Absolution for it . We must own that we have no such Law in our Church . But the reason of that want is , because neither Christ nor his Apostles left us any such . § 3. It was incumbent on him , before he left our Church on that account , to produce this Law , and shew Confession to be otherwise necessary than is taught and practised by her . Let us us therefore examine what he has said on this head . And here the only thing produced by him for the necessity of Confession to a Priest , which looks like an Argument , is contained in these words . p. 7. If we confess our Sins , God is faithful and just to forgive us our Sins , saith St. John. Faithful and Just , to what ? even to his own promise which he hath thrice repeated in the Gospel ; whosesoever Sins ye remit , they are remitted unto them ; but other promise that he will do it without the Ministry of his Priests , we read not in the New Testament . In answer to this Argument , I will shew , 1. That the words If we confess our Sins , do not concern Confession to a Priest. 2. When God is said to be Faithful and Just , it doth not particularly respect that promise , John 20. 23. Whosesoever sins ye remit , they are remitted unto them . 3. If it did respect this Promise , and the Ministry of a Priest were granted to be absolutely necessary to the pardon of Sins ; yet it would not follow that Auricular Confession were necessary . § 4. First , the words of St. John 1 Ep. 1. 9. If we confess our sins , do not concern Confession to a Priest : but were designed by the Apostle to oblige every man to acknowledge and confess that he is a sinner , and that he needs Repentance and the Blood of Christ for his salvation ; which will appear from the occasion and circumstances of this place . I think it is agreed that St. John wrote these words in opposition to the Disciples of Simon Magus , who taught , as St. Irenoeus informs us , that such as were perfect among them , and had that Principle they called S●lt and Light could not ●in : Not but that they were guilty of the greatest villanies : but they reckoned nothing in themselves sin , because they walked in Light and Truth , while the rest of the world were in Darkness , as they pretended . In opposition to these , St. John shews us , v. 8. that if we pretend thus to be without sin , we deceive our selves , and the truth is not in us , but if we own and acknowledge our sins , and heartily endeavour to avoid them ; then the Blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin , according to Gods promise , who gave his only begotten Son , that whosoever believes in him might not perish . It is plain , from vers . 10. that such as refused to confess their sins , according to St. John , made God a lyar . Now this is litterally true of those who deny that they are sinners , as those Hereticks did : but to deny the necessity of a particular enumeration of sins to a Priest , doth no ways impeach Gods truth : and therefore the Confession required by these words , if we confess our sins is not Auricular . This is farther manifest from the ancient Fathers of the Church , not one of which understand these words of Confession to a Priest. St. Augustine has written a Comment on this Epistle , and he thus explains this place . If thou confess that thou art a sinner , the truth is in thee — Tell men what thou art ; tell God what thou art . If thou tell not God what thou art , God will damn what he finds in thee . If thou wouldst not that he should damn , condemn thou . Occumenius refers this whole passage to the Jews . If we who said his Blood be on us , and on our Children , should impudently say that we have not sinned , we deceive our selves — but if we acknowledge and confess this sin , he will forgive us . Which sufficiently shews , that by confessing our sins here , is meant the acknowledging our selves to be sinners , in opposition to those who plead innocency : And that this has no relation to a particular Confession of Sins to a Priest. Sect. 5. But 2. When God is said to be Faithful and Just , it doth not particularly respect that Promise , John 20. 23. Whose Sins you remit they are remitted ; which is sufficiently proved from this Argument that no ancient interpreter has thus applyed them ; but on the contrary have referred them to other Promises . Thus St. Cyprian refers them to that Petition in the Lords Prayer , Forgive us our Trespasses , and interprets Confessing in St. John by this Petition in the Prayer ; to which he saith , Forgiveness is promised , St. John therefore saith , that God who keeps his Promise is faithful to forgive Sins , because he who hath taught us to pray for our sins , hath promised , that his Fatherly Mercy and Pardon shall follow . The Roman Gloss saith , God is faithful , who promised Grace to the humble . Oecumenius refers this to Isaiah 43. 26. Where according to the Septuagint Translation , the words are , tell thy sins first , that thou mayest be justified . Which is ushered in with that promise , v. 25. I , even I am he , that blotteth out thy Transgressions for mine own sake , and will not remember thy sins . Lyra saith , God is faithful to forgive us our Sins , because he promised so , Mat. 3. 2. Repent ye for the Kingdom of God is at hand . You see that the ancient Interpreters could find other Promises both in the Old and New Testament , which obliged God to forgive Sins before Auricular Confession is pretended to be instituted ; and not one of them dreamed that St. John had relation to that promise ; beside which Mr , M. affirms there is not another in the New Testament . How will he reconcile this to his profession of Faith , in which he promises never to interpret Scripture , but according to the unanimous consent of the Fathers ? When there is not one Father to vouch his sence of this place , and several against him . § 6. But 3. Suppose , that consequence followed from this place which he infers that God will not remit Sins under the new Testament , without the Ministry of his Priests : Yet it would not follow that Auricular Confession is necessary ; because under the old Law the Sins of the People were not pardoned without the Ministry of Gods Priests , and yet it is confessed that Auricular Confession was not then instituted . Besides if the Ministry of the Priest be necessary , why should that be understood rather of their private than publick Ministry ? And lastly , their Ministry may be necessary on other accounts than hearing Confessions and pronouncing Absolutions . Thus Oecumenius makes the Forgiveness of Sins here promised to be that Remission which is obtained in Baptism . Therefore ( saith he ) God doth certainly remit Sins to them that come to his holy Baptism . St. Chrysostome , who wrote his Books De Sacerdotio , purposely to magnisie the Priests Office , interprets the promise in St. John 20. 23. by the power of admitting to Baptism , and the Lords Supper : together with the Priests Intercession and Prayers for Sinners ; but he says not one word of their remitting by an Absolution or Judicial Sentence . Who soever knows St. Chrisostom , must own that if he had known or believed such a magnificent power in the Priests , he wou'd never have omitted it , in Books written designedly to magnifie their Office . I conclude therefore that although the Ministry of the Priests under the Gospel is necessary to the pardon of the Peoples Sins : Yet that Ministry may consist in the use of their Directions , Prayers , Intercession , and Sacraments ; and I believe Mr. M. will hardly be able to shew any other way of Absolution used by the ancient Church . Nay , St Cyprian denies that Priests properly forgive Sins ; because all that they can do is to put men in a way to be forgiven . Sect. 7. The second thing Mr. M. intends for an Argument in favour of Confession , is what he alledges , p. 7. that Confession is approved and frequented by all the Christian World , except the People of our Islands , and some few others that call themselves reformed ; and further p. 8. that it was never heard of in the Catholick Church that Christians may receive the communion of Christs Body and Blood without a previous confession and Absolution . Which if true , proves this Doctrine to be Catholick both as , to time and place ; but the best of it is , that we are not bound to take his word . And that upon Examination this will be found false in both the parts of it . For neither do all other Christians beside the Reformed frequent and approve Auricular Confession otherwise than our Church doth : Nor is it any new thing in the Catholick Church for Men to come to the Communion without private Confession and Absolution by a Priest. The whole Greek Church denies Auricular Confession to be of divine Right , pretending it only to be a positive and Ecclesiastical constitution : And they give the Communion to Laicks both in health and sickness , though they have not before confest their Sins to a Priest ; and that because they are perswaded that Confession is Arbitrary , and that Faith is the only and true preparative for receiving the Eucharist . So Father Simon shews from Caucus Venetus in his Religion and Customs of the Eastern Nations , p. 8. Lond. Ed. 1685. and he owns that Caucus has asserted nothing as to that point which doth not agree to the real belief of the Greeks , p. 13. Of the Christians of St. Thomas in India , he relates from Meneses , that they abominate Auricular Confession , p. 94. And though he pretends this to be an abuse introduced into that Church , p. 102. yet he produces nothing but his own conjecture to prove it so , and acknowledges , that most in the East think not themselves obliged to it by Divine Right : and consequently it may either be used or laid aside as the Church thinks convenient . We learn the same from the Gloss of their own Canon Law ; where we are told , that Confession to a Priest is better said to be instituted by a certain Tradition of the universal Church , then from the Authority of the Old or new Testament . This Tradition of the Church obliges as a Command , and therefore with us ( he means the Church of Rome ) Confession of mortal Sins is necessary . But is not necessary with the Greeks , because they have no such Tradition . Here is a Tradition pretended of the Universal Church , and yet an acknowledgment , that at least one half of that Church has no such Tradition : which is as good sence as Roman Catholick . However I take this to be a Demonstration , that Confession is no otherways approved and frequented by the Christian World ; ( except the Church of Rome ) than it is by the Reformed . That is , it is looked on by all , but Mr. M's Church , as a piece of Ecclesiastical Discipline only , and then it may be used or dispensed with , as the Church sees most for her Edification . § 8. This is not only the Opinion of the greater part of the present Visible , but it was so likewise of the Ancient Church : Though Mr. M. tells us with confidence enough , that it was never heard in the Catholick Church till Henry VIII . that any was admitted to the Communion without Confession . Yet we find direct proof to the contrary in Antiquity : a Socrates tells us , that Nectarius Bishop of Constantinople , took away the Priest that was appointed for Confessions since the time of the Decian Persecution , and gave free leave , that every one should come to the participation of the Holy Sacrament , as his own Conscience directed him . b And Sozo men adds , that the Bishops of almost all other Churches imitated him . c Gratian proposes the Authorities for and against the necessity of Confession , and leaves it to the Readers Judgment which he will believe . d And the Gloss on that is very remarkable . In the year 1150. in the time of Gratian , nothing was defined or commanded concerning the necessity of Confession by the Church : For if there had , Gratian had not been ignorant of it nor omitted it , but Confession with the Mouth was introduced near an hundred years after by Innocent III. Thus the Roman Gloss , and the Reader must judge , whether he will believe Mr. M. who affirms , that Auricular Confession was always necessary , or the Canon Law and Gloss , that says , it was made necessary about the year 1215 : That is not full three hundred years before Henry VIII . so late is this Sacrament even in the Roman Church , and the Doctrine of its necessity . § 9. The third Argument Mr. M. produces for Confession , is grounded on the inconveniencies that arise from the want thereof : He tells us , that Protestant Sermons have some Authority upon the People , but not much for lack of this curb on their Vices , p. 6. Now whether Sermons or Auricular Confession are the greatest curb to Vice ; can only be judged by Experience ; and let that determine whether Protestants or Papists are most Licentious : Let us compare Protestant Countries with Popish , and see where Vice doth most abound . Let us look into Germany , Denmark , Switzerland , the Low Countries , England and Scotland , and compare them with Italy , France , and Spain ; and let any one judge which are most corrupt in their Morals , or most happy in their Government . Among our selves , Let us compare the Protestants who have lived in prosperity these last thirty years , and consequently have been most lyable to corruption , with the Papists that have been in adversity , and consequently are at the best : and from these , we shall discern what a mighty curb Confession is on the Vices of Men. Lastly , Compare the times before the Reformation , with what has been since , and we shall find even Rome it self at this day reformed to what it was : which shews that the Light of Truth , which we propose to our People is not so weak a curb on Men's Vices , as Mr. M. would persuade us . This second inconveniency he alledges from the wont of Confession is the encouragement it must needs give People to sin , when they consider they are not obliged to give an account for their Sins . So ( p. 6. ) Catholiques commit sin , 't is true ; but call themselves to an account for it by Confession and Submission to their ghostly Fathers . Protestants sin likewise without calling themselves to any such reckoning ; because they can make a shift without it . And again ( p. 7. ) I pray the Reader to consider whether private Sinners in the Church of England do not offend God at a cheaper rate than in the Church of Rome ; since in the Church of Rome they are bound to some Penance ; but in the Church of England they may confess to their Ministers , and do Penance if they will , or if they will not , they may let it alone . To which I answer , That the Church of England hath no Tax of Sins , nor doth She promise Pardon of Sins upon the performance of any external action whatsoever , whether it cost the performer dear or cheap . But she tells her People , according to the Scriptures , that there is no other way to be forgiven our sins , but be heartily turning from them ; that a good Life , and sincere Obedience to the Commandments of God through Faith in Christ are the only means to escape Damnation . And that according as every one is certain of the sincerity of his own heart , he may be certain of Heaven , and no otherwise . Let us then compare the Doctrine of the two Churches together , and let the Reader judge , who teaches the easiest method for Pardon of Sins . Saith the Church of Rome ; If any be so affected in his mind , that he is sorry for the sins he hath committed , and design not to sin for the future , although he be not touched with such a sorrow , as may be sufficient to obtain Pardon : Nevertheless when he confesses duly to a Priest , he doth by the Power of the Keys obtain Remission and Forgiveness for all his Villanies . Saith the Church of England ; Repent you truly for your sins past , have a lively Faith in Christ our Saviour ; amend your Lives , and be , in perfect Charity with all Men ; so shall ye be meet partakers of these holy Mysteries ▪ . The Church of Rome sees the difference of these two , and pretends , that Confession was appointed by the Mercy of God , to make Pardon the more easie . For , Let us grant it , faith she , that Sins could be blotted out by Contrition . — Yet in as much as few could come to this degree , it must happen that very few could expect Pardon of Sins this way . The true Intention of Confession , and of all other parts of Christian Discipline is Amendment of the Peoples Lives . And it will be found that Men do not come to Confession so much to help them to live well for the future , as to ease themselves from the Trouble that the memory of their Sins past create them , and when by Absolution they are eased of the sense of their former Guilt , they are apt to think they may begin on a new score . And hence it often happens , that Men are more negligent after Confession than before . And let never so much care be taken to prevent this abuse which Mr. Arnauld confesses almost Universal : while People believe that the Priest can forgive them their sins , as soon as they are sorry for them , and purpose to forsake them , it is impossible it should be removed . Whereas when a Man is referred to his own Conscience , as the final judge of his own Condition ; and told that he damns himself if he be partial . And that no other Sorrow or Repentance for Sin can save him , but such as will in earnest prevail with him to forsake his Sins , and live a good Life . In this case a Man will find it much easier to satisfie the Priest , and obtain Absolution from him ; than to satisfie his own Conscience . Nay , after all , the Priest can only judge of a Mans Repentance from his own Mouth , and if the Man be partial , or mistaken in his own sincerity , the Priest must be so too , and his Absolution insignificant . And therefore our Church , who lays the efficacy of Absolution on the sincerity of the Penitents Contrition and Faith , and tells her People , that her Absolution is only Conditional , deals more severely , and sincerely too , with her Penitents , than the Roman Church , who lays the chief stress on the outward Absolution of the Priest. The Matter of Fact appears to be really thus , from the practice of the lewdest Livers amongstus , who often take Sanctuary in that Church , and without any amendment of Life , live in hopes of that Salvation in her , which they know they could not hope for in ours . § 11. The last Argument Mr. M. urges for Confession , is the Interest of the Priest ; faith he , The Church of England , for want of Confession , appears to me to have lost that Interest in the Consciences of the People , which both the Roman and the Greek Priests are happy in at this day . I do believei n my Conscience this Argument goes a great way with Mr. M. and not only with him , but with all those Priests who value their Interest as he does . But he would have done well to have told us , what that interest is , in which the Priests count themselves happy . For the Priests have counted themselves happy sometimes in an interest , which contributed very little to the happiness of the People . In short , we neither do , nor ought to covet any other interest with our People , than the power of doing and making them good ; and God be thanked , we have as much of that interest , as any Clergy of the World ; and dare compare the Lives of our People , with the Lives of either Greeks or Romans . It was therefore some other interest which brought in Auricular Confession , & in which Mr. M. would count himself happy . I shall not determine what that may be , which Mr. M. could not find in our Church ; only he must know , that among us truly mortified , diligent , sober , prudent Clergy-men , who continually reside on their Cures , and shew themselves an Example to their Flocks in meekness , humility , watchfulness and charity , have no reason to complain that they want interest with their People . But there are some that think it too dear a purchase at that rate , and therefore had rather come at it another way . That is , by perswading people that they can forgive them their Sins , though perhaps they are nothing bettered by Confessing . Thus Mr. M. seems to state the case : What if some Catholicks are never the better for it ? What are many Protestants the better for all the Sermons they hear , and Sacraments they receive ? If we confess our Sins , God is faithful and just to forgive us our Sins . What ? though we are never the better for Confessing . If that be Mr. M's meaning , and he believes himself , he had reason in earnest to change his Church : For he may be sure we have no such Catholick Doctrine . CHAP. IV. § 1. MR. M. tells ▪ us , that the third difficulty that stuck with him , was the Answer given by Protestants to that Question , Where is that one Holy Catholick Church which we do profess to believe in the two Creeds ? To this he adds several other Questions : Was there any such Society as one Holy Catholick Church extant upon the face of the Earth , when Cranmer began his Reformation ? What Provinces of the Earth did this Church inhabit ? Did Cranmer believe himself a Member of it ? Who gave him Authority to Reform this one Catholick and Apostolick Church ? To set up Altar against Altar , &c. p. 8. To each of these Questions I will give a distinct Answer , and shew how little Reason any one has to make a difficulty of them . To the first , Where is that one Holy Catholick and Apostolick Church which we profess to believe in the two Creeds ? I Answer , not in any one place or Province exclusively to the rest , but in all places where Men professing the Faith of Christ , live under their Lawful Pastors or Spiritual Governors . 'T is by these two marks we must find the Catholick Church , if we would not mistake the Society of Schismaticks and Hereticks , nay of Heathens for her . Where-ever we find the Faith of Christ , and the Persons professing it , living in submission to their Regular Pastors ; there we have found a branch of the Catholick Church ; and to that Society we ought to be ready to unite ourselves in this Profession and Submission . But Mr. M. by his eagerness to have us assign the ubi , or place where to find this Church , seems to imagine , that there is some one place , or ubi , where she is always to be found . At least , that there is some where a Head and Principle of Unity , by union to which , the Society is made one . But we deny any other Head or Principle of unity to this Society , besides Christ Jesus . And we believe , that to assign any such on Earth , is to destroy the very notion of the Catholick Church , and make her as particular as the Jewish Synagogue , out of which no Person or Nation was excluded , so they would turn Proselytes , any more than they are excluded out of the Church of Rome , if they will embrace her Faith , and submit to her Government . But the Church is called Catholick , in opposition to such a particular Society ; because she consists of many such Societies , which have in every Nation the same Priviledges , which were before peculiar to the Jews . And these particular Churches are intire Bodies in themselves , not made accountable by Christ or his Apostles to any Foreign Church , as to a Head , but only as to a Sister . Neither is the union of these particular Churches into one Catholick Church , an union of subjection to one visible Head , but an union of Faith and Charity under our visible Head Christ. When therefore Mr. M. asks in what Provinces of the Earth this Church doth inhabit ? I answer , in most Provinces of the World ; in more by many than he or his Church will allow . Let him read St. Augustine on the 85 Psalm , and he will tell him the sin of those that confine the Church to a Province , or corner of the World , to a Sect or Party of Christians . § 2. To this second Question , Was there any such Society upon the face of the Earth , when Cranmer began his Reformation ? I answer , there was , and the several branches of it were dispersed through many Provinces in Europe , Asia and Africa . The Church of England was one branch thereof , such she has continued ever since , and we hope will continue to the end of the World : And therefore he might have spared the labour which he has spent to prove that there was extant such a Church on the face of the Earth ; since we believe as firmly as he can desire , that according to our Saviour's Prediction , the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against the Catholick Church . § 3. To this third Question , Did Cranmer believe himself a Member of this Church ? I answer , He did . And being placed by Providence in an eminent station in the Church , and the Care and Government of so considerable a part thereof being ▪ committed to his charge , he found himself obliged by the Laws of God and Man to remove those things he apprehended to be Corruptions and Abuses . And if they were really such , who but Mr. M. can doubt his Authority do do it in a regular way ? And therefore to his fourth Question , Who gave him Authority to Reform this one Holy Catholick Church , and to set up Altar against Altar ? I answer , No body ; he never attempted the one or the other . He never attempted to Reform the Catholick Church , because he had neither Power or Inspection over her . Nor did he ever pretend to make any Law to oblige her . He only endeavoured to cultivate and reform that part of her that was committed to his Care. And he must have lost his Understanding , or renounced it , that doth not see that this is the Duty of every Bishop , nay of every Parish-Priest in his sphere ; and therefore except Mr. M. can shew that Cranmer went beyond his sphere , he talks and asks questions to no purpose . I suppose that I have already shewn that Cranmer did not exceed his Authority in his proceedings at the Reformation . And as he did not pretend to reform the Catholick Church , so neither did he set up Altar against Altar . There was no Schism made by him in England ; the Division of Communion was made long after , about the Tenth of Queen Elizabeth , on the Bull of Pius V. Heylin ad Ann. 1564. & 1565. p. 172. § 4. Mr. M. seems to have nothing to object against all this ; only he insinuates that the Reformation supposes the Catholick Church to be lapsed into Idolatry : And if she were guilty of Idolatry , she should be no Christian Church : And then there is an end of the Episcopal Succession of the Church of England , and consequently of the Church it self . There is not one step in this Argument , but is justly liable to exception . I shall only desire the Reader to consider these few things , and then judge , whether Mr. M. can be supposed to have examined this matter , either diligently or impartially . 1. The Reformation may be justified without charging the Church of Rome , or any other Christian Church with Idolatry . 2. The Idolatry with which we commonly charge that Church , is not inconsistent with the Being of a Church , or Succession of Bishops . 3. The Argument Mr. M. has produced , to prove the Impossibility of a Christian Churches teaching and practising Idolatry , is weak and inconclusive . Sect. 5. First , The Reformation may be justified without charging the Church of Rome , or any other Christian Church with Idolatry : Because there were many confessed and notorious Abuses in the Church that needed Reformation , besides what we count Idolatrous . And the Governors of the Church were obliged to reform them whether they were Idolatrous or no ; except Mr. M. thinks that nothing but Idolatry can need Reformation . Prayer in an unknown Tongue , the half Communion , the ludicrous and antique Ceremonies of the Mass , private Masses and Indulgences , Appeals and Foreign Jurisdiction , with many other things were removed by the Reformers ; not because they counted them Idolatrous , but because they were great Abuses and Deviations from the Primitive Rules and Practice of the Church . The things in the Roman Church , which we commonly charge with Idolatry , are the Worship of Images , the Invocation of Saints , and Adoration of the Host : Now the Reformation would neither be unjustisiable nor unnecessary , tho we should reckon these practises only in the same rank of abuses with the former . We need not therefore charge the Church of Rome with Idolatry , to justifie our first Reformers . But whatever be said as to that , he may assure himself we never did , nor will charge the Catholick Church with any such Crime . She never decreed either worship of Images , or adoration of the Host. § 6. But secondly , the Idolatry with which we charge the Church of Rome , is not inconsistent with the being of a Church , or Succession of Bishops . I do consess there is an Idolatry , inconsistent with all true Religion ; that is , when Men renounce the true God , and worship a false one in his stead . But there is another Idolatry , that consisteth in worshipping a false God with , or in Subordination to the true . And a third , which Men incurr by giving some part of that honour to a Creature , which God has reserved sor himself ; or asking those things of Creatures , which God only can give : And 't is with this last the Church of Rome stands charged . Now not only Doctor Stilling fleet , whom he confesses he never read , but * Primate Bramhall also , ( whom he pretends to have seen ) have proved that some practice of this kind of Idolatry , as well as some other Sins , may consist with the Being of a Church . But what shall we say to a Man who understands but little himself , and will not be persuaded to read those who can inform him . Who takes this opinion by hear say , as if it were peculiar to one Author ; whereas it is the common sense of our Controvertists . Which I think is a Demonstration , that not withstanding what he pretends ( p. 1. ) he is yet to begin to study the Controversie between both Churches . He confesses he did not understand this matter ; and then let the World judge , whether it was done like a Man who either loved , or designed truth , to write against a thing before he undrstood it . § 7. In order to help his understanding , he would do well to consider , 1. Whether to teach and practice Idolatry , destroy the very Being of a Christian , more then of a Jewish Church . Now it is plain that the Jewish Church both taught and practised Idolatry , and is charged as Idolatrous ; 1. When Aaron with the whole Congregation , sacrificed to the Calf : and afterwards , when the Kings of Judah establish'd Idolatry in the very Temple of God : In which Idolatry the Priests , Prophets , Princes and People concurr'd ; as we may see , Jer. 2. 26. and yet neither their succession nor Church fail'd Sect. 8. 2. The Primitive Church did not look on all Idolatry as destructive of the Being and Succession of a Church : Because she allowed the Succession of those she counted Idolaters . Such she reckoned the Arians , as we may learn from Athanasius and Gregory Nyssen ; and yet the Succession of the Arians was allowed in a Felix , Bishop of Rome . In b Meletius , Bishop of Antioch . And lastly , in the Bishops of Spain , who had been Arians from their first Conversion , till the time of their King Ricaredus , in whose Reign they turned Catholicks , and proceeded in that Reformation at the same rate our Reformers proceeded in Ours . c If Mr. M. had lived among them , he would have told them that they were no Bishops , nor had any Church : Because their Predecessors for several Generations had taught and practised Idolatry . And if we believe him , surely that destroys the very Being of a Christian Church . But neither these Bishops , nor the Church of that Age were of his Mind . And therefore they went on in their Business , and settled their Church without troubling any body to assist them . And though they had no other Ordination or Sacraments , than what they had received from Arians , ( that is from much worse Idolaters than the Papists are counted ) yet no body ever questioned their Church or Succession . But Mr. M. and his party , love to cut short God's Church and Inheritance , and seem afraid too many should go to Heaven . And therefore when any thing in a Church doth not please them , they immediately un Church her , and send her Members to Hell : Imitating exactly in this , as they do in their Re-ordination , the Heretical Donatists . Whom d St. Augustine sharply reproves for their Uncharitableness . Sect. 9. But 3. Mr. M. is the more inexcusable ; because the Argument he brings , to prove the Inconsistency of Idolatry and a Christian Church , is so very trisling and inconclusive . For ( saith he ) what agreement hath the Temple of God with Idols , and what concord hath Christ with Belial ? For ye are the Temple of the Living God ; what Communion hath Light with Darkness ? 2 Cor. 6. 16. What! Idolaters , and yet a true Church ? 'T is as much as to say , they are in the way to Heaven and Hell at the same time , p. 8. In answer to this , I must desire the Reader to look into the place of Scripture here quoted , and observe that the Sentences are broken , and mangled , and transposed ; either out of Design , or , as I am apt to think , out of meer thoughtlessness . If he had given it whole , the Reader would easily have perceived its weakness ; for it is not only said , What agreement hath the Temple of God with Idols ? v. 16. but likewise , What Fellowship hath Righteousness with Unrighteousness ? and , What Communion hath Light with Darkness ? v. 14. If then , according to Mr. M. Idolatry destroy the very Being of a Church , because there is no agreement between the Temple of God and Idols : why shall not every Unrighteousness or Sin destroy likewise the Being of a Church ? Since there is no fellowship between Righteousness and Unrighteousness ; no communion between Light and Darkness . May not I argue as he doth , What! Unrighteousness and a true Church ? 'T is as much as to say , they are in the way to Heaven and Hell at the same time . This is the very Argument by which * Petilian the Donatist endeavoured to unchurch all other Christians besides his own Sect , and annul all other Baptism besides his own parties : because he pretended they communicated with wicked Men ; and there could be no fellowship between Righteousness and Unrighteousness , between Believers and Unbelievers . How then could an Unbeliever regenerate a Believer in Baptism ? There is indeed no agreement between Idolatry and a true Church ; no more is there between her and any other Sin. But things that have no agreement do not immediately destroy one another . It doth not follow therefore , that to teach & practice any Sin , destroys the very Being of a true Church . Rebellion is as the sin of Witchcraft , that is , equal to one of the worst kinds of Idolatries ; shall therefore every Society of Men , that teaches & practices Rebellion , cease to be a Church ? I hope Mr. M. will not say it . I do not say any Society of Men ever taught Treason , or Rebellion , or Idolatry to be lawful ; for this would indeed un-church them : But many have comanded such practices , & taught them to be lawful , which being put in execution , were really treasonable , rebellious , or idolatrous . Thus the Council of Later an commanded Temporal Lords who did not purge their Dominions of Hereticks , to be deposed by the Pope ; and absolved their Subjects from their Allegiance . And thus the Council of Lyons deposed Frederick the Emperor . The one of these taught , and the other practiced Rebellion . Must we therefore un-church these Councils ? * Pope Paul III. and his Faction taught and commanded the Subjects of Henry VIII . to depose their Prince . † Pius V. taught and commanded the Subjects of Queen Elizabeth to do the like to her . These were all acts of Treason or Usurpation : and sure these are the way to Hell as well as Idolatry . And then to say , those that were guilty of such things , were Members of the Catholick Church , is according to Mr. M. to say they were in the way to Hell and Heaven at the same time ; but such Arguments must be taken from him where there are no better . CHAP. V. § 1. THe third part of Mr. M's Pamphlet , consists of a confused mass of particulars , without any order or connexion ; one would think it had been taken from the mouth of one who had spoken it ex tempore , and had never been allowed the liberty to revise it . There are at least five offers at a conclusion . Saith he , p. 9. to conclude , p. 10. in a word , p. 11. in sine , next paragraph on the whole matter , p. 12. after all his concluding , he must have a word or two before he make an end , p. 13. he promises to say no more , and yet he cannot forbear adding two or three things , nothing to the purpose . Thus he says and unsays , and labours in a heap of confusion . And when all is done , he puts things in a less advantageous Light , than has been done by many of his Brethren before him . I shall bring what he says , such as it is , into this method . 1st . I will consider what he says in order to vindicate , or recommend his new Church . And 2ly . Wherein he criminates ours . § 2. He endeavours to vindicate his new Church in her Devotions ; as to the Direction of them : as to their being in an unknown Tongue ; and as to their being made before Images . He endeavours to recommend her , from the excellency of her Prayers , and from the Devotion and Unity of her People . As to the direction of her Prayers ; he tells us , That instead of Idolatry , he found most elevated and judicious Prayers to the Holy Trinity ; concluding in the Name of our Saviour Jesus Christ , p. 9. and he asks , Do Roman Catholicks ever say Mass to any other object but the living Father , Son , and Holy Ghost ? p. 12. Now if all the Prayers in the Mass be so very elevated and judicious , and all said to the Trinity only ; then God forgive the wickedness of those People who quarrel at this , and persecute it with so blind and furious Aversion . But soft and fair Mr. M. consider they are Hereticks you pray for , and ten to one either do not deserve , or do not need your Charity . For suppose the Prayers in the Mass were never so judicious , and never so well directed ; yet for ought the People know , or any assurance they have besides the honesty of the Priest , the Prayers may be Conjuring , or Cursing ; directed to Jupiter or Mahomet ; and therefore 't is your own Fault that people persecute them with so blind and furious Aversion ; since you keep the people in that blindness , and will not let them understand their Prayers , that they may admire their Judiciousness . § 3. But 2ly . It is to be considered , that the Mass was patched up in a barbarous and ignorant Age , though many of the Materials are old ; and the composition is such , that all , even of the Roman Communion , are not satisfied concerning the Judiciousness of the Prayers in it . In so much that a Cassander , who was a little better acquainted with it then Mr. M. confesses the phrase is obscure , even to Learned Men : that the Canon is difficult , and that sometimes there is a sudden jump from one sence of a word to another . Cassander was no perverse ill-natured Phanatick , but a learned and ingenuous Roman Catholick : and yet he finds fault with this Prayer Mr. M. has produc'd , and others of the like importance in the Mass ; because they are improperly used as Masses are now celebrated : for these Prayers have respect ( as he tells us ) to an ancient custom in the Church now gone out of use ; and agree chiefly to a Solemn Mass , in which there is supposed to be a Communion and Congregation of the people that have offered Bread and Wine . This Bread and Wine offered by the People , is that immaculate Sacrifice offered up by the Priest in the Prayer mentioned by Mr. M. And where neither People are present , nor any Offering is made by them , this Prayer , and several others in the Mass , make a hard shift to gain the Estimation of either Sence or Truth , much less of Judiciousness . And has given occasion to some , to abuse the Mass to Superstition ; and to others , to condemn it as Impious . How can a Priest , with either Judgment or Truth , offer a Sacrifice for all present , as the Prayers direct him to do ; even in a solitary Mass , when none is present or near him ? But 3ly . As all the Prayers in the Mass are not judiciously contrived , so neither are they all said to the Trinity ; the very Sacrifice being offered up for the Honour of Saints and Angels , and to obtain of them their Intercession : besides several Prayers made to them for the same purpose , directly contrary to what we learn from Saint Augustine to have been the Practice of the ancient Church . § 4. Mr. M. seems aware of this Objection , and hints at three Answers to it . 1st . That Presbyterians object as much against that Canticle in the Common-Prayer-Book , called Benidecite . 2dly . That the Roman Catholick ascribe nothing to Angels or Saints , but as the Ministers of God And 3dly . That the Angels must know our affairs , and the Saints have intelligence from them ; and therefore we pray to them . 1. He assures us , That the Reader shall find Protestants objecting nothing against Consessing , and Praying to Saints and Angels ; but what Presbyterians do against that Canticle in the Common-Prayer-Book , called Benedicite omnia opera . O Ananias , Azarias and Misael , praise ye the Lord , is as rank Popery with Presbyterians , as any thing in the Mass , or Litanies of our Lady , p. 9. Now except he be able to shew where the Presbyterians have declared this as their sence , we can count him no better than a Slanderer . For my part I do prosess , that I never yet met with one single Presbyterian so silly as to make this Apostrophe for an Invocation of dead Men , who do not hear us . The disparity of the case is so manifest between our Church and the Roman , that it is hardly possible any should mistake . * The Roman Church has determined that it is good and prositable humbly to invocate the Saints , and to flee to their Prayers , Help and Assistance . a Our Church has declared Invocation of Saints to be a fond thing , vainly invented . To parallel therefore the Presbyterian Objection ( if any such there be ) against us ; with ours against the Papists on this Head , is to shift off an Objection , which did not easily admit of an Answer . § 5. Let us see if this second Answer be any better ; which is , that the Roman Catholicks attribute nothing to Angels or Saints , but as the Ministers and Favourites of the Living God , receiving from him whatever understanding they have of our affairs , p. 12. But what then ? May not Men ascribe more to Favourites than the King allows them , and is not that an encroachment on his Prerogative ? If Mr. M. will shew us , where God allows us to make Prayers to Saints , to erect Images for their Worship , burn Incense before them , dedicate Churches to their Honour , make Vows to them , or devote Orders and Societies of Men as slaves to their Service , he will indeed vindicate his Church against the Reformation : for in possession of all these , the first Reformers found them , and justly concluded it safest to lay them aside , as too much to be allowed Favourites out of our own head , without the express Declaration of the Princes Will. But if he cannot shew that God allows them these things , it will be the safest way , and no hurt for him or us , to lot them alone . § 6. His third Answer or pretence is no less insufficient : where he alledges , that the Angels must know our affairs , because they are ministring Spirits , sent forth for the good of those who shall be heirs of Salvation ; and because they rejoice at the Conversion of sinners : and have glorified Saints no Communication or Intelligence with the Angels ? p. 13. To which I answer , That these allegations neither justifie the Invocation , nor the worship of Angels or Saints . It is true , the Angels are ministring Spirits ; but we neither know which of them are assigned to minister unto us , nor when they are present . These things depend altogether on the immediate Will of God ; and therefore it is to Him not Them we are to apply our selves , if we would obtain their Care and Ministry for our good . 'T is true likewise , that the Saints and Angels rejoyce at our Conversion , when that Conversion comes to their knowledge . But that place in St. Luke 15. 7. I say unto you , Joy shall be in Heaven over on● sinner that repents , more than over ninety nine just Persons , doth no more prove that the Angels in Heaven know all the Conversions on Earth , or that we ought to pray to them ; than my saying , That there is more joy in Rome over one such Proselite as Mr. M. than over ninety nine born Roman Catholicks , doth prove that I believe such Conversions are all known there ; and that therefore Mr. M. may go into his Closet , and pray to the Cardinals , because it is plain his Affairs are known at Rome . Lastly , 'T is true , that the glorified Saints have Communication with the Angels , and may receive intelligence of our Affairs from them ; and therefore I would advise Mr. M. to send his Service and Requests to them by the next Angel he meets going that way . But because Angels pass and repass from Heaven to Earth , to conclude that we may at all times , and in all places , with mind and voice pray to Saints , is as foolish , as to conclude , because we have Posts pass from London to Dublin , that therefore a Man here may beg the assistance of his Friends Prayers who are in London , every time he goes to his knees . This is the wise Vindication Mr. M. has made for his Church , as to the Direction of some of her Prayers . § 7. The second thing which Mr. M. undertakes to vindicate in his Church , is her using a Tongue unknown to the People in all her publick Devotions , and Services . And it happens to him in this , as it does in most other things ; if all that he says were granted him , it would neither justifie his Church , nor condemn the Reformation ; since not one of his Arguments so much as pretend , to prove a known Tongue unlawful in the publick Service of God , or an unknown Tongue expedient : which will appear on the Examination . He alledges therefore , 1. That the Objection of its being said in the Latin Tongue , allows every one to hear it that understands Latin. A great favour indeed . Who can after this , accuse the Roman Church of keeping Men ignorant of her Service ? It is plain from our very Objection that they may hear it , if they but understand Latin ; and 't is their own fault if they do not understand it : 'T is only spending seven or eight years to acquire the Latin Tongue , and then they may undestand some part of her Service . But pray what is this to the illiterate World , who are past the age of learning Latin ? What is this to the Poor , who are the bulk of the World , and have the best and most peculiar Title to the Gospel ; and yet have neither capacity nor opportunity to learn Latin ? Mr. M. bids them be of good chear : For unlearned Catholicks , if the truth were known , understand as much or more of the Mass , than illiterate Protestants do of the Common Prayer . If a Man were apt to give ill words , the confidence and palpable falshood of this Assertion would certainly provoke him . It were better surely to believe nothing but our Senses , which he falsly imputes to some Protestants , than to undertake to face down Sense and Experience , in a matter in which the meanest , most illiterate Protestant in the World , will be a Demonstration against him . We are content our People should believe all Mr. M. says , according as they find this true . But he objects farther , What does the Protestant Multitude understand of the Predictions of Isaiah , &c. read in their Churches by appointment of the Common Prayer ? Suppose they understood not one word of them : how doth it follow , that unlearned Catholicks understand more of the Mass , than illiterate Protestants do of the Common-Prayer Book ? This is a new Instance of Mr. M's old Infirmity , in drawing Consequences . We are now talking of Common Prayers , in which the People ought to joyn : and he talks of the Lessons , which are no part of them . There are commonly in every Congregation , persons of better and of meaner capacity ; 't is fit both should be instructed . Those Lessons out of Isaiah are for the better capacities , and are read so , as may make them most easie to them . And what great matter , if the weaker , for whom they are not intended , do not understand them , since they are sufficiently provided for otherwise . Their obscurity might be some reason against reading them at all ; but if they ought to be read , as is ordered both by the Common-Prayer Book and Breviary , I hope they will be better understood in English than Latin : And yet after all , there is not one Lesson ordered to be read by the Common-Prayer Book , but the meanest of the Protestant Multitude understands more of it , then a whole illiterate Popish Congregation understands of the Breviary , or Mass ; and of this he may make an Experiment when he pleases . His second Allegation in behalf of his Church is , that she has set forth Expositions of the Mass in Print . How many Evpositions of the Mass ( says he ) are extant in Print by Commandment of the Church ? So that no Man can be ignorant of it that desires to be informed . To this I answer , That if by an Exposition be meant a Translation of the Mass , there is not one extant in Print by Commandment of their Church . On the contrary , the Congregation of the Index have Damned the very hours of the blessed Virgin , for being in the Vulgar Tongue ; as may be seen at large in Saint Amours Journal , Part. 3. Chap. 5. There is indeed a Translation stolen out of late in English , but it is without any Authority , which may be called a Commandment of their Church . However , if it were set out by her Authority , what could it signifie to the greater part of the People , who are neither able to procure nor read that Translation ? And if they could read it , yet would no more be able by help of it to joyn with the Priest , then by any other Devotional Book . Lastly , What is this to the Reformation , which found not one Exposition in Print by Commandment of the Church , nor any counted necessary ? I will venture to put one Question to Mr. M. and having askt so many , I hope he will not take it ill . Ought the Mass to be understood by the People , or no ? If it ought to be understood , why is not the best method taken to make them understand it ; even to read it in a Tongue understood by them ? If it matters not , whether it be understood by the People or no ; to what purpose doth he talk of an Exposition ? His third Argument in behalf of the practice of his Church , is taken from the Example of the Jewish Church . Had not ( saith he ) the Jewish Church almost all her Scriptures and publick Service for fourteen Generations , that is to say , from the Captivity unto Christ in the old Hebrew ? A Language not then understood by the the common People . I Answer , she had some of them in old Hebrew , but not only in it . They were read in the Synagogues , first in Hebrew , for the use of the Learned ; and then in the Vulgar , for the common People . This he might have learnt from Father a Simon , b and Bishop Walton : Nay c Doctor Isaac Vossius is positive , that the Greek was the vulgar Language of Jerusalem in our Saviours time ; and that the Septuagint Translation , and not the old Hebrew , was read in the Synagogues of the Jews . And all unanimously conclude , that the people either understood the original of what was read , or were made understand it by an Interpreter . 'T is probable , Saint Paul , had respect to this custom among the Jews , when he commands the Prophet that spake with Tongues to keep silence in the Church , if there was no Interpreter , 1 Cor. 14. 28. And therefore Mr. M. has quite mistaken his Argument , when he asks , Did our Saviour or his Apostles ever reprehend the Jews — for not translating the Scripture into the vulgar Language ? There was no ground for such a Reprehension , since the Jews had done it three hundred years before ; & therefore will rise up in Judgment against the absurd practice of the Roman Church , & will condemn her ; who is more unkind to her Subjects than the very Jews , & has provided worse for their Edisication in this point . It is to no purpose to say as Mr. M. doth , that the Latine is more vulgar than the English : Since this is a manifest falshood , and must be owned to be such , by all men who consider that the Latine is not vulgar in any place of the World. I cannot tell whether I can call it a fourth Argument which offers , in these words , If the Service of God must be said in the maternal tongue of every Nation , where shall an English man in France or Spain , that understands not the language , go to serve God on the Lords day ? I answer , To Church , and joyn his presence and private Devotion with the Congregation ; since he cannot joyn in the publick Prayers . In case of necessity , a man is accepted by God according to what he can do ; and what is not in his power , is not required of him . In a Country where there are no Christians , he must go no where ; and in a strange Country , he must go to the publick Devotions , though he do no● understand them : For that is better then not going at all . His last Argument for the vindication of the publick Service of the Church in an unknown Tongue is , That this would destroy all Community of Sacraments and Lit●rgie , between the Members of the Catholick Church ; which being one Body or Society of Men , cannot be like the Builders of Babel , who could not understand one anothers Language . Now if they that understand not one anothers language are Builders of Babel ; then the Priest and People , where the Service is in an unknown Tongue , are plainly such Builders : For they do not understand one another . Two Cities may very well be Built , and conveniently Governed by two People of different Languages ; and these Cities may likewise manage all their common Business , and keep a good Correspondence , by the help of a few Men that understand both Languages . But two Languages in the same City is very inconvenient , and cannot be so remedied , It is so in the Church : Distant Congregations may have a very good Communion with one another by the help of their Priests who understand a common Language : But to have a Language spoken to a Congregation , or in it , that the Members cannot understand , is to bring in a great confusion , and directly opposite to the Apostles command , which he himself here produces , Rom. 15. 16. that we should with one mind and mouth glorifie God : For how can a Congregation glorifie God with one mouth , if they do not understand the words in which they are to joyn ? Thus Mr. M's . Arguments constantly make against himself . If want of a common Language destroys unity of Sacraments and Liturgy , in distant Churches , it destroys that unity much more where there is wanting a common Language between the Priest & People in the same Church . But the truth is , the unity of the Sacraments and Liturgies , have no dependency on the unity of Language ; but are the same in whatever language they are used or administred . And so it was in the Primitive Church , where every People had their own Liturgy in their own Language . Mr. M. foresaw that 1 Cor. 14. would be objected against him : And he tells us , p. 11. That he humbly thinks it not well understood by Prostants . This is a main point ; and one would have expected a substantial Reason for his Opinion , some Determination of a Primitive Council , or a whole shoal of Fathers at least : But instead of that , he pretends to cut the throat of the Objection out of that very Chapter , in which Protestants glory . If any be Ignorant ( saith he ) let him be Ignorant . Wherefore Brethren , covet to Prophesie , and forbid not to speak with Tongues , v. 39. God is not the Author of Confusion but Peace , v. 33. I shall not trouble the Reader with an Answer to these Arguments ; if Mr. M. designed in earnest to prove by them , that we do not well understand the Apostle in this Chapter , I would advise him to take the Opinion of a Physician , whether all be right about his Head. § 8. The third thing wherein Mr. M. endeavours to vindicate his Church is the Worship of Images . And to this purpose he alledges , First , That the Council of Trent hath commanded all Superstition to be taken away in the use of Images ; and then gives it in charge to all Bishops to look to it , p. 12. If they had reckoned the Worship of Images Superstition , this had indeed taken away our Objection , but on the contrary ; the Council decreed that Images of Christ , not of his Human Nature , ( as he improperly expresses it ) and likewise of the Blessed Virgin , and other Saints , are to be had and retained , especially in Churches , and due Honour and Worship is to be paid them . And that we ought to kiss , uncover our Heads , and fall prostrate before them . § 9. But then , Secondly , He bids us enquire whether Roman Catholicks pay any more respect to them , than Protestants do to the Elements of Bread and Wine , which ( say they ) are but a Figure or Image of Christs Body and Blood. To which I answer , That this Enquiry supposes two notorious Falshoods : First , That Protestants pay any other respects to the Elements of Bread and Wine , then that of not diverting them from their Sacramental use . And Secondly , That they say the Elements are but a Figure or Image of Christs Body and Blood. Our Curch having declared in her Rubrick after the Communion , that the kneeling at the Reception of the Sacrament , is only to Christ ; and that no Adoration is intended , or ought to be done unto the Sacramental Bread and Wine : and likewise concerning the Elements , that they are not only Signs or Images , but effectual means of conveying the Body and Blood of Christ to the Faithful . Which I hope no Papist will say of his Images . And now I must refer it to the Reader , whether he will suppose Mr. M. to have been ignorant of our Doctrine in this point , or to have knowingly , and against his Conscience , suggested these falshoods . § 10. His third attempt for the Defence of his Church in this Practice , is from his old Friends the Presbyterians . The Church of England Protestants are every jot as offensive to us ( say the Presbyterians ) kneeling before the Elements of Bread and Wine , as the Papists kneeling before the Image of Christ. To which I answer , That if the Matter of Fact here alledged , were true , ( which I do not believe , ) yet it were no Argument ; because the Presbyterians , or whosoever are thus offended , are manifestly unreasonable in paralleling these two cases . The Disparity is apparent , and the very same that there is between receiving a Pardon , or any other signal Favour from the Kings own Hand on my knees ; and falling down every time I see his Pictuure on a Sign-post . But once for all , let Mr. M. know , ( for he professes to need Information , ) that it is is no Anwer to an Argument , to pretend that others urge it against the Proponents themselves ; except the Answerer shew that both urge it with equal Reason . For so the Apostles might have been answered by a Heathen . You would perswade us , that we are under the Power of Satan , and Aliens to the Life of God : Do not the Gnosticks say the same of you ? Silence them , and we will believe you . So a Roman Catholick may be answered by an Indian , You would have us renounce our Idols and Heroes ; whereas there is a People amongst yourselves , called Protestants , to whom your kneeling before the Images of Christ , and praying to Saints , are every jot as offensive as our praying to our subordinate Celestial Powers and Kneeling before their Images . If this would signifie nothing to Mr M. why should it signifie any thing to us what Presbyterians object against our Kneeling at the Reception of the Sacrament ? or how are we concerned , what they pretended in 41 , against our Reformation , or Hugh Peters in 47 , against theirs ? except he will undertake to justifie their Pretences , which is a Task themselves could never perform . § 11. There is onely one thing more he says in vindication of his Church ; and that concerns the ill Practices we charge on some Roman Catholicks , and the ill Opinions of others . He doth not deny that there are some such , but he looks on it as no Argument at all . If so , he wrote his Book to very little purpose ; for why are we more concerned in the ill Practices or ill Opinions of some who pretend to Reform , than he is in the ill Practices and Opinions of the Pope and Court of Rome ? Yet these pretended faults of the Reformers , make up the greatest part of what he Objects against our Church ; which shews that he has one Rule for us , and another for his own Party . But the truth is , we charge the Council of Trent it self with some ill Practices and Opinions . For thô we take Popery as the most judicious Papists represent it ; ( and they who bring the Decrees of the Council of Trent nearest to Protestanism , I find are at present counted such ) yet still there needs better Vouchers than Mr M. to make us believe all things in it Judicious and Pious . § 12. Having thus examined all that he has said in defence of his Church , let us next consider what he has offered to recommend Her : And of this nature he produces three instances : The Excellency of her Books of Devotion ; the Devotion of her People ; and the Unity of her Members . He tells us , p. 9. that , that which obliged him most of all to the Church of Rome , was the perusal of her Books of Devotion ; such as St. Francis Sales — Neirembergius — Lewis Granatensis — especially the Mass it self . If these obliged him most of all , had he lived at the Reformation , he had wanted some of the strongest obligations to keep him in the Roman Communion ; three of these four he mentions being written after the Reformation , and the other but a few years before . And now they are written , he was not debarred the use of them in the Communion in which he lived . The Spirit of the Reformation , which he says he compared without prejudice , with the Spirit of the Roman Church , allowing the use of all Books that may advance Piety , by whomsoever they are written , which the Spirit of his Church doth not : But what is this to the Reformation , which did not find , much less condemn these Books ? Let him shew one Book of Devotion , or Exposition of the Mass , or Breviary , extant in English before the Reformation , if he can ; and remember what has been done since , to the eternal shame of those , who never troubled themselves with Devotion , till meer necessity of supporting their interest among the People put them on it . As for the Piety of the Prayers in the Mass , let him who understands , both compare any Prayer there with our Litany , and 't is hardly possible Prejudice should so blind him , as not to see which has the advantage . § 13. But , nevertheless , he alledges , that the Devotion of their People exceeds ours . Let the Reader compare that Devotion which Catholics pay to the Sacrifice of the Mass , with that which most Protestants shew to the Common-Prayer , and then see how much better we are by Reforming the Mass into English , p. 11. To which I answer , That if it were granted , that Papists appear to be more devote at Mass , than Protestants at Church ( for that I suppose he means by paying Devotion to the Mass , and shewing it to the Common-Prayer ) yet it would not follow that the Mass were better than the Common-Prayer , or a fitter means of Devotion ; since that difference might arise from other motives , as it manifestly doth . The Roman Catholics place much more Religion in outward shew , than the Protestants , and therefore no wonder if they be more diligent in it . 2. If the appearance of Devotion at publick Service be an Argument of the goodness of the Service , the Turks who out do the generality of Christians in frequency , seeming Devotion , and Reverence at their Prayers , as we are informed by Travellers , must be concluded to have the best Service : and he would do ill on Mr M.'s Principles that would Reform the Alcoran into the Mass. 3. The matter of Fact is not true , as I am informed by those that have seen their Communicants and ours . Protestants have according to Mr M.'s desire , compared the Devotions of the Church of Rome with those of the Church of England , in a Discourse designed for that very purpose , and Printed , London , 1685 : In which it is shewn , That whatever the Romanists pretend , there is not so true Devotion among them , nor such rational provision for it , nor encouragement to it , as in the Church established by Law among us . 4. It is not material what their Devotions appear to be , if their Lives are not better than ours , which I am sure they are not . Open Prophaneness is hardly more provoking to God , than shew of Devotion without proportional Sanctity of Life , as we learn from the Case of the Jews of old , in Isa. 1. Jer. 7. and in many other places of Scripture . § 14. The third thing whereby he endeavours to recommend his Church , is the Unity of her Members : In the Church of Rome he shall find variety of Religious Orders , but no Schism , nor Discord about their Sacraments or Liturgy : In the Garment of the Church , there is Variety , but no Rent : No confusion of Sects , nor Disobedience to Superios . p. 14. If this be true , she is the happiest Church that ever was in the World ; much happier than the Church of the Apostles time : for there were Schisms and Discords about Sacraments and Liturgy in her . Witness the Apostle , 1 Corin. 1. 11. also 11. 18. Nay , there was Disobedience too , Gal. 3. 1. 3 Joh. 9. It is therefore strange we should be able to find none in the Church of Rome . May we not rather conclude that Mr M. has either partially , or negligently sought for these Schisms and Discords ? Since really there has hardly been greater Schisms and Discords in any Church than in her , thô he affirms we shall find none . * Bellarmine loved the Church of Rome as well as Mr M. and he owns twenty six Schisms in her . † Onuphrius Panvinius , who uses not to speak ill of the Roman Church , reckons thirty ; one he calls the worst and longest , which continued fifty Years , others were of twenty , or fifteen , or ten , &c. These Authors onely reckon those Schisms where the People were divided between two Popes : But it were easie to shew , that besides these there were in that Church great and enormous Schisms , which had no Popes to head them . And as for Discords about Sacraments , I suppose , Mr M. reckons Ordination a Sacrament : And concerning it there have been many Discords ; many Popes have damned their Predecessors , and annulled their Ordinations . So Stephen VII . nulled the Ordinations of Formosus his Predecessor . John IX . did as much for Stephen , and Sergius III. for him . * Platina tells us , That after the time of Stephen VI. or , as others reckon , the VII . it became a Custom for the succeeding Popes to infringe , or quite destroy the Acts of their Predecessors . † Spondanus tells us , These are the unhappy times , wherein every intruding Pope annulled the Acts of his Predecessors . And further , that the power of Whores was so great in Rome , that they removed true and lawful Popes , and thrust in violent and wicked men . Who , considering this , would not think God had forgotten his Church ? Behold the Mission of the Roman Bishops , and their Unity . And if notwithstanding these Schisms and Intrusions , which continued for many years , the Church of Rome continued a true Church , and her Ordinations valid ; let the Reader judge , what there is so Horrid or Irregular in our Reformation , that should void our Orders , or make us cease to be a Church . § 15. I suppose Mr. M. counts Confirmation another Sacrament ; and there have been no less discords about it of late in the Roman Church . The Regulars of England on one side , and the Bishops of France , with the Sorborn on the other . And those of each party charge the other with Heresie , not without the disturbance of the publick Peace , and a rent of brotherly Charity . So the Congregation of the Index tells us : which Congregation made a Decree to suppress the Writings of both Parties , May 19. 1633. And here we do not find that Obedience to Superiors in this matter of which Mr. M. boasts : for immediately there came out at Paris a Disquisition against the Decree , the Jesuits Reply , and the Bishops of France renew their Condemnation and Censure , Nov. 29. 1643. and I do not find that they are yet agreed . Mr. M affirms we shall find no Rent , no Confusion of Sects , no Disobedience to Superiors in the Church of Rome . But whosoever will read the Decrees and passages about this matter , in St. Amours's Collection at the end of his Journal , p 26. or in Petrus Aurelius's Vindiciae Censurae , will find a great rent of brotherly Charity , much Confusion , and great Disobedience in the disagreeing Parties ; and these about no less things , than the Sacrament of Confirmation , the Hierarchy of the Church , and Supremacy of St. Peter . § 16. Confession is no less a Sacrament with Mr. M. and the Disputes in his Church have of late been as high about it , as about the former ; one Party charging the other . with no less than Heresie : as may be seen at large in the Bishops of France's Letter to Innocent the X. at the end of Mr. Arnauld's Book of Frequent Communion . If their publick Acts are to be believed , there are Rents , Scissurae fraternae Charitatis in their Church . But if we believe Mr. M. there is no Rent , Scissura non est . I shall say nothing of the Dispute concerning the Regale in France at this day ; I need not put him in mind of what Obedincee has been paid to the Pope , or to his Excommunications of the Arch-bishop of Tholouse , and Regalists . He may see the whole in a Book intitled , Regale Sacerdotum , 1684. I do not see but the King and Church of France make themselves Judge , Witness , and Accuser in this Affair with the Pope , as much as Henry VIII ▪ and the English Church did . § 17. This is all that Mr. M. seems to say , either to vindicate or recommend his Church . Let us see next what he objects against ours . And in all this last part I can find only three things of this nature : One is P. 10. That the Church of England is beholding to the Mass for the best Flowers in her Communion Service . The second is , that the Protestant Church has no other Foundation , than every man's Reason . And the third is , That we do not pay a due Submission to the Church . As to the first of these , I suspect the chief reason , why some of his Party object the Communion Service , being taken out of the Mass ; is not that they think it any fault if it were ; but because they bel eve it may gratifie and incense their Friends , the Nonconformists , against the publick Service of the Church . But I answer , That the Model of our Service , and Materials thereof , are not taken out of the Mass , but out of the ancient Liturgies of the Church , to which it is much more conformable than to the Mass. § 18. The second Objection he brings against our Church is , That she hath no sufficient Foundation : P. 11 , I desire to be informed whether the Protestant Church had any other Foundation ( setting aside an Act of Parliament ) than every Man 's own Reason ; or which is the same thing , the Scriptures Interpreted by every Man's Reason ? There are but two Bases whereupon to settle our selves , the Scriptures and Fathers expounded by my own Reason ; or the Scriptures and Fathers expounded by the voice of the present visible Church . This later is Popish , and cannot support a Reformed Fabrick . In answer to this , I will shew , first , in what Sence every Man's Reason , may be said to be the foundation of his Church . Secondly , That our Church has trusted her Reason in the expounding Scriptures and Fathers , no farther than she ought to have done . And Thirdly , That she has not Expounded them so as to contradict the sence of the present visible Church . First therefore , When Mr. M. alledges that our Church has no other Foundation than every Man's Reason , he may mean that she has no other Foundation for her Religion , than what natural Reason , without the assistance of Revelation , and other helps God has afforded her , doth suggest . And this is a manifest Calumny , because she has , besides what natural Reason of it self suggests , the Scriptures , the Fathers , the universal Tradition of all Ages past , and present , for every Article of her Faith. Let him shew one Article that wants any one of these , and we will strike it out of our Creeds ; or any other Article that has this testimony for its necessity , and it shall be inserted . There may be another sence of these words , The Protestant Church has no other Foundation than every man's Reason : and 't is this , The Protestants make use of no other faculties , to find out the sence of Scriptures and Fathers , of the former and present Church , but their Reason and Senses : and consequently rely on them with God's assistance , to find out the true Religion and Church . This Sence we allow , and except Mr. M. and his Party , will shew us some other faculties , given us by God , whereby we may choose our Religion ; they ought not to blame us for using these only . When they find out another faculty of the Soul , besides these two , whereby we may distinguish Truth from Falshood , we promise them to use it also . And though Mr. M. confesses his own Reason , to be as weak as any body can think it and pretends not to assert it , but the Authority of the Church : yet , till he tells us by what faculties he judges himself obliged to submit to the Authority of the Church , and by what faculties he comes to know that the Roman Church is she , to whose Authority he ought to submit ; we must tell him , that the Authority of his Church , as to him , is founded meerly and solely on his own Reason , how weak soever he own it . And so must the Authority of every Church , to every man in the World. And therefore it is foolish to object , That the Protestant Church has no other Foundation than every Man's Reason and Sences ; for no Church , no not Christianity , has or can have any other . § 19. But Secondly , Perhaps Mr. M. means only that we do not allow the voice of the present visible Church a due regard in our Determination , concerning Faith and Religion . In Answer to which , in the second place , I say , our Church trusted her reason no further in expounding Scripture than she ought to have done . And here it is to be remembred , that she is a compleat Church , associated together in one intire Ecclesiastical Body , with full power to Interpret and Teach her Subjects , all things relating to Faith and Discipline : As these Kingdoms are a compleat Common-wealth , associated into one civil Body , with full power to Interpret and Enact all things relating to the Law of Nature , and the Civil Government of the Kingdoms . As therefore these Kingdoms do not trust their Reason too far , when they determine concerning the Laws of Nature without Appeal ; so neither did our Church trust her Reason too far , when she determined without Appeal , concerning matters relating to Faith. And there is no more inconvenience can befal her Subjects , by allowing her this power in this case , than can befal them , by allowing their Civil Majestrates the like power in the other . § 20. And third , to shew that she did not intend to contradict the general voice of the visible Church , with which Mr. M. seems to charge her ; she was content to refer all difference between her and her Neighbour Churches , to the Arbitration of a general Council , even of the West . And to this she Appealed , when the Pope pretended to Excommunicate her . And not only she , but other Protestant Churches did the same . But the Roman Church being Conscious , that the general Voice and Sense of the visible Church , was against her Usurpation , durst not stand this Tryal ; but without any Authority from God , or the visible Church ( if we understand by that the general Body of Christians ) took on her self to be Judge , Witness , and Accuser . Which was more than Luther did ; for he referred himself , and Appealed to a general Council . § 21. The third Objection Mr. M. alledges against the Reformers , is , their not yielding a due Submission to the Church . For after all his clamour against Reason , he allows us to make use of it with Submission ; he has expressed his meaning in this , so as it is not easie to guess , whether he means by submitting our reason , an intire resignation of it , to beleive whatsoever the Church of Rome by a Priest , or a Council tells us , and then the only use of reason will be to find out Arguments to defend what she has taught us ; or whether by Submission he means only a due regard to her Determinations , so that a Man of her Communion shall not allow himself publickly to oppose and contradict her Doctrine . This last he seems to understand by Submission ; because he opposes it to Contradiction and Petulancy . And then why is not this Submission due as much to the Church of England and Ireland as Rome ? Did not Christ say to the Bishops of England and Ireland , He that hears you hears me ; as well at to the Bishop of Rome ? § 22. But to clear this matter a little , I will shew that we pay all due Submission to the Church . And , Secondly , Examine what Submission Mr M. has paid her . When we talk of Submission to the Church , by the Church may be meant either the Universal Church , or the Particular Church wherein we were Born , Baptized , and Educated : and to both these we profess and pay due Submission . Witness of the Doctrine of Christ , and we receive her Testimony . The onely Question with us is , What Doctrine Christ and his Apostles Taught ? And this we believe contained in the Scriptures . Concerning the Sence of any Word in them , we receive likewise the Testimony of the Catholick Church . Every Doctor approved by her , is a Witness , and every Council received by her , is as the Deposition of Witnesses . By this means we know her Sence in former Ages , as well as in this Age , and are able to compare them together . Where these agree , we have no reason to doubt her Veracity ; but where one Age of her says one thing , and another Age says another thing ; we count our selves under no obligation to believe either of their Testimonies to be a necessary part of the Doctrine of Christ. 'T is therefore the Church of all Ages , and places , that we reckon the Ground and Pillar of Truth . Whereas Mr M. con●ines us to the Visible Church , and pretends we are to take the Sence of all former Ages , from the present . But pray why may not I as well understand the Sence of the Church of the fourth Age from the Council of Nice , as I can understand the Sence of the last Age from the Council of Trent ? It was therefore by this Rule , and with Submission to his Church , that our Reformers proceeded in their Reformation : and except Mr M. can shew ( which he has not so much as endeavoured to do ) that they deviated from this Rule , he has done nothing to prove that they had not a due Deference and Submission to the Catholick Church . And as she thus submitted to the Sence of the Universal Church , so she requires all her Subjects to submit to her , to receive the Faith , to which she , with the Catholick Church , bears Testimony , to own her Laws of Discipline , submit to her Censures , and conform to her Constitutions . But she pretends to no Dominion over mens Faith , or to oblige them to believe any thing , because she has decreed it : Her Authority is to propose as a Witness , not to define as a Judge . If any one dissent from her , he must not make a Schism , or turn Preacher in contradiction to her Authority : If any one be otherwise minded , he must follow the Apostle's Rule , Phil. 3. 15. he must conform as far as he can , and yield a Passive Obedience to her Censures , where he cannot give an Active to her Commands . While he walks by this Rule , he can neither be a Schismatick nor Heretick ; and may expect , if he use due means , that God will either reveal to him what he wants , or pardon his Errour if he mistake . § 23. This Submission is coherent even with Calvin's Principles : And though I am not concerned for any private Divine , yet since Mr M. has troubled us with so few Quotations , I will pay him so much Respect as to take notice of this ; and the Reader may from it learn how faithfully he Transcribes and Englisheth his Quotations . The Quotation as in Calvin ▪ As Transcribed by Mr M. Non alius est in vitam ingressus nisi nos ipsa concipiat in utero , nisi pariat , nisi nos a●at suis uberibus — Adde quod extra ejus gremium nulla speranda est peccatorum remissio , nec ulla salus — Lib. 4. Cap. 1. Sect. 4. Extra Ecclesiae gremium nulla speranda Salus , nec Remissio peccatorum , quia non est alius in vitam ingressus . Thus in English literally . Thus render'd into English by Him. There is no other Passage into Life , except the Visible Church conceive us in her Womb , bring us forth , and nourish us with her Breasts — Add to this , That out of her Bosom there is no Remission of Sins to be expected , nor any Salvation . He that will enter into Life , let him mortifie the Pride of his own Reason , and humbly cast himself at the Feet of the Catholick Church . Both Calvin and we own that Pride , and all other Passions , ought to be Mortified : And except Mr M. can shew that we have used our Reason proudly , that is , not yielded , out of some design , Passion or Prejudice , when our Reason was convinced , we have just reason to reckon all his Accusations effects of his own Passion , and Petulancy against his Mother Church . He confesses that many of us are Cathol●ks by Inclination ; ( I hope we are really so ) but the Tyranny of Prejudice , or Interest keeps us Protestants . But for Prejudice , l●t the World judge , whether our People are more liable to Prejudice ▪ who are allowed to Read , and Examine , and Judge for themselves ; or the Members of his Church , that are taught to submit without Examination . As for Intérest , I think it is the Interest of every man to continue Protestant , if he value his Soul : but for Worldly Interest , the Scales are hardly equal . I find not one of their Converts who has lost by it yet . But whatever our Interest is , our Loyalty is unquestionable ; if he know divers Loyal Persons of the Church of England , I know none else . § 24. Let us now take a view of his Submission to the Church . 1. For the Catholick Church ▪ he has taken the liberty to cut off from her , what Members he thought fit ; and has reduced her to a fourth part of Christians : He has obtruded Articles of Faith on her ▪ to which she never gave Testimony ▪ and has subjected her to a Head at Rome , to whom God never subjected her ; that is ▪ He has created a Catholick Church out of his own head , and rejected that of Christ's Planting . 2. As for the Particular Church , which made him a Member of Christ by Baptism , this his spiritual Mother , he has pronounced a Harlot , and her Children By-blows ▪ He has condemned her Sacraments , degraded her Bishops , to whom he sware Obedience , renounced her Orders , and given her the Title of an unsanctified Nation . In short , as far as lay in his Power , he has exposed the Nackedness of his Mother . Behold the Petulancy and Contradiction of an undutiful Son. But thanks be to God , notwithstanding his feeble Attempts , Her Bow abides in strength , and the Arms of her Hands are made strong , by the Hands of the Mighty God of Jacob , Gen. 49. 24. CHAP. VI. ALthough Mr. M. hath nothing new in his Latine Addition , but only repeats what he said ; first in his Preface , and then in his Book ; yet , I did not think it fit , to let what he has said in this Language , be without some Animadversions in the same . Ad dubia quae proponuntur super Reformatione Anglicana , sic respondetur . Ad 1. An Ecclesia Anglicana sit tota Ecclesia ? Resp. Quàm absurdum sit ut una particularis Ecclesia ●e esse totam Catholicam Christi Ecclesiam , extra quam non est salus , impudenter jactitet , videant Romanenses . Ecclesia Anglicana membrum duntaxat Ecclesiae Catholicae sese existimat : Omnium Ecclesiarum Sacramenta à Christo instituta amplectitur , dummodo in unitate fidei , in materiâ debitâ , & sub formâ praescrip●â celebrentur . A● Nos , vel ipsius Ecclesiae Romanae Baptismum rejicimus ? aut an illa nostrum non recipit ? Ad 2. Num Ecclesia Anglicana recipit Sacramenta Lutheranorum , &c. Resp. Sacramenta Lutheranorum , &c. Vera esse Sacramenta ; & forte solus est Mr. M. qui aliter sentit . Sacramenta non sunt eorum Sacramenta , à quibus celebrantur ; sed Christi & Ecclesiae : sicut nos docuit sanctus Augustinus contra Donatistas Ep. 48. Non in vobis mutamus in quibus estis nobiscum — Nobiscum autem estis in Baptismo , in Symbolo , in coeteris Dominicis Sacramentis , & paulo ante , ex Catholicâ enim Ecclesiâ sunt omnia Dominica Sacramenta quae sic habetis & datis , quemadmodum habebantur & dabantur , etiam priùs quam inde exiretis ; non tamen ideò non habetis quia ibi non estis , unde sunt quae habetis , haec ille de Sacramentis Haereticorum . Donatista itaque est , qui Sacramentum rejicit , quia à Schismaticis celebrari putat ; multo magis qui eorum Sacramenta rejicit , qui fidem Catholicam profitenter , & se studiosos unitatis Ecclesiasticae , & fraternae Charitatis exhibent . Ad 3. Unde missus est Cranmerus ad praedicandum Evangelium suum Reformatum ? Resp. A Christo missus est Cranmerus per manus Episcoporum Angliae secundùm Ecclesiae Anglicanae institutionem ad praedicandum , non suum , sed Christi Evangelium : probandum igitur est , Evangelium Reformatum aliud esse à Christi Evangelio , priusquam mandatum Missionis excessisse dicatur Cranmerus . Contra Ecclesiam Romanam non rebellavit , quoniam illi jure subjectus non erat , neque ab ea Missionem aut jurisdictionem propriè recepit . Ecclesia quae illum misit in communione erat cum Ecclesiâ Romanâ , non illi tamen subjecta , jure aliquo divino . Ad 4. An liceat Ministro ab Ecclesiâ Anglicanâ fugitivo praedicare contra eam , & c ? Resp. Videat ipse , per quam Missionem publicè per hanc chartam praedicat contra Ecclesiam cui obedientiam juravit ? Est enim & hoc , praedicationis genus efficacissimum . Ad 5. Utrum defectus Missionis sit error in Fundamentis ? Resp. Si per Missionem intelligitur externa illa , quae secundum Canones ●it ; defectus in eà non est semper error in Fundamentis : multi enim Episcopi Romani ejusmodi Missione caruerunt . Corcedo furti & Latrocinii reum esse , qui sine regulari externâ Missione in ovile ingreditur ; non tamen inde sequitur , omnia quae facit aut mala aut nulla esse cum semel in ovile ingressus sit . Simoniacus aut intrusus ●ur est & latro ; an igitur Sacramenta ab ipso celebrata nulla sunt aut invalida ? Omnino tamen deest ei Missio inte●na , & defectus est in externâ . Ad 6. Utrum Cranmerus intravit per ostium Parliamenti ? Resp. Intravit invitus ( ut ●ere omnes boni Episcopi ) per ostium quod illi leges , tam Ecclesiasticae quam civiles , secundum ●acras Scripturas , monstrayerunt ▪ Cantent s● modo possunt , hanc canti●enam se●●ar●● ; & si placet sit illis pro Magistro Symphoniae Mr. M. nunquam tamen Harmoniae regulis respondebi● eorum cantus . Objicit nobis varium & Multiplicem Scripturae sensum , sed imm●●itò , ipse enim si Christianus est , objectionem solvere tenetur , aut ●altem interpretem assignare , qui verum Scripturarum sensum â ●a●so hucusque discreve●it , illumque verbis expresserit , quorum sensus non aequè multiplex est , ac sensus Scripturarum . Ac objicit ●ine tali judice altercari in aeternum necesse est : concedo equidem quod illi quibus ambitio & lucrum dominantur , in aeternum altercabuntu● sub quovis Judice : nec aliter voluit Deus ? aequum enim est , quod ●mpii & superbi in Haereses & Factiones labi permittantur ; at boni & modesti ●ub pastoribus sibi à Christo assignatis vivent , sine altercationibus quae unitatem sc●ndunt . Dicit 7. Ad haec postulata saepius se quaesivisse responsum , sec nullum hactenus invenisse . A quibus haec quaesivit ? An à nostris ? Vix credo , nullum enim invenio , qui haec illum quaerentem audivit , aut somniavit ; si igitur quaesiverit , ab aliis certè , non a nostris ( à quibus oportuit ) quaesivit ; sortè a fratribus Monasticis quorum consortio per annum praeteritum se totum dedit ; non autem miremur aut illis defuisse responsum , aut si quod habuissent celasse . Addit tandem responsum ( quod dicit a multis obtendi solere ) scilicet Cranmerum cum sodalibus ord●nes accepisse à Christo per manus Episcoporum pontificiorum ; si per pontificios intelligit Episcopos in communione cum pontifice Romano , verum est at si per pontificios , intelligit Episcopos qui se Subjectos Papae jure divino agnoverunt , aeque falsum est quàm quod maximè ; ut igitur Christiani Episcopi , non ut pontificii , ordines conferendi potestatem habebant ; quâ usi sunt in assignandis sibi Successoribus ; quâ etiam Cranmorum Christianum , non pontificium Episcopum conse●r●●unt ; quâ tandem errores & corruptelas quae in Divina irrepser●nt , secundum Scripturas sacràs & sensum veterum reformaverunt ▪ & hâc cu●â se veros pastores probârunt : Audiendi itaque erunt : & Mr. M. qui illos audire recusat , inter Rebelles filios numerandus est . Cum igitur primi Reformatores subjecti non essent pontifici , sed Co Episcopi , non magis adversus Doctrinam Ecclesiae Romanae insurgere existimandi erant , quam Regnum Angliae insurgeret contra leges Galliae , si se & subditos & statum suum secundum leges naturae reformaverit : nullus itaque hic nodus nisi quem fallax Mr. M. imaginatio ligavit . Solus culpandus pontifex , qui revera judicem testem & accusatorem egit , & à sociis suis Episcopis quòd jure suo utebantur , sese & Ecclesiam suam abscidit , pacemque cum illis noluit . Ad 8. An cuilibet Ecclesiae nationali jus sese reformandi competit ? Resp. Nihil contra objicit dubitator , nisi si ita se res habeat , tum pari jure reformatam fuisse gentem Scoticam ad Calvinismum , &c. quod nullo modo sequitur ; non solum enim potestas quae reformat , legitima esse sed etiam legitimè procedere debet . At si quae in illis gentibus circa reformationem illegitimè facta fuissent , non erant corrigenda concitando factiones & schismata contra publicam earum Ecclesiarum pacem , nec privati in partes contra pastores solicitandi ( est enim illud remedium morbo plerumque perniciosius ) ●●d ad m●lior●m ●rugem reducendae erant errantes Ecclesiae communi Christianitatis concilio & hortatu ; praesertim dum errores suos aliis non imposu●ru●t . Eo usque enim unitatem deseruisse non sunt aestimandae . Quod in Sancto Cypriano manifestum est , qui ●●cet cum suo provinc●ali concilio in errorem lapsus est , & in eo usque ad terminum vitae perseveravit , à schismate tamen à Sancto Augustino in libris de Baptismo excusatur , quod nullum à jure , Communionis si diversum senserit , amovebat ; neque Tyrannico terrore ad obsequendi necessitatem collegas suos adegit , quando habeat omnis Episcopus pro licentiâ libertatis , & potestatis suae , arbitrium proprium , tamque judicari ab alio non possit , quam nec ipse potest judicare . Ut loquitur ipse Sanctus Cyprianus in Concilio Cartha giniensi ▪ Existimat verô ille , falsum esse quod facta erat mutatio Religionis ex voto gentis , & Cleri Anglicani , sed ex vertigine paucorum , & ad annales illorum temporum nos relegat . Ad eos itaque eamus , indeque manifestum erit , nullam mutationem majori consensu aut factam fuisse aut receptam , quàm Reformationem in Anglia . Si non favissent nobis annales illorum temporum , unde erat quòd tam sollicitè conquisiti , & aboliti sunt sub Maria , idque per mandatum publicum . Ut videre est ex Rot. Pat. Ad 9. An licuit Ecclesioe Anglicanae , cum esset membrum Ecclesiae Catholicoe , semet abseindere à reliquo corpore ? Resp. Nunquam semet abscidit ; manet illi unita unitate fidei , & charitate . Regnum Angliae membrum est societatis humanae aeque ac Ecclesia Anglicana est membrum Catholicae : nec magis Ecclesia estimanda est semet abscindere à reliquo corpore , cum se pro jure suo reformat ; quam regnum semet à societate humana abscindere , si ad suam reformationem Leges novas condat . Conata equidem est Ecclesia Romana nostram à communione Catholica abscindere , illi communionem suam denegando ; ad respondere possumus quod Ecclesia Orientalis per Firmilianum , & Africana per Sanctum Cyprianum Stephano Episcopo Romano ipsas excommunicare nitenti , responderunt . Ep. 75. Peccatum quàm magnum tibi exaggerasti , quando te à tot gregibus scidisti ? excidisti enim teipsum , noli te fallere , dum enim putas omnes à te abstineri posse , solum te ab omnibus abstinuisti . Ad 10. An depravatus fuit per totum orbem verus Dei cultus ante ortum Cranmerum ? Resp. Possunt ea in cultum divinum irrepere per universum orbem quae reformatione indigeant ; nec tamen inde sequitur cultum Dei verum tolli , aut deprava●● : manet aurm verum , licèt à scoriis non penitus purgatum sit . Ad 11. Utrum hodie extra regnum Angliae & Hiberniae nullus extat purus & Apostolicus Dei cultus ? Resp. Quod extat alibi talis cultis quoad essentialia : at forte neque in Anglia , neque alibi tam purus asserendus est Dei cultus , ut nihil in eo quoad accidentalia imperfectum inveniatur ; in ipsis Apostolicis Ecclesiis , viventibus adhuc Apostolis , multa indigebant reformatione , ut colligere possumus ab ipsâ scripturâ . Ad 12. An liceat populo Anglicano comminisci sibi Ecclesiam à toto orbe divisam ? Resp. Non licere , neque talem commentus est ; è contra , omni Ecclesiae verae , Catholicâ side & charitate , unita manet Ecclesia Anglicana . Qui nolunt cum illâ pacem , divisam sibi Ecclesiam commenti sunt . Nullius Ecclesiae Sacramenta aut Ritus damnat , integrum Sacramentum Eucharistiae suis restituit , super●luos & superstitiosos Ritus in rebus divinis abrogavit , & aliis Ecclesiis ut abrogent , suadet ; cum autem in eas potestatem non habeat , non est cur sibi damnandi illos officium arroget , sed ( ut in simili casu Cyprianus in Concilio Carthaginesi , ) Expectemus universi Judicium Domini nostri Jesu Christi , qui unus & solus habet potestatem , & proeponendi Episcopos in Ecclesioe suoe gubernatione , & de actu eorum judicandi . Non existimandus est quid sit damnatio intelligere , qui tam facile totas Ecclesias damnet , & Statanae tradât . Ad 13. Utrum Cranmerus fuit primus Archiepiscopus Ecclesioe Anglicanae ? Resp. Stultissimè hoc quaeri . Videat Catalogum Episcoporum , & dicat an primus sit . At qui illum antecesserunt erant Pontificii , ergo defuit illi successio . Itane ? si fuissent nigri aut albi , ipse autem Rufus , an defuisset illi successio ? non magis ad ordines pertinet , an pontificius , aut graecus sit , bonus , aut malus , qui eos confert , quam si sit niger aut albus . Ordines ( pariter ac sacramenta ) non sunt pontificiorum aut reformatorum , sed Christi & Ecclesiae , nec alicujus Sectae sed Ecclesiae se sacerdotem prosessus est Cranmerus : ad eum sinem consecratus est . Sola Quaestio est , an bene se gesserit in domo Dei , ubi oeconomus constitutus erat : ut id vero innotescat , examinanda sunt quae fecit , & cum factis missio comparanda ; si nihil non Christianum in Ecclesia statuit , satis erat illi abundè Christiana missio ad mandata Christi implenda ; asserit sciscitator noster importunus , Cantuarienses Episcopos per novem anteriora secula pontificios fuisse , sine fronte & veritate : cum nemo ante ▪ Anselmum de Pontificis potestate qualis nunc vindicatur , somniaverit ; cum leges Angliae ante Thomam Becket , ut in Matthaeo Parisiensi videre est ad annum 1164. potestati universalis pastoris directè contrariae fuissent ; cum ipse Warhamus immediatus Cranmeri praedecessor , cum assentiente tota convocatione , supremam Regis potestatem in Ecclesiasticis agnovisset : quam si quis Pontificius agnosceret , erat & Warhamus pontificius . At si quis praedecessorum ejus aliter sentiebat , num id impediret successionem ? Respondeat Sanctus Cyprianus , qui errantes Antecessores in re maximi momenti , scilicet de aquâ vini loco in Eucharistiâ substitutâ , ita excusat . Ep. 63. Si quis de Antecessoribus nostris vel ignoranter vel simpliciter non hoc observavit : potest simplcitati ejus de indulgentiâ Domini venia concedi , nobis verò non poterit ignoscì , qui nunc à Domino admoniti & instructi sumus . Ad 14. Utrum sit verd Ecclesia quoe non habet legitimos Pastores ? Resp. Quod potest esse vera : testis Ecclesia Romana , quoe tot habuit Pontifices Haereticos , Schismaticos , Simoniacos , Intrusos , & Dubios , qui omnes Legitimi pastores non erant , An igitur Romae defecit Ecclesia ? possunt etiam esse vera Sacramenta ubi veri non sunt Pastores , ipsa enim fatente Romanâ Ecclesiâ Faemina & Haeretica verè Baptizat , an illa est verus pastor ? Reformati veros pastores habent : inepte igitur quaeritur an praestat sub unâ specie cum Pseudo Catholicis communicare , quàm sub nullà cum Reformatis ? nullus Reformatus enim est , qui non sub duabus speciebus communicat ; imo praestat illi nullum quâm mutilum Samentum , cui id vitium innotuit . Ad 15. Utrum 39 Articuli Ecclesioe Anglicanae sunt Articuli fidei vel non ? Resp. Omnes non sunt ; plerique negativi Articuli ad rejiciendas vel falsas vel superstitiosas opiniones excogitabantur , quas alii pro Catholica side obtrudere conati sunt ; tales autem non sunt dicendi Articuli fidei : quod vel hinc liquet , si quis pro fidei Articulo venditaret , cras●a●●ore extremum judicium ; qui id ad fidem pertinere negaverit , non dicendus esset novum Articulum fidei excogitasse ; sic enim infiniti esse possent , & quilibet cudendi Articulum potestatem haberet . Alii inter 39 ad politiam & regimen Ecclesiae pertinent , qui plerumque inter fidei Articulos non sunt numerandi alii sunt veritates magni momenti , quae verò tuto ignorari à privatis Christianis possunt , imo si pertinacia absit , non credi . Alii sunt revera omnibus cognoscendi & credendi , qui soli sub nomine Articulorum fidei propriè veniunt . Quod verò insert ille ( scilicet ) si non sunt Articuli fidei , ergo nemo tenetur fidem illis habere sub periculo salutis , non sequitur : potest enim salus periclitari imò amitti , pertinaciter negando alias veritates , quàm quae propriè ad fidem spectant . Cum igitur Articuli 39 ad diversitatem opinio●um evitandam ab Ecclesiâ proponuntur ; nullus qui pacem amat , illis se opponere debet . Ad 16. Utrum Religio Reformata sit divisibilis in semper divisibiles . Resp. Quòd videtur istam quaestionem ut plerásque suas à jocularibus recentium in Collegio oratiunculis mutuatus fuisse : & quod verisimilius hoc facit , solis fere illis insignem ibi sese M. M. reddidit . Ad 17. An in re Eucharistâ Argumentum à sensibus ductum sit fallibile ? Resp. Argumentum istud fallere non potest : ratio quam proponit dubitandi nulla est , revera enim lignum pulchrum erat oculus , neque oculos primam nostram parentem decepit ; sed fesellit sese homo , dum serpenti potiùs quàm Deo credidit de effectu manducationis , ( scilicet ) quod non moreretur etiamsi comederet , de quo oculus nihil illi retulit . Credulitas itaque non sensus primos nostros parentes decepit , caveat itaque à credulitate , qui in quicunque re ▪ decipi non vult . Ad 18. An Ecclesia Anglicana mutabilis sit ad nutum Parliamenti ? Resp. Quod non est ita mutabilis , neque unquam ita mutata fuit : potest Rex cum Parliamento , temporalibus praemiis aut poenis quae sancienda sunt in Religione sancire : quis nisi mente captus hanc potestatem illis negabit ? aut quis nisi manifestò falsus plus circa Religionem reformatam Parliamentum tan●âsse dicet ? Sunt igitur duo in stabilen●â aut reformandâ Religione distinguenda : primum est , judicare de veritate Religionis , & illam quae vera esse judicata est Christi authoritate sub salutis amittendae periculo omnibus commendare ; alterum est , sic commendatam ab Ecclesiâ Religionem temporalibus praemiis aut poenis munire . Primum pertinet ad Ecclesiam , secundum ad civilem Potestatem . In stabiliendâ Reformatione , Ecclesia Anglicana in Convocatione , civilis Potestas in Parliamento propriam sibi Provinciam sigillatim curaverunt . Ad 19. Utrum spiritus Calvini negantis , ac Lutheri affirmantis corporalem proesentiam , sit uterque â Deo ? Resp. Quod neque Calvinus ab inspiratione spiritus negavit , neque Lutherus affirmavit aliquid de corporali praesentiâ . Ridiculè itaque quaeritur an uterque sit à Deo. Author Quaestionis , cum inter Fanaticos educatus esset , audivit omnia aut spiritui bono aut malo attribui , & videtur adhuc in eâ sententiâ haerere ; & inde somniat , non posse aliquem vel affirmare vel negare aliquid nisi ex spiritus alicujus impulsu . Quod tamen somnium vel hoc exemplo excutiat , Paulus III. Papa affirmavit se posse Henricum VIII . imò quemlibet Regem deponere , & per Bullam idem tentavit . At M. M. ( ut spero ) negat potestatem deponendi Regem Angliae inesse Papae . Quaero igitur an spiritus utriusque idem sit , aut an uterque possit esse à Deo ? Ad 20. Nonne impudentissimus fuit Calvinus usurpato sibi munere Reformandi orbem cum juvenis esset 26 annorum ? Resp. Non fuit impudentissimus , impudentior enim Johannes decimus , qui Hugonem puerum quinquennem in Archiepiscopum Rhemensem & Primatem Galliae confirmavit , ut videre est apud Flodardum Histor. Rhem. Lib. 4. Cap. 17 & 18. Impudentior Johannes Papa undecimus Sergii tertii nothus , qui studio & authoritate matris Marozioe infamis scorti & adhuc amoribus aptae , in Vicarium Christi universalem juvenis successit . Teste Luitprando . Lib. 3. Cap. 12. Si haec nihil ▪ ad se existimat dubitator , sciat neque ad nos Calvinum : de quo tamen nihil inimicis credendum ; non enim sibi reformandi munus usurpavit , sed reformantibus semet adjunxit . Ad 21. An ex utero Reformationis effluxerint coedes — & be●lla civilia queemerserunt anno 1641 ? Resp. Quod non , Caedes enim rapinae & bella plus quam civilia quibusin vitas innocentium ultra omne exemplum tunc temporis saevitum est in Hibernia , ex Cleri Romani Sanguinolentâ instigatione originem duxerunt . Quae vero in Angliâ & Scotiâ nata sunt mala , non magis ex utero reformationis effluxerunt , quam gladius schismata & contentiones è doctrina Christi . Ad 22. Utrum Africa sit feracior monstrorum , quam Britania fanaticorum ? Resp. Brittannia non magis ferax est Fanaticorum quàm Italia & Hispania : Fanaticus est qui se divino spiritu agi aut illuminari falsò credit ; plures sunt ibi & in majori pretio qui hoc sibi vendicant , quam in Anglia . Fanaticus est qui ex scripturae sensu malè intellecto sese legitimis pastoribus publicè opponit . Tollatur Inquisitio , & inveniet quamlibet regionem non minus feracem esse ejusmodi fanaticorum quam Britanniam , sola igitur Inquisitio est quâ mellus se habent in hac parte Italia & Hispania quàm Britannia : at nos malumus fanaticos quàm inquisitionem : idque ex Christi praescripto qui ut zizania cum tritico simul crescere s●nerent , servos jussi● . Plures & magis perniciosae Haereses in primaevâ Ecclesiâ ortae sunt , pluresque fanatici , quàm inter Reformatos . An sanius contra judicium discretiones & scripturas jam arguitur ex eo quod eorum abusu fanatici ; fiunt quàm contra Religionem Christianam , quod ejus praetextu tot abominandae Haereses , quas recensent Sanctus Epiphanius & Sanctus Irenaeus , orbem inquinaverunt ? Ad 23 & 25. Quibus de legitimatione Elizabethae & Marioe filiarum Henrici octavi quoeritur . Resp. Elizabetham legitimos habuisse natales , utpote quae nata erat ex matrimonio legitimè cum Matre ejus contracto post sententiam divortii Patris & Catherinae ▪ vel portius postquam conjugium eorum nullum esse pronuntiatum est . Nec minus tamen Maria patri tanquam legitima succedere debuit , cum nata esset antequam vitium matrimonii , propter quod nullum judicatum est , aut patri aut matri innotuit ; Filius enim natus ex matrimonio bona fide vel alterius parentis inito est vere legitimus secundum legem Civilem . Ex cras●â igitur juris ignorantiâ nata est ist opinio , non posse & Elizabetham & Mariam legitimas esse regni Haeredes . Sed quaerit & urget quâ Authoritate uxorem suam Catherinam repudiavit Henricus ? Resp. Authoritate legis Divinae , judicio Ecclesiae Anglicanae , cujus erat judicare de Matrimoniis infra Angliam initis , concilio sententia & approbatione fere omnium Cordatiorum & Doctiorum istius aetatis prius habitis . At quâ Authoritate Mr M. damnat Reges & Reginas Angliae , aut de eorum jure ad Regnum determinat , ipse respondeat . Ad 24. Utrum laudanda sit sapientia Henrici Octavi , qui expulso uno Papa Romano infinitos Papas ex subditis suscitavit ? Resp. Henricus Octavus expulit quidem Romani Pontificis usurpatam jurisdictionem secundum veteres regni leges , nullum vero Papam ex subditis suscitavit ; supponit igitur quaestio falsum , & frivola est : nullus enim Papa dicendus , nisi qui jurisdictionem universalem per Ecclesiam Catholicam sibi vendicat : Quisnam è subditis Henrici id sibi unquam vendicavit ? At permisit Henricus illis Scripturam , an hoc est Papam suscitare ? Quot Papas suscitavit Christus , qui hoc omnibus premisit ? At secundum privatum sensum Scripturas interpretari cuilibet Henricus concessit : fallitur & falsus est Mr M. Nullus enim rigidior submissionis in rebus ad Religionem pertinentibus exactor à suis quam Henricus : Nemo qui cum sensum Scripturae quem pro Catholi●● hab●bat ab omnibus amplectendum sub majori poena Cur●vit . Neque si hominibus aures & oculos resti●●isset in re Religios● , Papas suscitas●e aut Ecelesiasticam Authoritatem subvertisse dicendus esset : quod absurde & ignoranter obji●iunt Papicolae . Ad 26. Si nefas sit mutare Religionem Parliamentariâ Authoritate stabilitam , unde licuit Elizabethoe Religionem evertere Catholica Regni legibus stabilitam ? Resp. Nefas est Catholicam Religionem quâcunque Authoritate evertere ; neque Catholicam Religionem sed Romanam Elizabetha mutavit ; quae vi & fraude stabilita , jure totius regni & majoris & senioris partis Ecclesiae consensu eversa est , odiosam enim sefallaciis ineptiis , tyrannide & vivicomburiis innocentium reddiderat . Hinc facile ad abrogandas leges & civiles poenas quibus ista religio ste●erat , Parliamentum semet accinxit : nec difficilius ( sancitis Canonibus Ecclesiasticis ) reformatam Religionem stabili●e Ecclesiae persuasum est . Nec aliter nec melius veritas stabiliti in nostris regnis potest . Ejusmodi constitutionem & stabilimentum Romanae Religionis in Anglia vel ipsius infallibilitatis jacturâ Pontifex redimeret : at sine vi , sine fraude & fallaciis ut hoc fiat desperandum esse novit , & inde est quod in tot facies se vertit . At quaerit quomodo poterant jurare Elizabetham esse caput Ecclesiae , quando non poterant jurare eum esse caput Regni ? Itane Petrus M. quam regnum , quam leges , quam nascendi jus , quam omnes orbis Principes , & ipse tandem Papa pro legitima Regina habuerunt , solus pro spuria impune rejiciet ? Qui talia audet , perdidit cum religione frontem , & cum sensibus & ratione ejuravit & omnem exuit sese modestiam . Fuit itaque Regina caput Regni : ut vero caput Ecclesiae eam esse aliquis juraret , nec lex jussit , nec in his verbis Eli●abetha exegit . Quatuordecim equidem Episcopos fedibus expulit , & merito , ob recufatum ju●amentum primatus , quod ipsi excogitavere , quod toties susceperant , & quod strenuè sub patre & fratre propugnaverant , sed non authoritate suâ solâ non ●●auditos expulit , ut Maria Episcopos quibus suocesserant : neque recusantes igni ●remandos mandavit , ut Maria ; sed è contra leniter illos tractavit , illi●que uti vellent vivere permisit , unde nihil contra Reginam moliti sunt , aut contra reformationem , cui non conscientià sed pudore prohibiti , ut plurimum consentire noluerunt . Quod vel ex eo colligi potest quod cum Episcopis in eorum locos surrogatis pacifice , plerique vixerunt , neque alios praeter reformatos sibi successores constituêre . Abi tu & fac similiter . Ad 27. No●●e Liturgiam suam suff●●atus est Cranmerus ex Missali , Rituali , & Breviario Romana ? Resp. Reformatores primaevae puritatis studiosi non tam novam Liturgiam condere , quam veterem restituere in animo habuerunt . Inde est quod quae vetera erant , in illa adhuc manent , imo multa à vetere Gallicanâ Liturgiâ semel utebantur hae Regiones , restituta in nostrâ Liturgiâ invenimus ; neque ullum officium in qua antiquae Liturgiae consentiunt , omisit Ecclesia nostra . An Liturgiam itaque à novi● additamentis purgare est illam suffurari ? Ad 28. Nonne juramento primatus tene●tur Protestantes obtemperare Regi ut supremo Gubernatori ? Resp. Rebellis est qui negat . At quid sibi volunt , haec verba , tam in omnibus spiritualibus quam temporalibus ? Resp. Explicari haec in Articulo 27. scill●●● Regi soli temporalem gladium commissum esse : Ac proi●de omnes ●●ve 〈◊〉 sint five Civiles , in Offici● co●tineat , & ●●●●tumaces & delinquentes Gladio civili coerceat . Sive igitur Clericus sive Laicus sit qui civili Gladio puniendus est , solus Rex est qui infligendi poenam istam habet potestatem : imò etiamsi Clericus ille aut Laicus propter haeresin aut aliam quamcunque causam quam maxime spiritualem ista poena esset mulctandus ; neque hoc est omnimodam obedientiam tam religiosam quàm civilem Regi praestare : restat enim Ecclesiae sua potestas spiritualis integra , nempe verbi , sacramentorum & spiritualium poenarum distributio . Quicunque igitur excommunicandus est , propter quamcunque causam , ab Ecclesiâ non à Rege est isti censurae subjiciendus . Satis igitur constabit jurisdictio quam Regi tribuimus sine clavium potestate , totáque secundùm Articulum praedictum spectabit ad gladium civilem . Cum dicitur ▪ igitur Regem esse unicum gubernatorem , tam in spiritualibus quam temporalibus , intelligitur illum esse unicum temporalem gubernatorem , cui jus gladii in omnibus rebus tam Ecclesiasticis quàm temporalibus competit , & qui solus Judex est supremus , quando & quoties uti debet eâ potestate . At concesso , omnimodam obedientiam quae homini praestari potest nos illi debere , quomodo sequitur quod infert ▪ M. M. quod oportet nos cum Calviniano esse Calvinianós , Arianos cum Ariano ; Annon cives Romani totam istam obedientiam , quam per hoc juramentum vendicârunt nostri Reges , Papae praestare tenentur ? An igitur oportet eos , cum Haeretico Papa aut Schismatico , Haereticos aut Schismaticos esse ; Quia Papa est unicus illis supremus gubernator , tam in omnibus Spiritualibus quàm temporalibus ? Nos vero quae Regis sunt Regi tribuimus , reservatis Deo quae sunt Dei. In omnibus Regi vel passivam vel activam obedientiam praestare tenemur ; & si quando lis inter Regem & subditos orta fuerit an licitum sit quod imperatur ; necesse est quemlibet pro se Judicem esse : nec ulla hic fomes bellorum civilium ; id enim vitabitur si modo vel activa vel passiva obedientia praestetur . Quod contra hanc Doctrinam assert facile diluitur ( scilicet ) tum Regem non supremum esse sed Scripturam & statuta , non enim scriptura aut statura sunt gubernatores , sed suprema regula secundum quam Regi est obediendum . Ut vero quaestionem quaestione rependam , videat , An se tam facile expediat ; Si quando lis inter Ecclesiam & civilem potestatem orta fuerit , quaero quis inter illas erit Judex ? Si Papa investituras Episcoporum , verbi gratia , immunitatem Clericorum , provisiones & appellationes sub censuris decreverit , repugnantemque Regem excommunicaverit , quis de gravibus his causis inter illos judicabit ? assignandus Judex , nisi mavis illos in aeternum altercari , quis quaeso erit Judex inter concilium Papale & Comitia Regum ? Ad 29. Cur Reformationem tam avide amplexi sunt tot Nobiles sub Elizabethâ ? Resp. Nihil ad nos cur amplexi sunt , quidam Christum etiam ex invidia praedicarunt . Sperabit vero meliora quilibet qui charitati non valedixit , praesertim cum meminerit quot viros scientiâ celebres , concilio graves , fortitudine claros , pietate insignis protulit ista aetas , quâ neque prior aliqua aetas felicior , nec quam posterior forte aequabit . Nulla tot viris claruit quibus patria & respublica cordi erant , quibus ista vitiorum seges ignota , quae praesenti aetati incubuit . Inimicus est Anglorum famae virtuti & armis qui aliquid vel suggeret , quod tot heroum gloriae obesset ; quorum virtuti patria debet , quod supra Garamantas & Indos , & ad usque sydera nota est . Novimus quid jam facit Nobiles , & è Nobilibus papicolas : spondeat ille pro omnibus qui jam Papismum amplectuntur , & ego vicissim spondebo omnes Nobiles sub Elizabetha non lucri sed Conscientiae gratia reformationem amplexos . Ad 30. Cur plebs Anglicana novitatis avida odit Papismum ? Resp. Propter crudelitatem , falsitatem , tyrannidem & novitatem , quae omnia nativo Anglorum genio repugnant ; non enim ( ut falsò insinuat ) Anglicanà plebs novitatis avidior quàm quaelibet alia gens . At Religio est quibusdam , patriam odio , patrios mores faistidio , & populares , calumniis prosequi : qui peregrinorum morum & rituum miratores , quicquid externum est quasi verum & vetustum magni faciunt . Illa enim religio , quaesensum & rationem naturalem tollit , naturalem etiam in patriam & amicos affectum subvertit . Ad 31. An Ecclesia Anglicana fallibilis ●it vel infallibilis ? Resp. Particularis Ecclesia licet in se fallibilis , quamdiu tamen se observationi praeceptorum divinorum accingit , & mediis quae Deus illi indulsit industriè utitur , id est quamdiu veritas illi usui est , neque falli neque fallere errore aliquo saluti pernicioso potest : idemque de quolibet Christiano dicendum . Dum autem actu non fallitur licet fallibilis fundatur super Petram ; qui enim super eam fundatus non est , salvus esse non potest . Ad 32. De Ligno Scientiae & Vitae , aliud responsum non meretur praeter verba Christi , qui malum facit odit lucem , lignum scientiae non erat lignum vitae ▪ at in eodem Paradise simul consita sunt à Deo ; quae conjunxit Deus maledictus qui dividit . Ad 33. Nonne in Ecclesiâ Anglicanâ desideratur versio Bibliorum multo emendatior & correctior ? Resp. Versio Bibliorum Anglicana emendatior est vulgari Latinâ versione , licet nihil est ab omni parte perfectum . At non vult Romana Ecclesia emendatiorem , sed nullam in vulgari idiomate vers●onem . An non praestat igitur , nobiscum versione minus correctâ uti , quam ●um Romanis nullâ ? mentitur , ubi asserit in versione nostr● ●itiari textus , in favorem carnis , & gratiam schismatis : quod productis ab ipso exemplis patebit . Gal. 5. 17. Ut à nostris vertitur , nec favet carni , nec schismati . An favere dicendus est carni , qui dicet hominem dum carne ducitur omnia quae vult spiritus non posse facere : esto tum carni favebat Sanctus Paulus qui Rom. 8. 7. de Carne affirmat quod ●egi Dei non est subjecta nec esse potest , qui autem in carne sunt Deo placere non possunt . Dan. 4. 24. Caldaeis exacte respondent unde nostra est versio , si igitur conformis sit origini , non multum moramur vulgarem Latinam , cujus tamen non alius sensus est in hoc loco , quám quem verba Anglicana ferant . 1 Cor. 7. 9. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 de illis dicitur , qui sui potestatem non habent ; ita Sanctus Theodoretus , qui ad haec verba hac paraphrasi utitur , Sin autem cupiditatis impetum ferre non potestis , sed ad sustinendum certamen imbecilli animo estis , nulla lex prohibet qu● minus Matrimonium contrahatis . Item Sanctus Anselmus apud Lyram , Qui propter mentis imbecillitatem non possunt continere carnis impulsionem , nubant . Item Lyra , id est , Si donum continendi non acceperint à Deo. Item Commentarius sub nomine Sancti Ambrosii , Quid si impulsu carnis perseverare se viderint non posse : An hi omnes favisse carni & schismatidicendi sunt , eo quòd nostrae versioni astipulantur ? Idem dicendum est de Matt. 19. 11. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , omnes non capaces sunt , vel propter socordiam vel propter impotententiam , quid hoc ad indulgentiam carnis ? An Christus indulgebat carni cum sese explicans addit secundùm vulgarem Latinam ( videlicet v. ejusdem Capitis 12. ) qui potest capere , capiat ? Iob. 7. 1. Exacte Haebraeis verbis respondent , & si marginem inspicias , Latinis . Exod. 20. 4. Recte redditur ab Anglis interpretibus , nec à vulgari discrepa , quae non idolum sed sculptile reddit : sculptile vero non melius Anglicê reddi potest , quam ut habent nostra Biblia ; nec aliud per idolum intelligebant 70. quam imaginem ad cultum fabrefactum : unde plurima exemplaria substituunt , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Deut. 5. 8. idem igitur 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 nec aliter redditur à Callis & Italis , quorum alteri in Catechismis vulgaribus reddunt Image Taillée , alteri Imagine Sulpita . Ut videre est in Diario de S. Amour , Parte 3. cap. 5. ubi haec ipsa quaestio coram Cardinalibus discutitur : frustra igitur in versionem nostram insurgit , quâ dubium est an sincerior extat . Nihil adhuc momenti contra Ecclesiam nostram protulit , si quid habeat proferat tandem ; & Argumentis non quaestionibus , rem agat . Meminerit enim quis sit , qui plures ejusmodi proponere posset , quàm quas facile solvat sapintior . FINIS . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A47432-e1290 Multae gentes , modo una gens , quare una gens ? quia una fides , quia una spes , quia una charitas , quia una expectatio ; postremo quare non una ●●●s , si una patria ? patria 〈…〉 i●●st . S. August . tom . 8. in Psalm . 85. Pag. 1. Pref. Preciperet fraternitati universae , ne quis % os in domum suam reciperet , & venientibus non solum pax & communio , sed etiam tectum & hospitium negaretur . Cyprian . Ep. 75. Qui Sententiam suam quamvis falsam atque perversam nulla pertinaci animositate defendunt , praesertim quam non audacia praesumptionis suae pepererunt , sed à seductis atque in errorem lapsis parentibus acceperunt , querunt autem ca●●a solicitudine veritatem , corrigi parati cum invenerint , nequaquam sunt inter Haereticos deputand● . August . Ep. 162. Notes for div A47432-e3420 Quid ad causam pertineat veritatis , uniuscujusque Episcopi Ordinator , non satis agnoscimus ; Testimoniis divinis ▪ pater Deus est edoctus . Coll. Carth●g . 3. Sect. 244. Superflua quaeri video . Sect. 245. Tandem aliquando expressus dicat , utrum patris loco habeant Caecilianum , ex quo deducta est ista progenies , non enim potest aliqua res sine generatore suo nasci , aut sine capite incipere , aut sine radice sua crescere . Videt igitur Nobilitas tua se originem non habere saepius potestatum si igitur originem non habet , ipse est magis Haereticus , qui non habet patrem , qui habitum patrem judicio suo damnavit . Astipuletur igitur , ut si criminosum patrem ejus constiterit , eum crimina teneant ; si autem innocentem , necesse habeat esse filius innocentis . Coll. Carth. 3. Sect. 236. Episcopum oportet judicare , interpretari , consecrare , ordinare , offerre , baptizare & confirmare . Pontif. de Consecrat . elect . in Episc. It is in Burnet's Pref. Vol. 2. * S●cinus de Baptismo . Vol. 1. ‖ Socinus Res. ad 11 c●p . Vu j●ki Cliss . 7. Arg. 5. ad An. pag. 9. 1537. ad An. 1538. v. 1. pag. 236. Hist. Concil . Trid. dent . ad An. 1558. Notes for div A47432-e8450 St. Iren. lib. 1. cap. 1. p. 29. Paris 1679. Ergo si te confessus fueris peccatorem , est in te veritas . — . — dic hominibus quid e● , dic Deo quid es . Qula si non dixeris Deo damnet Deus , quod in te inveniat . Aug. Tract . 1. in 1. Ep. 1 Joh. Occumenius in locum . St. Cyprian de orat . dom . p. 149. Oxon. Oecum . in Loc. Oecum in Loc. St. Chrys. lib. 3. De Sacerdotio . Non quasi a nobis Remissionem peccatorum consequantur , sed ut per nos ad intelligentiam dil●ctorum suorum convertantur , & domino plenius satisfa●ere cogantur , Cyprian . Ep. 75. p. 219. Oxon. Decret de poenit . Dist. 5. Can 1. a Eudaemon — Episcopo Nectario dedit consilium , ut Presbyterum poenitentiarium tolleret , & Tiberam daret potestatem , uti pro sua quisque Conscientia ad mysteria participanda accederet , Soc. l. 15. cap. 19. Ab illo tempore , quo Novatiani se ab Ecclesia sejunxerant , recusa verantque cum his , qui tempore persecutionis regnante Decio concitatae lapsi erant , communicare , Ecclesiarum Episcopi Canoni adjunxerunt , ut in singulis Ecclesiis Presbyter quidam paenetentiae praeesset , Soc. ih . b Hoc tempore Presbyterum , qui poenitentibus deputatus esset , esse non amplius passus est , omnium primus Nectarius : quem omnes fere Ecclesiarum Praesules imitati sunt , Sozom. lib. 7. cap. 16. c De paenit . Dist. 1 Can. 89. Cui autem horum potius inhaerendum sit , lectoris judicio reservatur . d Igitur 1150. tempore Gratiani nondum super hoc quicquam definitum a●t praeceptum erat ab Ecclesia , quia Gra●●anus non ignorasset nec omisisset , s●d fere post alios 100 Annos introducta fuit oris Confessor per Innocent III. Glossa Margin ubi supra . Si quis ita animo affectus sit ut peccata admissa doleat , simulque in posterum non peccare constituat : etsi ejusmodi dolore non efficiatur , qui ad impetrandam veniam satis esse possit : ei tamen , cum peccata Sacerdota ritè confessus fuerit , vi Clavium scelera omnia remitti , & condonari . Catech. ad Par. par . 2. &c. Poenit. Sect. 47. Ut enim hoc concedamus , contritione peccata deleri ; — quoniam pauci admodum ad hunc gradum pervenirent , fiebat ut à paucissimis hac via peccatorum venia speranda esset . Ubi supra Sect. 46. De la Freq . Communion , part . 2. ch . 40 ▪ item part . 3. chap. 16. Notes for div A47432-e11050 * Just. Vindic. p. 171. a Soc. lib. 2. cap. 37. Col. Allogr . 1612. b Sozom. lib. 4. cap. 27. c Spond . ab Anno 595. d In psal . 85. Christo talc● maledicunt , qui dicunt quod periit Ecclesia de ●o●●orbe te●raru●● , & remansit in sola Africa . Si diceres illi , perdes villam tuam , forte non à ●e temperaret manum ; & dicis Christum perdidisse haereditatem suam redemptam sanguine suo . — Ergo injuriam facis Christo , ut dicas populum ejus ad istam exiguitatem diminutum . Ideo natus es , ideo Christianum te di●is , utlinvideas gloriae Christi . * Aug. Tom. 7. lib. 2. contra Literas Petiliani . Vid. Concil . Later . 4. c. 3. * Vid. Bullam apud Burnet . Col. p. 166. ex Bullar . Cherub , tom . 2. p. 740. † Apud Sanderum de Visibili Mon. p. 710. Notes for div A47432-e12460 a Ipsa etiam loquendi forma Canonem ipsum non indectis hominibus obscuriorem , & difficiliorem reddat . — Est autem hujus obscuritatis praecipua causa , quod in co multipliciter Sacrificii nomen usurpetur ; & subito non nunquam ex uno intellectu in alium transitio fiat . Consid. de iteratione , p. 1004. ( b ) Ut si orationibus his sua veritas constet , intelligi debent ea symbola pan●s , & vini , quae in dominica mensa ad Consecrationem proposita sunt , nomine populi esse oblata . — Deinde dubium non est , quo tempore Canon hic initio usurpabatur , aliquos semper a●fuisse , qui una cum ipso sacerdote , haec Sacrificia laudis effere●aut , & Sacramenta participabant , id enim Canonis verba manifest● significant . — Cujus ignoratio aliis ad superstitionem ●o abutendi aliis , ut impium ipsum damnandi occasionem dedit . Ubi supra , p. 1003. Ut illis proficiat ad honorem , nobis autem ad salat●m : & illi pro nobis inter●●dere dig●entur , &c. O●do Miss● . Suo loco & ordine nominantur , non tamen a Sacerdote qui sacrificat invocantur . De Civit Dei , lib. 22. cap 10. * Consil. Trid. Sess. 25. de Invocatione , & ● . a Article 22. a Critical History of the Old Testament lib. 2. chap. 18 p. 123. London , 1682. b Proleg . 12. sect . 7. p. 83. c De sibyllinis c. 16. p. 184. Lond. 1684. Et plenius ad Iterat . p. Simonis obj . Resp. p. 376. & 377. * See his Chronology ad ann . 1439 † See his Chronicon Pontificum ad ann . 137● . * Cum postea fere semper se●v●ta h●c consuetudo sit ut a●●a prio●um Pontificum , sequentes aut infringe●ent , aut omnino tollerent . Plat. de Vuis Pon. if . in Joh. 6. † Spond . ad ann . 908. Se●● . 2. H●ncque tantum inval●it meret●i●um imperium , ut pro ●r●itrio legitimè creatos Pontifices dimoverent , & violentos ac ne●atios homines int●uderent . Quae considerans , quis non putarit Deum oblitum Ecclesiae sua ? Spond . ubi supra Se●● . 3.