A dialogue between a popish priest, and an English Protestant. Wherein the principal points and arguments of both religions are truly proposed, and fully examined. / By Matthew Poole, author of Synopsis Criticorum.
         Poole, Matthew, 1624-1679.
      
       
         
           1667
        
      
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             A dialogue between a popish priest, and an English Protestant. Wherein the principal points and arguments of both religions are truly proposed, and fully examined. / By Matthew Poole, author of Synopsis Criticorum.
             Poole, Matthew, 1624-1679.
          
           
             The last edition corrected and amended.
          
           [15], 234, [5] p.
           
             Printed by T.M. for Tho. Passinger, and are to be sold by John Williamson ...,
             London, :
             1672.
          
           
             Handwritten index, p. [5] at end.
             Misidentified on UMI microfilm as Wing P2830.
             Reproduction of original in Bodleian Library.
             Includes bibliographical references.
          
        
      
    
     
       
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         eng
      
       
         
           Catholic Church -- Controversial literature.
           Protestantism -- Apologetic works.
        
      
    
     
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           A
           DIALOGUE
           BETWEEN
           A
           Popish
           Priest
           AND
           An
           English
           Protestant
           .
           WHEREIN
           The
           Principal
           Points
           and
           Arguments
           of
           both
           RELIGIONS
           are
           truly
           Proposed
           and
           fully
           Examined
           .
        
         
           By
           MATTHEW
           POOLE
           
             Minister
             of
             the
             Gospel
          
           .
        
         
           The
           Last
           Edition
           corrected
           and
           amended
           .
        
         
           LONDON
           :
           Printed
           by
           
             E.
             Cotes
          
           ,
           and
           are
           to
           be
           sold
           by
           
             S.
             Tompson
          
           at
           the
           Bishops-Head
           in
           
             Duck
             Lane
          
           ,
           1667.
           
        
      
       
         
         
         
           TO
           THE
           READER
           .
        
         
           THE
           variety
           and
           differences
           of
           Religion
           ,
           between
           Protestant
           and
           Papist
           ,
           distract
           the
           minds
           and
           trouble
           the
           hearts
           of
           all
           that
           have
           any
           sense
           of
           Religious
           Concernments
           .
           In
           this
           distraction
           every
           serious
           man
           that
           hath
           any
           care
           of
           his
           Souls
           health
           ,
           cannot
           choose
           but
           heartily
           desire
           and
           seek
           for
           resolution
           :
           To
           obtain
           this
           ,
           there
           can
           be
           no
           better
           way
           than
           to
           understand
           and
           examine
           the
           Pretensions
           and
           Grounds
           of
           both
           Religions
           :
           In
           order
           to
           this
           ,
           I
           have
           endeavoured
           faithfully
           to
           
           represent
           ,
           and
           duly
           to
           weigh
           them
           in
           the
           following
           Discourse
           .
        
         
           Wherein
           though
           I
           have
           not
           discussed
           all
           the
           Points
           in
           Controversie
           between
           us
           and
           them
           ,
           yet
           I
           have
           selected
           the
           most
           material
           ,
           and
           have
           discoursed
           of
           most
           ,
           if
           not
           all
           ,
           their
           weighty
           and
           plausible
           Arguments
           against
           the
           Protestant
           Religion
           .
           And
           this
           ,
           I
           may
           say
           ,
           and
           no
           knowing
           Papist
           ,
           I
           think
           ,
           will
           deny
           it
           ;
           all
           the
           other
           Points
           will
           follow
           the
           fate
           of
           those
           which
           are
           here
           examined
           ,
           and
           live
           or
           die
           with
           them
           .
           I
           know
           it
           will
           be
           pretended
           ,
           that
           I
           have
           managed
           the
           Work
           with
           partiality
           and
           deceit
           ,
           and
           that
           I
           make
           the
           Papist
           speak
           what
           I
           please
           ,
           not
           what
           they
           think
           .
           This
           must
           be
           
           said
           of
           course
           ,
           else
           the
           Romanists
           ,
           lose
           their
           old
           wont
           :
           Nor
           shall
           I
           ,
           at
           all
           think
           it
           strange
           ,
           if
           in
           stead
           of
           solid
           Answers
           ,
           they
           return
           Calumnies
           :
           their
           cause
           requires
           it
           ;
           and
           no
           wonder
           if
           they
           that
           want
           Truth
           in
           their
           Religion
           ,
           make
           lies
           their
           Refuge
           .
        
         
           To
           silence
           all
           clamours
           ,
           and
           satisfie
           all
           jealousies
           will
           be
           impossible
           ,
           I
           shall
           never
           attempt
           it
           .
        
         
           But
           for
           satisfaction
           of
           such
           as
           are
           rational
           and
           ingenuous
           ,
           I
           shall
           give
           this
           following
           account
           .
        
         
           1.
           
           God
           is
           my
           witness
           ,
           that
           I
           did
           diligently
           endeavour
           to
           pick
           out
           the
           strongest
           Arguments
           I
           could
           find
           in
           their
           best
           Authors
           in
           each
           Point
           ;
           nor
           have
           I
           willingly
           declined
           any
           thing
           of
           moment
           in
           the
           
           Questions
           here
           debated
           :
           If
           any
           Papist
           think
           otherwise
           ,
           let
           him
           produce
           their
           greater
           strength
           ,
           and
           I
           hope
           he
           shall
           find
           it
           fairly
           examined
           .
        
         
           2.
           
           The
           several
           Discourses
           ,
           Arguments
           and
           Answers
           which
           I
           put
           into
           the
           Papists
           mouth
           ;
           are
           such
           as
           were
           first
           taken
           out
           of
           their
           mouths
           ,
           and
           so
           it
           is
           but
           a
           piece
           of
           Iustice
           and
           Restitution
           to
           return
           them
           thither
           .
           They
           are
           generally
           such
           as
           are
           either
           known
           to
           be
           their
           opinions
           ,
           and
           by
           themselves
           owned
           ,
           or
           else
           delivered
           in
           the
           sense
           ,
           and
           very
           oft
           in
           the
           words
           ,
           of
           their
           most
           approved
           Authors
           ,
           whom
           I
           have
           quoted
           in
           the
           margent
           :
           But
           here
           I
           expect
           the
           old
           clamour
           of
           false
           Quotations
           ,
           wherein
           
           they
           have
           been
           so
           often
           taken
           tardy
           ,
           that
           they
           must
           now
           look
           for
           the
           common
           infelicity
           of
           —
           not
           to
           be
           believed
           if
           they
           should
           chance
           to
           stumble
           upon
           Truth
           .
           All
           the
           relief
           I
           desire
           in
           that
           case
           is
           ,
           that
           the
           Reader
           who
           is
           able
           to
           do
           it
           ,
           would
           examine
           them
           with
           his
           own
           eyes
           ,
           and
           that
           will
           be
           my
           best
           justification
           .
           I
           shall
           detain
           thee
           no
           longer
           ,
           but
           commend
           thee
           to
           the
           good
           Spirit
           of
           Truth
           to
           enable
           thee
           to
           discern
           between
           good
           and
           evil
           .
        
      
       
         
         
         
           TO
           THE
           PEOPLE
           OF
           THE
           Romish
           Church
           .
        
         
           THE
           Controversies
           between
           your
           Church
           and
           ours
           ,
           are
           by
           Gods
           blessing
           upon
           the
           endeavours
           of
           his
           Ministers
           ,
           brought
           to
           this
           pass
           ,
           that
           I
           am
           perswaded
           there
           is
           nothing
           wanting
           to
           the
           Conviction
           of
           divers
           of
           you
           ,
           but
           a
           free
           and
           diligent
           perusal
           of
           theri
           Books
           ,
           without
           prejudice
           and
           partiality
           :
           This
           your
           Priests
           knowing
           ,
           it
           is
           their
           great
           design
           to
           keep
           you
           from
           looking
           into
           them
           ;
           and
           to
           that
           end
           ,
           to
           possess
           you
           with
           this
           Principle
           ,
           
             That
             you
             need
             not
             trouble
             your selves
             to
             inquire
             into
             Books
             ,
             you
             are
             safe
             enough
             ,
             so
             long
             you
             believe
             as
             the
             
             Church
             believes
             ,
             and
             follow
             the
             Guidance
             of
             your
             Priests
             and
             Fathers
             :
          
           if
           this
           be
           an
           Errour
           ,
           it
           is
           a
           dangerous
           one
           ,
           and
           may
           prove
           Damnable
           ;
           That
           it
           is
           so
           ,
           and
           that
           it
           will
           prove
           but
           a
           broken
           reed
           ,
           when
           you
           lean
           upon
           it
           ,
           I
           hope
           you
           will
           see
           there
           is
           reason
           to
           believe
           ,
           if
           you
           will
           but
           do
           your
           souls
           that
           justice
           ,
           not
           prodigally
           to
           cast
           them
           away
           upon
           blind
           and
           wilful
           mistakes
           ,
           and
           take
           the
           pains
           to
           read
           these
           ensuing
           lines
           .
        
         
           1.
           
           If
           your
           Church
           be
           not
           infallible
           ,
           then
           this
           Principle
           is
           rotten
           ;
           howsoever
           ,
           you
           cannot
           with
           safety
           or
           discretion
           venture
           your
           souls
           on
           it
           ,
           till
           you
           have
           examined
           at
           least
           this
           one
           point
           of
           the
           Churches
           Infallibility
           :
           do
           but
           examine
           that
           ,
           and
           if
           you
           do
           not
           stifle
           both
           Reason
           and
           Conscience
           ,
           you
           will
           see
           it
           is
           a
           meer
           cheat
           .
        
         
           2.
           
           If
           the
           Church
           (
           
             that
             is
          
           ,
           a
           Pope
           with
           a
           Council
           )
           were
           infallible
           (
           which
           is
           all
           that
           your
           great
           Champions
           plead
           for
           )
           yet
           all
           confess
           ,
           that
           your
           particular
           Priests
           (
           upon
           whose
           conduct
           you
           hazard
           your
           eternal
           wel-fare
           )
           are
           fallible
           and
           subject
           to
           mistakes
           .
           It
           is
           most
           certain
           that
           divers
           of
           your
           Priests
           
           and
           Confessors
           lead
           you
           into
           many
           (
           and
           some
           ●f
           them
           damnable
           )
           Errours
           .
           Thousands
           of
           ●our
           Priests
           and
           learned
           Doctors
           do
           charge
           the
           Iesuits
           with
           poysoning
           the
           souls
           of
           the
           people
           with
           divers
           pestilent
           and
           damnable
           errours
           ,
           such
           as
           these
           :
           
             That
             a
             man
             may
             venture
             his
             soul
             upon
             any
             probable
             opinion
             ,
             and
             that
             is
             probable
             ,
             which
             but
             one
             of
             their
             learned
             Doctors
             affirm
             .
             That
             a
             private
             man
             may
             kill
             his
             enemy
             to
             maintain
             his
             honour
             ,
             though
             not
             by
             way
             of
             revenge
             .
             That
             a
             Priest
             may
             absolve
             even
             old
             and
             inveterate
             sinners
             ,
             and
             such
             as
             he
             believes
             incorrigible
             .
             That
             affliction
             or
             sorrow
             for
             sin
             ,
             arising
             meerly
             from
             fear
             of
             punishments
             ,
             is
             sufficient
             for
             salvation
             :
             and
             ,
             that
             the
             affection
             of
             loving
             God
             is
             not
             absolutely
             necessary
             to
             salvation
             .
          
           All
           these
           and
           many
           more
           are
           clearly
           proved
           out
           of
           their
           own
           words
           and
           writings
           in
           the
           Provincial
           letters
           ,
           otherwise
           called
           ,
           the
           Mystery
           of
           Iesuitisme
           :
           See
           the
           Latine
           Edition
           set
           forth
           and
           defended
           by
           Wendrockius
           .
           Now
           if
           the
           Iesuits
           may
           ,
           and
           do
           ,
           so
           damnably
           deceive
           those
           thousands
           of
           you
           that
           depend
           upon
           their
           counsel
           and
           conduct
           ,
           why
           may
           not
           other
           Orders
           deceive
           you
           in
           other
           things
           ?
           Or
           what
           is
           there
           that
           can
           give
           you
           any
           reasonable
           security
           ?
           Is
           it
           their
           learning
           ,
           
           prudence
           ,
           pretended
           devotion
           ,
           or
           honesty
           ,
           or
           any
           other
           such
           like
           quality
           ?
           Why
           ,
           divers
           of
           the
           Iesuits
           have
           given
           as
           plausible
           testimony
           of
           those
           things
           (
           so
           far
           as
           men
           can
           judge
           )
           as
           most
           of
           the
           other
           Orders
           ;
           or
           will
           you
           say
           ,
           all
           other
           Orders
           are
           infallible
           ,
           the
           Iesuits
           only
           excepted
           ?
        
         
           3.
           
           Nothing
           can
           be
           more
           evident
           (
           if
           the
           Bible
           be
           the
           word
           of
           God
           )
           than
           that
           the
           errour
           or
           misguidance
           of
           the
           Priest
           ,
           will
           not
           excuse
           the
           sin
           of
           the
           people
           .
           To
           satisfie
           you
           in
           this
           ,
           I
           beseech
           you
           consider
           these
           few
           reasons
           .
        
         
           1.
           
           The
           Scripture
           condemns
           ,
           and
           God
           severely
           punished
           those
           people
           ,
           which
           did
           follow
           the
           errours
           of
           their
           Priests
           .
           This
           did
           not
           excuse
           the
           Jews
           in
           Aarons
           time
           ,
           that
           they
           were
           misled
           by
           
             Aaron
             ,
             Exod.
          
           32.
           nor
           those
           in
           the
           times
           of
           the
           wicked
           Kings
           of
           Israel
           and
           Judah
           ,
           that
           their
           Priests
           did
           universally
           deceive
           them
           ,
           and
           poor
           Elijah
           ,
           and
           so
           Michaiah
           ,
           were
           left
           alone
           ;
           nor
           those
           in
           Malachy's
           daies
           ,
           that
           
             the
             Priests
             caused
             them
             to
             stumble
             at
             the
             Law
             ,
             Malac
             ,
          
           2.
           8.
           nor
           the
           Crucifiers
           of
           Christ
           ,
           that
           they
           obeyed
           the
           decrees
           of
           their
           Priests
           and
           Rulers
           .
        
         
           I
           list
           not
           to
           repeat
           what
           I
           have
           said
           elsewhere
           :
           therefore
           read
           Nullity
           of
           Romish
           Faith
           
             ch
             .
             2.
             sect
          
           .
           12.
           
           And
           will
           you
           yet
           stumble
           at
           the
           same
           stone
           !
        
         
         
           2.
           
           The
           people
           will
           not
           be
           excused
           by
           their
           Priests
           misguidance
           ,
           because
           they
           neglect
           their
           duty
           .
           If
           indeed
           there
           were
           no
           duty
           incumbent
           upon
           the
           people
           but
           to
           believe
           what
           your
           Priests
           say
           ,
           and
           do
           what
           they
           require
           ,
           then
           your
           Church
           speaks
           reason
           .
           But
           that
           none
           but
           a
           mad
           man
           will
           say
           .
        
         
           There
           are
           several
           duties
           required
           of
           the
           People
           ,
           no
           less
           than
           of
           the
           Priests
           ;
           the
           Law
           of
           God
           was
           not
           given
           only
           to
           the
           Priests
           ,
           but
           to
           all
           the
           People
           ;
           God
           publisheth
           this
           law
           in
           the
           hearing
           of
           all
           the
           people
           ,
           and
           speaks
           in
           the
           singular
           number
           to
           every
           one
           of
           the
           people
           ,
           
             thou
             shalt
             do
             or
             forbear
          
           this
           or
           that
           ;
           and
           the
           curse
           is
           threatned
           to
           the
           people
           ,
           Deut.
           27.
           26.
           
           
             Cursed
             be
             he
             that
             confirmeth
             not
             all
             the
             words
             of
             this
             law
             to
             do
             them
             ,
             and
             all
             the
             people
             shall
             say
          
           Amen
           .
           Which
           the
           Apostle
           repeats
           ,
           
             Gal.
             3.
             10.
             
             Cursed
             is
             every
             one
             ,
          
           not
           Priests
           only
           ,
           but
           the
           People
           too
           ,
           
             that
             continueth
             not
             in
             all
             things
             which
             are
             written
             in
             this
             book
             of
             the
             law
             to
             do
             them
             .
          
           If
           the
           Priests
           then
           should
           have
           taught
           the
           Israelites
           (
           as
           your
           Priests
           now
           teach
           you
           )
           
             thou
             shalt
             worship
             a
             graven
             image
             ,
          
           when
           God
           saith
           ,
           
             thou
             shalt
             not
             worship
             a
             graven
             image
             :
          
           can
           any
           serious
           man
           think
           this
           would
           have
           freed
           them
           from
           
           that
           curse
           ;
           and
           that
           it
           was
           safer
           for
           them
           to
           obey
           the
           Command
           of
           men
           than
           of
           God
           ?
           O
           the
           impudence
           of
           your
           Priests
           that
           dare
           say
           so
           !
           O
           the
           blockishness
           of
           those
           people
           that
           will
           believe
           them
           when
           they
           say
           so
           !
           your
           Pope
           may
           well
           contend
           with
           us
           ,
           for
           it
           seems
           your
           Priests
           will
           contest
           with
           God
           for
           Supremacy
           :
           When
           the
           Priests
           and
           Prophets
           in
           Isaiahs
           daies
           were
           generally
           corrupt
           ,
           the
           people
           are
           not
           advised
           to
           believe
           all
           that
           they
           taught
           ,
           and
           to
           obey
           all
           that
           they
           decreed
           (
           which
           is
           the
           strain
           of
           your
           Church
           )
           but
           are
           commanded
           immediately
           to
           go
           
             to
             the
             law
             and
             to
             the
             testimony
             ,
          
           and
           
             if
             any
             speak
             not
             according
             to
             them
             ,
          
           they
           are
           to
           be
           rejected
           ,
           
             because
             there
             is
             no
             light
             in
             them
             ,
          
           Isa.
           8.
           20.
           
           Even
           people
           are
           required
           
             not
             to
             believe
             every
             spirit
          
           ,
           but
           
             to
             try
             the
             spirits
             ,
             1
             John
          
           4.
           1.
           
           Nor
           did
           the
           Apostles
           exempt
           themselves
           and
           their
           doctrines
           from
           this
           Tryal
           ,
           but
           allowed
           ,
           commended
           ,
           and
           required
           it
           in
           the
           people
           .
        
         
           The
           Beraeans
           are
           not
           reproved
           and
           censured
           (
           as
           they
           would
           certainly
           be
           ,
           that
           should
           tread
           in
           their
           steps
           at
           Rome
           )
           but
           commended
           for
           examining
           the
           Doctrine
           of
           S.
           Paul
           by
           the
           Scripture
           ,
           Acts
           17.
           11.
           
           And
           the
           same
           Apostle
           allows
           the
           Galatians
           ,
           not
           only
           to
           try
           his
           Doctrines
           ,
           whether
           they
           were
           agreeable
           
           to
           what
           they
           had
           received
           ;
           but
           in
           case
           they
           find
           them
           contrary
           ,
           he
           gives
           them
           Commission
           to
           censure
           and
           anathemize
           him
           ,
           Gal.
           1.
           8
           ,
           9.
           
           And
           he
           bespeaks
           the
           Corinthians
           in
           this
           language
           ,
           
             I
             speak
             to
             wise
             men
             ,
             judge
             you
             what
             I
             say
             ,
             1
             Cor.
             10.
             15.
             
          
           And
           he
           commands
           the
           Thessalonians
           to
           
             prove
             all
             things
          
           (
           without
           exception
           )
           as
           well
           as
           to
           
             hold
             fast
             that
             which
             is
             good
             ,
             1
             Thess.
          
           5.
           21.
           
           Consider
           these
           things
           ,
           I
           beseech
           you
           ,
           and
           do
           not
           wilfully
           cast
           away
           your
           precious
           souls
           upon
           trifles
           .
           God
           hath
           given
           the
           Scripture
           as
           a
           rule
           to
           try
           things
           by
           (
           and
           this
           was
           written
           for
           the
           Ignorant
           ,
           and
           the
           people
           ,
           as
           well
           as
           the
           learned
           ,
           and
           the
           Priests
           ,
           John
           20.
           31.
           
           )
           he
           hath
           given
           people
           reason
           to
           try
           things
           with
           ,
           if
           you
           will
           hide
           these
           Talents
           in
           a
           Napkin
           ,
           at
           your
           peril
           be
           it
           .
           The
           Prince
           was
           commanded
           to
           
             read
             and
             meditate
             in
             the
             Book
             of
             the
             Law
             ,
             that
             he
             might
             observe
             to
             do
             all
             that
             is
             written
             therein
             ,
          
           Iosh.
           1.
           8.
           
           Can
           you
           seriously
           think
           that
           if
           the
           corrupt
           Priests
           had
           agreed
           to
           teach
           him
           to
           do
           contrary
           to
           all
           that
           was
           written
           therein
           ,
           that
           this
           would
           have
           excused
           him
           before
           God
           ?
           then
           that
           Precept
           was
           both
           superfluous
           and
           dangerous
           ;
           and
           if
           you
           do
           not
           think
           so
           ,
           (
           as
           you
           must
           needs
           if
           you
           have
           
           any
           Conscience
           )
           then
           neither
           will
           it
           excuse
           your
           people
           ;
           for
           according
           to
           the
           Doctrine
           of
           your
           Church
           ,
           Prince
           and
           People
           are
           alike
           in
           this
           ,
           both
           tied
           to
           believe
           as
           your
           Church
           believes
           .
           God
           commands
           every
           Christian
           to
           
             prove
             his
             own
             work
          
           ;
           and
           tells
           us
           ,
           that
           
             every
             man
             shall
             bear
             his
             own
          
           burden
           ,
           Gal.
           6.
           4
           ,
           5.
           and
           ,
           that
           
             every
             man
             shall
             give
             an
             account
             of
             himself
             to
             God
             ,
          
           Rom.
           14.
           12.
           
           (
           Do
           not
           think
           your
           Priests
           account
           shall
           serve
           turn
           )
           and
           all
           the
           Christian
           people
           of
           Corinth
           are
           commanded
           to
           
             examine
             themselves
             whether
             they
             be
             in
             the
             faith
             ,
             2
             Cor.
          
           13.
           5.
           
           And
           dare
           you
           still
           live
           in
           the
           wilful
           breach
           of
           all
           these
           Commands
           ,
           and
           blindly
           give
           up
           your
           Souls
           ▪
           and
           Consciences
           by
           an
           implicite
           faith
           ,
           to
           the
           conduct
           of
           your
           Priests
           to
           lead
           them
           whether
           they
           please
           ?
        
         
           3.
           
           The
           Scripture
           hath
           given
           you
           full
           warning
           of
           your
           danger
           .
           Read
           but
           two
           places
           ,
           Ezek
           ,
           33.
           8.
           
           (
           where
           God
           assures
           us
           ,
           that
           the
           
             wicked
             shall
             die
             in
             his
             iniquity
             ,
          
           though
           he
           perished
           through
           the
           Watchmans
           fault
           )
           and
           Matth.
           15.
           14.
           
           (
           where
           Christ
           confutes
           this
           very
           opinion
           of
           yours
           ,
           which
           was
           also
           the
           opinion
           of
           the
           Jews
           ,
           that
           they
           were
           safe
           enough
           while
           they
           folowed
           
           their
           Priests
           Decrees
           and
           Counsels
           :
           and
           tells
           them
           .
           
             If
             the
             blind
             lead
             the
             blind
             ,
             both
             shall
             fall
             into
             the
             Ditch
          
           )
           and
           doubt
           of
           this
           ,
           if
           you
           can
           or
           dare
           .
        
         
           In
           a
           word
           ,
           if
           this
           senceless
           Doctrine
           were
           true
           ,
           not
           only
           Men
           would
           have
           dominion
           over
           our
           Faith
           ,
           contrary
           to
           express
           Scripture
           ;
           (
           
             Be
             not
             ye
             called
             Masters
             ,
             for
             one
             is
             your
             Master
             ,
             even
             Christ
             ,
          
           Matth.
           23.
           10.
           
           
             Not
             that
             we
             have
             dominion
             over
             your
             faith
             ,
          
           said
           the
           great
           Apostle
           )
           but
           also
           Christ
           should
           lose
           his
           dominion
           ,
           and
           have
           no
           authority
           in
           his
           Church
           ,
           but
           as
           your
           Priests
           please
           ;
           and
           it
           seems
           he
           shall
           not
           have
           this
           favour
           from
           you
           ,
           to
           continue
           in
           his
           Office
           
             quamdiu
             bene
             se
             gesserit
          
           ,
           but
           
             quamdiu
             vobis
             placuerit
          
           ;
           and
           Christs
           power
           is
           apparently
           limited
           to
           your
           Interpretation
           ;
           but
           the
           power
           of
           your
           Church
           is
           absolute
           and
           unlimited
           ,
           and
           the
           People
           obliged
           to
           believe
           them
           ,
           
             quamcunque
             sententiam
             tulerint
          
           ,
           whatsoever
           they
           shall
           decree
           ,
           as
           Gretser
           expresseth
           it
           .
           If
           this
           be
           not
           to
           make
           the
           word
           and
           Authority
           of
           God
           and
           Christ
           void
           ,
           through
           your
           Traditions
           ,
           I
           know
           not
           what
           is
           .
           I
           will
           trouble
           you
           no
           further
           .
           If
           you
           be
           capable
           of
           Counsel
           ,
           take
           warning
           ,
           and
           suffer
           not
           your selves
           to
           be
           lead
           hoodwinckt
           to
           
           Hell
           ,
           to
           serve
           a
           Carnal
           Interest
           of
           some
           among
           you
           ;
           but
           quit
           your selves
           like
           men
           ,
           and
           by
           the
           grossness
           of
           this
           delusion
           ,
           learn
           to
           suspect
           the
           rest
           ;
           and
           with
           humble
           and
           honest
           hearts
           ,
           read
           what
           is
           here
           proposed
           to
           you
           for
           your
           Souls
           good
           ,
           and
           God
           give
           you
           light
           .
           Let
           my
           Soul
           prosper
           no
           otherwise
           than
           I
           heartily
           wish
           the
           good
           and
           salvation
           of
           you
           all
           ;
           but
           if
           you
           will
           still
           persist
           in
           your
           blindness
           ,
           and
           add
           further
           obstinacy
           to
           your
           Errours
           ,
           I
           shall
           comfort
           my self
           in
           this
           ,
           that
           I
           have
           delivered
           my
           own
           soul
           ,
           your
           blood
           be
           upon
           your
           own
           head
           ,
           for
           there
           it
           will
           assuredly
           fall
           ,
           and
           not
           upon
           the
           Priests
           only
           .
        
         
         
         
           Mr.
           POOLE'S
           Dialogue
           .
        
      
    
     
       
         
         
           A
           DIALOGUE
           BETWEEN
           A
           Popish
           Priest
           AND
           An
           English
           Protestant
           .
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             DEar
             Friend
             I
             am
             glad
             to
             meet
             with
             you
             after
             so
             long
             a
             separation
             ;
             for
             I
             remember
             we
             were
             brought
             up
             at
             the
             same
             School
             ,
             and
             I
             rejoyce
             in
             the
             opportunity
             of
             renewing
             our
             acquaintance
             ,
             I
             desire
             a
             little
             discourse
             with
             you
             ,
             to
             understand
             how
             it
             is
             with
             you
             in
             point
             of
             Religion
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             I
             am
             of
             the
             Protestant
             reformed
             Religion
             .
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             I
             am
             heartily
             sorry
             for
             it
             in
             regard
             of
             our
             old
             intimacy
             ;
             but
             if
             you
             will
             give
             me
             leave
             ,
             I
             do
             not
             question
             ,
             but
             in
             a
             very
             little
             
             time
             to
             give
             you
             such
             reasons
             as
             will
             force
             you
             to
             leave
             those
             damnable
             Errors
             ,
             and
             to
             return
             to
             your
             antient
             Mother
             the
             Church
             of
             Rome
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             With
             a
             very
             good
             will
             shall
             I
             yield
             my self
             to
             your
             Instruction
             ,
             I
             desire
             nothing
             more
             than
             true
             Information
             ;
             I
             know
             I
             have
             a
             Soul
             to
             save
             ,
             which
             is
             of
             infinite
             worth
             ,
             and
             I
             am
             not
             fond
             of
             damnation
             ;
             therefore
             if
             you
             give
             me
             better
             grounds
             than
             I
             have
             ,
             you
             shall
             not
             finde
             me
             obstinate
             :
             but
             this
             I
             must
             tell
             you
             ,
             you
             must
             not
             put
             me
             off
             with
             fancies
             and
             bare
             affirmations
             ;
             but
             I
             shall
             expect
             solid
             proof
             of
             what
             you
             say
             from
             Scripture
             or
             Reason
             ,
             and
             now
             speak
             what
             you
             please
             .
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             First
             ,
             my
             dear
             Friend
             ,
             I
             must
             intreat
             you
             to
             consider
             that
             which
             your
             own
             Ministers
             teach
             you
             ,
             to
             wit
             ,
             That
             there
             is
             no
             Salvation
             to
             be
             had
             out
             of
             the
             true
             Catholick
             Church
             ,
             which
             is
             the
             Church
             of
             Rome
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             That
             none
             is
             saved
             out
             of
             the
             true
             Catholick
             Church
             ,
             I
             grant
             ,
             (
             for
             the
             Catholick
             Church
             includes
             all
             Believers
             in
             the
             world
             )
             but
             a
             man
             may
             be
             saved
             that
             is
             no
             Member
             of
             the
             Roman
             ,
             nor
             of
             any
             particular
             Church
             ;
             for
             although
             you
             ingross
             to
             your selves
             the
             name
             of
             the
             Catholick
             Church
             ,
             nothing
             is
             more
             clear
             ,
             
             than
             that
             the
             Church
             of
             Rome
             is
             at
             best
             but
             a
             part
             of
             the
             Catholick
             Church
             ,
             and
             that
             a
             very
             unsound
             one
             too
             ;
             and
             there
             is
             a
             false
             Church
             (
             in
             which
             salvation
             cannot
             ordinarily
             be
             had
             )
             as
             well
             as
             a
             true
             Church
             (
             out
             of
             which
             it
             cannot
             ordinarily
             be
             had
             )
             and
             I
             have
             heard
             more
             to
             prove
             yours
             to
             be
             this
             false
             Church
             ,
             than
             I
             am
             able
             to
             answer
             ,
             or
             you
             either
             ,
             as
             I
             suppose
             :
             therefore
             this
             being
             only
             a
             general
             (
             and
             so
             an
             unconcluding
             )
             Argument
             ,
             I
             desire
             you
             to
             come
             closer
             to
             the
             point
             .
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             Then
             I
             intreat
             you
             to
             consider
             the
             danger
             of
             your
             way
             ,
             and
             the
             safety
             of
             ours
             ;
             since
             all
             your
             Ministers
             confess
             ,
             That
             a
             Roman
             Catholick
             may
             be
             saved
             in
             his
             Religion
             ;
             but
             all
             our
             Church
             unanimously
             declare
             ,
             That
             you
             are
             damned
             if
             you
             live
             and
             dye
             in
             your
             Religion
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             You
             call
             us
             Schismaticks
             ;
             but
             by
             this
             Argument
             you
             prove
             your selves
             to
             be
             so
             :
             For
             I
             have
             oft
             heard
             it
             ,
             that
             in
             the
             very
             same
             manner
             those
             infamous
             Schismaticks
             ,
             the
             Donatists
             ,
             argued
             against
             St.
             Austin
             and
             the
             Catholick
             Church
             ,
             that
             he
             confessed
             Salvation
             was
             to
             be
             had
             in
             their
             Churches
             ,
             which
             they
             affirmed
             was
             not
             to
             be
             had
             in
             the
             Catholick
             Church
             ;
             and
             this
             very
             thing
             was
             by
             St.
             Austin
             ,
             and
             
             the
             Church
             of
             that
             age
             ,
             condemned
             as
             their
             great
             Schismatical
             Principle
             .
             But
             let
             that
             pass
             .
             To
             come
             to
             your
             Argument
             :
             Remember
             the
             condition
             I
             made
             with
             you
             ,
             that
             you
             do
             not
             put
             me
             off
             with
             Fancies
             and
             bare
             Affirmations
             ,
             for
             I
             expect
             you
             shall
             make
             good
             every
             word
             you
             say
             .
             Now
             here
             I
             find
             you
             under
             a
             great
             Mistake
             ,
             and
             though
             I
             have
             heard
             it
             most
             confidently
             delivered
             by
             divers
             of
             your
             Brethren
             ,
             yet
             you
             must
             give
             me
             leave
             to
             believe
             my
             own
             eyes
             and
             ears
             :
             I
             read
             it
             in
             divers
             Books
             of
             our
             Learned
             English
             Divines
             ,
             and
             I
             have
             heard
             it
             from
             divers
             very
             able
             Scholars
             and
             Ministers
             ,
             That
             Popery
             in
             these
             times
             and
             places
             of
             light
             ,
             is
             to
             those
             that
             may
             see
             that
             light
             and
             will
             not
             ,
             not
             only
             dangerous
             ,
             but
             damnable
             ;
             nor
             do
             I
             pin
             my
             Faith
             upon
             their
             sleeves
             ,
             but
             they
             have
             given
             me
             not
             meer
             Affirmations
             as
             you
             do
             ,
             but
             such
             Arguments
             as
             I
             confess
             I
             cannot
             answer
             :
             yet
             if
             you
             can
             ,
             I
             shall
             be
             ready
             to
             hearken
             to
             you
             .
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             It
             is
             easie
             to
             say
             in
             general
             ,
             that
             our
             Religion
             is
             dangerous
             or
             damnable
             ,
             but
             I
             beseech
             you
             shew
             me
             wherein
             ;
             which
             are
             those
             Doctrines
             and
             Practices
             of
             ours
             wherein
             the
             danger
             lies
             ?
          
        
         
           
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             I
             will
             instance
             in
             few
             of
             many
             particulars
             .
          
        
         
           First
           ,
           That
           Idolatry
           is
           a
           damnable
           sin
           ,
           your
           own
           Authors
           grant
           ,
           and
           Scripture
           expresly
           affirms
           ,
           
             Idolaters
             shall
             not
             inherit
             the
             Kingdom
             of
             God
             ,
          
           1
           Cor.
           6.
           9
           ,
           10.
           and
           Rev.
           21.
           8.
           
           &
           22.
           15.
           
           And
           that
           your
           Church
           is
           guilty
           of
           Idolatry
           ,
           especially
           in
           the
           Worship
           of
           Images
           ,
           and
           of
           the
           Host
           ,
           or
           Consecrated
           Bread
           in
           the
           Sacrament
           ,
           is
           the
           Doctrine
           of
           all
           Protestant
           Churches
           ,
           and
           I
           shall
           prove
           it
           before
           you
           and
           I
           have
           done
           .
        
         
           Secondly
           ,
           That
           the
           Worshippers
           of
           the
           Babylonish
           Beast
           ,
           Rev.
           13.
           and
           14.
           are
           in
           a
           damnable
           condition
           ,
           you
           all
           grant
           ,
           and
           it
           is
           affirmed
           by
           God
           himself
           ,
           Rev.
           14.
           8
           ,
           9
           ,
           10
           ,
           11.
           
           And
           that
           Rome
           is
           that
           Babylon
           ,
           the
           most
           and
           Learnedest
           of
           your
           Doctors
           agree
           ,
           only
           some
           of
           them
           pretend
           it
           is
           
             Rome
             Heathen
          
           as
           it
           was
           ;
           and
           others
           ,
           that
           it
           is
           
             Rome
             Iewish
          
           ,
           as
           it
           shall
           be
           in
           the
           end
           of
           the
           world
           ;
           both
           which
           conceits
           are
           fully
           refuted
           by
           divers
           of
           our
           Authors
           .
        
         
           Thirdly
           ,
           that
           it
           is
           highly
           dangerous
           to
           trust
           in
           Man
           ,
           and
           to
           trust
           in
           our
           own
           Righteousness
           ,
           sufficiently
           appears
           from
           
             Ier.
             17.
             5.
             
             Cursed
             is
             he
             that
             trusteth
             in
             Man
          
           ;
           and
           from
           that
           dreadful
           example
           of
           
           the
           Iews
           ,
           who
           
             going
             about
             to
             establish
             their
             own
             righteousness
             ,
             did
             not
             submit
             to
          
           (
           and
           therefore
           lost
           the
           benefit
           of
           )
           
             the
             righteousness
             of
             Faith
          
           ,
           Rom.
           10.
           3.
           and
           that
           you
           are
           guilty
           of
           this
           sin
           ,
           in
           trusting
           to
           Saints
           and
           to
           your
           own
           Merits
           ,
           shall
           appear
           in
           the
           following
           Discourse
           .
        
         
           Fourthly
           ,
           It
           is
           dangerous
           to
           add
           to
           the
           Word
           of
           God
           ;
           and
           this
           your
           Church
           is
           not
           only
           deeply
           guilty
           of
           ,
           in
           adding
           their
           Traditions
           (
           *
           
             to
             be
             received
             with
             equal
             reverence
             to
             the
             holy
             Scriptures
          
           )
           but
           obligeth
           all
           its
           Members
           to
           justifie
           those
           additions
           ,
           and
           thereby
           intitle
           them
           to
           the
           same
           plagues
           with
           themselves
           .
        
         
           Fifthly
           ,
           (
           to
           name
           no
           more
           )
           it
           is
           highly
           dangerous
           to
           
             break
             any
             of
             Gods
             commands
             ,
             and
             to
             teach
             men
             so
             ,
             and
             to
             make
             the
             word
             of
             God
             of
             none
             effect
             by
             humane
             Traditions
             ,
          
           we
           know
           what
           woes
           Christ
           pronounceth
           against
           the
           Pharisees
           for
           these
           things
           .
           And
           this
           your
           Church
           is
           deeply
           guilty
           of
           ,
           as
           in
           many
           other
           particulars
           ,
           so
           most
           eminently
           in
           this
           ,
           that
           you
           profess
           no
           men
           are
           obliged
           to
           receive
           the
           Scriptures
           as
           the
           word
           of
           God
           ,
           nor
           to
           believe
           any
           thing
           in
           it
           ,
           but
           for
           the
           testimony
           of
           your
           Church
           †
           
           By
           this
           it
           apears
           ,
           that
           you
           have
           no
           reason
           to
           boast
           of
           the
           safeness
           of
           your
           way
           .
           And
           as
           for
           your
           threats
           of
           Damnation
           to
           all
           that
           do
           not
           submit
           themselves
           to
           your
           Church
           and
           Pope
           ,
           however
           they
           may
           terrifie
           silly
           people
           ;
           yet
           toke
           it
           from
           me
           ,
           to
           prudent
           men
           it
           is
           rather
           an
           argument
           of
           the
           falseness
           of
           your
           Religion
           .
           For
           such
           will
           be
           apt
           to
           conclude
           ,
           that
           your
           Faith
           is
           not
           right
           ,
           because
           your
           uncharitableness
           is
           so
           notorious
           ,
           and
           monstrous
           ,
           in
           condemning
           all
           the
           world
           besides
           your selves
           ,
           and
           that
           too
           upon
           such
           frivolous
           pretences
           .
           This
           argument
           therefore
           of
           yours
           hath
           little
           weight
           .
        
         
           Let
           me
           hear
           what
           further
           you
           have
           to
           say
           against
           our
           Religion
           .
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             Then
             consider
             seriously
             of
             this
             ,
             that
             your
             Church
             confesses
             ,
             that
             she
             is
             Fallible
             ,
             and
             that
             you
             have
             no
             Infallible
             Iudge
             among
             you
             ,
             whereby
             Controversies
             may
             be
             ended
             ;
             but
             our
             Church
             is
             Infallible
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             I
             confess
             now
             you
             speak
             home
             ;
             make
             this
             good
             ,
             That
             it
             is
             necessary
             the
             Church
             should
             be
             Infallible
             ,
             and
             that
             yours
             is
             so
             ,
             and
             I
             shall
             ease
             you
             of
             the
             trouble
             of
             further
             Arguments
             :
             But
             I
             must
             ask
             you
             two
             Questions
             :
             1.
             
             What
             is
             the
             meaning
             of
             this
             Proposition
             ?
             and
             ,
             2.
             
             How
             you
             will
             prove
             it
             ?
             For
             the
             first
             ,
             
             I
             ask
             you
             how
             you
             understand
             it
             ?
             What
             is
             this
             Church
             which
             you
             tell
             me
             is
             Infallible
             ?
             Are
             you
             agreed
             among
             your selves
             in
             that
             point
             ?
             To
             tell
             me
             of
             an
             Infallible
             Judge
             ,
             and
             not
             to
             give
             me
             infallible
             assurance
             who
             this
             Judge
             is
             ,
             is
             to
             deceive
             me
             with
             vain
             words
             ,
             and
             will
             no
             more
             end
             Controversies
             than
             to
             tell
             me
             there
             is
             an
             Infallible
             Judge
             in
             Heaven
             :
             For
             where
             I
             pray
             you
             shall
             I
             finde
             your
             Infallible
             Judge
             ?
             Now
             I
             am
             in
             quest
             of
             him
             ,
             I
             intreat
             your
             counsel
             and
             direction
             .
             Tell
             me
             then
             ,
             Is
             it
             the
             body
             of
             your
             Church
             ,
             and
             multitude
             of
             Catholicks
             that
             is
             your
             Infalible
             Judge
             ?
             Do
             you
             make
             your
             people
             the
             Judge
             of
             Controversies
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             No
             ,
             For
             we
             all
             agreed
             the
             Government
             of
             the
             Church
             is
             Monarchical
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Are
             you
             then
             agreed
             that
             the
             Pope
             alone
             is
             the
             Infallible
             Judge
             ?
             speak
             the
             truth
             ,
             and
             the
             whole
             truth
             ,
             and
             nothing
             but
             the
             truth
             .
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             I
             will
             deal
             truly
             with
             you
             ,
             we
             are
             not
             all
             agreed
             in
             that
             point
             ,
             the
             French
             Catholicks
             generally
             deny
             it
             ,
             and
             divers
             of
             our
             eminent
             Doctors
             and
             Writers
             ,
             as
             (
             Bellarmin
             confesses
             *
             )
             and
             among
             the
             rest
             a
             Pope
             ,
             Adrian
             by
             name
             ,
             denies
             it
             ,
             and
             even
             they
             that
             seem
             
             to
             be
             better
             minded
             towards
             the
             Pope
             ,
             acknowledge
             that
             
               it
               is
               no
               heresie
               to
               deny
               this
               ,
               and
               that
               divers
               good
               Catholicks
               deny
               it
               ,
               and
               that
               it
               is
               but
               a
               disputable
               point
            
             *
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Is
             it
             then
             a
             General
             Council
             that
             is
             infallible
             ?
             Are
             you
             agreed
             in
             that
             ?
             deal
             truly
             and
             clearly
             with
             me
             .
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             Then
             I
             must
             confess
             we
             are
             not
             all
             agreed
             in
             that
             neither
             :
             For
             the
             Pope
             will
             deny
             this
             ,
             and
             all
             the
             Iesuites
             and
             Italian
             Catholicks
             ,
             and
             others
             ,
             who
             ascribe
             this
             Infallibility
             to
             the
             Pope
             only
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Who
             then
             is
             this
             Infallible
             Judge
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             The
             Pope
             and
             a
             General
             Council
             agreeing
             together
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Is
             there
             then
             at
             this
             time
             any
             General
             Council
             at
             Rome
             ,
             or
             elsewhere
             ,
             which
             doth
             agree
             with
             the
             Pope
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             No
             ,
             but
             though
             there
             be
             no
             Council
             now
             in
             their
             persons
             ,
             yet
             there
             is
             in
             their
             writings
             ,
             and
             the
             Pope
             agreeing
             with
             them
             is
             infallible
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             But
             I
             have
             been
             told
             that
             all
             your
             Doctors
             agree
             in
             this
             ,
             that
             no
             Writing
             can
             be
             a
             judge
             of
             Controversies
             :
             If
             you
             deny
             this
             ,
             I
             should
             think
             the
             writing
             of
             God
             (
             which
             you
             all
             acknowledge
             the
             
             Scripture
             to
             be
             )
             might
             challenge
             this
             priviledge
             as
             well
             as
             the
             writings
             of
             any
             Council
             or
             men
             .
             You
             all
             plead
             for
             the
             absolute
             necessity
             of
             a
             living
             Infallible
             Judge
             .
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             Though
             Catholicks
             are
             divided
             in
             the
             manner
             of
             expression
             ,
             yet
             all
             are
             agreed
             in
             this
             general
             Proposition
             ,
             That
             our
             Church
             is
             Infallible
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Call
             you
             this
             only
             a
             difference
             in
             manner
             of
             expression
             ,
             for
             one
             to
             say
             the
             Pope
             is
             Infallible
             ,
             another
             to
             say
             he
             is
             fallible
             ?
             for
             some
             of
             you
             to
             affirm
             the
             infallibility
             of
             Councils
             ,
             others
             utterly
             to
             deny
             it
             ?
             I
             beseech
             you
             remember
             ,
             I
             am
             inquiring
             after
             Particulars
             (
             and
             therefore
             do
             not
             put
             me
             off
             with
             deceitful
             Generals
             )
             who
             ,
             and
             where
             is
             the
             man
             or
             men
             ,
             to
             whom
             I
             must
             go
             to
             be
             infallibly
             resolved
             in
             all
             Controversies
             ?
             For
             if
             the
             King
             should
             tell
             his
             people
             he
             hath
             appointed
             a
             Judge
             to
             end
             all
             their
             civil
             Controversies
             ,
             this
             would
             be
             to
             no
             purpose
             ,
             unless
             he
             should
             tell
             who
             that
             Judge
             is
             ,
             So
             that
             till
             I
             hear
             you
             are
             agreed
             in
             this
             particular
             ,
             my
             doubts
             and
             perplexities
             must
             needs
             remain
             .
             And
             then
             for
             the
             next
             point
             :
             I
             ask
             you
             ,
             how
             you
             prove
             this
             Infallibility
             which
             you
             pretend
             to
             ,
             I
             must
             tell
             you
             since
             it
             is
             the
             very
             foundation
             of
             
             your
             Faith
             ,
             I
             expect
             very
             clear
             and
             undeniable
             Proofs
             ,
             I
             pray
             you
             bring
             me
             two
             or
             three
             of
             your
             strongest
             Arguments
             .
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             In
             this
             you
             speak
             reason
             ,
             and
             I
             shall
             comply
             with
             your
             desires
             ,
             I
             shall
             give
             you
             two
             or
             three
             plain
             and
             evident
             Scriptures
             to
             prove
             it
             .
             1.
             
             That
             of
             Mat.
             16.
             18.
             
             Hence
             I
             thus
             argue
             ,
             The
             Church
             is
             said
             to
             be
             built
             upon
             St.
             Peter
             ,
             he
             is
             the
             Rock
             spoken
             of
             ;
             and
             this
             Rock
             doth
             together
             with
             S.
             Peter
             include
             his
             Successours
             ,
             and
             the
             Church
             built
             upon
             this
             Rock
             ,
             (
             that
             is
             united
             to
             ,
             and
             built
             upon
             the
             Pope
             )
             is
             infallible
             ,
             for
             it
             is
             said
             ,
             
               The
               Gates
               of
               Hell
               shall
               not
               prevail
               against
               it
               .
            
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Not
             one
             of
             all
             these
             things
             is
             true
             .
          
        
         
           1.
           
           It
           is
           more
           probable
           that
           not
           
           Peter's
           Person
           ,
           but
           his
           Doctrine
           or
           his
           Confession
           concerning
           Christ
           ,
           (
           which
           now
           he
           made
           )
           is
           the
           Rock
           upon
           which
           the
           Church
           is
           built
           ;
           Scripture
           is
           its
           own
           best
           Interpreter
           :
           It
           is
           not
           Peter
           ,
           but
           Christ
           which
           is
           the
           foundation
           of
           the
           Church
           ,
           as
           he
           is
           called
           ,
           Isa.
           28.
           16.
           compared
           with
           1
           Pet.
           2.
           6
           ,
           7
           ,
           8.
           
           It
           is
           expresly
           ,
           1
           Cor.
           3.
           11.
           
           
             Other
             foundation
             can
             no
             man
             lay
             but
             that
             that
             is
             laid
             ,
             which
             is
             Iesus
             Christ
          
           ;
           and
           this
           is
           the
           more
           considerable
           ,
           because
           ,
           he
           speaks
           against
           those
           that
           made
           the
           Apostles
           foundations
           ,
           one
           saying
           ,
           
             I
             am
             of
             Paul
             ,
             
             another
             ,
             I
             of
             Apollos
             ,
             I
             of
             Cephas
             .
          
           And
           if
           this
           were
           spoken
           of
           Peter
           ,
           no
           more
           is
           said
           of
           him
           here
           ,
           than
           is
           said
           of
           all
           the
           Prophets
           and
           Apostles
           ,
           
             Ephes.
             2.
             20.
             
             Ye
             are
             built
             upon
             the
             foundation
             of
             the
             Apostles
             and
             Prophets
          
           —
           And
           besides
           ,
           if
           by
           this
           Text
           Peter
           had
           been
           made
           supreme
           and
           Infallible
           Head
           of
           the
           Church
           ,
           and
           Judge
           of
           all
           Controversies
           ,
           no
           Man
           in
           his
           wits
           can
           believe
           that
           St.
           Paul
           would
           have
           treated
           him
           so
           irreverently
           (
           to
           speak
           the
           least
           )
           as
           he
           doth
           Galat.
           2.
           (
           which
           is
           more
           considerable
           ,
           because
           then
           Christ
           was
           dead
           ,
           and
           Peter
           in
           the
           actual
           exercise
           of
           his
           Headship
           and
           Government
           ,
           and
           if
           we
           may
           believe
           you
           ,
           publickly
           and
           universally
           owned
           for
           such
           )
           that
           he
           would
           have
           equalled
           himself
           with
           him
           as
           he
           doth
           ,
           
             Verse
             7.
             
             The
             Gospel
             of
             the
             Vncircumcision
             was
             committed
             to
             me
             ,
             as
             the
             Gospel
             of
             the
             Circumcision
             to
             Peter
             :
          
           And
           that
           he
           would
           have
           spoken
           promiscuously
           of
           
             Iames
             ,
             Cephas
          
           and
           Iohn
           ,
           that
           they
           
             all
             seemed
             to
             be
             pillars
          
           ,
           Ver.
           9.
           and
           not
           a
           word
           of
           Peters
           being
           the
           rock
           and
           foundation
           ;
           and
           that
           he
           would
           have
           withstood
           St.
           
             Peter
             to
             his
             face
          
           ,
           as
           he
           did
           ,
           Verse
           11.
           
        
         
           2.
           
           If
           this
           were
           meant
           of
           Peter
           ;
           yet
           this
           is
           nothing
           to
           his
           Successours
           .
           You
           must
           first
           prove
           that
           St.
           Peter
           had
           a
           Successour
           
           in
           that
           supposed
           universal
           Headship
           ,
           which
           will
           be
           very
           hard
           to
           perswade
           any
           understanding
           Man
           ,
           for
           ,
           1.
           
           That
           authority
           which
           the
           Apostles
           had
           over
           all
           Churches
           ,
           was
           peculiar
           to
           them
           ,
           and
           died
           with
           them
           :
           we
           see
           God
           did
           not
           think
           it
           necessary
           to
           leave
           a
           successour
           to
           Moses
           ,
           (
           in
           his
           full
           and
           absolute
           Authority
           )
           no
           more
           was
           it
           necessary
           to
           leave
           any
           after
           Peter
           and
           the
           Apostles
           :
           and
           the
           reason
           is
           the
           same
           ,
           because
           the
           work
           of
           Law-giving
           was
           finish'd
           ,
           and
           those
           that
           came
           after
           were
           tyed
           to
           the
           execution
           of
           their
           Laws
           .
           2.
           
           Besides
           ,
           if
           Peter
           did
           leave
           a
           Successour
           ,
           what
           prudent
           man
           can
           believe
           ,
           that
           he
           would
           not
           have
           left
           some
           notice
           ,
           thereof
           to
           the
           world
           in
           one
           of
           his
           Epistles
           ?
           I
           find
           he
           saith
           ,
           
             I
             will
             endeavour
             that
             you
             may
             be
             able
             after
             my
             decease
             ,
             to
             have
             these
             things
             in
             remembrance
             ,
          
           2
           Pet.
           1.
           15.
           
           How
           easie
           had
           it
           been
           to
           have
           added
           ,
           
             to
             that
             end
             I
             leave
             a
             Successour
             ,
             whom
             you
             must
             hear
             in
             all
             things
             ?
          
           I
           find
           Moses
           was
           very
           careful
           to
           leave
           a
           Successour
           ,
           and
           so
           was
           Elias
           ,
           and
           David
           ,
           and
           Christ
           (
           
             as
             my
             Father
             sent
             me
             ,
             so
             send
             I
             you
          
           )
           :
           Was
           Peter
           the
           only
           careless
           person
           ,
           that
           would
           not
           be
           at
           the
           expence
           of
           a
           word
           to
           prevent
           all
           those
           Heresies
           ,
           Schisms
           ,
           and
           Contentions
           which
           were
           even
           then
           
           broached
           ,
           and
           most
           likely
           to
           increase
           after
           the
           death
           of
           the
           Apostles
           in
           the
           Christian
           world
           ?
        
         
           3.
           
           If
           any
           did
           succeed
           St.
           Peter
           in
           his
           Head-ship
           ,
           one
           would
           think
           it
           should
           have
           been
           one
           of
           the
           surviving
           Apostles
           ,
           especially
           St.
           Iohn
           ,
           who
           lived
           above
           20
           years
           after
           him
           ;
           for
           who
           can
           believe
           (
           that
           regards
           what
           he
           believes
           )
           that
           Linus
           or
           Clemens
           who
           is
           said
           to
           be
           St.
           Peters
           successour
           ,
           should
           be
           superiour
           to
           St.
           Iohn
           ;
           yet
           the
           foundation
           of
           all
           your
           Religion
           is
           built
           upon
           this
           nonsensical
           opinion
           :
           And
           if
           this
           priviledge
           did
           belong
           not
           only
           to
           Peter
           ,
           but
           some
           of
           his
           successours
           ;
           yet
           to
           say
           ,
           it
           belongs
           to
           all
           following
           Popes
           (
           divers
           of
           which
           are
           acknowledged
           to
           be
           Apostatical
           and
           most
           wicked
           wretches
           )
           and
           that
           such
           Monsters
           as
           were
           the
           true
           slaves
           of
           the
           Devil
           ,
           and
           brands
           of
           Hell
           ,
           should
           be
           the
           foundations
           of
           the
           Church
           ,
           by
           whom
           the
           Church
           was
           to
           be
           secured
           from
           the
           gates
           of
           Hell
           ,
           will
           not
           find
           belief
           with
           serious
           Men
           till
           East
           and
           West
           meet
           together
           :
           and
           besides
           ,
           when
           our
           Divines
           say
           ,
           The
           Pope
           is
           Antichrist
           ,
           and
           the
           Man
           of
           sin
           ;
           you
           use
           to
           answer
           ,
           that
           these
           expressions
           ,
           
             the
             Antichrist
          
           ,
           and
           
             the
             Man
             of
             sin
          
           ,
           must
           needs
           point
           at
           a
           particular
           
           Man
           ,
           and
           not
           a
           whole
           Order
           of
           Men
           ;
           which
           if
           it
           be
           true
           ,
           the
           expression
           there
           used
           of
           
             this
             Rock
          
           (
           especially
           being
           so
           particularly
           levell'd
           at
           Peter
           ,
           as
           you
           will
           needs
           have
           it
           )
           cannot
           with
           any
           colour
           be
           thought
           to
           mean
           a
           succession
           of
           many
           hundreds
           of
           persons
           .
           And
           sure
           I
           am
           ,
           whatever
           the
           Text
           speaks
           of
           Peter
           ,
           it
           speaks
           not
           one
           word
           of
           Peters
           Successours
           ,
           and
           therefore
           it
           is
           as
           easie
           for
           me
           to
           deny
           it
           ,
           as
           you
           to
           affirm
           it
           .
        
         
           3.
           
           Whatever
           this
           promise
           or
           priviledge
           is
           ,
           it
           belongs
           no
           more
           to
           the
           Church
           of
           Rome
           ,
           than
           to
           the
           Church
           of
           England
           ,
           the
           name
           of
           one
           is
           heer
           as
           clear
           as
           the
           other
           ;
           It
           is
           a
           general
           promise
           extending
           to
           the
           Church
           at
           all
           times
           and
           places
           ,
           signifying
           ,
           that
           God
           will
           have
           and
           maintain
           a
           Church
           to
           the
           end
           of
           the
           World
           :
           And
           if
           this
           place
           concerns
           only
           those
           that
           are
           built
           upon
           St.
           Peter
           ,
           you
           grant
           the
           Church
           of
           England
           once
           was
           ,
           as
           the
           Church
           of
           Rome
           now
           is
           ,
           built
           upon
           him
           too
           ,
           when
           it
           was
           subject
           to
           the
           Pope
           .
           And
           if
           their
           being
           built
           upon
           St.
           Peter
           did
           not
           secure
           them
           from
           Fallibility
           and
           Apostacy
           (
           as
           you
           say
           it
           did
           not
           )
           then
           consequently
           the
           building
           of
           the
           Church
           of
           Rome
           upon
           St.
           Peter
           did
           not
           make
           them
           infallible
           ,
           but
           they
           might
           
           (
           as
           we
           say
           and
           prove
           they
           did
           )
           fall
           away
           .
           And
           certainly
           one
           of
           these
           two
           things
           must
           be
           granted
           ,
           either
           that
           every
           Church
           which
           did
           once
           adhere
           to
           Peter
           ,
           or
           the
           Pope
           ,
           are
           secured
           by
           this
           Text
           from
           falling
           away
           ;
           or
           else
           ,
           that
           notwithstanding
           this
           Promise
           ,
           every
           Church
           that
           now
           is
           subject
           to
           the
           Pope
           may
           fall
           away
           from
           him
           ,
           and
           so
           the
           Pope
           may
           be
           a
           head
           without
           a
           Body
           ,
           a
           Shepherd
           without
           so
           much
           as
           one
           sheep
           :
           For
           if
           this
           Text
           did
           prove
           what
           they
           desire
           ,
           that
           all
           that
           do
           adhere
           to
           the
           Pope
           ,
           whilst
           they
           do
           so
           ,
           are
           Infallible
           ;
           yet
           it
           doth
           not
           prove
           ,
           that
           they
           all
           shall
           constantly
           adhere
           to
           him
           (
           which
           is
           quite
           another
           thing
           .
           )
        
         
           4.
           
           If
           this
           Promise
           and
           Priviledge
           did
           belong
           to
           any
           particular
           Church
           ,
           and
           to
           yours
           (
           in
           a
           special
           manner
           )
           yet
           it
           doth
           not
           prove
           your
           Infallibility
           :
           This
           place
           concerns
           Doctrines
           no
           more
           than
           Manners
           ,
           and
           secures
           your
           Church
           no
           more
           against
           damnable
           Heresies
           ,
           than
           against
           damnable
           Practices
           ,
           since
           the
           gates
           of
           Hell
           prevail
           by
           one
           as
           well
           as
           by
           the
           other
           ,
           and
           since
           you
           acknowledge
           that
           Peters
           successours
           have
           lived
           and
           died
           in
           damnable
           sins
           ,
           they
           might
           as
           well
           die
           in
           damnable
           Heresies
           :
           Besides
           ,
           if
           this
           Text
           did
           prove
           the
           Popes
           Supremacy
           ,
           yet
           here
           
           is
           not
           one
           word
           concerning
           his
           Infallibility
           ,
           which
           is
           quite
           another
           thing
           .
        
         
           5.
           
           If
           this
           Text
           did
           prove
           any
           Infallibility
           ,
           it
           doth
           not
           prove
           the
           Popes
           Infallibility
           (
           which
           you
           alledge
           this
           Text
           for
           )
           but
           the
           Infallibility
           of
           the
           Church
           which
           is
           built
           upon
           it
           .
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             But
             that
             Church
             is
             Infallible
             because
             they
             adhere
             to
             the
             Rock
             ,
             viz.
             the
             Pope
             who
             therefore
             must
             needs
             be
             more
             Infallible
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Then
             it
             seems
             the
             foundation
             of
             all
             your
             Infallibility
             is
             in
             the
             Pope
             ,
             as
             Peters
             Successour
             ,
             whom
             multitudes
             of
             your
             own
             Learned
             and
             approved
             Doctors
             acknowledge
             to
             be
             Fallible
             .
             I
             have
             heard
             you
             all
             confess
             ,
             That
             your
             Popes
             may
             erre
             in
             Manners
             and
             Practice
             .
             Is
             it
             so
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             Yes
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Then
             whatsoever
             he
             thinks
             ,
             he
             may
             speak
             lyes
             ,
             and
             deceive
             the
             World
             ,
             in
             telling
             them
             he
             is
             Infallible
             ;
             and
             surely
             if
             a
             Man
             will
             deceive
             for
             any
             thing
             ,
             he
             will
             do
             it
             for
             such
             an
             Empire
             as
             the
             Pope
             holds
             :
             but
             I
             have
             heard
             also
             your
             Popes
             may
             erre
             in
             matters
             of
             Fact.
             
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             That
             we
             do
             all
             agree
             in
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Then
             he
             may
             mistake
             and
             erre
             
             in
             these
             Questions
             ,
             whether
             Peter
             left
             a
             Successour
             ?
             and
             ,
             whether
             the
             Bishop
             of
             Rome
             be
             the
             person
             ?
             and
             ,
             whether
             there
             hath
             been
             that
             uninterrupted
             succession
             in
             the
             Papal
             Chair
             ,
             which
             you
             pretend
             to
             be
             necessary
             ,
             which
             must
             be
             Infallibly
             certain
             ,
             or
             else
             the
             Pope
             holds
             his
             Authority
             only
             upon
             courtesie
             ;
             so
             this
             place
             will
             not
             stand
             you
             in
             much
             stead
             .
             Let
             me
             hear
             if
             you
             have
             any
             better
             Argument
             .
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             There
             is
             another
             place
             ,
             which
             if
             you
             were
             not
             an
             obstinate
             sort
             of
             Men
             ,
             would
             satisfie
             you
             all
             ,
             and
             that
             is
             ,
             1
             Tim.
             3.
             15.
             where
             the
             Church
             is
             called
             ,
             
               The
               pillar
               and
               ground
               of
               truth
               ,
            
             and
             therefore
             is
             Infallible
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Let
             me
             first
             ask
             you
             ,
             What
             Church
             is
             there
             spoken
             of
             ,
             which
             you
             say
             is
             Infallible
             ?
             Is
             it
             the
             Church
             of
             Rome
             ?
             Was
             Timothy
             Bishop
             of
             Rome
             or
             no
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             No
             ,
             he
             was
             Bishop
             of
             Ephesus
             :
             But
             why
             do
             you
             ask
             that
             Question
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             This
             place
             apparently
             speaks
             of
             that
             Church
             ,
             in
             ,
             and
             over
             which
             Timothy
             was
             set
             :
             so
             if
             it
             speak
             of
             any
             particular
             Church
             ,
             it
             must
             be
             that
             of
             Ephesus
             (
             which
             you
             confess
             was
             Fallible
             )
             not
             that
             of
             Rome
             ;
             or
             if
             it
             speak
             of
             the
             Universal
             
             Church
             ,
             that
             might
             be
             Infallible
             ,
             though
             the
             Pope
             and
             all
             the
             Church
             of
             Rome
             (
             truly
             so
             called
             )
             should
             fail
             and
             perish
             .
             Tell
             me
             ,
             I
             beseech
             you
             ,
             in
             particular
             ,
             What
             is
             that
             Church
             ,
             which
             from
             this
             and
             other
             places
             ,
             you
             conclude
             to
             be
             Infallible
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             It
             is
             the
             Pope
             with
             the
             General
             Council
             ,
             as
             I
             have
             told
             you
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Then
             I
             pray
             you
             make
             sense
             of
             the
             verse
             ;
             for
             to
             me
             it
             is
             meer
             non-sense
             —
             Timothy
             is
             here
             advised
             to
             
               behave
               himself
               rightly
               in
               the
               house
               of
               God
               ,
               which
               is
               the
               Church
               of
               God
               ,
               and
               the
               Pillar
               and
               Ground
               of
               Truth
               :
            
             According
             to
             your
             opinion
             ,
             this
             is
             the
             sense
             of
             it
             ,
             
               That
               thou
               mightest
               know
               how
               to
               behave
               thy self
               in
               the
               Pope
               and
               a
               General
               Council
               .
            
             I
             pray
             you
             tell
             me
             truly
             ,
             Was
             there
             a
             General
             Council
             then
             sitting
             .
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             No
             :
             there
             was
             no
             General
             Council
             from
             that
             time
             ,
             till
             two
             or
             three
             hundred
             years
             after
             ,
             when
             the
             Councill
             of
             Nice
             was
             assembled
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Then
             it
             seems
             to
             me
             a
             most
             unreasonable
             thing
             to
             say
             ,
             that
             Paul
             directs
             Timothy
             how
             to
             behave
             himself
             in
             a
             General
             Council
             (
             which
             was
             not
             then
             in
             being
             ,
             nor
             like
             to
             be
             )
             and
             that
             he
             doth
             not
             direct
             him
             how
             to
             behave
             himself
             
             in
             that
             body
             ,
             the
             Church
             in
             which
             he
             then
             resided
             and
             ruled
             .
          
           
             Besides
             ,
             I
             pray
             you
             ,
             where
             is
             the
             Pope
             or
             a
             Council
             called
             the
             House
             of
             God
             ?
             If
             they
             have
             any
             thing
             to
             do
             there
             ,
             they
             are
             the
             Governours
             ,
             the
             Stewards
             ,
             the
             Officers
             of
             the
             House
             ,
             but
             are
             never
             called
             the
             House
             of
             God
             ,
             but
             this
             name
             is
             alwayes
             ascribed
             to
             the
             multitude
             of
             Believers
             and
             Professors
             ,
             as
             Heb.
             2.
             5
             ,
             6.
             where
             Moses
             (
             whose
             place
             in
             the
             Church
             the
             Pope
             pretends
             to
             )
             is
             not
             the
             House
             ,
             but
             the
             
               Servant
               ,
               the
               Officer
               of
               it
            
             ;
             so
             
               Heb.
               10.
               21.
               
               Having
               an
               High-Priest
               over
               the
               house
               of
               God
            
             ;
             so
             1
             
               Pet.
               2.
               5.
               
               Ye
               as
               lively
               stones
               are
               built
               up
               as
               a
               spiritual
               house
               :
            
             And
             if
             you
             know
             any
             one
             place
             where
             it
             is
             otherwise
             used
             ,
             I
             pray
             speak
             ;
             if
             not
             (
             as
             by
             your
             silence
             I
             see
             you
             do
             not
             )
             all
             understanding
             men
             will
             conclude
             that
             neither
             Pope
             nor
             Council
             are
             concerned
             in
             this
             priviledge
             .
             But
             besides
             ,
             let
             me
             further
             ask
             you
             ,
             Can
             you
             give
             me
             assurance
             that
             these
             words
             which
             
               is
               the
               ground
               and
               pillar
               of
               Truth
               ,
            
             imply
             Infallibility
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             It
             is
             true
             ,
             the
             words
             are
             figurative
             and
             metaphorical
             ,
             but
             that
             is
             the
             meaning
             of
             them
             .
          
        
         
           
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             My
             old
             Friend
             ,
             can
             you
             advise
             me
             to
             venture
             my
             salvation
             upon
             a
             metaphor
             ?
             or
             that
             that
             is
             the
             true
             and
             only
             sense
             of
             the
             words
             ?
             Prove
             it
             ,
             and
             I
             am
             your
             Prisoner
             ;
             but
             it
             seemeth
             to
             me
             far
             otherwise
             :
             God
             saith
             to
             
               Ieremy
               ,
               I
               have
               made
               thee
               an
               Iron
               Pillar
               ,
            
             Jer.
             1.
             18.
             
             Was
             Ieremy
             therefore
             Infallible
             ?
             Peradventure
             ,
             that
             was
             too
             mean
             a
             metal
             to
             amount
             to
             Infallibility
             ;
             but
             your
             Church
             is
             a
             brazen
             Pillar
             ,
             and
             so
             it
             seems
             by
             the
             impudence
             of
             your
             assertions
             .
             I
             read
             in
             Eusebius
             ,
             *
             That
             the
             Saints
             of
             Vienna
             and
             Lyons
             ,
             called
             Attalus
             the
             Martyr
             ,
             
               a
               pillar
               and
               ground
               of
               the
               Truth
               ,
            
             yet
             you
             will
             not
             allow
             him
             to
             be
             Infallible
             ;
             by
             which
             and
             divers
             other
             passages
             it
             is
             sufficiently
             evident
             ,
             that
             a
             Pillar
             in
             the
             Church
             is
             no
             more
             than
             a
             man
             that
             is
             well
             rooted
             and
             grounded
             and
             strong
             in
             the
             faith
             ,
             as
             he
             is
             a
             reed
             that
             is
             tossed
             to
             and
             fro
             with
             every
             winde
             of
             doctrine
             ;
             let
             me
             therefore
             hear
             if
             you
             have
             any
             better
             arguments
             .
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             Then
             John
             16.
             3.
             
               is
               an
               express
               promise
            
             ,
             When
             the
             Spirit
             of
             truth
             is
             come
             ,
             he
             will
             guide
             you
             into
             all
             truth
             ,
             
               and
               therefore
               our
               Chuch
               is
               infallible
               .
            
          
        
         
           
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Tell
             me
             I
             pray
             you
             ,
             Is
             not
             this
             promise
             made
             to
             the
             Apostles
             only
             ?
             If
             so
             ,
             What
             is
             that
             to
             you
             ?
             If
             you
             say
             otherwise
             ,
             How
             do
             you
             make
             it
             appear
             that
             it
             concerns
             their
             Successours
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             That
             appears
             by
             comparing
             another
             place
             with
             it
             ,
             
               John
               14.
               16.
               
               The
               Comforter
               shall
               abide
               with
               you
               for
               ever
               ,
            
             not
             surely
             in
             their
             persons
             ;
             for
             ,
             they
             were
             to
             die
             in
             a
             little
             time
             ,
             but
             in
             their
             Successours
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             I
             expected
             a
             place
             which
             had
             said
             at
             the
             least
             ,
             that
             the
             Spirit
             Should
             lead
             them
             into
             all
             truth
             for
             ever
             ;
             but
             this
             is
             quite
             another
             thing
             ;
             you
             dare
             not
             say
             ,
             that
             every
             one
             with
             whom
             the
             Comforter
             abides
             is
             infallible
             ;
             but
             to
             forgive
             you
             this
             great
             mistake
             :
             Tell
             me
             truly
             ,
             Is
             it
             then
             your
             opinion
             ,
             That
             all
             the
             Successors
             of
             each
             of
             the
             Apostles
             ,
             viz.
             all
             Bishops
             ,
             or
             all
             Ministers
             are
             infallible
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             No
             ,
             in
             no
             wise
             ,
             for
             it
             is
             only
             S.
             
             Peter's
             Successours
             ,
             or
             the
             Pope
             ,
             who
             is
             infallible
             ,
             and
             others
             only
             so
             far
             as
             they
             depend
             upon
             him
             and
             cleave
             to
             him
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Then
             this
             Text
             is
             not
             for
             your
             turn
             ;
             for
             if
             it
             do
             extend
             to
             the
             Apostles
             Successors
             ,
             it
             extends
             either
             to
             all
             or
             none
             ;
             for
             sure
             I
             am
             ,
             this
             Text
             makes
             no
             difference
             :
             Besides
             ,
             how
             do
             you
             prove
             that
             these
             words
             of
             the
             Spirits
             leading
             into
             all
             
             truth
             ,
             if
             they
             do
             reach
             further
             than
             the
             Apostles
             ,
             do
             imply
             Infallibility
             .
             Then
             all
             Believers
             are
             infallible
             ,
             for
             they
             are
             all
             led
             by
             the
             Spirit
             ,
             Rom.
             8.
             14.
             
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             True
             ,
             but
             here
             they
             are
             said
             to
             be
             led
             into
             all
             truth
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             You
             know
             the
             words
             all
             and
             every
             are
             often
             taken
             in
             a
             limited
             sense
             ,
             as
             when
             the
             Gospel
             is
             to
             be
             preached
             to
             every
             creature
             ,
             Mark
             16.
             15.
             
             And
             you
             may
             as
             well
             conclude
             the
             omnisciency
             of
             all
             Believers
             ,
             from
             1
             
               Iohn
               2.
               20.
               
               You
               know
               all
               things
            
             ;
             and
             
               v.
               27.
               
               The
               anointing
               teacheth
               you
               all
               things
               ,
            
             as
             the
             Infallibility
             of
             your
             Popes
             or
             Councils
             from
             that
             phrase
             :
             and
             one
             Answer
             serves
             for
             both
             places
             ,
             viz.
             that
             they
             speak
             of
             all
             necessary
             truths
             .
             But
             why
             do
             I
             hear
             nothing
             of
             
               Luke
               22.
               31.
               
               Simon
               ,
               Simon
               ,
               Satan
               hath
               desired
               to
               winnow
               you
               ,
               but
               I
               have
               prayed
               that
               thy
               faith
               fail
               not
               .
            
             I
             have
             heard
             that
             Bellarmine
             useth
             this
             Argnment
             ,
             but
             I
             confess
             ,
             I
             thought
             they
             abused
             him
             .
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             It
             is
             true
             ,
             he
             doth
             use
             it
             ,
             and
             it
             is
             a
             solid
             one
             ,
             though
             you
             scorn
             it
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             How
             do
             you
             know
             that
             it
             is
             meant
             of
             all
             
             Peter's
             Successours
             ?
             for
             there
             is
             not
             one
             word
             of
             them
             here
             .
             But
             if
             I
             grant
             these
             were
             meant
             ,
             Do
             you
             then
             all
             believe
             that
             
             Peter's
             Successours
             are
             infallible
             ?
          
        
         
           
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             I
             did
             before
             acknowledge
             that
             we
             are
             divided
             in
             that
             point
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Can
             you
             think
             to
             convince
             me
             with
             that
             argument
             that
             does
             not
             satisfie
             your
             own
             Brethren
             ?
             Moreover
             ,
             tell
             me
             ,
             I
             pray
             you
             ,
             What
             was
             the
             Faith
             of
             Peter
             which
             was
             struck
             at
             by
             the
             Devil
             ,
             and
             pray'd
             for
             by
             Christ
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             The
             event
             shews
             that
             ;
             for
             the
             Devil
             tempted
             him
             ,
             and
             prevailed
             with
             him
             to
             deny
             his
             Master
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Did
             Peter
             deny
             Christ
             doctrinally
             ,
             and
             fall
             into
             the
             damnable
             error
             of
             disbelieving
             Christ
             to
             be
             the
             Messias
             ,
             or
             was
             it
             only
             an
             error
             or
             miscarriage
             of
             his
             tongue
             ,
             which
             spoke
             against
             his
             Conscience
             and
             Judgment
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             Far
             be
             it
             from
             me
             ,
             to
             say
             that
             Peter
             did
             so
             damnably
             erre
             in
             his
             judgment
             ,
             I
             know
             no
             Catholick
             who
             saith
             so
             ;
             all
             do
             all
             agree
             that
             it
             was
             only
             an
             error
             of
             his
             tongue
             and
             conversation
             ,
             and
             practical
             denial
             of
             Christ.
             
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Very
             well
             :
             Hence
             then
             I
             gather
             ,
             that
             Christ
             prayed
             for
             his
             practical
             ,
             not
             for
             his
             doctrinal
             Faith
             ,
             and
             that
             his
             grace
             of
             faith
             might
             not
             be
             utterly
             lost
             by
             his
             fall
             :
             so
             that
             ,
             if
             this
             Text
             and
             Prayer
             reach
             to
             your
             Popes
             ,
             it
             should
             rather
             secure
             them
             from
             damnable
             Apostacies
             in
             practice
             (
             which
             you
             confess
             many
             of
             them
             
             fell
             into
             and
             died
             in
             )
             then
             from
             Heresies
             (
             of
             which
             this
             Text
             speaks
             not
             at
             all
             .
             )
             But
             have
             you
             no
             other
             Arguments
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             Yes
             ,
             there
             is
             one
             more
             ,
             which
             were
             sufficient
             if
             there
             were
             no
             other
             ,
             and
             that
             is
             from
             Gods
             Providence
             ;
             It
             is
             unbecoming
             the
             wisdom
             of
             God
             to
             leave
             his
             Church
             without
             a
             guide
             ,
             or
             infallible
             Iudge
             ,
             by
             which
             means
             there
             would
             be
             no
             end
             of
             Controversies
             :
             and
             since
             you
             do
             not
             pretend
             to
             have
             any
             such
             in
             your
             Church
             ,
             it
             must
             be
             in
             ours
             ,
             or
             else
             there
             is
             none
             in
             the
             world
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             I
             had
             thought
             you
             would
             have
             only
             taught
             me
             ,
             but
             now
             it
             seems
             you
             will
             teach
             God
             how
             to
             govern
             the
             World.
             It
             should
             seem
             to
             me
             ,
             that
             God
             was
             not
             of
             your
             mind
             ;
             he
             did
             not
             think
             fit
             to
             end
             all
             Controversies
             ,
             but
             to
             permit
             that
             
               there
               should
               be
               Heresies
            
             ,
             1
             Cor.
             11.
             19.
             
             And
             if
             God
             in
             his
             wisdom
             thought
             an
             Infallible
             Judge
             necessary
             ,
             certainly
             that
             same
             Wisdom
             would
             have
             named
             the
             place
             ,
             person
             ,
             or
             persons
             ,
             where
             people
             should
             have
             found
             this
             Infallibility
             .
             Was
             it
             ever
             known
             ,
             since
             the
             beginning
             of
             the
             world
             ,
             that
             any
             Prince
             constituted
             Judges
             in
             his
             Kingdom
             ,
             not
             so
             much
             as
             giving
             notice
             to
             his
             people
             who
             they
             were
             ,
             to
             whom
             they
             must
             resort
             for
             Justice
             ?
             this
             God
             hath
             not
             done
             ;
             for
             you
             do
             not
             pretend
             
             a
             particular
             place
             which
             settles
             this
             infallible
             Judge
             at
             Rome
             ,
             but
             only
             some
             general
             and
             fallacious
             Arguments
             ,
             as
             I
             have
             proved
             ;
             and
             besides
             ,
             it
             is
             so
             far
             from
             being
             evident
             ,
             that
             your selves
             are
             not
             agreed
             about
             it
             :
             but
             some
             seek
             for
             this
             infallible
             judgement
             in
             the
             Pope
             ,
             others
             in
             a
             General
             Council
             ;
             and
             these
             do
             as
             fiercely
             dispute
             one
             against
             another
             in
             this
             point
             ,
             as
             you
             do
             against
             us
             in
             many
             others
             ;
             and
             therefore
             it
             is
             much
             more
             rational
             for
             me
             to
             conclude
             thus
             ;
             God
             hath
             not
             nominated
             and
             appointed
             such
             an
             infallible
             Judge
             in
             the
             Church
             ;
             therefore
             there
             is
             none
             ,
             and
             it
             is
             not
             fit
             there
             should
             be
             one
             ,
             than
             sawcily
             to
             undertake
             to
             be
             the
             Counsellor
             of
             the
             Almighty
             ,
             and
             to
             tell
             him
             what
             is
             fit
             to
             be
             done
             ,
             and
             then
             conclude
             that
             it
             is
             done
             .
             In
             short
             ,
             For
             Controversies
             about
             Fundamental
             and
             necessary
             things
             ,
             God
             hath
             provided
             sufficient
             meanes
             for
             the
             ending
             of
             them
             ,
             having
             clearly
             enough
             determined
             them
             in
             his
             Word
             for
             the
             satisfaction
             of
             all
             that
             are
             diligent
             and
             humble
             ,
             and
             teachable
             :
             And
             for
             Controversies
             of
             lesser
             moment
             there
             is
             no
             necessity
             of
             having
             them
             ended
             ,
             nor
             would
             they
             be
             much
             prejudicial
             to
             the
             peace
             of
             the
             world
             and
             the
             Church
             if
             men
             would
             learn
             to
             give
             any
             allowance
             
             for
             the
             infirmities
             of
             humane
             nature
             ,
             and
             exercise
             that
             great
             and
             necessary
             duty
             of
             Charity
             and
             mutual
             forbearance
             .
             But
             since
             this
             is
             all
             you
             can
             say
             upon
             this
             particular
             ,
             I
             pray
             you
             ,
             let
             me
             hear
             what
             other
             Arguments
             you
             have
             against
             our
             Church
             and
             Doctrine
             .
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             Then
             another
             Argument
             against
             your
             Church
             and
             way
             ,
             is
             taken
             from
             the
             Novelty
             of
             it
             ;
             As
             for
             our
             Religion
             ,
             it
             hath
             had
             possession
             in
             the
             world
             ever
             since
             the
             Apostles
             days
             ;
             but
             you
             are
             of
             Yesterday
             ,
             and
             know
             nothing
             ;
             your
             Religion
             is
             an
             upstart
             Religion
             ,
             never
             heard
             of
             in
             the
             world
             till
             Luthers
             days
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             First
             ,
             let
             me
             ask
             you
             this
             Question
             ,
             If
             you
             had
             lived
             in
             the
             days
             of
             Christ
             ,
             or
             of
             the
             Apostles
             ,
             or
             of
             the
             Primitive
             Fathers
             ,
             what
             would
             you
             have
             Answered
             for
             your self
             ?
             you
             know
             better
             than
             I
             ,
             that
             this
             was
             the
             very
             Argument
             ,
             which
             Iews
             and
             Heathens
             urged
             against
             the
             Christians
             then
             ;
             they
             charged
             Christ
             with
             not
             
               walking
               after
               the
               Traditions
               of
               the
               Elders
               ,
            
             Matth.
             7.
             5.
             
             And
             the
             Athenians
             said
             to
             
               Paul
               ,
               May
               we
               know
               what
               this
               new
               Doctrine
               is
               ?
            
             Act.
             17.
             19.
             
             And
             the
             Pharisees
             had
             Antiquity
             on
             their
             side
             ,
             being
             
               zealous
               for
               the
               Traditions
               of
               the
               Fathers
               ,
            
             Gal.
             1.
             14.
             
             And
             though
             it
             be
             true
             ,
             
             that
             the
             Apostles
             had
             the
             first
             Antiquity
             for
             them
             ,
             delivering
             nothing
             but
             what
             for
             substance
             
               was
               in
               Moses
               and
               the
               Prophets
               ,
            
             Act.
             26.
             22.
             
             (
             which
             also
             is
             our
             case
             )
             yet
             the
             
               immediate
               and
               latter
               antiquity
            
             was
             against
             them
             ,
             and
             for
             divers
             ages
             together
             these
             Doctrines
             had
             been
             in
             great
             measure
             obscured
             and
             unknown
             .
             What
             then
             would
             you
             have
             Answered
             to
             a
             Iew
             or
             a
             Heathen
             ,
             objecting
             this
             Novelty
             to
             you
             ?
             Learn
             from
             Christ
             ,
             who
             when
             the
             Iews
             pleaded
             for
             the
             continuance
             of
             their
             old
             practice
             in
             the
             matter
             of
             Divorces
             ;
             he
             accounted
             it
             sufficient
             confutation
             ,
             that
             
               from
               the
               beginning
               it
               was
               not
               so
               ,
            
             Mat.
             19.
             7.
             
             And
             to
             all
             the
             pretences
             of
             the
             Pharisees
             from
             antiquity
             ,
             he
             opposeth
             this
             one
             thing
             ,
             
               Search
               the
               Scriptures
            
             ,
             John
             5.
             39.
             
             So
             you
             dispute
             against
             us
             with
             the
             arguments
             which
             the
             Pharisees
             used
             against
             Christ
             ,
             and
             we
             answer
             you
             as
             He
             answered
             them
             :
             Besides
             let
             me
             ask
             you
             this
             Question
             ,
             If
             I
             could
             clearly
             prove
             to
             you
             all
             the
             points
             of
             our
             Faith
             ,
             and
             disprove
             the
             points
             of
             yours
             ,
             from
             the
             Holy
             Scriptures
             ,
             tell
             me
             ,
             Would
             you
             then
             acknowledge
             the
             truth
             of
             the
             Protestant
             Religion
             ,
             notwithstanding
             all
             this
             pretended
             Novelty
             ?
          
        
         
           
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             Yes
             certainly
             ,
             for
             we
             all
             confess
             the
             truth
             of
             all
             that
             is
             contained
             in
             the
             holy
             Scriptures
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Hence
             then
             it
             follows
             undeniably
             ,
             that
             the
             main
             thing
             that
             you
             and
             I
             must
             look
             to
             in
             our
             faith
             is
             ,
             that
             it
             be
             agreeable
             to
             the
             holy
             Scriptures
             ;
             and
             if
             ours
             be
             so
             ,
             (
             as
             I
             am
             fully
             perswaded
             it
             is
             )
             and
             yours
             the
             contrary
             ,
             neither
             antiquity
             is
             any
             argument
             for
             you
             ,
             nor
             Novelty
             against
             us
             .
             Besides
             ,
             when
             you
             charge
             our
             Church
             with
             Novelty
             ,
             I
             suppose
             you
             mean
             that
             our
             Doctrines
             are
             new
             .
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             I
             do
             so
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Then
             you
             cannot
             justly
             charge
             us
             with
             Novelty
             ;
             for
             ,
          
           
             1.
             
             You
             confess
             the
             Antiquity
             and
             verity
             of
             most
             of
             our
             Fundamental
             Doctrines
             ,
             and
             your selves
             do
             approve
             them
             ,
             only
             you
             make
             additions
             of
             your
             own
             to
             them
             ;
             you
             own
             all
             the
             Scriptures
             in
             our
             Bible
             ,
             only
             you
             add
             the
             Apocrypha
             :
             you
             acknowledge
             Scripture
             the
             rule
             of
             Faith
             ,
             only
             you
             add
             Tradition
             :
             we
             believe
             all
             the
             Articles
             of
             the
             Apostles
             Creed
             (
             the
             *
             belief
             whereof
             the
             Antient
             Fathers
             thought
             sufficient
             to
             Salvation
             )
             .
             And
             the
             Doctrine
             of
             the
             four
             first
             General
             Councils
             ,
             
             as
             you
             do
             also
             :
             You
             own
             our
             Doctrine
             of
             Christs
             satisfaction
             and
             Justification
             by
             Christ
             and
             Faith
             ,
             only
             you
             add
             your
             own
             works
             and
             satisfaction
             :
             Our
             two
             Sacraments
             you
             approve
             ,
             only
             you
             add
             five
             more
             :
             Our
             Doctrine
             of
             the
             two
             states
             of
             Men
             in
             heaven
             and
             Hell
             you
             own
             ,
             only
             you
             add
             Purgatory
             :
             You
             own
             Christ
             for
             your
             Mediatour
             and
             Prayers
             to
             God
             through
             him
             ,
             only
             you
             add
             other
             Mediatours
             ;
             Our
             worship
             of
             God
             you
             own
             ,
             only
             you
             add
             Images
             .
             These
             are
             the
             principal
             points
             of
             our
             Religion
             ,
             and
             dare
             you
             now
             say
             that
             our
             Doctrines
             are
             new
             ?
          
           
             2.
             
             Many
             of
             your
             ablest
             Doctors
             confess
             ,
             that
             divers
             of
             the
             peculiar
             Doctrines
             of
             your
             Church
             are
             new
             and
             unknown
             to
             the
             Antient
             Fathers
             ;
             and
             it
             is
             most
             evident
             and
             undeniable
             concerning
             Indulgences
             ,
             Purgatory
             ,
             Communion
             in
             one
             kind
             ,
             Worship
             in
             a
             strange
             tongue
             ,
             the
             receiving
             some
             of
             your
             Apocryphal
             books
             ,
             Transubstantiation
             (
             especially
             as
             an
             Article
             of
             Faith
             )
             the
             Popes
             Infallibility
             ,
             Worship
             of
             Images
             ,
             denying
             of
             the
             reading
             of
             Scriptures
             to
             the
             people
             and
             others
             .
             And
             will
             you
             yet
             brag
             of
             the
             Antiquity
             of
             your
             Religion
             ?
          
           
           
             3.
             
             These
             Doctrines
             wherein
             we
             differ
             from
             you
             have
             been
             not
             only
             proved
             from
             Scripture
             ,
             but
             from
             the
             plain
             testimony
             of
             Antient
             Fathers
             ,
             as
             I
             think
             none
             can
             doubt
             that
             ,
             (
             laying
             aside
             prejudices
             ,
             )
             shall
             read
             what
             our
             Iewel
             ,
             and
             Morton
             ,
             and
             Field
             ,
             and
             others
             have
             written
             ;
             How
             then
             can
             you
             have
             the
             confidence
             to
             charge
             us
             with
             Novelty
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             Your
             Church
             is
             new
             in
             this
             respect
             ,
             that
             although
             some
             others
             before
             you
             might
             own
             some
             of
             your
             Doctrines
             ,
             there
             was
             no
             Church
             that
             owned
             all
             your
             Doctrines
             ,
             both
             positive
             and
             negative
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             That
             is
             not
             necessary
             .
             I
             hope
             every
             alteration
             of
             Doctrines
             of
             less
             moment
             ,
             doth
             not
             make
             the
             Church
             new
             ;
             if
             it
             doth
             ,
             it
             is
             most
             certain
             ,
             that
             your
             Church
             is
             new
             also
             ;
             for
             nothing
             can
             be
             more
             plain
             ,
             than
             that
             the
             Catholick
             Church
             ,
             nay
             even
             your
             own
             Church
             of
             Rome
             ,
             did
             not
             antiently
             ,
             in
             former
             ages
             hold
             all
             these
             Doctrines
             which
             now
             she
             owns
             (
             as
             your
             own
             greatest
             Authors
             confess
             )
             this
             is
             sufficient
             ,
             that
             the
             Church
             of
             God
             ,
             in
             most
             former
             ages
             ,
             hath
             owned
             all
             our
             Substantial
             Doctrines
             .
             But
             what
             have
             you
             further
             to
             say
             ?
          
        
         
           
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             It
             is
             sufficient
             against
             you
             ,
             that
             your
             Church
             is
             Schismatical
             ,
             and
             you
             are
             all
             guilty
             of
             Schism
             in
             departing
             from
             the
             true
             Catholick
             Church
             ,
             which
             is
             but
             one
             ,
             and
             that
             is
             the
             Roman
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             I
             desire
             to
             know
             of
             you
             ,
             Whether
             in
             no
             case
             a
             man
             may
             separate
             from
             the
             Church
             whereof
             he
             was
             a
             member
             without
             Schism
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             Yes
             certainly
             ,
             if
             there
             be
             sufficient
             cause
             for
             it
             ,
             for
             the
             Apostles
             did
             separate
             from
             the
             Church
             of
             the
             Jews
             after
             Christs
             death
             ,
             and
             the
             Orthodox
             separated
             from
             the
             Arrian
             Churches
             ,
             and
             all
             Communion
             with
             them
             ,
             yet
             none
             ever
             charged
             them
             with
             Schism
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Since
             you
             mention
             that
             instance
             ,
             I
             pray
             you
             tell
             me
             ,
             Why
             they
             separated
             from
             the
             Arrians
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             Because
             they
             held
             this
             Heresie
             ,
             That
             Christ
             was
             a
             Creature
             ,
             and
             not
             the
             true
             God.
             
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Very
             well
             :
             hence
             then
             I
             conclude
             ,
             That
             if
             your
             Church
             do
             hold
             any
             Heresie
             ,
             and
             require
             all
             her
             members
             to
             own
             it
             too
             ,
             it
             is
             no
             Schism
             for
             us
             to
             separate
             from
             you
             .
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             That
             must
             needs
             be
             granted
             ,
             but
             this
             is
             but
             a
             slander
             of
             yours
             ,
             for
             our
             Church
             holds
             no
             such
             Heresies
             .
          
        
         
           
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Your
             Church
             doth
             not
             hold
             one
             ,
             but
             many
             dangerous
             Errours
             and
             Heresies
             ,
             as
             I
             do
             not
             doubt
             to
             manifest
             e're
             you
             and
             I
             part
             :
             And
             if
             you
             please
             ,
             we
             will
             leave
             the
             present
             Argumeut
             to
             this
             issue
             ,
             if
             I
             do
             not
             prove
             your
             Church
             guilty
             of
             Heresie
             ,
             and
             the
             imposition
             of
             it
             too
             ,
             I
             am
             content
             you
             should
             charge
             us
             with
             Schism
             ;
             if
             I
             do
             ,
             you
             shall
             mention
             it
             no
             more
             .
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             You
             speak
             reason
             ,
             let
             it
             rest
             there
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Besides
             ,
             methinks
             ,
             you
             deal
             barbarously
             with
             us
             ,
             you
             drive
             us
             out
             from
             you
             by
             your
             tyranny
             ,
             and
             then
             you
             blame
             us
             for
             departing
             ;
             as
             if
             Sarah
             had
             call'd
             Hagar
             a
             Schismatick
             for
             going
             out
             of
             
             Abraham's
             family
             ,
             from
             which
             she
             forced
             her
             :
             Tell
             me
             ,
             I
             pray
             you
             ,
             if
             the
             case
             be
             so
             that
             I
             must
             depart
             from
             the
             Roman
             Church
             ,
             or
             from
             God
             ,
             What
             must
             I
             do
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             The
             case
             is
             plain
             ,
             you
             must
             rather
             depart
             from
             that
             Church
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             This
             is
             the
             case
             ,
             If
             I
             do
             not
             depart
             from
             your
             Church
             ,
             she
             will
             force
             me
             to
             live
             in
             many
             mortal
             sins
             .
             I
             must
             believe
             a
             hundred
             lies
             ,
             I
             must
             worship
             the
             Cross
             and
             Relicks
             ,
             and
             Images
             ,
             which
             God
             commands
             me
             under
             pain
             of
             his
             highest
             displeasure
             not
             to
             worship
             .
             I
             
             must
             worship
             the
             Sacrament
             with
             divine
             worship
             ,
             which
             I
             am
             assured
             is
             no
             other
             for
             substance
             than
             bread
             ;
             for
             your
             Church
             is
             not
             content
             to
             hold
             these
             opinions
             ,
             but
             she
             enjoyns
             these
             practices
             to
             all
             her
             members
             .
             And
             if
             things
             be
             thus
             ,
             I
             think
             you
             will
             not
             have
             the
             confidence
             ,
             any
             more
             to
             charge
             us
             with
             Schism
             for
             obeying
             the
             command
             of
             God
             to
             come
             out
             of
             Babylon
             ,
             since
             you
             force
             all
             your
             members
             to
             partake
             with
             you
             in
             your
             sins
             ,
             Rev.
             18.
             4.
             
             Besides
             all
             this
             ,
             let
             me
             ask
             you
             upon
             what
             account
             you
             charge
             us
             with
             Schism
             .
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             For
             departing
             from
             the
             Catholick
             Church
             ,
             and
             from
             your
             Mother
             Church
             of
             Rome
             ,
             and
             from
             the
             Pope
             ,
             whose
             Subjects
             once
             you
             were
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             If
             then
             I
             can
             prove
             that
             we
             are
             not
             departed
             from
             the
             Catholick
             Church
             nor
             from
             our
             Mother
             Church
             ,
             nor
             from
             any
             of
             that
             subjection
             we
             owe
             to
             the
             Pope
             ,
             I
             hope
             you
             will
             acquit
             us
             from
             Schism
             .
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             That
             I
             cannot
             deny
             ,
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Then
             this
             danger
             is
             over
             :
             For
             1.
             
             We
             never
             did
             depart
             from
             the
             Catholick
             Church
             ,
             which
             is
             (
             not
             
               your
               particular
            
             Roman
             Church
             ,
             as
             you
             most
             ridiculously
             
             call
             it
             ,
             but
             )
             
               the
               whole
               multitude
               of
               Believers
               and
               Christians
               in
               the
               world
               :
            
             Nay
             ,
             the
             truth
             is
             ,
             you
             are
             the
             Schismaticks
             in
             renouncing
             all
             Communion
             with
             all
             the
             Christian
             Churches
             in
             the
             world
             ,
             except
             your
             own
             ,
             (
             which
             are
             equal
             to
             yours
             in
             number
             ;
             and
             many
             of
             them
             far
             superiour
             in
             true
             piety
             .
             )
             Next
             ,
             we
             do
             not
             own
             you
             for
             our
             Mother
             :
             Ierusalem
             which
             is
             above
             ,
             (
             not
             Babylon
             that
             is
             beneath
             )
             is
             the
             Mother
             of
             us
             all
             .
             If
             we
             grant
             now
             you
             are
             a
             true
             Church
             ,
             yet
             you
             are
             but
             a
             sister
             Church
             .
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             You
             forget
             that
             you
             received
             the
             Gospel
             from
             our
             hands
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Suppose
             we
             did
             really
             so
             ;
             Doth
             that
             give
             you
             authority
             over
             us
             ?
             If
             it
             did
             ,
             not
             Rome
             ,
             but
             Ierusalem
             should
             be
             the
             Mother
             Church
             ,
             from
             whom
             you
             also
             received
             the
             Gospel
             :
             This
             you
             deny
             ,
             which
             shews
             that
             you
             do
             not
             believe
             your
             own
             Argument
             to
             be
             good
             .
             And
             for
             the
             Popes
             Universal
             and
             Infallible
             Authority
             which
             he
             pretends
             over
             all
             Christians
             ,
             I
             have
             diligently
             read
             your
             Arguments
             for
             it
             ;
             and
             I
             freely
             profess
             to
             you
             ,
             I
             find
             your
             pretences
             both
             from
             Scripture
             and
             Fathers
             so
             weak
             and
             frivolous
             ,
             that
             I
             durst
             commend
             it
             to
             any
             understanding
             and
             disinterested
             person
             as
             a
             most
             likely
             means
             
             to
             convince
             him
             of
             the
             vanity
             and
             falseness
             of
             that
             Doctrine
             ;
             that
             he
             would
             peruse
             any
             of
             your
             best
             Authors
             ,
             and
             the
             very
             sight
             of
             the
             weakness
             and
             impertinency
             of
             your
             Arguments
             would
             abundantly
             satisfie
             him
             of
             the
             badness
             of
             your
             cause
             .
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             You
             have
             no
             Ministers
             ,
             because
             you
             have
             no
             uninterrupted
             succession
             from
             the
             Apostles
             ,
             as
             we
             have
             ,
             and
             therefore
             you
             have
             on
             Church
             ,
             and
             therefore
             no
             Salvation
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             I
             observe
             you
             take
             the
             same
             course
             that
             the
             Adversaries
             of
             the
             Gospel
             ever
             did
             ,
             who
             when
             they
             could
             not
             reprove
             the
             Doctrine
             of
             Christ
             and
             his
             Apostles
             ,
             they
             quarrelled
             with
             them
             for
             want
             of
             a
             Calling
             ,
             as
             you
             may
             see
             ,
             
               Iohn
               .
               1.
               25.
               
               Mat.
               21.
               23.
               
               Act.
            
             4.
             7.
             
             But
             the
             good
             Christians
             
               of
               that
               time
            
             took
             another
             course
             ,
             and
             examined
             not
             so
             much
             the
             Call
             of
             the
             persons
             ,
             as
             the
             truth
             of
             the
             Doctrine
             ,
             Act.
             8.
             17.
             
             It
             seems
             to
             me
             a
             secret
             confession
             of
             your
             guilt
             ,
             and
             the
             Error
             of
             your
             Doctrine
             ,
             that
             you
             are
             so
             careful
             to
             turn
             off
             mens
             eyes
             from
             that
             to
             a
             far
             meaner
             point
             .
             But
             tell
             me
             ,
             Do
             you
             believe
             that
             such
             an
             uninterrupted
             Succession
             of
             Ministers
             from
             the
             Apostles
             ,
             is
             absolutely
             necessary
             to
             the
             being
             of
             a
             Church
             ?
          
        
         
           
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             Yes
             verily
             ,
             or
             else
             this
             Argument
             signifies
             nothing
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             How
             then
             can
             you
             convince
             me
             or
             any
             other
             Christian
             ,
             that
             you
             have
             had
             such
             an
             uninterrupted
             Succession
             in
             your
             Church
             ?
             You
             must
             produce
             ,
             and
             ,
             it
             seems
             ,
             I
             must
             read
             all
             those
             many
             hundreds
             of
             great
             Volumes
             wherein
             such
             passages
             are
             mentioned
             .
             In
             those
             you
             must
             shew
             me
             a
             perfect
             catalogue
             of
             the
             several
             names
             of
             those
             Popes
             ,
             and
             others
             who
             have
             without
             interruption
             succeeded
             one
             another
             ever
             since
             the
             Apostles
             days
             ,
             and
             this
             catalogue
             must
             be
             such
             that
             all
             your
             Authors
             are
             agreed
             in
             ,
             (
             whereas
             I
             am
             told
             for
             certain
             ,
             they
             differ
             very
             much
             in
             their
             reports
             therein
             )
             and
             are
             not
             so
             much
             as
             agreed
             among
             themselves
             who
             was
             
             Peter's
             next
             Successor
             ,
             (
             whether
             Linus
             or
             Clemens
             ,
             or
             some
             other
             person
             they
             know
             not
             who
             ,
             )
             and
             those
             Historians
             that
             report
             these
             things
             ,
             you
             must
             assure
             me
             that
             they
             were
             infallible
             (
             which
             you
             do
             not
             pretend
             they
             were
             )
             or
             else
             they
             might
             mistake
             the
             things
             themselves
             ,
             and
             mis-report
             them
             to
             me
             ;
             and
             I
             have
             heard
             and
             read
             that
             there
             have
             been
             divers
             interruptions
             and
             Schisms
             even
             in
             your
             Church
             ,
             one
             Pope
             set
             up
             against
             another
             ,
             and
             each
             pretending
             to
             be
             the
             true
             Pope
             ,
             and
             disannulling
             
             all
             the
             Acts
             of
             the
             other
             ,
             and
             that
             the
             Christian
             people
             were
             then
             wofully
             divided
             ,
             some
             cleaving
             to
             one
             ,
             others
             to
             another
             ;
             but
             it
             may
             be
             this
             was
             a
             mistake
             of
             our
             Ministers
             ;
             therefore
             tell
             me
             ,
             Was
             this
             true
             or
             no
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             I
             confess
             it
             was
             true
             ,
             after
             the
             year
             of
             Christ
             1300.
             there
             were
             several
             Popes
             at
             the
             same
             time
             ,
             one
             at
             Rome
             ,
             another
             at
             Avignon
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             And
             how
             long
             did
             this
             difference
             last
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             For
             about
             50.
             years
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             
               And
               is
               it
               true
               that
               I
               have
               heard
               ,
               that
               your
               great
            
             Baronius
             
               reports
               that
            
             for
             150
             years
             together
             the
             Popes
             were
             rather
             Apostates
             than
             Apostolicks
             ,
             and
             that
             they
             were
             thrust
             into
             the
             Papal
             Chair
             by
             the
             power
             of
             Harlots
             ,
             and
             the
             violences
             of
             the
             Princes
             of
             Tuscany
             .
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             I
             must
             be
             true
             to
             you
             ,
             Baronius
             doth
             say
             so
             at
             the
             year
             897.
             
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Then
             never
             hence
             forward
             be
             so
             impudent
             to
             pretend
             to
             such
             a
             lawful
             ,
             clear
             and
             uninterrupted
             succession
             ;
             but
             blush
             that
             ever
             you
             mentioned
             it
             .
             But
             besides
             ,
             I
             have
             heard
             that
             divers
             of
             our
             first
             reformed
             and
             reforming
             Ministers
             too
             ,
             were
             such
             as
             had
             received
             Ordination
             from
             and
             in
             the
             Church
             of
             Rome
             ,
             and
             from
             your
             Bishiops
             .
             Is
             it
             true
             ,
             or
             is
             it
             not
             ?
          
        
         
           
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             I
             will
             be
             ingenuous
             ,
             Our
             Doctors
             confess
             it
             ;
             but
             if
             your
             Ministers
             ,
             or
             some
             of
             them
             had
             a
             call
             from
             our
             Church
             ,
             yet
             they
             were
             only
             called
             to
             Preach
             ,
             not
             to
             overturn
             the
             world
             (
             as
             they
             did
             )
             and
             to
             undertake
             the
             Reformation
             of
             the
             whole
             Church
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             You
             have
             said
             enough
             :
             if
             they
             were
             called
             to
             the
             Ministry
             ,
             their
             Work
             and
             Office
             was
             to
             bear
             witness
             to
             the
             Truth
             ;
             and
             therefore
             to
             undeceive
             the
             world
             in
             those
             many
             Errors
             and
             Heresies
             ,
             which
             you
             had
             brought
             into
             the
             Church
             :
             and
             Ministers
             are
             set
             for
             the
             defence
             of
             the
             Gospel
             ;
             they
             were
             therefore
             bound
             by
             their
             Office
             to
             edeavour
             the
             Reformation
             of
             the
             Church
             ,
             and
             salvation
             of
             Souls
             :
             and
             as
             in
             a
             great
             Fire
             (
             especially
             where
             the
             publick
             Officers
             neglect
             their
             Duty
             )
             every
             man
             brings
             his
             Bucket
             to
             quench
             it
             ;
             so
             ,
             in
             that
             miserable
             estate
             ,
             into
             which
             you
             had
             brought
             the
             Church
             ,
             (
             when
             the
             Pope
             and
             Bishops
             would
             not
             do
             their
             duty
             )
             it
             was
             the
             duty
             of
             every
             Minister
             to
             endeavour
             ,
             and
             to
             stir
             up
             the
             Kings
             and
             Magistrates
             of
             the
             World
             to
             endeavour
             a
             Reformation
             .
             Surely
             you
             cannot
             pretend
             to
             an
             higher
             priviledge
             than
             St.
             Paul
             ,
             and
             yet
             he
             gives
             all
             Ministers
             and
             Christians
             this
             leave
             and
             charge
             ,
             that
             
               if
               he
               himself
               should
               bring
               any
               other
               doctrine
               
               than
               what
               he
               had
               delivered
               ,
            
             any
             Minister
             (
             though
             happily
             such
             a
             one
             as
             received
             his
             calling
             from
             him
             )
             or
             Christian
             might
             not
             only
             forsake
             him
             ,
             but
             
               judge
               him
               accursed
            
             .
             I
             shall
             only
             adde
             this
             ,
             our
             Ministers
             are
             in
             a
             very
             hard
             case
             .
             I
             have
             discoursed
             with
             Anabaptists
             ,
             who
             have
             reasoned
             against
             our
             Ministers
             as
             no
             Ministers
             ,
             because
             they
             had
             their
             calling
             from
             Rome
             ;
             and
             now
             you
             will
             make
             them
             no
             Ministers
             ,
             because
             they
             had
             no
             Calling
             from
             Rome
             .
             (
             How
             shall
             they
             please
             you
             and
             them
             too
             ?
             )
             But
             what
             have
             you
             further
             to
             say
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             I
             have
             this
             further
             (
             which
             is
             indeed
             unanswerable
             )
             namely
             ,
             the
             horrible
             divisions
             of
             ,
             and
             in
             ,
             your
             Churches
             :
             Here
             is
             Luther
             an
             and
             Calvinist
             ,
             Episcopal
             and
             Presbyterian
             ,
             Independent
             and
             Anabaptist
             ,
             and
             Quaker
             ,
             and
             Socinian
             ,
             and
             Familist
             :
             and
             what
             not
             ?
             so
             that
             a
             man
             that
             would
             turn
             to
             your
             Church
             ,
             knows
             not
             which
             to
             turn
             to
             :
             but
             our
             Church
             is
             one
             and
             entire
             ,
             at
             perfect
             unity
             in
             it self
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             I
             pray
             you
             tell
             me
             in
             the
             first
             place
             ,
             are
             divisions
             a
             certain
             Argument
             to
             prove
             any
             Church
             not
             to
             be
             true
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             I
             cannot
             say
             so
             ;
             for
             it
             is
             plain
             ,
             the
             Iewish
             Church
             in
             Christs
             time
             was
             full
             of
             Divisions
             ;
             there
             were
             Pharisees
             ,
             Sadduces
             ,
             
             Essenes
             ,
             &c.
             
             And
             so
             was
             the
             Church
             of
             Corinth
             in
             St.
             Pauls
             time
             ,
             while
             some
             said
             ,
             
               I
               am
               of
               Paul
            
             ,
             others
             ,
             
               I
               of
               Apollo
            
             ,
             others
             ,
             
               I
               of
               Cephas
            
             ;
             and
             some
             denyed
             Pauls
             Ministry
             and
             Apostleship
             ,
             and
             some
             denyed
             the
             Resurrection
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Very
             well
             ,
             then
             you
             may
             blush
             to
             use
             such
             an
             Argument
             :
             I
             am
             told
             that
             the
             old
             Heathens
             did
             use
             this
             very
             Argument
             against
             the
             Primitive
             Christians
             .
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             It
             is
             true
             ,
             they
             did
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             What
             a
             shame
             is
             it
             that
             you
             are
             forced
             to
             defend
             your
             cause
             with
             such
             weapons
             as
             were
             used
             by
             the
             Pagans
             ,
             and
             wrested
             out
             of
             their
             hands
             by
             the
             Antient
             Fathers
             ?
          
           
             But
             besides
             ,
             you
             talk
             of
             our
             Divisions
             ,
             I
             pray
             you
             let
             me
             ask
             you
             ,
             will
             you
             allow
             me
             to
             father
             all
             the
             opinions
             of
             every
             Papist
             ,
             I
             read
             or
             talk
             with
             ,
             upon
             your
             Church
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             No
             ,
             in
             no
             wise
             ,
             Let
             our
             Church
             speak
             for
             her self
             .
             It
             is
             one
             great
             fault
             of
             your
             Ministers
             ,
             they
             catch
             up
             every
             particular
             Opinion
             of
             any
             Private
             Doctor
             ,
             and
             presently
             charge
             our
             Church
             with
             it
             ;
             though
             it
             be
             such
             as
             she
             hath
             condemned
             :
             whereas
             they
             should
             judge
             of
             our
             Church
             only
             by
             her
             own
             Decrees
             and
             Councils
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Very
             well
             ,
             I
             desire
             only
             the
             same
             
             justice
             from
             you
             ;
             Do
             not
             father
             upon
             our
             Church
             those
             Opinions
             which
             she
             dislikes
             and
             abhors
             :
             Socinians
             ,
             Quakers
             ,
             &c.
             are
             yours
             rather
             than
             ours
             ,
             and
             joyn
             with
             you
             in
             abundance
             of
             your
             Doctrins
             :
             Judge
             of
             our
             Churches
             by
             their
             publick
             Confessions
             ;
             and
             there
             also
             you
             would
             find
             ,
             that
             our
             divisions
             are
             generally
             inconsiderable
             ,
             being
             almost
             all
             about
             a
             Form
             of
             Government
             ,
             or
             oft-times
             ,
             but
             a
             manner
             of
             expression
             ,
             and
             none
             of
             them
             in
             fundamental
             Points
             .
             But
             since
             you
             talk
             of
             Divisions
             ,
             let
             me
             ask
             you
             ,
             are
             all
             the
             Members
             of
             your
             Church
             of
             one
             mind
             ?
             I
             have
             been
             told
             otherwise
             :
             We
             hear
             great
             talk
             every
             day
             of
             the
             difference
             between
             the
             Jansenists
             ,
             and
             the
             Jesuits
             :
             and
             (
             if
             we
             may
             believe
             either
             of
             them
             )
             it
             is
             a
             Fundamental
             difference
             ,
             and
             such
             as
             concerns
             the
             very
             life
             of
             Religion
             .
             I
             will
             not
             trouble
             you
             with
             other
             things
             :
             But
             are
             you
             agreed
             in
             that
             ,
             which
             is
             the
             foundation
             of
             your
             unity
             ,
             I
             mean
             ,
             concerning
             the
             Supream
             Infallible
             Judge
             of
             Controversies
             ?
             I
             remember
             your self
             told
             me
             ,
             that
             some
             of
             you
             thought
             it
             was
             the
             Pope
             ,
             and
             others
             a
             Council
             :
             And
             I
             have
             read
             ,
             that
             Popish
             Nations
             ,
             and
             Universities
             ,
             and
             Doctors
             ,
             are
             all
             together
             divided
             about
             it
             ;
             and
             for
             the
             Pope
             ,
             I
             have
             heard
             
             that
             Bellarmin
             reckons
             up
             the
             several
             opinions
             ,
             and
             amongst
             others
             ,
             that
             the
             Pope
             (
             if
             he
             be
             without
             a
             general
             Council
             )
             
               may
               be
               an
               Heretick
               ,
               and
               teach
               Heresie
               :
               and
               this
            
             (
             saith
             he
             )
             
               is
               the
               opinion
               of
               divers
               Papists
               ,
               and
               is
               determined
               by
               a
               Pope
               himself
               ,
            
             Adrian
             
               the
               6th
               by
               name
               ,
               in
               his
               question
               about
               Confirmation
               :
            
             Is
             this
             true
             ,
             or
             is
             Bellarmin
             bely'd
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             It
             is
             true
             ,
             Bellarmin
             doth
             say
             so
             much
             ,
             *
             and
             moreover
             ,
             that
             
               this
               opinion
               is
               not
               heretical
               ,
               and
               is
               tolerated
               by
               the
               Church
               :
            
             but
             withall
             he
             tells
             you
             ,
             that
             he
             is
             of
             another
             opinion
             ,
             which
             is
             also
             the
             common
             opinion
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             However
             ,
             that
             is
             sufficient
             for
             my
             purpose
             .
             This
             one
             difference
             among
             you
             being
             far
             more
             considerable
             ,
             than
             all
             those
             points
             wherein
             Protestants
             differ
             among
             themselves
             :
             for
             though
             they
             differ
             in
             other
             and
             lesser
             things
             ,
             they
             all
             agree
             in
             this
             great
             means
             of
             Union
             ,
             that
             they
             own
             the
             Holy
             Scriptures
             to
             be
             the
             Iudge
             (
             or
             more
             properly
             the
             Rule
             )
             of
             Controversies
             :
             and
             therefore
             if
             you
             please
             ,
             let
             this
             pass
             ,
             and
             let
             me
             hear
             what
             further
             you
             have
             to
             say
             against
             us
             ,
             or
             for
             your selves
             ?
          
        
         
           
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             This
             further
             I
             say
             ,
             the
             true
             Church
             must
             needs
             remain
             visible
             perpetually
             to
             the
             end
             of
             the
             world
             ,
             such
             our
             Church
             hath
             been
             ,
             whereas
             yours
             was
             invisible
             and
             (
             as
             I
             said
             before
             )
             unheard
             of
             in
             the
             world
             till
             Luthers
             dayes
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             I
             do
             not
             well
             understand
             you
             ;
             Do
             you
             think
             the
             Church
             must
             needs
             be
             visible
             at
             all
             times
             to
             the
             whole
             world
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             I
             cannot
             say
             so
             ,
             for
             she
             was
             not
             always
             visible
             to
             many
             great
             and
             famous
             parts
             of
             the
             world
             ,
             as
             China
             and
             America
             ;
             it
             may
             suffice
             ,
             that
             she
             is
             visible
             in
             some
             Kingdom
             or
             part
             of
             the
             world
             ,
             and
             that
             she
             remains
             so
             in
             all
             ages
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Then
             the
             Church
             may
             remain
             invisible
             to
             the
             greatest
             part
             of
             the
             world
             ,
             and
             so
             your
             argument
             reacheth
             but
             a
             small
             part
             of
             the
             world
             :
             How
             I
             pray
             you
             must
             the
             Church
             be
             always
             visible
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             There
             must
             be
             in
             all
             ages
             ,
             in
             some
             eminent
             place
             ,
             a
             great
             company
             of
             Christians
             visibly
             united
             together
             ,
             in
             the
             worship
             of
             God
             in
             one
             body
             and
             Congregation
             ,
             and
             governed
             by
             their
             successive
             Pastors
             under
             the
             Pope
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Very
             well
             :
             now
             I
             know
             your
             mind
             :
             and
             first
             I
             deny
             ,
             that
             it
             is
             necessary
             
             for
             the
             true
             Church
             to
             be
             so
             visible
             in
             all
             ages
             :
             Do
             you
             prove
             it
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             That
             I
             shall
             easily
             prove
             ,
             from
             those
             many
             and
             glorious
             promises
             made
             to
             the
             Church
             ;
             the
             Church
             is
             called
             a
             
               great
               Mountain
            
             ,
             and
             said
             to
             be
             
               exalted
               above
               other
               mountains
            
             ,
             Isa.
             2.
             
             She
             is
             
               a
               City
               set
               upon
               a
               hill
               that
               cannot
               be
               hid
               ,
            
             Mat.
             5.
             
             Christ
             hath
             promised
             
               to
               be
               with
               her
               to
               the
               end
               of
               the
               world
               ,
            
             Mat.
             28.
             
             
               The
               gates
               of
               Hell
               shall
               not
               prevail
               against
               her
               ;
               Christs
               Kingdom
               ,
               is
               an
               everlasting
               Kingdom
               ,
            
             Psal.
             88.
             
             Dan.
             2.
             
             A
             few
             invisible
             and
             dispersed
             Christians
             ,
             cannot
             make
             a
             Kingdom
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Your
             proofs
             are
             impertinent
             ,
             Isa.
             2.
             doth
             prove
             that
             the
             Church
             under
             the
             New
             Testament
             should
             be
             glorious
             (
             that
             is
             spiritually
             )
             and
             prevalent
             :
             so
             it
             was
             (
             and
             we
             trust
             will
             be
             )
             but
             he
             saith
             not
             ,
             the
             Church
             should
             always
             continue
             in
             that
             condition
             (
             which
             is
             the
             point
             that
             you
             should
             prove
             )
             Mat.
             5.
             
             If
             it
             speak
             of
             the
             Church
             ,
             Christ
             only
             tells
             us
             what
             the
             Church
             then
             was
             ,
             not
             that
             it
             should
             always
             remain
             such
             ;
             besides
             he
             speaks
             of
             their
             duty
             ,
             not
             their
             condition
             :
             and
             Mat.
             28.
             proves
             that
             Christ
             will
             be
             with
             his
             Church
             ,
             but
             not
             so
             as
             that
             it
             shall
             
             always
             be
             illustrious
             and
             united
             in
             a
             great
             body
             :
             this
             ,
             neither
             that
             ,
             nor
             any
             of
             your
             other
             Texts
             ,
             prove
             ,
             nor
             can
             you
             .
             But
             suppose
             that
             Christ
             had
             made
             such
             a
             promise
             that
             his
             Church
             should
             be
             visible
             in
             all
             Ages
             in
             a
             considerable
             body
             ;
             How
             do
             you
             prove
             that
             our
             Church
             hath
             not
             been
             so
             visible
             in
             all
             ages
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             If
             you
             affirm
             that
             it
             hath
             been
             visible
             in
             all
             Ages
             ,
             you
             are
             bound
             to
             produce
             a
             Catalogue
             of
             your
             Churches
             in
             all
             successive
             Ages
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             That
             is
             not
             necessary
             neither
             :
             If
             I
             did
             positively
             affirm
             that
             our
             Church
             had
             been
             visible
             in
             such
             manner
             in
             all
             Ages
             ,
             then
             I
             confess
             I
             am
             bound
             to
             prove
             it
             .
             But
             if
             I
             leave
             it
             in
             doubt
             as
             a
             thing
             which
             (
             for
             ought
             you
             or
             I
             know
             )
             might
             be
             true
             or
             false
             ,
             he
             that
             affirms
             it
             was
             not
             so
             ,
             is
             bound
             to
             make
             it
             good
             ;
             and
             if
             I
             deny
             your
             Proposition
             ,
             by
             all
             Laws
             of
             dispute
             ,
             you
             must
             prove
             it
             :
             I
             will
             shew
             by
             an
             instance
             how
             unconvincing
             your
             argument
             is
             ;
             There
             are
             several
             Prophesies
             and
             Promises
             in
             Scripture
             ,
             the
             execution
             whereof
             is
             not
             recorded
             there
             ,
             nor
             any
             where
             else
             ;
             suppose
             an
             Atheist
             comes
             to
             you
             ,
             and
             offers
             this
             Argument
             against
             the
             Scripture
             ;
             If
             the
             Scripture
             be
             true
             ,
             and
             the
             Word
             of
             God
             ,
             then
             all
             its
             Prophesies
             
             and
             Promises
             were
             accomplisht
             ;
             but
             there
             are
             several
             Prophesies
             and
             Promises
             there
             which
             never
             were
             accomplished
             within
             the
             time
             appointed
             ,
             therefore
             it
             is
             not
             true
             ;
             What
             would
             you
             answer
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             I
             would
             deny
             this
             Proposition
             ,
             viz.
             That
             there
             are
             any
             such
             Prophesies
             or
             Promises
             there
             which
             were
             not
             accomplisht
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Suppose
             then
             he
             urge
             it
             thus
             ,
             If
             they
             were
             accomplisht
             ,
             then
             you
             must
             shew
             when
             and
             how
             they
             were
             accomplisht
             either
             in
             Scripture
             or
             other
             Stories
             ,
             if
             you
             cannot
             ,
             I
             shall
             conclude
             they
             never
             were
             accomplisht
             .
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             I
             should
             tell
             him
             ,
             That
             he
             is
             obliged
             to
             shew
             they
             were
             not
             accomplisht
             ,
             not
             I
             to
             shew
             that
             they
             were
             accomplisht
             ;
             I
             should
             tell
             him
             that
             they
             might
             be
             accomplisht
             ,
             though
             the
             accomplishment
             of
             them
             were
             never
             put
             into
             any
             writing
             (
             and
             being
             but
             an
             Historical
             Tradition
             ,
             might
             easily
             be
             lost
             )
             or
             if
             it
             were
             put
             into
             writing
             ,
             that
             also
             might
             be
             lost
             by
             the
             injury
             of
             time
             ,
             as
             thousands
             of
             other
             Books
             have
             been
             ,
             so
             that
             no
             prudent
             man
             will
             believe
             this
             mad
             Proposition
             ,
             That
             nothing
             was
             done
             in
             former
             Ages
             that
             was
             not
             mentioned
             in
             the
             Records
             which
             we
             have
             .
             But
             if
             it
             were
             possible
             that
             some
             particular
             things
             were
             not
             recorded
             ,
             or
             w●re
             lost
             ,
             yet
             it
             is
             probable
             
             that
             so
             eminent
             and
             publick
             a
             matter
             as
             a
             Succession
             of
             Churches
             should
             lie
             hid
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             I
             confess
             it
             is
             not
             so
             probable
             that
             a
             large
             and
             glorious
             Church
             should
             so
             lie
             hid
             ;
             but
             since
             it
             was
             sufficient
             for
             the
             making
             good
             of
             Christs
             promise
             of
             being
             ever
             with
             his
             Church
             ;
             if
             there
             were
             some
             few
             Congregations
             and
             Ministers
             ,
             though
             scattered
             in
             divers
             places
             ,
             that
             these
             should
             not
             be
             recorded
             ,
             is
             not
             at
             all
             strange
             nor
             improbable
             to
             any
             one
             who
             considers
             ,
             1.
             
             How
             many
             matters
             of
             far
             greater
             note
             are
             recorded
             only
             in
             some
             single
             Author
             ,
             which
             if
             he
             had
             been
             lost
             (
             and
             that
             he
             was
             as
             lyable
             to
             ,
             as
             they
             that
             were
             lost
             )
             the
             memory
             of
             those
             things
             had
             perished
             with
             him
             .
             2.
             
             How
             wofully
             dark
             and
             ignorant
             some
             ages
             of
             the
             Church
             were
             ,
             as
             you
             all
             confess
             ,
             wherein
             there
             was
             not
             much
             reading
             ,
             but
             to
             be
             sure
             ,
             there
             was
             little
             or
             no
             writing
             .
             and
             that
             little
             that
             was
             written
             ,
             was
             written
             by
             men
             of
             the
             times
             ,
             who
             would
             not
             do
             their
             Enemies
             that
             honour
             or
             right
             to
             put
             them
             into
             their
             Histories
             :
             3.
             
             If
             any
             did
             mention
             such
             things
             ,
             it
             is
             not
             at
             all
             improbable
             ,
             that
             such
             Book
             or
             Books
             wherein
             they
             were
             recorded
             ,
             might
             either
             be
             lost
             by
             the
             injury
             of
             time
             ,
             (
             as
             thousands
             of
             other
             Books
             were
             ,
             which
             was
             much
             
             more
             easie
             before
             Printing
             was
             found
             out
             ,
             or
             suppressed
             by
             the
             tyranny
             of
             your
             Predecessors
             ,
             who
             made
             it
             their
             business
             (
             as
             Israels
             enemies
             of
             old
             )
             that
             the
             name
             and
             remembrance
             of
             true
             Christians
             might
             be
             blotted
             out
             of
             the
             earth
             .
             So
             then
             ,
             if
             Christ
             did
             indeed
             promise
             the
             perpetual
             visibility
             of
             his
             Church
             ,
             I
             will
             conclude
             he
             made
             it
             good
             ,
             though
             History
             be
             silent
             in
             the
             point
             ;
             nor
             will
             I
             conclude
             it
             was
             not
             done
             ,
             because
             it
             is
             not
             recorded
             :
             But
             I
             pray
             you
             let
             me
             further
             ask
             you
             ,
             Is
             it
             true
             that
             I
             am
             told
             ,
             that
             in
             the
             former
             ages
             there
             were
             many
             Christians
             and
             Ministers
             whom
             your
             Church
             did
             persecute
             and
             burn
             for
             Hereticks
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             That
             cannot
             be
             denyed
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             This
             shews
             there
             were
             not
             wanting
             even
             in
             former
             ages
             ,
             some
             that
             testified
             against
             your
             corruptions
             ,
             and
             this
             was
             a
             sign
             they
             were
             the
             true
             Church
             ,
             (
             whose
             office
             it
             is
             
               to
               contend
               for
               the
               Faith
               delivered
               to
               the
               Saints
            
             )
             for
             these
             things
             were
             not
             done
             in
             a
             corner
             .
             I
             am
             told
             that
             your
             great
             Bellarmine
             ,
             when
             is
             was
             objected
             against
             him
             ,
             that
             the
             Church
             was
             obscure
             in
             St.
             Hilaries
             dayes
             ,
             answers
             ,
             that
             
               though
               the
               true
               Church
               may
               be
               obscure
               by
               multitude
               of
               Scandals
               ,
               yet
               even
               then
               it
               is
               visible
               in
               its
               strongest
               members
               ,
               as
               then
               it
               was
               
               in
            
             Athanasius
             ,
             Hilary
             ,
             Eusebius
             ,
             and
             two
             or
             three
             more
             whom
             he
             mentions
             :
             *
             whence
             I
             gather
             ,
             that
             some
             few
             eminent
             Preachers
             and
             Professors
             of
             the
             Truth
             are
             sufficient
             to
             keep
             up
             this
             Visibility
             :
             I
             remember
             I
             have
             read
             in
             the
             History
             of
             the
             Waldenses
             ,
             who
             (
             though
             your
             Predecessors
             branded
             them
             with
             odious
             names
             and
             opinions
             ,
             yet
             )
             do
             sufficiently
             appear
             to
             have
             been
             a
             company
             of
             Orthodox
             and
             serious
             Christians
             ,
             and
             indeed
             true
             Protestants
             ,
             these
             began
             about
             500
             Years
             ago
             ,
             saith
             your
             Genebrard
             †
             ,
             and
             your
             Reinerius
             ,
             who
             was
             one
             of
             their
             cruel
             Butchers
             ,
             (
             otherwise
             called
             Inquisitors
             )
             writeth
             thus
             of
             them
             ;
             
               This
               Sect
            
             (
             saith
             he
             )
             
               is
               the
               most
               pernicious
               of
               all
               others
               ,
               for
               three
               causes
               ;
               1.
               
               Because
               it
               is
               of
               long
               continuance
               ,
               some
               say
               that
               it
               hath
               endured
               from
               the
               time
               of
            
             Silvester
             ;
             
               others
               from
               the
               time
               of
               the
               Apostles
               ;
               The
               2.
               is
               ,
               because
               it
               is
               more
               general
               ,
               for
               there
               is
               almost
               no
               Land
               in
               which
               this
               Sect
               doth
               not
               creep
               .
               3.
               
               That
               whereas
               all
               others
               by
               the
               immanity
               of
               their
               blasphemies
               against
               God
               ,
               do
               make
               men
               abhor
               them
               ,
               these
               having
               a
               great
               shew
               of
               godliness
               ,
               because
               they
               do
               live
               justly
               before
               men
               ,
               and
               believe
               all
               things
               well
               of
               God
               ,
               and
               all
               
               the
               Articles
               which
               are
               contained
               in
               the
               Creed
               ,
               only
               the
               Church
               of
            
             Rome
             
               they
               do
               blaspheme
               and
               hate
            
             .
             Behold
             here
             out
             of
             your
             own
             mouths
             ,
             a
             plain
             Confutation
             of
             your
             Objection
             ,
             and
             a
             testimony
             of
             the
             perpetuity
             ,
             amplitude
             ,
             visibility
             ,
             and
             sanctity
             of
             our
             Church
             ;
             for
             it
             is
             sufficiently
             known
             that
             our
             Church
             and
             Doctrine
             is
             for
             substance
             the
             same
             with
             theirs
             .
             Now
             tell
             me
             ,
             I
             pray
             you
             ,
             if
             this
             History
             of
             them
             had
             been
             lost
             ,
             and
             no
             other
             mention
             of
             them
             made
             in
             other
             Records
             ,
             Had
             it
             been
             a
             truth
             for
             you
             to
             affirm
             ,
             that
             there
             never
             were
             any
             such
             men
             and
             Churches
             in
             that
             time
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             No
             surely
             ,
             for
             the
             recording
             of
             things
             in
             History
             doth
             not
             make
             them
             true
             ,
             nor
             the
             silence
             of
             Histories
             about
             true
             Occurrences
             make
             them
             false
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Then
             there
             might
             be
             the
             like
             Companies
             and
             Congregations
             in
             former
             ages
             for
             ought
             you
             or
             I
             know
             ;
             nor
             can
             you
             argue
             from
             the
             defect
             of
             an
             History
             to
             the
             denial
             of
             the
             thing
             :
             And
             all
             this
             I
             say
             not
             as
             if
             there
             were
             no
             Records
             which
             mention
             our
             Church
             in
             former
             Ages
             ;
             for
             as
             I
             said
             before
             ,
             it
             is
             sufficiently
             evident
             ,
             that
             all
             our
             material
             Doctrines
             have
             been
             constantly
             and
             successively
             owned
             by
             a
             considerable
             number
             of
             persons
             in
             several
             Ages
             ,
             but
             only
             that
             you
             may
             see
             
             there
             is
             a
             flaw
             in
             the
             very
             foundation
             of
             your
             Argument
             .
             Moreover
             ,
             I
             finde
             in
             Scripture
             several
             instances
             of
             such
             times
             when
             the
             Church
             was
             as
             much
             obscured
             ,
             and
             invisible
             as
             ever
             our
             Church
             was
             ,
             as
             when
             Israel
             was
             in
             Egypt
             ,
             so
             oft-times
             under
             the
             Judges
             ,
             Iudg.
             2.
             3.
             and
             so
             under
             divers
             of
             the
             Kings
             ,
             as
             Ahab
             ,
             when
             Elijab
             complained
             he
             was
             left
             alone
             ,
             and
             the
             7000.
             which
             were
             reserved
             ,
             though
             known
             to
             God
             ,
             were
             invisible
             to
             the
             prophet
             ;
             and
             under
             Ahaz
             and
             Manasseh
             ,
             and
             so
             in
             the
             Babylonish
             captivity
             :
             and
             so
             under
             Antiochus
             ;
             read
             at
             my
             desire
             ,
             2
             Chr.
             15.
             3.
             28.
             24.
             29.
             6
             ,
             7.
             33.
             3
             ,
             4.
             so
             in
             the
             New
             Testament
             ,
             how
             obscure
             ,
             and
             in
             a
             manner
             invisible
             ,
             was
             the
             Christian
             Church
             for
             a
             season
             !
             Nay
             ,
             let
             me
             add
             ,
             this
             perpetual
             visibility
             and
             splendour
             is
             so
             far
             from
             being
             a
             note
             of
             the
             true
             Church
             ,
             that
             on
             the
             contrary
             ,
             it
             is
             rather
             a
             sign
             that
             yours
             is
             not
             the
             true
             Church
             ,
             as
             appears
             thus
             :
             Christ
             hath
             foretold
             the
             obscurity
             and
             smallness
             of
             his
             Church
             in
             some
             after
             ages
             ;
             he
             tells
             us
             that
             there
             shall
             be
             a
             general
             Apostasie
             and
             defection
             from
             the
             faith
             ,
             2
             
               Thess.
               2.
               1
               
               Tim.
            
             4.
             
             I
             read
             of
             a
             woman
             ,
             Rev.
             12.
             and
             she
             is
             forced
             to
             flee
             into
             the
             Wilderness
             ;
             and
             I
             am
             told
             your
             own
             Expositors
             agree
             with
             us
             ,
             that
             
             this
             is
             the
             Church
             which
             flees
             from
             Antichrist
             into
             the
             Wilderness
             ,
             and
             secret
             places
             ,
             withdrawing
             her self
             from
             persecution
             .
             Is
             this
             true
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             I
             must
             confess
             our
             Authers
             do
             t●ke
             it
             so
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Then
             it
             seems
             you
             do
             not
             believe
             your selves
             ,
             when
             you
             plead
             the
             necessity
             of
             perpetual
             visibility
             and
             splendour
             ,
             for
             here
             you
             acknowledge
             her
             obscurity
             ;
             and
             really
             this
             place
             and
             discourse
             of
             yours
             does
             very
             much
             confirm
             me
             ,
             that
             that
             obscurity
             which
             you
             object
             against
             us
             ,
             is
             an
             argument
             that
             ours
             is
             the
             true
             Church
             though
             ,
             according
             to
             this
             Prediction
             ,
             the
             Pope
             this
             Antichrist
             ,
             did
             drive
             our
             Predecessors
             into
             the
             Wilderness
             ,
             I
             read
             of
             
               a
               Beast
               rising
               out
               of
               the
               Sea.
            
             Revel
             .
             13.
             which
             your
             own
             Authors
             ,
             
               Menochius
               ,
               Tirinus
            
             ,
             and
             almost
             all
             Expositors
             (
             as
             Riberus
             saith
             )
             acknowledge
             to
             be
             Antichrist
             ,
             and
             this
             Beast
             
               all
               the
               Inhabitants
               of
               the
               World
               do
               worship
               ,
               except
               those
               whose
               names
               are
               written
               in
               the
               Book
               of
               life
               ,
            
             verse
             8.
             that
             is
             ,
             excepting
             only
             the
             invisible
             Church
             ;
             if
             any
             Church
             be
             visible
             and
             glorious
             at
             that
             time
             ,
             it
             must
             be
             the
             false
             and
             Antichristian
             Church
             ;
             and
             now
             I
             speak
             of
             that
             ,
             I
             have
             heard
             that
             you
             your selves
             confess
             ,
             that
             in
             the
             time
             of
             Antichrist
             
             the
             Church
             shall
             be
             obscure
             ,
             and
             all
             publick
             Worship
             in
             the
             Churches
             of
             Christians
             shall
             be
             forbidden
             and
             cease
             :
             Is
             it
             so
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             It
             is
             true
             ,
             it
             shall
             be
             so
             ,
             
               i.
               e.
            
             during
             the
             time
             of
             Antichrists
             reign
             ,
             as
             Bellarmine
             acknowledgeth
             *
             ,
             but
             that
             is
             only
             for
             a
             short
             moment
             ,
             for
             three
             years
             and
             a
             half
             ,
             which
             is
             all
             the
             time
             that
             Antichrist
             shall
             reign
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             I
             thank
             you
             for
             this
             ,
             for
             now
             you
             have
             exceedingly
             confirmed
             me
             in
             the
             truth
             of
             my
             Religion
             ;
             for
             since
             you
             grant
             that
             the
             Church
             shall
             be
             obscured
             durings
             Antichrist
             reign
             ,
             I
             am
             very
             well
             assured
             that
             your
             opinion
             of
             the
             Triennial
             reign
             of
             Antichrist
             is
             but
             a
             meer
             dream
             ,
             and
             that
             he
             was
             to
             reign
             in
             the
             Church
             for
             many
             hundred
             of
             years
             ,
             for
             1260
             
               dayes
               ,
               Rev.
            
             11.
             3.
             
             &
             12.
             6.
             
             (
             that
             is
             ,
             years
             ,
             it
             being
             a
             very
             familiar
             thing
             to
             put
             dayes
             for
             years
             ,
             in
             Prophetical
             Writings
             .
             )
             But
             if
             the
             Church
             may
             be
             obscured
             for
             three
             years
             ,
             why
             not
             for
             thirty
             ,
             yea
             ,
             three
             hundred
             ?
             Did
             Christ
             in
             his
             supposed
             promise
             of
             perpetual
             Visibility
             in
             the
             Church
             ,
             make
             an
             exception
             for
             these
             three
             years
             ?
             I
             trow
             not
             :
             And
             tell
             me
             ,
             I
             pray
             you
             ,
             should
             you
             live
             till
             
             that
             time
             when
             Antichrist
             shall
             prevail
             ,
             and
             your
             Religion
             no
             less
             than
             ours
             be
             obscure
             and
             invisible
             ;
             if
             any
             of
             the
             followers
             of
             Antichrist
             should
             dispute
             against
             you
             ,
             that
             yours
             was
             not
             the
             true
             Church
             because
             not
             visible
             ,
             Would
             you
             grant
             it
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             God
             forbid
             I
             should
             be
             so
             wicked
             to
             deny
             my
             Mother
             ,
             and
             Church
             ,
             because
             of
             her
             Afflictions
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Then
             I
             see
             you
             your selves
             do
             not
             believe
             this
             to
             he
             a
             good
             argument
             ,
             and
             that
             you
             do
             not
             make
             perpetual
             visibility
             a
             necessary
             token
             of
             the
             true
             Church
             .
             To
             this
             I
             add
             ,
             there
             is
             no
             need
             we
             should
             shew
             a
             constant
             succession
             of
             Protestant
             Churches
             ever
             since
             the
             Apostles
             dayes
             ,
             (
             as
             you
             pretend
             is
             necessary
             )
             the
             succession
             that
             you
             pretend
             in
             your
             Church
             is
             sufficient
             for
             ours
             ,
             and
             so
             long
             as
             we
             generally
             agree
             that
             your
             Church
             was
             a
             true
             Church
             (
             till
             later
             years
             )
             though
             wofully
             corrupted
             ,
             and
             our
             Predecessors
             continued
             in
             it
             ,
             till
             your
             wounds
             stunk
             and
             became
             incurable
             ,
             we
             need
             no
             other
             succession
             than
             yours
             ;
             but
             when
             your
             impiety
             came
             to
             the
             height
             ,
             then
             we
             visibly
             departed
             from
             you
             ,
             and
             have
             given
             such
             reasons
             for
             it
             ,
             as
             you
             will
             never
             be
             able
             to
             answer
             ;
             In
             the
             mean
             time
             let
             me
             hear
             what
             you
             have
             further
             to
             say
             .
          
        
         
           
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             For
             as
             much
             as
             all
             your
             Ministers
             confess
             our
             Church
             was
             once
             a
             true
             Church
             ,
             I
             pray
             you
             tell
             me
             how
             ,
             and
             when
             she
             did
             fall
             ?
             you
             cannot
             tell
             either
             the
             time
             when
             she
             fell
             ,
             or
             the
             manner
             how
             ,
             by
             Apostacy
             ,
             or
             Heresie
             ,
             or
             Schism
             ;
             if
             you
             can
             ,
             name
             your
             Authors
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             This
             is
             a
             most
             unreasonable
             demand
             :
             A
             friend
             of
             mine
             had
             the
             Plague
             last
             year
             ,
             and
             died
             of
             it
             I
             askt
             him
             when
             he
             was
             sick
             ,
             how
             and
             when
             he
             got
             it
             ,
             he
             said
             he
             knew
             not
             ;
             Shall
             I
             then
             conclude
             he
             had
             it
             not
             ?
             Shall
             I
             make
             Christ
             a
             lyar
             ,
             and
             dispute
             that
             there
             were
             no
             tares
             ,
             because
             they
             were
             
               sown
               when
               men
               slept
            
             ,
             Mat.
             13.
             25.
             and
             so
             could
             not
             know
             when
             or
             how
             they
             came
             ?
             Shall
             I
             believe
             no
             Heresie
             to
             be
             an
             Heresie
             ,
             unless
             I
             can
             shew
             how
             and
             when
             it
             came
             into
             the
             Church
             ?
             What
             if
             the
             Records
             of
             these
             things
             by
             the
             injury
             of
             time
             are
             lost
             ,
             and
             their
             original
             left
             in
             obscurity
             ;
             shall
             I
             therefore
             say
             ,
             it
             is
             now
             become
             no
             Heresie
             ?
             I
             beseech
             you
             answer
             me
             freely
             this
             question
             .
             Suppose
             I
             could
             bring
             plain
             and
             strong
             evidences
             from
             the
             holy
             Scripture
             ,
             and
             from
             antient
             Tradition
             ,
             or
             the
             unanimous
             testimonies
             of
             the
             Antient
             Fathers
             ,
             that
             your
             Doctrine
             of
             Merits
             (
             for
             instance
             )
             is
             an
             Heresie
             ,
             your
             Doctrine
             of
             
             worshipping
             Images
             is
             Idolatry
             ;
             and
             that
             you
             are
             in
             divers
             particulars
             apostatized
             from
             that
             faith
             which
             the
             Scriptures
             and
             Fathers
             do
             own
             ;
             in
             this
             case
             ,
             Would
             you
             not
             confess
             ,
             that
             you
             are
             guilty
             of
             Idolatry
             ,
             Heresie
             ,
             and
             Apostasie
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             If
             it
             were
             so
             ,
             and
             you
             could
             really
             bring
             (
             as
             you
             falsely
             pretend
             you
             can
             ,
             but
             indeed
             cannot
             )
             any
             such
             solid
             proofs
             ,
             I
             must
             and
             will
             confess
             it
             :
             For
             all
             our
             Writers
             agree
             ,
             that
             although
             we
             must
             believe
             many
             things
             that
             are
             not
             contained
             in
             the
             Scripture
             ,
             yet
             we
             must
             believe
             nothing
             contrary
             to
             the
             Scriptures
             ,
             nor
             to
             the
             consent
             of
             the
             antient
             Fathers
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Very
             well
             ,
             hence
             then
             I
             gather
             that
             the
             only
             question
             between
             you
             and
             me
             is
             ,
             Whether
             we
             can
             evidently
             and
             solidly
             prove
             the
             particulars
             now
             mentioned
             ,
             which
             if
             we
             can
             do
             ,
             as
             I
             am
             satisfied
             our
             Ministers
             have
             done
             ,
             you
             are
             convicted
             in
             your
             own
             Conscience
             ,
             and
             will
             confess
             your self
             and
             your
             Church
             guilty
             of
             Heresie
             ,
             Idolatry
             ,
             and
             Apostasie
             ,
             whether
             I
             can
             tell
             the
             manner
             or
             time
             ,
             or
             Authors
             of
             this
             doctrine
             or
             no.
             
          
           
             Therefore
             leaving
             these
             frivolous
             and
             impertinent
             questions
             ,
             let
             me
             hear
             what
             you
             have
             to
             say
             more
             against
             our
             Religion
             ,
             and
             whereas
             your
             discourse
             I
             observe
             
             hath
             wholly
             run
             upon
             Generals
             ,
             I
             beseech
             you
             come
             to
             some
             particulars
             ,
             and
             shew
             me
             the
             falshood
             of
             the
             Doctrines
             of
             our
             Church
             .
             But
             it
             doth
             not
             a
             little
             confirm
             me
             in
             my
             Religion
             ,
             that
             you
             confess
             (
             as
             I
             shewed
             before
             )
             most
             of
             our
             Doctrines
             to
             be
             true
             ,
             and
             grounded
             upon
             Scripture
             ,
             whereas
             yours
             are
             additions
             of
             your
             own
             devising
             .
             Now
             if
             things
             be
             thus
             ,
             you
             shall
             not
             need
             to
             trouble
             your self
             about
             many
             particulars
             .
             But
             if
             you
             please
             single
             out
             some
             of
             our
             principal
             Heresies
             ,
             (
             as
             you
             call
             them
             )
             and
             let
             me
             hear
             what
             evidences
             you
             can
             bring
             against
             them
             .
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             Your
             Heresies
             are
             very
             many
             ,
             but
             I
             shall
             mention
             one
             which
             may
             be
             instead
             of
             all
             ,
             and
             that
             is
             your
             rule
             of
             Faith
             and
             Iudge
             of
             Controversies
             ,
             which
             you
             make
             to
             be
             the
             Scripture
             only
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot
             ,
          
           
             I
             am
             glad
             you
             have
             fallen
             upon
             so
             material
             a
             point
             ,
             the
             deciding
             whereof
             may
             make
             other
             Disputes
             in
             great
             part
             useless
             .
             Tell
             me
             then
             what
             you
             have
             to
             say
             against
             this
             Doctrine
             .
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             I
             will
             urge
             four
             Arguments
             against
             it
             .
             1.
             
             Scripture
             hath
             no
             authority
             over
             us
             but
             from
             the
             Church
             .
             2.
             
             You
             cannot
             know
             what
             Books
             are
             the
             holy
             Scriptures
             ,
             or
             part
             of
             it
             ,
             but
             by
             the
             Churches
             report
             .
             
             3.
             
             If
             neither
             of
             these
             were
             true
             ,
             yet
             Scripture
             is
             not
             a
             sufficient
             rule
             for
             your
             faith
             without
             Tradition
             .
             4.
             
             If
             it
             were
             sufficient
             ,
             yet
             it
             is
             so
             obscure
             ,
             that
             you
             cannot
             know
             the
             sense
             of
             it
             without
             the
             interpretation
             of
             the
             Church
             .
             You
             see
             here
             is
             a
             fourfold
             cord
             ,
             which
             you
             will
             find
             is
             not
             easily
             broken
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Make
             these
             things
             good
             ,
             and
             I
             confess
             you
             do
             your
             work
             in
             a
             great
             measure
             .
             Let
             me
             hear
             your
             Proofs
             .
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             For
             the
             first
             then
             ,
             I
             say
             ,
             that
             Scripture
             hath
             no
             authority
             over
             us
             but
             from
             the
             Church
             :
             neither
             you
             nor
             I
             are
             bound
             to
             believe
             the
             Scripture
             to
             be
             the
             word
             of
             God
             ,
             nor
             can
             any
             man
             know
             it
             or
             prove
             it
             to
             be
             so
             ,
             but
             from
             the
             testimony
             of
             our
             Church
             concerning
             it
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             I
             pray
             tell
             me
             ,
             if
             you
             were
             to
             discourse
             with
             an
             Atheist
             ,
             who
             utterly
             denies
             the
             holy
             Scriptures
             and
             the
             Church
             too
             ,
             Could
             you
             not
             prove
             against
             him
             that
             the
             Scriptures
             are
             the
             Word
             of
             God
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             God
             forbid
             ,
             but
             that
             I
             should
             be
             able
             to
             defend
             the
             truth
             of
             the
             Scriptures
             against
             any
             adversary
             whatsoever
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             How
             then
             I
             pray
             you
             would
             you
             prove
             it
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             I
             need
             not
             tell
             you
             the
             Arguments
             which
             in
             this
             case
             our
             Doctors
             use
             ,
             and
             I
             
             stand
             by
             them
             in
             it
             ,
             they
             alledge
             for
             the
             truth
             of
             the
             holy
             Scriptures
             the
             testimony
             of
             all
             ages
             and
             all
             sorts
             of
             persons
             ,
             the
             miracles
             wrought
             for
             it
             acknowledged
             even
             by
             the
             Enemies
             of
             it
             ,
             the
             martyrdom
             ,
             that
             so
             many
             thousands
             (
             and
             many
             of
             them
             wise
             and
             learned
             men
             )
             did
             run
             upon
             in
             the
             defence
             of
             them
             (
             who
             living
             so
             near
             the
             time
             of
             the
             writing
             of
             them
             were
             best
             able
             do
             discern
             the
             truth
             )
             and
             the
             wonderful
             power
             that
             goes
             along
             with
             them
             in
             convincing
             ,
             converting
             ,
             and
             comforting
             or
             terrifying
             sinners
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Do
             you
             believe
             these
             are
             solid
             Arguments
             ,
             and
             that
             the
             Atheist
             ought
             to
             yield
             to
             them
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             Yes
             doubtless
             ,
             for
             every
             man
             is
             bound
             to
             receive
             the
             truth
             ,
             especially
             when
             it
             is
             so
             proposed
             and
             proved
             to
             him
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             It
             seems
             then
             by
             this
             ,
             when
             you
             list
             ,
             you
             can
             prove
             the
             Scripture
             to
             be
             the
             Word
             of
             God
             without
             taking
             in
             the
             Churches
             Authority
             ;
             I
             hope
             you
             will
             allow
             me
             the
             same
             benefit
             .
             But
             again
             let
             me
             ask
             you
             ,
             your
             Church
             that
             you
             talk
             of
             ,
             which
             believes
             the
             Scripture
             to
             be
             the
             Word
             of
             God
             ;
             Doth
             she
             believe
             it
             to
             be
             the
             Word
             of
             God
             upon
             solid
             grounds
             or
             no
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             Yes
             doubtless
             ,
             our
             Church
             is
             not
             so
             irrational
             as
             to
             believe
             without
             grounds
             ;
             nor
             
             do
             we
             pretend
             Revelation
             ,
             but
             she
             believes
             it
             upon
             solid
             Arguments
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             I
             wish
             you
             would
             give
             me
             a
             list
             of
             their
             Arguments
             :
             But
             whatever
             they
             be
             that
             are
             sufficient
             to
             convince
             your
             Church
             ,
             why
             should
             they
             not
             be
             sufficient
             to
             convince
             any
             private
             man
             ,
             Popish
             or
             Protestant
             ,
             or
             Atheist
             ?
             And
             therefore
             there
             is
             no
             need
             of
             the
             Churches
             testimony
             :
             Or
             will
             you
             say
             ,
             the
             Church
             hath
             no
             other
             sufficient
             reason
             to
             believe
             the
             Scriptures
             but
             her
             own
             testimony
             ,
             
               that
               is
            
             ,
             she
             believes
             because
             she
             will
             believe
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             God
             forbid
             that
             I
             should
             disparage
             the
             Church
             ,
             or
             give
             Atheists
             that
             occasion
             to
             scoff
             at
             the
             Stripture
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Then
             I
             also
             may
             be
             satisfied
             without
             the
             Churches
             testimony
             ,
             that
             the
             Scriptures
             are
             the
             Word
             of
             God
             ;
             and
             I
             am
             so
             ,
             by
             such
             Arguments
             as
             your self
             mentioned
             ;
             but
             really
             I
             cannot
             but
             smile
             to
             see
             what
             cunning
             sophisters
             you
             are
             ,
             how
             you
             play
             at
             fast
             and
             loose
             :
             The
             same
             Arguments
             for
             the
             Scriptures
             are
             strong
             and
             undeniable
             when
             you
             talk
             with
             an
             Atheist
             ,
             and
             are
             all
             of
             a
             sudden
             become
             weak
             as
             water
             when
             a
             Protestant
             brings
             them
             .
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             But
             if
             you
             can
             prove
             in
             the
             General
             ,
             That
             the
             Scriptures
             are
             the
             Word
             of
             God
             ,
             
             yet
             you
             cannnot
             without
             the
             Churches
             Authority
             ,
             tell
             what
             Books
             of
             Scripture
             ,
             or
             which
             are
             Canonical
             ,
             and
             so
             you
             are
             never
             the
             nearer
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Here
             also
             I
             must
             ask
             you
             again
             ,
             How
             doth
             your
             Church
             know
             which
             Books
             are
             Scripture
             and
             Canonical
             ,
             doth
             she
             know
             this
             by
             Revelation
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             No
             ,
             we
             leave
             such
             fancies
             to
             your
             Church
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             How
             then
             doth
             she
             know
             this
             ,
             and
             why
             doth
             she
             determine
             it
             ?
             Is
             it
             with
             reason
             ,
             or
             without
             it
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             With
             reason
             doubtless
             ,
             being
             induced
             to
             believe
             and
             determine
             it
             upon
             clear
             and
             undoubted
             Evidences
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             I
             pray
             you
             tell
             me
             what
             are
             those
             Evidences
             upon
             which
             she
             goes
             .
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             
               I
               will
               be
               true
               to
               you
               ,
               our
               great
            
             Bellarmine
             
               mentions
               these
               three
            
             ,
             The
             Church
             (
             
               saith
               he
            
             )
             knows
             and
             declares
             a
             Canonical
             Book
             ,
             1.
             
             From
             the
             testimonies
             of
             the
             Antients
             .
             2.
             
             From
             its
             likeness
             and
             agreement
             with
             other
             Books
             .
             3.
             
             From
             the
             common
             sense
             and
             taste
             of
             Christian
             people
             *
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Since
             a
             private
             man
             especially
             one
             that
             besides
             learning
             and
             experience
             
             hath
             the
             Spirit
             of
             God
             to
             guide
             him
             ,
             which
             is
             that
             anointing
             given
             to
             all
             Believers
             ,
             which
             teaches
             them
             all
             things
             ,
             1
             Joh.
             2.
             27.
             
             )
             may
             examine
             and
             apprehend
             these
             things
             as
             well
             as
             the
             Pope
             himself
             ,
             (
             and
             better
             too
             ,
             considering
             what
             kind
             of
             creatures
             divers
             of
             your
             Popes
             are
             confest
             to
             have
             been
             )
             he
             may
             therefore
             know
             without
             the
             Churches
             Authority
             ,
             what
             Books
             are
             indeed
             Canonical
             ;
             but
             I
             pray
             you
             tell
             me
             ,
             Do
             not
             you
             acknowledge
             those
             books
             to
             be
             the
             Word
             of
             God
             which
             we
             do
             that
             are
             in
             this
             Bible
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             I
             must
             be
             true
             to
             you
             ,
             we
             do
             own
             every
             Book
             you
             have
             there
             ;
             but
             you
             should
             receive
             the
             Books
             which
             you
             call
             Apocryphal
             ,
             so
             that
             indeed
             your
             Bible
             is
             not
             compleat
             ,
             for
             you
             believe
             but
             a
             part
             of
             the
             written
             Word
             of
             God
             ,
             which
             I
             must
             tell
             you
             is
             of
             dangerous
             consequence
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             If
             these
             Books
             be
             a
             part
             of
             Gods
             Word
             ,
             I
             confess
             we
             are
             guilty
             of
             a
             great
             sin
             ,
             in
             taking
             away
             from
             Gods
             Word
             ;
             and
             if
             they
             be
             not
             ,
             you
             are
             no
             less
             guilty
             in
             adding
             to
             it
             ;
             so
             that
             the
             only
             question
             is
             ,
             Whether
             these
             Books
             be
             a
             part
             of
             the
             holy
             Scripture
             or
             no
             ?
             Now
             ,
             that
             if
             you
             please
             we
             will
             try
             Bellarmines
             rules
             .
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             The
             motion
             is
             fair
             and
             reasonable
             .
          
        
         
           
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             First
             then
             ,
             for
             the
             judgment
             of
             the
             Antient
             Church
             ,
             let
             us
             try
             that
             ;
             I
             know
             you
             hold
             the
             Churches
             judgment
             infallible
             ,
             especially
             in
             matters
             of
             this
             moment
             ;
             and
             I
             suppose
             you
             think
             the
             Iewish
             Church
             was
             infallible
             before
             Christ
             ,
             as
             the
             Christian
             Church
             now
             is
             .
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             We
             do
             so
             ,
             and
             the
             Infallibility
             of
             the
             Iewish
             Church
             and
             High
             Priest
             ,
             Deut.
             17.
             is
             one
             of
             our
             principal
             Arguments
             for
             the
             Infallibility
             of
             our
             Church
             *
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Then
             only
             these
             Books
             of
             the
             old
             Testament
             were
             Canonical
             ,
             which
             the
             Jewish
             Church
             did
             own
             .
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             That
             must
             necessarily
             follow
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Then
             your
             cause
             is
             lost
             ,
             for
             it
             is
             certain
             ,
             the
             Jews
             rejected
             these
             Apocryphal
             Books
             which
             you
             receive
             ,
             and
             they
             reckoned
             only
             22.
             
             Iosephus
             his
             words
             (
             acknowledged
             for
             his
             by
             Eusebius
             †
             )
             ,
             are
             most
             express
             for
             us
             ,
             
               The
               Iews
               have
               only
               22
               Books
               ,
               to
               which
               they
               deservedly
               give
               credit
               ,
               which
               contains
               things
               written
               from
               the
               beginning
               of
               the
               World
               to
               the
               times
               of
            
             Artaxerxes
             :
             
               other
               things
               were
               written
               afterward
            
             ,
             (
             so
             the
             Apocryphal
             Books
             are
             granted
             to
             have
             been
             )
             
               but
               they
               are
               not
               of
               the
               same
               credit
               with
               the
               former
               ,
               because
               
               There
               was
               no
               certain
               succession
               of
               Prophets
               ,
            
             b
             and
             I
             am
             told
             divers
             of
             your
             learned
             Authors
             confess
             it
             ,
             as
             Catharinus
             ,
             c
             Costerus
             ,
             d
             
               Marianus
               Victor
            
             ,
             e
             and
             Bellarmine
             himself
             ,
             whose
             words
             are
             these
             ;
             
               All
               those
               Books
               which
               the
               Protestants
               do
               not
               receive
               ,
               the
               Iews
               also
               did
               not
               receive
               :
            
             f
             and
             this
             is
             more
             considerable
             ,
             because
             
               to
               the
               Iews
               were
               committed
               the
               Oracles
               of
               God
               ,
            
             Rom.
             3.
             2.
             
             And
             neither
             Christ
             nor
             his
             Apostles
             did
             accuse
             them
             of
             breach
             of
             trust
             in
             this
             matter
             .
             Moreover
             ,
             I
             am
             told
             (
             and
             surely
             in
             all
             reason
             it
             must
             needs
             be
             true
             )
             that
             the
             Canonical
             Books
             of
             the
             Iewish
             Church
             were
             written
             in
             the
             Iewish
             or
             Hebrew
             language
             ,
             whereas
             these
             were
             written
             in
             Greek
             only
             .
             Are
             these
             things
             so
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             What
             is
             true
             I
             will
             acknowledge
             ;
             It
             is
             so
             ;
             The
             Jewish
             Church
             indeed
             did
             not
             receive
             them
             ,
             nor
             yet
             did
             they
             reject
             them
             ,
             as
             our
             Canus
             well
             answers
             .
             g
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Either
             that
             Church
             did
             believe
             them
             to
             be
             Canonical
             ,
             or
             they
             did
             not
             ;
             
             if
             they
             did
             ,
             then
             they
             lived
             in
             a
             mortal
             sin
             against
             Conscience
             in
             not
             receiving
             them
             ;
             if
             they
             did
             not
             ,
             they
             were
             of
             our
             opinion
             .
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             Well
             ,
             what
             soever
             the
             Jewish
             Church
             did
             ,
             I
             am
             sure
             the
             Antient
             Christians
             and
             Fathers
             did
             receive
             these
             Books
             as
             a
             part
             of
             the
             Canonical
             Scriptures
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             I
             doubt
             I
             shall
             take
             you
             tardy
             there
             too
             ;
             I
             am
             told
             that
             the
             Council
             of
             Laodicea
             ,
             (
             in
             the
             year
             of
             our
             Lord
             364.
             )
             drew
             up
             a
             Catalogue
             of
             the
             Books
             of
             the
             Scripture
             ,
             in
             which
             (
             as
             in
             ours
             )
             the
             Apocryphal
             Books
             are
             rejected
             .
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             It
             is
             true
             ,
             they
             did
             not
             receive
             them
             ,
             nor
             yet
             reject
             them
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             If
             they
             did
             not
             receive
             them
             ,
             that
             undeniably
             shews
             that
             they
             did
             not
             believe
             them
             to
             be
             Canonical
             ,
             and
             yet
             they
             diligently
             scanned
             the
             point
             ,
             and
             the
             Books
             had
             then
             been
             extant
             some
             hundred
             of
             years
             ,
             and
             they
             were
             far
             more
             likely
             to
             know
             the
             truth
             than
             we
             at
             this
             distance
             ,
             having
             then
             such
             special
             opportunities
             of
             knowing
             the
             judgement
             of
             the
             antient
             Church
             ,
             both
             Iewish
             and
             Christian
             :
             Besides
             ,
             I
             am
             informed
             that
             the
             famous
             Bishop
             of
             
               Sardis
               Melito
            
             ,
             (
             a
             man
             of
             great
             judgment
             and
             venerable
             holiness
             ,
             as
             your
             
               Sixtus
               Senensis
            
             saith
             )
             did
             take
             a
             
             journey
             to
             the
             Eastern
             Churches
             (
             where
             the
             Apostles
             principally
             preached
             )
             to
             find
             out
             the
             true
             Canon
             of
             the
             Scripture
             ,
             and
             returned
             with
             the
             same
             Canon
             that
             we
             own
             ;
             but
             for
             the
             Apochrypha
             brought
             home
             a
             
               Non
               est
               inventus
            
             :
             And
             moreover
             that
             divers
             of
             your
             greatest
             Champions
             do
             confess
             ,
             that
             a
             great
             number
             of
             the
             Antient
             Fathers
             were
             of
             our
             opinion
             ,
             among
             which
             themselves
             reckon
             
               Melito
               ,
               Origen
               ,
               Athanasius
               ,
               Eusebius
               ,
               Ruffinus
               ,
               Hierom
               ,
            
             and
             Amphilocius
             ,
             so
             say
             Canus
             and
             Bellarmine
             ,
             and
             Andradius
             ;
             and
             in
             the
             General
             ,
             
               Sixtus
               Senensis
            
             confesseth
             ,
             that
             
               the
               Antient
               Fathers
               were
               of
               our
               opinion
               .
            
             Are
             these
             things
             so
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             I
             will
             not
             deny
             the
             truth
             ,
             it
             is
             so
             ;
             but
             you
             must
             know
             that
             other
             Fathers
             were
             of
             another
             minde
             ,
             as
             
               Clemens
               ,
               Cyprian
            
             ,
             and
             Ambrose
             ,
             and
             especially
             St.
             Austin
             ,
             and
             the
             Council
             of
             Carthage
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             The
             Fathers
             of
             our
             opinion
             ,
             were
             both
             far
             more
             numerous
             ,
             and
             such
             as
             lived
             nearest
             the
             Apostolical
             Times
             ,
             and
             Churches
             :
             The
             Council
             of
             Laodicea
             was
             more
             antient
             than
             that
             of
             Carthage
             ,
             (
             and
             therefore
             of
             greater
             Authority
             )
             and
             besides
             ,
             the
             sixth
             Council
             of
             Constantinople
             doth
             expresly
             confirm
             all
             the
             Decrees
             of
             the
             Council
             of
             Laodicea
             ,
             among
             which
             
             this
             was
             one
             )
             and
             the
             Council
             of
             Carthage
             too
             doth
             not
             your
             work
             :
             For
             in
             their
             Catalogue
             there
             is
             both
             more
             than
             you
             own
             ,
             to
             wit
             ,
             the
             third
             Book
             of
             Esdras
             ,
             (
             although
             they
             call
             it
             the
             second
             ,
             as
             the
             Greeks
             did
             )
             and
             less
             too
             ,
             for
             they
             shut
             out
             Baruch
             and
             the
             Maccabees
             ;
             But
             besides
             all
             this
             ,
             I
             am
             told
             that
             very
             many
             of
             your
             most
             eminent
             Doctors
             have
             disowned
             these
             Books
             which
             we
             reject
             ,
             as
             the
             Parisian
             Divines
             ,
             and
             Cardinal
             Ximenius
             ,
             with
             the
             Complutensian
             University
             ,
             and
             Aquinas
             ,
             and
             Lyra
             ,
             and
             Pagnim
             ,
             and
             many
             others
             .
             Is
             it
             so
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             I
             confess
             this
             is
             true
             .
             *
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Then
             I
             am
             sure
             this
             may
             satisfie
             any
             rational
             man
             ,
             concerning
             the
             Testimony
             of
             the
             Antient
             Church
             ;
             and
             for
             the
             next
             point
             ,
             viz.
             their
             agreement
             with
             the
             Canonical
             Books
             .
             I
             think
             it
             is
             plain
             enough
             that
             they
             do
             grosly
             contradict
             them
             ,
             and
             the
             truth
             too
             ;
             that
             fact
             of
             Simeon
             and
             Levi
             ,
             which
             good
             Iacob
             acted
             by
             Gods
             Spirit
             detesteth
             ,
             Iudith
             commends
             ,
             
               Chap.
               9.
               
               Tobit
            
             is
             said
             to
             have
             lived
             202.
             years
             ,
             Chap.
             14.
             whereas
             if
             he
             said
             
             true
             ,
             he
             must
             have
             lived
             twice
             as
             long
             ,
             for
             he
             saith
             he
             was
             taken
             captive
             by
             Salmanasser
             ,
             Chap.
             1.
             and
             2.
             and
             14.
             and
             when
             he
             was
             about
             to
             die
             ,
             he
             saith
             ,
             the
             time
             was
             near
             for
             the
             return
             of
             the
             Israelites
             from
             their
             Captivity
             ,
             and
             the
             re-building
             of
             the
             Temple
             which
             was
             burn'd
             :
             If
             the
             Books
             of
             the
             Maccabees
             say
             true
             ,
             Antiochus
             his
             soul
             had
             a
             lease
             of
             his
             body
             for
             three
             lives
             ,
             and
             he
             was
             killed
             thrice
             over
             ,
             (
             I
             commend
             the
             Author
             ,
             he
             was
             resolved
             to
             make
             sure
             work
             of
             him
             .
             )
             1.
             
             He
             dies
             at
             Babylon
             in
             his
             bed
             ,
             1
             Mac.
             2.
             6.
             then
             he
             is
             stoned
             in
             the
             Temple
             of
             
               Nanea
               ,
               2
               Mac.
            
             1.
             
             Lastly
             ,
             he
             dyes
             in
             the
             Mountains
             by
             a
             fall
             out
             of
             his
             Chariot
             ,
             2
             Maccab.
             9.
             
             And
             the
             fine
             fetches
             of
             your
             Authors
             to
             reconcile
             these
             gross
             contradictions
             ,
             put
             me
             in
             mind
             of
             a
             story
             we
             heard
             at
             School
             (
             if
             you
             remember
             )
             of
             a
             Gentleman
             that
             told
             this
             lye
             ,
             *
             That
             he
             shot
             a
             Deer
             at
             one
             shot
             through
             his
             right
             ear
             ,
             and
             left
             hinder
             leg
             ;
             and
             you
             know
             how
             hard
             his
             man
             was
             put
             to
             it
             to
             help
             his
             Master
             out
             ;
             but
             I
             will
             not
             launch
             forth
             into
             the
             Sea
             of
             untruths
             and
             absurdities
             that
             are
             contained
             in
             those
             Books
             ;
             these
             may
             suffice
             to
             shew
             you
             that
             we
             do
             not
             without
             
             warrant
             reject
             them
             ;
             but
             howsoever
             it
             is
             sufficient
             for
             my
             purpose
             ,
             that
             you
             grant
             that
             my
             Bible
             as
             the
             Word
             of
             God
             ,
             and
             these
             Books
             in
             it
             Canonical
             ,
             and
             I
             can
             know
             this
             without
             the
             Churches
             Authority
             .
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             Do
             not
             make
             too
             much
             haste
             ,
             if
             I
             do
             grant
             that
             these
             Books
             in
             the
             Original
             Language
             are
             the
             Word
             of
             God
             ,
             yet
             yours
             is
             but
             a
             Translation
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Is
             it
             rightly
             translated
             for
             the
             substance
             ,
             or
             is
             it
             not
             ?
             What
             Bible
             is
             that
             which
             you
             have
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             A
             Latin
             Bible
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Is
             that
             the
             Word
             of
             God
             ,
             and
             rightly
             translated
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             Yes
             ,
             the
             Council
             of
             Trent
             hath
             decreed
             so
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Then
             I
             pray
             you
             let
             us
             try
             this
             Experiment
             ;
             do
             you
             pick
             out
             any
             20.
             verses
             in
             several
             parts
             of
             the
             Bible
             ,
             and
             turn
             them
             into
             English
             out
             of
             your
             Bible
             .
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             The
             motion
             is
             fair
             ,
             I
             will
             do
             it
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             I
             do
             not
             finde
             any
             substantial
             difference
             in
             all
             these
             places
             between
             your
             Translation
             and
             mine
             ,
             the
             difference
             is
             wholly
             in
             words
             ,
             not
             at
             all
             in
             sense
             ;
             so
             now
             ,
             I
             thank
             you
             for
             this
             occasion
             ,
             for
             I
             have
             heard
             some
             of
             your
             Priests
             ranting
             highly
             against
             our
             Translation
             ,
             and
             now
             
             I
             see
             they
             have
             no
             cause
             for
             it
             .
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             If
             all
             this
             were
             over
             ,
             yet
             the
             Scripture
             is
             not
             a
             sufficient
             Rule
             to
             guide
             you
             to
             Heaven
             of
             it self
             without
             Tradition
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Why
             so
             I
             beseech
             you
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             Because
             you
             are
             also
             commanded
             there
             to
             hold
             the
             Tradition
             ,
             true
             in
             your
             Bible
             to
             2
             Thes.
             2.
             15.
             
             Hold
             the
             Traditions
             which
             ye
             have
             been
             taught
             ,
             whether
             by
             Word
             or
             Epistle
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             How
             do
             you
             prove
             that
             he
             speaks
             of
             such
             Traditions
             as
             were
             not
             written
             in
             the
             Scripture
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             Because
             he
             so
             plainly
             distinguisheth
             between
             what
             he
             taught
             them
             by
             word
             ,
             and
             what
             he
             taught
             them
             by
             Epistle
             or
             Writing
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             That
             may
             be
             true
             that
             he
             speaks
             of
             some
             things
             of
             which
             he
             had
             not
             written
             to
             them
             ,
             and
             yet
             they
             might
             be
             written
             by
             him
             to
             others
             ,
             or
             by
             others
             ,
             at
             least
             after
             that
             time
             ;
             but
             besides
             ,
             notwithstanding
             this
             distinction
             between
             Word
             and
             Epistle
             ,
             divers
             of
             your
             own
             Authors
             affirm
             ,
             that
             Tradition
             is
             perfect
             ,
             and
             that
             St.
             Paul
             taught
             all
             things
             necessary
             by
             word
             of
             mouth
             ;
             and
             why
             may
             not
             I
             as
             well
             say
             ,
             that
             he
             taught
             all
             by
             Epistle
             ?
             But
             I
             pray
             you
             ,
             What
             do
             you
             mean
             by
             these
             Traditions
             ?
          
        
         
           
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             I
             mean
             all
             the
             Traditions
             which
             either
             he
             ,
             or
             any
             other
             Apostles
             did
             deliver
             :
             all
             these
             you
             are
             bound
             to
             receive
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             I
             will
             not
             quarrel
             with
             you
             for
             that
             ,
             bring
             me
             solid
             proofs
             of
             any
             of
             your
             unwritten
             Traditions
             ,
             that
             they
             did
             indeed
             come
             from
             the
             Apostles
             ,
             I
             promise
             you
             I
             will
             joyfully
             receive
             them
             ;
             But
             I
             pray
             you
             ,
             what
             are
             these
             Traditions
             you
             speak
             of
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             Such
             as
             these
             ,
             the
             Doctrine
             of
             Purgatory
             ,
             Invocation
             of
             Saints
             ,
             of
             the
             Popes
             Supremacy
             ,
             of
             the
             single
             life
             of
             Priests
             ,
             of
             the
             Fasts
             of
             the
             Church
             ,
             private
             Masses
             ,
             Worship
             of
             Images
             ,
             &c.
             
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             And
             do
             you
             think
             ,
             that
             all
             that
             did
             not
             believe
             and
             receive
             these
             Traditions
             shall
             be
             damned
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             No
             ,
             by
             no
             means
             ,
             for
             ,
             then
             I
             should
             condemn
             many
             of
             the
             Holy
             Fathers
             and
             Martyrs
             who
             differed
             from
             us
             at
             least
             in
             some
             of
             these
             Points
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Then
             it
             is
             not
             necessary
             to
             salvation
             to
             receive
             these
             Traditions
             ;
             and
             the
             Scripture
             may
             be
             sufficient
             without
             them
             :
             But
             further
             ,
             These
             unwritten
             Traditions
             you
             talk
             of
             ,
             I
             beseech
             you
             how
             came
             you
             to
             discover
             them
             ,
             and
             discern
             the
             true
             from
             the
             false
             ?
          
        
         
           
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             
               I
               altogether
               approve
               of
            
             Bellarmin
             
               's
               Rule
               ,
               which
               is
               this
               ,
            
             That
             (
             
               saith
               he
            
             )
             is
             a
             true
             Tradition
             ,
             which
             all
             former
             Doctors
             have
             successively
             in
             their
             several
             Ages
             acknowledged
             to
             come
             from
             the
             Apostles
             ,
             and
             by
             their
             Doctrine
             or
             Practices
             have
             approved
             ,
             and
             which
             the
             Universal
             Church
             owneth
             as
             such
             ;
             and
             the
             reason
             is
             ,
             because
             the
             Universal
             Church
             cannot
             erre
             *
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             I
             see
             all
             depends
             upon
             this
             Foundation
             ,
             that
             the
             Catholick
             Church
             (
             in
             your
             sense
             )
             cannot
             erre
             ;
             which
             ,
             having
             disproved
             ,
             I
             need
             not
             trouble
             my self
             further
             :
             But
             to
             wave
             that
             ,
             How
             I
             pray
             you
             do
             you
             know
             what
             former
             Doctors
             have
             successively
             owned
             by
             word
             or
             practice
             ?
             I
             presume
             none
             of
             your
             Popes
             have
             so
             good
             a
             memory
             as
             to
             remember
             all
             that
             hath
             been
             said
             or
             done
             in
             former
             Ages
             ,
             though
             in
             my
             opinion
             when
             your
             inventions
             were
             upon
             the
             wheel
             ,
             and
             you
             did
             confer
             upon
             the
             Pope
             an
             infallible
             judgment
             ,
             you
             should
             have
             given
             him
             also
             an
             all-sufficient
             memory
             ,
             and
             then
             you
             had
             done
             your
             work
             .
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             No
             Sir
             ,
             we
             pretend
             no
             such
             thing
             :
             but
             we
             know
             this
             from
             the
             Writings
             which
             the
             
             Doctors
             have
             left
             .
             It
             is
             true
             ,
             Bellarmine
             mentions
             another
             rule
             ,
             which
             is
             
               the
               continual
               usage
               of
               the
               Church
               in
               all
               ages
            
             ;
             but
             (
             to
             deal
             candidly
             with
             you
             )
             I
             cannot
             know
             what
             their
             use
             was
             ,
             but
             by
             their
             Writings
             ;
             so
             all
             must
             come
             to
             that
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             First
             ,
             then
             I
             note
             ,
             you
             forsake
             your
             cause
             ,
             and
             it
             seems
             a
             writing
             is
             now
             made
             a
             rule
             for
             your
             unwritten
             Traditions
             ;
             if
             it
             may
             be
             so
             ,
             let
             me
             beg
             your
             favourable
             opinion
             of
             the
             Apostles
             writings
             ;
             Besides
             ,
             those
             Writers
             which
             record
             these
             Traditions
             ,
             were
             they
             infallible
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             No
             ,
             we
             do
             not
             hold
             any
             particular
             Writers
             Infallible
             ,
             especially
             not
             in
             matters
             of
             Fact
             ,
             such
             as
             reporting
             a
             Tradition
             or
             use
             of
             the
             Church
             undoubtedly
             is
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Then
             they
             might
             mistake
             false
             Traditions
             for
             true
             :
             Besides
             ,
             how
             can
             I
             tell
             what
             the
             Antient
             Doctors
             did
             agree
             in
             ,
             since
             most
             of
             them
             never
             wrote
             ;
             and
             many
             of
             their
             writings
             are
             lost
             ;
             and
             yet
             all
             of
             them
             had
             equal
             liberty
             of
             voting
             in
             this
             case
             ?
             besides
             ,
             I
             have
             heard
             that
             divers
             of
             the
             Antient
             Fathers
             did
             report
             several
             things
             to
             be
             Apostolical
             Traditions
             which
             your
             Church
             now
             rejecteth
             ,
             as
             
               that
               Infants
               should
               receive
               the
               Communion
               ,
               and
               that
               Christ
               should
               reign
               on
               earth
               a
               thousand
               years
               ,
            
             and
             many
             others
             :
             I
             am
             
             told
             also
             ,
             that
             your
             great
             Baronius
             ,
             writing
             concerning
             the
             Apostles
             ,
             professeth
             ,
             
               He
               despairs
               to
               find
               out
               the
               truth
               ,
               even
               in
               those
               matters
               which
               true
               Writers
               have
               recorded
               ;
               because
               there
               was
               nothing
               which
               remained
               sincere
               and
               incorrupted
               :
            
             Is
             it
             so
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             You
             shall
             find
             me
             ingenuous
             ;
             it
             is
             so
             ,
             Baronius
             saith
             it
             ,
             Anno
             44.
             sect
             .
             42.
             
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Then
             truly
             I
             shall
             bid
             Tradition
             (
             in
             your
             sense
             )
             good
             night
             :
             For
             as
             to
             your
             Traditions
             I
             see
             there
             is
             no
             certainty
             in
             them
             .
             
               Shall
               I
               forsake
               the
               certain
               and
               acknowledged
               verity
               of
               the
               Scripture
               for
               such
               trash
               ?
            
             God
             forbid
             .
          
        
         
           Again
           ,
           I
           pray
           you
           tell
           me
           ,
           doth
           not
           every
           wise
           man
           that
           makes
           any
           thing
           ,
           make
           it
           sufficient
           for
           its
           end
           ?
           If
           you
           build
           an
           house
           to
           live
           in
           ,
           will
           not
           you
           make
           it
           sufficient
           for
           that
           end
           ?
           If
           a
           man
           makes
           a
           Sword
           to
           cut
           with
           ,
           a
           Coat
           of
           Male
           to
           defend
           him
           ,
           &c.
           is
           he
           not
           a
           fool
           if
           he
           doth
           not
           ,
           if
           he
           can
           ,
           make
           them
           sufficient
           for
           their
           end
           and
           use
           ?
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             That
             must
             needs
             be
             granted
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             And
             was
             not
             our
             Instruction
             and
             Salvation
             the
             end
             for
             which
             God
             wrote
             the
             Scripture
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             How
             do
             you
             prove
             that
             it
             was
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             God
             himself
             tells
             me
             so
             ,
             Iohn
             20.
             31.
             
             These
             things
             are
             written
             that
             you
             
             may
             believe
             that
             Iesus
             is
             the
             Christ
             ,
             the
             Son
             of
             God
             ,
             and
             that
             believing
             you
             might
             have
             life
             through
             his
             Name
             .
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             S.
             John
             speaks
             there
             of
             Miracles
             ,
             not
             of
             doctrines
             ,
             and
             so
             that
             is
             nothing
             to
             the
             purpose
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             He
             speaks
             of
             Miracles
             ,
             which
             were
             done
             in
             confirmation
             of
             the
             Doctrine
             of
             Christ
             ,
             and
             so
             the
             Doctrine
             is
             not
             to
             be
             excluded
             :
             besides
             ,
             I
             suppose
             you
             will
             not
             say
             that
             S.
             Iohn
             wrote
             the
             Doctrines
             of
             Christ
             for
             one
             end
             ,
             and
             the
             Miracles
             for
             another
             :
             Moreover
             ,
             it
             plainly
             appears
             ,
             both
             that
             this
             was
             the
             end
             for
             which
             the
             Scripture
             was
             written
             ,
             and
             that
             it
             is
             sufficient
             for
             its
             end
             ,
             from
             that
             2
             Tim.
             3.
             15
             ,
             16
             ,
             17.
             he
             saith
             expresly
             ,
             
               The
               Scriptures
               are
               able
               to
               make
               a
               man
               of
               God
               wise
               unto
               salvation
               .
            
             *
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             Well
             ,
             but
             if
             all
             these
             things
             be
             so
             ,
             yet
             since
             the
             Scripture
             is
             dark
             and
             doubtful
             ,
             and
             you
             can
             never
             apprehend
             the
             true
             meaning
             of
             it
             but
             from
             the
             Church
             ,
             you
             are
             never
             the
             nearer
             ;
             and
             the
             Scripture
             is
             not
             a
             convenient
             judge
             of
             Controversies
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Tell
             me
             I
             pray
             ,
             doth
             your
             Church
             understand
             the
             true
             meaning
             of
             the
             Scripture
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             Yes
             doubtless
             ,
             because
             she
             hath
             the
             Spirit
             of
             God.
             
          
        
         
           
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Then
             certainly
             she
             is
             most
             deeply
             guilty
             of
             uncharitableness
             ,
             or
             envy
             ,
             or
             cruelty
             to
             souls
             ,
             that
             she
             doth
             not
             put
             forth
             a
             clear
             and
             infallible
             Comment
             upon
             the
             whole
             Scripture
             ,
             but
             still
             suffers
             the
             whole
             world
             to
             live
             in
             contention
             about
             the
             true
             meaning
             of
             hundreds
             of
             Texts
             of
             Scripture
             .
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             She
             forbears
             that
             ,
             for
             reasons
             best
             known
             to
             her self
             :
             But
             this
             is
             not
             much
             to
             the
             purpose
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Whereas
             you
             pretend
             your
             Church
             certainly
             knows
             the
             true
             sense
             of
             the
             Scripture
             ,
             and
             this
             Church
             you
             say
             is
             the
             Pope
             ,
             or
             a
             Council
             ,
             and
             if
             these
             be
             infallible
             ,
             you
             say
             they
             are
             so
             in
             their
             Decrees
             :
             If
             this
             be
             so
             ,
             how
             comes
             it
             to
             pass
             that
             none
             do
             more
             grosly
             mistake
             ,
             and
             mis-apply
             Scripture
             than
             divers
             of
             your
             Popes
             and
             councils
             have
             done
             ,
             even
             in
             their
             Decrees
             ,
             and
             decretal
             Epistles
             (
             which
             you
             reverence
             as
             the
             Gospel
             )
             ?
             Your
             Pope
             Nicholas
             the
             first
             ,
             proves
             his
             Supremacy
             from
             that
             Text
             ,
             
               Arise
               Peter
               kill
               and
               eat
            
             :
             small
             encouragement
             to
             us
             to
             become
             his
             sheep
             ,
             if
             he
             so
             use
             them
             ;
             and
             from
             hence
             ,
             that
             
               Peter
               drew
               to
               the
               shore
               his
               net
               full
               of
               Fishes
               ,
            
             your
             Pope
             Boniface
             the
             eighth
             proves
             it
             from
             
               Gen.
               1.
               1.
               
               In
               the
               beginning
               God
               created
               Heaven
               and
               Earth
               ,
               
               therefore
               the
               Pope
               hath
               power
               in
               Temporals
               and
               Spirituals
               :
               and
               this
            
             (
             saith
             he
             )
             
               you
               must
               hold
               ,
               unless
               with
               the
               Manichees
               you
               hold
               two
               principles
               :
            
             And
             your
             councils
             are
             not
             more
             happy
             Expositors
             .
             The
             council
             of
             Lateran
             proves
             the
             Popes
             power
             from
             Psa.
             72.
             (
             which
             speaks
             of
             Solomon
             and
             Christ
             )
             
               All
               Kings
               shall
               fall
               down
               before
               him
               .
            
             The
             second
             council
             of
             Nice
             alledges
             these
             Scriptures
             for
             the
             Worship
             of
             Images
             ,
             that
             
               God
               created
               man
               in
               his
               own
               Image
               ,
            
             Gen.
             1.
             
             
               Let
               me
               see
               thy
               countenance
            
             ,
             Cant.
             2.
             
             
               No
               man
               when
               he
               hath
               lighted
               a
               Candle
               covereth
               it
               under
               a
               vessel
               ,
            
             Luk.
             8.
             16.
             
             In
             my
             opinion
             they
             spoke
             like
             a
             council
             ,
             expecting
             that
             the
             world
             should
             receive
             their
             Decrees
             ,
             not
             for
             any
             solidity
             of
             Argument
             (
             that
             had
             been
             pedantick
             )
             but
             meerly
             for
             the
             Churches
             Majesty
             and
             Authority
             .
             Nay
             ,
             the
             jest
             is
             ,
             when
             their
             Adversaries
             had
             taken
             notice
             of
             these
             absurd
             impertinencies
             ,
             up
             steps
             
               Pater
               Noster
            
             ,
             Pope
             Adrian
             ,
             and
             he
             saith
             ,
             he
             will
             maintain
             it
             (
             in
             spite
             of
             fate
             )
             that
             they
             alledged
             them
             rightly
             and
             excellently
             :
             So
             here
             we
             have
             a
             Pope
             and
             council
             joyning
             together
             (
             and
             therefore
             undoubtedly
             infallible
             )
             in
             these
             Expositions
             .
             Nay
             ,
             the
             council
             of
             Trent
             it self
             (
             when
             one
             would
             expect
             they
             should
             have
             grown
             wiser
             ,
             though
             not
             better
             )
             
             prove
             the
             unequal
             power
             of
             Popes
             ,
             Bishops
             ,
             and
             Priests
             ,
             from
             
               Rom.
               13.
               1.
               
               The
               powers
               that
               be
               are
               ordained
               of
               God
               ;
               that
               is
               ,
               digested
               into
               order
               .
            
             I
             hope
             ere
             you
             have
             done
             ,
             you
             will
             put
             forth
             an
             entire
             Comment
             upon
             the
             whole
             Bible
             ,
             which
             I
             assure
             you
             will
             be
             the
             rarest
             book
             that
             ever
             saw
             the
             light
             .
             But
             further
             ,
             I
             desire
             to
             know
             of
             you
             how
             your
             Church
             comes
             to
             have
             this
             true
             and
             certain
             sense
             of
             Scripture
             ;
             hath
             she
             it
             by
             Revelation
             or
             Inspiration
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             No
             ,
             we
             pretend
             to
             no
             such
             thing
             ;
             but
             she
             comes
             to
             know
             it
             by
             the
             diligent
             use
             of
             means
             ,
             by
             prayer
             ,
             by
             reading
             ,
             and
             comparing
             Scripture
             ,
             by
             consulting
             ancient
             Interpreters
             ,
             Analogy
             of
             Faith
             ,
             the
             coherence
             ,
             &c.
             and
             even
             the
             Pope
             himself
             ,
             when
             he
             set
             forth
             his
             Translation
             of
             the
             Bible
             ,
             He
             professes
             to
             all
             the
             world
             ,
             that
             he
             did
             it
             in
             the
             very
             same
             manner
             ,
             and
             by
             the
             same
             helps
             ,
             that
             other
             Translators
             do
             ;
             that
             is
             ,
             by
             advising
             with
             learned
             Men
             ,
             and
             consulting
             Antient
             Copies
             ,
             and
             the
             like
             *
             .
          
        
         
           
           
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             Very
             good
             ,
             Then
             I
             pray
             you
             tell
             me
             why
             a
             Protestant
             Minister
             (
             being
             oft
             times
             both
             a
             learneder
             and
             better
             man
             than
             the
             Pope
             )
             may
             not
             as
             certainly
             hit
             upon
             the
             true
             sense
             of
             the
             Scripture
             as
             the
             Pope
             himself
             .
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             The
             reason
             is
             plain
             ,
             because
             the
             Pope
             is
             guided
             by
             the
             infallible
             assistance
             of
             Gods
             Spirit
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             You
             ought
             not
             to
             rant
             at
             this
             height
             ,
             until
             you
             have
             solidly
             answered
             
             what
             our
             Divines
             have
             wrote
             against
             this
             Infallibility
             .
             And
             I
             heard
             before
             the
             woful
             weakness
             of
             your
             arguments
             ;
             for
             it
             is
             to
             me
             the
             vainest
             thing
             in
             the
             world
             to
             pretend
             a
             promise
             of
             the
             Spirit
             of
             God
             infallibly
             to
             guide
             such
             men
             ,
             as
             (
             if
             the
             Scripture
             be
             true
             )
             have
             not
             the
             Spirit
             of
             Christ
             in
             them
             ,
             being
             (
             as
             you
             confess
             many
             of
             your
             Popes
             and
             Bishops
             were
             )
             
               sensual
               ,
               not
               having
               the
               Spirit
               :
            
             and
             having
             apparently
             no
             other
             spirit
             in
             them
             ,
             but
             the
             spirit
             of
             the
             world
             ,
             the
             spirit
             that
             lusteth
             to
             envy
             and
             all
             wickedness
             :
             But
             since
             you
             pretend
             the
             Scripture
             is
             so
             dark
             ,
             I
             pray
             you
             tell
             me
             ,
             what
             was
             the
             end
             for
             which
             God
             designed
             the
             Scripture
             ?
             Sure
             I
             think
             it
             was
             for
             our
             understanding
             ;
             my
             Bible
             tells
             me
             ,
             that
             
               whatsoever
               things
               were
               written
               aforetime
               ,
               were
               written
               for
               our
               learning
               ,
               Rom.
            
             15.
             4
             
             But
             if
             you
             say
             true
             ,
             it
             seems
             God
             meant
             only
             to
             put
             forth
             riddles
             :
             Gods
             Law
             was
             designed
             by
             him
             for
             
               a
               light
               ,
               and
               that
               even
               to
               the
               simple
               ,
            
             Psal.
             19.
             7
             ,
             8
             ,
             9.
             and
             119
             ,
             105.
             
             And
             in
             a
             word
             ,
             the
             Gospel
             is
             so
             clear
             ,
             that
             Saint
             Paul
             pronounceth
             ,
             
               it
               is
               hid
               from
               none
               but
               them
               that
               perish
               ,
            
             2
             Cor.
             4.
             3
             ,
             4.
             
             And
             Saint
             Luke
             wrote
             his
             Gospel
             ,
             that
             Theophilus
             (
             and
             with
             him
             other
             Christians
             )
             
               might
               know
               the
               certainty
               of
               those
               things
               
               wherein
               they
               had
               been
               instructed
               ,
            
             Luke
             1.
             4.
             and
             generally
             every
             discreet
             man
             that
             writes
             a
             Book
             ,
             writes
             it
             so
             ,
             as
             it
             may
             be
             understood
             ;
             especially
             if
             it
             be
             for
             the
             benefit
             of
             the
             ignorant
             ,
             as
             well
             as
             the
             learned
             (
             which
             the
             Scripture
             assuredly
             was
             .
             )
             Tell
             me
             then
             I
             pray
             you
             ,
             why
             should
             God
             write
             his
             mind
             so
             darkly
             and
             doubtfully
             as
             you
             know
             whose
             Oracles
             are
             said
             to
             be
             delivered
             ?
             was
             it
             because
             God
             could
             not
             write
             plainer
             (
             and
             wanted
             the
             gift
             of
             utterance
             )
             or
             because
             he
             would
             not
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             Notwithstanding
             all
             this
             ,
             it
             is
             certain
             ,
             the
             Scripture
             is
             full
             of
             obscure
             places
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             I
             do
             not
             deny
             this
             :
             but
             those
             things
             which
             are
             obscurely
             delivered
             in
             one
             place
             ,
             are
             more
             clearly
             delivered
             in
             another
             ;
             and
             those
             dark
             places
             generally
             are
             about
             Prophecies
             ,
             and
             such
             other
             things
             ;
             the
             knowledge
             of
             which
             is
             not
             necessary
             to
             salvation
             ,
             But
             for
             necessaries
             the
             Scripture
             is
             plain
             ,
             and
             I
             am
             told
             ,
             that
             divers
             of
             your
             Authors
             acknowledge
             so
             much
             :
             Is
             that
             true
             ?
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             
               I
               confess
            
             Costerus
             
               hath
               this
               expression
            
             ,
             that
             things
             which
             are
             necessary
             to
             be
             known
             by
             all
             Christians
             ,
             are
             plainly
             and
             clearly
             delivered
             in
             the
             writings
             of
             the
             
             Apostles
             ,
             
               and
               some
               others
               of
               our
               Doctors
               say
               as
               much
            
             *
             
               *
               See
               nullity
               of
               Rom.
               faith
               ,
               
                 chap.
                 7.
                 sect
              
               .
               4.
               
            
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             It
             could
             be
             nothing
             but
             the
             evidence
             of
             the
             truth
             which
             forced
             such
             an
             acknowledgment
             from
             its
             greatest
             Adversaries
             ,
             therefore
             let
             this
             go
             ,
             and
             let
             me
             hear
             what
             further
             you
             have
             to
             say
             against
             our
             Religion
             .
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             I
             find
             you
             are
             an
             obstinate
             Heretick
             ,
             and
             setled
             upon
             the
             lees
             ,
             and
             therefore
             it
             will
             be
             needless
             to
             discourse
             further
             with
             you
             ;
             if
             any
             thing
             could
             have
             convinced
             you
             ,
             surely
             the
             Arguments
             I
             have
             offered
             would
             have
             done
             it
             ;
             for
             I
             assure
             you
             I
             have
             pickt
             out
             the
             strength
             and
             marrow
             of
             the
             Catholick
             Cause
             in
             the
             Points
             we
             have
             discoursed
             .
             And
             since
             I
             see
             you
             turn
             a
             deaf
             ear
             to
             my
             counsel
             ,
             I
             shall
             give
             you
             over
             as
             incorrigible
             .
          
        
         
           
             Prot.
             
          
           
             You
             see
             I
             have
             heard
             you
             with
             great
             patience
             ,
             and
             given
             you
             all
             the
             freedom
             you
             could
             desire
             ;
             now
             I
             have
             one
             request
             to
             you
             ,
             that
             you
             would
             allow
             me
             the
             same
             priviledge
             ,
             with
             patience
             to
             hear
             ,
             and
             ,
             if
             you
             can
             ,
             answer
             what
             I
             shall
             object
             against
             your
             Religion
             .
          
        
         
           
             Pop.
             
          
           
             With
             a
             very
             good
             will
             ,
             I
             'le
             meet
             you
             here
             to
             morrow
             at
             this
             time
             ,
             so
             at
             present
             adieu
             .
          
        
         
           
           
             The
             SECOND
             CONFERENCE
             .
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               WEll
               met
               Sir
               ,
               I
               see
               you
               are
               as
               good
               as
               your
               word
               ,
               and
               I
               hope
               you
               will
               allow
               me
               as
               much
               freedom
               and
               patience
               as
               I
               did
               you
               .
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               I
               shall
               willingly
               do
               it
               ,
               therefore
               speak
               freely
               ,
               and
               so
               will
               I
               ,
               and
               if
               truth
               be
               on
               your
               side
               let
               it
               prevail
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               I
               shall
               divide
               my
               discourse
               into
               two
               Parts
               .
            
             
               1.
               
               Some
               General
               Considerations
               ,
               which
               indeed
               do
               very
               much
               set
               me
               against
               your
               Religion
               .
            
             
               2.
               
               I
               shall
               examine
               the
               grounds
               of
               your
               Principal
               Points
               of
               Doctrine
               ;
               for
               to
               meddle
               with
               all
               ,
               will
               be
               needless
               :
               If
               your
               Pillars
               fall
               the
               rest
               cannot
               stand
               .
               For
               the
               first
               ,
               there
               are
               several
               weighty
               Considerations
               against
               your
               Religion
               ;
               I
               shall
               give
               you
               them
               in
               order
               .
               The
               first
               General
               Consideration
               is
               this
               ;
            
             
               1.
               
               That
               your
               Church
               declines
               all
               
               Judgment
               but
               her
               own
               ,
               and
               makes
               her self
               Judge
               in
               her
               own
               Cause
               ;
               you
               do
               not
               allow
               Scripture
               to
               be
               Judge
               ,
               nor
               the
               Antient
               Fathers
               (
               for
               all
               your
               talk
               of
               Antiquity
               )
               nor
               indeed
               any
               but
               your selves
               ,
               the
               Pope
               ,
               or
               a
               Council
               of
               your
               own
               ,
               and
               your
               Church
               it
               seems
               must
               determine
               ,
               whether
               she
               be
               a
               true
               Church
               or
               no
               ,
               and
               whether
               she
               be
               pure
               or
               corrupted
               ,
               or
               whether
               she
               be
               Infallible
               or
               no
               ;
               Is
               this
               so
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               I
               confess
               this
               is
               our
               Doctrine
               ,
               and
               I
               think
               grounded
               upon
               Reason
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               You
               speak
               against
               the
               common
               sense
               of
               all
               men
               .
               In
               all
               Controversies
               or
               Differences
               between
               men
               and
               men
               ,
               we
               generally
               suspect
               that
               party
               who
               will
               submit
               to
               no
               judgment
               but
               his
               own
               ;
               and
               he
               who
               is
               willing
               to
               refer
               himself
               to
               any
               third
               indifferent
               party
               ,
               is
               generally
               presumed
               to
               have
               the
               best
               cause
               ;
               and
               th●s
               is
               our
               case
               ,
               Protestants
               do
               not
               make
               themselves
               and
               their
               own
               Church
               the
               only
               Judge
               (
               though
               they
               might
               as
               justly
               and
               reasonably
               do
               it
               as
               you
               )
               but
               they
               are
               very
               willing
               to
               submit
               to
               other
               Judges
               ,
               they
               refer
               themselves
               to
               be
               judged
               by
               the
               Scripture
               ,
               which
               is
               acknowledged
               to
               be
               a
               most
               indifferent
               Judge
               ;
               If
               that
               do
               not
               please
               you
               ,
               they
               refer
               themselves
               to
               the
               Fathers
               for
               the
               first
               six
               hundred
               
               years
               ,
               till
               your
               abominations
               had
               leavened
               the
               world
               ,
               according
               to
               what
               was
               foretold
               ,
               Rev.
               13.
               8.
               
            
             
               II.
               My
               second
               consideration
               is
               this
               ;
               You
               do
               not
               only
               decline
               the
               Scriptures
               judgment
               ,
               but
               you
               infinitely
               disparage
               and
               vilifie
               it
               .
               I
               meet
               with
               several
               passages
               quoted
               out
               of
               your
               Authors
               to
               that
               purpose
               .
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               Possibly
               you
               may
               out
               of
               some
               inconsiderable
               ones
               ,
               but
               not
               out
               of
               any
               of
               note
               and
               name
               in
               our
               Church
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               Yes
               ,
               out
               of
               your
               prime
               Authors
               ,
               I
               read
               that
               Cardinal
               Hosius
               in
               his
               
                 Advertisement
                 to
                 King
                 Sigismund
              
               hath
               this
               expression
               ,
               
                 If
                 they
              
               (
               that
               is
               ,
               the
               Hereticks
               )
               
                 say
                 ,
                 It
                 is
                 written
                 ,
                 that
                 is
                 the
                 voice
                 of
                 the
                 Devil
                 ,
                 speaking
                 in
                 his
                 members
              
               a
               .
               But
               that
               it
               is
               below
               a
               Cardinal
               to
               read
               the
               Bible
               ,
               he
               would
               have
               found
               the
               words
               also
               in
               Christs
               mouth
               .
               I
               read
               that
               Costerus
               calls
               the
               Scripture
               by
               way
               of
               contempt
               
                 Paper
                 and
                 Parchment
                 .
                 God
              
               (
               saith
               he
               )
               
                 would
                 no●
                 have
                 his
                 Church
              
               (
               by
               which
               always
               understand
               the
               Papists
               themselves
               )
               
                 now
                 depend
                 upon
                 Paper
                 and
                 Parchment
                 ,
                 as
              
               Moses
               
                 made
                 the
                 carnal
              
               Israelites
               :
               And
               again
               ,
               
                 That
                 which
                 is
                 written
                 in
                 the
                 heart
                 of
                 the
                 Church
                 ,
                 doth
                 by
                 many
                 degrees
                 
                 excel
                 the
                 Scriptures
                 :
                 First
                 ,
                 because
                 that
                 was
                 written
                 by
                 the
                 finger
                 of
                 God
                 ,
                 but
                 this
                 by
                 the
                 Apostles
              
               a
               ,
               as
               if
               the
               Writings
               of
               the
               Apostles
               were
               only
               a
               device
               of
               man.
               I
               read
               that
               Cardinal
               Pool
               writing
               to
               Henry
               the
               Eighth
               ,
               saith
               thus
               ,
               
                 What
                 an
                 absurd
                 thing
                 is
                 this
                 ,
                 that
                 thou
                 dost
                 attribute
                 more
                 authority
                 to
                 the
                 Scripture
                 than
                 to
                 the
                 Church
                 ,
                 since
                 the
                 Scripture
                 hath
                 no
                 authority
                 but
                 for
                 the
                 decree
                 of
                 the
                 Church
              
               b
               ?
               (
               He
               means
               the
               Roman
               Church
               .
               )
               I
               see
               we
               are
               highly
               concerned
               to
               please
               your
               Church
               ,
               else
               we
               are
               like
               to
               have
               no
               Scriptures
               .
               I
               read
               that
               Pighius
               saith
               ,
               
                 The
                 Apostles
                 did
                 never
                 intend
                 to
                 subject
                 our
                 faith
                 to
                 their
                 writings
                 ,
                 but
                 rather
                 their
                 writings
                 to
                 our
                 faith
              
               c
               .
               And
               afterward
               he
               saith
               ,
               
                 The
                 Scriptures
                 are
                 (
                 as
                 one
                 said
                 ,
                 not
                 more
                 pleasantly
                 than
                 truly
                 )
                 a
                 nose
                 of
                 wax
                 which
                 suffers
                 it self
                 to
                 be
                 drawn
                 hither
                 or
                 thither
                 ,
                 as
                 a
                 man
                 pleaseth
              
               d
               .
               I
               read
               that
               
                 your
                 Bullenger
              
               saith
               ;
               
                 The
                 Scripture
                 is
                 the
                 Daughter
                 ,
                 the
                 Church
                 the
                 Mother
                 ,
                 which
                 gives
                 being
                 and
                 sufficiency
                 to
                 her
                 she
                 begets
                 .
              
               (
               No
               wonder
               then
               ,
               the
               Church
               makes
               bold
               with
               the
               Scripture
               to
               add
               ,
               or
               
               alter
               ,
               or
               dispense
               with
               it
               .
               We
               all
               know
               the
               Mother
               may
               correct
               the
               Daughter
               .
               )
               I
               confess
               ,
               when
               I
               read
               those
               passages
               produced
               by
               our
               Writers
               ,
               I
               suspected
               they
               wronged
               them
               .
               Are
               these
               things
               true
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               I
               acknowledge
               it
               ,
               and
               it
               is
               a
               vain
               thing
               for
               me
               to
               deny
               it
               ,
               for
               the
               Books
               and
               those
               passages
               in
               them
               are
               extant
               under
               their
               own
               hands
               :
               And
               I
               must
               confess
               ,
               these
               Authors
               are
               as
               considerable
               and
               approved
               as
               any
               we
               have
               .
               But
               you
               ought
               to
               put
               a
               favourable
               sense
               upon
               them
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               I
               would
               not
               strain
               them
               ,
               nor
               make
               them
               worse
               than
               they
               are
               .
               Take
               them
               as
               you
               will
               ,
               they
               are
               abominable
               expressions
               ,
               and
               (
               to
               me
               )
               a
               great
               evidence
               ,
               that
               the
               Scripture
               is
               no
               friend
               to
               your
               Church
               .
               And
               I
               conclude
               this
               to
               be
               one
               accomplishment
               of
               what
               Christ
               hath
               said
               ,
               
                 Every
                 one
                 that
                 doth
                 evil
                 hateth
                 the
                 light
                 ,
                 neither
                 cometh
                 to
                 the
                 light
                 ,
                 lest
                 his
                 deeds
                 should
                 be
                 reproved
                 ,
              
               John
               3.
               20.
               
               And
               if
               this
               be
               the
               spirit
               by
               which
               your
               Church
               is
               guided
               ,
               I
               am
               sure
               it
               is
               not
               the
               Spirit
               of
               God
               and
               of
               Truth
               ;
               for
               that
               teacheth
               men
               reverence
               and
               love
               to
               the
               Scriptures
               :
               You
               seem
               to
               do
               like
               Herod
               ,
               who
               being
               convinced
               that
               he
               was
               not
               of
               the
               Royal
               race
               of
               the
               Iews
               ,
               did
               burn
               their
               Genealogies
               
               and
               Records
               ,
               that
               his
               false
               pretences
               might
               not
               be
               confuted
               by
               them
               .
               And
               just
               so
               do
               you
               endeavour
               to
               do
               by
               the
               Scriptures
               :
            
             
               III.
               My
               third
               Consideration
               against
               your
               Religion
               is
               this
               ;
               That
               your
               Cause
               is
               such
               as
               dares
               not
               abide
               tryal
               :
               This
               is
               the
               honour
               and
               happiness
               of
               our
               Religion
               ;
               We
               are
               allowed
               to
               examine
               all
               that
               our
               Ministers
               say
               ,
               and
               we
               have
               a
               Rule
               (
               which
               we
               may
               peruse
               )
               to
               try
               them
               by
               ,
               viz.
               the
               holy
               Scriptures
               ,
               which
               you
               dare
               not
               suffer
               your
               people
               to
               read
               .
               And
               this
               I
               take
               to
               be
               a
               secret
               confession
               of
               your
               guilt
               ;
               and
               I
               am
               told
               your
               
                 Alphonsus
                 de
                 Castro
              
               saith
               ,
               
                 That
                 from
                 the
                 reading
                 of
                 the
                 Scripture
                 all
                 Heresies
                 come
              
               *
               .
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               I
               think
               your
               experience
               hath
               justified
               that
               expression
               ,
               You
               see
               what
               you
               get
               by
               the
               reading
               of
               the
               Scriptures
               ,
               even
               this
               ,
               that
               you
               are
               crumbled
               into
               a
               thousand
               Sects
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               Our
               Saviour
               was
               not
               of
               your
               mind
               ,
               for
               he
               thought
               not
               acquaintance
               with
               ,
               but
               ignorance
               of
               the
               Scriptures
               was
               the
               cause
               of
               Error
               ;
               
                 Ye
                 erre
                 ,
                 not
                 knowing
                 the
                 Scriptures
                 ,
              
               Mat.
               22.
               29.
               
               Nor
               did
               he
               only
               allow
               ,
               but
               command
               the
               Iews
               to
               
                 search
                 the
                 Scriptures
              
               ,
               without
               any
               fear
               of
               
               this
               inconvenience
               ,
               Iohn
               5.
               39.
               
               Had
               S.
               Paul
               been
               of
               your
               mind
               ,
               he
               would
               not
               have
               commended
               ,
               but
               reproved
               the
               Beraans
               for
               searching
               the
               Scriptures
               ,
               and
               examining
               his
               Doctrine
               by
               them
               ,
               Act.
               17.
               11.
               
               If
               any
               of
               your
               people
               should
               do
               as
               the
               Beraeans
               did
               ,
               they
               would
               be
               sent
               to
               the
               Inquisition
               .
               I
               do
               not
               deny
               ,
               but
               too
               many
               make
               a
               bad
               use
               of
               the
               Scripture
               ,
               and
               wrest
               it
               to
               wicked
               purposes
               ,
               which
               is
               to
               me
               no
               better
               an
               argument
               than
               this
               ;
               Wine
               makes
               many
               men
               drunk
               ,
               therefore
               no
               Wine
               must
               be
               sold.
               The
               Doctrine
               of
               Free
               Grace
               was
               abused
               by
               thousands
               (
               as
               we
               read
               )
               therefore
               S.
               Paul
               did
               ill
               in
               preaching
               of
               it
               .
               The
               light
               of
               the
               Sun
               hurts
               sore
               eyes
               ,
               therefore
               Solomon
               was
               mistaken
               ,
               when
               he
               said
               ,
               
                 It
                 is
                 a
                 pleasant
                 thing
                 to
                 behold
                 the
                 Sun.
              
               But
               since
               you
               speak
               of
               this
               ,
               I
               pray
               you
               let
               me
               ask
               you
               one
               question
               ;
               Were
               not
               most
               of
               the
               Heresies
               that
               ever
               were
               in
               the
               Church
               ,
               brought
               in
               by
               learned
               men
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               I
               cannot
               deny
               that
               ,
               for
               it
               is
               notoriously
               known
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               Then
               you
               shut
               up
               the
               wrong
               door
               ;
               for
               ,
               it
               seems
               ,
               it
               is
               not
               the
               unlearned
               mans
               reading
               ,
               but
               the
               learned
               mans
               perverting
               the
               Scripture
               ,
               which
               is
               the
               true
               cause
               and
               fountain
               of
               Heresies
               :
               
               And
               besides
               ,
               you
               must
               not
               do
               evil
               ,
               that
               good
               may
               come
               out
               of
               it
               ,
               nor
               defraud
               people
               of
               their
               greatest
               treasure
               ,
               nor
               keep
               them
               from
               their
               duty
               ,
               for
               fear
               of
               some
               inconveniencies
               .
               This
               is
               to
               make
               your selves
               wiser
               than
               God.
               
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               But
               indeed
               you
               slander
               us
               in
               this
               point
               :
               We
               do
               not
               absolutely
               forbid
               reading
               of
               the
               Scriptures
               .
               The
               Council
               of
               Trent
               allows
               it
               ,
               provided
               you
               can
               get
               the
               Bishops
               leave
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot
               ,
            
             
               It
               is
               true
               ,
               that
               Council
               pretends
               to
               give
               some
               such
               liberty
               ;
               but
               they
               take
               away
               with
               one
               hand
               ,
               what
               they
               gave
               with
               the
               other
               ;
               for
               in
               their
               Index
               of
               forbidden
               Books
               ,
               they
               have
               this
               passage
               :
               
                 Since
                 experience
                 sheweth
                 that
                 the
                 promiscuous
                 reading
                 of
                 the
                 Bible
                 brings
                 more
                 evil
                 than
                 good
                 ,
                 therefore
                 if
                 any
                 man
                 shall
                 dare
                 to
                 read
                 ,
                 or
                 have
                 a
                 Bible
                 without
                 license
                 from
                 the
                 Bishop
                 ,
                 or
                 Inquisitor
                 ,
                 he
                 shall
                 not
                 be
                 capable
                 of
                 absolution
              
               *
               
                 unless
                 he
                 part
                 with
                 his
                 Bible
                 .
              
               But
               in
               truth
               ,
               this
               pretended
               License
               is
               but
               an
               handsome
               blind
               :
               For
               in
               that
               very
               place
               there
               is
               this
               Observation
               added
               to
               that
               Rule
               ,
               That
               
                 the
                 power
                 of
                 giving
                 such
                 Licenses
                 of
                 reading
                 ,
                 or
                 keeping
                 the
                 vulgar
                 Bibles
                 ,
                 is
                 taken
                 away
                 from
                 such
                 Bishops
                 and
                 
                 Inquisitors
                 ,
                 by
                 the
                 command
                 and
                 usage
                 of
                 the
              
               Roman
               
                 and
                 universal
                 Inquisition
              
               .
               At
               best
               ,
               it
               seems
               ,
               I
               must
               not
               obey
               Christs
               command
               of
               
                 searching
                 the
                 Scriptures
              
               ,
               unless
               the
               Bishop
               give
               me
               leave
               .
               But
               I
               pray
               you
               tell
               me
               ;
               Do
               your
               people
               use
               to
               ask
               ,
               and
               the
               Bishops
               to
               give
               them
               leave
               to
               read
               the
               Bible
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               
                 I
                 will
                 not
                 dissemble
                 with
                 you
                 ,
                 They
                 do
                 not
                 .
                 And
                 ,
                 the
                 truth
                 is
                 ,
                 an
                 approved
                 Writer
                 of
                 ours
                 ,
              
               Ledesima
               
                 puts
                 the
                 question
              
               ;
               What
               if
               a
               man
               should
               come
               to
               the
               Bishop
               ,
               and
               desire
               liberty
               to
               read
               the
               Bible
               ,
               and
               that
               with
               a
               good
               intention
               ?
               
                 to
                 which
                 he
                 replies
                 ,
                 that
              
               the
               Bishop
               should
               answer
               him
               in
               the
               words
               of
               Christ
               ,
               Matt.
               20.
               20.
               
               Ye
               know
               not
               what
               ye
               ask
               ,
               and
               Indeed
               (
               
                 saith
                 he
                 ,
                 and
                 he
                 saith
                 it
                 truly
              
               )
               the
               root
               of
               this
               demand
               is
               an
               heretical
               disposition
               *
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               Then
               I
               perceive
               in
               this
               ,
               as
               well
               as
               in
               other
               things
               ,
               you
               are
               more
               careful
               to
               deceive
               people
               with
               pretences
               ,
               than
               to
               inform
               them
               .
               But
               indeed
               ,
               you
               tell
               me
               no
               more
               than
               I
               had
               read
               ,
               or
               heard
               out
               of
               your
               own
               Authors
               .
               It
               was
               the
               speech
               of
               your
               Pope
               Innocent
               ,
               That
               
                 the
                 Mountain
                 which
                 the
                 Beasts
                 must
                 not
                 touch
                 
                 is
                 the
                 high
                 and
                 holy
                 Scriptures
                 which
                 the
                 unlearned
                 must
                 not
                 read
              
               *
               and
               your
               Doctors
               commonly
               affirm
               ,
               that
               people
               must
               not
               be
               suffered
               to
               read
               the
               Scriptures
               ,
               because
               
                 we
                 must
                 not
                 give
                 holy
                 things
                 to
                 Dogs
                 ,
                 nor
                 cast
                 Pearls
                 before
                 swine
                 .
              
            
             
               My
               fourth
               General
               consideration
               against
               your
               Religion
               is
               this
               ,
               That
               it
               grosly
               contradicts
               the
               great
               designs
               and
               ends
               of
               the
               Christian
               Religion
               ,
               which
               all
               confess
               to
               be
               such
               as
               these
               ,
               the
               glorifying
               of
               God
               ,
               and
               his
               Son
               Jesus
               Christ
               ,
               and
               the
               humbling
               and
               abasing
               of
               men
               ,
               the
               beating
               down
               of
               all
               sin
               ,
               and
               the
               promoting
               of
               serious
               holiness
               .
               Are
               not
               those
               the
               chief
               ends
               of
               Religion
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               I
               do
               freely
               acknowledge
               they
               are
               ,
               and
               our
               Religion
               doth
               most
               answer
               these
               ends
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               That
               you
               and
               I
               will
               now
               try
               And
               for
               the
               first
               :
               Your
               Religion
               doth
               highly
               dishonour
               God
               sundry
               ways
               .
               What
               can
               be
               a
               greater
               dishonour
               to
               God
               ,
               than
               to
               make
               the
               holy
               Scriptures
               (
               which
               you
               confess
               to
               be
               the
               Word
               of
               God
               )
               to
               depend
               upon
               the
               Testimony
               and
               Authority
               of
               your
               Pope
               ,
               or
               Church
               ,
               and
               to
               say
               ,
               that
               the
               Word
               of
               God
               is
               but
               a
               dead
               
               letter
               ,
               and
               hath
               no
               authority
               over
               us
               without
               their
               Interpretation
               and
               Approbation
               ;
               By
               which
               means
               malefactors
               (
               for
               such
               all
               men
               are
               ,
               Rom.
               3.
               9
               ,
               10.
               your
               Pope
               not
               excepted
               )
               are
               made
               Judges
               of
               ,
               and
               superiour
               to
               that
               Law
               whereby
               they
               are
               condemned
               .
               Tell
               me
               ;
               would
               not
               the
               French
               King
               take
               it
               for
               a
               great
               dishonour
               ,
               if
               any
               of
               his
               Subjects
               should
               say
               ,
               That
               his
               Edicts
               and
               Decrees
               had
               no
               Authority
               over
               his
               People
               without
               their
               approbation
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               Yes
               ,
               doubtless
               he
               would
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               Just
               so
               you
               deal
               with
               God
               :
               and
               what
               can
               be
               a
               fouler
               dishonour
               to
               God
               ,
               than
               that
               which
               your
               great
               Stapleton
               affirmed
               ,
               and
               Gretser
               and
               others
               justified
               ,
               and
               your
               Church
               to
               this
               day
               have
               never
               disowned
               it
               :
               
                 That
                 the
                 Divinity
                 of
                 Christ
                 and
                 of
                 God
              
               (
               in
               respect
               of
               us
               )
               
                 depends
                 upon
                 the
                 Authority
                 of
                 the
                 Pope
                 ?
              
               *
               And
               what
               more
               dishonourable
               to
               God
               than
               what
               your
               great
               Champion
               Bellarmine
               saith
               ,
               That
               ,
               
                 if
                 the
                 Pope
                 should
                 erre
                 in
                 forbidding
                 Virtues
              
               (
               which
               God
               hath
               commanded
               )
               
                 and
                 commanding
                 Vices
              
               (
               which
               God
               hath
               forbidden
               )
               ;
               And
               that
               he
               may
               so
               erre
               ,
               divers
               of
               your
               most
               famous
               and
               approved
               
               Authors
               confess
               ,
               *
               the
               Church
               were
               bound
               to
               believe
               Vices
               to
               be
               good
               ,
               and
               Vertues
               bad
               ,
               unless
               she
               would
               sin
               against
               Conscience
               ;
               †
               that
               is
               ,
               in
               plain
               terms
               ,
               the
               Pope
               is
               to
               be
               obeyed
               before
               God.
               Again
               ,
               is
               it
               not
               highly
               dishonorable
               to
               God
               ,
               to
               give
               the
               Worship
               which
               is
               proper
               to
               God
               ,
               unto
               the
               Creature
               ?
               I
               confess
               the
               Prophet
               Isaiah
               hath
               convinced
               me
               of
               it
               ,
               
                 Isa.
                 42
                 ,
                 8.
                 
                 I
                 am
                 the
                 Lord
                 ,
                 that
                 is
                 my
                 Name
                 ,
                 and
                 my
                 glory
                 will
                 I
                 not
                 give
                 to
                 another
                 ,
                 neither
                 my
                 praise
                 to
                 graven
                 Images
                 .
              
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               I
               also
               am
               of
               the
               same
               mind
               ;
               but
               it
               is
               a
               scandal
               of
               your
               Ministers
               ,
               to
               say
               we
               give
               Gods
               honour
               to
               the
               Creature
               :
               I
               know
               where
               about
               you
               are
               ,
               you
               mean
               it
               of
               Images
               ,
               whereas
               we
               worship
               them
               with
               a
               lower
               kind
               of
               Worship
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               You
               worship
               them
               with
               such
               a
               kind
               of
               worship
               ,
               as
               neither
               Angels
               nor
               Saints
               durst
               receive
               .
               Cornelius
               did
               not
               worship
               Peter
               with
               a
               Divine
               Worship
               as
               God
               (
               for
               he
               knew
               he
               was
               but
               Gods
               Minister
               )
               yet
               Peter
               durst
               not
               receive
               it
               .
               It
               was
               an
               inferiour
               Worship
               which
               the
               Devil
               required
               of
               Christ
               ,
               for
               he
               acknowledges
               at
               the
               same
               time
               ,
               God
               to
               be
               his
               Superiour
               ,
               and
               the
               giver
               of
               that
               power
               he
               claimeth
               ,
               
               Luke
               4.
               6.
               
               And
               yet
               that
               was
               the
               Worship
               ,
               which
               Christ
               saith
               God
               hath
               forbidden
               ,
               to
               be
               given
               to
               any
               Creature
               .
               You
               are
               a
               valiant
               man
               ,
               that
               dare
               venture
               your
               immortal
               soul
               upon
               a
               nice
               School
               distinction
               .
               I
               pray
               you
               ,
               do
               you
               not
               worship
               the
               Bread
               in
               the
               Sacrament
               ,
               with
               that
               worship
               which
               you
               call
               Latria
               ,
               which
               is
               proper
               to
               God
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               We
               do
               so
               ,
               and
               that
               upon
               very
               good
               reason
               ,
               because
               it
               is
               not
               Bread
               ,
               but
               the
               very
               Body
               of
               Christ
               into
               which
               the
               Bread
               is
               turned
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               But
               what
               if
               the
               Bread
               be
               not
               converted
               in
               Christs
               Body
               :
               Is
               it
               not
               then
               an
               high
               dishonour
               to
               God
               ,
               and
               indeed
               damnable
               Idolatry
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               
                 Yes
                 ,
                 our
              
               Fisher
               
                 the
                 famous
                 Martyr
                 and
                 Bishop
                 of
              
               Rochester
               ,
               saith
               ,
               No
               man
               can
               doubt
               ,
               if
               there
               be
               nothing
               in
               the
               Eucharist
               but
               Bread
               ,
               that
               the
               whole
               Church
               hath
               been
               guilty
               of
               Idolatry
               for
               a
               long
               time
               ,
               and
               therefore
               must
               needs
               be
               damned
               *
               ;
               
                 but
                 we
                 are
                 well
                 assured
                 ,
                 that
                 it
                 is
                 no
                 longer
                 Bread
                 ;
                 and
                 yet
                 I
                 must
                 add
                 this
                 ;
                 If
                 peradventure
                 it
                 should
                 still
                 remain
                 Bread
                 ,
                 yet
                 for
                 as
                 much
                 as
                 we
                 believe
                 it
                 ,
                 to
                 be
                 the
                 Body
                 of
                 our
                 Lord
                 ,
                 our
                 ignorance
                 ,
                 I
                 hope
                 ,
                 would
                 
                 excuse
                 us
                 from
                 Idolatry
                 ,
                 and
                 God
                 would
                 not
                 impute
                 it
                 to
                 us
                 .
              
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               Tell
               me
               ,
               I
               beseech
               you
               ,
               Will
               all
               kind
               of
               ignorance
               excuse
               a
               man
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               No
               certainly
               ,
               There
               is
               a
               wilful
               and
               affected
               ignorance
               ;
               which
               ,
               because
               it
               is
               against
               clear
               light
               ,
               will
               not
               excuse
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               Tell
               me
               farther
               ,
               Did
               this
               excuse
               the
               Iews
               from
               their
               sin
               of
               crucifying
               Christ
               ,
               and
               the
               damnation
               due
               to
               it
               ,
               that
               
                 they
                 did
                 it
                 ignorantly
              
               ?
               Act.
               3.
               17.
               
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               No
               ,
               because
               they
               shut
               their
               eyes
               against
               the
               plain
               light
               ,
               and
               clear
               evidence
               of
               that
               truth
               that
               Christ
               was
               the
               Messias
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               No
               less
               do
               you
               in
               the
               doctrine
               of
               the
               Sacrament
               ;
               for
               they
               had
               no
               greater
               evidences
               against
               them
               ,
               than
               Sense
               ,
               and
               Reason
               ,
               and
               Scripture
               ;
               all
               which
               you
               reject
               ,
               (
               as
               I
               shall
               prove
               by
               Gods
               help
               .
               )
               And
               as
               your
               Religion
               dishonours
               God
               ,
               so
               doth
               it
               also
               highly
               dishonour
               Jesus
               Christ
               whom
               he
               hath
               sent
               ,
               who
               is
               expresly
               called
               the
               
                 one
                 Mediatour
                 ,
                 1
                 Tim.
              
               2.
               5.
               
               But
               you
               have
               conferred
               that
               honour
               upon
               many
               others
               ,
               Saints
               and
               Angels
               .
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               True
               ,
               there
               is
               but
               one
               chief
               Mediatour
               ,
               but
               there
               may
               be
               other
               secondary
               Mediatours
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               In
               like
               manner
               ,
               to
               that
               which
               the
               Apostle
               there
               saith
               ,
               
                 there
                 is
                 but
                 one
                 
                 God
              
               ;
               it
               might
               be
               said
               ,
               there
               are
               other
               secondary
               gods
               ,
               and
               so
               we
               might
               introduce
               the
               Heathen
               gods
               into
               the
               Church
               .
               It
               is
               the
               great
               Prerogative
               of
               Jesus
               Christ
               ,
               that
               he
               is
               the
               Redeemer
               of
               the
               World
               ;
               yet
               your
               Bellarmine
               was
               not
               afraid
               to
               communicate
               this
               honour
               to
               the
               creature
               ,
               and
               expresly
               saith
               ,
               
                 It
                 is
                 not
                 absur'd
                 ,
                 that
                 holy
                 men
                 be
                 called
                 our
                 Redeemers
                 after
                 a
                 sort
              
               *
               ,
               and
               more
               of
               the
               like
               stuff
               we
               shall
               meet
               with
               before
               we
               part
               :
               yet
               again
               ,
               your
               Religion
               as
               it
               depresseth
               God
               ,
               so
               it
               exalts
               the
               creature
               .
               I
               will
               instance
               but
               in
               one
               thing
               ,
               and
               that
               is
               your
               Doctrine
               of
               Justification
               by
               the
               merit
               of
               good
               works
               :
               A
               doctrine
               ,
               which
               S.
               Paul
               affirms
               ,
               gives
               unto
               a
               man
               matter
               of
               boasting
               and
               glorying
               ,
               Rom.
               3.
               27.
               
               
                 Where
                 is
                 boasting
                 then
                 ?
                 it
                 is
                 excluded
                 ,
                 By
                 what
                 Law
                 ?
                 of
                 Works
                 ?
                 Nay
                 ,
                 but
                 by
                 the
                 Law
                 of
                 Faith
                 ,
              
               &
               Rom.
               4.
               2.
               
               
                 For
                 if
                 Abraham
                 were
                 justified
                 by
                 works
                 ,
                 he
                 hath
                 whereof
                 to
                 glory
                 .
              
               Next
               ,
               you
               grant
               ,
               That
               it
               is
               the
               great
               design
               and
               intent
               of
               Religion
               ,
               to
               discourage
               and
               beat
               down
               sin
               ,
               which
               your
               Religion
               doth
               exceedingly
               incourage
               by
               your
               Doctrines
               and
               Practice
               in
               Absolutions
               and
               Indulgences
               .
               In
               my
               acquaintance
               ,
               
               I
               have
               known
               several
               Papists
               that
               have
               wonderfully
               encouraged
               themselves
               in
               their
               wicked
               wayes
               from
               this
               consideration
               ;
               especially
               when
               Easter
               drew
               near
               ,
               because
               they
               knew
               they
               should
               very
               suddenly
               be
               shriven
               ,
               and
               absolved
               ,
               and
               be
               (
               as
               they
               said
               )
               as
               sound
               and
               clean
               as
               when
               they
               came
               first
               into
               the
               world
               .
               I
               have
               known
               also
               divers
               of
               our
               loose
               Protestants
               that
               have
               turn'd
               to
               your
               Religion
               ,
               that
               they
               might
               have
               greater
               liberty
               for
               ,
               and
               the
               security
               in
               sin
               ;
               and
               in
               my
               Conscience
               ,
               If
               I
               would
               let
               my
               lusts
               choose
               a
               Religion
               for
               me
               ,
               they
               would
               presently
               lead
               me
               to
               your
               Religion
               :
               And
               so
               again
               ,
               your
               Religion
               doth
               not
               at
               all
               promote
               serious
               holiness
               ,
               but
               the
               soul
               and
               spirit
               of
               it
               is
               dwindled
               away
               into
               meer
               formality
               :
               What
               can
               be
               of
               more
               pestilent
               consequence
               to
               true
               holiness
               than
               to
               tell
               a
               man
               ,
               that
               the
               saying
               so
               many
               Pater-Nosters
               ,
               or
               Ave-Maries
               ,
               (
               though
               it
               may
               be
               he
               is
               talking
               ,
               or
               gazing
               about
               in
               the
               midst
               of
               his
               Devotions
               )
               will
               procure
               him
               acceptance
               with
               God
               ?
               Is
               it
               true
               ,
               that
               your
               great
               and
               devout
               Doctor
               Suarez
               saith
               ,
               That
               
                 is
                 it
                 not
                 essential
                 to
                 Prayer
                 ,
                 that
                 a
                 man
                 should
                 think
                 of
                 what
                 he
                 saith
                 ?
              
            
          
           
             
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               It
               is
               true
               ,
               he
               doth
               say
               so
               in
               his
               Book
               of
               Prayer
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               Then
               I
               confess
               ,
               your
               Religion
               hath
               the
               advantage
               of
               ours
               ,
               for
               a
               man
               may
               do
               two
               businesses
               at
               once
               :
               It
               hath
               set
               me
               much
               against
               your
               Religion
               ,
               since
               I
               understood
               that
               you
               turned
               that
               great
               Doctrine
               of
               Repentance
               into
               a
               meer
               formality
               :
               What
               a
               sad
               Doctrine
               is
               it
               that
               your
               great
               Masters
               teach
               ,
               that
               Repentance
               is
               not
               necessary
               at
               all
               times
               ,
               but
               only
               on
               Holy-daies
               ,
               (
               as
               some
               of
               your
               Authors
               say
               )
               only
               once
               in
               a
               year
               ,
               that
               is
               ,
               at
               Easter
               (
               as
               others
               .
               )
               Nay
               indeed
               ,
               once
               in
               all
               his
               life
               ,
               and
               that
               in
               danger
               of
               death
               (
               as
               Navar
               ,
               and
               Cajetan
               )
               ?
               what
               an
               encouragement
               is
               this
               to
               wickedness
               ,
               to
               tell
               men
               that
               a
               thousand
               of
               their
               sins
               are
               venial
               ,
               which
               though
               not
               repented
               of
               ,
               will
               not
               exclude
               them
               from
               the
               favour
               of
               God
               ,
               and
               from
               Salvation
               ;
               but
               I
               will
               rake
               no
               farther
               into
               this
               kennel
               .
            
             
               I
               think
               this
               may
               serve
               turn
               ,
               to
               let
               you
               see
               ,
               that
               I
               had
               warrant
               to
               say
               ,
               That
               your
               Religion
               contradicts
               the
               design
               ,
               and
               end
               of
               all
               Religion
               .
            
             
               V.
               The
               fifth
               Consideration
               that
               sets
               me
               against
               your
               Religion
               ,
               is
               the
               desperate
               issues
               that
               you
               are
               driven
               to
               in
               the
               defence
               
               of
               your
               Cause
               ;
               as
               for
               example
               ,
               in
               the
               great
               point
               of
               Infallibility
               ,
               I
               observe
               your
               learned
               Doctors
               are
               beaten
               out
               of
               all
               their
               former
               Assertions
               and
               Opinions
               ;
               you
               have
               been
               driven
               from
               Scripture
               to
               the
               Fathers
               ,
               from
               them
               to
               the
               Pope
               ,
               from
               him
               to
               a
               Council
               ,
               and
               thence
               to
               the
               Pope
               with
               a
               Council
               ,
               and
               (
               as
               a
               further
               sign
               of
               a
               desperate
               cause
               )
               the
               Jesuits
               are
               brought
               to
               that
               exigence
               ,
               that
               they
               are
               forced
               to
               affirm
               the
               Pope
               to
               be
               infallible
               in
               matters
               of
               fact
               ,
               which
               is
               confessedly
               a
               new
               ,
               upstart
               ,
               and
               indeed
               ,
               monstrous
               Opinion
               ;
               and
               yet
               those
               piercing
               wits
               see
               their
               cause
               cannot
               be
               defended
               without
               it
               :
               and
               others
               seeing
               the
               vanity
               of
               all
               their
               former
               pretences
               ,
               have
               been
               forced
               to
               resolve
               all
               into
               the
               present
               Churches
               testimony
               .
               *
               So
               for
               the
               point
               of
               Idolatry
               ,
               you
               are
               driven
               to
               those
               straits
               ,
               that
               you
               cannot
               excuse
               your selves
               from
               Idolatry
               ,
               but
               by
               such
               pretences
               as
               will
               excuse
               both
               Jewish
               and
               Gentile
               Idolaters
               ;
               and
               one
               of
               your
               ablest
               Champions
               is
               brought
               to
               this
               plunge
               ,
               that
               he
               is
               forced
               to
               affirm
               ,
               that
               
                 some
                 Idolatry
                 is
                 
                 lawful
              
               *
               :
               I
               might
               instance
               in
               very
               many
               others
               ,
               but
               I
               forbear
               .
            
             
               VI.
               A
               sixth
               consideration
               is
               taken
               from
               the
               partiality
               of
               your
               Religion
               ;
               That
               Religion
               which
               is
               from
               God
               ,
               is
               doubtless
               agreeable
               to
               the
               Nature
               and
               Will
               of
               God.
               But
               so
               is
               not
               your
               Religion
               ,
               for
               it
               is
               guilty
               of
               that
               respect
               of
               persons
               which
               Scripture
               every
               where
               denies
               to
               be
               in
               God
               ,
               
                 Act.
                 10.
                 34.
                 
                 Rom.
              
               2.
               11.
               
               Iob
               34.
               19.
               
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               How
               is
               our
               Religion
               guilty
               of
               respect
               of
               persons
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               I
               might
               shew
               it
               in
               many
               things
               ,
               but
               I
               will
               confine
               my self
               to
               one
               particular
               ;
               and
               that
               is
               ,
               in
               point
               of
               Indulgences
               :
               The
               Souls
               of
               all
               that
               die
               in
               venial
               sins
               ,
               are
               doomed
               to
               those
               terrible
               pains
               of
               Purgatory
               ,
               there
               to
               continue
               none
               knows
               how
               long
               (
               by
               the
               way
               ,
               I
               cannot
               but
               take
               notice
               of
               the
               great
               unhappiness
               of
               those
               Christians
               ,
               that
               lived
               and
               died
               in
               the
               dayes
               of
               Christ
               and
               the
               Apostles
               ,
               that
               have
               been
               multitudes
               of
               them
               frying
               in
               Purgatory
               to
               this
               day
               ,
               and
               are
               like
               to
               be
               so
               as
               long
               as
               the
               World
               lasts
               ;
               whereas
               those
               that
               live
               nearer
               the
               end
               of
               the
               World
               ,
               must
               needs
               have
               a
               far
               shorter
               abode
               there
               ,
               so
               men
               are
               punished
               
               with
               continuance
               of
               their
               torments
               ,
               meerly
               for
               the
               circumstance
               of
               time
               of
               their
               birth
               ;
               but
               this
               is
               not
               the
               thing
               I
               aim
               at
               ,
               )
               from
               these
               pains
               of
               Purgatory
               ,
               there
               is
               no
               way
               to
               deliver
               a
               man
               but
               by
               indulgences
               ;
               and
               these
               indulgences
               must
               be
               bought
               off
               with
               money
               ,
               and
               wealthy
               men
               may
               buy
               off
               those
               corporal
               pains
               ,
               (
               which
               the
               rascal
               herd
               must
               suffer
               without
               bail
               or
               main-prise
               )
               and
               turn
               them
               into
               a
               fine
               of
               the
               purse
               .
               So
               I
               see
               it
               was
               not
               without
               reason
               ,
               that
               Solomon
               said
               ,
               
                 Money
                 answers
                 all
                 things
              
               .
               I
               have
               heard
               that
               your
               tax
               of
               the
               Apostolical
               Chancery
               (
               put
               forth
               by
               the
               Authority
               of
               your
               Church
               ,
               where
               there
               is
               a
               price
               put
               upon
               all
               indulgences
               ,
               and
               upon
               all
               kinds
               of
               sins
               )
               hath
               this
               expression
               ,
               
                 Diligently
                 note
                 ,
                 that
                 these
                 graces
              
               (
               of
               Indulgences
               )
               
                 are
                 not
                 given
                 to
                 the
                 Poor
                 ,
                 because
                 they
                 are
                 not
                 ,
                 and
                 therefore
                 cannot
                 be
                 comforted
              
               a
               ;
               by
               which
               I
               see
               ,
               that
               if
               St.
               Peter
               himself
               should
               rise
               from
               the
               dead
               ,
               and
               come
               to
               his
               Successour
               ,
               with
               his
               old
               tone
               ,
               
                 Silver
                 and
                 Gold
                 have
                 I
                 none
                 ,
              
               if
               he
               were
               a
               thousand
               Peters
               ,
               he
               
               must
               into
               Purgatory
               without
               mercy
               .
               I
               am
               told
               that
               another
               of
               your
               Authors
               ,
               
                 Augustinus
                 de
                 Ancona
              
               ,
               an
               Author
               of
               great
               note
               with
               you
               ,
               tells
               us
               ,
               
                 that
                 Indulgences
                 are
                 for
                 the
                 relief
                 of
                 the
                 Churches
              
               (
               that
               ,
               is
               the
               Popes
               ,
               and
               their
               Prelates
               )
               
                 Indigencies
                 ,
                 which
              
               b
               
                 is
                 not
                 relieved
                 by
                 a
                 willingness
                 to
                 give
              
               (
               which
               is
               all
               that
               any
               poor
               man
               can
               pretend
               to
               )
               
                 but
                 by
                 the
                 gift
                 it self
              
               .
               (
               It
               seems
               your
               Church
               is
               not
               of
               Gods
               minde
               ;
               for
               ,
               if
               
                 there
                 be
                 a
                 willing
                 mind
                 ,
                 he
                 accepteth
                 it
                 for
                 the
                 deed
                 ,
                 2
                 Cor.
              
               8.
               12.
               )
               And
               a
               little
               after
               (
               as
               I
               am
               told
               )
               he
               saith
               ,
               
                 as
                 to
                 the
                 remission
                 of
                 punishment
                 which
                 is
                 procured
                 by
                 indulgences
                 ,
                 in
                 that
                 case
                 it
                 is
                 not
                 inconvenient
                 ,
                 that
                 the
                 rich
                 is
                 in
                 a
                 better
                 condition
                 than
                 the
                 poor
                 ,
                 for
                 there
                 it
                 is
                 not
                 said
                 ,
                 come
                 and
                 buy
                 without
                 money
              
               c
               .
               I
               confess
               that
               were
               a
               dangerous
               speech
               ,
               and
               would
               utterly
               undoe
               all
               the
               Church
               of
               Rome
               .
               It
               is
               sufficient
               that
               Isaiah
               once
               said
               it
               ,
               and
               Christ
               again
               ,
               
                 come
                 and
                 drink
                 freely
              
               .
               People
               should
               have
               been
               wise
               ,
               and
               taken
               them
               at
               their
               word
               ,
               for
               they
               are
               never
               
               like
               to
               hear
               it
               a
               third
               time
               .
               Is
               this
               true
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               They
               do
               indeed
               say
               so
               ;
               and
               the
               practice
               of
               our
               Church
               manifests
               to
               all
               the
               world
               ,
               that
               Indulgences
               are
               sold
               for
               money
               ,
               and
               the
               condition
               of
               the
               rich
               ,
               in
               that
               ,
               is
               better
               than
               the
               poor
               .
               But
               what
               great
               matter
               is
               that
               ,
               as
               to
               the
               Pardon
               of
               Sin
               ,
               and
               eternal
               Life
               ,
               or
               Death
               ,
               both
               rich
               and
               poor
               are
               alike
               .
               This
               difference
               is
               only
               as
               to
               the
               pains
               of
               Purgatory
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               Is
               that
               nothing
               to
               you
               ?
               you
               speak
               against
               your
               own
               ,
               and
               all
               mens
               sense
               :
               we
               see
               how
               highly
               men
               esteem
               to
               be
               freed
               from
               a
               painful
               ,
               though
               short
               ,
               disease
               here
               ;
               how
               much
               more
               to
               be
               freed
               from
               such
               pains
               as
               you
               all
               confess
               to
               be
               unspeakably
               more
               sharp
               and
               grievous
               ,
               than
               all
               the
               pains
               that
               ever
               were
               endured
               in
               this
               world
               :
               It
               is
               so
               considerable
               a
               thing
               ,
               that
               I
               assure
               you
               ,
               it
               is
               to
               me
               matter
               of
               wonder
               (
               if
               Christ
               and
               the
               Apostles
               had
               been
               of
               your
               minde
               )
               how
               it
               came
               to
               pass
               so
               unluckily
               ,
               that
               the
               poor
               only
               should
               receive
               the
               Gospel
               ;
               whereas
               ,
               if
               the
               men
               of
               that
               Age
               had
               not
               been
               all
               Fools
               ,
               the
               rich
               would
               have
               been
               most
               forward
               to
               entertain
               it
               .
            
             
               VII
               .
               But
               to
               proceed
               .
               My
               seventh
               Consideration
               against
               your
               Religion
               is
               taken
               from
               its
               great
               hazard
               ,
               and
               utter
               uncertainty
               .
               According
               to
               the
               doctrine
               of
               your
               Church
               ,
               no
               man
               can
               be
               sure
               of
               his
               salvation
               
               (
               without
               a
               revelation
               )
               but
               he
               must
               go
               out
               of
               the
               world
               ,
               not
               knowing
               whether
               he
               goes
               .
               Indeed
               there
               is
               nothing
               but
               hazard
               and
               uncertainty
               in
               your
               Religion
               ;
               I
               suppose
               you
               grant
               that
               all
               your
               Faith
               ,
               and
               consequently
               your
               salvation
               depends
               upon
               the
               infallible
               Authority
               of
               your
               Church
               .
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               That
               is
               most
               certain
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               Are
               you
               then
               infallibly
               certain
               ,
               that
               your
               Church
               is
               infallible
               ,
               or
               do
               you
               only
               probably
               believe
               it
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               I
               am
               but
               a
               private
               Priest
               ,
               and
               therefore
               cannot
               pretend
               to
               Infallibility
               ;
               but
               I
               am
               fully
               satisfied
               in
               it
               ,
               that
               the
               Church
               is
               infallible
               in
               it self
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               Then
               I
               see
               you
               pretend
               to
               no
               more
               certainty
               than
               I
               have
               ;
               for
               I
               know
               (
               and
               you
               grant
               )
               that
               the
               Scripture
               is
               infallible
               in
               it self
               :
               and
               I
               know
               its
               infallibility
               as
               certainly
               as
               you
               know
               the
               infallibility
               of
               your
               Church
               .
               But
               ,
               I
               pray
               you
               tell
               me
               ,
               what
               is
               your
               opinion
               ?
               I
               know
               your
               are
               divided
               :
               but
               where
               do
               you
               place
               the
               infallibility
               ,
               or
               where
               do
               you
               lay
               the
               foundation
               of
               your
               Faith
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               To
               deal
               freely
               with
               you
               ,
               I
               place
               it
               in
               the
               Pope
               ;
               who
               when
               he
               determines
               things
               
                 out
                 of
                 his
                 Chair
              
               ,
               is
               infallible
               :
               for
               S.
               Peter
               who
               was
               supream
               Head
               of
               the
               Church
               ,
               left
               the
               Pope
               his
               Successour
               .
            
          
           
             
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               Then
               it
               seems
               your
               Faith
               doth
               wholly
               depend
               on
               these
               things
               ,
               that
               Saint
               Peter
               was
               Bishop
               of
               Rome
               ,
               and
               died
               there
               ,
               and
               that
               he
               left
               the
               Pope
               his
               successour
               in
               his
               supream
               and
               infallible
               Authority
               .
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               It
               doth
               so
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               How
               then
               are
               you
               infallibly
               assured
               of
               the
               truth
               of
               these
               things
               ,
               which
               are
               all
               matters
               of
               Fact
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               Because
               they
               are
               affirmed
               by
               so
               many
               of
               the
               Ancient
               Fathers
               and
               Writers
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               Were
               those
               Fathers
               or
               Writers
               infallible
               persons
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               No.
               
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               Then
               might
               they
               ,
               and
               so
               may
               you
               ,
               be
               mistaken
               in
               that
               point
               ;
               and
               so
               indeed
               you
               have
               nothing
               but
               a
               meer
               conjecture
               for
               the
               foundation
               of
               your
               Faith.
               But
               again
               ,
               are
               you
               infallibly
               sure
               ,
               that
               Saint
               Peters
               intention
               was
               to
               leave
               his
               Infallibility
               to
               the
               Pope
               ?
               For
               I
               do
               not
               read
               that
               S.
               Peter
               left
               it
               in
               his
               last
               wil.
               I
               tell
               you
               true
               it
               is
               strange
               to
               me
               ,
               that
               St.
               Peter
               should
               write
               two
               Catholick
               Epistles
               ,
               and
               (
               as
               I
               observed
               before
               )
               not
               leave
               one
               word
               concerning
               this
               matter
               .
               For
               my
               part
               I
               shall
               alwayes
               rather
               question
               the
               Popes
               Authority
               ,
               than
               S.
               Peters
               fidelity
               or
               discretion
               ,
               in
               omitting
               so
               Fundamental
               a
               Point
               when
               he
               put
               in
               many
               of
               far
               less
               concernment
               .
               But
               
               further
               ,
               I
               demand
               ,
               How
               are
               you
               assured
               that
               St.
               Peter
               intended
               to
               leave
               his
               power
               ,
               and
               did
               actually
               leave
               it
               to
               his
               Successors
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               By
               the
               unanimous
               consent
               of
               the
               Ancient
               Fathers
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               I
               wonder
               at
               your
               confidence
               ,
               that
               you
               dare
               affirm
               a
               thing
               which
               our
               Authors
               *
               have
               so
               clearly
               proved
               to
               be
               false
               .
               But
               suppose
               it
               were
               so
               ,
               that
               the
               Fathers
               had
               said
               it
               ;
               tell
               me
               ,
               are
               the
               Fathers
               infallible
               ?
               at
               least
               are
               they
               so
               in
               their
               reports
               of
               matter
               of
               Fact
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               No
               :
               we
               confess
               that
               it
               is
               only
               the
               Pope
               or
               Council
               that
               are
               infallible
               ,
               not
               the
               Fathers
               ;
               &
               to
               be
               true
               to
               you
               ,
               even
               the
               Pope
               himself
               is
               not
               infallible
               in
               his
               Reports
               of
               matters
               of
               Fact.
               
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               Then
               you
               have
               nothing
               but
               a
               meer
               conjecture
               ,
               or
               historical
               Report
               delivered
               by
               men
               ,
               liable
               to
               mistake
               ,
               for
               the
               great
               foundation
               of
               your
               Faith.
               Yet
               once
               more
               ,
               have
               you
               any
               greater
               or
               better
               certainty
               for
               your
               Faith
               than
               the
               Pope
               himself
               .
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               God
               forbid
               I
               should
               be
               so
               impud●nt
               or
               wicked
               to
               say
               so
               ;
               for
               my
               Faith
               depends
               upon
               his
               certainty
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               Very
               well
               ,
               How
               I
               beseech
               you
               is
               the
               Pope
               assured
               ?
               what
               is
               it
               that
               makes
               him
               infallibly
               certain
               of
               his
               own
               Infallibility
               ?
               Is
               he
               assured
               of
               〈◊〉
               Revelat●on
               ?
            
          
           
             
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               No
               (
               as
               I
               have
               told
               you
               oft
               )
               we
               pretend
               to
               no
               such
               things
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               How
               then
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               By
               the
               Spirit
               of
               God
               which
               guides
               him
               into
               all
               truth
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               How
               is
               he
               assured
               that
               the
               Spirit
               of
               God
               guides
               him
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               
                 By
                 the
                 promises
                 God
                 hath
                 made
                 to
                 him
                 ;
                 I
                 need
                 not
                 repeat
                 them
                 ,
                 they
                 are
                 known
                 already
                 ,
              
               Thou
               are
               Peter
               ,
               &c.
               
               Simon
               ,
               Simon
               ,
               I
               have
               prayed
               that
               thy
               Faith
               fail
               not
               ,
               &c.
               
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               I
               have
               already
               shewn
               how
               absurdly
               these
               Texts
               are
               alledged
               .
               But
               I
               beseech
               you
               ,
               how
               is
               the
               Pope
               infallibly
               assured
               that
               this
               is
               the
               true
               meaning
               of
               those
               Texts
               ?
               You
               confess
               it
               is
               not
               by
               inspiration
               .
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               He
               knows
               that
               ,
               by
               considering
               and
               comparing
               Scripture
               with
               Scripture
               ,
               and
               by
               consulting
               the
               Fathers
               ,
               and
               Prayer
               ,
               Diligence
               ,
               and
               Obedience
               ,
               &c.
               
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               All
               these
               things
               are
               very
               good
               ,
               but
               any
               other
               man
               may
               use
               these
               means
               as
               well
               as
               the
               Pope
               ,
               and
               hath
               as
               full
               promises
               from
               God
               ,
               as
               any
               the
               Pope
               pretends
               to
               as
               
                 Ioh.
                 7.
                 17.
                 
                 If
                 any
                 man
                 will
                 do
                 his
                 will
                 ,
                 he
                 shal
                 know
                 of
                 the
                 doctrine
                 ,
                 whether
                 it
                 be
                 of
                 God
              
               ;
               and
               the
               Spirit
               of
               Truth
               is
               promised
               to
               all
               that
               ask
               it
               ,
               Luke
               11.
               13.
               
               So
               if
               this
               be
               all
               you
               
               have
               to
               say
               ,
               God
               deliver
               my
               soul
               from
               such
               a
               desperate
               Religion
               ,
               wherein
               all
               the
               certainty
               of
               its
               Faith
               depends
               upon
               his
               infallibility
               ,
               that
               is
               not
               certain
               of
               his
               own
               infallibility
               .
            
             
               But
               I
               need
               say
               no
               more
               of
               this
               ;
               It
               is
               to
               me
               an
               undeniable
               argument
               ,
               that
               there
               is
               no
               certainty
               at
               all
               in
               this
               foundation
               ;
               because
               (
               as
               you
               confess
               )
               so
               many
               hundreds
               of
               your
               ablest
               Schollars
               do
               utterly
               reject
               it
               .
               But
               once
               more
               ,
               in
               my
               opinion
               you
               run
               a
               dreadful
               hazard
               in
               the
               point
               of
               worshiping
               of
               Creaturers
               ,
               Images
               ,
               Saints
               ,
               and
               especially
               the
               Bread
               in
               the
               Sacrament
               ,
               in
               which
               you
               run
               other
               hazards
               besides
               those
               I
               spoke
               of
               .
               I
               am
               told
               ,
               that
               your
               Doctrine
               is
               this
               ,
               That
               it
               is
               necessary
               to
               the
               making
               of
               a
               Sacrament
               (
               and
               so
               to
               the
               conversion
               of
               the
               Bread
               into
               Christs
               Body
               )
               that
               the
               Priest
               intend
               to
               consecrate
               it
               .
               Is
               it
               so
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               Yes
               doubtless
               ,
               Bellarmine
               and
               all
               our
               Authors
               largely
               dispute
               for
               that
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               And
               can
               I
               be
               sure
               of
               another
               mans
               intentions
               ?
               It
               is
               sufficiently
               known
               ,
               that
               divers
               of
               your
               Priests
               are
               prophane
               ,
               and
               atheistical
               wretches
               ,
               others
               envious
               and
               malicious
               ,
               and
               some
               actually
               Jews
               .
               What
               assurance
               have
               I
               ,
               that
               my
               Priest
               is
               not
               such
               an
               one
               ,
               and
               that
               he
               doth
               not
               either
               out
               of
               a
               contempt
               or
               hatred
               of
               Religion
               
               or
               malice
               against
               my
               person
               ,
               intend
               to
               deceive
               me
               ,
               and
               not
               make
               a
               Sacrament
               of
               it
               ?
               Sure
               I
               am
               ,
               they
               intend
               to
               deceive
               their
               people
               in
               the
               preaching
               of
               the
               Word
               ,
               and
               why
               they
               may
               not
               do
               so
               in
               the
               Administration
               of
               the
               Sacrament
               ,
               I
               know
               not
               .
            
             
               VIII
               .
               My
               eighth
               and
               last
               general
               consideration
               is
               this
               ,
               that
               your
               Religion
               destroys
               even
               the
               principles
               of
               morality
               :
               which
               true
               Religion
               is
               so
               far
               from
               destroying
               ,
               that
               it
               improves
               and
               perfects
               it
               .
               I
               confess
               ,
               the
               bloodiness
               of
               your
               Religion
               hath
               ever
               made
               me
               both
               suspect
               and
               loath
               it
               .
               I
               find
               that
               Christ
               is
               a
               Prince
               of
               peace
               ;
               though
               he
               whipt
               some
               out
               of
               the
               Temple
               yet
               he
               never
               whipt
               any
               into
               his
               Church
               ;
               that
               he
               drew
               in
               his
               Disciples
               with
               the
               cords
               of
               a
               man
               ,
               of
               conviction
               and
               perswasion
               ;
               and
               so
               did
               his
               Apostles
               after
               him
               :
               but
               your
               Religion
               (
               like
               Draco's
               laws
               )
               is
               written
               in
               blood
               .
               I
               perceive
               you
               answer
               our
               Arguments
               with
               Fire
               and
               Faggot
               :
               besides
               this
               ,
               your
               Religion
               destroyes
               all
               civil
               Faith
               and
               Society
               ;
               your
               principle
               is
               known
               ,
               and
               so
               is
               your
               practice
               of
               equivocation
               ,
               and
               keeping
               no
               faith
               with
               Hereticks
               .
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               I
               know
               where
               you
               are
               ,
               you
               mean
               because
               of
               
                 John
                 Husse
              
               who
               after
               he
               had
               the
               
               faith
               of
               the
               Emperour
               given
               him
               for
               his
               safe
               Conduct
               ,
               was
               contrary
               to
               that
               faith
               put
               to
               death
               in
               the
               Council
               of
               Constance
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               I
               do
               so
               ,
               and
               what
               can
               you
               say
               for
               it
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               This
               I
               say
               you
               must
               not
               charge
               upon
               our
               Church
               ,
               the
               opinion
               of
               some
               few
               private
               Doctors
               ,
               since
               others
               disown
               this
               ,
               and
               have
               written
               against
               it
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               It
               seems
               it
               is
               a
               disputable
               point
               among
               you
               ,
               whether
               you
               ought
               to
               be
               honest
               or
               not
               :
               but
               I
               have
               heard
               that
               
                 Iohn
                 Husse
              
               was
               condemned
               by
               the
               Council
               of
               Constance
               ,
               and
               that
               when
               the
               Emperour
               scrupled
               to
               break
               his
               Faith
               ,
               they
               declared
               he
               might
               do
               it
               ,
               and
               ought
               to
               do
               it
               .
               Is
               it
               so
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               It
               is
               true
               ,
               what
               was
               done
               in
               that
               point
               ;
               was
               done
               by
               the
               Council
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               And
               you
               hold
               Councils
               (
               especially
               where
               the
               Pope
               joyns
               with
               them
               as
               he
               did
               with
               that
               Council
               )
               to
               be
               infallible
               ;
               and
               therefore
               this
               I
               may
               confidently
               charge
               upon
               you
               as
               a
               Principle
               of
               your
               Religion
               .
               I
               cannot
               but
               observe
               your
               fine
               devices
               :
               At
               other
               times
               when
               we
               alledge
               passages
               out
               of
               any
               of
               your
               learned
               Doctors
               which
               make
               against
               you
               ,
               you
               tell
               us
               they
               are
               but
               private
               Doctors
               ,
               and
               we
               must
               judge
               of
               you
               by
               your
               Councils
               .
               Now
               
               here
               we
               bring
               an
               approved
               Councils
               testimony
               ,
               and
               you
               send
               us
               back
               to
               your
               private
               Doctors
               .
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               These
               discourses
               of
               yours
               are
               only
               general
               ;
               I
               had
               rather
               you
               would
               come
               to
               the
               other
               thing
               you
               proposed
               ,
               viz.
               to
               examine
               the
               particular
               points
               of
               our
               Religion
               ,
               wherein
               I
               hope
               I
               shall
               give
               you
               such
               solid
               grounds
               and
               reasons
               ,
               that
               when
               you
               shall
               understand
               them
               ,
               you
               will
               embrace
               them
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               You
               shall
               find
               me
               ingenuous
               and
               docible
               ,
               only
               remember
               I
               expect
               not
               words
               ,
               but
               solid
               Arguments
               .
               I
               think
               our
               best
               course
               will
               be
               to
               pick
               out
               some
               principal
               points
               of
               your
               Religion
               ,
               and
               examine
               them
               ;
               for
               the
               rest
               will
               either
               stand
               or
               fall
               as
               they
               do
               .
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               I
               am
               perfectly
               of
               your
               mind
               ,
               let
               us
               proceed
               accordingly
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               First
               then
               ,
               if
               you
               please
               ,
               we
               will
               begin
               with
               the
               sacrifice
               of
               the
               Mass
               ,
               which
               you
               say
               is
               essential
               to
               the
               Christian
               Religion
               .
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               
                 It
                 is
                 so
                 ,
                 and
              
               Bellarmine
               
                 rightly
                 saith
                 ,
                 that
              
               where
               there
               is
               no
               sacrifice
               (
               
                 as
                 you
                 Protestants
                 have
                 none
              
               )
               there
               is
               in
               truth
               no
               Religion
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               Therefore
               ,
               I
               pray
               you
               ,
               let
               me
               hear
               one
               or
               two
               (
               for
               those
               are
               as
               good
               as
               an
               hundred
               )
               of
               your
               chief
               grounds
               and
               reasons
               for
               that
               Sacrifice
               .
            
          
           
             
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               I
               approve
               your
               motion
               ,
               and
               I
               shall
               only
               insist
               upon
               two
               Arguments
               :
               First
               ,
               the
               Sacrifice
               of
               the
               Mass
               was
               appointed
               by
               God
               ,
               or
               Christ
               ,
               in
               the
               words
               of
               Institution
               of
               the
               Sacrament
               ,
               
                 do
                 this
                 in
                 remembrance
                 of
                 me
                 .
              
               It
               is
               the
               great
               Argument
               of
               the
               Council
               of
               Trent
               *
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               I
               adore
               the
               fruitfulness
               of
               your
               Churches
               Invention
               .
               It
               seems
               they
               think
               these
               two
               words
               ,
               
                 do
                 this
              
               ,
               contain
               no
               less
               than
               two
               of
               your
               Sacraments
               ,
               to
               wit
               ,
               that
               of
               Orders
               ,
               which
               makes
               Priests
               ,
               and
               that
               of
               the
               Supper
               .
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               They
               do
               so
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               That
               ,
               no
               sober
               man
               will
               easily
               believe
               ;
               nor
               that
               Christs
               meaning
               in
               the
               words
               mentioned
               was
               this
               ,
               
                 Sacrifice
                 me
                 in
                 remembrance
                 of
                 me
                 .
              
               But
               let
               me
               hear
               how
               you
               prove
               the
               Institution
               of
               the
               Mass
               from
               these
               words
               .
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               Christ
               bid
               his
               Disciples
               ,
               
                 do
                 this
              
               ,
               viz.
               that
               which
               he
               did
               :
               Christ
               did
               in
               that
               last
               Supper
               truly
               and
               properly
               offer
               up
               himself
               to
               his
               Father
               ,
               his
               Body
               under
               the
               shape
               of
               Bread
               ,
               his
               Blood
               under
               the
               shape
               of
               Wine
               ;
               and
               therefore
               they
               were
               truly
               and
               properly
               to
               offer
               up
               ,
               or
               
               Sacrifice
               Christ
               in
               the
               Sacrament
               .
               The
               Argument
               is
               Bellarmin's
               *
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               How
               do
               you
               prove
               that
               Christ
               did
               in
               that
               last
               Supper
               truly
               and
               properly
               offer
               up
               his
               Body
               and
               Blood
               to
               his
               Father
               ?
               I
               read
               that
               
                 Christ
                 offered
                 himself
                 but
                 once
              
               ,
               Heb.
               8.
               27.
               and
               9.
               25
               ,
               26
               ,
               27
               ,
               28.
               and
               10.
               14.
               and
               that
               was
               upon
               the
               Cross
               ;
               nor
               do
               I
               find
               that
               he
               offered
               any
               thing
               at
               all
               to
               God
               in
               that
               Supper
               ,
               but
               only
               to
               his
               Apostles
               :
               And
               what
               ,
               did
               Christ
               Sacrifice
               himself
               ,
               and
               imbrue
               his
               hands
               in
               his
               own
               Blood
               ;
               and
               did
               he
               eat
               up
               his
               own
               Body
               ?
               did
               he
               take
               his
               whole
               Body
               into
               his
               Mouth
               ?
               these
               are
               Monsters
               of
               Opinions
               :
               But
               how
               prove
               you
               that
               Christ
               did
               then
               offer
               up
               himself
               to
               God
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               Because
               Christ
               speaks
               in
               the
               present
               tense
               ,
               
                 This
                 is
                 my
                 Body
                 which
                 is
                 broken
                 ,
                 Blood
                 which
                 is
                 shed
                 :
              
               he
               doth
               not
               say
               which
               
                 shall
                 be
              
               broken
               ,
               and
               shed
               ;
               and
               therefore
               it
               must
               be
               broken
               and
               shed
               at
               that
               very
               time
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               What
               a
               vain
               Argumet
               is
               this
               ?
               you
               know
               nothing
               is
               more
               usual
               in
               Scripture
               than
               to
               put
               the
               Present
               Tense
               for
               the
               Future
               .
               Christ
               saith
               ,
               
                 I
                 do
                 lay
                 down
                 my
                 life
              
               when
               he
               means
               ,
               I
               will
               do
               it
               shortly
               ,
               Iohn
               
               10.
               15.
               
               
                 I
                 do
                 go
                 to
                 my
                 Father
                 ,
                 Iohn
              
               16.
               28.
               that
               is
               ,
               I
               shall
               go
               shortly
               :
               
                 Do
                 that
                 thou
                 dost
              
               ,
               that
               is
               ,
               
                 art
                 about
                 to
                 do
              
               ,
               John
               13.
               27.
               
               And
               in
               Mat.
               26.
               
               Christ
               saith
               of
               his
               Blood
               ,
               
                 This
                 is
                 my
                 Blood
                 which
                 is
                 shed
                 for
                 many
                 for
                 the
                 remission
                 of
                 sins
              
               ;
               and
               yet
               I
               suppose
               it
               was
               not
               shed
               at
               that
               time
               ;
               for
               you
               all
               profess
               the
               Sacrifice
               of
               the
               Mass
               is
               an
               unbloody
               Sacrifice
               :
               But
               again
               ,
               tell
               me
               ,
               I
               pray
               you
               ,
               when
               Christ
               said
               ,
               
                 do
                 this
              
               ,
               did
               they
               not
               obey
               Christs
               command
               at
               that
               Supper
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               I
               cannot
               deny
               that
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               Thence
               unavoidably
               follows
               ,
               that
               this
               doing
               concerns
               the
               Communicants
               ,
               as
               well
               as
               (
               if
               not
               more
               than
               )
               the
               Minister
               ;
               and
               so
               it
               is
               not
               meant
               of
               Sacrificing
               Christ
               ,
               but
               receiving
               of
               him
               ;
               and
               really
               ,
               if
               this
               Text
               do
               not
               ,
               there
               is
               no
               other
               which
               doth
               ,
               enjoyn
               Communicants
               to
               receive
               ;
               which
               he
               that
               can
               believe
               ,
               hath
               got
               a
               good
               mastery
               over
               his
               Faith
               :
               Besides
               ,
               what
               Christ
               here
               commands
               his
               Apostles
               ,
               I
               finde
               St.
               Paul
               commands
               the
               Corinthians
               ,
               and
               expounds
               
                 doing
                 this
              
               by
               
                 eating
                 and
                 drinking
              
               ,
               1
               Cor.
               11.
               
               And
               moreover
               ,
               if
               the
               words
               
                 do
                 this
              
               ,
               were
               the
               words
               which
               did
               ordain
               both
               Priest
               and
               Sacrifice
               ,
               who
               can
               think
               that
               two
               of
               the
               Evangelists
               ,
               viz.
               both
               Matthew
               and
               Mark
               would
               have
               omitted
               them
               in
               mentioning
               the
               words
               of
               
               Institution
               ;
               and
               therefore
               this
               may
               pass
               .
               I
               shall
               only
               adde
               ,
               that
               if
               our
               Divines
               should
               prove
               their
               Doctrines
               no
               better
               than
               by
               such
               wrested
               Scriptures
               and
               Arguments
               as
               this
               ,
               we
               should
               hiss
               them
               out
               of
               the
               Pulpit
               :
               but
               I
               suppose
               you
               have
               some
               better
               Argument
               ,
               therefore
               let
               me
               hear
               it
               .
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               Consider
               then
               that
               irresistable
               Argument
               ,
               
                 Christ
                 is
                 a
                 Priest
                 ,
                 after
                 the
                 order
                 of
                 Melchisedeck
                 .
              
               Now
               Melchisedeck
               did
               offer
               up
               a
               Sacrifice
               of
               Bread
               and
               Wine
               to
               God
               ,
               Gen.
               14.
               and
               thefore
               Christ
               was
               bound
               in
               agreement
               with
               this
               Type
               ,
               to
               offer
               up
               such
               a
               Sacrifice
               ,
               even
               his
               Body
               and
               blood
               ,
               under
               the
               species
               of
               Bread
               and
               Wine
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               You
               tell
               me
               Melchisedeck
               offered
               up
               Bread
               and
               Wine
               to
               God
               ;
               I
               find
               no
               such
               matter
               :
               it
               is
               only
               a
               dream
               of
               your
               own
               .
               The
               History
               is
               ,
               Gen.
               14.
               where
               indeed
               I
               read
               of
               his
               offering
               Bread
               and
               Wine
               to
               Abraham
               and
               his
               Souldiers
               ,
               to
               refresh
               them
               (
               according
               to
               the
               custom
               of
               those
               times
               and
               places
               ,
               )
               Deut.
               23.
               3
               ,
               4.
               and
               Iudges
               8.
               6.
               but
               not
               a
               word
               of
               any
               offering
               to
               God.
               It
               is
               the
               strangest
               relation
               of
               a
               Sacrifice
               that
               ever
               was
               ;
               here
               's
               not
               one
               word
               of
               the
               Altar
               ,
               or
               Offering
               ,
               or
               Consecration
               ,
               or
               the
               Destruction
               of
               the
               Sacrifice
               .
               You
               grant
               the
               thing
               sacrificed
               must
               be
               destroyed
               
               when
               it
               is
               sacrificed
               ;
               I
               pray
               you
               how
               is
               this
               bread
               destroyed
               (
               save
               only
               by
               the
               Souldiers
               mouths
               ,
               which
               you
               say
               came
               after
               the
               Sacrifice
               ?
               )
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               The
               bread
               possibly
               was
               destroyed
               by
               putting
               it
               in
               the
               furnace
               ,
               and
               the
               Wine
               sprinkled
               upon
               the
               furnace
               ,
               as
               Vasquez
               answers
               *
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               I
               see
               it
               was
               otherwise
               in
               those
               dayes
               than
               now
               it
               is
               .
               If
               I
               thought
               my
               Bread
               would
               be
               destroyed
               by
               putting
               it
               into
               the
               Oven
               ,
               I
               assure
               you
               ,
               I
               would
               never
               put
               it
               in
               .
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               
                 It
                 must
                 be
                 a
                 Sacrifice
                 that
                 is
                 there
                 related
                 ;
                 for
                 it
                 follows
                 ,
              
               And
               he
               was
               the
               Priest
               of
               the
               most
               High
               God.
               
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               Not
               at
               all
               ;
               for
               his
               being
               Priest
               evidently
               relates
               to
               that
               which
               follows
               ,
               
                 and
                 he
                 blessed
                 him
                 ,
                 and
                 received
                 Tythes
                 of
                 all
                 :
              
               Besides
               ,
               if
               Melchisedeck
               did
               here
               offer
               a
               Sacrifice
               ,
               was
               Jesus
               Christ
               obliged
               to
               offer
               the
               same
               kind
               of
               Sacrifice
               that
               he
               did
               ?
               for
               Christ
               was
               to
               offer
               up
               himself
               ,
               Heb.
               9.
               10.
               
               (
               which
               none
               of
               his
               Types
               did
               .
               )
               Tell
               me
               first
               ,
               Was
               Melchisedeck
               a
               Type
               of
               Christ
               in
               that
               action
               of
               eating
               Bread
               and
               Wine
               ?
            
          
           
             
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               Yes
               doubtless
               ,
               and
               this
               was
               the
               principal
               thing
               ,
               in
               respect
               of
               which
               Christ
               is
               called
               a
               Priest
               after
               the
               order
               of
               Melchisedeck
               ,
               or
               else
               I
               say
               nothing
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               Then
               tell
               me
               ,
               how
               can
               any
               man
               in
               his
               wits
               ,
               believe
               that
               St.
               Paul
               ,
               who
               spends
               so
               much
               of
               his
               Epistle
               to
               the
               Hebrews
               ;
               in
               comparing
               Christ
               and
               Melchisedeck
               ,
               and
               their
               Priesthood
               together
               ;
               and
               who
               picks
               up
               the
               very
               smallest
               circumstances
               ,
               as
               that
               he
               was
               
                 without
                 father
              
               ,
               &c.
               
               Should
               not
               speak
               one
               word
               of
               this
               ,
               which
               (
               if
               you
               say
               true
               )
               was
               the
               principal
               thing
               ?
               Besides
               all
               this
               ,
               If
               Melchisedeck
               was
               a
               type
               of
               Christ
               in
               that
               action
               ,
               Did
               Christ
               offer
               Bread
               and
               Wine
               as
               Melchisedeck
               did
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               No
               ,
               but
               he
               offered
               his
               own
               Body
               and
               Blood
               under
               the
               appearance
               of
               Bread
               and
               Wine
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               Nay
               ,
               now
               I
               see
               there
               is
               no
               possibility
               of
               pleasing
               you
               ;
               for
               I
               expected
               this
               all
               along
               ,
               that
               Christ
               must
               needs
               have
               offered
               the
               same
               kind
               of
               Sacrifice
               that
               Melchisedeck
               did
               here
               :
               But
               now
               you
               forsake
               your
               own
               argument
               ,
               and
               because
               Melchisedeck
               did
               offer
               Bread
               and
               Wine
               ,
               Christ
               must
               not
               offer
               Bread
               and
               Wine
               ,
               but
               something
               else
               under
               those
               appearances
               .
               Now
               I
               have
               heard
               your
               two
               principial
               Arguments
               ,
               I
               hope
               you
               will
               hear
               mine
               also
               .
            
          
           
             
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               Good
               reason
               I
               should
               do
               so
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               Then
               first
               ,
               I
               argue
               thus
               ,
               The
               Sacrifice
               of
               Christ
               was
               perfect
               ,
               and
               did
               perfect
               all
               Believers
               ,
               Heb.
               10.
               14.
               and
               therefore
               it
               need
               not
               ,
               and
               ought
               not
               to
               be
               repeated
               ,
               for
               the
               Apostle
               proves
               the
               imperfection
               of
               Levitical
               Sacrifices
               ,
               because
               they
               were
               repeated
               ,
               Heb.
               10.
               1
               ,
               2.
               
               
                 Where
                 remission
                 of
                 sin
                 is
                 ,
                 there
                 is
                 no
                 more
                 offering
                 for
                 sin
                 ,
              
               Heb.
               10.
               18.
               
               Either
               then
               remission
               was
               not
               obtained
               by
               his
               once
               offering
               ,
               or
               there
               must
               be
               no
               more
               offering
               ;
               either
               Christs
               offering
               upon
               the
               Cross
               was
               insufficient
               ,
               or
               yours
               in
               the
               Mass
               is
               unnecessary
               .
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               It
               is
               not
               properly
               repeated
               ,
               for
               it
               is
               the
               same
               Sacrifice
               ,
               for
               substance
               ,
               which
               was
               offered
               upon
               the
               Cross
               ,
               and
               is
               offered
               in
               the
               Mass
               *
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               How
               is
               it
               of
               the
               same
               kind
               ,
               when
               you
               say
               ,
               the
               one
               is
               bloody
               ,
               the
               other
               unbloody
               ;
               the
               one
               offered
               by
               Christ
               ,
               the
               other
               by
               a
               Priest
               ;
               but
               if
               it
               were
               of
               the
               same
               kind
               ,
               so
               were
               the
               Levitical
               Sacrifices
               ,
               and
               all
               had
               relation
               to
               Christ
               (
               as
               you
               pretend
               all
               Masses
               have
               )
               and
               yet
               the
               Apostle
               makes
               their
               Repetition
               an
               evidence
               of
               their
               Imperfection
               ,
               Heb.
               
               9.
               10.
               
               And
               moreover
               ,
               the
               Apostle
               denies
               not
               only
               the
               repetition
               of
               other
               Sacrifices
               ,
               but
               also
               of
               the
               same
               Sacrifice
               ,
               and
               tells
               us
               as
               plainly
               (
               as
               man
               can
               speak
               )
               that
               Christ
               was
               to
               offer
               up
               himself
               but
               once
               ,
               Heb.
               9.
               25
               ,
               &c.
               whereas
               you
               wil
               needs
               over-rule
               the
               Apostle
               ,
               and
               force
               Christ
               to
               offer
               up
               himself
               thousands
               of
               times
               ▪
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               It
               is
               true
               ,
               there
               is
               but
               one
               Sacrifice
               of
               Redemption
               ,
               and
               Expiation
               for
               Sin
               ,
               and
               that
               was
               the
               Sacrifice
               of
               the
               Cross
               ;
               but
               there
               are
               other
               Sacrifices
               of
               Application
               to
               apply
               that
               to
               us
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               I
               hope
               the
               Word
               ,
               and
               Sacraments
               ,
               and
               Spirit
               of
               Christ
               ,
               are
               sufficient
               to
               apply
               Christs
               Sacrifice
               ;
               must
               we
               have
               one
               Sacrifice
               to
               apply
               another
               ?
               who
               ever
               heard
               of
               one
               plaister
               made
               to
               apply
               another
               ?
               or
               a
               ransome
               paid
               the
               second
               time
               to
               apply
               the
               former
               payment
               ?
               And
               you
               seem
               to
               me
               quite
               to
               forget
               your selves
               ,
               to
               destroy
               the
               nature
               of
               your
               Sacrifice
               :
               for
               the
               business
               of
               a
               Sacrifice
               is
               oblation
               to
               God
               ,
               not
               application
               to
               men
               .
               Besides
               ,
               I
               have
               one
               Argument
               more
               which
               fully
               satisfies
               me
               ;
               if
               the
               Mass
               be
               a
               real
               and
               proper
               Sacrifice
               ,
               then
               the
               thing
               sacrificed
               must
               be
               really
               and
               properly
               destroyed
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               That
               I
               readily
               grant
               ,
               as
               Bellarmin
               
               a
               also
               doth
               ,
               and
               indeed
               so
               it
               was
               in
               all
               the
               Sacrifices
               that
               ever
               were
               offered
               to
               God.
               
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               But
               surely
               Jesus
               Christ
               is
               not
               destroyed
               in
               the
               Mass
               :
               Is
               he
               ?
               And
               are
               your
               Priests
               the
               murderers
               of
               Christ
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               He
               is
               not
               so
               destroyed
               ,
               for
               we
               tell
               you
               ,
               it
               is
               an
               unbloody
               Sacrifice
               ;
               yet
               he
               is
               in
               a
               manner
               destroy'd
               by
               the
               Priest's
               eating
               of
               him
               :
               for
               thereby
               Christ
               ceaseth
               to
               be
               where
               he
               was
               before
               ,
               that
               is
               ,
               in
               the
               species
               of
               Bread
               and
               Wine
               ,
               and
               the
               Bread
               and
               Wine
               are
               destroyed
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               Call
               you
               this
               a
               destruction
               ,
               for
               one
               to
               remove
               from
               one
               place
               to
               another
               ,
               or
               to
               cease
               to
               be
               where
               he
               was
               before
               ?
               this
               is
               ridiculous
               ;
               and
               yet
               this
               b
               fantastical
               and
               mock-destruction
               is
               all
               which
               you
               can
               bring
               ,
               instead
               of
               that
               real
               destruction
               ,
               which
               you
               confess
               necessary
               to
               the
               very
               essence
               of
               a
               Sacrifice
               .
               And
               as
               for
               the
               Bread
               and
               Wine
               they
               were
               destroyed
               by
               Transubstantiation
               ,
               not
               by
               the
               Oblation
               or
               Sacrifice
               which
               comes
               after
               it
               .
            
             
               And
               now
               having
               mentioned
               that
               ,
               let
               us
               discourse
               concerning
               your
               Doctrine
               of
               
               Transubstantiation
               .
               And
               first
               ,
               tell
               me
               what
               is
               the
               Doctrine
               of
               your
               Church
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               
                 That
                 the
                 Council
                 of
              
               Trent
               
                 will
                 inform
                 you
                 ,
                 which
                 declareth
                 ,
              
               that
               by
               Consecration
               the
               whole
               substance
               of
               the
               Bread
               and
               Wine
               is
               converted
               into
               the
               substance
               of
               the
               Body
               and
               Blood
               of
               Christ
               a
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               How
               is
               it
               possible
               for
               the
               Bread
               to
               be
               converted
               into
               Christs
               Body
               ,
               which
               was
               made
               already
               before
               the
               Bread
               ?
               That
               Christ
               could
               turn
               Water
               into
               Wine
               was
               possible
               ,
               but
               that
               he
               should
               turn
               that
               Water
               into
               such
               Wine
               as
               was
               in
               being
               before
               that
               change
               ,
               this
               is
               impossible
               :
               but
               let
               that
               go
               :
               My
               next
               question
               is
               ,
               if
               a
               Christian
               did
               actually
               receive
               Christs
               Body
               and
               Blood
               ,
               tell
               me
               ,
               what
               profit
               hath
               he
               by
               it
               ?
               I
               cannot
               believe
               that
               God
               would
               work
               so
               many
               Miracles
               (
               as
               you
               affirm
               he
               doth
               in
               this
               Sacrament
               )
               to
               no
               purpose
               :
               Scripture
               and
               Reason
               tells
               me
               ,
               and
               your
               Council
               of
               Trent
               confesseth
               b
               ,
               that
               the
               Sacrament
               is
               a
               feast
               for
               my
               Soul
               ,
               and
               not
               for
               my
               Body
               .
               Is
               it
               not
               so
               ?
               Now
               ,
               what
               is
               my
               Soul
               the
               better
               for
               eating
               the
               very
               Body
               of
               Christ
               ?
               When
               the
               woman
               cryed
               out
               to
               our
               Saviour
               ,
               c
               
                 Blessed
                 is
                 the
                 womb
                 that
                 
                 thee
              
               ;
               Christ
               replies
               ,
               
                 Yea
                 ,
                 rather
                 ,
                 Blessed
                 are
                 they
                 that
                 hear
                 Gods
                 Words
                 ,
                 and
                 do
                 it
                 :
              
               nevertheless
               ,
               if
               you
               can
               solidly
               prove
               it
               ,
               I
               will
               receive
               it
               ;
               therefore
               bring
               forth
               your
               Principal
               Arguments
               for
               it
               .
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               I
               will
               do
               so
               ,
               and
               our
               Church
               proves
               this
               point
               ,
               especially
               ,
               from
               two
               places
               of
               Scripture
               ,
               John
               6.
               and
               the
               words
               of
               Institution
               .
               I
               begin
               with
               the
               sixth
               Chapter
               of
               John
               ,
               where
               our
               Saviour
               oft
               tells
               us
               ,
               that
               
                 the
                 Bread
                 which
                 he
                 gives
                 is
                 his
                 flesh
                 ,
              
               &c.
               
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               I
               have
               heard
               ,
               that
               divers
               of
               your
               learned
               Doctors
               confess
               this
               Chapter
               speaks
               not
               of
               the
               Sacrament
               :
               Is
               it
               so
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               I
               will
               not
               dissemble
               with
               you
               .
               That
               was
               the
               opinion
               of
               Biel
               a
               ,
               Cardinal
               Cusanus
               b
               ,
               Cajetan
               ,
               c
               ,
               and
               Tapperus
               d
               ,
               and
               divers
               others
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               Certainly
               ,
               This
               Argument
               is
               not
               likely
               to
               convince
               a
               Protestant
               which
               could
               not
               satisfie
               your
               own
               ablest
               Schollars
               .
               But
               I
               will
               not
               press
               that
               farther
               .
               Tell
               me
               then
               ,
               do
               you
               judge
               that
               Christ
               speaks
               here
               of
               a
               bodily
               eating
               and
               drinking
               of
               his
               very
               Flesh
               and
               Blood
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               We
               do
               so
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               I
               confess
               some
               of
               the
               Antient
               ;
               
               were
               of
               your
               mind
               ,
               I
               mean
               the
               Jews
               .
               But
               with
               submission
               ,
               I
               am
               rather
               of
               Christs
               Opinion
               ,
               who
               plainly
               destroys
               that
               gross
               and
               carnal
               sense
               ,
               telling
               them
               ,
               it
               is
               the
               
                 Spirit
                 that
                 quickneth
                 ,
                 the
                 Flesh
                 profits
                 nothing
                 ,
              
               vers
               .
               63.
               
               Again
               ,
               doth
               not
               Christ
               press
               this
               as
               a
               necessary
               ,
               and
               present
               duty
               ,
               upon
               all
               the
               Jews
               that
               then
               heard
               him
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               That
               must
               be
               granted
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               Then
               certainly
               Christ
               speaks
               not
               of
               the
               Sacrament
               which
               was
               not
               then
               instituted
               ,
               and
               therefore
               they
               could
               not
               partake
               of
               it
               .
               I
               demand
               further
               ,
               is
               this
               Sacrament
               of
               such
               efficacy
               ,
               that
               all
               that
               receive
               it
               are
               saved
               ;
               and
               of
               such
               necessity
               ,
               that
               all
               that
               do
               not
               take
               it
               are
               damned
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               No
               ,
               our
               Church
               utterly
               condemns
               both
               those
               Opinions
               .
            
          
           
             
               Port
               :
            
             
               But
               this
               eating
               of
               Christs
               Flesh
               is
               such
               ,
               that
               Christ
               saith
               ,
               all
               that
               eat
               it
               are
               saved
               ,
               v.
               24.
               and
               all
               that
               do
               not
               eat
               it
               are
               damned
               ,
               v.
               53.
               
               Therefore
               surely
               he
               speaks
               not
               of
               a
               Sacramental
               eating
               :
               besides
               the
               whole
               Laity
               are
               utterly
               undone
               ,
               if
               your
               sense
               of
               this
               Chapter
               be
               true
               ;
               for
               I
               find
               that
               drinking
               of
               Christs
               Blood
               is
               no
               less
               necessary
               to
               life
               eternal
               ,
               than
               eating
               of
               his
               Flesh
               ;
               and
               therefore
               woe
               to
               them
               to
               whom
               you
               do
               not
               allow
               to
               drink
               of
               the
               Cup
               in
               the
               Sacrament
               .
               I
               am
               told
               this
               objection
               
               is
               so
               considerable
               ,
               that
               it
               forced
               divers
               of
               your
               Doctors
               (
               sore
               against
               their
               will
               )
               to
               forsake
               this
               Argument
               ;
               and
               therefore
               this
               will
               not
               do
               your
               work
               :
               but
               I
               presume
               you
               have
               better
               Arguments
               .
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               We
               have
               so
               .
               I
               shall
               urge
               but
               one
               ,
               which
               is
               of
               its
               self
               sufficient
               ,
               from
               the
               plain
               words
               of
               Institution
               ,
               
                 This
                 is
                 my
                 Body
              
               .
               Methinks
               the
               very
               hearing
               of
               them
               read
               ,
               should
               convince
               you
               ,
               if
               you
               would
               take
               the
               words
               in
               their
               plain
               and
               proper
               sense
               ,
               and
               not
               devise
               I
               know
               not
               what
               Figures
               and
               Tropes
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               If
               it
               were
               true
               that
               Christ
               did
               turn
               the
               Bread
               into
               his
               Body
               by
               saying
               these
               words
               ,
               
                 This
                 is
                 my
                 Body
              
               ,
               yet
               how
               doth
               it
               follow
               ,
               that
               the
               Priest
               by
               reciting
               these
               words
               ,
               worketh
               the
               same
               effect
               ,
               any
               more
               than
               a
               Priest
               ,
               every
               time
               he
               reads
               those
               words
               ,
               
                 Let
                 there
                 be
                 light
              
               ,
               doth
               make
               light
               ;
               because
               God
               did
               make
               it
               by
               those
               words
               :
               or
               than
               he
               raiseth
               a
               dead
               man
               ,
               every
               time
               he
               reads
               those
               words
               of
               Christ
               ,
               
                 Lazarus
                 ,
                 come
                 forth
              
               .
               Moreover
               ,
               I
               have
               heard
               that
               divers
               of
               your
               most
               learned
               Doctors
               confess
               ,
               that
               this
               place
               doth
               not
               ,
               nor
               indeed
               ,
               any
               other
               place
               of
               Scripture
               ,
               prove
               Transubstantiation
               .
               I
               have
               heard
               three
               Cardinals
               named
               ,
               
                 viz.
                 Cajetan
              
               a
               and
               our
               Bishop
               
               of
               Rochester
               b
               and
               Cameracensis
               c
               ,
               and
               divers
               famous
               Schoolmen
               ,
               as
               Scotus
               and
               Biel
               ,
               of
               whom
               this
               is
               known
               ,
               and
               Durandus
               d
               ,
               and
               Ocham
               e
               ,
               and
               
                 Melchior
                 Canus
              
               f
               ,
               and
               Vasquez
               g
               ,
               and
               the
               great
               Cardinal
               Perron
               professeth
               ,
               that
               
                 he
                 believes
                 Transubstantiation
                 ,
                 not
                 by
                 vertue
                 of
                 any
                 necessary
                 consequence
                 ,
                 or
                 reason
                 ,
                 alledged
                 by
                 their
                 Doctors
                 ;
                 but
                 by
                 the
                 words
                 of
                 Christ
                 ,
                 as
                 they
                 are
                 expounded
                 by
                 Tradition
              
               h
               :
               and
               Bellarmin
               himself
               confesseth
               ,
               
                 This
                 opinion
                 is
                 not
                 improbable
              
               i
               .
               Methinks
               so
               many
               learned
               mens
               forsaking
               this
               Argument
               (
               who
               doubtless
               would
               have
               been
               right
               glad
               if
               it
               had
               been
               solid
               ,
               and
               imployed
               all
               their
               wits
               to
               search
               out
               the
               strength
               of
               it
               )
               is
               to
               me
               a
               convincing
               evidence
               of
               its
               weakness
               and
               vanity
               ,
               as
               also
               of
               the
               badness
               of
               your
               Cause
               ,
               that
               can
               find
               no
               better
               Argument
               ;
               yet
               I
               am
               willing
               to
               hear
               what
               you
               can
               say
               .
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               This
               then
               I
               say
               ,
               that
               these
               words
               ,
               
                 This
                 is
                 my
                 Body
              
               ,
               are
               to
               be
               taken
               in
               their
               proper
               ,
               and
               not
               in
               a
               figurative
               sense
               :
               for
               surely
               Christ
               would
               speak
               plainly
               to
               the
               understanding
               of
               his
               Disciples
               ,
               especially
               when
               
               he
               was
               so
               near
               his
               Death
               ,
               and
               making
               his
               last
               Will
               and
               Testament
               ,
               and
               instituting
               the
               Sacrament
               ;
               in
               such
               cases
               men
               use
               to
               speek
               plainly
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               I
               readily
               grant
               that
               Christ
               did
               speak
               plainly
               and
               intelligibly
               :
               But
               tell
               me
               ,
               is
               not
               that
               plain
               enough
               ,
               when
               we
               take
               the
               words
               as
               they
               are
               commonly
               used
               in
               Scripture
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               I
               must
               needs
               grant
               that
               ;
               but
               this
               is
               not
               the
               Present
               case
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               But
               it
               is
               ;
               for
               we
               can
               give
               you
               scores
               of
               instances
               ,
               as
               you
               very
               well
               know
               where
               the
               word
               Is
               ,
               is
               so
               taken
               :
               nor
               is
               any
               thing
               more
               frequent
               in
               Scripture
               ,
               
                 the
                 seven
                 kine
              
               ,
               and
               so
               
                 the
                 seven
                 ears
                 of
                 corn
                 ,
                 are
                 seven
                 years
                 ,
              
               Gen.
               4.
               12
               ,
               18.
               the
               
                 Stars
                 are
                 the
                 Angels
                 of
                 the
                 Churches
                 ,
              
               Rev.
               1.
               20.
               the
               
                 seven
                 heads
                 are
                 seven
                 Mountains
              
               ,
               Rev.
               17.
               9.
               
               So
               Christ
               saith
               ,
               
                 I
                 AM
                 the
                 way
                 ,
                 the
                 door
                 ,
                 &c.
              
               So
               
                 Zach.
                 5.
                 7
                 ,
                 8.
                 
                 This
                 woman
                 is
                 wickedness
              
               ;
               and
               a
               thousand
               such
               expressions
               .
               How
               do
               you
               understand
               these
               places
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               The
               sense
               is
               plain
               ,
               they
               signifie
               those
               things
               ;
               the
               Stars
               signifie
               the
               Angels
               ,
               and
               so
               for
               the
               rest
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               Then
               certainly
               we
               have
               the
               advantage
               of
               you
               in
               this
               point
               ,
               for
               we
               take
               is
               for
               signifies
               ,
               (
               as
               you
               confess
               it
               is
               commonly
               taken
               )
               nor
               have
               the
               Jews
               (
               as
               I
               have
               been
               assured
               by
               learned
               men
               )
               any
               proper
               
               word
               for
               signifie
               (
               as
               the
               Greeks
               and
               Lutines
               have
               )
               but
               generally
               express
               it
               in
               this
               manner
               :
               But
               you
               must
               take
               it
               (
               if
               the
               Particle
               this
               denote
               the
               Bread
               ,
               as
               I
               shall
               plainly
               prove
               it
               doth
               )
               for
               
                 is
                 converted
                 into
              
               ;
               a
               sense
               which
               you
               cannot
               give
               one
               example
               of
               in
               all
               Scripture
               .
               I
               see
               it
               was
               not
               without
               reason
               that
               you
               took
               the
               interpretation
               of
               Scripture
               into
               the
               Churches
               hands
               ▪
               for
               if
               you
               had
               left
               it
               in
               Gods
               hands
               ,
               and
               left
               one
               Scripture
               to
               do
               that
               friendly
               office
               to
               expound
               another
               ,
               you
               had
               certainly
               lost
               an
               Article
               of
               your
               Faith
               :
               And
               whereas
               you
               say
               that
               Christ
               would
               speak
               so
               as
               the
               Disciples
               might
               understand
               him
               ,
               that
               sufficiently
               shews
               ,
               that
               yours
               is
               not
               the
               true
               sense
               ;
               for
               they
               could
               never
               have
               understood
               it
               ,
               and
               would
               doubtless
               have
               been
               as
               much
               puzled
               then
               ,
               as
               all
               the
               World
               now
               is
               ,
               to
               apprehend
               that
               the
               body
               of
               Christ
               was
               contained
               under
               the
               species
               of
               Bread
               and
               Wine
               ,
               invisibly
               and
               undiscoverably
               ,
               after
               the
               manner
               of
               a
               Spirit
               ,
               to
               conceive
               of
               a
               body
               without
               bigness
               ,
               long
               without
               length
               ,
               broad
               without
               breadth
               ,
               broken
               whilest
               it
               remains
               whole
               (
               all
               which
               you
               profess
               to
               believe
               .
               )
               This
               is
               to
               turn
               Christs
               plain
               speech
               into
               a
               bundle
               of
               Riddles
               ;
               and
               to
               call
               this
               the
               plain
               sense
               of
               the
               words
               which
               is
               (
               as
               you
               see
               )
               a
               heap
               of
               Figures
               ,
               
               is
               a
               greater
               figure
               than
               all
               the
               rest
               ;
               but
               they
               did
               well
               enough
               understand
               the
               words
               in
               our
               sense
               ,
               because
               they
               were
               well
               read
               in
               Scripture
               ,
               wherein
               ,
               as
               you
               grant
               ,
               that
               sense
               of
               the
               words
               is
               usual
               .
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               If
               we
               grant
               it
               is
               used
               so
               in
               other
               cases
               ,
               yet
               not
               in
               Sacramental
               Texts
               ,
               for
               there
               Christ
               would
               speak
               properly
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               Yes
               ,
               It
               is
               usual
               even
               in
               the
               Sacraments
               ;
               Is
               not
               Circumcision
               called
               the
               Covenant
               ?
               
                 This
                 is
                 my
                 Covenant
              
               ,
               Gen.
               17.
               10.
               though
               proprerly
               it
               was
               not
               the
               Covenant
               ,
               but
               the
               Seal
               of
               it
               ,
               
                 Rom.
                 4.
                 11.
                 
                 Is
                 not
                 the
                 Lamb
                 called
                 the
                 Lords
                 Passeover
                 ?
                 Exod.
              
               12.
               though
               all
               men
               knew
               it
               was
               not
               
                 the
                 Lamb
              
               ,
               nor
               the
               ceremony
               of
               eating
               it
               ,
               which
               was
               or
               could
               be
               properly
               the
               Lords
               passing
               over
               the
               houses
               of
               the
               Israelites
               ;
               thus
               1
               
                 Cor.
                 10.
                 
                 The
                 Rock
                 (
                 that
                 followed
                 the
                 Israelites
                 )
                 is
                 Christ
                 ,
              
               though
               it
               was
               so
               only
               Figuratively
               and
               Sacramentally
               .
               Moreover
               ,
               I
               am
               told
               ,
               that
               divers
               of
               your
               own
               brethren
               acknowledge
               figures
               here
               .
               Tapperus
               saith
               ,
               
                 It
                 is
                 not
                 inconvenient
                 to
                 admit
                 of
                 Tropes
                 here
                 ,
                 provided
                 they
                 be
                 such
                 as
                 do
                 not
                 exclude
                 the
                 true
                 presence
                 of
                 Christs
                 body
              
               a
               .
               And
               that
               the
               Bishop
               of
               Eureux
               owns
               three
               Figures
               in
               the
               words
               of
               this
               Sacrament
               b
               ;
               and
               
               that
               Suarez
               c
               ,
               Bellarmine
               d
               ,
               and
               divers
               others
               confess
               as
               much
               .
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               It
               is
               true
               ,
               they
               do
               say
               so
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               Besides
               ,
               you
               cannot
               think
               strange
               ,
               if
               there
               be
               Figures
               in
               the
               first
               part
               ,
               
                 This
                 is
                 my
                 Body
              
               ,
               since
               it
               is
               most
               apparent
               there
               are
               Figures
               in
               the
               last
               part
               ,
               
                 This
                 is
                 the
                 New
                 Testament
                 in
                 my
                 bloud
                 .
              
               Here
               are
               not
               one
               ,
               but
               divers
               Figures
               in
               it
               .
               The
               Cup
               you
               grant
               is
               taken
               for
               the
               liquor
               in
               it
               ,
               there
               is
               one
               figure
               :
               The
               Wine
               in
               the
               Cup
               is
               taken
               for
               the
               Bloud
               ,
               which
               was
               not
               in
               the
               Cup
               ;
               there
               is
               a
               strange
               figure
               indeed
               (
               Logicians
               call
               it
               Non-sense
               .
               )
               This
               Cup
               ,
               or
               Wine
               ,
               or
               Bloud
               (
               if
               you
               please
               )
               is
               the
               New
               Testament
               or
               Covenant
               ;
               whereas
               it
               was
               only
               the
               Seal
               of
               the
               New
               Testament
               ,
               as
               is
               most
               manifest
               ,
               because
               it
               is
               called
               ,
               
                 The
                 Bloud
                 of
                 the
                 New
                 Testament
                 ,
                 and
                 the
                 New
                 Testament
                 in
                 my
                 Bloud
                 .
              
               Besides
               other
               strange
               figures
               ,
               which
               I
               shall
               have
               occasion
               to
               speak
               to
               by
               and
               by
               .
               Here
               is
               figure
               upon
               figure
               ,
               and
               yet
               you
               have
               the
               impudence
               to
               reproach
               us
               for
               putting
               in
               but
               one
               figure
               ,
               which
               you
               confess
               to
               be
               very
               frequent
               .
               Wonder
               O
               
               Heavens
               ,
               and
               judge
               O
               Earth
               ,
               whether
               these
               men
               do
               not
               strain
               at
               Gnats
               ,
               and
               swallow
               Camels
               !
               And
               nothing
               doth
               more
               confirm
               the
               truth
               in
               this
               point
               ,
               than
               to
               consider
               into
               what
               absurdities
               this
               Doctrine
               hath
               forced
               you
               ,
               even
               to
               say
               ,
               that
               
                 the
                 Bloud
                 of
                 Christ
                 is
                 properly
                 the
                 Covenant
                 or
                 Testament
              
               *
               :
               And
               that
               there
               are
               
                 two
                 sorts
                 of
                 Christs
                 Bloud
                 ,
                 the
                 one
                 in
                 the
                 Cup
                 ,
                 the
                 other
                 shed
                 on
                 the
                 Cross
              
               a
               :
               
                 And
                 that
                 the
                 Bloud
                 of
                 Christ
                 is
                 shed
                 in
                 the
                 Sacrament
                 ,
              
               and
               yet
               never
               stirreth
               out
               of
               the
               veins
               :
               Did
               ever
               God
               or
               man
               speak
               of
               such
               bloud-shed
               ?
               therefore
               for
               shame
               never
               charge
               us
               with
               understanding
               this
               Text
               figuratively
               .
               But
               again
               ,
               let
               me
               ask
               you
               ,
               Will
               you
               affirm
               that
               these
               words
               ,
               
                 This
                 is
                 my
                 body
              
               ,
               are
               to
               be
               taken
               properly
               ?
               Doth
               your
               Church
               understand
               them
               so
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               Yes
               surely
               ,
               or
               else
               we
               do
               ill
               to
               reproach
               you
               for
               taking
               them
               improperly
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               The
               words
               are
               not
               true
               in
               a
               proper
               sense
               ,
               nor
               indeed
               do
               you
               understand
               them
               so
               .
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               Make
               that
               good
               ,
               and
               I
               must
               give
               up
               this
               cause
               for
               ever
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               First
               ,
               for
               the
               word
               this
               ,
               it
               is
               most
               
               evident
               that
               it
               is
               meant
               of
               Bread
               :
               It
               is
               impossible
               for
               words
               to
               express
               any
               thing
               more
               plainly
               ,
               than
               that
               by
               this
               ,
               is
               meant
               the
               Bread.
               It
               is
               said
               expresly
               ,
               that
               
                 Christ
                 took
                 Bread
                 and
                 brake
                 it
                 ,
                 and
                 gave
                 it
                 ,
                 and
                 said
                 ,
                 Take
                 eat
                 ,
              
               THIS
               
                 is
                 my
                 Body
              
               .
               Where
               this
               necessarily
               relates
               to
               that
               which
               Christ
               ,
               took
               ,
               and
               brake
               ,
               and
               gave
               .
               After
               Christ
               came
               the
               Apostles
               ,
               and
               particularly
               Saint
               Paul
               ,
               and
               he
               expounds
               the
               mind
               of
               Christ
               (
               and
               I
               hope
               you
               do
               not
               think
               he
               was
               so
               bad
               an
               Expositor
               ,
               that
               his
               Comment
               was
               harder
               than
               the
               Text
               )
               and
               he
               tells
               us
               thrice
               in
               a
               breath
               that
               it
               is
               Bread
               ,
               1
               Cor.
               11.
               26.
               
               
                 As
                 oft
                 as
                 you
                 eat
                 this
                 Bread
                 ,
              
               and
               
                 whosoever
                 shall
                 eat
                 this
                 Bread
              
               ,
               and
               
                 so
                 let
                 him
                 eat
                 of
                 that
                 Bread.
              
               And
               again
               ,
               1
               Cor.
               10.
               16.
               
               
                 The
                 Bread
                 which
                 we
                 break
                 ,
                 is
                 it
                 not
                 the
                 Communion
                 of
                 the
                 Body
                 of
                 Christ
                 ?
              
               And
               the
               participation
               of
               the
               Sacrament
               is
               called
               ,
               
                 breaking
                 of
                 Bread
              
               ,
               Acts
               2.
               46.
               
               &
               20.
               7.
               which
               your
               Authors
               undertand
               of
               the
               Sacrament
               :
               and
               besides
               this
               ,
               whatever
               it
               is
               ,
               is
               broken
               ,
               as
               it
               follows
               ;
               but
               you
               dare
               not
               say
               ,
               Christs
               Body
               is
               broken
               .
               Now
               then
               ,
               since
               it
               is
               most
               evident
               ,
               that
               this
               is
               meant
               of
               the
               Bread
               ,
               I
               hope
               ,
               you
               will
               not
               say
               ,
               this
               is
               properly
               Christs
               Body
               .
            
          
           
             
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               No
               :
               We
               are
               not
               so
               absurd
               to
               say
               ,
               this
               Bread
               is
               Christs
               body
               ,
               for
               that
               is
               false
               and
               against
               common
               sense
               as
               Bellarmine
               well
               saith
               a
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               What
               then
               do
               you
               mean
               by
               the
               word
               this
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               By
               This
               ,
               I
               understand
               neither
               the
               Bread
               nor
               Christs
               Body
               ,
               but
               in
               general
               this
               substance
               which
               is
               contained
               under
               this
               species
               b
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               What
               do
               you
               mean
               by
               that
               ?
               I
               pray
               you
               tell
               me
               ,
               Do
               you
               believe
               that
               there
               are
               any
               more
               substances
               under
               those
               species
               ,
               besides
               the
               Bread
               first
               ,
               and
               afterward
               the
               Body
               of
               Christ
               ?
               Do
               not
               you
               profess
               ,
               that
               as
               soon
               as
               ever
               it
               ceaseth
               to
               be
               Bread
               ,
               it
               becomes
               the
               Body
               of
               Christ
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               We
               do
               so
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               Then
               surely
               if
               it
               be
               a
               substance
               ,
               according
               to
               you
               ,
               it
               must
               be
               either
               Bread
               ,
               or
               the
               Body
               of
               Christ
               ;
               but
               you
               allow
               it
               to
               be
               neither
               ,
               and
               therefore
               it
               is
               no
               substance
               at
               all
               .
               In
               the
               next
               place
               ,
               for
               the
               word
               is
               ,
               I
               have
               shewed
               ,
               you
               do
               not
               understand
               that
               properly
               neither
               :
               but
               for
               the
               word
               Body
               also
               ,
               do
               you
               understand
               that
               properly
               ?
            
          
           
             
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               Yes
               without
               doubt
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               I
               am
               told
               that
               your
               Church
               professeth
               to
               believe
               that
               Christs
               body
               is
               there
               after
               the
               manner
               of
               a
               spirit
               ,
               taking
               up
               no
               room
               ;
               that
               head
               ,
               hands
               ,
               feet
               ,
               are
               altogether
               in
               the
               least
               crumb
               of
               the
               Host.
               Is
               this
               true
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               Yes
               ,
               we
               all
               agree
               in
               that
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               Then
               sure
               I
               am
               ,
               the
               word
               Body
               is
               most
               improperly
               taken
               :
               A
               learned
               man
               well
               observes
               ,
               that
               
                 you
                 plead
                 for
                 the
                 propriety
                 of
                 words
                 ,
                 and
                 destroy
                 the
                 propriety
                 of
                 things
              
               ;
               *
               How
               can
               you
               say
               that
               it
               is
               properly
               a
               body
               ,
               which
               wants
               the
               essential
               property
               of
               a
               body
               ;
               which
               is
               ,
               to
               have
               quantity
               and
               take
               up
               room
               :
               Take
               away
               this
               ,
               and
               the
               body
               may
               be
               properly
               a
               spirit
               ;
               for
               it
               is
               that
               only
               which
               differenceth
               it
               from
               a
               spirit
               :
               So
               now
               I
               see
               you
               neither
               do
               ,
               nor
               can
               understand
               these
               words
               properly
               ;
               and
               upon
               the
               whole
               matter
               that
               this
               Doctrine
               is
               false
               ,
               and
               your
               Proofs
               most
               weak
               and
               frivolous
               ,
               you
               shall
               see
               that
               I
               have
               better
               arguments
               against
               your
               Doctrine
               than
               you
               have
               for
               it
               .
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               I
               pray
               you
               let
               me
               hear
               them
               ,
               but
               be
               brief
               in
               them
               .
            
          
           
             
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               I
               have
               only
               three
               Arguments
               ,
               your
               Doctrine
               is
               against
               Sense
               ,
               against
               Reason
               ,
               and
               against
               Scripture
               .
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               Let
               me
               see
               how
               you
               will
               make
               these
               things
               good
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               For
               the
               first
               I
               ask
               you
               ,
               if
               I
               am
               as
               sure
               that
               your
               Doctrine
               of
               Transubstantiation
               is
               false
               ,
               as
               you
               are
               sure
               that
               the
               Christian
               Religion
               is
               true
               ;
               will
               you
               desire
               more
               evidence
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               If
               I
               should
               ,
               I
               were
               an
               unreasonable
               person
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               And
               have
               you
               any
               greater
               assurance
               now
               of
               the
               truth
               of
               the
               Christian
               Religion
               ,
               than
               you
               could
               have
               had
               ,
               if
               you
               had
               lived
               in
               Christs
               dayes
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               That
               were
               impudence
               to
               affirm
               :
               but
               what
               do
               you
               mean
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               If
               you
               had
               lived
               then
               ,
               what
               greater
               evidence
               could
               you
               have
               had
               of
               it
               ,
               than
               what
               your
               senses
               afforded
               ;
               for
               since
               the
               great
               Argument
               for
               Christianity
               (
               as
               all
               agree
               )
               was
               the
               words
               that
               Christ
               spake
               and
               the
               works
               that
               Christ
               did
               ;
               how
               could
               you
               be
               sure
               that
               he
               did
               so
               speak
               ,
               or
               so
               work
               ,
               if
               you
               may
               not
               credit
               the
               reports
               of
               your
               eyes
               and
               ears
               ?
               This
               was
               S.
               Lukes
               great
               evidence
               of
               the
               truth
               of
               what
               he
               writes
               ,
               that
               
                 it
                 was
                 delivered
                 to
                 him
                 by
                 eye-witnesses
                 ,
              
               S.
               Luke
               1.
               1
               ,
               2.
               and
               St.
               Johns
               
               
                 what
                 we
                 have
                 seen
                 with
                 our
                 eyes
                 ,
                 and
                 our
                 hands
                 have
                 handled
                 of
                 the
                 Word
                 of
                 life
                 :
              
               1
               John
               1.
               
               And
               St.
               Paul
               for
               Christs
               Resurrection
               ,
               that
               
                 he
                 was
                 seen
                 of
              
               Cephas
               ,
               
                 then
                 of
                 the
                 twelve
                 ,
                 then
                 of
                 the
              
               500
               ,
               1
               Cor.
               15.
               5
               ,
               6.
               
               Even
               Thomas
               his
               Infidelity
               yielded
               to
               this
               argument
               ,
               that
               if
               
                 he
                 did
                 thrust
                 his
                 hand
                 into
                 Christs
                 side
                 he
                 would
                 believe
                 ,
              
               John
               20.
               25.
               
               Christ
               judged
               this
               a
               convincing
               argument
               ,
               when
               the
               Apostles
               thought
               he
               had
               been
               a
               Spirit
               ,
               
                 handle
                 me
                 and
                 see
                 ,
                 for
                 a
                 Spirit
                 hath
                 not
                 flesh
                 and
                 bones
                 ,
              
               as
               you
               see
               me
               have
               ,
               Luk.
               24.
               39.
               
               Are
               these
               things
               true
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               I
               cannot
               deny
               it
               ,
               they
               are
               not
               yours
               ,
               but
               Scripture
               assertions
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               And
               do
               not
               all
               my
               senses
               tell
               me
               that
               this
               is
               Bread
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               I
               must
               grant
               that
               ,
               but
               your
               sense
               is
               deceived
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               Then
               your
               senses
               also
               might
               have
               been
               deceived
               about
               the
               words
               and
               works
               of
               Christ
               ,
               and
               so
               the
               greatest
               evidence
               of
               Christian
               Religion
               is
               lost
               :
               but
               for
               my
               part
               it
               makes
               me
               abhor
               your
               Religion
               ;
               that
               so
               you
               may
               but
               seem
               to
               defend
               your
               own
               opinions
               ,
               you
               care
               not
               if
               you
               shake
               the
               pillars
               of
               Christianity
               :
               My
               second
               Argument
               is
               ,
               that
               your
               Doctrine
               of
               Transubstantiation
               is
               against
               reason
               .
               Tell
               me
               I
               pray
               you
               ,
               do
               you
               think
               any
               of
               the
               Articles
               
               of
               Christian
               Religion
               are
               contrary
               to
               reason
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               No
               ,
               they
               may
               be
               above
               reason
               ,
               but
               God
               forbid
               I
               should
               be
               so
               injurious
               to
               Christianity
               to
               say
               any
               of
               them
               are
               against
               reason
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               But
               your
               doctrine
               is
               as
               much
               against
               reason
               as
               sense
               ,
               for
               it
               makes
               you
               believe
               things
               absolutely
               impossible
               ,
               and
               gross
               contradictions
               .
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               You
               may
               imagine
               many
               things
               impossible
               that
               really
               are
               not
               so
               :
               but
               if
               you
               can
               prove
               any
               real
               impossibilities
               which
               this
               doctrine
               forceth
               us
               to
               believe
               I
               must
               yield
               ,
               for
               we
               joyn
               with
               you
               in
               condemning
               the
               Lutheran
               opinion
               that
               Christs
               Body
               is
               every
               where
               ,
               because
               it
               is
               an
               impossibility
               ,
               and
               we
               therefore
               expound
               those
               words
               ,
               
                 I
                 am
                 the
                 Vine
                 ,
                 I
                 am
                 a
                 door
                 ,
              
               &c.
               figuratively
               ,
               because
               it
               is
               impossible
               for
               him
               who
               is
               a
               man
               ,
               to
               be
               a
               vine
               ,
               or
               a
               door
               .
               a
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               And
               it
               is
               no
               less
               impossible
               for
               the
               Bread
               to
               be
               Christs
               Body
               :
               Why
               might
               not
               the
               Vine
               ,
               (
               as
               well
               as
               the
               Wine
               )
               be
               by
               Transubstantiation
               ,
               converted
               into
               Christs
               Substance
               ?
               I
               think
               the
               Mother
               is
               as
               good
               as
               the
               Daughter
               ,
               and
               especially
               since
               Christ
               saith
               ,
               
                 I
                 am
                 the
                 true
                 Vine
              
               ,
               you
               might
               as
               well
               have
               devised
               another
               transubstantiation
               
               to
               make
               Christs
               words
               good
               ,
               I
               know
               what
               work
               you
               would
               have
               made
               of
               it
               ,
               if
               he
               had
               said
               ,
               
                 This
                 is
                 my
                 TRVE
                 Body
                 ,
                 or
                 my
                 TRVE
                 Blood.
                 
              
            
             
               But
               to
               give
               that
               over
               ,
               I
               will
               shew
               you
               ,
               that
               there
               is
               such
               an
               heap
               of
               contradictions
               ,
               as
               never
               met
               together
               ,
               in
               the
               most
               absurd
               opinion
               that
               ever
               was
               in
               the
               world
               :
               I
               profess
               (
               when
               I
               set
               my
               wit
               at
               work
               )
               I
               cannot
               devise
               greater
               absurdities
               than
               you
               believe
               .
               Tell
               me
               ,
               do
               you
               hold
               that
               the
               whole
               Body
               of
               Christ
               is
               present
               in
               every
               crumb
               of
               the
               Bread
               ,
               and
               in
               every
               drop
               of
               the
               Wine
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               Yes
               doubtless
               ,
               Christ
               is
               there
               entire
               ,
               and
               undivided
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               I
               suppose
               you
               believe
               that
               Christs
               Body
               is
               in
               Heaven
               ,
               in
               such
               a
               proportion
               ,
               or
               bigness
               ,
               as
               he
               had
               upon
               Earth
               .
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               No
               doubt
               of
               that
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               Then
               the
               same
               Body
               of
               Christ
               is
               bigger
               than
               it self
               ,
               and
               longer
               than
               its
               self
               ,
               and
               which
               is
               yet
               worse
               ,
               Christ
               is
               divided
               from
               himself
               .
               I
               know
               not
               what
               can
               be
               more
               impossible
               ,
               than
               to
               say
               ,
               that
               all
               Christ
               is
               at
               Rome
               ,
               and
               all
               at
               London
               ,
               and
               all
               in
               Heaven
               ,
               and
               yet
               not
               in
               the
               places
               between
               .
            
          
           
             
               Pop
               :
            
             
               All
               this
               is
               by
               Gods
               Almighty
               Power
               .
            
          
           
             
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               Then
               I
               suppose
               ,
               by
               the
               same
               Almighty
               Power
               ,
               it
               is
               possible
               for
               any
               other
               man
               to
               be
               in
               so
               many
               places
               ;
               for
               it
               matters
               not
               that
               Christ
               be
               invisibly
               in
               so
               many
               places
               ,
               and
               another
               should
               be
               there
               visibly
               ,
               or
               that
               Christ
               is
               there
               in
               so
               little
               a
               bulk
               ,
               and
               another
               must
               be
               in
               a
               greater
               .
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               I
               must
               needs
               grant
               that
               ,
               and
               I
               affirm
               it
               is
               not
               absolutely
               impossible
               for
               any
               other
               man
               to
               be
               at
               several
               places
               at
               once
               by
               Gods
               Power
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               Then
               mark
               what
               monsters
               follow
               from
               this
               :
               suppose
               now
               Iohn
               to
               be
               by
               divine
               Power
               at
               the
               same
               time
               at
               Rome
               ,
               at
               Paris
               ,
               and
               at
               London
               ;
               where
               ever
               Iohn
               is
               alive
               ,
               I
               suppose
               ,
               he
               hath
               a
               power
               to
               move
               himself
               .
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               That
               must
               needs
               be
               ,
               else
               he
               were
               not
               a
               living
               Creature
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               Then
               Iohn
               at
               Rome
               may
               walk
               towards
               London
               ,
               and
               Iohn
               at
               London
               may
               walk
               toward
               Rome
               ,
               and
               so
               they
               may
               meet
               (
               shall
               I
               say
               ,
               
                 one
                 the
                 other
              
               ?
               )
               and
               you
               may
               be
               sure
               it
               will
               be
               a
               merry
               meeting
               :
               It
               were
               worth
               enquiry
               ,
               how
               long
               they
               will
               be
               e're
               they
               come
               together
               .
               Then
               again
               ,
               at
               Rome
               all
               the
               parts
               of
               Iohn
               may
               be
               excessively
               hot
               ,
               and
               at
               London
               excessively
               cold
               ,
               and
               at
               Paris
               neither
               hot
               nor
               cold
               :
               This
               is
               beyond
               all
               the
               Romances
               that
               ever
               were
               
               devised
               .
               Besides
               ,
               Iohn
               may
               be
               sorely
               wounded
               at
               Rome
               ,
               and
               yet
               at
               London
               he
               may
               sleep
               in
               a
               whole
               skin
               ;
               Iohn
               may
               be
               feasting
               at
               Rome
               ,
               and
               fasting
               at
               London
               in
               the
               same
               moment
               .
               I
               might
               be
               infinite
               in
               reckoning
               the
               horrid
               absurdities
               of
               this
               Doctrine
               ;
               he
               that
               can
               believe
               these
               things
               ,
               will
               stick
               at
               nothing
               .
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               You
               talk
               at
               this
               rate
               ,
               because
               you
               measure
               God
               by
               your selves
               ,
               whereas
               he
               can
               do
               more
               than
               you
               or
               I
               can
               think
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               There
               are
               some
               things
               which
               it
               is
               no
               dishonour
               to
               God
               ,
               to
               say
               he
               cannot
               do
               them
               ,
               because
               they
               are
               either
               sinful
               (
               so
               God
               cannot
               lie
               )
               or
               absolutely
               impossible
               ;
               God
               himself
               cannot
               make
               a
               man
               to
               be
               alive
               and
               dead
               at
               the
               same
               time
               :
               God
               cannot
               make
               the
               whole
               to
               be
               less
               than
               a
               part
               of
               it
               :
               he
               cannot
               make
               three
               to
               be
               more
               than
               threescore
               :
               he
               cannot
               make
               a
               Son
               to
               beget
               his
               Father
               :
               he
               cannot
               make
               the
               same
               man
               to
               be
               born
               at
               two
               several
               times
               (
               as
               your
               Authors
               confess
               )
               ;
               and
               therefore
               in
               like
               manner
               he
               cannot
               make
               the
               same
               body
               to
               be
               in
               two
               several
               places
               ;
               for
               this
               is
               not
               one
               jot
               less
               impossible
               than
               the
               other
               .
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               These
               indeed
               are
               great
               difficulties
               to
               humane
               reason
               ,
               but
               reason
               is
               not
               to
               be
               believed
               against
               Scripture
               .
            
          
           
             
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               True
               ,
               but
               this
               is
               your
               hard
               hap
               ;
               this
               Doctrine
               of
               yours
               is
               against
               Scripture
               as
               well
               as
               Reason
               ,
               and
               indeed
               against
               many
               Articles
               of
               Religion
               .
            
             
               And
               first
               ,
               it
               is
               against
               the
               Scripture
               ,
               in
               as
               much
               as
               it
               is
               highly
               dishonourable
               to
               Christ
               ,
               whose
               honour
               is
               the
               great
               design
               of
               the
               Scripture
               .
               What
               a
               foul
               dishonour
               is
               it
               to
               him
               to
               subject
               him
               to
               the
               will
               of
               every
               Mass
               Priest
               ,
               who
               ,
               when
               he
               pleaseth
               ,
               can
               command
               him
               down
               into
               the
               Bread
               ?
               What
               a
               dishonour
               is
               it
               ,
               
                 that
                 the
                 very
                 Body
                 of
                 Christ
                 may
                 be
                 eaten
                 by
                 Rats
                 or
                 Worms
                 ,
                 and
                 may
                 be
                 cast
                 up
                 by
                 Vomit
                 ,
              
               and
               the
               like
               ,
               as
               your
               Aquinas
               affirms
               a
               .
               And
               that
               your
               Church
               in
               her
               Missals
               hath
               put
               this
               amongst
               other
               directions
               ,
               that
               if
               
                 worms
                 or
                 Rats
                 have
                 eaten
                 Christ
                 Body
                 ,
                 they
                 must
                 be
                 burned
                 ;
                 and
                 if
                 any
                 man
                 vomit
                 it
                 up
                 ,
                 it
                 must
                 be
                 eaten
                 again
                 ,
                 or
                 burned
                 ,
                 or
                 made
                 a
                 Relick
              
               ;
               b
               and
               yet
               this
               is
               no
               more
               than
               your
               Doctrine
               will
               force
               you
               to
               own
               :
               for
               if
               you
               will
               believe
               Christs
               words
               ,
               in
               one
               place
               as
               well
               as
               in
               another
               ,
               he
               assureth
               us
               ,
               that
               whatsoever
               (
               without
               exception
               )
               
                 entreth
                 into
                 the
                 mouth
                 ,
                 goeth
                 into
                 the
                 belly
                 ,
                 and
                 is
                 cast
                 forth
                 into
                 the
                 draught
                 ,
              
               Matth.
               15.
               17.
               
            
          
           
             
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               This
               is
               no
               more
               dishonourable
               to
               Christ
               than
               that
               the
               Fleas
               might
               such
               his
               Blood
               when
               he
               was
               upon
               earth
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               You
               mistake
               wofully
               ;
               for
               though
               in
               the
               dayes
               of
               his
               flesh
               ,
               it
               was
               no
               dishonor
               to
               him
               (
               and
               it
               was
               necessary
               for
               us
               )
               that
               he
               suffered
               so
               many
               indignities
               ,
               and
               died
               ,
               and
               was
               crucified
               ,
               yet
               now
               ,
               that
               he
               is
               risen
               from
               the
               dead
               ,
               
                 he
                 dies
                 no
                 more
              
               ,
               Rom.
               6.
               and
               it
               is
               a
               dishonour
               to
               him
               to
               be
               crucified
               again
               ,
               and
               to
               be
               brought
               back
               to
               those
               reproaches
               which
               he
               long
               since
               left
               ;
               and
               all
               this
               to
               no
               purpose
               ,
               and
               without
               any
               profit
               to
               us
               ,
               (
               as
               I
               shewed
               .
               )
               Again
               ,
               the
               Scripture
               approveth
               and
               useth
               this
               argument
               ,
               that
               a
               body
               cannot
               be
               in
               two
               places
               at
               once
               :
               it
               is
               the
               Angels
               argument
               ,
               
                 He
                 is
                 not
                 here
                 ,
                 for
                 he
                 is
                 risen
                 ,
              
               Mat.
               28.
               6.
               sufficiently
               implying
               ,
               that
               he
               could
               not
               be
               here
               and
               there
               too
               :
               or
               must
               we
               say
               ,
               that
               the
               Angels
               argument
               is
               weak
               or
               deceitful
               ,
               that
               yours
               may
               be
               strong
               and
               true
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               He
               meant
               he
               was
               not
               there
               visibly
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               It
               seems
               ,
               if
               a
               man
               being
               sought
               after
               should
               hide
               himself
               with
               you
               in
               some
               corner
               or
               hole
               in
               your
               room
               ,
               and
               the
               pursuers
               should
               ask
               for
               him
               ,
               you
               could
               answer
               with
               good
               Conscience
               ,
               
                 He
                 is
                 not
                 here
              
               ,
               because
               he
               is
               invisible
               .
               Our
               Blessed
               Saviour
               every
               where
               makes
               these
               two
               
               opposite
               ,
               his
               being
               in
               the
               world
               ,
               and
               going
               to
               heaven
               ,
               Joh.
               13.
               1.
               
               
                 The
                 hour
                 was
                 come
                 that
                 he
                 should
                 depart
                 out
                 of
                 this
                 world
                 unto
                 the
                 Father
                 :
              
               It
               seems
               you
               could
               have
               taught
               him
               the
               art
               of
               going
               thither
               ,
               and
               keeping
               here
               too
               .
               I
               promise
               you
               ,
               I
               durst
               not
               venture
               to
               buy
               an
               Estate
               of
               any
               of
               you
               ,
               for
               it
               seems
               you
               could
               tell
               how
               to
               sell
               it
               to
               me
               ,
               and
               keep
               it
               to
               your selves
               .
               You
               may
               remember
               ,
               once
               you
               and
               I
               made
               our selves
               merry
               with
               a
               passage
               that
               one
               used
               in
               a
               speech
               ;
               that
               since
               he
               could
               not
               give
               content
               ,
               neither
               by
               going
               nor
               staying
               ,
               hereafter
               he
               would
               neither
               go
               nor
               stay
               .
               It
               seems
               you
               have
               as
               good
               a
               faculty
               as
               he
               had
               ;
               for
               you
               know
               how
               a
               man
               may
               both
               
                 go
                 from
                 a
                 place
              
               ,
               and
               
                 stay
                 in
                 it
              
               ,
               at
               the
               same
               time
               .
               I
               know
               not
               what
               can
               be
               more
               plain
               if
               you
               did
               not
               shut
               your
               eyes
               :
               Christ
               saith
               expresly
               ,
               
                 me
                 you
                 have
                 not
                 alwayes
              
               ,
               that
               is
               ,
               
                 here
                 ,
                 Mat.
              
               26.
               11.
               
               Besides
               ,
               your
               doctrine
               destroyes
               the
               truth
               of
               Christs
               Humane
               Nature
               .
               I
               read
               of
               Christ
               ,
               that
               
                 he
                 was
                 in
                 all
                 points
                 like
                 unto
                 us
                 ,
                 sin
                 only
                 excepted
              
               ;
               his
               Body
               was
               like
               ours
               ,
               and
               therefore
               it
               is
               impossible
               it
               should
               be
               in
               a
               thousand
               several
               places
               at
               once
               (
               as
               you
               pretend
               it
               is
               ;
               )
               this
               turns
               Christs
               Body
               into
               a
               Spirit
               :
               nay
               ,
               indeed
               you
               make
               his
               body
               more
               spiritual
               than
               a
               Spirit
               ;
               for
               a
               Spirit
               cannot
               be
               in
               several
               
               places
               divided
               from
               it self
               .
               The
               soul
               of
               man
               ,
               if
               it
               be
               entire
               both
               in
               the
               whole
               and
               in
               every
               part
               of
               the
               body
               ,
               yet
               it
               is
               not
               divided
               from
               it self
               ,
               nor
               from
               its
               body
               ,
               nor
               can
               it
               be
               in
               two
               several
               bodies
               at
               the
               same
               time
               ,
               as
               all
               confess
               ;
               and
               much
               less
               can
               it
               be
               in
               ten
               thousand
               bodies
               at
               once
               (
               as
               by
               your
               Argument
               undoubtedly
               it
               may
               )
               .
               When
               ever
               an
               Angel
               comes
               to
               earth
               ,
               he
               leaves
               heaven
               :
               and
               so
               this
               every
               way
               destroyes
               the
               truth
               of
               Christs
               Humane
               body
               .
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               Much
               of
               what
               you
               say
               was
               true
               of
               Christs
               Body
               in
               the
               dayes
               of
               his
               infirmity
               ;
               but
               when
               he
               was
               risen
               from
               the
               dead
               ,
               then
               he
               received
               a
               Spiritual
               Body
               ,
               as
               it
               is
               said
               ,
               ours
               shall
               be
               at
               the
               resurrection
               ,
               1
               Cor.
               15.
               
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               To
               this
               I
               answer
               ,
               First
               ,
               that
               you
               ascribe
               these
               monstrous
               properties
               to
               Christs
               Body
               before
               its
               Resurrection
               ;
               for
               you
               say
               ,
               The
               Flesh
               and
               Bloud
               of
               Christ
               were
               really
               in
               the
               Sacrament
               ,
               which
               the
               Disciples
               received
               while
               Christ
               lived
               .
               Secondly
               ,
               Christs
               Resurrection
               ,
               though
               it
               heightned
               the
               perfections
               ,
               yet
               it
               did
               not
               alter
               the
               Nature
               and
               Properties
               of
               his
               Body
               ,
               nor
               give
               it
               the
               being
               of
               a
               Spirit
               ;
               for
               after
               he
               was
               risen
               ,
               he
               proves
               that
               he
               was
               no
               Spirit
               ,
               by
               this
               Argument
               ,
               
                 Handle
                 me
                 and
                 see
                 ,
                 for
                 a
                 Spirit
                 hath
                 not
                 flesh
                 
                 and
                 bones
                 ,
                 as
                 you
                 see
                 me
                 have
                 ,
              
               Luke
               24.
               39.
               
               By
               this
               it
               appears
               ,
               that
               your
               Doctrine
               destroys
               the
               Truth
               of
               Christs
               Humanity
               ,
               at
               least
               it
               destroys
               the
               main
               evidence
               of
               it
               (
               against
               those
               who
               affirmed
               ,
               that
               Christ
               had
               only
               a
               phantastical
               Body
               )
               namely
               ,
               that
               he
               was
               seen
               ,
               and
               felt
               ,
               and
               heard
               ;
               for
               you
               say
               ,
               sense
               is
               not
               to
               be
               believed
               .
               Again
               ,
               you
               destroy
               the
               truth
               of
               Christs
               ascension
               into
               Heaven
               .
               For
               Christ
               is
               not
               ascended
               if
               he
               hath
               not
               left
               the
               world
               ;
               for
               these
               two
               are
               joyned
               together
               ,
               
                 Ioh.
                 16.
                 28.
                 
                 I
                 leave
                 the
                 world
                 ,
                 and
                 go
                 to
                 the
                 Father
                 :
              
               but
               if
               you
               say
               true
               ,
               he
               hath
               not
               left
               the
               world
               ,
               but
               is
               here
               in
               every
               Sacrament
               ;
               nothing
               can
               be
               more
               plain
               ,
               than
               that
               Christ
               did
               visibly
               and
               locally
               leave
               this
               world
               when
               he
               went
               up
               into
               heaven
               ,
               Acts
               1.
               9
               ,
               10.
               that
               being
               once
               there
               ,
               
                 the
                 heavens
                 must
                 receive
              
               (
               or
               
                 contain
                 )
                 him
                 ,
                 until
                 the
                 time
                 of
                 the
                 restitution
                 of
                 all
                 things
                 ,
              
               Acts
               3.
               21.
               and
               that
               at
               the
               last
               day
               he
               shall
               come
               visibly
               and
               locally
               from
               heaven
               ,
               2
               Thess.
               1.
               7.
               but
               that
               he
               should
               come
               down
               a
               thousand
               times
               in
               a
               day
               ,
               at
               the
               command
               of
               every
               Mass-Priest
               ,
               is
               such
               a
               dream
               ,
               as
               the
               Scripture
               speaks
               not
               one
               syllable
               of
               ,
               nor
               can
               any
               rational
               man
               believe
               it
               :
               Moreover
               ,
               your
               Doctrine
               destroys
               the
               very
               Essence
               of
               a
               Sacrament
               ,
               which
               consists
               of
               two
               parts
               ,
               an
               
               outward
               element
               or
               sign
               ,
               and
               the
               inward
               grace
               signified
               by
               it
               ;
               and
               this
               I
               am
               told
               your
               Doctors
               acknowledge
               a
               I
               shall
               forbear
               mentioning
               further
               particulars
               ,
               these
               are
               more
               than
               enough
               to
               shew
               the
               falseness
               of
               this
               Doctrine
               of
               Transubstantiation
               .
            
             
               In
               the
               next
               place
               ,
               pray
               let
               me
               hear
               what
               you
               have
               to
               say
               for
               your
               great
               Article
               of
               praying
               to
               Saints
               .
            
             
               But
               ,
               first
               ,
               I
               am
               told
               divers
               of
               your
               own
               Authors
               confess
               ,
               it
               is
               not
               necessary
               to
               pray
               to
               Saints
               ,
               but
               only
               convenient
               :
               Is
               it
               so
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               It
               is
               true
               ;
               and
               ,
               I
               must
               confess
               ,
               the
               Council
               of
               Trent
               do
               only
               say
               ,
               
                 it
                 is
                 good
                 and
                 profitable
              
               .
               b
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               Then
               sure
               ,
               I
               will
               never
               run
               the
               hazard
               of
               committing
               Idolatry
               for
               an
               unnecessary
               work
               .
               But
               I
               am
               further
               told
               ,
               that
               your
               great
               Scholar
               and
               Wit
               ,
               Perron
               confesseth
               ,
               That
               
                 he
                 found
                 no
                 footsteps
                 of
                 this
                 praying
                 to
                 Saints
                 ,
                 either
                 in
                 Scripture
                 ,
                 or
                 in
                 the
                 Fathers
                 ,
                 before
                 the
                 four
                 first
                 Councils
                 ,
              
               (
               which
               was
               some
               hundreds
               of
               years
               after
               Christ.
               c
               He
               confessed
               likewise
               to
               
                 Isaac
                 Casaubone
              
               ,
               (
               as
               he
               told
               our
               Bishop
               Andrews
               )
               that
               he
               himself
               never
               prayed
               to
               Saints
               ,
               
               but
               only
               as
               he
               went
               in
               Procession
               
                 that
                 is
              
               for
               form
               sake
               .
               
                 Andr.
                 in
                 Opusc.
                 Posthuma
              
               ,
               and
               that
               Salm●ron
               ,
               and
               Cotton
               ,
               a
               and
               Eccius
               say
               as
               much
               in
               effect
               ,
               viz.
               That
               
                 there
                 is
                 no
                 command
                 for
                 this
                 in
                 either
                 Testament
                 .
              
               Is
               it
               so
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               
                 It
                 is
                 true
                 ;
                 and
              
               Bellarmine
               
                 confesseth
                 ,
                 That
              
               the
               Saints
               began
               to
               be
               worshipt
               ,
               not
               so
               much
               by
               any
               Law
               ,
               as
               by
               Custome
               b
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               Methinks
               these
               two
               Considerations
               should
               startle
               you
               ,
               that
               it
               is
               both
               unnecessary
               and
               uncommanded
               .
               I
               perceive
               I
               am
               not
               like
               to
               hear
               Scripture
               Arguments
               in
               this
               point
               .
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               Some
               of
               our
               Authors
               do
               urge
               some
               Scriptures
               ,
               but
               you
               tie
               me
               up
               to
               use
               but
               few
               ,
               and
               those
               the
               best
               Arguments
               ;
               and
               therefore
               I
               will
               rather
               urge
               other
               Considerations
               .
            
             
               1.
               
               Humility
               and
               Discretion
               adviseth
               us
               to
               this
               duty
               ,
               for
               I
               suppose
               ,
               if
               you
               have
               any
               request
               to
               the
               King
               ,
               you
               do
               not
               sawcily
               rush
               into
               his
               presence
               ,
               but
               make
               use
               of
               some
               of
               his
               Courtiers
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               But
               tell
               me
               ,
               I
               pray
               you
               ,
               If
               a
               King
               not
               only
               allows
               ,
               but
               commands
               all
               his
               Subjects
               to
               
                 call
                 upon
                 him
                 in
                 the
                 day
                 of
                 
                 trouble
                 ,
                 to
                 come
                 to
                 him
                 freely
                 ,
              
               and
               upon
               all
               occasions
               ,
               
                 to
                 pour
                 out
                 their
                 complaints
                 to
                 him
                 ,
                 not
                 doubting
                 but
                 he
                 will
                 receive
                 and
                 answer
                 them
                 ,
              
               and
               this
               King
               were
               always
               at
               perfect
               leisure
               to
               hear
               their
               requests
               ,
               and
               the
               oftner
               they
               come
               to
               him
               ,
               the
               welcomer
               they
               are
               ;
               and
               he
               appoints
               his
               own
               Son
               the
               Master
               of
               the
               Requests
               ,
               from
               time
               to
               time
               ,
               to
               receive
               all
               the
               Petitions
               of
               his
               Subjects
               ;
               and
               both
               the
               King
               and
               the
               Prince
               are
               ten
               thousand
               times
               more
               compassionate
               than
               the
               Courtiers
               ;
               would
               you
               not
               in
               this
               case
               account
               him
               a
               fool
               (
               and
               somewhat
               else
               too
               )
               that
               should
               spend
               his
               time
               in
               petitioning
               this
               and
               the
               other
               inferiour
               Courtier
               to
               gain
               access
               to
               the
               King
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               I
               cannot
               deny
               that
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               Then
               your
               Church
               hath
               need
               to
               make
               use
               of
               that
               counsel
               ,
               James
               1.
               5
               
               :
               
                 If
                 any
                 man
                 want
                 wisdom
                 ,
                 let
                 him
                 ask
                 it
                 of
                 God
              
               ;
               they
               rather
               choose
               to
               ask
               it
               of
               Saints
               ,
               and
               that
               is
               the
               reason
               they
               go
               without
               it
               .
               Most
               plain
               it
               is
               ,
               this
               is
               the
               very
               case
               ,
               and
               such
               a
               King
               God
               in
               all
               points
               is
               ,
               and
               infinitely
               better
               than
               all
               this
               ,
               and
               such
               a
               Master
               of
               Requests
               Christ
               is
               :
               but
               for
               the
               humility
               you
               talk
               of
               ,
               I
               think
               therein
               you
               do
               prudently
               ;
               for
               I
               remember
               the
               worship
               of
               Angels
               came
               in
               under
               a
               shew
               of
               humility
               ,
               
               Col.
               2.
               18.
               and
               the
               door
               being
               once
               opened
               ,
               it
               was
               discreetly
               done
               to
               bring
               in
               the
               worship
               of
               Saints
               there
               too
               :
               let
               me
               hear
               what
               else
               you
               can
               say
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               We
               use
               to
               pray
               to
               living
               Saints
               ,
               why
               not
               as
               well
               to
               departed
               and
               glorified
               Saints
               ;
               S.
               Paul
               writes
               to
               the
               
                 Thessalonians
                 ,
                 Pray
                 for
                 us
              
               ;
               Col.
               4.
               3.
               
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               Surely
               Scripture
               makes
               a
               sufficient
               difference
               ;
               You
               meet
               with
               very
               many
               Commands
               and
               Examples
               of
               Prayers
               or
               Addresses
               to
               the
               living
               ,
               not
               one
               to
               the
               dead
               .
               Besides
               ,
               you
               know
               the
               living
               hear
               your
               Prayers
               ,
               you
               know
               nothing
               that
               the
               dead
               do
               so
               :
               Besides
               ,
               I
               trow
               ,
               you
               do
               not
               pray
               to
               the
               living
               in
               such
               manner
               as
               you
               do
               to
               the
               dead
               ;
               you
               do
               not
               religiously
               worship
               the
               living
               (
               and
               about
               that
               all
               our
               question
               is
               ,
               )
               Did
               St.
               Paul
               invocate
               the
               Colossians
               ,
               because
               he
               desired
               their
               Prayers
               ?
               Can
               you
               say
               any
               thing
               more
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               The
               Saints
               in
               Glory
               pray
               for
               us
               ,
               and
               therefore
               we
               may
               pray
               unto
               them
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               Will
               you
               affirm
               ,
               that
               I
               may
               and
               ought
               to
               worship
               ,
               and
               pray
               unto
               all
               those
               that
               pray
               for
               me
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               No
               :
               Then
               our
               Churches
               practice
               would
               condemn
               me
               ;
               for
               we
               grant
               ,
               that
               the
               Fathers
               in
               their
               Limbus
               did
               ,
               and
               so
               those
               in
               Purgatory
               do
               ,
               pray
               for
               us
               ,
               and
               so
               do
               all
               the
               
               Living
               Saints
               upon
               Earth
               ,
               yet
               we
               do
               not
               allow
               Prayers
               unto
               them
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               Then
               your
               argument
               is
               lost
               ,
               from
               their
               Intercession
               to
               your
               Invocation
               .
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               Let
               me
               hear
               ,
               if
               you
               have
               any
               better
               Arguments
               against
               this
               practice
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               You
               shall
               .
               1.
               
               Since
               all
               grant
               that
               Prayer
               is
               a
               part
               of
               Gods
               Worship
               ,
               then
               your
               praying
               to
               Saints
               is
               directly
               contrary
               to
               Gods
               command
               ,
               Deut.
               6.
               13.
               
               Mat.
               4.
               10.
               
               
                 Thou
                 shalt
                 worship
                 the
                 Lord
                 thy
                 God
                 ,
                 and
                 him
                 only
                 shalt
                 thou
                 serve
                 .
              
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               We
               do
               not
               worship
               the
               Saints
               ,
               as
               God
               ,
               with
               the
               highest
               kinde
               of
               Worship
               ,
               which
               is
               proper
               to
               God
               ,
               but
               only
               with
               an
               inferiour
               kind
               of
               Religious
               Worship
               ,
               and
               therefore
               do
               not
               transgress
               this
               command
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               The
               Devil
               himself
               did
               not
               require
               the
               highest
               worship
               ,
               as
               I
               shewed
               before
               ;
               yet
               Christ
               thought
               that
               inferiour
               worship
               a
               breach
               of
               that
               law
               .
               Nor
               did
               those
               Angel-worshippers
               ,
               mentioned
               ,
               Col.
               2.
               worship
               the
               Angels
               ,
               as
               God
               ,
               with
               the
               highest
               worship
               ,
               for
               they
               were
               either
               Jews
               ,
               or
               Judaizing
               Christians
               ,
               (
               both
               of
               which
               never
               pretend
               to
               equalize
               the
               Angels
               with
               God
               ,
               but
               judged
               them
               far
               inferiour
               to
               God
               ,
               and
               worshipped
               them
               accordingly
               )
               yet
               nevertheless
               are
               they
               
               condemned
               by
               S.
               Paul
               for
               giving
               divine
               Honour
               to
               the
               Creature
               .
               Next
               ,
               this
               praying
               to
               Saints
               is
               an
               high
               dishonour
               to
               Jesus
               Christ.
               God
               hath
               made
               him
               
                 the
                 only
                 Mediatour
                 ,
                 1
                 Tim.
              
               2.
               5.
               he
               hath
               invited
               all
               persons
               to
               come
               freely
               and
               boldly
               to
               him
               ,
               hath
               promised
               
                 those
                 that
                 come
                 to
                 him
                 ,
                 he
                 will
                 in
                 no
                 wise
                 cast
                 out
                 ,
                 Ioh.
              
               6.
               37.
               why
               do
               not
               you
               then
               go
               immediately
               to
               Christ
               ?
               This
               is
               a
               manifest
               questioning
               either
               of
               his
               power
               ,
               or
               faithfulness
               ,
               or
               goodness
               .
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               It
               is
               one
               of
               the
               slanders
               of
               your
               Ministers
               ,
               that
               we
               dishonour
               Christ
               ;
               we
               only
               pray
               to
               Saints
               to
               pray
               to
               Christ.
               
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               All
               your
               Books
               of
               Devot
               on
               confute
               that
               pretence
               ;
               for
               you
               profess
               in
               your
               Mass-book
               a
               they
               help
               you
               by
               their
               Merits
               ,
               as
               well
               as
               by
               their
               Prayers
               .
               Bellarmine
               affirmeth
               that
               the
               
                 Saints
                 in
                 some
                 sort
                 are
                 our
                 Redeemers
                 :
              
               b
               Is
               this
               no
               more
               than
               only
               to
               pray
               for
               you
               ?
               Is
               it
               no
               more
               than
               this
               ,
               when
               you
               pray
               thus
               to
               the
               Virgin
               
                 Mary
                 ;
                 Do
                 thou
                 protect
                 us
                 ,
                 drive
                 away
                 evil
                 from
                 us
                 ,
                 and
                 require
                 good
                 things
                 for
                 us
                 :
              
               and
               
                 in
                 right
                 of
                 a
                 Mother
                 ,
                 command
                 thy
                 Son
                 ?
              
               Is
               it
               no
               more
               than
               this
               ,
               when
               you
               say
               
                 the
                 Lord
                 was
                 with
                 her
              
               ,
               (
               i.
               e.
               the
               Virgin
               ▪
               
               Mary
               )
               
                 and
                 she
                 with
                 the
                 Lord
                 in
                 the
                 same
                 work
                 of
                 redemption
                 :
              
               and
               when
               Esa.
               63.
               is
               objected
               ,
               
                 I
                 trod
                 the
                 Wine
                 press
                 alone
                 ,
                 and
                 there
                 was
                 no
                 man
                 with
                 me
              
               ;
               they
               answer
               cunningly
               ,
               
                 true
                 Lord
                 ,
                 there
                 was
                 no
              
               MAN
               
                 with
                 thee
                 ,
                 but
                 there
                 was
                 a
              
               WOMAN
               
                 with
                 thee
              
               ;
               c
               Is
               it
               no
               dishonour
               to
               Christ
               that
               your
               famous
               Biel
               saith
               ,
               that
               
                 God
                 hath
                 given
                 the
                 Virgin
              
               Mary
               
                 half
                 of
                 his
                 Kingdom
                 ;
                 and
                 that
                 whereas
                 he
                 hath
                 justice
                 and
                 mercy
                 ,
                 he
                 kept
                 justice
                 to
                 himself
                 ,
                 and
                 granted
                 mercy
                 to
                 the
                 Virgin
                 ?
              
               d
               In
               my
               opinion
               they
               shall
               do
               well
               to
               take
               in
               Christ
               for
               a
               share
               in
               the
               mercy
               .
               Is
               it
               no
               dishonour
               to
               Christ
               to
               say
               ,
               that
               
                 Prayers
                 which
                 are
                 made
                 to
                 ,
                 and
                 delivered
                 by
                 the
                 Saints
                 ,
                 are
                 better
                 than
                 those
                 by
                 Christ
                 ,
              
               as
               Salmeron
               saith
               ?
               e
               Is
               it
               no
               dishonour
               to
               Christ
               ,
               that
               Barradius
               the
               Jesuite
               asketh
               of
               Christ
               ,
               
                 why
                 he
                 took
                 not
                 his
                 Mother
                 up
                 with
                 him
                 when
                 he
                 ascended
                 up
                 to
                 Heaven
                 ?
              
               and
               frames
               this
               answer
               ;
               f
               
                 Peradventure
                 ,
                 Lord
                 ,
                 it
                 was
                 lest
                 thy
                 heavenly
                 Courtiers
                 should
                 be
                 in
                 doubt
                 ,
                 whether
                 to
                 go
                 out
                 to
                 meet
                 thee
                 ,
                 their
                 Lord
                 ,
                 or
                 her
                 ,
                 their
                 Lady
              
               Is
               it
               no
               dishonour
               to
               Christ
               ,
               that
               
                 Carolus
                 Scribanius
              
               (
               otherwise
               
                 Clarus
                 Bonarscius
              
               )
               professeth
               ,
               
                 he
                 cannot
                 tell
                 which
                 to
                 prefer
                 ,
                 the
                 Mothers
                 
                 Milk
                 ,
                 or
                 the
                 Sons
                 bloud
              
               g
               .
               I
               believe
               neither
               Christ
               nor
               his
               Mother
               will
               give
               these
               men
               thanks
               for
               this
               another
               day
               ;
               and
               all
               these
               passages
               are
               not
               in
               obscure
               Authors
               ,
               that
               privily
               steal
               abroad
               into
               the
               World
               ;
               but
               in
               eminent
               Persons
               ,
               and
               Books
               Licensed
               by
               the
               Approbation
               ,
               and
               according
               to
               the
               Orders
               of
               your
               Church
               :
               and
               besides
               ,
               your
               Church
               owns
               them
               ,
               in
               that
               she
               doth
               not
               blot
               them
               out
               ,
               nor
               put
               them
               into
               her
               expurgatory
               Indices
               .
               Moreover
               ,
               I
               must
               pray
               to
               none
               ,
               but
               those
               in
               whom
               I
               must
               trust
               ,
               
                 Rom.
                 10.
                 13
                 ,
                 14.
                 
                 How
                 shall
                 they
                 call
                 on
                 him
                 ,
                 in
                 whom
                 they
                 have
                 not
                 believ●d
                 ?
              
               And
               trust
               is
               Gods
               Prerogative
               incommunicable
               to
               any
               creature
               ,
               Ier.
               17.
               5.
               
               
                 Cursed
                 is
                 he
                 that
                 trusteth
                 in
                 man.
              
               Again
               ,
               I
               must
               pray
               to
               none
               ,
               but
               to
               whom
               I
               may
               pray
               in
               faith
               ,
               and
               without
               doubting
               ;
               and
               (
               upon
               good
               grounds
               
                 believing
                 that
                 I
                 shall
                 receive
                 )
                 Mat.
                 21.
                 22.
                 
                 Iames
              
               1.
               5
               ,
               6.
               
               But
               I
               am
               not
               sure
               that
               the
               Saints
               do
               hear
               my
               prayers
               ,
               or
               can
               and
               will
               grant
               them
               .
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               The
               Saints
               in
               glory
               do
               know
               what
               we
               pray
               to
               them
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               How
               doth
               that
               appear
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               There
               are
               several
               wayes
               whereby
               they
               know
               these
               things
               ,
               but
               I
               adhere
               to
               
               what
               Bellarmine
               saith
               ,
               that
               they
               knew
               this
               by
               revelation
               from
               God.
               
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               You
               should
               not
               only
               say
               this
               ,
               but
               prove
               it
               .
               One
               of
               your
               infallible
               Popes
               Gregory
               denies
               this
               ,
               no
               Scripture
               informs
               you
               thus
               much
               ;
               nay
               ,
               that
               sufficiently
               implies
               ,
               that
               the
               Saints
               do
               not
               particularly
               know
               ,
               nor
               mind
               the
               concerns
               of
               this
               world
               .
               God
               tells
               
                 Iosiah
                 ,
                 2
                 Chr.
                 34.
                 28.
                 
                 Thou
                 shalt
                 be
                 gathered
                 to
                 thy
                 grave
                 in
                 peace
                 ,
                 neither
                 shall
                 thine
                 eyes
                 see
                 the
                 evil
                 I
                 will
                 bring
                 upon
                 this
                 place
                 ,
              
               Eccl.
               9.
               5.
               
                 the
                 dead
                 know
                 not
                 any
                 thing
              
               of
               the
               particular
               occurrences
               of
               this
               life
               ,
               see
               Iob
               14.
               21.
               
               I
               am
               sure
               these
               are
               ten
               times
               better
               arguments
               than
               what
               you
               bring
               for
               the
               contrary
               .
               And
               in
               a
               word
               ,
               its
               Gods
               incommunicable
               Prerogative
               to
               know
               the
               Heart
               and
               secret
               Prayers
               ,
               2
               
                 Chron.
                 6.
                 30.
                 
                 Mat.
              
               6.
               6.
               
               So
               upon
               the
               whole
               matter
               ,
               I
               conclude
               ;
               and
               now
               by
               the
               vanity
               of
               your
               Arguments
               and
               Answers
               ,
               do
               fully
               discern
               the
               falseness
               of
               this
               opinion
               ,
               and
               the
               wickedness
               of
               the
               practice
               of
               calling
               upon
               Saints
               :
               let
               me
               hear
               whether
               you
               have
               any
               better
               evidences
               for
               the
               worship
               of
               Images
               ;
               I
               hope
               you
               have
               ;
               and
               I
               am
               sure
               you
               need
               very
               clear
               and
               strong
               arguments
               for
               that
               practice
               ,
               or
               else
               you
               are
               guilty
               of
               that
               damnable
               sin
               of
               Idolatry
               .
            
          
           
             
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               We
               have
               very
               good
               arguments
               for
               that
               :
               I
               will
               use
               only
               two
               ,
               and
               those
               our
               strongest
               arguments
               ,
               as
               you
               desire
               .
               First
               ,
               we
               have
               the
               example
               and
               command
               of
               God
               for
               it
               :
               he
               caused
               the
               Images
               of
               the
               Cherubims
               to
               be
               made
               and
               put
               upon
               the
               Ark
               which
               was
               worshipped
               :
               Psal.
               98.
               
               If
               the
               Ark
               was
               to
               be
               worshipped
               because
               it
               represented
               Gods
               footstool
               ,
               much
               more
               may
               an
               Image
               be
               worshipped
               ;
               as
               our
               Mr.
               Bishop
               rightly
               argued
               *
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               I
               suppose
               if
               this
               be
               a
               good
               Argument
               to
               
                 us
                 now
              
               ,
               it
               was
               so
               to
               the
               
                 Iews
                 formerly
              
               ;
               for
               length
               of
               time
               doth
               not
               turn
               false
               arguments
               into
               true
               ones
               ;
               tell
               me
               therefore
               if
               you
               had
               lived
               when
               the
               Law
               ,
               Exod.
               20.
               was
               newly
               given
               ,
               and
               one
               had
               perswaded
               you
               to
               worship
               Images
               by
               your
               own
               argument
               ,
               what
               would
               you
               have
               answered
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               I
               would
               have
               said
               ,
               it
               doth
               not
               follow
               that
               because
               the
               Ark
               was
               to
               be
               worshipped
               (
               which
               God
               commanded
               them
               to
               worship
               )
               therefore
               Images
               were
               to
               be
               worshipped
               (
               which
               God
               forbad
               them
               to
               worship
               .
               )
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               Good
               Sir
               ,
               bestow
               this
               answer
               (
               as
               a
               token
               from
               me
               )
               upon
               any
               of
               your
               Brethren
               that
               shall
               argue
               so
               absurdly
               :
               besides
               ,
               it
               seems
               very
               unlikely
               to
               me
               ,
               that
               the
               
               Cherubims
               were
               ordained
               to
               be
               worshiped
               by
               the
               people
               ,
               because
               they
               were
               never
               seen
               by
               the
               people
               .
               You
               put
               the
               Images
               which
               you
               worship
               in
               the
               most
               visible
               and
               conspicuous
               places
               .
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               Yet
               no
               man
               could
               worship
               the
               Ark
               but
               he
               must
               worship
               the
               Cherubims
               ,
               for
               they
               were
               over
               the
               Ark.
               
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               In
               that
               case
               the
               Cherubims
               were
               not
               at
               all
               worshipped
               ,
               unless
               you
               will
               say
               ,
               that
               he
               that
               worships
               one
               of
               your
               wooden
               Images
               ,
               worships
               also
               the
               Spider
               ,
               (
               which
               peradventure
               is
               paying
               its
               devotion
               there
               ,
               and
               got
               into
               the
               Saints
               mouth
               .
               )
               Besides
               ,
               it
               doth
               not
               appear
               that
               the
               Ark
               it self
               was
               worshipped
               ,
               for
               that
               also
               was
               not
               so
               much
               as
               seen
               by
               the
               people
               ,
               therefore
               not
               like
               to
               be
               worshipped
               .
               All
               that
               we
               read
               is
               ,
               that
               the
               Israelites
               did
               and
               ought
               to
               worship
               God
               toward
               the
               Ark
               ;
               and
               so
               they
               are
               said
               to
               worship
               God
               
                 toward
                 the
                 whole
                 Temple
                 ,
                 and
                 toward
                 Ierusalem
                 ,
                 and
                 towards
                 the
                 Holy
                 Mountain
                 ,
                 and
                 towards
                 Heaven
                 .
              
               Yet
               I
               presume
               you
               will
               not
               say
               all
               these
               places
               were
               to
               be
               worshiped
               ,
               and
               if
               God
               was
               to
               be
               worshiped
               towards
               these
               places
               ;
               because
               he
               tells
               us
               expresly
               ,
               his
               special
               presence
               was
               there
               .
               What
               is
               this
               to
               Images
               ?
               which
               God
               banisheth
               from
               his
               House
               and
               presence
               :
               
               and
               to
               conclude
               this
               ,
               I
               pray
               you
               tell
               me
               ,
               Is
               it
               lawful
               to
               worship
               every
               place
               where
               God
               is
               in
               a
               special
               manner
               present
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               I
               conceive
               it
               is
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               Then
               it
               is
               lawful
               to
               worship
               every
               religious
               man
               in
               the
               World
               ;
               It
               is
               true
               ,
               your
               great
               Vasquez
               professeth
               ,
               that
               a
               man
               may
               worship
               a
               Stone
               ,
               or
               a
               Straw
               ,
               or
               any
               creature
               where
               God
               is
               ,
               for
               God
               is
               there
               according
               to
               this
               essence
               .
               a
               By
               which
               Argument
               it
               seems
               Christ
               might
               have
               worshipped
               the
               Devil
               ;
               for
               the
               essence
               of
               God
               being
               every-where
               ,
               must
               needs
               be
               in
               him
               .
               But
               what
               ,
               I
               pray
               you
               ,
               is
               your
               other
               Argument
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               The
               honour
               of
               God
               requires
               the
               worship
               of
               his
               Images
               ,
               for
               that
               redounds
               to
               God
               ;
               as
               if
               I
               honour
               a
               Prince
               ,
               I
               will
               honour
               his
               Picture
               ;
               and
               we
               shew
               our
               reverence
               to
               the
               King
               in
               being
               uncovered
               in
               his
               Presence
               Chamber
               ,
               though
               the
               King
               be
               not
               there
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               Tell
               me
               ,
               I
               pray
               you
               ,
               If
               a
               King
               forbid
               any
               Pictures
               of
               himself
               to
               be
               made
               ,
               or
               set
               up
               ;
               if
               any
               over-officious
               Subject
               should
               ,
               notwithstanding
               this
               ,
               set
               up
               the
               Kings
               Picture
               ,
               pretending
               to
               do
               it
               in
               respect
               to
               the
               King
               ;
               would
               the
               King
               esteem
               himself
               honoured
               or
               dishonoured
               by
               it
               ?
            
          
           
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               In
               that
               case
               certainly
               the
               King
               is
               dishonoured
               ,
               when
               his
               commands
               are
               broken
               ,
               and
               his
               Authority
               despised
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               You
               say
               right
               .
               And
               so
               God
               will
               give
               you
               little
               thanks
               for
               breaking
               his
               Commands
               ,
               upon
               pretence
               of
               his
               Service
               .
               If
               a
               King
               require
               such
               reverence
               to
               be
               given
               to
               his
               Presence-Chamber
               ,
               it
               is
               fit
               that
               he
               should
               be
               obeyed
               (
               seeing
               it
               is
               only
               a
               civil
               ,
               and
               not
               a
               religious
               respect
               :
               )
               and
               if
               God
               forbid
               any
               such
               reverence
               ,
               any
               Religious
               worship
               should
               be
               given
               to
               any
               graven
               Images
               ,
               good
               reason
               his
               prohibition
               too
               should
               be
               obeyed
               .
               You
               talk
               of
               honouring
               God
               ,
               but
               for
               the
               way
               or
               means
               of
               honouring
               God
               ,
               whether
               it
               be
               most
               reasonable
               to
               take
               an
               estimate
               from
               the
               Rules
               and
               Practices
               of
               all
               former
               Idolaters
               (
               who
               have
               all
               justified
               their
               Idolatry
               from
               this
               pretence
               of
               honouring
               God
               )
               or
               from
               the
               Commands
               of
               Gods
               ,
               Word
               ,
               and
               the
               practices
               of
               the
               godly
               Jews
               before
               Christ
               ,
               and
               godly
               Christians
               ,
               and
               Fathers
               ,
               for
               some
               hundreds
               of
               years
               after
               Christ
               (
               who
               are
               all
               known
               to
               detest
               all
               manner
               of
               Worship
               of
               Images
               )
               a
               I
               leave
               to
               any
               indifferent
               person
               to
               judge
               :
               besides
               ,
               if
               you
               will
               needs
               testifie
               your
               respect
               to
               God
               ,
               by
               honouring
               his
               Images
               ,
               
               what
               a
               madness
               is
               it
               to
               confine
               this
               honour
               to
               dead
               Images
               of
               Wood
               or
               Stone
               ,
               and
               to
               deny
               it
               to
               his
               Saints
               upon
               earth
               ,
               who
               are
               his
               living
               ,
               and
               far
               more
               noble
               and
               express
               Images
               .
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               Since
               you
               scorn
               my
               Arguments
               ,
               for
               the
               Worship
               of
               Images
               ,
               let
               me
               hear
               your
               Arguments
               against
               it
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               My
               first
               Argument
               is
               this
               ,
               the
               holy
               Scripture
               condemns
               it
               as
               Idolatry
               .
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               We
               have
               Images
               in
               our
               Churches
               only
               as
               remembrancers
               (
               to
               put
               us
               in
               mind
               of
               worthy
               and
               excellent
               persons
               )
               but
               not
               as
               objects
               of
               Worship
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               No
               friend
               ,
               it
               is
               not
               that
               time
               of
               day
               :
               you
               cannot
               now
               deceive
               us
               with
               such
               foolish
               excuses
               ,
               for
               your
               Councils
               of
               Nice
               and
               Trent
               do
               both
               command
               the
               Worshipping
               of
               Images
               ,
               and
               all
               your
               Authors
               plead
               for
               this
               .
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               Well
               ,
               but
               this
               I
               am
               sure
               is
               true
               ,
               we
               do
               not
               worship
               the
               Images
               ,
               but
               only
               God
               by
               them
               ,
               and
               in
               them
               ;
               we
               worship
               them
               only
               as
               representations
               of
               God
               or
               Christ
               ,
               &c.
               and
               the
               honour
               passeth
               from
               them
               to
               God.
               
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               That
               cannot
               acquit
               you
               ,
               neither
               before
               God
               nor
               man.
               Micah
               and
               his
               Mother
               were
               guilty
               of
               Idolatry
               ,
               yet
               the
               silver
               was
               
                 dedicated
                 to
                 the
                 Lord
              
               (
               Jehovah
               )
               
                 to
                 make
                 a
                 graven
                 Image
              
               ,
               Judg.
               17.
               3.
               also
               Iudg.
               18.
               
               5
               ,
               6.
               
               And
               the
               Israelites
               are
               charged
               with
               Idolatry
               in
               the
               worshiping
               of
               the
               Golden
               Calf
               ,
               
                 Acts
                 7.
                 41.
                 1
                 
                 Cor.
              
               10.
               7.
               
               And
               yet
               they
               could
               not
               be
               so
               brutish
               ,
               as
               to
               think
               that
               Golden
               Calf
               ,
               which
               
                 they
                 brought
              
               out
               of
               Egypt
               in
               their
               ear-rings
               ,
               was
               that
               God
               which
               
                 brought
                 them
              
               out
               of
               Egypt
               with
               strong
               hand
               .
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               
                 But
                 they
                 said
              
               ,
               These
               be
               thy
               gods
               O
               Israel
               ,
               which
               brought
               thee
               up
               out
               of
               the
               Land
               of
               Egypt
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               You
               use
               also
               to
               call
               an
               Image
               by
               the
               name
               of
               him
               whom
               it
               represents
               ;
               you
               commonly
               say
               ,
               this
               is
               
                 the
                 blessed
                 Virgin
              
               ,
               or
               S.
               Matthew
               ,
               &c.
               when
               you
               mean
               ,
               't
               is
               only
               their
               Image
               ,
               and
               so
               it
               cannot
               be
               strange
               to
               you
               ,
               that
               they
               express
               themselves
               in
               the
               same
               manner
               .
               Besides
               Aaron
               himself
               proclaims
               the
               feast
               of
               the
               Calf
               in
               these
               words
               ,
               
                 Tomorrow
                 is
                 a
                 feast
                 to
                 Iehovah
                 .
              
               The
               Heathens
               also
               excused
               their
               Idolatry
               by
               this
               very
               pretence
               .
               So
               Celsus
               b
               and
               other
               said
               (
               as
               the
               antient
               Fathers
               tell
               us
               )
               
                 We
                 do
                 not
                 worship
                 the
                 Images
                 of
                 Gold
                 or
                 Brass
                 ,
              
               &c.
               
                 as
                 believing
                 them
                 to
                 be
                 gods
                 ;
                 but
                 we
                 worship
                 the
                 gods
                 in
                 them
                 ,
                 and
                 by
                 them
                 .
              
            
          
           
             
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               They
               worshiped
               wicked
               Men
               ;
               but
               we
               worship
               only
               Holy
               Men
               ,
               and
               the
               Friends
               of
               God
               ,
               as
               such
               ,
               and
               because
               they
               are
               such
               ,
               and
               their
               Images
               ,
               and
               therefore
               are
               not
               guilty
               of
               Idolatry
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               Then
               Saint
               
                 Peter
                 ,
                 Acts
              
               10.
               and
               the
               Angel
               ,
               Rev.
               22.
               and
               Saint
               
                 Paul
                 ,
                 Acts
              
               14.
               might
               have
               received
               that
               adoration
               (
               as
               being
               the
               friends
               of
               God
               )
               which
               they
               so
               utterly
               rejected
               .
               Moses
               was
               the
               friend
               of
               God
               ,
               yet
               God
               hid
               away
               his
               body
               ,
               lest
               the
               Israelites
               should
               worship
               him
               .
               And
               I
               have
               heard
               that
               the
               Fathers
               charged
               the
               Collyridians
               with
               Idolatry
               ,
               for
               worshiping
               of
               the
               Virgin
               Mary
               ;
               c
               and
               the
               Arrians
               for
               worshipping
               Christ
               ,
               whom
               they
               believed
               to
               be
               but
               a
               creature
               (
               though
               all
               agreed
               they
               were
               the
               friends
               of
               God.
               )
               I
               suppose
               if
               any
               man
               should
               attempt
               to
               give
               the
               honour
               ,
               proper
               to
               the
               King
               ,
               to
               his
               Brother
               ,
               or
               Friend
               ,
               this
               would
               not
               excuse
               them
               from
               Treason
               ;
               nor
               will
               it
               excuse
               any
               Adulteress
               that
               she
               lay
               with
               her
               Husbands
               dearest
               Friend
               or
               Relation
               .
               Again
               ,
               it
               matters
               not
               much
               to
               this
               point
               ,
               for
               what
               reason
               you
               worship
               Images
               :
               the
               only
               question
               is
               ,
               whether
               you
               do
               worship
               Images
               ?
               for
               the
               very
               doing
               of
               that
               (
               whatsoever
               
               pretences
               it
               may
               have
               )
               is
               Idolatry
               .
               Besides
               ,
               if
               you
               worshipped
               God
               alone
               ,
               and
               not
               the
               Image
               ,
               your
               excuse
               would
               have
               some
               colour
               ;
               but
               it
               is
               most
               evident
               ,
               that
               you
               worship
               not
               only
               God
               ,
               but
               the
               Image
               too
               .
               I
               am
               told
               that
               your
               own
               Azorius
               affirms
               ,
               that
               
                 it
                 is
                 the
                 constant
                 opinion
                 of
                 your
                 Divines
                 ,
                 that
                 the
                 Image
                 is
                 to
                 be
                 honored
                 ,
                 or
                 worshipped
                 ,
                 with
                 the
                 same
                 honour
                 and
                 worship
                 which
                 is
                 given
                 to
                 him
                 whose
                 Image
                 it
                 is
                 .
              
               a
               And
               that
               Cajetan
               b
               and
               
                 Gregory
                 de
                 Valentia
              
               ,
               c
               and
               Costerus
               d
               affirm
               as
               much
               .
               And
               that
               your
               Bellarmin
               expresly
               disputes
               for
               this
               ,
               that
               
                 Images
                 are
                 not
                 only
                 to
                 be
                 worshipped
                 as
                 they
                 are
                 exemplars
                 ,
                 but
                 also
                 properly
                 and
                 by
                 themselves
                 ,
                 so
                 as
                 the
                 worship
                 may
                 be
                 terminated
                 in
                 them
                 .
              
               e
               Are
               these
               things
               true
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               I
               cannot
               deny
               but
               they
               are
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               Then
               I
               see
               the
               vanity
               of
               your
               pretences
               ,
               and
               that
               you
               only
               seek
               to
               raise
               a
               mist
               before
               the
               eyes
               of
               ignorant
               people
               ;
               for
               in
               truth
               you
               worship
               the
               Image
               it self
               ,
               though
               happily
               not
               for
               its
               self
               :
               as
               if
               a
               Heathen
               Emperor
               commanded
               his
               Subjects
               Religiously
               to
               Worship
               such
               a
               Vice-gerent
               
               of
               his
               ;
               no
               man
               ,
               who
               did
               worship
               that
               Vice-gerent
               ,
               could
               deny
               that
               he
               worshipped
               him
               ,
               though
               he
               did
               it
               only
               for
               the
               Emperours
               sake
               .
               Tell
               me
               ,
               I
               pray
               you
               ,
               do
               you
               not
               hold
               ,
               that
               there
               are
               two
               kinds
               of
               Religious
               Worship
               ;
               namely
               ,
               absolute
               ,
               (
               which
               you
               give
               to
               God
               or
               the
               Saints
               )
               and
               relative
               ,
               (
               which
               you
               give
               to
               their
               Images
               )
               ?
            
          
           
             
               Pop.
               
            
             
               I
               must
               own
               it
               .
            
          
           
             
               Prot.
               
            
             
               Then
               it
               is
               horrible
               impudence
               to
               say
               ,
               you
               do
               not
               give
               worship
               to
               the
               Images
               ,
               since
               you
               give
               one
               of
               these
               two
               kinds
               unto
               them
               ,
               and
               unto
               them
               only
               :
               besides
               ,
               if
               all
               you
               say
               were
               true
               ,
               this
               would
               not
               acquit
               you
               from
               Idolatry
               ;
               for
               your
               Church
               professeth
               and
               commandeth
               the
               Worship
               of
               the
               Images
               of
               Saints
               ,
               as
               well
               as
               of
               God
               and
               Christ
               ;
               and
               since
               it
               is
               Idolatry
               to
               give
               Divine
               Honour
               to
               any
               creature
               (
               as
               I
               before
               proved
               )
               you
               are
               no
               less
               guilty
               in
               giving
               it
               to
               the
               Saints
               themselves
               ,
               than
               to
               their
               Images
               ,
               and
               so
               you
               are
               double-dy'd
               Idolaters
               .
            
             
               My
               second
               Argument
               is
               taken
               from
               the
               second
               Commandment
               ,
               
                 Thou
                 shalt
                 not
                 make
                 any
                 graven
                 Image
                 .
              
            
             
               But
               first
               ,
               I
               pray
               you
               ,
               tell
               me
               true
               ,
               hath
               your
               Church
               left
               out
               this
               second
               Commandment
               in
               divers
               of
               her
               Breviaries
               and
               
               Offices
               of
               Prayer
               ,
               or
               do
               our
               Ministers
               slander
               them
               ?
               I
               hear
               ;
               that
               
                 In
                 the
                 Hours
                 of
                 our
                 Lady
                 ,
              
               Printed
               at
               
                 Paris
                 ,
                 An
              
               1611.
               
               The
               Commandments
               of
               the
               first
               Table
               are
               set
               down
               in
               these
               words
               ,
               and
               no
               other
               .
            
          
           
             
               1.
               
               Commandment
               .
            
             
               I
               am
               the
               Lord
               thy
               God
               ,
               thou
               shalt
               not
               have
               nor
               worship
               any
               other
               God
               but
               me
               .
            
          
           
             
               2.
               
               Commandment
               .
            
             
               Thou
               shalt
               not
               take
               the
               Name
               of
               the
               Lord
               thy
               God
               in
               vain
               .
            
          
           
             
               3.
               
               Commandment
               .
            
             
               Remember
               to
               keep
               holy
               the
               Sabbath
               Day
               and
               Feasts
               .
            
             
               And
               that
               the
               Council
               of
               
                 Ausburg
                 ,
                 Ann.
              
               1548.
               delivering
               the
               Commandments
               in
               Dutch
               for
               the
               People
               ,
               leave
               out
               the
               mention
               of
               Images
               ;
               and
               ,
               that
               their
               cheat
               might
               not
               be
               discovered
               ,
               that
               the
               people
               might
               have
               their
               full
               number
               ,
               they
               make
               use
               of
               the
               mistake
               of
               one
               of
               the
               Fathers
               ,
               and
               divide
               the
               last
               Command
               into
               two
               ,
               against
               Sense
               and
               Reason
               ,
               and
               the
               practice
               of
               the
               whole
               ancient
               Church
               .
               Are
               these
               things
               so
               ?
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 It
                 is
                 true
                 ,
                 it
                 is
                 left
                 out
                 in
                 some
                 of
                 our
                 Books
                 ,
                 but
                 we
                 leave
                 it
                 in
                 ,
                 in
                 all
                 Bibles
                 ,
                 and
                 divers
                 of
                 our
                 Catechisms
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 Very
                 well
                 ,
                 I
                 see
                 you
                 had
                 wit
                 in
                 your
                 anger
                 ;
                 I
                 commend
                 your
                 discretion
                 ,
                 
                 that
                 you
                 did
                 not
                 your
                 work
                 so
                 grosly
                 ,
                 that
                 all
                 the
                 world
                 should
                 cry
                 shame
                 of
                 you
                 :
                 But
                 that
                 you
                 blotted
                 it
                 out
                 in
                 any
                 ,
                 is
                 an
                 evidence
                 of
                 your
                 guilt
                 .
                 but
                 what
                 say
                 you
                 to
                 this
                 Argument
                 ?
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 Then
                 my
                 first
                 answer
                 is
                 ,
                 That
                 this
                 Command
                 was
                 peculiar
                 to
                 the
                 Iews
                 ,
                 who
                 were
                 most
                 prone
                 to
                 Idolatry
                 *
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 This
                 is
                 not
                 true
                 .
                 It
                 sufficiently
                 appears
                 that
                 the
                 Gentiles
                 were
                 under
                 the
                 obligation
                 of
                 this
                 Law
                 ,
                 from
                 those
                 punishments
                 which
                 God
                 inflicted
                 upon
                 them
                 for
                 their
                 transgression
                 or
                 breach
                 of
                 it
                 by
                 Idolatry
                 ,
                 Rom.
                 1.
                 
                 But
                 
                   where
                   there
                   is
                   no
                   Law
                   ,
                   there
                   is
                   no
                   transgression
                   .
                
                 Besides
                 ,
                 Christ
                 tell
                 ,
                 us
                 ,
                 
                   He
                   came
                   not
                   to
                   destroy
                   the
                   Law
                   ,
                
                 (
                 the
                 Moral
                 Law
                 )
                 
                   but
                   to
                   fulfil
                   it
                
                 ,
                 Mat.
                 5.
                 17.
                 
                 Belike
                 ,
                 you
                 are
                 not
                 of
                 his
                 mind
                 ;
                 and
                 dare
                 you
                 say
                 the
                 Jews
                 ,
                 as
                 soon
                 they
                 believed
                 in
                 Christ
                 ,
                 were
                 discharged
                 from
                 this
                 command
                 ,
                 and
                 allowed
                 to
                 worship
                 the
                 Images
                 which
                 that
                 command
                 forbad
                 ?
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 I
                 will
                 not
                 say
                 so
                 ;
                 but
                 I
                 have
                 a
                 second
                 Answer
                 ;
                 The
                 thing
                 prohibited
                 here
                 is
                 not
                 Images
                 ,
                 (
                 which
                 are
                 representations
                 of
                 real
                 things
                 )
                 as
                 you
                 falsly
                 render
                 it
                 ,
                 but
                 Idols
                 ,
                 which
                 are
                 the
                 Images
                 of
                 false
                 gods
                 ,
                 
                 which
                 are
                 not
                 ,
                 and
                 never
                 were
                 in
                 the
                 world
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 The
                 Text
                 its
                 self
                 is
                 full
                 against
                 you
                 ;
                 for
                 the
                 Images
                 there
                 prohibited
                 ,
                 are
                 not
                 said
                 to
                 be
                 the
                 Images
                 of
                 the
                 false
                 gods
                 of
                 the
                 Heathens
                 (
                 whereof
                 many
                 never
                 had
                 any
                 being
                 )
                 but
                 the
                 Images
                 
                   of
                   any
                   thing
                   in
                   heaven
                   or
                   earth
                   ,
                
                 &c.
                 
                 Moreover
                 ,
                 divers
                 of
                 the
                 Heathen
                 gods
                 were
                 men
                 whom
                 they
                 deified
                 .
                 I
                 hope
                 their
                 Pictures
                 were
                 Pictures
                 of
                 real
                 things
                 ,
                 yet
                 these
                 are
                 Idols
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 Though
                 they
                 really
                 were
                 Men
                 ,
                 yet
                 their
                 pictures
                 were
                 made
                 to
                 represent
                 them
                 as
                 gods
                 ,
                 and
                 such
                 they
                 were
                 not
                 really
                 ,
                 and
                 therefore
                 were
                 Idols
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 The
                 learned
                 Heathens
                 knew
                 (
                 as
                 well
                 as
                 you
                 and
                 I
                 do
                 )
                 that
                 Iupiter
                 ,
                 and
                 Mars
                 ,
                 and
                 Mercury
                 ,
                 and
                 the
                 rest
                 ,
                 were
                 meer
                 Men
                 ,
                 (
                 and
                 they
                 smiled
                 at
                 the
                 ignorance
                 of
                 their
                 Vulgar
                 ,
                 that
                 thought
                 otherwise
                 )
                 only
                 they
                 thought
                 of
                 them
                 just
                 as
                 you
                 do
                 of
                 the
                 Saints
                 ,
                 that
                 the
                 great
                 God
                 had
                 put
                 some
                 of
                 his
                 honour
                 upon
                 them
                 ,
                 and
                 therefore
                 they
                 might
                 worship
                 them
                 ;
                 you
                 cannot
                 be
                 so
                 silly
                 to
                 think
                 ,
                 the
                 learned
                 Heathens
                 thought
                 Augustus
                 was
                 a
                 god
                 really
                 ,
                 when
                 he
                 was
                 dead
                 ;
                 yet
                 their
                 worship
                 of
                 his
                 Image
                 was
                 Idolatry
                 .
                 And
                 they
                 that
                 worshipped
                 the
                 Image
                 of
                 Caligula
                 ,
                 (
                 while
                 he
                 lived
                 )
                 were
                 not
                 so
                 sottish
                 
                 to
                 take
                 him
                 for
                 a
                 god
                 (
                 whom
                 they
                 knew
                 to
                 be
                 a
                 foolish
                 and
                 wicked
                 man
                 )
                 yet
                 I
                 hope
                 you
                 will
                 not
                 excuse
                 them
                 from
                 Idolatry
                 .
                 But
                 further
                 ,
                 as
                 the
                 Jews
                 did
                 universally
                 understand
                 this
                 to
                 be
                 a
                 prohibition
                 of
                 all
                 manner
                 of
                 Images
                 ;
                 so
                 all
                 the
                 Prophets
                 ,
                 and
                 Christ
                 ,
                 and
                 the
                 Apostles
                 were
                 so
                 far
                 from
                 reproving
                 them
                 (
                 which
                 they
                 would
                 have
                 done
                 ,
                 if
                 it
                 had
                 been
                 an
                 Error
                 )
                 that
                 they
                 every
                 where
                 strengthen
                 them
                 in
                 this
                 opinion
                 ,
                 by
                 declaiming
                 against
                 all
                 worship
                 of
                 Images
                 ,
                 without
                 any
                 distinction
                 .
                 And
                 tell
                 me
                 ,
                 I
                 pray
                 you
                 ,
                 if
                 any
                 Jew
                 had
                 at
                 that
                 time
                 made
                 (
                 for
                 instance
                 )
                 an
                 Image
                 of
                 the
                 Sun
                 not
                 looking
                 on
                 it
                 as
                 God
                 ,
                 but
                 as
                 a
                 glorious
                 creature
                 of
                 God
                 ,
                 and
                 therefore
                 fit
                 to
                 be
                 religiously
                 worshipped
                 (
                 as
                 you
                 think
                 of
                 the
                 Saints
                 and
                 Angels
                 )
                 and
                 had
                 bowed
                 down
                 to
                 it
                 and
                 worshipped
                 it
                 :
                 Do
                 you
                 think
                 he
                 had
                 not
                 broken
                 this
                 Law
                 ?
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 I
                 dare
                 not
                 deny
                 but
                 he
                 had
                 broken
                 it
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 Yet
                 this
                 had
                 been
                 no
                 Idol
                 ,
                 but
                 an
                 Image
                 ,
                 according
                 to
                 your
                 sense
                 of
                 it
                 .
                 Besides
                 ,
                 I
                 find
                 that
                 all
                 manner
                 of
                 Images
                 are
                 forbidden
                 ,
                 Lev.
                 26.
                 1.
                 howsoever
                 ,
                 to
                 me
                 you
                 seem
                 to
                 venture
                 your
                 salvation
                 upon
                 a
                 nice
                 point
                 ,
                 for
                 the
                 Hebrew
                 word
                 is
                 neither
                 Image
                 nor
                 Idol
                 ,
                 but
                 Pesel
                 ,
                 as
                 a
                 Divine
                 
                 told
                 me
                 ;
                 and
                 this
                 ,
                 I
                 understand
                 is
                 diversly
                 translated
                 ;
                 some
                 render
                 it
                 an
                 Image
                 ,
                 others
                 an
                 Idol
                 .
                 Now
                 you
                 ventrue
                 your
                 soul
                 upon
                 it
                 ,
                 that
                 the
                 last
                 is
                 the
                 only
                 true
                 Translation
                 ,
                 which
                 is
                 a
                 dreadful
                 hazard
                 ;
                 because
                 it
                 is
                 otherwise
                 rendred
                 ,
                 not
                 only
                 by
                 Protestants
                 ,
                 but
                 by
                 the
                 most
                 and
                 best
                 ancient
                 interpreters
                 *
                 ,
                 even
                 those
                 whom
                 your
                 Vulgar
                 Translation
                 very
                 oft
                 follows
                 in
                 other
                 places
                 .
                 These
                 render
                 it
                 not
                 an
                 Idol
                 ,
                 but
                 a
                 
                   graven
                   Image
                
                 ;
                 and
                 the
                 Seventy
                 Interpreters
                 (
                 I
                 am
                 assured
                 )
                 po
                 promiscuously
                 render
                 the
                 word
                 sometimes
                 
                   an
                   Idol
                
                 ,
                 sometimes
                 
                   a
                   graven
                   Image
                
                 :
                 Nay
                 ,
                 more
                 than
                 this
                 ,
                 that
                 it
                 may
                 appear
                 how
                 desperately
                 our
                 cause
                 is
                 ,
                 I
                 am
                 informed
                 your
                 own
                 Vulgar
                 Translation
                 (
                 from
                 which
                 you
                 are
                 obliged
                 not
                 to
                 swerve
                 )
                 doth
                 frequently
                 render
                 it
                 not
                 Idol
                 ,
                 but
                 
                   a
                   graven
                   Image
                   (
                   Sculptile
                
                 )
                 particularly
                 in
                 Exod
                 20.
                 4.
                 
                 Levit.
                 26.
                 1.
                 and
                 Deut.
                 4.
                 16
                 ,
                 25.
                 and
                 5.
                 8.
                 
                 Are
                 these
                 things
                 so
                 ?
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 I
                 cannot
                 deny
                 it
                 ,
                 for
                 the
                 Authors
                 themselves
                 would
                 confute
                 me
                 ;
                 But
                 one
                 thing
                 I
                 have
                 to
                 say
                 ,
                 you
                 must
                 understand
                 one
                 Scripture
                 so
                 as
                 to
                 agree
                 with
                 another
                 :
                 Now
                 I
                 find
                 God
                 himself
                 allows
                 and
                 
                 prescribes
                 some
                 Images
                 ,
                 as
                 those
                 of
                 the
                 Cherubims
                 ;
                 either
                 then
                 he
                 contradicts
                 himself
                 ,
                 or
                 he
                 doth
                 not
                 forbid
                 all
                 Images
                 ,
                 but
                 Idols
                 only
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 Though
                 I
                 might
                 say
                 ,
                 God
                 may
                 make
                 an
                 exception
                 to
                 some
                 of
                 his
                 Laws
                 ,
                 when
                 no
                 man
                 can
                 (
                 as
                 in
                 the
                 case
                 of
                 Abraham's
                 offering
                 up
                 Isaac
                 ,
                 and
                 the
                 Israelites
                 ,
                 spoiling
                 the
                 Aegyptians
                 of
                 their
                 Jewels
                 )
                 yet
                 I
                 need
                 no
                 other
                 answer
                 but
                 this
                 ;
                 I
                 directly
                 deny
                 that
                 here
                 is
                 any
                 contradiction
                 at
                 all
                 :
                 For
                 our
                 question
                 is
                 not
                 about
                 the
                 making
                 of
                 Images
                 (
                 whether
                 by
                 Gods
                 order
                 or
                 Mans
                 )
                 but
                 about
                 the
                 worshipping
                 of
                 them
                 .
                 And
                 albeit
                 there
                 were
                 such
                 Images
                 made
                 ,
                 yet
                 they
                 were
                 not
                 made
                 to
                 be
                 worshipped
                 ,
                 as
                 I
                 before
                 proved
                 ;
                 nor
                 was
                 there
                 any
                 danger
                 the
                 people
                 should
                 worship
                 them
                 ,
                 because
                 they
                 were
                 not
                 admitted
                 to
                 see
                 them
                 .
                 But
                 I
                 pray
                 you
                 answer
                 me
                 this
                 one
                 question
                 ,
                 I
                 am
                 told
                 that
                 divers
                 of
                 your
                 own
                 Authors
                 confess
                 ,
                 that
                 the
                 Jews
                 indeed
                 were
                 ;
                 though
                 Christians
                 are
                 not
                 forbidden
                 the
                 use
                 of
                 Images
                 by
                 this
                 command
                 .
                 Is
                 it
                 so
                 ?
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 
                   These
                   indeed
                   are
                   the
                   words
                   of
                   our
                   famous
                
                 Vasquez
                 ,
                 
                   after
                   he
                   hath
                   mentioned
                   divers
                   Authors
                   for
                   the
                   contrary
                   opinion
                   ,
                
                 There
                 are
                 (
                 
                   saith
                   he
                
                 )
                 other
                 Authors
                 ,
                 neither
                 fewer
                 ,
                 nor
                 inferiour
                 to
                 them
                 ,
                 who
                 are
                 
                 of
                 the
                 contrary
                 opinion
                 ,
                 which
                 to
                 me
                 alwayes
                 seemed
                 most
                 probable
                 ,
                 to
                 wit
                 ,
                 that
                 all
                 the
                 use
                 of
                 Images
                 is
                 here
                 forbidden
                 to
                 the
                 Jews
                 a
                 ,
                 
                   and
                   for
                   this
                   he
                   quotes
                   many
                   of
                   our
                   approved
                   Authors
                   ;
                   and
                
                 Salmeron
                 
                   saith
                   no
                   less
                
                 b
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 And
                 you
                 need
                 say
                 no
                 more
                 ,
                 for
                 then
                 all
                 these
                 Authors
                 thought
                 your
                 distinction
                 of
                 Image
                 and
                 Idol
                 frivolous
                 ,
                 and
                 that
                 the
                 word
                 P●sel
                 is
                 meant
                 of
                 any
                 Images
                 ,
                 and
                 not
                 of
                 Idols
                 only
                 ,
                 as
                 you
                 foolishly
                 distinguish
                 ,
                 and
                 so
                 your
                 principal
                 refuge
                 is
                 lost
                 ,
                 and
                 you
                 are
                 convicted
                 Idolaters
                 ,
                 and
                 then
                 ,
                 if
                 you
                 repent
                 not
                 ,
                 you
                 know
                 where
                 your
                 portion
                 will
                 be
                 .
                 
                   Go
                   now
                   and
                   brag
                   of
                   the
                   safeness
                   of
                   your
                   Religion
                   .
                
              
               
                 I
                 see
                 how
                 little
                 it
                 is
                 that
                 you
                 can
                 say
                 for
                 your
                 Worship
                 of
                 the
                 Dead
                 (
                 Saints
                 and
                 their
                 Images
                 )
                 let
                 me
                 hear
                 whether
                 you
                 have
                 any
                 better
                 Arguments
                 for
                 your
                 Prayers
                 for
                 the
                 Dead
                 and
                 Purgatory
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 I
                 am
                 glad
                 you
                 mention
                 that
                 ,
                 since
                 all
                 your
                 Divines
                 do
                 agree
                 that
                 Prayer
                 for
                 the
                 Dead
                 was
                 the
                 practice
                 of
                 the
                 Antient
                 Church
                 and
                 Fathers
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 If
                 that
                 be
                 true
                 ,
                 it
                 is
                 not
                 sufficient
                 for
                 your
                 purpose
                 ,
                 for
                 I
                 am
                 fully
                 satisfied
                 
                 that
                 the
                 Fathers
                 were
                 not
                 infallible
                 ,
                 and
                 your
                 own
                 greatest
                 Doctors
                 think
                 so
                 too
                 *
                 .
                 But
                 Besides
                 ,
                 I
                 am
                 told
                 that
                 their
                 Prayers
                 for
                 the
                 dead
                 were
                 quite
                 of
                 another
                 nature
                 than
                 yours
                 ,
                 and
                 for
                 other
                 purposes
                 ,
                 and
                 they
                 were
                 grounded
                 upon
                 some
                 private
                 opinions
                 of
                 theirs
                 ,
                 which
                 you
                 disown
                 ;
                 for
                 they
                 prayed
                 not
                 only
                 for
                 those
                 whom
                 you
                 suppose
                 to
                 be
                 in
                 Purgatory
                 ,
                 but
                 for
                 those
                 who
                 (
                 you
                 confess
                 )
                 many
                 of
                 them
                 never
                 did
                 come
                 there
                 :
                 they
                 pray
                 
                   for
                   all
                   the
                   Saints
                   from
                   the
                   righteous
                
                 Abel
                 
                   to
                   this
                   day
                
                 ;
                 they
                 pray
                 
                   for
                   all
                   their
                   Ancestors
                   ,
                   Patriarchs
                   ,
                   Prophets
                   ,
                   and
                   Martyrs
                   ,
                
                 as
                 I
                 have
                 heard
                 it
                 in
                 some
                 of
                 their
                 Liturgies
                 .
                 Is
                 it
                 so
                 ?
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 It
                 is
                 so
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 I
                 pray
                 you
                 tell
                 me
                 ,
                 what
                 do
                 you
                 pray
                 for
                 the
                 Dead
                 ?
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 We
                 pray
                 that
                 God
                 would
                 deliver
                 them
                 from
                 those
                 dreadful
                 pains
                 of
                 Purgatory
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 Then
                 if
                 there
                 be
                 no
                 Purgatory
                 ,
                 the
                 foundation
                 of
                 your
                 Prayers
                 for
                 the
                 dead
                 is
                 gone
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 I
                 grant
                 it
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 Then
                 let
                 us
                 discourse
                 of
                 the
                 most
                 fundamental
                 point
                 ,
                 (
                 as
                 we
                 have
                 hitherto
                 done
                 )
                 the
                 rest
                 will
                 fall
                 of
                 course
                 .
                 Therefore
                 .
              
               
               
                 First
                 ,
                 I
                 pray
                 tell
                 me
                 your
                 opinion
                 concerning
                 Purgatory
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 
                   Our
                   Doctrine
                   in
                   brief
                   is
                   this
                   ,
                   That
                
                 though
                 God
                 freely
                 gives
                 ,
                 to
                 all
                 that
                 are
                 truly
                 penitent
                 ,
                 forgiveness
                 of
                 their
                 sins
                 ,
                 and
                 freedom
                 from
                 eternal
                 death
                 ;
                 yet
                 since
                 they
                 have
                 much
                 venial
                 sin
                 and
                 corruption
                 in
                 them
                 ,
                 in
                 which
                 oft-times
                 they
                 die
                 :
                 therefore
                 it
                 is
                 necessary
                 that
                 they
                 should
                 ,
                 for
                 the
                 expiation
                 of
                 those
                 sins
                 ,
                 and
                 for
                 the
                 satisfaction
                 of
                 Gods
                 Justice
                 ,
                 either
                 do
                 or
                 suffer
                 ,
                 such
                 Penances
                 ,
                 Fastings
                 ,
                 Prayers
                 ,
                 &c.
                 as
                 are
                 enjoyned
                 them
                 here
                 ,
                 or
                 (
                 
                   where
                   those
                   are
                   not
                   sufficient
                
                 )
                 suffer
                 the
                 pains
                 of
                 Purgatorie
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 I
                 understand
                 your
                 Doctrine
                 ;
                 now
                 let
                 me
                 hear
                 two
                 of
                 your
                 strongest
                 Arguments
                 to
                 prove
                 it
                 :
                 I
                 hear
                 that
                 Bellarmin
                 threatens
                 us
                 ,
                 that
                 
                   whosoever
                   doth
                   not
                   believe
                   Purgatory
                   ,
                   shall
                   be
                   tormented
                   in
                   Hell
                
                 a
                 Is
                 it
                 true
                 ?
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 He
                 doth
                 say
                 so
                 ,
                 and
                 I
                 am
                 of
                 his
                 mind
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 Then
                 I
                 hope
                 you
                 have
                 very
                 clear
                 Arguments
                 for
                 it
                 ,
                 because
                 you
                 lay
                 so
                 great
                 a
                 stress
                 upon
                 it
                 .
                 But
                 first
                 ,
                 I
                 have
                 heard
                 that
                 this
                 Doctrine
                 of
                 Purgatory
                 is
                 confessed
                 by
                 divers
                 of
                 your
                 own
                 Brethren
                 
                 to
                 be
                 but
                 a
                 new
                 Doctrine
                 .
                 Is
                 it
                 so
                 ?
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 I
                 will
                 not
                 dissemble
                 with
                 you
                 ,
                 several
                 of
                 our
                 Doctors
                 have
                 unadvisedly
                 blurted
                 out
                 such
                 expressions
                 as
                 these
                 :
                 our
                 famous
                 
                   English
                   Martyr
                
                 Fisher
                 
                   Bishop
                   of
                
                 Rochester
                 
                   confesseth
                   ,
                   That
                
                 Purgatory
                 was
                 for
                 a
                 long
                 time
                 unknown
                 ,
                 and
                 either
                 never
                 or
                 very
                 seldom
                 mentioned
                 among
                 the
                 Antient
                 Fathers
                 b
                 and
                 Alphonsus
                 de
                 Castro
                 
                   saith
                   ,
                   That
                
                 many
                 things
                 are
                 known
                 to
                 us
                 ,
                 of
                 which
                 the
                 Antient
                 Writers
                 were
                 altogether
                 ignorant
                 c
                 
                   and
                   amongst
                   them
                   he
                   reckons
                   Purgatory
                   ,
                
                 which
                 (
                 
                   saith
                   he
                
                 )
                 the
                 Greek
                 Writers
                 mentioned
                 not
                 ,
                 and
                 even
                 to
                 this
                 day
                 it
                 is
                 not
                 believed
                 by
                 the
                 Greek
                 Church
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 I
                 suppose
                 ,
                 you
                 do
                 not
                 think
                 all
                 these
                 Antient
                 Fathers
                 were
                 damned
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 No
                 ,
                 God
                 forbid
                 ,
                 for
                 many
                 of
                 them
                 were
                 glorious
                 Confessors
                 and
                 Martyrs
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 Then
                 I
                 see
                 Bellarmines
                 threats
                 are
                 not
                 very
                 formidable
                 .
                 But
                 to
                 let
                 this
                 pass
                 ,
                 How
                 do
                 you
                 prove
                 this
                 Doctrine
                 ?
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 
                   From
                   plain
                   Scripture
                   ,
                   1.
                   
                   From
                
                 Mat.
                 12.
                 32.
                 
                 Whosoever
                 speaketh
                 against
                 the
                 Holy
                 Ghost
                 ,
                 it
                 shall
                 not
                 be
                 forgiven
                 
                 him
                 neither
                 in
                 this
                 world
                 ,
                 neither
                 in
                 the
                 world
                 to
                 come
                 .
                 
                   Which
                   clearly
                   implies
                   ,
                   that
                   some
                   sins
                   not
                   forgiven
                   in
                   this
                   world
                   ,
                   are
                   forgiven
                   in
                   the
                   next
                   ,
                   and
                   that
                   must
                   be
                   in
                   Purgatory
                   .
                
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 I
                 pray
                 you
                 tell
                 me
                 ,
                 what
                 sins
                 are
                 they
                 which
                 are
                 forgiven
                 in
                 Purgatory
                 ?
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 Not
                 great
                 and
                 mortal
                 ,
                 but
                 small
                 and
                 venial
                 sins
                 ,
                 as
                 we
                 all
                 agree
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 Is
                 not
                 blasphemy
                 against
                 the
                 Son
                 of
                 Man
                 a
                 mortal
                 sin
                 ?
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 Yes
                 doubtless
                 ,
                 But
                 what
                 of
                 that
                 ?
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 If
                 this
                 Text
                 proves
                 the
                 pardon
                 of
                 any
                 sins
                 ,
                 it
                 proves
                 the
                 pardon
                 of
                 that
                 sin
                 no
                 less
                 than
                 others
                 ,
                 because
                 the
                 sin
                 against
                 the
                 Holy
                 Ghost
                 is
                 here
                 spoken
                 of
                 as
                 the
                 only
                 sin
                 which
                 is
                 unpardonable
                 in
                 both
                 worlds
                 :
                 Besides
                 ,
                 Christ
                 speaks
                 thus
                 in
                 opposition
                 to
                 a
                 corrupt
                 opinion
                 ,
                 which
                 ,
                 I
                 have
                 heard
                 ,
                 now
                 is
                 ,
                 and
                 then
                 was
                 rife
                 among
                 the
                 Jews
                 ,
                 to
                 wit
                 ,
                 that
                 divers
                 of
                 their
                 sins
                 were
                 pardoned
                 after
                 this
                 life
                 ,
                 and
                 that
                 this
                 was
                 one
                 of
                 their
                 antient
                 Prayers
                 ,
                 
                   Let
                   my
                   death
                   be
                   the
                   expiation
                   of
                   all
                   my
                   sins
                   :
                
                 for
                 they
                 thought
                 the
                 sufferings
                 of
                 this
                 life
                 and
                 death
                 ,
                 the
                 last
                 of
                 them
                 ,
                 did
                 free
                 them
                 from
                 the
                 punishments
                 of
                 the
                 other
                 life
                 :
                 And
                 I
                 have
                 heard
                 that
                 it
                 was
                 one
                 of
                 their
                 sayings
                 ,
                 That
                 
                   every
                   Israelite
                   hath
                   a
                   part
                   in
                   the
                   future
                   life
                   :
                
                 Are
                 these
                 things
                 so
                 ?
              
            
             
               
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 
                   To
                   deal
                   freely
                   with
                   you
                   .
                   This
                   is
                   not
                   only
                   true
                   ,
                   but
                   it
                   is
                   one
                   of
                   our
                   Arguments
                   for
                   Purgatory
                   ,
                   that
                
                 Jason
                 the
                 Cyrenian
                 (
                 
                   who
                   lived
                   long
                   before
                   Christs
                   time
                   )
                   expresly
                   affirms
                   ,
                   that
                
                 it
                 is
                 profitable
                 to
                 pray
                 for
                 the
                 dead
                 ,
                 that
                 their
                 sins
                 may
                 be
                 pardoned
                 ,
                 2
                 Mac.
                 12.
                 
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 I
                 think
                 that
                 is
                 impertinently
                 alledged
                 for
                 Purgatory
                 :
                 for
                 the
                 sin
                 those
                 men
                 died
                 in
                 ,
                 was
                 a
                 mortal
                 sin
                 ,
                 (
                 as
                 you
                 confess
                 )
                 and
                 therefore
                 not
                 pardonable
                 in
                 Purgatory
                 .
                 But
                 I
                 thank
                 you
                 for
                 this
                 ;
                 for
                 now
                 I
                 am
                 satisfied
                 that
                 it
                 was
                 an
                 antient
                 opinion
                 among
                 the
                 Iews
                 ,
                 and
                 so
                 Christ
                 had
                 just
                 occasion
                 to
                 use
                 this
                 expression
                 ,
                 to
                 confute
                 that
                 vain
                 expectation
                 of
                 theirs
                 .
                 But
                 besides
                 ,
                 the
                 meaning
                 of
                 this
                 phrase
                 ,
                 
                   Shall
                   not
                   be
                   forgiven
                
                 ,
                 is
                 ,
                 that
                 
                   it
                   shall
                   be
                   punished
                   in
                   both
                   Worlds
                   :
                
                 this
                 is
                 a
                 frequent
                 phrase
                 in
                 Scripture
                 .
                 Thus
                 
                   Exod.
                   20.
                   7.
                   
                   God
                   will
                   not
                   hold
                   him
                   guiltless
                   ,
                
                 that
                 is
                 ,
                 he
                 will
                 severely
                 punish
                 :
                 
                   To
                   accept
                   persons
                   in
                   judgment
                   is
                   not
                   good
                   ,
                
                 that
                 is
                 ,
                 
                   is
                   very
                   bad
                   ;
                   The
                   father
                   of
                   a
                   fool
                   rejoyceth
                   not
                   ,
                
                 that
                 is
                 ,
                 
                   grieveth
                   much
                
                 .
                 I
                 hear
                 S.
                 Chrysostome
                 expounds
                 it
                 thus
                 *
                 ,
                 and
                 a
                 greater
                 than
                 he
                 ,
                 S.
                 
                   Mark
                   3.
                   29.
                   
                   He
                   hath
                   never
                   forgiveness
                   ,
                   but
                   is
                   in
                   danger
                   of
                   eternal
                   damnation
                   .
                
              
               
               
                 Besides
                 all
                 this
                 ,
                 we
                 all
                 agree
                 that
                 there
                 is
                 a
                 kind
                 of
                 forgiveness
                 of
                 sin
                 after
                 this
                 life
                 ,
                 and
                 at
                 the
                 Day
                 of
                 Judgment
                 ,
                 Acts
                 3.
                 19.
                 
                 
                   Repent
                   ,
                   that
                   your
                   sins
                   may
                   be
                   blotted
                   out
                   ,
                   when
                   the
                   times
                   of
                   refreshing
                   shall
                   come
                   from
                   the
                   presence
                   of
                   the
                   Lord
                
                 ;
                 for
                 then
                 indeed
                 the
                 pardon
                 of
                 sin
                 is
                 compleated
                 and
                 fully
                 manifested
                 .
                 And
                 it
                 is
                 a
                 common
                 phrase
                 in
                 Scripture
                 to
                 speak
                 of
                 a
                 thing
                 as
                 done
                 ,
                 when
                 it
                 is
                 only
                 declared
                 and
                 manifested
                 ,
                 as
                 the
                 Apostle
                 saith
                 ,
                 those
                 words
                 ,
                 Psal.
                 2.
                 
                 
                   This
                   day
                   have
                   I
                   begotten
                   thee
                   ,
                
                 were
                 fulfilled
                 in
                 Christs
                 Resurrection
                 ,
                 Act.
                 13.
                 because
                 that
                 declared
                 him
                 to
                 be
                 the
                 only
                 begotten
                 Son
                 o
                 God
                 ,
                 as
                 S.
                 Paul
                 saith
                 ,
                 Rom.
                 1.
                 4.
                 
              
               
                 To
                 which
                 I
                 might
                 add
                 ,
                 that
                 by
                 
                   the
                   World
                   to
                   come
                
                 ,
                 Christ
                 may
                 very
                 probably
                 understand
                 the
                 time
                 of
                 the
                 New
                 Testament
                 ,
                 which
                 begun
                 at
                 Christs
                 death
                 .
                 The
                 Iews
                 (
                 I
                 hear
                 )
                 oft
                 use
                 this
                 expression
                 of
                 the
                 days
                 of
                 the
                 Messias
                 .
                 Nay
                 ,
                 the
                 Apostle
                 himself
                 doth
                 so
                 ,
                 Heb.
                 2.
                 5.
                 
                 This
                 also
                 I
                 have
                 read
                 ,
                 that
                 the
                 Iews
                 did
                 generally
                 expect
                 a
                 more
                 plentiful
                 and
                 glorious
                 remission
                 of
                 sins
                 at
                 that
                 time
                 ,
                 and
                 so
                 Christs
                 meaning
                 may
                 be
                 this
                 ,
                 That
                 
                   this
                   blasphemy
                   shall
                   not
                   be
                   forgiven
                   ,
                
                 neither
                 in
                 that
                 time
                 nor
                 state
                 of
                 the
                 Church
                 ,
                 (
                 in
                 which
                 Christ
                 then
                 was
                 )
                 nor
                 in
                 the
                 time
                 of
                 the
                 Gospel
                 
                 and
                 Kingdom
                 of
                 the
                 Messias
                 which
                 began
                 at
                 his
                 death
                 (
                 as
                 I
                 said
                 )
                 when
                 ,
                 though
                 there
                 should
                 be
                 many
                 great
                 sins
                 and
                 sinners
                 pardoned
                 (
                 as
                 we
                 see
                 there
                 were
                 )
                 yet
                 this
                 should
                 not
                 .
                 I
                 hope
                 you
                 will
                 not
                 brag
                 much
                 of
                 your
                 Argument
                 from
                 this
                 place
                 ,
                 let
                 me
                 hear
                 your
                 other
                 place
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 
                   My
                   second
                   Argument
                   is
                   from
                
                 ,
                 1
                 Cor.
                 3.
                 15.
                 
                 He
                 shall
                 be
                 saved
                 ,
                 yet
                 so
                 as
                 by
                 fire
                 ,
                 
                   that
                   is
                   ,
                   the
                   fire
                   of
                   Purgatory
                   .
                
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 It
                 seems
                 you
                 understand
                 this
                 fire
                 properly
                 ,
                 which
                 is
                 something
                 strange
                 when
                 the
                 whole
                 place
                 is
                 metaphorical
                 ,
                 or
                 figurative
                 ;
                 
                   The
                   Gold
                   and
                   Silver
                   ,
                   Hay
                   and
                   Stubble
                   ,
                
                 all
                 are
                 metaphorical
                 ,
                 and
                 so
                 doubtless
                 is
                 
                   the
                   fire
                
                 .
                 I
                 hear
                 your
                 Bellarmin
                 confesseth
                 ,
                 that
                 
                   the
                   fire
                
                 mentioned
                 ,
                 
                   v.
                   13.
                   
                   The
                   fire
                   shall
                   try
                   every
                   mans
                   work
                   ,
                
                 is
                 not
                 meant
                 of
                 Purgatory
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 He
                 doth
                 indeed
                 say
                 so
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 That
                 is
                 enough
                 to
                 overthrow
                 this
                 Argument
                 ,
                 for
                 it
                 is
                 most
                 evident
                 that
                 the
                 fire
                 ,
                 vers
                 .
                 13.
                 and
                 15.
                 is
                 one
                 and
                 the
                 same
                 .
                 And
                 this
                 Fire
                 cannot
                 be
                 Purgatory
                 ,
                 1.
                 
                 Because
                 it
                 is
                 the
                 Fire
                 of
                 the
                 Day
                 of
                 Judgement
                 ,
                 when
                 you
                 confess
                 Purgatory
                 ends
                 .
                 d
                 The
                 time
                 of
                 the
                 last
                 Judgement
                 is
                 called
                 the
                 Day
                 by
                 way
                 of
                 eminency
                 ,
                 Heb.
                 
                 10.
                 25.
                 2
                 
                 Tim.
                 1
                 :
                 12.
                 18.
                 and
                 4.
                 8.
                 and
                 1
                 Thess.
                 5.
                 4.
                 
                 And
                 
                   the
                   day
                   of
                   revelation
                   or
                   manifestation
                   of
                   all
                   things
                   ,
                
                 (
                 because
                 then
                 all
                 mens
                 works
                 will
                 be
                 manifested
                 )
                 and
                 
                   the
                   day
                   wherein
                   Christ
                   will
                   come
                   in
                   flaming
                   fire
                   .
                
                 2
                 This
                 fire
                 burns
                 the
                 works
                 of
                 men
                 ,
                 only
                 their
                 Hay
                 and
                 Stubble
                 ,
                 not
                 their
                 persons
                 ,
                 as
                 your
                 Purgatory
                 doth
                 .
                 3
                 This
                 fire
                 tries
                 both
                 good
                 and
                 bad
                 .
                 All
                 pass
                 through
                 it
                 .
                 The
                 Gold
                 and
                 Silver
                 is
                 in
                 this
                 fire
                 ,
                 no
                 less
                 than
                 the
                 Hay
                 and
                 Stubble
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 How
                 then
                 ,
                 I
                 pray
                 you
                 ,
                 do
                 you
                 understand
                 this
                 place
                 ?
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 It
                 is
                 a
                 Metaphor
                 ,
                 or
                 Figurative
                 way
                 of
                 speaking
                 ,
                 frequent
                 in
                 Scripture
                 ,
                 and
                 common
                 use
                 .
                 The
                 delivered
                 Jews
                 are
                 said
                 to
                 be
                 as
                 a
                 
                   fire
                   brand
                   pluckt
                   out
                   of
                   the
                   burning
                   ,
                   Amos
                   4.
                   11.
                   
                   Zach.
                
                 3.
                 2.
                 
                 So
                 here
                 ,
                 
                   he
                   shall
                   be
                   saved
                   so
                   as
                   by
                   fire
                   ,
                
                 that
                 is
                 ,
                 not
                 without
                 difficulty
                 of
                 loss
                 ,
                 and
                 possibly
                 some
                 momentany
                 shame
                 :
                 but
                 howsoever
                 the
                 fire
                 shall
                 burn
                 up
                 his
                 work
                 ,
                 and
                 he
                 shall
                 lose
                 that
                 part
                 of
                 his
                 reward
                 .
                 Now
                 I
                 have
                 heard
                 your
                 Arguments
                 ,
                 I
                 hope
                 you
                 will
                 hear
                 m●ne
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 I
                 am
                 ready
                 to
                 do
                 that
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 I
                 shall
                 urge
                 only
                 two
                 .
              
               
                 First
                 ,
                 Christ
                 hath
                 fully
                 paid
                 our
                 debt
                 ,
                 and
                 satisfied
                 Gods
                 Justice
                 for
                 all
                 our
                 offences
                 ;
                 
                 and
                 therefore
                 it
                 were
                 injustice
                 in
                 God
                 to
                 require
                 the
                 payment
                 of
                 any
                 part
                 of
                 that
                 debt
                 in
                 Purgatory
                 .
                 Christ
                 is
                 a
                 compleat
                 Saviour
                 ,
                 
                   His
                   blood
                   cleanseth
                   us
                   from
                   all
                   sin
                   ,
                
                 1
                 Joh.
                 1.
                 7.
                 
                 
                   He
                   is
                   able
                
                 (
                 and
                 sure
                 he
                 is
                 no
                 less
                 willing
                 )
                 
                   to
                   save
                   to
                   the
                   uttermost
                   ,
                   those
                   that
                   come
                   to
                   him
                   ,
                   Heb.
                
                 7.
                 25.
                 
                 God
                 
                   laid
                   all
                   our
                   sins
                   upon
                   him
                   ,
                   Isa.
                
                 53.
                 and
                 he
                 
                   bare
                   them
                   all
                   in
                   his
                   body
                   ,
                   1
                   Pet.
                
                 2.
                 24.
                 
                 In
                 short
                 ,
                 either
                 you
                 make
                 Christ
                 but
                 an
                 half
                 Saviour
                 and
                 believers
                 wash
                 away
                 part
                 of
                 their
                 own
                 guilt
                 ;
                 or
                 if
                 Christ
                 hath
                 fully
                 washed
                 away
                 their
                 guilt
                 ,
                 you
                 make
                 god
                 both
                 unmerciful
                 ,
                 and
                 unjust
                 ,
                 and
                 untrue
                 too
                 ;
                 so
                 dreadfully
                 to
                 punish
                 innocent
                 persons
                 ,
                 and
                 those
                 too
                 his
                 own
                 children
                 (
                 as
                 you
                 acknowledge
                 )
                 whom
                 he
                 declares
                 he
                 hath
                 freely
                 and
                 fully
                 pardoned
                 ;
                 and
                 to
                 do
                 this
                 for
                 sins
                 ,
                 which
                 you
                 confess
                 venial
                 ,
                 and
                 such
                 as
                 do
                 not
                 deserve
                 the
                 loss
                 of
                 Gods
                 favour
                 ,
                 and
                 that
                 without
                 any
                 necessity
                 ,
                 This
                 is
                 not
                 the
                 act
                 of
                 a
                 Father
                 ,
                 especially
                 so
                 tender
                 a
                 Father
                 as
                 God
                 is
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 Christ
                 is
                 a
                 sufficient
                 Saviour
                 ,
                 and
                 hath
                 fully
                 satisfied
                 ,
                 but
                 his
                 satisfaction
                 is
                 applied
                 to
                 us
                 by
                 the
                 pains
                 of
                 Purgatory
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 If
                 Purgatory
                 only
                 apply
                 Christs
                 satisfaction
                 to
                 us
                 ,
                 then
                 he
                 satisfied
                 for
                 our
                 temporal
                 as
                 well
                 as
                 our
                 eternal
                 punishments
                 ;
                 and
                 if
                 he
                 did
                 so
                 ,
                 surely
                 he
                 did
                 
                 it
                 fully
                 ,
                 or
                 not
                 at
                 all
                 .
                 Besides
                 ,
                 you
                 need
                 not
                 trouble
                 your
                 heads
                 about
                 the
                 application
                 ;
                 God
                 hath
                 provided
                 for
                 us
                 more
                 comfortable
                 means
                 of
                 application
                 ,
                 on
                 his
                 part
                 ,
                 
                   the
                   Word
                   ,
                   Sacraments
                   ,
                   and
                   Spirit
                
                 ;
                 on
                 our
                 parts
                 ,
                 Faith.
                 You
                 may
                 keep
                 Purgatory
                 for
                 your
                 own
                 use
                 ,
                 it
                 is
                 not
                 fit
                 you
                 should
                 be
                 pestered
                 with
                 any
                 Hereticks
                 there
                 .
                 But
                 was
                 ever
                 such
                 an
                 application
                 of
                 Gods
                 Grace
                 heard
                 of
                 since
                 the
                 World
                 began
                 ;
                 that
                 God
                 should
                 apply
                 his
                 Mercy
                 ,
                 and
                 the
                 Grace
                 of
                 Christ
                 Jesus
                 ,
                 by
                 such
                 exquisite
                 torments
                 ?
                 This
                 is
                 (
                 as
                 one
                 truly
                 saith
                 )
                 
                   as
                   if
                   a
                   man
                   should
                   apply
                   Physick
                   by
                   poison
                   ,
                   or
                   apply
                   the
                   light
                   of
                   the
                   Sun
                   ,
                   by
                   putting
                   out
                   our
                   eyes
                   .
                
                 God
                 deliver
                 us
                 from
                 such
                 appliers
                 .
                 This
                 is
                 as
                 if
                 a
                 Prince
                 should
                 pretend
                 a
                 free
                 pardon
                 to
                 a
                 Malefactor
                 ,
                 and
                 apply
                 it
                 by
                 putting
                 him
                 upon
                 the
                 Rack
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 Though
                 Christ
                 made
                 satisfaction
                 for
                 the
                 guilt
                 of
                 mortal
                 sins
                 ,
                 and
                 eternal
                 punishment
                 ,
                 yet
                 he
                 did
                 not
                 for
                 venial
                 sins
                 ,
                 nor
                 temporal
                 punishment
                 ;
                 and
                 therefore
                 they
                 must
                 purge
                 out
                 those
                 themselves
                 in
                 Purgatory
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 If
                 it
                 were
                 true
                 that
                 you
                 say
                 ,
                 yet
                 there
                 is
                 no
                 need
                 of
                 Purgatory
                 ;
                 for
                 this
                 purging
                 worke
                 may
                 be
                 done
                 by
                 temporal
                 afflictions
                 in
                 this
                 life
                 .
                 The
                 truth
                 is
                 ,
                 you
                 add
                 sin
                 ,
                 to
                 sin
                 ,
                 and
                 excuse
                 one
                 errour
                 with
                 another
                 .
                 But
                 what
                 do
                 you
                 mean
                 by
                 venial
                 sins
                 ?
              
            
             
               
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 We
                 mean
                 such
                 smaller
                 sins
                 as
                 do
                 not
                 exclude
                 a
                 man
                 from
                 Gods
                 favour
                 ,
                 nor
                 from
                 Heaven
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 Then
                 surely
                 you
                 have
                 very
                 slight
                 thoughts
                 of
                 sin
                 ,
                 of
                 God
                 ,
                 and
                 of
                 his
                 Law
                 ,
                 that
                 can
                 so
                 judge
                 of
                 such
                 an
                 horrid
                 evil
                 as
                 Sin.
                 Scripture
                 fully
                 condemns
                 this
                 Doctrine
                 .
                 It
                 tells
                 me
                 that
                 
                   the
                   wages
                   of
                   sin
                
                 (
                 all
                 sin
                 ,
                 without
                 any
                 difference
                 )
                 
                   is
                   death
                
                 ,
                 even
                 that
                 death
                 which
                 is
                 opposite
                 to
                 eternal
                 life
                 ,
                 Rom.
                 6.
                 23.
                 that
                 
                   He
                   that
                   shall
                   break
                   the
                   least
                   of
                   Gods
                   commands
                   ,
                   and
                   teach
                   men
                   so
                   ,
                
                 (
                 though
                 peradventure
                 he
                 do
                 it
                 ignorantly
                 and
                 so
                 according
                 to
                 your
                 opinion
                 ,
                 it
                 is
                 a
                 venial
                 sin
                 )
                 
                   shall
                   be
                   called
                   the
                   least
                   in
                   the
                   Kingdom
                   of
                   Heaven
                
                 ;
                 that
                 is
                 ,
                 he
                 shall
                 have
                 no
                 portion
                 there
                 .
                 It
                 tells
                 me
                 ,
                 
                   Cursed
                   is
                   every
                   one
                   that
                   continueth
                   not
                   in
                   all
                   things
                   written
                   in
                   the
                   Book
                   of
                   the
                   Law
                   to
                   do
                   them
                   ,
                   Gal.
                
                 3.
                 10.
                 
                 And
                 he
                 speaks
                 of
                 that
                 curse
                 which
                 Christ
                 underwent
                 for
                 us
                 ,
                 and
                 redeemed
                 us
                 from
                 .
                 It
                 tells
                 me
                 ,
                 that
                 
                   for
                   every
                   idle
                   word
                   that
                   men
                   shall
                   speak
                   ,
                   they
                   shall
                   give
                   an
                   account
                   thereof
                   in
                   the
                   Day
                   of
                   Iudgment
                   ,
                
                 (
                 and
                 
                   by
                   such
                   words
                
                 ,
                 if
                 not
                 repented
                 of
                 ,
                 
                   they
                   shall
                   be
                   condemned
                   )
                   Mat.
                
                 12.
                 36
                 ,
                 37.
                 
                 So
                 now
                 your
                 foundation
                 ,
                 and
                 one
                 of
                 the
                 Pillars
                 of
                 Purgatory
                 is
                 gone
                 .
                 And
                 as
                 for
                 your
                 other
                 fansie
                 ,
                 that
                 Christ
                 did
                 not
                 satisfie
                 for
                 our
                 temporal
                 punishments
                 ,
                 I
                 pray
                 you
                 tell
                 me
                 ,
                 
                 did
                 not
                 Christ
                 suffer
                 temporal
                 afflictions
                 ?
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 Yes
                 doubtless
                 ,
                 the
                 whole
                 Gospel
                 is
                 full
                 of
                 such
                 sufferings
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 Surely
                 all
                 that
                 Christ
                 suffered
                 ,
                 he
                 suffered
                 for
                 us
                 ,
                 both
                 in
                 our
                 stead
                 ,
                 and
                 for
                 our
                 good
                 .
                 He
                 was
                 cut
                 off
                 ,
                 
                   not
                   for
                   himself
                
                 ,
                 (
                 but
                 for
                 our
                 sins
                 )
                 Dan.
                 9.
                 25.
                 
                 It
                 was
                 for
                 our
                 sakes
                 that
                 he
                 bare
                 that
                 temporal
                 part
                 of
                 the
                 curse
                 ,
                 to
                 
                   be
                   hanged
                   on
                   a
                   Tree
                
                 ;
                 and
                 all
                 that
                 pain
                 and
                 shame
                 was
                 but
                 a
                 temporal
                 punishment
                 ,
                 Gal.
                 3.
                 13.
                 
                 I
                 read
                 ,
                 Isa.
                 53.
                 that
                 
                   Christ
                   bore
                   our
                   griefs
                   ,
                   and
                   carried
                   our
                   sorrows
                   ,
                   v.
                
                 4.
                 which
                 was
                 not
                 only
                 accomplished
                 in
                 this
                 ,
                 that
                 he
                 bare
                 the
                 guilt
                 of
                 our
                 sins
                 ,
                 as
                 
                   S.
                   Peter
                
                 expounds
                 it
                 ,
                 1
                 Pet.
                 2.
                 24.
                 but
                 also
                 in
                 this
                 ,
                 that
                 he
                 delivered
                 them
                 from
                 sicknesses
                 and
                 temporal
                 afflictions
                 ,
                 as
                 St.
                 Matthew
                 expounds
                 it
                 ,
                 Mat.
                 8.
                 16
                 ,
                 17.
                 and
                 both
                 these
                 consist
                 well
                 together
                 ,
                 since
                 Christ
                 removed
                 both
                 sin
                 the
                 cause
                 ,
                 and
                 affliction
                 the
                 effect
                 of
                 it
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 If
                 Christ
                 had
                 satisfied
                 for
                 our
                 temporal
                 punishments
                 ,
                 then
                 Believers
                 should
                 be
                 free
                 from
                 all
                 pains
                 ,
                 and
                 loss
                 ,
                 and
                 death
                 ,
                 which
                 it
                 is
                 apparent
                 they
                 are
                 not
                 ;
                 and
                 therefore
                 notwithstanding
                 the
                 fulness
                 of
                 Christs
                 satisfaction
                 ,
                 they
                 may
                 be
                 liable
                 to
                 pains
                 in
                 Purgatory
                 as
                 well
                 as
                 in
                 this
                 life
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 To
                 this
                 I
                 answer
                 three
                 things
                 .
                 First
                 ,
                 Your
                 inference
                 from
                 the
                 pains
                 of
                 
                 this
                 life
                 to
                 the
                 torments
                 of
                 Purgatory
                 is
                 weak
                 ,
                 and
                 false
                 .
                 I
                 may
                 ,
                 and
                 must
                 believe
                 ,
                 that
                 God
                 afflicts
                 his
                 people
                 here
                 ,
                 because
                 Scripture
                 and
                 Experience
                 put
                 it
                 out
                 of
                 doubt
                 .
                 But
                 that
                 Cod
                 will
                 punish
                 his
                 people
                 in
                 Purgatory
                 after
                 this
                 life
                 ,
                 no
                 Scripture
                 affirms
                 .
                 You
                 that
                 can
                 multiply
                 your
                 instances
                 of
                 the
                 sufferings
                 of
                 Believers
                 in
                 this
                 life
                 ,
                 and
                 can
                 tell
                 us
                 of
                 Adam
                 ,
                 and
                 David
                 ,
                 and
                 Solomon
                 ,
                 and
                 many
                 others
                 ,
                 have
                 not
                 to
                 this
                 day
                 been
                 able
                 (
                 though
                 often
                 urged
                 )
                 to
                 produce
                 one
                 instance
                 of
                 the
                 sufferings
                 of
                 any
                 one
                 Believer
                 ,
                 after
                 this
                 life
                 (
                 which
                 one
                 consideration
                 is
                 sufficient
                 to
                 overthrow
                 this
                 Argument
                 in
                 the
                 judgement
                 of
                 any
                 indifferent
                 man.
                 )
              
               
                 Secondly
                 ,
                 There
                 is
                 not
                 the
                 same
                 reason
                 for
                 the
                 sufferings
                 of
                 believers
                 here
                 ,
                 and
                 those
                 which
                 you
                 suppose
                 in
                 Purgatory
                 ,
                 nor
                 are
                 they
                 of
                 the
                 same
                 nature
                 .
                 The
                 present
                 sufferings
                 of
                 Believers
                 are
                 necessary
                 ,
                 (
                 1
                 
                   Pet.
                   1.
                   6.
                   
                   You
                   are
                   in
                   heaviness
                   if
                   need
                   be
                
                 )
                 both
                 for
                 Believers
                 themselves
                 to
                 subdue
                 the
                 Flesh
                 ,
                 which
                 in
                 this
                 life
                 is
                 potent
                 ,
                 and
                 altogether
                 needs
                 such
                 a
                 curb
                 .
                 
                   By
                   this
                   shall
                   the
                   iniquity
                   of
                   Iacob
                   be
                   purged
                   ,
                
                 Isa.
                 27.
                 9.
                 and
                 to
                 prevent
                 their
                 eternal
                 damnation
                 ,
                 1
                 Cor.
                 11.
                 32.
                 as
                 also
                 for
                 the
                 terror
                 and
                 caution
                 of
                 other
                 offenders
                 .
                 So
                 that
                 ,
                 albeit
                 Christ
                 hath
                 fully
                 paid
                 the
                 debt
                 ,
                 yet
                 it
                 
                 is
                 upon
                 other
                 accounts
                 convenient
                 that
                 they
                 should
                 smart
                 and
                 suffer
                 here
                 .
                 But
                 there
                 is
                 no
                 such
                 necessity
                 nor
                 use
                 of
                 Purgatory
                 sufferings
                 ,
                 neither
                 for
                 Believers
                 themselves
                 (
                 since
                 there
                 is
                 no
                 mortification
                 of
                 corruption
                 after
                 this
                 life
                 ,
                 no
                 temptations
                 to
                 sin
                 there
                 ,
                 no
                 improvement
                 of
                 grace
                 ,
                 no
                 fear
                 of
                 eternal
                 damnation
                 )
                 a
                 nor
                 for
                 example
                 and
                 warning
                 to
                 others
                 ;
                 For
                 their
                 fellow-sufferers
                 in
                 Purgatory
                 ,
                 you
                 do
                 not
                 pretend
                 they
                 are
                 at
                 all
                 edified
                 by
                 their
                 sufferings
                 ;
                 and
                 men
                 here
                 ,
                 they
                 neither
                 see
                 nor
                 know
                 any
                 thing
                 of
                 these
                 pains
                 ,
                 nor
                 hath
                 God
                 revealed
                 any
                 thing
                 concerning
                 them
                 ;
                 but
                 when
                 God
                 makes
                 any
                 examples
                 to
                 others
                 ,
                 he
                 sets
                 them
                 in
                 the
                 view
                 of
                 others
                 ,
                 or
                 at
                 least
                 acquaints
                 them
                 fully
                 therewith
                 ,
                 as
                 he
                 did
                 with
                 Hell
                 torments
                 to
                 this
                 end
                 .
                 It
                 were
                 a
                 sensles●
                 thing
                 to
                 hang
                 up
                 a
                 man
                 in
                 Iamaica
                 ,
                 for
                 the
                 terror
                 of
                 those
                 that
                 live
                 in
                 England
                 .
                 Besides
                 ,
                 the
                 sufferings
                 of
                 Believers
                 here
                 do
                 come
                 from
                 the
                 love
                 ,
                 and
                 faithfulness
                 of
                 God
                 ,
                 
                   Heb.
                   12.
                   6.
                   
                   Whom
                   the
                   Lord
                   loveth
                   he
                   chasteneth
                   ,
                   Psal.
                   119.
                   75.
                   
                   In
                   faithfulness
                   thou
                   hast
                   afflicted
                   me
                   .
                
                 Accordingly
                 ,
                 
                 good
                 men
                 have
                 looked
                 upon
                 them
                 as
                 choice
                 mercies
                 ,
                 
                   Psal.
                   97.
                   12.
                   
                   Blessed
                   is
                   the
                   man
                   whom
                   thou
                   chastnest
                   ,
                
                 and
                 Psal.
                 119.
                 67.
                 
                 
                   It
                   was
                   good
                   for
                   me
                   that
                   I
                   was
                   afflicted
                   :
                
                 and
                 the
                 denial
                 of
                 afflictions
                 is
                 threatned
                 as
                 a
                 grievous
                 punishment
                 ,
                 
                   Is.
                   1.
                   5.
                   
                   Hos.
                
                 4.
                 14.
                 17.
                 
              
               
                 But
                 now
                 the
                 sufferings
                 of
                 Purgatory
                 are
                 in
                 all
                 points
                 contrary
                 ;
                 they
                 are
                 purely
                 vindictive
                 ,
                 and
                 the
                 effects
                 of
                 meer
                 wrath
                 :
                 nor
                 do
                 you
                 esteem
                 those
                 sufferings
                 a
                 mercy
                 ,
                 and
                 your
                 happiness
                 ,
                 but
                 freedom
                 from
                 them
                 .
                 And
                 therefore
                 your
                 Argument
                 ,
                 from
                 the
                 pains
                 of
                 this
                 life
                 to
                 those
                 in
                 Purgatory
                 ,
                 is
                 foolish
                 and
                 absurd
                 .
              
               
                 Thirdly
                 ,
                 Believers
                 suffering
                 here
                 do
                 not
                 at
                 all
                 derogate
                 from
                 the
                 fulness
                 of
                 our
                 Redemption
                 by
                 Christ
                 ,
                 because
                 (
                 as
                 I
                 have
                 shewed
                 )
                 admitting
                 that
                 to
                 be
                 compleat
                 ,
                 yet
                 they
                 are
                 necessary
                 for
                 other
                 purposes
                 .
                 But
                 your
                 Purgatory
                 sufferings
                 do
                 ,
                 by
                 communicating
                 at
                 least
                 some
                 part
                 of
                 his
                 proper
                 work
                 to
                 your selves
                 .
                 You
                 profess
                 they
                 wash
                 away
                 part
                 of
                 your
                 sins
                 ,
                 which
                 is
                 Christs
                 peculiar
                 honor
                 ,
                 
                   He
                   washed
                   us
                   from
                   our
                   sins
                   in
                   his
                   own
                   blood
                   ,
                   Rev.
                
                 1.
                 5.
                 
                 You
                 make
                 them
                 a
                 part
                 of
                 the
                 curse
                 of
                 the
                 Law
                 
                   from
                   which
                
                 (
                 and
                 not
                 only
                 from
                 a
                 part
                 of
                 it
                 )
                 
                   Christ
                   hath
                   redeemed
                   us
                   ,
                   himself
                   being
                   made
                   a
                   curse
                   for
                   us
                   ,
                   Gal.
                
                 3.
                 13.
                 
                 You
                 make
                 them
                 a
                 real
                 satisfaction
                 in
                 part
                 to
                 
                 Gods
                 justice
                 (
                 which
                 is
                 not
                 satisfied
                 by
                 all
                 that
                 Christ
                 did
                 or
                 suffered
                 without
                 them
                 .
                 )
                 And
                 ,
                 in
                 a
                 word
                 ,
                 you
                 make
                 men
                 in
                 part
                 their
                 own
                 Redeemers
                 and
                 Saviours
                 I
                 hope
                 by
                 this
                 you
                 see
                 how
                 weakly
                 you
                 reason
                 from
                 present
                 troubles
                 ,
                 to
                 Purgatory
                 torments
                 ;
                 and
                 that
                 notwithstanding
                 your
                 objection
                 ,
                 my
                 first
                 Argument
                 stands
                 good
                 ag●inst
                 Purgatory
                 .
              
               
                 My
                 second
                 Argument
                 is
                 this
                 ,
                 that
                 the
                 Scripture
                 every
                 where
                 speaks
                 of
                 the
                 state
                 of
                 Believers
                 immediately
                 after
                 death
                 ,
                 as
                 happy
                 and
                 blessed
                 ;
                 and
                 that
                 all
                 the
                 sufferings
                 of
                 Believers
                 are
                 confined
                 to
                 this
                 life
                 ;
                 and
                 of
                 this
                 we
                 have
                 many
                 expressions
                 and
                 examples
                 too
                 in
                 Scripture
                 ,
                 and
                 not
                 one
                 to
                 the
                 contrary
                 .
                 
                   The
                   sufferings
                   of
                   this
                   present
                   time
                
                 (
                 saith
                 S.
                 
                   Paul
                   )
                   are
                   not
                   worthy
                   to
                   be
                   compared
                   with
                   the
                   glory
                   ,
                
                 Rom.
                 8.
                 18.
                 
                 He
                 knew
                 no
                 other
                 sufferings
                 :
                 the
                 afflictions
                 of
                 Believers
                 are
                 
                   light
                   ,
                   and
                   but
                   for
                   a
                   moment
                   ,
                
                 and
                 they
                 too
                 are
                 in
                 
                   things
                   that
                   are
                   seen
                   ,
                   2
                   Cor.
                
                 4.
                 17
                 ,
                 18.
                 and
                 therefore
                 he
                 knew
                 of
                 no
                 sufferings
                 in
                 the
                 invisible
                 world
                 ,
                 unless
                 happily
                 you
                 will
                 say
                 that
                 S.
                 Paul's
                 Travels
                 were
                 in
                 another
                 road
                 into
                 the
                 third
                 heavens
                 ,
                 and
                 so
                 he
                 was
                 ignorant
                 of
                 Purgatory
                 .
                 
                   Lazarus
                   received
                   his
                   evil
                   things
                   in
                   this
                   life
                   ,
                
                 Luk.
                 16.
                 25.
                 
                 
                   But
                   now
                   he
                   is
                   comforted
                
                 ,
                 therefore
                 surely
                 not
                 in
                 Purgatory
                 .
                 
                 
                   If
                   our
                   earthly
                   house
                   of
                   this
                   Tabernacle
                   be
                   dissolved
                   ,
                   we
                   have
                   an
                   house
                   in
                   Heaven
                   ,
                
                 saith
                 S.
                 Paul
                 ,
                 2
                 Cor.
                 5.
                 1.
                 
                 
                   We
                   are
                   no
                   longer
                   absent
                   from
                   the
                   Lord
                   ,
                   than
                   present
                   in
                   the
                   Body
                   ,
                
                 saith
                 S.
                 Paul
                 ,
                 2
                 Cor.
                 5
                 ,
                 6
                 ,
                 7
                 ,
                 8.
                 
                 The
                 Prophet
                 assures
                 us
                 ,
                 that
                 when
                 righteous
                 men
                 die
                 ,
                 
                   they
                   enter
                   into
                   peace
                   ,
                   they
                   rest
                   in
                   their
                   beds
                   ,
                
                 Isa.
                 57.
                 1
                 ,
                 2.
                 
                 I
                 tell
                 you
                 ,
                 their
                 beds
                 are
                 very
                 hard
                 ,
                 and
                 the
                 Prophets
                 mistake
                 was
                 very
                 great
                 ,
                 if
                 they
                 be
                 frying
                 in
                 the
                 flames
                 of
                 Purgatory
                 .
                 The
                 
                   Beggar
                   died
                
                 (
                 and
                 it
                 follows
                 immediately
                 )
                 
                   he
                   was
                   carried
                   by
                   Angels
                   into
                   Abrahams
                   bosom
                   .
                
                 I
                 cannot
                 think
                 these
                 Angels
                 mistook
                 their
                 way
                 :
                 the
                 Theif
                 was
                 to
                 be
                 with
                 
                   Christ
                   that
                   day
                   in
                   Paradise
                
                 ,
                 Luke
                 23.
                 43.
                 
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 The
                 Thief
                 was
                 a
                 kind
                 of
                 Martyr
                 ,
                 and
                 so
                 had
                 that
                 priviledge
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 His
                 death
                 was
                 so
                 far
                 from
                 being
                 a
                 Martyrdom
                 ,
                 that
                 it
                 was
                 a
                 just
                 punishment
                 for
                 his
                 evil
                 deeds
                 ,
                 as
                 he
                 confesseth
                 ,
                 v.
                 41.
                 
                 But
                 because
                 some
                 of
                 your
                 Martyrs
                 (
                 as
                 you
                 call
                 them
                 )
                 were
                 indeed
                 Malefactors
                 ;
                 therefore
                 to
                 salve
                 their
                 honour
                 ;
                 you
                 make
                 this
                 Malefactor
                 a
                 Martyr
                 .
                 I
                 will
                 give
                 you
                 but
                 one
                 place
                 more
                 of
                 many
                 ,
                 and
                 that
                 is
                 
                   Rev.
                   14.
                   13.
                   
                   Blessed
                   are
                   the
                   dead
                   that
                   die
                   in
                   the
                   Lord
                   ,
                   from
                   henceforth
                   ,
                   that
                   they
                   may
                   rest
                   from
                   their
                   labours
                   .
                
                 A
                 place
                 so
                 clear
                 ,
                 that
                 I
                 am
                 told
                 ,
                 a
                 famous
                 Doctor
                 of
                 your
                 
                 own
                 ,
                 and
                 one
                 of
                 the
                 
                 Sorbon-Colledge
                 ,
                 Picherellus
                 by
                 name
                 ,
                 did
                 ingenuously
                 confess
                 ,
                 St.
                 Iohn
                 had
                 in
                 these
                 few
                 words
                 put
                 out
                 the
                 fire
                 of
                 Purgatory
                 .
                 a
                 And
                 I
                 am
                 perswaded
                 you
                 would
                 have
                 been
                 ashamed
                 to
                 have
                 kindled
                 it
                 again
                 ,
                 but
                 that
                 by
                 this
                 craft
                 you
                 get
                 all
                 your
                 living
                 .
              
               
                 I
                 think
                 I
                 need
                 say
                 no
                 more
                 to
                 this
                 point
                 ,
                 let
                 us
                 now
                 go
                 to
                 another
                 .
                 We
                 have
                 discoursed
                 of
                 Purgatory
                 :
                 Now
                 if
                 you
                 please
                 ,
                 let
                 us
                 discourse
                 of
                 the
                 ways
                 whereby
                 you
                 pretend
                 to
                 free
                 men
                 from
                 it
                 ,
                 which
                 is
                 by
                 Absolutions
                 ,
                 and
                 Indulgencies
                 ,
                 and
                 that
                 which
                 is
                 necessary
                 thereunto
                 ,
                 to
                 wit
                 ,
                 Auricular
                 Confession
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 It
                 is
                 well
                 you
                 mention
                 that
                 ,
                 for
                 I
                 assure
                 you
                 it
                 is
                 a
                 matter
                 of
                 salvation
                 and
                 damnation
                 ;
                 our
                 Council
                 of
                 Trent
                 hath
                 determined
                 that
                 it
                 is
                 
                   by
                   divine
                   right
                   necessary
                
                 ,
                 and
                 as
                 attrition
                 alone
                 (
                 which
                 is
                 a
                 grief
                 for
                 sin
                 ,
                 arising
                 only
                 from
                 a
                 fear
                 of
                 hell
                 )
                 will
                 save
                 a
                 man
                 where
                 confession
                 to
                 a
                 Priest
                 follows
                 ;
                 so
                 all
                 the
                 repentance
                 in
                 the
                 world
                 will
                 never
                 save
                 him
                 ,
                 
                   without
                   this
                   Confession
                
                 to
                 a
                 Priest
                 ,
                 
                   viz.
                   actual
                
                 where
                 it
                 may
                 be
                 had
                 ,
                 or
                 
                   in
                   desire
                
                 when
                 it
                 cannot
                 be
                 actually
                 had
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 Since
                 you
                 lay
                 so
                 much
                 stress
                 upon
                 it
                 ,
                 I
                 expect
                 suitable
                 evidence
                 for
                 it
                 .
                 
                 But
                 first
                 I
                 pray
                 you
                 inform
                 me
                 ,
                 what
                 your
                 Doctrine
                 is
                 in
                 this
                 point
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 
                   I
                   will
                   give
                   you
                   that
                   in
                   the
                   words
                   of
                   the
                   Council
                   of
                
                 Trent
                 
                   as
                   near
                   as
                   I
                   can
                   :
                   they
                   say
                   ,
                   That
                
                 every
                 Christian
                 is
                 bound
                 under
                 pain
                 of
                 damnation
                 ,
                 to
                 confess
                 to
                 a
                 Priest
                 all
                 his
                 mortal
                 sins
                 ,
                 which
                 after
                 diligent
                 examination
                 he
                 can
                 possibly
                 remember
                 ;
                 yea
                 ,
                 even
                 his
                 most
                 secret
                 sins
                 ,
                 his
                 very
                 thoughts
                 ;
                 yea
                 ,
                 and
                 all
                 the
                 Circumstances
                 of
                 them
                 which
                 are
                 of
                 any
                 moment
                 a
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 Now
                 let
                 me
                 hear
                 your
                 strongest
                 Arguments
                 to
                 prove
                 this
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 You
                 shall
                 :
                 Our
                 two
                 great
                 Arguments
                 are
                 these
                 ;
                 First
                 ,
                 Priests
                 are
                 by
                 God
                 made
                 Iudges
                 ,
                 and
                 intrusted
                 with
                 power
                 of
                 the
                 Keys
                 for
                 the
                 Remission
                 of
                 Sins
                 :
                 but
                 no
                 Iudges
                 can
                 exercise
                 judicature
                 ,
                 unless
                 they
                 know
                 and
                 understand
                 the
                 cause
                 ;
                 and
                 the
                 Priest
                 must
                 know
                 all
                 the
                 particular
                 sins
                 ,
                 and
                 their
                 circumstances
                 by
                 the
                 mans
                 own
                 confession
                 ,
                 or
                 else
                 he
                 knows
                 not
                 whether
                 to
                 bind
                 or
                 loose
                 him
                 ,
                 to
                 forgive
                 or
                 to
                 condemn
                 him
                 :
                 This
                 is
                 the
                 Argument
                 upon
                 which
                 the
                 Council
                 of
                 Trent
                 builds
                 their
                 Decree
                 b
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 Tell
                 me
                 I
                 pray
                 you
                 ;
                 Is
                 it
                 necessary
                 to
                 Salvation
                 ,
                 to
                 confess
                 every
                 particular
                 
                 mortal
                 sin
                 ?
                 What
                 if
                 a
                 man
                 unavoidably
                 forget
                 some
                 of
                 them
                 ?
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 In
                 that
                 case
                 we
                 confess
                 they
                 may
                 be
                 pardoned
                 without
                 it
                 ,
                 and
                 it
                 may
                 suffice
                 to
                 say
                 with
                 
                   David
                   ,
                   Cleanse
                   thy
                   servant
                   from
                   secret
                   sins
                
                 ast;
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 Now
                 your
                 Argument
                 is
                 quite
                 lost
                 :
                 For
                 it
                 seems
                 in
                 this
                 case
                 (
                 which
                 may
                 be
                 in
                 many
                 hundreds
                 of
                 sins
                 ,
                 especially
                 in
                 a
                 person
                 of
                 bad
                 memory
                 )
                 your
                 Judge
                 can
                 pass
                 sentence
                 without
                 knowing
                 the
                 particular
                 Cause
                 ,
                 and
                 therefore
                 such
                 knowledge
                 is
                 not
                 necessary
                 to
                 his
                 giving
                 Absolution
                 .
                 Moreover
                 ,
                 tell
                 me
                 ,
                 I
                 pray
                 you
                 ,
                 may
                 not
                 a
                 Priest
                 absolve
                 him
                 from
                 his
                 sins
                 ,
                 whom
                 Christ
                 hath
                 absolved
                 ?
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 Yes
                 doubtless
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 And
                 is
                 not
                 every
                 Priest
                 bound
                 to
                 believe
                 ,
                 that
                 Christ
                 hath
                 absolved
                 every
                 person
                 that
                 is
                 truly
                 penitent
                 ?
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 There
                 is
                 no
                 question
                 of
                 that
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 Suppose
                 a
                 sinner
                 hath
                 visibly
                 forsaken
                 all
                 his
                 wicked
                 wayes
                 and
                 company
                 ,
                 and
                 lives
                 a
                 very
                 holy
                 life
                 before
                 he
                 comes
                 to
                 the
                 Priest
                 ,
                 and
                 the
                 Priest
                 is
                 certainly
                 informed
                 of
                 this
                 :
                 Is
                 not
                 the
                 Priest
                 bound
                 in
                 that
                 case
                 to
                 believe
                 he
                 is
                 truly
                 penitent
                 ?
              
            
             
               
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 I
                 should
                 be
                 most
                 uncharitable
                 if
                 I
                 should
                 deny
                 that
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Prot
                 ▪
                 
              
               
                 Then
                 he
                 may
                 without
                 any
                 more
                 ado
                 upon
                 his
                 desire
                 absolve
                 him
                 ,
                 because
                 it
                 appears
                 that
                 Christ
                 hath
                 absolved
                 him
                 ,
                 It
                 is
                 not
                 at
                 all
                 necessary
                 to
                 a
                 Priest
                 to
                 this
                 purpose
                 to
                 know
                 whether
                 a
                 man
                 be
                 a
                 greater
                 or
                 a
                 less
                 sinner
                 ,
                 since
                 the
                 grace
                 of
                 God
                 is
                 offered
                 unto
                 great
                 as
                 well
                 as
                 little
                 sinners
                 :
                 and
                 therefore
                 seeing
                 this
                 is
                 your
                 strong
                 argument
                 ,
                 and
                 that
                 learned
                 Council
                 could
                 find
                 no
                 better
                 ,
                 I
                 see
                 your
                 cause
                 is
                 very
                 low
                 and
                 bad
                 ;
                 but
                 I
                 suppose
                 you
                 have
                 some
                 other
                 Argument
                 for
                 it
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 
                   There
                   is
                   so
                   ,
                   and
                   that
                   is
                
                 Jam.
                 5.
                 16.
                 
                 Confess
                 your
                 faults
                 one
                 to
                 another
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 Is
                 this
                 your
                 strong
                 argument
                 ?
                 here
                 is
                 not
                 a
                 word
                 of
                 the
                 Priest
                 ,
                 nor
                 of
                 Confession
                 to
                 him
                 ,
                 but
                 only
                 to
                 our
                 fellow
                 Christians
                 ;
                 this
                 confession
                 is
                 mutual
                 ,
                 and
                 it
                 will
                 as
                 well
                 prove
                 that
                 the
                 Priest
                 is
                 bound
                 to
                 confess
                 his
                 sins
                 to
                 the
                 People
                 ,
                 as
                 that
                 the
                 People
                 are
                 bound
                 to
                 confess
                 to
                 the
                 Priest
                 :
                 the
                 very
                 next
                 words
                 are
                 ,
                 
                   Pray
                   one
                   for
                   another
                
                 ;
                 what
                 are
                 we
                 bound
                 to
                 pray
                 only
                 for
                 the
                 Priest
                 ?
                 It
                 is
                 one
                 thing
                 that
                 sets
                 me
                 against
                 your
                 Religion
                 to
                 consider
                 what
                 pitiful
                 arguments
                 you
                 rely
                 upon
                 .
                 I
                 am
                 assured
                 your
                 own
                 brethren
                 confess
                 the
                 weakness
                 of
                 this
                 argument
                 ,
                 as
                 
                 Vasquez
                 a
                 ,
                 and
                 Cajetan
                 b
                 ,
                 and
                 Caenus
                 c
                 ,
                 but
                 it
                 seems
                 you
                 have
                 no
                 better
                 .
                 The
                 weakness
                 of
                 your
                 arguments
                 for
                 it
                 ,
                 might
                 save
                 me
                 the
                 labour
                 of
                 mine
                 against
                 it
                 ;
                 therefore
                 I
                 shall
                 only
                 offer
                 to
                 your
                 thoughts
                 these
                 two
                 considerations
                 .
              
               
                 1.
                 
                 Your
                 doctrine
                 makes
                 that
                 necessary
                 to
                 salvation
                 which
                 God
                 hath
                 not
                 made
                 necessary
                 .
                 There
                 is
                 no
                 command
                 of
                 God
                 or
                 Christ
                 for
                 it
                 ,
                 as
                 your
                 eminent
                 Doctors
                 acknowledge
                 ,
                 ast;
                 and
                 it
                 sufficiently
                 appears
                 from
                 the
                 vanity
                 of
                 your
                 proofs
                 for
                 it
                 ;
                 you
                 confess
                 it
                 was
                 not
                 necessary
                 in
                 the
                 old
                 Testament
                 ,
                 and
                 yet
                 there
                 was
                 as
                 much
                 need
                 and
                 use
                 of
                 it
                 then
                 as
                 now
                 ,
                 and
                 Christ
                 hath
                 made
                 the
                 condition
                 of
                 his
                 Church
                 not
                 more
                 ,
                 but
                 less
                 burthensome
                 than
                 it
                 was
                 before
                 .
                 Many
                 commands
                 and
                 exhortations
                 to
                 repentance
                 there
                 are
                 in
                 Scripture
                 ,
                 not
                 one
                 which
                 either
                 commands
                 this
                 auricular
                 confession
                 to
                 a
                 Priest
                 ,
                 or
                 declares
                 the
                 necessity
                 of
                 it
                 ,
                 produce
                 one
                 place
                 and
                 I
                 yield
                 ;
                 there
                 are
                 many
                 instances
                 of
                 Iohn
                 the
                 Baptist
                 ,
                 and
                 Christ
                 and
                 the
                 Apostles
                 ,
                 either
                 actual
                 giving
                 ,
                 or
                 in
                 Gods
                 Name
                 
                 proposing
                 and
                 offering
                 remission
                 of
                 sins
                 upon
                 the
                 conditions
                 prescribed
                 in
                 the
                 Gospel
                 a
                 among
                 which
                 not
                 one
                 of
                 them
                 requires
                 this
                 auricular
                 confession
                 :
                 Bring
                 one
                 instance
                 to
                 the
                 point
                 and
                 I
                 yield
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 
                   I
                   will
                   give
                   you
                   two
                   instances
                   ,
                
                 Matt.
                 3.
                 6.
                 
                 The
                 Pharisees
                 were
                 baptized
                 —
                 confessing
                 their
                 sins
                 :
                 and
                 ,
                 the
                 conjurers
                 confessed
                 their
                 sins
                 ,
                 Act.
                 19.
                 18.
                 
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 These
                 places
                 do
                 both
                 speak
                 of
                 publick
                 confession
                 and
                 in
                 case
                 of
                 scandalous
                 sins
                 (
                 which
                 we
                 acknowledge
                 to
                 be
                 a
                 duty
                 )
                 but
                 what
                 is
                 this
                 to
                 auricular
                 confession
                 ?
                 will
                 you
                 never
                 speak
                 to
                 the
                 purpose
                 ?
                 besides
                 these
                 places
                 cannot
                 be
                 meant
                 of
                 auricular
                 confession
                 for
                 that
                 was
                 not
                 then
                 instituted
                 ,
                 as
                 your
                 council
                 of
                 Trent
                 confesseth
                 .
                 Well
                 ,
                 I
                 see
                 you
                 can
                 bring
                 neither
                 instance
                 of
                 this
                 confession
                 nor
                 precept
                 for
                 it
                 ,
                 and
                 therefore
                 I
                 am
                 sure
                 there
                 is
                 no
                 sin
                 in
                 the
                 neglect
                 of
                 it
                 ,
                 for
                 
                   where
                   there
                   is
                   no
                   law
                   ,
                   there
                   is
                   no
                   transgression
                   ,
                
                 Rom.
                 4.
                 15.
                 
              
               
                 2.
                 
                 Your
                 doctrine
                 makes
                 that
                 insufficient
                 for
                 pardon
                 and
                 salvation
                 which
                 God
                 makes
                 sufficient
                 .
                 The
                 great
                 God
                 assureth
                 us
                 .
                 
                   That
                   he
                   that
                   confesseth
                   and
                   forsaketh
                   his
                   sins
                   shall
                   find
                   mercy
                   ,
                
                 Prov.
                 28.
                 13.
                 
              
            
             
               
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 That
                 makes
                 against
                 you
                 ,
                 for
                 you
                 s●e
                 there
                 is
                 confession
                 required
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 And
                 no
                 doubt
                 it
                 is
                 a
                 mans
                 duty
                 to
                 make
                 confession
                 to
                 God
                 ,
                 and
                 in
                 case
                 of
                 wrong
                 ,
                 unto
                 men
                 ,
                 and
                 sometimes
                 to
                 a
                 Minister
                 also
                 ,
                 as
                 in
                 case
                 of
                 doubt
                 or
                 trouble
                 of
                 conscience
                 ,
                 but
                 this
                 is
                 nothing
                 to
                 auricular
                 confession
                 ,
                 nor
                 can
                 the
                 text
                 mean
                 that
                 ,
                 sor
                 you
                 grant
                 it
                 was
                 not
                 as
                 yet
                 instituted
                 .
                 God
                 declares
                 that
                 
                   if
                   the
                   wicked
                   for
                   sake
                   his
                
                 (
                 evil
                 )
                 
                   way
                   and
                   thoughts
                   and
                   turn
                   unto
                
                 God
                 ,
                 
                   he
                   shall
                   have
                   mercy
                
                 ,
                 Isa.
                 55.
                 7.
                 so
                 Isa.
                 1.
                 16.
                 17
                 ,
                 18.
                 so
                 Act.
                 16.
                 31.
                 
                 S.
                 Paul
                 in
                 Gods
                 name
                 promiseth
                 ,
                 
                   believe
                   on
                   the
                   Lord
                   Iesus
                   and
                   thou
                   shalt
                   be
                   saved
                   .
                
                 Thus
                 Ro.
                 10.
                 13.
                 
                 
                   Whosoever
                   shall
                   call
                   upon
                   the
                   name
                   of
                   the
                   Lord
                   shall
                   be
                   saved
                   :
                
                 And
                 who
                 dares
                 say
                 ,
                 that
                 he
                 that
                 doth
                 all
                 these
                 things
                 shall
                 not
                 be
                 saved
                 ,
                 unless
                 he
                 confess
                 to
                 a
                 Priest
                 ,
                 since
                 God
                 never
                 spake
                 such
                 a
                 word
                 ?
                 What
                 is
                 it
                 to
                 add
                 to
                 Gods
                 word
                 ,
                 if
                 this
                 be
                 not
                 ?
                 The
                 terms
                 upon
                 which
                 Christ
                 offered
                 promised
                 salvation
                 ,
                 are
                 
                   Repent
                   and
                   believe
                
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 Auricular
                 confession
                 is
                 a
                 part
                 of
                 repentance
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 When
                 Christ
                 preached
                 that
                 doctrine
                 it
                 was
                 no
                 part
                 of
                 repentance
                 ,
                 for
                 you
                 confess
                 it
                 was
                 not
                 then
                 instituted
                 ,
                 your
                 Council
                 of
                 Trent
                 determines
                 ,
                 that
                 it
                 was
                 instituted
                 by
                 Christ
                 after
                 his
                 resurrection
                 .
                 
                 *
                 And
                 you
                 will
                 find
                 it
                 hard
                 to
                 perswade
                 any
                 rational
                 man
                 ,
                 that
                 repentance
                 wanted
                 a
                 necessary
                 part
                 before
                 Christs
                 resurrection
                 ,
                 or
                 that
                 it
                 was
                 of
                 one
                 kind
                 before
                 it
                 ,
                 and
                 quite
                 another
                 after
                 it
                 .
                 But
                 I
                 will
                 not
                 waste
                 more
                 time
                 about
                 so
                 vain
                 a
                 fancy
                 ,
                 for
                 my
                 part
                 I
                 rest
                 upon
                 Christs
                 gracious
                 promises
                 to
                 repenting
                 and
                 believing
                 Sinners
                 :
                 By
                 Gods
                 grace
                 I
                 will
                 endeavour
                 to
                 do
                 these
                 things
                 ,
                 and
                 I
                 doubt
                 not
                 but
                 he
                 will
                 make
                 good
                 his
                 words
                 whether
                 you
                 will
                 or
                 no
                 ;
                 let
                 God
                 be
                 true
                 and
                 every
                 man
                 a
                 lyar
                 .
              
               
                 But
                 possibly
                 you
                 have
                 better
                 arguments
                 for
                 Absolutions
                 
                   and
                   Indulgences
                
                 :
                 Produce
                 them
                 ,
                 but
                 first
                 let
                 me
                 hear
                 what
                 your
                 doctrine
                 in
                 this
                 point
                 is
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 
                   I
                   will
                   give
                   you
                   this
                   in
                   brief
                   together
                   with
                   the
                   rise
                   and
                   ground
                   of
                   it
                   :
                   We
                   believe
                
                 ;
                 first
                 .
                 That
                 there
                 are
                 divers
                 Saints
                 who
                 have
                 not
                 only
                 merit
                 for
                 themselves
                 ,
                 but
                 a
                 great
                 deal
                 to
                 spare
                 ,
                 and
                 all
                 their
                 merits
                 are
                 put
                 into
                 one
                 treasury
                 .
                 Secondly
                 ,
                 That
                 these
                 merits
                 are
                 appliable
                 to
                 others
                 ,
                 so
                 as
                 God
                 will
                 pardon
                 Thomas
                 ,
                 for
                 example
                 ,
                 for
                 Iohns
                 merit
                 .
                 Thirdly
                 ,
                 That
                 God
                 hath
                 put
                 this
                 treasure
                 into
                 the
                 Churches
                 ,
                 that
                 is
                 ,
                 the
                 Popes
                 hands
                 ,
                 and
                 from
                 him
                 into
                 the
                 hands
                 of
                 all
                 Priests
                 ,
                 who
                 have
                 a
                 power
                 to
                 apply
                 these
                 merits
                 as
                 they
                 see
                 fit
                 .
              
            
             
               
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 There
                 is
                 nothing
                 sound
                 and
                 solid
                 in
                 this
                 whole
                 discourse
                 ;
                 first
                 ,
                 I
                 have
                 proved
                 that
                 there
                 is
                 no
                 Purgatory
                 ,
                 there
                 is
                 your
                 foundation
                 of
                 indulgences
                 gone
                 ;
                 next
                 I
                 hope
                 ere
                 we
                 part
                 to
                 shew
                 ,
                 that
                 there
                 is
                 no
                 such
                 thing
                 as
                 merit
                 in
                 good
                 works
                 ,
                 which
                 is
                 another
                 of
                 your
                 foundations
                 .
                 Next
                 ,
                 that
                 
                   any
                   mans
                   merits
                
                 (
                 except
                 Christs
                 )
                 may
                 be
                 applied
                 to
                 another
                 ,
                 I
                 pray
                 you
                 inform
                 me
                 ,
                 for
                 I
                 have
                 learned
                 quite
                 otherwise
                 :
                 I
                 read
                 that
                 
                   every
                   one
                   shall
                   bear
                   his
                   own
                   burden
                   ,
                
                 Gal.
                 6.
                 6.
                 
                 
                   Every
                   one
                   shall
                   receive
                   according
                   to
                   what
                   HE
                   hath
                   done
                   in
                   his
                   body
                   ,
                
                 2
                 Cor.
                 5.
                 10.
                 
                 The
                 wise
                 Virgins
                 differed
                 from
                 you
                 ,
                 they
                 thought
                 they
                 had
                 oyl
                 little
                 enough
                 for
                 themselves
                 and
                 none
                 at
                 all
                 to
                 spare
                 ,
                 Mat.
                 25.
                 9.
                 
                 So
                 if
                 you
                 are
                 Virgins
                 ,
                 it
                 seems
                 you
                 are
                 none
                 of
                 that
                 sort
                 .
                 If
                 you
                 can
                 prove
                 this
                 conceit
                 of
                 yours
                 ,
                 do
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 
                   I
                   will
                   give
                   you
                   a
                   clear
                   place
                   ,
                
                 Col.
                 1.
                 24.
                 
                 S.
                 Paul
                 saith
                 ,
                 I
                 now
                 rejoyce
                 in
                 my
                 sufferings
                 for
                 you
                 and
                 fill
                 up
                 that
                 which
                 is
                 behind
                 or
                 that
                 which
                 is
                 lacking
                 of
                 the
                 afflictions
                 of
                 Christ
                 in
                 my
                 flesh
                 for
                 his
                 bodies
                 sake
                 which
                 is
                 the
                 Church
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 First
                 tell
                 me
                 ,
                 do
                 you
                 think
                 any
                 thing
                 was
                 lacking
                 or
                 defective
                 in
                 Christs
                 sufferings
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 No
                 ,
                 You
                 use
                 to
                 charge
                 us
                 with
                 that
                 opinion
                 ,
                 but
                 falsly
                 .
              
            
             
               
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 It
                 is
                 well
                 you
                 grant
                 thus
                 much
                 ,
                 but
                 if
                 you
                 denied
                 it
                 ,
                 a
                 cloud
                 of
                 plain
                 Scriptures
                 would
                 force
                 you
                 to
                 grant
                 it
                 ,
                 which
                 tells
                 us
                 that
                 by
                 
                   one
                   offering
                   Christ
                   perfected
                   for
                   ever
                   them
                   that
                   are
                   sanctified
                   ,
                
                 Heb.
                 10.
                 14.
                 and
                 that
                 
                   he
                   is
                   able
                   to
                   save
                   to
                   the
                   uttermost
                   ,
                
                 Heb.
                 7.
                 25.
                 
                 By
                 
                   sufferings
                   of
                   Christ
                
                 then
                 ,
                 we
                 must
                 understand
                 the
                 sufferings
                 of
                 Christ
                 mystical
                 ,
                 or
                 Christ
                 in
                 his
                 members
                 ,
                 which
                 are
                 usually
                 so
                 called
                 ;
                 a
                 when
                 Christ
                 had
                 done
                 suffering
                 in
                 his
                 person
                 ,
                 he
                 left
                 it
                 as
                 a
                 legacy
                 to
                 his
                 members
                 ,
                 that
                 they
                 should
                 suffer
                 with
                 him
                 ,
                 and
                 for
                 him
                 ,
                 b
                 and
                 St.
                 Paul
                 bore
                 his
                 share
                 in
                 these
                 sufferings
                 ;
                 and
                 for
                 the
                 last
                 clause
                 of
                 his
                 
                   suffering
                   for
                   the
                   Church
                
                 ,
                 The
                 phrase
                 ,
                 it
                 is
                 true
                 ,
                 is
                 ambiguous
                 ,
                 
                   and
                   sometimes
                   indeed
                   it
                   signifies
                   to
                   satisfie
                   Gods
                   justice
                   for
                   another
                   ,
                
                 but
                 in
                 this
                 sense
                 St.
                 Paul
                 rejects
                 it
                 with
                 indignation
                 ,
                 1
                 
                   Cor.
                   1.
                   13.
                   was
                   Paul
                   crucified
                   for
                   you
                   ?
                
                 But
                 it
                 is
                 not
                 always
                 thus
                 taken
                 ,
                 for
                 St.
                 Paul
                 saith
                 he
                 suffered
                 for
                 
                   Christ
                   ,
                   2
                   Cor.
                
                 12.
                 10.
                 not
                 surely
                 to
                 satisfie
                 for
                 him
                 :
                 There
                 is
                 therefore
                 another
                 sense
                 ,
                 and
                 that
                 is
                 ,
                 he
                 suffered
                 for
                 the
                 Churches
                 edification
                 ,
                 &
                 establishment
                 ,
                 and
                 so
                 indeed
                 he
                 elsewhere
                 explains
                 himself
                 ,
                 Phil.
                 1.
                 12.
                 and
                 I
                 am
                 told
                 that
                 your
                 own
                 brethren
                 understand
                 it
                 thus
                 ,
                 c
                 and
                 
                 your
                 Bellarmin
                 confesseth
                 the
                 words
                 may
                 be
                 thus
                 expounded
                 ,
                 but
                 only
                 saith
                 ,
                 
                   the
                   words
                   may
                   conveniently
                   receive
                   this
                   sense
                   ,
                
                 a
                 which
                 is
                 as
                 much
                 as
                 to
                 say
                 ,
                 if
                 you
                 will
                 be
                 courteous
                 you
                 may
                 grant
                 him
                 the
                 Argument
                 ,
                 but
                 if
                 you
                 do
                 not
                 ,
                 he
                 cannot
                 prove
                 it
                 .
                 But
                 ,
                 admit
                 there
                 be
                 such
                 a
                 treasury
                 of
                 Merits
                 for
                 others
                 ,
                 as
                 you
                 pretended
                 ;
                 how
                 prove
                 you
                 that
                 your
                 Priests
                 are
                 made
                 Judges
                 ,
                 and
                 invested
                 with
                 such
                 a
                 power
                 of
                 distributing
                 those
                 Merits
                 and
                 giving
                 Absolutions
                 ,
                 as
                 you
                 challenge
                 ?
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 
                   Our
                   great
                   Argument
                   is
                
                 ,
                 John
                 20.
                 23.
                 
                 Whosesoever
                 sins
                 ye
                 remit
                 they
                 are
                 remitted
                 ,
                 and
                 whosesoever
                 sins
                 ye
                 retain
                 ,
                 they
                 are
                 retained
                 .
                 
                   Answer
                   me
                   this
                   Argument
                   ,
                   and
                   I
                   will
                   yield
                   up
                   this
                   Cause
                   .
                
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 What
                 Argument
                 do
                 you
                 draw
                 from
                 these
                 words
                 ?
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 
                   Hence
                   it
                   appears
                   that
                
                 Ministers
                 
                   are
                   made
                   judges
                   ,
                   and
                   intrusted
                   with
                   full
                   power
                   and
                   authority
                   of
                   binding
                   and
                   loosing
                   ;
                   so
                   as
                
                 Christ
                 doth
                 not
                 loose
                 (
                 
                   or
                   forgive
                
                 )
                 a
                 sinner
                 by
                 himself
                 ,
                 but
                 only
                 by
                 the
                 Priest
                 ,
                 as
                 Bellarmin
                 saith
                 .
                 b
                 
                   And
                   to
                   speak
                   properly
                   ,
                   as
                   our
                   most
                   learned
                
                 Vasquez
                 affirmeth
                 ,
                 God
                 doth
                 not
                 properly
                 loose
                 a
                 sinner
                 ,
                 but
                 only
                 approves
                 of
                 the
                 Priests
                 loosing
                 of
                 him
                 (
                 b
                 )
                 .
              
            
             
               
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 Now
                 in
                 my
                 opinion
                 ,
                 it
                 were
                 good
                 manners
                 to
                 make
                 the
                 Priest
                 come
                 after
                 God
                 ,
                 and
                 not
                 to
                 make
                 God
                 depend
                 upon
                 the
                 Priest.
                 It
                 seems
                 then
                 ,
                 if
                 the
                 Priest
                 ,
                 should
                 grow
                 surly
                 or
                 envious
                 ,
                 and
                 deny
                 me
                 a
                 Pardon
                 ,
                 Christ
                 cannot
                 help
                 me
                 ,
                 for
                 he
                 hath
                 given
                 the
                 power
                 out
                 of
                 his
                 hands
                 :
                 So
                 you
                 make
                 the
                 Priest
                 the
                 Judge
                 ,
                 and
                 God
                 only
                 the
                 Approver
                 .
                 The
                 Lord
                 rebuke
                 this
                 spirit
                 of
                 Blasphemy
                 .
                 Again
                 ,
                 nothing
                 is
                 more
                 familiar
                 in
                 Scripture
                 than
                 for
                 Gods
                 Ministers
                 to
                 be
                 said
                 to
                 do
                 that
                 ,
                 which
                 they
                 do
                 only
                 authoritatively
                 declare
                 that
                 God
                 will
                 do
                 .
                 Thus
                 God
                 saith
                 to
                 
                   Ieremy
                   ,
                   I
                   have
                   set
                   thee
                   over
                   Kingdoms
                   to
                   root
                   out
                   ,
                   and
                   pull
                   down
                   ,
                   and
                   destroy
                   ,
                
                 that
                 is
                 ,
                 by
                 declaring
                 that
                 God
                 would
                 do
                 it
                 :
                 In
                 like
                 manner
                 Gods
                 Ministers
                 are
                 said
                 to
                 bind
                 and
                 loose
                 ,
                 because
                 they
                 have
                 from
                 God
                 authority
                 ,
                 to
                 declare
                 a
                 Sinner
                 to
                 be
                 bound
                 by
                 his
                 Sins
                 ,
                 or
                 loosed
                 from
                 them
                 ,
                 which
                 (
                 if
                 they
                 declare
                 truly
                 and
                 according
                 to
                 Gods
                 word
                 )
                 God
                 in
                 heaven
                 doth
                 and
                 will
                 make
                 it
                 good
                 .
                 As
                 for
                 this
                 Text
                 ,
                 it
                 saith
                 nothing
                 but
                 this
                 ,
                 that
                 every
                 one
                 whom
                 they
                 bind
                 or
                 loose
                 ,
                 that
                 is
                 ,
                 proceeding
                 according
                 to
                 their
                 rule
                 ,
                 (
                 which
                 is
                 always
                 to
                 be
                 understood
                 )
                 shall
                 be
                 bound
                 or
                 loosed
                 in
                 heaven
                 ;
                 but
                 it
                 doth
                 not
                 say
                 that
                 no
                 man
                 is
                 bound
                 or
                 loosed
                 ,
                 but
                 they
                 whom
                 
                 the
                 Priest
                 bindeth
                 and
                 looseth
                 .
              
            
             
               But
               besides
               ,
               if
               all
               these
               things
               were
               granted
               ,
               how
               doth
               this
               Text
               prove
               that
               the
               Priest
               or
               Pope
               can
               absolve
               or
               release
               any
               souls
               out
               of
               Purgatory
               ,
               if
               there
               were
               such
               a
               place
               ?
               I
               pray
               you
               tell
               me
               ,
               can
               the
               Pope
               binde
               any
               soul
               and
               keep
               him
               in
               Purgatory
               ?
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 No
                 ,
                 we
                 do
                 not
                 pretend
                 to
                 that
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 Then
                 he
                 cannot
                 loose
                 a
                 soul
                 neither
                 out
                 of
                 Purgatory
                 ;
                 for
                 I
                 am
                 sure
                 binding
                 and
                 loosing
                 are
                 of
                 the
                 same
                 extent
                 .
                 But
                 upon
                 second
                 thoughts
                 ,
                 I
                 must
                 own
                 your
                 discretion
                 ;
                 for
                 the
                 binding
                 of
                 souls
                 in
                 Purgatory
                 was
                 an
                 invidious
                 and
                 unprofitable
                 work
                 ,
                 and
                 would
                 have
                 bound
                 up
                 mens
                 hearts
                 and
                 purses
                 :
                 It
                 is
                 only
                 the
                 loosing
                 of
                 them
                 out
                 which
                 opens
                 their
                 purse
                 strings
                 ,
                 &
                 tends
                 to
                 the
                 edification
                 of
                 the
                 Church
                 ,
                 that
                 is
                 ,
                 the
                 Pope
                 and
                 Priests
                 (
                 as
                 they
                 always
                 understand
                 that
                 word
                 .
                 )
                 In
                 sober
                 sadness
                 ,
                 it
                 is
                 enough
                 to
                 make
                 any
                 serious
                 Christian
                 abhor
                 your
                 Church
                 ,
                 that
                 your
                 Pope
                 should
                 not
                 be
                 content
                 to
                 usurp
                 a
                 power
                 over
                 the
                 whole
                 visible
                 world
                 ,
                 but
                 that
                 he
                 should
                 extend
                 his
                 Authority
                 to
                 the
                 other
                 world
                 ,
                 even
                 to
                 Purgatory
                 .
                 In
                 my
                 opinion
                 he
                 had
                 done
                 more
                 wisely
                 to
                 have
                 extended
                 his
                 empire
                 to
                 Hell
                 ,
                 for
                 there
                 are
                 many
                 of
                 his
                 Predecessours
                 (
                 so
                 far
                 as
                 
                 can
                 be
                 judged
                 by
                 any
                 mans
                 life
                 )
                 whom
                 he
                 might
                 have
                 appointed
                 his
                 Deputies
                 :
                 but
                 there
                 is
                 never
                 a
                 Pope
                 in
                 Purgatory
                 ;
                 for
                 they
                 who
                 can
                 release
                 others
                 at
                 pleasure
                 ,
                 will
                 certainly
                 deliver
                 themselves
                 :
                 But
                 now
                 I
                 speak
                 of
                 that
                 ,
                 I
                 pray
                 you
                 tell
                 me
                 if
                 it
                 be
                 true
                 that
                 I
                 have
                 heard
                 ,
                 that
                 the
                 Pope
                 when
                 he
                 dies
                 ,
                 receives
                 Absolution
                 from
                 his
                 Confessor
                 ,
                 and
                 that
                 after
                 his
                 death
                 the
                 Cardinals
                 give
                 him
                 Absolution
                 ,
                 and
                 give
                 order
                 for
                 the
                 singing
                 of
                 abundance
                 of
                 Masses
                 ?
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 
                   It
                   is
                   true
                   ,
                   I
                   was
                   at
                
                 Rome
                 
                   when
                   the
                   last
                   Pope
                   died
                   ,
                   and
                   it
                   was
                   so
                   then
                   ,
                   and
                   our
                   Books
                   justifie
                   it
                   .
                
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 I
                 am
                 much
                 pleased
                 with
                 your
                 ingenuity
                 ,
                 so
                 the
                 Pope
                 gives
                 the
                 Priest
                 a
                 power
                 to
                 pardon
                 himself
                 ;
                 methinks
                 he
                 might
                 save
                 the
                 charges
                 of
                 a
                 Confessor
                 ;
                 it
                 were
                 enough
                 to
                 say
                 ,
                 
                   I
                   absolve
                   my self
                
                 .
                 But
                 tell
                 me
                 ,
                 do
                 you
                 say
                 Masses
                 for
                 any
                 that
                 are
                 in
                 Heaven
                 or
                 in
                 Hell.
                 
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 No
                 ,
                 we
                 utterly
                 disclaim
                 that
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 Then
                 I
                 perceive
                 the
                 Pope
                 goes
                 into
                 Purgatory
                 .
                 I
                 see
                 your
                 Popes
                 are
                 not
                 self-seeking
                 men
                 (
                 as
                 they
                 are
                 slandered
                 to
                 be
                 )
                 that
                 help
                 so
                 many
                 thousands
                 out
                 of
                 Purgatory
                 ,
                 and
                 leave
                 themselves
                 in
                 .
              
            
             
               But
               really
               ,
               this
               is
               to
               me
               a
               convincing
               Argument
               ,
               that
               you
               do
               not
               believe
               your
               
               selves
               ,
               but
               deceive
               poor
               silly
               people
               against
               your
               Consciences
               :
               For
               else
               you
               might
               be
               assured
               the
               Pope
               would
               never
               come
               into
               Purgatory
               ;
               for
               you
               say
               he
               can
               keep
               himself
               out
               ,
               and
               no
               man
               doubts
               of
               his
               will
               to
               do
               it
               .
               Besides
               ,
               your
               Doctrine
               usurps
               upon
               God's
               Prerogative
               .
               I
               had
               thought
               it
               was
               only
               my
               Father
               in
               Heaven
               to
               whom
               I
               should
               have
               prayed
               ,
               
                 Forgive
                 us
                 our
                 Trespasses
              
               :
               Now
               it
               seems
               we
               must
               pray
               so
               to
               one
               of
               these
               Padre's
               upon
               earth
               .
               You
               make
               Subjects
               the
               supream
               Judges
               of
               all
               Offences
               committed
               against
               their
               Soveraign
               ,
               and
               your
               Priests
               sit
               as
               Umpires
               between
               God
               and
               the
               Sinner
               ,
               and
               determine
               what
               Satisfaction
               God
               shall
               have
               ,
               and
               what
               Penance
               the
               Sinner
               shall
               undergo
               .
               Methinks
               they
               are
               brave
               fellows
               ;
               and
               I
               now
               see
               it
               was
               not
               without
               ground
               that
               Father
               Cotton
               bragged
               ,
               That
               
                 he
                 could
                 do
                 any
                 thing
                 when
                 he
                 had
                 his
                 God
                 in
                 his
                 hand
                 ,
              
               (
               that
               was
               the
               Sacrament
               )
               
                 and
                 his
                 King
                 upon
                 his
                 knees
              
               (
               in
               Confession
               .
               )
               I
               think
               you
               will
               bring
               Christ
               upon
               his
               knees
               too
               ,
               for
               it
               seems
               you
               have
               resolved
               ,
               that
               he
               shall
               stand
               to
               your
               Priests
               Arbitration
               .
            
             
               I
               might
               add
               to
               this
               ,
               that
               you
               leave
               the
               souls
               of
               people
               to
               endless
               perplexities
               ;
               you
               confess
               ,
               that
               Indulgences
               profit
               not
               ,
               
                 If
                 a
                 man
                 be
                 not
                 in
                 the
                 state
                 of
                 grace
              
               a
               ,
               
               (
               which
               you
               say
               a
               man
               cannot
               certainly
               know
               )
               or
               
                 if
                 a
                 man
                 have
                 not
                 made
                 a
                 free
                 and
                 full
                 Confession
                 after
                 sufficient
                 examination
              
               *
               and
               who
               knows
               when
               he
               hath
               done
               these
               things
               sufficiently
               ?
               )
               or
               
                 if
                 the
                 Priest
                 do
                 not
                 intend
                 to
                 pardon
                 him
              
               (
               and
               who
               knows
               another
               mans
               intentions
               ?
               )
               and
               yet
               you
               would
               have
               me
               so
               desperate
               to
               venture
               my
               soul
               upon
               such
               sandy
               foundations
               ,
               that
               your selves
               are
               afraid
               and
               ashamed
               of
               .
               But
               ,
               to
               leave
               this
               ,
               I
               perceive
               that
               this
               ,
               and
               divers
               of
               your
               other
               Doctrines
               are
               grounded
               upon
               that
               of
               the
               merit
               of
               good
               works
               ,
               which
               because
               I
               judge
               a
               very
               pernicious
               and
               dangerous
               Doctrine
               ;
               let
               me
               hear
               what
               you
               can
               say
               for
               it
               :
               but
               first
               ,
               let
               me
               understand
               your
               Doctrine
               :
               for
               I
               have
               heard
               some
               of
               you
               cry
               out
               ,
               that
               our
               Divines
               slandered
               them
               ,
               and
               profess
               that
               they
               did
               not
               hold
               Merit
               strictly
               ,
               but
               cast
               the
               honour
               of
               all
               upon
               Christ
               and
               the
               grace
               of
               God
               ;
               therefore
               I
               pray
               you
               inform
               me
               .
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 
                   I
                   will
                   be
                   plain
                   and
                   candid
                   with
                   you
                   ,
                   I
                   do
                   not
                   like
                   such
                   Artifices
                   ;
                   The
                   Council
                   of
                
                 Trent
                 
                   in
                   plain
                   terms
                   affirms
                   ,
                   That
                
                 our
                 good
                 works
                 do
                 truly
                 merit
                 increase
                 of
                 grace
                 and
                 eternal
                 life
                 a
                 ;
                 
                   and
                   our
                   famous
                
                 
                 Bellarmiue
                 
                   disputes
                   ,
                   and
                   proves
                   ,
                   That
                
                 good
                 works
                 do
                 not
                 only
                 merit
                 in
                 respect
                 of
                 Gods
                 gracious
                 Covenant
                 ,
                 but
                 in
                 regard
                 of
                 the
                 worthiness
                 of
                 the
                 works
                 themselves
                 ,
                 and
                 that
                 eternal
                 life
                 is
                 not
                 only
                 due
                 from
                 Gods
                 liberality
                 ,
                 but
                 from
                 his
                 just
                 judgment
                 b
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 I
                 pray
                 you
                 tell
                 me
                 ,
                 hath
                 Bellarmin
                 such
                 expressions
                 as
                 these
                 ,
                 That
                 
                   because
                   God
                   would
                   honour
                   his
                   children
                   ,
                   he
                   would
                   have
                   them
                   to
                   get
                   Heaven
                   by
                   their
                   merits
                   ,
                   which
                   is
                   more
                   honourable
                   to
                   them
                   ,
                   than
                   to
                   receive
                   it
                   ly
                   Gods
                   free
                   gift
                   ?
                
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 Bellarmine
                 
                   doth
                   say
                   so
                
                 c
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 I
                 see
                 he
                 was
                 a
                 man
                 of
                 a
                 brave
                 spirit
                 ,
                 and
                 much
                 a
                 Gentleman
                 :
                 but
                 in
                 my
                 poor
                 opinion
                 ,
                 he
                 should
                 have
                 taken
                 a
                 little
                 care
                 for
                 the
                 honour
                 of
                 God
                 ,
                 as
                 well
                 as
                 of
                 the
                 Saints
                 .
                 But
                 I
                 have
                 heard
                 of
                 many
                 other
                 strange
                 expressions
                 ascribed
                 to
                 your
                 Authors
                 .
                 I
                 hear
                 your
                 Tapperus
                 saith
                 ,
                 
                   Far
                   be
                   it
                   from
                   them
                   ,
                   that
                   righteous
                   men
                   should
                   expect
                   eternal
                   life
                   as
                   a
                   beggar
                   doth
                   an
                   alms
                   .
                   It
                   is
                   much
                   more
                   glorious
                   that
                   they
                   should
                   receive
                   it
                   as
                   Conquerours
                   and
                   Triumphers
                   ,
                   and
                   possess
                   it
                   as
                   a
                   reward
                   due
                   to
                   their
                   labours
                
                 d
                 ;
                 I
                 see
                 also
                 this
                 was
                 a
                 man
                 
                 of
                 honour
                 :
                 And
                 again
                 ,
                 That
                 
                   our
                   good
                   works
                   deserve
                   the
                   reward
                   from
                   God
                   as
                   from
                   a
                   just
                   Iudge
                   ,
                   and
                   are
                   able
                   to
                   abide
                   the
                   severe
                   judgement
                   of
                   God
                   ,
                   though
                   he
                   weigh
                   all
                   Circumstances
                
                 c
                 .
                 I
                 am
                 told
                 that
                 your
                 renowned
                 Vasquez
                 saith
                 ,
                 That
                 
                   Eternal
                   life
                   is
                   due
                   to
                   the
                   works
                   of
                   good
                   men
                   ,
                   without
                   any
                   Covenant
                   ,
                   or
                   the
                   favour
                   of
                   God
                
                 d
                 .
                 And
                 your
                 learned
                 Cajetan
                 and
                 
                   Dominicus
                   à
                   Scoto
                
                 say
                 as
                 much
                 ,
                 as
                 I
                 hear
                 Bellarmine
                 reports
                 e
                 .
                 And
                 that
                 Vasquez
                 again
                 saith
                 ,
                 
                   The
                   merits
                   or
                   Person
                   of
                   Christ
                   adds
                   no
                   worth
                   to
                   the
                   works
                   of
                   good
                   men
                
                 f
                 .
                 This
                 man
                 was
                 resolved
                 so
                 far
                 to
                 tread
                 in
                 
                 Abraham's
                 steps
                 ;
                 as
                 Abraham
                 would
                 not
                 receive
                 from
                 the
                 King
                 of
                 Sodom
                 ,
                 so
                 he
                 would
                 not
                 receive
                 from
                 Christ
                 ,
                 from
                 a
                 thread
                 to
                 a
                 shoe-latchet
                 ,
                 lest
                 it
                 should
                 be
                 said
                 Christ
                 had
                 made
                 him
                 rich
                 .
                 Are
                 these
                 things
                 true
                 ?
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 It
                 is
                 so
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 Then
                 sure
                 I
                 am
                 ,
                 our
                 Religion
                 is
                 the
                 safest
                 way
                 ;
                 If
                 we
                 do
                 err
                 ,
                 it
                 is
                 in
                 giving
                 too
                 much
                 to
                 God
                 ;
                 but
                 if
                 you
                 err
                 ,
                 it
                 is
                 no
                 less
                 than
                 the
                 worst
                 kind
                 of
                 sacriledge
                 to
                 rob
                 God
                 of
                 so
                 much
                 of
                 his
                 glory
                 and
                 the
                 honour
                 of
                 your
                 Salvation
                 .
                 Yet
                 ,
                 if
                 
                 you
                 can
                 prove
                 this
                 ,
                 I
                 will
                 receive
                 it
                 .
                 Produce
                 your
                 strongest
                 Arguments
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 
                   First
                   then
                   ,
                   I
                   prove
                   it
                   hence
                   ,
                   That
                
                 Eternal
                 life
                 is
                 called
                 a
                 reward
                 ,
                 Mat.
                 5.
                 12.
                 
                   and
                   given
                   to
                   Labourers
                   in
                   the
                   Vineyard
                   ,
                
                 Mat.
                 20.
                 
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 We
                 must
                 compare
                 Scripture
                 with
                 Scripture
                 :
                 other
                 places
                 tell
                 us
                 ,
                 it
                 is
                 an
                 Inheritance
                 ,
                 
                   Gal.
                   4.
                   7.
                   
                   Rom.
                
                 8.
                 17.
                 
                 The
                 same
                 Estate
                 cannot
                 be
                 mine
                 both
                 by
                 inheritance
                 and
                 purchase
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 
                   Yes
                   it
                   may
                   ,
                   I
                   will
                   prove
                   it
                   by
                   an
                   instance
                   .
                   The
                   glory
                   which
                   Christ
                   had
                   was
                   his
                   by
                   inheritance
                   (
                   for
                   he
                   was
                   heir
                   of
                   all
                   things
                   )
                   and
                   yet
                   by
                   purchase
                   ,
                
                 Philip.
                 2.
                 8
                 ,
                 9.
                 
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 I
                 thank
                 you
                 for
                 this
                 objection
                 :
                 I
                 have
                 scarce
                 had
                 any
                 thing
                 from
                 you
                 like
                 a
                 solid
                 Argument
                 but
                 this
                 :
                 It
                 deserves
                 an
                 Answer
                 ;
                 First
                 then
                 ,
                 this
                 will
                 not
                 reach
                 our
                 case
                 :
                 The
                 great
                 hinderance
                 of
                 merit
                 in
                 our
                 works
                 is
                 ,
                 that
                 the
                 best
                 of
                 them
                 are
                 imperfect
                 ,
                 and
                 a
                 debt
                 we
                 owe
                 to
                 God
                 before
                 hand
                 ;
                 but
                 Christs
                 works
                 are
                 of
                 another
                 kind
                 ,
                 they
                 are
                 compleat
                 and
                 perfect
                 ,
                 and
                 in
                 part
                 no
                 debt
                 ;
                 for
                 though
                 when
                 Christ
                 was
                 made
                 Man
                 ,
                 he
                 was
                 a
                 debtor
                 to
                 God
                 ,
                 and
                 bound
                 as
                 a
                 creature
                 to
                 fulfill
                 the
                 Law
                 ,
                 yet
                 this
                 was
                 a
                 voluntary
                 act
                 ,
                 and
                 no
                 debt
                 to
                 God
                 ,
                 that
                 he
                 would
                 
                 become
                 Man
                 ,
                 and
                 so
                 put
                 himself
                 under
                 the
                 Law.
                 Besides
                 ,
                 the
                 dignity
                 of
                 his
                 Person
                 made
                 his
                 works
                 proportionable
                 unto
                 all
                 the
                 glory
                 he
                 received
                 ;
                 whereas
                 
                   all
                   our
                   sufferings
                   are
                   not
                   worthy
                   to
                   be
                   compared
                   with
                   our
                   glory
                   ,
                
                 Rom.
                 8.
                 18.
                 
                 Secondly
                 ,
                 It
                 might
                 be
                 both
                 an
                 Inheritance
                 and
                 Parchase
                 in
                 Christ
                 in
                 divers
                 respects
                 ;
                 because
                 he
                 had
                 two
                 natures
                 ;
                 as
                 he
                 was
                 God
                 ,
                 or
                 the
                 Son
                 of
                 God
                 ,
                 it
                 was
                 his
                 Inheritance
                 ,
                 and
                 belonged
                 to
                 his
                 Manhood
                 only
                 as
                 united
                 with
                 the
                 Godhead
                 ;
                 as
                 he
                 was
                 Man
                 ,
                 he
                 might
                 purchase
                 it
                 ,
                 by
                 what
                 he
                 did
                 and
                 suffered
                 in
                 the
                 flesh
                 :
                 But
                 in
                 us
                 there
                 are
                 not
                 two
                 natures
                 ,
                 nor
                 any
                 of
                 these
                 pretences
                 to
                 merit
                 .
                 Moreover
                 Scripture
                 speaks
                 of
                 two
                 kinds
                 of
                 Rewards
                 ,
                 the
                 one
                 of
                 Grace
                 ,
                 the
                 other
                 of
                 Debt
                 ,
                 and
                 withal
                 affirms
                 ,
                 that
                 the
                 reward
                 which
                 God
                 gives
                 to
                 good
                 men
                 is
                 meerly
                 of
                 grace
                 ,
                 (
                 as
                 we
                 profess
                 )
                 and
                 not
                 of
                 debt
                 (
                 as
                 you
                 pretend
                 )
                 Rom.
                 4.
                 4.
                 
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 
                   Possibly
                   it
                   may
                   be
                   of
                   both
                   ,
                   as
                
                 Bellarmin
                 saith
                 *
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 No
                 ,
                 the
                 Apostle
                 forbids
                 that
                 ,
                 Rom.
                 11.
                 6.
                 
                 
                   If
                   by
                   grace
                   ,
                   it
                   is
                   no
                   more
                   of
                   works
                   ,
                   otherwise
                   grace
                   is
                   no
                   more
                   grace
                   ,
                   but
                   if
                   it
                   be
                   of
                   works
                   ,
                   then
                   it
                   is
                   no
                   more
                   grace
                   ,
                   
                   otherwise
                   work
                   is
                   no
                   more
                   work
                   ,
                
                 and
                 this
                 
                   reward
                   is
                   not
                   given
                   to
                   him
                   that
                   worketh
                   ,
                   but
                   believeth
                   ,
                
                 Rom
                 4.
                 5.
                 
                 No
                 Protestant
                 could
                 speak
                 our
                 Doctrine
                 more
                 fully
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 
                   But
                   God
                   gives
                   this
                   reward
                   to
                   men
                   for
                   working
                   in
                   his
                   Vineyard
                   ,
                
                 Mat.
                 20.
                 
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 It
                 is
                 true
                 ;
                 but
                 still
                 the
                 reward
                 appears
                 to
                 be
                 of
                 grace
                 ,
                 because
                 it
                 is
                 alike
                 to
                 him
                 that
                 came
                 at
                 the
                 last
                 hour
                 ,
                 as
                 to
                 them
                 that
                 had
                 born
                 the
                 heat
                 and
                 burden
                 of
                 the
                 day
                 ,
                 vers
                 .
                 12.
                 but
                 that
                 Heaven
                 is
                 a
                 reward
                 of
                 Justice
                 ,
                 and
                 a
                 due
                 debt
                 ,
                 (
                 as
                 you
                 profess
                 )
                 this
                 Text
                 proves
                 not
                 ,
                 and
                 other
                 Scriptures
                 plainly
                 contradict
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 
                   But
                   God
                   is
                   said
                   to
                   reward
                   men
                
                 according
                 to
                 their
                 works
                 ,
                 
                   that
                   is
                   according
                   to
                   the
                   proportion
                   of
                   them
                   ,
                   and
                   that
                   implies
                   merit
                   .
                
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 Not
                 so
                 neither
                 ;
                 for
                 since
                 
                   God
                   is
                   pleased
                   to
                   reward
                   in
                   us
                   ,
                   his
                   own
                   gifts
                   and
                   graces
                   ,
                   not
                   our
                   merits
                   ,
                
                 as
                 S.
                 Bernard
                 speaks
                 ,
                 he
                 may
                 still
                 keep
                 the
                 proportion
                 ,
                 and
                 to
                 them
                 to
                 whom
                 he
                 gives
                 more
                 grace
                 here
                 ,
                 he
                 may
                 give
                 more
                 glory
                 hereafter
                 ;
                 and
                 yet
                 there
                 is
                 no
                 more
                 merit
                 in
                 this
                 additional
                 reward
                 than
                 in
                 the
                 rest
                 .
                 Again
                 ,
                 I
                 may
                 as
                 well
                 conclude
                 ,
                 that
                 the
                 blind
                 men
                 merited
                 their
                 sight
                 ,
                 because
                 Christ
                 saith
                 ,
                 
                   Be
                   it
                   unto
                   you
                   according
                   to
                   your
                   faith
                   ,
                
                 Matth.
                 9.
                 29.
                 as
                 you
                 gather
                 merit
                 from
                 
                 this
                 phrase
                 ,
                 
                   according
                   to
                   your
                   work
                
                 ;
                 therefore
                 let
                 me
                 hear
                 if
                 you
                 have
                 any
                 other
                 Argument
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 
                   Our
                   works
                   are
                   mentioned
                   as
                   the
                   causes
                   for
                   which
                   God
                   gives
                   eternal
                   life
                   ,
                   Mat.
                
                 25.
                 
                 Come
                 ye
                 blessed
                 ,
                 for
                 I
                 was
                 hungry
                 and
                 you
                 fed
                 me
                 ,
                 
                   and
                   other
                   like
                   places
                
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 S.
                 Paul
                 did
                 not
                 think
                 this
                 a
                 good
                 Argument
                 ;
                 for
                 though
                 he
                 knew
                 that
                 it
                 was
                 said
                 of
                 
                   Abraham
                   ,
                   Because
                   thou
                   hast
                   done
                   this
                   ,
                   I
                   will
                   bless
                   thee
                   ,
                
                 Gen.
                 22.
                 16
                 ,
                 17.
                 yet
                 he
                 positively
                 denies
                 the
                 merit
                 of
                 
                 Abraham's
                 works
                 ,
                 Rom.
                 4.
                 
                 &
                 Gal.
                 3.
                 
                 And
                 he
                 saith
                 of
                 himself
                 ,
                 
                   I
                   obtained
                   mercy
                   ,
                   because
                   I
                   did
                   it
                   ignorantly
                   ,
                
                 1
                 Tim.
                 1.
                 13.
                 yet
                 I
                 hope
                 you
                 do
                 not
                 think
                 his
                 ignorance
                 merited
                 mercy
                 :
                 The
                 King
                 saith
                 ,
                 
                   I
                   forgive
                   thee
                   all
                   that
                   debt
                   ,
                   because
                   thou
                   desiredst
                   me
                   ,
                
                 Mat.
                 18.
                 32.
                 
                 Did
                 his
                 asking
                 deserve
                 it
                 ?
                 Besides
                 all
                 this
                 ,
                 if
                 God
                 did
                 reward
                 them
                 for
                 their
                 good
                 works
                 ,
                 this
                 will
                 not
                 prove
                 merit
                 ;
                 if
                 God
                 reward
                 men
                 infinitely
                 more
                 than
                 their
                 good
                 works
                 deserve
                 (
                 as
                 God
                 indeed
                 doth
                 )
                 and
                 Bellarmine
                 acknowledgeth
                 so
                 much
                 .
                 *
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 
                   But
                   good
                   men
                   are
                   said
                   to
                   be
                   worthy
                   ,
                
                 Rev.
                 3.
                 4.
                 
              
            
             
               
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 They
                 are
                 so
                 comparatively
                 to
                 other
                 men
                 ,
                 and
                 also
                 by
                 Gods
                 gracious
                 acceptation
                 in
                 and
                 through
                 Christ
                 ,
                 but
                 otherwise
                 the
                 holiest
                 Saints
                 of
                 God
                 have
                 ever
                 judged
                 themselves
                 unworthy
                 of
                 the
                 least
                 of
                 Gods
                 mercies
                 (
                 so
                 far
                 were
                 they
                 from
                 thinking
                 they
                 were
                 worthy
                 of
                 eternal
                 life
                 )
                 
                   Gen.
                   32.
                   10.
                   
                   Mat.
                
                 8
                 8.
                 
                 And
                 since
                 it
                 is
                 Gods
                 grace
                 which
                 gives
                 them
                 all
                 their
                 worth
                 and
                 meetness
                 for
                 Heaven
                 ,
                 Coloss.
                 1.
                 12.
                 it
                 is
                 impudence
                 to
                 pretend
                 to
                 merit
                 from
                 God
                 by
                 it
                 .
                 If
                 yet
                 you
                 will
                 boast
                 of
                 your
                 own
                 worth
                 and
                 merit
                 ,
                 answer
                 the
                 Apostles
                 question
                 at
                 your
                 leasure
                 ,
                 1
                 
                   Cor.
                   4.
                   7.
                   
                   For
                   who
                   maketh
                   thee
                   to
                   differ
                   from
                   another
                   ?
                   and
                   what
                   hast
                   thou
                   that
                   thou
                   didst
                   not
                   receive
                   ?
                   now
                   if
                   thou
                   didst
                   receive
                   it
                   ,
                   why
                   dost
                   thou
                   glory
                   as
                   if
                   thou
                   hadst
                   not
                   received
                   it
                   ?
                
                 If
                 you
                 can
                 baffle
                 your
                 conscience
                 now
                 ,
                 you
                 will
                 find
                 it
                 an
                 hard
                 question
                 to
                 answer
                 at
                 the
                 last
                 day
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 
                   But
                   eternal
                   life
                   is
                   given
                   them
                   by
                   Gods
                   justice
                   ,
                
                 2
                 Thess.
                 4.
                 6.
                 1
                 
                 Tim.
                 4.
                 7
                 ,
                 8.
                 
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 This
                 word
                 also
                 doth
                 not
                 prove
                 any
                 merit
                 ,
                 for
                 Gods
                 Justice
                 is
                 oft-times
                 taken
                 improperly
                 ,
                 I
                 read
                 1
                 Iohn
                 1.
                 9.
                 
                 
                   If
                   we
                   confess
                   our
                   sins
                   he
                   is
                   just
                   and
                   faithful
                   to
                   forgive
                   them
                   ,
                
                 yet
                 justification
                 is
                 not
                 merited
                 as
                 you
                 confess
                 ,
                 but
                 is
                 an
                 act
                 of
                 
                 meer
                 grace
                 ,
                 
                   being
                   justified
                   freely
                   by
                   his
                   grace
                   ,
                
                 &c.
                 Rom.
                 3.
                 24
                 ,
                 28.
                 thus
                 ,
                 2
                 Pet.
                 1.
                 1.
                 we
                 are
                 said
                 to
                 
                   obtain
                   precious
                   faith
                   through
                   the
                   righteousness
                   of
                   God
                
                 ;
                 and
                 yet
                 faith
                 is
                 the
                 gift
                 of
                 God
                 ,
                 and
                 you
                 confess
                 that
                 is
                 given
                 without
                 merit
                 (
                 for
                 you
                 grant
                 none
                 but
                 justified
                 persons
                 can
                 merit
                 )
                 therefore
                 ,
                 in
                 such
                 places
                 ,
                 justice
                 is
                 taken
                 either
                 for
                 equity
                 and
                 the
                 congruity
                 of
                 it
                 with
                 Gods
                 nature
                 or
                 word
                 ,
                 or
                 for
                 the
                 faithfulness
                 of
                 God
                 ,
                 or
                 the
                 like
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 
                   Since
                   you
                   despise
                   my
                   arguments
                   ,
                   let
                   me
                   hear
                   if
                   you
                   have
                   better
                   against
                   the
                   merit
                   of
                   good
                   works
                   .
                
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 You
                 shall
                 ,
                 and
                 methinks
                 that
                 one
                 place
                 ,
                 Luke
                 17.
                 10.
                 should
                 convince
                 you
                 ,
                 
                   when
                   ye
                   shall
                   have
                   done
                   all
                   these
                   things
                   which
                   are
                   commanded
                   you
                   ,
                   say
                   we
                   are
                   unprofitable
                   servants
                   ,
                   we
                   have
                   done
                   that
                   which
                   was
                   our
                   duty
                   to
                   do
                   .
                
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 
                   Christ
                   doth
                   not
                   affirm
                   they
                   are
                   unprofitable
                   ,
                   but
                   only
                   bids
                   them
                   say
                   they
                   are
                   unprofitable
                   ,
                   and
                   teaches
                   them
                   to
                   be
                   humble
                   .
                
                 a
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 Very
                 well
                 :
                 then
                 you
                 think
                 Christ
                 taught
                 them
                 to
                 think
                 one
                 thing
                 ,
                 and
                 say
                 another
                 ,
                 that
                 is
                 ,
                 he
                 taught
                 them
                 the
                 art
                 of
                 lying
                 ,
                 and
                 that
                 to
                 God.
                 
              
            
             
               
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 
                   I
                   answer
                   further
                   ,
                   that
                   without
                   Gods
                   grace
                   men
                   are
                   unprofitable
                   ,
                   they
                   only
                   can
                   merit
                   that
                   are
                   in
                   the
                   state
                   of
                   grace
                   as
                   our
                   Church
                   holds
                   .
                
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 Doth
                 not
                 your
                 Conscience
                 tell
                 you
                 the
                 Apostles
                 ,
                 whom
                 Christ
                 commands
                 to
                 say
                 thus
                 ,
                 were
                 in
                 the
                 state
                 of
                 grace
                 ?
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 
                   Though
                   a
                   man
                   cannot
                   profit
                   God
                   ,
                   he
                   may
                   profit
                   himself
                   .
                
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 If
                 he
                 cannot
                 profit
                 God
                 ,
                 he
                 cannot
                 properly
                 merit
                 any
                 thing
                 from
                 God
                 ,
                 for
                 that
                 implies
                 a
                 proportion
                 between
                 giving
                 and
                 receiving
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 
                   It
                   is
                   true
                   we
                   are
                   unprofitable
                   by
                   our selves
                   in
                   regard
                   of
                   Gods
                   absolute
                   Soveraignty
                   ,
                   but
                   not
                   unprofitable
                   in
                   regard
                   of
                   Gods
                   gracious
                   Covenant
                   .
                
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 It
                 is
                 ridiculous
                 to
                 say
                 ,
                 that
                 is
                 merit
                 properly
                 which
                 depends
                 on
                 Gods
                 meer
                 grace
                 ,
                 and
                 besides
                 the
                 Pharisees
                 themselves
                 ,
                 whose
                 errour
                 Christ
                 there
                 strikes
                 at
                 ,
                 were
                 never
                 so
                 vain
                 or
                 absurd
                 to
                 think
                 ,
                 that
                 they
                 could
                 be
                 profitable
                 to
                 God
                 ,
                 in
                 any
                 other
                 sense
                 than
                 what
                 you
                 affirm
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 Let
                 me
                 hear
                 your
                 other
                 Argument
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 The
                 nature
                 of
                 merit
                 shews
                 the
                 impossibility
                 of
                 it
                 in
                 men
                 :
                 It
                 is
                 evident
                 that
                 to
                 merit
                 ,
                 these
                 amongst
                 other
                 ingredients
                 ,
                 are
                 required
                 .
              
            
             
             
               First
               ,
               that
               the
               work
               be
               not
               due
               already
               :
               doth
               any
               man
               deserve
               an
               estate
               for
               that
               money
               whereby
               he
               payes
               an
               old
               debt
               ?
            
             
               Secondly
               ,
               That
               the
               work
               be
               our
               own
               ;
               you
               do
               not
               think
               a
               noble
               mans
               Almoner
               ,
               merits
               by
               distributing
               his
               Masters
               Alms.
               
            
             
               Thirdly
               ,
               that
               it
               be
               profitable
               to
               him
               of
               whom
               he
               merits
               .
            
             
               Fourthly
               ,
               That
               the
               work
               be
               perfect
               ;
               for
               that
               action
               which
               needs
               a
               pardon
               ,
               certainly
               cannot
               deserve
               a
               reward
               .
            
             
               Fifthly
               ,
               That
               it
               be
               suitable
               to
               the
               reward
               ;
               if
               I
               present
               my
               Prince
               with
               an
               Horse
               ,
               and
               he
               requites
               me
               with
               a
               Lordship
               ,
               who
               but
               a
               Horse
               would
               pretend
               this
               was
               merited
               ?
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 
                   I
                   must
                   acknowledge
                   most
                   of
                   these
                   things
                   are
                   true
                   ,
                   but
                   this
                   doth
                   not
                   concern
                   our
                   works
                   .
                
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 That
                 we
                 will
                 now
                 examine
                 ,
                 and
                 first
                 ,
                 all
                 the
                 works
                 now
                 we
                 can
                 do
                 for
                 God
                 are
                 deserved
                 by
                 him
                 :
                 It
                 fills
                 me
                 with
                 horrour
                 to
                 hear
                 men
                 pretending
                 to
                 merit
                 of
                 that
                 God
                 ,
                 who
                 (
                 as
                 they
                 profess
                 )
                 created
                 them
                 ,
                 and
                 every
                 day
                 upholds
                 their
                 souls
                 in
                 life
                 ,
                 and
                 redeemed
                 them
                 ,
                 and
                 is
                 so
                 infinitely
                 before
                 hand
                 with
                 them
                 every
                 way
                 ;
                 Tell
                 me
                 ,
                 dare
                 you
                 say
                 that
                 God
                 doth
                 
                 not
                 deserve
                 ,
                 that
                 you
                 should
                 do
                 the
                 utmost
                 you
                 can
                 ,
                 for
                 his
                 service
                 and
                 glory
                 ?
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 I
                 will
                 not
                 say
                 so
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 Then
                 it
                 is
                 impudence
                 to
                 pretend
                 merit
                 from
                 God
                 ;
                 besides
                 ,
                 the
                 good
                 works
                 we
                 do
                 ,
                 are
                 not
                 properly
                 our
                 own
                 ,
                 but
                 Gods
                 ;
                 
                   Faith
                   is
                   the
                   gift
                   of
                   G●d
                   ,
                
                 Ephes.
                 2.
                 8.
                 
                 Phil.
                 1.
                 29.
                 
                 
                   So
                   is
                   Repentance
                
                 ,
                 Acts
                 11.
                 18.
                 
                 &
                 5.
                 31.
                 and
                 in
                 general
                 ,
                 
                   every
                   good
                   and
                   perfect
                   gift
                   is
                   from
                   God
                   ,
                
                 Jam.
                 1.
                 17.
                 
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 
                   The
                   first
                   grace
                   is
                   from
                   God
                   ,
                   but
                   that
                   I
                   use
                   it
                   right
                   ,
                   that
                   is
                   from
                   my self
                   ,
                   and
                   thereby
                   it
                   is
                   that
                   I
                   merit
                   .
                
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 St.
                 Paul
                 was
                 not
                 of
                 your
                 mind
                 ;
                 what
                 good
                 work
                 is
                 there
                 but
                 it
                 lies
                 either
                 in
                 willing
                 or
                 doing
                 ?
                 yet
                 both
                 these
                 
                   God
                   works
                   in
                   us
                
                 ,
                 Phil.
                 2.
                 13.
                 not
                 only
                 the
                 power
                 of
                 believing
                 ,
                 but
                 the
                 act
                 too
                 ,
                 (
                 and
                 suffering
                 also
                 )
                 is
                 
                   the
                   gift
                   of
                   God
                   ,
                   Phil.
                
                 1.
                 29.
                 and
                 St.
                 Pauls
                 abundant
                 labours
                 in
                 the
                 Gospel
                 ,
                 which
                 certainly
                 amounted
                 to
                 merit
                 ,
                 if
                 there
                 were
                 ever
                 such
                 a
                 thing
                 in
                 the
                 world
                 ,
                 and
                 which
                 ,
                 if
                 any
                 thing
                 ,
                 was
                 his
                 own
                 act
                 ,
                 yet
                 he
                 dare
                 not
                 take
                 to
                 himself
                 ,
                 
                   I
                   laboured
                   ,
                   yet
                   not
                   I
                   ,
                   but
                   the
                   grace
                   of
                   God
                   which
                   was
                   with
                   me
                   ,
                
                 1
                 Cor.
                 15.
                 10.
                 
                 No
                 less
                 evident
                 is
                 it
                 ,
                 that
                 our
                 works
                 cannot
                 profit
                 God
                 ,
                 
                   Psal.
                   16.
                   4.
                   
                   Iob
                
                 22.
                 3.
                 
                 &
                 35.
                 7
                 ,
                 as
                 also
                 our
                 best
                 works
                 are
                 so
                 
                 far
                 from
                 meriting
                 ,
                 that
                 they
                 need
                 a
                 pardon
                 for
                 the
                 infirmities
                 accompanying
                 them
                 ,
                 by
                 reason
                 of
                 which
                 the
                 best
                 of
                 Saints
                 have
                 been
                 afraid
                 of
                 the
                 severe
                 judgments
                 of
                 God
                 even
                 upon
                 their
                 best
                 works
                 ;
                 so
                 was
                 Iob
                 a
                 and
                 David
                 b
                 and
                 Paul
                 c
                 And
                 lastly
                 ,
                 it
                 is
                 so
                 evident
                 that
                 our
                 works
                 are
                 not
                 proportionable
                 to
                 the
                 reward
                 ,
                 that
                 Bellarmin
                 hath
                 a
                 Chapter
                 upon
                 this
                 head
                 ,
                 to
                 prove
                 that
                 
                   good
                   works
                   are
                   rewarded
                   above
                   their
                   desert
                
                 ;
                 d
                 and
                 therefore
                 it
                 is
                 an
                 intollerable
                 arrogance
                 to
                 affirm
                 that
                 divers
                 of
                 the
                 Saints
                 have
                 not
                 only
                 merit
                 enough
                 to
                 purchase
                 eternal
                 life
                 ,
                 but
                 a
                 great
                 deal
                 to
                 spare
                 for
                 the
                 relief
                 of
                 others
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 To
                 let
                 this
                 point
                 pass
                 ,
                 now
                 I
                 would
                 willingly
                 be
                 informed
                 of
                 two
                 things
                 ,
                 which
                 concern
                 us
                 Lay-people
                 in
                 an
                 especial
                 manner
                 ;
              
               
                 First
                 ,
                 Why
                 you
                 defraud
                 us
                 of
                 the
                 Cup.
                 
              
               
                 Secondly
                 ,
                 Why
                 you
                 order
                 Prayer
                 to
                 be
                 made
                 in
                 a
                 language
                 that
                 many
                 ,
                 nay
                 ,
                 most
                 of
                 us
                 do
                 not
                 understand
                 :
                 For
                 the
                 first
                 ,
                 you
                 rob
                 us
                 of
                 one
                 half
                 of
                 the
                 Sacrament
                 ,
                 
                 viz.
                 of
                 the
                 Cup
                 ;
                 what
                 can
                 you
                 say
                 to
                 acquit
                 your selves
                 from
                 sacriledge
                 ?
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 
                   Let
                   me
                   hear
                   what
                   right
                   you
                   have
                   to
                   it
                   .
                
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 First
                 ,
                 I
                 remember
                 you
                 disputed
                 for
                 Transubstantiation
                 out
                 of
                 Iohn
                 6.
                 which
                 ,
                 you
                 said
                 ,
                 spoke
                 of
                 the
                 Sacrament
                 ;
                 now
                 if
                 you
                 say
                 true
                 ,
                 there
                 is
                 a
                 passage
                 in
                 it
                 ,
                 verse
                 53
                 ,
                 
                   except
                   you
                   eat
                   the
                   flesh
                   of
                   the
                   Son
                   of
                   man
                   and
                   drink
                   his
                   blood
                   ,
                   you
                   have
                   no
                   life
                   in
                   you
                
                 ;
                 if
                 this
                 be
                 spoken
                 of
                 the
                 Sacrament
                 (
                 as
                 you
                 say
                 it
                 is
                 )
                 and
                 the
                 wine
                 be
                 really
                 his
                 blood
                 ,
                 then
                 you
                 do
                 no
                 less
                 than
                 murder
                 all
                 your
                 people
                 ,
                 by
                 robbing
                 them
                 of
                 that
                 which
                 is
                 necessary
                 to
                 their
                 life
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 
                   Not
                   so
                   ,
                   (
                   for
                   as
                   I
                   shall
                   shew
                   you
                   )
                   you
                   have
                   the
                   blood
                   in
                   the
                   body
                   (
                   or
                   bread
                   .
                   )
                
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 If
                 it
                 be
                 so
                 ,
                 yet
                 my
                 taking
                 it
                 in
                 that
                 manner
                 cannot
                 be
                 called
                 a
                 drinking
                 it
                 ,
                 unless
                 you
                 will
                 say
                 that
                 every
                 man
                 that
                 eats
                 rawish
                 meat
                 ,
                 may
                 be
                 said
                 to
                 drink
                 the
                 blood
                 which
                 he
                 eats
                 in
                 it
                 ;
                 but
                 further
                 ,
                 I
                 think
                 we
                 have
                 as
                 great
                 right
                 to
                 the
                 cup
                 as
                 your
                 Priests
                 ,
                 we
                 have
                 Christs
                 
                   do
                   this
                
                 ,
                 and
                 you
                 pretend
                 no
                 more
                 ;
                 in
                 short
                 ,
                 we
                 have
                 both
                 the
                 legacy
                 and
                 command
                 of
                 Christ
                 fortified
                 with
                 this
                 strong
                 reason
                 ,
                 
                   this
                   cup
                   is
                   the
                   new
                   Testament
                   in
                   my
                   blood
                   which
                   is
                   
                   shed
                   for
                   many
                   for
                   the
                   remission
                   of
                   sins
                
                 ;
                 whereby
                 it
                 sufficiently
                 appears
                 ,
                 that
                 the
                 signe
                 belongs
                 to
                 all
                 that
                 have
                 interest
                 in
                 the
                 thing
                 ,
                 and
                 are
                 capable
                 of
                 discerning
                 the
                 Lords
                 body
                 ;
                 and
                 this
                 command
                 of
                 Christ
                 is
                 express
                 and
                 positive
                 ,
                 
                   Mat.
                   26.
                   
                   Drink
                   ye
                   ALL
                   of
                   it
                   ,
                
                 it
                 is
                 remarkable
                 that
                 he
                 doth
                 not
                 say
                 ,
                 eat
                 ye
                 all
                 (
                 though
                 they
                 were
                 to
                 do
                 so
                 )
                 but
                 drink
                 ye
                 all
                 of
                 it
                 ,
                 as
                 foreseeing
                 the
                 sacriledge
                 of
                 your
                 Church
                 ;
                 what
                 can
                 you
                 say
                 to
                 this
                 ?
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 
                   First
                   I
                   say
                   here
                   is
                   no
                   command
                   but
                   an
                   institution
                   only
                   .
                
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 I
                 understand
                 no
                 subtilties
                 ;
                 but
                 if
                 you
                 say
                 ,
                 this
                 was
                 no
                 command
                 of
                 drinking
                 ,
                 then
                 it
                 was
                 no
                 command
                 of
                 eating
                 ,
                 to
                 say
                 ,
                 
                   take
                   ,
                   eat
                
                 ,
                 and
                 so
                 the
                 Sacrament
                 is
                 not
                 commanded
                 :
                 but
                 people
                 may
                 receive
                 or
                 refuse
                 it
                 as
                 they
                 please
                 ,
                 and
                 Christs
                 
                   do
                   this
                
                 is
                 no
                 more
                 than
                 
                   do
                   as
                   you
                   list
                
                 ;
                 for
                 my
                 part
                 I
                 shall
                 never
                 know
                 when
                 Christ
                 commands
                 any
                 thing
                 ,
                 if
                 this
                 be
                 not
                 a
                 command
                 ,
                 for
                 no
                 command
                 can
                 run
                 in
                 more
                 express
                 words
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 
                   If
                   this
                   be
                   a
                   command
                   ,
                   it
                   concerns
                   only
                
                 Priests
                 ,
                 
                   for
                   such
                   the
                   Apostles
                   were
                   ,
                   and
                   they
                   only
                   were
                   present
                   .
                
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 Since
                 it
                 is
                 evident
                 ,
                 that
                 eating
                 and
                 drinking
                 belong
                 to
                 the
                 same
                 persons
                 ,
                 if
                 the
                 one
                 be
                 restrained
                 to
                 the
                 Apostles
                 ;
                 
                 so
                 is
                 the
                 other
                 ,
                 and
                 because
                 you
                 confess
                 the
                 eating
                 belongs
                 to
                 the
                 people
                 by
                 vertue
                 of
                 this
                 precept
                 .
                 [
                 
                   Eat
                   of
                   it
                
                 ]
                 by
                 the
                 same
                 reason
                 also
                 doth
                 the
                 drinking
                 reach
                 to
                 them
                 also
                 by
                 vertue
                 of
                 that
                 precept
                 ,
                 [
                 
                   Drink
                   of
                   it
                
                 .
                 ]
                 Besides
                 the
                 Apostles
                 though
                 they
                 were
                 Ministers
                 ,
                 yet
                 in
                 this
                 act
                 they
                 were
                 in
                 
                   the
                   peoples
                
                 stead
                 ,
                 and
                 Christ
                 was
                 the
                 Minister
                 or
                 dispenser
                 of
                 the
                 Sacrament
                 ,
                 and
                 they
                 only
                 the
                 receivers
                 of
                 it
                 at
                 this
                 time
                 .
              
               
                 Besides
                 ,
                 as
                 they
                 were
                 Ministers
                 he
                 bad
                 them
                 
                   do
                   this
                
                 ,
                 that
                 is
                 ,
                 take
                 and
                 distribute
                 bread
                 and
                 wine
                 to
                 the
                 people
                 as
                 he
                 had
                 to
                 them
                 ;
                 If
                 Ministers
                 be
                 under
                 any
                 command
                 of
                 administring
                 and
                 giving
                 the
                 Sacrament
                 ,
                 certainly
                 it
                 is
                 here
                 (
                 for
                 no
                 command
                 can
                 be
                 more
                 express
                 )
                 and
                 if
                 they
                 are
                 commanded
                 to
                 give
                 the
                 bread
                 to
                 the
                 people
                 ,
                 they
                 are
                 commanded
                 to
                 give
                 the
                 wine
                 also
                 ,
                 for
                 here
                 is
                 no
                 difference
                 at
                 all
                 .
              
               
                 Adde
                 to
                 this
                 that
                 St.
                 Paul
                 hath
                 put
                 this
                 out
                 of
                 doubt
                 ,
                 and
                 he
                 expounds
                 this
                 of
                 ,
                 and
                 applies
                 it
                 to
                 the
                 people
                 ,
                 for
                 thus
                 he
                 writes
                 to
                 all
                 the
                 Corinthians
                 ,
                 
                   Let
                   a
                   man
                   examine
                   himself
                   ,
                   and
                   so
                   let
                   him
                   eat
                   of
                   that
                   bread
                   and
                   drink
                   of
                   that
                   Cup
                   ,
                
                 1
                 Cor.
                 11.
                 28.
                 in
                 four
                 verses
                 together
                 ,
                 viz.
                 26
                 ,
                 27
                 ,
                 28
                 ,
                 29.
                 eating
                 and
                 drinking
                 are
                 inseparably
                 
                 joyned
                 together
                 ,
                 which
                 you
                 have
                 so
                 wickedly
                 divided
                 :
                 If
                 it
                 be
                 a
                 Command
                 ,
                 
                   Let
                   a
                   man
                   examine
                   himself
                
                 ,
                 (
                 which
                 none
                 will
                 deny
                 )
                 then
                 it
                 is
                 a
                 Command
                 (
                 which
                 immediately
                 follows
                 )
                 
                   so
                   let
                   him
                   eat
                   this
                   Bread
                   ,
                   and
                   drink
                   this
                   Cup.
                   
                
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 It
                 doth
                 not
                 appear
                 ,
                 that
                 there
                 is
                 an
                 absolute
                 command
                 of
                 drinking
                 ,
                 but
                 only
                 that
                 as
                 oft
                 as
                 they
                 do
                 drink
                 it
                 ,
                 they
                 should
                 drink
                 it
                 in
                 remembrance
                 of
                 Christ.
                 
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 If
                 this
                 be
                 so
                 ,
                 then
                 here
                 is
                 no
                 command
                 for
                 the
                 Priest
                 ,
                 either
                 to
                 Consecrate
                 the
                 Cup
                 ,
                 or
                 to
                 Receive
                 it
                 .
                 And
                 further
                 ,
                 then
                 here
                 is
                 no
                 command
                 for
                 his
                 Consecrating
                 or
                 receiving
                 the
                 Bread
                 neither
                 ;
                 for
                 there
                 is
                 no
                 more
                 than
                 a
                 
                   Do
                   this
                
                 ,
                 and
                 that
                 is
                 for
                 the
                 Wine
                 as
                 well
                 as
                 for
                 the
                 Bread.
                 
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 Here
                 is
                 a
                 difference
                 ,
                 for
                 he
                 saith
                 of
                 the
                 Body
                 simply
                 ,
                 
                   Do
                   this
                   in
                   remembrance
                   of
                   me
                
                 ;
                 but
                 of
                 the
                 Cup
                 ,
                 
                   This
                   do
                   ye
                   as
                   oft
                   as
                   you
                   drink
                   it
                   .
                
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 If
                 you
                 lay
                 any
                 stress
                 upon
                 these
                 words
                 ,
                 
                   as
                   oft
                   as
                   you
                   do
                   it
                   ,
                
                 I
                 beseech
                 you
                 make
                 use
                 of
                 your
                 eyes
                 ,
                 and
                 you
                 shall
                 read
                 that
                 it
                 is
                 said
                 of
                 the
                 Bread
                 as
                 well
                 as
                 of
                 the
                 Cup
                 ,
                 Vers.
                 26.
                 
                 
                   For
                   as
                   oft
                   as
                   ye
                   eat
                   this
                   Bread
                   ,
                   and
                   drink
                   this
                   Cup.
                
                 Well
                 ,
                 I
                 am
                 sorry
                 to
                 see
                 that
                 you
                 dare
                 oppose
                 such
                 plain
                 Scripture
                 upon
                 
                 such
                 pitiful
                 pretences
                 .
                 But
                 I
                 pray
                 you
                 let
                 me
                 ask
                 you
                 ,
                 I
                 have
                 been
                 told
                 that
                 your
                 famous
                 Council
                 of
                 Censtance
                 ,
                 in
                 their
                 Canon
                 ,
                 for
                 the
                 receiving
                 the
                 Sacrament
                 in
                 one
                 kind
                 ,
                 have
                 these
                 expressions
                 ;
                 
                   Although
                   Christ
                   did
                   Minister
                   this
                   Sacrament
                   und●r
                   the
                   forms
                   of
                   Bread
                   and
                   Wine
                   —
                   And
                   although
                   in
                   the
                   Primitive
                   Church
                   this
                   —
                   Sacrament
                   was
                   received
                   by
                   the
                   faithful
                   under
                   both
                   kinds
                
                 —
                 Yet
                 they
                 make
                 a
                 Canon
                 that
                 it
                 shall
                 be
                 received
                 under
                 one
                 kinde
                 only
                 .
                 Is
                 this
                 so
                 ?
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 It
                 is
                 true
                 ;
                 they
                 are
                 the
                 very
                 words
                 of
                 the
                 Council
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 This
                 was
                 a
                 wise
                 Council
                 indeed
                 ,
                 wiser
                 than
                 Christ
                 and
                 all
                 his
                 Apostles
                 ;
                 but
                 I
                 should
                 think
                 we
                 are
                 on
                 the
                 safest
                 side
                 ,
                 having
                 Christ
                 and
                 all
                 the
                 Primitive
                 Churches
                 for
                 our
                 patterns
                 :
                 and
                 by
                 this
                 I
                 see
                 what
                 to
                 judge
                 of
                 your
                 glorious
                 pretences
                 ,
                 that
                 yours
                 is
                 the
                 Antient
                 and
                 Apostolical
                 Faith
                 ,
                 and
                 ours
                 (
                 forsooth
                 )
                 but
                 a
                 new
                 Religion
                 .
                 But
                 I
                 pray
                 let
                 me
                 hear
                 what
                 you
                 have
                 to
                 say
                 for
                 this
                 fact
                 of
                 yours
                 in
                 taking
                 away
                 the
                 Cup
                 ?
                 I
                 see
                 Scripture
                 is
                 against
                 you
                 ,
                 and
                 the
                 Antient
                 Church
                 ,
                 at
                 least
                 so
                 far
                 that
                 for
                 1400.
                 years
                 together
                 the
                 people
                 might
                 drink
                 of
                 the
                 Cup
                 ,
                 (
                 if
                 they
                 would
                 )
                 as
                 I
                 am
                 told
                 your
                 Becanus
                 confesseth
                 *
                 .
              
            
             
               
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 
                   You
                   are
                   greatly
                   mistaken
                   ,
                   we
                   have
                   Scripture
                   for
                   us
                   ,
                   we
                   have
                   examples
                   there
                   ,
                   of
                   receiving
                   the
                   Sacrament
                   in
                   one
                   kind
                   ,
                   Acts
                
                 2.
                 42.
                 
                 They
                 continued
                 in
                 the
                 Apostles
                 Doctrine
                 ,
                 and
                 breaking
                 of
                 Bread
                 ;
                 and
                 Acts
                 20.
                 17.
                 
                 They
                 came
                 together
                 to
                 break
                 Bread.
                 
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 It
                 is
                 usual
                 to
                 express
                 an
                 whole
                 Feast
                 by
                 this
                 one
                 thing
                 ,
                 
                   Christ
                   went
                   into
                   the
                   Pharisees
                   house
                   to
                   eat
                   bread
                   ,
                
                 Luk.
                 14.
                 2.
                 
                 I
                 suppose
                 ,
                 you
                 think
                 it
                 was
                 not
                 a
                 dry
                 feast
                 ;
                 
                 Ioseph's
                 Brethren
                 
                   sat
                   to
                   eat
                
                 ,
                 Gen.
                 37.
                 25.
                 so
                 Act.
                 27.
                 35.
                 
                 Paul
                 (
                 and
                 the
                 rest
                 )
                 
                   took
                   bread
                   and
                   eat
                   it
                
                 ,
                 yet
                 none
                 doubts
                 but
                 they
                 had
                 drink
                 with
                 it
                 .
                 Besides
                 ,
                 here
                 is
                 as
                 much
                 said
                 of
                 the
                 People
                 ,
                 as
                 of
                 the
                 Ministers
                 drinking
                 of
                 the
                 Cup
                 ,
                 that
                 is
                 ,
                 neither
                 is
                 here
                 mentioned
                 ;
                 and
                 if
                 the
                 silence
                 concerning
                 the
                 Cup
                 be
                 a
                 good
                 Argument
                 ,
                 it
                 proves
                 that
                 neither
                 did
                 partake
                 of
                 it
                 :
                 if
                 it
                 be
                 not
                 ,
                 then
                 both
                 might
                 partake
                 of
                 it
                 :
                 But
                 what
                 have
                 you
                 more
                 to
                 say
                 ?
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 You
                 need
                 not
                 be
                 troubled
                 so
                 much
                 at
                 the
                 loss
                 of
                 the
                 Cup
                 ,
                 since
                 the
                 blood
                 is
                 contained
                 in
                 the
                 Bread
                 ,
                 that
                 is
                 ,
                 in
                 the
                 Body
                 ,
                 by
                 concomitancy
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 This
                 is
                 in
                 effect
                 to
                 tell
                 Christ
                 the
                 Cup
                 was
                 a
                 superfluous
                 device
                 :
                 Besides
                 ,
                 we
                 are
                 commanded
                 to
                 drink
                 the
                 
                 Cup
                 :
                 If
                 I
                 should
                 dip
                 bread
                 in
                 drink
                 and
                 eat
                 it
                 ,
                 no
                 man
                 will
                 say
                 I
                 drink
                 the
                 bread
                 .
                 Again
                 ,
                 this
                 destroys
                 the
                 main
                 end
                 of
                 the
                 Sacrament
                 ,
                 which
                 is
                 to
                 shew
                 forth
                 Christs
                 death
                 ,
                 and
                 the
                 shedding
                 of
                 his
                 blood
                 ;
                 and
                 this
                 was
                 the
                 reason
                 why
                 Christ
                 appointed
                 the
                 Bread
                 and
                 Wine
                 apart
                 ,
                 as
                 the
                 fittest
                 means
                 to
                 bring
                 to
                 our
                 memories
                 ,
                 the
                 pouring
                 of
                 his
                 blood
                 out
                 of
                 his
                 body
                 for
                 us
                 ;
                 and
                 as
                 God
                 would
                 have
                 us
                 to
                 remember
                 the
                 thing
                 ,
                 so
                 he
                 commanded
                 us
                 to
                 use
                 this
                 sign
                 of
                 drinking
                 the
                 Cup.
                 
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 But
                 there
                 are
                 many
                 weighty
                 reasons
                 why
                 it
                 is
                 not
                 fit
                 you
                 should
                 partake
                 of
                 the
                 Cup.
                 
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 I
                 dare
                 not
                 forsake
                 plain
                 Scripture
                 for
                 any
                 subtil
                 pretences
                 of
                 Humane
                 Reason
                 ;
                 but
                 let
                 me
                 hear
                 them
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 1.
                 
                 In
                 some
                 Countries
                 Wine
                 is
                 not
                 to
                 be
                 had
                 .
                 2.
                 
                 Some
                 there
                 are
                 who
                 have
                 an
                 antipathy
                 against
                 Wine
                 ,
                 and
                 cannot
                 drink
                 any
                 .
                 3.
                 
                 There
                 is
                 great
                 danger
                 of
                 spilling
                 the
                 Wine
                 ,
                 which
                 is
                 the
                 Blood
                 of
                 Christ.
                 
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 Are
                 these
                 your
                 weighty
                 Reasons
                 ;
                 I
                 see
                 the
                 Reason
                 and
                 Religion
                 of
                 Rome
                 are
                 both
                 of
                 a
                 Complexion
                 .
                 But
                 I
                 pray
                 you
                 how
                 came
                 it
                 to
                 pass
                 ,
                 that
                 Christ
                 and
                 his
                 Apostles
                 ,
                 and
                 all
                 the
                 Primitive
                 Christians
                 for
                 so
                 many
                 hundreds
                 
                 of
                 years
                 should
                 prescribe
                 and
                 use
                 the
                 Cup
                 ,
                 notwithstanding
                 those
                 reasons
                 ?
                 surely
                 if
                 these
                 reasons
                 are
                 strong
                 now
                 ,
                 they
                 were
                 so
                 1660.
                 years
                 ago
                 :
                 Wine
                 was
                 as
                 scarce
                 then
                 (
                 as
                 now
                 it
                 is
                 )
                 in
                 some
                 Countries
                 ;
                 abstemious
                 persons
                 were
                 then
                 as
                 well
                 as
                 now
                 ;
                 the
                 Wine
                 might
                 be
                 spilled
                 then
                 as
                 much
                 as
                 now
                 .
                 But
                 they
                 feared
                 none
                 of
                 these
                 things
                 ;
                 either
                 they
                 were
                 all
                 stupid
                 that
                 did
                 not
                 see
                 these
                 things
                 ,
                 or
                 your
                 Church
                 is
                 audacious
                 ,
                 that
                 dare
                 in
                 effect
                 teach
                 Christ
                 and
                 his
                 Apostles
                 ,
                 what
                 they
                 should
                 have
                 done
                 .
                 It
                 might
                 peradventure
                 be
                 added
                 ,
                 that
                 in
                 such
                 places
                 where
                 Wine
                 cannot
                 be
                 had
                 ,
                 or
                 for
                 some
                 persons
                 who
                 cannot
                 drink
                 Wine
                 ,
                 some
                 other
                 thing
                 proportionable
                 to
                 it
                 may
                 be
                 allowed
                 ;
                 but
                 if
                 it
                 might
                 not
                 ,
                 or
                 if
                 in
                 such
                 special
                 cases
                 they
                 were
                 confined
                 to
                 one
                 kind
                 ,
                 I
                 am
                 sure
                 it
                 is
                 a
                 ridiculous
                 consequence
                 ,
                 that
                 because
                 they
                 must
                 be
                 content
                 with
                 the
                 Bread
                 that
                 cannot
                 drink
                 of
                 the
                 Cup
                 ,
                 therefore
                 they
                 that
                 can
                 ,
                 shall
                 go
                 without
                 it
                 ;
                 and
                 because
                 it
                 may
                 be
                 omitted
                 where
                 it
                 cannot
                 be
                 had
                 ,
                 therefore
                 it
                 shall
                 be
                 omitted
                 where
                 it
                 may
                 be
                 enjoyed
                 .
                 And
                 for
                 the
                 danger
                 of
                 spilling
                 of
                 the
                 Wine
                 ,
                 there
                 is
                 also
                 danger
                 in
                 dropping
                 some
                 of
                 the
                 Bread
                 ,
                 and
                 so
                 that
                 should
                 be
                 denied
                 :
                 
                 By
                 this
                 Argument
                 also
                 the
                 Priest
                 should
                 not
                 meddle
                 with
                 the
                 Wine
                 ,
                 for
                 he
                 may
                 spill
                 it
                 ;
                 but
                 indeed
                 such
                 phantastical
                 Reasons
                 as
                 these
                 deserve
                 no
                 Answer
                 ;
                 they
                 make
                 me
                 almost
                 sick
                 to
                 hear
                 them
                 .
              
               
                 There
                 is
                 only
                 one
                 point
                 more
                 ,
                 I
                 would
                 be
                 informed
                 in
                 ,
                 what
                 you
                 can
                 pretend
                 for
                 it
                 ,
                 and
                 that
                 is
                 ,
                 That
                 your
                 Publick
                 Prayers
                 are
                 performed
                 in
                 a
                 Language
                 unknown
                 to
                 most
                 of
                 your
                 people
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 What
                 have
                 you
                 to
                 say
                 against
                 it
                 ?
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 What
                 can
                 be
                 said
                 more
                 plainly
                 and
                 fully
                 against
                 it
                 by
                 us
                 ,
                 than
                 what
                 S.
                 Paul
                 saith
                 ,
                 1
                 Cor.
                 14.
                 there
                 I
                 find
                 some
                 ,
                 who
                 having
                 the
                 Gift
                 of
                 speaking
                 with
                 divers
                 Languages
                 ,
                 did
                 use
                 it
                 without
                 interpreting
                 them
                 in
                 the
                 Publick
                 Assembly
                 ;
                 those
                 the
                 Apostle
                 informs
                 ,
                 that
                 there
                 is
                 a
                 better
                 gift
                 and
                 more
                 desirable
                 than
                 that
                 of
                 Tongues
                 ,
                 namely
                 Prophesie
                 ,
                 and
                 he
                 useth
                 divers
                 reasons
                 ,
                 which
                 are
                 so
                 many
                 undeniable
                 Arguments
                 against
                 your
                 Latine
                 Prayers
                 :
                 He
                 tells
                 them
                 it
                 is
                 their
                 duty
                 to
                 manage
                 Publick
                 Worship
                 ,
                 so
                 as
                 the
                 Church
                 may
                 be
                 edified
                 ,
                 verse
                 .
                 4
                 ,
                 5
                 ,
                 12.
                 
                 I
                 hope
                 you
                 will
                 not
                 deny
                 this
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 None
                 can
                 deny
                 that
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 Well
                 ;
                 then
                 he
                 tells
                 us
                 that
                 what
                 is
                 spoken
                 in
                 an
                 unknown
                 Language
                 doth
                 
                 not
                 edifie
                 the
                 Church
                 ,
                 vers
                 .
                 4
                 ,
                 11
                 ,
                 12
                 ,
                 14.
                 2.
                 
                 Yet
                 again
                 ,
                 the
                 Apostle
                 commands
                 that
                 if
                 any
                 do
                 speak
                 in
                 an
                 unknown
                 Tongue
                 it
                 must
                 be
                 interpreted
                 ,
                 vers
                 .
                 27.
                 you
                 disobey
                 this
                 command
                 .
                 3.
                 
                 He
                 argues
                 that
                 Publick
                 Prayers
                 are
                 so
                 to
                 be
                 made
                 by
                 the
                 Minister
                 that
                 the
                 People
                 may
                 say
                 
                   Amen
                   ,
                   v.
                
                 16.
                 
                 And
                 he
                 also
                 tells
                 us
                 that
                 no
                 man
                 can
                 say
                 Amen
                 to
                 that
                 which
                 he
                 doth
                 not
                 understand
                 ,
                 vers
                 .
                 15.
                 so
                 the
                 Apostle
                 stops
                 all
                 your
                 starting
                 holes
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 The
                 very
                 word
                 ▪
                 men
                 is
                 Hebrew
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 You
                 dispute
                 not
                 only
                 against
                 me
                 ,
                 but
                 against
                 the
                 Apostle
                 himself
                 ;
                 but
                 Amen
                 ,
                 though
                 an
                 Hebrew
                 word
                 ,
                 is
                 by
                 common
                 use
                 sufficiently
                 known
                 to
                 us
                 all
                 ,
                 to
                 express
                 our
                 consent
                 to
                 his
                 Prayers
                 ,
                 and
                 confidence
                 that
                 God
                 will
                 hear
                 them
                 .
                 4.
                 
                 Yet
                 again
                 ,
                 he
                 argues
                 that
                 strange
                 Tongues
                 are
                 designed
                 only
                 for
                 the
                 Conviction
                 of
                 Unbelievers
                 ,
                 not
                 to
                 be
                 used
                 be
                 Believers
                 amongst
                 themselves
                 ,
                 unless
                 interpreted
                 ,
                 v.
                 22.
                 
                 What
                 can
                 ,
                 or
                 dare
                 you
                 say
                 against
                 such
                 clear
                 places
                 ?
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 S.
                 Paul
                 speaks
                 not
                 of
                 the
                 ordinary
                 service
                 of
                 the
                 Church
                 ,
                 but
                 of
                 extraordinary
                 Hymnes
                 and
                 Songs
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 That
                 is
                 false
                 ;
                 he
                 speaks
                 of
                 the
                 ordinary
                 service
                 of
                 the
                 Church
                 ,
                 though
                 at
                 that
                 time
                 there
                 was
                 something
                 extraordinary
                 
                 in
                 it
                 ;
                 and
                 besides
                 ,
                 his
                 reasons
                 reach
                 to
                 all
                 times
                 and
                 services
                 ,
                 ordinary
                 or
                 extraordinary
                 ;
                 must
                 we
                 not
                 look
                 to
                 the
                 Edification
                 of
                 the
                 Church
                 in
                 the
                 one
                 as
                 well
                 as
                 the
                 other
                 ?
                 Must
                 not
                 the
                 people
                 say
                 Amen
                 in
                 one
                 as
                 well
                 as
                 the
                 other
                 ?
                 Let
                 me
                 hear
                 therefore
                 what
                 you
                 have
                 to
                 say
                 for
                 your selves
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 Preaching
                 ought
                 to
                 be
                 in
                 a
                 known
                 language
                 ;
                 for
                 the
                 end
                 of
                 that
                 is
                 the
                 peoples
                 Edification
                 ,
                 but
                 Prayers
                 are
                 made
                 to
                 God.
                 
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 Though
                 they
                 are
                 made
                 to
                 God
                 ,
                 yet
                 they
                 are
                 made
                 by
                 the
                 Church
                 ,
                 who
                 are
                 to
                 joyn
                 in
                 those
                 Prayers
                 ,
                 and
                 to
                 signifie
                 their
                 consent
                 by
                 saying
                 Amen
                 ,
                 which
                 requires
                 their
                 understanding
                 :
                 And
                 moreover
                 ,
                 that
                 Chapter
                 speaks
                 as
                 expresly
                 of
                 Praying
                 as
                 it
                 doth
                 of
                 Prophesying
                 in
                 the
                 Church
                 .
                 Surely
                 the
                 people
                 went
                 not
                 to
                 Church
                 to
                 sit
                 there
                 like
                 senseless
                 Images
                 ,
                 but
                 to
                 offer
                 up
                 a
                 reasonable
                 service
                 ,
                 and
                 to
                 tender
                 their
                 Prayers
                 and
                 Praises
                 unto
                 God
                 by
                 the
                 mouth
                 of
                 the
                 Minister
                 ,
                 as
                 they
                 did
                 ,
                 
                   Act.
                   4.
                   24
                   ,
                   They
                   lift
                   up
                   their
                   voice
                   with
                   one
                   accord
                   .
                
                 And
                 if
                 we
                 pray
                 with
                 you
                 ,
                 we
                 must
                 understand
                 ;
                 else
                 we
                 cannot
                 pray
                 in
                 faith
                 (
                 as
                 it
                 is
                 our
                 duty
                 to
                 do
                 )
                 and
                 we
                 shall
                 fall
                 into
                 their
                 error
                 to
                 ask
                 we
                 know
                 not
                 what
                 .
              
            
             
               
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 You
                 need
                 not
                 concern
                 your self
                 about
                 that
                 ;
                 you
                 may
                 rely
                 upon
                 the
                 wisdom
                 and
                 fidelity
                 of
                 the
                 Church
                 ,
                 who
                 takes
                 care
                 that
                 your
                 prayers
                 be
                 right
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 I
                 confess
                 there
                 is
                 this
                 great
                 encouragement
                 for
                 it
                 ,
                 that
                 your
                 Church
                 ,
                 it
                 seems
                 ,
                 is
                 wiser
                 than
                 St.
                 Paul
                 :
                 but
                 as
                 a
                 friend
                 I
                 advise
                 you
                 to
                 give
                 this
                 Counsel
                 of
                 relying
                 upon
                 your
                 Church
                 to
                 the
                 Indians
                 ,
                 or
                 some
                 remote
                 places
                 ,
                 for
                 they
                 that
                 know
                 her
                 will
                 never
                 trust
                 her
                 .
                 For
                 my
                 part
                 ,
                 my
                 Saviours
                 words
                 make
                 me
                 cautious
                 ,
                 
                   If
                   the
                   blind
                   lead
                   the
                   blind
                   ,
                   both
                   shall
                   fall
                   into
                   the
                   ditch
                   .
                
                 If
                 I
                 had
                 no
                 other
                 argument
                 of
                 your
                 Churches
                 Fallibility
                 and
                 Apostacy
                 ;
                 this
                 one
                 point
                 were
                 a
                 sufficient
                 evidence
                 of
                 them
                 both
                 .
                 But
                 what
                 have
                 you
                 more
                 to
                 say
                 ?
              
            
             
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 I
                 will
                 give
                 you
                 then
                 a
                 Scripture
                 instance
                 ;
                 The
                 Priests
                 prayed
                 in
                 the
                 Temple
                 when
                 the
                 People
                 waited
                 without
                 ,
                 Luke
                 1.
                 21.
                 
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 What
                 is
                 this
                 to
                 the
                 purpose
                 ?
                 I
                 do
                 not
                 read
                 ,
                 that
                 the
                 Priest
                 prayed
                 at
                 all
                 ,
                 but
                 only
                 went
                 in
                 to
                 offer
                 Incense
                 ;
                 but
                 if
                 he
                 did
                 pray
                 ,
                 he
                 did
                 it
                 alone
                 ,
                 not
                 with
                 and
                 before
                 the
                 people
                 ,
                 as
                 your
                 prayers
                 are
                 ;
                 you
                 might
                 as
                 well
                 plead
                 thu
                 ;
                 Those
                 Priests
                 said
                 nothing
                 at
                 all
                 ,
                 and
                 therefore
                 your
                 Priests
                 need
                 only
                 make
                 a
                 dumb
                 shew
                 ,
                 and
                 
                 may
                 serve
                 their
                 Latin
                 (
                 as
                 well
                 as
                 their
                 English
                 )
                 which
                 may
                 be
                 good
                 counsel
                 for
                 many
                 of
                 them
                 ,
                 that
                 have
                 so
                 little
                 to
                 spare
                 .
              
               
                 But
                 seriously
                 can
                 you
                 ,
                 or
                 any
                 rational
                 man
                 think
                 ,
                 these
                 reasons
                 of
                 sufficient
                 weight
                 to
                 oppose
                 against
                 that
                 great
                 Scripture
                 rule
                 of
                 Edification
                 ,
                 and
                 the
                 express
                 words
                 and
                 plain
                 arguments
                 of
                 St.
                 Paul
                 ;
                 God
                 deliver
                 me
                 from
                 such
                 a
                 besotting
                 Religion
                 .
              
               
                 Besides
                 what
                 I
                 have
                 said
                 ,
                 I
                 shall
                 leave
                 this
                 with
                 you
                 at
                 parting
                 ,
                 that
                 you
                 do
                 not
                 only
                 oppose
                 Scripture
                 ,
                 but
                 also
                 that
                 Antient
                 Church
                 which
                 you
                 pretend
                 to
                 reverence
                 ,
                 and
                 to
                 follow
                 her
                 steps
                 ,
                 and
                 your
                 practice
                 is
                 contrary
                 to
                 the
                 Church
                 in
                 all
                 antient
                 times
                 .
              
               
                 The
                 Prayers
                 of
                 the
                 Iews
                 in
                 publick
                 ,
                 were
                 alwayes
                 made
                 in
                 the
                 Hebrew
                 tongue
                 ,
                 and
                 in
                 that
                 Tongue
                 God
                 gave
                 them
                 those
                 forms
                 of
                 Prayer
                 and
                 blessing
                 which
                 were
                 then
                 used
                 ,
                 Numb
                 .
                 6.
                 10.
                 
              
               
                 God
                 gave
                 the
                 gift
                 of
                 Languages
                 to
                 that
                 end
                 ,
                 that
                 the
                 Apostles
                 might
                 establish
                 the
                 Worship
                 of
                 God
                 in
                 every
                 Nation
                 in
                 their
                 own
                 Language
                 :
                 And
                 I
                 am
                 told
                 ,
                 that
                 Origen
                 reports
                 this
                 ,
                 to
                 be
                 the
                 practice
                 of
                 the
                 Church
                 in
                 this
                 time
                 (
                 as
                 well
                 as
                 his
                 own
                 Judgment
                 )
                 That
                 
                   every
                   one
                   did
                   pray
                   to
                   God
                   in
                   his
                   own
                   dialect
                   ,
                   Greeks
                   in
                   Greek
                   ,
                   and
                   Latines
                   
                   in
                   Latin
                   ,
                
                 &c.
                 
                 a
                 Besides
                 ,
                 I
                 am
                 told
                 ,
                 that
                 your
                 own
                 Authors
                 ,
                 
                   Lyra
                   ,
                   Aquinas
                
                 ,
                 and
                 Harding
                 ,
                 and
                 others
                 confess
                 ,
                 this
                 was
                 the
                 practice
                 of
                 the
                 antient
                 Church
                 ,
                 and
                 that
                 one
                 of
                 your
                 own
                 Councils
                 ,
                 that
                 of
                 Lateran
                 in
                 the
                 year
                 1215.
                 did
                 make
                 this
                 order
                 ,
                 that
                 
                   Whereas
                   in
                   many
                   places
                   there
                   were
                   mixed
                   people
                   of
                   divers
                   Languages
                   and
                   customs
                   ,
                   the
                   Bishops
                   should
                   take
                   care
                   to
                   provide
                   fit
                   men
                   ,
                   that
                   should
                   perform
                   divine
                   Service
                   amongst
                   them
                   ,
                   according
                   to
                   this
                   difference
                   of
                   Rites
                   and
                   Languages
                   .
                
                 b
                 Moreover
                 ,
                 that
                 your
                 great
                 Cardinal
                 Cajetan
                 confesseth
                 ,
                 that
                 
                   Prayers
                   ought
                   to
                   be
                   in
                   a
                   known
                   tongue
                   .
                
                 c
                 Are
                 these
                 things
                 so
                 ?
              
            
             
               
               
                 Pop.
                 
              
               
                 I
                 cannot
                 deny
                 it
                 .
                 Their
                 Books
                 are
                 extant
                 .
              
            
             
               
                 Prot.
                 
              
               
                 Then
                 by
                 this
                 ,
                 I
                 see
                 ,
                 how
                 far
                 your
                 Church
                 is
                 ,
                 not
                 only
                 from
                 Infallibility
                 ,
                 but
                 from
                 common
                 honesty
                 ,
                 that
                 dare
                 pretend
                 they
                 hold
                 nothing
                 But
                 what
                 hath
                 been
                 by
                 constant
                 Tradition
                 conveyed
                 to
                 them
                 from
                 the
                 Apostles
                 times
                 until
                 this
                 day
                 .
                 And
                 by
                 this
                 I
                 shall
                 judge
                 of
                 all
                 your
                 other
                 brags
                 of
                 Antiquity
                 in
                 your
                 Doctrine
                 .
                 So
                 I
                 see
                 you
                 are
                 obstinate
                 and
                 incorrigible
                 ,
                 and
                 therefore
                 I
                 shall
                 trouble
                 my self
                 no
                 further
                 to
                 talk
                 with
                 you
                 .
              
            
          
        
         
         
           FINIS
           .
        
      
    
     
       
         Notes, typically marginal, from the original text
         
           Notes for div A55374-e1050
           
             *
             Concil
             .
             Trident.
             
          
           
             †
             See
             my
             
               Nullity
               of
               Romish
               Faith
            
             ,
             Chap.
             2.
             
             Sect.
             4.
             
          
           
             *
             De
             Pontifice
             ,
             l.
             4.
             c.
             2.
             
          
           
             *
             
               Cressy
               in
               Exomolog
            
             .
             In
             the
             Appendix
             ,
             Chap.
             4.
             num
             .
             7.
             
             
               Holden
               de
               Resolutione
               fidei
               ,
               l.
               2.
               c.
            
             1.
             
          
           
             *
             Lib.
             5.
             
             Cap.
             1.
             
          
           
             *
             See
             Potter
             and
             Chillingworth
             .
          
           
             *
             De
             Pontific
             .
             
               l.
               4.
               c.
            
             2.
             
          
           
             *
             De
             Eccl
             siâ
             militante
             ,
             l.
             3.
             c.
             16.
             
          
           
             †
             Chron.
             l.
             4.
             
          
           
             *
             De
             Pontif.
             l.
             3.
             c.
             7.
             
             Denique
             quod
             ,
          
           
             *
             De
             verbo
             Dei.
             l.
             1.
             c.
             10.
             
             Itaque
             non
             dicimus
             .
          
           
             *
             See
             Nullity
             of
             Rom.
             faith
             .
             ch
             .
             2.
             
          
           
             †
             Hist.
             l.
             310.
             
          
           
             b
             Contra
             Appionem
             ,
             lib.
             1.
             
          
           
             c
             In
             Annot.
             adversus
             Cajet
             .
             de
             libris
             Maccab.
             
          
           
             d
             Enchir.
             c.
             de
             scrip
             .
             de
             num
             .
             lib.
             
          
           
             e
             In
             Scholiis
             ad
             Epist.
             116.
             
             Hieronymi
             .
          
           
             f
             De
             Verbo
             Dei
             ,
             l.
             1.
             c.
             10.
             
             In
             principio
             .
          
           
             g
             Loc.
             Theol.
             l.
             2.
             c.
             11.
             
          
           
             *
             Rainoldus
             in
             his
             Praelections
             concerning
             the
             Apocryphal
             Books
             ,
             proves
             this
             out
             of
             their
             own
             words
             ,
             see
             Praelect
             .
             40
             ,
             41
             ,
             42
             ,
             43.
             
          
           
             *
             See
             Rainoldus
             &
             Spanhem
             de
             libris
             Apocryphis
             ▪
             
          
           
             *
             De
             Tradit
             .
             cap.
             9.
             
          
           
             *
             Of
             which
             see
             Nulli●y
             ,
             Append.
             p.
             92.
             
          
           
             *
             Sixtus
             the
             Fifth
             ,
             
               Pope
               ,
               tells
               us
               in
               his
               Preface
               to
               his
               Translation
               of
               the
               Bible
               ,
               that
            
             He
             pickt
             out
             of
             the
             Cardinals
             ,
             and
             almost
             out
             of
             all
             Nations
             ,
             a
             Colledge
             of
             most
             learnned
             men
             ,
             who
             advised
             him
             in
             that
             work
             ;
             They
             (
             
               saith
               he
            
             )
             consulted
             ,
             and
             I
             chose
             that
             which
             was
             best
             .
             
               And
               he
               adds
               these
               remarkable
               words
               ,
            
             It
             is
             most
             evident
             ,
             that
             there
             is
             no
             surer
             ,
             nor
             stronger
             Argument
             ,
             than
             the
             comparing
             of
             ancient
             and
             approved
             Copies
             .
             
               And
               (
               he
               tells
               us
               )
               that
            
             he
             carefully
             corrected
             it
             with
             his
             own
             hands
             .
             
               And
               then
               the
               Pope
               imposeth
               this
               Translation
               upon
               all
               the
               world
               ,
            
             to
             be
             followed
             without
             adding
             or
             diminishing
             ,
             or
             altering
             ,
             under
             pain
             of
             Excommunication
             .
             
               And
               yet
               (
               that
               you
               may
               see
               how
               they
               abuse
               the
               peoples
               credulity
               to
               make
               them
               believe
               the
               Popes
               Infallibility
               which
               themselves
               do
               not
               in
               earnest
               believe
               .
               )
               About
               two
               years
               after
               comes
            
             Clement
             
               the
               Eighth
               ,
               and
               he
               puts
               forth
               another
               Edition
               and
               Translation
               of
               the
               Bible
               ,
               differing
               from
               ,
               and
               contrary
               to
               the
               former
               Edition
               in
               two
               thousand
               places
               ,
               as
               Doctor
            
             James
             
               hath
               proved
               ,
               by
               producing
               the
               places
               ,
               as
               they
               are
               in
            
             *
             
               both
               Editions
               .
               And
               which
               is
               more
               than
               all
               this
               ,
               in
               the
               Preface
               to
               his
               last
               Bible
               of
            
             Clement
             
               the
               Eighth
               ,
               we
               have
               these
               words
            
             ;
             Receive
             ,
             Christian
             Reader
             ,
             this
             old
             and
             vulgar
             Edition
             of
             the
             Scripture
             corrected
             with
             all
             possible
             diligence
             ,
             which
             ,
             though
             in
             respect
             of
             humane
             weakness
             it
             be
             hard
             to
             affirm
             ,
             that
             it
             is
             every
             way
             compleat
             ;
             yet
             it
             is
             not
             to
             be
             doubted
             ,
             but
             it
             is
             more
             pure
             and
             corrected
             than
             all
             that
             hath
             gone
             before
             it
             .
             
               I
               think
               this
               were
               sufficient
               evidence
               (
               if
               there
               were
               no
               other
               )
               how
               great
               a
               cheat
               it
               is
               ,
               that
               you
               pretend
               the
               Pope
               to
               be
               the
               infallible
               Interpreter
               of
               Scripture
               .
               For
               here
               we
               have
               one
               of
               those
               infallibles
               directly
               contradicting
               and
               overturning
               the
               other
               :
               and
               besides
               ,
               instead
               of
               that
               Divine
               ,
               (
               or
               ,
               after
               a
               sort
               divine
               )
               infallibility
               ,
               which
               you
               ascribe
               to
               the
               Pope
               ,
               we
               have
               here
               a
               publick
               acknowledgment
               of
               his
               imbecillity
               :
               nor
               dare
               he
               affirm
               his
               work
               to
               be
               perfect
               ,
               which
               it
               must
               needs
               have
               been
               ,
               if
               he
               had
               been
               infallibly
               guided
               in
               it
               (
               as
               you
               pretend
               he
               was
               )
               nor
               would
               he
               have
               said
               so
               ,
               if
               he
               had
               believed
               his
               own
               infallibiliy
               .
            
          
           
             *
             In
             his
             
               Bellum
               Papale
            
             ,
             and
             defence
             of
             it
             .
          
        
         
           Notes for div A55374-e12540
           
             a
             De
             expresso
             Dei
             Verbo
             .
          
           
             a
             Enchiridion
             ,
             cap.
             1.
             
          
           
             b
             De
             primatu
             Romanae
             Ecclesiae
             ,
             fol
             92.
             
          
           
             c
             Eccles.
             Hierarch
             .
             lib.
             2.
             cap.
             2.
             
          
           
             d
             Ibid.
             l.
             3.
             c.
             3.
             fol.
             103.
             
          
           
             *
             Contra
             haereses
             ,
             l.
             5.
             c.
             6.
             
          
           
             *
             In
             fine
             
               Concil
               .
               Trident.
               Reg.
            
             4.
             
          
           
             *
             De
             Sacris
             vernaculis
             .
          
           
             *
             Cap.
             cum
             ex
             injuncta
             .
             Extra
             de
             haeres
             .
          
           
             *
             
               Triplicatio
               contra
            
             Whitak
             ,
             c.
             17.
             
          
           
             *
             See
             Nullity
             .
          
           
             †
             De
             Pont.
             l.
             4.
             c.
             5.
             
          
           
             *
             
               Roffensis
               contra
               Oecolampadiam
            
             ,
             c.
             2.
             fol.
             3.
             
          
           
             *
             
               De
               indulgentiis
            
             ,
             cap.
             4.
             
               sub
               finem
            
             .
          
           
             *
             See
             
               Nullity
               ,
               Chap
            
             5.
             
          
           
             *
             Greg.
             de
             Valentiâ
             .
          
           
             a
             Diligenter
             nota
             quod
             eujusmodi
             gratia
             ▪
             non
             dantur
             .
             pauperibus
             ,
             
               quia
               non
               sunt
            
             ,
             ideo
             non
             possunt
             consolari
             .
             Taxa
             Cancellariae
             Apostolicae
             .
             
               Tit.
               De
               Matrimoniali
            
             .
          
           
             b
             Nam
             Indulgentiae
             fiunt
             ad
             relevandam
             indigentiam
             Ecclesiae
             ,
             quae
             non
             relevatur
             per
             solam
             voluntatem
             dandi
             ,
             sed
             per
             datum
             .
             
               De
               Potestate
               Papoe
               ,
               quest
               .
               30.
               art
               .
            
             3.
             
          
           
             c
             Quantum
             ad
             remissionem
             poenae
             quae
             acquiritur
             per
             indulgentiam
             ,
             in
             tali
             causa
             non
             est
             inconveniens
             quod
             dives
             ,
             sit
             melioris
             conditionis
             quâm
             pauper
             ▪
             Ibi
             enim
             non
             dicitur
             ,
             Venite
             &
             emite
             sine
             ,
             pecuniâ
             .
             Ibid.
             
          
           
             *
             
               Maulin
               ,
               Reinolds
            
             against
             Hart
             ,
             and
             others
             .
          
           
             *
             Ses.
             22.
             cap.
             9.
             
             Can.
             2
             ,
             3
             ,
          
           
             *
             De
             Missâ
             .
             l.
             6.
             1.
             12.
             
             Sextum
             .
          
           
             *
             In
             part
             .
             3.
             
             Tho●●e
             tom
             .
             3.
             q.
             83.
             dis
             .
             220.
             art
             .
             1.
             c.
             3.
             
          
           
             *
             Cornelius
             à
             Lapide
             in
             Heb.
             7.
             28.
             
          
           
             a
             Sacrificium
             verum
             &
             reale
             veram
             &
             realem
             occisionem
             exigit
             .
             
               Bell.
               de
               Missa
               ,
               l.
               1.
               c.
            
             27.
             
             Denique
             vel
             in
             Missa
             .
          
           
             b
             Ibid.
             
          
           
             a
             Sess.
             13.
             de
             Eucharist
             .
             cap.
             4.
             
          
           
             b
             Sess.
             13.
             cap.
             2.
             
          
           
             c
             Luke
             11.
             27
             ,
             28.
             
          
           
             a
             In
             Canone
             Missae
             .
          
           
             b
             Ep.
             7.
             ad
             Bohemos
             .
          
           
             c
             In
             Aquin
             par
             .
             3.
             qu.
             80.
             art
             .
             8.
             
          
           
             d
             Artic.
             Lovan
             .
             15.
             
          
           
             a
             In
             3.
             
             Thomae
             qu.
             75.
             art
             .
             1.
             
          
           
             b
             Contra
             Captiv
             .
             Babyl
             .
             cap.
             10.
             
          
           
             c
             In
             4.
             
             Sentent
             .
             qu.
             6.
             lit
             .
             f.
             
          
           
             d
             In
             4.
             
             Distinc.
             11.
             q
             4.
             art
             .
             14.
             
          
           
             e
             In
             4.
             q.
             6.
             
          
           
             f
             Loc.
             com
             .
             l
             3.
             c.
             3.
             
          
           
             g
             Tom.
             3.
             in
             3.
             dis
             .
             180.
             c.
             5.
             
          
           
             h
             Traitiè
             p.
             793.
             
          
           
             i
             De
             Euchar.
             l.
             3.
             c.
             23.
             
          
           
             a
             Artic.
             Lovan
             ,
             13.
             
          
           
             b
             Repet
             .
             3.
             c.
             3.
             
          
           
             c
             In
             Tom.
             3.
             dis
             .
             60.
             sect
             .
             2.
             
          
           
             d
             De
             Eucharistia
             ,
             l.
             1.
             c.
             11.
             
          
           
             *
             Bel.
             de
             Euch.
             
               l.
               1.
               c.
            
             11.
             
          
           
             a
             De
             Euch.
             
               l.
               1.
               c.
            
             11.
             
             Ad
             quartam
             dico
             .
          
           
             a
             De
             Eucharist
             ,
             
               l.
               3.
               c.
            
             19.
             
          
           
             b
             Bellarm.
             de
             Eucharist
             .
             
               l.
               3.
               c.
            
             19.
             
          
           
             *
             1
             Place
             de
             la
             messe
             .
          
           
             a
             A
             Popish
             Book
             ,
             called
             ,
             
               Scripture
               mistaken
            
             ,
             p.
             276.
             
          
           
             a
             Sum.
             qu.
             80.
             art
             .
             3.
             
          
           
             b
             Can.
             39.
             
             Glossa
             in
             Can.
             c.
             2.
             
             De
             Consecratione
             .
          
           
             a
             Bell.
             de
             Sacramentis
             in
             genere
             ,
             lib.
             1.
             c.
             9.
             &c.
             
             11.
             
          
           
             b
             De
             invocat
             .
          
           
             c
             sanct
             .
             lib.
             1.
             c.
             18.
             
          
           
             a
             Instit.
             1.
             
             Book
             .
          
           
             b
             Beatit
             .
             sanctorum
             .
             l.
             1.
             c.
             8
             sect
             .
             ult
             .
          
           
             a
             Quorum
             meritis
             precibusque
             rogamus
             .
          
           
             b
             De
             Indulgentiis
             ,
             l.
             1.
             c.
             4.
             
          
           
             c
             In
             Martiali
             ,
             Ann.
             1493.
             
          
           
             d
             In
             Canone
             Missae
             sect
             .
             80.
             
          
           
             e
             In
             1
             Tim.
             2.
             dis
             .
             8.
             p.
             467.
             
          
           
             f
             Concord
             .
             Evang.
             Tom.
             1.
             l.
             6.
             c.
             11.
             
          
           
             g
             In
             Amphitheatro
             honoris
             .
          
           
             *
             Against
             Perkins
             of
             Images
             .
          
           
             a
             De
             adoratione
             l.
             3.
             dis
             .
             3.
             c.
             2.
             p
             ,
             455
             ,
             &
             458
             ,
          
           
             a
             See
             Dallaeus
             de
             Imaginibus
             .
          
           
             b
             Lib.
             7.
             
             Contra
             Celsum
             .
             Arnobius
             lib.
             6.
             
             Lactant
             l.
             2.
             c.
             2.
             
             Eusebius
             de
             preparatione
             Evangelicâ
             ,
             lib.
             3.
             &
             lib.
             4.
             in
             Praefat.
             
          
           
             c
             Epiphanius
             Haeresi
             .
             97.
             per
             totum
             .
          
           
             a
             Lib.
             9.
             
             Instit.
             mor.
             c.
             6.
             art
             3.
             
          
           
             b
             In
             Thom.
             part
             .
             3.
             qu.
             25.
             art
             .
             3.
             
          
           
             c
             Tom.
             3.
             
             Disp.
             6.
             qu.
             11.
             punct
             .
             6.
             
          
           
             d
             Enchirid.
             p.
             438.
             
          
           
             e
             De
             Imag.
             l.
             2.
             c.
             21.
             prop.
             1.
             
          
           
             *
             Vasquez
             de
             adoratione
             .
          
           
             *
             Aquila
             ,
             Symmachus
             ,
             Theodotion
             ,
             Sic
             Iosephus
             
               〈◊〉
               〈◊〉
               〈◊〉
               〈◊〉
               〈◊〉
            
             Philo
             
               〈◊〉
               〈◊〉
               〈◊〉
               〈◊〉
               〈◊〉
            
             .
          
           
             a
             De
             Adorat
             .
             l.
             2.
             des
             .
             4.
             c.
             2.
             
          
           
             b
             In
             Rom.
             dis
             .
             29.
             sect
             .
             prima●
             
          
           
             *
             See
             Nullity
             .
             c.
             3.
             
          
           
             a
             Bel.
             de
             Purgat
             .
             l.
             1.
             c.
             ult
             .
          
           
             b
             In
             consut
             .
             Luther
             .
             art
             .
             18.
             
          
           
             c
             adv
             .
             hareses
             ●…
             12.
             tit
             .
             Purgat
             .
             f.
             258.
             
          
           
             *
             In
             locum
             .
          
           
             d
             Bell.
             de
             Purg.
             l.
             2.
             c.
             9.
             
             ●
             .
             Iam.
             vero
             .
          
           
             a
             In
             Purgatorio
             animae
             nec
             mereri
             nec
             peccare
             possunt
             ,
             
               Bel.
               de
               Purg.
               l.
               2.
               cap.
            
             2.
             
             Animae
             in
             Purgatorio
             certae
             sunt
             de
             suâ
             salute
             ,
             
               ibid.
               cap.
            
             4.
             
          
           
             a
             De
             Missâ
             p.
             156.
             
          
           
             a
             
               Concil
               .
               Trident.
               ses
               .
               14.
               de
               poenitentia
               cap.
            
             4.
             
          
           
             b
             Ibid.
             
          
           
             ast;
             Ibid.
             
          
           
             a
             
               In
               3.
               
               Thom.
               qu
               90.
               
               Art.
               1.
               sect
               .
               Omittimus
               .
            
          
           
             b
             
               In
               locum
            
             .
          
           
             c
             
               Relect
               de
               poenit
               .
               part
            
             6.
             
          
           
             ast;
             
               Scotus
               &
               omnes
               decretorum
               interpretes
               inquit
               Maldon
               in
               summâ
               qu.
               18.
               
               Art.
               4.
               
               Cajet
               .
               in
               Ioh.
               20.
               22.
               
               Bell.
               de
               poenit
               .
               l.
               1.
               c.
            
             4.
             
          
           
             a
             Luk
             :
             18.
             13.
             
             Mat.
             9.
             2.
             
             Act.
             2.
             38.
             
             &
             3.
             19
             ,
             &
             22.
             16.
             
          
           
             *
             De
             Poeniteutiâ
             
          
           
             a
             
               Act.
               9.
               4.
               2
               
               Cor.
               1.
               7.
               
               Heb.
            
             11.
             27.
             
          
           
             b
             
               Act.
               9.
               16.
               
               &
               14.
               22.
               2
               
               Tim.
            
             3
             12.
             
          
           
             c
             
               Tho.
               Est.
               Iustin
               in
               locum
            
             .
          
           
             a
             De
             Poenit.
             l.
             3.
             c.
             3.
             
          
           
             b
             Ia
             3.
             partem
             Thomae
             qu.
             84.
             art
             .
             3.
             
          
           
             b
             Ia
             3.
             partem
             Thomae
             qu.
             84.
             art
             .
             3.
             
          
           
             a
             Bell
             ,
             de
             Indulg
             .
             l.
             1.
             c.
             13.
             
          
           
             *
             Concil
             .
             Trident.
             de
             Poenitentia
             .
          
           
             a
             Cap.
             11.
             can
             .
             32.
             
          
           
             b
             De
             Iustificat
             .
             l.
             5.
             cap.
             16.
             
             &
             17.
             
          
           
             c
             De
             Iustif
             .
             l.
             5.
             c
             3.
             
          
           
             d
             In
             Explic
             ,
             Artic
             ,
             Lovan
             .
             Tom.
             2
             Art.
             9.
             
          
           
             c
             Ibid.
             art
             .
             8.
             
          
           
             d
             In
             1.
             secundae
             tom
             .
             2.
             dis
             .
             214.
             
          
           
             e
             De
             Iustif.
             l.
             5.
             c.
             17.
             
          
           
             f
             ubi
             supr
             .
          
           
             *
             Lib.
             5.
             cap.
             17.
             
          
           
             *
             De
             Iustif.
             lib.
             5.
             cap.
             19.
             
          
           
             a
             Bell.
             de
             Iustif.
             l.
             5.
             c.
             5.
             sect
             .
             quart
             .
          
           
             a
             Iob
             9.
             2.
             
          
           
             b
             Psal.
             130.
             2.
             
          
           
             c
             1
             Cor.
             4.
             4.
             
          
           
             d
             De
             Iustiff
             .
             l.
             1.
             c.
             19.
             
          
           
             *
             In
             manuali
             de
             communione
             sub
             utraque
             specie
             .
          
           
             a
             
               〈◊〉
               〈◊〉
               〈◊〉
               〈◊〉
               〈◊〉
            
             Orig.
             contrac
             elsum
             .
             lib.
             8.
             
          
           
             b
             Quoniam
             in
             plerisque
             partibus
             intra
             candem
             civitatem
             &
             dioecesin
             ,
             permixti
             sunt
             populi
             diversarum
             linguarum
             ,
             habentes
             sub
             una
             fide
             varios
             ritus
             &
             mores
             ,
             districtè
             praecipimus
             ,
             ut
             Pontifices
             hujusmodi
             civitatum
             provideant
             vires
             idoneos
             ,
             qui
             secundum
             diversitatem
             rituum
             &
             linguarum
             divina
             officia
             illis
             celebrent
             ,
             c.
             9.
             
          
           
             c
             Ex
             hac
             Pauli
             doctrinâ
             habetur
             ,
             quod
             melius
             ad
             aedificationem
             Ecclesiae
             est
             orationes
             publicas
             ,
             quae
             audiente
             populo
             dicuntur
             ,
             dici
             linguâ
             communi
             clericis
             &
             populo
             ,
             quàm
             dici
             Latinè
             .
             Cajet
             .
             in
             1
             Cor.
             14.