The svmme and svbstance of the conference which, it pleased his excellent Maiestie to haue with the lords, bishops, and other of his clergie, (at vvhich the most of the lordes of the councell were present) in his Maiesties priuy-chamber, at Hampton Court. Ianuary 14. 1603. / Contracted by VVilliam Barlovv, Doctor of Diuinity, and Deane of Chester. Whereunto are added, some copies, (scattered abroad,) vnsauory, and vntrue. Barlow, William, d. 1613. 1604 Approx. 120 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 59 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2003-09 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A04434 STC 1456.5 ESTC S100949 99836776 99836776 1062 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . 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Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Church of England -- History -- Early works to 1800. Hampton Court Conference (1604) -- Early works to 1800. Church and state -- Church of England -- Early works to 1800. Great Britain -- History -- James I, 1603-1625 -- Early works to 1800. 2003-03 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2003-04 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2003-06 Olivia Bottum Sampled and proofread 2003-06 Olivia Bottum Text and markup reviewed and edited 2003-08 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE SVMME AND SVBSTANCE OF THE CONference , which , it pleased his Excellent Maiestie to haue with the Lords , Bishops , and other of his Clergie , ( at vvhich the most of the Lordes of the Councell were present ) in his Maiesties Priuy-Chamber , at Hampton Court. Ianuary 14. 1603. Contracted by VVILLIAM BARLOVV , Doctor of Diuinity , and Deane of Chester . Whereunto are added , some Copies , ( scattered abroad , ) vnsauory , and vntrue . LONDON Printed by Iohn Windet , for Mathew Law , and are to be sold at his shop in Paules Churchyeard , neare S. Austens Gate . 1604 To the Reader . THis Copy of the Conferēce in Ianuary last , hath beene long expected ; and long since it was finished ; impeachments , of the diuulging , were many ; too , main , aboue the rest : one , his vntimely death , who first imposed it vpon me ; with whome is buried the famousest glory of our English Church , and the most kind incouragement to paines and study : A man happie in his life & death ; loued of the best , while he liued ; & hearde of God for his decease ; most earnestly desiring , not many dayes before hee was stroken , that he might not , yet , liue to see this Parliament , as neare as it vvas . The other , an expectation of this late Comitiall Conference , much threatned before , and triumphed in by many ; as if that Regall and most honourable preceding , shoulde thereby haue receiued his Counter-blast , for being too forward : But his Maiesties Constancy hauing , by the last , added comfort and strength to this former , which now , at length , comes abroad ; therein , good Reader , thou mayest both see those huge pretended Scandales ( for which our flourishing Church hath , beene so long disturbed ) obiected and remoued ; & withall , behold the expresse and viue image of a most learned and iudicious King : whose manifolde giftes of Grace and Nature , my skant measure of gift is not able to delineate , nor am I willing to enumerate , because , I haue euer accounted the personall commendations of Liuing Princes . in men of our sort , a Verball Symony , Such Flies there are too many , which puffe the skinne , but taint the flesh . His Maiesties humble deportment in those sublimities , will be the eternizing of his memory : the rather , because , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to digest so great Felicity , without surfet of surquedry is a vertue rare in great personages , & that , which the K. of Heauē feared , euen the King of his own choice would want . The more eminent he is , in all princely qualities , the happier shall we be : our duty , as we are Christians , is Prayer for him ; as wee are Subiectes , Obedience to him ; as we are men , acknowledgement of our setled state in him . Our vnthankfulnes may remoue him as it did , the mirrour of Princes , our late famous Elizabeth . Shee rests with God , the Phaenix of her ashes raignes ouer vs ; and long may he so doe to Gods glory , and the Churches good , which his excellent knowledge be wtifieth , and good gouernement adioyned will beatifie it . An hope of this last , we conceiue by his written 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : a Specimen of the other , in this Interlocutory Conference : whereof take this , which is printed , but as an Extract , wherein is the Substance of the whole ; intercourse of speeches , there occasioned , would cause prolixity without profit : what euery man said , point deuise , I neither could , nor cared to obserue ; the vigour of euery obiection , with the summe of each answer , I gesse , I misse not : For the first day , I had no helpe , beyond mine owne ; yet some of good place and vnderstanding , haue seene it , and not controled it , except for the breuity : for the two last , out of diuers copies , I haue selected and ordered what you here see : in them all , next vnto God , the Kinges Maiestie alone , must haue the glory : Yet , to say , that the present state of our Church , is very much obliged to the Reuerend Fathers , my Lordes of London and Winton , their paines & dexterity in this busines , were neither detraction from other , nor flattery of them . His Highnes purposed to compose all quarrels of this kind , hereby , and supposing he had setled all matters of the Church , it pleased him so to signifie by Proclamation after it was done : but there is a triple generation in the worlde , of whome the wiseman speaketh , marry , I say nothing , ( for , euen , priuate speeches cannot , now passe without the smeare of a Blacke Cole . In one ranke whereof , you may place our Hercules Limbo ▪ mastix , whome it might haue pleased , without his Gnathonical appeale , to haue rested his Maiesties determinatiō ; & being a Synopticall Theolog 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; and angry , that he was not , so , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , haue learned , the difference Diuinitie , betweene Viam Regis , & viam gregis . Many copies , of diuerse sorts haue been scattered , and sent abroad , some partiall , some vntrue , some slanderous ; what is here set downe , for the truth thereof , shall be iustified : the onelie wrong , therein , is to his excellent Maiestie , a syllable of whose admirable speeches , it was pitty to loose , his wordes as they were vttered by him , being as Salomon speaketh , Like Apples of gold , vvith pictures of siluer ; and therefore , I request thee good Reader , when thou commest to any of his Highnes speeches , to turne Martial his Apostrophe vpon me ; Tu malé iam recitas , incipit esse tuus , and I will take it kindly . If thou bee honest and courteous , thou wilt rest satisfied , and that is my content : to lay a pillow for a dog , sortes neither with my leysure , nor purpose . Farevvell . Thine in Christ Iesu , W. Barlow . THE FIRST DAYES Conference . THe day appointed was , as by his Maiesties Proclamation we all know , Thursday the 12. of Ianuary , on which there met at Hampton Court , by 9. of the Clocke , all the Bishops and Deanes , summoned by letters , namely , the Archbishop of Canterbury , the Bishops of London , Durham , Winchester , Worcester , S. Dauids , Chichester , Carlell and Peterborow : the Deanes of the Chappell , Christ-Church , Worcester , Westminster , Paules , Chester , Windsor ; with Doctor , Field , and Doctor King , Archdeacon of Nottingham : who , though the night before , they heard a rumor that it was deferred till the 14. day , yet according to the first summons , thought it their dutie to offer themselues to the Kinges presence , which they did : at which time it pleased his Highnes to signifie vnto the Bishops , that the day hauing preuented , or deceiued him , he would haue them returne on Saturday next following : On vvhich day , all the Deanes and Doctors , attending my Lordes the Bishops into the Presence-Chamber , there wee found fitting vpon a forme , D. Reynoldes , D. Sparkes ; M. Knewstubs , and M. Chaderton , Agentes for the Millene Plaintiffes . The Bishoppes entring the Priuy-Chamber , stayed there , till commaundement came from his Maiestie that none of any sort should bee present , but onely the Lordes of the Priuie-Councell , and the Bishoppes vvith fiue Deanes , viz. of the Chappell , Westminster , Powles , Westchester , Salisburie , who beeing called in , the doore was close shut by my Lord Chamberlaine . After a while , his excellent Maiestie came in , and hauing passed a fewe pleasant gratulatiōs with some of the Lords , he sate downe in his chaire , remoued forward from the cloth of State a prettie distance ; where , beginning with a most graue and princely declaration of his generall drift in calling this assembly , no nouell deuise , but according to the example of all Christian Princes , who , in the commencement of their raigne , vsually take the first course for the establishing of the Church , both for doctrine and policie , to which the verie Heathens themselues had relation in their prouerbe , A Ioue Principium , and particularly , in this land King Henry the eight , toward the ende of his raigne ; after him King Edward the 6 who altered more , after him Queene Marie , who reuersed all ; and the last Queene of famous memory , so his highnesse added ( for it is worth the noting , that his Maiestie neuer remembreth her , but with some honourable addition ) who setled it as now it standeth : wherein , hee sayd , that he vvas happier then they , in this , because they were faine to alter all thinges they found established , but he saw yet , no cause so much to alter , and chaunge any thing , as to confirme that which he found well setled already : which state , as it seemed , so affected his royal hart , that it pleased him both to enter into a gratulation to almightie God , ( at which wordes hee put off his hat ) for bringing him into the promised land , where Religion was purely professed ; where he sate among graue , learned and reuerend men ; not , as before , else where , a King without state , without honor , without order ; where beardlesse boyes would braue him to his face : and to assure vs , that he called not this assembly for any Innouation , acknowledging the gouernement Ecclesiasticall , as now it is , to haue beene approued by manifold blessings from God himselfe , both for the encrease of the Gospell , and vvith a most happie and glorious peace . Yet , because nothing could be so absolutely ordered , but something might bee added afterward thereunto , and in any state , as in the body of man , corruptions might insensibly grow , either through time or persons ; and , in that hee had receiued many complaintes since his first entrance into the kingdome , especially , through the dissentions in the Church , of many disorders , as he heard , and much disobedience to the lawes , with a great falling away to Popery : his purpose therefore was , like a good Physition , to examine & trie the complaintes , and fully to remoue the occasions thereof , if they proue scandalous , or to cure them , if they were daungerous , or , if but friuolous , yet to take knowledge of them , thereby to cast a sop into Cerberus his mouth , that hee may neuer barke againe : his meaning beeing , as hee pleased to professe , to giue factious spirites , no occasion , hereby , of boasting or glory ; for , which cause hee had called the Bishops in , seuerally by themselues , not to be confronted by the contrary opponents , that if any thing should be found meete to be redressed , it might be done ( which his Maiestie twise or thrise , as occasion serued , reiterated ) without any visible alteration . And this was the summe , so farre as my dull head could conceiue , and carry it , of his Maiesties generall speech . In particular , he signified vnto them the principall matters why hee called them alone , with vvhome hee vvould consult about some speciall pointes , wherein himselfe desired to bee satisfied ; these hee reduced to three heades : First , concerning the Booke of Common Prayer , and Diuine Seruice vsed in this Church . Second , Excommunication in the Ecclesiasticall Courtes ▪ Third , the Prouiding of fit and able Minister s for Ireland . In the booke he required satisfaction about three thinges . First , about Confirmation ; first , for the name , if arguing a confirming of Baptisme , as if this Sacrament without it , were of no validity , then were it blasphemous : Secondly , for the vse , first brought vpon this occasion ; Infants being baptized , and aunswering by their Patrini , it was necessarie they should bee examined , when they came to yeares of discretion , and after their profession made by themselues , to be confirmed with a blessing or prayer of the Bishop , laying his handes vpon their heades , abhorring the abuse in Popery , where it was made a sacrament and a corroboration to Baptisme . The second was for Absolution , vvhich how we vsed it in our Church hee knewe not , hee had heard it likened to the Popes pardons , but his Maiesties opinion was , that , there being onely two kindes thereof from God , the one generall , the other particular : for the first , all prayers and preaching do import an Absolution : for the second , it is to bee applied to speciall parties , who hauing committed a scandall , and repenting , are absolued : otherwise , where there precedes not either excommunication or pennance , there needs no absolution . The third was Priuate Baptisme : if priuate for place , his Maiestie thought it agreed with the vse of the primitiue church : if for persons , that any but a Lawfull Minister might baptize any where , he vtterly disliked : and in this point his Highnesse grew somewhat earnest against the baptizing by women and Laikes . The second head was Excommunication , wherein hee offered two thinges to bee considered of , first , the matter , second the person . In the matter , first , whether it were executed , ( as it is complained ) in light causes ; second , whether it were not vsed too often . In the Persons , first , why Lay men , as Chancelors & Commissaries should do it ? second , why the Bishops themselues , for the more dignitie to so high and waightie a censure , should not take vpon them , for their assistantes , the Deane and Chapter , or other ministers and Chaplaines of grauitie and account : and so likewise , in other Censures , and giuing of orders , &c. The last , for Ireland , his Maiestie referred , as you shall in the last daies conference heare , to a consulation . His Highnesse , ( to whome I offer great wrong , in beeing , as Phocion to Demosthenes , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the hatchet to cut short so admirable a speech ) hauing ended , the Lord Archbishop , after that , on his knee , he had signified hovve much this Whole land was bound to God for setting ouer vs a King so wise , learned and iudicious , addressed himselfe to enforme his Maiestie of all these pointes in their seuerall order . And first , as touching Confirmation , hee shewed at large , the antiquitie of it , as being vsed in the Catholike Church euer since the Apostles time , till that , of late some particular Churches had vnaduisedly reiected it . Then hee declared the lawfull vse of it , agreeable to his Maiesties former speech , affirming it to bee a meere calumniation , and a very vntrue suggestion , if any had informed his Highnesse , that the Church of England did holde or teach , that , without Confirmation , Baptisme was vnperfect , or that it did adde any thing to the vertue and strength thereof . And this hee made manifest by the Rubrikes in the Communion booke set before Confirmation , which were there read . My Lord of London succeeded , saying that the authoritie of Confirmation , did not depend , onely , vpon the Antiquitie and practise of the Primitiue Church , which out of Cyprian Ep. 73. and Hierom. aduersus Luciferian : hee shewed , but that it was an Institution Apostolicall , and one of the particular pointes of the Apostles Catechisme , set downe and named in expresse wordes , Hebr. 6. 2. and so did M. Caluin expound that very place , who wished earnestly the restitution thereof in those reformed Churches , where it had beene abolished . Vpon which place the Bishop of Carlell also insisted , and vrged it both grauely and learnedly . His Maiestie called for the Bible , read the place of the Hebrewes , and approued the exposition . Something also the Bishop of Durham noted , out of the Gospell of S. Mathew , for the imposition of handes vppon children . The conclusion was , for the fuller explanation , ( that wee make it not a Sacrament or a corroboration to a former Sacrament , ) that it should bee considered of by their Lordshippes , whether it might not , without alteration , whereof his Maiestie was still very wary ) bee intituled an Examination with a Confirmation . Next in order , was the point of Absolution , which the Lord Archbishop cleared from all abuse , or superstition , as it is vsed in our Church of England : reading vnto his Maiestie , both the Confession in the beginning of the Communion book , and the Absolution following it , wherein , ( saith he ) the Minister doth nothing else but pronounce an Absolution in generall . His Highnesse perused them both in the booke it selfe , liking and approuing them , finding it to be very true which my Lord Archbishop said : but the Bishop of London , stepping forward , added ; it becōmeth vs to deale plainely with your Maiestie : there is also , in the Communion booke , another more particular and personall forme of Absolution , prescribed to be vsed in the order for the Visitation of the sicke : this the King required to see , and whilest Maister Deane of the Chappell was turning to it , the sayd Bishop aledged , that not onely the confessions of Augustia , Boheme , Saxon , which he there cited , doe retaine and allow it , but that Maister Caluin did also approue such a generall kinde of Confession , and Absolution , as the Church of England vseth ; and withall did very well like of those which are priuate , for so hee termes them : The sayd particular Absolution in the Common prayer booke beeing read , his Maiestie exceedingly well approued it , adding , that it was Apostolicall , and a very godly ordinance , in that it was giuen , in the name of Christ , to one that desired it , and vpon the clearing of his conscience . The conclusion was , that it should be consulted of by the Bishops , whether vnto the Rubrike of the generall Absolution , these wordes , Remission of sinnes , might not be added for explanation sake . In the third place , the Lord Archbishop proceeded to speake of Priuate Baptisme , shewing his Maiestie , that the administration of Baptisme , by women , and Lay-persons , was not allowed in the practise of the Church , but enquired of , by Bishoppes , in their Visitations , and censured ; neither doe the wordes in the booke inferre any such meaning : whereunto the King excepted , vrging and pressing the wordes of the Booke , that they could not but intend a permission , and suffering of women , and priuate persons to baptize . Here the Bishoppe of Worcester said , that , indeed , the wordes were doubtfull , and might bee pressed to that meaning , but yet it seemed by the contrarie practise of our Church , ( censuring women in this case ) that the compilers of the Booke , did not so intend them , and yet propounded them ambiguously , because otherwise , perhaps , the Booke would not haue then passed in the Parliament , ( and for this coniecture , as I remember , he cited the testimony of my Lord Archbishoppe of Yorke : ) whereunto the Bishop of London replyed , that those learned and reuerend men , who framed the Booke of Common Prayer , entended not by ambiguous termes to deceiue any , but did , indeede , by those wordes entend a permission of priuate persons , to baptize in case of necessitie , whereof their letters were witnesses , some partes whereof hee then read , and withall declared that the same was agreeable to the practise of the auncient Church ; vrging to that purpose , both Actes 2. where 3000. were baptized in one day , which for the Apostles alone to doe , was impossible , at least improbable ; and , besides the Apostles , there were then no Bishoppes or Priestes : And also thee authoritie of Tertullian , and Saint Ambrose in the fourth to the Ephesians , plaine in that point ; laying also open the absurdities , and impieties of their opinion , who thinke there is no necessitie of Baptisme ; which word , Necessitie , he , so , pressed not , as if God , without Baptisme could not saue the child ; but the case put , that the state of the Infant , dying vnbaptized , being vncertaine , and to God only known ; but if it dye baptized , there is an euident assurance , that it is saued ; who is hee , that hauing any Religion in him , would not speedily , by any meanes , procure his Child to be baptized , and rather ground his action vpon Christs promise , then his omission thereof vppon Gods secret iudgement ? His Maiestie replied ; first to that place of the Actes , that it was an Acte extraordinary ; neither is it sound reasoning from thinges done before a Church bee setled and grounded , vnto those which are to be performed in a Church stablished and flourishing : That hee also maintained the necessitie of Baptisme , and alwayes thought that the place of Saint Iohn , Nisi quis renatus fuerit ex aqua &c. was ment of the Sacrament of Baptisme ; and that hee had so defenced it against some Ministers in Scotland ; and it may seeme strange to you , my Lords , saith his Maiestie , that I , who now think you in England giue too much to Baptism , did 14. moneths ago in Scotland , argue with my Diuines there , for ascribing too litle to that holy Sacrament . In somuch that a pert Minister asked me , if I thought Baptism so necessary , that if it were omitted , the child should be damned ? I answered him no : but if you , being called to baptize the child , though priuately , should refuse to come , I think you shall be damned . But this necessitie of Baptisme his Maiestie so expounded , that it was necessarie to be had where it might be lawfully had : id est , ministred by lawfull Ministers , by whom alone , & by no priuate person , hee thought it might not , in any case be administred : and yet vtterly disliked all rebaptization , although either women or Laikes had baptized . Heere the Bishop of VVinchester spake , very learnedly and earnestly , in that point , affirming that the denying of priuate persons in cases of necessitie , to baptize , were to crosse all antiquitie , seeing that it had bene the ancient and common practize of the Church , When Ministers at such times could not be got : and that it was also a rule agreed vpon among Diuines , that the Minister is not of the Essence of the Sacrament . His Maiestie answered , though hee be not of the Essence of the Sacrament , yet is he of the Essence of the right and lawfull ministrie of the Sacrament ; taking for his ground the commission of Christ to his Disciples , Mat. 28. 20. Go preach and baptize . The issue was a consultation whether into the Rubrike of Priuate Baptisme , which leaues it indifferently to all , Laikes , or Clergie , the wordes , Curate or lawfull Minister , might not bee inserted ? which was not so much stuck at by the Bishops . And so his Maiestie proceeded to the next point , about Excommunication , in causes of lesser moment : first , Whether the name might not be altered , and yet the same censure be retained or secōdly , whether in place of it , another Coercion equiualent thereunto , might not bee inuented and thought of . A thing very easily yeelded vnto of all sides , because it hath beene long and often desired , but could not be obtained from her Maiestie , who resolued to be still , Semper eadem , and to alter nothing which she had once setled . And thus the VVednesday succeeding , beeing appointed for the exhibiting of their determinations in these points : and the Munday next immediately following this present day , for the Opponents to bring in their Complaintes , wee were dismissed after three houres and more spent : which were soone gone , so admirably , both for vnderstanding , speech , and iudgment , did his Maiestie handle all those points , sending vs away not with cōtentment only , but astonishment ; and , which is pittifull , you will say , with shame to vs all , that a King brought vp among Puritans , not the learnedst men in the world , and schooled by them : swaying a kingdome full of busines , and troubles , naturally giuen to much exercise and repast , should , in points of Diuinity shew himselfe as expedite and perfect as the greatest Schollers , and most industrious Students , there present , might not outstrip him . But this one thing I may not omit , that his Maiestie should professe , howsoeuer he liued among Puritans , and was kept , for the most part , as a Ward vnder them , yet , since hee was of the age of his Sonne , 10. years old , he euer disliked their opinions ; as the Sauiour of the world said , Though he liued among them , he was not of them . Finis Primae diei . THE SECOND DAYES Conference . ON Munday , Ianuary , 16. betweene 11. and 12. of the Clocke , were the foure Plaintiffes called into the Priuie Chamber , ( the two Bishoppes , of London , and VVinchester being there before ) and after them , all the Deanes & Doctors present , which had bin summoned : Patr. Galloway , somtimes Minister of Perth in Scotland , admitted also to be there : The Kings maiestie entering the Chamber presētly tooke his Chaire , placed as the day before , ( the noble young Prince , sitting by vppon a stoole , ) where making a short , but a pitthy and sweet speech , to the same purpose which the first day hee made , vz. of the end of the Conference , mee●e to bee had , he said , by euerie King , at his first entrance to the Crowne ; not to innouate the gouernment presently established , which by long experience hee had found accompanied with so singular blessinges of God , 45 : yeares , as that no Church vpon the face of the earth more florished , then this of England . But first to settle an vniform order through the whole church . Secondly , to plant vnity for the suppressing of Papistes and enemies to Religion . Thirdly , to amend abuse , as naturall to bodies Politike , and to corrupt man as the shadow to the bodie : which once being entred , hold on as a wheele , his motiō once set going . And because many grieuous complaints had bene made to him , since his first entrance into the land , hee thought it best to send for some , whom his Maiestie vnderstoode to be the most graue , learned , and modest of the aggreeued sort , whome being there present , he was now readie to heare , at large , what they could obiect or say ; & so willed them to beginne : whereupon , they 4. kneeling downe , D. Reynalds the Foreman , after a short Preamble gratulatorie , and signifying his Maiesties Summons , by vertue whereof , they then and there appeared , reduced all matters disliked , or questioned , to these 4. heades . 1. That the Doctrine of the Church might be preserued in puritie , according to Gods word . 2. That good Pastors might be planted in all Churches , to preach the same . 3. That the Church gouernment , might be sincerely ministred according to Gods word . 4. That the Booke of Common Prayer , might be fitted to more increase of pietie . For the first , he moued his Maiestie , that the Booke of Articles of Religion , concluded , 1562. might bee explaned in places obscure ; and enlarged where some thinges were defectiue . For example , whereas Art. 16. the wordes are these : After we haue receiued the holy Ghost , we may depart from Grace : Notwithstanding , the meaning be sound , yet he desired that , because they may seeme to be cōtrary to the doctrine of Gods Predestination & election in the 17. Article , both those wordes might be explaned with this , or the like addition , yet neither totally , nor finally ; and also that the nine assertions Orthodoxall , as he termed them , concluded vpon at Lambeth , might be inserted into that Booke of Articles . Secondly , where it is said in the 23. Article , that it is not lawfull , for any man to take vpon him the office of Preaching or administring the Sacraments in the congregation , before hee bee lawfully called , D. Rey. tooke exception to these wordes , In the Congregation , as implying a lawfulnes for any man whosoeuer , out of the Congregation , to preach and administer the Sacraments , though he had no lawfull calling thereunto . Thirdly , in the 25. Article , these words touching Confirmation , growne partly of the corrupt following the Apostles , beeing opposite to those in the Collect of Confirmation in the Communion Booke , vpon whome after the exāple of the Apostles , argue , saith he , a contrarietie each to other ; the first , confessing Confirmation , to be a depraued imitation of the Apostles , the second , grounding it vpon their example , Act. 8. & 19. as if the Bishop in Confirming of Children , did , by imposing his handes , as the Apostles in those places , giue the visible graces of the holy ghost ; & therfore he desired that both the contradiction might be considered , and this ground of Confirmation examined . Thus farre Doctor Reyn. went on , without any interruption : but , here , as hee was proceeding , the Bishoppe of London , much moued to heare these men , who , some of them the Euening before , and the same morning , had made semblance , of ioyning with the Bishops , and that they sought for nothing but vnitie , now strike to ouerthrowe , ( if they could ) all at once ▪ cut him off , and kneeling downe ▪ most humbly desired his Maiestie first , That the aunciēt Canon might be remēbred , which saith that , Schismatici contra Episcopos , non sunt audiendi . Secondly , that if any of these parties were in the number of the 1000. Ministers , who had once subscribed to the Communion Booke , and yet had lately exhibited a Petition to his Maiestie , against it , they might be remoued and not heard , according to the Decree of a verie auncient Councell , prouiding , that no man should be admitted to speake against that , whereunto he bad formerly subscribed ▪ Thirdly , he put D. Reynoldes and his Associates in minde , how much they were bound to his Maiesties ▪ exceeding great clemencie , in that they were permitted contrary to the Statute , I. Elizab. to speake so freely against the Leiturgie & Discipline established . Lastly , forasmuch as that hee perceiued they tooke a course tending to the vtter ouerthrowe of the orders of the Church , thus long continued , hee desired to knowe the ende which they aimed at , alledging a place out of M. Cartwright , affirming , that we ought rather to conforme our selues in orders and Ceremonies to the fashion of the Turkes , then to the Papists , which Position hee doubted they approued , because , contrary to the orders of the Vniuersities , they appeared before his Maiestie , in Turky gownes , not in their Scholasticall habites , sorting to their degrees ▪ His Maiestie , obseruing my Lord of London , to speake in some passion , saide , that there was in it , something ▪ which hee might excuse , something that hee did mislike : excuse his passion hee might , thinking he had iust cause to bee so moued , both in respect that they did thus traduce the present well setled Church gouernement ; and also , did proceede in so indirect a course contrary to their owne pretence , and the intent of that meeting also ▪ yet hee misliked his sudden interruption of D. Reyn. whome he should haue suffered to haue taken his course and libertie , concluding that there is no order , nor can be any effectuall issue of disputation , if each partie might not bee suffered , without chopping , to speake at large what hee would : And therefore willed that either the Doctors should proceed , or that the Bishoppe would frame his aunswere to these motions alreadie made ; although , saith his Maiestie , some of them are verie needlesse . It was thought fitter to aunswere , least the number of obiections encreasing , the aunsweres would proue confused . Vpon the first motion , Concerning falling from Grace : The Bishop of London tooke occasion to signifie to his Maiestie , how very many in these dayes , neglecting holinesse of life , presumed too much of persisting in Grace , laying all their Religion vpon Predestination , If I shall bee saued , I shall be saued , which hee termed a desperate doctrine , shewing it to bee contrarie to good Diuinitie , and the true doctrine of Predestination , whereein we should reason rather ascendendo , then descendendo , thus ; I liue in obedience to God , in loue with my neighbour ; I follow my vocation , &c therefore I trust that God hath elected me , & predestinated mee to Saluation ; not thus , which is the vsuall course of argument . God hath Predestinated and chosen mee to life , therefore , though I sin , neuer so grieuously , yet I shall not be damned , for whome he once loueth , he loueth to the ende . VVhereupon hee shewed his Maiestie out of the next article , what was the doctrine of the Church of England touching Predestination , in the verie last Paragraph , scilicet : We must receiue Gods promises in such wise as they be generally set forth to vs in holy scripture ; and in our doings , that will of God is to be followed , which wee haue expressely declared vnto vs in the word of God : which parte of the said Article , his Maiestie verie well approued , and after hee had , after his maner , very singularly discoursed vpon that place of Paul , worke out your saluation with feare and trembling ; he left it to bee considered , whether any thing were meete to bee added , for the clearing of the Doctor his doubt , by putting in the worde often , or the like , as thus ; We may often depart from Grace , but , in the meane time , wished that the doctrine of Predestination might bee verie tenderly handled , and with great discretion , least on the one side , Gods omnipotency might be called in question , by impeaching the doctrine of his eternall predestination ; or on the other , a desperate presumption might be arreared , by inferring the necessary certaintie of standing and persisting in grace . To the second , it was aunswered , that it was a vaine obiection , because , by the doctrine and practise of the Church of England , none , but a licensed minister , might preach , nor either publikely or priuately administer the Eucharist , or the Lords Supper . And as for priuate Baptisme , his Maiestie answered , that hee had taken order , for that , with the Bishops already . In the third point ) which was about Confirmation ) was obserued either a curiosity or malice , because the Article which was there presently read in those wordes : These fiue commonly called Sacraments , that is to say ; Confirmation , Pennance , Orders , &c. are not to be accounted for Sacraments of the Gospell , being such as haue growne partly of the corrupt following the Apostles , &c. insinuateth , that the making of Confirmation , to be a Sacrament , is a corrupt imitation ; but the Communion Booke , aiming at the right vse , and proper sourse thereof , makes it to bee according to the Apostles example : which his Maiestie obseruing , and reading both the places , concluded the obiection to be a meere Cauil . And this was for the pretended contradiction . Now for the ground thereof ; the Bishoppe of London added , that it was not so much founded vpon the places in the Acts of the Apostles , which some of the Fathers had often shewed ; but vpon Heb 6. 2. where it is made , as the first day hee had saide , a parte of the Apostles Catechisme ; which was the opinion , besides the iudgement of the holy Fathers , of M. Caluin and D. Fulke , the one vpon Heb. 6. 2. as vpon Saturday he had declared ; the other vpon Act. 8. verse 27. where with saint Augustine , he saith , that we do not , in any wise , mislike that auncient Ceremonie ( of imposition of hands , for strengthening and confirming such as had beene baptized ) but vse it our selues , beeing nothing else but , as S. Austen affirmeth , Prayer ouer a man to bee strengthened and confirmed by the holy Ghost : or to receiue increase of the giftes of the holy Ghost , as S. Ambrose saith ; and a little after alludeth vnto Heb. 6. 2. &c. Neither neede there any great proofe of this ( saith my Lord. ) For Confirmation to be vnlawfull , it was not their opinion , vvho obiected this , as hee supposed ; this was it that vexed them , that they had not the vse thereof in their owne handes , euery Pastor in his Parish to confirme , for then it would bee accounted an Apostolicall institution ; and willed D. Reyn. to speake , herein , what he thought : who seemed to yeeld thereunto replying that some Diocesse of a Bishoppe , hauing therein 600. parish Churches , ( which number caused the Bishop of London to thinke himselfe personally touched , because in his Diocesse there are 609. or thereabouts ) it was a thing verie inconuenient to commit Confirmation vnto the Bishop alone , supposing it impossible that he could take due examination of them all , which came to be confirmed . To the fact , my Lord of London aunswered , for his Maiesties information , that the Bishops in their Visitations , giue out notice to them , who are desirous either to be themselues , or to haue their children , confirmed , of the place where they will bee ; and appoint either their Chapleines , or some other Ministers to examine them which are to bee cōfirmed , and lightly confirme none but either by the testimonie , or report of the Parsons or Curates where the children are bred , and brought vp . To the opinion he replied that none of all the Fathers euer admitted any to cōfirme but Bishops alone ; yea euen Saint Ierome himselfe though otherwise no friend to Bishops , by reason of a quarrell betweene the Bishoppe of Ierusalem and him , yet confesseth that the execution thereof vvas restrained to Bishops onely , ad honorem potius saaerdotii , quâm ad legis necessitatem . VVhereof , namely of this prerogatiue of Bishoppes , he giueth this reason , Ecclesiae salus in summi sacerdotis dignitate pendet ; cui si non exors quaedam , & ab omnibus eminens detur potestas , tot in Ecclesiis efficerentur schismata , quot sacerdotes . My Lord Bishop of Winchester challenged Doctor Reynolds , willing him , of his learning , to shewe where euer hee had read that confirmation was , at all , vsed in ancient times by any other but Bishoppes ; and added with all , that it was vsed partly to examine children , and after examination , by imposition of handes ( which was a ceremonie of blessing among the Iewes ) to blesse them & pray ouer them : and partly to try whether they had beene baptized in the right forme or no. For in former ages Baptisme was administred in diuerse sortes : some gaue it , in nomine patris & filii , &c. others in nomine patris maioris , et filii minoris as the Arrians did ; some in nomine patris per filium , in spiritu sancto ; others , not in the name of the Trinitie , but in the death of Christ , &c. VVhereuppon Catholike Bishoppes were constrained to examine them who were baptized in remotis , farre from them , hovve they were taught to beleeue concerning baptisme ? if it were right to confirme them ; if amisse to instruct them . His Maiestie concluded this pointe , first , by taxing Saint Ierome for his assertion that a Bishop was not diuinae ordinationis , ( the Bishop of London thereupon , inserting that vnlesse hee could proue his ordination lawfull out of the Scriptures hee would not be a Bishop 4. houres ) which opinion his Maiestie much distasted , approuing their calling & vse in the Church , and closed it vppe with this short Aphotisme , No Bishop , no King. Secondly , for Confirmation his Highnesse thought , that it sorted neither with the authoritie nor decencie of the same , that euerie ordinarie Pastor should doe it : and therefore sayd , that for his part , hee meant not to take that from the Bishops , which they had so long retained and enioyed ▪ seeing , as it pleased him to adde , as great reason , that none should confirme without the Bishops licēce , as none shold preach with out his licence : and so referring , as the day before , the word Examination , to be added to the Rubrike in the title of Confirmation in the Communion Booke , if it were thought good so to doe ; hee willed D. Reyn. to proceed . VVho , after that he had deprecated the imputation of Schisme , with a protestation , that he meant not to gall anie man ; goeth on to the 37. Article , wherein , hee sayd , these wordes , The Bishop of Rome hath no authoritie in this land , not to be sufficient , vnlesse it were added , nor ought to haue : whereat his Maiestie heartily laughed , and so did the Lordes : the King adding an aunswere , which the Rhetoricions call , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , what speake you of the Popes authoritie here ? habemus iure , quod habemus , and therefore , in as much as it is sayd , he hath not , it is plaine inough , that he ought not to haue . This , and some other motions seeming both to the King , and Lords very idle and friuolous , occasion was taken , in some by talke , to remember a certaine description , which M. Butler of Cambridge made of a Puritane , viz. A Puritane is a Protestant frayed out of his wits . But my Lord of London , there , seriously put his Maiestie in minde of the speeches , which the French Embossador Mosr Rogne gaue out concerning our Church of Englād , both at Canterbury after his arriuall ; & after , at the Court , vpon the view of our solemne seruice and ceremonies , namely , that if the reformed Churches in Fraunce had kept the same orders among them which we haue , hee was assured that there would haue bene many thousands of Protestants more there , then now there are : and yet our men stumble and straine at these petty quillets , thereby to disturbe and disgrace the whole Church . After this , the D. moued , that this proposition , the intention of the Minister is not of the essence of the Sacrament , might bee added vnto the booke of Articles , the rather , because that some in England had preached it to be essentiall . And here againe hee remembred the 9. Orthodoxall assertions concluded at Lambeth . His Maiestie vtterly disliked that first part of the motion , for two reasons : First , thinking it vnfit to thrust into the booke euerie position negatiue , which would bothe make the booke swell into a volume as bigge as the Bible , and also confound the Reader ; bringing for example the course of one M. Craig , in the like case , in Scotland , who with his Irenounce and abhorre , his detestations and abrenunciatiōs he did so amase the simple people , that they , not able to conceiue all those thinges , vtterly gaue ouer all , falling backe to Poperie , or remaining still in their former ignorance . Yea , if I , sayde his Maiestie , shoulde haue beene bound to his forme , the confession of my faith must haue bene in my table booke , not in my head . But because you speake of Intention , sayth his Highnesse , I vvill apply it thus , If you come hither with a good intention , to bee informed and satisfied where you shall find iust cause , the whole worke will sorte to the better effect ; but if your Intention bee to goe as you came ( whatsoeuer shall bee sayde ) it will proue that the Intention is verie materiall , and essentiall to the ende of this , present action . To the other parte for the nine Assertions , his Maiestie could not , suddenly , aunswere , because hee vnderstood not what the Doctor meant by those assertions or propositions at Lambeth ; but when it was enformed his Maiestie , that , by reason of some controuersies , arising in Cambridge , about certain pointes of Diuinitie ; my Lordes Grace assembled some Diuines , of speciall note , to set downe their opinions , vvhich they drevve into nine assertions , and so sent them to the Vniuersitie , for the appeafing of those quarrels ; then his Maiestie aunswered , first , that when such questions arise among Schollers , the quietest proceeding were , to determine them in the Vniuersities , and not to stuffe the booke with all conclusions Theologicall . Secondly , the better course would be to punish the broachers of false doctrine , as occasion should be offered ▪ for were the Articles neuer so manie and sound , vvho can preuent the contrary opinions of men till they be heard ? Vpon this the Deane of Powles , kneeling dovvne , humbly desired leaue to speake , signifying vnto his Maiestie that this matter somewhat more nearly concerned him , by reason of controuersie betweene him and some other in Cambridge , vpon a proposition which he had deliuered there . Namely , that whosoeuer ( though before iustified ) did commit any grieuous sin , as adultery , murther , treason , or the like , did become , ipso facto , subiect to Gods wrath , and guilty of damnation , or were in state of damnation ( quoad praesentem statum ) vntill they did repent ; adding hereunto , that those which were called and iustified according to the purpose of Gods election , hovvsoeuer they might , and did , sometime , fall into grieuous sins , and thereby into the present state of wrath and damnation ; yet did neuer fall either totally from all the graces of God to be vtterly destitute of all the partes and seede thereof , nor finally from iustification , but were in time renued , by Gods spirit , vnto a liuely faith , and repentance , and so iustified from those sinnes , and the wrath , curse , and guilt annexed thereunto , whereinto they were fallen , and wherein they lay so long as they were without true repentance for the same . Against which doctrine , hee saide , that some had opposed , teaching that all such persons as were once truely instified , though after they fel into neuer so grieuous sinnes , yet remained still iust , or in the state of iustification , before they actually repented of those sinnes ; yea and though they neuer repented of them , through forgetfulnesse or sudden death , yet they should bee iustified and saued without repentance . In vtter dislike of this Doctrine his Maiestie entred into a longer speech of predestination , and reprobation , then before , and of the necessary conioyning repentance and holinesse of life with true faith : concluding that it was hypocrisie , and not true iustifying fayth , which was seuered from them : for although predestination , and election dependeth not vpon any qualities , actiōs , or works of man , which be mutable ; but vpon God his eternall and immutable decree and purpose : yet such is the necessitie of repentance , after knowne sinnes committed , as that , without it there could not be either reconciliation with God , or remission of those sinnes . Next to this , Doctor Reynalds complained , that the Catechisme in the Common prayer booke , was too briefe , for which one by Maister Nowell , late Deane of Paules was added , and that too long for young nouices to learne by heart : requested therefore , that one vniforme Catechisme might bee made , which , and none other , might be generally receiued : it was asked of him , whether if , to the short Catechisme in the Communion Booke , something were added for the doctrine of the Sacraments it would not serue ? His Maiestie thought the Doctors request very reasonable : but yet so , that hee would haue a Catechisme in the fewest and plainest affirmatiue termes that may bee : taxing withall the number of ignorant Catechismes set out in Scotland , by euerie one that was the Sonne of a Good man : insomuch as , that which was Catechisme doctrine in one congregation , was in another scarsely accepted as sound and Orthodox ; wished , therefore , one to bee made and agreed vppon ; adding this excellent , gnomicall , and Canon-like Conclusion , that in the reforming of a Church , he wold haue two rules obserued , first , that old curious , deepe and intricate questions might be auoided in the fundamentall instruction of a people . Secondly , that there should not be any such departure from the Papistes in all thinges , as that , because we in some pointes agree with them , therefore wee should bee accounted to bee in errour . To the former , D. Reynoldes added the prophanation of the Sabboth day , and contempt of his Maiesties Proclamation made for the reforming of that abuse , of which hee earnestly desired a straighter course for reformation thereof , and to this he found a general and vnanimous assent . After that , he moued his Maiestie , that there might bee a newe translation of the Bible , because , those which were allowed in the raignes of Henrie the eight , and Edward the sixt , were corrupt and not aunswerable to the truth of the Originall . For example , first , Galathians , 4. 25. the Greeke worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , is not well translated , as nowe it is , Bordreth , neither expressing the force of the worde , nor the Apostles sense , nor the situation of the place . Secondly , Psalme , 105. 28. they were not obedient ; The Originall beeing , They were not disobedient . Thirdly , Psalme , 106. verse 30. Then stood vp Phinees and prayed , the Hebrew hath Executed iudgement . To which motion , there was , at the present , no gainsaying , the obiections beeing triuiall and old , and alreadie , in print , often aunswered ; onely , my Lord of London well added , that if euery mans humour should be followed , there would be no ende of translating . VVhereupon his Highnesse wished , that some especiall paines should be taken in that behalfe for one vniforme translation ( professing that hee could neuer , yet , see a Bible well translated in English ; but the worst of all , his Maiestie thought the Geneua to bee ) and this to bee done by the best learned in both the Vniuersities , after them to bee reuiewed by the Bishops , and the chiefe learned of the Church ; from them to bee presented to the Priuie-Councell ; and lastly to bee ratified by his Royall authoritie ; and so this whole Church to be bound vnto it , and none other : Marry , withall , hee gaue this caueat ( vpon a word cast out by my Lord of London ) that no marginall notes should be added , hauing found in them , which are annexed to the Geneua translation ( which he sawe in a Bible giuen him by an English Lady ) some notes very partiall , vntrue , seditious , and sauouring too much , of daungerous , and trayterous conceites : As for example , Exod. 1. 19. where the marginall note alloweth disobedience to Kings . And 2. Chron. 15. 16. the note taxeth Asa for deposing his mother , onely , and not killing her : And so concludeth this point , as all the rest with a graue and iudicious aduise . First , that errours in matters of faith might bee rectified and amended . Secondly , that matters indifferent might rather be interrupted , and a glosse added ; alleaging from Burtolus de regno , that as better a King with some weakenesse , then still a chaunge ; so rather a Church with some faultes , then an Innouation . And sure ly , sayth his Maiestie , if these bee the greatest matters you be grieued with , I neede not haue beene troubled with such importunities and complaintes , as haue beene made vnto me ; some other more priuate course might haue bene taken for your satisfaction , and withall looking vppon the Lords , he shooke his head , smiling . The last point ( noted by D. Reyn. ) in this first head , for doctrine , was , that , vnlawfull and seditious bookes , might bee suppressed , at least restrained , and imparted to a few : for by the libertie of publishing such bookes , so commonly , many young Schollers , and vnsetled mindes in both Vniuersities , and through the whole Realme were corrupted , and peruerted ; naming for one instance , that Booke intituled , De iure Magistratus in Subditos , published , of late , by Ficlerus a Papist , and applied against the Queenes Maiestie that last was , for the Pope : The Bishop of London supposing , as it seemed , himselfe to bee principally aymed at , aunswered , first , to the generall , that there vvas no such licentious divulging of those bookes , as he imagined or complained of : and that none , except it vvere such as D. Reyn. who were supposed , would confute them , had libertie , by authoritie , to buy them : Againe , such books , came into the Realme by many secret conueyances , so that there could not bee a perfect notice had of their importation : Secondly , to the particular instaunce of Ficlerus , hee saide , that the author De iure , &c. was a great Disciplinarian ; whereby it did appeare , what aduantage that sorte gaue vnto the Papistes , who mutatis personis , could apply their owne argumentes against Princes of the Religion : but for his owne parte , hee saide , hee detested both the Author and the Applyer alike . My Lord Cecill here taxing , also , the vnlimited libertie of the dispersing and diuulging these Popish and seditious Pamphletes , both in Powles Churchyeard , & the Vniuersities , instanced one lately set forth , & published ; namely , Speculū Tragicum , which both his M tie . & the L. Henry Howard , now Earle of Northampton , termed a daungerous booke , both for matter & intention : ) & the Lord Chauncellor , also diuiding all such bookes into Latine and English , concluded , that , these last , dispersed , did most harme : yet the Lord Secretarie affirmed , that my Lord of London , had done therein what might bee , for the suppressing of them ; and that he knewe no man else , had done any thing in that kinde but he . At length , it pleased his excellent Maiestie , to tell D. Reyn. that hee was a better Colledge man , then a Statesman ; for if his meaning were , to taxe the Bishop of London , for suffering those bookes , betwixt the Secular Priestes , and Iesuites lately published , so freely to passe abroad ; His Maiestie would haue him and his Associates to know , and willed them also to acquaint their adherents , and friendes abroad therewith , that the saide Bishoppe was much iniured and slaundered in that behalfe , who did nothing therein , but by warrant from the Lordes of the Councell , whereby , both a Schisme betwixt them was nourished , & also his Maiesties owne cause and Title handled : the Lord Cecill affirming thereunto , that therefore they were tolerated , because , in them , was the Title of Spaine confuted . The L. Treasurer added , that D. Reyn. might haue obserued another vse of those Bookes ; viz. that now by the testimony of the Priestes themselues , her late Maiestie , and the State were cleared of that imputation , of putting Papistes to death , for their consciences onely , and for their Religion , seeing , in those books , they themselues confesse , that they were executed for treason . D. Reyn. excused himselfe , expounding his cōplaint , not meant of such bookes , as had beene printed in England , but such as came from beyond the Seas , as Commentaries both in Philosophy and diuinitie . And these were the partes of the first head , concerning puritie of Doctrine . Touching Pastors Resident Learned . To the second generall point concerning the planting of Ministers learned , in euery Parish ; it pleased his Maiestie to aunswere , that hee had consulted with his Bishops about that , whome hee found willing and readie , to second him in it : inueighing , herein , against the negligence and carelesnesse which hee heard of many in this land ; but , as Subita euacuatio was periculosa , so subita mutatio . Therefore this matter was not for a present resolution , because to appoint to euery Parrish , a sufficient Minister , were impossible , the Vniuersities would not afford them ; Again , he had fouud alreadie , that hee had more learned men in this Realme , then hee had sufficient maintenance for ; so that maintenance must first bee prouided , and then the other to bee required : In the meane time , ignorant Ministers , if young , to be remoued , if there were no hope of their amendment ; if olde , their death must bee expected , that the next course may bee better supplyed : and so concluded this point , with a most religious and zealous protestation , of doing something dayly in this case , because Ierusalem could not be built vp in a day . The Bishoppe of Winchester made knowne to the King , that this insufficiency of the Cleargie , bee it as it is , comes not by the Bishops defaultes ; but partly , by Lay Patrones , who present very meane men to their Cures ; wherof , in himselfe , hee shewed an Instance , how that since his being Bishop of Winchester , very fewe Maisters of Artes were presented to good Benefices : partly , by the law of the land , which admitteth of very meane and tollerable sufficiēcy in any Clearks ; so that , if the Bishop should not admit them ; then presently , a Quare impedit is sent out against him . Here my Lord of London , kneeling , humbly desired his Maiestie ( because hee saw , as hee saide , it was a time of mouing Petitions ) that hee might haue leaue , to make two or three . First , that there might be amongst vs , a Praying Ministerie another while ; for whereas ; there are , in the Ministerie , many excellent duties to be performed , as the absoluing of the Penitent , Praying for , and blessing of the people , administring of the Sacraments , and the like ; it is come to that passe now , that some sort of men thought it the onely dutie required of a Minister , to spend the time in speaking out of a Pulpit ; sometimes , God wot , very vndiscreetly and vnlearnedly : and this , with so great iniury and preiudice , to the celebratiō of Diuine seruice , that some Ministers would be content to walk in the Churchyeard , till Sermon time , rather then to be present at publke Prayer . He confessed , that in a Church , new to be planted , preaching was most necessarie ; but among vs , now long established in the faith , he thought it not the onely necessary dutie to bee performed , and the other to be so profanely neglected and contemned . VVhich motion his Maiestie liked exceeding well , very acutely taxing the hypocrisie of our times , which placeth all Religion in the eare , through which , there is an easy passage : but Prayer , which expresseth the heartes affection , and is the true deuotion of the mindes as a matter putting vs to ouer-much trouble , ( wherin there concurre , if prayer be as it ought , an vnpartiall consideration of our owne estates , a due examination to whome we pray , an humble cōfession of our sinnes , with an harty sorrow for them , and repentance not seuered from faith ) is accounted and vsed as the least part of Religion . The second was ▪ that till such time as learned and sufficient men might bee planted in euery Congregation , that godly Homilies might be read , and the number of thē encreased , and that the Opponents would labour to bring them into credite againe , as formerly they brought them into contempt . Euery man ( saith hee ) that can pronounce well , cannot indite well . The Kinges Maiestie approued this motion , especially , where the liuing is not sufficient for maintenance of a learned Preacher ; as also in places , where plenty of Sermons are , as in the Citie and great Townes . In the Countrey villages where Preachers are not neare together , hee could wish preaching , but where there are a multitude of Sermons , there he would haue Homilies to bee read diuerse times : and therein hee asked the assent of the Plaintiffes , and they confesse it . A preaching Ministery , sayeth his Maiestie , was best , but where it might not bee had , godly prayers and exhortations did much good . That , that may be done , let it , and let the rest , that cannot , bee tollerated . Somewhat was here spoken by the Lord Chancelor , of liuinges , rather wanting learned men , then learned men liuinges . Many in the Vniuersities pining , Maisters , Batchelors , and vpwardes : wishing therefore , that some might haue single coates , before other had dublets ; & here his L. shewed the course , that hee had euer taken , in bestowing the Kinges Benefices . My Lord of London commending his Honourable care that way , withall excepted , that a dublet was necessary in cold weather ; the L. Chancelor replied , that he did it not for dislike of the libertie of our Church , in granting one man 2. benefices , but out of his owne priuate purpose and practise groūded vpō the foresaid reason . The last motion by my L. of London , was , that Pulpits might not be made Pasquilles , wherein euery humorous , or discontented fellow might traduce his superiours . Which the King very gratiously accepted , exceedingly reprouing that , as a lewde custome ; threatning , that if hee should but heare of such a one in a Pulpit , hee would make him an example : concluding with a sage admonition to the Opponents , that euery man shoulde solicite and drawe his friendes to make peace , and if anything were amisse in the Church officers , not to make the Pulpit the place of personall reproofe , but to let his Maiestie heare of it : yet by degrees . First , let Complaint be to the Ordinarie of the place ; from him to goe to the Archbishoppe ; from him , to the Lordes of his Maiesties Councell ; and from them , if in all these places no remedie is founde , to his owne selfe . Which Caueat his Maiestie put in , for that the Bishop of London had tolde him , that if hee left himselfe open to admit of all complaints , neither his Maiestie should euer bee quiet , nor his vnder Officers regarded : seeing , that now alreadie no fault can bee censured , but presently the Delinquent threatneth a complaint to the King : and for an instance , he added , how a Printer , whome hee had taken faulty , very lately answered him in that very kinde . D. Reyn. commeth now to Subscription , ( which concerneth the fourth generall heade , as hee first propounded it , namely , The Communion booke , ) taking occasion to leape into it here , as making the vrging of it to be a great impeachment to a learned Ministery ; & therefore intreated , it might not be exacted as heretofore , for which many good men were kept out , other remoued , & many disquieted . To subscribe according to the statutes of the Realme , namely , to the Articles of Religion , and the Kinges Supremacy , they were not vnwilling . The reason of their backwardnesse to subscribe otherwise was , first , the bookes Apocryphall ; which the Common Praier booke enioyned to bee reade in the Church albeit , there are , in some of those Chapters appointed , manifest errors , directly repugnāt to the scriptures ; the particular instance , which hee then inferred was , Eccles. 48. 10. where hee charged the author of that booke , to haue held the same opinion with the Iewes at this day ; namely , that Elias in person , was to come before Christ , and therefore as yet Christ , by that reason , not come in the flesh ; and so , consequently , it implyed a denial of the chief Article of our redemption : his reason , of thus charging the Authour , was , because that Ecclus. vsed the very wordes of Elias in person , which the Prophet Malachy , Chap. 4. doth apply to an Elias in resemblance , which both an angell , Luke 1. 17. and our Sauiour Christ Math. 11. did interprete to be Iohn Baptist. The answere was , as the obiection , twofold . First , generall , for Apocrypha bookes ; The Bishop of London shewing , first , for the antiquitie of them , that the most of the obiections made against those bookes , were the old Cauils of the Iewes , renewed by S. Hierome in his time , who was the first that gaue them the name of Apocrypha : which opinion , vpon Ruffinus his chalenge , hee , after a sort disclaimed ; the rather , because a generall offence was taken at his speeches in that kinde . First , for the continuāce of them in the Church , out of Kimidoncius and Chemnitius , two moderne writers . The Bishoppe of Winton remembred the distinction of Saint Ierome , Canonici sunt ad informandos mores , non ad confirmandam fidem , which distinction hee saide , must be held for the iustifying of sundry Councels . His Maiestie in the ende , saide hee would take an euen order betweene both , affirming , that hee woulde not wish all Canonicall bookes to be read in the Church , vnlesse there were one to interprete ; nor any Apocrypha at all , wherein there was any error ; but for the other , which were cleare , & correspondent to the scriptures , he would haue them read , for else , sayeth his Maiestie , why were they printed ? and therein shewed the vse of the Bookes of Machabees , very good to make vp the story of the persecution of the Iewes ; but , not to teach a man either to sacrifice for the dead , or to kill himselfe . And here his Highnesse arose from his chaire , & withdrew himself into his inner chamber a little space : in the meane time a great questioning was amōgst the Lords , about that place of Eccles. with which , as if it had beene their rest and vpshot , they beganne , afresh , at his Maiesties returne . Who ▪ seeing them so to vrge it , and stand vpon it , calling for a Bible , first , shewed the author of that booke , who hee was ; then the cause , why hee wrote that booke ; next analyzed the Chapter it selfe , shewing the precedentes and consequentes thereof ; lastly , so exactly and diuinelike , vnfolded the summe of that place , arguing , and demonstrating , that whatsoeuer Ben Sirach had saide , there , of Elias , Elias had in his owne person , while hee liued , performed and accomplished ; so that the Susurrus , at the first mention , was not so great , as the astonishment was now at the King his so sodaine and sound , and indeede , so admirable an interpretation ; concluding , first , with a serious checke to Doctor Reynaldes , that it was not good to impose vpon a man , that was dead , a sense neuer meant by him : secondly , with a pleasant Apostrophe to the Lordes ; What , trowe yee , makes these men so angry with Ecclesiasticus ? by my soule , I thinke hee was a Bishoppe , or else they would neuer vse him so . But for the generall , it was appointed by his Maiestie , that Doctor Reyn. should note those chapters in the Apocrypha bookes , where those offensiue places were , and should bring them vnto the Lord Archshop of Canterburie against VVednesday next ; and so he was willed to goe on . The next scruple against Subscription was , that olde Crambe bis posita , that in the Common Prayer booke , it is twise set downe , Iesus saide to his Disciples ; when as by the text originall it is plaine , that he spake to the Pharisies . To which it was aunswered , that for ought that coulde appeare by the places , hee might speake aswell to his Disciples , they beeing present , as to the Pharisees . But his Maiestie keeping an euen hand , willed that the worde Disciples shoulde bee omitted , and the wordes , Iesus said , to bee Printed in a different letter , that it might appeare , not to be a part of the text . The third obiection against Subscripti . on , were Interogatories in baptisme , propounded to Infantes : which , being a profound point , was put vpon M. Knewstubs to pursue : who , in a long and perplexed speech , saide something out of S. Austen , that baptizare was credere , but what it was his Maiestie plainely confessed , Ego non intelligo ; and asked the Lords what they thought hee meant ? it seemed that one present , conceiued him ; for hee standing at his backe , bid him vrge that punct , vrge that punct , that is , a good point : my Lord of VVinton , aiming at his meaning , shewed him the vse thereof out of S. Austen ; and added the Fathers reason for it , Qui peccauit in altero , credat in altero : which was seconded by his Maiestie ( whome it pleased , for the rest of the matters which followed , him selfe alone to answere ; and iustly , might hee appropriate it to himselfe , for none present were able , with quicker conceit to vnderstand , with a more singular dexteritie to refute , with a more iudicious resolution to determine , then his Maiestie ; herein being more admirable , that these points , wherein some thought him preiudiciall to the contrarie , all of vs supposed him to haue beene but a stranger to them , he could so intelligently apprehend and so readily argue about them , ) it was , I say , seconded by his Maiesty ; by reason , that the question should bee propounded to the party , whome it principally concerned ; secondly by example of himselfe , to whom interrogatories were propounded , when he was crowned in his infancie , king of Scotland . And here his Maiestie , ( as hereafter , at the end of euery obiection hee did ) asked them whether they had any more to say ? M. Knewstubs tooke exceptions to the Crosse in Baptisme , which were in number , two . First , the offence of Weake brethren , grounded vpon the words of Saint Paule , Rom. 14. and 1. Cor. 8. viz , the Consciences of the weake , not to bee offended : which places his excellent Maiestie aunswered most acutely , beginning with that generall rule of the Fathers ; Distingue tempora , & concordabunt Scripturae ; shewing heere the difference of those times and ours ; then a Church not fully planted , nor settled : but ours long stablished and flourishing : then Christians newely called from Paganisme , and not throughly grounded ; which is not the case of this Church , seeing that Heathenish doctrine , for manie yeares , hath beene hence abandoned . Secondly , with a question vnanswerable , asking them how long they woulde bee weake ? whether 45. yeares were not sufficient for them to growe strong ? 3. Who they were that pretended this weaknesse ; for wee , saith the King , require not now Subscription of Laikes & Idiots , but Preachers and Ministers , who are not still , I trow , to be fed with milke , but are enabled to feede others . 4. That is was to bee doubted , some of them were strong enough , if not headstrong ; and howsoeuer they in this case pretended weakenesse ; yet some , in whose behalfe they nowe spake , thought themselues able to teach him , and all the Bishops of the land . His obiection against the Crosse consisted of three Interrogatories . 1. Whether the Church had power to institute an externall significant signe ? to which was replyed , first , that hee did mistake the vse of the Crosse with vs , which was not vsed in Baptisme , any otherwise then onely , as a ceremonie . Secondly , by their owne example , who make imposition of handes in their ordination of Pastors , to be a signe significant . Thirdly , in prayer , saieth the Bishoppe of Winton , the kneeling on the grounde ; the lifting vp of our handes ; the knocking of our breastes are Ceremonics significant : the first , of our humilitie comming before the mightie God , the second , of our confidence and hope , the other , of our sorrow & detestation of our sins , and these are , and may lawfully bee vsed . Lastly , M. Deane of the Chappell , remembred the practise of the Iewes , who vnto the institution of the Passeouer , prescribed vnto them by Moses , had as the Rabbines witnesse added both signes and words , eating sowre hearbs , and drinking wine , with these words to both , Take , and eate these in remembrance , &c. Drinke this in remembrance , &c. Vpon which addition and tradition of theirs , our Sauiour instituted the Sacrament of his last Supper , in celebrating it with the same wordes , and after the same manner ; thereby approuing , that fact of theirs in particular ; and generally , that a Church may institute and retaine a signe significant : which satisfied his Maiestie exceeding well . And here the king desired , to haue himselfe made acquainted about the antiquitie of the vse of the Crosse. Which Doctor Reynaldes confessed , to haue beene euer since the Apostles times , but this was the difficulty , to proue it , of that auncient vse in Baptisme . For that , at their going abroad , or entering into the Church , or at their Prayers and benedictions , it was vsed by the Auncients , desired no greate proofe : but whether , in Baptisme , Antiquitie approued it , was the doubt cast in , by M. Deane of Sarum , whome his Maiestie singled out , with a speciall Encomion , that hee was a man well trauelled in the Auncients : which doubt was answered , obsignatis tabulis , by the Deane of Westminster , ( whome the Kings Maiestie , vpon my Lord of London his motion , willed to speake to that poynt ) out of Tertullian , Cyprian , Origen and others , that it was vsed in Immortali lauacro : which wordes being a little descanted , it fell from one , I thinke it was my Lord of VVinchester , obiter , to say , that , in Constantine his time , it was vsed in Baptisme . What , quoth the King , and is it now come to that passe , that wee shall appeach Constantine of Popery and superstition ; if then it were vsed , saith his Maiesty , I see no reason , but that still wee may continue it . M. Knewstubs his second question was , that put case , the Church had such power to adde significant signes , whether it might , there adde them , where Christ had already ordayned one ; which hee saide , was no lesse derogatorie to Christes institution , as he thought , then if any Potentate of this land , should presume to adde his seale , vnto the great seale of England . To which his Maiesty answered , that the case was not alike , for that no signe or thing was added to the Sacrament , which was fully and perfectly finished , before any mention of the Crosse is made ; for confirmation whereof , hee willed the place to be read . Lastly , if the Church had that power also , yet the greatest scruple to their Conscience was , how farre such an ordinance of the Church , was to binde them , without impeaching their Christian Libertie ? whereat , the King , as it seemed , was much moued , and tolde him , hee would not argue that point with him , but aunswere therein , as Kinges are wont to speake in Parliament , Le Roy J'auiserá : adding withall , that it smelled very rankly of Anabaptisme : comparing it vnto the vsage of a beardlesse boy , ( one M. Iohn Black ) who the last Conference his Maiestie had with the Ministers in Scotland , ( in December , 1602. ) tolde him , that hee woulde holde conformitie with his Maiesties ordinances , for matters of doctrine : but for matters of Ceremonie , they were to bee left in Christian Libertie , vnto euery man , as hee receiued more and more light from the illumination of Gods spirit ; euen till they goe mad , quoth the King , with their owne light : but I will none of that , I will haue one Doctrine and one discipline , one Religion in substance , and in ceremonie : and therefore I charge you , neuer speake more to that point , ( how farre you are bound to obey ? ) when the Church hath ordained it . And so asked them again , if they had anything else to say ? D. Reynaldes obiected the example of the Brasen Serpent , demolished & stampt to powder by Ezechias , because the people abused it to Idolatry : wishing , that , in like sort , the Crosse should bee abandoned , because , in the time of Popery , it had beene superstitiously abused . Whereunto the Kings Maiesty answered diuerse waies . First , quoth hee , though I bee sufficiently perswaded of the Crosse in Baptisme , and the commendable vse thereof in the Church so long : yet , if there were nothing else to moue mee , this verie argument were an inducement to mee , for the retaining of it , as it is now by order established : For , inasmuch , as it was abused , so you say , to superstition , in time of popery , it doth plainely imply , that is was well vsed before Popery . I will tell you , I haue liued among this sorte of men , ( speaking to the Lords , and Bishops , ) euer since I was tenne yeares olde , but I may say of my selfe , as Christ did of himselfe : Though I liued amongst them , yet since I had abilitye to iudge , I was neuer of them ; neither did any thing make mee more to condemne , and detest their courses , then that they did so peremptorily disallow of all thinges , which at all had beene vsed in Popery . For my part , I knowe not how to answere the obiection of the Papistes , when they charge vs with nouelties : but truely to tel them , that their abuses are newe , but the thinges , which they abused wee retaine in their primitiue vse , and forsake , onely , the nouell corruption . By this argument , wee might renounce the Trinity , and all that is holie , because it was abused in Poperie : ( and speaking to Doctor Reyn. merily ) they vsed to weare hose & shooes in Popery , therefore , you shall , now , go barefoote . Secondly , quoth his Maiestie , what resemblance is there , betweene the Brasen Serpent , a materiall visible thing , and the signe of the Crosse made in the ayre ? Thirdly , I am giuen to vnderstande by the Bishops , and I finde it true , that the Papistes themselues , did neuer ascribe any power or spirituall grace to the Signe of the Crosse in baptisme . Fourthly , you see , that the materiall Crosses , which in time of Popery were made , for men to fall downe before them , as they passed by them , to worship them ( as the Idolatrous Iewes did the Brasen Serpent ) are demolished , as you desire . The next thing , which was obiected , was , the wearing of the Surplis , a kinde of garment which the Priestes of Isis vsed to weare . Surely , saith his Maiestie , till of late , I did not thinke , that it had bene borrowed from the Heathen , because , it is commonly termed , aragge of Poperie , in scorne ; but were it so , yet neither did wee now border vpon Heathenish nations , neither are any of them conuersant with vs , or commorant among vs , who , thereby , might take occasion to bee strengthened , or confirmed in Paganisme ; for , then there were iust cause to suppresse the wearing of it : but seeing , it appeared , out of antiquitie , that in the celebration of diuine seruice , a different habite appertained to the ministerie , and principally , of white Linnen ; hee sawe no reason , but that in this Church , as it had beene for comelinesse and for order sake , it might be still continued . This being his constant & resolute opinion , that no Church ought further to separate it selfe , from the Church of Rome , either in Doctrine or Ceremony , then shee had departed from her selfe , when shee was in her florishing and best estate , and from Christ her Lord & head . And heere , againe , he asked , what more they had to say ? D. Reyn. tooke exceptions at those wordes , in the Common Prayer Booke , of Matrimonie , VVith my bodie I thee worship . His Maiestie looking vpon the place ; I was made beleeue , ( saith hee , ) that the Phrase , did import no lesse then Diuine worship , and adoration : but by examination I finde , that it is an vsuall English terme , as a Gentleman of Worshippe , &c. and the sense agreeable to Scriptures ; giuing honour to the wife , &c. But turning to Doctor Reyn. ( with smiling , saith his Maiestie , ) Many a man speakes of Robin Hood , who neuer shot in his bowe , if you had a good wife your selfe , you would thinke , all the honour and Worshippe you could doe her , were well bestowed . The Deane of Sarum , mentioned the Ring in marriage ; which Doctor Reyn , approued , and the King confessed , that hee was married withall ; and added , that hee thought , they woulde proue to bee scarse well maried , who are not maried with a Ring . He likewise spake , of the Churching of women , by the name of Purification : which being read out of the Booke , his Maiestie very well allowed it , and pleasantly saide , that women were loath enough of themselues , to come to Church , and therefore , he would haue this , or any other occasion , to drawe them thither . And this was the substance and summe of that third generall point . At which pause , it growing toward night , his Maiestie asked againe , if they had any more to say ? if they had , because it was late , they should haue another day ; but Doctor Reyn. told him , they had but one pointe more , which was the last generall heade : but it pleased his Maiestie , first , to aske what they could say to the Cornerd Cap ? they all approued it ; well then , saith his Maiestie , turning himselfe to the Bishops , you may now safely weare your Caps , but I shall tell you , if you should walke in one streete in Scotland , with such a Cap on your head , if I were not with you , you shoulde bee stoned to death with your Cap. In the fourth generall heade touching Discipline D. Reyn. first tooke exception , to the committing of Ecclesiasticall censures , vnto Lay-Chancelors ; his reason was , that , in the Statute made in King Henrie his time , for their authoritie that way , was abrogated in Queene Maries time , and not reuiued in the late Queenes daies : and abridged by Bishops themselues , 1571. ordering that the said LayChācelors should not excommunicate in matters of correction ; and Anno 1584. and 1589 ▪ not in matters of Instance , but to bee done only by them , who had power of the Keyes : His Maiestie answered , that hee had already conferred with his Bishoppes , about that point , and that such order should be taken therein , as was conuenient ; willing him in the meane time , to goe to some other matter , if hee had any . Then hee desireth , that according to certaine Prouincial Constitutions , they of the Clergy might haue meetinges once euery three weekes ; first in Rurall Deanries , and therein to haue Prophecying , according as the Reuerend Father , Archbishoppe Grindal , and other Bishops desired of her late Maiestie . 2. that such things , as could not be resolued vpon , there , might bee referred to the Archdeacons Uisitation : and so 3. from thence to the Episcopall Synode , where the Bishoppe with his Presbyteri , should determine all such pointes , as before could not be decided . At which speech , his Maiestie was somewhat stirred ; yet , which is admirable in him , without passion or shewe thereof : thinking , that they aymed at a Scottish Presbytery , which saith hee , as well agreeth with a Monarchy , as God , and the Diuell . Then Iack and Tom , and Will , and Dick , shall meete , and at their pleasures censure me , and my Councell , and all our proceedings : Then VVill shall stand vp , and say , it must bee thus ; then Dick shall reply , and say , nay , mary , but wee will haue it thus . And therefore , here I must once reiterate my former speech , Le Roy s'auisera : Stay , I pray you , for one seauen yeares , before you demaunde that of mee : and if then , you finde mee purseye and fat , and my winde pipes stuffed , I will perhaps hearken to you : for let that gouernment bee once vp , I am sure , I shall bee kept in breath ; then shall wee all of vs , haue worke enough , both our hands full . But Doctor Reyn. til you finde that I grow lazy , let that alone . And here , because D. Reyn. had twise before obtruded the Kings Supremacie , 1. In the Article , concerning the Pope ; 2. in the point of Subscription , his Maiestie at those times saide nothing : but now growing to an end , he saide , I shall speake of one matter more ; yet , somewhat out of order , but it skilleth not . Doctor Rein. quoth the K. you haue often spoken for my Supremacie , and it is well : but knowe you any here , or any elsewhere , who like of the present Gouernement Ecclesiasticall , that finde fault , or dislike my Supremacie ? D. Rein. saide no ; why then , saith his Maiestie , I will tell you a tale . After that the Religion restored by King Edwarde the sixt was soone ouerthrowne , by the succession of Queene Marie , here in England , wee in Scotland felt the effect of it . Whereupon Mas. Knoxe writes to the Queene Regent ( of whome without flattery , I may say , that she was a vertuous and moderate Lady ) telling her that she was Supreme head of the Church , and charged her , as shee would aunswere it before Gods Tribunall , to take care of Christ his Euangil , and of suppressing the Popish Prelates , who vvithstoode the same . But how long , trovv yee , did this continue ? euen so long , till by her authority , the popish Bishops were repressed ▪ hee , himselfe , and his adherents vvere brought in , and well setled , and by these meanes , made strong enough , to vndertake the matters of Reformation thēselues . Then , loe , they began to make small account of her Supremacy , nor vvould longer rest vpon her authoritie , but tooke the cause into their ovvne hand , & according to that more light , wherewith they were illuminated , made a further reformation of Religion . How they vsed that poore Lady my mother , is not vnknowne , and vvith griefe I may remember it : vvho , because , shee had not beene otherwise instructed , did desire , only a priuate Chappell , vvherein to serue God , after her manner , with some few selected persons ; but her Supremacy was not sufficient to obtaine it at their hands . And howe they dealt with me , in my Minoritie , you all know ; it was not done secretly , & , thogh I would , I cannot conceale it . I will apply it thus . And then putting his hand to his hat , his Maiestie saide ; my Lordes the Bishops , I may thanke you , that these men doe thus pleade for my Supremacie ; They thinke they cannot make their party good against you , but by appealing vnto it , as if you , or some that adhere vnto you , were not well affected towardes it . But if once you were out , and they in place , I knowe what would become of my Supremacie . No Bishop , no King , as before I sayd . Neither doe I thus speake , at randon , without ground , for I haue obserued since my comming into England , that some Preachers before me , can be content to pray for Iames , King of England , Scotland , Fraunce and Ireland , defendor of the faith , but as for Supreme Gouernour in all causes , and ouerall persons , ( as well Ecclesiasticall as Ciuill ) they passe that ouer with silence ; & what out they haue beene of , I after learned . After this asking them , if they had any more to obiect ; and D. Reyn. aunswering , Noe , his Maiestie appointed the next Wednesday for both parties to meete before him , and rising from his Chaire , as hee was going to his inner Chamber , If this bee all , quoth he , that they haue to say , I shall make thē conforme themselues , or I will harrie them out of the land , or else do worse . And this was the Summe of the second dayes Conference , which raised such an admiration in the Lordes , in respect of the King his singular readinesse , and exact knowledge ; that one of them sayde , hee was fully perswaded , his Maiestie spake by the instinct of the spirite of God. My L. Cecill acknowledged , that very much we are bound to God , who had giuen vs a King of an vnderstanding heart . My Lord Chancelor , passing out of the Priuy-Chamber , said vnto the Deane of Chester , standing by the dore ; I haue often hearde and read , that Rex est mixta persona cum sacerdote , but I neuer saw the truth thereof , till this day . Surely , whosoeuer heard his Maiesty , might iustly thinke ; that title did more properly fitte him , which Eunapius gaue to that famous Rhetoritian , in saying that he was , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; a Liuing Library , and a walking Study . Finis secundae diei . THE THIRD DAYES Conference . VPon Wednesday , Ianuary 18. all the Bishops afore named , attended at the Court , and the Deanes : who were all called into the Priuie Chamber , and who so else , my Lord Archbishop appointed , ( for such was his Maiesties pleasure ) whereuppon the Knightes and Doctors of the Arches , viz. Sir Daniel Dunne , Sir Thomas Crompton , Sir Richard Swale , Sir Iohn Bennet , and D. Drury entred . As soone as the King was set , the Lord Archbishoppe presented vnto him a note of those points , which his Maiesty had referred to their consideration , vpon the first day , and the alteration , or rather explanation ▪ of them , in our Liturgie . 1. Absolution or Remission of sinnes , in the Rubrike of Absolution . 2. In priuate Baptisme , the lawfull Minister present : 3. Examination , with Confirmation of Children . 4. Iesus sayd to them ; twise to bee put into the Dominicall Gospels : in stead of Iesus sayd to his Disciples . His Maiestie , here taking the Common Prayer Booke , and turning to Priuate Baptisme , willed , that where the wordes were ( in the Rubrike , the second Paragraph ) They Baptize not Children . Novv it should be thus read ; They cause not Children to be baptized ; and againe , in the same paragraph , for those vvords , Then they minister it , it should be , The Curate , or lawfull Minister present , shall doe it on this fashion . Concluding very grauely , that in this Conference , he aimed at three thinges principally , 1. The setting downe of wordes fit and conuenient , 2. Contriuing , howe thinges might be best done , without apparance of alteration . 3. Practise , that each man may doe his dutie in his place . After this , his Maiestie fell into discourse about the High Commission , wherin hee sayd , that hee vnderstood , howe the parties named therein , were too many & too meane ; that , the matters they dealt in , were base , and such as Ordinaries at home in their Courts , might censure ; that the braunches graunted out to the Bishops , in their seuerall Diocesses , were too frequent and large . To which my Lords Grace aunswered seuerally , 1. for the number , it was requisite , it should bee great , for otherwise , he must bee forced , as oft times now it fell out , to sit alone : because , that , albeit all the Lordes of the Priuy Councell were in , all the Bishoppes , many of the Iudges at law ; & some of the Clearkes of the Councell ; yet very few or none of thē , sitting with him at ordinary times , some of meaner place , as Deanes , and Doctors of Diuinity , and Law , must needes bee put in ; whose attendance his Grace , might with more authoritie commaund , and expect . 2. For the matters handled therein , he sayd , that he often times had complained thereof , but sawe that it could not bee remedied ; because , that the fault may be of that nature , as that the ordinary iurisdiction might censure it ▪ but eftsoones it fals out , that the party delinquent is too great , and so the Ordinary dare not proceed against him ; or so mightie in his state , or so wilfull in his contumacy , that hee will not obey the summons , or censure ; and so the Ordinary is forced to craue helpe , at the high Cōmission . To the third , his Grace saide , that it concerned not him to make aunswere thereunto , for such Commissions haue beene graunted , against his will oftentimes , and without his knowledge for the most part . My Lord Chancelor therefore offered it to his Maiesties wisedome to consider , if such Commissions should not be granted to any Bishop , but such as haue the largest Diocesses ; which his Maiesty well approued , & added withall , and those Bishops who haue in their Diocesses , the most troublesome and refractary persons , either Papistes or Puritanes : but of this , as also of the other things found fault with therein , hee willed those to consult , to whom should bee appointed the reuiew of the Commission . And here that point had ended , but that one of the Lordes , ( I thinke verily rather vppon misinformation , then set purpose , ) pleased to say , that the proceeding thereby , was like vnto the Spanish Inquisition , wherein , mē were vrged to subscribe more then law required ; that by the oath ex officio , they were inforced to accuse themselues ; that they were examined vppon 20. or 24. Articles , vpon the sodaine , without deliberation , and for the most part against themselues : for the euidence thereof , a letter was shewed of an ancient Honourable Councelor , written to the Lord Archbishop , Anno 1584. of two ministers in Cambridgeshire , then , or there aboutes , examined vpon many Articles , and in the end depriued . The Lord Archbishop aunswered , 1. to the matter , that , in the manner of proceeding , and examining , his Lordship was deceiued : for if any Article did touch the party any way , either for life , liberty , or scandall , he might refuse to aunswere , neither was hee vrged thereunto . 2. to the letter , being in a cause twenty yeares since determined , he could not aunswere the particulars , but if his aunswere to that letter were found out , he doubted not but as it did satisfie that Honourable Councelour , when hee liued , so it would also sufficiently cleare this complaint before his Maiestie . My Lord of London , for the matter of Subscription , shewed his Highnes the 3. Articles , which the Church-men of England are to approue by subscribing , namely , the Kinges Supremacy ; the Articles of Religion , and the Booke of Common Prayer . Al which , it pleased his Maiestie himself , to read , ( and after a little glaunce giuen , that the mention of the Oath ex officio , came in before his due time ) he dilated , 1. how necessary Subscription was , in euery well gouerned Church ; that it was to bee vrged , for the keeping of Peace : for as laws , to preuent killing , did prouide , there should bee no quareling ; so to preuent greater tumults in the Church , Subscription was requisite . 2. because , the Bishop is to aunswere for euery minister , whome he admitteth into his Diocesse , it were fittest for him , to know the affection of the party , before his admittance ; the best way to know him , and to preuēt future factions , was ; to vrge his Subscription at his first entrance : for , Turpius eiicitur , quā non admittitur hospes . 3 , as Subscription , was a good meanes to discerne the affection of persons , vvhether quiet or turbulent , withal , it was the principall way to auoid confusion : concluding , that if any , after things were well ordered , would not be quiet , and shew his obedience , the Church were better without him , hee were worthy to be hanged . Praestat vt pereat vnus , quam vnitas . Touching the Oath Ex officio , the L. Chancelor , and after him the L. Treasurer spake , both for the necessity and vse therof , in diuerse Courtes and cases . But his excellent Maiestie , preuenting that olde allegation , Nemo cogitur detegere suā turpitudinem , saide that the Ciuil proceedings , onely , punished factes ; but in Courts Ecclesiasticall , it vvas requisite that Fame , & Scandales should be looked vnto . That here was necessary , the Oath Compurgatorie , & the Oath , ex officio too ; & yet great moderation should be vsed , 1. in grauioribus criminibus : and 2. in such , whereof there is a publike fame : 3. in distinguishing of publike Fame , either caused by the inordinate demeanor of the offendor , or raised by the vndiscreet proceeding in triall of the fact : as namely , in Scotland , where the lying with a wench ( though done priuately ; and knowne , or scarse suspected by two or three persons before ) was made openly knowne to the King , to the Queene , to the Prince , to many hundreds in the Court , by bringing the parties to the stoole of Repentance , and yet , perhaps be , but a suspition , onely . And here his Maiestie so soundly described the Oath ex officio ; First , for the ground thereof : Secondly , the Wisedome of the Lawe therein ; Thirdly , the manner of proceeding thereby and the necessary and profitable effect thereof ; in such a compendious , but absolute order , that all the Lords and the rest of the present Auditors , stood amazed at it : the Archbishop of Canterbury said , that vndoubtedly his Maiestie spake by the speciall assistance of Gods spirite . The Bishop of London vpon his knee protested , that his heart melted within him , ( and so he doubted not , did the heartes of the whole Company ) with ioy , and made hast to acknowledge vnto almighty God , the singular mercy wee haue receiued at his handes , in giuing vs such a King , as since Christ his time , the like , he thought hath not beene ; whereunto the Lords , with one voice , did yeeld a verie affectionate acclamation . The Ciuilians present , confessed , that they could not in many houres warning , haue so iudiciously , plainely , and accurately , in such a briefe described it . After this , his Maiesty committed some weightie matters to be consulted of , by the Lords and Bishops , 1. for Excommunication , in causes of lesse moment ; the name or censure to bee altered . 2. for the High Commission , the qualitie of the persons to be named , and the nature of the causes to be handled therein , 3. for recusant Communicants ; for there are 3. sortes , saith his Maiestie , of the Papistes , some 1. which come to Sermons , but not to seruice and prayer , 2. some which come to both them , but not to the Communion , 3. a number which abstaine from all . That inquirie might bee made , of al those , who were of the first , second or third ranke , concluding therein , that the weake were to be informed , the wilfull to bee punished . Here my Lord Chancelor mentioned the writ , de Excōmunicato capiendo , which his Hon. saide , did most affright the Papists , of al other punishmēts , because , by reasō of that , they were many wayes disabled in law : therfore , he would take order , if his M tie so pleased , to sēd that writ out against them freely without charge ; and if they were not executed , his Lordship would lay the Undershiriffes in prison ; and to this the King assented . The 4. thing to be consulted of , was , for the sending and appointing of Preachers into Ireland , whereof , saieth his Maiestie , I am but halfe a King , being Lord ouer their bodies , but their soules seduced by Popery , he much pittied , affirming , that where there is no true Religion , there can be no continued obedience : nor for Ireland onely , but for some parts of Wales , and the Northerne borders , so once called , though now no borders : the men to bee sent , not to be factious , or scandalous , for weeds will be weedes , wheresoeuer they be , and are good for nothing , but to bee piked ouer the wall ; therefore they should single out men of sinceritie , of knowledge , of courage . The last was , for prouision of sufficient maintenance for the Clergy , and withall , for the planting of a learned and painfull minister in euery parish , as time shall serue . To euery of those , his Maiestie willed , that seuerall Cōmissioners of his Councell and bishops should be appointed , by the Lords , vpon the dissoluing the assembly present . And thus hauing conferred of these points with his Bishops , and referred othersome of them , as you heard to speciall Committies , his Maiestie willed , that D. Reyn and his associates , should bee called in to whom , he presently signified , what was done , and caused the alterations , or explications before named , to bee read vnto them . A little disputing there was , about the wordes in mariage , With my body I thee worship , & arguing no other thing to be ment , by the word Worship , then that , which S. Paule willeth , 1. Cor. 7. 4. the man thereby acknowledging , that , hereby he worshippeth his wife , in that he appropriateth his body vnto her alone : nor any more , then that which S. Peter councelleth , 1. Peter . 3. 7. That the man should giue Honour to his Wife , as to the weaker vessell : yet , for their satisfaction , shold be put in , With my body I thee worship , & honor , if it were thoght fit ; & so his M tie shut vp all with a most pithy exhortation to both sides for vnity perswading diligēce in each mans place , without violence on the one party , or disobedience on the other , and willed them to deale with their friendes abroad to that purpose : for his Maiestie feared , and had some experience , that many of them were ticklish and humorous ; nor that onely , but labourers to peruert others to their fancies ; hee now saw , that the exceptions against the Communion Booke , were matters of weakenes ; therfore , if the persons reluctant be discreet they will be wonne betimes , & by good perswasions ; if vndiscreete better they were remoued : for many , by their factious behauiour , were driuen to be Papists . Now then , of their fruites , he shall iudge them ; Obedience and Humilitie being markes of honest and good men . Those he expected of them , and by their example and perswasion of all their sorte abroade ; for , if hereafter , thinges being thus well ordered , they should be vnquiet , neither his Maiestie , nor the state had any cause to thinke well of them . To which , they all gaue their vnanimous assent , taking exception against nothing that was saide or done , but promised to performe all dutie to the Bishoppes , as their Reuerend fathers , and to ioyne with them against the common aduersaries , & for the quiet of the Church . Onely , M. Chatterton of Emanuel Colledge , kneeling , requested that the wearing of the Surplis , and the vse of the Crosse in Baptisme , might not be vrged vpō some honest , godly , and painefull ministers in some partes of Lancashire ; who feared , that if they should be forced vnto them , many , whome they had wonne to the Gospell , would slide backe , and reuolte vnto Popery againe , and particularly , instanced the Vicar of Ratesdale : ( hee coulde not haue light vppon a worse ; ) for not many years before , he was proued before my Lord Archbishop , as his Grace there testified , and my L. Chancelor , by his vnseemely and vnreuerent vsage of the Eucharist , dealing the bread out of a Basket , euery man putting in his hand , & taking out a peece , to haue made many loath the holy Communion , and wholy refuse to come to Church , his Maiesty aunswered , that it was not his purpose , and hee durst answere for the Bishops , that it was not their intent , presently , and out of hād to inforce those things , without fatherly admonitions , conferences , and perswasions premised ; but wished , that it should be examined if those men by their paines and preaching had conuerted any from Popery , and were , withall , men quiet of disposition , honest of life , and diligent in their calling ; if so , letters should be written to the Bishoppe of Chester , ( of whome his Maiestie gaue a very good testimony ) to that purpose : if not , but that they were of a turbulent and opposite spirite , both they and others of that vnquiet humor should presently be enforced to a conformity , and so , for that point , it was concluded , that my Lord Archbishop , should write to the Bishop of Chester , his letters for that matter . My Lord of London replyeth , that if this were graunted , the copy of these letters ( especially , if his Maiestie had writtē , as at first it was purposed ) would flye ouer al England , and then other , for their confines , would make the same request , and so no fruite should follow of this Conference , but thinges would bee worse then they were before . Therefore , he humbly desired his Maiesty , that a time shoulde bee limited , vvithin vvhich compasse , they should conforme themselues . To vvhich , his Maiestie , readily assented , & willed , that the Bishoppe of the Diocesse , should set them dovvne the time , and in meane while conferre vvith them , and if they vvould not yeeld , vvhatsoeuer they vvere , to remoue them , after their time expired . No sooner was that motion ended , but downe fals M. Knewstubs , and hee requestes the like fauour of forbearance , for some honest Ministers in Suffolke , telling the K. it vvould make much against their Credites in the Country , to be now forced to the Surplis , and the Crosse in Baptisme . My Lordes Grace was aunswering ; Nay , saith his Maiestie , let me alone with him . Sir , saith the King , you shew your selfe , an vncharitable man , wee haue here taken paines , and in the end haue concluded of an vnity and vniformitie , and , you forsooth , must preferre the Credites of a few priuate men , before the generall peace of the Church ; this is iust the Scottish argument , for when any thing was there concluded , which disliked some humors , the onely reason , why they would not obey , was , it stoode not with their credits , to yeeld , hauing so long beene of the cōtrary opinion ; I vvill none of that , saith the King , and therefore , eyther let them cōform thēselues , & that shortly , or they shall heare of it . My Lord Cecill put his Maiestie in mind , of a word , his Highnes had vsed the day before , namely , of Ambuling Communions , saying , that the indecency thereof , vvas very offensiue , & had driuen many from the Church : & here M. Chatterton vvas told of sitting Communions in Emanuel Colledge ; vvhich , hee saide , vvas so , by reason of the seates , so placed as they be ; yet , that they had some kneeling also . Finally , they ioyntly promised , to bee quiet and obedient , now they knew it to be the Kinges mind , to haue it so . His Maiesties gracious conclusion was so piercing , as that it fetched teares , from some , on both sides . My Lord of London ended all , in the name of the vvhole company , with a Thankesgiuing vnto God for his Maiestie , and a prayer for the health and prosperity of his Highnes , our gracious Queene , the yong Prince , and al their Royall Issue . His Maiestie departed into the inner Chamber , all the Lordes presently went to the Councell Chamber , to appoint Commissioners , for the seuerall matters before referred . FINIS . The Preface . MAny Copies were sent me , wherof some were so shamelesly vntrue , and I assure you , so obscaene , that I think his Maiestie would haue bene as much offended with me for Printing , as with the Authors for dispearsing them : I haue chosen three of the best , and cleanliest , which doe here ▪ vnder follow . I giue no censure , neither know I the Dispearsers , let the Reader conferre and iudge . Rectum est iudex sui , & obliqui . The first Copie . Ianuary 15. 1603. SIr , I cannot conceale from you , the good successe , which it hath pleased God to sende vs , by the Conference , which his Maiestie had with the Bishops at the court . There appeared none but the Bishops , which were with the King aboue three houres : Can. Lon. Wint. fell downe on their knees , and desired , that all things might remaine , least the Papists should thinke we haue bene in an error . The King replied , that in 42. yeares corruptions might creep in . He spake of cōfirmation , priuate Baptisme , the Crosse , dumbe Ministerie , non residence , the Courtes ; which he promised to amēd : especially he spake bitterly against priuate Baptisme ; saying hee had as liue an Ape , as a woman should Baptise his childe , and against Courtes , which hee saide he would put downe . The Lo. chiefe Iustice , and the Lo. Cecil , against Excommunications by Lay-men . Maister Deane of the Chappell , speaking something to the King in his eare , the Bishop of London , insolently said vnto him , Doctor Mountague speake out , that we may heare you , and seeke not to crosse vs. At their departure , they said , that if the King should vse the Ministers in such sort as they were vsed , they would be too insolent . The King said they were his subiectes , and if hee would not heare them , then they had iust cause to complaine . The Bishops brought foorth many Popish arguments , which the King very ernestly answered , and learnedly , more then tenne times calling them Popish arguments , and saide by those reasons , they might prooue Popery . The Bishop of Winchester saide , that if he tooke away priuate Baptisme , he ouerthrew all antiquitie . The Bishop of Peterbrough brought a foolish argument , with much disgrace to himselfe . The Bishops haue taken Wednesday to consider of the Kings speech . The Ministers came to the King on Munday at nine of the clocke . Honest men about the Court , are comforted . Conformitans hang down their heads , and the Bishops men curse the Puritanes . sic explicit . 1. dies . Another Copie . I Haue sent you the declaration of the Conference , which was in this manner : The firste day the Bishoppes mette before his Maiestie : Bishops of Canterburie , London , and Winchester , making earnest sute , that all things might stand as they did , least the Papists should take offence , who might say , we would perswade them to come to a Church hauing errors in it : and the Puritans will say , they haue bin persecuted long : The King answered , that the best state would gather corruptions , and that it was no argument for them , to say , they would not be cured of the pox , because they had had it 30. yeares : he concluded against absolution , confirmation , priuate Baptisme , the dumbe and scandulous Ministers : pluralities , the Courtes and the authoritie of Bishoppes by the high Commissisners , &c. The second day the Ministers were conuented before the King , who answered fearefully & modestly : the Bishop of Lon. behaued himselfe insolently , saying , these are Cartwrightes Schollers Scismatikes , breakers of your Maiesties lawes ; you may know thē by their Turkie gownes , and silke Turky Grogorum : The third day they met all : where the King spake much to vnitie , that they might ioyne against the Papists : All the three dayes the King behaued himselfe admirable to the beholders : graunting to the Ministers their earnest request , that the Ceremonies of the Crosse in Baptisme , and the Surplises , reuerent for antiquitie , should not be vrged vpon the consciences of the Ministers , so that they were peaceable mē , and that they should haue time to consider of them ; many hundreds being resolued rather to haue lost their places , then to haue yeelded to those superstitions , against which they had Preached . The last day , the Bishop of Cant. was intreated , to be a meanes that the ceremonies might not be pressed : but he answered they had bene vrged as necessary , and should be so still . But it pleased God to moue his Maiestie to a more peaceable course : the Bishop of Peter-borow came in with his argument about Baptisme , which the King made voide to his great reproach : The King saide many times that the Bishoppes reasons were popish , and that they might establish Poperie by them : it is thought that the King will be shortly in Huntingtonshire . The Lord Chancellor , the Lord Cecil , the Lord chiefe Iustice , and the Atturnie Generall , must set downe some course for the high Commission , and the Spirituall Courts . A third Copie . Some of the speeches that are bruited , vpon Maister Doctor Reynoldes returne to Oxen. concerning the late Conference before his Maiestie . 1 THat the Kinges Maiestie did gratifie Maister Doctor Reynoldes in euery thing which he proposed : or that Doctor Reynoldes obtained , and preuailed in euerie thing he did desire . 2 That if anie man reporte the contrarie , hee doth lye : or that they should giue him the lye , from Maister Doctor Reynoldes . 3 That these thinges now obtained by the reformers , were but the beginning of reformation : the greater matters were yet to come . 4 That my Lord of Winton stoode mute : and said little or nothing . 5 That my Lord of London called Doctor Reynoldes Schismatick indeede : ( he thankes him for it ) but otherwise said little to purpose . 6 That the Kings Maiestie vsed the Bishops with very hard words : but imbraced maister Doctor Reynolds , and vsed most kind speeches to him . 7 That my Lo. of Canterbury or my Lo. of London , falling on his knees , besought his Maiestie to take their cause into his owne handes , and to make some good end of it : such as might stand with their credite . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A04434-e110 Archiep. Can tuar . 2 Deanes of Ep. Londl . Christchur . VVinchest . VVindsor . Archdeac . Nottinghā . and mine owne . Prou. 30 , 1● . 13. 14 Pro. 25. 11 Notes for div A04434-e860 Iohn . 1. 5. Notes for div A04434-e2190 1 2 3 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 2 1 2 3 4 1 1 2 3 2 3 4 1. Cor. 14. Act. 21. Notes for div A04434-e10240 Other Copies haue the Bishop of Winchester .