The copies of two speeches in Parliament The one by Iohn Glanvill Esquire. The other by Sir Henry Martin Knight. At a generall committee of both houses, the 22. of May. 1628. Glanville, John, Sir, 1586-1661. 1628 Approx. 28 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 11 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-12 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A01768 STC 11904 ESTC S103133 99838890 99838890 3280 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A01768) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 3280) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1475-1640 ; 1067:09) The copies of two speeches in Parliament The one by Iohn Glanvill Esquire. The other by Sir Henry Martin Knight. At a generall committee of both houses, the 22. of May. 1628. Glanville, John, Sir, 1586-1661. Martin, Henry, Sir, 1562?-1641. aut England and Wales. Parliament. Proceedings. 1628-05-22. [2], 5, [1]; 13, [1] p. S.n., [London : 1628] Concerning the Petition of Right. Imprint from STC. "Sir Henry Martins speech" (caption title) has separate pagination and register; text commences "My Lords, the worke of this day ..". Variant: lacking this caption title. Certain parts of the text also show minor resetting. Reproduction of the original in the British Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. 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Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Great Britain -- History -- Charles I, 1625-1649. 2005-05 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2005-05 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-06 Mona Logarbo Sampled and proofread 2005-06 Mona Logarbo Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-10 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion The Copies of two Speeches in Parliament . The one by IOHN GLANVILL Esquire . The other by Sir HENRY MARTIN Knight . At a generall Committee of both Houses , the 22. of May. 1628. The Reasons of the Commons-House delivered by Mr. Glanvill , why they cannot admit of the Propositions tendered vnto them by the Lords . May it please your Lordships : I Am Commanded by the House of Commons to deliver vnto your Lordships their reasons why they cannot admit of the Proposition tendered vnto them by you , but for an introduction to the businesse ; please you to remember , that a Petition of right was shewed to your Lordships , wherein we desired you would joyne with vs ; a Petition my Lords fitting for these times , grounded vpon Law , and seeking no more then the Subiects just libertie . The Petition consisteth of foure parts : The first , touching Loanes , Aydes and Taxes ; The second , touching Imprisonment of mens persons ; The third , touching Billetting of Souldiers ; The fourth , touching Commissions issued for Martiall law and put in execution vpon severall persons ; groaning vnder the Burthen of these wee desire remedy , and wish your Lordships would joyne with vs , which you having taken into consideration , wee must confesse haue dealt nobly and freely with vs , not to conclude any thing till you heare our just Reasons , for which wee thanke your Lordships , and hope your Lordships will value those reasons which wee shall now offer vnto your Lordships . The worke of this day will make a happie issue , if your Lordships please to relinquish this , as wee formerly vpon Conference with your Lordships haue done some other things ; For the Proposition my Lords , wee haue debated it throughly in our House , and I am commaunded to deliver vnto you the Reasons , why we cannot insert this Clause , neither your Lordships nor wee desire to debate Libertie beyond the due bounds , nor to incroach vpon the Kings prerogatiue and lessen the bounds thereof . The first reason I am to lay downe , is touching Soveraigne power , which I beseech you not to accept as mine owne , being but a weake member of that strong body , but as the reasons of the whole House vpon great and graue Considerations . First my Lords , the words ( Soveraigne Power ) hath either reference or no reference to the Petition ; If no reference , then superfluous ; if a reference , dangerous , and operatiue vpon the petition : And wee thinke your Lordships purpose is not to offer vnto vs any thing that may bee vaine , or to the hinderance of any thing wherein you haue already joyned with vs. The Petition declareth the right of the Subiect , which yet may bee broken by the word , ( Soveraigne power , ) and so the vertue of the Petition taken away , the end of the petition is not to inlarge the bounds of Law but their Liberties , being infringed to reduce them to their auncient bounds , and shall wee by admitting of these words ( Soveraigne power , ) in stead of Curing the wound , launch it , and Cut it the deeper . The next point is the word , Trust ; a word of large latitude and deepe sence . Wee know that there is a trust in the Crowne and King , but regulated by Law , wee acknowledge in penall Statutes , the King may graunt another power to Dispence with the Law , But Magna Charta inflicting no penaltie leaveth no trust , but claimeth his owne right ; therefore the word , Trust , would confound this distinction . Our next reason is , Wee thinke it absolutely repugnant to any course of Parliament , to put Saving to the Petition : in former times the course of petitioning the King was this ; The Lords and the Speaker eyther by words or writing preferred their Petition to the King , this then was called the Bill of the Commons , which being receiued by the King , part hee receiued and part he put out , part hee ratified ; for as it came from him it was drawne into a Law , but this Course in the second of Hen. 5. was found preiudiciall to the Subiect , and since in such Cases haue petitioned by Petition of right as wee now doe , who come to declare what we Demaund of the King ; for if wee should tell him what we should not demaund , wee should then , not proceed in a Parliamentory course . Now for that , which is alledged by your Lordships , De articulis super cartis , That my Lords is not like this , That is saving vpon particulers , but this Petition consisting vpon particulers would bee destroyed by a generall saving , the saving de articulis super Cartis , are of three aids ; for ransomming the Kings person for Knighting the Kings eldest Sonne , and once for marrying the Kings eldest Daughter . These by the forme of the Petition shew , that they came not in , vpon the Kings answere but vpon the petition ; first then followed the savings , which ( vnder favour ) wee thinke are no reasons , to make vs accept of this saving , being not pertinent to the Petition . These 23. Stat. made 34. Ed. 1. were made to confirme Magna Carta : so that there is in all 30. Acts , to set Magna Carta in his purity , and if some subsequent Statute , haue laid some blemish vpon it , shall wee now then make the Subiect in worse case by laying more weight vpon it ( God forbid . ) In the next place , your Lordships reason thus , that this which you wish wee would admit of is no more , then what wee formerly did professe by the Speaker , when wee sent the King word , wee had no purpose at all , to trench vpon his Prerogatiues ; It is true my Lords , wee did so , but this was not anexed to any Petition , for in that manner we should neuer haue done it , And here I am Commanded ( with your favours ) to deliver vnto you what a Learned member of the house delivered vnto our House , touching this point . The King ( saith hee ) and the Subiect hath two Liberties , two Mannors joyning one vpon another ; The King is informed the Subiect hath intruded vpon him , but vpon tryall it appeareth not to bee so ; were it fitting thinke you , that the Subiect should giue securitie , that hee should not encroach or intrude of that Mannor of his , because the King had beene informed hee did so , I thinke you will be of another minde ; Wherefore I am Commanded ( seeing wee cannot admit of this addition ) to desire your Lordships , to joyne with vs in the Petition , which being graunted , and the hearts of the King and people knit together , I doubt not , but his Maiestie will bee safe at home , and feared abroad . In Sr. H. Martins Speech , pag. 9. lin . 25. for higher read lighter . MY Lords , the worke of this day , wherein the House of Commons hath imployed the Gentleman that spake last , and my selfe , was to reply to the answer , which it had pleased the Lord Keeper to make to those reasons which We had offered to your Lordships consideration , in iustification of Our refusall , not to admit into Our Petition the addition commended by your Lordships : which reasons of Ours , since they had not given such satisfaction as Wee desired and well hoped ( as by the Lord Keepers answer appeared ) it was thought fit for Our better order and method in replying , to diuide the Lord Keepers answer into two parts , a Legall and a Rationall . The reply to the Legall your Lordships have heard ; my selfe come intrusted to reply to the Rationall , which also consisted of two branches . The first deduced from the whole context of the additionall clause ; the second inforced out of some part . In the first were these reasons , That the same deserved Our acceptance . First , as satisfactory to the 1. King ; Secondly , to your Lordships ; Thirdly , agreeable 2. 3. to what Our selues had often protested and professed expressely by the mouth of Our Speaker . I must confesse these motives were weighty and of great force ; and therfore to avoide mis-understanding & mis-conceit , which otherwise might be taken against the House of Commons upon refusall of the propounded addition , it is necessarie to state the question rightly , and to set downe the true difference betweene your Lordships and Vs. Now indeede there is no question or difference between your Lordships and Vs , concerning this additionall clause in the nature and qualitie of a proposition . For so considered , We say it is most true , and to be received & imbraced by Vs , in toto , & qualibet parte , & qualibet syllabâ : yea , and were that the question , Wee should adde to this addition , and in stead of due regard , say , Wee have had , and have , and ever will have , a speciall and singular regard , Whereto ? To leave entire Soueraigne power ? No , That were to intimate , as if we had first cropt it , and then left it : but Our regard was to acknowledge and confesse it sincerely , and to maintaine it constantly , even to the hazzard of Our goods and lives , if neede be . To which purpose , your Lordships may bee pleased to remember what strict oath every member of Our House hath taken , this very Session , in these words . I ( A. B. ) doe utterly testifie and declare in my conscience , that the Kings Highnesse is the Supreame or Soueraigne Gouernour of this Realm in all causes , &c. and to my uttermost power will assist and defend all jurisdictions , priviledges , preheminences , and authorities , granted or belonging to the Kings Highnesse , or united or annexed to the Imperiall Crowne of this Realme . So that your Lordships neede not to borrow from Our protestations , any exhortations to Vs , to entertaine a writing in assistance of the Kings Soveraigne power , since Wee stand obliged by the most sacred bond of a solemne oath , to assist and defend the same , if cause or occasion so required . So that the onely question betweene your Lordships and Vs , is , Whether this clause should be added to our Petition , and received into it as part thereof ; which to do , your Lordships reasons have not perswaded Vs : Because so to admit it , were to overthrow the fabricke and substance of Our Petition of right , and to annihilate the right pretended by Vs and the Petition it selfe , in effect . For these words being added to Our Petition , viz. Wee humbly present this Petition , &c. with due regard to leave intire your Soveraigne power , &c. doe inure manifestly an exception to Our Petition . And an exception being of the nature of the thing whereunto it is an exception ( Exceptio est de regulâ ) must of necessity destroy the Rule or Petition , so far as to the case excepted ; Exceptio firmat regulam in casibus non exceptis , in casibus exceptis destruit regulam . Then this construction followeth upon Our Petition thus enlarged , that after We haue petitioned , That no Freeman should bee compelled by imprisonment , to lend or contribute money to his Maiestie , without his assent in Parliament , nor receive against his will souldiers into his house , or undergoe a Commission of Martiall Law for life and member in time of peace : Wee should adde , Except his Maiestie be pleased to require Our monies , and imprison Vs for not lending , and send Souldiers into Our houses , and execute Vs by Martiall Law in time of peace , by vertue of his Soveraigne power . Which construction , as it followeth necessarily upon this enlargement ; so it concludeth against Our right in the premises , and utterly frustrateth all Our Petition . Neither may it seeme strange if this clause additionall , ( which of it selfe in qualitie of a proposition , We confesse to be most certaine and true ) being added to Our Petition ( which also is true ) should overthrow the very frame and fabrick of it , seeing the Logicians take knowledge of such a fallacie , called by them fallacia à benè divisis ad malè coniuncta . Horace the Poet giveth an instance to this purpose in a Painter , who when he had painted the head of a man according to art , would then joyne to it the necke of a horse , and so marre both the one and the other ; whereas each by it selfe might haue been a peece of right good workmanship . The second branch of my Lord Keepers Rationall part , was inforced out of the last words of this addition , by which his Lordship said , that They did not leave entire all Soveraigne power , but that , wherewith his Maiestie is trusted for the protection , safetie , and happinesse of the people . As if his Lordship would inferre , that Soueraigne power wherewith , &c. in this place to bee terminum diminuentem , a terme of diminution or qualification , and in that consideration might induce Vs to accept it . But under his Lordships correction We cannot so interpret it : For first We are assured , that there is no Soveraigne power wherewith his Maiestie is trusted either by God or Man , but onely that , which is for the protection , safetie , & happinesse of his people . And therefore that limitation can make no impression upon Vs ; but We conceive it rather in this place to have the force termini adaugentis , to be a terme of important advantage against Our Petition , a terme of astriction , as that whensoeuer his Maiesties Soveraigne power should be exercised upon Vs , in all or any the particulars mentioned in the Petition , Wee should without further inquirie submit thereunto , as assuming and taking it pro concesso , it induced to our safetie and happinesse , &c. Since therefore ( as this Petition is now conceived ) it carrieth the forme and face of a picture , which representeth to the life , the pressures and grievances of the people , with the easie remedies : ( And therefore Wee hope that His Majestie , casting vpon it a gracious eye , will compassionate His poore loyall Subjects , and affoord a comfortable answer : ) I doe humbly pray your Lordships not to marre nor blemhsi the grace and face of this picture , with this unnecessarie addition : And unnecessarie I prove it to be , according to that rule , Expressio ejus quod tacite inest nihil operatur ; And Soveraigne power in cases where it hath place , and ought to be used , is alwayes necessarily understood , and though not expressed , yet supplyed by reasonable intendment in the opinion of all learned men . And therefore as it neyther is , nor can be by Us expressely excluded , so not necessarily by your Lordships to be expressely included ; especially in this Petition , where the addition therof would make such a confusion of the whole sense and substance . The Kings Soveraigne Power and Prerogative is alwayes able to save it selfe : and if it were not , Wee must , without this additament , save it to Our uttermost powers , if We will save Our Oaths , and save Our Soules . The true state of the cause thus standing betweene your Lordships and Vs , the House of Commons doth not a little marvell , upon what grounds your Lordships are so earnest , to urge upon them this addition to be inserted into their Petition . They nothing doubt but that the same proceedeth out of a sollicitude and feare which your Lordships have , lest otherwise the simple and absolute passage of this Petition might be construed hereafter in prejudice of his Majesties Soveraigne Power . And this your Lordships sollicitude and feare proceedeth from your love ( as the Poet saith ) Res est soliciti plena timoris amor . But I humbly pray your Lordships to examine with Vs the grounds of this your sollicitude and feare : which grounds needs must bee laid eyther upon the words of the Petition , or the intention of the Petitioners . Vpon the wordes there is no possibilitie to lay them ; for therein is no mention of the Soveraigne power . And were the words doubtfull , as thus , We pray the like things bee not done hereafter under pretext of your Majesties Soveraigne power ; yet in respect of the protestations preceding concomitant and subsequent to the Petition , such doubtfull words ought reasonably to be interpreted , only of such Soveraigne power as was not appliable to the cases wherein it was exercised , not of such Soveraigne power that should be justly practised . But there are no such doubtfull words , and therefore it followeth , that your Lordships feare and sollicitude must be grounded upon the intention of the Petitioners . Now your Lordships well know , and the House of Commons is not ignorant , that in a Session of Parliament , though it continue as many weekes as this hath done dayes , yet there is nothing prius & posterius , but all things are held and taken , as done at one time . If so , what a strange collection were this , that at the same time the House of Commons should oblige themselues by a fearfull adjuration , to assist & defend all priviledges and prerogatives belonging to the King , and at the same time by a Petition ( cautelously conveyed ) indeavour or intend to divest and deprive the King of some prerogatives belonging to his Crowne . If therefore such feare and sollicitude of your Lordships can neither be grounded upon the words nor intention of the Petitioners , I humbly pray your Lordships to lay them aside , and as We doe beleeve that the proposition of this addition from your Lordships , was not onely excusable , but commendable , as proceeding from your love ; so now having heard Our reasons , your Lordships would rest satisfied , that Our refusall to admit them into Our Petition , proceedeth from the conscience of the integrity and uprightnesse of Our owne hearts , that We in all this Petition , have no such end to abate or minish the Kings just Prerogative . And so much in reply to that Rationall part , whereby my Lord Keeper laboured to perswade the entertainment of this addition . This being done , it pleased the House of Commons to instruct and furnish mee with certaine reasons which I should use to your Lordships , to procure your absolute conjunction with Vs in presenting this Petition ; which albeit I cannot set forth according to their worth and the instructions given mee by the House , yet I hope their owne weight will so presse downe into your Lordships consciences and judgements , that without further scruple , you will cheerefully vouchsafe to accompany this Petition with your right noble presence . The first argument wherewith I was commanded to move your Lordships , was drawne from the consideration of the persons which are Petitioners , the House of Commons ; a House whose temper , mildnesse , and moderation , this Parliament hath been such , as We should be unthankfull and injurious to Almighty God , if We should not acknowledge his good hand upon Vs , upon Our tongues , upon Our hearts : procured ( no doubt ) by Our late solemne and publique humiliation and prayers . This moderation will the better appeare , if in the first place it may bee remembred in what passion and distemper many members of the House arrived thither , what bosomes , what pockets full of complaints and lamentable grievances , the most part brought thither , and those every day renewed by letters and packets from all parts and quarters . You know the old Proverbe , ubi dolor , ibi digitus , ubi amor , ibi oculus : It is hard to keepe our fingers from often handling the parts ill affected ; but yet Our moderation overcame Our passion , Our discretion over-ruled Our affection . This moderation also will the better appeare , if in the second place it be not forgotten , how Our Ancestors and Predecessors carried themselues in Parliaments upon higher provocations ; lesse could not serve their turnes , but new severe Commissions to heare and determine offences against their liberties ; publique Ecclesiasticall curses or excommunications against the authors or actors of such violations , accusations , condemnations , executions , banishments . But what have Wee said all this Parliament : We onely looke forward not backward , We desire amendment hereafter , no mans punishment for ought done heretofore : nothing written by Vs in bloud , nay , no one word spoken against any mans person in displeasure . The conclusion of Our Petition is , that Wee may bee better intreated in time to come . And doth not this moderate Petition deserve your Lordships cheerefull conjunction ex congruo & condigno ? If a worme being trodden upon could speak , a worme would say , Tread upon mee no more I pray you . Higher We rise not , lower We cannot descend . And thus much We thinke in modesty may well be spoken in Our owne commendation ; Thence to move your Lordships to vouchsafe Vs your noble company in this Petition , without surcharging it by this addition . Our next argument is drawne à Tempore , from the unseasonablenesse of the time . The wise man saith , There is a time for all things under the sunne , Tempus suum . And if in the wise mans judgement , a word spoken in its due time be as precious as gold and silver , then an unseasonable time detracts as much from the thing or word then done and spoken . We hold ( under Your favours ) that the time is not seasonable now for this addition . It is true , that of it selfe Soveraigne power is a thing alwaies so sacred , that to handle it otherwise than tenderly , is a kinde of sacriledge ; and to speake of it otherwise than reverently , is a kinde of blasphemie , but every vulgar capacity is not so affected : the most part of men , nay , almost all men judge and esteeme all things not according to their owne intrinsicke vertue and quality , but according to their immediate effects and operations , which the same things have upon them . Hence is it that Religion it selfe receiveth more or lesse credit and approbation , as the teachers and professors are worse or better . Yea , if God himselfe send a very wette harvest or seede time , men are apt enough to censure divine power . The Soveraigne power hath not now for the present the ancient amiable aspect , in respect of some late sad influences , but by Gods grace it will soone recover . To intermixe with this Petition any mention of Soveraigne power ( rebus sic stantibus ) when angry men say , Soveraigne power hath been abused , and the most moderate wish it had not beene so used , Wee hold not seasonable under your Lordships correction . Our next argument is drawne à Loco , We thinke the place where your Lordships would have this addition inserted , viz. in the Petition , no convenient or seasonable place . Your Lordships will easily beleeve that this Petition will runne through many hands , every man will bee desirous to see and to reade what their Knights and their Burgesses have done in Parliament upon their complaints , what they have brought home for their five Subsidies . If in perusing this Petition they fall upon the mention of Soveraigne power , they presently fall to arguing , and reasoning , ●nd 〈◊〉 what Soveraigne power is ; what is the latitude , whence the originall , where the bounds , &c. with many such curious and captious questions ; by which course Soveraigne power is little advanced or advantaged . For I have ever been of opinion , that it is then best with Soveraigne power , when it is had in tacite veneration , not when it is prophaned by publique harangues or examinations . Our last argument is drawne from Our duety and loyalty to his Majesty , in consideration wherof We are fearefull at this time to take this addition into Our Petition , lest Wee should doe his Majesty herein some dis-service . With your Lordships , Wee make the great Councell of the King and Kingdome : and though your Lordships having the happinesse to be nearer his Maiesty , know other things better , yet certainly the state and condition of the severall parts for which Wee serve , their dispositions and inclinations , their apprehensions , their fears and jealousies are best knowne unto Us. And here I pray your Lordships to give me leave to use the Figure called Reticentia , that is , to infinuate and intimate more than I meant to speak . Our chiefe and principall end this Parliament , is to make up all rents or breaches between the King and his Subiects , to draw them and knit them together from that distance , whereof the world abroad takes too much notice , to worke a perfect union and reconciliation . How improper and unapt at this time this addition would be in respect of this end , Wee cannot but foresee , and therefore shunne it ; and doe resolve , that it is neither agreeable to the persons of such Counsellors whom Wee act , nor answerable to that love and duety which We owe to his Majesty , to hazzard an end of such unspeakeable consequence , upon the admittance of this addition into Our Petition , wherof ( as We have shewed ) the omission at this time , can by no meanes harme the Kings Prerogative , the expression may produce manifold inconveniences . And therefore since the admittance of your Lordships addition into Our Petition , is incoherent and incompatible with the body of the same , since there is no necessary use of it for the saving of the Kings Prerogative , since the moderation of Our Petition deserveth your Lordships cheerefull conjunction with Vs , since this addition is unseasonable for the time , and inconvenient in respect of the place where your Lordships would have it inserted : and lastly , may prove a dis-service to his Majesty : I conclude with a most affectionate prayer to your Lordships , to joyne with the House of Commons in presenting this Petition unto his sacred Majesty , as it is , without this addition . FINIS . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A01768-e370 1. à personis petentium . 2. à circumstantia temporis . 3. à Loco . 4.