Mr. Edvvard Hydes speech at a conference betweene both Houses on Tewsday the 6th of July 1641 at the transmission of the severall impeachments against the Lord Chiefe Barron Damport, Mr. Barron Trevor, and Mr. Barron Weston. Speech at a conference betweene both Houses on Tuesday the 6th of July 1641, at the transmission of the severall impeachments against the Lord Chiefe Baron Davenport, Mr. Baron Trevor, and Mr. Baron Weston Clarendon, Edward Hyde, Earl of, 1609-1674. This text is an enriched version of the TCP digital transcription A33238 of text R14088 in the English Short Title Catalog (Wing C4426). Textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. The text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with MorphAdorner. The annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). Textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. This text has not been fully proofread Approx. 18 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 8 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. EarlyPrint Project Evanston,IL, Notre Dame, IN, St. Louis, MO 2017 A33238 Wing C4426 ESTC R14088 13023886 ocm 13023886 96659 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A33238) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 96659) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 259:E198, no 36) Mr. Edvvard Hydes speech at a conference betweene both Houses on Tewsday the 6th of July 1641 at the transmission of the severall impeachments against the Lord Chiefe Barron Damport, Mr. Barron Trevor, and Mr. Barron Weston. Speech at a conference betweene both Houses on Tuesday the 6th of July 1641, at the transmission of the severall impeachments against the Lord Chiefe Baron Davenport, Mr. Baron Trevor, and Mr. Baron Weston Clarendon, Edward Hyde, Earl of, 1609-1674. [2], 12 p. for Abel Roper ..., Printed at London : 1641. Reproduction of original in Thomason Collection, British Library. eng Davenport, Humphrey, -- Sir, 1566-1645. Trevor, Thomas, -- Sir, 1586-1656. Weston, Richard, -- Sir, 1579?-1652. Great Britain -- History -- Charles I, 1625-1649. A33238 R14088 (Wing C4426). civilwar no Mr. Edvvard Hydes' speech at a conference betweene both Houses, on Tewsday the 6th. of July, 1641. At the transmission of the severall impea Clarendon, Edward Hyde, Earl of 1641 3275 10 0 0 0 0 0 31 C The rate of 31 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the C category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2002-10 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2002-12 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2003-01 John Latta Sampled and proofread 2003-01 John Latta Text and markup reviewed and edited 2003-02 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion Mr. EDVVARD HYDES SPEECH AT A Conference betweene both Houses , on Tewsday the 6th . of Iuly , 1641. At the Transmission of the severall Impeachments against the Lord Chiefe Barron Dampert , Mr. Barron Trevor , and Mr. Barron Weston . Printed at London for Abel Roper , at the Black Spread-Eagle , against St. Dunstans Church in ●●●● Mr. HYDES SPEECH the 6th of Iuly 1641. My Lords , THERE cannot bee a greater instance of a sicke and languishing Common-Wealth , then the businesse of this day ; good God , how have the guilty these late yeares beene punished , when the Judges themselves have been such Delinquents . 'T is no marvell that an irregular , extravagant , arbitrary power , like a Torrent , hath broke in upon us , when our bankes , and our Bulworks , the Lawes , were in the Custody of such persons . Men who had lost their Innocence could not preserve their courage , nor could we looke that they who had so visibly undone us , themselves should have the vertue or credit to rescue us from the oppression of other men , 't was once said by one , who alwayes spoke excellently , that the twelve Iudges were like the 12. Lyons under the Throne of Solomen ; under the Throne in obedience , but yet Lyons : your Lordships shall this day heare of six , who be they what they will be else ) were no Lyons : who upon vulgar feares delivered up the pretious Forts they were trusted with , almost without assault , and in a tame , easie , trance of flattery and servitude , lost and forfeited ( shamefully forfeited ) that reputation , awe and reverence , which the Wisedome , Courage , and Gravity of their Venerable Predecessors , had contracted and fastned to the places they now hold , and even rendred that study and Profession , which in all Ages hath been , and I hope now shall bee of an Honourable estimation , so contemptible and vile , that had not this blessed day come , all men would have had that quarrell to the Law it selfe , which Marius had to the Greeke tongue , who thought it a mockery to learne that Language , the Masters whereof lived in bondage under others : And I appeale to these unhappie Gentlemen themselves , with what a strange negligence , skorne and indignation , the faces of all men , even of the meanest have beene directed towards them , since to call it no worse ) that fatall declension of their understandings in those Judgements , of which they stand here charged before your Lordships : But ( my Lords ) the worke of this day is the greatest instance of a growing ; and thriving Common-wealth too : and is as the dawning of a faire and lasting day of happinesse to this Kingdome , 't is in your Lordships power , ( and I am sure t is in your Lordships will ) to restore the dejected broken people of this Island , to their former joy and securitie , the successors of these men to their old priviledge and veneration , & sepultas propè leges revocare . My Lords , the Iniquity of Iudges is infectious , and their craftiest combination to leave as few innocent as may be , your Lordships have heard of the justice of two of the greatest Courts of Westminster , and that you may know how little advantage the other of his Majesties Revenue , the Court of Exchequer , hath of its fellowes in the administration of right . I am commanded by the House of Commons to present to your Lordships three severall charges , against three Judges of that Court , my Lord chiefe Baron Damport , Mr. Barron Trevor , and Mr. Barron Weston , your Lordships will please to heare them read . Your Lord ships observe , that the great resolution in Ship-money , was a Crime of so prodigious a nature , that it could not be easily swallowed , and digested by the Consciences , even of these men , but as they who are to wrastle or run a race , by degrees prepare themselves by dyet , and lesser assayes for the maine exercise , so these Iudges enter themselves and harden their hearts by more particular trespasses upon the Law : by impositions and taxes upon the Merchant in Trade , by burdens and pressures upon the Gentry in Knighthood , before they could arrive at that universall destruction , of the Kingdome by Ship-money ; which promised reward and security for all their former services , by doing the worke of a Parliament to his Majesty in supplies , and seemed to delude justice , in leaving none to judge them , by making the whole Kingdome party to their oppression . My . Lords , of this Crime these three Iudges seeme to be at least equally guilty , for however one of them my Lord Chiefe Barron , is not charged with that Judgement , in the Exchequer-Chamber against Mr. Hampden , and how hee failed in making his conclusion from his owne premisses , he onely can informe you . Your Lordships see how quickly he repented , that that mischiefe was done without him there , by his overtaking his Brethren in his circuit , and as he said of the vilest kinde of flatterers , Crudelissimo servitutis genere , quod intra se abominabantur , palam laudabant : hee made all possible hast to redeeme himselfe from that imputation of Iustice , and declared publiquely in the face of the Country , that it was adjudged by all the Iudges of England , that Ship money was due to the King , though I beleeve he will be now glad to be thought none of those Judges , and what others did he well knew , And thereupon imprison'd a poore man for doing that , which if Ship-money had beene due to his Majesty by Magna Charta , had beene lawfull for him to have done ; of the Resolutions and judgement it selfe I am not to speak , your Lord-ships have passed your noble Judgement . My Lords , the first charge in order is , that presumptuous Decree against Mr. Rolles and others , and in truth whatsoever glosse they put upon it , is no other then a plaine grant of the Subsidy of Tunnage and Poundage to his Majesty upon all Merchandize ; after their goods seised for non-payment of that pretended duty , the Proprietors brought Replevins ( which is the naturall and genuine remedy , appointed by Law in case of Property , and grounded upon property ) the Court-awards an injunction to stay these Replevins , the goods were in the Kings possession , and no Replevin would lye against the King : truly ( my Lords ) the Injustice here is not so scandalous , as the fraud ; we all know a Replevin ( as no other suite ) lyes against the King , if the goods be in his owne hands , in his Bedchamber , but to call a seizure by the Farmours ( of whose interest this Court will not deny the notice , and if his Majesty had any right , they well knew he had transferred it to these men ) or the Ware-houses of the Customers , the Kings possession , to defeate the Subject of his proper remedy , was the boldest piece of Sophistry we have met with in a Court of Law : Pardon me if I am transported : The Civilians say , Tutor Domini loco habetur cum re● administra● , non cum pupillum spoliat : The Office of Judges is to preserve and give remedy for right , here they found a right , a knowne and questionable right , yet instead of assisting tooke away the remedy , to preserve that right , what shall we call these Iudges ? my Lords , in this Argument I am not willing to say much ; t is enough that your Lord-ships know Tunnage and Poundage is not a duty to the Crowne ; but a Subsidie , and so granted in Subsidium , sometimes pro una vice tantum , sometimes for yeares , and then ceased when the time did expire , that when it was first granted for life , it was with this clause : Ita quod non trahatur in exemplum futuris Regibus , but t is abundantly enough that his sacred Majesty cannot bee tainted with the advices and judgements of these men , but lookes on this duty singly as the meere affection and bountie of his Subjects , the which no doubt he shall never want . My Lords , the next charge is concerning Impositions , Mr. Vassalls goods are seised for not paying Impost , which hee conceived to bee against Law , he is imprisoned , and judgement given against him , without suffering him to bee heard , upon the point of right , because that had beene heretofore iudged in Bates's Case : And yet these very Judges have not thought themselves so bound up by former judgements , but that since this time they have argued a case upon the same point , which was adjudged in Hillary Terme in the 15. Eliz. and contirmed after by all the Iudges of England in a Writ of Errour , in the 21. yeare of that Queenes reigne , t is Walsinghams Case , however the same modesty seized them againe in the case of a Noble Lord , not now present : Whether the King without assent of Parliament , may set impositions upon the Wares , and goods of Merchants , is no new question ; it hath been more then once debated in Parliament , and indeed whilst it was a question , was fittest for a Parliament : I will not trouble your Lordships long : 't is now resolved , and nothing new can be said in this Argument , though I may have leave to say , if the King can by his Letters Parents create such a right to himselfe , and by a legall course recover that right under such a Title , such Letters Patents are in no degree inferior to an Act of Parliament : to reconcile such a power in the Prince , and the property of the Subject , that the one must not be destructive to the other , will require a much greater ▪ a subtler understanding then I pretend to ; but my Lords I doe not thinke the judgement in this point to be so great a crime in these Iudges , as that they presumed to judge at all ; the matter had beene long debated in Parliament undetermined , and therefore not within the Conusance of an inferiour Court , had it not beene true that Fortescue sayes in his 36. Chapter of the Lawes of England , Nequs Rex per se aut ministros suos , tallagi● , subsidia aut quaeris onera alia imponit &c. sin● concessione vel assensu ●otius Regni sui in Parliamento suo expresso &c. If the Stature de Tallagio no● concedend● , if the 30th . Chapter of Magna Charta , and all the other Statutes to that purpose , bee not cleere in the point , they might easily have apprehended so much weight , so much difficulty in the question , ( especially since in all our Law bookes , not so much as the word imposition is found , untill the case in my Lord Dyer of 1. Eliz. ( fol. 163. ) that they might very well have suspected themselves to bee no competent Iudges for that determination , and I hope by the experience of this Parliament the Iudges , will recover that ancient modesty , to beleeve that some cases may fall out that may not be properly within their jurisdiction in the 9. yeare of Eliz : ( t is in the Parliament Rolls ) It being found by an office after the death of Gilbert de Clare Earle of Gloster , that his sisters were his Heyres , nist Comitissa Glocestriae esset pregnans , the question was , whether the King might grant the Heyres their Livery in preiudicium impregnaturae : This was conceived negotium novum , & difficile , and the King having commanded the Chancellour and Iudges to deliver their opinions in writing , they returned , quod non audebant dictum negotium definire , nec Domino Regi consulere sine assensu magnatum , propter raritatem & difficultatem : whereupon day was given to the parties , adproximum Parliamentum . And your Lordships well know the speciall care that is taken by the Statute of 14. Ed. 3. cap. 5. that such matters as for the difficulty are not fit for the Iudges , or through eminent delay are not dispatched by the Iudges , shall be determined in Parliament . Not such matters as the parties concerned , had rather venture upon your Lordships judgements , then upon the Rules , and proceedings of the Law ( God knowes what mischiefe and confusion may fall out upon that admission ) there must be such difficulty , such delay , before that Statute meant your Lordships lustice should be concerned in the resolution , I wish these Gentlemen had thought this busines a matter of that difficulty as had been fit for such a delay . My Lords , we come next to the charge , concerning Knighthood . Mr. Maleverer appeares upon the processe of that Court , pleads and submits to his fine , ponit se in gratiam curiae : The Barons refuse to impose any fine , they had no power to doe that , he must treate with certaine Commissioners appointed for that purpose , and compound with them : your Lordships have not met in the same men such contradictions of crymes , who would suspect the same men in one charge , to have the mettle to usurp the power , and exercise the jurisdiction of the highest Court , the Court of Parliament , and presently to want the Spirit to doe that which was so restrained , and peculiar to their places to have done , as that none else could doe it ? they had no power to fyne as if the sole busines of sworn Iudges in a Court of Law , were to summon and call men thither , and then to send them on errands to other Cōmissioners for Iustice : 't is true the Commissioners of 1. Edw. 1. to Tiptosse and Berk , and since to others , were and have been to compound with those , who desired to compound , not otherwise , they had no power to compell any , to fine any ; that trust by the Law , was and is onely in the Iudges : so that if this duty were aright to his Majesty , and the Persons lyable refuse to compound , for ought these Iudges can doe , the King must loose this duty , they can impose no fyne , onely they have found a trick , which they call the course of the Court ; to make his Majesty a saver : appeare while you will , plead what your will , submit to the mercy of the Court , Issues shall goe on still as if you did neither , till you have done somewhat that Court will not order you to doe , nor is bound to take notice of when you have done : your Lordships will help us out of this Circle ? And that you may see how incapable they are of any excuse in this point , the very Mittimus out of the Chancery gives them expresse command amongst other things , ut fines omnium illorum qui iuxta proclamationem praedict , ordinem antepraedict , diem sus●episse debuerunt , capiatis &c. 'T is onely worth your Lordships observation , this misfortune commonly attends ( and may it ever ) those absolute , disused rights , that be the thing in it selfe in a degree lawfull , the advisers , and Ministers of it so faile in the execution , that as it usually proves as grievous to the Subiect , so by some circumstances it proves as penall to the Instruments , as if it were in the very nature of the thing against all the Lawes of government . I have wearied your Lordships : you see in what a dresse of injustice , subtilty and oppression , I am very unwillingly compelled to present these Iudges to you : if they appeare to your Lordships under any other character of known and confessed learning in the whole course of their lives , how farre that will aggravate their fault your Lordships must onely judge ; if under the excuse of ignorance , or not much knowledge in the duty of their places , your Lordships will easily conclude , what infinite mischiefe , of which your Lordships have no particular in formation , the Subjects of this Kingdome have suffered in their lives , in their fortunes , under such ignorance , and such presumption : if under the reputation of prudence and integrity in all cases , except these presented to your Lordships ; your Lordships will be at least of the same opinion that he of Lacedemon was of the Athenians if they carried themselves well , when time was , and now ill ; they deserve a double punishment : because they are not good , as they were ; and because they are evill , as they were not . My Lords , if the excellent , envied constitution of this Kingdome , hath beene of late distempered , your Lordships see the causes : if the sweet harmony betweene the Kings protection , and the Subjects obedience , hath unluckily suffered interruption , if the royall Iustice , and Honour of the best of Kings hath beene mistaken by his people , if the duty and affection of the most faithfull and loyall Nation , hath been suspected by their gracious Soveraigne , if by these misrepresentations , and these misunderstandings , the King and People have beene robbed of the delight and comfort of each other , and the blessed peace of this Island beene shaken and frighted into Tumults , and commotion , into the poverty , though not into the rage of Warre , as a people prepared for destruction and desolation : these are the men actively or passively , by doing or not doing , have brought this upon us : Misera servitus falsa pax vocatur : ubi iudicia desinunt incipit bellum . My Lords , I am commanded by the House of Commons , to desire your Lordships , that these three Iudges may be speedily required to make their answeres to these Impeachments : and that such further proceedings may bee had against them , as the course and Iustice of Parliament will admit . FINIS .