A discourse of the use of images in relation to the Church of England and the Church of Rome in vindication of Nubes testium against a pamphlet entitled The antiquity of the Protestant religion concerning images, directed against some leaves of that collection. Gother, John, d. 1704. 1687 Approx. 70 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 20 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2008-09 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A41594 Wing G1328 ESTC R15744 13594131 ocm 13594131 100730 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A41594) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 100730) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 788:33) A discourse of the use of images in relation to the Church of England and the Church of Rome in vindication of Nubes testium against a pamphlet entitled The antiquity of the Protestant religion concerning images, directed against some leaves of that collection. Gother, John, d. 1704. 39 p. Printed by Henry Hills ..., London : 1687. Written by John Gother. Cf. DNB. "Publisht with allowance." Reproduction of original in the University of Illinois (Urbana-Champaign Campus). Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. 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Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Gother, John, d. 1704. -- Nubes testium. Pelling, Edward, d. 1718. -- Antiquity of the Protestant religion. Church of England -- Customs and practices. Catholic Church -- Customs and practices. Idols and images -- England -- Early works to 1800. Protestantism -- Early works to 1800. 2007-09 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2007-10 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2007-12 Elspeth Healey Sampled and proofread 2007-12 Elspeth Healey Text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A DISCOURSE OF THE Use of Images : In Relation to the Church of England AND THE Church of Rome . In Vindication of NUBES TESTIUM . Against a Pamphlet Entitled , The Antiquity of the Protestant Religion concerning Images , directed against some Leaves of that Collection . Publisht with Allowance . LONDON , Printed by Henry Hills , Printer to the King 's Most Excellent Majesty , for His Houshold and Chappel . 1687. A Discourse of the Use of Images : In relation to the Church of England and the Church of Rome . In Vindication of NUBES TESTIUM . THE Factious and Unchristian Temper of our Age has so unhappily spread it self thro' all Ranks of Men , that even those , whose business ought to be the Advancement of Piety , have not escap'd it 's malignant Influence . And this they evidence too clearly to the world , whilst They shew themselves so industrious in multiplying the number of many needless Contentions in the Church , instead of endeavouring to lessen and abate them . This is the Misfortune of him , who undertakes to assert the Antiquity of the Protestant Religion concerning Images , in Answer to a Dozen Leaves of Nubes Testium : Who because he is a Profess'd and Virulent Enemy to Catholics , seems resolv'd to contradict and Ridicule , in a strain of Drollery more becoming the Stage than his Coat , every thing they Believe and Teach , tho' it be the very Doctrin of his own Church . And like a Blind Combatant strikes at all before him , without distinction of Friend and Enemy , with a Have at all . At this Game plays this Undertaker ; whose only care being to write an Answer in FULL , Answers , and Condemns even those Practices , as are allow'd and approv'd by his own Church ; and in this new Method of Controversie spends the greatest part of his Twelve-penny Pamphlet : So that tho' he pretends to be a Son of the Church of England , yet whosoever considers , how often he strikes that Church in the Face , must needs question the Legitimation , and necessarily conclude , that 't is Uncertain What Church he is of , whilst the only thing Certain is , That he is No Papist . This whole matter , as to his needless multiplying of Controversies , and opposing the Doctrin and Practice of the Church of England , as well as that of the Church of Rome , I 'll shew briefly in declaring , what the Church of Rome and England teach concerning , 1. The Historical Use of Sacred Images . 2. The Commemorative Use of Images . 3. The Respect and Honor due to Images . In all which if it be made appear that the Two Churches agree , there will need but little more , to prove This Answerer a Trisler , whilst he so laboriously sets himself against both ; and at the end of all , says nothing to the purpose . 1. As to the Historical Vse of Images , 't is the Profess'd Doctrin and Practice of the Church of Rome , to have the Pictures and Images of Holy Things and Passages both in Houses and Churches , for the instruction of the Ignorant in the knowledge of the History of both the Old and New Testament ; that so they may be acquainted with those Sacred Persons of Patriarchs , Prophets and Apostles , and be inform'd of the Wonderful Works wrought by God in Mans Creation and Redemption . This appears in the Council of Trent Sess . 25 and in the Catechism ad Parochos part . 3. de Invoc . Sanc. par . 40. Both which agree , that Holy Pictures and Images are made , to inform the People of the History of Holy Writ , and that for this end they are set up in Churches and other Places . This same Historical Vse of Holy Images is conform likewise to the Doctrin and Practice of the Church of England , as is evident in Mr. Montagu's Appeal to Caesar , who declaring the Church of England's Own , Proper , True and Antient Tenets , ( Ep. Ded. to the King ) such as be without any doubt or question , Legitimate and Genuine , such as she will both acknowledge and maintain for her own , in this Book Authoris'd and Publish'd by Express order of King James and Charles l. and approv'd as containing nothing in it , but what was agreeable to the Doctrin and Discipline establish'd in the Church of England ( Ib. ) says expresly , c. 20. that Images were improv'd unto an Historical Vse in St. Gregory 's time , and then adds ; Had the Church of Rome gon no farther in Practice or Precept , than that which St. Gregory recommends , our Church ( says he ) I suppose ( for so our Doctrin is ) would not blame them , nor have departed from them about that Point . And agen chap. 23. Doth the English Church condemn the Historical or Civil use of Images ? It do's not ( says he ) in Practice ; all the World knows that ; nor yet in Precept or Doctrin , that I know . And at the end of the same Chapter , he says , Images may be had and made — ut Ornatui sint , ut Memoriae , ut Historiae ; For Ornament , for Commemoration , and for History ; and that they may be made for such Ends , No Law of God forbiddeth , says our Gamaliel , pa. 203. ad Apol. Bel. From whose words , in a Book so Authentic , and approv'd by Two Kings , Heads of the Church , 't is beyond question , that the Historical Vse of Images is agreeable to the Doctrin and Practice of the Church of England . And this do's most Evidently appear to any , that will but put his head into any Church of this Communion , where presently Moyses , and Aaron shew themselves to the Beholder , and let him know the concern they had in Those Commandements , which they there guard betwixt them . This may be seen with great advantage in the Church at the Savoy , where besides these Two Saints of the Jewish Law , the Four Evangelists have their place in full proportion between the side Windows , with St. Peter , and St. Stephen , and the Twelve Apostles in twelve Niches on the Front of the Gallery . But above all , the New Church in St. James's in the Fields commends this Practice in a Rare Piece of Workmanship , where the hand of the Artist has set forth to the Life upon the Font , the History of Original Sin , and it's Cure in the Water of Baptism . Adam and Eve stand beneath , Confessing the guilt of that Sin , for which Infants are brought thither to be cleans'd . Round the Bason is seen Christ under the hand of the Baptist in Jordan , authorising the Institution of that Salutary Laver : And over it is an Angel , as it were descending to move the Waters , and to signifie that the efficacy of that Sacrament is from above . Then if you turn towards the Altar , in one Figure is represented the Institution of the Blessed Sacrament at the Last Supper : The very same which is over the Altar at his Majesties Chappel at Whitehal , and for the very same intent , viz. A Pellican feeding her Young ones with her Blood ; to signifie what Christ gives to the Faithful , his Children , in the Sacrament , that he feeds them with his Blood. Much more may be seen in Cathedral and Collegiate Churches of this kind , not only in relation to the Old , but New Testament , even the Crucifixion of our Saviour , but especially in the New Common-Prayer-Books , interleav'd with Pictures . 2ly . As to the Commemorative Vse of Images , 't is receiv'd and approv'd in the Church of Rome , as 't is explicated in the Council of Trent above cited , where 't is said ; That the Use of Holy Images is Beneficial to the People , because by them they are put in mind of the Benefits and Blessings receiv'd from Christ ; and by seeing the Wonderful Miracles wrought by the Power of God , and the Exemplary Lives of the Saints , they are excited to give God Thanks for such Favors , to love him , and compose their Lives according to the Exemple of such Holy Men. The same is declared in the Catechism ad Parochos , ut sup . where the Parish Priest is directed to inform the People ; That Holy Images are plac'd in Churches , to put them in mind of the Divine Mysteries and Blessings , that so they may be more Zealous and Attentive in the Love and Service of so Good a God. And that by beholding the Representations of the Saints , they may be admonish'd , to conform their Lives to such Examples . Thus teaches the Church of Rome . The Church of England likewise agrees with her in the same Doctrin and Practice ; allowing of Images , as helps to Piety , and for the affecting the minds of the Beholders with Pious Cogitations , and encouraging them to a Vertuous and Exemplary Life . This is most apparent in the Injunctions given by King Edward VI. to his Clergy and Ministers , wherein they are order'd to Instruct the People in their Circuits , that Images serve for Remembrance , whereby Men may be admonish'd of the holy Lives and Conversation of them that the said Images Represent . Which is the very Doctrin now mention'd in the Council of Trent and Catechism ad Parochos . This Mr. Montagu explicates more at large , in his Book call'd A New Gag , &c. where treating of Images , he says to the Papists : Images have these uses assign'd by your Schools — The Instruction of the Ignorant , the Refreshing of History , and Exciting Devotion : You and WE also give unto them these . And a little after , The Pictures of Christ , the Blessed Virgin , and Saints may be made , and had in Houses , set up in Churches . — The Protestants do it , and use them for Helps of Piety . In his Appeal to Caesar likewise he thus delivers the Sense of the Church of England in this affair , c. 21. Our strictest Writers , says he , do not condemn or censure St. Gregory for putting upon them ( Images ) that Historical use of suggesting unto , moving or affecting the mind even in Pious and Religious Affections : For Instance , in Remembring more feelingly , and so being empassion'd more effectually , with the Death , Blood-shed and Bitter Passion of our Saviour , when we see that Story fully and lively Represented unto us in Colors , or Work by a Skilful hand . And I know not the Man that is made of human Mold , but when he readeth on this ( Painted ) Book , his Tragical Endurances for Man , will reflect upon himself , and his own Soul and Conscience , with a Lively apprehension of Man's Sin , God's Love , Christ's endeared Charity , in undergoing these unknown Sufferings for our sake . Thus this Eminent Author most feelingly explicates the Pious use of Holy Images , as proper for the suggesting Good Thoughts , and inflaming the Soul with most Christian Affections , in order to the Love and Service of God. In this the Reader may behold , how little Difference , or rather how great an Agreement there is between the Legitimate and Genuin Doctrin of the Church of England , and the Church of Rome , as to these two first Points mention'd , viz. The Historical and Commemorative Vse of Sacred Images . Now when a Member of the Church of Rome has endeavor'd to shew , that this Doctrin as to the Historical and Commemorative Vse of Holy Images is agreeable to the Antient Church , as is done in Nubes Testium ; who could ever expect , that any Member of the Church of England , much less a Divine , should appear , bidding Defiance to such Doctrin , with endeavors to shew the Practice of it to be Heathenish , Heretical , and but a Popish Invention ? Could a Man think , that any Church of England Divine would take so much pains to abuse and Ridicule his own Church ? Certainly he must be either very Ignorant of what his own Church teaches ; or very blindly Malicious against the Church of Rome , that to expose her , should not care what Mischief he did his own Mother Church . But thus it happens sometimes , when Men are guided by Passion instead of Truth and Reason ; 't is impossible to avoid these Absurdities , when such Bitter Spirits take Pen in hand , who look no further in Answering , than to Contradict their Adversary , right or wrong . And how far this Answerer has done this , 't will be not amiss in this Place to consider . 1st . Then he pretends to shew , pa. 20. That the first making of Pictures among Christians proceeded partly from the Example of some HERETICS . This Bolt he shoots against the Papists : But will not any Reader presently reflect , that if Pictures in Churches , be not a Christian Institution , but the Corruption of Heretics ; that the Church of England , for all the Pictures they set up in their Churches , follow not Christ and his Apostles , as they pretend , but the Invention of Heretics ? And what Credit is this to his Church ? 2ly . He asserts ib. that the making Pictures among Christians had it's Origin principally from the Fond Inclinations of those , who being Converted from Heathenism to Christianity , retain'd still an old relish and love of those Superstitious ▪ Practices , to which they had been accustom'd so long . Is not this to let the Person of Quality , to whom he writes , know ; that the Church of England , in using and allowing Sacred Pictures of Christ , his Apostles , &c. ( as is shewn above ) in Houses and Churches , follows not only an Heretical Abuse , but likewise the Superstitious Practices of Heathens ? 3ly . He says , that there was no such thing , pa. 15. as the Vse of Images in the Primitive Ages . Which is to inform his Reader , that the Church of England , as to this Point of Images , is faln from the Christianity of the Primitive Times ; and that she stands in need of a Reformation . 4ly . He shews pa. 22. that the having Pictures in Churches , is contrary to an Express Canon of the Council of Eliberis , held An. 305. by the Fathers of the Primitive Church . In which he condemns his own Church for contradicting the Positive Decrees of so Antient a Council . 5ly . From the Example of an Antient Bishop renting a Veil or Hanging , whereon was the Image of Christ , he declares , pa. 25. in the words of the Bishop , such Pictures to be contrary to the Authority of the Scriptures . Which is plainly to tell the World , that the Use of Hangings , such as have Christ , or his Saints Represented on them , as may be seen in many Houses , in Cathedral and Collegiate Churches , are all contrary to the Word of God. These are some of the Severe Reflections he makes upon his own Church , while he 's blindly knocking down Popery . Who could desire a better condition'd Antagonist than this , who is so Good-natur'd , as never to strike at his Adversary , but he gives himself a Blow over the Face at the same time ? Has not he fairly defended his own Church , while he thus exposes her under the Guilt of being Heathenish , Heretical , going contrary to the Primitive Church , to Councils and Scriptures , which is the Blackest of that Dirt , he has done his best to cast upon the Church of Rome ? Hitherto the Reader has seen the Doctrin of the Church of Rome and of England , as far as concerns the Two First Points , viz. the Historical and Commemorative Use of Holy Images ; and how this Worthy Answerer , with some wrested and misapply'd Passages of Antiquity , strikes most rashly at Both Churches ; not caring , so he can but overthrow the Church of Rome , what other Church , tho' his own , falls with her . Now we will consider the Third Point , which is of the Honor and Respect due to these Images of Christ , &c. And as to this , The Church of Rome teaches , that the Images of Christ , &c. ought to be kept , especially in Churches , and DUE Honor and Veneration given them : Not for that any Divinity or Vertue is believ'd to be in them , for which they are to be Worship'd ; or that any thing is to be Asked of them , or any Confidence to be placed in them , as was done by the Heathens ; but because the Honor shewn to them is referr'd to the Prototypes , or Things Represented by them : So that by the Images we Kiss , and before which we Kneel , we Adore Christ and Reverence his Saints , whom the said Images Represent . So the Council of Trent delivers this Doctrin , Sess . 25. The like is shewn in the Catechism ad Parochos , ubi sup . And the whole meaning of it is nothing more , than what was given at large by Leontius Bishop of Cyprus , who flourish'd An. 620. that is , above a Thousand and threescore years ago ; who thus makes his Apology for the Christians against the Jews , who charg'd them with the breach of the second Commandment , in giving honor to Images . The Pictures and Images , says he , of the Saints are not ador'd amongst us , like Gods. For if I Worship'd the Wood of an Image , as God , I might as well do the like to any other Wood : If I honor'd the Wood as God , I would never throw it into the fire , when the Image is once disfigur'd . — As therefore he that has receiv'd a Commission from his Prince , and kisses the Seal , dos not respect the Wax , the Paper or the Lead , but gives the Honor to the King ; so we Christians , when we shew Respect to the Figure of the Cross , do not honor the Nature of the Wood , but the Sign , the Pledge , the Remembrance of Christ ; through this beholding him , who was Crucified on it , we respect and Adore him . And as Children , full of a dear Affection to their Father , who is Absent from them , do kiss with Tears , and with all Tenderness embrace his Stick , his Chair , his Coat , which they see at home ; and yet do not adore these things , but express their Desire and Honor they have for their Father : Just so do all we Faithful honor the Cross , as Christs Staff ; the most Holy Sepulcher , as his Chair and Couch , the Manger and Bethleem as his House , &c. Not that we honor the Place , the House , the Country , the City or the Stones , but Him that was Conversant amongst them , who appear'd in our Flesh , and deliver'd us from Error , Christ our Lord ; and for Christ we honor those Things , which belong to him , describing his Passion in our Churches , in our Houses , in the Streets , in Images , upon our Linen , in our Chambers , upon our Cloths , and upon every Place , to the end that having these continually before our Eyes , we may be put in mind , and not like thee ( O Jew ) forget our Lord and God. As you therefore expressing a veneration for the Book of the Law , do not Honor the Paper or Ink of which 't is compos'd , but the Word of God contain'd in it : So I , shewing Reverence to the Image of Christ , do not Adore ( no , God forbid ) the Wood or the Colors ; but having an Inanimate Representation of Christ , by this seem to be possess'd of , and to Worship Christ himself . As Jacob having receiv'd the party-color'd and Bloody Coat of his Son Joseph , kiss'd it , full of Tears , and put it to his Eyes ; not doing this for any Love or Honor he had for the Coat ; but by this seeming to kiss Joseph , and hold him in his Arms : So all Christians , holding or kissing any Image of Christ , of his Apostles or Martyrs , do the like to Christ himself , or his Martyrs , in the affection of their Souls . By all which 't is evident , that all the Honor and Veneration paid by Catholics to any Picture or Image of Christ or his Martyrs , is only to express the Love and Honor they have for Christ and his Martyrs ; and that in thus doing , they no more commit Idolatry , or make Gods of those Pictures , than that Woman is disloyal to her Husband , who in affection to him , respects and kisses his Picture ; than that Subject is a Traytor to his Prince , who Honors his Portraiture ; or than all those , who pay a Reverence to the Chair of State , for the Relation it has to the King , make a King of the Chair , in so doing . This then is the Doctrin and Practice of the Church of Rome . The Church of England seems to concur with the Church of Rome in all this Point . This may be gather'd partly out of the Ecclesiastical Canons agreed to An. 1603. in the First year of King James I. where Can. 30. 't is said , That the Holy Ghost did so Honor by the mouths of the Apostles , the very NAME of the Cross , that it did not only comprehend even Christ Crucified under that Name , but likewise the efficacy of Christ's Death and Passion , &c. In which words this Church acknowledges , the Giving Honor to the NAME of the Cross to have been the Practice of the Apostles , as they were inspir'd by the Holy Ghost . And that the Name of the Cross , was not only to put them in mind of the Person , whom they were to Worship ( as a Modern Doctor says of the Name of Jesus , ) but that the Holy Ghost did by the Apostles , Honor the very NAME it self . Spiritus S. per Apostolorum ora , ipsum Crucis Nomen usque adeo honoravit . And in honoring that Name , did honor Christ Crucified ; Christum ipsum Crucifixum sub eodem comprehenderet . Which is the very Practice and Sense of Catholics , both as to the Name of the Cross , of Jesus , and of Pictures ; Names or Words being Pictures to the Ear , as Pictures are Words to the Eye . But it comes nearer our Case , what is added in the same Canone 2 o. Honor ac Dignitas Crucis Nomini acquisita , etiam & SIGNO Crucis , vel ipsa Apostolorum aetate ( neque enim contrarium ostendi potest ) existimationem peperit Honorificam . The Honor and Esteem shewn to the NAME of the CROSS , did produce even in the Age of the Apostles , an honorable Esteem likewise for the SIGN of the Cross ; neither can any thing contrary to this be prov'd . What can be plainer , than that according to this Canon , 't is the Sense of the Church of England , that the Primitive Christians were taught by the Apostles , not only to Honor the Name of the Cross , but likewise the SIGN of the Cross ? And certainly , if according to this Church , the Apostles taught their Followers , to honor in their Hearts and Souls the Sign of the Cross , it can neither be contrary to the Apostles , nor this Church , to do so now , and to express this Honor outwardly , which they are thus taught to conceive inwardly , and entertain in their hearts . 'T is an Absurdity sure too great , to fall upon the Church of England , thus absolutely to approve the Affection of Honor and Esteem towards the Sign of the Cross in Christians Hearts , as both a Christian Duty and an Apostolical Doctrin ; and then afterwards , to condemn the same Honor and Affection of the Soul , as Idolatry and Superstition , when 't is express'd Outwardly , either in Words or Gesture : For how is it possible , that what is Apostolical in the Heart , should , by being express'd outwardly , become Idolatrous ? This Doctrin is deliver'd more expresly by Mr. Montague , who in his Book call'd a New Gag , thus declares the Express Tenet of Catholics and of his own Church , p. 318. You say the Pictures of Christ , the Blessed Virgin and Saints , must not have Latria ; So We. You give them Dulia ; I quarrel not the Term , tho' I could . There is a Respect due unto , and Honor given Relatively to them . If this you call Dulia , We give it too . Let Practice and Doctrin go together , We agree . Nay he shews farther , 't is impossible to keep or set up the Pictures of Christ or his Saints , without having a REVERENCE and HONOR for them , in due kind . Hear him in his own words , in his Appeal to Caesar , c. 21. But it has distasted some ( says he ) that RESPECT and HONOR should be given unto them ( Images of Christ . ) Strange it should displease any , that can approve of any , be it but a Civil use of them . I cannot tell ; unless Men would ins●●ntly have them pull'd down in all places , demolish'd , stamp'd to powder , whosesoever , whatsoever , wheresoever . The setting of them up , suffering them to stand , using them for Ornaments , for helps of Memory , of Affection , of Rememoration , cannot be abstracted , to my Vnderstanding , from Reverence and Honor Simply , in due kind . Can a Man have the True Representation of his Prince , Parents , Patrons , &c. without Awe , Respect , Regard , Love , Reverence , moved by Aspect , and wrought in him ? I profess my Imperfection , or what they will call it , it is so with me . Unco impacto in Latrinas , in Gemonias , in malam Crucem , the Pictures , Statues , Paintings , Representations , of Christ , the Virgin , Apostles , Martyrs , Holy Men and Women ; unless the very having and preserving of them , do in some sort imply RESPECT , REGARD and HONOR done unto them , without offence justly given , without Scandal , or Inclination to Impiety . Then he urges the Truth of this Doctrin with the words of Junius . Junius , says he , was no Papist ; not in your opinion , I hope . He in his Animadversions upon Bellarmin de Imaginibus , says , Hoc nemo NOSTRVM dicit , non esse COLENDAS , nec ullo modo . Suo modo COLI probamus , velut Imagines ; at non religioso cultu , qui aut superstitiosus est , aut impius ; nec cùm aliorum scandalo , sive Cultus separatus sive conjunctus cum eorum Cultu intelligatur , quorum sunt Imagines . None of us say , that Images are no ways to be worship'd . We prove that they are to be worship'd in a way peculiar to them , as Images , but not with a Religious Worship , which is either Superstitious or Impious : Neither to the scandal of others , whether the Worship be understood the same , or different from that which is given to the things Represented by them . Thus this Learned Man delivers and defends the Doctrin of his Church in relation to the Images of Christ and his Saints , against the Arguments of some Informers , which he thinks to be no other than Puritans , and at best , some FVRIOVS ONES of his own Church , or SINGVLAR ILLUMINATES , as he terms them , ib. c. 20. And now what great difference here in this Point between the Two Churches ? The Council of Trent says , that Images of CHRIST , &c. ought to be set up in Churches , and DVE HONOR and VENERATION given them . The Church of England ( by Mr. Montague ) says , that the Images of Christ , the Blessed Virgin Mary and Saints , may be set up in Churches ; RESPECT and HONOR may be given them in Due kind ; The using them for helps of Memory , of Affection , of Rememoration cannot be abstracted from REVERENCE and HONOR simply , in DVE kind . The Catechism ad Parochos says , These Images are set up in Churches , ut Colantur , that they may be Honor'd or Worship'd ; that is , in due kind . The Protestants say ( by Junius ) None of us deny , but they may be Honor'd or Worship'd in their kind : Nay more , We prove , They are to be Worship'd in some manner , that is , as Images . Both Churches then agree , that Sacred Images may be set up in Churches ; that a Respect , Honor and Reverence is due to them , in their kind ; and both concur in terming this Honor or Reverence , Cultus or Worship , i. e. in it's kind , Suo modo . Junius expressing it due , velut Imagines , as they are Images , The Council of Trent , because they Represent Christ , &c. which is upon the very same reason and ground . Besides this , 't is agreed by both Churches , that this Reverence shewn to these things , is founded purely upon the Relation they have to God , and is terminated finally upon him . This as to the Church of Rome , appears from what is already quoted out of the Council of Trent : And as to the Church of England , from the words of Montagu above mention'd . And from Bishop Jewel , who ( in Rep. ag . Hard. ) says ; We Worship the Sacrament , the Word of God , we Worship all other things in such Religious wise to Christ belonging . And then afterwards giving the Reason : The Sacraments be Ador'd ( says ▪ he ) but the whole Honor resteth not in them , but is passed over from them to the things Signified . Which is the very Relative Honor mention'd so often by Catholic Divines . And this Divinity is found likewise in some Modorn Church-Men , as Dr. Stillingfleet , who ( in his Def. ag . T. G. pa. 600. ) says , that Altho' no Irrational or Inanimate Being be capable of that real Excellency , to deserve any Honor from us for it 's own sake ; yet such things may have a Relation to matters of so High a Nature , as to deserve a different Vsage and Regard from other things : And this afterwards he terms a Reverence , and , if I may so call it , a Religious Respect to Sacred Places and Things . In which words , tho' there 's some Mincing it ; yet it delivers in some manner the whole Doctrin of Catholics . The two Churches thus agreeing in the lawfulness of placing Images in Churches , and that an Honor , or Reverence , or even Worship in it's kind , is necessarily due to them , as they serve for helps to Piety ; of Affection or Rememoration , and have Relation to God. The Answerer of these leaves of Nubes Testium , lets fly at all this , like one of Montagu's FVRIOVS ONES , or SINGVLAR ILLVMINATES . He runs it down , under the Name of IMAGE-WORSHIP ; and is sure , with this very Word alone , so far to prevail upon the Ignorant and Vulgar at least ( with whom , by his loose arguing , he seems chiefly concern'd ) as to gain their Votes , in crying down the Papists for Idolaters ; and then his Business is done . Upon this strain he runs to the end of his Pamphlet , proving that Image-Worship is contrary to Fathers , to Antiquity , to Councils ; Image-Worship , Image-Worship , is all the Cant : But never tells , what this Image-Worship is ; and never reflects , that his own Church is for an Image-Worship too . Thus unhappily in the midst of Dust and Noise he manages the Controversie with the Papists , without ever Stating the Question , or declaring what the Papists hold , unbecoming a Scholar ; and multiplying many Needless Contentions , unbecoming a Christian . If he had examin'd the Doctrin of his own Church , and understood what Catholics teach , he would have soon discover'd the vanity of this Engagement ; and found , that after so much bustle upon this matter , there 's but little more in 't , besides Fighting about Names and Words ; and that however tolerable this may be in a School for a Logic Dispute , 't is unworthy of a Divine , who pretends to be a Preacher of the Gospel of Peace . 'T is already here made out to any unprejudic'd Considerer , that , according to the Doctrin of Protestants , especially those of the Church of England , 't is impossible to separate even the Historical Use of Holy Images , from a Respect and Reverence which necessarily follows them : Much less can they serve as Helps to Piety , for the exciting Devotion , and bringing to mind the Persons Represented , but they force from the beholders an Interior Love and Honor ; so that , as 't is impossible , for a Good Subject to have by him the Picture of his Prince and of a Traytor , without being differently affected in his Soul towards them , even in the very same manner , as he is to the Persons they Represent . So neither can a Faithful and Good Christian , behold the Pictures or other Representations of Christ , of Judas , of Mahomet , but his Soul will be differently mov'd towards them with Love , Respect , Honor , Veneration , on the one side ; with Indignation and Contempt on the other , as he finds himself affected to the Persons Represented by them . Thus far is acknowledg'd by Protestants , and may be gather'd from what is above cited out of Montagu and Junius . Catholics say the same , and so cannot be censur'd or condemn'd for this . What then is their Crime ? The Charge urg'd against them is , that they shew this same Honor and Veneration outwardly to these Holy Images of Christ , the Apostles , &c. They kiss them , pull off their Hats , they Bow , they Kneel , Burn Tapers , Incense , and Pray before them : This is the Crime , this the Image-Worship and Idolatry of the Catholics . And here , in their behalf , and to bring this Voluminous Controversie into a Narrower Compass , I must ask of the Answerer ; If it be lawful for Protestants and Catholics to have an INTERIOR Respect , Honor and Reverence for Holy Images , as appears evidently confess'd above ; how comes it to be so Vnlawful and Abominable for Catholics to signifie and express outwardly this same Respect , Honor and Reverence , which is so Commendable for all Christians , both Catholics and Protestants , to have Inwardly in their Souls ? Certainly , That Honor and Reverence , which in the Heart is Christian , cannot but be Christian in the Expression : And 't is very absur'd , to think a Duty can become Idolatry by professing it . If a Christian has a greater Reverence in his Soul , for the Book of the Holy Scriptures , than for any other Book whatsoever , may not he lawfully express this Reverence by Kissing it ? If the Woman in the Gospel , respects and Honors in her Heart the Hem of our Saviours Garment ; is the Kissing that Hem , any more Idolatry , than was that Affection and Reverence she had in her Soul towards it ? If a Christian has a Respect and Reverence even for the House of God , or Church , above other Houses , that are not Dedicated to his Service ; may not he shew this Respect , by Vncovering his Head ? If a Christian Honors the Communion-Table above other Prophane Tables ; may not this Honor be exteriourly profess'd , by setting Candles on it , and Plate , and adorning it with Hangings , and then Bowing to it , without a Crime ? If a Christian Reverences and Honors in his Heart the NAME of Jesus , or of the Cross , as the Church of England says the Apostles did ; can it be Idolatry outwardly to profess this same Honor , by Bowing or Bending the Knee ? And if he Respects the Sacrament , may not he shew this exteriorly , by receiving it Kneeling ? And if these Exterior Professions and Acknowledgments of the Interior Respect , Honor and Reverence that is due to these things , may be thus commendably shewn , by Kissing , Vncovering the Head , by Tapers , Ornaments , Bowing and Kneeling , without any Abomination in the sight of God , or just Scandal to our Neighbor ; why may not the like Interior Respect and Honor , acknowledg'd due to Holy Representations of Christ or his Saints , be profess'd outwardly by the same Visible Expressions of Respect and Reverence : Especially since what is done to all these things , is upon no other account , than the Relation they have to God , and as appertaining to him and his Service ? Neither let the Answerer think to take Sanctuary , in calling this Veneration shewn to Pictures and Images of Christ , a Worship , as an Image-Worship : For however this may work upon the Mobile and Unthinking Crowds , and fill their heads with a Notion of Idolatry ; yet every Man of Sense and unbiass'd Judgment knows , that this word Worship is equivocal , and that 't is not every thing is presently made an Idol of , which is any ways said to be Worship'd : As is shewn at large in The Pap. Misrep . 2. Part. c. 5 , 6. For 't is not only the Honor , which Catholics shew to Holy Images , is call'd a Worship ; but likewise that is a Worship , which Protestants give ; as is own'd by Junius above ; so that in this Sense Protestants may be said and prov'd to be Image-Worshipers too . The Reverence likewise shew'd by Protestants to the Sacrament , is call'd by Jewel ( Rep. to Hard. ) a Worship : The Honor given to the Bible he stiles a Worship . In the same way of speaking , the Respect to the Communion-Table may be term'd a Worship ; Bowing in Reverence to the Name of Jesus may be styl'd a Worship . And in this Sense , 't will not only be laid to the Church of England's charge , that she teaches and approves Image-Worship ; but likewise Bread Worship , Book-Worship , Table-Worship , and Name-Worship : And 't will not be very difficult , by the equivocation of this word , and the help of a little Pulpit-Sophistry , to paint out This Church as Black with Idolatry and Superstition , to the People , as she has done the Church of Rome . And it do's not at all reflect upon the Church of Rome , or her Doctrin , that some of her Divines call this Respect , Honor , Veneration or Worship paid to Holy Images a Religious Respect , or Honor , &c. For this is only a Dispute about a Word ; and let it be call'd by what Name they please , whether Honorary , Religious , or Divine , this alters not the Nature of the thing ; for 't is but the same thing , by whatsoever Name it be express'd . If some will have every Respect or Veneration , shewn to Holy Things , as to the Bible , the Sacrament , the Name of Jesus , for the Relation they have to God , to be call'd a Religious Worship , let 'em call it so in God's Name . And if others will have no Veneration or Worship to be Religious , but that which is directly and immediatly given to God ; let 'em have their way . These are fine Notions , and pretty Entertainments for School-debates ; but are no concern of our Religion or Conscience . For as long as 't is own'd , that there 's a Respect and Reverence due to such Holy things , as in some particular manner have relalation to God and his Service , and we only express this Respect outwardly , which interiorly we feel in our Souls ; let this be call'd an Honor , a Worship , an Adoring ; let it be said to be Honorary , Religious or Divine ; let it be deem'd Absolute or Relative , 't is equally alike to us ; since we are satisfied , the wrangling of the Learned about Names and Words , has no influence upon the Acts of our Souls ; and cannot make that to be Idolatrous , which in it self is not so . Here then may the Reader see , how stands this Controversie between Catholics and the Church of England Protestants . Both Churches acknowledge , that there 's an Honor , and Reverence that may be lawfully given to the Holy Images and Pictures of Christ . Both Churches express this Honor outwardly : Protestants , by using them in their Churches and Prayer-books , which ( as Montagu says ) cannot be abstracted from giving them Honor and Reverence . While Catholics go farther , and say , that 't is lawful to express this Honor and Reverence due to them , as they have relation to God , by Kissing them , pulling off the Hat , Bowing , Setting of Tapers , &c. before them , in the same manner , and with no more just occasion of Scandal , and no more breach of any Commandment , than the Church of England do's express the Veneration She shews to the Bible in Kissing it ; to the Church , by pulling off the Hat ; to the Name of Jesus , by Bowing ; to the Communion-Table , by setting Candles on it . Which being so many Actions intended to signifie the Interior Sentiment and Affection of the Soul ; there can certainly be no more of Idolatry in them , or Superstition , than there is in the Intention , or in the Act of the Soul ; the one being the same outwardly , what the other is inwardly . And , however some Divines and Leading Men of the Church of England , who are in love with wrangling , and thro' the Influence of an Unchristian Temper , seem to be afraid of a better Understanding coming amongst Christians , take pains to blow up this Controversie with some School and Empty Notions ; yet 't is not to be thought , there 's any great difference between the Two Churches , were they to Speak their Sense in a Cool and Moderate Temper , where they might be free from the Suggestions of such Hot and Fiery Spirits , who seem to be rather Men of State and Policy , than of Religion . For , can it be imagin'd , that the Church of England , who confesses , that the Holy Ghost himself , the Apostles , and Primitive Christians instructed by the Apostles , Honor'd the NAME of the Cross , and had an Honorable Esteem for the SIGN of the Cross , can be in good earnest against those , who express outwardly this Honor , which in it self is thus acknowledg'd of Divine Institution , and to have been the Doctrin of the Apostles ? If the Apostles too , as she owns above , did honor the NAME of the Cross by their Mouths and Words ; can she condemn those , who do the like with their Hands , their Heads or Knees ? If it be the Doctrin of the Holy Ghost , to have this Honor for the Name and Sign of the Cross in our Hearts ; and the Apostles , by the instinct of that Holy Spirit , did express this by their Words ; may not We do so too ? And if We may do this in Words , may not we do it in any other way of Expressing our Sense , which Nature has given us , and are answerable to Words ? Words are nothing more than for their Signification ; and if we signifie our thoughts by any other way , as by Signs , by any Motion , or Gesture of our Body ; these Actions being to express the same affection of our Soul , which we other ways do by Words , they are as Innocent as our Words ; and 't is impossible the Actions should be Idolatrous , whilst the Words are Orthodox : Since being taught by the Apostles , to have an Honor in our Hearts for the SIGN of the Cross , 't is the same thing before God and Men , whether we signifie this outwardly by our Tongues , or by our Lips , or by our Hands , or by our Heads , or by our Knees ; these being only so many different kinds of Speaking , to signifie one and the same sense of our hearts . And whilst they are so , there can be nothing justly charg'd upon any one of these ways of Expressing , but will as certainly fall upon all the rest ; for they being all upon the same intention and design , of shewing outwardly the Honor we are taught by the Apostles to have in our hearts , and this Honor thus severally express'd , being but one and the same , founded upon the Relation the Sign of the Cross has to Christ ; if it be a Religious Worship , when 't is signified by the Knee , 't is Religious too when signified by the Tongue , and alike Religious whilst 't is in the Heart ; if it be Idolatrous to express it by the Knee in bending , 't is Idolatrous too , to express it with the Tongue in Words ; and most of all Idolatrous , as it is in the Heart . Upon this Point turns the Greatest part of this Controversie , which of it self is very inconsiderable . But our Answerer takes little care to see how the Question stands ; He 's for exposing the Church of Rome , and as long as he has the knack of doing this by Ridiculing , and Drolling , what should he trouble himself with such impertinencies , as are stating the Question , and speaking to the Point ? He 's satisfied the word Image-worship will do the work , without much need of longer Proofs ; and therefore waving all such kind of Controversial Drudgery , he falls to the Historical part , in which , from the different account of Historians , the disagreement in Time and Place and other Circumstances , he easily fills all with Confusion and Uncertainty . A tedious work he makes about the second Council of Nice , and sets it out in such abusive Language , with so much contempt and scorn , that he seems , at his writing this Character , to have come fresh from a Billings-gate Lecture . Hear how he attacks that Venerable Synod : They were a Pack of Greeks ( says he pa. 38. ) that were neither the wisest , nor the honestest Men in the World. Then having undervalued the Proofs of that Council as Senseless and Ridiculous , he adds , pa. 39. Now you may judge , whether these were not rare Greek Wits . Yet we might forgive their want of Brains , if they had been Men of Integrity ; but they were dishonest too . In this manner do's he complement this great Synod with the Honorable Titles of Fools and Knaves . Certainly he must be a wise Man in his own conceit , who makes so bold with three hundred and fifty Fathers , besides the Popes Legates , and the Vicars of the Oriental Patriarchs . But I leave him in this Buffoonry , wishing him only much joy of his Admirable Talent in this kind . The Chief thing he urges against this Council , is their establishing , as he pretends , Superstitious Errors , the Worship or Adoration of Images , such as our Author judges to be nothing else than Idolatry ; in this , doing altogether like himself , who quarrels with every thing ; but how unlike the more Learned and Moderate Divines of his own Church , who vindicate this Council from all such imputations ! Mr. Thorndike freely confessing , that he must maintain as unquestionable , that the Council of Nice injoyns no Idolatry , Epil . 3. pa. 363. And Dr. Field affirming , that the Nicence Fathers mean nothing else by Adoration of Images , but embracing , kissing , and reverently using of them , and like to the Honor we do the Books of Holy Scripture . ( Of the Church l. 3. c. 36. ) Thus do these Eminent Men deliver their Sense of this Council and it's Doctrin , which our Author has thought fit to render so Ridiculous to the World. He catches at Words , and without Examining or Understanding them , makes Idolatry and Superstition of the most Orthodox and Christian Doctrin : And this I look upon the occasion of his letting flie so furiously at this Venerable Synod , and of all his Rallery against it . But I proceed to consider his other Arguments . The principal thing he insists on , and which runs thro' his whole Pamphlet , is , that we cannot make it appear , even as a thing probable , that Images were so much as set up in Churches in the Primitive Times ; and upon this Practice , now so common in the Church of Rome , he presses her with the Guilt of Innovation . An Excellent Argument , well becoming a Leader of the People ! But this is the Motive of Reforming . And do not some other Reformers , upon the same grounds , prove the use of Organs , in the Divine Service , to be an Innovation ; since it cannot be made appear , even as probable , that there were any such things known to the Primitive Christians of the first three or four hundred years ? And do not others , still treading over the same steps , make the use of Cathedrals and Churches , of Deanries and Prebendaries , an Innovation in Christianity ; since in the Primitive times there were no such things heard ●f ? After this rate some Men are pleas'd to argue ; and at this pace the Reformation may go on improving every day , till there 's nothing of Christianity left , if such Principles and Reasons of some Church of England Reformers are but follow'd , as Just and Convincing . But these can have no authority , but with some Weak and Passionate Men. Others , who weigh things duely , know that the Circumstances of the Primitive Christians , their being under Severe Persecution , their living and conversing in the middle of Pagans and Jews , &c. did make many things inconvenient and unseasonable at that time , especially such as related to the Solemnity and Order of the Church , which otherwise were Good and Apostolical . This Mr. Montagu , a Wise and Learned Man , throughly consider'd ; and particularly in relation to Images , which , he says , in the first Ages were but few or none in publick , not because they were then Unlawful , or contrary to the Doctrin of the Apostles ; but because they were inconvenient in those times of Persecution and Paganism . I 'll here set down his own words to satisfie the Answerer , and to let him see the difference between the Spirit of Peace and Moderation , and that of Bitterness and Wrangling . Thus then that Worthy Divine argues in his Appeal to Caesar , c. 23. As the Ancient Fathers of the Primitive Times had very few or no Churches at all , at least of Note , Dignity or of Receipt , because they liv'd in Times of fierce Persecution , and were seldom , or Few of them Stationary , but compell'd subinde mutare sedes ; so had they very few , I grant , or no Pictures at all in public use amongst them , not so much as for Ornament sake . And the reason was , because they lived continually amongst Pagans , and were themselves , for the most part , such as had abandon'd and come over from Paganism unto Christ ; that were bred in , brought up in , inur'd to , and fast setled unto Idolatry in Image-worship . Therefore they spoke against them with some tartness and inveighing sort , lest haply by conversing with , or neighboring upon Pagans , or thro' former use of being mis-led by those Pagans , the Novel and tender Shoots of Christianity might receive hurt , and learn to worship Idols , as those Pagans did . In which words this Author plainly declares , that tho' there was not the public use of Images in the first Ages ; yet the admittance of them afterwards into Churches was no Innovation , as our Answerer pretends ; but the practising of a thing , which in all the precedent Ages had been just and lawful , but not expedient , for the reasons here assign'd by him . Which thing the same Author has thus clearly deliver'd in the foregoing Chapter , where speaking of the use of Images : Before St. Gregory , says he , I know no such confest employment for them . He was the first that gave such public approbation unto them DECLARATORILY , tho' it was TRVE DOCTRIN IN IT SELF , before he ever profess'd it such . Can any thing be more clearly express'd ? Is it not evidently here acknowledg●d by a Church of England Divine , that the Use of Images , as approv'd and allow'd by Pope Gregory , who was for giving Reverence and Respect unto them , as this Author confesses in the same Chapter , was a True Doctrin in it self ; tho' it was never professedly declar'd before this time ? And yet our Answerer , unacquainted it seems with the Doctrin of his own Church , and with the Circumstances of the Primitive Church , comes here with the full Cry of Innovation , giving the World and me a needless trouble of stating this Controversie , which has been so long ago decided , as to this Point , by a Divine of his own Church . But alas , some Men , who have for a long time from their Castle of Priviledge , with a Noisy , but Empty Controversie , peevishly declaim'd against all sorts of Adversaries ; and there boastingly triumph'd , where they know no body dar'd contradict or question them , vainly think they may do the like in Print , and that they may as easily impose upon all Readers , as upon their Hearers . And I desire our Answerer to consider , how far he is here concern'd , who thus dares to venture abroad , with these Raw and Vnconnected Notions . But the Answerer is resolv'd however , to convince his Reader of the Unlawfulness of Images ; and in order to this tells him , as before , that the Antient Heretics were Friends to Images . I wont ask here ; Why then do's the Church of England use them in her Places of Worship ? But , I 'll tell him in his own Words , that this is a Silly Artifice ; and that every thing is not to be condemn'd , which was us'd by such a sort of People . He knows , I hope , that the Antient Heretics us'd the Bible too , as likewise Preaching and Churches , and yet sure all these are not to be rejected upon this score . I have here shew'd him already out of his own Authors , who first declaratorily establish'd the use of Holy Images , giving Reverence and Respect unto them ; and that this was a True Doctrin in it self , before he ever profess'd it : And what matter then , if some Heretics admitted of the same , who are wont to abuse even the best of things , as the Answerer says , the Gnostics did , pa. 57. who rankt Christ's Image with those of Pythagoras , Plato and Aristotle . As to what he says before , pag. 53. that Pope Gregory I. and II. contradict each other in this Point , he would do well to explicate this fuller in his next ; for Pope Gregory II. is no more for Adoration of Images , than Gregory I. as appears in that Letter of his to Leo Isaurus cited in Nubes Testium , pa. 183. Where writing to the Emperor : You charge us , says he , with the Adoration of Stones , and Walls , and Pictures . But 't is not so as you affirm , O Emperor ! What we do is only to refresh our Memory , to raise our minds to Heaven , — and not , as you urge , to Worship them as Gods ; no , God forbid , we place no hope in them . How then do's he contradict Gregory I. while he 's no more for Worshiping Images than he was ? But he that has Forehead enough to charge me with a Notion of Invocating of Images , as he do's , pa. 66. when I have no such Word or Hint , must not be call'd to an account for every thing he says . I have little more to consider in this Letter of the Answerer , besides his great Kindness and Affection to the Heathens , who , with his Good Friend Dr. Stillingfleet , is so favorable to them , as in a manner to excuse them from Idolatry , so the better to fix this Crime upon the Papists : Tho' the Doctrin of the Papists , in this Point , is so like what the Church of England teaches , that ( as is shewn above ) there 's little difference betwixt them , besides about School Terms and Words . The World knows the good understanding there was between Sultan Solyman and Martin Luther , and how friendly the Followers of this New Prophet were taught to be to the Turks ; but why our English Reformers upon Martin Luther should be at this day so kind to the Heathens , must be left to every one to guess . The Answerer assures the Person of Quality , pa. 11. to whom he writes , that to charge the Heathens with Worshiping Stocks and Stones as Gods , is to Misrepresent them . And yet how many times has this very thing been instill'd into the Peoples Heads , as True of the Papists , which now , as we are inform'd , is a Misrepresentation , when affirm'd of the Pagans ? Are not the Pagans here deeply indebted to these Church of England Men , in their owning them to be Misrepresented , whilst the same Abomination is so liberally charg'd upon the Papists , and yet no Misrepresentation there , if you 'l believe ' em ? This is to make the Papists worse than Heathens ; and without either Respect to Duty or Good manners , to advance even now that Plot-Divinity , which was Preach'd by a Doctor before the House of Commons , April 11. 1679. Who setting out Popery in such colors , as might be most effectual to excite that Assembly to the Drawing of Blood , after several Dreadful Characters , at last pa. 30. thus concludes ; Nay , says he , it is a Religion , that will engage you in a more Unnatural Idolatry , than ever the Pagans were guilty of . Is not this a rare Character of one Christian from another ? Nay from Church of England Christians too , such who pretend to so much Charity and Moderation above their Neighbors ; and yet to cast forth so much Gall and Venom , that could be expected from none , but another Julian , or a Lucian ? But I take no advantage here , I consider this was deliver'd in a time of an Epidemical Madness ; and what wonder , if the Pulpits did not escape the Contagion ? But why at this time of the day should this Lecture be read to the People ? Is not the Plot out of some People's heads yet ? Is the Infection so lasting ? But what shall we say ; the Enclosure of some Men's Religion , is only to be against Popery . They raise a monstrous Notion in their own Brains ; and while they expose this to the People , they make the Innocent suffer for their Delusion . They 'l joyn hands with the Turk or the Pagan , so they can but make a Devil of the Papist . And in this some of their Furioso's are so blindly rash , that they care not how Antichristian they make their own Church , so they can but set out the Papists for Idolaters . For here I desire any serious Man to consider , if the Papists were thus really Idolaters , as bad or worse than the Heathens , as these Men suggest , what Advantage would this be to the Church of England ? What kind of Church must the Church of England be , who has no Ordination , Succession , or Authority of Preaching , but what she has receiv'd from these Idolaters ? What kind of Church must she be , whilst she owns her self and These Idolaters to be Parts of the same Church ? What kind of Church must she be , whilst she acknowledges , that all her Members for a Thousand Years before Henry 8. were in Communion with these Idolaters ; and in all External Rites and Worship , were comprehended in the Papacy ? Must not she have been a very Dissembling and Adulterous Church ; whilst believing internally the True and Pure Faith of Christ , she did for so many years externally practise all the supposed Superstitions and Idolatries of the Church of Rome , which she judg'd to be most Wicked and Damnable ? Is not this an admirable Character of a Pretended Church of Christ , to have play'd the Hypocrit for so many Ages , committing Adultery with the Supposed Whore of Babylon , and partaking in all her pretended Abominations ? What greater Blow could an Enemy give to the Church of England , than some of her Divines do thus with their own hands , who , like Spiritual Janizaries , destroy their own Mother Church of which they are Members ? For is it not evident , that whilst they endeavor to make the Church of Rome guilty of Idolatry , they prove their own Church for so many years to have been Idolatrous , to have been a Dissembling Church , a Church denying Christ and his Religion , a Church for Temporal Respects committing many Idolatries and Superstitions , and consequently , no Church at all ? And what more Forcible Argument need any Dissenters to justifie their Separation from the Church of England ? For since the greatest part of those things upon which the Dissent is founded , are such as have been instituted and commanded by the Church of Rome , why shou'd they receive them from the Church of England , whilst these same Church-Guides , who press the Observance , take so much pains to prove those from whom they receiv'd them , to be Idolaters , and a sort of Christians worse than Heathens ? What reason has any Man to joyn in such a Form of Worship and Divine Service , when he is assur'd , that Those from whom the greatest Part is borrow'd , are Idolaters ? Why should any be tied to such Ceremonies , if those that instituted them were Idolaters ? 'T is but Rational for every Man to think , that if the Papists are so Stupid , so Sottish , so Ridiculous , such Idolaters , so worse than Heathens , as every little Church-Divine is pleas'd to render them , that the Church of England , who retains so much of their Service and Ceremonies , must of necessity be so far like them in Sottishness , Ridiculosity , Idolatry and Heathenism ; and the only way to become a Pure Christian , must be to shake off , even that which She has retain'd . This is a very Obvious reasoning ; and I don't question , has so powerfully wrought upon the minds of Infinite Numbers , and widen'd the Separation to that degree , that the very Crime of the Church of England in her Bitter and Vnjust Invectives against the Papists , has by a just hand of God prov'd her Punishment ; whilst her endeavors to alienate the Peoples minds from Popery , has embitter'd them even against her self , and been so fatal to her , that by the same means she has made People no Papists , she has made them Dissenters from her own Communion , and rais'd to her self almost as many Enemies , as she inteded against the Church of Rome . Our Answerer , has lent a helping hand in this Point ; I do not mean here by his Peevish , Scandalous Pulpit Invectives ; but in this his pretended Answer to this Part of Nubes Testium ; whilst he has scarce any one Argument , but what is levell'd as much against his own Church ( if that be really his , which he pretends ) as against the Papists : Tho' in reality , to any Intelligent Reader , there is but very little against either : The whole being made up of Vulgar Sophisms , Wordy Disputes , and Arguing at Rovers : But the Author is to be excus'd ; the Whole is nothing more than a Letter : And every body knows , that a Letter , however proper it may be to the Person , to whom 't is directed , is many times very Absurd , when 't is divulg'd and made Common ; wee 'l excuse therefore the Writer , but really he is to blame that Publish'd it . FINIS .