The papist represented, and not misrepresented being in answer to the first sheet of the second part of the Papist misrepresented and represented : and for a further vindication of the catechism truly representing the doctrine and practices of the Church of Rome. Williams, John, 1636?-1709. 1687 Approx. 22 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 9 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-12 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A66405 Wing W2713 ESTC R2047 12498092 ocm 12498092 62580 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A66405) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 62580) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 951:82) The papist represented, and not misrepresented being in answer to the first sheet of the second part of the Papist misrepresented and represented : and for a further vindication of the catechism truly representing the doctrine and practices of the Church of Rome. Williams, John, 1636?-1709. [2], 14 p. Printed for Ric. Chiswell ..., London : 1687. Reproduction of original in Huntington Library. Attributed to John Williams. cf. BM. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. 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Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Gother, John, d. 1704. -- Papist misrepresented and represented. Catholic Church -- Doctrines. Catholic Church -- Liturgy. Idols and images -- Worship. 2005-01 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2005-03 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-04 Emma (Leeson) Huber Sampled and proofread 2005-04 Emma (Leeson) Huber Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-10 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE Papist Represented , AND NOT MISREPRESENTED ; BEING In ANSWER to the FIRST SHEET of the Second Part of the PAPIST Misrepresented and Represented . And for a further VINDICATION of the CATECHISM truly Representing the Doctrine and Practices of the Church of Rome . LICENSED , December 18. 1686. LONDON : Printed for Ric. Chiswell , at the Rose and Crown in St. Paul's Church-yard , MDCLXXXVII . THE PAPIST REPRESENTED , And Not Misrepresented , &c. AFter a Cause hath been managed to so plain a Disadvantage , that there hath been no place left , and no reasonable care taken for its defence , He must have a good Measure of assurance in himself , and presume too much upon the weakness or good Nature , the ignorance or drowsiness of the Age he lives in , that before the Controversie is cold , shall venture the same again into the World , without offering at any shew of a New Argument , to support and vindicate the Old. And yet this is the case of the Author of the Second Part of the Papist Misreprented and Represented ; who in the single Chapter newly published , of the Veneration shown to Images , hath in substance and contrivance transcribed what was wrote upon the same Subject in the First Part , and that with as much Liberty and Confidence , as if there had never been such Books in the World , as the Doctrines and Practices of the Church of Rome , &c. And An Answer to Papists protesting against Protestant Popery ; that had taken this Argument to task , and shew'd the weakness and the falshood of it . When I first cast my Eye upon this Sheet , and observed how formally he had drawn up the Argument in the beginning , I thought now , if ever , he would state the Case , and argue closely upon it ; and that he that complains so much of the Mists and Confusion raised from the disagreeing Opinions of Divines amongst themselves , and the Infamy cast upon the Doctrine and Practice about Images in their Church , by letting loose the School-debates amongst the Multitude ; would have been so kind to the World , as to shew us what we are to trust to , and what those once famous Directors of Controversie and Conscience ( the School-men ) but now it seems dangerous Enemies to the Peace and Propagation of their Religion , do hold to the Detriment and Disadvantage of it . But instead of that , we have a Character of an Image-worshipper of his own making , setforth with a various mixture of Similitudes and Resemblances , which after he hath trimm'd up in somewhat a new Fashion , he hopes may pass with better Authority , and be received with greater Respect than whatsoever these abovesaid wrangling Disputants , attended with all their Speculative Scruples ( to use his words ) can propose . But tho' he thinks fit thus to desert the Schools ; yet having some Reverence for Them , and more for Truth , I shall gently take him by the Hand , and from the Mists and Confusion of a Declamatory Discourse , turn him back to the old way of Argument , and see if we can better understand one another , and the Cause we are at present concern'd in . In order to which , I shall shew , 1. What is meant by an Image . 2. What Worship is given , and to be given to an Image in the Church of Rome . 3. That the Catechism he opposeth , hath given no other account of their Doctrine and Practice in this matter , than is conformable to it . An Image ( in the Ecclesiastical sense ) is an external and visible Representation of some Divine or Glorified Being and Object , ( such as God , the Blessed Trinity , Christ , Angels and Saints ) set up for the receiving Religious Honour and Worship . So that whatever things do not Represent , or are not intended to Represent a Divine or Glorified Object ; or that are not set up to receive Religious Worship , or have not Religious Worship given to them , are not concerned in the Dispute . And of this kind thus Excluded , are , 1. All visible signs and marks of Distinction ; Such ( to use his Instances ) are a Lion and Vnicorn when set up in a place to intimate that there the King is owned as Supreme . And such may a Cross be ( where there is occasion ) when set up , suppose in or upon a Christian Church , to distinguish it from a Turkish Mosque . But why Crosses or the like should therefore be so necessary , that those that allow them not ( as well where this reason is not , as where it is ) should be deemed to allow of nothing to shew they are Christians , is an inference of our Authors , but what I confess is past my understanding . 2. Hereby are Excluded all those Effigies and Pictures that are for Ornament , or that serve to testify the Honour and Respect we bear to the Persons to whom they have a resemblance . And of this kind are the Pictures of Moses and Aaron , Queen Elizabeth , and King Charles the first of Blessed memory , which are in some of our Churches ; and those of Christ and the Apostles , which are retained in others . 3. Hereby are also Excluded all Historical signs , that are intended for the preservation of the memory of Good and Holy Persons ; or that occasionally may either excite in us devout thoughts and affections , or that may serve for instruction ( if that can be ) : For how such do instruct like the Bible , when the Bible can instruct those that are before ignorant of the Mysteries of our Religion ; but a Picture or Image cannot instruct without somewhat else to instruct before or with it ; Or how an Image or Cross is upon this consideration a part of Gods Holy Word , without any difference from that Chapter of the Bible which treats of the same , except the different fashion of the strokes , and manner of laying on the Ink ; are Doctrines that become a member of that Church , which for the better Edification of the People , whilst it exposes Images to them , keeps the Bible from them . 4. Of this sort are those things which have an eminent relation to God and his Service , to which for that reason a certain reverence and suitable respect is more or less due . And so its lawful and decent to be uncovered at reading the Bible , and the hearing it expounded ; and to kiss it in taking an Oath , as a token of the reverence and the regard we have for it . And this we do , not because in the Bible the strokes of the Ink are so ordered and joyn'd in the Paper , that they signifie and Represent the Doctrine and Passion of Christ , ( a description that rather becomes a Book of Emblems and Hieroglyphicks , than of Divine Doctrine ) not because I say it Represents ( as he mistakes ) but as it contains the great Articles of our Faith , &c. These are things which the Controversie is not at all concerned in ( being either no visible Representations of Divine or Glorified Beings , or not set up for receiving Religious Honour and Worship ) . And yet to these are all the Resemblances used by our Author , to be refer'd ; and who with these , shuts up the whole Controversie , as if there was no other use of Images in the Church of Rome , than what the Pictures of Queen Elizabeth , or Moses and Aaron serve for in ours ; and that the Honour and Reverence they give to them , is no more than the reverence we give to the Bible : For thus he concludes , Let Divines wrangle [ meaning their own ] to the Worlds end , and dispute whether this Honour , this Reverence and respect shewn to the Bible , to a Preachers Sermon , to Pictures or Images , be the same , or distinct from what is given to the things represented ; whether it terminates on them absolutely after an inferior manner , or only relatively , and so forth . This they may go on with , &c. but for his part , he is little concerned . Where he supposeth two things , ( 1 ) That it 's a Controversie amongst them , whether the Honour and Reverence they give to Consecrated Images and Pictures , be other than what is shewn to the Bible , or a Preachers Sermon : And ( 2 ) that the Controversie among their Divines about the Worship given to them , whether Absolute or Negative , is of little concernment ; whereas the former ( as shall presently be shew'd ) neither is nor can be a Controversie among them upon their principles . And the latter is a Controversie of that importance , that each Side charges the other with no worse a consequence of their Principle , than Idolatry . As to the former part of the description I have given of an Image ( viz. That it 's a visible representation of a Divine or Glorified Being ) there is no dispute ; but the dispute will be , about the latter part [ viz. that it 's set up for the receiving of Religious Honour and Worship . ] For as our Author has avoided the word Worship all along , even to the omission of a Clause in what he quotes from the Council of Trent [ Propter quam sint colendoe ] so he seems resolved not to admit of it , or even so much as the external actions belonging to it . For so he goes on . This then is what he [ the Papist Represented ] do's as to Sacred Images ; and though his Adversaries , by calling this worshipping , adoring , and falling down to Images , raise a Notion of Idolatry , &c. So that it seems it is only a Fiction of their Adversaries , what they call so , but which they neither do in Fact , nor so much as in word , call by those Names of Worshipping , Adoring , and falling down to Images . But if I prove that they use the words by which those things are understood , that they use such Actions and Postures as are conformable to those words , and that they apply those Actions and Postures to the Images , and that the Images are to be had and retained in Churches for that end ; I think I shall have by that time done whatever is necessary to make good the abovesaid Description of an Image , and of what is infer'd from it . As to the words , there are three used by themselves in this Matter , viz. Honor , Veneratio , Cultus . Which last I know not how otherwise to render , as distinct from the two former , than by Worship ; and so I find it rendred by one of themselves . And that it 's so to be understood , is evident from the 2d Council of Nice , ( which that of Trent in the same place appeals and approves to ) where we find an Anathema against those 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that do not worship the Holy and Venerable Images : And so Pope Adrian , in his Epistle to that Synod , saith of his own practice , I adore the Images , &c. And that this is the Doctrine of both the one and the other Council , I appeal to many of their own Authors , ( which I shall produce if there be occasion ) who say , that Images are to be adored : And Suarez for all saith , that it's de Fide Imagines esse adorandas , That it 's a Matter of Faith that Images are to be adored . But as the Words , so the Postures shew it , it being an unhappy oversight of our Author's , who saith , That falling down to Images , is a Fiction of their Adversaries ; when the Council of Trent is so express in it , that by the Images which we kiss , and before which we uncover our Heads , and fall down , we do adore Christ , &c. But here our Author it 's like hath a reserve : for will he say , the Thing that our Adversaries charge us with , is falling down to Images ? but that I deny , for we only fall down before the Images , as the Council saith , but do not fall down to them . Indeed if this be his Refuge , it 's fairly argued : but if this be his Sense , then what becomes of that other part of the Decree of the same Council , which requires , That due Honour and Veneration be given to them , [ eis impertiendam ] ? And which ought to be kept in Churches , and are there set up that they may be worshipped , as saith their Catechism . ad Paroc . But this will be further confirm'd , when , 3. I have shewed , that the Catechism he now opposeth , hath given no other account of the Doctrine and Practice of the Church of Rome about Images , than is conformable to it . Against this , for the present , our Author objects nothing but the Phrase therein used of praying to Images . And here he runs again to his Resemblances , to the Monument , the Statues upon the Exchange , and the Giants at Guild-hall ; to Rhetorical Exclamations , and Expostulations , with much piquantry against the poor Six-peny Catechism : But what is the haste to coast thus up and down the Town , to Westminster , to the Exchange , to Wapping and Spittle-fields , and where not ? I perceive it will be too great a Task to follow him who sets no bounds to himself ; and therefore to shorten the way , I shall ' ene lay my self open to him , and confess the Charge I exhibited against them of praying to Images . To prove which before , our Author saith I made use of this Argument , viz. Prayer is to the Object to which the Veneration is to be given ; but the Veneration is to be given to the Image , as Representing , and so is the Prayer . And here he crys out Sophistry , and triumphs over it for near half a Page together . But is this Argument mine , or was it produced to prove the Papists pray to Images ? Indeed I had argued that if they do not pray to Images , Why are the Prayers used at the Consecration of them ? To what end are the Pilgrimages to them ? Why do they direct their Prayers to them ? But to this there is not a word of Answer , when in reason it ought to be expected , whereas he takes much pains to confute that which never was asserted . Had the Argument been ( as he supposeth ) to prove , that if they give Veneration to Images , they therefore pray to them ; he ought to have been so ingenuous , as to remember , that the Catechism supposeth that the Terms Veneration and Worship , are in this case much one and the same ; and that the Church of Rome doth Worship as well as Venerate Images ( which now I have shewed my Reasons for ) : And this the line immediately before would have instructed him in . And if so , the Argument has so much Truth in it , that it will cost him some more time and thoughts to disprove . But to what shall I impute it , whether to oversight , or Sophistry , when he places the Argument upon a wrong foot , and from a Proof , that praying to Images in the Catechism , was to Images as Representing , doth translate it to a Proof of praying to Images because they venerate them . I am confident the Controvertists of Spittle-fields and Wapping , as little as I know them ( the Reader will pardon the Phrase for it 's his own ) would not have argued more inconsequently , and those that have but stepp'd over the Vniversity-Threshold , ( to use his words ) would have call'd it an arguing à baculo ad Angulum : when what I say respects the Object , and he transfers it to the Act. But this it is to run impetuously , with much Fancy , and little Consideration , into the field of Disputation . For take the Argument as it lies , and I think it 's fair and plain . For , if the Proposition is true , that the Worship ( not Honour alone , that 's his Insertion ) given to Images , is to the Persons represented ; then so is all depending upon it . For what is the Image , but the Image of the Person represented ? What do they honour , venerate , and kiss ? before what do they fall down ? to what do they offer Incense , but the Image of the Person represented ? And then , to what do they pray , but to the Image of the Person represented ? For where the Veneration , the Salutation , the Prostration , and the Oblation are , there is also the Prayer . I must confess this way of arguing may prove too much for him ; but that I cannot help , be it to them that lay down the Premises from whence the Conclusion is inferr'd . But because he doth not like Consequences and Inferences ( unless they are of his own making ) I shall first of all put him in mind , that it has been proved by one , whom he should in reason be acquainted with , that To , Before , and In presence of a Representative Object , as representing , are the very same . And to the solid Proof which that learned Author has given of it , I shall add , that not only do the Latins use those Phrases alike in that case , and so what in Pliny is , Imagini supplicare , is in Arnobius , ad Imaginem ; but that these words are thus promiscuously used also in the Church of Rome it self : So in the Decree of the Council of Trent , before cited , what in one line is , iis impertiendam , to the Images , is in another , coram iis , before them . And that I may not be without some sufficient Proof , we have our Author himself thus speaking to and fro ; for sometimes it 's a Veneration before Images , Page 4. sometimes a Veneration to them , Pag. 3 , & 5. And why I may not be allowed to use these words indifferently , that are indifferently used by them : Or , why To in praying to Images , should be worse than To in a Veneration given to them , I know not ; unless what 's right in them is wrong in me ? But this praying to Images is a thing not to be born , it 's to leave the Papists , their Credit , and their Doctrine to the favour and mercy of — But who is to be blamed for this ? Why do they then in Terms pray to the Cross and the Veronica , & c ? Why do they tell us of a Divine Presence , that is , if not in them , yet with them , as Tursellinus affirms of that at Lorreto ? Why do they write whole Books of the Miracles wrought by the Virgin Mary , and others Saints by their Images ? Why do they suffer Persons to go long and tedious Pilgrimages to them ? &c. Certainly it is as innocent for us to say , they give Worship and pray to Images , as for them to say , and to do it . But because I am willing to conclude , I shall , in confirmation of what I have said , transcribe an old Form of Abjuration impos'd upon the Lollards , which is this ; I do swear to God , and to all his Seynts , upon this Holy Gospel ; and fro this day forward I shall worship Images with PRAYING AND OFFERING TO THEM , in the Worschop of the Seynts that they be made after . So that if I have erred , I have err'd with a Council , with their Breviaries , with the Decrees and Practice of their Church , and with approved Authors of their own . And if they stand right and justified in it , I hope I may be acquitted . Considering especially that after all that this Gentleman , ( who has bore thus hard upon me , and used such a sort of Wit , and such Phrases and Modes of Speech , as are more fit for a Stage , than a Scholar and Divine ) has transgress'd in the same way , and call'd our kneeling at the Lord's Supper , a kneeling to the Elements , or ( as he calls it ) to the Sacramental Figure , pag. 5. whereas he very well knows , or ought to have known , for the sake of a Passage , in the Preface to the First Part of The Papist Represented and Misrepresented , ( if the Author be the same ) that the same Church which hath required we should receive the Sacrament Kneeling , hath also declared , that no Adoration is intended , or ought to be done , to the Sacramental Bread and Wine there bodily received . The Kneeling to , supposeth an Object of Adoration before us , and is an Act of Worship ; but the Kneeling when , is no more than a devout posture of receiving it ; and which our Church saith , is a signification of an humble and grateful acknowledgment of the Benefits of Christ therein given to all worthy Receivers . So that with as much Truth and Reason might he have affirmed , we Kneel to the Minister from whose hands we receive the Elements , as to the Elements we receive from him . Now if in conclusion I should return upon him the same lavish Rhetorick ( not to call it worse ) for his Misrepresentation of our Church , which he has treated me with , for what he can never be able to prove , is a Misrepresentation of theirs , I am sensible I should offend against the Laws of good Manners , and of the best Religion in the World. And here I should take my leave of him , but that this day he sends me a Second Challenge , which as little as I love Disputes , I shall yet accept of ; and do not question ( but through God's assistance ) I shall give him such Satisfaction as becomes a Christian , a lover of Truth , Peace , and Charity . FINIS . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A66405-e120 Concil . Trid. Sess. 25. & Catechis . ad Paroc . S.C. Answ. to Dr. Pierce , c. 14. Actio . 1. Suar. in 3. p. q. 25. Disp. 54. §. 1. An Answer to the Papists protesting , &c. pag. 81 , &c. Lauret . Hist. Praef. Mirac . 120. Consrat . 7. dolor . Duad 1619. Spelman Concil . To. 2. p. 655.