Plain English in a familiar conference betwixt three friends, Rusticus, Civis, and Veridicus, concerning the deadness of our markets : offer'd as an expedient to serious consideration, and for the general good of gentry and commons. Culpeper, Thomas, Sir, 1626-1697. 1673 Approx. 52 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 13 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2003-11 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A35409 Wing C7561 ESTC R24899 08647984 ocm 08647984 41527 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A35409) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 41527) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1254:13) Plain English in a familiar conference betwixt three friends, Rusticus, Civis, and Veridicus, concerning the deadness of our markets : offer'd as an expedient to serious consideration, and for the general good of gentry and commons. Culpeper, Thomas, Sir, 1626-1697. 24 p. Printed by T.J. and are to be sold by Henry Million, London : 1673. Attribured to Thomas Culpeper--NUC pre-1956 imprints. Errata: p. 24. Reproduction of original in the Huntington Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. 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Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Interest -- Great Britain. Great Britain -- Economic conditions. 2003-07 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2003-07 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2003-08 Mona Logarbo Sampled and proofread 2003-08 Mona Logarbo Text and markup reviewed and edited 2003-10 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion Plain English , IN A FAMILIAR CONFERENCE Betwixt three Friends , RUSTICUS , CIVIS , AND VERIDICUS , Concerning the Deadness OF OUR MARKETS . Offer'd as an Expedient to serious Consideration , and for the general good of Gentry and Commons . LONDON , Printed by T. I. and are to be sold by Henry Million at the Bible in Fleet street , 1673. Plain English , In a Familiar CONFERENCE , &c. C. VVElcome Gentlemen , In troath I have long'd for another Meeting in pursuance of our late Discourse , it hath so run in my Mind ever since , I mean the Reducing of Interest : Upon my Life , ' twilll send all our Widows and Orphans a begging together , R. Must our Policy then be wholly squar'd to the Advantage of those whom you please to call Widows and Orphans ? Or admitting onely such concern'd , Would you not have them buy and sell by the same Measure that others do ? V. Indeed you might with the same Reason propose ▪ That Widows Lands should be Lett for double it 's worth ; all Necessaries sold to Orphans at half the Market-price ; and that they might be liable to no publick Charges . C. You make a Jest of it , but 't is a Case that deserves rather your Pity . V. We read of Depopulations by Sheep more savage than Wolves , and which devour whole Hamlets : Are not some of your Widows and Orphans akin to those innocent Creatures ? C. How uncharitably you talk ! V. But consider it seriously ; Are there veryer Drones , nay Cankers , in the Common-wealth , than most of those that pass under that Character ? They possess goodly Revenues , clog'd with no publick Ch●●ge or Service , and brought to their Hands without Trouble , or so much as Thought ; which they commonly spend in Forraign Superfluity ; and so become the Ring-leaders of that Excess and Sloath , now so much complained of . C. You do not , I hope , take all our Widows and Orphans for such as you here describe . V. God forbid : There are , I grant , many of them Exemplary for their Sobriety and Vertue : But , as Rusticus said , t will not follow that the Common-wealth it self must truckle to such a Handful in comparison . C. Surely that Tribe is not so small as you fancy : And you will allow them very deserving , at least of publick Compassion . V. If you would look upon Usury with both your Eyes at once , and count , as well the real Widows and Orphans that now groan under it , you would find , that perhaps it makes three Holes for one it mends : In plain English , to swell the superfluous In-come of a few , many Orphans are daily cast up to the wide World ; Such inequality on all sides attending an inconvenient Rate of Interest . C. I perceive all your Cry is against Usury , as if that were now our onely Grievance : But you may remember , at our last Meeting I offered to name divers common Abuses , which have possibly hurt us more than Usury , and would therefore be principally reoress'd . V. Well , I must lay Odds before-hand , they are but of the same nature with those I then mentioned , viz. Effects and Symptoms , mistaken for Causes . C. To me there 's nothing clearer , than that the Lazyness of our Poor , Insolence of Servants , and excessive Wages , are now our principal Grievances . R. Our Gentry then , it seems , may hope at length to be quiet : But to say the truth , 't is high time ; for they are in a fair way to reform themselves , as Tradesmen may shortly feel . V. For my part , I ever took it , that the Noyse of our Excess was but like my Ladies laying all the blame upon poor Button . C. Nay I must still condemn many of our Gentry for squandring their Estates , and Running in debt as they do . R. I protest I can look ten miles round , and scarce spy a Prodigal amongst them : But it seems , T is the Art of scolding to cry Whore first . V. In our most thriving times , to my knowledge , we had twice as may real Unthrifts as now , and not half the good Husbands ; T is not with us then , to be sure , that Luxury now keeps its Court. And therefore our Censors may do well , if they please , to reflect a little homewards . C. But divers may formerly have transgrest in that kind , who would now Redeem their Errour , by making a Vertue of Necessity , when for them perhaps , it s too late . V. To whom do we owe that soveraign Thrift of one Meal a day , but to Persons of the highest Quality , especially Compounders ? R. What you call Luxury , Mr. Civis , I know not : sure I am , most of our Gentry have long done , and still do their utmost , in the Fall of their Rents , to preserve their Ranks ; But find , that even their Thrift tends to their undoing . C. How , in Gods name should that be ? R. Marry , in endeavouring to preserve themselves , they destroy their Tenants . C. T is great pity indeed , they will not live hospitably in the Countrey , as their Ancestours did . V. You would do them a singular Favour , if you would please to teach them your knack of living in the same fashion with lesse then half the Revenue . R. Most of them , no question , might againe bouy up , if you of the City could be perswaded to give them Credit at Conscionable Rates , for the stocking of their Farmes , Tax fairely with them , and purchase part of their Estates at tolerable prices . C. However , would to God , they were sensible , how they Ruine their Families and the Countrey , by sculking here , as too many of them do : What they get in the Hundred , I am confident , they loose in the Shire . R. Troth , they are even too sensible of it , but it seems can find no better Fence for your Flayls . V. Soft , Mr. Civis , Do not at one breath condemn our Gentry for spending , and sparing too . C. What think you of the Lazyness of our Poor ? Is 't not a National Infelicity ? V. Find us steady Employment , say they , and then spare us not : But till then , pardon us for driving our Bargains as we can afford it , or at least for not working without Hire . C. I look you should urge the Reducing of Money upon this Occasion . V. You have Reason , for in Effect , the Poor of all Nations under Heaven are more or less idle or industrious , according to the current Rate of their Interest : And there 's no such Antidote to expel that Venom of sloath , either in Poor or Rich. C. If Laws be not executed , What can we hope for ? V. Coercive Laws , I must tell you , without suitable Policies and Encouragements , are but like the Contrivance of strict Discipline for unpaid Armies : But in earnest , 't is Pity you are not a Justice your self to try . C. You would fain palliate it ; But certainly , our greatest Plagues at this time are , the incorrigible Ideness of our Poor , and excessive Rate of Wages . V. Was the stinting of Wages ever successfully attempted in any Trading-Countrey ? C. I marvel it should not , being of such Importance to Trade . V. Surely , their varying every where , as they do , argues them to be of a boundless Nature . C. You still affect Singularity . V. How can you herein tax me with it ? there being as well a personal , as a local difference in the Case : For as one Horse of the same size , will sooner bring Ten Pounds , than an●ther Five ; one Farmers Corn is better worth five Shillings , than his Neighbours four : So one Servant , Labourer , or Artificer , may well deserve double the Wages that another doth in the same Place . C. Somewhat , I 'm confident , might and would be done in 't . V. Truly , nothing at all , but regulate Interest , and let Nature work : For let us reflect on our former Laws of this nature , What have they signified ? : And consider our late Act for the Militia , which assigns twelve Pence a day , as a general and standing Hire for those that serve with other mens Arms : How hath it been observ'd ? C. The greater Fault somewhere . V. 'T is in the very nature of Wages , which are so variable , that perhaps the same Rate , being but half Pay in Countreys near London , proves double Hire in the remoter Parts of England . C. If there be no other Redress for Wages ▪ A Fig for all other Expedients . V. Wages are Money ▪ And therefore in abating Money , you vertually abate Wages : You reduce six , to Four Pounds a year of real Value ; and consequently , eighteen Pence to twelve Pence a day : But this is not all , it hath a double Edge , for in raising the Price of Land , it ipsa facto quickens and raises all other Markets ; and so subdues Idleness of course , without noise : Servants and Workmen being ever noted to be tractable enough , when Provisions bear a Price . C. Nay , If you have no better way to curb their Insolence and Exaction , we must bid Adieu to Trade . V. The corrupting of the People is a certain and genuine Effect of embasing the Land ; for 't is one and the same Mischief which oppresses Masters , and debauches Servants , viz Cheapness without Plenty . C. Cheapness without Plenty ! Troath I ever took them for the same thing . V. 'T was a plain Mistake ; For I assure you , they are vastly different . C. Do you not take our present Plenty for a singular Blessing ? V. Such Plenty is nothing else throughout , but the pampering of Sloath , by starving of Industry . C. Well , 't were a strange Abuse , if Cheapness should highten Wages . V. 'T were a Miracle , if it should not here : For why should we suppose that any subsisting with ease , and no way depending , will work or serve but on their own terms ? C. But how can Wages rise , or indeed , hold in the Countrey , Tillage so much declining ? R. 'T were indeed as broad as 't is long , could our Charges be apportioned to our Prices : If you Artisans and men of Profession could but comply with our Rents , we should never complain : No , 't is their Encroachment , concurrent with the failing of our Markets , which mortally wounds us . V. To say the Truth , 't is the Growth and Grandeur of London , which thus imposes on our drooping Tillage and Manufacture , to their Undoing . C. Are you bound to imitate our Follies ? V. The Contagion is unavoidable : For how should those , at least in the adjacent Countreys , expect to regulate their Wages , whilst you in the City are continually raising yours , as you must , and indeed may well afford , though we cannot without Ruine . C. Cheapness without Plenty , with your Pardon , founds odly ; Whence , I pray , should it proceed ? V. From this capital Inconvenience . That in a necessitous time , the Measure of selling is not the Worth or Cost of the Commodity sold , but the Sellers Exigence . C. A special Maxime ! For how is the Value of any thing known but in the Sale ? V. Have you never observed , How one that is clouded sells a fair Jewel , or a goodly Lordship ? C. You will not , I hope , frame a general Rule from a particular Case . V. But by private Distresses , we may much more judge of publick necessities : Borrowers and Sellers , I assure you , now live under one unkind Planet , the Seller being no less a Servant to the Buyer , than the Borrower is to the Lender . R. Indeed , 't is generally noted , That most men now adays , either borrow to shun the Precipice of Selling , or sell , to avoid the Gulf of Borrowing ; So that all things follow the Measures of Land , and dance with it to the Usurers Pipe , onely the Fate of borrowing commonly lights heavier on the Landlords ; that of Selling , lights on poor Tenants and Artisans most . V. To speak freely , What can we judge of our present Trafique ( manag'd at such an uneasie Rate of Interest ) But that much of it is excessive Usury turn'd the wrong side outwards ? Nay , the Trading Extortion , perhaps , bites hardest of any : For Creditors seem confin'd by . Law , whilst Chapmen , methinks , know no bounds : And Sellers , having generally less command of Credit than Borrowers , are therefore more expos'd to Extremities . C. To me you talk Hebrew . V. There is certainly an Evil ( though secret ) ferment in the oppressive Rate of Usury , which in effect poysons all our Commerce , one Vein or Exigence and Extortion running through out . C. Do you take all Sellers to be Bankrupts ? V. The greatet part to be sure are now necessitous : And that 's enough to marr the Market . C. To what Cause will you impute this state of necessity ? V. Alas , The Ground-work was laid in the Impoverishment of our Gentry by the late War , though since notoriously amplified by a double grievance obvious enough , viz. the unequal Rate of our Interest in respect of forraign Trade , and that of Taxes among our selves , which , methinks , have fairly built upon that Foundation . V. 'T would make a sick man smile to hear some fore-handed Gentlemen , as we call them , how scornfully they defie borrowing , when already most of them pay Interest and Brokage too with a Vengeance . C. Can they pay Interest then without borrowing ? V. Whoever now hath Rents to receive , Lands to let ▪ Corn or Stock to vend , must look to drink deep of that Cup ▪ whilst Interest runs higher with us than with our trading Neighbours and Land alone , undergoes in effect , all publick Burthens . C. It 's a payment , God be thanked , they feel not . R. Just thus , for all the world , do many of our wise Landlords slight our Rates for the poor , and other Duties charged on Land , because forsooth , they immediately light on the Tenant . V. Faith , this is a melancholy subject : for as matters now goe , I see not , how any thing but extream Scarcity can yield the Farmer a tolerable and saving price for his Grain : And where , do you think , that must end ? R. In all likelihood , such a Discouragement and Disabling of our Tillage , must produce a dangerous Dearth , whenever it pleases God to send ill Seasons or Harvests , which after so many kindly years , we may now of course expect . C. I wish that were our greatest Danger . V. Flatter not your self : Cheapness and Dearth are nearer akin than you dream ; the Cheapness of Commodity proceeding mostly from the Dearth of current Money , as that , again , doth from the mean Value of Land : Our Chronicle tells us , That in Queen Maries Reign , Wheat the same year was sold for a Noble and six Pence the Bushel : A vast Disproportion , parallel perhaps to four Nobles and two shillings of ours . C. That Story , I suppose , will hardly concern our Times . V. God forbid it should ; though 't is a clear Case , our Cheapness now proceeds from nothing less than Plenty of Commodity : For I 'm confident , there hath scarce ever been less in the Granary : And surely the Prospect of our next Harvest is not over-hopeful : Besides , we are told of great Dearths in forraign Parts ; so as , for ought appears , had we Grain , we might have vent enough : Thus all things , one would think , should conspire to give Corn a considerable Price at this time : And yet , he that would now sell any Quantity of Wheat , can scarce get four Nobles the Quarter : Neither Stores , Crops not Prices : Ghess , Mr. Civis , at the reason . C. 'T is quite out of my Element . V. You must be blind not to see , how our Markets are enthral'd by Necessity , and the Benefit thereof wholly ravished from the poor Farmer , who as to avoid a wretched Bartering and Retailing Trade with his indigent Neighbours , that now live but from Hand to Mouth , falls a Prey to some usurious Interloper . C. I should rather wish him to keep his Grain for better Prices , which Time and Patience no doubt would bring him . V. Have you not heard , That the Steed may starve whilst the Grass grows ? Who , I beseech you , in the mean time shall pay his two Rents and make good his Seasons ? You would do him a Courtesie either to bayl him for the present , or secure him from Loss in the upshot : His Fruits being perishable , and our Markets now adays seldom mending : For indeed , the first , how low soever , are generally noted to be the best . C. I never heard that to be observed before , nor can I devise any good Reason for it . V. Can it be , but forbearance of Sale must still further aggrevate the Sellers necessity ? R. Pox on 't , I 'm sure 't was not wont to be so : We had once a kind of Market in every Parish , and could utter most of our Commodities at home : We were not then forc'd to carry our Corn God knows whither , deal with God knows whom , sell for God knows what , to be paid God knows when : But are we to marvel at this want of Vent , when so many good Seats and Farms , every where , stand empty , the Crows being Tenants , and the Rooks Landlords ? V. Never look to see things mend , but still further decline , whilst the Land it self is so cheap , and the revenues of money and Land at so wide a distance ; for if the Spring-head be brackish , how can the streams be wholsome ? R. Carry your compost still from the soyl , say we in the Countrey , and see what your Farmes will come to . C. Belike , you imagine low Interest will quicken your vent , and mend your Prices . V. It glories in nothing more than the due balancing and fixing of Markets : For want of which in languishing Countries they float , and are bandyed from one extreme to another , always either choaked or pin'd ; now shivering , as it were , with treacherous cheapness , anon burning with grievous Dearth . C. Quickness of Markets , no doubt , were a great Felicity to us at this time ▪ but will low Interest , think you , produce it ? R. Will you put us to prove ▪ that by the fall of Money , all things bought with Money must rise ? V. 'T is a plain case , Land , like a Primum Mobile of Commerce , swayes the lesser Orbs : So as by a natural Sympathy and Symmetry as it were of parts with the whole : wheresoever Land is cheap or dear , all the native Commodities are cheap or dear with it ; and whatsoever depresses or exalts the Fund it self , accordingly embases or ennobles it's Fruits , either affecting them with a mean and contingent Price , as in Colonies , or with a considerable and constant Value , as in flourishing Countries . R. Indeed 't is remarkable , that the Prices of our Corn and Cattel have all along ebb'd and flow'd with that of Land : The same deadly Exigence , which hath driven the Free-holder to part with his Estate at half the Value , constraining likewise the Farmer to expose his Fruits at a Rate , even beneath what they cost him . C. I perceive yoa are all for Land. V. So would you be too , did you but consider , that Land is eminently all things else : I have heard it notably aver'd , that two years Purchase gain'd or lost in the Price of Land , doth ipso facto augment or impair the Capital of this Kingdome more than the Value of all our Cash , and other Goods together , ( Stock upon the Land excepted . ) C. Sure you expect a Fee from the Landlords . V. Some others , perhaps , may soon be as sensible as the Landlords themselves , what an immediate Character of decay the fall of Land stamps on the Commonwealth , what a fatal and contagious Cheapness and Penury always attends it ! R. Methinks 't is of prime Importance to this Argument . That the whole burthens of Excise or Impost , however design'd , now certainly light on the Part already grieved , viz. the Land , as Humors resort to a Bruise . C I ever took it , that Excises and Imposts fell on the Consumer , I 'm sure it hath been generally so receiv'd . V. 'T is then a vulgar Error , for the Merchant informs us , that high Duties are an Embasement to any Commodity , amounting to a kind , of Prohibition . C. Yet I have heard able Merchants wish , the Customs were taken off from forraign Trade , either in whole , or at least in part , and a Recompence otherwise charg'd , viz. by an easie Pound Rate upon Land , or moderate Excise . R. The same Notion have I met with from Traders , and once from a worthy Gentleman . V. Were Interest roundly reduced , and Money brought into the Tax , it might do rarely well , but what , indeed , almost could then miscarry ? R. So I answer them , yet still they affirm , that even as things now stand , the Countrey would chiefly reap the Benefit of it . V. Beshrow their Partiality : But in earnest , Can they think us such Fools to be so impos'd on ? Let them go preach at Barbadoes , and Virginia , what a Lift it would give to their Trade , if additional Duties were laid on Sugars and Tobacco's , certainly Land-Taxes ( besides the ruinous Clog of our Inheritances , where continued ) are dangerous Imposts upon all growth at the first hand , and no way now to be born , without the regulating of Interest . R. Nay , I ever disrelisht the Proposal , for indeed , common sence dictates , that publick Burthens are far more comfortably laid upon forraign Superfluities , viz. Wine , Silk , Spice , &c. than upon our native Commodities , viz , Corn , Wool , Flesh , &c. All which are evidently taxed in the Land : And therefore so to transfer the Customs , what were it but like the rash Cure of a sore Leg , by driving back the Humour , to the hazard of life ? V. Besides , 't is suppos'd , the very maintenance of our Poor , alone considered , is already , in point of Charge at least double to all the Burthens of forraign Trade : That of the Church , by Tithes and other Duties , more than treble : And yet , perhaps , these are not half the Incumbrances of Land. C. Well , 't is thought by knowing men to be a wholsome Expedient . V. It may prove so in time , but never till Usury be tam'd , without publick Ruine : For consider of what Consequence it must be for poor Farmers still to encounter with bad Markets ; Alas , 'T is nothing but over-charging the Land hath already brought us to this pass . C. I ever took you to be a zealous Advocate for Trade , but find you rather its Adversary . V. A fair and well-grounded Trade advances Land , and therefore cannot be enough honored and encouraged : whereas our present Traders can subsist with no less profit than must undo the Countrey . R. 'T is too manifest indeed , that without grinding the Farmer and Artificer , our Merchant could scarce abide any forraign Market , but being , as he oftimes is , sorely bitten , he licks himself whole with a Witness at their Cost , easily trampling where the Hedge is low ▪ So that there all our Miseries center , as heavy things natuaally sink to the bottom ▪ V. This take for an infallible Rule : The immoderate Benefit of Traders hath an evil Aspect , and is inconsistent with good Trade ; for light Gains , we say , makes the Purse heavy , which Rule holds more currently in the national , than in the personal Concernment . C. Do you grudge the Merchants Gains , or would you have them limited ? V. I onely wish them more regular , and doubtless had we a just Rate of Interest , they would need no other limits ; but now , to be sure , where the Traders benefit is vast , the poor Countrey pays the Reckoning ; since the Market abroad affords it not , as our good Neighbours the Dutch will inform us . C. These are but Notions . V. Nay , there 's nothing in proof more familiar , for to instance in our Vent of Corn ; Suppose good English Wheat now carry eight Shillings the Bushel in the Mediterranean , where we read of so much scarcity in our weekly Gazettes : If the Merchant here give five , his Profit is very competent , yet consistent with a Livelihood to the Farmer : But if he lade , as I doubt he doth , at three , nay , oftimes under , he , indeed , may soon thrive , if his Stock be his own , but our Tillage must certainly droop ; the same Reason holds in our Manufactures . C. Where all this while doth the Sho●e wring ? R. As to the Sale either of our Lands or Goods , there is now one general Complaint , viz. that of many Sellers to a few Chapmen ; not to be redrest with such a Retrenchment of Interest , as shall oblige our Usurers to purchase or trade in good earnest . V. In Holland , we know ▪ Money being cheap and Land dear , mighty Stocks , even the whole Estates of wealthy and wise men are generally pour'd into Commerce , with profit suitable to low Interest , and great Thrift necessarily attending it , but with certain and prodigious Vent : Whereas here the able Merchant dallies with Trade , contenting himself with the Credit and outside of his Profession , and dealing onely with a small Stock to his private Ease and Advantage , but to publick decay : As for the Bulk of his Estate , 't is manag'd at Interest , or at best laid out on some easie purchase of Land : Wer 't not for these helps at Maw , to be sure , our Traders would long since have swallowed low Interest , perhaps more greedily , than the very Farmer or Landlord . R : We find it , indeed , to our Cost , scarce any Traffique comes amiss to the Fleming ; he under-sells his Neighbours , even in their own Commodities : Whilst we , on the other side , are confin'd to a few Trades , being forc'd to take his Leavings , and quit divers of the greatest Bulk and Advantage to the publick ; for such are commonly those that yield small Benefit to Traders . V. Nay , for a clear Demonstration , what the cheapness of Money effects , he can afford to furnish us with our own Corn hoarded divers years ; the Sale whereof , few of our Farmers can at all forbear : To see such a Spot of Ground undergo such Burthens , equip such Fleets , maintain such Wars , repair such Losses , one would think it should make their Neighbours enamoured of low Interest . C. 'T is suppos'd , the Dutch have a world of other Arts and Advantages for Trade beyond us . V. Some they had need to have to carry it as they do , but this is their Mother-policy , which gives them so much the start of us , nay , which gives life to all the rest . This , no doubt , is the very Hinge upon which they all move : They subsist by endeavour , we thrive by sloath ; their Merchants are Merchants indeed , Ours onely in countenance . C. Will you blame men for playing the best of their Game ? V. 'T is pity , I 'm sure , it should be so ; yet I must neeeds partly acquit them ; for in Countreys , where Interest runs higher than with their Trading Neighbours , small Dealings are commonly gainful , whereas vast Stocks are scarce to be imploy'd in Trade without ruinous hazard ; it being , indeed , in the nature of high Interest , to make the Gains of Merchandise great , but altogether contingent ; in that of low , to render them moderate , but withal , certain . R. What a par-boyl'd Traffique do we drive in the mean time ! such a sickly and languishing Trade may well prove Hectick to the Commonwealth . C. You your self have often noted from the Advancement of the Customs , and other the like Measures , that our Trade hath long been , and still is upon encrease : How doth this suit with the languishing Trade you complain of ? V ▪ The late encrease of Customs and of our Trade in bulk , we owe partly to the Growth of our Plantations , but principally , I doubt , to the fatal cheapness of our Land ▪ and it's Fruits , it being in effect but a Web spun from our own Bowels , and a Pyramide erected on the Farmers decay ; though therewith 't is slow and scarce discernable , like the growth of Dwarfs and stunted Trees ▪ whereas the low Rate of Interest in Holland , and the late notable Abatement of it in Sweden , renders their Advancement in Trade and Shipping as conspicuous as the Sun in it's Noon-day Brightness : Now if we stand still whilst our Neighbours thus advance , the old Rule , Non progredi est regredi , may ( all things considered ) prove our Case . C. Is 't possible , the odds of a little Interest Money should be of such moment ? V. Is 't possible a Tradesman should ask that Question , who daily sees how a Grane turns the Scales ? And therefore cannot be to learn , wh●t a Change must ensue from the difference of a third part in our R●te of Interest , since by it all Contracts are weighed , measured , and finally governed : Surely high Interest must dangerously affect all our Dealings , and especially the minds of men , who acting rationally , and not being troubled with squeamishness of Conscience , cannot but prefer Ease and Certainty before Pains and Hazards , though the benefit were equal , which generally , I presume , it is not . R. Nay , but in the matter if self , ( as you said before ) betwixt trading at a Rate above or beneath the Market ; be the difference never so little , the general Disproportion is vast . The one rowing , as it were , with Wind and Tide ; the other , against both ; the one being sure of current Vent for the greatest Fraughts ; the other running manifest hazard of bad Market for the smallest . C. I 'm sure , we celebrate those for flourishing and happy times , when less than half the Trade serv'd us that now we drive . V. To advance in a small Estate , is far more hopeful and cheerful , than to decline in a great . C. Remember Interest was at 10 per Cent. in that which we reckon our Golden Age. V. And , forget not , if you please , how the Case is since alter'd with us , by the late War athome , and the general Peace abroad , by the excessive growth of Holland , and by the Necessity of several Impositions for the support of the Government . C. It was once your judgement , that Land and Trade could have no divided Interest . V ▪ Land and Trade , to be sure , cannot : But Land and Traders ▪ methinks , may . C. What would you be at ? All never did , nor could thrive ; and if some now do , what matter to the publick , who the parties be ? V. With your favour , if a few , and those idle Persons onely swagger , whilst the many , and the industrious droop , where must it end ? Let 's however stick to our ancient Motto , God speed the Plough . C. Have you never heard the proposal of a different Interest upon real and Personal Contracts ; methinks , it might now be seasonable . V. It was of Old , my Lord Bacons : And truly , if you will warrant it practicable , I dare pronounce it equitable , in respect of hazard and gain ▪ For visibly most Trades-men might yet better afford to borrow at eight , then Gentlemen at three per Cent. C. Upon the whole matter ; there 's much I see to be said for low Interest : But you 'l ne're convince me , that 't is such an Elyxir , as you fancy . V. Assure your self , want of good vent in an Island , blest with so many advantages as this above all , with Liberty , Safety , and Peace , doth even naturally guide us to that Expedient : Neither is bloud letting a more specifick cure for the Pleurisie , as may appear by the Preamble of the Statute 21 Iacob l , which you will find Instar omnium to my sense , if you please to consult it . C. I hope , you do not , mean the Art , which first brought money from ten to eight in the hundred : For how can that serve your present purpose ? V. Believe me , 'T is a fair and perpetuall Looking-glass , clearly representing , how the price of all our native commodities waits on that of Land ; how all things then were , and must ever be embased , nay even prostituted to an inconvenient Rate of Interest : For thereunto it imputes a very great Abatement in the value of Land , and other the Merchandises , Wares , and Commodities of this Kingdom , the disabling men to pay their debts , and continue the maintenance of Trade ; the enforcing them to sell their Lands and Stocks at very low Rates , to forsake the use of Merchandise and Trade , and to give over their Farms , and so become unprofitable Members of the Common-wealth . C. I trust , you will not draw Arguments for four per Cent. from the Authority which permitted eight . V. By the resemblance of Symptoms , I leave you to judge of the Disease , and consequently it's Cure : For is not our condition here describ'd to the life ? Doth it not speak our very Idiom ? And if the same Reason , why not the same Law ? R. You may swear , it hath long been our very case : Our Farmes have proved meet Plantations , our Freeholds sorry Cattels ; and consequently all the fruits of the Land as errand drugs , as any stale Mackerel cry'd about London-streets in Iunc . C. I could almost afford to wish , that Money were for a while abated by way of Probation . V. Your Proposal , indeed , is back'd with the Authority of former Precedents ; though temporary Laws are seldom through paced : but what a change would it make , if Money were but cheap with us , and Land dear , 't would be a Salve for every Sore , and of such general Advantage , as if our very Climate were altered , and our Countrey carried ten Degrees Southward : All Ranks from the Prince to the Swain would soon feel the warmth of it . C. If 't would ascertain the Payment of Rents , that we might have current Security again , 't were somewhat like ; but for raising the Purchase of Land , I reckon , 't is onely robbing Peter to pay Paul. V. Are you deaf , or asleep ? Would not our Rents be current , if our Markets were quick and steady ? And what hath been all this while the drift of our Argument , but to shew , how all things rise and fall with the Land ? C. Nay , I am not yet your Proselyte . V. But do you not apprehend of what Importance 't is to raise the Purchase of Land ; how it enlarges both the Publick Fund , and every individual Estate ; what an Indies 't were to us , if our Lands were currently sold for thirty or forty years Purchase ; and what magnificent Improvements of Revenue must of course ensue ! C. You are still vnpouring with your Improvements , when 't is the opinion of our wisest men , we have already improv'd our selves out of doors , and nothing else hath undone us . V. Nothing hath indeed undone us , but the Discouragement of it : For most of our Land without it , is no better than a Waste to the Commonwealth , and De-quoy to the Farmer ; whereas solid Improvements are to the Owner more valuable than any Purchase to the State , more considerable than Conquest . C. Well , you differ herein from all I converse with . V. Then you converse with none but Money-mongers : For Rusticus knows , there 's not half the Improvement now stirring , he and I remembred , which is , and must be the ruine of our Farmers ; since without regular Cost bestowed on most Lands , it is easily ghessed , what the Tillage of them will come to . R. I would not be bound to plough the better half of our Farms Rent — free , without constant and chargeable manuring them . But alas , where are the Tenants , or indeed Owners , that are able , as things now go , considerably to mend their Land without borrowing ? Which are like the Chymists vanity , to make Gold without Loss . V. Nay , though they never borrowed , could they afford it at our present Rate of Interest , and the now current prices of Land and Stock , unless they challenged the Priviledge of doing what they list with their own : Would not they raise double the Ret venue by lending , or purchase cheaper at least by half ? R. That likewise would be well advis'd on . V. As I am grieved to see such Tracts of Arable lye untill'd upon these accounts ; So am I scandaliz'd to observe thousands of Acres yearly ploughed to great loss for want of good Husbandry , which ▪ with our familiar amendments ( not discourag'd ) might have yielded Crops equally profitable to the owner and the publick . R. Did but our Sages and Criticks mark the different Product of the same Lands , according as they are well or ill Husbanded , and withal consider , that however the Crop proves , the Charge of Tillage is the same , they would not so deride Improvement , but wise men are apt to abound in their own sence . V. Nay surely , if the Farmer , who now hath twelve or fourteen Bushels of Wheat on an Acre , and sells by the Medium of three Shillings , could ( as formerly ) have eighteen or twenty , and sell by that of five , 't would soon make all things smile : 'T is doubtless from the same decay , that both our Crops and Prices falls , and as they fell , so they must rise together . C. Imarvel , you should still Rove on improving the Land , when already it yields more than people we have can consume . V. Are we then purely to depend on our own Consumption ? C. I suppose we must , if we find no better vent abroad . V. Small cause we have to Complain of Forrain vent , especially at this time , having more Market than Grain to vend . R. No 't is a fatall constellation , where half-crops , low prices , and high wages meet , as we see they here do in the Embasing of the Land. C. Do you not then alow our Deadness of Vent to proceed from want of People ? V. As if there were any thriving without encrease , or decay without fayler of People . C. That want however , it seems , you admit . R. We feel it indeed shrewdly in the Countrey ; but methinks , we do not meet with it in your streets at London , nor find it by your Buildings in the Suburbs : Now surely 't were Charitable in you to spare us some of your Colonies . V. 'T is too manifest , that both in Wealth and People , ( which are plainly inseparable , ) and in effect Synonomous , our Cities and Trading Towns have of late dangerously gain'd upon our Villages , though perhaps without loss in the Total : In London , within forty years , there hath been an encrease of Inhabitants , alone sufficient to stop all our Gaps ▪ Witness our weekly Bills of Christenings and Burials : however , can we colourably complain for want of People ▪ that employ not half those we have ? Use Leggs , and have Leggs , was the old rule . C. To me it appears , we want only mouths to eat what we cannot utter . R. Where I beseech you , are those vast Granaries of ours ? If we be not grosly abus'd in our intelligence , we might soon be rid of that burthen ▪ were our Stores far greater , then I doubt they 'l prove . V. Had you told me , Mr. Civis , we wanted hands to work , or Stocks to employ them , you had said somewhat : But Mouths without hands , introth , 't is such a complaint , as was never , I think , offer'd before : For were not that want soon supply'd , by cherishing our breed of Vermine ? R. Doth any large and fruitfull Parish , judge you , lack a hundred poor and lazy Families to maintain for vent of their Corn ? If not why should you fancy the Common-wealth wants Creeples or Beggars ? C. Still I affirm , that had we twice the People , 't were much the better . R. Troth , I should be of your mind , if I saw those we now have , a little more useful and profitable to us than they are : Indeed the more the merrier , we say , yet withall the fewer the better Cheer V What Pastime 't is to hear the goodly Expedients commonly propounded to quicken our Vent ! One is for the raising and fixing of Prices by Law ; Another would have sowing of Corn , when cheap , prohibited ; A third gives Sentence against great Crops , to be half burnt ; A fourth is for the drowning of our Fens and Marshes , and restraint of all future Improvements : A fifth is Tooth and Nayl for Polygamy : With such Bulrushes am I oft encountred by the bravest Champions of Six per Cent. C. But what if our Consumption were promoted , by generally clogging the Importation of forraign Growths and Manufactures . R. As if Trade would soar the higher for being more clog'd . V. I hate these shallow and Penny-wise Projects , which serve rather to proclaim us Bankrupt , than prevent or cure our Poverty : 'T is like the Tithing of Mint and Rue , but neglecting matters of moment : Or like hard pumping in a Ship without stopping the Leaks : God help us , when we must have Recourse to such shifts as are sometimes offered ; that were playing at small Game indeed : No , I 'le for feit my Senses if any thing effectually raise our Markets , but the buoying up of Land by the fall of Ujury , and equality of Assessments , not the publick only , but the Parochial : In a word , be but just to the Land , and all will come right of it self . R. To baffle Truth , and maintain Paradoxes is a Sophisters task : But common sense , one would think , might soon discover , That an inconvenient Rate of Interest and Taxes is alone sufficient to Embase the Land , and consequently all its Fruits , though lofty Wits , it should seem cannot stoop to such vulgar Aphorismes . V. Indeed the profound Enquiries , politick Lectures I daily meet with concerning the fall of Rents , make me think of the Butcher , that searcht narrowly for his knife , when 't was in his mouth : And most of the Remedies offer'd are not unlike a Plaister to the Shin or Toe for a Hectick Feaver . C. I was lately at a serious Club , where this was the Argument : And low Interest was there resolv'd to be profitable , if seasonable : But 't was withall agreed , That matters with us are not yet Ripe for 't . V. Yet a little Sleep , a little Slumber , saith the sluggard : But surely never were matters so Ripe as now ; when our Farmes are half under-stocked , yet our Markets clog'd ; when Borrowing notoriously crushes almost wheresoever it lights ; when Tillage and Trade cry aloud for it , as it were One and all ; when Mortgages of double or treble value daily become scarce worth Redeeming ; when security as well as Credit is worn thredbare , and Lenders almost as much distrest as Borrowers : when the Business expects only the Midwifery of Law , being ready , ( if 't were possible ) to teem of it self . C. You are Princes in conceit , but for Abatement of Interest , let me tell you , for your Comfort , 't will not pass in our time . R. Then let me tell you , for your Comfort , the Tayl of this Comet , I doubt , hangs over your City . V. For my part , really I should despair , from the strange Contradictions and Evasions it meets with , if I saw any shift could be made without it : But though Reason may be foyl'd , yet Sence and fatal Experience will not ; For who can now provide for posterity with an indifferent Estate ? And what , indeed , doth a great one signifie more than the Noise and Trouble of it ? How casual do most of our Dealings , and even our Callings prove ? Besides , without the Rise of Land , what can enliven our Farmers , quicken our Markets , or rescue us from the deadly Fits of Cheapness and Scarcity ▪ But above all ; In case His Majesties Occasions and the publick Safety should require large and frequent Levies , ( as in Reason they must ) what else can enable us to the comfortable payment of them ? 'T were a Miracle one would think , if one of these Motives should at length prevail : My Life for 't , this Distemper of ours hath a speedy Crisis . R. Nay , 't is a catching Disease , and will without speedy prevention , go round the house . V. I tell you Mr. Civis , I would scarce thank any man to secure me , that Interest shall be abated within a few years : For 't will cut it's way through the Rocks , and is now methinks , at our Threshold ; though I wish we might step forward to meet him ; For otherwise , as near as it is , e're it do it self , we , I doubt , shall be more than half undone : And , indeed , who can be without Concernment , for thousands of honest Families are now languishing under the Delay of it ? But you may remember , I have often upon this Occasion compared my self to the man in the Dark , digging for Day , which with a little Patience will certainly come of it's own accord . C. Faith , come and welcome ▪ Four per Cent. say I , could we but hope for a Register of Titles and Incumbrances ; there were some Comfort yet ▪ if once they passed Hand in Hand . V. How many Knots do you find or make in a Bulrush ! Alas , low Interest and a Register have a little mutual dependence or affinity ▪ though some would cunningly pin them together , that the heavier may clog the lighter ; A Register will be an Engine , which will be long in framing , and then perhaps not work in an Age ; whereas Abatement of Interest being fully precedented to our Hands , and lying ready for present use , may both pass in a trice , and operate from the very time of it's passing . Besides , what I pray , would your Register finally import to the due and necessary Ballance of our Trade ▪ and Markets , or to the exciting of Industry , and curbing of Sloath , which are our principal Aims : But I must take another Evening to discourse it with you ; 't is time we were at our Lodgings . ERRATA . Page 5. line 17. for Ranks , read Rooks. FINIS .