A supplement to a little book entituled, A reasonable account why some pious nonconforming ministers cannot judg it lawful for them to perform their ministerial acts in publick solemn prayer, ordinarily, by the prescribed forms of others : wherein is examined whatsoever Mr. Falconer in his book called, Libertas ecclesiastica, and Mr. Pelling in a book called, The good old way, have said to prove the ancient use of forms of prayers by ministers : and it is proved, that neither of the two aforementioned authors have said anything that proveth the general use, or imposition of such forms of prayer in any considerable part of the church, till Pope Gregories time, which was six hundred years after Christ, nor in any church since the reformation, except that of England, and (which is uncertain) some in Saxony. Collinges, John, 1623-1690. 1680 Approx. 176 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 60 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. 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A33979) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 61196) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 935:7) A supplement to a little book entituled, A reasonable account why some pious nonconforming ministers cannot judg it lawful for them to perform their ministerial acts in publick solemn prayer, ordinarily, by the prescribed forms of others : wherein is examined whatsoever Mr. Falconer in his book called, Libertas ecclesiastica, and Mr. Pelling in a book called, The good old way, have said to prove the ancient use of forms of prayers by ministers : and it is proved, that neither of the two aforementioned authors have said anything that proveth the general use, or imposition of such forms of prayer in any considerable part of the church, till Pope Gregories time, which was six hundred years after Christ, nor in any church since the reformation, except that of England, and (which is uncertain) some in Saxony. Collinges, John, 1623-1690. Falkner, William, d. 1682. Libertas ecclesiastica. Pelling, Edward, d. 1718. Good old way. [14], 104 p. [s.n.], London : 1680. Reproduction of original in Union Theological Seminary Library, New York. Attributed to John Collinges. cf. NUC pre-1956. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. EEBO-TCP is a partnership between the Universities of Michigan and Oxford and the publisher ProQuest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by ProQuest via their Early English Books Online (EEBO) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). 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Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Prayer -- Controversial literature -- Early works to 1800. 2006-11 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2006-11 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2007-03 Elspeth Healey Sampled and proofread 2007-03 Elspeth Healey Text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A Supplement TO A LITTLE BOOK , ENTITULED , A Reasonable account why some pious Non-conforming Ministers cannot judg it lawful for them to perform their Ministerial Acts in publick solemn prayer , ordinarily , by the prescribed Forms of others . Wherein is examined whatsoever Mr. Falconer in his Book called , Libertas Ecclesiastica , and Mr. Pelling in a Book called , The Good old way , have said to prove the ancient use of Forms of Prayers by Ministers . And it is proved , That neither of the two aforementioned Authors have said any thing that proveth the general use , or imposition of such Forms of Prayer in any considerable part of the Church , till Pope Gregories time , which was six hundred years after Christ ; nor in any Church since the Reformation , except that of England , and ( which is uncertain ) some in Saxony . Multa videntur , & dicuntur quae non sunt . LONDON : Printed in the Year , 1680. COURTEOUS READER , ALthough where the question is about the lawfulness or unlawness of any action , the pleading of Antiquity be a great impertinency ; and if the Plea be true , it can rise no higher than a presumptive argument ; and be so far from a demonstration , that it is not a good Topick ( for there is no prescribing to error ) . So that nothing can incline the scale of Conscience , in which every one is obliged to weigh every Proposition relating to his practice , but his apprehension of the revealed will of God , either from the letter , or reason of Holy Writ ; yet because every one is not thus spiritually instructed , and it makes a great noise to hear men talking , That the Church in all ages , all the Fathers judged otherwise than these men ; and if it were true in any case , it ought highly to oblige all Dissenters again and again to examine those arguments upon which they have founded their particular practical judgment . I ( who know the world too well to believe all that I read in mens Books ) have thought it reasonable to examine what Mr. Falconer , and one Mr. Pelling , have said to prove the pretended antiquity of forms of prayer as generally used , or required to be used by Ministers in their publick Ministrations as to Prayer . I the rather did it , because truly Mr. Falconer hath said as much as hath been said on that argument , or as that Cause will bear . The Reader will find Mr. Pelling hath added little but words . I must profess to my Reader , there appears to me no shadow or pretence of proof of the matter in question , till Pope Gregory and Boniface's time , more than 600 years after Christ ; nor do I believe any can be made to satisfie any inquisitive man. I leave it to thee to judg , whether I have not given a reasonable answer to any thing brought by these two , and shewed that they have made no proof that can satisfie the conscience of any man of any reasonable understanding , and thinks the thing is unlawful ; if indeed it were a thing granted indifferent , these little flourishes might do something ; but the conscience of a good man judging a thing unlawful , from grounds of Scripture and Reason , cannot be dispossessed of that judgment by any thing but by Scripture and Reason : and though the general judgment of the Church might stumble him , if his opinion were contrary ; yet that general judgment must be proved , not meerly talkt of , and plainly proved too , before it can have any operation at all . Now whether either of these Authors have done this , I leave thee to judg . The one of them is very confident , and can speak nothing of this nature , in a lower stile than with questionless , doubtless , without all doubt . The other , though much more modest , yet possibly hath some freer and smarter expressions in his Pages on this Argument than in any other part of his Book . But my humour is always to suspect a soft place in that part of any Book , where I meet with most confidence or passion . Reason is so beautiful and noble a thing , that it needeth not the service of passion , or paint of confidence . It commends it self to the next rational soul it meets with , without any such black patch , or foot-boy at its heels . I will freely tell thee my opinion about forms of Prayer in publick Ministrations , not imposing upon thee with any such thing , as questionless , and without doubt . I do believe that forms of Prayer are very ancient ; that is , that there were by some good and pious men forms of Prayer made , both for their own publick use , and for the private instruction of others , and teaching them to pray without forms . I do think that our Saviour Christ made the Lords-Prayer for the temporary use of his Disciples , not so as to oblige them to use no other , or to use that Sillabically , but to pray for those things either in those words , or other words , and that they might for a time use that very form particularly until his Resurrection and Ascension , after which I believe they were obliged to a more particular mention of his sacred name . I believe that forms of Prayer were much more in use before the pouring out of Gods Spirit in the days of Pentecost , than after ; for although the effects of that effusion of the Spirit were some of them peculiar to the Apostles ( such as speaking with Tongues , Miracles , Healing , &c. ) yet from that day to this I believe from Zach. 12. 10. there hath been a more full effusion of the spirit of grace and supplication upon all , both Ministers and people , than ever was before generally . Notwithstanding which , in regard that until men come to believe , and be Christians indeed , they have not the Spirit of God , and even then the Spirit of God works in them by the use of means , I do believe there were many forms of Prayer made by good men , teaching beginners in Christianity how to pray , and what to pray for . I am not difficult to believe that many both Ministers and people in those days might make use of such forms till their exercise in Scripture , and in the ways of God , rendred them as to them needless , and turned what were before helpers , into hinderances of Devotion . But I believe it cannot be proved that for more than 400 years after Christ , any one Church commanded her Ministers generally to use such , and no other , in any ▪ part of their publick ministration ; though possibly some particular men that had not the gift of Prayer , or at least feared themselves , or suspected they had it not , might use some forms made before by themselves or some others . Pope Gregory the Great ( who is commonly call'd the worst of all that went before him , though the best of all the Popes that followed him ) I believe was the first that commanded the general use of forms of Prayer by Ministers in their publick Ministrations . Platina saith thus of him , What should I speak more of this most holy man ? for all the ordering of the Ecclesiastical Office , especially the old one , was by him invented and approved . Haec in Canonem redegit , saith Platina . There were some free forms up and down , and some particular orders in some Churches ( none forced ; ) but he brought them into a Canon . Platina ( who was a later Popes Secretary ) saith , he came not to be Pope before 619. Yet it plainly appears by Pope Gregories answer to Augustine the Monks questions which he sent to him out of England , that he did not tye all to the use of his Missal . It pleaseth me ( saith he ) that you sollicitously make choice of what you find in the Church of Rome , or France , or any other Church , which may best please God , and infuse it into the English Church , which is yet young in the faith , particularly instructing it in things which you can gather out of many Churches ; for things are not to be loved for places , but places are to be loved for good things . I therefore out of several Churches pick out what things are pious , religious and right , and do you accustom your English mens minds to these things collected in a bundle . Some years after , by succeeding Popes it was enforced ; and by Charles the Great , about 800 , if we may believe Durandus . The Popes were then at such an heighth , as they could not expect that they and their Bishops should be quiet , if they had a Clergy consisting of men of parts and piety ; they therefore suffered any ignorant sottish persons to fill the Ministry , who ( so they might be gratified in their lusts and laziness ) would fawn upon the Pope and the Bishops of those times , and humour their superstition , pride , and luxury , and grandeur , provided they would humour them in sparing their lusts , and their pains ; the latter of which was eminently done by enjoining all Ministers to use the same Missal , and laying all Religion in the use of it , and making Preaching a rare and almost useless thing , or a Lecturing out of Aquinas and Scotus , and the Legend , and this was the whole trade till the Reformation 1516. Nor can I think this would have so generally been swallowed by people , but for another unhappy accident . About this time Latin was the common language of Italy , France , and Spain , and in that language their Divine service was ; but the Goths and Vandals ; and other Barbarians , over-ran these Countrys , and possessed them for many years , which corrupted the Latin tongue , so that it was understood no where ordinarily , though the Italian , French and Spanish languages are manifest Dialects of it ; but still the Mass-book was not altered . Thus came in the Latin service , used in Popery till the Reformation , understood by very few of them that heard it . So the Papists worshipped they knew not how ; and being ignorant , were very tame . The Reformation began in Germany 1517 ; in England not to speak on , till Edward the Sixths time , 1547 ; and had a present interruption of five years , after it had been on foot seven years ; then began something more to purpose with Queen Elizabeth 1558 ; in France at Geneva it was sooner 1535. It is true , our first Reformers both in King Edw. 6. and in Q. Eliz. time , thought fit to compose a Liturgy , or rather to reform what was used in Popery , leaving out the idolatrous and highly superstitious part of the Mass-book . Yea , they thought fit to command the universal use of it , under penalties , which may charitably be interpreted , to prevent a Popish Clergy , or a Clergy newly reform'd from Popery , using their old Mumpsimus . Nor indeed in that face of things was it reasonable to expect that any number of Ministers should be able to pray as they ought in publick ; and if they were not , they might for a time lawfully use forms . Yet whoso will read the Book called , The troubles at Francfort , will find that even then all godly Ministers and people did not judg it lawful ; which much more appeared in the succeeding years of the Reigns of Queen Elizabeth , King James , and King Ch. I. In the mean time it must be agreed , many both learned , godly , and worthy Ministers did thus perform their Ministerial acts in solemn publick prayer , and so do many now , which speaks them to judg it lawful . The Ministers in Scotland , the Nonconformists in England , all those in New-England judg otherwise ; and we believe many hundreds that conform in England , think it just lawful , not eligible ; only a thing may be submitted to , rather than lay down their Ministry . If this be not as to matter of practise , the true state of the case as to Forms of Prayer to be universally enjoined or used , I must confess I do not understand it , and should gladly learn of those that are wiser . But let us now enquire what is said by Mr. Falconer , or Mr. Pelling . THE Summary OF THE SUPPLEMENT TO The Reasonable Account . SEction 1. The reason of the Supplement . What Mr. Falconer saith , little concerneth the Nonconformists in the terms he hath expressed it . Sect. 2. There may be a double sense of Mr. Falconer's assertion of God and Christ appointing forms of Prayer ; in the first they are true , and granted by Nonconformists ; in the second , they are false , and denied by them . Sect. 3. God may make things necessary by his command , which without it are unlawful . Sect. 4. The only medium to prove that forms of Prayer made by men are lawful to be used by all Ministers , propounded , but not proved . Sect. 5. An examination of what Mr. Falconer hath said to prove , that God and Christ appointed forms of Prayer to be used without variation in Devotion . What he saith of the Lords-Prayer examined . His reasons answered why he thinks our Saviour gave it as a form . They conclude not . Two great presumptions to the contrary . The thing admitted , nothing proved by it . His instances from the Old Testament examined . Five Reasons making it probable , that those instances were never intended by God as Syllabical forms to be used without variation . The practice of the Jews in or after Christs time invaluable . Sect 6. An examination of Mr. Falconer's answers to the Nonconformists proof from Justine Martyr , and Tertullian , that in the first 300 years after Christ , there were no such Liturgies used by Ministers . A further proof added from Socrates Scholasticus , extending to more than 400 years after Christ. An answer to Mr. Falconer's pretended proof from Justine Martyr , Ignatius , Origen , Cyprian ; nothing is proved from them as to the first 300 years . Sect. 7. His proof from Constantine's making prayers for his Army , makes against him signifying that then there was no publick Liturgies . Constantine did nothing but what Nonconformists will allow and practice . Sect. 8. Nonconformists do not grant that forms of Prayer have been of general use by all Ministers , or imposed upon all , by any Church since the year 1300. Neither the Canon of the Council of Laodicea , nor that of Carthage proves it , nor that of the Council at Mela 402 , more than as to Ministers of that Province upon a special cause . Sect. 9. It is doubtful whether there was such a third Council at Carthage ; Justellus saith , if there were , they made but 21 Canons ; the Canon quoted is 23 , foisted in , being made after . The Canon it self proves there was then no Liturgy of ordinary use in the Church , variously and fully . Sect. 10. The Council of Milevis above 400 years after Christ ; that Province was over-run with Pelagians ; the eight first Canons transcribed , all against Pelagianism ; those the ground of the Canon ; yet that Canon proves nothing , but that if a Minister made prayers for himself , they must be brought to a Council ; and there approved before he used them . Sect. 11. Yet this proved a sad president . Sect. 12. An examination of what Mr. Falconer saith of the Liturgies father'd upon St. James , St ▪ Mark , and St. Peter . 4. Observations upon what he saith . An account of what my Lord of Morney hath fully said to prove them all supposititious . Sect. 13. What Mr. Falconer saith of the Liturgies ascribed to Ambrose , Basil , Chrysostome , is examined . They are abundantly proved spurious . 'T is in vain to say they have undergone alterations , but yet they were made by them . If made by them for their own use , not for others ; if voluntarily used by some others , it is nothing to the purpose . A presumption against their being known in the Church all the time of the Milevitan Council . Sect. 14. It was 300 years after this , before any Church imposed Liturgies , proved from Durandus . It was the year 600 ; then Gregory required the use of his ; and in the year 800 , when Pope Adrian got Charles the Great by an Edict to enforce the use of it . A pleasant story after this , about it . Sect. 15. A further strong presumption , that no further proof can be produced from the proceedings of the Commissioners about the Liturgy 1662. The story of it . Sect. 16. Mr. Falconer concluded from the premises to have spoken at too high a rate . A short account of the state of the Church from 500 and 600 years after Christ , to 1500. The state of the Church such for a 1000 of those years , as all Protestants judg : many things unlawful , in that time , believed and used . The purer Church from 600 to 1500 , only in some corners in France , the Principality of Piedmont , some parts of Bohemia : no Records of Liturgies imposed or used there . Sect. 17. No forms of Prayer but the Lords-Prayer generally used or imposed ( except in the Saxon Churches ) since the Reformation , but in England ; not in Switzerland , France , Scotland . The short History of the English Reformation . The opposition from the first , to forms imposed for general use . The woful extremes run into on both sides . Sect. 18. A Conclusion , challenging any to shew that Nonconformists in this thing differ from the judgment of Divines in the purer or lately Reformed Churches . Sect. 19. A Postscript concerning the judgment of the Reformed Church in Holland . Section I. ALthough the former part of our Discourse , giving Arguments which appear very probable to us , and from whence we have formed a practical judgment , That it is contrary to the will of God , that Ministers of the Gospel to whom God hath given the gift of Prayer , or ( if that phrase offendeth ) an ability to express their and their peoples causes to God in prayer , should perform ordinarily their Ministerial acts in prayer by the prescribed Forms of other men ; an argument against us from example and humane authority can be of little value : Yet in regard some of our brethren take advantage from hence invidiously to represent us as dissenters from the Church for 1300 years , nay from Christs time ; and there are too many that believe all some men have the confidence to say ; and considering the reverend Author of Libertas Ecclesiastica , tell us , Pag. 111 , 112. That it must be a rash sentence to condemn Forms of Prayer as evil and sinful , which were embraced by the ancient Church whiles it retained its soundness , and before the corruptions and distempers of the Church of Rome took place , and by the Protestant Churches since their recovery therefrom . And in the determining of what is expedient or inexpedient , he had need have strong foundations to erect his high confidence , who will oppose his own judgment , with some very few persons besides , against the concurrent judgment and practice of the Church of Christ in so many several ages , and Nations , and against the determination of God himself under the Old Testament , and our blessed Saviour under the New. Lest some less judicious person meetingwith this , should think us strange persons , I have thought it reasonable to review the premises of that Section upon which this conclusion is raised . I shall only desire the Reader to consider , that little of this doth concern the Dissenters , who are perfectly of the mind expressed in our former sheets . 1. For they do not condemn Forms of Prayer as evil and unlawful , they do believe them good in their kind and use ; they believe them good to be used for the instruction of people , and to help them in the acquisition of the gift ; and possibly they do think that John might thus teach his disciples to pray , giving them Forms , from which they might learn the sum of what they were to ask of God ; and many of them will yield , that the Lords-prayer was by Christ given to his Disciples for the same purpose , not to be used by them all their lives time in so many words , but as a Summary of what things they should ask of God , in what words they pleased . 2. For Devotion : the Nonconformists will grant that men and women , ( yea such as the Church ( for want of better ) may be forced to use in the Ministry ) may pray by the prescribed Forms of others . They indeed do not think this to be that prayer which God requires of his Ministers ; but they think thus the Minister and people too may pray mentally ; and those who join with another person ministring in prayer , never do more . § . 2. For what this Author saith , — Which were embraced by the ancient Church , whiles it retained its soundness , and before the corruptions and distempers of the Church of Rome took place , and by the Protestant Church since its recovery there-from . — We will by and by examine how far that is true , and upon what grounds he speaks it . But what doth he mean by the Determination of God himself under the Old Testament , and our blessed Saviour in the New ? If it be any thing to the purpose , it is not easie to understand . Doth he mean that either God under the Old Testament , or our blessed Saviour under the New , hath determined , that it is lawful for some particular men , be they Archbishops , or Bishops , or any other , to compose Forms of Prayer to be used by all Ministers in the Church , and that it is lawful for them to use them , and to perform their Ministerial acts in prayer by the use of them ? so one would think the words sound ; but he hath not spoken a word to prove this . This indeed would determine the business . Or doth he mean that God by prescribing some Forms himself , or inspiring some Prophets and holy men to do it ; or that Christ by prescribing a Form of prayer to be used by his Disciples , hath determined , That Forms of prayer are not like forms of blasphemy , which God himself cannot make lawful , being in their own nature evil ; but such things as his command may make lawful or necessary . This none ever denied : The question is , Whether they be not such things as with reference to some men in some circumstances , nothing but the command of God can make lawful ? For the same things may be sinful as to some men , which may be lawful , yea and necessary to others . It is lawful , yea necessary , for those who cannot otherwise avoid burning with lust , to marry ; it may be sinful for others who are Eunuchs by nature ; and lawful for some to make themselves Eunuchs for the Kingdom of heavens sake ; expedient for others for the present necessity ( as the Apostle speaks . ) The having , or not having the gift of continence makes the difference ; as in the present case the having , or not having the gift of prayer doth . § . 3. God or Christs immediate command may make things of this nature necessary , which have no essential and inseparable evil in them ; so that whatever is said of Gods prescribing Forms of prayer sometimes , and Christs prescribing a Form , signifies just nothing ; nor can possibly amount to more than this : Therefore Forms of prayer are not in their own nature considered abstractly from Gods will revealed in his word , sinful . Or , therefore God may , or Christ may command us Forms of prayer now to be used in our Ministry ; or may commissionate others to do it . Now all this will be granted . Only the question is , Where it doth appear that God hath commission'd any thus ? what direction is there in any leaf of Scripture for Bishops or Churches , or any persons , to compose Forms of prayer to be ordinarily used by all Ministers ? § . 4. I have been amazed , that those who are so zealous in this point , have not seen that the Reverend Bishop of Norwich hath fixed upon the only medium in nature to prove this assertion , in his Rationale on the Common-Prayer , pag. 8 , 9 , 10. viz. That God hath commissionated some to prescribe a form of the publick Worship . Upon which Hypothesis , what he there saith is indisputably true : That the publick Worship of God prescribed by those to whom he hath given commission , is the only true and right publick Worship ; and all other Forms and methods offered up instead of that , though never so exactly drawn , are strange worship , because not commanded . The Nonconformists most freely agree , that whatsoever Worship is not commanded by God , or whatsoever Worship is offered up to God instead of that which he hath commanded , is strange Worship . Now for any Forms of prayer used in any Church ( setting aside the Scriptural Forms which may make part of them ) neither God , nor Christ , nor any Prophets , or Apostles , by authority from God , have commanded them . So then the sense of this Reverend Prelate must be , That God hath commissioned the Bishops , Pastors , or chief Ministers of the Church , to prescribe Forms of Worship , publick Worship , and universally to impose them . Admitting this , we agree , all other praying is abomination . God hath commanded another way of praying , by commissionating chief Pastors in his name and stead to draw up the only Forms in which Ministers in publick may speak to him in prayer . This is the Proposition which our Brethren should spend their pains to prove ; and as I said before , I think to be the only Medium on their side ; if we could apprehend this to be true , or it could be so evinced to us , we should never speak a word more about conceived prayer , or praying by our own gifts . We should all strike sail to a command of God made out to us . If God or Christ hath commanded us the constant use of any form or forms in his Word , if his Prophets or Apostles have enjoined us any such , we also agree our selves bound to use them . But we are not patient of these trifling arguments : If the use of Forms of prayer , prescribed by God himself , or by Christ , or by the Prophets and Apostles , either for a time to be used , or to be perpetually used , be lawful for all ; then the use of Forms of prayer , neither made by God , nor by Christ , nor by his Prophets or Apostles , is also lawful . 2. If Forms of prayer be lawful , then they are lawful for all under all circumstances . 3. If they be good for instruction , and may be so lawfully used , then they may be used in Devotion , &c. 4. If they may be lawfully used even in devotion by some , or under some circumstances , then they may be lawfully imposed on all under any circumstances . § . 5. But yet though if it were true , that God by himself immediately , or Christ , or the Apostles , or Prophets , did prescribe the people of God in the Old Testament some particular forms , from which they must not vary , nothing could be concluded in our case ; yet for diversion-sake let us examine how well our Reverend Bishop hath proved this : He beginneth pag. 99. with Christs prescription of the Lords prayer ; from whence he saith , Isiodor . Hispalensis , thinketh the Church took its pattern for Liturgies . Isiodorus Hispal . lived more than 600 years after Christ , about the time Liturgies began to be in common use , and 200 years before they were any thing generally imposed . But the business is not what the Church in his time did , but upon what ground . Admit the Lords-prayer was directed by Christ as a Form of prayer ; By what authority did the Church after the effusion of the Spirit , do what Christ did ? By the same authority as I presume they made seven Sacraments , because Christ made two . But our Reverend Brother thinks it wonderful manifest , that the Lords-prayer was delivered as a form . 1. Because of the Text , Luk. 11. 2. When you pray , say . 2. Because of the ground of the Disciples request , Teach us to pray , to which this is an answer . 3. From the manner of the composure . 4. From the ancient Churches acknowledging and using it as a form ; for which he quoteth Cyprian , Tertullian , and Gregory . Our Reverend Brother knows that many great Divines have doubted it , and do doubt it , some thinking it only a direction for the matter , others for the true method of Prayer . Nor doth any thing our Brother saith conclude in the cause ; he knows that Mat. 6 9. it is only 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Pray on this manner ; and whereas he saith that it ia so in the Seventy , Numb . 6. 23. On this manner bless you ; yet those words have been taken for a constant invariable form of blessing , and was used so by Luther , and at Geneva . Who have taken them so I cannot tell , but I am sure it cannot be proved that the Priests never varied from that form ; and I do know one or two great Divines that have thought the Priests only tyed to the sense , not to those Numerical words or syllables . Luther and Calvin's use proveth it not , I hope ; but yet we think we may lawfully use any form of Gods prescription : the question is , Whether we may use no other ; nor that , with the least variation . Our Brother's second argument is yet weaker , The Disciples said , Lord teach us to pray as John taught his Disciples . What then ? was it not an apposite answer for him to tell them , That now they must call God Father , and pray that his Name might be sanctified , his Kingdom come , his will be done , &c. unless he set them a form of words to which they might not add , nor diminish ? The Disciples did not say , Lord tell us what words , and no other , we must use in prayer . But thirdly , ( saith our Brother ) our Saviour gives in the phrase of prayer ; but doth this conclude ? so do we sometimes give our Children forms which we desire not they should use as forms , but directions to speak to the like purpose . For Cyprian , Tertullian and Gregory , who lived 300 , 400 , 800 years after Christ , they were not like to know Christs intention in this , more than we ; and for their use of it as a form , We do not think it unlawful to use those intire words and phrases as a part of our prayers , nor indeed any other Scriptural forms of words that are proper . But on the other side , are they not two great presumptions that our Saviour never intended it as a form , 1. That we never read in Scripture that it was so used afterward . 2. That the name of Christ , in whose name ( Joh. 16. ) we are commanded to pray , is not in it ( unless by implication ) as it hath been in all prayers of the Church since the Ascension of Christ ; the prayers concluding for the sake of our Lord Jesus Christ ? To compremise this business , I believe it was as a form given to the Disciples , being then but children , and not perfectly instructed to the Kingdom of God ; and they might or might not use it as a form , until they should be more fully instructed and inabled , but not with any obligation upon them , or the Church after them , necessarily to use those numerical words in that order ; nay , that after Christs Resurrection it was their duty to add something more to their prayers , asking plainly and expresly in the name of Jesus Christ : For he tells them , Joh. 16. 24. Hitherto you have asked nothing in my name ; how could that be true , if they had used the Lords-prayer till then , and the petitions there had been so put up in the name of Christ , as appears to have been his will now ? vers . 23. Our Brothers next instance is pag. 103 , 104 , 105. from the example of the Jewish Church ; here he tells us , That the Jews did use prayers with their sacrifices ; and had their hours of prayer . These things he proveth well from Lev. 1. 10. Act. 3. 1. and that Aaron was to confess the sins of the people over the live-goat , Lev. 16. 21. What is all this to the purpose ? none doubts but that Priests and people prayed under the Old Testament as well as the New. But the question is , Whether by stated forms or no ? 2. He tells us there are evidences in Scripture of such forms , 2 Chron. 29. 30. The King commanded the people to praise God with the words of David and Asaph ; That is , with such and such portions of holy writ ; do not all men grant that some parts of holy Writ may be sung in publick Worship ? The Nonconformists will allow no other ; he instanceth in Joel 2. 17. Hos . 14. 2. Deut. 21. 8. Deut. 26. 3 , 4 , 5 , 13 , 14. It is true , in all these Texts there are some short , very short forms of prayer ( as they lye before us they are so . ) But 1. can our Reverend Brother think so short phrases or sentences as some of them are , were ever used as the only solemn prayer used at that time ? 2. Is there any Record that they were ever syllabically used ? 3. Is it said , you shall use these words and no other ? 4. Is it not ordinary for us in our Sermons , directing people only to what sense to pray , in our Sermons to say , Go to God and say , &c. and then give them a short prayer , which we never intend they should use as a form . 5. Is it not reasonable to think this was all intended in these passages , when we consider the length and solemnity of the Prayers recorded in Scripture of Solomon , Ezra , Daniel , Hezekiah , Jehoshaphat ? For the practice of the Jews in later days , I shall only say this : 1. That he knows how little credit is to be given to any testimony of the Rabbins , and what time the earliest writings of theirs appear'd . 2. How ill their practice can be pleaded , who our Saviour saith worshipped God vainly , teaching for Doctrines the Traditions of men . 3. That I observe , Luk. 4. 16. that when our Saviour at Nazareth went into the Synagogue , the Clerk did not bring him any Common-prayer-book , but the book of the Prophet Isaias , which he made use of . § . 6. Let us now leave these pretences of more ancient proof , and come to consider what hath indeed been the practice of the Church since the Apostles times ; for our Reverend Brother thinks it probable , that while the miraculous gifts of the Spirit continued , Prayer was performed by them . For the time succeeding the Apostles , it must be divided into three periods : 1. The first is the purer period of it before the Bishop of Rome got fully into Saddle ; this as to Doctrine held to a great degree for 500 years ; but as to Rites and Ceremonies , scarce half so long , as we shall possibly shortly shew . 2. The second is the depraved period of it , which was for a 1000 years as to Doctrine , 1200 and more as to some matters of Rites and Government . 3. The Reformed period of it , which was from the year 1516 , and is yet going on . For the first of these Periods we have not so full and clear an evidence of what was the practice of the Church , as we could desire . For though it was after the year 600 that the Bishop of Rome got the Title of Vniversal Bishop ; and some years after that , before the Church of Rome was furnished with all her present accoutrements , and 1200 before Transubstantiation was setled : Yet betwixt that and 1500 they had time enough to burn all the Writings of the Ancients , from which the practice of the Primitive Church might appear to us ; or so to correct them and interpolate , that we might see little or nothing that could be made use of to shew the Novelties of their Doctrine and practice ; yet Bernardus non vidit omnia ; some things scaped their eye or correction , of which our Divines make good use . Let us see what our Reverend Brother produceth for the first 300 years , which all Divines say was the most pure times of the Church . It is not our part to prove the Negative ; it lyeth upon our Brethren to prove that there were forms universally imposed on all Ministers . There might be forms for instruction ; some men might at their pleasure compose forms for their own devotion and use them ; but that the governing part of the Church did in those years make forms , and require all men to use them , and Ministers and Christians then generally thought it lawful ; this is to be proved : for we will yet allow a lawful use of forms of prayer for instruction , and in some cases for devotion , and if they did no more , we agree with them . Our Reverend Brother hath , pag. 113 , 114 , 115 , 116 , 117 , 118. taken notice of some proofs brought by Divines of our mind , to make it very probable that in those years there were no such forms made for general use , no such forms generally used , much less enjoined to all to be by them used . The first is that of Justine Martyr , who flourished about the year 160 , who says the Minister sent forth prayers 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , our Brethren translate it , [ as they were able , ] this Reverend Author will have the sense to be with all his might . I do not think that any thing can be infallibly concluded on either side from it ; the words may signifie either , or both ; and so one thing in one part , another thing in another part of the same Apology , so as that debate is never like to be ended . The next is that of Tertullian , who lived about 200 years after Christ , who saith the Christians did pray Sine monitore quia de pectore , without a monitor , because from their heart . Our Reverend Brother thinks sine monitore can in no propriety of speech be understood of a form ; and why ? because a form must be a person . And was not that other person who composed the form a person , think we ? and his monitor who prayeth by his form ? nay are there not mute as well as vocal monitors ? May not the bell which calls us to a publick assembly , be called our monitor , because it is no person ? Is it so unusual a figure to give the name of the office of a person to the thing that doth that work as effectually ? for his peculiar sense of that Text , I see no need of it , but leave it to criticks . Besides , the words are not cum pectore , but de pectore ; the words of the Christians prayers flowed from the heart , conceived there . He takes notice of no more brought on our side within the first 300 years . But I shall mind him of another , and that a shrewd one , the Reader shall find it in Socrates Scholasticus , Histor . l. 5 cap. 21. in these words , — 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Every where and in all worships of Prayers , there are not two to be found that speak the same thing . This cannot be understood as to matter , but as to words , which could not be if they prayed in all Churches by the same forms of words . As to matter , it is unquestionable false . It is true , Socrates lived in the fifth Century ; but he relates the History of the Centuries before him as well as his own ; what need we any further witness for near 500 years after Christ ? Let us now hear what our Reverend Brother hath to say in proof of his assertion . He produceth in the second Century , Ignatius and Justine Martyr ; but what say they ? one of them speaks of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the other of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that is , Common-prayer . But must the Minister himself needs use a prescribed form , because his Prayer is common to the people ? I wonder how a Minister can in a Congregation make any other prayers than 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Common prayers . Surely the term of Common-prayer is too much an Anglicism to be expressed , especially in Greek in that manner . In the third Century our Reverend Brother produceth Origen and Cyprian . What say they ? Origen saith they often said in their prayers , O Almighty God , give us a part with thy Prophets : and doth not many a Minister who useth no form ordinarily , say in his Prayers , O Lord , forgive us our sins ; and , O Lord bring us to thy everlasting Kingdom . Shall these common Petitions prove a hundred years hence , that these men prayed by set-forms ? For his other passage out of Origen , I have not the Book to weigh it ; but am sure those words , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , is not so much as a good Top●ck , much less of a Demonstration of Liturgies . What saith Cyprian ? he testifieth , That they used to say , Sursum corda , lift up your hearts ; and the people said , Habemus ad Dominum , we lift them up to the Lord. So many a Minister that prayeth by no forms , begins his Prayer with Let us pray . Let us lift up our hearts to the Lord , &c. This is all the proof this Reverend Author brings for 300 years after Christ ; let any fair Reader judg the force of it , and whether the proofs of the Negative be not more probable and strong , especially when we are assured by Socrates 150 years after this , That there were not two to be sound that used the same words in prayer . And truly what proof he can bring after 300 years , is not much valuable ; for I shall shew that in those ages , worser things than Liturgies were crept into the Rituals of the Church . § . 7. His next instance is that of Constantine , which must be betwixt the year 306 and 324 ; Eusebius saith , That he made godly prayers for the use of his Soldiers ; and Eusebius accounteth this a very admirable thing in him . Certainly if true , so it was . But doth not this argue that there was then no publick Liturgy ? for certainly if there had , his Chaplains would have used it , as now our Chaplains do to Regiments and Ships ? Eusebius calleth these constituted prayers ; But by whom ? by Constantine : For whom ? for his Soldiers ▪ not for his Ministers . Doth any one think Constantine's Soldiers had generally the gift of prayer , and were able to express themselves properly to the present case of his army ? This argues that Constantine did not think fit his Legions should be without all Worship of God ; nor did he think forms unlawful for those who could not pray without them ; he therefore wrote down some prayers in a Book , ordered them to be read to them ; and himself sometimes read them , or pronounced them . What is all this to our purpose ? we advise the like to all Housholders , who have not ability of themselves to pray in their families : For Eusebius his saying this was after the manner of the Church . If it be understood for the Minister of the Congregation to make prayers for his own Church , it is what we plead for ; if it be meant that he kept a course of prayer in his army as is in the Church , it proves nothing for forms , unless it could be done no otherwise . § . 8. For what our Reverend Author saith next ( for I take his Quotations as they respect order of time , not as they lye in his Book ) p. 106. he seems to me as if he would a little impose upon us : for he tells us ▪ — That forms of prayer were of use in the Church about 1300 years since is acknowledged by them who plead most against them , from Concil . Laod. cap. 18. 3 Carthag . c. 23. Concil . Milevit . cap. 12. and that they have continued from that time downward cannot be denied . That there were forms of prayer before this , we will not deny ; that some particular persons might use some , we will not deny : But that they were universally imposed upon any considerable part of the Church for more than 400 years after this , we will deny . Nor do the Canons mentioned prove any such thing . Let us try if we cannot prove it . The Council of Laodicea was in the year 364 , some say 315. All that this Synod decreed was , that the same order of Prayers should be used morning and evening ; for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth not necessarily signifie form ; besides , in Liturgies , Mattens and Evensong use to differ . And Caranza makes the title of the Canon only concerning daily prayers , and the substance of it , That prayers should be made in the Church morning and evening ; besides , this was a very small part of the Church ; Caranza saith there were but 22 Bishops there . The Council of Carthage rather determines the contrary ; for it decreeth , That if any Minister composed any prayers for his own use , he should not use them till he communicated them with his abler Brethren . So then he might compose prayers by his own gifts . This was 395. Indeed the Canon of the Council of Mela is plainly restrictive of Ministers liberty ; but it was made upon a special occasion , upon the woful prevailing of the Pelagian Doctrine in that Province , and reached no further . And they in their Canon plainly set down the reason of it , Lest ( Pelagianism being so rampant there ) some phrases through carelesness or ignorance should be put in contrary to the faith . § . 9. And now we are come to 400 years and more after Christ . But I must not pass over here what our Reverend Brother saith , p. 118 , 119 , 120 , where he telleth us , that these Councils did not give the original to set forms of Prayer , but only established some sanctions about them . We are not enquiring about the original of forms of prayer , nor do believe that these Councils gave the original to them ; but we are enquiring into the original of Bishops , or Church-officers commanding the same forms of prayer to be used by all Ministers subject to their jurisdiction ; and commanding Ministers to perform their Ministerial acts of Prayer , either wholly , or in the greatest part , not by their own gifts , but by forms which others had made for them ; and we say , the Council of Mela in St. Augustines time was the first record we have of that , and that but in that Province , and upon a particular occasion . The third Council of Carthage is mentioned by Caranza , and by Chytraeus , but it is not to be found in the ancient account of Councils wrote before the year 900 in Greek , and Translated by Dr. Pappas , and printed at Strasburgh , 1621. Justellus in his African Code hath no such Canon as this is . Justellus in his Notes , Praef ▪ p. 35. will not deny but that there was such a third Council of Carthage , as Caranza gives us an account of ; because Zonaras and Balsamon , and his own Collection ( which was , he saith , a most ancient Manuscript of Nic. Faber ) mentions such a Synod , but he saith it made but 21 Canons , not 50 ; and the other Canons ascribed to that Council , the rest belong to a Council held at Carthage , 419 , in the time of Pope Boniface ; which he saith is evident from the Acts of the Synod . For Boniface was not Bishop when Caesarius and Atticus were Consuls . We are therefore come to the year 419 , when it is said , but with no great certainty , that there was a Council at Carthage , where were 44 Bishops who made this Canon , That none in their prayers should name the Father for the Son , nor the Son for the Father . [ How could they do that , if the Church had set them their form ? ] And when they ministred at the altar , their prayers should be directed to the Father , [ what needed this , if their form were set them ? ] and whatsoever prayers any made for himself , he should not use them before he had communicated them to his more skilful brethren . I cannot understand sense , if this Canon doth not prove , that Ministers were at this time at liberty publickly to pray by the use of their own gifts ; for if they were tyed to a certain form made by others , there was no fear of their using the name of the Father for the Son , or the name of the Son for the Father ; or that they should not direct their prayers to the Father , that being the sense of the Church , whose forms they were tyed to ; to say nothing of the latter part of the Canon , which apparently giveth Ministers liberty to make prayers for their use , only obligeth them to take the advice of their more experienced brethren ( in that erroneous and most dangerous time ) before they publickly used them . So that I conclude , this Canon is a full proof , there were no stated forms at this time , which was 419 years after Christ , used or injoined in the African Church . Whereas our Brother saith , ( very critically ) That transcribing ( properly here intended ) supposeth a form . I answer , the words are describit sibi in Caranza . Our Author knows that describo , in a hundred instances might be given him , signifies no more than to write down . Hoc quam vehementer ad me pertineat in iis quas tibi illi reddent literis descripsi , saith Tully , who did not use to transcribe his Letters out of other mens copies . Besides , admitting our Brothers criticism , yet the form might be his own , and he only write a fair , out of a foul copy . What he saith further about the words in the former part of the Canon , from which we conclude no form was then in use , at least not enjoined , he yields the case , in saying , That there were various forms then used in that Church , some made by hereticks . Then there was no one form enjoined and used ; nor doth the Canon say they should use none but the stated forms appointed by that Church ; it only saith , That in their prayers they should not name the Father for the Son , nor the Son for the Father ; and that all prayers ( which was the will of Christ ) should be directed to the first person in the Trinity , to the Father . § . 10. Our Author triumpheth in the Council of Mela , or Milevis ( as he calls it ) that ▪ he saith , declared against the use of any other forms than those established by the Council . It doth so indeed , but not then those established by the Church . That Council considering the state of their Province at that time , thought fit to order some forms , and seems to tye up the Ministers of that Province at that time to the use of them , and no other so much is granted : but whereas our Author saith , That we may as well conclude from our Act of Vniformity , as from these Councils , that they gave the first original to forms of Prayer , because they are thereby established . We answer , If in England we had not had the use of forms of Prayer established by the Canon-law in times of Popery , and by Acts of Parliament in the time of Edw. 6. and Q. Elizabeth , under favour we think we might have concluded , that the Act of Vniformity 1662 , had given the first original to such an imposition or use . And till our Author ( which he hath not yet done ) can bring us any Canon of ancient date that commands such an universal use of forms of Prayer in any considerable part of the Church , we hope we may conclude , that this was the original of such commands or usage ; and this was in the fifth Century when the truths in matter of Doctrine , as well as Rites , were in a great measure corrupred , as I may possibly shew hereafter . But for this Council too , It is true , there was a Council held at Mela 402 years after Christ in the time of Pope Innocent the first ; if we may believe Caranza , Chytraeus , and others , it was held when Arcadius and Honorius were Emperours . That Province was ( as to the Ministry ) unmeasurably tainted with Pelagianism ; their eight first Canons are against his Doctrine ; it will not be amiss to give the Reader the sum of those Canons , from whence he may judg , That it was reasonable , that until the Church could be purged of that leaven , considering the great corruption of the Ministers , such a restriction should be put upon the Ministers of that Province as to their publick prayers . Can. 1. It pleased all the Bishops met together in this Synod to ordain what things were defined in this Synod , That whosoever shall say that the first man Adam was made mortal , so as whether he sinned or no , he should die , not because of the merit of sin , but from a necessity of nature , Let him be Anathema . Can. 2. It also pleased them , That if any shall deny that young Infants are to be baptized , or shall say that they are baptized for the remission of sins , but they draw no such original sin from Adam which should be washed away in the laver of Baptism , from whence it followeth that in them the form of Baptism [ for the remission of sin ] is not tru ' , but false , Let him be Anathema . Because what the Apostle saith can be no otherwise understood , than as the Church hath always understood it : Rom. 5. By one man sin entred into the world , and death by ▪ sin , and so death passed over all men because all had sinned . For by reason of this rule of faith , little ones who have actually committed no sin , are therefore truly baptized for the remission of sins , that the filth contracted by Generation , may be cleansed away by Regeneration . Can. 3. It also pleased them , &c. That if any one say that the Grace of God by which we are justified by Jesus Christ our Lord , was only of force for remission of sins which are committed , and not also for our assistance against future commissions , he should be Anathema . Can. 4. If any one shall say , That the grace of God through Jesus Christ doth no further help us against sinning , than as it revealeth to us , and openeth our understanding to understand the commandments of God , that we may know what to desire and to avoid ; and that it is no effect of grace to enable us to love , and to do what we know we ought to do , let him be Anathema . For whereas the Apostle saith , Knowledg puffeth up , Charity edifieth , It is impious to believe that there is a word of the grace of God for that which puffeth up , and none for that which edifieth , both being the gift of God , both to know what we ought to do , and to love to do it , that through the edifying of love our knowledg may ●…t puff us up . As it is written concerning God , That he teacheth man knowledg ; so it is also written , Love is from God. Can. 5. It also pleased them to Decree , That if any shall say that we are therefore justified by Grace , that we may more easily by Grace fulfil what we are commanded to do by the power of our own will ; although if grace were not given , though it would not be easie , yet it would be possible to fulfil the commands of God , let him be Anathema . For our Lord speaketh concerning obedience to Gods commandments , when he saith , Without me you can do nothing : He doth not say , Without me you cannot without difficulty do any thing . Can. 6. It also pleased them , &c. That whereas St. John saith , If we say we have no sin , we deceive our selves , and the truth is not in us ; whosoever shall say this is the sense , That out of humility we ought to say we have no sin , Let him be Anathema . For it followeth , and is added by the Apostle , But if we confess our sins , he is just and righteous to forgive them , and to purge us from all iniquity . From whence it is plain , that the Apostle speaks not of speaking in humility , but speaking in truth . For the Apostle might have said , If we say we have no sin , we extol our selves , and there is no humility in us . But he saying , We deceive our selves , and there is no truth in us ; he plaine●● sheweth , that he who saith he hath no sin , did not speak truth , but what was false . Can. 7. It also pleased them , &c. That whosoever should say that the Saints in the Lords-Prayer praying , Forgive us our sins , do not speak it for them , for it is not for them necessary , but for other sinners in the congregation ; and therefore the several Saints do not say , Forgive me my sins , but forgive us our sins , that the righteous man might be understood not to put up that petition so much for himself as for others , Let him be Anathema . For St. James was holy and righteous , when he said , In many things we offend all . Why doth he say all , but that his sentence might agree with that in the Psalm , Enter not into judgment with thy servant , O Lord , because in thy sight shall no flesh be justified . And that in Solomon's Prayer ▪ There is none that liveth and sinneth not . And that in Job , He sealeth up the head of all men , that every man might know his infirmity . Vpon which holy and righteous Daniel speaking in his Prayer in the Plural Number saith , We have sinned , we have done wickedly , &c. What he speaketh there , he speaketh both truly and humbly ; and that none might think as some now do , that he did not speak of his own but of his peoples sins , he afterwards saith , When I pray'd , and confessed my sins , and the sins of my people ▪ unto the Lord our God : He would not say , our sins , but my sins , and the sins of my people , as a Prophet foreseeing , there would be some arise as now , who would ill understand it . Can. 8. It also pleased them , &c. That if any should say , That the words of the Lords Prayer , Forgive us our debts , are only used by the Saints to signifie their humility , not to express a truth , Let him be Anathema . For how can one be induced in prayer to lye , and that not to men , but to God , with his lips desiring that his sins might be forgiven him , when in heart he thought he had no sins to be forgiven ? I have been a little more large in this story , because I am pretty confident and dare challenge all our adversaries to give us but one proof , that any part of the Church before this time assembled in any Council , took upon them to impose Forms of Prayer to be used by all Ministers within their Jurisdiction . If some men made themselves Forms , and used them , they yet served God in their Ministry in the use of their own gifts ; this signifieth just nothing to our case , who have known divers worthy men do the like . We have now the case ; here was a Council of worthy men , all relating to the Province of Numidia , who met at Mela. The occasion of their meeting was the woful spreading of the Doctrine of Pelagius , who denied Original Sin , Assisting Grace ; or that justified persons could sin , or need beg the pardon of sin . Many , if not the greatest part of their Ministers were tainted with these Opinions . In this distress to stop the diffusing this venom , and that the people through the error , ignorance , or carelesness of their Ministry , might not be without any to go before them in publick prayers , who could or would put up due confessions or necessary petitions for them ; having first in eight Canons condemned the Doctrines of Pelagius , they make their twelfth Canon in these terms : It also pleased them ▪ &c. That those prayers , or Masses , or Prefaces , or Commendations , or Impositions of hands , which shall be approved in the Council , be used of all ; and that no other be used in the Church , but what shall be treated on , and approved in a Synod , lest perhaps something should be composed contrary to the true faith , either through ignorance or carelesness . I observe , 1. That this Canon extends to all Ministerial services , not to prayers only ; as to all , they were limited to forms . 2. That it was not to any forms that before this time had been enjoined or used in this or in any other Church , but such as should first be treated of and approved in a Synod or Council . 3. That it was done in a case of woful distress , when the Ministers were known to be so corrupted in their judgments , that they could neither put up such confessions , or supplications as they ought , they could not confess original sin , nor pray for assisting grace , nor for pardon of sins , renewing after Justification . 4. I observe , this was in the fifth Century ; and if we will believe Vossius , it must be after 505 , for he saith , Histor . Pelag. l. 1. c. 3. that in that year ( Chrysostome being in banishment , and near his death ) he first spread his Doctrines . Others make it 402. It must be in the Popedom of Innocent 1. ( who was not Pope 18 months ) for Aurelius was President there in the notion of his Legate . Take this story in its circumstances , it 's far from a justifiable authority to maintain that it was the judgment of the Church in the purer ages , That forms of prayer might be lawfully enjoined all Ministers , whether under such circumstances or no. Their ends were , that the poor people might have due prayers put up for them , and be taught the Doctrine of Original sin , the impotency of mans will to what was spiritually good ; the need of assisting grace ; that they sin seven times a day , and had need beg pardon . That original sin might in prayer be confessed , and the impotency of human nature to that which is truly good , with their daily renewing sins , that so pardon might be beg'd for them , and assistance of Divine grace against them , and unto spiritual duty . How should this end have been obtained in that corrupted state , but by set-forms of Prayers and Sermons too ? Should they on the sudden have turned out all these Ministers , it is not probable , they on the sudden could have found enough fitted for the work . Because in this exigent this Council judged it lawful , shall it therefore be concluded to b● the judgment even of those few Bishops in that Council , That it is lawful for any in any state of a Church to do the like ? Besides , what hindred but that according to this Canon every Minister might compose his own prayers , and bring them to be approved in a Council . § . 11. The truth is , this proved a sad president ; all know how long Peldgius his Doctrine spread a very great part of the Church , how many Councils assembled against it . 'T is very probable other Churches followed this Canon not in force of it , for it could oblige none but the Province of Numidia ; but as thinking it lawful : till at length , as the Grandieur of the Romish Bishops required a pack of ignorant and sottish Ministers , of which there was a remarkable plenty in the sixth and seventh age , it crept into a custom , and a piece of Ecclesiastical Common Law. But we shall hereafter shew that the practice of the visible Church after 400 years in Rituals , is not very imitable by those that will make the word of God a light to their feet ; but we must go back a little to consider what our Author insinuates , p. 105. of the Liturgies which the Papists have invented , ( in all probability ) and intituled St. Peter , St. James , and St. Mark , and St. John too ; as also those which they have intituled , St. Chrysostome , St. Basil , and St. Ambrose to● . § . 12. For the former , our Reverend Brother speaketh thus , pag. 105. And I yield it most probable ( though even Protestant writers herein differ ) that the ancient Roman , Jerusalem and Alexandrian Offices , were called the Liturgies of St. Peter , St. James , and St. Mark , because of their certain early use in the Churches where they presided , though it is not certain they were composed by them ; this being mentioned by no ancient writer of the first Centuries . Nor do I doubt but the Liturgy or Anaphoca of St. John , and that of the twelve Apostles , are supposititious . From which I observe , 1. That if during the time that the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost lasted , the Ministerial Services were by the Apostles performed by them , it is very absurd to say Peter , James , Mark and John , who all were possessed of them , prayed by prescribed forms . 2. I observe , our Reverend Brother ( I hope unadvisedly ) hath granted here the Papists a great point , That Peter was the first Bishop of Rome ; for he calls Rome the Church where he resided ( for we know James resided at Hierusalem , Mark at Alexandria ) this is both a liberal and groundless grant — Magni hoc mercentur Achivi . 3. Did Saint Peter , James , and Mark , themselves use them ? No , saith our Author , that is incertain ; it is false , and our Author yields it , in saying they ministred by their extraordinary gifts . Now we read of no Liturgy came down in the days of Pentecost ; was it by others that came after them ? who , or how long after ? because he saith they were of certain early use in those Churches ; how doth that appear ? doth he account 450 years after ( when Socrates tells us there were not two to be found speaking the same things in their prayers ) early ? 4. He acknowledgeth he speaks without proof , and by guess , for he hath no writer in the first Centuries that mentions them . But seeing this Reverend Author can say no more for them , let us see if nothing can be said against them : That of St. Mark , and St. Peter , the Papists ( and they know best I believe ) make to be both the same ; if they be , the learned Morney hath supplied us with enough to say against them . 1. The 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , are found often enough in that Liturgy , which argues it to be made more than 300 years after St. Peter and St. Mark were in Heaven , or else there had been no reason for so long a conrest as was in the Church about those things ; St. Peter's and St. Mark 's Liturgy had in a minute determined the business . 2. In that Liturgy are several prayers for Monks and Monasteries , persons and things never thought of till some hundreds of years after Christ . 3. There is also mention of Temples , Altars , Incensings for remission of sins ; did St. Peter / or St. Mark ( think we ) know many such things ? 4. There are prayers for the Pope , who commenced 800 years after Peter and Mark , were dead . 5. There is also in St. Mark 's prayers for Subdeacons , Readers , Singers ; nay Mark is made to pray that God would save the City of Alexandria for the sake of his Martyr S Mark. Can our Reverend Brother think these things were of any early use at Alexandria ? how are our judgments oft-times bribed by our passions ? For St. James his Liturgy : 1. How often is the Virgin in it called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the Mother of God ; when in the Synod of Ephesus and Chalcedon against Nestorius and Eutyches , the Fathers had much ado to find one or two places where she was so called in Origen and Eusebius ; yet the latter lived 400 years after Christ . All know what a stir was 300 years after Christ to get Christ agreed equal with his Father in essence . This Liturgy , had it been known then , had prevented all that ; for He and his Father are every where called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . The Hymn called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which was not composed till 400 years after . Here are also prayers for Monasteries , unknown for more than 300 years after . In it there is a prayer that we might find grace with confession ; a name , and a prayer not known long after . There is in it mention made of Temples and Altars , ( which Christians had none of for 300 years ) of offering incense for remission of sins , &c. not like St. James his Doctrine . There are in it prayers for the dead , to the Virgin Mary , which James never made ; and the Doxology , Glory be to the Father , &c. and the Hymn , Glory to God in the highest , &c. are in it too , brought into use in the Church-Liturgies many hundreds of years after St. James his time . Yet we must believe that these Liturgies were of early use , and these were but additions since ; though 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 be woven into the best part , Quod volumus facile credimus . The Reader may read much more in the incomparably learned Lord of Morney's book de Missa , l , 1. cap. 2. from whence what we have here said is taken . Nor do I see how it can be avoided but if Peter , Mark and James were the Authors of these pretended Liturgies , they must be of equal authority with the Scriptures , as that Noble Lord saith . And being things of no better reputation than they are , though our Reverend Brother hath said little for them , yet he hath said a great deal too much for a person of so valuable a judgment , and learning , and sobriety , to speak . § . 13. We shall come now to hear what he saith to the pretended Liturgies of St. Ambrose , St. Chrysostome , and St. Basil . They all flourishrished above 350 years after Christ ; Basil in the year 370 , Ambrose about the year 374 , Chrysostome about the year 398 ; Basil died 379 , Chrysostome 407 , Ambrose 397 ; all these are said to have had Liturgies , or Forms of prayers ; and the Papists can shew us the copies of them , they say . But this is nothing to us , unless it can be proved that they were used by any but themselves , yea and that not voluntarily ( that might be out of some Ministers sense that they had not gifts fit to pray with ) but at the command of some Council , or of these Bishops . But let us hear what our Author saith in Libertas Ecclesiastica , pag. 106 , 107. There are so many Testimonies , that St. Chrysostome , St. Ambrose , and St. Basil , were framers of Liturgses , that I do not see how any can rationally doubt thereof ; but that these Liturgies have undergone divers alterations is both apparent , and is very reasonable to be imagined . And he who shall compare the Greek copy of St. Basil's Liturgy with the Syriack , or its Version , both which are represented together by Cassander , will find them so vastly different from each other , that he must either conclude great alterations to have past upon them , or that they never were originally the same . This is all that he saith of them . That Ambrose , Basil , Chrysostome , and others , might set themselves in order for reading the Scriptures , and compose prayers for their personal use , may be true for ought any body can tell . Divers Divines that we have known have done the like . That divers Ministers might out of a reverence to these persons , and distrusting their own gifts , use the forms which they had made , may be true too . We have seen Mr. Shutes , Dr. Holdsworths , and many others forms of prayer which they ordinarily used before their Sermons . And possibly some out of respect to them may have made use of them ; whether they did what they ought , is the question , That the Liturgies now extant , and that go under their name , as they now are to be seen , were none of theirs , is out of question . Liturgias has ownes falsi postulo , saith the most learned Lord of Morney , de l. Missa , cap. 6. Nor was he a person used to speak rashly . He chargeth them all for counterfeits , and sufficiently proves it . He shews that in those Liturgies there were prayers for the dead , prayers to the Virgin Mary . There is the Hymn called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , not known in the Church till more than an hundred years after their time . In Chrysostome's , the Priest is brought in worshipping the Crucifix and the Virgin Mary , ( all know the worshipping Images came in long after ) , Chrysostome and many other Saints are invoked in his Liturgy , who lived many years after Chrysostome was dead . There is in it a prayer for the Emperor Alexius , and the Oecumenical Bishop Pope Nicholas , who both lived 700 years after Chrysostome was dead . It is true , the Papists adoring these Liturgies , we make use of them against them to prove that the Sacrament was used to be given in both kinds , and that there were no private Masses ; but these pretended Liturgies were most certainly made many hundreds of years after their times who are made the Authors . If they were not , the Papists have more to say for their Holy-water , their Paganish Incensings , and Wax-candles burning at noon-day , their Crossings and Crucifixes , their Invocation of the Virgin Mary and Saints , than Protestants ever thought they had . But our Author will allow them to have undergone divers alterations . We thank him for that ; but how shall it appear to us that they were not intire new compositions made a thousand years after Christ , that by them the Papists might justifie their Mass-book , their Doctrine and Ceremonies ? Or how shall it appear that any Ministers in Chrysostome's , Ambrose's , or Basil's Diocesses , were required by them to perform their Ministerial acts in prayer ? We challenge any one to make that good . And the making of forms , of the particular use of them by those that made them , or the voluntary use of them by other Ministers who distrusted their own abilities , or the requiring of the use of them in a time of general corruption of the Ministers , will not prove the lawfulness of the use of them by all Ministers under no such circumstances . Besides , the Canon of the Council of Mela , limiting their Ministers to such prayers as should first be approved in some Synod , is a strong presumption , that they knew of no Liturgies of St. Mathew , St. Mark , St. James , St. John , St. Peter , St. Ambrose , St. Basil , St. Chrysostome ; for they would then have named some of them , and restrained their Ministers to the use of them , or some of them ; and not still have ordered the making of more ; or rather given their Ministers liberty to make their prayers themselves , but not to use them till they had been debated and agreed in some Synod ( which I take to be the truest sense of that Canon ) nor needed the Council of Carthage to have ordered their Ministers to confer about their prayers with their more experienced brethren , if seven or eight Liturgies had been then known , and so authentick . § . 14. But yet we must find it more than 300 years after this before any Church or Magistrate took upon them under penalties to command Ministers to minister not by the use of their own gifts , but by the prescribed forms of others . Let us but in the case hear Durandus , a Papist high enough , speak , and that in a book which he called , A Rationale of Divine Offices , l. 5. cap. 2. his words are these : Theodosius ( who by the way lived 380 ) intreated Pope Damasus , that some Ecclesiastical office might be made by some Ecclesiastical Catholick person ; upon which Damasus commanded Saint Hierome who was then in Bethlehem with Paula Eustochium , and some other Virgins , to abide there and to make a Liturgy for the Churches , because he was well skilled in Hebrew , Greek , Chaldee , and Latin , which he obediently did ; appointing how much of the Psalms should be read each day of the week ; and ordering the reading of the Gospels and the Epistles out of the Old and New Testament . [ Where note , this is all that most superstitious Ritualist could find that Saint Hierome did . ] It was approved by Pope Damasus , and made a rule . Gelasius ( who was Pope , and lived 400 ) , and Gregory the Great ( who lived 600 years after Christ ) added Prayers and Hymns , the Lessons and the Gospels ; Ambrose , Gelasius and Gregory , saith he , added the Gradualia , Tractus Hallelujah , other Doctors of the Church added other parts . Thus far Durandus . This seemeth to be much of the truth . Platina in the life of Damasus tells us , that he first ordered Hierome's Translation to be read in the Churches . That the Psalms should be read alternalim , part by the Minister , part by the people . That Glory be to the Father , to the Son , and to the Holy Ghost , should be repeated at the end of every Psalm ; and the Confession at the beginning of the celebration of the Mass was also ordered by him . Now when was this ? It was above 380 years after Christ . Nor have we yet any record of a Liturgy , but an order by Hierome prescribed for reading the Scripture , and a Confession before the Sacrament , made by Pope Damasus , and Gloria Pater by him added to every Psalm . The next Pope to him was Siricius , ( that learned man , who in great passion urged , That Priests might not marry , because the Apostle Paul tells us . Those that are in the flesh cannot please God. ) The next to him was Anastasius , he ( saith Platina ) ordained the Priests standing up at the Gospel . Innocent the first succeeded him , who spent his time about preserving the Faith against Pelagius . I do not find that Sosemus the next Pope added much , but he sent Faustenus and two Presbyters to the Council of Carthage to let them know they ought to do nothing without the consent of the Bishop of Rome ( saith Platina ) . Boniface after him did little : the next , which was Coelestinus , ordered Davids Psalms to be sung by turns before the Sacrifice , ( so was the Lords Supper now called ) . The next Successor Sixtus 1. his superstition evaporated in buildings , and adorning them . I find not that the four next Successors , Leo , Simplicius , Hilary or Faelix did any thing as to the Liturgy , nor indeed is much said of any till we come to Gregory Anno 600 ; Pamelius saith , he made a Lectionary , directing the order for the Scripture to be read an Antiphonary ; directing some Responds , and an order for administring the Sacraments ; but he could command no further than his own Church : for it was five or six years after this before the Pope of Rome was set up as Vniversal Bishop ( a title which Gregory refused ) by Phocas , who killing his Master had usurped the Empire . Yet little was done for almost 200 years after this ; the continual stirs caused by the Lombards , giving the Emperour no rest . About the year 800 , Charles the Great being Emperour , Pope Adrian moveth him to establish a Liturgy by a Civil Edict , and obtained it ; and Durandus telleth us that Pope Gregories Liturgy was it . To which Charles the Great compelled all Ministers by threatnings and punishments ; and this is the first authority we have for any thing of this nature : From whence we observe , That the first imposing of a Common-Prayer Book was in favour to Pope Adrian , and began with a persecution . Nor after this was it glibly swallowed ; for Mr. Fox amongst the Protestants , and Durandus amongst the Papists , tell us a pleasant story of one Eugenius complaining to Pope Adrian at the imposing of Gregory's Common-Prayer Book , ( it should seem he liked some other , possibly that which went about for St. Ambroses , better ) but it seems the complaint ran so high , that some Fathers just come from a Council met again to decide the matter , spent a night in prayer ( having first laid both the Common-prayer Books , that of Ambrose , and that of Gregory on St. Peter's Altar ) to desire of God by some sign to shew which of those Liturgies he would have universally used . In the morning they went in and found that of St. Ambrose lying in his place , that of Gregory torn in pieces , and scattered up and down . From whence they concluded that it was the will of God that St. Ambrose his Office should lye still , and be used only in his own Church , Gregories should be scattered over the world . And thus the Roman Mass-book ( which is one point in which we differ from the Papists ) was confirmed by a miracle too . He that asked the question , By what Common-prayer book the Fathers prayed that night when both their books were lockt up ? Might have remembred that we have heard of a Liturgy of St. Peter's , only one would think that if he had been Bishop of Rome he might have been angry to have seen his Liturgy thrown out , and one brought in patcht up by so many hundred years his Juniors , especially having so much superstitious stuff in it , which he never owned . It may be it was for this he caused it to be torn so that night , not enduring such trash should lye upon his Altar ; but then the Fathers were miserably out in their judgments upon the cause . This is the truth as to the pretended antiquity of Liturgies , and as to the imposition of them , by Canon-law from 600 to 800 ; by Canon and Civil Laws 800 years after Christ . § . 15. In further proof of this , I shall but offer what the Reader may see in Print , and what I know to be true . It pleased his most Excellent Majesty to grant his Commission out under the Broad Seal , dated 25 March , in the 13th year of his Reign , to 12 Bishops , and to divers others ; requiring them amongst other things — to advise upon , and review the Book of Common Prayer ; comparing the same with the most ancient Liturgies which have been used in the Church in the primitive and purest times , &c. The aforesaid Commissioners did so , and being divided into two Parties : the party which in some things dissented , made this reply to that passage , ( It is to be found p. 11. of the Printed account of their Proceedings ) Prop. 19. As to that passage in his Majesties Commission , wherein we are authorized and required to compare the present Liturgy with the most ancient Liturgies which have been used in the Church , in the purest , and most Primitive times : We have in obedience to his Majesties Commission , made enquiry , but cannot find any Records of known credit , concerning any entire forms of Liturgies within the first 300 years , which are confessed to be , as the most Primitive , so the purest ages of the Church nor any Imposition of Liturgies for some hundreds of years after . We find indeed some Liturgical - forms fathered upon St. Basil , St. Chrysostome , St. Ambrose ; but we have not seen any Copies of them , but such as give sufficient evidence to us , to conclude them either wholly spurious , or so interpotlated , that we cannot make a judgment wha in them hath any Primitive authority . This Proposition was given in with the rest , by these Divines , to the rest of the Reverend Bishops and Doctors of Divinity , who made the opposite party ; and it was not only signed by Dr. Manton , Dr. Jacomb , Mr. Calamy , and many others , but by the most Reverend and Learned Dr. Reynolds , at that time Bishop of Norwich . Here ( if ever ) the proof should have been produced of Liturgies generally used , and enjoyned in the Church in the purest and most Primitive times . Let us now see what Reply was made ; the Reader shall find it in p. 75. of the Printed account . It is the 16 Section of the opposite Commissioners Reply in these words . Sect. 16. That there were ancient Liturgies in the Church , is evident , St. Chrysostoms , St. Basils , and others ; and the Greeks tell us of St. James , much elder than they ; and we find not in all ages , whole Liturgies ; yet it is certain that there were such in eldest times , by those parts which are extant . Sursum Corda , &c. Gloria Patri , &c. Benedicte , Hymnus , Cherubinus vere dignum est & justum , &c. Dominus vobiscum , & cum spiritu tuo , with divers others . Though those that are extant may be interpolated , yet such things as are found in them all , censistent to Catholick and Primitive Doctrine , may well be presumed to have been from the first , especially since we find no Originals of those Liturgies from ancient Councils . This is all they say . What was replyed to this , is too large to transcribe , the Reader may read it in the aforementioned Printed Account of the Proceedings , p. 76 , 77 , 78 , 79 , 80 , 81 , 82 , 83. But because every Reader may not have that book at hand , I shall add a few words . We know none will deny , but that particular men might even from Christ's time have by them forms of Prayer , either of their own composure , or other mens ; but that from the beginning all Ministers in any Church were tyed to them , that we deny , nor can it be proved . It cannot be proved , that in the first 400 years there were any entire forms of Liturgy ; that the Ministers might before they began to pray , say , Sursum Corda , Lift up your hearts ; or Dominus Vobiscum , The Lord be with you ; and the people of course say , And with thy Spirit ; are far from proving , that there were any books directing them so to do . It is known that the Doxology , Glory be to the Father , Son and Holy Ghost , was not in any general use for more than 300 years after Christ ; In the whole Answer there is nothing to prove , that for 500 years after Christ , there were any such forms as all Ministers in any one Church or Province , were commanded to use , and to perform their Ministry in prayer by , without varying from it . But the Reader may at his leasure read much more in the Judicious Reply made by the Commissioners on the other side . And if more could have been said upon this argument , for the Antiquity of Liturgies , it is not probable it would have been omitted by 12 Bishops , and so many learned men besides , several of which have since that time been made Bishops , and some of them are so at this day . § . 16. Our Reverend Brother talks therefore at a great deal too high a rate , when he tells us p. 110. of Forms of prayer embraced by the ancient Church , whiles it retained its soundness , and before the corruptions and distempers of the Church of Rome took place ; if by embraced , he means used generally by all Ministers , or commanded so to be used — and of our opposing our judgment against the concurrent judgment and practice of the Church of Christ , in so many several Ages and Nations , and against the determination of God himself under the Old Testament , and our blessed Saviour under the New. These words are not the words of Truth and Soberness , nor do they savour of that spirit of Truth and Love which we always had thought did dwell in our Brother ; For if he means that the Ministers and Christians of all ages have thought it lawful and expedient to draw up forms of Prayer , that by them the weaker might be taught to pray ; nay , that those Ministers or People who have not attained that gift , may use them ( still coveting and labouring for that gift ) until they have attained it ; none will deny it . But all this is nothing to the purpose ; I know no Nonconformist will deny it , but say , Let them be in the Church , and for that use still . The Nonconformists in their Debates upon his Majesties Commission , would never have tendred some Emendations of our Liturgy to the Bishops , much less a new Liturgy or form , if they had been of this mind . But if our Reverend Brother means that they have been in the Church required to be used by all the Ministers in their publick Ministration , in all ages , or in those ages before the Corruptions , Idolatry and Superstition of the Papists crept in ; there is not the least proof made , either by our Reverend Brother , or any else that we could ever see , of a word of truth in the assertion . § . 17. Let us now take a view of the State of the Church , from the year 500 , to the year 1500 ; and see whether the Church was then in such a State , that we may conclude all lawful that was , during that time , admitted in practice . All Protestants will deny it , especially from the year 700. But let us examine a little . In the 5th Century , they had got Images into Churches at Constantīnople : The Image of the Manger ( which Chrysostome complains of ) and of the Virgin Mary ( saith Nicephorus ) : they had got Altars also ( Augustine , Chrysostome and Salvian often mention them ) ; they had also got in Candles ; using holy Water in Baptism ; they had also got in Vnction , and the custom of giving the Lords Supper to children after Baptism ; together with the wearing of a white garment after that Sacrament . They in many places mingled water with the wine in the Supper . Exorcisms were also crept in , as Augustin tells us , lib. 20. de Civ . Dei. Lent also crept in , in this age , as we learn from Augustine , Cyril , Chrysostome and Maximus . Nicephorus tells us also of abundance of Reliques now in fashion . Monks and Monasteries began in this age to be very thick . The Doctrine of the Church was miserably invaded by Pelagius . They began in this age to put only single persons into Ministry in the Latin Church , as we may learn from the Council of Toledo , from Augustine and Leo. They had now also brought in many new orders of Ministers , Acolecthi , Exorcists , Subdeacons , &c. From the year 500 , to the year 600 , we shall yet find a stranger face of the Church ; the Doctrines of Freewill , Justification by works , Prayers to the dead , Satisfactions for sin , Purgatory , &c. were in this age preached . In this age came in the Dedications and Consecrations of Churches ; the Consecration of Wells for Baptism , the Oyl and Chrysm ; the Consecrations of Altars , Cups , Corporals ; the Mass , offerings for the dead ; the seven Letanies , Rogations ; the seven Canonical hours ; In short , almost the whole fardel of the Popish Superstitions . It is no great charge to any conscientious man , to say he differs in some things from the Ruling part of the Church 5 or 600 years after Christ , and that he judgeth it both inexpedient and unlawful for him to do what they did in 40 particulars . We must now take our leave of the Romish Synagouge , from whose practices at this time , all Protestants in the world differ in a multitude of things , both as to Doctrine , Worship and Discipline ; we must go seek for the true Church the next 1000 years in the Valleys of Piedmont , in France , in the Provinces of Languedec , Provence and Dauphiny , amongst the Albigenses , the poor people of Lions , and the Waldenses ; indeed mostly in the Valleys of Piedmont , where we shall find them coopt up in the time of Innocent the Third , after St. Dominick had fired him to engage Simon Montford , with the French Kings leave , to destroy some hundred thousands of them ; those that escaped , went to their Brethren in the Valleys of Piedmont ; some of them , possibly , got into Bohemia , amongst the Taborites , Piccards , &c. Nor could I ever meet with any that could give me account of any Liturgies they used , or which were imposed on them , or by them ; nor do I remember that the Piccards , when they came to Luther about 1520 , or the Deputies of those of Piedmont , when they came to advise with Oecolampadius 1530 ; though they gave him an account of their Faith , Rites , and Order , yet ever mentioned any thing of Liturgy ; yet these two bodies of people are the only visible Church we can give any account of , retaining any Degrees of Purity in Doctrine , Worship or Discipline for a thousand years , which is double the time that the Church kept any degrees of Purity after Christ . We will freely grant , that after the year 600 , the Mass-book was ( Canonically ) imposed by Pope Gregory , and within 200 years more by Charles the Great ; and except in the Valleys of Piedmont , and in Bohemia , the Priests generally both used that , and after 1200 , made their Maker , worshipped Images , prayed for the Dead , and prayed to Saints , said their Service in Latin. But I hope it is no prejudice to any Protestant , that he owns no relation to the Church that did so for a thousand years together , and doth so still . And now our Reverend Brother sees what his concurrent testimony of the Church in all ages comes to , till the year 1520 , or thereabouts ; for ten of those fifteen ages we hope our Reverend Brother agreeth with them no better than we ; and if he will leave Rome , and follow the Woman into the Wilderness , where God hid her for 1260 days , he will find no Liturgy she carried with her , or commanded all her Ministers there to use . If our Brother will resolve to abide with the Red Dragon , that hath seven heads , and ten horns , and seven crowns , after he hath with his tail drawn down the third part of the Stars of Heaven ; we mean no more than keep his eye only upon the stately company at Rome , that after the year 600 , call'd themselves falsly the true Church , the only Catholick Church ; we cannnot help it . We believe , that all along God had his number of hidden ones , within the challenged Jurisdiction of that Church ; but for the visible governing part of them , we leave them soon after Gregory's time , believing them far more like a Synagogue of Satan , than a Church of God , whose practice should be any thing of a law or president to us . Thus far we have delivered our selves from the vulgar , and indeed no other than a poor popular prejudice of a dissent from the concurrent judgment of the Church in all ages . We consent with the five first ages , and for the ten latter , we also agree with the pure Church of God in Bohemia , and the Valleys of Piedmont for ought we could ever hear proved , relating to their practice . For other Churches ; no reformed Churches this day in the world , but thinks twenty things unlawful , which both the Greek and Latin Churches in those ages practised . § . 17. We have but one prejudice more to deliver our selves from , and that is the Judgment of the Reformed Churches since the Reformation . To try which , let us but again repeat what we say . We say Forms of Prayer are in themselves good and lawful , Good as means of Instruction , and lawful to be so used ; yea , and also for Devotion , until men have obtained an ability without them fitly to express their minds to God in Prayer ; or when though they have that gift , yet , through the hand of God , in some natural inability they are hindred from the use of it . We say also , that where in a Nation or Church there is a multitude of Ministers needful , so that it cannot be expected that a sufficient number should be found so competently qualified as they should be ; it is reasonable there should be forms made , which Ministers may use , or not use , according as they find their abilities . But we say it appeareth to us unlawful for those to use them , to whom God hath given such an ability , for the reasons before mentioned . Now let us see how much in this we in judgment differ from any Reformed Churches . The first Reformed Churches were in Germany and Switzerland ; whether those to whom Zuinglius was the head , or the Lutherans , were the first , is hard to say : They by degrees abolished the Mass : they would have done it at first if they could . But alas ! their people were newly come out of Popery , and they must drive the pace they would go . Let our Author , if he can , shew us that any of the Churches adhering to Zuinglius ( whose Reformation was the purest ) had any such form of Prayers , as no Ministers might vary from , or was enjoyned to use under a penalty . The Liber Ritualis he speaks of in Bohemia , and the Agenda in the Palatinate , he will find to be no more than a general Directory and Order , no prescription of words and phrases . Let any one read Scultetus his Annales Rerun Evangelicarum , he will find the Agenda of the Churches of Nordlingen , Walshat , Strasburgh , Zurich ; let him see if he can find any thing of a form of Prayer , excepting the Lords Prayer ; nor that imposed , but ordinarily used . It is true , Luther and his party were a little laxer , and Luther made a Mass-book , correcting much in the Popish Missal , but leaving in too much , to the great offence of his Brethren , as may be learned from another place of Scultetus . I know not but they might impose ( for Luther , ( though a great man ) yet was too much of a Dictator , and for every one to conform to his humors ) ; but yet I no-where have read that he did command his Missal to be read by all Ministers that adhered to him . And for what he did as to his composition of a Missal , it was rather judged to cross Carolostadius , and others , and uphold his notion of the Corporal presence of Christ , than for any other reason . Next to this was the Reformation of Geneva and England . For Geneva , what Mr. Calvin's judgment was , I cannot tell ( I have not his Epistles by me to examine Mr. F's Quotation ) ; but however he was but one man , though a great one , it should seem by the settlement there ; if it were his judgment when he wrote to the Protector , it is like it was altered , or his Colleagues were of another mind , or he only approved it for a time , in regard of the State of the Church , being newly crept out of Popery ; for in the French Liturgy there is no tying up Ministers to the use of their forms , though indeed they propose and commend some forms ; it saith — The Minister shall make such prayers as seem good to him , fitting for the time and matter he is in his Sermon to treat of . In another place — The form is according to the discretion of the Minister . — In a third place , They use this , or some like it . In a fourth place , He prayeth after this manner . What their practice is , I cannot tell . The work of our Reformation was slow , so as Scotland got the start of us , though we set out first . Dioclavius tells us , Alt. Damasc . p. 613. We have indeed in our Church Agenda , and an Order to be observed in our publick Devotion , but none is tyed either to the Prayers or Exhortations in our Liturgy ; they are proposed for Examples , &c. In all the 13 years ( saith he ) that I exercised the Ministry in that Church , I never , neither at Sacrament , nor in other parts of my Religious Serivce , used either the Prayers or Exhortations in our book , nor did many more ; every one was at liberty ; and it seems child-like to me to do otherwise . In England we used onother method , more conformable to the Saxon Reformation , than to that of Switzerland , Strasburgh , France or Scotland , or what was afterwards in Holland . Our Countrey was wholly Popish , our Priests zealous for them ; our common people so ignorant , that their Priests might have perswaded them , that it was their duty to eat Hay with an Horse ; not an English Bible to be found in the Nation , until the middle of King Henry 8. Reign . The Reformation went on under the Conduct of a Popish King till Edward the 6th came to the Crown . Our Reformers did not think fit at once to abolish all the Popish trash ; Though therefore they first turned much of the Popish Mass-book into English , leaving out much Idolatrous and Superstitious stuff , yet they left in it too much , which caused a second Common-Prayer-book to be made in the time of Edward the 6. though his whole Reign was but seven years ; then came Queen Mary , and destroyed all ; and the zealous Protestants went out of the Nation , fixing some at Frankfort , some at Basil , &c. At Frankfort the Ministers that first fixed there , used no prescribed forms in their publick worship , till at length Dr. Cox came amongst them with the Common-Prayer book , made in Edw. 6. time , which made that woful stir , of which we have an account in the book called , the Troubles of Frankfort . In short , Dr. Cox got the Magistrate on his side , and forced the rest away to Geneva , and other places . When Queen Elizabeth came to the Throne , all know how great a man Dr. Cox proved . By his means , and some of his stamp , the Common-Prayer-book was again revised , and published ; all Ministers enjoyned to use it : but what a dissent was from it , both all her Reign , and after that , all King James his Reign , is too sad a story to repeat . Whereas had it pleased God so to have moderated the spirits of our Bishops in the beginning of her Reign , that they had only composed a Liturgy , and left Ministers to a liberty ( as in all other Reformed Churches it is ) all had been quiet . It is very like that the most of the Ministers at that time being very little practiced in Praying , or in Preaching , would have used , and been studying to pray without it ; and long ere this we might have had flourishing Church shining in every corner with a Ministry that needed no book to have told them the words and syllables they must put up their prayers to God in . When , on the other side , these contests about this thing have carried some few into great extremes on both sides . Some on one side thinking that there is no true Prayer , but by the Liturgy , at which they are very devout ; but studying to shew all manner of slight and irreverence at other prayers ( believing them no true worship of God ) , no whole-faced Son of the Church must use any prayer in his family ; no Lady or Gentlewoman any other prayer in her Closet , but this Common-prayer . It was a great objection against a person of great Honour and Piety , appearing for Knight of the Shire in his County , though he constantly attended publick prayers , and received the Sacrament as constantly , that he used fanatick Prayers in his family , that is , his Chaplain there prayed not by the publick forms at all times . This madness ( not to say profaneness ) by the way is to us a sufficient argument against our use of any set publick forms in our Devotion ; we ought not to nurse up people in these most erroneous conceptions , to speak no worse of them . If people will adore humane constitutions at this rate , they must be to us Nehushtan . On the other side , this madness hath run some to that excess , that they will allow no forms to be lawful of any use , in any time , for any persons ; their children must not learn the Lords Prayer , nor a form of Catechism ; none must hear a form , &c. But the number of these is very small , and their judgment is as invaluable : Forms of prayer are lawful , useful , many a good man learns to pray by a form , as Scholars learn to write by their Masters first guidance of them , and holding their hand : They are useful and lawful for Devotion , for persons that have not an ability , yea for Ministers in that case . The people always pray by the form of him that ministreth . The Minister doth well , if he can do no better ; he conducts the people that they may in faith say , Amen ; he guides himself . But if he have an ability otherwise to do , we cannot think he doth his duty ; and we are sure every Minister should have an ability from himself both to pray and preach . How hard it is to keep out of extremes ! I challenge any to shew me how our judgment thus stated and opened , dissents from the Revelation of the Will of God in Scripture , or of any valuable persons in the Church of God in any age . § . 18. It is an easie thing for men to talk of all the Fathers , and the Church in all ages ; but it is an hard thing for those that talk at this rate , to prove what they say in any tolerable measure . A man is right in his own cause , until his neighbour cometh and searcheth him out . When men have worn out their tongues and pens in writing and speaking vain words , they will be found to have spoken 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the words of men puft up with a desire to prove some unproveable thing , or with an opinion . We will not say our opinion is infallible , but we will in sincerity say , it is what we cannot dispossess our selves of , by any ratiocination within our selves , or with others . Some will say we have a liberty to use our gifts before Sermons , in our Families , in our Closets ; the Vanity of that is shewed : But is not the Administration of the Sacraments a great piece of our Ministry ? what liberty is left us as to that ? or by what rule are we restrained in any part of our Ministry ? or how long shall we have it in any , allowing this principle ? We owe no such Idolatrous Reverence to any Father , or Person , or Church , as to take their judgment against the plainer letter , or Reason of Scripture , this were to set up one higher than the highest ; no , nor to practice any thing upon the recommendation of men , or in obedience to them contrary to what our consciences tell us is the Will of God in Scripture . This were not to set up man above God possibly , but above Gods Deputy in our souls . All the Reverence we can owe to man in that cause , is to examine our opinion to the utmost , again and again , to compare things spiritual with things spiritual : But if after all our Consciences say , It is not lawful to the utmost we can discern , it is not lawful : Though as to the reality of the truth of the notion , it is not all one ; yet as to our practice , it must be all one ; as if God said from Heaven , It is not lawful for you . But in the present case , there is no other prejudice appears against us from the judgment of the Church in former ages , than what was against the whole Protestant Religion objected by Harding . [ It is not probable that God would leave his Church in Errors a thousand years ] . We confess the judgment of what the Papist calls the Church for a thousand years , is in a great measure against us . But so it was against many points of the Protestant Religion . Bishop Jewell durst not make his challenge for more than the first 500 years to them , to shew any one point of their new Creed maintained in . We make the like challenge as to this point of the lawfulness of forms of prayer to be universally used by Ministers , or imposed upon them . It certainly robbeth God of the most natural , proper Calves of our lips , and makes our lips but Ministers to offer up others sacrifices , when we have a male in our own flock . § . 20. I shall conclude with the Reformed Church in Holland ; I have not seen their Agenda , but I am assured by a Reverend Divine , Pastor of one of those Churches in England , that they are not so tyed up , but that they have a liberty in all parts of their publick worship , to use their own prayers ; and do accordingly use it . And this I take to be enough to have spoken on this Argument , until I hear what will be said against any thing here spoken . WHen I had finished this discourse , I had an intimation given me of something spoken upon this Argument by one Mr. Pelling , Chaplain to his Grace the Duke of Somerset , in a book called The good old way . Though I was pretty well satisfied , that I could find in it nothing new , but words and confidence ; yet for the satisfaction both of my self and my friend , I procured the book in all haste , and read it with as much greediness , though with no great expectations , as thinking it a barren subject , out of which little Reason would grow , but what we before had reapt , and proved nothing but fallacy and falshood , and for which little varnish of authority could be procured , but what we had washed off with a cloth wetted in a very small degree of learning . I read it from the first to the last line upon this Theme . I at first observed , that all which he pretended to , was , That forms have been allowed and used , which may be granted , without the least damage to our cause , who do not argue all forms unlawful , no nor all forms of prayer unlawful , no nor the use of forms of prayer unlawful ; nor the use of all forms of prayer in praying unlawful ; but the use of forms of prayer for all men , ordinarily , and that in publick solemn prayer . To prove which , he hath not said a word ; but yet seeing he will not speak to what he should ( if he intended to speak any thing to the purpose ) let us consider what he hath spoken to his own purpose . He will prove he saith , p. 49. That set-forms of Divine Service were of use amongst the Jews . 2. That set forms of Divine Service were of use also amongst the Primitive Christians . 3. That after our blessed Lords ascention , in that Interval betwixt the burial of the Synagogue , and the setling of the Christian Church , set-forms of Divine Service were allowed also , even by the holy Apostles . Three great undertakings . — Et quae non viribus istis — conveniunt . But if they were all proved , would no more prove , That it is lawful for all men ordinarily to perform their Ministerial Acts in Prayer , by the prescribed forms of others , than it would prove , that it were lawful , or not lawful , for all particular men and women , to marry , or not to marry , because marriage was lawful amongst the Jews , and amongst the Primitive Christians , and in the interval he talks of ; or that it was not lawful for some persons to marry in all those periods ; both which Propositions are true . But let us see how he proves what he propounds to prove , be it what it will. And here we might have expected a Scriptural proof for the first and second of his periods , and the third too ( at least the greater part of it ) falleth within the time , of which the holy Scripture giveth us an account . But alas ! of this we have very little , and what we have of another nature is Apocryphal , and proves nothing but to such credulous souls as will believe any thing which they read in any trifling Author . 1. As to his first Period , from the beginning of the world till Christs time , I admire at the confidence of the Author , to urge the Jewish worship as a pattern to Christians , when he knows that Worship and Discipline were the two things which Christ came to alter ; and although he retained Prayer and Praise ( parts of natural worship ) and Exhortations , which were all used amongst the Jews , yet we find no forms of words in Prayer used by the Jews , the retaining of which he directed : Nor did he use or retain instruments of Musick in the worship of God ; nor did the Primitive Christians , for Justin Martyr , Qu. & Resp . 107. tells us , That they looked upon the use of musick as a childish service of God ; and therefore used it not , only plain singing . 2. It lies upon him to prove , that no Priest , or Levite in the Jewish Church , might use any forms of prayer , or blessing , but those he mentioneth in their ordinary publick Service ; and when he hath done that , we will take the same argument , and prove , That neither the Disciples did , nor any Christians ought to use any Prayer but the Lords Prayer ; because Christ hath said , When you pray , say , or pray after this manner . 3. Admit they did not ; this will only prove , either that we must use no other , or that we may use forms of prayer directed by God himself , or by his holy Prophets , or other Penmen of Scripture . But it will not prove , that all men either must use , or may use forms of prayer never prescribed by God , nor by any men to whom God had given authority to make forms of prayer or praise for his Church . Surely it is no argument . If we must , or may use a form of prayer or praise directed by God , or Christ , by David , Asaph , Moses , &c. then we must , or may use forms of prayer made by Pope Gregory , Pope Boniface , or by St. Basil , or Chrysostome ; and it is impossible but men of learning must see the inconclusiveness of this Argument , only they must say something , and ad populum phateras , any thing will serve those that understand not . None that I have met with will say , that we must in praying , or blessing , use the forms of prayer and blessing used in Scripture , and no other . So then they only say we may use them . It is granted , and what wonder is it , if we may use such forms of words in prayer , as are directed by Christ , and those servants of his whom he appointed to write the Holy Scriptures for us , which is the rule of all our Actions , and contain all that we are to believe , to pray for , and to do ; though we judg it yet sinful for all Ministers to tye themselves to forms of prayers made by men that could never pretend to such an authority to guide the Church as to what is to be believed , prayed for , or done , but only to rule it , by seeing the Laws and Ordinances which Christ and his Apostles have given , put in execution ; especially considering , that neither Christ , nor his Apostles , whose proper offices it was to direct all things of lawful and necessary use in the Church , ever did any such thing . But after this , Pope Gregory comes up , and he ( forsooth ) thinks it fit to enjoyn such a thing : Or admit it were Basil or Chrysostome 200 years before him ( which we do not believe ) , the case is the same , though not so scandalous . I shall have done with what our Author saith , as to his first period ; only minding him , this is shooting at rovers , and will never hit any mark but that which is in very ignorant and childish persons heads : It is an arrogating the same power for the Governours of Churches since Christs and the Apostles times , to ordain in matters of Worship , which they had ; which is the same argument the Papists bring for their unwritten Traditions . If I had a mind to discover mens infirmities , I could take notice of many mistakes of our Author in this Paragraph , but this is not my business . 2. I proceed to his second Period ; where he saith , That prescript forms of worship have been established for above these 1200 years last past , no learned man can deny ; he delivereth himself in this bold assertion , in safe terms , Prescript forms of worship : truly that I will not deny . I believe that Christ and his Apostles ordained , that men should worship God by Prayers , Praises , Exhortations , and administring the Sacraments ; this form of worship , yea , and that they should Baptize in the name of the Father , the Son , and the Holy Ghost ( and were not these forms of worship ? ) these have been established 1600 years , he means more , though he either hath not worded it well , or had a mind to speak safely , though he did but deceive his Reader , and say nothing to the purpose . If he means , That forms of words to be ordinarily used by all Ministers ordinarily in their publick Prayers , were established in the Church , that is , generally used , or required to be used in the universal Church , or any considerable part of it these 1200 years , though I for once run the hazard of my repute for learning with this great Dictator , I shall deny it , yea and further challenge him and all his friends to prove any such thing before Six hundred years after Christ , when Popery came in with a full wind and tide . Let us hear his proof to the contrary of this assertion . He tells us , That it is now 1312 years since the Council at Laodicea ; and then it was decreed , that the Choristers should sing by book , and that the same prayers should serve for noon , and for Evening-service , for every Assembly ▪ nor should any Prayers be read , but what were received and established , having been delivered to them by their fore fathers . Here are three things asserted , 1. That this Council of Laodicea was held in the year 368. 2. That they made such a Canon . 3. That this is the sense of that Canon , That all Ministers should use forms of prayer composed by others . The Scripture tells us in St. John's time , ( which was more than two hundred years before this ) the Church of Laodicea was a very lukewarm Church , neither hot , nor cold , ready to be spued out of Gods mouth , wretched , miserable , poor , blind , naked , and proud , and ignorant , knowing not her own corruptions , Rev. 3. 15 , 16 , 17. If such a Church as this did make such a Canon ( which concerned only their own Province ) it hath nothing in it , either of a just pattern to imitate , or of a just proof . Chytreus tells us , that there was a Council held Anno 364 ; but there is not the least mention of it in the Synodicon , published by Dr. Pappus out of a M. S. wrote before the year 921. which yet giveth us an account of all Synods and Councils held from the Apostles time , to the 8th Council held upon the union of Photius and Pope John. Caranza hath it , with 59 Canons it should make ; He saith there were but 22 Bishops at it , of which the 18 Canon Caranza gives thus : De eo quod semper supplicationes Orationum ad horam novam & vesperam oportet celebrari . That prayers should be made both at 9 in the morning and evening ; but whether conceived prayers , or by a form , it saith not ; how Balsamon reports it , I cannot tell ; but it is more than I know , if Caranza is not to be believed as soon as Balsamon , and the Synodicon published by Dr. Pappas before them both . Balsamon dyed 1203 , his Works came not out till long after , when the Papists published them , and all Protestants know there is no great credit to be given to their Editions of any ancient Authors . The upshot then is this . 1. It is very incertain whether there were ever such a Council yea or no. 2. If there were , there were but 22 men at it , and it concerned only a part of Phrygia . 3 It was a Church corrupt enough , and indeed he that reads the pretended Canons , will find it . 4. This Council , according to Caranza , only decreed Prayers morning and evening , but did not prescribe words . 5. Balsamon speaks any thing which the late Papists had a mind to , who made him speak according to the sense of their Father Gregory . 6. However this was 368 years after Christ , when the Church had as to worship lost her Purity . His next proof is the Council of Carthage , which he says was 1284 years ago , that made a Canon , That if any man did compose any prayers , he should not presume to use them , till he had consulted the most knowing men in the Church . The intent of which decree ( he saith ) was , That none should have the liberty to use what forms of prayer he pleased , but that such only should be said , as had been ratified by due authority and ancient custom . I do not like dictating . How doth this Author know that this Canon was made by a Council at Carthage 1284 years ago ? First , if it were so , it was 396 years after Christs time , when as I said before , the Church was corrupted enough in Rituals . But what will he say if that Council never made any such Canon ? I can shew him a good Author to prove it , that is Justellus , who published the African-Code . In his Preface to it , p. 35. he speaks thus : Whereas they say , that there was a third Council held at Carthage , when Caesarius and Atticus were Consuls ; I the less refuse it , because Zonaras and Balsamo attest it , and the Africane Collection mentioneth it ; but they are mistaken who ascribe 50 Canons to it , there are but 21 which were made by it , all the rest were made 22 years after , in the time of Pope Boniface , in the year 419 : and this is proved by the words of the 47 Canon ; for Boniface was not Pope when Caesarius and Atticus were Consuls , but was ordained 418 when Honorius and Theodosius was Consuls . Now this was Canon 23 ; so as it was not made before the year 419. But as to what this Canon saith , it is as material , and nothing to this Authors purpose : but for that I refer my Reader to what I have before said in answer to Mr. Falconer . His next proof is from the Canon of the Council of Milevis ; as to which , I have fully spoken before , and only shall add this : That this pretended Canon is not to be found in the African-Code , published by Justellus , where it ought to have been , if any such had been made , and not been a temporary constitution . But for a fuller answer , I refer my Reader to what is before said , having nothing to add to it . He goes on , and says , It was one great reason , amongst many others , why publick Liturgies were compiled of old , that they might be Repositories of sound Doctrine , and Preservatives of the Catholick Faith. — These were Antidotes to keep Christians from being poisoned with erroneous and rotten Principles , as our English Liturgy is at this day an excellent Amulet against the infection from Papists , Socinians , Pelagians , and other modern seducers , and perhaps this is the Grand reason why the Belweathers of faction hate our Common-prayer-book , &c. As is the man , so is his truth , so is his spirit . The Papists have had Liturges these 1000 years , by this argument , they are the most orthodox people ; and it would be enquired in England at this day , whether there be more Socinians , Pelagians and Papists amongst those that adore the Liturgy , or amongst those who have no kindness for that or any other . Let but the understanding Reader judg of all the rest he saith , by the truth of this . In the next place he saith , it cannot be denied but Liturgies were in use in St. Basils and St. Chrysostomes time generally , who were about 380 years after Christ : and why cannot this be denied ? because he saith Liturgies are extant under their names . This learned argument will prove that there were also Liturgies in St. Marks , St. Peters , St. James , and St. Andrews time , for there are Liturgies out also under their names ; yet this is all this Author hath to say why no body should deny what he saith , as if there were not 100 books extant under the names of the Ancients , which not only Rivet and Cocus amongst the Protestants , but Possevine , Sixtus Senensis , Erasmus and Bellarmine amongst the Papists have denied to be theirs , men all as learned as our Author . I have before shewed that the Liturgies going under their names , could not be theirs . The noble and learned Lord of Mornay ( whom our Author sometimes speaks highly of ) , l. 1. de missa , cap. 6. saith , Liturgies has omnes falsi postulo . I charge all these Liturgies as false . In both of them , as was said before , is the hymn 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( which came 200 years after into the Church ) ; in both , Confessors are mentioned , whose names were not known of many years after ) ; in both , the Virgin Mary is called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a term not admitted in common use till after the Council at Ephesus , 436. In both of them there is Incensing . Many other reasons the Reader may find in Morney , in the Chapter before quoted , &c. But faith our Author , Though we do not think that these are the very same which they used , because later ages have defaced them , and foisted many heterogeneous things into them , yet 't is Ridiculous to imagine that St. Basil and St. Chrysostome did not compile any , or that nothing of these was of their composing . And what if they did compile some ? doth it therefore follow , that they required all Ministers in their Diocesses to use them ? But the truth is , this is a ridiculous argument to prove they compiled any , because some go under their names ; and a ridiculous answer to men , proving the forgery of those pretended Liturgies from the use of terms not known in their Ages , of rites mentioned in them , which confessedly came not in of hundreds of years after they were dead ; and of Prayers found in them for a Pope and an Emperor that lived 500 years after they were dead : I say it will appear , to answer all this , a most silly and ridiculous trifling , to tell us , It is true , some things are foisted in since , but 't is manifest they made Liturgies , and some parts of those Liturgies . How is it manifest ? Good Reader , observe what possibility of proof there is , that these men made no such Liturgies ; if this will not , it lyes upon them to prove they did make some : They produce Copies , divers Copies ; we peruse them , and find , 1. That no two of them agree each with other . 2. That the Doctrine in the Copies , is contrary to the Doctrine of those times . 3. That there is in them Prayers for men that lived 500 years after they were dead . 4. That there are in them many rites and modes of worship , not known of hundreds of years after they were both dead . But yet , saith our Author , ' t is . Ridiculous to think these Fathers did not make Liturgies , or that nothing of these was of their composing ; yea 't is ridiculous to assert any thing in them was of their composing , for what is there to prove it ? Those parts which the Papists , and some Protestants say , are foisted in , come to us upon the same Tradition that the other parts do . What one thing is there in any of these Liturgies , which none but Basil or Chrysostome could be the Author of ? If others might be the Authors , and that 500 years after , how doth it appear that Basil or Chrysostome must ? we are sure they were no Authors of a great part ; what but a foolish fancy can make us believe they were the Authors of any part of them . But the truth is , this is the Papists answer . My Lord of Morney quotes Espenceus de missa privata , p. 220. It was ( saith the Jesuit ) Leo Thuscus that wrote the Scholion of the Priests communicating alone , he lived in the year 1170 , and was Secretary to Emanuel the Great , Emperour , and Interpreter to Trithemius — ( Did not he make the whole Liturgy ? ) and had respect rather to his own times than Chrysostomes ? — Which ( saith he ) I mind you of , not that I think that Missal unworthy of Chrysostome , or the Greek Church , or do otherwise suspect it , but think it began and composed by a most holy man , and enlarged by putting in many things , according to the variety of times . As much might be said for the Antiquity of the Alcoran , in which are many things of Primitive truth , though Mahomet hath put in a world of fooleries and wickedness ; and doubtless the whole is of no Primitive authority , though there be much Primitive truth in it . From hence our Author rises higher , to tell us of St. James , and St. Marks Liturgies , and Clements Constitutions ; for the two first , I have said enough before . For Clement , chuse Reader whether thou wilt believe the D. of Somersets Chaplain , or Eusebius and Hierome , who lived above 400 years after Christ , and knew of no such book as Clements Constitutions ; see Eusebius , l. 3. cap. 32. See also what Morney saith of this , l. 1. de missa , p. 46. cap. 2. He that will believe all in Bibliotheca patrum , hath more faith than I have , or any Protestant can have . But he will at last come to authentick Testimonies , that will satisfie any indifferent man , p. 56. if compared with the Liturgies ( that is , with the forgeries ) aforementioned , that such and such forms were used by Christians in the first ages ; and so that in all probability they were directed by the Apostles , or Apostolical men . Vsed is not enough , if he could prove it ; they must be universally used , or required to be universally used . But let us hear what proof he hath . Cyprian speaks of solemn Offices [ solemnibus adimpletis ] that must be understood of customary forms of Prayer — and why ? — because he elsewhere hath sursum corda , Lift up your hearts . — We lift them to the Lord. — In another place he saith — they prayed for several things continually and earnestly ; and these he saith , no doubt , were charitable forms , used in Morning and Evening-Service . Origen saith they used 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , appointed Prayers ; Origen quotes a form of three lines . — Questionless this was in the Alexandirian Liturgy Tertullian mentions , Dominica solemnia , and tells us of four parts of it , Reading the Scripture , Singing of Psalms , Prayers and Adlocutions . These he will have to be Biddings of Prayer ; the Deacons saying , Let us pray ; then telling them what they should pray for . So then , Preaching was no part of the Sabbath-days Service , which I should rather understand by Allocutiones , considering that there is a book called Dies Dominica , so abundantly proves it , and we have such plentiful proof of it from Chrysostome , Justin Martyr , &c. But a thing never thought on by Christ or his Apostles , Bidding of Prayer , that ( forsooth ) must be made one of the parts of the Sabbath-service . Most ridiculous ! But in all this , good Reader , consider what little of proof there is , besides the Authors Questionless , and without doubt . Cyprian speaks of solemn things [ Offices he puts in ] , and are there no solemn things but Prayers made by forms ? He hath sursum corda . And do not those who pray by no forms , ordinarily begin with , Let us lift up our hearts to God. Cyprian saith they pray continually and earnestly , and might they not do so without a book ? Origen saith they used Prayers appointed ; but doth he say the words they should use in those prayers were also set and appointed them ? Origen reciteth a form of three lines , and he might for ought we know , or say to the contrary , both make it and use it : but is it proved that the Church generally used that form ? His interpretation of the Petitions mention'd by Tertullian as part of the solemn Service of the Sabbath , to be Collects , is a new whimsi of our Authors , and I think his Exposition of Tertullians sine Monitore is as new and precacious ; for , Tertullian's preces delegatae , they signified all the prayers which the Congregation put up to God , by their Ministers delegated and instructed to speak to God in the name of all the people ; who upon this account , by Greg. Naz. is said to have had 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a kind of Mediatorship between God and man , he being the peoples mouth unto God : There was then in the Church-Meetings but one voice heard , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , saith Chrysostome , Homil. 36. in 1 Cor. That is , There ought never to be but one voice in the Church . He that readeth , readeth alone , and the Bishop ( saith he ) is in the mean time silent . He that sings , sings alone ; and when all sing together , 't is all as one voice , &c. Our Author , in the last place , spends much Paper upon a quotation from Justin Martyr . It is too long to transcribe . p. 62. he comes to his Collections from it . 1. He saith the Catechumeni were taught to pray , the congregation of believers praying with them ; he would have them taught to pray by the Deacons , admonishing them to pray . Admonishing whom ? did they think we admonish those not admitted yet into Church , to pray in the solemn Assembly of the Believers ? Surely the latter ; and they told them the general matter of Prayer . This certainly concludes they had no stated forms of words which they used , and might use no other . So fair a proof is this . 2. In the next place he collecteth , that the Catechumeni did in a form make confession of their faith . What is this to the purpose ? 3. In the third place he gathers from Justin Martyr , that the Catechumeni were brought from the water to the congregatiou ; and Sermon ended , they went jointly to prayer . So then they had a Sermon , and prayers after it ; but how doth it appear this was by a form of words from which they might not vary ? Questionless , saith our Author : it is pretty that he should think his Questionless should make a good argument . But he hath found the form in Clements Constitutions , a book not heard of 300 years after Clements death , out of what hole soever it is now come . All he saith else , is no more to the purpose , than that Prayers being ended , they saluted one another with an holy kiss , they received the Sacrament , and prayed again , and praised God in a copious and large manner ( by their Minister ) . And these prayers being concluded , the people jointly cryed out , Amen . What proof there is for forms of prayer , comes out of the forged Constitutions of Clement , and this Authors strong fancy , not out of Justin Martyr : and our Author p. 62. confesseth Justin Martyr tells us no such things ; but yet he saith , They did it , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . The Cyril he talks of as so ancient , was an Author lived near 500 years after Christ , and was not like to know so exactly what was done in Justin Martyrs time . Any writer now would be lookt on to give a very incertain account of what was done in England Anno 1200. nor would any give much credit to what he should write . It is a great vanity men have , when they are eager of a thing , to fancy all they meet with to look that way , if they do but see a word , or a letter or two of that nature . I knew a Dignitary of our Church , who was strongly conceited against the Morality of the Sabbath , and therefore was engaged to put another sense upon the fourth Commandment , or to leave us but Nine Moral Precepts in the Decalogue . He at last finds in Origen and Epiphanius , a place or two where Christ was call'd , The great Sabbath ; and presently writes a book about a new 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , mightily triumphing , That he had found out Gospel in the midst of the law . The sense of that Commandment was nothing else , but remember to sanctifie the Name of Jesus Christ . When , alas , the old Fathers meant no more , than that Christ in whom alone is rest for our souls , was typified by the holy day of rest appointed by the law ; and though Christ be our rest , our great rest , yet he is not a day of rest , which is that which the Commandment only speaketh of . Just so I observe it is in this Controversie . Some men are so mightily zealous for stated and universally imposed forms of prayer ; that where-ever in any of the Ancients they meet with the words Liturgy , Offices , Common-prayers , Prayers , solemn Services ; they presently think they have a full proof for forms of prayer , composed by others to be used by all Ministers . When as , alas , there 's nothing more weak and ridiculous , and these arguments speak nothing of reason , but only a fancy disturb'd by unreasonable passion . A Liturgy signifies nothing but an order of Ministration in holy things , which may be without one form of prayer , only directing the time , or times when the Ministers shall pray . Offices , in the ancients , signifies no more than Duties : The approbation of the term Offices , to forms of prayer to be used at Burials Christnings , &c. is but a very modern Popish Device to suggest to silly souls , that Ministers did not do their duties , if they did not use their Missals and Rituals , &c. and surely Prayers and solemn Services may be without forms , and so may Common prayers too . I am the more confirmed in this by what our Author saith next , wherein he undertakes a thing beyond all men ▪ viz. to prove , That in the Apostles times , and in the interval betwixt the burial of the Jewish Synagogue , and the setting up of the Christian Church set-forms of Divine Service ( he should have said of Prayers for all Ministers ) were allowed also . Aude aliquid brevibus gyni & carcere dignum ; Si vis esse aliquis — I know none hath undertaken this , neither Dr. Hammond nor Mr. Faulconer ; this Notion is but a Probationer to the world . Let us examine what Arguments he hath . 1. His first proof is from the Apostles going to the Temple to worship and pray , Acts 2. 46. Acts 3. 2. and ( 2. ) the Apostles justifying themselves , Acts 25. 8. 24. 12. 28. 17. that they had nothing against the temple , or the law : and 3. the Jews tenaciousness of their Rituals : all which are proved well enough , p. 63 , 64. But how will our Author prove that the Jewish Ministers in their Temple-service used any prescribed forms of prayer which others had made for them , and enjoyned them , who were no inspired Prophets , or Penmen of holy Writ ? He hath not yet proved this . Or how will he prove that the Apostles themselves in the Temples or Synagogues ministred at any time by such forms : we will prove they sometimes preached there , but it lyes upon our Author to prove they read prayers , for that we find not ; and we grant they may hear prayers that are forms , if the matter be good . It is a sign of an ill cause , or a weak Disputant , to pack on proof where none needed , but bring none where all the pinch and stress lay . Our Author here takes it for granted , what is most notoriously false , That the Apostles constantly attended the Jewish Service both in the Temple and Synagognes , only met together in other places , for the Sacrament , and such service as they could not joyn with the Jews in ; but that is not to our purpose , nor yet to examine how well by his Dial he hath rectified the Sun , translating 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Acts 2. 46. in the house , not from house to house , nor at home ( as Beza ) . But he is not satisfied that in the Christian Assemblies , in the Apostles times there were no manner of forms . Who says there were not ? There was a form of sound Doctrine ( which the Apostle tells us of ) , there were Psalms , Hymns , and spiritual Songs in forms , they are the three titles of Davids Psalms ; we have nothing to do with any thing but forms of prayer , made by some particular Ministers , or Church Officers , to be used by all other Ministers . He comes a little to the point , p. 67. His first pretended proof , is what divers have touched upon before him , 1 Tim. 2. 12. we grant him from that Text , 1. That the several sorts of prayers are there mentioned . 2. That these several duties were to be done , prayers of these several sorts to be made ( for offices observed , that term seems to suggest something else not in the Text ) . But whereas he goes on , and tells us in the third place , p 68. That it is as clear , that the whole Church of Christ hath conceived , and taken it for granted in all ages , that the Apostle in this place did intend to fix a rule of Devotion , and did order a Platform and Model to be observed in all publick Services , and especially at the celebration of the holy Communion ; if he means a platform of words and phrases not to be varied from ; It is so far from being clear , that no proof can be brought of it , nor do ( as himself confesseth ) the Apostles words inforce any such belief , nor his following quotations out of Chrysostome , Ambrose , or Augustine prove the least of it . All rests upon the practice of the Church since , for which indeed much may be said , after 600 years after Christ , but nothing of any weight or moment before that time . And for the Churches judgment in Pope Gregory's time as to Rituals , it is a very ill proof of what was done in the Apostles time in all Protestants judgments . Our Author goes on still , and will not say it is demonstrable ; but he tells us it seems very probable , that the Apostles themselves did in their ordinary Ministrations observe forms of prayer , notwithstanding those extraordinary assistances of the spirit which they were blest with ▪ Strange ! the Apostles ! what men that received not their Ministry of men , nor by men , but immediately from Christ ( then he must give them their forms ) ! men that hath those extraordinary effusions of the spirit ! Surely there is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 some Divine thing in prescribed forms ; or those that speak thus , must use the same Art with us , to perswade us to their Lure , that Romulus used with his silly Romans ; who to perswade them to accept his Laws , made them believe that he had them from the Goddess Ageria ; Well , but our Author doth not believe they used a book , ( we thank him for that ( the Parchments that St. Paul left at Troas , then shall not rise up in judgment against us , though his Cloak may ) , nor doth he think they tyed themselves to words , ( but this they must , if they used forms of words ) ; all that he will assert , that they used a certain method , and the matter and substance of their ordinary services , was for the most part the same . We thank him for nothing ; then Nonconformists use forms of prayer , as well as Conformists ; we shall never need examine his reasons , when we grant the thing ; for if they be strong , it is but to confirm what none doubteth ; if weak , it would be but to expose an Author , whose book seems to be calculated for his reputation . Thus far I have examined all the pretended proof from Antiquity , rather ex abundanti , and to satisfie some peoples curiosity , than for any other reason . And in the close let me give my Reader a caution against this kind of arguing , which I doubt not but will appear very reasonable . 1. The Reader must know , that Printing hath not been known in the world yet 200 years ; before that time , all was in Manuscripts . 2. The most of the Manuscripts were in Papists hands ▪ and from them it is that the Copies came which were printed ; indeed , the Bible was in the Jews hands ( as to the Old Testament ) we were infinitely acurate in preserving the purity of it , keeping account both of the numbers of lines in pages , and how often the same letter was used in each line ; the New Testament was in the hands of the Greek Churches as well as the Papists , so that they could not well deprave that . 3. That as the Church was debauching in some rituals before 300 years after Christ was expired ; so ever since 600 it hath been debauched , much in Doctrine , more in matters of Worship , Rites , Ceremonies and Government . 4. That from the year 600 , to 1516 , the generality of all ancient Manuscripts being in their hands , and that Church all along growing worse and worse , more sottishly idolatrous , superstitious and ignorant ( as to the generality of their Ministers ) , they made it their business to put out , and put in to the Writings of the ancients what they pleased , to forge Writings to be theirs , which were not so , and suppress others that were so , which is evident from the Writings of Papists , as well as Protestants . Sixtus Senensis , Possevine , Bellarmine , were all Papists ; so was Erasmus . Rivet and Cocus were Protestants , they have all books extant to teach us to distinguish betwixt the true Writings of the Ancients , and those pretended to be theirs , but not so . And there is no doubt , but it was through meer carelesness , if they left a word or line in the ancients , against any point of Doctrine , any way of Worship , any Rite or Ceremony , in credit at Rome , or used in their Church . 5. From them came Justin Martyr , Ignatius , Clement , Tertullian , Ambrose , Augustine ; in short , all the Writings of the Fathers we have , ( except possibly some two or three of the Greek Fathers ) ; yet the most famous and common Editions of them , are all Popish , and come out to us with their puttings out , and puttings in what they pleased . 6. From hence will appear , what little credit is to be given to any thing , in any of the books published under their names , any further than it is agreeable with the Scripture , and bottomed there . 7. Allow me the Editions of the Fathers and Councils , which the Papists have let us have , I hardly know one Doctrine of Popery , or one Idolatrous or Superstitious Practice , Rite or Ceremony at Rome , but I will bring as good proof for , as either Mr. Faulconer or Mr. Pelling have brought for the Antiquity of forms of prayer generally used . 8. From hence it follows , that those who lay such stress on this point of Antiquity in the case , are but doing the Papists work , laying a foundation for the Papists to build all their abominable Doctrines , Idolatries , and Practices upon , and he is half a Papist that is resolved to believe all those things true which may be found in the ancient Writings , as we have them . We have so much charity for those great and holy men , as to believe they never wrote any such things , though some Popish Monks and Fryers have fathered them upon them . 9. If any will yet believe what they find in their Works , as we now have them , he stands obliged not to do it rashly , but to read , 1. what both Papists and Protestants have wrote , as to that book of theirs out of which the Quotation is . 2. Then to consider what was the signification of the words , Liturgy , Merit , Offices , and an 100 more in that age ; and whether we have not put a new sense upon them , not known in their times . 3. To consider how far in the judgment of Protestants the Church was corrupted in the times when those Fathers wrote . 10. This I take to be a tedious work ; the Prophet , Isa . 8. 20. hath taught me a nearer and safer course : To the law , and to the testimony : if they speak not according to this word , it is because there is no light in them . Does any say , but how will you know the sense of the Scriptures ? I answer from my own conscience and reason , comparing things spiritual , with things spiritual , and hearing the judgments of others , before I determine . Will they say , but you may be deceived ? it is true , so might the Fathers : but in things necessary , if I use prayer , I have a promise , The Spirit shall lead you into all truth . I am sure I can from Scripture be as certain of the Will of God in any case , as I can be , that any one leaf of the Fathers were ever written by them ; and if it were , I am sure they were fallible men as well as I , and in many things did err . The pressing and laying so much stress as men do ( some men ) on authority and antiquity , is in truth nothing but a mighty facturing for Popery , and it is impossible but learned men must understand so much . Besides , not one , often , who talks so much of the Fathers , and antiquity , regards what Edition he quotes , or makes use of ; and all know , that where there is one of the Ancients to be got , so much as of Erasmus his Edition ( who was a Papist ▪ but seemeth just and honest ) , there are ten of filthy and most corrupt Popish Editions , where the Reader can safely trust nothing . And thus much shall serve for Mr. Pelling , for I am not concerned as to what he saith for the English Liturgy , let it be as fine a thing as it will ; if it be unlawful for me to use any in my Ministration in prayer , it is most certainly unlawful for me to use that , and at that boundary I stick , till better reason than I have yet met with , removes me from it . FINIS . For the Reverend his very Worthy Friend , &c. SIR , YOU must think me either very regardless of the Obligations you have laid on me , or ( which I had rather chuse ) very inconcerned in the New Argument for Forms of Prayer , from Matth. 26. 44. that I should put you to the trouble of a second Letter to mind me , not to overlook it , and particularly to give you my thoughts upon it . Indeed ▪ Sir , the Argumentation from it savours fo little of a Scholar , or a rational man , that I did not think you in earnest . But calling to mind , that the Gentlemen we have to do with , think they have a conclusive argument in the case , from the ●… Apostles 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 command that prayers should be made for all men , 1 Tim. 2 ( which surely may be made by each Minister for his Congregation ▪ and shall not need be prescribed in a book ) ; and what your self told me , that you heard a late Bishop of Bath and Wells say , That it was very probable that the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the Parchments left at Troas , which St. Paul took such care Timothy should bring , were the Church-prayers , or Liturgy , forgetting ( as you well note ) that there St. Paul prayed some time without them . I began to assume some more deliberate thoughts of that Text , Mat. 26. especially reading what you write , that you had once met with it in Print , and had often heard it in Sermons and Conferences . For Sermons , men now-a-days use more Rhetorick than Logick ; but , methinks , in Prints and Conferences they should be more Logical . Let me therefore consider the Text , Mat. 26. 44. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; we translate it [ saying the same words ] ; so saith Mark ▪ 14. 39. Luke mentioneth but one prayer . Now , Sir , how 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 can be translated the same words , judg you ; it must be the same word ( if any thing ) ●nd we know , though our Saviours prayer were very short , yet there was more than one or two words in it . But , Sir , this Topick speaks either a very great ignorance , or a wilful design , to lead others to mistake in those that use it : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth not signifie always a syllabical word , but the thing , or matter , which some words signifie , and other words may signifie too . The Leper is said Mar. 1. 45. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , we translate it , to blaze abroad the matter , and that very truly . Christ is said to preach the word to the people , Mar. 2. 2. that is , the matter of the Gospel , for no doubt he did not always use the same syllabical words : so Mark 4. 14 , 15 , 16 , 17 , 18 , 19. Matth. 13. 19 , 20 , 21 , 22 , 23. where word signifies , the matter of the Gospel , though in diversified words , it were easie to produce an 100 Texts . The truth is , it is an Hebraeism , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 answering to their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which signifies matter , or things , as often as syllabical words ; and those who know not this , are very ignorant of the Dialect of the Hebrew , or the Greek Tongue . Christ went and prayed , saying the same thing , that is , to the same sense , the same matter : and this must be the sense , for we shall find that Christ did not use the same syllabical words the first time , Mat. 26. 39. The words are , O my father , if it be possible , let this cup pass from me : nevertheless , not as I will , but as thou wilt . V. 42. He went away the second time , an●… prayed , saying , O my father , if this cup may not pass from me , except I drink it , thy will be done . V. 44. He prayed the third time , saying the same words . Mark 14. 36. He said , Abba Father , all things are possible unto thee , take away this cup from me : nevertheless , not what I will , but what thou wilt . V. 39. He prayed , and spake the same words . Luke 22. 42. Father , if thou be willing , remove this cup fr●m me : nevertheless , not my will , but thine be done . It is agreed on all hands by the Evangelists , that our Saviour at this time prayed but three times ; Luke mentions but one , Mark mentions two , Matthew mentions three . Here are four forms ; how is it possible that he should then use the same syllabical words twice , and yet use all the forms as they lye before us ? In earnest , the Argument from this Text is such a trifle , as I am ashamed to examine it , lest some should think me as simple as they that use it ; for it is as much idleness to pelt a Puppet , as to make it . Those who argue from this Topick , must be acquainted little with the Hebrew , or the Greek , or with the Scripture ; and those that think it militates against my Position , must have as little acquaintance , either with it , or with common sense , chuse they whether . My Hypothesis is , That it is unlawful for Ministers whom God hath furnished with the gift of Prayer , ordinarily to perform their ministerial Acts in publick solemn prayer , by the prescribed forms of others . No ( must they say ) Christ did it : Say they so ? who made these forms for him , I wonder ? who denies but that a person furnished with the gift of prayer , may pray by a form composed in his own heart ? who says forms of prayer are sinful in that degree as blasphemy , so that God himself cannot legitimate them ? who saith , that when we are to pray for one and the same thing , we may not use the same words which we have before conceived in our own hearts ? Now what doth this Text prove more ? If it could be proved that our Saviour did use the same words syllabically two or three times , which it is plain he did not ; if he did not pray six times instead of three ( which are all the Evangelists mention ) , yet I hope he made use of words conceived by himself ; and I do not read that he left any order , that his Disciples , or the Church should afterwards use these very words , and no other in a state of affliction ; if he had , surely we ought to have had no other Collect for sick and afflicted persons ; and by his varying four times ( or three times ) , he taught us that we may lawfully vary our words , and yet 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , pray to the same sense , and make the same to be the matter of our Petitions . So that those who triumph in this Argument , do not only triumph before the Victory ( which the Proverb makes absurd ) , but they triumph in the thing by which they are conquered ; which yet if it be rightly done , is but ingenuous ; for we ought to rejoyce when Truth ( to which all rational souls are debtors ) prevaileth . By which ( Reverend Sir ) you may see I am very well pleased at the news ▪ that my little book shall be answered . I do not think it worthy of a man to be afraid of an Answer ; and profess to you rom my heart , that I should be glad to see an ingenuous answer , to which I should not be able to make a reply satisfactory to my self , or any reasonable persons . I will assure you it would go a great way to deliver me from the name of a Dissenter : But for a Minister of Christ , to be made a meer Minister of men , to read , or say in his Ministerial Acts only what men would have them , is what I am so far from thinking lawful , that I cannot entertain a thought of it with that patience I ordinarily use in causes which appear to me of a lighter nature : This is my present apprehension of this matter . I seek for Truth , and not for Masteries , and shall therefore rejoyce if any can inform me better ; but you see it must be with better arguments than these , though this be as good an argument , I must needs say , as that from Hosea 14. Take unto you words , and say , &c. and many others . But I have enlarged too much upon so inconcludent an argument , unless ( as I hope ) it will conclude that I am , Your most affectionate Brother and Servant ,