The utter routing of the whole army of all the Independents and Sectaries, with the totall overthrow of their hierarchy ..., or, Independency not Gods ordinance in which all the frontires of the Presbytery ... are defended ... / by John Bastvvick, captain in the Presbyterian army. Bastwick, John, 1593-1654. 1646 Approx. 2111 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 398 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2008-09 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A26759 Wing B1072 ESTC R10739 11683033 ocm 11683033 48122 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A26759) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 48122) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 11:2) The utter routing of the whole army of all the Independents and Sectaries, with the totall overthrow of their hierarchy ..., or, Independency not Gods ordinance in which all the frontires of the Presbytery ... are defended ... / by John Bastvvick, captain in the Presbyterian army. Bastwick, John, 1593-1654. [130], 662 p. Printed by John Macock and are to be sold by Michael Spark ..., London : 1646. Reproduction of original in Union Theological Seminary Library, New York. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. 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Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Presbyterianism. Great Britain -- History -- Puritan Revolution, 1642-1660. 2006-04 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2006-05 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2007-05 Ali Jakobson Sampled and proofread 2007-05 Ali Jakobson Text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE UTTER ROUTING of the whole Army of all the INDEPENDENTS & SECTARIES , with the Totall overthrow of their Hierarchy that New Bable , more groundless than that of the Prelates . OR INDEPENDENCY not Gods ORDINANCE , in which all the frontires of the PRESBYTERY , with al the quarters of the same are Defended , against all Enemies . And all the Forces of the three Generals and Commanders of the / Sectaries , Hanserde Knollys , J. S. & Henry B Burton are all dissipated , with all / their whibling Reserves , and the field of Truth still kept , viz. / That the Presbyterian Government Dependent is Gods Or - / dinance , and not the Presbyterian Government ▪ Independent . / Unto which is annexed an Appendix in way of answer to Henry / Burton Clerk , one of his quondam fellow sufferers , in the which all his ca - / lumnies are wiped away by the sponge of innocency , and the Postscript Vin - / dicated ; the honour also of all our renouned Generalls and Commanders / is Vindicated ; the honour of the City of London ; the honour of our brethren / the Scots ; the honour likewise of all the Presbyters through the Kingdome / are Vindicated from the obloquie of all the Independents and Sectaries ; / and their due prayses given unto them in their severall ranks and or - / ders , as next under God to have been the principall and primary / Repairers of our breach , and the Restorers of our pathes to / dwell in : the honour of all which the Sectaries / wholly and solely ascribe to their Party . / By JOHN BASTVVICK Captain in the Presbyterian Army , / Dr in Physick and Phisitian in Ordinary to all the Ill-dependents and / Sectaries to sweat them with Arguments twice a year gratis , spring and / fall , who discovering their distempers and malidies finds by the severall / symptomes of their diseases that they are very unsound , root and branch , / and therefore ought ( with their venemous and intolerable Toleration / of all Religions ) to be shunned and avoyded as a company of infected per - / sons by all such as are sound in the faith . / Mat. 7. 15. Beware ... but / inwardly ... wolves . / London , Printed by John Macock , and are to be sold by Michael Spark , / at the sign of the blue Bible in Green Arbour . 1646. / TO My dear friend Dr Bastwick , on the Frontispeice of his Book Intituled , The Vtter Routing of all the Independent Army &c. TO be a Captain in an holy War , Doth well become a man of peace so far , As he contending , on Gods glory looks , Which is the cause , maintain'd in all thy books . And now in this , by Gods great might and power , Thou wagest War against high Babels Tower. The whole armour of God thou 'st thee upon , Thy Loyns are girt with Truth ; the brest-plate on Of righteousnesse Thou hast ; thy feet are shod With Gospell-Peace , prepared by thy God. And above all , the shield of faith in t' hand , All fiery darts of Satan to withstand . T' helmet of salvation , the spirits sword , Thou fightest with , which is Gods holy Word . A weapon , that all battels will abide . March on : brave Captain , God is on thy side . S. B. TO My worthy and learned friend Doctor Bastwick , on his book intituled , The Vtter Routing of all the Independent Army , &c. THY former works I 'ave read , and truly say , They were a means I wandred not astray From Truth to Error ; But did pry into The new opinions , which some say , and do Pretend to be according to Christs mind , But searching Scripture no such way I find . The paths which Independents do walk in , Gods Word shew'd me , to be a way of sin . And not the only way , as they depone , Christ to advance , and set upon his Throne . For they thereby Christs seamlesse Coat do rend , And precious time in jangling quaeries spend . Framing their notions , only to make fraction , To Christs dishonour , and th' increase of faction . By their means , blasphemies are spred about ; All sorts of Sectaries , the Land throughout , Do preach up Error , and so bold they grow , To threaten such as will not let them fow Their tares amongst them , nor let them mislead People from Truth , who readily give heed To new opinions , ways of Liberty , Being pleasing Doctrine to delude them by , And to make many follow them , because 'T is naturall to reject Gods holy Laws . Grief overwhelm'd my heart when I did see Poor souls seduc'd , yet men so silent be . At length I heard , as thou hast heretofore Discover'd Error , out of thy rich store Of heavenly wisdome , which the Lord gave thee , Thou plead'st Truths cause , that All her worth may see In this thy Book . To th' Presse I therefore went , Perus'd so much as gave me such content , That whil'st I read , my spirits reviv'd again , Seeing Error vanquisht , and the Truth made plain Unto all men , God so assisting Thee , That those who read it o're , resolv'd may bee . Thy Arguments being prov'd by holy Writ , None can deny , but such who use their wit To wrest the Scripture , reason to deride , Thereby to gain [ Proselytes ] on their side . For thou hast laid down Truth so clear , I see , That sincere souls will blesse the Lord for thee . Of all false Doctrines , I do now desire Good people to beware , and this Book read ; What satisfaction any can require , They will find here who love the Truth indeed . Read , meditate , of God ask wisdome then , Truth to discern from all false ways of men . S. B. ON The approved & transcendent worth of my dear and faithfull friend Dr Bastwick , Which the Independents and Sectaries of our times do labour to obscure , with their black mouth'd railings , false accusings , sinfull reproachings , self-conceited slightings , proud scornings , unworthy and unchristian vilifyings of him . TO set forth all thy parts , Learning and skill , It were a work too hard for Homers Quill : And Virgils Poem excellent in Verse Would come far short thy vertues to rehearse . Were they alive , and should it take in hand , Thy worth 's above their muse to understand . For why ? in thee divine and heavenly grace , To be admir'd , do challenge the first place . But they such precious graces never learn'd , Nor could perceive , b'ing sp'rit'ally discern'd . To speak thy praises fully , they would find A task not easie , though both were combin'd To make a Record , onely to declare Thy morall vertues , eminent and rare ; As Justice , Fortitude , Wisdome , ( Charity ) Temperance , Patience , Love , Humility . Thy knowledge They in Tongues might then commend , And without doubt their muses would contend Thine Eloquence and Rhet'rick to set forth , Yet could they never make known all thy worth , Which they would see , and so conclude thy praise , By setting on thy head a wreath of bayes . And yet all this were to eclipse thy glory , Thy graces rare transcend so mean a story . In morall vertues , true , Thou Ex'lent art , But here 's thy praise , thou hast an upright heart To God thy maker , hating every sin , Thou art a man all glorious within . Let Sectaries rail , raise Lyes ; Yet without fear , Truth speaks thee one of Gods choyce Jewels dear ; As having been most faithfull to her cause , When men presum'd to make their will their Laws . And this thy Book doth shew , for all their talk , That in Truths paths thou persever'st to walk . Thy blamelesse life and godly conversation They cannot stain with slandrous exclamation . Fight still the fight of faith ; most certainly There is laid up , for Thee , in heav'n on high , A Crown of righteousnesse , which at that day , The Lord , the righteous Judge , shall give , and say To Thee , Come blessed of my Father , take The kingdome I prepared for thy sake , From the foundation of the world ; and shall Then , Crown thy head with glory immortall . S. B. TO The Victorious Worthy Mr John Bastwick , Dr in Physick , and Captain in the Presbyterian Army , upon His industrious and learned Book intituled The Vtter Routing of all the Independent Army , &c. TRiumphant Victor , Thou hast won the day , And Routed Legions too , without a fray Or shedding blood : Thy deep mysterious skill Hath been always to Cure , and not to kill . Thou 'st purg'd their melancholy , that began To make all Zeal their own complexion . Their Il-dependent Choler 's cool'd by thee , And Spleen , and Sanguine may Religious bee , While they take leave to rage , and rail upon Thee , as thou wert the Whore of Babylon . Then thou couragious Captain , undertake To vanquish Error , for Christ's Churches sake . Arm Thee , with Samsons strength , or Davids , thus Like Paul , fight Thou , with beasts of Ephesus . Then sound a charge , utterly Rout all those Peace-Church-disturbers , Separates that expose Our Zion like to Sodome ! what they 're able , Raze down Christ's Churches , to erect their Babel . On Thee a furious Rabbie fouly fals , Beats up Thy Quarters : All their Generals Hanserdo Knollys , namelesse I. S. Burton , Have not a Scripture weapon that can hurt , One Arm'd as Thou art , ( their fury to abide ) With Arguments , by Gods Word justifi'd . The Scriptures Thou unvail'st , we can behold Their sacred Truths , Thy works do plain unfold Their mysteries : Thou with th' Apostles keyes Unlockst Christs Churches hidden Treasuries . In this , Thou hast all Sectaries overthrown ; Now they 'll cry out of Persecution . To whom th' dissenting brethren do accord , Who , with Hugh Peters keyes , Paul Hobsons sword Advance they will , boldly , ( march madly on ) For all Religions , — a Toleration . Which to Christs faithful Spous doth bring great scandal ; Such wasting New Lights shew Theeves in the candle , Who from Christs fold , His Church , the fat sheep steal , Saints , Converts , Zealots , Rich-men , in our Weal . 'T is better grow in grace , like thriving Lambs , Then in short time , become such hurtfull Rams . But Thou well prove'st their sacrilegious theft , Christ , nor His blest Apostles ever left Them such a Pattern : th' issues of thy pen , Shews their false Lights , to all enlightned men . And in their new ways , thou hast them pursu'd So close , that Thou their Champions hast subdu'd ; Routed their Army ; all their force and might They have's to rail , They are too weak to fight . George Lindsey . THE ERRATA . In the Epistle to the Reader . PAge 1. line 14. expression read expressions . P. 2. l. 3. election r. affection & ibid. l. 9. new r. knew . P. 3. l. 31. Independent r. Independents . P. 15. l. 29. unihilate r. annihilate . In the Book . PAge 6. line 7. papisticiae read papisticae , & ibid. l. 15. Hrivie r. Privie . P. 9. in some copies in divers lines Pounties , Porporations , Pompanies , read Counties , Corporations , Companies . P. 20. l. 20. his time r. in his time , & ibid. l. 26. in some copies how saith God r. how saith he . P. 129. l. 18. Syllogism r. Syllogisms . P. 256. l. 18. given , or them r. given them , or . P. 373. l. ult . Punies r. Ninnies . P. 374. alribiadian r. Alcibiadian . P. 635. l. 19. hollownes read holiness . The Reader in his wisdome will both discern and pardon the other literal escapes in the printing . To the Ingenuous READER . Christian Reader , WHEN it was but noysed abroad , after my returne from my last imprisonment , that I was writing against Independency , it would exceed beliefe if . I should relate the indignation of all that party , and their severall expressions of the same against me , so that at that time there were no lesse nor fewer ignominious calumnies cast upon mee , nor more variety of virulent censures given out against me , then were uttered by them all to my disparagement , upon the late comming forth , but of the Title and Frontispice of the ensuing Discourse , many of them affirming , that I was a vaine glorious wicked fellow , that I was mad , that I was a base rogue , and that I deserved hanging , and that I would never be quiet till I were hanged , with innumerable other unchristian expression of like nature . So that it seems , it is a greater piaculum by farre now to write against the Independents and Sectaries then scandalum magnatum was a few yeares since . Truly at that time , I could scarce passe by any of them ( as I cannot at this day ) without some contumely or other , all which I beare with patience . And amongst others , I could never meet my Brother Burton , but he would alwayes after his salutation , in a deriding and scornefull manner , aske me , when my Book came forth , telling me that he expected some Monster . It seemes , he thought I was bringing forth such a prodigious brat as he not long after laid at my doore , which though it were a Monster indeed borne with teeth and nayles , and did nothing but scratch and bite me , yet comming from his loynes my Brother and quondam Fellow-sufferer , I gave it entertainment , and for the love I beare to him , I have ever since danled it upon the knee of my election : Now as soone as I had satisfied his expectation , and sent him my Booke so long looked for , he very liberally expressed his thankes for it , and his opinion concerning both it and my selfe , and that with many opprobrious words ; amidst others he asserted , I was crased in my braine , and that I had need of some hellebore , and spake of me as an Apostate and a Persecutor , who before he new my differing opinion from him , both prayed for me , and immoderately praysed me , such is the uncertainty of all that is under the Sunne , there being no stability in any creature ; and withall , hee triumphed that he would give me a speedy answer , making nothing of what I had written ( as it is usuall with all the Independents to vilipend and slight whatsoever the Presbyterians either speake or write ) and meeting with an other Independent not many dayes after , he told me that there were twenty pens at worke against me , and that I should have my hands full . And howsoever it was some moneths before I heard from any of them in print , yet all that interim they whetted their tongues against me like so many Razors , Swords and Arrows to wound me in my reputation ; yea , there was scarce a weapon in all the arsenall of calumny that they used not against me . Now after some moneths one Hanserdo Knollys comming to me , told me he had writ a moderate Answer unto my Booke , complayning that the Presses were all shut against them ( though the whole Kingdome know , and their daily scriblings in print can witnesse the contrary ; whereupon , to take away ( if it were possible ) all occasion of their calumnious tongues , I writ unto Reverend and Learned Master Cranford , intreating him that hee would for the stopping of all their mouths license his Booke , which he willingly , to pleasure me condescended unto , giving his reason withall in writing under his owne hand why he made such a transgression , the which Master Knollys concealed , wherein he dealt not candidly , for it gave great occasion to the Sectaries to traduce Master Cranford not a little . And after this was printed , came forth an other Pamphlet by one I. S. called Flagellum Flagolli , or Doctor Bastwicks quarters beaten up , which was the cause of the Title and Inscription of this Booke ; and I being not many weeks after at Westminster , some asking me there why I had not yet replyed unto them , I answered not in a triumphing manner ( as my brother Burton relateth ) but merrily , yet in respectful terms , that I understood my Brother Burtons Booke was comming forth against me , and when once that appeared I would answer them altogether . This is all as I remember was spake by me . Now they having their Emissaries and Lisners in all corners , it seemes some of them over-heard that which was spoken by me , which they related to my Brother Burton in other language then I uttered it , the which provoked him a fresh ( as he saith , page 1. ) in ar●nam descendere , and to take both my bookes in hand , and so una fidelia duos parietes ; and although he was disswaded from fowling his fingers with my Post-script ( as hee confesseth ) yet being ( as hee saith ) bound by a double ingagement , the one for the cause , the other for his person , he hasted at length as fast as before hee was slow to give me an answer to them both ; and howsoever I had not so much as named him in either of my Bookes , but onely sent him them ( he having desired it ) yet he being not capable of the good counsell that was given him by his friend , fouled not only his fingers with me , but the whole man , soule and body , picking a groundlesse quarrell with me , telling me though I named him not , that I had vellicated him , and pluckt him by the very beard ; and as the Prelate of Canterbury said once , that when I writ against the Pope I meant him ; so my Brother Burton imagined I meant him , because in my Post-script , pag. 44. I had these words , that not onely the Novices , Younkers , and Fresh-water souldiers , but grave men in their great white-basket-hilted Beards with their swords in their hands came out to fight against their brethren for their Independency , &c. which merry expression of mine , though I spake in the number of multitude , he applying unto himselfe , affirmes , that I meant him , as if there had beene none amongst the Independent in white-basket-hilted ▪ beards but himselfe , which moved him to great choler and indignation against mee , and so inraged him , that he sheweth nothing but passion through his whole Booke ( as will easily appeare to every one that readeth it ) in the which he tels mee that the Wise man saith , Prov. 20. ver . 29. & 16. 31. the beauty of old men is their gray head , yea a crown of Glory being found in the way of Righteousnesse , which I shall ever assent unto ; but if a gray head be found in the way of error , Schisme and Vnrighteousnesse ; then that place is not for his purpose . Now I shall referre these two Questions or Queries to the judgement of all solid Christians . First , Whether or no my Brother Burton be found in the way of Righteousnesse ? Secondly , Whether Independency be the way of Righteousnesse ? And to begin with the first ; in the second page of his Booke he promiseth me , that I shall not find with him so much as a white staffe to lift up against me , and yet in the seventh pag. he comes out against me with Phocions black Hatchet , which is his Pole-axe , with which he fals upon me soule and body , cleaving both my head and heart , sparing no part of me ; and in the same second page he promiseth me that he will answer me in the words of truth and sobernesse , and in the spirit of meeknesse and love . These are his words ; who would not thinke , that should heare him speak , but that he herad the sweet voice of Iacob ? yet if hee looke but into his Booke , before he commeth halfe way to the conclusion , he will soone see the rough hands of Esau , and well perceive that he answers me in the words of error and passion ; and in the spirit of bitternesse , insolency , and hatred , and that he hath learned that Lesson well Calumniare audacter , aliquid haerebit , calumniate boldly , something will sticke , which he hath done with as much acrimony , as I thinke any man ever did against a Brother , and quondam Fellow-sufferer , all which 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hard and harsh termes ; I can no lesse then spread before the Lord , the Righteous judge ever remembring Regium est male audire cum bene feceris . Now whether or no my Brother Burton in breaking thus his promise with me in all respects , and dealing so unrighteously and injuriously with mee , though he come out in his beautifull Gray Head , be found in the way of Righteousnesse , and be one of those men Solomon speaketh of , I referre it to the judgement of the Learned . But before I passe on to my second Querie , I shall take liberty to make use of some of Reverend and Learned Master Calamies words for the more corroborating the judgement of the Reader concerning this first question : He in his just and necessary Apology against my Brother Burtons unjuct invective concerning Truth shut out of doores , page 2. hath this expression concerning my brother Burton . His words ( saith he ) are swords and speares , rather then words . Hee fights with his heeles , rather then with his head , and kicks rather then argues , and whips rather then answers . Scarce any man since Montagues Appeal hath written with more bitterness . I may say of him as Dr Rivet doth of Bishop Montague , Non potest vir ille sine convitiis quenquam a quo dissentit vel in levissimis nominare , Rivet . Apol. this man cannot so much as mention any one from whom he differs in opinion , though it be but in the slightest matters , without reproach . And as Plato said to Diogenes , when hee trode upon the pride of Plato , thou treadest upon my pride with a greater pride : So ( saith Master Calamy ) doth Mr Burton tread upon me , and whatsoever is blame-worthy in me , with a pride more then episcopall ; and surely if to be railed upon and reviled be sufficient to bring a man into discredit , then I must be esteemed as the dung , off ▪ scouring , and filth of the world , &c. Thus that learned man truly spake of my brother Burton , whose faculty chiefly lies in abusing most men that differ from him , though but in the least things . But what Mr Calamy says of him , may also truly be said of Cretensis and all those of that fraternity , whose words are swords and spears , who all fight rather with their heels , then with their heads , and kick rather then argue , and whip rather then answer . Whether therfore such men as my brother Burton and his complices , though they come to us in gray heads , be found in the way of righteousnesse , when their dealings are so palpably unjust , and their opinions so schismaticall , hereticall and erroneous , I leave it to the judgement of all such as know what the way of righteousnesse is . And now I come to my second quaerie : viz. Whether the way of Independency be the way of righteousnesse ? My brother Burton writing in the name of all the Independents , pretends unto the people , and would make the world beleeve , that they are all Dependent upon Gods Word for all their proceedings , and affirmes moreover in the fifth page , that all their new gathered Churches and severall Congregations are all Dependent one upon another , both which assertions of his are most false , as will evidently appear to all those that know their practices and will vouchsafe but to read the insuing discourse , where they shall find , that they have neither precept nor president for their way of Independency in all Gods holy Word , and that there is not so much as one example in all the sacred Scriptures for any of their new practices ▪ wherein they differ from us ; and which is more that they all of them withhold the truth from the people in unrighteousnesse : How then can the way of Independency bee the way of righteousnesse , when it is a deviation from that way , as by their practices will be evidenced ; therefore for the confirmation of what I have now said , I will briefly examine some of their proceedings , and first whereas my brother Burton affirmeth that all their Churches are Dependent one upon another . This I say is most false . For all their proceedings in their severall congregations are carryed on in an arbitrary way ; whatsoever they publish in their writings and pretend to the people ( as all the learned and those that are acquainted with their method well know ) ; So that it lies in any one of their Churches breasts , and is at their pleasure , whether they will so much as confer or consult with each other ; and if they do at any time vouchsafe one another that courtesie , yet it is stil voluntary whether they will give each other an account of either their censures or proceedings ( for they all pretend as absolute a soveraignty and jurisdiction within themselvs severally as any free-states or common-wealths ) & have no authority one over another , neither can they appeal for any reliefe if wronged , one to or from another : And if any Member in any one of those Churches , or any one of those Churches divided amongst themselvs , or upon some eminent received wrong should fondly complain to another neighbour Church , that Church hath no power to relieve them no more then one private man can relieve another if he should be appealed to by another ; And if that Church should desire an account of the other Churches proceedings , that Church may refuse it , if it please them . But if to gratifie their desire , that Church should vouchsafe to condescend so far unto the other Church , as to give them a reason of their proceedings ; all this is but gratis , and out of their good nature ; they have still no power to call that Church in question that hath done the wrong , if that Church stands upon its points and priviledges , and saith that they have nothing to do with them . And what then is to be done in this case ? Then forsooth , they will withdraw communion from that Church , which , say they , is the highest censure any one Church can proceed to against another Church . Is not this , I pray , fine Dependency ? What more unrighteous dealing can be found in the world then this of the Independents , to professe themselves Independents , and yet to pretend a Dependency ? And when that comes to the tryall , they have no more reall Dependency one upon another , then we have with them ? Yea , what a great unrighteousnesse is this to pretend a Dependency one upon another and a communion amongst their new gathered Churches , when it is well known there is no more union and communion , nor true friendship amongst them then was between Herod and Pilate , they refusing the right hand of fellowship each to other in many of them ? Yea they are deadly enemies one to another , as can sufficiently be proved ( although they all agree together to persecute the Presbyterians , as Herod and Pilate did well accord to persecute Christ ) ; For I my selfe have heard the Independents protest against the Brownists , Anabaptists , Antinomians , and Seekers , and many other of the new fraternities , proclaming them all Sectaries : And on the other side , I have heard those severall societies rail against all the Independents , especially those Homothumadon dissenting brethren in the reverend Assembly , saying , New-England of as great tyranny as the Prelates : And it is well known , that many of the Independent congregations here amongst us have their different laws and customs , every one of them dissenting more or lesse from each other in their severall new gathered Churches ; yea they are ignorant of each others practices : For my Brother Burton and I. S. know not that the women in some of their congregations have their voices there ; and yet it can be proved , that they also have Peters keyes at their girdles as well as any of their Presbyters : And therefore their new Churches are not Dependent one upon another , as my brother Burton asserteth Page the fifth , when as they all of them exercise an absolute soveraignty amongst themselves Independent : What unrighteousnesse then is this in my brother Burton and in all the Independents to affirme that in all their Churches there is a Dependent Independency , or an Independent Dependency , which is but a contradictory bull at best , at the baiting whereof a man , if he regarded not mispending his time , might make far better sport , then he did some years since , in baiting the Popes Bull. The truth is , as their Religion is but a meer Babell , so all their language is confounded , and they are divided in their opinions , principles and practices , they being all really Independent : And therefore whether the way of Independency be the way of righteousnesse , where they are so unrighteous in all their proceedings , and when they say one thing and do and practice another , and when they withhold the truth from the people in unrighteousnesse , as all the Independent Predicants do , I refer it to the wisdome and judgement of the godly and consciencious Reader . But the unrighteousnesse of their way will yet more perspicuously appear if we but look into some other of their practices , which I shall by and by instance , the very consideration of the which ( the better to stirr up thy attention ) makes me boldly to conclude of them all , That whatsoever they pretend and whatsoever shews of seeming holinesse they hold out to the world , they are unsound , root and branch ; and neither the godly party , nor the praying people , nor the only Saints , but the most pharisaicall brood that ever yet appeared in the world , and more injurious to Christ the King of his Church and to his royalty , and to all his holy , faithfull Ministers and Servants , then ever the Pope or any of the Prelaticall party were , and more malicious and treacherous to the Saints , and truly godly and precious ones , and more opposers of all Reformation , then ever the Cavaliers were ; and many of them greater enemies to Church and State , and the welfare of both , then either Strafford or the Prelate of Canterbury . And as for the Independent government , as it is most certain it hath neither precept nor president for it in all Gods holy Word , so it is far more tyrannicall and lordly then that of the Pope or Prelates tending to nothing but an Anarchy and confusion in Church and State : And therefore that they with all their trumperies and desperate practices , with all their unrighteous dealing , ought to be abhorred and abominated , whatsoever seeming sanctimony they make shew of , by all such as truly fear God and wish the peace of Zion and the good of the State and Kingdomes in which they live . Now they that have a desire to see this charg made good against them , shall find it with the whole impeachment fully proved and made evident in the following discourse . But in the interim it will not be amisse to produce some few instances more of their practices for the proving of their Independency not to be the way of righteousnesse . If a man but look upon their superlative pride , especially the conceit they all of them have of their own holinesse and sanctity we shall find that it exceeds that of the very Scribes and Pharisees , for all the Independents and Sectaries stile themselves the holy people , the godly party , the praying people , the generation of the just , the Saints ; yea esteeming the very retrimentitious part of them ( to speak in their own dialect ) Saints , calling their most blasphemous opinions and practices , the infirmities of the Saints , in the mean time excluding the most godly Presbyterians from those titles , calling them the Antichristian brood , the enemies of Jesus Christ and his Kingdome , the sons of Beliall , and what not ? all which dealing with their brethren is not the way of righteousnesse : yea in their very prayers to God , they like the Pharisees boast of their own knowledge , slighting and vilifying all their Presbyterian brethren , disdaining so much as to pray for them ; yea in their publike Assemblies , and in their publike prayers they have been heard contemptuously to speak of those in authority asserting that they were not worthy of the prayers of the Saints , and it is well known that many of them will neither publickly nor privately joyn with their Presbyterian brethren in any duty of piety accounting them all as an Antichristian and unsanctified generation of men , and all this out of a strong and confident perswasion of their own holiness & out of an uncharitable opinion of their brethrens impurity , then the which strain of pride , the very Pharisees never exercised a greater ; all which practices of theirs sufficiently declare , that the way of Independency is not the way of righteousnesse : for greater unrighteousnesse there cannot be then this , as will by and by appear . But I will now come to some instances . Not long since at a great entertainment and festivity on the Lords day , when they were all met together , one of the Homothumadon brethren , a great man amongst them , beginning the duty of the day , in his Prayer before his Sermon , speaking unto God by way of complaint against the Presbyterians , said unto Him with many tears , Lord , they ( meaning the Presbyterians ) hate us because we know more of thee then they do ; but we beseech thee Lord give us still to know more of thee , and let them hate us more , if they will. But before I come to speak of this their prayer , and of some other passages of their other good prayers , I shall take the liberty here to say something of the difference between these mens practices , and the old Puritans of ENGLAND ; and so much the rather I do it , because they would perswade the world that there is little difference between them and the old Puritans ; yea one of their Itinerary Predicants not long since preaching in a publike Assembly , affirmed that there was no other difference between the Independents at this day and the old Puritans of ENGLAND but that the Independents were over-grown Puritans ; which I conceive , he meant in this sense , that the Independents outstripped them in all duties of piety and charity , and in all comely , seemly , orderly , and temperate walking in an unblameable conversation before God and men : This , I say , I conceive to be his meaning by the word overgrown : for I would not willingly put a worse interpretation upon his expression , and understand by overgrown , that he meant they were become monstrous ( Which notwithstanding too too many of them are ) ; therefore if his words be taken in the better sense , by overgrown he understands that the Independents have attained unto a higher degree of perfection then ever the old Puritans had attained unto , and that they now walke more closely in the way of righteousnesse then ever they did . I will first therefore set down some of the practices of the old Puritans , with the paths and wayes of righteousnesse they walked in , omitting many things for brevity sake though worthy of eternall memory and our everlasting imitation . For the old Puritants of ENGLAND , as those that have read their writings and knew their practices and were familiarly acquainted with them , they can testifie of them , that they were an humble , self-denying people , ever groaning under that burden of the remnant of sin , crying out with the Apostle Paul Rom. 7. Oh wretched man that I am , who shall deliver me from this body of death ? they never dreamed of a perfect holiness , nor never thought themselves more holy then others ; or presumed to call themselves Saints ; and if that title had at any time been given unto any of them by such as truly honoured them for their singular graces , you should ever hear them complain of their imperfections , and with the Apostle , Phil. 3. ver . 8 , 9. counting all things losse for the excellent knowledge of Jesus Christ , esteeming all their righteousnesse but dung , that they might win Christ and be found in him not having their own righteousnesse , &c. Now they that are acquainted with the Independents doctrine , words , and practices , hear them talk of nothing but of their own sanctity , and of their perfection , saying God can see no sin in them ; and although some of them do not professe so much in words , yet in deeds they allow of that doctrine , proclaming themselves to be the only Saints , the holy people , and the godly party , the generation of the just , and separate from their brethren as impure creatures : Therefore the Independents do not walk in that old way of righteousnesse the old Puritans of ENGLAND walked in , who made no separation in the worst times from the publike Assemblies , or ever refused to pray with their Christian brethren ; and therefore in this point they have not outstripped them nor overgrown them ; from which I boldly conclude , that herein that Predicant did abuse the world , in saying that there is no difference between the Independents and the old Puritants of ENGLAND ; For the old Puritans were humble , self denying men , and the Independents are pharisaicall boasters of their own holinesse and sanctity ; and therefore in this , their way is not the way of righteousnesse , but a great aberration from it . Again , the old Puritans of England , though never so learned , and never so sufficiently furnished with all accomplished abilities of divine knowledge , which many of them by their indefatigable pains , study , and industry , and by their prayers unto God night and day , and by their continuall waiting upon the Ordinances , and Gods blessing upon all their endeavours , had attained unto , so that they were taken notice of by all men , both in the Universities and amongst all the learned , to be incomparable men , many of the which I could name , yet not any one of them ever preached either in publike or private without great study and prayer , yea and without a speciall call ; and they alwayes with Saint Paul , exercised their Ministery in fear and much trembling , 1 Cor. 2. ver . 3. saying with him , 2 Cor. 2. 16. Who is sufficient for these things ? Those holy and godly Puritans , though transcendently learned , yet were always conversant in all holy duties , especially in preaching and prayer with fear and trembling , thinking themselves never sufficiently enough provided for , for those duties . And truly Saint Paul's example is worthy alwaies to be looked upon , who though he were immediately inspired by God himselfe and had alwayes the assistance of his spirit , and ten thousand times more learning then all the Independents put together , yet he preached alwayes with fear and trembling , and cryed out who is sufficient for these things ? Now if we compare the Independents and their Predicants with the old Puritans of England , we shall find the old Puritans alwaies and in all things imitating the example of holy Paul and the other Apostles in their Ministery , which they had a command to follow , Phil. 3. ver . 17. who intruded not themselves rashly upon the Ministery , as the false Apostles and Seducers usually did , and as all the Independents and Sectaries daily do ; they cryed out who is sufficient for these things ? and how can any preach except he be sent ? Rom. 10. saying No man taketh this honour unto himself , but he that is called of God , as Aaron , Hebr. 2. 4. Those old Puritans were all men of Saint Paul's spirit , they durst do nothing without a call , nothing without great study , nothing without their parchments and books , imitating Saint Paul in this , who would alwaies have his parchments with him ( that is his books ) bring me my parchments , saith he ; they preached not without fear and trembling ; this was the continuall practice of the old Puritans , they could never be seen in a Pulpit before they had some dayes prepared themselves by prayer and study ; and yet after all this , they would then cry out , Who is sufficient for these things ? Whereas all the Independents and Sectaries assert , that every man may preach , and every man of them is sufficient , and many also hold that women may preach ; yea and to manifest that they are all sufficient for these things , and for the dispensing of the great mysteries of Heaven , which the very Angels desired to pry into , they run through Town and Country , and wheresoever they come get up into the Pulpits and preach with such impudencie , impiety and blasphemy , as it is not lawfull to name , their very doctrines being so destructive to all piety , goodnesse , and good manners , and Ruffian ▪ like they go in their hair and apparrel , and so insolent and proud they are , that one would rather take them for Luciferians then Saints ; and such unbeseeming expressions they have in their prayers to God , as would terrifie a truly consciencious and godly man to hear them , as not long since one of them in London publickly speaking unto God in his prayer , said , Right Honorable Lord God , which kind of expressions as they are blasphemous , so ridiculous exposing Religion and the sacred Ordinances of God to ludibry and derision . But yet this is the dayly practice of the Sectaries through the Kingdome , far different from that of the old Puritans of England , and therefore in this point of fear and reverence , and of an holy awe of Gods divine Majestie and a reverend adoring of the ministery and mystery of the Gospell , Independents is not that either of the holy Apostles or of the old Puritans , there being as vast a difference between them , as between light and darknesse ; and therefore the way of Independency in this particular also is not the way of righteousnesse , but the way of rebellion and impudency . Againe , the old Puritans of England had all of them a reverend opinion of all in authority , and did ever beleeve that there was no power but of God , and that all powers were ordained of God , Rom. 13. and they beleeved that every soule ought to be subject to the higher power , and that whosoever resisted the power resisted the Ordinance of God , and for that their Rebellion they should receive to themselves damnation , and they ever believed that every soule ought to be subject unto authority , not onely for wrath , but also for conscience sake ; this was the Doctrine of the old Puritans of England ; and their practice in yeelding continuall obedience to them , and praying for them is knowne to all men ; yea , they did acknowledge , that as all power was given unto Jesus Christ in Heaven and Earth , Matth. 28. Psal . 2. so they did beleeve that all power in Church and State was derived from him , as the head of all Principalitie and power , who had said , Prov. 8. 15. 16. By me Kings raigne , and Princes decree justice ; by me Princes rule and Nobles , yea , all the Iudges of the earth , &c. this doctrine the old Puritans of England had learned and taught and were obedient unto , as having precept upon precept for it , as from the words above quoted out of the thirteenth of the Romans , so out of 1. Pet. chap. 2. verse 13 , 14. who said submit your selves to every Ordinance of man for the Lords sake , whether it be to the King as supreme , or unto Governors , as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evill Doers , and for the prayse of them that doe well ; for so is the w●ll of God , that with well doing , yet may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men . The old Puritans of England had fully learned this Lesson of obedience to all authority , both civill and Ecclesiasticall , being commanded to obey them that have the rule over them , and to submit themselves unto them , as who watched over their soules , as those that were to give account , &c. Hebr. 13. 17. and this doctrine they did inculcate incessantly unto the people ; and for the government Ecclesi●sticall the old Puritans of England did beleeve it was that Presbyterian Government that is now contended for by all the Presbyterians , as is to be seene at large in the learned Workes of that ever to be honoured Master Cartwright in his disputations against Bishop Whitgift , who for his zeale to that government was called the Father of all the Puritans . They also did beleeve that all government , both Ecclesiasticall and Civill , was radically , originally , and inherently in God , and Christ , and from them derived to the Kings , Princes , Nobles and Iudges of the earth , and to all the true Ministers of the Gospel in his Church , who all have their authorities immediatly from God , and by whom alone according to the Holy Scripture they rule and command ; they never durst be so blasphemous as to rob God of his honour and glory , and the Kings , Nobles , and Judges of the earth , and the Ministers of the Gospel of their severall powers , saying , that Kings and Nobles , and the Rulers of the earth , and Ministers in Christs Church and Kingdome were the creatures of the people , and that the people were the soveraigne Lord , both of Kings , Nobles , Parliaments , and Ministers , and that the authority which they exercised was inherently in the people , and that they might give it and deposite it into whose hands they pleased , and where they lusted , and call any of their Rulers and Governours to an account , and appoint them their times and seasons when they should meet , and tell them what they should doe , and displace them at pleasure as they shall thinke fit ; all these Lessons of Blasphemy the old Puritans of England were ignorant of , which learned nescience of theirs is commendable : They had beene better taught from all the Holy Prophets , and blessed Apostles , who both by precept and example have instructed the people of God in all ages to yeeld obedience to those that were Governors over them , as wee may reade through all the Holy Scripture of the Old Testament , where we find what reverence even Father Abraham , the Father of the faithfull , shewed unto all Kings , under whose government he lived in the time of his Peregrination , and where wee reade also what reverence Ioseph yeelded unto Pharaoh , and how Iacob his Father demeaned himselfe with all the Patriarks to Pharaoh , and those that were over them in authority , and how Ieremiah behaved himselfe to the King in his time , and how the three Children and Daniel carried themselves to the very Kings of Babylon , though heathen Princes , never speaking unto them , nor comming before them but with all reverence , deprecating all evil from them upon all occasions , & praying for their welfare ; yea , Christs example ought to be for our imitation , who opened not his mouth ; the same we find in all the Apostles , whensoever they were brought before authority , with what sweetnesse of language they carried themselves towards them , and what reverent expressions they used to all in authority , though never so wicked , when they were brought before them ; yea , if they had fayled but in the least expression , how soone they would recall themselves ; for when Ananias commanded them that stood by Paul to smite him on the mouth , Act. 23. and he in passion beholding his injustice , said , God shall smite thee thou painted wall , when it was replyed unto him , revilest thou Gods High Priest ? Paul stands not upon the justification of his words , but meekly answers , I wist not brethren that it was the High Priest ; for it is written ( saith he ) Exod. 22. 27. thou shalt not speake evill of the Ruler of the people ; Paul had learned his Lesson well , and soone recollected himselfe , acknowledging his error that he had deviated from the rule which is there recorded for all mens imitation in after times to the end of the world , to square their lives and obedience by ; they are not by that to speake evill of the Ruler of the people , whether he be Ecclesiasticall or civill ; and if they may not speake evill , then they may not resist their authority , and unihilate their power , which is the extremity of evill and rebellion ; yea , all men are forbid so much as in their Bed-chamber to curse or think evil of those in authority ; how much more are those then blame ▪ worthy , that not only think evill , but speak evill ; yea , write and publish evill against Kings , Nobles , and Judges of all sorts , both civill and Ecclesiasticall , and divest them all of their authority , speaking evill of Dignities , and assuming the Soveraignty of them all to themselves , & that from God him●elfe , calling themselves the soveraigne Lords of them all , giving them Lawes to rule by , and denying them their due reverence in the face of the Kingdome , as lately some of the Independents and Sectari●s have done , both to the House of Lords and Commons ? Surely such mens damnation sleeps not , whatsoever they pretend , and how highly soever they carry themselves , and by whom soever in these their evill doings they are supported , backed , and seconded : For Saint Peter in his second Epistle , that knew very well the mind of God concerning such men , in the second chapter saith this of all the wicked , verse 9 , 10 ▪ 11 , 12. &c. The Lord knoweth how to deliver the Godly out of temptations , and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgement to be punished , but chiefly them that walke after the flesh , and despise Dominion and Government , whom hee cals presumptuous , selfe-willed , that are not afraid to speake evill of Dignities , which the very Angels ( saith hee ) though they were greater in power and might , would not doe against the Devill being in authority , though it were usurped ; but those as naturall brute beasts made to be taken , and destroyed , speake evill of things they understand not , and shall utterly perish in their owne corruption , and shall receive the reward of unrighteousnesse . Here is a fearfull Doome pronounced against all such people as spake evill of Dignities ; and Saint Iude likewise in his Epistle seconds Saint Peter , verse 8 ▪ 9 , 10 , &c. calling such men as despise authority , and speake evill of Dignities , filthy Dreamers ; and compares them to brute beasts , and unto Cain , and unto Balaam , and unto Corah , Dathan and Abiram , pronouncing woe unto them all , and proclaiming them spots and deformities in all companies and societies , calling them moreover clouds without water , creatures empty of all goodnesse , trees whose fruit withereth , yea , without fruit , twice dead , here in this world in their sinnes and trespasses , and eternally in the world to come , and as if hee could never have spake enough of such men as despise Dominion , and speake evill of Dignities , hee cals them raging waves of the Sea , foming out their owne shame , wandring stars , to whom is reserved the blacknesse of darkenesse for ever , against whom he saith , the Lord will execute judgement for all their ungodly deeds , and for all their hard speeches , stiling them Murmurers , complayners , whose mouths speak great swelling words , having mens persons in admiration because of advantage , desiring all men to remember the words of the Holy Apostles , and of our Lord Jesus Christ , who fore-told the people of God , that there should be such Mockers in the last times , who should walke after their ungodly lusts , and that they might the better take notice of them and know who these men both Christ and the Apostles spake of , he saith they were such as should separate themselves , sensuall , not having the spirit ; he describes them to be an unsanctified race of men , whatsoever seeming holinesse they make a shew of , and such as ought to be avoyded and shunned of all such as desire to please God and avoyd that condemnation that was denounced against all such as despised dignities and resisted authority ; and even as the Lord by his servants commanded the people to separate from the company of Corah , Dathan , and Abiram , and to goe from their tents lest they were involved in the same miseries and calamities that were coming upon them for their rebellion against Moses : so ought all the people that indeed do truly fear God decline the companies and societies of all such as now oppose authority and make themselves the soveraign Lords of the Kings and Rulers and Judges that God hath appointed over them : for surely a greater unrighteousnesse cannot be perpetrated against God , then thus superciliously to trample upon authority , and to despise those that are over them , which is the dayly practice of the Independents and Sectaries ; all which unrighteousnesse the old Puritans of England were not guilty of having been better taught ; and therefore in this part of duty the Independents are different from the old Puritans of England , who walked not in this way of unrighteousnesse ; and therefore the Sactaries have not out-stripped them in this point of obedience to authority , but they are indeed overgrown , and are become monstrous in their rebellious practices : Yea , so far they are from reverencing those in authority , as they are grown to that height of pride and unrighteousnesse , as many of them will not so much as pray for the very Parliament or the Assembly either privately or publickly , as can sufficiently be proved by such as are acquainted with them and their practices : for not long since in a great Assembly and Congregation of Independents ; one of their Predicants being in prayer , after he had put up many petitions and requests in behalfe of their fraternity , thus expressed himself , speaking unto God , Now Lord ( saith he ) we should come to pray for the Parliament and Assembly , but they are not worthy the prayers of the Saints ; and so with disdain he passed them by as unworthy of their prayers , then the which what could be spake more wickedly and contrary to the practice of all the old Puritans of England , who in all their prayers and supplications private and publick , ever with tears prayed for all in authority ; I affirme that this practice of the Independents is not onely one of the highest strains of all unrighteousnesse , and contrary to the practice of all the old Puritans of England , but contrary to all the practice of all the Saints that ever yet lived in the world , and contrary to all the commands of God both in the Old and New Testament . For we have read how earnestly Moses prayed for the rebellious Israelites , wishing himselfe rather to be blotted out of the book of life then that the Lord should destroy them ; and so did Paul wish for his Countrymen the Jews : Samuel also when the people desired him to pray for them , 1 Sam. 12. v. 23. God forbid ( saith he ) that I should sin against the Lord in ceasing to pray for you &c. So that the holy Prophet makes it a sin in either Ministers or people not to pray for their brethren , and especially those in authority : for this was the practice of all the Prophets ; the Lord told a heathen King that Abraham his servant should pray for him ; yea father Abraham prayed for the very Sodomites , and the Kingdoms in which they dwelt , Gen. 18. And the people of Israel when they were in captivity in Babylon , had a command from God himselfe to pray for the welfare of very Babylon and the Princes of the same ; and we have read what supplications Daniel , Ezra , and Nehemiah put up in behalfe of those heathen Princes under which they lived , as well as for their own Countrymen . And Saint Paul gives it in charge to all Ministers and people , 1 Tim. 2. to pray for all men , ver . 1 , 2. I exhort ( saith he ) that first of all supplications , prayers , and intercessions , and giving of thanks be made for all men : For Kings , and all that are in authority , that we may lead a peaceable and quiet life in all godlinesse and honesty : For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour . So that here there is not onely an exhortation to all Christians in generall , but in speciall to Ministers to pray for all men : but primarily for those in authority ; and reasons & grounds are also given by the Apostle of incouragement to this duty : viz. because that it is a good and acceptable thing in the sight of God , tending also for the peace , quiet , and tranquillity of them all ; and which is more , to all godlinesse , which is the glory of all peace ; and therefore that they ought to pray for those in authority . And this exhortation of the Apostle , all the old Puritans of England did ever most diligently observe and follow , praying for them that were in authority night and day ; whereas the Sectaries were never in private heard pray for either King , or Parliament , or the Scots , or Assembly . How wicked a thing therefore is it in the Independents and Sectaries , and what a part of unrighteousnesse is it in them , dayly to omit this duty , who will neither pray with their brethren nor for them , but separate from all their societies as from a people unholy ? yea how impious and rebellious a thing is it in them , against both God and all authority , to say , and that in a disdainfull manner , even in their publike meeting places and congregations , that neither the Parliament nor Assembly are worthy their prayers ? yea it is well known and can be proved , that they pray against them and the King himselfe , and that not onely privately , but in their congregations publikely . Surely if either the Parliament , or Assembly , or the Presbyterians were as bad as the Kings of Babylon , or the persecuting Jews , yet they ought to be prayed for ; For we have a command to pray for all men , yea for our enemies , and those that persecute us and revile us ; and we have Christs example for it , who said , Father forgive them , they know not what they do , speaking of those that persecuted him , which Saint Stephen imitating , said , Lord lay not this sin to their charge ; supplicating likewise for his enemies . And so Saint Paul prayed for all those that forsook him when he appeared before Nero. Now when the Independents and Sectaries transgresse thus against precept upon précept , and against the example of all the holy Prophets , and Christ himselfe , and his blessed Apostles and Martyrs , and dayly by these their practices fight against God himselfe , and are in every thing so unlike the old Puritans of England , it is manifest that they have not outgrown them in this point of duty , and that the way of Independency is not the way of righteousnesse , but the way of error and open rebellion against God ; so that those glorious titles they assume unto themselves , of being the onely holy and praying people , and the Saints , and but the old Puritans of England overgrown , do not belong unto the Independents and Sectaries when they are so like the devill in all their practices : For it is sufficiently known & can be abundantly proved , that many of the Independents & Sectaries wil neither pray with the Presbyterians nor for them , no nor for King and Parliament , nor for the Assembly , nor for the Scots ; yea if need be , it can be proved , that they have prayed , and that publickly , against them all : yea their dayly Pamphlets witnesse what good affection they have towards them all , whose chiefe imployment it is ( except it be now and then by the way of slattery when they coaks the Parliament a little to gain their favour , that by their party in the house they may do the more mischiefe against the Presbyterians ) ; I say , except it be at such a nick of time , the whole imployment of all the Sectaries generally is abominably to abuse them and to raile and revile both the House of LORDS and COMMONS and the Assembly , and the Scots , and the City , and for the King they cannot hear of his very name with patience ; I can say thus much of them , and men also of good rank and reputation , that I never have heard more reviling speeches in my life against any men then they have uttered in my hearing , and in the audience of many , and that at the Parliament door ; affirming openly , that they were more tyrannicall then either Strafford or the Prelate , and greater persecutors then those of the High Commission Court , and this was the general language of all the Sectaries through the Kingdome , within this twelve Moneths , indeed since the recruiting of the House and since by that means they have strengthned their party , and they have of late shewed lesse favour to the Presbytery and the City , they have not been altogether publickly so boysterous in their expressions , yet notwithstanding privately amongst themselves they can speak daggers both against many worthy Members in the House of Commons , and against many of the Lords , and against the City , and against the Scots , and especially against the Assembly ; all the which they traduce at pleasure , with most of the proceedings of the House of Commons , if at least they do not humor them to their desires and designes ; yea many of their printed Pamphlets can witnesse for me that I wrong them not , and amongst others those that were writ by John Lilburne , who is but the mouth of the rest , who dares speak out what the other Sectaries dare but mutter , and therefore he is adored and exceedingly animated and countenanced by them all , and superlatively cryed up as the onely man of courage and animosity amongst all those of that fraternitie , and he makes all the Lords but Prerogative and King creatures , and the very House of Commons but the creature of the people , who may call them to an account when they please , and therefore ( for all their flatterie in their Petition ) it highly concerns the Great Councel and the whole kingdom , timely to look into their proceedings , & their clandestine machinations , lest that in recruting of the Parliament they doe so strengthen their faction , that in fine they destroy not only the Parliament it selfe , but the whole Kindome , and make themselves soveraigne Lords indeed ( as they pretend they are ) over both the King and Parliament , and all the people , and so become really our Lords and Masters , so that whereas formerly this nation was called the Popes and Prelates Asses , we may now justly be called and termed the Independents Mules , a monstrous brood indeed ; for it is sufficiently knowne , and can be proved , and that by good witnesse that it is their maxime , that the Saints only ought to rule the world , and to have the sword in their hand , aud they prove this their Doctrine out of the 149. Psame , where the Prophet saith , v. 5 , 6 , 7. &c. Let the Saints be jeyfull in glory , let them sing abroad upon their beds ; let the high prayses of God be in their mouth : and a two edged sword in their hand to execute vengeanee upon the Heathen , and punishments upon the people , to bind their Kings with chaines , and their Nobles with fetters of Iron , to execute upon them the judgement written ; this honour have all his Saints ; prayse yee the Lord. Upon this place of Holy Scripture they ground their opinion , that the Saints only ought to rule the Earth ; now they account none Saints but themselves , and all the Presbyterians enemies of Jesus Christ ; yea , they have beene heard say when they are amongst themselves , where they may speake freely , that they see no reason why the Saints may not compell any nation by the sword to come under obedience to Christs Kingdome . So that howsoever they challenge liberty of conscience now , saying that conscience is a tender thing , and that it ought not be forced ; yet if they but once get the day , they will give no toleration I beleeve to any Presbyterians ; yea , I am most assured , had but the Parliament voted for Independency as they did for the Presbyterie , they would have found Scripture enough then by which they would have proved that the Christian Magistrate might have forced any to come under obedience to Christs yoake , and then the example of Nehemiah would have beene exceedingly urged by them all , who seeking a through Reformation , would not suffer so much as the language of Ashdod to be spoke within his jurisdiction , but constrained them all to imbrace the true Religion , and sweare by God , that is to set up Gods true worship ; this example of Nehemiah I am confident would have beene urged , and that eagerly by them all , who at their first comming over from their pretended banishment ( I meane the Homothumadon Brethren , and those of New-England ) as long as they had any hopes of setting up their Independency were very frequently heard speake of a through Reformation , and alwayes commend noble Nehemiah for his zeale that hee would not suffer any false worship in Ierusalem ; but since they perceive their hopes are frustrate , now they labor for a toleration of all Religions , which both God , noble Nehemiah , and Ioshua , & all the Holy Prophets , Christ and his blessed Apostles continually were displeased with , and denounced judgements against ; all which holy Lawes now they desire may be dispensed with to gratifie them with a ful toleration of all religions , or at least with an indulgence for their new-fangled Independency , which by all their indeavours they make way apace for : and howsoever it was thought a thing worthy of death in Strafford and the Prelate of Canterbury , that they but laboured to alter the Lawes of the Land , and the Religion that was established by publick authority , and for the which they both suffered , the very Sectaries and Independents themselves being the principall Agents to bring them both to their end , who by their tumultuous and disorderly running up daily to Westminster , were never satisfied in craving justice at the Parliament against them , saying , that as resolution was the life of action , so execution was the life of the Law and justice , and would never be contented and appeased till they had obtained their desires against them , and only for this very cause as they pretended , that they indeavoured to alter the Lawes of the Land , and the Religion established by publick authority ; and many of our Fugitives were as eager in that busines as any of the rest , some of them standing upon the Scaffold to see the execution of them , and rejoycing at the justice done upon them ; and yet behold the very same men , are all of them guilty of the very same crime that they dyed for ; yea , of a farre greater ; for the Prelate and the Earle of Strafford were adjudged for but indeavouring to alter the Religion and Lawes established in the Kingdome ; but all the Sectaries and Independents they have really altered Religion , and have set up many new Religions , and that without any authority ; yea , they have altered both Law and Gospel , rejecting all the Holy Scriptures , and making nothing of the glorious Word of God , as can be proved , and they have not only established by their sole authority divers Religions amongst us that were never knowne before , but they proclame all the Presbyterians enemies of the Lord Jesus Christ , and the sons of Belial , and esteeme of them as so many Infidels in no wise to be communicated with in holy things . And for the fundamentall Lawes of the Land , they not only speake against them as a yoake of tyrannie and bondage unsupportable to be borne , but they write whole bookes against them , desiring they may be altered , notwithstanding all men injoy their lives and estates by them ; yea , they write not only in general against all the laws of the land , but against the very Ordinances of Parliament , daily publishing Pamphlets against all their proceedings , and especially they have taken great paines to dismount the Ordinance of Tythes established both by Law and a particular Ordinance of Parliament , they would faine starve the Presbyterians , preaching and practising hourely against the Covenant , and many knowne Ordinances : for whereas it was by Ordinances injoyned that none should preach publickly , but such as were authorised , and thought fit for the soundnesse of their Doctrine , and for the sufficiency of their parts and abilities ; and that nothing should be printed but by authority ; notwithstanding these Ordinances , the Sectaries and Independents both preach & print whatsoever they please to the seducing of the people , and for the perverting and corrupting of religion , and disturbance both of Church and State ; and whereas by an Ordinance of Parliament , the manner of government consisting of the three States , King , Peers and Commons , hath been againe and againe confirmed , & established with the sitting of the Reverend Assembly of Divines , and the ratifying of the Directory , and for the establishing of the Presbyterian government , neverthelesse they write against them all , especially the King , Peers , and Assembly , making nothing of them ; no nor of the ●ouse of Commons it selfe , if at any time they displease them , but they dash them all a peeces , subverting the whole government at once , proclaming the people the soveraigne Lords of them all ; and some of them have beene so temerarious , as they have abused the whole Parliament to their faces ; first the King , then the House of Commons , and then the House of Lords , slighting their authority and power , affirming that they could not so much as commit any freeborne subject to prison which every Justice of peace or Constable may doe ; yea , it is well knowne that in insolency they have exceeded all Delinquents that ever appeared before the great Councell of the Kingdome ; so that it may be spake to the honour both of Strafford and the Prelate of Canterbury , that they both of them behaved themselves with far greater modesty and reverence towards both Houses then many of the Sectaries have done , for they ever yeelded due honour and reverenciall respect unto them all , both with bowed knees , and gracefull and seeming language ; which those paultry Fellowes out of an insulting impudency denied them , despising Dignities and Dominions ; and these creatures have had their complices to applaud them in these their Rebelliouspractises , yea some of them have beene so bold as to petition the Parliament in their behalfe , though they could not be ignorant how unchristianly , unreverently , and undutifully they behaved themselves before them , which was the greatest affront that was ever offered to any Parliament , and the greatest breach of the priviledge of Parliament that hath beene knowne in any nation ; and yet all these things have beene perpetrated by the Independents and Sectaries , all which gracelesse proceedings the old Puritans of England abhorred , as the way of unrighteousnesse . This also can be proved that many of their Independent itinerary preachers run from place to place , preaching against the Nobility and Gentry , against the Citie , and against the Reverend Assembly , against the Directory , against Tythes , against the Presbytery ; yea against all that is called authority , and against all our gallant , renowned , and valiant presbyterian souldiers , saying in their Sermons , come out yee old base drunken whoremasterly rogues , shew what you have done for the safety of the Kingdome , ascribing all the glory of those noble victories to their owne party . Truly if I should make but a repetition of the very contents of their prayers , Sermons and diabolicall practises , and set downe but the very heads of them , it would fill a mightie volume , by all which it would evidently appeare that they are greater Delinquents against the Religion and Lawes established by publicke authority , then ever Strafford and the Prelate were , and greater Malignants to the State then ever the Cavaliers were , yea , greater enemies to all Reformation in Religion then ever appeared in the world before they were hatcht , and which is not the least thing of admiration and wonder in all these creatures , they are fledge in wickednesse as soone as they are disclosed . Truly , these their practises manifest unto the whole world that they are not the onely Saints , nor the old Puritans of England over-growne ; for it is notorious that all of them abhorred all these their ungodly proceedings , and therefore the way of Independency is not the way of righteousnesse , but the open way of sinne , heresie , and apparent Rebellion . But I will yet in a few things more compare the old Puritans of England , and the Sectaries and Independents together , before I come to speake of the prayer of that Homothumadon brother , I first made mention of . It is well knowne , that the old Puritans of England were all of them very zealous for the sanctifying of the Lords day , and their whole imployments on that day sufficiently declared to all those that were familiarly acquainted with them , that they were heavenly minded men , and such as were truly mortified , and dead unto the world , who denyed unto themselves usually those ordinary necessaries on that day , that at other times they would more freely partake in ; they dressed but little meat on that day , no more then very necessitie called for , not out of any penuriousnesse , but for this end , that their servants might be eased from all toyling workes , that they might the better attend upon the duties of the day ; and they were especially carefull , that both they and their children , with the strangers that were within their gates , should sanctifie that day ; they left none of them to ramble whether they pleased , they had well learned that Lesson , that they and their men-servants and maid-servants , with the stranger within their wals should keepe holy the Sabbath day , and did both by themselves and with their families take order , that no duty of the day should be omitted , the whole day being taken up either in prayer or meditation , or reading of the holy Scriptures , or hearing the Word , or repeating of Sermons , or singing of Psalmes , or instructing and catechising their Families , or in the works of charity , or visiting the sick , or in holy conference , or in reading godly books , or in performing of some duty or other that might bring glory to God , and honour to their holy profession , and their houses were generally so well ordered , and all things carried in such comelinesse and decencie , as he that had beene brought up in profane company , and had accidentally lighted into owne of their houses , would as much have wondred to see the excellent carriage of all things there , as the Queene of Sheba did to behold the ordering of Solomons house . I may truly speake this to their immortall praise , that I never saw in their Families the least disorder on those dayes ; nor never saw a Feast on that day , though at other times they were very free in their entertainments , and much given to Hospitalitie , and nigardly in nothing , and commonly they caused their Table-cloath to be spread on the Saturday before they went to bed , and they were carefull that all that were well in the Family should go to Church with them , and they had a singular care that all their servants might have no hindrances or impediments by any worldly imployments that might in the least disturbe them or dictract them from the duties of the day ; all these things I can witnesse with thousands more besides my selfe , were the practices of the old Puritans of England , and this was the way of Righteousnesse that they walked in , for the sanctifying of the Lords day . Now if the practice of the Independents and Sectaries about this busines and point of obedience be looked into , there will be found a vast difference betweene them and the old Puritans of England ; for it is well knowne that they ordinarily make all their greatest entertainments on that day , as that I spake of before for instance , ( and many more that I could mention ) where the whole Church was feasted to no small distraction to their poore and godly servants , that were taken up with more attendance that day , then Martha was on an ordinary day in entertaining of Christ himselfe , which not withstanding hee then blamed in very godly and beleeving Martha , who had learned to give Christ an honourable confession of her faith concerning her beliefe in him ; and doubtlesse if Martha were then blamed by Christ , and had from him a reproofe for her too much care about many things in entertaining himselfe ; I beleevee the Independents and Sectaries will receive but little thankes at his hand for profaning his owne day , and causing others to doe the same , and for their thus breaking and violating his holy Lawes , and hindring of his servants by their needlesse entertainments , from the duties of pietie and holinesse that he requires at their hands on those dayes , and he will say to them at the last judgement , as for these their disorderly walkings , so for their new and needlesse traditions , who required these things at your hands ? nay , did I not forbid these things will the Lord say ? Truly it is most notorious that the Sectaries and Independents are very loose in the sanctifying of the Lords day ; and although many of them before they fel into the way of Independencie were very conscionable observers of that day , and were greatly displeased with the King for granting but a toleration for sports on that day , and could then say , that very sinne alone had beene enough to bring downe the judgements of God upon the whole Land , yet since they turned Sectaries , they can now not only feast and ryot on that day , but if need be work on the same in their ordinary imployments , as can be proved , and many of them that were then great zealots for the performances of all duties of holinesse that day with all their Families , now regard not that day no more then an other , nay , they let their servants and children goe whether they please , leaving them all to the liberty ( as they speake ) of their owne consciences , and it is ordinarily observed , that all the Independents and Sectaries in the Armie , and through the whole Kingdome will frequently journey on that day , and for the Homothumadon Predicants , they are trundled about on the Lords day in their Coaches with foure Horses , needlessely disquieting both men and beasts that they have a command to give rest unto . A Tumbrell or a Dung-cart were fitter for these proud and profane Fellowes to be carried about in ; and if they will not leave these their licentious courses , and surcease thus to profane the Lords day , I see no reason but that the Magistrate should take some order with them , and punish them for profaning it , it being not only against the Lawes of God , but contrary unto the Lawes of the Land. It may be that is one of the Lawes that the Sectaries would have abrogated and made null ; for most certaine it is their practises are both contrary to that Law , and the knowne Law of God , and the practise of all the old Puritans of England , and therefore the way of Independency in this point also is not the way of Righteousnesse , but of profanesse and licentiousnesse , neither are they overgrowne Puritans in this . But seeing I have upon this occasion , began to compare the old Puritans of England with the Independents and Sectaries , who their Predicants assert are but the old Puritans over-growne , that is , Christians in all respects , transcending them in all duties of piety and godlinesse , and in all offices of Love and Charity towards others , and in the whole frame of their lives and conversations , and for their uprightnesse and honesty in their dealings , and for their sincerity in all their actions , and for their moderation in the temperate use of all the creatures , and for their humble walking towards others . I shall briefly here set downe the practices of the old Puritans concerning some of these particulars , and parallel them with the proceedings of the Independents and Sectaries of our times . It is sufficiently knowne , that the old Puritans of England ever loved and honoured all the Orthodox , faithfull , painefull , and diligent Preachers of the Word of God through the Land , whether Conformists or non-Conformists , and they never thought they could yeeld them reverence enough , and were willing at any time to the uttermost of their abilities to relieve and supply them with all necessary accomodations , for the support of themselves , and their Families , and they were so farre from taking from them any thing , or hindring them of their dues , either in respect of honour , or maintenance ; that they would run and ride in their behalfe for the maintaining of their reputations and livelyhoods , and if at any time they had beene oppressed by the power and tyrannie of the Prelates in any Court , or by any wicked enemies of the Church , they had the assistance , and ever the good word of the old Puritans , and their prayers , and their purses to support them , and sustaine both them and their Families ; they were never knowne to desert them , or to give them an ill word ; and this was the carriage of the old Puritans of England towards their godly and painfull Ministers of all sorts , and they never favoured any hereticall , and schismaticall Teachers , and this was that way of Righteousnesse they walked in . Now if we looke upon the practices of the Independents and Sectaries they are chiefest enemies of all the painefull and godly Ministers through the Kingdome , and the only friends of all Seducers , schismaticall and hereticall Preachers , so that it is well knowne , they doe not only reproach , and abuse them in words , calling them Baals Priests , the limbs of Antichrist , and the Devils Ministers , and a thousand such ignominious names , but so persecute them in word and deeds that they cannot safely dwell by them where there is any number of the Sectaries ; yea , there is scarce a Committee through the Kingdome where they have not persecuted their most faithfull Ministers , yea it is their chiefe designe to take away their Tythes from them , and to deprive them of their Livings , by which they should support themselvs , and their poor Families , and they have made the lives of many of them so irkesome unto them , and so wearied them with their calumnies and carriage towards them , that though they highly honoured them before they turned Sectaries , yet after that , they became their mortall enemies , and for no other reason but that they continued still to preach those orthodox doctrines they had formerly taught , & inveighed against the dangerous and blasphemous opinions that were now preached up every where by the Seducers of these times , & for this cause alone , and for no other ground they have wearied many of them out of their very lives , and forced others to leave their places of their habitations ; many presidents of this kind I could produce , but one I cannot but instance , and that is of one Master Beton of Rye , in Sussex , a most painefull , orthodox , and laborious Preacher , and a man of no small fame , as well for his godly life , and diligence in his Ministry , as for his singular knowledge in Hebrew , and all the orientall tongues , and yet this man every way so unblameable and accomplished , did the Sectaries joyning with all the Malignants of that place , drive from his habitation there . The ful story of that particular businesse would make a pretty larg book , which would sad the hearts of all such as are truly godly , to hear that any that pretend unto Christian Religion should practise so contrary unto all Christian principles and the practice of the old Puritans of ENGLAND ; and yet what those Sectaries of Rye with their complices have done against that godly and learned Minister , is generally practiced by all the other Sectaries and Independents through the Kingdome , as can sufficiently be proved , who generally implacably hate those that they have formerly loved , and have still a cause to honour ; as who next under God have been a means of their conversion , if ever they were really converted : So that in these their proceedings , they are not the old Puritans of ENGLAND overgrown , which walked in the way of righteousnesse in honouring their faithfull Ministers according to Gods command , 1 Thess . 5. and Heb. 13. Which way the Independents do not walk in , but in the contrary way of malice and hatred towards them , as all their practices proclame : Therefore inthis respect also the way of Independency is not the way of Righteousnesse . And as for their charity and practice of love , and their integrity and sincere dealing towards their brethren , the old Puritans of ENGLAND were famous for their re●dinesse to pleasure them in any thing , who would at any time ride , ●un , or go , to do any neighbour that dwelt peaceably by them a good turn , yea though they differed some thing from them in judgement ; whereas it can be proved that the Independents will take great and dangerous journeys to do any of their Presbyterian brethen m●●chi●fe , to defame and traduce them , and to hinder their preferment ; yea and they will do it to such also as they seem to be very loving , and shew an outward kindnesse to : And yet at that very infrant of time they most faune upon them , they will fearfully betray them ; yea it is well known , that some of the Independents have betrayed their own fathers , their masters , their most familiar friends and acquaintance after they have turned from the Tresbyterian way to that faction , especially they use exceedingly to hate such as they professed greatly to love , if they have found them rigid , as they speak , or unmoveable in their Religion , and would not connive at their Independent wayes . I could say much upon my own experience , how many of the Sectaries seemed not a little to honour me , and spake as well of me as of any man living , before they saw they could not prevaile with me to be of their mind , nor to favour them in their erroneous opinions ; but as soon as they perceived that I was immoveable in my resolution , their love turned into implacable hatred , as it is well known . And I am confident there might be thousands of presidents produced of the like nature , many of which I know ; yea I may truly say this , that I have not known any Presbyterian now living that was formerly familiarly acquainted with any that afterward turn'd Sectary or Independent ( notwithstanding whatsoever courtesies they had formerly received from them ) that have not either betrayed him or done him some ill office afterward , or at least would never do him the least kindnesse , though he were in need , or shew him any favour ; So that in this point of love and charity , they walk not in the way of the old Puritans , who were kind to all men and sincere towards those they had familiarly conversed with , it never being known that they betrayed any of them or did them any ill offices ; and therefore in this point also , the way of Independency is not the way of righteousnesse nor the way of the old Puritans of ENGLAND , but the way of treachery , unthankfulnesse and unrighteousnesse . But to instance the practices and wayes of the old Puritans in a few things more , and then to compare them with the wayes of the Independents and Sectaries . The old Puritans of ENGLAND , as all can witnesse that knew them , were all of them generally men no way addicted to the pleasures of the world , and in their apparell and outward garbe commonly they were ever out of fashion : It was , to my knowledg , counted a great sin amongst them , to exceed in apparrell , or to be fashionably clad , or to go with long hair , or Rufsian ▪ like , or to be seen in gorgeous attire ; You should rarely or seldome behold any gold or silver lace on any of their apparrell , except they had been of noble Parentage , or of some very great and rich Families , or in some eminent place of authority , and that was alwayes very sparing ; and for cuffs at their hands , not one of a thousand of the old Puritans were ever seen in any ; and if they at any time upon any festivity , or at any solemn entertainment , or upon such like occasion appeared in any , they were commonly such little sucking ones as a man could scarse discern them . Now if you look upon all the Independents generally through Town and Country , though they were never born to any estates , nor were of any repute , till that out of the ruines of the Kingdome by their Sectarisme and indirect dealings they have attained to some wealth ; You shall find them the only gallants of the world , so that one that should meet them would take them for Roarers and Ruffians rather then Saints ; Yea you shall find them with cuffs , and those great ones , at their very heels , and with more silver and gold upon their clothes , and at their heels ( for those upstarts must now be in their silver spurs ) then many great and honourable personages have in their purses ; so that those that behold them , if they knew them not , would take them to be the Gentry and Peers of the Kingdome rather then a company of obscure fellows , in so much that some taking notice of the great change in this Kingdome said not long since , that Gentlemen and Noblemen were become beggers , and beggers were become Lords and Gentlemen . Truly the like pride in apparell was never seen amongst such as made profession of Religion before these our times ; Whereas the old Puritans of ENGLAND , both men and women , were all modestly cladd and attired , and went very plain , and thought it rather a scandall to Religion to be attired or cladd in the least manner after the fashion of the Court , then for an honour to their profession ; and I have known them blame those that abhorred all pride as much as any men did , and onely for that they went handsomely cladd and apparrelled , although it were onely for the gracing of their profession , as they then told them , for the which they were at that time sufferers . So that if those people were now alive , those old Puritans , and should see our Sectaries and Independents who predicate themselves to be the onely Saints , those good old Puritans would lift up their hands with admiration , and say , as one of New England said not long since seeing a brother of his coming over thither very gallant whom he had known live in a meaner condition , that in beholding him he thought he saw one of the seven wonders of the world , and profest that he believed they would ere long grow mad with pride in Old ENGLAND , saying moreover that in his time ( he having then been but ten years in New England ) he that should have been seen go in those fashions the Sectaries and Independents usually and daily now go in , would have been thought to have had little Religion in him , and he exceedingly marvelled at the liberty all those of the Congregationall way now take , saying , that he much suspected their sincerity that now made that a vertue and counted that an honour to Religion which the old Puritans of England deemed a dishonour to God , and a disgrace and dishonour to their holy profession . So that in this point also , the practices and way of the Sectaries is not the way of the old Puritans of England and the way of righteousnesse , it being the way of vanity and the world , and contrary unto the command of the Apostle Saint Paul Rom. 12. ver . 2 , 3 , 4. Again whereas the old Puritans of ENGLAND had their fare , diet , and houshold ▪ stuffe , how rich in estate soever they were , according to their severall degrees , were it a Yeoman or but an ordinary Gentleman , or a Knight , they ever observed their rank ; whatsoever , I say , or how great soever the estates of each of them were ; the Yeoman had his house furnished and fared like a Yeoman and not like a Gentleman ; the Gentleman he also fared like a Gentleman , and had his house furnished accordingly , and not like a Knight ; the Knight in like manner fared like a Knight , and had his house furnished according to his rank , and not like a Lord ; All the old Puritans of ENGLAND every one of them out of conscience observed and kept their rank , and lived and fared according to that degree and order God had placed them in this world , and used their superfluity for the clothing of the naked , and feeding of the necessitated , and relieving of the poor , many of the which rich Yeomen , Gentlemen , and Knights I could name , some of the which to my knowledge layed by yearly out of their estates and revenues some two hundred pounds , some three hundred , yea some five hundred pounds all their life time , which they sent to the godly Ministers here and there dispersed through the Kingdome to be distributed amongst the poor and necessitated Christians in those parts , and this was the practice of the old rich Puritans of ENGLAND ; yea , many of them maintained a preaching orthodox Minister in some blind corner of the Kingdome at their own charges ; others of them alwaies entertained one silenced Minister or other , or took poor necessitated Christians children into their Families and bred them as their own : I can speak much to the praise of God and to many of their immortall honours upon my own experience concerning the charity of the old Puritans of ENGLAND , who ever kept their ranks , whatsoever their wealth and riches were , and would never exceed in houshold-stuffe , in fare , or diet , whatsoever their hospitality was ; which notwithstanding was many times very great ; and this order and decency they observed out of conscience , and that they might the better relieve the necessities of others ; and this was the way the old Puritans of ENGLAND , to my knowledge , walked in , and this was the way of righteousnesse as approved on and commanded by God himselfe , and yet the old Puritans of ENGLAND knew their Christian liberty and what right they had to the creature , as well as any Sectary or Independent in our times . Now if we compare the Independents and Sectaries , in respect of this custome , with the old Puritans of ENGLAND , we shall not find them the old Puritans of ENGLAND overgrown , that is , to exceed them in all these graces of charity , wisdome , moderation , frugality , and orderly walking every one according to that rank and station God hath placed them in : for the Sectaries have all of them changed this ancient custome and way of righteousnesse , and are all run , as in their opinions , into the way of error , so in this , into the by ▪ path of luxury and sensuality : So that the Sectaries generally , although the greatest part of them through the Kingdome as it is well known , are such as are but newly sprung up out of the ruines of the State , and that were never borne to any thing , yea many of them , before the troubles of the Kingdome , having scarce bread to put in their mouths ; yet now are grown to such a height of pride and luxury and sumptuosity , that you shall find their houses furnished rather like Noblemen and Peers , then ordinary men ; and ye shall see more plate in their dwellings , and all things with more bravery and elegancy , then in the pallaces of the Grandees of the Earth ; and their fare and dietis so delicious , and set out with such curiosity of cookery and all things correspondent to it , in respect of all sorts of wines and dilicacies and whatsoever rarities the seasons and time of the year will afford , as they exceed the very Princes of the world , by report of those that have been at their entertainments ; so that Dives in all his glory exceeded them not . Yea , it is well known and can be proved , that many of them that were never born to three halfpence a year of inheritance , nor never were worth any thing but what they have got in these troublesome times by the ruines and miseries of others , that these very fellows are tasters to all the Noblemen and Peers of the Kingdome : And their very Predicants are grown so dainty that they must be served before the Lords and mighty rich men in all markets ; for they will outbid the greatest of them for the satisfying of their pallates : So that whatsoever rarities , according to the severall seasons of the year , whether from sea or land , are stirring , they are ordinarily the men that have the first gusto of them ; So that they exceed the daintyest and most delicate Dames and Ladies , by the relation of those that are acquainted with their diets ; so that all fine things are tasted and eat in their houses before they are so much as heard of in Noblemens Families , whereas the old Puritans of ENGLAND denyed themselves all these things , who were usually , according to the proverbe , the first that were last served . This I have heard affirmed by great Gentlemen and travellers , very gallant men , that were sometime very intimate with the Sectaries and Independents , whose familiarity they made use of onely to pry into their severall humours , and whom the Sectaries had some hope to have gained to their party ; and therefore spared not in their entertainments ; these very Gentlemen , I say , have asserted unto me , that whatsoever things were thought some ten years since to be rarities in all Princes , Dukes , Marquesses , and Noblemens houses , and were rarely to be found in any other places , they met dayly with them in every ordinary Independent and Sectaries house upon all occasions ; So that they vowed unto me , they thought them the onely Helieogabalists in the world , and the greatest Sensualists ; and they observed that generally there was more luxurious entertainments now amongst them in these times that called for mourning and fasting , then ever were in the richest Subjects houses in the times of the Kingdomes prosperity ; So that if ever there were a generation of men in the world that in their fulnesse of bread and in their felicity forgot the afflictions of Joseph , they were the Independents and Sectaries who are alwayes feasting , which was one of the principall causes , as they profest unto me , that made them beleeve they were not the onely Saints , their actions being so unsaint-like ; which made them also pry farther into their dealings and proceedings , which they found to be altogether contrary unto the royall law of Love : for as they said , all their charity was ever limited within the confines of their own fraternity , and to such onely as were either of their party or they had hopes to gain ; in all which things they are different from the old Puritans of ENGLAND , who walked in that way of righteousnesse which teacheth every man a moderation and right use of the creature , and to keep within their bounds , and to extend their charity towards all , especially towards the poor and indigent ; and not to spend all upon themselves in luxury and vanity , and that at such times as call for mourning and fasting , and when there are such multitudes of distressed godly families as are drove from house and home and have been made a prey to the spoilers , whom the Sectaries will see lie famishing in the streets , rather then they shall receive the least reliefe from them , unlesse they will become of their fraternity , which many of them to my knowledge out of meer necessity were forced to be , or else they could not have had the least reliefe from them , which is not the way of righteousnesse , and that way God hath chalked out through his holy Word for all his Saints and Servants to walk in , saying , that they should always have the poor amongst them , and that their charity should be extended to all ; and therefore commands all his servants Mat. 5. ver . 48. to be perfect as their heavenly father is perfect , and ver . 44 , 45 , 46 , 47. injoyning them , That they should love their enemies , and blesse them that curse them , and do good to them that hate them , and pray for them that despightfully use them and persecute them . And telling all his servants , That by their so doing , they shall shew themselves to be children indeed of their heavenly father , who makes his Sun to rise on the evill and on the good , and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust ; saying , If you love them only that love you , what reward have you ? Do not even the Publicans the same ? And if you salute your brethren only , what do you more then others ? Do not even the Publicans so ? And then the Lord set before all his people his own example for their imitation , to teach them to do good unto all ; and this was the way of righteousnesse the old Puritans of ENGLAND walked in , doing good to all ; which the Sectaries have quite forsaken : For it can sufficiently be proved , that all their charity is confined to those of their severall sects : So that if at any time they have been sent unto and solicited by such as knew how wealthy they were , and able to relieve others , and how ready also and open ▪ hearted and handed they had formerly been ( which was their praise and honour ) to the relieving of any that were in necessity , especially if they were godly ; those men , I say , having no ability to relieve them , they being themselves poor , yet with speciall recommendations , as perfectly knowing them to be such as feared God , sent them to such of the Sectaries as they knew were very able , and at that time very free to all those that were necessitated of their own party , yet could not obtain the least reliefe from them in the behalfe of others , though withall they made known unto them , that those they commended unto their charity had formerly relieved many , and were now brought to that great poverty , that they had not bread to put in their own mouths nor their childrens bellies , through the cruelty & robbery of their barbarous enemies , and were escaped only with their lives ; I say , notwithstanding all the importunity of those that solicited those Sectaries , and notwithstanding the great indigency and present necessity they were all in , they could not extort the least reliefe from them , it being replyed and answered , that they had enough to relieve of their own , telling them , that they should go to those that were of their own party , and to the Collectors in every parish ; saying , that they must have a care of such as were in Church fellowship with them ; and thus they have shut up all bowels of compassion to all those that are of a different opinion from themselves , especially to all those that are of the Presbyterian way , as can be proved by innumerable witnesses . Yea , they are come to such a height of indignation against the Presbyterians , and so far they are from relieving any of them , as they will wish their ruine , and this is the way the Sectaries now walk in , which is not the way of righteousnesse nor of the old Puritans of ENGLAND ; for the way of righteousnesse is , that they should love their enemies , and do good to them that hate them . Now all the Independents say that the Presbyterians hate them , for so in their very prayers they intimate to God himselfe , that I may now returne to that prayer I formerly mentioned made by the Homothumadon Brother at the great Venison Feast on the Lords day in one of the grand Sectaries houses , where all their Church was entertained : He in his prayer spake unto God in this manner , Lord ( saith he ) they ( meaning the Presbyterians ) hate us , because we know more of thee then they doe ; we beseech thee Lord give us to know yet more of thee , and then let them hate us more if they will , &c. Here we see they complaine unto God himselfe ( though falsely ) that we hate them ; now if they walked in the way of Righteousnesse that God hath appointed them to walke in , they should doe us good and pray for us , and not be so uncharitable as to pray against us , and to requite evill for evill , which is the way they walke in , and which was not the way of the old Puritans of England , who had better learned their Lesson of love and charity . But now to consider this prayer a little , and some other of their expressions , and the high prayses that upon all occasions they give of themselves , by all which it will yet the better appeare that they are not the old Puritans of England over-grown in goodnesse , and exceeding them in selfe-deniall , and in all points of piety , godlinesse , and charity , and in truth and righteousnesse ; for this very prayer of theirs , with their other speeches and practices , proclame to the world the quite contrary ; for I affirme , first that the old Puritans never magnified their owne graces : And secondly , that both this prayer and many of their other prayers to God , & prayses of themselves , are both untrue , Pharisaicall and uncharitable ; for the Presbyterians doe not hate them , as they falsely accuse them , but it is they that hate the Presbyterians , as all their words and actions , and Pamphlets can testifie . The Presbyterians as they are bound , hate all false wayes , but they hate not the persons of any , that is the practice of all the Sectaries , as it is well knowne . But whereas this Homothumadon Brother said , that they knew more of God then the Presbyterians , it is most false ; for all the workes and writings of the Presbyterians in all the Reformed Churches can prove and witnesse the contrary , so that the Sectaries are all of them beholding to the learned Workes and Writings of the Presbyterians for all that is in any of them worthy the name of knowledge , out of whose learned Bookes they have stole it ; and I undertake it , and shall ever by the grace of God be able to make it good , that in all their preachments they deliver nothing that can deservedly be called truth , but it hath beene taught by the Presbyterians before they were borne , and that far better then any of them can teach it ; and it is most certaine that there is more knowledge in some one of Calvins Workes , as that of his Institutions , then is in all the Independents and Sectaries put together , which very Booke alone , with the Holy Scripture had it beene diligently read and studied by the people , the Independents and Sectaries , with all their plots and devices could never have gained an hundred Proselytes . Yea , if young Divines would but well reade and study learned Mr. Calvins Workes , and but Gualter Tigurinus his Writings , with Peter Martyrs , and Zanchius , passing by thousands of other most learned and orthodox Divines , I say if they would but diligently reade and study these I have now named , the Independents would never be able with all their skill to seduce any one of them . Or did but ordinary Christians now adayes , reade but Calvins Institutions , and but Master Perkins upon Iude , with the Holy Scripture , they would quickly relinquish all their Independent companies , and their new gathered Churches , and would soone perceive that the Sectaries know not more of God , and of Jesus Christ then the Presbyterians doe ; and if poore deluded soules would but carefully and seriously reade the learned Writings of our owne countrey men , as the Workes of Reverend Master Richard Rogers , of Master Dod , Master Iohn Rogers of Dedham , Master George Walker , Master Bolton , Master Iackson of Woodstreet , Master Scudder , Master Bal , or any one of a thousand of our godly Divines that have writ before these Sectaries appeared in the world , they would find that for all both Theoricall and Practicall Divinity , they knew as much of God , yea farre more then any Independents and Sectaries in the world : And yet this is the daily language of the Sectaries , both in their prayers and in their prattle , that any one of their congregationall way , knowes more then a thousand Presbyterians ; yea , they have beene often heard say , that every boy and woman in their society can confute any Presbyterian ; and upon all occasions they say that they never heard so much of Jesus Christ before these Sectaries appeared , affirming , that free grace was never so richly taught , as it is now by the Independents , when notwithstanding it is most certaine that for all saving knowledge whatsoever can be taught or spake concerning the knowledge of God , and of Jesus Christ , wherein consists life eternall , Iohn 17 , it hath beene a thousand times better taught , and farre more orthodoxly by the Presbyterians then the Sectaries can teach it ; and therefore when they say , that never so much of Jesus Christ and of free grace was taught before these times , it is not only injurious to all the Protestant Divines at home and abroad , and exceedingly derogatory to them all ; but to all the holy Prophets and blessed Apostles which have taught us as much concerning God and Jesus Christ , as in the wisdome of God himselfe was thought fit for mortall men to know of God and Christ , whether wee speake either of the divine Essence of God , or of the persons of the blessed Trinity , or of the glorious Workes , names , titles and attributes of God , or whether we speake of both the natures of Iesus Christ , the divine and humane nature , or of the hypostaticall union of them both , or of what Christ hath either done or suffered for us , or of his offices , either Kingly , Priestly , or Propheticall , or of whatsoever is necessarily to bee knowne for our salvation : I say and affirme , that whatsoever is requisite for our learning , is abundantly and clearly set downe in the Holy Word of God , by the holy Prophets and blessed Apostles , and hath faithfully and orthodoxly beene taught and delivered by our holy , godly , painfull , and learned Presbyterian Ministers in all the Reformed Churches beyond the Seas , and in these Churches of England , Scotland and Ireland , and that far better , and more soundly and solidly then ever it was or can be taught by any Sectaries ; for it is well knowne , that our religious Presbyterian Ministers had as much of the assistance of the holy Spirit , as ever any Sectaries had , and far more learning then they are either capable of , or can attaine unto ; and therefore it is not truly nor humbly spake by the Independents , continually to say they know more of God then they , and to assert that Jesus Christ , and free grace was never so much , and so well taught , as by the Sectaries ; and yet these are their daily brags and boasts , and by the which they with-draw multitudes of simple people to their Predicants and Tub-men , and then under pretence of preaching Jesus Christ and free grace , they teach their errors and heresies , and vent all their blasphemous doctrines , and destructive opinions amongst them to the destroying of their poore soules . But should I grant unto these men ( which were wickednesse in me to doe ) that they did truly and indeed preach Jesus Christ and free grace , yet to say that they preached them more clearly , more fully , and better then ever they were formerly taught , is not farre from blasphemy , and exceedingly injurious and derogatory to the holy Scripture ; for all knowledge that wee are to take notice of concerning God and Christ , is shut up and contained in the holy Scriptures , out of whose confines we are not to seeke for any knowledge concerning either God or Christ ; for wee have a speciall command given us by Christ himselfe , Iohn 5. to search the Scriptures , and we are sent to Moses and the Prophets by Father Abraham , Luke 16. 29. and in the 8. of Isaiah , wee are sent to the Law and the testimony , so that they that speake not according to that word , it is because there is no light in them ; and Saint Paul in the 1. of the Galat. 8 , 9. saith that if an Angel from Heaven should teach us any other doctrine concerning Iesus Christ then that which wee have heard , and learned in the holy Scriptures , we should count him accursed ; and therefore if the Sectaries and Independents teach but according to the holy Scripture , then all they teach concerning Christ and free grace was taught long before any of the Sectaries were borne , and all they say boastingly vaunting of this their owne knowledge and preaching , and of these their new wayes , they are not the way of Righteousnesse , which teaches all men meanly and humbly to think of themselves , and in honour to prefer others before themselves , Rom. 12 , ver . 10. and in lowlinesse of mind , to esteeme others better then themselves , Phil. 2. verse 3 , 4. and this is the way of Righteousnesse God hath appointed his people to walke in , and this was the way the old Puritans of England kept in , who never boasted they knew more of God and Jesus Christ then their Christian Brethren , as the Independents and Sectaries daily doe , which is the very height of Pharisaicall pride in them to assume these Prerogativesunto themselves , and to receive them from others as to be the only Teachers and Preachers of Iesus Christ and free grace , and to be the most illuminated and eminent Saints and servants of Christ , and the most excellent lights , which titles are given lately to the Homothumadon dissenting brethren by one of the Sectaries in a frothy Pamphlet , called Independency no Schisme , in a pretended answer to Master Iohn Vicars , who hath writ nothing concerning them but what is Vox populi , and most of it knowne to all men to be true : Yea , they are growne to that height of pride and impudencie that they vent their singular knowledge of divine mysteries above others , as we may see in Saint Dels Epistle to the Reader before his Sermon , ( where he speaketh ) of the great familiarity he hath with Iesus Christ , and of some rare knowledge that hee hath received from him of the mind and bosome of the Father , &c. these are his own words , and he esteems of his Presbyterian brethren as of the off-scouring of the world , saying , that he was counted worthy to be taken into some Fellowship with Christ in his sufferings , and to endure the contradictions of sinners , and oft times to encounter the rage and madnesse of men , yea and to fight with men after the manner of beasts , altogether brutish and furious . This high esteeme S. Del hath of himselfe , and counts all his Presbyterian brethren , though in all mens judgements that know them he writes against , far more pious and orthodox then himselfe , but brute beasts . Now because these men talke so much of their singular knowledge before their Presbyterian Brethren , and of that great familiarity they have with Christ , and what transcendent knowledge they have received from the mind and bosome of the Father , it will not be amisse here to recite some passages of that seraphicall Doctors Sermons , he preacheth in the Army . I will take them out of the booke called the Vindication of certain Citizens , where page 9. they set downe certaine points of doctrine that Saint Dell taught in the Army in their hearing , viz. 1. That there are no more of a Church of God in a Kingdome , then there be such as have the Spirit of God in that Kingdome . 2. Neither Old nor New Testament doe hold forth a whole nation to be a Church . 3. Whatsoever a State , an Assembly , or Councell shall say , ought not to bind the Saints , further then the judgement of those Saints shall leade them . 4. The Saints are those that are now stiled Anabaptists , Familists , Antinomians , Independents , Sectaries , and the like . 5. The power is in you the people , keepe it , part not with it . 6. The first party that arose against you , namely the prophane ones of the Land , are already fallen under you ; and now there is an other party , Formalists and carnall Gospellers rising up against you ; but I am confident they shall all fall under you . 7. They are willing to become subjects , to make the Saints slaves , nay , they are all willing to become slaves themselves , that they may tread upon the necks of the Saints . These points of sublimated doctrine I find set forth publickly , and published by authority , as delivered by Saint Dell in one of his sermons at the Army , which I had not put in to this my Epistle to the Reader , had I not some dayes after the publication of them inquired whether Saint Dell had answered to this accusation against him , and understanding that he had replyed nothing to it ( which he might have done in two houres , if he had beene innocent and not guilty ) I tooke it pro confesso , knowing that the Presses are open for all mens just Apologies and defence , especially when I find them open to all wicked and impious Pamphlets , and this as not all that made me beleeve the charge is true against him , but because I have heard , and that from men of reputation , and worthy of beliefe , that it is ordinary with him and his complices to preach such doctrines as these are , publickly and privately , and to maintaine them wheresoever he comes ; all the which I shall ever be able God assisting me to prove he never had nor received from the mind and bosome of God the Father , nor from Jesus Christ , though he boasts much of the Familiarity he hath with Jesus Christ . If this be the knowledge the Sectaries vaunt so much of , and if these be the things they pretend they have received from the mind and bosome of the Father , I must confesse in these their notions they out-strip the knowledge of the Saints of old , and of all the holy Prophets and Apostles , and of the old Puritans of England , who were ignorant of them all , which was a learned ignorance in them , knowing that God the Father taught a far different doctrine to his people , as I shewed a little before , and shall more fully declare in the insuing Discourse . But this I will againe and againe assert , that neither the old Puritans of England , nor our godly Presbyterians now , are inferiour to any of the Sectaries for an holy and conscionable outward walking in all manner of conversation , or in the knowledge of God or of Jesus Christ , or in any kind of knowledge that may truly be called learning or science , whatsoever the Independents and Sectaries may glory and boast of themselvs ; & I do farther assert that al the godly Presbyters in the church of England do preach Jesus Christ , faith & repentance , and free grace , and that in every Congregation upon all occasions more orthodoxly , solidly , sincerely and learnedly , with all practicall divinity , then ever any of the Sectaries did or can doe ; and therefore they do not know more of God then the Presbyterians doe , as that Homothumadon Brother pharisaically and falsely gloried , and all the Sectaries with him vaunt . So that I see no reason why wee may not here make use of the Apostle Saint Pauls words concerning this busines , who in the second of the Cor. 10. v. 7. 12. 18. Doe you looke on things after the outward appearance ( saith he ) ? if any man trusts to himselfe that hee is Christ's , let him of himselfe thinke this againe , that as he is Christ's , even so are wee Christ's . For we doe not make our selves of the number , or compare our selves with some that commend themselvs , but they measuring themselves by themselves , and comparing themselves amongst themselves are not wise ( or understand not ) for not he that commendeth himselfe is approved , but whom the Lord commendeth . So that it seemes by Saint Pauls words , not only in this Epistle but in others , that the false Apostles and Seducers of his time had some high esteeme of themselves , and of their own holinesse , knowledge and abilities above others , yea above the Apostles themselves , as the Independents and Sectaries of our times have of their great piety and sufficiencie above their brethren , as all their words , Pamphlets and Vindications daily witnesse , in which they slight all that oppose their novelties , and stile them vaine men , and such as neither know what to say , norhow to hold their peace , vilifying them all as the off-scouring , and things of nought , which practice of theirs when it was blamed in the false Apostles as sinfull , it cannot be prayse-worthy in the Sectaries now in our times , who walke in that way of unrighteousnesse those false Teachers then did , and contrary to that rule prescribed by God , which is to preferre others before themselves in honour , which way the old Puritans of England walked in , and not in the way of the false Apostles , and the Sectaries of our times ; for they kept the road way , and the royall way of righteousnesse , esteeming of their brethren better then of themselves . But the world was never without such a sort of men : for Solomon speaks of the like , There is a generation of men ( saith hee ) and how lofty are their eyes , and their eye-lids lifted up ? and of such creatures Saint Paul speaks , 2 Cor. 11 , ver . 22 which made him compare himselfe with them after this maner ; are they Hebrewes ? ( saith he ) so am I ; are they Israelites ? so am I ; are they the seed of Abraham ? so am I ; are they the Ministers of Christ ? I speake ( saith he ) as a foole , I am more , &c. Thus the holy Apostle laughs at these seducers and vaine boasters , and to make them more ashamed , he compares himselfe with them , not fearing to be counted a Jeerer and scorner of piety and religion , though hee made himselfe merry with them , whom he knew very well for all the shewes they made of being the Ministers of righteousnesse , that they were a company of Impostors , and therefore assimilates and likens them to the Devill ; for the which if he had lived in our times hee would have been termed a boysterous and froward spirited man , shamelesse , deserving the name of Cretensis , against whom there would have come out many vindications , telling him that it became not the gravity and wisdom of old age , and an old professor of Religion to charge , and that publickly , his brethren of unworthy double dealing , and unfaithfulnesse , though they were all guilty of those crimes . And therefore I see no reason why any godly conscientious man should now fear to use the same method with the deceivers and seducers of these our times , that Paul did with those in his dayes , and to laugh at them ; for it would be an abuse of gravity to spend it upon them who continually glorie of their parts , knowledge and sanctity , as the seducers did in Pauls time , as by the Apostles expressions through all his Epistles is manifest , seeing it is well known that the Independents and Sectaries of our times in their words and very prayers , and in all their vindications & Pamphlets confesse , that they separate from us as an unholy people , & that they know more of God then the Presbyterians , and that all their brethren are the only protious and holy people , and the godly party , the Saints ; and for their Ministers and Pastors they account them the only Preachers of Iesus Christ and of free grace , the most illuminated and eminent Saints and servants of Christ , and the most excellent Lights , all which their expressions move mee without feare of being counted a jeerer and scorner of piety and religion ( which from my soule I reverence and honour in all in whom I truly see and discerne those graces ) to make use of the Apostles example , and to laugh at their grolleries , and imitate him in comparing the Presbyterians with the Independents and Sectaries , which I am confident I may doe without any just offence , and therefore with Saint Paul I say unto all the Sectaries and Independents , whether people or Ministers , doe any of them looke on things after the outward appearance ? if they trust to themselves that they are in Christ , let them also thinke this againe , that as they are in Christ , even so are the Presbyterians Christ's ; are they beleevers ? so are the Presbyterians ; are they Israelites ? the people that wrestle with God day and night by prayers and supplications , and by groanes of the spirit , and teares prevaile with God ? so doe the Presbyterians ; are they the seed of Abraham ? the children of the faithfull , and doe they walke in Abrahams steps ? so are the Presbyterians as well the children of the faithfull as they , and walke as carefully , conscienciously , and unblamably in all manner of conversation before God and towards all men ; and therefore in nothing inferiour to them , if the Sectaries and Independents be really and indeed such as they pretend to be ; are the Independent Predicants and Pastors , Ministers of Christ ? I may truly say the Presbyterian Ministers are more , as having had the honour of the conversion of them all , the seale of true Ministers , if they were ever truly converted , and of many hundred thousands besides , and they are more orthodox Ministers ; yea , such as stood to their Ministry faithfully , and indured the heate and brunt of the day , when all the Ministers of the Sectaries for the most part either ran away , or hid their heads , or most basely temporized , as the whole Kingdome knows . So that whatsoever they can speake of themselves , in respect either of knowledge , graces , or priviledges , or in regard of gifts or indowments , the Presbyterians with far greater reason , and with farre better right , and without any vaine gloriation ( giving the praise of all they have unto God ) may challenge unto themselves , and may truly ever say , doe the Independents and Sectaries hope to bee saved ? The Presbyterians beleeve , that through the grace of our Lord Iesus Christ , they also shall be saved , Act. 15. 15. God having put no difference betweene them and his chosen people the Iewes , purifying their hearts by faith , verse 9. So that I say , whatsoever the Independents and Sectaries can vainly glory in , or boast , of the Presbyterians can truly in all humility , and with farre better reason speake of themselvs , yea and truly apply it unto themselves ; so that there is no just ground why all the Sectaries should thus daily brag of their gifts and graces , and of the singularity of their parts , and priviledges , and of their familiarity with Jesus Christ , and of their holinesse and piety , appropriating all those prerogatives to themselves , and excluding all their Presbyterian brethren from partaking in them , making them all no sharers in them , proclaming them all the enemies of Jesus Christ , and the sonnes of Belial . I say and assert , that I can see no reason why they should thus make impropriations of all the priviledges and immunities of the true Saints unto themselves , and confine all the graces of God to their owne party , and rob all their brethren of all their Christian excellencies , as they in the Army spoyle and rob all the Presbyterian souldiers of their due honour and prayses in all those glorious victories God had crowned that whole Army with , and ascribing all the glory and honour of them all to themselves , which they call the godly party . I say , I cansee no good reason of all these their practices ; for thus did not the Saints of old , thus did not the old Puritans of England assume to themselves to be the only people of God , preferring themselves before their brethren upon all occasions ; they walked all of them in the way of righteousnesse that God had appointed them to walk in , which was , to give every one their due , and to love as brethren , Rom. 12 , which was not to separate from the Assemblies of their brethren , counting themselves more holy then they , for the which they have neither precept nor allowable president in all Gods holy Word ; and therefore I may truly conclude of them they are not in this their practice the old Puritans of ENGLAND overgrown , exceeding them in vertue or in the way of righteousnesse they went in , though they come to us in gray heads , and appear unto us in most glorious gravity and in the beauty of old men . For in all these proceedings that I have now named , and in many more that I could enumerate , they are not in the way of righteousnesse , and in the paths of the Saints of old , and in the way of the old Puritans of ENGLAND and like them , but they may be truly compared , whatsoever they glory of themselves , to the enemies of the true Saints , I mean the Seducers in all ages , and with the Jesuites and all Popelins , whose actions and examples they better know how to imitate , then the actions and lives of the Saints of old , and the old Puritant of ENGLAND , for they tread rather in the steps of the Jesuites , as the following particulars and practices of all those juglers and impostors will manifest . For first , as the Jesuites and Papists separate from all our Assemblies counting themselves the onely Catholicks , and all our Congregations Hereticall and all us Heretiques . Even so do the Sectaries deal with us , they separate from our Churches as prophane societies , esteeming themselves the onely Saints , and their new Congregations the only Churches in which Christ is set up as King upon his Throne . And as the Jesuites and Papists magnifie themselves and their Masters for the onely seraphicall Doctors , and in all their writings boast of their eminent learning , and slight and contemn all the Protestant writers as nothing ; so do the Independents and Sectaries highly magnifie themselves , and esteem of all the Presbyterians as the off-scouring of the earth , making them , the sillyest creatures of the world in comparison of themselves , as in all their Vindications and forthy Pamphle s dayly appeareth ; yea , they write against them with more then an episcopall pride ; So that in all these their dealings they are l●ke the Jesuites and Papists . Again , as the Jesuites and Priests amongst the Papists make all the Protestant Ministers with the Presbyterian government odious and hatefull to the people , even so do all the Independents and Sectaries incense the people against all our godly Ministers and Presbyters , and the Presbyterian Government , falsly perswading them , that children killed , Exod. 1. ver . 16. 22. that he might weaken the people of God , so the Independents and Sectaries labour to deale with us , for if amongst the Presbyterians any masculine spirits come forth with Christian manly courage to discover the evill of their wayes , having piety , wisdome , l●arning , abilities , gifts , and parts wherewith they are able to oppose their errors , these they indeavour to have supprest and to kill in their good names ( which is better then life ) ; and for the accomplishing of this they have their agents besides their scurrilous & reviling pamphlets ) to ride from City to Country , and to go from house to and to cast all the males ( that knowingly and conscienciously appear of a contrary judgement unto them ) into the deep rivers of Calumnies , laying on their backs such loads of fals defamations as may for ever drown them in their credits and reputations in the torrents of this troublesome world , and by this their Egyptian policy they suppose in a short time to weaken the Presbyterians , making them by their reproaches unfit for any imployment in Church and State , as if they were dead men , by which means they bring in their own party , and so think to increase and strengthen themselves ; but those their diabolicall practices with all their Agents God will in his due time fully discover and certainly destroy and down them all in the sea of his indignation , they being all contrary unto his holy Word and royall Commands ; and therefore although they come to us in their gray heads , yet they are not in the way of righteousnesse , nor in the way of the old Puritans of ENGLAND . And t●uly if we look into the whole proceedings of the Independents and Sectaries of our times , we shall find them most agreeable to all the practices both of the Jesuites and Aegyptians and the Pharisees of old , those cruell enemies of God and his people and dear servants ; for the Pharisees would ever oppose Christ and interrupt him in his Ministery ; and their weapons they deal with are all carnall , as those I have now mentioned , and that weapon my brother Burton cometh out against me with , viz , his Phocions hatchet , which I cannot but speak something of before I conclude this my Epistle to the Reader . In the seventh Page of his book he hath these words . You bring ( saith he ) the Scripture for you ; Come on brother , let you and me try it by the dint of this Sword. And truly , I shall by the helpe of my God make no long work of it . You spend about eleven sheets , wherein you have woven sundry long threaden arguments , to measure out your Dependent Presbytery , as holding paralell with the line of Scripture . Now you m●nst pardon me ( saith he ) if I shall assay , according to an old Proverb , with one stroke of Phocions hatchet , to cut in two the long thred of your Alcibiadian fluent and luxuriant Rhetorications . Thus he . Here my brother Burton seems to desire that he and I may try out the truth of what I have written by the dint of the sword of the Scripture : and I say as David did in another sense , 1 Sam. 21. 9. ) There is none like that ; but he immediately forsakes that weapon and betakes himselfe to Phocions hatchet , and that is his Pole-ax . Truly I exceedingly pity him , who strives to maintain a way that brings him into such a straight that he cannot cut in two the arguments brought against him without a hatchet : whereas the Sword of the holy Scripture is sharp enough to cut in two with one stroke any erroneous arguments : For the Word of God is quick and powerfull , and sharper then any two-edged sword , piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit , and of the joynts and marrow , and is a discoverer of the thoughts and intents of the heart , Heb. 4. 12. But he knowing very well , that with the sword of the spirit ( which is the Word of God Gal. 6. 17. ) though it be a two-edged sword , &c. that he could never cut in two with that weapon my arguments , the truth and strength of them being drawn out of the Word of God upon which I have grounded all my assertions , which is a sure unmoveable and impregnable foundation ; therefore laying aside the sword of the Scripture , he vapours with an unknown hatchet ( a desperate carnall weapon ) and to please himself he assays to chop , hack and mangle my arguments , which he is never able to cut in two with all his strength and strokes . Surely none but a bad cause , and an unwarrantable way had need to make use of such a weapon . Now for the Presbyterians , as their way is warrantable being grounded on the holy Scripture , the good Word of God , the practice of the Apostles , and all the Churches constituted by them ; so the weapons of their warfare are not carnall , but mighty through God , to the pulling down of strong holds , 2 Cor. 10. 4. And for my part , I am resolved never to use any other but that heavenly weapon ( the sharp sword of the spirit ) for the hewing and pulling down of all the strong holds of the Independents and Sectaries , and for the dividing and cutting in two all their erroneous opinions , and by the help of my God and through the power of his might and by his assisting grace I shall never doubt , but by the dint of that sword ever be able to try it out with my brother Burton and all those of his fraternity , and to oppose any adversaries of the truth , and to make no long work of it , and alwayes to be sufficiently armed to maintain it and all the wayes of God which I have formerly suffered for , and still continue to hold forth and persevere to walk in . Now before I conclude , I cannot but speak something upon this occasion concerning Phocion whom my brother Burton makes mention of , that I may informe the Reader a little of the truth of that story , and to shew that he is mistaken concerning that Proverbiall speech ; but how fitly it belongs unto my brother Burton the sequell of the discourse will declare . Now he represents this Phocion to the world as if he had bin such another creatures as Hercules was , and that as he had his club by which he did many pretty feals , so he speaks of Phocion as if he had had his hatchet likewise . But Erasmus a man better skill'd in all Histories and in the Annals of the times , then my brother Burton or any of his way , who are for the most part strangers and enemies to all good litterature , out of Demosthenes setting down the truth of that story , describes Phocion to have been some Sectary in Philosophie , but yet such a triviall and worthlesse one , that Demosthenes speaking of him , saith , That Phocions Arguments were so far from having any strength or validity in them to perswade any man to imbrace his doctrine and opinion , that by the weaknesse of them and the contradicting of himselfe and the fond handling of the controversie , he affirmeth , that Phocion was his own executioner , and the only hatchet of his own Arguments , and who opposed , yea overthrew his own principles : Phocion ( saith Demosthenes ) is his own hatchet to destroy and cut in sunder his own Arguments . The words of Erasmus relating that story are these , In adagiis Erasmi printed Hanoviae M. D. C. XVII . fol. 485. Demosthenes ( saith he ) Phocionem appellare solet suorum Argumentorum securim . Thus Erasmus expresseth him self touching that businesse . And this is the true story concerning that matter in Demosthenes , who makes Phocion the hatchet and destroyer of his own Arguments . Now my brother Burton speaks of Phocion , as if indeed he had been armed with such a weapon to incounter his enemies withall , which was nothing so . But the story may truly be verified in my brother Burton , who is indeed like Phocion and is his own executioner and the very hatchet of his own arguments , that really divides the head and heart of all his own and of all the Independents doctrine ; so that I may truly say of him , that he hath not onely sorely and desperately wounded his own cause , but absolutely murthered and taken away the life of Independency ; Yea , whiles with this hatchet he came out against me to cut in two the long thred ( as he speaks ) of my Alcibiadian fluent and luxuriant Rhetorications , and to wound me soul and body , he hath wounded himselfe and all his brethren under the fifth ribb ; and that when he seemed in love to take them all by their great white basket-hilted beards to kisse them ; & that which I now say of him , I am confident that all those that shall vouchsafe to read the insuing discourse without prejudice , and see what I have answered to him and all those of his society , will say . It is usuall with all the Independents to say of any Presbyterians that write against their wicked practices and novelties , although they do it with most singular reason , wisdome , and moderation , and with all evidence of demonstration , that by their writing against their wayes they not only wronged themselves and the Presbyterian cause , and that very much , but that they have been a great occasion of increasing Independents and advancing their party , when notwithstanding it is well known to the judicious and learned that they have given the Sectaries a fatall blow by discovering the vanities and errors of their wayes to all men . But what the Independents and Sectaries falsly vaunt in this point , ( as they do of their graces and vertues ) may truly be said of Master Knollys , I. S. and my brother Burton , that if ever any men have wronged their cause , and advanced their adverse party , they have done it ; as I am confident all they will say that shall deliberately read the following discourse ; for there they shall see how they not only upon all occasions contradict themselves , and through their ignorance and temerity overthrow their own principles , and are enemies to their own cause ; but how they like the Midianites destroy one another with their own swords , and at that time when they thinke mortally to wound their adversaries and utterly to vanquish them and to obtaine the victory . All that I have more in this place to add , is this , That it concerns all men seriously to look about them : and as they will not be deterred by any art of perswasion when either their lands or estates are questioned from searching into their evidences and the last wills and testaments of their fathers , Parents , and friends that gave them their inheritances , so they ought not by any perswasions of men to be disswaded now to search the good will and testament of their heavenly father and all the evidences of holy Writ , and to see what all their adversaries can pretend against their right & just title to them . Let them ever make those living Oracles Act. 7. their Counsellors , they will advise them for their present good and shew them the right way to their eternall & everlasting Patrimony the kingdome of glory . Now that they may be all made more studious and diligent in the scrutiny of those heavenly records when as so many Sectaries and Independents lay false claim to their caelestial inheritance and pretend that the Presbyterians have no just title and claim to the way that leads thereto , shall ever be the prayer of him who from his soul wishes that all men may grow in grace , and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus : to him be glory both now and for ever , 2 Pet. 3. 17. John Bastwick . To all the Homothumadon Jndependents , assembled , and not assembled , with all the Sectaries and Straglers under their severall commands , and to all the Burtonians , Valere & sapere . Gentlemen , A Godly conscientious Christian not long since being in company with one of the chiefest of your society , and bewailing unto him the sad condition of the times , in regard of the many dangerous opinions and blasphemous heresies that have within these few yeares sprung up since your New Lights appeared on our Horizon to the destroying of the soules of many , yea , tending to the ruine of Church and State , and to the bringing downe of the judgements of God upon the whole nation , if not timely prevented , he demanded of him , what he thought now was the fittest course to be taken for the hindring of the over-spreading of them , seeing men generally began to leave the publicke Assemblies , and to decline those wayes God hath appointed in his holy Word , ( viz. the preaching of the everlasting Gospel by his faithfull and orthodox Ministers ) for the saving of their soules , and for the right information of their judgements , and the rectifying of their manners ; to whom that Gentleman of your party replyed , that no other meanes ought or could lawfully be used but sweating them with Arguments . Whereupon , I being very desirous of all mens saving healths , but especially of yours , in regard of the particular acquaintance I have formerly had with some of you , and in regard also I have beene often accused of great ingratitude towards you all ( though I may truly assert ▪ that not any one of you , did ever shew me the least courtesie under that notion you now shew your love to any ; for whiles yee were my familiars yee went on in that way I now walke in ; and if yee then shewed me any humanity , yee ought not now to upbraid me with it ; for I am not changed but yee ) I say in consideration of these things , and in regard likewise , I find by many symptomes the minds of many of you are exceedingly exulcerated and affected with that malady in morality yee make so loathsome in others , yee being surcharged with superfluity of choler and malice , and not able to containe your selves , but breake forth into distemper of words , and poure it out in unsavoury language , so that yee may well be left to a miserere mei : ( I pray excuse me that I use your owne dialect ) in all these regards I say , but chiefly for your soules good , and that all the world may see how gratefull a man I am to you for any former courtesies under whatsoever notion you shewed them mee ; I being a Phisician , and very well acquainted with all your distempers , and being very willing also to yeeld my best helpe for the restoring of any of you to your former sanity and soundnesse of mind offer my selfe to be your Phisician in ordinary , and to follow the method prescribed by one of your brethren ( who it seemsknows the best way of curing your severall maladies ) & I shall upon all occasions , as I have at this time , sweat you with Arguments , but chiefly a● the times appointed ; and because it shall not be said I doe it out of a desire of gaine and for lucre sake , that I may the better testifie my gratitude to you all , I will according to my promise give you my counsell gratis , only you must pay my Apothecary for the Phisick , who shall use you very reasonably . Now I have made good provision of it , because some of your way not many weeks since , being in Westminster-Hall speaking to a Reverend Presbyterian Minister in a vapouring manner , said , that the Independents were exceedingly beholding to me and Reverend Mr. Edwards , affirming , that we bred more Indpendents then any two of the Kingdom besides ; and this I beleeve to be true , not only because I know the honesty of the man , but because I find it printed by one of your brethren , that Bishop Wren was not more mischievous to the Prelacy , then Master Edwards hath beene to the Presbytery , and because Master Weld a wonderfull learned man writ unto me not long since , wondring who hired me to make so many Independents , ( whose worthy Epistles may happily within these few weeks see the light ) and in this regard I doe perswade my selfe that those Independents did use such words as these to that Minister in Westminster-Hall . The same Minister also related unto me moreover that they said that they understood that I was preparing some physicke for them , which they doubted not but would be very operative for the breeding and increasing of Independents , and for the strengthning of more , and therefore they said they were resolved as soone as ever it was made ready for use , they would bestow an hundred pounds upon that and Master Edward's Bookes , for to send through the countrey for the breeding of Independents , and contented not themselves barely to speake the words , but bound themselves by a solemne protestation , that they would doe it ; and therefore that I●might farther make them beholding to me , which is also some requitall for all your former courtesies , I have provided physick in a very great quantity , and challenge your promise ; for I presume that they were but the mouth of their brethren , there being one of your Sagamours in the company at that time , a man that cannot deny what was promised . Now if you be honest men indeed , and men of your word , I expect performance according to your promise ; I will see you shall have reasonable penny worths only I must tell you , that I will take order , that the physicke be faithfully distributed , and sent through the Kingdome into all parts according to your engagement for the breeding of Independents , that it be not embezeled ; I will undertake that it shall carefully be sent to whatsoever places you shall appoint ; therefore if yee be Saints indeed as yee pretend , stand to your word ; for I have good witnesse of it , and doe not you pretend excuses for the declining of the buying of my physick ; for then I will conclude you are but a company of Bragadochoes , neither would I have you as formerly you use , to disparage it , finding fault with it , & my method , & manner of dispensation , saying , that it is nauseous , and that in my rules and directions I am full of tautologies and extravagancies , and that it is poore stuffe procuring rather vomiting then sweating , and that their tender stomacks and conscences cannot digest such physicke , complayning moreover that it is very deare ; I would not have you now pretend any of these things , I say it is not for your honour , seeing you have passed your promise to buy it , and to send it through the countrey , for the breeding of Independents ; for you should have considered all these things before your engagements , which being passed you cannot now with honesty revoke . But as for the tautologies and often repetitions you so blame in my method , and so much speake of , you of all men ought to excuse them , you your selves so often using them , having little else in all your writings but tautologies , and vaine repetitions ; especially you ought not to blame them in me , when those of your partie have occasioned them by your frequent objecting the same things from severall mouths and pens ; for I had to deale with your whole Armie , and with three of your Generals at once , who had read without doubt what each other had writ against me , and therefore they picking and choosing through my booke what they thought they could best deale with , they might have set upon those parts of my Book that the others had said nothing against , but they making the same cavils that the others had done , they put mee upon severall answers . But were it so that they had none of them seene what each other had writ , yet they treading in the same steps , and answering after their manner to the severall Arguments they opposed , I was severally to reply to all their cavils , that are materially made to the severall Arguments , which I have faithfully done ; and for my part ▪ I thought it no burthen , being ever willing , yea resolved is often and as frequently as I find poyson laid by any destructive creature , to prescribe an Antitode to it in the same place ; and for farther answer to your meager and slender detractions , take notice , that I value not what you or any Adversaries can say concerning my tautologies , if handling the same thing often be thought a tautologie with you ; for this is my resolution , that wheresoever , and as often as I find an adversary hath a tongue to speake against the truth , or a pen to write against it , were it an hundred times in the same place , or in the same page , I will ( God assisting me ) answer them upon the place I find them , and that instant , I will never refer the Reader to what I have said before in any other place concerning that point ; for I for my part think it a kind of lazinesse to spare any paines in so weighty businesses and things of so high concernment as these are ; yea , I think there is but little zeale in that man that shall hear the truth , either often blasphemed or spake against , that will not as often stand up in defence of it , and contend for it ( according to command , Iud. 3. ) to his uttermost ability , yea it would be a means to perswade unstable men , that there were some strength in the Arguments of the enemies , or that they are more diligent to sow errors & tares , then I should be diligent to root them out & oppose them , if I should not as often reply as they cavil , and object ; & therfore for my particular it never troubles me what any of youcan say to me about my tautologies , which are not vaine repetitions to any that love often to heare the same truth well confirmed ; for allthis will but witnesse and declare to all men , that I am a carefull man to uphold the truth , and to resist gain-sayers ; besides , any man may sooner reade a reply many times , then turne to an other place , where it was formerly spake of , and answered to ; withall , there will in a severall answer to the same objection in an other place be found some variety , both for argument and language , which many times begets other excellent notions , which more and more confirmes men in any truth . Besides , this hath ever beene Gods owne method , which they that are taught of him , Iohn 6. ought to imitate , often to repeate one and the same Law ; as what he taught his people in Exodus , he often reiterates in the same Booke , and not in that only , but in Leviticus and Numbers , and repeats the whole Law againe in Deuteronomy , and that often , to the end they might remember it , & the same may be saidof al the holy Prophets through the whole Bible , who often reiterate & repeat the same things that the people may not pretend ignorance ; and this I say is Gods own method , and therfore worthy of our imitation ; yea and Christ himself used this method in his preaching , and dictating unto his Apostles by his Holy Spirit , who writ foure Evangels of what he hath both done and suffered for us , often repeating the same thing ; yea , all the holy Apostles and pen men of holy Writ used the same method , as is to be seen through the Acts , & all their holy Epistles , repeating the same things according to their several occasions , as when either the same errors sprang up in other places , or began to increase where they were so wen , and started up ; yea , Paul professeth of himselfe , Phil. 3. verse 1. that to him it is not grievous , but for them safe , to write the same things . The same method did Saint Peter use , as yee may see in his second Epistle ; and therefore it is no error in me often to repeate the same things , and to inculcate and reinforce the same Arguments , especially if it be occasioned by your selves , that by this meanes the truth for which I contend may be the more confirmed , and errors may be the more confuted , and overthrown . But withall let mee say thus much unto you by the way , that although I am constrained through your vaine tautologies often to handle the same truths ; yet it is with such variety , and in so diverse a way , manner and stile , as it will not bee grievous or tedious to all those that shall reade it with honest hearts , where they will well perceive that what I have answered more briefly in one place I have more fully handled in an other ; that ( if it be possible ) I might give full satisfaction to all docible and ingenuous men that will be satisfyed , either with Scripture or reasons . Now if in this dispute there be any expressions that may displease any of you , you of all men may well excuse them , knowing how great your provocations of me have beene ; especially , if you consider that all this contention is for the defence of the truth of God , which yee all have sought to corrupt , and adulterate with your traditions ; in whose quarrell , and for the maintenance of whose honour it becomes every man to be more zealous , and fuller of animosity then for his owne ; and therefore if I take liberty to speake more freely in shewing the vanity , impiety and wickednesse of the Deceivers and Impostors of these times in which we live , it is but to use the same method the holy Prophets and blessed Apostles have used against the false teachers of their times , who have expressed themselves in language equivalent to whatsoever they shall find in any part of my Booke . Yea , you your selves if you but looke upon my Brother Burtons Vindication , or upon any of his Pamphlets , or indeed upon any of your own scriblers in maintenance of your owne vaine errors and novelties , or upon Iohn Goodwyn , your famous Cretensis , or the last Vindication that came out against Reverend Master Edwards , you shall find them as full of unsavoury expressions , as ever people writ against any men withall , writing also with such elated spirits , and with so course language , as is possible for any men to vent themselves withall , they ordinarily beginning and continuing their Pamphlets with pride , and ending them with cursing , as in that late Vindication appeareth , where the Author page the first , saith , I thought it might not be amisse ( speaking of learned Master Edwards ) to spend an houre or two upon this vaine man. Here wee find the height of pride , insolency and disdaine , and in the 30. page he hath these words concerning the same man. The Lord rebuke turbulent and violent spirits ; here he ends with cursing causelessely , whereas there is no more turbulent and violent spirits now upon the earth then this of that Author , and all those of your fraternity , as all their practices , and noysome , fruitlesse , and vilipending scriblings can witnesse , who daily write against their Christian Brethren for their zeale to the truth , with a greater spirit of pride , insolency and elation , and with more contempt and disdaine , and that out of selfe conceitednesse then ever the Prelates did , continually slighting , under-valuing and contemning those men they are not worthy for any merit or true learning to be compared with , or named the same day they are mentioned ; and therefore if I in Gods quarrell and cause be a little more earnest , and use a little more tartnesse ( which I shall ever wave in my owne ) it may with any good nature easily plead excuse . But before I conclude my Epistle , I shall desire you all to consider three passages , omitting many ; I shall here set before your eyes the one out of Master Knollys his Answer , the other out of I. S. his Flagellum , the third out of my Brother Burtons Vindiciae ; that you may take notice of the vanity and futility of these men , and how much they have wronged your cause before you reade the insuing Discourse . Master Knollys thus speaks , upon the Frontispice of his Booke : A moderate Answer unto Doctor Bastwicks Booke , wherein the manner how some Churches in this Citie were gathered , and upon what termes their Members were admitted , that so both the Doctor and the Reader may judge , how neere some ` Beleevers who walke together in the Fellow-ship of the Gospel , doe come in their practise to these Apostolicall rules , which are propounded by the Doctor , as Gods method in gathering Churches , and admitting Members . These are Master Knollys his own words , and in the nineteenth and twentieth page he more fully there testifies his good liking of that method for gathering of Churches that I out of the Word of God propounded , and would perswade the world that their Congregations were gathered after that method or manner , or came very nigh unto it ; by all which his expressions , and by that their practice he declares , that in his judgement I have writ nothing but what is agreeable to Gods Word . I appeale now therefore unto you all , whether this man deserves not condigne punishment , that will goe about , undertake and endeavour to confute that Booke which he in his judgement alloweth of , and according to which he pretendeth he practiseth , andall this for the deluding and misleading of unstable soules , to the trouble both of Church and State. I am most assured , that those that are rationall amongst you , and not blinded with passion , will say that Master Knollys is not only an unworthy trifler , but that hee goeth contrary unto his owne Principles , and ought deservedly to be severely punished for his thus wickedly mispending his pretious time and abusing the simple people : For if I have writ nothing concerning the gathering of Churches , but what he in his conscience beleeveth and practiseth ; then how unexcusable is that in this man that will speake against what his owne soule dictates unto him to be according to GODS holy Word ? By all which it is manifest , that he is not onely a vain jangler , but hath lost the day , and wronged that your cause , the defence of which , notwithstanding , he entred into the field to vindicate and maintain against all the Presbyterians . And that which I have said of him , may deservedly be spake of I. S. and my brother Burton . For I. S. in the 13. Page of his Flagelli , hath these words , If it were granted ( saith he ) that many Churches did aggregate and unite in the beginning , yet would not this example be bindingly presidential , &c. and seems there to prove it by arguments ; and my brother Burton in the 9. and 10. pages of his Pamphlet assenteth unto I. S. his doctrine , as you may see at large if you look into it , in which you shall find also , that he acknowledgeth there were many congregations of beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem , and at that time , when according to his own reckoning , there were but three thousand beleevers in that Church . His words are these , saying , that though they wanted a convenient place so spacious as wherein to break bread , or to receive the Lords Supper altogether , so as they were constrained to sever themselves into divers companies in severall private houses to communicate , &c. So that by the learning of all these your great Champions you will in the sequell of this discourse evidently perceive , that they have utterly overthrown your doctrine of Independency and of the Congregational way , and that whiles they all came out to maintain it : For Mr Knollys , as I said even now , he fights against the light of his own understanding , and opposeth that truth which he in his judgement alloweth of . And for I. S. and my brother Burton they have ignorantly murthered your cause : For all the contention hitherto , both in the Synod , between the reverend Presbyters there and the Homothumadon dissenting brethren , and between all the Independents and Presbyterians through the Kingdome , hath been concerning the Church of Jerusalem and the number of beleevers in that Church , which the dissenting brethren with all the Independents in England hold were never at first and last more then could all meet in one place or Congregation to partake in all acts of worship ; and they assert moreover that that Church ought to be a patern for all Churches to the end of the world in respect of its government ; and do peremptorily affirme , that the example of that Church is bindingly presidentiall to all succeeding ages for imitation , which is the opinion not only of the Homothumadon dissenting brethren but of all the Sectaries that I know , yea the orthodox Presbyterians do all beleeve , that the Church of Ierusalem the Mother-Church is to be a pattern of Government to all Churches in all succeeding ages to the end of the World. Now I. S. saith , that the example of the Church of Ierusalem is not bindingly presidential , wickedly comparing it to the confused chaos that indigested moles in the first creatiō , so that he makes the church of Ierusalem an imperfect patern . So that by his doctrine , it is left arbitrary for any Church or State to set up what kind of Church government they please . Now whether or no this opinion of his be not contrary to all divinity and the judgement of all orthodox Divines , yea to the very tenent of all the Independents , I leave it to the consideration of all those amongst you that can judge of things that differ : So that you may see that this Champion also of yours hath absolutely overthrown your own principles when he came out to maintain and defend your cause . My brother Burton also hath given a fatall blow to that cause he came out so desperately to maintain : For all the Independents through the world , that ever I heard of , with all the Homothumadon brethren in the Assembly , by all their arguments have hitherto laboured to evince , that there were no more beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem then could all meet in one place or Congregation to communicate in all ordinances , acknowledging , that if it could be proved there were more Assemblies and Congregations of beleevers in that Church , that then they would yeeld the cause ; and they spake according to reason . For if there were many Congregations of beleevers in Ierusalem , and all those made up but one Church , and were all under one Presbytery , as they must of necessity be if they made all but one entire Church , then the doctrine of the Congregationall way falleth to the ground or vanisheth : for if there were many and severall Congregations there that had not an absolute authority and jurisdiction Independent within themselvs respectively , but were subordinate and subject to another authority above them , then of necessity that tenent of the Congregationall way is but a meer chimera or whimsy of your own heads , as all the learnedst of your tribe do acknowledge . Now when my brother Burton hath not onely granted there were many Congregations of beleevers in that Church , but by arguments proved it ; he hath utterly , I say , lost the field before he entered into the combat , as will yet more perspicuously appear in the following discourse : but by that I have now said , you may see how unhappy you are in all these your Champions and Generals that give as great wounds unto your cause as any adversaries you have in the world now living ever gave . That which I have now to say in the first place to all your leaders and guides , is , earnestly to intreat them as they look for true comfort in life and death , and as they desire the peace of the Church , and quiet of this distracted State and Kingdome , they would now no longer withhold the truth from the people in unrighteousnesse , which hitherto they have done ; but that they would unfainedly bewaile the errors of their wayes ; and repent of their seducing and misleading of the poor people ; let it be enough that they have so highly provoked God and caused the enemies to blaspheme our Christian Religion . And in the second place I desire all you that have hitherto been misled and carryed about with every wind of their new doctrine , that now you would more seriously prove and examine all things ( according to the Apostles rule , 1 Thess . 5. 12. ) and hold fast that which is good . Lay not out your time and moneys for that which will profit you nothing , but whiles it is called to day , set your selves seriously upon the work of examining all those new doctrines that have been taught you : set before your eyes the example of the noble Bereans , search the Scriptures whether things be as they have taught you , and if you please diligently to read what I have writ out of a zeal of the glory of God , and out of love to your selves , and a true desire of your eternall felicity , If any of you that have erred from the truth shall be converted by it , let him know , that he that converteth the sinner from the error of his way , shall save a soul from death , and shall hide a multitude of sins , James 5. 19. 20. John Bastwick . THE ANTILOQVIE . SOLOMON the Wisest of men and one beloved of God , gives this counsell to all the sons and daughters of God , and to the universality of all man-kind , saying unto them all , Prov. 23. ver . 23. Buy the truth and sell it not , also wisdome , instruction and understanding . He counsells them all to prise truth with wisdome , instruction and understanding above all things , as the onely means of making men happy , not in this life alone , but eternally : for so Solomon that wise man asserteth Prov. 3. ver . 13 , 14 , 15 , 16 , 17 , 18. saying , Happy is the man that findeth wisdome , and the man that getteth understanding . For the merchandise of it is better then the merchandise of silver , and the gain thereof then fine gold . Shee is more precious then rubies : and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her . Length of dayes is in her right hand , and in her left hand riches and honour . Her wayes are wayes of pleasantnesse : and all her pathes are peace . She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her : and happy is every one that retaineth her . If all the Orators of the World had been gathered together 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they could not with so illustrious a brevity have set forth the excellency of wisdome and understanding , nor with more glorious encomiums and ellogies have decipher'd the amability of them for the making of them specious and lovely , and for the inviting of all men to the ready and willing imbracing of them : for if either life , profit , pleasure , honour , or any delectable content , or any thing indeed desirable in the world can invite any creature to be inamored with any object of love , all that can be said in way of the praise thereof is contained in this description of wisdome and understanding delivered by Solomon . And yet truth hath the preeminency before them all , the first place for dignity being given & assigned unto her , and by a speciall command from God himself who spake by his servant Solomon , all men are injoyned to buy the truth , and that upon any termes , and not to bartell it away , or sell it , or to part with it , though it might be with never so much worldly emolument unto them . Buy the truth , saith God , & sell it not , keep it for ever : For by the truth thou shalt perfectly attain unto liberty , which is the life of life , yea which is better then life , liberty being that the whole world contends for , every man not onely desiring it , but fighting for it . Now the truth will make every man free , so saith Christ , John 8. ver . 32. The truth shall make you free from all error , and from the fear of Hell and Death , and from the very terror of both : And lest any man should seriously doubt what truth is , as Pilate scornfully did , Christ himselfe hath taught us John 17. v. 17. saying , Thy Word is Truth , and that Truth that sanctifieth his people : For every thing is sanctified by the the Word and Prayer , 1 Tim. 4. v. 5. This precious good Word of God , and the faith once delivered unto the Saints , Jude 3. contained in it , is that that all men are exhorted earnestly to contend for : And therefore more especially in these our times every one ought vigorously to stand up and contend for it , yea upon any termes or at any rate to buy it , when it is become such a rarity as it is scarse to be met with , being almost lost in the thickets , meanders , and labyrinths of so many errors ; so that the faith once delivered unto the Saints is very rarely to be found amongst the sons of men through the involutions and intanglements of writhing and restlesse spirits , whose whole work and designe it is ( as by their dayly practices it doth appear ) either wholy to eclipse or darken it , or totally to take it away , that by this meanes Truth and Light being once removed , the deceivers and impostors may the better put off their corrupt and putrid wares and commodities , and the poor deluded people may the more facilly and readily be deluded , cheated , and consened , and those that are wayfaring men for the want of its direction may wander in the by-paths of darknesse to their own eternall perdition . And the verity is , too too many , by their needlesse , vain , and unnecessary janglings about the truth and the way have lost them both and are now turned Seekers to the dishonour of God and their eternall shame and misery too , if they speedily repent not . For God in the 30. of Deut. ver . 11. saith there : This commandement which I command thee this day , is not hidden from thee , neither is it far of ; it is not in heaven that thou shouldest say who shall go up for us to heaven , and bring it unto us , that we may hear it and do it . Neither is it beyond the sea , that thou shouldst say , who shall goe over the sea for us , and bring it unto us , that we may hear it and do it : But the Word is very nigh unto thee , in thy mouth and in thy heart that thou mayst do it . See ( saith the Lord ) I have set before thee this day life and good , and death and evill . Now if in the dayes of Moses the truth was so near unto them that the Lord says there unto his people , that he had set it before their eyes , yea that it was in their hearts ; so that they had then no need to run from land to sea , and from sea to land to finde it : how much more obvious is it now , may every rationall man conclude when it is so gloriously set forth , and that through the whole Scripture of the New Testament ? And how inexcusable will all such be found that complain the truth is not yet clear unto them ? So that it may be an astonishment to all men to hear any that have read the holy Word of God say that they are yet in the dark & the truth doth not appear unto them : And yet such men there are who declare unto the world and professe it , that they are expectants and seekers : and many have often said unto me when I have been in familiar discourse with them , That as yet the truth was not made out unto them concerning the Presbyterian way , and therefore they could neither communicate with our Assemblies nor yet joyn with those of the new gathered churches . Now that all those who have wandred and strayed from the old way , and those that are at a losse and seek it , may find it and the truth , which they have a command from God to buy and purchase , and that they may all clearly perceive that they are in the by-path of error that are still Scepticks and doubting about the way : I shall at this time endeavor to be their guide , nothing doubting but by the grace of God and his speciall assistance if they will bring docible hearts and willing minds to follow the thred of his Word , and be directed by that unerring line of the same , they may speedily be led and come into the right way , and find the truth and with it peace and comfort to their own souls in life and death . I will first therefore dissipate and scatter those mists that have been cast before their eyes , by which the truth hath been clouded , and remove all those stumbling blocks that have been put before them , and then I doubt not ( howsoever it be thought a difficult work , yea an unpossible thing ) but to make the truth evidently appear unto them , and bring them into the right way from which some have wandred and strayed and others yet doubt of ; And I hope so to clear up the light of the truth , that the way of it shall not only be plain to them , but to every man and woman that have not lost the eye-sight of their reason or have not sacrificed themselves to error and vanity . And therefore that the truth concerning the Presbyterian way may the more elucidately appear to every intelligible man , I will here briesly state the question which is fully handled in the following discourse , and shew What hath been the principall cause of putting so many out of the way , and keeping and deterring others from it , and withall I will set down the ground and rise of the Independent tenent , & shew upon what as a foundation they lay the whole Fabrick of this their new Babell ; which I hope to make evident to be nothing but a meer chimera and phansie in their own brain , and that there is not the least warrant for it in the whole book of God. And all that I now say , I am confident 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to discover to all those whom the god of this world hath not blinded their eyes that they should not see the clear sunshine of the Gospell of Truth . Those that call themselves by the name of Independents and have separated themselves from our Congregations and Assemblies , counting us such Saints as Job would not set with the doggs of his flocke , calling us the sons of Belial , proclaming us to be the enemies the Lord Iesus Christ and his Kingdome ( for this is their language concerning us all ) those I say pretend that they have both the Word of God and the example of the Primitive Churches , especially that of Jerusalem for the maintenance of their Independency and for these their unbrotherly proceedings , whose opinion and doctrine is this : That the Church of Ierusalem that Mother Church consisted of of no more beleevers at any time then did ordinarily meet altogether in one place and Congregation to partake in all acts of worship ; and they teach withall , that this Church consisting of no more , had an absolute soveraignty within it selfe Independent without reference to any other Church , and from the which there might be no appeal for the redresse of any conceived wrong ; and they moreover affirm that the constitution of this conceited forme of government , is the true Gospel forme of Church government , and is for ever to be a patern to all Churches in all succeeding ages to doe the same and to exercise the same authority within themselves severally that they imagine this Church did , though they consist but of twenty or thirty Members apeece , yea fewer . This is the opinion of all the Independents , saving my Brother Burton , who in this differeth from all his brethren , beleeving , yea acknowledging that there were many Assemblies of Beleevers in the Church at Ierusalem , by which he hath overthrowne their opinion , whiles notwithstanding hee labours with all his might to maintaine it , as will appeare in its due place ; whereas all the other Independents , ( as I said before ) confidently assert , that there were no more Beleevers in that Church , at first and last , then could all meet in one Congregation to communicate in all the Ordinances . Now the Presbyterians on the other side , and that upon very good grounds , as will in the sequell of this discourse appeare , hold and beleeve that there were many Congregations and Assemblies of Beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem , and that all those severall Congregations made but one Church within its pracincts , and were all under one Presbyterie ; and that the government of this Church consisting of many Congregations combined together under the government of a Colledge of Presbyters is a paterne of government to all Churches in succeeding ages to the ●nd of the world . And this I thought fit to speak concerning the first question or controversie betweene the Presbyterians and the Independents . The second is concerning the gathering of Churches and admitting of Members into Church fellow-ship & communion , which the Independents hold and teach must be upon these conditions . First that they that are to be admitted , and before they can be received into the Church , they must walke sometime with them . In New-England they make some walke seven yeeres before they can be received , and this is their first condition . Secondly , before their admission , they must make every one of them a particular and publicke confession of their faith . Thirdly , they must bring in the evidences of their conversion , declaring the time when , the place where , and the occasion how they were converted . Fourthly , they must all and every one of them enter into a particular explicite Covenant . Fifthly , they must come in and be admitted by the consent of the whole Church , Nemine contradicente ; so that the refusing of any of these hinders their admission , and the gathering of Churches after so fashion ( as the French men use to speake when they learn English ) is the onely way as they all affirme of setting up Christ as King upon his Throne , and this is the opinion and doctrine of all the Independents concerning the gathering of Churches , pretending withall that they have the Church of Jerusalem for this their paterne and plat-forme , which is nothing else but to abuse the Scripture , as will afterwards appeare . The Presbyterians on the contrary side hold and beleeve , that for the gathering of Churches , and for the making of any Members of any Church , and for the admitting of them into Church Followship and Communion , no other conditions are to be propounded to them by the Ministers for their reception into the society of the Church , or to be required at any peoples hands , but those that Christ the King of his Church ( whose voyce is only in Church matters to be listned unto and heard ) hath propounded , viz. Repentance , Faith and Baptisme . And this is the beliefe and opinion of the Presbyterians concerning the admission of Members , and gathering of Churches , affirming that the Independents have neither Precept nor President for all their new conditions in the whole Booke of God , and therefore that they ought to be rejected as their owne inventions , and as the vaine and wicked traditions of their owne braine , as will clearely in the following discourse be evidenced to all men . And this is briefly the state of the question and difference betweene us . Now before I set downe the ground , and seeming warrant they pretend for this their fond opinion of Independency , by which they have brought trouble and confusion upon this whole Church and Kingdome ; I thinke it fit I say before the handling of the whole busines to say something concerning the sorts of Independents I have to deale with , and against the which all my following Arguments doe militate ; and I find two sorts of Independents ; the first are those which for distinction sake I call Homothumadons ; the other Burtonians . Now the Homothumadon Independents , that at this day swarme through the whole Kingdome ( if their owne brags may be beleeved ) are the universality of all the Sectaries , who generally hold that , There were no more beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem , and in all other the primitive Churches within their respective Precincts , then could all ordinarily meet in one Congregation to partake in all Acts of worship ; and from thence out of this their imaginary opinion they forme all their severall Churches , calling their Assemblies the Churches of the Congregationall way , and to this their opinion they sticke and cleave immoveably . The Burtonian Independents , of which my Brother Burton is the Corypheus , and Antesignanus , and from whom they have received their doctrine , they hold and beleeve that there were many Congregations and Assemblies of beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem , but deny that those severall Congregations were Churches properly so called . This I say is the opinion of my Brother Burton , and his disciples . So that my first Brigade of Arguments and Forces that I have drawn out of Saint Iohn the Baptists , Christs and his blessed Apostles and seventy Disciples quarters , and that before Christs death , with all those I have taken out of the strong garrison of Ierusalem after Christs ascension , and have brought into the field to dispute this controversie and question they militate against the whole Army of the Homothumadon Sectaries , that under the command of Hanserdo Knollys and I. S. their Generalls indeavored to maintain and keep this ground : viz. That there were no more Beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem at first and last , then could and did ordinarily all meet together in one place or Congregation to partake in all acts of worship . The other companies that I have taken out of the Apostles quarters after Christs death , resurrection , and ascension militate against all the Burtonian Independents , in the head of which Army he himselfe comes out into the field as their Generall maintaining , that those severall Assemblies in the Church of Ierusalem were not Churches properly so called : And he Goliah-like appears armed with his sword and Phocions hatchet which is his pol-ax , bidding defiance to the whole host of Presbyterians , presuming to make good this ground against them all : viz. That those severall Assemblies of Beleevers in the Church at Ierusalem were not Churches properly so called , challenging me by name , saying Page 7. Come on Brother , let you and I try it out by the dint of this swo●d : adding moreover these words , and truly I shall by the helpe of my Godmake no long worke of it . I shall ( saith he ) assay with one stroke of Phocions Hatchet , to cut in two , the long thread of your Alcibiadian fluent and luxuriant Rhetorications . Thus valiant old Harry tryumphs before the victory , and even conjures it out . And in this dispute betweene my Forces and all the Independent Army after a few skirmishes , they shall see not only a private Duell fought betweene Generall Burton and my selfe , but the fall of that their Champion with their totall rout , and see their whole Army to fly and leave the field , and that most cowardly , though they were three to one ; howsoever their scattered Forces now and then make some false alarums , and speake bigge words , what reserves they yet have , and what great things they will doe , and how they will rally againe and come upon me , and breake through and through to the totall routing of all my Forces . They that are acquainted with the feats of Armes , and expert souldiers in this Militia , will well perceive that it is but selfe confidence in them all , and that all their swelling words will tend to their owne dishonour . I have three Generals to encounter with in the Independent Army , two under the name of all the Homothumadons , Hanserdo Knollys , and I. S. and Henry Burton in the name of all those of his party , besides some whibling reserves . Now as I have shewed you the controversie betweene the two parties , and the cause of this dispute , and set downe the occasion of bringing all these Armies into the field with the words of their challenge , and declared also the two sorts of enemies I have to deale with ; I will according to my promise , ad aram veritatis , briefly lay downe the title by which they all pretend a right to Independency , and shew the ground and foundation of the congregationall way , for the which they doe all of them now as pro aris & focis dimicare against their Christian Brethren , whom they ordinary stile Presbytyrants . But by the way I must say thus much , that before there was any breaking out to open Hostility all things in the beginning were carried in an amicable and lovely way , and the controversie was disputed con and pro in a legall manner , every one bringing in their evidences for their way and cause , and that in for●●onscienti● before Judges of the spirituall Law , where all the Advocates for the Independent cause were fully heard speake and plead for themselves , and for their party , whatsoever they now pretend to the contrary , and they had all of them liberty granted unto them freely to bring in their witnesses , which were fully likewise heard . Now they had but one witnesse to speake of that made for their cause , and he being found doubtfull in his expressions , and the truth also of his testimony being fully examined it was abundantly made appeare by the Advocates of the contrary party , that should his Affidavit be allowed of as cleare in every particular and punctilio of it , as they would have it , yet it would not be a sufficient witnesse to prove any just title they had to their Independency , nay though they had many such ; whereupon the Court could neither in iustice or equity admit of that witnesse his testimony ; and all those that have any understanding in causes of this nature , when they shall heare the debate fully on both sides , will I am most confident conclude , that should the Judges have allowed of their witnesses testimony , and so have granted the Independents their cause , that they had beene unrighteous Judges , and there had beene then just cause of appeale to some higher Court and Tribunall ; but the Judges in conscience having given sentence according to Law and justice against the Independent party , and they notwithstanding still challenging a right and title to Independency , although I say it was made apparently evident to all men , that they could not justly challenge or claime any right thereunto by the Charter of the great King of his Church , they still persisting in their obstinacy and groundlesse challenge , and being resolved that they would be either soli aut nulli , would admit of no faire accommodation , as can sufficiently be proved by a cloud of witnesse , brake out into open Hostility , and war against their brethren , ( and all this contrary unto Covenant and Agreement , as is briefly set downe in the Schismaticke sifted , set forth by Mr. John Vicar● ) and let fly their arrowes and quils at us , and with the poyson and venome of them wounded and slew not a few , invading our Frontiers and Territories , beating up our quarters , plundering and spoyling of us of our best and fattest sheepe and lambs , making ever and anon false alarums upon us , and upon every occasion sending us challenges to the terrifying of many , in so much as they forced some to run into the rivers and Jordans round about starke naked over head and eares , like mad men , aud that in the middest of winter , to the killing and murthering of certaine of them ; yea , they began to rob us of our wives , of our children , and of our servants , and indeed of our very substance : so that the Presbyterians were constrained in their owne defence to come out to meet them for the preserving of themselves , and their soules and bodies , both which would be destroyed , and that speedily , if these Rovers might goe on without controule and resistance , and yet in all this combat the Presbyterians hitherto have used no other weapon but the sword of the spirit , which is the word of God. But before I come to the main battel , I shall here set down the ground and warrant , by which they challenge a title and right to Independency , and withall I will set downe the manner of their pleading before they came to Hostility , with the names of some of their chiefe Advocates and Patrons , who lived sometimes in the Low-countries amongst the Countrey Courtiers there , where they became excellent Proficients in their art , and where they learned this Lesson perfectly well , viz. how to spread their bread with the Independents butter , which is the chiefest part of their skill and learning , which made their tongues in all their pleadings run very glib ; and these being all very well feed , pleaded their cause in manner and forme , as followeth . The Court being set , the chiefe Judge or Prolocutor , after the hearing of the debate and cause desired the Advocates for farther satisfaction , and for farrher proofe of the soundnesse of their plea , to bring in their witnesses and evidences , with their reasons out of the holy Scripture the great Charter of heaven , by which they would prove their title and right to the Church of Jerusalem , and by which they laboured to evince , there were no more Beleevers in that Church then could all meet in any one place or congregation , to partake in all the Ordinances , and that this Church consisting of no more then one Congregation was independent , promising , and that faithfully withall the other Judges , that if they could by sufficient evidence , witnesses and testimonies out of the holy Word of God , the Charter of the great King , make it appeare , that the controversie then should speedily be decided betweene them , and that they would yeeld the Cause , then the which nothing could be spake more honestly . Wherupon first Thomas Goodwin a sturdy Advocate produces for witnesse the first v. of the 2. chapter of the Acts in these words , when the day of Pentecost was fully come , they were al ( saith he ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with one accord in one place , Ergo , saith he ▪ the Church of Jerusalem consisted of no more Beleevers then could all meet in one place . Thus did hee plead and evidence . Now before I come to tell how the other Advocates argued their cause , I will set downe the Greeke words in Roman characters , that the most unlearned may reade them , and I will afterwards give the true and genuine interpretation , and sense of them , and shew how both these Advocates , and all the Independents and Sectaries are mistaken in that witnesse and testimony which indeed is the onely evidence they build their whole new Babel upon , and shew withall how they with violence force that witnesse to speake otherwise then hee meaneth , and that the words taken according to the originall , and according to all solid reason bring in no such evidence , nor carry no such sense or meaning as they put upon them ; for the words in the originall make not so much as mention of a place , howsoever it crept in , in our Translation . All this by Gods assistance I undertake to make good , and to evince this also , that they lay that foundation of their new Fabrick onely in the ayre or chimera of their owne braine . But for the words in Roman characters , they are Homothumadon epi tò autò . And now I will relate how Philip Nye a very busie Advocate pleaded the cause of Independency , and what his testimony was , who being desired by the Prolocutor to bring in his witnesse out of the holy word of God , for the proving of their assertion , hee flyes to the same place of Scripture , saying , they were all with one accord 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Ergo , saith he , there were no more Beleevers in the Church of Jerusalem then could all meet in one place . Then after him comes in Ieremy Burroughs , a stout Advocate , who being demanded to bring in his witnesses for the making of Affidavit to what they had pleaded , hee also betakes himselfe to the same text of Scripture , and with a great outice saith , and they were all 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Ergo , there were no more Beleevers in the Church of Jerusalem then could all meet in one place . Then comes in Sydrack Sympson , a brave burly and well spread Advocate , who being by the Prolocutor requested to bring in his witnesse produces the very same text of Scripture alleaged before , crying out pleno ore & pingui ore voce , that they were altogether 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Ergo , there were no more Beleevers in Jerusalem then could all meet in one place and congregation . I will not mention the other Advocates , for they were all at their Homothumadon , and had nothing else to the purpose . And thus did these brave Pleaders all and every one of them argue their cause , giving in their reason also into the Court for the corroborating of their witnesse , saying , that the Holy Ghost had from first to last as on purpose shewed this , as if his scope had beene before , to prevent and preclude all reasonings to the contrary . Thus they : This place of Scripture with this their reason to speake the truth , is all the ground , and warrant for substance , that all those restlesse spirited Rabbies have for this great warre and contention betweene us , and for the proving of their doctrine of Independency , and that their tenent of the congregationall way , by which they have brought this distraction and confusion into the whole Church and State , to the seducing and misleading of many thousand poore soules , to the utter ruining of many of them , and for the setting of the three Kingdomes on fire , which with all their teares , if ever the Lord should give them repentance not to bee repented of they could never quench : and for the better deceiving of the people they have so accustomed their mouths to Homothumadon epi to auto , that very Sagomour Will that has no more Greeke in him then a Horse , upon every occasion comes out with his Homothumadon epi to auto , and all of them in this great and weighty busines which concernes not onely the peace of the Land , but is of everlasting concernment to us all , they continually triffle and abuse the holy Scripture , dealing with us as Cats usually doe one with an other , who when they have spent all their strength with fighting , and when they can neither scratch nor bite any longer , then they spit one at another , and make ugly faces ; even so doe these men with us , when they have tormented themselves , & spent their Forces in wrangling , having never an Argument left to maintain their groundlesse , wicked and dividing opinion , then they stand staring on us , & as a last refuge come out with their homothumadon epi to auto and thus spit a little Greeke in our faces which the deluded people not understanding , beleeve that it is an absolute conquest gotten on the Independents side . Now in regard the whole strength of their cause , ye● , of their whole Army lies here and depends upon this Fort , I meane these words of the heavenly Charter , I will take the more paines for finding out of the true meaning of them , that so I may the better discover unto the world the wickednesse and vanity ( for it is no better ) of all these Homothumadon imposters ; and so much the more willing I am to make some stay in explayning the mind and true sense of the same , because they are as it were the Key and inlet for the opening , and the better making way for the understanding of the whole Dispute ; so that every man that is but of ordinary capacity , by the very light of his naturall reason may from the unfolding of them be sufficiently able to discerne the juglings of these ungodly men . But first I shall give you in the answer of those reverend Iudges sitting in the Court , I meane the reverend Assembly , where this cause was fully heard and debated , where the Homothumadons had liberty fully to speak for themselvs , & to bring in whatsoever made for their cause , howsoever they have falsely given out to the contrary Now for answer to their reason above mentioned , the Reverend Assembly replyed , that they inclined to beleeve that the Holy Ghost intended rather to shew the early accomplishment of the promise , Ier. 32. 39. of giving one heart , and one way by his so frequent mentioning Homothumadon & epi to auto as adjuncts of the first Christian Church meetings ; then ( as our brethren suggest ) to prevent and preclude all reasonings against this assertion of theirs , viz. that the beleevers in Ierusalem were no more then could meet in one place : and there is most excellent reason for this reply & answer of the reverend & learned Assembly to their wicked cavil , for so I may truly cal it , for it is nothing else but to abuse the Holy Scripture , and for no other end but to deceive the people , that they may the better make merchandise of them , which is one of the horridst impieties in the world , which all the homothumadon Ministers and Predicants , and Itinerary Preacers are most deeply guilty of , who make a prey of the people where ever they come , and most abominably cheate them , especially the silly women . Now if we do duly examine the words of the Text and consider them in their native sense and true meaning , it will most manifestly appear that the Answer of the learned and reverend Assembly was grounded upon most excellent and solid reason , which all the slight of all the Homothumadons and their cunning craftinesse whereby they lie in wait to deceive simple souls , will be made more oriently appear in all its colours . First therefore I will set down the Text it selfe in its originall language , and then give the true interpretation of it in our tongue , Acts the second v. 1. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . The Translation is this , When the day of Pentecost was fully come , they were all with one accord upon that , viz. occasion or designe : For this is as much as the words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 do signifie , being taken both adjectively and relatively in that place , and therefore under reformation be it spoken , it is not rightly translated in our bibles ; for unlesse we do consider the words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with reference to some substantive or some thing going before , there can no sense be made of them , nor no man mortall can tell the meaning of them , no more then any man can divine or judge what one that commeth abruptly into his company and having interchanged no discourse with him doth mean and understand , if he should barely say upon this or upon that . Now all the contestation is about these words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as for the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 we all agree it signifieth with one accord . Now the Independents by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 understand in one place , which epì tò autò never signified in the world : for if we will stand upon the words , they have a far other meaning then the Homothumadon brethren give of them , as will by and by appear : for as for the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 taking it not as a preposition in the Greek tongue , as all the learned in that language know , it often signifies time , and of this I could produce many examples ; as if one speaking or writing Greek should say , such a thing happened in my time , or in my dayes , he would expresse it by epì and say 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , tempore meo , or mea aetate , it was done in my time : So that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 may with far better ground and by far far greater reason be interpreted for time in that text then for place , in regard there was no mention made of place before , but of time ; for it is in terminis said , When the day of Pentecost was fully come , they were all together with one accord 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : viz. at that instant of time or upon that very day ; this interpretation I say doth farre better come up to the sense and meaning of that text then the other in one place : for both 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in that text are relatively and adjectively taken ( as I said before ) having reference to something going before ; for otherwise they cannot possibly be understood So that there being mention of time before , they are to be interpreted rather of time then place : but that is not the true meaning of the words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in that text ; for the true interpretation therefore of them , we must have recourse to other places of holy Scripture , and primarily to that portion of Scripture from whence these words are taken , and that is out of the Septuagints translation upon the second Psalm ver . 2. which Saint Luke follows , which in the Greek runs thus , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which is rendred by the latin interpreters thus astiterunt reges terrae & principes convenerunt in unum adversus dominum & adversum Christum ejus . In our bibles the words are thus translated : The Kings of the earth set themselves and the Rulers take counsell together against the Lord and against his anoynted . So that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in that place must necessarily be taken for an evill designe , purpose , counsell , machination , or resolution : and indeed if we duly consider the words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 wheresoever we meet with them they do for the most part signifie some designe , purpose or resolution , whether it be taken in a good sense or a bad ; as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the Psalm is taken for a conspiracy and an evill design of the Kings and Rulers ; but in the second chapter of the Acts ver . 1. it is taken for a good design in the Disciples ; for when the day of Pentecost was fully come saith the Scripture , they were with one accord 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : viz. upon this occasion they were met together with this design , purpose and resolution to consecrate the day to Gods service and to celebrate the feast to his name ; and this is the true and genuine meaning of the place : viz. that the disciples were all met together upon the day of Pentecost upon this designe with full purpose and with an unanimous consent and resolution to keep that day and celebrate the feast unto the glory of God : and this was a good design and purpose in them which is signified by the words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which are not to be understood in one place as the Independents would have it and as it is translated : and that it may yet be more evident that by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is signified a design , and not in one place , very reason and common understanding will make it out and clear to every man if we will compare Scripture with Scripture , and in the first place duly consider the words in the 2 Psa . where it is said , that the Kings of the earth set themselvs , and the Rulers took counsel together 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; which words there do not imply a convention or meeting together of the persons of all the Kings and Princes in the world in any one place ; for that they never did nor could do , there being an impossibility of it both in respect of time and place : no place being able to contain them all , so that I say by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 there , is onely signified a wicked design and purpose , or a deliberate counsell and resolution agreed upon and consented unto in all their wicked and rebellious hearts to shake off the sweet yoke of Christ and of casting away from themselves those bands of love , and of breaking those cords of his affection towards them . For whereas God the father had appointed Christ to be King over the Nations to govern them by the Scepter of his Spirit and by the Rod of his Word , they all conspired with one accord to resist his spirituall government over their souls , and would not have him to rule over them ; And therefore the holy Ghost expresses this their conspiracy , wicked design and evil purpose by the words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which intimate as much as if the spirit of God had said this was the design resolution and the determinate counsell of all those wicked Kings and Rulers to reject the government of Christ over them , not meaning or understanding there by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that they in all their persons ever either came together or could meet in any one place . So that by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 there , is meant a design onely and not a meeting of all the persons of all Rulers and Kings in one place . The same expression we find Acts 4. ver . 26 , 27. where it is said , That Herod , Pontius Pilate , with the Gentiles and people of Israel were gathered together 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which expression is borrowed out of the second Psalme , the which words there likewise cannot with any reason be understood , That Herod and Pontius Pilate with all the Gentiles and the people of Israel did all meet in any one place : for all understanding forbids men so to argue or conceive or believe ; for they well know that there was no place could have contained them all together , no not the thousand part of them : besides they were all in their several Countryes and aboads , and it is well known that before this time Herod and Pilate were not so loving one to another as to come together : but it is related they were altogether 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to signifie that wheresoever they dwelt or in what coasts or regions soever their habitations were , they all agreed upon one and the same wicked design to be enemies of Christ , & in this wicked resolution they were epi tò autò that is , they all wel accorded and assented together to put the Lord of life to death and to cast of his government : So that by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 we are to understand a mentall meeting together , and not a topicall local and bodily meeting or convening of all those Kings in any one place , by which in all their consultations they were resolved to carry on their wicked design and unlawfull businesse , and in that regard they were said to be gathered together 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in unum , though they did it in severall places ; and this is the true meaning of epi tò autò there ; as when any men do carry on a good designe , though they be in dive●s and severall places , they may be said to be gathered together 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as now with us the Lords and Commons and divers Committees in both Houses , assemble themselves dayly epi tò autò , and are but one Parliament , though they meet in two severall rooms , and more ; and so a thousand Congregations and Assemblies may be said to meet Homothumadòn epi tò autò every Lords day , though they be in never so many distinct places , in regard of their common design to serve God on that day : So that all reason to any intelligible man from that I have said will clearly evince , that by epi tò autò is meant nothing else , but that the Apostles were met together with one accord upon the occasion of the feast of Pentecost with this deliberate design , and for this very end and purpose to celebrate that feast unto the Lord which was the work of that day ; the Iews also through all Indaea and from the regions round about being come up to Ierusalem to that f●ast to worship God in it ▪ and to offer up that service that was due unto his Name , and the which were taken up in the Temple and in their severall Synagogues and meeting places in the same imployment the Apostles were ; of all the which I affirme it may be as really and truly said that they all met Homothumadòn epi tò autò , as of the hundred and twenty Names : And yet no rationall man would from thence conclude that all the people did or could meet in one place : No more can any understanding creature or well grounded solid Christian gather , that because it is said the hundred and twenty names were all Homothumadon with one accord epi tò autò , that therefore there should be no more beleevers in Ierusalem then did or could all meet in any one place or congregation to partake in all Ordinances . as the Independents all gather from the words . I assert that such a kind of arguing in any man would argue that he had little brains in his head ; and therefore I shall be ever able by Gods assistance to maintain against all the Sectaries and Homothumadòn Independents that by epi tò autò is to be understood either some designe , whether it be taken in a good sense or a bad , which the holy Scripture apparently holds out unto us ; or if otherwise , that epi tò autò in the verse of the second chapter of the Acts is rather to be understood of the time of their meeting , then of the place : All this I say I undertake by Gods gracious assistance to make good against all the Independents and Sectaries , and to prove withall that they do all of them most wickedly for the deluding of the people , to gather and conclude from epi to auto that there were no more beleevers then or at any time after , in the Church of Ierusalem , then could all meet in any one place or Congregation : for indeed to make such a conclusion as this from epi tò autò is not onely to fight against all the light of sound reason , but to give the holy Ghost the lye and to resist the spirit of God , and to withhold the truth from the people in unrighteousnesse : All which I shall by and by God willing briefly make appear . But before I come to that , should I for disputation sake grant unto the brethren that by epi tò autò in that text were meant in one place , as they would have it ; because we cannot conceive if there be a meeting or convening of the persons of any people together , but it must be in a place or at a place as we usually speak : would it therefore follow that because any one place or room will hold a hundred and twenty names , for they say there were then no more in that company , to partake in all acts of worship , that it will hold hundreds of thousands , or that all the beleevers in Ierusalem did then meet there , or that there were no more beleevers then in that Church then could meet in one Congregation , or that for ever after there were no more Christians in Ierusalem then did ordinarily meet in one Congregation ? I am most assured that there is not any intelligible Independent but upon due deliberation would say , that he that should so conclude speaks against the very light of all understanding that dictates the contrary : and therefore he would not make that inference the Homothumadon brethren make : viz. that there were neither then in Ierusalem nor at any time after , more beleevers in that Church then could all meet in any one Congregation to partake in all acts of worship . But now to shew the vanity and wickednesse of these men and that it may appear they in this may be rightly called Homothumadons , in that they do with one accord and with one unanimous consent conspire together to trouble and disquiet the whole Church of God , and to disturbe the peace of the three Kingdomes , and are resolved to persist epì tò autô in that their wicked designe and that with one accord ; I shall here lay down some reasons , which all that will vouchsafe to read the ensuing discourse , shall see more fully set down afterwards . I say therefore they extreamly shew their vanity and wicked purpose in this that they all conclude from epì tò autò , there were no more beleevers at that time nor ever after in Ierusalem then could all meet in any one place or Congregation . For it is most certain that the beleevers that were in Jerusalem at that time were innumerable , and those inhabitants ; for the Scripture is clear in this point : for to say nothing of those that cryed Hosanna and cut down branches at Christs coming into Ierusalem which all made profession of him with the little children that cryed Hosanna also to the highest , whose Parents were all inhabitants in Ierusalem , and without doubt had taught all their children their lesson which they thought they might better shew publickly then themselves : The Scripture in the third of Matthew and in the first of Mark and in the third of Luke saith in expresse termes , That all Ierusalem , ( which being taken Synecdochically must needs signifie an innumerable company of all sorts of men ) came out to the Baptisme of John and were all baptized by him in Jordan confessing their sins , and all these were inhabitants : And in the fourth of Iohn it is expressed there , that Christ made more Disciples then John , and that his Disciples baptized more , so that necessarily there were infinites of beleevers then in Ierusalem , yea it is expressed in the twelfth of Iohn ver . 19. that the world went after Christ , that is , beleeved in him ; therefore there was a numberlesse company of beleevers in Jerusalem and all inhabitants there , and all these were good Christians and true beleevers , though I. S. most impiously affirmeth the contrary , and pag. 8. 9. of his Pamphlet asserteth , That they were not Christians , to whom my brother Burton in the 16 page of his briefe answer assenteth . Now that they were all good Christians and true beleevers that were baptized by John and Christs Disciples , all good Christians are bound to beleeve it , if any credit be to be given unto Christs words whose testimony I conceive is rather to be credited in this controversie then that of I. S. and my brother Burton ; for his witnesse is infallible who knew not onely their outward conversation but their very hearts also , and therefore could give a true testimony of them ; and yet he concludes of all those that were baptized by the Baptist , that they were all very good Christians and true beleevers . Our Saviours words are these , Luke 7. ver . 29 , 30. And all the people , mark I pray his expression , All the people ( saith Christ ) that heard him , and the Publicans justified God , being baptized with the baptisme of John. But the Pharisees and Lawyers rejected the Counsell of God against themselves being not baptized of him , which words of our blessed Saviour are to be beleeved before the words of men and angels , though they should all speak the contrary , as w●cked I. S. and my brother Burton both do . Now our Saviour in those words proclames all those that heard John the Baptist and were baptized by him , to be good Christians , and the Scripture saith , that Jerusalem , and they of Ierusalem came out to his baptisme and were baptized by him in Iordan , Matth. 3. And in Ae●on neer to Salim there was much water , John 3. 23. So that all these were inhabitants of Ierusalem and such as had their aboad in that City ; yea our blessed Lord and Saviour that true witness , who out of his bare word ought ever to be believed , doth not onely say they were good Christians and true beleevers , but proves it by many arguments : The first of the which is this , that they justified God , that is , they acknowledged that God was a most just righteous and a mercifull God , forgiving iniquity , transgression and sin , and keeping promise unto his people , which was , 2 Chron. 7. ver . 14. that if his people which are called by his name shall humble themselves and pray and seek his face , and turn from their wicked wayes ; that then he would hear from heaven and forgive their sin and heal their land . This promise of God and all his other gracious promises , those that were baptized by Iohn did beleeve : for , saith o●r Saviour , they justified God ; declaring unto the world by their profession , that they beleeved in him and imbraced his promises ; which is yet farther manifest from Christs second argument which is this , they rejected not ( saith he ) the counsell of God against themselves as the Pharisees and Lawyers did ▪ Now if we consider but what the counsell of God was to the people in the ministery of Iohn the Baptist we shall find it in the third of Matthew where the Baptist preaching unto all Ierusalem that came out unto his baptisme , as it is also clear in the third of Luke , he says there , repent , for the Kingdome of heaven is at hand , warning them to fly from the wrath to come , exhorting them all to bring forth fruits meet for repentance , telling them of the danger that would otherwise ensue if they did not repent and beleeve in the Messiah who was to come shortly after him with his fanne in his hand , who would throughly purge his floore and gather his Wheat into his garner , but burn up the chaffe with unquenchable fire ; and therefore he exhorted them all again and again to repent and beleeve in the Messiah ; this good counsell did Iohn the Baptist give to all those that came out of Ierusalem to his Baptisme , and our Saviour affirmes and witnesses of them all , that they rejected not his counsell as the Pharisees did to their own destruction , but imbraced it to their salvation , and therefore they were all true beleevers if our Saviour knew who were beleevers , which yet he proves by a third argument , saying , that they were all baptized of him confessing their sins ; in token of their repentance , and of their faith in the Messiah they were all baptized by John , saith Christ ; and therefore they were all very good Christians and true beleevers : all these arguments for brevity sake may be reduced into one argument after this manner , All those that justifie God and imbrace the counsell of God , that do repent , confesse and forsake their sins , and beleeve in Iesus Christ , and in token of their faith and obedience are baptized into him , they are all good Christians and true beleevers ; but all these , saith Christ , that heard John the Baptist with the Publicans , except the Pharisees and Lawyers , were such : Ergo , they were all good Christians and beleevers , and all Jerusalem consisted of such ; for Ierusalem went out to Jo●n the Baptist and were baptized by him in Jordan confessing their sins : and yet more then these were converted by Christ , his Apostles and seventy Disciples ministery , and all inhabitants in Jerusalem : And therefore all these could not possibly be contained in any one place or a few , and all these were then in Jerusalem as well as the hundred and twenty names , and therefore all the beleevers at that time in Jerusalem , though they were all epi tò autò as well as the Apostles , yet they were not all in one place as the Homothumadon brethren would infer ; for those that the first chapter of the Acts speaks of ver . 15. those hundred and twenty names which met together in the second Chapter and first Verse , were Christs apostles and Disciples and such as had followed him from the beginning of Iohns baptisme , and were indeed all Ministers of the Gospell and preachers of the Word and men of great eminency and fame and renoun , and therfore by a great elegancy are called Names , the number of the Names ( saith the Holy Ghost ) which kind of expression in the Holy Scripture , is ever used for to expresse men only of transcendent excellencie and desert for their rare vertues and endowments , as is manifest out of the Revel . 3. 4. and all these were taken up in holy duties , as the occasion required , and were by themselves ; but may any rationall man conclude from thence , that there were no more Beleevers in Ierusalem ? would not this be thought an odde kind of arguing , if one should thus dispute against the Independents , those Homothumadon brethren , all the Independent Predicants , and their Itinerary Preachers , those eminent and learned men , those names are all 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the Citie of London on one of their Feast dayes : Ergo , there is no more Independents in the Citie of London then can meet at all times in any one Congregation to partake in all their Ordinances ; would not all the Independents laugh at any Presbyterian that should thus dispute ? when they themselvs boast that there be millions of them in London . Now by the holy Scripture we are truly informed there were millions of true beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem at that very time , and that they were the Ministers only that were present together on the day of Pentecost , and that the other Beleevers were in their other meeting places : yea , besides those that I have now named , it is said in the same Chapter , verse 5. that ( at that instant of time ) there were dwelling at Jerusalem , Iewes , devout men out of every nation under heaven , that is true Worshippers , and Beleevers : here therefore must needs bee an innumerable company of these , and all these were then Inhabitants in Ierusalem : so that the Holy Scripture doth by many witnesses prove there were more then a hundred and twenty Beleevers , or more then a hundred thousand in Ierusalem at that time , how therefore with any honesty can the Independents conclude from Epi to auto , that there were no more Beleevers then in Ierusalem , nor ever after , then could all meet in one Congregation ? If this be not to fight against God , there was never any fighting against him . But should I yeeld unto them , which I cannot doe for many reasons , that there were no more Beleevers at that time in Ierusalem , then did or could all meet in any one place ; will it follow in any sound understanding that they could ever after all still meet in one Congregation , when they were infinitly daily increased ? I trow not ; for so to speake , and so to argue and conclude , would be but to prove fighters against all reason ; yea against God himself ( as I said before ) and to deny the expresse Scriptures , as will forthwith appeare ; for in the same Chapter when there were but three thousand new Converts added to the Church , it is said that then that company could not all meet in any one place to communicate in all acts of worship , but for want of a place spacious enough for to breake bread in , they were forced then to meet in divers places , and to divide themselves into severall Assemblies and Congregations , and that in severall houses ; for so saith the Scripture , verse 46. and they continued daily with one accord in the Temple , and breaking bread from house to house ; that is , in many severall houses , they had their meetings to communicate in ; therefore at that very time there were many Congregations of Beleevers , so that they could not possibly meet altogether in one place . And here by the way it is good to take notice , not onely that there were many Congregations of Beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem , which the Independents confesse to be the first formed Church , and that when there were but three thousand new Converts added to the Disciples , but that all these were speedily and readily received into Church-fellowship , and that by the sole and alone authority of the Apostles , so that it was not required at their hands , that they should first walke sometime with the Church before their admission , or that they should make a particular confession of their faith , or bring in the evidences of their conversion , or that they should enter into any particular explicite Covenant , or that they must have the consent of the Church before they could be received into Church-fellowship ; nothing I say of all this was either practised in this Mother-church , or any Daughter-church in the Primitive and purest times ; but these two truths are most certainely evident out of the Scripture . The first , that all Christians in the church of Ierusalem were admitted into Church-fellowship upon their repenting , beleeving and being baptised , without any other conditions , and that upon offering themselves . The second truth is this , that there were many congregations and Assemblies of Beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem at that instant time , which is abundantly proved out of the testimonies and reasons above specified , and those expresse words , where it is said that they brake bread from house to house ; therefore there were many Congregations then . But it will farther more illustriously yet appeare , if we consider the divers other additions of Beleevers , and that daily unto the Church of Ierusalem : for in the last verse of this chapter it is said that the Lord added daily unto the Church such as should bee saved ; here we find additions upon additions of Beleevers , and that daily , indefinitly set downe , as if they could not easily have been told , which addeth no small Emphasis unto the expression ; and all these were admitted into Church-fellowship without any of those conditions the Independents require of all their Members in these our times ; for it is said the Lord added daily unto the Church such as should be saved ; and therefore hee did it onely upon his owne termes of Repentance , Faith and Baptisme . Now what understanding man can easily beleeve that when there was such daily increase of Beleevers made , that they could all still meet in any one place or Congregation to partake in all Ordinances ? But if wee looke into the fourth chapter , we shall find an other new Addition , and that of five thousand men more , besides women ; for so saith the Scripture , verse 4. Howbeit , many of them which heard the word beleeved , and the number of the men was about five thousand . Now if when there were but three thousand , they were then forced for want of a convenient place spacious enough to communicate in , to divide themselves into divers severall houses ; how impossible a thing was it for them all daily then to meet together in any one place or congregation , may any one imagine , when there were not only daily additions of Beleevers , but five thousand men more added unto the Church at one time ? without all controversie it was impossible that they could all then meet together in any one place ; and for farther confirmation of this truth , and for the putting of this controversie for ever out of doubt , the Holy Ghost saith in the fifth chapter , verse 14. And Beleevers were more added unto the Church , multitudes both of men and women . Marke I pray the expression , multitudes : Now by multitude , all men know is to be understood , and that in all Languages , a very great Assembly or congregation , or company ; whereupon the Scripture saith , follow not a multitude to doe evill , so that by multitude is ever understood some vast Assembly or Congregation of people ; and here the Scripture saith , speaking in the plurall number that multitudes , and that both of men and women were added to the Lord , that is to say many great Congregations and Assemblies were added to the Church ; yea , the expression doth as it were intimate that they came in so fast that they could not now any longer be counted as it were by retayle or enumerate companies , as when they came in by small numbers , as three thousand and five thousand at a time which might easily be told and reckoned , but that now they came into the Church in such great bodies , as they were forced to set them downe by whole sale ; and therefore the Holy Ghost saith , that Beleevers were added unto the Lord , multitudes both of men and women , that is to say many great Congregations of Beleevers of both sexes ; yea , and that there might yet be no mistake in this busines , the Scripture saith in the last verse of this chapter , for the great multitudes of them , that the Apostles daily in the Temple , and in every house ceased not to teach and preach Iesus Christ . So that here by the testimony of the Holy Ghost wee are ascertained there were divers and severall Congregations of Beleevers at that time in the Church of Ierusalem ; for they had their meetings not onely in the Temple , but in every house , or from house to house , which is all one that is to say , they had many Congregations and Assemblies of Beleevers at that time in severall private houses , as well as in the Temple ; so that this truth being confirmed unto us not onely by reason , but by the mouth of so many infallible witnesses , as that out of the second chapter , where it is said they brake bread daily from house to house , and two more witnesses also in this fifth chapter , where it is recorded , verse 14. that multitudes both of men and women , that is to say many great Congregations of Beleevers of both sexes were added to the Lord , and in the last verse , that there might be yet no scruple made of the busines , the places of their meetings are also expressed , viz. in the Temple and in every house ; so that all good Christians are bound to beleeve that there were many Congregations and Assemblies of Beleevers at that time in the Church of Jerusalem , and therefore more then could all possibly meet in any one place or congregation . So that if I should say no more , the truth concerning this point is so evidently apparent to all judicious and understanding men , that they cannot doubt of it , except they will deny the Scripture it selfe ; yet that the truth concerning this controversie may yet more fully be cleared , I shall for the farther coroborrating of it and for confirmation of the same , produce a few testimonies more . In the sixth chapter , verse 7. The word of the Lord increased , ( saith the Holy Ghost ) and the number of Disciples multiplyed in Jerusalem greatly , and a great company of the Priests were obedient to the faith . Here wee find multiplication upon multiplication of Beleevers , and more additions of them , and that in Ierusalem , and amongst these multitudes there was a great company of Priests , that is a great company of their Ministers and learned Rabbies were converted , and all these severall admissions of Beleevers into this Church of Jerusalem were without any of the conditions those of the congregationall way require now of their new Members ; for it is not said , that they demanded of them that they should walke some time with them before their admission , or that they should make any publicke confession of their faith , or bring in the evidences of their conversion , or enter into any particular explicite Covenant , or come in by the consent of the people before their admission ; nothing of all these things were required at their hands in this Mother-church ; and therefore all the practise of this kind of admission in our new Congregations is without any president or example ; and therefore those of the congregationall way doe most wickedly to pretend they have the Church of Jerusalem for an example for their practise of admitting of Members . But I say the thing chiefly to be observed here is the multiplication and the increase of many more Disciples to the former , adding withall , that amongst those Disciples and Converts that were added to the Lord there was a great company of the Priests : now what an increase of Beleevers may any man suppose there must then needs follow , when so many of their Ministers were converted ? without doubt when the people saw their Priests turne Christians , and heard them also in their preachings give in their reasons for their imbracing of the Gospel , and saw withall the daily miracles of the Apostles for the confirmation of this their doctrine they did infinitly multiply ; so that if there had beene no conversion of men before spak of , yet the conversion of these very Priests in a short time would have procured the conversion of many more then could have met in any one place or a few ; and this all reason will perswade ; for wee find it by hourly experience , how many hundreds are daily mislead , and seduced by the error of a few temporising unstable Presbyters , who are turned Independents , and what a deale of mischiefe they have done here amongst us , so that not a few places can containe their Proselytes , and all this without the helpe of any miracles ; and we see daily , if but any rich and crased Gentlewoman , or any confounded Lady turne Independent , or if but any unstable man of any eminency revolt from the Presbyterian way , what a noyse there is by and by made at it , and how many giddy headed men , and women especially , are seduced by it , and that without any prodigies : Now I say all reason will perswade any intelligible man that truth should much more prevaile then error , and that in the hands of so great a multitude , and of such learned Rabbies , and those also in so great honour and esteeme amongst the people , having withall the helpe of Miracles amongst them , and that to the speedy conversion of many thousands ; yea , the Scripture saith , that the Word of God increased , that is to say converted many , and that the number of Disciples multiplyed in Jerusalem greatly , not in a small manner ; and that a great company of the Priests were also added unto the Lord ; so that if there were a great Congregation and Assembly of the Priests , as the Word of God relateth ; there must necessarily be many more Congregations of the ordinary people , and all these are to be yet reckoned upon a new account , and upon a new List , so that there were numberlesse Congregations of Beleevers in the Church of Jerusalem , if any credit may be given to the Holy Scripture , and that in the very infancy of the Church : so that I am most confident , that this truth is now evident and perspicuous to all those that have but ordinary understanding . But because this is the onely busines , as the Independents say , and that will put an end to this controversie betweene us ; for they have often said , prove once but clearly unto us out of the Word of God that there were many Congregations of Beleevers in the Church of Jerusalem , and then wee will grant you the day ; I say in this regard I shall briefly adde some other Arguments to prove there were more Beleevers in the Church of Jerusalem then could all possibly meet in any one Congregation or a few : for to these that were daily converted and added to the Church , wee heare upon all occasions of additions upon additions , and of increase upon increase of many more Beleevers : for in the ninth chapter , verse 31. it is recorded , that the Churches having rest through all Judea and Galilee , and Samaria , they were multiplyed , for so it is in the O●iginall . Now Ierusalem was the chiefe Church in Iudaea , and therefore shee also multiplyed and increased in Disciples daily , which being added to the former spake of , it makes it an impossible thing that they could all meet together in any one place or a few . And in the 12. chapter upon the miraculous death of Herod , it is said verse 24. that the Word of God grew and multiplyed in Ierusalem , that is , brought forth great increase of ' Beleevers , and made them exceedingly daily to multiply , so that all these additions upon additions of Beleevers made it an impossible thing that the hundreth part of them could meet in any one place . But omitting many Arguments that I could produce from the multitudes of their Preachers , and the diversity of the nations , and the infinit number of the Inhabitants , and from the Miracles in Jerusalem that necessarily called for many Congregations and Assemblies ; that one place in the 21. of the Acts may for ever silence all Gain-sayers , and abundanly prove unto rationall men , that there were many , if not numberlesse congregations of Beleevers then in the church of Ierusalem . If we will but take notice what Saint Iames , and all the Presbyters of Jerusalem spake unto Saint Paul , who being all Inhabitants there , and the Ministers and Preachers of the Word in that Church , must all necessarily know not onely the condition of the Beleevers there , but for the most part the number of them ; now I say it will be worth our paines and attention , to observe and take notice what is there confirmed by the testimony of many witnesses , yea , a cloud of witnesses , and all of them without exception , there was Iames the Apostle by name , and all the Presbyters of Ierusalem , all Synodians , whose witnesse was true , and for ever to be beleeved , and yet they give in this evidence to Saint Paul , concerning the Beleevers in Ierusalem , that there were many ten thousands of weake Brethren here ; how many ten thousands more may we suppose were there then of strong Brethren in the Church of Jerusalem ? seeing for the most part in all Churches where there are able and learned Ministers it is ever observed , that there are three strong brethren to one weak one , at least more strong brethren then weak ones : Now when there was a whole Colledge of Apostles for the most part resident in that Church , and a whole colledge of Presbyters , fixed Ministers there and able Preachers , besides a multitude of Priests , and all painefull , and laborious , that preached unto them night and day , & instructed them all in their Christian Liberty , and confirmed them in it with miracles ; and when they had also for a farther strengthning of them in that their Christian Liberty , called a Councell and Synod in Jerusalem , and ratified the abrogation of the legall Ceremonies , and that from the Holy Scripture , and the Spirit of God , and did daily preach unto them all this their Christian Liberty ; we are bound by the Law of charity to beleeve there were many more thousands of strong Christians then weake in that Church ; yea , our daily experience will perswade any man to beleeve this Doctrine ; Now let us heare what Saint Iames , and all the Presbyters witnesse unto Saint Paul concerning this point , verse 20. Thou seest Brother Paul ( say they ) how many ten thousands ( for so it is in the Originall 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the Iewes there are which beleeve , and they are all zealous of the Law ; out of the which words wee may observe that those Saint Iames and the Presbyters speake of were all Inhabitants in Ierusalem , for they could witnesse nothing of strangers , those that dwelt in other places , neither could they have said thou seest them , if they had not beene Inhabitants , or if they had beene here to day and gone to morrow ; for then they could not have beene taken notice of ; but they speake of Inhabitants , as by many Arguments may be proved , and of all these they asser● these things . First , for the number of them , that they were many ten thousands . Secondly , that they were all Beleevers , Disciples , and very good Christians , yea very zealous ones . Thirdly , they doe witnesse , that all these many ten thousands were but weake Brethren , and therefore gave Saint Paul counsell , yea an order , somewhat to connive at their weaknesse for a time , that hee might the better ingratiate himselfe into their favour ; the story is there fully set downe . Now I say if there were many ten thousands of weak Brethren in the Church of Jerusalem , how many more ten thousands of strong Beleevers may any rationall men suppose were then there in that church , where there were a colledge of Apostles forthe most part , and a standing Colledge of able Presbyters , all miraculous Teachers , and assisted immediatly by the spirit of God ? Surely a few hundred of houses or places could not possibly have held their very bodies , much lesse could a few hundred of houses have held them to partake in all the Ordinances ; so that all men that have not absolutely resolved to give the Spirit of God the lye , yea , to wage warre against Heaven , must acknowledge , that there were many Congregations and Assemblies of Beleevers in the Church of Jerusalem , especially when it commeth confirmed by so many witnesses of divine authority . By which it appeareth that there were many Congregations of Beleevers there , as in every house one . So that for this point , I am most assured it is now without controversie , that there were many Congregations and Assemblies of Beleevers in the Church of Jerusalem ; and yet all these as the Holy Scripture asserteth in many places , made all but one Church ; and the Independents themselves acknowledge , there was but one Church in Jerusalem . Now how in any ordinary mans understanding can many congregations be one politicall ministeriall Church , except only because they are united and associated under one Presbyteriall government ? that is to say , under the government of a whole colledg of Presbyters which the Church of Ierusalem was ? for there was many Presbyters there as this 21. ch . testifieth and the 15. chap. and many other places of holy writ , all which had the government over that Church committed to them in common ; So that it may be a wonder to all rationall men that there should any appear in the world , notwithstanding the abundant evidence out of the holy Word of God , that should yet assert , there were no more beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem then could all meet in one Congregation : which assertion of theirs , besides the Scripture , very common reason overthrows ; for if we consider Jerusalem , it is said to be the city of the great King in which there were never lesse then seven or eight hundred thousand inhabitants , who dayly expected the Messiah ; who it is well known when he came had twelve Apostles and seventy Disciples at his command to go and come at pleasure , whose powerfull preaching was such , that it is related that Satan was seen fall down like iightning from heaven , that is to say , whose Kingdome was overthrown by their ministery , and by all whose efficacious preaching and miracles we have this testimony that at one of their Miracles and Sermons there were three thousand converted at one time , besides dayly additions added unto that Church by the Lord , and five thousand men besides women at another , and multitudes of beleevers both of men and women at another , and that there was dayly increase of beleevers upon increase with a multitude of Priests , besides a whole colledge of Presbyters settled Ministers amongst them , and that all these should yet prevail to convert no more in future time then could all meet in one Congregation , it seems a thing very incredible : and truly for any to persevere in this error against all reason and against the evident testimonies of holy Scripture , where we have it recorded there were many ten thousands of very weak beleevers in that one Church besides the strong , it is an open and wilfull fighting against God and a resisting of his spirit , which is a fearfull sin : for all these are convincing arguments to prove the numberlesse multitudes and congregations of beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem : And all th●s brigade of arguments militate against the whole Army of the Homothumadon Sectaries , and shall I hope for ever serve to vanquish them all and to make good this field of truth , That there were many Congregations and Assemblies of beleevers in the Church of Jerusalem , and yet they were not every one a Church or Churches severally considered by themselves , exercising an absolute soveraignty Independent within themselves respectively , as all our new gathered Churches do now here in London : but all those congregations in Jerusalem were all subordinate , and being combined together made all of them but one Church , and were all under a common Counsell or Colledg of Presbyters within that Precinct ; the example of which Mother-Church is left upon record to all posterity for imitation : and therefore that tenent of the Homothumadon Independents concerning the congregationall way , hath no ground for it in the whole Word of God , but is a meer whimsy of their own brain , and hath its foundation only in the aire , and will soon vanish or be speedily blown away by the blast and breath of truth . Now my other companies drawn out of the Apostles quarters after Christs death and ascension , they militate against all the Burtonian Independents , who acknowledge that there were many Assemblies of beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem , but deny they were Churches properly so called ; now though by their grant they have lost the day ( as in the following skirmishes will appear ) yet that all men may see that this sconse of error to which they have betaken themselves , cannot defend their cause ; I shall with one company at this time beat them out of that hold , and fully vanquish them in the pitcht field : It is recorded Act. 2. v. 42. of all those new converts which were in many assemblies & in many houses , that they continued stedfastly in the Apostles doctrine and fellowship , and in breaking of bread and in prayers . This very troop alone serves for the beating of them all out of what bulwark soever they can betake themselves to for shelter : for if all these congregations and Assemblies of believers were equall in all priviledges and immunities with any Churches that ever were on earth , and had in them severally whatsoever did make the whole Church of Ierusalem the first formed Church , then they were all and every one of them Churches properly so called : But the antecedent is true : Ergo , the consequent ; so that to any rationall man this question is also out of controversie : for let any man but duly examine , what it was in the whole church of Jerusalem that made it the first formed church and a church properly so called , and he shall find the same in every one of those particular congregations and assemblies for the making of them churches properly so called ; so that th●y each of them severally may as truly challenge the name of Church , as the whole Church can , they communicating in whatsoever is essentiall for the making of any church a compleat church or a church properly so called , if partaking in all Ordinances by lawfull Ministers can make any assembly or congregation a church properly so called : So that by this one company and by this very argument all the whibling reserves of all the Burtonian Independents are dissipated and scattered , and that place of truth maintained against them all : viz. that every one of those Assemblies in Jerusalem were churches properly so called , and yet all of them made up but one intire Church , and they were not every of them severally considered by themselves and apart Independent and exercising an absolute soveraignty within themselves : And therefore this truth shall for ever stand good against all sorts of Independents That many congregations combined together and subordinate to some one colledg of Presbyters make all of them within their precincts but one entire Church : and that this is Gods Ordinance , and not that tenent of the congregationall way which hath neither precept or president for it in all Gods holy Word : So that by all these encounters and frequent skirmishes and by the mighty power and assistance of the great Lord of Hostes the Generall of all the Armies of heaven and earth , I have vanquished all the forces both of the Homothumadon Independents and all the Burtonian Sectaries , and maintained and kept not onely the field of truth , but these two sconses and bulwarks of the same : viz. The first , that there were many congregations and assemblies of believers in the church of Jerusalem . The second , that all those severall congregations and assemblies were churches properly so called : which when it comes to the main battell , will be fully made good , and withall it will be maintained , that all those severall congregations made all of them but one Church , and were all of them combined together and subordinate to one Presbytery , that is , to a Colledg of Presbyters , who by Gods own appointment had the rule over them committed to them in common : by all which the doctrine of the Congregationall way is utterly overthrown , whose tenent and opinion it is , that every Congregation of beleevers , be it greater or smaller , ought to be a distinct Church or body by it self exercising all Church power and authority within it self Independent ; and ought not to have reference or relation to any other church or congregation for matter of government , no farther then pleaseth themselves ; and this they affirme to be Gods Ordinance and Constitution , whereas in the Church at Ierusalem the Mother-church , there were innumerable Congregations and Assemblies of beleevers , and yet all of them made up but one Church : For those severall congregations , as the Burtonian Independents do affirme , were but branches of that one entire Church ; these are their words . By all which it now appeareth that it is Gods Ordinance and his Appointment that many congregations combined together in any city or vicinity within some Precinct , should all of them within that jurisdiction make up but one Church and be under a Colledg of Presbyters to be governed by them in common , which is indeed a meer ecclesiasticall Corporation ; and therefore this kind of government might without any offence or diviation from the holy Word of God be compared by me to any civill Corporation , as that of London or the like : For though I. S. and my brother Burton spend much time and many words to no purpose about my simile , yet it will stand for ever immoveable and serve to all intelligible Christians for that very end I propound it : viz. to declare the state of the question ; yea by I. S. his own words pag ▪ the fourth of his Pamphlet it is authorized ; for he there after much babble thus expresseth himself concerning this point , when ( saith he ) we know the true nature of spirituall things , of the devices of God , as I may call them , we may find a resemblance of them in things here below , which are made after them , but we cannot fetch the knowledg of heavenly composures from these earthly things . Thus J. S. speaks there . So that I having from the holy Word of God and from the constitution of the Church at Jerusalem the first true formed Church and originall Church found out the true nature of that spirituall and ecclesiasticall government , that heavenly composure and that device of God ( as he grollishly calleth it ) it was then no sin in me ( in I. S. his opinion ) to find a resemblance of it in things below . And therefore both he himselfe and my brother Burton might have saved all that labour they needlesly spent about that simile , which will ever stand good against whatsoever they shall be able to say against it , for the elucidating and cleering of the point of difference between the Presbyterians and the Independents , which was the onely end I made use of it for ; and there fore all the pudder they made about that simile , was but to beat the aire and to vent their own vanity . But from all this dispute ( that I may now speak something concerning Nationall Churches , which the Independents deny ) I farther gather , That if many hundred Congregations being combined together under one Presbytery in any great City or Vicinity within any large Jurisdiction , may all of them make up but one Church within that Precinct , and may take its name or denomination from the City or place in which it is : I see no reason why a thousand Parishes , yea ten thousand , all of them imbracing the Gospell and making profession of the true Christian Religion , in what Kingdome , Nation , Province , Country , or Commonwealth soever they be , may not all of them in those severall Countries , being all of them combined together and under some grand Presbyteries , take their severall names and denominations either from those respective nations or languages , and be called either the Greek Church , or the Hebrew Church , or the Latin Church , or the French Church , or the Dutch Church , &c. or be called the Church of England , Scotland , Ireland , or or such a Provinciall Church , or such a Nationall Church ; I say I see no reason why , if all those severall Nations coming in at the sound of the Gospel , and all of them giving up their names to the profession of the Christian faith , may not as well from those severall Nations take the name of the Church from the Nation as they may take it from Jerusalem or from any other City as that of Corinth , Ephesus , &c. and so become Nationall churches : I desire therefore any man to give me a good and solid reason to the contrary ; for this I am sure of , that it was promised unto Abraham that he should be a Father of many Nations , which he was not in respect of his naturall posterity : for he was onely in that regard a Father of the Hebrews who challenged Abraham to be their Father ; and therefore it must necessarily be in respect of their faith and spirituall parentage in that they are all of them his children in regard of their common faith and beleif in the Messiah , whose day Abraham by faith saw and rejoyced in it , which all the Nations of beleevers do , and therefore they likewise in that respect are called the children , sons and daughters of Abraham , and may therefore be truly called Nationall Churches , which all the Independents with my brother Burton and I. S. deny ; for Christ is called the light of the Gentiles , yea there are many glorious promises concerning the calling of the Nations and Gentiles ; as that in Isaiah 19. ver . 23 , 24. where it is said , In that day shall there be a highway out of Aegypt to Assyria , and the Assyrian shall come into Aegypt , and the Aegyptian into Assyria , and the Aegyptians shall serve with the Assyrians . In that day shall Israel be the third with Aegypt , and with Assyria , even a blessing in the midst of the Land. Here all these three Nations are called three sister Churches , if we mark the coherence . And for farther proof of Nationall Churches under the Gospell it is said , Isaiah 55. 5. Thou shalt call a Nation which thou knowest not , and Nations which knew not thee shall run unto thee , which words are spake of Christ under the Gospell , in the which is set down both Gods Call of a Nation , and the Nations Answer to that Call , and there can be no more required to make a Church . And it is prophecyed of Gospell times , Psal . 22. 27. And all the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord , and all the kindreds of the Nations shall worship before thee . And Psal . 72. it is said All Kings shall fall down before him , and all Nations shall serve him . And Psal . 86. 9. All Nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee , O Lord , and shall glorifie thy name : Innumerable places to this purpose might be produced for the proving of Nationall Churches ; for all Nations are Christs by donation , Psal . 2. 8. Ask of me ( saith the Lord speaking to Christ ) and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance , and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession : Yea they are his by conquest who hath vanquished the strong man and disarmed him and vindicated the Nations into his own possession ; yea they are his by purchase also : viz. all the elect of them , for he hath redeemed them with his precious blood , 1 Pet. 1. Acts 20. Yea they are his by call , for he sent his Apostles into all nations to invite them to come in , Matth. 28. Marke 16. And many of them obeyed the call and are his by covenant , as we may see it Revel . 11. v. 15. where it is said The Kingdomes of this world are become the Kingdomes of our Lord , and of his Christ , and he shall raigne for ever and ever . And Paul in the 11. of the ROM . speaking unto all the Gentiles , in as much as he was the Apostle of the Gentiles , saith ver . 17. That some of the naturall branches being broken off , the Gentiles which were the wilde Olive tree were graffed in amongst them and with them did partake of the root and fatnesse of the Olive tree ; So that now all the Nations were equall in priviledges with the Jews in all respects , so that as that was a nationall Church , so are they , and yet all make but one Church , for there is but one shepherd and one sheep fold , one Church consisting of Jews and Gentiles ; now as the Church of the Jews is said to be but one Nationall church , because all the tribes in that Family or Nation , and all the visible and publike assemblies of the same being parts of the catholicke church , and living under one ecclesiasticall and civill government , were by the profession of the same faith and fellowship and communion of the same worship and government united into one body ecclesiastick or ecclesiastical commonwealth : So for ought I know all those Kingdomes , Nations , Countries and Provinces that shall imbrace the Gospel ( as I said before ) and come under the government of Jesus Christ the great high Priest and King of his church which was typified by the legall high Priest and the Kings of Judah and do yeeld obedience unto him and that government he hath appointed in his church , may all of them , being joyned in a particular consociation and community in any country Nation or Province or Kingdome , receive their denomination from the several countries & nations in which they are . For the Church eatholick being an homogenial and similar body retains the name of church , into what cities , countries , nations or Kingdomes soever it be divided into ; for as those many Congregations in the Church at Ierusalem made all of them but one church within its precincts , and had its name from thence ; so may the many Parishes and Villages , which being met together in their severall bounds , in the profession of the same Christian faith , make but one Church , being all of them through that countrie combined together under one government , both Ecclesiasticall and civill ; for as for the division of the nations , it is not to be considered , meerly as an humane and politicke Ordinance , as many conceive , and therefore would make Provinciall Churches , and Parish Churches a humane invention ; for in the 32. of Deut. v. 8. it is said there when the most high divided to the nations their inheritance ; so that God was the Author of this division , and gave their severall names unto them , and set all their bounds and limits ; yea , he hath set the bounds of every man , as it is sufficiently proved by the Apostle , Acts 17. where hee saith , verse 26. that God hath made of one blood all nations of men , for to dwell on all the face of the earth , and hath determined the times before appointed , and the bounds of their habitations ; so that the division of the whole world into divers nations , and those nations into severall Provinces and Counties , and those counties into so many hundreds , and Wapentakes , or Rapes , or Tribes , and all these into so many severall Parishes , is said to be Gods owne appointment ; for he is said to have divided the nations , & tohave set them their bounds ; and therefore I can conceive no reason why Parish Churches amongst us may not as well be accounted Gods Ordinance , as Parish Synagogues amongst the Iewes ; and why citie Churches amongst us may not as well be Gods Ordinance now , as it was then ; for so by divine institution they were then in the Apostles times esteemed ; and it is well knowne that in New-England all their severall Townes , as that of Plymouth , Bostorne , Cambridge , &c. have all their bounds and limits prescribed unto them , and all the people within that precinct , and no farther , that submit themselves to that their government , are said to be Members of each severall Church , and of no other ; and yet ▪ all this is as much politick , as the division of our Parishes and Cities ; and those Churches constituted by the Apostles in every citie , village and countrey , were as much politick as ours , and yet are called Gods Ordinances : and truly I know no good reason why our parish churches should not farre rather , and with farre greater reason be of divine institution , then those churches of the congregationall way : for it is well knowne that all the Members in our severall Parishes dwell within such and such limits , and for the most part are all well and familiarly knowne one to an other ; and every weeke , once at least see all one an others faces , and can daily meet together for to watch over one another ; whereas those of the congregationall way dwell many of them twenty miles one from another , and some threescore miles one from another , and all for the most part a great distance one from another , scattered here and there , so that they cannot possibly one watch over an other , as is pretended , and behold one an others conversation , for that is impossible ; and therefore for my particular I know that the parochiall or parishionall assembling of themselves together for the injoying of the Ordinances hath presidents for it in holy Writ , and that many , both in cities and villages ; but wee have not one president of such congregations as are now in our new Churches in all the whole Booke of God ; and therefore I conclude that all our parochiall meetings are farre more of divine institution , and Churches properly so called then the Assemblies of the congregationall way : And by the same Argument I may gather that the Christian Churches now through the world , at least all the reformed Churches may as well be called nationall Churches , as the Jewish Church was , especially if we looke unto the requisites that make a nationall Church ; for two things are required for the making of a nationall Church ; first a nationall agreement in the same faith and worship . Secondly , a nationall union in one Ecclesiasticall body in the same community of Ecclesiasticall government ; as now the Church of England , Scotland and Ireland , have all by covenant bound themselves to maintaine the same faith and worship , and by a nationall union and agreement they have accorded to be under a Presbyteriall government , and this they all acknowledge to be Gods Ordinance , and a way appointed by him of governing his church ; and that the Presbyterian government is Gods Ordinance , the Independents themselves doe acknowledge , but they hold only a congregationall Presbyterie , and we hold , and that from all reason , and from the good word of God , and from many presidents , both Citie , classicall , provinciall and nationall Presbyteries , and oecumenicall also upon occasions ; for of these kinds of Presbyteries , both the Word of God , and many Ecclesiasticall Histories doe furnish us with some presidents : and therefore for the one wee have divine institution for it , and many examples in the Booke of God ; but wee have neither precept nor example of that of the congregationall way , and therefore it is none of Gods institutions , nor none of his devices nor composures , that I may use some of I. S. his Rhetoricke , but a meere figment of their own braine . But now I am to answer to something my Brother Burton hath to say concerning the Presbyters of the Church of England , who pag. 6. 7. of his Booke , If you ( saith he ) have not a good Presbyterie , where shall hee , viz. that is scandalized or offended , goe to complaine ? Hee may goe and appeale higher you will say , and what if the higher the worse ? Good Brother ( saith hee ) either provide the people of the Land an honest godly Presbytery , that may be as so many Angels to gather out of Christs Kingdome every thing that offends ; or else let there be a tender care of tender consciences , and some provision made for them , that they may not be scandalized by being forced to be the companions of the scandalous . Thus my Brother Burton . Here is a double If propounded meerly to amuse the people : for it is not unknowne to all men that the Parliament , the great Councell of the Kingdome , endeavoureth to cast out all scandalous Ministers , so farre as their power extendeth through the Kingdome , if by information and sufficient witnesses they can be proved to be such ; so that every conscientious and intelligible man may see there is very small ground for the doubts and feares , either of my Brother Burton , or any of that Fraternity , that there will not be a good Presbytery set up , and as little ( when they cannot deny but the godly if offended may goe and appeale higher ) for either he himselfe or they to make such a supposition ; what if the higher the worse ? If I should conclude , that these doubts were conceived , nourished , and brought forth out of the wombe of faction , my Brother Burton with his complices would call it rayling ; therefore to avoid ( ifit be possible ) their unjust censures I onely say thus much , that both hee and all his brethren use an uncharitable way of arguing ( which is the best construction can be made of it ) for thus they may traduce any man , yea , any government , or any way of God at pleasure , with a detracting if . But here lies the mysterie ; the onely way my Brother Burton and his associats have to advance Independency , is to cloud the truth of God under darke expressions , and to eclypse those shining Lights , the faithfull godly Ministers throughout the kingdom , that the Lord hath set up in his Church , that so the people may not heare the voice of God speaking in them , by which meanes the understandings of many are wrapped up in error , obscurity and darkenesse , as in a mantle , and the ungrounded and unwarrantable notions of Independency are received by them as new Lights , they being very pleasing to flesh and blood : for man naturally hath an ambitious , boundlesse spirit , and from the beginning would not be limited by God himselfe , and the Independent doctrine being without bounds , teaching that it is free for men to beleeve , practise and preach abroad their severall opinions ( calling it liberty of conscience ) this is such a Light that all the sons and daughters of darkenesse will willingly walke in . But should the Independents obtaine their desire , whereever this new Light were set up , it would prove no other liberty then that which our first Parents Adam and Eve gained for their Rebellion against Gods command , which was to inslave themselves , and all their posterity to sinne and Satan ; and most certaine it is , that such a liberty as the Independents doe teach , seeke , and ( joyning with all sort of Sectaries and Libertines ) plead and stand for , would bring confusion , and an irrevocable curse on those Kingdomes and countries as shall tolerate so great abominations , and cause the Lord who hates Laodicean Lukewarmenesse in Religion , to spue them out of his mouth , Revel . 3. 15. 16. But before I passe on , I will take this liberty to say unto my Brother Burton , that whatsoever with his Ifs hee can plead against our Presbyters , may be said with much more , and with farre better reason against the independent Presbyters , if they be wicked or hereticall ; for from them there is no appeal for reliefe by any amongst them never so much wronged ; and therefore all such kinds of arguing against our Presbyters , is as altogether uncharitable , so but trifling . But my Brother Burton cals upon me to provide the people of the Land an honest and godly Presbyterie ; from whence it appeares that in his and his brethrens account all the Orthodox , faithfull and godly Presbyters in the Land at this day , who differ from the opinions they have lately received , are neither honest nor godly : for if there be ( as most certaine it is there are many ) honest & godly Presbyters provided for the people of the Land , it is strange he should speak in such a manner , as if they were altogether wanting , for so his words doe intimate ; for why otherwise should he make such a request to me of providing an honest & godly Presbyterie , if he or they beleeved wee had a godly Presbytery already , who notwithstanding he knows hath no power to performe it ? Truly all his Argumentations are very uncharitable , & no way beseeming a Brother ; for charity is kind , and thinks no evill , 1 Cor. 13. 4. 5. But were it so , that it might be taken pro confesso , that ther were not any such set up in this land , which were to deny the Suns shining at noon-day , did hee and the Independents indeed and in truth unfainedly desire such a Presbyterie should be set up & established , why do they not , as they falsly accuse them , first prove them to be enemies of Jesus Christ and his Kingdom , and not a godly and an honest Presbyterie , and then as in duty they are all bound earnestly in the first place seeke to God , that he would send faithfull Labourers into his Vineyard , and secondly to authority , that they would set up an honest and a godly Presbyterie , and give unto them full power that they may be as so many Angels to gather out of Christs Kingdom every thing that offends according to the Word of God , which all the knowing godly Presbyterians ( Ministers and people ) do heartilydesire , that so no truly tender consciences may be scandalized ? this I say were the duty of them all , and not to make suppositions & needlesse requests to those that have neither power nor authority to doe it . But the Independents are so farre from this , that they have made it their designe hitherto , to hinder the worke of Reformation by raysing up questions continually , as being alwayes unsatisfied ( and by seeking to stirre up the people in their preachings and Pamphlets against the Presbyterians ) and that meerly to oppose , retard and keepe off a setled government in the Church of God ( saying ) what haste is there of that ? and in the meane time they fish in our troubled waters , and yet their strongest and most effectuall baits wherewith they allure and catch the poore silly fishes , I meane the simple and unstable people , is this , to tell them that there is not any Church ▪ government setled , and that as they have waited many years already , so they may waite as many more , and be as farre off from Discipline , and a through Reformation as they now are , saying withall , if they doe waite to have a Presbyterie set up , what if it be not a good one ? and what if they have not power to gather out of Christs Kingdome every thing that offends ? affirming , that as it is uncomfortable , so it is absolutely sinfull , to live without the Ordinances , which amongst the Saints , and none but Beleevers in their Congregations they may injoy . Thus whiles the Independents doe labour and endeavour with all their might to oppose the setling of Church ▪ government , they make the want thereof the most powerfull and prevalent Engine and Argument to draw the people into their way ; and upon the occasion of these Interrogatories or queries , and of these Ifs and An ds of my Brother Burton , and his confedertes , I shall set downe some of their Independent practises well known to many thousands in this Kingdome besides my selfe , by which their ingratitude , both to God and men , and the rest●esnesse of these mens spirits will the better appeare to all such as are not blinded with a previous or prejudicated opinion . So that all men of discerning spirits by beholding their juglings and unwarrantable proceedings , may learne to shun them , and to take heed of them , and all their by-wayes . It is well knowne that in the time of the Prelats power , the removall of a very few things would have given great content unto the most scrupulous consciences : for I my selfe can speake thus much , not only concerning the conscientious Professors here in England , but the most rigid Separatists beyond the Seas , with many of which I had familiar acquaintance at home and abroad , and amongst all that ever I conversed with , I never heard them till within these twenty yeares desire any other thing in Reformation , but that the Ceremonies might be removed with their Innovations , and that Episcopacy might be regulated , and their boundlesse power and authority taken from them , and that the extravagances of the High Commission Court might be annihilated , and made void , and that there might through the Kingdom be a preaching Ministery every where set up . This was all that the most that I was then acquainted with desired in the Reformation of Church matters . Indeed within this sixteene yeares I met with some that desired a more full Reformation , and yet if they might have injoyed but that I now mentioned , they would have beene very thankfull to God and authority , and have sate downe quietly . But yet I say the extreamest extent of their desires , reached but to the removall of all the Ceremonies and Innovations , the taking away of the Service Booke , and the putting downe of the High Commission Court , ( which was called the court Christian , though it was rather Pagan ) and the removall of the Hierarchy , root and branch , and the setting up , and establishing of a godly Presbyterie through the Kingdome ; this was I say all and the uttermost Reformation that was required by the most scrupulous men then living that I knew ; yea , I can speake thus much in the presence of God , that Master Robinson of Leiden , the Pastor of the Brownist Church , there told mee and others , who are yet living to witnesse the truth of what I now say , that if hee might in England have injoyed but the liberty of his Ministry there , with an immunity but from the very Ceremonies , and that they had not forced him to a subscription to them , and imposed upon him the observation of them , that hee had never separated from it , or left that Church . This I can depose ; so that all men may see , the very dispensing with the ceremonies would then have given great content to the most austere professors ; how much more may any man suppose would they have sate down satisfied , if but the very ceremonies then might have bin removed ? Surely if the Prelats had not beene infatuated , and had they but in those things a little connived , and would have abated somewhat of their rigour , for ought I know , they might have never been questioned , but they might have injoyed all their honours and greatnesse , and whatsoever they could have desired , and that with the good liking of all the people ; had they I say but dispensed with those needlesse vanities , and had they but favoured honest and godly Ministers , and set up Lights , I meane good Preachers in the darke places and corners of the Kingdome , they would have beene beloved and reverenced of all men , and no man would have envied their Magnificence : yea , I am most assured had they but favoured good and godly men , the whole Kingdome would have beene their friends ; and whereas they all at last petitioned against them , they would have supplicated in their behalfe , that they might still have continued in their authority . But through their owne pride , and from an ambition of Lording it over their brethren , and by their tyrannicall practices , and licentious living they have brought confusion upon themselves , and beene one of the principall causes of all the miseries and distractions , and of all the blood-shed that the three Kingdomes are now involved with ; and for ought I can discerne our Independent Predicants now treading in their steps , and seeking to be the sole and onely men , and to set up their new government , which is more groundlesse then that of the Prelates , if the Lord of his infinite power and goodnesse prevent not their designe , they are in a way to bring a greater confusion upon both Church and State , and the three Kingdomes then that which were are all now imbroyled with : For I have heard them peremptorily conclude amongst themselves , making use of that saying of the Prophet , that they shall come to thee , and not thou to them , intimating by those words that they would never submit themselves to the Presbyterian classicall Government , but that all the Presbyters must come in , and yeeld to their Independency , so that if they persist in this their groundlesse Resolution , wee may never promise unto our selves any peace or quiet , unlesse they may have what they aspire to , and what they desire ; and for ought I know there will be no end of their demands , nor no limits or bounds to their requests and prayers : for they looke every day for new Discoveries , and expect yet more new Lights , saying , that all truths are not yet fully revealed , and therefore according to those they say they must act and be moved ; so that by this their doctrine , there will never be a period of their Grolleries . And all men may well perceive what an endlesse worke they that shall satisfie the Independents will have by their very beginnings : for to my knowledge the chiefest of them , and those that are now in highest esteeme in that Fraternity , and the chiefest men and women amongst them at the beginning of this Parliament , desired only the removall of the Ceremonies , and all Innovations , the removall of the Service Booke , the putting downe of the High Commission Court , and the taking away of the Hierarchy root and branch , and the setting up of the Presbyterian government as it was in other Reformed Churches , and especially in that of Scotland , and that was all they then desired ; and there were then none in all the Citie of London that more honoured the Scots to my knowledge then they : None that entertained them more nobly and freely ( which was the honour of our nation , and for their owne reputation ) none that frequented the ministery of the Scots more , and that more zealously attended upon it every Lords day whiles they were lodged by London-Stone then they : so that I doe not know at this time an Independent in London , especially of the principallest of them , that were not then great Lovers of the Scots , and very desirous of that Church-government here in England , that is now amongst them , and which they have since covenanted for ; yea , they were the only people that brought in the Scots ; and yet behold now the vanity and instability of all these men , there are not any , neither in Citie or Countrey that more maligne them , and are now greater enemies to them and the Presbyterian government then these very Independents , which makes me thinke that it will be as impossible a worke for the Parliament , or any authority to satisfie them , as it is impossible for the whole world to satisfie the avarice of a covetous man , one story of the which comes now to my mind , which I shall at this time relate upon my owne knowledge , which somewhat suteth with these times in which we live . I being one day some twenty yeares since at a great Festivity in a Doctor of physicks house here in London , he in a merry way related unto his guests how poore he came into this Citie , professing unto them all , that hee was not worth six pounds in the world , books and all at his first comming , and that being entertained into the Family of one of Queene Elizabeths Doctors of Physick to her person , for to teach his children , he so pleased the humour of the Doctor , that hee let him have the use of his Library , and communicated unto him the way of his practice , and gave him many excellent receipts , and hee remaining with him some five yeares , it pleased God to take away the Doctor , and his Apothecary taking a very good liking to him , perswaded him now to practise physicke in his place , wishing him withall to take some convenient house by him , promising him that hee would further him what hee could , saying moreover that he doubted not but by the prayse , and the goodreport hee would give of him , to make all those noble personages that were the Doctors Patients , to make use of him , and hee would do all this upon condition that he would use no other Apothecary but himself , to which the Doctor willingly condescended : whereupon the Apothecary so bestirred himself that he made good his promise and brought him into the greatest practice of any Phisitian then in London . But said he , when I first began to practice , being very poor , I thought with my selfe that if I could with all my pains and industry get but an hundred pounds a year to live upon when I am old , or leave to my Family , I would never aspire to greater riches : and truly , said he , within the space of one year I got above two thousand pounds and purchased an hundred pounds a year , and then I thought with my selfe if I could but make it up two hundred , I would rest contented without any farther ambition , and I within lesse then one years space made it up two hundred pounds per annum , and then I thought if I could but make it up five hundred pound a year , I would never desire any more , and within a few years ( said he ) I made it up five hundred pound a year ; and then I thought with my selfe if I could now but make it a thousand pound a year , I would then be content , and within a few years I had my desire : And then I thought with my selfe if I could make it up but two thousand pound a year , I would never desire any more wealth ; and before I was fifty years of age I had , saith he , purchased two thousand pound per annum : And then I thought with my selfe if I could make it up but three thousand pound per annum , I would then go build Hospitalls and rest abundantly satisfied ; and truly , saith he , within a few years I made it up above three thousand pound by the year and by my troth , said he , I am now as covetous as ever I was . This story did I hear that Doctor tell in way of gloriation to many : but it may very fitly be applyed to all the Independents , who are as boundlesse in their desires as this Doctor was in his covetousnesse ; Oh , said they a few years since , were but the Ceremonies removed with the Innovations of the Prelates , we would be satisfied ; and when they were gone , if now the service book were but cast out of the Church , we would be content ; and when that was cast out , now if the High Commission Court were put down we should then be satisfied ; and when that was put down , then if the Hierarchy were also taken away root and branch , then they should be satisfied ; now when that was gone , if we could have but the Presbytery established , and that it might be with us as in the other Reformed Churches , and especially that of SCOTLAND , then we should be abundantly thankfull to God and to the Parliament , and we would rest satisfied for ever . This , to my knowledge , was the language of all the Independents , and all that I now say can be proved by a cloud of witnesses . Now I desire all men to take notice how these men are satisfied with that Reformation which they so ambitiously desired , and that is now established amongst us , when God and the Parliament hath granted them all they could or did then desire and crave for , they are yet as unsatisfied and as covetous for more things as that Doctor was of more money , and so for ought I can conceive no state in the world will ever be able to satisfie their vast and unlimited wishes . I may truly say of them that an unthankfuller generation both to God and authority never appeared in the world , then these Sectaries are ; but withall I shall ever beleeve that their Teachers and Itinerary Predicants have been the principallest cause of all their unsatisfiednesse and of all their destractions , and especially those Homothumadon brethren , those fugitives that ran into Holland and New-England , that cowardly left the cause and since have brought over their New Lights here amongst us , to the darkning of the truth it selfe , and disordering of all things , and hindring of Reformation : for they chiefly and those that have followed those ignes fatuos that they set up , have occasioned these miserable distractions and divisions that are now every where through the Land , which if they be not speedily lookt unto , will bring desolation upon the three Kingdomes , all the which giddy-headed unstable men I can compare to nothing more fitly then to the Turkish Drums , Trumpets and Whissels , and that in two respects : They that have read but the History of the holy War shall find that when the Christian Princes went up to fight for the Sepulcher , that many thousands of them found graves there for themselves , which happened unto them not from any want of valour in the Christian Army , but by the disordering of their ranks and files : which gave occasion to the Saracens and those barbarous people to break in upon them , and to cut off many thousands of them , which disorder happened unto them upon this occasion . The European horses being onely acquainted with the warlike musick of their own holy Army , never having heard so much as the very sound either of the Turkish drums , trumpets , or whiffels those unsanctified instruments , when the Christians and Infidels came to joyn battell , and that the Armies approached one to another , the Turkish drums , trumpets and whiffels made such a barbarous noise in the European horses eares , that they were so scared and affrighted that they began to run like madd , and brake through all their own ranks and files and so disordered the whole Army that it was a thousand to one they had not been all cut apieces at the first encounter . And even after the same manner have the Homothumadon brethren and all their disciples those their I tinerary Tub ▪ men like so many drums , trumpets and whiffels with their barbarous noises out of their severall Tubs in the ears of poor creatures both men and women that were acquainted with no such musick as is exercised by those of this new militia , as that of the Congregationall way , and Church fellowship , and the Church way , and the way of the Saints , and of new Lights , and new borne Truths , and of the great things of eternity which come only out of the womb of God and from between his leggs , from Gods immediate hand , by providence not to be explained , just as a lot , &c. For these with many such are the noises they have now made in the ears of the poor silly creatures that they have made them all run madd to the disordering of all things and disturbing of the whole Christian Army that might by the power of God if we had been well ordered , without these divisions and distractions they have made amongst us , been able to have encountred with the whole host of Antichrist ; but there is this difference onely between the Turkish drums and whiffels and these our whiffellers , that they onely scared a few horses and made them madd , but these have made men and women madd amongst us with these their new and barbarous sounds of those their new wayes , and this is the first thing wherein they are like the Turkish drumms and whiffels . Now as those Turkish instruments though they made a terrible noise , yet there was nothing in them but wind and ventosity ; so these our whiffellers , & Tubmen , for the most part , if they be but looked into , there is nothing in them but meer vapour and frothy windiness which they spread & blow abroad in the ears of simple creatures , perswading them that the Presbyterians will be more tyrannicall and lordly then ever the Prelates were , and that they are an Antichristian brood , the sons of Belial , the enemies of Iesus Christ and his Kingdome , and that the people ought not nor cannot lawfully hear them or read any thing they write or publish to the world , perswading them that all they write or preach tendeth to nothing but the disthroning of Christ & the setting him up as a Pageant King ; but indeed all their indeavour is but while they cry hail Master , to crucifie him , as the wicked Jews did , and with such uncouth & barbarous noises as these they have put the people generally into such a heat , fury and distemper against all the Presbyterians , as they have deterred many thousands from so much as hearing them or coming into their presence , yea if at any time any of them but accidentally happen into their company they find them more barbarous towards them then the very Turks were toward many Christians even when they had them at their mercy ; and I am confident were the Presbyterians at their mercy , they would find lesse courtesie from them then from the very Saricens ; and I have very good grounds for this my perswasion from that insolent behaviour I my selfe have seen them exercise towards all sorts of Presbyterians , but principally towards the Ministers whō they affront often and that in an unseemly manner in the very Churches whiles they are in their Ministery , and when they go and passe along the streets and when they passe but through the Towns where there are any store or company of them ; for they cannot ride by any of them without some reproachfull calumny or other or without some uncivil behaviour which would not be tolerated in very barbarous Nations . And as for my selfe it is well known that neither mywife nor my poor children can passe quietly by the streets for them without some contumelious disgracefull language from them : and for my own particular though I never wronged them , I can truly say and can also prove it , that I have and that often , after they heard I differed from them in opinion , suffered such inhumanity from many of them , as scarce ever any man did from the most uncivilized people living , they usually railing of me to my face , and such of them as I know not nor never to my remembrance saw before their assaulting of me : and they that carry themselves fairest towards me , either puffe in my face as they passe by me , thinking to provoke me , or else make odd faces at me , or stare on me as I passe by them like a hare in a forme , and they have often professed unto many that they had as leive meet the devill as me , and said that I was a devill and that I looked like the devill and like Cain , and a thousand more such expressions they have upon all occasions in their mouthes concerning me , besides whatsoever they have published in their Pamphlets , and besides all their filthy and infamous language they dayly use to the defaming of me and mine . But this is not my condition alone , but so they deal with all those faithfull and godly Presbyterian Ministers , all which confirms me in my opinion , calling them ugly fellows , and bland asses , and Presbytyrants , and loading them with all manner of reproaches , so that they have made them all through the Kingdome so hatefull and infamous as they cannot dwell safely in their houses where there is any increase of them ; and all that I now write can sufficiently be proved by many witnesses , which passages of theirs towards all , corroborates me in my perswasion : So that by these barbarous practices of all the Sectaries and by these their uncouth sounds they have so scared and terrified the people that now the name of a Presbyterian is formidable to many , and it is enough to hinder any from preferment that they can but blast with the name of a Presbyterian ; and this also hath been generally observed , that there is scarse a man found to have been familiar at any time with any of the Sectaries , that if he once come to declare himself to stand for the Presbytery , that ever they could endure after , whatsoever love they seemed to shew towards him before that time ; yea it is farther observed , that scarse ever any man of what rank or fashion soever he were that familiarly conversed amongst them , that they have not afterwards betrayed or blasted their in honor and reputation , yea I could tell many a sad story to the deterring of any Presbyterian for ever being familiar with any of that brood , and I shall ever be able to prove that when some of them that were poor unlearned and obscure men , yet for their seeming holiness have by great Parsonages been entertained in their families , and whom they made their principall companions , these most ungratefull and treacherous fellows have made use of this their noble courtesie and humanity but to find how they stood affected to Independency , and when they perceived that they were not for their purpose , though otherwise they were very moderate men , yet they raised many infamous reports of them , yea they so blasted them in their honours as they could never after recover their reputation : So that it is a wonder to me that any cordiall reall and solid Presbyterian will familiarly converse with them , when they have dayly so many sad presidents of their treachery before their eyes . And for my part I wonder how any truly godly people dare come in their company , much lesse hear them preach , especially when they pray they may not be led into temptation , and when they have a speciall command to take heed of all seducers , and are so frequently in holy Scripture forewarned to decline all society with them ; which they according to Gods command ever ought to avoyd : For Saint Paul speaking of false teachers in the fifth of the Galatians , wishes that they were cut off , and in the first chapter of the same Epistle v. 8. 9. he faith there , that if an Angel from heaven should preach unto them otherwise then he had taught them , that they should account him accursed , therefore surely he would not have any of Christs Disciples and Scholers familiar with false teachers and such as teach the people otherwise then Paul had taught them , which all the Sectaries do , and much more ought all those that know the doctrines and practices of the Sectaries of our times , & how dangerous a generation of men they are in all respects , and how many have bin utterly ruined & undone in their souls and in their estates and reputations by their familiarity with them , to shun them . Surely it is a great provoking of God when they know his blessed Will , who hath said , Matth. 15. 7. Beware of false Prophets which come to you in sheeps clothing , but inwardly are ravening wolves , that yet they will not take heed of them but run after their preachments ; for this is indeed to thrust themselves into temptation and put themselves upon needlesse danger to the ruining of their own souls and the souls of those that are commit●ed to their charg in their families whom they are by Gods command to bring up in the nurture and fear of the Lord , and to instruct in the way of truth and righteousnesse , which the Sectaries do not walk in , ( as I have sufficiently proved both in my Epistle to the Reader , and through my whole Book ) and therfore ought to be shunned and declined whatsoever seeming holinesse and sanctimony they pretend to the World. Without doubt the deceivers in Pauls times were as seemingly holy as any of our Itinerary and Independent Praedicants ; for he saith of them that like the devill they transformed themselves into angels of light and appeared like the Ministers of righteousnesse ; and the Pharisees in Christs time seemed very glorious outwardly as our Saviour speaketh of them , and yet he commanded all his followers to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the leaven of Herod , he would have none of his Disciples fam●liar with them , but injoyns them all to take heed of their doctrines : And Saint Paul 2 Tim. 3. 1 , 2 , 3 , 4. saith , that the last times wil be perillous and dangerous times in regard of the false teachers that should then arise , and after he had made a description of them that they might know them , which in every thing agrees with the Sectaries of our times , he saith of those seducers , that they shal be lovers of themselvs , covetous , boasters , proud , blasphemers , disobedient to Parents , unthankful , unholy , without naturall affection , covenant breakers , false accusers , that is in the Originall , devils , incontinent , fierce , despisers of those that are good , treacherous , heady , high minded , lovers of pleasures more then lovers of God , having a form of godlinesse , but denying the power thereof . Now after he hath deciphered them he gives all men a speciall command to avoyd their society , saying , from such turn away , he injoynes all men not so much as to hear them : And compares them to Jannes and Jambres those sorcerers who withstood Moses , and says of those seducers that they also like them would resist the truth , they being men of corrupt minds and reprobate concerning the faith . Truly if ever the Scripture were fulfilled in any age of the world , it is now fulfilled in these our times , there being not any part in this whole description of those dangerous ▪ seducers that doth not in every branch of it agree with the Seducers and Sectaries of ours the most dangerous times in that regard that ever were in the world : And therefore it concerns all men that desire the peace of Zion and the welfare of their own souls , to take heed of them all , least they be found fighters against God : for we have precept upon precept to this very end given by all his holy Prophets , Christ and his blessed Apostles to shun them ; and Saint John in his second Epistle v. 10 , 11. saith there , speaking to all Christians , If there come any unto you that bring not the doctrine of Christ , entertain him not into your house , neither bid him God speed : for he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds . Now we know the Sectaries of our times teach such doctrines as were never taught by Christ nor any of his blessed Apostles ; how then dare any that have the name of Christians be familiar ▪ with such and entertain them in their houses ? especially when Saint Paul saith 2 Tim. chapter 2. verse 19. Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity or evill . And what greater iniquity and evil can there be , then to live in the open violation of Gods Commands ? for in the very same chapter hee exhorted them , ver . 16. 17. to shun prophane and vaine bablings , ( which is the practice of the Sectaries ) saying they would increase to more ungodlinesse , and that their words will eate as doth a canker , of whom is Hymeneus and Philetus , who concerning the truth have erred , saying , that the Resurrection is past already , and overthrow the faith of some ; he nameth some of the Sectaries there . Now here also we are commanded againe to avoid all evill , whether it be the evill of Doctrine , or manners , or evill company , and especially to avoid and shun all false Teachers , whose doctrines eat as a Gangrene , such as are the new Doctrines of our times , which are inferior to none for evill , impiety and wickednesse that were ever yet taught in the world , as yee may see in Learned Master Edward's Gangrena , and therefore it concernes all to shun the evill of all Sectaries company and fellowship ; and in the 6 , chapter of his 1. Epistle to Tim. verse 3. as if hee could never have given caution enough , hee saith there , If any man teach otherwise , ( then he and Christ had instructed Timothy to teach ) and consent not to wholesome words , even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ , and to the doctrine which is according to Godlinesse , from such with draw thy selfe . If Timothy which was a well grounded Christian , an Evangelist by his place , if he were againe and again by the Holy Apostle commanded to shun and decline the company and familiarity of all false Teachers and Seducers , how much more ought all other Christians that are so much inferiour to Timothy in all respects to take heed of all Sectaries , especially when we by our daily experience find how many they have misled and seduced ? Truly it hath been the great Rebellion of both Ministers and people in these our times , contrary to the command of God , to follow them , and to lend them not only their eares , but their Pulpits and Churches to preach in ; and doubtlesse whatsoever they may thinke , they have both of them much to answer for before God , as being the principall causes of the ruine , and misleading of so many soules , and if the State doe not speedily take order for the suppressing of all those wicked Deceivers , the times will grow more dangerous and perilous , not only in regard of the precious soules of many , but in respect also of the peace and quiet of the Land , for all things will speedily run to confusion , and the Sectaries will bring downe Gods judgements upon the Land , by their damnable and desperate Doctrines , and ruine upon the very Parliament , and the States of the Kingdome ; and there will one Iack Straw , or other , or one Wat Tyl●r , or some worshipfull Knipper or other be raysed up to be a deliverer of their Soveraigne Lord the people , out of the hands of all Prerogative , and King-creatures , and out of the hands of their owne creature the Parliament : The Lord awaken the Parliament , the Lords and Peeres of the Kingdome , and all the Governours through the same to stand now all upon their Guards , they having had so many Warning-Peeces , both in the Army , and in the Citie , both in Pulpits and Pamphlets what the Independents and Sectaries intend to doe . Were there no other Books but Iohn Lilburns , who knows the mind of his brethren , and the great concourse of people that follow him , and countenance him in his wicked practices , it were enough to awaken the whole Kingdom . But when wee daily heare and reade what Peters , Salt-marsh , Dell &c. those worthy Saints both preach and print , and what gallant Fellowes they have now with the sword in their hands , and what priviledges they clayme unto themselves , it is a matter of wonder and astonishment to me , that they are not all of them timely looked unto , and it stranges me most of all , that there should be any of those Sectaries permitted through the Kingdome to beare any office of charge committed unto them , or to have any other weapon offensive or defensive in their hands , then a bodkin or a thimble , which were the only iron many of them wore before these times ; for it is well known that all the Sectaries in the Kingdome within these six years , were as much afraid of the Artillery Guarden , and of the Military Yard , as they were afraid of a Cathedrall Church ; and the roaring of the Ordnance and Canons , and the noyse of a volley of shot , the sound of a Trumpet , and the beating of a Drum were as formidable Musick in their eares , as the noyse of a paire of Organs or Sackbuts , or the singing of the Choristers in Pauls , Westminster-Abb●y , or in the Kings Chappell , and yet now they can begin to talke of the sword in their hands . It is not good that such children as these are should be suffered to have such dangerous weapons in their fingers . It was not thought fit by our Fore-fathers , who were commended for their wisdome , that any Papists should sit in the Parliament , and our ever to be honoured Worthies now sitting in that great Conncell did not thinke it for the Kingdoms safety , that any Papist should bee of the Kings Councell ; and at the first sitting of the Parliament no Monopolists , or Gatherers of Ship-money , or Pattentees , or any such creatures , though they were lawfully chosen by the people were suffered to sit in Parliament , but were thrust out as being suspected they would prove bad instruments to the State ; and therfore I say notwithstanding the peoples election they were immediatly dismissed the great Councell , and the people were to make a new choyse . For my own particular I will speake my conscience in this point , and leave it to the judgement of all intelligible and wise men , such as love their Religion and Countrey , I see no reason that any Sectary whatsoever , whether Independent , Antinomian , Anabaptist , Seeker , &c. or any Fugitives that have ran over into Holland , or New-England to set up new Churches there , should be suffered to sit in the Great Councill of the Kingdome , which without doubt will with al their ability and power labour to maintaine their severall factions , all which tend to the ruine●of this State and Kingdom , and to the destruction of all our liberties ; and therefore I conceive they are as dangerous as ever the Papists were ; yea , the tenents of many of them are more destructive to all Government then ever those of the Iesuits were , or the most inveterate Papist that ever yet put pen to paper , and if the Papists were not suffered to sit in Parliament , I shall ever beleeve it will not consist with the safety of the Land , that any Sectary what ever should sit in the great Councell , especially it being daily perceived that all the Sectaries through the land have their incouragement from some of them to doe mischiefe every where , but if the people through the Kingdom will not humbly perition the Parliament , that all such with all Minors and Novices should be put out of the Parliament , it being proclamed by God himselfe as a curse to that people who have children for their Princes , Isa . 3. whether they be children in respect of years or discretion , then it is a sad presage of that kingdoms and countries ruin , where the people are not only divided amongst themselves , but their councels also , which they are through the whole land in all their Committees by reason of these Sectaries and Independents on all sides , who are the only fomenters of factions and divisions , and by this meanes have got all the wealth and riches of the Land into their own hands , with most of the strength ▪ with the ruine and miseries of many . The Lord open the eyes of all the people that they may timely see into their danger , and petition the Great Councell , that all the Sectaries may be removed out ofall offices , and Committees , and places of trust through the Kingdome . But if any of them shall brag of any service done for the State , it is well knowne they were not the only Actors in that imployment , but ten to one better Christians then themselves did the worke , though they have got all the honour from them , and have beene ever well paid for it , when the other wanted their monies , and therefore they having bin so well regarded already above others they may hold their peace , and be latisfied ; for it is well knowne that not one of a thousand of them before the warres begun was worth any thing , yet now they are knowne to be very rich and wealthy , when such as were borne to great estates , and were as serviceable to the Parliament , and faithfuller to it , with fewer selfe ends then they have beene , are many of them destitute of Livelyhood , and many more of them by the calumnies and lyes of the Independents and Sectaries , are now in disgrace , and all their service is forgotten , all the which things , besides the dangerousnesse of these mens Doctrines , should teach all men to avoid and shun both their teachings , and teachers , and complices , and abetters . This I thought fit out of my love to my countrey , and out of my desire of all mens salvation to speake . If my words shall find any esteeme , or any shall for sake the errors of their new wayes , by seeing the truth , I shall rejoyce and count my selfe happy ; but if men resolve to persist in their erroneous opinions and by-paths of ignorance , I will say with the Apostle , 1 Cor. 14. 38. He that is ignorant let him be ignorant still . THE Vtter Routing of the whole Army of all the INDEPENDENTS and Sectaries , with the totall overthrow of their Hirarchy , that new Babell , more groundlesse than that of the Prelates . THe Apostle Saint Paul in the fourth of the Ephesians , exhorting all Christians to walk worthy of the Vocation whereunto they were called , and to behave themselves as beseemed Brethren ; wisheth them with all lowlinesse and meeknesse , with long suffering and patience , to bear one with another in love : And useth a forceable Argument , to move them to brotherly kindnesse , Because , saith he , there is but one body and one spirit and one hope of Salvation : We all worship one God , we are all consecrated to him with one Baptisme , and we all hope for one and the self-same glory : Therefore as there is but one Lord , one faith , one Baptisme ; so be yee also of one minde , live in love , and keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of Peace . If ever there was need of this exhortation , there is now singular use of it , especially in this distracted Nation wherein we live . For the division of a Kingdom is the ruine of it : the division of a family destroys it : the division between brethren brings a confusion amongst them . It hath ever bin observed , That diversity of judgment & opinion hath made a difference in affection . The difference between the Iews and the Samaritans in points of Religion , made the Disciples desire , That fire might come down from heaven to end that controversie . The difference between us and the Papists , and the diversity of opinions between us , made them , because they could not bring down fire from heaven , fetch it out of hell , to blow up the Parliament ; and because that had not the desired effect , and the diversity of opinion stil remaining , makes the difference of their affection from us so great , that nothing can expiate their indignation against us , but the utter internetion and destruction of us all ; and this and this only , next unto our own sins , is the cause of all those fatall calamities this miserable kingdome is now imbroyled with . And therefore , all care and diligence among brethren , should be used to get a right understanding one of another , and to move them to bear one with another , and ever to call to minde the saying of Abraham to Lot , Gen. 13. Let not us contend together for we are brethren . I am most assured , if there were a right understanding of the differences that are now among brethren , there could not be such bitter expressions one against another , and such alienation of affection as is now too frequent and too well known to the common enemy . We are commanded , If it be possible , as much as lies in us , to be in in peace with all men , Rom. 12. 18. And the fruits of discord are set down in the 5th of the Galathians verse 15. If saith the Apostle ye bite and devoure one another , take heede yee be not consumed one with another , and in the 20. verse . Hatred saith the Apostle , varience , emulation , strife , heresies &c. and envyings are of the flesh , and they that do such things shall not enter into the Kingdome of God. A double misery follows those that do these things , misery here , and misery hereafter , it excludes men out of heaven . The contemplation of the sad condition , that will inevitably come upon that Land , Kingdome , and Church , where those variances and heart-burnings are , and where there is such diversity of opinions , and by reason of them , such difference in affection , put me chiefely upon this imployment , to see and try , if by any possible meanes , I could , by shewing wherein the difference between the brethren lyeth , be an instrument of a good accord amongst them : resolving with my self by Gods assistance whatsoever others do , to observe to the uttermost of my abilities , the royall Law , Jan. 2. 8. I do conceive , that if there were a right understanding one of anothers opinions , the world would wonder there should be such invectives in every pamphlet one against another , and such varience among those that are joyned together and that with nighest relations . The truth is , the mis-understanding of each others opinions and the mis-prisian of each others intentions , is the onely cause of this diversity of affection which to the dishonour of God and of our holy profession , and indeed to the disgrace of Christian Religion , every where too much venteth it selfe . And therefore as Abraham said unto Lot , so say I to all those that love the truth in sincerity and wish the Peace of Zion ; Let not us contend , especially with evill language , for we are brethren ; we have one father , we worship one God , we have one light , one truth , one way . And this I professe to all the world , That I contend not for victory , but for that ancient light , the faith once delivered unto the Saints , Iude 3. For that truth which we have heard from the beginning , 1 Iohn 2. ver . 14. for the old way , verse 6. The way the truth and the life , Ioh. 14. and for the honour of that Church against which the gates of hell can never prevaile ; in the which there are all those undeceiveable marks , as are able for ever to declare her to be built upon the foundation of Peter , in which the Gospell of Jesus Christ is purely and sincerely both preached and beleeved , and where the Sacraments are rightly administred , and in the which there is the true invocation of God , and all other requisites that make her a true Church ; and from which there is no just cause of separation . That I have dedicated this Treatise to no man , nor sought the patronage of any Authority , no mortall creature I presume , will blame me , knowing my Reasons . For writing in defence of the Prerogative Royall of Kings , against Papall Usurpation ; I dedicated my booke unto the King of great Britaine , France , and Ireland , supposing my selfe safe under his protection , whose honour and imperiall dignity I maintain : but all men know , what misery to the ruine of me , my wife , and many small children came upon me by it , through the power and exorbitant authority of the Prelates : so that for my duty and Loyalty to the King , I had a prison for my reward , and the scornes and contumelies of the world to comfort me in it . And when I most humbly petitioned his highnesse , complaining against the injustice done me , and most submissively supplicated his Majesty ( who was the Caesar to whom only I could then appeal ) that he would be pleased to grant me one of these humble requests , either That his Majesty would be pleased , but for one houre to give me a hearing of my just defence ; or if that could not be granted , That at lest he would then grant me that liberty in his Kingdome , that he denyed not to Crows and Kites and other Vermine , that I might provide for my young ones ; and if his highnesse would not be pleased to condescend unto either of the former just demands , That then he would give me leave to depart the Kingdom , and to go into any other Country where I might enjoy my Liberty and provide for my poore distressed family . I am most assured there was never a more equall Petition put up to any Prince in the world , yet his Majestie vouchsafed not to yeeld unto any of these my requests , nor to any other Petition put up either by my poor distressed wife or calamitous children ; so that without any wrong unto his Majesty , I may truely say , That Paul found more favour from a Heathen Roman Caesar , then I had from a Christian King , the defender of the faith . After I saw all possibility of releefe was now taken from me , I writ my Apology to the Bishops themselves , discovering unto them their unjust proceedings in their Courts , and their unrighteous dealings towards my selfe , and gave them my reasons of all I spake , without any offensive language and without any perturbation of Spirit ; and Dedicated this my Booke to the Lords of his Majesties Privy Councell , expecting ayde and reliefe from them , and indeed I had no hope of succour from any other , nor knew none to whom I could better apply my selfe , earnestly imploring their patronage ; but they , as it is well knowne , of Patrons became my unjust Judges , and after they had made me a spectacle to Men and Angells , and exposed me to the scorne and ludibry of the world , sent me into banishment , where I lived a living death and a dying life , and suffered such intolerable misery of all sorts , as would exceed beliefe to relate ; and I am most confident , if all the particulars were truly known , the world never heard the like , and there I had ended my dolefull life , had not God of his infinite mercy called this Parliament , and put into their hearts to redeem me from my captivity ; for the which incomparable favour , I do , as of duty I am ever bound , professe my selfe to the last drop of my blood to be their servant in the Lord , and in all their most just and honourable imployments ; I hope , with all fidelity to answer to the expectation of the world , and shall in life and death shew my selfe to be one , that without all by-respects shall ever aime at the glory of God ▪ the honour of them and my Country , and the common good of all : and shall never by Gods assistance do any thing in their concernment , that shall be unbeseeming a Man and a Christian . Now because by my sad experience , I found that I could neither from King nor Nobles have protection , I resolved never any more in Gods matters , to shroud my self under any covert but Divine Providence , and that , I with an assured confidence promise my self , especially when I now maintain the prerogative royall of the King of Saints , & King of Kings , the Lord Jesus Christ , Who is our Lawgiver , upon whose shoulders the government of his Church is laid , who is the wonderfull Counseller , the Prince of peace ; whose dignity and royalty in all this dispute between me and Mr. Walter Mountague , I have to the uttermost of my power maintained , under the shadow of whose wings I have ever found there is only safety ; whose blessed assistance , in all calamities , they that trust in him , may be most assi●ed of . His patronage now and his defence , is my shield , whose cause and the honour of whose kingdome at this time I contend for . And howsoever , in all my life , in all humane learning , I was never so wedded to my own resolves , but ▪ upon better reason I could easily be divorced from them , yet in Gods matters , if an Angell should come from Heaven and teach me , that , that there were another way to happinesse , then by that new and living way , the blood of Jesus Christ , who was the Lambeslaine from the beginning of the world , I would count him Anathema . Or if an Angel should tell me there were a new way of worshipping God , and serving him , then that which God himself hath set down in his holy Word , I would account him accursed ; for I have learned to believe God and Faith upon their word and bond , without any either Angelicall or Humane reason , or the authority of Coun●els and Fathers : and whatsoever I finde a warrant in Gods Word for , I have learned to cleave close to it against all humane reason , supposing such men none of Gods , nor Faiths , truest friends that will not believe them upon their own word and bond , except they have reason , humane authority , Councels , and Fathers , and ●aine traditions joyned with them for sureties . Again , if any man should go about to perswade me , that there were any other government established in the Church of God , then an Aristocraticall and a Presbyterian one , I should notwithstanding all humane reason to the contrary , submit my self to that kind of government , as being most confidently assured that it is warranted in Gods Word ; which all Christians are bound for ever to make the Rule and Square , both of our faith , manners and government . And here I must minde all those that shall read this Book , that this is no new opinion of mine , but that which I have once and again suffered for ▪ and if ever they have read my Elenchus religionis papisticiae , or my Flagellum pontificis , or my Apologie , or any of my Latine Books , in all those they will finde , that the cause of all my sufferings was this , and this only , That I maintained that all Churches were to be governed by an Aristocraticall and Presbyterian government , which in those Books I have clearly and fully ( through Gods assistance ) made good . Yea , in in my answer to the Bill of Information put up against me in the Star-chamber , they shall have some reasons I gave there , of this my tenent , to the Lords of his Majesties Hrivie Councell , and Judges in the Star-chamber ; so that I stand to my principles and am no starter . And if then amongst Gods people it was thought an opinion worthy the suffering for , and my Christian brethren deemed me worthy of honour for it , and afforded me their prayers , and shewed me and mine in all our distresses , many curtesies , when we found little favour from our own brethren ( which their humanity I must never forget , but with all due thankfulnesse for ever acknowledge ) I say , if then this my opinion was thought Orthodox , and worthy of their applause , I see no good reason why a truth then should not be counted a truth now ; for the Word of God out of which I had it , is the same , and if it were good then , it is good now : for the change of mens minds cannot change the truth , but it must be ever truth : but this my opinion I learned out of Gods Word then which shall be for ever , by his gracious assistance the warrant of my beliefe and practice . This Word therefore , I desire all my Christian Brethren , in the deciding of this question now agitated , amongst Gods people and his faithfull servants , concerning Church-government , to take into their hands , and with those noble B●reans to sit down and examine whatsoever shall be said on either side according to the holy Scrigtures : and I intreat them also to lay aside all passion ( which Religion has no need of ) and all vain-glory and bitternesse , which is a dishonour to our holy calling , and in the spirit of meeknesse , and with a Virgin judgement , not ravisht with any previous or anticipated opinion , to come and approach to the Altar of truth , and so consider and examine , which of those two opinions the Brethren on both sides now sacrifice themselves unto , be the offering that will best endure the firy-tryall , 1 Cor. 3. 13 , 14 , 15. viz. Whether the Presbyterian government Dependent , or a Presbyterian government Independent , both now laid upon the Altar , be the acceptablest service , and best pleasing sacrifice . This is granted on all sides , and of necessity it must be yeilded unto , that that Oblation is the best and most acceptable that is offered up by faith , without which it is impossible to please God , and that sacrifice only is offered up by faith , which is according to his Word , and has its warrant from his revealed will , which is the rule both for worship and the government of his Church we are to be guided by . The Brethren on both sides agree about the rule in deciding of this Coutroversie and make the written word the rule . They agree also about the materials , both acknowledging a Presbytery , the difference between them is only , about the mould and manner of the offering . I will therefore state the questions between us , and shew wherein we differ , and then set ▪ down my own opinion with my reasons , and after endeavour to be a Moderator for the determining of this unhappy difference , which hath been an occasion of so much rejoycing to the common Enemy . There is a two-fold question between us , they call the Presbyterians , and our Brethren they tearme Independents . The first is concerning the government of the Church , vi● . whether it be Presbyterian Dependent , or Presbyterian Independent . The second question is , concerning the gathering of Churches : but of that in its due place . The first question is whether many Congregations or Christian Assemblies ( commonly called Churches in our dialect ) in the which there are all the acts of worship , or all Ordinances , as the pure preaching of the Gospell , the due and right administration of the Sacraments , the true invocation of God , Discipline rightly executed , and all other performances , which make for the essence and form of a true Church , and in the which assemblies likewise , they have all such officers and helps of Government ▪ as in their severall places being rightly imployed , may serve for the edification of the same , and mutuall comfort and benefit of each other , and the preservation ofall , as Presbyters , doth preaching and ruling and Deacons , and all other Officers ; I say the question between us and the brethren is , Whether all these severall Congregations and Assemblies , may be accounted but one Church , or make but one Church within their Precincts ; and be to be under the government and rule of one Presbytery , or a Councell or Colledge of many Presbyters together , upon which , all the Congregations and severall Assemblies under it are to depend ; and to which in all weighty businesses they are to appeal , for any injury or conceived wrong , or scandall ; or for redresse of any abuses in Doctrine or manners , and for the exercising of Church-Discipline upon incorrigable and scandalous offenders ; as admonition for giving offence , suspension from the Ordinances till amendment and reformation ; or if obstinate , Excommunion ? Or whether every one of those particular Congregations , or Assemblies be they never so small , severally or considered a part , and by themselves be Independent ; that is to say , have full and plenary authority within themselves , without reference to this , or any other great Councell or Presbytery , for transacting or determining all differences about faith or manners amongst themselves , or for the redressing of any grievances or abuses , or the exercising of the power of Discipline or jurisdiction , and from the which there is no appeal for relief , though the parties offended conceive they have never so much injury or wrong done them ? In a word , whether two Presbyters with a slender Congregation , have an absolute kinde of Spirituall Soveraignty among themselves , in their own Congregation , and as ample authority as was given to the whole Colledge of the Apostles , Mat. 18. and to the whole Presbytery in the Church of Ierusalem ? And this is the first Question : Which that it may the better be understood , I will propound it in a simile , and that in a matter well known unto all men : The government of this famous City of London , and of many other great Cities through the Kingdome , are called Corporations , that is to say , majestracies ; and have in them a Secular or Civill Signory or Presbytry , who are invested with Anthority to exercise all acts of Government amongst themselves , as if they were an absolute Principality ; and this Government , by which all Citizens and inhabitants within their Precincts and liberties , are to be ruled and ordered , as occasion and necessity shall require , is committed to the Lord Mayors , Aldermen , and Common-Councell , who onely by such other Officers as they shall elect and choose , are to manage and exercise this government so , that all particular Citizens , and all the Companies of severall Tradesmen , are in their particular Wards , Precincts , and Fellowships , by their constitutions and Charter , to depend upon the determination of that Counsell , and are to make their addresses unto them upon any urgent occasion , or conceived wrong , or when it concerns the common good , and for the time to stand unto their arbitrement . Now then , the question between us and our Brethren is , as if there should arise a controversie in these severall Corporations ; Whether the Companies in each City where they all have their severall Halls , and their severall assemblies and meetings upon all occasions , and have all their Officers , and exercise also a power of ruling and jurisdiction among themselves be independent , that is to say , have plenary authority within themselves without reference to the Lord Mayor or Aldermen or Common-counsell , to determine of all things among their severall Companies , and from the which there is no appeale for reliefe ; though one be never so much injured and damnified by any unjust act ; and whether these severall Companies and severall Assemblies be each of them a severall Corporation or Magistracy , or all of them put together make but one Corporation , under one civill Presbytery consisting of the Lord Mayor , Aldermen , and Common-counsell ? This I thought fit to propound , that every one may the better understand the question . Now , as this kingdome of England hath its severall Porporations through all Pounties , and the which Porporations , although they have their severall Pompanies in them , yet are all dependent upon a civill Presbytery and Common-counsell , and every Company in them makes not a severall Porporation or Magistracy , or a severall City , but are all dependent upon the Common-counsell or Presbytery , for the better ordering and governing of them in all their common affaires , and for the redressing of abuses , and taking away and removing of common grievances , and have their severall appeals to the Common-counsell , the Lord Mayor , and Aldermen ; and if they finde no justice there nor satisfaction , have their redresse and appeal to some generall Court , or some supreame judicature , as to the Parliament of the Kingdome , who redresse and determine all things according to the lawes and constitutions of the whole Kingdome . So in the Kingdome of the Lord Jesus Christ , which is his Church , all these severall Churches which we reade of in the holy Scrupture of the New Testament , are so many severall Corporations and Associations , all the severall congregations and assemblies as so many severall Companies in them , depending upon a Presbytery or Common-counsell and Colledge of Pastors and Rulers , all making up but one Church in every one of their jurisdictions and severall Precincts , though they be consistent of never so many severall Assemblies , according to the greatnesse of the Cities or Townes wherein they are , or according to the severall Hundreds or Divisions assigned to each Presbytery , and all these severall associations to be groverned by their severall Presbyteries for the better ordering and preserving of the same , to the which every particular man , as well as any Assembly or Congregation , may have their appeal for the redresse of any abuses or enormities , and if they finde themselves wronged there , then they have appeals to some other higher Presbytery or Counsell of Divines for relief and justice ; and both they and all other of the severall Corporations to be governed and regulated by the Laws and Statutes given by Christ himself , the onely Head and King of his Church , according onely to whose laws they are to be governed and ruled for the common good and preservation of the whole Church , divided into those severall Jurisdictions , Corporations or Precincts , in imitation as neer now as may be of the Churches of Ierusalem , Ephesus , Corinth , and Galatia , &c. and whose lawes alone must be the rule for the ordering of all their government , doctrine , and manners . I have premised this I have now said , that all men may the better understand the state of the Question and controversie in hand . Now then , if it shall be made appear out of the holy Scripture , That all the severall Churches we have mention of in the New Testament , were all particular corporations or associations , and governed by a Common-Councell of Presbyters , or by a Presbyteriall government in each of them ; and that there were many assemblies and congregations in those severall Churches , and all of them had their distinct Officers amongst themselves , in the which likewise they had all the Acts of Worship amongst themselves , and did partake in all ordinances of Church-fellowship , especially in the preaching of the Word , Prayer , & in the Sacraments of Baptism and the Lords Supper , and yet made but one Church , and were all governed by a common-counsell of Presbyters , or by a common Presbyterie within their Precincts , then it must of necessity follow , that as the Mother-churches were first govern'd , all the Daughter-churches to the end of the world must be so govern'd , and according to that rule that is set down in the Word of God. So then , the question in hand between us and our Brethren is , Whether , there were many Congregations and Assemblies in any of those primitive Churches , as in that of Ierusalem the Mother Church , and many Elders or Presbyters in that Church , and all other Officers ; and whether all those Congregations and Assemblies were one Church , and those Presbyters and Officers all of them Elders and Officers of that one Church , and whether all those Congregations and Assemblies were under one Presbytery ? Which is the opinion of the Presbyterians , and the contrary that of the Independents . This I say is the question between us and our Brethren . Now then if it can be proved , that there were more Beleevers in the Church of Jerusalem then could all meet in one place , or in one congregation for all acts of worship ; and if it can be evidently elucidated , that there were severall assemblies and congregations in the Church of Jerusalem , & yet so , as they made but one church for government ; then our Brethren must of necessity acknowledge that the church of Jerusalem , was govern'd by a common-councell of Presbyters , or was presbyterially governed . Neither did our Brethren ever yet undertake to prove , that in case there were many Assemblies in Jerusalem , they had severall and independent presbyteries , neither it they should go about to prove , could they do it . And therfore we may conclude , and that with very good reason and warrantable authority , that as the Mother-church , the church of Jerusalem , in her greatest glory was govern'd , so all other Churches must likewise be regulated to the end of the world ; For out of Zion shal go forth the Law , & the Word of the Lord from Ierusalem , Isay 2. v. 3. We must have both our Law from thence , and our paterne of government . And out Brethren do make the Church of Jerusalem the patern of their proceedings . Now that all things may be handled in good order and in a methodicall way , I will reduce the whole Disputation concerning the first Question into these foure Propositions , and prove them in order . The first , That there were many Congregations and severall Assemblies of Beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem , in the which they enjoyed all acts of worship , and all the Ordinances amongst themselves , and did partake of all acts of Church-fellowship , especially of preaching , and in the administration of the Sacraments and Prayer , and that before the Persecution we reade of , Acts 8. v. 1. The second , That all these Congregations and severall Assemblies made but one Church . The third , That the Apostles and Elders governed , ordered , and ruled this Church , joyntly and by a Common-counsell and Presbytery . The fourth , That this Church of Ierusalem and the government of the same , is to be a pattern for all severall congregations and assemblies in any City or vicinity to unite into one Church ; and for the Officers of those congregations to governe that Church joyntly in a Colledge or Presbyterie . But before I come to the proof of these particulars , it will not be amisse in generall to take notice that all the Churches we read of in the New Testament , were Aristocratically and Presbyterially governed , and were all dependent upon their severall Presbyteries ; and that the ordering and managing of that government lay onely upon the Presbyterie ; and was their peculiar who had the power of the Keyes . Now Christ gave the Keyes to the Apostles and Presbyters only , and whatsoever the Apostles did in ordering and setling the government of the Church , they did by Christs command ; and that order and constitution they set down in the Church , was to be perpetuated and continued to the end of the world . And the violating of this order and divine constitution , was the occasion of the rise and growth of Antichrist , and the very cause of all those confusions that the Christian world hath for these many generations been wearied and annoyed with ; and the occasion of all those Schismes , Sects , and Heresies the world hath ever swarmed with : and the re-establishing and reducing of it to its pristine constitution , will be a means not only of removing all scandall , and taking away of all division amongst Brethren , and be a singular means also of establishing a flourishing government in Church & State , and for the procuring of the blessings of God upon the three Kingdoms , but a way also of ruining that Man of Sinne , and of making an absolute Reformation through the whole world . Let us therefore first take notice what government was established by God in all the Primitive Churches , Acts 14. 23. And when they had ordained them Presbyters ( for so it is in the originall ) in every Church , and had prayed with fasting , they commended them to the Lord , on whom they beleeved . Here are two things observable . The first that the government of the Church was committed to the Presbyters . The second , that the Presbyteriall government was that government that was established in every Church ; for so saith the Holy Ghost , when they had ordained them Presbyters in every Church . This was Gods ordinance , Acts 20. 17. And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus , and called the Presbyters of the Church . Here we see there were many Presbyters in one Church . And Verse 28. Take heed therefore unto your selves , saith the Apostle , and to all the flock over which the Holy Ghost hath made you Bishops , to feed the Church of God which he hath purchased with his own blood . Here , as we may observe , that in Gods Dialect , Presbyters and Bishops were all one , so likewise is evident that the Church was committed to their government : this Church therefore of Ephesus was under a Presbytery , and was to be regulated joyntly by them by a common-councell of Presbyters . And Paul to Titus , chap. 1. vers . 5. For this cause , saith he , life I thee in Creet , that thou shouldest put in order the things that are wanting , and ordaine Presbyters in every City , as I appointed thee . If any man be blamelesse , &c. for a Bishop must be blamelesse as the Steward of God , &c. From this place likewise we may take notice of the parity between Presbyter and Bishop , and that the Presbyterian government was that way of ruling that God appointed , not in one City onely , but in every City , and that these Presbyters were the Stewards in Gods house , which is his Church , 1 Tim. 3. and had the government of those Churches in every City laid upon them , which they were joyntly to governe and order by the common-counsell of Presbyters . And Paul in his first Epistle to Timothy , chap. 5. v. 17. Let the Presbyters , saith he , that rule well , be counted worthy of double honour , especially they who labour in word and doctrine . Still we ever observe , that the rule and government of the Church was in the Presbyters hands . And the Author to the Epistle to the Hebrews , ch . 13. 7. Remember , saith he , them that have the rule over you , who have spake unto you the Word of God , whose faith follow , considering the end of their conversation . And vers . 17. Obey , saith he , them that have the rule over you , and submit your selves , for they watch for your soules , as they that must give an account , &c. And in vers . 24. Salute all them , saith he , that have the rule over you , and all the Saints . Here againe he injoynes all the Churches to yeild obedience , and to submit themselves unto the government of the Presbyterie , shewing them that it is their place to obey , and for their Ministers to rule ; and that so long as they command in the Lord , they out of conscience ought to obey them , and that for a double reason ; For they watch , saith he , for your souls , and they must also give an account of their stewardship . And in 1 Peter 5 , 1 , 2 , 3. The Presbyters that are among you , saith Saint Peter , I exhort , who am also a Presbyter , and a witnesse of the sufferings of Christ , and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed ; feed the flock of God which is among you , taking the over sight thereof , not by constraint , but willingly , &c. neither as being Lords over Gods heritage , but being examples to the flock . And Saint James chap. 5. ver . 14. Is any among you sick ? saith he , let him call for the Presbyters of the Church . He doth not say of the Churches , but of the Church . So that the Presbyterian government was in every Church , and every Church was to submit it self unto the Presbytery . And in Acts 15. it is said , that Paul and Barnabas went up to the Apostles and Presbyters , &c. And when they came to Ierusalem they were received of the Church ( it is not said of the Churches , but of the Church ) and of the Apostles and Presbyters , &c. and Verse 6. And the Apostles and Presbyters came together to consider of the matter , &c. and Vers . 22. Then pleased it the Apostles and Presbyters with the whole Church , &c. and wrote Letters by them after this manner . The Apostles , and Presbyters , and Brethren . And Acts 21. 17. And when we were come to Ierusalem , saith Saint Luke , the Brethren received us gladly . And the day following Paul went in with us in to Iames , and all the Presbyters were present . From all which places , and many more which might be produced , it is most clear and evident , that in all Cities there was a Presbytery , and that the Presbyters had the power of order , namely , of preaching , and the power of jurisdiction , that is of ruling , which was ever to be exercised with others , and not alone ; and that consisted in admitting of members , and in conventing men before them upon occasion , in admonishing if any offended , in suspending them from the holy Communion till reformation or amendment ; and if they continued obstinate and incorrigble , in excommunicating and casting of them out of the Church , and upon repentance , in receiving of them in again , and in ordaining of Officers , and in appointing the times of meeting , and the places where . And within these limits , as I conceive , is all the power given to the Presbyters terminated , and this they are by Gods Ordinance joyntly and by the common-counsell of Presbyters to exercise , and it peculiarly belongeth unto them ; and therefore the Presbyterian government was the order of ruling and governing all Churches , that God himself established , and is to be continued unto the end of the world ; neither do I ever read , that the people or the congregations were joyned with them in their commission , or had any power given them of ruling . For Saint Paul professeth of himself in 1 Cor. 14. 37. that whatsoever he writ in his Epistles Were the Commands of the Lord. And the same may be said of all the other Apostles . Now Paul writ to Titus , that the Churches in all Cities should be governed by a Presbytery . And in the first Epistle to Timothy he commands Timothy again and again in chap. 5. vers . 21. and in chap. 6. v. 12 , 13. I give thee charge in the sight of God , saith he , That thou keep this Command without spot , unblameable till the appearing of our Lord Iesus Christ . Here Timothy and all Ministers in him , are to the end of the world bound to maintain that government unblameable that was appointed by the Apostles ; and that was the Presbyterian government , and the ruling of all Churches by joynt consent , and a common counsell or Colledge of Presbyters ; so that nothing ought to be done or transacted of publick concernment without their joynt and mutuall accord or agreement and common consent of the Presbytery . And therfore when Diotrephes assumed unto himself and his particular congregation a power and authority to rule according to his will and pleasure , without the consent of the Presbytory , & opposed Iohn the Presbyter , he sharply reproves his proceedings and signifies to the Church Epist . 3. That when he came he would remember his words , and teach him how to prate against the Presbytery with malicious words ; For he ( saith S. Iohn ) contenteth not himself only to prate maliciously against us , but he will not receive his brethren , nor suffer others , but casteth them out of the Church ; which is an evill thing in him ; saith Saint Iohn : But for you , saith he , speaking to the Church , follow not that which is evill but that which is good . It was evill in him to assume unto himself alone , and his particular Congregation , that power that belonged unto the colledge or councell of Presbyters , and was to be moderated and exercised onely by the conjoynt and common consent of the Presbytery . For God had appointed , that his Church should be governed by a Presbytery ; and Diotrephes would have his Congregation Independent , and have an absolute jurisdiction within it self , Which , saith Saint Iohn , is an evill thing . So that I cannot but wonder our brethren the Independents should call Diotrephes the Patriarch of the Presbyterians , as one of them did to me not long since ; whereas if the place be du●ly weighed and considered ; it will appear that he was the first that opposed the Presbyterian Govenment , and for the which he was by Saint Iohn sharply reproved , and in him , all that follow his steps , and will not submit themselves to the Presbytery which is Gods Ordinance , and that will not receive the brethren into the Churches , but upon their own termes and conditions . But of this businesse when I come to the second Question . In the mean time I must here make reply to what Mr Knollys by way of Answer hath to say to this Argument drawn from Diotrephes his practise which was occasioned as I related before , by reason of a discourse between me and an Independent , who affirmed , That Diotriphes was the patriarch of all the Presbyterians : which opinion of his Mr Knollys doth seem to favour , as by his words may appear , but I hope to make the contrary more evident then yet it hath been , viz. That Diotrephes was the primate of the Independents , and of all those of the congregationall way . But first I will set down Mr Knollys his words at large , to take away all occasions of their calumniating tongues , who ordinarily use to say , That we keep from the world their Arguments , that we may the better delude the people , and hold them in ignorance . His words therefore by way of answer to that Argument are these . Now let the reader judge ( saith he ) whether the Doctor be not much mistaken in his commentary exposition and application of this place of Scripture . And let me give you to understand , that Saint Iohn saith verse the 9. I wrote unto the Church . But seeing no mention is made of any particular congregation , how can the Doctor so confidently affirme that it was his particular congregation ? Now the reader may see plainly , that the Doctor can expound those brethren and their Elders or Presbyters , which the Scripture calls a Church , to be a particular congregation . And what it was which Saint Iohn had written to the Church is not in this Epistle , nor in any other Scripture delcared , except it was , to receive those brethren which he saith ver . 8 ought to be received , and ver . 10 whom Diotrephes would not receive , how then doth the Doctor say that Diotrephes assumed that power to himselfe , which belonged unto the Colledge and Councell of Presbyters , without whose joynt and mutuall agreement , and common consent nothing ought to be done or transacted of publike concernment ? is the receiving of brethren , or casting out of brethren a power which belongs to a colledge of Presbyters , and neither the one nor the other may be transacted by the Elders and Brethren of a particular congregation unlesse the Court or common-councell of Presbyters conjoyntly consent unto it ? Let it be also considered , that D otrephes opposed the brethren and forbad them that would have received those who Saint John saith vers . the 8. we ought to receive , yea and cast them out verse 10. of the Church , to wit , excommunicate them . Doth it hereby appear that Diotrephes would have his congregation Independent , and have an absolute jurisdiction within it selfe ? No , but Diotrephes would lord it over the Church , and have the preeminency above his brethren , whether fellow-Elders or fellow Saints . Diotrephes loving the primacy amongst them , he would be the Primate and Metropolitan of the Church , and have the preeminency of all the Presbyters in it , and brethren of it . The Doctor could have urged this Scripture against the domineering Prelates , and why should he marvell , that his brethren should now urge it against the Court of Presbyters . It is confest that Diotrephes did that which was evill in usurping authority over the Church and those brethren he cast out of the Church ; But that he was the first that opposed the Presbyterian government , or that he did affront a Court or common ▪ councell of Presbyters , it is more then I know , or the Doctor can prove . For had Diotrephes done so , why was he not convented before them ? Surely the Apostle Saint Iohn would rather have written to the colledge of Presbyters ( if there were any such ) then to the Church , or in writing to the Church , would tather have sent him a summons to appear at some consistory before the Court and common-councell of Presbyters , then to warne them to take heed of hi● evill , that they did not follow it . And doubtlesse St John would have writen thus : Diotrephes loves to be a Primate amongst you , wherefore when the Presbytry , that is to say , the Magistracy or Signiory of grave , solid , learned , religious , and wise Divines and Ministers come to keep order , and meet together in a Court and common-councell , I will remember his deeds , and informe , or complain to the Court and common-councell of Presbyters , that he prates against us ( the Presbyters ) with malicious words . But the Apostle Saint Iohn ( did not know any Court or Common-councell of Presbyters , neither Classicall nor Synodicall , to appeal unto ) Nor can the Doctor make good those appeals he mentioneth page 10 ▪ to be according to the Scripture of truth , to wit , that every particular man , as well as any assembly or congregation , may have their appeals to the Presbytry of their Precinct , hundred , or division under whose jurisdictions they were , and if they found themselves wronged there , that they have appeals to some other higher Presbytry or Councell of Divines for releefe and justice . I only aske the Doctor how he can prove those appeals by Scripture ; and if he could , whether that higher Presbytry or councell of Divines ( especially if they may say the Holy Ghost and wee ) be not as Independent as these brethren and their churches , against whom the Doctor hath written . And if so , then such a high Presbytry or councell of Divines , is not Gods Ordinance by the Doctors own confession and affirmation . Therefore the Apostle writes to the Church or particular congregation whereof Diotrephes was a Member and an Elder , whom he knew had power to judge him as well as the Church or particular congregation of Corinth had power to judge them that were members therein , 1 Cor. 5. 12. 13. and therefore might as warantably admonish Diotrephes as the Church of Colosse might Archipus : Coloss . 4. 17. And if nothing of publike concernment ought to be done or transacted without the joynt and mutuall accord or agreement , and common consent of the Presbytry ; Iohn the Presbyter would not have transgressed so farr , as to take upon himselfe this authority over Diotrephes to tell the Church of his faults , and to say , he would remember him and sharply reprove him , and teach him to prate against the Presbytry with malicious words , which belonged unto the Court and common-councell of Presbyters . But I shall have a just occasion to say more touching this matter , in the answer unto the third question , and therefore passing by the objection with his answer mentioned page 19. to the 29. unto its due place . I shall desire seriously to consider the Doctors proof of his first proposition , which he laboureth first by producing such Scriptures , as he conceiveth make for the manifestation of the truth , and from thence frames and formeth his arguments . Thus Mr Knollys in way of reply speaketh to my argument concerning Diotrephes and of his intention what he will do in the insuing discourse to all the other arguments . I have here set down his words at large , omitting only the greek and latin texts which he School-boy-like scribleth , to little other purpose than to shew his own vanity , and to perswade the ignorant people , that he is some-body in the Greeke and Latine tongue ( which kind of learning notwithstanding the most of his fraternity generally despise and contemne ) I have therefore omitted them , especially having learned this lesson from Saint Paul , 1 Cor. chap. 13. vers . 19. rather to speak five words to the understanding of the people , that I might teach others , then ten thousand words in an unknown tongue . And truly unlesse there be some controversie concerning the Interpretation or about the text ( as there is not here ) I conceive it the greatest folly in the world ; writing in the vulgar tongue and for the common benefit of all men , to insert sentences either of Greek or Latin , except very varly ; for it but pudders the reader that is not skilled in the languages , neither do we finde that it was the custome either of the holy Prophets , or any of the ancient Greek or Roman fathers in all their Writings or Sermons , to use any , but their vulgar tongue without it were very seldom and that with interpretation . I say therefore , those flashes being excepted I have punctually set down all that he had to say against any of my arguments both here and every where , that neither he nor any of his party may complain , that I had not set down their words in their full strength , and so might fall into the same condemnation with him , who hacketh and minseth my arguments at pleasure , picking and choosing what he thinks himself best able to deal with , either wholly omitting the other or slighting of them which is the ordinary method both of Mr Knollys , J. S. and my brother Burton and all the Independents , wherein they deal not fairly with me , nor ingenuously nor candidly with the people : for in so doing they delude them and meerly play the juglers . This large discourse of Master Knollys , if it be well weighed , hath but little substance in it , it consisting of absurdities and contraditions and flat denyalls of that which he often granteth . In breife , if the reader will but duly consider every passage of his answer , with whathe grants in the third and the 11. pages of his pamplet , he will speedily perceive , that whiles he labours to confute others , he gives a fatall blow to his own cause , and overthrowes that opinion which both he and all those of the congregationall way labour to maintaine , and withall by the examination of the particulars he will the better discerne into the futility of Master Knollys and the vanity of those of his party , that beleeve & take every word of his , for an Oracle though it be never so distructive totheir own cause . The sum of this his answer is this , that I am mistaken in my comentary exposition and application of this place of Scripture . These are his words . It will not be amisse therefore , in the first place to take notice what he denyeth in his answer , and what he affirmeth , with the reasons of both , that the reader may the more easily perceive the vanity of error and the force and efficacy of truth . First he denyeth that Diotrephes would have had an absolvte jurisdiction within himself and have had his Congregation independent , and that he was the first that opposed the Presbyterian Government , or that he had any particular congregation : He deneyeth also that Saint Iohn knew any Court or Common counsell of Presbyters either Classicall or Synodicall to appeale to his time . The reasons of his denyals are these . First , because saith he , there is no mention made of any particular congregation Diotrephes had . Secondly , it is not declared what it was that Saint Iohn had writ unto the Church in his Epistle nor in any other Scripture , except it were to receive those brethren which Diotrephes would not receive and therfore , how saith God can the D● affirme that Diotrephes asmed theypower to himself which belonged unto the Colledge and councell of Presbyters & c ? and to prove that Diotrephes was not the first that opposed the Presbyterian government , he saith , had he done so , then he should have been convented before them , which he was not ; and therefore he did not oppose a Court or common Councell of Presbyters . Besides Saint Iohn would then have wrot rather to the Colledge of Presbyters ( if they had been any such ) than to the Church , or in writing to the Church would rather have sent him a summons to appeare at some Consistory , than to warne them to take heede of his evill , that they did not follow it , and doubtlesse he would have written thus . Diotrephes loves to be a Primate amongst you : therefore when the Presbytery comes to keepe order , and to meet together in a Court common Councell , I will remember his deeds , and informe and complaine to the Court that he prats against us with malicious words . Now when neither of this was done by the Presbytry , nor by Saint ▪ Iohn , it is manifest that Diotrephes did not oppose the Presbytry , and that Saint Iohn then knew not of any Court or common councell of Presbyters either Classicall or Synodicall to appeale to in his time . And then in the third place he putteth me upon the proofe of those appeales I made mention of page 10. affirming that I cannot make them good : And in the last place , he afferteth that Saint Iohn w●it to the Church and particular congregation whereof Diotrephes was a member , and that , that congregation had power to judge of him , and the reason of this his assertion , is , because saith he , this Church had the same power over Diotrephes , that the Church of Corinth and that of Colosse had over their members . Having thus briefly set down what Master Knollys both denies and affirmes with the reasons of each , I shall now answer to every severall branch in order ; and if I be the more large in my reply , I crave pardon , in regard it is not only a businesse of publicke concernment and about the principle question now in debate , but that it will give the more light to the wholo following discourse . For answer therefore to his reason of my mistake , in my commentary exposition and application of that place of Scripture viz : that there is no mention made of any particular congregation that Diotrephes had , I say , there was no neede of making any mention of it : For if there were many Presbyters in all the Primative and Apostolicall churches , and in that Church by name in which Diotrephes was Presbyter as it is evident out of all the places above quoted as out of the 14. of the Acts and the 15. and 20. and 21. of the same booke and the Epistle of Paul to Tit. Chap. 1. ver . 5. and the 1. Epist . o● Pet. chap 5. ver . 1. 2. 3. and the 13. of the Heb. and Saint Iames the 5. and the 3. Epistle of Saint Iohn which Master Knollys himself acknowledgeth and if it be also apparently evident from all those severall Scriptures , ( as it is ) that those Presbyters were fixed with in their particular jurisdictions , with a speciall charge given them in common , to looke unto the flocks committed unto their charge , and to feede the Church of God which he had redeemed with his precious blood , which word feede includes the Keys , to wit , the power of order and preaching and the authority of jurisdiction and rule , and from the which charge they were not to depart , as too too many of the Independent Ministers now amongst us dayly do , leaving the poore sheepe in the wildernesse : I say when all these things are evident out of the holy Scripture it necessarily followeth , when Diotrephes was an Elder and Presbyter in that Church Saint Iohn writ unto , which Master Knollys confesseth , that he had there his particular congregation , and therfore there was no neede of making any mention of it : for very common reason will dictate thus much , to any man , that if any great grasier have ten or twelve thousand sheepe and many severall walks and places of pasturage to feed them in , and hath severall pastours to looke unto them all , as not a few Shephards can feede ten or twelue thousands sheepe , and gives them all a charge in common of looking to his sheepe and feeding them , although all those severall pastours are to have a generall care of all those sheep that have his marke upon them , and that are within the limits of his severall walks and grasing places , yet it is to be understood , that every one of them hath his severall flocke committed to him in speciall for he must not be idle , over the which he is to have the particular inspection and care for the well ordering of it , with this limitation , that he may not wrong the flocke , or do any thing contrary unto his Masters pleasure , or to the dammage or prejudice of his other fellow Pastours or their flocke : All this I say , good reason will dictate to any rationall man , and dayly experience will confirme it . In the same manner things were ordered , in the primitive and Apostolicall Churches , all whose Elders and Pastours in them , had the charge of the severall flocks committed to them in common , all the which they were to governe communi consilio presbyterorum as it is by all the Independents themselves confest : for all those Churches were Aristocratically and Presbyterianly governed : and therefore according to the wisdome and common councell of their Elders , this Presbyter had the charge of the sheepe of such a ward or walke committed unto his care ; and that Elder had such a Circuit committed unto his charge , and a third Elder had such a precinct committed to his cure , and so of the rest , with this proviso alwayes , that all things of publicke concernment , and that tended to the common good both of sheep and Pastours should be ordered by the joynt and common councell of the severall and respective Presbyters in an orderly and well regulated way : for all things in the Church were to be done in order and decency and uniformitie which could never have been , if every Pastour and Presbyter and every particular congregation under them severally would have governed as pleased themselves , without any reference to the Colledge or common counsell of all the Presbyters , which was the failing of Diotrephes here , for which he was greatly blam'd by Saint Iohn . And that all those Churches were to be governed by their severall Presbytries , and that the people were not to intermeddle with the government of them Master Knollys himselfe in the third page of his pamphlet and in the eleventh of the same doth accord , who citing my words in my introduction to my booke deduceth from them foure conclusions , which I shall by and by set downe after I have related the grounds of them . Before ( saith he ) the Doctor comes to proove his four particular Propositions , he saith it will not be amisse in generall to take notice that all the Churches we read of in the new testament were aristocratically and Presbyterially Governed , and were all Dependent upon the severall Presbyters , and produceth divers places of Scripture to prove the same , and two sheets are spent wholly in proving thereof , from the 12 page to the 29. These words Mr Knollys quoteth out of my book . Now hear his answer . All which ( saith he ) should it be granted , onely proves . First , that in every City or Church there was a Presbytery , For they Ordained them Elders in every Church , Act. 14. That thou Ordain Elders City by City , Tit. 1. v. 5. Secondly , that as there were Apostles and Elders in the church of Jerusalem , so there were Elders , in the church of Ephesus Acts the 20. ver . 25. and in the church of Corinth and in the church of Galatia and Philippy , &c. Thirdly , that those severall churches were dependent , upon their several Presbyteries , and they were to obey them who had the rule over them , Hebr. 13. 7. 17. 24. Who were their guids , obey your guids . Fourthly , that this Presbyterian church Government God hath appointed as his Ordinance to be continu'd to the end of the World , the which whosoever resisteth , resisteth the Ordinance of God. These are the foure conclusions Master Knolleys gathereth out of my arguments , but with all adds , saying , that all this doth not prove , that this Presbyterian Church government is dependent upon a supreame judicature , to the Decrees of which they must submit themselves and their churches . This saith Mr. Knollys doth not follow ; but of that in its due place . In the mean time it will be much to the purpose , a little to consider his expressions . All which saith he ) should it be granted proves : First , &c. to wit , the four conclusions now layd down in this place , I intreat the Reader to behold the vanity of the man , in so speaking , all which sh●uld ●t be granted , as if he did me a great courtesie and favour to yeeld unto me , that which the holy Scripture in ex●resse wo●ds declareth o be the will and pleasure of God and that which I had out of the blessed word of truth sufficiently ev need , and which no man can deny , except he will deny the Scripture and Word of God which hath perspicuously and in fo mall termes set own , that there was a Colledge & Presbyte ie of Elders , orda ned and constituted in very Church or City who were to have the rule over the people in their severall congre●ations , within their ●r●cin ●s which M Knollys himself consenteth unto , as is evident by his 4 conclusions . So that if ever there had been any time of denying or not granting , that all the Churches of the New Iestament were all Ar●stocratically and Presbyterianly to be govern'd , and were so many severall Eccle a●●icall Corpo ations , and that all those Scriptures I had produced for the proof of the same , had not been rightly applyed and alleadged , now had been the time ( when this businesse was in question and agitation ) for Mr Knollys to have shewen his skill and to have produced the reasons of his dislike and gain-saying , but when he confirmed what I proved , as is manifest from his four conclusions it is a great folly in the man , to say , all which should it be granted , when he himselfe acknowledgeth as much , and in expresse terms in the eleventh page of his book hath these words ; It is not denyed ( saith he ) by the brethren , ( meaning the Independents ) that the Presbyters in all Churches , were the men in the Government of the Churches , in which they were Elders : These are his own words , by which he consen●s to that I had written to be true , to wit , that all the Churches of the New Testament were all Aristocratically to be governed , that is , that all the particular congregations under the severall Presbyters were to be moderated and regulated Communi consilio Presbyteram : so that if every Congregat on and particular assembly , then the pastor and Elder also of that congregation , as being but a chie●e member of it , is to be ordered and governed by the joynt and common councell of the whole colledge of Presbyters , and that by Mr Knollys his own concession from which grant of his , I shall now likewise deduce these ensuing conclusions , which will necessarily follow out of his words , and all of them fatall to his own principles , and to the opinion of those of the congregationall way . The first , that the people are wholly excluded from Government in the Church ; for saith he , It is not denyed by the brethren , that the Presbyters in all Churches , were the men in Government of the Churches , in which they were Elders : So that the people and Church though presbyterated ( as they speak ) have not the government in their hands , as indeed they have not , as never having received the Keyes , nor never having been made stewards of the Church , nor joyned in Commission with the Elders , and therefore they can never either receive in members , or cast out offenders ; for all these are acts of Government and belong onely to the Rulers of the Church , whom the people are ever to obey in the Lord , as he granteth , and by this he overthrows all that which afterward he affirms , that the Church or Congregation of which Diotrephes was an Elder , had power over him ; and this is the first conclusion , that of necessity followeth out of Mr Knollys his words ; but more of this in the sequell of this discourse . The second conclusion that follows out of his words is this That the Government was not put into the hands of any one Elder with his Congregation , but into the hands of many Elders , that is , into the hands of the whole Presbytery , to wit , the Court or Colledge of Presbyters ; so that they , and they only , joyntly and together , had the power , both to question , convent and censure ; for M. Knollys saith , It is not denyed by the brethren , but that the Presbyters in al churches were the men in the government : according to that of S. John If I come , I will remember his deeds which he doth prating against us . So that whosoever shall , Diotrephes like , indeavour to alter this government , and assume it to themselves from the other Elders and from the Presbyters , or to invest the people with it , or joyn them in commission with the Elders , or to arrogate unto themselves or to their particular congregations , an absolute jurisdiction within themselves , and an Independency from them ; and shall go about to disgrace and prate against the Presbyters , and labour to bring them into the hatred of the people , and shall take this liberty at pleasure , to cast out whom they will out of their congregations , or to bring in whom they please upon their owne tearmes and conditions , and exercise an absolute Lordly Dominion amongst themselves over their congregations and the severall members in them , all such are guilty of Diotrephes his sinne , and offend in like manner , and are equally to be blamed as assumers unto themselvs of that power which only belongeth to the presbytery ; now when all the Independents are guilty of this crime , they may justly with Diotrephes be censurd : and this is the second conclusion that necessarily followeth from Mr. Knollys his words . The third is this , that there were many congregations in all the primitive churches , and yet made all of them within their severall precincts and jurisdictions but one church ; for so it was here in the church that Saint Iohn writeth unto , where there were many Elders as Master Knollys confesseth , in the which every Elder had his particular congregation as well as Diotrephes , for they were no way inferiour to him ; so that , if he had his particular congregation they each of them severally had their congregations likewise , and yet they were all of them to be governed and ruled communi consilio presbyterorum , which kind of government Diotrephes opposing , or refusing obedience unto , and affecting a Supremacy and jurisdiction to himselfe and his congregation independent from the presbytery , was justly blamed by the Apostle Saint Iohn , in that he prated against the presbyters with malicious words . So that by all that I have now said , these three positions are clearely manifest which Master Knollys denyeth , viz : the first , That Diotrephes had a particular congregation . The second that he affected an absolute jurisdicton within himselfe and to have his congregation independent , and that he was the first that opposed the presbyterian government ; for we never read of any that prated malicious words against the Presbyterie before . The third that the church that Saint Iohn writ unto , was governed by the common counsell of the Presbytery at that time , and that Saint Iohn did then acknowledge a Court and common councell of Presbyters both Classicall and Synodicall to appeale unto , all which Master Knollys notwithstanding doth peremptorily deny . But for the fuller elucidation of the truth , I will first make all these propositions good from Master Knollys his own words in this his answer , and then I will prove those severall appeales I made mention of page 10. and after that , evidently evince that the people and congregation in any Church have not power to judge their Ministers , and that it is a meare babble in M. Knollys to say , that if nothing of publicke concernment were to be done without the joynt consent of the Presbytery , that then Saint Iohn the Presbyter would not have transgressed so farre as to take upon him this authority over Diotrephes , to tell the Church of his faults &c. all these things I will methodically handle , and then go on to answer whatsoever Master Knollys hath to say to all my other arguments in their due places . And for proofe , that Diotrephes had a particular congregation , which Master Knollys saith there was no mention of , waving the reasons above specified , from that nigh relation that is betweene a Pastor and a flocke , which is so much urged by all the Independents , I say waving all those reasons , I will make use of Master Knollys his owne words , for it may be , he will beleeve himselfe , and perhaps his Disciples and followers and those of the congregationall way will give more credit to him , whom they accompt very learned , then to any thing I can produce out of the holy Scripture : and if they will duly consider and ponder his expression they will then perceive not only his errors , but how palpably he everywhere contradicteth himselfe and woundeth their cause , and everteth their opinion , whiles he laboureth with all his power to maintaine and defend it . Diotrephes ( saith he ) opposed the brethren and forbad them that would have received them , yea and cast them out ( ver . 10. ) of the Church ; to wit , excommunicated them ; but doth it hereby appear ( saith he ) that Diotrephes would have his congregation independent ? and have an absolute jurisdiction within it selfe ? N● ( saith he ) but , Diotrephes would lord it over the Church , and have the Preeminency above his brethren , whether fellow Elders or fellow Saints . By the way , take notice , that in Master Knollys his opinion , Diotrephes was a Saint , Saint Diotrephes therfore let him be even such another Saint as himselfe and his brethren are . Diotrephes ( saith he ) loving the primacy amongst them , would be the Primate and Metropolitan of the Church , and have the preeminency of all the Presbyters in it , and brethren of it . And why therefore should the Doctor marvell that his brethren should now urge this place against the Court of Preshyters ? Thus Master Knollys while he seemes to answer , most maliciously and wickedly calumniates his brethren and labours to perswade the world that the presbyters of our times are like Diotrephes , in affecting Supremacy over their fellow Presbyters and over the churches ; and all this to inrage the people against them , when it is they themselves , that would bring all men under their slavery , and have an absolute authority and jurisdiction Independent in their severall congregations within themselves , which was the sinne of Diotrephes . But out of Master Knollys his words , it appeareth that Diotrephes had a particular congregation : For Church and congregation are Synonimaes in his Dialect , which is yet more clearely evident from his words page the 7. which are these : Therefore ( saith he ) the Apostle writs to the Church or particular congregation , whereof Diotrephes was a member and an Elder , who he knew had power to judge him . These are Master Knollys formall expressions ; out of all which it doth now evidently appeare , that there were many Presbyters and many congregations in that Church Saint Iohn writeth unto , and that Diotrophes had his particular congregation amongst them ; for so Master Knollys doth in expresse termes acknowledge , and in so speaking contradicts himselfe , and vindicates me from the error he accused me of , who affirmed , I was much mistaken in my commentary exposition and application of that place , saying there was no mention made of any particular congregation Diotrephes had , And yet here he asserteth that Saint Iohn writ to the church or particular congregation , whereof Diotrephes was a member and an Elder : so that he hath done my worke for me once and again , and made himselfe guiltie of that fault he charged me with page 6 and page 7. By which all men may see not only the contentiousnesse and restlesnesse of the creatures spirit , and the folly of the man who contradicteth himselfe at every hand , but may also gather that that Church consisted of many congregations , all the which made but one Church within its precinct , and was to be governed by the joynt consent and common counsell of the Presbyterie ; and that Diotrephes aspiring to the primacy amongst them and seeking to stand singular by himselfe with his congregation , and to be Independent , and to have no relation or reference to the Presbyters of that Church , became an offender by it , and was therefore severely reproved by Saint Iohn for his so doing , in opposing his brethren in taking in and casting out of what members he pleased , by his sole and absolute authority ; all which Mr Knollys accordeth to : whether therefore this were not to make his congregation Independent , and whether Diotrephes was not the first that opposed the Presbyterian government , and affronted a Court and common ▪ councell of Presbyters ( seeing we read of none that did these things before him ) and whether those that now seek to establish an absolute jurisdiction in every congregation within themselves Independent , be not rather like Diotrephes than those godly Ministers that desire the government in common according to Gods holy word , I leave it to the judgement of the learned to consider ; and whether or no Mr Knollys doth not palpably contradict himselfe in all this his discourse : for he acknowledgeth that Diotrephes had his particular congregation and opposed the Presbyters in it , and that he did evill in usurping authority over the church and those brethren he cast out : and yet notwithstanding he said it was more then he knew , or I could prove . Whether this therefore be not to contradict himself and to say and unsay and meerly to trifle , I leave to the judgement of all intelligible men . I conceive that all men that are but of ordinary capacity , when they shall well consider my argument and Mr Knollys his reply unto it , will say ▪ that Diotrephes assumed that power to himselfe , which belonged to the Colledge and councell of Presbyters ; for if he had not bin a transgressour , and an offender against Saint Iohn and the other Presbyters , the Apostle would never have said , Wherefore if I come ▪ I will remember his deeds which he doth , prating against us with malicious wordes , &c. so that by us there , must necessarily be understood , Saint John himselfe and the other Presbyters ; for he includes himselfe in the number of those that Diotrephes prated against and opposed . Now Saint John was an Elder , for so he calleth himselfe , and Mr Knollys acknowledgeth it , and confesseth also that there were many more Elders in that Church , and against all those did Diotrephes prate with malicious words in opposition to their authority , which Mr Knollys doth not gain-say , yea he affirmrth it , that Diotrephes would lord it over the Church , and have the preeminency above his brethren , whether fellow-Elders or fellow-Saints , he would be Primate , saith he , and Metropolitan of the Church , and have the preeminency of all the Presbyters in it , and Brethren of it . Doth it not then sufficiently appear from Mr Knollys his own words , that Diotrephes assumed that power to himselfe , that belonged to the Colledge and councell of Presbyters , and that he was the first that opposed the Presbyterian government , and that affronted the common-councell of Presbyters ? without speaking of malicious words against them , & lording it over the Church and taking in and casting out of members and ruling after an arbitrary way , and with a sole power and authority within himselfe in his congregation , and violating that order of government God had established in that Church , be not in Mr Knollys ▪ and those of his parties judgement , to assume that authority to himselfe that belonged unto the councell of Presbyters , and openly to oppose the Presbyterian government , and to affront all the Presbyters which were ridiculous in any man to affirme ? I am confident all intelligible Christians will say , there was never any opposition of any court or councell of Presbyters , if this were not ; and yet Mr Knollys saith it is more then he knoweth or I can prove , that Diotrephes assumed that power to himselfe that belonged unto the Colledge of Presbyters , or that he opposed the Presbyterian government , and yet acknowledgeth the thing in formall words ; whether therefore he doth not again and again contradict himselfe and confirme my argument and fight against his own opinion , I leave it to the judgement of the learned . I shall also desire the reader seriously to consider with himselfe , whether these words of Saint Iohn , Wherfore if I come , saith he , I will remember his deeds which he doth , prating against us with malicious words , do not necessarily inferre , that there was a Court and common-councell of Presbyters in that Church to appeal , unto in Saint Iohns time ? For to what purpose otherwise should St. Iohn have said , If I come , I will remember his deeds , if there had bin no power and authority in that Church to have called Diotrephes to an accompt and to have punished and censured him ? But , saith Mr Knollys ; If Diotrephes had affronted the Court and common-councell of Presbyters , why was he not convented before them ? Surely the Apostle and Elder Saint John , would rather have writ to the Colledge of Presbyters ( if there had bin any such ) than to the Church , and would rather have sent him a summons to appear at some Consistory , and would have writ thus , Diotrephes loves to be a Primate among you ; wherefore when the Presbytry come to keep order and to meet together in a councell , I will remember his deeds and informe against him that he pra●e● against us with malicious words ; but the Apostle did not know of any such Court or councell of Presbyters to appeal unto . Thus Mr Knollys triflingly cavilleth : As if Saint Iohn and the Presbyters had been all ignorant of their duty , and as if in writing unto the Church , Saint Iohn did not in that write to the Presbyters in it also , as well as Christ writing unto the seven Churches and in sending unto them did not also write unto the Angels and Presbyters in them , when we learne from all those Epistles and from the holy Scripture that the government of all those seven churches , as of all the Apostolicall churches through the world , lay only on the Presbyters shoulders , which Mr Knollys also assenteth unto , saying page 11. That it is not denyed by the brethren , that the Presbyters in all Churches , were the men in the government of the Churches in which they were Elders . So that it cannot be denied but in his writting to the Church , he writ unto the Presbyters principally who were the Officers in it and the cheife members of it , and knew very well that there was a Court of Presbyters in that Church , who would in convenient time have called Diotrephes to an accompt , though Saint Iohn had never come thither ; but he signifying that when he came he would remember his deeds , made them retard their proceeding against him , for a time , that he being a fellow-Presbyter with them ( as Peter was , with those Presbyters he writs unto 1 Epistle Pet. chap. 5. ) might have the hearing of the cause amongst the other Presbyters ; all which sufficiently confirmeth that Saint Iohn did acknowledge a common councell of presbyters in that Church to appeale unto . And therefore all Master Knollys his whibling questions are vaine and meerely to delude the people : for what man is there so stupid or so unexperienced in matters of government , or but understands the practice of our times in every corporation , or Committee , through the Kingdome , that knowes not if any Alderman of any Corporation , or any Commissioner of any Committee should affect a particular domination to himselfe over his fellow-Aldermen or Commissioners , or over the people that were under their charge , whenas they are by their charters and Commissions , to governe their several corporations , Hundreds , Rapes , Ridings or Wapentaks by the common consent , and joynt counsell and aggreement of them all , so that no order made without their combined authority or the joynt consent of them all , or the major part of them , should be binding and of force , I say , who doth not know , that if any of those Aldermen or Commissioners contrary unto their Charter or Commission should not onely assume unto himself a particular power of ruling and ordering things by himselfe , and of giving Lawes unto others and in bringing in or putting out , either in the Corporation or Committee , whom they pleased ; and should also use disgracefull words against their fellow-Aldermen or Commissioners , that any either Alderman or Commissioner doing any of these things , doth not oppose the Corporation & Committee with the commissioners in them , and by that offend against their government , and deserveth thereby severely to be punished ? And who doth not likewise know , that if either any of the Aldermen or any of the Commissioners should understand of this their disorderly carriage , and should informe the Corporation or Committee of it by letters , and say , that when he came he would remember his deeds , by these his expressions doth not acknowledge likewise that there is both in the corporation and committee a standing court , in which there was power at all times for the punishing and censuring of any such offender ? I am most assured that he will so conclude that there is a court there , and withall will say , that this or that commissioners information doth no way impeach or hinder the proceedings of that court , or minorise its power , but that it may go on to censure such as shall offend against their authority , if it can be proved by others , though that commissioner that informed against him should not be present . And even so it was in the Church Saint John writ unto , it had a court , and power within it selfe of proceeding against Diotrephes , and would have used it against him , whether S. Iohn had come or no , although we may suppose that they did not proceed against him till Saint Iohn came : yea , I shall make it good out of Mr Knollys his words that there was a court in that church . But by this , I say , it appeareth that Saint Iohn knew very well that there was a court or councell of Presbyters to appeal unto in his time , in that church , though Mr Knollys affirmeth the contrary , peremptorily asserting that S. Iohn knew no such Court to appeal to , and that I cannot prove any such appeals . But it is ordinary with M. Knollys to confute the holy Scriptures , and to contradict himself as he doth both here and in all other of his answers , as in their due places we shall see . For what Christian ever with deliberation did read the Scripture , that can beleeve that St. Iohn could be ignorant that there was a court and Presbytry in every church , when M. Knollys himself acknowledgeth it ? Without doubt Saint Iohn knew the government that was then established in all churches , as well as Mr Knollys . He could not be ignorant what government God had appointed & established in every church which was a Presbytery ( as appeareth from all the places above quoted ) which was a Court , to wit , a company of officers in every church armed with power & authority from God himself within their severall Presbytries to order , rule and govern the people under them , and to convent any offender before them and to proceed against him by censure and punishment : If the crime layd against him were sufficiently proved , and that the people under them were to yeild obedience unto them in the Lord , such a power was every Presbytery invested with through all the Apostolicall churches ; and this Mr Knollys hath acknowledged in divers places in this his Pamphlet , & in this his very answer concerning Diotrephes , as we shall see by and by . And all this S. Iohn could not be ignorant of , and that in the Church of Ierusalem , in which hee was both a Pastor and a Member , that the Presbytery ruled there , and that all the people made their addresses ( as well for the good of their soules , as for the better rectifying of abuses ) to the Apostles and Presbyters of that Church , and appealed alwayes unto them , and never applyed themselves unto the people or the multitude , as we may see in these particulars : as , First , when they were pricked in their hearts , they applied themselves unto the Apostles for direction , saying , men and brethren what shall we do ? Acts 2. they went not to the church or people , but to the Apostles , knowing that the Ministers were their guides , and that they were to be directed by them , and that they were bound to obey them . And so in the fact of Ananias and Saphira his wife , when they had purloyned the goods of the Church ; for whereas it was ordered and agreed upon by common consent that the price of those possessions that were sold should be layd down at the Apostles feet , and that distribution should be made unto every man according as he had need ; contrary to this order Ananias kept back part of the price , Saphira his wife also being privy to it : Hereupon the people appeal unto the Apostles in whose hands the government then lay , and who had power to censure and punish them , as they did for that their delinquency , as it is to be seen Acts the 5. they went not to the people and Church , but applyed themselves to the Presbytery ; and of this proceeding Saint John was not ignorant . Again when the widdowes were neglected in the daily ministration , for the taking away of this abuse , they appealed unto the Apostles , as we may see in the sixt of the Acts ( and not unto the Church or people ) who ordered that businesse , and determined the controversie amongst them , to which the people assented . This also Saint Iohn was not ignorant of : And he knew very well that the Presbytery in Ierusalem and all other Churches had power to send any of the Apostles or their other Ministers into any other place to preach , or upon any message , as we may see it Acts the 8 ▪ and Acts 14 , & 15. For the Presbytery of Ierusalem sent Peter and Iohn to the City of Samaria to preach amongst the people there , which they could not have done except the Presbitry had had power and authority in their hands over thē ; we see also the same in the Church of Antioch , where they sent Paul and Barnabas and their ministers to the Presbitry at Ierusalem , & the Presbitry of Ierusalem they likewise sent their decrees by their Ministers through all Cities and Churches , which they could not have done , had they not had authority over the Ministers . Again S. Iohn knew very well that the power of admitting of members lay not in the peoples hands ; for we read Acts the 9. When Paul came to Ierusalem and assayed to joyn himself to the Disciples , and that they being affraid of him , & believing not that he was a Disciple , St Paul appeals from them to the Presbytery of the Apostles in whose hands the government lay ; and declaring unto them how matters were , they admitted him into fellowship with them , without the consent of the people & their good liking , for the government did not belong unto them . All these proceedings Saint Iohn knew very well , and therefore could not be ignorant that there was a Court and Councell to appeal to in all Churches : Yea Saint Iohn knew also that the Presbytry of Ierusalem had power and authority over any of the Apostles , and did upon any occasion convent them before them as we may see in the 11. chap. and 21. where Peter was called before the Presbytery for going in to the Gentiles , and was therefore to give an accompt of his actions there , which he did ; all with shews there was there a standing Court : and so in the 21. chapter the Presbytry gave Saint Paul an order and direction how to behave himself toward the weak ones ; which he followed ; all which shewes that they only had the power in their hands , and that there was a court there , and that it belonged not to the people ; all these things , I say , S. Iohn was not ignorant of , & therfore knew very well that in that Church also where Diotrephes was a Presbyter , there was a Court and Common-councell of Presbyters to appeal unto , or else he would never have said , If I come I will remember his deeds . But why should I spend time in proving that which to any understanding man is as evident a nd clear as almost any other truth in the holy Scripture ? especially when Mr Knollys hath proved it himself in formall words in many places in this his answer ; for he confesseth that there was a Presbytery established in every Church , and that the government of those Churches was put into the Presbyters hands , and that the people were to obey those Presbyters as their guides ; and in expresse termes page the seventh saith , Therefore the Apostle writes to the Church or particular congregation whereof Diotrephes was a Member and an Elder , who he knew had power to judge him , as well as the Church or particular Congregation of Corinth had power to judge them that were Members therein , 1 Cor. 5. 12. 13. And therefore might as warrantably admonish Diotrephes , as the Church of Colosse might Archippus Coloss . 4. verse 17. in these words , He confesseth that Saint Iohn knew that the Church whereof Diotrephes was a Member and Presbyter , had power to judg him ; which doth necessarily infer that there was at that time a court there ; for judgement and censure and inflicting of punishment is the act of a court or Magistracy and of those that are in authority and armed with power ; besides for further illustration of his meaning , he saith that the church Saint Iohn writ unto , had the same power over its Members that the church of Corinth had over its Members : Now all men that have read the first and second E●istle of Paul to the Corinthians , know very well that there was a court in the church of Corinth with plenary authority from Christ himselfe , both to convent and censure , and that with the severest punishment those that did publikely scandalize the Gospell , as is evident by the excommunication of the incestuous person ; now if that church that St. Iohn writ unto were equall in power to that of Corinth , and that of Colosse , and to all the other Apostolicall churches , as Mr Knollys confesseth and laboureth to prove ; then these conclusions will necessarily follow from his argumentations . The first , that Saint Iohn could not be ignorant that there was a court and common-councell of Presbyters in that church to appeal unto ; for Mr Knollys saith , that Saint John knew that that Church had power to judge Diotrephes , and therefore in this contradicteth himselfe ; for in the sixth page he affirmed that Saint Iohn knew not any such court . 2ly , it follows that there was an Uniformity of government in all the Apostolicall and Primitive churches : which wholy overthroweth the tenent of many of the Independents who hold the contrary ; so that one church had not one manner of government , and another church another manner of government peculiar unto it selfe , and distinct from the other ; but they were all governed alike by their severall Presbyteryes , and had equall authority and power within their severall precincts , as the church at Ierusalem , Ephesus , Corinth , in all which there were many congregations , and yet all of them made but each of them a particular church within their respective jurisdictions , and were all to be governed by the joynt consent of there severall Presbytries . And lastly , that this order of government was to be perpetuated to the end of the world , which when Saint Diotrephes laboured to violate in assuming it to himselfe and his congregation , both hee and all these that follow his steps , deserve severely to be punished for it , as prevaricators against both precept and example of all well ordered churches and Christians . And this shall suffice to have replyed by way of answer to what Mr Knollys had to say for proofe that Saint Iohn knew not of any Court or Common-councell of Presbyters , either classicall or synodicall , to appeal unto in his time . And now I come to make good those appeals I made mention of page 10. which Mr Knollys thinketh a thing impossible for me to do ; to wit , That every particular man , as well as any assembly or congregation , may have their appeal to the Presbytery of their Precinct , Hundred or Division under whose jurisdiction they were ; and if they finde themselves wronged there , then they have appeales to some other higher Presbytery or Councell of Divines for reliefe and justice . These appeales Master Knollys saith I cannot make good to be according to the Scripture of truth , although the having recourse by appeales , from Inferiors to Superiors and from one Court to another , is so evident by the very light of nature , and approved of by the practice of all Nations and Churches in all ages , and is also so apparent by the holy Scriptures both of the old and new testament , as there is scarce any truth more obvious to all understanding men ; yet Master Knollys peremptorily asserteth , that they cannot be made good out of the Scriptures of truth ; so that it is manifest , to all men , that be there any truth never so perspicuous , he is resolved to beleeve nothing but what he conceiveth to be according to the Scripture of truth . Therefore for the gratifying of Master Knollys , and all such as with candour and ingenuity and without any prejudice shall reade the insuing lines , I shall in this place adde something more fully and distinctly to that which I spake in the foregoing page for the proofe of those appeales I mentioned page 10. and sufficiently evince , they are warranted by the Word of truth : and for that purpose , I shall first produce the authority of holy Scriptures and bring forth some Presidents out of the unerring word for the confirmation of the same ; and then I shall also ratifie the use of appeales by reasons and from the practice of all ages in all Nations . And all this I shall the more willingly do in this place , although it is done againe and againe in this treatise ; and onely because Master Knollys affirmeth that I cannot make good that appeales be according to the Scripture of truth . And for proofe ofthis , I will begin with that of our Saviour Matth. 13 vers . 15. Wherefore ( saith he ) if thy brother shall trespasse against thee , go and tell him of his fault betweene thee and him alone , &c. But if he heare thee not , appeale higher to two or three more : And if he shall neglect to heare them , appeale yet higher , tell it then unto the Church , that is to the Court of Presbyters in that precinct . So that from this place it is evident , that appeales are warranted by the Word of truth ; for truth it self , hath taught us the Doctrine of appeals . And for Presidents of appeales there are many in the New-Testament , to say nothing of the Old. To begin with that in the 5. of the Acts which we finde recorded after Christ's ascension in the questioning of Ananias and Saphira , whereas by conjoynt argrement it was appointed and ordered amongst them , that all things should be common , and that selling their possessions , they should bring the price of them and lay it also at the Apostles feet ; which very expression signifieth and denoteth what great authority and power the Apostles and Presbyters in the Church of Jerusalem were then in , and sufficiently declares that there was a Court there , as all the carriage of that businesse doth abundantly prove . I say therefore , when they had made such an order by common consent , and when it was found out that Ananias and Saphira his wife had not dealt faithfully in that businesse , nor according to publike agreement , but had consented together to deceive their brethren , and by that had scandalized the Gospel , the Church or people for the redressing of this abuse , take not the matter into their owne hands , nor challenge not any power unto themselves for the punishing of Ananias and Saphira , as well knowing their place then , and that the government did not belong unto them , but to the Elders and Rulers over them ; they appeale therefore unto the Apostles and make their complaint unto them , and exhibit their Articles against Ananias and Saphira , as both guilty of the same crime , whereupon they were convented before the Apostles as Delinquents ; Peter then being there president and chiefe judge , and finding them guilty ▪ sentenced them both , from God himselfe , and punished them for their sinne with death ; by which we may take notice not onely of an appeale , but that there was a standing Court of Presbyters in Jerusalem and that they had in it plenary power from Christ for the tryall and punishing of all offenders and of casting them out of the Church , if Scandalous , as well as the Church of Corinth ; and it stands with all reason ; for Jerusalem was the mother Church , and therefore was inferior to none of the Daughter-Churches and to this Court of Presbyters were all appeales ever to be made by the people of that precinct ; as this one instance doth sufficiently declare . And that other president in the 6. of the Acts where we have a second appeale upon an other publike scandall , which was the neglect of their widdowes in the daily Ministration where they applyed themselves unto the Apostles ; for the particular congregations assumed not the authority into their hands of redressing the abuse , nor challenged not any right to the government , but appealed unto the Apostles for remedy , who ordered that whole businesse by joynt consent , to which all the people willingly submitted themselves as it is at large to be seene in the sixt Chapter of the Acts. The third appeale we finde Acts the ninth , where Paul assaying to joyne himself to the Disciples , and they being afraid of him , and doubting whether he were a beleever , Saint Paul forth with appeals from them to the Apostles , who he knew had the authority in their hands , and making knowne his cause unto them , they forthwith admitted him into Church-fellow-ship with them without the consent of the people , who indeed had nothing to do , either in the admitting of members of casting of them out ; and therefore they allowed of the appeale of Saint Paul , to teach all men whether to fly , to wit the to Presbytery , if they be injured by the people or debard from any Church-priviledge by them , for they only are the stewards of the Church and have the Keys of the kingdom of heaven to open and shut the doores to whom they shall thinke fit , or unworthy ; and this is the place of the Presbyters , and not of the people : for they are injoyned to obey their guids and to submit themselves in the Lord to what they order and appoint according to the Word of God. Here we have three presidents of appeales in the mother-church of Ierusalem to the Presbytery upon any abuse , so that by the mouth of their witnesses out of the word of truth this truth of appeales is sufficiently confirmed ; And that the Presbytery at Ierusalem had plenary power over the very Apostles and could call them at any time to an accompt , is manifest from the eleventh of the Acts where Peter was convented & questionedbefore them and was forced to give an accompt of his going in to the Gentiles and Preaching unto them , which he willingly y●elded unto , knowing it was their place to question any ; yea the Presbytery in every Church could send the very Apostles & Ministers to Preach in any place or city or upon any Message , as we see they sent Peter and Iohn to Samaria , and the Church of Antioch sent Paul and Barnabas with other Ministers to the Presbytery of Ierusalem , as is evident Acts the 14. and Acts 15. and therefore all these examples sufficiently prove that all the people of every Church made their appeales to their severall Presbyteries , if there arose any controversies and abuses among themselves : and if there arose any difference between Church , and Church , or betweene Presbytery and Presbyterie about any points of Doctrine or Religion , then they made their appeales for the determining of those controversies to Councells and Synods , as we may see it Acts the 15. and this is one of Gods Ordinances as the Independents themselves doe acknowledge . So that for the Doctrine of appeales it is so cleare that all the learned and judicious cannot doubt of it ; and I am most assured that those that shall but with due deliberation seriously examine the Scriptures above quoted and those that follow in this discourse , for the confirmation of the same truth , will wonder that any man that pretends to learning as Master Knollys doth , should ever dare say , that appeales cannot be made good to be according to the Scripture of truth , whereas there is almost no truth in the holy Scripture more cleare and evident than this of appeales . Yea this method of dealing and manner of handling of businesses of publike offences and scandals , and for the redressing of them , is ratified by the very light and Law of nature , as we may reade in all the governments under the very Heathens , and Paul made use of it , by appealing from inferiour Courts to Caesars tribunall . And I shall never be brought by all the arte and wit of man to beleeve , that Christ hath left his Church under the New Testament in a worse condition then it was under the old , where we know they had appeales from one Court to another . Nay if Christians now , had not the liberty of appeales in matters of conscience and Religion , they should be inferior to the Pagan nations ; and surely Christ hath not left his Church which is his Kingdom , in a worse condition then either the Iewish or Ethnicke Kingdomes were , and therefore by all reason besides the Testimony of Christ Matth. the 13. and besides the Presidents I produced out of the Word of God to confirme appeales , the lawfulnesse of appeales is sufficiently established and ratified . So that I hope that which I have now briefly set downe , may satisfie any rationall man. But before I go on to prove that the people or Church have not power to judge their Ministers , which is the last thing I undertake to make good . I must say something by way of answer to a vaine and frivolous cavill of Master Knollys , which is this . If the Doctor can prove these appeales , ( saith he ) I aske him whether that higher Presbytery or Councell of Divines , be not as Independent as the brethren and their Churches against whom the Doctor hath written : and if so , then such a high Presbytery or Councell of Divines , is not Gods Ordinance by the Doctors own confession and affirmation . The very reading of this fond cavill had been enough for the confutation of it to any solid man : and truly had not I to deale with such a trifling creature as he is in serious businesse , who compts every word he scribleth an oracle , I would have passed by it with silence , as being nothing to the question between us , and as little to his purpose as all his other wrangling is , except it be to declare to all men , that he knoweth not his owne principles nor no good learning . But for answer , all such as know any thing in the controversie betweene us and the Independents , know that it is my opinion and settled beleefe , that all Churches and Councels are to depend upon the Word of God , and to be ruled and ordered in all their proceedings and Governments according to the direction of the same : an Angel from Heaven is not be heard that speaks not according to the written Word Gal. 1. and this Word hath directed us to the law and to the testimony , Isay 8. and proclamed all men that speak not according to that , to be in darknesse ; and therefore according to this my opinion , no Church or Councell in the world is Independent ; and therfore all such Churches and Councels as have not either precept or example for their proceedings in the ordering and governing of them , out of the Word of God , but follow their own vaine and idle phantasies and affect Independency , in my opinion they in so ordering their Churches do not according to Gods Ordinances . Now when the Independent Governments are such , they are their own inventions ; and that government only of the Presbyters , is Gods Ordinance , as having both precept and Presidents for it in Gods Word , upon which they depend ; and this is my opinion , and not that which Master Knollys would grollishly put upon me ; and this shall suffice for answer to that peece of non-sense of his . And now I come to the last branch of his answer , and that which I undertooke to make Good and prove , viz. that the people and congregation in any Church have not power to judge their Ministers , which Master Knollys affirmeth they have , and for instance produceth the Church of Corinth and that of Colosse , understanding by Church the people , who he saith had power over the members , miserably mistaking himself and abusing the ignorant and simple soules by it , as will by and by appeare to those that can discerne things that differ or are but a little acquainted in matters of government , either Ecclesiasticall or civill . For if men do once but rightly understand what a Church is according to the discription of a Church as it is laid down in the New-Testament , and consider withall of the parts and members of that Church which by Saint Paul is compared to the body of a man : they will easily perceive , that the governors and rulers are compared unto the head and all the noble parts of the body , as to the eyes , eares hands &c. which are to guide and governe all the other members in the body , and that all the other members under them are to be ordered and ruled by the head and other more noble parts , and are to follow their direction ; so that it is in the Church of God , as it is in the body of man , some are to rule , and others to be ruled in it and whose place it is ever to obey : For none of the members of the body leave their stations , unlesse they by violence be cut off , as all rationall creatures do very well know . For the head is ever the head , the eye is ever the eye , the eare is ever the eare , and the hand is ever the hand , &c. For Saint Paul saith 1 Cor. 12. vers . 27. Now yee are the body of Christ , and members in particular . And God hath set some in the Church , first Apostles , secondly Prophets , thirdly Teachers , after that miracles , then gifts of healing , helps in Government , diversities of tongues ; are all Apostles ? are all Prophets ? are all Teachers ? &c intimating that the Apostles , and Prophets and Teachers , and helps in Government in the Church , every of them keepes their stations , to wit , they that are once Apostles , Teachers or Governors , doe continue in the Church in their severall places , ever so to be , and never lose their places , but alwayes to the day of their death , remaine and continue still to be Apostles , Prophets , Teachers and Rulers , according to that in the fourth of the Ephesians vers . 11. Where Saint Paul saith ▪ He gave some Apostles , and some Prophets , and some Evangelists and some Pastors and Teachers for the perfecting of the Saints , and for the worke of the Ministry and the edifying of the body of Christ , till we come all into the unity of the faith , and of the knowledge of the sonne of God , unto a perfect man , unto the measure of the stature of the fulnesse of Christ . We finde not in all the holy Scripture that any of those true Ministers were at any time degraded , or lost any thing either of their Titles or of their authority , but as God had put the rule and Government of the Church into their hands , and had given them the power of the Keyes , and made them Stewards in the Church which is his body , so they were ever to be the head , eyes , eares and hands for the governing and well ordering of the Church . We finde likewise that in every severall Church of the New-Testament there was a Presbytery ordayned , as Acts the 14. &c. and that the Presbyters had the Government of those severall Churches put into their hands , that the people and members of those Churches were commanded to obey their Presbyters as their guides whom God had set over them , Heb. 13. as Master Knollys and all the learnedst of the Independents do acknowledge . We finde likewise by the practise of the Church of Jerusalem the President of all other Churches , that the people there for the redressing of any abuse amongst themselves , assumed not the power into their own hands , but applied themselves and made their addresses and appeales to the Presbytery , and that they ordered every thing according as they thought good , and that the people willingly submitted themselves to the order . We finde further that for all acts of government , as questioning any offendo●s for the censuring and punishing of them , for ordination of Officers , and excommunication , it was done either by the sole power and authority of the Apostles , or by the Presbyteries of the Church and those that were in office , and not by the multitude , as is manifest by that in the 2. of the Cor. chap. 2. ver . 6. a place so much abused by the Independents ; sufficient ( saith the Apostle ) to such a man is the censure which was inflicted of many . So that it was not inflicted by all the people , but by such only in whose hands the power lay , which was the Presbytery , and therfore the Apostle saith by many or of many . And truly if we would but duly reade the Epistles of Saint Paul to Timothy and Titus which were writ to them , and in them to all the Ministers of the New-testament in all ages to come , and observe the rules set downe in them , which are to continue to the ende of the World , we shall finde that for all Acts of government and for the well ordering of the Church , it is only committed into the hands of the Ministers and presbyters of the severall Churches through all Nations , and that to them only belonged the managing of the Goverment , as the rulers and Stewards of the same ▪ and that all power and authority of Government peculiarly belonged unto them , and that the people had nothing to do with it but to obey . Again if we look but into the seven Churches of Asia , Revel . 2. & 2. We shall finde that all the Epistles Christ writes unto them are directed to the Angels and Ministers of those severall Churches , as upon whom the Government of those Churches lay , and who had both the praise of well doing and blame of any evill either committed or tolerated by them ; for seeing they were appointed by Christ himselfe to be the Stewards and Guides of those Churches and to be the Governours of the same , all the blame of the malversation of any of the members in them , is imputed unto them , as if they themselves had been the cause of it , as not using their Authority for the redressing of those abuses . So that it is apparently evident through the whole New Testament , That the Ministers and Presbyters , and they onely , in every Church had the rule of the people committed unto them , as the head , eyes , ears , and hands , the more noble members ; and that the people as the other members under them , were to yeeld obedience unto them in the Lord. And we find that in the holy Scripture , every man is to look unto that Office that is committed unto him , and that every one is to keep himselfe in that Station God hath placed him in , as we may see it at large , Rom. 12. ver . 6. Having gifts differing according to the grace given unto us , saith Saint Paul , whether prophecy , let us prophecy according to the proportion of faith , or ministry , let us waite on our ministry &c. He that ruleth , with diligence &c. Here we finde that every man according to his place and office , he is injoyned to wait upon it and not to desert it ; they that are appointed to rule , they are ever to rule ; and the others that are under them , are ever to obey ; every Member is to keep his station in this mysticall body ; the Magistrates and Parents and Masters whether ecclesiasticall or civill , are to continue in their severall places and to keep their ranks as long as they are in those places ; and all those that are under them , whether Subjects , children , or servants , they are likewise to keepe their places , and to obey all those that are over them in the Lord ; and that is their place ; for so the holy Scripture everywhere teacheth us , and especially in the 7. of the 1 of the Corinth . ver . 19 , 20 , 21 , 22. Circumcision ( saith the Apostle ) is nothing , and uncircumcision is nothing , but the keeping of the commandements of God ; That is , the yeelding of obedience to the commandments of God , and the obeying of those God hath set over us , and the honouring of those that are in authority and doing the will of God in every thing to our power , is that that commends any men unto God , especially the honouring of God himselfe and the reverencing of our godly Ministers and painfull Pastors , according to that of Saint Paul 1 Thess . 5. 12. Know them which are over you in the Lord , and esteem them very highly in love for their works sake : For God hath made them Pastors , and all the people their flock ; them fathers , and the people children begotten by their Ministry ; them builders , and the people the stones layd by them in the building ; them Stewards , and the people Domestiques under them and their conduct : So that every one in the Church of God is to continue in that Station God hath placed them in , untill they by their gifts and graces and eminent abilities be removed to a higher calling , or else for their misdemeanours are cast out ; and therefore Saint Paul saith , 1 Cor. 7. ver . 20. Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called ; and as if it had not bin sufficient to have once specified his mind in this businesse , in the 24 verse , he reiterateth this precept saying , Brethren , let every man wherein he is called therein abide with God. So that for the Ministers and Presbyters of the Church , or for the Magistrates of the Common-wealth , or for Masters or Parents of Families , for either of them , I say , to leave their calling in their particular places of ruling : and for either the flocks under the Pastors , or subjects under the Magistrates , or servants and children in the severall Families under their Parents and Masters , to offer to take the Government into their own hands , or to joyne themselves in Commission with them , and to take the rule in either Church , State , or Families upon them , is to leave their callings , and so to transgresse against the commandements of God who , hath injoyned the Magistrates , Ministers and Pastors both in Church and State to command , and all the people under them to obey , and in their so doing they each of them abide in the same calling and station wherein they are called : otherwise , they will be found transgressours of the Laws of God and Violaters of that Order God hath appoynted in Church and State , and bring confusion in both ; Now , God is the God of Order , and hath injoyned all men to keep his commandements , and the commandement given to the Magistrates , is to rule ; and the commandement given to the people in every Church is to obey their guides and yeeld double honour unto them ; the honour of reverence and subjection , and the honour of maintenance ; they are ever bound to obey them in the Lord : And this is the Order God appointed in all the Primitive Churches , That the Presbyters only should rule in them , and that the people should obey and not intermeddle in the government ; for that is not to keep themselves in their severall Stations , and to abide in the same calling wherein they were called . And to speake the truth , the ignorance of this doctrine and the pride of too too many hath bin the onely cause of all those confusions that now the Church and State are imbroyled with ; for if every man had learned but this lesson , To keep himselfe in the same calling wherein he was called , he would know that the Magistrates place whether civill or ecclersiasticall , is to command , and that the subjects and peoples place under them in their severall aboads and habitations , is to obey . They would understand likewise , that in every kingdome , commonwelth , corporation , or in any Province and Country or church , that howsoever businesse of publike concernment belongs unto the whole body in each of those governments , yet the managing of them and ruling and ordering of them respectively , belongeth and pertaineth onely to those in authority , as in a kingdome or Republique , howsoever the embasladours of other nations are sent into such a Kingdome and Common-wealth about businesse that may concern the whole Countrie , yet none but the King and his Councell or the State have the ordering and managing of the businesse , and the people and subjects under them intermeddle not in those high affairs , for they are Arcana Regni and appertain not unto them . And so it is in every Corporation , howsoever the Letters or Mandates from either King , Parliament or State , are directed unto the severall Counties , Hundreds or Corporations or Cities , yet the Lieutenants , Governors , Sherifes , Mayors , Aldermen and Common-councells in each of them are to mannage the businesse and to put in execution what they are commanded and injoyned by either Letters or Mandates , and the people under them severally are to yeeld obedience to what they order and command according to the severall exigences of the times , as daily experience teacheth all men ; so that the directing of their Letters to the severall Counties or Hundreds or Corporations in generall , doth not invest all the people with power or joyne them in commission with the Magistrates of those respective places , but leaveth the transacting of all things to those onely in those severall jurisdictions that are in authority and armed with power , which the people are not . Yea this truth is so well known and perceived by all such as will not wilfully blinde themselves , as it cannot be denyed ; hourly experience furnishing men with Presidents of it . For if any Delinquents be found out , they are not hailed before the people , but before such as are in authority ; there is not an ordinary Hew and Cry that is sent to any Parish , but it is carryed to the Constable or his Deputy and to such in that Town or Village as are in place or authority , so that the people trouble not themselves with it ; yea they will ordinarily say it concerneth them not , it is not their place to intermeddle in the businesse of State , that they affirme belonges to those that are in authority . And as it is in the affaires secular and in the State , so it is in the affaires of the Church , those in authority in the Church are to mannage the affaires and businesses of the Church and not the people : for God had appointed in all Churches in the New Testament ( which were but so many Corporations ) a standing Presbytery , and Order of Ministers and Rulers in each of them , in whose hands the government of them all , within their severall Precincts and Jurisdictions lay , the which Government they were ever to mannage and order by common consent and joynt agreement , with which the people had nothing to do , and with the which they ought not intermeddle ; for that had been to confound that Order God had established in each Church ; and this all well-instructed Christians knew ; and therefore in the Apostles times , not any that I ever read of opposed that Government before Diotrephes , who is blamed for this his temerity by St. John , to teach all men not to do the like left they fall into the same condemnation ; so that they knew very well that howsoever all the Epistles of Sant Paul and the other Apostles were directed to the severall Churches of their times , yet the managing of the affairs of those Churches belonged only unto the Presbyters Stewards and Angels of those respective Churches , as we may see in those seven Churches of Asia , where the Letters and the Epistles are directed to the Angels and Ministers of those Churches as those that had the Government of them in their hands , and not to the people : And so it was in the Church of Corinth , a place that the Independents so much abuse . Howsoever Pauls Epistles were directed to the whole Church , yet the officers only and Presbyters of that Church had the managing of the whole businesse concerning the incestuous person , both for the casting of him out and the taking of him in againe , upon his repentance , as is evident from the 2 Epistle and the second chapter where the Apostle saith sufficient to such a man is the punishment inflicted of many . So that all the people did not censure him , or inflict that punishment upon him ; but many , to wit the Presbyters and those in authority in that Church . And this agreeable to all reason : and therefore Master Knollys is mightily mistaken in his Commentary exposition of this place and that of the Epistle to the Colossians , in saying that as the Church or particular congregation of Corinth had power to judge them that were members therein . 1 Cor. 5. 12. 13. and as the Church of Colosse had power to admonish Archippus . Coloss . 4. 17. so the Church whereof Diotrephes was a member , might as warrantably admonish him . These are his words , in which there is a double yea a treble fallacy : for first he taketh the word Church in another sense then the Scripture speaketh of it ; which in all the Epistles of the holy Apostles for the most part , is taken collectively for a combination of many congregations under one Presbyterie within such a precinct , and he onely understandeth it for a particular congregation and assembly , and by this he deceiveth the reader . 2ly By Church he understandeth the people , the Presbyters excluded , and saith that they had power to judge their Ministers , whereas indeed though in all those churches there was a power , yet it lay soely in the Presbyters hands , and they only were invested with it , and the people were ever to stand to their orders , so long as they commanded in the Lord ; and the place of the people was to obey ; and therefore all that he saith about this businesse is a meere non sequitur●unc ; and this is the third error that insueth from groundlesse principles ; for this is not a good consequence , Paul writing unto the Church of Colosse hath these words , say unto Archippus that he take heed to his Ministry , and writing unto the Church of Corinth the 1. and 5. saith vers . 5. Deliver such a man unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh &c. Ergo the people have the power in their hands over all the members of those Churches both Ministers and people . This I assert doth not follow in all good reason ; No more then it will follow that if any Embassador should be directed to the kingdome of England now , or if any Message should be sent unto any corporation of the Kingdome commanding such service from it to the State , that the people in this Kingdom , or the people in those corporations should intermedle in the affaires of publike concernment , but all sound understanding men will say , It belongeth to the great and grave Councell of the Kingdom to mannage publike affaires , and to the Major and Aldermèn , and the Common-councell of each Corporation to transact and order the publicke businesse , and affaires , and for this only reason , because they are the men in those severall places that God and the people have invested with authority over them and it only belongeth unto them to order all affaires of publicke concernment , who God and the people have called and appointed to this end and purpose . And so it was in all the primitive and Apostolicall Churches , the Epistles were writ to the churches , but directed to the Angels and Ministers in them , as whose place it was to watch over them for their good and who only had the power of the Keyes , to bind and loose , to cast out and take in , according to Divine authority . Yea all the world knowes , that God never gave the Keyes to the people in any Church , but to the Ministers , therefore the authority of order and jurisdiction only belongeth to the Ministers and presbyters in every Church : now when Master Knollys by Church understandeth a particular congregation or assembly and the people in it and not the Presbyteries in every Church ; he is much mistaken in his Commentary exposition and abuseth not only himself but all those poore deluded people that follow him . Yea , he destroyeth his own principles and those of the congregationall way , for both he himselfe and I. S. do acknowledge , That the Government lay in the Presbyters hands in every church . Master Knollys his words to this purpose I have often ci●ed before and I. S. his words are these page 11. in asserting that the Persbyters did rule the Church at Ierusalem , and ordinarily other Churches , whom do you hit ? ( saith he in his answer to me ) Sure not the Independents , as you call them , we grant it is their part to rule ; thus he : but of these words in their due place . In the meane time , we may take notice , that they acknowledge that the government of those severall Churches lay in the Presbyters hands , who only had the ordering of the affaires of those Churches as the Stewards over them , and whose place it was , to receive any accusations , and examine matters of scandall and to proceede against offenders by cens●res and punishments upon evidence and proofe made against them , as the Epistles of Paul to Timothy and Titus do sufficiently evince . And therefore it is not only against the Word of God , but their own principles , to invest the people with power and authority over their Ministers and their fellow members , as to censure them , or ▪ to exercise any Act of Government over them . Neither doth Saint Paul in writing unto the Colossians and bidding them say to Archippus , that he take heede to his ministry , and in writing unto the Corinthians that they should cast out the incestuous person , investe the people in either of those Churches with power and authority over either Presbyters or their fellow members . For the power of reproofe and censure with authority belongs primarily and principally to the Pastors and Presbyters , in every Church , as the Epistles of Paul to Timothy and Titus shew , in the which all Ministers are taught their duty in their severall places , who to admonish , and how , who to ordaine , and who to cast out , and how to exercise all other Acts of government , as those of ordination , excommunication and censure &c. and all Ministers are to performe their offices judicially , & authoritatively , not by way of charity which any Christian upon just occasion observing all the vitall circumstances , of a well ordered reproofe and action , as of time place and persons may do ; for there is a very great difference between the admonition of the Ministers and that of the people which lyeth in this , that the Ministers doe what they doe in the Church as Officers and Magistrates and men in place and power ; and the people do it by way of charity and love and only out of Christian duty , and not with any authority they have over the people ; and if their brethren will not heare them , they can goe no farther then to take one or two more with them , and if they will not heare them , then to refer it unto the Church , to tell and informe their severall Presbyteri●s of it , the people are confined within these limets only , and are not to exceede and go out of these bounds . Whereas the Pr●sbyters and Ministers by their place have the power in their hands , to order them and censure them , which the people have not . Neither with any good reason will it follow , if any private Christian may admonish a Minister failing in his duty , that he hath power and authority over him , for this one Member and Brother hath not over another , as having nothing to do with another mans servant , as Saint Paul sufficiently declareth in the fourteenth chapter of his Epistle to the Romans ; and although all Christians are commanded , Coloss . the 3. and in divers other places , to admonish one another , yet this proves not that they have rule , power and authority over them , because the Scripture witnesseth the contrary . But the Ministers and Preachers of the Word , they are to rebuke , to exhort , and admonish , and censure , as Embassadours , Stewards , and Governours appointed by God himselfe over them for this very purpose and end , not onely to beseech and intreate them , but if they be refractory and disorderly to punish and censure them , and that by their place as they are officers and as they have received the Keyes , whereas other Christians do their duty onely out of love as Brethren and not as Magistrates ; So that what the people do , either in admonishing or exhorting it is out of charity ; or what they do in choosing of officers , or casting out of offenders out of the Church , it is either by denomination of them , or in approving and assenting unto what the Presbytery doth ; as the Saints shall judge the earth so that it is not in the peoples power to hinder the casting out of any offender , if he be proved scandalous ; or of receiving any into the Church or into any office of the same , if they be thought fit and worthy of it for their gifts and graces ; for they have no power to do any of these things , for these are all actions of such as are in authority and have the power of ordering things in their hands , which I affirme was never given to the people . And therefore those places quoted by Mr Knollys , to prove the authority of the people over either their Ministers or Fellow-members , are not for his purpose , as b●ing misapplyed and abused , as they are daily by the Independent Brethren ; So that to all rationall and understanding men from this reproofe of Diotrephes given by S. Iohn and this his censuring of him , For usurping sole authority to himselfe and prating malicious words against Saint Iohn and the Presbyters of that Church he writeth to : These two conclusions do necessarily follow . The first ; That all such as affect an absolute jurisdiction in every particular congregation within it selfe Independent , without any reference or relation to a Councell or Colledge of Presbyters , and do speak malicious wordes against their Fellow-ministers and Presbyters , and do cast out whom they please , and bring in whom they will at pleasure upon their own termes , and do rule after an arbitrary way all such violate the Ordinance of God and oppose that Government that he hath established in all churches by his blessed word , and are guilty of the same crime that Diotrephes was , and if they repent not will be severely punished for it : but all the Brethren of the Congregationall way are such . The second is this : That all such Ministers and Congregations as give the authority and power of ruling and ordering the affaires of the Church into the hands of the people , either wholly excluding the Ministers , or joyning the people with them in the Government of the Church , they thus leaving their station and calling wherein they were called , are prevaricators and offenders against divine institution : For God hath given the keyes , the power of order and jurisdiction to the Ministers and Presbyters only , and injoyned the people to obey them : But such are all the Ministers and Assemblies of the congregationall way , as leaving their station and calling wherein they were called : Ergo , they are all prevaricators and offenders against divine institution . And thus much I thought fit by way of answer , to reply unto all that Mr Knollys had to say , against my argument drawn from Diotrephes , and in defence of their congregationall practices ▪ There yet remaines one whibling cavill more in this his answer , that I may not passe by lest he should glory I could not answer it ; I will therefore say something to that and conclude this point and then go on to all his other fond answers to such arguments as he thought himselfe best able to incounter with . His words are these in the conclusion of his Babble . If ( saith he ) nothing of publike concernment ought to be done and transacted without the joynt & mutual agreement , and common consent of the Presbytery , John the Presbyter would not have transgressed so farr , as to take upon himselfe this authority over Diotrephes , to tell the Church of his faults , and to say he would remember him and sharply reprove him , and teach him to prate against the Presbytery with malicious words , which belonged to the Court and Common-councell of Presbyters . Thus Mr Knollys rather chatters than disputes , in making such an inference from his own conceit . And therefore for Answer let Mr Knollys know , that there was no transgression in Saint Iohn against the Presbyters in taking such authority upon himselfe : for S. John was an Apostle , and an universall Pastor , tyed to no one place or flock , but had the same power and authority that Paul and all the other Apostles had over all the Churches , the care of which lay primarily and principally upon them , who were immediately inspired by God , and in all their preachings and writings followed the dictates of his holy Spirit , who spake in and by them ; so that whatsoever they taught or writ was to be the rule of all mens thoughts , words , actions , and governments , and it was their place to give Laws unto all Churches and Ministers in them , what they should do in the ordering and governing of the same ; and therefore S. John had no lesse authority and power over this Church , wherein Diotrephes was an Elder , and in and over all other Churches , then S. Paul and all the other Apostles had in all Churches : Now if S. Paul , could give a Law unto the Church of Corinth , For the casting out of the Incestuous person , and for the carrying of themselves with Order and Decency , in their Assemblies and sharply reproove offenders in that Church , and if all the other Apostles did the like , and took such Authority upon them over all the members of those severall Churches ; and that without any transgression of any divine institution , but with the very good liking and allowance of God himselfe , who writ the Commandements of the Lord to all the Churches , then I say , Saint Iohn transgressed not at all in using his authority and power given him of God over Diotrephes , in telling the Church of his faults , and saying He would remember him , and sharply reprove him ; for this he might well do by his sole Authority , without any offence , as he was an Apostle , for what he did , he did by immediate Revelation and had a warrant for it from Christ himselfe , who sent his spirit to lead him into all truth . And therefore it is a ridiculous if not an impious thing in Master Knollys , to draw such an inference from a phantasie of his own brain , in that he makes no difference between Saint Iohn and another ordinary Presbyter and Minister , and would make that an offence which was none , and infer that Saint Iohn took more upon him than he ought . Besides it had been no transgression in any other Presbyter , if he had writ so to any Presbytery , under which he had been a fellow Presbyter , to inform them of any miscarriage in either Pastor or member of that Church wherein he was an Elder , and if he had said , If I come I will remember his deeds , &c. For in his so speaking , he would assume no more authority to himselfe , then became a Presbyter to take upon him , as both to witnesse to a truth , and to give in evidence of what he knew of such a man to his fellow judges , and then to leave it to the judgement of the Presbytery and Common Councell of Elders , which Saint Iohn did , whose place it was to censure such an offender , and in his so doing he should no way impeach the power and authority of the Court or Common ▪ councell of Presbyters , but rather ratifie and confirme it as all learned men will gather ; For by such words , he declareth that there is a standing Court or Councell there , where offenders are both to be questioned and censured ; for such an expression , If I come I will remember his deeds , sufficiently declareth , that there was power in their hands , and manifesteth , that he was a judge there among the rest , who with others had the hearing of all causes there , and that all businesses of publike concernment ought to be done and transacted by the mutuall and joynt accord and agreement of the Presbytery , and not to be managed by any one singly by himself , or by the people whom God had never given the Keyes unto , nor the power of rule and Government : This I affirme will necessarily ensue and follow , and not that which Mr Knollys vainly intimateth . And I am confident that any judicious Christian upon due deliberation will say the same , and will conclude , That Saint Iohn in his so writing was no offender , though all things of publike concernment in the Church were ever to be transacted by the joynt agreement and common consent of the Presbytery . So that all men that are judicious may plainly behold the futility in both the answers and cavills of this man , and well perceive that he was never cut out for a disputant , or ever fitted for Government in church or State ; who if he might have his own minde would bring in a confusion in both , and violate all order divine and humane , and make the head the foot , and the foot the head . And truly if a man would but consider the manner of Government in their seven new Churches or rather seventy ( for every ten or twelve of them prove a Church ) he should find in them all , so much disorder and discrepancy amongst them , and yet every one of them pretending Divine authority for its particular government , as he would advisedly conclude , That God was never the author of them , for God is a God of order and not of confusion : for never since the world began was there such practice● in any Christian Churches , as are to be found in theirs : And to speake the truth , they are a meere mockery of all government : for every one of those severall Churches be they never so slender and small , assumes an absolute soveranity unto themselves Independent , from all other Churches and Presbytries , from the which there is no appeale , be one never so much wronged . And they are as so many free States , and republicks , every one of them ruling within themselves as absolute Magistracies . And therefore upon all occasions , if any difference arise betweene member and member in those Churches , or betweene Church and Church as often they do , as other Countries and Common-weales send their Embassadours to each other upon any difference , or about states affayres ; and as the House of Commons sends to the House of Lords , and the House of Lords to the House of Commons by their Messengers ; and as all businesses are to be done in the Name of the States , and in the name of either Lords or Commons ; so those little sucking congregations and churches ; though they consist but of 10. or twenty a peece & although never an one of them knowes any more what belongs to government then the horse Master Knollys preaches on when he goeth into the Countrey yet they send their Officers in the name of the Church to any other of their Churches , upon any difference , or about any of their Grolleyes , with as great State and Grander , as if they were very absolute principalities , and they use by the report of those that have seene the manner of their carriage in their imployment in imitation of greatnesse , the same garbe and gestures that Embassadours , or those that carry a Message from the House of Commons , to the House of Lords , usually do ; making their honours and conges , and they are such bunglers at the work as those that have seene them say , it is one of the ridiculosest spectacles that ever was beheld ; for they make a thousand Jackinaps tricks and act their severall parts with such affectation of State , that experienced men and such as well know what belonges to the entertainment of Embassadors , affirme , that they never beheld any thing so fanaticall . It is reported that Iohn Lilburne my Scholler is Master of the Ceremonies amongst them , and teaches them their postures of Court-ship . If ever there were any people in the world that trampled all government both Divine and Humaine under their poluted feete , or ever made a scorne of authority I may truly say the Independents are the ●en , and yet they applaud themselves in all their actions and sticke not to say , by these their doings , they set up the Lord Christ upon his throne in his Kingdome , and in their houses , and compt all those that differ from them of their congregationall way , as enemies of the Lord Iesus , and of his kingdome ; and esteeme of them as of a company of Infidels ; and yet they have neither precept nor president for their so doing , but St. Diotrephes in all the holy Word of God , which constituted a Presbytery in every Church and committed the government of all the congregations under each Presbytery into the hands of a Common-councel and Colledge of Elders , as that Church Saint Iohn write unto can witnesse , which was governed by the conjoynt consent of them all , in which Saint Iohn was a Presbyter , and therefore writ , If he came he would remember Diotrephes deeds : which abundantly declareth that Saint Iohn acknowledged a Court , a settled government in every church , whether the members might have recourse for redresse of any abuse or scandalls and therefore took no more upon him then belonged unto his place : and this shall suffice to have answer'd to Master Knollys his last whibbling cavill , and to have spake of this point of controversie between us in this place . I shall answer methodically to all his other evasions in their due places which the reader shall finde as they are scattered through the booke , for he is very immethodicall in all his pamphlet , where I will set downe Master Knollys his owne words . But in the meane time it is sufficiently confirmed out of the Word God and out of all the Scriptures above quoted , that all the churches we reade of in the New-Testament , were so many corporations in Christs kingdome , which were to be governed by a Common-councell of Presbyteries . And so for many yeeres after the Apostles times they were Governed Communi consilio presbyterorum , as our brethren the Independents do confesse and prove by antiquity and humane authority ; which weapon I wonder they will contend with , in deciding of Gods matters , which are only out of his holy Word to be proved , which is to be the rule of our faith . But it seemes Saint Ambrose his authority pleaseth them well , though if we looke into it , it makes much against them . He lived as the author that cites him , saith , within the fourth Century . His words are these upon the 1. of Timothy . Synagoga & postea ecclesia seniores habuit , quorum sine consilio nihil agebatur in Ecclesia . Quod qua negligentia obsoleverit nescio , nisi doctorum desidia aut magis superbia , dum soli volunt aliquid videri . Take with it his own interpretation . The Iewes Synagogue ( saith he ) and afterwards the Christian church , had Elders , without whose counsell nothing was done in the church , which , by what neglect it grew out of use , I knew not , unlesse it were perhaps the sloth or rather pride of the teachers , whilest alone they would seeme to be some body . However it is acknowledged by their owne testimony , that in the Apostles time and many yeares after the Apostles , nothing was done in the church without the Councell of the Presbyters . So that it is evident the Primitive churches were governed by the joynt and common councell of the Presbytery , and the people had nothing to do with it . We may adde here unto Saint Ambrose , Saint Ieromes testimony , who in his Commentaries upon the first chapter of the Epistle of Paul to Titus , largely declaring himselfe ( as in many other places ) concerning the occasion of the change of that government established by the Apostles , saith , Idem est ergo Presbyter qui & Episcopus & antequam , diaboli instino●u , studia in religione fi●r●nt , & diceretur in populis , ego sum Pauli , ego Apollo , ego autem Cephe , communt Presbyterorum consilio Ecclesiae gubernabantur , &c. In the which words he acknowledgeth by the first institution , all Churches were governed by the common councell of the Presbyters , and not by the advice of the people . Yea the very Canons of the Pope in the first part , and the 95. distinction , giving the reason why the Presbyterian Government came to be changed , and the Hierarchiall was put in the place ; affirmeth , that it was through faction , and for the avoyding of further Schismes and rents in the Church and cities , using the very words before quoted out of Saint Ierome , and confesseth that before that time , the Churches were governed Commum consilio Presbyterorum , not by the people or any one Prelate , but by the Presbytery and their councell . And if humaine authority were needfull in this businesse , I might make a volume with their very expressions , to prove the novelty of the Hierarchicall government , and that of the peoples jurisdiction assuming the Authority of governing into their hands , and the Antiquity of the Presbytery , and that by the enemies own confession . Bet I am resolved to cleave only unto the Word , and sound reason deduced from thence , for the deciding of this controversie , being sorry that there was so much as occasion of naming humane authority in a point of Divinity . As for the Presbyterian government , in the sense that I understand it , there is nothing more cleere to me in all the holy Scripture , Yea the very word and name of a Presbytery signifieth a Magistracy , or Aristocracy , or Signory , or Court ; that is , a Company , or Senate , or Councell of grave wise , and understanding men , invested with authority and power of ruling , ordering , and commanding , and in whose hands the government is put . And as the word is taken in the civill polity and Government , so in the Ecclesiasticall ; By a Presbytery we understand , a Religious , Grave , Solid , Learned , and wise councell of Divines and Ministers , or men of inveterate experience ; and such as know how to Rule and Govern those that are under their command , with wisdome and moderation , and according to the Word of God ; and the which men likewise are invested with Authority and Power for to exercise a jurisdiction over others , and are hereunto called by such as are able to judge and discerne of the sufficiency of their gifts and abilities for this worke , which the ordinary and common people cannot do . And as in the civill State , the Presbyters and Elders of the people , were those that had the rule over them for the common good of them all and for their bodily preservation ; So the Presbyters and Elders in the Church are those that have the rule and government over the Churches for the spirituall good of their souls . And as Kings and Rulers are by a Metaphoricall and borrowed speech called Pastors and Sheepherds of the people , and are said to feed the flocks committed to their charge , by which word is understoode the exercise of all lawfull and moderate authority agreeable to the Law of God over them ; so the Presbyters and Ministers are called the Pastors and Sheepherds , yea , and Stewards over the flocks committed to their charges , and they are commanded to feed them ; by which metaphor they are invested with the authority and power both of preaching and ruling , and have the Government over those flocks put into their hands , which they must alwayes exercise according to Gods Word ; they must feed them and rule them in the Lord , and not after their own wills and pleasures , they may not have dominion over our faith , as Paul saith in the 2. of the Corinthians ; chap. 1. verse 24. But that they should be helpers of our joy ; that is , they may not usurpe an absolute Soveraignty or power over the consciences of the people , as if the spirituall state and welfare of their flocks depended on them , which is onely grounded upon their faith in Jesus Christ ; but as they are the Stewards of God , and Ministers and servants of the Church , so they should comfort them and rejoyce their hearts in the Lord , and establish them in the faith ; and use all the care and diligence that is possible , like good Shepheards , to preserve the flockes committed to their charge , that they straggle and stray not from Christs fold , and run not into the by-wayes and thickets of sinne and errour , and be corrupted with noysome food , and false Doctrine : And if they have any among them that are unruly , that they bring and reduce them into order : or if they have any sicke , feeble , poor or weak , that they cure , releeve , comfort , and restore such : and if they have any that are infected or scabby , that they remove such from the sound , till they be recovered : or if they have any broken or wounded , that they heal and recover them with all lenity and humanity ; and that they should by common ▪ councell govern and order their flocks , and take speciall care that the particular Pastors and Ministers of the severall Congregations and Assemblies under their Presbytery and charge , assume not any sole and soveraign Authority to themselves over the flock , to do any thing of publike concernment , without the joynt consent of that Presbytery or spirituall Corporation , under whose commands they are . And it stands with all reason , that a Common councell , of godly , grave , learned , and experienced ministers , should ever be more able to manage and order a government , then two or three unexperienced men , or two or three hundred young people , of which most Congregations consist , in whom the sap of youth is not yet dryed up ; or if many of them should be of riper years , yet they know little what belongs to government , and therefore they can never be so well able to govern , as men both of known learning , ancient experience , and honesty , and approved judgement and integrity , as a whole Colledge or an Assembly of learned Presbyters commonly are ; who by God himself have the dispensation of the Word and the ordering and ruling of the Church committed unto them , and who in the Preaching of the Word , and the administration of the Sacraments , and in all ordinary acts of worship , and in governing and ruling the flocks committed to their severall charges , are the successors of the holy Apostles . But by the way , an objection is here to be answered unto , made by some of the Independents after this manner . The Elders and Presbyters of the Apostles times , say they , by the imposition of their hands , gave the gift of tongues and prophesie , Acts 19. 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 5. and the 8. 18 and 1 Tim. 4. 14. and healed the sick Iames 5. 14 , 15. according to our Saviours promise Mark. 16. 18. Let , say they , the Presbyters of our time , let them impose their hands upon the sick and heale them , let them by imposing hands upon their disciples inable them on a sudden to speake with strange tongues , and foretell things to come ; and then we will acknowledge them for a true Presbytery , then will they be a right assembly of Elders , and the Apostles successors ; but , if they cannot give to others , nor yet have for themselves in store , any of the true Apostles , any of the right Presbyters gifts and characters , we may not , we dare not acknowledge them as such . These are their formall words in print . Before I come to my answer , I desire there may be speciall notice taken of this Objection , and such like ; for , for ought that I know , if any man will argue afthis manner , all Christian religion may be called in question , and no man will have any Creed or Belief , except he may make his own Articles , as Thomas did , who said , Vnlesse I put my hands into his side and my fingers into the print of the nailes , I will not believe . And as the Iews said unto our blessed Saviour , Thou that savedst others , now save thy self , come down from the Crosse and then we will believe in thee , do this miracle and then thou wilt perswade us . Here we see , they would make their own Articles , or else they would have no Creed . The Jewes had learned this method of disputing from the Devill , who at his meeting of our Saviour Christ , and at his first assault , thus disputed , If thou be the Sonne of God , saith he , and wouldest have the world so believe , and me too , on thee , then command these stones to be made bread , do this miracle first ; but thou canst not do it , Ergo. So in like manner these men argue , except , say they , the Presbyters by the imposition of their hands upon their Disciples , can inable them on a sudden to speake with strange tongues , to foretell things to come , and heal the sicke , &c. we will not acknowledge them to be true Elders : but let them do all these things by the imposition of their hands , and then wee will acknowledge them for a true Presbytery . See the vanity of these men , and the instability of their faith , by their own confession ; miracles will make them believe any thing , if we may credit their own words , though never so contrary to their judgement and to the faith once delivered to the Saints . It is well known to the Learned , that the Apostles and those Primitive christians had extraordinary and wonderfull gifts , that ravisht the world then into admiration ; and it is confest also by all understanding Christians , that those wonder-working miracles were but temporary , as the miraculous feeding of the people with Manna in the Wildernesse , where they were fellow-commoners with the Angels , and continued but till they came into the Land that flowed with Milk and Honey . So those miracles of the Primitive christians continued but for a time , till the Gospell and the truth of the Christian faith and doctrine was confirmed and established , which being once done , and the holy Scriptures which were to be the rule of faith to the end of the world being left to posterity , and to which we are tyed and commanded not to be wise above that which is written , 1 Cor. 4. 6. and forbid in Gal. 1. 8 , 9. to believe otherwise then we have been taught , though the Apostles or an Angell from heaven should teach otherwise ; after , I say , the Doctrine of the Christian Faith and Religion was confirmed , the ordinary working of Miracles ceased . And it is said of Antichrist in 2 Thess . chap. 2. That he shall come with strong delusions and lying wonders , and with all deceiveableness in them that perish , because they received not the love of the truth , that they might be saved . So that I cannot sufficiently wonder , to see the dealing of these men , who in these dayes expect and look for miracles to confirme their faith , when notwithstanding we are forwarned to take heed of all false delusions , and commanded to the contrary . Shew us some miracles , say they , and then we will believe you are true Presbyters . So dealt the Jewes with Christ , What signe shewest thou that wee may beleeve in thee ? But when Christ had shewed them signe upon signe , and miracle upon miracle , were they ever the more convinced ? Did those miracles create beliefe in them ? No surely , but rather hardned them and made them blaspheme . When he cast out Devils , they say he did it by the Prince of Devils . So without doubt , if the Presbyters had those gifts of miracles , that they could gratifie these men with daily prodigies and workes of wonder , they would then say , they came with lying wonders , and with the working of Satan , and they would make the world abhor them the more . There is an old saying , that hee must rise early and never goe to bed , that will please all men : and truly it would be not onely difficult , but an impossible thing , for any State or great Councell , were it never so wise , to please all the people under them . God himselfe , nor Moses , nor Aaron his servants , could please the Israelites though they saw never such wonders continually before their eyes , to confirme their authority ; yea they told Moses and Aaron to their faces , that they tooke too much upon them . And afterwards they cast off Gods own government & God himselfe , as the Lord complains to Samuel , in 1 Samuel , and would set up a governement after the modell of their owne braine , as it is at large set downe in that Booke . And not long after they changed the manner of Gods worship , in Ieroboams time , and taught the feare of God , as the Lord complaineth , Isay 29. after the precepts of men , and rejected Gods commandements , as Christ saith , Matth. 15. and Marke 7. So that what they thought best in their owne eyes , that was ever best pleasing unto them . They would not content themselves with the Written Word , though they were never so often by Moses , and all the rest of the Prophets , commanded to cleave unto it , saying , to the Law and to the Testimony , Isay 8. Even so it is now in these dayes , they content not themselves with that Ordinance that is set downe in the Written Word , but say , Come shew us some miracles , and then wee will beleeve you are a right Presbyterie . Our Saviour speaking to the Jewes concerning Saint Iohn the Baptist and Himselfe , Iohn , saith hee , came neither eating nor drinking , and ye say behold hee hath a Devill ; the Sonne of Man came both eating and drinking , and ye say , hee is a Wine-bibber , a friend of Publicans and Sinners . So that whatsoever method or way God used to convert them , they cavil'd against it , and were never satisfied ; alwayes resisting the Spirit of God , as Stephen told them in Act. 7. So now , in these our times they looke for miracles , and a new way of teaching . But all good Christians are forbid to listen after , or to give heed to miracles : and are sent unto Moses and the Prophets , Luke 16. and are commanded to search the Scripture , John 5. Yea our Saviour himselfe in the person of Abraham , Luke 16. saith , That if men will not beleeve Moses and the Prophets , they will not be perswaded by miracles : and I am confident , that could the Presbyters doe all those miracles these men desire , they would the more reproach them , and exclaime against them , and affirme they wrought by the Devill , as the Jews told our Saviour he did . I must confesse , I am of a contrary opinion to these men , not only in the matter of miracles , but in all external performances ; for I am instructed in the holy scriptures , that the Devill can transforme himselfe into an Angell of light , and that the Deceivers and false Teachers shall come forth in sheeps clothing , and for outward appearance shalequalize , if not exceed , the faithfullest & truest Pastors and Ministers of Christ ; and therefore we are in speciall , commanded to take heed of such : and for my particular , if any men whatsoever of never such seeming sanctity , sufficient abilities , unblameable life , should come forth and teach any other Doctrine of Faith , Manners , or Government , then that I have been taught in the holy Scripture ; and should confirme this their Doctrine with never so many miracles , I will still continue stedfast in the Doctrine of the Apostles , and cleave unto the written Word , and will never beleeve contrary to that , though I should undergoe the greatest misery , or be exposed to the greatest want by it , that any man ever saw : for I know that all these momentary trials and afflictions are not worthy that exceeding weight of glory that shall be revealed . And for this very point of the Presbytery , in that sense I take it , I am so well assured that it is Gods Ordinance , as I am of any point in Religion . But as I said before , if men may argue after this way . The Presbyters in the Apostles times did miracles , and s●ake with strange tongues , and their Schollers and Disciples did the same ; doe you likewise , and then we will acknowledge you to be true Presbyters , otherwise wee will not . Thus the Jewes might have argued against all their Prophets , as against Isaiah , Ieremy , Ezekiel , &c. Moses and Elias fasted forty dayes and forty nights , and did many miracles , do you so , and then we will beleeve you are true Prophets , and sent to us of God , otherwise we will not beleeve you to be true Prophets . Yea all the wicked and ungodly men of these times may argue thus also : God gave unto his Church Apostles , Evangelists , Prophets , &c. and they spake all strange tongues and divers languages , and did many miracles ; but you and your Congregations , have neither Apostles , Prophets , nor Evangelists , nor ye have not the gifts of Tongues , nor yee can do no Miracle : Ergo , you are not the true Church . The Primitive Christians and the servants of God in those times , had the gifts of Tongues and Prophesie , and the holy Ghost came down upon them , and they spake by direction from God his infallible truth and Gospell , whose speeches were not tyed to time , and to one speaker , but many spake one after another by Interpreters , as it is at large set down in the 1. of the Corinthians , chap. 14. vers . 27. 28 , 29 , 30. &c. So that they spake infallible truth by direction from God : But you have none in your Congregations so miraculously inspired with sundry languages , and divers tongues , nor ye do not speake infallible truths by direction from God ; nor you cannot cure diseases nor do miracles : Ergò , your religion is not the same Religion ; nor your Congregations the true Church : shew us these miracles and then we will beleeve you to be the true Church , otherwise we may not , we dare not acknowledge you to be the true Church . Again they may argue thus : The Apostles and Primitive Pastors , and Teachers preached freely , and laboured with their own hands , and were helpfull to the necessities of others , and were not burthensome and exacting from others , and spake ex tempore , by direction from God : but your Ministers in your Congregations do not preach freely , nor labour not with their own hands , nor are not helpfull to to others necessities , but are rather burdensome and exacting from others ; nor they do no miracles , nor speake not immediately by inspiration , and ex tempore ; but by Study and out of their Bookes , and are confined to time , and speake not in strange tongues and languages , one after another by Interpreters . Ergò , Your Ministers are not Gods Ministers , nor your Congregations the true Church , nor your people true Christians ; for you want all those things that the Primitive Christians and the Primitive Churches had . There is a Pamphlet lately come out , and highly esteemed and prised amongst many , full of such consequences as these , which if they hold good against the Presbyters , they may also for ought I know , be of equall validity to overthrow , not onely all Christian Congregations , but indeed all Christian Religion . But briefly to answer . We look upon the Apostles and Primitive Presbyters , as men miraculously and extraordinarily gifted , and as wonder-working men for the confirmation of the truth of the Gospell to all succeeding ages ; and we consider in them and in the Christians of those times , something extraordinary and temporary , as their working of miracles , and speaking of strange tongues , and gifts of healing , &c. And those we conceive were to continue no longer in the church , then for the confirmation of the truth of the Gospel ; Christ himselfe proclaiming those blessed , that believe without seeing of miracles , speaking unto Thomas , Iohn 20. 29. Because thou hast seen me , saith he , thou believest , blessed are they that have not seen , and have believed . So that miracles now are not ordinary , and we are tied to the written Word . But we consider likewise in the Apostles and Primitive Presbyters , that that was permanent and to continue in all Ministers and Presbyters in succeeding ages to the end of the world , and that was the power of order and preaching , and the power of jurisdiction , that is of ruling ( which is not denied by the most learned of the Independents themselves ) and this I have proved by the Word of God , to be transacted over to all Christian Churches , whose Presbyters have that power given unto them ; neither will the Learned Brethren deny it , whatsoever the ignorant may do . Yea , the very name of a Presbytery ( as I said before ) if we look through the whole Scripture , signifieth a Magistracy , or Signiory , or Corporation invested with authority of governing and ruling ; and such a counsell and company of men , as upon whom the government under Christ is laid , and to be extended so far , as their jurisdiction extendeth , and as far as by common consent it may make for the good and edification of the church , and for the safety of the same . And such was the government of all those churches of the New Testament , which were as so many Committees , their limits and bounds prefixed them , as at this dayall Committees through the Kingdom have in their severall Hundreds , Rapes , Wapentakes , and Cities , to whom the ordering and government of those places that are under them , are committed ; so that all that is done or transacted , must be done by the joynt consent , and councell of the whole Committee , not any particular man or any two of them severally considered by themselvs , can make an order ; but that order onely is binding which is made by the joynt consent and common agreement of them all , or the greatest part of them assembled together . Even so all those particular Congregations that are within the compasse and jurisdiction of the severall Presbyteries , are to be ordered and governed by the common and joynt councell of the severall Presbyters , or the greater part of them . For this was the order the Apostles established , appointing in every City a Presbytery ; and when they had so ordered the Churches , they set them all to their severall imployments , the Presbyters to command , and all the people and particular Assemblies and Congregations under them , to obey ; neither is it ever found in the holy Scriptures , that the people were joyned with the Presbyters in their Commission . So that they that oppose this government , resist Gods Ordinance . And if we looke into all the Epistles writ by the Apostles to the severall Churches , we shall finde in them , That they enjoyne all the severall Congregations to yeeld obedience to their Pastors and Rulers over them , and signifie unto them that they owe unto them double honour , especially such as labour in the Word and Doctrine ; that is , they must yeeld unto them , not onely due reverence and subjection , and obedience to their councell and just commands in the Lord ; but that they should also afford them the honour of maintenance , and take order there be a sufficient and competent , yea , an honourable allowance for their support ; and that as they minister to them spirituall food for their soules , they should likewise minister unto them all things necessary for the maintenance of them and their Families , that they may comfortably and without solicitous care , follow their holy imployments and wait upon their severall Ministeries . So that the place and imployment of the Presbyters , is to teach and rule the people ; and this is their proper worke , and peculiarly belongs unto them ; and the imployment and place of the severall congregations under them , is to hear and obey : and therefore if the severall congregations do assume unto themselves the power of ruling , they take more upon them then by God is allowed them : and the Presbyters in yeilding unto it , reject their own right , and devest themselves of that authority that God hath put into their hands ; and by so doing in time may not onely bring confusion into the Church , but to all those Countries where such usurpations are tolerated . I cannot but speake my conscience in this point : And truly , very reason dictates unto a man , that they only should have the authority of commanding and ruling over the Churches , to whom the power of the Keyes is given . Now it is given only to the Ministers and Presbyters , as we see it in Iohn 20. 21. and Matth. 18. 15 , 16 , 17 , 18. Where our Saviour Christ established a standing government , to be continued to the end of the World , the violating and the overthrowing of the which , was the cause of all those confusions , both in doctrine and manners that is now come upon the world ; and was the cause , not only of the rise , but the growth of Antichrist . And the reducing of it again into the Church , and the re ▪ stablishing of it , will be the confusion of that Man of Sin , and of all the Antichristian-brood , and be a meanes of establishing truth and peace through the Christian world . But it will not be amisse a little to consider that place in Matth. 18. If thy Brother , saith Christ shall trespasse against thee , go and tell him of it between thee and him alone : if he shall heare thee , thou shalt gaine thy brother ; but if he will not heare thee , then take with thee one or two more , that in the mouth of two or three witnesses , every word may be established . And if he shall neglect to heare them ; then tell it unto the Church : but if he neglect to heare the Church , let him be to thee as a Heathen man and a Publican . Verily , verily I say unto you , whatsoever ye shall binde on earth , shall be bound in heaven , and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth , shall be loosed in heaven . In these words our Saviour Christ has respect unto the order and custome of judicature in those times in censuring mens manners and doctrines , which among the Jewes was ordered and administred by an assembly and counsell of learned , experienced , and judicious men , and by a Presbytery , Consistory , or Colledge of able men for government , chose and selected out of the people for this very purpose , by such as could judge and discerne of their abilities : the which assembly and company , is by Christ himself called a Church , because it did represent the Church , and in this place Christ did establish the like to be continued in the Christian church to the end of the world , making his Apostles this representative body , and their successors all the godly and holy Ministers and Presbyters , and gives unto them the same power and Authority , to judge and determine of all things belonging unto faith and manners that was observed in the Jewish church , in all Ecclesiasticall Discipline . For otherwise , the Christian church should be inferior to that of the Jews , if they had not the same Priviledges for the censuring of manners and Doctrines , and the same power of jurisdiction and ruling that they had . Now all power of jurisdiction among the Jews , was exercised not by the promiscuous multitude , or by the whole congregation , nor by any particular man , nor by two or three ( as the place above specifies ) but by an Assembly , Senate , Councell , or Presbytery , of understanding men assigned to that purpose , which our Saviour himself calleth a Church ; & this government established in the Christian church , are the severall Presbyteries , where all things are transacted by common and joynt consent : and this was the practise of the Apostles at Ierusalem , who did all businesse of publike concernment , by common and joynt consent , as is manifest , in the first chap. of the Acts , in chusing of an Apostle in Iudas his place , and in the 5. chap. in censuring Annanias and Saphira and in the 6. chap. in chusing Deacons , and in the 15. chapter in determining the question there in hand , all in a Presbyterian way and by common consent . And this is that government , that God hath commanded to be perpetuated to the end of the world , in these words ; Whatsoever ye shall binde on earth , shall be bound in heaven , and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven . So that the Presbyters onely have the power of the keyes , & it is their place only to ordain Ministers and Church Officers , ( whatsoever Authority the people may exercise in the chusing of them ) as Paul writes unto Timothy and Titus , and they onely are to judge and determine and to censure in matters of manners and doctrine , and the people are to allow and approve it according to the Word of God. Yea the very Synagogues of the Jews , which were the same that our churches are , were governed by a Presbytery , ( as our brethren acknowledge ) called by the name of the Rulers of the Synagogue , who governed by joynt and common councell ; as is evident and manifest , in that there were superior and inferior Judges ▪ Commanders , and Rulers , according as their yeares , gravity and wisdome made them more emninent then others , and venerable to the people : as may appeare in many places as Acts 18. ver . 8. It is said there , That Crispus the chiefe Ruler of the Synagogue beleeved with all his houshould . So that if there were a chiefe Ruler , or Iudge , or a President ; there must of necessity be a Councell or Segniory of inferiour ones , that had Rule and Authority over others as well as he : and where there is a chiefe Justice or Judge , there are other Judges joyned with him , as all reason perswades , and there must needs be a Court of Judicature , where all things are transacted , by conjoynt and common consent and agreement : and so it was in the Synagogues of the Jewes , who were subject to , and ordered by the determinations and abitrement of their Rulers and Governours . So that the severall Churches or Synagogues under the Jews were in subjection to those Rulers , and were governed according as by common councell they ordered . And Mat. the 5. vers . 22. And behold there came one of the Rulers of the Synagogue , whose name was Iairus ▪ here was a speciall Ecce added to take notice , that a great man , and one in authority , came unto Christ , and that in a publick way , and one of the Rulers of the Synagogue . So that wee may observe the people in every Synagogue were governed and commanded by their Rulers , and they were to yeeld obedience unto them , and were not joyned with them in Commission , but stood to their determination , as all men use to doe in Courts of Judicature , that appeal unto them for justice . And this custome and manner of government was transacted over to the Christian Churches ; and those that were called Rulers among them , are among Christians sometimes called Presbyters , sometimes Guides , sometimes Rulers , and by Christ himselfe and by his Apostles , are appointed over all Christian Churches as so many corporations ; to which all the Assemblies and Congregations under them , and committed to their charge , are to yeeld obedience and submission , in whatsoever they command in the Lord , and according to his blessed Word ; for that must be the rule both of their commanding and of the peoples obeying . And this Presbyterian government , is that manner and way of ruling all Assemblies and particular Congregations under it , that God hath appointed in his Church , to be continued to the end of the world ; the which whosoever resisteth , resisteth the Ordinance of God. And this shall suffice to have spoken in generall , in way of proofe , That all Churches wee have mention of under the New Testament , were Aristocratically and Presbyterially governed , that is , were under the Government of a Colledge or Assembly of Presbyters . And now I come to prove in order the foure Propositions or conclusions I undertooke to make good . The first was , That there were many Congregations and severall Assemblies in the Church of Ierusalem , in the which they had all acts of worship , and did partake in all Ordinances of Church-Fellowship ; and that before the persecution we reade of Act. 8. and under the persecution , and after the persecution . And for the proofe of this Proposition , and every branch of it , I will first produce such places of Scripture as make for the manifestation of the truth , and from thence frame and forme my Arguments , Mat. 3. ver . 1 , 2. 5 , 6. In those dayes came Iohn the Baptist , preaching in the wildernesse of Iudaea , and saying , Repent ye , for the Kingdome of heaven is at hand . Then went out to him Ierusalem , and all ●udaea and all the Region round about Iordan , and were baptized of him in Iordan confessing their sinnes . The Baptisme of Iohn , as all the learned know , was the same with that of the Apostles , for he preached the Baptisme of Repentance for the Remission of sinnes , and Baptized all that came to him ▪ into Iesus Christ , saying unto the people , That they should beleeve on him which should come after him , that is , on Christ Iesus , Act. 19. ver . 4. Hee had his Commission also from God as well as the Apostles , and Baptized Christ himselfe ; hee preached also the Gospel and the Kingdome of the Messiah as well as the Apostles ; and had many honourable Testimonies from Christ himselfe ; as , That he was the greatest Prophet that ever was borne of woman , and That he was a bright shining light , and That he was his witnesse ; and many other Encomiums and praises did Christ give of him , to ratifie his Authority , and to shew that he was sent of God , and that he was that Elias that was to come before the Messiah : And all the people owned , and tooke him for a man sent of God , and Ierusalem went out to him , and all the Region round about , and were Baptized of him . In these words wee find that the people of Ierusalem were all turned Christians , and made members of the Christian Church , and were beleevers . For which way soever the word Ierusalem be taken , it signifieth a numberlesse multitude of men , or an innumerable company . For if we consider Ierusalem at this time , she was a most populous City : the Historians that write of that age , relate , That she had somtimes in her , no lesse then eleven or twelve hundred thousand ; but let it be taken that these were but six hundred thousand inhabitants , it is a vast multitude , and yet seldome was there lesse inhabitants in Ierusalem , if any beleife may be had to Historians ; for at that time it was one of the Metropolis Cities of the world , and the glory of Nations and the joy of the whole Earth ; and besides there was then great expectation , as we may read , Luke 19. 11. That the Kingdome of God should immediately appear , and all the Jewes out of all Nations where they were scattered , now repaired to Jerusalem , and returned into their own countrey , expecting the Messiah . So that at this time , we cannot conceive but that there were infinites of people in Jerusalem , and it is said , That Jerusalem went out and was baptized by Iohn . By Jerusalem , here metonimycally the place is taken for the people . Now when it is said that a City goeth out , it is to be understood either of the whole people , Man , Woman , and Child , old and young , with all the inhabitants ; as many times it happens , in great Earth-quakes , or some Pestilence or Inundation , that all the Inhabitants are forced to leave a City , and to seek some other habitation , or of some great part ; but we cannot conceive the going out of Jerusalem to Iohn Baptist in that large sense and expression ; so that in this place it must be taken Synecdochycally , and we are to understand a great part , or a chiefe part for the whole : as when a City is said to entertaine a King , or to go out to meet a King , here it is to be understood principally of the chief Officers , as the Lord Mayor , Aldermen , and the Common-councell , and all their severall Companies , and chiefe Captaines and Commanders , with all their magnificence ; so that in this notion the common people and the ordinary Citizens are not thought on , or at least are not numbred . As when JESUS was borne in Bethlem , and the Wise Men came to Jerusalem , to enquire where they should finde him that was borne King of the Iewes , that they might worship him , for they had seen his Star , it is said , That when Herod heard these things , He and all Ierusalem was troubled with him . Here , by all Ierusalem , is to be understood all the chiefe Officers and Courtiers ; for the common people were glad of it ; for that was the day they had long looked for , and rejoyced at : but Herod being an Usurper and a Tyrant , and all his Nobles , Peers , and Great men being confederate with him , and adjutors in his usurpation and tyranny , and conceiving that Christ was an earthly Monarch ; and that after the manner of the Kings of the Earth , he would not onely pull down the Usurper , but likewise call all them in question , as guilty of High Treason , and cut them of as complices and abettors ; this made them tremble and feare ; and because it was the generall fear of all the great men in Jerusalem , and of all the Courtiers and Officers under Herod , therefore it is said , that Herod and all Ierusalem with him was troubled . So that Tyrants and their complices never have any reall peace . But in this sense also it cannot be understood , that Ierusalem went out to John and was baptized ; it must therefore by a Senecdoche be taken for all the common people promiscuously , or for a mighty multitude of all sorts , and of all ranks of people , and of all professions , as Publicans , Souldiers , and the ordinary Inhabitants : and in this sense the word Jerusalem must be taken for a mighty multitude of men in Jerusalem that were made Christians ; for otherwise the Evangelist would have said , many went out of Ierusalem also , as well as out of other places : but in saying that all Iudea , and all the Regions round about , and Jerusalem went out ; this metaphoricall expression doth signifie , That an infinite number of people in Ierusalem it selfe , were made Christians and Members of the Church ; and that it is so to be understood , the places following will evidently evince it : for in Matth. 11. 12. our Saviour saith , That from the dayes of Iohn the Baptist , untill now , the Kingdome of Heaven suffereth violence , and the violent take it by force , then the which , there could nothing be spoke more emphatically , to set forth the growth and increase of Beleevers , and the multitude of Christians , as Luke also in ch . 16. v. 16. expresseth saying , That the Law and the Prophets were untill Iohn ; since that time the kingdome of God is preached , and every man presseth in to it : that is , the generality of the people became beleevers , and were baptized : as it is yet more evident from Luke 7. 29 , 30. by the very testimony of our Saviour , who saith , That all the people that heard him , and the Publicans , justified God , being baptized with the Baptisme of Iohn ; but the P harisees and Lawyers rejected the councell of God against themselves , being not baptized of him . So that by the witnesse of our Saviour Christ , except the Pharisees and the Priests ; all the people , or the generality of the people in Ierusalem were baptized , and became Christians , and imbraced the Gospell : and this was accounted among the miracles that was wrought in those dayes , and as a thing of speciall observation , and as a matter of wonder ; as we may see in the message our Saviour Christ sent unto Iohn the Baptist by his Disciples , when he bad them relate unto their Master , what they had seen and heard in the 22. Verse ; Tell him saith he , That the blinde see , the lame walke , the Leapers are cleansed , the deafe heare , and the dead are raised , and the poore receive the Gospel ; this I say , was among the miracles , that the generality of the poore imbrace the Gospel , and were baptized and made Believers : which must needs import a mighty multitude , and a great increase , or else it would not have been a thing of such wonder , and have been sent unto Saint Iohn as a miraculous thing ; and a thing worthy to prove Christ himself to be the Messiah looked for ; for no meere man could have wrought such a work , asto draw the hearts of the the people to imbrace the Gospel , but the Messiah himself ; For Paul may plant , and Apollo may water , 1 Cor. 3. but God only the Messiah , must give the increase ; he must move the heart to imbrace the Gospel , and to believe ; for faith is the gift of God , Ephes . 2. and therefore this was the wonder that the generality of the people did believe and were baptized , and this was the sole work and operation of Christ , and therefore proved him to be the Prophet they looked for . And it stands with all reason that there were infinites of people in Jerusalem that believed ; and that Iohn was greatly magnified of the people , and publickly followed , because for a time , Herod himselfe countenanced Iohn Mark. 6. 20 ▪ and feared him , knowing that he was a just man and an holy , and observed him , and when he heard him , he did many things , and heard him gladly . And although we read not that he was baptized by Iohn , yet he highly honoured him ; till Iohn reproved him , and told him , it was not lawfull for him to have his Brothers Wife . And in this interim of his seeming favour , we may conceive , that the Courtiers also and the great men would do as their Master did : for if we observe the manner of all Courts to this day , what the King does the Courtiers also do ; if the King laugh , though there be perhaps a cause of mourning , they will all laugh ; and if he frownes , though there be a cause of cheerfulnesse and smiling , they will al frown ; and if the King commends any man , they will all admire him ; and if he hears any Minister gladly , they will all heare him willingly : and if he when he is reproved , be angry and displeased , and will cut off his head whom he had so honoured but the day before , then all the Courtiers , they will helpe him , and further the worke : as we may see , not only in the example of Iohn Baptist , but in Haman ; as soon as the King frownd upon him , the Courtiers they covered his face , and up they trussed him ; be it right or wrong it is all one to Courtiers . But in that interim , I say , that Iohn Baptist was in favour with the King , without doubt it animated the people greatly to follow him , and by hearing him , many thousand Saints were converted , and the multitudes of them were numerous , as is manifest from Matth. 14. 5. for it is said , That when he would have put him to death he feared the multitude , because they counted him as a Prophet . Here are two observables , the one , That he that feared not God , was afraid of his servants . The second , that it was a mighty multitude of Believers that were in Ierusalem ; for a few could not have awed the King and kept him in feare : and therefore he was forced to defer the cutting off of his head , till he had got to him all the strength of Galilee , all his Lords and high Captains , and his chiefe Estates and Commanders , Mark 6. 21. And when he thought himselfe strong enough , then he exercised his tyranny . Yea , when Iohn was taken away , yet the multitudes of the people continued stedfast in the faith , as we may see in Luke 20. by the confession of the very enemies : for when our Saviour asked them concerning the baptisme of Iohn , Whether it was from Heaven or of Men ? And they reasoned among themselves , saying , if we shall say from Heaven , he will say , why then believed ye him not ? and if we say of Men , all the people will stone us , for they be perswaded that Iohn was a Prophet . Here by the confession of the very enemies , all the people , or the generality of them were Believers ; and it must of necessity be a mighty multitude , that kept all the Priests and all the Elders that had all the power in their hands , in awe , that they durst not so much as open their mouthes against Iohn the Baptist . From all which places , and many more that might be produced , to prove , That there were so many Believers in Ierusalem as could not all meet in one place or roome , or in one Congregation , to partake in all acts of worship ; I thus argue . Where there was an infinite multitude , or a mighty City of Believers , there they could not all meet together in one place or roome , or in one Congregation , for the enjoying of all acts of worship , and for edification ( which is required in the Churches , 1 Cor. 14. 26. ) but of necessity must be distributed into severall Congregations and Assemblies , and divers divisions , that they might be all edified , and partake in all Ordinances . But in the Church of Ierusalem , by the very baptisme and preaching of Iohn , there were infinite multitudes , and a very City of Believers . Ergo , they could not all meet together in one place or roome , or in one congregation for the enjoying of all acts of worship , and for edification ( which is required in the Church of God ) but of necessitie must be distributed into severall congregations and assemblies , and divers divisions , that they might all be edified , & partake in all ordinances . For the major , it is cleare , by the very light of nature , and all reason : for there is no one place or house that can contain a whole City , or infinite multitude of Believers : and if any great place could containe them , they could not all be edified and partake of all the acts of worship . For if the very great raw-bon'd building of Pauls it self were cramm'd full of people , and had a Preacher of the strongest lungs in the City , half the people could not hear and be edified , as daily experience telleth us ; so that of necessity , if they would be edified , and partake in all the Ordinances , they must be distributed into divers congregations , and severall assemblies . I am most assured that there were such multitudes of Believers in Jerusalem , that five such buildings as Pauls could not have contained their very bodies within their wals , much lesse receive them , or entertaine them for edification . So that for the major , I am confident there is no intelligible man will doubt of it . For the Minor , it is manifest from the places above produced ; for our Saviour saith , excepting the Pharisees and the Lawyers ( which were but a little handfull ) all the people , or the generality of them , justified God , and were baptized , and were Believers . So that the conclusion from the premises doth necessarily follow . But from the former places I argue yet further after this manner . Where there was such an infinite company and multitude of Christians and Believers , as kept a tyrannicall King in awe , and all the Magistrates and Elders in whose hands was all the power and authority ; and struck such a fear and terror into them all , that they durst not exercise their cruelty and tyranny over them , though they were their inveterate enemies , and desired it : There of necessity the number of the Believers must be so great , as they could not all meet together in one place or roome , or in one congregation , for the enjoying and partaking in all the acts of worship ; but if they would be edified , must be distributed into divers congregations and assemblies . But in Ierusalem there were such an infinite company and multitude of Christians and Believers , as kept Herod himself , the tyrant , in awe , all the Magistrates and Elders , in whose hands was all the power and authority ; and struck such a feare and terror into them , that they durst not exercise their cruelty and tyranny over them , though they were their inveterate enemies , and desired it . Ergo , of necessity the number of the Believers was so great , as they could not all meet together in one place or roome , or in one congregation , for the enjoying and partaking in all acts of worship ; but if they would be edified , must be distributed into divers Congregations and Assemblies . For the Major and Minor of this Syllogisme , besides the force of reason and common understanding , which were enough to convince any rationall creature of the truth of them : the holy Scripture it self ( as from the places above specified , is manifest ) proves them . So that none can doubt of the truth of the conclusion , but such as will call in question truth it selfe . I might out of the severall places above mentioned draw many more Arguments to prove the conclusion ; but because I study brevity , these for the present shall serve , to prove , That by the very baptisme and Ministery of S. Iohn the Baptist , there were such an infinite company of Believers in the Church of Ierusalem , as they could not al meet together in one place or congregation , for the injoying of all the Ordinances . To these first arguments of mine , by which I proved that by the very Baptisme of S. Iohn there were more converted and made Christians and believeres in Ierusalem then could meete in any one place or Congregation , Master Knollys answers by denying the minor of my Syllogismes , and I. S. by denying they were Christians as we shall see . I will therefore reply unto them both , in order , beginning first with Master Knollys , whose words are these pag. 8. I do deny the minor proposition of these arguments saith he . Neither hath the Doctor proved , that there was an infinite number of beleevers , nor a very City of beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem . The Scriptures quoted by the Doctor speak no such thing . Those places in Matthew , Mark and Luke , tell us of very many who were baptized by Iohn , and by Christs Disciples ; but doe not declare how many of those baptized persons were of the Church of Ierusalem ; and the Scripture witnesseth , Act. 9. 31. That there were Churches through all Iudaea , as well as in Ierusalem ; and for ought I know , or the Doctor either , many of those baptized persons might be in those Churches , yea the most of them , and but a few in Ierusalem ; it may be no more but those hundred and twenty mentioned , Act. 1. 13 , 14 , 15. to whom were added about three thousand soules , who continued in the doctrine of the Apostles , and in breaking of bread and prayers , Acts the 2. 42 , 43 , 44. This is all Master Knollys hath to say by way of answer for the enervating of the strength of my Arguments and Reasons , by which I proved there were more converted by Iohns Ministerythen could meet in any one place in Ierusalem . Now here before I come to reply , I referre my selfe to the judicious Reader , whether from the forgoing places , which I quoted out of the Holy Word of God , & from the Reasons and Arguments deduced out of it , it was not sufficiently evinced , That there were an infinite number of beleevers , and a very Citie of them in the Church of Ierusalem , and therefore more then could meet in any one place or Congregation : I demand I say of any intelligible Christian , whether those Scriptures I cited with the Arguments deduced from them doe not speake and perswade such a thing ? I am confident all such as know any thing in learning , will say they doe . But for answer , Master Knollys himselfe , grants that very many were baptized by Iohn and Christs disciples , and none were baptized then but Beleevers , as he and all the Independents doe confesse and acknowledge ; but saith he , the Scriptures quoted , do not declare how many of those baptized persons were of the Church of Ierusalem ; for the Scriptures witnesse that there were Churches through all Iudaea , as well as in Ierusalem , and for ought ( saith he ) I know or the Doctor either , many of those baptized persons might be of those Churches , yea the most of them , and but a few in Ierusalem , it may be no more but those hundred and twenty , mentioned , Acts the 1. vers . 13 , 14 , 15. If a bare denyall of any Argument with a senselesse Reason or two , and an it may be , were a sufficient conviction of a truth , then Master Knollys would be a very precious Disputant , and to say Bellarmine thou lyest , would be enough to confute all the Papists : But in matters of this nature and of so high concernement , there is more required then bare denials , and vaine evasions and may-bee's : And therefore I will take this liberty to tell Master Knollis , that hee trifles in Divinity , and deales not like a serious nor learned Christian , nor to the purpose : for this is not in question betweene mee and the Independents , how many of those baptized persons through all Iudaea and the Regions round about were resident in the Church of Ierusalem ? This I say was never controverted betweene us ; for no man that I know of , ever doubted but that all those that came out of al Iudaea and the Regions round about to the Ministry & Baptism of Iohn and Christs Disciples , returned home againe to their severall habitations , and there remained and aboad , as those that came out of Ierusalem to Iohns Preaching and Baptisme , after they were baptized , repaired to their severall houses & habitations in that Citie , and remained there waiting upon the publick Ordinances ; this I conceive all men that have any understanding beleeve . And the Scripture sufficiently declareth , that the multitudes of Beleevers that came out of Ierusalem and were baptized by Iohn the Baptist , ( to speake nothing now of the Apostles and seventy Disciples ) were numberlesse , and therefore were more then the hundred and twenty names ; yea they were innumerable , & therefore more then could meet in any one place or a few . And if the Reader will but looke backe to the Scriptures above quoted , out of which I framed my Arguments , and consider the insuing Scriptures and Reasons from them , he will easily perceive that Master Knollys is a meere Quibler , and a man no way fit for either disputation , or any serious imployment . The Evangelists speaking of the great concourses of people that came from all quarters to the Preaching and Ministery of Iohn , and to be baptized , to avoid mistakes , doe specifie the severall places out of which they came , with the numbers indefinitly set down that came from every place , saying , There went out to him Ierusalem , and all Iudaea , and all the Regions round about Iordan , and were baptized of him in Iordan confessing their sinnes , Mat. the 3. Here it is abundantly declared that it was an infinite company that came from Ierusalem , as by the word Ierusalem is sufficiently manifest , being metaphorically set downe and taken in that place ( as I said before ) synechdochically for a mighty part and multitude of people that came out of that City . And Saint Marke confirmes this , chap. 1. ver . the 5. who saith , there went out unto him all the land of Judea , and they of Jerusalem , and were all baptized of him in the river Jordan confessing their sinnes . And the same is further ratified by the words of our Saviour , Luke 7. 29. 30. who saith , that all the people that heard him , and the Publicans justified God , being baptized by the Baptisme of John , but the Pharisees and Lawyers rejected the Councell of God against themselves , being not baptized . So that now by the mouth of three witnesses and by the testimony of Christ himselfe it is sufficiently proved , That if Jerusalem and all the people of Jerusalem went out and were baptized by John ( except the Pharisees and Lawyers ) that there was an innumerable multitude , and therefore more then could possibly meet in any one place or a few , and many more then the hundred and twenty names spoke of in the first of the Acts ; which fond conceit of Mr Knollys is yet more evidently refuted out of the second of the Acts , where it is related that there were at that time Inhabitants and Dwellers at Jerusalem devout men , that is , true Worshippers and Beleevers from out of all the Nations under Heaven . To say nothing of Nicodemus , and of Joseph of Arimathea and of many other Rulers , and of all the people and children that cryed Hosanna and that received Christ into the City with all their acclamations and believed in him ; the most of which were Inhabitants aud Dwellers in Jerusalem and such as had their aboad there , so that by this I have now said , the folly and vanity of Mr Knollys and his cavill is apparantly manifest , and this truth sufficiently clear to all , that there was an infinite number and a very City of Beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem , besides those that were of the other Churches in Judea , and therefore could not all meet in one place : For the Scripture saith that Ierusalem and they of Ierusalem went out and were baptized by Iohn the Baptist ; and therefore all good Christians I am confident will ever beleeve the Scriptures and give credit unto the word of God rather then unto Mr Knollys ; and if they will beleeve the Scripture of truth , then they will not onely beleeve there was an infinite number and a very City of Beleevers in Ierusalem , and that by the very ministry and preaching of Iohn , but that Mr Knollys is a very wicked and blasphemous creature as who giveth the spirit of God the lye and opposeth also all good reason : For the spirit saith Jerusalem and all they of Ierusalem , except the Pharisees and Lawyers , were baptized by John , and all these were inhabitants at Jerusalem ; and Mr Knollys affirmeth the contrary and confuteth all the Evangelists ; whether therefore he be not a very precious disputant I refer it to the judgement of all sober-minded Christians that love sincerity , truth and plain dealing . And this might suffice to shew the vanity and wickednesse of the man and what a vain caviller he is , that thus abuseth pretious time to abuse himselfe and miserably to delude ignorant people : But for the farther confirmation of my Minor , I will produce one or two testimonies more out of the eleventh of Mark , where there is mention made of two great companies and parties of beleevers and those all Inhabitants in Ierusalem , the one of them that followed Christ and beleeved in him , at which the Scribes and Pharisees were offended , and sought how they might destroy him ; but saith the Scripture , they feared him , because all the people were astonished at his doctrine , that is , they beleeved it : verse 18. another company was those that were the Disciples of Iohn the Baptist , and they accompted Iohn a Prophet indeed , as all the men of Ierusalem did , verse 32. and either of these companies were so great and powerfull as they kept all Christs enemies in awe , so that they were affraid of the people of either party , and therefore there was then a very City of believers in Ierusalem and they Inhabitants , and that in Christs time , and they had been baptized by Saint Iohn , for all Ierusalem went out and were baptized by him ; So that now I assure my selfe every but ordinary understanding man will gather that there was an innumerable multitude of believers in Ierusalem , and more than could meet in any one place , or a few if they had been put together , when there were two such potent parties there , as either of them kept the very enemies of Christ , the Magistrates and Rulers , yea Herod ▪ himselfe in awe , which a few thousands could never have done ; and all these were Inhabitans of Ierusalem and well known to the Scribes and Pharisees to be Christs and Iohns Disciples , and all beleevers , as wee shall more abundantly prove in the following discourse ; and therefore my Minor doth now stand firme , That there were more beleevers in Ierusalem , and that by the very ministry and baptisme of John , then could meet in any one place or a few , and that there w●● an infinite number of beleevers and a very City of beleevers , which Mr Knollys denyeth and in so doing gives the spirit of God the lys and contradicts the holy Scripture and opposeth all sound reason , and all this to maintain the fonde opinion of Independency . And this shall serve to have spoke by way of answer to what Mr Knollys had to reply to my first arguments concerning the multitudes baptized by John the Baptist . I will now give an answer to what I. S. hath to say against this argument , of whom I shall take the liberty by way of preface before I come to my Reply , to speak something , and yet no more then shall be thought fit and agreeable to sound reason , and so much the rather I do it , because this man greatly vanteth himselfe , and because his answer is highly esteemed of amongst many of the congregationall way , who I confesse are much to be blamed that they suffer themselves to be deluded with such fellowes , never examining their writings , but taking all for oracles they vent , and thinking it enough that there is any thing come out against a Presbyterian in way of answer , though there be nothing more destructive to their own opinion , as I am confident it will appear to all judicious men , that these answers of Mr Knollys , my Brother Burton and this I. S. are . And for I. S. I may say thus much of him that he is yet vainer then Mr Knollys in his answers ; for he candidly denyeth upon all occasions the Minors of my Syllogismes , and then gives some sucking reasons for this his denyall ; but this I. S. hath nothing of a Scholler in him ; for all good Schollers and Disputants will set down the arguments of their adversaries in their full strength and as they are in the Copy , and then either deny the Major or Minor , or both ; or distinguish , and after they have shewen the fallacyes of the arguments , if there be any , then by their art and learning they will shew the weaknesse of them , and so evade the dinte and force of them ; this I say is the method , not onely of all accurate Disputants , but of every ordinary jangler , if he , at least , pretends any thing to learning : But I. S. hath not so much ingenuity in him as to do any thing of all this ; but first sets down my arguments in an obscure way and to the halves , so that the unlearned Reader cannot perceive the strength of my reason ; and then in a confused manner gives in his answer in the name of all the Independents , which upon due examination I am confident will appear to all learned men to be nothing but a packe of blasphemies and contradictions as being a meer fighting against the truth and a giving of the spirit of God the lye , as in the sequell will be evidenced . Our Saviour in the 3 of John verse 20. 21. saith , That hee that doth the works of darknesse , shunns the light ; but he that doth truth , cometh to the light , &c. Truly I may justly accuse I. S. and his fraternity of this sin , that they not only shun the light themselvs but hinder others also from it , and do whatsoever in them lies to keep men from the knowledg of the truth and from prying into their errors , that by this means they may atttain unto their own ends , and therefore they not onely disp●rage all the Presbyterians , and with their calumnies labour to make them odious to the people as so many railors and persecutors , for so they call us , that they may neither hear their Sermons , nor read any books written by them , or any thing penned against their Novelties by those of that party ; and all this to abuse the simple people , that by this their art they may with-hold the truth from them in unrighteousnesse : And in this facultie are all the Independents very expert who cunningly either pick and choose or curtalize and adulterate all a guments that are brought against them , or else totally passe them over with slightings , when they can no way with any reason reply unto them . And as they are generally void of all good learning and sciences , so there is neither ingenuity , candor or honesty amongst the most of them , these excellent graces and vertues being now strangers to those of the congregationall way , amongst the which fraud and juglings and all manner of dissimulation and railing are the only master pieces of their craft , by which they maintain and uphold their way and foment their errors ; for should they deal fairly with us and not disswade the people from reading our books and hearing our godly and painfull Ministers , and would they but set down our arguments and reasons in their full strength , the people would not onely speedily see their errors but relinquish them . And therfore they all take speciall care to keep the people in ignorance ; and amongst those Artificers and Craf●s-men of that new Goddesse that Diana of Independency , this J. S. though in all good learning he be a very novice , yet in this craft of jugling he is pretily expert . And that all men may see I do not falsly accuse him , I will first set down the sum of my arguments taken from the multitudes baptized by Iohn the Baptist , and and then set down in what terms he delivers them , with his vain and impious answer to them . The summe of my Arguments is this . Where there was an infinitemultitude , or a mighty City of beleevers , there they could not all meete together in one place or roome or in one congregation to injoy all acts of worship for edification ; but in the Church of Ierusalem , by the very baptisme and preaching of Iohn , there was an infinit multitude and a very City of believers ; ergo they could not all meete together in any one congregation . This is the sum of my first Argument . The second is this . Where there was such an infinite company and multitude of Christians and believers , as kept a tyrannicall King in awe and all the Magistrates and Elders , in whose hands was all the power and authority ; and struck such a terror into them all , as they durst not exercise their cruelty and tyranny over them , though they were their inveterate enemies , there of necessity the number of them must be so great , as they could not all meet together in one place or congregation to partake in all Acts of worship . But , in the Church of Jerusalem there was such a company of believers by the very baptisme of Iohn ; ergo they could not all meete together in any one place or congregation . This is the summe of my arguments , which I made good out of the Word of God , and from sound reason , as they that have read my booke with judgement , I am confident will acknowledge . Now heare how J. S. setteth them downe with his answer to them pag. the 8. and 9. of his booke . The Doctors first proposition is ( saith he ) that there were many Congregations and severall assemblies in the Church of Jerusalem &c. for proofe whereof ( saith he ) he bringeth the multitudes of Converts to Iohns Baptisme ; the people of Jerusalem , all of them ; and all Iudaea &c. whereby ( saith he ) all became Christians , or members of the Christian Church : for Iohns baptisme was into Iesus Christ , and the very same with that of the Apostles . Thus I. S. sets downe my Arguments , which I affirme , is not candidly done of him : for the ignorant Reader cannot see into the strength of my arguments , they being delivered in such obscure tearmes , and set down also to the halves , the whole truth not being specified . For not one of ten thousand had ever seene or read my book , & I dare say , not one of an hundred of the Independents had ever vouchsafed so much as to looke into it ; for I was made so odious unto them by their blasting language , as they abhorred my very name : with all howsoever they boasted at the first coming of it out , that there were twenty pens at worke in answering of it , yet not one of them ever appeared , till three moneths after it was printed . Now all the Copyes that were printed were all gone in one weeke , so that the answers coming out so long after , and my arguments not being known to the people , and being in this obscure manner and in such darke expressions , and but to the halves set down , every vulgar understanding can never see into the weight and strength of them , especially , they having not my booke before them . And to say the truth , all the Independents ordinarily use this method in their pretended answers , as first , to let the bookes they reply unto be forgotten , and after that to blurte out something against them , concealing the truth , and then they crow out as victors and conquerers , that they have beate up our quarters and puld downe the pillars of our discourse , as I S. doth vainly in this his Pamplet , when it will appeare to all intelligible men that he hath onely cast a squib or two at them , and then as a meere fresh water Souldier speedily ran away , and left that worke to others , as he unaduisedly in the tenth page and in his wise Epistle confesseth , sayning indisposition of body , when indeede it was his want of wit , learning , honesty , and courage . As I haveset downe the sum of my Arguments , and compared his expressing of my meaning , with it ; I will also set downe the summe of his answer to them , which he giveth in the name of all the Independents , saying , we answerd to your reason ; and then set downe his own words in their full length , that all men may see my faire dealing with him . For I. S. doth not here deny my minor as Master Knollys did , or accuse me of false Musters as he vainely and impiously doth in his answer to my second Arguments . But plainly denieth that those that were baptized by Iohn Baptist were Christians , to whom my brother Burton assenteth , page 16. of his book saying that those beleevers that were baptized by Iohn Baptist into Christ to come , according to the Papists doctrine , were not formed into a Christian Church , or Churches , as after Christs resurrection Christians were . These are my brother Burtons formall words , who not only assenteth to I. S. in this his opinion , but also bringeth in the authority of the Papists to confirme this their doctrine , and so in this the Independents agree with the Papists to overthrow the truth , and to maintain their abominable errors . And this I conceive , was the cause that moved my brother Burton in the ninth page of his booke in the beginning of his answer , to say , `as for your indefinite enumeration of those multitudes baptized by Iohn the Baptist and Christs Disciples , we take no notice of them . This is his expression there , concerning the which in due place . Surely if my brother Burton had thought them Christians , he would have demeed them worthy to have been taken notice of : but in this he agreeth with I. S. and the Papists . Now I will give you the summe of I. S. his Arguments , in way of answer , by which he denieth that those that were baptized by Iohn the Baptist were Christians . The first is because ( saith he ) they were baptised into Christ that was to dye , and not dead ; therefore in his dialect they were no Christians . The second , they were not baptized with the holy Ghost and with fire ; therefore thy were no Chrstians . The third , they were no more Christians then the Iewes that passed through the red Sea ; but they were no Christians ; ergo they also that were baptized by Iohn were no Christians . The fourth , The baptisme of Iohn was not perfect , ergo those that were baptised by him were no Christians . The fifth , those that were baptized by Iohn , did not only hasitate , but were scandalized at the true Messiah , and under the forme of Iohns baptisme did fight against the true baptisme and baptiser the Lord Jesus : ergo they were no Christians . Sixthly , they that were baptized by Iohn were not cast into a Church mould , according to the New ▪ testament forme , neither were they members of one Christian Church at Jerusalem , ergo they were not Christians ; and this Argument is brought in by way of a corallary . This must needs be the scope of his answer , or else he sayth nothing to the purpose in denying my Arguments , which were not only to prove , that those that were baptized by Iohn Baptist were Christians and beleevers , but also that they were in such multitudes as they could not all possibly meete in any one place , or congregation to communicate in all the Ordinances and all Acts of worship to edification . The dint and force of the which Argument , he thinkes he sufficiently evadeth , by denying that they were Christians at all . So that if this Answer be well looked into and examined , it will appeare that whiles he boasteth and glorieth that he hath beate up my quarters , he beates up Saint Iohns quarters , yea Christs quarters , and all his Disciples quarters before Christs death and Ascension , and all the quarters of all Christians that now live in the world : For if none are well Baptised and made Christians indeede , but such as are Baptised with the Holy Ghost and with fire , then all those that were baptised before Christs Ascension were no true Christians , nor no Christians in these our times , nor many Generations before us , who were not baptised by the Holy Ghost and with fire ; and by these his fond cavills he overthroweth the Scripture it self and all Divine and humane Authority , and gives the Spirit of God the lye . And truly such a peece of impious ignorance with such impudent confidence my eyes yet never beheld before I. S. and his complices came into the World. So that it stranges me eceedingly that such men as he and they are , should be suffered by those of the Congregationall way to go unpunished , who may shame them all , as indeed they are a shame to all Christian Religion : For I appeale to the judgement of all such as have any knowledge in Religion or love to the truth , or have any moderation or good temper yet left in them , whether this be a thing tolerable in any that has the name of a Christian , to play not only the juglers , to deceive and delude the poore people , but to give the Spirit of God the lye , and then to vapour and brag of it as of a conquest ? But now I will set downe his Arguments in his owne words , and give my answer to them severally . We ( saith he ) answer to your reasons . So that he writes in the name of all the Independents , as one of the Commanders and Captaines in their Militia , and as one of their Champions , and therefore in the name of them all , sayeth , We answer to your reasons . Now take notice what he answers in the name of the whole Fraternity . 1. Iohns Baptisme , was into Christ , but it was in Christum moriturum , not in Christum mortuum . This is J. S. his first answer . Truly one that should but looke on all his Answers to my Arguments , would wonder what the man meant by them , and to what purpose he uttered these words : for they are a manifest fighting against the Scripture of truth ; as all the judicious and learned will wel perceive . And I have heard both learned & pious men say , that they did not beleeve , that I. S. did well understand himselfe when he writ this book : and there is some reason of this their opinion : for hee confesseth in his wise Epistle , that hee was in a course of Physick at the wels ; & who knowes but the man might then be somewhat distemperd in his braine , and so might doe the actions of a man crased ? and his very language doth in a manner speake as much , both in this his Answer , and in many other passages of his Book , as in their due places will appeare , yea the very title also , and his Epistle being senselesse , calling his Pamphlet Flagellum flagelli , and the beating up of Doctor Bastwicks quarters , when he never came nigh them , and the taking hold and shaking of the Pillars of his discourse , when hee never so much as touched them , with many such other expressions , all which have no correspondency amongst themselves , and shewes that the man is either a very stranger in Rhetorick , not knowing how to keep himselfe to his Metaphor , or else that hee is crased indeed ; and truly so every one will conceive , if they duly weigh and consider all passages in his booke ; especially this answer of his to my Arguments : by which hee labours to prove that those that were baptized by Iohn the Baptist were no Christians , no Beleevers ; which he doth by very senselesse reasons : the first of which I have related , viz. that they were baptized into Christ to dye and not dead , and therefore in his opinion they were no Christians . I omit his latine expression , as thinking it a vaine thing in him to insert latine sentences writing in the vulgar tongue , especially in handling points of divinity , & those of great concernment , which the people should have set before them in perspicuous and plaine termes . But now take notice how the man contradicteth himselfe in his answer ; for the drift of it is to prove , that those that were baptized by Iohn the Baptist were no Christians , and yet hee sayeth , they were baptized into Christ . Then they were Christians by his owne confession , for Iesus Christ was yesterday , and to day , and the same for ever , Heb. 13. and He was ever the Messiah , the seed of the woman that should breake the Serpents head , that Rocke upon which the Church was built , against which the gates of Hell should never prevaile , Mat. 16. So that they that were baptized into Iesus Christ , whether whiles hee was living or dead , whether before his Nativity , death or ascension , or after , are all good Christians ; therefore he contradicteth himselfe in saying they were not Christians ; for it is not the circumstance of time that makes an alteration in the substance and essence of any thing : for the Passeover in Egypt , was the same for substance that it was in the Wildernesse , and in the land of Canaan ; for otherwise it should follow that the Supper of the Lord celebrated by Christ himselfe before his passion , and in memoriall of his death , should not be the same with that it was after Christs Resurrection and Ascension ; and that the Apostles that received the Lords Supper , were not Christians then as well as after his death , which I thinke I. S. will not dare affirme ; but if he should , I am confident all the well grounded Christians in the world would be his adversaries in this ; for the Apostle Saint Paul in the 1. of the Corinth . 11. 23 , 24 , 25. makes them all one for substance ; and as the Sacrament of the Lords Supper was the same for essence before Christs death that it was after , so was the Sacrament of Baptisme , to all that were baptized ; and hee was as good a Christian that was baptized in to Christ before his death , as hee that was baptized into him after his Ascension , as all good reason will perswade ; for Christ was ever the Messiah and King of his Church ; which will yet more evidently appeare , if wee compare earthly things with heavenly . I demand therefore of I. S. or any of the congregationall way , whether all such subjects as take the oath of allegiance , or sweare fealty to any King , who is owned by the people and whole Kingdome to be their lawfull King , as appointed and set over them of God , and is openly proclamed through the whose Realm to be their King , though at that time hee be in an other Countrey , and but now comming to take the possession of his Kingdome , I say I demand whether such subjects as take the oath of allegeance and sware fealty unto him , before he comes and sits visibly upon his Throne , be not by this their oath become that Kings subjects , as truly and as really , as if the King were bodily present ? I demand further , when hee is in person come into his Kingdome , and visibly amongst them , saluted and entertained and owned by the people for their King , whether or no those subjects that then take their oath of allegeance , and promise by that their oath their subjection unto him , bee not as really and truly his subjects , as those that after hee is inaugurated and gone into one of his other Kingdomes , take then the oath of allegeance , and sware subjection unto him in all his just commands ? I am confident that all men that are but a little skilled in politicks , or any good learning , will acknowledge , that either of the former subjects , are as truly and really subjects unto him though they never saw him ( as many hundred thousands never did their Kings ) as those that tooke the oath when hee was gone in triumph into an other of his Kingdomes . And thus it was with those that were baptized by Iohn the Baptist , that great Officer of Christs kingdome , and the blessed Apostle , those Stewards , Secretaries , privie Counsellors , & Embassadours of his Royaltie , who all baptized those that came unto them into Iesus Christ the King and Messiah , as well before his death as after , and all they owned him as well then for their King as after , crying Hosanna thou sonne of David , and strowing their garments in the way , saying , Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord , peace in Heaven , and glory in the Highest , Luke 19. vers . 4. and therefore it is a senslesse reason , yea contradictory unto it selfe that I. S. bringeth , considering there is no difference for the substance of the matter , though there be some variety in respect of the circumstance of time ; and in this fond error of I. S. is my brother Burton and the Papists , who thinke there was a great difference between the Baptisme before Christs death and that after his death , when indeed for substance there was none , no more then was betweene the Sacrament of the Lords Supper before Christs death and after . And therefore all those that received either of those Sacraments or both of them before his passion , were as good Christians as those that received them after ; for hee was owned by them at that time to be the Lambe of God that was to take away the sins of the world of beleevers , and to be the King of the Iews , the Saviour of his people , to be the anoynted Christ , & they took the Sacraments upon it , which is as much as the oath of allegeance to any King , which were sufficient to make them as good Christians as any that should come after them , and therefore they that were baptized by Iohn the Baptist into Christ to dye , which I. S. doth acknowledge , they were all as good Christians as any now baptized by the Independents ; and therefore that hee faith to the contrary and in opposition to this truth is a meer babble and a contradiction of himselfe . And this shall suffice to have spoke to his first answer to prove that those that were baptized by Iohn the Baptist were as good Christians as any other that were baptized after Christs death . His second is as senselesse , which is this . To say ( saith he ) that the Baptisme of Iohn was the same with Christs and the Apostles , is flat contrary to the assertion of Iohn himselfe and the Apostles , Mat. 21. 25. Act. 18. 25. I baptize you with water ( saith he ) but there comes one after me , who shall baptize with the Holy Ghost , and with fire . These are the words of his second argument to prove that those that were baptized by Iohn the Baptist were no Christians . In the entrance of this his answer he beats the ayre , and fights with his owne shadow and falsifies my words ; for I never said nor thought it , that the Baptisme of Iohn was the same with Christs ; for the Scripture relateth that Christ baptized not at all , Iohn 4. vers . 2. I said indeed , it was the same with the Apostles , and that is manifest out of many places of the holy Scriptures , as out of the 3. of Luke , ver . 2. & Iohn the 1. v. 33. where Iohn himself speaking saith , hee that sent mee to baptize with water , the same said unto me , &c. Yea one of those places quoted by himselfe , Matth. 21. vers . 25. sufficiently declares that Iohn had his Commission from God himself , ( whose Prophet he was ) to baptize with water , and the Apostles themselves before Christs death and Ascention baptized but with water , and had no other Commission but that Saint Iohn the Baptist had , and Iohn baptized with the Baptisme of Repentance , saying unto the people , that they should beleeve on him which should come after him that is on Christ Iesus , Act. 19. vers . 4. and the very Apostles Baptisme before Christs death vvas no other but the Baptisme of repentance and to beleeve in Christ ; yea faith and repentance was the summe of all the Preaching , both of Iohn and of all the holy Apostles , both before Christs death and after , as wee may see , Acts 20. vers . 21. where the Apostle saith , Testifying both to the Iewes , and also to the Greeks , repentance towards God , and faith towards our Lord Iesus Christ . Now when the Baptisme of Saint Iohn and the Apostles , both before Christs death and after was all one for substance , and all into Christ , as wee may yet further see , Acts the 8. 16. where it is said they were baptized in the name of the Lord Iesus . It was no error in mee to say that the Baptisme of Iohn was into Christ Iesus , and the very same with that of the Apostles , for the Holy Ghost which is the spirit of truth hath so taught mee : and therefore all those that were baptized by Iohn the Baptist were as good Christians and beleevers as those that were baptized by the Apostles , if repentance towards God and faith towards our Lord Iesus Christ , and being baptized into him could make good Christians ; which were blasphemy to gain-say , and nothing else but to give the spirit of God the lye : and therefore J. S. affirming that there was a difference between the Baptisme of Iohn and that of the Apostles , and denying that those that were baptized by Iohn were Christians , gives the spirit of God the lye : for the holy word of God which was penned by his spirit asserteth the contrary : And for that text that he citeth out of the third of Matthew , where Iohn saith , I baptize you with water , but there comes one after me who shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire ; this is nothing to his purpose nor nothing against my opinion : For , as I said before , it was never my beliefe that the baptisme of Christ and Iohns baptisme was all one , seeing Saint Iohn the Baptist hath taught the contrary , as in the words alledged it is sufficiently declared : But I demand of I. S. whether the Apostles , all whose names were written in heaven , were not as good Christians and Beleevers in Jesus Christ by Iohns baptisme , before they had received the gifts of the Holy Ghost , and were baptized with fire ( which we read of Act. the 2. ) as they were after the cloven tongues appeared unto them ? ver . 3. If either he or any of his fraternity shall deny it , then they must deny the sixteenth chapter of Matthew and the sixt of Saint Iohn , where we finde that honourable confession of all the Apostles where they testifie their faith in Christ into whom they had been baptized before that , yea they must deny the whole Scriptures of the New Testament which affirme the contrary : And if the baptizing of any with the Holy Ghost and with fire be that thing onely that makes men Christians and Beleevers , then none that were not so baptized were good christians : for the gifts of the Holy Ghost as the diversity of tongues and working of miracles , were not promiscuous and given to all as Saint Paul doth sufficiently declare , 1 Cor. 12. 30. Have all the gifts of healing ? Do all speak with tongues ? So that all the people were not baptized with the Holy Ghost ; and therefore by I. S. his learning were no christians : Neither was that the worke of the Apostles , but it was Christs work onely who first breathed the spirit upon the Apostles and after his ascen●ion first poured down those gifts upon them , Acts the 2. and after that at many other times through the prayer of the Apostles and putting on of their hands upon the Beleevers Christ for the confirmation of their Ministry , and to manifest to all those that were converted by them that they were sent by him , shed down those miraculous graces upon many , but gave them not to all ; and it is also declared that they first believed and then they were baptized with the Holy Ghost ; and wee have but one President that I remember in the holy Scripture , that any received the gifts of the Holy Ghost , before they were baptized with water , and that is those of Cornelius his house : but all the rest were baptized with water before . And therefore those gifts made them not Christians but declared them to be beleevers , and were the effects of their faith , which notwithstanding were not conferred by the Apostles , but were immediately given by the spirit of Christ : So that those visible gifts were not essentiall for the making of any Christians and Beleevers ; for they were alwayes Beleevers before they received them ; and if those gifts had been essentiall and absolutely necessary for the making of any Christians , then all that had received them should have been saved , which they were not ; besides then , many hundred thousands of the primitive Christians should not have been true Beleevers and Christians indeed ; for all men generally received them not ( as I proved before ) and all the Christians , for ought I know , since the Primitive times , and all that now live should be no good Christians : for they were not and now are not baptized with the holy Ghost & with fire . So that al men may see with how little reason this I. S. speaketh in these his argumenta●ions , and how vain and impious he is in all his cavills : this shall suffice to have spoke concerning his second answer . And now I come to his third , which is as good as the two former : His words are these . 3. Therefore now , ( saith I. S. ) by Iohns baptisme they were not all made Christians no more then the body of the Iewes before John were turned Christians by being baptized in the red Sea &c. For they were baptized into Christ by their baptisme , 1 Cor. 10. 3. I deny not but this baptisme of John was to prepare men for Christ , and did beare a more immediate relation to such a worke , then any Ordinance before , but it did not make them absolute Christians . It did not absolve and perfect the new Church , I mean not so far as that Ordinance of baptisme was to do afterwards . Thus I. S. blasphemeth rather then disputeth : For that he saith is impious in the highest degree ; for it is an apparent giving of the spirit of truth the lye , and a confuting of Christ himselfe and Saint Paul , and an opposing of the generality of all the Independents , as every understanding man will easily gather : for the Scripture everywhere and all the orthodox Divines , yea and all the Independents that ever I talked with or read of before I. S. and my Brother Burton , acknowledge that those that were baptized by the Baptist and Christs Disciples before Christs death , were Christians and Beleevers ; for otherwise they could not have been baptized . Notwithstanding I. S. out of his learning denyeth not onely that they were Christians , but affirmeth also that those that were baptized by Moses in the red Sea were no Christians ; whether therefore this be not to beat up the quarters of Iohn the Baptist , Christ himselfe and the quarters of Moses the servant of the Lord , and of all the Independents , and to pull down the very pillars of the holy Scriptures ; and be not a horrid blasphemy in I. S. I leave to the judgement of the learned ! Our saviour saith Luk. the 7. v. 29. 30. And all the people that heard him , & the Publicans justified God , being baptized with the baptisme of John , but the Pharisees and & Lawyers rejected the Councel of God against themselves being not baptized of him . Here we have Christs testimony , who asserteth that ( the Lawyers and Pharisees only excepted ) all that heard Iohn of which innumerable multitudes of them came from Jerusalem , for all Ierusalem went out to him , did justifie God and did not reject his Councell , that is to say , they were Believers ; for the councel of God in the ministry of Saint Iohn to all the people was , that they should repent and believe in the Messiah and in token of their faith that they should be baptized ; now this sweet councell for the obtaining of free grace and favour offered unto them by God , in the ministry of Iohn did the Pharisees and Lawyers reject to their own perdition ; for they would not bring forth fruits meet for repentance , that is they would neither believe in the Messiah nor repent nor be baptized ; and therefore as a company of Infidels and unbeleevers they despised the councell of God and his grace and favour ; but all the other that heard Iohn saith Christ , justified God , and did not reject his councell , that is , they acknowledged that God was just , faithfull , mercifull and gracious , and therefore beleeved his promises and repented and were baptized and were all as good Christians and Beleevers as any were , if any credit may be given to Christs words . Whether therefore we ought rather to beleeve the words of Christ and his testimony or I. S. his language , I refer it to the judgement of the advised reader ! Christ declareth they were Beleevers and Christians , for they justified God and rejected not his councel , but imbraced his grace and favour and free mercy ; I. S. saith the contrary . It is true that the name of Christian , was not given to beleevers , till they were called so at Antioch , yet to beleeve , in Christ and to be baptized into Christ , made them as well Christians before his suffering as after ; for otherwise Abel , Enoch , Noah , Moses , Abraham , David and all those Martyrs spoke of Hebrewes the eleventh , and all those baptized by the Apostles before Christs death , should not have bin Christians , which were wickednesse to think , when the Scripture affirmeth that they not only lived by faith , but did all those wonders by vertue of their faith in Christ , and that they all injoyed the promises ; and therefore it must necessarily follow they were Christians , as all beleeving in Christ and living and dying in that faith . So that howsoever they had not the name of christians and were not so called which makes nothing against the reality of the thing , for we contend not about words , yet they were all true christians , they being all built upon that Corner stone and upon the foundation Jesus Christ , and differing nothing for the essence and substance or object of their faith from any that did succeed them in all ages to come . And therefore I. S. affirming that by the baptisme of Iohn the beleevers then were not made Christians , and that the Israelits Baptised by Moses in the cloude were no Christians , overthrowes the holy Scriptures and gives Christ the lye , and confutes Paul himself who in the 10. of the 1 of the Cor. ver . 1. 2. 3. affirmes , that our fathers were under the cloude , and all passed through the Sea and were all baptised by Moses in the cloude and in the Sea , and all eate the same spirituall meate , and did all drink the same spirituall drinke ( for they all drank of the same spiritual Rock that followed them and that Rock was Christ ) by the which testimony of the Apostle they were as good Christians : as the Corinthians ; for he comparing them together , sheweth that they were equall to them in priviledges , and were as good Christians as they , according to that of Peter Acts the 15. vers . 9. and put no difference between us and them purifying their hearts by faith ; & as he had proved that the Israelits were equall in Priviledges with the Corinthians , and all other Christians , so he declareth likewise if the Corinthians and all other Christians did offend against God as the Israelites did , they should likewise be equall to them in punishments : For God was no respector of persons , but as inevery nation he that feareth God & worketh righteousnesse is accepted of him , Acts 10. ver . 35 : so whatsoever Christians , of what Nation so ever , whether Iewer or Gentiles shall offend as the Israelites did , they shall be equally punished . So that by the witnesse and testimony of Paul in this tenth chapter of the 1 of the Cor. and the 11. of the Hebrewes , and from the above cited Scriptures all our fathers under the cloude and all the Patriarkes , and all those Martyrs , and all those that were baptised by the Baptist and Christ Disciples , were all as good Christians as any Baptized after Christs death or now by those of the Congregationall way or any Christians in the world ; and all that I here say is most true if any beliefe may be given to the holy Word of God. And therefore I. S. affirming the contrary blasphemeth . And now I come to his fourth Argument . Which is this . The learned and judicious know ( saith he ) that Iohn was but the Messenger before Christ Mal. 3. ver . 1. And his baptisme was but as the streaming of light in the Heavens before the day , and he did only bring and restore all things to their legall perfection by water , the element of the law ; but Christ Iesus he comes and Baptizes with fire , consummats all things with this transforming powerfull element , even his spirit , Thus I. S. speaketh . To examine all the errors in these words , would take up much time , and require a large discourse , but I study brevity . As for the first part of this his answer , where he saith , the learned and Iudicious know , that Iohn was but the Messenger before Christ , &c. it is a peece of vanity in him to produce the testimony of men to prove that Iohn was a Messenger of Christ , when the holy Scripture in many places assertsit , and when Christ himself hath declared that Iohn the Baptist was that Elias that was foretold should prepare the way before the Lord and make his pathes straight : but this I may truly say of I. S. that he is a meere stranger in all good learning and as ignorant in all Divinity and in the holy Word of God , as those judicious he speakes of , were singularly excellent and mighty in the Scriptures and all sound theologie , whose works and godly solid writings , if ever he had read with understanding , he could never have bin so prodigiously blasphemous as he is in all his discourse and chiefly in these his answers : for there is not any one of them in which there is not great impiety to be discovered : as in this to accuse Iohns Baptisme and Ministry of imperfection , and to say they were but as the streamingsoflight in the Heavens before the day , when notwithstanding Christ himself hath often given so many honourable testimonies of Iohn , and his Ministry , saying in the 5. of Iohn 32. that he bare witnesse of him , and that his witnesse was true , and in the 35. ver . in expresse words affirming that he was a burning and shining light , and that the Iews for a season did rejoyce in his light . And yet I. S. boldly and peremptorily affirmeth that the Baptisme of Iohn was but as the streamings of light , and that they were not consummate Christians that were baptised by him . Who shall we beleeve ? I. S. or Iesus Christ ? Christ saith Iohn was a burning and shining light . I. S. sayeth he was but as the streaming of light ; if this be not to give Christ the lye , I know not what it is ! Christ in the seventh chapter of Luke and the 28. verse , sayth , That Iohn the Baptist was the greatest Prophet that was ever borne of women . Then , he was inferior in his Ministry to none of them , no not to Moses himself , of whom the author to the Hebrewes chap. 3. vers . 5. saith with a verily , that he was faithfull in all the house of God as a servant for a testimony of those things that were to be spoken after . Now if Moses did his worke perfectly , as he did , and baptized those perfectly in the Cloude and in the sea as Paul asserteth 1 Cor. 10. and did all he did in perfection and according to the paterne shewed him in the Mount and according to the will of God , and did perfectly consummate his Ministry , then Iohn the Baptist also did the like , for Christ saith that amongst those that are borne of women , there is not a greater Prophet then Iohn the Baptist : that is there was not one more faithfull and that did his worke more compleatly and with more perfection : which Christs owne words in the third of Matthew do yet more fully declare vers . 15. saying suffer it to be so now : for thus it becommeth us to fulfill all righteousnesse . Now if the Baptist did fulfill all righteousnesse in his Ministry , then he did it compleatly and made those that were baptized by him perfect , compleat and consummated Christians ; for he in his Office , fulfilled all righteousnesse ; if therefore there were any imperfection ( as I. S. saith ) in the Baptisme and Ministry of Iohn , then he did not fulfill all righteousnesse , and then Christs words should not be true , which is a high point of blasphemy to thinke , much more to say and print as I. S. doth : for he that fulfills all righteousnesse in his Office doth it perfectly and compleatly , but Iohn did so : ergo all those that he baptized were compleat Christians . I demand therefore of I. S. my brother Burton and of all the Independents , whether Christ was well baptized , or no by Iohn the Baptist ? I presum they will not deny but that he was perfectly baptized . And if Christ himselfe was well baptized , then all that were baptized by John were also well baptized and were perfect and compleat Christians , for John was sent of God to baptize ; and he obeyed Gods command in this his Ministry , and in that also fulfilled all righteousnesse , and therefore all those that were baptized by Iohn & by the Apostles before Christs death and ascension , were as perfect Christians as any that were baptized after Christs resurrection ; and if they were not well baptized then Christ was not well baptized , which were high impiety to affirme ; neither will I ever be induced to beleeve , that Iohn Baptist did not know as well how to make compleat Christians , as I. S. or as any of the Independent Ministers ; for I know Iohn was sent of God for this worke , and that he fulfilled all righteousnesse in it , and I know also that he was faithfull in his Ministry to the death , and feared not the face of Herod nor of any Mortall creature : for all this the Scripture ascertanieth unto me ; but that our Independent Ministers were ever sent of God , and bid to set up their new lights and to preach , up their congregationall way or a toleration of all Religions , I doubt it . For first I know that they ranne back-ward , and forward , to and fro , before they were ever sent , and that they preach that they were never commanded from God , and that when they should have preached andstood to witnes the truth , many of them ran away and deserted it and did not stand to it as Iohn Baptist did , but like those hirelings Christ speaks of , Iohn the tenth , when they saw the Wolfe comming , cowardly ranne away , and left their poore flocks to the fury of those beasts and many of them now have left their flocks in the wildernesse and have deserted their charges contrary to the command of God Acts 20. vers . 28. who saith by the Apostle Take heede therefore unto your selves , and to all the flocke , over which the holy Ghost hath made you Bishops , to feeds the Church of God , which he hath purchased with his own bloud . In all these respects , and many more that I could name , I greatly doubt whether the Independent Ministers were ever sent of God : but for Iohn , I know he was , and I know in like manner that he fulfilled all righteousnesse in his Ministery , and made those he Baptized perfect Christian ; I know likewise that he made innumerable multitudes of them , and that Jerusalem came out and was Baptized also , which when I. S. denyeth I assert he is a wicked and blasphemous fellow , and that if he had his due deserts , he ought to be spued not only out of their seven new churches here in London , but out of all their severall new fangled congregations through the Kingdome as an Alien and stranger from the common-wealth of all learning and goodnesse . And this shall suffice to have spoke to the fourth learned answer . I now come to the fifth as good as the rest ; his words are these . So farre was it ( saith he ) that all that were Baptized by Iohn , were made Christians , that even Iohns owne Disciples ( who had the best and frequentest instruction ) not onely hesitated , but were right downe scandalized at the true Messias Iohn 3. ver . 26. and others did under the forme of Iohns baptisme , fight against the true baptisme and baptizer the Lord Iesus . So that I conceive ( saith he ) this Argument ( were it granted that all the people received Iohns baptisme ) will stand in little steade to prove the conclusion , viz : that they were made Christians , much lesse cast into a Church mould , according to the New Testament forme , and least of all that they were all members of one Christian Church at Ierusalem . These are his formall expressions , by which he laboureth to prove , that those that were baptized by Iohn the Baptist were no Christians ; in these his words there is a double Argument by which he indeavours to unchristian all those that were Baptised by the Baptist . The first is , because as he falsly supposeth they were enimies of Christ . The second is in that they were not rightly moulded . So that in this his last Paragraffe or Section , we have two Arguments together . Which being added to the former make up six in all , by which the profound disputant J. S. unchurches and unchristi●ns all those that were baptised by John. Now because I. S. and his complices do place so much strength in these two last Arguments , I shall desire the reader the more seriously to weigh and consider them with the conclusions deduced from them by I. S. and my reply to them . First whereas hee denieth that all that were baptized by Iohn were made Christians , as it is a begging of the question , so in his thus speaking hee overthrows the whole Ministry of Iohn the Baptist , and contradicts the Holy Scriptures , and all those places I quoted out of them in my former reply ; and which is more , hee contradicteth himselfe : for hee confesseth that Iohn Baptized in to Christ , and he baptized none , as all the Independents acknowledge , but beleevers ; therefore they were Christians by his owne confession ; and yet here as often formerly he denieth they were Christians . But because I have spoke of this before , I will now come to his reasons . His first reason , to prove they were not Christians , is , because ( saith he ) Iohns owne Disciples ( who had the best and frequentest instruction ) not only hesitated , that is doubted , but were right downe scandalized at the Messiah . The second is because others did under the forme of Iohns Baptisme , fight against the true baptisme and the Baptizer the Lord Iesus . These his reasons , I affirme , are nothing else but a meer calumny , and a false accusation , and to speake the truth , are but his owne wicked and groundlesse surmises ; and if every man , from his owne fictious and fond conceits , and supposed premises , may take the liberty thus to vent himselfe , I know no truth in the whole word of God , but may be called in question , yea overthrown and I know no Christians nor Saints but may at any time be unsainted and unchristianed . Our Saviour Christ in the 7. of Luke , vers . 32 , 33 , 34. compareth those of his time , unto little children sitting in the market place , and calling one to another , and saying ; wee have piped unto you , and you have not danced ; wee have mourned unto you , and ye have not wept ; for Iohn the Baptist came neither eating bread , nor drinking wine , and ye say he hath a Devill . The Sonne of man is come eating and drinking , and ye say , behold a gluttonous man , and a wine Bibber , afriend of Publicans and Sinners . But wisedome is justified of all her children . By which words of our Saviour wee see nothing could please the Gentlemen of his time . Now if ever there were an age in the world , or company of men in it , that might be compared to these little children , then this of ours , and the people in it , especially the Independents may be , who are pleased with nothing , and can least of all indure any Vniformity in the Church , against which they professedly both write and preach , and as those in our Saviours dayes did speake against the Ministry of Iohn the Baptist , and against Christ himself ; so at this very day amongst us , there are many that make nothing of the Ministry of Iohn , professing they take no notice of those that were baptized by him or Christs disciples , and I. S. peremptorily affirmeth , that those that were baptized by him were no Christians , and that his Ministry was imperfect ; and therefore I conceive all men will judge , that the Independents may well be compared to those of Christs time , who unchurch all but themselves . But saith I. S. they were Iohns owne Disciples that both doubted and hesitated , and were right downe scandalized at the true Messias , and for proofe of this his saying hee produceth the 3. of Iohn , vers . 26. I will therefore set downe the words of the text with the forgoing verse , which will give some light to the busines in hand , verse 25. Then there arose ( saith the Evangelist ) a question betweene some of Iohns disciples and the Iewes about purifying , and they came unto Iohn and said unto him , Rabbi , hee that was with thee beyond Iordan , to whom thou barest witnesse , behold the same baptizeth and all men come to him . These are the words out of which I. S. grounds all his accusation against Iohns Disciples , by which hee would prove them no Christians . But if men would but duly weigh and examine the text , they will easily perceive , there is not so much as a very similitude of the illation and consequence I. S. inferres from thence . For first the question there started , was not betweene Iohns Disciples and Christs , but betweene the Disciples of Iohn and the Jewes , that is betweene the Scribes and Pharisees and Iohns Disciples , who were enemies of Iohn the Baptist as well as of Christ , and therefore questioned all they did , ever and anon asking Iohn and Christ by what authority they preached and did those things they did . And so here the Jewes , they questioned with Iohns Disciples concerning his Ministry , ( as by all conjecture it may be gathered ) & about legall purifications , of which they were very studious and great observers , to which the Pharisees had added many of their ovvne , as wee may see , Matth , the 15. and Marke the 7. and therefore they contended with Iohns Disciples about purifying , supposing , that there was no need of Iohns baptisme and washing , seeing they had so much rinsing and purifying already amongst them . So that it seemes the contention betweene the Jewes and Iohns Disciples arose upon this , that Iohns Disciples much magnified the Baptisme of their Master , and the Jewes and Pharisees , they extolled as much their Purifications , thinking them necessary to salvation , which error of the Jewes , notwithstanding , had often by the Prophets beene confuted , as in Isa . 1. and many other places . Now Iohn , that hee might revoke all men from this error , that they should not rest in corporall vvashings and in outvvard performances , exhorts them to looke unto Christ , vvho vvas the truth of which all those ceremonies were but the shadowes and were all fulfilled in him , and therefore that they should by faith wholy rely upon him for salvation as the sequell of the chapter doth sufficiently shew . Now in the heate of this dispute , the Evangelist relateth in the 26. verse , that they came unto Iohn , and said unto him , Rabbi , hee that was with thee beyond Jordan , to whom thou bearest witnesse , behold the same baptizeth , and all men come to him . Out of which words I see no reason why I. S. should gather , that Iohns Disciples not only hesitated , but were right downe scandalized at the true Messias , but I see very good ground , why the contrary may be concluded ; if they were Iohns Disciples and that they dearely esteemed Christ and much honoured him rather then that they vvere offended with him . But first , it is not said that Iohns Disciples came unto him , onely it is related that some came unto Iohn , they came unto him saith the Scripture : which they , it is not specified ; for Iohns Disciples and the Jewes contended , and the Jewes are put in the last place , so that it may be gathered that they were the Jewes , rather then Iohns Disciples that came unto him , as being last spoken of & mentioned : and if they were the Jewes , then they vvere the knovvn and profest enemies , both of Iohn and of Christ ; and therefore were none of Iohns Disoiples , as I. S. fondly perswadeth himself ; for they were continuall enemies , and adversaries to them both ; so that if they came unto Iohn they came unto him by way of complaint , and as being scandalized , & then they were not Iohns followers and schollers , for they were better taught then to be scandalized at Christ . But should I grant unto I. S. for disputation sake , that they were Iohns owne Disciples , which yet cannot clearly be proved . It doth not follow from those words that they either doubted or were scandalized at the true Messiah , as I. S. vainly and impiously concludes . For if any should hear some one of the Independent ministers greatly magnifie one of his brethren and fellow ministers , as to be a man sent from heaven , and should say of him , That he was the rarest preacher one of them in the world , as they do mightily extoll one another : and upon the praises and commendations of this man many thousands of people should by and by flock after him , wheresoever they should hear he preacheth : and some one or more of his followers should come unto this minister that so praysed him and say , Sir , such a man who you so commended in such a place , behold he now preacheth and all men come to him and follow his ministry ! would such a relation I pray , as this made unto him that had formerly praised that minister , infer , that those that told him of such concourses of people as ran after him not only hesitated but wer right down scandalized at him ? I am confident that upon mature deliberation no rationall creature would make such an inference . Neither can I see any ground why either I. S. or any of his associats or any other should so conclude . For the Scripture relateth every where that there was fairer agreement , and much love and amity between Johns Disciples and Christs , and that they knew one another very well and desired to imitate one another : so that they did not envy one anothers masters prosperity , nor doubted not of one anothers masters ministry , nor were scandalized one at anothers masters happinesse : And there is very good reason for it : For they all knew that John had so honourable an esteem of Christ , as he thought himself not worthy to carry his shooes Mat. 3. 11. they knew also how highly Christ had often magnified Iohn , proclaiming him to be the greatest prophet that ever was borne of women , and how that Christ had commanded John to baptize himselfe , so much he honoured his ministry . They by their experience likewise knew that their was great correspondency & continued amity between their masters , and that they justified each others ministry and that before all the people , John teaching the people , That he was the Messiah and the Lambe of God , that was to take away the sins of the world ; and Christ upon all occasions making mention of John with great praises saying , That his ministry was from heaven and that he was his messenger to prepare his way before him . So that I say in all these respects and many more that might be specified it followeth that Iohns Disciples neither hesitated nor were scandalized at the true Messiah , as I. S. grollishly and wickedly inferreth . Besides they knew that at Christs Baptisme Mat. 3. The Holy Ghost discending like a dove lighted upon him , and a voice came from Heaven saying this is my beloved sonne in whom I am well pleased . So that Iohns Disciples that were dayly with their master and waited upon his ministry , which onely preached up the Kingdome of Christ , could not doubt , much lesse be scandalized at the true Messiah Jesus Christ . Again , in the 1. of Iohn it is related there , that Iohn openly among all the people proclaimed Christ to be the Lambe of God , and sayeth that hee knew him so to be , by the discending of the spirit from Heaven upon him , because , that God that sent him to baptize with water , said unto him , upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit discending and remaining on him , the same is hee which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost , and I saw ( saith hee ) and bare record that this is the Sonne of God. And all this was spoke in the hearing of Johns Disciples , so that they could not doubt now of the Messias , or be scandalized at him , for then they should have beene very untaught Schollers , which the words following , verse 33. shevves they vvere not : for two of Iohns Disciples at that time hearing their Master speake these vvords , beleeved and follovved Iesus , and inquired vvhere he dvvelt , vvho inviting them to come and see , went with him to his aboad and tarried with him that night ; and the story and discourse follovving shevves that they vvere so confirmed in their faith , and were so far from doubting and being scandalized at the Messiah , as they likewise preached him and gained Disciples to him . And the same we may say of all Iohns other Disciples that they honoured Christ very much and predicated his fame unto their master upon all occasions as in the 7. of Luke when the rumour of Christ miracles was spred abroad , Iohns Disciples were alwayes wont to relate it unto their master . Whereupon Iohn at one time calling unto him two of his Disciples , sent them unto Jesus saying , art thou he that shall come or looke we for another ? which message was not sent by S. Iohn , that either he or his Disciples doubted or hesitated or were scandalized at the true Messiah , but that they all also might be as well eye witnesses of his miracles as others , and might say another day that they had not onely heard of his fame , but that they themselves had seen his wondrous works : For John desired by all manner of wayes hee could , to publish the Kingdome of the Messias , and knew that the more witnesses Christ had , and them of knowledge of reputation , the more their report and preaching of him would be credited , especially when they themselves could say , that they had seene him working miracles , and that Christ bade them goe and tell Iohn what things they had seene and heard , how that the blind see , and the lame walke , and the Lepers are clensed , the deafe heare , the dead are raised , and the poor receive the Gospel : and for this very end did Iohn send two of his Disciples to Christ , not that either he or they doubted whether he was the Messias or no , but that they might be eye witnesses and relate these things with the more confidence both unto the people , and to those that should be pen men of the Holy Scriptures , as St. Luke in the 1 chapter v. 2. Even as they delivered them unto us , which from the beginning were eye witnesses and Ministers of the Word : according to that of Saint Peter , Acts the 1. verse 21. Wherefore of these men which have companied with us , all the time that the Lord Iesus went in and out amongst us , beginning from the baptisme of Iohn unto the same day hee was taken up from us , must one be ordained to be a witnesse with us of his resurrection . So that it may well be gathered , that Iohn the Baptist had a speciall eye to the future , and desired not only in his owne person to preach up Christs Kingdome , but that his Disciples after him might relate to their Auditors and to the holy pen-men what they had both heard with their owne eares , and seene with their own eyes , and so might the better witnesse unto Christ : neither will any man deny but that Iohns Disciples , might also be much strengthned in their faith in beholding those wonderful miracles of Christ , though they no way doubted or hesitated or were scandalized at the Messiasbefore , no more then the people in Samaria doubted concerning him , Iohn 4. after the woman had said to the men of that Citie , Come see a man which told me all things that ever I did : is not this the Christ ? then it is said , they went out and came unto him , and many of them beleeved for the saying of the woman which testified hee told mee all that ever J did ; but many more beleeved because of his owne word , and said unto the woman , now wee beleeve , not because of thy saying , but because wee have heard him our selves , and know that this is indeed the Christ the Saviour of the world . The Scripture saith they beleeved before upon the womans relation , but wee now coroborated in their faith , and so it was with Iohns Disciples and followers . But shall there be any therefore from that bee so stupid as to thinke that any of Iohns Disciples that had the best and frequentest instruction concerning the Messias , could either doubt or be scandalized at him , because the people followed Christ , and John sent his Disciples to him ? No surely , none would so conclude but I. S. and his Fraternity . Much lesse would they say , that others did under the forme of Iohns Baptisme , fight against the true Baptisme and Baptizer the Lord Iesus ; which is I. S. his second reason , or rather folly and madnesse ; and upon this their wicked conceit and groundlesse opinion inferre that they were no Christians as I. S. doth . For there is not any one word in all the Holy Scripture , that does relate that any that were baptized by Iohn , did under the forme of that Baptisme , fight against the true Baptisme and Baptizer the Lord Jesus : what a wicked and abominable Fellow then is this I. S. that dares thus at pleasure traduce the generation of the just , and falsely accuse all Iohns owne Disciples , and all those that were baptized by him to be enemies of Jesus Christ the Messias ? and upon this bare opinion of his to unchristian them all ? it may now be no wonder to any good Christian that the whole rout of the Independents unchurch us , and make no Christians of us , and asperse and speak all manner of evill of us at pleasure , calling us the profest enemies of Jesus Christ & his Kingdom seeing upon all occasions they doe the same to all those that were baptized by Iohn and Christs Disciples all which I. S. proclaims to be no Christians , as his words doe sufficiently speak . But from the testimony that he produceth to prove that Iohns Disciples were scandalized at Christ : I gather the contrary for the reasons above specified , and conclude with al , that there were innumerable multitudes daily converted by Christs and Iohns Ministry , & were all made good Christians ; for it is said in the chapter quoted by him , that all men came to him , & Iohn and they were all baptized ; so that not a few congregations could contain all them that came from Ierusalem : for all Jerusalem came out to John and our Saviour sent this message unto Iohn in the 7. of Luke as one of the miracles he wrought , that the poor received the Gospel , that is , not onely the poore in spirit , but the multitudes of people that were poore and indigent in respect of these outward things and wanted those riches that others abounded with , and he affirmes of these that they received the Gospell and imbraced the free grace and favour of God , and that they were the Pharisees and Lawyers only that reiected the counsell of God against themselves ; but for all the poore saith he and all others that heard Iohn , they imbraced the Gospel , and were Gospel Christians and such as believed aright and as they ought to beleeve , and therefore if the testimony of Christ may be credited , they were cast into a Church mould , according to the New Testament forme and were very good Christians , and that in mighty multitudes ; for all Jerusalem and the poore received the Gospel , and therefore they could not meet in one and a few congregations together at any one time . But because I S. so peremptorily affirmes , that were it granted , that all the people received Iohns Baptisme , yet it would stand me in little stead to prove the conclusion : viz that they were made Christians : These are his words , adding with all , much lesse , that they were cast into a Church mould according to the New Testament forme , and lest of all that they were all members of one Christian Church at Ierusalem , which is one of their chiefe Arguments by which I. S. & they of his fraternity uphold their opinion of Independency , and by which they unchurch all other churches but their own at this day . I say in all these regards I will spend the more time about this argument , the which howsoever it be brought in by I. S. but as as a corallary , yet it may stand for his sixth Argument and the best in the bunch , to maintaine and uphold there with their way of Independency , therefore I will first put his words into a Syllogisticall frame , then consider the waight of the reasons contained in them . All such as were not cast into a Church mould according to the New testament forme , and lest of all were members of one , Christian church in Ierusalem , they were not made Christians : but all they of Ierusalem that went out to Iohns baptisme and were baptized by him , were such as were not cast into a Church mould according to the New testament forme ; least of all , were they members of one Christian Church in Ierusalem ; ergo they were not made Christians . This is I. S. his Argument which he sets downe by way of a corallary ; the Minor of which I deny , affirming they were cast into a church mould as the sequell wlil shew . But because by this Argument , the Independents do not only unchurch and unchristian all those that were baptized by Iohn the Baptist , but indeed unchurch and unchristian all the Protestant Churches through the world and all other churches but their owne ; I shall be something the larger in examining it with the severall termes and expressions of the same , and then shew and discover the futility and vanity of it , by which I am confident the errors of their wayes will the better appeare ; for by that it will be manifest , that the Independent doctrine is but an old peece of Popery in new clothes : though varnished over with fine colours , that it may come forth into the world more lovely and lesse suspected , and it is as little prevalent to maintaine their cause as the Papists is to uphold their Babell . The Papists and the Independents here agree in these two things . First , They both deny , that those beleevers that were baptized by Iohn the Baptist into Christ to come , were formed into a Christian church or churches ; for we have I. S. his formall words in this his answer in the name of all the Independents confidently denying that they were made Christians ; and my brother Burton in expresse termes page 9. of his booke accordeth unto him , saying in the name of all his brethren , we take no notice of them as formed into a church or churches , and pag. 16. of his booke he produceth the Papists doctrine to prove this their opinion to be legitimate : So that in this point of their beliefe the Papists and the Independents agree against all the current and the whole Schooles of all the most Orthodoxe Protestant Divines who hold they were Christians . Secondly , they agree in this also that both of them hold that the forme of a church must ever be visible and apparent : So that were their never so many Assemblies of Christians in a city or country , and all beleevers , if they be not cast into such and such a mold and forme , then theyare not churches properly so called , but in their dialect they are either Heritickes or no Christians , but proclaimed enemies of Iesus Christ and his Kingdom . So that according to the Papists doctrine , all those Christians that are not within the limits , compasse and bounds that they have circumscribed their church with , and are not under that visible forme of government they have appointed ; they accompt them all Heritickes and no churches : as all men know . And in the same manner , do the Independents unchurch all churches in the world but such as in their opinion are cast into a church mould according to the New Testament forme , and have their distinct Officers and Members , united into one body respectively . That is to say , speaking in their owne language , all such congregations and assembles , as are fluid and are not joyned and united together by an explcite particular Covenant & fixed in their officers and Members & having a Presbytery of their own , with absolute Soverainty and power within themselves Independent , they are no churches , and all those Christians that are not within the compasse and limits of this their new mould or modell , they proclaime them enemies of Iesus Christ and his kingdome , and accompte of them as a company of infidels and affirme that they are no true churches , nor churches properly so called . So that we see , that both the Papists and Independents agree in this , that they bound and limit all churches to such and such an externall forme ; so that wheresoever that is wanting according to their dialect , though otherwise they have the preaching of the Gospel , the right administration of the Sacraments and the true invocation of God ; they are no churches properly so called . And both of them farther accorde and agree in this , that the forme of their churches consists in the distinction of their Officers and members and the uniting of them into one body respectively ; they must not be fluid as they speake , but they must be fixed in their Officers and Members , and having a Presbytery of their owne , with absolute soverainty and jurisdiction within themselves Independent . But in this the Papists deale far more honestly then the Independents : for they have in many large volumes fully set downe the modell of their government , and what it is , and shew how they are fixed in their Officers and Members ; and for their chiefe Officers , they say they are the Pope and his Presbytery at Rome , the Cardinals , Patriarchs , Primates , Metropolitans , Archbishops &c. and we know where to finde them , and what their modell and government is to a hare : But what the Independents modell is or will be , no man could yet ever learne but by conjecture : which I must confesse seemes a wonderfull thing to me , that they should thus at pleasure unchurch and unchristian all churches and Christians as not formed into a church mould after the New Testament forme , and yet never declare what that forme and mold is . And yet this is , their daily wicked practice . So that all men may see , if they will not put out their eyes , that in this and many other of their tenents and opinions the Independents are but a company of Mungrell Papists , and would have all men belieeve with an implicit faith as their Churches believe , and take all they speake as Oracles , though it be never so groundlesse . But we have learned Christ better then so , who is the Prophet and King of his Church and who hath commanded us to heare him Matth. 17. and to obey his voyce Iohn 10. and not to give eare unto strangers . And from his blessed Word we have learned these two lessons , the first that wheresoever the Gospel of the Kingdome of Iesus Christ is faithfully and truly Preached by Ministers sent by him , and where this Everlasting Gospell is imbraced and believed and yeelded obedience unto by the people , and where there is the right Administration of the holy Sacraments and the true invocation of God , they are a true church or churches , although they be fluid , and be not fixed in their Officers and members , and have not that externall forme either the Papists or the Independents speake of ; and for this our faith , we have warrant from Gods holy Word . Secondly we are taught out of the holy Scriptures , also that there may be a true church or churhes in many nations and kingdomes where they injoy not all the Ordinances in a publicke manner : nor where their very meetings together are not allowed unto them by authority ; for all such as confine a church or churches to these externall formes they speak of , they confound the essence and substance of a church with the adjuncts and Accideuts of it ; whereas churches may be true churches , and yet want the externall forme of Government , as may by innumerable places of holy Scripture be proved : as for instances . In Israel where God had set up his owne worship and established a forme of Government , and commanded that it should punctually be observed , yet we read in the 2 of the Chron. chap. 15. ver . the 3. these words : Now for a long season Israel was without the true God , and without a teaching Priest , and without law . So that from this place we may gather , that their did not then appeare any externall forme of a church , no not in Israel , when the true God was not publickly known amongst them , and yet notwithstanding God had there his true church amongst them , yea in the greatest height of Idolatry when all the Prophets were persecuted and lay hid in Caves , yet at that time also , God had seven thousand that never bowed knee to Baal ; So that it is evident that it is not the externall forme that is absolutely required for the making of a true church , but it may be a true church without that externall appearance they speak of : For a church is one thing , and the outward forme and discipline is another . And truly if a man will not suffer himselfe willingly to be deluded with appearances and naked shaddowes for the truth it selfe , and will but consider the great variety and change of the church in respect of the outward alteration of the government of it in all ages , after God himself had set it up in Abrahams Family , and consider it in all its peregrinations and pilgrimages , and that after God had given unto Abraham and his seed such directions for the setting up of his worship wheresoever he and his posterity should come , and should also behold the diverse alterations of things in the worship and service of God , and if he should with all consider that if the church should have been onely to be found where there had been such visible ordinances and formes of Worship and Government as God had appointed , and no where else ; then there would not have been a church of God any where visibly to appear and be found many times in the world in those dayes ; and yet the true church alwayes remained in Abrahams Family and God had his people and a true church amongst his seed , as will appear by these examples . I will briefly name some . We know that the Israelites and Hebrewes the onely people of God and his first borne , continued many generations as strangers in Aegypt , all the which time they never offered up any outward Sacrifices unto God ; for that had been an abomination to the Aegyptians and they would not tolerate and suffer that in their land ; which moved Moses to sollicite Pharaoh , to give the people of God leave that they might go a dayes journy to sacrifice in the Wilderness , giving him the reason of his postulation saying , that they could not sacrifice in Aegypt , for that was an abomination to the Aegyptians : So that it is apparent that all the time they remained in Egypt , they had not that publike Ordinance & that externall form of worship : And yet all that while they were a true Church and were visibly known by their Religion to be distinct from the Egyptians , as who professed the knowledge and worship of the true God whose name they called upon through all their tribes and whom they served night and day : and yet I say they had not the use of publike sacrifices : onely they had Circumcision amongst them that discriminating Ordinance from other nations . But if that had been the forme of this true Church , then all the time they remained in the wilderness which was forty years , there was no visible forme of a Church : for they circumcised not their children there , and that reproach was not taken away till they came to Gilgall , or at lest had passed the red Sea. So that if the Church had been tyed to externall formes , we shall for many years together finde no true formed Church in those times . Nay when they were come into the land of Canaan , how often was the face of the Church in the dayes of the Judges so deformed as no man almost could see any forme or comlinesse in it ; all the externall beauty which was the worship , being either wholy forgotten or so adulterated and polluted with Idolatry as there was not left any appearance of a true Church amongst them ? and yet at that time they were the people of God and his chosen people and a true Church ; but if they had sought to know it by any externall form it could never have bin found : So that the Church of God may be a true church though it want an outward form and discipline . Yea after that God had set up his worship in the dayes of David and Solomon , and had commanded that that forme of Government should be continued and perpetuated to the coming of the Messiah , how many alterations notwithstanding were there found both in Iuda and Israel , and how did Idolatry spread it selfe abroad through both those Kingdomes , So that Idolatry was not only committed under every green tree and in all groves and upon every mountain and high place , but even in Jerusalem the holy city yea in the very Temple ? So that now there was no externall forme of a Church left , and yet then also had God his Church there , and they were the people of God and dearly beloved of him . And again when they were carryed into captivity into Babilon , we know that all the time they continued there , they had neither sacrifices nor many other ordinances that God had appointed amongst them , they could not so much as sing a song of Sion in that strange land , and wee read of no other exercises amongst them but of the morall worship of prayer and reading the prophets and of prophecying and comforting of one another in the Lord , and of their resolution not so much as to bow in the least to worship any Idoll of the heathens , or so much as stooping to reverence any professed enemy of the people of God , as Mordecay would not to Haman , nor the three children to the idoll of Nebuchadnezer , nor Daniel leave his praying ; but all these kinde of services are not accompted the forme of a Church amongst the learned , and yet wee read of no other formes of worship the Jews had , neither through all the Provinces of Ahasuerus and through all Babilon and Assyria and Aegypt where they were scattered ; We read indeed that they fasted and prayed upon all occasions , and that they spake one to another , and they exercised amongst themselves the morall worship in all their Synagogues which were all the true Churches of God then through the world ; and yet they had not that visible forme that God had appointed , in any of those Countryes whither they were driven and carryed captives ; they onely made their prayers and supplications toward Ierusalem and the Temple the holy place . So that if the Church of God had been at any time tyed to externall formes they could not then have been Churches properly so called , as not having any externall forme ; and yet they were all before the law and under the law and since the law true Churches , notwithstanding they wanted the externall forme and discipline . And the same may be said of the Church of God since the beginning and growth of Antichrist , that it hath been so defaced for many generations together that none by its externall forme or discipline could find a true Church in it ; yet God had in this spirituall Babylon a true Church ever ; and therefore the true Church is not confined to externall formes and discipline . But to say nothing of that , if the Christian Church be bounded within these limits , either the Papists or the Independents encompasse in their Churches with , then I affirme that the very Church of Jerusalem was not a true formed Church , which notwithstanding they both acknowledge was a true Church , and the Independents confesse that it was the first formed Church , Acts the second : For in the Church of Ierusalem there was neither Pope , nor Cardinalls , nor Patriarkes , nor Primates , nor Paultripolitans , nor Archbishops , nor any Conclave , nor any Masses , nor any of that Service they have set up in their Romish Church , nor that Forme of Church Government they have established : neither had they any of these fixed officers . And therefore the Church of Rome having lost that forme the Church of Ierusalem had , and being adulterated both in doctrine discipline and manners , that cannot be a true Church ; and then it will follow , That the true Church is not so tyed to any externall forms that if they be failing they cannot be a true Church ; for then there sho●ld have been no true Church or Churches in the world all the times of Antichrists reigne . Nay , if the doctrine of the Independents be true and orthodox , the very Church of Jerusalem , Acts the 2. which they call the first formed church , was no more a true formed church , nor cast into a Church mould according to the New Testament forme , then those that were baptized by Iohn the Baptist were ; for they describe a Church unto us after the New Testament forme to be a company of Saints or Beleevers , consisting of no more in number then can all meet together in one place or congregation , having their distinct officers and members united together into one body by a particular explicite Covenant : So as that assembly or church must not be fluid , but fixt in its members and officers ; having a Presbytery of its own with absolute authority and jurisdiction within it selfe Independent and injoying all Gods holy Ordinances . This is the discription of an Independent Church after the New Testament forme as they call it , as far as by their practise and writings we can gather ; So that whatsoever Church wants this forme according to their language , is no true formed church , as not being cast into a church mould after the New Testament forme : And by this their modell the church it selfe of Ierusalem was not a true moulded church after the New Testament forme , as I shall here briefly in some particulars shew , and more largely demonstrate when I come to my brother Burton . For it is confest by the Independents that at that time there were three thousand soules added to the church , and five thousand after that , it was then a true formed Church after the New Testament forme ▪ and yet at that time they acknowledge they wanted Deacons and Presbyters ; and they confesse withall as we shall see in its due place , they wanted that part of discipline of casting out corrupt Members , so that then they had not a Presbytery in the church of Jerusalem ; and withall the Independents affirme that many of the Beleevers and Saints of Ierusalem were inhabitants of other churches through Iudaea ; for they say there were many other churches there , and that many of those belonged unto the other churches , and it is sufficiently proved also out of the holy word of God and acknowledged by my brother Burton , that there were more assemblies and congregations of Beleevers in the church of Ierusalem then one ; yea he confesses that in its infancy the number of them was so great , as they could not all meet in any one place , and yet they were but one church . Neither do we ever read that they tyed themselves to each other by any particular explicite Covenant or counted such a Covenant the forme of a true church . From all which I gather , that the difinition or description of the Independents Church is erroneous , or if it be orthodoxe , then the very Church of Ierusalem was not a true formed Church after the New Testament formewhen , they say it was . For first , there were more Beleevers in Ierusalem then could all meet in one congregation , or a few , yet though in severall and distinct places and assemblies , they all made but one Church : which is contrary to the Independents doctrine . Secondly , they had no fixt Officers and Members united into one body respectively nor no Presbitery : for if there were not then Deacons at all , nor Elders as the Independents doe acknowledge , and if many of the Beleevers in Ierusalem were strangers , and had their habitations in other cities as they say , then they were not fixt , neither in their Officers nor Members , an● yet a true Church ; not in the Elders nor Deacons , for they then had none at all ; nor in their members , for they confesse many of them were strangers , and did not inhabite and dwell there , and therefore no fixt Members : and for the Apostles they were notfixt , bnt as Noahs Dove was sent out by him and returned with an olive leafe in her mouth , & at the next time departed and went her way , so the Apostles they were the universall Messengers of Christs Kingdome , which were to be sent out into all nations with an olive leafe in their mouthes that trophie of Peace and glad tydings , they were to preach the Gospel in all nations , and howsoever for a time they remained in Ierusalem , yet all men know that was not their abiding place , for they were not fixed Officers there , but were to goe out into all countries to preach and baptize , and when the persecution came , according to the Independents doctrine , then all the Members of that Church were scattered , and there were none left in Ierusalem , if their doctrine be ●ound , but the Apostles : so that it is most certaine those Members were not fixt but fluid when they ran this way and that way to save themselves : so that the Apostles those great Pastors of the Church remained in Ierusalem , according to their language all alone without either sheep or Lambes ; they also were not fixed , bnt were afterward sent into all nations to teach and baptize ▪ as I said before ; withall the Independents confesse , they had no Discipline in the Church of Ierusalem , for they want ed that part of it , viz. excommunication , and therefore they had no Presbytery in it , nor no jurisdiction within it selfe , Ergo it was not a true formed Church after the New Testament forme , if their doctrine be true and good , neither could they then injoy all the acts of worship ; and therefore was no better then those that were made christians by the Baptismeof Iohn ; for in the Church of Ierusalem , there were more then could meet in any one place , which the Independents wil not admit of by their difinition , & they had neither fixed officers nor Members nor that part of disciplin , Ergo , they did not injoy all Gods Ordinances . In a word there was nothing in the Church of Ierusalem that now the Independents require for the moulding up of a Church after the New Testament forme , no more then was amongst those that were baptized by the Baptist . And therefore all that I. S. and the Independents bable about the forme and mould of a Church after the New Testament forme , is to little purpose , yea meere vainty : for it is evident out of the holy Scripture , that a Church may be a true formed Church after the New Testament forme , although it want all those things that either the Papists or the Independents thinke absolutely necessary for the moulding up a Church after the New Testament forme . For the very Church of Ierusalem which was the Mother-church , and which was to be a patterne to all other Churches was a true formed Church , and at that very time according to the Independents learning ; and yet I say then , shee had neither fixed Officers nor Members , nor any external explicite particular covenant , nor discipline , nor many other requisites that they now require as necessary for the forming of a true Church , as wee shall see more at large in its due place . But now to returne and come more closely to examine I. S. his words that we may discover yet more fully the fallacious juglings of both himselfe and all the Independent Ministers , and that all the people may the better understand what it is to to be cast into a Church mould after the New Testament forme , and vvhat is absolutely necessary and required of all men to be made a Member of a Christan Church , and vvhat that forme is the Scripture holdeth out unto all Christians , to be the mould of a christian Church according to the New Testament forme , all vvhich termes and expressions being vvell explaned , then the grollery of those of the congregationall vvay vvill the better appeare . I will therefore that those that are the most ignorant may the better understand the termes these Juglers use , First say something briefly concerning the governement of the Church of the Iewes under the Law in Moses his time , and under the Kings both of Iuda and Israel through all their cities , and what it was that was requisit and thought necessary for the casting off any into a Church mould after the old Testament forme ; which being declared , the trifling of all the Independent Ministers will be more obvious to all men . For the manner of the governement of the Church of the Iews , wee are to consider it under a double nation , as it had a ceremoniall service and a morall worship and both appointed by God ; yet the former but temporary , the other for duration . Now in regard of the manner of the administration it was divers ; for the ceremoniall worship was ordered after a monarchicall way ; there was a high Priest that typified Christ ▪ that was to make the atonement betweene God and the people , who was in a speciall manner to mediate with God for the twelve Tribes of Israel ▪ and hee had many Priests under him for the offering up of daily sacrifices , either of prayses or of reconciliation in the materiall Temple they were tyed ; but the High Priest onely went once a yeare into the Holy of holies , for the making of an attonement for himselfe and the people , and this way of administration of the Church continued to the coming of Christ who was the true high Priest typified , and who through the eternall spirit having offered himselfe without spot to God , to purge our consciences from dead workes to serve the living God , Heb. 10. verse 14. and for this cause is the Mediator of the New Testament ; by his death and suffering hee hath put an end to that way of administration . But there was an other way of Administration in respect of the morall worship , which was ever to remaine in the Church ; and that was in their severall Cities , in their Synagogues and Villages , and all those Synagogues that were through all Iudaea and Israel , and through the vvorld , vvho vvere all governed by Presbyters and Elders vvhich vvere called Rulers ; so that all those Synagogues that vvere in the severall Villages or Hamlets within the jurisdiction and limits of every Citie were all of them governed after a classicall and collegiate way , and those Synagogues were as our Parish Churches now at this day are amongst us . Now these Elders and Rulers in Moses time were first appointed to rule and governe the people in common , so long as they were in the Wildernesse ; but after they were come into the Land of Canaan , then they had their Elders and Rulers in every Citie appointed over them , who had the government of the people committed unto them , and whose care it was that the morall worship and service of God , as the reading of the Law and the Prophets , and the interpretation of the same should be every Sabbath day continually preserved in all their Synagogues , by their Priests and Levites , and Scribes and Lawyers , and they had also the power in their hands of conventing any before them upon Delinquency , and of censuring and punishing of them upon proofe of the same : And they were called the Church , as is to be seene Matthew the 18. and there is not any truth almost in all the new testament that is more evidently cleare than this , that all the Synagogues were governed by a Court or Classis or College of Rulers , for they had inferior judges and Superiour in them yea many chiefe rulers in all cities as we may see in Antioch and Pisidia Acts the 13. 14. 15. where Paul and his company went into the Synagogue on the Sabbath day and sate downe , and after the reading of the Law and the Prophets , the chiefe Rulers ( for so it is in the originall ) sent unto them , saying men and brethren , if you have any word of exhortation for the people , say on . Out of which words these three things are observable . First , That there were many Governors and chiefe Rulers as well as inferior rulers that governed their Synagogues in every city in common , and that they had a Courte in them to order all the Synagogues and people under their jurisdiction , and that they were all Aristocratically governd and by the common counsell of them all , not by any particular Iudge or Ruler . The second observable is , that their whole imployment was to uphold and preserve the true worship of God , and to see that the Holy Scriptures were read and interpreted , that men women and children might be brought up in the nurture and feare of the Lord , and that all things should be managed with order and decency . The third thing observable , is this , that their people yeelded subjection unto those Rulers , and did not intermeddle with their government , nor did not take upon them to command any Minister to Preach or appoint any one to exhort : but it was the place of the Rulers to doe this , and they willingly submitted themselves to this Government without joyning themselves in commission with them , as knowing it was their place to obey . And this kind of Government , was that that was established in all cities through the world where the Jewes were permitted to exercise their Religion , and this kind of government was transacted over to the Christian church to be perpetutated to the ende of the world , and therfore there was through all cities Presbyters ordained as the Scripture saith Acts the 14. and Tit. 1. that were to governe the church by their common councell ; and this is accorded unto by all the Independents who acknowledge that in the Apostles times and many Generations after , all the churches of the New testament were governed communi consilio presbyterorum ; And that the Church of Jerusalem in respect of the moral worship was governed both in Christs time and after his death and ascention , by a colledge of Elders and Presbyters , all the Evangelists and the Acts of the Apostles doe testifie it ; and this way of government I say was transacted over to the Christian church and is that forme and mould of church government that is according to the New Testament forme , into the which mould of government those that were baptized by Iohn were cast which was a Presbytery . For the Scripture never speakes of that of the congregationall way . And this shall suffice to have spoke at this time and in this place concerning the manner of the Administration of the government both in respect of the Ceremoniall service and morall worship under the Law , and what it ought to be under the Gospel . And now a word or two concerning the manner of admitting members then into the church of the Iewes and what was reputed necessary for the making of any one a member and Proselite there after the old testament forme ; and what is required now for making of any a member of the Christian church . The whole Scripture of the old testament and the new declares that all those that were aliens and strangers unto the common-wealth of Israel , if they desired to be made partakers of the priviledges of the Iews and to be all accompted in the number of the people of God , they were to be instructed in the Law of Moses , and they were to yeeld obedience unto that , and in token that they beleeved in the true God , and submitted themselves to his Law and to that discipline he had taught in the bookes of Moses and the Prophets , they were to be circumcised , which when they yeelded unto and tooke the Covenant of Circumcision , they were forthwith made members of the Church of the Iewes , and had as good right to all the ordinances of God under that government as any other of the Iewes ; and this I say is sufficiently confirmed in the holy Scriptures everywhere . Now under the New testament the Church of God being compared sometimes to a Kingdom and Empire , and sometimes to a city ; and all the members of it being compared to free Denizons and citizens , where so ever the Gospel of this Kingdom and City is faithfully preached , and the people by the Embassadours and Ministers of the same being invited to come in and yeeld obedience unto it , if they do believe and obey , that is , if they do beleeve and repent and willingly submit unto the sound of it , and offer themselves to make profession of it , and in signe of this their obedience and faith receive the seale of this Covenant and are baptized , they are forthwith to be admitted without any reluctation , and having once received the seale of this Covenant the seale of Baptisme , they are forthwith made free Denizons of this Kingdome and free-men of this city , and have as good right to all the priviledges of the same as any other , and may through the whole world of Christians partake in all the Ordinances of that Kingdome and City as well as any other Christians : as in the Roman Empire and now in all Corporations through the world , they that were Citizens of Rome or they that are Freemen in any of them , as they did then partake in all the priviledges of the Romans and might abide and dwell in any place , and trafficke , buy and purchace in what part of it they pleased , injoying all those inmmnities that any then did , and so likewise now as those that are Free-men of any city or corporation do in their severall precincts injoy all the priviledges of each of them , and may set up in any Parish or in any part of the city or within the jurisdiction of the same , and exercise all their severall trades , and have as much priviledge for their so doing as any of the other Citizens ; so I say in the same manner , it is in the Kingdom of Christ and his city which is his church , Every one that makes profession of the Gospell , that beleeves , repents and is Baptized , has as good right to all the Ordinances of the Church as any Christian in the primitive times or any Independents now in the world , and that by vertue of the great Charter of this Kingdome and City the Gospell , and by the practice of Iohn the Baptist and the Apostles , who required no more of all men and people in their time for the making of them members of Christs Church but that they should repent and beleeve and be Baptized , as we may see in the third of Matth. and in the second of the Acts , and in those of Samaria in the 8. Chapter , and in the Eunuch Paul , Lydia , and the Goaler , and those of Cornelius his house , of all the which no more was required for the making of them Christians but to repent and beleeve and to be Baptized , by which they were invested with a right to all the priviledges through all Churches in the world and might partake in all the Ordinances of Christs Kingdome where so ever they came , as we may see in Paul and those that accompanyed him in his journies . Wheresoever they came they communicated with them in all Churches , in all the Ordinances as in the breaking of bread and prayer : So that to repent and beleeve , and to be baptized , is all that according to the Gospell of Jesus Christ is required of any man or of any people to cast them into a Church mould according the New Testament forme , and to make them not only members of the Catholike visible Church , but of any church in particular , if the Word of God is to be beleeved and given credit unto . Now when all those that came out of Ierusalem unto Iohn , did repent and beleeve and were baptized by Iohn the Baptist , they were cast into a Church mould after the New Testament forme and were all made as good members of that church as any that were baptized after Christs death and ascention by Peter and the other Apostles , and might whensoever they went from Jerusalem to any other place where christians dwelt , partake in all the ordinances as those did that by reason of the persecution were scattered , who we read of that wheresoever they came they went into their Synagogues and Churches , and they preached and converted the people , and partaked and communicated in all the ordinances amongst them without any gain-saying ; and so all the Christians that are true Beleevers and are baptized , wheresoever they travell or dwell whether in France or Germany , Italy or the Low Countryes , or in any part of the world amongst the true Protestants , they have as great right to all the ordinances in those churches as any of the Natives : For they are all free Denizons of Christs Kingdome and free men of the city the church of God which is Christs mysticall body , and therefore as members of the same may partake in all the Priviledges and Benefits that any member may do ; I mean in respect of the ordinances , as breaking of bread , hearing of the word preached and in prayer and all the essentiall priviledges ; for to all those they have right unto by their very admission into the church by their baptisme , and whosoever shall refuse communion with them that beleeve , and are baptized and live a godly holy and pious life , unlesse they will observe their own traditions , they are Delinquents & Prevaricators against the King of his church Iesus Christ , and do no way set him up upon his throne , but by this meanes they dis-throne him . And therefore J. S. and all those of his fraternity , that not onely unchristian and unchurch all those that were baptized by Iohn the Baptist and Christs Apostles before Christs death , but at this day unchurch and unchristian all Christians and Churches but their own , are guilty of high contumacy against the King of Saints and King of Kings , and are most injurious to all their christian Brethren : And truly there cannot be found scarse in the world such an example of temerity and unadvised rashnesse and want of charity and common wisdome , as is every day to be observed amongst the Independents who are ever talking of a Church mould after the New Testament forme , and excluding all from being true Churches that are not so moulded , and yet never tell us what it is . For in the holy Scripture we have never read of any other Church mould or of any New Testament forme , but of publishing the Gospel and of preaching faith and repentance , and of yeelding obedience unto it , and of beleeving and repenting and being baptized , which both John the Baptist and all Christs Disciples and the blessed Apostles and all the faithfull Ministers of the Gospel had a commission to do , and a command withall , and a blessing annexed unto it , that whosoever did repent , beleeve and was baptized , should not onely be admitted a visible member of the catholicke visible Church , but should be saved . The words of our Saviour Christ unto his Disciples , Marke 16. ver . 15 , 16. are these , Go ( saith he ) into all the world , and preach the Gospel to every creature ; he that beleeveth and is baptized shall be saved ; but he that beleeveth not shall be damned . Out of the which words and commission of our Saviour I evidently gather that when John the Baptist and Christs Disciples in their severall ministryes went according to their commission preaching from place to place and from city to city and publishing the glad tydings of the kingdom of the Messiah and baptizing such as beleeved , they cast them into a Church mould after the New Testament forme , and therefore made them all members not onely of the Catholique visible Church but of all those severall particular Churches and Synagogues through all the cities of Judaea and through the world where they preached the Gospel , as well as at Ierusalem , and that as many of Ierusalem as were baptized by Iohn and Christs Disciples were all members of that Church and as truly moulded into a Church mould after the New Testament forme and made as reall members and free denizons of Christs Kingdome as any of the new congregations at this day , unlesse any will think and beleeve that John the Baptist and the blessed Apostles were ignorant how to gather Churches , and nescient of the right mould and forme of the New Testament churches , and had not learned their lesson so well as our Independent Ministers : which were a piece of impiety and horrid wickednesse to affirme : For then it would follow , that those that were baptized by Iohn and by the Apostles and Christs seventy Disciples , were never saved : For I. S. denyes they were Christians and that they were cast into a church mould after the New Testament forme , or members of the christian church , and therefore by consequent they were in the state of damnation . But if all this be wickednesse so much as to think , then there is a way yet to Heaven and that a safe one which the Independents are ignorant of ; for they preach up their way as the narrow way to heaven , proclaiming all those that are out of it to be enemies of Jesus Christ and his kingdome , and in the state of perdition ; and yet Iohn the Baptist was ignorant of their way and cast not his Disciples into their mould , and yet they went safely to the Kingdome of heaven , yea they entred into it by violence as our Saviour speaketh . And therefore by this that I have now said by way of answer , all men may see the futility and impiety of I. S. and how groundlesse all his arguments are , and may very well conclude , That all those that were baptized by John the Baptist and by Christs Disciples before his death , were members of Christs Church and true beleevers , and that as many of them as came from Jerusalem were members of that church ; and they may also from the foregoing arguments gather , That those that came out of Jerusalem to his baptism were in such multitudes ( for all Ierusalem went out unto him and were baptized ) as they could not all possibly meet in any one place or congregation or a few ; & therfore I am confident that all those that shall read both what Mr Knollys and I. S. have fondly and impiously replyed to my arguments , and what by way of answer I have here set down , will adjudge , that such unworthy wranglers and cavillers as these are ought by their severall Churches to be severely censur'd for this their ignorance and impiety . And this shall serve to have replyed to these their exceptions against my first arguments concerning the multitudes baptized by Iohn the Baptist : I shall answer to all their other severall cavills in their due places . I will now therefore go on to shew the increase of beleevers that were made by the miracles and preaching both of Christ and his Apostles , and from the severall places out of the holy Scripture frame my arguments as out of the former to prove the same conclusion . John the 4. ver . 1 , 2. Now when the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Iesus made and baptized more Disciples then Iohn ( though Iesus himselfe baptized not , but his Disciples : ) Here observe that where there was a mistake in the relation , there the Evangelist forthwith shews it to rectifie mens understandings ; as where it was reported that Christ baptized , he shewes it was a mistake , for his Disciples onely baptized : but where it is said , that Iesus made more Disciples then Iohn , that is taken pro confesso ; and it was true ; for Iohn himselfe in the 3. chapter ver . 30. had said , He must increase , but I must decrease . Christ therefore made many more Disciples and Beleevers then Iohn , and added dayly to the church , that was then in Jerusalem , such as should be saved ; for he came to save the lost sheep of the house of Israel , and he received all that came to him , John the 6. 37. And as many as received him , to them he gave power to become the sonnes of God , even to them that beleeve upon his name , John 1. 12. And these were infinite multitudes , as we shall see by and by . In Iohn the 7. 31. it is said that many of the people of Ierusalem beleeved on him ; And verse the 40. they said , of a truth this is that Prophet : And in the same chapter when the high Preists sent the officers to apprehend Christ , and returning without him , and the high Priests demanding the reason why they had not brought him , the officers replyed saying , That never man spake as this man. ver . 47 , 48. Then answered the Pharisees , are ye also deceived ? Doth any of the Rulers or the Pharisees believe in him ? But this people that knoweth not the Law is cursed . Take here notice of the confession of the very Pharisees ; excepting themselves and the High Priests , they acknowledge that the generality of the people believed in him . Here was increase upon increase of Christians and Believers , all the people generally believed in him : certainely one place could not have contained them all . And which is yet more to be observed ; that whereas the Pharisees said , none but the cursed people believed in him , and none of the Rulers ; in this very chapter we finde one Ruler one Nicodemus , Vers . 50. none of the least of the Rulers . And in Iohn 12. 42. it is affirmed , That among the chiefe Rulers many believed on him , but because of the Pharisees they did not confesse him , lest they should be put out the Synagogue . And in Verse 11. of the same chapter , it is asserted , That many of the Iewes went away and believed on Iesus ; here was multiplication upon multiplication of Believers . And in Vers . 19. The Pharisees therefore said among themselves , perceive ye how ye prevaile nothing ? behold the world is gone after him . These words the Pharisees spake in private among themselves deliberately , and confest that the world of men were turned Christians ; all Ierusalem swarmed with Believers ; without doubt all these could not meet in one place . And indeed through all the Evangelists we shall reade of infinite multitudes that believed in him ; and the reason is given , Matth. 7. 29. Because he taught them as one having authority , and not as the Scribes : and did such works of wonder , and wrought such miracles , as in Iohn 7. 31. they confest none could do but Christ : and in Chap. 12. Vers . 11. it is related , that the raising up Lazarus from the dead made many believe on him , and was the cause that such multitudes of people followed him , and did so highly honour him and magnifie him ; and did receive him comming into Jerusalem with such an acclamation , crying , Hosanna , as in this 12 Chapter is specified ; and is more largely set downe in Matth. 21. 8. where it is related , That a great multitude spread their garments in the way , and others cut down branches , and the people that went before , and they that came after , cryed Hosanna , and said , this is Jesus the Prophet of Nazareth ; they all believed in him , and confessed him before the world . Now our Savionr saith , He that shall confesse me , and own me before men , I will confesse and own him before my Father in Heaven . Here is a whole City of Believers and Confessors . Yes , the very children believed in him ▪ and openly , and in the Temple cried Hosanna . And Christ himself allowed of their testimony , and avouched they did well , and accordingly as was written . And in Luke 19. 47 , 48. it is said , That he taught dayly in the Temple , but the chief Priests and Scribes , and the Elders of the people sought to destroy him , and could not finde what they might do ; for all the people were very attentive to heare him . The universality therefore of the people by all these places were believers , and such as followed Christ : So that a man may wonder , how that Ierusalem it self , though it were a mighty City , could containe such multitudes of people as believed in Christ : so far improbable it is , that any one place or Congregation could containe the hundreth part of them . And we may also gather , that the great miracles at his Suffering , and at his Resurrection , and the apparition of so many that rose from their graves and went into the holy City , made a great increase and addition of Disciples and new Believers ; so that the number was daily augmented ; we finde no diminution : but if some that followed Christ for bread , that were but Hypocrites , left following him ; yet in those places we read again and again of numberlesse companies that daily came in , and believed in him . And to all this we may adde , that Iohn the Baptist and his Disciples , a little before his death ; and Christ and his Disciples , by reason of the increase of the multitudes of Believers , were forced to baptize in severall places . For so it is in Ioh. 3. 23. After these dayes came Iesus and his Disciples into the land of Iudea , and there he tarried with them and baptized , and Iohn also was baptizing in Enon ▪ neere Salim , because there was much water there , and they came and were baptized . And very reason will tell all men , that of necessity there must be an innumerable multitude of beleevers , ( for none were Baptized but beleevers ) that must take up an hundred preachers or thereabouts ; for our Saviour had twelve Apostles , and 70. Disciples , as we may see in the 9. of Luke , and in the 10. chapter of the same book : and Iohn had also many Disciples , though not so many as Christ , and all these were imployed in preaching the Gospell , and many of them in working miracles and wonders ; so that the very Devills were subject unto them , as they rejoycingly confest to Christ , when they returned to give him an account of their Ministery . And without doubt if these miracles wrought so with the very Disciples , they prevailed much more generally with the people to make them beleeve ; so that infinite multitudes of people came in and were Baptized , as the Scripture it selfe informeth us . And of necessity , so many Ministers , must have severall places to Preach in , and severall congregations and Assemblies to Preach to , and severall places to Baptize in : for otherwise there would have beene great confusion ; for but one of them could speake at once ; and all these Disciples were taken up in their severall Ministeries , and had their hands full , as the Scripture it self sufficiently declareth in expresse words ; for it is said , That Christs Disciples Baptizedin Indaea : and Iohn in Enon neere Salim , because there was much water there . It seemes there was too little water to Baptize them in , in others places , which expression is worthy to be taken notice of . And amongst those that came to be Baptized , multitudes of them came from Ierusalem . And if wee compare times with times , which will make much for the evidencing of the truth , and consider the divers passages in the holy Scriptures , wee shall find the like division of the people in those dayes ; some standing for Christ and Iohn Baptist , and speaking in the justification of them and their Ministery , and others that were of the Pharisaicall faction , and of the high Priests company ; as is even in these our dayes , betweene them they call Caviliers , and those they call Parliamentiers . Now what twenty or thirty places in the Citie of London , can containe all the Parliamentiers to partake in all acts of Worship ? Or what ten places can hold all those of the Prelaticall Faction , that contend for their Bishops and Service , and all their other trumpery and accoutrements ? And yet , although they be in divers and sundry Assemblies , they are still the Prelaticall party , and all of them of the Malignant Church : and as the diversity of the places changeth not their complexions , so it altereth not their faith , nor manners , but they continne still Malignants and remaine all Members of the Malignant Church . And as in these dayes all that wish well unto the true Religion through both citie and kingdome , and love their countrey , stand for the Parliament ; so in those dayes those that loved Zion and the prosperity of Jerusalem cleaved unto Christ and the Gospel and stood for him , and all his Ministers ; and by all computations , though all the power and Authority was in the hands of the malignant Magistrates of those times , who were swayed and guided by the Scribes , Pharisees , Elders , and the high Priests ; yet to one Pharisee or Malignant Scribe or Ruler , there was ten of those that beleeved in Christ , and honoured him and all his Ministers and Disciples . Yea the Pharisees themselves do acknowledge it , not once but many times , as is evident from the places above cited , and many more that might be produced . So that if I should frame no Argument out of them , it is apparent , that those new additions of Beleevers that were converted by Christ and his Ministry , considered by themselves a part , from those that Saint Iohn the Baptist converted , were so great and numerous , that they could not all meet in any one place for partaking of all acts of worship , but of necessity must be distributed into severall Congregations and Assemblies , if they would all be edified ; much lesse could they all meet together , being joyned to those that beleeved through the Baptisme and Ministry of Iohn . But out of the former places above specified I thus argue . Where there was an innumerable multitude of beleevers , in a word , the whole people and Citie of Ierusalem , whom the Pharisees accounted accursed , there they could not all meet at any one time , or in any one roome or place and in one Congregation , to partake in all the Ordinances , but of necessity must bee distributed into severall assemblies , and divers Congregations , if they would all bee edified : But in Ierusalem ( the Scribes and Pharisees , and Rulers , by their owne confession , being excepted ) there was an innumerable multitude of beleevers , and in a word , the whole people and Citie of Jerusalem , whom the Pharisees accounted accursed . Ergo , they could not all meet together at one time , and in one place to partake in all the Ordinances , but of necessity must be distributed into severall assemblies and divers congregations , if they would all be edified . For the major , no rationall man will deny is , that hath but read the Scriptures , or is but a little acquainted with the Histories of those times . For the minor , it is evident from the places produced ; and therefore the conclusion doth necessarily follow . But I yet further thus argue . Where there was a world of beleevers , with many Rulers and men of great place and office , with infinite multitudes of men and children , & all the people , they could not al meet together at one time , and in one place and congregation to partake in all acts of worship ; but of necessity must be distributed into divers assemblies and severall congregations , if they would all be edified . But in the Church of Jerusalem , there was a world of beleevers , with many Rulers and men of great place and office , with multitudes of men and children , and all the people . Ergo , they could not all meet together at one time and in one place , to partake in all acts of worship , but of necessity must be distributed into divers congregations and assemblies if they would be all edified . For the Major , it is evident by the very light of nature , neither will any rationall man deny it , that hath not resolved to sacrifice himselfe to stupidity . For the Minor , the places above specified prove it : for in expresse words it is said , that the world followed him ; that is , believed in him , and that great multitudes entertained him with their acclamations , and crying Hosanna , the very children also seconding them . And that the chiefe Priests , Scribes , and Elders , sough● to destroy him , and could not find what to doe , for all the people were very attentive to heare him . The whole people we see here , or the generality of them , except the Scribes , Pharisees , Elders , and High Priests , ( which in comparison of them were very few ) beleeved in Jesus Christ , and were his Disciples , and such as were converted by his Ministry ; and such a multitude there was of them , as for that present , they so awed the High Priests and Elders , that they durst not destroy Christ , though they desired it ; so that the minor stands firme ; and from the premises the conclusion necessarily followeth . But out of the former places I yet further thus argue . Where ther was such an increase of multitudes of Beleevers , as that there was not water enough in any one place to baptize them all , nor any one place in the wildernesse capable to containe or receive them all ; so that Christ himselfe , and his seventy Disciples , and twelve Apostles , and Iohn Baptist and all his Disciples , were for the numerosity of them , forced in severall places to preach unto them and baptize them ; there they could not all meet at any one time , or in any one place or roome , or in one Congregation , to partake or communicate in all acts of worship ; but of necessitie were to be distributed into severall congregations or assemblies , if they would all be edified . But in Jerusalem there was such multitudes of beleevers that went out to the Baptisme of John and Christ , as that there was not water enough in any one place to baptize them all , nor any one place in the wildernesse capable to containe or receive them all : so that Christ himselfe and his seventy Disciples , and his twelve Apostles , and Saint John Baptist and his Disciples , were for the numerosity of them forced to divide themselves into severall places , and severall assemblies and congregations , that all the people might partake in all acts of worship , and be edified . Ergo , they could not all meet at any one time , or in any one place , but were of necessity forced to divide and distribute themselves into divers places , and severall congregations and assemblies , that they might all be edified . For the Major and Minor of the Syllogisme , they are so evident , both by reason , and the holy Scripture , that no man that hath not resolved with himselfe to remaine incredulous , and continue in his obstinacy , can deny the truth of them ; so that the conclusion of necessity must from the premises be granted . And all these multitudes of people were beleevers before Christs Suffering , Resurrection , and Ascension . Now before I goe on to declare what infinite multitudes of beleevers were added to those that were converted by Iohns and the Disciples Ministry in the Church of Ierusalem , after Christs death , and ascension , which makes it an impossible thing , that they should all meet in one place or a few ; I shall desire the Reader here to consider what Master Knollys , and I. S. have replyed by way of answer to all these Arguments . I will first set downe Master Knollys his Reply with his Reasons , and give my answer to him , and then in order come to what I. S. that learned Gentleman hath to gainesay : Master Knollys denyes all the Minors of these Arguments as his manner is , and gives some slender reasons , and makes some sleight evasions and thinkes that enough . His words are these , pag. 8. As for the world of beleevers mentioned in these arguments drawne from John 12. 19. Behold the world is gone after him , that Scripture doth not say , they beleeved in him , much lesse that there was a world of beleevers in the Church of Jerusalem . These are Master Knollys formall words , and all the ground of his denyall of the minor of all my Arguments , yea all that he hath to say against them . And it is wonderfull to see , how the people are satisfied with such delusions . But by this kind of Disputing , if it be sufficient for refutation , to deny any Arguments grounded upon the holy Scriptures , confirmed and corroborated by sound reasons : then for ought I know , men may not only confute the whole word of God , and whatsoever is evidently proved from thence , but indeed deny the Christian Religion . But that all men may take notice of this mans ignorance , and blasphemy ( for to say the truth , he giveth the Spirit of God the lye , whiles hee labours to maintaine his erroneous opinion ) & that my answer may be the more satisfactory , I will make these two Propositions evidently appeare . First , that the world here mentioned that went after Christ , were such as beleeved in him . Secondly , that there was a world of beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem , and that they were inhabitants there , both which if I make good , then my Arguments will stand for ever immoveable , and it will follow , that there were more beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem before Christs death converted by himselfe , and by his Disciples , then could all possibly meet in any one place , or congregation or a few ; besides those that were converted by Iohns Ministry , and that this deniall of Mr. Knollys is groundlesse , vaine and impious . For proofe therefore of my first Proposition , viz. that the world here mentioned were beleevers , it is manifest by the insuing reasons . First from the manner of the Scriptures dialect , and that in many places , which intimate and prove , that to follow Christ with love , affection , and approbation , is to be his Schollers and Disciples , and to beleeve in him , Matth. the 16. vers . 24. Marke the 8. v. 34. Luke the 9. verse 29. If any man ( saith Christ ) will come after mee let him deny himselfe and take up his Crosse daily and follow me . So that by these testimonies in Scripture language , to goe a●ter Christ , and to follow him in sincerity , is , to be Christs Scholler and Disciple , and to beleeve in him : For Ch●ist himselfe hath so taught us , in the 12. of Iohn , verse 26. whose words are these , If any man will serve me , let him follow mee , and where I am there shall also my servant be : if any man serve mee , him will my Father honour . So that to serve Christ , and to follow Christ , in Gods dialect , is to beleeve in Christ . Secondly , this is so cleare a truth , that the very blind Pharisees , those Leaders of the blind did well perceive it , and tooke the multitudes following of him in this sense , that they beleeved in him , which their very expression doth sufficiently declare : For say they verse 29. Perceive yee not how you prevaile nothing ? Behold the world is gone after him ; out of which words of theirs it is sufficiently evident , that they did not understand , that like a company of giddy headed people they were gone after him , to gaze and looke upon him , as upon some novelty , but that the multitudes a●d world that followed him , were such indeed as adhered to him , and beleeved in him : for otherwise , it had not beene a matter worthy of admiration and an Ecce , and a behold , for no man wonders at an ordinary thing , to see a company of people run after an eminent man , to view him and looke upon him : for there is nothing more common , nor of lesse admiration ▪ neither would such a spectacle have put them all in feare and upon a consultation , how they might destroy him , and take him out of the world , if they had only thought or beleeved that the world went after him only to take notice of him , and so to have gone home againe ; certainly such an opinion in the Priests & Pharisees as this , would never have so inraged them against Chris● , and have made them all lay their heads together which way to murther him : Neither would it ever have extorted such words out of their heads , as to say amongst themselves in private , and that in a rage and out of indignation , and in a serious way , when they were in a deliberate consultation , behold or perceive you not how the world is gone after him ? but when these words proceeded from them in private , and when they were in a deepe debate and counsell , it is manifest that they spake so out of malice & envie , and from very madnesse which arose from this , that they well perceived , that they that followed Christ beleeved in him ; which is yet more confirmed by many places of holy Scripture that might be produced ; but amongst others , those testimonies in the seventh of Iohn , where in expresse words it is related , that many of the people beleeved on him , and said , when Christ cometh , will hee doe more miracles then these which this man hath done ? and in the 40. verse , many of the people said of a truth this is the Prophet , others said this is the Christ , and all this was in Ierusalem , and vers . 48. Have any of the Rulers and Pharisees ( say they ) beleeved in him ? but this people that knoweth not the Law is accursed ; out of the which place , it is now abundantly evident , that the world spake of , in the 12. chap. were beleevers : for here the Rulers and Pharisees make a distribution of the people of Ierusalem , & divide them into two parties , and then they compare them together , the one that beleeved in Christ and followed him , and were his schollers , and the other that professed they were Abrahams children , and Moses his disciples , yet they were Christs professed enemies , and such as declared themselves not to beleeeve in him : now here what the Rulers and Pharisees judgement was concerning this busines which was one of the parties , who knew very well what they spake , and the people of whom they spake , and of themselves they spake thus , have any of the Rulers and Pharisees beleeved in him ? but this people that knoweth not the Law is accursed . So that being thus compared together , the unbeleevers are the Pharisees and Rulers , and their complices only ; but all the other people of Ierusalem they beleeved in him , in their esteeme , and therefore they adjudged them accursed , which they would never have done if they had followed Christ for no other end , but to have looked upon him : for their words doe import as much , as if they should have said in plaine termes , all the people , or the greatest part of the people in Ierusalem , saving the Rulers and Pharisees beleeve in Christ , and there is none oppose him but they , and that this is their very meaning and sense of the words , as learned men may easily gather . Thirdly , the same is confirmed by Nicodemus his witnesse in private also , who knew very well how the people of Ierusalem stood generally affected towards Christ , and what opinion they had of him : heare therefore what hee saith , Iohn the 3. of whom the Evangelist speaketh thus . There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus , a Ruler of the Iewes , the same came to Iesus by night , and said unto him Rabbi , we know that thou art a Teacher come from God , for no man can doe these miracles except God bee with him . Here Nicodemus gives in testimony , & devidene● that the generality of those in Ierusalem , and of the principallest of them as well as of the meanest , that they beleeved in Jesus , saying we know , that is to say , all the people know , that thou art a Teacher come from God ; they knew it with the knowledge of Faith and approbation , and did really beleeve that hee was come from God , and he gives a reason of his and their faith , saying , that no men can doe those miracles except God bee with him , and therefore they beleeved in him : so that Nicodemus which was a Disciple of Christ , though in secret and a great honourer of him , would give in no false verdict , nor make no false Musters , and he knew very well the opinion and the esteeme the people had of him , and he asserteth that both himselfe and the people knew that Christ was sent of God , which is as much as to beleeve in him : for the same confession did the Apostles make , Matth. 16. and Iohn the 6. saying , we know that thou art the Sonne of the living God. So that to acknowledge Christ , and to beleeve in him , is all one in the language of holy Scripture , and to follow and go after Christ out of sincerity and love and to beleeve in him , is the same if the word of God may be judge in this controversie . So that to goe after Christ then , and to follow him cordially and without worldly ends , both in the language of God and men , is to serve Christ and to beleeve in him : and therefore for all the above mentioned reasons , the world that went after Christ , & the people and multitudes that followed him , were all beleevers , and the others that either tarried at home , and followed their owne imployments , or opposed him , were unbeleevers . Now then when a multitulde from Ierusalem followd Christ , and when a world within Ierusalem went after him , and when all the cursed people ( as they called them ) beleeved in him , not only by the very testimony of the enemies of Christ , but by the witnesses of the holy Scripture , it is sufficiently apparent that the World spake of in the 12. of Iohn , were all beleevers , amongst the which also out of same Chapter is proved , That many of the Rulers also believed in him . So that Master Knollys denying all this , is little better then an Infidell : For an Infidell can do no more then deny the holy Scripture and the manifest truths discovered in them ; and by this that I have now said , though I should not adde a word more , it is manifest , That there were more beleevers at that time in Jerusalem then could all meete in any one place to partake in all the Ordinances , except a mighty city and a world of beleevers may all meete together in one room● or Congregation to communicate in all Acts of worship to edification ; Which was yet never heard of , nor never believed by any man that was not bereaved of his senses and all his wit. But yet for farther Illustration and proofe of this truth , that if it be possible , I may undeceive the poore deluded people , I will adde a reason or two more . The Scripture is so cleare in this point , that there were innumerable believers in Ierusalem , as in the second of the Acts , besides those that were natives there , it is said there were dwellers in Ierusalem , worshippers , or devout men , that is to say beleevers out of all nations under heaven . And all these sayeth the Scripture had their dwelling there . And without all doubt all these severall Nations , had their severall Synagogues in Ierusalem where they heard the Word of God in their owne language , as the Dutch and French and other Nations , here in London have their churches . And the multitudes of the inhabitants in Ierusalem at all times , by the relation of the Historians of those dayes , were scarse ever lesse then seven or eight hundred thousands ; and without all controversie the number was now increased ▪ because they daily and hourely expected the comming of the Messias whose appearing they every moment looked for : and therefore all the believing Iewes out of all Countries repaired in multitudes to Ierusalem : So that such numberlesse numbers , both of the native Iewes and strangers ; required a mighty number of Teachers , and a many places to heare and to be taught in : and that there were above foure hundred Synagogues in Ierusalem , ( which are churches in our dialect ) the pen-men and Historiographers of those times have recorded it : and all this is probable , from the numerosity of Preachers and Teachers there , which the holy Scripture relateth , as the Priests & Levits , Scribes , Pharisees , Lawyers , which all sate in Moses Chaire , and all of them diligently taken up in Preaching to the people and in instructing them , upon whose Ministery by Christs command all the multitude and his very followers were to attend Matth. 23. vers . 1. 2. 3. So that there was no separation then to be made from the publicke Assemblies where the Law and Gospell was taught , nor no gathering of new Churches , under pretence of easting them into a Church mould according to the New testament forme . Christ and his Disciples were not then so deepely learned as to be in that high forme of Divinity ; Christs followers notwithstanding were all Gospell Christians , and were all in a Church way , and I am sure of it , in the right way to heaven , if the way , the truth and the life could teach them the straight way thither : and yet they all followed the old lights still , Moses and the Prophets ; Christ and his Apostles were all their Masters ; we heare then of no new lights , nor new borne truths , nor of new Church moulds , and yet then the Kingdome of heaven suffered violence , and the violent tooke it by force Matth. 11 , 12. they went all well to Heaven , as well and as cheerfully as any of our Independents with their new lights , and their congregationall way . But this by the by . Now I say if there were such multitudes , both of Hearers and Teachers , there was without all doubt many places for them seveally to heare in , and it stands withall reason that the severall strange Nations had Synagogues by themselves , and such men to Teach unto them in their own language as they could understand , or else they could not have been edified , and there is very good ground to induce men to beleeve that I now say : For if there was a Synagogue in Ierusalem of the Libertines , ( as there was ) that is to say of those that had beene slives and bond-men , but were made free , then can any man beleeve that all those severall Nations of the free-men , that abounded also with wealth and honour , ( or else if they had not had great riches , they could never have journied so about from Country to Country and transported their families thither ) I say in all these regardes it stands withall reason that they had their particular Synagogues also , and therefore that they were in mighty multitudes , so that a few places could not containe them all to communicate in all Acts of worship , and therefore of necessity in Christ his time they were distributed into many and severall Congregations ; and all this I say besides the holy Scripture very reason dictats to any man but Master Knollys and I. S. and their fraturnity who all deny , that there were either in Christs life time or after his death more Christians and believers in the church of Ierusalem then could meete in one place or congregation , notwithstanding the holy Scripture sayeth , that there was a world of believers there and that all Jerusalem the very City was full of them . I referre therefore that which I have now spake , to the judgement of all the judicious and learned , whether we ought rather to believe the Holy Scripture of truth , which was indited by the Spirit of truth , or Master Knollys who saith and writeth the contrary by the spirit of error ▪ And this shall suffice to have spake for proofe of my first proposion , to wit that the world that went after Christ were believers , which Master Knollys most fondly and impiously denyeth . The second proposition remaining to be proved is this , that there was a world of beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem , and that they were inhabitants there : Now howsoever by the proving of my former proposition , this latter also was included in it , and proved likewise as all the places above cited do sufficiently shew ; for the place , where the word that followed Christ dwelt , is said to be Ierusalem ; and if we but consult with the holy Scripture , especially the Gospell of Saint Iohn , we shall again and again meet with many testimonies there besides those I have above quoted to prove the same ; so that it may be thought a needlesse work in particular to prove this second proposition , seeing it is already evinced in the former ; yet because Mr Knollys hath made them two propositions , and hath peremptorily delivered it , that there was not a world of beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem : I will , to gratifie him and to satisfie any that will be satisfied , prove this proposition also distinctly and severally by it selfe : viz. That there was a world of beleevers in Ierusalem , and that they were inhabitants there . For proofe of this the 12. chapter of Saint Iohn and the 29. verse , decla●es it saying , behold the world is gone after him : This world was at Ierusalem and inhabitants there , and well known to the Scribes and Pharisees ; which is yet farther ratified out of the 7. chapter ver . 48. where the people that are called accursed had their dwelling , for they were known to the high Priests , Scribes and Pharisees , which they could not have been had they not been Inhabitants ; which is yet more clear from the 21. of Matthew ; where it is manifest , that not only the men of Ierusalem but that the very children cryed Hosanna to the son of David ; and it is wel known to all men what children do ordinarily in a publike way , it was well approved of by their parents who likewise cryed , Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord : as it was here in London at the begining of the parliament , when the king came into the city to seek for the 5 Members , there was not a woman or a child that had a head as big as a crab , but cryed for the Priviledges of Parliament , & commonly as the cock crows , so crows the hen & the chickens . And by all probability it was at that time in Ierusalem , in respect of Christ , as it was then here in respect of the Parliament ; the generality of all the inhabitants believed in him and honoured him , as the people generally in the city did the Parliament ; which is yet more evident from the great indignation and wrath of the Priests and Scribes who were displeased to see the wonderfull things he did , and especially that they heard the children crying in the Temple saying , Hosanna to the sonne of David ; by which they well perceived that the children spake no otherwise then their fathers would have them , and that the whole city of Inhabitants were such as beleeved in him . Yea the second of the Acts addes a great deal of strength to this argument where it is said , That there were devout men dwellers at Ierusalem out of all the Nations under Heaven besides the Inhabitants that were Natives . But the eleventh of Mar. puts all out of doubt , for that chapter speaks plainly of all the Inhabitants and Dwellers in Ierusalem as well as of the strangers that came to the Feast , where it is said there were two mighty parties , either of which so awed the Scribes , chiefe Priests and all the enemies of Christ , that they durst not meddle with him , and the one of them was such as adhered unto Christ and beleeved his doctrine , so that although Christs enemies sought to destroy him , yet they feared him , because , saith the Scripture , ver . 17. all the people were astonished at his doctrine , that is all the people approved of it , and beleeved in him , for he taught as one having authority Matth. 7. The other party were Iohn the Baptists Disciples all beleevers too ; for it is there asserted , that all men compted John that he was a prophet indeed , ver . 32. And this party also kept the chief Priests the Scribes and the Elders , Christs capitall enemies , in such awe , as they durst not attempt any thing against Christ ; and all these were inhabitants of Ierusalem : For it is said in the 28 verse , that all the people were astonished at his doctrine : and it is said ver . 32. that all men counted John a Prophet indeed : Now then if all the people of Ierusalem and all the men of Ierusalem , these two mighty parties and both believers be put together , and were inhabitants there as ●he Scripture relateth , besides the strangers that came up to the Feast , then there was a world of beleevers in the Church of Jerusalem ; and they were inhabitants there : For the place where these Scribes and high Priests were , and where Christ then was , and where all those people were , was in Ierusalem , and all the people well known to the Rulers and Pharisees to be Inhabitants there : So that all men now may see the futility and vanity of Mr Knollys his denyall of my arguments , and may also behold the force and power of truth which asserteth , That there were more beleevers in Jerusalem , then could all meet in any one place , and that in Christs time , unlesse a world of beleevers and those inhabitants can meet together in any one place or congregation to injoy all acts of worship to edification ; which is a grollery , yea madnesse to suppose or think . And this shal serve for answer to what Mr Knollys out of his impious ignorance had to reply against my arguments for the enervating of them . And now I come to I. S. his answer to all my foregoing arguments , by which he would perswade the poor ignorant people , That there was not such a number of Beleevers in Ierusalem , but that they might all meet in one place : For this must necessarily be the scope of his discourse , or else it is nothing to the purpose or against my arguments ; which were to prove , There were more beleevers in Jerusalem and that in Christs time then could possibly meet together in any one Congregation to partake in all Ordinances . The reader may remember that in his former reply , he seemed not to doubt concerning the number of those that were baptized , onely he denyed that those that were baptized by Iohn , were Christians , and that they were cast into a Church mould after the New Testament forme , much lesse that they were members of one Christian Church at Jerusalem ; these are his own words and by this hee thought to overthrow that argument : Now here he useth another method ; tacitly denying the Minor of all my Syllogismes ; and the reason of his denyall is , because as he speaketh , I made false musters ; he thinks me , it seemes , like the Independents , who would perswade the simple that all are Independent ; and amongst other things he saith that I gave the Independents occasion shrewdly to suspect my ignorance . But I will set down his whole babble at larg and in his owne termes and words , and his full answer to all my last arguments as it is page 9 , 10. of his Pamphlet . His words are these . But note ( saith he ) an absurdity in the sequell of the discourse , where the Doctor having got a multiplying glasse in his hand , goes on to make strange discoveryes of the increase of Christian believers . pag. 36. he tells us , that Christ made many more Disciples and Beleevers then John , and added dayly unto the Church , that was then in Ierusalem , such as should be saved . Here 's two Paradoxes : First that Christ made more Disciples then John : Out of whom should hee make them ? when as Iohn had swept all along with him , as you affirme before page 32. and not taking it Synecdochically ( what ever you determine of it here ) . Secondly that Christ should adde dayly to the Church that was in Ierusalem ; is not this a marvellous anticipation and mistake to apply that which was done by the Disciples after Christs ascension ▪ Acts 2. last , unto the ministry of Christ himselfe ? and yet in the sequell you reckon this to the Apostles also expresly page 56. Judge if here be not false musters ▪ And let me tell you , you give us occasion shrewdly to suspect your ignorance ( to say no worse ) to talke of a Church in Jerusalem , besides the nationall church of the Jewes in the life time of our Saviour . Thus hee . If I should discover all the errors that are in this reply , I might make a very large volume : but in regard that all learned men will easily perceive the vanity , childishnesse and horrid impiety of the man in the very reading of it : I shall not be so larg in my answer as otherwise I had thought to have been : and yet before I come to it , I cannot but complain of the dishonesty of the man that thus curtaileth my arguments every where , not plainly setting them down , that the people may see my reasons ; but this is the ordinary way of his disputing who conceales the truth from the ignorant and simple that he may the better poyson them with his errors and noveltyes . After the very same manner dealeth my brother Burton with me , as we shall see in its due place , who passing by all my arguments not so much as mentioning any one of them , makes a rombobombo Syllogisme of his own , which as I suppose he fetcht out of the howling wildernesse of America , and then with Phocions hatchet , that carnall weapon , he fights with his own shaddow , and vapors like a conquerour as I. S. doth here . But now for answer briefly , I affirme that I. S. in confuting of my arguments , by which I proved that there were more converted by Christ and his Disciples and the Apostles Ministry in Jerusalem then by Iohn the Baptist ; and therefore that they could not all meete in one place or Congregation to injoy all Acts of worship , I say in his confuting of my arguments he doth not so much dispute against me , as he doth against Saint Iohn the Evangelist and the very Scripture ; for the discoveries I made by my multiplying glasse ( as he ridiculously speaketh ) of the increase of Christian believers , were no false musters , ( as he childishly scibleth ) for I discovered only and declare unto all men that increase of Christian believers in Ierusalem that the holy Word of God asserteth , Iohn the 4. where it is recorded , vers . 1. 2. That Christ made more Disciples and believers then Iohn ; and therefore added daily to the Church that was then in Jesusalem , such as should be saved ; for Christ came to save the lost sheep of the house of Israel : Now the making of more Disciples is the adding of more to the church : and this the Scripture holdeth out not only to me but to all intelligible Christians , and therefore it was no error in me to affirme the same : So that whiles I. S. laboureth to confute my Arguments , he fights indeede against the Evangelist that affirmeth that Christ made mo Disciples then Iohn . But sayeth he , here are two Paradoxes . First , that Christ made mo Disciples then Iohn . The second , that Christ should adde dayly to the Church that was then in Ierusalem . These in I. S. his opinion are paradoxes , that is matters of Ludibry in his dialect . Yet both these truthes I spake of , are cleere out of the Word of God , and therefore whiles he wounds me , he vulnerateth Saint Iohn and blasphemeth , for he giveth the Spirit of God the lye , and denyeth the Scripture that asserts that Christ made mo Disciples then John , and therefore added more unto the church : for of unbelievers and of enemies they were made Disciples , Christians and friends ; and therefore taken out of the world and brought into Christs fold and church , and by that worke of conversion they were added to it ; as he that should this day take any of our Ministers and faithfull Pastors sheep out of their folds and steale them away , ( as too too many of the Independent Ministers daily do ) and bring them into their new congregations , may not that Independent Minister , without any marvilous anticipation or mistake , or without any error , truly be said to have added so many more to his new church , when the number of his members is thus increased ? And if another Minister be joyned with him as a teacher in that congregation or succed him , if he also shall run plundering about both city and country , as a gifted brother , and bring in a great many more poore silly sheepe into his fold then the other did , as they are notable cunning theeves , may not it truly be said of him and that without any marvilous anticipation , and mistake , that he also added unto the church , when still the the number is daily increased ? I am confident that all men of sound reason will say there is no error in all this ! And therefore I hope by all the judicious I shall be free from any blame or error , in that I said those that were converted by Christ and made Disciples by his Ministry , were added to the church and to those that were formerly converted by the Baptist . But saith J. S. how could Christ make mo Disciples then Iohn ? Out of whom should he make them saith he , when Iohn had swept all along with him as the Doctor affirmeth pag. 32. Not taking it Synecdochically ? Thus he shewes his acumen or rather his vanity in contradicting the Scripture and abusing me . For he that hath ever read my booke , and looks but in the 31 page toward the lower part , shall finde these words , That Jerusalem went out to Iohn and was baptized ; it must therefore by a Synecdoche be taken for all the common people promiscuously , or for a mighty multitude of all sorts , and of all ranks of people , and of all professions , as Publicans , Souldiers and the ordinary inhabitants : These were my very words there . And therefore I. S. saying that I took not the word Synecdochically , belyeth me , befooleth himselfe and abuseth the reader , and fights with his own phancy . But for answer to his whibling Cavill , I say Christ converted those he made his Disciples and Schollers , out of the remmant or remainder of those that were yet unconverted in Ierusalem , and in that work he added more unto that church , which though the mother church , as the other were Daughter churches through all Iuda , yet it was but a particular church , in that Nationall church ; for the being a Nationall church doth not exclude as this man fondly conceits , particular churches from bearing the name of church , no more then the Catholike visible church doth deny the name of church to any particular churches , because they being similar parts do partake both of the name and nature of the whole , as all the learned and Orthodox Divines do hold . And therefore taking Ierusalem Synecdochically as I then did , it is also here to be so taken , and then Christ did make mo Disciples out of the people of Jerusalem that remained yet unconverted , then Iohn had done before him , and added them unto the church at Ierusalem , that particular mother church in that Nationall church , which as it was at that time in respect of morall worship governd by a Colledge of Elders or Presbyters as the Scripture everywhere relateth , which is called a church , so it was ever after governed by a Presbytery , all those Synagogues and severall churches being all combind together under the rule and goverment of that Presbytery , and making all but one church within its precinct , after which manner all the other city churches throught Iudea following the example of this mother church were ever to be governed to the end of the world ; and this is indeed the true chuch mould , according to the New Testament forme , that all churches ought to be cast into , if we will imitate the government of the mother church Ierusalem , and all the daughter churches both in Judea and Israel as that of Samaria and into this mould did the Baptist and Christ cast all they converted . Therefore when I said that Christ made more Disciples in Ierusalem then Iohn , and that he added them unto that Church , I speake nothing but that I have warrant for out of the good Word of God and the Scripture of truth , and which is sufficiently backt and corroborated also by all sound reason : And therefore , it is wickednesse in I. S. to say that in so speaking it is a paradox . For if it be a matter of ludibre in me and a paradox to say that Christ made more Disciples then Iohn , Then likewise it is a paradox and matter of laughter in the holy Evangelist : For he in formall words saith , That Iesus made and baptized moe Disciples then Iohn . I referre my selfe therefore unto the judgement of all honest ▪ godly minded men , whether Saint Iohn be not as well censured and traduced by this vaine and wicked fellow as my selfe , and whether in his so speaking he doth not give the Spirit of God the lye . And his second paradox is as vaine and childish and impious as this , where he saith , is not this a marvelous anticipation and mistake , to apply that which was done by the Disciples after Christs ascension unto the ministery of Christ himselfe ? For answer let I. S. take notice that in saying Christ made ●mo Disciples then the Baptist , and in making them added them unto the Church at Ierusalem , There is no marvelous anticipation or mistake , as I. S. unlearnedly inferrs ; for in giving unto Christ his due honour and affirming he added unto the Church that was then in Ierusalem , I have both the Scripture and reason for it , and in so speaking I detract nothing from the honor and dignity of the Disciples ; for it is no error in any man , to apply that unto Christ Ministery , viz. the conversion of men and the adding of them to the church , which worke , properly and primarily belongeth unto him , though in a Metaphoricall sense it may also be attributed unto the Apostles and Ministers of the Gospell . And therefore the mistake is in I. S. and not in me ; for he applyes that unto the Disciples which was done by Christ , for it is said the Lord added unto the Church dayly such as should be saved . It was done by Christ , and not the worke of the Apostles , but instrumentally ; and therefore I. S. is a prevaricator , in many respects sinning both against God and man : for here , he giveth that honour which is peculiar unto Christ , unto the Disciples ; and then he falsly accuseth me of an error and mistake when there is none , and then would make me guilty of his own sins , which I am free from , as all they that read my booke in the page quoted by him may see ; and this is not all , but in this also he is a great offender , where by this jugling craft of his , he labours to seduce the poore people . But for farther answer , I have learned of Christ himselfe , that the Disciple is not above his Master ; and therefore if I. S. will apply the worke of conversion and adding of Disciples to the Church , unto the Ministry of the Apostles after Christs ascension as he doth , I do not conceive it any paradox in me or any mistake or Anticipation to apply that worke unto Christs Ministry in his life time : for the Master is ever more to be honoured then the servant as all reason will dictate : and therefore there was no paradox in me in giving that honour unto Christ that belonged unto him who was the Master : for he came to save the lost sheepe of the house of Israel , and so he did , gathering daily some of them into his fold , and adding many more sheepe to those that Iohn the Baptist had converted : and therefore I do not think it a paradox in me to give as much honour to the Master , as I. S. doth to his Disciples and servants : for the honour of conversion and adding unto the church is a work primarily belonging to the Lord and Prince of the Church Jesus Christ . It is great rashnesse therefore ▪ and very unchristian dealing in I. S. to make mee a subject of his scorne and ludibry for well doing , and to make that a sinne and error in mee , which is a vertue ; for to give Christ his due honour is a vertue ; now the honour of converting of men , and adding them unto the Church is his proper work , and it peculiarly belongeth unto him first and last to adde unto the Church such as should bee saved : The Apostles were but the Instruments . Paul may plant , and Apollos may water , but God the Lord of his Church giveth the increase , 1 Cor. 3. Hee maketh the Church grow and multiply into mighty numbers , and adds daily unto it , by the mighty working of his Spirit , and it is marvellous in our eyes : And therefore I. S. is severely to be censured and that deservedly , not only for abusing his brethren , making them offenders when they are not , but chiefly for anticipating that honour which is onely due unto Christ and God , and giving it and attributing it unto men , as it is the daily practise of the Independents to give the glory of all victories which only belongeth unto God , to the party which they call the praying army ; and so hee ascribeth that honour that peculiarly belongeth unto God and Christ , unto the Apostles , which indeed pertaineth unto them only as they are instruments , and accuseth me as of an anticipation and mistake , saying , I ascribed that unto the Ministry of Christ himselfe , which belonged unto the Disciples of Christ after his ascension . It seemes to I. S. that I am a very erroneous man , and very unjust , that I give that honour unto Christ himself , and ascribe that work unto him , which saith I. S. belonged to the Apostles . But if this be an error , in saying that Christ added unto the Church as Ierusalem , before his death and after his death , such as should be saved , I will live and die in this error ; for this is only the worke of God ; none can come unto God but by Christ , hee is the doore , the way , the truth and the life , the author and finisher of our faith , that begins and ends the worke of conversion ; the Apostles and all other Ministers are but his instruments , hee is the hand of god , and the arme of the Lord that doth the worke in the hearts of the people . Whether therefore I. S. or my s●lfe be the most erroneous in their opinions , and speake most Paradoxes about this point , I leave it to the censure and judgement of those that have more skill in Divinity then I. S. or any of his Fra ternity . But should I grant unto I. S. that the Apostles after Christs Ascension had of themselves , and by their owne power , without any helpe from Christ added many unto the Church , which I yet never did ; doth this I pray in the opinion of any wise man exclude Christs adding unto the Church before his death ? or was it such an obstacle or hindrance to his worke of converting men , and adding them unto the Church , that because it is said of the Apostles after Christs death that the Lord by them added to the Church , therfore it is an error or mistake , to apply that unto the Ministry of Christ that was done to the Disciples ? I am confident none that are not senselesse will say there is any error in so speaking , neither is there such a gulfe betweene these two things , but that they may well meet , Christ may adde and the Apostles also : For the same reason that made Saint Luke in the second of the Acts say the Lord added unto the Church daily such as should be saved , confirmes mee in my opinion , that as it was the Lords worke after his ascension to adde men unto the Church , so it was his worke in his life time , for hee was yesterday and to day the same for ever ▪ alwayes the author and finisher of our faith , and therefore it was no anticipation or mistake in me , nor no Paradox as I. S. fondly saith , to conclude that those that were converted by Christs Ministry , were added to those that were converted by Iohn , so that there was addition upon addition , and it was no sinne in mee to say that of Christ then that was afterwards ascribed unto him in formall words ; for although the very words be not exprest , ●et that is set down that is equivalent unto them ; for it is said Christ made moe Disciples then Iohn , it was his work , so that the disputation now is not about words & terms of expression , but about the substance of things , viz. about beleevers and Members of the Church of Ierusalem , which when the Scripture holdeth out unto us , affirming that Christ made moe disciples then John , & that at Ierusalem , then any rational man may without any anticipation or mistake , or any error or Paradox conclude that these new Converts were added then unto the Church as well as those that were converted after his Ascension were said to be added to the Church ; and he that with the eye of understanding ▪ should behold what the Scripture saith , and shall but duly consider my Arguments drawne from thence will not gather , that I make false Musters , as this fresh water souldier I. S. childishly speaketh ; but on the contrary he will shrewdly suspect the ignorance , to say no worse ( that I may use some of his Rhetoricke ) of this novice in Divinity , and will also evidently gather that the Church at Ierusalem was a particular Church in that Nationall Church of the Jewes , and that in the time of our Saviour ; and withall hee will conclude from the premises , and all that I have now said by way of answer to Master Knollys , and this I. S. that there were more beleevers in Ierusalem then could all meet in any one place or a few , and that in John the Baptists and Christs dayes , and all this without any mistake or Paradox , but from very good reason , which if this Puny Divine I. S. had beene guilty of , hee would never have beene so unadvised as to have opposed the Scripture it selfe , and all solid and learned men in speaking so rashly . And now I referre all that I have hitherto said by way of reply to Master Knollys and I. S. to the judgement of the learned to consider , whether there is either honesty or reason in these men , who to maintaine their fond errors , wil deny or affirme any thing , though never so repugnant to the Scripture , and to the very light of reason , and all this only to mislead the ignorant people ; and this is all that I. S. hath to say against my Arguments drawn from the Baptisme of Iohn and Christs and his Apostles Ministry , by which I proved , that in the very dayes of John the Baptist and in Christs time there were then many more beleevers in the Church of Jerusalem then could all meet in any one Congregation . Now for the following Arguments , by which I proved it was much more impossible for them to meet together , after there were daily added so many thousands to the Church after Christs Ascension by the miracles and Ministry of the blessed Apostles , and Christs seventy Disciples , and the other Ministers of those times : I. S. doth not so much as meddle with them , but saith pag. 10. That he had thought to have bestowd as much time on the rest , but that other considerations forbad him ; and because ( as he saith ) there were those so able already ingaged in the Dispute : these are his words . And in his wise Epistle to me , he saith that his health forbade him . Now what a vaine fellow is this to vapour that he had whipped me out of the field , and beat up my quarters , and quartered my book , and taken hold of the pillars of my discourse and shaken them , and overthrowne my building , as yee may see at large in the title page , and in his Epistle to mee ? and yet in the tenth page of his Booke the place above quoted , and in the same Epistle hee confesseth , his indisposition of body and other considerations forbad him to bestow any more time upon the Booke , and saith in expresse termes he left the worke to others ; whether therefore this be not a worthlesse and witlesse Fellow to brag and glory of a victory , and beating up of a mans quarters , when hee hath only flung a squib or two at them a farre off , and then cowardly and basely ran away pretending sicknesse as fresh water souldiers commonly use to doe , I leave it to the judgement of others to consider . But of I. S. I may truly say thus much , that hee is a meere quagmire of ignorance , and wicked impudency , and farre unfit for any serious or solid imployment , much lesse to be a Captaine or Commander in Christs Armies . I doe not deny , but hee may make a prettie souldier at an Independent Festivity ; and I beleeve that were it to shake or pull downe the pillars of a March-pane , or to beat up the quarters of a Custard , to breake up a Wood-cock , or to storme a Venison Pastie , or to plunder a Banquet , that in the Militia of good cheer he would doe very well : but notwithstanding I would have I. S. being now in a course of Physick and of an infirme body , to use some moderation when hee comes where good cheer is stirring ; and therefore because hee thinkes that my judgement in such matters may be worthy of some account , for so hee intimateth in his learned Epistle ; I would advise him for a time to feed upon Snayl pyes and Mushromes , and of those kind of creatures hee may find abundance about the Wels at Tunbridge ; that low kind of diet is best for him ; & if he followes this now in the spring but some weekes , and drinks lustily of the waters there , they will wash him till hee be cleane and fit for my fingring againe , and free him from his Frensie , and make him as cleane and neat , as he saith my Postscript hee left in those waters will be . And this is the counsell I give unto I. S. gratis , for all his learned paines in beating up my quarters . And so I have done with him at this time . I have now a few things yet to answer to what Master Knollys hath to say to those Arguments I rayse from the Ministry of the Apostles , and the multitudes converted by them after Christs Ascension , which yee shall find punctually set downe in their due places . I will now therefore take a survey of the numbers that were added to the Church , and to those Beleevers that were converted by Iohns & Christs Ministry , by the powerfull preaching and miracles of the Apostles after Christs Ascension ; and from the divers places I shall gather out of the Acts of the Apostles , frame such arguments as shall make it yet more evident , that there were such multitudes in the Church of Ierusalem , as they could not all possibly meet together , at one time , or in one place or roome , or in one Congregation , to injoy all the Ordinances , and partake in all acts of worship ▪ but must necessarily be distributed into divers congregations and assemblies , if they would all be edified , and that before the persecution wee reade of in the Acts 3. 1. and in the persecution , and after the persecution . But before I come to the proofe of the particulars , I must answer to some objections made by our brethren the Independents ; the first of the which is , out of the first chapter of the Acts of the Apostles , from which they indeavour to prove , that the number and multitude of Beleevers in the Church of Jerusalem was not so great , but that they might all meet in one roome or place , and in one congregation to partake in all acts of worship . The words on which they ground their Arguments are these : and in those dayes Peter stood up in the middest of the Disciples and said , ( the number of the names together , were about an hundred and twenty ) men and brethren , &c. From whence they conclude , that the whole Church in Ierusalem , that is to say , all the Beleevers , did meet in one place ; for in this number of names they would have all the whole Church in Ierusalem included or confined ; which to moe is a wonder , that such learned men as many of them are , should so argue ; for this must be the scope of the Argument if they intend to prove , That the whole Church in Jerusalem and all the Beleevers there , were not so numerous , but that they might all meete in one place , and partake in all acts of worship , and that these in Peters Company were all that Church , and all the Believers that were in Ierusalem : this , I say , must of necessitie be their meaning , or else their Argument concludes nothing to the purpose . The invalidity of the which , I am most confident will by and by evidently appeare ( though all the former Arguments to the contrary should not so much as be thought of ) and withall , it will also be obvious to any judicious man , that in all respects their Argument makes much against themselves . For if I should grant unto them , That at this instant of time that that place speakes of the whole Church in Jerusalem , or the number then of Beleevers were no more but that one place might have contained them all for the enjoying of all Ordinances ( which I cannot doe , for innumerable reasons , and some of them above specified ) yet it doth not follow nor evince , that after there were daily such additions of Believers , and such multitudes of new Converts added unto the Church , that then also , one place or roome could containe them all ; and that they might still meet in one Congregation , and all together partake in all acts of worship . For there is a vast difference betweene one hundred and twenty names ( for there was no more in this assembly ) and in many ten thousands , which all the World knowes could not bee contained in any one place of Jerusalem to communicate in all the Ordinances , though that place had equalized the most magnificent Structure that ever the World yet saw ; especially , they could not have all met there to edification , for they could not have all heard and understood : and wee know that in the Church , all must be done to edification , and this would rather have hindred the mutuall edification of the assembly , and have brought a confusion , rather then any profit or benefit unto them . But the truth is , the number of names here spoken of , if wee will goe to the genuine interpretation of the place , not to speake of the universall consent of all the learned Interpreters , who gather that in this assembly , the seventy Disciples the Lord Jesus sent out to preach through all Judes , and all those other Ministers of the Gospel that had beene Christs , and Saint Iohn the Baptists Disciples , every one of the which was thought fit for learning and divine knowledge , to succeed Iudas in his Apostleship and to be a Disciple ; all these or most of them , or such like , were those that are included in the number of names . I say , to omit this Interpretation of all the most Orthodoxe Divines , and their universall agreement and harmony in their learned Commentaries about this portion of Scripture , the very words themselves following shew they were select and eminent men , and men of note , and Disciples of longest standing ; and all of them or the most of them Ministers and Preachers themselves ; and were indeed the Presbyters of the Church , to whom with the Apostles , the power of ruling was committed ; and who within themselves , and without the consent of the common multitude of Beleivers , had power to o●daine their own Officers , and that by their own authority as we may see , Vers . 21. 22. Wherefore , saith S. Peter , of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Iesus went in and out among us , beginning from the baptisme of Iohn , unto that same day he was taken up from us , must one be ordained to be a witnesse with us of the resurrection . And they appointed two , &c. and they prayed , &c. and they gave forth the Lots ▪ &c. all businesses here were managed and carryed in an Aristocraticall and Presbyterian way , and all was done by a joynt consent and the common councell of them all . Here wee finde none of the multitude of the people , though Beleevers ; here were no Women that gave forth their lots . Neither doth the Apostle Peter say , Men , Mothers , and Brethren ; or Men , Women , and Brethren ; or Men , Brethren , and Sisters ; but Men and Brethren . For howsoever in the foregoing Verses it is said , that these ( meaning the Apostles and Elders ) all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication , with the women , and Mary the Mother of Jesus , and with his Brethren , by which they fitted themselves for the Ministery after they should receive the Holy Ghost ; though I say , they joyned with them in those duties of humiliation and prayer , which any women may do , in the society and company of godly Ministers : yet when they went about other acts of Church government , as choosing of an Apostle , then the Apostles and Elders onely by themselves , to whom the power of the Keyes was given , ordered that businesse , and left the Women to their private devotions , and their severall imployments : for in this action of giving forth their lots , there is no mention of the Women . And it is manifest from the Text it selfe , that this choosing of Matthias was at another time , and without all doubt , upon a set day for this purpose ; for it is said Verse 15. And in those dayes Peter stood up in the middest of the Disciples , and said Men and Brethren . Here was onely Disciples , Men and Brethren , and no Sisters . Till Pope Joans time , and our dayes , Peters Keyes never hung at any womans Girdle ; and we heare not in Scripture that they had any voyce in choosing of Church ▪ officers , and admi ting of members into the Church , or casting out of any , till these unhappy times ; an usurpation not beseeming that Sex , as afterwards in its due place I hope to make appear . But this by the way . Now to the matter in hand , I say it is apparent to any that will not shut their eyes , that all those , or most of them that were in Peters company , and at that time met together , were capable of an Apostleship , and such as were the most eminent of all Christs followers , and such as were best instructed in Christian Religion , as having been bred up in the doctrine of Saint Iohn the Baptist , and under the Ministry of Christ himselfe , the Prophet of his Church ; and therefore they were the Teachers of the Church and people , who were their flock which they all fed in common : And from thence it argueth , That the multitude of Beleevers in Ierusalem was not onely a distinct company from them , but that it was exceeding great and numerous , that had so many Pastors and Teachers over them : For if they had been but so small a company as is here mentioned , and that the whole Church had consisted but of sixscore names , then the Pastors exceed the number of the flocke ; which is not onely absurd to thinke , but against the evident truth of the holy Scriptures , which relate unto us multitudes upon multitudes that were dayly converted by the ministery of John the Baptist , and of Christ and his Apostles , and added unto the Church before this their meeting . So that by this I have now said , it is most clear and evident , that all or most of these , were the most eminent Ministers of the Gospell , and the Presbytery of the Church . But in this , that our Brethren do acknowledge , That this assembly here spake of were the church , it makes as much against them , and greatly for us : for it is manifest ▪ from the Text , that they were the Ministers and Preachers of the Gospell , and in that they give them the name and title of the Church , it followeth that the representative body and Presbytery is a Church , and that to them onely belongs the power and authority of the Keyes : according to that of our Saviour in Matth. 18 ▪ 17 , 18. Tell it unto the Church , &c. and whatsoever ye binde on Earth shall be bound in Heaven ; and whatsoever ye loose on Earth shall be loosed in Heaven . By which words , all authority is put into the true Ministers hands ; so that they onely have the power and authority of ordaining Pastors and Presbyters among themselves ; as Paul sufficiently declares in his Epistles to Timothy and Titus : and that they have not onely the title of the Church , but a Charter and Warrant also granted unto them of ruling and governing the Church , and of ordaining Church ▪ officers , and that by joynt and common consent among themselves , without the helpe and assistance of the people and congregations under them , which by God were never joyned in commission with them . And howsoever Paul in the 1. of the Corinthians , chap. 6. for the taking away the scandall in going to Law before unbeleevers , gave them liberty to make choyce of somethat were least esteemed in the Church , for the deciding of their controversies ; yet that did not authorize them to make choyce of all other Church Officers ; for he limits them to go no farther then to the choyce of such as are of least esteeme . And howsoever likewise , the Apostles in the 6. of the Acts , to free themselves from all impediments , that they might the better attend upon their Ministeries , and that without interruption they might Preach the Gospell , gave them liberty to chuse their Decons and Deconesses : yet they prescribe the Rule by which they shall chuse them , and keep the authority of ordaining them still in their own hands : Looke you out among you , say they , men of honest report , full of the holy Ghost , and wisedome , whom we may appoint over this businesse , and when they had chose such , saith the Scripture , They put them before the Apostles , and when they had prayed , they laid their hands on them . So that howsoever they gave unto them a Liberty to chuse , yet it was with limitation , not an absolute liberty ; for if they had chose men that had not been of approved honesty , well gifted , and wise , and qualified as they appointed , it was arbitrary in the Apostles to reject their choyce ; for they keep the power of Ordination still in their own hands , and to them it did belong to ratifie their Election ; so that the people had not the power of Ordination then , nor have not to this day , no not of the meanest Deacon or Deaconesse , that belongs onely unto the Presbytery , much lesse have they power of ordaining Presbyters . Indeed for the deciding of controversies and differences , they have a liberty given them of making choise of some petty men amongst them ▪ and that they may do without the Presbytery ; but they have no power of Ordination . Neither did I ever yet read in the Sacred Scriptures that the people or Congregation had any hand at all in choosing of Ministers and Presbyters , neither were they fit for that imployment ; for it is one thing to judge of mans externall carriage and manners , and another thing of his sufficiency for his indowments and abilities of learning , and that men of learning and knowledge onely can do , and the Sons of the Prophets ; and it is in speciall given in charge to the Presbyters and Ministers , as it is manifest in the Epistles of Paul to Timothy and Titus , 1 Tim. 4. 14. Tit. 1. And they onely know how rightly to examine them , in the knowledge of the tongues and Sciences , and such Arts as are requisite , besides the knowledge of the holy Scripture ; all which are little enough for the making of a Minister compleat and fit for that Sacred imployment . And all the Primitive Churches in the Apostles times willingly submitted themselves to what the Presbytery then did , and assented to their choyce , as in the 14. of the Acts vers . 23. it appeareth . But I say , in that our brethren do acknowledge this company this hundred and twenty names , to be a church , and in that it is also sufficiently manifest , that they are considered in a distinct notion from the people , which also in the holy Scriptures , when they are joyned with their Ministers , are called a church ( as is frequently to be seen through the acts of the Apostles ) and in that it doth abundantly appear , by what hath formerly been spoken , and will yet in the following discourse be farther elucidated , that there were many congregations and Assemblies of beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem , and that they were all governed by the joynt consent and Common Councell of the Apostles and Presbyters , to whom the Apostles themselves were subject ; who were sent this way and that way by their direction , and to whom they were to give an account of their Ministery , as we see in divers places in the Acts , and were ordered by them , what they should do , and also made their appeals unto the Apostles and Presbyters in any businesse of common concernment : I say , in all these respects , it is evident , That the Church of Ierusalem consisted of many Congregations and Assemblies , and was yet but one Church , and that governed by a Presbyterian Government , and by a Common Councell of Ministers , to whose order all the severall Congregation were to submit themselves ; And therefore this their Argument maketh much against them and greatly for us . And this shall suffice to have answered to this their first Objection ; which , to speak the truth , is that that carrieth the most appearance of any Argument they produce to prove their Assertion and tenent : for all their other Objections raised from the severall meetings of the Apostles and people , and from the multitude comming to them about the ordaining of Deacons , by which they would perswade the world , That the company of Believers in the Church of Ierusalem was not so numerous at any time , but that they might all meete in one congregation , or in one place , to partake of in acts of worship ; they consist most of them in Homonymies , and meere Paralogismes , which indeed beseeme not the gravity of reverend men , and in the weighty matters of Divinity , would be undecent in a sucking Sophister ; and therefore are much more blameworthy in them , who by such fallacies labour to amuse the people , to the disturbance of the whole Church and Kingdome , and alienating the affections of Brethren one from another . I shall briefly runne over them . Acts 2. 46. where it is related , that the Believers and new Converts continued daily with one accord in the Temple , and breaking bread from house to house . From these words the Brethren conclude , That the multitude of Believers was not so great ▪ but that they might all meete in one congregation , and in one place , to partake in all acts of worship ; for here in expresse words , the place where they met is specified , and it is said to be the Temple . I appeale to the wisdome of any learned man , or but of a rationall Christian , whether this be a candid or ingenuous way of arguing ; That because 3000. Christians that were newly converted might meet together in the Temple of Jerusalem , Ergo , all that believed in Jerusalem that were converted by Iohn the Baptist , and all that believed by Christs ministery and miracles , and all that were converted by the Apostles , and the seventy Disciples before Christs sufferings , and all that were after his Resurrection converted for twenty years together , by the Ministry of all the Apostles , and all the other Ministers of the Gospell , they might yet all meete in any one place or Congregation , to partake in all acts of worship , and to edification . I refer this , I say , to the consideration of any Learned man , or any intelligible Christian , whether this be an ingenuous way of arguing . I believe if one should argue against them after the same manner , they would laugh at him . If one should thus dispute ; Within these seven years , all the Independents continued daily with one accord in such a place , and they all met together in one congregation : Ergo , there is but one congregation , and but one Church still of Indeperdents in London , and they all meet together in one congregation . Would not the Brethren make themselves as merry with such a way of disputing , as they have made others sad with their way of arguing ? yes doublesse . The truth is , their way of arguing is not to their owne honour , to speake but favourably of it , as will appeare . For should I grant unto them , that at that time this place of Scripture speakes of , there had beene no more Believers in Ierusalem , but those hundred and twenty names specified in the first Chapter of the Acts , and these three thousand new Converts ; and accord also unto them , that all these did meet together in on place , and in one congregation , and did partake in all the Ordinances , which notwithstanding I cannot grant them , for divers reasons : for in the same place it is said , That although they continued daily in the Temple , yet they brake bread from house to house ; that is to say , some of them did daily meet to hear the Word in the Temple , and then followed their severall imployments , and others in private , and they had the holy Communion or Sacrament in severall houses ; from which it is manifestly evident , that then when there were newly added to the Church but three thousand Believers , they had many and severall congregations and assemblies ; and without all doubt as the multitudes of Believers increased , they were still distributed into more congregations : for it is said , They brake bread from house to house ; that is , they had their assemblies and meetings in severall houses and places , besides the Temple ▪ and in those severall houses , they had not only the preaching of the Word and Prayer , but the administration of the Sacrament , and communicated in all the Ordinances ; which they could not do in the Temple , as afterward will appeare : and all that I now say is evident from the 41. Verse of the same Chapter to the 47. But I say , should I silence my own reason , and suffer it to speake nothing ; and should I grantto our Brethren , that there were but three thousand , and that these three thousand Believers might all meet in one congregation , and partake in all the ordinances to edification : would it follow , that when ten thousand were added unto them , and twenty thousand more to them , and thirty thousand more to all these ; would any may think or believe , that ten thousand men can meete in one congregation to edifie , and to partake in all the Ordinances , much lesse when there is so many thousands more added to them , that they could still meete in any one place or congregation ? I thinke no man that hath not abdicated his understanding will so conclude . So that all men may see , not onely the weaknesse of this argumentation , but the strength of truth : For this very weapon with which they had thought to have defended themselves , and wounded the Truth , they wound themselves , and overthrow their own tenent ; as God willing , I shall more fully by and by make appear . But out of Chap. 5. our Brethren conceive they have a very strong and invincible Argument : where it is related , That after Ananias and Saphira were miraculously taken away , for lying unto the Spirit of God ; It is said , That great feare came upon all the Church , and upon as many as heard these things . And by the hands of the Apostles were many signes and wonders wrought among the people , and they were all with one accord in Solomons Porch . Ergo , say , they , the number of Believers in Ierusalem , was not so great , but that they might all meet together in one congregation ; for the place where they did meet , is set downe , viz. in Solomons Porch : and it is further specified , That they were all with one accord in that place . This is their Argument faithfully and truly set downe , and with the best advantage for their cause . But to speake the truth , this kinde of arguing hath no force in it ▪ neither doth it beseem grave men , to trifle thus , in the matters of God and Religion . For should I grant unto them , that all the Beleivers that then were in Ierusalem , and had been converted by Iohn the Baptist , and by Christ , and all his Disciples , before the Passion and Sufferings of the Lord Iesus Christ ; and the three thousand converted by the first Miracle and Sermon of Peter , after they had received the gift of the Holy Ghost , and the five thousand after by the second Miracle and Sermon , and after the new additions of so many multitudes of Believers both of men and women , by reason of the miracle wrought upon Ananias and Saphira his Wife ; and the other miracles that the fifth Chapter speaketh of ; should I say , grant that all these might yet have met in one place , and in any one congregation to communicate in all the Ordinances , which all reason forbids me to yeild to ; will it follow , that when there were additions upon additions , and that of multitudes of Believers , that they might still meet in any one congregation to edification , and have communicated in all acts of worship ? For in all reason we may conceive , had we no testimony out of the holy Scripture to back it , that if eight thousand were converted besides multitudes both of Men and Women , with a few Miracles and Sermons : and if at the first Preaching of the Gospell after the Resurrection there was such a great encrease , and such a multiplication of Christians ; all understanding , I say , perswades , that in the space of twenty years , there will be innumerable multitudes added daily to the Church , when the miraculous working of wonders with the same doctrine still continued ▪ and with all , the same reason will dictate to any man , That then the whole multitude of all those Believers could not all meete together in one place , and in one congregation for edification , to communicate in all Ordinances . So that any judicious man , without the help of any great Schoole-learning , may perceive the invalidity and vanity of such argumentations . And truly were it not that they are Brethren , and that I desire in the spirit of meeknesse to deale with them , I would have made it appear , that it is so poore a way of disputing , that it did not beseeme men of gravity , much lesse of learning ; and that there were many wayes to evade the dint of such reasoning , and to prove the nothingnesse of the Argument , and that by the words of the Text : the people there spake of , to be in Solomons Porch , are to be limited and confined within the number of those that were converted by the last miracle , and some other new miracles of the Apostles , which they were then working in Solomons Porch ; for there is the place where the Apostles and they were together ; and I doe acknowledge , that as many as were then , and at that time , in Solomons Porch with the Apostles , were of one accord . But doth this with any rationall man conclude , that every Believer in Ierusalem , both Men and Women and all the Christians & Disciples in Ierusalem were then together in Solomons Porch , and in one Congregation ? I am confident that no wise man will thinke so ; for without all controversie there were then such multitudes of Believers in the Church of Ierusalem , as neither many Porches nor many Temples could have contained their bodies , much lesse could they have all met in any one congregation to edifie . But I say I will not deale with Brethren so rigidly as I might , and therefore wave many things that I might justly here utter . But grant it were so , that now in the beginning of the Christian , church and if I may so speake in the infancy of it , That all the Believers then in Ierusalem might all meet together in one place ; doth it follow that they might ever so doe in succeeding times , when there was such infinite increase of Christians daily added to the church ? all reason wil contradict that assertion . Within this seven yeares , as all men know , one place and congregation would have contained all the Independents ; but will one place now or ten containe them ? And there is no man as I conceive will deny , but that the Apostles and those Primitive Ministers , had another manner of converting faculty then our Brethen ; for the Apostles as it is well known did not build upon others foundations ; yea , they took it as a disparagement unto them ; for so Saint Paul in the 15. of the Romans v. 20. affirmeth . Now our Brethren they build upon others foundations , and gather the sheep , and them the good and the fat sheep , with good fleeces on their backs ; yea , the Velvit-sheep , and the Plush-sheepe , and the Sattin and Taffity-sheep , out of other Sheepheards folds ; and while they seeme to gather Churches , they scatter them , and the poorsheep . But I will proceed to the other Argument out of the sixth of the Acts , where it is related , That when the number of the Disciples was multiplyed ( here we may take notice of multiplication ) There arose a murmuring of the Greeks against the Hebrews , because the widdows were neglected in the daily ministration . And the Apostles called the multitude of the Disciples unto them , and gave them liberty to choose their Deacons , and it pleased the whole multitude , saith the Scripture . From thence our brethren conclude , That all the beleevers in the Church of Jerusalem came here together to the Apostles , and were then no more then could all meete in one congregation : as if our brethren should thus argue ; As the wheel-barrow goes rumble , rumble , even so is Prelaticall Episcopacy better then the Presbyterian Government . But to be serious : Should I grant unto the Brethren , That at this time , all the beleevers that were in the Church of Ierusalem , did then come together , and were all in one place , and might meet in one congregation ; doth it follow , when there was a dayly increase of more beleevers , and that of multitudes of them ( as this very chapter signifies ) that then also they might all meete together in one place or in one congregation in succeeding ages ? I suppose no man will think or believe so But I must confess , that I cannot grant unto them , that by the multitude of beleevers here spake of , is to be understood every individuall Christian , or the greatest part of them , much lesse that all the whole body of them came together , and that for warrantable reason to the contrary . For the controversie and murmuring here spoken of , was not among all the Disciples and beleevers in Ierusalem , but onely between two Nations of them , viz. between the Greeks and the Hebrews . Now we are informed out of the second of the Acts verse 5. That there were dwelling in Ierusalem Iews , devout men , out of every Nation under heaven : for so in expresse words , it is said , of the which the Greeks were but one Nation , and the Hebrews another . So that all the Christians and Beleevers of all the other Nations , were of one minde , and in good accord among themselves , as the foregoing Chapters tell , and were at peace one with another , so that there was no murmuring amongst them , nor no controversie , contention or variance , and they all continued quiet in their severall houses , and lived in love , and were none of that multitude here spoken of : so that of necessity , by the multitude in this place , we are to understand the Greeks onely and the Hebrews ; for so in expresse words it is specified : and this every rationall man can easily perceive . Againe , by multitude here is to be understood not a confused company going in a tumultuous way , but a considerable number of rationall men of each differing and dissenting party , and such as were called and sent for by the Apostles , as it is commonly seen in those that go by way of complaint to petition to any councell , they send a competent multitude of understanding and able men , to grace their cause and to mannage the businesse : and not every particular and individuall person , men and women to negotiate it , which could not be without mighty confusion , which was not in this multitude : and therefore by multitude and the whole multitude , we are to understand , that both those parties that came to negotiate this businesse , were well satisfied with the Apostles Order , and they obeyed it : but from hence if any man would infer and conclude , That every one of the beleeving Hebrews , and every individuall beleeving Greek , that was then in Ierusalem , and that all the Greek Church and all the Hebrew Church , both men and women , not one person excepted were all in one place together before the Apostles ; the whole world would judg , that this man thatshould thus argue , were very much crased in his brain : but much more would it argue a great imbecillity of wit and judgment in any one , to conclude , That all the beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem were there : And unlesse they can so conclude , the Argument is nothing to the purpose , nor of any validity to evince and prove the Assertion of our brethren . But if I should yeeld unto the brethren , these two things ▪ the first , That all the beleeving Greeks and all the beleeving Hebrews , none excepted , were all before the Apostles in one place : yet still this will follow , that all the beleevers of every severall Nation were not in this multitude and number : for they had nothing to do in the businesse , for they were no parties ; so that the Argument is nothing to the purpose , but a meer fallacy to delude unstable soules , and to make them beleeve that bladders are Lanthorns . Secondly , should I grant unto the brethren , that by multitude here , and by the whole multitude , all the beleevers then in Ierusalem , were to be understood , and that then they might all meet in one congregation : doth it therefore follow , that many years after , when there was dayly such additions of multitudes of Beleevers , that they might all still meet together in one place , and in one congregation for all acts of worship , and to be edified ? I beleeve our Brethren themselves the Independents will not grant it ; yet they must grant it if they will stand to their principles . But from this murmuring between the Greeks and the Hebrews , I , with very good reason , can frame an Argument to overthrow our Brethrens Tenent , and may from thence gather , That in the Church of Jerusalem there were many and severall Congregations , where they had all acts of worship ; and that every severall nation had their severall congregations and severall assemblies , where they might heare the Word of God in their own language and to edification , and communicate in all Ordinances with comfort . For if there should arise a controversie in London , between the Dutch and the French , about points of Religion , or about any other matter of practice concerning Religion ; and they should all apply themselves to the grave and learned Assembly for the decision of it ; would not all men gather that there were two distinct congregations of them in the City ? So it may well be concluded against our Brethren , that every severall Nation of Believers in Ierusalem , had their severall congregations and assemblies apart , ( as well as the Greeks and the Hebrewes ) where they might partake in all Ordinances to edification , and understand their Ministers Preaching to them in their owne language . As for my part , I verily beleeve it was so , and from warrantable reasons : and yet all these severall congregations made but one Church , and were under one Presbyterie : and for this my beliefe I shall give my reasons in the ensuing discourse . But had there beene but one Nation in Ierusalem , so many thousand Believers as the Scripture relates there was , could not all have met in one place , and in one congregation , as all reason will perswade . So that all the Arguments of our brethren to the contrary , are but as so many Squibs which onely make a noise , and then vanish in the ayre ; to say no more . And these are the most rationall objections that as yet I ever heard from them , to the which I have briefly given my severall answers , which I hope by Gods assistance I shall ever be able to make good against them all . And now I will goe on to prove , That by the ministry of the Apostles , and the divers miracles daily wrought by them , after they had received the gifts of the Holy Ghost , there were such additions of multitudes of Believers to those that were converted by Saint John the Baptist , and our Saviour and his Disciples , before the death of John and the sufferings of our Saviour , that they could not all meet at any one time and in one place or congregation , to partake in all Ordinances ; no , nor in a few ; but were of necessity forced to be distributed into severall assemblies and congregations , and that before the Persecution , under the Persecution , and after the Persecution . And for proving of what I lay downe , which is still but the first conclusion I undertooke to make good , I will begin with the first eight Chapters of the Acts , and then goe forward to the ensuing story of the same Booke in order , to prove my assertion . In the 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , and 6. Chapters of the Acts , it is related how the holy Apostles imployed themselves in their several Ministeries , after they had received the gifts of the holy Ghost , & were indued with all power of working miracles , and had received the gifts also of tongues and languages ; and the effects also of their Ministry , preaching , and miracles , are there set downe at large : and it is specified , that by meanes of that first miracle , when all the people of severall Nations heard the Apostles speak to them , every one in their severall tongues and languages ( who were very well knowne to bee Galileans ) that they were amazed to heare the wonderfull Works of God , and from their amazement it is said , they gave attention to the Sermon of Peter ; the Sermon it selfe being there set downe , and the effect of it , which was , That when they had heard it , they were prickt in their heart , and said unto Peter and the rest of the Apostles , Men and Brethren , what shall we do ? Then Peter said unto them , Repent and be Baptized every one of you in the name of Iesus Christ , for the remission of sins ; and yee shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost , &c. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized : and the same day were added unto them about three thousand soules . And they continued stedfast in the Apostles Doctrine and fellowship , and in breaking of bread , and prayer ; And feare came upon every soule : and many signes and wonders were done by the Apostles : and all that believed were together , and had all things common : and they continuing daily with one accord in the Temple , and breaking bread from house to house , did eat their meat with gladnesse and singlenesse of heart , praysing God , and having favour with all the people . And the Lord added to the Church daily such as should be saved . Here wee see , that by vertue of one Miracle and Sermon ( God working with them ) were added to the Believers , that Saint Iohn the Baptist , and Christ and his Disciples had converted , and such as were formerly baptized , three thousand more ; a great Miracle : all which , with the many other that were converted afterward are called but one Church . For it is expresly said , that the Lord added to the Church daily such as should be saved . We heard of the great multitudes , and of a world of such as beleeved in Christ , before this Miracle and Sermon . And can any man in reason conceive , that all these could meet in any one place or congregation , to partake in all acts of worship ? But let us goe on . In the 3. and 4. Chapter , by means of that Miracle that was wrought upon the Impotent Man , who was knowne to all the people to have bin a Cripple from his Mothers wombe , and through the powerfull preaching of Peter , who exhorted them to repent and to be converted , that their sinnes might be blotted out , when the time of refreshing should come from the presence of the Lord , &c. It is said , that many which heard the word believed ; and the number of those new Believers is there specified to be about five thousand men , which were also added unto the Church , and joyned to all the former Beleevers ; so that wee have here eight thousand new Members added unto the Church , in a very little time : and this was a greater Miracle then the former . So that the Prophesie in the 110. Psalme , verse 3. was now fulfilled ; That in the day of Christs power , his willing people from the wombe of the morning should be multiplied as the Dew upon the Earth . And which is not tobe passed by without due notice , It is supposed by the best Interpreters , and the most orthodoxe Writers , ( and there is good reason for it ) that these new Converts were Men , not Women and Children . And without doubt , these new Believers endeavoured to convert their Wives , Children , Servants , and Neighbours : and there is good reason also why wee should be induced to beleeve , that Truth , with such wonders and miracles annexed to it , should be as prevalent to convert Women , Children , Servants , and Neighbours , and whole Families ; as errours and novelties , in these our dayes , are able to misleade those poore creatures , that are ever learning , and never come to knowledge ; and the which are carried about with every wind of doctrine , and beleeve every new-borne truth ( as they terme it ) and follow every New Light , and every new-found way , though it tend to the confusion of the Church and Kingdome . It is said of that man of Sin , that Sonne of Perdition , that hee shall come after the working of Satan , with all power and signes and lying wonders , and with all deceiveablenesse and unrighteousnesse in them that perish , because they received not the love of the truth , that they might be saved , 2 Thess . 2. But to see people so deluded without Miracles , is a Miracle . So that those poore Women that are carried about with every wind of doctrine , from that truth that was taught by Christ and his Apostles , and confirmed by so many Miracles ; and those that doe and have mis-led them , have all of them a great deale to answer for . But this I speake by the way , conceiving that all those new Converts would endeavour , as the good Samaritan Woman did after her conversion , not only to bring their Wives , Children , and Families , but their Neighbours also , and whole Cities to the same faith . And I have that opinion also of all the Women and people of that Age , that they were as ready to imbrace the truth , as the Women and people of this Age and in these our times are to follow errors . But let us now see what effects the other Miracles wrought upon the people that are related in the 5. C. as of Ananias & Saphira his wife , who for tempting the Spirit of God , were both stricken downdead and gave up the Ghost ; and the other Miracles wrought by the Apostles . It is said in Vers . 11. That fear came upon all the Church , and to as many as heard these things ( & that to the rest , viz. the Scribes and Pharisees , the Maglinant party ) durst no man joyne himselfe ▪ And Believers were added unto the Lord , multitudes , both of men and women : Here come in the good Women now . And in Verse 26. it is said , that the Captaine , with the Officers , brought the Apostles without violence ( for they feared the people , least they should have stoned them . ) It will not be amisse briefly to take notice of the severall effects these Miracles wrought . Thefirst is , That great fear of offending God came on all the Church , Gods own people ; which notwithstanding of the many additions of Believers is called still but one Church . The second That none durst joyne themselves to the contrary party , the Pharisaicall malignant crew . The third , That Believers were added to the Church , and that multitudes , no small companies both of Men and Women . Here is a new increase , and that a great one . The fourth is , that the very Captain and Officers were awed and kept in feare , by reason of the multitude of Believers : so that those that feared not God were afraid of his servants . By which it may be gathered , That the party of Believers did ballance the number of the incredulous and Pharisacall party , if not by far exceed them , And therefore by all probability , must needs be an innumerable company and a mighty multitude ; and such a number as could not all meet in any one place or congregation , to partake in all the Ordinances . And to say nothing of the diversity of Tongues and Languages which were not given to the Apostles to be uselesse and of no profit ; nor to speake any thing of the divers Jewes that were then dwelling at Jerusalem , devout Men and Women , out of every Nation under Heaven ; which notwithstanding may be a sufficient argument to prove , That they all had their severall meeting places , and their severall Ministers to preach unto them in their severall Languages , that they might be edified . I say , for the present to wave all this , let us take notice what is positively set down in the last Verse of the fifth Chapter , that is , That the Apostles daily in the Temple and in every house , ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ ; That is to say , they preached both publickly and privately , and the very places where they preached are set down , as in the Temple , and in every house . So that of necessity , there must be severall congregations and assemblies of Belivers in Ierusalem , according to that in the 2. of the Acts vers . the 46. where it said , That they continued daily with one accord in the Temple , and breaking of bread from house to house , which by all Interpreters is understood the administration of the Lords Supper : and that the severall assemblies and congregations were wont usually to meet in private houses , is frequently mentiond in the holy Scriptures , as in the 16. of the Romanes verse the 5. and in the 1. of the Corinthians chap. 16. vers . 19. Col. 4. 14. and Saint Paul in the 20. of the Acts vers . 20. saith , That he kept back nothing that was profitable unto them , but taught them publikely and from house to house , so that they had their Assemblies as well private as publicke , even in the Church of Ephesus , where they did partake in all acts of worship ; and in that Church also they had many Presbyters , and yet were but one Church . But now I will passe on to the sixth chapter in the 1 , 2 , 3. and 7 , verses it is said , That in those dayes , when the number of Disciples was multiplyed , there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews , because their widdows were neglected in their dayly ministration . Then the twelve called the multitude of the Disciples unto them , and said , It is not reason that wee should leave the Word of God and serve tables . Wherefore brethren looke you out among you seven men of honest report , and full of the holy Ghost and wisdome , whom we may appoint over this businesse . But we will give our selues contiunally to prayer and to the ministery of the Word , vers . 7. And the Word of God increased , and the number of the Disciples multiplyed in Jerusalem greatly , and a great company of the Priests were obedient unto the faith . In the which words , we may take notice briefly of these observables . The first , of the cunning and policy of the Devill , who when he cannot by all his wiles and stratagems assault the Church without , then he labours to assaile it within , as here with civill discords and differences among brethren : and in other Churches in all ages even in , and from the Apostles times , by dissentions in opinions , by Sects , Schisms , Factions , and Heresies ; and by these his wiles and craft , he first bringeth in difference in opinion , and afterwards diversity of affection , and that among brethren ; and all this he doth , that in fine , he may bring ruine upon them all . And thus he began with the Church of Ierusalem , raising a controversie between the Hebrews and the Greeks , who complained That their widdows were neglected in the daily ministration ; as either that they were not made Deaconesses , as the widdows of the Hebrews were , or that there was not an equall distribution of the Almes , according to the intention of the Church , who sold their possessions and goods to that end , that they might be parted to all men , as every one should have need , Acts 2. vers . 44 , 45. chap. 4. v. 35. And this their supposition was the cause of that controversie . The second observable , is , To whom the differing and dissenting parties did apply themselves and appeal ; and that was to the Presbytery or Colleage of Apostles , not to any one of them particularly , but to the twelve ; as in that difference at Antioch , Acts 15. Paul and Barnabas and certain other of the Brethren in the Church of Antioch appealed to the Apostles and Presbyters , and in both those differences all the Churches submitted themselves to the Apostles Order , and that willingly : and this example of the Apostles , is the Rule for ordering of all controversies that all the reformed Churches set before them ; deciding all debates in Religion by the Word of God , and according to the president they have laid downe unto them , by the Apostles and Presbyters in Ierusalem . Here I say , the whole Presbytery and Colledge of the Apostles determined the businesse ; neither do we reade , that the Assemblies of the Hebrews and Greeks at Ierusalem , or the Church of Antioch , pretended their own Independent authority , though severall Congregations , or challenged a power within themselves , of choosing their own Officers , or determining of differences amongst themselves , or pleaded that they had Authority within themselves , to make their own Laws by which they would be orderd , or that they challenged any such priviledges unto themselves , but they all appealed unto the Presbytery at Ierusalem , as the supreamest Ecclesiasticall Court , and freely submitted themselves to their arbitrement , and to the Order they set down , as the story specifieth . The third observable is , the imployment in which the Apostles were all taken up , and the effect of it ; and their imployment is said to be continuing in prayer and the Ministery , and preaching of the Word ; and the effect of this their Ministery was , That the Word of God increased , and the number of the Disciples multiplyed in Jerusalem greatly , and a great company of the Priests were obedient to the faith . By all which it is most apparent , that such multitudes being dayly added to the Church , and where there was such variety of teachers , and so many Apostles , and all of them taken up in preaching ; and where there was so many different Nations , and such diversities of tongues and languages as was in the Church of Ierusalem , they could not all meet together at any one time , or in any one place to edification , and that they might all communicate in all the Ordinances , but of necessity they must be distributed into severall Congregations and Assemblies , if they would avoyde confusion ; and all that I now speak is evident by the very light of Nature and all reason ; and therefore it followeth , That there were many Assemblyes and Congregations in Jerusalem , and yet all made but one Church , and that that Church was Presbyterianly governed . But that I may make this truth more evidently yet appear , I will first out the former discourse frame severall Arguments , and then go on to the ensuing history . And out of all these six chapters I thus argue . Where there were eight thousand new converts , besides women and children , by vertue of some few miracles and Sermons , after Christs Resurrection added to the Church of Ierusalem , and the society of beleevers , besides those that were convertedby John the Baptist and Christ and his Apostles Ministery , before his suffering ; and to the which also there were afterwards great multitudes of Beleevers both of men and women , and a great company of the Priests joyned ; in so much that they kept the very Officers and Souldiers in awe , and stru●k a feare and terrour into them : there they could not all meet together in any one place or Congregation , to partake in all acts of Worship , but of necessity must be distributed into divers Assemblies and Congregations . But in the Church of Jerusalem there were eight thousand new converts , besides women and children , by virtue of some few miracles and Sermons after Christs Resurrection added to the Church and society of Beleevers , besides those that were converted by John the Baptist , and Christ and his Apostles Ministry , before his sufferings ; and to which also there were after wards great multitudes of Beleevers both of men and women , and a great company of Priests also joyned ; insomuch as they kept the very Officers and Souldiers in awe , and struck a fear and terrour into them . Ergo , They could not all meet together in any one place or Congregation , to partake in all acts of worship , but of necessity must be distributed into divers Assemblyes and Congregations if they would all be edified . For the Major it is so evident , that I cannot beleeve that any rationall man will deny it : for who yet did ever see an Assembly of above ten thousand people in any one place or Congregation , that could partake in all the Ordinances to edification ? Yea , to affirme this , is to fight against common reason and dayly experience . For the Minor , it is proved by the severall places above quoted , and therefore the conclusion doth also of necessity follow . This Argument , is so well grounded upon the Scripture of truth , and corroborated also with such solid reasons as it is a wonderfull thing , that there should bee any man now living in these dayes of light and knowledge that should be either so ignorant or erroneous as to gainsay it ; and yet learned Master Knollys in his moderate answer as he calleth it , pag. 8. and 9. replyeth and answereth to it , by denying the Minor of my Syllogisme for very slender reasons as his custome is after this manner : I will give you his owne words which are these . There is no mention ( saith he ) in any Scripture quoted by the Doctor of eight thousand new Converts besides women and children . Neither doth that Scripture produced Acts 4. 4. prove any such thing . For the Reader may consider , that the number of them there mentioned are but five thousand ; and albeit the Dr. make them up eight thousand , by saying those five thousand men were added to the Church , and joyned to the former beleevers , pag. 57. Yet there is a two-fold mistake in the Doctors addition , to wit ; first , that some of the three thousand ( may be ) were women , & how then can the Doctor say , there were eight thousand new Converts besides women ? secondly , these five thousand , are only called men and not Converts , not beleevers . For howbeit many of them hearing the word beleeved , yet it is not said , the five thousand men beleeved ; and the truth i● , the text well considered , only holds forth , that the number of men was wade up five thousand . These are Master Knollys owne expressions , and all that hee hath to say against this Argument , with his confused reasons or rather triflings . What man but of ordinary capacity , that had but cursorily read over my Arguments , would not have observed the truth so plaine and evidently laid downe in them ▪ and confirmed with such reasons , as hee would not onely have beene well satisfied therewith , but would have judged it either great blockishnesse in any and apparent ignorance to have yet doubted of it , or great temerity and contentiousnesse of spirit to have gainsayed such evident demonstration of verity ? And yet Mr. Knollys out of the sublimity of his learning , being a confident Disputant , not onely confutes mee , but repels the very Scripture it selfe , and resists the Spirit of God , which is usually with him and his Complices , and all out of the spirit of error and contention to maintaine their severall factions . So that it may be admired , that such men are not abandoned and abhorred of all people truly fearing God , especially , when they see their whole study and indeavour , is , to delude and seduce poore silly creatures . But I desire the Reader here deliberately to weigh and consider what the man saith ; hee denyeth that there is any mention in any Scripture quoted by mee , of eight thousand new Converts , besides women and children , whereas in the second Chapter of the Acts which I cited , there is mention made of three thousand added to the Church by the first Miracle and Sermon of the Disciples , and this Master Knollys himselfe doth acknowledge , pag. 8. of his Pamphlet . His words are these . To whom were added , viz. to all those that were converted before by Johns and Christs Ministry about three thousand soules , &c. Here hee confesseth there were three thousand soules added to the Church ; neither is there any mention of women amongst them ; and in the fourth Chapter hee likewise acknowledgeth , that the number mentioned there , is five thousand . His words are these . For the Reader may consider , that the number of them there mentioned , are but five thousand . Thus hee . Now all the world knowes , that three thousand and five thousand are eight thousand , and the Scriptures quoted by mee made mention of these eight thousand , what so ever M. Knollys saith to the contrary . So that no man of understanding , can doubt of the truth of what I asserted . For that which is confirmed by the testimony of the holy Scripture , were it single and by it selfe , ought by all Christians to be beleeved ; but that which hath both the holy Scripture , and learned Master Knollys his owne witnesse to confirme it , that hee cannot with any good reason deny , but that there was three thousand soules at the first Miracle and Sermon of the Apostles after Christs Ascension added to the Church , and five thousand after , both the Holy Scripture affirmeth , and Master Knollys acknowledgeth it : Ergo , there were eight thousand new Converts added unto the Church at Ierusalem : for these were distinct actions or effects of the Ministry of the Apostles , and produced at severall times , and upon severall occasions , from the Miracles and preaching of the Apostles : for otherwise they would not have been taken such notice of as such wonders , and have beene so distinctly set downe with all the severall circumstances both of time , place , and persons ; neither would there have beene such running and going , questioning and consulting about that busines , by the Magistrates and Officers , as there was , if some new and strange thing had not happend and falne out : for men doe not usually wonder at ordinary occurrences . Now when the holy Scripture relateth this new miracle in the 4. of the Acts , as an unexpected thing and suddenly hapning & as a matter of great admiration & astonishment , yea of terrour to the enemies , from the curing of the Criple , & from the preaching of Peter & Iohn , & asserteth withal , that many which heard the word , beleeved , & the number of the men was about 5. thousand , v. 4. It is apparently evident , that as this was a new act & distinct from the former : so that the conversion of these five thousand , was a new effect and distinct one from the former , and is of purpose set down by the holy Ghost by it selfe severally , to be taken notice of as a matter of more admiration than the conversion of three thousand , by how much it was a greater work of the Spirit of God , by another miracle and Sermon , to convert five thousand , then three thousand . And without all controversie , it was thus recorded with all its circumstances for this very end , that it should for ever be taken notice of , as a distinct miracle and work of wonder from the former . For the holy Ghost is very accurate in the relation of it , and very carefull that there should be no mistake in the whole businesse : for in expresse words and termes it is said , Notwithstanding all the opposition that was made by the Priests and by the Captain of the Temple , and the souldiers , to hinder the preaching of the Word , and to smother this miracle , yet many of them that heard the word ( saith the Scripture ) beleeved . And that there might yet be no mistake or fallacy in the story and narration , the very sum and accompt of those that were converted and beleeved by reason of this last miracle and Sermon , is specified , particularized , and set down in these words , and the number of the men , ( viz. that beleeved , saith the Scripture ) was about five thousand . So that the Scripture it selfe sets down the number and calleth them men , and not women and children . And it is very safe alwayes to speak as the word of God teacheth us . So that to any intelligible Christian , there can be no doubt or scruple any longer left about this point . For that which God himselfe hath dictated by his holy spirit and recorded in his holy word , we may not gainsay ; but God hath dictated by his holy spirit and recorded it in his holy word that the multitude that was converted and believed upon that new miracle and preaching of Peter & Iohn was about five thousand men ; Ergo , it is not to be gainsaid but to be beleeved and received as an everlasting truth by all Christians . For as I said before , this was a new effect or a new act and distinct and different from the former ; and therefore these five thousand are to be considered by themselves and apart . Now five thousand and three thousand put and joyned together make up eight thousand , which were all added to the Church , to all the former that were converted by the Ministery of Iohn the Baptist , Christ and his Disciples in Christs life time ; and therefore there is no mistake in my addition as Mr. Knollys fondly and childishly concludes : and his reasons by which he would prove my mistake , are as vaine and senselesse . For ( saith he ) some of the three thousand ( may be ) were women , and how can the Doctor say there were eight thousand new converts besides women ? Take notice I pray of the vanity of his expression ; Some of the three thousand ( saith he ) may be were women : and it may be they were not , and it standeth with as good reason they were not , as any he can bring to prove they were , although I did not set it down as my own opinion , but said onely , That it was the judgement of many learned men , that all those eight thousand that were converted by those two miracles and Sermons were men , and not women and children : and therefore Mr Knollys here commits a double errour : first , in making that my opinion and ascribing that to me which I onely then related as the judgement of others , and then left it in medio ; that is his first error ; his second is worse : for whereas the Holy Scripture saith , that there were three thousand soules added unto the Church by the first Miracle and Sermon , and five thousand by the second , in the fourth of the Acts , Master Knollys peremptorily affirmeth they were but five thousand in all , & so gives the Spirit of God the lye ; who declares there were three thousand at one time , & five at another added to the Church . But if there were but 5. thousand in all , as M. Knollys asserteth , then by his own acknowledgement they were all men and not women ; and so then I had committed no error , neither can M. Knollys convince me of an error if I had said it as my own opinion that al those that were converted by those two Miracles , had been all men , and not women and children : For , for the five thousand , the word of God saith they were all men and not women , the words are these in the Originall , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : the number of men ( according to Master Knollys his owne interpretation ) was five thousand ; and if there were five thousand men , then not women . And wee find in the Holy Scripture that the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , is alwayes taken for men , as we may see it , Matth. 15. verse 38. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and they that did eat were foure thousandmen , besides women and children . So that amongst these five thousand by the testimony of the holy Scripture , and in the judgement of Master Knollys & by his owne interpretation they were all men and no women ; now then if all the whole number of Beleevers that were converted by those two Miracles and Sermons mounted in all but to five thousand , as Master Knollys affirmeth they did not , and were all men as hee accordeth , to what purpose then doth hee rayse a new and needlesse cavill against mee , because I said that it was the opinion of many learned men that those that were converted by these two miracles and sermons were all men and not women and children : For I did not as I said before , relate it as my owne judgement , neither did I say there were no women amongst those eight thousand , but that it was the opinion of the learned , that they were all men only , and not women and children . But were I of as contentious a spirit as Master Knollys , and that it tended to edification , I could bring better reasons to prove they were men only and not women , then either he or any of his Fraternity can produce to the contrary . But Mr. Knollys himself seemeth but faintly to assert that there were any of them Women and Children : for he saith , it may be some of the 3. thousand were women , & thus he trifles in his answer to my first Argument , saying , it may be there were no more Beleevers in Ierusalem at the Feast of Pentecost but the hundred and twenty names . Now all the learned know , that to say , it may bee there were some women , makes no reall conviction of a mistake , it is but a naked and groundlesse supposition of a mistake , especially when there may be many solid reasons produced to prove they were all men and no women and children . And therefore such kind of triflings are not sufferable in any that pretend to fear God : for vain janglings and needlesse contentions about words , is that that is condemned by the Apostle in all Ministers , in his Epistles to Timothy and Titus , and it troubles me not a little , that I have to do with such vaine kind of creatures , whose cheese bable is about words . But notwithstanding I see a providence in it : for in this , the man shewes but his ignorance , and whiles he would perswade the Reader , that he is very acute he shewes himselfe to be a very child in the art of disputation . There is an old saying , give some men rope enough and they will hang themselves . Even so it is here with Master Knollys whiles he takes that liberty to himself to run out in his discourse he intangles himself on every side as by the sequell will appeare , as here . He sayd that there was no mention in any Scripture quoted by me of eight thousand , and he denyed withall that the Scripture doth prove any such thing : and asserted moreover that the whole number of all those converts amouted but to five thousand , and he said that all these were men and not women , and yet here he confutes himself ; I desire all therfore to take notice of the vanity of the man. He had confidently concluded there were but five thousand in all , and asserted that they were all men , and notwithstanding as it were in the same breath , he makes mention of three thousand more of another company amongst the which he sayth some of them might be women : So that by his own concession , here is two distinct numbers or companies , one consisting of 5. thousand and all men and no women , and another consisting of three thousand more , of which he makes a scruple saying that amongst them there might be some women : So that if the five thousand were all men , and there was yet another company of three thousand more besides , amongst which there might be some women , as Master Knollys saith , then this three thousand was a distinct company from the former : now three thousand amongst the which there might be some women , and five thousand all men , makes up full eight thousand , so that Master Knollys by his whibling againe and againe Volens nolens confirmes my assertion that the full number of those converts by these two miracles & Sermons was eight thousand , and for ought any thing can be said to the contrary , they were all men besides women and children ; and this is all he gaines by his fond caviling and contention to prove himselfe a very jangler , and one like that wicked servant , that condemns himself by his own mouth . And this shall suffice to have spake for proofe of the number viz : that there were eight thousand besides women and children . And now I come to his second reason , by which he labours to evince and prove they were not converts & beleevers , which I hope to make appeare to be not only groundlesse , but to be most impious and wicked , as giving the Spirit of God the lye and indeede destructive to their own tenents and principles . His words are these . These five thousand ( saith he ) are onely called men , and not converts , not believers ; for howbeit , many of them hearing the word believed , yet it is not said the five thousand men beleeved . And the truth is , the text well considered , only holds forth that the number of men was made up five thousand . Thus Master Knollys . For my owne particular , I stand astonished at the vanity , senslesnes and wickednesse of the man ; for his words are not only against the light of reason and the judgement of all the learned , and the very opinion of the Independents themselves , who hold that they were all converts and beleeves , but they are contradictory to the Spirit of God , giving the holy Ghost the lye as I said before ; for the Scripture saith notwithstanding all the resistance and opposition made by the enemies of the Gospell to hinder the work of the Ministry : and notwithstanding all the persecution that was raysed against them for this very end , I say notwithstanding all their indeavour , the holy Ghhst saith , that many of them which heard the word believed , and the number of men was five thousand . Here are two truths evidently laid downe contrary to Master Knollys his errors . The first is , that they are not only called men , but beleevers : for saith the Scripture , they that heard the word believed . Secondly , the number of those that believed , is there in terminis set downe to be five thousand , and the number of the men ( viz. that believed ) saith the text was five thousand ▪ So that from this testimony of Scripture and from all my arguments deduced from thence , these two conclusions do follow evidently . The first , that Master Knollys is a very wicked man , that thus at pleasure can give the Spirit of God the lye and oppose the truth it selfe upon all occasions . The second , that there were more believers in the Church of Ierusalem , then could possibly all meete in any one place and congregation to partake in all acts of worship , and that in its very infancy ; for here we read of eight thousand more cnoverts besids women and children ; for the Scripture maketh mention of no women nor children newly added to all those that were converted by Iohn the Baptist , and by the ministry of Christ and his Disciples in Christs life time , and all they were innumerable : for all Jerusalem went out unto them and were baptised , besides the many other thousands that the Scripture recordeth were daily added to these , all which I say could not possibly meete in one congregation to edification . And the truth of these conclusions I am most assured , will appeare so cleare in the judgement of all the learned as they wil gather that Mr. Knollys & his complices that thus sottishly oppose it , ought severely to be punished for these their wicked practices who for the upholding of their own errors and for their base lucre and gain & for worldly ends care not what they say or do to the disturbance of church & State , for the seducing of the poor people and hindring of the work of reformation so much to be desired . But before I passe on to Master Knoylls his other Cavills , I shall desire the reader a little to consider what I have yet in this place to say to him . These five thousand ( saith he ) are called men , and not converts , not believers ; for howbeit many of them hearing the Word believed , yet it is not said the five thousand men believed . And the truth is , the text well considered , only holds forth that the number of men was made up 5. thousand . From hence I gather if these words of his may be credited , that it may be a very well formed Church after the new testament forme , ( for this Church at Ierusalem was such an one by the confession of all the Independents ) although they be not all visible Saints , but many of them unbeleevers , Iewes and Infidels , and be not true converts ; and that for the moulding up of a true Church after the new testament forme , it is not absolutely necessary that they should be all visible Saints ; for here Master Knollys says they were mixt good and bad together , it is not said saith he the five thousand men believed and yet they were all members : so that by his doctrine some of them were unbelievers , and notwithstanding they were all moulded up into a Church body : so that they were not all visible Saints , and yet the true Saints and believers made no separation from the other : but they all continued together in Church fellowship both Saints and infidels and communicated in all Ordinances . Now whether or no Master Knollys by this doctrine of his doth not fight against the opinion of all his brethren , and utterly overthrow all the new fabricke of Independency , I leave it not onely to the judgement of the learned of the congregationall way ( if there be any such ) but to the censure of the seven new churches of which he is one of the pastours , and an other Saint Diotrephes , who if they do not punish him for this his Grollery , I will say they deserve censure and punishment themselves . But this is not all I have here to say to Mr Knollys ; I have this also to adde , that if any credit may be given to his words , there will then be no certainty in any thing the Scripture relateth unto us . For he saith , That those five thousand that were added to the Church are called men , and not Converts and Beleevers ; and howbeit many of them believed , yet it is not said the five thousand believed . So that if he may be credited , all that the holy Scripture hath related unto us concerning the conversion of these men is a meere fable : for the Scripture saith they believed , and he affirmeth the contrary , and sayth they were only called men and not converts not believers . Whether this fellow therefore ought not to be cast out of the seven Churches , and out of all the Churches of the world for this his wickednesse and temerity , I leave it to the judgement of all the learned , either dependents or independents . and so I will passe to his other good stuffe which in its due place you shall meete with . But in the meane time out of all the above quoted places of Scripture , I thus farther argue . Where there was almost an hundred preachers and Ministers , besides the twelve Apostles , and all these continually taken up in prayer and preaching , and could not leave their Ministry to serve tables : and where there was such a company of believers and people as did imploy them all ; there of necessity they must be distributed into dive●se congregations and assemblies , if they would all be edified and avoyd confusion , and partake in all ordinances . But in the Church of Jerusalem there was almost an hundred preachers and Ministers , besides the twelve Apostles ; and all these were continually taken up in prayer and preaching and could not leave their ministry to serve tables : and where there was such a company of believers and people as did employ them all , there of necessity they must be distributed into diverse congregations and assemblies , if they would all be edified , and avoyd confusion and partake in all Ordinances . For the major , very reason and the common light of understanding , without any reluctation will assent unto it . And for the Minor , it is manifest from Chapter the 1. ver . 21. 22. and from chapter the sixt ver . the 2 and 4. and chapter the 8. ver . 1. So that the conclusion is undenyable . But out of all the former places I thus farther argue . Where there were people of al nations under the heavens , and them in some multitudes , and most of them believers and devout men and women which waited upon the Ordinances and had a desire daily to heare the Word ; there of necessity they must be distributed into divers and sundry congregations and assemblies , and have such to preach unto them severally in their owne language ; or else they could not partake in all acts of worship to edification . But in the Church of Jerusalem there were people of all Nations under the Heavens , and them in some multitudes , and most of them Believers and devout Men and Women , that waited upon the Ordinances , and had a desire dayly to heare the Word . Ergo , of necessity they must be distributed into divers congregations and assemblies , and have such to preach unto them severally in their owne language , or else they could not partake in all acts of worship to edification . For the Major , no reason can gainsay it , for the Apostles and the other Ministers imployed all those gifts of the Holy Ghost , and those divers languages which they had received for the edification of the Church , to the utmost , and did improve all opportunities for the converting of the people committed unto their charge , and for the further building of them up in their holy faith , which was their calling and imployment : and this they could not have done , unlesse they taught those Nations in their severall Languages ; and that they could not do without confusion , unlesse they were distributed in severall assemblies , where they might distinctly heare their own Languages . For otherwise , as Saint Paul saith in the 1 Cor. 14. 23. if men should speak to the people with unknown tongues , if the unlearned , saith he , come in and unbelievers , will they not say that they are all mad ? And therefore Tongues are given for a signe , not to them that believe , but to them that believe not . Now they were devout Men in Ierusalem and Believers ; and therefore the Apostles and Ministers were to speake to them severally in their own languages : and for that purpose God gave them those Tongues , and that diversity of languages , that those that were Believers might be more edified , and that the unbelievers and unlearned , & such as belonged unto Gods election , might be convinced and judged of all ; and that the secrets of their hearts might be manifested , that so falling down upon their face they might worship God , and report that God was in them of a truth , as the Apostle there saith . So that I say for the Major , no reasonable creature will call it in question . And for the Major , it is manifest out of the Chap. 2. Vers . 5. &c. and in Chap. 6. Vers . 1. and Vers . 2. 4. And for the conclusion , that from the Premises doth also ensue . Againe , I thus further argue out of the former Chapters . That which the holy Scripture in expresse words and in diverse places hath declared unto us that every Christian is bound to believe : but the Scripture in expresse words and in diverse places hath declared unto us , that there were diverse assemblies and congregations of Believers in the Church of Jerusalem , and that the Apostles and all the Believers in Jerusalem , did continue daily with one accord in the Temple ; and that they brake bread from house to house , and that daily in the Temple , and in every house , they ceased not to teach and preach Iesus Christ . Ergo , there was diverse congregations and severall assemblies of Believers in the Church of Jerusalem , where they did daily partake in all the Ordinances , and enjoyed all acts of worship . For the Major , no Christian can deny it . For the Minor , it is manifest from 46 Verse of the 2 Chapter , and Chap. 5. vers . 12. and vers . 42. and Chap. 3. vers . 12 , 13. and many more places that might be produced . And in those places it is not onely said they preached in every house , but that they brake bread from house to house ; by which expression all Writers interpret , the holy Communion , and partaking of the Lords Supper : and if it should not so be understood , we never can reade that any Christians in Ierusalem besides the Apostles , ever enjoyed all acts of worship , especially those that are peculiar to Church Communion . It is related often that they preached the Word daily in the Temple , which was common to Iewes and Christians ( though no Jewish worship ) as all men acknowledge . And by evident Arguments it may be proved , that they never administred the Sacraments in the Temple , those discriminating and distinguishing Ordinances of the Christian Church ; as all the most Orthodox Interpreters gather from the ensuing words , where it is said , They continued daily with one accord in the Temple ; but when they speake of the Administration of the Lords Supper , it is expressed in these words , and breaking of bread from house to house , which is interpreted by all Divines , of Sacramentall bread ; which phrase and manner of speaking is usually so expounded by all the Learned , upon Acts the 20. vers . the 7. And our Brethren do not deny this . And it is well known , that the Primitive Christians had their meetings and assemblies in private houses , as by the many places is manifest , which I cited but a little before . Besides , the Sacrament of breaking bread is no Temple-ordinance ; and therefore could not be adminis●●ed in the Temple with the safety of the Christians and Believers : for if they were so highly displeased with the Apostles , for preaching Iesus and the Resurrection , in the Temple , as it appeareth Acts 4. 2. They would not have suffered them to have administred the Sacraments there . And if Paul was so assaulted , Acts 21. 28. for being but supposed to have brought Greeks into the Temple , what would these men have done , if one should have brought in a new Ordinance , and a new worship and service ; and that so contrary to their legall rights ? Surely the Iewes would never have suffered it , neither do the Brethren contend for this . Now it is well known that in the Primitive Church , if not every day , yet every first day of the Week at least , they met together to break bread ; that is to receive the holy Sacrament , which was never without preaching , as we see in Acts 20. 7. and in the places above quoted : in which it is said , they dayly brake bread together , and that in severall and particular houses ; and that of necessity must be ; for a few houses could not have held so many thousands , as all reason will dictate : and if they were or could be contained under one roof , yet they must be forced to be in diverse and severall chambers or roomes . So that what is done and spoke in the one , the other knowes nothing of it , so that they are still severall congregations : as under the roofe of Pauls there are diverse meeting ▪ places where Men may partake in all Ordinances , and they are called severall Churches ; and they that meet there several congregations , though under one roof : for the distinction of the places under one covert , makes alwayes a distinct assembly , as it is dayly seen in the severall Committees at Westminster ; where every Committee of both Houses have their severall roomes and equall authority , and are yet all but one Parliament , though distributed into so many severall assemblyes . So here , they had severall assemblies , and that in severall houses , as is declared : and reason it selfe , without any testimony of holy Scripture , will perswade this : for the Apostles they all preached , and that dayly ; and they must have severall roomes to preach in , to avoyde confusion : for all things in the Church must be done in order , and they must have severall auditories or assemblies , or else they should preach to the walls : so that if the Apostles would all preach ; and the people all heare , of necessity they must be distributed into severall congregations and assemblyes , to avoyde disorder ; and that there were severall congregations and severall assemblies , the places above specified do declare and tell us . So that there is no man that resolves not to oppose all truth that is contrary to his received opinion , but may evidently perceive that there were many congregations and assemblies in the Church of Ierusalem , and yet they all made but one Church , and were govern'd by one Presbytery ; as the many Committees in both Houses are in divers roomes , and make divers assemblies , and have equall power and authority among themselves ; and yet they all make but one Parliament ; and all those severall Committees are govern'd by the joynt consent of the Great Civill Presbytery of the Kingdome , which is all the Parliament , and all this without confusion , yea , with most excellent order and decency . This is the last argument I produced out of the above cited Scriptures to prove that there were many assemblies of beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem before the persecution : And concerning this argument Mr Knollys before he comes to answer it , makes a little sucking preamble . His words are these . But the Doctor ( saith he ) hath one argument which is more to the purpose then all the other , which I desire the reader seriously to consider : page 64. Thus he . His Answer to this Argument is as followeth , I will set down all his own words , which are these . Now I desire the Reader to consider how the Doctor proves his Minor , which he saith it manifest from Acts 2. 46. and chapter the 5. 12. 42. and chapter 3. 11. 12. and many more places that might be produoed . page 64 , 65 , 66. In all which discourse , the Doctor gives you nothing but his own suppositions and conclusions , for the proofe of his Minor proposition , which is his manner of discoursing through his booke . This Argument ( saith he ) I answer ; First by denying the assumption or Minor proposition , and the reason of my denying it is , because the Scriptures produced by the Doctor , do not in expresse words declare , that there were divers assemblies and congregations of beleevers in the Church of Jerusalem . The Scriptures quoted do in expresse words declare the contrary to what the Doctor would prove . For Acts the 2. verse 42. 46. All that beleeved were together , and they continued with one accord in the Temple . And Acts the 3. 11 , 12. it is expresly said , that all the people can together to them , in the Porch which is called Solomons . Acts the 5. 12. And they were all with one accord in Solomons Porch . So that these Scriptures produced by the Doctor to prove that there were divers assemblyes and congregations of beleevers in the Church of Jerusalem , who met together in severall places at one and the same time , upon the first day of the weeke where they did partake in all Ordinances , do expresly prove the contrary , to wit , that the Apostles ▪ and all the Beleevers in the Church of Jerusalem met together with one accord in one place , to wit in the Temple and in Solomons Porch , and brake bread from house to house , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 domatim , not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 per singulas domos , and thus they did 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 quotidie day by day , and they continued stedfast the Apostles doctrine , and fellowship , and in breaking of bread and in prayers , and all that beleeved ●●re together : Acts the 2. v. 42 , 44 , 46. Yea the Doctor himselfe saith in his Minor proposition , the latter part of it , That the Apostles and all the Beleevers in Jerusalem did continue dayly with one accord in the Temple , and that they brake from house to house ; and this shall suffice for refutation of what the Doctor hath written touching the first proposition . Thus profound Mr Knollys confutes my arguments . I have set down all his words at large : And as he earnestly desired the Reader seriously to consider my Argument ; So I in like manner intreat him that he would but looke back upon it and advisedly weight whether there be nothing either in that or any other of my arguments and in all my discourse , but my own suppositions and conclusions for proofe of what I say , as he affirmeth , and whether I have not both Scripture and reason for what I say through my whole book ; and if he shall upon mature examination perceive that I have good authority for what I say , then let him judg whether or no M. Knollys & all his complices that thus upon all occasions traduce me , bee not a generation of the accusers of the brethren , and whether both Mr Knollys and all his confederats be not a company of calumniators & raylors , and Lyers rather then Saints . For I bless God I have both Scripture and sound reason for all that I say , and I speak it here in the presence of the great GOD , that if I had ever seen the least ground of truth , in all the Scripture of truth , for what they of the congregationall way hold about their Church , I would rather have suffered any misery in the world then ever have opened my mouth against their way , much lesse have written against it ; but finding it not only a novell Opinion , but hereticall & indeed the very sourse of all heresies and errors , and of dangerous consequence , and such an one that if it be not speedily looked unto , will not onely bring down the plagues and judgements of God upon the Nation , and overthrow all the Christian Religion and all power of godlynesse , but all government in Church and State through City and Country and bring a miserable desolation and utter ruine upon the 3 Kingdoms , which God of his infinite mercy and goodnesse prevent . And the consideration of all these things , in the presence of God I say it again , and no other , put me upon this imployment to oppose the error of the wayes of all the Independents and Sectaries , and in this course I am now in , by the grace of God and his blessed assistance I will persevere in with all my endeavours to the last period of my dayes . And now I come to reply to what Mr Knollys hath here set down by way of answer , and although I have formerly given an answer to all the fond cavills of the Independents concerning their severall meetings together in the Temple and in Solomons Porch , which the Reader I am confident will say is satisfactory enough to any that know what reason is , yet here again for Master Knollys farther satisfaction , if he will with any thing be satisfied , I answer as followeth to what he childishly bables against this Argument of mine . This argument of the Doctors ( saith he ) I answer first by denying the Assumption , &c. One would have expected that when Master Knollys began with this word first , which amongst learned and rationall men in disputing , it being a word of relation , hath ever reference to some second answer at lest if not a third and fourth ; that he had had some second and third reserve of reasons at least to have fallen upon my argument with , this I say all wise men would have imagined . And yet there followes neither a second , third or fourth answer . But howsoever he may speak nonsense by his calling , and by vertue of his Independency , I will take no advantage against him for that : I will examine onely the futility of his denyall which he calls a reason , which indeede is a meer contradiction not only of himselfe , but of the holy Scripture and is a giving of the spirit of God the lye as at other times , as will forth with appear , For whereas he saith that the Scriptures produced by me do not in expresse words declare , that there were divers Assemblies and Congregations of Beleevers in the Church of Jerusalem ; and that the Scriptures quoted do in expresse termes declare the contrary , it is most abominably false , and that by his own confession , as we shall by and by see . For should I grant unto Master Knollys which I cannot do for many reasons set down in my foregoing Discourse , That when there were but three thousand converted and added to the Church , that they might then all meet together in any one place or congregation to partake in all Ordinances , and that when there were five thousand more added to them , they might still likewise all meet together , either in the Temple or in Solomons Porch to hear the Word : I say should I to gratifie Master Knollys grant him all this ; yet it will not follow , that when there were dayly new additions upon additions of other Converts and Beleevers , and that of many thousands , that then they could still doe the same . But I cannot grant all this , for it would be against all reason , and contrary to daily experience , which tels us , that eight thousand men cannot meet in any one Congregation to partake in all acts of worship to edification . Yea , if I should grant this to Master Knollys , both hee himselfe and all his Fraternity would laugh at mee , & all learned men would conclude that I were indeed a mad man , as my brother Burton speakes of mee ; for it is most certaine , that all the Beleevers and Converts in the Church of Ierusalem did never all together partake in all Ordinances , and in all acts of worship , either in the Temple , or in Solomons porch : for wee never reade that they either baptized or brake bread in either of them : neither would the Magistrate have ever indured , or suffered it , and yet both these were the discriminating , and sealing Ordinances , by which all Christians were distinguished from Jewes and Gentiles , and all Vnbeleevers , and it is well knowne that there was no room in any private house that could containe such a multitude to partake in all Ordinances to edification ( and this my brother Burton accordeth to , saying in expresse words , that there was no roome or place large enough ( to containe them all ) and the very Scripture also is cleare in this point in many places . Yea , Master Knollys assenteth to this , though hee takes no notice of what hee sayes at any time . But because hee perhaps will beleeve himself rather then me , and because also his Followers and Schollers will give credit to his words , rather then to any reasons produced by mee , let them I pray heare what hee saith . The Apostles and all the Beleevers in the Church of Jerusalem ( saith hee ) met together , with one accord , in one place , to wit the Temple , and in Solomons Porch , and brake bread from house to house 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Domatim , not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 per singulas domos , and thus they did 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 quotidie , day by day , and they continued stedfastly in the Apostles doctrine , and fellowship , and in breaking of bread , and in prayer , &c. These are Master Knollys his owne words . From the which all learned men may easily perceive the force of truth , and the weaknesse and feeblenesse of errour : for whiles the man labours , to enervate my Argument , he contradicteth himselfe , and the holy Scriptures , and overthrowes his owne Principles , and confirmes my opinion ; for by his owne words it is evident there were many Congregations and Assemblies of Beleevers in Ierusalem which hee stifly denyed . For ( saith hee ) The Apostles and all the Beleevers in the Church of Jerusalem met together with one accord in one place , to wit , the Temple , and in Solomons Porch , and brake bread from house to house . I desire the Reader to take notice of his expression , and see if there be not only a flat contradiction of himselfe , but a full confirmation of what my Argument proveth , viz. that there were many Congregations of Beleevers in the Church at Jerusalem , which hee peremptorily denyed . For saith hee , they met together day by day in the Temple , that is one place , and in Solomons Porch , that is an other place , and they brake bread from house to house , that is in innumerable places more ; so that for one place we have many assigned by him ; for they communicated in all those houses , in all acts of worship ; for they never brake bread or baptized but they had the word also preached ; for the Word and Sacraments were to goe together , so that where the one was , there was the other , and they neither baptized nor brake bread in the Temple ; and a few houses could not containe such a multitude of people : and therefore sayes Master Knollys , they brake bread from house to house , and that daily , or day by day ; now wee know that they in those dayes brake bread alwayes in the evening , so that about one and the same time there was every day , or at least every first day of the weeke innumerable Congregations and severall Assemblies , and that at one time in every house at Ierusalem ; and all this I learne from Master Knollys , which saith , that they brake bread daily from house to house , that is they had severall Congregations in severall houses : Ergo , if Master Knollys be worthy of credit , or if any beliefe may be given to his words , there were many if not innumerable Congregations of Beleevers every day in Ierusalem , and so hee confirmes my first Proposition which hee hath taken so much paines to confute , and declares unto the whole world that hee is a man void of all reason and honesty ; and truly if such a worthlesse Fellow had his due deserts for his seducing of the poore people , hee ought severely to be dealt with ; and this might suffice to have answered to Master Knollys , but there yet remaines one whibling cavill made by him to be answered unto , who learnedly distinguisheth betweene 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is betweene house and house , and houses by houses , and would perswade the world that there were some great Mysterie , or at least some vast difference , betweene 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 house by house , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 houses by houses ; vvhereas indeed if vvee consult vvith the Originall and with all Interpreters and translations , wee shall find that they are all one , and that they translate the word in the singular number after the same manner , and with the same expressions , or with words equivalent unto them that they do the plurall , making no difference betweene them ; and although I never doubted , but that the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 house by house , or in every house , was the same that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , houses by houses , or in all houses ; for so they may be translated if wee stand rigidly upon the word , though the sense and meaning be the same as we shall see by & by : but I say though I never made any scruple about the translation since I had acquaintance with the original , yet for farther satisfaction I have consulted with all the Interpretations and translations , both in the Latin , French , Italian , Spanish , Dutch , English that I could meet with , and I find them all agreeing in this , that they translate 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the singular , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the plurall after one and the same manner , and with the same expressions , and in the same words many times , or in language intimating as much , as they that render and translate the plurall 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 per domos , translate the singular likewise 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ●ira domos , rendering the word both in the singular and the plurall , alwayes in the number of multitude : and they that translate 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the singular domatim translate the plural 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 domatim likewise , as they that will consult with all the Latine Translations upon the second of the Acts , and the 46. verse , and the 5. of the Acts , and the 42. verse , where the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is used in the singular number may see ; Again if they will turne but to the 20. Chapter of the Acts , and the 20. verse , there they shall find 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the plurall translated after the same manner the singular is by all the Latine Interpreters , that is as they did render and translate the word in the singular , so they translate it in the plurall , making no difference in their significations but taking them as all one : and so in our English translation , Acts the 2. v. 46. there they translate 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 from house to house , and in the 5. Chapter , verse the 42. they render 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the singular in every house , and in the twentieth of the Acts , and the twentieth verse , where the word is in the plurall 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they render it there from house to house , as they did in the singular , never making any difference between the singular and the plurall ; and so the Italian renders the singular number 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the fift of the Acts , vers . 4● . per le case , and in the 20. of the Acts , v. 20. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the plural , he translates it likewise per le case , making no difference between the singular & the plurall as the Holy Ghost doth not , and the same I might shew out of all the Interpretations . Now it is well knowne that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in Greeke when it is joyned with the accusative case , it often , if not ever signifies in or through , and being joyned with a word of the singular number , it signifies as much as if it were joyned with the plurall , as wee may see it in the 8. of Luke , vers . the 1. where 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is rendred through every Citie . Hee went ( saith the Interpretation ) through every Citie preaching , or hee preached in every Citie , or in all Cities , or through all Cities ; and so in the 1. of Titus , where Saint Paul saith , that hee left Titus in Crete that hee should ordaine Elders , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is translated in English in every Citie , and by Master Knollys himselfe oppidatim Citie by Citie , which is as much as in every Citie , or in all Cities , or through all the Cities of Crete , and in the fourteenth of the Acts , verse 23. it is said when they had ordained them Elders , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Master Knollys himselfe translates the singular there per singulas Ecclesias , in every Church , that is to say in all or through all Churches ; these are his own words , as you may see it in the third page of his wise Pamphlet . So that when it makes for his turne hee can make no difference betweene the singular and the plurall ; yea hee translates 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 domatim , that is house by house , which is as much as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as houses by houses , and per singulas domas , for hee that saith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 man by man , sayes as much as men by men ; and therefore hee playes the Iugler , and cheate thus to cloud , the light , that he may put off his base wares the better , and to darken the truth with his trifling about words , & al this to shew to the people that hee hath some skill in the Greeke and Latine , because hee can write the words out of the Text , which every Schoole boy can doe . But I pray see how the poore creature troubles himselfe in beating the ayre ; hee saith it is in the Originall 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 domatim , they brake bread from house to house , but it is not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 per singulas domos , that is to say they did not breake bread in all houses , or through all the houses ; Ergo , there were not many Congregations in Ierusalem , which is a meere wickednesse in him to trifle thus : for hee himselfe a little before translates 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 per singulat Ecclesias , and here hee would make a great difference betweene the singular and the plurall : when notwithstanding in the Originall there is none : for in the twentieth of the Acts , v. 20. there the Holy Ghost saith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the plurall , which is all one with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , but if Master Knollis Interpretation be good , that when the word is used in the plurall , it signifies many Congregations and Assemblies , then in the Church of Ephesus by his owne confession there were many Congregations , and yet they all made but one Church within that Precinct ; and doubtlesse so it was in Ierusalem , there were many Congregations there , and yet they all made but one Church : and the truth is so evident , that Master Knollys his owne interpretation of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the singular will carry it : for hee translates it domatim , house by house . Now I appeale to any intelligible man , that knowes but the English tongue , or any other language , where civility dwels , and barbarism is banished ; whether or no , when the Magistrate sends Messengers or Officers to search for any Delinquents , and gives them in charge to search through such a street house by house , I demand I say , whether the Messengers by this their warrant are not in joyned to search every house in that street , & whether house by house be not to be understood every house and all the houses in that street : and when the Officers returne againe to the Magistrate , & relate unto him that according to his command & order they have diligently searched house by house through the street , doe they not I pray in this acknowledge that they have searched every house in that street yea all the houses ? all men that know any thing in reason , know , that house by house , in every street , or in every Citie , is as much as all houses in that street , and in all houses in that Citie . Now when the word of God sayes , Acts 2. that the Christians in Jerusalem and Beleevers brake bread from house to house , and when in the 5. of the Acts , v. 42. it is recorded , that the Apostles daily in the Temple , and in every house , or from house to house , or house by house ( as Mr. Knollys would have it ) ceased not to teach and preach Iesus Christ ▪ It is manifestly apparent that in every of those houses and in all those houses they had an Assembly or Congregation of beleevers , and for ought any thing can be said to the contrary , there might be as many congregations then in Ierusalem as they had Ministers and Pastors there which were in abundance : For none but the Ministers might administer the Sacrament of Baptisme and the Lords Supper : the Apostles and the Ministers of the Gospell only had the charge to feed Christs sheep and Lambes , so that the sheep and lambes were not to feede their Pastor ? Now all the people under them were either sheepe or lambs , and they were not to intermedle in those holy Ordinances to administer them , though they might receive them from them ; and therefore what the holy Word of God relateth to us , that we are bound to believe : but the holy Word of God relates unto us that in Ierusalem , and that in the very infancy of the Church , they had congregations and Assemblies every day in many severall houses at one time ; yea in every house . Ergo , there were many Assemblies and Congregations of believers in the Church at Ierusalem , and that in the very infancy of it : and this Master Knollys doth acknowledge ; for he confesseth they had their meetings day by day , and house by house , that is to say every day and in every house they had their Congregations in Ierusalem , and so he is constrained to confesse that which he had so often and peremptorily denied : but such is the force , power , and efficacy of truth as it will breake out of the mouth of the enemie and fly in their faces : for Master Knollys doth confesse , that besides their meetings in the Temple and in Solomons Porch , and that daily , they had their meetings also house by house Domatim , so that their meetings and congregations in Jerusalem were numberlesse , if they were from house to house . But if neither the Scripture , nor his owne confession , can convince his error , at least let his owne Words take some place with him who in the 23. pag. of his learned answer hath these expressions . Some godly and learned men of approved gifts came to sojourne in this city , and preached the Word both publickly and from house to house , and daily in the Temples , and in every house they ceased not to Teach and Preach Iesus Christ , and some of them have dwelt in their owne houses and received all that came unto them &c. Thus Mr Knollys speaks , and for proof of what he saith he quotes the very places of Scriptures in the Margent of his booke that I produced as Act. 2. ver . 46. Acts the 5. 42. Acts 20. vers . 20. Where from house to house and in in every house in his dialect is all one , which it was not when I quoted it out of the Word of God. And very reason and common experience teaches all men that wheresoever the Independents have their meeting houses they have a Church or congregation there ; and as many meeting houses as they have , so many Churches ordinatly they have , witnesse Toleration-streete , which they call the holy streete I meane Coleman-streete , which an Independent one day meeting me passing through it , tould me was the Saints streete , and that their were more precious Churches in that street then in all England besides , and he did confidently believe it . And I was no sooner passed from him , but turning on the right hand I saw many of the Independents going into the Nags-head a Taverne a little above Coleman-streete ; there they call their Parliament , and make Committees and Chayre-men , for preparing of businesses for the great Councell , and for the advising of them what to do , and there they order how they will deale with the Presbyterians ; and this is one of their meeting houses also whither the Saints resort upon all occasions to consult together about the affairs of the Church & State , and that is the holy drinking Schoole of the Saints , for they say , they are all Saints , and to the pure all things are pure ; and therefore they must have a pure drinking Schoole . But passing from Toleration-streete and leaving their drinking schoole and they together : Let us consider their practices and what Master Knollys saith , who tells us that some godly and learned men of approved gifts came to Sojourne in this City and preached the Word of God both publickly and from house to house , and daily in the Temples and in every house , they cease not to teach and preach Jesus Christ . I demande of any of the Independents now , whether or no , wheresoever any of those gifted men preach , they have not a congregation to preach to ; and whether or no wheresoever any of them hath a gatherd Church ( as they call it ) he hath not there ●n his meeting house a Congregation and assembly , and whether or no wheresoever they have preaching of the Word and breaking of bread amongst them they have not a Church or Congregation there ? I am confident they will none of them deny it : Yea they will acknowledge that in as many places as the Word of God is preached amongst them , and the Sacraments administred , that in all those they have a severall Church , congregation , and assembly & this very reason will dictate unto any man. And therefore if in this City there be many Congregations and assemblies in all those places where they preach publikely , and from house to house , and in every house ; not onely because Mr Knollys saith it , but because every mans reason will convince him of it : after the same manner every man will conclude , That in the Church of Ierusalem there was many Congregations and Assemblies ; for the Scripture relates , That the word of God was preached publikely in the Temple and in Solomons Porch , and that the Saints brake bread from house to house , and that the Apostles ceased not to teach and preach Iesus Christ in every house ; and therefore all Christians are bound to beleeve this because the mouth of the Lord hath spoke it , yea and it is acknowledged by Master Knollys ; from all which it doth now evidently appear to all the world , that there were many Congregations and Assemblyes of beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem , which Mr Knollys notwithstanding doth wickedly deny , affirming there were no more beleevers in Ierusalem , then could all meet in any one place , and so he not onely contradicts himselfe and fights against the very light of reason , but which is more he gives the spirit of God the lye , and therefore he ought by all those of the seven Churches to be severely dealt with as a wicked impostor and deceiver and ought indeeed to be thrown out of all their Congregations as a jugler and a false prophet . Having thus evidently proved that there were many Congregations in the church of Jerusalem , before the persecution : I will by Gods assistance make good that there were also many Assemblyes under the persecution , and after the persecution ; and this I do the rather undertake , because some of the brethren have said that howsoever it could be proved that before the persecution there were many severall Assemblies : yet by reason of the dispersion of the beleevers , the Church of Ierusalem was so wasted and scattered that there were no more left then could all meet in one Congregation . And were it so , that after the scattering of the Beleevers and Christians in Ierusalem , it could never be evinced and made good that there were more then could meet together in one place : yet all this were nothing for the enervating of the argument : for we must ever look upon the first constitution and government of the Church , and what it was originally and by divine constitution , and not what it was accidentally and through persecution and oppression and by the violence of men : for governments of Churches are often changed from their Primordiall State through many casualties as it happened often in the Church of the Jewes : and therefore in all reformations things are to be reduced to the first rule and originall pattern : and we are not to look upon them as by occasion they vary and change through the injury of the times . And therefore if we look into the Church of Ierusalem as she was in her youth and in her most flourishing age , we shall finde her consisting of divers Congregations and many Assemblies , and all them governed by a Common Councell and joynt consent of a Presbytery , which must be the patterne of all Church Government to the end of the world , if wee will in our Reformation conforme our selves to Gods Ordinance and to the first constitution . But because I say they think it so difficult a thing to prove many Congregations in Jerusalem after the persecution , I will now God willing make it evident ; and not onely after the persecution , but even in , and under the persecution : and I will do it first out of that very place our brethren bring against us , and by which they labour to evince the contrary : the place is in the 8. of the Acts verse 1 , 2 , 4. In these words , And at that time there was a great persecution against the Church which was at Ierusalem ; and they were all scattered abroad through the Regions of Iudea and Samaria , except the Apostles , verse 3. As for Saul he made havock of the Church , entring into every house and haling men and women , committed them to prison . Therefore they that were scattered abroad , went every where preaching the word : From whence the brethren gather , that there were no more beleevers left , than could meet in one Congregation . Before I come to prove my Assertion , I must give some Reasons to evince and make good , that this dispersion and scattering of the Beleevers here spoken of , was not so generall and universall and so great , as that there might not yet remain more Congregations in Jerusalem , and more people then could possibly meete in any one place or two : for persecution is the bellowes of the Gospell , which blowes every spark into a flame : so that this their division proved their multiplication at home and abroad , as wee shall see after I have set down my Arguments and Reasons , so that it was no cause why we should conceive that there were fewer assemblies in the Church of Jerusalem then before ; for although I should grant that this persecution was very great in respect of the intention of the persecutors , as reaching to imprisonment and death of all sorts , chap. 22. verse 4. and although I should likewise accord , that in regard of the extent of it , it reache●h to all sorts both Preachers and Christians , because it is said , They were all scattered abroad through all the Regions , &c. except the Apostles , both which notwithstanding I cannot yeeld unto for some reasons following : but I say should I grant all this , yet I affirme that this persecution rather made more Congregations in Ierusalem then fewer then there were before , though they might be smaller and lesser , then so , to wast them and bring them to such a paucity , as they might all meet in one Congregation : for this their division was a cause of their multiplication at home and abroad , as I said before , and will afterwards appear . And even as it was here in England in the time of the Prelates power , when any assembly of those they called Puritans , were at any time found together , they were haled before Authority , ( as the whole Kingdome can witnesse ) and these people were all scattered ; yet so , as they still had their meetings in lesse numbers ; and whereas before they met perhaps a hundred in a company , now this hundred was divided into three or four severall assemblies , which were so many severall Churches ; for in all these they enjoyed all the acts of worship , and did partake in all the Ordinances as fully as if they had been in the most crowded assemblyes ; but this they did for their own safety , and that there might not be such notice taken of them : for commonly if men see a good company of people goe into a house , and none of them come out again , they will by and by gather , that there is something there to be done , more than ordinary ; and that there is some exercise of Religion , or some consultation and plotting about some designe or other ; and therefore it stirs up the people to take more notice of it , and then they begin to examine the occasion of that concourse , and to pry into their proceedings : whereas , if they come but in slender companies , they conceive it to be some ordinary entertainment , and think no farther of it ; so that they then more peaceably enjoy the society and fellowship one of another , without any interruption , which they could not so well have done , if they had come in greater assemblies and companies . And even so it was among the Beleevers and Christians in Ierusalem , in that persecution ; they could not now meet in the Temple , nor possibly at their wonted meeting houses , and yet even then they had their assemblies ; no terrours could make them forsake the companying of themselves together . For in that persecution that is spoken of in the 12. of the Acts , we finde the Church assembled in severall places ; for they were praying in the house of Mary , verse 12. there was one Congregation , to which Peter comes and relates unto them the manner of his delivery , and bids them go and tell it James and the brethren ; and there was another assembly ; and without doubt Peter went unto a third : for he would not goe among the enemies : and it stands with all reason , that in this persecution also , they were as zealous as then , and therefore did not forsake the assembling of themselves together . Neither would the Apostles be idle , who gave themselves continually to prayer and the ministring of the Word , which they could not have done if there had been but as many Christians in Ierusalem as could all have met in one place and in one Congregation ; for one or two of the Apostles could have preacht unto them all , and then to what end or purpose did all the other Apostles tarry in Ierusalem ( who in all their motions and stayes , were directed by the Spirit of God ) unlesse it were to comfort and support the Church there , in the heat and rage of this persecution , when they had scattered their other teachers from them ? From all which it may evidently appear , that there was a very great multitude of beleevers at this time in Ierusalem , and that they were not diminished or scattered , though all their Pastors and Ministers , saving the Apostles , were . And I have very good reason to induce me to beleeve , That this persecution did not extend to all Christians promiscuously , and that all the Beleevers were scattered and disperst except the Apostles , as our brethren conceive . For if wee consider the usuall method of the persecuting Jews , and the manner and custome of all the enemies of the Church in all ages , wee shall ever observe that they chiefely aymed at the taking away and extirpating of their teachers and Ministers , and those that instructed them . So the Iews malice was greatest against the Prophets in all ages , as we may see Matth. the 5. verse the 12. For so they persecuted the Prophets : and in the 23. of Matthew , our Saviour saith , verse 29. Woe unto you Scribes and Pharisees hyprocrites , because ye build the tombes of the Prophets , and say , if we had lived in the dayes of our Fathers , wee would not have been partakers with them of the blood of the Prophets ; and therefore ye witnesse unto your selves , that ye are the children of them which killed the Prophets . Wherefore behold I send unto you Prophets , and wise men , and Scribes , and some of them you shall kill and crucifie , &c. Here our Saviour Christ declares what method they had formerly used in their persecutions ; and that was chiefely to persecute their teachers , and what method they would for the future take , and that was principally To kill and crucifie , the Prophets , Wisemen , and Scribes ; which Prophesie of Christ , was here in this persecution manifestly fulfilled : for here it is said , They were all ( viz. their teachers ) scattered abroad and persecuted , except the Apostles . It was I say ever the method and custome of persecutors to ayme principally at the rooting out and taking away of those they supposed were ablest to teach and instruct the people , and this enraged them against Iohn the Baptist and Christ himselfe ; and that made them at this time so mischievously to persecute their Ministers and Teachers . Neither do I read in all the New Testament , before thss persecution , that as yet they were come to the massacring of the common people ; they had slain the Lord of Life , and stoned Stephen ; and after in the 12. of the Acts we read , How Herod slew James , and because it pleased the Jews , he proceeded to take Peter : they alwayes had their eyes upon their teachers and haled them to prison , as they did Peter and Iohn in the 4. of the Acts ; but for the people , the onely punishment they under-went , till this persecution , was this , That they were cast out of the Synagogues , if any of them did publickly professe Christ . Indeed in this persecution their violence extended to the haling of men and women to prison ; But before , we read of no violence offered unto the people ; onely they railed on them , reviled , and reproached them , as all wicked men , whose tongues are set on fire from Hell , use to do , on all the generation of the just . The same method did the Prelates here in England use ; they chiefly and more principally persecuted the faithfull and painfull Preachers and Ministers every where , and such as they thought best able to instruct the people , and selected but here and there some private families for to scare others , and this method Antichrist and his complices had learned from the devill and the Jewes . So that when it is said they were all scattered except the Apostles , it is to be understood that all their Preachers and Teachers , the Apostles only excepted , were scattered ; For the word all in this place , must be understood , either of all the Beleevers , or of all the Teachers and Officers in the Church of Ierusalem , except the Apostles . But it cannot be understood of all the beleevers , that they were all scattered ; and therefore it must be understood of all the Teachers , and that for many reasons . The first , if all the beleevers had been scattered and none left , to what end then should the twelve Apostles have remained in Ierusalem ? They were not to Preach to the walls , neither would they have remained there idle , but would rather have shaken off the dust of their feet , ( as Christ commanded them ) for a witnesse against them , Luke 10. And would have departed and have gone away with the rest of the Teachers , as all good reason perswades . A second reason is ; because if this particle all be alwayes exceptive or taken to the utmost , and in the largest extent , as some of the brethren imply and would have it ; then there should not one believer have been left in Ierusalem besides the Apostles , which is expresly against the Text , for vers . 3. It is said , That Saul brake into houses , haling men and women , committing them to prison , and this he did at Ierusalem at this time , as he acknowledgeth himselfe Acts 26. ver . 10. And therefore of necessity it must follow , That all the beleevers were not scattered abroad , for some of them were in prison in Ierusalem . And for ought I can gather , all the rest were in their severall houses , or else the Apostles could have had no harbour : for if all their friends had been scattered by this tempest , and if all the sheep had been drove away and the whole flock dispersed , their Pastors without doubt would have followed them : for he would be counted a very bad Shepherd that should not follow or look after the poor sheep that were scattered by the Wolves . Neither can we imagine that the Apostles that were the Pastors of the flock of Jesus Christ , and to whose care he had committed his sheep and his Lambes , with a speciall charge that they should feed them , would relinquish their care and choose rather to dwell amongst a company of Wolves , from whome they could expect no faire measure , then amongst the sheepe : But in that all the Apostles still remained in Ierusalem , I rather gather , and that without all controversie , they continued there for this very purpose , that they might comfort and support the Church there , and refresh the Beleevers in this heate of Persecution , when they wanted the helpe of their other faithfull Ministers and Pastors . Thirdly , it is very evident from the Text , they were onely the Preachers that were scattered ; for verse 4. It is said , That they that were scattered went every where preaching the Word , which expression in the Originall , as may be proved by innumerable places , signifieth such teachers as were Ministers by Office , and such as preached by way of Sermons to a multitude , though they might likewise in private conference instruct , which their publike Ministery did not exempt them from . And although private Christians may teach and instruct one another , as Aquila and Priscilla taught Apollos , and as all Christians are commanded to instruct one another , Col. 3. verse 16. Yet this text speaks not of such a teaching , but of preaching , They went every where , saith the Scripture 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , preaching the Word . For teaching may be an act of Charity , but preaching is an act of Office ; for how can they preach except they be sent ? Rom. 10. So that by vertue of their Office , they might both publikely preach , and in private converse also instruct others wheresoever they came , whether they were sent out by persecution or by mission . As I do conceive of any of those Godly Ministers that were not many yeares since , drove from their habitations , and that were persecuted out of their places by the Prelates , that they might have preached publickly in any Congregation as Ministers and men in Office , and might also have instructed privately ; but the one was an act of duty as it was their Office , and the other of love and charity . And so may a well gifted private Christian instruct and teach others upon occasion , and in private conference , which is an act of love ; but hee cannot properly be said to Preach , which is an act of one in Office , and belongs onely to the Presbyters and Pastors , and such as for their sufficient learning and abilities are called unto the Ministry and ordained and set apart to this Office : and such onely were those that were scattered , except the Apostles : and by all probability these Ministers and Preachers that wee scattered were those that were at the choosing of Matthias , the seventy Disciples and many more . So that for ought I can gather , all the beleevers in Ierusalem , yet remained in their severall habitations and dwellings , except those that were haled to prison . And therefore of necessity there must bee many Assemblies and Congregations yet in Ierusalem , that made all the Apostles abide and continue still among them all , which makes exceeding strongly to prove , that there were innumerable multitudes of Beleevers still in Ierusalem , which of necessitie were forced to divide their assemblies into more distributions and lesse Congregations then formerly , and therefore rather multiplyed their assemblies then otherwise , that by such Privacy they might avoide persecution , as in our times , good Christians here in London were wont to doe , when the Prelates were in their ruff . But out of this place I thus argue . Where there were twelve of the most able , painfull , and diligent Preachers in the world , and that gave themselves continually to prayer and the Ministery of the Word , and at such a time as there was most need of preaching , and when they could not publikely come together , by reason of the Persecution , and where there were innumerable multitudes of beleevers of all nations to be taught and preached unto in their severall Languages and tongues ; there of necessity there must be severall Congregations and assemblies for the imployment of them all , both Preachers and hearers . But in the Church of Jerusalem in the time of the hottest persecution , there were the twelve Apostles , the most able , painefull , and diligent Preachers in the world , and that gave themselves continually to prayer , and the Ministery of the Word , and when they could not publickely come together , by reason of the persecution , and where there were innumerable multitudes of beleevers of all nations to be taught and preached unto in their severall Languages and tongues . Therefore of necessity there must be severall Congregations and Assemblies for the employment of them all , both Preachers and hearers . For this Syllogisme , all and every part of it , is so cleared by what hath formerly beene said , as I am most assured , no rationall man will call either of the Propositions in question . But from the former place I thus further argue . Where there were such multitudes of beleevers of all Nations and Countries , still remayning even in the hottest time of persecution , as had for many years imployed and continually taken up above an hundred painefull Ministers and Teachers , there they could not all meet together in any one place or roome , but of necessity must bee distributed into divers Congregations and assemblies , if they would all be edified ; and much more now they were forced unto it , if they would avoyd Persecution , and provide for their owne safety : But in the Church of Ierusalem in the hottest time of Persecution , there were such multitudes of Beleevers of all Nations and Countries still remayning , as had for many yeeres imployed and continually taken up above an hundred painefull Ministers and Teachers : Ergo , they could not all meet together in any one place or roome : but of necessity must be distributed into divers congregations and assemblies , if they would all be edified , and much more now were they forced unto it , if they would avoid persecution , and provide for their owne safety . The Major of this Syllogisme by the very light of nature and reason , which we may not in a matter of disputation especially relinquish , is manifest and evident . For the Minor it is also apparent from the foregoing discourse : by which it is proved , that their Preachers only were scattered , and all those Ministers that were at the choosing the Apostle Matthias , chap. 1. and many more that instructed the people : but for the people and beleevers , they remayned still in Ierusalem ; the conclusion therefore is firme . But I will now goe on to evince , that after the persecution , there were more beleevers still in the Church of Ierusalem , then could all meet in any one place and room together : and therefore of necessity , they must be distributed into many Congregations and Assemblies : And for proofe of this Assertion , the places following will suffice : and first that in the 9. chap. of the Acts , verse 31. Then had the Churches rest through all Indaea and Galilee and Samaria , and were all edified , and walking in the feare of the Lord , and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost , were multiplyed . Out of which words it may evidently appeare , that persecution is but the bellowes of the Gospel ; and that which the enemies of the Gospel thinke to be a meanes of extinguishing the light of it , makes it but more gloriously shine forth , and the farther to spread its rayes : for by blowing and puffing at it , they spread it the more , and extend it here and there farther abroad ; as wee see by this persecution and scattering of those Preachers and Ministers of the Gospel : for this their dispersion , by which the persecutors had thought to have wasted the Churches , was an occasion of the multiplication of them , and the cause of the increasing of Beleevers every where . And here wee may also observe , That by how much more the rage of the enemy is great and violent , by so much it is lesse durable ; for this great persecution was but short . And it cannot be conceived , but they who were scattered by persecution , would upon the ceasing of it , returne againe to Ierusalem , as most people commonly do , t●●●eir owne Countries , Cities , and places of habitation after persecution . And this also must needs be a great Argument , to induce others to the love of that Religion , which they see God so much favoureth the Lovers and professors of ; the which the Lord so preserveth , comforteth , and followeth with so many mercies , and upholdeth in all their afflictions and tryals , never forsaking nor never leaving them . But if those that were scattered had never returned , that maketh nothing for the weakning the truth of this Proposition , that there were many Congregations and Assemblies still in the Church of Ierusalem ; for this Text proveth that it was not decreased after the dispersion . Out of the which words I thus argue . That Church before the Persecution and Dispersion of whose Ministers and Pastors , was so numerous and had such multitudes of Beleevers in it , of all Nations , as they could not all meet in any one plaee or roome , for edification , and to partake in all acts of worship , but were forced to preach in divers and sundry places , as in the Temple , and from house to house ; and after the persecution ceased and the Church had rest , was greatlier yet multiplied then before ; and whose companies were more & more in number increased , they of necessity could not al meet together in any one place or room for edification , and to partake in all acts of worship , but must necessarily be distributed into divers and sundry Congregations and Assemblies if they would all bee edified . But the Church of Jerusalem , before the Persecution and Dispersion of her Ministers and Pastors , was so numerous and had such multitudes of Beleevers in it of all Nations , as they could not all meet in any one place or roome for edification ▪ and to partake in all acts of worship ; but were forced to preach in divers and sundry places , as in the Temple , and from house to house ; and after the Persecution ceased and the Churches had rest , was greatlier yet multiplyed than before : and whose companies were more and more in number increased . Ergo , Of necessity after the Persecution there were more beleevers in the Church of Jerusalem , then could all meet together in any one place or roome for edification , and to partake in all acts of worship , but must necessarily bee distributed into divers Congregations and Assemblies if they would bee edified . For the Major besides common understanding and ordinary reason which confirme it , it is manifest from the 2 , 3. and 5. Chapters of the Acts , which in expresse words signifieth , That they met daily in the Temple , and from house to house , yea in every house , and therefore that is true and out of all doubt : and for the Minor it is evident from the place above cited , where it is said , The Churches , ( that is to say , all the Churches in Iudea , of which Ierusalem was the Mother Church ) were multiplyed , the word in the Originall 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth properly an increase in number and multitude , and not in measure ; and is so to be understood in this place ; and cannot being applyed unto persons , bee otherwise taken , whatsoever it may of sinnes and graces ; and then also the word is capable of this construction , as may be proved if need required : so that the conclusion doth follow . And truly that of Saint Paul in the first of the Galatians is an excellent Argument to evince that there were more Congregations in Ierusalem then one , where proving that hee had not received the Gospel which hee preached , from men , but from God , hee useth this reason ; That if hee had received it from men , it must bee from the Iewes , and from the Apostles ; for the Gentiles were ignorant of it , and hee was to carry the Gospel unto them , and therefore they could not teach it him ; and to prove that hee received it not from the Apostles ; hee thus speaketh of himselfe . When it pleased God to reveale his Sonne unto mee , that I might preach him amongst the Heathen , I immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood , neither went I up to Ierusalem , to them that were Apostles before me ; but I went into Arabia ; Then after three yeares I went up to Jerusalem , to see Peter , and aboade with him fifteene dayes ; but other of the Apostles saw I none , save James the Lords Brother . Out of the which words besides the singular testimony wee have that the preaching and writings of Saint Paul , are the Gospell of Iesus Christ , and the Word of the living God , against the Papists : we may evidently gather against the Independents , that after the persecution there were more believers in Ierusalem then either did or could all meet in one place : for in saying that he was with Peter fifteen dayes , but in all that time saw none of the Apostles save Iames , this I say , is a sufficient Argument to prove more Congregations and assemblies of beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem , which so imployed the Apostles in their severall Ministeries asthey had not so much spare time to visit Paul , and that Paul also was so taken up in preaching there , that he had no leisure to visit them . And for the diligence of the Apostles in their Ministry it is said in the sixth of the Acts , That they gave themselves continually to prayer and to the Ministery of the Word : and therefore they were never idle ; and that the Apostles either all or the most of them continued resident for many years in Ierusalem , before they distributed themselves into severall Nations and Countries ; and that very few of them were sent abroad , there are frequent testimonies in the Acts of the Apostles ; neither as yet did I ever hear it scrupled , or call'd in question , whether the Apostles were then there or no , when Paul was at Ierusalem ; for it is taken pro confesso , that either all or the most of them were at that time in Ierusalem : neither doth Saint Paul say , I saw none of the other Apostles because they were absent , or were gone to Preach the Gospell in other places . And for Saint Paul we reade , that wheresoever he came , he went into their Synagogues and into their Assemblies to Preach , and that he preacht from house to house : and he that gave so strict a charge to Timothy ( and in him to all Ministers ) that he should Preach in season and out of season ; he himselfe without all doubt , would not neglect his duty , who in the 20. of the Acts , sets his owne example before all the Presbyters for their imitation in their diligent preaching , and he ordinarily preached by the day and by the night , as is manifest out of the same Chapter and many other places ; and surely the time he remained with Peter in Ierusalem , he was as diligent in Preaching , as he was in any of the other Churches ; and he professeth of himself that the care of all the Churches lay upon him , & that he laboured more then all the other Apostles in their particulars : so that it standeth with all reason , that while he was in Ierusalem he was very sedulous in Preaching , as who had both strength of body , and Gods speciall assistance , and his immediate inspiration alwayes to help him in his Ministery ; so that I conceive , as of charity I am bound , that Paul was daily in one assembly or other : now if there had been at that time , no more beleevers in Ierusalem then could have met in one place , congregation , and Assembly , then of necessity Paul must have seen the other Apostles there , as well as Peter and Iames ( for they also were good Church-men , to speake a little in the Prelats dialect ) and they never left the Word , but were alwayes taken up either in praying or preaching amongst them in the Temple , and from house to house , yea in every house : and if there had been but one Congregation or Assembly of beleevers in Ierusalem , the Apostles would daily upon all occasion have been with their flock : Now in that Paul saw them not in all that time he was in Ierusalem , it is evidently apparent there were more Congregations of beleevers in the Church of Jerusalem then one , and more Christians then could all meet in any one or a few places . But to proceed to a place or two more for the further confirmation of this truth Acts 12. verse 24. It is said there , that the word of God grew and multiplped . Here also we have another good effect of a new sierce persecution in Ierusalem ; it increased the number and multitude of Believers there after the Persecutor was taken away , For the Word of God grew and multiplyed , saith the Holy Ghost . Out of which words I thus argue . Where the Word of God daily more and more grew and multiplyed after the persecution , that is to say , where there were more multitudes and greater numbers of Believers added unto the Church ; through the Ministery and preaching of the Gospell then was before ; which notwithstanding was then so numerous , as they could not all meete in any one place or roome , to enjoy all the Ordinances to edification , there of necessity they must be distributed into diverse assemblies and congregations to enjoy all the Ordinances to edification . But in the Church of Ierusalem after a double persecution , the Word of God daily more and more grew and mnltiplyed ; that is to say , there were more multitudes and greater numbers of Believers added unto the Church through the ministery and preaching of the Gospell by the Apostles then was before : which notwithstanding was then so numerous , as they could not all possibly meet in any one place and roome . Ergo , there was a greater number of Beleevers after the Persecution then before : and therefore of necessity they could not all meete in any one place or roome to communicate in all the Ordinances , but must be distributed into severall Congregations and Assemblies if they would all be edified . For the Major I conceive it is so evidently clear as no man of ordinary understanding will not see the truth of it . For the Minor , the Text proveth it : and if we will compare Scripture with Scripture , the truth of it will by and by be out of controversie , for in the 15. of Iohn verse 16. Our Saviour speaking there to his Disciples , saith , I have chosen you and ordained you that you should go and bring forth fruite , and that your fruite should remaine : that is , I have chose you to preach the Gospell and convert men , which is the fruite of preaching the Word ; and causeth the multiplication of Beleevers , for Faith commeth by hearing , Romans 10. Now this Scripture is here fulfilled , for it is said , that the Word of God grew and multiplyed ; that is , it brought forth the great fruite and increase of multitudes of Beleevers , and converted many , notwithstanding all the persecutions that were raised against it and the Church . So that the conclusion must necessarily follow from the premises , and it is most apparent , that there were many Congregations of Beleevers in Jerusalem after the Persecution . But in the 21 Chapter , 20 Verse . there is a place that putteth an end to this Controversie ; and with the which I will conclude my first assertion . In these words , Thou seest Brother ( saith Saint James , and the Presbyters of Jerusalem to Saint Paul ) how many ten thousands ( for so it is in the Originall , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) of Jewes there are which beleeve , and they are all zealous of the Law : In this place the Evangelist speakes of the Inhabitants of Ierusalem that were Beleevers , and had their abode there , and not of strangers , as our Brethren suppose ; and such as they conceive were come up to Jerusalem at that time to the feast of Pentecost , at which they thinke Paul then was : which opinion of theirs might be confuted with many reasons , if it were necessary ; some of the which I shall briefly set downe . As first , it is well knowne that the feast of Pentecost lasted but one day , and that in the time of Wheat-harvest , when ordinarily but few came to Jerusalem . Besides none of the Jewes that lived out of the Countrey of Judaea , and the confines of Israel , were enjoyned to come to that feast , or any other of the feasts so farre as I remember ; neither indeed could they , dwelling in such remote countryes ; except they spent all their time in running about . So that as I conceive is was arbitrary in the Iewes , that dwelt in other countries , whether they would come or no to all those severall Feasts : though I have this opinion of some of the most zealous of them , and best ablest and richest of them , and that had time and leasure , that they would spare neither paines nor costs , so they might enjoy the Ordinances and the society of their Brethren . Besides we reade but of very few strangers , that were at Ierusalem at this time when Paul was there , and they were them of Asia , which were persecutors rather then believers , as the story relateth , verse 27 , 28. Now the multitude of which there is mention made in this place in the 22. verse , they were all Believers , and were inhabitants , and such as were well knowne to Saint Iames and the Presbyters , and were all strangers to Paul ; and such as had onely heard that Paul taught all the Jewes that were among the Gentiles to forsake Moses , &c. And therefore none of these many ten thousands were of the believing Iewes amongst the Gentiles : for they are clearly distinguished from them : for it is said , that those Myriads of believing Iewes were informed that Paul taught all the Iewes among the Gentiles , &c. They then were informed that Paul had taught others . The Iewes among the Gentiles were they who Paul had so taught , and how could they be in the number of them that were informed ? Had they neede to be informed by others what Saint Paul had taught themselves ? Therefore they must needs be the believing Iewes of Jerusalem , and the inhabitants and dwellers there . So that out of the Text I thus argue . Many ten thousands of Believers could not all meet at any one time , or in any one place or congregation to enjoy all the Ordinances to edification ; but of necessity must be distributed into diverse and sundry congregations and assemblies , if they would partakes in all acts of worship and be edified . But in the Church of Jerusalem after all the persecutions , there were many ten thousands believers . Ergo , they could not all meet together at any one time , or in any one place or congregation , for the enjoying of all acts of worship to edification ; but of necessity must be distributed into diverse and sundry congregations and assemblies , they would partake in all the Ordinances , and be edified . For the Major all reason will assent unto it ; for the Minor , the text it selfe confirmes it ; neither doth the word Myrias or Myriades ever expresse lesse then ten thousand , as might out of many places of Scripture be proved and divers authors . And truly to any man but of an ordinary understanding it would seem strange , yea an incredible thing that Jerusalem the Theater of so many miracles and where there were twelve Apostles , and the most of them for the most part resident , and so many famous Preachers and Presbyters , and who at the first beginning of their Ministry , after they had received the gifts of the holy Ghost by their powerfull preaching and a few miracles had in a short time converted above eight thousand people , besides great multitudes both of men and women , besides Priests , and who preached dayly in the Temple , and from house to house , and that for above twenty yeares together ( as mo●t of the Apostles did without interruption ) that in all this time of the Gospells spring , and that in so populous and numerous a city that all these famous Ministers and Teachers should convert no more to the faith , then might all meet in one Congregation : I say all this will seem strange to any rationall man. And as it is against all reason , so it is against the expresse words of the holy Scriptures as hath out of many places in the foregoing discourse bin sufficiently made appear , and out of the place last cited , which doth affirme , That there were many ten thousand beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem after all the persecutions ; all which could not meet in any one place to enjoy all Acts of Worship , no not in a few . Whether therfore it hath not by this and the many other testimonies of holy Scripture and the arguments out of both been sufficiently proved , That there were many Congregations in the Church of Ierusalem , I report my selfe to any that have not the pearle of prejudice in the eye of their judgement ? And this shall suffice to have spoke for the proof of my first assertion . But as in all their former discourse I faithfully set down what Mr Knollys and I. S. had to say by way of answer and confutation to those severall Arguments they opposed , so I shall now in the same manner truly relate what Mr Knollys hath to reply by way of refutation to this my last Argument , and then I will come to what my brother Burton hath to gainsay , and reply to him in order . Master Knollys his words in way of answer to this last Argument page 9. are these . As for the many ten thousands mentioned Acts 21. verse 20. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 comes of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 infinitus ( and though the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 do sometime signifie numerum decem millium , yet not alwayes , but for some great number which cannot suddainly be told as Luke 12. 1. And Beza both according to the old and new version of the Greek into Latin , reads it millia thousands , not de●em millia : And so wee have it in our English Bibles translated thousands . And the following verse 22. will make it probable that they were not so many thousands ; for there we thus read ; the multitude must needs come together , so that I say it is probable that they were not so many thousands , but they could , yea must assemble together . Neither can the Doctor make good from those Scriptures he produceth page 26. to wit Acts the 1. ver . 21 , 22. chap. 6. ver . 2 , 4. and chap. 8 ▪ ver . 1. That there was almost an hundred Preachers and Ministers besides the twelve Apostles in the Church of Jerusalem . The twelve are named indeed in Acts 6. 2. 4. but not an hundred besides , no not any one Preacher but them twelve . And as for the other two places Acts the 1. 21 , 22. and Acts the 8. ver . 1. There is not any word concerning Preachers or Ministers , onely some directions touching the choyce of Matthias who was one of the twelve mentioned Acts 6. v. 2. And although they who were scattered preached the word Acts 8. ver . 4. yet the Scripture doth not declare that they were Preachers or Ministers of the Church in Jerusalem . This Mr. Knollys had to reply ; whose words I have set down at large that all men may see the force of his denyall , and with how little reason these men ●ight against the truth , to maintain their idle opinion of Independency and of the congregationall way : viz. That there were no more beleevers in the Church of Jerusalem then ●ould meet in one place : And if words and denyalls and sottish evasions might be sufficient to overthrow any apparent truth , then Master Knollys and his fraternity will not want them in opposing the most grounded truth and doctrine for the upholding and maintenance of their fond and grollish errors . But now to examine his words , that the truth may more evidently appear , and that my Argument stands firme and good notwithstanding all Master Knollys hath to say to the contarry . First , he babbles about the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 saying that it cometh of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 infinitus ; but what is this I say to the matter in hand thus to trifle about words , if not to amuse the ignorant people only to cloud the truth ? which neverthelesse breaketh forth more illustriously for the confirming and strengthning of my Argument and for the corroborating of the truth contained in it , as will by the seqnell appear : for if 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 be derived and come from a word that signifieth infinite in the concrete , as he affirmeth , then as all the learned know , the abstract is of a larger extent : for darknesse is more then darke , and signifyeth the extremity and profundity of darke ; and so in the same manner , if 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 be the abstract of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as it is according to Master Knollys his learning , then it denotes and signifies a greater number then ten thousand , rather than a lesse , by how much Myriads an infinite and an innumerable multitude of people signifies more then a finite , then ten thousand : for so the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the 12. of Luke is translated when there were gathered together , saith the translation , an innumerable company of people insomuch that they trode one upon another , &c. an innumerable company therefore signifies rather more then ten thousand , then a lesse number in any ordinary understanding . And the best interpretes say positus est definitus uumerus pro infinito , a definite and a certaine number for an infinite . Others interpret the word thus , innumer ae turbae multitudo amultitude of immumerable people . So that by this his vaine jangling about the word he gaineth nothing . Yea the truth is so cleere , that he himself confesseth , that the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sometimes signifies ten thousand , yet not alwayes , but for some great number which cannot suddainly be told ; and for the proofe of what he saith he quots the 12. of Luke the place above mentioned , and brings Bezas his version and our English translation for the confirmation of his assertion viz. that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth not alwayes signifie ten thousand ; and after that he abuseth his own reason to confute Saint Luke who recording the words of St. Iames to Paul , sayes , thou seest brother how many ten thousand believing Iewes &c. To which words of Luke Master Knollys learnedly replies that the following vers . 22. will make it probable that there were not many ten thousands ; for there ( sayeth he ) we thus reade , the multitude must needs come together ; so that I say it is probable that they were not so many ten thousands , but they could , yea must assemble together . Thus Master Knollys disputeth ; so that it is manifest that he argueth not only against me , but confutes Saints Luke himself , who by the Spirit of God delivers unto the world , that there were many ten thousands of believers in the Church of Ierusalem , which Master Knollys by the spirit of error gainsaith ; so that it is no wonder , if he and his fraternity make nothing of of my arguments , when they undertake to give the Spirit of God the lye upon all occasions : for in expresse words the spirit saith there were many ten thousands of believers in Ierusalem , and Master Knollys and his associates affirme the contrary , saying that the Word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth not alwayes signifie ten thousand , and that it is probable there were not so many believere in Ierusalem , and he produceth Bezas his version and our English translation to confirme his errors ; which kinde of silly arguing of his , if it be good , then not only every truth of God may easily be over-throwne , but all Heresies be established : but I pray see the folly of the Man : Beza ( saith he ) and the English interpreters have not translated the Word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ten thousand Ergo it is not so in the Originall : If such kind of disputing be allowed of in the Congregationall way , I shall not so much wonder hereafter that they tumble daily into so many hideous and monstrous opinions ; but of the validity of this argument more by and by , In the meane time , take notice of Master Knollys his words , howsoever saith he 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , doth not alwayes signifie ten thousand , yet it is taken for so●● great number that cannot suddainly be told . Now I referre my selfe to any intelligible and judicious man , whether in this , Master Knollys doth not plainly oppose Saint Luke , and confute what he hath writ , and whether notwithstanding what he saith , the truth doth not yet more cleerly appeare , and that by his owne interpretation of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for in his interpretation two things are observable ; the first , that it signifies some great number . The second , that it signifies such a great number as cannot suddainly be told : from which all rationall men wil conclude , if 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifie some great number that cannot suddainly be told , as Master Knollys affirms , then it signifies more then ten thousand ; for ten thousand is not so great a number , nor such a number but may without any difficulty be suddainly told : for wee have read of five thousand that have suddainly been fed , and of foure thousand at another time , besides women and children that have all likewise been suddainly fed ; and therefore ten thousand may suddainly be told ; and although those five thousand could meet together , and be suddainly fed in the fields , I will not be induced to beleeve that any one place or roome , in a Citie or house could have contained them all to communicate in al the ordinances . Now then if according to Mr. Konllys his learning there were many greatnumbers of Beleevers in Ierusalem that could not suddainly be told ; all rationall men will gather , that they could not all meet in any one place or congregation to partake in all acts of worship ; this I say every good accomptant and intelligible man will easily gather . But because Mr Knollys affirmes , and that so peremptorily , that the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth not alwayes signifie ten thousand , and to that end cites Beza's his version , and the translation of our Bibles , who interpret it thousands , and not ten thousands ; I thinke it fit to say something concerning this busines in way of farther answer to Master Knollys , that all men may the better discerne in to the wickednesse of these trifling men : for all Accomptants know , and they that are but a little skilled in Arithmetick , that the word ten thousand in what language soever it be , loseth nothing of its signification , but retaines the full number , and alwayes signifies ten thousand , though any Interpreter translating the word should for ten thousand interpret it thousands , or many thousands : for this his interpretation diminisheth nothing from the signification of the word ; for ten thousand is ever ten thousand : as for instance , if one writing to his friend beyond the Seas concerning the Battle at Nazebie , should relate unto him the manner of the fight in every particular , and should also set downe the number of each Army ; and in expresse words say , that the Kings Army consisted of ten thousand , and the Parliaments Army of as many , and he that should translate this Letter into the French or Dutch tongue for this certaine number of ten thousand , should say the King came into the field with thousands or many thousands , and the Parliament with as many : I demand of any understanding Arithmetician , or skilfull Accountant , or but of any intelligible creature , whether the number of ten thousand loose any thing of its signification , or be not still ten thousand , although the Interpreter for that definite and certaine number set downe an indefinite number ? I am most assured , his reason will dictate unto him , that there is no diminishing of the number , but it will ever be in the Originall Copie ten thousand , though the Interpreter did not in formall words say the King and the Parliament came into the field with ten thousand men a peece . Even so it is here , Beza and our Translators taking the liberty of Interpreters render the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 thousands , or many thousands , which word notwithstanding in the Originall signifies ten thousand . I appeale now to the judgement of any wise man and godly Christian , whether I shall cleave rather to the interpretation , or to the originall and authentick Copie , or whether the Text is rather to be relyed upon or the traduction ? especially when wee are commanded to goe to the Law and to the Testimony ; without the guidance of which , wee shall wander in darkenesse . Isa . 8. I am confident that all judicious men will conclude that the originall is rather to be stuck to and beleeved then the interpretation . Now when in the Originall the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ever signifies ten thousand , and never lesse , but many times more , as being a word in the abstract , it followes notwithstanding all that Master Knollys , and all those of his party can say or a●firme to the contrary , that the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in that place , and in all other places in the Holy Scripture , and in all good Authors , ever signifies ten thousand ; and Beza himselfe upon the first verse of the 12. of Saint Luke ▪ verse 1. in his briefe notes hath this expression 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 word for word ( saith hee ) signifies ten thousand , and so he interpreteth it in other places . So that Beza's his translation helpeth Master Knollys and his brethren nothing . And as for our English translation , howsoever in this place it rendreth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 many thousands , yet in other places it giveth the right interpretation , the full number the word signifieth , as in the 19. of the Acts , v. 19. where the word is in the Originall 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they translate it there fifty thousand peeces of silver , and ▪ Beza denariorum quinquaginta millia , that is in both translations five Myriads . And so likewise in the 5. of the Revelation , verse 11. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they render it ten thousand times ten thousand , and in Iude the fourteenth . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they translate it , and behold the Lord cometh with ten thousand of Saints . So that it is most apparent , by our interpretation that the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 never signifieth lesse then ten thousand , but being taken single and by it selfe it often signifieth more , and is left free to reach to a greater number , yea an innumerable company , as in the place above quoted in the 14. of Iude , and in the 12. of the Hebrewes , verse 22. where 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in our translation is interpreted an innumerable multitude of Angels : by all which I am most assured , the learned will all conclude that , the place in the Acts 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth no lesse then many ten thousands . So that all Master Knolly's pudder about that word , sheweth nothing but his vanity . And for his reason of his probability , that there were not so many , it is impious and fights against the truth , and gives the Spirit of God the lye ; and as for the multitude in that place that followeth in the 22. verse , all the best Interpreters understand some of the chiefe and select men , and of the prime in authority : for all things were to be carried with order and decency , and not with confusion , which the comming together of many ten thousands would have caused , though they had bin Saints ; for we see what a tumult a few zealots of the Law by stirring up the people against Paul made in the Temple . Now if all the Beleevers in Jerusalem besides women and children had met together , and some of Pauls enemies had beene there also , and suggested to the people that hee was an enemy of the Law of Moses ; what a confusion may all men conceive would there then have beene ? Besides , there was no one place could have contained them all : and therefore Master Knollis his prattle , is not only against all reason , and the very opinion of all orthodox Interpreters , but indeed against the judgement of the learnedst of his owne party , who by multitude in this , as in many other places , understand the more eminent and chiefest of beleevers , and men of gravity , and wisedome to manage a busines , and not a confused company as this man saith : so that what I have replyed in way of answer I perswade my selfe it sufficiently satisfieth all well grounded Christians of the truth of my first Position ; to wit , that ther were more beleevers in Ierusalem then could all meet in any one place or a few , to communicate in all acts of worship . Yet before I passe on to shew the confusednesse , and senselessenesse of this Master Knollys his following discourse , I thinke it fit out of his owne Interpretation of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to frame an Argument for the corroborating of the truth . His words are these . Although the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doe sometime signifie ten thousand , yet not alwayes , but for some great number which cannot suddainly be told . I will not quarrell his English and the manner of his expression , though it is none of the best as in many other places , lest I should seeme to be like him and his abbertors to trifle about words . But thus I argue out of his words . Where there was not only some great number of beleevers that could not suddainly be told , but many such great somes , there they could not all meet together in one place or Congregation to communicate in all acts of worship : But in the Church of Jerusalem there was not onely some great number of beleevers which could not suddainly be told , but many such great somes : Ergo , they could not all meet together in any one place or Congregation to partake in all the acts of worship : for the Major , it is evident , yea so apparent by the very light of reason , that no judicious Christian can deny it ; for all men know that ten thousand may suddainly be told , if five thousand may suddainly be sed ; and they likewise know that ten thousand cannot meet together in any one place or roome , or in any one Congregation to communicate in all the Ordinances ; this I say all men know by the very light of naturall understanding , and as by daily experience they are taught ; much more by the same reason they will be convinced that many such great numbers cannot meet together in one Congregation to communicate in all Ordinances ; all this , the very light of reason suggests to any man : and therefore cannot be denyed ; so that the Major of my Syllogisme is undeniable : and for the Minor , besides the holy Scripture that asserts there were many ten thousands , wee have Master Knollys his concession , that the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sometime signifieth ten thousand , but alwayes is taken for some great number that cannot suddainly be told ; and the word of God saith there were many Myriads , that is many such great numbers : therefore by Master Knollys his owne interpretation of the word it followeth , that there were more Beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem then could all meet in any one place or a few to partake in all acts of worship . And now I will briefly examine his following discourse , though it be little to the purpose , the vanity of the which having been so often againe and againe discovered in the forgoing treatice . And then I will come to my brother Burtons answer . Master Knollys his words are these . Neither can the Doctor make good from those Scriptures he produceth pag. 62. to wit Acts the 1. vers . 21. 22. Chapter 6. ver . 2. 4. and chapter the 8. 1. that there were almost an hundred Preachers and Ministes , besides the twelve Apostles in the Church of Ierusalem , &c. for answer in a few words , I boldly affirme what the Scripture teacheth me , viz : that before the persecution we read of in the 8. chap. v. 1. and before the dispersion and scattering of the believers , besides the Apostles there were in the Church of Ierusalem almost an hundred Preachers and Ministers . And for this the Word of God is cleare and evident : as in Acts the 1. verse 21. 22. Wherefore ( saith Saint Peter ) of these men which have companyed with us , all the time the Lord Iesus went in and out amongst us beginning from the baptisme of Iohn , unto that same day that he was taken up from us , must one be ordayned to be a witnesse with us of the resurrection ; and they appointed , two Ioseph called Barsabas and Matthias . Out of the which words these insuing truths doe necessarily follow ; first , that they that were assembled here with Peter and the other Apostles were ancient Disciples ; for saith the text , they were such as had companyed with the Apostles , all the time the Lord Iesus went in and out amongst them , beginning from the Baptisme of Iohn &c. and therefore must needs be such as had been diligent Schollers all that time in Christs Schoole and such as were well instructed in all Christian principles as is easily gathered out of the very words ; for any one of them were thought fit in the Apostles judgement to succeede Iudas in his place and to be an Apostle , in regard that they had heard and seene all things Christ both spake and did till his death and ascension ; for otherwise they could not have been witnesses of all things to his resurrection . All this I say in the first place doth necessarily follow . Secondly , this truth also doth insue out of the forgoing words , that either all those men were Ministers , or the most of them : for in expresse termes it is related , that they had accompanied the Apostles the time the Lord Iesus went in and out amongst them , beginning from the Baptisme of Iohn untill Christs ascension . Now amongst those that conversed with the Apostles , besids Iohn schollers Christ had seventy Disciples all Ministers , which he sent out two by two into all Cities to preach and to worke wonders , who came back again to him , rejoycing that the Divells were subject unto them , and they stil wayted upon Christs Ministry ; we reade also of many of Iohns Disciples that came unto Christ , all which were Ministers likewise , and such as preached and baptized : and all these were with Peter and the rest of the Apostles at this time , & continued with them till the persecution : for we reade of no departure of them , or separation till then : and all these were men of singular gifts and graces , and such as by the Apostles were thought fit to succeed Iudas in his Apostleship , and therefore were all Preachers and Ministers by Office , and were such as had been formerly sent out by Christ or Iohn the Baptist to preach and baptize and to worke Miracles , and therefore I affirme were all Ministers and Preachers by their place and Office ; and not only gifted brethren : and the Scripture is so cleere in it , as nothing can be more apparent : for it saith Wherefore of these men which have companyed with us all the time the Lord Iesus went in and out amongst us beginning from the baptisme of Iohn unto the same day he was taken up from us , must one be ordained &c. Wherefore of necessity they must needs be ancient and inveterate Disciples and Ministers by Office , or otherwise the Apostles would not have judged them fit for an Apostleship . And all these continued with the Apostles in Ierusalem for ought any thing related to the contrary till their persecution , and were of the Presbytery in that Church : and then it is said they were all scattred saving the Apostles : therefore those that went abroad Preaching the Word after their dispersion and publishing the Gospell , were Ministers and Preachers by Office , which taught by the way of Sermons in all places where they came , and not out of charity as gifted brethren as I have formerly sufficiently proved upon that place , whether I referre the Reader , and therefore shall not feare here to conclude that of necessity there must be an innumerable company of believers in the Church of Ierusalem , that had imployed so many faithfull Ministers and diligent Preachers almost an hundred so long a time , and the which in this their hottest persecution tooke up and imployed twelve of the most painfull and laborious Ministers in the world , who spent all their time in Praying and Preaching amongst them : and for the performance of each of their duties , all intelligible Christians will also gather , that they must necessarily have severall Congregations and Assemblies : for all of them could not preach together at one time and in one place or roome , and therefore there were many Assemblies and Congregations even under the persecution in the Church of Jerusalem , the which afterward were exceedingly multitplyed and increased when the Churches had rest as the Scripture recordeth , the which amounted to many ten thousands ; all the which could not then possibly meete in one Congregation or a few . And this shall suffice to have answered to what ever Master Knollys and I. S. had vainely and impiously to Cavill against such of my Arguments as they thought themselves best able by their learning to deale with , for the seducing of unstable and ungrounded people . And now I come to what my brother Burton hath to say against all my foregoing Arguments . Whose words are these . But I come briefly to your Arguments , whereby you would prove your Classicall Presbyterian government , and so upward . The paterne hereof you take from the Christian Church at Jerusalem . Hereof many Arguments , or rather words , and tautologies you multiply , and toile your selfe and vexe your Reader withall , which you might have reduced to one . It is in summe this . In Jerusalem were many Christian Congregations , and all these made but one Church , and so were governed by one Presbytery . But the Church of Jerusalem , being the prime Apostolicke Church , is a paterne for all succeeding Churches . Ergo , all Church government ought to be regulated by that , and consequently by a Presbytery over many Congregations . As for your indefinite enumeration of those multitudes baptized by Iohn Baptist , and by Christs Disciples , we take no notice of them , unlesse formed into a Church or Churches : but following the expresse Scripture , the first formed Church we finde is in Acts the 2. which though consisting of five thousand , yet it was one intire particular Church , and not Churches ; and they continued daily 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with one accorde in one place together ( vers . 1. ) and in the Temple ( ver . 44. 46. ) growing from an hundred and twenty ( Acts 1. vers . 15. ) to three thousand more ( Chap. 2. 41. ) and then in all to five thousand ( chap. 4. 4. and all these but one Church , which assembled together to heare the Word in the Temple ; and although they wanted a convenient place so spacious , as whereinto break bread , or receive the Lords Supper altogether , so as they were constrained to sever themselves into divers companies , in severall private houses to communicate ; yet this severing was not a dividing of the church into so many distinct formall Churches , or Church bodyes , being but so many branches of one and the same particular Church ; which though you call so many Congregations , yet properly so many Churches they were not . And therefore you never reade the Churches at or in Ierusalem , but the Church of Jerusalem . And this no nationall Church neither , witnesse those Churches in Iudea Gal. 1. 22. Whereupon I answer to your Argument ; and first to your proposition . I deny that those congregations you name are so many Churches properly so called , having their distinct Officers and Members united into one Church body respectively : This I put you to prove : And without proving it , your 11. or 12. sheets spent about that argument , prove to be meer waste paper . And for your assumption , that the Church at Jerusalem as being a prime Apostolick Church , is therefore a pattern for all succeeding Churches , and therefore for a Classicall Presbytery over many Churches : You must first prove your proposition , as before , that there were many Churches in Ierusalem constituted in their distinct formes and bodyes . Secondly it being no more then one entire particular Church ( and not any Diocesan , or Provinciall Church , or the Presbytery thereof classicall ( as you would beare us in hand ) it is a paterne for all particular Churches in succeeding ages ; and yet by your favour not so perfect a paterne , as no Apostolick Church besides it should also come in to make up the paterne compleat . For wee are necessarily to take all the Churches in the New Testament together , to make up one entire and perfect Church paterne . For in the Church at Jerusalem , wee find election of Officers , but wee find not expressed that part of discipline for casting out of corrupt Members , as in the Church of Corinth , and so in the rest . For the Churches were not brought forth to full perfection in one day . Their very constitution had a graduall growth . The Church at Jerusalem had not at first Deacons , till there was a necessity ; and the largenesse of the Church required seven Deacons , which is no patterne for every Church to have seven Deacons . The summe is , to make up a compleat paterne , not onely the Church at Jerusalem , but that of Corinth , of Ephesus , those of Galatia , that of Philippi , and the rest , are to be conferred together , that each may cast in its shot to make up the full reckoning , that so what is not exprest in one , may be supplyed by the rest , to make one entire platforme . For the Scripture consists of many parts , as so many Members in one body ; one Member cannot say to another I have no need of thee , 1 Cor. 12. Againe , the Church at Jerusalem , if it must be a paterne for all other Churches , then in this that all other Churches must be subject to some one Church , because ( Acts 15. ) things in question were there debated , and determined , and sent to other Churches to be observed . But for as much , as that Church , at that time in those things was infallibly guided by the Holy Ghost , wherewith the Apostles there were inspired , in which respect their resolutions were with authority , it pleased the Holy Ghost and us ( that which no particular Church since the Apostles could ever say ) it followeth that the Church then at Jerusalem remaines not in all things a paterne for other Churches ; for a paterne must be in all things imitable and perfect . Lastly , for Appeales so much agitated , and pressed , I have said enough before , and else-where ( as in my vindication ) to vindicate the right use of that in point of Church matters . And so I passe briefly from your first question to your second ; which is concerning the manner of gathering of Churches , and admitting of Members and Officers . I have set downe my Brother Burtons expressions at large , that all men may see how fairely I deale with h●m : ●s for his censure upon all my Arguments , that went before , by which I proved my first Proposition , that they are rather words and tautoligies then arguments , by which I toyled my selfe and my Reader , I passe it by , as neither regarding his pr yses , nor sleightings , who was never yet constant to the Principles either of Humanity or Religion , but like the Camelion hee speaketh of page 3. receives impressions of sundry formes changeable according to the present condition : And as it is said of King Henry the eight , that hee never spared any man in his rage , so it may truly be averred of him , that hee never spared any in his fury & passion , neither living nor dead , upon the least conceived displeasure against them ; no not those hee was most obliged to , as all that have beene familiarly acquainted with him , and his frothy Pamphlets and language can testifie : for he spares not the King himselfe , nor Parliament upon all occasions , to the one of which notwithstanding hee was not onely obliged in all Loyaltie as a subject , but as a speciall servant : and to the other , if ever any man was ingaged in all the obligations of duty and veneration , hee was , who is bound unto that great Councell for his Liberty , which is the life of life , and for his honour and good name , which is better then life ; and yet hee hath spared neither , but hath most unchristianly , and undutifully , and that publickly and privately aspersed them upon all occurrences : and therefore if at pleasure hee can vilipend , sleight , traduce and speake evill of those dignities , I may not thinke my selfe agrieved , if hee most unbrotherly in his scriblings abuse me . Yea , I am so farre from being offended at him , for this his so dealing with mee , as I thinke my selfe honoured by it , and account it matter of rejoycing , having learned that lesson of my heavenly Master , That when men revile me , reproach me and speake all manner of evill of me falsely , for his names sake , that I should rejoyce and be exceeding glad ; for so they have done by all the Prophets , Matth. 5. Luke the 6. and Paul tooke such dealing from the false Teachers of his time , for matter of triumph , ( 2 Cor. 12. verse 10. ) saying , I take pleasure in infirmities , in reproaches , in necessities , in persecutions , in distresses for Christs sake , for when I am weake then am I strong . This I apply unto my selfe , who have suffered as much from him , and those of his party , in reproaches , in persecutions , and in all manner of reviling and blasting language , as their daily Pamphlets and words can witnesse , as any man now living ; and for no other cause that I know of , but that I maintaine the truth against error , and oppose the novelties and groundlesse opinions of the times ; all the which will the more aggravate their judgement ; because they did as immoderately prayse me ( as can be proved ) before they knew my differing opinion from them , as they doe now maliciously and causelesly vituperate mee : and the Lord knowes , that I am not changed in my opinion in any knowne truth from what I both beleeved and to my power practised , above these thirty yeares ; neither had I any reason to vary from my Principles , they being grounded upon the unerring word of truth : and therefore for my brother Burtons and his parties sleighting of mee , and my indeavours , I wave them as meere Grolleries , knowing that my bookes have beene read by more judicious men , then either himselfe , or any of his Fraternity , and have had the approbation of learned men at home and abroad . And now I come to his Argument , for hee hath not so much candour , and faire dealing in him , as to lay downe my reasons , that the Reader might see the grounds of truth , but conceals them all , and makes a Syllogisme of his owne , or else hath borrowed it , from some of his American friends , and fetcht it out of the new World : For I never read the like in either Europian or Asian Writer ; no nor in any African Author : & yet that Country was famous for Monsters , and usually esteemed to be the Mother and Nursery of prodigious births , and yet such a Syllogisme I never saw brought forth by any of that Nation , as this of his framing : and I am confident that every sucking Sophister will bee ready truly to say of it , as hee falsely speakes of those multitudes baptized by Iohn & Christs disciples , that they were not formed into a Church or Churches : the same I say , will any but a Novice in the Art of disputation conclude of his Syllogisme , that it hath neither forme , mood , or figure : and that I could easily make evident , were it not for mispending of precious time , and that I desire not to displease the good old Father , in discovering his nakednesse , and infirmities , who if hee were so highly offended with mee , because hee conceived I meant him , when I spake of a Basket-hilted beard , how much would hee be inraged , if I should discover his ignorance , and make it appeare , that hee is a meer stranger in the art of Logick , which hee would perswade the world hee were so great a Master in . But leaving that , I will come the matter in hand , which is of publicke concernment : and in the first place , I must needs blame him for his Sacriledge and unjust dealing , who at one time robbs the Church of Christ of such multitudes of believers as were converted and baptized by the Baptist and Christs Disciples , and by them added unto the Church of the Iews , who were then the only visible Church upon earth , and proclaimed by Christ himself ( Iohn 4. ) to be the only true worshippers , who saith that Salvation was of the Iews , and that the Samaritans , worshipped they knew not what . Now to the Church of the Iewes those true worshippers , those that were converted by Iohn the Baptist and Christs Disciples , and baptized into Christ , were added : and therfore they were worthy to have been taken notice of by my brother Burton , as formed into a Church or Churches , if believing in Christ , repenting and being baptized in his name and by his authority , be sufficient to make men members of a Church : for as the Catholicke visible Church consists of many Nationall , Provinciall , and Presbyterian Churches , so did the Nationall church of the Iews of many citie & Countries , Churches which were in their Dialect called Synagogues , which is the same with our Churches both in cities and countries , as all the learned well know ; for in all those Synagogues they partaked daily in the morall worship , and had the Preaching of the law and the Keyes of Heaven . Now then when those multitudes that I enumerated in my arguments , baptized by Iohn and the blessed Apostles , and the seventy Disciples were all gathered into Christs fold , and made his sheepe and true believers , and that by the Preaching of the Gospell , and hearing of the voyce of their Pastors , and had amongst them all those sealing and discriminating Ordinances , that were sufficient not only to forme them into a church or churches , but to difference them from Pagans and Infidels , as who were Israelites , to whom pertained the adoption , and the glory , the Covenants and the giving of the Law , and the Service of God , and the promises , as Saint Paul speaketh , Rom. 9. vers . 4. all which I conceive were sufficent and avaylable to make any then living , members of Christs Church . I say , when they had circumcision , and the Passoever , & baptisme , and the Law and the Gospell and that worship of God that he had established amongst them , and were his peculiar people , of whom Christ had given this testimony that they were his true worshippers , and when they were also gathered in according to Gods own appointment , by the sound of the Gospell and by the preaching of Faith and Repentance and by the Ministry of the Word , as all the Prophets had formerly gathered Churches , then those that were Baptized by Iohn , who was a Prophet sent of God ( Luke the 3. ) and sent to baptize ( Iohn the 1. 33. ) and those that were baptized by the Disciples who were sent from Christ as he was from his Father who said Go teach all nations baptising them , &c. all they I say ought by my brother Burton and all the Independents to be taken notice of , as formed into a Church or Churches , what so ever he and I. S. say to the contrary , who in this agree , that those that were baptized by John and by Christs Disciples were no Christians , much lesse cast into a Church mould , according to the New-Testament forme , and lest of all that they were members of one Christian Church at Ierusalem . These are J. S. his formall words pag. 9. So that whiles these men vvill dispute against the truth , they blaspheme and give the Spirit of God the lye : for Christ hath said , that they that heare his Disciples , heare him , and that they that heare his voyce are his sheepe ; novv , vvhen all those that vvere converted by their Ministry , and vvere in token of their faith and obedience baptized , and had given up their names unto Christ , they were all incorporated into his fold , which is his church , his Mysticall body , and were moulded into a church or churches , and so they are set down to us in the holy Scriptures as believers and true members of Christs church ; and therefore formed into a church or churches ; for there is but one Shepherd and one sheep-fold , and Christ had then no other church on earth that we reade of but that of the Iewes ; and which is yet more , it was a reformed church ; for Christ had cast out all the Buyers and Sellers ( John 2. ) out of the Temple , and cals it his Fathers house , and the house of prayer , so that it was now a pure church , and clensed from all pollutions , and in the which all Christs Ordinances were in their purity ; here was the Preaching of the Gospell , the Teaching of the Law , and all the sealing Ordinances , both old and new : here was Circumcision , the Passeover , Sacrifices and Ceremonies , here was Baptisme and the Lords Supper or breaking of bread ; here was the true Invocation or calling on the name of God , and that in the house of Prayer , where all Supplications were heard , and that before Christs death : Here we have all the materialls for the making or forming of a church or churches , or casting of Christians into a church mould according to the new-testament forme ( to speak a little in the Independents dialect ) for here we have visible Saints in multitudes , devoute men and true worshippers from out of all the Nations under heaven ( Acts 2 ) : here we have Christ and his twelve Apostles , and his seventy Disciples , Elders and Teachers in abundance , besides many Women that followed him and ministred unto him ; here was no want of Ministers and Officers and Members of all sorts besides innumerable multitudes of believers and cryers Hosanna , and all this before Christs death , as well as after , and all these Christian believers , and such as did partake of all sealing and saving Ordinances sufficient to cast them into a church mould , and to forme them into a church or churches , as well as after Christs ascension : and therefore my indefinite enumeration of those that were baptized by Iohn and Christs Disciples , ought by my brother Burton and I. S. and all the Independents to have been taken notice of as formed into a church or churches , without Christ and his blessed Apostles who partaked in all Ordinances , be not in their esteeme reputed Christians and formed into a church , or cast into a church mould , which were blasphemy in any to thinke , and therefore is much more the height of wickednesse in my brother Burton and I. S. to affirme and Print : for I. S. his expressions I produced them often before . I will now set downe my brother Burtons formall words , which I cannot but reiterate . For your indefinite enumeration ( saith he ) of those mulititudes baptized by Iohn , and by Christs Disciples , we take no notice of them unlesse formed into a church or churches ; but following the expresse Scripture , the first formed church we finde is in Acts 2. These are his words and that in the name of all the Independents , saying we take no notice of them . So that by this , all men may gather that in the Independents language , and in their Divinity , Iohn Baptist , and all Christs Disciples with Christ himself and all Christian believers in Christs time , and all that by baptisme were received into Christs fold and church , and such as had given up their names to Christ , were not worthy to be taken notice of by the Independent brethren who esteeme of them all as no Christians , but a deformed church , and not cast into a church mould : For my brother Burton peremptorily affirmes , and that in the name of all the Independents pag. 11. that following the expresse Scripture , the first formed church we finde is in Acts the 2. So that they all prof●sse , they reade of no formed church , nor of no church cast into a church mould , according to the new-testament forme , till after Christs death ; and that expr sly set down for the time of it Acts the 2. So that the Christian church before Christs death and ascension was deformed ; that is to speake plainly , that Iohn the Baptist , Christ and his holy Apostles and all Christians made by them , were not moulded up as they ought to be and formed into a Church or Churches ; which if it be not the height of blasphemy , I refer to the judgment of any intelligent Reader ! Amongst them in their new moulded congregations , a Pastor & a Teacher , and two Elders , and a Deacon and five or six brethren more and three or four Sisters can make up a formed Church after the New Testament form ; Now is there any man so stupid and brutish as will not conclude that where Christ was the great Pastor and Shepherd of our Soules , and where there were James and John the sonnes of Zebedee two Teachers or Doctors , those Bonaerges , those sonnes of Thunder , and eight or nine Elders with seventy Disciples all Saints all whose names were writ in heaven with multitudes of Beleevers with many women that followed Christ the great Shepherd of our souls , who had also a Decon amongst them , Judas by name , that all these could not or did not make up a formed church or churches , when ten or twelve in their whibling congregations , so qualified as formerly , can make a formed church after the New Testament form ? I say he that shall not beleeve that the Lord Jesus Christ the great shepherd of his sheep , and all his Disciples , Schollers and followers cannot as well make a formed church , as a few in our new founded or rather confounded congregations , is voyd of all reason and understanding : And they that shall peremptorily and rashly affirm that they were not a true formed church , I proclaim them guilty of blasphemy and deserving most condigne punishment : And therfore when my brother Burton and many of the Independents are guilty of this heinous and facinorous crime they ought severely to be dealt with , as prevaricators against the divine Majesty of the King of Saints and King of Kings and against the honour of the Saints in Christs time , and ought by all Christs true Disciples and such as love the honour and dignity of their King and Saviour Jesus Christ to be abominated as a company of false teachers , calumniators and horrid seducers , how godly soever they seem to the wrold to be . And as all such teachers as my brother Burton and his complices are , ought by Christs Saints and Servants to be looked on as a company of grand impostors and juglers : So the poor and despised Presbyterians , who they terme sinners and carnall people , and men of earth and enemies of Christ and his Kingdome , may comfort themselves in this that they are like their master and his Disciples , and all that were converted by John the Baptist and by the Ministry of Christ and his Apostles and Disciples and baptized by them : for they pronounce of us all , that we are not formed into a church or churches , nor cast into a church mould according to the New Testament forme , and that we are not members of any true church nor Saints , but enemies of Christ , and at best but converts in part , as if Christ the authour and finisher of our Faith , wrought his worke to the halves , this I say may comfort all us the poore despised Presbyterians ; for the same they say of Christ and his Disciples , and of all that were converted and baptized by Johns and their ministry and such as partaked in all Ordinances , of all which they affirm , That they were not formed into a Church or Churches according to the New Testament form : for in their babble , there was not a formed church , till that we reade of Acts the 2. So that neither Christ nor his Disciples nor John the Baptist and his Disciples , nor the hundred and twenty names we read of Acts the 1. in their learning were a formed church , nor all the other worshippers the Scripture speaks of Act. 2. nor thought worthy by them to be taken notice of for a church or churches ; So that by this bold assertion of my brother Burton and I. S. they do not only oppose the truth , but indeed many of those of their own party and tribe , howsoever they pretend they write in the name of them all , who I am most assured will give them little thanks for this their pains ; for to my knowledge the learnedst of them are against them in this point and disavow their opinion : For the principallest of them hold that the hundred and twenty names we read of Acts the first , were a true formed church as all their writings and disputes declare : and therefore my brother Burton and I. S. affirming the contrary , in this they oppose many of their brethren as well as the Presbyterians ; and for this their temerity , I am most confident they will be highly blamed by all the Judicious of that party . And truly if the hundred and twenty names were not a true formed church , there was then none upon Earth . And if they had not been a formed church according to the New Testament forme , they could not have given a forme to other churches ; for all learned christians agree in this , That it must be a true formed Church , that must make others true formed churches : For they cannot give and communicate that to others that they have not themselvs : this is one of their own principles , and therefore they cannot deny it . Now if the hundred and twenty names were a true formed church , then all that were baptized by Iohn and Christs Disciples , and as many as were converted by their Ministry , were a true formed church or churches ; for they were all formed after one and the same way , so that what made the hundred and twenty Names a true formed church , made all the other a true formed church or churches , if the same cause can produce the same or the like effect . And if men would but seriously consider , what it is that is absolutely requisite or necessary and indeed abundantly sufficient for the making or forming of a true church or churches , or for the making of any man or woman a Member of a true formed church , they would soon and without any difficulty perceive , That all those that were baptized by Iohn the Baptist and Christs Disciples were as well formed into a church or churches as the hundred & twenty names and those three thousand my brother Burton speakes of , and which he ●alls the first formed church : For all those that were baptized by John and Christs Disciples beleeved the maine points of the christian Faith , and professed subjection unto the Gospell of Jesus Christ and his Kingdome , as well as the hundred and twenty names and the other three thousand , and this was as much as Iohn the Baptist , Christ himselfe and all his Apostles required for the forming of them into a church or churches and making of any men or women Members of the same , as is manifest in the second of the Acts verse 38 ▪ where Peter saith , repent and be baptized . And where likewise it is recorded , That as many as gladly received the Word were baptized , verse 41. and the same day were added to the church about three thousand Soules . Neither was there required any more of those converted by Philippe in the church of Samaria , Acts the 8. or of the Eunuch or of the Goaler , or of any other that were admitted into church-fellowship in the Apostles ●imes , then that they should beleeve and be baptized , as is apparent through the whole story of the Acts. Now then when all that were baptized by the Baptist and Christs Disciples , did all repent and beleeve , as the Scripture relateth they did , of which the hundred and twenty names were a part as well as those three thousand , then they were all moulded into a church forme , and formed into a church or churches as well as the three thousand , that my brother Burton confesseth , following the expresse Scripture , were the first formed church . And if beleeving the Gospell then , and yeelding subjection unto it , and repenting and being baptized were sufficient to make them Members and forme them into a church or Churches , then beleeving and repenting now , and being baptized and yeelding subjection unto the Gospell is sufficient for the making of either men or women Members and forming of them into a church or churches ; for these were the principall things and the only things then thought sufficient by the Baptist , Christ and the blessed Apostles and all the Evangelists for the making of any Members , and that in the Apostolicall , prime and purest churches . Neither have any Ministers of the Gospell in these our dayes , any other rule to go by informing or gathering of churches or receiving of Members into any church , then that Iohn the Baptist and the glorious Apostles and Disciples of Christ had , all the which notwithstanding did then set up Christ upon his Throne as well as any Independent Ministers in our times : and therefore as it is high presumption and rashnesse in those of the congregationall way to make or frame to themselves and to the Church of God any other rules to go by in forming of churches then those set down by Christ himselfe , who is only to be heard Mat. 17. So it is a great sinne and breach of charity in them to deny those to be formed into a church or churches , that observe not their new rules , and yet observe and follow Christs injunctions and commands : from all which I may well and safely conclude , That when those that were baptized by the Baptist and Christs Disciples imbraced the Christian faith and professed subjection unto it and unto Christ the Messiah , and were baptized by them into Christ or in his name , who were men in office and sent of God to this purpose , as having their commission immediately from him for their so doing ; for so Saint John saith , Ioh. 1. v. 33. He that sent me to baptize , &c. so Christ saith , Go teach all Nations and Baptize them , &c. Mat. 28. I say when this was the substance of Iohn & the Apostles commission , and when John performed it accordingly baptizing all Jerusalem and all Judea , and all the Regions round about , Matth. 3. and when the Disciples of Christ baptized more then John , Iohn . 4. then it followes that all those they baptized were all moulded into a Church or Churches , as well as the hundred and twenty names ( who were baptized by their Ministery ) and those thousands that were converted , baptized and added unto the Church in the 2. of the Acts by the Preaching and Ministery of Peter , and the other Apostles , and were all by the same reason formed into a Church or Churches , ( not withstanding whatsoever my brother Burton and I. S. speake and dispute to the contrary ) and therefore they ought to have beene taken notice of by my good brother as formed into a Church or Churches . And if it be duly considered what the Independents teach and hold concerning a true formed Church , after the New Testament forme , and according to their Principles , then this very Church my Brother Burton saith was the first formed Church wee reade of , was neither in his owne opinion , nor according to the doctrine of those of the congregationall way , a true formed Church , as not having distinct Officers and Members united into one Church body respectively , and therefore not a church properly so called : and so then it will follow , there was not at that time a true formed church in the World , which is impious to say or thinke , as in the sequell of this tractate by Gods assistance I shall abundantly make appeare , and that from my Brother Burtons owne words , and from the Independents definition of a Church : and therefore my Brother Burton ought as little to have taken notice of those converted by Peters Sermon for the first formed Church as of those that were baptized by Iohn and Christs Disciples , for they had not their distinct Officers and Members united into a Church body respectively according to their learning ; yea they had not then Deacons at all , nor Elders as many of the Independents hold , nor other of their requisits for the making of a formed Church : and therefore it was notachurch properly so called to speake in their Dialect ▪ But of these things in their due place . I will now examine his following discourse , by which the vanity of my Brother Burton will the better appeare , and for the which I perswade my selfe he will receive if not a severe censure , at least a moderate check , such an one as I causelessly had not long since from a Plumporidge Presbyterian brother , one of their fellow comoners and a trencher friend to that party : for my Brother Burton doth in expr●sse words grant that which all the Independents and those of his faction absolutely deny , viz. That there were many congregations and assemblies of Beleevers in the Church of Jesalem : this I say he granteth , which all they deny , attesting the contrary , as all their dissenting Arguments shew , who labour to prove that there were not many congregations and assemblies of Beleevers in the Church of Jerusalem ; and in formall words affirme , That there were no more Beleevers in that Church , then did and could all meet together in one place and congregation : for they knew very well that if they should grant that , the day on their side is lost : and this caused Master Knollys by name , and I. S. to come out against me for holding there were many congregations , with a promise , that if I could prove there were more Beleevers in the Church of Jerusalem then could all meet in one place to partake in all acts of worship , that then the controversie would bee at an end , and so doe all the Independents say , that I ever yet talked with . Now my Brother Burton an old Disciple , and Father amongst them , acknowledgeth that there were many congregations of Beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem , & that in its infancy and childhood , and proveth it by reason and arguments , as that there was no place great enough to containe them all ; and therefore they were forced into severall assemblies , and that the largenesse of the church required seven Deacons . These are his owne words , by which he proveth many congregations in the church of Ierusalem , which was that I laboured to prove , and therefore hee hath done my worke . Now all men know where there are seven Treasurers , there must needs be an innumerable number and multitude of Beleevers : For two or three Treasurers would have served any one congregation though it had consisted of many more then five thousand , as daily experience teacheth us . Now that there were se●en at the first appointed , it sheweth a mighty vast multitude of Beleevers and Saints ; and if in its infancy there were so many ordained , how many more may wee suppose were afterward in future times made , when the multitudes of Beleevers daily increased as the Scripture relateth ? and these I say are my brother Burtons own Arguments against himself to prove many congregations of Beleevers at that time in the church of Ierusalem , which notwithstanding , is that all the Independents deny . Now if his brethren doe not truly conclude of him , and say , as they did , when he writ his Protestation protested of which hee himselfe was ashamed , that hee was a weake man , and unfit for that busines , and that hee should have left that dispute to those that had many yeares studied the question , I shall be much deceived : and if I have not beene mis-informed by some of that way , many of the most approved of them for judgement , have already given this verdict of him , and that for his very vindiciae veritatis , or rather falsitatis , and for his Truth shut out of doores that hee was a weake man , and unfit for this imployment , as being a man of more passion and choler then grounded reason and argumentation ; and therefore would spoyle their cause . But now to the matter in hand . My Brother Burton acknowledgeth that the Beleevers in the church of Ierusalem , were so many , in the very infancy of it , that for want of a convenient place , as wherein to breake bread , or receive the Lords Supper all together , they were constrained to sever themselves into divers companies ; and to communicate in severall private houses , which concession of his quite overthrowes the opinion of those of the congregationall way as they call it ; yet saith hee , this severing was not a dividing of the Church into so many distinct formall Churches or Church bodies , because but so many branches of one and the same particular church , which though ( saith hee ) you called so many congregations , yet properly so many Churches they were not , as not having their distinct Officers and Members united into one Church body respectively . These are his formall words . So that he distinguisheth between church and congregation , as Master Knollys doth betweene 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not making them synonima's , as other men and those of the congregationall way usually doe , and thinkes by this his grollery to evade the dint of all Arguments that are brought to convince them . The question therefore betweene me and my Brother Burton at this time , is , Whether a congregation and a company of beleevers communicating together in church Fellowship , and in all the saving and sealing Ordinances , be a church properly so called , which my Brother Burton denies , saying , that although I called them so many congregations , yet properly so many churches they were not ; and puts mee upon the proofe of it : and therefore to gratifie my kind brother , & to shew how willing I am to please his humour I do undertake that work . Now if I can make it appeare , & evince , that those severall Assemblies and congregations of Beleevers in the church of Ierusalem wee reade of in the first six chapters of the Acts , were so many severall churches properly so called , then hee will acknowledge and confesse that my elevenor twelve sheets spent about this Argument prove no waste paper ; and then also the controversie betweene us is at an end , and hee must turne Presbyterian Dependent if hee hath any honesty in him . This then is my taske to maintaine , and prove that those congregations and severall assemblies or companies of Beleevers in the church at Ierusalem , were so many churches properly so called , which by the grace of God and his blessed assistance I doubt not but to make good , although he had sufficiently himself overthrowne the Independents doctrine , by the very granting there were many congregations in Ierusalem . But by the way , before I come to prove what I have undertaken , I will take this liberty to premise thus much , if That my brother Burton speaketh of the church at Ierusalem bee orthodox divinity , viz. that the severing of themselves , into divers companies , and into many severall congregations , in severall private houses , for the partaking in all the Ordinances , and for the injoying of all the acts of worship , that they might be the better edified , makes them not so many distinct formall churches , or church bodies properly so called , ( because but so many branches of one and the same particular church , the communicating and participating notwithstanding in al the which Ordinances in al ages , was thought sufficient to constitute a formall church , or a church body properly so called ) : then I affirme the same may be concluded of the catholick visible church ; for that is but one church , and one sheep-fold , as being founded and built upon that one Rock Iesus Christ , that onely Pastor and Shepheard of his sheepe ; and therefore one of these conclusions must necessarily insue upon his Principles , viz. if the severing of a particular church into many congregations and assemblies makes them not severall churches or church bodies properly so called , as my brother Burton teaches ; because it is but one and the same church , and all those congregations are but so many branches of that one church : then the severing of the catholike visible church into many congregations and assemblies through the world , makes them not so many churches properly so called , because the church of Christ is but one and the same church , and all those congregations are but so many branches of that one church : and so by his learning there shall now be no visible churches upon earth properly so called , although they injoy all Christs Ordinances in each of them , for they are but so many branches of that one church . And if this bee good Divinity , then let all men turne Expectants and Seekers , for wee have not in the world as yet any particular visible formed churches ; for all these severall congregations are but so many branches of that one catholicke visible church : and a branch and a member of a church is not a church properly so called in my brother Burtons Dialect : and therefore wee have no true visible churches , or church bodies upon earth properly so called : this I say will necessarily follow upon my Brother Burtons unsound Principles and this his opinion , which I am confident upon his more serious thoughts , and when he makes not such haste , ( as he confesses he did , when he writ this his book against me ) he will acknowledge to be very erroneous . But if he shall against all reason , undertake to maintaine the same doctrine concerning the Catholicke visible church he doth about the church of Ierusalem , I am assured he will be highly condemned by the learnedest of his party as well as by the universall consent of all the judicious Divines in the world , who I know are of a contrary judgement . But I say , if upon mature deliberation he shall acknowledge and grant that the severall congregations or churches of believers mentioned in the Scriptures , as that of Corinth , Ephesus , Galatia &c. and their own severall congregations in their new gathered churches ( howsoever he will not grant that title unto our assemblies ) I say if he shall but accord that both the primitive churches and their new congregations be churches properly so called or church bodies , though but so many branches and members of the Catholicke visible church , which yet is but one and the same church : then likewise of necessity it will follow , and he must yeild unto it , that all those severall congregations and assemblies in the church of Ierusalem were churches properly so called , though but so many branches of that one and the same particular church , because as the learned know , all particular congregations and churches that partake in all the Ordinances as they are similar parts of the whole church , so they doe all partake of the name and nature of it and are all of them churches properly so called ; and therefore by the very same reason I say , all those severall congregations and assemblies in the church of Ierusalem being parts of that Nationall city or Presbyterian church , that one and the same church , as partaking both of the name and nature of that church , are all of them churches properly so called ; one of those conclusions , I affirme will necessarily follow from my brother Burtons principles . And for the better evidencing of what I have said , I will adde a few words more by way of a corollary , that whatsoever the whole church at Ierusalem had in it to make it the first formed church properly so called , the same had all the congregations and assemblies respectively and severally considered , to make every one of them churches properly so called : And therefore if the whole church at Ierusalem may challenge the name of a true formed church ( as the Independents acknowledge ) then the severall congregations and assemblies respectively and severally considered , might do the same , and were churches properly so called . For if the whole consisted of visible Saints , so did every one of those severall congregations and assemblies consist of visible Saints . And if the whole had the blessed Apostles in it and Christs seventy Disciples and all sorts of church Officers , so had every severall congregation and assembly of that church , though but a part and a branch of the whole . And if the whole church inioyed all the saving and sealing ordinances and all acts of worship , and continued stedfastly in the Apostles doctrine and fellowship and in breaking bread and in prayer , so did every one of those congregations and assemblies severally and respectively considered : And therefore when all the branches of that one particular church at Ierusalem , viz : every congregation and assembly severally considered and as a part , were equall to the whole church in all priviledges immunities and in whatsoever is required for the making of a true formed church , so that there was nothing wanting to either of those congregations that the whole church partaked in and injoyed or could challenge for the making it a compleat Church , then it followeth and that necessarily , that if the whole church be a true formed church and a church properly so called as the Independents confesse , that all those congregations & assemblies severally considered were churches properly so called . This I thought good to premise . And now I come to make good what I undertooke , which is to prove those severall Assemblies in the church of Ierusalem , to be churches properly so called , which I do by this argument . All such assemblies & congregations as daily met together in diverse companies in the Temple , and in Solomons Porch and in severall private houses , in the fellowship of the Gospell , and in the name of Christ , and clothed with his power , and honoured with Christs presence , being all believers and Saints , and such as gladly received the word , and were all baptized and continued stedfastly in the Apostles doctrine and fellowship , and in the breaking of bread and in prayer , and injoyed amongst themselves in their severall congregations all the saving and sealing Ordinances , and all Acts of worship , and whatsoever priviledges and immunities the whole church partaked in ( and the which the Independents themselves repute and thinke sufficient for the making and constituting of a formed church ) and who also had amongst them in those severall assemblies Ministers immediately sent them of God and inspired with the holy Ghost , every one of the which had the keyes of the Kingdome of Heaven given unto them by Christ himselfe , with a promise to be with them to the ende of the world , and that whatsoever they loosed on earth should be loosed in heaven ; and whatsoever they bound on earth should be bound in heaven , and that his spirit also should leade them into all truth ; the which Ministers likewise taught them whatsoever Christ had commanded them , and that daily in the Temple and in every house , all and every one of them respectively and severally taken , were true and compleate churches properly so called . But in the church of Jerusalem there were many such assemblies and congregations as dayly met together in diverse companies in the Temple and in Solomons Porch , and in several private houses , in the fellowship of the Gospell , and in the name of Christ , and clothed with his power , and honoured with Christs presence , being all believers and Saints , and such as gladly received the Word , and were all baptized and continued stedfastly in the Apostles doctrine and fellowship , and in the breaking of bread and in prayers , and injoyed amongst themselves in their severall congregations , all the saving and sealing Ordinances , and all acts of worship and whatsoever priviledges and immunities the whole church partaked in , and the which the Independents themselves repute and thinke sufficient for the making and constituting of a formed church , and who also had amongst them in those severall assemblies Ministers immediately sent them of God and inspired with the holy Ghost , every one of the which had the Keyes of the Kingdom of Heaven given them by Christ himselfe , with a promise to be with them to the end of the world , and that whatsoever they loosed on earth should be loosed in Heaven ; and whatsoever they bound on earth should be bound in Heaven , and that his spirit also should leade them into all truth : the which Ministers likewise taught them whatsoever Christ had commanded them , and that dayly in the Temple and in every house . Ergo , all and every one of those Assemblies and Congregations respectively and severally taken , were true and compleat churches properly so called . For the Major , no well grounded Christian will deny it , especially the Independents cannot gain say it : for if two or three met together in the fellowship of the Gospell and in Christs name make a true visible church , as those of the congregationall way hold and teach ; then much more where two or three hundreds are met together in the fellowship of the Gospell and in the name of Christ and in the which also they partaked in all the saving and sealing Ordinances , as in the preaching of the Word and Prayer , and in the Sacraments of Baptisme and the Lords Supper , and that by lawfull Ministers and Officers appointed and sent by God himselfe ; I say , by far better reason such a congregation is a true and visible and compleate church properly so called , as all rationall and intelligible men will easily conclude ; and therefore this cannot be denied by the Independents , especially when ( as I noted before ) it is their owne Doctrine , taught in all their writings , and Preached by every one of the congregationall way , and confirmed by their own daily practice . And to passe by many books writ of late by the Ministers of New-England and some of the Independent Ministers here amongst us , I will only at this time pitch upon one who hath in my opinion , dealt more candidly then any of his brethren : for he kepes no reserves Donec ad triarios redierit res , but sets downe plainly what they hold . I will make bold therefore with his new blasing lights , lately set up , upon that learned Beaken , called Truth gloriously appearing from under the sad and sable cloude of obloquy . In the which treatise , pag. 22. and 23. the author in the name of all the Independents declares their judgement , concering this businesse , whose words I will set down at large , desiring to deliver their minde in their own expressions rather then in mine , that they may not hereafter accuse me to have pickt and chose what made most for me and against them , and left the rest . His words are these . Object . It may possibly here be objected , how will it appeare that so small a number as two or three joyned together in the fellowship of the Gospell , do constitute a visible Church ? Answ . It will appeare evident by this insuing argument . Christ hath given his power , and promised his presence to two or three ioyned together in the fellowship of the Gospell ; therefore two or three so joyned together , do constitute a visible church . The Antecedent is proved from the Words of Christ Matth. 18. If thy brother offend thee , tell him of it ; if he refuse to heare thee , take two or three ; if he heare not them , tell it to the church : if he neglect to heare the church , let him be unto thee as an Heathen and a Publican . I say unto you , whatsoever you shall binde on earth shall be bound in Heaven , and whatsoever yee shall loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven . Loe ! Here 's their power given them by Christ . The presence of Christ is promised by them . vers . 20. Where two or three are gathered together in my name , there am I in the middest of them . The consequent cannot be denied ; for what people in the world may be called a church , if they may not , to whom Christ hath given his power , and promised his presence ? If the gifts of Christ be of any force , if the power of Christ be of any efficacy , then they have a right to be so called . Neither is this destitute of learned men , who have given their suffrage to it . Humfred . de religione vera conservanda pag. 24. Ecclesiam cum dico , non unum aut alterum sacerdotem aut ministrum , sed legitimum ac Christianum catum nomino et innuo . Besides , the definition of a visible church , will prove the consequent . A visible church is a mysticall body whereof Christ is the head , the members be Saints , called out of the world , & united together into one congregation by an holy covenant , to worship the Lord , and to edifie one another in all his holy Ordinances . This definition , though it properly looke upon a compleate church , it is appliable to two or three that are joyned together in the fellowship of the faith of the Gospell . 2 , Object : But is it like that two or three there is taken for the church mentioned vers . 17. to which Christ hath given his power ? Answ . I do not say that it is alwaies so taken , for because the church doth frequently consist of many ; but this I say , that it may be so taken , as the very coherence of the words shews . Beside , it will further appeare thus ; if two or three may meet together , clothed with Christs power , and honoured with Christs presence , then two or three may be the church mentioned , vers . 17. but two or three may meet together , clothed with Christs power ; for they meet in his name ( as the text speakes ) 1. e. clothed with his power , for name signifieth power in severall Scriptures Prov. the 18. 10. Philip. 2. 10. and honoured with his presence : and therefore two or three may be the church there mentioned . 3. Object . But such a company being destitute of Officers , can be no church . Answ . If it had been said , they could have been no compleate church , I would have consented . But to say , that they are not a compleat church , therefore they are no church , is a Non sequitur . A man that wants a hand , or foot , or both , is notwithstanding a man , though a maimed man , Officers do not concurr to the esse or being of a church ; but to the bene esse , or well being of a church ; for otherwise , put case the Officers of a church dye , then must the church be unchurched , and so Toties quoties as such a thing happens , which in times of mortality may be often . Againe , a company of believers ioyned together in the fellowship of the Gospell hath the matter and forme of a church , even before it hath any Officers , and therefore is a Church without them ; it hath the matter of a Church , a company believing 1 Cor. 1. 2. Ephes . 1. 1. and it hath the forme of a Church , viz. a combining and uniting of themselves together into one body by the bond of an holy Covenant . I have spoke some thing the more in this particular , to strengthen such as have built upon this foundation ; that upon the reading of any books , or hearig of any arguments on the contrary side , their hearts may not ( like the heart of Ahaz Isai the 7. 1. when he heard of the confederacy of Syria and Ephraim ) be moved , as the trees of the wood are moved with the winde . This is the discourse of that Author , whose words I have related in their full length and extent , not intending at this time to shew all the errors of them , which would require a just volume , though occasonally I shall meete with some of them , and make it appeare that according to his discription of a church , which he hath taken out of Master Cotteos booke of New ▪ England none of the congregationall churches at this day are compleate churches properly so called . And if that also my brother Burton speakes , be true , then the very church of Jerusalem ( as I said before ) which he calles the first formed church , was not a true formed church properly so called . All this occasionally I hope to make evident . In the meane time , I will make use of such Arguments , as the new lights from the Summer Ilands afforde me , for the proving of my major proposition , which was , that , All those Assemblies and Congregations , met together in those severall houses at Ierusalem , every one of them respectively and severally taken , were churches properly so called . And this I doe the more willingly , because I conceive it will better sound in my brother Burtons eares , and those of his party , to heare one of their own great Rabbyes who they usually call Giants , and tall fellowes , then to heare me , who at pleasure they stile a Pigmy and Dwarfe ; from his words therefore I thus argue . If two or three met together in the fellowship of the Gospell and in Christs name , and clothed with his power , and honoured with his presence , doe constitute a visible church , as he asserteth and laboureth to prove in the name of all the Independents : then much more two or three hundred met together in the fellowship of the Gospell and in Christs name , and clothed with his power , and honoured with his presence , having amongst them also their lawfull Officers and Ministers , and injoying likewise all those saving and sealing Ordinances within themselves , which the Independents confesse are sufficient for the constituting of a Church properly so called , then I say , and that with far better reason , that such a company doe constitute a compleat visible Church or a Church body properly so called : but in the Church of Jerusalem there was not onely two or three met together or two or three such Assemblies and Congregations , but at least twelve , if not halfe twelve score , yea innumerable , in all and every one of the which , they met together in the fellowship of the Gospell and in Christs name , and clothed with his power , and honoured with his presence , and in all and every one of the which respectively and severally , they had also their lawfull Officers and Ministers , and injoyed all those saving and sealing Ordinances , which the Independents confesse arr sufficient for the constituting of a Church properly so called . Ergo all and every one of those Congregations severally and respectively considered were Churches properly so called . This Argument is grounded upon the Independents owne Principles , and upon their very words , and corroborated with their owne reasons , For what people ( say they ) in the world may bee called a Church , if they may not , to whom Christ hath given his power , and promised his presence ? If the gifts of Christ be of any force , if the power of Christ bee of any efficacy , then they have a right to be so called . Thus the Independents speake ; and therefore without they will renounce their owne Principles , and abjure all reason , and the very light of understanding given them of God , they must acknowledge those severall congregations in the Church of Jerusalem to be Churches properly so called , as having in every one of them whatsoever they thinke requisite and sufficient to constitute a formed Church ; for there were in each of them respectively such Ministers and Officers , as to whom Christ had given his power , and promised his presence , and that to the en● of the world , Matth. 28. vers . the last . They had also in all those congregations , all those Priviledges , Immunities and Ordinances , the injoying of the which the Independents thinke sufficient to make any one of their new congregations a compleat and formed church , or church body properly so called : as for their Ministers and Pastors , they had all the blessed Apostles amongst them , and Christs seventy disciples , and many other Preachers abundantly furnished with al gifts as who had gone in and out with Christ from the very beginning of his and Iohns Ministry , the meanest of which was thought fit to be an Apostle , as is manifest from the first of the Acts ; and they had amongst them also in their severall congregations , many Beleevers and Saints , and all of them extraordinarily gifted and qualified , and such as continued stedfastly in the Apostles doctrine and fellowship , and in the breaking of bread , and in prayers ; therefore they were visible Churches , ( I doe not with the Author say mysticall bodies ) the Members of the which were visible Saints , such as were called out of the world , and united together in their severall congregations , and that with the holy covenants of Baptisme , and breaking of bread to worship the Lord in all his holy Ordinances , and therefore they were so many compleat churches , and churches properly so called , as being joyned together in the fellowship of the faith of the Gospel , and having in all those assemblies and congregations severally and respectively , both for matter and forme , that which the Independents hold ever sufficient to constitute and compleate churches properly so called : for the matter of those congregations , they were visible and miraculous Saints , not ordinary ones , as being inspired with the Holy Ghost , and having amongst them Officers and Ministers of incomparable sanctified & transcendent indowments , viz , the holy Apostles , al the which were led into all truth by the Spirit of God , who spake in them and by them infallibly , who had all and every one of them the Keys of the Kingdome of Heaven , viz. the power of order and jurisdiction , by which they preached the Gospel , and ordained and constituted all other churches , and gathered and formed churches , both in Ierusalem , and in all other cities and countries wheresoever they came . And as in all those congregations and assemblies they had the materials both for Officers and Members of true compleate formed churches ; so t●●y had likewise that which the Independents call the forme of compleate churches properly so called , to speake in their owne language ; for they were all united and combined together in all and every one of those severall congregations , by the bond of an holy covenant or covenants ; as that of Baptisme , and breaking of bread , those sealing Ordinances ; and they had the preaching of the Word and prayer amongst them , in all which Ordinances every one of those severall congregations did daily partake with the Fellowship of the Apostles , all which in these our dayes are thought sufficient by those of the congregationall way to make any of their Assemblies a true and compleat formed Church , and a Church properly so called : so that wheresoever according to their owne Doctrine and Principles , they inioy all these Ordinances in their severall meeting houses with a Pastor and Doctor , and an Elder or two and a Deacon , and three or foure good women , and as many men , every one of these severall Congregations challenge unto themselves ( though they consist but of ten or twelve ) the name of a formall and compleate Church properly so called , and doe conclude , that they are so many Churches properly so called , in all which they affirme and no where else that Christ is set up as King upon his Throne . And therefore if all the severall Congregations of the Independents considered by themselves respectively & apart , may properly in their opinion be called churches , and that for the injoying but some of the above mentioned Ordinances and Priviledges , that all those severall Congregations in the Church of Ierusalem did compleatly partake in , then all good reason will conclude that all these severall Assemblies in Jerusalem respectively and severally considered were compleate churches properly so called ; and that ( as I said before ) with a great deale more and better reason by how much it is certaine that those congregations and severall assemblies of Beleevers in the Church of Jerusalem had both for Matter and Forme and all other requisits , whatsoever in these our dayes can make a compleate Church or Churches properly so called . And this that I have now said for the confirmation of the Major Proposition of my Argument may suffice , it being grounded upon the Independents owne Principles and Doctrine , so that I shall not need any more Reasons for the corroborating of the truth of the same . As for my Minor Proposition , they that shall reade but the first six Chapters of the Acts , and the 18. of Matt. and the 28. of the same Booke , and the sixteenth and twentieth of Saint Iohns Gospel shall find it sufficiently confirmed ; yea , my Brother Burton denys not , that there were many congregations in Ierusalem . So that now , I hope every judicious and intelligible Reader from all the forgoing Discourse will see , that I have proved what I undertook , viz. that there were not only several Congregations and assemblies of Beleevers in the Church of Jerusalem ( which all the Independents , saving my Brother Burton deny ) but that all those severall congregations and assemblies , severally and respectively considered were Churches properly so called ( which my Brother Burton thought a thing impossible to be evinced ) and that all those congregations and Assemblies notwithstanding made but one Church , and were all of them under one Presbyterie governed communi consilio Presbyterorum , which my Brother Burton & all the Independents do acknowledge ; and therfore of necessity it must follow there was in Ierusalem a subordination or combining of many Churches ; all which neverthelesse were called but one Church , as being under one government , as the Churches at this day of Geneva , Bazill , and of the other reformed Cantons , all the which consisting of many congregations or churches properly so called , being united and combined together and subordinate , make up but one Church in their severall Precincts , after the example of the Church at Jerusalem , and the other Primitive and purest Churches , the government of all the which was left as a patterne of imitation to all succeeding 〈◊〉 to the end of the world , to teach them to unite and combine themselves ▪ ther for the better and more orderly governing & regulating of them . And it is very fit , that as the Mother Churches , and those the most purest ones , were ruled and ordered , so should all the Daughter Churches be moderated and regulated in all following Generations to the full consummation of all things : yea , all reason will perswade any intelligible man , that a Councel or colledge of grave Divines and experienced men , and men of Knowledge , Learning , and Integrity , should know a great deale better how to governe , then a few giddy headed , witlesse and worthlesse men , & women , which most of the new Congregations consist of . Now in all the Primitive and Apostolicall Churches wee find this kind of government , as in the seven Churches of Asia , the which consisted of many and severall Congregations in their severall Precincts , and yet made but one Church in their particular Jurisdictions , and all those my Brother Burton speaks of , and which hee brings in for the making up of a compleate paterne of Church government , were so governed communi consilio Presbyterorum , as that of Ephesus , as I shall by and by briefly prove , after I have answered to what my Brother Burton hath yet to say in this busines , to whose words if any credit may be given , then the Church of Ierusalem it selfe which hee cals the first formed Church , was not a perfect formed Church ; for hee accuseth that of imperfection , and not that only , but all the other Primitive and Apostolicall Churches , saying that they were not compleate within themselves ; so that to make up a compleate patterne of a true constituted Church , we must borrow something from each of them ; and he affirmes , that there is the same relation betweene church and churches , that is betweene the Members of the body , every one having need of the other ; so that of necessity by this his doctrine they were all dependent , by the which he doth oppose all his brethren of the congregationall way , who hold and labour to maintaine not the perfection onely of every one of the Primitive churches within themselves ; but the parity likewise of them , and the equall authority ; and affirme that they were all Independent ; which opinion of theirs , my Brother Burton overthrowes , making them all Dependent . But let us heare himselfe speake . Secondly , ( saith hee ) it being no more then one entire particular Church , and not any Diocesan , or Provinciall Church , or the Presbytery thereof classicall , as you would beare us in hand it is a paterne to all particular Churches in succeeding ages ; and yet ( by your favour ) not so perfect , as no Apostolick churches besides it should also come in , to make up the patern compleat ; for wee must necessarily take all the Churches , &c. as you may see at large in his words before quoted . I desire the Reader here in the second part of his answer , to take notice of his expressions ; where , First , there is Petitio principii , an ordinary Error amongst sophisticall dealing men : hee begs the question , denying the Presbytery of the church at Ierusalem to be classicall , which notwithstanding the Scripture sufficiently evinceth , as hath beene abundantly proved , viz. that the church of Ierusalem consisted of many congregations , and notwithstanding it was governed by the joynt consent and common counsell of many Presbyters , to both which he accordeth , and yet as if nothing had beene granted by himself , or said by me , to prove it , hee grollishly denieth it . Secondly , I shall intreat the Reader to observe , how he doth not onely contradict himselfe , but oppose all his brethren of the congregationall way : for they all acknowledge , That the church at Jerusalem , and the government of that , was to be a paterne of Government to all churches insucceeding times , as being a most perfect paterne , and the Mother church , in imitation of the which Government as they pretend , they mould up all their particular congregationall churches ; saying , that as the church at Jerusalem had an absolute power within it selfe , and was not dependent upon any other churches , as being compleate within it selfe , so ought every church in like manner , after the example of that church , to exercise all authority within it selfe , and not have dependency on any other ; for in all particulars they avow , the church of Ierusalem was a perfect formed church , and the same they assert of all the Primitive and Apostolicall churches . This I say is the Doctrine of all the Idependents besides himselfe , that I ever have read or talked with ; yea , my Brother Burton , in the beginning of his Answer to his owne Argument , saith , that the first formed Church we finde , is in the second of the Acts. Then if it was a formed Church ( as hee confesseth ) & then there was nothing wanting unto it ; so that of necessity it must be a compleate and perfect church ; for that that is deficient and deformed , that cannot bee said to be perfect and compleate and a formed church ; now if it were a formed church , as he above said , then it was a perfect and an entire church , as all rationall men will easily and readily gather . And yet notwithstanding here he affirmeth that it was not a perfect paterne ; and therefore ( saith he ) for the making up of a compleate paterne of church government , all the other Apostolicall churches besides it must come in . By which words of his , I maintaine , hee does not only oppose all those of his owne party , who all hold the contrary , but contradicts himselfe . But let us heare himselfe speake : of necessity ( saith hee ) we are to take all the churches of the New Testament together , to make up one entire and perfect Church patern . For in the Church of Jerusalem , we find Election of Officers , but we find not expressed that part of Discipline for casting out of corrupt Members , as in the Church of Corinth , and so in the rest . For the Churches were not brought forth to full perfection in one day . Their very constitution had a graduall growth . The Church of Jerusalem had not Deacons at first till there was necessity . The summe is , to make up a compleat patern , not only the Church of Jerusalem , but that of Corinth , of Ephesus , those of Galatia , and Philippi and the rest are to be conferred together , that each may cast in its shot , to make up the full reckoning , so that what is not exprest in the one , may be supplied by the rest , to make up one Entire Platform . For the Scripture consists of many Books , as so many Members in one body , one Member cannot say to an other I have no need of thee , 1 Corinth . 12. &c. Thus my brother Burton confuteth all his brethren , who in all their writings with an unanimous consent hold , that the church of Jerusalem and all the other Apostolicke churches were prefect formed churches , and absolute within themselves and Independent : where as he blames them all of imperfection , and sayes , They must all be conferred together to make up an entire platforme , which if it be not an opposing of them all and a contradicting of himselfe , I referre to the Iudgement of the learned ! For he in the beginning of his answer said , The first formed church we met with was that in the 2. of the Acts , and yet he here accuseth it of imperfection and faylings and therefore not formed : for at that time saith he it wanted Deacons , and we finde not expressed that part of Discipline for casting out of corrupt members at any time , as in the church of Corinth and the rest : So that by his Doctrine here was a great defect and fayling in the Church at Ierusalem , and therefore it was not a church properly so called ; for every church properly so called , according to his learning , must have not only a good Discipline but Distinct Officers and Members united into one church body respectively : for these are his formall words page 11. Now a church according to their discription truly formed and properly so called , is when it hath a particular Pastor , and Teacher or Doctor and two to three Elders , and a Deacon with ten or eleven good men and women , with an explicite particular Covenant ; now I shall desire my brother Burton in his reply to send me word which of all the Ministers that were there at that time was the peculiar-Pastor of this formed church , and which of them was the Teacher or Doctor or who were their Elders and who were their Deacons for the distinction of Officers and Members united into one church body respectively , is that that makes up a formed church properly so called in their Dialect ; and therfore if he cannot make all that I require of him clearly appeare , then he can never prove either the church at Ierusalem , or any of the primitive and Apostolicall churches , churches properly so called ; for we reade not in all the holy Scripture , that any church had a particular Pastor and Doctor peculiar to it self , or but two Elders and a Deacon , with a small company of men and women : or any particular Covenant ; but we reade that in all the churches there were mighty multitudes of believers and many Deacons , and that they had many Presbyters set over them and church Officers to governe them in common , and nothing in particular of that distinction of Officers and Members united into one church body respectively , with any such Covenant which he and all the Independents say make a church properly so called : and without which in their Language it cannot be adistinct and formall church properly so called : from which I do with very good reason conclude and that from the new light I have from my brother Burton , that either the church at Ierusalem , and all the other primitive churches were not churches properly so called or well formed churches according to the new-testament forme , which were impious either to thinke or say ; or if they were , that then there may at this day be compleat churches properly so called although they have not distinct Officers and Members , united into one church body respectively , but serve their flocks and congregations in common . So that all the bable of my brother Burton and his brethren of the congregationall way , is but wickedly and unchristianly to abuse the world and to delude poore people when they demande such things of their brethren as essentially necessary for the constituting of a church properly so called as God never required at his peoples hands , and of which there is neither precept nor president in all the holy Scriptures : for this distinction of Officers they call for in all churches , and many other things they rigidly exact of us for the compleating and forming of a church after the New-Testament forme , were not in the church of Ierusalem , the mother church , and yet it was by my brother Burtons confession the first formed church and that in the judgment of all the Independents besides himselfe , a perfect church at that time . But because he requres of me to shew him distinct Officers and Members , united into one body respectively in all the severall congregations in the church at Ierusalem , without which he affirmeth they were no formed churches properly so called ; I desire of him likewise that he would shew me that distinction of Officers and Members in that whole church that he demands of me in its parts , without the performing of the which all that he hath written is nothing ; and he must of necessity grant that the church at Jerusalem was not a church properly so called , if that distinction I say of Officers and Members be essentiall to the compleating of a church or churches . For he confesseth at that time he calls it a formed church , they had no Deacons , and all the Independents that ever I have seene or talked with , say they reade of no Elders in the church at Ierusalem till the 12. of the Acts which was a long time after the first forming of this church : and we reade not at any time of any particular Pastor or of any Doctor or Teacher ioyned with that Pastor as is usually in the churches of the Congregationall way , but that upon all occasions all the people applyed themselves to all the Apostles , and and said Men and brethren what shall we doe ? and that they continued in the Doctrine and fellowship of all the Apostles and that all things were transacted by the common Counsell of all the Apostles , and that they all laid their hands in the Ordination of the Deacons upon each of them ; we heare nothing I say of any particular Pastor or Teacher or of any Elders all this while ; and yet by my brother Burtons Doctrine it was a formed church then , and we neither heare nor reade also any thing of an explicit particular Covenant which the Independents call the forme of a church , neither doe we reade of many things they now rigidly require of all such ●s desire to be Members of their new Congregations practised in that Church . I shall therefore cordially desire of my brother Burton , seeing the underwriters his tributaries have given him leave ( as he saith in his Truth shut out of doores ) that he should baulke no truth he shall meet with in the plowing up of the Scripture , but should Preach every truth , I say he having obtained this Christian liberty of his Benefactors , and truth being now no more in prison , that he would candidly and plainly without any reserve Do●e● ad triarios redieritres , tell me the next time I heare from him ▪ who was the particular pastor in the church at Ierusalem , who was their particular Doctor or Teacher , who were their Elders , who were their Deacons : seeing my brother Burton denieth any congregation to be a church properly so called if it have not its distinct Officers and Members united into one church body respectively ; for these are his words ; therefore I put him upon this to prove , and without proving it all that he hath hitherto writ both in this book and in his vindication will all prove but waste paper to use his own language . I am confident he will not say that Iames or Peter were their Pastor or Teacher , or that any of the Apostles were the Pastor or Teacher of that particular church : for they were the Universall Pastors of the visible Catholicke church , and were extraordinarily sent into all the world as the Scripture recordeth : therefore they could not be either the particular Pastors or Teachers of that church : for as the Independents teach they must be fixt and should not leave their charge and Flocks ; neither can my Brother Burton tell which were their Elders ; for the Independents say they reade of none in the church at Ierusalem till the twelfth of the Acts : and therefore according to their doctrine they then had none : and it seemes to be my brother Burtons opinion ; ●or he ●aith the Church at Jerusalem wanted that part of discipline of casting out of corrupt Members , which if they had had Elders , they could not have wanted : and for Deacons , my brother Burton acknowledgeth that at that time he calleth it a formed Church , they had none : So that by this I have now said I beleeve it will be a difficult , if not an impossible thing either for him or any of his fraternity to shew me that distinction of Officers and Members in the whole Church at Ierusalem which he requires I should shew him in the several branches & congregations ; without the which notwithstanding according to his learning it cannot be a Church properly so called , and so then the church at Ierusalē it self was no church properly so called . Therefore when he is at plow again ( as now I understand he is ) I desire him that he would furrow up this truth unto me , and shew me that distinction of Officers and Members ; withall , I desire to be resolved how he comes to make this distinction of Officers and Members , united into one church body respectively , to be the forme of a Church , when his brethren of the congregationall way make an explicite particular covenant to be the forme of a Church , and the Members and Officers to be the materials onely of a Church ; All these truths I desire and that earnestly , that my brother Burton at his next going to plow he would lay open and discover unto mee , and then I will conclude of him that he is a singular tiller and a very good husbandman in Christs field his Church , or otherwise hee will never be fit either to make a compleat Independent Country courtier , or an absolute Independent Gentleman , but he shall be a Haberdasher in the small wares of Independency , and with those I perswade my selfe he will be best able to trade with . But in the mean time till I heare from him I will affirme that if it be true he saith , That the Church of Jerusalem wanted Deacons and Church discipline and an explicite particular covenant and many other good things they require of us for the compleating of a church or churches properly so called , then that Church was not perfect and compleat , and yet we read not that the Saints of those times made any separation from their publike Assemblies and Congregations though they wanted Officers and Discipline and many other things required now by them , so that we may learn from those primitive and holy Christians that we ought not to forsake the publike Assemblies of the Saints for want of some part of Discipline , or for want of some Officers , or for want of many things they now exact of all Christians for the compleating and moulding of them into Church bodies pro perly so called : for we read , That in the Church of Jerusalem they were perfectly converted and were Saints indeed , and yet that for some wants they made no separation , rent or schisme from their brethren , but that they dayly met together in their publick Assemblies , as in the Temple and in Solomons Porch , and from house to house openly and that in all love and charity with one accord ; And yet if my brother Burton and the Independents may be beleeved , they had neither Deacons , nor Elders , nor distinction of Officers , nor a great part of Discipline nor many other of their requisites : So that from the pious and godly example of those glorious Saints , I learn this lesson , That rents and scismes are not to be made amongst brethren for some failings in any Churches , yea though there be some defects not onely in Officers and Members , but a very want of Officers themselves and of a good Discipline also in any Church or Churches : and that they that do make rents and divisions have a great deal to answer for . Withall I learn that it may be a true Church though there be a failing in Discipline and a want of some chiefe Officers and Members : For my brother Burton acknowledgeth , That the Church at Jerusalem was a formed Church , although it wanted both Officers and Discipline , and all those things they now require of all such as desire to be made Members in their new Congregations . And therefore if this he now preacheth be solid and orthodox Divinity , and if he may be credited in what he writeth , as there was at that time no just ground of separation from their publike Assemblies for want of those things , so there is now in these our dayes no just cause of separation from our Assemblies ; if there be indeed a reall want of discipline and Church Officers , which we might long since have injoyed had not he and his brethren hindred our happy begun Reformation . Especially I say we ought not to separate when there is no failing or want in any dominative or fundamentall pointe of Religion necessary to salvation , and where all the counsell of God requisite to eternall happinesse is dayly publikely taught in every one of our Congregations and Churches , all which the Independents themselves do acknowledge we want not . Besides it is granted by all orthodox Divines , that Discipline makes not for the esse but the bene esse of a Church : Yea the Independents themselves hold , That Officers in a Church make not for the esse , but the bene esse of it , as the New Lights from the Summer Islands apparently delucidate : For they say , Though the Officers all dye , yet the Church ceaseth not to be a church . But to return to the matter in hand : Whereas my brother Burton affirmeth that the Church at Jerusalem wanted Discipline and that it had not Deacons at first , and that the Churches were not brought forth to full perfection in one day , and that their very constitution had a graduall growth , I maintain that in all he asserteth , he is not onely exceeding erroneous and ignorant , but understandeth not the very doctrine of the Independents , who are all against him in those his assertions ; for they all acknowledg and in express words affirm it in their writings that all the Officers of the church were virtually in the Apostles , saying they were Pastors , Teachers , ruling Elders and Deacons , &c. And therefore they wanted neither Deacons nor Elders ( if their concession be true ) nor any church Officers , which is point blank against my brother Burton his opinion . They confesse likewise that all the Apostles and every one of them , had the Keyes of the Kingdome of Heaven , that is , the power of order and jurisdiction , viz : the key of knowledg and authority : And therefore they had also in the church of Jerusalem that part of Discipline of casting out corrupt Members . They acknowledge in like manner that all the Apostles had equall power amongst themselves , and that they had authority over all the churches as having the care of all the churches who were committed to their charge , and that they left both the Presbyters and people in their several churches to the exercise of all their particular rights , & impeached neither of them of their liberties . And they do also confess that as Paul by his own authority did excommunicate Hymeneus and Alexander . 1 Tim. 1. ver . 20. and others : so might the other Apostles have done , if they had had the like occasion given them , and might have put any church , not only in mind of their duty and reproved them for their neglect of Discipline , but have injoyned and commanded them also to have put it in execution , as both Paul did the church of Corinth , and Saint John the seven churches of Asia : which were all well constituted , and well and perfect formed churches , by their first constitution and brought forth to full perfection in one day , so as they had no need of a graduall growth as my brother Burton affirmeth . All these things I say , the Independents do accord unto . And all reason will perswade any well grounded Christians , That the church of Corinth was a perfect church at its first constitution before the incestuous person appeared in it ; and the same they will say of the other seven churches in ▪ Asia , before the doctrine of the Nicolai●tans and that of Baalam and Jezabell sprung up in them , and before those luke-warme Laodiceans appeared and all the other offenders there spake of ; all the which were so far from adding any perfection to those churches , as it was a deformity to them all , to have such creatures and failings amongst them , and it was reputed their great sinne to connive at them and suffer them to be amongst them and in their bowels , which by their first constitution they had power to have cast out : For it is well known that all those churches at their first plantation and founding had all of them their Presbyters and Elders and all other Members and Officers as consisting of Saints , and had in all those severall churches both the power of order and jurisdiction and the power of the Keyes ; and this in their first constitution ; and therefore had no neede of a graduall growth but were all brought forth to full perfection the first day contrary to my brother Burtons doctrine . And it is confessed likewise by the Independents and by my brother Burton himselfe , That where there are Church Officers as a Pastor and Teacher with an Elder or two and a Deacon , and where there are a few visible Saints if they amount but to the number of twenty , nay if they be but ten or twelve gathered together according to their method , that there is a compleat formed Church where Christ is set up as King upon his Throne , and that this Church is clothed with Christs power and honoured with his presence , the which likewise wanteth nothing for matter and forme , but hath plenary authority within it selfe ; and therefore is as compleat a Church within it selfe as any church in the world ; by all which it must necessarily follow and that upon their own principles , that it is brought forth in perfection in one day and hath no neede of a graduall growth . Now I shall never beleevethat those glorious churches founded by the holy Apostles in every city in the which they had their Elders and Presbyters and all other Officers appointed them , the which churches also consisted of visible Saints , that they were not at their first constitution as compleat churches , and in the which Christ was not as well set up upon his Throne , as any of our new gathered churches of the congregationall way . Yea it were an impiety to think that the blessed Apostles did not know how to gather churches and how to set up Christ upon his Throne in them , and how to bring them to perfection in one day at their first constitution as well as our brethren the Independents , who notwithstanding do all proclame they but imitate the Apostles , both in the gathering and constituting of their new churches . And therefore if the Independent congregations , are all compleated at their first founding and constitution , and be all compleat within themselves , as having plenary authority and power within themselves , much more had all the Apostolicall and Primitive Churches absolute jurisdiction within themselvs at their first constitution , which is yet more manifest from the reproofe given to the Church of Corinth by S. Paul who blameth them for not casting out the incestuous person ; and from the reproof given to some of the 7 churches of Asia by Christ himself : For otherwise they if they had not bin perfect and compleat at their first constitution , might have replyed and answered , That they had no power to cast out corrupt Members , and that their churches were not compleatly moulded up at their first founding , and that they wanted that part of Discipline ; but none of these churches pretended any such thing , neither could they ; for Saint Paul had given the church of Ephesus by name a caveat to take heed of Wolves , that would rise up among them after his departure , and had armed them likewise with power and authority for the casting of them out , as it is at large to be seen in the twentieth of the Acts ; and that church executed its power in finding out of false Teachers , and is praised for it , though the other are blamed . So that the neglect of this their duty , and not executing of their Discipline was that that was found fault with in them , and that they had not exercised that power that was given them in casting out of those corrupt Members from amongst them . This I say was their failing , and for this were they blamed ; so that it was not for want of Discipline or that they were not perfect at their first constitution , but their negligence and their not doing their duty was their sinne . Neither was the Church of Ierusalem inferior to any other church in power , or wanted that part of Discipline of casting out corrupt Members , as my Brother ▪ Burton boldly , and without all reason affirmeth : for it is well knowne , that the church at Ierusalem had power of life and death , as wee may see in the storie of Ananias , and Saphira , his wife , the which if it could take away the very life of offendors , as it did theirs for lying to the Spirit of God , then it had power to cast out any corrupt Members , and scandalous persons , if they had had any amongst them , as all reason will dictate to any well grounded Christian . But that wee reade not of any excommunicated in the Church at Ierusalem , it was not for any want of Discipline , or power in that Church of casting out offenders , but because there was no open Delinquents and scandalous persons ; for they were all zealous of the Law ( as it is well knowne ) and would suffer none in the least to transgresse it without questioning them ; nay , if they conceived but an offence in the Apostles themselves , they would call them to an account , as wee may see Acts the ●1 . where they questioned Peter for going in to the Gentiles ; and it is conceived by learned and judicious Christians , that the punishment also that was inflicted upon Ananias and Saphira , strucke so great a terrour of offending into all the Ghurch , ( as it is in expresse words declared ) that they durst not in publike be vitious ; and therfore that made them all afraid of publike open and scandall ; withall it is recorded that they were all true Beleevers , and Saints in the Church of Ierusalem , and that they continued stedfastly in the Apostles Doctrine , and Fellowship , and in breaking of bread , and prayer , and were all true converts and Saints indeed ; now no church useth to cast out Saints , and men of a holy and unblameable conversation , and such as persevere in goodnesse , and doe their duty , but the wicked and scandalous , which when there was none in the church at Ierusalem , there was no need of excommunication , or at least they had no occasion of exercising that part of discipline at that time . For discipline in any church is as Magistracy in a Common-wealth or Kingdome , which is not a terrour to the good , but to the wicked , as Saint Paul speaketh Rom. the 13. it is a comfort to well doers and as , the Magistrate useth the sword onely against Offendors and Delinquents ; so the Officers of the Church exercise that part of Discipline only in casting out corrupt and scandalous Members , ( which is solely to bee put in execution against them : ) and therefore that wee reade not of excommunication in the Church at Ierusalem , it was not for want of that part of Discipline , but because there were no publick and scandalous persons there , as in the church of Corinth . Besides , all men know that Discipline is one thing , and the execution of discipline is an other , and is but the result and effect of discipline , as the church is one thing , and the Administration of the Sacraments is another : Power and Authority in a court , whether ecclesiasticall or civill , is one thing , and the execution of the power of that court is an other : and as the execution of its authority makes it not a court , nor giveth not the power to it , but declareth it to be a court invested with authority ; as in the Parliament the great and supreme court of this Kingdome , the cutting off of Strafford and the Prelates heads gave not power to the Parliament , but declared the power they had by their first constitution : for they were a court before , and had the power of execution before , but upon this occasion they exercised it : but will any man say , if they had not at this time exercised their authority as they have not done for these many years before , that the great court had wanted that part of Discipline ? all men that should attempt to say that great councell wanted that part of Discipline , I beeleeve they would exercise some more of their authority to teach such an one better manners or more wit. Even so it was in the Church at Ierusalem , they had discipline in that Church , though wee reade not of the putting of it in execution , as we do in the Church of Corinth , and Ephesus , neither wil any rationall man conclude , that all the other Primitive Churches wanted that part of discipline ; because I say wee reade onely of the execution of it in the church of Corinth , and that of Ephesus , which is commended for it , and some of the other seven churches are blamed for not casting out their corrupt Members , and because they had not at that time exercised their authority , neither reade wee of it in the churches of Galatia , Colosse , nor amongst the Thessalonians , nor in the church of Rome , nor Antioch , nor in Samaria : will any man therefore say that all these churches wanted that part of Discipline , because wee reade nothing of it in them ? I am confident they will not be so fanaticall , as to make such a conclusion from so brainsick a premise : much lesse will any intelligible christian argue as my Brother Burton does , saying , wee reade not of that part of Discipline in the church at Ierusalem , of casting out corrupt Members , Ergo , it had it not : this would indeed prove a non sequitur , and such a consequenct or conclusion could least of all have been made from the Church at Ierusalem upon such an Antecedent , then from any of the other churches , because the church at Ierusalem had not only the power of the Keyes within it selfe , but a legislative power also , who gave Lawes to all other churches , both for the ordering and ruling of them , and for the exercising of their Discipline in every particular , and that by Gods appointment ; for out of Sion shall goe forth the Law ( saith the Prophet ) Isa . 23. and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem . So that the Church at Ierusalem the Mother church gave power to all the daughter churches , and that both the power of Order and Jurisdiction ; the power was radically in it , and in that church was the fountain of all authority , the streames of the which flowed to all the other churches of the world : For out of Zion shal go forth the Law , and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem . And can any rationall man thinke it gave away all its power , and did not keepe a reserve ▪ donec ad triarios redierit res ? I beleeve that all the Independents will much blame my brother Burton for this his rashnesse , in affirming the church at Ierusalem wanted that part of Discipline for casting out corrupt Members , when the Apostles themselves had all power in their hands bequeathed unto them by Christ himselfe , who said , Mat. 28. verse 18. 19. All power is given to mee in Heaven and Earth , goe yee therefore and teach all Nations , &c. and Iohn the 20. verse 21 , 22 , 23. as my Father hath sent mee , even so send I you ; and when hee had said this , hee breathed on them , and saith unto them , receive yee the Holy Ghost ; whose soever sinnes ye remit , they are remitted unto them , and whose soever sins yee retaine they are retained : Loe ! here was plenary authority given unto all the Apostles , who as they had the Keyes promised them in the sixteenth of Matthew , here they now received them , and therefore they had the power in their hands , both of order and jurisdiction , which the Keyes imported , as all the learned know , and the very Independents doe not deny ; now this power was not onely given unto them , but unto all faithfull Ministers their successors , to whom Christ made a promise as well as to the Apostles , Matth. 28. that hee would be with them to the end of the world ; neither doe wee ever reade that the Apostles and Ministers in the church of Ierusalem did ever relinquish their power , and therefore they wanted not that part of Discipline , as my Brother Burton grollishly affirmeth , who begins now to doubt , when hee begins to dote ; but if there had been any just occasion , without all controversie , they would have put it in execution ; but that church consisting of visible Saints , and having no scandalous persons amongst them , had no occasion of the exercise of that part of Discipline : which they wanted not though they exercised it not ; for it is to be believed that the Apostles would have discharged their duty in punishing offendors if there had beene any . And I believe that the Independents would blame any of their Schollers and Members if they should say their new congregated churches wanted that part of Discipline of casting out of corrupt Members , though they have not as yet in some of them put it in execution : for they have learned to distinguish between the power of a Church and the execution of that power in a church : for as it doth not argue that a Court of Justice hath not power of life and death when notwithstanding it is invested with the Authority of hanging and drawing , though perhaps after it is erected they either have no occasion of executing that authority that is given , or them out of Clemency will for a time shew mercy and use lenity towards offendors , not taking the extremity of the Law the more with humanity and kindnesse to reclaime them ; even so in all well constituted Churches the not executing of the power given them by Christ , or the not having just occasion of putting that power in execution , doth not prove a want of that power : and if any of the Members of the new congregations should so argue , against their new church Officers , I believe they would soone make use of their Keyes to shut such a Member out of their Church doores , as my brother Burton falsly complaines that Truth was lately shut out of Aldermanbury Church doores . And truly if one of their whibbling congregations have no want of that part of Discipline , though they execute it not : shall any man be so temerarious and unadvised as to thinke that the power of the church , in Ierusalem was evacuated or enervated , or that they had not that part of Discipline , when there was greater power in it then in any church in the world , all who had all the Apostles amongst them and as Christs and Iohn Disciples , all of them armed with the Keyes of the Kingdome of Heaven , and when the Magazine and treasury of all power resided continually in that church , and therefore that part of Discipline , when all other churches derived their power , authority and jurisdiction from that as the mother church . And to this I now say , I am most assured all judicious men will easily consent and agree . And therefore my brother Burton affirming that the church at Ierusalem wanted that part of discipline of casting out of corrupt Members , saying , That neither the Church at Ierusalem was a perfect patterne , nor none of the Primitive churches were compleat within themselves , but that they must all of them necessarily be conferred together for the making up of a compleat paterne ; so that every one of them was to bring in its shot to make up the full reckoning , that so what is not expressed in the one may be supplied by the rest to make up a compleat platforme . These are his formall words , adding with all , That as the Scripture consists of many bookes , and the body of many members , and one Member cannot say to the other I have no need of thee 1 Cor. 11. So it was amongst the Apostolicall churches they had all need one of another . I say my brother Burton in his thus speaking , is not only against the opinion of all the Independents ( for the which , I am assured th●● will sharply reprove him ) but Volens Nolens concludes , that all the Primitive churches were necessarily dependent one upon another as the severall Members are in one body , which is that that all those of his party peremptorily deny , though indeede it be an Evangelicall truth , as I shall god willing abundantly prove in examining the government of all those churches my brother Burton enumerateth , as that of Corinth , Phililppi , those of Galatia and the rest , with that of Ephesus , all which he brings in for making up of his compleat paterne and all the which I will take notice of though he and his Schollers will take no notice of my indefinite enumeration , of those that were baptized by Iohn the Baptist and Christs Disciples to be formed into a Church or churches . I say although he will take no notice of my enumeration , I will take notice of those churches he enumerateth , and prove them all Classicall and dependent upon their severall Presbyteries , and that there was not an Independent church such as they describe unto us in the world in the Apostles time nor before our dayes , nor never such a whimsie taken notice of before this doting age of the world . I shall also take notice of his words for matter of comfort to us poore Presbyterians who the Independents tearme at every word an Antichristian brood , who may not think it much nor be offended with it , but rather rejoyce when they accuse our churches not to be well formed churches after the new testament forme , and when they say that our churches are not perfect churches and churches properly so called : for here my brother Burton a Master illdependent , censureth and judgeth not onely the congregations in the church at Ierusalem to be no churches properly so called , but the whole church of Jerusalem it selfe for want of a great part of Discipline and for want of Officers , and blameth all other Churches , accusing them likewise of faylings and imperfections , saying , that they must be all conferred together for the making up a compleat platforme , which is in plaine English to say they were all defective and not compleate and formed churches , which indeede is a horrid peece of blasphemy and deserves condigne punishment from all those of his party . And truly as it is a matter of wonder to see when men once desert and forsake the truth , what errors out of pride and giddinesse they soone f●ll into , so it may exceedingly rejoyce and comfort us , that in all their aspersing of us and daily calumniating our Churches for some faylings and imperfections as they conceive , and in their denying of them to be true formed churches ; for in this we are like sufferers with all the Primitive and Apostolicke churches , all the which my Brother Burton accuseth of imperfection and for faylings , so that if he will censure them , it is no wonder they not only condemne all our churches for Antichristian and not well formed Churches , but separate from them as from so many Synagogues of Satan , for so they tearme our Assemblies : But now to take notice of my brother Burtons enumeration . The sum of all ( saith he ) to make up a compleat paterne , not onely the Church at Jerusalem , but that of Corinth , and those also of Galitia and that of Philippi , Ephesus and the rest are to be conferred together to make up one entire platforme . Thus he ▪ Now then if it can be proved that all these Churches my brother Burton enumerates , as that of Corinth , Philippi , those of Galatia , of Ephesus and the rest , did consist of many and severall congregations within their severall Precincts , and yet were all of them governed by the Common Councell of their severall Presbyteries , and all of them notwithstanding made but one Church i● their severall jurisdictions , and that all those Churches I say were Classically governed , and were all dependent upon their severall Presbyters , as being subordinate to them , and likewise subject to the Synodicall Decrees at Ierusalem ; then it will follow , that all churches in succeeding ages to the end of the world are to be so governd : for all these churches make up an entire and compleat paterne or platforme of governing all churches for future ages , as my brother Burton granteth . I shall therefore desire the reader ( it being a businesse of so great importance ) to give me leave , as I proved the Church of Ierusalem to consist of many Congregations or Churches which my brother Burton calls branches of that Church , therefore necessarily depending upon the stock : So now briefly to evince , that all those Churches my brother Burton enumerats consisted likewise of many Congregations and were all Classically governed . And then I will also prove , that according to the Independents definition of a Church , their very Congregationall Churches and Assemblies are not true Churches properly so called , and withall I shall make good by Gods assistance and that from their own Principles , that they are Dependent , All which I will doe in order . And first I will begin with the Church of Samaria which is one of the rest my Brother Burton saieth must be taken in for the making up a compleat platforme . This City of Samaria was the Regall City and the Palace or Chamber of the Kings of Israell , and was one of the greatest Cities then in the world , and next to Ierusalem the famousest in all Palestine and one of the greatest in all Canaan for extent , and it must needs be a great one that could entertaine the whose Assyrian army at one time , and it was exceeding populous , as all the stories of the Kings and Chronicles witnesse , in the which we know there was a true Church in Christs time and that planted by Christ himselfe , as we may see in the 4 of Iohn where we reade that our Saviour converted not onely the woman of Samaria but many more who were made beleevers by his Ministry , as they themselves acknowledge and testifie ; and to this Church were many thousands added by the preaching and miracles of Philip : for it is said of them Acts the 8. vers . 6. 10. 12. 14. that all those that had bin seduced by that Jugler Simon Magus , which were in no small numbers , every one of them being undeceived by the preaching and wonders of Philip , now believed and were baptized , so that there was a mighty company : for it is related that the people of the City with one accorde from the greatest to the least , both men and women believed and were baptized . Now if any man shall duly consider and weigh things , this City was no contemptible one , as appears from that I said before ; and yet it is asserted by the holy Ghost who is worthy to be believed and credited that all the people of that City from the greatest to the least both men and women believed and were baptized : and therfore they could not all meet in any one place or a few , neither was any one Pastor able to Teach them all , which appeareth in that the Church of Ierusalem at first sent two of the chiefest Apostles Peter and Iohn to Samaria , so that all this shews there was an innumerable company of believers in that City , all which could not meete in any one or a few places as all reason will easily perswade . Besides , the Apostles , Evangelists and the Ministers of those times had an other manner of converting faculty , then the Independents in our dayes , who I never yet heard converted any , though they have perverted and seduced many . For the Apostles and Evangelists and the primitive Ministers there , were immediatly sent of God , and inspired with the holy Ghost and spake in all Languages , and did Miracles such as none could doe but those that came from God , as Nicodemus said unto Christ , that none could doe such works and miracles as he did except God were with him , Iohn 3. 2. for they cured all manner of diseases with their word and shaddow , they raised the dead , made the lame to walke , and cast out Devils , and did whatsoever was wonderfull . Withall they Preached unto them the glad tidings of joy and peace and of everlasting happinesse after a miserable life here ; and did also instruct them how to order their wayes and conversations here , so that they might live with honour and dye with comfort , and be usefull to all men both in life and death and after death . And the Apostles , Evangelists and Ministers of those times , as they did good wherever they came , so they lived so holily and unblameably in all manner of conversation , and were men of such integrity , sincerity and of such plaine upright dealing , as the people that beheld their conversation , and saw withall their workes of wonder that they did , said of them , that gods were come downe amongst them in the likenesse of men , so that they converted whole cities and countries wheresoever they came ; yea , it was an ordinary thing with them to bring whole Nations in a short time , and with a few Miracles to the obedience of the faith , as wee may see through the whole Storie of the Acts , and from that of Paul , Rom. the 15. verse 18. 19. where the Apostle abundantly declareth the effect of the Gospel and Miracles of those times , who wrought so powerfully wheresoever they came , even to the converting of whole countries and cities , and so they prevailed in this citie of Samaria , that the people of the same were speedily converted from the greatest to the least , both men and women , who all beleeved and were baptized ; and what rationall man will thinke , or can beleeve , that all the people men and women of a mighty and royall citie , could meet in any place or a few to partake in all acts of worship , but must necessarily be distributed into divers congregations and churches , if they would partake in all ordinances ? and yet all these made up but one Church , as being under one government , that of the Presbyterie ; for there were Presbyters ordained in every Church , and in every citie , as is apparent from Acts the 14. verse 23. and Titus the 1. And now I have proved that the two Mother cities of Palestine , Ierusalem and Samaria consisting of many congregations , were Presbyterially and classically governed : I will goe on to the other cities of the Gentiles enumerated by my brother Burton , and prove that they also consisted of many congregations , and assemblies , and were all subordinate to their severall Presbyteries and Classes . And first I will begin with the citie of Corinth , which was a famous citie , and in the which there was an illustrious church , and therfore in it also there was constituted a Presbytery , that was many Presbyters to governe and rule that Church and those congregations under them : for it is said , Acts the 14. that Paul and Barnabas ordained them Presbyters in every church , and Paul and Barnabas were Ministers in the church of Corinth ; yea , Paul planted this church , and Apollo with Barnabas , and the Presbyters watred it ; and therefore there must necessarily be many congregations and assemblies in that church : For one Pastor or Minister would have beene sufficient for owne flocke , at least a Pastor and a Teacher , or a Doctor would have beene sufficient to have fed one congregation : now in that they had many ordinary Pastors , and many extraordinary Teachers in it , with all good reason it followeth , that there were many assemblies and many congregations in that church , which will yet more abundantly appeare from its first constitution or planting : for wee reade of multitudes , both of Jewes and Gentiles in that Citie that beleeved , Acts the 18. verse 5. 7 , 8. &c. and that besides Iustus , Crispus also and all his houshold , and many Corinthians beleeved , and were baptized , and the Lord also said that hee had many people in that Citie , ver . 10. which by the diligent preaching of Paul for eighteene moneths together were converted , verse 11. for whose further building up in their most holy faith , Paul , Apollos , Timothy , Cephas , and many other extraordinary , & famous Ministers and Teachers , besides their owne Presbyters , were all constantly imployed in season & out of season in preaching the Gospel , and administring the holy Sacraments , and labouring in word and doctrine , 1 Cor. 3 & 4. all the which imports many congregations and assemblies of Beleevers in that Citie . Besides , both the Epistles of Paul to the Corinthians shew that there were multitudes of deceitfull Teachers , Seducers , and false Apostles , which urged the ceremoniall Law , and the observation of it , and they also had their congregations and assemblies : there were also many vaine Instructers and idle Teachers , who though they kept the foundation , yet built upon it wood , hay and stubble : Now all reason will suggest , that Pastors of such severall minds , and teaching such severall & discrepant doctrines had all of them schollers , & followers of the same opinion wherof their several Pastors were , as now we see in the several Sects in our times ; & therefore they did not all meet in one or a few places , except we understand their meetings for the convention of their Officers with a part of the more choyce people for discipline ; besides , as wee have expresse mention of a Church in Aquila , and Priscylla's house , 1 Cor. 16. so there were many other meeting places in Corinth , where the Christians assembled themselves together : for in expresse words there is mention made in that Epistle of churches in the plurall number , 1 Cor. 14. verse 34. Let the women saith the Apostle keepe silence in the Churches : by which it followeth , that in Gods dialect congregation and church are synonima's , and not that onely , but that there were many churches in this church of Corinth , and that they were all but one church , as being so many branches , and depending all upon that stocke , and therefore were all classically governed , and subordinate to one Presbyterie . The same may be concluded of the Church of Philippi , where verse the 1. Paul and Timothy salutes all the Bishops and Deacons , so that in the first entrance of that Epistle wee meet with a colledge of Bishops and Presbyters , for they were all one , and wee meete also with many Deacons ; all which proves to any understanding man that there were many congregations and churches ; for one Deacon would have served for one congrgeation or assembly ; and yet they all made but one church , as being subordinate to one Presbyterie , and governed by their joynt consent and common Counsell ; and that there were multitudes of Beleevers there , it is evident from the variety of Teachers , besides their good and godly Bishops ; for Paul saith , there were dogs amongst them , evill workers , and those of the concision , and he bids the Philippians to beware of those , Chap. 3. verse 2. and there were many other of their Teachers which were worldly men , that minded earthly things , whom hee proclames enemies of the Crosse of Christ , who made their belly their God , as too many of the Independent Ministers now adayes doe , chapter 4. verse 18 , 19. and gives them in command to shun their example , and only to follow his , and such as walked as hee did , whose conversation was in Heaven ; and many such Teachers there were in the Church of Philippi , and such as taught the Gospel out of good will and sincerely ; all which sufficiently prove there were many congregations of Beleevers in this Church ; and that it was yet but one Church , and governed by a classis and colledge of Bishops and Presbyters . And the same may be said of the church of Galatia , where Paul complaines that there were many false teachers amongst them , which hee wisht were rooted out , and cut off or destroyed : so that it followeth , that in that church also , there were many congregations , and they were all governed by the joynt consent & common counsel of a Presbyterie there ; for there were Presbyters ordained in every church , and in every Citie . And now I come to the seven churches of Asia , and that by name my brother Burton speaks of , viz. the church of Ephesus , with which I will conclude , and this was but one church in the singular number , Revel . the 2. of the which Paul called the Elders to him , Acts the 20. verse 17. In the which church there were such infinites of Beleevers , as they could not all possibly meet in any one place or a few ; yea , Paul himselfe declareth as much in expresse words in the 20. chap. verse 20. where hee saith that hee taught them publickly , and from house to house , which in the originall is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which by Master Knollys his learning signifies per singulas domos , and therefore by him acknowledged to be many congregations , as in the forgoing discourse is suffic●ently proved ; and all reason indeed will perswade it , had it not in words beene specified . For Ephesus was a famous citie , and a place of great trafficke , where Paul preached two whole yeares , by whose hands God wrought no small Miracles , so that all they that dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Iesus , both Iews and Gentiles ; and through other wonders that were wrought in that city , it is related that the word of God grew mightily and prevailed , as it is at large ch . 19. set down , so that great multitudes of the very Schollers , and such as studied curious Arts , were also converted , and burnt their Bookes , the price of which amounted to fifty thousand peeces of silver , in so much that feare came upon all the Greekes and Iewes that dwelt in Ephesus , and the name of the Lord Iesus was magnified . And can any man conceive or beleeve , that all the Jewes and Greekes in Ephesus a mighty citie , and a mart Towne , could all meet in any one place together to communicate in all acts of worship , yea ? were it not a madnesse to thinke so , if the very diversitie of their languages and tongues of the people did not disswade it ? for if they would all be edified , they must understand their Ministers preaching unto them , which so many people of severall Languages and dialects could never do by any one ; for it was then a Miracle to have the gift of tongues , which for the most part were conferred upon the Ministers , and Publishers of the Gospel , and upon such as were to be sent from place to place , and from Citie to Citie to convert the Nations , such as were the Apostles , Evangelists and Prophets , all extraordinary men , and very seldome had the ordinary people the gifts of the Holy Ghost conferred upon them , but it was chiefly upon some select and chosen ones , not upon all promiscuously , bu● upon such as the Apostles laid their hands ; for if it had beene upon all , then Simon Magus needed not have offered money to the Apostles for the purchasing of the gifts of the Holy Ghost , if those graces had been promiscuously given ; but without all doubt it was but to some sortsof men for the most part that the gift of tongues was distributed , such as the Apostles made speciall choyce of , for so it appeares , 1 Cor. 12. ver . 10. 11. And therefore when the common people had not the understanding of all languages , they if they would be edified , must have such to preach to them as they could understand , and therefore all the Jewes and Greeks in Ephesus must necessarily have divers places to meet in , if the multitudes of them otherwise had not been so great but that they might have assembled themselves together , and onely that they might be edified . Besides the great multitudes that we read of at the first plantationof this church , the Scripture saith Acts the 20. That for three whole years together Paul taught them night and day as an extraordinary Minister ; they had also Timothy sometime amongst them and other extraordinary teachers and a whole colledge of Bishops and Elders ver . 28. who all had the care of the flock committed to them with a charge that they should feede that church which Christ had redeemed with his blood ; They had a commission likewise given them to oppose all false Teachers , which they faithfully performed , as the Lord beareth them witnesse , Revel . the 2. ver . 2. saying , I know thy workes , and thy labour and thy patience , and how thou canst not beare them which are evill , and thou hast tryed them which say they are Apostles , and are not , and hast found them lyars . By which we learne that the Government of that Church was wholly committed into the hands of the Presbyters , who had the charge for the examination and tryall of the doctrine of all Teachers that came amongst them ; and that they were invested with power likewise and authority of casting them out that were Deceivers and fals Teachers ; and we farther learne that the care of all those severall congregations was committed to all the Bishops and Presbyters of that Church in common ; and although it consisted of many congregations , yet it was but one church , and therefore was classically governed communi consilio Presbyterorum ; and so were all the other six churches of Asia governed , in all and every one of the which there were many congregations and churches of beleevers as is manifest from the manner of Christs concluding his Epistles , sent by the Ministry of Saint John to all those Asian churches Rev. the 2. ver . 7. Let him that hath an eare hear what the spirit saith to the churches : From the which I thus argue . He who maketh the particular or singular church he writeth to , to be a multitude or company of Churches not one onely ( as the body is not one member onely ) he doth make that one church to which hee writeth to in singular or particular , to be a Presbyterian , Classicall , or Collegiate Church : But Christ in his Epiphonemicall conclusion to every Church , which he had spoken to in singular or in particular , doth speak of the same as of a company or multitude of Churches , let him that hath an eare heare what the spirit saith to the Churches : Ergo , One Church hath many Churches in subordination to it , and is classically or collegiately governed communi consilio Presbyterorum . To the which argument the Independents answer by denying of the assumption , saying , that the words may be taken consequentér , as well as antecedentér , with relation to what followes , as well as to what goes before ; and they cite Junius his testimony for the proofe of this their denyall , nothing to the purpose . They produce also Master Bains his authority to as little end . Christ ( saith he ) doth not use the plural number , in respect of the one Church preceding , but in respect of the seven collectively taken , it being his will that the Members of each singular Church should lay to heart both severally and joyntly , whatsoever was spoken to them and to others . This is the Answer , the Author of the New Lights from the Summer Islands in the name of all the Independents makes to this Argument , page 133. And if words may serve for answers , those of the congregationall way will never want Answers and Replyes ; but we look for reasons and not for words in any men that shall deny our arguments : And therefore when he hath no reason for his gainsaying , the argument shall for ever stand in force , to prove many Congregations and many Churches in the Church of Ephesus and in the other six Churches . And truly he granteth the argument whiles he seeme●h to oppose it , saying , that the words may be taken consequenter as well as antecedenter : So that he acknowledgeth the wor●● may be taken antecedenter as well as consequenter , that is , with relation to what goes before , as well as to what follows : viz : both wayes ▪ which is as much as I require and as much as by the argument I laboured to prove . For who ever denyed that when Christ spake to his Apostles bidding them watch , that what he spake to them , he spake to all men ? So who ever yet denyed that when Christ in the conclusion of every one of his Epistles to the Asian Churches , said , Let him that hath an eare hear what the spirit saith to the Churches , that by Churches there , Christ hath as well reference not onely to all the seven churches in Asia , but to all succeeding Churches to the worlds end , that they should by their examples be forewarned lest they likewise offend in the same manner ? For all men know , That whatsoever was written , was written for our instruction upon whom the ends of the world are come : Though primarily , principally and antecedenter he hath reference to all the severall Congregations , Assemblies , or Churches in each of those Churches ; as first to those of Ephesus which is yet called but one Church in the singular number , as the others also , as consisting of many severall companies and severall congregations , yet being all combined together in their severall Precincts and subordinate to each of their Presbyteries , were all collectively taken but for one Church within their particular jurisdictions : and therefore Christ speaks to them all severally in the conclusion of all his Epistles in the number of multitude as to many , though in the beginning of his Epistles he writes to them all as particular and singular Churches , because though each of them consisted of many congregations ( as I said before ) yet they were subordinate to their several Presbyteries and governed by the common counsel of their severall Presbyteries in a classicall way . And there is all reason to convince any man that the word Church in those Epistles should as well be considered collectively , as the word Angell : Now all orthodox writers and the very Independent Ministers themselves hold that by Angell is meant all the Ministers and Presbyters in each of those severall Churches : And therefore if the word Angell in those severall Epistles may or be to be taken and interpreted collectively for many Ministers ; then the word Church also may or is to be taken collectively for many Churches : For those of the congregationall way do acknowledg , that Pastor and ●lock are relatives and have reference one to another : Now if there were many Pastors in each of those Churches , then there must likewise be many Flocks in each of those churches : but that there were many Pastors and Bishops in those churches it is manifest by their constitution : For the Apostles ordained Presbyters in every Church Acts 14. and in the church of Ephesus by name we finde many Presbyters and Bishops , a whole colledge of them Acts the 20 ▪ ver . 17 , and 28. And therefore it is manifest there were many congregations and assemblies of Beleevers as in that church so in the other six : for in expresse words Paul sayes that he preached unto them in the Church of Ephesus publikely , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is in every house which is by Master Knollys acknowledged to signifie many several congregations in that church . And as it is at this day amongst us , when the Independents preach publikely and from house to house or in every house , every one of the shallowest understanding knowes , that they have severall congregations and severall meeting places , and therefore severall churches : even so it is to be understood by the same expression , that there were many churches in that one church of Ephesus , because they had many assemblies and many meeting places which the Scripture saith , they had both publikely and privately . It seemes that the Magistrates there were converted , and the Christians in that city had obtained so much favour from them , that they allowed them publike places of meeting as well as private , as may be gathered from Pauls words who said , That he had taught them publikely and from house to house . Now where there were such multitudes of people as could take up a famous Apostle night and day for three whole yeares together , who ceased not all that while to warne every one with teares Acts 20. 31. and that publikely and privately ver . 20. and where there were many more extraordinary Teachers , besides a whole Colledge of Bishops and all of them faithfull and painfull Preachers as appears Revel . 2. ver . 2. and all these likewise continually imployed , there of necessity there must be severall churches and congregations : but in the church of Ephesus there were such multitudes of people as imployed the Apostle Paul for three whole yeares night and day and many other extraordinary Ministers , besides a whole colledge of faithfull and laborious Pastors and Bishops : Ergo , there were severall churches and congregations in the church of Ephesus , and therefore the word church is to be taken collectively , as well antecedenter as consequenter as well as the word Angell : for there is the same reason of both . Now then if the word Angell in the Independents opinion 〈◊〉 to be taken collectively , the word church by as good Authority is to be so taken , and therefore as there were many Angels and Ministers in the church of Ephesus , so there were many Assemblies and churches in that church , by all which it undenyably followeth that one church may have many churches in subordination to it , as this of Ephesus and the other Asian churches had , and consequently was Collegially and Classically governed communi consilio presbyterorum : Now then when the the church of Ephesus and all the other churches my brother Burton enumerateth were all so governed , it followes that all these churches must be a paterne of government for the regulating and moderating of all other churches to the end of the world , which being all Presbyterially and Classically governed as hath been proved , all other churches at this day are to be Classically and Presbyterially moderated ; so that now when it is manifest both by Scripture and reason and by the Independents owne concession that the word churches may be taken as well Antecedenter as consequenter , it matters nothing what Master Baines thinks to the contrary , whose judgement in this businesse is very erroneous , how Orthodoxe soever he was in his other writings : for there is no man though of never so greatlearning or parts , no not an Angel that shall ever by Gods assistance make me believe or imbrace any doctrine or opinion that is contrary unto the holy Scripture and all sound reason , as this novell tenent and whimsie of the Independents is : and truly so it appeareth to be from my brother Burtons owne words : who by his induction of so many churches and by that nigh relation he affirmes they all had each to other , and amongst themselves , concludes they were all dependent , For if there was as great or nigh a relation betweene church and church , as is between member and member in the body of a man ( as he asserteth ) so that the one cannot say to the other I have no neede of thee , then of necessity they must be all dependent : but there is as great or nigh arelation between church and church as my brother Burton asserteth , as there is betweene member and member , so that the one cannot say to the other I have no neede of thee : Ergo they are all dependent . For the antecedent it is so cleere that all intelligible men will assent unto it . And for the assumption , my brother Burtons words confirme it , and therefore the conclusion doth necessarily insue . And if men would but consider and that duly , the m●nner of the civill government in all the Cities we reade of in the old Testament , both in Iuda and Israel , and the Ecclesiasticall government in them , the truth would , easily be perceived and the controversie would quickly be at an end amongst all sober minded Christians . Now in those severall Cities we shall finde , that under their severall Kings and Princes they were all governed by a secular Presbytery called by the name of Elders and Nobles , whose civill power and Authority under those Kings and Princes extended as far as the severall bounds and territories under their severall Cities delated themselves and not only within their wals : for as at their first constitution they were so many severall kingdomes as the Scripture relateth and had their severall jurisdictions and bounds ; so into whosesoever hands and Authority they were in succession of time devolved , either by conquest , donation agreement or compact , they commonly continued their Antient dimensions and limits , and as farre as their secular power extended it selfe in respect of their civill government and policy , the same limits did the Ecclesiasticall ever observe , and governed all the Townes and Villages under them , all whose inhabitants and dwellers in their severall abodes and habitations within the compasse of their severall jurisdictions were called Citizens , and the whole country in their severall precincts were called by the names of the severall Cities , as all Histories relate . And if we will but examine the Annals of times , all men may finde that which I now say to be true . For we see in the change of all governments , from Democratiall to Aristocraticall , and from both to Monarchy , that as far as their bounds and limits extended themselves before their changc , the Monarchsor Kings that either invaded those Governments or were brought in by election or the free choyce of the people , extended their sole power to the extreamest limits of those severall governments and in their owne name ruled those severall Countries , which before were governed by the Common counsell of their States , Senats , Elders or Judges , as we see it hapned not onely in the kingdomes of Iuda and Israel after the government of the Israelites was changed into a Monarchie , but even in the Roman Empire and all other kingdomes ; for when Caesar had invaded the Soverainty and had made himselfe Perpetuus dictator , as farre as the bounds and limits of the Roman Aristocracy extended its selfe before the change , so farre did his sole power expatiate and extend it selfe after the alteration ; and the same power did all the succeeding Emperours exercise to the extremest bounds of that Empire till the dissolution of it , as all Histories declare . Even so when the severall Presbyteries through the Christian world were through the cunning and policy of Antichrist , that man of sinne , changed into Episcopacies , as farre as the severall Presbyteries extended themselves , so farre did the severall Bishops appointed over them extend their sole power and exercise their sole Authority . Hence arose so many broyles contentions and digladiations amongst those severall Bishops about the bounds and limits of their severall Seas and jurisdictions , of which all Ecclesiasticall stories are full ; all the which doe sufficiently prove and declare to any man of but ordinary understanding that in those severall Cities which were after their change of government , the Seates of their Bishops and Prelates , they had many Townes and Villages and many Churches and Congregations under them all the which before this alteration were all governed by their severall Presbyteryes respectively and were all uuder them , and were ordered and moderated communi consilio Pesbyterorum which the Independents themselves do acknowledge , and my brother Burton by name in his vindication . Hence is was that the blessed Apostles went from City to City , to Preach the Gospell there in their Synagogues , as the whole Scripture of the new testament relateth , and they did not only Preach the Word to them in their severall Cities , but in each of them ordained and constituted Presbyteries , giving charge to Titus and Timothy to doe the same , leaving the government of all those congregations and Churches in those severall Cities in the hands of those severall Presbyteries in their severall jurisdictions , injoyning also those severall Presbyteries and Churches to observe the Decrees of the Synod and Councell of Jerusalem , and commanding the people , all Christians and believers in those severall Cities under them , to be subject and obedient to all their severall Ministers and Guides set over them , and to observe all that they should from God teach them to observe and doe , as we may see out of the severall places I set downe at large in the foregoing discourse , as out of the 14. of the Act. 23. Acts 20. 27. 18. Tit. 1 verse 5. 1 Tim. 5. verse 17. Heb. 13. verse 7 , 17 , 24. and the first of Pet. 5. 2. Iam. 5. 14. and Acts 15. 23. Acts 16. 4. Acts 21. 25. All which places of holy Scripture , and all the Arguments by which I prove all the Primitive and Apostolicall churches to be classically governed , my Brother Burton and I. S. passed by , not so much as taking notice of them , as they did not of those multitudes baptized by Iohn the Baptist , and Christs Disciples , of whom likewise they took no notice as not formed into a church or churches . But as our Saviour said to the Seducers , Matth. 22. Yee erre not knowing the Scriptures ; so I may truly say of all the severall Sectaries of this time , they erre not knowing the Scriptures , nor the power of God to punish them for their wickednesse ; For would they but take the word Church in that sense the holy Scripture delivereth it unto us and relateth it , the controversie would soone be at an end . Now the word Church in all the places above quoted , and through the whole Scripture of the New Testament for the most part , is taken collectively , either for all the catholike invisible or visible Church , or for the representative body of the church , or for many congregations and assemblies of Beleevers , all combined together under one government , either in a citie or countrie partaking in all the Ordinances , as in preaching , and praying , and the administration of the holy Sacraments , and in the exercising of godly discipline ; not onely within the wals of those severall cities , but through all the townes and villages , as farre as the bounds and limits of their severall governments , precincts , and jurisdictions did extend , as Acts the 15. 23. The Apostles and Elders send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch , that is , to the Church in Antioch , and in Syria , and in Cilicia . So that church is most often taken collectively , as the church of Geneva at this day , and of Basil , and the other reformed Cantons , as it was in the seven churches of Asia . Now when the word church for the most part in holy Scripture is taken in this sense , as the church at Ierusalem , the church of Samaria , Antioch , Philippi , Corinth , &c. and where there were many congregations and churches combined together , and all collectively taken , in this the Independents and all Sectaries erre , that they alwayes take the word church for no more then can meete together in one of their pipkin congregations , to partake and communicate in their Ordinances ; whereas the Scripture as I have in all the forgoing discourse sufficiently proved , taketh the word collectively for many congregations under one government , although every one of those severall congregations considered apart and by it selfe may truly and properly be called a church , as being a Branch and Member of some particular church , and communicating in all essentiall Ordinances with it , as hath abundantly bin proved ; yet still it is considered but as a Member , and a Branch or part depending upon the whole particular church under which it is , and therefore classically governed . From all which I may conclude , that when all those severall Churches , as that at Ierusalem , Samaria , Corinth , Philippi , Ephesus , which my brother Burton saith must be brought in to make up a compleate paterne of Church government , were all collectively taken , and classically and collegiatly governed , as consisting of many congregations , and yet but under one Presbyterie in their severall precincts and jurisdictions , my Arguments will everstand good ; yea , they are all strengthned from my brother Burtons Concession and his expresse words . For if when there were but three thousand Beleevers in the Church at Ierusalem , as it appeares , Acts the 2. they were then forced to sever themselves into divers companies , because they wanted a convenient place so spacious as wherein to breake bread , as my brother Burton saith , how impossible a thing was it for them all after that time to meet together in any one place or a few , when the church at Ierusalem multiplyed daily , and that by many thousands , and at last grew so numerous as they amounted to many Myriads , or innumerable companies , as appeareth Acts the 21. all which notwithstanding my brother Burton passeth by and taketh no notice of , wilfully deceiving the poore people , in concealing from them so apparent a truth : But should I take notice of the error of his words and discover all his juglings , my discourse would swell into a mighty volume : for to speake the truth , his expressions containe in them a heape of fraud and confusion , all which hee must one day give a severe account for . But not to take notice I say of his severall faylings : what he grants , is to be taken notice of , viz. that when the Church at Ierusalem was in its infancy they wanted a convenient place spacious enough to communicate in all ordinances , and therefore they were constrained to sever themselves into divers companies in severall private houses to communicate ▪ Then of necessity when that Church was multiplyed into many ten thousands , they must needs be distributed into many and many congregations and churches to partake in all the Ordinances , and all these were but one church , and under one Presbytery , as my brother Burton acknowledgeth . So that now I am most confident every judicious Reader will easily perceive , that my Brother Burton , and all those of the congregationall way meerly trifle , and delude the poore and ignorant people , whiles with their scriblings they trouble the world , in making rents and schismes in church and state . But heare yet how hee cavilleth : the church of Ierusalem saith hee , cannot bee a paterne to all churches , for then all Churches must have seven Deacons , and must bee all subject to some one Church ; because things in question , were there debated and determined , and sent to other Churches to be observed ; and in regard also that that Church was infallibly guided by the Holy Ghost ; in which respect , the resolution of that Church was with authority ; it pleased the Holy Ghost and us , which no particular Church since can ever say . In these respects ( saith hee ) it followes then that the Church of Ierusalem remaines not in all things a patterne for other Churches ; for a paterne must bee in all things imitable and perfect . Thus my Brother Burton makes a noyse to little purpose , contradicting all those of his owne party that I ever yet read or talked with , who all acknowledge that the Church of Ierusalem was a paterne to all churches ; and from the example of that church , ( as they pretend ) they forme and governe all their churches , and labour to reduce all to that paterne , and ground all their proceedings upon the Plat-forme of that church , and doe all as they affirme , in imitation of that , holding Synods to bee one of Gods ordinances , and ground it upon the meeting of the Apostles and Elders in the 15. of the Acts : and yet my Brother Burton here maintaineth the contrary , as his words sufficiently declare : for which his grollery , I beleeve all those of his Fraternity will give him little thankes , and blame him for his so great haste in answering mee : who in his wise Epistle to the Reader saith , I hasted at last as fast , as before I was slow , if possible to recover our brother : so that it seemes hee made more haste then good speed ( according to the Proverbe ) Canis festinans caecos parit catulos , and will have cause at leisure to repent ; for hee hath by this his jugling and conjuring quite rased the foundation , and overthrowne the whole Fabrick of the new Bable of Independency , which his brethren had beene so busie and diligent to lay , erect , maintaine , and uphold , and that from the example of the Church of Ierusalem . But it will not be amisse to examine his trifling reasons of this his gain-saying , and denyall that the Church of Ierusalem cannot be a paterne to other churches : for then saith he , every Church must have seven Deacons , and all Churches must be subject to one Church , and to the Decrees of that Church , which they cannot be , there being none now infallibly guided . Thus my Brother Burton out of the acumen of his wit disputes at randoun : after the very same manner did the Prelates in their generation dispute against the godly people they termed Puritans , when they alleaged the example of Christ and the blessed Apostles in receiving of the Sacrament of the Lords Supper , as that they all received it either sitting or using a Table-gesture : and therefore that all Christians , and Christs Disciples were bound to imitate and to follow his and the Apostles examples rather then Antichrists , as a paterne set downe to them of receiving the Holy Communion to the end of the world . To which the Prelates , and those of that faction replyed , that if the Puritans would make Christ and his Apostles in receiving the Lords Supper a paterne for their imitation ; then they must always celebrate it in an evening , and that after supper , and in an upper roome , and in a private house , and not in publick , and then they must never exceed twelve or thirteene communicants , and they must be all men and no women : and an hundred such other toyes they brought to prove , that the example of our blessed Saviour and his holy Apostles was not to be a paterne of imitation for the receiving of the Lords Supper to all Christians in succeeding ages : and after the same manner doth my brother Burton now trifle to no purpose . For as the example of Christ and the blessed Apostles was a paterne in respect of substance , and not in every circumstance , which was never required ; so was the church of Ierusalem , in respect of substance , and not in every circumstance to be a paterne to all churches for their imitating to the end of the world ; As for instance . The church at Ierusalem had liberty given them by the Apostles to nominate and make choyce of Deacons , when there was a necessitie of such Officers & to nominate and make choyce of as many as they thought sufficient for their occasions . And in this it was a paterne to all churches in succeeding ages , that they likewise if they had need of Deacons , might make choyce of holy and godly men , and of approved integrity , and of as many as they had need of , whether fewer or more , and as often as their occasions required , no church being limited for the number ; and as the Apostles onely in that church ordained the Deacons , and not the people , so the Ministers and Presbyters only , in all churches should doe the same . And as upon any difference amongst the brethren that are joyned together in church Fellowship ( as it hapned then betweene the Grecians and the Hebrewes , Acts 6. about their widowes , who they thought were neglected in the daily Administration ) they made their appeales to the Apostles for redresse ; so in this the church at Ierusalem is a patern to all other churches upon any occasions of such or the like difference , to appeale unto their severall Presbyteries : and as they willingly submitted themselves to their determination , so when the Presbyters command or appoint any thing in the Lord , and according to his word , the people are to yeeld willing subjection & obedience to their order ; and in their so doing to make the church of Ierusalem their paterne : and as in the church of Ierusalem there were many congregations and churches , and all these were combined together , and subordinate to one Presbyterie in this also the church of Ierusalem is to be a paterne to all churches in succeeding ages , that they may doe the like in imitation of that church , which is for ever to be a paterne to them ; and as upon occasion then certaine men went downe from Iudaea to Antioch , Acts 15. 1. and troubled the people there and in other churches , with words subverting their soules , saying that they must be circumcised and keepe the Law vers . 24. pretending they came from the Apostles and had a command from them of their so doing , so that upon this the churches sent unto the Apostles and the Elders at Ierusalem for the determination of this busines in debate , & waited patiently for their resolution , without making any rents or schismes in the church : and as the Apostles and Elders of that church and of other churches called a councell and Synode and there disputed and debated the matter with arguments and reasons searching the holy Scriptures What was the good will and pleasure of God in them , and accordingly determined that difference and question by the written Word , and from thence commanded that the Decrees of that Councell should be observed in all Churches . After the very same manner in this their so doing , the church of Ierusalem is a paterne to all other churches upon the like occasions , it any difference of opinion rise amongst the churches , or if any new heresies spring up tending to the subversion of the soules of the people , how holy and godly so ever they seeme to be that broach them , and what pretence so ever they make that they have them from divine Authority ; I say upon the like occasions in Imitation of the Apostles and Elders in the church at Ierusalem , Kings and Princes , and Christian Magistrates and those that are in Authority , may call a councell or Synod of Divines together ; and as the Apostles and Elders there debated things by dispute and reason , and by searching the holy Scripture found out the truth , and determined the question and sent their Decrees which were binding , to all other churches : so I affirme also in this their so doing that church is a paterne of imitation to all churches in all Nations and Countries and Christian churches in them , that Ministers out of severall Presbyteries in a representative body may meet together by the appointment of their Magistrates , and dispute those questions by reasoning and discourse , and finding by searching of the Word of God , what his good will and pleasure is , may determine the question accordingly , and give out their decrees grouned upon the written Word , with authority to be observed by all those churches under their severall Jurisdictions ; and as the people then did patiently wait till the determining of that difference without making of any rents , schismes , or separations , one from another , and did then yeild obedience to those decrees without any reluctation , but observed them all willingly after the debate ; so ought all people in imitation of them and following their example , with patience to wait , without making any rents and divisions , till things are fully discussed and determined in any such Synode or councell , and then willingly and cheerfully submit themselves and yeild obedience to them , and in their so doing they have the church at Ierusalem for a paterne and the Apostles and Elders of that church and the other churches for an example of imitation so long as they injoyne nothing contrary to the Word of God. For this way of governing the church by Synods and Councells , upon differing and dissenting opinions betweene church and church , and upon occasion of any new Heresies sprung up in Christian Countries or any old ones revived , as it hath its paterne from the church at Ierusalem and that of Antioch which is left for our imitation that all churches upon the like occasion should follow it ; So this way of ruling is grounded upon most excellent reason : as most agreeable both to the Law of God and nature and the practise of all Nations and Kingdomes of which we have many presidents in the holy Scriptures besides this councell at Ierusalem and some others . For as all Nations and Kingdoms have been ever governed by generall councells and have ever had their severall appeales , from inferior Courts and councells to Superior upon either publicke grievances , or upon any differences betweene Province and Province , and County and County , or betweene Corporation and Corporation , or City and City , or upon any Pressures or oppressions , or impeachments or incroachments of each on the others liberties or through injustice or injuries done to each of them , from some that are in power and authority ; So the church of Iesus Christ which is his Kingdome , is inferior to no other Kingdome upon earth ; but in that also the severall Corporations that are under it , which are so many Presbyterian churches , have in like manner the liberty of their appeales upon any of the aforesaid or above named occasions . And although they all injoy equall priviledges amongst themselves ( as the severall Provinces , Counties , Corporations and Cities in any kingdome do ) so as they cannot severally and by themselves considered , give a Law each to other ; yet as in a generall councell in Kingdomes and Common-wealths , when the Knights , and Barons and Burgesses of each of them are all met together in their representative bodies in a Parliament or Diet , may being so Assembled together , not only redresse any abuses , and punish Del●nquents , but also for the better government of those severall Do●in●ons for the future , give Lawes to each Province , County , City and Corporation , yea and unto the whole Country , And enact penall Statutes both to them , and to the whole Countries under them according to the fundamentall Lawes of the Kingdomes and Countries . In the same manner it is in the visible Catholicke church which is Christs Kingdome : although in it , the severall Presbyteries and churches considered by themselves and as having equall Authority amongst themselves , cannot give Lawes to each other , severally and by themselves considered , as the Church of Corinth , and that of Antioch , and Ephesus , and the other could not prescribe to each other a rule or Law to walke by with Authority , but only in an examplary way by well doing : yet all these severall churches ioyning together in a generall councell , as they did at Jerusalem Acts the 15. and having from each of them deligated and sent their Presbyters and Ministers as so many Burgesses , of their severall cities and Corporations , and they being all met together upon any grievances and having by debating of the matters and differences in question by dispute and by disquisition found , What is the good will of God , and what is his pleasure in his good Word and in the holy Scriptures which are the Fundamentall Lawes of his Kingdom may in any Christian councell so called , and ordering their businesse as the councell and Synod of Ierusalem did , give out their Decrees and those binding ones to all those severall churches that are under their jurisdictions , and all these severall churches ought to yeild obedience to them . And in this their so doing they have the church of Ierusalem and the other churches a president and a paterne . For ( I say ) in all these respects the church at Ierusalem is a paterne to all other churches . And as in the church at Ierusalem , Corinth , Philippi , Samaria , Ephesus , &c. the Apostles , Evangelists , and the Presbyters in every one of those churches had the charge of each of those churches committed to them in common , as is manifest from all the places above quoted , and through the holy Scripture ; and as they fed them all and governed them all in common : so in that also both the church at Ierusalem and all the other churches ( according to my brother Burtons doctrine who saith they must all come in for the making up of a compleat platforme ) I say as all the Presbyters and Ministers fed those severall churches in common , so they are a paterne to all churches in all succeeding ages to the end of the world , that they may do the same in their severall and respective Presbyteries . Neither is there any president or example in all the holy Scriptures of the new-Testament , that any church had its peculiar Pastor and Teacher , or Doctor alloted to it , with but two or three Elders and a Deacon with a slender congregation of people of the which they only had the cure and care for the feeding and ruling of it , and the which had absolute Authority within it self , and from which there was no appeale , the which notwithstanding the Independents assert is a true formed church after the new testament forme ; such a modell of a church I affirme can never be shewed or proved in all the new testament . God ( saith Saint Paul 1 Cor. 12. vers . 28. ) hath set some in the church ; first Apostles , Secondarily Prophets , thirdly Teachers , after Miracles , then Gifts of healing , helps in government , diversities of Tongues ; are all Apostles ? are all Prophets ? are all Teachers ? &c. and in the 4. of the Ephesians vers . 11. When Christ ascended on high , he gave gifts unto Men , &c. and he gave some Apostles and some Prophets : and some Evangelists : and some Pastors and Teachers : for the perfecting of the Saints &c. all the which places are to be understood concerning the Catholicke visible church . So that to appropriate these places of Scripture to any particular church , as those of the Congregationall way do , is to abuse and pervert the holy Scriptures for the upholding of their unwarrantable proceedings : for if these Scriptures are to be applyed unto every particular congregationall church , then there must not only be a Pastor and a Teacher , but many Pastors and many Teachers in each of them besides other church officers ; and then the Pastors and Teachers would be more in number many times then the flocke ; and if we looke upon all particular Churches founded by the Apostles which must be a paterne indeed to all churches , then we shall finde that in all of them , severally , they had many Presbyters , as in the 14. of the Acts and in the 20. of the same , and in all the above cited Scriptures doth abundantly appeare . So that there is no ground in all the holy Scripture of the new modell of the Congregationall way : for following the expresse Scripture , ( to use my brother Burtons owne words ) the first formed church we finde is in the Acts the second , which consisted of many thousands , and in that church there were no distinct officers and members united into one church body respectively : for all the Apostles and Ministers of that church fed and ruled that church in common : and therefore after the very same example and paterne may all Christian churches to the end of the world do the same and be well formed churches , & yet have neither a particular Pastor nor Teacher , nor distinct officers amongst them : for neither the church of Ierusalem , nor any of the Primitive and Apostolike Churches had that distinction of officers amongst them , and all and every one of them neverthelesse were well formed churches , and therefore in this they be a paterne to all churches . And as in the church of Ierusalem and in all the other churches all those that were converted and added to them were none of them forced to walke either Dayes , or Moneths , or years with them before their admission , that they might either know the Saints and Members of that Church , or be known of them , no● were ever forced to make a publike confession of their faith , and bring in the evidences of their conversion or to enter in by an explicite particular covenant , and to obtain the consent of the whole church before their admittance : So in this the Church of Jerusalem and the other Churches of the New Testament are to be a pattern to all other churches to the end of the World that they may follow the example of that Mother Church , and all the primitive Daughter-Churches in admitting of their Members without any of these things ; for that was the first formed Church , and yet shee required no such things of any that were added into her . But of this in its due place . And as the Ministers of the Church in Jerusalem , the Apostles and Teaches only had the power of government , and admitting of Members , and did it without the consent of the people , as wee may see in their first admission of Members , who applyed themselves unto the Apostles onely , saying men and brethren what shall wee doe ? and not unto the people ; and as in that Church , when the people and Beleevers opposed any that desired to be admitted , as they did Saint Paul , Acts the 9. verse 26 , 27. of whom they were afraid , not beleeving hee was a disciple , and hee then appealing to the Apostles , who upon hearing of the truth of the busines , they admitted him comming in , and going out without their consent ; in this also the Church of Jerusalem is to be a paterne to all Ministers and people in all succeeding Churches , that it is the Ministers place onely to admit of Members , and not the peoples , and if they should gaine-say the admission of any upon either their feares or jealousies , or out of other respects , that then they may have their appeales from them to the Presbyters in each Church , and giving them an account of their faith , they are by them to be admitted , notwithstanding the dislike and dissenting of their brethren ; for of this way of proceeding wee have the Church of Ierusalem for a paterne . And as the Church at Ierusalem , and all the other Primitive Churches never made any rents and schismes from the publike assemblies for some faylings , but alwayes constantly frequented their publike meeting places , notwithstanding the many corruptions of the Teachers , both in Doctrine , Discipline and Manners , and had not only the example of the blessed Apostles , but of Christ also in so doing , who when he was questioned concerning his doctrine , said , I taught publickely in the Temple , and in the Synagogue , and not in corners and by places , and he inioyned the people also to doe the same , Matth. 23 , saying , the Scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses his seat : all therefore whatsoever they bid you observe that observe and doe , but doe not yee after their workes , &c. So likewise other Churches to the end of the world ought to imitate this Church as their paterne , not to separate from the publike assemblies , and those Churches for some faylings , especially when they are found in doctrine , and preach all saving truths needfull to salvation without any mixture of humane inventions ; and so much the rather all Churches ought to imitate the example of the church of Ierusalem , and the other Primitive Churches in this , not only because they have Christs both example and precept for it , but because also separation is blamed by the Apostle Paul in the Hebrewes , Heb. 10. and therefore forbidden , who saith , verse 23 , 24 , 25. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith , without wavering ( for hee is faithfull that promised ) and let us consider one an other , to provoke unto love and good workes , not forsaking the assembling of our selves together , as the manner of some is : but exhorting one an other , and so much the more , as you see the day approaching , It seemes the Jewes presuming of their owne holinesse , and that they were the peculiar people of God , thought basely of the Gentiles , and began to separate in that regard from their publike assemblies , as too many now adayes of the Ildependents doe from their brethren , thinking themselves more holy then they : the Apostle therefore writing to his countrey men the Jewes , blames them for this , and in them reproveth all that doe the like , and forbids them so to doe ; and Saint Iohn speaking of such as made schismes in the Church , saith , that if they had beene of us they would not have gone out and departed from amongst us ; but in that they separated from amongst them , it was manifest that they were not of them : so that hee maketh it a marke and note of Apostates to make rents and schismes in any Church from the publike assemblies ; in all these regards therefore wee ought to take heed of separation , and ought in this to make the church of Ierusalem and the other Primitive Churches our paterne and example , and not to separate from the churches and assemblies of the Saints , though indeed there should be many faylings in them , which when the churches of the congregationall way daily doe , they are highly to be blamed as offenders against precepts and presidents , both of Christ and the blessed Apostles , and against the example of all the Primitive churches who never did it ; all the which notwithstanding my brother Burton saith ought to be conferred together for the making up of a perfect paterne for our imitation ; they therefore not following their paterne , but making rents , have in their so doing much to answer for . Lastly , as the church at Ierusalem , and all the other churches my brother Burton enumerates , are to be a paterne to all churches in succeeding ages , in their well doing and in what was prayse worthy : so likewise , wherein either the whole churches , or any officers or members in them , were fayling in their duty , and for it either reproved , threatned , or punished for their owne disobedience , or but for their indulgence at others in their sinnes , as old Ely , I Sam. 3. in that hee did not correct and chastise his wicked sons , and the seven churches of Asia for their particular faylings , especially those of Pergamos , Thyatira , and Laodicea , for suffering the doctrinc of Balaam , Jezebel , and of the Nicolaitans , though it was not with approbation of the same , but onely in that they connived at them , and did not exercise their power in casting out those offenders , and punishing those luke-warme Laodiceans , who were indifferent what religion was set up or imbraced amongst them ; I say in all these respects , both these churches and people and all other churches for their faylings and punishments are examples to us , to teach and forwarne us not to offend in the like manner , lest partaking with them in their sinnes , wee partake with them also in their severall plagues and punishments : for whatsoever was written was pend for our admonition upon whom the ends of the world are come , 1 Cor. 10. verse 11. and therefore if wee will tolerate all religions among us , and shall not be zealous for the honour of our God , and labour by all our might to establish his true worship , and for the extirpating of all heresies and scandals , the Lord will have a controversie against us , as hee had against them , and if wee repent not , will remove his Candlesticke from us , and leave us in darkenesse and in the shadow of death , as hee hath done those churches in Asia , who are all now under the Mahumetan superstition . For wee must take notice , that as every command of God is both preceptive and prohibitive ; so there is something in the practise and manners of all the Saints and churches of God , as that in the Israelites , 1 Cor. 10. and in the above mentioned churches that have some things in them to be shunned and avoyded , as their speciall sinnes and faylings , and some things in them likewise to bee imitated , as their zeale , piety , vertues , and godly examples , and holy courage , which as they are all praise worthy , and for which they ought ever to be honoured , so they are set downe for our learning and imitation that wee should doe the same ; yea , this their example is as a command to us that wee should follow them in this their well doing ; and where they did evill and fayled in their duty , in this , there is a prohibition to all christians and to all churches in succeeding ages to the end of the world , to take heed left they doe the like , and so fall into the same condemnation , as Paul speakes , 1. Tim. 3. verse 6. where prohibiting the Evangelist to ordaine a novice for a Minister , ( he saith ) lest being lifted up with pride hee fall into the condemnation of the Devill : for by his pride hee was cast out of heaven , that saith the Apostle hee was condemned for ; therefore lay thou no hands upon a novice , lest hee be lifted up with pride and fall into the same condemnation . So that in all the former respects , both the church at Ierusalem , and all other churches , and the people of Israel are a paterne to us , upon whom the ends of the world are come , that wee should alwayes set them before our eyes , if wee desire to injoy those mercies and blessings they partaked in for their well doing , or to shun and avoid those punishments were inflicted upon them for their sins negligences and rebellions . And this I thought good to say , in way of answer , to my brother Burton concerning the Church at Jerusalem , and the other Churches enumerated by him , all the which hee asserteth are to bee conferred together for the making up of a compleate paterne and plat forme of Church government , and yet grollishly denieth that they can be a paterne in all things , which to speake the truth , is a peece of non-sense and a contradiction . But before I conclude with him and shut up this discourse , I shall desire the Reader a little to ponder and weigh my brother Burtous expressions in the very entrance of this his answer , and reply to his own argument . For your indefinite enumeration ( saith he ) of those multitudes baptized by John the Baptist , and Christs disciples , wee take no notice of them , unlesse formed into a Church or Churches : but following the expresse Scripture , the first formed church wee find is in Acts the second . These words deserve due consideration . Amongst those that were baptized by Iohn the Baptist , Christ himselfe was one , the Lord of life , who sanctified that ordinance in his owne person , and that in a speciall manner , as being done by his speciall command , and that for the fulfilling of all righteousnesse , both in himselfe and in the Baptist , as it is at large set downe , Matth. 3. and it was ratified by all the blessed Trinity , as by the immediate descension of the Spirit of God upon Christ , in the likenesse of a Dove who was the person baptized , with a voice from God the Father out of Heaven , saying , this is my beloved Sonne , in whom I am well pleased . So that Christ , God the Father , and God the Holy Ghost did sanctifie and confirme this ordinance , not only to all those that had beene baptised by Iohn , and Christs disciples , who were also baptized by Iohn : but to all those in all future ages that should be baptized by Christs disciples , and all his faithfull Ministers , which hee sent into all nations to preach and baptize them , Matth. 28. to all which hee promised his presence to the end of the world . So that I am most assured , all good Christians beleeve , that Christ was well baptized ; and if he was well baptized , it cannot be denyed but that all those that were baptized by Iohn and Christs disciples , were all likewise well baptized , and were all good Christians : for both Iohn , and the Disciples had their commission from God and Christ himselfe for their so doing ; and therefore if any authority from Heaven , and a speciall command from God , and a mission from him , be of any force to ratifie , and ascertaine any ordinance , then the baptisme of Iohn and Christs disciples was authenticke ; and all those that were baptized by them , ought to have beene taken notice of by my brother Burton , and all the Independents , as formed into a church or churches , except they doe indeed beleeve , that Christ the King and head of his church , with his blessed Apostles and all his seventy Disciples , whose names were written in Heaven , and all those multitudes of men and women , that administred unto him and followed him , of whom hee gave this testimony , Matth. 12. ver . 49 , 50. Behold my mother and my brethren ; for whosoever shall doe the will of my father , which is in heaven , the same is my brother , & sister and mother ; except I say they beleeve all these cannot make up a formed Church or churches , which were impiety to thinke . Now I referre it to the judgement of any well grounded christians , whether or no they doe not beleeve that the great Pastor and Shepheard of our soules Christ Iesus , with his mother , brethren and sisters , with all those that heard the voice of this their Shepheard , and knew it , and therefore followed him , and beleeved in him , with all Johns Disciples and those that were baptized by his and Christs disciples Ministry , cannot as well make up a formed church or churches , as any of our new formed congregations with a Pastor and Teacher , and a few other of their conceited Members ? I am fully perswaded , that upon due deliberation , they will say , they can see no good reason , but that Christ the chiefe Pastor of his sheepe , and so many true beleevers and Saints with him , should not all of them as well make up a formed church or churches , as ten or twelve in one of our new congregations ; and therefore that they ought to have beene taken notice of by my brother Burton , and those of his Fraternity as formed into a church or churches ; which notwithstanding they doe not , asserting in expresse termes , that they take no notice of them as formed into a church or churches ; which if it be not the highest point of blasphemy and temerity , I know not what either blasphemy or rashnesse is in any . The Ildependents have unchurche● all the reformed churches , and all churches but those of the congregationall way , and now they unchurch all those glorious Christians that were baptized by the Baptist and Christs disciples ; wee ( saith my brother Burton in the name of them all ) take no notice of them unlesse formed into a church or churches . So that wee may not wonder , at least wee may not take it in ill part that they unchurch us , and deny our churches here in England , and all other reformed churches , to bee formed churches after the New Testament forme ; for they say the same of Christ and all that beleeved in him , and that were baptized into him , whiles hee was upon earth , affirming , that they were not formed into a church or churches . So that having so good company , we may the more quietly sit downe , when wee are so like our Master and his Disciples and Followers , of all the which they say they take no notice of them as formed into a Church or Churches . These words may not slightly be passed over : Wee ( saith my brother Burton ) take no notice of them , unlesse formed into a Church or Churches , &c. What men ordinarily take no notice of , they slight or little regard , especially if they speake those words from the judgement of deliberation , and not upon extemporary passion : or except they be in very great haste , and then they may be somewhat excused , if they passe by their best friends and take no notice of them ; otherwise if they speake it out of seriosity , that they take no notice of men , it is as much as to say they slight them , regard them not , or despise them . But I have a better opinion of my brother Burton ( though he thinketh very unworthily of me ) then that hee should slight his best friend Jesus Christ , and take no notice of him , and his disciples , and all the beleevers in Christs time ▪ especially when hee pretends That hee onely labours to set him up upon his Throne as King , and counts all his dissenting brethren from his wayes , enemies of Iesus Christ and his Kingdome . I say , in this regard I harbour a more favourable and a more charitable opinion of my brother Burton , then that upon mature deliberation and serious thoughts , he should take no notice of Christ , and his Apostles and Followers , and of all the faithfull baptized by Iohn and Christs disciples as not formed into a church or churches ; and yet these are his words , we ( saith he ) take no notice of them as formed into a Church or Churches . I therefore conceive more venerably of him , as that it was in his haste , when he thus spake and printed ; for so hee intimateth in his learned Epistle to the Reader ; therefore ( saith hee ) I hasted at length , as fast , as before I was slow if possible to recover our brother ; a charitable Gentleman toward a brother , though not well advised ! It seemes here was some tumour began to grow and made him giddy and run like a chicken without a scalpe , which needs timely lancing , to prevent some inflammation to a head , whiles the humor flows in so fast to use some of his own Rhetorick . This humour of his made my good brother idle-brained , and occasioned him to make more haste then good speed ; certainly it either perverted his judgment , or put him into a lunacy , or into one of his odd dreams ; for otherwise he would have taken notice , if not of those multitudes baptized by Iohn and Christs Disciples , atleast of Christ himselfe his good Friend , his Lord and Master , the King of Saints and King of Kings , the mighty Potentate , the sole and only head and Lawgiver and Governour of his Church : I say if he had not been in very great haste indeed and giddy withall in his brain , or in some distraction , He would have taken notice of Christ and have thought him and his blessed Apostles and seventy Disciples and those likewise that were baptized by John with Christs Mother , Brethren and Sisters , worthy to be esteemed a formed Church or Churches ; yet he and his brethren passe by them all ; saying , we take no notice of them as formed into a Church or churches ; so that it is no wonder they at this day take no notice of our Churches and that they absolutely deny them to be formed into a church or churches after the New Testament forme , when they do the same to all the beleevers in Christs time . Surely that Subject that should passe by his King and Soveraign , and all his retinue and Courtiers , and take no notice of him and them , and should yeild him no reverence , would be thought crased in his brain ; especially if he should in a slighting manner say , He tooke no notice of them . And all men that should hear such an expression from him , would not onely judge such an one a very unbred man and an uncivill fellow , but that deservedly he ought to be taught better manners . And without doubt a King that should understand of such a Subject , if he at any time had need of his favour , would reply unto him , Sir , you woud take no notice of me and my servants , go now to those for help that you think worthy to be taken notice of : As the Lord said unto the Israelites , who when they were oppressed by their cruell enemies and came then flying unto him for his assistance , Go , saith he , to your gods , that in your prosperity yee served , and seek help from them . And truly if the businesse be seriously considered , this my brother Burtons and his associates dealing with Christ and his Disciples and Followers , is not altogether unlike the dealing of the Israelites with the Lord , at least in words : For in plain termes they say , we take no notice of them as formed into a church or churches , so that Christ and his Disciples are very little beholding to those of the congregationall way . Certainly , the man was in very great haste when he uttered these words , or exceedingly distemperd in his brain ; for otherwise Christ had been worthy to have been taken notice of , if his followers had not . Our Saviour speaks of some , that at the last day shall say unto him , Lord , Lord , have we not preached in thy Name , and in thy Name have we not done wondrous works ? Mat. 7. ver . 22 , 23. To whom Christ saith , he will reply , Depart from me , I know you not . And doubtlesse if my brother Burton and his complices deeply repent not of these their words , and of all their evill dealing , in seducing and mis-leading of the poor people and of making rents and schismes in Church and State , but shall still persevere in the errour of their wayes , and will not yet take notice of those multitudes baptized by John the Baptist and Christs Disciples and of Christ himselfe and his Followers , nor of their brethren at this day through all the Reformed churches , as formed into a Church or Churches ; it is to be feared that whatsoever both he and those of his party shall pretend , As that they have preached in his name , and done wondrous works , in gathering of new churches , and preaching up the congregationall way and publishing of new truths , and setting up of new lights and placing Christ upon his Throne ; I say whatsoever they shall in this kinde pretend , Except they all repent of this their wickednesse and uncharitable dealing towards all their Christian Brethren , it is to be feared , that Christ will say to them as he professeth he will say to the others , I know ye not , depart from me ye that worke iniquity , and they all likewise perish . For what can any man that hath not resigned his understanding think lesse of this so weighty a businesse ? but that Christ may say unto them at that day , You have taught it in your congregations and printed in your bookes set forth by authority by all your consents , and that upon deliberation , that you take no notice of all those multitudes that were baptized by John and my Disciples , to be formed into a Church or Churches . These ( will he say ) are your owne words and that in capitall letters ; nay you deny them to be Christians , for so J. S. speaketh page 8 , and 9. in the name of all the brethren , giving many reasons there to the contrary , asserting that by the baptisme of John they were not made Christians , much lesse cast into a church mould , according to the New Testament forme , and least of all , that they were all Members of one Christian church at Jerusalem : These are his expressions ; For which he hath been much applauded by all of that fraternity , who usually say of him when he rideth through the streets , there goeth he that beat up Doctor Bastwicks quarters ; approving of this good worke of his in unchristianing all those that beleeved in mee and were baptized by the Ministry of my servant John the greatest Prophet that ever was borne of woman , and sent by me and my father to baptize them : And of Mr. Burton they never speak but in high praises , blessing God that he hath answered Bastwicks Book , which he writ in defence and maintenace of my honour , and for the reputation of all that beleeved in me , and were baptized in my name ; So that all those books that were set forth by those of the congregationall way to my dishonour and the disrepute of my followers are approved of by you all , and in them you say you take no notice of those multitudes that were baptized by John as formed into a church or churches . Now amongst those that were baptized by John , I was one , and my Disciples and my Mother and my Brethren , &c. So that you slight us all , and take no notice of us , as formed into a Church or churches ; that is in plain words , you are ashamed of us and deny us ; Now those that are ashamed of me and deny me before men , and take no notice of me and my Disciples , and of my Brethren and Sisters and Mother , and of those that beleeved in me and followed me whiles I was upon the earth , to be formed into a church or churches , I will be ashamed of them and deny them , and take no notice of them before my Father in Heaven to be formed into a church or churches : For he that despiseth my Disciples and my Followers , despiseth me , and he that despiseth me , despiseth him that sent me ; Yea , whosoever shall despise one of these little ones that beleeve in me , it were better that a milstone were hanged about his neck and that he were cast into the midst of the sea . This was one of my statute laws , will Christ the King of his Church say . Now you of the congregationall way take no notice of me , nor of them that beleeved in me and were baptized in my name by John and my Disciples , as formed into a church or churches ; for these are your own expressions ; I therefore will take no notice of you of the oongregationall by-path , as formed into a church or churches ; not onely for these your hard speeches against me and those that beleeved in me , but because in all my holy word I never appointed such a modell and forme of churches as you have erected amongst you , I therefore in all these respects , take no notice of you as formed into a church or churches ; I know you not ; depart from me ; this I presume any rationall man will be ready to gather will be the doome of those that take no notice of Christ and his Followers . Of these their words and of this their dealing therefore , except my brother Burton and his associates , seriously , unfainedly and speedily repent , they must give a dreadfull accompt at the last day . For if we must give an accompt of every idle word , what an accompt then must be given of such expressions as these are , which despise Christ himselfe and his blessed Apostles and all his Followers and all that beleeved in him when he was upon the earth , and take no notice of them as formed into a church or churches ? And what a dreadfull reckoning must he and his abetters give for all those erroneous , impious and uncharitable opinions they have of late hatched and brought into the world ? the very naming of the which would be unpleasant to a true sanctified soule , as this amongst the other , that they take no notice of Christ and his Disciples and Followers and all those that were baptized by John to be formed into a church or churches ? Yea what a fearfull accompt must they at that day give for all their bitter and reviling speeches and malitious practises against all their Christian brethren through the Reformed churches who they have all unchurched ? Yea my brother Burton and his complices must also give a great accompt of this , that whereas they should have taught the people the way of God truly and plainly and have delivered unto them the whole counsell of God , they not onely professe they will keep a reserve Donec ad triarios redierit res , contrary to the command of God who hath injoyned all his servants to be ready to give an accompt of their hope to whosoever shall demand it 1 Pet. 3. and preach it publickly and upon the house topp whatsoever he taught his Disciples in secret and privately , but blame all churches but their own of the congregationall way , as not rightly formed according to the New Testament forme , and yet would never set down to their brethren the modell of that forme and shew it unto the people and Saints of God that they might all be undeceived if in an error , although they have bin often & again sollicited thereunto , and although also they by promise had ingaged themselves to deliver in their modell by such a time , and by this their unjust and unrighteous dealing have kept the people of God and many pretious souls in ignorance of many principall truths if their doctrine be true , and caused the people by that means exceedingly to erre and to remain still in darknesse ; when notwithstanding they glory that they set up every day many New Lights , which is in them all a most fearfull and abominable sinne , and of the which as of all their hard words against their brethren , and of all their calumnies and reproaches , and bringing up an evill name and report against the Presbyterian government as the wicked Spies did against the good Land , of all these things I say as of all their errors , scismes and heresies , and especially of their taking no notice of those multitudes baptized by John and Christs Disciples to be formed into a church or churches , they except they speedily repent , must give a dreadfull accompt at the great day , and my brother Burton especially ; for he is one of the principall Leaders and Captains in this Militia and new Modell of Ill-dependency . If some yong Sprigge that had been turn'd about with every stream of opinion , and carryed about this way and that way with every wind of doctrine , had spake such words only , and had bin the author of such novell opinions and of such double dealing and jugling , I should never have wondred at it , knowing how unstable youth is ; but for an old Tree , in which the sap of youth should now be well dryed up , and which should be stiffe and unmoveable and for ever to be settled ; for such a one I say as my brother Burton was expected to be , to be unstable , thus tossing and tumbling about with every stream of new doctrine or every novell blast of any windy opinion , it sheweth that it is either founded upon a sandy ground or a brittle foundation or rotten at the very root , and that if it be not speedily looked unto and underpropped that it will suddenly fall , and that the fall thereof will be very great ; which that it may not happen to my brother Burton , and that the Lord would give him and his associates repentance for all their unthankfulnesse to God and for all their evill dealings and uncharitablenesse towards their brethren , and especially towards my selfe , it shall be my earnest prayer for them all who they have so much despised and ●ilified . And this I thought fit to speak concerning my brother Burtons reply , to whatsoever he had to say in way of answer concerning my first four propositions and the whole first part of my booke . What he hath to reply to my arguments about the second question , touching the gathering of churches , shall be answered in their due place , after I have spake alittle , according to my promise , concerning the Independents definition of their Church , which occasionally I met with , when from their owne Principles I confirmed my arguments , that if any thing , it might make them more specious in the Independents eyes , or at least that they might not be so inraged against me hereafter , when they shall take notice that I spake nothing , but what I ratified and made good from their own grounds : Their definition of their church is this . A visible Church is ( say they ) a mysticall body , whereof Christ is the head , the Members Saints , called out of the world , and united together into one Congregation by an holy Covenant , to worship the Lord , and to edifie one an other in all his holy Ordinances . Before I discover all the errors of this definition , and come to shew that according to this their description of a Church , there has never as yet beene a true formed church , and that none of the congregationall churches themselves ( if this their definition bee good ) be true formed churches ; and which is more , that they must of necessity , be all dependent , I shall set downe the chiefe things observable in it . First , they define a visible church , to bee a mysticall body , of which Christ is the head , the Members Saints , &c. Secondly , they assert , that this church is but one congregation , or as many as can conveniently meet together in any one place to partake in all Gods holy Ordinances . Thirdly , they affirme , that the forme of this church , is a holy explicite covenant , which falsely they make one of Gods Ordinances : or they say , they are united together into one congregation by an holy covenant . Now it cannot be holy , except it be one of Gods Ordinances , and have his command and authority for it , which is that that ingraves holinesse upon it : otherwise it is either diabolicall , or at least but humane . So that in the Independents learning , wheresoever any of these things are wanting , in any congregation of christians , it is not a formed church : for this is their definition of a church , within the bounds and limits of which whatsoever church doth not come , and within the which it is not terminated , it is no true church ; and so by this , all particular churches that are and have beene in the world , neither were nor are true formed churches , no not the very Independent congregations themselves , as I hope by Gods assistance I shall illustriously make appeare , after I have said something in order of the particular branches of this their definition , and have shewed the absurdities of it , and the impossibilities of attaining such a church as they have set out , and the great inconveniences , and indeed the unsupportable bondage that would redound unto thousands of Gods people , if these men might have their mind , and all things according to their definition : For from such a church as they describe and desire , though it consist but of ten or twelve , bee they never so erroneous in their doctrine , and never so corrupt in their manners , and never so perverse , malicious and unplacable in their minds and wils , and let their unjustice done against any poore oppressed Member , by them , be never so great or exorbitant , there is no appeale from it , or helpe or redresse to be expected by any appeale to any other court , church , or Ecclesiasticall Tribunall ; which is a yoake of one of the most horrid tyrannies and slaveries that ever the world yet saw , and which neither wee nor our Fore-fathers could ever beare , a greater then the which never any men voluntarily put themselves under , before these our unhappy times . All the which I shall , God assisting mee , in the examination of the severall parts of this definition , make evident . And first , whereas they define a visible church , to be a mysticall body . If any Presbyterian should have so spake , the Independents would have said , it had beene a bull . For visible and mysticall cannot be predicated of one and the same body , at one and the same time : for if it be mysticall , then not visible , and if visible then not mysticall : and therefore their definition belongs rather to the invisible church , then to any visible congregation , because the matter of it is the mysticall body of Christ , consisting of Saints , and such as are truly holy and godly , which none know but God himselfe ; for no man can certainly and positively say , that this or that man is a Saint , but in the judgement of charity , which is often mistaken , as the Independents themselves acknowledge they have beene : for the time was , that they thought some men Saints ( who are the same still , they then were ) and yet now they not only thinke , but say , though falsely , they are Devils , and repent that ever they prayed for them . But most true it is , that God only knowes who are his : yea , the Apostles themselves , though of more discerning spirits then any in our age , yet could not discover Iudas ; Christ onely knew hee was a Devill ; it was hidden and a mysterie to the Apostles , and the same to this day lies hid from all men , who are Saints indeed ; that belongs onely to God , it is his Prerogative , who is the searcher of all hearts : and therefore their definition is absurd , groundlesse , and vaine in this branch of it , when they say a visible church is a mysticall body consisting of none but Saints . And then it would follow , that none of the Apostolicall churches were true formed churches , according to this their modell ; for wee reade not onely of many scandalous walkers amongst them , but of some hereticks , and yet they ceased not to be true churches , what ever the Independents thinke now of such congregations as are mixt , though in none or in very few of them , they can discover any such offenders as were in the church in Corinth , Galatia , Philippi , and in some of the seven churches of Asia ; and therefore if their definition bee good , none of the Primitive churches were true churches ; yea , I hope to make it evident in the sequell , that none of the churches of the congregationall way are then true churches , as not consisting of all Saints . But now I come to the second branch or part , viz. that the Church they desire , must be but one congregation injoying all Gods Ordinances in it : which if it be true and good in this branch also , then the Church at Ierusalem was not a well formed church ; for there were many congregations ; and then also never a Church in the world to this day was a true church ; much lesse can any of our new congregations challenge that title and be true churches , it being impossible , though they consist but of one congregation apeece , for them severally to injoy all Gods Ordinances in any one of them : for amongst Gods Ordinances the Independents both in New-England , and here amongst us , hold , that Synods and Councels are one of Gods Ordinances , and yet they are not churches properly so called in their dialect , though as they are representative bodies of many churches , they may have that name given them , and are churches in my notion and according to my understanding ; but I say , not properly according to their language : for their congregations consist of particular Pastors and Teachers , and of two or three Elders apeice and Deacons , and of a few men and women , and have many other pretty things required for the moulding of them up into formed churches , after the New-Testament forme ; whereas in Councels and Synods , they have neither particular Pastors , nor Teachers over them , nor any such Elders and Deacons as they require , nor no women ; so that no particular church in the world to this present day injoyed that Ordinance in it . For a Synod and Councell consists of Presbyters onely , and that of many , not onely out of any one particular church though never so large and great , but out of many , sent and delegated from each of them respectively and severally ; yea , many times not only out of many severall Presbyteries adjacent , but out of other countries and Provinces ; as that at Jerusalem , and all the ancient Councels , and that lately at Dort , and this our Synod now present ; and their imployments likewise are of an other nature , then that of ordinary Pastors in their severall congregations , as all men know : and therefore not a church properly so called , according to their language ; for a Synod and church , are two distinct things , and both of them together were never yet found in any one congregation in the world ; and so by consequence , there was never any congregation or particular church that yet injoyed all Gods Ordinances , and therefore if their definition be good , they were no true churches , for they had no Synod or Councell in them : neither can any of our new congregations at this day have a Synod in them , and therefore they injoy not all Gods Ordinances in them severally , and so come not within the compasse , bounds and limits of their owne definition , and therefore remaine not true formed churches , as not injoying that Ordinance . Besides , there are other Ordinances that the congregationall churches cannot injoy : for there is an impossibility of it , not only in the beginning and first constitution of them , but many times after in regard of mortality , and the death of their Elders and Pastors , and other Officers , or when there remaines but one alive , as it often happens in our new congregations ; and therefore of necessity they must bee Dependent , if they will injoy all Ordinances , or else be no churches , as not injoying all Ordinances : As for instance , there are Ordinances that neerly concerne every particular congregation , which cannot be performed by that alone ; for how can a particular congregation , which for the most part consists of ignorant men and women , try the sufficiency of the Presbyters , that are to be elected or put over them , when they have no knowledge in those Sciences , Arts , Faculties and Histories , and of the tongues and languages , as Latine , Greeke , Hebrew , and are ignorant in many other things , that in some competency are required in all such as are to be made Presbyters and Ministers over them ; when I say not any one in those congregations , many times , have any knowledge in any one of those arts and sciences , in all which a Minister ought in some measure to bee versed in , if hee will take upon him that high calling , and charge of the Ministry , and duly and rightly performe it unto them : and were it so , that in all these new gathered churches they had such intelligible Members , who when they have made choyce of them , shall give them imposition of hands which belongs onely to the Presbyterie and Elders to perform , & cannot be done by the people , who never were appointed by God to ordaine Officers in his church , as all the learnedst of the Independents hold and teach : so that when any Elders and Presbyters , and other church Officers are to be ordained in their new gathered churches , they permit not the common people to impose hands upon them , but alwayes desire Elders and Presbyters of other congregations to doe it , without whose helpe they cannot injoy this Ordinance amongst themselves ; and therefore if they will have it , they must necessarily be Dependent . The same may be said of the Ordinance of Excommunication ; but I will first speake of imposition of hands , and ordination of Elders and Officers , the which howsoever in some of the more unlearned Independents esteeme it to be of small weight , and but a complement ; yet it is one of Gods holy Ordinances , which the Author of the Epistle to the Hebrewes accounts and reckons amongst the Principles of Religion , and a part of the Foundation , Heb. 6. ver . 1 , 2 , which place of Scripture , one of the Fathers of the congregationall way , Master Henry Iacob by name , who first baptized their new gathered churches , with that compellation of Independent churches , for his owne advantage exceedingly urged to overthrow the lawfulnesse of the Ministers of the church of England , because as hee supposed , the church of England erred in the Foundation , not having the due and right imposition of the hands of the Presbyterie , though in this as in many of his other opinions hee was very much mistaken : for those that imposed hands upon the Ministers at their Ordination , were Presbyters . Yet I say , they can urge this place for their advantage against us , and therefore I see no reason why wee also may not much more make use of it against them , it being Gods owne institution , and to be perpetuated to the worlds end in all churches ; so that wheresoever this Ordination and Imposition of hands by the Presbyterie is wanting in any church , that church cannot be truly said to injoy al Ordinances within it selfe ; for there is an impossibility of obtaining or injoying this Ordinance of Ordination of Officers , by the Imposition of the hands of the Presbyterie , and that often in their new gathered churches , not onely in the beginning of them , and in their first constitution ( as I said before ) but at many other times also , and that by reason of the death and mortality of their Elders , or when but one of them remaines alive , which frequently happens amongst them , as daily experience teacheth us , so that of necessitie they must crave the helpe of other churches , and therefore in all these respects are Dependent ; for not any one Elder alone , and by himselfe can ordaine an other , there must be more together for that imployment ; for it must bee done by the imposition of the hands of the Presbyterie if it be justly done and according to Gods appointment ; that is , of many Presbyters as the word imports . And if wee take a survey and view of all the Primitive and Apostolicall churches , as that at Ierusalem , of Philippi , Ephesus , and the other Asian Churches , wee shall find in them all , an established Presbyterie ( as I have abundantly proved ) many Elders and Pastors in each of them , appointed over them to govern and rule them in common , and all those severall Presbyteries had in each of them the power of Order and Jurisdiction , and the authority of imposing of hands , and ordination of Elders and Officers within themselves in their respective Presbyteries , so that they were as so many Corporations or Committees , having their Presidents and Chaire-men , with all other Officers amongst themselves , and that in abundance , as the Scripture relateth , as in all well ordered Corporations at this day it is to bee seene ; so that if any one or more of their Presbyters or Officers dyed within their severall preeincts , they did by vertue of their severall Charters presently goe to the Ordination of new ones , and of as many as they had need of , of which they had store and choyce for the most part , as all well ordered Corporations at this day have , who if their Presidents dye or any of their Aldermen , or any of their Common Councell , or any of their other Officers , they forthwith make election of others , out of some of their Free-men , or of men well knowne to them for sufficiencie , wisedome and discretion , and all other abilities , without having recourse to any other Corporations ; for they are armed with authority within themselves for this purpose , and they have usually choyce enough of men fit for their imployments ; and so it was in the Apostolicall and Primitive Churches , who collectively taken , were all collegiatly and classically governed , and depended upon their severall Presbyteries in their severall jurisdictions , which if they had beene single congregations only , as the Independents would perswade the deluded people , they could never have done , for the many reasons both now and in the foregoing Discourse specified . So that I am consident , it sufficiently now appeareth to any rationall man , that no particular Congregation can injoy all Gods Ordinances within it selfe , without Dependency upon others , there being an impossibility of it self . The same may be said of the other Ordinance of Excommunication , which cannot in any particular congregation be injoyed without it be Presbyterated , to use their owne expression ; that is to say , except it have their Presbyters and Elders , and Church Officers within it selfe annexed to it : for they amongst the Independents , that hold that excommunication must be inflicted by the votes of the whole Congregation , understand it then onely to be a compleate and formed Church , and to be an entire and a whole congregation , when it consists of their Elders & their other Officers , as well as of the people , and affirme , that the people without the Elders cannot excommunicate any , nor the Elders without the people ; and they of the Independent party on the other side ( for they doe not all agree amongst themselves in their Church government ) which hath retarded the bringing in of their new nodle , least that by it they should loose many of their Disciples and Followers which they well know would soone breake of , if they should not humour them in their new mould ; and therefore they cunningly juggle with the people and faine pretences , when indeed if they had meant Christianly and honestly , they would long since have brought in their new noddle of church government ; but fearing what would insue , and which would not be for their profit and honour , they have hitherto made delayes to the great disturbance of Church and State , and the seducing of many ; but I say those of the congregationall way , that hold that this Ordinance of Excommunication belongs unto the Elders onely , and put it into their hands , excluding the people from their votes , and that for many inconveniences as they suppose which are not yet removed , for all that , as will by and by appear , yet I say on all sides they agree , that without the Presbyters consent none can be excommunicated be they never so scandalous , so that so long as any congregation is without their Presbyters and Officers they cannot injoy this Ordinance also , neither can they ordaine them within themselves without help from other Churches , as I said before , and therefore they want this Ordinance till their new supply , and that they must crave from other churches when their officers are dead , and therefore of necessity they must still be Dependent ; but now let it bee granted , that when their church or congregation is againe recruted and made up againe , or presbyterated and compleate in respect of both Officers and Members , and that it consists of ten , twenty or thirty , or it may be of a few more , which is a pretty full church and congregation amongst them , what inconveniences , and them of dangerous consequence , would forth with insue upon it ; yea under how intolerable a yoake of slavery would many oppressed Christians by this meanes groan under , when at any time they are unjustly and wrongfully injured by them ? for there is no appeale from them to any other Court or Church-Tribunall for redresse or reliefe : let them be never so much wronged , or injured , or damnified by them ; For if the formidable sentence of excommunication passe once against any person , be it right or wrong , they throw and cast him out of communion not onely amongst themselves , but the whole visible catholick Church , and deliver him up to the devill ; therefore if this ordinance of excommunication be once inflicted upon any Member by the whole congregation ( as some of the II-dependents would have it ) or by two or three Presbyters only as others contend , the misery and grievance is never the lesse , nor the inconvenience ( and that of dangerous consequence ) the lesse avoidable as will dayly appear : for if all the congregation passe this sentence , many of the Members who have their votes , are private men , and for the most part unlearned and unexperienced , through want of yeares , parts , education and breeding , and not able to understand the nature of the allegations and probations , they being many times so intricate , so that they can never be able to apply the rule unto the case for the inflicting of a just censure , and may be in danger also to bear a peculiar hatred or ill will unto their persons , and so apt to be swayed by their passion to do unjustice , or may be over-awed by fear or threatnings of some other in the congregation who are the enemies to the party in question , so that they being powerfull men , rich in estate amongst them , and they being poor and indigent people whose dependency may be upon them as they are either children , servants , workmen or tenants , of which most of the congregations consist , and they daring not displease them , especially if they be their friends , as many times it happens for all or any of these respects , I say they going with the stronger side may passe this sentence of excommunication against him most unjustly , as it often happeneth ; & this must go for currant if the most voices carry it , and from them the party unjustly dealt with hath no appeal : but if they be obstinately bent against him , must live and dye in this condition under this heavy doome , which I beleeve in every understanding mans judgement will seem an intolerable inconvenience , for there is no appeale from them . On the other side be it granted that the Elders onely of this particular congregation have the power of excommunication in their hands , they are not ordinarily above two or three , and many times none of the learnedst , wisest and honestest men that ever were borne , and therefore are lyable and in danger of the same temptations that the other were , because of particular relations , and their dependence on their congregation for their maintenance and support : who they ordinarily dare not displease : for they know the ficklenesse of the people and how little a thing will disgust them and alienate their affections from them , which would be a cause also of withdrawing their contributions and supplies by which they support themselves and their families , and commonly when any rich and great man falls of from a Minister though he be never so faithfull and diligent in his place yet he will withdraw many , yea of themselves the unstable people will take occasion by others example to slight and neglect their Ministers as hourly experience teacheth us ; for , humor not them in every thing and they are gone . Yea but publickly or privately reprove them for their malversation or for any erroneous opinion they hold , and they will become your secret , if not your open enemies , and upon the least occasion be ready to side with any to do their Minister a displeasure , which when their Ministers well know , they are very fearfull of offending any , especially their more wealthy and abler Members ; besides we know upon what slender occasions differences many times do arise amongst nearest friends , when it concernes their profit or reputation , or their judgement in things of their estates or religion ; for if you jumpe not with them in their opinion in all things , they stand at a distance ; or hinder them in the least thing but in their gain and profit , and they will beare a secret grudge unto a man and wait an opportunity to do him a displeasure and to be even with him ; and this every man knowes is the practice of most men ; so that for any of these reasons men will be ready to harbour a displeasure against any Member , and if hee be called in question for any conceived miscarryage or scandall or for any different opinion , and this come once to banding and debate in the Church or Congregation , and there be siding on both sides , and parties made on each side , so that they grow into a heat , the Ministers and Presbyters in their severall Congregations are by this meanes brought into many straights , not knowing what many times to do , as not daring to displease either side , which way soever their private judgment leads them ; but ordinarily it is observed , That the Ministers will go with the strongest party and will gratifie that , and that for their own emolument and private interest ; neither is this all , but the Presbyters and Ministers themselvs in their Churches many times are subject to the same passions and affections as I said before , that other men are , and for some secret and private grudg against the person in question they may use the extremity and pronounce the sentence of excommunication against him , which when it is once past , there is now no remedy of appeal left unto him , be the unjustice or wrong never so great ; and presidents of this nature there are many to be met with in the congregationall Churches , as I shall if occasion serve be able to prove . What a sad condition therefore are such poor oppressed men in when this formidable sentence is once passed against them ; and when it lies in the brest of a two or three Presbyters amongst them ? and what a horrid yoke of bondage do miserable men by this means by their voluntary subjection bring upon themselves through their wilfull giddynesse , when they yeeld to so unwarrantable a government as to stand to the verdict either of a little ignorant congregation or of two or three men that are subject to the same temptations that other men are ? and then to be without all help or hope of reliefe be they never so much injured by them . But let it be supposed and granted that a slender Congregation of people or those two or three Elders in every one of their Congregations were as fre from infirmities and temptations as Angels , which they are not , yet the weightinesse and solemnity of the censure requires to be performed by a whole Councell and Colledge of Presbyters and Elders of a combined Presbytery which is Gods Ordinance , as I have abundantly evinced : so that it being passed not by the votes of a few people or by the voice of two or three Elders only ; and they lyable to so many temptations also ; but by the conjoynt agreement and consent of a great Presbytery free from any such temptations and exceptions , it may be done with the more advised and combined authority , and be more dreadfull to the party , and be the better accepted and submitted unto without heart burning and grudging against either the Congregation or particular Elders , or fear of revenge . But will some say , How if this whole Colledge of Elders should erre in their consure and do iniustice , for some of the above mentioned reasons , what remedy or reliefe then has the iniured person offended by their censure ? For answer , he hath the benefit of his appeale to a higher Presbytery or Classis ; & if wronged there , he hath the benefit yet of appeal to a higher Presbytery and Classis ; and if he have no releife there , yet he hath the benefit of an appeal to a Synod , which is Gods Ordinance also ; so that he hath still hope of reliefe and he still in Gods way ; and so long as there is hope and he takes a right course , he needs not dispair , and if at one time he finde not redresse in one Presbytery nor in one Synod and Councell , he may in another ; it is good ever to wait upon God in his Ordinances ; for in so doing we have a promise of a blessing , and here is alwayes comfort and expectation of reliefe , and this is not onely Gods method , but the custome of all Nations and Kingdomes for the well ordering and governing of them and for the redressing of grievances and abuses ; and i● there can no justice be had by this his endeavour in no Court , this still doth uphold a drooping spirit and comfort him that he hath used all lawfull meanes and doth for ever commit himself and his wayes to God , who is a reliever of the oppressed , and a revenger of the wrongs and injuries done unto his Elect , who hath said , Luke 18. ver . 7 , 8. Shall not God avenge his own elect , which cry day and night unto him , though he bear long with them ? I tell you he will avenge them speedily . So that there is mercy with him that he may be feared , and therefore I say , There is ever hope in the use of lawfull meanes , and in all their just appeals . But grant there be no justice on earth to be found in any Courts , and that there were such an universall corruption amongst all judges both Ecclesiasticall and Temporall , which were great uncharity to suppose , much lesse to say , Yet , I say , the people of God when they are unjustly oppressed shall ever be able to solace themselves in this , That there is forum poli , as well as there is forum soli , that there is a Court in heaven as well as there are Courts on earth ; there is a great tribunall before which all men must one day appear , to give an account of all their unrighteous dealing on earth , the thought of which will support the most drooping and oppressed spirit : which not withstanding doth not alwayes cast away his confidence , as long as there are any Courts and higher councells to appeal to here in this world , which all those that submit themselves to the Presbyterian Government are like to enjoy ; whereas those of the congregationall way and that stand for the II-dependent Government deprive themselves of , and not onely bring themselves under an unsupportable slavery , but would subjugate the whole world to the same bondage and tyrannicall usurpation , Which the Lord preserve his people from , and put it into the hearts of the great Councell of the Kingdome , and all cordiall and understanding men to oppose with all their might , as they love the peace of Church and State , and the establishing of the true religion in these three Kingdomes , and the propagation of the Gospell to the worlds end ; all the which the whimsicall opinion of Independency will hinder , which indeed tendeth to no other end but to bring in an Anarchy and a confusion of all things , and the setting up of Athisme or a Pantheon of all Religions , to the great dishonour of God and the disturbance of our Church and State , and the alienating of the nighest allyes one from another , and to the distraction of all men , as our small and little experience of that way hath by wofull tryall and dayly experience taught us . And this shall suffice to have spoke of the second branch of their definition in discovering the absurdities of it , and the impossibilities of attaining such a church as that sets down , and the great inconveniences , with the unsupportable bondage that would necessarily ensue upon it to all such as should subject themselves to such a Government as the Independents would bring into the world . I now come to the third part of their definition , viz. Their particular explicite holy Covenant , which they not onely call the form of a Church , but make it an holy Ordinance , which it cannot be for the reasons above specified , as having no warrant from God our father , nor no example in any of the primitive Churches , who had no other but the generall Covenant , which all the Presbyterians allow , as it is authorized by God himselfe , though they reject that particular explicite Covenant brought in by the Independents , as being an humane Ordinance , which all Christians in Gods service ought to abhor , as not commanded and injoyned unto them by the King of his Church Christ Jesus , whose voyce onely they are bound to hear , and who alone they are to set up as King upon his Throne , who is their Lawgiver and mighty Councellor , and the sole governour of his Church and Kingdome . And should it be accorded and granted to the Independents , That this their particular explicite Covenant were indeed the forme of a Church , as they would perswade the people , then all the primitive and Apostolicall Churches , as well as all the reformed Churches at this day in the world besides their own congregations , were not true formed Churches , which were a great wickednesse and impiety to aver and maintain . But besides this their unwarrantable Covenant which they make the forme of a Church , they require of all such as will enter into Church fellowship with them , many other pretty things , which they hold not onely requisite , but Gods Ordinance also ; as , First , That they should walk some weeks , moneths , and perhaps years , with them for a proof of their conversation , and for the tryall of their behaviour and manners , and except they can please the whole church , there can be no admittance at last . Secondly , after their good liking of their carriage , they injoyn them to make a publike confession of their faith ; and if that dislikes them , they cannot be admitted . Thirdly , after this , they require of them to bring in the evidences of their true conversion , as the time when , the place where , and the manner how , all which if the congregation approve not of as sufficient , they cannot be yet admitted . Lastly , they that are to be admitted , must have the consent and approbation of the whole congregation both of men and women , or else by their Charter they cannot be admitted into Church-communion with them . All these things as I am able to prove , they require in some of their Congregations , before any can be admitted as joynt members amongst them ; never a one of the which conditions or injunctions not withstanding hath either precept or president for it in all Gods holy Word . And therefore it is an unsufferable flavery that they impose upon the people , besides this their particular explicet covenant , which they make the form of the Church , which should they onely require , without any of their o'her grolleries , were a bondage too unsufferable ; for in that their Covenant , as I have been informed by some of them , when in familiar manner , and in the time of our friendship , I desired to know the method of admitting of their joynt members , and especially what the Covenant imported , and what they promised in it , and what by it they were tyed unto , and for answer they replyed , that three things were contained in this their holy explicite Covenant . First , That they promise and by this Covenant binde themselves to each other in all Church fellowship , as to be helpefull one to another in all things , and especially to their Pastors , and to stand one by another without desertion of each other , and that in the greatest dangers and difficulties , and to yeeld obedience and willing subjection and conformity not onely to those truths that are now imbraced and entertained amongst them , but also willingly to submit themselves to all such New Light for the future , that God shall by his Word and by the Ministry of their Pastors discover unto the Church . This as I have been informed by the Independents , is the first thing they require of those that are to be admitted as members , and which they promise and Covenant to performe . The second thing contained in the Covenant , is , That if they be single persons either batchelors or maidens , widdows , or widdowers , they may not marry without the consent of the Church . The third thing contained in this their holy Covenant , is , That they may not remove their habitations and dwellings , though never so advantagious unto them for their traffick and tradings , into any remote place from them , without the consent of the Congregation , and some other things there are comprised under this Covenant , which they keep among themselves as arcana regni as secrets of their Kingdome , all the which if they be seriously looked into , contain in them so many mysteries of Iniquity ; yet all of them exceedingly advantageous unto themselves , they all tending to the strengthning of their partie , and the more corroborating their combination , as those that are judicious have well observed . But were there no other slavery and bondage , in their whole religion , but this of their covenant and of the appertinances belonging thereto , as amongst others , their blind obedience , there was never yet a greater yoak of servitude put upon poor people under Antichrist himself ; and the truth is , as the Papists oft times , scoured over old holy dayes with new ceremonies and solemnities , and put them upon the people to be observed as new ones ; even so the Independents furbush over old errors with new varnish , to make them more specious to the deluded people , and bring them in as new truths , and set them up as new Lights , when they are nothing else but ancient errours , and very Popery it selfe in a new attire , as is apparent to any that will not wilfully put out their eyes . In the time of the Prelates raign , every ceremony they brought in was excepted against as a human tradition , and that worthily : and every invention and tradition of man was rejected as Popery , and will-worship was abhorred as Antichristian ; and to serve God by the precepts of men , and by a service established onely by humane authority , was rejected as a thing displeasing unto God , and thought unsufferable ; and to have Prelates set over them to Lord it over Gods heritage was thought the highest point of tyranny ; and for the removall of them root and branch with all their trumpery and appertinances , all the Independents themselves , with the whole city and the greatest part of the Kingdome , petitioned the great Councell of the Kingdome ; and not onely so , but many of them have ventured their lives in the just defence of their Christian libertie , and have offered their estates and exposed themselves and theirs to greatest dangers in this good quarrell , which will ever be to the immortall honour of them all to all succeeding ages , and they will be an example to other Nations to do the like . Yet behold every one of these things revived now and brought in amongst the ignorant people , and contended for with all severity and eagernesse , as for the Oracles of God , notwithstanding ding they are but the inventions of men , there being neither precept nor president for them in the whole Word of God , nor any practise of them in any of the Apostolicall and Primitive Churches : and therefore it doth necessarily follow , That their whole service and Discipline with all their concomitants are but their own appointments , for which there is no warrant or pattern in the whole Word of truth ; and as for their Ministers and Pastors , both in New England & in their new Congregations here they Lord it over the poor people , in as high a manner ( as can be proved ) as ever the lordly Prelates did , in respect of their supercilious behaviour ; and yet the people swallow all these things as Gods Ordinances , and bind themselves by their unholy Covenant to observe them , which in any understanding mans judgement , that knows what his Christian l●berty is , and in the which he is commanded to stand fast in , Gal. 5. ver . 1. is the most intolerable yoak of bondage which the world yet ever saw . And thus having briefly discovered some of the errors of their definition and shewed the absurdities of it , and the inconveniences of such a Church as they would have , and evinced also , that according to that , there has never yet bin a true formed Church on earth , and that all the congregationall Churches , if they will be included within the compasse of that discription , they must necessarily be Dependent ; I will now come to my last and main conclusion , which is to prove that none of the Churches of the Congregationall way are true Churches , as not consisting of all visible Saints , and therefore not to be communicated with in holy things : which I shall do from their own argument . For thus they dispute against us . Those Assemblies ( say they ) or Churches , in which the Members are not visible Saints , called out of the world and united together into their severall Congregations by an holy Covenant to worship the Lord and to edifie one another in all his holy Ordinances , they are no true formed Churches according to the New Testament forme , and ought not to be communicated with in holy things , but are to be separated from , unlesse they will be made companions with such kinde of Saints as Job would not set with the doggs of his flocke , being tagg ragg , with whom godly soules can no more converse then with heathens . But , the Parochiall Congregations through the whole Kingdome are such . Ergo , they are not true formed Churches after the New Testament forme , and ought not to be communicated with , unlesse &c. This is the Il-dependents doctrine they teach their Disciples concerning our Churches , as appeareth in all their Pamphlets , as in that of I. S. and my brother Burtons especially , and this is one of the capital arguments which they use , to maintain their separation from us ; and upon which they ground the gathering of their new Congregations , the futility and vanity of the which every one that shall but vouchsafe to read this book shall finde in many places discovered . I will therefore in this place , make use of the same against themselvs to prove that their Churches and new gathered congregations are not true formed Churches after the New Testament forme , as not consisting of all visible Saints , and therefore not to be communicated with in holy things as the severall insuing arguments will declare : which I desire the Independents themselves would without any prejudice seriously consider and ponder , that they may the better discern into the errors of their wayes , and in time repent of all their unrighteous and uncharitable dealing towards their brethren . I thus argue . Those Churches and Congregations , the Members of the which are not visible Saints , called out of the world and united together into their severall Assemblies by an holy Covenant to serve the Lord in all his holy Ordinances , but are joyned together in a wicked conspiracy and combination against the people of God and his Ordinances and to hinder the reformation of the Church : they are no true formed Churches after the New Testament forme , and the Members of them are not true visible Saints and therefore ought not to be communicated with in holy things , but to be separated from . But all the Churches of the Congregationall way are such : Ergo , they are not true formed Churches after the New Testament forme ; and therefore by their own doctrine , not to be communicated with in holy things , but to be separate from , and that for the same reasons the Il-dependents falsly pretend they sever themselves from our publique Assemblies . The Major of this Syllogisme is their own , and therefore they cannot gainsay it ; the Minor therefore being proved , the conclusion will necessarily insue . And as for the Minor , I thus evince it . Those Churches and Congregations whose Members are raylors ▪ révilers , slanderers , covenant-breakers with God and man , ordinary lyars , notorious calumniators and false accusers ( such as in holy Scripture are called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Devils ) heretiques , open seducers and causers of division and offences contrary unto the doctrine of Christ , such as all Christians have a special command to take heed of and to shun , and are prohibited to receive into their houses or bid God speed , or so much as to eat with , they are no visible Saints nor good Damons : and therefore no true formed Churches nor to be communicated with in holy things . But the churches of the congregationall way consist of such Members : Ergo , they are not visible Saints , and therefore no true formed churches nor to be communicated with in holy things . For the Major of this Syllogism , it is grounded upon Godsown word , and has its warrant for it as the insuing places sufficiently prove , Rom. 16. ver . 17 , and 18. Now I beseech you brethren ( saith the Apostle ) marke them which cause divisions and offences ▪ contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned , and avoyde them : 1 Cor. chap. the 5. ver . 11. But now I have writ unto you ( saith Saint Paul ) not to keep company , if any man that is called a brother , be a fornicator , or covetous , or an Idolater , or a raylor , or a drunkard , or an extortioner , with such an one no not to eat . 1 Tim. chap. the 6. ver . the 3. and 5. If any man teach otherwise , and consent not to wholesome words , even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ and to the doctrine which is according to godlinesse , from such withdraw thy selfe , and 2 Tim. chap. 3. ver . 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5. In the last dayes ( saith the Apostle ) shall perilous times come : For men shall be lovers of their own selves , covetous , boasters , proud , blasphemers , disobedient to parents , without naturall affection , covenant or truce-breakers , false accusers or make-bates , incontinent , fierce , despisers of those that are good , trayterous , heady , high-minded , lovers of pleasures more then lovers of God , hauing a forme of godlinesse , but denying the power thereof : from such t●rne away ; for of this sort are they which creep into widdowes houses and lead captive silly women laden with sinnes , &c. Tit. 3. ver . 10. A man that is an hereticke after the first and second admonition reject saith the Apostle , 2. John ver . 10. If there come any unto you ( saith Saint John ) and bring not the doctrine of Christ , receive him not into your house , neither bid him God speed : for he that biddeth him God speed , is partaker of his evill deeds . And Gal , 1. ver . 8 , 9. If we or an Angell from Heaven ( saith the Apostle ) preach otherwise then that which we have preached unto you , let him be accursed ; as I said before so I say now againe , if any man preach unto you any other Gospell , then that you have received , let him be occursed . Out of all the which places and many more that might be produced , we are taught to shun and decline the society and fellowship of all such Christians as are corrupt in their doctrine or manners , and such as either preach or practise otherwise then they have precept or example for in the holy word of God ; especially we are to have no communion with them , when they not only preach another way to Heaven then that which Christ and the holy Prophets and blessed Apostles have chalked out unto us and delivered unto the Church , but have joyned themselves in a wicked and unwarrantable Covenant to persist and continue in this practice ; for they are no Saints : But such are those of the Congregationall way , whose Teachers and Members are combined together to persevere in their wicked practices and courses ; and therefore by expresse command from Heaven we are to have no communion with such unlesse we will be found fighters against God , and partake in their punishments : And these places of holy Scripture with these reasons shall suffice for the proofe of the Major proposition . For the Minor , that the churches and assemblies of those of the congregationall way consist of Raylers , Revilers , Slanderers , and covenant-breakers , &c. it is evident and well knowne to all such as are acquainted with the practise of the Independents , and are verst in their doctrine , and have read their Pamphlets , which consist chiefly of errors , untruths , and right-downe raylings , as amongst others , those of my brother Burton , and Iohn Lilburne , not to mention the Pamphlets of all the other Independents , the very names of which would make a booke , in all the which there is little other but rayling and dangerous novelties . Some of my brother Burtons , and Iohn Lilburnes expressions , with an other or two more which write in the name of all the Independents , I will produce , that by the mouth of two or three of their witnesses , the truth of their proceedings in their Raylings , Errors and Lyes , and bad practises may be yet more evident . My brother Burton in his Vindication hath these insuing words against all the Presbyterians , both Ministers and people : and first against the Ministers of whom hee saith , that they deny , disclaime , and preach against Christs kingly Government over mens consciences and churches , so that such a conversion ( as is wrought by them ) comes not home to whole Christ ; and such with their converters , doe deny Christs kingly Government , or at least , and best , they are converted but in part , and that maine thing is wanting , to wit , Christs kingly Office. And in his Vindiciae veritatis hee accuseth mee , pag. 21. for taking Christs name in vaine , because in my Booke I asserted that the Ministers of the church of England set up Christ upon his Throne ; which for mee to affirme , hee saith it is to take the name of Christ in vaine : his words are these . And here saith he , I challenge our brother for taking Christs name in vaine , when insteed of finding Christ set upon his Throne in their congregations , we find there no more but an Image , such as Michal had made up insteed of King David ; or as those that in mockery made of Christ a Pageant King , stripping him , and putting on him a scarlet Robe , and on his head a Crowne of Thornes , and in his hand a reed , saluting him with Haile King of the Iewes , with which title over his head they crucified him ; therefore ( saith he ) those passages quoted out of my Booke will stand good against their opposers . These are his words against all the Ministers of the Church of England . Now of all the people that are not of the congregationall way , and of their new Assemblies , my brother Burton in his Vindication hath these words , Wee exhort them ( saith he ) to set up Christ King in their hearts : Wee exhort them to become and professe to be those Saints of whom Christ is King , for hee is King of Saints , Revel . 15. 3. but they will not beleeve us ( saith hee ) they will not depend upon Christ as the only Law-giver and King over their consciences . Now what would you have us to doe in this case ? ( saith hee ) baptize the Infants of such parents , as will not in this respect professe or confesse Christ to be their King ? why doe you not know ( saith hee ) that no Infants have any title to Baptisme that are not within the Covenant visibly ? and how are they within the Covenant visibly , but by vertue of their parents faith outwardly professed ? and what outward profession of faith is there in their parents that refuse Christ for their onely King ? that are ashamed or afraid to professe to be in covenant with Christ as their King ? if therefore the parents professe not , yea , refuse thus to be in visible covenant , can the children be said to be in visible covenant , and so to have a right in Baptisme , the externall Seale of the Covenant ? here is an obex , a barre put . These are my brother Burtons owne words , which I have set downe at large , omitting many other such expressions ; the summe of them briefly is this ; that all the Ministers of the Church of England , that are not in their combination , doe deny , disclaime and preach against Christs Kingly Government over mens consciences and churches , and are no better then the persecuting Jewes that made a mocke , scorne , and ludibry of Christ ; and that all the people under their Ministry , are men unconverted , or at least converted but in part , wanting the maine thing , to wit , Christs kingly office , men visibly out of the covenant of grace , who have not so much as an outward profession of faith , who deny Christ to be their King ; to whose persons and infants the very Sacraments and seales of grace , with all church communion , may and ought to be denyed . Now I referre my selfe to the judgement of all learned and impartiall Christians , whether there can be uttered with the tongue or pen of men any more injurious , unjust ra●lings and revilings , or more untrue and false accusations against their brethren ? For all those godly Christians through the thr●e K●ngdomes can wit●esse the contrary , who by the p●eaching of the Word and Gospel have beene converted by the Ministry of the chu●ch of England : Yea , the Independents themselves , and my brother Burton , if they will no belye the truth , must acknowledge next under God their conversion to the Ministers of the church of England : for none but converts and beleevers are to be admitted into their new congregations ; and I never yet heard that the Independent Ministers converted any , and therefore when my brother Burton accuseth all the Ministers and beleeving people of the church of England , to be enemies of the Lord Jesus , when they all indeavour to set him up upon his Throne as King , it is a most horrid wickednesse in him , and those of his party to beare false witnesse against their Neighbours , and so to calumniate and revile the true servants of the Lord by which they come to take the Devils office upon themselves , and become all of them false Accu●ers of the brethren , Raylers and Persecutors , and Seducers , and therefore no Saints . Yea , it is ordinary with my brother Burton as can be proved , both to speake and print untruths , and notorious falsehoods ; but passing many of them by , in some of his last bookes , as Truth shut out of doores , and in this his Booke called Vindiciae veritatis , which may bee more properly stiled Vindiciae mendacii in the 24. page , speaking there most maliciously against learned Master Edwards , and my selfe , hee saith , that hee by his pen and preaching , and that I by my pen , labour to take an order that the Independents shall have no Pulpits to preach in at all , Witnesse ( saith he ) that late mis-rule at your towne of Colchester upon your bookes , and T. E. his preaching ; by which words of his , hee would make the deluded people beleeve that there was some great Persecution stirred up at Colchester against some Independent Ministers there , to hinder them from preaching in their Pulpits ; which is a most notorious falshood , the contrary of which is true ; for the Independents made a mis-rule in the very Church against Master Edwards , and openly reviled him in the congregation , using many rayling speeches against him , and that against all the Laws of Christianitie and civilitie , and had almost by their barborous carriage against him , raysed a tumult in the Towne to the disturbance of them all , had it not timely by the wisedome of some beene prevented . So that it may easily be perceived , what the Independents would doe against the Presbyterian Ministers , if the authority were once wholly in their hands , when they so timely begin where their faction is any thing powerfull ; yet such is the boldnesse , or rather impudencie of these men , that when they are the only Persecutors of others , and the Raysers up of tumults and commotions against the faithfull Ministers of the Gospel , they falsely spread it abroad that they are persecuted by us , and not suffered to come in our Pulpits , as my brother Burton doth here accuse the good people of Colchester , and those of Alderman-bury , as if they also had shut truth out of doors ; when notwithstanding it can by a cloud of witnesses from Colchester bee proved that the Independents made the mis-rule , and that my brother Burton shut himselfe out of doores at Aldermanbury , and yet hee untruly accuseth them of that crime of persecution ; and this is the generall practise of all the Independents , falsely to accuse and calumniate their brethren ; and my brother Burton and Iohn Lilburne are Masters in this art , and therfore surely they can be no Saints , without Devils be Saints : for so the holy Scripture calleth such : I have cited some of my brother Burtons expressions ; I shall now set downe some of Iohn Lilburnes language , concerning both the Ministers and beleevers of the church of England . In his Letter to my brother Prynne , to omit many of his rayling and violent calumnies there against the Ministers , hee saith that they are the sworne enemies of Iesus Christ ; yea , the profest enemies of their anoynted Christ , and in his one of his Pamphlets which he made in prison , & which he lately againe set forth upon more mature deliberation , hee hath many most unchristian , bitter , and unsavery expressions , and so apparently untrue , that every child can say hee is a notorious calumniator and Lyer . Some of them I will here set downe : amongst other things hee speaketh of the church of England , and of the faithfull , hee thus uttereth himselfe , affirming That the Church of England is a true whorish Mother , and that they that are of her , were base begotten , and bastardly children , and that shee neither is , nor never was truly married , joyned , or united unto Jesus Christ in that espousall band , which his true churches are , and ought to be , bnt is one of Antichrists nationall whorish Churches and Cities , spoken of Revel . 16. 19. &c. That the Church of England is false and Antichristian ; and as shee is a false and Antichristian church , shee can never make true Officers and Ministers of Iesus Christ ; and absolutely denies , that conversion and confirmation , and building up in the wayes of God , are wrought by the Ministry of the church of England ; for how ( saith he ) can they build them up in that which they themselves are ignorant of , and enemies unto ? for as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses , so doe these men also resist the truth , &c. and further asserteth , that as hee hath taken paines by the word of God , and demonstrable arguments grounded thereupon , to prove the church of England antichristian ; so hee promiseth to all the world , that hee will in the strength of the Lord of Hosts , for ever separate from Church , Ministry , and Worship of England , and all and every one of them , as Antichristian and false : And concludes , that all the Ministers of the church of England are not true Ministers of Christ , but false and Antichristian Ministers , and that our Religion neither is the true Religion , nor that it leads men the true way to salvation : And affirmes , that hee groundedly and absolutely denies , that either the Church of England is or ever was a true Church ; innumerable more such sentences might be produced out of this Pamphlet to this effect , and from many such premises as these , hee exhorts all good people that are in the bosome of the Church of England , as they love their own inward peace , and spirituall joy , to withdraw their spirituall obedience and subjection from her . Now here againe I appeale to all judicious Christians , what the Devill the Accuser of the brethren could have spake more raylingly and falsely against the faithfull servants of God , both Ministers and people , then what Iohn L●lburne in the name of all those of his Fraternity hath uttered against them all . Surely , if any Enemies , Persecutors , Raylers , and Revilers of the people of God , and false Accusers ever lived upon the earth , they are those of the congr●gationall way ; and therefore they are no S●ints . Ye● , when they write most mildly against the Presbyterians , they call them Lyons , Beares , Wolves , Tygers , and in their ordinary language in towne and countrey , they never see almost any Minister pass● by them , but they call them Baals Priests , the lims of Antichrist , the Antichristian brood , the Devils Ministers , Presbytyrants , with a thousand other words of con●umely ; and of all their Presbyterian brethren , both Scots and English , they speake of them most shamefully upon all occasions , terming them sonnes of earth , sinners , carnall people , enemies of Christ Jesus and his Kingdom ; nay , they revile us in the open streets when we passe by them ; and all that I now say , the Independents themselves cannot deny to be most truly related by mee ; and their very bookes and all their Pamphlets are now in the hands of the people , and daily read by them , and they all can witnesse for mee , that I have wronged them in nothing ; by all which , that part of my Minor is sufficiently proved , that all the Independents are notorious Raylers , Revilers , and false Accusers , and therefore no Saints , nor good Daemons , but such as ought to be separate from and not to be communicated with in holy things , as not formed into a church or churches after the New-Testament forme , which ought to consist of all visible Saints . And that they have caused divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine of Christ , is also apparent , and that from the great rents , schismes and factions they have causelessely made amongst their brethren in church and state , having neither Precept nor President in the whole Booke of God for any of their practises , and proceedings in their new congregations , and therefore this truth also being by the sad experience of all men notoriously knowne , wee have a command to shun them and take heed of them , as of a company of Seducers and false Teachers , who so long as they persevere and continue in these their ungodly wayes , they proclaime themseves to be no Saints nor good Daemons , but a Generation of vipers and serpents , and such as all godly soules ought to have no communion with , whatsover their pretences of holinesse and sanctity be . And that they are notorious covenant breakers , it is most evident and apparent to all that will not wilfully shut their eyes ; for they have entred into a solemne covenant and oath , and that made in the presence of God , to labour for a through reformation of Religion in the Kingdome of England , and Ireland , in Doctrine , Worship and Discipline , according to the word of God , and the example of the best reformed Churches ; and in expresse words also , they have vowed and covenanted in the presence of Almighty God , the searcher of all hearts , with a true intention to performe the same , as they shall answer it at the great day , that they will without respect of persons indeavour the extirpation of Popery , Prelacy , Superstition , Heresie , Schisme , Prophanenesse , and whatsoever shall be found contrary to sound doctrine and the power of godlinesse , lest they partake in their sinnes , and thereby be in danger to receive of their plagnes . They ▪ have vowed also , with all faithfulnesse to indeavour the discovery of all such as have beene , or shall bee Incendiaries , Malignants , or evill Instruments by hindring the reformation of Religion , dividing the King from his people , or one of the Kingdomes from an other , or making of any factions , or parties amongst the people contrary to th●s league and covenant . And all the Independent Ministers in the Reverend Assembly did faithfully promise unto their brethren , and under their owne hands by writing confirme it , that they would preach such doctrines publickly only as tended to Faith , Repentance , and Salvation , and that they would not trouble the people with any of those controversies concerning Discipline and Church-government , till they saw what Plat-forme of Discipline the Parliament and the Assembly should set downe ; and solemnly promised also by such a time to bring in their modell ; and others of the Ministers of the congregationall way when they came out of New-England , entring into serious discourse with some of their brethren the Ministers of the Church of England , that had suffered much under the Prelates tyrannie , and that indeed had indured the brunt , and undergone the heate of the day of their cruelty and persecution , and of whom they had experience for their faithfulnesse and constancy in the truth ; I say some of these fugitive Ministers after their returne , entring into communication with them , and demanding of them what Discipline and Government they intended now in place of the Prelaticall usurpation to establish and set up , for answer they told them , that their indeavour God assisting them , should be to set up a Government according to the word of God as nigh as they could , after the example of the best reformed churches , in Scotland , France , Germany , and Low-countries ; whereupon they immediately replying , said , if this be indeed your reall intention , then in the presence of God wee give you the right hand of Fellowship , resolving to stand to you and by you faithfully unto the death . All that I now relate can be proved by an Iliad of witnesses . Notwithstanding all these Covenants , Promises , and serious ingagements , and that in the presence of God , they have all of them blake all these covenants and promises , made both to God and man , and have violated them all and every one of them , and have not only neglected to bring in their modell of government , though promised by them , and againe and againe urged to it , but made factions , rents and schismes in the Church , and preached up the congregationall way , and brought an odium and hatred of the Presbyterie amongst the people , and most shamefully continually inveighd against their brethren the Presbyterians , and all their proceedings : and have laboured also with all their might and power to hinder the reformation of Religion , and to breake the union betweene the two nations , Scots and English , and to bring in a toleration of all Religions under the name of liberty of conscience , which tendeth to nothing but profanesse and all licentiousnesse , which is against the power of godlinesse , and against their solemne vow and covenant made before God and men ; and therefore all they that doe these things , as all the Il-dependents daily doe , they are no Saints in Gods Dialect , nor good Daemons , but a Generation of wicked and ungodly men , with whom all good Christians ought to have no communion with in holy things , as not being churches after the New Testament form . But will some say , though some of the Independents should bee guilty of all these crimes , yet they are not all to be condemned as equally guilty . For answer , here I shall make use of my Brother Burtons Learning , pag. 16. where indeavouring to make all the Conformists guilty of Persecution , hee hath these words , the most of the Conformists ( saith he ) if not all , have had their hands lesse or more , either by acting or assenting , or by silence or connivence in the persecution of those godly Ministers and people which stood out against the Antichristian usurpation over their consciences , inferring from thence that they were equally guilty . I have made choyce of his words , though it bee a truth and doctrine set downe in holy Scripture , and confirmed by the light of nature , and by the practise of all nations , both Jewish , Christian and Heathenish , who adjudge Consentors , Connivers , and Abettors , and all the complices in any treason , conspiracy , wickednesse and malefice as equally guilty as the Actors , Plotters , or Contrivers , as all Histories both divine and humane doe declare ; and for some examples out of holy Scriptures wee find that although Iezabel was by name the principall agent in killing and persecuting of the Prophets , yet all the Israelites are accused as guilty , because they connived and assented by their silence unto their death ; and therefore the holy Prophet saith , they have slaine thy Prophets , and have brake downe thy Altars ; and so all the Jewes are adjudged guilty of the death of Christ , as well as Herod and Pontius Pilate , as consenters and allowers of it ; and so Christ himselfe accuseth all the Jewes as guilty of the death of all the holy Prophets , in that they allowed of their Fathers doings , by building the Monuments of the Prophets , by which their action our Saviour saith that they allowed of their doings , and in expresse words chargeth them as equally guilty ; the same hee said of them concerning the death of Iohn the Baptist , ye saith hee have done to him whatsoever seemed good unto you ; whereas it is related in the Gospel , that it was Herods act , who only is said to have commanded that Iohn should be beheaded ; yet this wickednesse is laid upon all the Jewes as connivers , and by their silence consenters unto it ; and Paul in like manner accuseth all the Gentiles in the first chapter of the Epistle to the Romans , and all the Jewes in the second chapter , of all those sinnes hee layes to their charge , though they were not many of them actors and committers of these haiuous crimes , but in that they connived at them , and by their silence allowed of them or hindred them not , or by punishing the offend●rs prevented them not , which was the sin of old Ely in not punishing his sonnes for their wickednesse ; So that by all these examples out of the word of truth and by my brother Burtons own words and learning , it is apparently evident tha● all such as by their silence connive and assent unto any wickednesse , persecution , rayling , or covenant-breaking , they are as ●q●ally guilty as the actors and contrivers : Now when all the I● ▪ ●●pendents as well Ministers as people in any of th●se way●s or in all of them are guil●y of rayling , reviling , seducing , and Covenant-breaking and making divisions contrary unto the Doctrine of Christ , and of hindring Reformation , and of breaking the Union between the Nations of England and Scotland in as much as in them lies , it followeth th●y are neither visible Saints nor good Daemons ; and that those Churches that consist of such Members , are not true formed Churches after the New Testament forme ; for they are to consist of visi●le Saints , and therefore they ough● to be separated from ; and all good Christians ought to have no communion with such Churches in holy things ▪ as being mixt Congregations and tagg ragg , and such Saints as ●ob would not set with the doggs of his flock . And this shall suffice to have spoke for the proof of my fi●st Argument . My second Argument is this : Those Congregations and Assemblies whose Members contrary to the example of all the holy Prophets and Servants of God , who were ever humble in their own eyes , continually , falsly , and pharisaically and upon all occasions boast themselves of their owne righteousnesse ( so much condemned in holy writ ) calling themselves the pretious and holy servants of God , the godly party , the praying people , the onely men of Gods right hand , the Saints , the generation of the Just , hating and despising their poor brethren , and are ever plotting against them , accounting them as Heathens and Infidels , and departing from them as more holy then they ; all such , I say , are neither visible Saints nor good Daemons , as being by Christ himselfe and the holy Scripture condemned and therefore are not true Churches after the New Testament ●orm ▪ whose Members ought to be all visible Saints ; but are mixt Congregations with whom truly godly souls ought not to communicate in holy things . But all the Congregations and Assemblies of the Il-dependents are such as consist of such Members : Ergo , they are neither visible Saints nor good Daemons , and therefore ought not to be communicated with in holy things , but to be separated from , by all the truly godly souls . For the Major proposition no man can deny it , now if the Minor be confirmed , then there is no man that will doubt of the truth of the conclusion ; for that will necessarily insue from the premises . The parts of the Minor are these : The first , That it was ever the practice of all the holy servants of God , to be humble in their owne eyes . The second , That God did ever condemne such as justified them ▪ selves and boasted of their own righteousnesse . The third , That the Il-dependents do both falsly and pharisaically boast themselves when they call themselves the pretious and holy servants of God , the godly party , the praying people , the onely men of Gods right hand , the Saints and the Generation of the just . The fourth , That they do despise their Christian brethren and separate from them as being more holy then they ; By all which they declare themselves to be neither Saints indeed nor good Daemons , nor a Church or Churches after the New Testament forme , and therefore ought to be separated from . I shall now prove all these parts in order beginning with the first , by which the conclusion will be the more obvious to every judicious Reader , and I hope , to many of the Il-dependents themselves if they will seriously and without partiality weigh all things : And for the evincing of that , I will begin with Abraham the Father of all the faithfull , who saith , Gen. 18. ver . 27. Behold now I have taken upon me to speake unto the Lord , which am but dust and ashes . Here we see Abraham had no high though●s of himselfe , nor of his own righteousnesse , which example of his was left to all his children in succeeding ages , to teach them to esteeme meanly of themselves and not pharisaically to boast of their owne holinesse . Jacob likewise in 32. of Genesis ver . 9 , 10. speaking unto the Lord saith , O God of my Father Abraham , and God of my Father Isaac , &c. I am not worthy of any the least of the mercyes and of the truth which thou hast shewed unto thy servant , &c. Here likewise we see what a low esteem he had of himselfe . The same we finde in Ezra the 9. ver . 6. who in the name of all the people , said , O my God I am ashamed and blush to lift up my face to thee , my God : for our iniquities are increased over our heads and our trespasse or guiltinesse is grown up to the heavens , &c. And so in the ninth of Nehemiah , ver . 1. &c. The children of Israel were assembled with fasting and with sackclothes and with earth upon them ; they were all in a posture of humility as the whole Chapter declareth . Job also that righteous and upright man , in the 42. chapter ver . 6. saith , Wherefore I abhorre my selfe , and repent in dust and ashes . He had no bigg thoughts of himselfe and his own holinesse . The same we see in Isaiah that great and holy Prophet , who in the 64. chapter ver . 6. in the name of all the people of God in his age he saith , But we are all as an uncleane thing , and all our righteousnesses as filthy raggs , and we all do ●ade as a leafe , and our iniquities like the wind have taken us away , &c. They had no proud conceipts of their own righteousnesse , nor vaunted not of their holinesse and sanctity . Neither was Daniel in any other posture , though a man greatly beloved of the Lord , chapter 10. ver . 11. Yet he in the 9. chapter in the name of all the people humbly prostrated himself , Seeking unto the Lord by prayer and supplication with fasting and sackcloth and ashes . Saying , O Lord the great and dreadfull God , &c. We have sinned and have committed iniquity , and have done wickedly and have rebelled , ver . 3 , 4 , 5 , &c. And so we might run through all the Old Testament and finde all the Prophets and holy men of God ever confessing their own vilenesse , and never boasting of their own righteousness . The Publican also and the Prodigall had learned this lesson , the one of which said Luke 15. ver . 19. I am not worthy to be called thy sonne : the other standing afar of , Luke 18. ver . 13. would not so much as lift up his eyes unto Heaven , but smote upon his brest saying , God be mercyfull unto me a sinner . All the faithful , and truly holy people , and godly party , both under the Old and New Covenant , had learned this lesson of self-denyall ; and Paul acknowledged himselfe the greatest of all sinners , crying out of himselfe , Rom. 7 ▪ O miserable man that I am , who shall deliver me from this body of death ! They had no overtowring conceipts or thoughts of their own holinesse and righteousnesse , nor never boasted themselves that they were the onely holy people and the generation of the Just : That was the practice of the Justiciaries , yea of the hypocrites and wicked under the Law and of the Pharisees in the time of Christ , as we may see in Isaiah 65. ver . 5. who said , Stand by thy self , come not neer to me , for I am holier then thou , &c. The Pharisee also stood and prayed thus with himself ; God , I thank thee , that I am not as other men are , extortioners , unjust , adulterers , or even as this Publican ; I fast twice a week , and I give tythes of all that I possesse , &c. By which it may evidently appear , that those that boast themselves of their own righteousnesse and holinesse treade not in the steps of father Abraham and all the truly holy Prophets and people of God in all ages , but in this their so doing they deviate from ●heir example , and imitate the example of the wicked Pharisees and old Justiciaries , and therefore are justly to be blamed and found fault with as transgressors against both the precept of God , and example of Christ ( who said ) Learn of me for I am humble and meek , Mat. 11. & against the President of all the faithful which is the second part of my Minor , which is to prove , That God did ever condemn such as justified themselves and boasted of their own righteousnesse , as is manifest from that place in Isaiah above quoted in the 65. chap. ver . 5. where the Lord saith , that such as gloryed they were more holy then others , were as smoke in his nose and fire that burneth all the day . And in the 16 , of Luke ver . 15. He said unto the Pharisees , Ye are they which justifie your selves before men , but God knowes your hearts ; for that which is highly esteemed amongst men , is abomination in the sight of God. And in the 18. of Luke the place above cited ver . 9. He in a Parable reproved certain which trusted in themselves as being righteous , and despised others . And told them plainly ver . 14. That the Publican that meanly esteemed of himselfe , went down to his house justified rather then the other ; For every one ( saith Christ ) that exalteth himselfe , shall be abased , and he that humbleth himselfe shall be exalted . Yea , it is the command of Christ Matth. 16 , to all such as will be his Disciples ver . 24. That they should deny themselves and take up their Crosse dayly and follow him : Now self-denyall and boasting of their own holinesse cannot stand together , for Saint Peter in his first Epistle chap. 5. commands all Christians to be subject one to another , and to be clothed with hum●lity , saying , That God resists the proud , and gives grace to the humble ; Humble your selves therefore ( saith he ) under the mighty hand of God , that he may exalt you in due time . The same lesson doth Saint James teach us chap. 4. v. 6. And if we look through the whole Scriptures we shal find , That God looketh unto those onely that are of a poor and contrite spirit , and that tremble at his word , Isaiah 66. ver . 2. The same also the Lord saith Isaiah the 57. v. 15. Thus saith the Lord the high and holy One , that inhabiteth eternity , whose Name is holy , I will dwell in the high and holy place , with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit , to revive the spirit of the humble , and to revive the heart of the contrite ones . David had learned this lesson also , who in the 51. P salme saith , A broken and a contrite heart O Lord thou wilt not despise . But for all such as pharisaically boast themselves of their own righteousnesse God will despise and resist : especially when they come far short of the Pharisees righteousnesse who fasted ordinarily twice or thrice a week , and gave tythes of all they had , and were very bountifull and charitable to the poor and did many other things praise worthy , whereas all the Il-dependents are so far from giving tythes of all they have , as they would not willingly that any other should give them writing books to the contrary and that bitter ones ; and for the many other acts of holinesse in the Pharisees , as fasting & deeds of charity , the world knows they are not so frequent in them towards their poor brethren that dissent from them : but in running from sea to land , and from one place to another to make Proselytes and seduce the people , they are very like the Pharisees , and in boasting and glorying of their own righteousnesse , in this they ●qualise if not exceed the Pharisees and Justiciaries of old , and if they repent not , God will have a controversie against them , for God resists the proud and will give grace unto the humble , and in the 30 ▪ of the Proverbs ver . 72. God saith there , That there is a generation pure in their own eyes , and yet they are not purged from their filthynesse : Gods people were ever humble , but the Il-dependents are not , as will by and by appeare in the sequell . The third part now to be proved : viz. That the Il-dependents do both falsly and pharisaically boast themselves when they call themselves the pretious and holy servants of God , &c. Now that they boast and glory of their own holinesse , and that they are the onely people , and the godly party , all that are acquainted with their language and have heard their Sermons , and have seen their books , can bear witnesse with me of the truth of that I now charge them with , neither can the Il-dependents themselves deny it . And that they falsly glory and boast of their own righteousnesse , holinesse , and sanctity , is my taske now to prove , which by the grace of God I will do running through all and every severall branch of their gloriations . And to begin with the first , when they call themselves the onely pretious servants of God , and the godly party , in this their glorying , I say , they as falsly as Pharisaically boast , which will evidently appear , if we duly examine who in Gods dialect are a holy people and the onely holy servants of God. In the 1 of the Corinthians chap. 7. ver . 34. The Apostle there describes who are the holy people , they ( saith he ) are such , as care not for the things of the world , but for the things of the Lord , how they may be holy in body and spirit ; They were such , as being bought with a price , studyed , how they might glorifie God in their bodyes and in their spirits which were the Lords . 1 Cor. 6. ver . 20. And how they might cleanse themselves from all filthynesse of the flesh and spirit , perfecting holinesle in the fear of God. 2 Cor. 7. ver . 1. The holy servants of the Lord , are such as present their bodies a living sacrifice , holy , acceptable unto God as their reasonable service , and that from the consideration of Gods great mercyes unto them . Rom. 12. ver . 1. They pressed toward the mark to the high calling of God in Jesus Christ . Phil. 3. 14. Whose conversation was in Heaven . ver . 20. Those Saints minded not earthly things , but being contented with food and rayment , they esteemed godlinesse the greatest gain . 1 Tim. 4. Gold and silver ( saith Peter ) I have none . Acts 3. He studied onely to be holy , and regarded not the world . The life of all the godly and holy party was above in heaven , according to that of Solomon Prov. 10. They were not groveling upon the earth , nor regarded not the things of this life , they were changed from that they were before , they were now no longer conformable to this world , but they were transformed by the renewing of their mind , that they might prove what is that good , that acceptable will of God. Rom. 12. ver . 2. According to that of Paul , Eph. 23. 24. They were renewed in the spirit of their mind , they had put on the new man , which after God is created in righteousnesse and true holinesse , Yea they were renewed in knowledge after the Image of him that created them . Coloss . 3. ver . 10. In a word , all the truly holy and godly party have an universall change wrought in them , their understandings witts and affections are changed they are all heavenly , the whole frame of their lives and conversations are changed , they are all heavenly ; so that they by all their actions declare they are such as really minde nothing but heavenly things , they are mortified men , they seeke not great things , nor they intangle not themselves with earthly businesses , they onely mind heavenly things , where Christ sitteth at the right hand of God , Coloss . 1 , 2 , 3. No sooner was Levi called from the receipt of custome , but hee relinquished and left the world and followed Christ . The same did Zacheus , distributing that hee had liberally to the poore , and manifesting to the world , by giving full satisfaction to all men that could say they were damnified by him , that now hee minded nothing but heavenly things , the things of the Lord , how he might be holy in body and spirit which were the Lords ; and this was the practise of all the holy servants of God in all ages , they were heavenly minded , lowly , humble , meeke , they were of one mind , having compassion one of an other , they loved as brethren , they were pittifull and courteous , they rendred not evill for evill , or rayling for rayling , but contrariwise blessing , knowing that they were thereunto called , that they should inherit a blessing , they refrayned their tongues from evill , and their lips spake no guile , they eschewed evill , and did good , they sought peace and ensued it , 1 Pet. 3. verse 8 9 , 10 , 11. they loved without dissimulation , they abhorred that which was evill , and cleaved to that which was good , in honour they preferred one an other , Romans 12. verse 9. in Lowlinesse of mind they esteemed of others better then themselves , Phil. 2. ver . 2. 3. they wete all heavenly minded men , who regarded no worldly things , neither doe we ever reade in all the sacred Scriptures , that any of the holy Prophets or Saints of old , were taken up with the world , or aspired to the Honours and Dignities of the same , but chose rather to suffer affliction with the people of God , then to injoy the pleasures of sinne for a while ; yea , they esteemed the reproach of Christ greater riches then all the treasures of Egypt , they chose rather to wander about in deserts , in sheeps skins , and goats skins , naked , despised , and contemned , in the caves and dens of the beasts of the earth , then to dwell in the greatest affluency of worldly things , they slighted all the world , and all the Glory of it , & exposed themselves to any miseri●s and hazards , rather then in the least worldly pleasure to insnare their affections in things below , as the eleventh chapter of the Hebrew●s doth fully declare . Now if wee looke upon the generality of the Il-dependents , wee shall find them void of all the above-named gra●es , as being men most addicted to the world and worldly things , and that when shee is in her old age , so that it is ordinarily observed , that howsoever they call themselves the holy people and godly party , there is none more covetous , none are more taken up with the pleasures and bravery of the world , none more envious and malicious , none more proud , haughty , & supercilious , none more greedy and having then they , & none more worldly ; so that ye shal find them at the receipt of custom through the kingdom , meer Toule-gatherers , which was amongst the Saints of old counted a trade incompatible with holinesse and godlinesse ; for Publicans generally were all esteemed the worst and wickedest of men ; yet I say , the Independents at this day for the universality of them , are taken notice of for their worldly mindednesse , so that through the whole Realme you shall find them in all the Excise offices , in all the custome houses , and in all the gainefull places and imployments by Sea and Land , in all the Committees , in all gainefull offices in the Army , and through all the Courts of the Kingdome ; neither are there any that aspire more to all places of honour in all parts of the Land then they , and make more use of their friends , by running , riding and letters , for the hindring of any other but themselves , in attaining places of Dignity and Emolument wheresoever they are vacant , as daily experience teacheth us , and as it can be proved by a cloud of witnesses ; yea , so notorious are their covetous and ambitious designes to all men , that the very Malignants can say , that they have got all the rich plunder into their possessions , and have made themselves wealthy with the spoyles of others , and especially those that came out of New England have beene taken notice of amongst others to have bought things plundered of mighty worth , at small rates , and have sent them over thither , in so much that the very Cavaliers , and Gentlemen of good ranke and place have told mee , that if ever they got the day , they would make a voyage into New-England , to demand their plundered goods of them . And it is well knowne , what vast summes of money they have gathered through the Kingdome of godly people , under pretence of relieving the poore Saints there , and for the sending over boyes , and young children , and so they have all of that party bestirred themselves in getting of monies under the pretext of good uses , and buying of plundered Goods , as if they had studied nothing but the getting of earthly things ; so that wheresoever there is any money stirring , or any gainefull offices , thither doe the Independents fly , like a company of flyes upon a gald Horses backe : yea , their very Ministers have got all the gainefull Lectures through towne and countrey , many of them having two or three very profitable ones at once , the least of which by report , would maintaine two or three Families , when as many more learned then themselves cannot get bread to put in their childrens bellies , so that they are generally cryed up , and other godly and painefull Ministers are despised through their calumnies and craft ; so that all men may easily perceive , that the world and they are very good friends , whereas the holy people of old cared not for the things of the world ; and for bravery and gallantry , & all manner of voluptuousnesse they exceed all men ; yea the very Daughters of Ierusalem never minc'd it more , Isay the 3. then the Independents wives and daughters doe , nor never injoyed greater pleasures then they , in so much that it is one of the infallible notes of the Il-dependents , both men and women , to exceed all others in bravery and delicacy ; never was there such a gallant Generation of Saints since the world began ; yea , their very Ministers , and their Dames go rather like Ruffians , then the holy & mortified people of God , & matrons of old , in so much that some of the Il-dependents themselves were heard say , when my last booke came out in my owne defence against Iohn Lilburne , where I made my selfe merry with them , at the which so many of them stormed against mee with indignation , at that time I say , some of the Independents were heard to say , that what Doctor Bastwicke had writ merrily was too too true : for the truth is say they , they are too much given to their pleasures , and to good cheere , & many of them are abominably proud and covetous , and gaping after honours and riches , and are so unbridled in their expressions , and so disorderly in their carriages , and many times so insolent in their behaviours , as they justly give offence and scandall , both in word and deed , to many that otherwise would have harboured better opinions and conceits of them ; and that that I now say , and a great deale more , can be proved ; and amongst other things they related , that they being present at the Committee of examinations , never saw any man more injuriously abused by any then I was ; in so much , that they admired my patience , I could carry my selfe at that time so calmely towards them . So that if need be , I shall be able to produce good witnesses from amongst the Il-dependents themselves , that by their testimony shall make good this my charge against them for their worldly mindednesse , and extreme pride and insolency , and their unchristian dealing towards their brethren ; I shall not want the witnesses also of some , and they of good quality , that have fallen off from walking with them , who are ready to attest , that the sole and chiefe moving cause of their disliking their companies , was for the very reasons I have now specified , who will affirme , that they could not continue in so costly aud chargeable a Religion , they having found a cheaper way to Heaven , it will also be proved , that whereas many before they came acquainted with them , and to be of their Fellowship , they could for three or foure hundred pounds a yeare maintaine themselves and their families , and doe a great deale of good to many distressed people , and indigent and persecuted Christians ; but since they grew into acquaintance with those of the congregationall way , what with the entertainment of them and their party , and presents , and what with their frequent relieving of those of that Fraternity , it hath stood them in eight hundred , nine hundred , a thousand pounds yearely ; yea , some times more , so that it has beene admired how they have subsisted : and it is well knowne , that one of their chiefe designes is to get into their societies , the chiefest and richest people every where , and especially the more honourable women , by meanes of which , they exceedingly strengthen their party : for those poore creatures not diving into the subtilty of their proceedings , and being carried on with a blind zeale , conceive they can never doe too much for them ; and therefore upon all occasions , stirre up their Husbands and friends to advance the cause ( as they call it ) and to the uttermost with their power and purses to promote it ; and hence arise those factions on all sides , every one of them in their particular places seeking the maintenance of their party ; hence it is , that ▪ there are so many dayes amongst those of the congregationall way , set apart , for the seeking of God ( for that is their language ) for the gaining of some great & wealthy personages into their new gathered Churches , which they call the conversion of them , when indeed it is nothing but the perverting , and misleading of them into the by-wayes of their errors . I could if need were , instance many a Godly Family , that were knowne to bee of approved Integrity , Piety and Holinesse , before these men appeared in the world , and yet are now reputed the holy people and Saints , and onely for being of the congregationall way . The truth of this thing is so apparent , as some of the Independents themselves have uttered it , that they well perceive , that many of their Ministers seeke themselves , whiles they pretend they seeke the good of others ; yea , they seeke the world whiles they perswade others to abandon it . Saint John sayes , 1 Epist , Love not the world , nor the things that are in the world ; for he that loves the world ( saith hee ) the love of the Father is not in him . It is an impossible thing in Gods Dialect to serve two Masters , they cannot serve God and Mammon : for the friendship of the world is enmity with God , saith Saint Iames. Now then when it is evident by all the practises of the Independents , that they for the greatest part of them gape after the world , and are chiefly imployed in those things that worldly men are taken up in , as in biting and devouring one an other , in hatred , variance , emulations , wrath , strife , seditions , heresies , envyings , &c. It is manifest they are not the only holy & spirituall people , if Pauls doctrine be true , Gal. 5. ver . 15. 20 , 21. and that the Independents are too too busie in these imployments , daily and sad experience teacheth us , neither is there any truly iudicious and impartiall Independent , that can gainesay what I now write . Besides , the holy people of old , as Abraham , Jacob , Ioshua , Cornelius , &c. were such as with their whole houses served the Lord , they would have none in their Families but such as were of one and the same Religion , they would neither connive at , indulge or tolerate any Religion in their houses , but that God had appointed , as all the holy Scriptures testifie , they at their uprising , and lying down , at their goings out and comings in , Deut. 6. and Deut. 11. instructed their children and families in the statutes and commandements of the Lord ; they with their Men-servants , and Maid-servants , and the stranger within their Gates , Exod. 20. tooke care that all of them under their roofes should sanctifie the Sabbath , and keepe all the commandements of the Lord ; they thought it their duty and their place , to see that they should serve the Lord with one shoulder , and with one lip , they left them not every one to the liberty of his owne conscience , but according to the expresse rule exacted obedience from them , to the commandements of the Lord : and this they esteemed to bee the holinesse well pleasing unto God , not their owne fained conceits . Now in this thing also most of the Il-dependents are fayling in their duty , as can be proved , who leave their Families to their owne Genins in the serving of God , so that they may goe whether they please on the Lords day , and bee of what Religion and Sect they like best ; and therefore they follow not the example of the Godly Party , and holy Saints , and servants of God of old . In all these regards , and many more that might be specified , it is apparantly evident , that those Churches of the congregationall way doe not consist of all Saints , as being but mixt assemblies as well as the congregations of their brethren that they separate from , and therefore they are not the only holy people , as not being crucified unto the world , and the world to them , as the holy people of old were , when they are wholy for the world ; and this shall suffice to have spake concerning the first title they dignifie themselves with above their brethren , calling themselves in all their preachings and writings the holy people , and godly party , whereas the truly holy people and Godly Party were ever humble in their owne eyes , and thought basely of themselves , counting themselves wretched and miserable sinners . Neither doth the other title truly and onely belong unto them , when they call themselves the praying people : for our Saviour hath said , Not every one that saith Lord Lord , shall enter into the kingdome of Heaven , but hee that prayeth according to his will , for so Saint Iohn asserteth , in his first Epistle , chap. 5. verse 14. this is the confidence wee have in him , that if wee aske any thing according to his will hee heareth us . So that it is not the meere praying of any people that will procure audience from God , but the praying according to Gods will ; for Christ hath said , Matth. 6. that men are not heard for their much babbling , for that is a thing displeasing unto him , but in that they pray according to his direction and will ; so that of necessity it followeth , they onely are the praying people properly so called , that in all their supplications and requests follow the rule set downe by Christ himselfe the only Prophet of his Church , and who knew best what the will of God was , and what the meaning of the Spirit of God was ; for he onely it is , that must helpe our infirmities in prayer , for wee of our selves know not what to ask , Rom. 8. It wil not be amisse therefore briefly to run over some of those Petitions , that the Lord hath set downe for an everlasting rule for all the truly praying people , to square their prayers by , the which whosoever in prayer swarveth from , they cannot properly be called the truly praying people . Our Saviour teacheth us , Matth. the sixth , vers . 9 ▪ 10 ▪ 〈◊〉 13 ▪ saying , when ye pray , say Hallowed be thy name . So that they that pray aright desire that the name of God may be glorified , and in so praying they desire that whatsoever hinders the glorifying and hallowing of Gods name , may be taken away and removed ; now the toleration of all Religions under pretence of liberty of conscience , which all the Independents not onely pray for , but with all their might labour for , will not make for the hallowing and glorifying of Gods name , but greatly to his dishonour , and the unsanctifying of his holy name , and be a meanes of bringing in of profanesse and atheisme , and all manner of abominations , and damnable heresies , as the very connivence at them already teaches all men : therefore they that pray , that as there is but one God , one truth , and one true Religion , so that no other may bee tolerated , pray according to his will , and are the onely true praying people ; and those that pray for liberty of conscience , and the toleration of them all , as the Independents doe , are not the onely true praying people , whatsoever they pretend unto the deluded world , for they pray not according to Gods will. Againe , the truly praying people are taught to say thy Kingdome come , in which Petition they are instructed to pray , not onely that the Kingdome of Glory may come , but the Kingdome of Grace , viz. that the Gospel may be everywhere published , preached and set up ; and to that end that God would send faithfull Labourers into his Vineyard and Harvest ; and in so praying , they earnestly desire , that whatsoever hinders the preaching of the Gospel , as the toleration of all Religions doth , may be taken away ; now the Independents pray for a toleration , and for liberty of conscience , and labour as much as in them lyes the hinderance of sending faithfull Labourers into Gods Harvest , and much discourage those that are already sent ▪ and hinder also the setting up of that Discipline and Government that would most make for the advancement of Christs Kingdome , and for the coming of the same ; therefore they are not the truly praying people , for they pray not according to Gods will. Againe ▪ the true praying people are taught to say thy will bee● done on earth as it is in heaven , and in their so praying they are instructed to pray for the removall of all such things as are against the good will and pleasure of God , and doe hinder the doing of his will. Now God hath revealed in his will , that as there is but one God and one Mediator , so there is but one Faith , one Baptism and one Religion , and that all the people of God should bring up their children and families in the nurture , knowledge and fear of this one and onely true God ▪ as Abraham , Jacob , Joshua , and Cornelius , and all the faithfull and dear servants of God in all ages have ever done , and that they should instruct their children and housholds in the Statutes and Commandments of the Lord at their lying down and rising up , at their goings out and commings in : Deut. 6. & Deut. 11. and Eph. 6. v. 4. And that both they and their men-servants and maide servants , and the stranger within their gates , should sanctifie Gods Sabboths and keep all his Commandments , Exod. 20. And this is the duty of all parents and masters of families , and this they are for ever tyed unto by the revealed will of God , and that they should not spare their nighest allies and kindred that should labour or indeavour to bring in any other Religion then that God hath appointed in his holy and blessed word : Den. 13. and this they that pray aright and according to Gods will , pray may be done to the end of the world , and that both they and their families and all the families of the earth may continue to instruct their housholds and families according to the commandments of God which is his revealed will , and that whatsoever shall hinder the doing of this will of God may be removed abominated and abhorred , as the toleration of all Religions will do , and that pretended liberty of conscience , as hourly experience teacheth us ; for by this both the duties of the first and second tables are neglected on all sides : for neither fathers nor masters of families can performe or discharge their duties , if a Toleration of all Religions should once be set up ; for then both servants and children , and the strangers within their houses , should every one of them be left to the liberty of their consciences without control● , so that they may go whither they will , and imbrace what Religion or Heresie they please ; and therefore it concernes all men more earnestly to pray for the setting up and establishing of the onely true Religion , and the rooting out of all false and erroneous Religions ; for in this they do according to Gods will : And they onely that thus pray , are the true praying people ; But the Il ▪ dependents pray that there own wils may be done , & not Gods will ; for they pray for a Toleration of all Religions , and that against the revealed will of God who hath declared his will to the contrary : Deut. 13. Yea Christ himselfe in his Epistles to the Church of Pergamos and Thyatyra : Rev. 2. ver . 12. &c. 18. sheweth his high displeasure against them for but suffering and conniving at those false doctrines that were taught amongst them . Yea in this blessed prayer of Christ we are taught to pray not only that the will of God may be done on earth , but he farther addeth by way of example and for a patern of our imitation , that it may be done on earth as it is in heaven : Now all those that are Christs Disciples , know , that there is but one Religion in Heaven , and one way of worship there , as there is but one God ; they therefore that pray for a Toleration of all Religions as the Il-dependents do , are not the onely true praying people , seeing they would have the will of God otherwise done on earth then it is done in heaven ; for in heaven there is but one Religion ; and therefore they pray contrary to the will of God when they pray for liberty of conscience and a Toleration of all Religions . Again the truly praying people are taught to pray lead us not into temptation , but deliver us from evill ; therefore they pray against the toleration of all Religions , which is not onely a great temptation and an occasion of evill , but the very sourse and fountain of all errours , schismes , heresies , and of all abominations , and of all the evills both of sin and punishment , that can light upon any Church , Nation or Kingdome , as we may see by the example of the Churches of Pergamos , and Thyatyra , to the which the Lord saith , Repent , or else I will come unto thee quickly , and will fight against thee with the sword of my mouth . And I will cast her into a bed of great tribulation , and will kill her with death , and all the Churches shall know , that I am he which searcheth the reines and hearts , and I will give unto every one of you according to your works . I say therefore from very good ground , that a Toleration of all Religions is not onely a great temptation , but the greatest evill in the world , and would be a meanes of bringing plagues and judgements upon the three Kingdomes , and a distraction and disorder amongst all the people and a confusion of all things ; against all the which as so many temptations and capitall evills , all truly godly praying people if they will pray according to Gods will , ought incessantly to put up their dayly supplications , as they desire the favour of God and the removeall of his judgements , and in their so praying they do but their duty and according to the will of God : Therefore when the Il-dependents pray for a Toleration of all Religions under the name of liberty of conscience , and labour for it , and hinder with all their power the setting up of the onely true Religion and worke of Reformation , and the setting up of such a Government in Christs Kingdome , which is his Church as he hath revealed in his blessed will , and they have also covenanted to bring in , in their so doing they neither pray that Gods name may be hallowed , nor that his Kingdome may come , nor that his will may be done , nor that they may not be led into temptation , and be delivered from evill ; and therefore they pray not aright , and are not as they falsly boast themselves the only true praying people ; for they pray not according to Gods will. Now when those Churches of the Congregationall way consist of such kinde of praying Members , it is apparently manifest they are a mixt Generation of men , and not the Generation of the just , nor the men of Gods right hand , which is another title they falsly and pharisaically also claime and challeng unto themselves , as they did the former , as will by and by appear upon due examination and discussion of the true sense of that expression . For those that are the men and people of Gods right hand properly so called , are such , as with all their might stand up in defence of Gods true Religion , and earnestly contend for the faith once delivered unto the Saints , Jude 2 , 3. and are not onely ever ready to lay down their lives for that ancient faith , but with all their power to fight for it to the last drop of their blood , in opposition to all errours , superstition , heresies , and all manner of false worship , and in opposing whatsoever is against the power of godlinesse as a Toleration of all Religions is , which tends only to the bringing in of all prophanenesse and irreligion . Now the Il-independents deny , that they did ever fight for Religion : Yea , I my selfe have heard many of them say , That it is unlawful to fight for Religion , and they professed that when they went out with the sword in their hands , they fought onely for the liberty of their consciences , and for a Toleration of Religion which is a part and branch ( as they said ) of the Subjects birth-right : All this I can with many more depose , and therefore they falsly arrogate unto themselves that title of being the men of Gods right hand , which no more belongs unto them then the other ensignes and titles did : And as little right have they to the title of Saints and the generation of the Just ( which is so frequently in their mouthes ) if wee bring them to the true touchstone of that mettle ; therefore it may be to very good purpose to turne to the 15. Psalme and briefly to run over that where we shall finde a true description of Saints indeed . Who ( saith the Psalmist ) shall abide in thy Tabernacle , and who shall dwell in thy holy hill ? that is to say , who are Saints indeed and the generation of the Just ? For answer , the Holy Ghost , that best knew who were Saints indeed , sets down the characters of true Saints . The first of which is , his upright walking ; He that walketh uprightly ( saith the spirit of God ) This is a metaphoricall expression , signifying the trade of a mans life , his custome and carryage in it , as when a man is said to walk after the flesh , it is as much in the dialect of holy Scripture as to say , He goeth on in his naturall condition and in his irregenerate state , in his ignorance , blindenesse , wicked courses and practises , and hath no work of grace wrought in his heart , nor any chang in his will and affections , nor in his whole frame of life and carriage , but he is the old man still , Rom. 18. ver . 1. So to walk uprightly , in Scripture language , is , to walk after the spirit , to be regenerate , to be a holy and heavenly minded man , who doth all the actions of one borne again of the water and of the spirit , he makes the Law of God his delight , and squares his life and actions according to that rule and the direction of his blessed word , and he orders his life by that rule in all integrity , sincerity and without hypocrisie , or any base or by-ends or wordly respects . He makes it his employment with Enoch and Noah to walk with God secretly as well as openly , in all manner of conversation , in his thoughts words and deeds , as if he were ever in the sight and presence of God , walking uprightly also towards men , carrying himselfe justly towards all , but especially his main aime is to indeavour that the true worship and service of God may be set up in his family , and wheresoever he hath power ; hee declines not to the right hand nor to the left in matters of Religion , but keeps himselfe strictly to the rule and goes right on according to the direction of that : He halts not between two Religions or more , for he knowes how much that is disspleasing unto God , who said unto the people by his Prophet , Why halt ye between two Religions ? That God cannot indure in any people , no more then he can indure the lukewarme Laodiceans that are neither hot nor cold , but indifferent what Religion be set up , so they may injoy their case ; all such he knows God hath and will spew out of his mouth ; Such therefore as halt and limp in Religion and hop first on this side to this Religion , and then on the other side to that other Religion , and a little after limp into another opinion , and soon after hop into another Sect , all that walk thus , are no Saints in Gods dialect : For the true Saints indeed they walk up ●ghtly before God in that one Religion he hath appointed , they turne not to the right hand nor to the left , they take no by-way or crosse path in Religion , they halt not , nor limp not , nor doubt not of their way ; neither do they sit still or make a stand , nor set not a foot backward in Religion , all which were not to walk uprightly before God , but all the true Saints walk uprightly , they go on with constancy without interruption in their Religion that way Jerem. 6. They are not carryed sometimes this way with this wind of doctrine , and sometime that way with that blast of opinion , but they walk right on , they set not a step backward from their first love to Religion like the Church of Ephesus , Revel . 2. but passe forward toward the price and mark of their high calling with as great a zeal and fervency as at first , and hate all false wayes and erroneous religions , they persevere in all the wayes of God and in the footsteps of all the Saints of old , and imitate all those vertues and graces that are commendable in the Saints and all the Churches ; They cannot indure that any doctrine of Baalam , Jezabell , or of the Nicolaitans should be connived at amongst them , or tolerated , or any other Religion but that which the Lord our God hath appointed and established in his blessed word , and in that they walk and persevere , they decline not in their love to it , they go not backward with Demas to imbrace the present World , nor with Hymeneus and Philetus ; they will deny no truth of God , nor with any Hereticks innovate any thing in their Religion , but they walk uprightly to the marke of the high calling in Jesus Christ : They stand not still neither , nor make no pause in their way , but they are ever journying and in the action of well doing , going from strength to strength till they come to the heavenly Zion , they go on cheerfully in their Religion , yea they run the race set before them with patience , and that through thick and thin of all afflictions and persecutions , and abate not their pace , casting aside every thing that presseth down , as the love of the world , the love of honours and riches , the love of pleasures , the love of profits , the love of friends , and all earthly emoluments , yea and the sin that sticks so close unto them , all their hereditaty and inbred corruptions , yea they reject likewise all novelties in Religion , nothing can hinder them from walking uprightly in the old way God has appointed them to walk in , but in despite of all impediments they not onely walk , but run the race , and the whole race set before them , Looking upon the author and finisher of their faith Jesus Christ , who for the glory that was set before him indured the crosse , despised the shame , and is now set down at the right hand of God in heaven , Heb. 12. 2. He made that good confession to the death before Pontius Pilate and witnessed the truth ; All they therefore that are conformable to Jesus Christ and desire to walk in his steps and that are Saints indeed and the generation of the Just , can never indure a Toleration of all Religions ; for that is not to walk uprightly with their God , nor after Christ example ; for Christ whipt the Buyers and Sellers out of the Temple , and would not tolerate them but layd corporall punishment upon them for their evill doing , and preached against the Scribes , Pharisees and Saduces , and all erroneous Sects in his life time , and after he was ascended into heaven he wrote unto the Churches of Pergamos and Thyatyra , sharply reproving them for suffering and tolerating amongst them any other Religion then that he had appointed , and for but conniving at any novelties in Doctrine and Religion . They therefore that follow the ill example of those of the Church of Pergamos and Thyatyra , and not onely suffer all manner of Religions amongst them , but labour and indeavour to have an indulgence and a toleration for all under the pretence of liberty of conscience , they follow not the example of Christ the Prophet of his Church , nor the example of Abraham , Jacob , Ioshua and all the Patriarks and blessed Apostles who abhorred all novelties and tolerations , and therefore they walk not uprightly with their God and are not Saints indeed according to Gods own description of a true Saint . Now whether therefore the Il-dependents by their practises can challenge this Character to themselves , I leave it to the judgement of the learned , when they would have a Toleration of all Religions . But now to passe on to the second Character of a true Saint , He that worketh righteousnesse , saith the spirit , they that make it their imployment to render to every one their due obedience and subjection to the higher powers , Rom. 13. Tribute to whom Tribute , Custome to whom custome , fear to whom fear , honour to whom honour is due , and they that will owe no man nothing but love , and that love one another , knowing that he that loveth fulfilleth the Law , they are Saints properly so called v. the 7. In a word , all that are Saints indeed in Gods repute , worke righteousnesse ; they first give unto God his true worship and labour for the establishment of that Religion onely that he hath appointed , they cannot indure the Toleration of all Religions , neither will they connive at or indulge that any way of serving and worshipping of God should be permitted , where they have power and ability to hinder it , but that which God himselfe hath commanded ; for they know that that is not to work righteousnesse ; for that is not to give God his own , For he appointed but one Religion , and that he challengeth for his own ; so then , they that set up any other but that , or tolerate more , or allow of a Toleration of all Religions , they work not righteousnesse towards God ; for that is unjustice and a thing highly displeasing unto his divine Majesty , as taking his right and authority out of his hand who is King of his Church , and substituting themselves in his place , which is the greatest injustice and unrighteousnesse in the world ; and therefore all that are the true Saints indeed and the generation of the just , dare not attempt any such unjust thing ; for they work righteousnesse . Again , the true Saints in like manner work righteousnesse towards all men , they yeeld all subjection to those that are in authority over them , and they give the Magistrates their due honour and reverence , yeelding unto them all the duties of obedience and subjection and veneration , and they yeeld unto the Ministers and all their Brethren the duty of love and their true honour , and so are fulfillers of the law of God. They therefore that maligne their brethren and detract from their praises and hate them and speak evill of them and of those that are in dignity and authority , and raile of those in the Ministry , and as much as in them lies endeavour to make them odious to the world by their daily traducing of them , and assuming the honour due to them unto themselves , and all such as do assent unto them in this their unrighteous dealing , they do not worke righteousnesse , and therefore in Gods dialect they are not Saints indeed , nor the generation of the just : for it is great injustice to detract from any their due honour . Now I appeal unto the judgment of any intelligible man , whether or no those that write defamatory books and daily utter injurious and reproachfull words against the great councell of the Kingdome , traducing them before all the people , and accusing them of injustice , and of exercising a lawlesse and an arbitrary government over the people , proclaiming them tyrants and as bad as Strafford and the Bishop of Canterbury , and guilty of the same crimes , and that at pleasure can impeach any of the Parliament and accuse them to the people as traitors and such as keepe correspondency with the enimy , and are betrayers of their liberties , and those that do allow of such men , favouring them and incouraging them by their countenance or connivance , I say I appeal to the judgement of any whether they that do or assent to such doings do work righteousnesse , when they do apparently transgresse the law of God in speaking evill of their rulers . I am most assured that upon due deliberation they will acknowledge , that this is no righteous dealing : And therefore they must conclude , that they that work not righteousnesse are no true Saints , nor the generation of the just in Gods esteem . Again I demande of any man but of a moderate temper , Whether those that with most opprobrious termes doe calumniate our Brethren the Scots , and detract from their honour and due praises who came in for our assistance and helpe , and for our ayd and deliverance , and have beene under God one of the principall meanes of our preservation , whether in their so doing they worke righteousnesse . I demand further of any one but ordinarily principled either in Religion , or Morality , whether to speake evill of their Ministers , and of their Presbyterian brethren , and fellow souldiers , with all manner of calumnies and reproaches , and to defame them in word and writing through the world , and to doe them all the evill offices their most mortall enemies can doe against them , and who continually labour , to make them and the Presbyterian government hatefull to the world , and that will take great and chargeable journies , and write large Letters and scurrilous Pamphlets to doe any of their Presbyterian brethren an ill turne , and will also glory of it , and that in Print : I demand I say of any moderate minded Christian , whether the doing of ary of these things , or the hindring the worke of reformation , and the labouring for a toleration of all Religions , & the assenting unto such be to worke righteousnesse , and if he shall accord unto mee , that these actions are unrighteous , then hee must accord also that those that doe them are no Saints ; for the true Saints worke righteousnesse , it is their trade to be so imployed . Now whether the II-dependents bee not guilty of all these dealings , I referre the Reader to all their Pamphlets , especially to those of Iohn Lilburn lately set forth , and those of my brother Burton his Vindication , and his Vindicia veritatis , and their daily practises ; and I am most assured if hee will but spend a day or two in reading over the writings and the sermons of the Ill-dependents , they shall find little other then unrighteous dealing of all kinds against both Magistracy , Ministry , and all their Presbyterian Brethren and Fellow-souldiers ; For they slight them all , and make nothing of all that ever they have done ; for all the Glory of all the famous victories they assume unto themselves , and attribute the honour and glory of them to that Army they call the praying Army , as if none of the Presbiterian Souldiers either prayed or deservedany share in the honour of those victories , when it is most certainly knowne , that amongst the Presbyterian souldiers there are many thousands that live as holy and godly , and that pray as devoutly , and earnestly for all good successe upon their undertakings , and for a blessing upon their indeavours , as any Independents in England , and are as dearly beloved of God as any of them ; for with God there is no respect of persons , but every one that worketh Righteousnesse , Act. 10. of what nation soever hee be , God heareth him ; yea , and it is well knowne also , that in the Army there is ten , if not twenty Presbyterians to one Independent ; and all men know likewise , that many of them are experienced souldiers , whereas not twenty of them before these times ever saw the face of an enemy ; and it is likewise acknowledged by all impartiall men , that they have ever fought as valiantly as any Independents , and have stood to the Battell when many companies of them ran away , as can be proved ; notwithstanding all these things , the Independents ascribe the honour of all those victories to their owne party , and say the Independents got this and that victory , and onely because perhaps some of their Colonels , and a few other Independent Commanders had the leading up of the Presbyterian forces , and they that under God did the worke , loose their due prayses amongst the people , and the Independents arrogate the honour to themselves ( which is their daily practise ) and in its due place will appeare : And therefore when the Independents doe upon all occasions derogate thus from their brethren the glory that belongs unto them , and ascribe it to their owne Fraternity ; and when they are culpable and guilty of the foregoing charges , they worke not righteousnesse ; and therefore unles7s ; e they timely and cordially repent of all their unrighteous dealing towards God , and their brethren , this character of Saints and the generation of the just , will not belong to them ; for the Saints indeed , and the generation of the just , worke righteousnesse , whereas the Ill-dependents worke unrighteousnesse . But now to passe on to the other characters : the third character of the Saints , and Generation of the just , is this . Hee speaketh the truth in his heart , saith the Psalmist , and such an one is a Saint indeed ; all double dealing men therefore towards either God or men , and such as have a heart and a heart , and whose tongue and heart goe not together , they in Gods Dialect are no true Saints ; which doctrine is confirmed by Saint Iames , chap. 1. verse 8. who saith That a double minded man is unstable in all his wayes , and therefore in the 4. chapter hee exhorting those of his time to draw neere unto God , useth these words , draw nigh unto God ( saith hee ) and hee will draw nigh unto you , clense your hands yee sinners , and purifie your hearts , yee double-minded ; they therefore that are double-minded , & speak not the truth from their hearts , are unsanctified & impure , and are not Saints indeed , whatsoever they pretend . Now then all such as make the world beleeve that they will reveale the whole truth of God unto the people , and promise they will give in their modell of governement , and doe notwithstanding professe , and that in expresse words , that they will keepe a reserve donec ad triarios redierit res , and will not speake the truth in their hearts , nor communicate unto their brethren fully their wayes , though God hath commanded them , that whatsoever hee spake to them in secret they should preach upon the house top openly , they are double-minded men , and speake not the truth in their hearts ; and therefore in Gods esteeme they are not Saints indeed ; but such are all the Il-dependents . Again , they that in outward appearance & before men shew a great deale of love to their Neighbours , calling them brethren , and notwithstanding plot all the mischiefe they can against them , speake not the truth in their hearts , according to that of Saint Iohn , in his first Epistle , chap. 3. verse 18. My little children , ( sayes hee ) let us not love in word , neither in tongue , but in deed and in truth . There were it seemes such kind of creatures in his time , as made faire semblances of love to others in tongue and word , but did not really and in truth love their brethren , which he condemnes , for they spake not the truth in their hearts ; all such therfore as contrive all the mischief they can against those whom at every word they call brother and good brother , & yet write whole bookes to the defaming of them , and killing of their good name , which is worse then the murthering of their very bodies , they are so farre from being Saints , as they are like Cain that wicked one that slew his brother , ver . 12. all such therefore as say one thing and practise the contrary , are double-minded men , and a Generation not of the just but unjust ; for they speake not the truth in their hearts : when therefore all the Independents in words pretend love unto their Presbyterian brethren , and seeme to honour the Parliament , and the Scots , and their godly brethren the Ministers , and yet seeke by all meanes possible they can to render them all odious to the people , & to baptize them into the hatred of all men , and write scurrilous and defamatory books against them all to this very purpose , and rejoyce at any evill that happens to any of them , or to heare of any breach or division amongst them , and labour to make it greater , and will not so much as pray with them , or pray for them , but have beene heard , in their publick congregations say , and that in their prayers , Now Father we should come to pray for the Parliament and the Assembly , but they are not worthy the prayers of the Saints ; thus they speake unto God himselfe of the Parliament and Assembly in their owne congregations , and will not vouchsafe them so much as their prayers , as can sufficiently be proved ; and yet to the world they pretend they honour the Parliament and Assembly , and love all their Presbyterian brethren , and wish them all happinesse , when all their actions , words , and Pamphlets proclame the contrary ; for it is well knowne , that the whole scope of most of their imployments is to traduce the Parliament and their government , and to make the Scots and all the Presbyters their brethren the most hatefull people in the world , as if all their indeavours were to bring the people under an unsupportable slavery , and a greater yoake of tyrannie then that of the Prelates : this is their very language in all their discourse and writings ; yea , often in their meeting places , by which they have so inraged the people every where against all our godly and painefull Ministers , that they are looked upon with an evill eye through Citie and Countrey , and yet they pretend love unto them in words , and call them brethren at every turne , and their godly brethren , and yet would sterve them if they could , and both in their writings , and preaching , and disputes , labour to take away their good name , yea , their livelyhoods , their Tythes , the only maintenane by which they should support themselves and their families , all which their dealing is abominable dissimulation . So that when they most court them , and faune upon them with the title of brother , and good brother , and shew them some outward courtesies , they had most need to take heed of them ; for then they plot mischiefe , and speake not the truth in their hearts ; and therefore the Ill-dependents are no true Saints , for they speake not the truth in their hearts . But to goe on to the other characters of the true Saints , they saith the Holy Ghost , verse the 3. Back bite not with their tongue , nor doe evill to their neighbour , nor take up a reproach against their neighbour . In this verse there are three other characters together of true Saints , as in the former ver . The first , they backbite not with their tongue ; the second , they doe no evill to their neighbour ; the third , they receive not a reproach against their neighbour : they will not entertain , indure , or take up , or beleeve an evill report against their brethren : for they that are Saints indeed , know , that they that receive stoln goods into their houses , or doe assent unto a Thiefe , are as equally guilty as the thiefe that tooke them away ; now all such as make it their chiefe imployment , to traduce their neighbours and defame them , and speake evill of them , and fouly reproach them with all manner of contumelious , and disgracefull language , calling them the profest enemies of Jesus Christ and his Kingdome , the Antichristian brood , the lims of Antichrist , using a thousand such scurrilous and unchristian reproaches against the Presbyterian brethren in tongue and pen , and doe all manner of evill unto them in word and deed , and write libellous bookes against them , and receive and imbrace all manner of evill reports against them , yea , hunt after such , and seeke for them that they may have matter of slander against them , and give eare to Tale-bearers , and busie bodies against the word of God , and will imbrace the acquaintance of the most impious peoyle in the world , as can be proved , and give eare and credit to the calumnies and reproaches of profest Atheists in any thing they shall falsely report against any of their Presbyterian brethren , all such in Gods dialect are no true Saints ; for they that are Saints indeed , back-bite not with their tongue , they doe no evill to their neighbour , nor they will not receive a reproach against their neighbour , much lesse against those that are in authority and dignity . Now I say , if it can be proved that the Independents make it their ordinary and daily practise , not only to traduce , back-bite , and doe evill , and receive a reproach against their fellow brethren , but doe all these evils also against those that are in dignity and authority , and are made Rulers and Governours of the people , and over themselves , it follows that they that doe all these evils , and all those that assent unto them in their so doing , are not Saints indeed in Gods esteeme ; now that the Il-dependents are guilty of all these crimes , the many Pamphlets lately set forth by them , as those published by Iohn Lilburne , and my brother Burton , and all the other scurrilous and libellous Bookes set forth by those of that party , and countenanced by them doe sufficiently witnesse . And here I shall desire of any man , ingenuously to tell mee , what it is to back-bite their neighbour , and do evill to them , and to receive a reproach against them , if speaking defamatory words of them all , and writing and publishing of libellous Bookes against the great Councell of the Kingdome , and those in authority , be not to back-bite their neighbour . Certainly such words and books , as accuse the Parliament of Injustice , tyrannie , and of exercising an arbitrary power over the people against Magna Charta , and the Petition of Right , and the priviledges of the subject , and make them all as bad as Strafford and the Prelate ; and such words , Pamphlets , and writings against the House of Peeres and Commons , as tend to the defaming of them , and their just power and government , and to disaffect the people against them , and to stirre up a faction against their just authority , and to make them odious to all men ; and all those , that either speake such words , or write or print such Books and Pamphlets , and all such as allow of such words and Pamphlets , either by their silence or connivence , or approbation , or by buying and receiving of them into their houses , or venting , selling , and publishing of them , and either prayse or like of the authors and contrivers of them , and all such as shall scatter and spread such books abroad , and shall releeve and support such men in this their evill doing by supplying and furnishing them with moneys , or visiting of them and petitioning for their maintenance and allowance in these their wicked practises , or by their silence favour them ; all and every one of them may truly be said , and that by divine and humane authority and by the very testimony of my brother Burton , to be such as backbite their brethren , and they have all of them a great deal to answer for such their doings before the righteous judge of the whole world , and in Gods dialect all such as backbite their neighbour with their tongue and pen , are no Saints ; for the true Saints backbite not their neighbour with their tongue . Now that it is the generall practise of all the Il-dependents to do this , I refer my selfe to those Pamphlets above specified and to their dayly Proceedings , their combinings and confederatings of themselves together for this very purpose ; all which do sufficiently testifie and declare unto the world as well as their dayly publishing through City and Country such words and books as tend altogether for the defaming of the Parliament and the traducing of all their brethren ; that it is one of their master pieces boldly to calumniate all men that something may cleave and stick . Again , I demande of any man what it is to do evill to his neighbour , if plotting against the life and blood of their neighbours be not to do evil unto them , if making rents , schismes and factions in Church and State , and to vent and publish desperate and dangerous opinions and open heresies , all which are works of the flesh leading men to perdition Gal. 5. I ask I say , of any man , whether the acting of all these things be not to do evill to their neighbours ? And whether or no to violate all the laws of God and nature upon needlesse and unwarrantable pretences , as to divide the husband from the wife , the parents from the children , the servants from their masters , the subjects from their governours and them in authority over them , the people and sheep from their Ministers and faithfull Pastors , and to labour for a toleration of all Religions in a State and Kingdome , yea in many Kingdomes , and by this means to bring confusion upon them all : I demand I say , of any moderate man , whether the acting of all these things be not to do evill to their neighbours ? And whether to ride and run from one end of the Kindom to another to seduce the people , and to do their neighbours a mischiefe , and by tongue and pen and all manner of infamous language to wrong them to the taking away of their good name which is better then their life , be not to do evill to his neighbours ? Again I demand of any solid Christian whether the indeavouring the taking away all means of livelyhood from the Ministers , as their tythes the onely support of their families , and the making of them odious by their railing Pamphlets , and the hindring Reformation in the Church , and the breaking of all promises and covenants with their brethren to the prejudice of the whole Kingdom , be not to do evill to their neighbours ? And whether to raise up false and infamous reports against their brethren the Scots and them in authority , and to publish them in word and print be not to do evill to their neighbours ? And whether the denying of their brethren their very prayers , aide , help and assistance at any time , yea to pray against them and for their confusion , be not to do evill to their neighbours ? I shall here desire of any sober-minded Christian to tell me whether the acting or doing of all these things or any of them or the consenting unto them and allowing of them , be not to do evill to their neighbours ? And I am most assuredly confident , that he will candidly acknowledge that the acting of all this is to do evill to their neighbour . Now that the Il-dependents dayly practice all these things , can be proved by a cloud of witnesses , yea all their Actions and Pamphlets can testifie it , especially the late conspiracy of many of them against the life of that Honourable Gentleman Mr Speaker of the House of Commons and many more of the High Court of Parliament , and their running and riding about to preach up their new doctrines and hereticall opinions to the disturbing of all order in Church and State for the seducing of the people ; and their running riding and going from place to place to defame and traduce their neighbors , for the hindring of them from coming to any imployment by which they might have been useful in their generation to the land of their nativity ; all these passages I say can witnesse against them ; and innumerable presidents more of their unchristian proceedings against their breth●●n might be produced and may be proved by numberlesse witnesses , besides their owne writings , that all of them do evill to their neighbours , and that this is the generall practice of the Il-dependents . Yea it is notoriously known , that there is scarce a meeting of them , whether in their festivities or in any of their solemn assemblings of themselves together , gether , that they do any other great thing amongst themselves , but that that tends to the evill of their neighbours in word and deed , there scarce issuing any thing out of their mouths but injurious words against them : Yea they cannot contain themselves in the very open streets and in the Churches from railing against their Christian brethren , as can sufficiently be proved ; Yea let any Presbyterian accidentally but come into their houses , and they will reproach and raile at him . And if all this be not to do evill to their neighbours , I know not what is to do evill unto them . Now in Gods dialect all such as perpetrate any of these actions , are not Saints indeed : for the true Saints do no evill to their neighbours . The Il-dependents may not here pretend , that their Ministers can preach and pray well , and that those of their fraternity have many of them excellent gifts ; for gifts are not sufficient to make Saints , but grace is that that makes Saints ; For Saint James and Saint Paul have sufficiently proved That unto all the true Saints ; for so in the first of the Corinthians ch . 13. v. 1. 2. Though I speak ( saith Paul ) with the tongues of men and Angels , and have no charity , I am become as sounding brasse and a tinckling symball . And though I have the gift of prophecy , and understand all mysteries and all knowledge , and though I have all faith , so that I could remove mountaines , and have not charity , I am nothing . And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor , and though I give my body to be burnt , and have not charity , it profiteth nothing . So that by the doctrine of Saint Paul all gifts are nothing without that grace of love . And Saint James in the second chap. ver . 17. saith , That faith without works is dead , and that such as shall not relieve and helpe their Christian brethren in their necessities , their Religion is not so good as that of the devills , for they beleeve and tremble ; for pure Religion and undefiled is to visit the fatherlesse and the widdow , and to releeve them in their necessities , J am . 1. therefore they that are so far from relieving their brethren and doing good to them and loving of them , as they do them all the evill they can , pretend they what they will , they are no Saints . Yea , Saint John also in his first Epistle saith ver . 10. In this the children of God are manifes ; t and the children of the devill , whosoever doth not righteousnesse is not of God , neither he that loveth not his brother ; For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning , that we should love one another , not as Cain who was of that wicked one & slew his brother ; All they therefore that work not righteousnesse towards their neighbors , but do them evill and sl●y & murther them in their reputations and honour , they are no Saints ; but such are the Il-dependents notwithstanding all their gifts , as all their practises declare ; for they do all manner of evill in word and deed against their neighbours in persecuting them continually with their tongues and pens , and by all reproachful actions as dayly experience teacheth all men . And here I shall take an occasion to bring to the memory of the Il dependents some passages of their uncharitable dealing towards my selfe lately , that all men may see how unjust and partiall judges they are , and how they upon all opportunities will condemne any Presbyterian for that which they count a pleasantery and an elegancy or matter of mirth in their own mouthes . The story briefly is this . When the Earle of Strafford was in question before the great Councell of the Kingdome , the high Court of Parliament , as if that supream tribunall had wanted either judgement or prudence and sufficient understanding and knowledge for the tryall of a Delinquent , or had wanted courage or resolution or a minde to execute justice against so eminent an offender as he was , who notwithstanding carryed on the whole businesse with such wisdome and moderation and in so fair a way , as by which the Parliament hath gained an immortall fame to the worlds end ; yet at that time those of the Il-dependent party were the chiefe agents of all those tumults at Westminster , who made it their imployment dayly to run thither to cry for justice against the Earle , abusing him though then in the hands of authority , with all the reproachfull words that with the tongues of men could be uttered , as all the standers by can witnesse , describing him from all the parts of his body , and from every one of them gathering some presage of evill that should first be acted by him , & that should finally bring him to an evill and untimely end , and this for the most part was the theam of all their spitefull discourse concerning him as he was carryed both to and from the Parliament : Amongst other of their expressions , they said , he looked like the belly of a toad and that his teeth stood in his head like a pot-fish , and that he was so rotten with the poxe , that if they could not by their clamours procure justice against him , yet they comforted themselves in this , that he could not continue long ; for said they he will fall apeeces he is so rotten with that noysome disease . These and many other expressions they dayly and openly ▪ uttered against the Earle , ever affirming that he was the ugliest man that ever they beheld . This language I can depose I learned amongst them as never having heard it in all my life from any man before that time ; and they took no small pleasure in venting these words upon all occasions , and they used them as the flowers of their rhetorick , and it was thought neither blasphemy in them nor a lie nor any scurrility , neither were there any then of that fraternity so severe , as to think that any that used such words could not have the least dram of grace in them . But upon their clamours and through their exorbitant insolencies against him , I being one day at Westminster waited for his passing by that I might see what a hideous creature he was , that I might at another time say I had seen him , and in beholding of him I heard their uncivill and reviling speeches against him , but observed nothing in his looks and person , but had his actions been as serviceable to the Kingdome as they were destructive to all the Kings Dominions and to himselfe , there was nothing wanting in the man , either for person or courtship , or any other accoutrements that might not have made him lovely and venerable in any part of the world . And I may truly say this of him , that he had more generosity in his look then halfe the Il-dependents that ever I saw , were they put all together : but thus they did asperse him for his very looks and complexion . And in the same manner they spake of those Cavaliers that accompanyed the king when he came to the House of Commons to demand the five Members , of all the which they said they looked like so many devills , furies and feinds from Orco and Hell it sefe , and used all the odious expressions people could imagine to set them forth : And of all the ministers of the Church of England they say they are belly-gods and such as run from one end of the Kingdome to another to get preferment and to do mischiefe . Now upon an occasion not long since of a mutinous company of Il-dependents that sought the life and blood of many honourable Members in the House of Commons ; and had entred into a wicked conspiracy to that end , whose immaculate reputation notwithstanding they could not with all the breath of their calumnies in the least thing blast ; I say upon this occasion being cited and commanded to appear at the Committee of Examinations about that businesse , and coming thither I found such a rabble rout of odd fellows , that for the illnesse of their looks , and the badnesse of their complexions , and the manner of their behaviour , I never saw the like , or any man that was there that I talked with , as they are all ready to witnesse , they being so rude and uncivill towards all , especially towards my self , they being also such a company of squanderling fellowes , not one of six of them having a cloak to his back as if they had come only to make a tumult or an uprore , and therefore had laid aside all impediments that might have hindred their activity , as those that stoned Stephen , that they might be the more nimble , left their garments in other mens keeping . When I saw so ●ude a company , and hearing withall that they were of all Religions and that they had combined themselves together by swearing to take away the life of many in the House of Commons , and that their businesse might go on the better and with the greater success , that whiles some of them were there acting of their parts in a disorderly and tumultuous manner ; others of them were in the city at a private Humiliation , a speciall day being set a part to seek God , ( as they said ) that they might have justice done against some of the Members of Parliament that were not favourers of the Il-dependents , as Jezabell caused the Elders of Jezreell to call a Fast when shee took away the life of poor innocent Naboth . This that I now say , was related unto me by one of that company that not long after went out of the room , who was the onely person I knew amongst them all . But I not knowing the cause of such a concourse of uncivill people , demanded the reason of it , and it was replyed , that there was not a third part of those that were to come up ; for the whole city would appear there in that businesse the day following , to demand justice against such and such as guilty of High Treason , but that now they were seeking God and in private Fasts , and that some were assembled in such a mans house , naming the party . In this formall manner things were related unto me , as the righteous Judge of the whole world knoweth , all which proceedings I suppose was to do evill to their neighbours . Now when I had well viewed and considered all these men , and saw their complections ●arre worse then that of the Earle of Strafford , and beholding all their behaviour , and seeing their incivility towards all men , and especially towards my selfe , whom they causelesly reviled , saying , that they had kept mee from hanging not long since , and that I had lived on their almes , and that they had prayed for my deliverance out of my troubles , and that now I was come home with a vengeance unto them ; for I was turned an Apostate , and a Persecutor of the Saints , so that they could not in their hearts pray for mee , and many other reviling speeches they used in the presence of many honourable Gentlemen , as they can all witnesse , and that without giving them any occasion in word or deed , as the standers by are ready to depose ; I say , I seeing this their disorderly behaviour , and withall hearing them with open mouth traduce the great Councell of the Kingdome , and accusing them all of injustice , affirming , that their proceedings were as tyrannicall as those of Strafford , and the Prelates , and not onely saying it , but printing it in a Pamphlet , in the which they had most shamefully and falsely belyed mee , as the whole Parliament knew , in all which they did evill to their neighbours . I in replying to that Pamphlet , in my just defence , thought it an abuse of gravity to use it upon such whibling Fellowes , and chose rather by way of merriment to answer them , then seriously to spend time about them : and therefore calling to mind some of their owne expressions against the Earle of Strafford , as that hee had got a blow with a French Coulstaffe , and that hee looked like the belly of a Toad ; and remembring also , what they had spake of the Cavaliers that came with the King to the Parliament , that they looked like so many Furies and Fiends out of Hell , and recollecting withall what they had often spake of the Ministers of the Church of England , how that they ran from one part of the Kingdome to an other to get Church preferments , and regarded nothing but their bellies , and sought nothing but the inslaving of the King himselfe , and all the Gentry and Nobility of the Kingdome , that they might the more tyrannically domineer over all the people , and how they had polluted all the Church of God , with their idolatries and superstitions , and with all manner of heathenish and antichristian defilements and abominations , and remembring also many of Martins expressions against the Presbyters of the Church of England , in his blasphemous Pamphlets , as that of the Arraignment of Mr. Persecution , and his Eccho , and his Hue and Cry , the which Bookes were entertayned amongst all the Independents , and read with great delight , they making themselves upon all occasions merry with them , and especially with those expressions , wherein hee bringeth in all the Presbyters , and Master Simon Synod , with great ironteeth , and such luxuriant tushes , as one might picke them with a Rowling-pin ; and I say , I calling to my remembrance all these their expressions , ( in which they greatly delighted , and pleased themselves , when at any time they inveighed against the Presbytery , and studied to make them all odious to the people , as they have done ; in all which they have done evill to their neighbours ; ) thought it not amisse to make choyce of some of their owne Rhetorick , which I did purposely to find out the humour of the Cattle , and that all men might see the partiality of the Independents , and indeed the vanity of all unstable men in generall , who are won with an apple , and lost with a nut , and will prayse and disprayse they know not for what , and one day commend that in themselves which an other day they will condemne in any of a contrary mind , and at one time extoll a man for that which upon an other occasion they will censure him for , with all manner of aggravations . The consideration of these things , and with what disguised aspects , and hideous lookes , and odde complexions they appeared in all the roomes about the Committee , and how they grinned at mee with their teeth , made mee in the description of them use the same expressions that they had formerly done of Strafford , and the Cavaliers , and the Presbyters of the Church of England , when both in their countenance and actions they paralleld them , and say they looked like so many furies , and like the belly of a Toad , and as if they had got a blow with a French Coulstaffe , and that one might picke some of their teeth with a Bedstaffe , all which were their owne expressions ; and as they accused the Presbyters for belly gods , so they also were very sensible of good cheere , and that as the Presbyters had with their superstitions polluted the Church , so they did pollute them with their scummering and pissing in them ; and that as they sought to inslave the Gentry and Nobility , and the whole Kingdome ; so the Independets if they could but once attaine the mastery would doe no lesse ; and for this my so speaking I had very good reason , being well acquainted with their language and dialect , having often heard some of them say , that the Gentry and Nobility had beene the cause of all the miseries of the Kingdome , and that if they continued in their greatnesse , wee might never looke for happy dayes ; nay , it can be proved that some of the Independent Ministers have made it part of their imployment , to run from one place to an other to preach their errors , and in their Sermons to bring the Gentry and Nobility into the hatred of the people , accusing them as the cause of all our calamities , publickly declaming against them , as the basest Gentry and Nobility in the world , saying in expresse words , that howsoever Noble-mens Mothers were knowne , yet their Fathers were Grooms , or some base fellows , & that they were nothing but drosse , dresse , drosse ; and this they have spake in great and crowded Assemblies ; all the which speeches , if they tend not to make the Nobility hatefull to the people , and so by consequence to the ruine and overthrow of them in time , I know not what can ; and whether all this bee not to doe evill to their neighbours , I leave it to the judgement of others ; and how many of the Independents have vilified the great Councell , let their bookes be examined and they will say I wrong them not in any thing , when I affirm they labour to bring in a confusion of all things ; yea , their words daily at the very Parliament dore can witnesse that howsoever they pretend to honour the Parliament , yet they do accuse them of arbitrary and tyrannicall Government , and assert that the Lawyers in the Parliament have betrayed the Liberties of the subject , and this is their daily language , and that it may bee the better knowne , it is all extant in their printed Books , by all which they do evill to their neighbours . Now then if I , in my just defence made use of their owne expressions to set downe the wickednesse of their wayes , and to discover their bad intentions , there was no just cause why any rationall man should condemne mee for it , for ridentem dicere verum quid vetat ? Now that the Independents have so severely censured mee causelessely for this , they shew they are altogether partiall and very unjust Judges ; and whiles they doe the greatest evill unto men , that can possibly by the malice of men be done unto them which no true Saints doe , for they doe no evill to their neighbours , as the Spirit of God saith ; yet they will condemne others , for but making use truly of such expressions ( as they themselves have falsely and causelessely used against others ) ; for I in discribing of them and their proceedings exprest my selfe but in their owne dialect , and yet they fill the whole Kingdom with clamours against mee , for being but their scholler . The time was , when I writ my Letany for to make my self and my fellow Prisoners merry in our bands , that when many grave men liked it in private , yet disswaded mee from making of it publick , that those that are now the great Sticklers of the Independent party , against all the counsell of my grave friends , perswaded me to print it , protesting , that they thought it would doe the Prelates more mischiefe then any booke that was seriously penned against them , and therefore intreated mee by all meanes , that I would publish it ; yea , they offered mee to set it forth upon their owne charges and costs ; and through their importunity they prevayled with mee to give them the copie , and it was printed , and liked so wel of by that party , as they commended mee with all the prayses men could extoll and magnifie a man with , as can be proved , and they have often profest unto mee , that they thought it was the best way of dealing with any enemies of the Church , and therefore I conceive that Martin useth so much of this method in his books . But indeed there have bin many , and grave Divines that have writ many merry and pleasant books against the Prelates in all ages & nations , which have discovered their vanities more then any thing that was seriously writ , by which meanes many personages of eminent quality , as well as those of low degree , have come to the knowledge of the wickednesse of the Papall Hierarchy , which had they beene seriously penned no man would have regarded ; yea , the holy Prophets and divine Pen-men have made themselves merry with the vanity of the false Prophets , and great men of their time , many presidents of the which might be produced out of sacred writ , so that there is no sinne in writing pleasantly against any such as goe about to seduce and mislead the people , and alienate them from their duty towards God , and their obedience to those that are in authority , and from their duty and love to their brethren , all which are capitall evils , and which no true Saints will perpetrate . Now I say , in this that the Independents did so well like of my Letany , and the merry passages in that booke , and are so highly offended at my mirth in my just defence against them , that are equally guilty with those they most mortally hate , and in that they so harshly accuse those expressions in my booke , which I have but borrowed from them , saying , that none that useth such , can have a dramme of grace in them , in all this they are very partiall , and unjust Judges , and give unrighteous judgement against their neighbour , which is to doe evill to their neighbour , which all true Saints will not doe ; and they may remember that the Lord in the 29. of of Isaiah , condemned such as made a man an offender for a word : But of all these things in their due place , When I upon an other occasion shall answer to the moderate checks , wherin I shall make it appeare , had those expressions beene mine owne , there had beene no blasphemy in them , without it be esteemed blasphemy with them , to compare a company of rude and rebellious wicked people to a good creature of God , when as the Holy Ghost compareth such to a Dog returning to his vomit , and to a Sow wallowing in the mire ; withall I shall then make it evident , that the conspiracy of Corah , Dathan and Abiram was not greater against Moses and Aaron , then this confederacy of the Ill-dependents at that time against some of the honourable Members of the Parliament . But letting passe their partiality in many other things towards their owne party , in whom they can see no sinne , I will goe on to the other characters of true Saints indeed , as they are set downe by the Spirit of God : the third of which , in this verse , is that they receive not a reproach against their neighbors . The true Saints , saith the Holy Ghost , take not up a reproach against their neighbours , they will neither heare much lesse entertain or receive an evill reproach or calumny against their neighbours , for they have learned better things out of Gods holy word , as in Exodus 23. verse 1. where the Lord speaking to his owne people , and all true Saints , saith , Thou shalt not receive or rayse a false report ; put not thou thy hand with the wicked , to be an unrighteous witnesse . Neither is there any thing more forbidden through the whole Scripture , then whispering , and tale-bearing , as all the Proverbes , & indeed all the Propheticall & apostolicall writings can witnesse , so that all such as either raise , or receive false reports , or reproaches against their neighbours , in Gods esteeme , are no true Saints , but wicked men and unrighteous wretches ; for so the Lord proclameth all such ; and a greater unrighteousnesse and sinne towards men , there cannot be then to rob them of their good name , which is to them as a pretious oyntment , and better then gold or silver , or great riches , Proverbs 22. verse 1. Ecclesiast . the 7. verse 1. and hence it was that David compares the tongues of reproachfull men to Speares , Arrows , and Swords , and all instruments of death ; for by their calumnies they wounded and murthered the reputation of their innocent neighbours , and killed them whiles they were alive ▪ which is the worst of all mortall deaths : and therefore the holy Prophet though otherwise a valiant man , and undaunted , yet often professeth , that they had brake his heart with their reproaches ; and truly a sorer affliction in this life cannot lite upon any men , then to bee wounded in their good name , and to have their due honours and prayses taken from them , & to be made vile amongst the people , which is the greatest of worldly evils , as all judicious and impartiall men will easily judge ; for there is no fence or ward against calumnies in the schooles either of wit or art ; and all such as either rayse such reports against their neighbours , or receive a reproach , and harbour any evill thoughts against them , and such as tend to the wounding of their good names and fames , are all in Gods Dialect reputed no Saints ; for the true Saints saith the Holy Ghost , take not up a reproach against their neighbours ; for thus the Lord hath declared himselfe in his holy word concerning all such men as either raise or receive a reproach against their brethren , asserting that they are no Saints . Now when the Il-dependents make it their dayly practice , not onely to receive reproaches against their ordinary neighbours and brethren , but against both the Magistrates , Ministers and all their Presbyterian brethren both Scottish and English , as all the Pamphlets of John Lilburne and my brother Burton and all the other writings and words and the very Sermons of those of the Il-dependent party and all their proceedings do daily witnesse , it is sufficiently evident that they are no Saints : For the true Saints and all such as are Saints indeed , receive not a reproach against their neighbours . Yea it is well known and can be proved that they hunt after reproaches against their innocent neighbours , and will not only entertain into their companies , but even into their new gathered Churches such infamous persons as have been a shame and dishonour to all their kindred , and such as continue still in their wicked and ungodly practices ; and onely for this , that they can impudently and wickedly reproach their neighbours and raise an evill report against them ; all this I say can sufficiently be proved . Nay some of them have been heard say , when they have railed at and reviled some godly Presbyterian Ministers that opposed the errors and novelties of the times , whē they were demanded what evil they knew by them , and what they could blame in their lives and conversations ; I say when this question has been propounded unto them , they have replyed , this is the mischief and spite of it that they are unblameable in their lives : then the which there could not be a more wicked , malitious and unchristian expression , by which they declare unto all men that it troubled and perplexed them that there was no evill in their lives by which they might justly defame them ; so that it is evident to all men that it is matter of rejoycing amongst the Il-dependents when they hear of any failings in their Presbyterian brethren contrary unto the custome and practice of the people of God and the true Saints in all ages ; for they receive not a reproach against their neighbour ; innumerable instances of this nature might be produced against the Il-dependents , but that their practices are so obvious to all those that are acquainted with them , or but come in their companies ; for a man shall not be half an hour in any of their societies but he shall hear them either reproach the Parliament or their Proceedings , or inveigh against some of the Generalls of our Armyes , or speak against the reverend Assembly of Divines and against all the Presbyterians their brethren , or against the Scots ; and all that they speak of them or any of them , tendeth to their reproach or infamy , so that they do not onely receive reproaches against their innocent neighbours that live harmlesly by them , but they raise up reproaches against them and print them , yea against the whole city that has deserved so well from Church and State , and only for that they desire to keep their Covenant with their God , and which they have solemnly taken , lifting up their hands and hearts to the most high , and vowed to perform , which will be for their immortall praise ; and yet for this cause onely and no wrong done or attempted against them , they can in the Great Court of the Kingdom & in print also reproach them all and accuse them of black choler , yea blackcoat choler , as if they were the most malitious , rancorous and envyous wicked men in the world , which is so unsufferable a reproach against the great city of the Kingdome as yet before these our times never saw the light . Now if these men at their pleasure will causlessely traduce and that publickly and in print , men in authority and men that have deserved so well from the Church of God and the whole Kindome , What may any man imagine will not these men do and plot in private to reproach their harmlesse neighbours when they thus daringly and prodigiously reproach them in publick and that in print ? So that I may conclude and that truly of them , Except they seriously and cordailly repent of this their wicked dealing towards their brethren , this character of the Saints also will not belong unto the Independents ; for the true Saints , neither raise nor receive a false report or reproach against their neighbours , nor assent to any that do either . And this shall suffice to have spoke of the three Characters of all true Saints indeed contained in the third verse of this 15. Psalme . There are yet other four in the insuing verses , three of which I will run over briefly , they being all things of practice and well known to all men : And they are these ; In whose eyes a vile person is contemned : and he honoureth them that fear the Lord : and he that sweareth to his own hurt and changeth not . The first of these Characters , is , to contemn a vile person . The second is , to honour such as fear the Lord. The third is , to swear to his own hurt and change not . Those therefore that are Saints indeed , in whose lives and conversation these three Characters are evidently visible and apparent ; and those that either countenance vile persons , and honour not such as fear the Lord , or break their vows , promises and covenants with either God or men , they in Gods repute are not Saints indeed , pretend they what they will , but are wicked and ungodly men and such as bring down the wrath of God upon the place where they live : For as Solomon saith , By the blessing of the righteous the city is saved , so by the mouth of the wicked it is overthrown . Prov. 11. ver . 11. Wicked and ungodly men are the cause of the ruine of Cities and Countryes ; according to that of Saint Paul the second of Timothy chap. 3. ver . 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5. This know also ( saith he ) that in the last dayes perilous times shall come ; for men shall be lovers of their own selves , covetous , boasters , proud , blasphemers , disobedient to Parents , unthankfull , unholy , without naturall affection , covenant-breakers , false accusers , incontinent , fierce , despisers of those that are good , traiterous , heady , high-minded , lovers of pleasures more then lovers of God , having a forme of godlinesse , but denying the power thereof , from such turne away : For of this sort are they which creep into widdows houses , and lead captive silly women laden with sins , led away with divers lusts , &c. In the which words , briefly we may take notice that the Apostle setting down the reason of the perilousnesse and danger of the latter times , saith not that either in respect of wars , or pestilences , or famines , or earth-quakes , or inundations , or murthers , slaughters , and robberies , or for any such calamities , the lastdayes and times shall be perillous ; but they shall be perillous times , saith he , for that men shall be lovers of themselves , covenant-breakers , false accusers , covetous &c. So that selfe-love , covetousness , false accusations of their brethren and covenant-breaking &c. are the cause that makes times perillous and brings down the judgements of God upon any city and places where the Inhabitants are practicers of these sinnes : And therefore the Apostle after he had forewarned all such as fear God of the cause of all the evills that are comming upon the world , commands all the true Saints indeed to take heed of such men , and in expresse words sayes , from such turne away ; have nothing to do with such , for all covenant-breakers and false accusers , and such as countenance vile persons and honour not them that fear the Lord , and such as keep not their word and promise with neither God nor men , are the cause of the perils and miseryes that shall come upon the world , and therefore all such are not Saints indeed , but ought to be abhorred and avoyded according to that of Solomon Prov. 4. ver . 14 , 15. Enter not ( saith he ) into the path of the wicked , and go not into the way of evill men . Avoyd it , passe not by it , turne from it , and passe away . Here we see the wise man , as if he could never have given caution enough to all his schollers , by many reduplications of his words gives all the people of God a strict charge not so much as to company with such men : and that for the many reasons set down in the following verses ; but this reason specified by Saint Paul may suffice , who saith , That all covenant-breakers , and false accusers and self-seekers are the causes of perillous times : and so are all such , in whose eyes a vile person is not contemned , and who honour not such as fear the Lord , and who keep not their covenant and promise : For all such are no Saints in Gods esteem , and therefore a wicked generation of men and such as make the times wherein they live perillous and dangerous , and therefore ought by all the true Saints and godly to be shunned and avoyded . Now if it can be proved that the Independents be such , as in whose eyes a vile person is not contemned , and such as honour not those that fear the Lord , and such as keep not their word and promise neither with God nor man , but are notorious covenant-breakers , or assenters to all such persons , then it will follow that they are not Saints indeed : For the Characters of the true Saints are to contemn a vile person , & to honour those that fear the Lord , and to keep their vowes and promises both with God and men ; for not onely the Psalmist thus describeth the true Saints , but Saint John also saith , By this men are known to be Saints if they love the brethren , by this saith Christ , ye shall be known to be my Disciples , that is Saints indeed , if ye love one another : I shall therefore demand of any well grounded Christian , Whether they beleeve that those that run from place to place , and joyn with any wicked and ungodly men and seeke their advancement , & that to places of the greatest trust in the Kingdome , and prefer them before such as they dayly acknowledg to be godly and truly religious , and will run from Committee to Committee , to do the most wicked and vile men and known Malignants any courtesie , and will both in word , countenance and deeds favour and honour them ; I demand I say , whether they think that in such mens eyes as will do all these offices to wicked persons and that in opposition to any of their godly brethren , and that will at any time joyn with any such against either the godly and painfull Ministers or their Presbyterian brethren to defame them or do them any mischiefe or to remove them from their places and livelyhoods , or for the hindring of their preferments , yea and which is more for the hindring of the work of Reformation in the Church : I demand I say of any truly godly Christian , whether they think that in any such mens eyes as do all these offices and courtesies to wicked and ungodly men , a vile person is contemned ? when he dayly seeth the contrary that they honour them and prefer them before such as fear the Lord ; I am most assured he will conclude and affirme , That in their eyes a vile person is not contemned . Now that this is the dayly practice of the Independents , I undertake upon my life to prove it by a cloud of witnesses , and that there is not the vilest person nor the wickedest wretch that they will not joyn with to do any of their Presbyterian brethren a mischief , & that they will not give credit to in falsly belying their brethren ; yea it can be proved , that when the Independents have been demanded by some godly and orthodox Ministers why they have left the publick Assemblies seeing there was now no ceremonies nor any thing in their doctrine that they could finde fault with , and they have replyed , That it was in regard that their Congregations were mixt , that tagg ragg and all sorts of men were admitted to the Sacrament , with whom they could not joyne . Whereupon the Ministers , that they might remove this scandall and offence , laboured by all means to perswade the people so to behave themselves as they might manifest unto all men they were worthy communicants , otherwise professing unto them that they durst not administer the communion unto them ; and therefore for some moneths abstained from the publick administration of the Sacrament and used all their best endeavour in that interim by their faithfull and painfull preaching and exhortations , to fit all men for the better receiving of the Sacrament , and that by this means they might gratifie their tender consciences ; I say in this interim of time it shall be proved , that these Independents , who those godly Ministers had such a desire to please , went unto these wicked and ungodly men that the Ministers excepted against for their conversation as ungodly and prophane , and joyned with them against their Ministers , saying unto them , What will you give tythes and maintenance to such Ministers as shall thus deal with you as to deny you the Sacrament of the Lords supper ? surely were I in your condition , & were I a Member of your Congregations , I would never own such a man for my Minister , nor never give any allowance to any such as would not administer the Sacrament unto me : By which practices of theirs they have made those painful Ministers so odious to the people by joyning with those wicked varlots as they have not only deprived them of their livelyhoods and maintenance , but so persecuted them with all manner of reproaches and evill language , as they have forced them to leave their places and to wander about the world to get themselves a poor living for the supportation of themselves and their distressed families ; by all which proceedings if the Independents do not declare themselves to be such as countenance a vile person , and to be enemies of those that fear the Lord , I know not what ever any men did to deserve those Characters , by all which they proclaim themselves to be no true Saints , if the Lord himself knoweth how to describe Saints indeed : This that I have here related I shall by Gods assistance be able to prove by such witnesses as against whom there can be brought no just exception . And that all the Independents are notorious covenant-breakers , or assenters unto such as violate their oathes and promises both to God and men , all the Kingdome can witnesse for me , especially those Ministers of the Reverend Assembly , with whom the dissenting brethren have brake all promises and solemne agreements not once but many times ; so that it would be a needlesse work to expatiate any further , in proving them to be no Saints indeed , when they manifest by all their practices that they neither walk uprightly nor work righteousnesse , nor speak the truth in their heart , and when they backbite their neighbours with their tongue and do evill unto them and receive a reproach against their neighbours and countenance vile persons , and honour not such as fear the Lord , and keep not their promises either with God or men ; by all which they declare unto the world that they are not Saints indeed , when all these Characters are the badges onely of wicked men , to do contrary to that description of true Saints . Now when all the Churches of the Congregationall way consist of such Members as these are , it followes that they are mixt Assemblies as not consisting of visible Saints , & therefore ought justly to be separated from and not to be communicated with in holy things ; and that from their own principles : For they pretend they separate from our assemblies onely because they are mixt of tagg ragg and such Saints as Job would not set with the dogs of his flock . Many other Arguments also might I here bring against both the Ministers and people of the congregational way to prove them no visible Saints , and that not from any private information or clandestine practices , but for open delinquency and scandalous walking and that in the veiw of all men , and such as can be proved by such personages , as against whom there can be no just exceptions . But before I conclude this businesse let me say that which a learned man once uttered reading Christs Sermon upon the mount and the holy Evangelists , either this is not the Gospel ( saith he ) of Jesus Christ , or if it be the men now living are no Christians : After the same manner I may truly say of those of the Congregational way , that either this discription of the true Saints is not the word of God , or if it be , those of the Independent Assemblies are no Saints : for there is no agreement between them and the description of those Saints there specified , as all their practices sufficiently and apparently declare . And now the fourth and last part of my Minor Proposition remaineth only to be proved : viz. That the Independents and all those of the Congregationall way despise their Christian Brethren and separate from them as being more holy then they ; which is so apparently true , as besides their words and Pamphlets in all which they protest against us , as enemies of the Lord Jesus Christ & his Kingdome and as an Antichristian brood , their dayly practice declareth it , who have moulded themselves into innumerable sucking Congregations which they terme the onely true Churches , and have separated from our Aslemblies as from so many Synagogues of Sathan , for this is their language . So that it may be thought a needlesse spending of time , to use any Arguments to evince that which is in the view of all men , & which the Independents themselvs avouch . Having therefore thus proved all the parts and branches of my minor proposition , the major being undeniable , the conclusion will necessarily follow , That the Churches of the Congregationall way , are not true Churches after the New Testament forme , as not consisting of all visible Saints , but are mixt Congregations , and therefore by truly godly people ought not to be communicated with in holy things , and that from their own principles . So that now , it is apparently evident to the judicious Reader from that I have formerly spake & from my brother Burtons words and from their own definition of a Church , That neither the Church of Ierusalem , nor any of the Primitive and Apostolical Churches , were true formed Churches after the New Testament form , if my brother Burtons and I. S. his words and their definition of a Church ▪ be true , and that the very Churches of the Congregationall way , as not coming within the bounds of that definition , are no right constituted Churches , as not consisting of all visible Saints & cōmunicating in all Ordinances , and which is more , That if they will be right formed churches they must al be dependent . All this I say is sufficiently proved f●ō all the foregoing discourse to any intelligible & impartiall Reader in the which I have been the more large , that if it be possible , I might undeceive the poor deluded people , and perswade them to take no notice of them ( as the Independents do not of those multitudes baptized by Iohn & Christs disciples ) as formed into a church or Churches after the New Testament form : for the first formed Church we read of is Acts the second , that consisted onely of visible Saints , and yet had neither Deacons nor Presbyters at that time , nor distinct Officers and Members united into one Church body respectively , and wanted that part of Discipline also of casting out corrupt Members ( as my brother Burton asserteth pag. 10. ) So that by this it evidently followeth , That those Congregations that consist of visible Saints , though they have not distinct Officers within themselves and want Discipline , may be true formed Churches after the New Testament form , as the Church here of Jorusalem was , which at that time it was a true formed Church ( by my brother Burtons confession ) had no Deacons , nor Elders nor dictinstion of officers & members , nor that part of Discipline for casting out corrupt Members , and yet I say notwithstanding it wanted all these things ( by their own concession ) it was at that time a true formed church , & that because the Members of that Church consisted of visible Saints : from all which I may draw these two infallibleconclusions . The First , that all such congregations as consist of visible Saints , such as beleeve the Gospel , and make profession of the Christian Faith , and are baptized , and continue stedfastly in the doctrine of the Apostles , in breaking of bread , and in prayer , are true formed Churches after the New Testament forme ; although they want both distinct Officers , and Members united into one Church body respectively , and although they want that part of discipline for casting out of corrupt Members . This first conclusion , I say , I infallibly gather from the Independents doctrine . The second is this , That whatsoever Congregations and Assemblies they be , that have both distinction of Officers and Members , and Church discipline , and all other outward performances , if the Members of them bee not visible Saints , they are not true formed Churches after the New Testament forme ; for all true formed Churches after the New Testament form , are such as consist of visible Saints , without which they are but shadows of Churches , and no true churches for substance ; but all the Independent congregations are such as only glory in outward performances & consist not of visible Saints . Ergo. And this shall suffice to have spake to all that Mr Knollys I. S. & my Brother had to reply against all my Arguments , for the proof of my first Proposition , viz. that there were many Congregations and severall Assemblies of beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem , in the which they injoyed all acts of worship , and all the saving and sealing Ordinances amongst themselves , and that before the persecution , and under the persecution , and after the persecution . And now I come to what Master Hanserdo , I. S. and my Brother Burton have to answer to my second , third and fourth Propositions insuing ; and after I have dispatched that worke , I will then in like manner reply to whatsoever either Master Knollys , I. S. or my brother Burton have to say to all my Arguments concerning the gathering of Churches , and touching the liberty of conscience , or the toleration of all Religions ; and because they are not so large in their answers to them , as they were to my fore-going reasons ; and to speake the truth , speake little to the purpose , but for the overthrowing of their owne opinion , and for the corroborating of mine , I shall be the briefer in them . But first , I will set downe my Propositions , and shew how farre the Jndependents assent unto them ; and I will then also faithfully relate their owne words , so far as they are for their purpose , or any way make against my Arguments , or are in any respect advantagious to their cause . My second Proposition now followeth , viz. That all these congregations and severall Assemblies made but one Church . And for proofe of this I shall not need to use many words , or any great dispute ; for the brethren themselves acknowledge , that all the beleevers in Jerusalem were all Members of that Church , and they accord farther , that it was but one Church . And it is manifest out of the holy Scripture ; for it is said , they that were converted , were added to the Church ; and therefore Members of it , and that they continued in the Churches communion , and in the Apostles doctrine , and put their estates in the Churches common treasury , and ●hose Officers for the Church ; and all this ( I say ) our brethren doe acknowledge , and take this fellowship of these Members for a paterne of ordinary Church-communion ; and therefore this my second assertion is without controversie , it being in expresse words set downe in the 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6. chapters of the Acts , and many places in the same Storie , and assented to by the brethren . To this Proposition , and the Reasons of the same , Master Knollys in the eleventh page of his Pamphlet thus replyes . To which J also ( saith hee ) consent ; but the brethren have not acknowledged , neither bath the Doctor by Scripture proved , that in this one Church of Jerusalem there were divers Congregations and severall Assemblies of Beleevers ; and therein I must manifest my dissent from the Doctors opinion , promising him , if he shall soundly prove it in expresse words of Scripture ( which he hath undertaken ) I will acknowledge it . This is all Master Knollys hath to say to this Proposition . I will first therefore reply to him , and in doing that , insert my brother Burtons answer to it , with what I. S. hath to say , and answer to them all in order . Now whereas Master Knollys affirmes , that the brethren have not acknowledged , nor the Doctor by Scripture proved that in this one Church of Jerusalem there were divers Congregations and severall Assemblies of Beleevers ; in all hee saith , I am most assured all that shall without prejudice reade my fore-going Arguments , and seriously weigh and consider what my Brother Burton , Master Knollys , and I. S. have written , will conclude , That Master Hanserdo is a man of very shallow capacity , and of as little honesty , and no way to be credited in what either hee saith or writeth . Neither ought Master Knollys in this controversie ( especially when the debate is yet sub Iudice ) to bee both party , witnesse , Iury and Iudge , in his owne cause , as all wise men will gather : and therefore I leave it to the judgement of the learned , whether or no I have not by Scripture sufficiently proved , there were many congregations , and severall Assemblies of Beleevers in that one Church ; and whether I have not by expresse words of Scripture , and from my brother Burtons and Master Knollys his owne words abundantly evinced it ; all this , I say , I leave to the judgement of all impartiall and understanding Christians , who I am confident will grant that I have sufficiently proved there were many congregations of beleevers in the Church of Jerusalem ; and therefore I challenge Master Knollys his promise , and expect that hee should acknowledge his error ; and so relinquish his fond opinion of Independency , which if he doe not , hee cannot be an honest man , and a true Saint , as not keeping his word ; for David describing a true Saint , Psal . 15. verse 4. saith of such an one , that hee sweareth to his owne hurt , and changeth not . Now if hee bee in the number of those Saints , and will keepe his promise , hee will abandon his tenent of the congregationall way . But because Master Knollys so peremptorily asserts , that the brethren have not acknowledged that there were many congregations and severall Assemblies of Beleevers in the Church at Ierusalem ; I shall desirehim and all those of his fellowship to hear my brother Burton who esteems of himselfe as none of the weakest brethren , but accounteth himselfe a Champion , and therefore cometh out to dare all the world of Presbyterians ; and yet hee in the name of all that Fraternity acknowledgeth , that there were many assemblies of Beleevers and Saints in the Church of Jerusalem , and this his book is allowed of and highly approved of by many of them : And if I have not been mis-informed , it was licensed by their Batcheler of the black-art of Il-dependency that shotten hering in divinity , who alloweth of all their other Pamphlets and sets his Imprimatur to them ; So that what he licenseth is approved of by them all . Now I desire Mr Knollys and I. S. and all those of his society to listen unto their great Rabbi , old Harry , my courteous and learned brother , whose words are these in the ninth Page of his Answer . The first formed Church ( saith he ) we finde is in the second of the Acts , which though consisting of five thousand , yet it was one entire particular Church and not Churches ; and they continued dayly 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with one accord in one place together ( v ▪ 1. ) and in the Temple ( ver . 44. 46. ) growing from an hundred and twenty ( Acts 1. 15. ) to three thousand more ( chap. 2. 41. ) and then in all five thousand ( ch . 4. 4. ) and all these but one Church which assembled together to hear the word in the Temple , and though they wanted a convenient place so spacious as wherein to break bread or to receive the Lords Supper all together , so as they were constrained to sever themselves into diverse companies in severall private houses to communicate , yet this severing was not a dividing of this Church into so many distinct formall Churches or Church bodies , being but so many branches of one and the same particular Church , &c. These are my brother Burtons words in the name of all his brethren , and therefore they may abundantly satisfie Mr Knollys and all men that the brethren have acknowledged there were many Congregations of beleevers in the Church of Jerusalem . But for the farther confirmation of this truth , that the brethren have acknowledged there were severall assemblies of beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem , I will unto the testimony of my brother Burton add the testimony likewise of another faithfull brother against whom I presume Mr Knollys can have no just exception ; so that this truth being confirmed by the mouth of two approved and seraphicall witnesses , the brethren can never doubt of it any more : and this witnesse is one Saint Hanserdo one of Saint Georges for England his Chaplaines , a man worthy of esteeme who usually preacheth on horseback to the Country Courtiers all the the truth ( as he said ) of the Gospel ; And therefore I know Mr Knollys will give great heed to Saint Hanserdo's testimony concerning this matter , and he touching this point in the tenth page of his learned book saith that the Apostles and all the Beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem met together with one accord in one place , to wit , the Temple , and in Solomons Porch , and brake bread from house to house domatim , and thus they did quotidie day by day &c. From the which two testimonies the one of my brother Burton the other of Saint Hanserdo , all intelligible men may easily gather , that there is very little credit at any time to be given to what Mr Knollys or those of his party shall affirme either concerning the judgment of their brethren or what they shall relate concerning other men : For he in the name of them all asserteth these two things . The first touching themselves : viz. that the brethren ( meaning all the Illdependents ) have not acknowledged that there were many congregations in that one Church at Ierusalem . The second concerning my selfe , of whom he saith , that the Doctor hath not by Scripture proved that there were severall assemblies of Beleevers in that one Church . Now for the latter of his assertions , I have not only from Scripture proved it , but from my brother Burton and Master Hanserdos their owne concessions made it good : viz. that there were many Congregations of Beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem : And therefore I do to all the world accuse Master Knollys of calumny and dishonesty . And for the first of his assertions : viz. That the brethren have not acknowledged it , for the conviction of him of an apparent untruth in this , my brother Burton and Saint Hanserdoes testimonies do it for me ; for in their above mentioned words , and that in the name of all the Independents , and that in books approved of by many of that way , in those I say my brother Burton conceptis verbis saith , that though it was but one entire Church , yet for want of a convenient place so spacious as where to break bread , they were constrained to sever themselves into divers companies in several private houses to communicate . And Saint Hanserdos his testimony is as full as my brother Burtons , for he saith the Apostles and beleevers met day by day in the Temple and in Solomons Porch and brake bread from house to house , that is they did communicate from house to house or in every house ; So that Saint Hanserdos witnesse to prove many assemblies is most evident . So that both these brethren in the name of all their fraternity acknowledge , there were may Congregations of Beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem , and that in severall private houses , and my brother Burton saith moreover , that they were so many branches of one and the same particular Church . Now I refer my selfe to all the world , whether there be any regard at any time to be given either to Master Knollys or any of his faction , when he and they at pleasure dare publish such notorious untruths as these , for he in the name of all the Independents affirmeth , that the brethren have not acknowledged that there were many congregations of Beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem , when my brother Burton notwithstanding and Saint Hanserdo have in expresse words , and that in the name of all their fraternity asserted , That when there were but five thousand yea but three thousand beleevers , for the largnesse of the Church at that time and for want of so spacious a room as could contain them all to injoy all acts of worship , they were then forced to sever themselves into divers companies and that in several private houses and to break bread from house to house . So that for Mr Knollys and those of his way they are not to be regarded : for all they of that fraternity are generally so given to tell untruths , that for my part , I never believe them ; neither when they say true , nor when they ly ; for they wil ly by the day & by the night . But out of my brother Burtons and Hanserdoes words and that in the name of all their brethren , I desire the Reader to observe what they both grant . And first to consider my brother Burtons expressions , for he in them accordeth to these three things : viz. First , That the Church of Ierusalem was but one particular Church . Secondly , He acknowledgeth that there were divers companies of Beleevers and that in severall private houses in that Church , which did dayly communicate in Gods Ordinances severally . Thirdly , He asserteth that all those companies in those severall private houses were but so many branches in that one and the same particular Church . Now in the second place I shall desire all men duly to weigh Saint Hanserdoes words in his reply to my second proposition , and there he aaknowledgeth that the Church of Ierusalem was but one Church , notwithstanding in the same page he granteth that that Church consisted of diverse Congregations ; for he acknowledgeth , that they had a congregation in the Temple , that is one place ; and he grants also , they had an Assembly in Solomons Porch , that is another place , and he acknowledgeth moreover , that they brake bread from house to house 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 domatim ; and thus they did 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 quotidie day by day : Here Hanserdo assigneth innumerable places more then the Temple and Solomons Porch wherein the beleevers at Ierusalem communicated and partaked in all acts of worship , and that every day , and those places were as he assignes them 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 from house to house or in every house , for so it is translated by all interpreters and confessed by Mr Knollys ; So that when Saint Hanserdo hath acknowledged that the beleevers in Ierusalem were in such multitudes that besides the Temple and Solomons Porch , wherein they met every day to heare the word , they brake bread and heard the word dayly also from house to house and in every house , then he in this doth accord with my brother Burton , that there were divers Congregations and severall Assemblies of Beleevers in the Church at Ierusalem , which Master Knollys neverthelesse denyeth , affirming , that the brethren have not acknowledged it , nor the Doctor by Scripture proved it , when Saint Hanserdo neverthelesse Vna fidelia duos parietes , hath done both . For first , he acknowledgeth there were many Congregations there . Secondly , he proveth it by Scripture as out of the first 5 chapters of the Acts : So that Master Knollys I hope will not hereafter say that the brethren have not acknowledged that there were many Congregations in Ierusalem . But I do verily beleeve that Master Knollys and all the brethren of the Congregationall way , when they shall duly and maturely consider what my brother Burton and Saint Hanserdo have acknowledged , will give them little thanks for their paines ; for their doctrine is not onely contrary to all the Independents principles , but totally subverteth and overthroweth the tenent of the Congregationall way : For all the Independent Ministers through the World preach up and publish in all their Pamphlets , that in all the Primitive Churches there were no more beleevers in any one of them , no not in the very Church of Ierusalem it selfe , then could all meet together at one time and in one place to communicate in all Acts of Worship : And this doctrine they have broached to all people wheresoever they come , perswading them that this is Gods way , and the Gospell way , and the right way of gathering Churches , and therefore they call it the Congregationall way , affirming , that all the Apostolicall Churches we read of in the holy Scriptures , each of them in their severall Cityes and Precincts consisted but of as many as did all meet in one Congregation , and this they call Gods Ordinance . And many of the brethren both assembled and not assembled , have been heard say and promise , that if it could evidently be made appear unto them , that there were many Congregations and diverse Assemblies of Beleevers either in the Church at Ierusalem or in any other of the Apostolicall Churches , that then they would relinquish their opinion of Independency , and acknowledge that the Congregationall way had not any warrant and footing in Gods word , and that the opinion of the Presbyterians concerning the combining of many Congregations under one Presbytery and their Dependency upon it , and their making of a subordination of many Assemblies under one Aristocracy to be governed by the Common Councell and joynt consent of many Elders , was Gods Ordinance . This I say , all the Independents that I have ever talked with or or by relation heard of , have promised and by protestation engaged themselves , that if it could be made appear unto them by the word of God , that there were many Congregations of Beleevers either in Ierusalem or in any of the Primtive churches that then the controversy amongst the brethren would be at an end . Now although I have in the foregoing treatise sufficiently evinced and made it evident , that there were many Congregations of Beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem , and that they were all dependent upon that one Presbytery ; yet because it is the chief point of controversie between us , and the which being sufficiently cleared , is that , that will put an end to the whole debate ; and because also Mr Knollys hath so peremptorily affirmed , That the brethren have not acknowledged that there were divers Assemblies of Beleevers there , for his farther satisfaction and for the satisfaction of all those of his party , and for the satisfaction of all men , and that at last the brethren may be the more fully convinced of the error of their wayes , and that the simple people also may be undeceived , I shall desire them all seriously to weigh and consider what both my brother Burton and Saint Hanserdo are forced to confesse ( though I must needs say thus much of them both , That they withhold much of the truth in unrighteousnesse , as I shall by and by make appear ) but this ( I say ) I desire all men advisedly to weigh , what they are both constrained to acknowledge . First therefore I will again set down my brother Burtons words , and in the second place I will repeat Saint Hanserdoes expressions : For my brother Burton his words are these , They were ( saith he ) constrained to sever themselves into diverse companies , in severall private houses to communicate ; and which is more , he granteth , That those severall companies were but so many branches of that one and the same particular Church , &c. thus he . Master Hanserdoes words are these , All the beleevers ( saith he ) in the Church of Ierusalem , met together with one accord in one place ; to wit , the Temple , and in Solomons Porch , and brake bread from house to house , and that day by day : these are Saint Hanserdoes own words . Now I shall desire all judicious Christians duly to consider both their expressions ; for all men know , that branches either of a vine or tree , as we see it in the fifteenth of S. Iohn , and in the eleventh of the Romans , they are all dependent upon the Vine and root , as drawing life and sap from them ; for being severed and cut off they do forthwith dye and wither . Now then , if according to my brother Burtons opinion and learning , and if his similie be good , That there is the same relation between the severall companies in those severall private houses and the whole particular Church in Jerusalem , that is between either the branches of the Vine or Tree , which ever depend upon their stock or root for sap and life , and for the compleating of them : then I say , by my brother Burtons own concession , There were not onely many Congregations of beleevers in that Church , but they all of them were dependent of that one particular Presbyterian Church , and were all subordinate unto it , and were to be regulated and governed Communi consilio Presbyterorum . And the same may be concluded out of the words of Saint Hanserdo . And whether this be not true or no , I refer it to the judgement of all such Christians , as have not either morgaged their reason ; and put it out of their own possession , or absolutely sold the fee simple of their understanding ; and to all such I say , as have not been prodigall in eyther of these kindes , or have not forfeited all their wit and knowledge , and so are to be begged for punies and fools , I refer my selfe as most assured they will all say and affirme , That my brother Burton with one stroke of this his Phocions hatchet hath cut in two the long thred of all the alribiadian fluent , and luxuriant rhetorications ( to usurpe his own words ) of all his brethren of the Congregationall way , by which they bound and tyed up their ill-shrouded Ill-dependency , and by this hath given a fatall stroak to that their Hydra , and indeed utterly overthrown their whole Congregationall Fabrick , and the same they will conclude concerning Saint Hanserdo . Yea , I dare in this controversie between us , make my brother Burtons and Mr Knollys their greatest friends , and my greatest enemies arbiters and judges , especially if they be not so wedded to their own resolves and opinions , that be they never so adulterated , they are yet resolved never to give them a bill of divorce ; except I say , they be men desperately besotted and doting upon their filthy and deformed novelties : were they I say , much their friends , and very much my enemies , I dare leave the deciding of this businesse and difference between us unto their judgement and determination . And I shall rest most assured , and be ever confident if my brother Burtons and Hanserdoes words be true , and to be credited , and if they both stand to what they have said , to wit , That there were many companies of beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem , and that in severall houses , where they did communicate , and that all these congregations were but so many branches of that one particular Church , which brake bread from house to house or in every house , ( as they both affirme ) that they will all accord , judge , and conclude , That they both of them have overthrown the Doctrine of Independency and that of the Congregationall way , and delucidately proved , That the Church of Ierusalem was Dependent , and Presbyterianly and Classically governed . And withall , by that I have now said , I hope that Mr Knollys himselfe will in time be convinced of his errour , and will not hereafter so boldly affirme , That the brethren have not acknowledged it ; especially when he shall deliberately read what my brother Burton and Saint Hanserdo that faithfull brother and witnesse hath written . But as I accused my brother Burton and Mr Knollys before of jugling and of indirect dealing in this so serious and weighty a matter : so here I will make it good ; for , First , They make all the beleevers of Ierusalem , till the receiving of the gifts of the holy Ghost ( which we read of Act. 2. ver . 1. ) to amount to no more then an hundred and twenty names , and so would perswade the poor ignorant people , that there were no more beleevers then in Ierusalem , which I affirm is a great wickednesse in them both , so to betray the truth and to give the spirit of God the lye , when it is manifest out of all the Evangelists , that there were infinite multitudes of beleevers then in Ierusalem all inhabitants there ; and when in expresse words , in the second of the Acts it is said , That there were devout men and true worshippers from out of all the Nations under heaven , at that time in that City . Secondly , whereas it is related in the second chapter , That there were three thousand souls at the first miracle and sermon of Peter converted , besides many others that the Lord added dayly to the Church , ver . 47. And whereas it is recorded in the fourth chap. That there were five thousand men more converted by another miracle and Sermon : and whereas it is storied in the 5 chap. upon the miraculous and fearfull death of Ananias and Saphira his wife , and through the other signs and wonders the Apostles wrought , that beleevers were more added unto the Lord multitudes both of men & womē , v. 14. mark I pray the expression , it is said , there were multitudes ; now multitudes among the Romans and in all nations is ever taken for turba or agmen , a great company , that is , for a great Assembly or Congregation ; and here the word of God affirmes in the plurall number , That by that miracle and by those other wonders of the Apostles , multitudes both of men and women were added to the Lord , that is to say , many more great Congregations and Assemblies of beleevers then were before were added to that Church in Ierusalem , all this I say is evident out of those words . And whereas it is farther related in the sixt chapter ver . 7. that the word of God increased and the number of the Disciples multiplyed in Ierusalem greatly , and a great company of the Priests were obedient to the faith . And whereas in divers other places of the Acts it is witnessed that there was increase upon increase of beleevers in that Church : And whereas in the 21. of the Acts it is recorded that there were many ten thousand beleevers there & all Inhabitants ; my Brother Burton and Mr Knollys in their enumeration of the Beleevers in Ierusalem at first and last make them but five thousand in all . My brother Burtons words are these : Growing ( saith he ) from an hundred and twenty ( Acts 1. 15. ) to three thousand more ( chap. 2. ver . 41. ) and then in all five thousand ( chap. 4. ver . 4. ) and all these but one Church . Master Knollys his words are these , Page 8 , Those places in Matthew and Mark and Luke ( saith he ) tell us of very many who were baptized by John and by Christs Disciples ; but do not declare how many of these baptized persons were of the Church of Ierusalem ; and for ought I know ( saith he ) or the Doctor either , many of those baptized persons might be in the other Churches of Iudaea , yea the most of them and but few in Ierusalem , it may be no more but those hundred and twenty mentioned Acts 1. 13 , 14 , 15. to whom were added about three thousand soules . And in the ninth page he saith the text well considered onely holds forth , that the number of men was made up five thousand . Thus he . So that in the reckoning of my brother Burton and Master Knollys , the whole number of beleevers in Ierusalem at first and last was but five thousand in all . Now I refer my selfe unto the judicious and godly Reader whether these men have not made false Musters or no to use some of I. S. his language , and whether or no my brother Burton and Master Knollys have not with-held the truth from the people in unrighteousnesse , Rom. 1. And whether they have not done most sacrilegiously , unjustly and wickedly in thus robbing the Church at Ierusalem of so many thousand Members ? For first they subduct and cut off all those that were baptized by Iohn the Baptist and Christs disciples , and all those devout men , and true worshippers in Ierusalem spake of in the second chapter , and take no notice of them . Secondly , whereas it is related in the second chapter , verse 47. that besides those three thousand soules that were converted by Peters Sermon , that the Lord added daily unto the Church such as should be saved , they subduct and cut off those likewise , and make no mention of them . And whereas in the fourth chapter the number of those that were converted by the second miracle , and sermon , is related to be about five thousand men , they cut off three thousand of these also ; and whereas in the fifth chapter it is said , that Beleevers were more added to the Lord , multitudes both of men and women , that is to say many more great Assemblies and Congregations then were before , all those in like manner they subduct and pare off : and whereas in the sixth chapter it is related , that the word of God increased , and the number of the disciples multiplyed in Jerusalem greatly , and a great company of the Priests were obedient to the faith , all those likewise they defalcate with all the other increases of multitudes the Scripture speaks of , with the many ten thousands recorded in the 21. chapter , neither doe they make any mention of them , or take any notice of them , but casting up the whole summe , they bring in the totall reckoning and number of all the Beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem at first and last to be but five thousand in all ; and all this they have done out of their perverse wilfull and obstinate wickednesse , to the end they may deceive the ignorant and simple people , ( which is a most horrid sinne and wickednesse in them thus to juggle ) who they could not delude , if they were indeed truly informed , and did not they and their complices with-hold the truth from them in unrighteousnesse ; for were the people truly informed , that in the Church of Jerusalem there were many ten thousands ; al intelligible , yea , but ordinary understanding men and women , yea very children would conclude , That they could not then all possibly meet in one congregation or a few to partake in all acts of worship , and therefore of necessity they must be distributed into divers congregations and assemblies , all which notwithstanding made still but one Church , and therefore they would gather that they must necessarily be combined under one Presbyterie , and be dependent upon it . This I affirme every rationall creature would from grounded reason be able to gather , if they were rightly instructed ; whether therefore it be not the highest point of dishonesty , both in my brother Burton , Master Knollys , and all those Teachers of the congregationall way , thus to abuse the people , and whether this be not in them all to with-hold the truth in unrighteousnesse , I leave it to the judgement of all the truly godly , and such as make conscience of their wayes and dealings . And now I come to what I. S. that Groll hath to say to my second Proposition ; for hee must be answered also , or else he will exceedingly triumph . In the 11. page of his Flagelli hee hath these words by way of answer . I am not ( saith hee ) satisfied by any thing that hath beene alleaged by the Doctor , that the Church of Jerusalem consisted of many congregations and assemblies , and that upon the scruples before instanced . Thus I. S. expresseth his non-satisfaction in that place ; and in the tenth page for farther answer , hee thus declareth himself . First ( saith he ) you say the brethren themselves acknowledge , that all the Beleevers in Ierusalem were all Members of that Church . If you meane that Church spake of Acts the 15. 4. J deny , and say it is a grosse presumption , and begging of the question , to say that wee acknowledge all the Beleevers in Ierusalem , to be Members of that one ministring Church , especially if you reckon all Iohns Disciples and converts to those Beleevers : for as there was a good space of time after there were multitudes of Beleevers , ere there was such a Church ; so for any thing hath yet beene brought to the contrary , it is probable ▪ enough , that the true Beleevers , which were not so many , after you have cut off Iohns converts , I meane those that did sticke in Iohns Baptisme , which were multitudes and temporary Beleevers , which ceased to walke with Christ , which were not a few and strangers , which did afterwards disperse themselves into severall countries , those that did remaine at Ierusalem , did gradually gr●w up unto Church fellowship ; and it amounts to no lesse , then to the former begging and presumption , that which sollowes , viz. that this Proposition is manifest out of the Scripture , viz. that they that were converted , are said to be added to the Church . For what ( saith I. S. ) if that be to be understood of the Church Catholick , and not a particular church ? It may not be denied that the word Church , is often so used in the New Testament , and it is suspicious that the three thousand converted at once , were not so soone instructed in church fellowship as converted , &c. Thus worshipfull Sir I. S. disputeth , whose words are a very farrago of errors and vanity , by which hee sufficiently declareth unto the world , that hee is in the number of those Masters Saint Paul speaketh of , 1 Tim. chap. 1. verse 7. who desiring to be Teachers of the Law , understand neither what they say , nor whereof they affirme : and confident I am , that there was never a more arrogant , and a more presumptuoas sot that ever put pen to paper , then this I. S. and whose words are ▪ guilty of more ignorance , and fuller of the emptinesse of selfe conceitednesse , and more lyable to exception ; for hee is not only a stranger to the Independent doctrine , and to the Church of Jerusalem hee speakes of ( as all the learned wil easily by his expressions perceive ) but hee is a meere novice in all divine learning , and al good literature , & a fellow very wretched & worthlesse , and such an one as deserves to be exploded out of the schools of the learned , and to be thrust out of the society of all orthodox and conscientious honest Christians , and indeed if he were dealt with according to his merits , hee deserves to be spewed out of the seven new churches , of whom , before I come to my reply , I will take liberty to say yet a little more , and as of him , so of my Brother Burton , and Master Knollys , that as they are fratres in malo , so they are equally guilty of the same sacriledge & unrighteous dealing , foras I. S. so they also rob the Church of Ierusalem , of all those Members that were converted by Iohn the Baptist , Christ himselfe , and his blessed Apostles and Disciples before Christs death , as is manifest from their words quoted before , and from I. S. his scruples hee speakes of , page 8. and 9. where hee unchurches and unchristians all those that were converted by Iohns and Christs ministry , hee also with them with-holds the truth from the people in unrighteousnes : and as if that had not been enough , in the words , I have now quoted out of the tenth page , besides his denying , that I have proved my first Proposition , which indeed is a meere Presumptiou and begging the question , to use his grollish expression , hee to all his iniquity adds transgression and sinne , which is the height of wickednesse accumulating error upon error , as will frequently appeare ; for here againe hee first cuts off all those that were baptized by the Baptist from the Beleevers in Ierusalem whom hee deridingly cals Iohns disciples and converts . Secondly , Hee affirmeth of them all that they stucke in Iohns Baptisme , and were but temporary Beleevers , and ceased to walke with Christ . Thirdly , Hee affirmeth that those that were baptized by Iohn the Baptist did afterwards disperse themselves into severall countries . And fourthly , Hee asserteth , that those that did continue at Ierusalem did gradually grow up into church fellowship . Every one of the which assertions of Sir I. S. howso ever they are presumptuously laid downe by him , as so many certaine and infallible truths , yet I attest , there is not the least warrant for any of them in the whole word of God ; no not so much as a shaddow of any authority to cover or colour them over ; yea , they are all as egregiously and notoriously erroneous as they are uncharitable ; for they are all contrary to the word of God , and to the law of love and kindnesse which thinkes no evill ; yea , they contradict the revealed will of God , as wee shall see in some particulars : for whereas hee arrogantly amongst other of his false assertions saith , That those that did remaine in Ierusalem , did gradually grow up into Church fellowship , as if they had not by Saint Iohns Ministry been made perfect Christians , I say this is contrary to the expresse words of our Saviour , Luke the 7. where hee giveth this testimony concerning all those that came out of Ierusalem to Iohns Baptisme , all which were Inhabitants and innumerable companies , for the Scripture saith , Matt. the 3. and Marke the 1. That Ierusalem went out to him , and they of Ierusalem , that they justified God , and rejected not his counsell against themselves to their owne destruction , as the Pharisees and Lawyers did , but they embraced Gods mercy to their salvation . So that by Christs own testimony and witnesse , the Pharisees and Lawyers onely excepted , all the other were good and perfectly made Christians , and in such a Church fellowship as with which they grew up to a perfect stature , without any new Church-fellowship : and therefore I. S. not onely saying , that they were temporary Christians , and ceased to follow Christ , but that those of them that remayned in Ierusalem , did gradually grow up in Church-fellowship afterwards , in all hee saith , I affirme , hee giveth the spirit of God the lye , who hath recorded the contrary , as that they were perfect good Christians , as having not rejected the counsell of God to their owne perdition , but imbraced the promises to their salvation ; so that they were all by Iohns Ministry very well instructed in their duty in all respects . Therefore both J. S. my brother Burton and all the Ill-dependents , are most abominably wicked thus with their scriblings to unsettle the minds of the people , ever pratling about a kind of Church fellowship , of which they have neither Precept nor President in all Gods holy Word , and which they themselves could never declare unto the world what it was , and ●et they are ever babling of this Church-fellowship , & unchurchying all Churches but their owne , because forsooth in their opinion , they are not cast into a Church mold after the New Testament forme , nor are not in church-fellowship ; whereupon they rashly proclame us all enemies of Iesus Christ and his Kingdome ; and it is no wonder , that they thinke so contemptuously of all those that were baptized by the Baptist , and that they judge so wickedly of us all ; for I. S. saith in the words above cited , which is another of his great errors , that it is suspicious , that the three thousand converted at once , were not so soone instructed in church-fellowship as converted . These are his expressions . From which I gather that Sir I. S. and all his complices are a generation of men very censorious , and that they are creatures full of jealousies and causelesse suspicions , and therefore that they ought by all good men to be shunned and avoyded , as both dangerous and treacherous : for here wee see they suspect those very three thousand converted by Peter , as not well instructed in church fellowship , notwithstanding in the very same chapter it is related , that they were all well taught their duties , both towards God , and one towards another ; truly if ever any people were wel instructed , they all were , in whom all the acts & fruits of faith are evident , for wheresoever it comes it purifies the hearts of al those to whom God hath given it , Acts 15. as here it is manifest it did it in that the soules of all those converts being pursued by the guilt of their owne sinne in crucifying the Lord of life , and being sensible of the wrath of God due unto them for this their sinne , their consciences also accusing them , and aggravating unto them the haynousnesse of it ; it made them all fly unto Christ , and roule themselves upon him , and wholly rely on him for mercy and forgivenesse , and wrought love also in them all toward God and Christ , and charity one towards another , the effects of which are set downe by the Holy Ghost , and fully recorded in the second chapter , verse 42 , 43. who saith , That they continued stedfastly in the Apostles doctrine and fellowship , and in the breaking of bread , and in prayers , and that all that beleeved were together and had all things common , and sold their possessions and goods and parted them to all men as every man had need , and that they continued daily with one accord in the Temple , and that they brake bread from house to house , and did eate their meat with Gladnesse and singlenesse of heart . Thus the Holy Ghost describeth those three thousand converts unto us , as not onely skilfull in the theory of church-fellowship , but also exceedingly well verst in the practicall part of it ; whether therefore in this particular also ( in that J. S. saith ) it is suspicious , that the three thousand converted at once , were not so soone instructed in Church fellowship , as converted when the Scripture reporteth the contrary , it be not to give the Spirit of God the lye , I leave it to the judgement of all the godly and impartiall R●aders ; who I am confident will give their verdict against I. S. For certainly there is no act of church fellowship , that was omitted by them , and although I love not such as will groundlessly be suspicious as I. S. is here and those of his Fraternity ; yet I am confident the Independnnts will never be induced to imitate the example of those three thousand , and I have very good reason to make mee continue in this beliefe for what I already know in their daily practises , and therefore they are rather to be suspected that they are not well instructed in church fellowship , they make notwithstanding so great a noys about ▪ therefore whether this be not a great temerity in these men , thus upon all occasions , not onely to censure their christian brethren that live harmelessely by them , but to suspect all those that were converted by the Baptist and the Apostles themselves before Christs death ; yea , and to suspect even those three thousand also that were converted by Peter , after Christs ascension , and to adjudge both Pastors and people to bee all ignorant , what church government and church fellowship was , I leave it likewise to the judgement of the prudent , & advised Reader ? And yet this is the daily practise of al the Ill ▪ dependents thus to speake of them all , as if they had not learned their lesson as well as the congregationall Predicants and their disciples , and knew not how to cast them into a church mold after the New Testament forme , and to instruct them concerning church fellowship , when not withstanding it is recorded of those Ministers that they revealed the whole counsell of God , and whatsoever was needfull to be knowne or practised by all christians to the end of the world , Acts the 20. and therefore could bee ignorant of nothing that tended to edification , and the building up of beleevers in their most holy faith . But yet notwithstanding I. S. and his brethren are still full of suspicions and yet never satisfied in any thing that can be produced out of the holy Scripture to confute their erroneous novelties : for although I had sufficiently confirmed my first proposition and proved by both Scripture and reasons , that all those that were baptized by John and Christs Disciples were good Christians and true Believers , and that there were many Congregations of Beleevers in the Church at Jerusalem , yet I. S. page 11. sayes , He is not satisfied by any thing that hath been alledged by me , that the Church of Ierusalem consisted of many Congregations and Assemblies , and that upon the scruples before instanced . And Mr Knollys in his 11. page affirmeth the same . So that it is certain these men are resolved never to be satisfied though things be never so evidently proved unto them . And it is no wonder that there is at this day such a brood of creatures in the world ; for there has ever been a generation of such men in all ages , that will never be satisfied . Christ the great Doctor of his Church with all his blessed Apostles and faithfull Ministers could never satisfie the Jewes , but they ever resisted his spirit Acts 7. Neither can the holy Scriptures now satisfie all gainsayers but they will still be doubting , amongst the which Sir I. S. and Saint Hanserdo with many of their fraternity may well be numbred . But for all such Christians as whom the god of this world hath not blinded their eyes that they should not see the glorious light of the Gospel of truth . I am confident they will be satisfied that I have sufficiently proved that there were many Congregations and several Assemblies of beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem , & from that satisfaction they will learn to abhor the errors of all the sectaries and straglers of our times , and to decline & shun their company and fellowship . And for all such as they are that will receive the good seed of the word into good and honest hearts , I desire ever to satisfie them , and not those that are resolved to be ever scepticall and ever learning , yet never attaining or coming to knowledge , or at least withhold the truth from others in unrighteousnesse : And for all such I shall not much study to give them satisfaction as being a company of unreasonable men from whom we ought daily to pray to be delivered , for all such the Lord hath given over to strong delusions , that they should beleeve a lye , because they received not the love of the truth that they may be saved , 2 Thess . 2. Notwithstanding I say I have very little hope ever to satisfie any such , and therefore may be thought to go about an impossible worke if I should indeavour it ; yet that all men may s●e my fairer dealing with I. S. because he saith , that he hath not been satisfied with any thing alledged by me , that the Church of Jerusalem consisted of many Congregations and Assemblies ; I will therefore adde a few reasons more or at least call some of the former briefly to his minde , which I am most assured , if there were no other in the whole book , would perswade any rationall man that there were many Assemblies and Congregations of beleevers in the Church of Jerusalem , which if they cannot yet satisfie him , I am confident they will satisfie and content others . And to the reasons I shall produce , I will also adde some testimonies of those of his own party for his farther satisfaction or conviction at least . All such as have read I. S. his learned works , know , that he hath not only cut of all those that were baptized by Iohn and Christs Disciples before Christs passion and ascension from the Church of Ierusalem , but razed them out of the Kalender and Roule of the Saints , absolutely denying them so much as the very name of Christians ; all this I say , those that have read his scruples , very well know : They know likewise that he granteth there were three thousand converted by the first Miracle and Sermon of Saint Peter , though he uncharitably saith , That it is suspicious that they were not so soon instructed in Church fellowship as converted . So that here by his own confession we have a very ample Congregation consisting of three thousand and six score persons . And in the same chapter it is related , that there were devout men true beleevers out of every Nation under Heaven all Inhabitants and Dwellers there , and that the Lord added dayly to those , such as should be saved ; and these were without doubt great numbers they being indefinitely set down . And in the fourth chapter we finde a new addition of five thousand men more converted ; and withall I may tell I. S. that it is suspicious ( to use his own language ) that the three thousand first converts were all men likewise , for so many learned men conceive of those converts : but for the five thousand it is out of doubt : for the holy Word of God saith in terminis that they were all men : And by the law of charity we are bound to beleeve that all those converts were as zealous for the publishing and spreading abroad of the truth of this their Christian Faith and Doctrine , as any other people ever were ; and therefore that they did make known the wonderfull things of God and what he had done for them to all their acquaintance and neighbours , especially we are obliged to beleeve that they did teach and instruct their wives , children and servants and their whole families in the nurtrature and fear of the Lord , and in the knowledge of the Gospell . And it is also to be believed that the women and all sorts of people were then as docible and intelligible , and as ready to give attendance unto wholesome and sound words and to imbrace any truth of the Gospell , as our giddy-headed people and women are now ready to imbrace and follow novelties : especially we may with all reason be induced to beleeve this that they would then be the sooner perswaded to receive the doctrine of the Gospell , in regard it came ratified and confirmed unto them with such mighty signes and wonders ; for the Iewes had often before desired signs and miracles , saying unto Christ , What signe she west thou that we may beleeve in thee ? intimating that if he could shew unto them any sign that then they would beleeve in him , and so they said unto him when he was upon the crosse , If thou wouldest have us beleeve in thee ( said they ) come down from the crosse and save thy selfe , and then thou shalt perswade us that thou art indeed the sonne of God. Now then when the Lord by his Apostles and Disciples did dayly gratifie them with such signes and wonders as that the very high Priests and Rulers themselves were forced to confesse upon the cure of the criple , that no body could deny but it was a wonderfull miracle ; I say therefore , when the preaching of the Gospell was concomitated upon all occasions with such mighty wonders , it cannot be doub●ed but that the ordinary people both men and women were easily perswaded to beleeve it , ( when the Magistrates themselves were astonished to see those wonders ) and therefore yeelded the more credit unto their husbunds and masters instructions : yea we read of many women Luke 23. ver . 27 , 28. that mourned for Christ when they carryed him to crucifying : And if we look also into the story of holy writ we shall finde that there were many women that followed him in his life time , & those honourable ones which ministred dayly unto him . Now then if we beleeve , which we ought in charity to do , that there were but as many beleeving women converted as men ( as we may for ought any thing can be said to the contrary ) then we have already sixteen thousand beleevers in the Church at Ierusalem , according to the new stile of the Church . Neither did the Church stand then at a stay : For in the fifth chapter upon the dreadfull death of Ananias and Saphira and by reason of some other miracles , Beleevers , saith the text , were more added to the Lord , multitudes both of men and women . Now this word multitude as I shewed before , in all languages it ever signifies some great company , or some great assembly or concourse of people whether it be taken in a good sense or a bad , therefore saith the holy Scripture follow not a multitude to do evil ; So that here many new great congregations of beleevers were added to the Church , besides all those before specified ; and in the 6. chapter v. 7. it is recorded , that the word of God increased , and the number of the Disciples multiplyed in Ierusalem greatly , and a great company of the Priests were obedient to the faith . In the which words there is these four things observable . The first , that the word of God increased , that is brought forth many children which were begotten to the Faith by the preaching of it . Secondly , in expresse words it is said , that the number of the Disciples multiplyed in Ierusalem , the place it selfe where being specified , that is to say they were increased and that in no small companies in that very Church and City of Jerusalem . Thirdly , it is said , that they multiplyed greatly , both the words having a great emphasis in them , the number of Disciples multiplyed , saith the Scripture , and that greatly , to shew the miraculous and wonderful ▪ increase of them , as if the Scripture should have said that the number could not be set down . Fourthly , it is said also for the setting forth of the efficacy of the Gospell , that a great company of the Priests were obedient to the faith , not a few but a great company also of the Priests , those inveterate enemies of Jesus Christ ; every one of these words hath weight in it , and being but a little pondered , will create belief from any ordinary understanding man that there were by this means and after their conversion infinites of people dayly added unto the Church of Ierusalem , not onely by the powerfull preaching and miracles of the Apostles , but by the helpe and preaching of these Priests also , of whom we ought to harbour this opinion , that now they were as diligent ( considering the great love of Christ towards themselves ) to convert and bring men unto him , as ever they were before to disswade the people from following him ; this I conceive the law of charity binds all men to beleeve , that they being now converted would study to convert others . For we see that as soon as Andrew had found Christ John 1. he brought his brother Simon to him . And after Christ had called Philip unto him , he finding Nathaniel bringeth him also unto Christ . And if we observe it , it is the nature of true grace that it is ever operative and fruitfull and will loose no opportunity of doing good and gaining friends unto it : So that all those that are really and truly converted , they will ever study and indeavour to convert others , yea they are bound unto it , according to that of Christ , who when he related unto Peter that the devill soughts to winnow him as wheat , and told him farther that he had prayed for him that his faith might not faile , added withall this lesson unto Simon Peter saying , When thou art converted , strengthen thy brethren . This duty lay not only upon Simon Peter , but it lies to this day upon all Ministers and people ; and all those Priests knew very well that this duty lay also upon them , and that by a speciall command from God long before given them , who had said that the Priests lips should preserve knowledge , and that the people should seek the law , will and good pleasure of God from their mouth . Now then if all Christians and all the Servants of the Lord in all ages studied to teach their friends and families the knowledge and fear of the Lord , as we see in Abraham and Jacob and Joshua and all the Patriarks , and they had a speciall command also to do it as we see Deut. the sixt and Deut. the eleventh , and when it was the practise of all people truly converted to do the same , as I said before , and we see it likewise in the woman of Samaria how quickly she brought her neighbours and fellow citizens unto Christ after shee was converted ; then I say we ought to think , yea we ought much more to beleeve that these Priests being thus wonderfully converted spent their strength and might now to gain Disciples unto Christ and that by how much the more they had been his enemies and persecutors . And the people without all controversie would be the readier by far to give heed unto what they taught them because they knew that they were learned and in that they had a command from God himself , to seek the law of God from their mouths , who said , that the Priests lips should preserve knowledge and wisdome . Yea Christ himselfe sent the lepers at any time when he had cured them to the Preists , and the Scriptures sufficiently declare , that the Priests were in great esteem among all the people and that they did mightily prevaile with them , so that they could perswade them to do any thing they would have them . Now when the people saw that their Priests in great companies were converted , without doubt they still followed their Pastors and waited upon their Ministry ; and the law of love binds us to beleeve that abundance of the people also were dayly converted and added to the Church by their Ministry and Preaching , and this ordinary reason and dayly experience will perswade every man to beleeve : for we see here amongst us what mischiefe a few whibling and unlearned fellows that were Ministers , have done in seducing of the people after they revolted from the truth , upon whom they still depend , and what distractions among all sorts of men and women a few unstable and unconstant Presbyters hourly make , when for base ends they fall from their principles and turne Independent Praedicants , and Itinerany Preachers ; we see I say that they have in a very short time with the leaven of their doctrine & with their sottish , wicked and groundlesse opinions sowred the whole lump of the sweet truth of the Gospell , and seduced many thousands both of men and women ( if their gloriation be true . ) Now if a few illiterate seducers in these our dayes have misled and perverted such multitudes with their novelties , and that without any miracles , without all controversie that great company of Priests that were converted , preaching then unto all the people the truth of God and the glorious Gospell of glad tydings , and not their own fantasies , and the people seeing it also dayly confirmed unto them with such stupendious miracles , they prevailed greatly to the converting of thousands : for the example of such men as the Priests were , wrought very much upon the people ; yea we see how it has been in all ages when great and rich men whether Magistrates , Ministers or people , imbrace any new opinion , what way they go , the common people ordinarily follow whether it be truth or error , rather following example then precept , as we may see it , When Moses was but gone up into the Mount , and that Aaron had built them a calf , they all began to dance about it ; and when Jeroboam set up his calf●s ten tribes revolted with him , yea it is said , Hee caused all Israel to sinne : And we may observe it daily amongst us if these grolls seduce but any giddy-headed Gentlewoman that is rich or but any inferior Lady , and make them but turne Independents , what a noise there is by & by through the Kingdom of it , and how staggering other poor unstable women begin to be . But if any great Noble man , or Courtier , or Parliament man , or some of our temporizing Presbyterian Ministers but turn Independents , or is but rumor'd to favour that way , we see what revolt amongst unsetled and ungrounded people their examples make in many places . Whereas the truely godly , & such as are well grounded , know that the stars shall fall from heaven , and that they usually chang themselvs into Angels of light and seem to be the Ministers of righteousnee , that they may the better seduce ; yet I say , such as fear God and are rightly instructed , are not moved , but they abhor the evill of their wayes , and cleave the faster to the truth , and are of such discerning spirits as they can well perceive , that it is for base ends and worldly respects that many have turned Independents ; and it is well known and can be proved , That the Independents have perswaded many if they would prosper in the world , that they should turn to their party , for that was ( as they said ) the thriving way . And it is taken notice of also , that very few but Independents are either greatly countenanced or preferred , or at any time rewarded for any service they have done their Country . Now every generous spirit , especially a constant well grounded Christian detests and abominates all such base dealings , and such base fellows as will be of any religion for earthly fading momentary and uncertain things , and therefore stand more stoutly to the truth and their ancient principles : yet such as have a mind speedily to get into the chayre of preferment , or to be in any Office , or to grow rich , they turn Independents ; and I am most confident , that whereas the Independents brag , that many of the Lords are Independents , they notoriously belye them : but this I dare presume , that if Sir I. S. can from his great and rich Independent friends , procure a yearly and certain pention to be confirmed upon my lord Tapps , that upon that condition he would turn independent , and so then they should be sure to have one lord of their party ; and then also Sir I. S. might haply attain unto the honour to be my lord Tapps his Chaplain which he is very fit for , and might also reside in Cambridge where he may so indoctrinate his plumbeous cerebrocities , as he may speedily be able to divisinate a snayle pye or a mushrome into two particles . But to be serious , if a few obscure Presbyters here amongst us that were never really guilty either of learning or honesty , revolting once from the truth through covetousnesse and other base ends , have notwithstanding with their fayned holinesse , and under pretence of their long prayers devoured so many widowes houses , and seduced and deceived such multitudes of simple people as they have done , and that in a short time , what multitudes of people may all men thinke those learned Rabbies , those Priests with all the Apostles daily converted in Jerusalem , when their doctrine was so crowned with so many miracles ? If the holy Scripture should never have delivered it unto the world that they converted innumerable companies , yet common reason would perswade every man that they must needs have converted many thousands by the Ministry of them all ; but when the Scripture relateth unto us , Matt. 3. and Marke the 1. and in many other places , that all Ierusalem went out to the Baptisme of John , and that they were baptized by him in Iordan , and were made good Christians ; and when it farther also recordeth , that there were three thousand converted at one Sermon and Miracle , and saith in the same chapter that the Lord added daily unto the Church such as should be saved , and when in the fourth chapter it relateth the conversion of five thousand men more , and in the fifth chapter saith , that more multitudes both of beleevers of men and women were added to the Lord , and when in the sixth chapter it saith , that the word of God increased , and that the number of the Disciples , multiplyed in Ierusalem greatly , and a great company of the Priests were obedient to the faith ; all these places witnesse unto the world that they came into the Church in such great bodies as they could not now bee told ; for when they came in by by three thousand at a time , and five thousand they could speedily be reckoned ; but when the increase grew so great , they were forced then to set them downe as it were by whole sale , not in enumerate parcels , and spake of them as of numberlesse companies , saying multitudes of beleevers , both of men and women , that is to say , mighty congregations and great assemblies of both sexes , in such abundance came in , as they could not be told , and as if this had not beene enough the holy Scripture speakes upon all occasions of the increase of the Word , and sets downe in generall termes , that the number of the Disciples multiplyed in Ierusalem greatly , and a great company of the Priests were also obedient to the faith , and as if this had not beene sufficient in many other places of the Acts , there is mention made of the increase of Beleevers , and in expresse words in the 21. of the Acts it is said that there were many ten thousands of Beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem ; now all men know , that all these could not possibly , no not a quarter of them meet in any one place or a few to communicate in all Ordinances to edification ; neither was there any place or roome spacious enough to containe the very bodies of the tenth part of them , and if any place could have held the tenth part of them , yet then it had beene impossible that they could then have partaken in all acts of worship to edification ; for they could not have heard the voice of their Ministers preaching unto them : for by daily experience wee see it , that in one of our Churches here in London , which will not , nor cannot hold halfe ten thousand , that halfe of them ordinarily cannot well heare the voice of the Minister , though hee have a strong paire of Lungs ; yea , I heare men daily complaine that they could not understand the Minister ▪ preaching they stood so farre off from him , when notwithstanding there were not three thousand then in the Church ; yea , and I my self have been in lesse Assemblies where all the people could not heare to edification : and therefore all reason will perswade any man , that is not resolved ever to resist the truth , that there must of necessity be many congregations of Beleevers in Ierusalem , where there were such infinite multitudes ; especially they are bound to beleeve it when the Scripture in so many places , as I have quoted , saith there were many congregations and assemblies of Beleevers in that Church , which I have at this time briefly related , that if be possible I might at last satisfie Sir I. S. and perswade him to beleeve the Scripture , and be satisfied with it , if hee will not beleeve mee , or be satisfied with any thing I can say to convince him of his error . But if all I have hitherto writ will not satisfie his tender conscience , and take his scruples out of his mind , I shall now before I conclude this point for a Corallary , desire him to heare what my brother Burton , Saint Hanserdo , two faithfull brethren of his society , have writ concerning this busines . It may be I. S. upon the testimony of two such approved witnesses , and great Masters of the Assembly of the congregationall way , will be perswaded that there were many Congregations of Beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem , though he would not be satisfied with any thing I have delivered . I cannot but often make mention of my brother Burton , and Saint Hanserdo , because all the Ill-dependents judge them to bee very honest men , and suppose that they will speake the truth , and I beleeve also that Sir I. S. hath a very venerable opinion of them both for their singular wisdome and erudition ; I intreat I. S. therefore in the first place to heare my brother Burton sapientum octavum ; it may be his words may satisfie his scrupulous and tender conscience , who in the ninth page of his wise booke sayes , that the beleevers in Ierusalem , when there were but three thousand of them , and five thousand at most were constrained to sever themselves into divers companies in severall private hou es to communicate . Saint Hanserdoes words are these , page 10. & 11. The Apostles and all the Beleevers in Ierusalem , met together in one place , to wit , the Temple , and in Solomons Porch , and brake bread from house to house . Thus they both declare their faith , and opinion cencerning the number and assemblies of Beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem , and that in the infancy of it . Now then when there were but about three thousand and six score soules at the first and five thousand in all at last , according to the computation of my brother Burton , and Saint Hanserdo , they were then forced into many congregations and companies , as having no convenient place spacious enough as wherein to break bread : so that they were forced to heare the Word in the Temple , that is one place , and in Solomons Porch , that is another place , and to communicate in severall private houses , according to my brother Burtons doctrin , and to break bread from house to house ; or house by house , and that dayly or day by day , according to Saint Hanserdoes learning , that is in innumerable places ; I say when by the testimony of these two Seraphicall Doctors it is evident that in the very infancy and childhood of that Church There were many Asse blies and Congregations , and that in severall private houses or from house to house : how many congregations and assemblies of beleevers may we suppose were then in the Church at Ierusalem ▪ when many more great congregations and Assemblies of Beleevers , were dayly added to that Church , and when the holy Word of God in expresse termes , in the 21. chap. of the Acts saith , There were many ten thousands of beleevers there ? without all controversie there must needs at that time be a mighty many of Assemblies and Congregations , and yet in the very infancy of it , and when there were but five thousand beleevers , as my brother Burton and Saint Hanserdo do both witnesse , they then had divers Assemblies and Congregations and communicated in severall private houses , and brake bread from house to house , that is to say , in every house . And therefore I have now great hope , that not onely Mr Knollys will confesse the brethren have acknowledged That there were many Congregations and Assemblies of beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem , but that Sir I. S. his scrupulous conscience also will be satisfied about this point , especially when it commeth ratified not onely by Scripture , but by the testimony and witnesse also of my brother Burton and Saint Hanserdo . But if Sir I. S. shall still persevere in the error of his wayes , and shall be so far from beleeving that there were many Congregations and Assemblies of beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem , as he will yet swear , there were no more Saints there , then could or did dayly all meet in one place or congregation , then I will conclude of him that he is a gentleman very fit to be made a Knight of the post , whether I send him , to be whipped out of his grolleries . Having for the gratifying Mr Knollys and Sir I. S. and for the undeceiving of all cordiall and well affected Christians , and such as desire to know the truth , been the more large in this controversie ; I shall now refer my selfe and all that I have said concerning my first and second propositions , to the judgement of every indifferent Reader , whether I have not sufficiently proved , not onely that there were many congregations of beleevers in the Church at Jerusalem , but that it is likewise acknowledged by the brethren , that there were many Assemblies of them there , if any credit may be given either to my brother Burton or to Saint Hanserdo : and if they shall judge that I have sufficiently proved it , both from Scripture and Reason and from the testimony of two prime witnesses of the Independent party , against whom there can be no just exception by any of the Congregationall way , they being of their own fraternity , Mr Henry Burton and Saint Hanserdo by name ; I shall again challenge Mr Knollys his promise , who hath ingaged himselfe , That if I could by the expresse word of Scripture evince there were many congregations of beleevers in the Church at Jerusalem , that he would relinquish his grollish opinion of Independency . Now therefore when I have done it both by Scripture and the two witnesses above specified , I say again I challenge his promise , and if he notwithstanding all I have writ , will not abandon this his error , I shall never esteem him to be either a man of faith or common honesty , and shall for ever hereafter proclaim both himself and all such teachers as he is fighters against God and his truth , and resisters of his holy Spirit , and such as withhold the truth from the people in unrighteousnesse . And so I conclude this second Proposition and come now to see what they have to say to the third . My third Proposition is this , viz. That the Apostles and Presbyters , Governed , Ordered , and Ruled this Church , consisting of many congregations and Assemblies , by a common Councell and Presbytery . This is my third Proposition , which is evident out of many places of the Acts , and sundry other places of holy Writ , some of which with my Arguments , I shall here relate in order as they were first set down in my book called Independency not Gods Ordinance , the which Mr Knollys , I. S. and my brother Burton indeavoured to Answer unto . And after I have faithfully related the Arguments I deduced from those severall Scriptures , by which I then made good my third Assertion , I shall also truely set down the Answer of Hanserdo Knollys , and I. S. to all those Arguments . The places therefore of Scripture , with my Arguments gathered from thence , are these following , Acts 11. 27. And in those dayes there came Prophets from Ierusalem to Antioch , and there stood up one of them named Agabus , and signified by the Spirit , that there should be great dearth through all the world , which came to passe in the dayes of Claudius Caesar ; then the Disciples every man according to his ability , determined to send reliefe unto the brethren that dwelt in Iudaea , which also they did and sent it to the Presbyters by the hands of Barnabas and Saul . Here in these last words we see that the Presbyters , and none but the Presbyters received the Almes ; for it is said , They sent it to the Presbyters by the hands of Barnabas and Saul , which sufficiently proveth , That the Presbyters in all Churches were the men in government , as who had the Ordering and authority of appointing unto the Deacons , how they should distribute those monyes , that they might be best improved and disposed of , which is an act of government , as all men ( that know what belongs unto government ) will acknowledge . Now should it be granted that these Presbyters here spoken of , were the Presbyters of Iudaea , which notwithstanding is not specified , but onely the distressed brethren in Iudaea ; yet had it been in expresse words set down , That the Almes had been sent to the Presbytery of Judaea , the Presbytery of Ierusalem must necessarily have been included in it , as being the Metropolis of Iudea ; and it was an ordinary thing for the Churches that were abroad , and particularly that of Antioch , to send to the Apostles and Presbyters of Ierusalem , as we may see Act. 11. ver . 22. and Act. 15. And by all probability Paul and Barnabas brought these Almes to the Presbyters of Ierusalem ; for he in the fifteenth chapter of his Epistle to the Romans , maketh mention of a contribution that was made in Macedonia and Achaia for the poor Saints in Jerusalem ; Whether the Apostle , saith he , was going to Minister unto them , and desired the Romans to pray for him , that he may be delivered from the unbeleeving Jews , and that his service for Jerusalem might be accepted of the Saints , which by the learned Interpreters is generally taken that Paul speaketh of this time , and that they were then sent to Ierusalem from Antioch . But howsoever , it should be understood , that these almes were sent to the Presbyters in Iudea , yet these two conclusions necessarily result from it . The first , that this expression comprehends also the Presbyters of Ierusalem as being the chiefe City of Iudea . The second , that the Presbyters in all Churches were the men to whom the government and ordering of businesses was committed , and in whose hands the power and authority lay of disposing of the very charity and bounty of the brethren to all the necessitated Disciples within their jurisdictions , and who gave directions to the Deacons how they should be distributed to the best emolument and benefit of the poor , and according to the intention of these benefactors , which , as it is an act of Government , and that a principall one , so of necessity the Presbyters must then meet together , that by their joynt and common consent and councell , all things may be rightly ordered . But in the chap. 15. v. 2. 4. 6. 22. the Presbyters of Ierusalem by name are expressed , and in chap. 16. and in Act. 21. v. 17. 18. in these words , Then they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certaine other of them should go up to Ierusalem unto the Apostles and Presbyters , about this question , and they were received of the Church , and of the Apostles and Presbyters , to whom they declared all things that God had done with them , and how that there rose up certain of the Sect of the Pharisees which beleeved , saying , that it was needfull to circumcise them , and to command them to keepe the law of Moses , and the Apostles and Presbyters came together to consider of this matter , &c. ver . 22. Then pleased it the Apostles and Presbyters with the whole Church , &c. and chap. 16. v. 4. And as they went through the Cities they delivered them the Decrees to keepe , that were ordained of the Apostles and Presbyters which were at Ierusalem , &c. and chap. 21. v. 17 , 18. And when we were come to Ierusalem , the Brethren received us gladly , and the day following Paul went in with us unto Iames , and all the Presbyters were present , and v. 25. As touching the Gentiles which beleeve , we have written and concluded , say the Presbyters , that they observe no such thing . Out of all which places , before I forme my arguments to prove That the Church of Ierusalem , consisting of many Congregations and Assemblies , was governed by a Presbytery , that is , by the joynt consent and common Councel of the Apostles and Presbyters , which made but a grand Presbytery : I shall desire all men to consider , that howsoever the Apostles in the places above specified , are differenced by that title from the Presbyters , yet in all acts of government performed by them in the Church of Jerusalem , they were for the substance of them ordinary acts , such as Presbyters dayly performe , and therefore answerably the Apostles themselves are in them to be considered as Presbyters , that is , men governing in an ordinary way , as such as had received the keyes , which is the power of jurisdiction , and therefore were in their ordinary imployment ( though at other times in their severall ministries , and going from Nation to Nation to preach , as Christs extraordinary Ambassadours ; 2 Cor. 5. they used superlative authority , which God had invested them with and graciously bestowed upon them for the benefit of the Church and the good of his people ) and I am induced so to beleeve , because the Apostles in holy Scripture are called Presbyters , that is , the ordinary Governours and Magistrates of the Church , though the more principall and primary ones , and therefore did act as Presbyters in ordinary acts of Church Government , and for a pattern to all Churches in like administration : Neither may any suppose , for all this , that the Apostles did fall lower in their power , in that they acted as Presbyters ; for our brethren do acknowledge , that at Ierusalem the Apostles acted as Presbyters of a particular Congregation ; Now then if they did not fall lower in their power by acting as Presbyters in a particular Congregation , what reason will dictate to any man , that they should fall lower in their power by acting as Presbyters in a joynt Presbytery ? The truth is , to govern and to rule the Church was the ordinary imployment of the Apostles , and therefore they are stiled Presbyters , which is to say , the Rulers , Councellours , Magistrates , and Governours of the Church ; neither , for all this , did their Presbyterships exclude their Apostleships , nor did their acting as Presbyters , deprive them of their Apostolique power , nor of that Apostolique spirit which guided them , even in these things wherein they acted as Presbyters ; for although under one notion we looke upon the Apostles as extraordinary men , yet under another , as in all those affaires of publique concernment , and in matter of government , and for that end the assembling of themselves together , we do not consider them as Apostles , for therein they did not act as Apostles , with a transcendent and infallible authority , and in an extraordinary way , but as Presbyters , and ordinary Governours and Councellours , and in such a way as makes their meetings and actions a patterne and president to succeeding ages , and of the Presbyters congregating of themselves together for common acts of Government , whether in a Presbyterian or Synodicall way . And as it is in civill affaires , and in the government of Kingdomes and States , so it was then in the Church of God ; in a Kingdome some of the Counsellors are of the more secret admission , and are generally called Cabbinet Counsellors , and are counted of as extraordinary men , and others of the generall & ordinary Councel ; yet when all these sit in a Common Councell together , to consult about matters of State and publique concernment , they ●it then together as ordinary Councellours , and every one of them has as much authority and liberty to debate things by reason and dispute in way of consultation , and to give his vote about any thing , as well as any of the most extraordinary Councellors ; and this hath been the practise of all ages . We read that Hushy when he was by Absalon called into counsell , had his voice and gave his vote as well as Achitophel the Oracle of that time ; and as in the Common-Councels and Parliaments of Kingdomes , whatsoever honour , dignity , or extraordinary imployments any of them were taken up in before their session and meeting , or whatsoever dignity or titles of honour they have extraordinarily above others , and take their places accordingly before they come together into the Parliament , yet they all sitting as Judges and Peeres in the Kingdome , the meanest Lord in the Kingdome hath as much authority there as the greatest , and so in the House of Commons : as they are Judges , and chosen by the people for that purpose , have all of them , even the meanest , as much voice and authority in way of consultation as the greatest : And so likewise in the Synod or Assembly now of Divines , the meanest Presbyter hath as much voice and liberty in way of debate and voting , as the greatest Prelate there . And even so it was in the Church of Jerusalem , when the Apostles those extraordinary gifted men , and the Ordinary Presbyters met together in counsel , they all acted there as counsellors and ordinary presbyters ; and therefore in all those particular actions of the Apostles , wee have mention of in their severall meetings , whether wee consider them by themselves alone , and not joyned with the Presbyters , or in common councell with them , those actions , I say , were done and acted by men which were Apostles , but not as they were Apostles exclusively , so as they might not act them under another notion , neither will our brethren affirme it ; for if the Apostles did preach , take the trust of the goods of the Church , ordaine Officers , as Apostles exclusively and in an extraordinary way , and as by a priviledge peculiar to themselves , it would follow from thence , that none may doe any of those things but Apostles , which the Brethren will not assent unto : as for some instances . In that ordination of Deacons in the sixth of the Acts , the Apostles there acted partly as Apostles , and partly as Presbyters ; for in constituting an Office in the Church , which was not before they acted their Apostolicall authority : but in ordaining men to that office which the Church had chosen , they did act as Presbyters : and there is no doubt but the Brethren will yeeld to this ; for if they will not grant that the Apostles did herein act partly as Apostles , & partly as Presbyters , they must then accord , that they acted either onely as Presbyters , or onely as Apostles : If onely as Presbyters , thence it will follow , that all Presbyters have power , not onely to ordaine men , but to erect a new office in the Church : If onely as Apostles , then hence is no warrant for Presbyters , so much as to ordaine men into any office , nor for so much as to meet together to consult about acts of government , either in a Presbyterian or in a Synodicall way : and by this meanes all Church government would speedily be overthrowne . Neither is it a difficult thing in our Brethren , or any other man to distinguish betweene these two : for looke by what infallible rule they make some thing in the practise of the Apostles , to bee not onely a patterne and president for imitation , but even a proofe of institution , yet decline other things practised by the same Apostles as things not onely by institution , not commanded to us , but not permitted to bee imitated by us : By the same rule , they may infallibly distinguish betweene what they acted as Apostles , and what they acted as Presbyters , and as ordinary Counsellors , Iudges and Governours ; and withall they may infer and conclude , that what they acted as Presbyters , and by joynt and common consent , it was to give a patterne and president to all Presbyters and Synods in all succeeding ages ; and as the taking in of the consent of the Church in the choice of Deacons , Act. 6. was to give a patterne for the sufferage and voice of the people in all Churches to the end of the world , in chosing of their Deacons ; so for another instance , as there were many Congregations in the Church of Ierusalem , and divers , Assemblies , and all these congregations made but one Church , and the Apostles and Presbyters who were Officers governed that joyntly and by a common Councell , ( as our Brethren acknowledge : ) Here likewise they left a patterne and president to all ages , for severall Congregations and Assemblies in a Citie , or vicinity , to unite into one Church ; and for the Officers and Presbyters of these Congregations to governe that Church joyntly in a Colledge and Presbytery , And for a third instance , as the Apostles and Presbyters meet together in a Synodicall way , and the Apostles in that Assembly acted not by an Apostolicall and infallible spirit , no more then the Presbyters did , ( as when they were writing of Scripture ) but stating the Question , and debating it from Scripture in an ordinary way , as it is at large discussed in Acts 15. ( which wee never reade they did when they writ the Scripture , ) and having by disputing , arguing and searching the Scripture , found what was the good and acceptable will of God ; thereupon they determined the question , saying , it seemed good to the Holy Ghost and us , as the Assembly now of Divines , or any other , for ought I know , upon like assurance of Scripture warrant , may doe . In this action also , and their so doing , the Apostles and Presbyters left an example and president to all the Presbyters in all succeeding ages , what they should doe upon the like occasions , for the deciding of controversies and differences of opinions in Religion . viz. To congregate and meet together in some one place , to state the questions , and to debate from Scripture , and to follow the written Word , as their rule in all things ; and whatsoever they doe , to doe it by joynt consent , and the the Common-councell of them all , or by the most voices ; but in all these their proceedings they must ever cleave to the rule of the Word of God , or warrantable authority and evidence of reason deduced from thence , as then the Apostles and Presbyters did ; yea , the very name of the Presbyters in Jerusalem , signifieth the Iudges , Counsellors , Magistrates and Rulers of that Church , who had the Keyes committed unto them as well as the Apostles : and by their place were more peculiarly overseers of that Church , as they were tyed unto it , then the Apostles ; as the Presbyters of Ephesus were in that Church , and were assigned in their severall places to execute their office , and to looke to their particular charges in the government ; so that whether the Apostles were present or absent , the Presbyters had the government laid upon their shoulders ; and if the Apostles themselves had taught contrary to this Constitution , or an Angel from Heaven , Gal. 1. I am confident the Presbyters would not have obeyed them , nor have relinquished their authority , neither ought they , but would still have kept that rule , power and authority which God had put in their hands : so that for my owne particular , I looke upon the Apostles in all these severall actions , and in all those acts of government , joyned and met together with the Presbyters , as I looke upon Counsellors and Iudges in the great Councell of both Kingdoms , where all the Iudges have equall power and authority in decisive voting , and doe verily beleeve , that the Presbyters sitting at any time in councel with any one or more of the Apostles , did act as authoritatively as the Apostles themselves , and I am ever able to prove it and make it good against any man , that the Presbyters might as well conclude , It seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us , as well as the Apostles : and may say , we have written and concluded , as well as the Apostles : As any two or three of the Parliament , whether of the Lords or Commons , may as well say , wee have made such an Ordinance , as any twenty of them , or the whole Councell , and that without disparagement or impeaching the dignity of any , when they joyned with them in that worke , and assented to it ; and in this very notion I looke upon the Presbyters in Ierusalem , joyned with the Apostles , and consider them , as in my contemplations I looke upon the Lords and Commons now sitting in the great Councell , as the grand civill Presbytery of the Kingdome , where all binding Ordinances are to bee passed by the joynt consent and Common-counsell of them all , and whose place and office it is to command and rule , and the peoples office and place to obey and yeeld subjection to whatsoever they command and injoyne , according to the will of God and for the common good and preservation of themselves and the whole Kingdome ; and that whosoever should resist this their just authority , are guilty of contumacy and are high offenders and delinquents ; for God hath laid the government upon them , and left the duty of obedience to the subjects who may not without a publicke call intermeddle with matters of government . And so in the matters of Church-government , I look upon the Presbyters as Gods peculiar servants , and as upon the Stewards , Councellours and Magistrates and Iudges in the Church , as men set apart by God himselfe for this purpose to be the Teachers and Rulers of their flockes committed unto them in the Lord ; to whom in the matters of their soules all people under their severall Presbyteries , so farre as they command in the Lord , and according to the written word , are to yeeld obedience , and much to reverence and honour them , and this according to Gods command , for it is his Ordinance . And they are not to be looked on and slighted as the fagge end of the Clergy , as many black mouthes and prophane lips speake of them : for the Presbyters , they have their authority as well grounded in the word of God , as Kings and States have theirs ; and therefore as they are imployed in a more supreame orbe , and in matters of eternall concernment , so they should bee venerated as men watching over our soules ; and all contumelious speeches against them deserve severe punishment and ought not to be tolerated : and so much the more the Presbyters of this Kingdome in these our dayes , have deserved better from the Church , the Parliament and the whole ▪ Kingdome , then any of their Predecessors , not onely in their desiring a perfect and through Reformation in both Doctrine and Discipline , but in that they have stood now so cordially to the common cause , and more for the liberty of the Subject then any before them , and have cleaved most faithfully to the Parliament , and have beene also a most singular meanes of keeping the people wheresoever they were suffered to Preach , in obedience to that great Conncell . In all these respects , I say , they deserve well , yea better , not onely from the Church but from all the Kingdome for the present , than any of their Predecessours , and their memories ought to be famous to all posterity for this their good service . And that governement that God has given unto the Presbyters , if the Lords and Commons shall now labour to establish it in the Kingdome , and to settle it on them , they may not onely promise unto themselves a blessing from heaven , and peace unto the Church and State , but also immortall praise from all succeeding ages . Having taken leave to make this digression , I will now to my busines , and prove that the Church of Jerusalem consisting of many Congregations and Assemblies , were all governed by a common Presbytery ; and that the Apostles there acted as Presbyters among the Presbyters . They that in the Holy Scripture are called Presbyters , and acted and ordered things in a joynt body and Common-councell , with the Presbyters , and exercised that ordinary power that was committed to them in the 18. of Matthew , they acted ruled , and governed as Presbyters ; but the Apostles in governing the Church of Jerusalem consisting of many Congregations and Assemblies , acted and ordered things in a joynt body and Common-councell with the Presbytery of that Church as Presbyters , Ergo , the Chuch of Ierusalem was Presbyterially governed , and by a Common-counsell of Presbyters . The Maior and Minor of this Syllogisme being proved , the conclusion will necessarily insue . And for proofe of the Major the Scripture is cleare , as 1 Tim. chap. 4. ver . 14. where Paul writing unto Timothy saith , neglect not the gift that is in thee , which was given thee to preach , with the laying on of the hands of the Presbytery : in the which Presbytery Paul was one that laid his hands on him , and ordained him , as is evident in the second Epistle to Timothy , ch . the first , vers . 6 , where putting Timothy in mind of his duty , hee saith , stirre up the gift of God which is in thee , by the putting on of my hands : so that Paul joyning in this publicke action of ordination , though an Apostle , yet acted as a Presbyter , and counts himselfe in the number of them , as any of the Presbyters that now ordaine the Ministers , may say as well as all of them together , to any new ordained Minister , neglect not the gift of God which is in thee , by the putting on of my hands . As men ordinarily in a Iury , may assume that unto themselves that all may doe , as being Actors in common . So Peter likewise in his first Epistle , ch . 5. verse 1 , 2 ▪ cals himselfe a Fellow-presbyter , and Saint Iohn in his second and third Epistle stiles him so also , The Presbyter unto the elect Lady , &c. The Presbyter unto the well beloved Gajus , &c. So that his Presbytership did not exclude his Apostleship , nor the acting at any time of a Presbyter , deprive him of his Apostolicall power ; for at that very time hee cals himselfe a Presbyter , hee wrore Scripture by an Apostolicall and infallible spirit , and yet continued still a presbyter . So that for the Major , although I should say no more it is sufficiently proved ; yet for a further corroboration of it , it is not good to reject the consent of our Brethren in this point ; for they acknowledge , that the Apostles are called Presbyters vertually , because , as they say , Apostleship contained all offices in it ; yea , they further assert , the act of ministerial power to bee the same in the Apostles and Presbyters , the onely difference they seeme to insinuate , is , in the extent ; from which it may be inferred , that in all the affaires transacted by the Apostles , properly concerning the Church of Ierusalem , they did act as presbyters , because in such acts there was no extent of their power to many , much lesse to all Churches . But when they affirme , that the Apostles power over many congregations , was founded upon their power over all Churches , and so cannot be a patterne andpresident for the power of Presbyters over many . For answer , first I say , that the Brethren , in my opinion , take more upon them then beseemeth them , and usurpe a kind of unlimited authority to themselves , that they can make what pleaseth them exemplary only , and reject whatsoever agreeth not with their opinion and humour , though they were all the acts of all the Apostles , and transacted by joynt consent , and common agreement and accord , and left in the church of Christ , as well for a patterne and president for the Presbyters and Ministers to follow in al succeeding ages to the end of the world , as any of their other acts ; and so they pick and choose at pleasure , and in so doing ( under reformation be it spoke ) I say they assume unto themselves a greater authority then beseems them ; for they can make the Apostles joynt governing of one congregation , ( for so they take it pro confesso , that the church of Ierusalem was but one congregation , ) to bee a patterne of many Ministers governing one congregation ; but whereas it is most evident , that the Church of Ierusalem consisted of many congregations , and were yet under but one Presbytery , and was governed by the joynt consent of the Apostles and Presbyters , as under a grand Common-presbytery ; this at pleasure they reject and make it no way exemplary and binding . But for a further answer I assert , that the Apostles power and authority over many assemblies , as one Church , to rule and governe them all as one Church , joyntly and in common , was not grownded upon their power over all Churches , but upon the union of those Assemblies and Congregations into one Church , which union layeth a foundation for the power of presbyters ruling and governing many Congregations ; and the Apostles practice in governing many Assemblies joyntly as one Church , is the patterne and example of that government to all succeeding ages ; and this president of the Apostles , the presbyters in all churches ought to set before their eyes in all reformation ; for what the Apostles did in the publicke affaires of government , they did as presbyters , and for imitation . Neither doe our Brethren onely grant the act of ministeriall power to be the same in the Apostles and presbyters , saving in the extent : but they acknowledge also , that they were called presbyters vertually as I said before ; and that the Apostles acted in a joynt body and by common consent , and affirme that it was fit that they should so doe , and say withall , that the Apostles wherever they came , left the presbyters and people to the exercise of that right which belonged to them , although they joyned with them : These are their formall expressions , out of which their concession my argument , yea , the whole Syllogisme , is not onely confirmed and strengthened , but the truth doth more evidently shine forth ; for if the Apostles left the presbyters and people to the exercise of that right which belonged unto them , in all churches , and the presbyters right be to rule as Ecclesiasticall Magistrates , as to whom the power of the Keyes peculiarly belongeth by Gods institution : and the right of the people in all churches , bee to obey , as they are every where commanded ; then it followeth necessarily , that it doth not belong unto the people to ordaine either Deacons or Presbyters , whatsoever they may doe in the choosing of them : nor to excommunicate or cast out any out of the Church , or to make Members whom they please , nor to rule and governe the Church , which is the peculiar right of the Presbyters , left unto them by Christ and his Apostles ; for none of all these things were ever left unto the people , neither is there any President of it in holy Scripture ; so that while the brethren seeme to contend for the liberty of the people , they plainly overthrow it ; for they grant , That the Apostles left the Presbyters and people to the exercise of that right that belonged unto them in all Churches ; the right therefore of the keyes of Government and Jurisdiction belongeth properly unto the Presbyters in every Church , who are the Officers and Magistrates appointed by God himselfe for that purpose , Acts 20. ver . 28. and therefore when the Apostles writ to the Church of Corinth , to excommunicate that incestuous person , although his Epistle be not directed to the whole Church , yet the Presbyters in that Church onely executed that act of Government which of right belonged unto them , though the people also assented unto it , even as we see dayly , and experience teacheth us in all well ordered Corporations , when the King or Counsell writes unto any City or Corporation , though their mandates be directed to the whole City or Corporation , for the raising either of men or moneyes , or about any other imployment of publike concernment , the Mayors , Aldermen , and Common Councell , and the Officers under them onely manage the businesse ; for that is their right and place ; and the people under them do yeeld obedience , and submit themselvesto what they order and command , and intermeddle not in that imployment , as knowing very well it is their right and place onely to obey . And even so it was in the Church of Corinth , the Presbyters onely exercised the Government , and ordered all according to the Apostles injunction , and the people assented unto it , and submitted themselves to their order ; and the mistaking of that place and many more hath ▪ been the cause of so much confusion in the Church at this time , when not onely the men in every Assembly , but the very women in many of the new Congregations , as Members , challenge a power and right both in the electing of Church Officers , and of admitting of Members , and of casting out and excommunicating , which before these our times was never heard of in the world , when as the right of Jurisdiction and of the Keyes , ( as I have often proved ) peculiarly belongeth unto the Presbyters ; and that the people neither men nor women , ought to intermeddle with it ; for if they should , in short time it would overthrow all Government in Church and State , and bring confusion into the world . But I conceive the cause of so grosse a mistake of that place concerning the excommunicating of the incestuous person , arose from this , that they look upon the Church of Corinth and the other Churches spoken of in the New Testament , not as Corporations , as they were indeed , but as on their now sucking Independent new Congregations and Assemblies consisting of twenty or thirty Members , such as many of those be , whereas those severall Churches are to be considered under another notion , as consisting of many Congregations , ( as that of the Church of Ierusalem ) united into one Church or body in the severall Corporations , and each of them governed by a Common Councell of Presbyters , and by the joynt consent of their severall Presbyteries , all these severall congregations making but one Church , though never so much dayly increased , and keeping still the name and denomination of such a Church , either from the place , City , Country , or Nation , or severall language , as the Church of the Jewes , the Greeke Church ; the Latine Church : or from the Cities , as the Church of Ierusalem , of Ephesus , Rome , &c. All the which though they consisted of never so many Congregations and Assemblies , yet they ever kept the name of unity , & were accounted but one Church , in their severall places and Precincts , as at this day the Church of Geneva , though it consist of many Congregations , is counted but one Church , as it is : so that I say , the conceiving of the Church of Corinth , and those seven Churches in Asia , under the notion of one of their Congregations , caused through this mistake , that great confusion that is now in the Church , and was the originall cause of the opinion of Independency , when notwithstanding it is manifest , that those very churches were not Independent , but made their appeale to the Apostles and Presbyters at Ierusalem upon all occasions , as that of Antioch ; and it is said , that the Apostles and Presbyters came together to consider of that matter ; which meeting of the Apostles and Presbyters , for Synodicall acts of Government is no weake proofe of their meeting for Presbyteriall acts of Government , unlesse men will suppose , that they who were carefull to assist other churches , did neglect their owne Churches committed to their peculiar charge , and took no course or care for the governing of them . Yea Act. 15. 2. it doth most certainly prove a Presbyteriall government in Ierusalem , out of the which place I thus argue ; Where the Apostles and Presbyters did governe , and many Congregations were by them ordered and governed , yet so , that all these congregations were one Church , there was a Presbyteriall Government ; but in the Church of Ierusalem the Apostles and Presbyters did governe , and many Congregations were by them governed , yet so that all these Congregations were one Church ; Ergo , in the Church of Ierusalem there was a Presbyterian Government ; all which is sufficiently manifest out of the places above specified , and from all the former discourse . For in the 21. chapter it is asserted , that there were many ten thousands of beleevers in Ierusalem , which could not all be contained in a few places , but must of necessity be distributed into many and severall congregations and assemblies , all which notwithstanding made but one Church , as is evident , Act. 8. verse 1. and many other places , the which congregations could not be one politique ministeriall Church , except onely because they were united under one Presbyteriall Government , and therefore of necessity the Church of Jerusalem must be Aristocratically and Presbyterially governed , yea , the very mentioning so often of the Preebyters meeting together , proves that they met together about acts of Government , from which I thus argue . That Scripture which proves a Presbytery in Jerusalem , or an Association of Presbyters in that Church , proves that the Presbyters of the Church of Ierusalem did meet together for acts of government , and did really governe that Church . But , the places above quoted prove a Presbytery in Ierusalem , or an Association of Presbyters in that Church ; Ergo , they prove that they did meet together for acts of Government , and did really governe that Church , and that the Church of Ierusalem , consisting of many Congregations , was Presbyterially governed . For the Major , the Brethren cannot deny it ; for the very name of Presbytery , signifieth a company or common-councell of rulers , governours , and magistrates ; now all men know , that governours in common cannot do their duty , but must of necessity neglect the work committed to them , if they do not meet together for acts of Government . Neither can they deny the Minor , unlesse they will deny the Scripture ; for that expresly declareth , that Iames and the Presbyters met together , and our brethren take their warrant from that place , for their Presbyters meeting apart from the multitude to consult , and to prepare matters : Yea , it is not onely set downe , that Iames and the Presbyters met together , which had it onely been for the entertainment of Paul , it is an argument sufficient to convince any rationall man , that if the Presbyters would meet together for a salutation , they did much more meet for acts of government : But I say it is not onely specified , that the Presbyters met together , but what they did in consultation in that their meeting , and what they acted upon deliberation , and that was to advise Paul , and to direct him what he should do , which councell of theirs was not lax , but restrictive and binding , verse 23. Do therefore that which we say unto thee . By all which it is evident that they met about acts of Government , when they gave an order and rule to Paul himselfe , how he should behave himselfe at that time ; and we reade that Paul followed their councell , and submitted himselfe to their order ; by all which it is most apparent , that the Church of Ierusalem was ordered and governed by the joynt consent and Common Councell of Presbyters , though consisting of many Congregations , and was Presbyterially governed . But I further thus argue , Where there were many Assemblies in Jerusalem , and many Presbyters , and these Assemblies were all one Church , and these Presbyters all of them Presbyters of that one Church , there of necessity there were many Congregations under one Presbytery , and that Church was presbyterially governed ; but in the church of Jerusalem there were many assemblies , and many presbyters , and those Assemblies were all one Church , and those Presbyters all of them Presbyters of that one Church ; Ergo , in the church of Jerusalem there were many congregations under one presbytery , and that church was presbyterially governed . For the Major , no man of sound reason or judgement will deny it . And for the first part of the Minor , that there were many Assemblies in that Church , it hath sufficiently been proved in the foregoing discourse , and is evident out of the 21. chapter , where it is said there were many ten thousands . And for the other parts of it , that the Church of Ierusalem was but one Church , and that all the Presbyters there were Presbyters of that one Church , the Brethren themselves do acknowledge it ; and they do also accord and grant that the Church of Ierusalem was governed by a Presbytery , and that it was Presbyterianly ruled ; but withall they conceive the church of Ierusalem to consist of no more beleevers than might all meet together in one place and congregation ; so that the difference between us and the brethren is not whether the church of Ierusalem was Presbyterianly governed or no , for that they do acknowledge , and would have their churches governed after that manner ; but this is the debate between us and them , whether there were no more beleevers in the church of Ierusalem then could all meet in one congregation , which is their opinion ; but whether or no it hath not by the foregoing discourse been sufficiently proved that there were more congregations and assemblies in the church of Ierusalem , and a greater number of beleevers then could all meet in any one place or congregation , and that all these were under one Presbytery : that I refer to the understanding Reader to judge of . And this shall suffice to have spoken of the third conclusion or proposition . And now according to my promise I will faithfully set down wh●t Master Knollys and I. S. have to say to these my arguments . And in the first place I will begin with Mr Hanserdo who pag. 11. and 12. thus replyeth to my first argument . The words of this Scripture Acts 11. ver . 27. ( saith he ) which the Doctor maketh use of to prove his assertion , are these , ver . 30. and sent it , viz. the reliefe to the Elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul : Here in these last words saith the Doctor , we see that the Presbyters and none but the Presbyters received the Almes , which sufficiently proveth that the Presbyters in all Churches were the men in government . To the which argument of mine , Master Knollys page 11. replyeth as followeth . It is not denyed by the brethren ( saith he ) that the Presbyters in all churches were the men in the government of the Churches in which they are Elders . But this I conceive ( by the Doctors favour ) doth not prove it ; to wit , because the almes were sent unto the Elders . Much lesse doth that Scripture prove that the Apostles and Presbyters governed and ruled the Church in Ierusalem by a common Councell and Presbytery . But in the 15. chap. ver . 2. 4. 6. 22. and and chap. 16. 4. and chap. 21. 17 , 18. The Presbyters of Ierusalem by name ( saith the Doctor ) are expressed . These are Master Knollys his own words with his reply and answer to my first argument by which I proved my third assertion , in the which I shall desire the Reader to consider , what he denyeth and what he granteth . It is not denyed ( saith he ) by the Brethren ( meaning the Independents ) that the Presbyters in all churches were the men in the government of the churches in which they are Elders . Take I pray his own expression . He acknowledgeth , that the government in all churches was committed to the Presbyters , and that it lay only in their hands as to whom it was solely delegated , so that he granteth as much as I contended for by that argument , by which all judicious and understanding men may now perceive that Mr Knollys and the brethren do accord unto this truth ; viz. that the people have nothing to do with the government of the churches in which they are Members ; so that I have as much assented unto by him and all the brethren as I desire , by the which ( if I am not mistaken ) he hath utterly excluded the people in all their seven new churches , and in all their new gathered assemblies of the congregational way , from any hand in the government of the churches : For ( saith he ) it is not denyed by the brethren that the Presbyters in all churches were the men in the government of the churches in which they are Elders . So that hereafter I hope the brethren will not be so inraged against me , if I beleeve as the seven new Churches beleeve and as all the brethren of the congregationall way beleeve those confiding men : when Master Knollys saith , that it is not denyed by them that the government in all Churches is laid upon the Presbyters shoulders ; and therefore not upon the peoples . So that now there is little need of farther contesting between us about this businesse ; seeing he granteth , that the Presbyters in all churches ought to have the government of them . But it will not be amisse a little to take notice of the contentiousnesse of the mans spirit who grants the thing , and yet wrangles about words , and that wretchedly and poorly ; and therefore I shall desire the Reader to consider what he denyeth in my argument with the reason of it : viz. these two things . First , that this doth prove it , to wit , because the almes were sent unto the Elders . Secondly , that that Scripture proveth that the Apostles and Presbyters governed and ruled the church in Ierusalem by a common Councell and Presbytery : These two things Master Knollys affirmes will not insue from that portion of Scripture upon which I grounded my argument . Now before I come to reply to both these cavills of Master Hanserdo , I shall take this liberty to say unto him that as he is a meere novice in Divinity and a foreiner to all good learning , so he is but a sucking polititian , not knowing either his Primer in that art , or his Catechisme in Theology , or any thing in the government either of Church or State , which is one of the grand errors and heresies of all his fraternity , who while they pretend to learning and would perswade the world they are excellent Statesmen and Grandees in Government , they will in time prove themselves ( as they are indeed ) a company of grolls and ninnyes ; and I hope yet to see that day that they wil be as much exploded & bafled out of their fond whimsies , as ever the Prelates were or any distempered Sect in the world . But that all men may the better see the truth and discerne Master Knollys his errors and the groundlessenesse of his denyall of my argument , who saith , it doth not prove that the presbyters were the men in government , because the almes were sent unto the Elders ; and that the Apostles and Presbyters governed and ruled that church by a common councell and presbytery , because the relief was sent unto the Presbyters . I shall now upon this occasion speak something concerning politicks , and shew wherein the soveraign power and authority in all governments consists , and in whose hands it resides ; and what are the essentiall properties or rather parts of Government in either of them : So that wheresoever they are exercised in any country or common wealth , those men only who are invested with them or to whom they are betrusted either immediately by God himself or by the election or choice of the people , the soveraign authority in those severall governments lies and is deposited in their hands that mannage them , and in no bodies else but such as are allowed of by their appointment or good liking and love . And if men will then seriously consider and weigh the government secular in all States and Countries , and compare the Ecclesiasticall with them ; which ( without any offence ) they may do , the truth will more gloriously shine forth , and the strength and force of my Argument will be the more obvious to every intelligible creature . Now all men know , that have either read or observed any thing in Politicks , and the government of the world , that in whose hands soever the legislative power lyeth , so that they can either make or enact new Lawes and Statutes , or repeale or abrogate any old ones , and ratifie both with sanctions , and who have also the power of life and death , and the authority of punishing all Prevaricators against their Lawes , all men I say , know , that the soveraigne power and authority resides and lyes soly and only in those mens hands that exercise it : And this is the first essentiall part or property of soveraigne and supreame authority in any state , and that declares unto all men who are the men in government there . The second Essentiall part of soveraigne power in any government , consists in this ▪ that they can erect and create new Offices , and new Officers within their jurisdictions , and set up new Courts and Iudges , and can conferre Names , Honours , and titles of Dignity upon them severally , and invest them all with power and authority to execute their severall places , Offices and Iudicatures ; and this is the second essentiall property of supreme authority in any state , so that in whose hands soever this power resides , they onely are the Rulers in that government , and no other persons . The third Essentiall part of soveraigne power in any state , is this , to make warre and peace at pleasure , either forraigne or domesticall , upon any just occasions , and to have the managing of the Militia , &c. so that those only , in whose hands this authority lyeth , they are reputed , and indeed are the supreme Rulers in that state . The fourth Essentiall property of superlative power and authority in any government or state is this , to have a Court of ultimate resort , to the which all men may fly for reliefe , and to the which all Appeales , by all persons from all parts , within their jurisdictions , and from all inferiour Courts are made upon any unjustice done them there , or upon any pressures or grievances by any one in authority , and in whose power it is to end and determine all controversies and differences , or to redresse all abuses , and to relieve the oppressed , so that in whose hands soever this authority resides , they onely are said to exercise the soveraigne power , and to bee the sole Governours and Moderators in that state . The fifth and last pa●t of supreme authority in any state consists in this , that they have the power of pressing and stamping monies and coynes , and setting the valution upon them , or any other monies that are currant in their countries , or have the disposing of the treasurie of those states in which they live , and have the Exchequer in their hands , and all the revenues of them , and to whom all the tributes , subsidies , assessements , customes , benevolences and collections of the people that are gathered for the common reliefe and preservation of the whole countrey or state are sent , and who have the disposing of them according to their wisedome , in those mens hands I say that this power ●esideth of disposing the treasury or revenues , they and they onely are the supreme Magistrates and Rulers in that state , as at this day it resides with all the former essentiall properties in the hands of King and Parliament , that great Councell of the Kingdome ; by all which it sufficiently appeareth , that all soveraigne power resides in them onely , and is soly exercised and managed by them , so that if Master Knollys should say that it doth not prove that the government lyeth now in the hands of King and Parliament that great Court , because the contributions , collections , and excises from all parts of the Kingdome are sent unto them , and are now at their disposing , I beleeve the great Councell would teach him a little more wit , and all those his brethren that should joyne with him in this his argumentation a little better manners . Now if wee will compare things together , wee shall find , that whatsoever can prove the soveraigne power in all secular governments to be in those mens hands which exercise it ; the same may be said concerning the Ecclesiasticall Government in the Church at Ierusalem , and of the Apostles and Presbyters of that Church , who were the chiefe Officers , and men in authority in it , that the government and soveraigne power in that Church lay in their hands onely . So that it will then undeniably follow , that my argument will for ever stand good against Master Knolly's fond cavils for the proving of these two truths , viz. that the Presbyters in the Church at Ierusalem , and in all other churches were the onely Governours in those churches , and that from this reason , because the almes were sent unto them , and because they had the disposing of the treasury of the Church : This I say , will in the first place necessarily follow . The second truth , that will result out of the words , is this , that the Apostles and Presbyters governed and ruled that Church by a common-councell and Presbyterie , both which Master Knollys vainely denyeth , will follow from my Argument . But for the farther elucidation of this truth , and that it may the better appeare unto all men , I will briefly run over the essentiall properties , and parts of supreme and soveraigne power that were exercised in that church , and shew that they resided onely and solely in the Apostles and Presbyters hands , who were the Governours of that church , and that the people had nothing to doe with them ; and for the first , to wit , the legislative power it was in the church of Ierusalem , and committed onely into the hands of the Apostles and Presbytery of that church , as who had received the Keyes , Matth. 16. and Matth. 18. For so saith the Prophet , Isaiah chapter the 2. verse 2. out of Zion shall goe forth the Law ; and the Word of the Lord from Jerusalem ; and Acts the 1. vers . 2. 3. it is said that Christ , for the time that hee remained upon the earth after his Resurrection , through the Holy Ghost gave commandements unto the Apostles whom hee had chosen , speaking to them of the things pertaining to the Kingdome of God , and commanded them that they should not depart from Ierusalem , but waite for the promise of the Father , which was that hee would send them the Holy Ghost the comforter which should teach them all things , and bring all things unto their remembrance whatsoever Christ had said unto them , and that hee should abide with them for ever , Iohn 14. verse 26. and leade them into all truth , and in the fifteenth Chapter hee cals his Apostles his friends , telling them that hee had made knowne unto them all things that hee had heard from his Father , verse 15. and hee promised , that the Holy Ghost should bring all those things to their memories , and in the same Chapter in the 26. verse Christ saith , when the comforter is come , whom I will send unto you from the Father , even the spirit of truth , which proceedeth from the Father hee shall testifie of me . From all which places , and from the 28. of Matth. verse 18 , 19 , 20. Mark. the 16. verse 15 , 16 , 17 , 18. and Iohn the 20. verse 21 , 22 , 23. and many more that might be alleaged , it is apparently evident that the Apostles and Presbyters in the Church of Ierusalem were invested with a legislative power , so that whatsoever they preached or writ that wee find recorded in the Holy Word of God , they are all the Statutes and Lawes of the King of his Church Christ Jesus , and by the which all Christs subjects to the end of the world are to be regulated and governed . The Apostles and Presbyters in the Church of Ierusalem had power also to abrogate old Lawes , and to enact and establish new ones , as wee may see Act. 15. and Act. 16. yea , they had power of life and death , of which wee have one example in Ananias and Saphira , Act. 5. yea , they raysed the dead , cured the lame , and healed the sicke with their very shadowes , and all this power was given unto them for the ratifying of their authority , and to shew they were sent of God ; withall they had the power of erecting new offices and creating new Officers , not onely in Ierusalem , but in all the Churches , as that office of Deacons in the sixth of the Acts , and the office of Elders or Presbyters in the 14. chapter , where it is said that Paul and Barnabas ordained them Presbyters in every Church , and therefore they appointed them first in the Mother-church Jerusalem , for out of Zion , ( saith the Prophet ) shall goe forth the Law and the Word of the Lord from Jerusalem ; yea , they gave those Officers their names , and invested them all with power to execute their severall Offices , as is manifest , Acts the 6. and in the 20. of the same booke , and in the Epistles of Paul to Timothy , and Titus . They also had the power of making warre and peace with the Nations , and all the Inhabitants of the earth ; for they preached and published the glad tydings of peace to all such as received the Gospel , and denounced warre and death with all manner of judgements to those that obeyed not the Gospel of our Lord Iesus Christ , 2 Thess . 1. verse 8. and to the Apostles and Presbyters in Ierusalem likewise , as to their ultimate and extreme refuge , and reliefe and helpe , all appeales were made ( as we may see in the fifteenth of the Acts , and in the 6. and in the 9. and in the 15. of the same booke ) as to the supreme Tribunall upon earth in Gods matters , in whose hands all the highest power and soveraigne authority for Ecclesiasticall matters then resided , and whose place it was not only to hear the controversies and differences of greatest concernment in Christs Kingdome his Church , but also to decide and determine them , and put a finall period unto them , the which example of theirs was left as a presi●ent of imitation to all succeeding ages for Ministers to doe the like upon the like occasions , as in that controversie that arose among the Christians at Antioch through false Teachers , by whom that heresie was broched , viz. that it was necessary to salvation that the ceremoniall Law should be observed , and that Beleevers could not be saved without it , by which great scandall was given to the weak lewes , who by this meanes were alienated from the beleeving Gentiles , because they did neglect those Ceremonies , whereupon there arose a great schisme and rent amongst the brethren to the disturbance of the Church of God. Now for the deciding and determining of this controversie , the Christians of Antioch appeale to the Apostles and Presbyters at Ierusalem , as knowing that all power was given unto them both Dogmaticall , Diatacticall and Criticall , yea , authoritative and commanding , who entring into a Councell and Synod , and there debating the busines , by Reason , Arguments and Disputation , and finding by disquisition of the whole matter , what was the good will and pleasure of God , what hee had revealed concerning the Gentiles , and the New Covenant under the Gospel , they determined the whole matter according to the written Word of God , not pretending any new Revelation or new light or any extraordinary or superlative assistance in the deciding that debate , but only exercised that ordinary soveraigne power in the church of God , which God had invested them with , and given unto them in his holy Word the rule and square of all Doctrines , and not onely unto them , but to all his faithfull Ministers his servants to the end of the world ; and in the deciding of this controversie , they first shewed and put forth their dogmaticall power confuting and convincing the heresie , and vindicating the truth . Secondly , they declared their diatacticall authority , making a practicall Canon or Law for avoyding of scandall , and abstaining from such things as gave occasion of it . Thirdly , they exercised their criticall power and judiciary authority , verse 24. condemning and branding those Teachers with that infamous and blacke marke of Lyers , subverters of soules and troublers of the Church . Fourth . and lastly , they sufficiently manifested their imparative and authoritative power in sending those Decrees unto the Churches of the Gentiles with doe this and live , v. 29. for so much the words imports , all which are acts of soveraigne power and authority in all governments whatsoever , as the learned know which when they resided in the Apostles and Presbyters of the Church at Ierusalem , and were exercised by them there ; it is sufficiently manifest that all the power of government likewise remained , and resided wholly and solely in the Apostles and Presbyters hands , and that they exercised it by joynt consent , and the Common-councell of them all , for all acts of government ever run in the name of all the Apostles , or in the name of the Apostles and Presbyters . Lastly , they had the disposing of the treasury of that Church in their hands , as all the Presbyters of all the other Churches had , for they brought the monies alwayes to the Apostles , and laid them downe at their feet , as it appeareth , Act. 4. and afterwards all the monies and almes were sent to the Presbyters through all Churches , as in whose hands the soveraigne authority lay , which they never gave out of their hands or relinquished , but upon all occasions gave directions to their severall Deacons how to distribute them for the good of the church , and for the common emolument of the poore Saints : for otherwise to what end should the almes and benevolences of the Gentiles be sent unto the Presbyters in the churches in Iudaea , if they had not beene the men in authority in those churches , and to whom the government of them belonged , and who only and wholly had the disposing of them . Now then when the contribution and releefe was sent unto the Presbyters of the church in Ierusalem as wel as the other churches ; it followeth that they and they only had the power and authority in that church which they ever exercised by the joynt consent and common councell and agreement of them all , for it was sent unto all the Presbyters in every church , and therefore they were in common to dispose of them . Now before this reliefe was sent thither , and long after that , as the story of the Acts declareth , most of the Apostles resided there , and all the Apostles were Presbyters ( as the Independents themselves doe acknowledge ) and the same Scripture that relateth that the almes and reliefe were sent speaking in the plurall number , saith , they were sent unto the Presbyters , now they were all Presbyters , and therefore they were sent unto them in common ; and if wee observe the Dialect of holy , writ through the whole story of the Acts , wee shall find for the most part , if there be any mention made of any act of government , that either all the Apostles , or some more of them are ever made mention of to be the chiefe Moderators and prime Agents in the busines , which was never carried by any one of them , or by the multitude or people ; and it it is credibly beleeved that most of the Apostles resided in Ierusalem or in Judaea till after the Councell and Synod at Ierusalem , Act. 15. and for the Apostle Saint Iames , it is the opinion of most of the Ecclesiasticall Writers , that hee continued President of the Presbytery in Ierusalem his whole life time , as hee was President in that Councell in the 15. of the Acts , and it stands with very good reason ; for many yeares after he continued still the prime man in authority there amongst the Presbyters , and knew very well the condition of all the Beleevers there , and what numbers and multitudes of Disciples there were Inhabitants in that Church , all which sufficiently demonstrateth that hee had his residence continually , or for the most part in Ierusalem , so that Paul comming thither to the Feast , as it is related , Acts the 21 chapter , was informed by him , not onely that there were many ten thousands of Beleevers in that Church , but what those Disciples had heard concerning his preaching , which sheweth not onely that Saint Iames had his aboad in that Citie , but that those beleevers likewise were dwellers and inhabitants there , and that now hee had very good acquaintance and familiarity with them ; yea , which is more , at that very time that Paul and Barnabas were sent to Jerusalem with those almes , Peter and Iames were then in that Citie , if not other of the Apostles also , as the twelfe chapter of the Acts abundantly sheweth ; and without doubt they all joyned with the Presbyters , and in a Common-councell ordered how the Alms should be disposed of by the Deacons to the necessity of the Saints ; yea , it doth most necessarily follow ( what so ever Mr. Knollys , and those of his Fraternity shall be able to say to the contrary ) for the Scripture recordeth , that the reliefe was sent to the Presbyters through Iudaea , & Ierusalem was the Metropolis citie in Iudaea , and in the 12. chapter , v. 25. it is related , that Barnabas & Paul returned from Jerusalem whither they had carried the almes , so that many of the Apostles being at that time in Ierusalem , and the princiall and chiefe Presbyters in that Church amongst the other Presbyters , it may not bee credited that they I say being the prime Magistrates and Governours did sit still and leave the rule , ordering , and government of that Church to other of their fellow Presbyters , and them of inferiour ranke , but they also acted their parts in the government at that time , as well as at others , and therefore I say when the disposing of the treasury of the Church or State , is an Act of soveraigne power , and belongs only to those that are in authority in either , and when all the Apostles and Presbyters governed that Church by a Common-councell and joynt consent , and when the almes were sent unto all , it necessarily followeth , notwithstanding all Master Knollys his garrulity , that my Argument out of that Scripture will ever stand good to prove that the sending of the reliefe to the Elders , makes good these two things ; the first , that the Presbyters were the onely men in authority there : and secondly , that the Apostles and Presbyters of that Church governed and ruled it by a Common-councell and Presbytery : yea , Master Knollys his owne words confirmes mee in my opinion , who saith , it is not denyed by the brethren , that the Presbyters in all Churches were the men in the government of the Churches in which they are Elders ; so that all businesses of publicke concernment , were to bee transacted and managed by the common consent and agreement of them all , and not by the determination of any one particular Presbyter in either of those Churches ; much lesse by any other persons or people in them but the Presbyters . And this shall suffice to have spake concerning the confirmation of my first Argument grounded upon that Scripture , that the reliefe and almes were sent unto the Presbyters of Ierusalem . And now I come to what he hath to say against my second argument by which I proved my third proposition , which is this , as he himselfe set it down in the 12. Page of his book . They that in the holy Scripture are called Presbyters , and acted and ordered things in a joynt body and common Councell with the Presbyters , and exercised that ordinary power committed to them in the 18. of Matthew they acted as Presbyters : But the Apostles in governing the Church of Ierusalem consisting of many Congregations and Assemblies , acted and ordered things in a joynt body and common Councell with the Presbytery of that Church as Presbyters . Ergo : the church of Ierusalem was Presbyterially governed , and by a common Councell of Presbyters . The Major and Minor of this Syllogisme being proved ( saith the Doctor ) the conclusion will necessarily insue . Thus Master Knollys relates this Argument , wholly passing by all the rest . And to this argument he first thus replies . I know not ( saith he ) that the brethren ever deny ed that the Church of Ierusalem was presbyterianly governed . So that he assenteth unto the conclusion , which is all I contended for by that argument ; So that by this it followeth that the people had no hand in the government for they are not Presbyters by office . And yet such is his ambition to be thought some body in the art of disputation , that he quarrels the forme of my Syllogisme , and takes upon him to shew me how I should have framed it aright ; but all those that know indeed what really belongs to learning will easily perceive the man doth but babble , and if I should spend time in trifling with him about forms , moodes , and figures in Syllogisms , who knows no more in Logick then the horse he preaches on , I might be thought as vain as himselfe ; therefore intreating him hereafter to learn his Grand-dame to suck and not mee to make Syllogisms , passing by all those his grolleries I will set down what he hath farther to reply to this argument in the 13. page , and then answer to that , and after I have done with him , I will come to I. S. that learned Gentleman and profound Clerk. Master Knollys to this argument thus farther answereth , Though the Apostles ( saith he ) were called Presbyters in the Scripture , yet it followeth not , that they acted as Presbyters , but as Apostles , Act. 15. And they cannot therein be a pattern and president for Presbyters ; First , because the Apostles had the care and charge of and over all Churches 2 Cor. 11. 28. But the Presbyters had the care and oversight of some one Church onely as Ephesus Act. 20. 28. or Philippi Phil. 1. 1. and this the Doctor often inserts in his book . That all the Churches we read of in the New Testament ( though they were presbyterially governed ) were Dependent upon their severall Presbyters page 12. And secondly , because this would make the Presbyters Independent indeed ; for so the Apostles were in the government of all the Churches ; the Presbyters of Jerusalem , of Ephesus , and of all the Churches were Dependent upon the Apostles , and the Apostles only Dependent on Christ ; by whose holy spirit they were alwaies guided in the government of their churches , and therefore they said Acts 15. 28. It seemed good to the holy Ghost and us . And though the Doctor say the Presbyters might say so , as well as the Apostles because the Elders and Presbyters are mentioned there . The Doctor might have also considered that the brethren , even the whole Church , the multitude ( how many soever the Doctor can make of them ) were present as well as the Presbyters Acts 15. 4. 12. 22. 23 , 25 , 27 , 28. and so have made the brethren , the multitude , even the whole Church Independent also ; and the Doctor might as well have affirmed , that the brethren even the whole Church might say , it seemed good to the holy Ghost and to us . Thus Master Knollys pleaseth his own humour in heaping up a senselesse and confused multitude of words and that onely to delude the people . But should I make a full discovery of all the errours of this his babble and nonsense and give a full answer to them , truly I might make a very large discourse , I will therefore study brevity and answer him in a few words , though I will omit nothing worthy to be taken notice of . But by the way I may say thus much that this his answer is nothing to the purpose and his reasons are as vain , frivilous and fond as by the sequell will appear . But whereas he denyeth , that the Apostles though they be called Presbyters acted as Presbyters and that they cannot therein be a pattern and president for Presbyters , it is a meer begging the question and a fond trifling in a serious and weighty matter , when it was sufficiently proved and that out of the holy Scripture that the blessed Apostles were not onely called Presbyters but that they were Presbyters really as well as virtually ( which the Independents themselves deny not ) and that they acted also as Presbyters at Jerusalem , that is , as ordinary rulers and officers in all acts of government , as also in that Councell in the 15. of the Acts ; for otherwise their example could not indeed have been a pattern of government to all Ministers and Presbytes in all succeeding ages , if in either of them they had acted as extraordinary men , by a transcendent and superlative power and by an inimitable authority and as men immediately assisted by the holy Ghost as when they wrought Miracles and when they writ the holy Scripture . Now that the Apostles in all those acts of government were and are to be a pattern to all Ministers in the ages to come , all the learnedst of the Independent tribe and all their brethren of New England do acknowledge it , and take the ordination of Deacons and Elders in their new Churches from the example of the Apostles in the sixth of the Acts and the fourteenth chapter of the same book , and they acknowledge and accord that Synods and Councells in like manner are one of Gods Ordinances and ground it upon the Apostles and Presbyters meeting in the 15. of the Acts , and take their example for a pattern and president of gathering into Synods and Councells upon the like occasions , all which they could not do if the Apostles in all those acts of Government had acted and managed them onely as Apostles and in an extraordinary way with a transcendent and infallible authority and by a speciall dispensation from heaven and as only peculiar unto themselves as miraculous and extraordinary governours . So that whiles Master Knollys fights against the truth and against mee , he with the same weapon wounds his own cause and overthrows the Independents doctrine , who from the examples of the Apostles though extraordinary men take their ordination of Deacons and Elders and of calling Synods . And therefore in the first place this may serve for the discovering of his ignorance and futility . As for his reasons of his denyall that the Apostles cannot be a paterne and president for Presbyters , because the Apostles ( as he saith ) had the care of all churches , and the Presbyters were limited and confined to their particular charges , they are foolish and vain , and make nothing for the enervating or weakning of my argument : for it doth not follow as the learned well know , that because the Apostles in some respects were extraordinary men and rulers , therefore in all acts of Government they did nothing ordinary or for the imitation of other Church governours ; I say this can never follow with any good reason , neither will any judicious man thus argue because the Apostles were extraordinary men and officers , therefore they did not the acts of ordinary governours ; whereas when they assembled themselves about the affaires of the Church and for the good of it , it was for this very end and purpose that they might leave an example and president to the ages to come and to all Ministers that should succeed them of doing the like ; and therefore we are ever to consider the Apostles in all acts of government to have acted as ordinary governours and rulers , and for a president and pattern to all Ministers to the end of the world . But whereas Master Knollys grollishly saith , that the Apostles were Independent in the Government of all the Churches , and that the Presbyters of Jerusalem and Ephesus and all the Churches were Dependent upon the Apostles , and the Apostles onely Dependent upon Christ by whose spirit they were alwayes guided in the government of their Churches , and therefore they said Acts 15. 28. It seemed good to the holy Ghost and to us . In every sentence , I might say word , there is an error . For first , the Apostles were not Independent at all no more then the Presbyters , but they were ever tyed unto the word of God and his revealed will and that by Christ himself who said John 5. search the Scriptures ; and Luke 14. They have Moses and the Prophets , let them hear them ; Yea Saint Peter 2 Epist . chap. 1. v. 19. teacheth us , That we have a more sure word of prophecy whereunto we do well to take heed , &c. So that the Apostles themselves were tyed to the Scriptures . And Paul the great Apostle of the Gentiles in the 24. of the Acts and in many other places makes the Law and the Prophets the rule of his faith , professing that he beleeved all things according to them . So that when Peter swarved from that rule & began amongst the Galatians to halt & temporize Paul resisted him to his face and accused him openly of prevarication : Nay which is more so far they were from being independents that they were alwayes to follow the guidance of the spirit ; they were not to move but as he directed Act. 16. Yea the Apostles themselves were subject to the Presbytery at Ierusalem and were to give an account of their actions to them at any time , as we may see Acts 11. where Peter was questioned , and was forced to give in his answer for satisfaction ; the other Apostles also were subject unto that Presbyterie , and gave an account how they had spent their time amongst the Gentiles ; yea , Paul himselfe received orders from the Presbyterie in Ierusalem , Acts 21. and was ruled by them : yea , they were not onely subject to the Church in Ierusalem , but to all other Churches also , and were sent on their message at any time . For Peter and John were sent to Samaria by the Apostles , Act. the 8. and Paul and Barnabas were sent from Antioch by that Church there to Ierusalem , and from Jerusalem they were sent againe to Antioch , Syria , & Galatia , so that they were as much dependent as any other Ministers of the Gospel ; and therefore M. Knollys is altogether in error in asserting that the Apostles were independent ; neither is that true also that the presbyters were dependent upon the Apostles any farther then they commanded in the Lord ; for there was a speciall caution & caveat made to the contrary , not only by Christ himselfe , who said to all his Followers and Disciples beware of false Prophets and false Christs , but also by the Apostles themselves , and that in the Synod at Ierusalem , Acts the 15. who bad all the Gentiles beware and take heed that they listned not to any as comming from them , unlesse they taught according to the word of God and their decrees ; yea , Saint Paul in his Epistle to the Galatians , Gal , 1. verse 7 , 8. gives them and all Christians a speciall charge , that if hee himselfe or any of the Apostles , or an Angell from heaven should teach otherwise then hee had taught them , that they should account him accursed , and the same doctrine hee delivereth to the Corinthians , 2 Cor. 10. and 11. charging them to take heed of fals Apostles , although they transformed themselves into the Ministers of Righteousnesse , and injoynes Timothy and Titus to doe the same , and in them warnes all Christians to beware of false Teachers , though they come in the name of Apostles , if they bring not the doctrine of Christ , and teach not according to sound words ; and the same doth Saint Peter in his Epistles , and Saint Iohn in all his Epistles , and commandeth them withall that they should not receive them into their houses , nor bid them God speed ; and the same doth Saint Iude in his , and the Church of Ephesus , Revel . the 2. verse 2. is commended for discovering and casting out the false Apostles , by all which and many more proofs and reasons that might be alleaged , it is apparently evident , that the Presbyters did not depend upon the Apostles themselves , but upon Christ whose Ministers and Angels they were , and the stars in his right hand , Apocalyp . the 2. verse 1. who had their authority and Commission as well from Christ as the Apostles themselves had theirs , and who preserved and protected them as well as hee did the Apostles , bidding them not to be affraid what man could doe against them , as the second and third chapters of the Revelations sufficiently declare : and therefore they were all dependent upon Christ , and not upon the Apostles ( as Master Knollys fondly saith ) who were their fellow servants , though in a higher degree and order ; and if wee duly consider the transaction of all the busines in the Synod at Ierusalem , Acts 15. the Presbyters were as much guided by the spirit in that Councell as the Apostles themselves , as I said in my Argument , and shall by and by , by Gods assistance more abundantly prove , that all the world may see the vanity of Master Knollys , who thinkes all men should take for an Oracle every word that fals from his pen , though it be never so erroneous and never so lyable to exception and just controule as that other of his expressions is , where he saith that the Apostles were alwayes guided by the spirit in the Government of their Churches ; in the which words there is a twofold error ; for Peter was not guided by the spirit , neither when Christ called him Sathan , neither when he denyed his Master , nor when he temporized amongst the Galatians ; besides the Churches were not the Apostles Churches , as he erroneously and ignorantly speaketh , but they were Christs golden Candlesticks Revel . 1. ver . 20. who walked amongst them : And the Apostles professe 2 Cor. 4. ver . 5. that they preached not themselves , but Jesus Christ the Lord and themselves the servants of the Church for Jesus his sake , and in the first of the Corinthians chap. 3. ver . 21 ▪ 22 , 23. Therefore let no man glory in men ( saith the Apostle ) for all things are yours , whether Paul , or Apollo or Cephas , or the World , or Life , or Death , or things present , or things to come , all are yours , and ye are Christs , and Christ is Gods. If the Churches therefore be Christs golden Candlesticks , and his Churches and his houses , as Paul in the 1 of Timothy averreth ch . 3. ver . 14 , 15. where he saith , These things I write unto thee , that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thy self in the house of God which is the Church of the living God , the pillar and ground of truth : if therefore , I say , Churches be the houses of God and the Churches of the living God , and the golden Candlesticks of Jesus Christ , and he be the Lord of them , and there be also a speciall prohibition given by Christ himselfe to all his Apostles and to all ministers that they should not Lord it over his people as the Princes of the Gentils did over them that were their subjects ; how then can Mr Knollys say that the Churches were the Apostles Churches ? Every man I conceive that hath any ordinary understanding , that with deliberation shall read Mr Knollys scriblings , will conclude of him , That he is altogether ignorant in sacred things , and if he had not been a frontlesse man and without all shame , he would never have published so many errors and so much ignorance as he hath done to the view of the world , neither would he ever have said that though the Apostles were called Presbyters in the Scripture , yet they acted not as Presbyters , especially when it was proved unto him and all those of his fraternity in my first book that they acted in all acts of Government and in that Synod at Jerusalem Acts 15. as ordinary Presbyters . But because Mr Knollys is not yet satisfied about that point nor perhaps never will be , for the more ample satisfaction if not to him , at least to others , I will here prove that point a little more fully ; viz. that the Apostles acted as Presbyters in an ordinary way as the other did , and after I have done that , I will briefly also answer Mr Knollys his grolleries concerning the fufferage and votes of the Church and people in that Synod in Ierusalem . But first I will prove , that the Apostles in the debate and controversie in the Synod and in that whole businesse did not act as Apostles with a transcendent and infallible authority , but as Presbyters in such a way as makes their meeting a president and pattern to ordinary Councels and Synods . For first Paul an Apostle and Barnabas , though both extraordinary men and indued with an infallible spirit , yet were at that time sent to Ierusalem by the Church of Antioch ver . 2. as servants of that Presbytery , who willingly and in obedience to the order of that Church subjected themselves to their determination , which they would not have done had they acted as Apostles and not as Members ( for that present ) of the Presbytery of Antioch ; now all men know that they that are sent as Messengers by command and appointment , as they were , were not greater then those that sent them , which is one of the reasons all orthodox Divines use against Peters Supremacy , in that the Apostles which were in Ierusalem ( Acts 8. 14. ) sent him and Iohn to Samaria , and therefore they conclude that the Colledge of Apostles had authority over him and that they were not subject to him : And the same may be concluded concerning Paul and Barnabas that they were subject to the command of the Church : And it is yet more evident out of the second verse of the 15 , chapter of the Acts , Where it is said , that when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissention & disputation with them , that then they determined that Paul and Barnabas , and certain others of them should go up to Ierusalem unto the Apostles and Elders about this question , out of the which words every one may observe these conclusions following : First , that Paul and Barnabas used not any transcendent extraordinary and Apostolicall authority in that Church ▪ neither did they challenge unto themselves an infallible authority for the deciding of that difference , which they might have done if they had then and there acted as Apostles and put forth their Apostolicall power ; yea which is more , it is in terminis said , that Paul and Barnabas had no small dissention and disputation with them , intimating by those words that they argued and debated the matter by Reasons and Arguments , as the other ordinary Presbyters of that Church did , which they would never have suffered if they had acted there as Apostles and with an infallible authority ; and this is the first conclusion may be gathered out of those words to prove that Paul & Barnabas acted there as ordinary Presbyters , and were not onely at that time subject to that Church , but Members of the same . The second conclusion that may be gathered out of those words is this , That they were sent as the other ordinary officers , and the same commands laid upon them that were laid upon the other : Now if they of Antioch had looked upon Paul and Barnabas as extraordinary Messengers indued with Apostolicall authority , they would have made some difference between them and the certain others spake of in that place ; but sending them all with equall authority and with one and the same Message and making no distinction between them , it sufficiently proveth that they of Antioch in this imploiment lookt upon them but as ordinary Presbyters . The third thing observable is this , that Paul and Barnabas with those certain others were sent as well to the Elders or Presbyters at Ierusalem about the question , as to the Apostles , for so runs the text , they were all sent unto as having equal authority and as the ordinary Governours and Councellours of the Church and as to such as sat by one and the same Commission , Writ , or Charter , and governed with a joynt consent and by a Common Councel and Agreement : And therefore they are all to be considered as ordinary Presbyters in that Councel and Synod ; and all this I say may be gathered out of that text . But there are many other Arguments to prove it , because the Presbyters all of them and that all along through the whole debate acted as authoritatively as the Apostles : For as the Presbyters were sent unto as well as the Apostles and assembled themselves accordingly v. 6. So they did decree and write the Epistle as well as the Apostles ver . 22. 23. and Act. 16. 4. they are called also the decrees of the Apostles and Elders , and Act. 21. the Presbyters say , Wee have written and concluded , manifesting unto all the World that they in that Synod sat and acted by the same authority and were assisted and guided by the same spirit the Apostles were as sitting by the same Commission or Writ : And therefore when the holy Ghost makes no difference between them in respect of their authority , but only in regard of their names , it is a very great rashnesse in Mr Knollys and those of his fraternity to say that the Apostles acted not as Presbyters , which is indeed to confute the Scripture and all this to delude the poore people . Many Arguments more might be produced to prove that the Apostles acted as Presbyters , and were no more then guided by an Apostolicall and infallible spirit then the other Presbyters ; but for brevity sake I shall only name one more , which is this , in that they stated the question , and debated it from the holy Scripture in the ordinary way disputing Con and Pro , arguing and reasoning what they should write , and what they should judge of that busines , as it is apparent in the 7. verse , and many more places in that Chapter , by their deliberate suffrages and discourses in that Councell , and having by searching the Scripture ( saith the Holy Ghost ) found what was the good and acceptable will of God , thereupon they say it seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us ; as any Synod or Councell of Divines upon the like assurance of Scripture warrant may doe . Now I affirme , had the Apostles at that time acted by an apostolicall and infallible Spirit , a when they writ the holy Scripture , and not as Presbyters , they would never have admitted any disputation , nor entred into a serious debate and consultation what they should write and judge of that matter , but would speedily have dispatched the busines , and by their Apostolicall authority , and that infallible Spirit they were led with , they would have decided the matter , and either have said , thus saith the Lord as the Prophets of old did , or take notice that what wee write are the commands of the Lord , dictated unto us by the Spirit of God , and would never have gone to consult with others about it , or debated the matter by Arguments and reasons ; which when they did , it is a sufficient Argument to prove that the Apostles acted as Presbyters in that Councel ; and therfore from all that I have now said it is apparently evident that all the Apostles at Ierusalem acted as Presbyters , and that the other Presbyters had equall authority and power with them , notwithstanding all Master Knollys his bable . And this shall suffice to have spake by way of answer to that part of his fond cavill : and now I come to reply to his Grolleries concerning the votes and suffrage of the people in the Church at Ierusalem whom Master Knollys joyneth with the Apostles and Elders , and makes them equall with the Elders in authority , misconceiving what is meant by brethren there ; his words are these , page 13. The Doctor ( saith hee ) might have also considered that the Brethren , even the whole Church , the multitude ( how many soever the Doctor can make of them ) were present as well as the Presbyters , Act. 15. 4. 12. 22 , 23. 25. 27 , 28. and so have made the Brethren the multitude , even the whole Church independent also ; and the Doctor might as well have affirmed , that the Brethren , even the whole Church might say it seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us . Thus Master Knollys disputeth not onely against all sound Divinity , but against all reason , whiles hee would make all the people to have equall suffrage and voices or votes with the Elders in that Councell ; and therefore Master Knollys shall never be my Master , who had hee known any thing concerning governments , either in Church or State , or had hee ever read any thing concerning Councels in either , hee would never have so argued : For Councels in all governments consist of peculiar and select men , who for their Gravity , Wisedome , Learning , and their inveterate experience are made choyce of , and set apart for that purpose , and to whom the rule and government of the Kingdomes and Countries wherein they live is committed : so that the ordinary people are not to intrude or intermeddle in those affaires whose place it is only to obey and to yeeld subjection to their Ordinances , and they that would goe about or indeavour to change this order appointed by God himselfe , would speedily bring confusion upon themselves and others ; and as it is and ever has beene in the matters and affaires of the State , and in the Kingdomes of this world ; so it is in the Kingdome of Jesus Christ which is his Church , all things are to be managed with order and decency , and by such men only as upon whose shoulders God hath laid that government , and into whose hands he hath committed the Keyes those ensignes of authority ; now when Christ the King of his Church hath given the Keyes to his Apostles , and to the Presbyters only , and to be continued in their hands to the end of the world , they only are to manage the affaires & government of the Church to the consummation of all things , whose calling and place it is to rule and govern them , as who have the care of the churches , who are the prime men in authority in them , for the ruling and governing of them , and the people are onely to obey them , and their Ordinances in the Lord , and are not to intermeddle in the government of the Church , or have their voices or votes in matters of government , as hath beene often proved . And therefore Master Knollys in saying , That the Brethren , even the whole Church , the multitude ( how many soever the Doctor can make of them ) were present as well as the Presbyters , and had their voices there , is altogether mistaken in his commentary exposition : for he by Brethren , understanding that the whole Church , the whole multitude of Believert , men , women and children then in Jerusalem ( for so his words doe import ) were present in that Councell , speakes hee knows not what ; for it is most certaine by the holy Scripture , that the tenth part of the Believers that were in Ierusalem could not have met together in any one place , and therefore all the many ten thousands that were there could not possibly have come together in one Synod or Councell ; and besides the impossibility of it , all men know , that the Members of Synods , and such as have their voices there , are Presbyters and Ministers of the Gospel only , and such as are sent Commissioners , and delegated out of the severall Presbyteries to those Councels for the right ordering and well managing of the government in them ; and this is their calling ; and for the other people as the secular Magistrates , Masters of Families , Wives , Children and Servants , they are every one of them to continue in that calling and statiou God had placed them in , 1 Cor. 7. and all under authority , are therein to abide , and every one of them to follow their particular negotiations and affaires , yeelding obedience in their severall places to those that are over them ; and women especially by a statute Law from heaven , 1 Cor. 14. are injoyned silence in all the Churches , and are commanded if they have any doubts , to aske their Husbands at home , and to be subject and obedient unto them , they are not to vote it in Synods , neither were women ever that I have read or heard of , before such Teachers as Master Knollys , and his Fraternity appeared in the world , permitted to have their voices in the Churches and Synods , which when it is an apparent transgression of the Law of God , I am confident that the Apostles and Presbyters then assembled in the Councell of Ierusalem would not have suffered any women to have brake the Lawes of God before their faces ; and therefore I may with good authority out of Gods Word conclude , that there was not a woman in that Synod ; for the Scripture saith , the Synod consisted of brethren , and not sisters who had never the Keyes committed to them , or any voice there , as Mr Knollys vainly asser●eth , and therefore for women they were not there ; so that there was not the whole multitude , how many soever the Doctor can make them , when the sisters are exempted , there being none but brethren . Besides it was against another statute law from heaven made by the Apostle Paul in the 14. of the Romans ver . 1. that weak brethren should be admitted to doubtfull disputations , who saith ▪ For those that are weak in the Faith , receive , but not unto doubtfull disputations or ambiguity of disputes , for they being not well setled and grounded in Religion , would have either been more imbittered against one another or filled more full of scruples , then resolved , as dayly experience teacheth all men , who see what a confusion such paultry fellows as Master Knollys is , have already brought in●o the world by admitting their weak brethren to their doubtfull disputations and vain janglings u●on all occasions . Neither will I ever beleeve for my part , that the Apostles ●ould be transgressors of their own Laws , and teach one thing and practice the contrary ; now when Saint Paul had made that law , that the weak brethren should not be admitted to doubtfull disputations , shall we think that the Apostles and Elders at Ierusalem would have admitted the whole multitude of all the beleevers amongst the which there were so many weak brethren , into the Syno● to those disputes ▪ and so have violated this law and statute from heaven ? especially can any rationall man believe this when they were not at that time so well acquainted with their Christian liberty ? For this would have tended to nothing but a confusion of all things , & would have put the people in an u●rore , as is evident from very good reason ; for if many years after the preaching of the Gospell and the free grace of God and the teaching of them their Christian liberty , they remained still so zealous for the observation of the ceremoniall law of Moses , as we may read in the 21. chapter of the Acts , that they out of a distempered zeal would have destroyed Paul , and onely because they heard that h● taught the Gentiles not to observe the law of Moses ; how would all those weak brethren have been inraged against all the Apostles and Presbyters ( may any man suppose ) if they had been admi●ted into that Synod and should then and there have heard them dispute against the ceremoniall law , condemning it as a burden too heavy for them , and to be such as neither they nor their fathers could bear ; and therefore decreed , that it should not be imposed upon the beleeving Gentiles ? I say it stands with all good reason if the weak believers in Ierusalem which were many ten thousands should have heard these disputes , it would have put them all in such a heate and rage , as they would have set the whole Citie in an uproar , to the hazarding of the lives of both the Apostles and Presbyters there , and all such as should have sided with them , and so much the more it would have incensed them against the Apostles and Presbyters , because they granted greater Priviledges to the Gentiles , and gave them an immunity from the observation of the Ceremoniall Law , which the Iewes still observed and strictly kept , so that many of the Iews going from Iudaea wheresoever they came urged the observation of the ceremoniall Law amongst the Gentiles also , as necessary to salvation : now I say if these Zealots of the Law had all both men and women how many soever can bee made of them ( to use Master Knollys expression ) beene present , as hee groundlessely affirmes , and should have heard these disputes , they would have beene so farre from voting with the Apostles and Elders , and saying it seemed good unto the Holy Ghost and us , as they would have voted the contrary ; and for this that I say it is evident from the Holy Scripture ; for in the one and twentieth chapter of the Acts it is said , that they would have staine Paul , for this their jealousie onely , that he preached and taught the Gentiles against the Ceremoniall Law , which they would never have beene offended with him for , if the Brethren in Ierusalem those beleeving Iewes , the multitude , even the whole Church , how many soever the Doctor can make of them ( as master Knollys saith ) had then had their voice in the Councell and Synod at Ierusalem , and had assented and voted against the ceremoniall Law , and for the abrogation of it , as Master Knollys against all reason saith they did , for then they would never have beene displeased with Paul for instructing the Gentiles , and all people in their christian liberty , and for teaching them that they were freed from the Ceremoniall Law , for that Councell and Synod made those Decrees for the benefit of the Gentiles : but they would rather have beene offended with Paul , if they had heard that he yet urged the observation of it amongst the Gentiles , if they with the Apostles and Presbyters had 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with one unanimous consent and agreement had , by searching the holy Scripture , found out what was the good and acceptable will of God , and from thence had decreed the abolishing of the Ceremoniall Law , I say , if all the beleevers in Ierusalem , the whole Church and multitude as many as can be made of them , as Master Knollys affirms , had been present in the Synod with the Apostles and Presbyters and should have voted with them it seemed good to the holy Ghost and to us , to abrogate the Ceremoniall Law , and to free the Gentiles from it : they could not then have been displeased with Saint Paul for observing their Order and Decrees , and for obeying their injunctions : but when they were displeased with him , for but hearing he taught the Gentiles against the Law of Moses and the Temple , it is apparently evident , that by brethren spake of in the text , & by the whole church & the multitude , cannot be understood all the beleevers in Jerusalem , how many so ever could be made of them , as he grollishly asserteth , could they have all possibly met together in one place : for then they themselves should be transgressors of their own Decrees and be offended with others for observing what they themselves had commanded , which is a sin ; and therefore by brethren there . First , all sisters are excluded ; for they are not numbred amongst them , and so then not all the beleevers , for sisters also are beleevers and of the multitude : and , Secondly , all those zelots spake of in the 21 chapter , had no vote in that Synod , and were not present there ; for they were enemies to Saint Paul for Preaching according to those Decrees made and Voted there ; so that Mr Knollys in time may come to see his Error , and by brethren there , and the multitude , and the whole Church , may very well understand that they were such as Judas and Sylas were : viz. Prophets and chosen men , and assistants to the Apostles , members of the Church in Jerusalem , of which they had store , for many of the Priests were converted and were members there , though not fixt Officers and Presbyters , and Elders , as the other were who Synecdochically were called the Church , a part being understood for the whole , which is usuall in the holy Scripture : and to these may be added all the Presbyters that came out of all the Churches of Iudaea , from among whom those false teachers were gone , and had taught among the Gentiles the observation of the Ceremoniall Law , as necessary to Salvation , which was a cause of their meeting together ; and with these also may be reckoned those that came with Paul and Barnabas to that councell from the Church of Antioch , which were the brethren spoken of as the Text doth sufficiently declare , so that to all men that read but the 15 chapter of the Acts with judgement , they will soon be satisfied , That by brethren and the whole Church , and the multitude there spoken of , are to be understood , some chosen men , men of eminency for all divine knowledge , Prophets who disputed and argued the businesses there , and debated the matter by reason , such as Iudas and Sylas were , for so the Scripture speaketh , and not the people men and women , the whole Church , the multitude , how many so ever the Doctor can make of them ; as Master Knollys and those of his fraternity dayly though falsely assert , and upon this false ground and rotten foundation laid in their own brain , would erect and build their new confused Babel of Independency , admitting all people both men and women , not onely to Votes in their new Congregations but also in Councells and Synods , and free them from all dependency upon other Churches , which tends to nothing else but to the bringing in of a confusion in Church and State , and to meer Anarchy , and therefore from all that I have now said these two conclusions will evidently insue and plainly arise . First , That all the Apostles and Presbyters , were all equally Depending upon God and his Word , and that all the Churches we read of in the New Testament were all likewise Dependent one upon another , and upon their severall Presbyteries . Secondly , That the people neither brethren nor sisters in those dayes were to have their Votes or suffrage in the Government of the Churches , and admission of members and Officers , much lesse in Synods , that imployment belonging wholly to the Presbyters in each Church , whom God had made Rulers in his Church over them , and commanded the people to yeeld obedience unto them , Heb. 13. and therefore that all the new gathered Churches , affecting an Independency , and challenging their Votes and suffrage in the Government of their Churches , are all transgressors against both precept and example . And this shall suffice to have spake in way of Answer to Mr Knollys his vain jangling against my third Proposition . And now I will briefly Answer to what Sir I. S. hath to say to it , whose words are these , pag. 11. In asserting , That the Presbyters did rule the Church , and ordinarily other Churches , whom do you hit ( saith he ) sure not the Independents , as you call them ; we grant it is their part to rule : but we distinguish ( saith he ) ? between Authority and jurisdiction on the one hand , and power and interest on the other : this latter ( saith he ) belongs to the people , the other is proper to the Officers , which yet they exercise in the name of the Church : so they ( i ) the Officers ordain , they excommunicate ( i ) pronounce excommunication , they lead and direct in all government and disputes , they have executative power as you demand pag. 93. but the people have a power and interest too , as those places alleadged by your selfe shew expresly , Act. 15. for though ver . 2. Paul and Barnabas are said to be sent by the Apostles and Elders onely , yet ver . 4. they are said to be received of the Church , and Apostles and Elders ; therefore they were sent unto the Church also ; and that word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with one accord ver . 25. imports a multitude met together ; and this to be the result of that multitude , else it were no great commendation of the resolution that it was convened and issued forth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . And though onely the Apostles and Elders are mentioned , as comming together to consider of the question , verse 6. yet it is said , verse 22. that it pleased ( not onely the Apostles and Elders ) but the whole Church also ; therefore the Church also came together to consult ; or the Apostles and Elders as a Cnmmittee , first prepared the dispute , as not counting it so safe perhaps to admit the weake to the same , while it was intricate , and then reported it , and had their assistance and concurrence ; and the Letters of resolution run in the name of the brethren ( i. ) the Church as well as the Apostles and Elders , ver . 23. and so in Ordination 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( i ) Election by lifting up the hand belongs to the brethren , though 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( i. ) imposition of hands be proper to the Officers , where there are officers as in a Church constituted and compleat . Thus speaks I. S. in the name of all his brethren in way of answer to my third Proposition , the errors of whose expressions should I but only name them all severally they would take up some time and a great deal of paper ; but should I undertake the ful confutation of them all and discover all the impiety , evil and wickedness that lyeth couched in these his words , I might make a just volumn and spend some moneths in the imployment : for grosser errors my eyes never beheld , and such as are more contrary unto the holy Scripture , and to the honour and dignity not onely of the Apostles and Presbyters in the Church at Ierusalem and in all Churches , but to the very dignity and honour of Christ himselfe the King of his church who the Independents most shamefully disthrone ) as I shall by and by make appear God assisting me whiles notwithstanding they make the greatest noise of setting him up King in his Church : And to speak the truth , though the Independents seem to hate Popery , their doctrin is Popery it self only the upside of it turn'd down and the reare made the front , otherwise there is no great difference between their Tenents , but that the Independent doctrine is more shamefully erroneous ( as will be made evident ) and more derogatory to the honour and dignity of Christ the King of Kings and Lord of Lords and to the honour and dignity of the Apostles and Presbyters and more tending to confusion and the overthrow of all Government in Church and State , all the which assertions that they may be made a little more evidently manifest , I will briefly run over and examine some of the passages in this his answer ; for to discover but halfe the errors of it , they would weary the Reader to hear them ; and to speak but the verity , he that shall have to do with such whibling and unlearned fellows as I. S. and Hanserdo Knollys are , had need to be a man of intolerable patience . But before I begin with him , I shall desire the Reader to consider , whether I. S. be not guilty of interferring tautology and great confusion , crimes he layes to my charge to use some of his own language Page 15. and 16. if not contradiction , and be not great of his own sense , and a very catechumenos , and one that hath as well need of instruction as of refutation , for as much as to me it seems unmeet , that a man should be polemically exercised before he be positively principled : these things I refer to the Readers consideration and now I go to my work . In asserting ( saith I. S. ) that the Presbyters did rule that church , and ordinarily other churches , who do you hit ? Not the Independents as you call them ; ( saith he ) We grant it is their part to rule : but we distinguish between avthority and jurisdiction on the one hand , and power and interest on the other : this latter belongeth to the people ; the other is proper to the officers , which yet they exercise in the name of the Church : So they ( i. ) the officers ordain , they excommunicate ( i. ● pronounce excommunication , they lead and direct in all governments and disputes , they have the executive power , but the people have a power and interest too &c. And in the 12. page . In Ordination ( saith he ) Election belongs to the brethren , but imposition of hands is proper to the officers , where there are officers as in a Church constituted and compleat . Thus profound I. S. I shall intreat the Reader here to take notice , what he grants , and what he denyes , and how at every turn he juggles . First he grants that the Presbyters did rule the Church of Jerusalem and ordinarily other Churches , and saith , that my Argument hits not the Independents ; for they , as he in the name of them all asserteth , grant that it is the Presbyters part to rule . So that if he had stayed here , there had been some ingenuity in him , but with the same breath he blasteth yea bloweth down all that he had formerly set up , and that with a windy vain American distinction ( which he hath borrowed out of some of those monstrous Pamphlets that come from thence , called the way and the keyes , &c. which are fraught with nothing ●ut Peacocks , Parrets , and Jackanapes or more mischievous things though gayly set forth ) with the which he befooles himself and amases yea deceives the poor and ignorant people whiles they go gazing after them : For saith he , We distinguish between authority and jurisdiction on the one hand and power and interest on the other , and this latter belongs unto the people , the other is proper to the officers , &c. But before I come to my answer , I must tell I. S. that from whom soever he hath borrowed this distinction it is groundlesse and has no Warrant for it in sacred writ ; yea I hope to make it good that it is contrary unto it , and therefore it was well said by a learned Professor of Divinity in the University of Oxford , that it was an easie thing to finde distinctions in schoolmen to mocke God and destroy their own souls , and thereupon exhorted all his Scollers to be very carefull lest out of respect to mens persons and from the conceipt they had of their piety and abilities in learning they were not deceived : And the same exhortation may now in these our dayes be of very good use , especially when a lying spirit is gone out into innumerable false Prophets as it did in Ahab his time and when a spirit of error is gone out into the world and is to be found in every house of the Independents in all these regards , I say the caveat and exhortation of that reverend Divine may now be very usefull and serviceable for these our times . And therefore it stands all men upon to prove and examine all things according to the Apostles rule 1 Thess . 5. ver . 21 , and hold fast that which is good . Now in Divine matters and in the matters of our God we must be especially careful that we see a ground & warrant out of his word , or from excellent reason or good consequences deduced from thence ; for whatsoever opinion or distinction in sacred things shall be brought and propounded unto us , and if it have not its authority or ground from thence or some example or president or sollid reason or good consequence out of the same word to warrant and confirm it , it is to be rejected by all good Christians , especially if it consist of captious , doubtful and ambiguous expressions , and which will admit of various and different interpretations , and to all the rest be found contrary to the word of God , as this grollish distinction brought by I. S. doth : for he makes a distinction between authority and jurisdiction on the one hand , and power and interest on the other , as if there were some vast difference between them when all learned men know , that authority , jurisdiction and power are all one , as when a Magistrate making use of either of these words says such an one is under my authority or jurisdiction or power , all men know that either of those words signifies his authority over him and those expressions intimate one & the same thing . But as for the word interest which he makes a Synonima with power , it is a meer grollery , for that is a word of ambiguity and of various significations , and admits of divers interpretations , and therefore cannot be the same with power , the meaning of the which I am confident that I. S. himselfe knoweth not , but this word serves the turne of our American brethren and those of the Congregationall way here to juggle withall : But if a man would but seriously consider and weigh what the meaning of this word interest signifieth in their dialect , and what they understand by it , if they would speak out , they shall finde that by that distinction of power and interest in the people , by interest they mean and understand a title or right or due in the people , both to the property and possession of all the power in Church and State and beleeve that it is originally and radically in the people and that it is properly their due and right , and from them onely delegated to the officers of Church and State , whom as they do betrust with it , so they may at pleasure take it from them again ; and this that I now say the Pamphlets of these times many of them can witnesse is their meaning by interest ; amongst others that of Englands birth right and John Lilburns learned Letter who in the 14 Page of the same hath these words . For my part ( saith he ) I looke upon the House of Commons as the supreme power of England , who have residing in them that power that is inherent in the people , who yet are not to act according to their owne wils and pleasures , but according to the constitutions and customes of the Land , &c. out of whose words it is apparently evident , that they make all power to be inherently in the people as their birth-right , to which they may at any time make as good title and claime as to their inheritance , and that they in their language call interest , & this also can be proved out of many of the Independents Pamplets , and from their words , that if they conceive the Parliament use not that power they are intrusted with , according to the constitutions and customes of the land , they may at any time by the people be devested of it , or at least questioned ; I am confident I say there would be no great difficulty to prove as much as I now say has beene uttered by the Sectaries of these our times , and I am most assured if they increase but to a little greater number , that unlesse the Lord shew his mighty power in preserving the Parliament , if they should in the least displease them , and not humour them to their content , they would put that in execution , and really act what now they but mutter in corners , and set forth in libellous Pamphlets , and in warning peeces , as in Londons late Warning-peece ; so that this truth is very wel knowne that by power and interest in the Independents language , which they place in the people and not in the officers , they meane the soveraigne and supreme authority , and all say that it is their peculiar birth-right , and that they are the Parliament and Iudges , and that the officers are but their servants , either to prepare matters for their hearing , or for executing of what they would have them to doe , and that whatsoever they speake of authority and jurisdiction in the officers , it is onely to please them a little by putting a rattle into their hand that may looke gayly , and make a little noyse but have no strength in it : for they keepe all power in their owne hands , and this I hope to make good out of I. S. his distinction , and that to the dishonour of God himselfe , as well as to the overthrowing of all authority in time through the world , and therefore this distinction must necessarily be against the word of God. But that my charge against I. S. and those of his party , ( for hee writeth in the name of them all ) may the better appeare to all that shall reade this Booke , I will here againe repeate his answer to my Argument with his distinction : The Jndependents ( saith hee ) grant that it is the Presbyters part to rule , but ( saith he ) wee distinguish betweene authority and jurisdiction on the one hand , and power and interest on the other : this latter belongs unto the people , the other is proper to the officers which they exercise in the name of the Church , &c. If hee had said in the name of Christ it had been better ; but all error is like unto sinne , it seldome goes single and alone , for here I. S. commits a multiforme error in robbing not onely the Presbyters and Ministers of Christ of their due honour , but in robbing also the Lord of life himselfe of his dignity and royaltie , and making all the Ministers and Officers of Iesus Christ , and his peculiar servants but the vassales and slaves of the people who they call the Church , so that according to I. S. his learning all the Officers and Ministers of Christ are at the peoples disposing , for they are all of them to act as the Church directs them , and they must doe it alwayes in the name of the Church , and this is the Hysteron Proteron Divinity of the Independents , in all which they deale most wickedly on every side , so that when they seeme to speake the Ministers fairest , they abuse them to their face ; for here I. S. by that distinction of his would perswade the world that the Independents give great honour to the Ministers , in saying that authority and jurisdiction belongs unto them and is theirs properly , and that only power and interest belongs unto the people , and yet in the same breath before hee hath passed two steps , by his owne description of the power and interest which hee grants unto the people , hee gives away all that authority and jurisdiction that hee spake of a little before , not onely from all the Ministers and Presbyters of the Gospel , but from Christ himselfe the King of his Church , and invests the people with it , which hee cals the Church , saying , that the Officers are to exercise their authority and jurisdiction in the name of the Church , so that it is evident according to his Divinity that the Ministers of Iesus Christ are but the slaves of the people ; and that all men may see that this is his meaning , he in the 12. page saith , that the very Apostles and Elders in the Councell and Synod at Ierusalem were but as a Committee to prepare the dispute , and then to report it for the assistance nnd concurrence of the multitude ; these are his owne words , by all which , if hegives not the people , by his distinction of power and interest , a greater authority then hee gives unto the Apostles and Presbyters , and to Christ himself , let every ingenious man judge , which is not only a horrid impiety , but abominable in justice & sacriledge : yea every man may plainly perceive , & that out of his own words , and from the language of al the Independents , that he invests the people with all authority under that distinction of power and interest ; for in saying in the same pag. that in ordination , election of officers belongs unto the brethren , and imposition of hands to the officers , where there are officers , as in a Church constituted and compleate , by these words hee invests the people with all full and ample authority as any men are capable of or can be betrusted with : for amongst many of the Independents to my knowledge , they make nothing of ordination and imposition of hands , and count it but a complement that makes nothing to the essence of any officers ( as they say ) for they assert that it is sufficient to make any man an Officer or Minister if hee be once chosen by the people , and it is the election of the church , and their call as they say that makes officers , without which they affirme they can bee no true officers ; so that if election be the maine and essentiall busines required for the making of Church-officers , and as they teach their followers , and they give the power of election to the church or people , and affirme that all things are ever to be done in the name of the church , it matters not with them whether they be ordained , or have any imposition of hands or no ; that being in their dialect but a complement , or a needless ceremony ( for so I have heard them speak ) the which ordination also , though they say it belongeth unto officers , notwithstanding the church and people make no scruple to exercise it at any time and to put it in execution if they thinke it fit , as the practise of the new gathered Churches daily teaches all men ; yea , wee may gather as much out of I. S. his owne expressions , that the power of ordination as well as of election resides in the people and lies in their hands , who saith , that imposition of hands is proper to the officers where there are officers in a Church constituted and compleate , intimating that if they have no Church-officers they themselves may then ordaine them , and this is the practise of some of the churches of the congregationall way , by all which their language and proceedings , if by their distinction of power and interest they doe not assume & arrogate all power to themselvs , and take it into their owne hands , and invest the people with plenary authority over all Ministers in Church and State , I know not what it is to conferre authority on any people . It is most notoriously knowne , that our Independent Gentlemen would place all authority in the people , and would have the Magistrates and Ministers in Church and State all dependent upon them , and expect their election and ordination from them , and they onely would be independent ; and all this may be gathered not only from their words and practises , and out of all their Pamphlets , but even from I. S. his owne distinction of power and interest , which hee saith belongs unto the people : having thus from their owne Principles sufficiently elucidated that by the Independents doctrine , and by their distinction of power and interest they assume all authority to themselves , whiles they pretend they give authority and jurisdiction to the Ministers ; I will now set forth their wickednesse in sh●wing how they rob Christ of his honour , and the Apostles also and Presbyters of Ierusalem of their dignity and power as well as they doe all other ordinary Presbyters of their due honour and authority . And I will first begin with their dealing towards Christ the King and Lord of his Church which is his Kingdome . All those that know how the Kingdomes and Empires of the world a●e governed , know that all their Councels , Embassadours , Judges , Rulers and Officers under them , either in the time of peace or warre , in all their acts of government ▪ and in all their precepts and mandates , whether Imparative or Prohibitive , and in all their Courts of Judicature , transact and passe all things with all their writs and summons in the name of the King or Emperour ▪ and for any Magistrate or any Court to issue out any writ , warrant , mandate or summons in their owne name , and by their owne authority makes them fall into a Praemunire , and makes them guilty laesae majestatis ; so that all warrants run in the name of the King or Emperour ; and whosoever fayleth in this kind , as not to command in the Kings or Emperours name , doth make himselfe a Delinquent , and this if I am not mistaken was one of the charges against the Prelate of Canterbury , that hee issued out writs and summons in his owne name , or in the name of his Court. Now Christ is the eternall King of his Church , that immortall and mighty Potentate , in whose name all the Prophets of old ●ssued out all their warrants and mandates , speaking ever to the people in the name of the Lord , saying , thus saith the Lord ; nothing was done in the name of the Church , or in the name of any creature in those dayes , and God never changed the stile of issuing out his warrants , neither did Christ resigne his regall dignity , or put it into the hands of the Church , but is still their King , and he keepes the same tenure still all through the New Testament as well as through the old , commanding that all should be done in the name of God , saying , Matth. 28 , 19. Goe ye therefore , and teach all nations , baptizing them in the name of the Father , and of the Sonne , and of the Holy Ghost ; teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you ; and loe , I am with you all even to the end of the world , amen . By the way take notice the very Apostles themselves were limited what to preach , they might not exceed their bounds , they must teach nothing but what Christ the King of his ●hurch commanded them ; but Christ never taught his Apostles or any of his true Ministers , to issue out any thing in their owne name , for that was the custome of all false Teachers ; neither did hee ever teach them to issue out any thing in the Churches name , or say unto them at at any time , what you doe in all Administrations let it be done in the Churches name ; Christ I say taught nothing of all this ; that is but the new blasphemous stile of our new gathered churches , and of our new church officers , who J. S. sayes must exercise their authority & Iurisdiction in the name of the church ; whereas Christ our King and Law-giver , as in the place above quoted , so in Mark 16. v. 17. In my name ( saith he ) they shall cast out Devils , &c. all in the church was to bee done by all the faithfull Ministers and people of God in Christs name , the King of his church . And so S. Peter accoring to his Masters command in his Sermon in the 2. of the Acts , preaching unto all the people and new converts , sayes nothing to them in the name of the Church , but in the 38. verse saith , Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of the Lord Iesus Christ , &c. H●e was a faithfull officer , and did nothing in the churches name : hee was not acquainted with our new Divinity ; and in the 3. chapter , when hee cured the Creeple . verse the 6. In the name of Iesus Christ of Nazareth ( saith hee ) rise and walke ; and so Saint Paul had learned his Lesson well , who when hee cast out the spirit of Divination out of the Damosell in the 16. of the Acts , verse 18. saith unto it , I command thee in the name of Iesus Christ to come out of her , and hee came out at the same houre . Nothing was done in those dayes in the Churches name , but in the name of their King Iesus Christ ; to omit many other places , we have a speciall command in the 3. of the Coloss . verse 17. whatsoever you doe ( saith the Apostle ) in word or deed , doe all in the name of the Lord Iesus , giving thankes to God , and the Father by him : all Christians are bound to doe all in Christ their Kings name . Yea , the Apostle in the 1 of the Corinth . the fifth chapter , verse the 3. and 4. teaching the Corinthians , and in them all Christians , in whose name all acts of Church governemt should be managed and exercised , saith I verely as absent in body but present in spirit have judged already , that hee that hath done this doed , in the name of our Lord Iesus Christ when ye are gathered together , and my spirit , with the power of our Lord Iesus Christ , to deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh , that the spirit may bee saved in the day of the Lord Iesus . Here the Apostle teacheth all Ministers of all Churches , that as all beleevers are to be received into the Church in the name of the Lord Iesus their King ; so when any for their disorderly walking are to be cast out , they are to exercise all those acts of government , and to cast them out in the name of the Lord Iesus Christ their King , hee knew nothing of this new stile , that our Independents and learned I. S. publish to the world , who in terminis saith , that that Authority and Iurisdiction that is proper to the officers is to be exercised in the name of the Church ; these are his words , in the name of all his brethren , saying , the Officers ordaine , and they pronounce excommunication , they leade and direct in al government & disputes , & have the executive power , but the people have a power and interest too ; that is in his learning , the officers must yet exercise their power and Iurisdiction in the name of the Church , so that the Ministers are but the churches servants at pleasure , and their executioners . This is our American Divinity , so that whereas wee are taught by Christ himselfe , and all his blessed Apostles to doe all in the Church in the name of Christ our King , these our confiding brethren , and our Itinerary Ill-dependent Predicants have brought in a new stile of exercising all acts of church government , and that not in Christ the Kings name , but in the name of the Church ; and whereas the Church of Jesus Christ is the most absolute Monarchy in the world , in the which all things should be done and acted according to his command , and in his name , they have changed this Monarchy into so many thousand sucking Democrasies , or rather so many Anarchies , in all the which they transact all things , and send out all their Writs & Warrants in the name of their severall new Churches , and so have dis-throned Christ , whom notwithstanding they pretend to set up as King in his Church . But whether in this their so dealing with Christ , and with his people and subjects they are not more Independently and arrogantly blasphemous , then the Pope himselfe , or any Prelates that ever the world yet saw , I leave it to the saddest thoughts & deepest consideration of all such as truly love the Lord Iesus , and desire from their soule the glory of his Kingdome , and that hee may be our sole Monarch and eternall King , and may perpetually rule in his Church , and have all things done in his alone name , and according to his owne appointment ; to the judgement I say of all such cordiall subjects of Iesus ▪ Christ , and to their seriousest thoughts and censures I leave the consideration of this weighty busines : I am confident they will conclude their blasphemy was yet never paralleld by the very Pope himselfe , or by any of his shavelings , who were never yet so notoriously usurping and iniurious to Christ the King of his Church , as to send out their Mandates in their owne name , but all things issued out in in nomine domini , hence came up the Proverbe , when they heard of any thing from the Pope , that they usually said in nomine domini incipit omne malum , for he always pretended to do al in the name of Christ the King , for that stile notwithstanding did that man of sinne ever observe and keepe , continually ever setting forth his grolleries in nomine domini , whereas our Independent Brethren act all their baggatelly and trifling busines in the name of their severall churches , their officers ever saying , when they carry or bring any learned Messages one from an other , that they come in the name of the churches , and what they doe , they would have them know they doe it as officers in the name of the church ; Christs name the King of his church is never so much as heard amongst them in the transacting of their church affaires , so that wee may truely say , that whatsoever they pretend of setting up Christ as King upon his Throne , their practise sheweth the contrary ; for in the government of all their severall churches , they act all not in the name of Christ , but in the name of their several churches ; so that Christ the Kings name is not so much as mentioned amongst them ( as wee have learned not onely from their daily practise , but from I. S. and our American monstrous Divinity . To all that I have said for proofe that all the Independents by their doctrine disthrone Christ and set themselves in his place whiles they most of all pretend they set him up upon his Throne , I may for a corallary add their new traditions and practises which they impose upon all the Members of their severall new gathered churches as the commandments of God and as the practises of the Saints of old , and injoyne them and urge them as the statutes , ordinances and decrees of God ; yea I might here farther shew how they practice contrary unto Christ's the King and Lord of his Church commands : For whereas he sending out his Disciples and Apostles setting down the conditions upon which all men should be admitted into the Church , which were to repent and beleeve and to bebaptized in token of their beliese and repentance , which whosoever should accept of and imbrace , they should thereupon be received into Church fellowship ; the Illdefendents notwithstanding regard not Christs commands , but unto it add their own vain traditions , for the which they have neither precept nor president in all holy writ nor the practice of any well reformed church ; and they force men to conforme unto them , or else there can be no admission ; howsoever they offer themselvs to do as much as Christ their King commands them to do . And whereas Christ the King of his church layd the Government of it upon the shoulders of none but his Ministers , to whom he had given the Keyes ; the Il-dependents not onely dispense with this law at pleasure , but absolutely oppose it ; for contrary unto this law is their doctrine and practice who teach that the power and interest lies in the people , and that is their part , and that the Ministers are to exercise their authority and jurisdiction in the churches name , and so they spoile the Ministers of their power and invest the people with it , and give lawes unto the people of God , yea unto the Law●iver Christ himselfe ; whether all these dealings therefore of the Illdependents with many more paslages of the like nature that might be produced , if not worse , be not to disthrone Christ , when they slight his Laws and prefer their own traditions before the commandments of Christ the King of his church and revile and reproach his servants and officers offering all the indignity that can be committed against men to them all , I leave it to the judgement of the wise and godly . Again I refer it to the wisdome of any discerning spirit to consider and judge what difference there is between the Sectaries and the Pope and his conclave in this point , whenas they both assume all authority to themselves and take it from the Ministers , and make them but their executioners : Surely they will finde them both equally guilty and both Antichristian in rebelling in all things against Christ ; For Christ saith to all men that they that despise his Ministers despise him , and they that despise and slight Christ , in as much as in them lies they disthrone him , and therefore when all the Independents dayly practice all the malifices above mentioned , and that in a higher manner and strain , pretend they what they will of setting up Christ upon his Throne , they plainly disthrone him & dishonour him ; which may yet further appear if we consider some of their other passages ; for it is well known that some of the chiefe pillars in their houses and churches those Atlasses that some of them confide so much in for their strength and so much extoll for the preaching up of Christs Kingdome and for the setting of him up upon his Throne , I say some of these as it is well known have upon the Frontispices of their Pamphlets set this title Against Jesu Worship . Now although it be praise worthy in any in maintenance of Gods true worship and service to write against all Idolatricall or Superstitious worship of the true God or Jesus , yet it is a thing no way beseeming any Christian to write agaist God Worship and Iesu-Worship which are both commanded because that some faile and erre in the manner of the Worship of either God the Father or God the Sonne : Yea , it would have been thought in any Christian Nation an unsufferable thing to have tolerated the very reading or publishing of any books with such a title and inscription though the matter in them might have been good : for no man much lesse a Christian o●ght to write against Iesu-Worship no more then he ought to write against God-Worship , for Iesus also is God blessed for ever , the eternall Son of the eternall Father , who hath commanded all his Disciples Iohn 5. To worship the Son as they worship the Father ; Now then if it be an unsufferable thing to write against God-Worship , no lesse intolerable is it in any to write against Iesu-Worship , and all such as write such books and all such as allow of them and approve of them and their authors , let them pretend what they will of setting up Christ upon his Throne , all such as these are I say , make Christ a Pagent King and salute him with haile Master as the Jews did , to usurpe some of their own rhetorick and learned elequence , but indeed they disthrone him : For what is it to disthrone a King if writing of Warning Peeces , and Pamphlets against Kings ▪ service and Kings-honour be not ? And what I pray is it to disthrone a King ▪ if this be not to passe all acts of Government in the peoples name , and to send out all their warrants and mandates in the peoples name , and to command all their officers to manage all their imploiments in the peoples name , never so much as mentioning or taking notice of the King in a publique act of Government ? Are not all these actions and passages to any rationall creature a sufficient demonstration that the King in that Kingdome is either absolutely disthroned or is but a King to them in ludibry as Christ was to the wicked Jews ? I am confident that all understanding men will so conclude . Now when in all the new congregations those new gathered churches the Ildependents there have such amongst them that write books and that with their approbation against Iesu-Worship , that is , against the Worship of Iesus who is the eternall King of his Church , and when every day in all their particular churches they exercise all the acts of Government in the name of their churches , and not in Christs the Kings name , and that against the command of Christ and his Apostles ; I affirm and by the grace of God I hope ever to make it good , that all this is not onely a robbing Christ our Lord and King of his due honour , but a blasphemous and more then a Papall usurpation and derogating from his Kingly dignity and royalty , yea it is indeed a plain disthroning of Christ their King and thrusting him out of his place and putting themselves in it , which whether or no it be not the highest point of contumacy , rebellion and blasphemy , I leave to the judgment of others ; as for my self , I know not what either of these things be if they be not blasphemy ; for when I learned Divinity I was taught that blasphemy consisted in this , either to give unto God that that belonged not to him and to the excellency of his Majesty & divine nature , or to detract from him that that peculiarly belonged either to the essence , persons or glorious attributes of the diety , or to give the honour properly and peculiarly due to God the Father , Sonne , and Holy Ghost or to any person in the glorious Trinity , to any creature , or malitiously or wickedly to speak evill of God his essence , attributes , word , works , &c. or to do or act any thing obstinately and wilfully that is or may be derogatory to the dignity and honour of the Divine Majesty of God blessed for ever ; any of these things , when I studied Divinity , were thought blasphemy and worthy of severest punishments , and those that perpetrated any of those crimes were reputed unworthy to live , and proclamed blasphemers and men unsufferable : and yet there are many such kind of creatures in our new gathered Churches who are guilty of all that can be called blasphemy , and that rob Christ the Lord of his Worship and write against Iesu-worship , & blaspheme the holy Scriptures , and deny the diety of Christ and the blessed Trinity &c. and disthrone Christ in their new Congregations whiles they cry hail Master , exercising all acts of Government amongst themselvs in the name of the Church , never so much as mentioning the name of Christ the King ▪ and many more intolerable insolencies they dayly commit against the Soveraign Majesty of heaven and earth the Lord Jesus Christ our Lord and King ; and all these notwithstanding are counted Saints that commit these vices and malifices ; and great books are writ in defence of all these wicked blasphemous wretches , and both their errors and their persons are countenanced , and that by their great Rabbyes and Champions , all which notwithstanding are in Gods dialect and in his holy Word both old and new counted abominable creatures , and men unholy and displeasing unto God , and the acters and abetters and countenancers of all such blasphemies and wickednesses were thought equally guilty , and great and fearfull judgements were denounced against them all as it is apparently evident out of Gods holy Word , and yet these great evills are counted but the infirmities of the Saints amongst our Independent masters . Now then I say when the Illdefendents are guilty of all these crimes , as partly acting them , partly tolerating such as are both actors and abetters , or conniving at them and countenancing them , pretend they what they will of setting up Christ upon his Throne ▪ I hope to be ever able to make it good , that they all of them disthrone Christ & manifest to the world that as much as in them lies they would not have him raign over them , and so make themselves guilty of that crime they lay to the Presbyterians charg whom they dayly accuse to be enemies of Jesus Christ & his Kingdom and such as would not have Christ rule over them , when notwithstanding the Presbyterians do and ever will by Gods divine assistance set up Christ King upon his Throne , and shall ever desire that all honour and glory and praise may be given for ever and ever to the King eternall , immortall , invisible the only wise God the King of Saints and King of Kings , and that he may solely rule for ever , and that all his enemies and such as rob him of his honour and dignity may be made his footstoole , in the number of which the greatest part of the Sectaries are and all such as comply with them . And this shall suffice to have spoken concerning the first part of my undertaking against I. S. which was to set forth the wickednesse of the Independents and to shew how by their doctrine they rob Christ of his honour and Kingly dignity when they pretend they set him upon his Throne , which is an unsufferable blasphemy in them . And now I come to prove against I. S. that I undertook in the second place to make good : viz. that by their doctrine they not only rob Christ of his honour , but all Christs blessed Apostles , Ministers and Servants of their power , and leave them nothing but the name and shadow of authority ▪ which is a horrid injustice and wickednesse in the Sectaries and Independents to do ; which although I have briefly proved before , yet I shall here again for the more full elucidation of the truth and for the better setting forth of the Ill-dependent wickednesse a little further expatiate in this business and answer to all that I. S. hath materially or with any colour to speak in behalfe of his cause , where I presume he hath spake as much as he and his complices thought and conceived made for it and for which their vain and impious jangling they must one day give a dreadfull account . I undertake therefore now to prove that by this their doctrine , they not onely rob Christ the King of his Church of his honour and dignity , which I made good before , but all the holy Apostles and Presbyters his Ministers and Servants also of their honour , power and dignity , which the King of his Church the Lord Jesus had invested them with and bestowed upon them , all which will clearly appear if we shall again briefly consider and but take notice , First what power and authority God gave unto his Apostles and to his Ministers , which was the power of the Keyes Matth. 16. and Matth. 18. that is all power in his Church under him Matth. 28. and Mark 16. I say if we shall duly in the first place but consider that all the Apostles Christs speciall Ministers and Servants were by Christ himself invested with all authority and guided in their preaching and writing by his holy spirit , so that whatsoever they taught or writ as his Ministers , were the dictates of his spirit , and the commandments of God , and were for ever to be the rule of his Church to all succeeding ages to the end of the World ; and if we consider also what he promised to his blessed Apostles and all his Servants and Ministers that should succeed them : viz. that he would be with them to the end of the World ; to all which Ministers likewise he had given the keys and made them stewards and overseers of his house which is his Church ; I say if we but duly weigh all these things we shall finde them all invested with plenary authority , and by the very commission of God for ever inabled to exercise all acts of Government in the Church , and that by themselves without the assistance and concurrence of the people who were never joyned with them in commission , but received commands from heaven to obey those that God had made guides over them and made Rulers in his Church ; I say if we maturely consider all these immunities and priviledges and the power that the Apostles and Ministers of Christ were indued with and that from Christ the King of his church : And on the other side shall but consider what learned I. S. in the name of all the Independents his brethren declareth concerning not onely all the ordinary Ministers of the church , but what he delivereth concerning the blessed Apostles , we shall clearly perceive that herobbs them all of that honour , dignity and power which God hath given them , and invests the people with it , which is a double injustice ▪ First in taking from the Apostles and Ministers that which was their due and which God had bestowed upon them . And secondly , in giving unto the people , that which pertained not to them and to which they had no right nor could lay no claime and with which they were not to meddle . But take notice of his Doctrine , what hee holds and beleeves concerning the ordinary Ministers , page 12. In ordination ( saith hee ) election belongeth unto the brethren , Jmposition of hands is proper to the Officers , where there are Officers , as in a Church constituted and compleate , otherwise if the Church be not compleate , according to his learning the people may doe it . Thus I. S. speaks there , and in the 11 page hee grants it is the Presbyters part to rule . But as soone as hee hath spake the word , as if hee repented of what he had said , hee comes in with a but , saying , but wee distinguish betweene Authority and Iurisdiction on the one hand , and Power and Jnterest on the other : this latter belongs unto the people ; the other is proper unto the Officers , which yet they exercise in the name of the Church . The Officers ( saith hee ) ordaine , they excommunicate , they leade and direct in all government and disputes , they have the executive power , but the people have a power and interest too , that is , in his dialect as hee declared himselfe in the words going before , the Officers must exercise all their authority and jurisdiction in the name of the Church , and must doe as the people shall direct them , for their power is onely the executive power , they are onely the executioners of the church , they can neither elect any officers , nor excommunicate any without they have the leave and good liking from the people ; for the radicall and originall power lyes in the people and church , which if it be not utterly to overthrow the authority of the Ministers , and to make them nothing but cyphers in the Church , and most sacrilegiously to rob them of that power Christ the King of his Church hath given them , and to arrogate it , and assume it unto themselves , and whether this be not the greatest wickednesse and injustice in the Independents that can be committed against men , I leave it to the consideration and judgement of all conscientious and learned men : and whether such temerarious and bold impudent theives and Church-robbers ought not with greatest severity and justice to be proceeded against for this their malefice and unsufferable wickednesse , who doe not onely take from the Ministers of Iesus Christ , whom they ought ever to have in great reverence for their workes sake , 1 Thess . 5. that honour , power and authority Christ hath given them , but labour likewise now with all their might to take from them also that that God hath put into the hearts of men his servants to give them , viz. their tythes and lively-hood , and all that by which they should support themselves and their poore Families , which is as intolerable an in justice and ingratitude , both towards God and men , as can by mortall creatures bee committed , which wickednesse of the Independents and Sectaries , if the Magistrates shall suffer to goe unpunished , I most confidently beleeve , that the Lord and King of his Church , the Lord of heaven and earth will take the quarrell of his righteousservants into his hand , and will poure downe his plagues , both on them and all their complices and abettors . And now I have made it evident , how they rob all the ordinary Ministers and Presbyters of the Gospel of their due honour and power , I will make it likewise appeare that the Apostles also are by their doctrine in the same predicament , and that they deale no better with them whom they have robbed also and spoyled of their honour , power and authority , and count of them all no otherwise then of ordinary and common Ministers , and but as of a company of Executioners : for wee must take what I. S. speakes in this busines , to be uttered in the name of all the Independents ; for hee is but their mouth , and his booke came forth by the authority and approbation of them all , and was esteemed of as a goodly peece , and he highly honoured amongst them for it . His words are these , page 12. The Apostles and Elders ( saith he ) as a Committee , first prepared the dispute , as not counting it so safe perhaps to admit the weake to the same , whiles it was intricate , and then reported it , and had their assistance and concurrence ; and the Letters of resolution run in the name of the brethren ( 1 ) the Church as well as the Apostles and Elders : these are his words . And for confirmation of this his opinion , that the Apostles and Elders were but a Committee , and onely prepared the busines and then reported it , and could not without the assistance and concurrence of the brethren have ratified the Decrees made in that Councell , hee in the same page produceth his reasons for this his fond conceit , saying , that Paul and Barnabas were sent unto the Church and brethren as well as to the Apostles and Elders , for they were received of the Church ; withall ( saith hee ) the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with one accord , verse 25. imports a multitude met together ; and this to bee the result of that multitude , else it were no great commendation of the resolution that it was convened about and issued forth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and in verse 22. it is said , that it pleased ( not onely the Apostles and Elders ) but the whole church also : therefore the Church also came together to consult : or the Apostles and Elders as a Committee , first prepared the dispute , &c. Thus worshipfull I. S. sayes and un-sayes , determines and concludes , and then goes from his resolution againe , affirming that Paul and Barnabas were sent unto the Church also , and that the multitude was with one accord together , or else it had beene no great commendation of the resolution ; and he asserteth that the whole Church came together to consult ; and yet in the same breath as if hee had forgot himselfe , hee comes in with his perhaps as a man doubting and wavering in his opinion , and altogether in uncertainties , saying , that perhaps the Apostles did not count it safe to admit the weake to the dispute while it was intricate , so that here all men may see that hee makes it suspicious and doubtfull , whether the brethren , the multitude , the whole Church were present there or not , and that for a double reason , both in respect of the Apostles discretion and wisedome , as also in regard of the weaknesse of the Brethren , saying , that the Apostles and Elders were but as a Committee to prepare the dispute , and after reported it for the churches assistance and concurrence , and so hee learnedly concludes and determines by all this his babble that they were all there , and they were not there ; where can any man find this creature , and what man of understanding is hee that shall behold the levity , vanity , rashnesse and ignorance of this fellow , to say no more , that would not conclude that hee is a meere Catechumenos , and that one had need to instruct him instead of confuting him : for as much as it may seeme to any man unmeet that a man should be polemically exercised before hee be positively principled ; these are I. S. his wise expressions concerning mee in his 16. page , which whether or no they may not fitly be applyed to himselfe , I leave to the judgement of the wise and learned , who whiles hee will bee a Teacher of the Law , according to that of Saint Paul , 1 Tim. chap. 1. verse 7. understands not neither what he sayes , nor whereof he affirmes . I am most assured there scarce ever in the world appeared upon the Theater of learning a more unlearned payr of wicked triflers then this I. S. and Hanserdo Knollys . But it will not be amisse to consider the reasons of I. S. by which hee laboureth to prove that which hee himselfe had first positively set downe to be a truth ; to wit , that all the brethren , the multitude and the whole Church were together in the Synod ; and yet he after doubteth whether they were present there or no , I say it will not be amisse to consider the reasons , by which hee affirmes these two things ; the first , that all the whole Church were present in the Synod ; the second , that they all had their vote and concurrence , without which there had beene no great commendation of the resolution of the Councell as hee prattles , and without which the Decrees of the same had not beene ratified ; his first reason is this , because ( saith he ) Paul and Barnabas were received of the Church , Ergo , they were sent unto the Church as well as to the Apostles and Elders as if one should thus conclude , the Embassadours of France and Swede were sent unto the King and Parliament , and the Citie of London entertained them , Ergo , they were as well sent unto the Citie of London as to the King and Parliament ; againe , the Citie of London assented unto whatsoever the King and Parliament accorded unto to gratifie those Embassadours after they had made them acquainted with what they had done , Ergo , all the Citie and the whole multitude of Citizens had not onely their votes and concurrence in those great businesses , and were Iudges also in the Parliament , but they were altogether in the great Councell , and that the Parliament could have ratified nothing without them ; would not all men that should heare any man thus argue , gather that that man that should make such inferences from such premises , and should so conclude , that hee were crased in his braine , or else a very Ninny , and void of all reason ? And yet this is the manner of I. S. and Hanserdoes disputing , and which is more to shew the vanity of this man , he understands by the brethren , the multitude , and the whole Church , agreeing and according with Hanserdo in this sottish opinion , who holds that by brethren , the multitude , and the whole Church , all the beleevers in Jerusalem both men , women and children are to be understood , and that they all had their Votes in that counsell and ratified the Decrees , without the which they had not been valid , whereas it is most certain , as I shewed before in my Answer to Hanserdo , that there was not only an impossibility that such multitudes of beleevers as were in Ierusalem should all meet in any one place , but that by multitude there and the whole Church must necessarily be understood some choice and select men such as Iudas and Sylas were , who are called Prophets and Ministers of the Gospell , of which the Church of Ierusalem was furnished with good store , and of which that great councell onely consisted , and who debated and argued con and pro about the businesse in controversie , which is manifest from the seventh verse , where it is said , when there had been much disputing , Peter rose up &c. and in the 12. verse for farther confirmation of this truth , it is related that then all the multitude kept silence and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul &c. And that Iames after they had held their peace gave in his judgement , to which the whole multitude and Church assented : so that out of all these words it necessarily and undeniably followeth that by the brethren there , the multitude and the whole Church are to be vnderstood , not the common people , men and women in the Church of Ierusalem ; For it is said they were brethren and therefore all the sisters were excluded , who were not at any time permitted to vote in churches 1 Cor. 14. And therefore the whole multitude of beleevers were not there , for women were part of the multitude ; neither were the weak brethren to be admitted to doubtfull Disputations by a speciall command from the Apostle Paul Rom. 14. v. 1. and this is accorded to by the wise I. S. that confident disputant , who saith that the Apostles and Elders as a Committee first prepared the dispute and after reported it , not counting it safe to admit the weak to the same , whiles it was intricate , so that from Saint Pauls Doctrine there were neither women nor weak brethen there , and from I. S. his own concession , the weak were not admitted all the time of the dispute : and therefore the whole multitude of beleevers that were in Ierusalem were not in the Councell , by all which it is apparently evident , That by brethren , and church , and multitude there , the whole company of Beleevers in Ierusalem cannot be understood , and therefore by Brethren , Multitude , and the whole Church , we are necessarily to understand the learned and godly Prophets , Ministers and Members of that church chiefe and eminent ones such as Judas and Sylas were , and with them are to be joyned the other Presbyters that came out of all the Churches of Iudea , with those that came with Paul and Barnabas from Antioch , which being all confidered together , made up a great number and multitude , all the which are called the Church , v. 3. the Scripture there speaking Synecdochically , and taking a part for the whole , I say , of all such as these are did that Synod consist , and not of all sorts of believers which were not members fit for a Synod and Councell , which was to be managed and ordered and consist of such men only as had received the Keys , and upon whom the government of the Church was laid , which was never committed to the people , much lesse to women ; & therfore I say in all these respects , by the Brethren and Multitude , and the whole Church , we are to understand it Synecdochically as before , for all those that were in the councell which were but a part of the whole , for the eminent Ministers and Prophets that were Commissioners there , and assistants to the Apostles and Eld●rs , he which yet is more eviden● from this reason , That they onely could bee Iudges and Voters in that Synod , which had heard the whole debate and the full dispute on both sides ; for none can be Iudges in any cause to give righteous judgement , that have not fully heard the allegations and probations on both sides , which I. S. acknowledgeth , the weak neither heard , nor could judge of , because they were intricate ; ergo , they could not be Iudges , nor give their voices there upon no terms : for they could not be Judges of things they had not fully & understandingly heard ; now the weake neither heard , neither could they have understood if they had heard ( both which I. S. accordeth to ) and therefore by multitude and the whole Church the weak brethren cannot be meant , much lesse the sisters : and if men would but with deliberation weigh and consider of things as they ought to be pondered and considered of , very reason without the warrant of holy Scripture would perswade every rational and wel grounded christian that none could or can be Iudges in any cause but such as have heard the pleading of the whole busines , and controversie from the beginning to the ending , which none but the apostles & presbyters , and the Commissioners , and such as Sylas and Iudas and Barnabas were , did ; for the Scripture saith verse 6. that the Apostles and Elders came together for to consider of this matter ; and when there had beene much disputing , &c. out of which words wee may gather , that none but they that managed the disputation , and heard the whole debate , were or could be Iudges , which all the people neither did , nor possibly could doe ; neither may we conceive of the Councell of Ierusalem that they had any raw headed boyes , or giddy braind creatures , or Minors in it , or any such as were ever running out and in ; for wee may not imagine , that that great Councell was like a pigion house , where they are continually fluttering out , and fluttering in ; for that Councell consisted of such men onely as were holy , grave and approved ; all Prophets , such as Sylas , Iudas and Barnabas were , such as for gravity and experience , were thought fit companions to sit with the Apostles and Elders in consultation ; so that it is apparently evident , that Councell consisted of none but venerable , pretious , godly and staid men , of whom wee can not by the Law of charity thinke that they did the worke of the Lord in that Synod negligently , or to the halves , or that they did not all sit close , and diligently to the worke from the beginning of the Session to the conclusion of the same , and therefore that as they met altogether at a set houre or time , so that they continued and kept together in consultation and dispute as long as any other sate , and till they in their wisedome by their joynt consents and agreements thought fit to sit to the full determination of the whole busines , and till the Decrees were made , were it fewer or more dayes or weekes , and although it be not recorded how long the Councell continued , yet wee reade no where in the 15. chapter , but that they sate altogether in judgement , the Apostles and Elders , and Commissioners , till they had heard the whole debate and di●pute , and none but they : This truth may be gathered , not only from the holy Scripture , and from that I have formerly spake , but from I. S. his owne words above specified , viz , that there were neither weake brethren , nor the sisters ; and therefore it is a great wickednesse in I. S. from such uncertainties as hee goes upon , to raise and make such conclusions as he doth , which tend to no other end , but for the taking away all the authority and power from the Apostles themselves , which God notwithstanding had invested them with , and to put it into the hands of the people , which they had nothing to doe with ; for as his words declare , hee accounteth the Apostles and Elders but a Committee onely , to prepare the dispute , and then to report it , that they might have the assistance and concurrence of the people , without the which ( as hee affirmeth ) there were no great commendation of the resolution , that is to say , if the people had not assented unto the Decrees , they had beene of no effect , which if it be not wholly to devest the Apostles of all power and authority , and lay it and place it upon the people , I leave it to the judgement of the learned , then the which there cannot be a greater sacriledge , and injustice perpetrated against Ministers and servants of God in the world by any ; and as this dealing and proceeding of I. S. is most injurious to the Apostles , so this his doctrine is contrary to all divine and humane learning ; yea , contrary to the very opinion of the learnedst of the Independents : for this I. S. his judgement is , that the Apostles and Presbyters without the concurrence of the people and Church , could not have made the Decrees valid and binding , whereas all the Independents ( besides himselfe ) joyning with the Papists against the Protestants , affirme , that the Apostles onely in that Synod and Councell , by their infallible authority ratified those Decrees ; and so they exclude all the Presbyters , saying , that the Apostles acted not as Presbyters in that Councell , but as Apostles stles with a transcendent power , and were onely the men who were led and guided in that Session by the Holy Ghost , and by a spirit of infallibility ( which say they ) the Presbyters were not indued with ; and therefore their presence onely as Apostles made their Decrees binding , which opinion of the Independents howsoever it is very erroneous , as I have often shewed in the foregoing Discourse ; yet it is point blanke against the Doctrine of I. S. who places all the power in the people , robbing both the Apostles and Presbyters of their authority ; and on the other side his brethren , they place all authority upon the Apostles , and deprive the Presbyters of it , and count them but ordinary men , and not infallibly there assisted by the Holy Ghost ; both which opinions as they are contrary unto the word of God , so they sufficiently prove that these men are but Babel Builders , whose tongues and language are divided , and tend to confusion ; for they are diametrically fighting one against ano ther ; so that all the world may see that those men that begin once to fight against the truth , like the Midianit●s they destroy one an other . But this has generally beene observed , that such men as these are , that study to invent Engines to beate downe the truth , yet all the vapours of their braine cannot so much as cloud so bright ● Sunne , but it will evermore gloriously shine forth to the dazeling of the eyes of all the enemies of the same : So that it is a wonder of wonders to mee to see the people generally so hardned by obstinacy , that they cannot yet discerne into the craft and juggling of the Ill-defendents predicants , who whiles they give the people or Church power and interest , to humour them ( it is not so much out of love to them , as hatred to the Presbyterians ) to build up their Diana Temple of Independency , hoping by raysing it to ruine the truth it selfe , and to overthrow the whole Fabricke of Presbyterian government , which Christ the King of his Church hath appointed , and in fine by this meanes to bring in a confusion of all things , and a m●●re Anarchy in Church and State. But howsoever the Ill-defendents seeke to put out the light of the truth by this their snuffing at it , they make it burne the brighter , as I. S. and Hanserdo Knollys have done by their snuffing at it . And this shall suffice by way of Answer to have replyed to what both these Gentlemen Master Hanserdo and I. S. had to say to my third Proposition ▪ I come now to my fourth , which I will first set down with their Answers to it , and then make my reply as I have done to all their former cavills ; and I will go on in the same order , first answering to Hanserdo and then to I. S. My fourth Proposition is this , viz. That the Church of Jerusalem and the government of the same , is to be a pattern for all Congregations and Assemblies in any City or Vicinity , to unite into one Church ; and for the Officers and Presbyters of those congregations to govern that Church joyntly , in a Colledge or Presbytery . And for the proofe of this there needs no great dispute ; for all men acknowledge that the mother Church must give an example of government to all the daughter Churches ; now then when it doth evidently appear , that this mother Church of Jerusalem , in her most flourishing condition , and by her first constitution , was consisting of many Congregations and severall Assemblies , and that they were all governed by a Presbytery , or a joynt and common Councell of Presbyters : then it followeth , that all other Churches should be governed after the same manner as the mother Church was , to the end of the World ; neither doe the brethren deny , but the government of the church of Jerusalem , must be the patterne of government to all churches ; and therefore out of that misprision and mistake , that she was consisting of but as many as could meet in one congregation , they take the church of Ierusalem , for imitation , and teach all their severall congregations to do the same , and to exercise the same power among themselves Independent , and to govern with as absolute an authority in their severall Congregations , as the whole Colledge of the Apostles and Presbyters did in the church of Ierusalem , and from the which they allow of no appeale , as all that know their tenents can witnesse : So that this last Proposition being strengthned both by reason and the consent of the brethren , needs no further proof . Now to this my fourth Proposition and the Arguments contained in the same , Master Knollys thus replyeth Page 14. Neither do the Brethren deny , but the Government of the Church of Ierusalem must be the pattern of Government to all Churches . But the Doctor knows , that the brethren deny that the Church of Ierusalem consisted of divers Congregations and severall Assemblies under a common Councell , Consistory , Colledge , or Court of Presbyters . And this they have not granted , neither hath the Doctor proved . And this may be sufficient to be said in Answer to the four Propositions touching the first Question . This is all Mr Knollys hath to say by way of Answer to this my last Proposition ; in the which Answer of his , I desire the Reader to observe what he in the name of all the brethren granteth and assenteth unto , and what both he and they all deny ( at least as he saith ) ; for he personateth them all . He grants in behalfe of them all , that the Church of Ierusalem must be the pattern of Government to all churches : And this is as much as I desire . But by the way take notice that Master Hanserdo reckons before his host ; for I. S. is one of the brethren , and yet he Page 13. asserteth that the example of that Church is not bindingly presidentiall . Now what he and all the brethren deny , if Mr Knollys be worthy of credit , are these two things , viz. The first , That the Church of Ierusalem consisted of divers congregations . Secondly , they deny that the Doctor hath proved it . That all the brethren deny ( as Mr Knollys saith ) that the church of Ierusalem consisted of many congregations , is not altogether to be believed : For my brother Burton , none of tne meanest of the Brethren , doth not deny it : yea he not onely grants it , but by arguments proves that there were many Assemblies of Believers in the church of Ierusalem : and therefore Mr Hanserdo in this also his assertion reckons before his host . But whereas in the second place he saith that the brethren deny that I have proved there were many congregations of Believers in Ierusalem , he being better acquainted with their denyalls then I am , may speak according to his information , and so is not so blame worthy as in the former of his conclusions ; but if it were any thing materiall , or to the purpose , I could name some of the Brethren of the congregationall way , that told me discoursing with them , that by reading of my book they were convinced that there were many Assemblies of beleevers in Ierusalem : and therefore to my knowledge all the Brethren do not deny that I have proved it : But whether or no I have not abundantly evinced there were many Assemblies of Beleevers in Ierusalem , and that not onely out of the holy Scripture , but from my brother Burtons and Hanserdoes own words , I leave it to the judgement of all such men as have any understanding and without prejudice shall read the foregoing discourse course , whither I send them , intreating them likewise with diligence to peruse it : and then I doubt not , but whatsoever they have beleeved concerning that businesse , or whatsoever they have formerly denyed , they will be convinced that I have sufficiently proved both from Scripture and from my brother Burton and Saint Hanserdoes own concessions that there were many Congregations of Beleevers in the Church at Ierusalem , and withall I am most assured they will also for time to come take heed how they beleeve Mr Knollys and those of his fraternity upon their bare words without other sufficient and approved witnesses . And this shall suffice for Answer to Master Knollys . Now I desire the Reader to hear what learned I. S. hath to say ; He in the 13. Page answers thus : First , saith he , They are not ( meaning the Congregations and severall Assemblies ) an example of uniting or aggregation , except it be found that there were many Churches aggregated , which a very facile and swasible Reader may well doubt of , for any thing that hath yet been said to make it good . For Answer to I. S. I say that he that is but a very facile and swasible reader , that will vouchsafe to peruse and consider but what I have wr●t in way of Answer both to himselfe , Hanserdo Knollys and my learned brother Burton , will never doubt but that I have sufficiently made it good that there were many Assemblies and Churches aggregated in Ierusalem : and therefore I shall send all such as are studious to finde out the truth , and to shun error and to decline all trivall and fond seducers , to what I have written in the foregoing Treatise . And this shall serve for Answer to his first Reply . Secondly , saith he , If this were granted that many Churches did aggregate and unite in the beginning , yet would not this example be bindingly Presidentiall , &c. Here I shall desire the Reader to take notice of the vanity of this Novice , and worthlesse man who is so farr from all learning and knowledge , as he is not acquainted with the very principles of any sound reason or with the Independents doctrine ; for he hath the whole Army of the Independents against him in this point as well as the Presbyterians , who all acknowledge that the church of Ierusalem is for its Government to be the patterne of Government to all churches to the end of the World ; and that hath been all the controversie between the Presbyterians and the Illdependents , whether that Church consisted of many Congregations and Assemblies , which if it could be proved they profest that then the cause was lost and the day was the Presbyterians ; for they all acknowledge that the Church of Ierusalem must be a pattern of all Churches ; and this Master Knollys in the name of all the brethren assented unto in the foregoing words , so that these brethren are not so well acquainted with one anothers minde and principles as they perswade others they are . Now profound I. S. denyeth that were it so that the Church of Ierusalem consisted of many Assemblies , yet for all this that it could not be bindingly Presidentiall , these are his words by the which he beats up all the Independents Quarters , to use his own rhetorick , and utterly overthroweth that cause he as a Champion came out to maintain . Neither hath he onely beat up the Independents Quarters , but indeed all the Apostles Quarters : For that Government they established in Ierusalem and in all the other Primitive Churches , was left for a patterne of imitation to all Churches in all succeeding Ages , as not onely the Independents but all orthodox Divines doe accord , yea the Scripture it selfe hath commanded it , Isaih 2. saying , out of Zion shall come the Law , and the word of the Lord from Ierusalem : Ierusalem therefore must be a paterne , both for doctrine and government , and this al the Independents themselves acknowledge , and the Scripture in many places saith , whatsoever was written was written for our instruction ; therefore the government of all the Primitive Churches , especially that of Ierusalem , and the example of all the Apostles , are left for our imitation , Phil. 3. Now when the Apostles constituted all churches after one way , and aggregated many Churches or Congregations all under one Presbyterie , in each of them severally , as in that at Ierusalem , that Church principally , and all the rest are left for a paterne of imitation of Church government to the end of the world , and this is confirmed by the Holy word of God , and assented unto by all the Learned , from all which when J. S. most rashly and wickedly dissenteth , I leave him to the censure of the seven new Churches , who I hope will whip him out of their Assemblies , with his foolish Flagello flagelli , for thus sottishly beating up of all their quarters , and renouncing all the Independents Principles , whiles hee laboured to maintaine them ; and this shall suffice for answer to I. S. his grolleries to the former Propositions concerning the first Question . Now before I come to my second question , concerning the gathering of Churches , I will say thus much by way of Preface concerning Hanserdo , I. S. and my brother Burton , that as they are very confused in their replyes , jumbling things together , that are heterogenious , leaping backward and forwards , picking and choosing , snatching and carping , yea , and trifling about words , as the custome of all the Ill ▪ defendents is , so they deale not fairly with mee , nor ingenuously , nor Saint-like with the people , whom they desire to delude , and therefore they passe over the most materiall Arguments , never so much as making mention of them , and slighting all as not worthy the answering to , and by such arts as these are , they most prodigiously abuse the well minded people , and by these their unchristian , unbrotherly , and wicked dealings , they every day broach their errors with more facility , and abuse all their ignorant and credulous followers , to the utter destroying of many of their poore soules , some of the which as I am able to prove , were men esteemed of to be godly , as walking unblameably , being also diligent hearers of the word before they knew them , yet after their acquaintance with them , being first by their meanes seduced from our Churches , after some time they fell from their congregations also , into wicked and desperate opinions , and in a short time after , became so prophane and beastly ; yea , so atheisticall , as it would exceed ordinary beliefe to relate , and truly if I had not very good witnesse to prove what I say , besides my owne knowledge and experience , I would not have mentioned it ; but because if occasion serves I shall be able to produce many Presidents of fearefull Apostasies , even amongst those that were their Schollers , and the Disciples of the Independent way , I am the willinger to speake of it , that I might arme all men with some caution in reading their Pamphlets , which they write against the Presbyterians ; for they never deale candidly , neither with them , nor with their own brethren : for first they either wholly disswade them from reading our bookes , or else by their emissaries , and rayling Libels they most shamefully vilifie and belye them so , that they come prejudicated to them , and then they send their owne putrid and corrupt scriblings amongst those of their Fraternity , whom they miserably cozen and abuse with their fraudulent jugglings , and that against all the Lawes of piety and common honesty , to the disturbance , both of Church and State. This I thought fit ( I say ) to speake before I come to my second question and severall Queries arising from it , concerning the gathering of Churches , and their answers unto them , wherein they rather trifle then dispute , as will by and by appeare ; I shall therefore in my replying unto them , first set downe the question fully with all my queries , and then answer to all the materials of their fond cavils and evasions , with their silly responsals to them , and after I have done that , I will set downe Gods method , and the Apostles practise in the gathering of Churches , with the manner of their admitting of Members , and then reply to whatsoever they have to say against my Arguments and Reasons deduced from holy Scripture ; and for further confirmation of the truth , I will adde many more Presidents , and them undeniable ones of the Apostles receiving of Members , and that into Churches formed after the New-Testament forme , according to their owne description ; besides , those that were received into the Catholike visible Church , and all without any of those conditions they now require of their Members , and I shall by Gods assistance evidently make it appeare , that God by his holy Apostles and Ministers uses but one way of admitting of members into the church , whether it be the catholike visible church , or any particular presbyterian church , whether they be admitted in an ordinary or an extraordinary way , I say by thegrace of God I shal clearly elucidate this truth , that God useth one and the same method in gathering his people out of all nations into Church fellowship , and the communion of the Saints , which ought to all Ministers to be a rule to walke by in the receiving in of Members into their Congregations . Having thus set downe what order I will proceed in , I come now to the second question betweene us and the Brethren , which is , concerning the manner of gathering of Churches and admitting of Members and Officers , viz. Whether Ministers of the Gospel may out of already congregated Assemblies of ` Beleevers , select and choose the most principall of them , into a Church-fellowship peculiar unto themselves , and admit of none into their society , but such as shall enter in by a private covenant , and are allowed of by the consent and approbation of all the Congregation . And this question brancheth it selfe into these severall Queries : The first , whether for the gathering of Churches there bee either Precept or President in the Holy Word of God , that the Preachers and Ministers of the Gospel did ever leave their owne ordinary charges , to which they are called , and whereto they are fixed , with a command not to leave them , and under pretence of a new way , or a new borne truth , or a new light , did runne about and alienate the minds of the people , well affected formerly to their severall Ministers , as of duty they were bound , as who had converted them to Christ by their Ministery , and fed them still with the sincere milke of the Word , and built them up in their most holy Faith : I say , the first Quere is , whether there be precept or example in the Word of God of any true Ministers so doing ? and whether it was ever heard of in the Apostles and Primitive times , that any beleeving Christians were in great numbers congregated from among other beleeving Christians , and moulded into severall Congregations and Assemblies , as separate and distinct bodies and Churches from them , and who had no Church-fellowship with the other Congregations , nor communicated with them in the Ordinances , but were independent from them , and absolute among themselves ? and whether this way of gathering of Churches was ever heard of before these dayes ? and whether this be to set Christ upon his Throne , to make divisions and schismes in Churches , and among Beleevers and brethren , and that upon groundlesse pretences . The second Quere is , whether for the making of any man or woman a Member of the Church , it be requisite or necessary , to the beleeving and being baptized , that they should walke some dayes , weeks , moneths , perhaps yeares with them , that they may have experience of their conversation before they can be admitted , and after that , a confession of their faith should be publikely made before the Congregation , and the evidences of their conversion , as , the time when , the place where , the occasion how they were converted , should likewise openly be produced for satisfaction to the Church before they can be admitted to be Members , and if any , either men or women shall except against their evidence , that then they are not to be admitted ; this is the second Quere . The third is , whether for making any man or woman a Member , or an Officer of a Church , the consent of the whole Congregation or the greater part of them besides the Presbyters and Ministers be requisite ? The fourth Quere is , whether for the admission of any one into Church-fellowship and Communion , a private solemne Covenant be requisite or necessary for the making of any one a Member , the neglect or refusall of the which , makes them incapable of their Member-ship and admission ? There is no question betweene us and the brethren , about a publike covenant , for we have Presidents of that in holy Scripture , in all publike reformations . The fifth Quere is , whether the women and people , as well as the Presbyters and Ministers have the power of the Keyes , and whether the women have all their voices in the Church , both for election and reprobation of Members and officers , as well as the men , and whether the consent of all the women , or the greatest part of them , bee requisite for the making of any one a Member or Officer , so that if they gain ▪ say it , being the greater number , or allow of it , the most voices carry the busines ? this is the fifth Querie , the practise of the which , as of all the former , the brethren in some of their Congregations hold for orthodox , and thinke all these things required of any that offer themselves to be a Member . The last Quere is , whether the practice and preaching of all these things , and the gathering of Churches after this manner , be to set up Christ as King upon his Throne ? and whether Churches and Assemblies thus congregated be the onely true Churches , and in the which onely Christ rules aud reignes as King , and all other that are not moulded up after this fashion , bee no true congregated Churches , and in the which Christ is not set up as King upon his Throne , which is the opinion of the brethren , as wil afterward appear . If I have failed in any thing in stating the question , or in any of these Quaeries , the brethren must pardon me ; for I speak according to the practice of some of their Congregations , and according to the doctrine many of them teach , not onely in their owne Assemblies , but in every Pulpit through the Kingdome where they come , as I shall be able to prove : And therefore if I have been mistaken in any thing , they may blame their own practice and teachers , and thank themselves also , that in the space of almost three yeares ( though it has been again and again desired at their hands ) they have not so much as set down the modell of their government , and what they would have , with all the appertainances belonging unto it , that all the world might be out of doubt . What therefore I find practised amongst some of the most zealous of them , and the most approved for integrity , and what I shall be able to prove , that I have without any spirit of bitternesse specified . And now according to my method propounded I will set down their Answers to what all of them have to say to the severall branches and parcells of the insuing discourse concerning the gathering of Churches ; onely in this I shall refer every cavill they make against my severall quaeries and arguments to their right place ; whereas I said before , they had in a confused and disorderly way by snatches answered to what they thought themselves best able to deal with , eitherwholy passing by the main arguments with silence , or slighting of them with contempt , wherein I shall in their due places discover their dishonest dealing . But before I come to my answer , I shall desire the Reader to hear , first what Mr Knollys and I. S. say concerning me about this second question . Hanserdoes words are these Page 14. And this question ( saith he ) the Doctor brancheth into six Quaries , wherein the judicious Reader may perceive the Doctor ( through mis-information I conceive ) hath mistaken the stating of the question , which he partly acknowledgeth . Thus Mr Knollys speaks . I. S. his words are these Page 15 , 16. The second question , saith he , is of the manner of gathering of Churches and of admitting of Members and Officers proposed by him : 1. in the Chaos it seemes . 2. orderly , ( as he supposes ) drawn forth into six Quaeries , though I dare not say there is not interfering , tautologie and great confusion . The nature in which the things are : viz. of Quarie , incourages me rather to do some thing in them , for that I hope the Doctor will not be great of his own sense , but take an Answer of these things from those that know the way better then himselfe , who it seems is but a Catechumenos therein . I shall here therefore indeavour to instruct him instead of refuting him , for as much as to me it seems unmeet , that a man should be polemically exercised before he be positively principled . Thus speakes learned I. S. For my brother Burtons good opinion of me and his kind expressions of his love towards me I shall in their places record them with my due thanks to him for the same . But whereas Master Knollys accuseth me of ignorance in the stating of the question , and saith that I have partly acknowledged it , and conceives that this mistake in me arose from a mis-information : In all he saith he playes the vain man ; for I am able to prove from their dayly practice all that I there set down , and know the question as well as any Independent living , and can at any time make it appear that Master Knollys knows not the Independents principles . And so far as their New Lights have illuminated the world , so far I know of their wayes ; and that I acknowledged and no other thing : But why did not Mr Knollys in this place , if I were mistaken , honestly shew me my error ? And why did he not as beseemed a Christian and a man truly fearing God , now set down fully and plainly what their Way is that all men may know where to finde them ? These ungodly men are not so honest as to set down their way , and yet they pretend others are ignorant of it : when notwithstanding they know it better then themselves . In the same steps of Hanserdo doth I. S tread in accusing me of interfering , tautologies and great confusion , and that I am great in mine own sense , and that I am but a Cateshumenos , and that he knows the way better then my selfe , and that he will endeavour to instruct me instead of refuting me , for as much as to him it seems unmeet that a man should be polemically exercised before he be positively principled . Thus this wretched man tramples upon me for my ignorance , and vapours at no allowance of his own knowledge , and yet keeps not his promise with me , to instruct mee , or to shew me my error , wherein he proclames himselfe to be a very unworthy creature , that I say no more : for it had been his duty to have ingenuously here shewn unto me my failings if I were in ignorance , and to have truly and uprightly set down what their Way is ( seeing he affirmeth he knoweth it so well ) that all men might at last be undeceived if in error . This I say had been the part of a sincere Christian and one truly fearing God , in the number of the which I cannot think or beleeve I. S. to be so long as he fondly boasteth of himselfe and keepeth not his promise : and it is most apparently evident to all that have read his wicked Pamphlet that he is in the gall of bitternesse and band of iniquity where they find nothing but brutish impiety and apparent ignorance : For he himselfe , though a great teacher , knoweth not neither what he saith nor whereof he affirmeth ; who is as apparently nescient as Hanserdo of the Independents Doctrine , and had need himselfe to be positively principled before he be polemically exercised . But whereas J. S. accuses me to be a Catechumenos in their principles . I will undertake this upon my life before the whole Kingdome to make it good , that I know the Independent way as well as any Independent in England ; and I farther undertake if the great Councel of the Kingdome shall call me and all the dissenting Brethren before them , that I shall be better able in halfe a dayes space to deliver in , what modell they would set up ( if they will deal ingenuously before God and the world and speak their conscience ) then they all put together shall be able to do ; I may perhaps be thought something presumptuous ; But J. S. his fond expressions makes me speak that I do , which notwithstanding I still undertake to make good . And if I have not been mis-informed , there was one of the congregationall way , and none of the meanest of them , hearing my brother Burton speaking very trivially of me , after he was gone out of his presence and passing a long with a friend of his and of the same fraternity , much blamed my brother Burton , saying , that he had heard him speak as hyperbolically of me both for my learning and honesty as ever he heard man speak of another , and added moreover , that though I differed from them in opinion , yet he conceived that I was the same man still in all respects that I was when my brother Burton spake so well of me , and said withall that he did verily beleeve , whatsoever Master Burton spake in a vilifying manner of me , that I was better acquainted with their Way then he himselfe . And there will be no great difficulty if occasion serve to prove all that I now say . And therefore J. S. playes the child to babble thus to me , who by Gods assistance and the power of his might shall be able to confound ten thousand such as he is , and to teach both him and all his complices whether assembled or not assembled , that their tenents are most wicked and abominable . And I hope that succeeding ages will say that God inabled me to be as good as my undertaking , for in his might I shall ever come out against all the Independents and Sectaries . And now I come to answer to all their Replies to my Quaeries . And first whereas they babble about the generall stating of the question and divide those things that I had joyned together and made but one generall question of , they shew themselves but triflers and not serious Christians . For I never made any ; doubt but that the Ministers of the Gospell may gather Churches for God in all ages sent his Prophets and Ministers for this very end to gather in the lost sheep of the house of Israel and all such as belong unto his election into his house ; for I know that the ordinary way to bring men to the knowledge of God and of Christ , wherein consists life eternall , is by the ministerie of the Gospel , this I say is the ordinary meanes God uses for the perfecting of the Saints , and for the edifying of the body of Christ , and this I have learned from the holy Scripture , Ephes . 4. 11 , 12 , 13. & 1 Cor. 12. 28. And therefore all the pudder that I. S. and my Brother Burton make with their grollish Interrogations about that busines is but to beate the ayre , and nothing to the purpose , and no answer to my Quere , as the Reader may well perceive , if hee lookes but backe to the question and first quere , neither can my Brother Burton or I. S. make it good by any one example out of the holy word of God , that the ordinary Ministers of the Gospel , did ever leave their owne ordinary charges , to which they are called , and whereto they are fixed , with a command not to leave them , and that under a pretence of a new way , or new light did run about to gather converted men , from among converted men , and so picke out of other mens folds and flocks the best and fattest sheepe , and molded them into severall Congregations and Assemblies , as separate and distinct bodies and Churches from them , and who had no Church-fellowship with other Congregations , but were independent from them , and absolute amongst themselves : I say and affirme , that neither my Brother Burton , nor I. S. nor any predicant of the congregationall way can shew me any one President of this kind , either in the Old or New Testament ; and this was the question , whether there were any such thing to be found in the Scripture ; and not whether the Ministers of the Gospel may gather Churches , as both J. S. and my Brother Burton deceitfully make it . Now whereas in the 12. page hee compareth our Churches and Congregations with the Popish Assemblies , and saith , that they professe themselves to be Christians as well as the Protestants , and that their gathering of people out of our Ministers flocks is as tolerable as gathering them out of Popish Parishes and Assemblies ; for this is the drift of his reason ; hee dealeth most uncharitably , and unchristianly with his brethren ; for hee himselfe in his booke called Babell no Bethell , hath there by the helpe of learned Calvin and Chemnicius , and other Orthodox Writers , proved that the Church of Rome is both Idolatricall and hereticall , and errs in the foundation , and that all the Papists living and dying in that their Faith and beleefe , are in the state of damnation . So that they being considered in his notion , are as Infidels and aliens from the common wealth of Israel ; and the gathering of churches out from amongst the Papists is to open their eyes and to turn them from darknesse to light & from the power of Satan to God , and as bringing men out of heathenish idolatry or from Jewish obstinacy , from the companies and congregations of the which all Christians have an injunction to come out , they being commanded to come out of Babylon . Now I say in that my brother Burton compares all the Christian brethren in our congregations to the idolatrous Papists , he sheweth the uncharitable opinion he hath of us all , so that now it is no wonder that upon all occasions he proclames us all the enemies of Jesus Christ and his Kingdome . But blessed be God , We beleeve that through the grace of our Lord Iesus Christ we shall be saved as well as any Independents think they shall be saved Act. 15. v. 11. Seeing God hath put no difference between us & them purifying our hearts by Faith. And therefore he deals very unchristianly & unbrotherly with us to compare us to the Papists , especially when according to our Covenant our Parishes and Churches are purged both of the Service Book & Hierarchy and all Popish Superstition , as he himself acknowledgeth in the 13. page of his uncharitable Pamphles : and therefore this his instance of gathering Churches out of our congregations who beleeve in God as well as they ▪ answers not to the question . And for his other instance in the 13. Page , Where he asks me if I know not that the ancient Church of the Jews was then a Church when the Apostles by their preaching gathered a Church out of it ? a Christian Church out of the Iewish Synagogues ? For Answer , I say first , that I well see ( and that without spectacles ) that by these stones he hurls at all his brethren , and casts up dust yea dirt thus in their faces ( to usurp his own expression ) pa. 13. that he shews his want of love and charity to us , comparing our congregations and Churches at every turn to the Popish and Jewish Synagogues , and esteeming of the gathering out of people from amongst us , to be the same with gathering men and women from out of their Idolatricall and Jewish Assemblies : for why otherwise if this be not his meaning , doth he bring his instances from both the Papists and the Jews at every turn ? and therefore for his so dealing , in the first place I answer , that he is very injurious to his Brethren and must seriously repent for this uncharitable dealing . But secondly , I answer that my brother Burton is much mistaken : for the Apostles did not gather Christian Churches out of the Jewish Synagogues , as we may see in the second of Iames and through the whole story of the Acts , where we finde that the Apostles in all their peregrinations ever frequented the Synagogues and preached unto them there , and our Saviour himselfe notwithstanding all the scandalls in that Church and all their traditions , preached daily in the Temple and in their Synagogues , as the Scripture relates ; yea and the Apostles themselves after Christs resurrection preached dayly in the Temple and in all Synagogues whersoever they journyed ; yea Christ himselfe commanded all his followers , the whole multitude with his own Disciples and Apostles to hear the Pharisees Matth. 23. ver . 1 , 2. And without doubt they did obey their Master and made no separation from the Synagogues and S Paul in the 10. to the Hebrews , blameth those that did leave the assembling of themselves together : therefore he did not allow of a separation from the Synagogues and from Christian Assemblies and moulding themselves into separate Congregations , under a pretence of a more refined holinesse and pure partaking in the ordinances , which is the pretence of all straglers ; all such proceedings were contrary both to the precept & example of Christ and his Apostles who taught and practiced the contrary , Christ commanding the man out of whom he had cast the devills , and that would have followed him , that he should go to his own friends and abide amongst them still ; and he ever sent all those lepers he cured to the Priests ; he never gathered Churches out of the Jewish churches , neither did ever any of the Apostles or godly Ministers do any such thing , but blamed it in all ; and therefore the Independents going against both precept and example , are highly disobedient to God , and have for these their wicked and ungodly practises a great deal to repent of and to answer for : And if we will compare times with times , we may beleeve it was amongst the Jews as it was amongst us under the Prelates raign and power , those godly and powerfull Ministers such as my reverend Tutor Master Richard Rogers , Mr John Rogers of Dedham and Mr Dod and others ; when they sometimes went to visit their friends through City and Country by their preaching they gained many Souls unto God in many Towns and Villages , where after they had ( through the blessing of God upon their Ministery ) converted them , they left them still abiding in their severall Parishes injoyning them diligently and carefully to wait upon their Ministers there , disswading them from separation upon all occasions ; and so it was amongst the Jews , they came out to the Ministry and Baptisme of Iohn and heard him upon every opportunity , but never left their own Synagogues and their own Ministers , as the Scripture relateth , when they returned to their severall abodes , and so they went out to hear Christ and his Disciples as occasion served , and then returned home again to wait upon the ordinances in their severall dwelling places , and they had Christs command to do this , neither is it ever recorded in all the New Testament , but in the tenth chapter to the Hebrews , that the Christians relinquished the Jewish Assemblies , for which they are greatly blamed by Saint Paul. And I am confident if all the Independents doe not seriously repent of their wicked and pharisaicall separation from our Assemblies , the Lord will shew at last some fearfull judgment upon them . For I affirme it , they have not one president for all these their practices in the whole Book of God : and therefore my brother Burtons instance of the Apostles gathering of Christian churches from out of the Jewish Synagogues , as it is in all respects unchristianlyand and deceitfully done to delude his fellows , so it is not true that he averreth : For the Apostles did never gather Christian Churches out of the Iewish Synagogues : for they had a command from Christ to the contrary ; neither was there any cause for any Christians to separate from them ; for they exercised at that time nothing but the Morall Worship in their Synagogues , having Moses and the Prophets dayly read and interpreted unto them Acts 15. 21. and to those Synagogues that unerring Councell at Jerusalem , consisting of all the Apostles and Presbyters Act. 15. did send all the people and their severall cities to be instructed in Moses ; therefore the Apostles and Ministers of those times never gathered Christian Churches out of the Jewish Synagogues , as my brother Burton would infer to make good their wicked separations from us ; and their gathering of their Churches out of our Christian and beleeving Assemblies , which , I am ever , by Gods assistance , able to make good , is nothing to the question that I propounded concerning the gathering of Churches out of already gathered Churches . And therefore hitherto my brother Burton hath befooled himself to no purpose but to discover unto the World how little skill he hath in Divinity when he is out of a common place wherein every child may learn as much and far more then he can teach him . And this answer to my brother Burton concerning gathering of Christian Churches out of Iewish Synagogues for the justifying of their unwarrantable separation , may serve to the same objection wheresoever the Reader shall meet with it , as Page 18 , &c. And this might suffice to have answered to what my brother Burton had to say to the first Quaerie concerning gathering Churches out of Churches : But because my Brother Burton conceives that if they should not separate themselves from our Christian Assemblies ( whom he saith do not come up close to the rule ) into their several new gathered Congregations , they could not set up Christ upon his Throne as not making his word the rule of reformation or a sufficient rule upon which we must necessarily depend , for the form and law of Reformation , and that we ought not to wait on men ; and thereupon propoundeth a quaerie to me Page 19. thinking by this means the better to justifie their unwarrantable proceedings : therefore I shall first gratifie my brothers desire and answer to his demand and then I will passe on to reply to what he and his complices have to say to my five other quaeries . But I will set downe my Brother Burtons oowne words which are these , p. 19. seeing ( saith he ) wee have all bound our selves by solemne Covenant to reforme our selves , and those under our charge , according to the word of God ; yea , and every one to goe before others in this Reformation ; tell me now Brother ( saith hee ) if it were not a matter worth the while for our Reverend and Learned Assembly , seriously to take into debate , whether the general tying up of men to waite necessarily on the Synod for its finall resolution about Church government , be not an usurpation upon our Christian Liberty and a Diminution at least of the authority and sufficiency of Scripture , and so consequently be not a trenching upon a fundamentall heresie ; as also an inhibition , restrayning every man in his place , Ministers , Masters , &c. from setting upon the work of Reformation , and so necessitating a violation of our Covenant , or a dangerous retarding of the worke ; thus my Brother Burton : these and such like are the subtill baits , and cunning snares wherewith he catches and draws into his Net many ignorant , yet well meaning tender hearted Christians , whereas Reformation and Discipline in the Church in the full power thereof , had beene settled long since , had not Independents studied ways to molest our peace in opposing the setling of Church government , according to the word of God ; for this they have , and doe labour to withstand with all their might and great subtilty , by which meanes my Brother Burton , and those of his faction increase and strengthen their party , and set up their new wayes , and give an in-let to old and new heresies without interruption ; but this practice of Independents is offencive to God and man , and absolutely contrary to that Covenant , which we have all entered into . For when we covenanted for Reformation , it was to be understood that wee were thereby ingaged to humble our selves before the great God , and with fasting and prayer earnestly to seeke to the Lord , who is wise in heart , and mighty in strength , Job 9.4 . able to over-power the hearts , wils and affections of Principalities and powers ; yea , of the greatest Kings and Monarchs in the world ; who by his wisedome can advise , counsell and direct , and by his mighty and omnipotent working , and by the operation of his spirit can inforce , and compell them to obey his Royall commands , and to set up an universall Reformation of Religion and Discipline in his Church , in its full power according to his sacred word and divine will : And whereas wee have all bound our selves by solemne Covenant to reforme our selves , and all under our charge , according to the word of God , this strictly binds every one of us in speciall to Reforme our selves , and those under our charge , by forsaking every sinfull way and evill practice , that wee or they have formerly walked , delighted and continued in , whereby wee have provoked the Holy one of Israel unto anger , Isaiah 1. 4. and hereby Magistrates , Ministers , Parents , Masters of Families are bound to take care , that all under their charge frequent the Ordinances of God , and exercise all holy duties with them , and that they do● not suffer any to wander and straggle abroad into dangerous ways and by-paths , and errors and heresies , and blasphemous tenents ; for if they let them walke where they please , it shewes but little care taken to reforme and keepe them in the right way , which leads to happinesse , and it is a violation of this part of our Covenant , where wee have bound our selves every one , to reforme one , and all under our charge ; yea , and wee are bound every one to labour to goe before others in this Reformation : But our Covenant doth not therefore bind every man and woman to take upon them to set up , and follow what Government seemes good in their own eyes , or rather is most suitable to their boundlesse spirits : our Covenant gives no such Liberty to any ; for were this the sense of the Cov●nant , when it binds every particular man to indeavour to goe before others in Reformation , this were to covenant against sinne , Formality , and Tyrannie , and to vow for unlawfull Libertis●e , Prophanesse , and an Anarchie which would bring inevitable confusion in Church and State ; for under the pretence of going before others in Reformation , Heresies , unwarrantable , corrupt , and dangerous new opinions would then be broached , maintained , and disperst abroad , without either the feare of God or man ( as at this day wee are taught by sad experience ) ; and all these deadly and destroying Heresies would be disseminated and divulged under pretext , that their ways are agreeable to Gods word , and that they come neerer , and walke more close to the rule of Christ then others doe : although their feet tread not in the steps of his commandements , but walke in wayes contrary to his holy will ; and therefore such disorderly walkings as these , are a Deformation of Religion , not a Reformation according to Gods word and our solemne Covenant which wee have all entered into . But my Brother Burton , as I related before , puts it to the question , Whether or no it be not an usurpation upon our Christian Liberty , and a diminution at least of the authoritie and sufficiency of Scripture , &c. for a man to be tyed to waite on the Synod for its finall resolution for Church government : It may be answered for Magistrates to be zealous for Reformation , and to settle that Church government which God hath appointed is so farre from being any usurpation upon our Christian Liberty , or a diminution of the authority and sufficiencie of the holy Scripture , as they have warrant for it out of holy writ ; and the practice of the most godly Princes is there recorded for their example and incouragement , to go on undauntedly in the work , 2 Chron. 15. 8. to the 16. v. 2 Chro. 17. the 6 , 7 , 8 , 9. 2 Chron. 29. &c. 2 Chron. 30. &c. 2 Chron. 31. 31. &c. 2 Chron. 34. &c. 2 King. 23. to the 24. ver . Ezr. 9. Neh. 9. so that Gods word be the absolute rule to direct them in this their undertaking , and the true intent of our Covenant , is that we will all be ayding and assisting to the utmost of our power to further them in their holy indeavours . Now wherein for the effecting of such a Reformation that may in all things bee grounded on Scripture can a better course bee taken then authority hath appointed ? namely , by calling together an Assembly of Ministers , men skilfull in the originall tongues , learned in all other sciences , and approved to be godly , pious , zealous , orthodox men , and mighty in the Scripture , and which is more , to be selfe-denying men , who being met together have humbled themselves by fasting and prayer before the Lord of Heaven and earth , imploring his divine assistance , illumination , and direction out of his holy word , for the Reforming and setling the Government of the Church , according to his sacred will ; and for these godly , conscionable , and learned Ministers , as they did thus meet together , so they have ever since laboriously searched the Scriptures to find out what is the good will and pleasure of our God herein , and they have not concluded of any thing , but what they bring their warrant for out of Gods word , being taken from the example , practice , precepts and commands of the holy Apostles ( and the Churches in their times ) for that government which they stand for , and humbly desire to have setled aud established in the Church of God. Now can it be justly said , that if men waite patiently while these truths are discussing ( which have beene the longer by reason that daily opposition , and many cavilling argumentations that have beene brought against that truth which they hold forth , by some irresolvable spirits ) that this is to tye them to waite on the Synods finall Resolution ? no surely ; for to waite on the meere resolves of men , the wisedome of the State would never permit to tye any man , but to waite on Gods word , and those warrantable and unquestionable truths , which by the Synod are clearely demonstrated out of the same , concerning Church-government ; and this is a truth cannot be denyed , or gain-said , that it is better , and the safest way for men to waite , see , and seriously consider of what God shall out of his word reveale to his faithfull servants the Ministers , who are met together in his name and feare for this very end and purpose , diligently to seeke and find out his good will and pleasure in this particular , then for men to tye themselves to the private opinions and wayes & policie of some particular men , who under the pretence of going before others in Reformation set up what government they please , and cause people to enter into a Covenant of their owne framing , for all which when matters are rightly stated and tryed by the ballance of the Sanctuary , there is not any colour nor warrant out of Gods word , nor in the solemn Covenant which we have taken ; & therefore in the judgement of all , who are humble and low in their owne sight , and who sincerely aym at the glory of God , & Zions peace ; it is not thought any usurpation upon our Christian Liberty , nor diminution of the Scriptures authority , nor retarding of the worke , to waite and see what God shall make cleare to the Synod out of his word , upon their debates , consultations and answers to all opposing parties ; for this is a way to make truth perspicuous , and as wee are exhorted to try all things , and hold fast that which is good ; so those that are godly , and will not be deluded with shewes , they bring all these results to the Touch-stone of Gods word , and if they find that they indure the teste , then they dare not but receive and hold them fast , being the words of sound and wholesome truths , so that the finall Resolution for Church government which men waite for , is not from the Synod , further then they hold it forth , and make it manifest to be agreeable to the Scriptures , and to that rule all men are bound to submit , and we ought to waite and see what the Synod doth conclude of out of Gods word , as the Church of Antioch , and other Churches did , Acts 15. where we have a President for our imitation set before our eyes , in the which wee may observe that the Christians of those times were as well instructed as any in the new gathered Churches , or any of the dissenting brethren , whether assembled or not assembled , and yet all those holy and godly Christians thought it no usurpation upon their Christian Liberty , nor no diminution of the authority and sufficiency of the Scripture , nor no dangerous retarding of the worke of reformation , and of setling their Church-government , to waite upon the Synod at Ierusalem for their finall resolution about that question there in debate , and which had caused so great a schisme betweene the Jewes and Gentiles ; I say these glorious and truly precious Christians had none of these panicke feares the Ill-dependents of our times are troubled with , but willingly and cheerfully waited upon that Synod and Councell , without making in the meane time any rents and separations from their Christian brethren ; and this their doing was left for our example to teach us to doe the like , and not under a semblance and shew of going before others in ●reformation to make rents and schismes in the Church and State , and to gather new Churches , and separate Assemblies ; and this shall suffice in way of answer to have spake to all my Brother Burtons cavils against my first Querie , and for answer likewise to the question propounded by him to mee : and now I come to see what my Brother Burton hath to say concerning my second Querie , viz. touching the requisites in those that are to bee made Members ; the Reader may looke backe to the querie by which hee will the better discerne the Grollery of the man , As for I. S. hee answers to that querie ( although it be the practice of many of new gathered Churches ) that hee knowes none such who hold it so ; so that it seemes I. S. is but a Catachumenos in the Independents doctrine , whiles hee undertakes to instruct others in it : But my Brother Burton he is well verst in all the Ill-dependent discipline , both for the Theory and Practick , who answers thus to my second querie , page 14. I pray ( saith he ) what harme is in that , that none are to bee allowed of but by the consent and approbation of all the congregation ? for answer I say , very much harme , in regard they impose a Law upon their brethren , that Christ the King of his Church never laid upon his people , by which they deprive them of that Christian Liberty Christ hath purchased for them , and in the which they have a command to stand fast , Gal. 5. 1. which is not to bee intangled with any yoake of humane bondage . But it will not be amisse to heare his reasons ; They ( saith he ) who are to walke together , should first be agreed together , as Amos the 3. 3. ( an two walke together except they be agreed ? If therefore any one of the Congregation can object any thing , as a just cause of non-admittance of a Member , hee ought to shew it , not onely for his owne peace , but the peace of the Church , &c. A second reason is this , to know those well ( saith hee ) that are to be admitted , abundans cautela non nocet , in things weighty we cannot be too wary ; nor do we so much look at circumstances in conversion , as the substance . This is all my brother Burton hath to answer to my second qu●ry which he calleth a caption . But for answer , I expected that he should have produced some command or example out of Gods Word , for the ratifying of this their practice in their new congregations ; for that is ever to be the rule of Christians obedience , and where our King Christ Jesus hath ceased to command , there all his servants must cease to obey ; now when these of the congregationall way have neither precept nor president for these their proceedings in their admission of Members , it is but a vaine tradition of their owne braine and ought by all Christs true Disciples to be abhorred and abominated . But whereas my brother Burton saith , that they that are to walk together , should first be agreed together , and cites these words out of third of Amos ver . 3. Can two walke together except they be agreed ? To this I thus Reply : First , that if the Independents were Gods , and all the Presbyterians went on in wicked and sinfull courses , then this question of his had been to the purpose ; but when it is certain that the Illdependents are sinners as well as the other Sonnes and Daughters of Adam , and many of them known to be notoriously scandalous , not onely for their damnable and hereticall opinions and schismaticall doctrines , but for their lying , rayling , hypocrisie , pride , covetousnesse , &c. and all of them guilty of the sin of seducing and misleading the poor people ; I say in all these regards , I see no reason why there should be any necessity layd upon Gods heritage and people to be acquainted with them and their ways , except it be that all such as fear God and will walk in his pathes , by knowing of them , may shun them and their by-wayes , which they are bound to do both from precept Prov. 4. v. 14 , 15. Ps . 1. v. 1. and from the example of our Saviour , Ioh. 2. ver . 24. where it is said that Iesus did not commit himselfe unto them , because he knew them . And so all good people and such as truly fear God should make use of their knowledge to shun such seducers and deceivers , and to decline all their by-wayes . But secondly , I answer that God hath no where injoyned or required that those that either are to be made Christians , or to be admitted into Church fellowship should either know the faces of all the Members of the congregation , or should be particularly acquainted with the whole church that he is to be admitted a Member of : For we have no warrant for such practice in the whole Scripture , neither is there any example of it from one end of the Bible to the other ; and therefore it is meer Will-Worship and a serving of God after the commandments of men , which is so often condemned in holy Scripture , as Isaiah 29. Matth. 15. Mark 7. Coloss . 2. and therfore ought to be abhorred as an intolerable yoke of bondage , which neither we nor our forefathers could bear Acts 15. Whereas Christs yoke is easie and light , and they that take his yoke vpon them finde rest unto their soules Matth. 11. ver . 28 , 29 , 30. who saith unto his people , Come unto me all ye that labour and are heavy laden and I will give you rest . He doth not say , If you will come to me and be admitted into church ▪ fellowship , you must first walk sometime with my people and be acquainted with them ; I say Christ the King of his church hath given no such command either to those that are to be admitted or to his Ministers and stewards of his house which is his church of any such practice . Thirdly , I answer that as there is an impossibility almost for any man or woman to be acquainted with a whole Church , so it is neither necessary nor usefull : For that knowledge that is required as necessary to salvation and for the making of any fit to be church Members , consists in these things , that they repent and beleeve and be baptized , and that they should know the onely true God and whom he hath sent , Jesus Christ . John 17. And this is the first thing absolutely necessary to salvation which is required of all such as will be Christs Disciples . The second thing is , the knowledge of our selves , which consists in self-denyall and regeneration , For if any will be Christs Disciples they must deny themselves and take up his crosse dayly ; For so saith Christ our King Matth. 16. Luke 9. And again John 3. ver . 3. Christ speaking unto Nicodemus , saith to him and in him to all men , Except a man be born again he cannot see the Kingdome of God ver . 5. Except a man be born of water and of the spirit he cannot enter into the Kingdome of God : He must be a new creature , saith he . And this is the knowledge that Christ the King of his church requires as necessary for their salvation , so for their admission into church fellowship , and he that has these qualifications has as much as Christ requires ; and there is no need of any particular or familiar acquaintance with all those of the congregation or with the whole church or that they should walk some time with them , therefore it is wickedly done in all those of the congregational way to impose laws of their own making upon the people of God their brethren who are a free people : and therefore they that desire to serve their King Christ Jesus and to hear and obey his voice only , ought to detest all these false teachers that would so inthrall them , especially they ought to abominate their practices because they make these their traditions Gods Ordinances . But whereas my brother Burton saith that abundans cautela non nocet , and that they look not so much at circumstances in conversion , as the substance . I affirme it is a most arrogant expression in any so to speak ; for in his thus speaking , he makes as if it were in the power of poor mortall creatures to search mens hearts and judge of the secrets of the same which is onely Gods peculiar : but that is not all , but in this his expression there is a high strain of confidence in the man that he will seem to be wiser then Christ himselfe that was the King and Lawgiver of his Church and the mighty Councellour ; and yet he gave no precept for this abundans cautela : and yet it is most certain , that he revealed the whole will of his Father , and his Disciples also delivered unto the church the whole counsell of God Act. 21. And yet neither Christ nor his Apostles did ever deliver this doctrine of walking with the church sometime , nor never spake of this abundans cautela ; therefore I gather it is neither part of the will or councell of God that they injoyn this walking upon his people : therefore all the true subjects of Jesus Christ and all his leige people ought to abominate and abhorre all such usurpers as my ▪ Brother Burton and his complices are , that trample down the Laws of Christ our King and impose their own inventions and traditions upon his people for Christs Ordinances and Statutes . And this shall suffice to have spak to what my brother Burton had to say to my second Qu●rie . To the third quaerie , concerning the consent of the people and congregation , my brother Burton replyes that it is answered before , which was no answer to that quaerie . But now learned I. S. comes in , and Page 18. We hold it ( saith he ) yea , that for the admission of any to Membership or Office bearing in a church the consent of the congregation or the major part thereof , as well as officers , be required , and that as well in regard every one takes a charge upon him as in respect of interest . I expected that this groll I. S. should according to his promise , not onely have given me a parcell of words ; but as he accounted me a Catachumenos , that he should have taught and instructed me out of Gods Word , which must be the rule of our obedience , and out of his statutes , where ever Christ the King of his Church had ever given such a law unto his people that they should admit of none into his house without the consent of all their fellow servants , and where he did resign his authority and put it into the peoples hands , and commanded them that they should take a charge of his family upon them as having an interest in it : and where Christ did ever by any law or statute make his people servants to each other , as that they should take a charg over them & have an interest in them to judge them at pleasure ; all this I looked for at I. S. his hands , and that now he should have fully informed me in it ; especially when we have a command from Christ our King to the contrary I desire to go on warily 1 Cor. 7. 23. who saith to all his servants and subjects by his Apostle , Ye are bought with a price , be not ye the servants of men : Now if we are not to be the servants of men , how then comes it to passe that the Independents make us not onely servants but slaves and vassals to them ? for what greater bondage and servitude can there be in the World then to be under the controule of every one his fellow servants ? so that without their good likin● they can neither come in nor go out of their masters house , nor be admitted to do that service their master calls for at their hands , but if any one of their fellow servants shall except against him , he must be kept out of doors . I appeal here to the judgement of all men whether there were ever extant in the World such a generation of Lordly Gentlemen over Gods heritage seen since mortality inhabited the earth ; or that did ever more impudently domineer and Lord it over Gods Clergyes then in this our age where every man makes himselfe a Lord and Judge over his brother who is purchased by Christ his King and made free by his Word ; especially is not this a horrid insolency in any to take upon him to judge his brother , when there is a statute , law and a command laid upon him to the contrary ? Rom. 14. 13. Let us not therefore ( saith the Apostle ) judg one another any more , but judg this rather , that no man put a stumbling block or occasion to fall in his brothers way , in the which Law & statute there are 2 observables . The first is this , that no man should judge his brother any more : and this statute is ratified by many other and from most warrantable and divine reason ; the other statutes that confirme this are many in the same chapter with the reasons thereof : For saith the Apostle , What art thou that judgest another mans servant ? to his own master he standeth or falleth ver . 4. therefore thou oughtest not to judge him , For to this end ( saith he ) ver . 9. Christ both dyed , rose again and revived , that he might be Lord both of the dead and living . Christ saith he is our Lord both by donation , by conquest , by purchase , by covenant , by fellowship with the sonne and with the Father , we were given unto him by God the Father , and he conquered all our enemies and led captivity captive , and vanquished the strong and armed man and disarmed him , and rescued all his servants out of his slavery , & he hath redeemed us by no less price then his pretious blood , and we are his people also by covenant and by communion in his graces and resurrection and glory injoying with him all felicity and everlasting happinesse with an eternall Kingdome ; therefore saith he in the 12. verse , Why dost thou judge thy brother , and why dost thou set at naught thy brother ? we shall all stand before the judgement seat of Christ . Therefore judge not thy brother . And St. James saith , my brethren be not many Masters . And this I say is the first observable out of that text ; that we ought not to judge one another any more . The second observeable is that no man should put a stumbling blocke , or occasion of fall in his brothers way . Now I appeale unto any man , what greater stumbling blocke , or occasion to fall can be put in any mans way , then when men on their own heads impose a Law upon their brethren that Christ our King never gave to his people , or what greater scandall and offence can be given to a poore servant of Jesus Christ his King , then to be thrust out of their Masters doores , or to be kept out of their Masters house , and to be judged at the will and pleasure of his fellow servants , whether hee be fit to come into his Maastars family or not ; if this be not to judge his brother , if this be not a scandall ; yea , if this be not an intolerable tyrannie , there was never any either judgement , scandall or tyrannie in the world , nor greater rebellion and contumacy against the King of his Church , and against his subjects ▪ servants , and redeemed ones : and therefore if the Pope and Prelates were so much abominated and abhorred of all men for their usurpation over Gods heritage and clergies , how much ought such squanderling fellowes as this I. S. and his complices be abominated , who thus take upon them to discerne into the very secrets of their brethrens hearts , and to judge them fit or not fit to be received into Church fellowship , and into the communion of Saints , and according to their conceit and opinion , so to bring in their verdict of admission or non-admission , when Christ our Lord and King sayes , judge not lest ye bee judgod , Matth. 3. and bids all men that are heavie laden to come unto him , Matth. 11. and saith , Iohn the 6. v. 37. Him that comethunto me I will in no way cast out . Here the Lord the King of his Church gives free admittance to all his subjects and servants to come into his Kingdom and house ; but here is my Lord Taps his Chaplaine and his associats , and they all take upon them this power and authority , that except it be by their good leave & liking , they shall not be admitted into the house of God ; for they have a charge over that house , and an interest also ; these are I. S. his owne expressions . Now I do here againe appeale to any that have but any ordinary understanding , whether there was ever such a supercilious brood of creatures in the world before these Ill-dependents were hatcht that can thus trample all the Lawes of Christ under their polluted feet , and yet pretend they onely set him up upon his Throne , when notwithstanding it is apparently evident , they practise the contrary , and violate all his most holy Statutes , and preferre their owne traditions before his commandements , as this is one of judging their Brethren , and not admitting of them into Christs Church and house , without the consent of the whole Church , when Christ neverthelesse hath enacted so many Lawes to the contrary . And this shall suffice to have spake in way of answer to what I. S. had to say to my third querie ; the fourth followes concerning the covenant , whether necessary to admission ? To which my brother Burton thus replyes , page 14. Now ( saith hee ) the very name of a Covenant is become a bug-bear to many , and tels us moreover what hee hath said concerning their covenant in his vindication ( that learned peece of stuffe , such an other as his Truth shut of doores ) and his Protestation protested , and then hee makes a briefe Description of their covenant to no purpose , and then concludes , that it is not the name of Covenant that is so terrible , but the order of Church-communion ; and this is to those onely , that having usod to walke without a yoake , as the Scripture cals sonnes of Beliall , love not to come under the yoake of Christ , then which to a willing bearer nothing is more easie and sweet . I expected from my Brother Burton especially , who talkes so much of setting up Christ upon his Throne , as hee counts all men enemies of Jesus Christ , and Converts but in part , when they come not up close to the rule of Reformation , Gods Word ; for thus my brother speaks , page 18. I say I expected from him , that hee should have ratified their practice , in admitting of their Members by a particular explicite covenant from the Word of God , and from either some command , or some example , both which when this their practice wanteth , it can not be of faith , and therefore is sinfull . But I desire the Reader to observe some particulars in my brother Burtons expressions , not to shew the vanity , sinne and uncharitablenesse of them all , for that would require a tractate by it selfe . But first ; I pray observe , the very name ( saith hee ) of a covenant is become a Bug-beare to many , that is to say a terrour againe a few lines , after he saith , that it is not the name of a covenant that is so terrible , but the order of Church-communion . Here I leave my Brother Burton to reconcile his owne contradiction , the very name of a Covenant ( saith hee ) is a Bug-beare , and it is not the name of a covenant that is so terrible . Secondly , hee acknowledges that this covenant is a yoake , and so it is indeed ; but withall it is worthy of observation , hee cals it Christs yoake , and yet it was never imposed upon the people of God by Christs command , nor was it appointed by him : so that whatsoever they bring into the church upon their owne braines they impose it upon the people as one of Gods Ordinances , which is an insufferable insolencie in these men . Thirdly , my Brother Burton accounteth of all such as will not submit it themselves to their government , and goe in their church way to receive or take their covenant , to be the sonnes of Belial , and not under Christs yoake ; these are his words , page 14. Thus charitably the Independents thinke of all the Presbyterians their Brethren , because forsooth wee will not enter into their covenant , which notwithstanding they can neither give us either Precept or President for ou● of the whole Word of God , they account us the sonnes of Belial . Now wee are taught , that whatsoever is not of faith is sinne , and whatsoever is not grounded upon Gods Word , all men know is not of faith , which when their Church practiseth without it , it is most apparent that they are in a sinfull way , and therefore are rather the sonnes of Belial then wee . But learned I. S. page 18. whiles hee goes about to defend the covenant , sayes enough utterly to overthrow it . The fourth querie ( saith hee ) of an explicite covenant , whether necessary to admission . Answ . I know not ( saith hee ) why it should be more incovenient then a publicke nationall Covenant . But necessary ( saith he ) wee hold it not ; all the world may see that I. S. is but a novice in the Independent Principles : yea , that hee is a very catechumenos : For all those that are any thing acquainted in the Independents Principles , hold this explicite covenant to be the forme of the church , without the which the church cannot be a church , nor without the taking of the which , there can be no admittance into church-fellowship with them ; yea , my Brother Burton cals it Christs yoake , and proclaimes all those that will not weare it to be the sonnes of Belial . So that these men do not agree amongst themselves , the one party of them holding the particular covenant absolutely necessary , the other saying , but necessary wee hold it not . So then by I. S. his owne confession , who speakes in the name of all his party , it is none of Gods Ordinances , for all Gods Ordinances are necessary in their season , and whosoever should contemne or slight the least of them sinneth greatly . But whereas I. S. saith , that hee knoweth not why a particular explicite covenant should bee more inconvenient then a publicke nationall covenant , I affirme this is fondly spake of I. S. For wee have divers Presidents and examples in holy Scripture and precepts for entring into publicke covenants , and wee have read of the benefit that hath from them redounded to the whole nation & country by them for incouragement to all men , upon just occasions to enter into some solemne covenant with our God : but wee have neither precept nor example in all Gods Word of an explicite particular covenant taken in any church ; and therefore it must needs be inconvenient as not being of faith : for whatsoever is not of faith is inconvenient ; yea , very hurtfull to him that doth any thing in Gods matters without it ; for it is sinne to him , and will bring downe punishment upon him for it . But for I. S. I will say no more to him about this point , who I finde to be a very catechumenos in the principles of Independency , when notwithstanding he promised me he would teach and instruct me in the Independent way . But I will now examine the Reason that the Author of the Book called Truth gloriously appearing from under the sad and sable Cloud of Obloquy , giveth for this their covenant . He Page 126 labors to prove their particular explicite covenant out of that place , Acts the 9. verse 16. Where when Paul was come to Jerusalem , he assayed to joyn himself with the Disciples . Now saith he , the word joyn in the original 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies to joyn by Covenant , and intimates such a joyning of Paul to the Church , as the joyning of a man to his wife : For in Matthew ( saith he ) the same word is used , Matth. 19. 5. For this cause ( saith our Saviour ) shall a man leave father and mother , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 shall cleave to his wife . Now ( saith he ) we know that a man cleaves to his wife by a covenant , and therefore why not so to the Church ? If he had said , why not so , unto Christ , he had said something to the purpose ; for we are married onely unto Christ , and not to the Church , knowing that the Church is Christs Spouse , and Christ is the Churches Husband ; and we are married unto Christ , and not to the Church and one to another ; neither did any Christian yet ever deny , but that all those that would be joyned unto Christ , and so be received into his house and family , and be subjects of his Kingdom , they must take the oath of Allegeance unto their King Christ , and therefore must enter into his house , which is his Church , by the covenant of Baptism ; this I say all men accord unto , when men are first admitted into the Church : And this covenant , I say , all that will be Christs Disciples , and of his Kingdom and Family , must take before they can be admitted . But that they should after they are baptized , enter into another particular explicite covenant , and by that binde themselves to the Church ; I affirm , there is neither precept nor president for it in all the holy Scripture , either of the old or new Testament ; neither is there any such mystery in the Greek word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as to imploy so much ; for we know the same word is used in the eighth Chapter of the Acts , verse 29. Where the Spirit said to Philip , go neer and joyn thy self to this Chariot . Where the word joyn in the original is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by the which word , Philip did not understand that he must joyn himself to the Eunuchs chariot by a particular explicite covenant . No more ought any wise man to conceive , that when Paul assayed to joyn himself to the Disciples , that by that he would have taken a particular explicite covenant of Church fellowship : This is nothing else but to beg the question , and to amuse the simple , and to deceive them by taintering the words of Scripture , and stretching them beyong their native signification , to make them fit for their occasions , that they may juggle the better to delude the poor people , which is a great wickednesse in these men thus to trisle about words , till they loose the Truth , which is the substance to the destroying of their poor souls . The truth is , that word is often used in the holy Scripture , and is used metaphorically as being taken from Joyners and crafts men , that joyn many things together by Glew : And ●o ordinary discourse it intimates a close joyning , whether natural as a branch to the Vine , or an arm to the Body , or artificial , as when two sticks are joyned to become one in Ezekiels hand , Ezek. 37. As when Masons joyn stones together , or Carpenters timber to make a house . But that this word joyn should alwayes imploy a particular explicite covenant to any Church or Congregation , when any man takes on him a new relation to it and is made a member of it : I affirm , there is not one example of it in all the Word of God ; and as for any command , that every member of a Church should do it , there is none : And therefore , it is a meer Will-worship , and one of their own Traditions , and ought to be abandoned of all Christs Disciples , and with so much the more detestation , because they make it one of Gods Ordinances , and part of his Service and Worship , and the very form of a Church , whereas it is a batch of their own leven , by which they have of late much sowred the Truth . But as I said before , so I say now again , that Christians are to swear fealty onely to their King and Lord Christ Jesus , who is their husband , and who is the onely Master of his own House and Church , and whose voice is onely to be heard , and whose Laws are onely to be obeyed and listned unto ; & we swear no allegiance or fealty to the Church , for we are all his servants & domesticks , and have no authority one over another , to impose Laws upon each other , or to enter in to any covenants amongst our selves , without a special command from Christ : And as when Stewards of Princes or Noblemen , take any in to their masters families , they swear them onely to their lords and masters ; we never hear that the servants enter into any covenant among themselves , or joyn or unite themselves in covenant one to cleave unto another : Such proceedings amongst servants would never be allowed or tolerated amongst men , it would be thought rather a conspiracy or a confederation to do mischeif , if they should attempt such a thing . As when those men enterd in to a covenant amongst themselves , that they would neither eat nor drink till they had killed Paul ; yea , it hath ever been observed in all countreys , That when servants began once to combine together , and to joyn themselves by secret covenants , they have alwayes plotted mischeif , and therefore there hath been special care used to prevent such conspiracies . And all men may well perceive by this their covenanting in their new gathered Churches , what it tends to , if God of his infinite goodnesse prevents not their designe : Therefore , I say , we being Christs domesticks and his Church , and being his house , and he being the onely Lord of it , and our King , we are to smite our covenant onely with him , and to swear fealty and obedience to him onely , and his Laws , and we are not to be the servants of men , 1 Cor. 7. And therefore the Lord saith in Malachi the first , If I be a father , where is my reverence ; if I be a Lord , where is my honor ? How is it that ye obey me not ? We are onely therefore to obey his voice , and not to regard the traditions of men , or to serve God after the commandments of men : Now then , when the Independents impose this their covenant upon the people as a part of Gods worship , and will not admit of any into their new Churches , without entering in to this conspiracy ; I say , by all their proceedings in as much as in them lies , they dis-throne Christ in preferring their own laws before his ; wherein they commit a detestable wickednesse . And this sh●ll serve to have spake concerning the fourth quere . And now I come to the fifth , of womens votes , whether they are to be admitted in elections ? To which my Brother Burton thus replies , Page 15. We ( saith he ) tie not the keys to womens girdles . And I. S. page 19. But as for this of womens voting in the Church ( saith he ) we have no such custome , nor any of the Churches of God that I know . Thus he . For answer to both , my Brother Burton and I. S. I say thus much , That they cannot be ignorant of the practice of the Churches , in many of which , and those the principalest and the choicest ones , to my knowledge the women had their voices both for the receiving in of members , and for the casting of them out upon any scandal ; so that there were none admitted , either men or women , though of never so great rank and quality , without the leave and good liking of the women ; so that if at any time they opposed the entrance of any , though it were but upon meer jealousies that they were not godly , they could not be admitted members of those Congregations : But it seems they are now ashamed of this their practice , and therefore plead ignorance in the businesse . But that the world may see I write nothing in my first Book concerning womens voting of it in Churches , I shall recite some two or three stories , omitting many to prove their practices in those dayes . And what I shall relate , and much more I undertake to prove by sufficient witnesses whensoever the Independents shall put me upon it . And withall I shall make it appear , there was never greater juggling then hath been amongst those of the Congregational-way , in admitting of members . The stories briefly are these : A Gentlewoman of my acquaintance coming up to London , since these New Lights broke out , was so infatuated with them , that shee had a great desire to joyne her selfe to one of the prime Churches of the congregationall way , concerning the which Gentlewoman I can say thus much upon my owne experience , and it can be proved by many , that whatsoever shee is now , before shee became an Independent , she was a woman not onely of an emaculate life and conversation , but a woman of singular piety and charity towards all to her ability , and who ordinarily twice or thrice a week was wont to set dayes apart in private to seeke God , and to humble her selfe by fasting and prayer , and this was her constant course of life . Yet this woman assaying to joyne her selfe unto these new disciples , and being to make the confession of her faith before the congregation , and to bring in the evidences of her conversion , shee not having had many moneths acquaintance with them , and having not walked with them above halfe a yeare , or there-abouts , was forced the better to make the Church understand the worke of grace wrought in her heart , to recite unto them her course of life , how shee had constantly walked with God , and what communion she had with him , signifying with all that shee had ever loved the Saints and brethren , a sufficient token of conversion , and of being one of Christs disciples , if either Christs owne testimonie or Saint Iohns may be beleeved . Yet when shee had made an end of her confession of her faith , and produced her evidences , a Wench rose up in the Congregation , and profest before them all that shee was not satisfied with her evidences that shee was a beleever , for as much as the Pharisees for all outward performances could say as much as shee did , or used words to this effect . Vpon which the Church could not admit her , for the sister was not satisfied : So that the Gentlewoman since joyned her selfe to another Congregation . An other president is of a young man , reputed amongst his neighbours very godly , who being much inamoured with the new way of Church-fellowship , assayed to joyne himselfe to one of their congregations , not that I spake of before , and being to make his confession , and to bring in his evidences , and having to satisfie the Church , done as much as they injoyned him to doe , two of the women in that Assembly opposed his admission ; so that without their good liking hee could not be admitted a Member , and hee applying himselfe unto their Pastor , and to the Elders gave many signes of his true conversion , so that they related unto him that for their parts they had nothing to say to him in way of opposition , but wisht him to apply himselfe to those sisters , telling him , that without their consent they could not admit him into Church-fellowship , whereupon hee makes his addresses to them , and sometimes hee courted them for their favour , sometime hee expostulated with them , desiring to know their reasons why they were so adverse to him , and would not grant their consents , demanding of them if they knew any thing by his conversation , and they replyed , no , but they could not beleeve he was godly and sanctified , and fit for Church fellowship ; and whether or no hee was ever admitted in that Congregation , I know not ; but at that time hee could not be admitted , and for no other reason that can be given , but that the sisters did not give their consents , and they could alleage no other ground of their not agreeing to his admission , but that they conceived he was not godly . The third Storie is of one that was reputed a very honest and godly man amongst all his acquaintance , and who had also walked sometime amongst them in one of their new congregations , and earnestly desired to be admitted a joyned Member , and hee bringing in his evidences , and making the confession of his faith , satisfactory enough to many of the Church , for the proving of himselfe fit for Member-ship , a married woman rose up in the congregation , and profest before them all she could not beleeve he was fit tobe admitted as a Member of that church , and used some triviall reasons , for her not assenting to his admssion , and for that time hee could not be received into the congregation , having not given the good sister plenary satisfaction ; and whether hee be yet received into church-fellowship , I know not , but that he was by the woman at that time put off , that I shall be able to prove , with the other two Stories , and be able likewise to produce many such Presidents more . Now I referre this to any understanding mans judgement , whether the Keyes in many of the new gathered churches be not tyed unto the womens Girdles , and whether my Brother Burton and I. S. are alwayes to be credited , either in their denials or affirmations . And this shall suffice to have spake of the fifth querie . And now I come to the sixth and last querie , viz. Whether the practising and preaching of all these things , &c. be to set up Christ as King upon his Throne ? to the which querie my Brother Burton , and I. S. answer as two Jugglers , nothing to the purpose . My Brother Burtons words are these , page 19 Those Churches ( saith hee ) that are for matter and forme true Churches , and are governed according to Christs Word , doe set up Christ as King upon his Throne : and for such as are otherwise , let them consider whether they doe as they ought , set up Christ as King upon his Throne . This is my Brother Burtons answer to my sixt querie . Now whether this be a direct answer to my querie , I leave it to the judgement of the Learned . But from this his answer I may boldly conclude , that their new congregations doe not set up Christ as King upon his Throne , they fayling both for the matter and forme of true churches , and being not governed according to the Word of God ; all which I have sufficiently proved in my foregoing Discourse . As for J. S. hee answers nothing to the question , as all that shall reade his words may well perceive , which are these . I answer , ( saith hee ) no question but the purging and purifying of Church Ordinances and Fellowship , which some contend for , is to set Christ upon a higher Throne visible to the world , then by some other wayes hee is , &c. Now w hether this be a satisfactory answer to the querie , I leave it to others to judge of , but from his words I thus argue ; Where Christs Ordinances and Church-fellowship are polluted , there Christ is not set up upon his Throne ; but in all the new congregations Christs Ordinances are polluted , and Church-fellowship contaminated , as I have sufficiently proved ; Ergo , Christ is not set up there on his Throne . And this shall suffice to have spake by way of answer to all they had to say to my queries . But now I shall set down Gods method , and the Apostles practice in gathering of churches , and the manner they used in making Members in every Church , and compare it with the method our brethren the Independents use in gathering of their congregations , that all men may the better discerne truth from error , and may all be undeceived in this businesse of so great concernment . And I will first begin with Christs Commission given to his Apostles , and in them to all Ministers , and then consider the practice of Iohn the Baptist , and of all the Apostles and Ministers in the Primitive Church and the order that God himselfe used for the gathering of those that belong unto his election , and for the congregating of the lost sheep of the house of Israel into the fold of Jesus Christ , who is that great Shepherd and Bishop of our soules ; and I conceive that Gods order and the Apostles practice is rather to be followed then any other new found way . But to begin with Christs Commission to his Apostles , Matth. 21. verse 19 , 20. Go ye therefore , saith Christ , and teach all Nations , baptizing them , In the Name of the Father , Sonne and holy Ghost ; teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I command you ; and lo ! I am with you even to the end of the World , Amen . And in the 16. of Marke verse 15 , 16. He saith unto them , Go ye into all the World , and preach the Gospell unto every creature : He that beleeveth and is baptized shall be saved , but he that beleeveth not shall be damned . And in the 26. of the Acts , Saint Paul after he had declared the manner of his conversion to King Agrippa , he likewise made known unto him the commission he had received from Christ Jesus , in the words following , verse 15 , 16. 17 , 18 , 19 , 20. And I said , who art thou Lord ? and he said , I am Iesus whom thou persecutest ; but rise and stand upon thy feet , for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose , to make thee a Minister and a Witnesse , both of these things which thou hast seen , and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee , delivering thee from the people , and from the Gentiles , unto whom now I send thee to open their eyes , and to turne them from darknesse to light and from the power of Satan unto God , that they may receive forgivenesse of sinnes , and an inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith which is in me ; whereupon I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision , but shewed first unto them of Damascus and at Jerusalem , and through all the coasts of Judea , and then to the Gentiles , that they should repent and turne to God , and do works meet for repentance . Out of these severall places , from the Commission of Christ given to his blessed Apostles , and to all Ministers and Preachers of the Gospell to the end of the World : here observe these things . First , that their bounds and limits were set them , how farre they should go in their teaching all Nations , and beyond which they might not passe ; and they were these , that they should teach no other things but what Christ commanded them and appeared to them in , and for the which they had his Word and Warrant ; and so long as they should do this , he promised them and all that should succeed them in the Ministery , to the end of the World to be with them . We also further observe the condition in the executing of this their commission , they were to propound unto all Nations and people upon what condition they were to be admitted into the Church , and that was ●aith & repentance ; and they were to receive all such as beleeved and were baptized , and that upon the profession of their faith and repentance , without any further testimony of others , unlesse they had been formerly known to be open enemies and persecutors of the church , and then they were justly to be suspected , till they had given publike evidence by witnesse to the Apostles and Ministers of their true conversion , as it hapned to Paul , whom for a time the Disciples feared , Acts 9. 26 , 27. till they had better information and proofe that he now preached the faith that he had once persecuted , and had suffered for it , which is the onely president we have in all the Acts of the Apostles of any that were refused to be admitted into the communion and fellowship of the Apostles , as I remember ( for he was a Minister before ) but all the other that came in were admitted upon their own offer , if they tendred themselves and imbraced the Gospell , and were baptized , and that without any reluctation or s●ruple . Now before I come to my third observation out of the commission given to the Apostles , I must wait here a little upon the motions of my brother Burtons pen which as it marches along , makes now and then some whibling incursions into my quarters ; and therefore that all men may see my forces are ever in a readinesse , and that I am alwayes willing to fight him wheresoever I meet him , and that my brother Burton also may see how ready I am to gratifie his desire , who Page 7. saith , Come on brother , let you and I try it out by the dint of this Sword. I will here skirmish a little with him to breath him , and then go after him ; in the 15. Page of his book he puts me upon the reconciling of a contradiction which he conceives I made : For saith he , Page 101. of your book , you say , The Apostles and other Ministers of the Gospel were to receive all such as beleeved and were baptized , and that upon the pr ofession of their faith and repentance without any further testimony of others , unlesse they had been formerly known to be open enemies , and then they were justly to be suspected , till they had given publique evidence by witnesse to the Apostles and Ministers of their true conversion as concerning Paul. Acts 9. 26 , 27. Now here ( saith my brother Burton ) I observe . First , a notable contradiction to what you say Page 115. As Gods command to all Ministers was that they should admit all such into the Church , as beleeved and were baptized upon their desiring it , without any confession either private or publike . Here ( saith my brother Burton ) I leave you to reconcile your own contradiction , upon their profession and without any confession . For Answer , I assert that my words are so far from a notable contradiction to any men that know what a contradiction is , that there is not at all so much as a very similitude of a contradiction in them : For what contradiction I pray is there in these expressions ? The Ministers of the Gospell are to receive all such as beleeve and are baptized , and that upon the profession of their faith and repentance , &c. Gods command to all Ministers , is , that they shall admit all such into the Church as beleeve and are baptized upon their desiring it without any confession &c. Here as all the world may see is no contradiction . But if I had in those places expressed my selfe thus : viz. the Ministers of the Gospell are to admit none into the Church but upon their publike confession of their faith . And in the second place if I had said , God commands all Ministers to admit all such into the Church as beleeve and are baptized , without any confession of their faith . Then my brother Burton might have had a poor occasion of making observations ; but if upon a conceipt of so small a thing as a contradiction , he will call for the attention of the whole world , and cry out a notable contradiction ! how would this man vapor if he could get some great advantage against me ? without doubt he would cry Victoria Victoria . I do beleeve that Saint Cretensis would not more radomontadoe it over even to be honoured Master Edwards then he would over me : But as I said before and as all the judicious wil observe , there is no contradiction in those two expressions ; for to describe one and the same thing in a various manner , is no contradiction , which as the learned know ▪ consists in denying and affirming of one and the same thing , which the saying , upon their profession , and without any confession , does not ; for profession is one thing , and confession is another , they are two distinct things ; and therefore there was no denying and affirming of one and the same thing ; and therefore no contradiction . But by such triflings as these are , my brother Burton , ● . S. and Hanserdo Knollys , like those evill workers Saint Paul speaks of Phil. 3. 2. whom he commands all Christians to beware of , they squander away their pretious time to delude and deceive the ignorant people , whereas they might better by far imploy themselves if they were all now this hot weather in the Butchers shambles a killing of flyes . And this shall serve in way of Answer to his first observation of a notable contradiction . And now I come to his other observation in the same page , but to what it hath relation I know not ▪ nor how he brings it in to be an answer nor what he intends by it : for the man is very rambling , but thus he speaketh there . Secondly saith he , I answer , that in these dayes of professed and covenanted for Reformation , there is required the profession or confession of one speciall point of faith ( which in words none dare , but in practice most do deny ) touching Christs Kingly office and his absolute sole soveraignty , &c. Thus he there expatiates , but against whom or what he makes that answer I know not : For thus much I can say in the behalfe of all the godly and learned Presbyterians there are no men upon the earth that more endeavour both in word and deed to professe and confesse that speciall point of faith touching Christs Kingly office and his absolute soveraignty ( as by all their practices they declare ) then they , as all their learned Sermons and Writings can witnesse : and on the other side concerning all the Illdependents and Sectaries I can truly say thus much , that never any people made a greater noise in words of advanceing Christ and setting him up naked upon his Throne ( for so they speak ) then they do , and yet never did any people more dishonour him or disthrone him then they , as in the foregoing discourse I have sufficiently proved . And therefore if this his second Answer concerns any , it belongs to the Independents , and it highly indeed concerns them all , to consider their erroneous wayes and now at last to seek after the wayes of Truth , Peace and Love , and not thus with their tongues and penns to set the whole world on fire and then to warm and heat themselvs by the light of it , like those that danced about their calfe , who did eat and drink and rose up to play . And this shall serve for answer to that . And so now I go on to my third observation out of the Apostles Commission . The third thing we may observe , is , that this commission was delivered only to the Apostles and Ministers of the Gospel , and that it was their place only , who had the Keys delivered unto them to open and shut the doors of the Church , to admit such as they thought for their faith , knowledge and repentance were sufficiently qualified and fitted to be made Members ; and to refuse such as they conceived not fit to be received into the fellowship of the Church , either for their ignorance or other sins and offences , and to cast such out of the Church , as through their malversation declared themselvs to be no beleevers : for the commission was only delivered unto the Apostles and Ministers , that they should admit whosoever beleeved and were baptized ; and they that beleeved not and would not be baptized , were not to be admitted . This Commission I affirme , was only given to the Apostles and Ministers , and it was and is that office that peculiarly belongeth unto them . And if we looke into the method of Gods dealing with his Church in all ages , under the Law and under the Gospell , both for the admitting of any into the Church as Members and Officers , or the casting out of any ; and to all the practice of the Prophets and Priests of the Old Testament , or the practice of John the Baptist and the blessed Apostles in the time of the New Testament ; we shall finde , that they that were admitted into the society and fellowship of the Church , were by the Ministers onely under both the Testaments received , and to them the people by God himselfe were sent , and they sent unto the people for this purpose . And for proofe of this I now say , I will first begin with the Old Testament , a few testimonies of the which may serve for the confirmation of that truth , as that of Malachi 2. ver . 4 , 5 , 6 , 7. And ye shall know that I have sent this my commandement unto you , that my covenant might be with Levy , saith the Lord of hosts . My covenant was with him of life and peace , and I gave them to him , for the fear wherewith he feared me , and was afraid before my Name . The law of truth was in his mouth , and iniquity was not found in his lips , he walked with me in peace and equity , and did turn many away from iniquity ; for the Priests lips shall keep knowledge , and they shall seek the Law at his mouth ; for he is the Messenger or Angel of the Lord of hosts . A sufficient testimony to prove , that the Ministers onely under the Old Testament had the power given them of admitting of any into the fellowship and communion of the Church , and that all the people were directed to them as the Messengers and Angels of the Lord of hosts , if they desired to be admitted into the Church . And so Ieremy and Ezekiel , as we read in the first chapters of both their Prophesies , and the same may be said of all the Prophets , they were sent unto the people . The people were to be directed by them , and the Prophets and Priests onely had that power delegated unto them , of proclaming both mercies and judgements , and of receiving into the Church such as should come unto them . And under the New Testament , in the third of Matthew , we finde Ierusalem and all Iudea , and all the regions round about Ierusalem , going out to Iohn the Baptist , and were baptized of him , and admitted into the Church by him alone , without the people ; and the substance of his Preaching , with his manner of admitting of members into the Church , and the conditions upon which he received them , and what the people did before their admission , is all fully set down in the third of Luke , and the seventh . And for the sum of his Preaching , it is said , verse the third , That it was the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins . And for those that came unto him , as the common people , the Publicans and the Souldiers , they all ask Iohn what they should do ? And after he had instructed them severally their duties , and told them upon what conditions they might be admitted , it is said in the seventh of Luke Verse 29. That all the people that heard him , and the Publicans justified God , being baptized with the Baptism of John : But the Pharisees and the Lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves , being not baptized of him , Verse 30. So that by Christs own testimony ( the Pharisees and Lawyers onely excepted ) all that came to him were baptized and admitted into the Church without the consent of the people . And so we finde in the Gospel of Saint Iohn , chap. 3. 4. yea , through the whole Book , That the people every where made their addresses to Iohn the Baptist , and to Christ and his Apostles onely ; and that as many as came to Christ unfainedly , were received by him , and his Apostles ; and none upon the offer of themselves , if they accepted of the conditions and were baptized , were ever refused . And we finde further , that when our Saviour had at any time clensed and cured the Lepers , he sent them to the Priests , for to be admitted by them into the communion of the Church , from which their noisome disease , as a type of sin , had for the time excluded them . As for Iohn Baptist ( saith my Brother Burton , Page 16. ) ( about whose gathering you have so bestirred your self before , and to as little purpose . ) You may observe , that those beleevers in Christ then to come , according to the Papists doctrine , were not formed into a Christian Church , or Churches , as after Christs resurrection the beleevers were . And when you come to visit those Christian Churches once constituted in their Gospel form by the Apostles , you shall finde , that the power of admitting , and rejecting or casting out of members , was not in the Apostles and Ministers alone , but in the Churches . For this , read 1 Cor. 5. where the whole Church of the Saints in Corinth , to whom Paul wrote , were to cast out the incestuous person ; as also , afterward upon his repentance , to re-admit him , 2 Cor. 2. 6 , 7. This one instance ( saith my Brother Burton ) is a sufficiens president for all Churches . Thus he . And this is all he hath to say there , concerning Iohn Baptist ▪ Now although I have formerly answered , and that in many places in the foregoing Treatise , to every several branch of this my Brother Burtons cavil ; and although it be nothing to the enervating of my Argument , as all understanding men will well preceive , if they duly consider it ; yet because I perceive by his whole discourse , the main designe both of himself , and all those of his faction ( that now trouble the world with their scribbling ) is to deceive , and delude silly souls , that they may the better bring all the Presbyters into the hatred of the people , as men Antichristian , and more then Prelatical , and as affecting a more lordly power over the people , then ever the Bishops exercised over them ; ( for this is the language all their Pulpits and Pamphlets speak : ) I say , in this regard , though I have often formerly fully answered to every branch of this cavil , I will here say something to it , for the better discovery of the vanity and triviality of the man : And that I may declare unto all men how little his asseverations are to be regarded . But I desire the Reader to take notice of his grolleries ( waving that slighting passage of his , where he saith , That I have so bestirred my self , and to so little purpose about John Baptists gathering , &c. ) And first , That he joyns here with the Papists in unchristianing and unchurching all those that were baptized by the Baptist : And so in this point he is a Papist . Secondly , That he makes the form of a Church , which he calls the Gospel form , to confist in excommunication . Thirdly , Take notice of his peremptory assertion , and in it , of an other notable error , where he saith , You shall finde , that the power of admitting and rejecting of members , was not in the Apostles and Ministers alone , but in the Churches . And for proof of these his grolleries he quotes , 1 Cor. 5. and 2 Cor. 2. 6 , 7. and makes the example of that Church to be bindingly presidential ( to use I. S. his Rhetorick ) to all Christian Churches : Whereas in his tenth page he tells me , We are necessarily to take all the Churches in the New Testament together , to make up one entire and perfect Church patern . These are his words there ; and yet here he makes the Church of Corinth to be a sufficient president for all Churches . So that every one of their Instances must be a sufficient patern to all other Churches ; and yet when I produced the example of the Church of Jerusalem , the Mother Church , for a patern of Government for all other Churches , he rejected it , affirming , that it was not a perfect patern . And in that his expression also , we may take notice of a parcel of good Divinity , where he makes the Church of Corinth , a more perfect Church then that at Ierusalem ; which not withstanding he sayes , was the first formed Church . Now if excommunication and discipline , as my Brother Burton sayes , be the Gospel form of a Church , and the Church of Jerusalem wanted that part of discipline , then it was not a formed Church ; but so he speaketh of it in the tenth page , where I observe a notable contradiction ( to usurpe his one Language : ) And here I leave him a while to reconcile it . But now to speak breifly by way of answer to these my Brother Burtons grolleries . First , Whereas he joyning with the Papists , unchristians and unchurches all those that were baptized by the Baptist , he is very erroneous in so doing , and dealeth most wickedly and unchristianly with all those glorious Saints ; for they were as good Christians and beleevers ; as he or any Independents in the world : As who all of them have Christs own testimony for their true faith in him , and their unfained repentance towards God , which are sufficient characters ever to make any people good Christians ; and of all them our Saviour saith , Luke 7. 29 , 30. That they justified God ; and rejected not his counsel against themselves , as the Pharisees and the Lawyers did ; that is ; all those that were baptized by the Baptist● repented , and beleeved in Christ , and imbraced the Promises ; and therefore , by our Saviours own witnesse , they were all good Christians as any in the new gathered Churches . And therefore , my Brother Burton as a notorious Papist , and a calumniator , ought to be reproved , especially by the seven new Churches which hold , That all that were baptized by Iohn the Baptist , were beleevers and good Christians . And this shall suffice to have spake to his first grollery . His second is , That he makes excommunication the form of a Church , as we may see page the twentieth of his Book , where answering unto my Argument ▪ by which I proved our Churches to be true Churches ▪ viz. Because the saving Truth of the Gospel of Iesus Christ was preached , received , and profest in our Churches . To the which Argument of mine , he there thus replyes . If you ( saith he ) mean the whole truth of Christ , it is well . But do not you know ( saith he ) that there dre three special visible marks of a true visible Church , The Gospel purely Preached , the Sacraments duly administred , and Discipline rightly practised ? All which marks to gather the Church of England ( for ought I know ) is yet to seek . So that by these words of my Brother Burton , it is manifest , That in his opinion the Gospel-Form of a Church is to have Discipline rightly Practised . So that where Discipline is wanting , by his learning , there is no true Gospel formed Church . But before I answer to this his grollery , I will say thus much to my Brother Burton , That Discipline rightly practised , is not one of the special visible marks of a true visible Church ; and that for these Reasons . First , Because the Holy Ghost who better knew the essential marks of a true visible Church , then my Brother Burton , yet he in setting them all down , omitting that of Discipline , saith , Acts 2. 42. That they continued stedfastly in the Apostles Doctrine , and Fellowship , and in breaking of Bread , and in Prayers : So that according to this unerring discription of the essential marks of a true visible Church ; Wheresoever the Gospel is truly Preached , and where the Sacraments are rightly administred , and where there is the true Invocation of God ( which is the third essential mark in Gods Dialect of a true visible Church ) there , there is a true Church , although there be no Discipline ; and therefore I gather , that Discipline though a most excellent Ordinance , and much to be desired , and had long since been obtained , had not the Ildependents hindred it , makes not for the esse but the bene esse of a Church . And I will ever beleeve the Holy Ghost in this point , rather then my Brother Burton . And withal , I will live and die in this opinion , That the Church of England is a true Church ( notwithstanding , whatsoever all the Sectaries can say to the contrary ) because in the Church of England , the Gospel is truly Preached , and the Sacraments are rightly Administred , and the Name of God is truly called upon ; all which , if they were sufficient to make the Church of Ierusalem a true formed Church , yea , and the first true formed Church , according to my Brother Burtons own learning , then they are sufficient to make the Church of England a true formed Church . But a second Reason to prove that Discipline rightly practised is not the forme of a church , is from my Brother Burtons owne words ; for hee everywhere saith , that the church of Ierusalem was a true formed church , and yet shee wanted that part of Discipline , of casting out corrupt Members ; so that Discipline there could not then be rightly practised , if that church wanted that part of Discipline , and if it were not there at all as hee saith ; and therefore for that marke it does not make for the esse of a church , and for the bringing in of a Gospel forme ( as is said before : ) and which is yet more , if excommunication be the Gospel forme of a true visible church then all the Synagogues in Ierusalem , in Saint Iohn the Baptists time were true formed churches after the Gospel forme ; for Synagogue and Church in the holy Scriptures are all one ; and in all the Synagogues they had excommunication , as in many places it is evident ; and for instance these , Iohn 9. 22. For the Iewes had argued already , that if any man did confesse hee was Christ hee should be put out of the Synagogue ; and in the fourtieth verse , in terminis it is said , that they cast out the young man , and in the twelfth chapter , verse 35. it is said there , that amongst the chiefe Rulers many beleeved in him , but because of the Pharisees they did not confesse him , lest they should bee put out of the Synagogue . Many places more to the same purpose might be produced to prove that there was that part of discipline even in the Synagogues , and that in Johns time , how●oever it was abused , as excommunication daily is amongst all the Sectaries at this day ; and if we duly weigh and consider all things , this part of discipline was taken from the Jewish Synagogues , and from them brought into all Christian Churches ; so that if that part of discipline be the Gospel forme of a true visible Church , or one of the essentiall markes of a true visible Church , as my Brother Burton saith , I shall not need to take a great journey from Ierusalem , and Iohn Baptists Churches , as my Brother Burton would have me goe to visit all the other Christian Churches , to find in them excommunication , that Gospel forme of a Church . I will leave that journey to their Itinerary Independent Predicants , who have nothing else to doe , and will content my selfe with the Christian Synagogues and Churches , amongst the which John Baptist and Christ himselfe both conversed , preached , and performed all the offices of true Pastors ; and in those Synagogues and Churches of Jerusalem , in all and every one of them I find the Gospel truly preached , the Sacraments rightly administred , and the name of God rightly called upon ; and all those essentiall marks made that Church a true formed Church after the New-Testament forme , if the Scripture and my Brother Burton may be beleeved ; and therefore I take notice of this as a speciall error in my Brother Burton , that hee makes excommunication the Gospel forme of a true Church , for which his tenent I beleeve he will find some moderate check or other from some of his brethren of the congregational way , who hold , that their particular explicite Covenant is the forme of the Church ; and this shall serve for answer to that second Grollery of my Brother Burton . His third Grollery is , that hee saith , that the power of admitting , and casting out Members , was not in the Apostles and Ministers alone , but in the Churches , which is a notable error in my Brother Burton , and Contrary unto many places of the holy Scripture : for God gave the Apostles and Ministers of the Gospel only the Keyes , Matth. 16. & Matt. 18. and Matth. 28. and they that had the Keyes , and were the Stewards of Gods family , could onely open and shut the doores to whom they pleased without the people : and we see that the Apostles onely in the second of the Acts without the people , received into the Church those three thousand first Converts ; yea , and received Paul into their Fellow-ship , contrary unto the Disciples and peoples mind , Acts 9. and wee know that Paul by his owne power did excommunicate and deliver to Satan Hymeneus , and Alexander , and others , 1 Tim. chap. 2. verse 1. and we learne in the second and third of the Revelation , that the Lord writing unto the Churches sends his Epistles to the Angels as the chiefe officers , and blames them for neglecting their duty , in not casting out those wicked ones that were amongst them : by all which testimonies , and many more that might be produced , it is sufficiently evident , that the Ministers only ought by themselves to manage the government of the Church , and that it is their peculiar office , and the place of the people to yeeld obedience to what they do : and even out of 2. Cor. 2. the same may be gathered where it is said , he was excommunicate by many not al. And therefore it is a marvellous great error in my brother Burton to conclude , because Paul writ to the church of Corinth for the casting out of the incestuous person , therefore the power and authority lay in the peoples hands , and not in the Apostles and Ministers alone : But these are the unsound conclusions that those of the congregationall way gather too too often from the holy Scripture for the ingratiating of themselves amongst the people , whom they pretend much to honour , in telling them , that they have a power and interest in the government , as well as the Ministers have , and that the Presbyterians challenge this to themselves joly , it is onely to inslave the people , and to Lord it over them , and that worse then the Prelates ; and for no other end I am most assured , did my Brother Burton bring in this cavill in opposition to my Argument : which not withstanding stands firme to prove that John the Baptist did by himselfe , and without the people execute his Commission , and receive Members into the Church , and that from his and the blessed Apostles examples , all other Ministers may take this example , and doe the same , and that by Gods owne appointment , as wee shall see more fully in the following Discourse ; and this shall suffice to have spake to this cavill also of my Brother Burton , and all the Grolleries of the same concerning the Baptist , and his gathering of churches . But now to goe on , after the Resurrection and Ascention of Christ , and that the Apostles had received the gifts of the Holy Ghost , and at their first entring upon their Ministry , had preached unto the people , and that the people were pricked in their hearts when they heard them , it is said that the people addressed themselves onely unto Peter , and the other Apostles , saying , Men and Brethren what shall wee do ? Then Peter said unto them , Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Iesus Christ for the remission of sins , and ye shall receive the gifts of the holy Ghost , &c. Act. 2. 23 , 24 ▪ then they that gladly received the word were baptized , and the same day were added unto them about three thousand soules . Here wee may observe these two things . The first that the Apostles by themselves alone , without the multitude or church admitted the people into the society and company of beleevers . Secondly , that in the execution of their commission , they did nothing but according to their warrant , and according to their injunction that was given unto them by Christ ; they propounded no other condition or termes for the making all and every one of them Members of the Church , but Baptisme and Repentance ; the which when the people had accepted of , they were forthwith admitted , and that upon their own word and testimony , without any more adoe , or further inquiry , concerning the soundnesse of their repentance , without any witnesse from others of their conversation , and without the voyce , allowance or approbation of the people ▪ or the multitude of beleevers in Jerusalem , much lesse of the whole Church , who were never joyned with the Apostles in their Commission , or consulted with by them , whether they should be admitted or no into the Fellowship of the faithfull , or demanded or asked by the people , whether it were not fit that they should take some time of further consideration , that they might walke with them , to the end that they might behold their conversation , and by their owne experience might further be confirmed , that their conversion was sound and well : Neither did any call for at their hands , that they should make a publicke confession of their faith to the Church , and give in their evidences to the Congregation , that they were converted really , or that they should take a private covenant , or enter into the Church by way of a peculiar covenant : nothing of all this specified : But it is onely related , that the people upon their being pricked in their hearts , applyed themselves unto the Apostles , and that the Apostles by their owne authority , and that power that was delegated unto them without reference to the Church or people , admitted them into the number of Beleevers . I expected in this place to have met with Generall Burton , or cavalier Hanserdo , Saint George his chaplaine , knowing what daring men they are , that they would have fought me here especially , and that they would have indeavoured with all their forces to have beate mee from this ground , a place so advantagious , that they that are Masters of it may bid defiance to the powerfullest , and potentest enemies of the truth : and indeed I did so much the more expect their incounter here , and that they would have given mee Battell , and that wee should have had a pitcht field for it , because they have ever pretended an interest in it ; yea , and challenge a right unto it , saying , that the church of Ierusalem is theirs , and which is more , they had by usurpation got this church into their hands , and had the possession of it , and having thus attained unto their designe , being backt with great friends , some Tobiasses and Sanballets , they began to build castles in the ayre , and made Fortifications in their braine , and laid a foundation in their phantasie , upon which they built an Independent Church , consisting of no more then could all meet in one place , to enjoy all acts of worship in Gods service , and pretended that this Church being the Mother-church , was to bee an example and paterne to all the Daughter-churches , and that all Churches through the world must be governed after that modell ; and being by the assistance of many Sanballats and Tobiesses much strengthened , as I said before , they began to insult , and to give Lawes of government to all Churches , and to gather and set up churches after their owne modell , and being much assured of their owne strength , they bad defiance to the whole world , flinging and casting their Gloves to all their enemies assembled and not assembled ; whereupon I being a Commander in the Presbyterian Army , and taking up the Glove came out against them , and by divine assistance reduced this place , and tooke it from them which they had sometime unjustly detayned from the Presbyterians , to whom indeed it belonged by the right of inheritance and succession : I say I having by conquest taken this strong citie from the Independent Vsurpers , that now labour to mannage all government by sea and land , in church and state , pretending they are Saints , and that the Saints must governe the world ; and being in the possession of it , I expected that those two confiding Commanders , Saint Hanserdo , valiant and venerable old Henry being so compleatly armed as he was , with his sword , and Phocions Hatchet , and with his great white basket-hilted beard , that both of them assisted also with I. S. would have come out in battell against me , and would not have left the field , as Van Trump lately left the sea , especially seeing in their march they all passed by the church of Ierusalem , and having also so great an advantage against mee , they being three to one , which makes mee conceive that they are all , either desperate cowards , or terribly treacherous , and in that regard are not fit to be Generals and Commanders any longer in so great an Army as that of the Ill-dependents ; yea , this their declining Battell with mee makes me boldly conclude of them , that they deale unmanly on all sides : for if the church of Ierusalem be theirs , and that they have any interest in it , or a right unto it , why did they not now ingage themselves in her quarrell , and fight for her , especially when all their Army lay in the field ? certainly it had beene much for all their honours now to have shewen their valour : and therefore , they all of them not striking a stroke , proclaime unto all the world their want , both of animosity , and all heroicall vertue , and their want also of honesty , in that they pretend a right unto that they have no just title or clayme to , and for which they dare not fight , in that they amuse the people , and stirre up factions on every side , and all to strengthen their owne party , for the making of a groundless combustion in Church & State , telling the people that they have power and interest in the government of the Church , and that authority and jurisdiction only belongeth unto the Presbyters , which they ought alwayes to exercise in the name of the Church , and thereupon they perswade them , that if they relinquish this their right unto the Presbyters , they will more Lord it over them then ever the Prelates did ; and they teach them farther , that this right is derived unto them from the example of the Church of Ierusalem , and the other Primitive Churches , who when they were cast into a Gospel forme , as they say , the Apostles and Ministers had not the sole power of governing them , but the people also were joyned with them , and that they are all of them to have their voices , both in electing of officers , and in receiving in of Members , and casting out of any offenders as well as the Presbyters and Ministers , and wish all the people to stand and continue in that liberty wherein Christ hath made them free ; these and such like unsound Principles they season the people with , for the inraging of them against the Presbyters , and take all occasions to pervert the holy Scripture , for the maintenance of their new-found way of Independency , and labour continually by shifts and juglings to evade the dint of any Arguments that are brought against them , for the proving that the power of government in the church resideth in the Presbyters and Ministers hands , both for the admission of Members , and the casting of them out , as it did in the hands of Iohn Baptist and the Apostles , and Disciples , who onely had the authority with the Keyes committed unto them by God himselfe , and who onely exercised it in their dayes , as by innumerable examples may be proved , as by that of Iohn the Baptist , and the Apostles in the church of Ierusalem , which latter example , both my brother Burton , and J. S. passe by with great silence , wherein they deale most dishonestly , as I shall by and by make appeare . But for the example of Iohn the Baptist , my brother Burton set upon that at first , pretending to the people , that the example of Iohns gathering in of people by his sole authority was not binding , because as hee saith it was extraordinary , and that the Churches and Assemblies gathered by him were not formedinto Christian Churches , these are his words , page 16. and that those Churches onely which were put into a Gospel forme after Christs Ascension are to bee a paterne of government unto all christian churches to the end of the world ; and he saith , if we visit them , wee sh●ll find that in them the power of admitting and rejecting Members was not in the Apostles and Ministers alone ; and for an instance of this hee bringeth in the Church of Corinth , 2 Cor. 2. which hee saith is a sufficient President to all churches : and thereupon concludes , and so perswades the people , that the example of Iohn the Baptist in receiving in and admitting of Members by his sole authority , cannot bee an example & patern to the Ministers under the Gospel to do the same ; and therefore labours with all his power to evade the dint of that Argument by such turnings and evasions as these , telling the people , That those Congregations that were gathered by him , not being in a Gospel-Form , nor moulded up after the New Testament form , cannot be bindingly presidential ; and therefore for our imitation , he affirms , we must necessarily come to the Christian Churches constituted by the Apostles , after Christs Ascension ; as that one for example , the Church of Corinth , in which , saith my Brother Burton , The people had authority of admitting and rejecting members , as well as the Apostles and Presbyters ; and therefore , those primitive and Apostolike Churches onely , are to be a patern of imitation to all Christians and Ministers of governing by , and not that of the Baptist ; and by this their craft and juggling , and by these fallacious means and unwarrantable wayes , my Brother Burton , Hanserdo Knollys , and I. S. with all the fraternity of the Ill-dependent Predicants , having prepossest the people with a prejudicate opinion against their faithful Ministers , as if they affected a lordly power over them , and more then Prelatical : They have , I say , by this craft so infatuated them , that there is scarse left an ear open in many of them to hear the just defence of the Presbyterians , or an eye to see or read what they can say for themselves , and against all their calumnies ; which wickednesse and deceitful dealing of the Ildependents itinetary Preachers is unexcusable . But because my Brother Burton not onely carps at the example of Iohn the Baptist , but likewise at those I brought of the Eunuch , of Paul , of Cornelius , of Lydia , and of the Goaler , Mr. Knollys also joyning with him in this good service and skirmish ; the which after that both himself and Absurdo Know-lesse ( for so he may truly be called ) had spent their breath and strength to evade , and yet perceiving evidence of truth in them so apparently perspicuous , as it dazzled their eyes , they cry out , that those were extraordinary examples , and not binding , because those being baptized , were not admitted or received members into any particular Church , but into the Catholike visible Church ; and therefore , say they , those examples are not for our imitation , we look onely for the example of such Churches as were cast into a Gospel-Form , and into the mould of the New Testament-Form . Now , what a heighth of wickednesse is it in these men , thus to trifle for the deluding of the simple people , and to pretend unto them , that there are divers wayes of admitting of members into Christs Church ? one way of admitting members into the Catholike visible Church , and another of admitting members into a particular Church , when in truth there is no difference ; for he that is a member of any particular Church , is a member of the Catholike , and so on the contrary , as by the examples both ordinary and extraordinary by me produced , is sufficiently apparent ; for they were all admitted after one and the same way ; and I had two examples of receiving in members into Churches constituted after the New Testament Form ; as that of Jerusalem and Damaseus , both Churches according to the Gospel-Form ; and there were there three thousand received members at one time in the church of Jerusalem , without any of those conditions they require at their members hands ; and Paul also was received a member of the Church of Damascus , upon the same terms that all the rest were ; and therefore the example is bindingly presidential : And these two examples are taken no notice of , but are passed by ; and all the other counted extraordinary by them : And the people by this means are deluded and miserably abused . Now can there be a greater imposture or deceit in any that pretend unto Religion and honesty , then that in these men ? When they say in their writings upon all occasions , produce us some examples of Churches according to the New Testament Form , wherein any members were admitted by the Ministers sole authority , and without the consent of the people , and without those conditions we require of all such as are to be admitted members into our Churches , and then you do some thing ? Can there , I say , be a greater deceit in any men , then this of theirs , to make the people beleeve that there hath never been any such example produced ; when notwithstanding I had set that example of the Church of Jerusalem , and that of Damascus , both constituted after the Gospel-Form before their eyes ? in both of which , their members were admitted by the sole and alone authority of the Ministers of those Churches , without the consent of the people , or without any of those requisites they now demand of their members in all their new gathered Churches ; By which their proceedings , they make themselves guilty before God , and all men of indirect dealing , and of withholding the Truth from the people in unrighteousnesse ; and manifestly declare unto the world , that they are resolved against all the Light of the Truth , obstinately to persist in their erroneous wayes , which is the greatest height of impiety and wickednesse in the world , and no lesse then to resist the Spirit of God : For if there had been but the least dram of candor and fair dealing in them , they would never have uttered such words ; and had there been but any Christian honesty , and love to the peace of the Church in them , they would not have passed by the Church of Ierusalem , and that of Damascus unsaluted , and without taking any notice of them , and fell upon the examples of the Eunuch Cornelius , Lydia , and the Goaler , and then pretend that they were extraordinary . But that all men may see my fair dealing with them , and ( if it be possible ) that I may undeceive the deluded people , I will in this place to gratifie my Brother Burton , and Absurdo Know-lesse , set before their eyes the examples of the two Mother Churches in their Gospel-Form : viz. that of Ierusalem & Samaria , that so by the mouth of two witnesses , the Truth may the better be confirmed . Now , because they took no notice of the Church of Ierusalem in my former Book , but passe it by as not worth the regarding , I shall desire them at this time , and all those that read this Book , duly to consider how members were admitted there , not onely at one time , but always : And I shall desire them likewise , seriously to weigh the practice of that Church in the admitting of their members : the example of which , according to their doctrine , must ever be followed and imitated . And because my Brother Burton says , That the other Churches also are to be taken in for the making up of a compleat patern , I will produce two other formed churches after the New Testament Form among the Gentiles , and them eminent ones , that there may be no want of witnesses ; for the confirming us in the right way of gathering Churches , and for the receiving in of members . First therefore I shall intreat the Reader to look into the second chapter of the Acts where he shall finde at the first admi●sion there were three thousand souls taken in and made Members of that Church by the sole power of the Apostles , and where the people had no voice in the admission of them : neither was it required that they should walk sometime in fellowship with them , that they might have experience of the truth of their conversion ; neither was it required of them that they should make every one of them a publike confession of their faith , and bring in the evidences of their conversion , or that they should enter into a particular explicite Covenant , or that they should have the consent of the whole Church ; nothing of all this was required there ; neither had the people any hand in the admitting of them , but the Apostles by themselves and by their sole authority managed the whole business ; for those that were converted and pricked in their hearts applying themselves unto the Apostles said , Men and Brethren what shall we do ; and the conditions upon which they admitted them upon their repentance were these onely ; beleeve and be baptized in the Name of our Lord Jesus ; the blessed Apostles were not acquainted with our new modell , nor with the conditions of the new Congregations . But by the way let me tell the Illdependents that the Apostles and Disciples had then a just ground of making such conditions , if ever any had ; for they might with great reason have said , howsoever these souls be not miracle proof , but that they are wounded to the heart by them , and by the Sermon of Peter ; yet we are not by and by to confide in them and to admit them into church fellowship , unlesse they will walk some time with us that we may have experience of the truth of their conversion ; and unlesse also they will make all and every one of them a publike and particular confession of his faith , and bring in the evidences of their conversion , and enter also into a particular explicite covenant for observing all the Laws of membership , and that they come in by the generall consent and approbation of the church . I say if ever there was a time that these conditions might have been required by any , it might then especially have been , because all those had had their hand in crucifying of the Lord of life , as Peter told them ; and therefore they might all be well suspected that howsoever for the present they were all struck into a trembling condition , yet that they could not judge upon so short a time of the soundnesse of their conversion , and therefore they might well have urged all the former conditions , and chiefly because they had our Saviours own example freshly before their eyes in the second of John where it is related that he would not commit himselfe unto men which had been convinced by his miracles , although they beleeved in him ; so that I say in that regard , when Christ would not commit himselfe unto them , the Apostles and Disciples might much more have pretended in all these regards that they had no reason to confide in these men until they had had better experience of them for the truth of their conversion . But when neither the Apostles nor none of all the Disciples so much as urged any conditions upon them beyond the commission given them by Christ ; to wit , Repentance , Faith and Baptism : the example of this church is for ever binding to all churches , that they in the admission of their Members should do the same , and they that propound other conditions do no lesse then accuse the Apostles of injustice and imprudency , as of taking that authority into their own hands from the people , and of so suddenly and without any deliberation admitting of Members into church-fellowship which ought , according to my brother Burtons doctrine , ever to be done with great caution , who saith in his 14. Page Multa cautela non nocet ; adding moreover that in things weighty we cannot be too wary , in regard they look not so much at circumstances in conversion as the substance ; and in regard also there ought to be a provident care for preventing inconveniences and scandalls ; seeing turpius ejici●ur quam non admittitur hospes , it is easier for a guest to be kept out then to be cast out ; by all which his expressions and by their dayly practice they do no lesse then proclame unto the world that the Apostles took too much upon them and were not so prudent in the admission of Members into church-fellowship and communion as they should have bin : for if they did not accuse the practice of all the Apostles of deficiency , why do they not follow their examples ? and why do they impose new laws of admitting of Members and other conditions , then either Christ the King of his church , God blessed for ever , or his holy Apostles did ? Which whether or no it be not one of the presumptuous and blasphemous wickednesses , both in the Ministers and the people that exercise this new Government , that ever was in the world , I leave it to the judgement of all consciencious and solid Christians . This one example in the church of Ierusalem might be a sufficient president for all churches imitation for ordinary admission of Members into church-fellowship . But I will produce other admissions in the same church , that there may be no want of witnesses to corroborate this truth . In the last verse of the second chapter , besides this first admission , in terminis it is said there , that the Lord added dayly unto the Church such as should be saved . Here we finde additions of Members upon additions ; for they were dayly added ( saith the Scripture ) and that by the Lord and King of his Church Iesus Christ , and that upon the former conditions ; for we learn of no other : viz. of repenting , beleeving and being baptized : Here we finde nothing of walking sometime before their admission , here is nothing of publike confession of their faith , nothing of bringing in of the evidences of their conversion , nothing of a particular explicite Covenant , nothing of the consent of the Church ; the Lord Jesus whiles the Government of his church , whose yoke was easie and his burthen light , lay upon his shoulders , and as long as the rule lay in his own hands , and before it came to my brother Burtons fine white fingers , ( which he saith in his learned Epistle that some of his friends would not have him foule with me ) I say whiles the Government of Christs Church lay in his own hands , and before it came to my brother Burtons fingers , and into the paws and clutches of those of the congregationall way ; all Christs Disciples and pretious ones were admitted into church-fellowship without that heavy burthen of those conditions they have most arrogantly brought into the Church of God ; by which in as much as in them lies they have not only put the whole world in a combustion , but most blasphemously dis ▪ throned Christ , preferring their own vain traditions before his most holy Laws , and doing all in the Churches name , and inslaved his people , whiles notwithstanding they pretend they set up Christ , upon his Throne , and they preach the liberty of the Gospell unto the people , which is most impiously to juggle on all sides . But now to go on to the other presidents of admitting Members in that Church . In the fourth chapter we have it recorded , verse 4. that many of them which heard the Word beleeved , and the number of the men was about five thousand : And all these were admitted into church fellowship and into the Communion of the Saints , and that by vertue of their beleeving Repentance and Baptism , as the Scripture relateth . Here is nothing recorded of walking any time , for they were suddenly admitted , here is nothing of a publike conf●ssion of their faith , nothing of bringing in the evidences of their conversion , nothing of an explicite particular Covenant , not a word of the consent of the people . And yet this was the first formed Church after the New Testament Forme ; by all which it doth sufficiently appear , that all ▪ the practice and prattle of the new gathered Churches hath neither precept nor president for it in the Mother Church . But it is not amisse to produce an example or two more , omitting many through the Acts. In the fifth chapter , upon the sudden and miraculous death of Ananias & Saphira , and through the other wonders and miracles that were wrought , it is said ▪ that beleevers were the more added unto the Lord , multitudes both of men and women : that is to say , many more Congregations and Assemblies of beleevers were added to the Lord and admitted to be Members of that Church ; And all these also were admitted to be Members by the Apostles sole authority , and that as soon as they offered themselves to be entertained without any of those conditions they now require in their new gathered Churches : And yet let me tell the Independents by the way , that at this time also the Apostles and Disciples might have challenged a right to have propounded those conditions , if they might at any time have been urged upon the people : for they might have suspected , that this suddain conversion proceeded more from the miracles then from any sound conviction of them from the conscience of their sinne : And therefore they might have urged that it was now very fit that they should propound some other conditions of admission then they had formerly imposed upon them ; and that it was requisite and convenient that they should now walk sometime in church-fellowship with them , that they might have more & better assurance of their real and true conversion , and that they ought therefore before their admission be urged to make all and every one of them a particular confession of their faith , and bring in the evidences of their conversion , and enter into a particular explicite Covenant for the better preserving of Church Communion ; especially they seeing now before their eyes a president of so grosse hypocrisie and false dealing in Ananias and Saphira , and what a consternation came upon the whole church by it , and by the which also God was so much displeased : therefore I say in all these regards they might then with very good reason , if at any time , have urged all those conditions , and withall they might well have added , that they should not be admitted without the consent of the whole church , of all which when there is no mention , it is abundantly evident that they were received into church communion without them and that by the sole authority of the Apo●tl●s , which is left for a rule for all other churches to the end of the World of admitting Members after the same manner ; which when the Independents in all their new gathered churches dayly swarve from in their admission of Members , they are in their so doing prevaricators both against the precept of Christ the King of his church , and against the example of the blessed Apostles , and against the example of the church at Ierusalem , which was the first formed church after the New Testament Forme ; by which practice of theirs they make themselves offenders in an elevated nature . Now I will adde one example more of ordinary admission of Members , and that in the same Church , chap. 6. it is said , verse 7. that the Word of God increased , and the number of Disciples multiplyed in Jerusalem greatly , and a great company of the Priests were obedient to the faith . All these also were by the Apostles sole authority admitted Members of that Church : And here likewise the Apostles and Disciples might upon very good ground have urged the imposing of new conditions of admitting Members , if they might at any time have done it , in regard of those Pri●sts , for they were notoriously knowne to have beene Christs enemies in his life and death , and ●ad a great stroke in his crucifying , and therefore if the Disciples were affraid of Paul , as it is rel●ted in the ninth chapter , because hee had persecuted the Church , and in that regard were unwilling that hee should be a joynt Member with them , they had very good warrant here of being affraid of this great company of Priests , and might therefore have desired that they might not bee admitted Members into Church-fellowship , till they had walked some time with them , that they might have some testimonies of their true conversion , and that they might also for the satisfying of the whole Church , every one of them make a particular confession of their faith , and bring in the evidences of their conversion , and enter into a particular explicite Covenant , and be received in by the consent of the whole church ; all these things I say they might have urged with great authority , and have beene as well affraid of these Priests as they were of Paul : Now in that the Apostles admitted here of all those Priests , as they did of Paul , Acts 9. by their sole authority , and without their either walking with them in Fellowship some time , or without a publicke confession of their faith , or bringing in their evidences of their conversion , or without a particular explicite Covenant , or without the consent of the people ; I say in all these regards it is manifest to all such as will not put out their owne eyes , that all the Independents that impose other Lawes upon the people in their admission of Members into Church-fellowship with them , are Trangr●ssors in a high degree against both the command and example of Christ , who admitted of all that came to him , and refused none , and against the example of all the holy Apostles , and against the practice of the Mother Church , and the first formed Church after the New Testament Form ; and therefore , I will be bold to say thus much , That all those Ministers and people of the Congregational by-path , that shall notwithstanding all that I have now set before them out of the good Word of God , still persist in their unwarrantable practices against both the prec●p● and president of Christ , the King of his Church , and of all his bl●ss●d Apostles , they will be found fighters against God ; and i● they do not all of them , that have had their hand in these unwarrantable proceedings , speedily repent , and relinguish th●se the●● r●bellious courses , they will highly provoke the Lord & King of his Church , to come out in wrath and indignation against them . And who knows but as he let the devil loose upon the sons of Sceva , those exorcists , for abusing his Authority , and using his N●m● for all their wicked dealings , I say , who knows but the righteous and just God may in like manner , if they will still persist & go on in these wicked and ungodly courses , to seduce his people , and pretend that they have authority from him , for their preaching and practising of all these things , notwithstanding they have neither precept nor example for them in all the holy Word of God , that he may in justice let the devil loose upon them , for the beating of them all out of their TUBS ? Certain I am , they by all these their dealings , highly provoke the Lord to jealousie , and that daily ; so that if the Christian Magistrates do not take some speedy course for the vindicating of Gods Honor , I do verily beleeve , the Lord will from Heaven shew some fearful judgement upon this whole Kingdom , and visit it with so many plagues , and such sore calamities , as all the Inhabitants thereof , will desire , & wish , that the Mountains may fall upon them , and the Hills cover them from the presence of the Lamb , and from him that sitteth upon the Throne ; the which , that they may not happen upon this Nation , shal be my daily & constant prayer . And this shal serve to have spake concerning the Church of Ierusalem , the first formed Church , and concerning the ordinary admission of members in it . I will now come to the Church of Samaria , and that of Corinth , and Ephesus , all formed Churches , according to the Gospel-Form , and briefly shew how members were admitted into them all , and by whom , and upon what conditions ; that all men may see there is no want of presidents to convince the Ildependents of their Grolleries . In the eighth of the Acts it is related there , that through the miracles of Philip , and through his preaching the things concerning the Kingdom of God , and the Name of Iesus Christ , they were baptized , both men and women , from the greatest to the least , Verse 10 , 12. And were all admitted unto Church-fellowship , and that by Philips sole authority ; and this his method of gathering of Churches , was ratified by the authority of the Apostles , Peter and Iohn , and the whole Colledge of the Apostles at Ierusalem . And this was a true formed Church after the New Testament Form : For in this Christ himself had planted a Church , and converted many , as it is at large set down in the fourth Chapter of the Gospel of Saint Iohn ; and here it is said , That the people with one accord , gave heed unto those things that Philip spake , and that there was great joy in that City , Verse 6 , 8. And that they were all baptized both men and women . Here we have neither any walking required at their hands , for he better assurance , either of Philip or the Church , of the soundnesse of their conversion : Here is no publike confession of their faith required before their admittance into Church-fellowship : Here is no evidences of their conversion called for : Here is no particular explicite covenant demanded of them : Here is no consent of the people desired before their admission into Church communion , and yet this was a Church established according to the Gospel-form . So that according to the practice of the two Mother churches in Iudea , and Israel , all beleevers were admitted members , and received into Church-fellowship , without the conditions those of the Congregational way now require of all those of their new gathered Churches : Whether therefore it be not a high presumption and arrogancy in all the Independents , to slight the Laws of Christ , the King of his Church , and the example of Christ himself , and the example of all the blessed Apostles , I leave it to the judgement of all prudent and advised Christians . I will now to satisfie my Brother Burtons desire , visit some Churches of the Gentiles , formed according to the New Testament Form ; and I will first in this visitation , begin with that Church which he himself hath set before all Churches for a patern of imitation , viz. the Church of Corinth . In the eighteenth of the Acts it is recorded , that when Silas and Timothy were come unto Paul to Corinth , the Jewes refusing to receive the Gospel of Iesus Christ , that hee shooke his rayment against them , and said unto them your blood be upon your own heads , I am cleare , from hence-forth I will goe unto the Gentiles , and departing thence , hee entred into ones house named Iustus , one that worshipped God , and preaching the Gospel there , it is said , that Crispus a chiefe Ruler of the Synagogue , beleeved on the Lord with all his house , and many of the Corinthians hearing , beleeved , and were baptized . Here wee see in a Church put into a Gospel forme , the Members of that church were admitted by the sole authority of Saint Paul , and that barely upon their hearing and beleeving ; for the Apostle required no other conditions of them for their admission into church Fellowship , hee said not unto those many that were baptized , that before they could be made Members of that church they must walke some time with the church , that they might have experience of the truth of their conversion ; neither did he injoyn them for satisfaction of the people , to make a publicke confession of their faith , or to bring in the evidences of their conversion , or to enter into any particular explicite covenant , or to have the consent of the whole church , nothing of all this did Paul require of the Corinthians in this church after the Gospel forme ; but following Christ the Kings commission upon their Faith , Repentance , and Baptisme , hee hy his owne and sole authority admitted them . The same way of admitting of Members wee shall find in the Church of Ephesus , as it is at large to be seene in the nineteenth chapter of the Acts , where the manner of admission of Members there is fully set downe , and that was a Church also my Brother Burton sets downe amongst those that must be brought in for the making up of a compleate paterne , now in all those Churches they were all admitted upon Christs owne termes , and by the Apostles and Ministers sole authority , without either walking sometime with the Church , or without any publicke confession of their faith to the Congregation , or bringing in their evidences , or entring into any private explicite Covenant , or without the consent of the people . How unsufferable a thing ▪ therefore is it now then in all those of the congregationall way , to demand other conditions of all their Members before they can be admitted into Church-fellowship with them , then those that Christ the King of his Church , and all his blessed Apostles demanded ? If this be not the highest point of presumption that was ever heard of , I leave it to the consideration of the very ruggedest Independents upon due deliberation , desiting they may all seriously lay it to heart , and timely repent of it : for if they doe not they will indeed be found fighters against God , and dis-throners of Christ the King , when they shall slight both his Lawes and example , and the example of his blessed Apostles , and the practise of all those glorious Gospel formed Churches , and set up new Lawes and examples of gathering Churches , and of admitting of Members , whereas in all the New Testament wee have but one way of admitting of Members , whether in an ordinary way , or an extraordinary ; for they that are made Members of any particular Church , by vertue of that they are made Members of the Catholike , and those likewise that are made Members of the Catholike Church , may by vertue of their admission into it , be Members in any particular Church , as I shall prove by the Independents owne Principles . And as for the ordinary way of admitting of Members , I have proved it from the fore-going examples , and the Primitive practise , that it was upon condition onely of Repentance , Faith , and Baptisme , and Christ required no more ; and for the extraordinary way if it bee evinced that that was after the same manner , and upon no other conditions , then all men may see into what a desperate condition of Rebellion all the Independents have by their new wayes plunged themselves into , and may withall well perceive the vanity of all those cavils my Brother Burton , and Master Knollys made against my following Arguments . Now that they may see how , and upon what conditions all Christians were admitted into the catholicke visible Church , it will be worth their paines to looke upon the practice of the holy Ministers of the Gospel , both Evangelists and Apostles , who were all directed in what they did , by the speciall command of Christ himselfe ; And therefore farre more worthy of imitation then our Independents practises ▪ Now we may take notice , that when the Angel appeared unto Cornelius , in the tenth of the Acts , hee sent him unto Ioppa , to call for one Simon , whose surname was Peter ; hee did not send him unto the Church in Joppa . And it is related that when Peter came to Cornelius , and that hee had recited unto him the manner of the vision , and that hee was commanded by the Angell to send for him ; it is further also declared what Peter there did , and that he said , of a truth J perceive that God is no respecter of persons , but in every Nation , hee that feareth him , and worketh righteousnesse is accepted with him . And after a Sermon made unto Cornelius , and all that were assembled there with him ; It is said , that the holy Ghost fell on all them that heard the Word , and that all the beleevers that came with Peter , were astonished at it , for they heard them speake with divers tongues , and magnified God. Then answered Peter , can any man forbid water that these men should not bee baptized , which have received the Holy Ghost as well as wee ? And hee commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Here wee see first , that Peter was sent unto , and not the Church : Secondly , that he admitted Cornelius and those that were with him into the number of beleevers , and into the fellow-ship of the Church by his owne authority , and never consulted with the Church to aske their leave or voyce , but concludes the busines with an interrogation , which hath a greater force of binding that no man ought to hinder any beleever from comming into the society of the church and communion of Saints , in whom the graces of Gods spirit evidently appeare , as in these ; so that if either the Ministers come into their houses , or they goe into the Ministers and make sufficient testimony by themselves of their faith , and that they feare God , of what nation soever they bee , they are by the Ministers to bee admitted ; the congregation hath nothing to doe to hinder any such , nay , they may not , it is more than belongs unto them ; neither did those that came with Peter intermeddle in that busines , or require a covenant at their hand , or a publik confession of their faith . Againe , when the Lord of his infinite mercy was purposed to reveale himselfe unto the Eunuch in the 8. of the Acts , he sendeth Philip the Evangelist unto him , whom hee found reading in his chariot , the prophesie of Jsaiah , and after that hee had interpreted unto him that prophesie , and preached unto him Iesus and Baptisme in his name it is related , that when they came unto a certaine water , the Eunuch said unto him , what doth hinder me to be baptized ? and Philip said , if thou beleevest with all thine heart , thou maist : And hee answered and said , J beleeve that Iesus Christ is the Sonne of God : and hee commanded the chariot to stand still and they went downe both into the water , both Philip and the Eunuch , and hee baptized him . Here wee see that Philip and not the church was sent unto the Eunuch , and that Philip by his owne authority , and upon the Eunuch his owne testimony , without any reference unto any church , or without consulting with any Congregation , admits him into the number of beleevers , and makes him a member of the church , and here was neither a publicke confession required of him by any of the church , or any Covenant exacted by the people : and so when Saul in the 9. of the Acts was fallen downe out of astonishment , and afterwards was converted as the Storie there fully declareth the whole manner of it , the Lord sent one Ananias a Disciple , and Minister unto him ; hee did not send the church unto him , neither did Ananias when hee came to Saul , say unto him , I will consult with the church to see whether they will admit thee to be a member , for thou hast greatly wasted the church , and made havocke of the Saints , and therefore I will have their approbation and consent , and I will have thee first walke with the Church some time , that they may behold thy conversation , and then thou shalt make a confession of thy faith publickly before the Congregation , and give in thy evidences of the truth of thy conversion , and enter in a private and solemne covenant , and so be received and admitted . But without all this adoe he baptizes Paul and admitteth him into the number of beleevers , and makes him a member of this formed Church , & that by his sole authority , and he was received immediatly among the Disciples at Damascus without any reluctation , or so much as any scruple , and strait-way hee preached Christ in the Synagogue that hee was the Son of God ; hee was both ordained and put in office without the approbation and consent of the people , who knew nothing of the busines , but onely stood amazed , and said , Is not this hee that destroyed them which called on this name in Ierusalem , and came hither for that intent , that hee might bring them bound unto the high Priest ? The Ministers in those dayes when they were all taught of God , they only admitted Members by their owne authority into the church , without the approbation of the people ; but in these our dayes , wherin people have gotten itching eares , and teachers after their owne humours ( such as S. Paul speaks of in his Epistles to Timothy ) they teach a new doctrine , and bring forth new borne lights , to the darkening of truth it selfe , and to the bringing in a confusion of all things . See what Saint James saith in his fifth chapter to all churches and christians in the world , Is any man sicke , saith hee ? let him send for the Presbyters of the churches , and let them pray over him , &c. and the prayer of faith shall save the sicke , and the Lord shall raise him up , and if he have committed sins , they shall be forgiven him . The Apostle Iames here sends all christians to the Presbyters of every church , who had the power of the Keyes delegated unto them for spirituall comfort , and whose office onely it was to pronounce pardon and remission of sinnes unto the sicke upon their true Repentance , if they had offended and sinned against God in the time of their health , and so scandalized the Gospel and the Church ; and it was the Presbyters place and office to admit them againe into the fellowship and communion of the Saints upon their co●diall and untained repentance , and that without asking the church any leave ; for as the Presbyters onely had the power of casting out offenders out of the Church , so they onely had the authority of receiving them in againe upon their repentance , and not the Church ; so if wee looke into all those Epistles that were written unto the seven Churches of Asia , in the 2. and 3. of the Revelations , we shall find them all directed to the Angels of the seven Churches , which is as much as to say , to the presidents of every severall Presbytrie established and constituted in every one of those Churches ; which is a sufficient Argument to me , to prove a Counsell or Colledge of godly Ministers in every one of those cities , according to that of Paul to Titus , chap. 1. verse 5. for this cause left I thee in Creet that thou shouldest ordaine Presbyters in every Citie , not one but many . And in the 14. of the Acts , verse 23. and when they had ordained them Presbyters in every Church , &c. many Presbyters , a Colledge of them was appointed to every Church : and so in the 20. of the Acts , there were many Presbyters who had the charge and government of that Church committed unto them in common , ver . 28. there was a Colledge of them constituted in that church , and therefore for order sake ( which the light of nature teacheth ) they must have a President , who by the way of excellencie , and to distinguish him from the other , is called an Angel , as the inscription of the Epistle , Rev. 12. 1. declares , saying , Vnto the Angel of the Church of Ephesus . As in our dialect , when we speake of the great counsell of the Kingdome , or of the reverend assembly of Divines , if there be occasion of distinguishing the Presidents of those councels from the other Judges in those assemblies , wee say , Master Speaker in the house of Lords or Commons ; or of the President of the Ministers , we say , Master Prolocutor ; and if any have occasion to write to either houses or to the Assembly , they direct their letters to the Speakers , or to the Prolocutor , who communicates them to each Assemblies , as being the Presidents of each Society , and yet none of all these Presidents by that their place of honour and eminency have any more power or authority then the rest , but onely in the casting voyce when the parties upon any occasion are for number equall , and for appoynting of the times and places of meeting , and for the methodicall and orderly carriage of the busines ; yea , it is ever observed , wheresoever there is a President , there is a colledge or councell , or a court ; nature dictates this , and the custome of all nations proves it : and withall , by the same light of reason that counsell or colledge to whom God himselfe writes and directs his letters for redressing of abuses , has the power in their hands for the rectifying of things amisse , and that it peculiarly belongeth unto them , as to the Magistrates invested with authority , to order things according to direction , and to punish and cast out offenders ; and that by their own power , without the consent and approbation of the people , as it is now in the great Councell and Parliament of the Kingdome ; who make not the people acquainted with what they have to do , but so far as it pleaseth themselves , and not out of any duty : And so it was in the government of Gods Church by the first constitution , every Church consisting of many congregations , were governed by a colledge of Presbyters , as that of Ierusalem , and this of Ephesus , and the other six Churches ; in all the which the Presbyters by their sole authority governed them according to Gods Word , without taking the people into councell with them , who were no where joyned in commission with them : and therefore it is most apparent by those examples I have now produced , and many more that might be added ; and from the commission that Christ gave to the Apostles , and in them to all Ministers , that the people had not their voices , either for the admitting of any to be Members in any church , or in the casting out of any for their delinquency , much lesse have they authority to require a publike confession of their faith to be made unto the congregation , or to exact of them to bring in the evidences of their true conversion , or to require that they should walk with them some time before admission , or to enter into a solemn private Covenant before they be admitted as Members , for we have no president for any of these things in Gods Word , much lesse any command , only in Acts the sixt , there is mention made , that the Apostles for the freeing of themselves from all unnecessary incombrances , and that they might the better attend upon their Ministery and preaching , gave the people liberty to make choice of their own Deacons , but still keeping the power of ordaining them in their own hand , which always was arbitrary in them whether they would exercise it or no , neither would the Apostles have ordained them , unlesse those that were to be ordained , had been men so qualified as they had appointed ; for otherwise , it lay in their choyce whether they would ordain them or no. But that ever the congregation or people had the power of admitting of members , or of ordaining of Officers , it is no where extant in Gods Word : But that the women should have a voice in the Church , either for receiving in , or casting out of members or officers , or should have any thing to do with Peters Keys , it is against the law of God and nature : For Paul in the first Epistle to the Corinths , 14. makes it one of the marks of confusion in any Church where women have their voices , saying , God is not the Author of confusion , but of peace , as in all the churches of the Saints ; and in the next verse following in expresse words saith , Let your women keep silence in the churches , for it is not permitted unto them to speak , but they are commanded to be under obedience , as also saith the law : and if they will learn any thing , let them ask their husbands at home , for it is a shame for women to speak in the Church . And what Saint Paul writ to this Church of Corinth he writ to all Churches , and proclames that what he writ to them were the commandments of the Lord , ver . 37. so that God had commanded that the women should not speak in the Church , and saith that it is a shame they should : and yet in these our dayes , in many of the new congregations , they have their voices in choosing of officers and admitting of Members , and have all of them Peters Keys at their Girdle , and make learned parts of speech in the congregation , and dispute questions and debate of matters and give their reasons con & pro as it is credibly reported and others of them set ●orth and print learned Treatises in polemicall Divinity with great applause and admiration of the Independent Ministers who cite their authority , and quote them in their writings as classicall authors , to the shame of the Nation and ludibry of Religion : and howsoever there is not any that shall more honour the truly vertuous and pious of that sex than my selfe , yet I must confesse when I see how far they become transgressors of the law of God and do those things that the holy Apostle hath not onely forbidden , but proclamed a shame ; I cannot but exceedingly blame them , and those Ministers that allow of and approve of such rebellion against God and nature . And as if it had been the speciall care in the Apostle to prevent this evill of womens intermedling in matters of the Church , he foreseeing the confusion that would be brought in upon it : In his first Epistle to Timothy , and in him to all Ministers , to whom the Government of the Church was committed , he gives him direction how to behave himselfe in the house of God , which is the Church of the living God ; in chap. 2. verse 11. 12. hee saith . Let the women learne in silence , with all subjection ; for I suffer not a woman to teach , nor to usurpe authority over the man , but to be in silence ; for Adam was first made , then Eve ; and Adam was not deceived , but the woman being deceived , was in the transgression , &c. Here the Apostle againe and againe , twice in these few words , enjoyns them silence in the church , and imposes upon them subjection and obedience : I suffer not , saith he , a woman to teach or to usurpe authority over the man , but to be in silene ; and he giveth his reasons of this his command , because saith he , Adam was first made , not by the woman nor of the woman , but the contrary ; and therefore shee may usurpe no authority over the masculine sex , especially in Gods matters , and she is to be the disciple of the man , and not the man her scholar : and therefore that superiority that the God of order had established upon the man in the first creation , hee doth now re-establish upon him againe in his holy Word , after all things through sinne had beene disordered and confused ; and commands the woman to be both subject and silent , especially in the Church . Another reason of this his command is , because the woman was first in the transgression , and was the cause of Adams fall , as hee accuses her , and her disputing and voycing of it then brought confusion upon all man-kind ; and for this her so doing , S. Paul concludes for ever hereafter , that she ought to hold her peace & be in subjection to her husband , and ought to learne in silence at home , but more especially in the Church ; for if they come to voice it once againe in the Church , as Eve brought confusion upon man-kind by her disputation and reason , so these with their loquacity and babble and confusion of voyces will bring in a new Babel into the Church and State , as they have prettily well already begun to doe . Saint Paul saith , I suffer not a woman to teach , nor to usurpe authority over the man , but to be in silence . Here the Apostle as in the place above cited , out of 1 Cor. chap. 14. commands them silence , and permits them not to speake , and expressely forbids them to usurpe authority over the man , that is , the viril sex . Now I appeale unto any understanding creature , whether or no , to make large parts of speech in the Church ( as many of them upon occasions doe ) and dispute and give their reasons con & pro , be not to speak in the Church ? and whether to have their voices in either admitting of Members or Officers , or in the casting of them out , be not to usurpe authority over the man ? for all the world knows , that they that have the power in their hands of either admitting of any into the fellowship or communion of the Church , or of hindring their coming in , or have their voices for the casting of them out when they are received , exercise and usurpe authority over those they so deal with ▪ and there-fore they do against the expresse prohibition of the Apostles , and all those women that have usurped this authority , and all those Ministers that have permitted them so to do , or taught this doctrine unto them , are all guilty of great contumacy against God , and ought seriously to repent for this their temerity and rebellion , and it will be the imortall honour of those women that have not intermedled ; and if there be not some speedy course taken by authority to forbid such disorder , we may promise nothing to the Church and whole Kingdome but confusion . It hath ever been observed , that Hermaphrodite councels in any Kingdome or Country , when women that are subjects intermeddle in government and matters of state , that that Kingdome and Country is very crased and not far from ruine and destruction ; and we need not look into many ages or countries for presidents of this kind ; and if Hermaphrodite counsels in Kingdoms have ever been so fatall unto them , what may any man think in time will become of this Church and Kingdome , when the women have gotten Peters Keys at their girdle , and have their voices in many congregations , and a power of ordering and disposing of things in Church affairs ? Certainly , nothing but confusion can be expected ; for this their doing is against the expresse command of God , who is the God of order , and injoyns the contrary : Yea , it is not onely against the law of God , but against the very law of nature and the practice of all Nations ; for never was it yet heard of in any well governed City , or Commonwealth , or Kingdome , that women that were subjects had their voices in choosing officers or Burgesses , or making of freemen , or disfranchising of them , or were permitted so much as to sit in counsell with them , much lesse to rule and give laws to others out of their own houses : And therefore as it is a thing odious to God and man , and that which is a shame to that sex , it ought to be cast out of all wel-governed Churches and States ; and as the women ought to know their places , so ought all men that are under obedience to learne their duty , and not to take upon them that which God never gave unto them , as to have their voice either in making of members in Churches , or casting of them out , or of ordaining of officers , or of imposing laws upon others , either of making publike confessions before the congregations , or of producing evidences of their conversion , or that they should walk with them some time that they might behold their conversation , or of imposing a Covenant upon any that shall be admitted ; for all rule and government in the Church is put into the hands of the Presbyters , and does not belong unto the people or multitude , neither may the Presbyters usurpe authority , but they also must exercise it onely , according to the commission given unto them by Christ , they may not transgresse it or go beyond it in the least thing ; and therefore when many of the brethren call for a publike confession of mens faith to be made in their new congregations , and the evidences of their conversion to be produced , and impose a Covenant upon them before they admit them to be members of their Church , ( as if they had lived before in infidelity ; Who notwithstanding were known to be holy and godly Christians , and as true beleevers as any that now live in the world ) and think them onely Christians and Beleevers that doe as they would have them , and count of others that will not conforme themselves to their customes and novelties ; but as the off-scowring and refuse and no Christians ▪ I say it is an intolerable usurpation , and a thing that was yet never before practised in the world , in any Church either Jewish or Christian till these dayes , and therefore they go beyond their commission in so doing ; for God in his commission to his Apostles and all Ministers , bids them admit of all that come in and beleeve and are baptized , he quencheth not the smoaking flax nor breaketh the bruised reed ; now then , when they know thousands in this Kingdome that do beleeve , and are men of unblamable lives , and such as would lay down their lives for the faith once delivered unto the Saints and are baptized ; what have they to do to lord it over them , and to hinder them from communicating in the Ordinances and to be admitted into Church ▪ fellowship with them , or to debarre them from the communion of the Saints ? Me thinks the vision to Saint Peter in the tenth of the Acts should teach such men their duty , when God said unto Peter rise kill and eat , Peter said not so Lord , for I have never eaten any thing that is common and unclean ; and the voyce said , what God hath cleansed call not thou common . And this , saith the Scripture , was done thrice , that by the mouth of two or three Witnesses this truth might be confirmed to Peter and all other Ministers , not to call those people common , prophane and unclean , and to count them but rubbish , whom God hath graced with the gifts of his holy Spirit , and hath sanctified , and such as beleeve in Jesus Christ and are baptized as well as themselves , and such as stood to the truth when they durst not shew their faces , but ran from the Cause and deserted it , or at least temporized , and such as if the like occasions were offered , would manifest unto the world ( by Gods assistance ) that their lives and all they have should not be dear unto them for the restimony of Jesus ; and yet such as these must be debarred from the communion in their Assemblies , unlesse they will conforme to their new-born traditions ; for these are no traditions of the Elders , but of the younger : and if Christ in his time sharply reproved those that brake the Commandements of God through the traditions of men , and deeply reproved the Ministers in those dayes for teaching the people to preferre the traditions of the Elders before the commandements of God , and for teaching them the fear of God after the precepts of men : What shall we think those Ministers will have to answer at the dreadfull day of judgement , when they set up their traditions in the Church of God and preferre them before the Commandements of God ? and what can any man think of the condition of that people , that account of such novelties as the Oracles of God , and violate the law of Love , and make rents and schisms in the seamlesse garment of the church through these traditions ? Surely whatsoever they may promise to themselves , their condition is very dangerous ; for our Saviour saith , Woe be to those by whom offences come , Matthew 18 , and whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that beleeve in me , it were better for him that a milstone were hanged about his necke , and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea . And whether this be not to transgresse the the Commandements of God through their traditions and to offend those little ones that beleeve in Christ , when they will not receive such into the communion and fellowship of the church , as beleeve and are baptized , but count them as aliens and strangers , yea , infidels and rubbish , I referre my selfe to any that is but of ordinary understanding . For Gods command unto all Ministers was , that they should admit all such into the church as beleeved and were baptized upon their desiring it , without any confession , either private or publicke , or entring into any covenant : Now this command of God they trangresse by their traditions , and keepe out many thousands of Beleevers through the Kingdome , as unholy , and as having no right to the Ordinances , because forsooth they will not obey their new-borne Lawes and Traditions ; for where did ever God command that no Beleevers should bee admitted into the church except they made a publicke confession of their faith , and walked some time in fellowship amongst them , and then gave in the evidences of their conversion , and entred into a private covenant , and gave the Church satisfaction ? Or where was it ever practised by any of the Primitive christians , either by those that were converted by Peters Sermons and the other Apostles , or by Pauls preaching ? was Lydia ( when God opened her heart to beleeve Pauls preaching ) admitted into the church upon any such termes ? was the Goaler and his converted family forced to make a publicke confession to the church of their faith , and to give in the evidences of their conversion , and to enter into a private convenant before they could be made Members of the Church , or was the Churches assent required before they could be admitted and made members of it , or were ever any of these things they impose upon Christians now , required at beleevers hands before these our times ? and therefore they are to be abominated as vaine traditions , and such as by which they breake the Lawes of God , making divisions in the Church and Kingdome , and through all the families , and houses of the same , so that neither Masters of families nor parents have any rule over their wives , children or servants : their husbands goe out one way , the wife another , their children to this Assembly , their servants to that Congregation , and as it was among the Corinthians which Paul blames in them , one said , I am of Paul , another I am of Apollo , the third I am of Cephas , and so they flutter about like a company of chickings , without either heads or wit , and none will bee under obedience to either Parents or Masters ( not withstanding God hath commanded children to obey their Parents and servants their Masters ) no farther than pleaseth their owne humours , and all this they have learned by the traditions of the younger : and whether I have wronged the Brethren in any thing I have now said , I report my selfe to all the distracted Families in the Kingdome where they have beene preaching , and the daily experience of any moderate minded Christian : and if ever there was a Pantheon of all Religions in the world , it is now in England , by reason of these new teachers , to the great dishonour of God , the hinderance of Reformation , and the alienating of the affections one from another of those that are joyned together in nighest relations . Now whereas Master Knollys and my Brother Burton passing by the Church of Ierusalem in their march ( as I said before ) make some poore weake skirmishes against my forces drawne out of the Garrisons of holy Writ , as that of the Eunuch , Paul , Cornelius , Lydia , and the Goaler , which I had formerly brought into the field , pretending they were extraordinary and not binding , because they were not ( as they say ) admitted in any particular Church constituted , according to the Gospel forme , but into the catholike visible Church : I cannot passe by their trifling without some answer unto their bravado ; and therefore I thought good in this place , before I march on to fight them , that they may not hereafter boast , & vapour , that I durst not incounter them , or looke upon their most materiall Reserves , which is concerning Cornelius , and those that were with him , which they especially pitch upon , conceiving they have a great advantage against mee , for the making of this ground good , viz. that the sole power of admitting any to bee Members of any Church , doth not reside , and lye soly in the Ministers of the Gospel , but that the people also have a hand as well in their admission as they ; and if they shall dislike the reception of any , that then the Ministers cannot by their owne and sole authority admit them though never so well qualified , for this must necessarily be the scope of their incounter ; for to what end otherwise should it be made ; yea , their very words manifest as much , which are these , first Master Knollys , page 15. and 16. thus declareth himselfe , that the brethren did not intermeddle in that busines ( saith he ) viz. of the admittance of Cornelius , and those that were with him by Baptisme into the Church , I conceive the reason why the Brethren did not intermeddle to hinder their admittance to that Ordinance of Baptisme , was not because they had not that liberty , but because they had no just objections to declare to Peter . Now that the Brethren had a liberty to declare any thing which might justly have hindred , doth appeare by the question the Apostle expounded ( saith hee ) I conceive hee meant propounded , verse 47. Can any man forbid water that these should not bee baptized ? And the Doctor himselfe ( saith hee ) acknowledgeth that the Brethren or Disciples of the Church of Jerusalem , which must be a paterne of all Churches , had this liberty to except against some sort of persons , in case that such persons have beene formerly knowne to have beene open Enemies and Persecutors of the Church , and then they are justly to bee suspected untill they have given publick evidence by witnesse to the Ministers of their true conversation , and there produceth a plaine instance to prove this out of Acts the ninth , where Paul comming to Jerusalem assayed to joyne himselfe to the Disciples , but they were all affraid of him , beleeving not that hee was a Disciple . Thus Master Knollys speaks , and then concludes , that all the Disciples in the like case have the same liberty , because Jerusalem the Mother-church is to bee a paterne to all other Daughter-churches : therefore ( saith hee ) when it doth evidently appeare , that the Disciples or Brethren of the Church of Ierusalem in her most flourishing condition had this liberty to declare their feares and their ground thereof against Paul : How can the Doctor ( saith he ) make good that the Presbyters alone , without the consent of Brethren may admit Members , and cast out Members , and that the Brethren and the Congregation have nothing to doe to hinder any such thing ? I have faithfully set downe his words , and the force of his Argument , to which I will by and by give my answer after I have set downe also what my Brother Burton hath to say in this busines , and then I will reply to them both in order . My Brother Burtons words are these , page 17. It is one thing ( saith he ) to preach , and instrumentally to convert soules , which chiefly pertaines to those that are called thereunto , but in the case of Church-government , of admitting and casting out , it is otherwise . And here let Peter himselfe ( whose words you alleage ) resolves us ; who when the Holy Ghost so wonderfully fell on all of them that heard the Word , said , can any man forbid water , that these men should not be baptized ? &c. Which words imply , that if any exceptions could have been made , it was in those Jews present , to give forth their allegations , why those beleeving Gentiles should not be admitted to become one Church with the beleeving Jews : So as your Observations fall to the ground : as that first , Peter was sent to and ●ot the Church : And secondly Peter commanded them to be baptized : Again this example was extraordinary in all the circumstances of it : Your instance of the Eunuch Act. 8. 8. of Lydia Act. 16. as many other , are meer extravagants . We ( faith he ) speak of Churches constituted , not of single converts here and there one , not yet joyned into a particular Church-body . Thus my brother Burton declareth himselfe , whose words I have faithfully set down and all he hath to say against all those examples . But before I come to my answer I shall desire the Reader to take notice of these mens dealings , they make all these examples either extravagants or extraordinary , and yet they would from the example of Cornelius and Peters question to the brethren that came along with him , inferre that the authority of admission of Members , lay not onely in the Ministers hand but in the peoples also , as who had the liberty to bring in their exceptions against any for their not admission . So that these men at pleasure will make the same Scripture they except against as not authoritative and binding for us , yet to be bindingly presidentiall for themselvs ; So that as far as in their own opinion it makes for their grolleries and serves their turn it shall be for a pattern of imitation to bind all Churches to the end of the world , which both Master Knollys and my brother Burton learnedly inferre ; but as far as it makes for the advantage of the Presbyterian opinion and to shew that the Presbyters have the sole authority of admitting Members into Church ▪ fellowship from the example of Philip , Ananias , Paul in baptizing the Goaler and Lydia , and Peters baptizing of Cornelius and admitting of him and those that were with him Members into Church communion by their sole authority without those conditions they propound and without the consent of the people , then they cry out that they are extraordinary examples or meer extravagants . Now whether this be not with the Papists to make the Word of God a nose of wax or a leaden rule that they may either work and mould it or bend it into what fashion they please , I leave it to the judgement of the learned and experienced Christian . But by the way also I desire the Reader to take notice what my brother Burton granteth : viz. that the receiving of those Gentiles , and the admitting of them by Peter into the Church by Baptism , was to make them one Church with the beleeving Jews ; these are his own words : From which it is sufficiently apparent , that be men baptized and admitted into the Church either after an ordinary way or after an extraordinary , it is sufficient to incorporate them into Church-fellowship both with the beleeving Jew and Gentile and to make them Members of Christs Church , which is as much as I contend for : So that it is most certain as those that are Members of any particular Church , are by vertue of that , Members also of the whole Catholique visible Church : so in like manner those that are made Members of the Catholique visible Church may also by vertue of that , be Members of any particular church : for the Church of Christ is his Kingdome , and it is but one Flock and one Sheepfold , and there is but one Shepherd of it and King that governs it : and therefore in whatsoever part of this Kingdome of Jesus Christ they are admitted Members , and after what manner soever they be admitted , whether in an ordinary or an extraordinary way , they are Members of the whole Church and may communicate in all ordinances with any particular Church whatsoever as being subjects of Christs Kingdome and injoying all the immunities and priviledges that any of Christs subjects can challenge . And all this I learn from my brother Burtons doctrine , who so long as he holdeth out any truth unto me , I will listen unto , as he hath done in this point , but no farther . Again as all those , viz. the Eunuch , Paul , Cornelius , Lydia , and the Goaler , were admitted to be Members of Christs Church by the sole authority of the Ministers , Evangelists and Apostles , and without any of those conditions urged by the brethren ; so are all other Christians by the sole authority of the Presbyters to be admitted into church-fellowship , and that upon Christs own conditions : viz. Faith , Repentance and Baptism . Having upon the occasion of my brother Burtons and Hanserdoes words spake thus much , I will now come to my Answer to them both . And first whereas they peremptorily affirme from the interrogation of Peter to those that came along with him ; where he saith , Can any man forbid water that these men should not be baptized , &c. that it doth imply that the brethren have power also of admitting Members into the church and ought to have their voices , as in the receiving of them in so in the casting of them out . It is a meer non sequitur and a very groundlesse illation and inference : for the interrogation plainly manifests the contrary : as will appear from other presidents and reason : as for example in the eighth of the Romans ver . 33. 34. Saint Paul saith Who shall lay any thing to the charge of Gods Elect ? Who is he that condemneth ? who shall separate us from the love of Christ ? All the which interrogations do not imply as the Apostle himselfe answereth , that any creature can lay any thing to the charge of Gods Elect , or that any creature can condemn , or that any creature can separate the Elect from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus . Another instance ( to omit many ) we have of the same nature with that of Peter Acts 8. 35. Where the Eunuch said unto Philip , See here is water , what doth hinder me to be baptized ? I demand of any whether or no this interrogation of his doth not imply as much as if he had said , no creature now can hinder me from Baptism , seeing that we have water that element that is appointed for it , and I do beleeve : And so much may be gathered from Philips Answer to him , who saith , nothing could hinder his baptism and admission into the Church , if he did beleeve in Christ with all his heart ; whereupon the Eunuch answered , I beleeve that Jesus Christ is the Son of God ; and he was forthwith baptized . So that by this it is sufficiently manifest that that inference they would gather from Peters words cannot groundedly be made : viz. that it is in the power of the people to hinder any : as is yet more evident from Peters own words and reasons when he was questioned about this businesse in the 11. of the Acts , the story whereof is there set down at large with Peters Answer to all their Objections , Who told them ver . 12. that the spirit bad him go with those that came from Cornelius nothing doubting , &c. saying in the conclusion of his discourse and that with an irresistible reason , ver . 17. For as much then as God gave them the like gifts as he did unto us , who beleeved in the Lord Jesus Christ , what was I , that I could withstand God ? All the which discourse of Peter and this his reason do sufficiently prove that his interrogation , saying , Can any man forbid water , that these should not be bapti●ed ? Doth not imply as my Brother Burton and Master Knollys would have it , that it was in the power of those that were with Peter or any other to have hindred their baptism and admission into the church of Christ seeing they beleeved : For if Peter himselfe should have refused it he had been disobedient to God himselfe and had doubted , which he was forbidden and withall had resisted in as much as had been in him the spirit of God ; For so saith Saint Peter , What was I , that I could withstand God ? From which I gather and that by very good reason that all those of the congregationall way that will not admit all such as beleeve and are baptized into their new gathered churches without they walk some time with them and without the making of a publike confession of their faith , and the bringing in of their evidences of their conversion and entring into a particular explicite covenant and without the consent of the whole church are all fighters against God and withstanders of his spirit : And if they do not speedily repent for all their wickednesse , and relinquish their ungodly , unchristian and unbrotherly practises the Lord from heaven will shew his wrathfull displeasure upon them all , for he will vindicate his honour and the honour and priviledges of his people ? Shall not he avenge his own Elect and that speedily ? Luke 17. And this shall suffice for answer to that impious cavill of my Brother Burton , and Hanserdo . Now for that instance that Master Knollys bringeth , it quite overthroweth their doctrine , for it is point banke against it and their practise . For although it be not denyed , but that all true beleevers may at any time make their complaint to the Church , that is to say to those that are in authority in the Church ; to wit , the Presbyters , as the extreamest refuge upon just offence ; yet it must ever be granted that it lyeth in the brest of those that are Iudges to determine of the busines according to the allegations and probations , so that those that complaine may not be both Plaintifs and Iudges ; this I say is so known a maxime that none can deny it . Besides , we must take notice that we never read inall the New Testament , that the disciples ever so much as questioned any that desired to be admitted into church fellow ship , or refused communion to any but Paul ; & the reason was as the Scripture relateth , because they knew that hee had beene a mortall enemy unto them , and had beene a great Persecutor , and were then ignorant of his conversion , and therefore it is said they were affraid of him ; and upon the like occasion I beleeve any of the brethren in any church may doe the same , and they may feare such an one , and suspect him , and complaine of him , and that is all they can doe , but power they have none to keepe him out of Church-fellowship if upon the Ministers and Presbyters examining of the busines they find that the man is a beleever , and converted from his sinfull courses ; for by their sole authority without their good liking , or the consent of the people they may admit him into church fellowship ; and if the people should refuse to receive him upon his assaying to joyne himselfe with them , hee may appeale from them to the Presbyters and Ministers who are Gods Stewards , and who have the power of the Keyes to open the doore of the church to whom they conceive are fit : and for this his so doing , and for the Presbyters accepting of his appeale they have the Apostles and Presbyters of Ierusalem for an example ; for when the Disciples feared Paul , and seemed to be unwilling to admit him into communion with them : Hee forth with appeals to the Apostles , who upon his appeale admitted him into church fellowship according to their commission , which was , that whosoever beleeved and was baptized , hee should be received into the church and that without the consent of the people , or any of those conditions the Independents now impose upon their Members , as by this very example and instance of Mr. Knollys doth abundantly appeare , which makes wholly against their doctrine and practise , and utterly overthrowes their tenent : for most certaine it is that the power of admitting of Members , and casting out of offenders lies in those mens hands only and solely that have the power of the Keyes , and are by God himselfe made Stewards and Over-seers , and Guids of his Church his house , which when they peculiarly belong unto the Presbyters , and not to the people , they onely , and not the people ought to have the managing of the government of the church ; and this hath beene sufficiently proved by the receiving in of Members , both in an ordinary way , and in an extraordinary manner , by all the examples I have produced , and by this very instance of Saint Paul , alleaged by Master Knollys himselfe , who when hee was admitted into Church-fellowship , not onely without the consent of the brethren , but against their good liking it is abundantly manifest , that the people have nothing to doe with the government of the Church , but that it lyeth wholly in the Presbyters hands . And all this I say is clearly proved out of the good Word of God , within the wals of the which , it is ever safe to abide , and in the action of obedience to the which all men may promise to themselves perpetuall security : and this shall suffice to have answered to all that Mr. Knollys and my Brother Burton had to say to all my Arguments . And by all that I have now spoke , I hope it doth sufficiently appeare that there is neither precept nor example through all the Holy Scripture to warrant the practise of these men in the gathering of their new Churches ; and if a man will but looke a little more upon the practice of Christs seventy disciples , & of all the Apostles in the gathering of Churches , they shall not find one footstep through the whole Booke of God of the gathering Churches after the manner of their congregating of their assemblies : as for Christs Disciples , they were all sent to gather in the lost sheep of the house of Israel , they went not to gather in converted men from amongst converted men , for they were to bring the lost sheepe into Christs fold ( and wee are taught there is but one Shepheard and one sheep-fold ) wee never read that after they were once folded and brought into the Church , that any true Pastors came into the fold and flocks of their fellow-shepheards ; and picked out all the best and the fattest sheep , and the most wholsome , and molded them into an Independent Fold by themselves , as separate and distinct from the others , and with the which they would have no fellowship and communion in the Ordinances , this was never heard of before these dayes : Paul was so farre from getting away of others sheepe that hee tooke it for a dishonour to him to build upon anothers foundation , Rom. 15. and preached Christ in those places where they had never heard of him before ; and planted the Church of Corinth himselfe , and left Apollo to water it , and committed all the flocks that he had gathered , as that of Ephesus , to the charge and care of faithfull Pastors , and commands both the flocks and the Pastors , and in them all Shepheards and Folds , to keepe unity and love one with another , Ephes . 4. verse 1 , 2 , 3 , 4. &c. and forbids them to make separations and divisions , and schismes betweene flock and flock , and this method hee used wheresoever hee came ; yea , as soone as hee was converted and entred upon his ministry , as wee may see in the first of the Galathians , hee went into Arabia , and preached there among the poore Infidels , hee got not other mens sheepe from them , neither did hee ever make any separation of sheepe from sheepe ; yea , even in those flocks and churches , as that of Corinth , Galatia and Colosse , where there were many that walked disorderly and against the rules prescribed , and taught false doctrine and heresies , and made schismes in the Church , and were very scandalous , so that if ever there were in any Churches a just cause of making a separation , it was then ; and yet the Apostles bid not the Christians separate themselves from the communion and assemblies of the Saints , and from the Ordinances for these mens causes , but onely that they should looke unto themselves , and examine their owne consciences , that they may not offend , and so make themselves unworthy of the holy things , and gives them power to cast out the prophane , but no way tolerates them to separate ; onely hee bids them not be familiar with such as walke disorderly , that by this meanes they might learne to amend their lives , and tels them of what judgements have alwayes happened to such as were wicked , and bids them by their example to take heed how they provoke God by the like , as it is at large set down in the tenth chapter , and commands them to make no separation but from Idolaters and Infidels : and so likewise in his Epistle to the Galatians , he says for his own particular , he could wish that they that troubled them were cut off , yet he biddeth not the Galatians to separate themselvs into Independent congregations . Nothing of all such things were taught before these dayes , that true beleevers and the faithfull servants of God should separate from the Assemblies of their Brethren every way as dearly beloved of God as themselves , and such as with the twelve Tribes of Israel , serve their God night and day , and would suffer any thing for the Gospell ; and that anv Christians I say , should make separation from the fellowship of such , or that such should be accounted as en●mies of Christ , it was never heard of before our times ; by which their so dealing , they have made the greatest schism in the Church that was ever yet made , to the scandall of our holy profession . I have been ever taught in Gods holy Word , that those faithfull Ministers that preached Jesus Christ and him crucified , and opened the eyes of the blind , and turned them from darkenesse to light , and from the power of Satan unto God that they might receive forgivenesse of sinnes , and inheritance amongst them that are sanctified by faith in Jesus Christ , and taught the people that they should repent and turne to God , and doe workes meet for repentance ; and that instructed all men that they being delivered out of the hands of their enemies , they should serve God without feare , in holinesse and righteousnesse before him all the dayes of their life , and teaching them that the grace of God bringing salvation , hath appeared to all men , for this very end that they should deny all ungodlinesse and worldly lusts , and should live soberly , righteously and godly in this present world , looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God of our Saviour Iesus Christ , who gave himselfe for us , that hee might redeeme us from all iniquity , and purifie unto himselfe a peculiar people zealous of good workes . I say I have beene ever taught by Gods Holy Word , to beleeve that those Ministers that instruct the people to doe all these things , and where the people by faith imbrace and receive this doctrine , are the true Ministers of Iesus Christ , & those congregations under them the church of Iesus Christ , and of his sheepfold , and that Christ in all such congregations is set up as King in his Throne , as who rules in the hearts of his people , and the which are swayed and guided by the Scepter of his Word and Spirit , and deserve none of those contumelious languages the brethren asperse both Ministers and people with . Of the Ministers they thus speak and print , That they deny , disclaim and preach against Christs Kingly government over mens consciences and Churches , so that such a conversion ( as is wrought by them ) comes not home to whole Christ ; and such with their converters do deny Christs Kingly government ; or at least and best they are converted but in part , and that main thing is wanting , to wit , Christs Kingly office ; and of all the people and Christian beleevers through the Kingdome that are not in their congregations and new gathered Assemblies , they speak and print thus : We ( say the brethren , the Independent Ministers ) exhort them to set up Christ King in their hearts : We exhort them to become and professe to be those Saints , of whom Christ is King ; for he is King of Saints , Revel . 15. 3. but they will not beleeve us ( say they ) they will not depend upon Christ as the onely Law ▪ giver and King over their consciences : Now what would you have us to do in this case ? ( say they ) baptize the Infants of such Parents as will not in this respect professe nor confesse Christ to be their King ? Why ▪ do you not know ( say they ) that no Infants have any title to Baptism ▪ that are not within the Covenant visibly ? and how are they within the Covenant visibly , but by vertue of their Parents faith outwardly professed ? and what outward profession of faith is there in the Parents that refuse Christ for their onely King ? that are ashamed or afraid to professe to be in Covenant with Christ , as their King ? if therefore the Parents professe not , yea , refuse thus to be in visible Covenant , can the children be said to be in visible Covenant , and so to have a right in Baptism , the externall seal of the covenant ? here is an obex , a barre put . These are their own words , which I have set down at large ; the summe of them briefly is this ; that all the Ministers of the church of England that are not of their fraternity , do deny , disclaime and preach against Christs Kingly Government over mens consciences and churches ; and that all the people under their Ministery are men unconverted , or at least converted but in part , wanting the main thing , to wit , Christs Kingly office ; men visibly out of the Covenant of grace , who have not so much as an outward profession of faith , who deny Christ to be their King ; to whose persons and infants the very Sacraments and seales of grace , with all church communion , may and ought to be denyed . Another of the Independents , amongst many of the contumelious and disgracefull speeches hee uttereth out against the Ministers of the church of England , calling them the blackcoats in the Synod , who , he is afraid , will prove more cruell Taskmasters than their Fathers the Bishops , who cowardly sit at home , and in his apprehension , for no other end but to breed faction and division amongst the well affected to the Parliament , promoting their own interest , which ( saith he ) is lazinesse , pride , covetousnesse and domination , and amongst many such expressions as these , hee proclaimes them the sworne enemies of Iesus Christ : and desiring that the Parliament may be put in mind of their Covenant , for he thinkes they have sworne to root out Popery : he tels them they have established Tythes the very root and support of Popery which he doth humbly conceive is a contradiction to their Covenant , and which will be a greater snare than the Common-Prayer to many of the precious consciences of Gods people , whose duty it is in his judgement , to dye in a prison before they act or stoope unto so dishonourable a thing as this is , to their Lord and Master , as to maintaine the black-coats with tythes , whom they looke upon as the professed enemies of their anointed Christ , &c. These are some of his formall expressions , I leave the comment of these severall passages to others : neither doe I rehearse innumerable such like sentences as are daily vented , to the intolerable disgrace , both of all the Ministers of the Church of England , and of all those beleeving christians that are under their severall charges , and that in every Pamphlet in the which they proclaime all the Ministers to be the sworne and professed enemies of the Lord Iesus Christ , and such as deny , disclaime and preach against Christs kingly government over mens consciences and churches ; and for the people and beleevers in England , they proclaime them to be men unconverted , or at least converted but in part , wanting the maine thing , Christs Kingly office ; men visibly out of the covenant of grace , who have not so much as an outward profession of the faith ; who deny Christ to be their King , to whose persons and Infants the very Sacraments and seales of grace , with all church ▪ communion , may and ought to be denied , &c. By the which words , they not onely unchurch all the congregations of England , Scotland , Ireland , but indeed all the reformed churches , and unchristian all christians but those that are in their owne independent assemblies , and account them as aliens and strangers from the common-wealth of the Saints , and make Christ to be no King over them , or to have any Kingdome in or amongst them , but onely amongst themselves in their new congregations : whereas Christ ever had a church or Kingdome upon earth in all ages before they were , and hath without all controversie a true Kingdome in many churches in these our dayes , where they are not . Had I not seene their expressions in print , and the Booke in which they are uttered , set forth by authority with approbation , I should not have beleeved that they had all of them bin so uncharitable ; but finding that booke not onely printed by license , but generally applauded by them all and much magnified , as the frequent editions of it doe manifest , I gather , it is the universall opinion of them all . Than the which , what could bee more uncharitably and unchristianly spoken ? what comfort can any of the Ministers of the Church of England have in the society of these men , who ( what soever outward seeming favour they shew to them ) in their hearts conceive of them as the sworne enemies of Christ and his Kingdome , and as men unworthy to live , and who count it a dishonourable thing to their Lord and Master , to maintaine those black-coats with tythes , whom they looke on as the professed enemies of their anointed Christ ? can I say , any Ministers with joy and alacrity converse with these men ? no surely ; what reall comfort can any poor christian beleevers through the Kingdome either expect or looke for at these mens hands if they were in their power , whom they declare ( and that in print , and in their Pulpits ) to be men unconverted , or converted but in part , wanting the maine thing , Christs Kingly office , men visibly out of the covenant of grace , who have not so much as an outward profession of faith , who deny Christ to be their King ; to whose persons and Infants the very Sacraments and seales of grace , with all church-communion , may and ought to be denied ? can any true christians be reall friends to the enemies of Christ ? He ( saith Saint Paul , 1 Cor. chap. 16. v. 22. ) that loveth not the Lord Jesus Christ , let him be Anathama Maranatha ; will any true Christians blesse those that God hath curst ? David said , I hate them that hate thee , yea , I hate them with a perfect hatred . And surely those that are true friends to Christ , hate all his enemies ; now they looke upon our Ministers as the profest enemies of Christ , and upon all the people under their ministery as enemies of his Kingdome , and as men to whose persons & infants the very Sacraments and seales of grace , with all church-communion , may and ought to be denied ( they are their own words ) can they therefore expect any reall friendship from them , whatsoever outward curtesie they seeme to shew them ? no doubtlesse ; how can any poore christian have any delight to come amongst these men , or so much as to be in their society , whom they account of as the enemies of Christ and his Kingdome ? For my owne particular , I would not willingly come in any mans company , or be familiar with any that I thought a profest enemy of Christ and his Kingdome , neither should I ever beleeve I could have any reall esteeme from such as thinke mee an enemy of Christ and his Kingdome . It was the greatest calamity to the poore sufferers under the Prelats tyrannie , and to all those distressed christians that were haled into the High-commission court , or into the Star-chamber , or before the Counsell-table for matter of Religion and conscience ( which was the lot of many thousands through the whole Kingdome ) that commonly their greatest enemies were those of their owne house ; their parents , their brethren and sisters would be the chiefest calumniators and reproachers of them , and that in word and deed would most despightfully persecute them , denying them the common humanity of hospitality , and would not so much as looke on them , except it were to revile them and insult over them , and would ordinarily joyne with their enemies both privately and publickly , and desert them in their greatest streights , as all of them can generally witnesse , which not onely encouraged their enemies against them , but added credit to their false acculations and calumnies ; for they would usually say , ye may see what manner of men these are , whose nighest friends are not only ashamed of , but thus speake of them ; which was a greater affliction unto them than all the other miseries and sufferings they under-went ; for had they beene their professed enemies , as David said , they could easily have endured it , and there would lesse credit and regard have beene given to their words ; but they were their parents , brethren , sisters and familiars , and therefore it added more sharpely to their affliction : So had they beene our professed enemies as Papists , Socinians , Arminians , or those of the Prelaticall faction that should have proclaimed us enemies of Christ and his Kingdome , and had they denyed unto us and our children the seales of grace , with all church-communion , it would not have troubled us ; but tu Brute ! that Brethren , that fellow-sufferers in affliction , that had gone up to the house of God together , and had taken sweet counsell together ; that they should now proclaime us the enemies of Iesus Christ , and deny communion with us ; oh let not this bee spoken in Gath and Ashkelon ! This is that that grieves and sads the hearts of their brethren more then all their former afflictions , and gives a great advantage to the common enemy , and scandalizes the Gospel , and exposes both themselves and us to the scorne of the Malignants , who ordinarily jeere and say , see those holy Brethren that lost their ears together , are now together by the cares , and count one of another as a company of Infidels , and disclaime all holy communion one with another , and will not so much as admit of their children to baptisme , or suffer them to receive the Sacraments with them . But this is that that makes all men wonder , to heare them proclaime all the Ministers of the Church of England , to be such as deny , disclaime , and preach against Christs Kingly government , when it is apparently evident , both by all their preachings and writings , and all their practices , that they ever advance Christs Kingly government as really as any of those that oppose them , who in preaching up the Kingly office of Christ , and setting Christ upon his Throne , are inferiour to none of them in this work : For we are taught out of Gods Word , that those Ministers set up Christ in his Throne , that open the eyes of the blind , and turne them from darkenesse to light , and from the power of Satan to God , that they might receive forgivenesse of sinnes , and an inheritance amongst them that are sanctified by faith in Iesus Christ , and that teach men to repent and turne to God , and doe workes meet for repentance ; and when the people that heare them give themselves first to the Lord and upto his Ministers by the will of God , and after denying all ungodlinesse and worldly lusts , live soberly , righteously and godly in this present world . And this , the Word of God teacheth us , is to set up Christ upon his Throne ; and those Ministers that teach all these things , set up Christ upon his Throne , and those people that embrace this doctrine , make Christ their King , as we may see 2 Cor. chap. 8. ver . 5. Tit. 2. verse 12. For Christ sits as King upon his Throne when hee is beleeved in to bee that horne of salvation , that was raised up for us in the house of David , that has saved and delivered all that beleeve in him , out of the hands of all their enemies both spirituall and bodily , that they may serve him without feare , and when Christ rules in all their hearts by the Scepter of his Word and Spirit , and when they owne him as their onely Law-giver , and acknowledge him to be the onely King in his Church , and the Saviour of all those that truly beleeve in him ; and this is to set up Christ upon his Throne , and the brethren themselves accord unto this . Now when the Ministers of England teach this doctrine , in their preachings and writings , how can they be truly said to deny , disclaim and preach against Christs Kingly government , over mens consciences and Churches ? and how can that people be said truly to deny Christs Kingly government who do both beleeve and to the uttermost of their power practice this doctrine and follow onely the guidance of his holy Spirit and Word , both for doctrine and government , who is King of the Church ? whether therefore this be not an unjust and unchristian calumny , laid both upon the Ministers and people of the church of England , I leave it to the consideration of any moderate minded christian ! doubtles all charitable minded christians if they consider all things aright , will not think so dishonourably neither of the Ministers of England not of the people under their Ministery ; for they deserve not to be accounted the profest enemies of Christ , who are freed from that heavy accusation by Christs own testimony ; who when it was related unto him by Saint John , Mark 9. ver . 38. That they had seen one casting out devills in his name , which followed them not , and that the Disciples had forbad him because he did not follow them : Our Saviour Christ replying , forbid him not , saith he , for whosoever is not against us is on our part . Now these Ministers that open the eyes of the blind , and turne them from darknesse to light , and from the power of Satan to God , they cannot be esteemed enemies of Christ , and to be against Christ but for him , and ought highly to be honoured for their works sake 1 Thess . chap. 5. ver . 13. and singularly , to be beloved , and deserve not to be maligned and reproached , especially by brethren who owe all their conversions next unto God , to their Ministery ; yea , both the Pastors and people of all the new congregated churches are beholding unto them for their conversion ; for they admit none into their Assemblies but beleevers , and they were made beleevers and converted by their Ministery ; and therefore they are friends of Christ and not his enemies , and they ought all of them to look upon them as their Fathers , and on the church of England as their Mother , and on the beleevers of England as their brethren , and ought not thus unchristianly and ungratefully to cast dirt in all their faces . Saint Paul in his Epistle to the Philippians , chap. 1. hath these words , Some saith he , preach Christ even of envy and strife , and some also of good will ; the one preach Christ of contention and not sincerely , thinking to adde affliction to my bonds , but the other of love : What then ? notwithstanding every way , whether in pretence or in truth Christ be preached , I therein do rejoyce , yea , and I will rejoyce . Saint Paul speaks here of such as preach pure doctrine , though not with a pure mind , and was glad that Christ was preached , and counts them not the enemies of Christ , as he did the false teachers among the Galatians , who joyned the ceremoniall law and their own inventions with the Gospel , and therefore he wisht that they were cut off ; but in this place he rejoyces that Christ and the Gospell were purely preached , though it were of envy . Now when the Ministers of the Church of England , do not only preach the Gospell purely , but of sincerity and of love , and mingle not their own traditions and inventions with the Gospell , but follow their commission ; how can any men without intolerable injustice proclame them the enemies of Jesus Christ , and make them odious to the people under the name of Presbyterians , whom they perswade all men , that they will prove more cruell Taskmasters then the Prelates ? yea and they have generally possest the people with so prejudicate an opinion of them all , as if they would more lord it over them than ever the Bishops did , and causlesly have moved the people to hate the name of Presbytery : And notwithstanding they themselves pretend they contend for the ancient Presbytery , and by this make themselves Presbyterians as well as the other : What justice or equity then is there in their dealing , to make their brethren odious to the world for endeavouring to set up a Presbytery after Gods Word , when they themselves are Presbyterians , and labor to set up a Presbytery of their own ? and therefore if the name of Presbyters be odious in the Ministers of the Church of England , no reason can gainsay it , but that they also should be as odious to the people as their brethren , for they also are Presbyterians . But that the truth may the better appear , whether the Ministers of the Church of England , or the Independent Ministers , be most guilty of all the accusations laid to their charge , it will not be a misse to compare the practice of the Ministers of the church of England and the proceedings of the Independent Ministers together , and that both for their doctrine and discipline , and in their severall studies and endeavours , for the advancing of Christs Kingdome ; and by so doing it will be easie for any to judge , which of their governments and which of the Ministers are more intolerable , and which of them are most guilty of those foule reproaches the Ministers of the church of England are aspersed with by their Brethren ; for he hath a shallow understanding and a very dim sight that cannot discern , whether those that advance Christs their Kings Word and Laws onely , and follow his commission and the example of the holy Apostles in their Ministeries , and that of John Baptist and the primitive Preachers , or those that set up their own inventions and prefer them before the Laws of Christ , and have neither precept nor president for their doings in all the holy Word of God : He I say , that cannot judge which of these most advance Christ for their King , either those that obey Christs Laws , or those that observe their own , neglecting Christs , is of a very shallow capacity . But now let us compare them together ; the Ministers of the Church of England preach faith and repentance , the Law and the Gospell , according to Christs commission given to his Apostles , and they receive all into the Church that beleeve and are baptized , and such as but desire to be admitted , they demanding of them what they should do to be saved ; and in their so doing they have both precept and presidents : For Christ in his commission unto them hath given them authority so to do . Neither did he ever say unto his Apostles and Ministers , admit none into the church , although they beleeve and are baptized , without they walk with you some dayes weeks , moneths or years , that you may behold their conversation and manner of life , and after you have had some tryall and experience of them , see then that they make a publike confession of their faith before the church and give in the evidences of the truth of their conversion before the congregation , and enter into a private and solemne Covenant and be admitted by the consent and approbation of the Church ; or otherwise , if they will not submit themselves to this Law , and come into the Church upon these conditions , receive them not into your Assemblies , nor admit of them for members . Here is nothing of all this in Christs Commission , nor in his holy Word , nor any president of the same in sacred Authority ; and therefore John the Baptist and the holy Apostles and primitive Ministers admitted all that came unto them , and such as but demanded of them what they should do to be saved ; and baptized them and received them into the Church without any gainsaying or question ; as we may see in the third of Luke , and in the seventh chapter of the same book , and in the second of the Acts ; and no sooner did the Eunuch desire baptisme , but Philip granted it ; the Goaler did but aske Paul and Sylas , What they should do to be saved , and they said , Beleeve on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved and thy house ; and it is related that the Goaler and all his were streight way baptized , Acts 16. vers . 31 , 32 , 33. that is , they were forthwith admitted into the Church , without either walking any time with the Church for their approbation , or without either making a publike confession of their faith before the Church , or giving in evidences of the truth of their conversion to the congregation , or entring into a private covenant , and without the consent and allowance of the Church . And Christ notwithstanding was imbraced by them as their Lord and King , and was preached by Paul and Silas , as the Lord and King of his Church , and was set up upon his Throne as King by them , as well as he is in any Independent Churches , and yet they had none of all their new borne truths , and they could then see how to set up Christ upon his Throne without their new lights ; and as Christ was then by Paul and Silas and the other Apostles set upon his Throne as King in all those primitive Churches , so he is at this day in all the true Protestant Churches through the world , as well as in any of the Independent Assemblies , and yet they were and are all ignorant of their new way ; so that any understanding christian may gather , that all their new borne truths are no way requisite for the setting up of Christ as King in his Church , nor for the advancement of Christs Kingly government ; for if they had , Christ would have put them into the Apostles Commission , and the Apostles who were led into all truth by the holy Ghost , who brought whatsoever Christ had taught them concerning the Kingdome of God ( Act. 1. ) into their memories , would have suggested all these things , The new way , the new borne truth , the new lights to them , that they might have been recorded , if they had been necessary for the setting up of Christ upon his Throne ; but when neither Christ nor the holy Ghost , nor the blessed Apostles have prescribed any of all these to the church , nor called for them , nor required them of any that desire to be saved or made Members of the church ; whether this be not a great temerity in any men , to preach all these things as the lawes of Christ , I leave it to the judgement of any ingenuous minded christian ? and whether this be not to preferre their own inventions and traditions before the commandements of God and the lawes of Christ the King of his church , and whether this be not rather to set up themselves than Christ , I referre it also to any judicious and impartiall christians to weigh and consider . I shall now demand of any moderate christian therefore , and let him answer me candidly , whether of those Ministers and people most advance the Kingdome of Christ , and acknowledge him to be their onely Lord and Law-giver , that both in their teaching and beleeving follow his commission and Word , and teach nothing nor beleeve nothing ( as they are injoyned ) but what Christ their King commands them ? or those , that to the commission and commands of Christ adde their own inventions and traditions , and preferre them before the lawes of Christ the King and Law giver of his Church ? I am confident , if he will deale impartially , he will answer me , that those Ministers and that people most advance Christ for their King , and most set him upon his Throne , that own his Law , and that onely , for the rule of their faith and obedience ; for Christ himselfe hath said it , Iohn 10. My Sheep hear my voiyce , they will not listen unto the voyce of a stranger ; Christs voyce onely the King of his Church is to be heard , and they onely that obey it advance him for their King and set him up on his Throne , which when the Ministers and Beleevers in the Church of England doe , and the Independents do not , they more advance Christ for their King than they ; for the Independents to Christs Law and Commission adde their owne traditions and inventions , and enjoyne all that will be admitted as Members into their congregations , besides their beleeving and being baptized , to walke with them some time for approbation , and to make a publike confession of their faith before the Church , and to bring in the evidences of the truth of their conversion , and enter into a private and solemne Covenant , and not to be admitted as members without the consent of the Church , all which Christ the King of his church never commanded ; and those that will not submit themselves to these their traditions , they will not permit or suffer to enter into their church as joyned members , which they call the onely true Churches of Christ , and count of all others that differ from them , as enemies of Christ and his Kingdome , and as men without the covenant : and if this be to set up Christ upon his Throne , then the Pharisees set up Christ upon his Throne , who preferred their own traditions before the commandements of God ; yea , the Pope himselfe and the Prelates set up Christ upon his Throne , who preferred their owne traditions and idolatries before the Lawes of Christ . Now if all the traditions of the Papists were justly abhorred and cast out of the church as things de●ogatory to the Kingly and Propheticall dignity of Iesus Christ , and as things repugnant to his Royaltie : I see no reason but all other popery under whatsoever name or title it be intruded upon the people should be eliminated and cast out of the church ; and whether this be not a new kind of Popery , to bring in new wayes , and new borne truths , and new lights , and impose them upon the people as the commands of God , and to excommunicate and unchurch all churches in the world but their owne assemblies , I referre my selfe to the judgement of any intelligible christian . Saint Paul writing to the Galatians , blames those false Teachers amongst them , that would have joyned but the ceremoniall Law with the Gospel , and cals it a perverting of the Gospel of Christ , and wishes that such Teachers were cut off , Gal. 5. v. 12. and blames likewise those Galatians that received their doctrine , saying , Oh foolish Galatians , who hath bewitched you that you should not obey the truth ? and yet they onely urged the ceremoniall Law which God by Moses had appointed to remaine till the fulnesse of time , but was now abrogated ; they were not their owne traditions , they were no new borne lights , no new wayes , no new truths . Now if Paul was so displeased , or God rather , with the Galatians , both teachers and hearers , the one for bringing in or joyning the ceremoniall Law to the Gospel , and the other for admitting of them , how highly would God have beene displeased with them if they had set up their owne inventions for the Lawes of God , and had brought in new borne truths , and intruded them upon the people as necessary to salvation , and for the setting up of Christ upon his Throne ? Without doubt the Apostle would most sharpely have reproved them , and have given speciall caveats against them , as hee did in his Epistle to the Colossians , the second chapter of the which is chiefly spent in condemning all humane traditions ; yea , in his first chapter of his Epistle to the Galatians , verse 8 , 9. Hee chargeth them , that though the Apostles themselves , or an Angel from Heaven should preach unto them otherwise than that they had received , they should count him accursed ; and as J said before , saith the Apostle , so say I now againe , if any man preach unto you otherwise than that you have received , let him be accursed . But none of the Apostles ever taught the Church , that christians and beleevers , though baptized , should not bee admitted as members into the Church , unlesse they had walked some time in church-fellowship with them , and had first made a publicke confession of their faith , and had brought in the evidences of the truth of their conversion , and entred into a solemne private covenant , and were admitted by the consent of the church ; none of all this did ever the Apostles teach , or the christians of those times embrace or beleeve , and therefore such doctrines as these ought not to be received . In the first of the Corinthians in many places he reproves those that made schismes and brought in heresies and sects into the Church ; and in the fourth chapter and sixth verse , under his owne and Apollo's name , hee sets an example before them , that they should containe themselves within the limits and bounds of that doctrine and manner of preaching , prescribed and set downe in the Word of God , and used by the Spirit of God ; and commands them that they should learne in the Apostles , not to presume or to be wise above that which is written , and enjoynes all christians to reject all wayes of teaching that have not Gods Word for their warrant : Now in all Gods Word there is nothing of all this written , that after men beleeve and are baptized , they should not yet be admitted into the Church , without they had walked some time with them for their approbation , and without they had made a publike confession of their faith before the congregation , and brought in the evidences of their true conversion , and had entred into a private covenant , and were admitted by the consent of the church ; none of all this is written in Gods Word , and therefore wee ought not to imbrace it . And in the 2 of the Corinths , c. 11 ▪ v. 4. the Apostle signifieth unto the Corinthians , that no man can teach the Gospel & the things of of heaven more exactly than he and the other Apostles have taught them , nor set before them a more perfect Doctrine of Jesus Christ than that that they have taught them , for the converting of any unto Christ , and for the setting up of Christ as King upon his Throne , and for the making of them Members of the Church , and for the building of them up in their most holy faith , and commands the Corinthians to take heed of all false Teachers , whatsoever piety and godlinesse they make shew of , calling them deceitfull workers , and such as transforme themselves into the Apostles of Christ : And no marvaile , saith he , for Sat an himselfe can transforme himselfe into an Angel of light ; and therefore it is no wonder his Ministers transforme themselves , as though they were the Ministers of righteousnesse . Now if men will consider what those false teachers were , wee shall find them to be no other , but such as under shew of holinesse and piety taught their owne inventions and grolleries , and abused the simplicity of the people for their owne advantage , and brought them into bondage and devoured them , verse 20. as the Phatisees did the Widowes houses , under pretence of their long prayers , which our Saviour Christ sharpely reproves them for , and denounces a woe against them for their so doing ; after the same manner did these false Teachers amongst the Corinthians , who made their owne traditions joyned Members with the Gospel , as if they had had a more fine , neat & eleganter way of gathering of churches , and admitting of Members than Paul and the other Apostles : But the Apostle bids the Corinthians take heed of all such , how glorious soever they seeme to appeare , and tels them they cannot teach the way to Heaven and happinesse better than hee and the other Apostles have done ; and yet neither Saint Paul or any of the Apostles in preaching of the Gospel taught them that they should admit of none to bee joyned Members of the Church , although they beleeved and were baptized , except they walked sometime in fellowship amongst them , that they might have approbation and tryall of their conversation first , and after make a publick confession of their faith before the church , and did give in evidences of the truth of their conversion to the congregation , and entred into a solemne private covenant , and were admitted Members by consent of the church . Not a word of all this in the Gospel that Saint Paul and the other Apostles taught ; and therefore all that teach their new wayes , their new-borne truths , and set up their new lights , are wise above that which is written , and teach otherwise than Christ and his Apostles have taught , or the christians of the Primitive times had received , and therefore ought by the Apostles command , Gal. 1. verse 8. 9. to be accursed . Saint Iohn also in his second Epistle to the Elect Lady , verse 9 , 10. saith , Whosoever transgresseth and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ , hath not God ; hee that continueth in the doctrine of Christ hee hath both the Father and the Sonne : If there come any unto you that bringeth not the doctrine of Christ , receive him not into your house , neither bid him God speed ; for hee that biddeth him God speed , is a partaker of his evill deeds . Now the doctrine that the Independent Ministers teach for the gathering of churches and admitting of members , and joyning and jumbling of them together , was never taught by Christ nor any of his Apostles ; for they themselves confesse it is a new way , and a new ▪ borne truth , and a new light , and therefore not the doctrine of Christ ; and therefore such novelties are not to be entertained nor imbraced , nor the teachers of them , if we will be obedient to Apostolicall precepts : I desire therefore those of the Independent brethren to produce any one testimony , or any one president out of the Word of God , where these things following are taught or have beene practised . First , that although men and women beleeve and are baptized , they are not yet to be admitted as joyned Members till they have walked sometime in fellowship with the church for approbation of their conversation ; this is the first thing ; I desire of the brethren either a precept or an example for this in Gods Word . The second , where it is commanded that those that beleeve and are baptized should not be admitted as Members of the church , whithout a publike confession of their faith before the church . The third , where it is enjoyned , that to their Faith and Baptisme , they should bring in the evidences of the truth of their conversion before they can be capable of their membership . The fourth , where it is commanded that they should enter into a solemn and private covenant before they can be admitted to church-fellowship . The fifth , where it is imposed upon those that beleeve and are baptized , that they should not be received into the church without the consent of the congregation . Sixthly , where it is commanded that the Ministers of the Gospell shall run about from their own places and charges into the sheepfolds of their fellow-shepherds , and separate and pick out all their best sheep and bring them into their own folds , and debar them from all church-fellowship and communicating with the other beleevers in Gods holy Ordinances and Sacraments ; or where ever it is commanded that the Preachers of the Gospel shall gather beleeving Christians from among beleeving Christians , and separate them from the other sheep , into Independent congregations , and shall proclame all that are not thus moulded up after this new modell , to be people out of covenant , and to have no right to the seals of the new covenant , neither they nor their children , though beleevers . All these things I desire the brethren by evident places of the holy Scripture to make good and to confirme , or by any president or example to declare to have been practised either by Christ or his blessed Apostles ; for I look for a law from Christ the King of his church , who was as faithfull in the house of God as Moses was , and hath not left the ordering and disposing of his church to the will of men , but hath commanded the church to hear his voice , who is the great Pastor and Bishop of our souls , and the teacher of his church ; his Word therefore I look for , for a warrant for the ratifying of all these doctrines ; and I have good ground and reason to demand of them a warrant and authority out of Gods Word for what they both teach and practice ; for we are taught by Christ the onely Prophet of his church , that they that serve God after the precepts of men , offer him a vain worship : and it stands with all good reason , that if all humane traditions , though of never so ancient standing , and of never so long antiquity were all cast out of the church , because they had no footing or ground in Gods Word , that all novelties or new inventions of men ( which notwithstanding are imposed upon the people as the ways of God ) should be abrogated and nullified and cast out of the church . It is recorded in holy writ , Ioshua 9. that the Gibeonites deceived Ioshua and the people of Israel , under pretence that they came from a farre country , and for proofe of that they produced their mouldy bread , and their tattered botles and their old shooes , and they taking what they said , pro confesse , and not consulting with the mouth of the Lord ( as it is fully related in that chapter ) were deceived by them , and entred into a League with their enemies : And thus the Papists and Prelates , for these many hundred years , have deluded the world , under pretence of their mouldy antiquities and tattered raggs of traditions , and in all this time they prevailed to mislead the poore people , because they consulted not with the mouth of God , nor examined things by the Word of God and the holy Scripture , as the noble Bereans did . Now whatsoever was written , was written for our instruction , upon whom the ends of the world are come ; and therefore as it was the errour of the Israelites that they received things barely upon report , without consulting with the mouth of God ; and as it was the honour and praise of those noble Bereans , that they searched the Scriptures to see whether the preaching of Paul were according to the holy Scripture : so if we shall receive these new borne truths , these new lights , these new ways without consulting with the living Oracles , we shall offend as the Israelites did in beleeving the Gibeonites upon their words , and shall degenerate and be unlike to those the renowned Bereans , who would not receive Paul's doctrine , though an Apostle , without searching the Scriptures , whether things were so or no , as he taught them : and surely now much more ought we to try all things by the Word in these erroneous times , whosoever they be that preach them unto us , and if they be not evidently proved unto us out of the Scriptures , we may not admit of them ; for it will be not only a sin , but for our immortall shame to be deluded with novelties ▪ much more then it was our ancestors disgrace to be deceived by pretended antiquities . And therefore it is the duty of every Christian seriously to consider with themselves , that these are matters of God , and concerne no lesse then our eternall welfare ; and in th●● regard , we may not call mens ways , Gods ways , but we are to seek for the old ways , Jer. 6 we are to examine Christs and his holy Apostles ways in gathering of Churches and making of Members , and it we find no footstep in all Gods Word of these new ways , we ought to relinquish them and turn again into the pathes that God hath commanded us to walk in , wherein we shall be sure to find rest for our souls and comfort in life and death , and it will be no disgrace to any to be undeceived ; for they are deceived , and that greatly and dangerously , that think or beleeve , that any men mortall can shew or teach a better way to Heaven , or set down a better way of converting souls and of gathering of Churches , and making of Members , and of setting up Christ as King upon his Throne , than that which Christ himself and his blessed Apostles have taught and set down to all posterity ; and from the which rule we ought not to swerve , though an Angel from Heaven should teach us otherwise , Galatians 1. ver . 8. 9. When therefore the Ministers of the Church of England follow Christs and his Apostles way and method in their teaching and for the converting of men and hear only the voyce of Christ their King , and the Christian Beleevers through the Kingdome under their Ministeries , do all faithfully cleave unto the written Word and square both their faith and obedience according to that rule ; there is no just cause why the Independents should proclame them all enemies of Christ and his Kingdome , and such as oppose his royalty ; and preach up themselves and their congregations as the onely people of God and his Saints , and account all those that dissent from them as opposers of Christs government , telling the people in their Sermons , that they come over from beyond the seas , thinking that they would have set up Christ upon his Throne , and that they would have embraced him for their King , and would have established his government , and have gone on in a church-way , and have set up the ways of God ; but they find it otherwiise , that they deny & disclaime and preach against Christs Kingly government , and persecute the wayes of the Lord Christ ; so that they can find more favour from moderate Papists and common Protestants than from them , by which their dealing , say the Brethren , they have so taken off the edge of Gods peoples affection from them , that the Saints and servants of God cannot pray for them , proclaiming themselves the Saints and people of God , as if all the other beleevers through the Kingdome dissenting from them in their opinions , were no Saints nor people of God. Nay , they affirme it in their Pulpits , and in every Pamphlet , that both Ministers and people are enemies of Iesus Christ and his Kingdome , and all such as will not joyne with them in their new wayes : And one of them not long since affirmed unto me , that the church of England was a Strumpet and an arrant Whore , and that shee being once a Whore , could never be presented unto Christ as a chaste Spouse : which was an expression not onely uncivill and unbeseeming a christian , but untrue also ; for grant shee had beene so , shee is now come out of Babylon , and has entred into a publicke covenant against her ; and we reade of Judah , and Samaria , howsoever they had defiled themselves and played the Harlots , yet upon their unfained repentance and true faith in Iesus Christ , and renewing their covenant publickly of new obedience , were presented unto Christ as a chaste Spouse , so that what is impossible with man is possible with God. But this is the generall opinion of the brethren , and howsoever they will not all of them speake it out in plaine words , as some of them doe , yet they preach and practise a separation from all our assemblies and congregations , as from a people not to bee communicated with , and declare that by their deeds , which they will not as yet publish in their writings , nor in expresse words as hee did . And one of the Independent Ministers not long since , denouncing Gods judgements against all those that would not assent unto their new wayes , nor light their candles at their new lights , nor embrace their new-borne truths , told them , that by their standing out against the wayes of God ( for so they suppose these are ) and by their unkind usage of the Saints , and persecuting of them , they would at last drive from amongst them the praying people ( meaning themselves , as if no other prayed but they onely ) and then they might looke that the judgements of God would speedily come downe upon them , as it hapned to the Lutherans in Maydenburge in Germany , who thrust out all the Calvinists out of their Towne , a praying people , and immediatly after , the enemy came upon them with fire and sword and destroyed them all . With these and such like expressions are their preachments stuffed , and to say the truth of many of their Sermons , they are like Taylors cushions , consisting of a hundred severall shreds of various colours , all independent , making a fine shew , but comely no where but in a Taylors shop : and surely such kind of expressions as these are may beseeme their Pulpits , but no grave and learned honest ministers : for they have no just cause to complaine of persecution amongst us , it is a calumny ; neither deale they christianly with us , to accuse us that wee oppose the wayes of God , for we doe not so ; we onely contend for the faith once delivered to the Saints , and against the wayes of Men , and such as were brought into the Church by the cunning craftinesse of some , and thrust upon the people as the Lawes and Ordinances and wayes of God , when they are but their owne inventions , and tend to no edification , but to the trouble and disturbance of Church and State , and such as already have brought a confusion upon us all , and if the Lord do not speedily from Heaven send his helping hand , we can expect nothing but desolation , and all from these divisions , that their new wayes have brought in , and therefore it is high time for all good christians and such as love the peace of Sion , more exactly to examine all these new wayes ; and to put them upon the proofe of them . But that the Brethren should complaine of persecution amongst us , and of evill usage , it is against all reason and humanity , and sheweth little gratitude in them to all the christians both thorow citie and countrey ; for if they remember when they came over , though they had deserted the cause when they had most need of them , they were more honoured then any of those famous and learned Ministers that had undergone the labour and heat of the day , and they were preferred before them all , and setled in the prime Lectures of the Kingdome , and had more honourable maintenance then was usually given to any Lecturers before them ; and therefore they deale not brotherly in any of all their proceedings , nor humanely so to asperse them as they ordinarily doe both publickly and privately . I am confident there is not such a president in the world of humanity as that shewed here to them ; it is well knowne , and their books & practices declare it , that they preach new ways , new-born truths , as they call them , and set up new lights : Now where was it ever heard of either in the Christian or Pagan world , that it was ever permitted unto any Ministers or Preachers to have all the Pulpits in any nation to preach a diverse doctrine , to that which is set up by authority , and such as tends to make a faction and division amongst the people ? I doe most assuredly beleeve that there cannot the like president be produced . Amongst the Heathen , the Iewish Religion in many countries was tolerated ; but they were confined to their owne Synagogues , they might not come in the Heathens Pulpits to preach up the Iewish worship amongst them or to set up another service contrary to the custome of the Nation : It was an abomination to the Egyptians that the Iewes should sacrifice in their land , they would not have suffered them then to have preached up their Religion in all their Pulpits . In Turkey at this day Christians in many places have the liberty of their consciences amongst themselves , and have their places for worship to assemble in ; but they are not so much as permitted to come into their Temples , much lesse to preach up their Religion in their Pulpits . In France the Protestants are permitted to preach , but it is only in such places as are appointed for them , they may not preach in Popish Pulpits , tha● is not permitted unto them . In the Low-Countries there is liberty of conscience , which they so much plead for ( of which afterwards ) and yet the divers sects that are there , are not suffered to preach out of those places assigned unto them , or to preach publikely in any of their Pulpits against the Religion established by authority , neither are they permitted to unchristian them or unchurch them , and publikely and in print to proclame them enemies of Christs government ; and if any should dare attempt such a thing , or go about to disgrace their Ministers and Church-government , or in the least intrench upon the Magistrates authority , they would be made slie like lightning before thunder . And yet the b●ethren ●mong us have the liberty of all the Pulpits th●o●h the kingdome without controule , and vent all their new wayes and their new borne truths ▪ and setup their new lights without any mo●estation , and have all respectfull usage and the onely esteeme of the peo●le , and are more followed than all our learned godly and painfull orthodox Ministers , and yet they cry out of persecution , and unchurch and unchristian us all , and proclame both Ministers and people all enemies of christ and his Kingdome , and count of us little better than of Infidels , and keep our children from Baptism , and debarre us from Communion with them ▪ and exercise a kinde of absolute Lordship over all their brethren , so as Diotrephes never did the like , nor the Pope mo●e , and yet they cry out of persecution against the aints , and lay odious aspe●●ions upon their brethren and fellow . Presbyters , perswading the people that the Presbyterian way will be as bad or worse then tha● of the Prelates . But if we as duly examine the manner of the Independent government , and compare it with the Presbyterian , as we have done the manner of their preaching with theirs we shall finde there is little reason why they should so vilipend the Presbyterian and magnifie their own , and why they should make it so hatefull and odious to the people ; laying aside therefore all p●ejudice , let us examine things with deliberation , and then it will be soon evident , that the Presbyterian government is not as bad or worse than that of the Prelates nor so lordly as that of the Independent government which is also Presbyterian , and they as well Presbyters as their brethren . It is well known that the Prelates assumed and arrogated unto themselves to be the onely Pastors of their Diocesses ▪ and ruled all the Ministers and people under them by their own authority and spoiled all both Ministers and people , and the severall congregations under them of their liberty , and made them all both Ministers and people their vassals and slaves , and from whose● ourts there was no appeal : Whereas the Presbyterian manner of government is not as that of Lords and Masters o●er Subjects and Servants , but social as between equalls , between brethren , friends and collegues , who all judg & are al● judged according to the Word of God , where no congregation is above another congregation , no Minister is above another Minister , but only for order-sake , where every Presbyter is left to enjoy the whole office of a Presbyter , and each congregation to the freedome of a congregation , and what belongs unto them , and they able to performe it , and the classes to corroborate and strengthen them . And if any man be wronged by the Presbytery , he may have the benefit of his Appeal , and be cleared by more righteous Judges ( a course ever followed by the Churches , and agreeable to the light of nature ) so that I say , if men would without a prejudicate opinion weigh and consider all things , and compare the government of the Prelates with that of the Presbyterian , they would speedily be undeceived . And again , if they would compare the Presbyterian Government Dependent with the Presbyterian Government Independent , they would have more honourable thoughts of the one , and a lesse esteem of the other ; for in the Presbyterian Government Independent , they exercise a kind of absolute power and soveraignty amongst themselves in every of their severall Churches or Congregations ; so that if two or three of the Presbyters be malicious or selfe will'd , or corrupt or hereticall , as it happens many times , and by their learning or eloquence , or great abilities of wit and schollership , or by their wealth or power , the congregation perhaps consisting of many poor people , and it may be ignorant , who a●e relieved by them , and whose favour they dare not so feit , if they prevailing with the major part of the congregation ( as commonly the poor people are like a company of wilde Geese , who which way soever their their leader flies they all follow ) I say , if they do once deliver a man to Satan , and will not by any art of perswasion be induced to reverse their un●ighteous sentence , the innocent and wronged man must live under this doome all the dayes of his life without any remedy , and must be held by all the Churches of Christ ( that are after that new modell to whom their sentence is given notice of , as an excommunicated person and shun'd accordingly ; they have no power to absolve or helpe him , and from which he hath no benefit or appeal . And this that I now speak , there is not any of the brethren that is well verst in the grounds of that kind of government , that either will or can deny it : And this rigor to my knowledge both in the low Countries in the severall congregations of the English there , and in some here in England among us was the cause of making so many severall sects ; for when they were cast out of one congregation , for some particular opinion , in the which they differed from them , the other Churches and Congregations of the same mould and profession could not absolve them , nor durst not receive them into Church-fellowship with them , without an attestation from the Church out of which they were excommunicated , of their Christian walking amongst them , or untill they had g ven satisfaction to that Church of which they had been Members , and that they would never be brought unto conceiving that the wrong was theirs who complained as unjustly excommunicated , neither would they relinquish their opinion , as being perswaded it was grounded upon the Word of God ; whereupon they finding others of their own opinion joyned themselves into a new society and congregation , and had a peculiar Church by themselves ; and this hath been one of the chiefest causes of all these rents and divisions we now see every where ; for when they are upon every slight occasion , or for any difference in opinion cast out , then they congregate a new Church by themselves , and turn Pastors . The which , blessed be God , in the reformed churches of France and Germany , hath not yet been seen since the first reformation ; for the governing of Churches by the Common-councell of their Presbyters , where they find such brotherly dealing , and where they have their appeals upon any conceived wrong or injury , and have right and justice done them , makes them willingly submit themselves to that manner of government , without making rents and schismes : And truly if things were but maturely weighed , all men would readily perceive that there is no just ground of reproach to belaid upon the Presbyters , neither would they see any reason , why , in way of disdaine , the Ministers of the Church of England should be more called Presbyterians than the Independent Ministers ; for they also are Presbyterians , and labour to set up a Presbyterian Government as well as the other , and professe in their writings that they contend for the ancient Presbytery , so that they also are Presbyterians as well as the other ; and if the one be made hatefull and formidable to the people , in the judgement of all solid men , the other also may be made as odious and hatefull ; for if that odium and hatred they bring upon the Presbytery , be for the onely feare they have conceived the Presbyters will lord it too much over them and that onely I say , be the occasion that so terrifies the people from that government ; let all men here consider and compare each kind of Presbytery together , both that of the Dependent and that of the Independent ; for if the Independent Presbyters in the infancy and very first beginning and rise of their government assume unto every severall congregation and Presbytery of theirs , an absolute kind of soveraignty and jurisdiction from which there is no appeal , and if they al●eady take upon them to unchurch all Churches but their own , and proclame all the Ministers and people , but those of their own congregations , profest enemies of Christs Kingdome ; what would they do if they were once established by authority in their severall Jurisdictions and Assemblies ? and if now they will admit of none into their severall Assemblies , though never so eminent beleevers , but upon their owne conditions , and unlesse they will be admitted members upon such termes as they propound , without either precept or president out of the Word of GOD for their so doing ( which is the greatest tyranny of the world ) how would these men lord it if their government were once established by Parliament ? It is well known and can sufficiently be proved , that godly Christians and people of approved integrity and of holy conversation , against whom they had no exception either for doctrine or manners , and who offered themselves to be admitted members upon their own conditions , yet were not suffered to be joyned members , onely because they were poor ; and this very reason was given unto them for their not admission , that they would not have their Church over ▪ burdened with poore . And others desiring that their Children might be baptized in their Congregations , and going to the Ministers of those Assemblies to entreat this favour , that their children might be baptized among them . For Answer , it was told them , that they could baptize none but such as were infants of their joyned Members ( which is their practice ) and wished them first to be made joyned Membert in one of their Churches : Whereupon they thought that there was no Congregation fitter for them to joyne to , than to that Pastors Assembly that had given them this counsell , and therefore they applyed themselves unto him , and desired that they might bee admitted joyned Members : for answer , it was replyed , that the congregation of which he was Pastor , consisted of great personages , Knights , Ladies and rich Merchants ; and such people as they being but poore , could not walke so suitably with them ; withall hee said , he could doe nothing without the consent of the congregation ; wherefore hee perswaded them to joyne themselves to some other congregation among poore people , where they might better walke , and more comfortably in fellowship with them , so that the last newes I heard of this busines , was that the children were neither baptized nor the poore men admitted to be joynt Members of that congregation . What their Ministers have done since I know not , but I well perceive , it is as great a difficuly for a poore man to get into some of their congregations , as to get into Suttons-Hospitall ; and that I conceive to be the onely occasion that makes some walke so long in many congregations before they come to be admitted members ; for if they be rich they are speedily received , nay invited to be Members . It is too well knowne , that many godly and holy people have left their native countrey , and transported themselves over into New ▪ England , where this government is set up , onely that they might enjoy the Ordinances there in their purity ; they were beleevers before they went , and were baptized , and such as were knowne before they went thither to be the deare servants of God ; but when they come there ( especially if they be poore ) they make them walke some a yeare , some more , yea , some six or seven before they can be admitted Members of their Congregations , and they baptize none of those children that are borne there before their Parents be joyned Members ; and except they will in all things conforme themselves to their owne conditions , they shall never be admitted . And some time the man onely is admitted , and his wife left out still to walke ; and some time the wife is admitted and the man left out still to walke , and both these notwithstanding are beleevers and baptized ; and after with a great deale of difficulty , they are admitted to be Members ; a very small offence will be sufficient to cast them out againe , if they be poore . But for stories of this nature , I doe not love to multiply them ; but I have heard many of this kind from those places , and from such as have beene in New-England , and men both then and now no way evilly affected either to the place or people , serving God there . But it is too notorious , they lord it there over Gods poor Clergies in the superlative degree , and every man that hath but eyes in his head may see it here in England in their congregations , what difference they make between the rich and poor , and that they have the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ in respect of persons , a sinne in Saint James his time highly blamed in Christians , James 2. And as in their carriage towards the poor , they are very lofty , and look for great observance and attendance from them wheresoever they come , so likewise a little thing will displease them ; if they speak a word amisse , it is enough to be cast out of the Congregation ; presidents of this nature might be brought many : And if all this be not to lord it over Gods Clergies , I know not what it is ; to admit of none , though beleevers , and already baptized , but such as will come in upon their own termes , and keep out the poor either altogether , or as long as pleaseth them , without any other reason but because they are poor , and cast them out again upon every slender occasion ; I say , if all this be not a most diabolicall tyranny and lording it over Gods Clergies , I referre it to any moderate man to judge of ; and if to unchurch all Churches but their own , and at one blast to proclame them all enemies of Christ and his Kingdome , and to deny all Church-fellowship with them , be not more than a Diotrephian , Prel●ticall and Papall Authority , there was never any in the world , and if this be not to lord it over Gods Clergies , there was never any known . Now I say , if the Independent Presbyters do so timely begin their absolute lording of it , what would they do if their government were established by authority ? Their Ministery and government is farre different from that of Christ and his holy Prophets and Apostles ; for they invited all the poor to come in and to buy milk , yea , to come in and buy milk without money , Isaiah 55 〈◊〉 and Saint Paul for the encouraging of the poor to come in , ●aith , not many mighty not many noble , but the meane and contemptible things hath the Lord made choyce of ; intimating unto the poore , that they have as good right to Heaven as the greatest and chiefest ; and our Saviour Christ saith , come unto me all ye that are weary and heavy laden , and ye shall find rest unto your soules : Our Saviour hath no respect of persons , but the poor are with him as acceptable as the rich , if they be weary and heavy laden with their sinnes ; for that is all the condition that Christ requires , in all that desire to be admitted Members of his Church . Now when these Presbyters already make so great difference between the poor and the rich , and between beleevers and beleevers , as they will admit none but at their own times , and upon their own conditions , I do conceive that this is a most tyrannically lording it over Gods Clergies and Inheritance ; which when they dayly do it , and the Presbyters of the Church of England do it not , it is most apparent that their rule and domination is more prelaticall and more to be feared than that of the Presbyters of the Church of England ; for from the Independent Presbyters they can never expect any appeal for releife and redresse , whatsoever wrong or injury they have sustained by them ; and therefore there is no just cause why any should so traduce the Presbytery of the Church of England , as to think they will lord it over the people , from whom they may ever expect farre better measure than ever they can from the Independent Presbytery , which if it should once be established , would tend to nothing else but to enslave the whole Kingdome , and to bring in a confusion upon both Church and State. But now it will not be amisse before the conclusion , as we have compared the Presbyters of the Church of England with the Presbyters Independent , both in regard of their doctrine and discipline ; so now likewise here to paragonate them together , in their proceedings for the advancement of Christs Kingdome , that all men may see in that regard also , which of their endeavours tend most to the advancement of the Kingdome of Jesus Christ , and which of them ought to be preferred before other , and which of them doth more really and truly tend not onely to Gods glory , but to the peace also of the Church and State : For the Presbyters of the Church of England , they 〈◊〉 and endeavour , as there is but one body , one spirit , one hope , one Lord , one faith , one baptism , one God and Father over over all , who is above all , and through all , and one true Christian Religion , Eph. 4. so that this onely may be established through the three Kingdomes ; and that all erroneous ways of worshipping and serving God , and that tends to lead men to perdition , and make disturbance in Church and State , may not publikely be tolerated : The Independents on the contrary , both publikely and privately , and in all their bitter railing and intolerable Pamphlets , as that of the Compassionate Samaritan , the Storming of Antichrist , and that of the Arraignment of Mr Persecution , & in many more of their scurrilous writings , plead for a toleration of all Religions ( under pretence of liberty of conscience ) whatsoever they be , as Judaisme , Turcisme , Popery , Paganisme , and all manner of sects , and for the confirming of this their diabolicall tenent , they bring in the example of the heathen Nations , who suffered all Religions amongst them ; and the example of Poland , Transsylvania and Holland , those pantheons of all Religions , add tell us of the Parable where Christ commanded that the Tares and the Wheat should be suffered to grow together till the harvest , the day of judgement : And use or abuse rather some other places of Scripture , which as they conceive make all for a toleration of all Religions . To all which their pretences , I shall at this time briefly anwer , after I have set down some grounds out of holy Scripture , and produced some examples of Gods dear children , friends and servants out of the same , which must be the warrant of all Christians to follow to the end of the world ; for whatsoever was written before was written for our learning , 1 Cor. 10. Rom. 15. and by the Word of God , and from the example of Gods servants , we are ever taught , that diversity of Religions amongst Christians ought not to be tolerated . And first to begin with Abraham , the Father of the faithfull , and his seed , whose examples , all that are his and their children , ought to set before their eyes for imitation : The Lord called Abraham , as it is in Joshua 24. out of his Father Terah's house , and from his kindred , when they served other gods and made a Covenant with him , as it is at large set down in the 12. of Genesis , and in divers other places of the same book ; and in speciall in the 17. of Genesis , verse 1 , 2 , 3 , &c. where the Lord reneweth his Covenant with him and his seed , and sets down the conditions of his Covenant with Abraham , which was , that Abraham should walk before him and be perfect , and that then he would be his God all sufficient to provide for him and protect him wheresoever he came ; which covenant the Lord ever kept with Abraham and his seed , delivering them out of the hands of all their enemies , when they served him according to the conditions of the covenant , walking uprightly before him ( as he will do to all his children to the end of the world , walking in father Abraham's steps ) and of Abraham the Lord says this , in the 18. of Genesis ver . 17 , 18 , 19. Shall I hide from Abraham that which I doe . seeing that Abraham shall become a great and a mighty Nation , and all the Nations of the earth shall be blessed in him ? for I know him , that he will command his children and houshold after him , that they shall keep the way of the Lord , to do Iustice and Iudgement , that the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him , &c. In these words , we have Gods testimony of Abraham in the which he gives this witnesse of him , that he would command his children and houshold after him , that they should keep the way of the Lord to do justice and judgement : Then it is manifest , that Abraham tolerated neither in his children , nor in his houshold any Religion contrary unto that that God had taught him , nor suffered no idolatry nor Sects in his family ; for this had not been to walke uprightly before God , for it had been unjust dealing with God so to have done ; for Abraham and his seed were to walk perfectly and sincerely before God , and therefore he would never tolerate all Religions or the worshipping of a false God , or the worship of the true God after a false manner , which also is Idolatry , for this had not been to do justice and judgement ; but Abraham set up the true worship of God wheresoever he came , as the whole story of his life doth abundantly declare : And so did Isaac after him , and Jacob after him , as in the 33. of Genesis doth appear , where Jacob said unto his houshold and to all that were with him , put away the strange gods that are among you , and be clean , and change your garments , and let us arise and go up to Bethel , and I will make there an Altar unto God , who answered me in the day of my distresse and was with me in the way which I went ; and they gave unto Iacob all the strange gods that were in their hands , and Iacob hid them under the Oak that was at Sechem , and the terror of God was upon the cities which were round about them , and they did not pursue after the sons of Iacob . In these words we have a president for imitation , with the fruit and benefit that doth redound to all those people and Nations that set up the true worship of God , and root out all Idolatry and false worship out of their families and Countries ; for Jacob gives no toleration in his house nor amongst his people for all Religions , or for any other but that which God himselfe had appointed ; he sets up the true worship of God , and that onely within his Jurisdiction , and buries all the Idols , of what price and how rich soever they were , and he found the comfort and benefit of this his so doing ; for the Lord for this his faithfull service , blessed him and protected him from the fury of all his provoked enemies ; for the terror of God was upon them all , so that they durst not pursue him . And if we take notice in our reading of the holy Scriptures , we shall find and that through the whole Word of God that the Lord ever followed that people , and those Kings and governours and their whole Kingdomes and Countries with speciall blessings and singular favours that purged their Country from idolatry and all false worships , and struck a terror into all their enemies round about them ; neither did they ever purge their Countries from Idolatry , and root out Idolaters , but the anger of the Lord was presently appeased by it ; and it is alwayes recorded to the eternall praise and honour of those Kings , Rulers and Judges that were most forward in reformation , and that set more throughly upon that good work of reformation ; and those that did things but to the halves in reformation , have not so honourable a testimony in holy Scripture as the other : and that God hath ever been pleased when Idolatry hath been rooted out , and Idolaters put to death , there be many presidents of it in the Word of God. Amongst others , that in the 32. of Exodus , how highly was God displeased there with the making of that Calf ? and how well was he pleased when execution was done upon the contrivers and authors of that Idolatry , that place sufficiently declareth ; yea , in the 13. of Deuteronomie , the Lord declaring how much he detesteth Idolatry and all false worship , giveth a dispensation to children for disobedience to their parents ( who by his law they are bound to obey ) in Gods matters ; so that if those of their nighest relations should go about to intice any to Idolatry , or to the worshipping of false gods , or the true God in a false manner , or should endeavour but to bring in another Religion than that the Lord had appointed , that then they should bring them forth and have justice done against them ; so that God abhorreth that any Religion amongst his own people should be tolerated or set up besides that he himselfe hath commanded ; and he had forbid in his law , that any man should make to themselves any graven Image , or set up any way of worshipping him but that which he himself had ordained and injoyned , and commanded that they that should attempt any such thing should be put to death . We see likewise what Ioshua did according to the commandment of God , who ought to be a pattern to all Christians , and all Christian Magistrates , chap. 24. verse 14 , 15 , 16. Now therefore ( saith he ) fear the Lord and serve him in sincerity and in truth , and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood and in Aegypt , and serve ye the Lord ; and if it seem evill unto you to serve the Lord , choose you this day whom ye will serve , whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood , or the gods of the Amorites , in whose land ye dwell ; but for me and my house , we will serve the Lord : And the people answered and said , God forbid that we should forsake the Lord and serve other gods ; for the Lord our God is he that brought us up and our fathers out of the land of Aegypt , out of the house of bondage , &c. Here we may observe first , that Ioshua injoynes them to serve the Lord in sincerity and in truth , and that they might do that , to put away all their idols ; he gives no toleration of all Religions : and the like may be said of Ioshua , Ioshua 24. 15. and that they might with the more alacrity yeeld obedience to God's command , he sets his own example before their eyes , with his resolution , which was , that both he and his houshold would serve the Lord onely and set up his worship , and all the people likewise assented to do the same , and gave their reason why they would serve the Lord , and tolerate no other Religion , because say they , the Lord hath brought us up out of the land of Aegypt and out of the house of bondage and made us his peculiar people , and therefore they resolved to serve him onely , and tolerate no other service amongst them but that which God himself had commanded and appointed : And this example of Ioshua and the people of Israel is left to all the people of God , to all ages for imitation , whose duty it is to set up the true worship of God only amongst them , and none but that which Christ their Redeemer , King and Law-giver hath injoyned them ; and therefore all such as would have all Religions tolerated , do exceedingly forget themselves , and are highly unthankfull to Christ their King and Redeemer . And if we look into the story of the Judges , the book following that of Ioshua , when this generation was dead , and that they had forgot their covenant , and began to tolerate all Religions amongst them , they brought down all those plagues upon themselves by it , that were written in the law of Moses ; and for no other cause , saith the holy Scripture , but for that they set up those Religions the heathens had served their gods by , as is manifest from the sixth chapter ; for when the people cryed unto the Lord because of the Midianites ; the Lord sent a Prophet unto them first , who told them that the cause of all the judgements was , because they had not obeyed the voyce of the Lord , but had served the gods of the nations which he had forbidden them : and afterwards he sent an Angel unto Gideon , and commanded him to break down the Altar of Baal which his father had made , and to cut down the Grove that was by it , and to set up an Altar to the Lord : In the first place Gideon was enjoyned to root out idolatry , and then to set up Gods true worship onely ; here we finde no toleration of any Religion but the true Religion ; when they set upon the work of reformation , and when the men of the City made inquiry after him that had broken down the Altar and cut down the Grove , and would have put him to death , it is related , that Ioash the Father of Gideon said to all those that stood against him , Will ye plead for Baal ? will ye save him ? he that will plead for him let him be put to death whiles it is yet morning , if he be a god let him plead for himselfe , because one hath cast down his Altar : Here we finde no toleration of Baal's Religion , but that they that would plead for him should be put to death ; and surely , those that will plead for a toleration of all Religions , do no lesse than fight against God. But now let us see what Elias did , 1 King. 18. ver . 21. ( who was counted as the Chariots and Horse-men of Israel ) with Baals Priests , and what he said to all those of his times , How long ( saith he to the people ) will ye halt between two Religions ? if the Lord be God follow him , but if Baal be God then follow him . The holy Prophet would not admit of a toleration of all Religions , but when God had miraculously manifested from Heaven that Elias his Religion was the true Religion , and which God in his holy Word had established , all Baals Priests were put to death , and that by Elias his command , who said , Take the Prophets of Baal , let none of them escape ; and they took them , and Elias took them and brought them down to the Brook Kishon and slew them there . And so upon all reformations , all other Religions were cast out but the true Religion , as we may see through the whole Scripture , as in the stories of the Kings and Chronicles , and those of Nehemiah and Ezra and through all the Prophets ; and the Lord in the second of Ieremiah complaineth against his people , That they had forsaken the fountain of living water , that is , they had forsaken the true God and served other gods , and forsaken their maker , and had been more unconstant than the very Heathen , who had not forsaken their idoll gods ; and therefore for this their Rebellion and ingratitude , the Prophet denounces all those plagues that were written in the Law against them , as all the other Prophe●s did : for there is not any sinne in all the old Testament that the Lord more complaines of than that of Idolatry , and the toleration of many Religions amongst them , as is most abundantly set down both in Isaiah , Ieremiah and Ezechiel , Daniel , and in all the other Prophets , all which were written for our learning ; so that if the people of God shall imitate them in their sinnes , they must look to partake with them in their plagues ; for the tolerating of all Religions would be a just provoking of the Lord our God to anger now , as it was then . And we have sad experience already , what the tolerating of the idolatry of the Masse , that Dagon of Ginger-bread , hath brought upon us ; for God will not be mocked ; if God be God , and the Christian Religion of the reformed Churches , and which we finde in the holy Scriptures , and which was confirmed by so many signes and wonders , and miracles , be the true religion , then let that and that onely be s●t up amongst Christians , and no other tolerated ; for if they be , they will speedily bring the plagues of God upon the Kingdome , and confusion upon us all ; as we may well perceive by the suffering of them but a few yeers , what good effects they will produce : for toleration of all Religions cannot be pleasing unto God no more in our times , than it was amongst his ancient people the Jewes , and in the Primitive Churches ; and therefore all those that plead for a toleration of all Religions are no friends of Christ nor Lovers of Religion , pretend what they will ; for neither Abraham , Jsaac , nor Iacob , nor any of the Prophets nor holy men of God would suffer it , neither would the Apostles ever endureit , but in all their writings they give especiall charg to all the people to take heed of all the false Teachers of their time , and forewarne them to take heed of them in all succeeding ages , ever describing them by their crafty dealings , that they should come in sheeps cloathing , and in all seeming holinesse and fained simplicity , and therefore that they are the more to be avoyded : And Paul writing to the Galatians , in the fifth Chapter , wisht and desired that the false Teachers were cut off ; so farre were the holy Apostles from tolerating all Religions , as in all their Epistles they inveigh against them , and that continually as false Apostles and Deceivers , and command all Christians to receive no other Religion but that which they had taught them , Gal. 1. and bids the people come out of Babylon ; and tels them there is no fellowship with light and darkenesse ; and surely if all the Prophets and Apostles ●id command all the people of God to come out of Babylon , they never gave leave to any Christians to set up Babylon amongst them , and to tolerate the confusion and mingling together of all Religions ; for this would be a thing not onely against the Scripture and revealed will of God , but against all solid reason and sound judgement . Nay wee see that Christ himselfe in writing to the seven Churches in Asia , and in them to all Christians in the world , hee blames the Angel of the Church of Pergamus , and that of Thyatira , in the second chapter , in these words , To the Angel in the Church of Pergamus , write these things , saith hee that hath the sharpe sword with two edges , I know thy workes and where thou dwellest , even where Satans seate is , and thou holdest fast my Name , and hast not denyed my faith , even in those dayes wherein Antipas my faithfull Martyr , was slaine among you , where Satan dwelleth : but I have a few things against thee , because thou hast them there that hold the doctrine of B●alam , who taught Balak to cast a stumbling ▪ blocke before the children of Israel , and to eat things sacrificed unto Idols , and to commit Fornication : so hast thou them also that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans , which thing I hate : repent , or else I come unto thee quickly , and will fight against thee with the sword of my mouth . And unto the Angel of the Church of Thyatira write , these things saith the Sonne of God , who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire , and his feete like fine brasse , I know thy workes and charity , and service , and faith , and thy patience , and thy workes , and the last to be more than the first ; notwithstanding I have a few things against thee , because thou sufferest that woman Iezabel which calleth her selfe a Prophetesse to teach and seduce my servants , to commit Fornication , and to eat things sacrificed unto Jdols , &c. and in the 3. chap. ver . 14. Vnto the Angel of the Church of Laodicea write these things , saith the Amen , the faithfull and true Witnesse●c ; the beginning of the creation of God ; I know thy workes that thou art neither cold nor hot , J would thou wert cold or hot ; so then because thou art luke-warme , and neither cold nor hot , J will spue thee out of my mouth , &c. Out of the which places , it is sufficiently manifest , that it is ● thing highly displeasing unto God , that his people should give a tolerátion of any Religion but that hee hath established ; and those that labour for a toleration of all Religions must needs be luke-warme , neither hot nor cold , which is an evill the Lord is so much displeased with , as he tels them that hee will spue them out of his mouth ; and surely there is nothing that favours more of licentiousnesse and carelesnesse in Religion , and want of zeale to Gods glory in any men , then when they would bring in a toleration of all Religions : And many of them can report , that there is no Religion in Holland , where there is a toleration of all Religions , though it is well knowne that there are men in that Countrey of the native Dutch people , that are as zealous for the true Religion as any of them , and are as much desirous that tolerations of all religions amongst them were not there permitted , as they now wish a toleration of all Religions were suffered here amongst us ; for they find by experience that it is an occasion of all prophanesse , and if they should have there the like occasions of civill combustions as wee have , through Gods displeasure for our sinnes and ingratitude towards him here in England , I am afraid they would find the toleration of all those religions amongst them , would prove an intolerable thing to them , if not the cause of the ruine of their whole Countrey . The Lord divert his judgements from them , and grant that they may never taste of the miseries that wee now are acquainted with , but for tolerating of Popery and Arminianisme , and the prelaticall faction ; and without doubt if the suffering but of these three has so displeased God , the tolerating of all would give him a just cause of his more hot indignation . But now to answer to their Objections in order ; the Heathens say the Independents , suffered Abraham , Isaac and Iacob , and all the Patriarchs and the people of Israel where ever they came to exercise their owne religion , and tolerated all religions amongst them . For answer , let them take notice , that no thanke is due to the Heathens for it ( as we may see in Genesis the 12. chap. and the 20. chap. and chap. 26. ) but onely the glory of that is to bee ascribed to God , who restrained them when they intended evill against them ; for hee appeared to some of them in visions , and commanded them not to touch his anoynted people , and forbad them to doe his Prophets any harme , and by the speciall blessings that hee rained downe upon his people , and by his miraculous preserving of them in fiery furnaces and in Lyons dens , from the fury of Savage-beasts , & delivering them so often out of the hands of all their enemies , he struck such a terror into the heathen nations , that they durst not oppresse his people , so that the singular providence of God , who watcheth over them alwayes for good , was their shield and Buckler ; so that what they did in tolerating them and their Religion , was not of their good nature , but it was Gods speciall favour towards his own peculiar people , and for the maintenance of his owne cause , and that Religion which they had learned from him ; and therefore those heathenish examples are not for Christians imitation to tolerate all Religions , who are bound to obey Gods commandements , and to follow the example of Abraham ▪ Isaac and Iacob , and all the holy Prophets and Apostles , who all of them have condemned the toleration of all Religions amongst his people , and have denounced Gods judgements against them for so doing . Againe , wee must consider the principles of the heathen Philosophers , and the practice of all wicked godlesse Politicians in all ages ; for the Philosophers , though they were sufficiently convinced by their naturall reason , that there was a God , and that this God was the Author of all good , and the punisher of all evill , and therefore that he ought to be feared and served of all nations and people , yet because they by that naturall light of understanding ( which was but darkenesse in them ) could not comprehend what that infinite Majesty and divine being and God-head was , and were not in themselves able to set downe a description of him , nor how to conceive of that invisible Deity , nor what worship would be most pleasing unto him ( which they could never doe without God himselfe had revealed himselfe unto them as hee did to his owne people ) they served him after some traditions they had received from their Fathers , and left all nations , cities and families to serve God as they thought best , and according to their owne vaine imaginations ; and for the Atheisticall Politicians of all ages , all Religions are one to them , who never regard any one more than another , and therefore tolerate all for their owne base ends , and thinke it best for the enriching of all their countries ( as the experience of all ages and histor es can sufficiently witnesse ) and many of them doe not refraine to say , that Religion was onely brought into the world out of policy , and to keepe people in awe ; so that God of his infinite goodnesse having the ordering of all mens hearts in his hands , did so dispose of all things , that by their owne principles they should give toleration of all Religions in their severall countries and jurisdictions , so that his people being scattered here and there through other nations by their sinnes , yet found this favour , that they also for the most part enjoyed the liberty of their Religion ( though they met sometimes with most hot persecutions ) but all this is ever to be ascribed to God alone ( as I said before ) and to his overswaying providence and guidance , who ever preserved those that trust in him , and served him according to his revealed will , though it be in Babylon it selfe , and therefore it is not to be attributed to the good nature of the Heathen , neither would that toleration now be tolerable in Christians , who have learned Christ otherwise than to set up any Religion but that which he the King and Prophet of his Church hath taught them . But now I will briesly answer to what they pretend out of Scripture , and runne through the severall Objections drawne from thence . And first to begin with that of Ioshua 21. where hee faith , choose you this day whom you will serve , &c. In these words , by their favour , there is no toleration of many Religions , for he was to follow the Law of God , and not to decline from it , either to the right hand or to the left , Ioshua 1. and by that Law hee was forbid to suffer or tolerate any Religion but that which Moses had taught them ; and therefore those words were a meere scrutiny , and to find out those that were idolaters to punish them , as any wise governour may at any time make use of the like Querie , to find out men not well affected to Religion , or to their Countrey , that by this meanes they may be brought to condigne punishment : As if now any Officer or Commander under the Parliament should say to a company of men that hee was jealous of , being desirous to discover them and find them out , choose you this day who you will serve , whether the King or the Parliament , but for my selfe and my house wee will serve the Parliament : would not any by and by gather that hee spake this onely to find out Malignants to punish them ? Even so Joshua a wise and religious governour did the same , not that hee ever intended to give them a toleration of all religions , for that had beene against the Law of God , and against their owne example ; for in the 22. of Ioshua , we reade that because the people had built but an Altar on the other side of Iordan , they intended forthwith to make warre upon them ( a president to teach Christians that they may fight for their religion ) and they had gone out to battell against them and had destroyed them , had they not given a satisfactory answer that they had no intent to bring in any innovation in Religion ; and therefo●e this is but a poore cavill : Now for that they pretend out of Gamali●ls speech , Acts 5. verse 38 , 39. where hee saith , Refraine from these men ( speaking of the Apostles ) and let them alone , for if this counsell or this worke be of men , it will come to nought ; but if it be of God , ye cannot overthrow it , lest happily ye be found fighters against God : Ergo , all Religions are to be tolerated . This Objection doth sufficiently shew that our brethren the Independents that thus argue , may well be made fellowes of Gotham Colledge , as knowing not as yet their Primer in politicks , nor their Catechisme in divinity : For who knowes not that it is as easie with God who is of infinite wisedome , out of mens foolishnesse to procure safety for his owne people , as it was for him , out of Achitophels wisdome to bring destruction upon himselfe , and to turne his wisdome into foolishnesse ; for that which Gamaliel spake was neither as a wise man , nor as a Christian ; for he would never be thought a wise man that hearing of any commotion in the Kingdome , and had the power in his hands to suppresse it , should say , if it be of men it will come to naught , but if it be of God , if we shal oppose it , we shall be found fighters against God , and therefore let us let them alone ; would not all the world think this man a Ninny , that should thus speak , and a man unworthy to sit in counsell in any State ? whereas a wise man if he hears of any insurrection , he will forthwith use the weapons of his right hand , and first seek God by prayer and in his Ordinances , and then betake himselfe to the weapons of the left hand and use the sword to suppresse them ; and this man would be thought a wise man that should so do ; and not he that with Gamaliel should say , if it be of men it will come to nought , and so let them go on to do mischiefe : Neither did he answer as a Christian ; for what Christian that should hear of any new monstrous Religion newly printed and newly come forth ( as there are many at this day to be sold about Town and Country for pence a piece ) and should understand that some of those ancient heresies were againe revived , as that of the Arians , Pelagians , or Nestorians , should say let them alone , for if they be of men they will come to nought , but if they be of God ye cannot overthrow them , lest you will be found fighters against God , and so let the seducers go on without questioning them , or suppressing their heresies ; would not every man that hath any fear of God in him say , surely that man that should thus answer , did not speak like a Christian ? for a good Christian like the good Bereans would say come let us sit down and examine these new doctrines newly brought into the world by the holy Scriptures , and let us follow the example of the Apostles , Acts 15. in that assembly and search the Scriptures , and if we finde them not to be grounded on the Word of God , nor to be of God , let us forthwith as God himselfe hath commanded , suppresse them , and not say , without examining of them , as wise Gamaliel , let them alone ; that was not God's method ; for God sent his people to the law and to the testimony , Isaiah 8. and proclames that all that speak not according to them , it is because there is no light in them , and that all opinions not grounded on the Word , are but darknesse and error , and therefore they are not to be tolerated or suffered ; so that for any man to gather a toleration of all Religions from Gamaliels speech , is but to prove himselfe a mee● groll ; and as little to the purpose is that they urge out of the words of our Saviour , Matthew 22. where answering the Sadduces hee saith , Ye do erre not knowing the Scripture nor the power of God , verse 29 , From whence the Independent brethren conclude a toleration of all Religions ; for our Saviour , say they , onely convinced them of their error , and yet tolerated them and suffered them to enjoy the liberty of their conscience . I have heard many magnifie our Independent brethren for their great learning , some affirming that they were scholers from their mothers wombe , and for my part I beleeve it ; for ignorance of God and of his holy Word came with all men from their mothers wombe , and if such interpretations of Scripture and such illations from them , as these be , proceed not from the ignorance of God and of the Scripture , never any did ; for what learned man that knows what Christs office was in taking humane nature upon him , when he became a Mediator and the high Priest of our redemption , would argue as these men do ? especially when Christ hath so often in holy Scripture professed of himselfe that he came then to save those th t were lost , and not to judge the world ; for he hath left that imployment till his next comming , when I am most assured these men will have a great deale to answer for , for so abusing the holy Scriptures to maintaine their own baggatellies : Besides , Christ came to keep the law for us which he himselfe had given unto his people and took no way the office of a Judge upon him , but in scourging out the buyers and sellers out of the Temple , that I remember , and saith , that he came not to break the bruised reed , or quench the smoking slax , onely he had declared his laws unto his people , Malachy the fourth , by his servant Moses , and the execution of these laws was put into the hands of the Elders of Israel , whose place it was to punish all seducers , and who should have performed that work of justice which our Saviour declaring doth not give liberty for the tolerating of all Religions , which was against the revealed will of God ; and therefore they that will out of this place argue a toleration of all Religions , may as well conclude , that Christ tolerated adultery and injustice , and all manner of wickednesse , because our Saviour Christ said unto those that brought the Woman to him , that was found in the act of uncleannesse , he that is without sinne amongst you , let him cast the first stone , and when her accusers were gone , said unto the Woman , Woman where are thy accusers , goe thy way and sinne no more . Ergo , Christ gave a toleration for all Adulterers : and when the young man in the 16. of Luke came to our Saviour and complayning of unjustice done unto him by his brother , and desiring him to speake unto his brother that he would divide the inheritance with him , to whom our Saviour answered , man , who made me a Judge or a Divider among you ? ergo , Christ gave toleration of all injustice . And because our Saviour Christ said in that Parable of the good seed that was sowne and of the tares that sprung up , that they should let them alone till the harvest , an argument which they much depend on : Ergo , all wicked men are to be tolerated , and no justice to be done upon them till Dooms-day , and they are to live without molestation , and the Magistrate ought not to meddle with them , because Christ said , let the good corne and the tares grow together till the harvest ; who would not admire to heare any man thus to argue , that there should be such either folly or wickednesse in the heart of man , to abuse the holy Scriptures for their owne ends ? And who knowes not , that it is concluded amongst all learned men , that Symbolica Theologia non est argumentutiva ; and that the Parable inferres no more , but that it is not for any private man to take upon him the Magistrates office , or rashly to intrude himselfe into the place of Rulers and Governours : But truly all such consequences may as well be gathered from every one of the above specified Scriptures , as they gather from our Saviours words to the Sadduces , and from the Parable of Christ for the tolerating of all Religions ; and therefore all such argumentations as these are but poore props to uphold their Tenent : for God hath given us that are christians both the Law and the Gospel , by which we ought to be guided in the serving of him , and by the which all Christians are directed what course to take in the punishing of vice , and for the suppressing of errors and offenders , whether they be delinquents in doctrine or manners : And although Christians by the Gospel are freed from the ceremoniall Law , yet wee are not freed from the substance of it ; for he that said to the Israelites , be ye holy as I am holy , saith also to all Christians , be ye holy as I am holy , 1 Pet. 1. so that although the ceremony be abolished , yet the substance remaineth still in force ; and although the rigor of the judiciall law be taken away , and Christians are not tyed to that manner of administration of justice , yet the equity of that law doth still continue , and righteous judgements is every where amongst all Christians to be executed , and satisfaction to be made to all such as have been unjustly damnified ; and although we are freed from the curse , malediction and coaction of the morall law , yet we are not freed from the obedience of it ; so that whatsoever was commanded in it to the Israelites , or forbidden them , the same is both commanded and forbidden to all Christians to the ends of the world , and whatsoever was death by the law of God and nature then , for ought I know ought to be punished with death now amongst Christians , as blasphemors , wizards , witches , idolaters , and all such as despise Moses law ; under the mouth of two or three witnesses , if they be people within the pale of the Church , and make profession of the Christian Religion , for Christians have nothing to do with those that are without to judge them except they offend against the civill and municipall laws of the Country and against the laws of nations and nature when they live amongst them : for Christ came not to change the morall law , but to ratifie it in all things . And although the Sabbath be changed in respect of the day , yet for the holinesse of the first day of the week ( which is the Christians Sabbath ) and which is in place of it , I am confident it ought most carefully to be observed , and that the whole day ought in all sanctity and holinesse to be kept ; and besides the fourth Commandment for the sanctification of a seventh day , we have the example of the Primitive Christians and blessed Apostles , who alwayes had their meetings on the first day of the week , and spent the whole day in the duties of piety and charity ; for in the 20 , of the Acts we read , that on the first day of the week the Disciples came together to break bread ; that was for the hearing of the Word , and for the administration of the Sacraments , and for the exercising of all holy duties ; and that Paul preached there untill midnight , and that when Eutichus was fallen downe with sleepe , Paul restored him to life againe to all their comforts ; so that here we have one president , that the whole Lords day wasspent by all those Christians in the workes of piety and charity . Againe , in the first of the Revelations Saint John saith , that hee was in the Spirit on the Lords day , that is , the first day of the weeke , called by Saint Iohn the Lords day , and there the Angel preached unto him that day , and commanded Saint Iohn to take so much of his Sermon by writing , as God in his wisedome thought fit to reveale unto his Church ; and hee that shall diligently reade what is there written , will gather that the whole day was taken up by Saint Iohn , and spent in hearing , and writing and meditating of what hee had heard ; for without doubt Saint Iohn made it his whole dayes worke to be spiritually imployed ; and as the holy Communion is called the Lords Supper , and all the time of that action is holily to be imployed , as being ordained by Christ himselfe to that end ; even so the Lords day being a day dedicated unro Christ , and ordained by him for holy duties , and for the hearing of the Word , and for the administration of the Sacraments and prayer , the whole day ought both privately and publikely to bee taken up in the imployments and workes of piety and charity , as hearing , reading , meditating , prayer , repetition of Sermons in their Families , and catechizing and instructing their children and servants , singing of Psalmes , in visiting the sicke and them that are in prison ; relieving the poore and necessitated , &c. These examples of the Primitive Christians are for our imitation , for so Saint Paul in the third of the Philippians in the 17. verse saith ; Brethren , bee followers together of mee , and marke them which walke so , as ye have us for an example ; for our conversation is in Heaven . And in the 4. chapter , verse 8. hee saith , Finally brethren , whatsoever things are true , whatsoever things are honest , whatsoever things are just , whatsoever things are pure , whatsoever things are lovely , whatsoever things are of good report ; if there be any vertue , if there be any prayse , thinke on these things : Those things which ye have both learned and received , and heard , and seene in me ▪ doe , and the God of peace shall bee with you . By the which testimonies to omit many more , we are tyed to follow the examples of the Apostles , and to imitate them in all that is holy and good , and of good report ; now it is prayse worthy and of good report to spend the whole Lords day in holy imployments , and wee have the Apostles examples , and the Primitive Christians for so doing , and therefore wee ought to spend the whole Lords day in the workes of piety and charity ; and by this the sanctifying of the Christian Sabbath , ( which is every seventh day ) is ratified ; the prophanation of the which in the reformed Churches , and in many places through these three Kingdomes has beene one of the causes of all those heavie judgements the whole Christian world now groanes under , and so much more would the Lord bee provoked by the toleration of all Religions amongst us , which would give just occasion of violating of all the Commandements of God , and of disobedience both to God and man ; for it is most sure , that the Morall Law is not altered in any thing for substance , and that God that by it injoyned but one Religion to the Israelites , and commanded them to keepe that pure and undefiled , and to punish all Idolaters , Blasphemers and Seducers , hath injoyned the same to all Christians , and hath not suffered or permitted them to tolerate all Religions or any sects or heresies , which by the Apostle in the fifth of the Galatians are called the workes of the devill , who declareth there also that they that do them shall not enter into the Kingdom of God. So that those that would bring in a toleration of all Religions have a desire to send men to the devill ; which is one of the greatest impieties and wickednesses that can bee perpetrated by the sonnes of men . Truly if God had such a care for the preserving of the very natural life of man , that charissimum animal , as hee made a Law that it should be death in any to tolerate or suffer any beast to goe at liberty and range abroad , if he killed a man , after he had beene told and forewarned of it that it was a dangerous creature , as wee may see Exod. 21. 28 , 29. where the Lord thus speaketh ; If an Oxe gore a man , or a woman , that they dye , then the Oxe shall be surely stoned , and his flesh shall not be eaten : but the Owner of the Oxe shall bee quit . But if the Oxe were wont to push with his horne in time past , and it hath beene testified unto his owner , and hee hath not kept him in but that hee hath killed a man or a woman ; the Oxe shall bee stoned , and his Owner also shall bee put to death . I say if the wilfull tolerating of but a mischievous creature to goe loose after his owner was informed of the dangerousnesse of it , and that the owner himselfe was to be put to death if hee killed either a man or a woman after it ; how much more may wee thinke the Lord will severely punish those men that will suffer heresies , and most dangerous and blasphemous opinions and idolatries to goe at liberty , which with their hornes push men into hell it selfe to the destroying both of the soules and bodies of the poore people : for in the fifth of the Galatians it is said , that he●esies and idolatrie , &c. are amongst those sinnes that send men to perdition . And we are informed by the Law of God of the deadlinesse of all sinnes , but especially of those there named ; and God hath often taught us in his holy Law how much hee detesteth all false religions , and false worships , and by a speciall edict , Exod. 22. verse 20. hath informed us saying , He that sacrificeth unto any God save the Lord shall bee put to death , so that wee cannot pretend ignorance ; and here is no exceptions of either persons or sexes ; and the same Law is reiterated in many more places of holy Writ , and especially Deuter 13. where the whole Chapter is spent about the punishment of Idolaters , and such as set up a false way of worshipping God : and for the Morall Law many of the Independents themselves as I can out of severall of their writings prove , hold that it is not alterable , but it is of the same force now it was then ; and if they grant this as they doe , they must likewise acknowledge that all the sanctions of it and penalties are also in force , and that whatsoever was death by the Law of God then , is by the same Law death n●w ; or else either God is changeable , or the Law is altered , both which I have yet so good opinion of some of them as I am confident they will not assert : and therefore they must necessarily yeeld unto this , if God and his Morall worship or Law bee the same and unalterable , they must I say then also accord unto this , that whatsoever was not then to be tolerated in Religion , is not now to be suffered , but severely be proceeded against . Ye● , Christ himselfe in his Epistles to the Church of Pergamos and Thyatiria and Laodic●a , Rev. 2. and 3. as I proved before , shews by threatning such heavie judgements upon those Churches for but conniving at and tolerating of Idolatry , and those other filthy abominations there , and by threatning with all their destruction , and the killing of them and their children with the sword , and the removing from them the Candlestick , that is the Gospel , the greatest punishment that can happen to people to be left in darkenesse and blindnesse , and in the shaddow of death , and in the power of Satan , and to be punished moreover with temporall miseries ; I say all these comminations and threats sufficiently declare unto all advised Christians that Christ the Lord and King of his Church hath not altered his mind , but that that Law is still in force that was made by him to his people of old ; yea , hee hath farther declared unto hi● people , Matth. 5. 17. 19. that hee came not to change the Law but to fulfill it , and that whosoever should teach the breaking of the least of his holy Lawes should be the least in the Kingdome of Heaven Now by all those his holy Lawes made unto his people of old , and by the practise of all his holy servants and Prophets hee hath declared how much hee detesteth and abhorreth the toleration of all Religions , and not onely by his words often reiterated , but hee hath also declared his displeasure by the punishment and immediat judgements hee laid upon Idolaters , as that before mentioned in the two and thirtieth of Exodus , where Moses from the Lord , verse 32. said , Who is on the Lords side ? let him come unto mee ▪ and the sonnes of Levi gathered themselves together unto him , and hee saith unto them , thus saith the Lord God of Israel , put every man his sword by his side , and goe out from gate to gate through the Campe , and slay every man his brother , and every man his companion , and every man his neighbour : here wee find according to that of Deut. the thirteenth , that in Gods quarrell , and for the vindicating of his honour wee may neither spare brother , companion or nighest alyes . So that if God would not then tolerate all Religions , hee will now much lesse indure it amongst us , especially when hee hath so often manifest his displeasure against us , as wee may see also Number the ●5 . where it is recorded how much hee was angery with his people for going into the sacrifices of the gods of the Moabites , and for their eating and bowing downe to their gods , and for joyning themselves with Baalpeor : for it is said there , that the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel , and hee said unto Moses , take all the heads of the people , and hang them up before the Lord against the sunne , that the fierce anger of the Lord may be turned away from Israel ; and Moses said unto the Iudges of Israel , s●ay y●● every one his men that were joyned unto Baalpeor , verse 2. 3 , 4 5. This president also wee have of Gods displeasure against a toleration of any false Religion , or false way of worship . So that all such as ple●d for a toleration of all Religions shew that they have either no Religion at all , or very little zeale for God. Yea , certainely they shew themselves all enemies of Christs Kingdome , that thus violate his Lawes , and trample them under their feet , and that would have the Kingdome of the Devill set up every where , and all Religions whatsoever tolerated amongst them , which must needs provoke the Lord to anger and displeasure against that nation that doth so provoke him . But how unsufferable a thing then is it in any that have the name of Christians , that when they should with all their power and might oppose all innovations in Religion , much more a toleration of all Religions , as some of them with the hazard of their lives and liberties in former times opposed the innovations and the novelties of the Prelates , and inveighed against the Booke for toleration of sports and recreations on the Lords day , and cryed out against it as an intolerable violating of Gods Law , and asserted that it was enough to provoke the Lord to anger against the whole Land , and write bookes and divine Tragedies upon Sabbath-breakers , and Profaners of the Lords day , and those that permitted the profanation of it , which with the godly of those times was reputed their immortall honour : how unsufferable a thing therefore is it I say now in these very men to pleade for a toleration of all Religions that could not then tolerate sports on the Lords day , by which not onely the fourth commandement would be brake , but all the commandements of both of the first and second Table ? without doubt they have a great deale to answer for before God ; for by the doctrine wee have learned from our Law giver and King the Lord Jesus Christ , ( who is not changeable though they be ) they that breake the least ef Gods commandements , and teach men so to doe ( whatsoever they esteeme of themselves , that they set up Christ upon his Throne , and whatsoever opinion men have of them ) they are the least in the Kingdome of Heaven , and have much to answer for before his Tribunall , for these their wicked dealings ; and truly it exceedingly saddeth my heart when I think of them how fearefully they are fallen , and what a scandall and blemish they are to their holy profession that thus Chamelion like change their forme upon every occasion . But how much more is it intolerable then in those men that have the name of Rabbies amongst those of the congregationall way , and that would make the world beleeve they are the onely Saints ; for those to make themselves merry when the godly and faithfull Ministers of the Gospell out of sorrow and griefe of soul spread before the Lord the blasphemies of the times as good Hezekiah did the blasphemies of Rahshekah , that it may move the people to mourning and sackcloth , and to humble themselves under the mighty hand of God for the diver●ing of his Judgements that do for these their blasphemous tenents hang over the land ; I say how intolerable a thing is it in such men to make a sport at it , and as Solomon speaks of the wicked in his time , ( whom he calls fools to make a mock at sin ? Yet such there are , as Cretensis by name amongst the rest is one of them who makes himselfe merry at these blasphemies and writes books in justification of those wicked and ungodly men , and calls their damnable practices the infirmities of the Saints , accoūting of them as Saints and holy men ; whereas the good and zealous Prophet Ieremiah , ch . 9. cryeth out at the beholding the abominations of his times , far inferio to those of our dayes , saying , Oh that my head were waters and mine eyes a fountain of teares , that I might weep day and night for the slain of the Daughters of my people . Oh that I had in the wildernesse a lodging place of wayfaring men , that I might leave my people and go from them , for they be all adulterers , an assembly of treacherous men : And they bend their tongue like their bow for lyes : but they are not valiant for the truth upon the earth , and they know not me saith the Lord. Here we see the posture of the holy Prophet , we find him armed and clad with mourning to behold the profanation of the truth , and we have here also his great complaint , that at that time there were not any valian for it upon the earth If now this glorious Prophet were in the world , and amongst us here in England , and should behold those damnable blasphemies that are every where ven●ed by the sons of Belial in these times & should see how few upon the earth are valiant for the truth , yea how they labour for a toleration of all Religions how would his spirit be moved & how would his soul be perplexed within him to see it ? and what fountains of tears would he pou e out to the Lord quenching of the fire of his wrath and indignation against them ? but how much more would it perplex and trouble h●s soul to see any that should write , yea publish books wherein they do not onely make themselves merry at those blaspnemies and count them the infirmities of the Saints , but proclame them Saints that perpet●ate all these wickednesses , and write most scurrilous ●ailing and vilifying books and Pamphlets against his holy servants that are valiant for the truth , counting them ( speaking disgracefully and contemptibly of them ) but thimbles full of dust ? without all controversie it would sad his soul to the very death , and so indeed it should trouble the souls of those that are truly godly to behold such lawlesse wickednesse not only to go unpunished , but to find favor and applause even of those that are Masters of the Assemblies ! Truly howsoever out of the infinite patience of God these men are yet suffered , yet I am most confident he that wil come , wil come and not tarry to reveng his own quarrel & the quarrel of his servants that are valiant for the Truth . And I wil take the liberty to say thus much to St Cretensis , that reverend learned and ever to be honoured Master Thomas Edwards who he so much vilipendeth and slighteth , calling him a thimble full of dust , will walk like a noble lyon , when he like a Curr or Bandogg shall go bawling by him ; and withall I would advise him to take heed of that thimble : For two or three fillips more of it upon his great noddle may so stagger him as he may happily never recover again ; and for ought I know or can discerne God may make halfe a thimble full of that dust to put out his eyes , and the eyes of half the Independents and Sectaries in England ; For most assured I am that all such as in the name of the Lord , ( as he doth ) come out against such notorious enemies of God and his Truth as Cretensis and his associates are , will be able to confound them all and by the power of his might be ever strong enough to deal with the whole Army of them , and with all those grolls and ●ynnies that take their part and appeare in their wicked cause : I will therefore rather advise Cretensis not gyant like to fight any longer against the Truth , but to humble himselfe for what he hath already done under the mighty hand of God , whom he with his complices & abetters have so highly provoked to wrath and anger against this poor tottering Kingdome . It is not Cretensis with all his foul language shall ever be able to bespatter the immaculate reputation of learned and godly Master Edwards who hath in Gods cause ever shewed himselfe valiant for the truth and stood in the gap against the errors of the times , and hath lift up his voice like a trumpet , which will be for his immortall praises , when too too many of his brethren ( which will not be for their honour ) were silent . We finde it Matthew 13. ver . 24 , 25. When the man had sowed good seed in his field , that whiles the men slept , his enemy came and sowed Tares among the Wheat and went his way ; which place is worthy to be taken notice of : For in terminis it is said , that whiles the men slept , this , I say , is to be taken notice of for their dishonour , that is to say , after they had so wen the good seed and published the truth , the Ministers and Preachers grew carelesse and like the people of Laish , Judges 18. ver . 7. and 10. Where they lived secure and the Magistrates were negligent in their place , putting no man to shame for any evill they did , which was the cause of their overthrow as it is there recorded , and will be of ours and the ruine of the whole Kingdome , if not timely prevented , as being guilty of the same crime . This indeed through the craft of the enemies hath bin one of the principallest occasions of the overspreading of this leprosie of all the heresies that now swarm through the whole Kingdome , that the Ministers have not been so zealous and servent against them as they should have been , and so valiant for the truth , in the which guiltinesse Master Edwards is not involved : for he hath all this time stood valiantly to the truth and shew'd himselfe a man of ●ourage , and that against all opposition , for which he deserveth especially to be honoured , and all those likewise that have seconded him , in discovering the danger of those devillish and damnable doctrines which have so poysoned the people every where , that if the Lord of his infinite goodnesse do not speedily send helpe and put into the hearts both of Magistrates , Ministers and all the people now at last to rouse up themselves and shew themselves valiant for the truth once delivered to the Saints which they are commanded to contend for , Jude 3. they will but the more provoke the Lord to indignation against the Nation . And in this good work they should set before their eyes the good example of all those worthy Kings and Governours whose names are recorded in holy writ to their everlasting honour for their diligence and care in suppressing of Errors and Idolatries ; withall they should lay to heart and consider that it highly concernes them , if they desire the good of themselves and the welfare of their posterity and the peace of the whole land , all which they will be deprived of if they speedily labour not to prevent them ; which a toleration of all Religions can never do ; for that must needs provoke the Lord to jealousie against us all : for if we but duly weigh what the holy Ghost hath made known unto us in many places , then that I now say will be out of doubt : but omitting many places I will pitch upon one or two , Judges 5 , and 8. it is said there , They chose new gods , then was warr in the gates . Here we see when all Religions came to be tolerated , then was war in the gates . And in the second of the Chronicles , chap. 15. ver . 3. 5 , 6. Now for a long season ( saith the holy Ghost ) Israel hath been without a true God , and without a teaching Priest , and without Law. And in those times there was no peace to him that went out , nor to him that came in , but great vexations were upon all the Inhabitants of the Country . And Nation was destroyed of Nation , and City of City , for God did vex them with all adversity . Now the cause of all these miseries and calamities that did come upon all these people was for their corrupting of their Religion . And this we shall find through the whole Scripture to be the cause of the wrath of God upon the Nations for the corrupting of their wayes and for the tolerating of Idolatry , and the adulterating of the true Religion amongst them , as is sufficiently manifest both from the places above specified , and from the second and third of the Revelations where the Lord denounceth Judgements against the Church of Pergamos and Thyatira , &c. for but conniving at and tolerating of the false doctrines amongst them ; in the which places as the Lord sheweth , he is the same in the time of the New Testament , not changeable , so it should lesson both people and Ministers , but especially the Magistrates now to add their helping hand for the suppressing of these damnable and wicked doctrines that are now every where too much divulged and published . They should also consider what the Lord saith , Zachariah 13. ver . 3. And it shall come to passe ( saith the Prophet ) that when any shall yet prophesie , then his father and his mother that bare him , shall say unto him , Thou shalt not live : for thou speakst lyes in the Name of the Lord : and his father and mother , that begat him , shall thrust him through when he prophesieth . Here we may take notice that the nighest alyes and kindred of any false Prophet are not to spare him ; and there is most excellent reason for it ; for if the taking away of the naturall life of any wan or woman deserveth death by the law of God and Nations ; how much more is that punishable in any man that shall labour to destroy and poyson the soules of the people , which all false teachers do when they spread heresies and damnable doctrines amongst them ? And for this place out of Zachariah , it is acknowledged by the very Independents themselves that it is a Prophecy pertaining to those that are under the Gospell and belongeth unto all Christians , as instructing them in their duty what they should do for the suppressing of false Prophets ; and they also do acknowledg that the establishing of pure Religion , and the Reformation of corruptions in Religion , do much concerne the civill peace , confessing if Religion be corrupted there will be war in the gates , and where Religion rejoyceth , the civill state flourisheth ; all this I say the Independents themselves accord unto . But they referre it and that truly unto the civill Magistrate partly by commanding and by stirring up the Churches and Ministers thereof to go about it , in their spirituall way : partly also , by civill punishments upon the wilfull opposers and disturbers of the same . Yea they apply that place out of Zachariah quoted by me to the times of the New Testament ( as I said before ) and confesse that it is prophesied there that in some cases capitall punishment shall proceed against false Prophets , and that by procurement of their neerest kindred . And moreover they say that the execution thereof is described Revel . 16. v. 4 , to the 7. Where the Rivers and Fountains of waters ( that is the Preists and Jesuites that convey the Religion of the Sea of Rome throughout the Countries ) are turned to blood , that is have blood given them to drink by the Civill Magistrate . These are the very expressions of the Independents themselves . Now if this in their opinion doe hold true against the Priests and Iesuits ? whether it doth not also hold true against all the erroneous and blasphemous Sectaries and hereticall Teachers , that by murthering the soules of many thousand innocent people , send them to the Devill , that I leave to the grave consideration of all those that are zealous for the glory of God , and valiant for the truth , and to all such as desire to contend for the truth : who ought ever to set before their eyes the example of all those godly Princes and Magistrates , the names of which are recorded in holy Writ ; and in speciall it will be good to consider what Asa and the people of his time did , whose prayses are set downe , and what good followed upon it to the whole Land , 2 Chron. 15. verse 12 , 13. it is said there , That they entered into a Covenant to seeke the Lord God of their Fathers , with all their heart , and with all their soule , that whosoever would not seeke the Lord God of Israel , should be put to death , whether small or great , whether man or woman ; and they swore unto the Lord with a loud voice , and with shouting , and with Trumpets , and with Cornets , and all Judah rejoyced at the oath ; for they had sworne with all their heart , and sought him with their whole desire , and hee was found of them : and the Lord gave them rest round about . Here wee may take notice of these two things especially . The first , that this their covenanting against all such as should goe about to corrupt Religion , for the punishing of them with death , is left not onely for their eternall honour and praise , and for our imitation , but that it did so please the Lord that he was found of them . The second thing observable , is , that hee did in a peculiar manner blesse them , and gave them rest round about : so that from thence wee learne , that if Magistrates who are Gods Ministers , and whose place it is , will execute judgement against all Seducers and blasphemous Teachers , by this they shall bring glory to God , and procure peace and welfare to their Countries , and safety to their dwellings . And truly Magistrates should consider their places who are called gods , and therefore as God hath set them an example both in Exod. 32. and Numb . the 25. the places above cited , in punishing Idolators , so they also should follow him and the example of good King Asa in so doing . They may remember also they are called nursing Fathers , and nursing Mothers : and therefore as nursing and tender Fathers and Mothers will not suffer corrupt and poysonous food be given to their children , but kill Serpents and Scorpions , and such venemous creatures , and destroy them that may hurt them ; so they likewise should labour in their particular places to root out all that Generation of Vipers that poyson the people with their hereticall and blasphemous doctrine . The Magistrates should remember also , that they are called Pastors ; now no godly and carefull Pastors will suffer Wolves to come into their folds to worry and destroy their sheep ; how diligent ought they likewise to be to keep out those ravenous wolves , though they come in sheeps clothing , out of their severall Pastures , that would destroy the soules of all their sheepe ? all these things I say all Magistrates should lay to heart and duly consider ; for their place it is to whom God hath committed the sword , and who ought to watch over the people for good , and whose neglecting of their duty will be laid to their charge , and who are to answer for it before God , if through their con nivence or negligence any evill happen to the people . But if they should wilfully suffer the corruption of the true Religion , and allow of a toleration of all Religions , how much would this provoke the Lord to anger against the nation ? Wee may see how zealous good Nehemiah was in his time , and how undauntedly hee stood to the cause of God , saying , should such a man as I am fly ? he was resolved to maintaine Gods truth , which was his Honour to Eternity , and for all Magistrates imitation , Nehemiah the 13. verse 23 , 24 , 25. who but seeing that the Iewes had married wives of Ashdod , of Ammon , and of Moab , and but hearing their children speake halfe ●in the speech of Ashdod , and could not speake in the Iewes language , but according to the language of each people , it is related there that hee contented with them , and reviled or cursed them , and smote certaine of them , and pluckt off their haire , and made them sware by God , saying ▪ ye shal not give your daughters unto their sonnes , nor take their daughters unto your sonnes , or for your selves ; did not Solomon King of Israel sinne by these things , who was beloved of God ? neverthelesse , even him did out-landish women cause to sinne . Shall we then hearken unto you ( saith he ) to doe all this great evill , to transgress against our God in marrying of strange wives ? Here wee have an example and patterne for all Christian Magistrates , and such as are in authority to follow . For this was pend for our instruction , upon whom the ends of the world are come . This example of Nehemiah was wont greatly to be urged upon Christians for imitation , and that by those of the congregationall way , and therefore I hope they will not now be displeased , that I make use of it upon the like occasion , and Magistrates were called upon by them to follow the patterne of noble and glorious Nehemiah , in making a through Reformation in all things , and for suppressing of all errors and innovations in Religion , and in that hee would not suffer or tolerate any strange Religion amongst them ; for hee but hearing they speake the language of Ashdod , cursed them and reviled them , and smote them , and beate them also for it , and tore off the very haire of their faces , so that hee laid severe corporall punishment upon them for it . Now if hee would not suffer them in his sight and hearing to speake the language of Ashdod , hee would never have granted them a toleration of all Religions ; for hee was another Ioshua , fully resolved that hee and his houshold , and all that were under his command should serve the Lord , and him onely , and that after his way ; and hee sufficiently there declareth his detestation against a toleration of all Religions , or of giving the people an indulgence to serve God which way they thought best , and to use the liberty of their consciences , for hee made them all to imbrace the true Religion , and to worship God according as hee had commanded in his holy word , which is meant by that hee made them sweare by God , which as all the learned know , is ever in the holy Scripture to be understood of the true worship of God. Now we see godly Nehemiah not onely urges them to imbrace the true Religion , and to serve God according as hee himselfe hath appointed , by Arguments and Reasons , setting before them the miseries and calamities that came upon the whole land by Solomons tolerating of all Religions amongst them : but gallant Nehemiah reviled them , as if hee said , you rogues , doe you speake in the language of Ashdod , and then cudgels them into the true Religion , and forces them by stripes , and corporall punishments to imbrace it , which is recorded to his immortall praise , and for all Christian Magistrates imitation ; so that he abhorred the toleration of all Rel gions : and as David would not suffer a Lyar in his house , so good Nehemiah would not suffer any of a contrary Religion to be under his government ; hee had learned this Lesson from God himselfe , Deut. 4. and Deut. 6 ▪ and Deut. 11. & Deut. 13. &c. This renowned Governour and Magistrate was not affraid to constraine them to doe that which was for the glory of God , and according to his will , and for the good of their owne soules , and for the good of the whole Land , and the safety and peace of them all : and yet I beleeve Nehemiah knew as well what belonged unto tender consciences as any Independents now living , and hee understanding that the heart of man was deceitfull above all things , and desperately wicked , Jer. 17. v. 9. & that conscience being but a branch springing from that deceitfull and desperately wicked root , knew also that there could be nothing in it but evill , & that continually , and therefore tooke that liberty upon him to constraine their wicked consciences to conforme to the commandements of God , and to submit themselves to his most holy Lawes and Statutes , and to that way of worship God had injoyned his people , which is the duty of all Parents and Magistrates , who by Gods command and this example of good Nehemiah's may at any time use the rod of correction , and by it make rebellious and stubborne children and people conforme themselves to the commandements of the Lord , and to his true worship , and this duty they are bound unto by the Law of God if they urge them to nothing but what God hath declared to be his will in his blessed Word . And truly it is not to be passed over without serious taking notice of it , how zealous this good Nehemiah was against all sinne and false worship , and how adverse hee was to a toleration of all religions under his government ; for hearing them speake but the language of Ashdod , hee by and by reviled them , and fell about their eares , and forthwith constrained them , and that by stripes to embrace the true worship of God. But if this good Nehemiah were now living here amongst us , and should heare not onely the language of Ashdod , but the language of hell out of every mouth , and see the abominable practises of the Sectaries of our times , and should heare their hellish and blasphemous and hereticall doctrines of denying the Trinity , and the Deity of Christ , and slighting the holy Scriptures , and many such desperate doctrines , how may wee thinke would his righteous soule be troubled with it ? and how would hee bestirre him in cudgelling these fellowes into the true Religion , and making of them serve God according to his own appointment , and not after their own fantasies as they all now doe ? without all controversie good Nehemiah would baste them to the purpose , and all such as should side with them , and especially hee would belabour all such well as should write bookes in defence of such , and should call them Saints , and their damnable blasphemies the infirmities of the Saints . I say I am most confident that were good Nehemiah in our times , and had hee that authority hee had then in Ierusalem , hee would baste them all to some purpose , and make , and force them by cudgelling of them to be conformable to wholesome words ; and I am most assured , he would pull off Cretensis his blew beard , qui ne pilum boni viri habet , and knock him soundly about his hairy scalp ; And St. Quarter-man also he would have some good slaps as he deservs over his great pate , & all the rest of these hereticall & dangerous Sectaries would by him be constrained with beatings to yeeld obedience to the authority of Gods word , and hee would make them know themselves ; and this indeed is the duty and place of all Magistrates and Parents , and Masters of Families , neither to suffer or tolerate such fellows in their houses nor Countries ; for this would but bring judgements upon the land , much more ought every man to detest all such as should labour to bring in a toleration of all Religions , when we see what misery came upon all Israel by Solomons toleration of them there . But the Independents say there is no presidents of any corporall punishment layd upon any under the New Testament for matter of Religion that Magistrates should follow : but I conceive the example of our Saviour may suffice for their imitation , Who Joh. 2. whipped the buyers and sellers out of the Temple for merchandizing there ; and therefore laid corporall punishments upon them . And truly if the Magistrates now should whip all the buyers and sellers of their new and blasphemous doctrines out of their severall new Temples and Churches , I am confident it would be very pleasing unto God , and Christs example would justifie and hold them out in this their so doing : for who can they better imitate then the King of his Church ? Yea we see corporall punishment threatned against the Church of Pergamos and Thyatira , &c. and afterwards inflicted upon them by God himself for suffering those false Prophets and Teachers amongst them . Yea we see Act. 13. that Bariesus for but labouring to hinder the Proconsull from hearing the Gospell , was by Paul strucken with blindnesse for it by God himselfe , to teach all Magistrates that those deserve punishment that hinder the preaching of the faith ; but much more those that corrupt it ought to be punished . And we have another example of corporall punishment ; for when there was no Magistrate to punish those exorcists , those sonns of Sceva , the Lord suffered the devill which could not enter into a swine without his permission , to be his executioner and to lay corporall punishment upon them for abusing his name and his authority : All which may teach all men how much God is displeased with all such as corrupt his worship and service , and would bring in a toleratiou of all Religions , and may serve to instruct all Magistrates in their duty for the punishing of all false and herericall Teachers and Seducers . And truly , if ever there were a time that called for an establishment of one Religion and a setled Government with Uniformity in a Church and State , and a Suppression of all Heresies , Sects and Factions from the Magistrates hand and a punishing of all false Teachers , now it is , when by the sad effects already of divisions and variety of opinions , we may well perceive what ruine will come upon the three Kingdomes , if there be a toleration of all Religions granted : for divisions and factions , especially in Religion , have been fatall to Kingdomes and Commonwealth in all ages , as the holy Scriptures and all Histories relate . The consideration of which makes me take the liberty to recite a story I heard of a great Nobleman in Queen Elizabeths dayes at her first comming to the Crown , when there was a mighty Popish faction in the Court and through the whole Realm as all men know , and when there was as great an indeavour for the bringing in of a toleration of that Religion , as now there is for the setting up a Pantheon of all manner of Sects . And such reasons there were then given for the establishing of the Catholique Religion ( as they called it , ) as I beleeve ( if they should all be rehearsed ) there is few of those that now plead for a toleration of all , can give the like ; but better I am most confident they cannon give . For if multitudes of a contrary opinion armed with strength & power also , and they all furnished with malice and resolution to put them upon the imployment of their strength , had been able to create danger to the Kingdome if the liberty of their consciences should have been denyed unto them , then there was nothing wanting to terrifie a State to condescend to grant a toleration : but all this could not then prevail , nor all the art of perswasion they then used as that men of a contrary judgement were rather to be won with sweetnesse and lenity and loving perswasions and arguments and reasons , then by any coercive way which often brought danger unto Kingdoms , & many arguments more with great worldly wisdom were then produced , which with many that were reall Protestants and then in ●ouncel seemed of some weight : but at that time there was a brave Nobleman present and a man of great understanding and as they usually call such a great Statesman ; but yet such an one as was never taken notice of to be any great zealot for Religion on either side . Yet he demanding of the Councell that was then in debate about this businesse ( the greatest part of which seemed to make profession of the Protestant Religion and something incline to yeeld unto a toleration ) whether or no , they thought the Protestant Religion was the true Religion , and that way of serving God that he had appointed ; and the most of them replyed , that they from their hearts and souls beleeved , that it was Gods Religion , and that which was taught in the holy Scriptures : Then said this Nobleman , my Lords , set up and establish that Religion only and no other , do you your duty and labour to authorize it ; and your life for mine , God will help you to maintain his own honour and cause , against what power and policy soever shall come against you ; for he can infatuate their counsell and enervate their strength and blast all their attempts in a moment , who is all-sufficient , and against whom no counsell nor understanding can prevail ; for he sitteth in Heaven and doth whatsoever he pleaseth ; for as there is no Lord or Master that can indure any servant , that shall comply with his enemies & give equall honour and service to his adversary that he doth to himself , or connive at any so doing ; so God will never like of your service when you worship him , if ye serve the devill also ; which you must do if you set up any other Religion or any other Religion or any other way of Church Government in the Kingdome , then that you beleeve in your hearts God himselfe hath appointed : for as two Religions so contrary one to another are incompitible with the glory and honour of God , who hath said , No man can serve two Masters ; so they will be destructive to the safety of the Kingdome . And therefore my Lords , saith he , as we have but one God , so I beseech your honours , let us have but one Religion in the Kingdome and one kinde of Church Government amongst us , and that ratified and established by authority : for if their be a liberty left for every man or every faction to do what they please , we shall speedily bring down the judgements of God upon the Kingdome and a confusion upon us all . And many reasons more he gave to this purpose , by which he so prevailed with the Councell that they agreed to give no toleration for Popery or allow of any faction in Religion , but resolved with all speed to establish the Protestant Religion . And truly the same argument may now be used for the establishing of one Religion and one kinde of Govrnment . And as Elijah said to Baals Priests and to the people , If God be God then follow him , &c. So if this way of worshipping God that is held forth in the Protestant Churches and hath for some generations been taught in the Church of England , be that way , then it will be for the honour and glory of God and the safety of the Kingdome that that onely be established , which will bring peace to Church and State and take away all occasions of offence and jarrs amongst brethren . For the examples of Poland , Transsylvania and Holland they are no presidents to other Nations , their politique proceedings are no examples for other Christian Countries and Kingdoms to follow ; for Christians are to live by the rule of GODS Word , and Christ's their Kings laws , and to follow the examples of his own people onely in their wel-doing , and not in their failings ; and therefore we are to follow the example of Abraham , Joshua , Elias , and the other Patriarchs , Prophets , and holy Apostles , who never tolerated all Religions . Yea we are commanded in Romans 12. Not to conform our selves to this world , but that we should be transformed by the renewing of our minds , that we may prove what i● the good and the acceptable and perfect will of God. This Will of God therefore must be the rule and square that we must ever set before our eyes and hearts in matters of our God , and in points of Religion , and worship , and not the example ot Poland , and Transsilvania . Now let us heare what is the good will and pleasure of Christ our Law-giver concerning this point of toleration , who challengeth , and that of all due and right to be our Master , saying , Matth. 23. 8. Be not yee called Rabbi for one is your Master , even Christ ; and againe verse 10. neither be ye called Masters ( saith he ) for one is your Master , even Christ ; this reiterating of the same prohibition , and challenge to be our Master , shewes that wee are not to make either men or Angels , or whole Kingdomes or Countries our Masters , but onely Christ , we must alwayes therefore in matters of Religion , have recourse unto his good word and will , and heare his voice , and therefore let us heare what the will of Christ is concerning this busines of Toleration , who in in the 8. of Mark 15. speaking there unto his Disciples , and in them to all Christians ( for the Independent Masters hold that the Disciples represented the whole Christian Church ) he charged them saying , take heed and beware of the leven of the Pharisees , and of the leven of Herod , here wee find a treble caveat , a Charge , and a Take-heed , and a Beware , as if the Lord had said I cannot use too many words to make them take heed , &c. and of what ? even of a Toleration of any Religion , but the true Religion , and of that Religion Christ hath taught us , by what authority soever it comes ratified unto us , whether by Ecclesiasticall or civill ; yea , though it bee imposed upon us by the command of Kings , and Rulers themselves : for saith Christ our Master , I charge you all take heed , and beware of the leven of the Pharisees , and of the leven of Herod . Now by leven our Saviour understands all traditions and doctrines of men , and injoyns all his Disciples to beware of them , and commands them to take heed of them , and not to tolerate them amongst them , and that this is his good will and pleasure he hath ratified it when hee was in heaven for writing unto the Church of Thyatira , Revel . 2. verse 20. I have ( saith hee ) a few things against thee , because thou sufferest that woman Jezabel , which calleth her selfe a Prophetesse , to teach and seduce my servants , &c. Here Christ hath declared his will and good pleasure , and how much he displeased with that Church , that shee suffered those false Teachers and Seducers amongst them , and that they but connived at them , and pronounces fearfull judgements against both that Church , and the Church of Pergamos , and that of Laodicea for tolerating the Doctrine of Baalam , the Nicolaitans , and for suffering those luke-warme Christians amongst them : so that there is nothing that Christ abhorreth more then a toleration of all Religions ; but that wee may farther yet know what the good will and pleasure of God is concerning this point , let us heare Paul , who made knowne the whole counsell of God to his Church , Act. 20. . Now hee in the 17. of the Acts declareth the will of God touching this matter ; for after that hee had reproved the Athenians for their superstitions , ver . 22. and undertaken to teach them the knowledge of the true God , who they ignorantly worshipped , and the right way of worshipping and serving him , and informing them that hee is not worshipped with mens hands , that is with any of their inventions , and with what way , or in what manner they thinke fit , God ( saith hee ) is not to bee worshipped after any traditions of men , but according to his owne appointments : and this hee challenges by right from all men : as being the absolute Lord of them all , for he made them ; they are ( saith the Apostle ) the off-spring of God and his Generation , and they live in him , and move in him , and have their being in him , and their breath and life from him ; yea , saith the Apostle hee hath determined the times before appointed , and the bounds of their habitation : Now God saith hee hath given you all these things , that yee should seeke the Lord , that is , that ye should worship him as hee is your Lord and King , and to whom all honour and service of right is due ; now then as wee are his off-spring , we must not thinke of God after our fantasie , and set up such a worship as pleaseth our selves , or allow of any kind or way of worshipping God that men please to follow , as you superstitiously doe at Athens ; no ( saith the Apostle ) God will be worshipped after his owne way , and after his owne appointment , and howsoever God winked at the times of this ignorance , yet now hee commands all men every where to repent , that is , to set up the true Religion , and to worship him after one way ; for ( saith hee ) all the nations are now to set up one way of worship , and if they will not obey this Lord of the whole world , and imbrace that one , and onely true Religion , that I teach and preach unto you , then I tell you plainely , that as God hath appointed a day wherein hee will judge the world in righteousnesse by Christ Iesus , if you will not set up his true worship , and the true Religion , and the right way of serving him ; but will tolerate all manner of Religions amongst you still , as formerly you have done , and give liberty to every man to serve God after his owne will and pleasure , and not according to this good will and pleasure of God you shall be eternally damned , for this is the meaning of the Apostle , so that the will of God must be our rule for worship , and not Poland and Transsylvania ; the will of God ( saith the Apostle ) must be that wee must follow in worshipping and serving him . Now when by the Word of God , that acceptable and perfect will of his wee are taught that hee was displeased with his people the Jewes , for tolerating of all religions amongst them , and that he was highly offended with those christian Churches in Asia for tolerating the doctrines of Balaam and Iezabel , we are sufficiently taught and instructed , that Christians ought not to tolerate any other Religion but that which Christ the only King and Law-giver of his Church hath taught us , and that whosoever should take that authority upon them to tolerate all Religions , would bee found fighters against God , and such as deservedly would bring downe his judgements upon the Land by it , for if but conniving at evill and consenting to it be a thing displeasing unto God , how would the tolerating of it by a Law be abominable unto his sacred and divine Majesty ? for this were to establish iniquity by a Law. We are taught in the holy Scriptures , that the consenting with a thiefe makes a man as guilty before God as the acting of thievery , Psal . 50 and that they that assented unto Jezabel in killing the Prophets , made themselves all as guilty as Jezabel her selfe , and that the Heathen Romans , Rom. 1. verse 32. who knowing the judgement of God ( that they which commit such things are worthy of death ) not onely doe the same but consent with them that doe them ; made themselves as equally guilty as the Actors of them , as Paul in his bill and information put up in the Court of Heaven against them sufficiently declareth ; the same did Elias in his bill of information against the people in his time , accusing them all as equally guilty of the blood of the Prophets , and destroying Religion as Jezabel , and onely because they consented unto it ; They ( saith Elias ) have killed thy Prophets , and have broken down thy Altars : Which they ? all the people that assented unto her , as well as the Officers and Executioners : And so our Saviour in his time , accuseth the people as well as Herod for slaying of Iohn the Baptist , saying , They have done to him whatsoever they pleased . They , which they ? all the Nobles that sate at Table with Herod , that did not disswade Herod from that bloody and tyrannicall act , and all the people that liked well of it : the sinne of this Nation who assented unto the bloody Decrees and censures given in the High-commission-Court , and in the Star-chamber , and in all other unjust Courts the people that assented unto all their cruell censu●es against Gods people and liked well of it , are as equally guilty , who would ordinarily say , that had they beene Judges they would have done the like , and that they were men worthy of death , which made them ( I say ) as equally guilty as their wicked Iudges and Executioners ; as wee may see also in those that assented unto the High-Priests , and to the Scribes and Pharisees in putting to death the Lord of Life , they made themselves all guilty of his blood , and by that meanes brought the curse of God upon them and their children by it to this day , as well as the High-Priests themselves : a fearefull sinne , though the world take no notice of it , and which all these Kingdomes have yet to repent of : Saint Paul also makes himselfe as guilty of Stephens blood , as they that stoned him , saying , When thy holy Martyr Stephen was stoned , I stood by and assented unto it , and held the garments of those that stoned him : By which hee acknowledgeth himselfe equally guilty , and so all those that assented to all the cruelty done to the people of God in these Kingdomes , and were approvers of their tyrannie , are as guilty as the actors of it , for consenting unto any treason or conspiracy , or with any malefactors , and all their complices , both by the Law of God , nature , and nations , makes them all guilty before God and men , and as liable to justice and punishment as those that acted in those malefices ; and therefore those that but assent unto a toleration of all Religions ( a sinne so highly displeasing unto God ) are as guilty as the Actors of it ; and if but consenting make them guilty , how guilty are they then that use Arguments to bring in a toleration of all Religions , and abuse the Scriptures to this end , and plead for it , and would have it established by a Law ? surely they are offenders against divine Majesty in an elevated nature , and have a great deale to answer for it before God especially when they doe it in a most scurrilous and rayling manner , by which they manifest to all the world that they are more verst and better acquainted with the doctrine of Billings-gate then with the language of Canaan . But this may seeme a wonderfull thing to all judicious men , that that people which within these six yeers were afraid of a Surplice , and of the crosse in Baptisme , and of any popish ceremony , or of any of their vaine traditions and will-worship ( which was their honour then ) should now plead for the toleration of the body and soule of Popery , and for all other both Iewish and heathenish Religions , and all manner of sects , so destructive to that Religion , which the King of Saints and King of Kings , and the onely King of his Church , the Lord Iesus Christ himselfe hath taught us , and to the peace and quietnesse of the Land ; this I say , must needs seeme a monstrous thing to any moderate minded Christian : Nay , how unreasonably doe these men deale with their brethren ? they plead for a toleration of all Religions here in England , and yet in New-England banish men into Ilands from amongst them , for dissenting from them in their new modell of Church-government , and for but dissenting from them in their opinions about Religion ; and h●re amongst us what impious and rayling bookes doe they make against the Ministers for endeavouring to establish that Religion , and that Church-government that God himselfe in his holy Word hath set downe ? and what approbrious names doe they give the faithfull and painfull Preachers and Pastors of the Church of England , calling them Baals Priests the profest enemies of Iesus Christ and his Kingdome , the lims of Antichrist , false Prophets , the brood of Babylon , terming some particular men of them Rabshekes , others Bauds , others Black mouths , legall Preachers , and stiling all of them the cursed enemies of Iesus Christ , and thinke of them as men not worthy to live , and in expresse words professe it ; and yet these men plead for a toleration of all Religions , when both by their words and deeds they manifest , if it were in their power , the first worke they would doe should be to root us all out of the Kingdome : so that all men may see , they say one thing and mean another , that they would tolerate all Religions , but onely that which is the true Religion , and so by that meanes have no Religion at all , but one of their owne making , which by their new lights they have of late found out , which they call the straight way to Heaven , and the onely way of setting up Christ upon his Throne , which is nothing else , to say the truth , but to dis-throne him , and set up themselves and their new modell , for who doth not see how already they lord it over all good Christians , not admitting them to the Sacraments ; but upon their owne termes , nor suffering their children to be baptized amongst them , nor so much as suffering any they call Presbyterians to preach in their new congregated Assemblies : and if this be to give a toleration of any Religion but their owne , let all the world judge : but I say , and will ever by Gods assistance be able to make it good , in that they plead for a toleration of all Religions , they are guilty of hainous and foule sinnes being complices , as well as they that are Actors . Now then when the Presbyters of the Church of England seeke and endeavour in all their proceedings to establish that Religion which Christ the King of his Church hath taught them and his blessed Apostles , and labour to set up that Government that was ordained in all Churches to be perpetuated to the end of the world ; in their so doing , they imitate all the Patriarchs , Prophets and Apostles , and in that they doe more advance Christs Kingdome than the Independents , who under pretence of liberty of conscience would bring in a toleration of all Religions and confusion upon us all . Surely , if ever any Ministers deserved well from the people , the Ministers of England now do , who by all their endeavours shew that they seek to bring them to the knowledge of God and of his Sonne Jesus Christ , and to the knowledge of themselves which is life eternall : For what could men do more than that which they have done , who have Petitioned the House of Lords and Commons now sitting in the great Councell of the Kingdome , that they might be armed with authority from them in their severall charges , to have the examination of such as shall be admitted to the Sacraments , that they may be rightly informed in the knowledge of those holy Mysteries and that ●one that are either ignorant or scandalous in their lives , may be suffered to communicate at the Lords Table , by which their endeavour , they shew the Christian care they have of their eternall welfare ( for which the people are ever bound unto them ) and by the which also they take away all scandall and occasion of offence to others , which formerly pretended that the cause of their separating from our Congregations and Assemblies , was , in regard they could not communicate with doggs and swine , and with the tag ragge and bobtaile of all the Malignants ; for in such termes they usually expresse themselves . Now when the occasion of this scandall and offence is taken away by the care of the Ministers , and all Superstition and Popish Ceremonies , and all will ▪ worship is also rooted out , and when the Gospell is truly and faithfully by them preached , both in season and out of season , and the Name of God truly invocated and the Sacraments duly and rightly administred , what just cause have the Independents now either of separation or of traducing either Ministers or people of being enemies of Christ and his Kingdome ; when by all their indeavours they onely seek the advancement of him and his Kingdome amongst them ? I have so good an opinion of all moderate minded Christians , that when they shall seriously weigh and consider what I have here writ , and truly and faithfully set down , that those of them that have formerly been alienated from them , will again , being now undeceived , return every one of them to their own Pastors , by whose Ministry they have been converted ; and that all other understanding men will not only have more charitable thoughts both of the Ministers and Beleevers of the Church of England , but will likewise look more narrowly into , and examine more diligently all those new wayes , and by finding them out , to be indeed but new , will seek for the old way and walk in it : And truly it stands all men now in hand that desire the welfare of the whole Kingdome , yea the safety , tranquillity and felicity of three Kingdomes and the peace of them all , and the quiet of the Church and the prosperity of Zion , and indeed the peace of their own families , and a good accord , harmony , love , and unity amongst brethren , to seek for the old way which hath the promise of peace , which can never be preserved where differences and diversities of opinions with a toleration of all Religions are allowed of ; for they tend to nothing but dis-union and to a violation of all bonds of true and cordiall affection ; for they can never love such as they have a command to shun nor never really affect such mens companies and acquaintance whom they are ever jealous of , that they will seduce their wives , children , and families ; therefore I say that all people may not onely seek for , but finde that old way of peace , shall ever be his prayer that wisheth that all men may be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth . AN APPENDIX . In the which all the reproaches , and truth-gainsaying calumnies , so injuriously and causelesly cast upon me by my Brother BURTON , my Quondam Fellow-sufferer , are all wiped away with the spunge of Innocency in this my true Answer unto him : In the which also , all such passages as hee so exceedingly exaggerates and cryes out against in my Preface and Postscript are cleared from his clamorous surmises , and my Integrity vindicated from all his traducing Inferences , and forced Conclusions . Brother Burton , IN the beginning of your Epistle to the Reader , say you , This answer was long agoe so conceived in the wombe , as the slow birth may seeme to have out-gone his due time . Truly it had beene good for you , and farre more for your honour , and for the honour and glory of God , and for the honour of your holy profession , that the wombe of this your Booke had beene its grave : for it hath not onely given great scandall to many , but sadded the hearts of multitudes of Gods people that formerly truly loved and honoured you . But men that make more haste then good speed , have cause at leisure often to repent , as you one day must doe for this untimely birth of your deformed and monstrous brat . To the matters of Argument concerning your opinion in answer to my Booke ; I have in the foregoing Treatise made my Reply , in this Appendix I am to make my just defence against some false accusations and soule aspersions with which you have bespatterd mee through your whole discourse ; but should I summe up all the revilings , scornings , vilifying , unsufferable and unchristian language , which those of your Fraternity ( after I had declared my selfe to be none of your party , before any of my Books came forth ) did and still doe provoke and salute mee with , even in the open streets , to the shame of their profession ( yet in the 27. page of your Booke approved of ) they would rise to a volume . But I have learned with the Apostle Paul , to passe through honour and dishonour , through evill report and good report , as a Deceiver and yet true ( 2 Cor. 6. 8. ) being therefore nothing moved with their raylings , I spread them before the Lord , and for brevitie sake will not here repeate them . I shall onely take a note of some ( passing by many ) of the unbrotherly reproaches , false accusations , and bitter invectives , poured out from your selfe ( whose Schollers it may be thought the others are ) and I will unfaynedly answer you , in the words of truth and sobernesse , and in the spirit of meeknesse and love . But first give mee leave to say , that from you of all men I least expected , much lesse deserved such hard speeches , I having beene not only a sufferer with you ( which ingageth a personall respect ) but alwayes ready and forward in the worst and most dangerous times to appeare in your defence to my owne great detriment and dammage , and as a faithfull friend , have stucke close , and been serviceable unto you since , as can sufficiently be proved when your protestation protested was questioned ; all which challenged a Christian circumspection , even in reproving of humane frailties . Now things being thus betweene you and mee , how exceedingly doth it aggravate your offence , in scandalizing my name as you have done ? For mine owne part , when out of zeale to Gods Glory , and my servent desire of Syons peace , I write against that new way you walke in , and justly blamed in generall ( naming no man ) the unwarrantable writings , and censures published , and laid upon all who in their judgements dissent from Independents , though truly Godly , affirming , that they are but converts in part , that they are enemies to Christs Kingly office : and set up Christ as a pageant King ; that they neither professe nor confesse Christ , but with the Iewes say , wee will not have this man to raigne over us : observing also in the Frontispices of their Bookes writ in defence of Independent errors , these words ; Thinke not that I am come to send peace upon earth : I came not to send peace but a sword , &c. Matth. 10. 34 35 , 36. and that in a time of so great distractions , when your party have subtilly spread Schisme , Faction , and caused fraction and division through the Kingdome ; and considering withall how ready tumultuous and turbulent people are , especially upon such advantages as these , to misapply Christs words ( as all men may see , and by their daily expressions plainly perceive they doe ) and from that text are easily perswaded to beleeve they have good ground and warrant to fight against their Christian brethren to maintaine errors and their owne whimsies ; I say , I weighing all these things , when I writ against erroneous and peace disturbing wayes , which I tooke to be my duty , yet so far was I your fellow sufferer , from falling at odds with you ( as you seeme to intimate , page 2. ) that in reproving sinne , for which I have sacred Writ to be my warrant , Levit 19. 17. I gave a reverentiall honour to the person , and to manifest my respects unto your selfe ( because a sufferer ) I brought not your name upon the Theater ; error I confuted , the danger of misapplying Scripture I declared , and reprehended , and so by Gods gracious assistance I ever shall ; and will not connive with any that hold and labour to maintaine a way that leads to error and faction : But so tender I was of your repute , and at so vast a distance from reproaching you with untruths to render you despicable to men , that your name I spared to mention , and for my description of a grave man with a white basket-hilted-beard , a selfe denying man would have passed it over with silence , and onely made use of it , as a respectfull private reproofe . For I beseech you lay aside your passion , and consider a little , are there not some others of your judgement , that have as great white beards as your selfe ? which are basket-hilted beards in my Dialect , a harmelesse word in it selfe , and a word that you know in Love and Mirth I doe frequently use to my dearest and familiar friends , and it was not counted scurrilous or offensive by any other , nor by your selfe ( to whom I have often used this expression , and you never reproved me nor were offended at it untill now , because I cannot approve of your writings and way , which God is my witnesse , before whom I speak , and who knows the secret intentions of my heart , I would imbrace and walk in , were there in Scripture any command , precept or example for my so doing , but you can never produce sound Scripture proofes for it . Now Scripture clearly holds out that way I walk in , practice and maintain . Brother you were too too precipitate , you need not have made a particular application in publike , and then present your selfe to the view of the world in so great a passion , as to let men see and know , you are not able to disgest a merry word ; Alas ! thousands never saw your book , and of them that have seen and read it , happily every one took not notice of your uncharitable writings and opinions ; for untill you so unadvisedly rushed out , and on the publique Theatre proclamed your selfe to be the man , very few suspected you would have dealt so unbrotherly with your brethren ( who though they differ from your judgement , yet are sincerely godly , and have deserved well from you , and layd out themselves freely , for the good of you , and yours , above all other men ) as to pronounce them emenies of Jesus Christ , or that you would unchristian all holy Christians , and deny the saving work of grace in them ( true conversion ) because they dare not joyne with you , nor approve of those opinions you have lately taken up ; you have not been so forward at other times to declare your selfe to be the man ( why now ? ) surely you conceit the subscribing your name again thereunto , is a sufficient ground for men to believe , that those passages and assertions are not erroneous , and that it is a Piaculum in me to question the matter , time , season , and manner of publishing such things ; if so , you mistake your selfe exceedingly , for this is an undeniable truth , that you are a man subject to like passions ( and errors ) as other men are ( Jam. 5. 17. ) even your best friends being Judges . And that I may discover your selfe unto your selfe , I will sum up a few of your passionate expressions , with your unbrotherly ( that I say not unchristian ) aspersions , and slanderous accusations brought against me by name , in your book that you intitle ( but how truly ) Vindiciae Veritatis , which before ever I had seen or so much as heard of , being in the Country when it came forth , one having perused it , briefly and lovingly reproved you and writ against many unworthy reproaches and slanders contained therein ; And I shall now again take a note of them , and then clear those false accounts wherewith you have so deeply charged me , which consist of severall particulars : viz. You account me one that hath but fair flourishes of holinesse . Page 17. An Adversary to Christs Kingdome , and an open enemy and Persecutor of the Church . Pag. 18. A Scandalous Walker to the shame of the very name of Christian Religion . Pag. 20. Worse then a Heathen , a base and barbarous man. Pag. 21. One of the greatest Incendiaries in the Land. Pag. 25. A dishonest man of a Serpentine practice . Pag. 28. A hollow-hearted man of a shallow brain , a man , not onely whose heart is divided , but whose head is , &c. Pag. 29. The reckoning in the full sum ( by your account ) amounts to thus much , that I am an hypocrite , an unbeleever , a persecutor , a profane , wicked , base and barbarous man , an Incendiary , a Knave , a Serpent , a Dissembler , an Ignoramus , a mad Man , &c. Oh that ever such a soul condemning , heart accusing , head dividing Charge should be drawn up and published by a Quondam Fellow Sufferer ! Is this no railing nor bitter speaking because cunningly uttered by an Independent ? If sober men ( who are godly without faction ) judge of this your method , it will appear , and by them be truly voted , you have forgot the promise you made ( page the second ) ; for my part I leave it to the grave consideration of such . And I shall now speak a little to your great charge , of which a man might make a book in Folio , to set forth the sinfull sinfulnesse that lies closely coucht therein , with your furious smiting at my soul and body , which inforceth me to say , These are the wounds that I received in the house of my Friend , ( Zech. 13. 6. ) Yet because from a friend and a Quondam Fellow Sufferer , I presently bound them up , and should have been very sparing in opening and discovering of them again , could I have done it without prejudicing the life of my good name , and obscuring truth ; but for the preservation of the one , and the manifestation of the other , I am constrained not to neglect to lay them open , search their depth , declare their danger ; and what evill effects may ensue , and to poure in the soveraigne Balsome of a good conscience , and lay upon them the plaister of innocencie , which is the onely approved remedy for such desperate wounds . Now for your Bi●● of Accusations , and Defamations , I here in the presence of God , and before all men protest against it , absolutely denying the whole charge , and doe affirme , that neither you nor any mortall creature can truly make any one of the least particulars thereof good against me , although you have laboured hard , and taken a great deale of paines to do it , howsoever in the opinion of holy , wise , and learned men to little purpose . But waving that busines a little I will first discover the ground of your fury against me , and then goe on . You preach and write that Independencie according to your practise , is the onely way to advance Christ upon his Throne , and that narrow path which all Christians are commanded to walk in , but hitherto your confident saying so , is the strongest Argument you bring to maintaine your Assertion . Now in that I durst not take your bare word , nor no mansliving , have he never such fairepretences , in Gods matters , but with the Bereans searching the Scriptures , whether those things were so or no , and finding that way contrary to Gods Word and Apostoli call practise , having by cleare Scripture and Arguments grounded thereupon , discovered the errour of that way out of a Christian remorse and godly pitty to the soules of poore weake tender hearted Christians , who are easie to be seduced , and carried about with every wind of Doctrine , Ephes . 4. 14. Exhorted Magistrates , Parents , Masters , and all that feare the Lord in sincerity , to put to their helping hand to keepe the people from wandering into by-paths , and to see that they and their families together doe serve our God , live in his feare , and walke in the wayes of his commandements according to Scripture rule , and the example of the faithfull , holy servants of the Lord , &c. This forsooth is the ground of your quarrell which I thought fit to mention by the way of Preface , and for this you accuse mee to be an Adversary of Christs Kingdome , an open enemy and Persecutor of the Church ( and what not ? ) to which with a good conscience I answer you scandalize me , for according to the Apostles exhortation , 2 Tim. 2. 15. I have studied to shew my selfe approved unto God ; nay , further I say , I am ready , ( if the will of God be so ) to lay downe my life for the Regality , and Kingly office of Jesus Christ , and for the peace of his Church , but not in your notion having no warrant for it . Brother , give me leave to aske you the like question which Paul did the Galatians , Gal. 4. 16. Am I therefore ( an adversary to Christs Kingdome , a Persecutor ) become your enemy because I tell you the truth ? I appeale to the righteous Judge , to judge betweene you and mee herein ; and passe to other particulars in your charge , handling them together as they have neerest relation one to the other . Now where you speake of mee as if I were an Hypocrite , and boldly accuse me of walking scandalously to the shame of the very name of Christian Religion ; for these , and all your other false calumnies God who is the just Judge of all men , will one day call you to an account ; in the meane time let mee tell you , though your accusations be founded as deepe as hell , yet neither Satan , who is the Accuser of the Brethren , Revel . 1● . 10. nor any Instrument that hee doth worke in , or by , can be ever able in the words of truth to prove your charge ; but it is an old stratagem of Satan , when a man labours to walke uprightly , to feare God , and eschew evill , thus to accuse him ; for when God himselfe had declared the integrity of his servant Job , Iob. 1. 8. notwithstanding Satan durst accuse him to be an Hypocrite , and say that if God but put forth his hand to touch all that hee had , hee would curse God to his face , Iob. 1. 9 , 10 , 11. and when God gave Satan power over all he had , verse 12. and Job still blessed the name of the Lord , hee sinned not , nor charged God foolishly , verse 21 , 22. yet Satan went on in accusing Job , and ceased not untill God gave him power over his body , Iob 2. 5. 6. yea , his friends , through Satans instigation , spake against him , and condemned him to be a man who had onely shewes of Religion , or to use your words , faire flourishes of holinesse , Iob 4. 6 , 7 , 8. Iob 15. 2 , 3 , 4 , 5. Thus hath Satan dealt with mee , God gave him power over all I had , and over my body , hee cast mee into prison that I might be tryed , Revel . 2. 10. and hee hath stirred up such as should have beene and seemed to bee my friends , to accuse mee for an Hypocrite , a scandalous Walker , and what ever hee falsely suggests unto them , yet still I have , ( and will by the grace of God in mee ) retained mine Integrity , and with holy Iob , I answer you , and all such Traducers ; My witnesse is in Heaven , and my Record is on high : My friends scorne me ; but mine eye poureth out teares unto God , Iob 16. 19 , 20. Brother Burton , it cannot be denied , but that you and your party , have brought the same accusation against me , as Satan , and Iobs friends brought against him ; yet as God reproved them , & accepted of Iob , Iob. 42. 8. so my God whom I in truth and sincerity serve with the twelve Tribes of Israel day and night , Act. 26. 7. hath approved , and will accept of mee , maugre all the power , false accusations , Revilings , subtle Wiles , and workings of Satan ; for , as the Apostle saith , 2 Cor. 2. 11. I am not ignorant of his devises ; nay , herein I have comfort , because I know the faithfull servants of God in all ages have beene traduced and accused for Hypocrites , and scandalous Walkers ; wee reade 2 Cor. 10. 2. that the false Apostles did thinke , or reckon of Paul , as one that walked according to the flesh ; but as the Apostle speaketh to them , in the third verse of that Chapter , so I say to you , that though I walke in the flesh , yet I doe not warre after the flesh , &c. For I have lived in all good conscience before God untill this day , Act. 23. 1. But were all true you have said , and that of your owne knowledge , or could you by the testimony of honest , sober , and approved Christians , prove mee such an one , as you have decyphered me , it had beene a brotherly part , more Saint-like , and would have brought lesse scandall to the Gospel , if you had pleased to have made knowne betweene you and mee , wherein you conceived , or had been informed , that I walked scandalously ; and if I could not have cleared my selfe from all such wicked aspertions , and made it plainely appeare , that it was a malicious evill report raysed causelessely , then if you had reproved me sharpely , you had done as a Christian ought to doe ; For , to reprove sinne is warrantable , and an Argument of brotherly Love , Levit. 19. 17. but to receive a false report of me , or slily raise it up , and publish it in print , before you had laboured to restore mee in the spirit of meeknesse , according to the Apostles exhortation , Gal. 6. 1. or told me my fault betweene you and mee , and used all such other meanes to have gained a brother , as Christ our King and Law-giver hath commanded , Matth. 18. 15 , 16 , 17. is an open disobedience to his Royall Mandates , and doth demonstrate , that in all things you have not ( as you pretend ) obeyed Christ , nor made his will revealed in Gods Word your rule to walke by , and therefore you in this have not set him upon his Throne . And to that hell-hatcht charge which you have brought against mee , cunningly aspersing mee for a scandalous walker , &c. I answer , that as the Devill spake in the subtill Serpent and belyed God himselfe to our first Parents ; so the Inventors of this notorious untruth , who ever they be , are of a serpentine nature , into whom the Devill is entered , and having a full possession , speaketh in them being subtill and active Instruments to report Lyes ; and I am confident that upon due and just examination , it will appeare they are some shamelesse infamous creatures set a worke by the Devill , and prompted by Sectaries , to defame mee ; that there by the Gospel , my holy profession , and the wayes of God might be scandalized in blemishing my good name : and to have it with the more credit received , hee hath so ordered , That you must be the Herauld to proclaime their Devilish defamations , yet notwithstanding my innocencie triumphs in the middest of blacke mouthes slanders , being fully assured that God in his due time , will make a cleare discovery of their wicked designe , for hee is above the Devill : And before the Lord , that seeth the secret thoughts , imaginations , intentions of all men , in truth and faithfulnesse I speake it , I can , I doe , and by Gods grace ever shall , wash my hands in innocencie ; yea , I call upon the righteous Judge , the God of Heaven and Earth , who knowes my innocencie to judge betweene you and mee herein : For , God is my witnesse , that I have indeavoured to walke before him with an honest , sincere , faithfull , and upright heart , ever since hee gave mee the knowledge of himselfe . And during the time I was in the estate of nature , God by his preventing and restrayning grace kept mee from living or delighting in such sinnes , whereby any could truly charge me for a scandalous Walker . Therefore in the presence of this great God , who of his free grace hath Elected , Called , and Justified me through faith in his Son the Lord Iesus Christ , not suffering me to turne aside , neither to the right hand nor to the left , out of the paths of truth and that lead to holinesse : I solemnly protest , and hold out my Protestation to the view of the whole World ; you have most injuriously wronged mee , in proclaiming mee to be such an one ; For I am as blamelesse and free from your calumniations , as Naboth was from wicked Iezabels desperate plot , wherewith she tooke away his life , 1 King 21. 8 , 9 , 10. &c. and as innocent as Joseph , from the false accusations brought against him by his wanton , lascivious , and shamelesse mistresse , Gen. 39. 14 , 15 , 16 , 17 , 18 , which makes me bold to say , neither the Devill , any of his Instruments , no nor your selfe , in the words of truth , can prove the things whereof you have accused mee . I shal here conclude my answer to this Charge with the Apostle Paul's words , 1 Cor. 4. 3 , 4 , 5. But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you , or of mans judgement : yea , I judge not mine own selfe . For I know nothing by my selfe , yet am I not hereby justified : but he that judgeth me is the Lord. Therefore judge nothing before the time , untill the Lord come , who both will bring to light the hidden things of darknesse , and will make manifest the Councels of the heart : and then shall every man have praise of God. Brother , I have been the larger in my reply to this particular because it is the foundation and main pillar that may seem to hold up all your other Calumnies ; for if you could prove me to be a Scandalous walker , to the shame of the very name of Christian Religion , then men might easily be perswaded to beleeve your whole Charg ; But the foundation being so rotten and unfound , the superstructure cannot possibly stand . I now proceed to the fourth particular , and my Answer thereunto is , that no man of truth , worth , and piety , can justly taxe me either with basenesse or barbarism . For the fifth particular , it is elevated very high , and because you have in this exceedingly bestirr'd your selfe , I am necessitated ( for the clearing my self , & to vindicate the truth of what I have written ) to be somewhat large in my reply , that I may fully answer the Charge you bring against me therein , which is very great : viz. You accuse me to be one of the greatest Incendiaries in the Land , and to prove this you quote two passages in one of my bookes , and you bring them as two witnesses ; for the confirmation thereof , the first is in my Preface pag. 28. the second in my Postcript pag. 45. Now these two witnesses of your own ( say you ) want but a Judge judicially to pronounce sentence whether these words be not of an Incendiary nature and that in a high degree : For who 's so blind as doth not clearly see these fiery flashes and flames to fly in the face of that Army which God hath honoured with many Crowns of admirable Victories both at York , at Naseby , and at Lamport , with the recovery of Leicester , Bridgewater , Bath , &c. so as God hath made this despised Army , the Preservative of City and Country , the Repairer of the breach , the Restorer of the pathes to dwell in . Thus you . Brother , this accusation hath a Tower raised on the same Basis the whole Fabrick of your Charge is founded upon , and the foundation being deep , you dare build so high as ( if it were possible ) to over-top truth , not fearing the fall of your Babel ; but God , who is Truth it selfe , seeing the evill of your intentions , hath confounded your Language , as he did those builders who sought to get themselves a name , Gen. 11. 4 , 5 , 6 , 7. And therefore it will fall notwithstanding the height of its Tower. O what a confused relation have you made to prove me an Incendiary ! I assure you in all you have said , men of the clearest eye-sight , nay were they Eagle-ey'd , they can never discerne any truth where with you make good that Charge which you say is so conspicuous to the view of all men : For those two witnesses that you produce , thus they speak ( Preface pag. 28. saith ) They have the sword now in their hand , and they think their party strong enough to encounter any adverse and opposing party , and they professe they care not how soon they come to cutting of throats , and speak of nothing but the slaughtering and bunchering of the Presbyterians , and therefore there is just cause given us to think we may expect better quarter from the very enemies , then from the Independents . ( Postscript testifieth ) that the Independents boast they have such a party in the Kingdome , ( if their own words may be credited ) as they now think by the sword to be able to make their own laws ; and have been frequently heard say , that they had many abbettors in the Assembly , and in both Houses of Parliament and in many parts through the Kingdome , besides in all the Armies ; and they were all resolved to have the liberty of their consciences , or else they would make use of their swords , which they have already in their hands . So that most certain it is the Religion of too too many of them is a meer faction , &c. Now what these two have affirmed , can be corroborated by other witnesses , and if in your account he be an Incendiary that in detestation thereof hath set down their words by way of repetition to discover the danger of permitting such lawlesse spirits to go on in their unwarrantable wayes , what great Incendiartes are they that have imagined such things in their hearts and boldly spoken those words with their mouths ? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh , Matth. 12. 34. Luke 6. 45. as it can be proved Independents have done ; and so much the two witnesses you spake of said ; and no more ; for they accused not that Army , which God hath honoured with many Crowns of admirable Victories , &c. But you say , they cast fiery flashes and flames which do fly in the face of that Army , &c. Truly this is no other but a false Comment made by your selfe , from which you draw an evill inference , and then you cry out ( as a man overcome with passion ) saying , these words are not to be born : but I leave ( say you ) the judgement thereof to the wisdome and justice of the Parliament , whose former freeing of you extends not to cleare your words from being Incendiary . Thus farre you . Brother , I professe I am heartily sorry to see that you my Quondam Fellow Sufferer should so much forget your selfe , as not only bitterly , unworthily , and most falsly thus to inveigh against mee , but also to insinuate into the Parliament , as if they could not manifest their wisdome and justice , except they passe their judgement , and censure me according to your bill of Information . This violent prosecution , and your Canterburian expressions , make not me alone , but all other solid Christians wonder at your spirit : for you may please to call to mind , how one once professed he would not passe any sentence against You , my Brother Prynne , and My selfe , but left us as he said to the wisdome and justice of the Court , which was in the judgement of all that heard his whole speech , to pronounce us so highly guilty , that if the Lords there present , did not severely censure us , they would shew themselves neither wise , nor just . This president you have exactly followed against me but it will never Crown your head with honour ; and for the Parliament , it is their glory to slight troublesome informers : for should they hearken to every information invented and drawn up by the unsatisfied and turbulent spirits of some Independents , it would cloud their wisdome , and totally eclipse the shining of their Justice in our Horizon : But you cannot there obtain an Order to have your Bill taken pro confesso , and gain so much of the Parliament that I should not answer for my selfe ; therefore I may and will speak for my selfe in my just defence and shew how unjustly you have accused me ; And here I deny your Charg in every particular circumstance . But before I returne my answer thereunto , you having given me such a Theam to speak upon , as the due acknowledgement of Gods goodnesse in raising us up deliverers when City and Country were sorely afflicted and heavily oppressed on every side , in speaking of Gods providentiall care and severall actings in way of mercy to his people , I cannot omit ( by way of thankfulnesse to God and men ) to declare how that in the first place City and Country are deeply ingaged for ever next unto divine goodnesse to honour and highly esteem those Lords , Knights , Gentlemen , and Citizens who in the beginning of the Kingdomes troubles , like the Governours of Israel and the Princes of Issachar did offer themselves willingly among the people . Judges 5. 9. 15. whos 's very appearing in the cause was then of such concernment , that as it made the hearts of all who were truly godly to praise God for them , so thereby God made them the preservative of City and Country ; Insomuch that upon serious consideration we shall find , that those Noble Lords , and all those brave Commanders that adhered to them , who as Zebulon and Napthali jeoparded their lives unto the death , in the high places of the field , and exposed themselves to reproach , Judges 5. 18. are not to be over lookt , and their gallant undertakings obscured under a Sable cloud of unthankfulnesse , nor to be buried in the grave of Oblivion . For , when the Kingdome was in greatest danger , then God made use of them to preserve Citie and Countrey , raysing an Army by Land , and setting forth a Navie at sea , under the commands of the Right Honourable , thrice Illustrious , Faithfull , Valiant , and for ever to be highly honoured Lords , Robert Earle of Essex , and Robert Earle of Warwicke , whom hee made by sea , and land , instrumentall for the good and welfare of the Kingdome ; and the truth is , at this day , neither preservation nor safety could have beene expected in Citie and Countrey , as things then stood , had not these two Renowned Lords and Heroes , so nobly and undauntedly appeared in the cause , & undertaken the charge , and care upon them , one to be Admirall of the Navie at sea , the other to be Generall of the Parliaments forces by Land : For this their undertaking was in such a juncture of time , that had they out of selfe respects declined it , unlesse the Lord by a miracle had withstood and over-throwne our enemies , Citie and Countrey ( in all probability ) long before this time , would have beene over-run , and possessed by them , and no man should now have had peace in his going out or comming in : But by the valour , vigilancie , and faithfulnesse of our then Noble Admirall , our Seas were safe-guarded , by which meanes , forraine enemies were awed , home-bred enemies weakened , by surprizing many Ships , Armes , Ammunition , Instruments , and Preparations for warre , which were sent over into England , for the destruction of Citie and Countrey ; besieged Townes were by him relieved , as Lyme , Plymouth , &c. So that God made that Noble Lord by Sea ▪ the preservative of Citie , and Countrey , which lay open ready to be destroyed by cruell and bloody enemies . And as the Earle of War wicke by Sea , so had not the Earle of Essex , being Generall of the Parliaments Armies by Land , beene an experienced Commander , faithfull to their cause , and with a most Heroick and undaunted courage stood to the Battle at Edge-hill ( when by report whole Regiments ran away , and through feare deserted him ) there now would have beene no safety in Citie and Countrey . What had become of Citie and Countrey when Bristow was lost , aud Gloucester closely besieged , which though it was a long time , even beyond expectation valiantly maintained by Colonell Massie the then Governour thereof , that ever to be honoured Gentleman , had it not by the care and valour of that Noble Lord beene seasonably relieved , it could not possibly have held longer out , but must have beene delivered up unto the Enemie , and have beene made a prey for the Spoylers , and then what peace or safetie would Citie or Countrie have injoyed ? In a word , what had become of Citie and Countrie , if that Army under his command , and so gallantly incouraged by him had not incountered the enemies of our peace , and through Gods mercie victoriously discomfited their Forces severall times , as at Newbury , and at other places ? Truly it is by all , that will not manifest to the whole world that they are ungratefull to God , and unthankefull to men , ever to bee acknowledged , that the Earle of Essex , the Earle of War wicke , with those gallant Commanders , and Citizens in that Armie , and Navie commanded by them , deserve the first place of honour to be our preservers , some of whose names I shall by and by set downe , though I can never sufficiently set forth their praises and their merits , and to these many other worthy Generals must bee added with all those gallant Officers and Commanders under them , who commanded severall Armies , Regiments and Companies by Commissions from the Earle of Essex : as the Right Honourable , thrice Illustrious , Faithfull , Valiant , and for ever to be highly honoured Lord. Edward Earle of Manchester . The Earle of Denby . The Earle of Stanford . The Earle of Peterborrow , Generall of the Ordnance at Keinton . The Lord Robert , Lord Martiall of the field . The Lord Fairfax , and his son Sir Thomas Fairfax his Excellencie now Captaine Generall of the Forces raysed by the Parliament . The Lord Gray . The Lord Willoughby . Sir William Waller , Major Generall . Sir Arthur Haslerig . Sir William Brereton . Sir William Balfour Generall of the Horse . Sir John Merrick Generall of the Ordnance . Sir Philip Stapleton , Lievetenant Generall of the Ordnance . Sir Samuel Luke , Colonell , Governour of Newport-Pannell . Sir Robert Pye Collonel . Sir Edward Dods-worth Knight . Commissary Generall for the Musters of the Cavallary , with the Earle of Essex Lord Generall His Excellencie . Sir Iohn Gell. Sir Edward Peatoe Lievtenant Generall of the Ordnance at Keinton . Sir Iohn Meldrum Collonel . Major Generall Skippon . Collonel Massie . Collonel Hollesse . Collonel William Davis . Collonel Iames Sheefeild . Collonel Thomas Shefeild . Collonel Richard Graves . Collonel Dolbier . Collonel Brown. Collonel Essex slaine at Keinton Collonel Morgan . Collonel More . Collonel Rossiter . Collonel King. Collonel Poyns . Collonel Terrell . Collonel Dodson . Collonel Goodwin . Major Hercules Langerish . All these and many hundreds more , whose names are unknown to mee , none of the which were then Independents , yet whose fame , for their noble chivalry and gallantry in all their imployments , will live when Mortality is dead ; and truly for every one of these I have by name set downe , they are all of them men accomplished for all heroicall vertue , and such as of whom severally for their most excellent service , and severall engagements , even in difficultest times ▪ I could make a large Discourse , and yet that would not sufficiently set forth their due prayses ; for these first Actors under-went the heate of the day , and by their valour quelled the Enemy , as I have heard the Cavaliers themselves acknowledge ; and therefore all those noble Heroes and gallant Commanders , as I said before , have all of them primary right to that title Isay 58. 12. to be called the Repairers of the breach , the restorers of our pathes to dwell in ; for as much as when we were in great fears and unavoydable ruin did seem to threaten both Church and State , then God moved all their hearts to appear in his cause , and made them the preservative of City and Country , Whose undertakings , performances , faithfulnesse , valour , and Noble prowesse , ought to be predicated , and recorded , that future generations may know their deliverers , and admire Gods goodnesse who gave them magnanimous spirits to appear and expose themselves to danger for the Kingdomes safety in such a time , when the people were generally secure , ignorant of the miseries that were like to befall them , and their posterity , and so deluded with promises and protestations that the greater part in most Counties , withstood their own good , the peace and welfare of Church and State. And when the men in England lived delicately , and had been so long dandled in the lap of peace , that very few , none in comparison , had ever seen the formidable face of a reall fighting Army , nor had ever beheld the furious countenance of bloody war , whilst she encountreth with her enemies , but were unacquainted and altogether unexperienced with warlike affaires , and marshall discipline : yea , when City and Country were in great distractions and eminent danger , and when all things both by sea and land , were to be accomplished for the preservation thereof , with all manner of disadvantages , and the greatest hazzard and difficulty , that men could possibly meet withall ; and therefore I say again all these brave men have the primary right to be called the repairers of the breaches , the restorers of our pathes to dwell in . And next unto these illustrious ones , I pray good Brother looke upon the famous Citie of London , and on all the true hearted citizens in it , who stood close to the Parliament in the most dangerous times , and first rescued their Members questioned , and preserved them all from the jawes of imminent danger , and after that exposed themselves their lives , fortunes , and liberties in their quarrell , and stucke close to their cause , supplying them continually with Men , Monies , and Ammunition , and all manner of warlicke accoutrements , without whish the whole Kingdome had beene miserable ; Yea , in their owne persons in the Citie and in the Field they hazarded all their lives in the Parliaments and their countries service , so as they also may justly challenge a share in the next place to those noble Worthies above mentioned , to be counted the Repairers of our breaches , and Restorers of our paths to dwell in ; and therefore I shall desire you Brother , and all those of your Fraternity to give the next place of honour to this Renowned Citie . And whiles I am now speaking of such as have deserved well , and merited the name ( under God ) of being preservers of our pathes to dwell in : I pray let us not forget out brethren the Scots whose faithfull service deserves eternall gratitude and an everlasting memory , who also stood in the breaches when we were but in a low condition , who for our assistance exposed their own lives , fortunes and countries to the fury and rage of many a potent enemy , and indured incredible hardship at home and abroad , undergoing many miseries , and that at such a season of the year as was enough to have killed them , to lie in the field , and made their Country a prey for the spoilers , who used barbarous and mercilesse cruelties upon them , many of their brave and gallant commanders and gentlemen also dayly loosing their lives and wallowing in their own blood , and all for our preservations ; and therefore they may , under God , duly challenge the third place of honour to be reputed the Repairers of our breaches and Restorers of our pathes to dwell in : whose kindnesse , brother , I could wish that those of your party may never forget . And I may not whiles I enumerate those that have deserved the name of deliverers , omit here to speak of all the faithfull Presbyterian Ministers in this City as well as through Country , those Chariots and Horsemen of our Israel though now forgotten , many of the which not onely ventered their lives in battell , but by holding up their hands as Moses did when the people of Israel fought against the enemy , and by the lifting up their hearts and voices to God with strong cryes made all our Armies abroad and our Counsells at home to prosper , and all our undertakings happily to succeed . Neither is that all , but by their wisdome vigilancy , and powerfull and perswasive preaching they were the principall means under God of keeping the people here and every where in obedience to the Parliament by resolving their doubts , satisfying their scruples , and going before the people to their abilities , yea ( many of them to my knowledge out of zeal to the cause ) beyond their abilities in all contributions , animating and incouraging others to bring in their Plate and Moneys and whatsoever was of price and esteem with them exhorting them now if ever to stand for their Religion , Lives , Liberties and the Liberty of the Subject : And as by their indeavours they did exceedingly promote the cause through City and Country ; so many of them did the Parliament very good service in discovering secret and powerfull enemies by which they were disabled to do mischiefe . In a word I peremptorily assert it , that next under God the whole Kingdome are bound to be thankfull to the Ministers who strengthned the hands and hearts of the souldiers everywhere to battell and made them stick close to their severall Commanders and Captaines , who without their souldiers could never have done any thing of moment for our deliverance ; and all the people through the associated Counties especially may thank their painfull and faithfull Ministers that they now live in peace and tranquillity under their severall Vines and Figtrees ; and therefore the condemnation of those men sleeps not that for all their Ministers care for them and their pains taken both to preserve them in a bodily being and for converting their souls , in lieu of thankfulnesse do not onely reproach them with odious and infamous names , but would deprive them also of their livelyhoods and take away their tythes from them . Such ingratitude was never heard of in any nation before , but there was eminent danger insued upon it ; for in the second of the Chronicles the last chapter , when the Lord sent his Prophets and Servants amongst them early and late calling them to repentance , and the people despised them , it is related that they provoked God so much by it , as there was now no remedy and medicine left to cure the nation : I pray God the same may not happen to this ungratefull nation , who you brother and your complices have inraged against our faithfull and zealous Ministers , who notwithstanding whatsoever the Independent party can say , may challenge also a share and that a great one in that honour to be counted the Repairers of our breaches and the Restorers of our paths to dwell in ; and all this before the battell of Yorke and Nazeby , in both which the Independents did not do all the service as is pretended , and who all of them have deserved as well from the Parliament and the whole Country as before . This , brother Burton , being premised , I come now to answer your Charge ( which as I formerly said ) I do absolutely deny . And here I affirme that after these two noble Earls , and other of our honourable and ever to be highly renowned worthies , ceased from their warlike imployments and commands by sea and land ; The Army which God hath since made the preservative of City and Country , It is that Army under the Command of his Excellency Sir THOMAS FAIRFAX ( which is imployed in all parts and quarters of this Kingdom ) whom with the whole body , I honour , and every particular member thereof , as they have done worthily . And whereas you accuse me to be an Incendiary , and say those forecited words are flashes and flames to fly into the face of that Army , I am ready upon oath to depose , that it is a false mischievous Calumny conceived in the fiery brain of some Independent , and brought forth into the world by your strong passion . Further I averre there is none so blind but they can discerne a mystery of iniquity in your expressions : for it is generally known That there are many more Presbyterians then Independents in that Army , yea ten to one , which God hath now made victorious every where , and of them as valiant men as ever drew sword , or wore iron , being experienced Souldiers , gallant Stormers , and as a man may say , even the Cream of the Kindome , and the whole ●eareth its denomination from the greater part , or the better , which the Independents are not . Now looking on the Army as it is united to one head under the command of one chiefe Generall , and whether dispersed East , West , North , South , yet hath acted together to be the Preservative of City and Country , is that the victorious despised Army you speak of ? No , no , you will not hear of that , but you divide that Army which God hath made so instrumentall for the Kingdomes safety , and you overlook the greatest part thereof as if they were uselesse men and had done nothing for the preservation of City and Country ; this may prove the work of an Incendiary indeed , what ? will you attribute all the honour of those many glorious victories which God hath crowned the whole Army with , but onely to a part of that Army ? This is a derogating and dividing language , yet as in your writings , so in the publike Assemblies , and where ever any Independents preach or pray , you , and they , agree in this language , saying , It is the godly party , the praying people , that despised Army , that some speak evill of , that God hath done such great things by . Now none are called nor accounted the godly party with you and those of your judgement , but Independents and Sectaries ; so that it is plain you give all that Honour which is due to the whole Army , onely to the least part thereof ; by which course you endeavour to divide in the esteem and opinion of men that Army , which God and the State have joyned and made one . But for my part , God is my witnesse so far have I been from casting fiery flashes and flames to flie in the face of that Army or any part of it , that I have , I do , and ever shall acknowledge , all the Worthies of that Army have done gallantly , and that for their wisdome , faithfulnesse , valour , and victories they are ever to be renowned , the whole body have purchased perpetuall honour , and the Kingdome is bound to ascribe to God all praise and glory : But herein you are failing , when you divide that Army , as by your expressions you plainly do , and upon all occasions sacrifice to your own net , by which practice you seek what lies in you to discourage the hearts and weaken the hands of the body of that Army , and to cast secret Fire-brands , which may break forth into flames of discontent , and so cause hot and burning Emulations amongst our valiant and couragious Heroes , when they hear and see themselves slighted , and quite stripped of the honour and due praises that God hath made them equall shares of . We read 1 Sam. 18. 6 ▪ 7. When the women came forth to meet King Saul , with joy and singing , answering one another ( and as they chanted out their notes , running division in their songs ) said , Saul hath slain his thousands , and David his ten thousands , that their ascribing more to David then to Saul made him very wrath , and the saying displeased him , ( yea it wrought sad effects ) yet they did not ascribe all the honour of the victory to David ; for they allowed Saul his thousands : But you deal not so impartially and ingenuously with that Army , which God hath now made the Preservative of City and Country , &c. Certain it is such writings , prayers and dividing practices are of a dangerous consequence , if not of an Incendiary nature . You proceed to double your Charge , and in the 26. Page of your book thus expresse your selfe , further ( say you ) to discover your spirit against those Worthies in the Army , you go about to eclipse the glory of that famous victory at Marston-moore ; for speaking contemptuously of it , you say , some of the Independents stood to it in the Battell of York , when others of them ran away ; for they ran as well as others : and if they be not Lyars all the other Independents had ran away too , and left the field , if they had known what had happened in the other parts of the Army : Then you make what construction your own fantasie frameth and dictates unto you upon those words in my Postscript Page 68. after which you go on in your discourse , saying , I can produce those that were actors in that Battell and are no Independents , that affirme , there was no running away at all , of those whose valour you so vilifie : yea , though they did perceive how the matter went with some , as when a whole body flies , a thing with no great difficulty to be discerned . So you . Brother , I entreat you take a view of what you have said , and then consider the incongruity of your relation ; for can it be properly said that it is a discovering of my spirit against those Worthies in the Army , and a seeking to eclipse the glory of that famous Victory at Marston-moor and a speaking contemptuously of it , because I say some of the Independents stood to it in the Battell at York , when others ran away ? Let all rationall men judge , for surely there cannot be a greater contradiction , nor more confusion of language . What ? is it a discovering of my spirit against those Worthies in the Army , to say they stood to it in the Battell at Yorke ? Doth it not rather crown their heads with Lawrell , and speak honour to their persons who ever they were that did stand to it in the Battell of either party , whether Presbyterians or Independents ? for as some of both parties did run away , yet divine providence so ordered it ( that God alone might have the glory ) that some of both parties valiantly stood to it ; and thus much is in part acknowledged by your selfe , when you say , you can produce those that were actors in that ▪ Battell , and are no Independents , &c. So that by your own confession they were not all Independents , ( no nor the greatest part according to the relation of many , who were also actors in that Battell ) by whom God gave us that famous Victory . Then this is out of question . I but ( say you ) those actors affirme that there was no running away at all , of those whose valour you so much vilifie , &c. Brother , judge not rashly , but assure your selfe , I have more man-hood in me then to vilifie true valour ; for I professe I do , and ever shall honour a Valiant man , whosoever he be . But is speaking the truth , and ascribing to all our Worthies their due honour without respect of persons , become a vilifying of Valour with you ? this is Independent Rhetorick , and so deep , that every one as yet doth not understand it , neither will I here undertake to unfold the meaning and Mystery of it ; onely give me leave without offence to tell you , That if any do affirm there were no Independents that ran away , when others stood to it in the Batell at York , their affirmation is most false , though happily unknown to them so to be : now their ignorance herein may convince you of your errour , and bring you to the knowledge of this truth , viz. that one Wing of an Army , may be discomfited and flying , yet in the heat of the battle the other Wing being deeply ingaged at that present time , may not know how it fareth with them nor see their flight , and if a whole Body be worsted as the wind may set and drive the smoak , the ingaged party cannot possibly presently discern it . Thus it was at that famous battle at Marston-moore , as I have been informed by such as were Actors in that Battle both Presbyterians and Independents . And that some Independents did then run away as well as others , and of them not a few , nor all of the meanest rank and quality , is a reall truth : But if you will not give credit to what I say , that you may not hereafter with such great confidence put in Print false informations as you too too often do , I refer you to Leiutenant Coll : Iohn Lilburne , who was there at the beginning of that Battel ; and for your better satisfaction enquire of him , whether some Independents did not run away , and also whether I have spoken any thing concerning that Battell , but what he himselfe knows , and hath reported for a truth , as can be proved . I could tell you the names of some Independents that did run away & those not a few and none of the least esteem amongst you ; but I forbear , unlesse to cleer the truth I am inforced thereunto ; for I know , that upon a discomfiture in the day of battell , gallant men , valiant , and experienced souldiers , have sometimes been glad to run : And therefore what I there writ in my Post-script , was not to vilifie any , but to give to every man his due honour which you and others of your Judgement did then , and still do most injuriously rob and wholly strip them of , who dissent from your opinions ; and if ever you , or any of your party , shall so far prevail with the honourable Court of Parliament , to question me for those words , I doubt not , but as formerly I have found Justice , so then I shall finde the like , and be cleered both by Lords and Commons , from the reproach of being an Incendiary . Truly brother Burton , when I read your lines , and see how much you ascribe unto men , and how little you speak of God upon all occasions , I cannot but wonder : for the truth is , in all your language you never speak of your party , who you call the confiding men , the wel-affected in the Army , the godly party , but you count them and them only the saviours of the Kingdome , the restorers of our paths to walk in , and this is your own dialect , God is not so much as named many times to my knowledge in your ordinary discourses : although God hath given a caveat against such expressions and speakings , Deut. 9. where the Lord charged all his people by a threefold prohibition that they should not ascribe the glory or honour of their victories to their own righteousnesse , or to their own arme ( which is the Independents dayly practice to say their party have done all ) to teach all men that there is nothing that more displeaseth God then to give his glory to men that can deserve nothing at his hands who is ever to have the sole glory and honour of casting the horse and rider into the sea ; yea in expresse words it is often declared in holy Scripture , that God can save by few as well as by many , and that a King is not saved by the multitude of an host , and that the horse is prepared for the battell , but God gives the victory ; and all this to teach us ever to give the glory of all victories to God onely and to ascribe the honour to him . Now then when we have so many witnesses that God is the Saviour of his people and the Restorer of our paths to dwell in , and a speciall command to give him the praise of it ; how is it Brother , that there is nothing in your mouth more frequent , yea in your Pamphlets and prayers , then that those men you call the godly party in the Army have done the whole work in this War , yea and are the only saviours of the people and the healers up of our breaches and the restorers of our paths to dwell in ? robbing both God of his glory and all the other gallant men that indeed under God did the work of their due honour and praises , who had in all respects a far greater share in all the victories obtained against the enemy , as being farre better souldiers and better Christians and valianter men , and the more in number by far ten to one then the Independent party . And that both at Marston-moore and Naseby , as in its due place will appear to all future ages . But because Brother you have particularized the Battell at Marston-moore , ascribing the glory of that victory wholy to your party , and extreamly wrongfully accuse me about that businesse , I shall here therefore set down what I find writ by a stedier hand then yours concerning that Battell , and by such an one as I know would not divulge an untruth to the world : neither would I have made use of his testimony , not withstanding I know the truth of it , but that I am able my selfe to prove what he hath writ by a cloud of witnesses that were there and received many wounds in that Battell , and against whom there can be brought no just exception : the words of the Author are these . In this Battell , saith he , ( speaking of Marston-moore ) divers gallant men of both Nations had an honourable share of the Victory : but none I hear of , without disparagement to any , did appear so much in action that day with gallantry , as David Lesley . Here those of the party we spake of a little before : ( viz. the Sectaries and Independents ) to indear themselves to the people , attribute unto themselves the honor of the day , and stick not to call one of theirs the Saviour of the three Kingdoms , when god knows he that they then did extoll so much , did not appear at all in the heat of the businesse ; having received at the first a little scar , he kept off till the worst was past . This had not been spake of at all ( saith the Author ) if some idle men to gull the world had not given the honor of the day to those who had but little or no share in it . And all this that this Author relateth can be proved by an Iliad of witnesses to be true ▪ and as this testimony is true , so many more witnesses , and those men of reputation , can be brought to prove that the victory hath been wholly ascribed unto the Independent party in other Battells and Skirmishes when they have been many miles of from the very place ; and if there be but any commander of their party in any imployment though he strike but one stroke , then he carries away all the honour from the rest , and they have their pentionary pen-men both in the Army and at London to do this feat for them , to give them the praise and honour of it , to indeare themselves into the people , and all to delude them ; and so it was at that Battell ; the Presbyterians underwent the heat of the day , and the Independents challenge the honour . Thus much Brother you have forced me to speak , and now I go on . Brother , for the other particulars which to please your selfe , and set forth your passion , you charge me withall , I will answer them as they lie . And here I protest before the Lord , I have never dealt dishonestly , nor Serpent-like with you nor any creature living , or that ever did live upon the earth : Also that my heart is sound unto my God , firme , and filled full with Christian Love to all that fear his Name , and walk before him in truth and sincerity . And for my brain , it is not so shallow , but that through the wisdome which is given me of God , who giveth to all men liberally and upbraideth not , Jam. 1. 5. I can discern into the depth of Error , and am able by Gods assistance to make it appear to all whose eyes are open to see the clear sun-shine of the truth , That the way of your Independency is not grounded on the Word of God , but its rice , continuance , and increase hath for the foundation thereof , onely the fantasie , ambition , private interest , self-seeking , and cunning practices ( with a seeming hollownesse ) of some subtill and unstable spirits . And likewise , for the whole universe , I assure you it never did nor never can bring in a just verdict , and say , I am a man not onely whose heart is divided but whose head is , &c. For the whole universe hath been and is so far from bringing in any such verdict , that grave , learned , godly , zealous , and holy men ( in the Reformed Churches ) have given in another verdict of me , whose Testimonies I can shew for my godly Life , Learning , and blamelesse Conversation , whilest I lived amongst them beyond the Seas ; and I have the like from the most eminent , godly , learned men where ever I have inhabited in this Kingdome ; yea , many Letters of late time I have received from godly learned men both at home and abroad that have read my Books , whose faces I never saw , and by them it plainly appeareth that the chiefe , pious , orthodox , learned men of the whole universe , esteem of me as a man of piety and learning , and not ( according to the Character you have given of me ) as a man not onely whose heart is divided , but whose head is , &c. Therefore I having such a plaister made by such conscionable , skilfull , and learned Phisitians and men of reputation , it is approved of by all that are rationall and godly , to be efficacious not onely to salve this sore , but to keep from festering , and perfectly heal up the severall wounds I have recived from you and your fraternity , although you have all cut deep , and many wayes , wounding me in my Religion , in my Reputation , in my good Name , ( all which are more precious unto me , then my life ) and then with one blow indeavouring to divide my heart and head , to make the wounds irrecoverably mortall . But if such actions proceed from Independent principles , and the new light they pretend to walk by , doth guide you or any of them into these wayes , seeing such instruments of cruelty are in their habitations ( to murther innocent men in their good names , which is greater cruelty and more wrong to an honest godly man , then to take away his naturall life ) with good old Jacob Gen. 49. 6. I say , O my soul come not thou into their secret : unto their Assembly mine honour be not thou united , &c. Now to conclude my Answer to your Charge , where you speak of me as if I were mad . Thus the Prelaticall faction in their time spake of me and of all who in sincerity and uprightnesse of heart opposed their erroneous opinions , unwarrantable wayes and sinfull practises : and it is no new thing for such who wander from the truth to walk in the by-paths of error , and to think and speak of any that hold out and maintain the truth , that they are mad and besides themselves ; thus Festus thought and spake of Paul Act. 26. 25. And thus it hath pleased you ( cunningly , but more scornfully ) to speak of me ; yet as the Apostle replyed to him , so I do to you , I am not mad ( Brother and Fellow Sufferer ) but speak forth the words of truth and sobernesse . And here in the words of truth and sobernesse I averre , whereas you say , Pag. 25. there wants but a Judge judicially to pronounce sentence on the former repeated words in my Postscript , that it is obvious to all men you assumed the place of a Judge , ( though not a judiciall one ) and have proceeded so far , not onely to pronounce an unjust sentence against me , but by your usurped authority to judge my heart , which power is peculiar to God alone Who searcheth the hearts and tryeth the reines Psal . 7. 9. Jer. 11. 20. and will give to every man according to his wayes , and according to the fruit of his doing , Jer. 17 , 10. Revel . 2. 23. Yea , further I say , there is none so weak-sighted , but they may plainly see , how you , and other Independents , do make it your master-piece to use dividing and traducing language , slighting all men that differ from your opinions , as if they had neither piety , wit , nor learning in them . And were not you grown very skilfull in these faculties , you would never have falsly accused , sat Judge , condemned the whole man , and then have turned Executioner , to divide my heart and head as you have done . For all which the Lord humble you low before him , giving you repentance not to be repented off ; and never lay these your causlesse , passionate , unadvised , and unbrotherly dealings with me , unto your Charge . But before I passe on , good brother give me leave here a little to parly with you . You say Pag. 25. There wants but a Judge judicially to pronounce sentence on the former words in my Postscript , &c. But that needs not , you have already done it for your purpose , though not judicially ; but it seems you would have me judged twice for one and the s●me but conceived offence , which is very tyranny ; yea I must tell you that you have proceeded in your censure already against me , contrary unto all the laws of God , Nature and Nations , and all humanity ; yea by a more tyrannicall law then that of the High Commission Court or Star-Chamber , all which by Gods assistance I shall evidently make appear . For the manner of proceeding in all Courts of Justice appointed by God ( to say nothing how they never condemn a man twice for one and the same but conceived crime ) was , that none should be condemned but by the mouth of two or three witnesses . And by the law of Nations their Courts of Justice were ever open to implead any prevaricators against their laws , observing ever an ordinary way and manner of proceeding in them , which were appointed by the Statutes and Ordinances of their several Countries . Now the conditions and requisites for a Judiciall Proceeding , were . First , that the parties questioned should first be cited and summoned into the Court , and this was to be done either by Articles or Bill , or Allegation , Libell or Petition , Information or Accusation exhibited into the Court against the pretended Delinquent , before any Sentence could passe against him . Secondly the party accused was to be heard speak and plead for himself before Sentence might pass against him , except he wilfully neglected the Summons and so declined his appearance : for so it was ordered by the law of God and practised by all his people in the worst times , as we may see in Nicodemus , who to convince the Jews of injustice in their proceedings against the Lord of life , said unto Christs enemies , Doth our law condemn any man before we have heard him ? Yea , this was Gods own method before the destroying of Sodom and Gomorrah , who came down to see and know whether al things were according to the cry that was come up into the Court of Heaven : And it was the practice of all Judges and in all Courts of Judicature to proceed secundum allegata & probata , the parties ever being brought before them face to face , or otherwise they did not judicially pronounce sentence against them . Thirdly , all things were to be proved by sufficient witnesses and by men without exception , such as were people of worth and credit , of no infamous and beastly life , and by such as bare no grudg or hatred against the party questioned , and against whom the party accused could pretend no just exception : for all men know that malice can neither think , speak , or write wel of any they malign ( witnesse your book against me ) so that if the party complained against could make it appear that the witnesses were his mortall enemies , and that they were men or people of a vitious life and conversation or guilty of any heinous crimes and offences , and with ▪ all that they were enemies and implacable adversaries unto him , there was then a caution in law that such men might be excepted against , and their testimony was not to be admitted without there were other more apparent evidence of the truth . And although the High Commission and Star-Chamber were the most corrupt Courts in the Kingdome , yet even in those Courts there was an appearance of justice in this kind , so that if any man had any just exception against any mans testimony , if it did not totally overthrow their witnesse , which it many times did , yet it so enervated their evidence that it was never so valid and prejudicall to him as otherwise it would have been ; as you your selfe can witnesse it was in my cause in the High Commission Court , where I making it appear by sufficient witnesse that Thomas Newcomin and John Danet , and Richard Daniel had formerly been expunged in the Chancery for Knaves , and had for that out of malice put me up into it , were all my adversaries and perjured varlots , their testimony by the whole Court was rejected , and they were by them all accounted a company of Knaves all over soul and body , for so some of the Court said of them , and I was onely condemned for my book : And this part of Justice in many causes remained even in those Courts in the worst of times ; & in all Courts of the world there was ever leave and liberty given unto the accused to make his just defence and bring in the evidences of his own innocency and non-guiltinesse , & his just exceptions against both his accusers prosecutors and witnesses , and this by the very law of nature , for so said Festus , that it was not the manner of the Romans to condemn any before they had been brought face to face with their adversaryes , and that they had bin fully heard what they could speak for themselves : for otherwise if they had condemned any without either of the former conditions , they had not proceeded according to law nor condemned them judicially . Fourthly , those that are judged judicially , and according to the Lawes of God and nations , they must ever be within the jurisdiction of that Court , and of those that judge them , and under their Lawes . Neither doe any wise Judges take any cognizance of things without their jurisdiction : and if any should bee so unjust or unadvised to attempt any such thing , the party accused hath the benefit of his Appeal , as wee see in the cause of Paul , when hee appealed from the Tribunall of the Jewes to Caesars Barre . And all men know , that the Courts of one Countrey doe not judge and condemne the subjects that dwell in an other , and that are under an other government ; yea , the Courts secular , and the Courts Ecclesiasticall , even in the same Kingdomes and Common-wealths doe not intermeddle with one an others imployments , except it be by speciall appeale which is granted unto them by some caution upon just occasions , but they leave each Court to the managing of those causes that are of speciall cognizance there and within their jurisdiction ; for otherwise it would breed confusion speedily in a Country , and therefore those distinct Courts and Jurisdictions take the cognizance of those things onely that are peculiar and proper to themselves , and within their spheare , and never intermeddle and exercise any power over others that are out of their jurisdictions , be they never so facinorous , or accused of never so high a crime ; yea , if any information or accusation be put up against any man into any Court , be it true or false , if the Judges conceive that the parties impleaded against belong unto an others jurisdiction they will send them thither to be judged , and decline sentencing of them ; and this method of judgement the very Law of nature teacheth all men ; yea Pontius Pilat though a most wicked and unjust Judge , yet understanding that Christ was of Galilee , of which Herod was the Tetrarcke or Governour , and conceiving him to be under Herods jurisdiction he sends him forthwith unto Herod , intimating that the examination and tryall of his cause peculiarly belonged unto him , if Christ were judicially to be proceeded against . Yea , Paul himselfe saith , What have I to doe to judge those that are without ? Those that were without in Pauls opinion , and under an other jurisdiction , hee professed that hee had nothing to doe with them . The fifth thing required for the judiciall proceeding and handling of any cause , is this , that they that are to be Iudges may not be both parties , witnesses , prosecutors , Iury , and Iudges in the same cause ; for it they be , they cannot be said judicially to give sentence . All that I now write unto you Brother , I am confident your conscience tels you is just and true . Now in all nations and well governed Kingdomes and countries , if there have beene any faylings in either of these conditions and requisites , the subjects have the benefit of the Law against both their Prosecutors and Iudges , and may appeale unto the King , or supreame Court of judicature in the Kingdom , & crave justice there against such Iudges , and such proceedings , and if they cannot obtaine justice there , God will call them to an account one day for it : for , in the judgement of all men such proceedings have ever beene counted illegall and unjust , and all those Iudges that have at any time given sentence , without observing those rules and conditions , did never censure any man judicially , neither can their judgement be said to be judiciall in any just mans understanding . Now Brother , if your proceeding against mee be examined by these rules , and by such men as are judicious and truly godly without faction , you will not be thought judicially to have censured & condemned me : for it is most certain you have not in all the carriage of this busines beene a judiciall Iudge ; for in this your sentence you have gone against all the Lawes of God and nature ; yea & against the practice of the most corrupt Courts in the world , in that you have accused me , arraigned me and condemned mee , without either Articles , Bill , Libell , ( saving your owne Booke ) allegation or information , and without any lawfull citation into your Court , or any Court , you have also condemned mee before I knew who were my Accusers , and that without hearing mee ever speake for my selfe ; yea , you have condemned and adjudged me an innocent man withou any lawfull witnesse ; for as I am not conscious to my selfe of ever having done any thing that deserves convention before any Court of Iud icature in this world , much lesse to have sentence given against mee , so I am most assured that if ever these your dealings against mee shall be brought to a tryall , and a judiciall hearing indeed , as they may be , if the time once grows more quiet ; I shall make it clearly and evidently appeare , that the ground of this your beastly accusation brought against me , viz. that I am a scandalous Walker to the shame of the very name of Christian Religion , did first arise from one of the most infamous & notorious creatures , though an Independent , that now lives upon earth for all manner of villanies , a shame & dishonor to her name & kindred , known to be one of the most prodigious impudent Whores that is this day in the world , except the Whore of Babylon ; and yet originally and primarily from that creature , or from such as are as bad as her selfe , have you grounded your most unbrotherly and extra judicall judgement against mee , and so you have made your selfe party , witnesse , Iury and Iudge in this your owne cause , and which is more have condemned one that is in your opinion without , and out of your jurisdiction ; whereas Paul had taught all Christs Disciples by a Statute Law from Heaven , that they should not judge those that are without : now you account mee and all the Presbyterians to bee enemies of Iesus Christ , and such Saints as Iob would not set with the dogs of his flocke , and proclayme us all the sonnes of Belial , as your learned Works can sufficiently witnesse ; and therefore you account us all without , and yet you condemne me , and that in the face of the whole world , as guilty of all those foule crimes you charge me with , whereas you had nothing to doe with mee , I being out of your jurisdiction : I pray tell me courteous Brother , whether this your proceeding be to set up Christ as King upon his Throne , and be judicially to condemne any Brother ? when it is apparently manifest by these your actions you transgresse all the Lawes of Christ our King , and trample them under your feet ? for Christ hath taught all his people and subjects , saying , Matth. 18. If thy brother offend thee , tell him of it betweene him and thee , &c. and againe , hee hath said , judge not lest yee be judged , and againe , there shall be judgement without mercy to him that shewes no mercy ; againe God hath said , hee that condemnes the righteous , and hee that justifies the wicked , they are both an abomination to the Lord ; whether therefore by all these your proceedings against mee you have not violated all these most holy Lawes and Statutes , I shall leave to the judgement of others . Brother you may remember in the 17. page of your Booke , speaking there what you will doe when you come to my Postscript ( which you have finely performed ) you aske mee whether or no , when you make mention of it my mind doth not misgive me ? your words are these , which when I mention here ( say you ) doth not your mind misgive you ? for answer I tell you no : for I am able to prove every word of that Booke by sufficient witnesse , and out of the very Independents writings ; yea , their daily practises have made good every period of it , and so farre I am that my mind should misgive mee at the mention of it for doing my duty , that I will with all speed print it againe with some little inlargement concerning your New-lights , and other of your grolleries . But this by the way . But because Brother , you take that liberty to propound now and then questions to me , I will here also use the same freedome with you : Therefore tell me I pray the next time I heare from you , whether or no your mind doth not misgive you when I mention your bookes , and when you thinke what you have done against mee in thus condemning mee , and adjudgeing an innocent man , and your quondam Fellow-sufferer ? Brother had you to deale with some man , hee would recriminate , which would not be for your honour ; but for the present I content my selfe to have declared my innocency ; only by the way consider what you did to my reverend Brother , Master George Walker , a man to whom you were so much ingaged to ; and when I mention him , doth not your heart misgive you ? But enough of this . Now before I conclude this my parley with you ; I will say thus much concerning your new Courts , in your new gathered Churches , if this be your way of proceedings there , to be witnesse , party , Iury , and Iudge in your owne cause , and when you have given sentence against the innocent if ther be no appeale : then your Courts are worse , and more tyrannicall then that of the High Commission , or Star-chamber ; and for ought I know all such arbitrary Courts as your are , and all such arbitrary and unjust Iudges as you are , may as well be questioned , censured and put downe , for all these your illegall , unjust , and extrajudicall proceedings , as either they or any other tyrannicall Courts were ; and truly it concernes the whole Kingdome now seriously to looke about them , and to have a speciall eye to your Jndependent proceedings and Iudgements : for if they bee not timely looked unto , all the repairing of our breaches , and all the restoring of our pathes to dwell in which you make mention of , will be no such thing to the poore Presbyterians , who cannot already passe quietly in the streets for you : nor any man avoyd your uniust censures , nor the filth both of your tongues and pens , which you cast in our faces every step wee goe . The Lord rebuke you for these your revilings . Truly Brother , I see a divine hand of justice against you in many passages , though you looke loftily , and speake great swelling words , in all which you breath out hell , and your own shame , the Lord I hope in time will discover unto you all your vanity , and sinfulnesse . I will say thus much of you , that whiles you used the sharpenesse of your parts against the common enemy , you were very serviceable to the Church of God ; but now turning the edge of them against your Christian brethren ▪ you have through their sides both wounded your selfe , and all those of your party , as I am most assured they will all assert . Yea , I can ascertaine you of this , that it is exceedingly admired by many , that you having beene some yeares in captivity under the Prelates tyrannie , should continue such a trewant in the schoole of affliction , as not yet to have learned the lesson of patience , so that you cannot digest a merry word , or but a conceived Iest . But this they are most of all stranged at , that out of the height and greatnesse of your spirit you will strike your enemy , though it be through the sides of Religion , and the Christian cause ; and truly this your dealing with all your Christian brethren , especially with my selfe , cals for deepe and serious repentance at your hands . For my part , I freely forgive you , and do professe it is a griefe unto my soul that you have drawn me out with such violence in forcing me to encounter with you by name ; it 's true , the erroneous wayes , opinions and false lights ( under the name of new ) lately held forth , I did and cannot but write against , they being contrary to sacred writ ; yet you my Brother , and Quondam Fellow Sufferer , I reverenced and did ever love , honour and esteem , and had it not been to wipe off those black reproaches wherewith you have laboured to besmear me all over , making me appear to the world as a man spotted and defiled with scandalous walking , an Hypocrite , a Persecutor , a mad man , &c. I professe out of tender respect to your person , and sufferings , as I have hitherto spared your name , so I would now have over lookt your false aspersions ; but seriously considering the great and deep Charge you have brought against me ( wounding truth thorow my sides ) upon the due deliberation thereof , I plainly perceived without dishonouring God , and being cruell to my self , I could not be silent , for that my taciturnity might cause truth & the ways of God to be evil spoken of , and give an occasion to censorious spirits to vote me guilty of those Malversations wherewith you so slily & unjustly have accused me ; all which my soul hates and ever did utterly abhor ; therefore although I was forwarder to pity your passion , and more desirous to pass by your miscarriages , then to take notice of them , or divulg the weaknesses and too too grosse failings of you my Brother ; yet your Charge being of a high nature and published in Print , it necessitated me to reply lest I should seem to approve of the murthering of my good name ; So that meerly to preserve the life thereof , you have extracted from me these lines , that men may know it lies upon you to prove it , ( for I stand upon my justification and protest against every one of your foul Calumnies , as notorious untruths : ) And likewise that all who fear the Lord may be fully assured , however you have rendred me to the world as one who hath a name to live but am dead , ( so that I may stink in the opinion of such as are holy ) yet I do live to my God , who I doubt not will discover the bottome and mystery of this iniquity . For herein you have dealt with me as the Papists did with Reverend and Learned Mr John Calvin , raising and publishing untruths , accusing him for a scandalous walker , and as guilty of abominable sins , making his very name odious ; And by their false reports they blinded the eyes of the people , causing them stil to imbrace & continue in Error , and so hardned their hearts against him , that they would not hearken unto nor beleeve those precious Gospel-truths which he maintained ; but as their wicked practices were discerned by all ( that with humble hearts received the truth in the love thereof that they might be saved ) so I am confident the Lord Jehovah will bring forth my righteousness as the light , and my judgement as the noone day , Psal . 37. 6. And will cause mine adversaries to be clothed with shame and to cover themselves with their own confusion as with a mantle , Psal . 109. 29. that all the World may see and know your Charg hath no truth in it , but is an Independent plot , invented and spread abroad to defame me and cause the people to suspect , slight and disregard those sound Scripture truths I hold forth and constantly maintain . Thus far I have answered your false accusations : And in the presence of God I solemnly protest this is a true answer . Brother , I would here gladly dismisse the Reader , for willingly I over look many of your invectives without mentioning of them ; But I find two or three passages more to which you engage me to speak , for the clearing the truth of what I have written ( in my Postscript Page 68. ) concerning Independents ; as also to answer a complaint you have made against me : And lastly to resolve two quaeries which you have propounded unto me , and in these I shall endeavour fully to satisfie you and all men . But first , as a Phisitian and a faithfull Friend , avoyding all flattery ; I cannot but truly relate unto you the dangerous condition I find you in ; for I assure you , I feel your pulse beates very high , and I see you have a vein puft up with windy matter , and I perceive you are swoln with pernicious and corrupt humors , and that Choler exceedingly abounds in you , insomuch as you breath forth ●●rong revilings and defamings against those that never wronged you , and make loud exclamations as if I were a man of no Religion , Piety , Wit , or Learning , because I have ( as for truths sake I was induty bound ) truly stated the Question of difference between the Presbyterians and Independents , and made it appear that INDEPENDENCY is not GODS ORDINANCE , nor grounded on the holy Scriptures : and that the practice of Independents and the way they plead for , will prove destructive to Church and State. Now as I am grieved to see it , so I wonder at the suddain distemper and great heat you are fallen into , which makes you talk so much , and that against me by name , more then against others ; wherereas before I writ , and since , many have ( and one more especially ) in part discovered the sinfull practices of Independents , the evill and unwarrantablenesse of their new way ; And how ever you are generally blamed for rushing out upon the Theatre to oppose him by name , it being a work in the judgement of all wise men fitter for any other man to have undertaken then your selfe , because of some more then ordinary tye of friendship between you and him ; yet you have bridled up your fury against his person , although you say in your Appendix he ranks your words under the head of his first Section , containing divers , seditious , scandalous , libellous passages against the Authority and Jurisdiction of Parliaments , Synods and temporall Magistrates in generall , &c. Now here is exceeding great wrong done unto you , if your words are not of such a nature ; and might you be the sole Judge , I am perswaded you would pronounce them not guilty ; notwithstanding , you do not revile , vilifie , and falsly accuse the Author thereof ; But on me you have let loose your fury and have fallen upon me so passionately who was once a Fellow Sufferer with you , that it hath sadded the spirits , grieved the hearts , and given great offence unto all that are truly godly , who walk in that old way and the known paths of holinesse , which Gods word doth plainly direct and lead them into , and contrarywise you have opened the mouthes of the wicked and given cause of rejoycing to such as are without , by your bitter expressions and false accusations brought against me one of your Quondam Fellow Sufferers . But Pag. 26. you please to say , that I have much exaggerated vilifications upon the Independents : And notorious is that I say in my Postscript Pag , 68. as by experience I know not any Indep●●dent in England , , two onely excepted , , that do not as maliciously and implacably hate the the Presbyterians as the mortallest enemies they have in the world , &c. To this Brother I answer , I vilifie none , I have spoken the truth ; but because I see you take such great exceptions at these words , I shall prove the truth of them from your own Tenents , or make it appear you are not the only Saints ; for I have said nothing there , but what the professed judgment of those Independents I know ( I still keep within the bounds of my own knowledg ) and their practise inciteth me to beleeve : And if there be any Independents that differ from their judgement and practice , I know them not , ( two only excepted , as I said before ) : But for those Independents who being in the company of such as are truly godly , yet because they are Presbyterians , refused in private to pray or joyn in prayer with them ; and for such who hold and do pronounce all that walk not in their way to be enemies of Jesus Christ , &c. These Independents by their opinions and practices do sufficiently prove the truth of what I said in the forecited words ; and therefore you , with all that hold such an opinion , must disclaime that Independent principle , if you denie the veritie of them ; otherwise you will declare to the whole world that you are not so zealous for Gods glorie nor love not the Lord so sincerely , as his faithfull servants have formerly done ; and withall you will manifest to all men that you are more studious to preserve your own honours and reputation then the glory of God. For whereas you ( with most of the Independents that I know ) doe hold and maintaine ( in your bookes intituled Vindication , and Vindiciae veritatis ) That the Presbyterians are enemies to Christs Kingly office , that instead of finding Christ set upon his Throne in their Congregations , you find there no more but an Image , such as Michael had made up instead of King David , 1 Sam , 19. or as those that in mockery , made of Christ a Pageant-King , striping him , and putting on him a scarlet Robe , and on his head a Crowne of Thornes , and in his hand a Reed , saluting him with , Haile King of the Jewes , with which title over his head they crucified him . That the Presbyterians neither professe , nor confesse Christ , but say with the wicked Iewes , we will not have this man to raigne over us , Luke 19. 14. That they are at the best but Converts in part , &c. which is to say , they are in King Agripas condition , but almost Christians , Act. 26. 28. or like Simon Magus still in the gall of bitternesse , and bond of iniquity . And if this great charge against the Presbyterians be true , which you so confidently affirme in your books , truly all the Presbyterians are in a more cursed condition then the wicked Iewes were ; for why ? they know , and say they doe beleeve , that Iesus Christ is God and man , the only begotten of the father , full of grace and truth , Iohn 1. 14. who was made of the seed of David according to the flesh , and declared to bee the Sonne of God , with power , according to the spirit of holinesse by the resurrection from the dead , Rom. 1. 3. 4. The Redeemer of his Elect , and chosen ones , Ephes . 1. 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8. The Saviour of all that beleeve in him , Ioh. 3. 15 , 16. The blessed , and onely Potentate , the King of Kings , and Lord of Lords , 1 Tim. 6. 15. Now the Presbyterians knowing and professing that they doe beleeve these Gospel truths ( which the Iewes did not know , nor would not beleeve ) if they notwithstanding are enemies to Iesus Christ , and refuse to set Christ upon his Throne , but in mockery set up Christ as a Pageant King in their Congregations , and doe as those who saluting him with Haile King , &c. yet reiect him , saying , wee will not have this man to raigne over us . Then the Presbyterians sinne in the height of aggravation , sinning against their owne knowledge , and professed beliefe ; and all such , cannot but hate Iesus Christ , and are haters of God ; for the Lord Iesus Christ hath said , Hee that hateth mee , hateth the Father also , ( Ioh. 15. 23. ) So that consequently , you make them the children of the Devill . For if God were their Father , they would be so farre from being enemies , that they would love the Lord Iesus Christ , ( the Sonne of God ; ) this the Lord and Prince of life hath declared , and He makes it his Argument to convince the unbelieving Jewes , that God was not their Father , saying , If God were your Father , yee would loue mee , for I proceeded forth , and came from God ; neither came I of my selfe , but hee sent me . If the Presbyterians therefore are enemies to Christs Kingly office , and make a m●●ke . King of him who proceeded forth and came from God , and was sent by him , as you have once and again published in print , then it must needs be granted they are not the children of God , but the cursed children of the Devil ( Anathema maranatha ) because they love not the Lord Iesus Christ . And from what hath bin said , this is further necessarily implyed , that either you , with all that are of your judgement herein , have falsely accused the Presbyterians ( as indeed you have ) to be enemies to Christs Kingly office ; otherwise , if you , and they are a holy people , and such as doe advance Christ upon his Throne , then ( I say ) I am perswaded the Independents doe hate the Presbyterians ; yea , it were an hainous offence in them to love such whom they hold and judge to be enemies to Christ , and so haters and enemies to God ; for to love any that hate the Lord , is a wrath provoking sinne ; this the Prophet sheweth plainely , when reproving King Iehosaphat , hee said unto him , shouldst thon helpe the ungodly , and love them that hate the Lord ? therefore is wrath upon thee from the Lord , 2 Chron. 19 , 2. wee find it in sacred Writ , that Mordecai a holy man , was so farre from loving any of Gods enemies , that notwithstanding all the Kings servants that were in the Kings gate bowed , and reverenced Haman , for the King had so commanded concerning him ; yet Mordecai bowed not , nor did him reverence , Esth . 3. 2 , 3. I suppose none will give way to such an uncharitable thought , as to thinke , that Mordecai would run the hazard of his owne ruine , and the destruction of all the people of the Iewes , for want of giving an outward Complement , for that had beene but pride in him so rebelliously to transgresse the Kings Commandement : But he knew Haman to be an Agagite , of the stock and raze of the Amalecks , who were enemies to God , of whom the Lord had said , that hee would utterly put out the remembrance of Amaleck from under heaven : And had sworne that hee would have warre with Amaleck from generation to generation ; as hee will with all that are his enemies , Exod. 17. 14. 16. and withall hee well remembred how much the Lord was displeased with King Saul , for sparing and honouring Agag the King of the Amalekites , in so much that hee rent the Kingdome from him for it , and gave it to David , and only for favouring his enemies , and not destroying him according to Gods command : therefore Mordecai one of Gods peculiar people , and his faithfull servant , looking on Haman , as hee was an enemy to God , hated him , and would not so much as bow , nor doe outward civill reverence unto him : Indeed maliciously , and implacably , to hate any , is a sinne that cryeth loud in the eares of God , and of this crying sinne , too too many Independents are deeply guilty , as is very evident , by their raising up false reports , to defame those who indeavour to walke in the wayes of Gods Commandements without hypocrisie ; but to hate Gods enemies is no sinne , for it is the fruit of true grace , and an evidence of sincerity , David a man according to Gods own● heart , publisheth this as a manifestation of his integrity , that hee hated Gods enemies , appealing unto God , saying , Doe not I hate them , O Lord , that hate thee ▪ and am I not grieved with those that rise up against thee ? J hate them with perfect hatred : I count them mine enemies , Psal . 139. 21 ▪ 22. had not David thus hated Gods enemies , hee could never have cleared his faithfulnesse to God : And this is undeniable ▪ that those who David hated with perfect hatred , were not , nor could not be greater enemies to God , then you have accused the Presbyterians to be , for you proclame them enemies to the Sonne of God , the Lord Jesus Christ , whom God hath anoynted to be the King , Priest , and Prophet of his Church , Isa . 61. 1. Psal . 45. 7. Psal . 2. 6. Dan. 7. 14. Revel . 17. 14. Psal . 110. 4. Heb. 7. 27. Deut. 18. 18. Act. 3. 23. Now whosoever are enemies to Christs Kingly office , and will not have him to raigne over them , they are open enemies to God , resisters of his will , and opposers of his infinite wisedome , for he hath given all power unto the Sonne , Matth. 28. 18. and all such his enemies hee will command to be brought and slaine before him , Luke 19. 27. O Brother , either give glory to God , and confesse you have highly offended in maintaining such an uncharitable opinion , whereby you condemne all godly , holy , selfe-denying Christians , that walke not in your way ▪ yea all the Reformed Churches in Europe ; or if you , with other Independents will still persevere in charging the Presbyterians , to be enemies to Christs Kingly office , and if you absolutely beleeve they are such , then acknowledge , that those Independents hate the Presbyterians , if not , it may justly be suspected such Independents are not sincere to God , nor the onely Saints , because they doe not like holy David , manifest their integrity ; for the Saints shew their sincerity in loving God , with all their hearts , with all their soules , and with all their might , which Love cannot be set forth more clearely then by their labouring so to walk● , that their whole Lives and Conversations may bee squared according to Gods Royall will , and the example of his holy Saints and servants ; And this is the will of God , that all men should honour the Son , even as they honour the Father : Hee that honoureth not the Son , honoureth not the Father which hath sent him , Ioh. 5. 23. but the Independents doe not honour the Son , as the Saints of old have honoured the Father , unlesse they account all the enemies of Jesus Christ their enemies , and hate them with a perfect hatred . Therefore , upon due deliberation the whole universe will conclude this truth , and give in their verdict , that either you and other Independents are too rash and ridgid in censuring ; for it is notorious what you and they hold , teach , and write , concerning the Presbyterians , viz. that they are enemies to the Kingly office of Iesus Christ , and make but a mocke King of him , &c. Or if the Presbyterians be indeed guiltie of the like enmitie against the Lord Christ , as the wicked Jewes were , who crucified him , as you accuse them , then the Independents doe hate the Presbyterians more then they doe , or may their mortallest enemies , because they pronounce these to be enemies to the Sonne of God , his beloved Son , in whom he is well pleased ; otherwise if the Independents know the Presbyterians to be so desperately wicked , as you have said , and doe not hate them , then this verdict will bee given in , that they are not the only Saints , and godly party as they speake of themselves , for the Saints hate all the knowne enemies of God , and of his Sonne the Lord Iesus Christ . So then , that which I briefly gave but a touch of in my Post-script , being thus evidently proved from your owne tenents , both by Scripture and reason , none who doe not make it their delight to cavill , and their worke to except against every truth that is spoken , can considering the grounds , question the verity of what I there said . I come now to answer your complaint , and Queries , made and laid downe in your booke , pag. 27. where for the space of foure or five lines , you breake off your discourse with mee , and to insinuate into the Reader complaine of me saying , Hee commends the Kings Cavaliers for brave Gentlemen ; and hee found more favour from them ( which he doth ever acknowledge for a singular courtesie ) then ever hee found from Protestant Goalers . Thus having complained of my gratitude , which in all other is accounted a commendable vertue ; you begin to parle with me againe , and strictly inquire what was the cause that moved the Popish Cavaliers to shew mee favour , and then you raise Questions , viz. was it that you discovered unto them some of that bitternesse of spirit against the Independents , or some courtly compliance with Papists , preferring them before Independents or Protestants , that made those Popish Cavaliers so much to applaud you ? Thus you . Brother for your complaint and quaeries I entreat you be not offended that I say , had you not been when you framed them , so far transported with causlesse passion , as it left no place for brotherlo love , truth ▪ well grounded reason or your own experience to dictate unto you , certainly you would never have thus complained nor propounded them ▪ therefore I shall repeat my own words , and whosoever reads them will soon discern how unworthily you deal with me , what a causlesse abusive complaint have you made , and how little ground or colour you have for the propounding such quaeries , I having there given a reason why the Popish Cavaliers shewed me favour sufficient to satisfie any , that will not maliciously pretend they are unsatisfied ? For in the fourth page of my Defence I speaking of the clamorous tongues of Independents , and how that after they understood I differed in opinion from them ( before they had seen my books ) they railed against me , raised up false reports and calumniated me , as the greatest Incendiary in the Kingdome ; in all which they most shamefully ( as dayly still they do ) abused me ; thereunto I replyed in these words , I have been freed from that reproach by both Houses of Parliament who adjudged all my sufferings unjust , as against the Law and Liberty of the Subject . And if it were a thing that could be any way usefull unto me . I could prove by many of the brave Gentlemen in the Kings Army , who in great Assemblies did acknowledge , when I was a Prisoner amongst them , that I had great injury done me . Yea , the Papists themselves have often averred it , that never any Subject suffered more unjustly then I did , in that I was cast into Prison and fined , for maintaining the Prerogative Royall of the King against the Pope ; and for defending that Religion which was established by the Laws of the Land : And further added , that had any Catholique writ as well in defence of their Religion , as I did for the maintenance of the Protestant Profession , he should have been so far from suffering for it , as they would not only greatly have honoured him , but also highly have rewarded him for his endeavour ; and this that I now write I am able to prove by a cloud of witnesses : and my unjust suffering in their opinion , made me find more favour amongst all the Governours that were Papists ( which I do ever acknowledge for a singular courtesie from them ) then ever I found from Protestant Goalers . And therefore whereas the Independents do accuse me for the greatest Incendiary of the Kingdome , all men may see they speak as untruly , so most maliciously , &c. Now these are my words : And herein is observable : First , that as I say I have been cleared by both Houses of Parliament , from being an Incendiary , so I mention not , commend , or speak of the Cavaliers , for their undertakings ; I onely say , many of the brave Gentlemen in the Kings Army have also cleared me from that aspersion being convinced that my sufferings were most unjust . Secondly that I say many of the brave Gentlemen ; I speak not of all the Cavaliers in the Kings Army ; but you silencing my words and omitting to shew the cause which induced me there to speak of them , make your complaint in Generall saying , He commends the Kings Cavaliers for brave Gentlemen . Thirdly , in my forecited words I plainly set down the reason which moved the Popish Cavaiiers to shew me favour , namely , because they were fully perswaded that I ( having writ so much in defence of the Protestan● Religion , which was here established ) had suffered most unjustly , and contrary to the Laws of this Kingdome , for my own part , I look to a higher hand in it , but this was the reason that moved them to demean themselvs courteously towards me ) . Now , who so deafe as they that will not hear , and who so blind as they that will not see ? for whosoever will hear , see , and read what I have written , and then speak truly , they cannot but say , that were you not resolved for the venting of your selfe to pretend ignorance , the reason there laid down might have informed and satisfied you , and so have stopt the mouth of your causlesse Quaeries ; You having as little reason to question and examine me upon such interrogatories , as you have for complaining of me for commending the Kings Cavaliers , ( and for the false Calumnies , which throughout your book you have loaded me withall ) but by these you discover your spirit and what you aime at , to say no more : Therefore I will give a more full Answer to them , and first to your complaint , I say , That to affirm there are many of the Kings Cavaliers brave Gentlemen is a truth ; and all ingenuous men , that have been amongst them will confesse , they have met with many of whom it may be said it is ten thousand thousand pities , that such brave Gentlemen should be so seduced and misled , as to appear in so bad a cause ; and further for my selfe , know , I am not ashamed nor afraid to confesse , that Popish Cavaliers did use me courteously ; and that I might not be ungratefull to God nor man , I then did , now do , and ever shall acknowledge , that I found more favour from some of them ( which I esteem a singular courtesie ) then ever I found from Protestant Gaolers . Therefore as to the glo●y of ●od I there made mention of it , so I shall here set down the particulars and inlarge my selfe to show forth Gods goodnesse unto me therein . For by his gracious assistance I will never cease to declare how that after I had been kept in the dungeon seven days and nights in York Castle , and for a year and a halfe underwent great inhumanity , was cruelly used , uncivilly and most unsufferably abused by a professed Protestant Goaler there , a length , by the Command of the Earl of Newcastle ( on purpose , if possible , to augment my miseries ) I was all on a sodain removed from York Goale to Hemsley Castle , in which he intended evill towards me , but the Lord turned it to good and gave me favour in the eyes of a profist Papist ( Colonell Irington by name ) the Governour of that Castle , who , with all in his family , used me and my servant very courteously , he supplyed me with necessaries ( and that freely ) and demeaned himselfe unto me in every respect as a Gentleman while I remained his Prisoner , which was but one Moneth ; for when my adversaries heard thereof , perceiving their designe was frustrate , they forthwith removed me to Knaseb●ough Castle , the Governour and ( his Deputy ) the Captain thereof being profest Protestants ; where , although in some things , I was not so inhumanelyly abused as in York Goal , yet there I was kept close Prisoner again , and I assure you , I found no such courteous usage as I received from the other Gentleman . Now for my part I am so far from being conscious to my selfe that I have done evill in making mention hereof ( as by your complaint you would infer ) that I then did , and still do hold my selfe bound in conscience upon all occasions to speak of the merci●s of my God unto me , and to make manifest the mighty power of the Lord JEHOVAH , that so for time to come , if any who fear his name , should be invironed about with enemies , troubled on every side and cast into the depth of miseries ( in mans imagination ) as I have been ; yet by the many experiences which I have had of Gods fatherly mercies ( the heavenly , soul-ravishing , and spirit-reviving comforts wherewith the Lord hath strengthned and supported me in my greatest calamitie ) they may be incouraged to maintain their integritie , and be confident of his never failing goodnesse , mercies and loving kindnesses unto them . For though in my remove , I could expect nothing but increase of miserie , to the outward man , yet to the glorie of God I speak it , I found at that very instant ( as at other times ) the Lord mightily to uphold my spirit , filling me with such inward comforts , full assurance of supporting mercies , and that his grace was sufficient for me , and his strength would be made perfect in weaknesse ; that in the strength of my God I went willingly and chearfully not fearing what man could do unto me . And when I was delivered to Colonell Irington , to whom the foresaid Earl had sent me ; He in my hearing read the warrant which he had received from him , wherein he was straitly commanded to keep me close Prisoner , and not to suffer any to see or speak with me ; but God counter-manded this command , and moved the Colonels heart to such compassion , that he carried himselfe verie nobly and lovingly towards me , & if any desired it , he permitted them to have accesse unto me , and gave me liberty to take the Aire , which was a sweet refreshing unto me , being not thorowly recovered out of a long and dangerous sicknesse , whose favors and courtesies I stand bound in the bonds of thankfulnesse and civilitie ever to predicate , whereby all men may take occasion to blesse and praise Gods name with me , and I may manifest my gratitude to him whom the Lord made an instrument of good unto me , and also that those who have and do exercise crueltie and insult over Prisoners , may be convinced of their sinfull doings , and know , that humanity and courtesie to all , but more especially to any in distresse , is not onely highly pleasing to God , but the honour of a man to the worlds duration . This is a true Answer to your complaint , wherein I doubt not but I have given satisfaction to all sober-minded Christians ( yea to all that have but common humanitie and understanding ) to whom to their great griefe it doth apparently appear , that since you walked in your new way , you have accustomed your selfe to speak of men that differ from your opinions in a blasting and detracting language , by which you endeavour to make the vertues that such men are clothed withall , seem to the ignorant , to be the garments of vice , and to render them odious , if they will not turn Independents and Sectaries . I am now come to your quae ies , and here I cannot but confesse , I stand astonished to see the humour you are fallen into , the libertie you take to calumniate , the strange devices you have to delude withal & the aspersing discourse that proceedeth from you O Brother , Brother , I beseech you recollect your self , look back & seriously consider whither your anger leads you , and how passion hath darkned your Judgement and quenched that fire of brotherly love , whose flames would have consumed all your evill thoughts , for love thinks no evil ; surely then you had not the spirit of brotherly love when you propounded those quaeries , for they are wholly made up with carnall reasonings and evill surmises , being altogether as voide of charitie as of Christian experience : and truly I could wish I might passe them over in silence , but your publishing and doubling them , as if they were not to be gainsaid , inforc me ( though unwillingly ) to replie thereunto , lest by my silence many be deceived with your false glosses , my sinceritie to the truth suspected ( by such as know me not ) and God be robbed of his due praise and glory ; therefore upon these considerations I have undertaken the work , and to undeceive the world to your first quaerie , which is : Whether I discovered unto the Cavaliers some of that bitternesse of spirit against the Independents . I answer , this is a cunning deceiveable question , whereby you delude poore ignorant , harmelesse people , baring them in hand , as if there were a vast difference and great disagreement between the Cavaliers and Independents , which is quite contrary ; for there is a direct harmonie betweene the Independents and Cavaliers of all sorts , whether malignant , or popish Cavaliers , and the truth is , to speake against Independents to Cavaliers , may purchase displeasure to any man sooner then gaine him favour ; for I know , and many can testifie the same , that the Cavaliers doe generally applaud the Independents ; and indeed they have reason so to doe ; for they drive on the Cavaliers great designe , with as much earnestnesse as themselves , yet they have done it with farre more Iesuiticall policie , doing it under the pretence of holinesse , and so have beene lesse discerned by many in their destructive practises . But their cunning undermining both Church and State , doth now daily more and more , very manifestly appeare , and is discerned , and bewayled of all , who have not the eye of reason blinded with selfe-ends , and by-respects , and for preferments sake will connive at , and side with any party : But who ever prudentially , conscienciously , and judiciously examine , and take a view of their proceedings , they plainely see and confesse , that the Independents have exceedingly laboured to set forward , and daily doe indeavour , leaving no wayes unattempted to effect that thing , which was and is the Cavaliers grand designe , for it is well knowne , that the Cavaliers did make it their great , and one of their chiefest designes to have Bishops , and all the Prelaticall faction continued , that so Popery , though it were not by a Law set up , and established in this Kingdome , yet it might be countenanced , and privately authorized by them , which is all one with the toleration in effect , that the Independents doe so plead , seeke after and contend for , calling it Liberty of Conscience : Thus while they strive to get an unlimited , which is an irreligious and unlawfull Liber●y , they set forward the Cavaliers designe to the full , and act for them with all their power , and should the Independents obtaine their desire herein , the greatest part of the Cavaliers worke would be done to their hand ; for then Cavaliers , Papists , Prelates , Malignants , Turkes , Iewes and Heathens , would all pretend , that they beleeve , serve , and worship God , according to the Light they have received , and as they are perswaded in their Consciences is agreeable to Gods Word , and Will ( and Conscience is a tender thing , and ought not to be forced ) ; so that by the same rule in equity , a toleration and Liberty of Conscience cannot be denyed to any of them , if once granted to the Independents , and Sectaries of our times , who for the greatest part of them are as erroneous , if not worse , in their Doctrine as the Papists and Prelates ; many of them as blasphemous as the Turkes and Iewes , and live as without God in the world ; and the malignant party knowing this very well , doe therefore all of them , Cavaliers , Papists , and the profanest Malignants in the Kingdome , looke upon the Independents , and speak of them usefull as their friends , and unanimously agree upon all occasions to withstand the Presbyterian government , that way being too strict and holy for any of them , yea the Independents and they doe all joyne together as one man , with one voyce pleading and crying out for a toleration , liberty of conscience , or an indulgence without any limitation , that so every man may beleeve and serve God as it seemes good in his owne eyes , under the name of tendernesse of conscience . Now the Independents practices , and the way they plead for , being thus knowne to be very pleasing , and acceptable to the Cavaliers , whether Popish or otherwise , then surely had I discovered any bitternesse of spirit against Jndependents , it might have exasperated their spirits against mee , it could never have extracted pitie or favour , nor have drawne any applause from them ; therefore it is cleare , that was not the cause : But know the onely cause which moved some of the Cavaliers ( after J had for the further tryall of my patience , and the manifestation of my faithfulnesse , for a long time indured strict and close imprisonment in the Goale of Yorke ) to shew me favour , was the gracious working , and over-ruling power of God , vvho inclined their hearts to deale kindly vvith me his faithfull servant . Thus have I given you a true ansvver to your first Querie , I come now to the second , which you propound in these words . Or was it some Courtly Compliance with Papists , preferring them before Independents or Protestants , that made those Popish Cavaliers so much to applaud you ? To which I answer ▪ that part of this last Querie , is the same with the former ; for here you speake as if to slight the Independents , were a sure way to obtaine favour and applause from Popish Cavaliers ; truly you flatter your selfe if you thinke your subtill dealing herein is not seene , when as it is so notoriously known , that any man who speaks against Independents may be scorned , but never applauded by Popish , or any that are Cavaliers ; for they applaud the Independents , whom they hold to be more subtill , and powerfull to effect the thing they chiefly ayms at , and desire then themselves ; and it is well knowne , and can be proved that they will run and goe to doe any Malignant a favour , yea , they will joyne with the wickedest Cavaliers against a Presbyterian to doe him a mischiefe . But having cleared this truth in my Reply to your first Querie , I hasten to the other part of this , where you start the Question , Whether the favour I received were not by my courtly compliance with Papists , preferring them before Protestants , &c. To which I answer , that my constant perseverance in holding forth the true Protestant Religion where ever I lived , at home and beyond the seas , is sufficiently knowne to all the godly , faithfull , orthodox Christians , that inhabited in any of those parts where I have dwelt , and so farre have I ever beene from any courtly complying with Papists , or preferring them before Protestants , as some in England at this day can testifie , that when I lived in forraine nations , my zeale was so great for the Protestant Religion , that with no little hazard I have maintained it ; for all the while I travailed abroad , and continued in Popish Countries , which was many yeares , it fared with mee as with the Apostle Paul , while hee waited at Athens , Act. 17. 16 , 17. my spirit was stirred in me when I saw the Cities and all the Countries wholly given to Idolatry ; therefore carrying my life in my hand I daily disputed with Papists , and those they accounted the devout persons , Priests and Iesuits against Popery , maintaining the Protestant Religion ; insomuch , as it was only the goodnesse of my God that kept me safe , giving them no power to hurt mee ; further J answer you , the Bookes that I have written against Popery , in Latine , and in English , are yet extant , and they doe witnesse and will to future generations , that the Author of them disputed against , and disclaimed Popery , and earnestly contented for the faith which was once delivered unto the Saints , Iud. vers . 3. yea , the many disputations I have held with Priests , Jesuits , and people popishly affected in England , not onely while I injoyed my liberty , but also when by the Prelaticall popish party J was for maintaining the true Protestant Religion , and standing for the peace and welfare of my countrey cast into severall prisons , viz. in the Gate-house at Westminster , in the Castle of Launceston in Cornewall , in the Castle , in the Isle of Sylly , in the Goale of Leicester , in the Goale in the Citie of Yorke , in Hemsley-Castle , in Yorke-shire ; Lastly in Knasebrough-Castle in Yorke-shire . Yet through Gods supporting grace , in none of all these prisons , could the cruelty , pride and fury of men , which in Yorke and Sylly was my daily portion , either make me forget my integrity , or daunt mee in the least ; for their rage and power I feared not , neither did I ever forbeare to justifie godly Protestants , nor decline any opportunity to dispute with Papists , but improved it to the uttermost to shew the great idolatry , and vanity of their Religion , as many who were prisoners with mee , in some of the fore-named places can testifie : And I am confident , that the Popish Cavaliers , with whom I have beene a prisoner , and others of them , that have discoursed and reasoned with me in matters of Religion , will give this testimony , that they ever found me constant to my principles , unmoveable in the Protestant Religion , and as farre from complying with Papists , or preferring them before Protestants , what ever I suffered or under-went , as light is from darkenesse in its greatest brightnesse . Moreover Brother , I would not that you should be ignorant how that I have beene as frequent in disputations , writ as much in confutation , and at all times , and in all companies have appeared as forward and earnest against Papists , and have ventured my life to maintaine the Protestant Religion , as freely as any Independent , I know in England , and that in the worst of times ; yea , when those who are now the chiefe independent Rabbies , to avoyd suffering for truth , would not stand to appeare in her behalfe , but went out of the Kingdome , and like the parents of the man that was borne blind , Joh. 9. 21. Left her to speake for her selfe , then J helped to maintaine truths cause , and was not afraid nor ashamed to suffer in so good a quarrell , but resisted her opposers , Papists , Prelates , Arminians and Formalists in their erroneous Doctrines , and Popish practises even unto blood . I am become a foole in glorying , you have compelled me , 2 Cor. 12. 11. for so many reproaches which you have cast upon me , and such groundlesse Queries could never have proceeded from any that had not beene guided should I say by a traducing spirit , truly that word would come short fully to explaine and set forth the sinfull subtilty of them ; therefore I will not undertake to set down what spirit it was , and what name it will beare ; I shall onely shew what it was not , and leave it to such as are godly , wife , and experienced Christians , to spell out the name thereof : Now it is very evident that it was not the spirit of brotherly love ; that would have silenced yea annihilated such thoughts in the first conception ; for as brotherly love thinks no evill , much lesse dares it devise , and publish falshood ; yet more evill , and greater falshood ; then you have not only thought ( as it plainely appeares ) but published against me , and that deliberately , none could ever have imagined ; for you render me a scandalous Walker ( as vile as vile can be ) and here you question whether I have not complyed with Papists , and Popish Cavaliers , and preferred them before Protestants . Thus with your windie Independent policie you blast my good name , raise doubts , cloud my sincerity , darken and overshadow my faithfull constant perseverance in the truth and wayes of God to make me be thought a man infamous and of no Religion : but such dealings are absolutely contrary to brotherly love ; therefore it is very clear to the understanding of all , that you were not guided by that spirit . And as your quaeries were made without brotherly love , so they seem to be altogether voyd of Christian experience , being wholly filled with evill surmises , scrued up to their height by the hand of carnall , reason , and uttered by the tongue of sinfull suspicion . For I beseech you consider how it comes to passe , that you who have been a Prisoner , one of my Quondam Fellow Sufferers , when you heare , that I being a Prisoner ( under the command and power of Popish Cavaliers ) was courteously used by a profest Papist , should have such thoughts arise in your heart , and set them forth in Print , to inquire whether the favor I received from them were not obtained by my courtly complying with Papists , preferring them before Protestants . Brother , have you had such experience of Gods power and gracious goodnesse in giving you favor two years together in the eyes of some to whom you were committed Prisoner , and do you now think it so strange as you cannot search out the reason of it when God hath wrought the same thing for me , ( one Moneth ) but suspect that the favor I received was purchased by wronging my conscience ? Surely when you writ these quaeries you had forgot the loving kindnesses of our God shewed to you in your imprisonment , and how notwithstanding for the first halfe year , the Governour of Garnsey kept you close Prisoner in very strict durance ( in some things exceeding the rigor of his Warrant ) ; Yet at last God moving his heart to more humanitie , he afterwards gave you what liberty the Castle did afford , suffered you not to want any accommodation that he could possiblie helpe you unto , and used you courteously all the remaining time of your banishment . Had you called these things to mind ( me thinks ) the remembrance of Gods mercies unto your selfe would have fully satisfied you in this particular , and silenced your carnall reasonings , knowing Gods arme is not shortned nor his power lessened , He is the same God yesterday , to day , and for ever ; therefore ( I say ) surely you had forgot his loving kindnesses to you , or else you wilfully stopped the mouth of your experiences and would not permit them to speak for me , whom you so seek to blot with false reports , ignominie , and disgracefull language , that even the goodnesse of God manifestest towards me , you to obscure with a vail of evill surmises ; But that the name of God may be ever magnified , the world undeceived , and you receive a satisfactory answer unto your quaeries , know , it was not any courtly compliance with Papists which procured me favor ; I did no such thing ; let God be true , and every man a lyar ; for to him all praise is due , who in his Word hath said , When a mans ways please the Lord he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him , Prov. 16. 7. This did my God , when I was committed close Prisoner to a Papist , make good to me his servant ( who though in much weaknesse , do make it the ultimate end of all my endeavors to please the Lord ) : Now this was the Lords doing , and let it not seem marvellous in your eyes , That that God , who called Cyrus by name , made him a friend to the people of God , though he knew not God , Isaiah 45. 4. Who sent his Angel and shut the lyons mouthes that they could not hurt his servant Daniel . Daniel 6. 22. And delivered the three children out of the fiery furnace Daniel 3. 26,27 , 28. should when he pleased to make his power known , and prevent the evill intentions of men , cause Popish Cavaliers to shew me favor and to use me courteously : Is any thing too hard for the Lord to do ? No surely ! For this and greater things then this , my God hath done for me ; Therefore the experiences I have had of his goodnesse , free grace , rich mercies , and never failing loving kindnesses , I for ever will extoll , predicate , declare , and speak of , that men may know it is not in vain to serve and patiently wait upon the Lord our God , nor to relie on him , in the time of their distresse , when they seem to be deprived of all outward comforts and exposed to the greatest miseries . Thus I have labored to satisfie your doubts truly , and faithfully to answer your quaeries . The Lord convince you of your error , and of the reail truth of all I have herein said , and forgive your unbrotherly practices and bitter invectives against me , one of your Quondam Follow Sufferers . Now because my brother Burton hath so deeply censured me for my Postscript , and because all those of his fraternity have upon all occasions so often reviled me for it , though none but himself ever indeavored to disprove the least title of it , which they can never do , I intend within these few daies to send it out again into the world something inlarged touching their New Lights , undertaking before all men to make good whatsoever is contained in it , and much more concerning their practices . Imprimatur , Ja. Cranford . FINIS