Flagellum flagelli: or Doctor Bastwicks quarters beaten up in two or three Pomeridian exercises, by way of animadversion upon his first booke, intituled, Independency not Gods ordinance. / By J.S. M.A. Published by authoritie. Sadler, John, 1615-1674. This text is an enriched version of the TCP digital transcription A92974 of text R200240 in the English Short Title Catalog (Thomason E298_25). Textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. The text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with MorphAdorner. The annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). Textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. This text has not been fully proofread Approx. 54 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 13 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. EarlyPrint Project Evanston,IL, Notre Dame, IN, St. Louis, MO 2017 A92974 Wing S276 Thomason E298_25 ESTC R200240 99861046 99861046 113173 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A92974) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 113173) Images scanned from microfilm: (Thomason Tracts ; 49:E298[25]) Flagellum flagelli: or Doctor Bastwicks quarters beaten up in two or three Pomeridian exercises, by way of animadversion upon his first booke, intituled, Independency not Gods ordinance. / By J.S. M.A. Published by authoritie. Sadler, John, 1615-1674. [6], 19, [1] p. Printed by Matthew Simmons, dwelling in Aldersgate-streete., London, : 1645. J.S. = John Sadler. The first leaf is blank. A reply to: Bastwick, John. Independency not Gods ordinance. Annotation on Thomason copy: after J.S.: "adler"; "Septem: 1st". Reproduction of the original in the British Library. eng Bastwick, John, 1593-1654. -- Independency not Gods ordinance -- Early works to 1800. Presbyterianism -- Early works to 1800. Chruch polity -- Early works to 1800. A92974 R200240 (Thomason E298_25). civilwar no Flagellum flagelli: or Doctor Bastwicks quarters beaten up in two or three Pomeridian exercises,: by way of animadversion upon his first bo Sadler, John 1645 9391 4 35 0 0 0 0 42 D The rate of 42 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the D category of texts with between 35 and 100 defects per 10,000 words. 2007-02 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2007-02 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2007-04 Jonathan Blaney Sampled and proofread 2007-04 Jonathan Blaney Text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion Flagellum Flagelli : OR Doctor BASTWICKS Quarters Beaten up in two or three POMERIDIAN EXERCISES , by way of ANIMADVERSION upon his first Booke , intituled , Independency not Gods Ordinance . By J. S. M. A. Published by Authoritie . LONDON , Printed by Matthew Simmons , dwelling in Aldersgate-streete . 1645. To Doctor Bastwick . SIR ; WHen I first tooke your book in hand , it was to read , not to write , but finding it easie , and advantage enough , I fell on : I had thought to have scand the particulars as I began , but the course I was in at the Wells for my health forbad me , and I presume I should have been no otherwise advised by your selfe , whose judgement in such matters might be worthy of more account . I therefore quarterd your Book , and tooke hold of the pillars of your discourse , which if I have shaken , how can your building stand ? If some few hands more would doe but as much as this , to what parts ( or passages rather ) are omitted , you might perhaps come to know all the faults of your book in time , which is the worst wish of The truths friend and yours , J. S. Flagellum Flagelli : OR , Dr. Bastwicks quarters beaten up , &c. PAge 1. It hath ever been observed , that diversity of judgement and opinion bath made a difference in affection . Answ . But you prove not that to be other then the fruit of Corruption ; therefore throw the stone at Corruption , Solomon sayes , only through pride ( therefore not through difference ) comes Contention . There is an Antipathy between the Hound and the Hare , but was it so from the beginning ? Or , must one of them be destroyed ? 2. We see many a husband and wife , neighbour and neighbour , friend and friend of severall judgements , that yet live very amicably and friendly together , therefore the observation is not universally true : And if a few do , and may do so , all might , had they the same grace , and were there the like mortification of pride . And as for your instance , of the Disciples animosity against the Samaritans , whereby this grave Sentence is exemplyfied : Doth not Christ reprove his Disciples instead of contriving the ruine or removall of the Samaritans , though it was not difference in Religion , but incivility and inhumanity against the very person of Christ himself , that so stird the Disciples choler ? but whatsoever it was for , will you humour , justifie and make provision for such a passion , which Christ so sharply condemnes in his Disciples ? Pag. 2. Therefore should all care and diligence among brethren be used to get a right understanding of one another . Answ. 1. If by a right understanding one of another , you mean properly , viz. a calling of every thing by its right name , aggravating nothing , nor looking through multiplying glasses upon the inconveniences of each others opposite opinion I am for you , and shal call you a man of peace : Or , if you speak Metonymically , using the Cause for the Effect , and by right understanding , mean an incorporation into one opinion ; yet if you carry this impartially , and beg not the Question , but put them into an equall ballance , resolving your self , as well as desiring others to imbrace whatsoever shall appeare to be the truth , you do well : But if you will anticipate and forestall the judgement of your Reader , and nothing will please you but a coming over to your opinion , what singular thing , or what new Invention towards an agreement do you offer more then the rigidest Presbyterian confident of his own Way , and abounding in his own sense , hath done before you ? Certainly , if wee could turn Presbyterians , wee question not but the strife were ended : But here were a part worthy of a man of parts , in case we cannot be of one minde , to find out a Way of peace and love , and to move brethren to beare with one another , as you say , contiguously with the former , but have little endeavoured it yet , and not a little the contrary . Pag. 3. The honour of the Church , for which you professe you contend , is an unsavory expression , too much symbolizing with the stile of the Papists , as doth the practice of some men with theirs also . And whereas you say [ the honour of that Church ] you speak very ambiguously , and improperly , not determining where , or who that Church is , whether in England or Scotland , or elsewhere , or every where , whether Catholike or Nationall , tell us , that we may honour it with you . Pag. ead. . Some few lines below , where you undertake to reckon all the undeceiveable marks of the true Church , saying expressly , these are all those undeceiveable marks , &c. Yet having named only three , you eeke them out with an [ all other requisites ] not naming the rest , like the Bishops Et caetera ; who juggles now ? And whereas you say contiguously , From such a Church as hath the Gospel purely preached and believed , the Sacraments rightly administred , and in the which there is the true invocation of God and all other requisites , &c. there is no just separation . I answer , There is a whole Category of Amphibolies in your speech ; For neither by all the Requisites , do you say whether you mean Essentialls or Integralls : Nor by separation , whether you mean absolute and totall separation , or partiall ; from Communion ordinary or from all communion ; from internall or externall ; therefore I might justly take no notice of this , till you speak plainer ; yet to undeceive the world , we give this account and answer : An internall communion there is , and ought to be acknowledged between all the members of the body mysticall , whether they be in bodies ministeriall or no : an externall communion in all the common duties of Religion ; as praying , hearing , conference , admonition , may not be denyed with all Christians , and with all men occasionally to edification : An externall communion in Church-ordinances , as sacraments and censures , may not be substracted or withdrawn from a Church right for the essentialls , as if it were no Church , or under such a notion , but as from an imperfect Church , if it want integralls ; or a corrupt , if it be redundant with superstitions , &c. so it may : Lastly , an occasionall communion even in the Lords Supper , may be admitted with a Church that walks up to their light , with whom yet , perhaps , we cannot with comfort sit down ordinarily . As for your Apologie for the non-dedication of your Book , in regard of your sufferings for your former , I say only this upon it : It was far better with you when you suffered for Presbyterie in opposition to Prelaticall tyranny , then now , if you would make others suffer by Presbytery , in opposition to the Congregationall government ; only I doubt , in the sequele of your Discourse you will not be found to intitle the Lord Jesus to your book , ( as in terms you professe . ) If so , I hope there will be no quarrell between us ; for all wee contend for , is that the Government may be left where it is laid by the Father even upon his shoulders . As for God and Faith , which you joyn together , pag. 5. saying , You have learned to believe God and Faith upon their word and bond : I know not what that Faith should mean ; we ordinarily take faith for that whereby we believe , and not that which we believe : or if you take it so ( metonymically objectively ) what is it other then God , or the will of God , which I suppose you mean the Word of God ? For God , or his will in its Essence is not immediately objected to us , but hee reveales his will in his Word ; but to the substance of this boast , and that that followes ( if there be any substance in it ) if you will believe God and the sufficiency of his institutions , without the sureties of humane reason and authority , as you do here equivalently professe , you will not be offended at the Congregationall Way for that inconsistency and deficiency that is carnally objected against it . As for that you say , pag. 6. That this is no new opinion of yours , it is no more then the Papists may say for their Mysterie of Iniquity . And as for your sufferings for it , which you boast of ; alas , sufferings are subject to the same vanity and bondage of corruption as doings ; yea , and the whole creation are ( i. ) to be applyed to ill things , and graffed with an ill cause , though I say not it was ill as opposing Prelacie , or as it was a graduall recidivation from that tyranny . And as for the acceptance of your endeavours and sufferings , in that cause , and your inference thereupon , That therefore you see no good reason why a truth then should not be counted a truth now ; You beg the Question : Prove first it was a truth , otherwise 't is no wonder if that which seemed to be a truth six or seven yeers ago , finde not the same acknowledgement now , as might be instanced in many particulars . Next you come to state the Question , pag. 7. and immediately you give that which you call a simile of it , but if it be , it is 1. a carnall one , and I had rather heare , and it would better become a spirituall man to compare spirituall things with spirituall : for Christs institutions must not be exacted by the Last and Rule of humane ordinances . God gave Moses the pattern of the Tabernacle in the Mount , he doth not send him to take a pattern for it from any earthly frame or fabrick , though there were far more costly and curious , but the Tabernacle was to have , and had a fashion by it self that differed from all : When we know the true nature of spirituall things , of the devices of God , as I may call them , wee may finde a resemblance of them in things here below , which are made after them , but wee cannot fetch the knowledge of heavenly composures from these earthly things . 2. Yet neither is this bed of your simile large enough for the tall and proper limbs of your Presbytery to stretch themselves upon : For though the severall Companies in each city , as you say , ( though wee have not many such cities in England , except you have more of them in Scotland , wherein there are such severall Companies that have all their severall halls , ( e. g. ) Merchant Taylors , Grossers , &c. for to yeeld the matter of this simile ) are not independent , but associate and combined in a common councell , &c. yet there are Corporations as small as these Companies in the Kingdome , that are Independent , and doe not act in association or coordination . So that if the Churches in the Citie must , to hold correspondence with the forme of Civill Government , be in association and act in a Presbytery , yet this Simile will not carry any such thing to an ordinary understanding , that in the Countrey ( where they live three or foure , or more miles asunder , and act their Civill affaires independently ) they must doe so . Nay then , we will argue from the Simile : If the Townes in the Countrey be independent in their Civill Government , that is , act singly and independently ( in respect of any other Townes intermedling ) their own businesses and concernments , as they doe , why should not the Churches in those Townes doe so too ? then at least the Churches in the Countrey must be exampted from Presbytery . But 3. I answer to your simile , That as it is shorter then that Presbytery , as you would be willing to extend it in the praxis , may stretch it selfe upon , so it is abs re , farre from illustrating the sense you intend . For your simile in the true resolution of it proposes no other then whether Inferiors may act independent of their Superiors . For all those appeales , whereof you speake , are still resolved into a higher notion , power , and authoritie , ( e. g. ) The Lord Major , Court of Aldermen , and Common Councell , are superior to any Company or Companies of the Citie , in degree as their rulers , or amount to a superioritie in value and summe , as the representative of the Citie , the whole , which is better then any part : therefore your simile is not fit for this purpose . But now if you would propose a proper simile , it should be thus ; Whether Companies or Corporations , equall and coordinate , may not and doe not act their owne proper affaires and concernments independently in respect of one another ? ( i. ) Whether if a Citizen of Merchant-taylors Company , be aggrieved by the carriage of any thing in that Company , he can so appeale to the Company of the Stationers , and the Company of the Vintners , and two or three more , or the Heads of these , as to subject the Company of Merchant-taylors to the jurisdiction and arbitrament of those Companies ? for this is the case here . As suppose there be no imparity ( i. ) superioritie or inferioritie in the Churches , but all are coordinate , all are one Spouse to Jesus Christ , and he intrusts one Congregation as well and as much as another , and gives them as large a share of common interest in spirituall government , or managing the matters of his Kingdome , one Church as another , and hath made no Common Councell , no Court of Aldermen , no Lord Major in his Church , nor no Officers or distinctions answering to these . And suppose further , that as neither male nor female , bond nor free , so such a distinction of whole and part , have no place in this matter , but Christ Jesus the quickening Spirit be , as in all , so all in all , and each of these particular bodies ; and as a whole Christ went for the ransome of each particular Beleever , and a whole Christ is in every beleever , ( as the soule tota in toto ) so the whole and intire glory of Jesus Christ be intrusted with every particular Congregation , ( i. ) an intire and perfect administration of all government be committed to them , and the intire * spirit of government be in each such Congregation . Suppose , I say , it be thus ( as I conceive it will be found to be , ) that each part be to Christ as the whole ; Christ being indivisible , and recollecting his whole selfe in himselfe , and in every part of himselfe ( which the spirit of humane power , order , and authority cannot doe ) and so we cannot weigh Christ against Christ , Christs power against Christs power , nor many Congregations against one . I say , Suppose these things be so , then is it any Question , whether such Congregations may act independently ? When as wee know that Companies doe act independent of their fellow-Companies , and Corporations in the Countries doe act independent of other neighbour-Corporations : indeed they act not independently incontroulably of the higher names above them ; but a Company is not indicted by a Company , a Corporation by a Corporation . Untill therefore you shall prove that Churches are not coordinate , or that there are higher names then Churches and Church-Presbyters , or that the same persons are in higher place and office in a Classis , then in their owne particular spheares and Congregations , ( which if it were so , then why should they not have suteable names , that might import the superiority of the Relation ( even as the Common-Councell-Men , though they be Masters and Members of the severall Companies , yet when joyned in a Common Councell , they are not called the Masters of the Companies of the Citie , but by a distinct name of interest and honour , the Court of Aldermen , and Common Councell ) untill , I say , you prove these , your simile will lye in the dirt . I know wee have such names , as Classes and Synods , adapted and adopted to this Ecclesiasticall Hierarchy , but they being onely jure humano , will not passe with us for grounds of Authority or superiority in the things that are called by them . Next after your Simile you come to your Question , and to divide your position into foure Branches , which yet you fall off from again by a digression of sixteen or seventeen pages long , to prove , viz. That all the Churches we read of in the New Testament , were pregnant Churches , or accumulated of many , govern'd by a Common Presbytery : Which labour you might have saved , if you had hopes to make good the foure Branches propounded , ( two of which are , That the Mother-Church was such a Church , and so govern'd ; and secondly , That all other Churches are to be govern'd as that was : ) at least you might have kept this for a reserve , if they had failed . But besides that , you prove neither part of your Assertion , viz. Either that they were aggregated Churches , or that the Presbytery to which they were committed , was a joynt Presbytery , and not each Church to its particular , ( for those many Scriptures you quote , do neither of themselves sound so , nor for ought I see , doe you put such a twang into them : ) you commit these errors by the way . 1. You impose upon your Reader , without any authoritie or reason , that Diotrephes was an Independent , and that was the quarrell John had against him ; and that his Church was in the faction with him , when as wee have no mention of his Church at all , nor of his prating against the Presbytery . And for the crime objected , of seeking the preheminence , if the Lord keepe us that the world be never able to charge us with a likelier fault , we shall not be afraid to make our Accusers our Judges ; Alas , our offence is , that we are against preheminence . 2. You confidently exclude the people from having any hand in the Government , ( in which you account the solving of difficulties in doctrine , as well as other matters to be a part ) when yet in the places quoted , especially and most expresly , Act. 15. 22. the interest of the Brethren and the whole Church is spoken of , not in actu signato onely , but in actu exercito . 3. Pag. 18. You make the names of Pastors and Shepheards , when applyed to Church-Officers , to import that Authoritie , power , and government , as they doe when applyed to Magistrates : at least you make the symbolizing of Church-Officers with Civill Magistrates in those Names an Argument of communicating with them in such a kinde of power as they have , though not the same degree ; but how weakly , let all men judge . 4. Pag. 19. You exact the wayes of God by the line and rule of humane reason , and will give no more to an Institution , then it will goe for in that Market . 5. In the same page you put such an Objection upon the Independents about requiring Miracles , as the condition and qualification of Elders now adayes , els not to be acknowledged Elders , as I am confident the Congregationall judgement will not , nor ever did they owne , what ever some other Independents ( for it is a genericall name , appliable to whomsoever the inventers of it please , and more properly to some others , then they that are commonly called by it ) may doe ; but that it might be a scandall to all of the Name , you doe very wisely , and take the right course , not to name the booke or Author , where you finde that Objection . Pag. 29. You lure after your reader ( who might very well be turning his back upon your discourse ) that now you come in order to prove the foure propositions , but you keepe not this order long . The first proposition is ; That there were many Congregations and severall Assemblies in the Church of Jerusalem , &c. For the proofe whereof you bring the multitudes of Converts to Johns Baptisme ; The people of Jerusalem , all of them , and all Judea , &c. Whereby ( say you , ) they all became Christians , or Members of the Christian Church : For ( say you , ) Johns Baptisme was into Jesus Christ , and the very same with that of the Apostles . Wee answer to your Reason ; 1. Johns Baptisme was into Christ , but it was in Christum moriturum , not in Christum mortuum . 2. To say it was the same with Christs and the Apostles , is flat contrary to the Assertion of John himselfe , and the Apostles ; I baptize you with water ( sayes he ) but there comes one after me , who shall baptize with the Holy Ghost , and with fire . 3. Therefore now by Johns Baptisme they were not all made Christians , no more then the body of the Jewes before John were turn'd Christians by being baptized in the red Sea , &c. for they were baptized into Christ by their Baptismes . I deny not but this baptisme of John was to prepare men for Christ , and did beare a more immediate relation to such a worke , then any Ordinance before , but it did not make them absolute Christians ; It did not absolve and perfect the new Church , I meane not so farre as that Ordinance of Baptisme was to doe afterwards . 4. The learned and judicious know , that John was but the Messenger before Christs face , and his Baptisme was but as the streamings of light in the Heavens before the day , and he did onely bring and restore all things to their legall perfection by water , the Element of the Law ; but Christ Jesus he comes and baptizes with fire , Consummates all things with this transforming powerfull Element , even his Spirit . 5. So farre was it that all that were baptized by John , were made Christians , that even Johns owne Disciples ( who had the best and frequentest instruction , ) not onely hesitated , but were downright * scandalized at the true Messias ; and others did under that forme of Johns baptisme , fight against the true Baptisme and baptizer the Lord Jesus : so that I conceive this Argument ( were it granted that all the people received Johns Baptisme ) will stand in little stead to prove the Conclusion , viz. That they were made Christians , much lesse cast into a Church-mould , according to the New Testament forme , and least of all that they were all members of one Christian Church at Jerusalem . But note an absurdity in the sequell of the discourse , where the Doctor having got a multiplying glasse in his hand , goes on to make strange discoveries of the increase of Christian Beleevers , Pag. 36. he tells us , That Christ made many more Disciples and beleevers then John , and added daily to the Church that was then in Jerusalem , such as should be saved . Here 's two Paradoxes . First , That Christ made more Disciples then John : Out of whom should he make them , when as John had swept all along with him , as you affirme before , pag. 32. med. not taking it synecdochically , ( whatever you determine of it here . ) Secondly , That Christ should adde daily to the Church that was then in Jerusalem , is not this a marvailous anticipation and mistake , to apply that which was done by the Disciples after Christs ascension , Act. 2. last , unto the Ministry of Christ himselfe , and yet in the sequell you reckon this to the Apostles also expresly , pag. 56. Judge if here be not false Musters . And let me tell you , you give us occasion shrewdly to suspect your ignorance ( to say no worse ) to talke of a Church in Jerusalem , besides the Nationall Church of the Jewes in the life-time of our Saviour . And thus farre I have taken notice of most of the Materiall Excipienda in your Booke : I had thought to have bestowed as much time on the rest , but that other Considerations forbad me , therefore I shall onely briefly examine the maine Propositions that follow , omitting the Amplifications and Collaterall Notions that fall in the handling thereof . And so I shall leave this Proposition , without taking any further Exceptions to it , or any more passages in the asserting of it , and the rather , because there are , and those so able , already ingaged in the dispute thereof ; and come to the second Proposition , viz. That all these Congregations and severall Assemblies made up but one Church : Which Proposition , except the former stand good , is to little purpose , as the Doctor foreseeing is therefore very briefe in the manifestation of it , I shall not therefore be long in the Examination of it , though in that little compasse of lines he gives cause of manifold Exceptions . For first whereas you say , The Brethren themselves acknowledge , that all the Beleevers in Jerusalem were all members of that Church : If you meane the Church spoken of Act. 15. 4. I deny , and say , it is a grosse presumption , and begging of the Question , to say , that wee acknowledge all the Beleevers in Jerusalem to be Members of that one ministring Church , especially if you reckon all Johns Disciples and Converts to these Beleevers : For as there was a good space of time after there were multitudes of Beleevers , ere there was such a Church , so for any thing hath yet been brought to the contrary , it is probable enough that the true Beleevers , ( which were not so many after you have cut off Johns Converts , I meane those that did stick in Johns Baptisme , which were multitudes , and temporary Beleevers , which ceased to walke with Christ , which were not a few , and strangers , which did afterwards disperse themselves into severall Countries ) those that did remaine at Jerusalem , did gradually grow up unto Church-fellowship . And it amounts to no lesse then the former begging and presumption , that which followes , viz. That this Proposition is manifest out of the Scripture , viz. that they that were convented , are said to be added to the Church . For what if that be to be understood of the Church Catholick , and not a particular Church ? It may not be denyed , that the word Church , is often so used in the New Testament , and it is suspicious that the three thousand converted at once , were not so soone instructed in Church-followship as converted . As for that which followes , that they continued in the Churches Communion , and the Apostles doctrine : The Doctor hath moulded the Text for his own advantage , and indeed hath falsified it ; for 't was in the Apostles doctrine and fellowship , not in the Churches fellowship , except you are content it should be understood in the communion of the Church Catholicke , which is no more then in Christian Communion in generall : and for ought I know , that is all that is meant there : And tell me any act wherein the multitude of beleevers did communicate , that can bespeake it necessarily to be any more then a Christian Communion in generall , or what Christians may have together , though not of the same Church ; and the Doctor himselfe says before , The chiefe publique Ordinance they communicated in was preaching . To the third Assertion or Branch , Pag. 82. which is , That the Apostles and Presbyters , governed , ordered , and ruled this Church of Jerusalem , consisting of many Congregations and Assemblies , by a Common Councell and Presbytery . I answer ; First , I am not satisfied by any thing hath been alledged , that that Church consisted of many Congregations and Assemblies , and that upon the scruples before instanced . Secondly , In asserting that the Presbyters did rule that Church , and ordinarily other Churches , whom doe you hit ? Sure not the Independents , as you call them ; We grant , 't is their part to rule : but we distinguish between Authority and jurisdiction on the one hand , and power and interest on the other : this latter belongs to the people ; the other is proper to the Officers , which yet they exercise in the name of the Church : So they , ( i. ) the Officers ordaine , they excommunicate , ( i. ) pronounce Excommunication , they lead and direct in all Government and disputes , they have the executive power , as you demand pag. 93. But the people have a power and interest too , as those places alledged by your selfe shew expresly , Act. 15. For tho ver. 2. Paul and Barnabas are said to be sent to the Apostles and Elders only , yet ver. 4. they are said to be received of the Church , and Apostles , and Elders , therefore they were sent to the Church also ; and that word {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} with one accord , ver. 25. imports a multitude met together ; and this to be the result of that multitude , els it were no great commendation of the resolution that it was convened about and issued forth {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} . And though onely the Apostles and Elders are mentioned , as coming together to consider of the Question , ver. 6. yet it is said , ver. 22. that it pleased ( not onely the Apostles and Elders ) but the whole Church also , therefore the Church also came together to consult ; or the Apostles and Elders ▪ as a Committee , first prepared the dispute , as not counting it so safe perhaps to admit the weake to the same , while it was intricate , and then reported it , and had their assistance and concurrence ; and the Letters of resolution run in the name of the Brethren ( i. ) the Church as well as the Apostles and Elders , ver. 23. And so in Ordination {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} , ( i. ) Election by lifting up of the hand , belongs to the Brethren , though {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} , ( i. ) Imposition of hands , be proper to the Officers , where there are Officers , as in a Church constituted and compleat . 3. That where the whole Church is written to and exhorted to a part of discipline , that the Officers onely should be intended , as in confirmation of your Assertion you afterwards affirme by the instance of the Church of Corinth , we can no way admit . Rather on the other hand , Christ many times writes and directs his Commands to the Officers , when they appertaine to the whole Church , and are so to be understood , onely written and sent to them , as being principall parts of the Churches , by and from whom they are ex Officio , to be communicated to the whole . And for your Simile of Kings directing their Mandats to a Citie or Corporations , which are to be executed by the Majors , Sheriffes , &c. I conceive it doth ire in contrarium , it is contrariously framed to the manner , which is rather to direct to the Sheriffe or Major , what doth concerne the Corporation , and is required of the whole : and so we finde Christ to doe in the Epistles to the seven Churches . For that anticipating assertion , That the Apostles ruled this Church ▪ aggregate , not by vertue of their Apostleship , but by vertue of its union . I shall referre it to the next head , viz. That the Church of Jerusalem , and the government of the same , is to be a pattern for all Congregations and Assemblies in any city or vicinity to unite into one Church , and for the Officers and Presbyters of those Congregations to govern that Church joyntly in a Colledge or Presbyterie , which is your fourth and last branch of your first Question , pag. 97. Answ. 1. They are not an example of uniting or aggregation , except it be found that there were many churches aggregated , which a very facile and swasible reader may well doubt of , for any thing that hath yet been said to make it good . 2. If this were granted that many Churches did aggregate and unite in the beginning , yet would not this example be bindingly presidentiall : For as many things were done out of that ordinary course that was after setled , in the creation , and in a singular way by themselves , as the enlightening of the world without a Sun , the watering of the earth with a mist before it rained , the producing of fruits ex tempore ; which things afterwards ceased , being digested into orderly rules and courses ; so might it be in the first plantation of churches : Many things might pro tempore be taken up , which might not afterwards be continued . ( e. g. ) The Apostles did * serve Tables at first , but afterwards an office was instituted for that on purpose : So suppose there were in the Church of Jerusalem a greater multitude then could meet in one place , and yet all one church , and ruled joyntly by the Apostles and Elders thereof , ( which yet wee do not admit ) yet could not this from hence be drawne into president , because , that howsoever the Acts of government which the Apostles exercised , together with the Elders , in and over this Church , were common and ordinary and done after the ordinary manner ( as the Doctor contends ) yet I shall make bold to remember him again of that which it seemes hee remembers very well to have been answered in this case formerly ( though he make not so good an use of it ) viz. That the extent of their power in the exercising of these Acts there and elsewhere was extraordinary as was their persons and calling to Apostleship . And we do not so {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} by this distinction , that hee should not know where to have us , for 't is easily apprehended what we say is imitable , and what not imitable in these Apostles . And now for that cavill ; That the Apostles did not this by vertue of their Apostleship , but by vertue of the union of those assemblies . I answer , that in asserting it thus exclusively of their Apostleship , you suppose the Apostles to have been the officers ordinary , or at leastwise extraordinary of this Church of Jerusalem only , and so that they could not elsewhere exercise the like power , or not otherwise then by vertue of an union of churches , which is no greater prerogative then you will grant to ordinary officers now ; and so the Apostles shall have no greater a Commission then we , which is as to say , their persons were no more extraordinary , nor their office , then common Presbyters now adayes . But thirdly , to abound in the answer of this same matter , if that many churches in Jerusalem did unite and transact their affaires , or some of them joyntly , and that therefore we may do so , yet it followes not that wee must , whether we will or no , for this is to urge us beyond the pattern . The churches in Jerusalem ( admit ) voluntarily , spontaneously through the opportunity and advantage of the Apostles help , and through the strength of the spirit of love and confidence which they had one to , and towards another , and for other good causes and considerations , did act many things ( that concern'd the churches ) in an associated way , therefore all churches , will they nill they , have they the same grounds , reasons and incouragements , yea or no , must do so : Is this good Logick ? And that you may not think here is prevarication or jugling in this businesse , I for mine owne part must ingenuously grant and confesse , that I am not very solicitous concerning the answer of this matter ; for whether it were so , or it were not so then , that they did , or did not associate , I think it might be so now ; I mean , some kinde of aggregation and union might be , though wee might tread more confidently , having the steps of the Primitive Churches before us , that is , to speak more plainly , The Churches of Christ now , though possessed of an entire independent Church-power in each body ; yet may , when , and where , and with whom , and in what cases or things God shall perswade them , transact such affaires as they shall think fit joyntly and sociously ; provided , that hereby they devest not themselves of , nor prejudice themselves in any priviledge of an entire , sole , and and single administration , or the like , which Christ hath given them , but retain that power of resuming and recollecting themselves to themselves , when they shall see o●casion . And if the churches in Jerusalem did so , wee have cause to think this was all they did ; and if the Brethren of Antioch did appeale ( Acts 15. ) we have cause to judge it was a free and voluntary appeal , and they were not call'd and compell'd thereto . And that they , and wee in imitation of them , might do this , is no wave of the sea , but stands upon this bottome and foundation , viz. That no priviledge is a hinderance in that thing wherein it is ordained for a priviledge : and so the intirenesse of a Congregation whereby it is able to recollect it self , as having the whole spirit of government in it , is not to be made a barre to a church or churches , that shall finde it convenient , and for edification to joyn with other churches ( where God shall knit their hearts reciprocally ) in the common transaction of such affaires as they shall think fit and consent unto : But this cannot be prescribed and injoyn'd upon them by man , but is to be done electively by them , as flowing indeed , from a speciall love and pleasure , which those churches take in one another , and beare to one another . This we say in their ordinary affaires they may do , we speak not of cases extraordinary for difficulty and moment ; wherein , if their own means suffice not , they are bound to seek the help of other Churches . Briefly , to shut up all , Had we a Collegde of Apostles , or Apostolicall men , wee should make as much use of them , and reference to them as they did ; and were there more churches of such a temper and quality as they ought , ( that might be the foundation of such a mutuall dearnesse , pleasure and confidence ) wee might do more in this Way of associating then we do ; but wee hold it our right , liberty , and priviledge , to do what wee do in this kinde freely , and not to be compelled thereto ; nor indeed would it be any other then a meere formall association did it arise otherwise . Win us therefore to an association by the beauty of your fellowships , and you shall not need to compell us . THe second Question which takes up full one third part of his Book , is of the manner of gathering Churches , and of admitting Members and Officers proposed by him : 1. In the Chaos it seemes : 2. Orderly , ( as he supposes ) drawn forth into six Queries , though I dare not say there is not interfering tautologie and great confusion . The nature in which the things are , viz. of Quere , incourages mee the rather to do something in them , for that I hope the Doctor wil not be great of his own sense , but take an answer of these things from those that know the way better then himself , who it seems , is but a Caetechumenos therein . I shall here therefore indeavour to instruct him in stead of refuting him , for as much as to me it seemes unmeet , that a man should be polemically exercised before hee be positively principled . The first Quere which must go but for one , though it be Legion , I must answer to , part by part , as followes : Whether for the gathering of Churches , there be either precept or president in the Word of God ? A. Yes ; Is not the word a gathering ordinance ? are not the people thereby invited , yea , compelled to come in , and called to fellowship with the Saints as well as with the Father and the Son ? is not man a sociable creature ? doth not nature teach us for politique advantages to fall into societies ? is there not heat where two lie together ? and is it not foreprophesied they shall serve the Lord with one shoulder ? And lastly , Doth not Christ say , Where two or three are gathered together in my name , &c. But all this hitherto you would be as sorry it should once come into question as I : for who or what should be saddled for the Presbytery , but such a like thing as they call a church at least ? ( only by this I perceive what churches you would have {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} , not {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} ▪ ( i. ) All together , tag & rag , no selection , this is the way indeed to imbase the kind and make them carry gentle . ) I demand therefore further : ought not Church-societies to be particular , certain , and definite , for as much as that which is every ones work , is done by no body ; and to professe to owe equall and immediate duty to all , is both the way to perform it to none , and a signe that a man intends so ? But if that that followes must be taken for the meaning of this Quere , viz. Whether Preachers and Ministers of the Gospel did ever leave their own ordinary charges ( to which they are called , and whereto they are fixed with a command not to leave them ) and under pretence of a new way , &c. did run about , and alienate the mindes of the people well-affected formerly to their severall Ministers , &c. I answer , by no means is this warrantable : But I count a vast difference between a Minister or Ministers , going abroad of their own heads , and meerly under pretences in a secret clandestine way to get the hearts of men from their sound and orthodox Teachers , for this was the practice of the false * Apostles ; and on the other hand , a Minister or Ministers going forth with the consent and approbation of a Church or churches , when , or where Christ shall make an opportunity , and open a doore for the peaceable , comely and orderly doing thereof , either to vindicate some Truthes under reproach and disgrace through a cloud of ignorance and prejudice hanging over the eyes of men ; or to discover and lay open certain errours or usurpations wherein Christ is injured , and the Saints liberties infringed ; and this in a free ingenuous way of preaching and dispute , offering and commending their Doctrine and Way to the impartiall search and examination of all , both Pastors and people , ( that heare or will heare them ) by the Word , and all this not to such an end to breed any disaffection or alienation between people and their Ministers , but to make them both free by the truth , that they may both of them know and practice their severall duties , and Christ may reap the fruit of it in the honouring of his Name , and themselves in the comfort of their own soules , through obedience and faith . The former is dishonest and abominable , but this is honourable , and a duty for which wee have Pauls example , not only by a publique Epistle , undeceiving the Galatians of that errour they had suckt in from men , perhaps , of a worse quality , but even withstanding Peter ( an Apostle ) to his face , for haking in the matter of circumcision . For the third and last division of this Quere , Whether it was ever heard of in the Apostles and Primitive times , that any believing Christians were in great numbers congregated from among other believing Christians ? I answer ; 1. That 't is well known there hath been , and may be , great defects , even in believers themselves ; and such , as that they may need even to be cast into a new mould , as witnesse the Galatians , of whom the Apostle did travell in birth again , till Christ were formed in them . 2. It will be granted , that believing Christians should desire and indeavour to be instructed in the whole will of God , that they may touch no unclean thing ; and as they know , to be still true to their Principles ; and if in any thing their Principles exceed or go beyond others , they must not come down to them , although they carry the Odium and prejudice of a separation for it , but it is the duty of the others to come to them , which if they will not , liking rather to correspond with the world , how can it be helpt , or whose fault is it ? The second Question is , Whether for the making any man or woman a member of the Church , it be requisite and necessary ( to their believing and being baptized ) that they should walke some dayes , weeks , moneths , perhaps yeers with them , &c. Answ. Who holds it so ? but only that they appeare to the Church that receives them to be believers , let the means of the churches knowlege , or discovery , be what it will , ( as it is various ) so that it be not extraordinary and miraculous , we dare not trust Enthusiasmes nor blind charity . And to the other part of this Quere , Whether confession are required , &c. I answer , confessions are good , and may be to edification , but are not absolutely necessary , therefore not insisted upon as the condition of admission . These things being of fact and practice , let a briefe account suffice . For the third Question , Whether to the admission of any to membership or office-bearing in a church , the consent of the congregation or the major part thereof , as well as officers , be requisite . Wee hold it yea , and that as well in regard every one takes a charge upon him , as in respect of interest . For the fourth Quere of an Explicit Covenant , whether necessary to admission . Ans. I know not why it should be more inconvenient then a publique Nationall Covenant , which the Doctor by Nation is bred to approve highly of . But necessary we hold it not , therefore not as the condition of admission , so that wee see cause to judge it not to be scrupled in a way of provision for an arbitrary libertie of a roving and unsetled minde to slip the knot , when they dislike and dispense from dutie and obligation when they please , but that it be meerly a conscientious scruple , because they see not sufficient ground for it out of the Word to make it necessary , yet will owne a particular tye and relation for spirituall edification , in such case who will deny these admission ? For the fifth Question , Of womens votes whether they are admitted in Elections , &c. I remember a Question once in the Schooles , An Doctoris uxor eodem gaudeat privilegio quo Maritus ; but as for this , of Womens voting in the Church , wee have no such custome , nor any of the Churches of God that I know of . For the last Question or Quarrelsome captious Quere rather , Whether the practice and preaching of all these things , &c. be to set up Christ as King upon his throne ? I answer , No Question but the purging and purifying of Church-Ordinances and fellowship , which some contend for , is to set Christ upon a higher throne visible to the world , then by some other wayes he is ; though wee deny not he may have a throne in many Congregations not of this mould , and may be very highly advanced in the hearts of many of our Brethren , who never yet gave their names to the Congregationall way . In relation to whom my prayer is , That if they be in the right , the Lord would make them joyfull instruments of instructing us with meeknesse ; Or if wee , that the Lord would by us shew them his will , who would doe it , and have already received hearts from him to submit to truth , from whomsoever ministred to them . FINIS . The Postscript . AS for your Postscript , I finde it so foule , that I have adjudged it to lie in the STONE-BASON at Tunbridge wells , there to be washed till it be clean and fit to finger , and then I doubt it will be washed all away . Only , lest the frenzie thereof should have prevented me , and ere this have derived it selfe up and down , it may be needfull to adde , That whereas * * Pag. 61. of your Postscript . you wonder at the lenity and humanity of this Nation , towards those men , whom you nickname Independents , we conceive there will rather be cause to wonder at the clemency of the Parliament if they shall take no notice of this and other your seditious instigations , ( though I had rather see you repent then suffer . ) In the mean time , it sufficeth us , that you never wrote , nor could write such lines by those NEW LIGHTS you jeare , with such unchristian , yea , unmanly levity : for a man may safely say , such stuffe was written in the dark , not by any light , either Old or New . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A92974e-260 Prov. 14. 10. Luke 9. Vers . 53. Vers . 55. Isai. 9. 6. Pag. eadem . 1 Cor. 2. 13. Exod 25. 40. 26. 30. Isai. 28. 20. * Rev. 1. 4. 1 Cor. 1. 13. 3 Epist. Joh. Mat. 21. 25. Act. 18. 25. 1 Cor. 10. 3. Mal. 3. 1. * Joh. 3. 26. To the second Proposition . Act. 2. 42. Act. 6. 5 , 6. * Act. 6. 2. Luk. 14. 23. 1 Ep. Joh. 1. Eccles. 4. 11. Zeph. 3. 9. Mat. 18. * Gal. 17. Gal. 4. 19. 2 Cor. 6. 17.