To his reverend and much respected good friend, Mr. John Goodwin: be these I pray presented. Vicars, John, 1579 or 80-1652. This text is an enriched version of the TCP digital transcription A95901 of text R212477 in the English Short Title Catalog (Thomason E259_3). Textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. The text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with MorphAdorner. The annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). Textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. This text has not been fully proofread Approx. 24 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 5 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. EarlyPrint Project Evanston,IL, Notre Dame, IN, St. Louis, MO 2017 A95901 Wing V331 Thomason E259_3 ESTC R212477 99871085 99871085 123483 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A95901) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 123483) Images scanned from microfilm: (Thomason Tracts ; 44:E259[3]) To his reverend and much respected good friend, Mr. John Goodwin: be these I pray presented. Vicars, John, 1579 or 80-1652. Taylor, Daniel, ca. 1614-1655. 8 p. s.n., [London : 1645] Signed on page 4: Iohn Vicars. Caption title. Imprint from Wing. Includes: Taylor, Daniel. To his much respected friend Mr. Iohn Vicars [signed on page 8: D.T.]. Annotation on Thomason copy: on page 1: "feb: 11th 1644"; on page 8: "Dan: Taylor". Reproduction of the original in the British Library. eng Goodwin, John, 1594?-1665. -- Innocency and truth triumphing together. Puritans -- Controversial literature -- Early works to 1800. Independent churches -- England -- Early works to 1800. Congregationalism -- Early works to 1800. A95901 R212477 (Thomason E259_3). civilwar no To his reverend and much respected good friend, Mr. John Goodwin:: be these I pray presented. Vicars, John 1645 4305 6 0 0 0 0 0 14 C The rate of 14 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the C category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2007-06 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2007-06 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2007-10 Emma (Leeson) Huber Sampled and proofread 2007-10 Emma (Leeson) Huber Text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion TO HIS REVEREND AND MUCH Respected Good Friend , Mr. JOHN GOODWJN : Be these I pray presented . REVEREND SIR , HAving lately received from you , by the hands of my loving Neighbour and Friend , Mrs. Ducker , a both undeserved and unexpected favour , one of your last Books , intituled , Innocencie and Truth triumphing together ; I acknowledge it a just engagement of obliged gratitude , and therefore , accordingly , I do here return you deserved and most humble thanks for the same , by the same friendly hand . And because ( worthy Sir ) I conceived and considered with my self , that you sent it by way of love and desire to give me ( who am , as I acknowledge , a poor and unworthy Presbyterian ) satisfaction , if it might be , touching your Independent Church-way : I having now perused it all over , even à capite ad calcem ( and I hope with that pietie and impartialitie , as my God hath enabled me , which becomes a Christian and fellow servant to the same Lord Jesus Christ with you ) I therefore hope you will , not so much pardon ( which I pray not ) as accept ( which I heartily desire ) with Christian Candor , mine ingenuitie and plain dealing with you , in now giving you an account , briefly , as I thought it most fit , of what light or content and satisfaction I have received from it . Truly Sir , I having read your Epistle to the Reader , found therein very full and fair promise of your ingenuous aym and intention in the subsequent discourse , viz. that you projected four things therein , Brevitie , Perspicuitie , Moderation , and Satisfaction . But having , I say , perused your Book , truly Sir , ( if I am not mistaken , as I believe I am not ) you have come extream short of your promised project , in every of the four branches thereof . For first , if I found you short , I am sure I found you sharp and tart ; For Perspicuitie , I assure you I found much cloudie obscuritie ; Veri similitudinem multam , non ipsam veritatem ; satisfaction , therefore none at all . But especially , in that of projected moderation , and promised temperature in writing , ( the great defect , and foul fault , so cried out upon by Independents against all Presbyterian Writers or Speakers ) in stead of moderation I found abundance of bitternesse , and unsavourie jerkes and jeeres ( the light issues me thought , rather of a youthfull green-head , then the solid expressions of such a grave heart ) sprinkled , almost , over all your whole discourse ; which I must confesse much troubled and affected me with wonder to meet with , after such a seeming promise of moderation : Some few of very many whereof ( because I knew , Dolosus versatur in generalibus ) J have here particularized with their pages where they are evidently and easily to be seen . As first ( to omit your Via Sanguinea , with all its most bitter and biting , yea sorely wounding expositions of that term , in your Theomachia , &c. ) pag. 13. you compare Mr. Prynn in his Reply , to the two false witnesses , who falsly accused our blessed Saviour . And in the same Page you tell the Reader , Here Mr. Prynn vapours in his Reply ; immediatly after , in the same page how notably do you jeer and scoffe him about three Tabernacles ? And with what an elated spirit do you answer him , page 16. line 4. together with a down-right jeer about a Nationall Church , some 12 lines after ? You also grossely taxe him with errors , Page 17. Sect. 21. And Page 18. and 19. you frequently jeer him , and amongst those jeers you tell him , that Acts 15. is onely Mr. Prynns Gospell ; what a bitter and unchristian censure lay you upon him , and all Presbyterians , Page 24. Sect. 26. towards the end of it ? And O how you jeer him with his quotations , Page 37. towards the bottome ; as also Page 49. and Page 51. you slander him with want of Reason and Truth too ; and Page 52. you tell him , his pen spits black reproches in the face of Independents . You also accuse him Page 65. of much untruth ; and the same also again most fouly , Page 84. Together with a Notable jeer , exalting your selfe , and vilifying Mr. Prynn , which I have noted at large in your book , page 85. Together with very many other such like expressions , too tedious to be here recited ; And yet ( strange to consider ) you conclude them all ( with the conclusion of your book ) page 99. in a hortatorie way to Mr. Prynn in these words : That he would put lesse Vineger and Gall into his inke and more Wooll and Cotten . And in the Apostles words , Ephes. 4. 31. That all bitternesse and evill speaking be put away , as becomes brethren . And now any impartiall person may judge , whether you your self have followed this brotherly exhortation ; Nay , whether contrariwise , you have not with unbrotherly aspersions , indeavored to besmear the face of that precious Gentleman , most worthy ever to be honoured both by you all and us all ? Truly Sir , you Independent Gentlemen have dealt with this most worthy servant of the Lord , just as the people of Lystra did with the Apostle Paul , whom at first they so honoured and admired , as that they were ready to deifie him and make him a god ; but shortly after , they furiously indeavoured to stone him to death : So ye , at the first , in the time of Mr. Prynns first most elaborate and learned divine writings , yea and for his most glorious and Saint-like sufferiugs ; O then , how ye all ( with us ) most highly ( and that most justly too ) honoured him , and brought him home from bauishment , as it were in the triumphing Chariot of your love and praises ! But now , since he hath piously and faithfully written against your Independent way , and onely for this , O how have you and almost all of your way , indeavoured as much as in you is , to stone to death his illustrious reputation , by most unworthy and unchristian reviling and vilipending of him , both in words and writings ! Even him I say , who for his pietie , humilitie , incomparable constancie , fortitude and magnanimitie in suffering for Gospell Truths , was not inferiour to any of his most faithfull fellow-sufferers yea , whose soundnesse and sinceritie , whose profound learning and indefatigable labours in writing upon deepest points of Divinity and controverted Gospel Truths ( witnesse his Perpetuity of the estate of a regenerate man ; his Anti-Arminianisme , Vnbisboping of Timothy and Titus , his Histri-Mastix ; and many other his later , most learned , orthodox and precious peeces ) have made his never-dying name and fame most worthily renowned both in England and other parts of the world , beyond the Seas . And yet this noble Gentleman to be thus , I say , besmeared and bespattred with your unjust accusations , onely I say again , for writing the truth against Independent novelties ; O! it is most sad and bad to consider . Truly Sir , you must here give me leave to be yet more plain with you , I professe in the sinceritie of my soul , that I do most groundedly beleeve , that ( had Mr. Prynn been such a Non-sense , Consciencelesse , irrationall , false and frivolous writer , as you and others of your way only have strugled ( but all in vain ) to make and demonstrate him by your lavish tongues and pens ) that yet , I say certainly , Mr. Iohn Goodwin , was the most unfit man of all I know in London , to lay those undeserved criminations to Mr. Prynns charge . For , you know good Sir , that Qui in alterum paratus est dicere , ipsum vitio carere opertet . For you therefore , Reverend Sir , to take upon you to tax Mr. Pryn of errours , untruths , and such like , as you have done , how deeply you your self , ( before ever this most unhappy and unhol● difference of Independency with Presbitery was dreamed of ) have been ceusured both of Socinianisme ; ( and how justly too others have most learnedly in publike declared ) and more lately also how you have been discovered to hold a most Dangerous , yea a most Damnable opinion ( as a learned Independent Brother of yours termed it in my hearing , and who then said , he would justifie it against you ) touching justifying Faith by Christ . And now also , how fiercely you are faln on this unhappily disturbant new way of Independencie . I beseech you therefore , Reverend Sir , seriously to consider these things , to muster up your saddest thoughts , and to see into what a Labyrinth you are strangely and strongly intricated . Sir , I do not , I cannot denie , but ingenuously confesse that God hath given you much learning and eminent parts , but truly Sir , if I be not , mistaken , I greatly fear your Independent Proselites do too much magnifie , if not ( almost ) deifie you for them , and as it was with Pythagoras his Shollars , an Ipse dixit is enough , I , feare for many , if not most of your disciples , jurare in verba Magistri ; Whereby I pray God , your great parts and gifts bee not ( thus ) a great Snare to your soul , which I much feare , if not timely and truely seen into and prevented by Cordiall Self-deniall , and Holy Humilitie in your selfe , being more kindely affectioned with brotherly love , and in honour preferring others before your self ▪ Rom. 12. 10. And thus , Reverend Sir , I have made humbly bold , by your own occasion , lovingly and , I hope , fairly and friendly as a true Christian Brother ought , ( Levit. 19. 17 ) Liberare animam meam , and thus to manifest my reciprocall love and gratitude unto you , praying our good God it may be accepted with the like right handed Christian Candor , and Simplicitie of Heart with which it is sent and intended , I humbly take my leave and rest , SIR , Yours in our great Lord and Master Christ Jesus , to be commanded . IOHN VICARS . Jan. this 18. 1644. Imprimatur . Ja. Cranford . Jan. 24. 1644. An Answer thereunto . To his much respected Friend Mr. IOHN VICARS , These be delivered . ( The Author of this following Letter , did not intend it for the Presse , but sent it to Mr. Vicars in a private way : But Mr. Vicars his Letter comming forth in Print , and divers Copies thereof being disperst into severall hands by himself , it was thought fit that this Letter should be published also . ) SIR , WHether it was my good or hard happe to meet with your Letter directed and sent to Mr. Iohn Goodwin , I cannot easily determine : for though all manner of knowledge , either of persons or things , be in some kinde or other beneficiall ; it being an undoubted Maxime , that Verum & Bonum convertuntur : yet some knowledge may be so circumstantiated , that it may prove more burdensome and offensive to the party knowing , then commodious . I confesse from the reading of your Lines I have gained thus much , to say I know you : but this gain hath occasioned such a considerable losse in the things of my joy , that I doe even wish for my former ignorance , and could be well contented , to have met with no other description of your frame and temper , then what the promise of your countenance , and the report of your friends have made of you : Indeed it cannot but deduct somewhat from the comfort of a reasonable man , to see one , whom ( one would thinke ) gray haires should have taught the language of sobernesse , shooting with his tongue at rovers , and speaking sharpe and devouring words against persons and things , which hee knowes not . Sorry I am , that Mr. Vicars should break the fair face of his reputation upon this stone , against which this besotted world is dashing it selfe in peeces from day to day . I have some hope that though your zeale to Mr. Prinns glory , did cast you into such an extasie of passion , that you scarce knew what you writ ; yet by this time you have pretty well recovered your selfe again : and lest the sense of your miscarriage should too much oppresse you , I give you to know that you are falne into soft and tender hands , and have discovered your nakednesse to such onely , who rather pittie , then deride it . For my part , I love not to disport my selfe at the weaknesse of any man , or to turne his folly into laughter ; for what were this , but to reflect dishonour upon the same nature , wherein he partakes with my selfe . Rather , I could mourn over the vanities of your Pen , and weep to see you so farre intoxicated , as to call the most injurious dealing one shall lightly meet with , by the name of candor and ingenuitie . The truth is , you have so fouly berayed your paper with bold and untrue assertions , imputations , exprobations , and such like excrements , that I thought even for modestie sake to have drawne over them the veile of silence , and to have contested with that spirit that breathes in them no further , then by speaking to it in a secret wish , the Lord rebuke thee . But I considered with my selfe , that perhaps you might communicate in the nature of such persons who ( as Solomon saith , Prov. 26. 5. ) are apt ( being unanswered ) to be wise in their own conceits : and if I shall hereby demolish or at least weaken this conceit of yours , I presume I shall do you herein a very charitable and Christian peece of service . Think not I am become your enemeie , because I tell you the truth : you have injured me no other waies then by trespassing upon your own credit , and by making thereby a sad breach in that holy profession , wherein you stand ingaged with my selfe . What ever your intentions were , I conceive you have done me no more wrong in clapping the title of an Independent Proselyte upon my back , then Pilate did to Christ in affixing this Superscription over his head , This is the King of the Iews . I think this name to be full as honourable , as that of a poore and unworthy Presbyterian , wherewith you have pleased to baptize your selfe : and conceive that herein only you have followed your owne , or rather the Apostles counsell , in honour to preferre others be●ore your selfe . But had you been minded to suppresse your name , your very Dialect had been enough to betray you : Me thinkes you write just like such a one as you say you are . Did I not hope for better things from the hands of more worthy Presbyterians , your unworthy dealing had set me off ten degrees further from your way , then now I stand : But I will not take the advantage of your , or any mans misdemeanor , though more grosse and absurde then yours to render Pesbytery odious to the world : To cloath any opinion or practice with the garments of mens personall distempers , thereby to fall upon them and beat them with the more applause , is a method which I as much abhorre , as the Gentleman you admire , delights in : and if this property in him were one of those beauty-spots which ravished you into a passionate adoration of him , you need not fear , that ever I should become your corrivall : And yet I love and honour Mr. Prynn for what ever you can finde lovely and honourable in him : I cannot denie but that in some of his workes , he hath acquitted himselfe upon commendable termes ; but to say that in all things , he writes after the rate of a God , when in many things he falls beneath the line of a man , is to make him and my selfe obnoxious to the wrath of God , and the scorne of man . I acknowledge that for a time he ran well , but who hindred him ? questionlesse He who is ever and anon Hindring the Saints in the race of holinesse . The Prince of darkenesse owed him a fall for his sharpe contesting with his prime agents , and now hee hath payed his debt ; but if Mr. Prynn will bee ruled by the advice of his best friends , hee may rise again to his greater glory , and notwithstanding his fall , triumph over the envy and malice of the Devill . Concerning Mr. Iohn Goodwin , ( over whom you shake the rod of your reproofe , as if he were one of your Schollers ) I could speak as high and excellent Encomiums , as you have spoken of your preci●us Gentleman ; I could compare him even with Mr. Prynn himselfe : but such a comparison as this , would bee to mee most odious . I could tell you what hee hath done , what hee hath writ , how deeply hee hath suffered from unreasonable men ; yea , I could give you such a lively and bright description of him , as would dazle your eyes to look upon , and make you blush for shame to have grapled with such a person as he is , upon such rude and unmannerly termes as you have done . For you , who are but a Teacher of boyes , so haughtily to correct a great Master in Israel , is such an absurdity , as cannot but rend a more patient soule then mine , into disdaine and griefe . T is a wonder to me , that , whereas at the beginning of your Letter , you confesse your selfe to bee but a poore and unworthy Presbyterian , you should so far forget your selfe before you come halfe way , as to take upon you , like the Dr. of the Chaire ; and to censure the best of men and wayes with as much confidence , as if your pen had dropt the Votes of a Generall Assembly with its inke . Had a poore and unworthy Independent done the like , you would have cast this boldnesse into a Basiliske , and used it to batter down the way of his profession , and to lay the glory of it even with the ground ▪ But I well perceive , though you have scap't the snare of Gifts and parts ( in which you fear Mr. Goodwin is taken ) yet you are falne into the pit , not of Divine , but naturall simplicity ; and have verified the old Proverb , A rash mans bolt is soone shot . As for that Book of Mr. Goodwins , called Innocencie and Truth triumphing together , though you are pleased to triumph over both , and to cast it out as an Arch-Rebel to reason and morality , yet ( I must tell you ) it hath found joyfull and bountifull entertainement in the judgements of sober and intelligent men : But certainly , it was the unhappinesse of this Treatise to fall into your hands , when you stood upon the Mount of Mr. Prins honour , and when the vision of his transfiguration wrought so strongly in you , that you did not wot , what you spake , no , nor what you did neither , for you laid about you with such regardlesse fury that you broke the head of your friend Priscian , * of whose safety men of your profession , should be most tender . I thought to have argued the case with you , whether your exceptions against this Treatise and its Author , will hold in the Court of Reason and equity : but perhaps you are not so well skilled in the rules of this Court ; and I am loath to take the advantage of you . I shall only propound a few Querees , peradventure the struglings of your thoughts to give them satisfaction , may dissolve the inchantment that is now upon you . What persons did ever most learnedly declare Mr. Goodwin to be justly censured for Socinianisme ? When , or in what publique place did they make this Declaration ? How call you that Brother of his , who will justifie against him the charge of holding a most damnable opinion about justifying faith ? I suppose you must strain , not so much your memory as your invention , in shaping your answer : You had done well to remember , that though Fooles ( as Solomon speaks ) beleeve every thing ; yet wise men will question such assertions as these : Alas ( Sir ) the best course you can run to gaine credit with the prudent , is to cut your allegations and your proofes , just of one and the same length : to cloath large and broad sayings with curtaild Arguments , reflects as much shame upon such sayings , and him that speakes them , as Hanun did upon the servants of David● in cutting off their Garments to their buttocks . You cannot but know , how that many grave , sober , Godly , and learned men have falne into that way you call Independencie . Now , your onely method , to have brought over these to your partie , and to have filled their mouthes with the cry of a confederacy against this way , had bin this ; not barely to have affirmed it to be a novell and disturbant way ( as you have done ) but to have poysed the lightnesse of your affirmation , with the weight and substance of a Demonstration . I assure you ( Sir ) ( what ever you may thinke ) I approve of this way no further then I see the footsteps of those sweet sisters , Truth and Peace Printed in it : I have narrowly view'd it , and I can finde no drops of blood , no strewings of the liberties , estates , names , comforts of the Saints scattered in it , and yet some Travellers affirme , they have seen such things as these in that way , which the ignorance of thousands lust after . But to conclude , I beseech you ( Sir ) bee more watchfull over the extravagancies of your tongue and pen for the future : since you are ( in part ) acquainted with their infirmities , let it be your wisdome to seek their cure . I reverence you for age , piety , and some services you have done to the Publique ; and I should rejoyce to see such an ancient standard in the Garden of God as you are , carrying your hoary head with honour to the grave : which that you may doe , as I have ( you see ) in part indeavoured , so I shall further prosecute with my prayers to him , who is able to keep you to the end : in whom ( though I am unknown to you ) yet with all sincerity I professe my selfe , SIR , A cordiall well-wisher to your peace and credite : D. T. January 27. 1644. Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A95901e-1100 * The words in the written Coppy of his Letter , are these , and thus spell'd , qui in alterum paratus est dicere , ipsum vicio careat oportet , as may appeare from the originall in Mr. Goodwins custody . But it seemes the Corrector being the better Grammarian transform'd them into good Latine in the printed Copie . ]