An answer to (vindicate the cause of the nick-named Quakers of such scandalls and untruths as is falsly cast upon them in a lying pamphlet, otherwise called) A discourse concerning the Quakers set out by T.L., or, as I understand the signification of the letters, Tho.? Ledger / by Geo. Baiteman. Baiteman, George. This text is an enriched version of the TCP digital transcription A26776 of text R4254 in the English Short Title Catalog (Wing B1094). Textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. The text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with MorphAdorner. The annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). Textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. This text has not been fully proofread Approx. 77 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 18 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. EarlyPrint Project Evanston,IL, Notre Dame, IN, St. Louis, MO 2017 A26776 Wing B1094 ESTC R4254 13078958 ocm 13078958 97220 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A26776) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 97220) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 407:11) An answer to (vindicate the cause of the nick-named Quakers of such scandalls and untruths as is falsly cast upon them in a lying pamphlet, otherwise called) A discourse concerning the Quakers set out by T.L., or, as I understand the signification of the letters, Tho.? Ledger / by Geo. Baiteman. Baiteman, George. 35 p. s.n., [London : 1653] Place and date of publication from Wing. Page 35 dated: July the 16, 1653. Reproduction of original in British Library. eng Ledger, Thomas. -- Discourse concerning the Quakers. Society of Friends. A26776 R4254 (Wing B1094). civilwar no An answer to (vindicate the cause of the nick-named Quakers of such scandalls and untruths as is falsly cast upon them in a lying pamphlet, Baiteman, George 1653 15026 69 0 0 0 0 0 46 D The rate of 46 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the D category of texts with between 35 and 100 defects per 10,000 words. 2006-03 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2006-03 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2007-04 Ali Jakobson Sampled and proofread 2007-04 Ali Jakobson Text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion AN ANSVVER To ( Vindicate the Cause of the Nick-named Quakers of such scandalls and untruths as is falsly cast upon them in a lying Pamphlet , otherwise called ) A Discourse concerning the Quakers ; set out by T. L. or as I understand the signification of the Letters Tho : Ledger . By GEO : BAITEMAN . A Word to the Reader of this Booke . IT is common among the sonns of men , every one to vindicate his own cause , whether he be in the right or wrong ; For Solomon saith , Every man seems to be just in his own cause : And the truth is , every one will speake the best he can in his own behalfe . But Christian friend , whatever thou art that Readeth these ensuing Lines , I would have thee to understand , that I have not written these Lines in my own defence , or to vindicate my selfe of any aspersions that any can cast upon me in any kinde whatsoever ; for though I am a man who have undergone , and at this day doe undergoe the heavy burthen of false aspersions , cast upon me by the fools of the times , who neither know me nor themselves , yet to me they are no more then the barking of curs , the which may affright children , for my backe is broade enough to beare all the weight of these burthens , and am possessed with a Spirit , that maketh me easily passe by all the censures of men ; and had the cause been my own , which is included in these Lines , I thinke they had never come to the beholding ▪ but my Spirit is such , that it leadeth me out rather to justifie others then my selfe ; for I would have thee to know , that my Sect or Profession , Tenets or Religion , call it what thou wilt , is neither of that sort of People called Quakers , neither am I Papist , Prelacyan , Presbyterian , Independant , Anabaptist , Famelist , Brownist , Arryan , Atheist , Free-willer , Free gracian , Raunter , Saduccy , or Lihertine , &c. then make of me what thou pleaseth ; yet such a one I am as knoweth my right hand from my left , and that is enough for any man to know ; and by that light in me , I am made in some measure to see what is of God , and what is of man , and what is of the spirit of darkenesse : I professe unto thee , I am not the Enemy of any man , neither doth any mans Forme , or Religion trouble me , but wish all men well in their way : yet I must tell thee , that I am not unacquainted with the wyles of Satan , in Formes , and out of Formes , and likewise of Gods working , both in Formes , and out of Formes ; and what I have found by experience , I wish that all men had found the same , and a● hundred times more . And I must tell thee , I am led out to owne the truth of God , where ever I see it , in a Forme , or out of a Forme ; but the purest truths is not manifested in Formes , though Formes may have their time , and in their time is tollerable , if not Idolized . And to give thee a true Reason why I was led out to draw these Lines , it is to vindicate the truth in its appearing in some people in these dayes , the which is disposed to the scandall and reproach of most people in these times , some by wrong imprisonment , some by beating , some by threatning , some by false accusations and scandalls , some by Petitions , and some by writing lying Pamphlets , all of these arising from the very malice and instigation of the Devill , who would have these poore people destroyed ; for he well knoweth , that if these goe on , his kingdome will fall . Amongst those whom the devill moveth to act and speake against these people , one T. L. or Tho : Ledger , hath written a lying Pamphlet , the which I have here answered in some of his false accusations therein ; and if time would but have permitted , I would have answered them more fully : but what is here spoken , I hope may serve to give thee satisfaction of the truth in these people ; and if thou have but any light of God in thee , thou wilt see , and mayest easily judge , that these people are no other , then such as God hath marvailously called to himselfe , to make the riches of his goodnesse knowne in their soules ; and what ever , either Formalists , or other say against these people take thou heed thou be not as one of them , for better were it for thee to have a Mill-stone hung about thy necke , and throwne into the midst of the Sea , then that thou shouldest offend one of these that beleeve in God , in whom Christ liveth , and they in him . And for thy better information in the truth , I haue drawne these Lines , the which I freely commit to thy Christian consideration ; and the Lord give thee a good understanding , that thou mayest learne to have a good opinion of any People in whom the truth of God doth appeare . And my desire is , that the God of Truth may make his Truth knowne to thee , whereby thou mayst be made to know what evill is in thy selfe , and the emptinesse of all things acted and created , let thy Forme be what it will . This is the worst I wish thee , Geo : Baiteman . An Answer to ( vindicate the cause of the nicknamed Quakers , &c. THere is two great monsterous evils in the world , and they are common among the sonns of men ; and from these two evills , ariseth all other sinnes and wickednesse whatsoever , acted , spoken , or thought , either against God himselfe , or against any appearance of God in his creature Man ; and by the venome which ariseth from these two evills , one man is set against another in bitter envyings , evill wishings , evill speeches , evill actings , &c. Now these two great evills , is the very ground and originall Rice of all other evill , as is before-said ; the one of these hath its proper being in one of the chiefe faculties of the soule , viz. the Reason , and by the operations from thence proceeding the sonnes of men becommeth much deprived of the pure understanding of the truth as it is in Jesus . And the other great evill hath its proper being in another chiefe faculty of the soule , viz. the Will ; from the operations of which evill , ariseth all disobedience and rebellion against the Truth , as it is in Jesus ; yet the difference between the sinns arising from these grounds is great , though nothing that ariseth from either be good ; the evill effect proceeding from the ground , or cause , in the Reasonable part , will be found inferiour to these which ariseth out of the Will ; Yet wise Solomon saith , Without Knowledge , the Soule is not good , Prov. 19. 2. And God complaineth by the Prophet , That his People perished for want of knowledge , Hos. 4. 6. And Solomon , who knew how wicked the sonns of men were without knowledge ( and how darke and blinde they were in the understanding the dictates of God , without Knowledge ) how oft doth he counsell men to seek W. sedome , and prize her above Gold ? But who is that wise man that can truely distinguish between the Wisedome of God , and the light which is in Reason ( which may be much increased by mans own industry ) which seemingly may be of God , the light which is in Reason ▪ though never so much augmented by mans industry , in Reading , Hearing , Studying , or examination , cannot finde out the darkenesse of it selfe : yet man in that light may walke very zealously , and yet therein be the greatest enemy that God hath in the world , and doe more mischiefe against Christ and the Truth ▪ then those who have no illumination at all , neither act any thing in obedience to such light . Witnesse the Apostle Paul , who from the obedience to such light , Persecuted the Saints . And many of the Scribes and Pharisees , who upon the same account , put Christ to death . Yea , from the time that God hath been pleased to come neer the sonns of men ( by the 〈◊〉 of his Sonne in Flesh ) hath this ignorant zeale manifested it selfe ; and the Prophesie of Christ hath been in fulfilling till now , and as yet is not out of date , nor shall be , so long as men is hide-bound under Formes , which is the creatures owne actings ; nor so long as men is heart ▪ bound to any created thing whatsoever ; so long as these have residence in men , the men who is inveigled in them , shall alwayes be enemies of the Truth , when , or wheresoever the same becommeth truely to be manifest ; and yet none shall be greater pretenders of Truth , no● greater contenders for Truth , then those , who be the greatest opposites thereof : And he that was the Truth it ▪ selfe , beareth witnesse hereof in his Prophesie , where he saith , The time shall come , that those that Kill you , shall thinke they doe God service ▪ John ▪ 6. 2. But some may say at this day , there is no Persecuting of men for their judgement in matter of Worship , seeing that Liberty of Conscience is countenanced by the present Authority ; To which I say , there is a Persecution , and Killing in a two-fold manner ; The one being acted by the Ignorant zeale of Papists , Prelacians , and Presbyterians , and that Persecution was acted upon the bodies and states of men , who would not Worship God in their way ; but that I confesse , is much abated . But the second Persecution , or Killing , is yet untaken away , but is in as full force and vigour , as ever ; and that is the Persecution of the Tongue , and Hand , both being set on worke by the ignorant zeale of the hellish fire , that is in the heart , from which burning flame , the Tongue is made to utter scandelizings , and calumnious speeches , against such persons as God doth marvailously make his truth to appeare in their soules , because such soules is not made partakers of the truth under their good thinking rules , and faire seeming Formes : and from the zeale of that fire , their hands is set on worke to write ridiculous Pamphlets , in villifying the names , and actions , and intentions , and manifestations of such persons as have had a clearer sight of the truth , ( and fuller possession of the same , yea and live more in the power thereof ) then any person who is so glewed and hinde-bound to any Forme , though never so seeming holy in the same . And I wish that the Author of that Pamphlet , called , the Discourse concerning the Quakers , be not one of these good thinking Proselytes , who thinketh they have God hard tyed to them in the chaines of a faire-seeming Forme , and through that great light he may imagine himselfe to have , may become captived under a judgement , whose gates may prove as narrow as the eye of a Needle ; and then it is no marvaile to me , to see , or heare such persons throw durt in the face of God , or in the face of any in whom God doth more abundantly manifest himselfe to , then he hath done to them . Yet however , I will understand the Author of that Discourse in the better sence , and will not say that he hath put out that Pamphlet by the power of the ground of the evill that is in his will , but rather say ( and make it good to ) that he hath put it out from or by the power of the evill in his reason ; and these sins may happily be pardoned , before these which ariseth out of the evill ground in the will ; for the Apostle Paul himselfe was received to mercy , in as much as what he had done , he did it in ignorance . But now I proceed to what is intended . The Authour beginneth his discourse with interpreting the words of such Scriptures , as shew what great deceivers shall be in the last dayes , and doth make his applications according as his good thinking inspireth him ( in the understanding of th●se Scriptures quoted by him ) but that spirit that is his guide herein , I beleeve will not let him make the application of these Scriptures to himselfe , nor any of his order ; but if judgement were but layd to the lyne , and righteousnesse to the plummet , and that the tempest of hayle had but swept away the lying refuge ; and if he would but weigh his own heart in the ballance of the Sanctuary , I make no doubt but he might have made a truer application neerer home , for who is the greatest deceivers in the world , but such as have a faire seeming Forme of godlinesse , and yet live not in the power of God himselfe ; and these are the greatest hypocrites amongst men , for amongst such the white-devill hath his habitation , and the well-favoured harlot hath her bed of whoredome most daintily decked , whereon her lovers and she take their fill of pleasure ; O how well and subtilly doth she work , when once she getteth her selfe covered over with the habit of Saint-like walkings , in the outward form of a litterall Religion , which seems to be the worship of God , because of its newnesse , and well regulated , according as good-thinking hath invented , carrying men into Scripture without them , and yet unacquainted with the Scripture of truth which is within them . And from hence it is , that the mother of harlots becommeth well decked , and bravely mounted upon her searlet-coloured beast , and drunke with the blood of the saints ; let all Formalists in England ( of what Forme soever , Brotherhood or Kirk-fellowship , though their Forme may be the best in all the world , and come to the very point of example and command of Scripture in its outward requirings ) take heed ▪ for though they may blesse themselves in a fools Paradise , and think because they have got at a great distance from the Pope , and his fictions , therefore they be sure that they have nothing to doe with the Mother of Harlots , nor she with them ; yet they are but cheated , for she cannot delight her selfe , nor be more secure , then where Formes is in fashion : For where there is not a Forme , this Harlot may be entertained , but yet not with such suptuousnesse as in a faire seeming Forme ▪ for where there is no Forme , she is forced to goe on Foot : but in a Forme she becommeth well-mounted . Our Saviour knew the truth of this , which made him pronounce so many woes against the Formalists in his daies , and told them it should be more tollerable for Sodom then for them ▪ for the truth is , those be the greatest enemies of God and his Truth that possible can be , and the greatest deceivers in the world ; and an hypocrite is not to be found anywhere , but in a faire seeming Forme . And where the Authour ( of the Discourse concerning the Quakers ) is speaking of Atheists and Apostates ; it will be found that the greatest Atheists in the world , is where there is a God most confessed with the Tongue , and yet the heart walks contrary to the Tongue : It is not the confessing ( and acknowledging ) of a God with the Mouth , that frees men from Atheisme ; no , no , the greatest Atheisme is in the Heart , and there it is ; and it mattereth not what any talke of God , or of Religion ( or of fantasticke in coms of Christ into the soule ) so long as men have not found out an Atheisme in his owne Heart , and out of that be brought to have the true Knowledge of a God : that God which men come to know no other way but by Scripture relation , will but prove a phanta sticke god ; for the fancy of Formalists shapeth him out in so many severall fashions , that ost-times they fall out amongst themselves , about the fashion of their relative god ; but when they can agree about the fashion of their god found out in Scripture , then doe they busie themselves to patch up a faire seeming Forme , and therein they worship their God , with hand and foot , tongue and eye , and all the rest of the members , at sometime . But yet I would know where the Heart is , and what is the god thereof , I much feare that its god , is a creature , not much unlike the gods of the Heathen ( in the time of the Jews ) who was made of gold silver , wood and stone ; Let but the Saint likest Formalist in England minde the truth of this , and I beleeve he shall finde , that such god are the gods of his heart ; let him or them , but well consider , and ponder , but one day to mind seriously the wayes and out-goings of their heart ▪ and they will finde , that a creature of some kinde is the god thereof ▪ and whatsoever they shall finde the heart to be led out to , take it for granted that its god : For our Saviour saith , Where your treasure is , there is your heart ; and no man can any way know his owne heart , but by its thoughts , inelinations , desires , and intents , &c. which be the effects thereof : And if the creature have the thoughts , cares , feares , loves , and desires , that is its god for sure ; and look what god the heart confesseth , and worshippeth , and liveth in , that god shall be the help of man , or else his destroyer . It is no hard matter for men to conforme to any kinde of Kirke-fellowship , and in the same to talke of God , and walke in the literall obedience of that Forme , ( ●● what Scripture requireth ) and yet for all that , deny the God of Truth with their heart ; let but the Author of that Discourse look well about him , or rather to within himselfe , and he need not goe farre to finde Atheisme and Athests to purpose . But where he is speaking os Apostates , I would have him to know , that none can justly be so called , except they have been first made partakers of the Truth , and love of God , and from that have turned away , to love the world ; but man cannot be an Apostate , in turning from one Forme to another ; neither if a man turne himselfe out of all Formes , for it is not the falling from Formes , that make an Apostate , but a falling from the Truth and love of God , that maketh man an Apostate ; and a man cannot fall from , or turne from that he never was possessed of : and if any have been made partakers of the love of God , and yet have turned therefrom , and so become an Apostate ; yet such a one must be saved , or else that Author must race out many Scriptures , or else learne to understand them otherwise , then they be understood amongst Formalists . For they say , Whom God once loveth , he loveth him to the end ; and if the Author doe not befoole his own judgement , and the judgements of his Fellowes , he cannot gaine-say it , but that Apostates must goe to Heaven . But I beleeve the Author must goe to some other then himselfe ( and to others then those amongst whom he hath his Fellowship ) to seeke out Apostates , for I assure him he is none himselfe , and I beleeve they are very scarce where he liveth . I much doubt , that neither himselfe , nor his Fellow-worshippers as yet have been true partakers of Truth , and then it is impossible for him or them , to fall from ▪ or turne from the thing they never had ▪ so I will cleare both the Author and his Fellowes of the sinne of Apostacy . But what better are they that beleeve a Lye in stead of Truth , then those who have known the Truth , and yet turned from it . Seeing the Author hath taken paines to quote Scriptures , and time to apply these Scriptures , for the aspercing of a people more simple then himselfe , ( or any of his Fellowship ) I would wish him to have a care , that he be not like those , that as yet have the Beame in their eye , whereby they be blinded in beholding of themselves , and so can quickly condemne others , and yet justifie themselves . But I say , Happy is he that is not condemned in the things he alloweth . It s true , the Scripture speaketh of such Deceivers as should come , and in the time of the Apostles ( began such Deceivers to arise ) but after their death , they much more increased , till at last , the truth it selfe was over-shaddowed ; and in all Generations since that time , untill these dayes , the truth , as may be said , hath layd under Clods of Earth ; but now , when it beginneth to shut up it selfe , ( and begin to spring ) how wonderfull madd is the Foxes , ( Beares and Lyons , Wolves and Owles , Dogs and Swine ) at the very appearance of it ; but it mattereth not for all their madnesse , for a Stone cut out of the Mountaine , without Hands , shall dash in pieces all the faire Images of Humane Worship ; and a North Winde with a Tempest shall arise , and rent asunder the Harlots Robes , for the Lord himselfe will bring the same to passe ; For he hath said , that in the last dayes , He will powre out his Spirit upon all Flesh , &c. And in the last dayes , the Mountaine of the Lord shall be established upon the top of the Mountaines , &c. When this commeth to passe , as sure it will , then let all blind Priests ▪ and good-thinking Formalists look to themselves , for the day of their visitation is at hand . But to proceed , I come to the Authors words in his Discourse , where he singleth out two sorts of People ▪ to be the objects of his applyed Scriptures , and especially the one of these be the very subject of his Discourse ; and these he calleth : Quakers , which , saies he , is either counterfeit , or comes from the power of the Devill , &c. If this Author himselfe , have not undergone the powring out of the justice of God upon his soule , in such a measute , as hath made all his bones to quake , let him not judge those who have been so dealt withall ; for before any soule be truely brought to live in the power of the life of God , he shall undoubtedly passe through the justice of God in such a measure , as shall make both his bones , and all his faire prosession quake ; and though the Author have not knowne this by experience ; yet I marvaile that such a one as he , who cryeth up Scripture so high , as to make it no lesse then God himseife ( as shall be shewed afterwards ) should be so unacquainted with Gods dealing with some of his people in former time ; For sure if he had lived in those dayes , he would have called Moses a Quaker , and that his trembling proceeded from the Devill , when the appearance of the Majesty of God ( in the terrible giving out of the Law ) was manifested to him , Heb. 12. 21. And sure he would have said that Ezekiel was a Quaker , and his trembling was of the Devill ▪ when he eate his bread with quaking , Ezek. 12. 18. And of Daniel , and those with him , would he have said the same , when the Majesty of God was manifested to to them , Dan. 10. 7. And if this Author had been beside the Campe of the Israelites , before the giving out of the Law , he might have seen Quakers great store , Exod. 19. 16. And if he had lived in Ezraes time , he might have seen Quakers enough , Ezra 9. 4. What would this Author have said , if he had seen Habakkuk tremble at the appearance of the Majesty of God , Hab. 3. 16. What doth this Author thinke of Mary , James , and Salome , who trembled at the rising of Jesus , Marke 16. 8. Or of David , when his Flesh trembled for the feare of God , Psal. 119. 120. And of Foelix , who trembled at the words of Paul , A & s 24. 25. And of Job , who trembled at Gods dealing with him , Job . 4. 14. & 21. 6. And is not trembling an evident symptome of the soules undergoing the wrath of God for sinne , as may be seen in Esay 51. 17. 22. Was not Ephraim exalted , when he spake trembling , Hos. 13. 1. What was Paul , when he was converted to the Truth , Acts 9. 6. From what spirit came the Jaylours trembling , when he fell at the feet of the Apostles ? Is quaking such a strange thing , and of such an evill nature , when the Apostle commanded the People , to worke out their Salvation with feare and trembling , Phil. 2. 12. It were too tedious to rehearse all presidents in Scripture which is of like nature , which beareth witnesse of the truth of quaking : but this Author layeth not to heart what People the Scripture saith should arise in the last time , such as should be false accusers and mockers at the workings of God . But I would have this Author , and all other of his Fellow Formalists , to consider the Word of the Lord spoken by Esay , in the 66. Chapter , for there are you all Pictured out , and spoken to . And so are the poore despised People also , whom you call Quakers ; I will not rehearse the words , but wi●● you , and all other accusers and mockers , to reade the same , and the Lord give you the true understanding of it ; and I wish , that that Author , may be better informed in his judgement concerning the workings of God in his creatures ; and I wish him to Pray , that his lyes , and the evill thought of his heart may be pardoned . Further , this Author saith , That these People are possessed with an aussere Devill , because they take no more of the creatures then will serve necessity . And in opposition to them , he is speaking of a People called Raunters , who exceedeth in these things ; but as for such , I have nothing to say for what they doe , cxcept God let such a People rise , to be a● signes of the pride and rich deckings of the Harlot , in those , and by those ▪ who have a Forme of godlinesse , and yet live not in the power of God . But as for these whom he calleth Quakers , my spirit is led out to justifie them in what they doe , as concerning the bringing downe their pride of heart , and mortifying the sences ; but such worke as this , is not tollerable amongst Formalists , who can have the liberty to feed their sences , and uphold their pride , and keep reputation amongst men , and runne after profit as greedily as any in the world ; nay , is not almost all knavery in the world , masked with a Forme of Religion in these dayes . Formes of Religion is the fashion of the times ; and now adayes Priests , and witty men , and Taylors is all hard put to it ; the one to invent the finest Forme , and the other to invent new Fashion of Apparell for these Formalists to weare . And when God is pleased to raise up a People of his owne accord , to forsake the folly of these things , and to cry out against the evill in these things , O how doth the Harlot in the Formalist , begin to stir her selfe , and by all meanes possible , seeke to scandalize , or root out such people , as would have her skirts turned over her Face , that her nakednesse ▪ and naughtinesse might appeare . But this is no strange thing to me , for it hath alwayes been the fashion of the Sonns of the Bond-woman , to persecute the Free-borne Sons ; and I make no doubt but if Christ and John Baptist were both in Person among us ▪ but that the one would be called a friend of the Publicans , and the other that he had to doe with a Devill . For wheresoever there is a Forme of godlinesse , and the power awanting , these people cannot chuse but be the enemies of God , and the greatest opposers of his Worke , when he Worketh or bringeth any thing to passe , contrary to the order they have limited fo● him . The Author in his proceeding , takes it for a strange delution , that these People live above Ordinances , and that they should have a light in them equall to Scripture , and that that light should be the holy Ghost , and that they need not Scripture to be taught by , because the same is fulfilled in them , and what they speake or write , is equall to Scripture : And then bringeth in a saying of Christs , to admonish People to take heed of such light ; the which he applyeth as truely , as quaking and trembling comes by the Devill : the which is cleerely confuted before : As to the first of these , viz. That People should be led to live above Ordinances ; I would know of the Author what Ordinances he meaneth of ; whether the Ordinance of God , or the Ordinances of men ; and I would have him to know what an Ordinance is , and for what end Ordinances was ordained ; and I would have him to know a difference between an Ordinance of God , and that which is but the Ordinance of men ; but I feare he cannot as yet see a difference between them , and therefore maketh a humble jumble of both together . But for the clearing of the same ▪ I would have both this Author , and all other of his order , to understand what shall be said concerning Ordinances . As for that which is an Ordinance of God , we have commands for the observing of the same . And one of his chiefe and greatest Ordinances , is his Sonne Christ , one with himselfe , Acts 10. 42. and in as much at he would have us obedient to that Ordinance , he hath given out his Command , To love the Lord our God with all our heart , &c. and beleeve in his Sonne Jesus Christ whom he hath sent . Now the fulfilling of these commands in being obedient to that Ordinance , it is out of the compasse of the power of every man ; and therefore God in stouping to the weakenesse of men ▪ hath given out other inferiour Ordinances , as Rules for men while they are in their weakenesse ; and those Ordinances are within the power of the creature man , to be observed ; as Reading , Hearing , Praying , Baptizing , Breaking of Bread , &c. Yet in these inferiour Ordinances , I would have men to be so wise , as to understand the ground , and intent ; or the cause , and effect of these Ordinances . It will be found , that sinne is the cause or ground of all Laws , or Ordinances ; For the Law was added because of transgression , Gal. 3. 19. And the Law is made for the ungodly . 1. Tim. 1. 9. And Gods intent in giving out Laws and Ordinances , is , to be as a Line or Rule , untill the effect be brought to passe , viz. that a man be brought into that condition ( by walking by these Rules ) of the knowledge of himselfe , and his owne weakenesse , and the weakenesse of all those Laws and Ordinances , that so the Soule may be made ●it to close with that which is the chiefe Ordinance of all ; and the soule once being truely brought to live under obedience of the chiefe Ordinance , all those inferiour Ordinances is of little use : For there is a time for every thing ; a time to Plant , and a time to plucke up that which was Planted For the Law was added because of transgressions ; so is all Ordinances : But the Law maketh nothing perfect , Heb. 7. 29. no more doth the inferiour Ordinances . But when the Promised Seed is come , the Law hath no more jurisdiction over man ; and when that which is perfect is come , then that which is imperfect is done away ; The Law and Ordinances are not perfect , but imperfect ; and yet not imperfect , but perfect : But marke well what I say in defining my selfe , for the Law , or any of Gods Ordinances , hath a perfection in them ; but their perfection tends to death , by reason of the sinne that is in us ; and the greatest perfection that is in any Law or Ordinance , is but to bring man to be perfectly made senceable of the sinne and selfenesse that is in him . And when man is brought thus farre , Laws and Ordinances is but of little use , for further man cannot be brought by them , and so their perfection is at an end ; and what soule soever findeth not this to be true in observing of Ordinances , may take it for granted , that he hath not been faithfull in walking close by the rule of the Ordinances ; or otherwise , the Angell of darkenesse hath playd that soule a tricke of which it is little capable , and so raiseth some certaine sweetnesse in the soule out of the walking in these Ordinances ; and the false fiend maketh the soule to beleeve that to be in comes of Christ , when it is nothing else but a life raised out of that whose nature is alwayes to produce death ; and when the false fiend hath got power to worke this worke , no marvaile if such soules cry up Ordinances so fast , and cry downe any appearance of God in others who are let see , and led out , from such delusions : but I let such passe with the saying of the Prophet , Thou hast wearied thy selfe in the greatnesse of thy wayes , yet saidest thou not , there is no hope ; thou hast found the life of thine hands , and therefore thou art not grieved , Isay 57. 10. In every soule ( which is rightly carried on into that which is the chiefe good ) it will be truely made appeare , that the perfection of Laws and Ordinances is fulfilled in bringing it into a perfect death : and the imperfection of Laws and Ordinances will appeare , in that they cannot restore the pure life to the soule ; but that proceedeth from another Fountaine , viz. the chiefe Ordinance ; and when that which is chiefe and supreame , is come , that which is inferiour is out of date with that soule , and so it is made to live in that which is chiefe , above that which is inferiour ; for these inferiour Ordinances are but Childrens Tutors in their minority , untill the time appointed of the Father ; though Children may sometimes , for want of knowledge , be led out to love their tutors better then their Father ; yea , and thinke both their Fathers , and all other enemies that would seeme to seperate them , and their Tutors ▪ though it were to carry them to live in the bosome of thei● naturall Fathers ; but these are but the foolish thoughts of Children , and the Apostle was such a one at sometime himselfe ; but when he grew up to be a man , he put away childish things ; meaning , whatsoever was inferiour to the living , in that which was the chiefe Ordinance , even the love of God in Christ , or Christ made truely knowne to his soule ; and was the Apostle condemned for saying so , or dare any judge , or question his light that led him into that condition , or who dare say that he was in an error , when he counted all his religious walking by the rules as dung and drosse ? Phil. 3. or who dare say that he was guided by a false light , when he counted Ordinances , but as shaddowes , and reproved the people for being subject to such things ? Col. 2. 20. But you may say , That these was Ordinances Instituted in the time of the Law , but now we live under Gospel-Ordinances , and therfore none may live above them . To which I say , The Ordinances under the Law had their time , and pointed out that which was the end , viz. Christ appearing in the Flesh , and there they ended : and the Ordinances under the Gospel hath their time , and their end also ; and that is , when Christ appeareth in the spirits of men , for he is the end of all Ordinances whatsoever , to them who live in him , and he in them . But you may say , That Beleevers in the Primitive time , made use of Gospel-Ordinances , whose Example it behooveth all men to follow . To which I say , it was meet they should doe so , at sometime especially , when they were in their minority in beleeving ▪ and so for all young Christians : For as I said before , there is a time for every thing ; but even in the Primitive time there was degrees of Christians ; some Children , some young-men , some old-men , or Fathers ; and it was the wisedome of the Apostle , to frame his discourse and behaviour to every ones condition , and to feed Children with Childrens meate , and to give to the stronger such as was suteable for them . And while the People was so contending about Orders and Ordinances , the Apostle judged them but as carnall , and was but to be fed with Childrens meate ▪ 1 Cor. 3. 1. 2. 3. and while they were to be fed with such food , they were not in a capacity of living of any other thing ; and such were these , who could not see beyond the Ordinances ; which was but the first Principals of Religion , Heb. 5. 12. And who dare say that the Apostle was led with a false light , when he seemed to slight Gospel-Ordinances , and leave them , as low things ( being but as the Alphabet of Christians ) and so reach out to higher , even to that which is the substance of all things , wherein perfection was to be attained ? Phil. 3. 13. 15. for though the Apostle had to doe with Children in his time ; yet he had to doe with men , who was more excellent , and was not in bondage to weake and beggarly rudyments , nor lived upon shaddowes , nor was fed with Childrens meate of Ordinances , or busying themselves with the Principles of Religion ; but was men of full age , who through the great mortification and selfe-denyall , was brought to understand what was good , and what was evill , and would not take things for good because they seemed to be so , Heb. 5. 13. And amongst such , the Apostle could be understood , when he spoke of the mystery of the Wisedome of God , 1 Corinthians 2. 6. and these were of like spirit with him , led out , and beyond , or above Ordinances , Laws , and inferiour Rules , and aymed at nothing , but the price of the high calling , and the attaining to the Resurrection of the Dead ; and to him there was but one Rule to walke by , and that was the Rule of the Crosse of Christ , by which the world became Crucified to him , and he to it ; and those that were perfect , and aymed at perfection , was to walke by the same Rule , Phil. 3. 15. But now perfection is cryed downe , and a man may almost as well speake blasphemy , as speake of perfection , and any rule or ordinance is highly esteemed , bu● the chiefe Ordinance , and the rule and imitation of that Ordinance , viz. the Crosse of Christ : Nay , the very appearance of this , scareth all men in a Forme , or out of a Forme ; For this rule of the Crosse is that which will try all hypocrites in the world , for they are not able to abide it , for it destroyeth all faire seeming holinesse , and all worldly mindednesse , and all pleasure , prayse and reputation ; and therefore no marvaile if there be so few who dare take up that Crosse , and walke by that Rule ; and that those who have closed with it , should be the reproach of all men . The Apostle himselfe was not a little troubled with Professors , who was the very Enemies of the Crosse of Christ , and with weeping Teares tould his beloved Hearers that sad story ; but if he were alive in these dayes , he might have weeping enough , for such Professors , as are the enemies of the Crosse of Christ , whose God is their belly , who glory in that which should be their shame . who minde earthly things , Phil. 3. 17. And I make no doubt if the Apostle Paul , and those to whom he spake the Mystery of the Wisedom of God unto , were amongst us , but that these Professors who pretend ordinances so much ( and yet in these ordinances the very Enemies of the Crosse ) would call them deluded men , and carryed away by a false light . But I hope the Author will know hereafter , what it is to live under ordinances , and what life that is that is led above ordinances . But I am somewhat affraid , that the Author is somewhat mistaken about the ordinances of God ; and that he taketh the ordinances of men , for the ordinances of God : but at present I will not stand upon defining every ordinance , whether it be of God or Man , but one onely , and by that let him and all other judge the rest : I doubt he takes the Priests of these times for Gods Ministers ▪ and so may call them an ordinance of God ; nay , and amongst Fools , they are accounted one of the chiefe ordinances , and so they call themselves ; but if the Author thinks so , he is mistaken , and so are all other that take them so , for they are none of the ordinances of God , for he never sent them neither have they any Commission from him ; but they are an ordinance of men , and by men were they sent out , and of men have they learned their Ministery , and of men they have their Commission , and for gaine it is they seek , and for prosit it is they Preach , and runne as greedily after it , as the hungry dog doth after his prey ; and if hire were but taken away from them , all the world might see who ordained them ; and these have been the greatest enemies of the Crosse of Christ in all the world , and by them hath the eyes of men been blinded from the true beholding of the Truth ; but let but the Free borne Sonns have patience a while , and they shall see that brought to passe , which all the Preaching , Praying Consultations and Petitions of all the Priests in England shall not be able to turne away ; their feare is upon them already , and their fall is not farre off , for God hath born fourteen hundred yeares with them , but his patience is well-nigh at a period ▪ their guilt beginneth to stir , and their feare is such that they thinke every bush is a boggle , this is truely apparant amongst them , ●or the very name of these simple despised people , called Quakers , doth scare them , and make them runne together as so many Wolves , which is scared by the bark of a dog ; and all their Consultations is , how to get these poore people destroyed for their heart tells them ▪ if these increase , their Kingdom will be destroyed : but of that no more at present . The Author of that Discourse , taketh it in high disdaine , that these people should say , they have a light in them equall to Scripture , and that that light should be the holy Ghost , and so need not Scripture , because the same is fulfilled in them , &c. If this Author had but taken good notice of the Scripture , he need not have slighted these sayings ; for in saying so , they doe not vary from the truth of God declared in Scripture , nor from the promise of Christ made out to those that are his followers ▪ as may plainely appeare in these sayings , When the spirit of truth is come , he will guide you into all truth , &c. John 16. 13. and further , his promise was , that when he was departed , He would send the Comforter ▪ even the spirit of truth , which proceeded from the Father , which should testifie of him , John 15. 26. And moreover , our Saviour saith againe , When the Comforter ▪ which is the holy Ghost is come , whom the Father will send in my name ; he shall teach you all truth , and bring all things to your remembrance , &c. John 14. 26. I hope the Author will not deny the truth of these Scriptures ; and if these promises be fulfilled in any man ▪ what need hath such of Scripture reaching without them , when they have received the same spirit within them , by which all true Scripture was written : and how much is the words , proceeding from that spirit , inferiour to Scripture , except the holy Ghost have changed its nature , and be not what it was formerly ; for it is not time and persons that make mens words differ , or not be in equallity to the word in Scripture , but the spirit from whence they flow ? And doth not all ordinances point out , or leade to that very end , that God and Man should be united in one spirit , that he that sanctifieth , and they who are sanctified , may be one ? And if any soule be so made one with God , who dare deny but all true Scripture is fulfilled in them , and that such soules have no need of any to teach them , because that anointing which they have received ▪ is able to teach them all things , 1 Iohn 2. 27. But I say no more to that , because the truth of what they say herein is so largely amplified in Scripture , except it be to poore blind iddeots , whose envy against others , have shut their eyes from seeing , and their hearts from understanding the Truth of Scripture . The Author of that Discourse , proceedeth still in questioning the light which is in these people ; and amongst the rest of his scandals east upon them , would make people beleeve , that these people deny the Scriptures , the which is a most false aspersion ; for there is not a people in England that is more conformable to the very outward requiring of Scripture , then these people , and that light within them doth leade them , and causeth them to act according to what the Scripture requireth in the practicall part thereof in their obedience , to which their very outward practice doth condemne all men in the Land , both religious and irreligious ; for they follow the words of our Saviour , where he saith , Take no thought for to morrow : And having Food and Rayment , therewith be content , &c. Mat. 6. 26. 27. And in mortifying their Sences and Members , they follow the command of the Apostle , to divers of the people he taught , which Rule he followed himselfe , 1 Cor. 9. 27. and yet this Author saith , They are possessed with an austere Devill , and denyes Scripture for so doing ; but let but a wise man judge , whether those who pretend Scripture , and talke of Scripture ; or those that practice Scripture , deny it most ; for every one that cryeth up Scripture with their Tongue , are not those that confesse Scripture ; but those are they that truely confesse it , that in their practice is conformable to it : for every one shall not enter into Heaven for talking of Scripture , and making discourses of God out of Scripture . nor that sayeth Lord , Lord ; but they that doe the Will of the Father . But it is no marvaile to me if these people be so cryed out against with all people , for their very outward life is a Witnesse against all sorts , both Formalists , and others ; For there is no difference between the Formalists , and men who are not conformed , for both are alike for pride and sensuality , and for the love of the world , and for reputation amongst men , all of them having hearts alike , in the worship of the god of the World ; onely the Formalists differ from the other in their head , by which they are carryed beyond the other into a faire seeming Forme , in which they worship God according to their good-thinking ; but yet their Forme will admit their hearts to worship the gods of the Heathen ; I may speak it with sadnesse of heart , seeing the truth hereof so clearely , and cannot deny , but all Formalists and unconformed ▪ are but hornes springing out of the same head of the Beast which John saw in his Revelation . Further , the light that is in these people , is not at all contrary to what the Scripture holdeth out in the Mystery , but the same being truely fulfilled in them they are made able to witnesse the truth in the Scripture , and no other way can any soule be a true witnesse of the truth of Scripture , but by having the same truely fulfilled in them ; for all other are but false witnesses , and speaketh but of it from what they have heard or received from others ; and these people is made able by the light which is in them , to witnesse the truth of the love of God made knowne to their soules , and of other of Gods dealing with them , and will not vary from Scripture , but owne it , and take it to witnesse the truth of what they doe declare to others . And I am sure , that many of the Priests in England can witnesse the truth of what I say , if their malice would but let them ; for the time hath been ( and not long since ) that some of the Priests made tryall of them , thinking to confute them , and make them appeare as erronious ; but it proved the contrary way : for not long had they dissoursed with them , but the Priests was strucken dumbe before them , and had not a word to say , but was forced to fly , like beaten Cockes ; in so much that the very vulgar people , shouted at the beaten Priests ; and some did averre , that they conceived , that no fewer then an hundred soules was convinced of the truth at that time : And yet these beaten Priests deviseth all wayes possible , to root out these people ; but they are but like the people , with whom Steven conversed , who was not able to resist the spirit he spake from , yet they stoned him to death , Acts 7. ●7 . &c. The Author of that Discourse , proceedeth about the exhaltation of Scripture , and sayes , whatsoever is essentiall to God , the same is appropriated to Scripture : the which saying , if well considered , is no lesse then blasphemy ; Whether was it God , or the Scripture , that Created the World , and all other things ? Or whether was it Scripture , or Christ , that suffered for the sinne of man ? or whether is it Scripture , or Christ , that reconcileth God to man ? or whether is it Scripture , or God , that maketh the Winde blow where it listeth , and the Raine to fall in its appointed season ? &c. If that be true which he saith , why is not every one sanctified , and made holy , that Heareth or Readeth Scripture ? Alas , when men have no other light , but the light of reason , to beare witnesse to the truth of Scripture , what soule mistakes doe they light on in medling with Scripture ; for as some being led by their wilde wandering wit , make lesse of the Scripture then it is ; so this Author is carried by that light , to make more of the Scripture then it is ; and to make good what he affirmeth , he quoteth Gal. 3. 8. where the Apostle is speaking of things in the dayes of Abraham , which was before any Scripture was Written ; and because the Apostle sayes , The Scripture foreseei●g such things ; therefore it is like God , who fore-seeth all things . But I would have the Author , and all others , to understand themselves better , and then they shall understand Scripture better . I would know of the Author , what Scripture it was that the Apostle meaneth of , when the Scripture which we have at this day , was not written many a yeare after the time of Abraham : but if the Author cannot tell , I will declare to him what Scripture that was ; The Word Scripture is two-fold , and to be understood in a two-fold sence ; the one Essencyall , the other Declarative : Now the Scripture Declarative , is written in Paper by men , and had a time for its beginning , and so there is a time for it to end ; but the Scripture Essenciall , hath its being in it selfe , and is Eternall , and shall have no end ; and this Scriture is the true Essenciall Word of God , or his Sonne Christ , by whom all things were Created ; and this Word was in the beginning , and this Word was God , and nothing was made or brought to passe , but by this Word , John 1. 1. 2. and this Word was the Wisedome of God by which he spoke , and acted , and fore-seeth things to come : and it was this Word , or Scripture that fore-saw , by which God fore-told Abraham things to come ; and this Word , or Scripture , and God , is all one . And the Apostle who knew the truth hereof ▪ divers times useth the Word Scripture ; for the Word God , when he is speaking of Gods fore-seeing , speaking , or acting , as may plainely appeare , where he saith , The Scripture hath concluded all under unbeleife , Gal. 3. 22. the which act , the Scripture Declarative never could doe ; but the Scripture or Word Essenciall , which is God : the truth of which is cleared by the same Apostle , speaking of the same subject , where he saith , That God had concluded all under unbeleife , &c. Rom. 11. 32. And further , in speaking of what the Scripture said to Pharaoh , Even for this purpose have I raysed thee up , &c , Rom. 9. 17. which saying was not spoken to Pharaoh , nor which worke was wrought upon him , by the Scripture Declarative ; but by the Scripture , or Word Essentiall , which was God himselfe , as may be seen in Exodus , 9. 16. where it was plainly held out , that it was God that spake these words , and wrought that worke ▪ upon Pharaoh . Now I would have that Author , and all other , to understand the true distinction between the Scripture , or Word Essentiall , and the Scripture or word Declarative ; for if they doe not , it is possible they will adde to the one , and diminish the other ; and then let them take heed of the curse that John speaketh of , at the end of the Revelation . But the Author goeth on in his Discourse in his blindnesse ▪ and all along attributeth that to the word Declarative , which is the proper worke of the word Essenciall ; and so brings to prove , what he ●aies the saying of the Apostle , in Heb. 4. 12. where it is said , The Word of God is quicke and powerfull , and sharper then any two edged Sword , &c. the which he falsly applyeth to the Scripture Declarative , which in it selfe is as dead as a stone , except the Essenciall word first move in the heart of man ; otherwise how is it , that all mens thoughts and intents is not discovered by Hearing , or Reading it ? but what the Apostle speaketh there , is the very worke of the Essenciall word , or God himselfe , as the following verse of the same Chapter will truely witnesse , where the Apostle doth more illustrate and lay open the property of the Essenciall word , and saith , Neither is there any creature that is not manifested in his sight , but all things are naked , and layd open before the eyes of him with whom we have to doe . And doth not God plainely declare by the Prophet , That it is he himselfe that searcheth the heart , and tryeth the reines , Jer. 17. 9. 10. O what blindnesse is amongst men ( yea amongst Professors also ) that they cannot see , nor be made beleeve what is the word of God , but in their blindnesse , taketh the Scripture Declarative , for the word of God ▪ for which they have neither example , nor command in that Scripture they doe so much Idolize , but onely as they have received that word by Tradition from their fore-Fathers , who was blinded in their understanding , and could not know any other word of God , and so gave that name to the Scriptures , because they were not acquainted with the Essenciall word within them , therefore their wit carryed them to Scripture without them ; and finding some saying in it which suited with their reason as such sayings as these ▪ They spake the Word of God with boldnesse , Acts 4 31. But the Word of God grew and multiplyed , Acts 12. 24. Not handling the Word of God deceitfully , Rom. 4. 2. Take the Word of God , which is the Sword of the Spirit , Ephes. 6. 17. It is sanctified by the Word of God and Prayer , 1 Tim. 4. 5. and divers other speaking in Scripture to that purpose , which all of them is the proper effects of the Eternall Word the Sonne of God , the which but few of our wise , learned Rabbies have knowne ; and therefore have they understood , that these sayings which held out the property of the Eternall , with its effects , to be the property of the Scripture and its effects . But when our Saviour ( who was the Word it selfe ) had occasion to use Scripture , he gave no such title to Scripture , but said , It is Written in such a Booke ; or Is it not Written in your Law , John 10. 34. And when the Apostles had occasion to speake out of the Scripture , did they not follow the same rules . And when the Apostle Peter would pronounce the Scripture by another name , he calleth it , A sure Word of Prophesie . But this epithite , the Word of God , was not at all given to it , untill the Eternall Word was hid , and man wanted the life , and power thereof , within him ; and then his wit found the Word of God without him ; and to these dayes our wise Rabbies understand it so ▪ and makes Fooles beleeve that what they say is true ; and under this pretence , they take to themselves the name of the Ministers of God , and that which they Preach is the Word of God ; when as they know not what the word of God is , but what they gather out of the Scriptures , which is nothing else but a Declaration of the word of God without a man ; but as for that which is the Word it selfe ( the which should live in them , and they in it , and what that word spake in them , to declare to others ) alas , they know not what it meaneth , but busyeth themselves to persecute and scandalize these , in whom the Essenciall word liveth , and they in it : And that Author being of the Disciples of thefe Rabbies , doth play his part on their side , and in his Discourse runns himselfe stone blinde about advancing Ordinances , and Scripture , to that end , for which they were never intended ; but if the blind leade the blind , they had best take heed of ditches . It would be too tedious , and draw out too long a Volume to answer that Author in every perticular of his blind Discourse , therefore I will passe by many things , the which if time would have permitted , I would have answered in order ; but what I have said already , though in briefe , will satisfie the wise ; and for the foolish , there is too much said already , for beate him in a morter , and his folly will not depart from him : But before I conclude , I cannot chuse but take notice of somewhat more he sayes concerning these People called Quakers ; where he telling of comming to these People in the power and evidence of Gods Word , and tels them of admiring Christ , holy walking with God ▪ subjection to Ordinances , Baptisme , Kirkefellowship ▪ &c. and they will tell you , ( or as he saith ) that uncleane spirit in them , will cry out , and witnesse against you , that you be but yet in the spirit of the world , and under the power of carnall reason , &c. It s true , they will do so to some people , and wise men cannot but admire to see such a spirit of discerning in many of these people , for an hypocrite can hardly beguile them , though he may come with never so faire pretences to try them ; and let an hyhocrite arme himselfe as strongly with the Scripture ( and his worship of God in Ordinances ) as possibly he can , and that light , or eternall word in them , will finde them out , and discover these to the very bottome : And I know for a truth , that no hypocrite is able to stand before them ; and I beleeve an hypocrite that once hath had discourse with them , dare not appeare before them the second time ; and indeed , they may the easilier discerne an hypocrite , when they themselves are delivered from that great evill , the which no doubt but many of them had in them , while they were in their pretended close walking with God , and in their admirings of a Christ without them , and hide-bound under a faire seeming Forme ; and the truth is , while men live in such a condition , they are not able to see how the Harlot is decked in them . And this Author seemeth to take it for a strange ( and delusive ) saying , That the people should say , that they pray alwayes ; and that they have the Baptisme of Fire ▪ and that they eate the Flesh and Blood of Christ continually , &c. Indeed I doe not marvaile at the Author for thinking so for I beleeve he little knoweth , or is acquainted with the mystery of these things , for I doubt he is too busie about these things without him , so that he is but little acquainted with the mystery of these things within him : But at one thing I marvaile in the Author , that he worshipping and idolizing the Scripture so much , and yet should be unacquainted with what is written in it ; or otherwise why is it , that the Scripture that he maketh no lesse then God should not reueale the truth of these sayings to him ; for if he doe but remember the Scripture , it commands us to Pray alwayes ; but no command in it for set times , and set Formes of Prayer . And for the Baptisme with Fire , it was the Promise of Christ , and was fore-told by John Baptist , Mat. 3. 11. And for eating and drinking the Body and Blood of Christ continually , that soule that doth not so , is in the captivity of death , and hath no life in it ; and there is no abiding or living in the word of God or Christ , but by eating his Flesh and drinking his Blood after that manner ; for he that eateth his Flesh , and drinketh his Blood in this manner , abideth in Christ , and Christ in him , John 6. 56. It is not the outward act of Baptisme , or the Bread and Wine , eating and drinking , that makes a Christian , or bringeth the soule to live in Christ , and Christ in it : no , no , these are typpicall things under this dispensation in which we live ; and they hold it out in the mystery , the dying with Christ , and the living with Christ : For as in the time of the Law , there was severall Ceremonies which poynted at the appearing of Christ in the Flesh ; so when he was in the Flesh , he left types of another nature , and these pointed at Christs appearing in spirit ; and as the types under the Law ended when Christ appeared in the Flesh ; so the types under the Gospel end , when Christ appeareth in the spirit . But none will beleeve the great Mystery herein , but such as have found the same truely fulfilled in them ; and yet those who have attained this Mystery , and speaketh thereof to the world , or to the out ▪ side religious , shall be accounted no lesse then Blasphemers because this crosseth their humane wisedome , by which they understand God and his way ; and many of those people is able to make good the truth of this Mystery in them , and witnesse the same by Scripture to ; yea ▪ and some of them will witnesse the same by signes and wonders to , if they be put to it : And yet this Author doth falsly accuse these people , saying . That they can give no Scripture account for what they hold out ; and doth falsly say , That they deny Scripture , when no people in the world doth answer the Scripture ( in its requiring ) more then they . Other false accusations I omit , because time will not give way to answer them ; for as he saith , The mary absurd , ridiculous practises of these Fantastickes ( as he calls them ) would be too much to relate ; so I say , to answer all his false accusations , would be too tedious . But as he goes on in his discourse , he lighteth on a great hole in their Coate , as he thinketh , viz. That they will not put off their Hats to any , no not to a Magistrate ; and where doth this Author finde in Scripture any command for so doing ; but if he minde Scripture well , he shall finde something to the contrary ▪ and that was a command of our Saviours ; who bad his Disciples , That they should salute no man by the way , Luke 10. 4. and for a Magistrate , or other men in Authority , what are they more then other men ; for if they would but well consider the originall root of Authority , they shall finde , that they have no just cause to look for more respect then other men ; for if sin had not bin brought out in the world , one man had not ruled over another : And the Scripture saith , the Devill brought sinne into the world , and sinne brought out Lawes , and Lawes brought out Authority ; but as for Magistrates , and men in Authority that are good men , these looke but for little honour of men , though there be an honour that is due to such ; but that honour consisteth not in putting off Hats to them , for if it had , the Scripture would have commanded such honour in some place of it . Likewise that Author findeth other great defects amongst these people , because they will not call men Rabbies and Sirs , and because they speake and write men Thou and Thee . I would know of the Author if he finde any command in Scripture for such Names , or to give such epithites to men ; Nay , is not the command of Scripture quite contrary ; For when our Saviour said , Call no man Father upon Earth , how can a man justly call another Master or Sir ? What man , but Heathen or Fooles ; dare take that name to him , seeing Christ gave in charge to his Disciples , that they should not take the name Master upon them , Mat. 23. 8. And what grounds or reasons can that Author shew , that men should be called Yee and You , seing all examples in Scripture , New and Old , calleth men by the name Thou and Thee ; yea , if he were never so great a one ; and if the word You or Yee be any honour , or respect , why will not that Author , and others , let God have that honour and respect also ? Nay , are not all these traditionall complements crept in amongst men in the time of darkenesse ? and how is the hearts of Fooles glewed to these Traditions ? yea , the very examples and commands in Scripture , is made voyde by vaine Traditions ; and yet these men who leave Traditions , and follow the example and command in Scripture , how are they mocked and scandalized for it ▪ and as this Author doth falsly accuse them , that they walke not according to Scripture ; but may not even a very Ideot be judge , whether they , or the Author and his Fellowes be the greater denyers of Scriptures : Nay , it is too plainely apparant , that the Author and his Fellowes are the denyers of Scripture , though they pretend or ▪ cry Scripture , Scripture , Scripture , but they will owne no more in Scripture , then will sute and serve to please their good-thinking , to patch up a Forme of Worship to their God , under which they may hide all their pride , and hypocrisie , and coveteous practises ; but where the example and command in Scripture is against these things , how little doe they heed it : O how well is Scripture liked , and how swiftly is the worship carried on , when it sutes with sence and reason ! but , O how harsh is Scripture , and the worship of spirit in the way of bearing the Crosse , of selfe-deniall : nay , away with that Scripture and Worship , that will part a man and his selfe , for that , for sure , shall have the name of madnesse , and delusion , The Author is judging these people , That they thinke the observing of these things , is a great Badge of their Profession ; but let 〈◊〉 thoughts be what they will of these things ▪ yet I will plainely tell that Author , or any other of his Fellowes , that to be brought to the profession of such things , will be found an hundred times more harder worke , then to be brought into Brother ▪ hood , or Kirke-fellowship , or to performe all holy duties ( so called ) in the same Fellowship ; for in Brother ▪ hood and Kirke-fellowship , and in the performing of all holy duties ( so called ) included therein , a man may keep his honour , prayse , pride , and reputation amongst men ; but the profession of the other will kill these ; and therefore no marvaile if Formes have so many favorites , and the other so few friends . Another thing I observe in the Authors Discourse is , where he is saying , That some of these people , through Gods mercy , have bin reduced , and turned again into Church-Communion , who have confessed , while they were in that way , they had no sence of God , &c. I would have the Author , and others , to know the truth of that , viz ▪ That those that joyneth with these people , with an hypocrites heart , cannot long continue in their way ; for there they finde but little to please their pride , or sensuality , or their wit and reason ; and God doth justly answer those , in not shewing his countenance to an hypocriticall heart ; and when such hypocrites can finde nothing amongst them that will please pride , and sensuality , then doe they start backe from them , for they know well enough where to be entertained , and get liberty for their sences , and keepe up their pride , &c. And where they may warme themselves at the fire of their owne kindling , and walke in the light of these sparkes , and have these to be called in ▪ comes of Christ into the soule , and where they may be Canonized with the name Saint , &c. may not the Author hereby see the great blindenesse of himselfe , and the rest of his formall Fellowes , that an hypocrite falling from these people , should amongst them be accounted a Saint ; for the truth is , Formes and Church-fellowship , is the very refuge of hypocrites ; but amongst the other , an hypocrite cannot long continue . It cannot be denyed , but at this day there is hypocrites amongst them ; but time will discover them , and they will fall off from amongst them ; but it maketh no matter , for those that fall off will help to make Church-fellowship up well enough . That Author proceedeth on in his Discourse , with an Advertisement to his Fellowes to blesse God for their faire Form and holy performances ; I make no doubt , but it would have pleased him well , if his Fellowes had met together upon his Advertisement , for two houres , and praysed God for the goodnesse of their faire Forme , much like the people , who cryed for two houres together , Great art thou O Diana of the Ephesians . The Author containing still his spirit of scandall and rayling , calleth these people Owles , and sayes , they dare not appeare where Church-fellowship is ; the which the very Priests and people in their naturalls will confute ; for they have appeared in open Congregations , and have confuted , and confounded the Priests in Preaching untruths to the people ; for which doing , it is not unknowne , that they have undergone long and tedious Imprisonments . Yea , these people dare appeare , and hath appeared in Publique Market Places , to declare against the sinnes of the people in these times ; for which doing , some of them have put their life in danger . And for other Church-fellowship , viz. the Congregaeed way , I I know not how one should devise to come to have the opportunity to appeare amongst them , they keep so secret ; except a man have got on the hypocrites habit , and make a friend of some of their Order to be admitted to appeare amongst them . He likewise sayes , they are bred in darke places ; what these darke places is he meaneth of , I cannot tell , except he meaneth in some place of the Land which is Hills or Dales , remote from the body of the Land , where oft times the worst of the Priests of Baall hath their habitations , and where Church-fellowship is not in fashion ; If these be the darke places he meaneth of , I would have him to know , it is no hard thing for God to raise up light in darkenesse , and to make more of his goodnesse and truth appeare to some in such places , then to those who live in Cities , great Townes , and Corporations , where oft-times , the great , or chiefe Priests of Baall , have their Places , because of fat Benefits , and have the good-thinking policy of making Congregations : But I would have the Author to remember , that when Christ appeared in the Flesh , that his naturall Parents , and the most upright People , lived the farthest off the Priests , and the Temple , and lived not in Cities and Corporations , or in the body of the Countrey , but in the Mountaines and Hilly part of the Countrey , and in little by-Places and Villages . The Author runns on still in his censorious scandalls , and sayes , These people have been either slighters of Ordinances , or slight under them ; great Duty-mungers , yet wanted the spirit of their Duties , &c. It s true , a man may live under Ordinances and be slight , and too loose under them ; but I warrant that soule for leaving the Ordinances , and such slight duties , for taking up that which is an hundred times of more weight in the performing : And for slighting of Ordinances , I know , when the spirit of judgement is come , which reproveth man of sinne , Righteousnesse and Judgement ( under which man is made truely to know himselfe ) it will make that soule truely to know the weakenesse of Ordinances , and outward Formes , and what Knavery lay in his heart hid under these ; and of how little helpe there is for him in these Ordinanees and Duties ; and when man is truely brought to know this , I beleeve he will but stay himselfe a little upon Ordinances and Duties , for there is no other worke for him to goe about ; and little will that soule care for the reproachfull speeches of Formalists . This Author is speaking of wanting the spirit of Duty , I would he were so wise as to know what spirit it is that is most frequent in duty , and I beleeve he should perceive it to be a Devill , hiding himselfe under the habit of an Angell , who can cunningly bring Promises to remembrance , and hath power to rayse false joy in the soule , out of these Promises ; and he can make Fooles beleeve , these be the in ▪ comes of Christ into the soule , and the soules leading out to Christ in the Promises ; and if any under Ordinanees and Duty once , be possessed with this spirit , it is hard for any to make them beleeve otherwise ; and these I beleeve will not be sloathfull in Duty , or slight Ordinances , because of such good feeding , as they imagine they get thereby ; for their Urim and their Thummim ▪ answers them as they would have it . I will meddle no more at present with answering the rest of his scandalls , but leave the thing to God , who I hope in his time will cleare his owne truth , and make it to flourish in despight of all opposers . Yet one thing I commend in that Author , viz. That he wishes his Fellowes , to worke out their salvation with feare and trembling ; If he have understood the truth of that saying , I know he cannot but confesse , that he hath wished all his Fellowes to become Quakers , for no People in the Land hath had that saying more fully fulfilled in them , then these People , whom all Formalists , and almost all People else , despise : But let the Author , and all others , take it for granted , that they shall see the time , that they shall be made to tremble and quake , and that they shall not evade it , though at present they blesse themselves from such a thing ; and then faire Formes , and fine Apparell , and holy dutie ( so called ) riches , prayse , and reputation , sensuality , pleasures , &c. shall but little prevaile , but be dashed in pieces , and the men who is found alive in these things ; but happy is that soule that is made truely acquainted with the evill that is in himselfe , and who hath taken up the Crosse of Christ , and followeth after him in the dayly denying and forsaking himselfe ; and who ever thou art that doth that , I wish the God , even the God of Gods , to be with thee in thy worke , that thou mayest be strengthened both inward and outward , untill thy selfe be Crucified , and made dead upon that Cro se , so that thy soule may attaine to the perfection of the Resurrection of the Dead . July the 16. 1653. Geo : Baiteman . FINIS .