A relation of some of the most material matters that passed in a publick dispute at Thriploe in Cambridgeshire the 15th day of the 2d month 1676 between Francis Holdcraft and Joseph Odde his assistant, both Presbyterian priests, on the one party, and Samuel Cater with some others of the Friends of truth called Quakers
         Cater, Samuel, d. 1711.
      
       
         
           1676
        
      
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         46107
         
           
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             A relation of some of the most material matters that passed in a publick dispute at Thriploe in Cambridgeshire the 15th day of the 2d month 1676 between Francis Holdcraft and Joseph Odde his assistant, both Presbyterian priests, on the one party, and Samuel Cater with some others of the Friends of truth called Quakers
             Cater, Samuel, d. 1711.
             Holcroft, Francis, 1629?-1693.
             Odde, Joseph.
             Webb, John, 17th cent.
             Baker, Jacob.
          
           8 p.
           
             s.n.,
             [S.l :
             1676]
          
           
             Caption title.
             Signed: S. Cater, J. Webb, J.B.
             Reproduction of original in the Harvard University Library.
          
        
      
    
     
       
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           A
           Relation
           of
           some
           of
           the
           most
           material
           Matters
           that
           passed
           in
           a
           Publick
           Dispute
           at
           Thriploe
           in
           Cambridge-shire
           the
           15th
           day
           of
           the
           2d
           Month
           1676.
           between
           Francis
           Holdcraft
           ,
           and
           Joseph
           Odde
           his
           Assistant
           ,
           both
           Presbyterian
           Priests
           ,
           on
           the
           one
           Party
           ,
           and
           Samuel
           Cater
           ,
           with
           some
           others
           of
           the
           Friends
           of
           Truth
           called
           Quakers
           .
        
         
           I
           The
           aforesaid
           Samuel
           ;
           being
           at
           a
           Meeting
           of
           our
           Friends
           in
           that
           Country
           ,
           where
           there
           were
           some
           told
           me
           of
           the
           Lyes
           ,
           Slanders
           ,
           and
           Reproaches
           that
           were
           frequently
           vented
           and
           cast
           upon
           us
           the
           people
           of
           God
           ,
           called
           Quakers
           ,
           by
           this
           above-named
           
             Francis
             Holdcraft
          
           ,
           and
           his
           Abettor
           
             Joseph
             Odde
          
           ,
           (
           that
           is
           to
           say
           )
           that
           the
           Quakers
           are
           deceivers
           ,
           and
           that
           they
           did
           not
           believe
           in
           the
           True
           Christ
           the
           Messiah
           and
           Saviour
           of
           the
           World
           ,
           and
           that
           they
           Preached
           another
           Jesus
           ,
           and
           not
           the
           True
           Jesus
           ,
           and
           that
           they
           were
           Antechrists
           ;
           and
           of
           this
           they
           made
           their
           boast
           ,
           that
           they
           would
           prove
           the
           same
           to
           any
           of
           our
           Faces
           ,
           if
           we
           would
           or
           durst
           come
           to
           that
           Town
           ;
           upon
           the
           hearing
           of
           which
           ,
           for
           the
           Truth
           sake
           ,
           for
           which
           the
           Lord
           hath
           called
           me
           to
           bear
           Testimony
           thereunto
           ,
           and
           for
           the
           clearing
           of
           the
           Innocency
           of
           those
           that
           believe
           therein
           ,
           and
           are
           led
           and
           guided
           thereby
           ,
           which
           I
           knew
           they
           had
           most
           grosly
           abused
           ,
           I
           was
           made
           free
           in
           the
           fear
           of
           the
           Lord
           to
           appoint
           a
           Meeting
           at
           that
           Town
           of
           Thriploe
           ,
           and
           give
           notice
           of
           it
           seven
           days
           before
           ;
           in
           which
           time
           I
           desired
           that
           the
           Persons
           above-named
           might
           have
           timely
           notice
           of
           it
           ;
           which
           was
           done
           ,
           that
           so
           they
           might
           prove
           that
           to
           our
           faces
           if
           they
           could
           ,
           which
           they
           had
           said
           of
           us
           behind
           our
           backs
           ,
           or
           receive
           reproofs
           for
           their
           unfruitful
           works
           of
           darkness
           .
           So
           when
           I
           with
           some
           Friends
           were
           come
           to
           the
           Town
           ,
           and
           were
           at
           a
           Friends
           house
           ,
           there
           was
           word
           brought
           to
           us
           ,
           that
           
             F.
             H.
          
           was
           come
           to
           Town
           also
           ,
           and
           that
           he
           thought
           it
           not
           so
           convenient
           to
           come
           to
           our
           publick
           Meeting
           ,
           but
           rather
           desired
           to
           speak
           with
           three
           or
           four
           of
           us
           more
           privately
           to
           discourse
           out
           the
           matters
           in
           Controversie
           between
           us
           :
           then
           I
           sent
           him
           word
           ;
           that
           he
           had
           reviled
           us
           ,
           and
           our
           Principles
           openly
           ,
           and
           I
           did
           expect
           that
           he
           should
           come
           as
           openly
           ,
           as
           he
           had
           promised
           ,
           to
           prove
           what
           he
           had
           said
           against
           us
           ,
           or
           else
           to
           receive
           shame
           for
           his
           work
           ;
           and
           the
           time
           of
           day
           was
           now
           come
           to
           go
           to
           the
           place
           
           which
           was
           appointed
           for
           the
           Meeting
           ,
           where
           we
           did
           intend
           to
           go
           ,
           and
           desired
           that
           he
           might
           meet
           us
           there
           ;
           but
           if
           they
           would
           not
           come
           to
           us
           ,
           then
           we
           were
           resolved
           to
           come
           to
           them
           after
           the
           Meeting
           ,
           and
           we
           being
           gathered
           together
           ,
           and
           waiting
           upon
           the
           Lord
           some
           time
           before
           they
           came
           ,
           there
           was
           a
           Friend
           declaring
           the
           Truth
           to
           the
           people
           ;
           when
           
             F.
             H.
          
           came
           to
           the
           door
           ,
           and
           said
           ,
           That
           if
           he
           would
           not
           hold
           his
           peace
           ,
           he
           would
           not
           come
           in
           ;
           but
           the
           Friend
           having
           freedom
           ,
           he
           did
           soon
           leave
           ,
           and
           then
           he
           came
           in
           :
           I
           stood
           up
           and
           spake
           a
           few
           words
           unto
           the
           people
           by
           way
           of
           Exhortation
           ,
           That
           all
           might
           be
           sober
           and
           weighty
           in
           their
           minds
           ,
           that
           so
           they
           might
           be
           the
           better
           prepared
           to
           give
           a
           right
           Judgment
           of
           what
           might
           pass
           between
           us
           :
           —
           Then
           
             F.
             H.
          
           said
           ,
           If
           I
           would
           not
           hold
           my
           Tongue
           ,
           he
           would
           be
           gone
           .
        
         
           
             John
             Webb
          
           Answered
           ,
           Be
           patient
           a
           little
           &
           hear
           ,
           and
           if
           we
           speak
           any
           thing
           contrary
           to
           Truth
           ,
           thou
           mayst
           judge
           us
           out
           of
           our
           own
           Mouths
           .
        
         
           
             Francis
             Holdcraft
             .
          
           
             I
             will
             have
             no
             patience
             .
          
        
         
           
             Samuel
             Cater
             .
          
           
             Then
             thou
             art
             unfit
             to
             be
             a
             Minister
             of
             Christ
             ;
             but
             however
             
               F.
               H.
            
             I
             would
             not
             have
             thee
             go
             away
             yet
             ,
             for
             we
             do
             expect
             that
             thou
             shouldst
             perform
             what
             thou
             hast
             promised
             ,
             if
             thou
             canst
             ;
             that
             is
             ,
             to
             prove
             us
             deceivers
             ,
             and
             thou
             hast
             said
             we
             deny
             the
             True
             Christ
             ,
             and
             that
             we
             Preach
             a
             false
             ,
             and
             not
             the
             Messiah
             the
             Saviour
             of
             the
             World
             ;
             and
             this
             is
             the
             business
             thou
             hast
             promised
             to
             do
             .
          
        
         
           
             F.
             H.
             
          
           
             And
             this
             I
             shall
             do
             by
             the
             help
             of
             Almighty
             God.
             
          
        
         
           
             F.
             H.
             
          
           
             Is
             your
             name
             
               Samuel
               Cater
            
             ,
             and
             are
             you
             a
             Quaker
             ?
          
        
         
           
             S.
             C.
             
          
           
             My
             name
             is
             so
             ,
             and
             I
             own
             ,
             and
             have
             unity
             with
             all
             the
             honest
             and
             upright-hearted
             people
             of
             God
             ,
             called
             Quakers
             .
          
        
         
           
             F.
             H.
             
          
           
             But
             do
             you
             own
             the
             Quakers
             Principles
             ?
             let
             me
             know
             that
             ,
             that
             I
             may
             have
             a
             foundation
             to
             stand
             upon
             in
             our
             Discourse
             .
          
        
         
           
             S.
             C
             ,
          
           
             What
             Principle
             is
             it
             that
             thou
             art
             against
             that
             we
             hold
             ,
             Repeat
             it
             ,
             and
             I
             shall
             give
             thee
             an
             Answer
             ?
          
        
         
           
             F.
             H.
             
          
           
             Do
             you
             own
             the
             Quakers
             Principles
             .
          
        
         
           
             J.
             B.
             
          
           
             Another
             Friend
             standing
             by
             said
             ,
             there
             is
             a
             Book
             of
             ours
             called
             
               Truths
               Principles
            
             any
             one
             therein
             contained
             we
             will
             own
             ,
             instance
             which
             you
             will.
             
          
        
         
           
             S.
             C.
             
          
           
             As
             to
             answer
             to
             thee
             in
             short
             ,
             that
             I
             own
             all
             that
             are
             published
             as
             the
             Quakers
             Principles
             I
             shall
             not
             do
             ;
             for
             this
             reason
             ;
             there
             are
             envious
             and
             evil-minded
             men
             have
             forged
             Principles
             ,
             and
             called
             them
             the
             Quakers
             to
             abuse
             us
             ,
             and
             to
             present
             us
             ,
             and
             our
             Principles
             
             odious
             ;
             and
             therefore
             seeing
             thou
             wilt
             not
             tell
             us
             what
             Principle
             of
             ours
             thou
             art
             against
             ,
             I
             shall
             here
             declare
             the
             universal
             Principle
             ,
             that
             I
             with
             the
             rest
             of
             my
             Brethren
             own
             ,
             and
             turn
             people
             unto
             ;
             that
             is
             ,
             
               Jesus
               Christ
               is
               the
               True
               Light
               ,
               that
               Lighteth
               every
               man
               that
               cometh
               into
               the
               World
               ,
               and
               that
               so
               many
               as
               love
               this
               Light
               ,
               and
               bring
               their
               deeds
               unto
               it
               ,
               and
               are
               led
               and
               guided
               by
               it
               ,
               are
               saved
            
             ;
             and
             
               all
               that
               disobey
               it
               ,
               are
               condemned
               by
               it
               .
            
             This
             is
             our
             Principle
             ,
             What
             sayst
             thou
             to
             it
             ?
          
        
         
           
             F.
             H.
             
          
           
             I
             say
             to
             affirm
             that
             every
             one
             is
             enlightned
             with
             the
             Light
             of
             Christ
             ,
             is
             Cursed
             Idolatry
             .
          
        
         
           
             S.
             C.
             
          
           
             Then
             I
             say
             Francis
             ,
             the
             Pit
             that
             thou
             hast
             digged
             for
             the
             Quakers
             ,
             thou
             art
             fallen
             into
             thy self
             this
             day
             in
             the
             sight
             of
             all
             that
             have
             an
             Eye
             to
             see
             ,
             and
             an
             Ear
             to
             hear
             ;
             for
             I
             'le
             prove
             by
             the
             Scriptures
             of
             Truth
             ,
             that
             this
             Lord
             Jesus
             Christ
             ,
             
               that
               Lighteth
               every
               Man
               that
               comes
               into
               the
               World
               ,
            
             is
             
               the
               Lamb
               of
               God
               that
               takes
               away
               the
               sins
               of
               the
               World
               :
            
             See
             John
             1
             7
             ,
             8
             ,
             9.
             
             &
             8.
             12.
             
             &
             29.
             
          
        
         
           
             F.
             H.
             
          
           
             That
             every
             one
             is
             enlightned
             ,
             I
             grant
             ;
             but
             not
             with
             the
             Light
             of
             Christ
             .
          
        
         
           
             S.
             C.
             
          
           
             What
             is
             it
             then
             that
             they
             are
             enlightned
             with
             ?
          
        
         
           
             F.
             H.
             
          
           
             A
             Creature
             .
          
        
         
           
             S.
             C.
             
          
           
             What
             kind
             of
             Creature
             is
             it
             ,
             a
             Man
             or
             a
             Beast
             ?
             but
             in
             this
             he
             answered
             nothing
             ,
             and
             in
             this
             as
             well
             as
             many
             other
             things
             he
             was
             manifest
             to
             be
             in
             great
             Confusion
             ,
             and
             in
             his
             Knowledge
             to
             be
             more
             bruitish
             than
             a
             Beast
             ,
             to
             call
             that
             a
             Creature
             ,
             which
             the
             Scriptures
             of
             Truth
             calls
             the
             Life
             of
             God
             ,
             and
             says
             it
             is
             
               the
               Light
               of
               Men
            
             :
             Read
             John
             1.
             1
             ,
             2
             ,
             3
             ,
             4.
             
          
        
         
           
             F.
             H.
             
          
           
             I
             will
             prove
             that
             the
             Quakers
             deny
             the
             Man
             Christ
             Jesus
             ,
             who
             is
             now
             at
             the
             Right
             Hand
             of
             his
             Father
             in
             the
             Highest
             Heaven
             ,
             and
             hold
             forth
             another
             Christ
             ,
             another
             Gospel
             ,
             another
             Spirit
             .
          
        
         
           
             S.
             C.
             
          
           
             Well
             ,
             go
             on
             and
             do
             it
             if
             thou
             canst
             ,
             we
             ask
             no
             favour
             at
             thy
             hand
             .
             By
             this
             time
             his
             Brother
             
               Joseph
               Odde
            
             came
             in
             ,
             the
             other
             Priest
             ,
             saying
             to
             him
             in
             a
             fauning
             flattering
             manner
             ,
             Sir
             ,
             I
             am
             glad
             to
             see
             you
             here
             this
             day
             about
             so
             good
             a
             work
             as
             this
             is
             ;
             but
             to
             me
             and
             the
             rest
             of
             my
             Friends
             he
             spake
             revilingly
             ,
             and
             told
             us
             we
             were
             a
             Generation
             of
             Vipers
             ,
             and
             that
             they
             would
             prove
             us
             so
             to
             be
             before
             they
             went
             from
             thence
             .
          
        
         
           
             F.
             H.
             
          
           
             Do
             you
             own
             the
             Man
             Christ
             Jesus
             ,
             body
             flesh
             and
             bone
             ,
             to
             be
             at
             the
             Right
             Hand
             of
             his
             Father
             in
             the
             Highest
             Heaven
             ,
             yonder
             ,
             yonder
             above
             the
             Stars
             ,
             pointing
             upward
             with
             his
             Hands
             and
             Eyes
             .
          
        
         
           
           
             S.
             C.
             
          
           
             The
             True
             Christ
             I
             own
             ,
             and
             believe
             in
             the
             same
             that
             the
             Prophet
             prophecied
             of
             ,
             and
             the
             Apostles
             Preached
             Salvation
             in
             his
             name
             ,
             and
             am
             ready
             to
             render
             a
             reason
             of
             the
             hope
             that
             is
             in
             me
             ,
             when
             it
             is
             my
             place
             so
             to
             do
             ;
             but
             Francis
             it
             is
             not
             thy
             business
             to
             Catechise
             me
             at
             this
             time
             ;
             but
             to
             prove
             that
             we
             deny
             the
             True
             Christ
             ;
             this
             thou
             hast
             promised
             to
             do
             ,
             and
             I
             expect
             thou
             shouldst
             do
             it
             ,
             or
             else
             acknowledge
             thy
             error
             .
          
        
         
           
             F.
             H.
             
          
           
             I
             said
             as
             much
             ,
             you
             dare
             not
             own
             the
             True
             Christ
             ,
             if
             you
             do
             say
             you
             do
             .
          
        
         
           
             J.
             O.
             
          
           
             There
             ,
             hold
             him
             there
             .
          
        
         
           
             S.
             C.
             
          
           
             The
             True
             Christ
             I
             own
             ,
             but
             thy
             Carnal
             Imaginations
             of
             him
             I
             deny
             ;
             but
             this
             I
             say
             ,
             we
             are
             upon
             the
             defensive
             part
             ;
             thou
             hast
             said
             we
             deny
             Christ
             ,
             it
             is
             on
             thy
             part
             to
             prove
             it
             .
          
        
         
           
             F.
             H.
             
          
           
             Urged
             the
             like
             question
             again
             ;
             but
             never
             took
             in
             hand
             ,
             nor
             went
             about
             to
             prove
             what
             he
             had
             promised
             .
          
        
         
           
             S.
             C.
             
          
           
             To
             the
             people
             I
             am
             not
             ashamed
             ,
             nor
             afraid
             to
             confess
             my
             Faith
             and
             belief
             concerning
             Jesus
             Christ
             ,
             as
             this
             man
             would
             suggest
             into
             our
             minds
             ,
             and
             make
             you
             believe
             ;
             but
             the
             reason
             yet
             why
             I
             have
             not
             done
             it
             is
             ,
             because
             it
             's
             not
             my
             business
             at
             this
             time
             ;
             we
             are
             accused
             by
             this
             man
             to
             deny
             Christ
             ,
             and
             he
             saith
             he
             will
             prove
             it
             ,
             it
             is
             his
             place
             so
             to
             do
             if
             he
             can
             ;
             and
             his
             asking
             me
             whether
             I
             own
             Christ
             ,
             implys
             as
             much
             as
             this
             ,
             that
             he
             does
             not
             know
             whether
             we
             own
             him
             ,
             or
             deny
             him
             ;
             so
             that
             he
             hath
             done
             unjustly
             by
             us
             ,
             and
             unwisely
             by
             himself
             ,
             in
             going
             to
             report
             that
             we
             deny
             the
             True
             Christ
             ,
             behind
             our
             backs
             ;
             and
             now
             we
             call
             him
             in
             question
             before
             our
             faces
             :
             Instead
             of
             proving
             of
             it
             ,
             he
             asks
             us
             whether
             we
             own
             him
             or
             deny
             him
             ;
             which
             question
             would
             have
             been
             more
             seasonable
             ,
             and
             more
             honest
             ,
             to
             have
             been
             asked
             us
             before
             he
             had
             thus
             openly
             reproached
             us
             ,
             and
             slandered
             us
             ;
             for
             it
             appears
             he
             hath
             said
             that
             of
             us
             ,
             which
             he
             cannot
             prove
             ;
             and
             therefore
             must
             return
             again
             upon
             himself
             ,
             as
             the
             raiser
             ,
             or
             at
             least
             maintainer
             of
             these
             false
             reports
             ;
             and
             he
             must
             ,
             till
             he
             can
             clear
             himself
             of
             these
             lyes
             and
             slanders
             ,
             which
             he
             so
             frequently
             vends
             out
             of
             his
             mouth
             ,
             and
             casts
             upon
             the
             Innocent
             ,
             be
             numbred
             amongst
             the
             Lyers
             for
             the
             Lake
             ,
             who
             are
             in
             the
             Steps
             which
             the
             Prophet
             speaks
             of
             ;
             report
             ,
             and
             we
             will
             report
             it
             .
          
        
         
           
             F.
             H.
             
          
           
             Still
             balled
             and
             call'd
             out
             ,
             whether
             I
             owned
             the
             True
             Christ
             ?
          
        
         
           
             S.
             C.
             
          
           
             For
             the
             sake
             of
             the
             people
             that
             are
             here
             ,
             I
             do
             say
             ,
             that
             the
             same
             Lord
             Jesus
             Christ
             which
             the
             Scriptures
             Testifie
             of
             ,
             I
             believe
             in
             ,
             and
             expect
             Salvation
             by
             ,
             and
             in
             no
             other
             ;
             that
             is
             to
             say
             ,
             the
             Christ
             
             of
             God
             that
             was
             born
             of
             the
             Virgin
             Mary
             ,
             and
             was
             Crucified
             by
             the
             High-Priests
             ,
             and
             envious
             ones
             ,
             and
             was
             raised
             by
             the
             power
             of
             God
             ,
             and
             Ascended
             far
             above
             all
             Heavens
             ,
             and
             is
             at
             the
             Right
             Hand
             of
             God
             ;
             and
             is
             also
             knocking
             at
             every
             ones
             door
             for
             an
             entrance
             into
             their
             Hearts
             ,
             that
             he
             might
             dwell
             in
             and
             amongst
             them
             .
          
        
         
           
             F.
             H.
             
          
           
             Then
             cryed
             out
             to
             the
             people
             ,
             this
             is
             a
             Cheat
             ,
             this
             is
             to
             blind
             the
             people
             .
          
        
         
           
             S.
             C.
             
          
           
             How
             is
             it
             a
             Cheat
             ,
             I
             speak
             as
             I
             do
             believe
             ,
             and
             my
             words
             are
             according
             to
             the
             Scripture
             ?
          
        
         
           
             F.
             H.
             
          
           
             You
             do
             not
             believe
             as
             you
             say
             .
          
        
         
           
             S.
             C.
             
          
           
             How
             dost
             thou
             know
             I
             do
             not
             believe
             as
             I
             say
             ?
          
        
         
           
             F.
             H.
             
          
           
             I
             can
             prove
             out
             of
             the
             Quakers
             Books
             ,
             that
             you
             do
             not
             believe
             as
             you
             say
             .
          
        
         
           
             S.
             C.
             
          
           
             Shew
             us
             that
             Book
             of
             ours
             ,
             that
             says
             we
             deny
             the
             True
             Christ
             :
          
           
             But
             none
             he
             could
             shew
             us
             .
          
        
         
           
             S.
             C.
             
          
           
             I
             say
             again
             ,
             the
             same
             Jesus
             in
             whose
             name
             the
             Lame
             Man
             was
             made
             whole
             ,
             that
             Peter
             and
             John
             bare
             Testimony
             to
             ,
             (
             before
             them
             that
             Crucified
             him
             )
             in
             the
             name
             of
             
               Jesus
               Christ
            
             of
             Nazareth
             ;
             doth
             this
             man
             stand
             before
             you
             whole
             this
             day
             ;
             
               This
               is
               the
               Stone
               ,
               that
               is
               set
               at
               naught
               by
               you
               Builders
               ,
               and
               is
               now
               become
               the
               head
               of
               the
               Corner
               :
            
             I
             say
             ,
             in
             this
             Christ
             ,
             I
             with
             the
             rest
             of
             my
             Brethren
             believe
             ,
             and
             hope
             for
             Salvation
             ,
             and
             in
             no
             other
             name
             or
             thing
             whotsoever
             .
          
           
             Then
             there
             was
             one
             called
             to
             us
             ,
             that
             we
             might
             have
             some
             discourse
             concerning
             Election
             and
             Reprobation
             ;
             for
             these
             Men
             had
             declared
             before
             the
             people
             ,
             that
             some
             Children
             were
             in
             a
             state
             of
             Damnation
             before
             they
             were
             born
             ;
             about
             which
             some
             people
             were
             dissatisfied
             that
             heard
             them
             .
          
           
             Then
             
               Joseph
               Odde
            
             desired
             to
             take
             the
             matter
             in
             hand
             .
          
        
         
           
             J.
             O.
             
          
           
             spake
             to
             this
             purpose
             ,
             you
             do
             not
             understand
             neither
             the
             righteousness
             ,
             nor
             the
             sin
             as
             it
             is
             in
             Gods
             account
             .
          
        
         
           
             S.
             C.
             
          
           
             Wherein
             do
             we
             not
             understand
             ?
          
        
         
           
             J.
             O.
             
          
           
             Do
             you
             not
             acknowledge
             that
             all
             men
             fell
             in
             Adam
             .
          
        
         
           
             S.
             C.
             
          
           
             I
             do
             acknowledge
             according
             to
             the
             Scriptures
             ,
             in
             Adam
             all
             sinned
             ;
             which
             was
             and
             is
             the
             fall
             from
             God.
             
          
        
         
           
             J.
             O.
             
          
           
             This
             Adam
             represents
             all
             men
             ,
             so
             that
             in
             him
             all
             are
             included
             ,
             as
             if
             there
             were
             but
             one
             in
             all
             .
          
        
         
           
             S.
             C.
             
          
           
             
               The
               Apostle
               says
            
             ,
             As
             was
             the
             offence
             ,
             so
             also
             was
             the
             free
             gift
             ;
             and
             as
             in
             Adam
             all
             dyed
             ,
             so
             in
             Christ
             all
             comes
             to
             be
             made
             alive
             again
             ,
             Rom.
             5.
             18.
             
          
        
         
           
           
             J.
             O.
             
          
           
             All
             fell
             in
             Adam
             ,
             and
             you
             have
             granted
             that
             all
             sinned
             in
             him
             ;
             and
             therefore
             Children
             while
             they
             are
             in
             the
             Womb
             ,
             before
             they
             are
             born
             ,
             so
             soon
             as
             they
             have
             life
             ,
             and
             are
             a
             Living
             Soul
             ,
             they
             are
             guilty
             of
             Original
             sin
             ,
             and
             are
             Vessels
             of
             Wrath
             ,
             and
             for
             destruction
             .
          
        
         
           
             S.
             C.
             
          
           
             
               I
               'le
               prove
               this
               to
               be
               false
               Doctrine
               ;
               and
               contrary
               to
               the
               mind
               and
               will
               of
               God
               revealed
               in
               the
               Scriptures
               of
               Truth
               ;
               for
               the
               Lord
               said
               by
               the
               Prophet
            
             Ezekiel
             18.
             
             
               Read
               from
               the
               beginning
               onward
               ,
               that
            
             Proverb
             shall
             not
             be
             used
             in
             Israel
             ,
             saying
             ,
             the
             Fathers
             have
             eaten
             sower
             Grapes
             ,
             and
             the
             Childrens
             Teeth
             are
             set
             on
             edge
             ;
             but
             as
             the
             Soul
             of
             the
             Father
             is
             mine
             ,
             the
             Soul
             of
             the
             Son
             is
             mine
             also
             ;
             the
             same
             Soul
             that
             sins
             shall
             die
             .
             Jer.
             13.
             30.
             
          
        
         
           
             J.
             O.
             
          
           
             But
             death
             Reigned
             from
             Adam
             to
             Moses
             ,
             will
             you
             not
             grant
             that
             ?
          
        
         
           
             S.
             C.
             
          
           
             Yes
             ,
             over
             them
             that
             had
             sinned
             ;
             and
             therefore
             thou
             must
             prove
             Children
             to
             be
             sinners
             before
             they
             are
             born
             ,
             (
             which
             thou
             and
             all
             thy
             Brethren
             can
             never
             do
             )
             or
             else
             thou
             canst
             not
             prove
             them
             damned
             .
          
        
         
           
             J.
             O.
             
          
           
             Death
             Reigned
             from
             Adam
             to
             Moses
             over
             all
             men
             ,
             and
             I
             will
             prove
             a
             Child
             a
             Man
             before
             it
             is
             born
             ;
             and
             therefore
             guilty
             of
             sin
             before
             it
             is
             born
             .
          
        
         
           
             S.
             C.
             
          
           
             Prove
             that
             if
             thou
             canst
             ;
             People
             I
             desire
             you
             all
             to
             be
             still
             ,
             and
             let
             us
             hear
             how
             
               Joseph
               Odde
            
             will
             prove
             a
             Child
             a
             Man
             before
             it
             is
             born
             ,
             by
             plain
             Scripture
             ,
             for
             no
             other
             proof
             we
             will
             accept
             of
             .
          
        
         
           
             J.
             O.
             
          
           
             
               Christ
               says
            
             ,
             A
             Woman
             hath
             sorrow
             ,
             because
             her
             hour
             is
             come
             ;
             but
             when
             she
             is
             delivered
             ,
             she
             remembers
             no
             more
             her
             pain
             ,
             for
             joy
             that
             a
             Man
             is
             born
             into
             the
             World.
             
          
        
         
           
             S.
             C.
             
          
           
             This
             is
             no
             proof
             ;
             for
             Christ
             does
             not
             say
             that
             it
             was
             a
             Man
             before
             it
             was
             born
             .
          
        
         
           
             F.
             H.
             
          
           
             
               Children
               are
               sinners
               before
               they
               are
               born
               ;
               for
            
             David
             says
             ,
             I
             was
             shapen
             in
             iniquity
             ,
             and
             in
             sin
             hath
             my
             Mother
             Conceived
             me
             .
          
        
         
           
             S.
             C.
             
          
           
             Whether
             was
             the
             sin
             in
             the
             Mother
             ,
             or
             in
             the
             Child
             ?
             for
             Christ
             speaks
             of
             the
             state
             of
             a
             little
             Child
             to
             be
             happy
             ,
             
               for
               of
               such
               is
               the
               Kingdom
               of
               Heaven
            
             ;
             and
             you
             say
             some
             Children
             are
             for
             Hell
             and
             Destruction
             ,
             which
             is
             a
             damnable
             Doctrine
             ,
             and
             altogether
             contrary
             to
             the
             Scriptures
             ,
             and
             to
             the
             mind
             of
             God
             revealed
             therein
             ;
             which
             says
             ,
             God
             would
             have
             all
             to
             be
             saved
             ,
             and
             come
             to
             the
             knowledge
             of
             the
             Truth
             ;
             and
             therefore
             made
             none
             for
             destruction
             ,
             but
             Mans
             destruction
             is
             of
             himself
             ,
             for
             want
             of
             receiving
             and
             obeying
             of
             Christ
             ,
             the
             Son
             of
             his
             Love
             ,
             who
             is
             come
             a
             
               Light
               into
               the
               World
               ,
               that
               all
               Men
               through
               him
               might
               believe
               ,
            
             John
             1.
             7.
             
          
        
         
           
           
             F.
             H.
             
          
           
             There
             is
             none
             shall
             be
             saved
             but
             such
             as
             are
             elected
             .
          
        
         
           
             S.
             C.
             
          
           
             You
             are
             strangers
             to
             that
             election
             ,
             which
             hold
             ,
             that
             God
             hath
             made
             one
             man
             for
             Salvation
             ,
             and
             another
             for
             destruction
             ,
             as
             they
             are
             the
             Workmanship
             of
             his
             own
             Hands
             ;
             But
             Francis
             ,
             I
             ask
             thee
             this
             question
             ,
             Whether
             thou
             thy self
             be
             one
             of
             these
             elect
             thou
             speakest
             of
             ?
          
        
         
           
             F.
             H.
             
          
           
             Yes
             I
             am
             .
          
        
         
           
             S.
             C.
             
          
           
             And
             how
             camest
             thou
             to
             be
             so
             ?
          
        
         
           
             F.
             H.
             
          
           
             By
             the
             free
             Grace
             of
             God.
             
          
        
         
           
             S.
             C.
             
          
           
             And
             doth
             not
             this
             same
             Grace
             appear
             unto
             all
             men
             ,
             for
             the
             saving
             and
             electing
             of
             all
             ,
             as
             it
             doth
             unto
             thee
             ?
          
        
         
           
             F.
             H.
             
          
           
             No
             ,
             I
             deny
             that
             .
          
        
         
           
             S.
             C.
             
          
           
             I
             'le
             prove
             by
             the
             Scripture
             that
             it
             does
             ,
             People
             look
             in
             your
             Bibles
             ,
             and
             look
             into
             Titus
             2.
             11.
             and
             you
             may
             read
             it
             as
             I
             say
             .
          
        
         
           
             F.
             H.
             
          
           
             I
             will
             Read
             it
             my self
             .
          
        
         
           
             S.
             C.
             
          
           
             Do
             so
             .
          
        
         
           
             F.
             H.
             
          
           
             
               Read
               thus
            
             ,
             The
             Grace
             of
             God
             that
             brought
             Salvation
             ,
             hath
             appeared
             unto
             Men.
             
          
        
         
           
             S.
             C.
             
          
           
             Thou
             Readst
             wrong
             ▪
             and
             takes
             from
             the
             Scripture
             ,
             thou
             leavest
             out
             the
             word
             All
             ,
             Read
             it
             as
             it
             is
             in
             thy
             own
             Book
             .
          
        
         
           
             F.
             H.
             
          
           
             I
             Read
             it
             as
             it
             is
             in
             the
             Greek
             ;
             for
             it
             is
             not
             so
             in
             the
             Greek
             ,
             as
             it
             is
             in
             our
             Books
             .
          
           
             An
             indifferent
             person
             standing
             by
             called
             unto
             him
             ,
             and
             told
             him
             ,
             Francis
             what
             do
             you
             bring
             your
             Bible
             hither
             for
             ,
             if
             it
             be
             wrong
             translated
             .
          
        
         
           
             S.
             C.
             
          
           
             We
             have
             no
             reason
             to
             go
             from
             the
             plain
             words
             of
             Scripture
             to
             believe
             thee
             ;
             for
             we
             believe
             the
             Scripture
             speaks
             as
             true
             in
             this
             as
             in
             any
             other
             things
             that
             it
             declares
             of
             ;
             and
             further
             ,
             we
             understand
             the
             things
             of
             God
             in
             the
             Language
             in
             which
             we
             were
             born
             ,
             and
             we
             would
             not
             be
             so
             shuffled
             off
             ,
             or
             baffled
             out
             of
             our
             belief
             of
             the
             truth
             of
             the
             Scriptures
             ,
             to
             believe
             what
             thou
             or
             any
             man
             says
             ,
             who
             say
             they
             are
             not
             true
             ;
             and
             I
             told
             him
             then
             ,
             I
             believed
             he
             did
             say
             that
             which
             was
             not
             true
             of
             the
             Greek
             Copies
             ;
             and
             as
             I
             then
             said
             ,
             so
             I
             have
             since
             found
             it
             to
             be
             ;
             for
             since
             I
             desired
             some
             that
             understood
             the
             Greek
             and
             Latine
             Tongues
             ,
             and
             the
             word
             
               All
               Men
            
             ,
             which
             he
             would
             not
             read
             ,
             and
             impudently
             said
             it
             was
             not
             in
             the
             Greek
             ,
             which
             you
             may
             here
             read
             ,
             
               Apparuit
               enim
               gratia
               Dei
               salvatoris
               nostri
               omnibus
               hominibus
               ,
            
             
               〈◊〉
               〈◊〉
               〈◊〉
               〈◊〉
               〈◊〉
            
             ;
             Whereby
             all
             men
             may
             see
             this
             mans
             deceit
             ,
             who
             makes
             lyes
             his
             refuge
             ,
             
             and
             under
             falshood
             hides
             himself
             ,
             but
             in
             the
             light
             he
             is
             seen
             ,
             and
             by
             the
             Children
             of
             the
             light
             made
             manifest
             ,
             and
             his
             unfruitful
             works
             of
             darkness
             detected
             ,
             and
             his
             Religion
             seen
             to
             be
             vain
             ,
             who
             does
             not
             bridle
             his
             Tongue
             from
             lying
             ,
             and
             slandering
             of
             the
             Innocent
             ;
             which
             is
             known
             to
             have
             been
             his
             practice
             these
             several
             years
             ,
             and
             yet
             so
             continues
             ,
             whereby
             he
             renders
             evil
             towards
             us
             for
             good
             ,
             who
             suffered
             him
             to
             shelter
             himself
             under
             us
             to
             get
             out
             of
             prison
             .
          
        
         
           
             F.
             H.
             
          
           
             Pretended
             to
             shake
             the
             dust
             off
             his
             feet
             ,
             and
             went
             his
             way
             .
          
        
         
           
             S.
             C.
             
          
           
             Deceit
             ,
             if
             thou
             goest
             away
             ,
             remember
             that
             thou
             hast
             not
             yet
             proved
             that
             we
             are
             such
             as
             thou
             hast
             said
             we
             are
             ,
             and
             I
             warn
             thee
             to
             cease
             from
             railing
             against
             us
             any
             more
             ;
             and
             this
             further
             I
             have
             to
             offer
             thee
             ,
             and
             
               Joseph
               Odde
            
             ,
             I
             would
             have
             you
             both
             fit
             down
             and
             hear
             ;
             for
             I
             have
             somthing
             upon
             me
             to
             declare
             to
             the
             people
             ,
             and
             I
             shall
             open
             my
             heart
             freely
             before
             you
             and
             them
             ,
             and
             speak
             ,
             as
             to
             the
             things
             we
             have
             been
             speaking
             of
             ;
             and
             if
             I
             speak
             any
             thing
             contrary
             to
             Scripture
             ,
             you
             shall
             have
             your
             liberty
             by
             the
             Scripture
             to
             reprove
             me
             ;
             but
             they
             hastened
             away
             with
             railing
             words
             in
             their
             mouths
             ;
             and
             we
             continued
             some
             time
             together
             ,
             in
             which
             I
             cleared
             my
             Conscience
             to
             all
             that
             were
             there
             present
             ;
             and
             then
             we
             parted
             to
             our
             places
             in
             peace
             ,
             having
             committed
             our
             Testimony
             unto
             the
             Witness
             of
             God
             in
             every
             ones
             Conscience
             ,
             which
             is
             the
             equal
             measure
             of
             what
             was
             said
             and
             done
             that
             day
             .
          
        
         
           And
           thus
           we
           have
           given
           an
           account
           in
           part
           of
           that
           days
           proceedings
           ,
           for
           the
           satisfying
           of
           all
           that
           desire
           to
           know
           the
           Truth
           of
           the
           matter
           ,
           for
           the
           stopping
           of
           all
           false
           reports
           which
           envious
           persons
           may
           spread
           abroad
           ;
           the
           which
           we
           hear
           these
           men
           are
           not
           wanting
           in
           ,
           otherwise
           we
           could
           have
           been
           contented
           to
           have
           been
           silent
           ,
           and
           to
           have
           left
           it
           without
           further
           publication
           to
           the
           Witness
           of
           God
           ,
           in
           the
           Consciences
           of
           those
           who
           heard
           us
           that
           day
           ,
           who
           are
           Friends
           to
           all
           men
           ;
           and
           in
           that
           we
           generally
           desire
           their
           Everlasting
           Peace
           and
           Rest
           with
           God
           ,
           in
           the
           Kingdom
           of
           his
           Dear
           Son.
           
        
         
           
             
               
                 S.
                 Cater
                 ,
              
               
                 J.
                 Webb
                 ,
              
               
                 J.
                 B.