A gagg for the Quakers, with an answer to Mr. Denn's Quaker no Papist. Smith, Thomas, 1623 or 4-1661. This text is an enriched version of the TCP digital transcription A93414 of text R207100 in the English Short Title Catalog (Thomason E764_2). Textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. The text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with MorphAdorner. The annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). Textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. This text has not been fully proofread Approx. 59 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 11 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. EarlyPrint Project Evanston,IL, Notre Dame, IN, St. Louis, MO 2017 A93414 Wing S4231bA Thomason E764_2 ESTC R207100 99866171 99866171 167147 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A93414) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 167147) Images scanned from microfilm: (Thomason Tracts ; 117:E764[2]) A gagg for the Quakers, with an answer to Mr. Denn's Quaker no Papist. Smith, Thomas, 1623 or 4-1661. [20] p. Printed by J.C. and are sold neer the north door of S. Pauls Church., London, : MDCLIX. [1659] Attributed to Thomas Smith. Signatures: pi² A-B⁴. Annotation on Thomason copy: "Nou: 3". Reproduction of the original in the British Library. eng Denne, Henry, 1606 or 7-1660? -- Quaker no papist. Society of Friends -- Controversial literature -- Early works to 1800. Quakers -- Early works to 1800. A93414 R207100 (Thomason E764_2). civilwar no A gagg for the Quakers,: with an answer to Mr. Denn's Quaker no Papist. Smith, Thomas 1659 10420 2 10 0 0 0 0 12 C The rate of 12 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the C category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2007-05 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2007-05 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2007-09 Elspeth Healey Sampled and proofread 2007-09 Elspeth Healey Text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A GAGG for the QUAKERS , WITH AN ANSWER TO Mr. DENN'S Quaker no Papist . LONDON , Printed by J. C. and are sold neer the North-Door of S. Pauls Church . MDCLIX . TO THE. READER . Reader , LIttle did any man think when the dispute between the Quakers and Mr. S. began at Cambridge , that it would suddenly come to this question ( between Papists and Protestants ) VVhether there be any such thing in the world as a Protestant Clergy , and consequently whether any true Church , or faith , or sacraments be to be had out of the Church of Rome . I dare say that those who heard the publick dispute at Cambridge , did as little foresee this , as the Reverend author of Schism dispatcht did think that the controversie between him and S. VV. ( with those other Romanists who have writ against him , about infallibility and schism ) would end in this debate , VVhether we may give as much credit in matter of fact to 24 of the ancient Fathers of the Greek and Latin Church , as to 12 country Yeomen on a Jury . The Protestant affirming this , the Papist denying it . But so it is ; and so it appears by these two following discourses . Which if you have patience to read , you will find that Mr. Den . ( pretending to defend the Quaker ) saith not one word in defense of any Sect , but only the down-right open Papist ; and that he useth the very same arguments , and the same words against Protestants in general ; as the Papists do in their daily-printed books . But if your leisure will not permit you to read the whole be pleased ( for a tast ) to peruse the 58. 59. and 60th . § of the letter to Mr Den . and the 14th . and 16th . pages of the Queries . Farewell and beware of wolves in sheeps-clothing . A Memorable Advertisement from Dorsetshire . IN September last 1659 there was a strange discovery made of divers Witches in and neer the Town of Sherburne in Dorsetshire , there being neer 200. of them at one meeting , most of them Quakers and Anabaptists . Three Men and two Women formerly Quakers , committed to Dorchester Goale where they now are prisoners , have confessed upon their examination and since their commitment to sundry persons of quality who have visited them , 1. That when the Devill first appeared to , and tempted them to become Witches ; He first of all perswaded them ; to renounce their Baptisme and no wonder , because in it they renounced the Divel and all his works , with all the sinfull lusts of the flesh : which they did Actually renounce before they made a contract with him . 2. That the Devil did often visibly appear to them in sundry formes ( and perswaded them as he Matth. 4. 8 , 9 , 10. Luc. 4. 5 , 6 , 7 , 8. tempted our Saviour ) to fall down and worship him , which they did . 3. That he instigated them to torment , bewitch and destroy as his and their greatest enemy Mr. Lyford late Minister of Sherburne , a learned , pio us Orthodox , painfull Divine , being tormented with a painfull and sharpe disease of which he dyed ; and Mr. Bamfield his successour a very godly laborious Minister , whom they have forced by their Witchcrafts to desert the Town . 4. The two Women confess to all , that the Divel hath oft times had Actuall copulation with them in sundry shapes ; but most commonly in the shape of Mr. Lyford and Mr. Bamfield , the Ministers of Sherburne , whom he and they most hated and endeavoured to destroy . 5. The Devil since their imprisonment hath frequently appeared to them all , and actually possessed them , bruising , tearing like the unclean Spirit Mar. 9. 18. to the 28. Luc. 9. 39. 42. &c. tossing them frequently up & down the prison in a strange manner , tormenting them with strange fits of convulsions , quakings , shakings in all their joynts , and swellings in their whole bodies , that their skins are ready to break , which makes them cry out and roar with great horror , as divers eye-witnesses of quality attest . And if incredulous Mr. Denne , or any other Quakers doubt the truth of it , if they please to visit them at Dorchester , they will be enforced to confess it , and give glory unto God for his discovery of the evillness of the way and sect of Quakers . To Mr. HEN. DENNE . Sir ; § . 1. THis day I met with a decree of the Pope , condemning the late Apology for the Jesuits ( which was printed in answer to Montalto's mystery of Jesuitisme ) and threatning all who dare read or keep it ; but withall I met with a new Apology for the same persons with your name prefixed . Wherein wondring to find several aspersions cast upon sundry of the Jesuites adversaries ( among the rest upon Mr. Tho. Smith ) I resolved to spend an hour or two in vindicating them and the Church of England ; which ( in favour to the flourishing Romish Mistriss and idolatry ) you think fit to call their fading Mistriss and idol . 2. And here if I should imitate you , I should superscribe this , To my frivolous and learned friend , H. D. Mr. of Arts and senior Soph. Captain and Apothecary , farmer and Minister , the reverend Apologist for the Society of Jesus . But counting it no virtue to imitate you in this kind , I shall only take notice of such passages as may appear to some weak people to be pertinent . 3. In the first page , you tell us that the Tinker mendeth soules ; though you can not but know if you have read over that book which you pretend to answer ( which I much doubt ) that this Tinker p. 297. l. 21. of his book entituled Law and Gospel , adviseth his convert in these words come to Christ even as filthy as ever thou canst : that is ( if I understand English ) when you have sworn a vain oath and would go to prayer for pardon of that sin , first stab your Father , then poison your Mother , lie with your sister : and then go confidently to Church , but not before . If Mr. D. have read this or those other strange passages of this T's . sermon mentioned in the Quaker disarmed , or ( if he 'l not believe that relation ) if he 'l credit his own eyes , and see what the same Tinker saith against Christ's oration ( Mat. 25. 35. 42. ) and against the necessity of good works p. 65. 66. 99. 100. 101. 151. 304. 311. methinks he should not say this Tinker mends soules ; unless he mean that he mendeth them just as he mends kettles , that is , stopping one hole and making many . 4. In the next place H. D. blames Mr. S. for proving that none may preach unless they be sent , when ( quoth he ) the T. is of the same mind . I answer that the T. did deny it , till Mr. S. had proved it ; or at least he bid him prove it . And Mr. S. wa perswaded ( and still is ) that Mr. E. to whom that letter was writ did not believe the necessity of any omission . 5. Whereas you would fain invalidate Mr. Smiths ordination , you may suppose him ordeined by Bp. Hall ; and then when you have answerd Mason de ministerio Anglicano , Dr. Fern against Champney , and the vindications of our Reformation and Orders which are writ by Bp. Bramhall and Dr. Heylin , 't is very probable you shall receive Mr. S. his determination of your questions . Till then he who thinks you have not vouchsafed to read that smal book which you pretend to answer & profess magisterially to censure , can not believe that you 'l find leisure to read his determinations of such questions . And he hath not so much spare time as you , to write and print books only for his own reading . 6. Mean while I must tell you , that one reason why I think you have not read over the Quaker disarmed , is because you put a case and three queries in your 4th . page , which are answerd in the letter to Mr. E § . 35. Yet for your more abundant satisfaction I le answer them more particularly ; by asserting . 1. That in your case the preaching of those shipwrackt men to pagans is no sin . 2ly . That in such extraordinary cases 't is lawfull for such a Congregation to choose their Teachers . 3ly . That such a Congregation may find fitting men , full of faith , to preach unto unbelievers ; especially if the shipwrackt men have recourse , as soon as they can , to the Church , to ordein them : as Frumentius and Aedesius did who are mentioned in the letter to Mr. E. afore-cited . 7. But H. D. must give me leave to tell him , that that man hath an ill mind who being in a ship well orderd , usurpeth the Masters or Pilots place , and takes to himself what portion of the fraight he pleases ; meerly because a vessell shipwrackt is sometimes thought a lawfull prey by the people on the shore : And I wonder that these words should come from one that pretends to be a Minister of the Gospel , unless he would imply that he hath an eager mind to shipwrack an entire vessell under faile . 8. Whereas in your 5th . page you fall foul upon Mr. S. for disputing with Quakers ; you must know , that those your friends did not only challenge him and all the Clergy in England in print ( G. Fox's mystery in folio p. 19. preface ) but set up their bills of defiance upon the commencement and School doors . Nay the Maiors Wife and divers other Quakers were importunate with Mr. S. to dispute ( who half an hour before the on set resolved to decline it ) and the Maior himself told Mr. S. that he was glad he would undertake them , for he had oft said that they were so insolent because no man meddled with them . And the case standing thus ( as Mr. James Alders and many others can witness ) I would gladly see your determination ; and what you have to say against S. Paul , who saith 't is the duty of a Minister not only to exhort but to confute gainsayers Tit. 1. 9. 9. For the argument of three hees see p. 2. Mr. S. did not say , that this was the only way of proof , but that it was one ; He did not say , that all three hee 's be three persons , but that all hee s which be in Heaven are such . You may see they were then speaking of the three that bear record in Heaven ; and I hope Mr. H. D. will stable none of his troop-horses in Heaven though they come into Pauls . 10. In your 2d . § . you would cleer G. W. from being a Papist because you say he would take no oath Ans. Others think that he will take an oath when 't is for his advantage , as you may see in the queries ; and if that be true , ( as Mr. S. hath reason to believe it ) I know no reason why he should refuse the oath unless he be a Papist . Nor would Mr. S. I believe have mentioned that oath to him , if he had not been assured that G. W. and H. D. are both alike bitter enemies to the old moderate way of tryal , appointed by the Church of England ; and if you be so , I am yet to learn what other way , beside this oath , he could have propounded . 11. To your 3d. § . where you ask who can make sense of the story of the twelve Embassadours ; I answer any man but Mr. D. who is unwilling . To the rest of this § . besides what you have been told before [ p. 2. l. 24. ] I reply , that though the Father Son and H. Ghost are one essence , and each of these three is every where ; yet that they may manifest the distinction of persons , one having condescended to an incarnation whose human nature there appeared , the other two did at his baptisme manifest themselves by sensible symbols . Which three sensible manifestations Almighty God was pleased then to make unto mens senses in three distinct places ( though each of the three persons be in all places ) that we who are in divers places might have some apprehension of the distinct personalities . 12. In your 4th . § . you tell Mr. Smith of Luther , Calvin , Zuinglius ( as the Romanists are wont . ) As if all those who protest against the Church of Rome for pretending to infallibilty , were thereupon necessarily obliged to place the same infalibility in every Protestant Doctor . And whereas you ought ( if you would say any thing pertinently ) to prove what the Protestants of the Church of England answered , you tell us what the Papists in other Nations object ; whether truely or not I shall not now stand to examine . 13. But I am glad to meet with a man that hath read ALL the books of Papists in those times , and ALL their Histories . I hope you would not cite them all as fitted with matter for your purpose , unlesse you had read them all : I entreat you to cite not all of them ( though the more the merrier ) but only one , if you can , in all your vast historical readings ( I say one Protestant of those many thousands that have defended the Church of England ) who hath made such an Enthusiastical answer as that of G. W. 14. In your 5th . § . you fondly imagine T. S. stark mute divers times ; As first , upon your saying that the first Protestant Bishops had no ordination , but what they mutually gave themselves and one another . Ans. If you mean by mutually ( as common sense requires ) that the Ordained did ordain the Ordainer Bishop , I beseech you to prove it : for 't is as false , as 't is evidently known that the four Bishops-Ordeiners were Bishops before the beginning of Q. Elizabeths reign ; of which time onely you make this question and scruple . 15. Secondly , you fancy T. S. mute again upon your asking who gave them commission to make Math. Parker Arch-bishop of Canterbury . Ans. The Bishops in King Edward VI's . time did give them power and so commission ( for all Bishops have commission when fit occasion and due circumstances occur ) to make Mat. Parker Bishop : and I doubt not but Mr. Smith ( as mute as you conceive him , and impertinent in Manuscripts ) is both able and ready to show you in his own private library ( besides what he hath in the publick ) some antient records , wherein you 'l find it evident that Mat. Parker was a true Bishop ; if you think there can any evidence arise from the testimony of a peevish adversary , who lived in Matthew Parkers dayes . 16. Presently you add that T. S. dared not profess openly that they received their commission from Popish Bishops of K. Henry VIII's time . Ans. true ; because he dares not speak a falsity : for they received it in the time of Edw. VI . Though what you suppose had been no impossible thing , since good Protestants in the dayes of Edw. VI . had received valid baptisme ( as all men do acknowledg ) in Henry the eights reign . 17. In answer to the rest of this § . be pleased to know that the antient Church believed ( contrary to your Popish novelty ) that all Bishops had spiritual jurisdiction , as being successors to the Apostles . And 't is only the interest of the Pope to deny it : who is wont to make titular Bishops without jurisdiction , to serve himself in his pretended Councils . 18. I hope I need not tell Mr. D. ( who tells others § . 15. how they speak at Cambridge ) that a Master and a Family , an overseer and a charge are relata , rise and fall together : but I must tell him that Bishop Barlow and Miles Coverdale had the warrant of all their Ecclesiastical Superiors ( who then were over them ) to make Bishops in the diocess of London and that Bonner was not their superior . 19. To what you speake at large of Q. Elizabeths being a Lay-person and not being able to give any power , &c. I answer ; What power that Queen had , and ought to have in Ecclesiastical matters you may see in the Articles of the Church of England : which no Papist nor Anabaptist ( H. D. or W. J. W. J. or H. D. ) was ever able to disprove , or durst say one word against it . 20. Reading forward I am at a stand , and must plainly confesse I know not what you mean by what followes , viz. your comparing the common people , and Masters of Families with the Queen that then was . I know not what your asserting that these have as much power as the Queen can drive at , but casting off all authority ; like your brethren at Munster . 21. To your 6th . § . I answer that if there be any Churches beyond our seas , who count it their glory to want a succession of Bishops , yea to cry shame upon it ; and to reject it as a superstitious relique of Popery , and mark of Antichrist , we are no more engaged to defend such people , then the Quaker is engaged to defend the Papist , or the Papist a Quaker ; nor so much , as appears by this Apology which I am now answering . 22. This I know that not only the Reformed Churches in their Confession of Ausburg , and again in their Apology for that Confession ( cap. de . ordine ecclesiastico , & cap. de potestate eccles. ) and in their other colloquies at Wormes and Ratisbon , and divers of their books beside ; but likewise Mr. Calvin ( who subscribed the Augustane confession ) in his book de necessitate reformandae ecclesiae to Cardinal Sadolet his old friend , and in his epistles to Archbishop Cranmer and Bishop Ridley , and in his Institutions l. 4. c. 4. § . 4. And with him Mr. Beza too in his book de diversis gradibus ministr. . c. 21. § . 23. I say I know ( and am as sure as a man that believes his eyes can be ) that these and Zanchy , Diodati , Cappellus , Pet. Moulin ; Daillé , and others the most learned French-men now living believe episcopacy and the government by Bishops to be lawfull at least . And I am sure that Mr. T. S. if H. D. be so well acquainted with him as he pretends ( but I am told he confessed he did not know him so much as by sight , the same hour that he owned this printed book to him ) will at his request give him a larger list of reformed forraign Divines on this subject , and proofes that other protestant churches beside the English have a successsion of Bishops which I saw in his chamber . But there is so much already printed of the L. Viscount Falklands Bp. Carleton and others against your ungrounded assertion , that I shall deferr sending you a larger catalogue until you ( or your friend Knot the Jesuit , who also hath writ against Episcopacy ) shall have answered Dr. Hamonds dissertations against Blondel , otherwise than by your sword and sequestration . 23. Your 7th . § . conteining nothing to the purpose but a bare assertion that [ T. S. § . 16. and ] great numbers even of Episcopall men , PRESBYTERIANS Independents , and ALL professors besides Papists , do refuse to take the oath of abjuration , is in my opinion answered sufficiently , till it be proved , by a bare negation ; Though some of them have much more cause to refuse it than you ; who have taken away the former trial of Popery , viz. Recusancy ; common by the Law to Papists , Anabaptists and other Sectaries : which names I hope you 'l not be angry at , while you take them to your self p. 16. l. 14. 16. 24. In your 8th . § . you argue against the oath thus ; No man can safely swear that he believes no purgatory , unlesse he be as sure that there is no purgatory as that there is a God . Ans. This looks like the saying of Fa. Knot against Chillingworth , who thinks that what ever he believes in religion he believes with the same certainty wherewith he receives the highest articles of the Christian faith . When passion and prejudice is laid aside , I hope you 'l find time to consider whether if you were now disputing in the Divinity Schools you might not safely affirm that to be true which is your opinion in any matter of Religion , and not expect that any Caviller who stands by ( and is no way concerned in the Act ) should thence inferr and cry out that you are as sure of it as that there is a God who made the world . If this Caviller should go further , single this assertion ( perhaps being only argumentum ad hominem ) out of your whole dispute and print a book against it , would not he be ( as you say Mr. S. is ) not a little ridiculous ? And would not you your self take as little notice of him as Mr. Smith doth of you ? I should enlarge upon this your acception of the word believe , but that Mr. Chillingworth hath said enough of it in his answer to your Brother Knot , and T. S. in his defense of Chillingworth . 25. In the last lines of this 12th . page you have these words , what do I know whether purgatory be revealed in Scripture or no ? You seem here plainly to profess that you do not know whether Papists or Protestants be in the right , so far as to Gods revelation in Scripture ; which Protestants have alwayes made their rule . By which we may judge what a Protestant you are , And that Anabaptists either deny the H. Scripture to be their rule , or affirm that they know no error in purgatory . 26. To the 9th . § . whereof I can scarce make common sence , I might tell you that no Parliament is in any sense that which is signified by the word person . But I rather answer that no Parliament can free any person from any oath of beliefe which he hath taken : For example , if one Parliament propound an oath to me to declare whether I think the Articles of the Councill of Trent be Orthodox and Catholick , and I swear no ; from this oath ten thousand Parliaments can never absolve me . If I swear in truth I need no Absolution : but if I therein forswear my self , the Parliament can not free me from perjury , nor remit the guilt of it . The matter of this oath was Concerning belief , and I never yet heard or read , that any Parliament in England did assume power of setting men at liberty from beleiving what they believe in matter of Religion . I grant that an Act of Parliament may be repealed by a Parliament and so the Law of exacting this oath may be abrogated , but that an oath taken Concerning matter of belief or not belief can be voided by any Power on earth , is the doctrine not of any English Parliament , but only of the Conclave at Rome : therefore ( good Mr. Denne ) creep not under the wing of an English Parliament , but confesse your Argument to be a naked weapon of a Romish Jesuite . 27. To your 10th . § . I answer briefly , that 't is not to be imagined any English Parliament hath or will forbid the subject of any Prince to acknowledg that civill subjection which is due to his Soveraign , so long as he remaines in his dominions . 28. In your 11th and 12th Sections you make the oath of abjuration to be both a prelaticall and Presbyterian design ( prelaticall men must be sure to pay for all ) but whereas you tell me divers times of Prelatical malice , and that the Papists Vniversally disown that Tenet which is objected to them as theirs ; viz. That faith is not to be kept with Hereticks . I shall not insist upon the Lateran councel ( which decreed anno . 1216. can. 30. that the Pope hath power to absolve subjects from their obedience ) which is one of those Synods to which Bellarmin saith all that are Catholicks must submit : but I reply , that what you say here is nothing to the purpose , for Mr. S. never said otherwise , for ( in the 16th . page of his preface to Daille's Apology for the Reformed Churches ) he professeth so much kindness to the Romanist in this particular , that I have heard him censured by some of them as talking there like an inamorato . But methinks both they and you instead of censuring him and bringing new arguments , should answer that which he printed therein above six years since ; especially when he there doth very earnestly beseech them to answer it , professing that he had been many years troubled with it . The argument is this , That which one or two ( or some few ) Roman Doctors say is lawfull , may ( in the judgment of Papists ) be done without danger of mortal sin [ the Major is Mr. Knots charity maintained c. 4. § . 25. as also Valentia , Vasquez , Lessius , Enriques , Sa , Cellot de Hierarchia l. 8. c. 16. p. 714. ] But not only one , but many Roman Doctors say , 't is lawfull to murder or depose a supreme Magistrate that is guilty of heresie or suspected of it . Cavete principes conclusionem . The minor is sufficiently proved by Dr. Jer. Taylors sermon on the powder treason p. 50. and 51. and in a small tract intituled Romish positions for rebellion collected by Bp. Morton : and Mr. Yaxley's reasons why he could not be a Romanist ( as he much desired ) and a good subject to his Soveraign at one time . 29. Reading 'tother day Sleidans relation of your friends affairs at Munster I met with this passage , that there was a law made at the councel of Constance that promise should not be kept with Hereticks , or those that be suspected for Hereticks , though they came to the Synod upon the publick faith of the Emperour for the hearing of their cause . Sleidan , l. 3. ad an. 1521 , mihi p. 59. edit. Francf . 80. 30. You who pretend to skill in all Popish histories cannot but know , that John Hus had the Emperour Sigismunds safe conduct in as large termes as might be expressed , gratè suscipere , favorabiliter tractare — omnique prorsus impedimento remoto transire , stare , morari , & redirè libere permittatis , sibique [ Husso ] & suis , dum opus fuerit de securo & salvo velitis & debeatis providere conductu , ad honorem & Reverentiam nostrae Regiae Majestatis . And notwithstanding this he was burnt ; which questionless the Emp. would not have suffered , but either in obedience to the command of the councel , or upon that Councels perswading him that he was not to keep promise with a man whom they had declared an heretick : a man who ad incendium quasi ad epulas properavit , linguâ potens & mundioris vitae opinione clarus , as Aeneas Sylvius ( afterwards Pope Pius the 2d . ) Hist. Bohem. c. 35. 36. a man whose rare endowments Poghius the Florentine historian and Orator ( an eye-witness of his triall at the Councel of Constance ) admired ; saying nihil unquam protulit indignum bono viro ; ut si id in fine sentiebat quod verbis profitebatur nulla in eum 〈…〉 edum mortis causa inveniri justa posset . O virum dignum memoriâ hominum sempiternâ ! epist. Poghii ad Lenard . Aretin . in fascic. . rerum expet . & fug. p. 153. which passages I cite , lest you should object Campians retractus ex fugâ , or any such frivolous pretence . 31. In summe , since you impertinently affirm that the Papists universaly disown that Tenet , that faith is not to be kept with Hereticks ; methinks 't is fit you should prove that they universally disown the Councel of Constance , ( which is one of Bellarmines 17. ) unless you are so far Jesuited as that you reject that councell , because it ejected two Popes . 32. Mr. S. never yet said that Papists ought not to be permited to improve their estates , nor that there are not some Papists who abhorre breaking their promise ( and therefore while Mr. D. talkes to the contrary he fights with his shadow ) but you shall do well to prove that no Papists can take advantage from the decree of the Councel of Constance to break their promises made to Protestants . And I cannot but take notice , how much the Papists are beholden to Mr. Denne , for telling the World very plainly that they may finde every jot as much honest proceeding and credit in Papists as in Protestants . p. 15. l. penult . 33. A few lines after having told us that the Presbyterians are easily enough infected with such leaven ( prelaticall malice ) he falls into these words , Nor do they , while they fall thus upon others , take any notice of , or indeavour to answer , those things which are standing objections against thems●lves ; to wit in relation to their rebellion , disobedience and apostacy from the government of the church of Rome ; which in good earnest I think they will never be able to answer , upon their own principles . Ans. Observe how this man ( though he called himself Anabaptist and Sectary but two or three lines before these words ) now soon forgets what person he had assumed , pulls off his Vizard , and appears a bare faced Romanist . Observe how he who professes to teach men to be disobedient and rebellious to all Bishops , passionately and hastily takes part with him , who hath usurped upon all Bishops in the Christian world : and rather then loose his design , calleth all who now professe not to obey the Church of Rome Rebells , Disobedient , and Apostates from Her Government ( sure he can not in good earnest suppose them to be disobedient , unless in good earnest he believe they owe her obedience . ) Then judge what a foul slander this is in Mr. D. to blame protestants for their not endeavouring to answer those things which have been answered an hundred times by Bishops unanswerably : Judge what a crime it is for one who calls himself a Protestant to object against this and all other reformed Churches , the most bitter calumnies that the most extream rigid peevish Papists have devised . 34. You goe on thus ; supposing their ordination for which they so much contend to be of necessity and of Divine right , and that they had it from the Church of Rome , as most certainly they had . Ans. Here you seem to contradict what you said in the 6th . § . ( p. 9. l. 33. ) in these words , nor could he in truth affirm it . But if you mean by these words last cited out of the 12th . § . ( as they seem to import ) that you esteem our ordination to be of divine right because it came in succession from the Church of Rome , 't is a wide mistake . In summ , methinks you declare here openly in this paragraph that all who are baptized and ordained by any of the Church of Rome ( as 't is certain a great part of this nation was , even in the time of Gregorius M. ) do therefore now and shall for all future ages owe obedience to the Pope of Rome ; or else they are all Rebells and Apostates . Whereas we are not more ordained by those who were ordained by others from the Church of Rome , then Mr. Denne himself was baptized by the hand of one of those who was baptized from others that were heretofore Romish Priests ; so that our Ordination is surely as divine as his baptisme . As for his being rebaptized , both the Church of Rome ( for whom he pleads ) and we and all the Christian World account him , for that , a Rebell and Apostate from the Universall Church . 35. But because he sayes in good earnest he believes it can never be answered upon our principles , he shall receive his answer in these three lines following , challenging both the Jesuites and Anabaptists Mr. H. D. and N. N. to answer it if they can : The Answer is this . 36. The popes of the Church of Rome dare not deny themselves to have received Ordination from the Church of Jerusalem ; notwithstanding this they professe that they owe no subjection to the Bishop of Jerusalem : Therefore it was ( not prelaticall , but ) Anabaptistical I malice to tell all Bishops that have been ordained from Rome they are Apostates and Rebels from the Church of Rome in good earnest if they ( avouching ordination from the Clergy to be of necessity and Divine right ) do not obey the Pope . 37. That which followes in your books about Mr. G. & Mr. P. who disputed against the Romanists ( a fact which I believe Mr. Hen. Denne never was never will be guilty of ) all that know those Ministers know to be superfluous and frivolous . However I to whom you ( in defense of the Quakers very pertinently do object this ) think fit to tell you , that whereas the Romanist took a longer time only to put forth an edition of that , which if he had dealt truely was all before done to his hand ; whereas he hath also so changed , transposed , added , diminish't and made of it what he list , that I believe it will be as soon owned for your ( I mean not J. S. but H. D's . ) conference as Mr. Pearsons or Mr. Gunnings ; I must now tell you further ( what you have been oft enough told ) that that relation cannot expect to be regarded by Mr. P. or any sober person which is disclamed and disowned by three of the four who were disputants , viz. by both the Protestants and half the Papists . 38. But chiefly I must entreat you to consider whether the inserting of above 200. lines at a time as part of the conference which never was part of it ( besides all professed additions ) 2ly . Whether the leaving out whole sheets of the Protestants , which the Papists thought too hard to answer ; and 3ly . the scarce suffering any one argument and answer of both to come together ( but casting usually parts of the same paper of Mr. G. many score leaves asunder one from the other ) be not a scandal that any Christian would desire might be covered with silence . And I would gladly know from any ingenuous person , whether this might not be answer enough to a book put out at the charge of the Romanists own purse and conscience ; a discourse by being mangled rendred so unintelligible , that scarce any man ever read it over or will . 39. One of your friends sent 3 copies of this conference between Mr. G. Mr. P. and the Jesuites to Mr. T. S. in Cambridge , who being very desirous to hear what was in it ( and having not leasure to read it all himself ) gave two of them away , upon condition that those learned persons on whom he bestowed them should read it : but they both threw it aside before they had read a few leaves of it . Reverend Mr. Will. Moor , the deceased Library keeper , was perswaded by Mr. T. S. to read one leaf ; but professed before many witnesses he would not read another if you would give him the whole impression : because 't was so unintellegible for the causes above mentioned . 40. As for your own book ( which you commend ) against the same Mr. G. of the same alloy . If a tract as full of falshood as any pamphlet is wont to be fraught with , may be believed against so many thousand witnesses as heard you both dispute two dayes ; & at length the dispute , interrupted by the Anabaptists themselves against all laws of dispute , as you your self then & there acknowledged ; If Mr. Gunnings giving the world satisfaction at the same place concerning the whole matter and the Universall Churches tradition concerning that question , in a third discourse afterward , at the request of the Moderator ( For the Moderator hearing both Mr. D. and Mr. G. appeal to the Churches tradition , said , that the Auditory was unsatisfied in that particular , and therefore desired that one of them would take the pains to clear it , Mr. Denne refusing Mr. G. did it ) to which Mr. Denne then durst not reply a word . If I say all this cannot rescue Mr. G. from the expectation of a reply to a pamphlet in print , because forsooth 't is in print , we may expect his answer hereafter when he shall see fit ; with a relation of a former and of a later Jesuites dealing and Mr. Dennes collated . 41. But in the mean while to give you and your friends employment ( which I perceive you want ) and satisfaction if possible ; After you have answered the letter in Quaker Disarm'd ( taking in the enclosed printed paper entituled a Gag for lay-preachers which you may have neer the Little North-door of S. Pauls , ) I shall entreat you to know ( because you complain of your books lying unanswered , and therein a scandall and prejudice to the Protestant cause ) that there is a multitude of considerable books writ by Protestants in folio and other volumes against the Church of Rome which have been 20. or 30. years unanswered ; and are like to lye forty more . 42. I shall name some : first ( for your reading ) a new gag for an old goose by Bishop Mountague , Bp. Franc. White , and Bp. Laud , and Bp. Chappell against Fisher , Spalato's 3. tomes , Bp. Hall , Birckbeck , Crackenthorp , Bp. Mountague against Bullinger , Dr. Tho. Jackson , Chillingworth , ( tho your friends the Jesuites have attempted to answer his pamphlet , as they call it , divers times , and Mr. Knot was 19. or 20. years about one . ) Then in a smaller volume so many that a bare catalogue of them would make a big book , as Dr. Cosins , Dr. Jer. Taylor , Dr. Fern , Dr. Featly , Dr. Heylin , Dr. Hammond of infallibility , and his dispatcher dispacht . These all new , beside old ones . Not to mention the heaps of excellent pieces of Forrainers Dailleus , Moulin , Blondell , Calixtus , Bochartus , Placeus , &c. each of them as famous and considerable as your Jesuites . 43. And yet you and they be the men that clamour against the Protestants as if they could say nothing for themselves , when 't is as clear as the sun at noon , that neither you in this apology nor they in their other writings have a word to alledg against us , but what hath been unanswerably refelled by the forementioned Authors and others 100. times . And yet you are so wise as to complain of our silence , and the Jesuites ( for whom you here plead ) put forth books consisting only of questions to the same men , insteed of giving them so much as one answer to their many demonstrations made against you : and though some of them as Mr. G. Dr. H. &c. never declined any meeting with the ablest of you and the Jesuites , but attend the business as diligently as if they had nothing else to do , and have been oft declined by you and them , and can bring witnesses to depose where severall Romish Priests have appointed dayes and houres and ( at the very hour appointed ) sent a flam to prevent the meeting . 44. But to come closer to you Mr. Denne . For your part , besides this scandalous false printed relation of your own here mentioned , one may ( to use your own words ) guesse at the conscience and honesty of Mr. Hen. Denne by his saying not one word in his book of a publick conference held by him and the same person , upon the same question , at Castor in Northamptonshire . But I suppose you 'l publish that when you print your publick dispute with Mr. Weller of Immanuel Colledge before the Committee at the Bear in Cambridge . 45. Besides all this , a reasonable man would think that Mr. Gunning having taken such paines , when you disputed with him at S. Clements Church , to keep the Auditors from hissing Mr. Hen. Denne quite off from the desk and dispute ( as divers who were there tell me they will witnesse ) deserves to be excused if he takes no paines to consider your pamphleting afterwards . 46. The mentioning whereof minds me of your blaming Mr. T. S. for Arabick , &c. In answer to which I am told , that though he ownes the dispute as a true matter of fact , and so far his ; yet 't was penned by one of the auditors who took it in short-hand : and then it was no absurdity to say Mr. Smith was doing that which all the University knowes he was appointed by the Vice-chancellour to do , in reference to printing a Catalogue of all the Manuscripts in Cambridge , which is now ready for the Press . But suppose all this to be false , yet it will be hard if Mr. T. S. who was deputed by Mr. Wheelock when he left Cambridge without hope of returning ( under hand and seal ) Arabick professour and hath taught that language to divers , have not more skill in that tongue then you have in the Aethiopick who cannot read it , and yet cited that and all other translations of the N. T. in the publick conference that you boast of at St. Clements Church without Temple-Bar : saying you would stick to the AETHIOPIC . And your respondent asking you whether you brought your argument from the Aethiopic copy or the Latin version ? You replyed with some smartness from both , from both , Sir . Which passage ( together with your saying that Children cry because they are unwilling to be baptized though they neither will nor nill , with divers others ( which you are so faithful a relater as to pass over in silence ) having made those thousands of people which heard you very merry , might have remained buried in silence , if looking into your two Books I had not met with your Aethiopic as well as Arabick . 47. But now leaving your languages I returne to your Apology , where § . 13. you say you can not see any great reason of fear or danger from the papists , questionlesse your bare warrant shall secure all English men from Powder-plots hereafter . 48. Your 14th § . you thus begin in their defence , I am to say something concerning those common Brutes which are raised against Popish Priests and Jesuites , as if they did secretly insinuate themselves into the Congregations of different professions in Religion . To which I answer that Mr. Pryn , Mr. Baxter and the rest whom you call Bedlams p. 6. & 19. may cry you mercy for the report of secret insinuations , for me thinks 't is open enough now ; or let the World judge by this book of yours . 49. But let us hear what he reports these bedlams and bookmakers to say ( by the way did H. D. never furnish the tobacco-shop with wast paper They tell ( quoth H. D. ) of an idle fellow one Ramsey , &c. I wish Mr. Hen. Den were such an Idle fellow , that he be likely to have the tithe of his Scholarship , though he live as long again . What this Mr. Ramsey is and was , I desire Mr. Denne may learn from a book printed by some of very good repute in Newcastle , and the depositions sent up by the Mayor of that Town with Mr. Ramsey to London ; some years before Mr. Prynne could hear any thing of his conference at Cambridge : so that he was not imprisoned upon a bare suspicion as Mr. D. saith . How he got out of the Gatehouse , and what he did in Cambridge , I had rather he should hear from Mr. Ratcliff and Mr. Griffith of Christs Colledge , divers of St. Johns and other Colledges ( whom he taught Hebrew ) than from me ; who am confident I know his Religion & design from other Reasons , besides his frequenting Milton neer Cambridge . But sure H. D's concluding that because Ramsey came not to further tryal , therefore he was no disguised Papist , is no better an argument , than if he should prove , that there have been no Jesuits in England of late years , because ( though divers have been apprehended ) none have been brought to Tryal . 50. Concerning the Franciscan at Bristol , the oath of G. Cowlishaw Ironmonger in Bristol is upon record , and printed in Mr. Pryns Quaker unmaskt , edit. 2. p. 3. who ( p. 34 , &c. ) answers to what H. D. here objects to clear the Franciscan . Besides him at Bristol , I could tell Mr. Denne a strange story of his Father Whitebread saying Mass about London ; and of another disputing for the Quakers , and presently proved a masked Papist at Wolverhampton : but I had rather he should have these things from others who have more leisure . When he shall have considered these and other like relations ( which will shortly be printed at large ) I will desire him to tell the world , whether they be groundless and unproved calumnies . 51. To the next words , wherein he sayes , No mans innocency will be able to protect him against suspition ; I answer , That it is not fit any man should judge , how hardly Mr. Denne shall be dealt with by any suspitions , further then may appear by those propositions of his , which are recollected in the close of this address . 52. In the very next line H. D. saith , that he for his part does very confidently assure himself , that if an oath were tendred to ALL the Papists in this Nation , they would willingly swear , that neither they themselves , nor any that they know , did ever use any such practise , or ever thought it lawful to dissemble their Religion . Wherein H. D. expresses questionlesse a greater confidence in behalf of the Jesuits , then either Clark or Watson would of Robert Parsons the Jesuite ; or the secular Priests at this day will for the body of that Society , as appears by their books which for these sixty years they have writ one against another . So that H. D. is a closer friend to the Jesuites then many Romish Priests be . 53. This 15th . § . begins thus , we all know 't is a fallacious way of arguing to proceed , a posse ad esse , as they speak at Cambridge ( Do not they speak so at Doway and St. Omers too ? ) and yet no better is the Argument of the Papist's Adversaries in this case . Here he blames some persons under the name of Popish Adversaries , sure he means to exempt himself from the number . And before he is gone to the middle of this page he falls again to undertaking for the Principles of Popery , and passes his word that their principles contain nothing which allowes dissimulation in Religion . 54. But in the last page he will needs have Mr. S. to be a Papist for asserting that we receive the Canon of Scripture upon the Authority of the Church of all Ages , and the pure spouse of Christ , I would fain be told by Mr. Denne what reason he can give to his brethren Anabaptists and the Quakers , why the song of Solomon should be Canon and other usefull books which bare his name Apocrypha , why the Revelation of St. John should be put into the Canon 300. years after Christ and some gospells ( bearing the Apostles names ) left out , but the authority of the Jewish Church for the Old , and of the Christian for the New Testament ? But I would have him remember that to talk of the pure spouse of Christ , and the Church of all ages , and exclude the 12. Apostles and the first Century out of it , is a discourse not becoming Mr. Dennes profession . 55. Sure H. D. never saw Dr. Cosin of the Canon of Scripture , nor Hooker's Ecclesiastical policy , nor heard of St. Augustines non Crederem Scripturis nisi me moveret Ecclestae authoritas . If Mr. S. be a Papist for this , he hath these and a multitude of such good Protestant-company Popish with him . 56. You ask what other Church was there in all ages , but the Roman ? I answer , unless you and I agree now upon the terms of the question we must end where we should have begun ; therefore first I must desire you to tell me what you mean by the Roman Church ? Which I shall scarce know , till you answer the 20. questions that Mr. T. S. puts in the close of his preface to Daille's apology . But that you may not pass without one answer , I pray tell me what other Church was there in all ages but the Greek Church , and those that agree with her in all or most part of what she holds , particularly in believing no infallibility or Soveraign jurisdiction ( over all ) in the Bishop of Rome , for which among other good doctrines the present Roman Church refuseth her Communion ? 57. And here you mend all at last ; for you no sooner hear talk of a pure spouse of Christ the Church of all ages , but you apprehend it can be understood of none but the Roman Church ; and say plainly , that to talk of a pure spouse of Christ and the Catholick church in the creed , the church of all ages ( for those are the words in the letter that you cite ) is doubtless in effect , to justifie the church of Rome to be a pure church . 58. Thus having examined Mr. Hen. Dennes new book and Religion , I shall only recollect a few positions publisht by him and his friend George Whitehead the Quaker ( whom he would prove to be no Papist , and therefore that no Papist is a Quaker ) and then leave Mr. D. to turn over his Aethiopick Testament , all the books of Papists , and ALL their histories ; and leave the Reader to judge how good Protestants this fit couple be ; H. D. and G. W. George Whitehead besides those particulars which are mentioned in the Queries hereto annexed ( especially p. 14. and 16. ) maintaines these seven following Romish doctrines : 1. That justification is by inherent righteousness : and so saith no Protestant but so saith Bellarmin l. 2. de justificat . c. 3. 2ly . That a man may perfectly keep the law without sin : so saith ( not Protestants but ) Bell: l. 4. de justif. c. 11. 12. 13. 14. 3ly . G. W. denies the imputed righteousness of Christ for justification : so Bell: l. 2. de justif. c. 7. 4ly . G. W. affirms that Scripture is not the supream rule for trial of spirits : so Bell: l. 3. de verbo Dei c. 4. 5ly . G. W. hath writ an whole book against Mr. Clapham to prove that the written word is but a dead letter , and carnal . So saith Costerus in enchyridio . p. 44. 6ly . G. W. pretends to immediate Revelations and pretended miracles ( see Clapham and the century of queries ) so do the Papists : unchurching them who pretend not to them as triall of a Church . 7ly . G. W. and the Papist both alike place much of their holiness in their beggarly apparrell , in going openly with sackcloath and barefooted , which I find taxed by the ancient Fathers of the Church . Thus far G. W. 59. Now , for Mr. Hen. Denne ; I hope the Reader hath ere this observed , that though this book of his before us be entituled for the Quakers , & ( as I am told ) was offered to them at the Bull and Mouth in Aldersgate-street for their press , yet it is indeed all in behalf of the Papists ; and conteins not one word ( from the first to the last ) to the advantage of any sect under heaven but only the Romish : That the very same arguments , and the very same expressions are used now against the Church of England by the Anabaptist and by the Papist , so that he who answers one of them answers both . I might take notice also of such words in this Quaker no Papist , as cause the Author thereof whoever he be ( H. D. or J. W. or W. J. for I take them to be all one man ) to smell of a forrein Countrey : as when he speakes of the Justice of peace in his District , p. 10. and calls the same man Batchelour of Divinity and Master of Arts , putting this after that , and the like : but to let this pass I shall only mention a few of Mr. Hen. Dennes positions delivered by him in this tract ( for I have not leasure to look into Mr. Robothams Den of theeves ) and then leave our Disputant and Scholar to read his Aethiopic books . Some of his Doctrines printed in this book entituled Quaker no Papist , are these , 60. 1. That Mr. H. D. does not know whether Purgatory be revealed in Scripture or not . p. 12. l. penult . 2. That 't is clear who ever takes the oath of abjuration doth forswear the priviledges of Parliament . p. 14. medio . 3. That in good earnest he thinks those who had their ordination from the Church of Rome and do not obey the Pope , are Rebells , disobedient and Apostates , if they defend the necessity of ordination by Bishops p. 16. medio . 4. That he finds as much honest proceedings and credit in Papists as in Protestants p. 15. l. penult . & can see no great reason of fear or danger from papists p. 18. l. 3. 5. That he does very confidently assures himself ( sure no man else can assure him ) that if an oath were tendred to all the papists in this Nation ; they would all willingly swear that neither they themselves nor any that they know , did ever use any such practise as is reported of Ramsey by Mr. Pryn ( and some in Cambridge ) and of a Franciscan by Mr. Baxter ; and swear that neither they nor any they know did ever make profession for what ends soever , to be of any Religion save only their own , p. 19. fine . 6. That no Protestant Minister either in England or beyond the seas hath any better ordination or commission to preach then G. Whitehead the Quaker . p. 8 , 9 , 10. Lastly ( for I will not trouble the reader with recollecting all ) that the present Roman Church and no other is the pure spouse of Christ , or else there hath been none in all Ages . From these seven Capitall assertions of Popery let any indifferent man judge whether Mr. H. D. ( notwithstanding his vehement pretendings to the contrary ) may not be justly thought to favour the doctrine of the presentRoman Church , alittle more then a man of his profession ( which is Anabaptisme , next door to Quakery ) should do . And so till you answer these threescore Paragraphs I bid you heartily Farewell . QUESTIONS ERRATA . IN the letter to Mr. D. p. 2. l. 1. r. mission § . 31. r. Bellarmines 18 Councels . In the Queries , p. 2. l. 11. for let the reader judge , r. No conclusion can be false when the premises are true , l. 24. oft fordids , p. 12. l. 28. r. Sr Walter l. 29. Countess of Sidney , p. 13. l. 35. dele viz. lust wrath , &c. p. 16. l. 1. {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} . l. 2. {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} . p. 16. l. 16. for at the end of r. in the preface to these queries .