The immortality of the human soul, demonstrated by the light of nature in two dialogues. Charleton, Walter, 1619-1707. 1657 Approx. 299 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 103 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2004-03 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A32696 Wing C3675 ESTC R20828 12259505 ocm 12259505 57791 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A32696) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 57791) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 176:32) The immortality of the human soul, demonstrated by the light of nature in two dialogues. Charleton, Walter, 1619-1707. [15], 188 p. : port. Printed by William Wilson for Henry Herringman, and are to be sold at his shop ..., London : 1657. Dedication signed: W. Charleton. First ed. Cf. NUC pre-1956. Handwritten change in date to 1659. Errata: p. [13]. Advertisement: p. [14]. Reproduction of original in Yale University Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. 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Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Immortality -- Early works to 1800. Soul -- Early works to 1800. 2003-09 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2003-10 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2003-11 Olivia Bottum Sampled and proofread 2003-11 Olivia Bottum Text and markup reviewed and edited 2003-12 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion Imago pulcra Est. picta sculptoris manu ▪ At pulcriorem dat libris Autor suis ▪ Hic Corpus ▪ Illis ipsa Mens depingitur Imo Vniuersi Mens & Ipsius simul C. B. THE IMMORTALITY OF THE HUMAN SOUL , Demonstrated by the Light of NATURE . In Two DIALOGUES . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. Arist. 2 ▪ de Generat . Animal . LONDON , Printed by William Wilson for Henry Herringman , and are to be sold at his shop , at the signe of the Anchor in the Lower-walke , in the New-Exchange . 1659. TO THE RIGHT HONOVRABLE , The Lord Marquess of DORCHESTER , EARL of KINGSTON , VICOUNT NEW ARK , LORD I'IERPOINT , and Manvers , &c. My most Honour'd Lord , AS in the Firmament , or Aethereal region of the Great World , the Creator hath placed two great Lights , the one to rule the Day , the other to rule the Night : So , ( to constitute a perfect Analogy or correspondence ) in the Firmament or Celestial part of the Lesser World , Man , hath He placed two great Truths ( the proper Lights of the Soul ) the one to rule the Day , or Life of Man ; the other to dispel the horrid darknes of his Night , Death . And these are those twin-like proleptical Notions of the Being of the Deity , and of the Immortality of the Human Soul. I call them Twin-like Proleptical Notions , because , as the Sun and Moon were made together , so were these implanted at once in the Mind of the First Man , and have as constantly shined in the region of every mans Soul since , as those have done in the Heavens , however the opacity of terrene Objects and Corporeal Affections may seem somtimes to eclipse them : and because , as the Sun doth communicate its light to the Moon , so doth the Former of these super-excellent Notions , illuminate the Latter ; the knowledg of the Immortality of the Soul , receiving illustration , if not absolute dependence , from the knowledge of the Existence of God. The Consideration hereof ( may it please your Lordship ) as it engaged me , some years since , to endeavour the Demonstration of the Existence of God ; so hath it now of late importuned and prevailed upon me , to attempt the Demonstration of the Immortality of Mens Souls , by pure and sincere Reason : To the end , that such as doubt of either , may be convinced of the extream folly and absurdity of their unbelief ; and such as firmly believe both , may be corroborated in their true perswasions , observing the Testimony of the Light of Nature to make a perfect Symphonie and concordance with thatof Authority Divine . A Design , certainly , neither inconsistent with the genuine zeal of a Christian , nor unworthy the most serious speculation of a Philosopher : And were I as well assured , that I have not fallen much short of what might be expected from me , in the capacity of the Latter , as I am , that I have not in the least transgressed the sacred bounds of the Former ; I should with more reason hope your Lordships Approbation of my performance therein , than the sense of my own insufficiency will permit me now to entertain . And , therefore , though perhaps my Reasonings have not attained to that perfection and exquisite Rigour , as to satisfie those immoderately Curious Wits of our Age , who think it much beneath them , to acquiesce in any other Evidence but that of Demonstrations Geometrical ( of which notwithstanding , the Argument of these my Discourses is absolutely uncapable ; as I have therein manifested , by clear and undeniable reason ) ; Yet I may comfort my self with this , that my present Undertaking will be Acceptable to as many , as reflect upon the Piety and Good Intention of it ; and my Proofs sufficiently Perswasive for all such , who come not to examine the force of them with invincible Prejudice , and resolution not to be convinced . But , lest I should seem to anticipate your Lordships Iudgement , which being most profound , cannot but be also most Equitable ; it becometh me rather to excuse this my exceeding Presumption , in daring to invoke the Patronage of so Illustrious a Person as your Lordship , to so ill-composed a work ▪ as this is ; which ( with all conceivable Humility and Devotion of Spirit ) I here lay at your feet . Truly , My Lord , I have so many Reasons to alleage , in defence of this my Ambition , that , should I insist upon but the one half of them , this sheet would swell into a Volume greater than the Book it self , which it now ushers to your View . Let it suffice , therefore , I most humbly beseech you , that , had I had no inclinations in my self to this way of testifying my Reverence and Admiration of your Lordships Eminency , both in the Quality of your Person , and Perfections of your Mind ; yet the very rules of common Prudence , and Law of Decency would not have permitted me to make this Addresse to any other , but your self ▪ For , When I reflect upon Greatnesse of Condition ; instantly my thoughts fix upon your Lordship as one , whom your high Birth , and higher Merits ( assisted by the favour of Heaven ) have elevated to a sublime sphear of Honour , wherein , among the Nobility of the First Magnitude , you shine with dazling lustre , such as strikes the eyes of all below with solemn Veneration , and excites a noble Emulation in those Few that move in the same orb of Dignity with you . If I consider greatnesse of Virtue ; I need look no further then upon your Lordship , in whom all Heroical Virtues are so transcendently conspicuous , that they seem to be Essentially concentred in your very Nature , and as if they were therein met together , on purpose to shew the world , How glorious a thing may result from such a Conflux of Great and Good. If I respect Greatness of Judgment ; whither , even in this Age of Light , should I go but to your Lordship ? Who , having with continued industry cultivated that fertil and capacious field of your Mind , and planted it with all the most usefull Notions in Theology , Metaphysicks , Physicks , Medicine , Law Civil and Common , the Mathematicks , and other Arts and Sciences ; have at length reaped so rich a Harvest of General Knowledge , as might alone plentifully maintain the whole Commonwealth of Letters . Insomuch as all men are ready to confess , that if there be an Universal Oracle in the World , for the solving all Difficulties in Learning , You are it : Nor doth any thing restrain them from accusing you of Engrossing all Science to your self , but your rare Affability , and promptness to impart it to others . Should I look forth for the Chiefest Patron of Learned Men ; the Common People themselves , daily observing so great a Confluence of men of the Long Roab , to the place of your residence , and those too the most eminent in their several Faculties , would soon direct me to your Lordship : And your Favour of Schollars is become so notorious , that I have heard it urged as a chief Cause , why Learning hath of late found such admirable Advancement in our Nation , notwithstanding the check of our unhappy Civill Warres . In fine , should I consult my own particular Obligations ; Gratitude it self would rise up and injoyn me to make this Oblation only to your Lordship ; since from you alone I have received more both of Encouragement and Assistance in my studies , than from the whole World beside ; so that , indeed , your Right to this Homage I now make to your Lordship , doth wholly take away the Freedom of it . What I have said , My Lord , though ( I fear me ) scarce agreeable to your severe Modesty ; is yet fully agreeable with Truth , and as wel known as your Name ; and therefore , without offending the Law of Decency ( as I said afore ) I ought not to have permitted this Treatise to venture abroad into the common Aer , without that Advantage and Protection , which your , and only your Patronage can give it ▪ Nor would Policie have advised me otherwise : for , albeit among my Readers , many may chance to dislike the Book it self ; yet , sure I am , most will like it much the better , for carrying so illustrious a Name in the Epistle ; and the severest Criticks cannot but commend my judgement in the Dedication . Notwithstanding all these Inducements alleageable in favour of my Boldness , I think it safer to cast my self intirely upon your Lordships Charity , for a Forgiveness of it , than to trust in their importance , how grea soever it may seem . And therefore , without being further rude , in disturbing your thoughts from things of more weight and concernment ; I most humbly beg your Lordships gracious Acceptance of this publick acknowledgment , I here make , of that infinite Observance and Thankfulness , which is due to you from , My most Honourd LORD your Lordships most humble , most obedient , and most faithful Servant W : CHARLETON : The Errors of the Press , that have escaped the Eye of the Corrector , though but few and veniall , are yet not so soon excused , as mended , by reading Affectation for affection , in the 10. line of the 10. page . And , for ane , in 22. l. of the 25. page . Coppices , for Coppies , in the 2. l. of the 30. page . Silence , for silense , in the 1. l. of the 62. page . Contrast , for Contract , in the 9. l. of the 71. page . Demonstrateth it self , for demonstrate thits self in the 19. l. of the 72. page . Immaterial , for immortal , in the 1. l. of the 85. page . Nightly , for mightly , in the 14. l. of the 127. page . No other encouragment , for no other other , & in the 1. l. of the 138. page . Obelisckes , for obeliks , in the 1. l. of the 139. page . Contrast , for Contract , in the 18. l. of the 153. page . Make , for moke , in the 22. l. of the 165 page ▪ An Advertisement to the READER . AMong the Ancient Philosophers ( as you may remember ) nothing was more frequent , than to deliver their opinions and documents , as wel Physical as Moral , in the plain and familiar way of Dialogue ; and the Reasons , that induced them thereunto , are not unworthy consideration . For , besides the opportunity both of commemorating their worthy Friends , and of introducing several occasional and digressive speculations , that might be , perhaps , nor lesse grateful , nor lesse useful , than the principal Argument proposed ; they thereby gave themselves the advantage of freely alleaging the various and different Conceptions and Perswasions of Men , concerning the subject , which they had designed to discuss : Which in the stricter method of Positive and Apodictical Teaching , they could not with equal conveniency do ; And how much better we may judge of the truth of any Theorem , when we have heard as wel the principal Reasons that impugne , as those that assert it , is obvious to common observation . Hereunto may be added , that a Discourse digested into the form of a familiar Conference , doth by its variety delight , and by its natural freedom and familiarity more gently insinuate it self into the Mind ; as is assured by Experience . New , when you have reflected upon these Considerations , you clearly understand what were the main Motives , which induced the Author of this Treatise , to dispose his Collections and solitary Meditations , on this excellent subject , the Immortality of Mens Souls , into a Dialogue consisting of Three Persons , the one Propugning , another Impugning that most comfortable Tenent , and the third impartially Determining their Differences . But yet ( as I have heard ) He had one inducement more to this manner of writing ; and that was , that being not long since in France , and invited to discourse of the same Argument , He delivered the substance of all that is here spoken by one of the Interlocutors ( viz. Athanasius ) in a free Colloquy , betwixt Himself and two of his honour'd Friends , as they were recreating and reposing themselves in Luxenburg Garden in Paris . So that in the Circumstances of this Confabulation , there is nothing of Fiction , besides that of Names proper to each of the Speakers . And , as for those ; the Parts they bear in the Discourse , sufficiently discover their Derivations . Henry Herringman . The Contents in Scheme . The Immortality of the Human Soul is Demonstrated by Reasons . 1 Physical , desumed from her 1 Operations , viz 1. Volition or Willing 1 Her proper & most agreeable Object , which is Bonum Honestum , repugnant ( for the most part ) to Bonum Delectabile & Sensibile . 2 Freely , and upon deliberation . 2 Intellection 1 Pure , or distinct from Imagination 2 Reflex , in which she understands her self to be Intellectuall , and her owne Intelligence . 3 Of Universals , abstracted ▪ from Singularity ▪ Matter . 2 Objects which are all things Corporeal . Incorporcal , & those most properly ▪ 2 Moral , desumed from the 1 Univerall Consent of all Men , of all Ages , Nations ▪ Religions . 2 Appetite of Immortality naturally inherent in all men . 3 Necessity of Justice Divine . Haec ipsa Philosophorum Meditatio est , Animum à corpore solvere ▪ atque segregare . Plato in Phaedo . THE IMMORTALITY , OF THE HUMAN SOUL , Demonstrated by the Light of Nature . DIALOGVE THE FIRST . The Interlocutors . LUCRETIVS , ATHANASIVS , ISODICASTES . Lucretius . WEll met , my deare and honored Athanasius ; Thus to encounter you , I am sure , is more then a good omen : It is a happinesse in present . Athanasius . I wish it may be so , Lucretius ; but , when I reflect upon my owne unworthinesse , and want of power to be serviceable so my Friends , in any proportion to my respects , or the honour I receive in their commands ; I cannot easily be so vaine , as to conceive , I can be an occasion of Happinesse to you , in any kind . However , let me assure you , both of my joy to see you , and my readinesse to serve you . Lucretius . Ah! Athanasius , I am already convinc'd of both . I am not so unacquainted with the exteriour Characters of the Passions , as not plainely to perceive the evidences of joy in your countenance . The serenity of your aspect , the pleasant smoothnesse of your forhead , the vivacity and lustre of your eyes , and the unusuall sanguine tincture of your cheeks , are perfect demonstrations of that Passion within you , which with a sudden yet gratefull violence causeth an effusion of blood and spirits towards the habit of the body ; as if the Soul , impatient of delay and distance , dispatch'd those her Emissaries to meet and bring in her beloved object . And , as for your singular Humanity , and generous inclination to oblige , by doing good offices ; the happy experience I have had of that , hath long since confirmed me , that , if there be any such thing as a perfect Friend left in the World , certainely you are that thing , where once you are pleas'd to professe a Dearenesse . But , why do I injure my selfe , in deferring that content , this faire opportunity offers me , in your conversation ; while I endeavour to prevent your further profession of that sincerity and truth , I long ago knew to be inherent and essentiall to your very Souls Pray therefore , let me borrow you , for an hour or two , from your meditations or other serious imployments , that we may not onely solace our selves , with recalling to mind our ancient Caresses , in the dayes of youth , innocence and peace , and mutually congratulate each others health and safety , after so many troubles , dangers , and changes of Fortune , as the late Civill Warres in England hath driven us upon : but also revive that quondam custome of ours , when we were Fellow-Collegiates in Oxford , of discoursing freely and calmely of some Argument or other in Philosophy . For , though I have not beene so good a husband of my time , as I might have been , nor improved the severall opportunities of augmenting my small stock of learning , that some yeares travell towards the South , and frequent hearing the most eminent professors of all Arts & Sciences , in forraigne Universities offered me ; yet , let me tell you , I have not beene altogether a stranger to study , nor utterly lost my familiarity with the Muses . Nay more , since the day I first ventured abroad into the World , I have had no Mistresse that held any confiderable room in my thoughts , but One , and that the very same I have many times observed you to court , with the strongest desires and strictest devotion imaginable . Athanasius . Who I ? pray Sir , who was that ? I doe not remember I ever tooke Cupid for any other than an imaginary Deity , or that I resign'd up the rains of my will and Affections into the unsteady hands of a Woman . Sometimes perhaps , I have so far comply'd with the incitements of my youth and blood , as to seeke to please my selfe in the company and favour of a handsome Woman , for divertisement ▪ But I was alwaies too well aware of their Tyranny , ever to put my selfe seriously and durably under their government . Lucretius . Alas Sir , you mistake me . I doe not meane a Woman ; but Her , upon whom women usually transfer the blame of all their imperfections , Nature . Athanasius . Her , indeed , I have courted long and zealously , and intend to dy her Admirer . For , though it be a great while since I became conscious of the vast distance betwixt us , and of my incapacity to satisfie my desires in the knowledge of so much as the least part of Her ; yet my desires are still the same , and I discover such an infinite variety of fresh beauties & excellencies in her every day , that but to gaze upon them at distance , & view Her in the weake and pale reflections made in the glasse of my own Reason , I finde the most pleasant & ravishing employment , my minde is capable of , and which me thinks sufficiently compensates all the Labours and Difficulties I meet with in my pursuit of her . And if this bee that Mistresse , you have so long affected , I esteem you singularly happie in your Choice , and my selfe happie in having such a Rivall , as may promote my Addresses , and yet at the same time further his owne . Lucretius . And I beleeve I shall likewise dy , as I have lived , Her humble Admirer too . For , I have more reason then you , considering the vast advantage you have over me , in Wit , perspicacity , and judgement ; and that your profession daily furnisheth you with variety of fresh observations and usefull experiments ( for , the Art of Medicine is the best , if not the onely Practical Philosophy we have , and who so enquires into the operations of Nature , by no other light than that of Books and solitary speculations , shall in the end find his head full of specious Termes , but empty of true and solid Science . ) I say , considering this , I have more reason than you to despaire of ever attaining to the least degree of Familiarity and privacy with so divine a Model , as she is . And I confesse ingenuously to you , that after all my studious applications to Her , for so many yeares together , and all my best endeavours to insinuate my selfe into her neerer acquaintance , I can get no further then to discover , that she is like the Sun , the more we fixe our eyes upon her , still the lesse we discern of her ; that she is an immense Ocean , too deepe for the sounding line of Man's reason ever to reach Her bottom : and ( in a word ) that betwixt Us , who call our selves Philosophers , Secretaries of Nature , &c. and the Illiterate , who calmely acquiesce in the simple information of their senses , thereis no other difference , but what consisteth wholly in Opinion : We flatter our selves with a beleef , that we know more than really we do ; and they remaine free from the disquiet of that curiosity , which occasions our delusion ; they neither know nor beleeve they know ; we only beleeve we know . And yet , for all this discouragement , I am still constant in my affections to Her , and my Soul as eager and hot in the pursuit , as if it expected to carry Her clearely in the end . So that I cannot but stay heer a litle , and wonder at the strange temper of my Mind , which is still possess'd with a strong desire of what I see no possibility ever to enjoy ; especially when I reflect upon what I have been taught , by such as were well skil'd in the nature of Passions , that Love is alwaies accompanied with Probability of Fruition , which is the reason we much oftner observe persons of high rank to become enamour'd on their inferiors , than the contrary . This I am sure of , that this uncessant desire of knowledge must be Natural , and coessential to the Soul of Man ; or else it must be a Production of Opinion , as sundry other Appetites are . And , if it be ingrafted into our minds , by Natures owne hand , methinks it should be more capable of satisfaction ; for , Nature doth never institute any thing in vaine , but commonly provides meanes for the expletion of each Appetite she createth . But , if it be not Natural , and the effect only of Presumption ; how comes it to be so Universall ? there being no man , though nere so rude and savage , who doth not perceive his Mind to be under the sovereignty of this Affection , more or lesse : nay , as I remember , I have read a discourse of yours , wherein you have proved that all the Actions of our lives are in some sort or other the effects of this Tendency to Science . And thus you see , Athanasius into what a labyrinth I have unexpectedly brought my thoughts ; nor can I hope to extricate my selfe , unlesse you shall please to lend me the Clue of your stonger and more decisive reason . Athanasius . Lend you the clue of my Reason , say you ? Alack , alack , Lucretius , I well perceive , your long conversation which the French , hath infected you with the humour of saying a great deale more then you thinke , and tempting your Friends modesty with attributes of more value ▪ than you know belongs to them , as if I could be so arrogant as to undertake the solution of a Ridle , which Lucretius really finds too hard for him . No , Lucretius , no , I am too conscious of my owne dulnesse and ignorance , ever to entertaine a conceipt so extreamely vaine . But , come , I perceive your drift . I know you to be one of Epicurus's Disciples , and indeed the most eminent amongst them ; and having long since digested and heightned all your Masters Arguments , for the Mortality of the Human Soul ; knowing me to be irreconcileable to that uncomfortable and dangerous Opinion , you would now take the opportunity of experimenting the force of them upon so weake an Adversary as my selfe . Not that I think a person of your wit and acutenesse can be so insensible of the admirable and almost divine operations of that noble Essence , even while she is lodged in Walls of clay , as to be seriously of his perswasion , That she is onely a certaine Contexture or disposition of thinnest and sublilest Atoms , and so upon the change of that disposition by death , is immediately dissolved , and those Atoms againe dispersed in the infinite Inanity or Space ; but , that you would willingly heare what I am able to alleage to the contrary . Lucretius . Will you beleeve me , Athanasius ? I had no such designe upon you : Nor can I easily conceive , how you could from that doubt I proposed to you , draw any such suspition . Athanasius . No ? Whither then could that discourse of yours tend ? Is it not plaine that the Soul 's insatiate and unlimited desire of knowledge , is a good Argument of her being Immaterial , and consequently indissoluble ? Lucretius . O , now I apprehend you . I remember indeed I have heard that urged , and as a mighty Argument in the Schooles , but at present I had no reflection thereupon . However , I thanke you for giving me the hint , and humbly beg your pursuite of it . 'T is a Theam worthy so strong a brain as yours , and ( pardon my freedom ) I think you are oblig'd to satisfie the expectation of the World , by divulging your Conceptions concerning that Subject . For , as I remember , in the Conclusion of your Physiology ( which I had the good fortune not long since to see and peruse , in the Iesuits Library here in Paris , and with more content and benefit to my mind , than your modesty will permit me to expresse to you ) you promise a second part thereof , in way of discovery of the Nature and Immortality of the Reasonable Soul of man. Athanasius . Truth is , I there said somwhat of my Hopes and willingnesse to finish that structure ( how slight and confused soever it were ) by addition of what seem'd requisite to make it entire , which is the Consideration of the nature of Souls ; as well those of Unreasonable , as those of Reasonable Creatures : And this some , and you among the rest , have been pleas'd to interpret for a promise . But , grant it be so ; Yet , sure I am , it was only Conditionall , and in case I should receive the friendly Approbation of such judicious persons as had survey'd the first Story of that building , for my encouragement , and obtain Leisure and Quiet , for my better effecting the rest . And how far I have been from receiving that , or obtaining these , I suppose you cannot be ignorant . Lucretius . Yes really I am . Athanasius . That 's somwhat strange . Why then give me leave to tell you , that , instead of that Candor in the forgivenesse of my lapses , and that approbation of my toyl and industry , which I look'd for from my Readers ; I have reaped no other fruit of all my labours in that long and difficult Work , but most severe , inhumane , uncharitable , unjust Censures . Some condemning me of too much youthfull Heighth and Affection in the style ; others accusing me of usurping other men's Notions , Maxims , and Experiments for my own , without so much as naming the Authors , to whose bounteous Wit and Industry I was beholding for their discovery and communication ; a third sort reproaching me with inconsideration , in assuming a taske of weight so vastly disproportionate to the slender nerves of my judgment ; and a fourth scandaling me with negligence in the duties of my Profession , and invading the certainty of all its Rules and Maxims , while I wholly addicted my selfe to the Innovation of its Fundamentalls . Now if you can allow this for encouragement , I shall the lesse wonder at your expectation of my proceeding to the accomplishment of that worke , which ( I call Heaven to witnesse out of pure devotion to knowledge ; and commendable ambition to be serviceable to the Commonwealth of Learning in proportion to my talent ) I had proposed to my self to enterprise : Otherwise , I hope , you will not envy me , the Peace I aim at , in being henceforth silent , and employing all my Collections , Observations , and Speculations Philosophicall , only to the furnishing the little Cabinet of my own brain . I have now at length learned , that Sapere domi , to endeavour the acquisition of Science in private , ought to be the principall scope of a Wise man : Nor shall I easily suffer my self to be diverted from the resolution I have taken , constantly to put that excellent Lesson in practice . And as for Leisure and Quiet ( without both which , you well know , no man can compile a work of any solidity and accuratenesse , in any part of Learning whatsoever ) I have been so farre from enjoying either of them , that on the contrary , from the time I first published that Physiology you mentioned , even to this very day , I have been embroil'd in as many troubles and distractions , as malice , persecution , and sharp adversity could accumulate upon me . I have been driven from my Country , House , Family , Books , Friends , and Acquaintance ; and wholly depriv'd of all the chief endearments of life ; insomuch that I am a perfect stranger to any such thing as comfort , but what I sometimes form to my self out of the assurance of my Innocence , and the hope of that compensation that is ordained for Patience in unjust sufferings . In a word , Lucretius , ( for as it sharpneth the sense of my afflictions in my self , for me to recount them ; so I know it cannot be , but very unpleasant to you , to hear the miserable adventures of your Friend ) for almost these two last years , I have been continually toss'd up and down by a Tempest of Calamity , which is yet so violent , that the dangers , which threaten me , seem to despise the prevention of that small skill I have in the use of my Compass : My Anchors are lost , my Vessell leaks , the VVinds hurry it from land , and I hourly exspect to sink down-right . Nor can I see how it is possible for me to avoid it , unlesse relief suddenly come from that Divine Power ; by whose permission ( for my chastisement ) it is , that the cruelty and rage of my Enemies have raised this storm against me . Consider , then , whether this be a Condition fit to study in , or whether you could forbear to have an indignation against this folly ; who , being in such a case , should hope to write any thing worthy so judicious and curious an eye , as yours is ? If not , pray cease to reproach me , with having been wanting as well to my self as to the VVorld , in not making good the Promise you urge ; And rather give me your advice how to deport my self as becomes a Philosopher , with Constancy and tranquillity of mind , than strive to aggravate my disquiet , by engaging me to write on so abstruse and difficult a Subject . Lucretius . You have told me enough to change my Curiosity into Sadnesse and Commiseration . I shall not be so rude to exasperate the smart of your wounds , by pressing you further to disclose them to me , nor am I so good a Physician for the Mind , as to prescribe you any more soveraign remedies against Discontent , than what I am sure you well know already . But since you require my advice , I shall bid you look into that Magazine of choice Morall Precepts , which you have been long collecting , and treasuring up in your own breast : For , there , I am sure , you will find such Cordialls , and vertuous Antidotes , as will secure your Soul from being discompos'd at the worst that evill Fortune can do against you , and heighten your thoughts and Resolutions to a generous defiance of temporall crosses , and a perfect Contempt of the VVorld . And among the rest , as you meet with it , be sure to dwell longest upon this rule , Never suffer your Spirit to sink ; still remembring , that Vertue is like precious Odours , most fragrant , when incens'd or crush'd ; and that the extremities of worthy Persons are usually annihilated in the consideration of their own deservings , but alwaies overcome in the end , by their bravery and magnanimity shew'd in the entertainment of them . VVhich I the rather point at , because I know you to be of a Melancholy disposition , and such commonly suffer adverse accidents to make too deep impressions upon their mind , which is thereupon apt to dejection , which some have defined to be the first step to finall Despair ; And how difficult a thing it is to raise him up , who helps to depress himself ; I need not tell you . It will not be amisse also for you , often to have recourse to gentle and Philosophicall Divertisements , and to admit conferences with your Friends , touching some Argument or other , that you are able to discourse of familiarly , and without torturing the brain , and putting your Imagination upon the rack : For , by this means , you shall insensibly wear out the Characters your misfortunes and distresses have stampt in your Soul , and find a pleasure in taking occasionall reviews of the severall usefull Notions filed up in the rolls of your Memory , and at the same time , both benefit and endear your company . Athanasius , Sir , your Counsel is excellent , and I shall make it my chief care to let you see how much I prize it , by my endeavours to follow it precisely . But , know withall , Lucretius , that the foresight , I tell you , I have of my approaching ruine , as to all that Fortune laies claim to as hers , doth not imply either my Fear of it , or want of resolution to sustein that , and even Death it self , in what shape soever it shall present it self , without stooping one hair's breadth below that pitch of spirit , that belongs to an honest Mind to conserve in all encounters . 'T is one thing to previse a danger , and another to be startled and grow pale at the stroak of it : I well understand the value of the goods of the Mind above those of Fortune : And if I can be so much in favour with Heaven , as to be endowed but with the least portion of the Former , I shall easily part with the Latter , and account my self rich enough in the exchange . Be confident therefore , that so long as I can conserve my integrity , and the peace of my Conscience entire , I shall also keep my Spirit from dejection , nor will it be in the power of my Adversaries ever to depresse it , with all the weights of adversity they can heap upon me . As for that way of Divertisement , by free and unbiassed Philosophicall Conferences you speak of ; I approve it as very available both to the gentle weaning of the Mind from sad apprehensions , and the exercise of its more agreeable Habits . But , I fear me , you do as that Physician , who prescribed his Patient a dose of the grand Elixir , in the yolk of a Phoenix egge ; You refer me to a Medicine I cannot possibly obtain . For , though among the French there be many excellent Wits , and men eminent for their abilities in all kinds of Learning ; Yet I observe them generally to be of a temper more fit for hot and testy Disputes , then calm and peaceable Debates , in way of Disquisition : and commonly , they are so fierce and ardent in defence of their own preconceived opinions , that they account it a piece of disrespect and incivility in any man that seems to doubt , or call the verity of them in question . So that a Noble person of our Nation , who hath lived long in this City , and is able to give a true Character of the French Genius , as to this particular , was pleas'd to tell me within these few daies , that their humour of prejudice to all that is not their own , though really much better then their own , extends also to their Tenents in Arts and Sciences ; And that it would be hard for me to find a Scholar among them , who would not rather lose the opportunity of investigating a truth , by an equitable and patient comparing of the strength of other mens reasons with his own , then not appear to have clearly understood the full nature of the thing , before it was proposed . Now , how highly disagreable this would be to my Genius , which is so averse to all contests and passionate Altercations , and which alwaies brings me to Philosophicall Discourses only as to Enquiries , not final Determinations , and with perfect indifferency to either side , not caring at all whether my Allegations , or my Opponent's , give the greater light to certainty , so I attain to any degree of certainty in the end : I say , how disagreeable this Overweening of the French , would be to me in Conversation , you may easily conjecture . Besides I am yet but beginning to speak their Language , and so am uncapable of the benefit and pleasure of their Colloquies . And though many of them are very great Masters of the Latine , and write very elegantly therein ; Yet when they come to speak it , you may perceive such a tedious redundancy of words flowing from their tongues , as will sufficiently convince you , that they cannot suddenly translate the conceptions of their minds into another Language , without retaining the verbosity of their own . Which I find exceedingly troublesome to me , in respect of the narrownesse of my capacity , that causeth me many times to lose the notion and sense , in the long and strict attention to the expressions ; Just as when we meet some person in brave and gawdy clothes , the waving of his Feather and Ribons , and the Lustre of his Lace , so distract and take off our sight , that we see the lesse of his Face ; and when he is past by us , we remember more of his dresse , than his stature , complexion and aspect . And thus you see how unlikely it is for me to meet with the Physick you prescribe me , here among the French. And as for the English that now reside here ; I am not acquainted with any one ( except your self ) who makes it his businesse to pursue the favour of those severe and reserved Muses , that you and I so much adore . Some doubtlesse there are of the same contemplative inclination ; But ( as I tell you ) I have not encountred so much felicity as to know any one of them ; and if I did , without good experience of his candor , and some degree of intimacy , I should think it an unpardonable Soloecisme in good manners , to molest him with the importunity of my Conversation , which savours of nothing so much as of sowrnesse and melancholy . So that unlesse you please to be the remedy you advise , I see no probability of my obtaining it , till I return into England . Lucretius . What you have now remarked of the French's being generally great Opinionators , my observation also confesseth to be altogether true . Nor are there among our Country-men , in this place , many of those we call Votaries of Nature ; Yet I can introduce you to the knowledge of a Person , noble by Birth , and of high condition , but infinitely more noble by the Heroick endowments of his better part , and the large measure of Knowledge he hath acquired in all things of most use , to the well government of our selves , in all the various occurrences of life . He is a prudent Estimator of mens actions and opinions , but no rigid Censor of either . A valiant Assertor of truth , yet far from Tyranny ; where he finds an errour , as alwaies reflecting on human frailty , and the obscurity of things in themselves . He well knows how to overcome , but not at all to triumph ; And when he hath overcome , you can hardly perceive he ever contended . For , he doth not seem so much to refute , as to teach , rather gently insinuating verity , then strugling in the detection of falshood . Curious in the collection of Books , diligent in reading them , accurate in examining what they deliver , & alwaies more favourable to Reason , then to Authority , unlesse in matters of Faith. A great Lover of Experiments in Physick and Chymistry ; Yet no waies infected with the vanities of the one , or frauds of the other . A friend to all learned & judicious men of your Profession , he meets with ; and a Patron to the Art it self . Witnesse the vast paines and cost he hath lately bestow'd upon his Garden , wherein are now growing more then two thousand six hundred Plants , of different sorts ; Each of them being , according to admirable method , dispos'd into a particular Classis , conteining all the species referrible to their proper Genus or Tribe : So that considering the great variety , and orderly ranging of the Plants , I cannot think it much inferior to the famous Seminary of Vegetables at Bloys , belonging to the Duke of Orleans . Witness likewise the spacious Elaboratory , he hath caused to be erected in his house , and furnished with Furnaces , Vessells , and Instruments of all sorts ; Which he imployes rather for his recreation , and the extraction of the most virtual and purest parts of Herbes , and other medicinal Simples , and the distillation of choise Cordial Waters and Spirits , for the conservation of health , than in practising the impostures of Pseudo ▪ chymists , that pretend to the mysterious Art of Transmutation of Metalls , and making the Philosophers stone , as they call it . And yet I have known when he hath permitted one of those Bastards of Hermes , therein to run through a whole Progresse , or course of Spagirical operations , in order to the production of the Seminal tincture of Gold : But , it was only , that the man himself might be the better convinc'd , and the World satisfi'd of the folly and knavery of such attempts , by the constant unsuccessefullness of them . In a word , Athanasius ; he is a perfect Virtuoso , one infinitely above the best Character I can give him : Nor do I herein aim at praising him , but assuring you , that in him you may meet with the most pleasing and satisfactory Conversation in the World. Athanasius . Even now you mention'd the Philosophers stone , Lucretius , and sure this excellent Person you describe , is it : For if the Elixir be only Virtue in a Parable , as I know some wise men have affirmed , why may not I think him so ? But who is it , I pray ? Lucretius . I am sure you have often heard his name , and perhaps seen him too : 'T is IS ODIC ASTES . Athanasius . I know him both by sight and fame . He was with us in Oxford , in time of the late Warres , and in great favour and trust with the King his Master . And now I am confirmed of the truth of all you have said of him , having heard as much from sundry others of worth and Credit . But will you adventure the reputation of your Judgment so far as to commend me to his notice ? I fear , you dare not . Lucretius . Yes I do , and doubt not to receive his thanks for my Labour , for I know you to be singularly able in your Profession , and as free in the communication of any thing you have found conducible to the advancement of it , or any other part of Learning : And either of those two qualities ( if you had no other that were commendable ) is sufficient to endear you to him in a short time . Athanasius . When will you permit me to wait upon you to him ? Lucretius . Even when you please : What say you of going thither this present evening ? For his house is not far off this place , and about this hour of the day he is usually at leasure , and disposed to admit visits . We shall find him , I suppose , viewing his Nursery of Plants , and keeping a Diary of their short lives ; recording in the margine of his Catalogue , which of them are now in their youth or immaturity , which in their full vigour and growth , and which beginning to decline ; And noting also which is in the blossome , which in the Flower , which in the Seed , which fit to be cropt , that so he may be exact in knowing the true season when each kind attains to its pride and perfection of Virtue . For , at this time of the year , and till the latter end of August , this commonly is his recreation every evening , in case the weather be favourable . So that if you think fit , I will conduct you thither instantly . Athanasius . With all my heart ; I am not for deferring happinesse one moment . Lucretius . Content ; But let me advertise you of one thing before we go : Though you are a stranger to him in person ; yet he is acquainted with your Genius , by your Writings . You know the saying , Oratio indicat virum . And it is not many daies since I heard him commend your Physiology , and wish you would proceed to publish the remainder of it , concerning the Immortality of the Reasonable Soul. So that assure your self , he will soon find occasion to draw you on to discourse of that subject : Nor can you with civility decline it . Therefore , provide your self for the ambush , by turning over the records of your memory , and rallying your scattered notions , in as good order as you can , upon so short warning . Athanasius . Hear you , Lucretius ; doth this consist with the counsell you gave me , even now , to divert my self from the sense of my misfortunes , by entertaining frank and familiar conferences with ingenious company , without torturing my brain , and racking my imagination ? You are like a Physician , who forbids his patient Wine , and yet can be content to see him drunk , so it be in his company . Do you think I can discourse any whit tolerably of so difficult an Argument , and in such a presence , without great labour of the Mind ? Lucretius . Why not ? having profoundly considered , and frequently revolved the matter in your Mind , before hand , as I am confident you have , or otherwise you would not have given us hopes of your writing a particular Treatise thereupon . Pray , deal ingenuously with me , have you no Adversaria , no First-Draught of that piece you intended , among your Papers ? Athanasius . Some few sheets I have , in which I hastily scribled over my Collections , and First Thoughts , as they chanced to occurr : But disjoynted , without Form , and wanting the decency of connexion and language . But what of that ? Would you have an Architect acquaint you with his design , only by shewing you his Materialls lying confusedly congested together in a heap ? Lucretius . From a view of the Materials , I can guess at the strength and firmnesse of the building intended , though not at the Model or Platform . Therefore , without any further excuses or evasions , be pleased to comply with the desires and expectation of your Friends , either by affording us the liberty of perusing those memorials of your thoughts ; or by abstracting the substance or marrow of them your self , and infusing it into our ears in a brief discourse . Athanasius . I perceive , Lucretius , you well understand the unlimited power you have over me ; otherwise you would not thus have put me upon such a Demonstration of it , as requires me , at the same time , to lay aside my Reason , and resign up my discretion wholly to the conduct of your importune Curiosity . But , that you may see I am all obedience and complacency , where I have once enter'd into a league of amity ; I will no longer consider the hazard of my reputation , in exposing to your Examination ( which I am sure , will be strict enough ) a Summary of those Reasons , which I conceive sufficiently strong and evident to evince the Immortality of the Human Soul , while they yet want due Connexion , and such illustration of Art and Language , as they deserve , and as perhaps I could have bestowed upon them , at my better leisure , and vacancy from sollicitude of mind : I say , I will no longer keep my reputation in the ballance against your Commands , but freely deliver you an Abbreviate of my Notes , touching the subject mentioned . Nor will I defer your satisfaction longer than untill to morrow , about this time ; When , if you please to meet me here in this cool Cypress Walk , in Luxemburgh Garden , you shall hear what I am able to say , concerning that particular . In the mean time , I will go home and look over my papers , and digest the contents of them into the most naturall method I can , upon so short premeditation . If they answer not your expectation , be just in imputing it to your own unreasonable haste ; Which would not allow me convenient time , to cast them in a more uniform mould : If they do , be not so much a Courtier , as to ascribe it to any thing , besides the Goodnesse of the Cause , in defence whereof they are alleaged . Lucretius . My dear Athanasius , my heart is too narrow to contein the joy you have infused into me ; Nor can I expresse the smallest part of that content , which redounds to me from this your most affectionate condescention . And yet I would urge your kindness to a further grant . Athanasius . Of what ? Lucretius . Of somthing , that will conduce to your own advantage , in the end . Athanasius . I shall have but little regard to that , if what you require may but be really gratefull to your self . Pray , therefore , cease henceforth to estimate my readinesse to serve my Friend , by the proportion his requests hold to my own utility an emolument : And freely speak your desire . Lucretius . It is no more , but that you would permit me to interrupt you , now and then , in your discourses , to morrow , when we meet , in case I see occasion of Doubting , or Objecting any thing that seems materiall . For ( as you know ) I am somwhat strict in examining the force of all Arguments proposed to me , especially of such as pretend Evidence and Certitude requisite to full Conviction . I would not willingly admit any Position into my beleif , but what hath past the severest triall of my Reason , I can put it to . Athanasius . Nor shall you , Lucretius , be circumvented or ensnared into an error , by any sophistry of mine . If what I shall urge , in favour of the Soul 's Eternall subsistence after death , shall appeare to you to be lesse cleare or solid , than I apprehend ; pray , detect the invalidity thereof and spare not . Where I am once assur'd of Candor , I love to be opposed . But since you intend to raise Scruples and Objections out of what I shall deliver , and that it is easily possible for you and me to dissent about the preheminence of each others reasonings : me thinks , it were but just , we had some Third person present , whose judgement and equity may qualifie him to play the Arbiter betwixt us , and unto whose decisive Verdict we ought equally to submit our Differences . Lucretius . You have prevented me : Isodicastes , I am confident , will do us the honour to be the Man. I know none so fit , in respect either of the admirable perspicacity of his understanding , or the sincerity and uprightnesse of his judgement : As no Fallacy can escape his remark , so the whole world cannot bribe him to a partial suffrage . And if you approve the choice , I will undertake to prevaile upon him to be present at our conference , and do us that noble office . Athanasius . Pray , let him know withall how far I was from seeking this occasion of his trouble , and that I am not so vainly conceipted of the worth of my notions , as to promise to my self they shall compensate his patience , by adding one mite to that large magazine of knowledge , He is already master of . All I hope for at his hands , is a charitable forgivenesse of my Audacity , in daring to enter the list against so potent an Opponent , concerning so difficult and sublime an Argument , and before so discerning a Judge ; and that with such blunt weapons , as your unexpected and suddaine compulsion of me to the encounter , enforceth me to make use of . Lucretius . Feare not my justice , either in owning the violence I have used , to draw you to comply with my desires , or saving your modesty the labour of prepossessing him with the extreme diffidence you have of your own Abilities . And now we are agreed upon the manner and circumstances of our Duell , pray , let us a little solace our selves with a turne or two in this coole and fragrant walk , into which the neighbouring Orange trees so plentifully transmit the gratefull odour of their flowers . How like you this so much admired Garden ? Doth it not clearely demonstrate to you , how great the additions are , that the beauties of Nature are capable of receiving , from the hand of Art ? Athanasius . I think it worthy as great a share in the spectators wonder , as the vast and magnificent Fabrick to which it is adjoyned . And if it be lawful for us to guesse at the Greatnesse of Princes Minds , as well as at that of their wealth , by the amplitude and sumptuousnesse of the structures they have reared ; I may conjecture , that the Foundresse of this prodigious Pallace , had a Soul in all things equal to the height of her Dignity , and the largenesse of Empire , she once enjoy'd ; For , otherwise her subtile Favorite whom she had raised to that immoderate sublimity of power , as made him fit to be her Competitor for Soveraignty in dominion ; would not have conceived himselfe unstable in his unlimited sway , till he had clipt the wings of her aspiring Soul , and left her embroyld in the jealousie of the King , her Sonne : who being perswaded , that the lustre of his Diadem was eclipsed by her shining in the same Sphere ; readily embraced their counsell , who suggested that the greatnesse of her policy and aimes , was never to be obscured , but by removing her into another climate , by a kind of gentle Banishment . Had she been of as soft and flexible a spirit as the King was , whose power he employ'd to her suppression ; doubtlesse , Monsier the Cardinall had never thought her worthy the honour of his Fears . Great envie is alwaies a certaine signe of great Merit . But to leave my unseasonable reflection on the Queen , who raised this stupendious Building , and answer your demand of my opinion of the Garden ; I tell you , in a word , it is the most Princely I ever saw , for the largenesse of the ground or Contents , for the uniformity it holds to the designe of the House , for the freedome of Prospect from all the principall roomes thereof , and for the variety of entertainments it affords , according to the severall seasons of the yeare . Here are Grotta's , Groves , and places of shade , for Estivation ; and artificiall Fountaines perpetually spouting up streames of water , to attemper the fervour of the air , in heat of Summer : Spatious and open walks to take in the more temperate and refreshing breath of the Spring : and arched Piazza's that afford equall shelter from Sun , cold or raine . Here is a peculiar Garden for each moneth in the yeare , in which things of beauty and sweetnesse are then in season . Here is variety well sorted , Magnificence and Curiosity gracefully united ; and yet a Natural wildenesse so wel imitated in all , that the loveliness & perfection of the whole , seemes to consist in the neat disguise of the symmetry of the parts : so that Art is almost lost in the excellency of it self , & visible only in dissembling a confusion . Here Palats & Noses of all sorts are exactly accommodated and strangers usually dispute , whether the sight or Tast , or Smell be the better provided for : nor is it easie to decide the controversie , where each sense is feasted even to satiety . Here are litle Coppies of Orenge trees , environed with hedges of Jasmine ; as if the Planter had respect to the mixture of odours in the aer , and intended — Lucretius . Hold , Athanasius , if the distance doth not deceive me , yonder comes ISODICASTES , the wise and good — Yes it is He , I am sure . I can distinguish him thus far off , by the gravity of his Habit , and the sober evennesse of his pace , with a naturall decorum and comlinesse , expressing the majesty and serenity of that noble Principle , which gives motion to his body from within . Athanasius . Pray put me not out of countenance , by telling him before my face , how inconsiderate I have been , in accepting your challenge against to morrow . Doe not insult over the facility and good nature of your friend , by boasting the force of your influence upon him . Lucretius . I doe consider your excesse of modesty , and , therefore , will not touch upon our appointment , while you are present . But , now he drawes neer , let us not be rude in seeming insensible of the singular respect due to his quality and worth : but mend our pace , and , by our speed to meet him civilly , confesse our transport of joy to have the happy opportunity — Noblest and worthiest Isodicastes , your most humble servant . Isodicastes . Witty Lucretius , I am yours , and glad to encounter you thus unexpectedly . Lucretius . I ask your leave Sir to present to your knowledge , this friend of mine here , a Person of more than common merit , which is more than I need tell you , when you have heard me name him . Isodicastes . I remember , I have seen this Gentlemans face often , or one extreamly like him , at least : But cannot , on the suddain recall to mind , or where , or when . Lucretius . In Oxford , Sir , in time of the Warrs , doubtlesse , if at all . For , He was scarcely arrived at the twentieth year of his age , when the flames of our intestine commotions first brake forth into open hostility : And since they were extinguish't in the ruines of the Royall party , you have been constantly resident here in France , whither he is but lately come . But , not to hold you longer in suspence , This is Athanasius , of whom I have heard you speak , upon occasion of some new opinions and experiments , in the Physiology he not long since published . Isodicastes . Worthy Athanasius , fortune could not have brought me to the knowledge of any Person , who had aforehand a greater share in my esteem then your self . I am an honourer of your Art , and so cannot but have a singular value and respect for any , that endeavours by his studies and writings to contribute towards the advancement of it , as I am satisfied you have done . Athanasius . Most honour'd Sir , I am not conscious to my self of any thing in me , worthy the honour of your slightest notice , but barely my Good-will to Learning , and the sincere Devotion and reverence I bear toward your noble self , who are both so great an Ornament , and Patron of it . And if you shall vouchsafe to admit me to the lowest degree in your good Grace and favourable regard , upon so small an account as that : You will demonstrate the vast extent of your Charity , in obliging a poor and inconsiderable thing , and one that hath nothing but the simplicity of his Zeal , to qualifie him for your service . Isodicastes . You are unreasonably modest , thus to diminish yourself , Athanasius : And as immoderate in your overvaluation of my Capacity to expresse my affection to Learning and Learned Men , otherwise than only by the content I take in their conversation . But , let us leave this formality of Complements to young Courtiers , as savouring of lesse plainnesse and freedom , than ought to be amongst the Votaries of Truth and Science , when they meet together : And give me leave to enquire of you ( for , it seems you came but lately thence ) somwhat concerning the state of Learning now in England . I have been told of great Discoveries made , by men of your Faculty there , in Anatomy , Diseases , and their waies of Cure ; Far different from the Principles and Doctrine of the Antients . I have heard also , that the Mathematicks are in high reputation among you , and have received much , if not of improvement , yet of illustration , from the happy industry of some , in our Universities . Pray , therefore , let it not be troublesome to you , to give us some hints of the particulars , wherein the Wits of our Nation have of late been so highly beneficiall to the Commonweal of Philosophy . Athanasius . Sir , you have laid a command upon me , which is impossible for me to obey , without shamefully betraying my own ignorance , and ( by a disadvantageous representation of them ) much disparaging the noble successes of those Heroicall Wits among our Country-men , who have addicted themselves to the Reformation and Augmentation of Arts and Sciences , and made a greater Progresse in that glorious design , than many ages before them could aspire to , notwithstanding all their large hopes , specious promises , and manifold attempts . Neverthelesse , being your command , I shall strive to yeeld obedience to it , so far forth at least , as to recount to you in brief , what upon the suddain I can call to mind , of the most considerable Novelties in Naturall Philosophy , Medicine , the Optiques , Astronomy and Geometry , found out by the ingeny and labours of men now living in England , & as yet in the prime of their strength and years . In the Colledge of Physicians in London , ( which without offence to any thing , but their own Modesty , I may pronounce to be the most eminent Society of men , for Learning , Judgement and Industry , that is now , or at any time hath been , in the whole World ) you may behold Solomons House in reality . Some there are , who constantly imploy themselves in dissecting Animals of all kinds , as well living as dead ; and faithfully recording all singularities that occur to their observation , both in the severall species , and individualls : That so they may come to know , what is perfectly naturall , what preternatural , what rare and monstrous among the parts of them ; And also what resemblance there is betwixt the Conformation of the parts in the body of Man , and those in the bodies of other Animals , ordained by Nature to the same , or like and equivalent uses . So that it will be hard for any man to bring thither any Fish , Bird , or Insect , whose Emtrails these genuine Sons of Democritus are not already intimately acquainted with ; or , at least , which they will not with admirable dexterity and skill anatomize without confusion of the smallest Organ , and instantly explore the proper office of each Organical part , by remarking the Figure , Substance , Vessells , and situation of it . And , I have some reason to put you in hope , that ere long you may see a Collection of most of the Anatomical Experiments that these Men have made , in the bodies of Beasts , Birds , Fishes , and Insects of various sorts ; together with the Figure of each , and all its principle Organs , expressed to the life in Copper-Cuts ; and an exact account as well of the Analogy , as Dissimilitude that is betwixt them and others of consimilar uses in Man , the grand Rule or Prototype to all inferior Creatures . Which is a Method , certainly , of inestimable use towards the complement of Natural History , and the only way to perfect that Comparative Anatomy , whose defect the Lord St. Alban so much complained of , in our Art. Others there are , who daily investigate arguments to confirm and advance that incomparable invention of Doctor Harvey , the Circulation of the Blood ; And have already brought the Doctrine thereof to so high a degree of perfection , that it is not only admitted and admired by all the Schools in Europe , but the advancers of it also are able to solve most of the difficult phaenomena in Pathology , only by that Hypothesis ; And frequently effect such Cures , by having respect thereunto in their intentions and prescripts , as well in Cronique , as Acute Diseases , as could not be hoped from any other ground-work , or supposition formerly laid ; At least not with equall correspondence to the true method of Healing , which ought to be deduced from Principles of the greatest evidence and certainty in Nature , among which certainly this of the Circulation is the chiefest . And though I deny not , but the like Cures may have been performed by Physicians , who never dream't of any such thing , as the continual motion of the blood from the heart , by the Arteries to the outward parts of the body , and thence back again , by the veins ? , into the heart ; but rested in the Antique opinion of a difference betwixt Arterial and Venal blood , both as to substance and uses : Yet I may safely affirm , that the Remedies used by them , wrought the effects aimed at , by waies altogether accidental , and beside the direct scope of those , who gave them ; And to do a cure only by Accident , you well know , is much below the ambition of a Rational Physician , who ought to have a firm and well-grounded Theory of the Faculties and Virtues proper to each particular Instrument he is to make use of , in rectifying the disordered Oeconomy of nature in mans body . For my own part ( I speak ingenuously ) I am so well satisfied of the Verity of this Harvean Circulation , and have so seriously considered the great advantages that may be made of it , in order to the ennobling the Art of Medicine , by reducing the maxims of it from obscure and conjectural , to evident and demonstrative ; And by accommodating the same to the explanation of most of the Apparences in Pathology : That I have had some thoughts of undertaking to justify all the Aphorisms of Hippocrates , which concern the Nature and Sanation of Diseases , by reasons and considerations deduced meerly from this one Fountain , the Hypothesis of the Circulation of the blood ; And if my troubles had not deprived me of leisure , I had ere this made some progress in that enterprise . But , I have digressed , and ask your pardon for it . There are , moreover , among the members of this venerable Society , who pursuing the hint , some few years since , given them by Iacobus Mullerus , a German , in an Academical exercise , of the nature of Animal and Voluntary Motion ; have gone far toward the explication of the reasons and manner of the Motions of the Muscles , by the principles of Mechanicks : An enterprise of great difficulty , and long desiderated , as leading us to understand the Geometry observed by the Creator in the fabrick of the Microcosme , and the verification of Anatomical assertions by demonstrations Mathematical . The same persons likewise have demonstrated , that we goe , because we fall , i. e. that each step we advance , is but a shifting the body to a fresh Centre of Gravity ; And our Rest but a remaining or fixing of it upon the same : As also that in progression , the Head of a man is moved through more of space , than his feet , by almost one part of four , in respect of its greater distance from the Centre of the Earth ; which indeed was toucht , and only toucht upon , by that prodigie of Mathematical subtleties , Galileo , in his Second Dialogue de Mundo . There are also of these Miners of Nature , who have found out more probable and commodious Uses for the Glandules , or fatty Kernells scituate in divers parts of mans body , than were assigned unto them by all antecedent Anatomists . For , whereas Those generally conceived them to have been intended by Nature to no nobler an end , than either for the Imbibition or dreining of superfluous humours inundating the parts adjacent to them ; Or for the susteining of Veins , Arteries , and Nerves in their progresse from part to part ; These have discovered , that some Glandules serve for the preparation of the Succus Nutritius , or juice that nourisheth the whole body ; That others are official to the sequestration of some lesse profitable and disagreeable parts of the same nutritive juice , or Vital Nectar ; And that a third sort of them are ordained for reduction of those same lesse profitable parts , after their separation or streining , back again into the masse of blood , by the small veins that are contiguous to them . And among these likewise there is one ( A person of singular note , for his Universal Learning , and indefatigable industry in Disquisition ) who aiming to promote the certainty of these New Tenents : ( 1. ) That , according to the Anatomical observations of Ioh. Pecquet , a young Physician of Diepp in Normandy , the Chylus is convey'd from the stomach , by the Venae Lacteae , or Milky Veins , into a certain Receptacle , or common promptuary scituate at the bottom of the Mesentery ; and thence transmitted upwards , by a conduit running all along on the inside of the Spine of the back , to the subclavian veins , and so delivered into the right Ventricle of the heart , there to be turned into blood : ( 2. ) That the Liver is not the immediate instrument of Sanguification , but inservient only to the sequestration of the Cholerick parts of the blood , and the conveying the same into the Gall , to be thence excluded into the Duts : ( 3. ) That there is no Anastomosis , or mutual Inosculation betwixt the small branches of the Vena Portae , and those of the Vena Cava , in the substance of the Liver ; as was generally believed from the infancy of Physick , till of late years , when this Gentleman was so happy as to evince the contrary , by ocular demonstration : ( 4. ) That there are certain thin , slender and transparent Vessells , for the most part accompaning the veins , & especially in the liver , ( named Vasa Lymphatica , by Thomas Bartholinus , who seems first to have discovered them , and Lymphe-ducts , by others since ) containing a clear liquor , like water , which they exonerate into the common Receptacle of the Chyle , newly mentioned ; to the end , that being again infused together with so much of the Chyle as enters the veins , into the blood , it may both prevent the Coagulation of it , and also ( in respect of its predisposition to Volatility ) associating it self to the Vital spirits in the Heart and Arteries , promote the Mication , or boyling motion of the blood : And ( 5. ) That the solid parts of the body are not , in the general , nourished by the blood ( which He conceives to be only the fewel of the Vital Flame , or Heat ; and in regard of its great Volatility , and harsh and grating nature , more likely to prey upon and consume , than feed and repair the substance of the solid parts ) but by the sweeter and more unctuous part of the Chylus , drawn up by the mediation of the Nerves ( especially those of the sixth Conjugation , called the Recurrent Nerves ) into the brain , and there elaborated , and afterward transmitted by the Nerves , to all parts of the body : This worthy Person , I say , aiming to promote the certainty of these recent Opinions , hath collected , illustrated and disposed them into one Systeme ; Hoping thereby to declare their mutual Consistence , as well each with other , as with the demonstrative doctrine of the Circulation of the blood ; And at the same time put an end to all disputes , concerning the Milky veins , the use of the Spleen , of the Capsulae Atrabilariae , or Renes succenturiati , Deputy Kidnies ( as Casserius Placentinus called them ) and sundry other Difficulties in Anatomy . But , whether or no he hath attained to the full pitch of his hopes , in that design ; you will be best able to judge , when you have read and examined the weight of his experiments and discourses , delivered in his excellent Book , de Anatomia Hepatis : In the mean time , give me leave to advertise you , that his modesty is so great , as that he expresly professes his own want of full satisfaction concerning the truth of sundry particulars therein contained ; And therefore presents them to the World , as positions , not of apodictical evidence , but great probability , and worthy to be embraced , only till time shall have brought more credible ones to light . Furthermore , among these Merchants for light , we have some so excellently well skilled in all sorts of Medical Simples , that they know , not only the names , but the faces also and virtues of most of the Plants in Europe ; And can , besides that , give you a better account of the American druggs , than Piso Margravius , and others , notwithstanding the large volumes they have compiled concerning that subject . They likewise so well understand all Fossilia , and the several kinds of Minerals , pretious Stones , Salts , concreted juices , and other subterranean productions ; That even Lapidaries and Miners come to learn of them . We have others , who enquire into the mysteries of Refiners , Belfounders , and all others that deal in Metals . Others , who search out the frauds and sophistications of Wine-Coopers and Vintners , in the brewing , feeding , stumming , and adulterating of Wines . Others , who can inform you exactly of the severall hurtfull Arts of Brewers , Bakers , Butchers , Poulterers , and Cooks : All which are of very great detriment to the health of men , though the danger be commonly undiscerned ; And , were the civil Magistrate but half so careful to reform , as these Doctors have been in detecting those publick abuses , the Citty of London would soon find , by happy experience , that Physicians are both as willing and able to preserve health , as to restore it . In a word , there is nothing escapes their examination , which may any way concern the safety of mans life ; or the knowlege whereof can conduce to make themselves every way accomplisht in their Profession . And as for Chymistry ( which I had almost forgotten ) in the whole world there are none who know better how to distinguish betwixt the impostures and truths of it , than these Men doe : or how to make use of all the secrets thereof , towards the preparation of noble and generous Medicaments . Witnesse that plenty of choise Chymicall remedies , daily confected in the Elaboratory belonging to the Colledge , by the directions and prescripts of the Fellowes ; and the care they constantly take , to diffuse those safe and excellent preparations among all their Apothecaries , that so the lives of their Patients be not endangered by the false and poysonous wares of Pseudo-chymists . A course , certainly , that occasions great readinesse and security in their Practice ; and satisfies the World both of their singular Judgement , and constant Integrity in discharge of their trust . And thus , most honourd Sir , I have hastily , and slightly run over a few of those particulars , wherein Natural Philosophy , and the Art of Medicine have , of late , received such notable advancement , by the Inventions and Disquisitions of this Venerable Society ; which for the Knowledge of Nature , well deserves to be esteemed the Great Luminary of the World , from whence there constantly stream rayes of light , for the dispelling the thick and long congested clouds of ignorance . But , before I passe to the remainder of your demand , permit me to observe to you ; that though the Fellows of this Colledge apply themselves severally to this or that particular Province , each one according to the inclination & delight of his own private Genius ; Yet , when they meet together in Consultations , they are so candid and liberal in the communication of their single observations and discoveries , that no one of them can long be ignorant of the notions of all the rest : And the noble Emulation that hath equally enflamed their ingenious breasts , makes them unanimous in cooperating toward the Common design , the erecting an intire and durable Fabrick of solid Science ; such as posterity may not only admire , but set up their rest in . And now Sir , if you please to goe along with me to Oxford , you shall there also find as great Benefactors to Learning , as those were , who founded and endowed their Colledges ; and some , who for the excellency of their Inventions , will have their Memories fresh and verdant , when Time hath made those stately buildings confesse their brittleness , and reduced them into Quarries again . I could bring you to One there , who hath excogitated a Method , whereby the Astronomy of the primary Planets may be Geometrically explain'd : & that as wel according to the Elliptical , as to the Circularway . A thing of stupendious difficulty , requiring universal knowledge in the Mathematiques ; & of inestimable benefit toward the Certification of Coelestiall Science : and which , being judiciously perpended , seemes to be of equall weight with the merits of even the Great Hipparchus , who ( you know ) made the first Catalogue of the Fixt Stars , observed their severall Magnitudes , and marked out their particular Stations , both according to longitude and latitude ; without which there could be no certaine observation of the motions of the Erratick ones . So that if Hipparchus may be deservedly named Atlas the Second , for relieving the wearied shoulders of that Great Grandfather of Astronomy ; and if the glorious Tycho Brahe may be called Hercules the Second , for relieving Hipparchus , long languishing and ready to sink under so prodigious a burden , as the whole mysterie of the Heavens : I see no reason , why the Author of this admirable Invention , which seemes to assure the truth of all the rest , may not be called Tycho the Second . For my part really , were I worthy to have this Gentlemans Picture in my study , I should desire to have it drawne in this manner . I would have Hipparchus , Ptolemy , and Tycho , standing in a triangle , and supporting the whole Coelestial Machine on their heads ; on one side , Copernicus turning all the Orbs about with his right hand ; and this Heros on the other side , with a Table in his left hand containing the Figures in Euclids Elements , and with the Fore-finger of his right , pointing to the Planetary Spheres , as demonstrating the theory of their Motions , by the maxims of Geometry . And sure I am , He deserves to have his name assigned to some honorable place , among the worthy Advancers of Astronomy , in the Selenographicall map of Ricciolus . I could bring you to Another , who hath likewise discovered a Method , whereby the Parabola , Circle , Ellipsis , and Hyperbola really are ( and most , if not all other regular Curve-lined Figures , may be ) squared : A Problem that hath long perplex't the thoughts of the greatest Geometricians , and of late very neere turned the brains of even the great Leviathan himself , who arrogating the solution of it to himself , thought thereby not a little to justifie his pretences to the Monarchy of Knowledge , and Reformation of not only the Arts and Sciences , but also of the Universities that teach them . Here are some , who perceiving the great advantage arising to Students from the use of Symbols ( whereby the understanding is exempted from the encombrance of words , and brought , as it were , with one glance to behold the long continued series of complex and intricate ratiocination , which would otherwise oppresse the memory , and confound the strongest imagination to sustain it ) invented by Vieta , and brought to perfection by Mr. Oughtred and Des Cartes , for the more compendious tradition of the Mathematicks ; and considering that the same way was capable of being accommodated to the Facilitation of discourses in Philosophy , Physick , and other parts of Learning ; have made a very considerable progress toward the invention of Symbols , or Signes , for every thing and notion : insomuch that one of these Wits hath found the variety of many millions of Signes , in a square of a quarter of an inch , as himself professeth , in a most ingenious discourse of his , entituled Vindiciae Academiarum . Which perhaps you have read ; and if you have , I need not tell you how little he wants of finishing that so long talked-of and desired design of an Universal Character and Language . And as for the Optiques , shew me the men in the whole World , who have more illustrated the nature , affections , and motions of that most subtle and glorious Creature , Light ; Or given clearer demonstrations of their Knowledge of all sorts of Radiations , and the manner and reasons of Vision , than some Mathematical Wits , now flourishing in this University , have done . It is their usual recreation , to practise all Delusions of the sight , in the Figures , Magnitudes , Motions , Colours , Distances , and Multiplications of Objects : And , were you there , you might be entertained with such admirable Curiosities , both Dioptrical and Catoptrical , as former ages would have been startled at , and believed to have been Magical . They will represent to you , the Images of Things and Persons intire , and to the life , from Tables whereon the naked eye cannot discern so much as one part of them , unlesse in fractures and seemingly confused divisions ; and this by collected reflections from mirrours Conical , Cylindrical , Concave , Convex , Multangular , &c. They will imitate Nature to the height of perfect resemblance , in counterfeiting Rainbows , Halo's , and Circles of various Colours about Lights , by artificial Refractions of their beams . They have all the severall waies of Multiplying and Corroborating Light , and transmitting it in concourse to very great distance ; And this , as well by conveying the dispersed rayes through Diaphanous bodies , of convenient figures , and reuniting them in a cone or point , after their various refractions , for the encrease of their force ; Or by repercussion from Concave ( Elliptical , Parabolical , Circular ) superficies of polite Indiaphanous ones . Insomuch , that if Niceron , Kircher , and other great Masters in the Art of Light and Shadowes , would see the errors of their Optical Theory amended ; and all the secrets of Catoptrical Magick , familiarly reduced into practice : hither and only hither they must come . And , were Friar Bacon alive again , he would with amazement confesse , that he was canonized a Conjurer , for effecting far lesse , than these men frequently exhibit to their friends , in sport . They have , moreover , Optick Tubes , or Telescopes , in such perfection , that they magnifie more , and take in more of the rayes proceeding from illuminate Objects , than any other of the same length , that ever were made before : And have brought them also to as great a length , as can well be managed . These they use for observations of Eclipses of Sun and Moon , of the several Phases or Apparences of the Moon , of Saturn , and other Planets , both primary and secundary , of the Galaxy , the magnitudes and figures of the fixt stars , and other Coelestial Speculations . They have likewise Microscopes , that magnify the dimensions of minute and otherwise undiscernable bodies , even to an incredible rate , and bring the sight to a familiar acquaintance with the shapes of not only whole small Flies and other Insects , but also of the smallest part of them . Insomuch as there is hope , if this Invention go on toward perfection as fast as it hath begun , within this last four or five years ; that the eye ere long may be enabled to distinguish even the Seminal Figures of things , which seem to regulate them in their productions and growth ; and to behold the originary Schematisms of Nature , drawn on the smallest Moleculae , or first collections of Atoms concurring to determinate the Figures of Concretions . And thus , Noblest Isodicastes , have I essayd to yeeld you some satisfaction , concerning the state of Learning , now in England ; And the chief Particulars , wherein it hath received Advancement , by the prosperous endeavours of our Country-men , since your retirement here in France . I need not intimate to you , how imperfect and rambling an account I have given you of these Novell Inventions ; and am sufficiently conscious , that I rather ought to excuse my self , by the frailty of my Memory , and want of judgment , how to represent such excellent and usefull Discoveries , in descriptions correspondent to their Natures : And ask your pardon for thus abusing your patience , and lessning the merits of those worthy Authors , who have thus enriched the Common-wealth of Philosophy . Isodicastes . Good Athanasius , how well you have deserved both of those Authors and my self , in this your learned Harangue ; I must forbear to speak , till you are absent . In the mean time , give me leave , a little to wonder , how it comes about , that Apollo , who seldom plants his Laurel in a Land yet wet and reaking with blood , and delights to reside only where Peace and Plenty have long had their habitations ; should thus take up his mansion in a Nation so lately opprest by the Tyranny of Mars , and scarce yet free from the distractions of a horrid Civil War. Pallas and Bellona I know to be one and the same Goddesse : Yet I do not remember , I ever saw her pictured ( like Caesar ) with a Spear in one hand , and a Book in the other . When I veiw the train of sad and heavy Calamities , that commonly attend the Sword ; I should rather have expected the incroachment of Ignorance and Barbarism upon our Iland , than the encrease of Letters and growth of Knowledge there . Athanasius . You have reason for your wonder , Sir , I must confesse ; Yet when you have considered , that every Age hath its peculiar Genius , which inclines mens Minds to some one study or other , and gives it a dominion over their affections proportionate to its secret influence ; and that the vicissitudes of things ordained by Providence , require a general predisposition in mens hearts , to co-operate with Fate , toward the Changes appointed to succeed in the fulnesse of their time : You will think it lesse strange , that Britain , which was but yesterday the Theatre of War and desolation , should to day be the School of Arts , and Court of all the Muses . Omnia secula suum habent Genium , qui mortalium animos in certa studia solet inflectere . Quaedam aetates praecipuè armis exercitae ; mox omnia in quietem composita ; tum Regnorum , tum Rerum publicarum in populis amor ; nunc veluti in barbariem homines nasci , deinde facilioribus animis mansuescere ; & post secula aliquot ad stipatum prima caligine ingenium redire : was the observation of a Modern Writer , and hath been frequently verified . Besides , our late Warrs and Schisms , having almost wholly discouraged men from the study of Theologie ; and brought the Civil Law into contempt : The major part of young Schollers in our Universities addict themselves to Physick ; and how much that conduceth to real and solid Knowledge , and what singular advantages it hath above other studies , in making men true Philosophers ; I need not intimate to you , who have so long tasted of that benefit . Lucretius . I guesse the Author of that observation you alleage ; and that put 's me in mind of another remark of his , perhaps not altogether unseasonable . In his Character of the English Genius , he hath this saying : In Philosophia autem & Mathêsi , terrarumque & astrorum scientiis , nulla iam prodigiosa est Sententia , quae non ex hac regione Authores invenerit , vel turbam amatorum , vividam quidem , sed modum subtilitati per innumeras disputationes effusae non invenientem . Now , if this be true , why may we not refer these Innovations in Philosophy , Physick , and the Mathematicks , you have here recounted , rather to the English Humour of affecting new Opinions , than to any reall defects or errors in the Doctrine of the Ancients ? Athanasius . How now , Lucretius ; you an Epicurean , and yet against liberty of judgement among Philosophers ? It seems you have forgotten your Masters Rule ; Quoties aliqua sunt in natura , quae pessunt multis peragi modis ( uti eclipses syderum , uti eorundem ortus , occasus , sublimiaque caetera ) tunc unum aliquem modum it a probare , ut improbentur caeteri , ridiculum profecto est . Pray , do but proceed to the words immediately subsequent to that passage in Barclay , concerning the pronesse of the English Genius to Novelties ; and you will soon find , that he reflected chiefly on the Copernican Systeme , which in his daies began to grow into high repute , and obtained many Sectators among the learned of our Nation . So that confirming that Reproach , he endeavoured to fix upon our ingenious Spirits , by no better an instance , than that of our admission and promotion of the Pythagorean Hypothesis , of the Motion of the Earth , revived and adorned by Copernicus ( which all Astronomers now allow to be the most intelligible and most convenient , that ever was invented ) it easily appears , with how much more justice himself may be accused of grosse ignorance in matters Astronomical , which yet he would pretend to judge of ; than we can be of Levity and affected Innovation , for embracing and cultivating an opinion , of whose singular probability and excellency we are fully convinced . And as we have not submitted to that change in Astronomy , but upon grounds of as much certainty and clearnesse , as the sublime and remote nature of the subject seems capable of : So neither have we introduced any Alterations in Natural Philosophy , Physick , and other parts of Human Learning , but what carry their utility with them , and are justifiable by right reason , by autoptical or sensible demonstration , and by multiplied experience . So that every intelligent man may easily perceive , that it hath been the Reformation , that drew on the Change ; not the desire of Change , which pretendeth the Reformation . Did you , Lucretius , but know the Gravity , Solidity , and Circumspection of these worthy Reformers of the state of Learning now in England ; you would not suspect them of incogitancy , or too much indulgence toward the Minerva's of their own brain : but confesse that they have precisely followed that counsel of the Scripture , which injoynes us , to make a stand upon the Ancient way , and then look about us , and discover , what is the straight and right way , and so to walk in it . Isodicastes . For my part , truly , I conceive it fitting , that all Schollars should have a reverend esteem of Antiquity , as a good guide of our younger Reason into the waies of Nature ; Yet I think it scarce safe for any man to follow it implicitly , and without examination , as if it were impossible for him to erre the whiles , or as if the light of his own understanding were given him to no other use , but to be set in the drak-lanthorn of Authority . The Ancients indeed , ( thanks be to their bounteous industry ) have left us large and noble Foundations ; but few compleat Buildings : and who so intends to have his understanding seated commodiously , and in a pleasant Mansion of Science , must advance superstructures of his own ; otherwise he wil lie open to the weather of Doubts , and Whirlewinds of various Difficulties , nor will he be ever able to entertain his friends with decency and satisfaction . It was gravely and wittily said of the Lord Bacon , that those who too much reverence Old times , often become a scorn to the New. But , Gentlemen , I perceive the evening hastens upon us , and I have already detained you longer , then suits with the civility of an accidentall encounter ; Pray , therefore , let me beg the favour of your company to a light Collation of a Sallade and a bottle of good Wine , at my House : Or , if your occasions have otherwise preingaged you , let me resign you to the pursuit of them , with thanks for the content your learned conversation hath given me , and hopes of enjoying the like again , as often as your vacancy from serious affairs will permit . Athanasius . Noblest Sir , I most humbly thank you for the honour of your invitation ; and would attend you home , with all joy and gratitude imaginable , would the urgency of a businesse I have appointed to dispatch , this evening , dispense with me . Lucretius . I can assure you Sir , Athanasius is preingaged , and upon a matter of some moment ; but for my self , I am at liberty to meet the happiness you are pleased to offer me . Isodicastes . I love not to hinder businesse ; nor to importune a friend to his disadvantage . And so adieu , worthy Athanasius . Come Lucretius , I will bring you the shortest way ; I have a key will let us forth at yonder Privy door , that opens into the fields , that lie within the prospect of my house . Athanasius . Honour'd Isodicastes , farewell . DIALOGUE THE SECOND LUCRETIUS . I See you are very precise in keeping your time prefix't , Athanasius ; And I hope , I have not made you stay , many minutes , for me . If I have , you must impute it to the disagreement of our Watches , not to any tardiness in my self ; For , I assure you , I was here before you , in my desires . Athanasius . I love alwaies to be punctuall in my appointments , and rather to prevent my Friends , than put them to expect me . But , have you acquainted this Noble person Isodicastes , with the occasion of our present meeting ? Isodicastes . Yes , Athanasius , he hath ; and I acknowledge my self singularly obliged to him for importuning you to a divertisement , than which none could be more agreeable to me , as well in respect of the Argument you have promised to discuss , as of your self , whose Writings and yesterdaie's Conference have created in me a desire of conversing with you , oftner than ( I fear me ) your studies and affairs will permit . And now we are convened , let us lose no time , but repose our selves upon this shady Seat , and omitting all Complements and Prologues ; addresse immediately to the Subject intended . For my part , I promise you all attention of Mind possible , and as much Equity in judgement , as my slender stock of reason can attain to . Athanasius . Among Us , who are so happy , as to be Sacramentally engaged to fight under the Standard of the Crucified God , I observe , in the generall , two different perswasions concerning the nature of Faith. Some there are , who seem to have so active and long-winged a power of belief , as that they can mount up to an easie and quick apprehension of all the Mysteries of the Christian Doctrine ; and are ready to complain , that they want Difficulties enough to exercise the strength of their Belief . Others there are , who though their Faith be lively and strong enough to embrace even the most sublime Article of the Creed ; and estimate the Verity of each Religious Principle only by its dependence on Authority Divine : are neverthelesse so sensible of the frailties of Human Nature , as that they think it necessary to have often recourse to that Pathetical Ejaculation of the man in the Gospel , Lord I believe , Lord help my unbelief . The First , wholly refuse the assistance of their Reason , even where it offers it self and the subject is capable of illustration by the discourses it might raise thereupon ; as judging any Fundamental of Religion much debased , and in a manner prophaned , if once it be brought to the Test of the Light of Nature , though meerly for Confirmation and more familiar admittance . The Others , humbly resign up their Assent to all Positions contained in Sacred Writ ; and yet are glad , when they can bring up the Forces of their Reason to assist them in the conquest of their fleshly oppositions : And conceive they then make the best use of the talent of their Understanding , when they imploy it toward the ratification of Divine Traditions . Now , albeit I admire , and could most willingly emulate the perfection of the Former sort ; Yet , I confesse , I am not ashamed to rank my self among the Latter . For , although ( thanks be to the Mercy of God ) I do not find my self subject to diffidence in any point of the Christian belief , taught me by that Oracle of Sacred wisdom , the Word of God : Yet me thinks I perceive my faith somwhat Corroborated and Encouraged , when to the evidence therof I can superadd also the concurrent testimony of my Reason . Nor do I fear the frowns of Theology , if I adventure to affirm , that that Soul must have a clearer preception of the Excellency of Objects Supernatural , who can attain to speculate them both by the light of Grace and that of Nature together . I am very far short of their Audacity , who are so conceipted of the subtility of their Wit , as to permit it to fly at all that a Christian is bound to believe ; insomuch as even the Arcana Deitatis , the Mysteries of the Trinity , of the Hypostatick Union , and other the like Divine Abstrusities ( which poor Mortality is unqualified to contemplate ; and , indeed , which Cherubins themselves cannot look into , without raptures of holy wonder ) have hardly escaped their prophanation . No , far be it from me , to entertain a thought of so wild and dangerous a presumption . All I durst ever aspire unto , is only with pious humility to apply my Reason to such of the Articles in my Creed , as seem to be placed within the Sphere of its comprehension : Of which sort I conceive the First and Last Article to be , viz. the Being of God , as Father Almighty , and Maker of Heaven and Earth ; and the Immortality of Mans Soul , or Life everlasting . Nor , indeed , need I seek further for my Confirmation in the belief of all the rest , when once I have advanced my Understanding to that due height , as clearly to behold the Verity of these two Positions , that are the Pillars and supporters of all the others . Nay , I have somtimes thought the Single position of the Immortality of the Human Soul , to be the grand Base of Religion , and like the Key , or midle stone in an Arch , which bears the weight of all others in the building . For , if the Soul be mortal , & subject to utter dissolution with the body ; to what purpose doth all Piety and Religion serve ? What issue can we expect of all our Prayers , of all our Adorations , of all our Self-denying acts of obedience , of all our unjust Sufferings ? Why should we worship God at all ? Nay , more , why should we consider whether there be a God or no ? For , the assurance of his Being could not much conduce to encrease our happinesse in this transitory life ; since that would then consist only in the full fruition of Sensual pleasures : And as for future expectations after death , there could be none at all ; For , absolute Dissolution imports absolute Insensibility ; and what is not , cannot be capable of Reward or Punishment , of Felicity or Misery . What hath not an Existence , can ne're know The want of Bliss ; Nothing can feel no Wo. And from this Consideration was it , that I began first to apply my self to search for other Reasons , for the eviction of the Souls Eternal subsistence after death , besides those delivered in Holy Scripture ; that conjoyning the evidence and certainty of those desumed from the Light of Nature , to that of my former belief arising from the Light of Grace : I might be the better able to withstand the Convulsions of my own frailties , and convince others , who are so refractory , as to submit their assent to no inducement of perswasion , but what is drawn meerly from Natural Reasons . Now , for my encouragement and Iustification in this design , I need not go far ; it being well known , that many Doctors of the Church , and those of the best note both for Learning and Piety , have exercised their wits and pens in the same subject : and have unanimously concluded , that though in the Christian Creed there be sundry Articles , concerning the Condition of Mans Soul , after its separation from the body , which by infinite excesses transcend the capacity of his reason ; Yet that general one of the perpetual existence of it after death , may be satisfactorily evinced by the same reason . To mention all the excellent Discourses written by these Church-men and others , upon this Argument ; would be both tedious and unnecessary : Especially to you , who I presume have perused the greatest part , if not all of them . It may suffice , that I have them for my Precedents , both for the warrantablenesse , and probability , of this my undertaking . However , if you require farther justification of me ; I refer you to the undeniable Authority of the Lateran Council , held under Pope Leo the tenth . Which having decreed the Anathematization of all Atheists , who durst question the Being of God , or the Immortality of the Human Soul ; in the close of the Canon not only exhorteth , but expressly commandeth all Christian Philosophers to endeavour the demonstration of those sacred Truths , by solid and Physical Arguments . And , certainly , so pious and prudent an Assembly would never have prescribed that task , in case they had not conceived it both commendable and possible to be effected . Lucretius As for the Goodnesse and Piety of your Undertaking , truly I think few understanding men will question it ; and , on the other side , I fear me , you will meet with as few , that will acknowledge the Possibility of your accomplishing it . For , if I am not much mistaken , the greatest number of those eminent Doctors of the Church , and chiefest of the School-men , whom you intimated to have been your examples , in this particular , do , after all their labours and subtle disputes , ingenuously confesse , that the best of their Arguments are not rigorously Convincing , or such as constrain assent as inevitably as Mathematical Demonstrations . And , if so , though I expect to receive as high satisfaction from you , as from any , who ever gave me the same hopes : Yet I humbly begg your excuse , if I suspend my belief of your ability to prove the Immortality of mans Soul , by Reasons of evidence & force requisite to the Conviction of a meer Natural man ( such as I , for this time at least , suppose my self to be , and such as indeed all men would , when they come to examine the strength of Discourses of this nature ) untill you shall have given me more pregnant testimonies thereof , than any Author ; whose writings I have read , hath hitherto done , touching this subject . In a word , I believe the Soul to be Immortal , as firmly , as you , or any person living can ; Yet I should account it no small felicity , to see a perfect Demonstration of it ; such as might for ever silense all Doubts and Contradictions , and make a Convert of my old Master Epicurus , in case he were now among the living : And any thing lesse than that , would hold no proportion to my expectation . Athanasius . I will not deny , Lucretius , but some of those School-men , who have alleaged congruous and sinewy Reasons , in favour of the Souls Immortality , did afterward themselves confesse , they were not compleatly Apodicticall : But , you may be pleased to remember also , that some others of them stiffly maintained the contrary ; and all of them unanimously concur in this , that howbeit those Reasons do not ascertain equally with Geometrical Demonstrations ; yet they are such as import either a Physicall or Moral evidence , sufficient to perswade a mind well affected toward truth , and free from the obstruction of prejudice . Nor should I fear to obtain the Cause , however the Arguments I shall bring , to assert the Immortality of the Soul , arise not to the height of absolute Demonstrations : Provided they be found of greater certainty , clearnesse , and consequence , than those that have ever yet been urged by those of the contrary perswasion ; and such as being superadded to the Authority of Holy Writ , become ineluctable . And more than this , ( Lucretius ) considering the singular obscurity and abstruse condition of the subject , you have no reason to expect at my hands . Pray , do but reflect a little on the modesty of that great man , Aristotle , declared in sundry places of his Writings , but more especially in the beginning of his Ethicks , where he saith , Hominis probe instituti est , tantam in unoquoque genere subtilitatem desiderare , quantam rei ipsius natura recipit . A man of Erudition , and a sound Judgement ; ought to require only so much subtility and exactnesse in any kind of Argument , as the nature of the thing treated of , will admit , and no more . And , having observed the same unreasonable humour of curiosity in others of those times , that now possesseth you , and too many of the sublime Wits of the present age , who look for nothing below Demonstrations , though in the Metaphysicks , and other Sciences that are really incapable of them ; he addeth this positive rule , Mathematica certitudo non est in omnibus quaerenda ; Mathematical Certitude is not to be required in all things . To convince you the more clearly of the Unreasonablenesse of what you would exact from me in this case ; let me a while divert you to the consideration of the nature of a Demonstration . The Method of Demonstration , you know , is twofold ; the one by Analysis , the other by Synthesis . The Analytical teacheth the true way , by which the truth of a thing may be found out Methodically , and as à priori ; so that if the Reader or Hearer shall strictly follow the same , and attentively heed all the Antecedents and Consequents therein propounded , he shall come at length to understand the thing demonstrated as perfectly , and make it as much his own , as if himself had first found it out . But yet it contains nothing , whereby either the heedless , or dissenting reader may be compelled to assent ; For if any one of the least Propositions therein delivered , be not exactly and fully noted , the necessity of its Conclusions doth not sufficiently appear . The Synthetical , by a way opposite to the former , and as it were sought à posteriori ( though the Probation it self be oftentimes more à priori , than in the former ) doth clearly demonstrate , what is concluded , and useth a long series of Definitions , Postula es , Axioms , Theorems , and Problems , that if any thing be denied of the Consequents , it speedily sheweth the same to be comprehended in the Antecedents , and so extorts belief from the Reader , though formerly repugnant and pertinacious . Neverthelesse , this doth not satisfie , nor fil the mind of him who comes to learn , so amply as the other : Because it teacheth not the way or manner , how the thing proved was first found out . And this Latter is that , which the Ancient Geometricians generally made use of in their Writings ; not that they were ignorant of the other : But ( as I conceive ) because they valued it so highly , as that they desired to reserve it to themselves , as a great Secret , and too noble to be prophaned by vulgar communication . Now , this is that strict and vigorous Method , upon which I suppose you reflect , when you say ; you would gladly meet with a perfect Demonstration of the Immortality of Mans Soul : And I must therefore advertise you of the Incompetency thereof to Metaphysical subjects . And the reason doth consist in this Difference ; that the First Notions , which are presupposed , in order to the demonstration of things Geometrical , agreeing with the use of the Senses , are most easily and promptly admitted by all men ; & so there is no difficulty , but only in deducing right Consequences from them , which may be done only by remembring the Antecedents : And the minute distinction of propositions is therefore made , that each of them may , upon occasion , be quickly recited , and so recalled to the memory of even the most heedlesse Reader : But on the contrary , in things Metaphysical , all the difficulty lies in clearly and distinctly perceiving the First Notions ; For , though of their own nature they be not lesse known , or , even more known , than those considered by Geometricians : Yet , because many prejudgements of the Senses , to which from our infancy we have been accustomed , seem repugnant to them ; therefore cannot they be perfectly known , but by such as are very attentive to them , and withall abstract their Minds from the Images of Corporeal things , as much as is possible ; and being proposed alone by themselves , they might easily be denied , by such as delight in contradiction . But , as for the Analytical method ; I would not have you despair of seeing it in some measure accommodated to the subject , of which we now discourse . Provided you shall first tune your Mind to a fit key , to bear a part in the harmony of truth , when it resounds from the strings of all the Antecedents and Consequents propounded . Which you must do , both by abstracting your thoughts many times from the grosse representations of Corporeal things , that hold no commerce of proportion or similitude with the Incorporeal Nature of the thing enquired into : and by wholly devesting your self of all prejudice , and inclination to impugn truth , when it presents it self clad in sufficient evidence . For , whosoever comes to the examination of an intricate truth , with the cloud of inveterate aversion , and mask of affected contradiction , before his eyes ; doth thereby make himself the lesse fit to perceive it : because he diverts his mind , from the due consideration of those reasons that might convince him , to the hunting after such as may dissuade him . Lucretius . You do well , Athanasius , thus to prepare my belief before-hand , by telling me , how necessary it is , that I should abstract my Mind , as well from the Images of Material Objects , as from prejudice ; when it remains on your part , first to shew me the way of that Abstraction , and then to devest me of prejudice . For , for my own part , I confesse ingenuously , I can speculate nothing , without the help of my Imagination ; so that whatever I can think upon , comes to my mind in the dresse of Magnitude , Figure , Colour , and other the like conditions of Matter . Truth is , I have often heard , among your soaring and long-winged Wits , of Abstracted and Unbodied Notions ; and have somtimes perplexed my mind , and almost crackt the membranes of my brain , in striving how to comprehend them : And yet I alwaies found my Phansy so inseparably conjoined to my Intellect , as if they were both one and the same Faculty . Nor am I yet able to distinguish betwixt my Imagination and Intellection : And when once you shall have satisfied me of a reall Difference betwixt them ; I shall soon confesse , you have gone very near the Demonstration of the Souls Immortality . Because , if the operations of the Intellect be clearly distinct from those of the Phansy , which is a Corporeal Faculty , and therefore limited to the perception and representation of only Corporeal Natures : It will almost follow , that the Intellect , which is capable of knowing Incorporeals , is a substance clearly distinct from the body , and so Immaterial ; since different effects must have different Causes . And , as for your other Postulate , viz. the exemption of my mind from contrary prejudice ; This also is what I should expect from the efficacy of your intended Arguments . For , ( as I told you before ) I believe the Immortality of the Soul ; but cannot perswade my self of the possibility of its Demonstration , by any other but Divine reasons : And it must be your work , to convince me of the error of that perswasion . Neverthelesse , I will assure you of my best Attention , and that I come not with a resolution not to be satisfied . Athanasius . Dear Sir , have patience a while , and you shall soon perceive both the Necessity and Equity of what I require : And in the mean time , do not take occasion to anticipate my Notions , but leave me to deliver them in their due places and order . Lucretius . I shall punctually observe your commands ; and therefore , if you think fit , immediately addresse your self to your Demonstration . Athanasius . First , it will be convenient , in order to the prevention of all Equivocation and Logomachy , that may arise from the various use of the word , Soul ; that we insist a little on the examination of that vulgar Opinion , which admitteth a real distinction betwixt Animus and Anima , the Mind and the Soul : In regard it seems to be the very same , according to which many Doctors of the Church have conceived the Soul to have Two Parts , a Superior and Inferior ; the one being the Mind , Intellect , or Reason ; the other comprehending the Sense & Appetite Natural and Brutish . There are ( you know ) many eminent men , as well Theologues , as Philosophers , who , as they hold Man to be composed of two parts , a Soul and a Body ; so do they conceive , that his soul is likewise composed of a twofold substance , the one Incorporeal or Immaterial , immediately created by God , and infused into the body , at the instant of its Empsychosis or first Animation , in the Mothers Womb : The other Corporeall or Material , originally contained in the Parents Seed , and derived ex traduce , from the Seminalities of Male and Female commixed in coition ; which is as it were the Medium or Disposition , by the intermediate nature whereof the Diviner part is conjoined and united to the Elementary , or Body . And this Opinion they ground chieflly upon that speech of the Apostle , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : I perceive a Law in my members warring against the Law of my Mind , &c. For ( say they ) , since it is impossible , that one Simple Essence or thing should war against , or have contrariety to it self ; from this Repugnancy betwixt the Sense , and the Mind or Reason , it seems necessarily consequent , that the Sensitive and Rational Soul are things essentially different each from other . Whereunto they superadd also , that unlesse this Distinction be admitted , we can never well understand , how Man , as a living Creature , can be said to be , in one part , little lower than the Angels : and in another , to be like the Horse or Mule , that have no understanding . How , in respect of one part , he is made after the Image of God : and in respect of another , he is compared to the Beasts that perish . How , in one respect , he acknowledgeth God to be his Author and Principle : and in another , he owns his production upon his Parents . How , in one relation , he is said to be Immortall : and in another , subject to death equally with the smallest worme . Notwithstanding , it is not either the Authority , or Arguments of these Men , that seem prevalent enough to bring me to be of their persuasion . For as to their Authority ; I could thereunto oppose that of some Fathers , yea and Councils , who not onely reprehend , but condemne all such , as make a duality of Souls in man : were not the thing already well known to you . However , suffer me to put you in mind , that the pious and learned Conimbricenses ( who certainly , have most profoundly and judiciously , of all others , handled this Question ) though they proceed not so far , as to censure this conceipt to be Hereticall ( as some others before them had don ) yet they expressy declare their Dissent from it . And as for their Reasons alledged ; I thinke them likewise insufficient . For all that Psychomachy , or intestine Conflicts which these men imagine to be betwixt the inferior part of the soul which is called the sensitive , and the superior called the Rational , or betwixt the Natural Appetites and the Will ; doe arise onely from the repugnancy or contrariety which is between those motions of the spirits , which are on one side caused by the senses affected by externall objects ; and those motions of the spirits which on the other side are caused by the will , after the soul hath deliberated upon their conveniency and utility . And , in truth , each individuall man hath one and onely one soul ; in which is no variety of parts : that which is the Sensitive is also the Rationall , and all her Appetites are absolute Volitions . The cause of these mens error seems to be this , that they could not well distinguish the Functions proper to the soul , from the Functions proper to the body ; to which alone we ought in right to ascribe whatever we observe in our selves to be repugnant to our Reason . So that in Man , there is no other Contract or Contrariety of Affections , but what consisteth in the contrary motions caused by the spirits and purer part of the blood , in that part of the body , in which as in its principall and more immediate organ , the soul is enthroned and exerciseth her faculties ; whether that be the Plexus Choroides in the brain , as most Physicians conceive ; or the Heart , as the Scripture seems to intimate ; or the Glandula pinealis , in the centre of the brain , as Des Cartes affirmeth ; or any other part whatsoever : one of these motions arising from the determination of the spirits by the will one way ; and the other , from the determination of them by the corporeal Appetite , another way . And hence it comes often to pass , that these impulses being contrary each to other ; the stronger doth impede and countermand the effect of the weaker . Nor is it difficult to distinguish these two kinds of impulses or motions , made by the mediation of the spirits upon the principal sensory , or chief seat of the soul. Forasmuch as some of them represent to the soul , the Images of objects either at that time moving the senses , or the impressions formerly made and remaining in the brain ; but offer no force or violence to it , so far as to engage the will toward their prosecution : and others prove so effectual , as to dispose the will accordingly ; as may be observed in all those , which produce passions , or such motions in the body , as usually accompany passions . As for the former , though they often impede the actions of the soul , and are againe as often impeded and suppressed by them ; yet , because they are not directly opposite each to other , we can observe no conflict or wrestling betwixt them ; as we may , betwixt the latter sort of Motions , and acts of the will or Volitions that oppose them , as ( for example ) betwixt that impulse , by which the principall organ of the soul is disposed to affect her with the cupidity or desire of any one particular object ; and that , by which the will counterdisposeth her to an aversation from , or avoydance of , the same . And this Conflict chiefly demonstrate thits selfe hereby , that the will being not able to excite passions directly , and immediately , is constrained to cast about and use a kind of art , in order thereunto ; and to apply it selfe to the consideration of several things successively , or one after another ; whereupon it comes to passe , that if any one of those things occurring , chance to be prevalent enough to change the course or current of the spirits , at that instant ; yet another that followes next after it , be not powerfull enough to second the former in that change , the spirits then immediately againe resume their first course or motion ( the precedent disposition in the nerves , heart , and blood , being not yet altered ) and thereupon the soul perceives her selfe to be impelled to pursue and avoid the same object , almost in one and the same moment . And this alone was that , which gave occasion to men , to imagine Two Distinct and mutually repugnant Powers or Faculties in the soul. Nevertheless , we may conceive another sort of Conflict consisting in this ; that many times the same cause , which exciteth a passion in the soul , doth , even in the same moment , excite also in the body , certaine motions , to which the soul doth not at all conduce , and which she suppresseth or at least indeavours to suppress , so soon as she observes them to be begun . For instance , whatsoever causeth Feare , doth at the same instant cause also the spirits to flow into those muscles , which serve to move the thighs and legges to flight or avoidance of the terrible object ; but if the Will suddainly rise up , and determine to exercise the vertue of Fortitude , and oppose the danger threatned , the soul then giveth check to that motion of the spirits , and converts them to the heart and armes the better to make resistance . And here I ask leave to make a short Digression , while ( with the excellent Des Cartes ) I observe to you ; that it is from the Event of these inward Conflicts , by which a man may come to understand the strength or weakness of his own soul. For such persons , who have their wills sufficiently strong to subdue passions , and countermand those suddain motions in the body which accompany the passions ; are without doubt , endowed with Noble and Generous Souls : And those who have their wills subject to the impetuosity of passions , and cannot check the motions of the spirits resulting from them , must be men of abject , effeminate and pusillanimous ones . Not that every man can make this Experiment of himselfe , as to Weaknesse or Fortitude ; because many and indeed most men come to these Duells , armed , not with the true and proper weapons of the mind , but with false ones borrowed from some contrary Affection : so that the conflict may seem to be rather betwixt two opposite Passions , than betwixt the Will and either of them ; and the Will may be said to follow the fortune of the conquering passion , rather than to be it selfe the conquerour . By the true and proper weapons of the Mind , I meane certaine right and firme judgments concerning the knowledge of Good and evill ; according to which it hath decreed to regulate it self in all the actions and occurrences of life . And , certainly , of all Souls , those are the most weak and feminine , which have not their wills thus determined to follow certaine settled Judgements , but suffer them to be drawn aside by present Affections ; which being many times contrary one to another , and equally prevalent , counter-incline the Will alternately , and so keep it on the rack of suspence . Thus , when Feare representeth Death , as the worst of evils , and which cannot be otherwise avoided , but by flight ; if on the other side , Ambition step in , and represent the infamy of flight , as an Evill worse then Death : these two contrary Affections variously agitate and distract the Will , and by putting it to a long conflict and irresolution , render the soul most servile and miserable . Now from this consideration it is manifest , that there is no such necessity , as hath been imagined , of allowing a distinction of the soul into Animum and Animam , or making the Reasonable soul and the Sensitive two distinct beings , in order to the explanation of that Psychomachy , or Contest betwixt Reason and Sense , or the Superior and Inferior Faculties , of which the Apostle complained , and indeed which every man feels within himselfe : all that repugnancy consisting in a Contrariety , not of the soul to it selfe ( which in a Simple Essence is impossible ) but onely of the Motions of the spirits ; caused by the Senses , on one side , and those caused by the Will , on the other , as hath been declared . And , as for the other Reasons that remaine ; what I have now said , may be easily extended to the solution of them also : for , that Man is composed of a Reasonable Soul , and a Body ; is sufficient to our understanding him to be , in one respect , little lower than the Angells , made after the Image of God , and Immortall ; and in another , like the Horse and Mule , that have no understanding , and subject to death equally with the beasts that perish . Isodicastes . By your favour , good Athanasius . You were saying even now , that there were some Fathers and Councils , who condemned all such as maintained a Duality of Souls in Man : But , if I am not mistaken , that condemnation doth cheifly concern the Maniches , who held two distinct Souls in every man ; the one derived from an evill Principle , and so contaminated with the tincture of Vices ; the other immaculate , pure , and having its origine immediately from God , yea being a certain Particle of the Divine Essence it self ; And , perhaps , it may be extended also to the Platonist and Averrhoist , who affirm the Ratitional Soul not to be the Forma informans , and so make two forms in every individual person ; both which opinions , are erroneous and hereticall . But , that it doth include also those , who distinguish the Soul into a Superior and Inferior part ; the one comprehending the Mind Intellect or Reason only ; the other the Sensitive Faculties and Appetites : I am yet to learn. Which I advertise you of , not that I am unsatisfied with the reason you have given of those Conflicts we daily have within us ; For , in truth , it seems conveniently to explain the mystery of that Repugnancy betwixt our Rational and Corporeal Appetites : but , to intimate to you , that I see no reason , why the Human Soul may not be admitted : to consist of two parts , the one Immaterial and Intellectual , called the Mind , or Understanding , and ( by way of excellency ) the Human Soul ; the other Material , and only Sensitive , by the mediation whereof that Divine part is united to the body during life . And , without admitting this Distinction , I do not understand the meaning of that Sentence of Plato , Mentem recipi in Anima ; Animam , in corpore : nor of that of Trismegistus ( or whoever was the Author of Poemander ) Mentem in Animam , Animam in Spiritu , Spiritum in corpore vehi : Both which not obscurely intimate a certain Third Nature in Man , intermediate between that Divine essence , his reasonable Soul , & that Material or Elementary one , his body ; which can be no other , but what we call the Sensitive part of the Soul. Athanasius . Whether that condemnatory Sentence mentioned , doth extend to such , as hold the Reason to be one part of the Soul , and the Sensitive power to be another , in this moderate sense you are pleased to state it ; I will not much contend , it being the proper businesse of Divines to determine that doubt : But , thus much I am certain of , that it expresly toucheth all , who assert a Duality of Souls Coexistent in man ; and that is enough , I presume , to justifie my quotation of it , against them . As for those remarkable texts of Plato , and the great Hermes , which you alleage ; I answer , that it is very probable , that those Philosophers , who held the Soul to be Composed of two different Natures , as these seem to have done ; had for their principal argument that intestine Repugnancy , we have explained , and that nothing can be contrary to it selfe . Now , their ground or Supposition that this Repugnancy is in the Soul it self , or betwixt the Reasonable part and the Sensitive , and not betwixt the Soul and Body only ( as I have clearly proved it to be ) being manifestly erroneous : Assuredly , their Inference cannot be longer considerable . Neverthelesse , if what I have already urged , be not sufficiently clear and valid ; rather than shew my self so vain an Opiniator , as to put my judgement into the ballance against so solid a one as yours , I am content , you should continue the possession of your present perswasion , till you shall please to afford me some other opportunity of demonstrating the Unity and Simplicity of the Soul : My present undertaking being only to evince the Immortality of it ; and this more out of compliance to Lucretius importunity , than any confidence of singular ability in my self , to mannage so noble and weighty an Argument . If therefore I have not already discouraged your patience ; permit me now to apply my self wholly to that Province . The Considerations which I have designed to alleage , at this time , in favour of the Souls Immortality , are either Physical , or Moral ; And the Physical , or such as arise from the Nature of the Soul it self , seem all to refer themselves to this one Capital Argument . The Reasonable Soul of Man is Immaterial ; and therefore Immortal . Here , notwithstanding the main Difficulty be concerning the Antecedent , yet convenience of Method requires me first to manifest the Force or Necessity of the Consequence . The Reason therefore , why what is Immaterial , must also be Immortal , is deduceable from hence ; that what wants Matter , wants likewise parts , into which it might be distracted and dissolved : and what is uncapable of being dissolved , must of perfect necessity alwayes continue to be what it is . For , whatever is of a nature free from the conditions of Matter or Body ; doth neither carry the principles of dissolution in it selfe , nor fear them from External Agents : and by pure consequence , cannot but perpetually last , or ( which is the very same ) be Immortall . And this Reason seems to me , both most evident and ineluctable . Lucretius . I perceive no such unavoidable Necessity . For , though an Immateriall thing cannot perish by the Exsolution of parts , which is the only way , by which all Corporeall natures are destroyed : yet it is not impossible , but the same may be destroyed some other way proper to Incorporealls , and unknown to us . Forasmuch as what ever is Principiate , or once produced , must have some cause of its production ; and then why may it not be againe destroyed by the selfe same Cause , or by an action of that Cause , contrary to that action by which it was at first produced ? Athanasius . There are but two wayes , comprehensible by the Understanding , how any thing , that hath existence in nature , can perish : the one is ( as I have already expressed ) by the Exsolution and Dissipation of its parts , of which it was composed ; the other by absolute Adnihilation of its Entity , as the Schoolmen phrase it . Now , though I confesse , that as the former way of destruction is peculiar to Corporeall natures ; so I know nothing to the contrary , but the Latter may be competent to Incorporeals , which are produced ex nihilo ; for , every dependent , or what hath not its Being from its selfe , but deriveth it from another , is liable at the pleasure of that , on which it doth depend , to be deposed from that essence or state of Being , in which it was , by the same , created : yet , that there is any such thing as Adnihilation though consistent with the Omnipotence of God , is hardly conceiveable , without derogation from his wisedome , which pronounced all to be good that he had made , and the formal reason of the Creatures goodnesse doth consist only in this , that it seem'd good to the Divine will so to make them ; and to argue à posse ad esse , that God doth or will adnihilate any thing , because it is in his power to adnihilate , is much below so good a Logician , as Lucretius is . Nor are we to suppose any Innovation in the generall state of things ; but that the course of the Universe or Nature , doth constantly and invariably proceed in the same manner or tenour of method , which was at first instituted by the wisedome of the Creator . There is , you know , a twofold Immortality , the one Absolute , the other only Derivative . That the First is competent onely to God , cannot be denyed ; since it is impossible that that essence , which is Non-principiate , or never had beginning , nor any Cause of its production , should be determined , or ever cease to be , or meet with any cause of its destruction . And that the latter may be competent to the whole Genus of Immaterial Essences , notwithstanding the power of God , which can reduce them to Nothing , as well as it hath educed them from nothing ; is likewise undeniable : for , supposing ( as we ought ) that God doth nothing contrary to the establish't Lawes and decreed order of Nature , and that this Generall state of things doth continue still the same , which his Wisedom at first instituted ; it doth evidently follow , that what He hath once made Incorporeal , shall persever to be the same to all eternity . I remember a passage in Scaliger ( Exercit. 307. sect . 20. ) that most fitly expresseth the summe of this consideration , and therefore shall recite it to you . Solus Deus est verè immortalis & incorruptibilis , quia solus exse suum esse habet , atque à nullo dependet ; Dei verò respectu omnia creata mortalia & corruptibilia sunt , quae â Creatoris nutu deponi possunt ab essentia illa , in qua constituta sunt . Non corumpuntur tamen quaedam , ut Angeli & Anima Rationalis , quia Creator non vult ea corrumpi , & nihil contrarii ipsis , à quo corrumpantur , condidit , nec eas ita materiae immersit , ut extra eam nec subsistere , nec operari possint . And this I conceive sufficient to manifest the necessity of Immortality from Incorporiety . Lucretius . But I am not satisfied of any necessity , why you should have recourse to Immateriality , for the proof of Immortality ; seeing that even among the Father ▪ there are some who maintain Immortality to be consistent with Corporality : and amongst the best Philosophers , some assert the Coelestial Bodies to be Incorruptible , and deduce that their incorruptibility from the nature of their Forme , which neverthelesse they account not incorporeal . Athanasius . Those Fathers held some Corporeal natures to be Immortal , not ex ratione essentiae , but ex Divina Gratia , only from the decree of the Divine beneplacet ; otherwise than I affirme of Incorporeals , and particularly the Soul of man. And as for that opinion of some Philosophers , it is enough that it doth not oppose our Consequence i. e. that granting some bodies to be Incorruptible , it followes not , that therefore Incorporeals are the lesse , but rather the more inccorruptible . Whatever becomes of that Opinion , I say , that because there is no Body , which is not in processe of time , exsoluble into such parts , of which it doth consist : in as much as whether their principles be Atomes , which by their naturall agility and contrary impulsions alwayes cause intestine commotions , and a constant civill warre in the very entrals . of Concretions , or whether they be Elementary Qualities , active and reciprocally repugnant , which cannot be idle , but unnecessantly act one upon another ; they carry the possibility of Dissolution in their own Composition : I say , considering this , it is clearly necessary , that all bodies , according to the Fundamental Laws of Nature , be subject to Dissolution , their parts being at length exturbed from their primary site , or Position and Union , and a total resolution succeding thereupon . Besides , you well know , that that Tenent of Aristotle , of the Incorruptibility of Coelestial Bodies , hath been exploded long since : And that what his Interpreters have so magnificently talked , of the Nature of the Caelestial Form , is a meer dream , a chimera of immoderate subtility , and worthy only to be laught at ; especially after those many observations of changes in them , made by the Modern Astronomers , evincing the contrary . Lucretius . But , do not you incur an Absurdity , in supposing that there is any substance Immaterial , or produced-Nature Incorporeal ; when as the Fathers many of them have judged , that what is not a Body , is Nothing ; and that my Tutor , Epicurus hath expressly taught , that in Nature , nothing is Incorporeal beside Space or Inanity ? Athanasius . I know no Father , but only Tertullian ( whom St. Augustine doth smartly reprehend for asserting it ) of that unsound opinion ; and to him we may oppose the Authority of all , at least of most the others , who solidly justified the contrary . And to Epicurus , I oppose Plato , Aristotle , and sundry others , who would not admit any such thing as Emptinesse in the Universe ; but expressly affirmed , that there were [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] Substances separate , incorporeal , and destitute of parts . What if there were a few , who could not elevate their minds so high , as to conceive any thing Incorporeal , besides Inanity ; doth it therefore follow , that those many , and great men , who did conceive the contrary were fools , and that I , who likewise affirm the existence of Incorporeal Natures , doe run my self upon an Absurdity ? I hope , Lucretius , you will be more favourable to your self , than to own the impertinence of any such Sequel . Lucretius . To deal freely with you , I find the Notion of Immaterial Substance , to be somwhat too sublime for the comprehension of so humble and short-sighted a reason as mine is . But , perhaps , you may assist it with the Telescope of yours , upon occasion of somwhat or other in the processe of your discourse : And , therefore , go on directly to the conviction of your Antecedent , viz. that the Rational Soul is Immortal ; for , upon that hang's all the weight of the businesse . Athanasius . The Antecedent , viz. that the Reasonable Soul is Immaterial , is evident from the Nature and Manner of its Operations . For , since it is a certain rule , that every Agent is known by its Effects , and that all Formes reveal themselves by their peculiar and distinct energies , and waies of Operation ; and as certain , that the Actions of man , as a Cogitating and Intellectuall Essence , are of so noble and divine a strain , as that it is impossible they should be performed by a meer Material Agent , or Corporeal substance , however disposed , qualified , or modified : What truth can be more perspicuous , more strong , than this , that the Soul of man , by which alone he is impowered to think and understand , is an Immaterial Substance ? Now , all the Actions of the Human Soul , are referrible to two General Heads or Fountains ; whereof the one is Perception , or the single Operation of the Intellect ; the other , Volition , or the single Operation of the Will : For , to be sensible , to Imagine , and purely to understand , are only diverse manners of Perceiving ; and to desire , to hate , to affirm , to deny , to embrace , to refuse , are only divers manners of Willing . To examine these Actions , therefore , more particularly ; let us in the first place , turn our eye , for a glance or two , upon the Will , which though but a branch of the Soul , and as it were a secundary Faculty , in respect of the Intellect , doth clearly shew the Immateriality of the Soul , whose Faculty it is . For , insomuch as the Will doth by Natural and Congenial tendency , prosecute Bonum Honestum , which is for the most part repugnant to Bonum Delectabile , or such Good , as is only Sensual and Corporeal : It is a good Consequence , that the Will is an Incorporeal Faculty ; it being impossible for a Corporeal Faculty to apprehend an Incorporeal Object , such as Good abstracted from all relations of the Sense . Again , forasmuch as the Will is absolutely Free , to elect , or refuse what Objects she pleaseth ; and such a Freedom cannot consist with an Appetite immersed in Matter and obliged thereunto inseparably ( because all Dispositions of Matter are determinate and necessary , and the effects resulting from those certain dispositions , are likewise determinate and necessary : ) therefore is the Will Superior to all Conditions and Obligations of Matter . And , that the Will hath this arbitrary Liberty of Election or Refusal , is demonstrable from hence ; that it is in the power of every man living to suspend or withold his assent to any proposition whatever , until he is able to make a certain judgement of the Verity or Falsity , convenience or inconvenience thereof : Which reason is so manifest , out of our own experience , that Des Cartes ( and He , you will confesse , was a man of admirable circumspection and strictnesse in examining Fundamental and Proleptical Notions ) doth securely account it among the First and most common Notions , that are Congenial and Innate in the Mind of every man. But , because the Will is only the Branch , and the Understanding the Root , upon which it growes , and by which it is to be regulated ; and that what I shall say of the Intellect , may be easily accommodated to the Will , with equal competency : I shall no longer insist upon the consideration of the Will , but fix my discourses wholly upon the Intellect , as the Principal and Primary Faculty , for proof of the Souls Immateriality ; drawing my Arguments first from the Actions of the Understanding , and then from its proper Objects . The Operations of the Intellect , which give evidence of the Souls Immateriality , may be reduced to Three distinct Orders or Classes : The First consisting of such , by which it may be evinced , that Intellection and Imagination are Acts perfectly distinct each from other : The Second of such , as are called Reflex Acts , by which the Intellect doth understand it self , and its own proper functions , and perceiveth that it doth understand : The Third of those , by which we do not only form Universals , or Universal Notions of things ; but also understand the very reason of Universality it self . And of each of these , I intend to speak plainly and succinctly , according to this method . I begin with Acts of the First Classis ; not that they are of any singular dignity or excellency above the rest , but that I may seasonably remove that obstacle of common prejudice , which men generally have ( and you , Lucretius , among the rest , as your self professed even now ) that the Intellect is not a Faculty distinct from the Phansie or Imagination ; as if , what we call Imagination in Beasts , were really the very same with that , which we call Understanding in Men , and only different from it , secundum magis & minus , according to the degrees of more and lesse , strength and acuteness . In Man we cannot but observe a certain sort of Intellection , by which the soul exercising her Faculty of Ratiocination , doth advance her self to the assured and distinct knowledge or understanding of some things , which is impossible for the Imagination ever to have any apprehension of , in regard there can be no Images or representations of them in the Phansy , though we should with never so much intention or earnestnesse imploy our mind to frame such resemblances . For example , when considering the Magnitude of the Sun , we follow the conduct of our Reason , and deduce inferences from sound premises ( which is Discourse ) we soon come to know most certainly , that the magnitude of the Sun is at least an hundred and sixty times greater than that of the Earth : Yet , do what we can , we can never bring our Imagination to apprehend any such vastnesse , but shall find it to consist only in such a small representation of the Solar Globe , as the Sense hath delivered into the brain . Nay , if we set our selves to meditate well and seriously upon the matter , we shall soon be satisfied , that we cannot imagine the Globe of the Earth ( which is yet vastly short of that of the Sun ) to be neer so great , as Demonstrations Geometrical convince it to be ; forasmuch as the Imagination ( which doth no more but copy out the pictures drawn on the tables of the Senses , and that as well in dimensions , as figure , colour , &c. ) conceiveth the Vault or Arch of the Heavens to insist upon the limits of the visible Horizon , on every side , and that the Clouds , Sun , Moon , Starrs , and whatever else we behold within that Arch or Semicircle , are not more distant from us , than the Horizon is . So that you see plainly , how little the Imagination doth apprehend the Heavens , and the whole World to be ; and how vastly short we come of imagining the Sun ( a small part only of the Heavens , and of the Universe ) to be so great , as really it is ; while we cannot imagine the whole World to be as great , as the Earth really is : But , if we appeal to our Understanding ; that doth instantly assure us , by irresistible demonstrations , that the World , Heavens , Sun , and Earth are of certain magnitudes incomparably greater , than those to which the Phansy can possibly extend its power of comprehension . Which I think , Lucretius , doth not obscurely import , that there is more than an imaginary difference between the Understanding and the Phansy . Lucretius . I do not think so , Athanasius . For , though perhaps I cannot so extend my Imagination , as to bring it to fathom or grasp so great a magnitude , as that of the Sun , all at once : Yet I can imagine a greater and greater magnitude by degrees , till at last I come to equal the whole real magnitude thereof . Nor is it necessary , that I should have in my Phansy an Image of greatness equal thereunto , while that small one exhibited to me by my sight , is sufficient to make me conceive , that the real magnitude is greater than the apparent : which I can do , only by comparing the several apparent magnitudes of one and the same Object , at several distances from the eye . Athanasius . Hear you , Sir. That Addition you make of one degree of magnitude to another successively , till you attain to an apprehension of the real magnitude of the Sun ; is not an act of your Imagination , but purely of your Reason , which finding the Image of the Suns greatnesse in your Phansy to be incomparably too small , to answer to that immense distance that you understand to be betwixt the Sun and your eye , doth , by its own proper Faculty , supply that disproportion , not by enlargement of the Image , but by inferring , from Geometrical Maxims , that a visible Object at that supposed distance , though it seem to be no bigger than a Coach-wheel , must yet in reality be by vast excesses greater . For , if you had no other Conception of the Suns Magnitude , but what is deduced from the sight ; how could it ever enter into your mind , that the Sun is really so much larger than it appears to be ? Manifest , therefore , it is , that that enlargement of your conception of the Suns Magnitude , beyond that of its apparence , is an act of your Intellect , wholly above the power of your Imagination . So likewise is your Comparing the several apparent magnitudes of one and the same Object , at several degrees of distance . Where give me leave to observe to you , that the Imagination or common sense can have no Idea of Distance , beyond one or two hundred feet : as is evident from hence , that the Sun and Moon , which are amongst Objects of the greatest remotenesse from the eye , and whose Diameters are to their Circumference , as one to an hundred , or thereabouts , seem to us to be at most two feet over ; though Reason doth assure us , that they are very great and very far distant . And nothing is more certain , than that we estimate the magnitude of a thing , from the cognition , or opinion at least , which we have in our mind of the Distance of it comparatively to the magnitude of the image of it drawn in the bottom of the Eye , and not absolutely by the magnitude of that image ; as I have amply and demonstratively declared in my discourse of the Manner of Vision , and as Des Cartes also hath demonstrated , in the sixt Chapter of his Dioptricks : Both which I am sure you have perused . However , because it conduceth somwhat to our present argument , permit me to give you this evident reason thereof ; that though the Image of an Object may be an hundred times greater , when the Object is very neer , than when the same is removed to a distance ten times greater : yet the Object it self doth not therefore appear to us an hundred times greater , but almost equal . So that the Comparation of Magnitude and Distance , is an act of the Understanding , not of the Imagination , as you presume . Lucretius . If all our Cognition doth proceed originally from our Senses , as all men concede , and Aristotle affirms in that Maxim , Nihil est in intellectu , quod non prius fuit in sensu ; and that Intellection is made by Analogy , by Composition , Division , Ampliation , Extenuation , and the like waies of managing the Species or Images of things immitted into the Common Sense , by the External Senses : Then certainly can we have no knowledge of any thing , whereof we have no Image ; and consequently without Imagination there is no Intellection , so that in fine to Imagine and to Understand a thing will be all one . Athanasius . Your Inference is not justifiable . For , the Common Notions , that are as it were engraven on our Minds , and that are not derived originally from the Observations of things by our selves , or the Tradition of them by others , do undeniably attest the contrary . Nor can any thing be more absurd , than to say , that all those Proleptical and Common Notions , which we have in our Mind , do arise only from impressions made upon the Organs of our Senses , by the incurse of External Objects ; and that they cannot consist without them : Insomuch as all sensible Impressions are singular , but those Notions Universal , having no affinity with , no relation unto , Corporeal motions or impressions . And , if you think the contrary , pray oblige me so far , as to teach me , what kind of Corporeal impression that may be , which formes this one Common Notion in our Mind , Quae sunt eadem uni tertio , sunt eadem interse . Not that I am affraid , to question the truth of even your Supposition , notwithstanding the generall allowance of that Maxim of the Philosopher . For , whoever dothwel observe , how far our Senses extend themselves , and what that is , which can arise from them , in order to our Faculty of Cogitating ; will easily be brought to confesse , that they exhibite to us no such Idea's of things , as we form of them in our thoughts , and that in those Idea's we form , there is nothing , which is not Innate and Congenial to our Mind or Faculty of Cogitating , except only those Circumstances , which relate to experience , or whereby we judge , that those Idea's , wehave now present to our Cogitation , may be conveniently referred to those external Objects , which we speculate . Not that those Objects have immitted those very Idea's into our Mind , by the Organs of the Senses ; but because they have immited somwhat , which hath given occasion to the Mind to form such Idea's , by its own Innate and proper Faculty , at this time rather than at any other . For , nothing comes to the Mind , from External Objects , by the mediation of the Senses , besides certain Corporeal Impressions ; and yet neither those Impressions , nor the Figures resulting from them , are such as we conceive in the Mind ; as Des Cartes hath amply proved in his Dioptricks : Whence it follows , that the Idea's of Motions and Figures are innate to the Mind ; that is , that the Mind hath an essential power to form them : for , when I say that such an Idea is in the Mind , I intend that it is not alwaies actually there , but Potentially , and the word Faculty will justifie that manner of speaking . I add moreover , that no Corporeal Image or Species , is ever received into the Mind ; and that pure Intellection , as well of a Corporeal , as an Incorporeal thing , is made without any Material Species or Image at all ; but , as for Imagination , to that , indeed , is required the presence of some Corporeal Image , to which the Mind may apply it self ; because there can be no Imagination but of Corporeal things ; and yet neverthelesse that Corporeal Image doth not enter into the Mind . For instance , the Intellect or Mind hath no material Species of that Magnitude , which it understands the Sun to be of : but comprehends the same to be in the Sun , by its own proper Virtue or Faculty , i. e. by Ratiocination . Whence we may securely conclude , that the Intellect , understanding a thing without a Material Image , must it self be immaterial : as on the contrary , the Imagination confesseth it self to be Material , because it is obliged to the use of Material Images . Truth is , the Intellect also makes use of Images conceived by the Phansy ( and therefore they are called Phantasms ) yet only as certain Means , or Degrees , that progressing through them , it may at length attain the knowledge of some things , which it afterward perceives as sequestred , and in a manner sublimed from those Phantasms : But this is that , which doth sufficiently argue its being Immaterial , because it carrieth it self beyond all Images material , and comes to the Science of some things , of which it hath no Phantasms . And thus you may perceive , that we do not owe all our Cognition to our Senses : And consequently , that to Understand and to Imagine is not ( as you would infer ) all one thing . Lucretius . I know not , what singular Faculty you may have , of abstracting your Understanding from all commerce with the Senses , in its negotiation for knowledge ; but sure I am , that the most learned and most subtile among the Peripateticks have unanimously held , that all our Cognition is made by the working of our Phansy ; and that the Soul doth not understand , but by the Speculation of Phantasms . Nay , Pomponatius and Sir K. Digby ( both which flew up to an admirable sublimity in their Contemplations , concerning the nature and operations of the Soul ) openly professe the Verity of that Axiome , from their own experience . So that unlesse you can give me some more pregnant testimony , of the Intellects knowing , without the immediate help of Images , pre-admitted by the Senses , than yet you have done : you must pardon me , if I believe , that in this point you affect to be paradoxical . Athanasius . The Sum of what I have said , of this Argument , is this ; that though the Intellect doth come to understand Corporeal Natures , by the mediation of Phantasms : Yet the Notions , which it frameth it to self of them , are Different from those Phantasms ; and that it hath the Knowledge of some things , whereof the Phansy can have no Images . And for Confirmation hereof , since you seem to desire it , I shall offer you this one Argument more . All the particular Knowledges , that man hath , or can have , concerning finite and compleat Entities ( except only the Notion of Being ) are only certain Comparisons or Respects between particular things : But of Respect , there can be no Image or representation at all , in the Phansy : and therefore our Knowledge is without Images . The truth of the Major proposition is evident from hence ; that of all the particular Notions we have ( except that of Being ) there is no one , which doth belong to some one of the Ten Praedicaments ; all which are so manifestly Respective , that no man doubteth them to be so . In particular , Substance hath a respect to Being ; Quantity doth consist in a respect unto Parts ; Quality hath a respect unto that Subject , which is denominated from it ; Action and Passion result from the Union of Quality and Substance ; Relation denoteth the respect betwixt the Relatum and Correlatum ; Ubi & Quando , or Where & When , arise from substance considered with the circumstances of Place and Time ; Situation is from the respect of Parts , to the Whole ; Habit is a respect to the Substance wherein it is , as being the propriety , by which it is well or ill , conveniently or inconveniently affected , in regard of its own Nature . Forasmuch , therefore , as all the Ten Predica - ; ments do consist only in diversity of Respects , and that each one of all the particular Notions which man is capable of , in this life , doth naturally fall under the comprehension of some one of those Predicaments : What Consequence can be more genuine , more manifest , than this , that all our Cognition is drawn from Comparisons or Respects . For the Minor ; if you question the verity thereof , pray , exercise your mind in seriously reviewing all things that have been derived from the Senses , and see if you can find among them any such thing as what we call a Respect . It hath neither Figure , nor Colour , nor Sound , nor Odour , nor Tast : and so cannot possibly be represented to the Sense , nor Imagination . And , if you cannot either meet with any Image of Respect , or frame one in your Imagination ; nor deny that all the Negotiation of the Intellect is in and by Respects : I hope , you will have little cause left for your suspicion , that I affect to be Paradoxical , in that I affirm , that the Notions of things in the understanding , are extreamly different from whatsoever is immitted into the Mind by the mediation of the Senses ; and so , that the Intellect hath a knowledge of some things , whereof the Imagination can have no Phantasms . Lucretius . But , all this while , you give me no Criterion , or certain Rule , by which I may be able to discern betwixt meer Imagination , and pure Intellection , within my self ; so as to know when I apprehend a thing by my Common Sense or Imaginative Faculty alone , and when by my Intellect alone , and without the immediate concurrence of my Imagination . Pray , therefore , assist your alleaged argument , by prescribing me some such infallible Note of Distinction : And then perhaps , I shall submit to your opinion . Athanasius . In simple Imagination , the Mind doth alwaies apply it self to the Image of the thing speculated ; and in pure Intellection , it quitteth the Image , and converteth it self upon it Self : The former act being still accompanied with some labour , and contention of the Mind ; the latter free , easie , and instantaneous . As in this Example . When I think upon a Triangle , I do not only instantly conceive it to be a Figure comprehended in three lines , but I also behold those three lines , with the eye of my Mind , as if they were really present ; and this is that I call Imagination . But , when I think of a Chiliogon , or Figure with a thousand Angles ; albeit I as well understand , that the same is a Figure consisting a thousand sides , as I do a Triangle to be one of only three sides : Yet I cannot as well imagine all those thousand sides , or behold them distinctly and at once , with the eye of my Mind , as if they were really present ; for , though then , because of my custom of alwaies imagining somthing , I have some certain Figure confusedly represented to me ; yet that that is not the representation of a Chiliogon , is manifest from hence , that it is no whit different from that , which I should represent to my self , in case I thought upon a Myriogon , or any other Figure with more sides : nor doth it help me at all to the knowing of those proprieties , by which a Chiliogon differs from other Polygon Figures . And , if the question be of only a Pentagon , I can understand the nature of that Figure ( as of a Chiliogon ) without the help of my Imagination ; and I can also imagine the same , by applying the acies of my Mind , to the five sides thereof , and to the Area contained in them : But , here , I plainly perceive , that to imagine thus , there is required a certain peculiar strife , or Contention of my Mind , such as I use not in the meer understanding of that Figure , or any other Polygon ; which new Contention and Labour of my Mind doth clearly shew the Difference betwixt Imagination and pure Intellection : And this is the best Note or Character of Distinction , I can in the present think upon to give you . But , it requireth strict and profound Meditation to observe it ; and therefore let me desire you to consider what I have said of this Difference betwixt Imagining and Understanding , to morrow morning , in your bed , when your Spirits are clear and active , your Faculties vigorous , and your Mind quiet and serene . Isodicastes . You say very wel , Sir ▪ For , notwithstanding you have argued with singular subtility , in defence of this Distinction ; yet , untill a man shall find his own Experience give light and Confirmation to your Reasons , the thing will remain involved in much obscurity . And , therefore , since frequent and calm Meditation is so necessary , to the habituating our Mind to speculate abstractedly , without material Phantasms , and to know when it doth so : Lucretius and I , will take some time , to meditate as seriously and profoundly , as we can , upon this Nicety , before we decalre our final determination therupon ; and in the mean time leave it tanquam Problema utrinque disputatum , as a Problem well disputed on both sides , but not fully decided by either . And so , if you please , you are at liberty to proceed to some new Argument of the Souls Immateriality . Athanasius . The Second Branch of the Method I proposed , ariseth ( as you may remember ) from that kind of Operation in the Soul , whereby the Intellect , Reflecting upon it self , doth become its own Object , and so understand it self , and its own Functions , and know it self to be an Intellect , or thinking and discerning Nature . If therefore we well consider these Reflex Acts of the Understanding ; we can no longer doubt its being Immaterial . That the Intellect doth thus reflect upon its self , and discern its own knowledge , needs no other testimony but that of a mans own Experience ; it being impossible for any person living not to know , that he knows what he knows , as is implied in that common Proverb , I very well know what I know . And , that this Operation is far above the power of whatsoever is Material , deriveth its evidence from hence ; that every Material thing or Agent is so strictly obliged to some certain place , either permanently or successively , as that it cannot move toward it self , but if moved at all , is moved toward some thing divers from it self . Which truly is the Reason of that Canon Law in Nature , that Nothing can act upon it self . For , however one and the same thing may somtimes seem to act upon it self ; yet really it is only one part of that thing act's upon another part of the same thing : As when one of a mans hands striketh against the other , or the end of one finger against the palm of the hand , but the end of the same finger cannot strike upon it self . And hence comes it , that the Sight cannot see it self , nor the Hearing hear it self , nor the Imagination perceive that it doth imagine , nor any Corporeal Faculty whatever perceive its own Functions . We know , indeed , when and what we see , or hear , or imagine , &c. but that Knowledge is the sole and proper effect of that Power or Faculty within us , which being Superior to all Sense and Imagination , and so comprehending all their activity in its own , doth perceive them , their Objects and Operations , judge of them , and reflect upon both those judgements , and it self that frames them . And the Reason , why the Imagination cannot perceive it self , or its own actions , is because the Act of the Phansy tendeth only to the Image of the thing imagined , not to the perception of that Image ; for , of a Perception there can be no Image . It being then most certain , that the Intellect doth familiarly reflect upon it self , and understand its own Intelligence ; and as certain , that such a power doth transcend the capacity of any thing inseparably immersed in Matter , and confined to the conditions of Matter : I cannot see how it is possible for you to avoid or decline the necessity of the Consequence , viz , That the Intellect is a Faculty Immaterial . And here I dare you , Lucretius , or the subtilest Epicurean in the World , to try the strength of your Philosophy , upon this Argument ; for to me , I professe , it seems not much inferior to a Demonstration . Lucretius . Why Sir , do you conceive , that what you affirm of the impossibility of internal Reflection , in any but an Immaterial Agent , is of Universal truth ? Athanasius . Seriously I do , and upon the Authority of that Reason , I now alleaged , I think it justifiable to persevere in that perswasion , untill your self , or some other person shall offer me an Instance , wherein that General position doth admit of an Exception . Lucretius . What think you , then , of sundry admirable actions of some Brute Animals , which seem to implie Dubitation , Resolution , Invention , and the like effects of a discoursive and self-knowing Principle within them ? For example , when you observe a Dogg in hunting to cast about , trie the ground , stand still , run somtimes forward , somtimes turn aside , and then on a suddain change his course and return back ; will you not allow this to arise from a kind of Examination of the actions of his Sense ? And doth not that Examination import a Reflection of the discerning Faculty both upon it self , and its action of discerning ? Athanasius . Alas , Lucretius , this is so light an Objection , that I cannot but wonder , that it should retard your assent to a position of so much weight , as that , that no Material thing can act upon it self ; especially since you have read the excellent discourses of Monsieur Des Cartes , and Sir K. Digby ; wherein they have so clearly solved all the most seemingly rational actions of Beasts , by sensible motions and corporeal principles . However , that you may no longer be deluded , in conceiving , that the suddain stopping , turning aside , returning , &c. of a Dogg , doth argue this eminent Reflection of a Faculty upon it self , which I attribute to a Man , as the propriety of his Intellect ; be pleased to know , that the most it doth import , is only Reminiscence in the Dogg , by reason of some new Species in his Phansy , accidentally intercurrent , and diverting him from the pursuit of that other , which immediately before possessing , and as it were beating upon his Phansy , had engaged him to a different course : For , as often as the Species that move and affect his Sense , and so his Imagination , are changed , so often doth he change his course and vary his pursuit . And certainly nothing comes nearer to a manifest absurdity , than to suppose , that a Dogg can , as it were , say within himself , I imagine that I do imagine ; or I perceive that I am a perceiving essence , and the like ; which is an action of such singular eminence above all what we observe to proceed from Doggs , or any the most docible and cunning Beasts in nature , that it ought not to be imputed to any thing below an Immaterial and self-Cognoscent Being , such as the Reasonable Soul of Man is . And it was upon this essential prerogative of the Human Soul , that Des Cartes seemeth to have reflected , when under the terme Cogitation , he understood all things that are done in us , cum Conscientia , with knowledge that we do them ; so as that not only to understand , to wil , to imagine ; but also to have the sense of a thing , is the same as to Cogitate , or Think . For ( saith he ) if I argue thus with my self , I see , or I walk ; therefore I am ; and understand this only of that Vision , or walking , which is performed by the help of my body , then the Conclusion is not absolutely certain , because it often happens that in my sleep , I dream that I see , and walk , when in truth I do neither : But , if I understand it of my Perception , or Conscience of my seeing or walking , with reference only to my Mind , which alone doth perceive or think , that it doth see or walk ; then the Conclusion is most certain , because it is of the nature of my Mind to be Conscious of its own actions . Which Description of Thinking , I the rather commemorate , because I have observed many to quarrel at it , as incompetent and somwhat extravagant ; not comprehending the Authors principal Ground , the constant Reflection of the Mind upon its own Operations . Lucretius . So that I perceive , you wholly exclude all Animals ( except Man ) from being conscious of their own actions : But with how much reason ; I shall beseech Isodicastes here to judge , who cannot but frequently have remarked the contrary , nothing being more common , then to see a setting Dog to come creeping and trembling with fear and shame to his Master , when either through too much speed in hunting , or the aversenesse of the wind carrying away the scent from him , he hath chanced to spring the Partridges , which he ought to have set : And on the other side , when he hath made a fair Set , and the game is taken , you shall have him leap and exsult for joy , and run confidently to his Master for his reward . And what can his fear and shame be referred unto , but his being conscious that he hath committed a fault , and so deserves to be beaten for it ? or his exultation in his own cunning , but to his being conscious that he hath done well , and so ought to be encouraged and recompensed with some share of the Prey ? Athanasius . I thought I had prevented your recourse to all Objections taken from the actions of Brute Animals , that carry a semblance of Reason in them ; by remitting you to your remembrance of what you have read in the satisfactory Discourses of Des Cartes , and Sir K. Digby concerning them : but seeing you will not acquiesce in that reference , let me tell you briefly , that what you now urge of a Dogs owning his faults , and exultation in his own skill and cunning , is not sufficient to entitle him to that transcendent capacity of acting with Knowledge , and Reflection , which I affirm to be the propriety of Mans informing Principle within him . For , the Dog having been used to be beaten , as often as he springs the game ; no sooner see 's the Birds upon their wings , but instantly the image of the smart he hath formerly suffered from his Master , upon the like occasion , recurrs to his Phansy , and affecteth him with fear : As on the other side , the sight of the birds in the Net , brings afresh into his memory the Image of that pleasure , wherewith his Sense was affected , in eating the heads of the Partridge , and strongly possessing his Imagination , causeth that passion of joy in him , which betrayeth it self by his leaping and skipping . For , in the Phansy of Beasts there is alwaies a conjunction of the Image of that particular good or harm they have formerly received from such or such things , with the Images of the things themselves : which is , indeed , the cause of all those so much admired effects , called Sympathies and Antipathies , amongst Animals of different kinds , as I have more particularly declared in my Physiology , where I treated of the Manifestation of Occult Qualities . And this reason may serve to solve what you object , concerning Beasts being Conscious when they have pleased , or displeased their Masters ; without entrenchment upon the Prerogative of Man , whereby he is capable of acting with knowledge , and reflecting upon that knowledge , as part and the principall part of his Essence . But , since you have appealed to the judgement of Isodicastes , I humbly expect his Verdict . Isodicastes . That many Brute Animals , especially such as are made tame and domestick , and frequently conversant with men , are conscious of their faults ; daily experience doth testifie : But , that they are therefore animated with a Soul capable of knowing it self , and its actions , by reflecting upon it self : seems to me to be altogether inconsequent ; because , as Athanasius hath explained the reason and manner of that particular action in them , it doth import no more than what belongs to a meer Sensitive Soul. So that , Lucretius , unlesse you can impugne his Argument now alleadged , for proof of the Immateriality of the Human intellect by some more important Objection ; I should be unjust not to allow it to be strongly perswasive . Athanasius . Being free , then , from any impediment of further Contradiction to this Argument of the Intellect's being an Immaterial Faculty , from its Reflex acts ; I come now to the Third sort of its Operations , which testifie the same , viz. those whereby we do not only form to our selves Universals , or Universal Notions , but also understand the reason of Universality it self . In Universal Notions we are to observe Two considerables ; ( 1. ) their Abstraction ; ( 2. ) their Universality : And either of these Conditions is alone sufficient to inforce a perswasion of the Immateriality of that Faculty , the Intellect , which doth so apprehend them . For , as to the First ; it being evidently impossible , that any Corporeal thing should be exempted from all Material conditions , and differences of singularity , as Magnitude , Figure , Colour , Time , Place , &c. and undeniably certain , that the Understanding hath a power to devest them of all and every one of those conditions , and circumstances , and to speculate them in that abstracted state , devoid of all particularities ; it followeth of pure necessity , that the Understanding , which hath this power so to abstract them , must it self be exempt from all matter , and of a Condition more eminent , than to be confined to material Conditions . And , as to the Other , viz. their Universality ; this addeth to their abstraction one admirable particularity more , which is , that they abstract in such sort , as to expresse at the same time the very thing , they abstract from . Which is not a little wonderful ; since it is not easie to conceive , that the same thing should be , and not be , in one and the same Notion . And yet if we seriously reflect upon what we mean , when we say thus , Every man hath two hands ; we shall soon perceive , that we therein expresse nothing , whereby one individual man is distinguished from another : though that very word Every , doth import that every single person is distinct from another ; so that here is ( as Sir K. Digby most wittily saith ) Particularity it self expressed in Common . Now , this being impossible to be done , in any Corporeal representation whatsoever , it is a necessary consequence , that the Intellect , which hath this singular propriety of thus comprehending and expressing Universals , is it self Incorporeal . Now , if you should require of me to declare , how the Understanding doth frame to it self Universals , when there are no such things in Nature ; I shall explain the Manner of that transcendent Operation to be thus . When we Cogitate or think upon Individuals , that have resemblance each to other ; we accommodate one and the same Idea to all particulars comprehended under that one General notion : and so using to impose one and the same name upon all the things represented by that Common Idea , that name becomes Universal . Thus , when we see two stones , and apply our Mind to consider , not their Nature , but only that they are Two ; we form to our selves an Idea of that Number , which we call a Binary , or Two : And afterward , when we see two Birds , or two Trees , and consider not their Nature , but only that they are two ; we repeat the same Idea we had before , which comes thereby to be Universal , and we call this number by the same Universal name . After the same manner , when we behold a Figure comprehended in Three lines , we form in our Mind a certain Idea thereof , which we call the Idea of a Triangle ; and we afterward alwaies use the same Idea , as an Universal one , to represent to us all other Figures consisting of three lines . Again , when we perceive , that among Triangles there are some , which have one right angle , and others which have not ; we form in our selves the Universal Idea of a rectangle Triangle , which in relation to the former Idea , as more General , we call a Species : And that rectitude of the Angle , is the Universal Difference , by which all rectangle Triangles are distinguished from others . Further , that in all such Triangles , the Basis is in power equal to the powers of the sides ; this is a Propriety competent to all such , and only to such Triangles . And lastly , if we suppose that some of these Triangles are moved , and others not ; this will be in them an Universal Accident . And after this Manner doth the Understanding frame those Five Universals , Genus , Species , Difference , Propriety , and Accident : which really are but so many several Modes , or Manners of our Cogitating , or Thinking ; and having no existence in Nature , but only in Mans Understanding , do bear pregnant testimony of its being Immaterial . Lucretius . Here you say , it is undeniably certain , that the Understanding hath a power to abstract things from all conditions of Matter , and all Particularities ; when for my part , I professe , I can find no such power in my self . For , after many the most serious essayes I could make , I could never yet conceive an Universal , but there doth alwaies occur to my Mind somwhat of Particularity , and that under some certain Magnitude , Figure , Colour , and the like adjuncts of Body . So that it seems , either I have not an Understanding as Active and Comprehensive , as other men have : or else those Unbodied and Universal Notions ; of which you and other Philosophers talke so solemnly , are meer Chimera's , invented by curious and wanton Wits , to amuse such vulgar heads , as mine is . Athanasius . You cannot be ignorant of that power in your self , as you pretend , Lucretius . For , though your Mind is not capable of devesting Objects of their particular Magnitude , Figure , Colour , and the other concomitants of Matter , altogether , and at once : yet it can easily doe it successively , or one after another ; and that is sufficient to attest and manifest , that the Intellect hath this power of Abstracting , and forming Universals ; as I have explained . Lucretius . I have read a certain book , written by one Hieronymus Rorarius , a learned Prelate , conteining a collection of all Arguments commonly urged to prove , that many Brute Animals have the use of Reason not only aswell as , but in a greater proportion than Man himself hath : and among the rest He affirmes , that they also frame Universals , as in particular the species of Man , according to which as often as they see a two-legged and erect Animal , they take it to be a Man , and not a Lion , or Horse , or the like : And if so , what becomes of this Prerogative of the Human Intellect , you so much depend upon , for testimony of its Incorporiety ? Athanasius . If this were true , yet doubtless Brutes can have no knowledg of the Universality of that Species , or universal Nature of Man , viz. Humanity , as abstracted from every degree of singularity . But , we have no reason to grant the Supposition ; for , as Brutes doe not apprehend things abstracted , but concrete , as not Colour , but a body coloured , not a sapour , but a body sapid , &c : so ought we to conceive , that there is nothing else in a Dog ( for instance ) but only the Memory of singulars , or of those single men , whom he hath seen , and taken notice of ; and when he meets a man , whom he hath not seen afore , his phansy instantly presents him the image of some one he hath seen afore , and so he takes him to be a man. Nor can you recurr to that vulgar subterfuge , that we are not so well acquainted with the nature of Beasts , as to understand what is done in the secret cells of their brains , and after what manner they apprehend objects : seeing it is not difficult for us , to inferr as much , from their operations or external actings . For , in case they could aspire to so much perfection , as to frame Universal Notions of things , as we doe , and reason upon them , as we doe ; it were not to be doubted , but it would come into their minds , to enquire into the acts of their progenitors , what they knew before them ; how they might signify to others at distance , what themselves have thought and done ; and how they might devolve memorials to their posterity . They would likewise attempt to frame Arts usefull in their lives , and doe many noble actions ; of which it is impossible they should have the least hint or notice . For as much , therefore , as no age can give us an Example of any such action done by any Beast whatever ; we may safely conclude , that they have no notion of Universals , as Rorarius and you from him seem to suppose . So that this prerogative of Mans Understanding in framing Universals , remains entire and untoucht : and while it doth so , I need not fear the stability of what I have founded thereupon , viz that the. Human Intellect is Incorporeall . And therefore , if you have no more to object against this my reason ; I doubt not but Isodicastes will give his vote on my side . Idosicastes . I should , be grossly partial , Athanasius , if I did not confess , that you have foiled your adversary at this weapon : yet I am sure Lucretius is so candid an Antagonist , as to account it no dishonour to be overcome by Truth ; and I presume He doth contend , only to make your conquest the more absolute . Athanasius . To these few Reasons of the Immateriality of the Human Soul , desumed from the excellency of her operations , I might here add a multitude of others , of the same extraction and equivalent force , as in particular , that of the existence of Corporeal natures in the Soul , by the power of apprehension ; that of her drawing from multitude to unity , her apprehension of Negations and Privations ; her conteining of Contraries without opposition ; her capacity to move , without being moved herself ; the incompossibility of opposite propositions in the understanding ; and sundry others : the least whereof is of evidence and vigour sufficient to carry the cause against all those Enemies to her Immortality , who would degrade her from the divine dignity of her nature , to an equality with the souls of Beasts , that are but certain dispositions of Matter , and so obnoxious to dissolution upon change of the same by contrary agents . But , considering that the certainty of truth ought to be estimated rather by the weight than number of testimonies ; and that the discourses I have already framed concerning some of the Soul 's proper operations , are clear enough to give light to any judicious and well disposed person , how to inferr the like conclusion from those other of her operations , which I have not insisted upon : I shall now withdraw my owne and your thoughts from her operations , and convert them , for onely a few minutes upon her Objects , that so we may examine whether they be such , as that it is possible for them to fall under the apprehension of any , but a faculty superior to Materiality . Concerning the Objects , therefore , of the Understanding , they are all things in the Universe , and so not only Corporeal and sensible natures , but Incorporeals also , and such as are many spheres above the utmost capacity of the Sense . That Corporeals belong to the Cognisance of the Intellect , I think no man will dispute : and that this knowledge doth prove it to be incorporeal , is manifest from hence , that it knowes the formal reason of Body , or Corporiety it self , and that it doth consist in extensibility : which it could no more doe , unless it self were above Corporiety , than a man could see the amplitude of the sea if he were immersed into the bottom of it . Nay I might hence deduce it to be Inorganical ; insomuch as it knowes not only corporeal organs , but comprehends also the very reason and forme of an Organ . For , since an Organ is alwayes somewhat intermediate betwixt the Faculty and the Object , or thing for the perception of which it was made ; and therefore cannot act upon it self , or be that thing on which the Faculty worketh by an Organ : The Intellect could no more be exercised in knowing an Organ , or the reason of it , if it self were an Organ , or Faculty Organical , than one Instrument , or tool of an Artist can imploy it self upon another Instrument , or serve to that end , for which it was framed , without the help of the Artist . Lucretius . You say here , Athanasius , that no man doubteth of the knowledge of Corporeal Natures , by the Understanding ; when you cannot but remember that Pyrrho and Sextus Empiricus have many Disciples in the World , who renounce all Knowledge whatesover , unlesse it be that of their own invincible ignorance : And for my own part , though I shall not go so high , as to say , we know nothing at all ; yet sure , I am , we do not know the intimate Nature of so much as the smallest Plant that grows upon the ground . And if so , I cannot see how you will avoid the blame of begging the Question . Athanasius . How dangerous a Doctrine that of the Scepticks is , as to the regulation of our Minds , in all the Actions and Occurences of our lives , by certain setled Judgements in the Understanding , drawn from Philosophical Maxims , and confirmed by experience ; I have professedly declaclared else where , and therefore shall not now repeat . But , as to your Objection , that we do not know the intimate Natures of even Corporeal things ; I answer , that though there be nothing in the World , to which the capacity of mans Understanding is not extensible , yet there are sundry things , which by reason of many impediments , it doth not actually know . But is this , think you , to be charged upon a defect in the Understanding ; or upon the obscurity of the things themselves ? Do you but find a Cause , that may reveal these things , and as it were draw them out of that obscurity , wherein they are so deeply involved ; and the Intellect , I will undertake , shall soon discern and know them to the full . The Eye doth not perceive what is at the Centre of the Earth ; will you therefore conclude an absolute incapacity therein , of perceiving what is there concealed , in case there were some Cause found out , which should unlock the bowels of the Earth , and lay open whatever is therein contain'd ? I believe you wil be more advised ; considering that the drawing of a Curtain betwixt a visible Object and the sight , doth not diminish the power of the sight , but only render the Object inconspicuous . However , therefore , our Reason be not so perspicacious , as to transfix the Essences of things , and discern what is the intimate Nature of Objects ; yet by ratiocination we advance so far toward it , as to know , that besides all those qualities , and accidents , which are obvious to the Sense , and to the imagination , there is yet somwhat more remaining , which is not obvious to either the Sense , or Imagination . And to understand thus much , is enough to exalt the Understanding many degrees above all Sense and Imagination ; and consequently above all Corporeal Conditions . Whereunto I shall add , that there is no Corporeal Faculty , but is confined to the perception of only some one certain Genus of things ; as in particular , the Sight to Visibles , the Hearing to Sounds , &c. and though the Imagination seems to be extended to very many kinds ; yet all those are contained under the Classis of Sensibles ; and thence it comes , that all Animals , which are endowed only with Phantasy , are addicted to only Sensibles , no one affecting the Knowledge of any thing which falleth not under the Sense . But the Intellect alone is that , which hath for its Object , omne verum , and ( as the Schools speak ) Ens ut Ens , every Being in the Universe ; and therefore hath no mixture of matter , but is wholly free from it , and Incorporeal . A truth so clearly revealed by the Light of Nature , that Anaxagoras said , and Aristotle subscribed , Esse Intellectum necessariò 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Immistum , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , quoniam intelligit universa . And as for Incorporeals , that they likewise are within the Orb of the Intellects activity ; and do not escape the apprehension of this unbounded and Universal Capacity ; needs no other proof , besides that of our own sublime speculations concerning the Nature of God , of Intelligences , of Angels , of the Human Soul , and whatever else belongs to the Science of Metaphysicks ▪ which teacheth us to abstract from all Matter and Quantity . Nor doth the Understanding rest in the investigation of all substances immaterial , but flieth out of Trismegistus's Circle , and breaks through the battlements of the World into the Extra-mundan Spaces , and there finds the notion of a certain Being , which belongs not to the Categorie either of Substances , or Accidents , but is independent even upon God himself : and that is Space , and to this it gives Imaginary Dimensions . Nay , I presume it will not be accounted paradoxical in me to affirm , that Immaterial Objects are most genuine and natural to the Understanding ; especially since Des Cartes hath irrefutably demonstrated , that the Knowledge we have of the existence of the Supreme Being , and of our own Souls , is not only Proleptical and Innate in the Mind of man , but also more certain , clear , and distinct , than the Knowledge of any Corporeal Nature whatever : according to that Canon of Thom. Aquinas and most of the School-men , Nullares , qualiscunque est , intelligi potest , nisi Deus intelligatur priùs . However , this is most indubitable , that the principal and most congenial Motives or incitements of the Soul , are abstracted Considerations ; as hope of what is to come , of Eternity , Memory of what is past , Virtue , Honour , and the like , which arise not from material principles , and have no commerce with Elementary compositions . Now , if the Understanding were not it self purely Immaterial , it would be absolutely impossible for it ever so much as to suspect , much lesse to know assuredly , that there were any such things as Incorporeals in the Universe : The Reason being obvious from that rule of Aristotle , juxtim apparens prohibet alienum . For , as the eye when discoloured with a yellow humour in the jaundice , can see no Object , but it appears tincted with the same colour : So could not the Intellect perceive any other but Corporeal Natures , if it self were not only perfused with , but wholly and intirely immersed into , Corporiety ; so that of necessity it must be Incorporeal . Lucretius . Me thinks now , you might with equal reason inferr the quite Contrary , viz. that the Intellect could not have any perception of Corporeal Natures , if ▪ it self were not likewise Corporeal ; there being required some kind of proportion and compossibility betwixt the Faculty percipient , and the Object perceptible , as is exemplified in each of the Senses : which is the sole reason of their opinion , who contend , that the Sensitive part of the Soul is Material . Athanasius . I positively deny that , Lucretius . For , since the Order or Degree of Incorporeal is superior to that of Corporeal ; thence it follows , that by virtue of that its superiority or excellency , it possesseth all the perfections of the inferior , and that in a more eminent manner . So that as the degree Animal , being nobler than the degree meerly Vegetable , doth in a more excellent proportion and manner , comprehend Vegetation , or Nutrition , Accretion , and Generation , which are the functions of the Vegetable : In like manner , doth the degree Spiritual or Incorporeal , being more noble and perfect than the meer Animal , and Corporeal , comprehend cognition Corporeal , or Sensation and Imagination , which are the functions proper to the degree Animal . And thus you see , that my inference of the Intellect's capacity to know Incorporeal essences , from its own being a Spiritual Faculty , is genuine and orderly : but yours , of its being Corporeal from its capacity to know Corporeals , is false and preposterous . Lucretius . But may not I lawfully object , that we do not conceive God , or Angells , or Intelligences , as Immaterial Substances ; when we find in our selves , that the mind doth alwaies speculate the Divine Essence it self under some Species of a Body , and though not of a Human Body ( which yet is most usual ) yet of an aereal , or ethereal one , or somwhat more fine and subtile , if any such there be ? Athanasius . You may make this Objection , there is no doubt ; but it will not be sufficient to prevail against what I have urged , concerning the Intellect's extensibility even to God and other Intellectual essences . For the understanding , though it make use of those Phantasms , that are proper to the Imagination , as the means or degrees , by which it mounteth it self up to a sublimity above all Corporeal species ; doth yet , by ratiocination , at length attain to that height , as to be ascertained ; that , beside all body of whatsoever thinness purity and subtility , there is moreover a certain supereminent substance , which hath nothing of Corporiety in it . The Intellect , I confess , doth not positively or intuitively ( as they say ) know this Substance : but , since this is its condition , while immersed in a body , which doth as it were infect it with corporeal representations or Phantasms , and eclipse its power of Intuition ; it is abundantly sufficient to our Conclusion , that even in this mortal body it doth retein and conserve its incorporeal nature , that it doth understand that substance Negatively or Abstractively . For , this investigation or search after God , and our concluding him ( out of the force of contradiction , or by way of Negation ) to be Eternal , Infinite , Omnipotent , Omniscient , Immutable , with all other perfections imaginable essential to his nature ; doth clearly demonstrate , that though the Intellect be obliged to make use of Corporeal images , in order to its knowledge ; yet it is not obliged to acquiesce in them , so as to enquire no further , but hath such a liberty and energy , as tht it doth ratiocinate beyond them , and conclude , that there is somewhat else in being , which cannot be represented by any Corporeal Image or species ; and which though it cannot understand what it is in the fullness of its nature , yet is it certain that such a nature there is ; and more than that , is not required to justify my Assertion . You may remember , how Aristotle and other great Philosophers asserted the existence of Caelestial Intelligences , Abstracted Movers , and Immaterial Substances ; not that they could see them , with the eye of the body , or frame any Idea's of them in their Imagination : but that by profound reasoning , from the magnitude , forme , situation , motion and duration of the Celestial bodies , they came to understand , that in nature there could not but be such Abstracted and Immaterial Movers , which governed and continually regulated those vast and glorious Orbs , in their Admirable and well ordered Motions . Lucretius . If what you say , were true ; it would follow , that in diseases of the brain , and such as cause a depravation of the Phansy ; the Intellect , as being more at liberty to exercise its faculty of pure and abstracted intellection , would arise to the cognition of Immaterial things with more facility and promptness , than at any other time . But we daily see , that men of disturbed Phansies , and alienated minds ( as the vulgar phrase is ) are so far from understanding more clearly and distinctly , than before , that they cannot reason at all ; and it was not without cause , that some Philosophers have held , that a man deprived of any one of his senses , can not rightly discourse of that sense , or the objects belonging to it . Athanasius . You have no reason to urge this upon me ; for I formerly rejected that error of the Averrhoist , that the Soul is a Forme meerly Assistent , and in its functions altogether independent upon the body ; and what I averr is this , that the soul of Man doth truely and intirely informe the body , and to that purpose nature hath added senses and Imagination , as handmaids to attend it in its operations , and to give it opportunities of reasoning from what they bring in . So that it ought not to seem strange , that upon the loss of a sense , or perturbation of the Phansy , men cannot reason so exactly as before : and it sufficeth , that when the whole oeconomy of mans nature is in tune and order , his understanding is capable of reasoning so as to advance itself above the body , as far as is permitted to its nature , and at length to conclude , that there is somewhat Incorporeal . And now I have recited all the Arguments , which I thought most material towards the proof of the Soul's Immortality , drawn from considerations Physical , and in particular from the souls Operations and Objects : I referr my self to the Noble Isodicastes here , who is pleased to assume upon himself the trouble of acting the part of an Arbiter betwixt us in this dispute , whether you have been able to dissolve them . Isodicastes . How unfit I am , to have the casting and decisive voice , in a matter of this high and abstruse nature , I am sufficiently conscious . But , since you are both pleased to create me judge of this your Debate , I shall adventure to give you my sentiments briefly and clearly upon this last Argument of the Soul 's being Immaterial , drawn from the unboundedness of the Intellect , as to its Object ( for , of the rest , I delivered my opinion freely , as they were alleaged ) . Truly , I judge it to be as highly convincing , as any of which the subject is capable . And , for my owne part , I derive to my self from thence , a full confirmation of my beleif ; that there is nothing in the world too vast for the comprehension of mans understanding , nothing too small for its discernment : and whether such a divine Capacity be competent to any but an Immaterial Essence , is not hard to determine . Now , the Intellect being thus found to be above all conditions of Matter , I doubt not but Lucretius will readily allow , what you have so learnedly concluded upon , viz , that the Human soul , whose Faculty it is , is above all possibility of Dissolution , at least from Natural Agents . And therefore , Athanasius , if you are not already weary with discoursing so long and strictly , be pleased to proceed to those Moral Considerations importing the souls Immortality , which I remember you promised , in the beginning . Athanasius . The Moral Considerations usually brought in defence of the Souls Incorruptibility , are Principally Three : ( 1 ) The Universal Consent of Man kind . ( 2 ) Mans Innate and Inseparable Appetite of Immortality . ( 3 ) The Iustice of God , in rewarding Good men , and punishing evil , after death . Concerning the First ; howbeit there ever have been , and still are among men , some differences about the state of the Soul , after death ; about the place of its posthume Mansion ; and other circumstances : Yet there ever hath been and stil is an Universal concurrence among them in this Tenent , that it doth survive the body , and continue the same for ever . Now , as Cicero judiciously observeth , Omni in re Consensio omnium gentium , Lex Naturae putanda est , in every thing the general consent of all Nations is to be accounted the Law of Nature : And consequently the Notion of the ▪ Soul 's Immortality must be implanted , by Nature's own hand , in the Mind of every man ; and who so dares to deny it , doth impugne the very principles of Nature . Lucretius . Your Assumption here , that all Nations conspire in the belief of the Souls Eternal subsistence after death ; is contradicted by many good Authors , who writing of certain salvage and barbarous Nations discovered in the New World , say of them , that their rudenesse and ignorance approacheth so nearly to that of Beasts , that they have not the least thought or conceipt of any such thing as the Souls being a distinct substance from the Body , or that it is indissoluble . And , as I remember , Pliny affirms the same of the Calaici , a wild and Atheistical people of Old Spain . Athanasius . Granting these relations to be true , yet if we profoundly examine , wherupon their idolatrous devotion ( and there never was any Nation without some kind of Religion and Veneration of a Deity ) is grounded , and what dark belief lies blended under their ridiculous worship , we shall soon find , that those Indians have some implicite belief of the Eternity of their Souls , as may appear from hence , that they assign the Soul some certain place of residence after its separation from the body , and that either beyond the Sea , or beyond great Mountains , or the like . Again , being observed , to stand in awe of Devils , to be terrified with mightly Spectr's and apparitions , and to be astonished at Magical impostures : it is evident , that if we dissect all their perswasion to the bottom , we shall detect it to contain an opinion of the Souls Immortality . But , though it may be true , that there are now , or formerly have been any such Salvage people , as were wholly destitute of any the least thought or hint of the Souls superviving the funerals of the body ; yet we may return the same Answer , concerning them , that is due to those , who should object , that there alwaies have been , and now are some particular Persons of all Nations , with whom the belief of the Souls Immortality can find no entertainment or credit : which is , that therefore it doth not follow , that the perswasion of its Immortality ought not to be reputed General ; and that the dissent of a few persons doth not make a General Consent not to be Natural . For , as , though some men are born only with one foot , and some lay violent hands upon themselves ; it is not lawful for us thence to argue , that it is not natural to men to have two feet , or that the desire of life is not natural to all men : So , though some are so unsound and monstrous in their judgement , as to perswade themselves , that their Souls are Mortal ; yet is not the contrary perswasion of all other men , therefore to be esteemed Non-natural . Lucretius . You cannot be ignorant , that there have been not only rude and vulgar heads , but even Philosophers , and those of sound judgement too , who have positively denied , and strongly impugned the Immortality of the Soul ; and among therest , my Master , Epicurus , who hath the reputation of one of the most piercing and sublime Wits among all the Ancients : and therefore this position of the Soul 's Incorruptibility ▪ seems not to be so Universal , as you presume . Athanasius . But , pray , consider ; these Philosophers were but Men , and so might erre , in their solitary conceipts and opinions , as well as the most rude and illiterate among the vulgar ; as is evident from hence , that the same persons held many other opinions of things more obvious and familiar , which yet are highly absurd and manifestly ridiculous . And what though Epicurus and some few other of the Grecian Scholiarchs asserted the Mortality of the Soul ; are there not ten times as many others , as high in esteem for Solidity and Wit , who have with excellent arguments defended the Immortality of it ? Lucretius . Let us leave your Assumption , and reflect upon the validity of your Inference . Though all men living should be perswaded of the truth of this opinion , That the Soul is Superiour to death and corruption ; yet would it not follow , that therefore that perswasion is Natural and Congenial to our very Essence , as you conclude . For , it is not impossible that an Universal perswasion may be erroneous , every man living being , by the imperfection of his Nature , obnoxious to Error ; and Cicero ( deriding the vanity of Auspices , which in his time were in great esteem among all Kings , People , and Nations ) saith , quasi quicquam sit tam valde , quâm nihil sapere , vulgare ; Is any thing so perfectly common among men , as to have foolish opinions ? Athanasius . Most evident it is , that there is no better Criterion , or truer and safer rule , whereby to examine and confirm the truth of any thing belonging to Men in the General , than the General Consent of Mankind concerning it . For , as when it is enquired , what belongs to jus Animale ( vulgarly called jus Naturale ) we perpend the matter by the observation of such things , as are common to all Animals : Even so , when we enquire , what is jus Humanum , or what by special right doth belong to Men , as Men , we must direct our judgement , by what is allowed of by all Men. And doubtlesse this is to be accounted Lex Naturae , the Law of Nature , or vox Naturae , the voice of Nature ; or else there is none at all . And , as to Cicero's smart saying ; I confesse , nothing is more common with the multitude , than to be deluded with false opinions : But that is only in things Arbitrary , and such whereof Nature hath implanted no setled Sense and Notion in their Minds . And , in such things , erroneous conceipts many times spread themselves abroad , and diffuse by what subtle contagion I know not ; especially when they have been first taken up upon presumption of Authority , Antiquity , Utility and the like inducements to belief : but it is observable , that such fallacies , as they had no ground in Nature , so by degrees , in processe of i me , they decay insensibly , and at length come ttobe totally obliterated and forgotten . Of which sort , was that of the usefulnesse of Auspices , and other waies of Divination , against which the Orator pleaded ; all which are long since laid aside , and laughed at by every one . But , as for such things , of which Nature her self hath implanted a certain Knowledge in our Minds ; it is not vulgar for men to be mistaken in them : unlesse you will affirm that this natural Maxim , That every Father ought to take care of his Children ; or this , That every man is bound to endeavour his own preservation , and the like coessential Notions , are vulgar mistakes . And of this sort , certainly , is the opinion of the Soul's Immortality , as may be deduced from hence , that it seems to have been connate to the first man ; and confirmed from the great antiquity of the opinion of Hell ; and from hence , that it is so far from decaying , by length of time , that on the contrary it growes every day more strong and lively . Lucretius . This Tenent of the Soul's Immortality which you averr to be as ancient as Humanity itself , and implanted by Naturein the Mind of every man , may have been , for ought we know , the politique invention of the First Law-makers : who , observing that the punishments denounced upon capital Delinquents in this life were not sufficient to deterre them from committing enormities destructive to the common right and safety of Societies ; prudently perswaded men that their Souls were not obnoxious to dissolution together with their bodies , but Immortal , and so capable of torment , after death , for their evil deeds ; and of Felicity , by way of reward for their good . Than which , there could be no more powerfull consideration to coerce men , who were not sensible of the present benefits of Virtue : it being in all times true , that such audacious Malefactors , as are not moved by the whole arme of the Civil Magistrate , will yet tremble at the finger of Divinity . And this opinion could not but take so much the deeper root in mens breasts , by how much the more agreeable it is to that desire and love of life , which is naturall to us all : so that being the most gratefull and correspondent to our nature , the promise of Eternal existence in our better part , found a general belief ; and , by common tradition , came at length to be in a manner naturalized . But , how it is otherwise Natural , I profess , I doe not yet comprehend . Athanasius . That this perswasion of the Soul's Eternity , was the invention of the primitive Legislators , the better to keep men in obedience to their Lawes ; hath , I confess , been often said , but never proved : and what the first supposers thereof have told us , of the manner of mens being convened into common societies , after they had long lived abroad in the fields , and upon mutuall spoyles , rapine and slaughter , after the manner of wild Beasts ; is altogether fabulous and unreasonable . Whereas , on the contrary , we are able to prove , by those memorials that remain to us , of the First Law-makers we read of in History ; that they found this Tenent of the Soul's Immortality setled and radicated in the hearts of the people , from the very beginning of Mankind . I conceive it probable enough , that the wisdom of these Law-makers might teach them to make use of this perswasion , in order to their more facile governing and restraining the vulgar , otherwise more prone to all kind of exorbitancy and violence ; and it was a piece of eminent prudence in them so to doe : but I have no reason , to allow , that therefore it is a meer politique Fiction ; unless you think it lawfull to conclude , that because an Husbandman doth turn the streams of a river upon his grounds , to make them the more fruitfull , therefore the river is only a Fiction . Again , though I concede , that the belief of Immortality is very conformable and gratefull to our Nature , which by instinct inclineth us to abhorr Dissolution : yet this conformity and gratefullness doth not arise to us from hence , that Immortality is offered to us as undue by Nature ( as Poets report of Chiron the great Chirurgeon , who refused Immortality , when proffered him by the Gods : and of Prometheus , who exclamed against Iupiter , for exempting him from death ) but , on the contrary , because it is Natural , and that we have the assurance of it engraven on our very essence ; and therefore it can be no Fiction , as you would seem to imagine . Lucretius . It is possible ( and experience saith , frequent ) that an Opinion may be General , and possesse the minds of all men , for many ages together without dispute ; which yet at length may be discovered to be false and absurd , and the quite contrary succeed into the room thereof : as may be exemplified in that of the Antipodes , and the Circumvolution of the Earth ; both which till of late years were held wholly unreasonable and Phantasticall . And perhaps this of the Soul's Eternity may have the same fate . Athanasius . If there be any Opinions , which all men at some time maintain ; we are to judge of the Verity or Falsity of them , by this general rule . If they be confirmed by the judgement of all ages ; and that the Mind find it self carried and inclined to them , by secret assent and complacency , as to things generally concerning every man alike : Then , without doubt , those Opinions are sound , natural and congenial to man. But , if otherwise there be a tacite Reluctancy in the Mind against the admission of them ; and that their importance or concernment is not equally diffusive to all men : they are false , arbitrary , and such as may be embraced , or rejected indifferently ; for of themselves , they neither promove , nor impede Mans felicity ( unlesse only by accident , or as their speculation may be pleasant , for the time ) and it little relateth to mans happinesse , whether there be Antipodes or not , for we in our Hemisphere can live without commerce with them ; or whether the Earth , or Sun be moved since all the Apparences are the same , either way . But , as for the Opinion of the Soul 's surviving the body ; it is not indifferent , wheit be true or not : Nor is Man destitute of a Natural propension to believe it , when it relateth to his Supreme and everlasting Felicity . Isodicastes . From the Antiquity , Universality , and Perpetuity of any Opinion , I think we may safely conclude upon the Verity of it . From the Antiquity of it ; because , according to that Rule , Idem esse verum , quodcunque primum ; id adulterinum , quodcunque posterius , that which is the most antient , is likely to be the most true , in respect of the purity and sincerity of mens Minds in the Primitive Age of the World , their Understandings being then more clear & perspicacious , and their judgements lesse perverted by irregular Affections and temporal Interest . From the Universality , because it seems inconsistent with the Goodnesse of God , to have made us of a Nature so subject to error , as that All Mankind should be deluded . From the Perpetuity , because , as Cicero worthily noteth , Opinionum commenta delet dies , Naturae judicia confirmat , Time destroyeth all those fancies , which have no other ground , but only human opinion ; but it strengthneth all those judgements , which are founded upon Truth and pure natural Reason . And therefore , this Notion of the Souls Immortality , being so Ancient , as that it seems to have entered into the World together with the First Man , and what Plutarch ( out of Sophocles ) saith of the Antiquity of Religious principles , Non nunc enim , neque heri sunt ista prodita , Semper valuere , nec , quando inierint , liquet ; may be most aptly accommodated thereunto : and so Universal , as that the apprehension of a Deity ( without which no man ever lived , for , as Tully remarketh , Multi quidem de Diis prava sentiunt , omnes tamen esse vim & Naturam Divinam arbitrantur ) seems not to have been more Common : And lastly so Perpetual , as that Time doth rather confirm , that decay it ; I must judge it , to be a sound and proleptical truth , especially when I reflect also upon that other Character Athanasius hath given of the verity and naturalnesse of a General Tenent , viz. that the concernment of it , is equally diffusive to all men . And did I not know , Lucretius , that your present businesse is Contradiction ; I should a little wonder , how you could alleage that so in-considerable an Objection , of the opinion of the Soul's Immortality being a Fiction of the First Law-makers . For , you well understand from what incredible Authority that impious Whimsy was derived , even from Euripides the Poet ; who suborning the Person of Sisyphus , in his Tragedy , to speak such Atheistical conceipts , as otherwise he durst not vent , introduceth him telling this formal tale . That the life of men in old time , was salvage and barbarous , like that of Wild Beasts ; the stronger , by violence oppressing the weaker , untill at last , men were necessitated to devise certain severe Laws , for the suppressing of mutual slaughter , and other acts of injustice . But , when they found ( after long experience ) that all those Laws were ineffectual to the coercing men from enormities and outrages ; because they could take hold of only open and publick offences , and reached not to close and secret ones : There arose up among them a certain subtle and politique Governour , who invented a mean to provide against that mischief also , and to prevent clandestine and secret violations of common Right and Justice , as well as manifest and notorious . And that was , by insinuating into the peoples heads , Quod sit perenni vita vigens aliquis Deus , Qui cernat ista , & audiat , atque intelligat , &c. that there was an Immortal Power , or Deity above them , who took notice of all their most secret actions , and designes , and would most severely punish all injustice , in another life , which was to succeed this , and to continue eternally . The like to which is very solemnly told by Cicero , in the person of Cotta , in his first Book de Natura Deorum ; and also by Seneca , in his second Book of Natural Questions : But , how contrary to Reason , as well as to the authenticall Monuments ( both Divine and Human ) of Ancient times , and the first foundation of Republicks , or Societies ; is too well known , even to your self , Lucretius , to need my further insisting thereupon . However , this praise is due to you , that you have omitted nothing , that might impugne Athanasius his Argument of the Soul's Eternity , desumed from the Universal belief of it by men of all Nations , and in all Ages . Athanasius . Having received not only your Approbation ▪ Noble Isodicastes , but your Assistance also , in this my First Moral Argument ; I need no other other encouragement to proceed to the Second ; which ariseth from Mans inbred , or rather innate , and inseparable Appetite of Immortality . For , there is no man who doth not desire to subsist Eternally ; nay , not those very persons , who seem to impugne and disavow that desire , by a contrary opinion ( as Epicurus and all his Sectators ) could ever ▪ suppress or extinguish it from glowing perpetually in their breast , notwithstanding all their pretences of being free from any such expectation : as may be inferred from hence that they endeavoured to perpetuate their names and memories to all posterity , by their Books and opinions . And , therefore , it is not needfull for us to confirme this Assertion , by the Example of Cleombrotus , and the Disciples of Hegesias , who were so far transported with the force of Plato's and His discourses of the Souls eternal state after death , that they could not forbear to lay violent hands upon themselves , that so they might set their impatient souls at liberty from the wearisom prison of Flesh , and emancipate them into that their more proper and delightfull mansion . All we shall urge , is only this , that There is no man , who thinks himself unconcerned in Futurity . Witness that general ambition all men have , to perpetuate their names in the records of immortal Fame ; some , by the founding and institution of Common-wealths , Sects , Societies , and the prescription of Lawes for the continuation of them ; others , by valiant acts in warre , even to the loss of health , limbs , and life itself ; others , by erecting pyramids , obeliks , Tombs , statues , and other monuments of their greatness and heroical atcheivements ; others , by writing learned and usefull Books , and even such as import the contempt of posthume Glory and fame ; others , by begetting of children , adoption of heirs , publick legacies of piety , and the like : all which are strong and lively testimonies , that this Appetite of surviving their funerals , is implanted in their Minds , by Nature's owne hand , and so impossible ever to be totally eradicated . Now , forasmuch as Nature doth institute nothing in vain ; and that it is unreasonable to conceive , that she would infuse into us a continuall desire of , and providence for , such things in the future , whereof we shall then have no sense : it is more than probable , that our souls shall after death be invested in that state of Immortality , which we so uncessantly aspire unto , and to which we are carried by a secret and insuppressable tendency . To this purpose Cicero , in the first of his Tusculans , hath a remarkable saying , which I shall therefore rehearse , Nescio quomodo inhaereat in mentibus quasi seculorum quoddam augurium , idque in maximis ingeniis altissimisque animis existit maximè , & apparet facillime : quo quidem dempto , quis tam esset amens , qui semper in laboribus & periculis viveret . &c. Lucretius . This Affectation of Immortality , I confess , is very frequent , and almost General ; yet doth it not appear to be so Essential or Natural , as that it may not be vain , and so Nature no waies obliged to provide for its satisfaction . For , we have other Appetites , that seem as Universal , and consequently as Natural as this ; which yet import no necessity of satisfaction , but rather an impossibility thereof . For example , who doth not desire and wish perpetuity of youth , strength , and health ; and to be exempted from the stroke of that common enemy , Death ? and yet 't is well knowne to themselves , that these desires are vain , and such as Nature hath ordained an absolute impossibility of their satisfaction . Wherefore , you cannot argue a necessity , nay not a probability of the Soul 's being Immortal , from her affectation of Immortality . Athanasius . But , pray , observe the Disparity ; and let the institution of Nature itself be your rule , in discerning , what Appetite is vain , and what capable of satisfaction . Some Appetites there are , and those almost General too , which yet are not inserted into us originally by Nature , but arise from the presumption of some profit , or pleasure : such is the desire of being able to flie in the aire like Birds , which every man hath ; for , who would not carry himselfe with all possible expedition to the place whither he intends to goe ? yet , because Nature hath not furnished man with wings to that purpose , it is manifest , she did not implant that desire in our Minds , and so is not bound to satisfy the same . Other Appetites there are , which no prejudicate opinion , or presumed cogitation , but Nature herself hath created together with us ; and at the same time ordained means for our attaining to the fruition of them : such is our Appetite of constant Health and Indolency , which as Nature hath implanted , so doth she endeavour to satisfy , and would really satisfy , if it were not for our owne Intemperance and other Accidents , that frustrate those her endeavours . Now of the Former sort , are those Appetites of wealth , power , eternal youth , exemption from death , and the like : of the Latter sort , is that of the immortal state of the Soul. For , there being a twofold Immortality , at which we aime , the one of the Species or Kind , the other of the Individual ; and we being certain that Nature hath provided for the satisfaction of the First , by the Faculty of Generation : why should we not conclude , that she hath likewise provided for the satisfaction of the other , by giving our ▪ Minds , by which we are what we are , an inexsoluble or incorporeal substance ? Lucretius . But , doe we not all abhorre Death ? Athanasius . Yes , generally we doe . Lucretius . Is that Abhorrence Natural , or not ? Athanasius . Suppose it to be Natural ; what would you inferr ? Lucretius . Why then , certainly , Nature hath instituted two Affections in us , the one point blank repugnant to the other ; For how can it consist with our desire and hope of Immortality , that we should so much fear and abhor Death , which must put us in possession of it ? Athanasius . The fear of Death , Lucretius , and the desire of Immortality , seem to be rather one and the same natural Affection , than two contrary ones ; for , to desire Eternal subsistence , is to covet Immortality . But , our fear of Death ariseth only from our being more concerned in , or moved by things present , than by things to come . Which , indeed , is the main reason , why men generally offend not only in the inordinate love of this life , but in most other things appertaining to the same . Thus , meeting with occasions of intemperance , or incontinence ; we weigh not the losse of our health , abbreviation of life , and other evills consequent thereupon , because our thoughts are wholly intent upon the present pleasure that offers it self to our sense : So that , as this our pursuit of sensual and hurtful pleasures , doth not hinder the desire of health and long life from being Natural to us ; so doth not our desire of perpetuity in this life , hinder our desire of a better life after this , from being likewise natural . Lucretius . The Induction you have here made , seems to prove no more than this , that men generally affect posthume Fame , or Glory ; which may indeed be accounted a kind of life in death , according to that of Ovid , Ore legar populi , perque omnia secula famâ , Si quid habent veri vatum presagia , vivam . But , this is far from amounting to a real Immortality . Athanasius . It is enough , if my Induction declare , in the General , that in this life , we have a presension of some certain future state after death , in which we shall have some sense of what we have been in this life , and that accompanied with pleasure or pain . For , as Hunger is an Appetite , not of this or that particular dish of meat , but only of meat in the General ; so though our opinion determine that general appetite to some one particular dish before all others , which yet may be in it self lesse gratefull and wholsom ; yet that is evidence enough that we have an appetite to meat in the general , and that our affecting a deceiptful dish , doth not exclude our capacity of affecting a wholsome and more nutritive dish . In like manner , it is apparent , we have an Appetite of Immortality in the General , or without determination to this or that particular state or condition therein . And though the mind perchance may pitch upon Immortal Fame , as the most grateful means to satisfie that appetite , which in it self is a meer vanity and deceiptful : yet that is sufficient to testifie , that we have radicated in our Mind an Appetite of Immortality in the General , and such a one as is true and germane . Whence , that you may not urge the examples of Epicurus and others , who believing the Souls of men to be Mortal , did yet long labour in composing Books , that might commend them to posterity after their death ; I say , that these men did indirectly , and upon consequence give testimony of the true Immortality , in regard they were carried on , by the secret impulse of nature , to affect that vain and false one of Glory or Renown . For , Nature hath not implanted in us any desire of things vain ; but it is our own folly and indiscretion , which permitting our mind to be too deeply infected with things of this life ; averteth our studies and endeavours from the true and genuine scope of nature , to erroneous hopes , and delusive expectations . And now , I hope , you have not much left to say against this Argument of the Souls Immortality , from our Appetite thereof . Isodicastes . Whether Lucretius be convinced of the force of this Reason , or not ; it appears by his silence , that he intends no longer to oppose it , but is willing you should think you have made him your proselyte , and so proceed to your last Moral consideration that remains . Athanasius . That may be desumed from the Necessity of Divine Iustice ; for , as certain as God is , so certain is it , that He is just : and since it doth evidently consist with the method of Gods justice , that it should be well with Good men , and ill with evil men ; and we do not observe Good and Evil to be accordingly distributed in this life , but rather the contrary ; Good men generally being even overwhelmed with afflictions , and wicked men as generally swimming in pleasures : It follows , that there must be another life , wherein Virtue is to receive its reward , and Vice its punishment . And , if it were otherwise , the gates of Piety would be shut up , and those of Impiety opened ; all Religion be subverted , all honesty destroyed , and all Human Society dissolved . Lucretius . If this Reason be conclusive , as to Men , methinks , it should be no lesse conclusive concerning Beasts also . For , why should the harmlesse and patient sheep be worried by the noxious and bloody Wolf ? Or the innocent Dove become a prey to the greedy Falcon ? and no state remain after death , for the reward of the sufferings of the one , and punishment of the cruelty of the other ? How can this consist , I pray , with the method of Divine Justice : All Animals being the Creatures of God , as well as Men ; and ( for ought we know ) as much the subjects of his Providence and Justice . Athanasius . Forasmuch as of all Animals , Men only are capable of knowing , revering , worshiping and serving God ; it is manifest , that They are as the principal care of his Providence , so the only Object of his Justice . And though this be sufficient , yet I shall add two other Reasons of weight and evidence enough to exclude the pretence of Brutes to a concernment in justice divine . The one is , that among men in Societies , there is a mutual Communion , such as cannot be instituted among Beasts , in regard they want reason to understand the benefit of such Communion : And , that by this common compact , men are obliged to do good and not harm each to other , living in that communion ; but Beasts are not reciprocally obliged by any compact , and so are incapable of doing or suffering injury ( rightly so called ) one from another . And , therefore , the actions of Men one towards another , belong to the cognizance of Gods special Providence ; but not the actions of Beasts . The other is , that it is Natures own institution , that some Brute Animals should be Carnivorous , some feed upon Herbs , some upon fruits , &c. and so such as are Carnivorous must destroy other weaker Animals , or else they cannot subsist . To these , if you please , you may add also a third consideration , which is , that Man hath sentiments of a state after death , and desires to be happy in that state , and seems convulst at the fear of the contrary : But , Beasts have no such thoughts , no such desires , no such fear ; so that it is no wonder , that the provident Justice of God doth distribute Rewards and punishments to Men , and to no other of his Creatures . Lucretius . As to this last Consideration ; is it not possible , that Men , casting about for various devices and imaginations to palliate and sweeten the sowrenesse of their Miseries , in this life , may have both invented this comfortable opinion of a state of future Immortality ; and introduced the supposition of this provident justice of God , relating only to mens actions , on purpose to support it : when other Animals , being destitute of the like use of reason , could have no such conceipt ? Athanasius . Impossible ; because the opinion of Immortality was before any sense of Misery , and elder than all Memory ; and as it came into mens minds , at first , upon more weighty considerations , than any temporal concernment : so must it have been , as soon as there were men to entertain it . Wherefore , as it is true , that men who live in misery , do more frequently fix their thoughts upon Immortality , than those who live in happinesse : So is it equally true , that not only miserable , but many of the most prosperous and flourishing persons in the World , do neverthelesse contemn the delights and pleasures of this transitory and umbratil life , and account it the only satisfactory and comfortable entertainment of their thoughts , to be constantly meditating upon that state of Immortality , which shall receive them , when all the pageant pleasures of the present life shall be ▪ vanished away and come to not-hing . Lucretius . But , is not Virtue , on one side , a sufficient recompence to it self ? and Vice , on the other , a sufficient punishment to it self ? and such , than which no Executioner can inflict a more grievous and horrid ? What need , therefore , of any such state to come , untill which the reward of Virtue , and punishment of Vice , is imagined to be deferred ? Athanasius . That virtue is not a sufficient recompence to itself , may be naturally collected from hence ; that all virtuous persons have an eye of Affection constantly levelled at somewhat beyond it . For , though the Stoicks affected this high-straind expression of the exceeding amiableness of virtue ; yet could they never perswade themselves , or others , but that Glory and Honour , at least , were lookt upon , as the Consequents of Virtue : nor can it be affirmed , that Glory doth alwayes seek out and court virtue , of its owne accord ; forasmuch as really those persons were ever the most covetuous of Glory , who have pretended the most to decline and avoid it . Yea , the most Heroical among the Ancients seem to have proposed Glory , and not barely Virtue itself , as the guerdon of their most difficult enterprises and atcheivements ; which Cicero fully expresseth ( pro Milone ) in these elegant words : Ex omnibus praemiis virtutis , amplissimum est praemium Gloria , quae vitae brevitatem posteritatis memoriâ consolatur ; & ( pro Arch. ) nullam virtus aliam mercedem laborum , periculorumque desiderat , praeter hanc Laudis & Gloriae ; quâ detractâ , quid est in hoc tam exiguo vitae curriculo , & tam brevi , quod tantis nos in laboribus exerceamus ? I add , that according to this drie and uncomfortable lesson of the Stoicks , a Prince would be unjust to expect honour from his subjects , for his prudent and happy government ; a souldier unreasonable , in hoping for any recompence for his valour and wounds ; an Artist worthy of blame in demanding a valuable price for an excellent piece of work ; a Physician unconscionable , in receiving a fee for a Cure , and the like : For if virtue , or the doing of a good action be a competent reward to its self ; it must be ( as I say ) manifest injustice to require or receive any other . The same likewise may be said of Vice. For , no man , that doth an ill action , fears only least that ill should torment him : but fears somthing beyond it , and consequent upon it , as infamy , imprisonment , torture and death . And these , truly , are more congruous punishments for vice , than vice itself ; otherwise all Lawes would be unjust , that inflict them . We may conclude , therefore , that since virtue doth frequently want its due reward , in this life ; and vice as frequently goe without its due punishment : it followes , that after death , there is to succeed a certain immortal state , in which both shall receive their due . Lucretius . Granting all this to be necessary , in respect of Justice Divine ; yet I can see no necessity , why the Rewards of the Virtuous , and Punishment of the Vicious , should be Eternal . For , no Human action , though highly good and commendable , can yet be so meritorious , as to deserve an Eternal recompence from God : as , on the other side , no action , though superlatively criminal and detestable , can yet be so bad , as to require an everlasting punishment ; because neither the one , nor the other is any thing but natural , transitory , and definite , and so can hold no proportion to what is infinite . Athanasius . Though a Good action , and so Virtue and Honesty , considered Physically , be but a slender thing ; yet , because the worth or Merit of it is to be estimated according to the rule of Morality , it comes to be of such excellency , as that the Doer thereof , freely and upon election endeavouring to compose and regulate himself , by the best rules prescribed , and so ennobling his actions with divine perfection , as much as the frailty of his nature will permit ; may in justice hope for a reward proportionable i. e. an Eminent , and Divine one , such to which the Soul , by its inherent appetite and tendency , doth continually aspire . And this reward cannot be other but Everlasting ; because , if it were only Temporal and Finite , it could not deserve the name of a reward , insomuch as the Fear of being once deprived of it again , though after many myriads of years , would destroy the pleasure of enjoying it . And the like may be said of the perpetuity of Punishments due to vicious persons so that there is no such disproportion as you surmise . And here , if you please , let us set bounds to our Debate concerning the Immortality of that noble Essence , the Human Soul. For having run over the principal Physical Arguments , that arise from the Operations of the Soul , aswell in Volition , as Intellection , and also from the Nature and Universality of her Objects ; and added thereunto other Moral Considerations , of high importance , in order to the Conviction of this most comfortable and sacred Truth , whose Assertion , in obedience to your yesterdayes commands , I assumed upon myself : I find the clue of all my Notions and Collections concerning this sublime subject , now wholly unravelled . Nor , after my solution of all your Scruples and Objections , doth any thing remain for me longer to exercise your patience withall , but only that I beg of you both your forgiveness , in that I have thus long abused it already ; and that I render my thanks to you Lucretius , for the advantage you were pleas'd to give me , by your most ingenious and learned Opposition , as you saw occasion , in the process of my Discourses ; and to you , Isodicastes , for your most impartial and judicious turning the scales on the side of truth , as often as Lucretius thought , or seemed to think them ▪ equilibrated betwixt his reasons and mine . Isodicastes . If I have been so happy , Athanasius , as to judge according to truth ; I assure you , it was the clearness of your Reasonings alone , that gave me light so to do : and therefore , instead of that Forgiveness of your exercise of my patience , ( as you call it ) which your modesty makes you require of me ; I must return you infinite thanks , for your so fully compensating my patience and attention with such satisfaction , as greater ought not to be expected , concerning an argument of so much abstrusity and difficulty , as this whereupon you have discoursed . And for Lucretius , I think it now time for him , to lay aside his disguise of a Contrary opinion which he put on only to experiment the strength of your Allegations ; for I must declare , that in my judgement ( which yet I doe not take to be definitive ) he hath been too weak for you , in all the passages of this contest ; yet rather from the weakness of the Cause he undertook , than from any want of skill in himself to manage it to the utmost of its merit . Lucretius . We have yet an hour good , before supper time ; and you were both pleased to devote this whole Evening to this particular Divertisement : And therefore , if Athanasius be not tired with speaking , nor you , Isodicastes , with hearing ; let me beseech you to continue your places a little longer , while I propose some certain Objections , long since made by Epicurus and some of my Fellow-Disciples , against the Immortality of Mans Soul. For , until Athanasius hath perfectly refuted them also ; if he thinks to Triumph , it will be before he hath compleated his Victory . Athanasius . You are a politick Enemy , Lucretius , it seems : like experienced Generals , you place your chiefest strength in a Reserve . But , come , draw up the remainder of your forces ; I doubt not of as good successe in the second charge , as I have had in the first . Isodicastes . But , pray , Gentlemen , let me conjure you both , not to extend your Contract , beyond eight a clock ; for , at that hour , I have appointed my Cook to furnish us with a short repast ; and my Watch saith , it is almost seven already . Lucretius . Lesse than an hour will conclude our quarrel , I promise you , Isodicastes : but lest we lose time in preparatory circumstances , I immediately addresse to the proposal of my intended Objections , which have alwaies hitherto been accounted of of moment . The First is this , that the Soul is generated , grows up to maturity , then again declines , grows old , and at length wholly decaies , together with the body : So that , if that Axiome be true , quitquid natum est , possit interire , the Soul being produced , must be subject to dissolution . Athanasius . This Argument hath two parts ; the one supposing , that the Soul is Generated : The other , that it grows old and languid , and decaies , as the body doth ; and therefore I shall divide my Answer accordingly . To the First part I reply , that that Axiome , quicquid natum est , possit interire , is true indeed concerning all things Corporeal and Compound ; but not concerning things Incorporeal and Simple , such as I have already demonstrated the Soul to be : so that the Production of the Soul doth not necessitate her Dissolubility . That Incorporeal Natures are incapable of destruction , I have formerly deduced from their want of parts into which they might be dissolved : all exsolubility consisting wholly in Partibility . And , that Simple Natures are likewise incorruptible , is manifest even from hence , that the General and First Matter , though Corporeal and produced from nothing by God at first , doth persevere the very same for ever . So that Dissolubility belonging neither to Incorporiety , nor Simplicity ; it is purely consequent , that the Soul , which is an essence Incorporeal and Simple , cannot be obnoxious to Dissolution . And as to the Production of it , though it be not easie for us ( especially at the first thought ) to conceive how an Incorporeal can be produced , without perfect creation , from which we have good cause to believe that God long since desisted ; yet that the Soul is produced , we have the perswasion of sundry good reasons : As if it were improduct , or eternal à parte ante , it would and must be so , either as Coherent by it self , and a substance sejoyned or severed from all other things ; or as a part adhaerent to another , and deduced from that other , when it is induced into the body . But , that it is not a substance cohaerent per se & ab aeterno , may be inferred from hence , that there is remaining in us no memory of any such eternal state ; that the University of things would want beginning , and so could have neither Author , nor Governour , which is monstrous and absurd , as I have demonstrated in my Book against Atheism ; that if Men had been from all Eternity , they must have been Infinite , and so either there must have been an infinite multitude of Souls , before all excogitable time , or the same numerical Souls must have , by transmigration , been inservient to , or informed successively , not only many , but infinite persons ; when yet it is repugnant , that there should be an infinite number ( lest therein should be admitted as many Binaries , Denaries , Millenaries , &c. as Unities : and so somthing be allowed more infinite than an infinite , which is absurd ) And that our Souls were formerly in other men , who lived before us , we have no monument , no record , but those Fables of Pythagoras , Empedocles , and the like . And , that it is not a Particle desumed from another incorporeal , is demonstrable from hence , that an Incorporeal is uncapable of division into parts : Which reason is so plain and obvious , that I cannot but wonder that Plato , having asserted God to be a Mind Divine and Incorporeal , should neverthelesse contradict himself in affirming , that Mans Soul was a Particle taken from the substance of God himself ; or how he could imagine the Soul to be Inexsoluble , which he thought a part of an exsoluble nature . Wherefore , seeing the Soul cannot possibly be Improduct , either of these two waies ( and certainly there can be no other ) it must of necessity be Product , whatsoever the Manner of its Production be . And here I might ( as I suppose you expect I should ) take occasion to engulph my self in that bottomlesse Sea of Difficulties , concerning the Original and Extraduction of Mans Soul ; but being digressive from my present Theme , and such whereof I am not yet able to give any other account , than what you have met with , in Sennertus , Harvey , and other modern Physicians , who have more expresly addicted themselves to enquire into the mysteries of Generation ; I think it prudence to wave the opportunity . Only thus much I may adventure to say , and it is pertinent to my businesse in hand , that the Production of the Soul cannot be from Matter , because she is her self Immaterial ; nor from an Incorporeal , by way of desumption or partition , because Incorporiety and Divisibility are incompatible : So that they are not altogether destitute of reason , who conceive that it is produced ex Nihilo , and by such a Cause , whose power is immense , and superior to all the Energy of of Nature , which must be God , the Author of Nature . But , however it is plain , that though it hath its beginning and origine together with the body ; yet being Incorporeal , it is not capable of perishing together with it , as you would conclude . And thus much for the First part of your Argument . As for the Remainder of it ; to that Aristotle hath long since provided an Answer to my hand , in the fourth Chapter of his first Book de Anima , which is a Text very apposite , and memorable ( however it either import a Contradiction in the Author himself , or seem capable of their interpretation , who alleage him as a defendant of the Mortality of the Soul ) and therefore I shall recite it . Innasci autem Intellectus videtur , & substantia quaedam esse , nec corrumpi ; nam si corrumperetur quidem , id maximè fieret ab hebetatione illa , quae in senectute contingit : nunc autem res perinde fit , ac in ipsismet sensuum instrumentis . Si enim Senex oculum juvenilem reciperet , non secus ac ipse juvenis videret . Unde & senectus non ex eo est , quod quidquam passa Anima sit ; sed quod simile aliquid , ac in ebrietate morbisque eveniat : ipsaque intelligendi & contemplandi functio propter aliquid aliud interius corruptum marcescit , cum ipsum interim , cujus est , passionis expers maneat . Which words considered , we have good reason to afffirm , that all that change , which the Epicurean would have to be in the Rational Soul , or Mind , during the growth of the body in youth , and decay of it in old age ; doth not proceed from any mutation in the Soul it self , but in some other interior thing distinct from it , as the Imagination , or Organ of the Common Sense , the Brain , which being well or ill affected , the Soul it self suffereth no whit at all , but only the Functions of it flourish or decay accordingly . For , since the Intellect is enshrined in the body , for only this end , that it might collect the Knowledge of things , by the intercession of the Phansy , into which the images of things are conveyed through the Senses ; and that in order to its reasoning concerning them , it might receive hints from those images , which residing in the Phansy , are therefore ( as we have said ) called Phantasms : hence is it , that the Soul , in the beginning of its age , or during Childhood , doth reason but little , because it hath then but few images or phantasms in store , from which it might take occasion of composing discourses : but , in processe of time , it comes to ratiocinate more copiously and perfectly , as having then both more , and more clear and ordinate Phantasms ; and lastly in decrepite old age , it again falls to reason but little and brokenly , because , by reason of the drinesse of the brain , the Phantasms are then either wholly , or for the most part obliterated , and those few that remain , are represented both obscurely and perturbedly . So that ( as Aristotle saith ) if it were possible to give an old man a young Eye , and a young Imagination ; his Soul would soon declare , by exquisite vision , and quick reasoning , that it was not she , that had grown old , but her Organs ; and that she is capable of no more change from the impairment of the body by old age , than is usually observed to arise ( pro tempore ) from a fit of drunkennesse , or some disease of the brain . For , as when the malignity of the Spirits of Wine is overcome by sleep , and dispelled by sweat ; or the violence of a disease possessing the brain , or seat of reason , is abated ; a man doth no longer suffer a delirium , but returns to the clear use of his reasoning Faculty , as before his head was disordered : So , if the Brain and Phansy were youthfully affected in an old man , the Soul would no longer seem to doat , but reason as perfectly as ever before in the vigour and flourishing state of youth . From whence it is evident , that whatever of change men have thought to be in the Soul , by reason of that great decay generally attending old age ; is not really in the Soul , but only in the Imagination , and the Organ thereof , which is not so well disposed , as in the vigour of life . And this might be conveniently explained by the similitude of a Scribe , who cannot write so smooth and fine a hand , with an old and blunted pen , as with a new and sharp one : But the thing is of it self too clear , to need the illustration of Comparisons . And this may suffice to dissolve your mighty Argument objected . Lucretius . My SECOND Argument is desumed from hence , that the Soul is not only distempered and misaffected with diseases of her owne , but infected and touch't also by those of the body : and what is capable of disease or misaffection , either protopathically , or sympathically , is doubtless capable of dissolution . This you may remember , was long since urged by Panaetius of Epicurus sect ; for , Cicero ( primo Tuscul. ) speaking of him , saith ; alteram autem rationem affert , nihil esse quod dole at , quin id aegrum esse quoque possit : quod autem in morbum cadat , id etiam interiturum ; dolere autem Animos , ergo etiam interire . Athanasius . As for such Diseases of the body , which you suppose extend to the discomposure of the Soul , by way of sympathy ; as particulary the Phrensy , Madnesse , Hypochondriacall Melancholy , the Lethargy , Hydrophobia , and others which work upon the brain , and perturb the Animal Faculties : the same Answer will serve to exempt the Soul from suffering any detriment from them , which I just now alleaged against her decay in old age . For , though in truth the Mind cannot exercise its proper functions duely and rightly , in fits of Delirium , the Phrensy , and the like ; nor at all in Lethargies , and Apoplexies : yet this ought not to be ascribed to any depravation or change in the substance of the Mind itself , but only to an indisposition in the Phansy and Animal Organs . And , as for Passions of Grief , Fear , Remorse &c. which are reputed the proper Diseases of the Mind ; in the first place , we may derive our Answer concerning them , from the place of Aristotle newly cited . For , he there subjoyns , Amores , odium , & alia , passiones esse non intellectûs , sed corporis ipsum habentis ; esse enim fortè Intellectum aliquid divinum & passionis expers . By which , his meaning is , that the proper Function of the Intellect , is to understand and reason ( though he was pleased to reckon Cogitation among the Passions ) and that all Passions belong to the Appetite either Concupiscible or Irascible , which is a Corporeal Faculty . For , though Passion be posterior to Cognition , and dependent thereupon ; so that it may seem to be received in the subject , to which Cognition doth belong , that is to the Mind : nevertheless , because the Mind , while resident in the body , doth make use of corporeal Images pre-admitted into the Imagination ; and in the mean while the Phansy , in imagining what things are , doth co-operate together with the Mind , and the motion of the Corporeal or Sensitive Faculty followeth after the perception of objects by the Phansy ; thence it comes , that the whole Commotion , or Passion doth belong to the Appetite and Body , the Mind all that while remain free and unmoved , after the same manner , as a Master and servant travelling together , the servant carries the burden , and the Master goes light and free , and unconcerned in the weight and trouble thereof . But , forasmuch as we must admit a certain Appetite properly competent to the Soul itself , viz. the Rational Appetite ( from the name of its action , usually denominated the Will ) by which we find ourselves secretly inclined and carried towards things Honest and Divine , and which ought to remain in the Soul even after death , since it must then be sensible either of pleasure in the state of felicity , or of pain in the state of misery : therefore , I confess , we cannot deny but there are some certain Motions in the Soul itself , which in respect of the analogy they seem to hold to those of the sensual or Corporeal Appetite , and that we cannot otherwise express them , may well enough be called Passions , yet these are not to be conceived to arise from any dilatation , compression , solution of continuity , and the like violent motions , that might adferr any harme or detriment to the substance of the Soul. Nor , indeed , ought this to seem strange or difficult , in a thing that is Incorporeal ; since even among Corporeals , we observe some , that have a substance unalterable , and so inconsumable , by the most violent motions in Nature , as Gold , Amianthus , and the like ; and that Aristotle makes the substance of Heavenly bodies , such as that it cannot be altered , heated , or dissolved by the heat of the Sun , as all sublunary bodies are . Lucretius . What think you then , Athanasius , of Drunkeness , wherein both the Rational Faculty is highly perturbed , and the Motive as much enfeebled : neither of which could be , if the Soul did not suffer from the violence of the wine ; and what is capable of suffering such damage from external causes , cannot be incapable of totall dissolution from the same , in case their force and activity become more intense . Therefore the soul is Mortal . Athanasius . Why , truly , I think this Argument as light and trivial as your former , and that the same solution will serve to both . For , it is not the Mind , which is overwhelmed with the deluge of Wine , but the brain and seat or instrument of the Phansy , whose images being beclouded and confused by the fumes or spirits of the wine , brought thither by the arteries ; it is impossible the Mind should make use of them with that clearness and distinction , as when they were pure and in order . And , as for that general weakness , which remaines for a while after the drunken fit is over , in all the members of the body ; this is not to be referred to the Mind neither , but to the Motive-Faculty , whose instruments , and principally the Nerves , are then misaffected , and in a manner relaxed , so as they become indisposed to the regiment of the Mind . The best Lutenist in the world , you know , cannot play a tune upon a Lute , whose strings are relaxed by moisture , or otherwise altered from their requisite temper : and yet his skill in musick never a whit the less : why then should you conceive , that the soul should be able to conserve the harmony of voluntary motions in the sinewes , muscles , and members of the body , when the requisite tenour of those her instruments is depraved , by the stupefactive and relaxing force of the Wine , drank in excesse ? The Members of the body are fit instruments ▪ to execute the motions by the Soul impressed upon them ; but when they are surrounded with the malignant and Narcotical vapours of Wine , and thereby relaxed or oppressed ; they become uncapable of the Souls mandates and government , till those vapours being again discussed , they have recovered their natural temper , and due disposition : and yet the Soul it self all that while remain vigorous and strong , as in Sobriety ; contrary to what this your Objection supposeth . Lucretius . Since you so easily expede your self from the Objections drawn from Diseases , and Ebriety ; I shall urge you with one , that seems more tough and knotty , and that is this . As the Body , so also the Soul or Mind is capable of being cured or rectified by the Art of Medicine ; and if so , there must be either an addition to , or a detraction of somwhat from the Soul ; Physick being a Detraction of what is superfluous , and an addition of what is deficient in mans Nature : And therefore the Soul , being capable of addition and detraction , is capable likewise of destruction . Athanasius . Alas , Lucretius , this is still a branch of the same stock ; and to it I may easily accommodate an Answer , out of what I even now replied to your supposed sympathy of the Soul with the body , in some Diseases . For , albeit , it be most true , that by Hellebor and other Antimelancholical remedies , we Physicians usually cure Madnesse , called Insania , and Amentia , Unsoundness or Distraction of the Mind : Yet is it as true , that this Cure is wrought only upon the brain , or seat of the Imagination , which being purged of that adust and blackish humour , which oppressed it , and altered from the distemper therein caused by the noxious and intoxicating qualities of that humour ; the Mind doth soon return to perform all its proper Functions as regularly and exactly , as at any time before the patient was invaded with that distemper of his brain , and depravation of his Phansy . So that , as when a man go's haulting , because one of his shooes is higher than the other , we may well enough say , that man doth hault , though all the cause of his haulting be only the inequality of his shooes ; and to make him go right again , there needs no more , but to moke his shooes equally high : So , when a man haults , as it were , in his Reason , or fails in the evennesse and decorum of his Discourse ; we may say , that man is Unsound or lame in his Mind , though that unsoundnesse consist only in his Brain or Imagination , and to restore him to the right and becomming manage of his reason , there needs no more , but to rectify his Phansy or Brain , in whose preternatural distemper alone his madnesse doth consist . Again , forasmuch as there are ( as it were some certain diseases peculiar only to the Mind ; at lest in that Metaphorical sense , I have already explained : And that these depravities , commonly called Diseases of the Mind , are capable of cure by , that which is truly the Physick of the Mind , viz. Moral Philosophy : Therefore ought we to conceive , that as the Mind is subject to those its Affections , without any the least detriment or alteration of its substance ; so also may it be cured of them again , without any alteration , addition , or detraction substantial . For , since the Diseases of the Mind are nothing else but certain Evill or vitious Habits , contracted by custom ; and those Habits are nothing else but certain Modes or Manners of its standing affected to such or such objects : Thence comes it , that those Vicious Habits may be sensibly expelled by the induction of contrary Habits , that is of Virtuous ones ; like as a Crooked staffe may be made streight , only by bowing it the contrary way . And though no similitude be exactly congruous in this case , because the Affections of Corporeal Natures hold no correspondence with those of Incorporeals : Yet I choose to make use of this , of the rectification of a crooked staff , because the Crookednesse of the staff doth in some sort represent the Curvity of a Mind misaffected by vicious Habits ; and the Rectitude of a staff , equally represent that Rightnesse of the Mind , which is acknowledged in the Soveraignty and Habit of Virtue . And thus you see , that the Curability of the Mind by the prescripts of Morality , doth not import its dissolubility , as you infer , but rather the Contrary ; for no Moral precept can be applied to , or work upon a Corporeal or Dissoluble essence . Lucretius . From Diseases and Remedies both of Body and Mind , let us have recourse to Death , and see if from the manner of its Tyranny we can raise an Objection or two against your opinion of the Souls being naturally exempted from the same . It is observed , that Men generally die Membratim , limb after limb , death advancing by sensible degrees from the extream parts to the Central and more noble : as if the Soul were not a substance intirely collected into it self , or resident in any one particular place of the body ( as you seem to conceive ) but diffused and scatter'd in several pieces , and so subject to dissipation part after part . Athanasius . The Solution of this is far from being difficult . For , conceiving the soul , as Incorporeal , to be diffused through the whole body , not by Extension of bulk , but by Replication , or ( as the Schools speak ) by position of the same Entity in each part of the body ; it is easy to understand , that the soul , when the members grow cold and mortified , doth then , indeed , instantly cease to be in them : yet is not cut off piece-meal , or diminished , and so sensibly or gradually dissipated , as you suppose ; but the whole of it remains in so much of the body , as yet continues warme , and perfused by the vital Heat , untill ceasing longer to animate the principal seat or throne of its residence ( whether the Brain , or Heart ) it at length bid adieu to the whole , and withdraw itself intire and perfect . What I here say , of the Constitution of the whole Soul in the whole body , and the whole Soul in every part of the body , by way of Replication , or Position of the same Entity in divers places at the same time ; is , I confess , som what obscure , and the imperfection of our knowledge in the affections of Immateriall natures , will hardly permit us to illustrate it : yet , lest you should think it meerly imaginary and sophisticall , I may assert the possibility and reasonableness of it , by a similitude of an intentional species , or visible Image ; Which all men allow so to be diffused through the whole medium or space , as that it is at the same time whole in every part of that space : because in what part soever of the space the eye of the spectatour be posited , the whole Image is still visible therein . Now , if this manner of total diffusion , without fraction or division , be competent to the visible species , which is Corporeal , as I have amply proved in my Physiology , where I treated expresly of the nature of Vision : certainly it must , with more reason , be competent to the Soul , which is Incorporeal . And as for what you observe , of the gradual encroachment of Death , and the sensible mortification of one limb after another , beginning at the feet and other extremities of the body , and creeping along to the heart ; the reason thereof is only this , that the Vital Heat or Flame , being almost either suffocated by putrefaction of the blood ( the only fewel by which it is maintained ) in Diseases , or exhausted by old age , goes out , like a Lamp , by degrees ; ceasing first to enliven or irradiate the parts that are most remote from the Focus , or Heart , and then failing in its conserving influence more and more , untill at length suffering a total extinction in the very Heart ( as it were in the socket ) it leave that also cold and livelesse . So that Death is an extinction only of the Vital Flame , not of the Soul , which as Solomon calls it , is the brightnesse of the Everlasting Light , the unspoited mirrour of the power of God , and the Image of his Goodnesse ; and being but one , she can do all things , and remaining in her self , she maketh all things new . Lucretius . There is another Argument of the Soul's Mortality drawn from hence ; that the Soul is as well a part of the Body , as the Eye , Ear , or the other Sensitive Organs : But these are no sooner separated from the whole , than they become incapable of all Sense ; And therefore the Soul , when once separate from the Body , must likewise become destitute of Sense . Athanasius . The Mind or Soul cannot , without great impropriety , be said to be a part of the Body , as the Eyes and Ears , and other Organs of Sense are ; insomuch as these belong to the Integrality of the Body , and the Soul belongs to the Integrality of the Totum Compositum , and is the Essence or Form of Man : And the Soul , indeed , is in them all , and in all the rest of the Body , but none of them is in the Soul. So that for this reason alone , you ought not to conceive a parity betwixt the Soul and the Instruments of sense , as to their incapacity of Sensation , after their division from the body : being the Soul is the very Principle of Sense , and the Organs can have no Sensation without Her. But , not to insist upon this , I deny the Soul to be a part , as the instruments of sense are ; because , otherwise than those all are , she is Incorporeal , and is to her self , and hath , both in her self , and from her self , the principle of all her actions and energy , which none of those can pretend to . For , she doth not borrow or derive from any other principle her power of Understanding or Reasoning , as the eye doth its Faculty of seeing , & the Ear its faculty of Hearing : but hath it immediately and solely from her self ; and therefore it is no wonder , if the Eye or Ear , once disjoyned from the body , can see , nor hear no longer , &c. but the Soul , when separated from the body , can understand and Reason of and within her self . Lucretius . But , pray Sir , reflect a little upon this ; that the Soul and Body are mutually connected and as it were United by so neer a relation or Necessitude , as that look how the body , being once destitute of the soul , can no longer performe any vital Action : so neither can the soul , when once departed from the body , and mixt with the Aer , performe any action vital , or Animal ; unless you please to give yourself the liberty of imagining , that she doth then animate that part of Aer , in which she doth take up her new lodging , and of that forme herself instruments fit for the execution of her faculties . Athanasius . However the Conjunction of the Soul and body be very intimate ; and the most part of vital and Animal actions belong to the Totum Compositum , or whole Composition : yet from thence it doth not follow , that though the body be incapable of any of those actions , without the Soul ; therefore the in capacity is reciprocall , and the soul can doe no actions , without the body ; because the soul is the Principle of life and activity to the body , but not the contrary . When we behold a souldier fighting with a sword or other weapon , we cannot justly say , that when he is deprived of those weapons , he can no longer strike a blow : because , though his weapons be gone , he hath still his armes and hands , wherewith he can strike , when and as often as he pleaseth . So , when the Soul is every way provided of Members and Organs , as it were with a Panoplie or complete armour , and therewith performs several actions , vital , and Animal ; we cannot say , that if once it devest itself of that armour , and become naked , it can no longer exercise its proper functions of Intellection and Ratiocination ; because , though the instruments , by the mediation whereof she doth commonly understand and reason in the body , be taken away , yet still she retains her Faculties . Nor will it be therefore necessary , that when the soul is departed from the body , and breathed forth into the Aer ( as you , with the vulgar , seem to conceive ) that aer should be thereby Animated : because it is essential to it , then to act , i. e. to understand and reason , without the mediation of any organs at all ; and neither in the aer , nor any other body whatever can the soul either meet with , or create those dispositions , that are requisite to vital information . This Comparison , I have here made betwixt the Soul and a Souldier , is I confess incongruous , as to the point of Information ; yet it holds with conveniency enough , as to the point of Operation ( and your question doth chiefly concerne that ) : the weapons of the souldier are as much dead and useless instruments , without the hands , that are to manage them , as the members of the body are without the Soul ; and as these are Animated by the soul , so are those in a manner , Animated by the hands of the Souldier . And this may be extended also to the solution of that so famous an Objection of Aristotle ( 1. de Anim. 8. ) where he saith ; Esse quidem Animam separabilem , si aliquam functionem habeat , quam sine corpore exerceat , v. c. Intellectionem , quae est ipsius maxime propria , si modo ea quaepiam Imaginatio non sit , aut sine Imaginatione fiat : necesse autem est , eum , qui speculatur , speculari simul aliquod phantasma ; Ergo &c. The soul is to be accounted separable , if it hath any function , which it can exercise without the body , namely Intellection , provided that be not a certain kind of Imagination , or can be performed without Imagination : but experience testifieth , that no man can speculate , or understand , without Phantasms ; and therefore it is not likely , that the soul is a distinct substance and separable from the body . For , the ground hereof is false , viz that there is no Intellection , but what is either direct Imagination , or done by Imagination ; as we have formerly proved ; and that with no sparing hand , so that we need not here repeat it . Nor had I here remembred this Argument of Aristotle , but that this you now urge is very neer of kin thereunto , as to its force and importance , and so put me in mind of it afresh . Lucretius . An Eighth Objection may be made from hence ; that the Soul being once expired , the body soon corrupts , stinks , and resolves to dust : I say , expired , or like a vapour exhaled through the conduits and pores of the body ; and therefore so divided into small portions or particles , as that in that very Egression or Expiration , it must be wholly comparated to Dispersion ; and what is capable of such dispersion , is capable of totall dissolution . Athanasius . You might well , Lucretius , have spared yourself and me the trouble of this impertinent objection , had you thought my Answer to your Fifth , worthy your memory . For , since you could not then deny , that the soul , as Incorporeal , is diffused through the whole body ; and therefore may issue out of it intire and unimpaired , as possessing no place , and in that respect , as capable of passing through the solid and compacted parts , as through the conduits and pores : why should you now resume that gross conception , of the Souls expiring from the body , like a vapour , or exhalation ? And , as for the Putrefaction of the Body , after the Soul hath withdrawn itself from it ( though it nothing at all concern the buisiness in hand ) I say , the Cause thereof is the defect of that vital Agitation of the Heart , Blood , and spirits , by which the Humours most prone to putrifaction , were partly kept from subsiding and fermenting , and partly so extenuated , as to be discussed and expelled . Lucretius . A Ninth from hence ; that in Lipothymies or swooning fits , the vigour of the Soul is so much abated and brought low , as that it would be totally dissolved and extinguished , in case the Causes of those its Failings or Dejections , were yet more violent , as frequently they are , and then they cause sudden death . Athanasius . Here you recur to the Symptomes of bodily Diseases again ; but I wish I could as easily remove them from the body , as you from defending the Mortality of the Soul , by any considerations drawn from them , and their most fatal effects . For , as to Lipothymies , which according to the Etymologie of the word , you call Failings of the Soul ; they are in truth only Failings of the Heart , or vital influence ; arising from the preclusion or stopping of those passages , ordained for the continual transmission of vital Spirits ; which as servants , the Soul makes use of to Life , Sense , and Motion . And , therefore , reflecting upon what I have already said , it is obvious to conceive , that the whole Soul being diffused through the whole body ; all the failing in Swooning fits doth fall , not upon her Self , but upon the Vital Organs , which at that time are rendred unfit for the uses and actions , to which they were framed and accommodated . And , if the Causes of such Failings should chance to be so violent , as to induce suddain death ; then the Soul , indeed , would and must wholly depart : yet not by reason of any dissolution of its substance , or exceeding imbecility in it self ; but only for want of those Dispositions in the Organs of life , by which she was enabled to enliven the body . And here I could mind you of a certain sort of Lypothymies , that happen in Ecstasies of some Holy men , when the Soul being transported with the superlative beauty and excellency of Divine Objects , in abstracted contemplations , doth so much neglect her inferior functions , as that the body all that while seems senselesse and livelesse : And yet this an argument rather of the strength of the Soul , than of any Failing or Defection in it self . I could also insist upon this , that in sleep there is a kind of Defection of the influence of the Soul upon her corporeal Organs , especially those inservient to Sense and Motion ▪ and yet the Soul is then most her self , as Cyrus long since observed , in one of Xenophons Orations , in these most elegant words ; Dormientium Animi maximè declarant Divinitatem suam ; multa enim , eum remissi ac liberi sunt , futura prospiciunt : ex quo intelligitur , quales futuri sint , cum se planè corporis vinculis relaxaverint . But the Objection , being otherwise refuted , doth require neither . Lucretius . Experience teacheth , that no man , when dying , findeth his Soul to depart out of his body whole and at once ; but rather to fail by degrees within his breast , just as he doth his Sense , in each proper Organ : Which he would not do , in case his Soul took her flight whole and intire , out of his breast , as a bird out of a Cage ; and therefore it is probable that the Soul , being dissolved at the instant of death , is breathed out in dispersed Atoms together with the Aer expired from the Lungs . Athanasius . You must needs be streightned for Objections , Lucretius , when you fly to uncertain Experiments , and incompetent conceptions of vulgar heads ; and therefore I hope , you cannot much longer hold out against truth . I say , to uncertain experiments ; because , since it is impossible that any man , in the extream moment of life , wherein his Soul ceaseth to be either in his breast , or any other part of his body , should say to the standers by , Now I am sensible of the egresse or flight of my Soul , and I perceive how it departs ; because while he is able to speak , or be sensible of any thing , the Soul is still in the body , and at the instant of its departure , the Speech & all Sense fail for ever : The experience you alleage is uncertain and so no experience at all . To incompetent Conceptions of vulgar heads ; because the common people , not being able to understand the nature of an Incorporeal ; and how possessing no place , no body can hinder its passage or trajection ; have a certain grosse apprehension , that the Soul must issue out of the breast , the same way that the breath doth out of the lungs . And as for its Dispersion into Atoms ; you do ill to suppose it to be Corporeal , when you have been so often beaten from that starting hole . These Impertinences are much below so great a wit , as yours , Lucretius ; and I should very much wonder how you could fall upon them , but that I ascribe it to your present humour of Contradiction , which doth many times transport even wise men themselves to gross extravagancies . Lucretius . If the Soul were Immortal , and conscious of its Immortality , as you have affirmed ; certainly it would not grieve to leave the body , which is rather its prison , than delightful Mansion ; but rather rejoyce to be set at liberty , and exult , as a snake doth to cast her slough , or a stagg his old horns . Athanasius . To this I prepared a Solution , when I proved the Appetite of Immortality to be Natural to the Soul , however this present life cause in us a love of it self , above that we ought to have of our future state ; just as the Appetite or love of Health doth not cease to be Natural , however the blandishments of Sense , and flattering baits of some present pleasure , that impugnes health , may create in us a stronger desire , for the time : and therefore you might have well omitted here to argue the Mortality of the Soul , from its reluctancy against death , and unwillingnesse to leave its old companion , the body . However , without insisting upon this , that many men even in this life , long used to a mean and turbulent state or condition , become so depraved and abject in their judgement and affection , as to refuse to change it for a better , if they might : To what I have said formerly of the Universal desire of Immortality , I shall annex this one both pertinent and memorable consideration , out of Cicero ( in Catone majore ) Quid , quod sapientissimus quisque aequissimo animo moritur , stultissimus iniquissimo ? Nonne nobis videtur Animus is , qui plus cernat , & longiùs , videre se ad meliora proficisci : ille autem , cujus obtusior sit acies , non videre ? Equidem efferor studio patres vestros quos colui , & dilexi , videndi . Neque verò eos solùm convenire aveo , sed illos etiam , de quibus audivi & legi , & ipse conscripsi . Quò quidem me proficisceutem , haud scio quis facile retraxerit , & tanquam Peliam recoxerit . Quod si quis Deus mihi largiatur , ut ex hac aetate repuerascam , & in cunis vagiam , valde recusem ; nec verò velim , quasi decurso spatio à calce ad carceres revocari . Doth not every wise man die with extream content and serenity of mind ; and only Fools with disquiet , impatience , and reluctancy ? Is not that mind to be accounted the most clear sighted , which seeth things afar off , and discerns that it is to be translated into a better state : and that dim and weak , which doth not look beyond things present , and discern nothing of its future condition ? For my part , truly , I am even transported with vehement longing to behold again the faces of those brave men , your Fathers , whom , in their lives , I so much loved and honored . And not only them , but some other worthy persons also , whose fame I have heard and read of , and celebrated in my own writings . And , if I were so happy once , as to be on my journey toward those Heroes ; I know none , that should easily draw me back again , or retard my speed , by restoring my youth , like Pelias . If any of the Gods should think to do me a favour , in making me young again , now after I have attained to this my declining age : I profess , I would refuse the proffer ; nor would I , having run over the stage of life , be brought back again to the post , from which I first set forth . Hereunto I might add also that patheticall Exclamation of that Emperour of wisedom , Marcus Antoninus ; Ecquando futura es , O Anima , bona simplex , una , nuda , corpore te ambiente dilucidior ? Ecquando dispositionem dilectioni et affectui genuino deditam degustabis ? Ecquando futura es plena , rei nullius indiga , nihil desiderans ulterius , nihil expetens &c. As if He were angry , and passionately expostulating with his soul , that she staid so long in the indigent and vexatious condition of this life , and had omitted opportunities of translating herself into a better , in which she would be intirely Herself , and injoy those pleasures , that are more genuine and agreeable to her immortal nature . But , so clear a truth , as this of the Souls desire of an Immortal state , after death , notwithstanding the unwillingness of some abject minds ( loaden with earthy and base affections ) to submit to the stroke of Death , which alone can transport them into that state : doth need no further testimonies , or illustration . Lucretius . If the Soul survive the body , and be Cognoscent or Knowing , after death ; doubtless it must be furnished with senses , that so she may see , hear , &c. in order to her knowledge : but , when once divorced from her Copartner , the body , she neither hath , nor can have Organs for any such uses at all ; and therefore she can have no knowledge . Athanasius . Here again you touch upon that so often rejected confusion of Knowledge and Sensation , as if they were one and the same thing ; when from sundry passages in my precedent discourses , you might have easily collected , that the sense ascribed to the Soul , is neither Hearing , nor seeing , nor &c. but the very power of Understanding , or Intellection itself : which is indeed called many times [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] Sense , in a general acceptation of the word ; because Cognition is a Perception , and because it comprehends , in way of Eminency , all the subordinate senses , or Faculties of sensation , i. e. by itself it knowes Colours , as the Eye ; sounds , as the Eare ; and so of the rest . And this is the proper prerogative of superior Faculties , that besides their owne higher and nobler Functions , they comprehend likewise all the Functions of Inferiors , and that in a transcendent and more excellent manner , as I have already explained . But , as for the particular manner of the Souls Knowledge , after death ; I remit you to Sr. Kenelme Digbies sublime Speculations concerning the condition of a separate Soul ; in which , though perhaps you may not meet with such satisfaction , as you expect : yet you will meet with more than I can now give you , without repeating his notions . Lucretius . Well , Athanasius , you would not have referred me to another , but that you are almost exhausted and wearied with speaking thus long yourself ; and therefore it becomes me in civility to consider the weakness of your lungs , and slowness of your tongue ( of both which I remember , you have many years since often complained ) and to ease you of this penance my curiosity put upon you , as soon as I have proposed one Objection more , which wiser men than myself have thought not a little difficult to be solved ; and that , in short , is this . Considering the vast disparity and ( in truth ) absolute incompossibility betwixt the affections of a Corporeal and Incorporeal Nature ; it seems unreasonable to conceive , that they can be conjoyned in one Composition , such as Man is , if ( as you affirme ) his soul be an Immortal substance , and his Body a Mortal . Pray , therefore , make good the possibility of such a Conjunction : and , if you can , explain what is the common caement or Glew , that unites and holds them together ; and then I have done opposing you . Athanasius . You very well understand Epicurus doctrine of an Eternal and Incorporeal Inanity , or space diffused through the world , and commixed with all Bodies or Concretions , which are yet dissoluble : and doe you pretend after this , that you cannot conceive it reasonable , that an Incorporeal should be conjoyned to a Corporeal ? But , suppose you really cannot conceive it reasonable ; must it therefore be unreasonable , when so many and so eminent Philosophers have understood , and allowed the reasonableness of this Conjunction ? What think you , in the first place , of Plato , Aristotle , and all their sectators , who unanimously held the Anima Mundi , or Universal Soul , and that being diffused through all parts of the Universe , it associateth and mixeth itself with all things , and totam intus agitat molem ? And then what think you of those words of the great Hermes , quoted by Lactantius ; when discoursing of the Nature of Man , and how he was Created by God , he saith : Ac idem ex utraque natura , immortali putà , ac mortali , unam hominis naturam texebat , ipsum quadamtenus immortalem , quadamtenus mortalem faciens ; ac eundem accipiens , in medio quasi interstitio , heinc divinae , immortalisque ; illeinc mortalis obnoxiaeque mutationi naturae constituit , ut in omnia intuens , omnia miraretur . And thus Trismegistus ; from whence it came , that Man was esteemed as it were the Horizon of the Universe , in whom Supreme natures are joyned to the most Low , and the Heavenly to the Earthy : and this with admirable correspondency , and as beseems the perfection of the Universe ; because , since there are some Natures purely Incorporeal and Immortal , and others purely Corporeal and Mortal ; that these Extremes might not be without a Mean , nothing seems more congruous , than that there should be a certain sort of third Natures , so mixed and compound of both the others , as to be Incorporeal and Immortal , on one part , and Corporeal and Mortal , on the other . Again , whereas you imagine it absurd , that natures so extremely different should concur to constitute one Composition ; I beseech you , Lucretius , are not Heat , and Cold , white and black , as different each from other , as Immortal and Mortal ? and yet you see , they are often conjoyned together , so as that a Middle or Third nature doth result from their union , as in particular , warme , from Heat and Cold , and Grey or browne , from white and black . Nay , there seems so much the less repugnancy betwixt Immortal and Mortal , Incorporeal and Corporeal natures ; by how much they are the less Different and Incompossible because they are only as it were Disparate among themselves , and capable of conserving a whole nature : but Heat and Cold , Whiteness and Blackness , are absolute Contraries , and cannot consist together , without reciprocal destruction , or maintain a durable Union . And thus much for the First part of your Demand , viz , the Possibility of a Conjunction betwixt an Incorporeal and a Corporeal Nature . As for the remainder , viz , what is the Common Medium , Cement or Glew , by which two such different natures are married and united into one Compositum ; I Answer , that I conceive it to be the Blood , especially the spiritual and most elaborate or refined part thereof : according to that ancient opinion of Critias , Sentire , maximè proprium esse Animae ; atqe hoc inesse propter sanguinis naturam ; commemorated by Aristotle ( though with dissent ) in the 2 Ch. of his 1. Book de Anima ; and with the testimony of sundry admirable Experiments , both revived and asserted by our perspicacious Contryman , Dr. Harvey , in his Exercitations concerning the Generation of Animals . For , since the visible observations of the Manner and process of Nature , in the production of the Chicken in and from the Egg , doe assure that the Blood is the part of the body , which is first generated , nourished , and moved ; and that the Soul is Excited and as it were Enkindled first from the blood : doubtless , the blood is that , in which the operations vegetative and sensitive do first manifest themselves ; that , in which the vital Heat , ( the primary and immediate instrument of the Soul , especially as to Animation ) is innate and congenial ; that , which is the Common Vinculum , or Caement of the Soul and body ; and that , by the mediation whereof , as a vehicle , the Soul doth transmit her conserving and invigorating influence into all parts of the body . Nay , considering that the Blood , by perpetual Circulation , doth flow ( like a river of Living water ) round the body , penetrating into and irrigating the substance of all the parts , and at the same time communicating to them both Heat and Life ; and that the Heart is framed for no other end , but that by perpetual pulsation ( together with the concurrence of the veins and arteries ) it may receive this blood , and againe propell it into all the body : I say , these things duely considered , it can be but a Paradox at most , to affirme , that the Soul having its first , and perhaps principal residence in the Blood , may very well be conceived to be , in respect thereof , Tota in toto , and tota in qualibet parte . And , lastly , concerning the Manner of this Conjunction of the Soul and body , by the Mediation of this vital Nectat , the Blood ; it is not necessary , with the Vulgar , to imagine , that they should mutually touch , and by hooks take reciprocall hold each of other , in order to Cohaesion and constant Union ; for , that is competent only to Corporeals ; but that Incorporeals should be conjoyned either one : to another , or to Corporeals , no more is required but an Intimate Praesence , which is yet a kind of Contact , and so may serve in stead of mutual Apprehension and Continency . So that this special Manner of Praesence is that and only that , by which an Incorporeal Entity may be united to a Corporeal . And now I have explained those difficulties concerning the Conjunction of the Soul and Body , the one an Incorporeal and Immortal Being , the other Corporeal and Mortal ▪ which you seemed to think in-explicable . I expect you should be as good as your promise , no longer to oppose me , but hereafter concurr with me in opinion , that The Soul is an Immortal substance : and that its Immortality is not only credible by Faith , or upon Authority Divine ; but also Demonstrable by Reason , or the Light of Nature . Lucretius . You may remember , Sr : I told you in the beginning , that though I am an Epicurean , in many things concerning Bodies ; yet , as a Christian , I detest and utterly renounce the doctrine of that Sect , concerning Mens Souls : and that I askt your permission to interrupt you sometimes in your discourses , by intermixing such Doubts , and Objections , as seemed to render the Demonstration of the Souls Immortality , by meet ▪ Reason , exceeding difficult , if not altogether impossible ; to this end only , that I might the more fully experiment the strength of your Arguments to the Contrary . So that notwithstanding all my Contradiction , you ought to believe me still as strongly perswaded of the truth of what you have asserted , as if I had acted your part , and undertaken the assertion of the same myself : my diffidence being not of the Souls Incorruptibility , but of the possibility of its Demonstration , by you or any man else . And now , though you have brought , I confess , most excellent Arguments to prove it , and both satisfied all my Doubts , and solved all my Objections : yet whether you have so Demonstrated it , as to exclude all Dubiosity , and compell assent ( which is the propriety of perfect Demonstration ) in a pure Natural Philosopher , who refuseth to admit any other conviction , but from the Light of Nature ; I must leave to the judgement of our Arbiter , the noble Isodicastes , who will not , I am well assured , deliver any but an equitable Censure in the Cause . Athanasius . And you may remember too , Lucretius , how in the beginning I advertised you of the Unreasonableness of such over-curious Wits , as expect Mathematicall Demonstrations in Metaphysicall Subjects , which are really incapable of them ; and gave you an undeniable Reason thereof . So that considering my timely prevention of your expectation in that kind ; and your owne confession that I have satisfied all your Scruples , and solved all your Objections : I cannot but wonder at your obstinacy in your old opinion , that it is not possible to convince a meer Natural man , of the Souls Immortality , by the testimony of pure Reason . Nevertheless , I freely joyn with you , in your Appeal to the verdict of Isodicastes , than whom certainly no man can be more judicious , no man more just . Isodicastes . The matter now at last in dispute betwixt you , seems to be this ; whether in a Thesis , or Proposition , which is not capable of being evinced by a Geometrical Demonstration ( as this of the Souls Immortality seems not to be ) there can yet be expected such substantiall and satisfactory Reasons , Physical or Moral , or both , as may suffice to the full establishment of it's Truth , in the mind of a reasonable man ? And therefore ( that I may give you my opinion , in a word ) I say ; that though in things belonging to the eognizance of a pure Philosopher , every one ought to seek for the best assurance , of which the nature of that thing , into which he enquireth , will possibly admit ; and that the way of Demonstration , More Geometrico , is of all others the most convincing and scientificall : yet , since many things not only in Metaphysicks , but even in Physicks , are of so retired and abstruse a nature , as not to be brought under the strict laws and rules of Geometry , of which notwithstanding we may acquire a competent certitude , by well examining their Effects and constant Operations ; as on one side , we ought not to require absolute Demonstrations , where the Condition of the subject doth exclude them ; so on the other , we ought not to deny the force of all other testimonies , that right Reason offereth in evidence of its verity asserted , especially when all that can be said against it , shall be found vain and light , in comparison of what is alleaged in defence of it . This considered , though Athanasius hath not precisely ( according to the rigorous acceptation of the word ) Demonstrated the Immortality of Mans Soul ; yet forasmuch as He hath proved it by good and important Reasons , aswell Physical as Moral , such as are not much inferiour to absolute Demonstrations , and such as by vast excesses transcend the weight of all your opposite Allegations , Lucretius : truely , I think you ought to rest satisfied , that He hath discharged himself of his Undertaking to the Full ; especially since it would be a very hard task for you to maintain , that all the beams of the Light of Nature do concentre only in Mathematical Demonstrations , and that we can know nothing , which is not Demonstrable . And now Gentlemen , if you please , let us be going towards my house , where I am sure we were expected at least an hour agoe , and where I shall have leasure to thank you more solemnely for the infinite content I have received from your Conversation . Athanasius . We are ready to attend you , Noblest Isodicastes ; and shall ever be as ready to acknowledg the singular Honour you have done us , in losing this Evening upon persons so unable to merit your attention , as we have now shewne ourselves . FINIS .