A conference held at Paris betweene Father Gontier a Iesuite, and Doctor Du Moulin seconded by the Lady of Salignac. Together with Doctor Du Moulin his answere to Gontier his letter to the King concerning the subiect of this conference. By Peter Du Moulin Doctor of Diuinitie, and minister of the Word of God in the church of Paris. Translated according to the French copie printed in Paris.
         Veritable narré de la conference entre les Sieurs Du Moulin et Gontier. English
         Du Moulin, Pierre, 1568-1658.
      
       
         
           1615
        
      
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             A conference held at Paris betweene Father Gontier a Iesuite, and Doctor Du Moulin seconded by the Lady of Salignac. Together with Doctor Du Moulin his answere to Gontier his letter to the King concerning the subiect of this conference. By Peter Du Moulin Doctor of Diuinitie, and minister of the Word of God in the church of Paris. Translated according to the French copie printed in Paris.
             Veritable narré de la conference entre les Sieurs Du Moulin et Gontier. English
             Du Moulin, Pierre, 1568-1658.
             Gontery, Jean, 1562-1616. aut
          
           [4], 24 p.
           
             Printed [at Eliot's Court Press] for Iohn Barnes and are to be sold [by Nathaniel Butter] at the signe of the Pyde-Bull neere Saint Austines gate,
             London :
             1615.
          
           
             A translation of: Veritable narré de la conference entre les Sieurs Du Moulin et Gontier.
             Identification of printer and bookseller from STC.
             Often bound with (as issued?): Du Moulin, Pierre. Father Cotton a Jesuite, the Kings confessour, his two and thirtie demands to the ministers of France. London: Printed by Edward Griffin for Nathaniel Butter .., 1615.
             Reproduction of the original in the British Library.
          
        
      
    
     
       
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           Theology, Doctrinal -- Early works to 1800.
        
      
    
     
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           A
           CONFERENCE
           HELD
           AT
           PARIS
           betweene
           Father
           
             Gontier
          
           a
           
             Iesuite
             ,
          
           and
           DOCTOR
           
             Du
             Moulin
             :
          
           SECONDED
           BY
           THE
           LADY
           OF
           SALIGNAC
           .
           Together
           with
           Doctor
           
             Du
             Moulin
          
           his
           answere
           to
           GONTIER
           his
           letter
           to
           the
           
             KING
          
           concerning
           the
           subiect
           of
           this
           CONFERENCE
           .
           By
           
             Peter
             Du
             Moulin
          
           Doctor
           of
           Diuinitie
           ,
           and
           Minister
           of
           the
           
             Word
          
           of
           GOD
           in
           the
           Church
           of
           PARIS
           .
        
         
           Translated
           according
           to
           the
           French
           Copie
           printed
           in
           PARIS
           .
        
         
           LONDON
           Printed
           for
           IOHN
           BARNES
           and
           are
           to
           be
           sold
           at
           the
           signe
           of
           the
           Pyde-Bull
           neere
           Saint
           Austines
           gate
           .
           1615.
           
        
      
       
         
         
         
           TO
           THE
           VERY
           GODLY
           AND
           RIGHT
           NOBLE
           Lady
           ,
           my
           Lady
           ELIZABETH
           WINVVOOD
           :
           
             Wife
             to
             the
          
           Right
           honourable
           Sir
           RALPH
           WINVVOOD
           
             Knight
             ,
             one
          
           of
           his
           Maiesties
           Priuy
           
             Counsell
             ,
             and
             Principall
          
           Secretary
           
             to
             the
             State.
             
          
        
         
           MAdam
           ,
           it
           may
           bee
           thought
           a
           double
           recompence
           in
           you
           ,
           amongst
           many
           workes
           and
           many
           writers
           ,
           if
           you
           would
           onely
           spare
           employments
           to
           peruse
           and
           giue
           (
           in
           charity
           )
           a
           milde
           opinion
           of
           this
           .
           But
           I
           (
           intending
           to
           your selfe
           a
           recompence
           ,
           for
           late
           and
           earely
           loues
           vouchsafed
           by
           your
           honourable
           Husband
           )
           dare
           honestly
           prefixe
           your
           name
           to
           this
           ,
           and
           thinke
           it
           woorth
           
           your
           patronage
           .
           When
           as
           indeede
           omnipotence
           it selfe
           cannot
           be
           well
           entituled
           to
           any
           thing
           but
           truth
           :
           then
           certainely
           it
           should
           be
           triumph
           ,
           to
           defend
           a
           truth
           conuincing
           .
           And
           such
           a
           truth
           is
           now
           commended
           to
           your
           fauor
           :
           which
           if
           it
           may
           acquit
           my
           zeale
           vnto
           your
           Knight
           and
           You
           ,
           of
           thanks
           though
           not
           of
           satisfaction
           .
           For
           hauing
           thought
           your selfe
           most
           worthy
           to
           defend
           this
           truth
           ,
           opposed
           by
           one
           of
           your
           own
           sexe
           ,
           &
           almost
           of
           the
           same
           rank
           ,
           I
           shall
           according
           to
           my
           wish
           esteeme
           it
           sutable
           to
           your
           person
           ,
           whom
           with
           your
           honourable
           Husband
           ,
           I
           doe
           now
           leaue
           to
           Heauens
           disposall
           ;
           which
           may
           enable
           me
           to
           discharge
           a
           further
           duty
           .
        
         
           
             Your
             Ladyships
             most
             deepely
             bound
             ,
             IOHN
             BARNES
             .
          
        
      
    
     
       
         
         
           
             A
          
           TRVE
           NARRATION
           of
           the
           conference
           betweene
           
             Du
             Moulin
             and
          
           Gontier
           ,
           
             seconded
             by
             my
          
           Lady
           BARONESSE
           of
           
             Salignac
             .
          
        
         
           PETER
           
             Du
             Moulin
          
           hapning
           about
           three
           of
           the
           clocke
           in
           the
           after-noone
           to
           meete
           with
           Monsieur
           
             de
             Liembrune
          
           before
           his
           gate
           in
           Marsh
           streete
           ,
           was
           requested
           by
           him
           to
           steppe
           vp
           along
           with
           him
           vnto
           his
           chamber
           ,
           where
           hee
           was
           no
           sooner
           come
           ,
           but
           he
           saw
           the
           roome
           full
           of
           Ladies
           ;
           among
           which
           ,
           one
           of
           them
           ,
           at
           the
           first
           on
           set
           ,
           entreated
           him
           to
           explaine
           the
           31.
           article
           ,
           in
           the
           confession
           of
           the
           faith
           of
           the
           reformed
           Churches
           .
           
             Du
             Moulin
          
           answered
           ,
           that
           if
           it
           pleased
           her
           to
           take
           the
           paines
           to
           come
           home
           to
           his
           house
           ,
           he
           would
           do
           the
           best
           he
           could
           to
           satisfie
           her
           .
           Presently
           vpon
           that
           another
           Lady
           replied
           and
           said
           ,
           that
           we
           ought
           at
           all
           times
           be
           readie
           to
           giue
           an
           account
           of
           our
           faith
           :
           that
           
             Du
             Moulin
          
           ought
           not
           deny
           to
           instruct
           them
           herein
           which
           did
           demand
           it
           of
           him
           :
           whereunto
           
             Du
             Moulin
          
           answered
           ,
           that
           hee
           knew
           well
           enough
           ,
           they
           did
           not
           aske
           this
           for
           any
           desire
           they
           had
           to
           
           be
           instructed
           ;
           and
           to
           dispute
           about
           religion
           with
           women
           ,
           which
           tattle
           altogether
           ;
           and
           after
           they
           are
           gone
           publish
           what
           they
           please
           ,
           were
           to
           wrong
           the
           truth
           of
           religion
           .
           One
           among
           them
           replied
           ,
           that
           she
           could
           not
           satisfie
           her selfe
           as
           concerning
           this
           Article
           ,
           and
           that
           it
           was
           often
           obiected
           to
           her
           ,
           how
           that
           our
           Ministers
           were
           not
           able
           to
           giue
           an
           account
           of
           their
           Mission
           and
           Vocation
           .
           
             Du
             Moulin
          
           answered
           ,
           that
           he
           wondred
           much
           how
           she
           forgat
           to
           aske
           a
           reason
           of
           them
           for
           the
           iustifying
           of
           theirs
           :
           and
           that
           had
           she
           so
           done
           ,
           she
           should
           haue
           found
           them
           lesse
           able
           to
           satisfie
           her
           :
           that
           euery
           one
           which
           presumes
           to
           aske
           a
           reason
           of
           another
           for
           the
           maintaining
           of
           his
           vocation
           ,
           ought
           to
           be
           sure
           that
           he
           is
           able
           to
           iustifie
           his
           owne
           ,
           and
           be
           readie
           at
           any
           time
           to
           yeeld
           a
           reason
           .
           He
           had
           no
           sooner
           spoken
           these
           wordes
           ,
           but
           in
           comes
           
             Gontier
             ,
          
           with
           two
           others
           ,
           which
           brought
           many
           bookes
           along
           with
           them
           ;
           
             Gontier
          
           at
           his
           first
           entrance
           asked
           what
           was
           the
           matter
           ?
           what
           it
           was
           that
           was
           said
           there
           ?
           Why
           my
           Lady
           heere
           (
           said
           
             Du
             Moulin
             )
          
           requires
           a
           reason
           of
           me
           to
           iustifie
           my
           Mission
           :
           and
           I
           told
           her
           ,
           that
           she
           should
           haue
           demanded
           the
           like
           of
           you
           ,
           for
           the
           iustifying
           of
           yours
           .
        
         
           
             Gontier
             .
          
           
             This
             is
             onely
             a
             shift
             to
             rid
             your
             necke
             out
             of
             the
             coller
             .
          
        
         
           
             Du
             Moulin
             .
          
           
             It
             is
             no
             shift
             at
             all
             :
             for
             whosoeuer
             is
             so
             bold
             ,
             as
             to
             demaund
             a
             reason
             of
             another
             for
             his
             vocation
             ,
             bindes
             himselfe
             thereby
             to
             giue
             an
             account
             of
             his
             owne
             .
             But
             if
             you
             will
             confesse
             that
             you
             are
             not
             able
             to
             defende
             yours
             ,
             I
             will
             presently
             heere
             take
             vpon
             mee
             to
             defende
             mine
             .
          
        
         
           
             Gont.
             
          
           
             Pray
             sir
             ,
             be
             not
             cholericke
             ;
             you
             doe
             not
             heare
             me
             acknowledge
             any
             such
             matter
             .
          
        
         
           
             Du
             Moul.
             
          
           
             I
             speake
             nothing
             ,
             but
             what
             is
             apparantly
             true
             ;
             and
             do
             here
             vndertake
             to
             proue
             that
             you
             haue
             no
             vocation
             .
          
        
         
           
           
             Gont.
             
          
           
             Who
             hath
             giuen
             you
             authoritie
             to
             speake
             so
             saucily
             to
             your
             superiours
             .
          
        
         
           
             Du
             Moul.
             
          
           
             As
             for
             your
             dignitie
             I
             denie
             that
             you
             haue
             any
             such
             superioritie
             ouer
             me
             .
             But
             to
             the
             point
             ,
             I
             heere
             maintaine
             that
             you
             haue
             no
             commission
             ;
             for
             you
             call
             your selues
             Priests
             ,
             and
             haue
             receiued
             this
             order
             of
             priesthood
             in
             this
             manner
             :
             which
             is
             ,
             that
             the
             Bishop
             ,
             hauing
             anointed
             your
             fingers
             ,
             and
             imposed
             his
             hands
             ,
             saith
             vnto
             you
             ;
             
               Receiue
               power
               to
               offer
               vp
               sacrifice
               to
               God
               ,
               and
               to
               celebrate
               the
               Masse
               ,
               as
               well
               for
               the
               liuing
               as
               the
               dead
               :
            
             By
             this
             meanes
             he
             hath
             made
             you
             Sacrificers
             to
             sacrifice
             Iesus
             Christ
             .
             I
             demaund
             of
             you
             therefore
             in
             what
             place
             of
             Scripture
             Bishops
             are
             authorized
             to
             establish
             such
             sacrificing
             Priests
             in
             the
             Church
             .
          
        
         
           
             Gont.
          
           That
           is
           easily
           prooued
           ,
           out
           of
           the
           second
           and
           fifth
           Chapters
           of
           the
           first
           Epistle
           to
           
             Timothie
             ;
          
           bring
           mee
           a
           new
           Testament
           hither
           :
           hereupon
           a
           Testament
           was
           brought
           him
           ,
           wherein
           he
           read
           these
           two
           Chapters
           ,
           which
           was
           not
           a
           little
           tedious
           to
           the
           standers
           by
           ;
           and
           finding
           nothing
           there
           that
           he
           desired
           ,
           said
           to
           one
           of
           his
           company
           (
           which
           was
           his
           assistant
           )
           go
           and
           fetch
           me
           my
           *
           Concordaunce
           ,
           which
           being
           brought
           ,
           he
           stood
           turning
           the
           leaues
           along
           time
           without
           saying
           a
           word
           :
           
             Du
             Moulin
          
           being
           weary
           of
           staying
           for
           his
           answere
           ,
           said
           vnto
           him
           ,
           if
           this
           disgrace
           had
           lighted
           vpon
           me
           to
           haue
           beene
           put
           to
           silence
           ,
           and
           to
           send
           for
           my
           Concordaunce
           ,
           I
           should
           be
           ashamed
           euer
           to
           shew
           my
           face
           more
           in
           any
           honest
           company
           :
           wherupon
           Monsieur
           
             de
             Liembrune
          
           tould
           
             Gontier
             ,
          
           Sir
           I
           am
           ashamed
           to
           see
           ,
           that
           which
           I
           do
           :
           for
           you
           haue
           often
           told
           me
           that
           the
           Ministers
           durst
           not
           speak
           a
           word
           before
           you
           ,
           and
           now
           I
           see
           you
           driuen
           to
           such
           straites
           ,
           that
           you
           haue
           not
           a
           word
           to
           say
           :
           After
           halfe
           an
           houres
           silence
           ,
           I
           sought
           (
           said
           
             Gontier
             )
          
           a
           place
           of
           Scripture
           ,
           wherein
           there
           is
           mention
           made
           of
           imposition
           of
           handes
           :
           I
           will
           ease
           you
           ,
           said
           
             Du
             Moulin
             ,
          
           of
           the
           paines
           and
           presently
           turned
           to
           the
           
           place
           ,
           which
           is
           in
           the
           4.
           
           Chapter
           of
           the
           first
           Epistle
           to
           
             Timothy
             .
             Gontier
          
           red
           the
           words
           which
           were
           these
           ,
           
             Despise
             not
             the
             gift
             that
             is
             in
             thee
             ,
             which
             was
             giuen
             thee
             by
             prophesie
             ,
             with
             the
             laying
             on
             of
             the
             hands
             of
             the
             company
             of
             the
             elders
             :
          
           Note
           withall
           that
           these
           elders
           were
           Priests
           ,
           and
           that
           Greeke
           word
           imports
           as
           much
           .
        
         
           
             Du
             Moul.
             
          
           
             This
             doth
             not
             proue
             at
             all
             that
             Bishops
             haue
             authoritie
             from
             God
             to
             establish
             sacrificers
             in
             the
             Church
             .
          
        
         
           
             Gontier
          
           in
           steede
           of
           answering
           ,
           tooke
           a
           Bible
           ,
           and
           turning
           himselfe
           towards
           Monsieur
           
             de
             Liembrune
             ,
          
           said
           that
           he
           would
           shew
           ,
           that
           vnder
           the
           old
           law
           ,
           the
           Church
           was
           neuer
           without
           Sacrificers
           .
        
         
           
             Du
             Moul.
             
          
           
             That
             is
             nothing
             to
             the
             purpose
             ,
             we
             speake
             of
             the
             authoritie
             which
             Bishops
             haue
             to
             make
             Sacrificers
             vnder
             the
             new
             Testament
             .
          
        
         
           
             Gont.
          
           Whereupon
           
             Gontier
          
           being
           at
           a
           stand
           ,
           asked
           for
           pen
           and
           inke
           ,
           which
           being
           brought
           ,
           hee
           falls
           a
           writing
           without
           speaking
           a
           word
           ,
           and
           then
           blotted
           out
           that
           which
           he
           had
           written
           ,
           which
           made
           the
           company
           wonder
           at
           him
           .
        
         
           
             Du
             Moul
          
           s
           .
           aid
           vnto
           him
           ,
           you
           gaine
           time
           ,
           and
           vnder
           the
           colour
           of
           writing
           take
           leisure
           to
           thinke
           vpon
           some
           thing
           to
           saue
           your selfe
           .
        
         
           
             Gont.
          
           Laying
           aside
           his
           writing
           entreated
           
             Du
             Moulin
          
           to
           set
           downe
           his
           proposition
           in
           writing
           .
        
         
           
             Du
             Moul.
          
           Then
           at
           his
           entreatie
           writ
           these
           words
           .
           Let
           any
           man
           shew
           me
           out
           of
           the
           word
           of
           God
           ,
           that
           the
           Bishops
           of
           the
           Romish
           Church
           haue
           authoritie
           to
           establish
           Sacrificers
           in
           the
           Church
           .
        
         
           
             Gont.
             
          
           
             I
             will
             proue
             vnto
             you
             that
             the
             Apostles
             were
             Sacrificers
             .
          
        
         
           
             Du
             Moul.
             
          
           
             This
             is
             not
             the
             thing
             in
             question
             ,
             neither
             doth
             it
             proue
             that
             which
             I
             demaund
             .
          
        
         
           
             Gont.
             
          
           
             It
             is
             sufficient
             if
             I
             proue
             that
             the
             Apostles
             were
             
             Priests
             and
             did
             offer
             vp
             sacrifices
             .
          
        
         
           
             Du
             Moul.
             
          
           
             Since
             you
             are
             at
             a
             stay
             ,
             and
             that
             I
             cannot
             draw
             any
             proofe
             from
             you
             of
             the
             power
             that
             Bishops
             haue
             ,
             to
             establish
             sacrificing
             Priests
             in
             the
             Church
             ,
             let
             vs
             see
             how
             you
             proue
             that
             the
             Apostles
             were
             sacrificers
             .
             Hereupon
             
               Gontier
            
             tooke
             his
             pen
             and
             wrote
             that
             which
             followes
             .
          
        
         
           
             Gont.
             
          
           
             This
             word
             ,
             
               to
               Sacrifice
               ,
            
             in
             his
             primary
             signification
             imports
             as
             much
             as
             to
             do
             an
             holy
             thing
             ;
             but
             the
             Apostles
             were
             ordained
             to
             do
             an
             holy
             thing
             ,
             therefore
             the
             Apostles
             were
             ordained
             to
             sacrifice
             .
          
        
         
           
             Du
             Moul.
             
          
           
             We
             haue
             nothing
             to
             doe
             here
             with
             Etymologies
             ,
             but
             with
             the
             sence
             of
             this
             word
             ,
             
               to
               sacrifice
               ,
            
             as
             it
             is
             taken
             in
             the
             Church
             of
             Rome
             ,
             to
             wit
             ,
             to
             offer
             vp
             really
             vnto
             God
             the
             body
             of
             Iesus
             Christ
             in
             a
             propitiatorie
             sacrifice
             for
             the
             liuing
             and
             the
             dead
             .
             To
             pray
             vnto
             God
             is
             to
             do
             an
             holy
             thing
             ,
             yet
             neuerthelesse
             euery
             one
             that
             praieth
             is
             not
             therefore
             a
             sacrificer
             in
             this
             sence
             :
             whereupon
             it
             followes
             that
             the
             conclusion
             is
             nothing
             to
             the
             purpose
             ,
             since
             the
             word
             ,
             
               to
               sacrifice
               ,
            
             is
             taken
             therein
             in
             another
             sence
             then
             we
             take
             it
             .
          
        
         
           
             Gont.
             
          
           
             I
             haue
             proued
             that
             which
             I
             was
             to
             proue
             .
          
        
         
           
             Du
             Moul.
             
          
           
             I
             denie
             it
             ,
             this
             is
             nothing
             to
             the
             purpose
             ,
             you
             tie
             your selues
             to
             the
             word
             ,
             so
             to
             auoide
             the
             thing
             .
          
        
         
           
             Gont.
             
          
           
             I
             haue
             done
             enough
             ,
             and
             you
             haue
             granted
             what
             I
             demanded
             .
          
        
         
           
             Du
             Moul.
             
          
           
             I
             do
             not
             agree
             with
             you
             in
             that
             ,
             and
             doe
             call
             the
             company
             to
             witnesse
             ,
             if
             there
             be
             any
             one
             here
             which
             hath
             hitherto
             heard
             Master
             Doctour
             speake
             one
             word
             to
             proue
             that
             Bishops
             haue
             authoritie
             from
             God
             to
             establish
             Sacrificers
             in
             the
             Church
             :
             or
             that
             the
             Apostles
             were
             Sacrificers
             ,
             to
             sacrifice
             Iesus
             Christ
             .
          
        
         
           
             Gont.
          
           Whereat
           all
           holding
           their
           tongues
           ,
           
             Gontier
          
           answered
           and
           said
           that
           Iesus
           Christ
           had
           said
           vnto
           his
           Apostles
           :
           
           
             Do
             this
             ,
          
           and
           thereby
           commanded
           them
           to
           sacrifice
           .
        
         
           
             Du
             Moul.
             
          
           
             I
             denie
             that
             ,
             
               to
               do
               this
               ,
            
             signifies
             to
             sacrifice
             .
          
        
         
           
             Gont.
             
          
           
             This
             word
             ,
             
               Do
               ,
            
             is
             referred
             to
             his
             body
             .
          
        
         
           
             Du
             Moul.
             
          
           
             Suppose
             it
             were
             so
             ;
             yet
             to
             
               do
            
             his
             body
             is
             not
             to
             sacrifice
             it
             .
          
        
         
           
             Gont.
             
          
           
             In
             the
             26.
             of
             Saint
             
               Mathew
            
             it
             is
             said
             that
             the
             bloud
             of
             Christ
             is
             shed
             for
             the
             remission
             of
             sinnes
             ,
             now
             where
             the
             bloud
             of
             Christ
             is
             shed
             there
             is
             a
             sacrifice
             ;
             and
             all
             that
             is
             auaileable
             to
             the
             remission
             of
             sinnes
             is
             a
             sacrifice
             .
          
        
         
           
             Du
             Moul.
             
          
           
             That
             I
             denie
             :
             if
             it
             were
             so
             ,
             Baptisme
             should
             be
             a
             sacrifice
             seeing
             that
             that
             also
             is
             auailable
             for
             the
             remission
             of
             sinnes
             :
             nor
             is
             it
             true
             ,
             that
             wheresoeuer
             any
             bloud
             is
             shed
             for
             the
             remission
             of
             sin
             ,
             there
             should
             of
             necessitie
             be
             a
             sacrifice
             ,
             except
             this
             bloud
             be
             offered
             to
             God
             ,
             for
             without
             this
             it
             is
             no
             sacrifice
             :
             Also
             it
             is
             requisite
             that
             this
             shedding
             of
             bloud
             be
             made
             by
             death
             ,
             but
             in
             the
             Eucharist
             you
             cannot
             shew
             me
             ,
             either
             that
             this
             bloud
             is
             offered
             vnto
             God
             ,
             or
             that
             this
             shedding
             of
             bloud
             is
             made
             by
             death
             .
          
        
         
           
             Gont.
             
          
           
             In
             the
             26.
             of
             
               Mathew
            
             it
             is
             expressely
             said
             that
             the
             bloud
             of
             Christ
             is
             :
             and
             withall
             hee
             went
             to
             write
             this
             argument
             the
             bloud
             shed
             which
             is
             ioined
             with
             death
             ,
             is
             a
             sacrifice
             ,
             but
             the
             bloud
             shed
             in
             the
             sacrament
             is
             ioined
             with
             death
             ,
             therefore
             it
             is
             a
             sacrifice
             .
          
        
         
           
             Du
             Moul.
             
          
           
             You
             take
             that
             for
             granted
             which
             you
             are
             to
             proue
             ,
             to
             wit
             ,
             that
             the
             bloud
             which
             you
             say
             to
             haue
             been
             shed
             in
             the
             Sacrament
             hath
             beene
             offered
             vnto
             God
             ;
             Secondly
             I
             answere
             ,
             that
             you
             doe
             fallaciously
             adde
             this
             same
             word
             ,
             Ioine
             ,
             to
             that
             which
             I
             haue
             said
             :
             that
             in
             the
             26.
             of
             
               Mathew
            
             it
             is
             truly
             said
             of
             the
             shedding
             of
             bloud
             which
             by
             nature
             is
             ioined
             with
             death
             ,
             But
             I
             say
             that
             when
             the
             very
             bloud
             of
             Christ
             is
             really
             
             shed
             in
             the
             Sacrament
             ,
             yet
             it
             is
             neuerthelesse
             not
             shed
             by
             death
             .
          
        
         
           
             Gont.
             
          
           
             By
             this
             answere
             you
             seeme
             to
             allow
             of
             my
             Maior
             .
          
        
         
           
             Du
             Moul.
             
          
           
             You
             speake
             nothing
             ,
             neither
             haue
             you
             produced
             any
             thing
             yet
             ,
             to
             proue
             that
             Iesus
             Christ
             hath
             offered
             his
             bloud
             to
             God
             in
             the
             Eucharist
             .
          
        
         
           
             Gont.
             
          
           
             I
             haue
             proued
             it
             sufficiently
             ,
             I
             need
             not
             proue
             it
             againe
             .
          
        
         
           
             Du
             Moul.
             
          
           
             Proue
             this
             ,
             or
             confesse
             that
             you
             cannot
             .
          
        
         
           
             Gont.
          
           Gontier
           hereupon
           tooke
           his
           pen
           and
           writ
           as
           followes
           :
           The
           bloud
           shed
           for
           the
           remission
           of
           sinnes
           is
           contained
           in
           the
           institution
           of
           the
           Eucharist
           :
           in
           the
           26.
           
           Chap.
           28.
           verse
           of
           Saint
           
             Mathew
             .
          
        
         
           
             Du
             Moul.
             
          
           
             This
             doth
             not
             enforce
             at
             all
             ,
             that
             Iesus
             Christ
             did
             offer
             his
             bloud
             vnto
             God
             in
             the
             Eucharist
             .
          
        
         
           
             Gont.
          
           Hereupon
           after
           some
           silence
           ,
           and
           complainte
           of
           the
           Ladies
           ,
           desiring
           vs
           to
           conferre
           about
           some
           other
           matter
           ,
           at
           last
           
             Gontier
          
           stood
           vp
           vpon
           his
           legges
           ,
           and
           framed
           an
           argument
           ;
           which
           he
           would
           not
           write
           ,
           but
           
             Du
             Moulin
          
           writ
           it
           as
           he
           told
           it
           him
           :
           the
           argument
           was
           this
           ,
           The
           bloud
           of
           Iesus
           Christ
           which
           is
           shed
           for
           the
           remission
           of
           sinnes
           ,
           must
           of
           necessitie
           be
           offered
           vnto
           God
           ,
           but
           in
           the
           institution
           of
           the
           Eucharist
           contained
           in
           26
           Chapt.
           28.
           verse
           of
           Saint
           
             Mathew
          
           the
           bloud
           is
           shed
           for
           the
           remission
           of
           sinnes
           ,
           therefore
           it
           must
           needes
           be
           offered
           vnto
           God.
           
        
         
           
             Du
             Moul.
             
          
           
             I
             denie
             that
             the
             maior
             proposition
             is
             alwaies
             true
             ,
             for
             should
             the
             very
             bloud
             of
             Christ
             Iesus
             be
             shed
             in
             that
             same
             action
             of
             the
             Eucharist
             ,
             it
             would
             not
             follow
             ,
             that
             it
             were
             offered
             vnto
             God
             for
             a
             sacrifice
             :
             for
             it
             might
             be
             offered
             or
             presented
             to
             the
             Communicants
             ,
             and
             not
             vnto
             God
             :
             It
             is
             sufficient
             that
             he
             hath
             beene
             offered
             on
             the
             crosse
             :
             As
             for
             the
             second
             proposition
             ,
             I
             acknowledge
             that
             the
             bloud
             of
             Iesus
             Christ
             was
             shed
             ,
             
             but
             vpon
             the
             crosse
             :
             Saint
             
               Mathew
            
             saith
             truly
             that
             the
             bloud
             of
             the
             Lord
             is
             shed
             ,
             but
             hee
             meanes
             vpon
             the
             crosse
             ;
             as
             the
             Romish
             Bible
             witnesseth
             ;
             and
             the
             very
             Masse
             ,
             which
             turne
             it
             in
             the
             future
             ,
             
               effundetz
               ,
            
             that
             the
             bloud
             of
             the
             Lord
             shall
             be
             shed
             ,
             I
             aske
             of
             Mr.
             Doctour
             whether
             he
             will
             renounce
             his
             Bible
             ,
             and
             his
             Masse
             .
          
        
         
           
             Gont.
             Gontier
          
           taking
           pen
           and
           inke
           to
           answere
           blotted
           out
           part
           of
           that
           which
           
             Du
             Moulin
          
           had
           writ
           ;
           
             Du
             Moulin
          
           complained
           thereof
           ,
           and
           shewed
           it
           to
           the
           companie
           ,
           
             Gontier
          
           exeused
           himselfe
           ,
           and
           said
           he
           did
           it
           vnwittingly
           ,
           afterward
           he
           began
           to
           write
           these
           words
           
             this
             offring
             cannot
             be
             made
             vnto
             the
             people
             .
          
           Afterward
           he
           paused
           vpon
           it
           ,
           and
           blotted
           out
           that
           which
           he
           had
           written
           ;
           then
           passing
           that
           ouer
           ,
           he
           posts
           to
           the
           second
           article
           of
           
             Du
             Moulins
          
           answere
           ;
           who
           required
           him
           to
           answere
           to
           the
           first
           article
           :
           
             Gontier
          
           answered
           that
           he
           would
           not
           answere
           to
           it
           at
           all
           :
           and
           that
           in
           his
           answering
           he
           would
           haue
           to
           do
           with
           those
           parts
           which
           hee
           thought
           most
           feeblest
           :
           
             Du
             Moulin
          
           prest
           him
           againe
           ,
           saying
           that
           his
           conclusion
           was
           weake
           ,
           whilest
           that
           one
           of
           his
           propositions
           remained
           still
           denied
           :
           
             Gontier
          
           refused
           againe
           :
           Some
           that
           sate
           there
           comming
           vnto
           him
           ,
           whilst
           he
           did
           thus
           delay
           ,
           vrged
           him
           vnto
           it
           ,
           yet
           he
           persisted
           in
           his
           refusall
           ;
           but
           vppon
           the
           second
           article
           he
           said
           ,
           that
           
             Du
             Monlin
          
           denied
           his
           owne
           Bible
           ;
           which
           saith
           ,
           
             is
             shed
             ,
          
           and
           not
           
             shall
             be
             shedde
             .
          
        
         
           
             Du
             Moul.
          
           Answered
           that
           our
           translation
           was
           turned
           faithfully
           according
           to
           the
           Greeke
           ,
           and
           that
           this
           did
           proue
           nothing
           ,
           but
           that
           the
           exposition
           of
           the
           Romish
           Church
           which
           the
           bibles
           approued
           by
           the
           counsell
           of
           Trent
           and
           the
           Masse
           it selfe
           doth
           carry
           ,
           is
           false
           .
        
         
           
             Gont.
             Gontier
          
           then
           made
           one
           of
           
             Robert
             Stephens
          
           Greeke
           Testaments
           be
           brought
           vnto
           him
           ,
           and
           for
           to
           weaken
           the
           authoritie
           of
           the
           Greeke
           text
           said
           that
           many
           things
           there
           had
           beene
           changed
           ,
           and
           that
           at
           the
           end
           
           of
           the
           booke
           there
           was
           a
           table
           of
           more
           then
           fiue
           hundred
           seuerall
           readings
           .
        
         
           
             Du
             Moul.
          
           Answered
           that
           these
           diuers
           readings
           did
           not
           alter
           the
           sense
           at
           all
           ;
           that
           all
           this
           inueighing
           against
           the
           originall
           of
           the
           new-testament
           did
           not
           help
           him
           a
           iot
           to
           proue
           that
           which
           as
           yet
           he
           could
           not
           proue
           :
           to
           wit
           ,
           that
           Iesus
           Christ
           offered
           vp
           his
           bloud
           to
           God
           in
           the
           Eucharist
           ,
           and
           he
           called
           vpon
           
             Gontier
          
           to
           proue
           it
           ,
           
             Gontier
          
           continuing
           in
           denying
           to
           proue
           it
           to
           him
           ,
           and
           the
           disputation
           being
           there
           at
           a
           stay
           ,
           all
           the
           Ladies
           to
           gratifie
           him
           entreated
           them
           to
           talke
           of
           some
           other
           subiect
           ,
           and
           said
           that
           this
           matter
           was
           to
           deepe
           for
           their
           capacities
           .
        
         
           
             A
             new
             matter
             proposed
             .
          
           
             ONe
             of
             the
             Ladies
             therefore
             requested
             that
             these
             words
             might
             be
             expounded
             ,
             
               This
               is
               my
               body
               .
               Du
               Moulin
               .
            
             Answered
             and
             said
             :
             That
             no
             man
             doubted
             of
             the
             truth
             of
             these
             words
             ,
             and
             that
             wee
             should
             beleeue
             the
             Scripture
             according
             to
             the
             exposition
             that
             it
             carries
             of
             it selfe
             :
             that
             these
             words
             ,
             
               This
               is
               my
               body
               ,
            
             were
             thus
             expounded
             by
             the
             Apostle
             Saint
             
               Paul
               1.
               
               Cor.
               10.
               chap.
               16.
               vers
               .
               The
               bread
               which
               wee
               breake
               is
               the
               communion
               of
               the
               body
               of
               Christ
               ;
            
             An
             exposition
             which
             the
             Church
             of
             Rome
             doth
             reiect
             ,
             not
             beleeuing
             at
             all
             that
             it
             is
             bread
             ,
             nor
             that
             we
             breake
             bread
             ;
             nor
             that
             this
             bread
             so
             broken
             is
             the
             communion
             of
             the
             body
             of
             Christ
             ,
             seeing
             that
             it
             is
             his
             very
             body
             :
             Hereunto
             adde
             ,
             that
             the
             Euangelists
             do
             with
             a
             ioint
             consent
             witnesse
             ,
             that
             Iesus
             Christ
             broke
             bread
             and
             gaue
             it
             :
             
               He
               tooke
               bread
               broke
               it
               ,
               and
               gaue
               it
               :
            
             Therewith
             the
             Church
             of
             Rome
             ,
             
             denies
             ,
             not
             beleeuing
             that
             hee
             gaue
             bread
             :
             Nay
             which
             is
             more
             ,
             it
             denies
             these
             words
             ;
             
               This
               is
               my
               body
               :
            
             For
             seeing
             the
             word
             ,
             
               This
               ,
            
             signifies
             that
             which
             
               he
               gaue
               ,
            
             and
             seeing
             that
             he
             gaue
             bread
             ,
             the
             sense
             of
             these
             words
             ,
             
               This
               is
               my
               body
               ,
            
             is
             ,
             
               This
               bread
               is
               my
               body
               ,
            
             the
             which
             the
             Church
             of
             Rome
             denies
             .
          
           
             
               Gontier
            
             on
             the
             contrarie
             opposed
             against
             this
             ,
             that
             Saint
             
               Paul
            
             had
             said
             in
             the
             Eucharist
             ,
             that
             the
             body
             of
             our
             Lord
             is
             broken
             for
             vs
             :
             that
             the
             bread
             whereof
             hee
             speakes
             ,
             saying
             
               The
               bread
               which
               we
               breake
               is
               his
               flesh
               ,
            
             as
             it
             is
             said
             in
             the
             sixt
             of
             Saint
             
               Iohn
               ,
               The
               bread
               which
               I
               will
               giue
               is
               my
               flesh
               .
            
          
           
             
               Du
               Moul.
            
             Replied
             and
             said
             that
             herein
             
               Gontier
            
             contradicted
             the
             Church
             of
             Rome
             ,
             which
             doth
             not
             beleeue
             at
             all
             ,
             that
             the
             Lords
             body
             is
             broken
             in
             the
             Eucharist
             ,
             and
             asked
             of
             
               Gontier
            
             whether
             he
             would
             subscribe
             to
             this
             :
             That
             the
             Church
             of
             Rome
             doth
             beleeue
             that
             the
             body
             of
             the
             Lord
             is
             broken
             in
             the
             Eucharist
             :
             that
             
               Gontier
            
             by
             this
             word
             ,
             Bread
             ,
             meaning
             the
             body
             of
             Christ
             makes
             the
             words
             of
             Saint
             
               Paul
            
             ridiculous
             ,
             making
             him
             to
             say
             ,
             that
             ,
             
               the
               body
               of
               Christ
               ,
               which
               wee
               breake
               ,
               is
               the
               communion
               of
               the
               body
               of
               Christ
               .
            
             That
             in
             that
             place
             of
             Saint
             
               Iohn
            
             he
             speakes
             not
             at
             all
             of
             the
             Eucharist
             ,
             but
             promiseth
             to
             yeeld
             himselfe
             vnto
             death
             ,
             as
             he
             makes
             manifest
             by
             the
             words
             following
             :
             
               The
               bread
               which
               I
               will
               giue
               ,
               is
               my
               flesh
               which
               I
               will
               giue
               for
               the
               life
               of
               the
               world
               ,
            
             now
             he
             did
             not
             giue
             himselfe
             for
             the
             life
             of
             the
             world
             ,
             but
             in
             his
             death
             .
          
           
             
               Gont.
            
             Hereunto
             
               Gontier
            
             answered
             nothing
             ,
             but
             only
             this
             ,
             that
             these
             words
             ,
             
               I
               will
               giue
               ,
            
             being
             twise
             repeated
             were
             taken
             in
             two
             seuerall
             significations
             .
             Afterward
             being
             required
             to
             subscribe
             ,
             that
             the
             Church
             of
             Rome
             doth
             beleeue
             that
             the
             body
             of
             Christ
             is
             broken
             in
             the
             Sacrament
             ;
             He
             tooke
             paper
             and
             writ
             :
             
               Christ
               hath
               broken
               his
               body
               in
               the
               Eucharist
               :
            
             Saint
             
               Paul
               :
               1.
               
               Cor.
            
             11.
             
             
               vers
               .
            
             14.
             which
             was
             not
             that
             which
             was
             demanded
             of
             him
             :
             Hereupon
             being
             required
             to
             speake
             his
             minde
             freely
             ,
             and
             tell
             in
             his
             conscience
             ,
             whether
             he
             thought
             the
             Apostle
             Saint
             
               Paul
            
             did
             speake
             truth
             ,
             saying
             ,
             that
             we
             breake
             bread
             :
             He
             answered
             flatly
             that
             he
             would
             answere
             no
             more
             then
             he
             had
             done
             alreadie
             ;
             which
             moued
             one
             of
             the
             Gentlemen
             that
             sate
             by
             (
             Master
             
               Paupart
            
             by
             name
             )
             who
             came
             in
             at
             the
             latter
             end
             of
             the
             conference
             ,
             to
             say
             vnto
             him
             ,
             wee
             haue
             brought
             our
             eares
             but
             it
             seemes
             you
             want
             a
             mouth
             .
          
           
             This
             done
             
               Gontier
            
             being
             prest
             a
             new
             ,
             to
             proue
             ,
             that
             Iesus
             Christ
             hath
             offered
             his
             bloud
             to
             God
             in
             the
             Eucharist
             ,
             forsooke
             the
             battaile
             ,
             and
             being
             ashamed
             of
             himselfe
             ,
             and
             cleane
             out
             of
             heart
             retired
             into
             one
             of
             the
             corners
             of
             the
             chamber
             ,
             where
             being
             all
             alone
             he
             falls
             a
             writing
             what
             he
             thought
             best
             in
             a
             paper
             apart
             ,
             which
             when
             he
             had
             shewed
             vpon
             the
             table
             ,
             a
             little
             after
             hee
             toare
             in
             peeces
             snatching
             it
             out
             of
             the
             handes
             of
             my
             Lady
             of
             
               Liembrune
            
             who
             was
             willing
             to
             haue
             kept
             it
             .
          
           
             He
             therefore
             giuing
             roome
             my
             Lady
             Baronesse
             of
             
               Salignac
            
             succeeded
             in
             his
             place
             .
          
        
         
           
             The
             vpshot
             of
             the
             conference
             .
          
           
             MY
             Ladies
             discourse
             tended
             to
             this
             end
             :
             I
             haue
             (
             said
             she
             )
             withdrawne
             my selfe
             from
             the
             religion
             wherein
             I
             was
             bred
             ,
             after
             I
             came
             once
             to
             the
             through
             discussing
             of
             the
             cause
             ;
             I
             haue
             spent
             foure
             whole
             yeares
             in
             sounding
             of
             this
             ;
             I
             haue
             looked
             vpon
             all
             the
             Fathers
             Latine
             and
             Greeke
             ,
             I
             kept
             a
             man
             of
             purpose
             to
             translate
             them
             ;
             I
             haue
             found
             that
             the
             Fathers
             of
             the
             foure
             first
             ages
             are
             conformable
             in
             all
             things
             to
             the
             faith
             of
             the
             Church
             of
             Rome
             ,
             hereupon
             I
             was
             confirmed
             in
             mine
             
             opinion
             ,
             and
             my
             conuersation
             hath
             turned
             diuerse
             others
             .
          
           
             
               Du
               Moul.
            
             Said
             ,
             Madame
             since
             you
             vnderstand
             that
             which
             you
             do
             so
             well
             ,
             giue
             me
             leaue
             to
             aske
             you
             ,
             if
             you
             do
             not
             call
             vpon
             the
             
               Virgine
               Mary
               ,
            
             and
             if
             the
             forme
             of
             your
             praier
             ,
             wherein
             you
             call
             vpon
             her
             ,
             be
             not
             
               Aue
               Maria
               &c.
            
             yes
             said
             she
             :
             Then
             
               Du
               Moulin
            
             said
             vnto
             her
             ,
             you
             do
             not
             therefore
             vnderstand
             what
             you
             do
             ,
             for
             by
             speaking
             thus
             you
             thinke
             you
             pray
             to
             the
             Virgine
             
               Mary
               ,
            
             but
             indeed
             you
             pray
             vnto
             God
             for
             her
             ,
             saying
             vnto
             her
             ,
             
               Mary
            
             the
             Lord
             protect
             thee
             ,
             the
             Lord
             bee
             with
             thee
             &c.
             
             Also
             Madam
             ,
             I
             thinke
             you
             haue
             not
             forgot
             the
             causes
             ,
             which
             moued
             you
             to
             this
             change
             .
             For
             example
             can
             you
             shew
             vs
             any
             places
             of
             the
             Scripture
             ,
             wherein
             wee
             are
             commaunded
             to
             paint
             God
             ,
             and
             to
             make
             carued
             images
             of
             the
             trinitie
             in
             stone
             :
             The
             Lady
             answered
             that
             she
             would
             not
             take
             vpon
             her
             to
             prooue
             that
             in
             the
             presence
             of
             a
             Doctour
             :
             
               Du
               Moulin
            
             then
             shewed
             her
             the
             4.
             
             Chapter
             of
             
               Deuteron
               .
            
             at
             the
             15.
             vers
             .
             and
             following
             ,
             where
             God
             forbids
             any
             image
             to
             bee
             made
             like
             vnto
             him
             ;
             She
             on
             the
             contrary
             alleaged
             the
             images
             of
             the
             Cherubins
             ;
             But
             
               Du
               Moulin
            
             told
             her
             that
             she
             spake
             of
             the
             images
             of
             God
             ,
             and
             that
             a
             Cherubin
             was
             no
             God.
             
          
           
             As
             for
             the
             images
             of
             Creatures
             ,
             he
             asked
             her
             ,
             if
             since
             her
             change
             of
             religion
             ,
             she
             had
             seene
             any
             commaundement
             of
             God
             for
             the
             worshipping
             of
             creatures
             images
             :
             
               Gontier
            
             did
             releeue
             her
             a
             farre
             of
             ,
             crying
             out
             of
             his
             corner
             where
             he
             was
             retired
             ;
             Madame
             ,
             instance
             in
             the
             brasen
             Serpent
             ,
             being
             the
             image
             of
             Christ
             ,
             who
             was
             both
             God
             and
             man
             ,
             tell
             him
             withall
             ,
             that
             there
             was
             sacrifice
             and
             incense
             offered
             before
             the
             Cherubins
             .
          
           
             
               Du
               Moul.
            
             Answered
             that
             the
             brasen
             Serpent
             ,
             was
             no
             image
             of
             Iesus
             Christ
             ,
             but
             a
             figure
             of
             his
             office
             ,
             and
             sauing
             vertue
             ;
             that
             suppose
             it
             were
             his
             image
             ,
             yet
             it
             was
             
             not
             an
             image
             of
             his
             diuinitie
             :
             that
             he
             could
             neuer
             find
             that
             the
             Israelites
             did
             worship
             it
             ,
             but
             that
             they
             were
             taxed
             for
             idolatrie
             :
             and
             lastly
             that
             there
             was
             neuer
             any
             sacrifice
             or
             incense
             offered
             vp
             before
             the
             Cherubins
             ,
             there
             being
             alwaies
             a
             vaile
             interposed
             .
             Shee
             heereupon
             had
             recourse
             againe
             to
             the
             Fathers
             ;
             affirming
             that
             shee
             had
             read
             them
             all
             .
             
               Du
               Moulin
            
             tolde
             her
             that
             it
             was
             impossible
             ,
             first
             in
             respect
             of
             the
             multitude
             of
             bookes
             ,
             and
             then
             because
             of
             the
             difficultie
             therof
             to
             her
             ,
             which
             vnderstood
             neither
             Greeke
             nor
             Latine
             .
             That
             twenty
             yeares
             were
             too
             little
             for
             him
             to
             doe
             it
             :
             and
             that
             shee
             must
             needes
             aske
             twice
             as
             long
             :
             Hee
             entreated
             her
             to
             name
             some
             Father
             among
             others
             ,
             which
             shee
             had
             read
             :
             shee
             named
             
               Chrysostome
            
             for
             an
             example
             .
             
               Du
               Moulin
            
             said
             ,
             praie
             Madam
             shew
             me
             but
             one
             place
             in
             him
             which
             you
             doe
             best
             vnderstand
             :
             then
             she
             strained
             courtesie
             ,
             saying
             that
             being
             as
             she
             was
             a
             mother
             of
             a
             family
             ,
             she
             could
             not
             be
             wholly
             at
             leisure
             :
             Afterwards
             she
             brought
             foorth
             a
             whole
             bedroll
             of
             the
             Fathers
             ,
             wherein
             shee
             tooke
             the
             Greeke
             for
             the
             Latine
             ,
             saying
             that
             
               Tertullian
            
             was
             the
             disciple
             of
             the
             Apostles
             ;
             that
             
               Cyprian
            
             was
             his
             disciple
             in
             the
             150.
             yeare
             of
             our
             Lord
             ,
             for
             which
             shee
             was
             taken
             vp
             by
             
               Gontier
            
             which
             heard
             it
             a
             farre
             off
             .
             Who
             raising
             himselfe
             vp
             ,
             gently
             tooke
             his
             leaue
             of
             the
             company
             :
             
               Du
               Moulin
            
             told
             him
             as
             he
             was
             going
             foorth
             ,
             that
             if
             we
             were
             castawayes
             and
             damned
             creatures
             ,
             as
             they
             reported
             ,
             they
             should
             then
             by
             the
             lawes
             of
             Ch●istian
             charity
             haue
             compassion
             vpon
             vs
             :
             and
             I
             am
             amazed
             that
             you
             which
             heere
             shew
             your selfe
             to
             bee
             of
             so
             yeelding
             a
             nature
             ,
             should
             yet
             neuerthelesse
             preach
             bloud
             and
             sedition
             (
             as
             all
             those
             tell
             me
             which
             goe
             to
             heare
             you
             )
             
               Gontier
            
             answered
             ,
             you
             are
             misinformed
             :
             I
             haue
             giuen
             an
             accoun●
             to
             the
             King
             for
             that
             which
             I
             did
             ,
             I
             would
             hazard
             my
             life
             for
             your
             good
             ;
             After
             some
             complement
             the
             company
             departed
             .
             Two
             
             dayes
             after
             ,
             my
             Lord
             of
             
               Liembrune
            
             meeting
             with
             the
             same
             Ladies
             in
             Saint
             
               Nicholas
               des
               Chamans
               ,
            
             hee
             enquired
             of
             them
             what
             the
             reason
             was
             that
             father
             
               Gontier
            
             was
             so
             astonished
             ,
             and
             did
             stay
             at
             a
             st●nd
             in
             his
             answering
             ,
             who
             sayd
             that
             (
             as
             he
             himselfe
             told
             them
             )
             he
             did
             this
             to
             cheere
             vp
             my
             Lady
             of
             
               Liembrune
            
             who
             wept
             for
             feare
             he
             should
             else
             haue
             afflicted
             her
             a
             new
             .
          
        
      
       
         
           PETER
           DV
           MOVLINS
           ANSWER
           TO
           THE
           Letters
           of
           M.
           
             Gontier
             written
             to
             the
             King
             ,
             concerning
             the
          
           Subiect
           of
           this
           Conference
           .
        
         
           SInce
           the
           religion
           of
           Rome
           is
           become
           a
           marchandize
           ,
           they
           which
           teach
           it
           study
           how
           to
           put
           trickes
           vpon
           men
           ,
           but
           they
           doe
           them
           so
           slouenly
           ,
           and
           performe
           them
           with
           so
           little
           slight
           ,
           that
           (
           as
           it
           seems
           )
           they
           are
           willing
           to
           do
           vs
           a
           pleasure
           in
           disgracing
           themselues
           ;
           The
           letters
           of
           Monsieur
           
             Gontier
          
           vpon
           this
           subiect
           shew
           this
           which
           I
           say
           to
           be
           true
           ;
           wherin
           he
           bragges
           of
           the
           conuersion
           of
           my
           Lady
           of
           
             Mazancourt
             ,
          
           as
           the
           prize
           of
           his
           victorie
           ;
           though
           she
           in
           the
           yeare
           1596.
           in
           the
           moneth
           of
           
             Iune
             ,
          
           
           in
           the
           Church
           of
           
             Sechelles
          
           publikely
           forswore
           our
           religion
           on
           her
           marriage
           day
           ,
           and
           protested
           that
           she
           would
           liue
           in
           the
           Church
           of
           Rome
           :
           and
           neuer
           since
           hath
           she
           turned
           to
           vs
           ,
           or
           made
           any
           shew
           of
           professing
           our
           religion
           .
           See
           then
           what
           a
           new
           conquest
           here
           is
           ,
           he
           hath
           spoiled
           vs
           of
           that
           which
           wee
           neuer
           had
           ,
           hee
           hath
           killed
           a
           person
           already
           dead
           ,
           hee
           hath
           made
           a
           Lady
           forsweare
           our
           religion
           ,
           which
           had
           done
           it
           a
           douzen
           yeres
           before
           ;
           and
           gained
           so
           excellent
           a
           victory
           ,
           to
           the
           end
           the
           people
           should
           say
           ,
           
             This
             was
             done
             by
             the
             dexterity
             of
             venerable
             Father
             Gontier
             :
          
           Not
           vnlike
           him
           ,
           who
           hauing
           bought
           an
           hare
           ,
           tied
           it
           with
           a
           chaine
           vnto
           his
           saddle
           bow
           ,
           that
           so
           the
           people
           might
           say
           ,
           this
           is
           the
           hare
           which
           hee
           hath
           taken
           ;
           which
           opinion
           makes
           the
           dish
           to
           rellish
           the
           better
           :
           These
           Doctors
           could
           neuer
           yet
           catch
           any
           ,
           but
           such
           like
           preyes
           as
           these
           :
           Shee
           surely
           is
           a
           Lady
           of
           honor
           ,
           whose
           person
           &
           family
           I
           reuerence
           ,
           yet
           she
           neuerthelesse
           ,
           either
           to
           gratifie
           her
           husband
           ,
           or
           els
           through
           simplicity
           ,
           had
           willingly
           forsaken
           the
           truth
           before
           our
           conference
           :
           In
           which
           she
           was
           so
           farre
           from
           profiting
           any
           thing
           ,
           that
           whilst
           it
           was
           a
           doing
           ,
           she
           often
           professed
           that
           she
           did
           not
           listen
           to
           that
           which
           was
           said
           ,
           nay
           more
           then
           this
           ;
           since
           that
           hath
           she
           written
           letters
           to
           my
           Lady
           of
           
             Liembrune
          
           her
           sister
           ,
           where
           she
           speaks
           thus
           ;
           I
           was
           not
           in
           any
           manner
           in
           the
           world
           instructed
           ,
           because
           the
           points
           ,
           which
           
             Du
             Moulin
          
           proposed
           to
           bee
           discussed
           ,
           were
           aboue
           the
           reach
           of
           my
           vnderstanding
           :
           A
           little
           after
           she
           saith
           ,
           that
           when
           the
           conference
           was
           done
           ,
           shee
           went
           to
           consult
           with
           Father
           
             Gontier
             ,
          
           who
           shewed
           her
           all
           the
           Fathers
           of
           the
           first
           600.
           yeares
           to
           bee
           on
           his
           side
           ;
           where
           as
           (
           shee
           reports
           )
           shee
           hath
           found
           true
           saluation
           ,
           that
           heereupon
           she
           hath
           fixt
           her
           resolution
           .
        
         
           But
           if
           Master
           
             Gontier
          
           behaued
           himselfe
           so
           manfully
           as
           hee
           sayes
           ,
           without
           shewing
           how
           ;
           how
           comes
           it
           then
           to
           passe
           ,
           that
           the
           Ladies
           there
           present
           were
           faine
           to
           excuse
           
           him
           to
           Monsieur
           de
           
             Liembrune
             ,
          
           for
           bearing
           himselfe
           so
           dastardly
           in
           the
           fight
           ,
           saying
           that
           he
           did
           this
           to
           comfort
           my
           Lady
           of
           
             Liembrune
          
           which
           wept
           ?
           why
           was
           I
           constrained
           to
           turne
           for
           him
           to
           a
           passage
           of
           Scripture
           which
           hee
           could
           not
           finde
           ?
           why
           did
           he
           stand
           so
           many
           times
           so
           long
           ,
           together
           without
           speaking
           a
           word
           ?
           why
           (
           he
           being
           at
           a
           non-plus
           ,
           and
           not
           able
           to
           iustifie
           the
           authority
           of
           Bishops
           for
           the
           ordaining
           of
           sacrificing
           Priests
           )
           was
           I
           forced
           to
           change
           my
           question
           ,
           for
           to
           gratifie
           him
           ?
           why
           did
           hee
           withdraw
           himselfe
           out
           of
           my
           presence
           to
           hide
           himselfe
           in
           a
           corner
           ?
           why
           did
           hee
           blot
           out
           that
           which
           I
           had
           written
           ?
           why
           did
           he
           teare
           the
           papers
           which
           himselfe
           had
           written
           ?
           whereof
           I
           can
           yet
           for
           aneede
           produce
           some
           peeces
           :
           And
           note
           that
           he
           tooke
           mee
           vnawares
           then
           ,
           when
           I
           thought
           of
           nothing
           lesse
           then
           conferring
           with
           him
           ;
           but
           hee
           came
           prepared
           and
           furnished
           with
           bookes
           hauing
           agreed
           on
           this
           conference
           before
           hand
           with
           the
           Ladies
           ;
           I
           am
           also
           giuen
           to
           vnderstand
           by
           the
           report
           of
           men
           worthy
           of
           credit
           ,
           that
           a
           few
           daies
           after
           the
           conference
           ,
           
             Gontier
          
           dining
           with
           my
           Lord
           the
           Prince
           of
           
             Conde
             ,
          
           and
           my
           Lord
           the
           Duke
           of
           
             Espernon
             ,
          
           that
           the
           Prince
           askt
           
             Gontier
          
           as
           concerning
           this
           matter
           ,
           telling
           him
           there
           went
           a
           speech
           abroad
           thereof
           which
           tended
           little
           to
           his
           praise
           ;
           and
           that
           the
           sayd
           Iesuite
           imputed
           his
           little
           resistance
           to
           the
           great
           noise
           there
           was
           made
           :
           but
           especially
           to
           the
           earnest
           entreatie
           of
           an
           aduocate
           ;
           yet
           there
           was
           no
           aduocate
           nor
           anie
           stirre
           ,
           but
           onelie
           towards
           the
           latter
           end
           ,
           the
           three
           first
           houres
           being
           past
           ouer
           with
           a
           great
           silence
           ,
           euerie
           one
           looking
           that
           Master
           
             Gontier
          
           should
           speake
           ,
           whilst
           hee
           did
           nothing
           but
           turne
           the
           leaues
           of
           his
           Concordance
           ,
           and
           made
           as
           though
           he
           did
           write
           .
        
         
           Now
           to
           iustifie
           this
           which
           I
           speake
           to
           bee
           true
           ,
           I
           call
           the
           assistants
           for
           witnesses
           which
           sate
           there
           from
           the
           beginning
           to
           the
           end
           ,
           and
           God
           knowes
           that
           in
           the
           discourse
           
           which
           I
           haue
           published
           ,
           I
           haue
           dealt
           as
           faithfully
           as
           I
           cold
           possible
           ,
           hauing
           shew'd
           it
           ready
           writen
           to
           those
           which
           were
           present
           at
           it
           ;
           to
           the
           end
           that
           if
           I
           had
           forgotten
           my selfe
           in
           any
           thing
           ,
           they
           should
           correct
           what
           was
           amisse
           ;
           yea
           I
           haue
           yet
           some
           part
           of
           Mr.
           
             Gontiers
          
           arguments
           written
           with
           his
           owne
           hand
           ,
           of
           the
           which
           hee
           doth
           not
           so
           much
           as
           repeat
           one
           word
           in
           his
           letter
           ;
           wherein
           he
           reduces
           our
           conference
           to
           a
           douzen
           lines
           ,
           not
           for
           breuities
           sake
           ,
           for
           he
           breakes
           out
           into
           other
           vnprofitable
           discourses
           ,
           but
           by
           an
           apparant
           shift
           :
           for
           in
           our
           conference
           there
           were
           two
           points
           aboue
           others
           that
           we
           chiefely
           handled
           :
           one
           ,
           whether
           Bishops
           were
           authorized
           from
           God
           to
           establish
           Sacrificers
           for
           to
           sacrifice
           Iesus
           Christ
           :
           the
           other
           ,
           whether
           it
           could
           possibly
           be
           prooued
           that
           Iesus
           Christ
           did
           offer
           vp
           his
           bloud
           to
           God
           in
           the
           Eucharist
           :
           because
           ,
           that
           although
           his
           bloud
           were
           really
           shedde
           ,
           yet
           it
           is
           not
           a
           sacrifice
           if
           the
           bloud
           be
           not
           offered
           vnto
           God.
           
        
         
           These
           two
           points
           beeing
           of
           such
           importance
           ,
           how
           comes
           it
           to
           passe
           that
           Mr.
           
             Gontier
          
           writing
           to
           the
           King
           ,
           doth
           not
           satisfie
           them
           ,
           nor
           so
           much
           as
           mention
           a
           word
           of
           them
           at
           all
           ?
           did
           he
           thinke
           his
           Maiesty
           vnworthy
           to
           be
           throughly
           informed
           in
           the
           truth
           of
           the
           matter
           ?
           or
           why
           doth
           he
           frustrate
           the
           people
           of
           this
           their
           expectation
           .
           And
           if
           in
           the
           conference
           hee
           had
           not
           a
           word
           to
           speake
           heereupon
           ,
           why
           doth
           he
           not
           yet
           repaire
           his
           credit
           heerein
           by
           his
           writings
           vpon
           farther
           studie
           ?
           why
           is
           he
           so
           loth
           to
           speake
           anie
           more
           of
           the
           passage
           in
           Saint
           
             Cyprian
             ,
          
           which
           is
           in
           the
           9.
           
           Epist
           .
           of
           the
           first
           booke
           alleadged
           by
           my
           Ladie
           Baronnesse
           of
           
             Salignac
             ,
          
           doth
           hee
           not
           perceiue
           by
           this
           that
           he
           hath
           spoken
           nothing
           worth
           the
           considering
           ,
           but
           that
           a
           ladie
           hath
           spoken
           that
           which
           deserues
           to
           be
           weighed
           ?
           Nay
           ,
           he
           shewes
           that
           he
           neuer
           read
           the
           place
           ,
           seeing
           that
           he
           produceth
           it
           so
           disguised
           ,
           and
           which
           is
           more
           ,
           saies
           in
           the
           margent
           of
           his
           booke
           
           
           
           
           
           that
           this
           is
           the
           66.
           chapter
           ;
           when
           Saint
           
             Cyprians
          
           Epistles
           are
           not
           distinguished
           by
           chapters
           ;
           doubtlesse
           my
           Ladie
           of
           
             Salignac
             ,
          
           who
           hath
           ten
           times
           more
           learning
           for
           a
           Ladie
           ,
           then
           he
           for
           a
           Doctor
           ,
           could
           haue
           taken
           him
           vp
           for
           this
           :
           Saint
           
             Cyprian
          
           indeed
           speaks
           in
           the
           place
           alleadged
           ,
           of
           alters
           and
           sacrifices
           ,
           but
           by
           sacrifices
           he
           vnderstands
           the
           presents
           which
           the
           people
           offered
           on
           the
           table
           ,
           of
           which
           one
           part
           was
           laid
           aside
           for
           the
           celebration
           of
           the
           Eucharist
           ;
           wherefore
           in
           his
           Sermon
           of
           almes
           he
           takes
           vp
           the
           rich
           men
           which
           men
           which
           came
           to
           receiue
           without
           offering
           anie
           sacrifice
           :
           
             Doest
             thou
             come
          
           (
           saith
           he
           )
           
             to
             the
             Lords
             Table
             without
             a
             sacrifice
             ,
             doest
             thou
             take
             part
             of
             the
             sacrifice
             which
             the
             poore
             hath
             offered
             ?
          
           and
           in
           the
           same
           ninth
           Epistle
           ,
           in
           the
           honour
           of
           the
           brethren
           which
           offer
           vp
           offrings
           ,
           as
           if
           they
           did
           receiue
           the
           tithes
           of
           fruits
           ,
           
             Let
             them
             not
             depart
             from
             the
             Altar
             ,
             and
             sacrifices
             .
          
        
         
           As
           concerning
           prayer
           for
           the
           dead
           ,
           which
           began
           to
           be
           in
           vse
           in
           the
           time
           of
           
             Tertullian
             ,
          
           and
           of
           which
           Saint
           
             Cypryan
          
           speakes
           in
           this
           Epistle
           ,
           this
           is
           a
           praier
           which
           at
           this
           daie
           the
           Church
           of
           Rome
           doth
           allowe
           of
           no
           more
           then
           wee
           ;
           seeing
           that
           then
           they
           praied
           for
           the
           Saints
           and
           Martyrs
           ,
           and
           that
           it
           shall
           neuer
           bee
           found
           that
           any
           one
           praied
           for
           the
           deliuerie
           of
           soules
           out
           of
           purgatorie
           ,
           but
           onely
           for
           the
           enfranchisement
           of
           soules
           kept
           in
           prison
           ,
           and
           sleeping
           in
           the
           bosome
           of
           peace
           ,
           of
           which
           you
           haue
           a
           feeling
           in
           your
           masse
           ,
           where
           the
           Priest
           praies
           in
           this
           manner
           for
           the
           dead
           :
           
             Lord
             thinke
             on
             thy
             seruants
             which
             sleepe
             in
             the
             bosome
             of
             peace
             ;
          
           Amongst
           the
           number
           of
           which
           the
           ancient
           Church
           doth
           reckon
           the
           Saints
           :
           who
           also
           as
           they
           thought
           in
           the
           next
           age
           to
           St.
           
             Cyprian
             ,
          
           should
           bee
           purged
           by
           fire
           in
           the
           last
           day
           of
           iudgement
           ,
           not
           exempting
           so
           much
           as
           the
           virgin
           
             Mary
          
           herselfe
           ,
           as
           wee
           haue
           shewed
           by
           a
           great
           number
           of
           proofes
           in
           the
           last
           chapter
           of
           a
           booke
           entituled
           ,
           
             The
             
             waters
             of
             Silo.
          
           Neuerthelesse
           Master
           
             Goutier
          
           least
           hee
           should
           haue
           nothing
           at
           all
           to
           say
           ,
           doth
           accuse
           mee
           for
           denying
           our
           owne
           Bible
           ;
           How
           so
           ?
           because
           saith
           hee
           ,
           that
           when
           he
           did
           alleadge
           these
           words
           vnto
           me
           ,
           which
           is
           shed
           for
           vs
           ,
           I
           said
           this
           was
           to
           be
           vnderstood
           in
           the
           future
           :
           A
           ridiculous
           calumnie
           :
           Rather
           on
           the
           contrary
           I
           say
           that
           our
           Bible
           doth
           turne
           the
           words
           more
           faithfully
           then
           that
           of
           the
           Church
           of
           Rome
           ,
           seeing
           that
           it
           is
           in
           the
           Greeke
           
             〈◊〉
             〈◊〉
             〈◊〉
             〈◊〉
             〈◊〉
          
           ,
           
             which
             is
             shed
             ,
          
           and
           not
           
             shall
             bee
             shed
             ,
          
           as
           the
           Bible
           of
           the
           Church
           of
           Rome
           and
           the
           masse
           haue
           it
           :
           But
           it
           is
           one
           thing
           to
           aske
           what
           is
           the
           best
           translation
           of
           the
           words
           of
           Iesus
           Christ
           ,
           another
           thing
           to
           aske
           what
           is
           the
           meaning
           of
           the
           words
           ;
           for
           our
           translation
           onely
           is
           true
           :
           but
           the
           Romish
           Bible
           doth
           expound
           the
           meaning
           and
           intention
           of
           Iesus
           Christ
           ,
           which
           is
           to
           promise
           that
           his
           bloud
           shall
           be
           shed
           for
           vs
           on
           the
           crosse
           ,
           failing
           in
           the
           turning
           ,
           but
           not
           in
           the
           drift
           of
           his
           words
           :
           as
           if
           when
           Iesus
           Christ
           saith
           ,
           
             Ioh.
             10.
             ver
             .
             15.
             
             I
             lay
             downe
             my
             life
             for
             my
             sheepe
             ,
          
           one
           should
           translate
           it
           thus
           ,
           
             I
             will
             lay
             downe
             or
             leaue
             my
             life
             :
          
           hee
           indeed
           should
           lay
           downe
           the
           true
           meaning
           of
           his
           words
           ,
           which
           although
           it
           were
           true
           ,
           yet
           ought
           it
           not
           to
           be
           inserted
           in
           the
           text
           :
           Let
           this
           suffice
           for
           an
           answer
           to
           Master
           
             Gontiers
          
           letters
           ,
           letters
           without
           sinewes
           ,
           without
           ioynts
           ,
           puft
           vp
           with
           a
           childishly
           affected
           kinde
           of
           swelling
           ,
           which
           we
           do
           therfore
           here
           pricke
           to
           the
           end
           we
           might
           bring
           it
           downe
           .
           Had
           he
           no
           bodie
           to
           present
           them
           to
           ,
           but
           his
           Maiestie
           .
           The
           Pagans
           in
           their
           sacrifices
           did
           neuer
           offer
           an
           Ape
           vnto
           their
           gods
           ,
           but
           these
           men
           presume
           to
           offer
           apish
           to
           yes
           to
           so
           great
           a
           Prince
           ,
           which
           holds
           the
           place
           of
           God
           among
           vs
           :
           who
           being
           wonderfull
           in
           his
           patience
           since
           he
           suffereth
           himselfe
           to
           be
           thus
           serued
           ,
           is
           no
           lesse
           wonderfull
           in
           the
           clearenesse
           of
           his
           iudgement
           .
           For
           hee
           knowes
           well
           that
           ,
           if
           his
           royall
           vertues
           were
           not
           aboue
           al
           enuie
           ,
           and
           out
           of
           the
           danger
           of
           forgetfulnesse
           ,
           they
           
           must
           needs
           lose
           some
           of
           their
           lustre
           by
           being
           mixt
           with
           the
           impurenesse
           of
           their
           pamphlets
           ,
           as
           pearles
           that
           are
           wrapt
           in
           smoake
           :
           neither
           doth
           he
           like
           of
           these
           seditious
           preachers
           ,
           which
           now
           preach
           in
           their
           Sermons
           before
           his
           Maiestie
           ,
           that
           we
           hate
           dominion
           ,
           &
           set
           al
           kind
           of
           gouernment
           at
           nought
           :
           for
           his
           Maiestie
           is
           not
           ignorant
           that
           this
           is
           so
           farre
           from
           being
           true
           ,
           that
           on
           the
           contrary
           ,
           this
           is
           the
           principall
           cause
           for
           which
           we
           are
           hated
           ,
           to
           wit
           ,
           because
           wee
           haue
           not
           taken
           on
           oath
           of
           allegeance
           to
           anie
           other
           then
           to
           the
           King
           ,
           because
           we
           hold
           that
           the
           Pope
           cannot
           giue
           or
           take
           away
           realmes
           ,
           nor
           dispense
           with
           subiects
           for
           the
           oath
           of
           fealty
           ;
           because
           wee
           teach
           that
           he
           should
           not
           haue
           heere
           anie
           other
           lawes
           ,
           any
           other
           iudges
           ,
           any
           other
           prisons
           ,
           then
           those
           of
           the
           King
           ,
           because
           that
           we
           shew
           that
           his
           realme
           is
           spoiled
           of
           siluer
           ,
           which
           passeth
           ouer
           into
           Italy
           for
           the
           paiment
           of
           first
           fruits
           dispensations
           ,
           absolutions
           ,
           matrimoniall
           contracts
           &c.
           
           And
           that
           cousenage
           and
           tyrannie
           are
           established
           vnder
           the
           shew
           of
           religion
           .
           Finallie
           ,
           because
           we
           complaine
           that
           the
           Pope
           makes
           Kings
           kisse
           his
           feete
           ,
           and
           tramples
           on
           their
           Crownes
           :
           would
           wee
           but
           sticke
           to
           the
           Pope
           in
           these
           things
           ,
           hee
           would
           easilie
           dispense
           with
           vs
           for
           our
           beleefe
           in
           the
           Gospell
           :
           or
           by
           a
           speciall
           priuiledge
           would
           permit
           vs
           to
           beleeue
           thereon
           ,
           in
           the
           things
           which
           were
           not
           preiudiciall
           to
           his
           profit
           .
           Is
           there
           any
           one
           that
           can
           accuse
           the
           reformed
           Churches
           of
           rebellion
           or
           attempting
           ought
           against
           our
           Kings
           ,
           or
           of
           conspiring
           to
           blow
           them
           vp
           with
           gun-powder
           ,
           and
           yet
           to
           dare
           to
           preach
           this
           in
           the
           presence
           of
           his
           Maiesty
           :
           which
           reproach
           ,
           the
           onely
           consideration
           ,
           and
           manie
           proofes
           that
           he
           hath
           had
           of
           our
           fidelitie
           doe
           sufficiently
           confute
           :
           For
           that
           the
           Iesuites
           goe
           about
           to
           perswade
           him
           that
           we
           are
           rebellious
           ,
           or
           ill-minded
           towards
           him
           ,
           is
           all
           one
           as
           if
           
             Caiphas
          
           should
           defend
           Iesus
           Christ
           against
           his
           Apostles
           ,
           or
           as
           if
           
             Catiline
          
           should
           accuse
           
             Cicero
          
           of
           sedition
           .
        
         
         
           At
           the
           end
           of
           Master
           
             Gontiers
          
           Epistle
           there
           is
           a
           discourse
           annexed
           ,
           subscribed
           with
           the
           name
           of
           
             Corbozon
             Mount-gommeri
             ,
          
           which
           was
           not
           present
           at
           the
           conference
           ,
           but
           saies
           that
           he
           heard
           of
           it
           at
           the
           
             Vicaridge
          
           of
           Saint
           
             Nicholas
             :
          
           This
           so
           honorable
           a
           name
           of
           
             Mount-gommeri
          
           doth
           vnhappily
           come
           to
           be
           written
           vnder
           so
           base
           a
           pamphlet
           ,
           and
           I
           cannot
           beleeue
           ,
           that
           so
           false
           and
           ridiculous
           peece
           of
           stuffe
           ,
           should
           come
           from
           vnder
           the
           handes
           of
           a
           Gentleman
           of
           that
           honor
           as
           he
           is
           ;
           without
           doubt
           some
           paltry
           Iesuite
           composed
           this
           writing
           at
           his
           pleasure
           ,
           which
           comes
           no
           more
           neere
           the
           truth
           of
           that
           which
           past
           betweene
           vs
           ,
           then
           
             Ouid
          
           his
           Metamorphosis
           doth
           to
           that
           of
           the
           Gospell
           .
           And
           indeed
           ,
           the
           recitall
           that
           Master
           
             Gontier
          
           hath
           made
           of
           our
           conference
           in
           his
           letter
           to
           the
           King
           ,
           hath
           nothing
           like
           vnto
           this
           ;
           but
           Monsieur
           de
           
             Corbozon
          
           is
           willing
           to
           honor
           it
           ,
           in
           couering
           it
           vnder
           his
           name
           ,
           as
           with
           a
           cloake
           ,
           which
           will
           scarce
           euer
           be
           brought
           him
           backe
           againe
           cleane
           :
           It
           would
           bee
           time
           lost
           to
           go
           about
           to
           confute
           this
           writing
           ;
           for
           if
           I
           should
           conuince
           the
           Author
           of
           absurditie
           ,
           Master
           
             Gontier
          
           would
           renounce
           him
           as
           one
           that
           had
           written
           vpon
           false
           information
           ,
           and
           so
           I
           should
           haue
           done
           as
           good
           as
           nothing
           .
           As
           for
           the
           defiance
           and
           threatnings
           of
           Master
           
             Gontier
             ,
          
           we
           neuer
           yet
           refused
           vpon
           any
           occasion
           that
           was
           offered
           ,
           to
           enter
           the
           lists
           vpon
           iust
           and
           equall
           termes
           ;
           But
           this
           people
           loues
           to
           set
           on
           men
           in
           corners
           ,
           that
           they
           may
           a
           little
           after
           publish
           the
           contrary
           the
           more
           freely
           ;
           especially
           when
           they
           haue
           one
           in
           hand
           to
           deale
           withall
           which
           is
           alreadie
           conuerted
           ;
           and
           which
           hath
           promised
           to
           yeeld
           himselfe
           before
           the
           combat
           ,
           only
           they
           make
           it
           deferre
           it
           a
           little
           ,
           till
           the
           time
           they
           haue
           plotted
           a
           conference
           .
        
         
           Now
           for
           to
           iustifie
           this
           which
           I
           say
           to
           be
           true
           ,
           Master
           
             Gontier
          
           a
           few
           daies
           after
           all
           this
           adoe
           ,
           ill
           befitting
           the
           grauitie
           of
           a
           Doctour
           ,
           will
           not
           yet
           let
           mee
           scapeso
           ,
           
           saying
           that
           he
           will
           enter
           in
           conference
           with
           me
           concerning
           the
           antiquitie
           of
           our
           Church
           ;
           and
           I
           meaning
           to
           enter
           the
           lists
           with
           him
           ,
           haue
           at
           this
           time
           sent
           him
           a
           writing
           ,
           of
           which
           this
           is
           the
           substance
           .
        
         
           
             
               
                 I
                 maintaine
                 that
                 M.
              
               Gontier
               
                 can
              
               not
               shew
               me
               in
               the
               foure
               first
               ages
               
                 after
                 Christ
                 ,
                 any
                 Church
                 ,
                 or
                 any
              
               man
               which
               held
               the
               same
               religion
               
                 as
                 the
                 Church
                 of
              
               Rome
               
                 doth
              
               at
               this
               day
               :
               and
               for
               this
               purpose
               .
            
             
               1
               He
               should
               shew
               me
               any
               ancient
               Church
               that
               celebrated
               the
               Communion
               without
               Communicants
               ,
               as
               they
               do
               ordinarily
               in
               the
               Church
               of
               Rome
               .
            
             
               2
               That
               he
               should
               shew
               me
               that
               any
               ancient
               Church
               did
               barre
               the
               people
               of
               the
               Communion
               of
               the
               cup.
               
            
             
               3
               Or
               that
               in
               any
               ancient
               Church
               ,
               the
               common
               seruice
               was
               read
               in
               a
               tongue
               which
               the
               people
               vnderstood
               not
               .
            
             
               4
               Or
               that
               any
               ancient
               Church
               did
               forbid
               the
               people
               to
               read
               the
               holy
               Scriptures
               ,
               as
               it
               is
               by
               no
               meanes
               permitted
               without
               a
               speciall
               priuiledge
               in
               the
               countries
               ,
               where
               the
               Pope
               is
               absolute
               Commander
               .
            
             
               5
               Or
               that
               in
               any
               ancient
               Church
               there
               were
               euer
               made
               any
               images
               of
               God
               ,
               and
               representation
               of
               the
               Trinitie
               in
               stone
               ,
               or
               in
               painting
               .
            
             
               6
               Or
               that
               in
               any
               auncient
               Church
               the
               people
               were
               
               taught
               to
               pray
               without
               vnderstanding
               that
               which
               they
               said
               .
            
             
               7
               Or
               that
               any
               ancient
               Church
               did
               do
               seruice
               to
               the
               images
               of
               Creatures
               ,
               in
               kissing
               them
               ,
               in
               clothing
               them
               ,
               by
               bowing
               themselues
               downe
               before
               them
               ,
               and
               offring
               vp
               sacrifices
               vnto
               them
               .
            
             
               8
               Or
               that
               any
               ancient
               Church
               euer
               beleeued
               that
               the
               Virgine
               
                 Mary
              
               is
               crowned
               Queene
               of
               heauen
               ,
               and
               Empresse
               of
               the
               world
               ,
               as
               it
               is
               painted
               throughout
               all
               their
               Churches
               .
            
             
               9
               Or
               that
               any
               ancient
               Church
               did
               assigne
               diuers
               offices
               to
               Saints
               ;
               to
               one
               ouer
               this
               Country
               ,
               to
               another
               ouer
               that
               ,
               to
               one
               ouer
               this
               sicknesse
               ,
               to
               another
               ouer
               that
               ,
               to
               one
               ouer
               this
               trade
               &c.
               
            
             
               10
               Or
               that
               any
               ancient
               Church
               did
               euer
               beleeue
               that
               the
               Pope
               could
               giue
               and
               take
               away
               realmes
               ,
               and
               free
               subiects
               from
               their
               oath
               of
               allegeance
               ,
               canonize
               Saints
               ,
               dispense
               with
               vowes
               and
               promises
               made
               vnto
               God.
               
            
             
               11
               Or
               that
               in
               the
               ancient
               Church
               ,
               the
               Pope
               by
               his
               pardons
               did
               distribute
               the
               superabundant
               satisfactions
               of
               the
               Saints
               ,
               for
               the
               remission
               of
               the
               punishment
               of
               the
               sinnes
               of
               others
               .
            
             
               12
               Or
               that
               the
               Pope
               did
               then
               lay
               his
               pardons
               on
               one
               Church
               and
               not
               on
               another
               ,
               on
               one
               village
               and
               not
               on
               another
               ,
               and
               this
               sometimes
               for
               one
               hundred
               and
               two
               hundred
               yeares
               of
               true
               pardon
               .
            
             
               13
               Or
               that
               the
               ancient
               Church
               did
               beleeue
               a
               Lymbus
               of
               little
               infants
               .
            
             
               14
               Or
               that
               the
               ancient
               Church
               did
               euer
               adore
               the
               host
               ,
               which
               the
               Priest
               holds
               ,
               with
               diuine
               worship
               ,
               and
               that
               this
               is
               the
               cause
               ,
               why
               the
               Priest
               doth
               vse
               to
               hold
               vp
               the
               host
               in
               the
               Masse
               .
            
             
               15
               Or
               that
               the
               bookes
               of
               the
               Machabees
               were
               held
               for
               Canonicall
               in
               the
               ancient
               Church
               .
            
             
               
               16
               Or
               that
               the
               ancient
               Church
               did
               beleeue
               that
               the
               Bishop
               of
               Rome
               could
               not
               erre
               in
               the
               faith
               .
            
             
               17
               Or
               that
               the
               ancient
               Church
               did
               beleeue
               that
               Iesus
               Christ
               by
               his
               death
               and
               suffering
               did
               indeed
               discharge
               vs
               from
               the
               punishment
               of
               sinne
               before
               baptisme
               ,
               but
               as
               for
               the
               punishment
               of
               sinne
               committed
               after
               baptisme
               ,
               he
               hath
               changed
               it
               from
               eternall
               ,
               vnto
               temporall
               ,
               and
               that
               it
               lies
               vs
               vpon
               to
               satisfie
               the
               iustice
               of
               God
               for
               this
               .
            
          
           
             That
             Master
             
               Gontier
            
             should
             tell
             vs
             ,
             if
             in
             these
             points
             he
             will
             admit
             of
             the
             Fathers
             for
             iudges
             ,
             we
             will
             aske
             but
             halfe
             a
             douzen
             cleare
             passages
             vpon
             euery
             point
             .
          
        
         
           FINIS
           .
        
      
    
     
       
         Notes, typically marginal, from the original text
         
           Notes for div A20940-e220
           
             *
             He
             did
             the
             like
             at
             
               Amiens
            
             against
             
               Monsieur
               Hucher
            
             being
             troubled
             to
             answer
             ,
             he
             sent
             to
             fetch
             his
             concordance
             .