The proceedings at the Sessions House in the Old-Baily, London on Thursday the 24th day of November, 1681 before His Majesties commissioners of Oyer and Terminer upon the bill of indictment for high-treason against Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury : published by His Majesties special command. Shaftesbury, Anthony Ashley Cooper, Earl of, 1621-1683. 1681 Approx. 181 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 26 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2009-03 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A55942 Wing P3564 ESTC R21380 12119515 ocm 12119515 54424 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A55942) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 54424) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 875:17) The proceedings at the Sessions House in the Old-Baily, London on Thursday the 24th day of November, 1681 before His Majesties commissioners of Oyer and Terminer upon the bill of indictment for high-treason against Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury : published by His Majesties special command. Shaftesbury, Anthony Ashley Cooper, Earl of, 1621-1683. England and Wales. Court of Oyer and Terminer and Gaol Delivery (London and Middlesex). [2], 48 p. Printed for Samuel Mearne and John Baker, London : 1681. Reproduction of original in Huntington Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. 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Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Shaftesbury, Anthony Ashley Cooper, -- Earl of, 1621-1683. Treason -- Great Britain. Trials (Treason) -- Great Britain. 2007-06 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2007-07 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2008-04 John Latta Sampled and proofread 2008-04 John Latta Text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-09 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE PROCEEDINGS AT THE Sessions House IN THE Old-Baily , London , ON Thursday the 24th day of November , 1681. BEFORE His Majesties Commissioners of Oyer and Terminer , UPON THE Bill of Indictment FOR HIGH-TREASON AGAINST ANTHONY EARL of SHAFTSBVRY . Published by His Majesties Special Command . LONDON , Printed for Samuel Mearne and John Baker , 1681. THE PROCEEDINGS AT THE Sessions-House IN THE OLD-BAYLY , LONDON , On Thursday the 24th of November , 1681. The GRAND-JURY . Sir Samuel Barnardiston . John Morden . Thomas Papillon . John Dubois . Charles Hearle . Edward Rudge . Humphrey Edwin . John Morrice . Edmund Harrison . Joseph Wright . John Cox. Thomas Parker . Leonard Robinson . Thomas Shepherd . John Flavell . Michael Godfrey . Joseph Richardson . William Empson . Andrew Kendrick . John Lane. John Hall. The OATH . YOU shall diligently Inquire , and true Presentment make , of all such Matters , Articles , and Things , as shall be given you in Charge , as of all other Matters and Things as shall come to your own knowledge , touching this present service , the Kings Council , your Fellows , and your own , you shall keep secret ; you shall present no Person for hatred or malice ; neither shall you leave any one unpresented for fear , favour , or affection , for lucre or gain , or any hopes thereof , but in all things you shall present the truth , the whole truth , and nothing but the truth , to the best of your knowledge . So help you God. L. C. J. Pemberton . GEntlemen of the Jury , we are all met here in one of the most Solemn Assemblies of this Nation ; it is upon the Execution of Justice upon such as shall be found Offenders , and Guilty of the Breach of the King's Laws . This Commission by which we sit , and you are Summoned , doth in its nature extend to all Offences whatsoever against the Laws of the Land , Treasons , Misprisions of Treasons , Felonies , and all other Crimes and Offences against the King and his Government , such as are vulgarly called Pleas of the Crown ; they all fall under our Cognizance , and your Enquiry in a general manner . But I must tell you , there is a particular occasion for this Commission at this time . His Majesty having Information of some Evil , Trayterous Designs against his Person and Government , has thought fit to Direct a due Examination of them , and that the persons may be brought to Condign punishment who shall be found Guilty thereof . You must not therefore expect any general and formal Charge from me ; Truly I came hither this Morning , with an apprehension , that you had had your directions given you before by the Recorder , for it is our usual way not to come until the Juries are Sworn in this place , and their Directions given them ; but since I find it otherwise , I take it to be my Duty to say something to you , but shall not go about now to make any such formal Charge , as in Commissions of this nature is wont to be done , nor to give an account of all Offences that fall under your Enquiry of a Grand Inquest , Impannelled by vertue of such a Commission at large : Nor must you expect I should acquaint you with all the Crimes that you may enquire of as such an Inquest . I shall content my self so far , as on the sudden I can recollect my thoughts , to acquaint you with the Nature of those Bills ; with the Enquiry whereof , you shall at present , upon this occasion , be troubled , and your Duty concerning that Enquiry . I hinted to you at first , that they are matters of High-Treason , which is a Crime of the greatest and highest nature of any Crime that can be committed against Man ; other Crimes , as Felonies , Riots , Trespasses , and Things of that nature , they may occasion disorders and troubles in a State or a Kingdom . But , I must tell you , Treason strikes at the root and life of all ; it tends to destroy the very Government , both King and Subjects , and the Lives , Interest and Liberties of all , and therefore has always been look'd upon as a Crime of the most notorious nature that can be whatsoever , and accordingly Punishments have been appointed for it of the highest and severest extremity . There was at Common Law great variety of Opinions concerning Treason , and there were many Disputes about it what should be Treason , and what not ; and therefore it was thought fit , by the Wisdom of our Ancestors , to have a Law to Declare Treason : and by the Statute of the 25th of Edward the 3d , there was a plain Declaration made of what was Treason , and what not : By that Law , for any one to Compass , Imagine , or Intend the Death of the King , ( for I will give you no more of that Statute , nor concerning the sense thereof , than may be for your purpose now ) ; I say , by that Law , to Compass , Imagine , or Intend the Death of the King , and to declare it by Overt-Act , or to Levy War against the King were declared ( amongst other things in that Statute mentioned ) to be High-Treason : And this hath obtained for Law among us ever since ; and by that standing Law , nothing is to be accounted Treason , but what is therein particularly declared so ; but upon many emergent occasions there hath been several other Laws , as the case hath required now and then , for to declare and bring other particular Crimes within the compass of Treasons : So there was a Law made in Queen Elizabeths Reign , for Enacting several Crimes to be Treasons , during her Life , which was made upon the occasion of the Inveterate Malice of the Roman Catholicks against her and her Government ; and so there hath been in other Kings Reigns upon other occasions . Amongst the rest , it was thought fit by the Parliament assembled here , in the Thirteenth year of this present King , to make a particular Law for the Enacting and Declaring several Crimes to be Treasons , during this Kings Life ; they had great grounds , and too much occasion for it , and so they express it in the Preamble of that Law. The wounds which the then late Treasons had made , that had so far obtained in this Kingdom , were then still bleeding , ripe , and scarcely closed ; many Trayterous Positions , and many Seditious Principles were spread , and had obtained and gained footing among the People of this Kingdom ; and the Parliament had reason to believe , that where they had been so maliciously bent against the King and his Family , and had taken off his Father , and maintained so long and dangerous a War against him , almost to the utter Destruction and Extirpation of him , and all his good Subjects , and of his , and all our Interests , Properties , and Liberties , and had almost destroy'd a flourishing Kingdom : Here they had reason , I say , to be careful , to prevent the like mischiefs for the future ; therefore , Gentlemen , they did think fit to make a new Law for this purpose : And whereas the Law before was , That it should be Treason to Compass , Imagine , or Intend the Death of the King , so as it were declared by Overt-Act ; now they thought it would be dangerous to stay till an Overt-Act should declare the intention ; for when they had seen such malicious and evil Designs against the King and Supreme Authority ; and that they had prevailed so far , as to Murder one King , and Banish another ; and had gone a great way in the destruction of the Government of this Kingdom , absolutely to root it quite out : They had reason then , as much as they could , to prevent the Designs before they should grow full ripe , and vent themselves in Overt-Acts ; therefore it was Enacted by that Statute , made in the 13th year of this Kings Reign , That if any one should Compass , Imagine , or Intend the Death of the King , or his Destruction , or any bodily harm , that might tend to his Death or Destruction , or any Maiming or Wounding his Person , any Restraint of his Liberty , or any Imprisonment of him ; or if any should design or intend to Levy any War against him , either within the Kingdom , or without ; or should design , intend , endeavour , or procure any Foreign Prince to Invade these his Dominions , or any other of the Kings Dominions , and should signifie or declare this by any Writing , or by any Preaching or Printing , or by any advised , malicious speaking , or words , this shall be High-Treason . Now this hath altered the former Law greatly , especially in two Cases : First as to Levying of War ; the Intention was not Treason before , unless it had taken effect , and War had been actually Levied : And then as to the Designing and Compassing the Kings Death , that was not Treason , unless it was declared by an Overt-Act : And as to the Imprisoning , or Restraining of the Liberty of the King , they of themselves alone were not High-Treason ; but now by this Law these are made Treason , by this Law , during his Majesties Life : And the very designing of them , whether they take effect , or not take effect , though it be prevented ( before any Overt Act , ) by the timely Prudence of the King and his Officers , though it should be timely prevented , that there is no hurt done ; yet the very design , if it be but utter'd and spoken , and any ways signified by any discourse ; this ( Gentlemen ) is made Treason , by this Act ; and this hath wrought very great alteration in the case of Treason now ; formerly it was said , and said truly enough , that Words alone would not make Treason ; but since this Act , Gentlemen , Words , if they import any malicious design against the Kings Life and Government ; any Trayterous intention in the party ; such words are Treason now within this Act : And this Act was made with great Prudence , and with great Care to take off that undue Liberty that men had taken to themselves ; in those times of Licentiousness , people had taken to themselves an undecent , and undue liberty to vent all their Seditious and Malicious minds one to another , without any restraint at all : Therefore now , Gentlemen , you must consider , that Words , if they signifie or purport any Trayterous ▪ intention or design in the party , either against the King or his Government ; either to restrain his Liberty , or Imprison him , or to do him any bodily hurt , or any Crime of that nature ; this is Treason within this Act of Parliament . Look ye , Gentlemen , now as to the Indictments that shall be brought before you , you are to consider these things : 1. Whether the Matter contained in them , and which you shall have in Evidence , be Matter of Treason within the former , or this Act of Parliament ? And here , if you doubt of it , then you must advise with us that are Commissionated by his Majesty to Hear and Determine these Crimes ; and in Matters of Law we shall direct you : And you are to enquire if there be two Witnesses that shall testifie the Matters in Evidence to you , for without two Witnesses no man is to be Impeached within these Laws ; but if there be two Witnesses that shall testifie to you Matters to make good the Indictments , then you have ground to find the Indictments . But I must tell you as to this case of two Witnesses , it is not necessary that they should be ; Two Witnesses to the same words , or to words spoken at one time , or in the same place ; that is not necessary : If one be a Witness to words that Import any Trayterous design and intention , spoken at one time , and in one place ; and another testifie other Seditious and Trayterous Words , spoken at another time , and in another place ; these two are two good Witnesses within this Statute , and so it hath been solemnly resolved by all the Judges of England upon a solemn occasion . Look ye , Gentlemen , I must tell you , That that which is referr'd to you , is to consider , whether upon what Evidence you shall have given unto you , there be any reason or ground for the King to call these persons to an account ; if there be probable ground , it is as much as you are to enquire into : You are not to Judge the persons , but for the Honour of the King , and the Decency of the Matter ; it is not thought fit by the Law , that persons should be Accused and Indicted , where there is no colour nor ground for it ; where there is no kind of suspition of a Crime , nor reason to believe , that the thing can be proved , it is not for the King's Honour to call Men to an Account in such cases : Therefore you are to enquire , whether that that you hear be any cause or reason for the King to put the Party to answer it . You do not Condemn , nor is there such a strict Enquiry to be made by you , as by others , that are sworn to try a Fact , or Issue : A probable cause , or some ground , that the King hath to call these persons to answer for it , is enough , Gentlemen , for you to find a Bill , 't is as much as is by Law required . Gentlemen , you must consider this , That as it is a Crime for to condemn Innocent persons , so it is a Crime as great to acquit the Guilty , and that God that requires one of them , requires both ; so that you must be as strict in the one , as you would be in the other . And let me tell you , If any of you shall be Refractory , and will not find any Bill , where there is a probable ground for an Accusation , you do therein undertake to intercept Justice , and you thereby make your selves Criminals , and Guilty , and the fault will lye at your Door . You must consider , Gentlemen , you are under a double Obligation here to do Right ; you are under the Obligation of English-men , as we are all Members of one great Body , of which the King is Head ; and you are engag'd , as English-men , to consider , That Crimes of this Nature ought not to go unpunish'd : Then you have an Oath of God upon you , you are here sworn to do according to what the Evidence is . Now therefore , if you have two Witnesses of Words that may import a Treasonable Design or Intention in any of those Parties , against whom you shall have Indictments offer'd to you , you are bound both by the Law of Nature , as you are Members of this Body ; and by the Law of God , as you have taken an Oath upon you , for to find those Bills . Gentlemen , Compassion or Pity is not your Province , nor ours in this case ; there is no room for that in Enquiries of this nature , that is reserv'd to an higher and superiour Power , from which ours is deriv'd : Therefore , Gentlemen , I must require you to consider such Evidence as shall be given you , and to be impartial according to what you shall hear from the Witnesses , if you have ground , upon what Evidence you shall have given to you , to believe , that there is any reason or cause for the King to call the persons named in such Indictments , as shall be tender'd to you , to answer for what is objected against them therein , you are to find those Bills , that is all that I shall say to you , only pray God to direct you in your Enquiry , that Justice may take place . [ Then a Bill of High-Treason was offer'd against the Earl of Shaftsbury , and Sir Francis Withens moved , That the Evidence might be heard in Court. ] L. C. J. Gentlemen of the Jury , You hear it is desired by the King's Council , ( and that we cannot deny ) that the Evidence may be publickly given , that it may not be hereafter in the Mouths of any ill-minded persons abroad , to scatter any Mistakes or Untruths up and down , or to slander the King's Evidence , or to say any thing concerning them that is not true : Therefore we cannot deny this motion of the King's Council , but desire that you will take your places , and hear the Evidence that shall be given you . [ The Jury then desired a Copy of their Oath , which the Court granted , and then they withdrew . After some little time they returned , and then the Clerk called them by their Names . ] Foreman . My Lord Chief Justice , it is the opinion of the Jury , that they ought to Examine the Witnesses in private , and it hath been the constant practice of our Ancestors and Predecestors to do it , and they insist upon it as our Right to Examine in private , because they are bound to keep the King 's Secrets , which they cannot do if it be done in Court. L. C. J. Look ye Gentlemen of the Jury , it may very probably be , that some late usage has brought you into this Error , That it is your Right ; but it is not your Right in truth : For I will tell you , I take the reason of that use for Grand Juries to Examine the Witnesses privately and out of Court , to comply with the Conveniencies of the Court , for generally upon such Commissions as these are , the business is much ; and at Gaol-Deliveries there are a great many persons to be Indicted and Tried , and much other Work besides , of other natures , to be done : And if at such times we should examine all Businesses publickly in the Court , it would make the business of these Commissions of a wonderful great length and cumbrance . Therefore the Judges , for the conveniency of the matter , have allow'd , That Witnesses should go to the Jury , and they to Examine them ; not that there is any matter of Right in it , for without question Originally all Evidences were given in Court ; the Jury are Officers and Ministers of the Court by which they enquire , and Evidence sure was all given in Court formerly ; and the Witnesses still are always sworn in Court , and never otherwise . And , Gentlemen , I must tell you , 'T is for your Advantage , as well as for the King 's , that it may be sure , that you comply with your Evidence , that you do nothing clandestinely ; therefore 't is for your advantage that this is done , and the King likewise desires it . Now I must tell you , That if the King require it of us , and it is a thing that is in its Nature indifferent , we ought to comply with the King's desire , to have it examin'd in Court ; you shall have all the liberty that you can have in private ; what Question soever you will have ask'd , your selves shall ask it , if you please , and we will not cramp you in Time , nor any thing of that Nature . Therefore , Gentlemen , there can be no kind of reason why this Evidence should not be given in Court. What you say concerning your keeping your Councels , that is quite of another Nature , that is , your Debates , and those things , there you shall be in private for to consider of what you hear publickly . But certainly it is the best way , both for the King , and for you , that there should , in a case of this nature , be an open and plain Examination of the Witnesses , that all the World may see what they say . Foreman . My Lord , if your Lordship pleases , I must beg your Lordship's pardon ; if I mistake in any thing , it is contrary to the sence of what the Jury apprehend . First , They apprehend that the very words of the Oath doth bind them , it says , That they shall keep the Council's , and their own Secrets : Now , my Lord , there can be no Secret in publick ; the very intimation of that doth imply , that the Examination should be secret ; besides , my Lord , I beg your Lordship's pardon if we mistake , we do not understand any thing of Law. Mr. Papillon . Your Lordship is pleased to say , That it hath been the common usage and practice ; sometimes , my Lord , we have heard , that that hath been the Law of England , that hath been the Custom of England : If it be the ancient usage and custom of England , that hath never been alter'd from time to time , and hath continued so , we desire your Lordship's Opinion upon that , as we would not do any thing that may be prejudicial to the King ▪ so we would not do the least that should be prejudicial to the Liberties of the People ; if it be the ancient Custom of the Kingdom to Examine in private , then there is something may be very prejudicial to the King in this publick Examination ; for sometimes in Examining Witnesses in private , there come to be discover'd some persons Guilty of Treason , and Misprision of Treason , that were not ▪ known , nor . thought on before . Then the Jury sends down to the Court , and gives them intimation , and these men are presently secur'd ; whereas , my Lord , in case they be Examined in open Court publickly , then presently there is intimation given , and these men are gone away . Another thing that may be prejudicial to the King , is , that all the Evidences here will be foreknown before they come to the main Tryal upon issue by the Petty-Jury ; then if there be not a very great deal of care , these Witnesses may be confronted by raising up Witnesses to prejudice them , as in some cases it has been : Then besides , the Jury do apprehend that in private , they are more free to Examine things in particular for the satisfying their own Consciences , and that without favour or affection ; and we hope we shall do our duty . L. C. J. Look ye , Mr. Papillon , it is reasonable that we should give you our advice in this case : I must tell you , if you had consider'd of what I had said before , I thought I had obviated these Objections : First as to that that you do say , that you are bound ▪ to Conceal your Councels , and the Kings secrets , that is very true ; as to your Councels , that is ▪ your Debates , you are bound to conceal them : As to the Kings secrets , so long as he will have them kept secret , you are bound to keep them so too , but it doth not deprive the King of the benefit of having it publick , if he have a desire for it ; you don't break your Oath , if the King will make it publick ; you don't make it publick , 't is the King does it . Then as to that that you do say , that you apprehend the common usage of the Kingdom to be a Law ; that is true , Mr. Papillon , in some sence ; a constant and uninterrupted usage goes for a Law among us ▪ but I thought I had told you before , that both of ancient and later times there have been Examinations of the Witnesses in Court in Cases of this nature ; and we are not without presidents of it every Year , every Term , continually from time to time , Evidence is heard in Court by the Grand-Jury ; it is as usual a thing with us , as any thing , if it be desired , nothing more frequent , or more common : I never heard it deny'd , or stood upon by any Grand-Jury in my life , till of late here ; you may be instructed with a thousand presidents , for I am sure it is a common and ordinary case upon such occasions , if desired to hear the Evidence in Court. Look ye , Gentlemen , as to that care that you have of the Kings affairs , the King has reason to take it well that you are so careful for them ; and that you are so mindful of his concerns , he hath a great deal of reason to think well of you for it : And , Gentlemen , consider this , that His Majesties Council have certainly considered of this Evidence , before they brought this to a publick Enquiry ; or else it would be a hard thing if they should come raw , and not know what the Witnesses can say ; for though you are the Jury to hear the Witnesses , yet you must consider , that the Kings Council have Examined whether he hath cause to accuse these persons , or not ; and , Gentlemen , they understand very well , that it will be no prejudice to the King to have the Evidence heard openly in Court , or else the King would ne're desire it . Foreman . My Lord , the Gentlemen of the Jury desire that it may be Recorded , that we insisted upon it as our Right ; but if the Court o're rule , we must submit to it . L. C. J. Here are enough persons to take notice of it ; to make Records of such things , is not usual ; it is not our business here to record every thing , that every man will desire to be Recorded : We can Record nothing but what is in Order to the Proceedings , but notice enough is taken of it ; you need not fear but that there will be Witnesses enough . L. C. J. North. Gentlemen , I must say something to fortifie what my Lord Chief Justice has said : If any of us had been of a different opinion , we would have spoken it ; the same thing was stood upon , and discoursed on the last Sessions , and then all the Judges were of this opinion , and in what all the Judges agree to , you should acquiesce . I must tell you from my own experience ; where the King will , he ought to have it kept secret : I have not known it done publi●kly in the orderly course of business ; but I have often known wher●… hath been desir'd by those which Prosecute for the King , that Evidence hath been given openly ; and I never knew it deny'd : If any of my Brothers think otherwise , I desire they would speak ; but , I tell you , as to my experience , this is the case . Mr. Sheriff P. I desire the Witnesses may be kept out of the Court , and called one by one . L. C. J. It is a thing certainly , that the King's Council will not be afraid of doing ; but Sheriffs do not use to move any thing of this nature in Court , and therefore 't is not your Duty , Mr. Sheriff , to meddle with it . Sheriff P. It was my Duty last time , my Lord , and appointed . Mr. Att. Gen. You were acquainted 't was not your Duty last time , and you appear against the King. Then the Indictment was Read. London ss . THE Jurors for our Soveraign Lord the King , upon their Oaths present , that Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury , late of the Parish of St. Martins in the Fields , in the County of Middlesex , as a false Traytor against the most Illustrious , and most Excellent Prince , our Soveraign Lord Charles the Second , by the Grace of God , of England , Scotland , France and Ireland , King , his Natural Lord , the fear of God in his heart not having , nor weighing the Duty of his Allegiance ; but being moved and seduced by the Instigation of the Devil , the Cordial Love , and true , due , and natural Obedience , which true and faithful Subjects of our said Soveraign Lord the King , towards him our said Soveraign Lord the King , should , and of right ought to bear , wholly withdrawing , and with all his strength intending the Peace and common Tranquillity in this Kingdom of England , to disturb , and War and Rebellion against our said Soveraign Lord the King , to stir up and move , and the Government of our said Soveraign Lord the King , within this Kingdom of England , to subvert , and him our said Soveraign Lord the King , from the Title , Honour and Regal Name of the Imperial Crown of his Kingdom of England to Depose and Deprive , and Him our said Soveraign Lord the King to death and final destruction to bring and put , the 18th day of March , in the Three and thirtieth year of the Reign of our Soveraign Lord , Charles the Second , now King of England , and divers other days and times , as well before as afterward , in the Parish of St. Mary Le-Bow , in the Ward of Cheap , London , Trayterously compassed , imagined , and intended the Death and Final Destruction of our said Soveraign Lord the King , and the ancient Government of his Kingdom of England , to change , alter , and wholly to Subvert , and Him our said Soveraign Lord the King , from the Title , Honour , and Kingly Name of his Imperial Crown of this Kingdom of England to Depose and Deprive , and War and Rebellion against our said Soveraign Lord the King , to move and levy within this Kingdom of England ; and his said most wicked Treasons , and Trayterous compasses , imaginations and purposes aforesaid , to fulfill and perfect , he the said Anthony . Earl of Shaftsbury , as a false Traytor , with divers Armed men , Subjects of our said Soveraign Lord the King , then being , maliciously , trayterously and advisedly did provide and prepare to be aiding to him the said Earl of Shaftsbury , to fulfill and perfect his Treasons aforesaid . And his said wicked Treasons , Trayterous compasses , imaginations and purposes , the sooner to fulfill and perfect , he the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury , as a false Traytor , with one John Booth , and other Subjects of our said Lord the King , then and there Trayterously assembled , met and consulted ; and the same wicked Treasons , and Trayterous compasses , imaginations and purposes aforesaid , then and there to the said John Booth , and other persons , to the Jury unknown , in the hearing of divers Liege Subjects of our Soveraign Lord the King , then and there present , openly , publickly , maliciously , trayterously and advisedly did say and declare , and to perswade and induce the said John Booth to be aiding and assisting in his said Treasons , Compasses , Imaginations and Purposes , he the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury , as a false Traytor , maliciously , advisedly , and trayterously , the said 18th day of March , in the Three and thirtieth year of the Reign of our said Soveraign Lord the King , at the Parish and Ward aforesaid , within the City of London aforesaid , falsly , advisedly , subtilly , maliciously and trayterously said , asserted and declared , That in a short time the Parliament was to sit at Oxford , and that he the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury had inspected the Elections , and considered the inclinations and dispositions of the generality of the Members of Parliament Elected ; and that he the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury was satisfied that the Parliament would insist upon three Matters , ( to wit ) The Bill of Exclusion against the Duke of York ; the Abolishing the Act of Parliament of the 35th of Queen Elizabeth , and the passing of a New Bill for Vniting Protestant Dissenters ; with divers other good and wholesome Bills . To which he the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury was certain that the Kings Majesty would refuse to give his Royal Assent ; and therefore he the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury did expect that there would be a Division between the Kings Majesty and the Parliament ; and that many Noble Lords and Worthy Members of the lower House did concur in the same Opinion ; and they were resolved to insist upon the Passing of those Bills : And if the Kings Majesty refused , that they ( meaning him the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury , and the said Noble Lords and Worthy Members ) had provided strength to compel the Kings Majesty to Grant thereunto : And that for his part , he the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury had provided stout men to be Commanded by Captain Wilkinson , ( meaning one Henry Wilkinson , one of the Subjects of our said now Soveraign Lord the King ) ; of which he the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury had agreed that the said John Booth should be one . And further , The Jurors aforesaid upon their Oath do say , That the aforesaid Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury , his said wicked Treasons , and Trayterous Imaginations , to fulfill , perfect , and bring to effect afterwards ; to wit , the said Eighteenth day of March , in the Thirty-third year of his said now Majesties Reign , in the Parish and Ward aforesaid , within the City of London aforesaid , as a false Traytor in the presence and hearing of divers Liege People of our said Soveraign Lord the King , then and there present , openly and publickly , falsly , maliciously , advisedly and traiterously said , asserted , published , and with a loud voice declared , That our said now Lord the King was a Man of no Faith , and that there was no trust in him ; and that our said Lord the King deserved to be deposed , as well as Richard the Second , late King of England , deserved . And further , The Jurors aforesaid upon their Oath do say , That the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury , his said wicked Treasons , and traiterous Imaginations aforesaid , to be fulfilled and perfected , and brought to effect the said 18th day of March , in the Three and thirtieth year of his said now Majesty's Reign , in the Parish and Ward aforesaid , in the City of London aforesaid , as a false Traytor , in the presence and hearing of divers Liege Subjects of our said Lord the King then and there present , openly and publickly , falsly , maliciously , advisedly , and traiterously said , asserted , published , and with a loud voice declared , That he the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury would never desist , until he had brought this Kingdom of England into a Commonwealth without a King , and that the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury , and all those that him the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury would assist , ( and he knew many that would assist him the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury ) would make England a Commonwealth as Holland was : And that he the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury , and other Traytors unknown , would live as in Holland , and that he our said Lord the King , and all his Family , should be rooted out . And further , The Jurors aforesaid do say , That the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury , his said wicked Treasons , and traiterous Imaginations aforesaid , to be fulfilled , perfected , and brought to effect afterwards , the said 18th day of March , in the Three and thirtieth year of his said now Majesty's Reign , in the Parish and Ward aforesaid , in the City of London aforesaid , as a false Traytor , in the presence and hearing of divers Liege Subjects of our said Soveraign Lord the King then and there present , openly , publickly , falsly , maliciously , advisedly , and traiterously said , asserted , published , and with a loud voice declared , That our now Soveraign Lord the King was a Man of an unfaithful Heart , and not worthy to be trusted , and not fit to Rule and Govern , being false , unjust , and cruel to his People ; and if he would not be governed by his People , that they ( meaning him the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury , and other Traytors to the Jurors unknown ) our said Soveraign Lord the King would depose , against his Allegiance and Duty , and against the Peace of our said Soveraign Lord the King , his Crown and Dignity , &c. and against the form of the Statute in such case made and provided , &c. Sir Fr. Withens . Gentlemen of the Jury , This is an Indictment against the Earl of Shaftsbury ; I shall not trouble you to open the Indictment , because the Evidence will be somewhat long , I shall only tell you which way we shall go — L. C. J. North. I do not know whether you desire the Witnesses should be Examin'd apart , do you desire that , Gentlemen ? L. C. J. If you do desire it , Gentlemen , they shall , for Mr. Sheriff hath nothing to do with it ; but if you do desire it , you shall have the Witnesses call'd one at a time , and all the rest shall be put out of the Court. Jury . My Lord , It is our desire . L. C. J. We did deny it to Mr. Sheriff , because we are to keep Men within their Duty . Here it is not his Duty to meddle with any thing of this nature . Foreman . My Lord , We desire we may have a List of their Names , and that they may be put apart , that they may not hear what one another say . Sir Fr. Withens . My Lord , There is one part I would open . L. C. J. There is no need for it at all — You shall have their Names told you as they are call'd . Mr. Harrison . My Lord , We pray we may have a List of their Names . L. C. J. If you desire it , you may have it , but it will be no advantage , for you will hear them named , and you may write them down as they come in . Mr. Godfrey . We desire a List , for you told us , The King's Council had Examin'd them , and knew who they were . L. C. J. I 'le tell you , The Court is to have their Names indorsed , for they don't bring Witnesses in hugger-mugger , and I suppose they are indorsed here . L. C. J. North. It is want of Experience that makes you ask this ; you are told , they are indorsed here . L. C. J. Look you , Sir Samuel Barnardiston , you must have the Indictment it self out with you , and all their Names written upon the back of that Indictment ; but that you should desire to have the Names of them in a Roll beforehand , I do not know , if there be any reason that you can assign for it . Foreman . One thing more I have to say , That we may see the Warrant by which the Earl of Shaftsbury was committed , for there are some other Questions depend upon it . L. C. J. That we cannot do , for the Lieutenant of the Tower hath that Warrant , which he keeps for his Indemnity ; we cannot demand it from him upon any terms : Any thing that you do desire of us , let us know ; what is reasonable , and within our Power , we will grant ; and for other desires of yours , we tell the reason why we cannot grant them . Mr. Papillon . My Lord , if your Lordship pleases , I will only acquaint your Lordship , That the Gentlemen of the Jury do seem to be of Opinion , that your Lordship gives them leave to examine the Witnesses ; and the Jury , because they would not put the Court to too much trouble , do desire , That the Witnesses should come one after another , and make their Information , and then the Jury would withdraw , to consider what proper Questions to ask them , and come down again . L. C. J. You shall do so , Gentlemen . Look you , we did at the request of the last Jury use the same method ; after they had heard the Witnesses what they gave in evidence , they came and desired leave to ask them some Questions , which was granted , and they were call'd one by one , and they did examine them ; you shall do so , Gentlemen . Mr. Att. Gen. I was informed this Morning there were several Questions to be askt of the several Witnesses to direct the Grand-Jury how to demean themselves . L. C. J. Mr. Attorney , the request is reasonable enough . Mr. Harrison . We desire they may be Examined one by one . L. C. J. North. I suppose you don't stand upon it for these Witnesses , they are Clerks of the Council , that only prove a Paper which it seems was found in the Earl of Shaftsbury's house : if you will they may go out and be call'd in again . Harrison . We humbly beg it . Mr. Godfrey . I was Foreman of the Jury at Fitz-Harris's Tryal , and it was complained he had hard measure from some Irish Witnesses , and that it was severe that they should be examin'd in troops : it hath troubled me since that I did not put them out and examine them apart . L. C. J. Look ye , Gentlemen , you that are Witnesses for the King , you must go all out , and come in as you are called , one by one . Which done William Blathwait Esq was produced , and a Paper delivered in . Mr. Sanders to Mr. Blathwait . I pray Sir , give an account how you came by that Paper . W. Blathwait . This Paper Gentlemen was put into my Custody by Mr. Gwyn , Clerk of the Council , who seiz'd it among others in my Lord Shaftsbury's House : he gave me the Key of the Room where they were kept , and it hath been altogether in my Custody , except for a short time that it was delivered to Mr. Secretary Jenkins , by whom it was re-delivered to me . Mr. Gwyn having seiz'd Papers at my Lod Shaftsbury's house brought them to the Council-Office , and put them into one of the Rooms , and lock'd the Door , and deliver'd the Key to me . When I was order'd by the Committee of Examinations , I fetch'd up the Trunks and Papers , and brought them into the Council-Chamber , and the Trunks were opened in the presence of some of the Lords of the Council , and in the presence of Mr. Wilson , who was appointed to attend there on the behalf of my Lord of Shaftsbury , and he was always present when the Papers were taken out of the Trunks and Bags : This was one Paper , and was taken out upon the 6th . of July in the presence of Mr. Wilson , who took particular notice of this Paper , as may appear by his own hand . The Trunk was Sealed , it was a great Trunk , and it was open'd in the presence of Mr. Samuel Wilson and Mr. Starkey , who were both appointed by my Lord of Shaftsbury . L. C. J. Was this Paper found in one of those Trunks or Boxes that was deliver'd to you by Mr. Gwyn ? Mr. Blathwait . This Paper was taken out of a Velvet Bag which Mr. Gwyn had put into the great Trunk , which Trunk was Sealed and opened in the presence of Mr. Wilson and Mr. Starkey . Sir Fr. Withins . Did you find that Paper in the Trunk ? Blaithwait . I took this and others out of the Velvet Bag which was in the great Trunk . L. C. J. Call Mr. Gwyn to give an account where he found these Papers . Look you Gentlemen of the Jury , you hear what his Evidence is , would you ask him any thing while he is here ? Then Mr. Gwyn coming in , L. C. J. Where had you the Trunk you delivered to Mr. Blaithwait ? Gwyn . My Lord , on the second of July by a Warrant from the Secretary I was commanded to go to my Lord Shaftsbury's House to Search his Papers , I did there meet with a great many Papers , and I took a Note how I had parted them , and into what parcels I had put the Papers ; there were several sorts of them in a great Hair Trunk , and there was a Velvet Bag in which I put some Papers that were loose in my Lords Closet above stairs . My Lord Shaftsbury as soon as I came , gave me the Keys , and told me where his Closets were , and said he would Seal them up with his own Seal : I staid for it , but he sent me word by a Gentleman that I might put my own Seal if I pleased : I did put my Seal upon the Trunk , but afterwards being sent another way , I delivered it to this Gentleman Mr. Blaithwait : whether any of the Papers were taken out afterwards I cannot tell . L. C. J. Mr. Gwyn , that your Evidence may be the better understood , tell me , were all the Papers that were in that Velvet Bag in my Lord Shaftsbury's Closet ? Mr. Gwyn . In my Lord Shaftsbury's Closet above-stairs . L. C. J. This you swear ; when you delivered it to Mr. Blaithwait , all the Papers were in that Bag ; was there nothing in that Bag , but what you took in my Lord Shafsbury's Closet ? Gwyn . Nothing , my Lord. L. C. J. Look you Gentlemen , you do observe that this Paper was put into the Bag by Mr. Gwyn , and Mr. Blaithwait Swears he found it in the Bag , and delivered it to Mr. Secretary Jenkins ; therefore if you please Mr. Secretary Jenkins you shall be Sworn whether that Paper was delivered to you by Mr. Blaithwait , because we would clear it as we go , whether that be the Paper was delivered to Mr. Secretary Jenkins by Mr. Blaithwait : I pray Sir , was that the Paper that Mr. Blathwait did deliver into your hands ? Mr. Sec. Jenkins . My Lord this is the Paper , this Paper was delivered into my hands by Mr. Blathwait in the Council-Chamber . I cannot say that this numerical Paper was taken out of the Velvet Bag ; but there were a great many Papers taken out of it , and I having the honor to be at the Examination of the Papers ; this was ordered to be put ( and was put ) into my hands with nine Papers more . L. C. J. Was it out of your hands ? Mr. Sec. Jenkins . It was out of my hands ; for upon Monday last I took out the nine Papers intrusted with me , and this tenth out of my Desk , and caused my Servant to mark them by numbers . Then I Sealed up these Papers and sent them to Mr. Graham , Mr. Graham brought them back again to me without any alteration whatsoever ; then I put this tenth Paper into the hands of Mr. Blathwait again . All the while it was in my hands , it was under Lock and Key , and none of my Servants saw it , but the time it was Numbred ; and no manner of alteration was made in this , or any other of the nine Papers . Lord Chief-Justice . Now it appears this was the Paper taken in my Lord Shaftsbury's Closet . Then this Paper was Read as followeth . WE the Knights , &c. finding to the grief of our Hearts , the Popish Priests and Jesuits , with the Papists and their Adherents and Abettors have for several years last past pursued a most pernicious and hellish Plot , to root out the True Protestant Religion as a pestilent Heresie , to take away the Life of our Gracious King , to subvert our Laws and Liberties , and to set up Arbitrary Power and Popery . And it ▪ being notorious that they have been highly encouraged by the Countenance and Protection given and procured for them by J. D. of Y. and by their Expectations of his Succeeding to the Crown , and that through crafty Popish Councils his Designs have so far prevailed , that he hath created many and great Dependents upon him by his bestowing Offices and Preferments both in Church and State. It appearing also to us , That by his Influence Mercenary Forces have been levied and kept on foot for his secret Designs contrary to our Laws ; the Officers thereof having been named and appointed by him , to the apparent hazard of his Majesties Person , our Religion and Government , if the danger had not been timely foreseen by several Parliaments , and part of those Forces with great difficulty , caused by them to be disbanded at the Kingdoms great Expence : And it being evident , that notwithstanding all the continual endeavours of the Parliament to deliver his Majesty from the Councils , and out of the Power of the said D. yet his Interest in the Ministry of State and others have been so prevalent , that Parliaments have been unreasonably Prorogued and Dissolved when they have been in hot pursuit of the Popish Conspiracies , and ill Ministers of State their Assistants . And that the said D. in order to reduce all into his own power hath procured the Garrisons , the Army and Ammunition , and all the power of the Seas and Soldiery , and Lands belonging to these three Kingdoms to be put into the hands of his Party and their Adherents , even in opposition to the Advice and Order of the last Parliament . And as we considering with heavy Hearts how greatly the Strength , Reputation and Treasure of the Kingdom both at Sea and Land is Wasted and Consumed , and lost by the intricate expensive management of these wicked destructive Designs ; and finding the same Councils after exemplary Justice upon some of the Conspirators , to be still pursued with the utmost devilish Malice , and desire of Revenge ; whereby his Majesty is in continual hazard of being Murdered to make way for the said D.'s Advancement to the Crown , and the whole Kingdom in such case is destitute of all Security of their Religion , Laws , Estates , and Liberty , sad experience in the Case , Queen Mary having proved the wisest Laws to be of little force to keep out Popery and Tyranny under a Popish Prince . We have ▪ therefore endeavoured in a Parliamentary way by a Bill for the purpose to Bar and Exclude the said Duke from the Succession to the Crown , and to Banish him for ever out of these Kingdoms of England and Ireland . But the first means of the King and Kingdoms Safety being utterly rejected , and we left almost in Despair of obtaining any real and effectual security , and knowing our selves to be intrusted to Advise and Act for the preservation of His Majesty and the Kingdom , and being persuaded in our Consciences that the dangers aforesaid are so eminent and pressing , that there ought to be no delay of the best means that are in our power to secure the Kingdom against them . We have thought fit to propose to all true Protestants an Vnion amongst themselves by solemn aad sacred promise of mutual Defence and Assistance in the preservation of the true Protestant Religion , His Majesties Person and Royal State and our Laws , Liberties and Properties , and we hold it our bounden Duty to joyn our selves for the same intent in a Declaration of our Vnited Affections and Resolutions in the Form insuing . I A. B. Do in the presence of God solemnly Promise , Uow , and Protest to maintain and defend to the utmost of my Power , with my Person and Estate , the true Protestant Religion , against Popery and all Popish Superstition , Idolatry , or Innovation , and all those who do or shall endeavour to spread or advance it within this Kingdom . I will also , as far as in me lies , Maintain and Defend His Majesties Royal Person and Estate ; as also the Power and Priviledg of Parliaments , the lawful Rights and Liberties of the Subject against all Incroachments and Usurpation of Arbitrary power whatsoever , and endeavour entirely to Disband all such Mercenary Forces as we have reason to believe were Raised to Advance it ; and are still kept up in and about the City of London , to the great Amazement and Terror of all the good People of the Land. Moreover J. D. of Y. having publickly professed and owned the Popish Religion , and notoriously given Life and Birth to the Damnable and Hellish Plots of the Papists against his Majesties Person , the Protestant Religion , and the Government of this Kingdom ; I will never consent that the said J. D. of Y. or any other , who is or hath been a Papist , or any ways adher'd to the Papists in their wicked Designs , be admitted to the Succession of the Crown of England ; But by all lawful means and by force of Arms , if need so require , according to my Abilities , will oppose him , and endeavour to Subdue , Expel and Destroy him , if he come into England , or the Dominions thereof , and seek by force to set up his pretended Title , and all such as shall Adhere unto him , or raise any War , Tumult , or Sedition for him , or by his Command , as publick Enemies of our Laws , Religion and Country . To this end we and every one of us whose hands are here under-written , do most willingly bind our selves and every one of us unto the other joyntly and severally , in the Bond of one firm and loyal Society or Association , and do promise and vow before God , That with our joynt and particular Forces we will oppose and pursue unto Destruction all such as upon any Title whatsoever shall oppose the Just and Righteous Ends of this Association , and Maintain , Protect and Defend all such as shall enter into it in the just performance of the true intent and meaning of it . And left this just and pious work should be any ways obstructed or hindered for want of Discipline and Conduct , or any evil minded persons under pretence of raising Forces for the service of this Association , should attempt or commit Disorders ; we will follow such Orders as we shall from time to time receive from this present Parliament , whilst it shall be sitting , or the Major part of the Members of both Houses subscribing this Association , when it shall be Prorogued or Dissolved : and obey such Officers as shall by them be set over us in the several Countreys , Cities , and Burroughs , until the next meeting of this or another Parliament ; and will then shew the same Obedience and Submission unto it , and those who shall be of it . Neither will we for any respect of Persons or Causes , or for Fear , or Reward separate our selves from this Association , or fail in the Prosecution thereof during our Lives , upon pain of being by the rest of us prosecuted , and suppressed as Perjur'd Persons , and Publick Enemies to God , the King , and our Native Countrey . To which Pains and Punishments we do voluntarily submit our selves , and everyone of us without benefit of any Colour or Pretence to excuse us . In Witness of all which Premisses to be inviolably kept , we do to this present Writing put our Hands and Seals , and shall be most ready to accept and admit any others hereafter into this Society and Association . Sir Fr. Withins . This Paper is very plausibly penned in the beginning , and goes a great way so , but in the last clause but one , there they come to perfect levying of War ; for they do positively say , they will obey such Officers as either the Parliament or the major part of them , or after the Parliament is dissolved , the major part of those that shall subscribe this Paper shall appoint ; they will obey all such Officers . Foreman . Pray what date is this Paper of ? Sir Fr. Withins . It was after the Bill for the Exclusion of the Duke of York , for it says that way failing , they would do it by force . Foreman . There is no hand to it at all ? Sir Fr. Withins . No , none at all . One thing I had forgot , That they would joyn to destroy the Mercenary Forces about London , which is down-right levying of War against the King and his Guards . Mr. Sanders . The design of it is pretended to oppose Popery and Arbitrary power , and destroy the Papists ; but that doth not seem so much in its self : but when you have heard the Evidence you will hear who were the Papists that were to be destroyed by this Army . John Booth . Jury . He has stood in the face of the Court all this while . L. C. J. When did Mr. Booth come down ? Jury . He was here before we went up , my Lord , and hath been here ever since . L. C. J. Look ye , Gentlemen , they tell you he was carried away , and came down but now . Mr. Booth . No my Lord , I came down but now . Mr. Shepherd . My Lord , we desire a List of their Names , that we might know who is here , and who is not . Mr. Godfrey . This man hath been here all this while , and all the others may be here , for ought that I know . Sir. Fr. Withins . In the first place give an account what discourse you have had with my Lord Shaftsbury . L. C. J. Speak out that the Jury may hear you . Booth . I will speak as loud as I can . In the month of January , about the middle of January last , I was introduc'd into my Lord Shaftsbury's acquaintance by one Captain Henry Wilkinson . I say I was introduc'd into my Lord Shaftsbury's acquaintance by one Captain Henry Wilkinson . This Captain Wilkinson is a Yorkshire Gentleman , he has known me above twenty years , and he and I have had familiar conversation a long while ; so waiting upon my Lord Shaftsbury , our first business that we went about was , Captain Wilkinson did pretend to receive a Commission from my Lord Shaftsbury , and some others of the Lords Proprietors of the Palatinate of Carolina to be their Deputy-Governor ; and he told me the prospect of that Journey was like to be very hopeful , and that his interest was good , and that he could procure me a Commission , and such a number of Acres for quality and quantity as I did desire : and he said he did not design to go over immediately in his own person , but he would send his eldest Son , and his youngest Son , and if he went , he would return again as occasion should serve . I consented to him in all this , and we discours'd it divers times together , and we went to my Lord Shaftsbury on purpose to receive Commissions in order to this purpose . The first time I went there was the Earl of Craven , Peter Colbert , one Archdell a Quaker ; I thought him a Quaker because he kept his Hat on , when the rest of the Lords stood bare in civility to him . We discours'd the thing about Carolina . After this , and before , Captain Wilkinson and I had several discourses about the juncture of Affairs in these times , tho I knew him to be an old Royallist , and one that served his Majesty and his late Father very much in the Wars ; yet being under great disappointments of Preferments at Court , and missing the Reward he expected from the King , his heart was turned another way , and he had repented himself of those Services he had done for the King , and was become a man of another Opinion ; and there was some inducements upon me that I was inclin'd to the same opinion : so he express'd himself to my Lord , and so from one thing to another we went on in discourse , and related the several Parliaments , and the Proroguing them , and the Disappointments of the People , and the fear of Popery and Arbitrary Power : and this was not done once , nor twice , nor ten times ; for I cannot enumerate them , for we kept a continual Club , and convers'd together familiarly near three quarters of a year . After this first acquaintance with my Lord Shaftsbury at his house , I did frequently go with Captain Wilkinson , and between Christmass and March four or five times : and I observed this , that when we came to my Lord Shaftsbury's they were cautious in our accession : In the first place it was to be known by some of the Servants , who he was in company with : And in the second place the names were sent up , who they were , that were to speak with him : Sometimes we had an Alehouse at the Bell in the same Street : ( I forget the name of the Street ) we staid at the Alehouse till we had a sit time , Captain Wilkinson had acquaintance with his Porter and his Gentleman of his Chamber : and so we often discours'd . And from the concerns of Carolina we fell to matters more publick concerning the State. I remember he would use to inveigh sharply against the times , and look upon himself as not so valued , nor so respected , nor in those places and dignities as he expected he should be , and seem'd to be discontented , and he did fear that Popery would be introduced , and Arbitrary Power : and when Parliament-men were to be Elected , there came every week news , bringing particulars of such Boroughs and Counties as had made particular Elections for Members for Parliament ; whether Knights , Citizens , or Burgesses : And he would often consider that Parliament that was to sit at Oxford , what they were as to their Inclinations and Dispositions : and he said , they would iusist upon the same things the other Parliaments before had done . Particularly he said the Parliament would never grant the King any assistance of Money , nor satisfie him in those things that he desired , unless he gave the people first satisfaction in those things that they insisted on before , and he believed would insist upon after ; and particularly the Bill of Excluding the Duke of York from the Crown : another was the abolishing the Statute of the 35th . of Elizabeth : and the third was giving his Royal Assent for the Passing a new Bill whereby all Dissenting Protestants , Nonconformists , or what you will term them , should be freed from those Penalties and Ecclesiastick Punishments that they are subject to by the present Establisht Law : and he said , if these and some other wholesome Laws and Bills were past by the Royal Assent of the King , he believed that when the people had received this Security and Satisfaction , that they would be very willing to grant the King such accommodations of Money by way of Assessment , or so , as his necessary occasions should also require : but without this he believed , there would be a breach between the King and the Parliament , and that they had order'd the Parliament should meet at Oxford , and not at this Metropolis at London , where they might go on without fear of being over-awed : that this was an intention to awe the Parliament . But he said , himself and divers Noble Lords , and Members of the House of Commons had considered themselves and their own safety , and that they judg'd it dangerous to go to Oxford , where they were sure the Guards , the Retinue of the Court , and the Assistance of the Scholars ( which usually incline to the Crown ) might so over-awe the Parliament , that they might not so freely proceed in a way for the publick Good as they intended ; and therefore he and others had consider'd with themselves , that it were fit for them to have Guards and send them thither ; and to this purpose he had establisht a matter of fifty men , persons of Quality , that he believed would have men along with them ; and he intrusted Captain Henry Wilkinson with the Command of these men , and they were to come to Oxford at such a time , and if there were any breach between the King and the Parliament , or any Violence offer'd to any of these Members by the Guards , or Retinue of the Court , that then these men with others that other Lords had provided , should repel his Force , by greater Force , and should purge the Guards of all the Papists and Tories , and such as were against the Protestant Religion , and the Establisht Laws of the Land ; and likewise these men should be ready to assist himself , and those other persons in his Confederacy , to purge from the King those Evil Counsellors which were about him : particularly there were named , the Earl of Worcester , my Lord Clarendon , my Lord Hallifax , my Lord Feversham , and Mr. Hide , now Lord Viscount Hide ; and these persons were look'd upon to be dangerous , and gave the King evil Advice , and made him continue so very deaf to what the Parliament urg'd him to ; and therefore they said they would not only purge the Guards , and repel that Force by a greater Force , but also take those Lords by Violence from the King , and bring the King to London , to the chief Metropolitan City , where those things should be establisht , which they design'd for their safety in these two respects , for the preserving the Protestant Religion , and likewise for the keeping and defending us safe from Arbitrary Power and Government . Upon this Captain Wilkinson did desire me that I would be one of those under his Command : this I did consent to . And he requested me further , that I would provide for my self Horse and Arms ; and likewise Arms for my man , and he would provide me a Horse for my Man. I did accordingly provide Arms for my self , and a good Stone-Horse for my self , and Arms for my Man before the Parliament did sit at Oxford . I think the 23d . of March , I do not punctually remember the day , and when the Parliament was set , we enquir'd and heard how things went on , and found that it was as my Lord Shaftsbury had predicted , that the Parliament did insist upon those very things that he told they would do , but never believ'd or imagin'd they would be so soon dissolv'd . Upon Thursday before the Parliament was dissolv'd , Captain Wilkinson told me he expected that very Week to have a Summons to go up to Oxford with those men that were listed with him ; but then Saturdays news came of the Dissolution of the Parliament , and therefore it took no further effect . The whole matter , the main design was this , That my Lord Shaftsbury should have so many men to attend him there for the security of his person , and likewise to repel the force of the Kings Guards , or any other persons that followed the King ; and also to remove from him those five Lords and bring the King back to London , to Establish those Laws that I have mention'd . Sir Francis Withins . Pray what time did you discover this ? Booth . About six weeks ago . Sir Francis Withins . Had you any discourse with the Earl of Shaftsbury after Captain Wilkinson spoke with you , or before the sitting of the Parliament . Booth . I said before that the first motion of these fifty men that were to be my Lord Shaftsbury's Guard came from Captain Wilkinson ; but after this when I went with Captain Wilkinson to my Lord Shaftsbury , the same thing was discoursed there . The last time I was with my Lord Shaftsbury was about a week before he went to Oxford , about ten days before the Parliament set , or a week , and then I heard the same discourse from my Lord Shaftsbury's own mouth . Sir Fr. Withins . Had you any other discourse with my Lord Shaftsbury ? Booth . I say I made three or four Visits between Christmass and March , and we had discourse every time particularly about the Kings person , and if the King did refuse these motions , that then these men were to be taken from him , and he repell'd with a greater force , and be brought to it by force . Sir Fr. Withins . Did you ever make any solicitation to any to make this Discovery ? Booth . Thus far I did , and I will tell you the whole matter in that point ; there was one Walter Banes an acquaintance of mine , and I found that he had at Wilkinson's request engaged himself in some business that one Brownrig an Attorney in Yorkshire had writ to him about , concerning some men that were to Swear against my Lord Shaftsbury . I asked Mr. Banes what men these were , he said , he thought they were Irish-men . I said , I don't know what Conversation in that nature my Lord Shaftsbury might have with Irish-men , for I know none of them ; but I am satisfied that he had Conversation tending to these ends that you speak of with some English-men , and that I know . This Mr. Banes did take particular notice of , and he was very frequently upon me to tell him what the matter was , and I gave him some intimation of it . Truly 't was very much upon my spirit , and I could not tell whether I was able to carry it through or not , or had better to let it alone as it was in silence : but discoursing still more with him , and at the result of that discourse we had by degrees , I did give him some intimation of it . And after that upon second thoughts I took a resolution to discover it : and when I did discover it , I do here in the presence of God declare , that no mortal did know any thing of what I had to say , in reference to the King ; nor did I make any more applications in the world , but took Pen , Ink , and Paper , and writ it down , and sealed it under a Cover and sent it to the Council . Sir Fr. Withins . Gentlemen of the Jury , would you ask him any Questions ? Mr. Papillon . The Jury told your Lordship before , that after all had been examin'd they would consider what Questions . L. C. J. Where would you have these Witnesses that have been examined to stand ? Mr. Papillon . We leave it to the Sheriffs to appoint a place for them . Lord Chief Justice . To keep them apart it 's utterly impossible , for we must have as many Rooms then as there are Witnesses . Jury . Let one man keep with them . L. C. J. Empty that place where they were the last time , and let them stand there . Edward Turberville . Sir Francis Withins . Mr. Turberville , have you had any discourse with my Lord Shaftsbury ? Turberville . Yes several times . In February last , I am not positive in the time , but about the beginning of the Month , I waited upon my Lord Shaftsbury , about some moneys . I waited upon him to have his Advice how I might come by 't , and to gain my Lord Shaftsbury's Letter in my behalf to the President of the Council to stand my friend ; and he said there was little good to be had from the King , as long as his Guards were about him ; for were it not for his Guards , we would quickly go down to Whitehal and obtain what terms we thought fit . Said I , my Lord , I suppose his Guards can't defend him from the whole Kingdom . His Lordship said , That the Rabble were all of that side , especially the People about Wapping , and Aldersgate-street ; and the Rich men of the City would Vote for Elections ; but they could not expect they should stand by them in case there should be any Disturbance , for they valued their Riches more than their Cause . And at Oxford I heard my Lord say again , He wonder'd the people of England should stickle so much about Religion , and that if he were to choose a Religion , he would have one that should comply with what was apt to carry on their Cause . Mr. Sanders . Had you any other discourse with him at any other time ? Master Turberville . I told you all that is material that I can say to it . John Smith . Mr. Smith . My Lord , I only beg a word or two from your Lordship of some reflections cast upon me . L. C. J. Go to your Evidence . Mr. Smith . My Lord , this is something to my Evidence . L. C. J. You may take another time for that . Mr. Smith . My Lord , it hath been reported about in Coffee-houses and Taverns , that I should Swear there was a general Design against his Majesty ; and that I Swore it before the King and Secretary of State ; and that I also Swore it at the Tryal of Mr. College and Mr. Rowse : I take it upon my Oath I never Swore any such thing , neither can I Swear there was a General Design by the City , or the Parliament against the King. Lord Chief Justice . Speak what discourse you have had with my Lord Shaftsbury . Mr. Smith . My Lord , I suppose it is past all doubt , that I have been very often with my Lord Shaftsbury ; and I have often in his discourse observed that he spake very irreverently and slightly of the King ; sometimes saying he was a Weak man , and sometimes saying he was an Inconstant man ; a Man of no firm or settled Resolution ; and a Man that was easily led by the Nose , as his Father was before him , by a Popish Queen , which was the Ruine of his Father : This was both in publick and in private . I have also observed sometimes in his discourse , something that he mention'd of the Earl of Essex ; and that the King should declare , That the Earl of Shaftsbury was not satisfied to be an ill man himself , but got over the Earl of Essex too : This the Earl of Shaftsbury declar'd publickly in his own house . Another story was of the Rebellion of Scotland , That the King should say that the Earl of Shaftsbury was the chief Promoter of that Rebellion ; and when this was told my Lord Shaftsbury , that he should send word back again to the King , I am glad ( says he ) that the King sees not his own Danger , nor what he runs himself into : and pray tell him , that , if I were to raise a Rebellion , I could raise anotherguess Rebellion than the Rebellion was in Scotland . But now as to the particular points I am to charge him with , I remember my Lord , that my Lord Shaftsbury sent for me one time , and that by one Manly ; sometimes they call him Major Manly , sometimes Captain Manly ; and this man found me at Mr. Bethel's Club in Newgate-street at the Queens Arms ; and there he told me my Lord Shaftsbury would speak with me that night . I immediately left the Club , and went to my Lord Shaftsbury's ; and I was introduc'd into the Dining Room , where there were two Gentlemen in discourse with my Lord ; and as soon as he saw me , he askt me how I did : I told him I was very well , and came in obedience to his Lordships Command to wait upon him ; for Major Manly told me your Lordship had a mind to speak with me : he said he had . Soon afterward , these two Gentlemen went away . Upon this my Lord turns about , Mr. Smith , said he , Mr. Hetherington was with me this morning , and told me he was afraid that the Irish Witnesses would go over to the Court Party , and retract what they had said formerly . My Lord , says I , I know no person can better and with more ease , hinder that than your Lordship , by procuring some small Allowance for them ; for they complain much of Poverty . Says he , Master Hetherington has the charge of them , and hath a special care of them , and I believe they don't want . My Lord , says I , I know nothing of that , he knows what provision he hath made for them . This is the thing , said my Lord , that I would have you do , they stand in great awe of you , and you must persuade them from going nigh that Rogue Fitz-Gerrald , that great Villain , that is pamper'd up , and maintain'd by the King and the Court Party , to stifle the Plot in Ireland . My Lord , says 〈◊〉 do you think the King would be at such vast charges for to bring over Witnesses , and at last maintain men to stifle this Plot , for that is the way to stifle the Plot in England too , as well as that . Sayes he , what is this Frequent Dissolutions and Prorogations of Parliaments for , but to stifle the Plot here , and to hinder the Lords in the Tower to come to a Tryal ? This is a strange thing my Lord , said I , when he gave Dr. Oats , Mr. Bedlow and Mr. Dugdale such large allowances to prosecute this Plot. Sayes my Lord , that is nothing , that may hold for a year or two , he may take it off when he will , but the chief means are put by whereby we might find out the depth of this Plot , and if Mr. Dugdale and Dr. Oates be knock't on the head , then where is this Plot ? then there will come an Act of Oblivion for them , and all things will be well as they were before . My Lord , said I , this is very strange to me . I can give you instance of it , sayes he , when I was lately in the Tower , I told some I saw Popery coming in , and that it was hard to prevent it . I am sorry to hear it , said I , but what would you have me do with these Irish Witnesses ? Say's he , perswade them not to go near White-hall , nor this Fitzgerrald . And , said he , one thing more , I would have you mind , Mr. Smith , that if the King were not as well satisfied with the coming in of Popery as ever the D. of York was , do you think the D. of York would be so much concern'd in the bringing in of Popery as he is ? I am sorry for it , my Lord if it be so , After this I parted with my Lord Shaftsbury , with full instructions from him to those Irish Witnesses . I met Mr. Hetherington the next morning , and I told him that I was with my Lord Shaftsbury : sayes he , I know your business and would have you meet us at the Sun Tavern in the Afternoon . My Lord , I went according to the time appointed , and met him at the Sun Tavern between 6 , or 7 , or 8 of the Clock , as near as I can remember . When I came to them I began to open those great and horrid Crimes that I heard Mr. Fitzgerrald accused of , That he was a man came to discover a Plot , and disowned it here , and retracted all he had said . I told them what a Crime this was . In short , my Lord , they promised never to go near the man. I parted that night and came to my Lodging , and the next morning Mr. Hetherington and one Mr. Bernard Dennis came to my Lodging and told me , That this Bernard Dennis , was ready to give in Information against Fitzgerrald , that he had tamper'd with him to forswear all he had sworn before . I went presently with Mr. Hetherington and Mr. Dennis to my Lord Major , who was then Sir Patience Ward ; after we had told the business to Sir Patience Ward , Sir Patience ask't this Dennis if there were any other persons present . Yes , sayes he , there was . Sayes Sir Patience , you are upon your Oath , if you know not the Nature of an Oath , I will tell you . The Information was drawn up ; the Copy of this Information I carry'd to my Lord Shaftsbury and shew'd it him , he read it , and was very well pleas'd with it , and said , Mr. Smith , don't you see the Villany of that man and that factious Party , and that the King runs the same Steps as his Father did before him , how can any thing of this Nature be done without the King and the Court pamper'd him up ? My Lord , said I , I think now the thing is clear . I , sayes he , these are the very same Steps that his Father followed when he was led by his Popish Queen , and the poor man doth not see his Danger . I parted from my Lord , and came , and gave an account of this very discourse to the Club in Newgatestreet , and they were glad of it , and I told what my Lord Shaftsbury said , That the King would never be quiet till he came to his Fathers end , he follow'd the same steps . Another thing that I have observ'd particularly before the Parliament went to Oxford , I went to see him , and wee fell into some discourse , and my Lord said there was great preparations made , and a great many gather'd together upon the Road between London and Oxford . My Lord , said I , what is the meaning of that ? Any body may see , say's he , that is only to terrifie the Parliament to comply with the King's desire , which I am sure the Parliament never will , for we are as resolute now as ever ; and more resolute , for we see clearly what the King Aims at , and that is to bring in Popery . Which I told several years ago , and when I was last in the Tower ; but , sayes he , we have this advantage of him , if he offer any Violence to us , ( For we expect it , ) that we have the Nation for us , and we may lawfully oppose him , and he will meet with a very strong opposition ; for all that come out of the Countrey , shall be well Hors'd and well Arm'd , and so we shall be all , and here is the City which now has a question in Debate among them , whether they shall bear the charge of their own Members or no , but they are willing to do it , and send so many men to wait on them , and if we oppose the King , as we may do , for it hath been done in former times , the whole Nation is to stand by us , and as I said when I was in the Tower , I would dye , before I would ever bring in Popery or any thing of that Nature . Jury . Repeat that again . Smith . He said ▪ that the King , if he offer'd any Violence at Oxford to the Parliament , he would meet with a strong opposition , and that the Gentlemen that came out of the Country were well provided with Horse , Arms , and Men , to oppose him , and that they might lawfully do it if the King offered any Violence to them whilst they sat , and that the Nation stood by them , and that they did represent the Nation ▪ and that for his part he and all his Friends would do it to the utmost of their Power , and , as Old as he was , he would be one that would oppose it to his power . My Lord , said I , we can expect nothing but Confusion , from this Parliament in this Nature , for then we shall be involved in another Civil-War , nothing else can put an end to our Miseries , or make this Nation a settled Nation , but a Civil-War . Then my Lord said I , by this means wee shall make an end of Monarchy , or else inslave the Nation to Popery for ever . No doubt of one say's he , but we are sure of one ▪ for the Nation is of our side , and the City you know how they are , and where ever they Strike , I am sure the Nation will , and this I 'le stand and dye by . This is the substance of what I have to say against my Lord Shaftsbury , and upon the Oath I have taken , I am sure I have not added a Word . One Word more I have to say , 'T is reported I have been hired and Suborn'd , I do admire why this City of London , where there are as worthy men , and as great Lovers of the King and Government as any in the World , should say any such thing ; I was never Suborn'd by them , nor never took a farthing of their money , nor never took a farthing of the King in my life . L. C. J. Who supposes it ? Mr. Smith . 'T is in print , my Lord , 't was in the Book that came out last night , it is suppos'd , my Lord , for it is in print . L. C. J. I had reason to expect that there was no such objection . Brian Haines . Mr. Sanders . Give your knowledge of what discourse you have heard concerning my Lord Shaftsbury . Mr. Haines . Sir , I have heard him Villifie the King very often , and he told me about the Narrative that I made about Sir Edmond-Bury Godfrey's death , Mr. Ivey and I went to him one day and he spoke to me of it , and I desired him not to expose my person to the King's Anger , for I was sure he would never grant a pardon to any man that impeached the Earl of Danby . Say's he , Do not fear , if he doth not grant you a pardon , he makes himself the Author of the Plot ; and ▪ say's he , the Earl of Essex ; my Lord Maxfield and I , wee do all resolve if you put in writing , we will go to the King , and beg a pardon of his Majesty for you , and if he doth not grant it , we will raise the whole Kingdom against him ; for , say's he , he must not expect to live peaceably in his Throne , if he doth not grant it . For he makes himself author of the Plot. My Lord , said I , he hath dissolved so many Parliaments for the sake of the Earl of Danby , and prorogued so many Parliaments , therefore he will never grant me this Pardon . Say's he , doe not fear , 't is the best pretence we can have in the world , and if you will but put in writing , and let me read it , that I may give my opinion of it , the work is done ; and if he doth not do it , we are prepar'd to raise Arms against him . I was with him another time after I made this Narrative , and he told me the two Mr. Godfrey's were with the King at Windsor , and begged a pardon of his Majesty for me , but the King would not grant it , but if he be an honest man , let him lye at my mercy , let him come in and declare what he knows . Said I , I would not have your Lordship expose my cause in these day's . This is the best time for it in the world , say's he , if he doth not do it , he can't expect to be long King of England . Pray my Lord said I , what shall I do in the mean time ? I will go beyond ▪ Sea , said I. No , sayes he , don't leave the Kingdom , he dares as well be hang'd as meddle with you . I desir'd him a second time not to expose me to the King's fury , and I prayed him to help me to a little money to go beyond Sea , for I was sure I could not be safe in England . Sayes he , Have a care of your self ; but , sayes he , he dares as well be hang'd as meddle with you . Then I was in close conference with him one day , and I gave him so exact an account of all Transactions from King Charles the First 's Reign , the commencement or coming to the Crown to this very day , that he was mightily satisfied , finding by me that I was a Traveller , he was mightily pleased , and free with me . Pray my Lord , what Model do you take , or intend to do ? Sayes he , Do you not think but there are Families in England , that have as great pretences to the Crown as the King ? Sayes he , there is the Duke of Bucks in the right of his Mother , she was descended from Edward , one of the Edwards , and in her Right he claimes the Barony of Ross , he hath as great a Right to the Crown of England , as ever any Stewart of them all . Jury . Speak that again . Mr. Haines . I was in Conference with my Lord Shaftsbury one day , and I gave him an exact account of all Transactions , and I asked what they did intend to do with the Government , if they pull'd the King down . Sayes he , Do you think there are no Families in England , that have as much pretence to the Crown as any of the Stewarts ? I know none my Lord , sayes he , there is the Duke of Bucks that is descended of the Family of the Plantagenets ; he named some of the Edwards , and in her right he should have the Barony of Ross , and in her Right he has as good a Title to the Crown of England as ever any Stewart had . John Macnamarra Sworn . Sir Francis Withins . Pray give an account to the Jury of what discourse you have had with my Lord Shaftsbury . John Macnamarra . My Lord , I was with my Lord Shaftsbury a little before he went to Oxford , before the Parliament sat there , and my Lord told me at that time , that he would take care , together with those that were with him at Oxford , for the Witnesses that were concerned in the Popish Plot. Mr. Harrison . Speak out pray Sir. John Macnamarra . My Lord told me he would take care , with those that were with him , for the Witnesses that were concern'd in the Popish Plot ; after my Lord went to Oxford , I writ him a Letter , giving his Lordship to understand , That whereas his Lordship was pleased to promise , that he would take care of the Witnesses , that he would be pleased to take care of me , as well as the rest of the Witnesses ; after my Lord came home from Oxford , I went to him , to see what was done . His Lordship was pleased to express himself and say , That the King was Popishly affected and did adhere to Popery , and that he took the same methods that his Father before him took , which brought his Father's Head to the block , and we will also bring his thither ; and told me also , That he told some Persons of Quality that this would fall out Five years before ; at the same time my Lord told me , That there was a Collection of Money made , and that the meeting was at the Sun Tavern , and that there came a Tory Lord in to hinder their proceedings , but sayes he , we do remove to Iron-monger-Lane , and sayes he , you shall hear further in a fortnight . I came to my Lord a fortnight afterwards , and his Lordship was pleased to tell me , that there was provision made for the Witnesses , and that it was in the hand of one Mr. Rowse that was Servant to Sir Thomas Player ; there was one Mr. Ivey , and I think my Brother was by too , when his Lordship spake these words ; he said that the King was a Faithlessman , that there was no Credit to be given to him , and that the Dutchess of Mazarine was his Cabinet Council , who was the worst of Woman-kind . This is all that I have to say , my Lord. Sir Francis Withins . Do you remember nothing at any other time ? John Macnamarra . No. Sir Francis Withins . Did you hear any thing about deposing the King ? John Macnamarra . Yes , he did at the same time say , the King deserved to be deposed as much as ever King Richard the Second did . Dennis Macnamarra . Mr. Sanders . Tell these Gentlemen whether you have had any discourse with the Earl of Shaftsbury . Dennis Macnamarra . He said , my Lord , that the King was a man that ought not to be believed , and there was no belief in him , and that he ought to be deposed as well as King Richard the Second , and that the Dutchess of Mazarine was one of his Cabinet Council , and that he did nothing but by her Advice . Sir Francis Withins . Begin again . L. C. J. Raise your voice a little , for the Jury don't hear you . Dennis Macnamarra . That the King is a man that ought not to be believed , that there was no belief in him , and that he ought to be deposed as well as King Richard the 2d . and that the Dutchess of Mazarine was his Cabinet Council , and that he did nothing but by her consent . L. C. J. Who was with you at that time ? Dennis Macnamarra . There was Mr. Ivey , and my Brother at his own House . L. C. J. When was this ? Dennis Macnamarra . 'T was at the latter end of March or the beginning of April . Sir Francis Withins . You say Mr. Ivey was by at the same time ? Dennis Macnamarra . Yes . Sir Francis Withins . Call Mr. Ivey . Jury . What place was it in ? D. Macnamarra . In his own house . Edward Ivey sworn . Mr. Ivey . My Lord , soon after the Parliament was dissolv'd at Oxford , I was at my Lord Shaftsbury's house , where he was speaking against the King , and said , that he was an unjust man , and unfit to Reign , and that he was a Papist in his heart , and would introduce Popery . Jury . Say that again . Mr. Ivey . I tell you I was at my Lord Shaftsbury's house , where he was then speaking against the King , saying that he was altogether unjust and not fit to Reign , and he wonder'd he did not take example by his Father before him . and did really believe that he was a Papist in his heart , and intended to introduce Popery . I was sometime after with him and I told him one Haines had told me he had something to discover about the death of Sir Edmond-bury Godfrey and several other things , and my Lord desired to see him , and I brought Mr. Haines to his house , and he desired him that what he had to say he would put in Writing , and he should have a Pardon , and that if the King did deny it , as he dares not deny it , but if he does , we will rise upon him and force him ? Sir Francis Withins . Had you any other discourse , at other times ? Mr Ivey . Yes , I had other discourse but not to this purpose . Sir Francis Withins . Was you frequently with him ? Mr. Ivey , I was frequently with him ; he desir'd at the time I was with him to bid Colledge to come to him , and I went and came again to Haines with instructions how to proceed , and I took his examination of him , and carry'd it to my Lord , and he desired it might be explain'd what he meant by the Tall Black-Man , and says he , if he does mean the King , he must explain himself , and speak of the King , or the Duke of York or the rest , and if he does , we will take care of him as long as he lives , but unless he does we will do nothing for him , and I was with him with my Lord Shaftsbury , and my Lord Shaftsbury did exclaim against the King. Sir Francis Withins . What words did he speak ? Mr. Ivey . He said he was altogether an unjustMan and not fit to Reign , and that he believed he was a Papist in his heart , and design'd to Introduce Popery , and therefore they design'd to depose him , and set up another in his stead ? Sir Francis Withins . Do you remember any discourse of Richard the Second , at that time ? Mr. Ivey , No Sir , I do not remember any thing of it . Bernard Dennis Sworn . Sir Francis Withins . Pray tell the Jury what discourse you had with the Earl of Shaftsbury at any time , and what it was . B. Dennis . My Lord , I came upon a design to make cleer the Plot in General , as far as I have travell'd , as in Ireland , France , Spain , Maryland , Virginia and England , and upon that account I was brought before a Justice of the Peace , in Westminster in November last , this time 12 month , and Examin'd before Justice Walcup , a Justice of the Peace , and from thence to the Committee of the House of Commons , of whom Collonel Birch ( I believe he is here ) was Chair-man , and gave in my Evidence , and being called upon at the Tryal of the Earl of Stafford , I was commended as I suppose to the Earl of Shaftsbury , and upon the Account he sent me word of it , by William Hetherington , who was then very intimate with the Earl of Shaftsbury to my knowledge ; and William Hetherington came to me several times , and he precisely was my maintainer at that time ▪ that is , to find me what ever I wanted , and provide me my Lodging , and carry me to some place where accommodation might be more better for me . Upon this account one time the Earl of Shaftsbury sent to me , desiring that I would wait upon him at his own house . I came to him , and there in the Gallery of his own house , walking very slowly he told me , what I gave in of the Plot in general was very good and sufficient , but as to the Queen and the Duke of York , that I should speak more home and positive against them , at least that I might be a corroboration to others in what they Swore against them ; This was all at that present time , that the Earl of Shaftsbury spake to me , and he desired me to go home to his Lodgings . With that I went home , and within a Month it may be , or thereabouts , he sent for me again , by the same William Hetherington , and William Hetherington told me , that the Earl of Shaftsbury would speak with me . So I came and Waited upon his Lordship at his own House , and say's he , Mr. Dennis I understand that you are a Clergy man. Yes my Lord , said I. And say's he , I would advise you to take a black gown , and I will preferr you to a Benefice , till such time as this business is over ; and , says he , at the end of this business I will not fail to preferr you to a better , and in the mean time I would advise you to take a black gown ; and this was a little , as I remember , after the Parliament was Dissolv'd at Oxford ; and he sent a Gentleman out of his own House along with me , to a Doctor of Divinity living hard by Lincolns-Inn Fields , Dr. Burnet by Name , as I remember , and the Gentleman acquainted the Doctor what I was , and about what occasion I came there ; so the Doctor indeed discoursed with me very familiarly , and rend'red thanks to the Earl for me into his conversation rather then another's . What discourse we had then was nothing to the matter , it was about matters of Conscience , and Religion . But Mr. Colledge that was the Joyner here in Town , and Executed afterwards , being familiar with me brought me to one Mr. Ferguson a Minister , as I suppose of the Presbyterian form , for he goes in their garb as near as I can tell , and Mr. Ferguson at our first meeting was in Richard's ▪ Coffee-House , in an upper room one pair of stairs , and in some company ; and Colledge going to him brought him aside , and spake to him concerning me , and he came to me apart , and discours'd with me ; from whence he brought me to a Bookseller's Shop . and bought for me the Articles of the Church of England , and in all these discourses there was a hand , as Colledge told me , of the Earl of Shaftsbury who did procure him , and sent to Dr. Burnet to bring me that way . I do not deny neither , that I had an inclination before I left Ireland , and when I was in Spain , and when I was in France for to become a Protestant , according to the Laws and Rules of the Church of England . The force of what I have to say is this , The Earl of Shaftsbury one day after all these things were past , and after the Parliament were dissolved at Oxford , discoursing with me in his own House , Major Manley being in the same Room then , who lives beyond Tower-hill , he asked me what was the present occasion I came to him there , and it was pretty early in the Morning , and the Earl had a Barber to trim him in his Room . I told him my occasion was then , That I was something low in Money , that I did a little want money at that time , and did not know to whom to speak for any thing but his Lordship , and said I came to tell you so . Well , say'd he , Mr. Dennis I have appointed Mr. Rouse , John Rouse whom you know , for to give you and maintain you in money ; go to him especially once a week , and he will give you money . And , said he , Mr. Dennis , what is the Number of your name in the Country as near as you can tell , how many are you ? My Lord , said I , to tell you exactly what number they be of , I cannot at present , but within a little time , I may tell you . I believe really there may be upon the matter 3 or 400 able men of my Name , in the County where I was born . Say's the Earl of Shaftsbury , Mr. Dennis , I would very willingly have you to advise those of your name , and those of your Friends for to be in a readiness , when ever occasion shall serve , and to stand by , if occasion should be , for to assist the Commonwealth of England ; for we do really intend to have England under a Common-wealth and no Crown ; and , say's he , we intend to live as we see Holland does , that is , to have a Commonwealth , and to have no Supream head , particular man , say's he , or King ; nor owe Obedience to a Crown ; and , say's he , we will extirpate the King , and all his Family as near as he can ; and Mr. Dennis , say's he , I do admire that your Nation should be such Fools as they are , for it is very certain that King James , Queen Elizabeth , King Charles the First , say's he , and the King that now is , does wrong you to very destruction ; and , say's he , if you had been under a Common-wealth , the Common-wealth would take more pitty of your Nation , and the Gentry of your Nation , then any doe of them now , in this time wherein the King Governs , and upon this I doe count the Irish fools . This is all that I can say . L. C. J. The King's Council declare they will call no more Witnesses , for they think they have called enough already , and there are several of them that doe swear Words that are treasonable in themselves , if you do desire to ask any of the Witnesses any thing , you shall have them all call'd one by one . Fore-man . My Lord , we will walk up again , and Consider what Questions to ask ▪ and come again presently . Mr. Papillon . It seems they will call no more Witnesses then these . L. C. J. Not against the Earl of Shaftsbury , being you are charg'd only with that . Mr. Papillon . It is so my Lord , but we pray we may be satisfyed upon the Statute the Indictment is grounded , because we may hear it read before we go up , because your Lordship speak's of two different Statutes , the 25th . of Edward , and you mention the Statute of the 13th . of this King ; your Lordship in your discourse to the Jury mentioned them both , we pray your Lordship to acquaint us upon what Statute it is grounded , whether upon both or one of them . L. C. J. Look ye Gentlemen , this is grounded upon the Statute of this King , though there is enough to find an Indictment of Treason upon the Statute of the 25th of Edward the Third ; that which is Treason within the Statute of the 25th of Edward the Third , is Treason within this Statute , so this is the more Copious Statute ; for as I told you before , this Statute has enlarged that of Edward the Third in a great many Particulars ; and therefore look ye Gentlemen , always consider this , when one Statute contains the Matter of another , and inlarges it , the Indictment is always upon the last Statute , that being the more Copious Statute : But you are to Consider both . L. C. J. Nor. The Indictment is Contra formam Statut ' . and it being Contra formam Statut ' . it may be understood , Statutorum or Statuti , so that all Statutes that may be the Foundation of this Indictment you may go upon . Jury . We desire to know whether any of these Witnesses stand indicted or no. L. C. J. Look ye , Gentlemen , don't talk of this , but consider with your selves , an Examination or Proofs concerning the Credibility of the Witnesses is not properly before you at this time ; for I must tell you , and inform you as to that , you are not to Examine properly here concerning the Credibility of the Witnesses , that is not to be proved or controverted here before you , that is Matter , upon a Trial by the Petty Jury , for there the King will be heard for to defend the Credit of his Witnesses , if there be any thing that can be objected against them ; it is proper for the Prisoner to do that , you are only to see whether the Statute be satisfied , in having Matter that is Treasonable , and having it witnessed by two Men , by two Witnesses , who are intended prima facie Credible , unless you of your own knowledge know the contrary ; for otherwise , you must consider what a disadvantage this would be in all such Cases , if the Credibility of the Witnesses should be examined before the Grand Jury , where the King is not present , nor in a possibility of defending the Credit of his Witnesses ; the Prisoner or the Party Indicted is not here ; that is a proper Objection when he comes upon his Trial ; for all men are intended Credible , till there are Objections against them , and till their Credits come to be examined on one side and the other . Mr. Papillon . My Lord , if your Lordship thinks good , I will beg this , I desire your Lordships pardon , whether your Lordship doth not think that we are within the compass of our own Understanding and Consciences to give our Judgment ? L. C. J. Your own Understandings and Consciences , yes ; but look ye , Gentlemen — Mr. Papillon . If we are not left to consider the Credibility of the Witnesses , we cannot satisfie our Consciences . L. C. J. Look ye , Gentlemen , you are to go according to the Evidence of the Witnesses ; you are to consider of the Case according to the things alledged and proved , unless you know any thing your selves : But if any of you know any thing of your own knowledge , that you ought to take into Consideration , no doubt of it . Jury . Very well , my Lord. L. C. J. The Grand Jury are to hear nothing , but the Evidence against the Prisoner ; therefore for you to enter into proofs , or expect any here , concerning the Credit of the Witnesses , it is impossible for you to do Justice at that rate . The Jury withdrew , and the Court adjourn'd till 3 a Clock . L. C. J. Let the Witnesses be brought in one by one . Foreman . We will first ask a Question of Mr. Gwynn . Mr. Gwynn . Foreman . Who put up the Papers ? Mr. Gwynn . I put up the Papers my self . Foreman . Who went in with you ? Mr. Gwynn . None but my Lords Servants , I think , were there : But I put up the Papers my self . Foreman . Pray , Sir , whose hand writing is that Paper of ? Mr. Gwynn . Indeed , Sir , I can't tell . Foreman . How did it come into my Lord Shaftbury's Closet ? Mr. Gwynn . My Lord , this is a strange Question . Indeed , Sir , I can't tell ; all the Papers that I found in that Closet I put into that Bag. L. C. J. To satisfie the Jury , was the Paper in the Closet before you came there ? Mr. Gwynn . My Lord , it was certainly ●●●re , for there I found it ; I don't know the particular Paper , but all the Papers in that Bag were there . L. C. J. From whom had you the Key ? Mr. Gwynn . From my Lord Shaftsbury . Foreman . Don't you know , Sir , there was a Discourse in the Parliament of an Association ? Mr. Gwynn . Sir , I was not of the last Parliament . Sir , I know nothing of it . Foreman . You have not heard then , that there was such a thing in Parliament concerning an Association ? Mr. Gwynn . I have heard of an Association talked of . Foreman . Mr. Secretary , I would ask you some questions , if you did not know of a Debate in Parliament of an Association ? Mr. Secretary . I was not present at the Debate ; but there was a talk in Town of an Association . Foreman . Did not you hear of it in Parliament ? Mr. Secretary . Indeed there was an Answer to a Message from the House of Commons that had some thing in it that did strongly imply an Association ; but this particular Association I do not remember to have heard propos'd . Foreman . Don't you remember in the House of Commons , Sir , it was read upon occasion of that Bill ? Mr. Secretary . I heard such a thing spoke of ; but at the Reading of it I was not present , to the best of my remembrance . Foreman . What Date , Sir , was the Warrant for my Lord Shaftbury's Commitment ? Mr. Secretary . I refer my self to the Warrant , for that I do'nt know the Date . L. C. J. Mr. Secretary , you must speak about the time that it was ▪ Mr. Secretary . Sir , I was the man that had the honour to Sign that Warrant by which the Serjeant at Arms did Apprehend my Lord Shaftsbury , but what day of the Month I do not remember ; and therefore I refer my self , if you please , to the Warrant , and to the Serjeant at Arms. Foreman , What Month was it ? Mr. Secretary . Sir ? Foreman . About what Month ? Mr. Secretary . July . Foreman . The beginning of July ? Mr. Secretary . Sir , I do not remember the day precisely , for I did not foresee that Question would be asked me ; but I refer my self to the Warrant , and that is beyond all doubt . Foreman . I suppose all these Witnesses that are examin'd , were examin'd before the Committee . Mr. Secretary . Sir , They were examin'd , and I was present at the Examination . Foreman . All of them ? Mr. Secretary . I don't know whether all of them ; but I am sure I was at the Examination of several of them . Foreman . How many , Sir ? Mr. Secretary . I can't tell truly how many . Foreman . Call Mr. Booth . Officer . He is not here , the Tipstaff has him some where . Foreman . Is that Witness a Prisoner ? L. C. J. Booth is a Prisoner . Foreman . Then call Mr. Turbervile . Mr. Papilion . Is Mr. Turbervile there ? Officer . Here is Mr. Booth come now . Mr. Godfrey . Put Turbervile out again . Foreman . Mr. Booth , you told me of a Discourse that past between the Lord Shaftsbury and your self , we desire to know where it was , and when . Mr. Booth . It was in Thanet-house , Sir , where he lived , about a week or Ten days before the Parliament sat at Oxford . Foreman . The precise time . Mr. Booth . I cannot be more precise . Foreman . Who introduced you ? Mr. Booth . I think one Mr. Wilson led me into the Chamber . Foreman . Who was present when the Discourse was ? Mr. Booth . None but He and I , Sir. L. C. J. If we have these Noyses , we will have every one of you put out of Court. Mr. Att. General . Richardson , Richardson , Pray turn them all out ; they are brought in on purpose . Mr. Booth . It was not the first , second , nor third time that I had waited upon the Lord of Shaftsbury . Foreman . In what Room was it that my Lord spake those words to you ? Mr. Booth . It was in the Room he usually sets in , on the left hand as we come out of the long Gallery , I think we pass'd through a Room before it , Wainscotted about , as I remember , and hung . I have been in that Room with him four or five times , I am sure . Foreman . After this Discourse with you , how long was it before you spake of it to any body else ? Mr. Booth . Truly I think I did not publish this Discourse that my Lord and I had , from the time it was , till within this Seven or Eight weeks . Foreman . You were never examined before then as a Witness ? Mr. Booth . No , Sir , I never was , nor no body will pretend it , I suppose . Foreman . To whom , Sir , did you give your first Information ? Mr. Booth . Sir , I sent my first Information in writing to the Lords in the Council . Foreman . By whose hand ? Mr. Booth . By the hand of Walter Banes. Foreman . You had several Discourses with him ; Had you easie Admission , or was it with difficulty you came into his Company ? Mr. Booth . I was admitted by the influence of Captain Wilkinson at first , and ever after went with him , and had easie admittance and familiarity with him . Foreman . Was he with you every time ? Mr. Booth . No , not every time ; he was not this time with me . Foreman . Did he talk to this purpose every time ? Mr. Booth . Something to this purpose he did talk every time , but not so fully ; for I was first acquainted with this Business of Oxford by Captain Wilkinson , and I had a great desire to understand it from my Lords own mouth , because I would be satisfied in my Lord's Interest , as well as his Conduct . Foreman . Pray , Sir , what Education have you had ? Mr. Booth . I have had the Education of a Gentleman , an Academical Education . Foreman . Were you ever in Orders ? Mr. Booth . Yes . Foreman . Do you own your self to be in Orders still ? Mr. Booth . How do you mean to be in Orders ? I tell you I was in Orders ; but I am not now Benificed . Foreman . Do you officiate as a Minister ? Mr. Booth . No. Foreman . Were you ever an Attorney's Clerk ? Mr. Booth . Never . Foreman . Or a Justice's Clerk ? Mr. Booth . Never ; nor to no Mortal . Foreman . Were you ever Indicted for any Felony ? L. C. J. That is a Question not to be asked by any Jury-man of any Witness whatsoever : No man is bound to discover any thing of that Nature that is Criminal , concerning himself . Foreman . If it be pardoned , my Lord , he may . L. C. J. Pardoned , or not pardoned , he is not bound to accuse himself , nor to fix a Scandal on himself . Mr. Booth . No , my Lord , Nemo tenetur seipsum prodere . L. C. J. Sir , we must not suffer such Questions ; I will tell you the reason : It is proper for a Prisoner that stands upon his Justification to object it , but then the Prisoner must prove it : It lies upon him to prove it . Mr. Papilion . Mr. Booth , you told us of Fifty men that were Listed under Captain Wilkinson , Do you know any more of them ? Mr. Booth . I never directly conversed with any other . Mr. Papilion . Did you know any more of them ? Mr. Booth . No , not directly I did not , but only by Captain Wilkinson's Information . Mr. Papilion . How many Stories was that Room where you talked with my Lord ? Mr. Booth . One pair of Stairs , as I remember . Mr. Godfrey . Was it the right hand as you came in ? Mr. Booth . I think so . Mr. Godfrey . Was it the right hand or the left ? Mr. Booth . I went into the long Gallery first , and stayed there about a quarter , or half an hour ; and I remember very well I looked upon some Maps that were there , to divert my self a while ; and when I was called in , went out of the Gallery on the left hand , and went through another Room before I came into my Lord's Room . Foreman . Did you never hear my Lord speak Treason in any House but his own ? Mr. Booth . I never had occasion to hear this Discourse from my Lord ▪ but in his own House ; I never waited upon him in any other House . Foreman . Was you never desired to be a Witness against my Lord Shaftsbury ? Mr. Booth . Not till I intimated some thing of it . Foreman . Who was that too ? Mr. Booth . That was to Mr. Banes , I told you before so . Foreman . And what then ? Mr. Booth . When he told me of his Business with the Yorkshire Attorney Brownrigg , I did say again , I did not know what my Lord had done as to any thing of Irish-men , but I was sure there was something as to English-men , as to that purpose . Foreman . Did he propose any Reward , or any thing of that Nature ? Mr. Booth . Not a Farthing ; for I think he had no Commission to do it . Foreman . Are you acquainted with one Callaghan and Downing , two Irish-men ? Mr. Booth . No. Mr. Godfrey . Were you never in their Company ? Mr. Booth . Not that I know of . Mr. Godfrey . Did you ever hear their Names ? Mr. Booth . I don't know that I have . Foreman . Were you in their Company lately ? Mr. Booth . Not , as I know of . I do not remember either their Names or their Persons , nor do I know them from other men . Foreman . Do you know one Mr. Shelden ? Mr. Booth . No. Foreman . Do you know one Mr. Marriott ? Mr. Booth . No , Sir : I have heard of one Marriott that did belong to my Lord Duke of Norfolk . Foreman . When were you in his Company ? Mr. Booth . Never that I know of . Foreman . Has no body discoursed you from him ? Mr. Booth . No , no body . Foreman , Did you never hear of any Witnesses he sent to his Tenants ? Mr. Booth . I have heard from Banes about Brownrigg , about Irish Witnesses . Mr. Godfrey . Did you never hear of any Irish Witnesses sent down by Mr. Marriott to the Isle of Ely ? L. C. J. We gave you all the liberty in the World , hoping you would ask pertinent Questions , but these are Trifles . I did not expect that any wise men would have asked these Questions . Mr. Godfrey , was it to the purpose whether Mr. Marriott sent any Irish Witnesses to his Tenant , or no ? What is that to this business ? Foreman . My Lord , I have it under the hand of the Clerk of the Council . Mr. Booth . Pray , Sir , Did any inform you that I had any Correspondence with this man ? L. C. J. Nay , Sir , you must ask no Questions . Mr. Godfrey . Mr. Booth , do you go under no other name but Booth ? Mr. Booth . No , nor never did in my life . Mr. Booth . My Lord , I cannot go in safety here for the Tumult . L. C. J. Let the Officers secure him : Mr. Sheriff , look to him , that the man be secure and safe ; I will require him at your hands else . Mr. Sheriff Pilkington . What should I do ? L. C. J. Send your Officers to protect him , as becomes you , that he may be secured from the Rabble here . Mr. Turbervile . Foreman . Mr. Turbervile , when you had this Discourse with my Lord Shaftsbury , who was present with you ? Mr. Turbervile . One of his Servants ; truly I cannot tell his Name . Foreman . No body else ? Mr. Turbervile . I know the Name of none of his Servants , but Mr. Sheppard , I cannot remember any body else . Foreman . Did he carry you up to my Lord ? Mr. Turbervile . It was he , I think , told me I might go in : I was in the Dining Room . Foreman . What time was this ? Mr. Turbervile . In the Morning . Foreman . What time was it when you had this Discourse with my Lord Shaftsbury ? Mr. Turbervile . It was in February . Foreman . What time in February ? Mr. Turbervile . About the beginning ; I cannot tell exactly to a day . Foreman . How long was this before you communicated this to any body ? Mr. Turbervile . It was about the Fourth of July . Foreman . Then you concealed it from February to July : Who did you Communicate it to first of all ? Mr. Turbervile . The first Deposition I gave was to Mr. Secretary . Foreman ▪ Which Secretary ? Mr. Turbervile . Secretary Jenkins . Foreman . Pray what Room was it you had this Discourse in ? Mr. Turbervile . Sir , It was the Room at the upper end of the Dining Room ; I think they call it the Dining Room ; at the upper end of the Room , and turns on the left hand where he lay . Foreman . Did you meet with no body about the beginning of July , after my Lord's Commitment , and tell them when you were challenged , and told you were to be a Witness against him , As you were alive you knew no such thing ? Mr. Attor . General . My Lord , this is not to be allowed : This is private Instructions which the Jury are not to take . Foreman . No , Sir , it is not private Instructions . Did you not speak such words to William Herbert ? L. C. J. Have you had any Information concerning this to Mr. Herbert ? Foreman . My Lord , I have a long time ago . My Lord , such a person did tell me so and so , and set down the day ; and he then said he was very angry with him for it . L. C. J. Look ye , Gentlemen , what Discourse you take up at random in every Coffee-house ? Is that fit to be brought in when Treason is in question against the King's Life ? Are these Coffee-house Discourses , do you think , ground enough for you to cavel at Persons , because you have heard this Discourse in a Coffee-house ? Foreman . My Lord , I never was in a Coffee-house in my life with Mr. Herbert ; but he declared this to me some Months ago . L. C. J. And you think this is ground enough for you against him ? Mr. Papilion . My Lord , we only ask this Question , whether he hath not contradicted this , or said the contrary to any body else ? Mr. Turbervile . I do not remember that ever I spake one word to Mr. Herbert in my life ; and I can give you one reason . For I was discarded by all the People of my Lord's Interest at that time ; and if I had given under my hand that I had known nothing against him , I believe I might have been in their favour as much as before . Mr. Papilion . Were not you one that Petitioned to the Common Council in London ? Mr. Turbervile ▪ I did , Sir. Mr. Papilion . And did not you declare then that you were tempted to witness against your Conscience ? Mr. Turbervile . I believe I never read the Petition : It was drawn by the Order of Mr. Colledge , by a Man that lives about Guildhall ; by a Scrivener about Guildhall ; and I signed that Petition , but never read it , nor knew what was in it . L. C. J. Mr. Richardson , any you Officers , watch by those men that make a noise , and bring me in one to make an Example . Mr. Turbervile . My Lord , I go in danger of my life , for the People threaten to stone me to death , and I cannot go safe to my Lodging . Mr. Papilion . What was your design in signing that Petition ? what did you look for ? Mr. Turbervile . The design was that the City should take care of us . Mr. Papilion . Were you in a poor Condition ? Mr. Turbervile . Truly I was not very poor , though I was not over full of Money . Mr. Papilion . It is a strange thing that you should Petition for Relief , if you were not in want . Mr. Turbervile . We were told by some Members of the House of Commons , that there was a Vote in the House of Commons ready to pass , that the City should advance Money for the support of the Witnesses , and that we would Petition that they would answer the Design of the Parliament . Mr. Papilion . What Members were they ? Mr. Turbervile . It was a Member of the House of Commons that told me so , I will assure you two of them . Mr. Papilion . Did never any body move you , or desire you to be a Witness in this case against my Lord Shaftsbury ? Mr. Turbervile . No body in my life . When I came to speak the truth of what I knew , I did it voluntarily . Mr. Papilion . You did it voluntarily ? Mr. Turbervile . I did , I will assure you . Mr. Papilion . Do you know any thing more than what you have said here ? Mr. Turbervile . No , not one tittle . Mr. Papilion . Mr. Turbervile , I desire to be satisfied in one thing , whether my Lord Shaftsbury was Committed before or after your Information ? Mr. Turbervile . Truly , Sir , I cannot tell positively , as to that point ; but I believe it was before ; I cannot tell . Mr. Papilion . Did you hear my Lord speak these words in any other Room or Place ? Mr. Turbervile . No , indeed , I did not . Mr. Papilion . It was about the Fourth of July , you say , your Depositions were taken ? Mr. Turbervile . About that time , I suppose the Fourth of July — I hope your Lordship will take care that we be not knock't on the head . L. C. J. That we give in Charge to Mr. Sheriff ; and see you do take care of the King's Witnesses at your peril . It is a reflection , not only upon the Government of the City , to suffer these Disorders , but upon the whole Kingdom : Therefore , Mr. Sheriff , look the Witnesses come by no hurt . Mr. John Smith . Mr. Papilion . Mr. Smith , the Jury ask you a Question , whether or no you did not use to go by the name of Barry ? Mr. Smith . Sir , what names I have gone by is not pertinent to this purpose ; I tell you I have gone by several Names , as all Popish Priests do . Mr. Papilion . Did you never go by the Name of Barry ? Mr. Smith . It may be I might ; I have gone by several Names , as all Popish Priests do . L. C. J. Did you ever go by the Name of Barry ? Mr. Smith . I did , my Lord ; it is usual for Popish Priests so to do . Mr. Papilion . What Religion are you of , Mr. Smith ? Mr. Smith . I am a Protestant , Sir. Mr. Papilion . How long have you been a Protestant ? Mr. Smith . Many years . Mr. Papilion . When were you first Converted ? Mr. Smith . First Converted ? Mr. Papilion . Ay , to the Protestant Religion : You say you have been one many years ? Mr. Smith . I have been a Protestant , and was perverted to the Popish Religion ▪ and afterwards became a Protestant again . L. C. J. Bring in one of those men that make the noise . Cannot you bring in one of them ? Mr. Papilion . When did you receive the Sacrament ? Mr. Smith . I believe not above Three Months ago , as the Rector of Bow-Church will inform you : I have it under the Church-wardens hands in other places in London . Mr. Papilion . Have you been desired to be a Witness , or did you do it voluntarily ? Mr. Smith . Never desired , I declare it ; I did it voluntarily of my self . Mr. Papilion . When did you give in your Evidence first ? Mr. Smith . Truly I cannot exactly tell when I gave it in ; I did not keep an account of it . Mr. Papilion . What Month ? Mr. Smith . I cannot tell . Mr. Papilion . Was it before my Lord was Committed , or after ? Mr. Smith . I believe it might be a little after . Whether it was before or after , I cannot exactly tell . Mr. Papilion . To whom did you give your Information ? Mr. Smith , My Lord , they commanded the people to stone us to death . L. C. J. Who did ? Mr. Smith , Several persons , and when we were at the Tavern , Dr. Oates's man came out and gave the Rabble a Bottle of Wine , and bid them knock us down . L. C. J. Do you know what the mans name is ? Dr. Oates I know nothing of it my Lord. L. C. J. What is your mans name ? Dr. Oates , I keep half a dozen men , my Lord. L. C. J. I hope you keep no men to affront the King's Witnesses . Dr. Oates , No my Lord , it is a mistake , I know nothing of it , we went thither to refresh our selves . M. Papilion , Mr. Smith , who did you give your Information to ? Mr. Smith , What Information ? Mr. Papilion , The first Information . Mr. Smith , My Lord , am I to answer to these questions ? L. C. J. Ay Answer them , tell them . Mr. Smith , My Lord ▪ the Information I gave in to Secretary Jenkins , but I gave notice long before of what I intended to do to other persons . Mr. Papilion , When did you hear these words ▪ speak to the time exactly ? Mr. Smith , Which words do you ask ? Mr. Papilion , Those you mentioned even now . Mr. Smith , Sir if you please , I know you take all in short hand , if you ask me what words , I will tell you , for if I do not express my self in the same words as before , you will take hold of me . L. J. C. I will tell you this , this may be an ill question , for he told you , he had discoursed my Lord Shaftsbury at a great many times , and that at sometimes he said these words , at other times other words , and for you to catch him upon a question , it doth not shew a fair inclination . Mr. Papilion , My Lord , under your Lordships favour , we only desire to discover the truth , we are not for catches . L. C. J. Ask him then which of the words you would have him declare the time of , and he will tell you . Mr. Papilion , Let him speak his own words , it was about the time when Hetherington went thither . Mr. Smith , Truly I will answer that as punctually as I can , the month or day I cannot well tell , but the person that came for me was major Manly ; and he came to Bethels Club , what time that was , I cannot say , but if you please to inform your selves of those Gentlemen that I name , I believe they will tell you Mr. Bethel was there present , and knew very well I went to my Lord Shaftsbury that night , and returned to the Club again . Mr. Godfrey , Was it in the Evening or the morning ? Mr Smith , Mr. Godfrey , Clubs are usually at night I suppose , you know that was . Mr. Papilion , Where did you see my Lord Shaftsbury ? Mr. Smith , It was in his Dining Room . Mr. Papilion , Did you hear these words in any other place , or at any other time , or any Treasonable words against the King ? L. C. J. Look you Gentlemen , he told you of several other words at several other times . Mr. Papilion , But he said all at his house , my Lord. L. C. J. Ay , but at several times . Mr. Smith , I know Mr. Attorny , what the Gentlemen would be at very well . L. C. J. Answer them whether you did hear him speak any words that you conceive Treasonable at any other time ? Mr. Smith , I did not indeed . Mr. Papilion , In another place ? Mr. Smith , I do say I did not . Mr. Papilion , Did you petition to the Common Councel ? M. Smith , No Sir I never did . Mr. Papilion , Are you an English-man or an Irish man ? Mr. Smith , That 's no matter , no more than if I were a French-man or a Dutch-man . L. C. J. Give them an account whether you are an Englishman or an Irish-man . Mr. Smith , My Lord , I beg your Lordships pardon for that , if I were an Irishman , whether thereupon my Evidence would be prejudiced . L. C. J. Look you Mr. Smith , I do hope the Gentlemen of the Jury have more discretion among them all , than to think that an Irish-man is not a good witness , I hope they are not such persons . Mr. Smith , My Lord , if you please whilst I was in the City amongst them , I never petitioned to the City , I never had a farthing from them , nor ever spake to any for it , I never had any occasion for it , but if I had , it is probable I have enough in England , and other places , without being beholden to your Common Council . L. C. J. Will you ask him any more questions ? Jury , No , no. Mr. Papilion , Is Mr. Smith gone ? I would ask him one word , we would fain know what allowance you have , or what you receive , if you have any allowance , from any body ? Mr. Smith , From whom ? Mr. Papilion , Nay , I know not from whom : I ask whether you have any from any body ? L. C. J. Look ye Gentlemen , is that a question that is pertinent ? I wonder you will go to such questions : we allowed you to ask questions your selves , because we look upon you as men of reason . Mr. Papilion , My Lord , I do not know but it may be a proper question to ask him if he have any allowance from any man upon this account . L. C. J. Upon what account ? Mr. Papilion , Upon this account , if he says he has none 't is an answer . L. C. J. Do you intend your question , whether he is bribed to give Evidence , if you mean so , speak plain . Mr. Papilion , We ask if he have any allowance ? Mr. Smith , You don't ask me how the 6 or 700 l. was made up . L. C. J. You that are upon your Oaths should have a care what you do . Bryan Haynes . Mr. Papilion , Mr. Haynes , when did you give in your Information upon this matter ? Mr. Haynes , Against the Earl of Shaftsbury , Sir ? Mr. Papilion , Ay. Mr. Haynes , The day that I was taken by the Messenger . Mr. Papilion , That was before my Lord was committed , was it not ? Mr. Haynes , Yes Sir , it was before my Lord was committed . Mr. Papilion , Did you ever make any other Information to a Justice of the Peace ? Mr. Haynes , Not of my Lord of Shaftsbury . Mr. Papilion , Nor touching this matter ? Mr. Haynes , No not any Information upon Oath , I may have discoursed with a Justice of the peace . Mr. Papilion , Did not you give in an Information of a Design against the Earl of Shaftsbury ? Mr. Haynes , To none but to Secretary Jenkins . Mr. Papilion . You understand the question , whether you did give no Information of a Design against my L. Shaftsbury to some Justice of the peace ? Mr. Haynes , No no , to none but Mr. Secretary Jenkins . L. C. J. You do not observe his question , did you ever give to any Justice any Information of a Design against my Lord Shaftsbury . Mr. Haynes , Yes my Lord , I did to Sir George Treby , I made Affidavit before him . Mr. Papil . When was that ? Mr. Haynes , I think it was in March last . Mr. Papilion , What was that design against my Lord Shaftsbury ? Mr. Haynes , The design was what Mr. Fitz-Gerrald told me , he told me he gave under his hand to the King , that the Earl of Shaftsbury did resolve to set the Crown upon his own head , or otherwise to turn the Kingdom into a Common-wealth . Mr. Papilion , Fitz-Gerrald told you this , and so you made Affidavit of it ? Mr. Haynes , Yes , before Sir George Treby . Mr. Papilion , What time ? Mr. Haynes , It was before the Parliament met at Oxford . Mr. Papilion , So you say the words were , when were the words spoken that you mentioned ? Mr. Haynes , The words against my Lord ? Mr. Papilion , Ay. Mr. Haynes , He spake them to me a little before I made Affidavit , I cannot tell positively the time . Mr. Papilion , That was before his Commitment . Mr. Haynes , Yes , yes , my Lord was committed in June last , this Affidavit was made in March last before the Recorder of London . L. C. J. North , When you ask him about the Information of the design against my Lord Shaftsbury , he says that was in March last , and when you ask him about the evidence he gives now , that was the same day he was apprehended by the Messenger . Mr. Papilion , About June you say it was , that you say you gave in the Information against my Lord Shaftsbury . Mr. Haynes , The Information I made against my Lord Shaftsbury was in June last , the 28th . as I take it of June last . Mr. Papilion , Where was it you had this discourse ? Mr. Haynes , I had several Conferences with my Lord. Mr. Papilion , Did he every time say the same ? Mr. Haynes , The last time I spake with him was in Iron-monger-Lane , for Mr. Whitaker told me he would speak with me , and he would fain have me explain my self , what I did mean by the tall man I mentioned in the Narrative , and I went to the house , and they told me he was there , and I sent up a Note , and he desired me to come up ; but I sent word I did not care to come up , because I would not be known , and so he sent me word to meet him after Dinner , and when I came , my name is Haynes my Lord , said I , and I led his Lordship by the hand and went in there , I had I believe a whole hours discourse with him , and pray my Lord said I , among other questions , what Religion is the King of ? truly says he , Mr. Haynes he hath no more Religion than an horse ; for saith he , they say Sir , he was inclined to Popery , when he came first to England says he , he had a tincture of Popery , and was much inclined that way , but since he was degenerated from all the Principles of Christianity , for he is just like a perfect Beast . Mr. Papilion , This you say was in Iron-monger-Lane . Mr. Haynes , Ay Sir , at a Pastery Cooks Shop . Mr. Papilion , What time was it ? Mr. Haynes , After Dinner in the after-noon . Mr. Papilion , In June , or when ? Mr. Haynes , I cannot tell what time positively , it was about the time of the Trial of Fitz-Harris . Mr. Papilion , Was it the same time he spake about the D. of Buckingham ? Mr. Haynes , No , no. Mr. Papilion , When was that ? Mr. Haynes , That was when I was with him at his own house , and desired him not to expose me . Mr. Papilion , What time ? Mr. Haynes , I cannot tell Sir , for I never thought I should be called to an account for it , and I cannot keep an Almanack in my head , and I desired them not to expose me to the King's fury , for I heard the King was displeased with me : no says he you are mistaken , this is the best opportunity we can have , and if he will not give you a Pardon , we will raise the whole Kingdom against him in Arms , and then he makes himself the Master and Author of the Plot , and consequently he must expect to be ruined , unless he grant you a pardon . Mr. Papilion , Did you ever hear any other words than what you have now testified ? Mr. Haynes , Yes Sir , for I discoursed with him in Iron-monger-Lane a great while , and told him that our only and best way to have our ends of the King , was to raise a Rebellion in Ireland , and that I had relations and friends , and could get discontented Persons enough , and his Lordship would do the work here . Mr. Papilion , What , did you propound a Rebellion in Ireland ? Mr. Haynes , I offered to go beyond Sea , and that now was the best time to raise a Rebellion in Ireland , and he said that was not the best way , for they had other means to take , and so the discourse was waved . Mr. Papilion , And is that all ? Mr. Haynes , That is all I remember now . Mr. Papilion , Do you know of any other place or time ? Mr. Haynes , I was with him at his house . Mr. Papil . Were you ever a witness for my Lady Windham or against her ? Mr. Haynes , No Sir , but she arrested me , because I said I lay with her . John Macnamara . Mr. Papilion , Mr. Macnamara , when was it you had this discourse with my L. Shaftsbury , what is the time as near as you remember ? Mr. Mac. In March and April last Sir. Mr. Papilion , Twice then do you speak of ? Mr. Mac. Yes Sir. Mr. Papilion , Which is that that was in April ? Mr. Mac. That was the last , the last discourse was in April . Mr. Papilion , To what purpose was that ? Mr. Mac. My Lord said that the King deserved to be deposed as much as King Richard the second did . Mr. Papilion , In April you say . Mr. Mac. In April . Mr. Papilion , When did you give Information of this ? Mr. Mac. I cannot exactly tell Sir. Mr. Papilion , Repeat what you said . Mr. Mac. That the King deserved to be deposed as much as King Richard the Second , and that he took the Dutchess of Mazarines advice in every particular , which was the worst of Woman kind . Mr. Papilion , What time in April was this ? Mr. Mac. It was in the beginning of April . Mr. Papilion , Where ? Mr. Mac. In his own house . Mr. Papilion , Who was present ? Mr. Mac. There was Mr. Ivey by . Mr. Papilion , When did you make information of this ? Mr. Mac. I cannot tell , it was a good while ago . Mr. Papilion , Was it before his Commitment ? Mr. Mac. Yes Sir it was . Mr. Papilion , To whom did you give information ? Mr. Mac. To the Secretary of State , Sir. Mr. Papilion , Which of them ? Mr. Mac. Mr. Secretary Jenkins , Sir. Mr. Papilion , Did not you petition the Common-Council Sir , for relief ? Mr. Mac. Yes Sir , I signed a Petition that was drawn up , but I did not see it till it was brought to me to sign . Mr. Papilion , Did you read it ? Mr. Mac. No I never read it neither . Mr. Papilion , Nor don 't know what is in it ? Mr. Mac. No nor don 't know the contents of it . Mr. Papilion . My Lord , in that Petition they say , they were tempted to Swear against their Consciences , and that some of the Witnesses had made shipwrack of their Consciences ; we ask them now , and they say , they do not know what was in the Petition : if we should ask them who tempted them , and who those Witnesses were , that made shipwrack of their Consciences , it would signifie nothing ; for since they do not know what was in the Petition , it is in vain to ask them any more . Mr. Mac. For my part , my Lord , I never saw it till it was brought to me to be signed , and do not know the contents of it ; but I heard Mr. Colledge that was executed at Oxford , was concerned in promoting the Petition , by my L. Shaftsbury's advice . Dennis Macnamara . Mr. Papilion , Dennis Macnamara , tell us how you were introduced to my L. Shaftsbury , when you had this Discourse ? D. Mac. By my Brother , Sir. Mr. Papil . What , he that was here last ? D. Mac. Yes , Sir. Mr. Papil . He introduced you ? D. Mac. Yes , Sir. Mr. Papil . When was it ? D. Mac. It was in March last , the latter end of March , or beginning of April . Mr. Papilion , Cannot you tell which of the months ? D. Mac. No , I cannot be positive in it . Mr. Papil . Who was by ? D. Mac. There was Mr. Ivey . Mr. Papilion , No body but Mr. Ivey ? D. Mac. No body but Mr. Ivey and my Brother . Mr. Papilion , Where was it ? D. Mac. It was in his own Dining Room . Mr. Papilion , Were none of his Servants in the Room ? D. Mac. Not that I know of . Mr. Papilion , Are you sure none of his servants were there ? D. Mac. Not that I know of . Mr. Papil . Did you hear any thing else , at any other time ? D. Mac. No. Mr. Papil . Nor in any other place ? D. Mac. No. Mr. Papil . When did you give in this Information ? D. Mac. I gave it in a good while ago , Sir , I cannot be positive . Mr. Papilion , Was it before my Lord was committed ? D. Mac. Yes , a great while . Mr. Papilion , To whom did you give it ? D. Mac. I gave it to the Secretary of State. Jury , Cannot you remember how long it was before ? D. Mac. No , I cannot at the present . Mr. Papil . Which of the Secretaries ? D. Mac. Secretary Jenkins . Mr. Papilion , My Lord , I only propose , whether we may not ask whether he have not a pardon , for it would be a satisfaction to us for some reason . L. C. J. North , Look you here Gentlemen , when the Prisoner makes exceptions to the Witnesses , then it is proper , but here are no exceptions to the VVitnesses . Mr. Papil . My Lord , we make no exceptions , but we must satisfie our own Consciences , my Lord , that we must do , and that is very much , as we find the Credibility of the VVitnesses . L. C. J. North , Gentlemen , what do you mean that he should have a pardon for ? Mr. Papil . For Crimes . L. C. J. North , You must not ask him to accuse himself . Mr. Papil . If he hath a pardon , he is in statu quo ; suppose , my Lord , some of them have been guilty of poysoning , some of felony , some of robbing on the high-way , we do but ask them if they be pardoned ? L. C. J. North , A man must not be impeached , but where he may answer for it . Mr. Papil . My Lord , if you do not give us leave , we must forbear then . L. C. J. North , I do not think it proper to ask . Edward Ivey . Mr. Papil . The Discourse that you had with my L. Shaftsbury , when was it , at what time ? Mr. Ivey , It was a little after the sitting of the Parliament at Oxford . Mr. Papil . VVas it at more times than one ? Mr. Ivey , Yes , Sir , several times . Mr. Papil . All the same Discourse ? Mr. Ivey , No , not the same Discourse . Mr. Papil . The words that you spoke of , when was that ? Mr. Ivey , That was after the sitting of the Parliament at Oxford . Mr. Papil . About what time was it ? Mr. Ivey , It was about the latter end of March , or beginning of April . Mr. Papil . When did you make Information of this ? Mr. Ivey , I cannot be positive in that neither . Mr. Papil . Before my Lords Commitment or after ? Mr. Ivey , A while before . Mr. Papil . To whom did you give it ? Mr. Ivey , To the Secretary of State. Foreman , Who was present when my L. Shaftsbury spake those words ? Mr. Ivey , Both the Macnamara's , as I remember . Foreman , Who else ? Mr. Ivey , Truly , I do not remember any else privy to our Discourse , neither am I certain , that both the Macnamara's were there , one of them was there I am sure of it . Foreman , What was the reason you concealed this Information so long , had you no inducement to make it at that time , how came you to do it then and not before ? What was the reason , you say it was the latter end of April and May , my Lord was not committed for a good while after , here was two months time ? Mr. Ivey , I am not certain how long a time it was before , but I made it as soon as I could . Foreman , I ask you , whether you know any thing either of words , or treasonable actions , or any thing of my Lord of Shaftsbury , spoken or acted at any other time or place ? Mr. Ivey , No , I have declared what I know , as to the particulars . Bernard Dennis . Mr. Papil . Mr. Dennis , in the morning you told me something about the Discourse you had with my L. of Shaftsbury , tell me when it was ? Mr. Den. It was in April , 4 or 5 dayes after the Parliament was Dissolved at Oxford . Mr. Papil . In the beginning ? Mr. Den. In March , after the Parliament was Dissolved at Oxford . Mr. Papil . It was in March , and where ? Mr. Den. In his own house , here in this town , 4 or 5 dayes after the Parliament was dissolved at Oxford , immediately after he came home , I do not think he was at home 3 days before . Mr. Papilion , Who was present with you then ? Mr. Dennis , There was in the Room Mr. Sheppard his Gentleman . Mr. Papilion , Who else ? Mr. Dennis , Some of his Servants , his Pages I suppose , but whether they did hear this or no , I cannot tell . Mr. Papilion , Did my Lord whisper it , or speak out ? Mr. Dennis , My Lord is not a man of an high voice , but of a mediocrite voice . Mr. Papilion , Did he whisper it in your ear ? Mr. Dennis , No , I was just by him . Mr. Papilion , Who was in the Room besides ? Mr. Dennis , No body , only his Servants . Mr. Papilion , VVhen did you make this information ? Mr. Dennis , I made it in the month of June . Mr. Papilion , In the month of June ? Mr. Dennis , Yes Sir. Mr. Papilion , Before my Lord was committed , or after ? Mr. Dennis , Before . Mr. Papilion , VVho did you make it to ? Mr. Dennis , I made my information to the Secretary of State. Mr. Papilion , VVhich of them ? Mr. Dennis , Secretary Jenkins . Mr. Papil . VVhy did you conceal it so long ? Mr. Den. Because I was in the City so long . Mr. Papil . Did you ever go about to muster your 400. men you had in Ireland , I ask you whether you did or no ? Mr. Den. Upon my word I did advise some of them to be ready . Mr. Papil . And did you provide them with Arms ? Mr. Den. Not I Sir , I was not able to do it . Mr. Papil . VVhat Religion are you of ? Mr. Den. I am a Protestant . Mr. Papil . How long have you been a Protestant ? Mr. Den. I have been a Protestant since Febr. last . And this I must confess , that when I was in Spain and France , my resolution was to be a Protestant . Mr. Godfrey , Mr. Dennis , pray who was in the Room when you were there ? Mr. Den. The Earl of Shaftsbury Sir. Mr. Godfrey , VVho else ? Mr. Den. Mr. Sheppard . Mr. Godfrey , VVho else ? Mr. Den. I cannot name them . L. C. J. Mr. Godfrey , when another man asks a question , you should consider what is said , and not ask the same question over and over again . Mr. Papil . In what place in his house ? Mr. Den. In his own Chamber , in the great Chamber , I do not know whether you call it the Hall or the Parlour . Mr. Papil . VVas it above stairs ? Mr. Den. Yes , it was above stairs , my Lord does not use to speak with any below stairs . Mr. Papil . Is this all that you know , have you heard my Lord say any treasonable words in any other place , or at any other time ? Mr. Den. In the long Gallery , in his own house , at another time . Mr. Papil . VVhy did not you say so before ? Mr. Den. I did say so before , in the long Gallery he told me he would have a Common-wealth in England , and extirpate the Crown of England and the King of England . Mr. Papil . Is that all , speak all your knowledge ? Mr. Den. He said we should all Irish-men conform our selves to a Common-wealth , and by that we should get our Estates again . Mr. Papil . I ask you if this is all you have to say ? L. C. J. Do you remember any more ? Mr. Papil . More than you said in the Morning ? Mr. Den. He said he would extirpate the King , and make England a Common-wealth , and that we were fools and silly folks that did not comply our selves to their factious party , and that we should get our Estates , and that he would get me a black Gown and a Benefice , in the mean time , and when all things were done he would prefer me to a better , and not only my self but all that were of my name , and would stick to me . Mr. Papil . Is this all ? Mr. Den. This is all . Mr. Papil . Then you have nothing more . Mr. Den. I never spake to him but in his own house . Mr. Papil . All your Kindred are Papists , are not they ? Mr. Den. No Sir , I cannot say so , but most of them are . L. C. J. North , VVho can say that , that question no body can answer . L. C. J. Look ye Gentlemen , now you have asked these questions , you had best go and consider what evidence is delivered , and weigh well all those things that have been said to you , and you must consider your duty , you are to enquire here , whether it be fitting for the King to call my Lord Shaftsbury to question upon this account of treasonable words . Mr. Papil . My Lord , we desire before we go , that either the Law may be read , or we may have the Statute-book up with us . L. C. J. The Statute-book was never denyed , but you shall have the Law read here : First the Statute of the 25th . of Edward the Third , and then this last Statute . L. C. J. North , I would say one thing , because I observe that some of you asked the question , whether the Parliament did not debate about an Association : whether it related to that Paper or no , I am not certain , I hope you will consider that Paper well , for my part I must needs say for my self , I heard of it , but I never heard it read before , and never heard the contents of it ; but it seems to me to show what those Officers were to do , for the ends of this Association , and one of those ends as I remember ( Gentlemen , I refer you to the Paper , and hope you will consider it , you are men of understanding ) I thought that one of those ends was to destroy the mercenary forces in and about the Cities of London and Westminster , and that the Government was to be by the major part of the Members of Parliament in the sitting of Parliament , not with the King , but the major part of the Members of Parliament . Gentlemen I may mistake , for I profess I speak only out of memory ; but it seems to me to be of great consequence , and there is great matter to be presumed upon it , it being found under Lock and Key in his Study : but I suppose my Lord Shaftsbury may give an account of it , but there is great presumption upon it , it doth not import to be an Association by Act of Parliament . Mr. At. Gen. VVhen the Parliament was prorogued or dissolved , then the major part of the Members in each County engage themselves to follow their Command and obey their Order . L. C. J. North , Gentlemen , I hope you will consider your Oaths , and give all things their due weight . L. C. J. VVill you have the Statute read ? Jury , VVe will read it above . The Jury withdrew to Consider the Evidence , and returned the Bill Ignoramus , upon which the People fell a hollowing and shouting . Mr. At. Gen. My Lord , let it be Recorded this hollowing and hooping in a Court of Justice . THE END .