A VEry pleasant & fruitful Dialogue called the Epicure, made by that famous clerk Erasmus of Roterodame, newly translated. 1545. S. Paul to the Ephesians. You that have professed Christ, suffer not yourselves to be deceived with false doctrine, nor vain and noughty talking, but hearken unto all Godly things, and especially too the doctrine of the Gospel. THE HABOVNdaunt mercy and grace of our heavenly father jesus Christ, may always strengthen and defend out noble & virtuous Prince Edward too the maintenance of the lively word of God. WHERE as many histories of old & ancient antiquity, and also all godly & Christianwriters most plainly consent together, and agree in this, that dignity, riches, kindred, worldly pomp, and renown, do neither make men better, ne yet happiat, contrary too the blind & fond judgement of the most part of men: but by the power and strength of the mind, that is, learning, wisdom, and virtue, all men are highly enriched, ornated, & most purely beautified, for these be things both notable, eternal, and very familiar between the heavenly father & us. It is therefore evident (most excellent Prince) that the fittest ornaments for your graces tender age, be, erudition and virtue. Whereunto you are both so earnestly addict and therein so wonderfully do prevail, that I need not too exhort & exstimulate your grace unto the study thereof. For that God himself hath wrought, and formed your mind so apt and desirous too attain and diligently too seek for all godly doctrine, that even now you do show in all your sayings and doings such a wonderful pleasaunres much like unto a certain sweet music or harmony, that any honest heart exceedingly would rejoice in the sight thereof. Verily, your grace thinketh plainly all time lost, that is not bestowed upon learning, which is a very rare thing in any child, and rarest of all in a Prince. Thus your nobleness, rather desireth virtue and learning the most surest and excellent treasures, which far surmount all worldly riches, than any vanities or trifles. Now your grace prepareth for the wholesome and pleasant food of the mind. Now you seek for that which you shall find most surest helper and faithfulst councillor in all your affairs. Now your magnificent mind studieth that, which all english men with meek and humile hearts should desire GOD to endue your grace with all. Now with diligent labour you search for a thing, as one most mindful of this saying: Happy is that realm thathath a learned Prince. Now you travail for that, which conquereth, and keepeth down all grievous torments & outrageous affections of the mind, too the furtherance of good living, and maintenance of virtue, I mean wholesome erudition and learning. Many Heathen Princes forsooth, are highly magnified with most ample praises, which gave themselves too the study of Philosophy, or knowledge of tongues, for their own commodity, and especially for the weal of their subjects. Who is now more celebrated and worthelier extoiled than Mithridares? that noble king of Pont and Bithynia, which, (as Aulus Bellius writeth) understood so perfectly the languages of. xxii. sundry countries that were under his dominion, that he never used any interpreter too answer his subjects, but spoke their languages so finely, as though he had been of the same country. again, that honourable man Quintus Ennius said: that he had. three hearts, because he could speak Greek, Italian, and Latin. Yea, and briefly, the most famaus writers, as well the Heathen, as the Christien, with an universal consent, plainly affirm: When they had weighed the nature and condition of the purest things under heaven, they saw nothing fair, or of any price, or that ought too be accounted ours, but only virtue and learning. Even now too acknowledge that same, it is given you from above, for your grace delecteth in nothing more than too be occupied in the holy Bible: wherein, you begin too saver & smell forth the treasure of wisdom, knowledge and fullness of the divine power, that is a study most convenient for every Christien Prince, that kind of study cannot have sufficient laud and commendation. Whose Princely heart forsooth, is raveshed on such a godly and vertuousstudie, it can never have condign and worthy praises, but deserveth always too be had in great price, estimation, and honour. Who doth not know? that Prince which is yeoven unto the scriptures of God and with a stout stomach and valiant heart, both searcheth forth and also defendeth the true doctrine of the Gospel, too be enrolled in the assemble of Christ. Who doth not see? that Prince too be most surely armed, which carrieth in his heart the sword of the spirit, which is the blessed word of God. Who is ignorant? that everlasting life consisteth in the knowledge of God. What Prince would not study to maintain that, which is written for the health, and salvation of all men wearing with himself that a Prince can not deserve, neither by conquest, civil policy, nor yet by any other mean under heaven, this name high or honourable, sowourthely as by the setting forward of God's word. What young Prince humbly descending down into himself and calling to memory his bounden duty would not with a glad heart and a cheerful mind, greedily desire too know, enlarge, and amplify the glory and majesty of his dearly beloved father? Your grace (forsooth) hath professed God too be your father: Blessed are you then if you obey unto his word, and walk in his ways. Blessed are you, if you support such as preach the Gospel. Blessed are you, if your mind be full furnished with the testament of Christ, and show yourself too be the most cruel foo and enemy against hypocrisy, superstition, and all papistical fantasies, where with the true religion of God hath been dusked and defaced these many years Blessed are you, if you read it day & night, that your grace may know what GOD doth forbid you, and ever submit yourself thereunto with serviceable lowliness chief desiring to flourish and deck your mind with godly knowledge. And most blessed are you, if you apply yourself unto all good works, & plant surely in your heart the scriptures of Christ, If you thus do, neither the power of any papistical realm, nor yet of hell can prevail at any time against your grace. Now therefore, with humile heart, faithfully receive the sweet promises of the Gospel. If you keep the words of the Lord and cleave fast unto them: there is promised you the kingdom of heaven: You are promised a weal public most rich and wealthy You are promised too be delivered from the deceipts of all your privy enemies. You are promised also, too conquer great and mighty nations. Again, let your grace be most fully persuaded in this, that there was never King nor Prince, that prospered which took part against God's word, and that the greatest abomination that can be, either for King, Prince, or any other man, is too for sake the true word of God. O with how rebukeful words & grievous judgement they be condemned, which despise & set little by the holy Bible & most blessed Testament of God, wherein there is contained all the will & pleasure of our heavenvly father toward us most miserable & ignorant wretches Who would not quake, too behold the terrible fears & threatenings of God against all such? Who would not lament & gladly helppe their obstinate blindness? Who would not weep? to hear and read in how many places, they be openly accursed by the scriptures of Christ. God himself plainly affirmeth, that he will suddenly consume them with the breath of his anger. Yea, besides that whoso ever declineth from the word of God is accursed in all his doings, whether he be King, or Prince, rich, or poor, or of what estate soever he be. This fearful saying (most excellent Prince) should move all men to take heed unto their duties and to pray that goods word may take place emongist us. O that all men would fantasy the scriptures of God, and say with the virtuous man job. We will not be against the words of the holy one. Truth it is, God taketh diligent care too have us all know his word. Would God therefore, that all we were now willing to have the sincere word of God & all wholesome doctrine too go forward. O that all we would consent together in the Gospel, brotherly admonishing, and secretly provoking one an other too true religion & virtue. O that no man would sow amongst the people pernicious doctrine, but with all lowly diligence and Godly monition ever provoke, tempt, and steer them, till their hearts were removed from their old dauting dreams and superstition, which have been long grafted in them thorough popish doctrine. By this mean we should ever have concord amongst us, which in all things is necessary, but most needful and expedient in Gods holy word. Now truly the godliest thing that can be devised, for any christian realm, is to have amongst them one manner and form of doctrine, & too trace trueli the steps of God and never to seek any other by ways. Who hath not red in the scriptures? but that realm is endued with godly ornaments & riches, where all men prosper, go for ward and flourish in god's word, delecting day and night in the sweet consolations of the holy testament. By this way we should especially setforth the glory of God, and of our saviour jesus Christ, if we would reverently show one an other that which God hath taught us. Yea & in this doing all men should well perceive that we were the true disciples of Christ, being knit and coupled fast together in mind and judgement, preaching God with one mouth and also with one assent ever promoting his glorious testament. O the good hap and grace of that king or prince amongst whose subjects there is such an hole consent and judgement in the word of God, for that most assuredly bindeth & adivigneth the hearts of all subjects too their king. The strength of the Gospel is even such in this puincte, that there was never man, which did humbly receive it, that would mumur against his Prince. It teacheth how willingly all men should obey their king. It showeth very lively and most apertly unto every man his full duty. It ever provoketh us from all wicked, cursed, and most obstinate disobedience. It ever instructeth men too show themselves most lowly, humile, and obesaunt toward their Prince. Whosoever hath tasted fully thereof, will declare himself in all things, too be a faithful subject. Furthermore, it is clearer than the light (most virtuous prince) that it would make much for the weal of this noble realm, if all men with heart and mind, would now as well expulse the pernicious and duly she doctrine of that romish bishop, as his name is blotted in books. There is none so ignorant, but he knoweth that through him we were brought into a wondered blindness, through him we did saver of nothing, but of stinking idolatry, through him we were deceived with false hypocrisy. Now let every blind stiff hearted, and obstinate creature compare his abomination with the gospel, and if he be not shameless, he will abash to smell of his papistry, and to wallow still in ignorance, unless he be privily confederate and in heart consent with the detestable fellowship of all wicked papists. Now would God all such men would reduce again their hearts unto the gospel of Christ. would god they would be provoked by some mean to desire knowledge. O that god would yeve them a courageous mind too read the gospel, there they shall soon find all the venoume of the romish sort most plainly detected. Forsooth we see daily, that lack of knowledge of the gospel maketh some busserdes run headlong on all rocks, dangers, & extreme perils: yea, and beside that, old popish doctrine which lieth folded up & locked fast in their hearts, doth so sore blind them that they have neither favour ne affection too print in their minds, the expressed counsels, admonitions, and precepts of the holy scripture, but too stepe still in their own conceits, dreams, & fond fancies. Wherefore let your dignity note well this, that all those which be not willing that gods word should be known, and that blindness should be clean expulsed from all men, which be baptized in the blessed blood of Christ, bewray themselves plain papists: for in very deed that most deceitful wolf and grand master papist with his totiens quotiens, and a pena et culpa blesseth all such as will be blind still, maintain his pomp, drink of his cup of fornication, trust in his pardons, live in popery, hypocrisy, and damnable idolatry, shut up the kingdom of heaven, & never regard the gospel. Contrary too this, christ by his holy Prophet calleth all those blessed that seek for his testimonies, all those his elect & choose children, which turn from sin, hypocrisy, & idolatry, all those gods that hear his word, yea, & briefly, all those which set it forward honourable men. & in this puincte your grace should ever bear in mind, that noble and virtuous king Hezekiah, which showed himself very honourable in setting forward the word of God, and thereby got him glory and fame immortal, so that now he is most highly praised amongst all men. again his subjects did obey his commandment feignedly with hypocrisy, but in their hearts they abhorred gods word. O the misery that did afterward suddenly ensue upon them, O the wonderful wrath of God that was poured upon them, O their great and obstinate blindness which caused them most grievously too be scourged: Their plague was no less than too be utterly spoiled of their enemies, Their plague was no less than to eat one an other: Yea, their plague was no less than to eat their own sons and daughters. This calamity and sorrow (most noble prince) happened them because they did not regard the laws of God, but turned too their old abominable idolatry, and lightly esteemed gods holy word. Wherefore even now whosoever is an enemy to the holy Bible, that is, neither studying it himself, nor willing that other men should know it, he can in no wise be a right christian man: although he fast, pray, do alms, & all the good works under heaven. And he that hath such a mind, is the most cursed and cruel enemy too god, a plain sour of sedition, and a devilish disquieter of all godly men. For truly those that read the gospel of Christ, and labour diligently therein: do find wonderful rest & quietness, from all woeful misery, perturbation, and vanicies of this world. And surely none but hypocrites or else devils would go about too stop or allure men from such a treasure and godly study. And it were convement, that all they which will remain still negligent, stiff, & blind: should set before their faces the fear of pains infernal, and if they have any grace at all, their spirits ought to be moved: too note the great plagues that have happened the slothful in gods word, & those that have been stubborn against the setting out of it. There be a thousand records and examples in the holy Bible against such as be far wide from knowledge, and lie now weltering still in ignorance and will not look upon the bible. It would seem, they hope for a thing, but their hope is in vain: For saint Paul plainly writeth the hope of such hypocrites shall come too nought. And too conclude (most honourable Prince) seeing we have such knowledge opened unto us, as never had english men, and are clearly delivered from the snares and deceipts of all false and wicked doctrine, if we shuid not now thankfully receive the gospel, and show ourselves naturally inclined to set it forward, yea, and pray day and night unto God, for the preservation and health of the kings highness, your graces dear, and most entirely beloved father, we were neither true subjects nor right christian men. Forsooth, through the absolute wisdom, and the most godly and politic prudency of his grace, the sweet sound of god's word is gone through out all this realm, the holy Bible and blessed testament of our saviour Christ are coomnne to light, and thousands have faithfully received those pleasant, joyful, and most comfortable promises of God. Surely this thing before all other, is acceptable too god. This thing especially suageth the ite of god. This thing in all holy scriptures god most chief requireth of his elect & faithful servants, even too have his little flock know his blessed word, which would be much better known & more thankful i received, if all agees and degrees of men with one mind, will, & voice, would now draw after one line, leaving their own private affections, and show themselves ever vigilant, prompt, & ready helpers & workers with God, (according to the council of saint Paul) & especially priests, scolem it sters & parents, which according too the prophet David are blessed, if they gladly require the law of God. They should therefore read the bible & purge their minds of all papistry: for their negligence, in doing their duties & sluggishness toward the blessed word of god, doth too much appear. Through them forsooth the gospel of Christ should be most strongly warded and defended, for almost all the Prophets, and a great part of the scripture beside teach them their duties, and show plainly what manner of men they should be: Yea, and how grievously the holy Prophets cry out upon false and ignorant priests, the thing is very evident. But through the helppe of God all those that be ignorant, or else learned (as they take themselves) will leave of, and repent them of their wicked and obstinate blindness, and bow themselves with all opportunity too draw men's hearts too the holy testament of God: considering, that in the terrible day of judgement, every man shall yeve account of his Beliwicke, where neither ignorance shall excuse us, ne yet any worldly pomp may defend us. Most happy then shall they be, which have walked tustely in the sight of the Lord, and that have sincerely preached his testament and lively word without flattery or juggling: Yea, and in that fearful day, all they (as writeth S. Augustine) shall find mercy at the hands of god, which have enticed and alured other unto goodness and virtue. weighing this with myself, (most excellent, and unto all kind of virtues most prompt & prestant Prince) I thought it good too translate this Dialogue, called the Epicure, for your grace: which seemed too me, too be very familiar, & one of the godliest Dialoges that any man hath written in the latin tongue. Now therefore I most humili pray, that this my rude & simple translation may be acceptable unto your grace, trusting also that your most approved gentleness, will take it in good part. There as I do not follow the latin, word for word, for I omit that of a certain set purpose. Your humile servant, Philyppe Gerrard, groume of your graces Chambre. The Epicure The interlocutours. HEDONIUS SPUDEUS. WHAT meaneth mi Spudeus, too apply his book so earnestly, I pray you what is the matter you mumur so with yourself? SPUDEUS. The truth is (O Hedoni) I seek too have knowledge of a thing, but as yet I cannot find that which maketh for my purpose. HEDO What book have you there in your bosom? SPUDE. Cicero's dialogue of the ends of goodness. HEDO. It had been far more better for you, too have sought for the beginnings of godly things, than the ends. SPUDE. Yea, but Marcus Tullius nameth the the end of godliness which is an exquisite, a far passing, and a very absolute goodness in every puincte, wherein there is contained all kind of virtue: unto the knowledge there of whosoever can attain, should desire none other thing, but hold himself having only that, as one most fully content and satisfied. HED. That is a work of very great learning and eloquence. But do you think, that you have prevailed in any thing there, whereby you have the rather come too the knowledge of the truth? SPE. I have had such fruit and commodity by it, that now verily hereafter I shall doubt more of the effect and ends of good things, than I did before. HEDO. It is for husband men too stand in doubt how far the limits and merebankes extend. SPE. And I cannot but muse still, yea, and wonder very much, why there hath been so great controversy in judgements upon so weighty a matter (as this is) amongst so well learned men: especially such as be most famous and ancient writers. HEDO. This was even the cause, where the verity of a thing is plain and manifest, contrarily, the error through ignorance again in the same, is soon great & by divers means increaseth, for that they knew not the foundation and first beginning of the whole matter, they do judge at all adventures and are very fond deceived, but whose sentence think you too be truest? SPE. When I hear MARCUS Tullius reprove the thing, I then fantasy none of all their judgements, and when I hear him again defend the cause: it maketh me more doubtful than ever I was and am in such a study, that I can say nothing. But as I suppose the Stoics have erred the jest, and next unto them I commend the Peripatetics. HEDO. Yet I like none of their opinions so well as I do the Epicures. SPU. And emongist all the sects: the Epicures judgement is most reproved and condemned with the whole consent and arbitreinent of all men. HED. Let us lay a side all disdain and spite of names, and admit the Epicure too be such one, as every man maketh of him. Let us ponder and weigh the thing as it is in very deed. He setteth the high and principal felicity of man in pleasure, and thinketh that life most pure and godly, which may have great delectation and pleasure, and little pensiveness. SPU. It is even so. HED. What more vertuouser thing, I pray you, is possible too be spoken then this saying. Spu. Yea, but all men wonder and cry out on it, and say: it is the voice of a bruit beast, and not of man. Hedo. I know they do so, but the● err in the vocables of these things, and are very ignorant of the true and native significations of the words, for if we speak of perfect things, no kind of men be more righter Epicures, than Christian men living reverently towards God and man, and in the right service and worshipping of Christ. SPV But I think the Epicures be more nearer and agree rather with the Cynics, then with the Christien sort: forsooth the Christiens make themselves lean with fasting, bewail and lament their offences, and either they be now poor, or else their charity and liberality on the needy maketh them poor, they suffer patiently too be oppressed of men that have great power and take many wrongs at their hands, and many men also laugh them too scorn. Now, if pleasure bring felicity with it, or help in any wise unto the furtherance of virtue: we see plainly that this kind of life is farthest from all pleasures. Hedonius. But do you not admit Plautus too be of authority? Speudeus. Yea, if he speak uprightly. Hedonius. Hear now them, and bear away with you the saying of an unthrifty servant, which is more wittier than all the paradoxes of the Stoics. SPE. I tarry to hear what ye will say HEDO. There is nothing more miserable than a mind unquiet & aggrieved with itself. SPE. I like this saying well, but what do you gather of it? HEDO. If nothing be more miserable than an unquiet mind, it followeth also, that there is nothing happiar, than a mind void of all fear, grudge, and unquietness SPEV. Surely you gather the thing together with good reason but that notwithstanding, in what country shall you find any such mind, that knoweth not itself guilty and culpable in some kind of evil▪ HEDO. I call that evil, which dissolveth the pure love and amity betwixt God and man. SPU. And I suppose there be very few, but that they be offenders in this thing. HEDO. And in good sooth I take it, that all those that be purdged, are clear: which wiped out their faults with lee of tears, and saltpetre of sorrowful repentance, or else with the fire of charity, their offences now be not only small grief and unquietness to them, but also chance often for some more godlier purpose, as causing than too live afterward more accordingly unto God's commandments. SPU. In deed I know saltpetre and lee, but yet I never heard before, that faults have been purdged with fire. H. Surely, if you go to the mint you shall see gold fined with fire, notwithstanding that there is also, a certain kind of linen that brenneth not if it be cast in the fire, but looketh more whiter than any water could have made it, & therefore it is called Linum asbestinum, a kind of linen, which can neither be quenched with water nor brent with fire. Spu. Now in good faith you bring a paradox more wondered than all the marvelous and profound things of the Stoics: live they pleasasauntly whom Chryst calleth blessed for that they mourn & lament? Hedonius. They seem too the world too mourn, but verily they live in great pleasure, and as the common saying is, they live all together in pleasure, in somuch that SARDANAPALUS, Philoxenus, or Apitius compared unto them: or any other spoken of, for the great desire and study of pleasures, did lead but a sorrowful and a miserable life. Spe. These things that youdeclare be so strange and new, that I can scarcely yeve any credit unto them. Hedo. Prove and assay them once, and you shall find all my sayings so true as the Gospel, and immediately I shall bring the thing too such a conclusion (as I suppose) that it shall appear too differ very little from the truth SPU. make haste then unto your purpose. HED. It shallbe done if you will grant me certain things or I begin. Spu. If in case you demand such as be reasonable. Hedo. I will take mine advantage, if you confess the thing that maketh for mine intent. Spu. go too. Hedo. I think ye will first grant me, that there is great diversity betwxt the soul and the body Spu. Even as much as there is between heaven and earth, or a thing earthly and brute, & that which dieth never, but always containeth in it the godly nature. Hedo. And also, that false deceivable & counterfeited holy things, are not too be taken for those, which in very deed be godly. Spude. No more than the shadows are too be esteemed for the bodies, or the illusions and wonders of witchcrafts or the fantasies of dreams, are too be taken as true things. HERALD Hitherto you answer aptly too my purpose, and I think you will grant me this thing also, that true and godly pleasure can rest and take place no where but only on such a mind that is sober and honest. SPU. What else? for no man rejoiceth too behold the Sun, if his eyes be bleared or else delecteth in wine, if the ague have infected his taste. HED. And the Epicure himself, or else I am deceived, would not clip & embrace that pleasure, which would bring with it far greater pain and such as would be of long continuance. SPV I think he would not, if he had any wit at all. HED. Nor you will not deny this, that God is the chief and especial goodness, than whom there is nothing fairer, there is nothing ameabler, there is nothing more delicious and sweeter. SPUDE. No man will deny this except he be very hard hearted and of an ungentlernature than the Ciclopes. HED. Now you have granted unto me, that none live in more pleasure, than they which live virtuously, and again, none in more sorrow and calamity than those that live ungraciously. Spu. Then I have granted more than I thought I had. Herald But what thing you have once confessed too be true (as Plato saith) you should not deny it afterward. SPU. Go forth with your matter. HEDO The little whelp that is set store and great price by, is fed most daintily, lieth soft, playeth and maketh pastime continually, do you think that it liveth plesauntly? SPU. It doth truly. HEDO. Would you wish to have such a life? SPU. God forbid that, except I would rather be a dog then a man, HEDO. Then you confess that all the chief pleasures arise and spring from the mind, as though it were from a wellspring. SPU. That is evident enough. HERALD Forsooth the strength and efficacy of the mind is so great, that often it taketh away the feeling of all extern and outward pain & maketh that pleasant, which by itself is very painful. SPU. We see that daily in lovers, having great delight to sit up long & too dance attendance at their lovers doors all the cold winter nights. HEDO. Now weigh this also, if the natural love of man, have such great vehemency in it, which is a common thing unto us, both with bulls and dogs, how much more should all heavenly love excel in us, which cometh of the spirit of Christ, whose strength is of such power, that it would make death a thing most terrible, too be but a pleasure unto us. Spu. What other men think inwardly I knownot, but certes they want many pleasures which cleave fast unto true and perfect virtue. Herald What pleasures? Spu. They wax not rich, they optein no promotion, they banquet not, they dance not, they sing not, they smell not of sweet ointments, they laugh not, they play not. Herald We should have made no mention in this place of riches and preferment, for they bring with them no pleasant life, but rather a sad and a pensive. Let us entreat of other things, such as they chiefly seek for, whose desire is to live deliciously, see ye not daily dronkerdes, fools, and mad men grin and leap? SPU. I see it HED. Do you think that they live most pleasantly? SPV God send mine enemies such mirth & pleasure. HERALD Why so? Sp. For there lacketh amongst them sobriety of mind. HERALD Then you had liefer sit fasting at your book, than too make pastime after any such sort. SP. Of them both: truly I had rather choose to delve. H. For this is plain that be twixt the mad man & the drunkerd there is no diversity, but that sleep will help the one his madness, & with much a do the cure of Physicians helpeth the other, but the fool natural differeth nothing from a brute beast except by shape and portraiture of body, yet they be less miserable whom nature hath made very brutes, than those that wallow themselves in foul and beastly lusts. SP. I confess that. Hedo. But now tell me, whether you think them sober and wise, which for plain vanities and shadows of pleasure, booth despise the true and godly pleasures of the mind and chose for themselves such things as be but vexation & sorrow. SPU. I take it, they be not. Hedo. In deedethei be not drunk with wine, but with love with anger, with avarice, with ambition, and other foul and filthy desires, which kind of drunkenness is far worse, than that is gotten with drinking of wine. Yet Sirus that lewd conspanion of whom mention is made in the comedy, spoke witty things after he had slept himself soobre, and called too memory his great and most beastly drunkenness: but the mind that is infected with vicious & naughty desire, hath much a do too call itself whom again? How many years doth love, anger, spite, sensuality, excess, and ambition, trouble and provoke the mind? How many do we see, which even from their youth, too their latter days never awake nor repent them of the drunkenness, of ambition, nigardness, wanton lust, & riatte? Spu. I have known overmany of that sort. Hedo. You have granted that false and feigned good things, are not too be esteemed for the pure and godly. Sp. And I affirm that still. Hedo. Nor that there is no true and perfect pleasure, except it be taken of honest and godly things. Spud. I confess that. Herald Then (I pray you) be not those good that the common sort seek for, they care not how? Spu. I think they be not. Hedo. Surely if they were good, they would not chance but only too good men: and would make all those virtuous that they happen unto. What manner of pleasure make you that, do you think it too be godly, which is not of true & honest things, but of deceitful: and coometh out of the shadows of good things? Sp. Nay in no wise. Herald For pleasure maketh us to live merely. Spu. Yea, nothing so much. Herald Therefore no man truly liveth pleasantly, but he that liveth godly: that is, which useth and delecteth only in good things: for virtue of itself, maketh a man to abound in all things that be good, perfect, & praise worthy: yea, it only provoketh God the fountain of all goodness, too love and favour man. SP. I almost consent with you. HED. But now mark how far they be from all pleasure, which seem openly amongst all men too follow nothing, but an inordinate delectation in in things carnal. First their mind is vile, and corrupted with the savour and taste of noughty desires, in so much that if any pleasant thing chance them, forthwith it waxeth bitter, and is nought set by, in like manner as where the well head is corrupted and stinketh, there the water must needs be unsavoury. Again there is no honest pleasure, but that which we receive with a sober and a quiet mind. For we see, nothing rejoiceth the angry man more, than too bec revenged on his offenders, but that pleasure is turned into pain after his rage be past, and anger subdued. Spu. I say not the contrary. Herald Finally, such lewd pleasures be taken of fallible things, therefore it followeth that they be but delusions and shadows. What would you say furthermore, if you saw a man so deceived with sorcery & also other detestable witchcrafts, eat, drink, leap, laugh, yea, and clap hands for joy, when there were no such thing there in very deed, as he believeth he seeth. Spu. I would say he were both mad and miserable. Hedo. I myself have been often in place, where the like thing hath been done. There was a priest which knew perfectly by long experience and practise, the art to make things seem that they were not, otherwise called, deceptio visus, Sp. He did not learn that art of the holy scripture? Hedo. Yea, rather of most popeholy charms and witchcrafts: that is too say, of things, cursed, damnable, and worthy too be abhorred. Certain ladies & gentlewomen of the court, spoke unto him oftentimes: saying, they would come one day too his house and see what good cheer he kept: reproving, greatly vile and homely fare, and moderate expenses in all things. He granted they should be welcome, and very instantly desired them. And they came fasting because they would have better appetites. When they were set to dinner (as it was thought) there wanted no kind of delicious meat: they filled themselves haboundantly: after the feast was done, they gave most hearty thanks, for their galant cheer, and departed, every one of them unto their own lodgings: but anon their stomachs began too wax an hungered, they marveled what this should mean, so soon to be an hungered and a thirst, after so sumptuous a feast: at the last the matter was openly known and laughed at. Spu. Not without a cause, it had been much better for than too have satisfied their stomachs at their own chambers with a mess of pottage, them too be fed so delitiousli with vain illusions. H. And as I think the common sort of men are much more too be laughed at, which in steed of Godly things, chose vain and transitory shadows, and rejoice exceedingly in such foolish fancies that turn not afterward in too a a laughter, but into everlasting lamentation and sorrow. Spudeus The more nerelier I note your sayings, the better I like them. Hedo. Go too, let us grant for a time these things too be called pleasant, that in very deed are not. Would you say that meeths were sweet: which had more Aloes mingled with it, than honey? Spud. I would not so say and if there were but the third part of an ounce of Aloes mixed with it. Hedo. or else, would you wish to be scabbed because you have some pleasure too scratch? Spud. No, if I were in my right mind. HED. Their weigh with yourself how great pain is intermingled with these false and wrongly named pleasures, that unshamefast love filthy desire, much eating and drinking bring us unto: I do omit now that, which is principal grudge of conscience, enmity betwixt God and man, and expectation of everlasting punishemment. What kind of pleasure, I pray you is there in these things, that doth not bring with it a great heap of outward evils? SPU. What be they? HEDO. We ought to let pass and forbear in this place avarice, ambition, wrath, pride envy; which of their selves be heavy and sorrowful evils and let us confer and compare all those things together, that have the name of some chief and special pleasure: where as the ague the headache, the swelling of the belly, dullness of wit, infamy, hurt of memory, vomiting, decay of stomach, trembling of the body succeed of over much drinking: think you, that the Epicure would have esteemed any such like pleasure as this, convenient and worthy desire? SPU. He would say it were utterly too be refused. HEDONi. Whereas young men also with haunting of whores (as it is daily seen) catch the new leprosy, now otherwise named Job'S ague, and some call it the scabs of Naples, through which disease they feel often the most extreme and cruel pains of death even in this life, and carry about abodye resembling very much some dead coarse or carryn, do you think that there apply themselves unto godly pleasure. SPUD. No, for after they have been often familiar with their pretyones, than they must go straight too the barber's, that chanceth continually unto all whoremongers. HED. Now fain that there were alike measure of pain and pleasure, would ye then require too have the toothache so long as the pleasure of quaffing & whore doom endured? SPU. Verily I had rather want them booth, for there is no commodity nor vantage to buy pleasure with pain but only to change one thing for another, but the heit choice is now not too affectionate any such lewdness, for MAR. Tullius calleth that an inward grief & sorrow. Herald But now the provocation & enticement of unleeful pleasure, besides that it is much less than the pain which it bringeth with it, it is also a thing of a very short time: but if the leprosy be once caught, it tourmenteth men all their life days very pitifully & oftentimes constraineth them to wish for death before they can die. SP. Such disciples as those then, the Epicure would not know. HED. For the most part poverty, a very miserable and painful burden, followeth lechery, of immoderate lust cometh the palsy, trembling of the sinews, blcardnes of eyes, and blindness, the leprosy and not these only, is it not a proper piece of work (I pray you) to change this short pleasure neither honest nor yet godly, for so many evils far more grievous and of much longer continuance. SP. Although there should no pain come of it, I esteem him to be a very fond occupier, which would change precious stones for glass. HERALD You mean that would lose the godly pleasures of the mind, for the coloured pleasures of the body. SP. That is my meaning. HERALD But now let us come to a more perfecter supputation, neither the ague nor yet poverty followeth always carnal pleasure, nor the new leprosy or else the palsy waitnot on at all times the great & excessive use of lechery, but grudge of conscience evermore is a follower & sure companion of all unleaful pleasure, than the which as it is plainly agreed betwixt us, nothing is more miserable. SPU. Yea, rather it grudgeth their conscience sometime before hand, & in the self pleasure it pricketh their mind, yet there be some that you would say, want this motion and feeling. HERALD They be now therefore in worse estate & condition. Who would not rather feel pain, than too have his body lack any perfect sense, truly from some either intemperatnes of evil desires, even like as it were a certain kind of drunkenness, or else wont and common haunt of vice which are so hardened in them, that they take a way the feeling & consideration of evil in their youth, so that when age cometh upon them beside other infinity hurts and perturbations against whose coming they should have laid up the deeds of their former life, as a special iuwel and treasure: then they stand greatly in fear of death, a thing amongst all other most inevitable, & that no man can shun: yea, and the more they have heretofore been dismayed and lacked their senses, the greater now is their unquietness and grudge of conscience, then truly the mind is suddenly awaked whether it will or no, and verily where as old age is always sad and heavy of itself for as much as it is in subjection and bondage unto many incommodities of nature, but than it is far more wretched and also filthy, if the mind unquiet with itself shall trouble it also: feasts, riotous banqueting, singing, and dancing, with many such other wanton toys & pastimes which he was commonly given unto & thought very pleasant when he was young, be now painful unto him being old and crooked, ne age hath nothing too comfort and fortify itself withal, but only too remember that it hath passed over the course of years in virtue and godly living and conceive a special trust too obtain hereafter a better kind of life. These be the two staves whereupon age is stayed, & if in their steed you will lay on him these two burdens: that is, memory how sinfully he hath led his life, and desperation of the felicity that is too come, I pray you what living thing can be feigned too suffer sorer punishment and greater misery?. spu. Verily I can see nothing although some man would say an old horse. hedo. Then to conclude it is too late to wax wise And that saying appeareth now too be very true. Careful mornings do oftentimes follow merry eventides, and all vain and outrageous mixth ever turneth into sorrowful sighs: yea, & they should have considered both that there is no pleasure above the joyfulness of the heart, and that cheerful mind maketh age too flourish, an heavy spirit consumeth the bones, & also that all the days of the poor are evil: that is, sorrowful and wretched. And again a quiet mind is like a continual feast. SPUDEUS. Therefore they be wise, that thrive in time, and gather together necessaries for that age coom. HEDONI. The holy scripture entreateth not so wordly as too measure the felicity and high consolation of man, by the goods of fortune, only he is very poor, that is destitute and void of all grace & virtue, and standeth in bondage and debette, both of body & soul unto that tyrant our most foo & mortal enemy the devil. SPU. Surely he is one that is veri rigorous and impatient in demanding of his duty. HERALD Moreover that man is rich, which findeth mercy and foryeovenes at the hands of god. What should he fear, that hath such a protector? Whether men? where as plainly their hole power may less do agaenst God, than the biting of a gnat, hurteth the Elephant. Whether death? truly that is a right passage for good men unto all sufficient joy and perfection according too the just reward of true religion and virtue. Whether hell? For as in that the holy prophet speaketh boldly unto God. Although I should walk in the midst of the shadow of death, I will not fear any evils because thou art with me. Wherefore should he stand in fear of devils, which beareth in his heart him, that maketh the devils too tremble and quake. For in divers places the holy scripture praiseth and declareth openly the mind of a virtuous man, too be the right temple of God. And this to be so true that that it is not too be spoken against, ne in any wise should be denied. SPU. Forsooth I can not see, by what reason these sayings of yours can be confuted although they seem too vary much from the vulgar and common opinion of men. HEDO. Why do they so? SPU. After your reasoning every honest poor man, should live a more pleasant life, than any other, how much soever he did abound in riches, honour, and dignity: and briefly though he had all kind of pleasures. HERALD Add this too it (if it please you) too be a king, yea, or an emperor if you take away a quiet mind with itself, I dare boldly say, that the poor man sklenderlye and homely apparelled, made weak with fasting, watching, great toil and labour, and that hath scarcely a groat in all the world, so that his mind be godly, he liveth more deliciously than that man which hath five hundredth times greater pleasures & delicates, then ever had Sardanapalus. SP. Why is it them, that we see commonly those that be poor look far more heavily than rich men. HED. Because some of them be twice poor, either some disease, neediness, watching, labour, nakedness, do so weaken the state of their bodies, that by reason thereof, the cheerfulness of their minds never showeth itself, neither in these things, nor yet in their death. The mind, forsooth though it be enclosed within this mortal body, yet for that it is of a stronger nature, it somewhat transfourmeth and fascioneth the body after itself, especially if the ve hement instigation of the spirit approach the violent inclination of nature: this is the cause we see oftentimes such men as be virtuous die more cheerfully, than those that make pastime continually, & be given unto all kind of pleasures. SP. In very deed, I have marveled oftten at that thing. HEAD Forsooth it is not a thing too be marveled at, though that there should be unspeakable joy and comfort where God is is present, which is the heed of all mirth and gladness, now this is no strange thing, although the mind of a godly mad do rejoice continually in this mortal body: where as if the same mind or spirit descended into the lowest place of hell should lose no part of felicity, for wheresoever is a pure mind, there is god, where God is: there is paradise, there is heaven, there is felicity, where felicity is: there is the true joy and synsere gladness. SP. But yet they should live more pleasantly, if certain incommodities were taken from them, and had such pastimes as either they despise or else can not get nor attain unto. HERALD (I pray you) do you mean, such incommodities as by the common course of nature follow the condition or state of man: as hunger, thirst, disease, weariness, age, death, lightening yearthquake, floods & battle? SPU. I mean other, and these also. HEDO. Then we entreat still of mortal things and not of immortal, & yet in these evils the state of virtuous men, may be better borne withal, then of such as seek for the pleasures of the body they care not how. SPU. Why so? HEDO. especially because their minds be accustomed and hardened with most sure and moderate governance of reason against all out ragious affections of the mind and they take more patiently those things that cannot be shunned then the other sort do Furthermore, for as much as they perceive, all such things are sent of god, either for the punishment of their faults, or else too excitate and stir them up unto virtue, than they as meek and obedient children receive them from the hand of their merciful father, not only desirously, but also cheerfully and give thanks also, namely for so merciful punishment and inestimable gains. SPU. But many do occasion griefs unto themselves. HEDO. But ●o seek remedy at the Physicians, either to preserve their bodies in health or else if they be sick, too recover health, but willingly too cause their own sorrows, that is, poverty, sickness, persecution, slander, except the love of God compel us thereto, it is novertue but foolishness: but as of-often as they be punished for Christ and justice sake, who dare be so bold as too call them beggars & wretches? when the Lord himself very familiarly calleth them blessed, and commandeth us to rejoice for their state and condition. SPU. Nevertheless, these things have a certain pain and grief. HEDO. They have, but on the onesyde, what for fear of hell, and the other for hoop of everlasting joy, the pain is soon past and forgotten Now tell me if you knew that you might never be sick, or else that you should feel no pain of your body in your life time, if you would but once suffer your utter skin too be pricked with a pins puinct, would you not gladly and with all your very heart suffer then so little a pain as that is? SPV Very gladly, yea, rather if I knew perfectly that my teeth would never ache, I would willingly suffer too be pricked deep with a needle, and too have both mine ears bored through with a bodkin. HEDO. Surely what pain soever happeneth in this life, it is less and shorter, compared with the eternal pains, then is the sudden prick of a needle, incomparison of the life of man though it be never so long, for there is no convenience or proportion of the thing that hath end, and that which is infinite. SPU. You speak very truly. HEDO. Now if a man could fully persuade you, that you should never feel pain in all your life, if you did but once divide the flame of the fire, with your hand, which thing undoughtely Pythagoras forbade, would you not gladly do it? SPU. Yea, on that condition I had liefer do it an hundred times, if I knew precisely the promiser would keep touch. HERALD It is plain God cannot deceive. But now that feeling of pain in the fire is longer unto the whole life of man▪ then is the life of man, in respect of the heavenly joy, although it were thrice so long as the years of Nestor, for that casting of the hand in the fire though it be never so short, yet it is some part of his life, but the whole life of man is no portion of time in respect of the eternal life, SPU. I have nothing too say against you. HEDO. Do you then think that any affliction or torment can disquiet those that prepare themselves with a cheerful heart and a steadfast hoop unto the kingdom of God, where as the course of this life is now so short? SPUDE. I think not, if they have a sure persuasion and a constant hope too attain. it. HEDO. I come now unto those pleasures, which you objected against me, they do withdraw themselves from dancing, banqueting, from pleasant seeghtes, they dispyce all these things, as thus: for to have the use of things far more ioyfulle, and have as great pleasure as these be, but after another sort: the eye hath not seen, the ear hath not heard, nor the heart of man cannot think what consolations GOD hath ordained for them that love him. Sayncte Paul knew what manner of things should be the songs, queeres, dancings, and banquets of virtuous minds, yea, in this life. SPUDEUS but there be some lawful pleasures, which they utterly refuse. HEDONIUS. That may be, for the immoderate use of lawful and godly games or pastimes, is unleaful: and if you will except this one thing only, in all other they excel which seem too lead a painful life, and whom we take too be overwhelmed with all kind of miseries. Now I pray you what more roialler sight can there be, than the contemplation of this world? and such men as the be in favour of god keeping his holy commandments & love his most blessed testament, receive far greater pleasure in the sight thereof, than tother sort do, for while they behold with overcurious eyes, that wondered work, their mind is troubled because they can not compass for what purpose he doth such things, than they improve the most right and wise governor of all and mumur at his doings as though they were gods of reprehension: and often find fault with that lady nature, and say that she is unnatural, which taunt forsooth with as much spite as can be showed with words, grieveth nature: but truly it redoundeth on him, that made nature, if there be any at all. But the virtuous man with godly & simple eyes beholdeth with an exceeding rejoice of heart the works of his Lord and father highly praising them all, and neither reprehendeth nor findeth fault with any of them, but for every thing yeoveth most hearty thanks, when he considereth that all were made for the love of man. And so in all things, he prayeth unto the infinite power, divine wisdom, & goodness of the maker, whereof he perceiveth most evident tokens in things that be here created. Now fain that there were such a palace in very deed as Apuleus feigneth, or else one that were more royal and gorgeous, and that you should take two thither with you too behold it, the one a stranger, which goeth for this intent only too see the thing, and the other the servant or son of him that first causeth this building, whether will have more delectie in it? the stranger, too whom such manner of house doth nothing appartain, or the son which beholdeth with great joy and pleasure, the wit, riches, and magnificence of his dearly beloved father, especially when he doth consider all this work was made for his sake. Sp. Your question is too plain: for they most commonly that be of evil conditions, know that heaven and all things contained therein, wer● made for man's sake. HEDO. Almost all know that, but some do not remember it, showing themselves unthankful for the great and exhuberant benefits of god, & all though they remember it, yet that man taketh greater delight in the sight of it which hath more love unto the maker thereof, in like manner as, he more cheerfully will behold the element which aspireth toward the eternal life. SPU. Your sayings are much like too be true. HED. Now the pleasures of feasts doth not consist in the delicates of the mouth, nor in the good sauces of cooks, but in health of body and appetite of stomach. You may not think that any delicious person suppeth more pleasantly having before him partridges, turtelles, leverets, bekers, sturgeon, and lampreys: then a virtuous man having nothing too eat, but only bread pottage, or wortes: and nothing too drink, but water, single bear, or wine well allayed, because he taketh these things as prepared of God unto all living creatures, and that they be now given unto him of his gentle and merciful father, prayer maketh every thing too savour well. The petition in the beginning of dinner sanctifieth all things and in a while after there is recited some holy lesson of the word of God: which more refresheth the mind, than meat the body, and grace after all this. Finally he riseth from the table, not full: but recreated, not laden, but refreshed: yea, refreshed both in spirit and body, think you that any chief deviser of these much used banquets, & dainty delicaces fareth now more deliciously? SPudeus. But in Venus there is great delectations if we believe Arestotell. Hed. And in this behalf the virtuous man far excelleth as well as in good fare, wiegh you now the matter as it is, the better a man loveth his wife, the more he delecteth in the good fellow ship and familiarity that is between them after the course of nature. Furthermore, no men loven their wives more vehemently than they that love them even so, as Christ loved the church. For they that love them for the desire of bodily pleasure, love them not. More over, the seldomer any man doth accompany with his wife, the greater pleasure, it is to him afterward, and that thing the wanton poet knew full well which writeth, rare and seldom use steereth up pleasures. Albeit, the lest part of pleasure is in the familiar company between them. There is forsooth far greater in the continual leading of their lives together, which amongst none can be so pleasant as those that love sincerely and faithfully together in godly and christian love, and love a like one the other. In the other sort, often when the pleasure of the body decayeth & waxeth old love waxeth cooled & is soon forgotton, but amongst right christian men, the more that the lust of the flesh decreaseth & vanishethaway, the more than all godly love increaseth Are you not yet persuaded that none live more pleasantly than they which live continually in virtue and true religion of god? SP. Would god all men were as well persuaded in that thing. Herald And if they be Epicures that live pleasauntli: none be righter Epicures than they that live virtuously, and if we will that every thing have it right name none deserveth more the cogname of an Epicure, than that Prince of all godly wisdom too whom most reverently we ought always too pray: for in the greek tongue an Epicure signifieth an helper. Now when the law of nature was first corrupted with lin, when the law of Moses did rather provoke evil desires than then remedy them. When the tyrant Sathanas reigned in this world freely and without punishment, than this prince only, did suddenly help mankind ready to perish: wherefore they err shamefully which scoff and babble that CHRIST was one that was sad and of a malancolye nature, & that he hath provoked us unto an unpleasant kind of life, for only he did show a kind of living most godly and fullest of all true pleasure, if we might have the stone of Tantalus taken away from us. SPUD. What dark saying is this? EDO. It is a merry tale too laugh at, but this board in duceth very grave and sad things. SPU. I tarry too hear this merry conceit, that you name too be so sage a matter. HE They which gave their study and diligence to colour and set furth the precepts of Philosophy with subtle fables, declare that there was one Tantalus brought unto the table of the gods, which was ever furnished with all good fare, and most neat and sumptuous that might be, when this stranger should take his leave, jupiter thought it was for his great liberality and high renown, that his guest should not departed without some reward, he willed him therefore too ask what he would, and he should have it: Tantalusus (forsooth) like a very lewd and foolish person, for that he set all the felicity and pleasure of man in the delectation of the belly, and gluttony, desired but only too sit at such a table all the days of his life, jupiter granted him his desire, and shortly his vow was there established and ratified. Tantalus now sitteth at the table furnished with all kinds of delicates, such drink as the gods drunk of was set on the table, and there wanted no roses nor odours that could yeve any sweet smell before the Gods, Ganymedes the butler or one like unto him, standeth ever ready, the Muses stand round about singing pleasantly, merry Silenus danceth, ne●ther wanted no fools too laugh at, and briefly, there there was every thing that could delight any sense of man but amongst all these, Tantalus sitteth all sad, sighing, and unquiet with himself, neither laughing nor yet touching such things as were set before him SPUDE. What was the cause? HED. Over his head as he sat there hanged by an hecre a great stone ever like too fall. SPU. I would then have conveyed myself from such a table. HEDO But his vow had bound him too the contrary, for jupiter is not so easy too entreat as our GOD, which doth unloose the pernicious vows of men, that be made contrary unto his holy word, if they be penitent and sorry therefore, or else it might be thus, the same stone that would not suffer him too eat, would neither suffer him to rise, for if he had but ones moved he should have been quashed all in peeses with the fall thereof. SPUDE. You have showed a very merry fable HEDON. But now hear that thing, which you will not laugh at: the common people seek too have a pleasant life in out ward things, where as noothing can yeve that, but only a constant and a quiet mind: for surely a far heavier stone hangeth over these that grudge with themselves, then hanged over Tantalus: it only hangeth not over them, but grieveth and oppresseth the mind, ne the mind is not troubled with any vain hoop, but looketh every hour to be cast in too the pains of hell, I pray you what can be so pleasant amongst all things that be yeoven unto man, that could rejoice the mind, which were oppressed with such a stone? SPUDE. Truly there is nothing but madness, or else incredulity. HEDO. If young men would weigh these things, that be quickly provoked and enticed with pleasure as it were with the cup of Circe's, which in stead of their greatest pleasures receive poison mixed with honey. How circumspect would they be too do any thing unadvisedly that should grudge their minds afterward? What thing is it that they would not do too have such a godly treasure in store against their latter days? that is a mind knowing itself clean & honest and a name that hath not been defiled at any time. But what thing now is more miserable than is age? When it beholdeth, and looketh backward on things that be passed seeth plainly with great grudge of conscience how fair things he hath despiced and set light by, (that is, how far he hath dissented and gone astray from the promises made unto God in baptism) & again, how foul & naughty things he hath clipped and embraced, and when he looketh forward, he seeth then the day of judgement draw near, and shortly after the eternal punishment of of hell. SPUDE. I esteem them most happy which have never defiled their youth, but ever have increased in virtue, till they have coomne unto the last puincte of age. HEDO. Next them they are too be commended that have withdrawn themselves from the folly of youth in time. SPUDE. But what council will you yeve age that is in such great misery. HEDO. No man should despair so long as life endureth, I will exhort him to flee for help unto the infinity mercy & gentleness of God. SP. But the longer that he hath lived the heap of his sins hath ever waxed great and greater, so that now it passeth the number of the sands in the sea, HE But the mercies of our lord far exceed those sands, for although the sand can not be numbered of man, yet it hath an end, but the mercy of God neither knoweth end, ne measure. SP. Yea but he hath no space that shall die by and by, HEDONI. The less time he hath the more fervently he should call unto god for grace, that thing is long enough before God, which is of such power as too ascend from the earth unto heaven, for a short prayer forsooth straightly entereth heaven, if it be made with a vehement spirit. It is written, the the woman sinner spoken of in the gospel did penance all her life days: but with how few words again did the thief obtain Paradise in the hour of death? If he will cry with heart and mind, God have mercy on me after thy great mercy: God will take away from him Tantalus stone and yeove in his hearing joy and comfort and his bones humiled through contrition, will rejoice that he hath his sins for yeoven him. FINIS. Imprinted at London withir the precinct of the late dissolved house of the grey Friars, by Richard Grafton, Printer too the Prince's grace. the. XXIX. day of july, the year of our Lord. M. D. XLV. EICHDIEN. P SUSCIPITE INCITUM VERBVM●● JACO. I