PURGATORIES TRIUMPH OVERDO HELL, Maugre The barking of Cerberus in Sir Edward Hobyes' Countersnarle. DESCRIBED In a Letter to the said Knight, from I. R. Author of the Answer unto the Protestants Pulpit-babels'. judith 11. vers. 15. Et non latrabit vel unus Canis. Permissu Superiorum, M.DC.XIII. TO THE RIGHT WORSHIPFUL SIR EDWARD HOBY KNIGHT. SIR, SING it pleaseth you by the Metaphor of (a) Conters pag. 7. Gelons yolping Cur, to express the Mystery of your Counter-snarling answer to the part of my Treatise, wherein you thought yourself touched: Sure I am, you may not justly, I hope you will not without cause, be offended, that I likewise give you to understand, the drift of my Purgatory Letter, in a Parable of like nature. The respectful affection of my Country's sovereign good, that in the Pinnace of my short Confutation of a railing Sermon, landed in your learned Courts, seemeth to have felt favour at your hands, not unlike unto that, which Aenaeas his piety to his diseased parent, sailing towards the Elysian fields, found, at his first setting foot on the shore. You are not to learn (having been scholar at Eton) (b) pag. 61. with what an unfriendly welcome, the three-mouthed Cerberus, grim Porter of Plut'os' Palace entertained that pious Pilgrim, with such a noise of Hellish clamours, as even the damned Ghosts were therewith appalled. Neither have you, I think, forgotten the peal of unlovely terms wherewith your Countersnarle saluted my little Pinnace, making towards the haven of your favour, with an olive branch, held out, of hearty wishes of your Eternal Happiness, and not without the displayed flag of due Respect, even to your worldly honour, or any other Worthy Quality in you. I presented unto you (c) Praf. pag. 22. the Merchandise I had bought, and brought with some coste●●n treating you, to vouchsafe a particular perusal thereof, that by comparison, you might discern the counterfeit stuff of false slanders, which crafty tradesmen had laid upon your hands. And to the end you might with your eyes, behold the perfidious dealing of such wily factors, I (d) pag. 133. laid open before you two or three pieces of S. Augustine (for such by you cited) full of holes and patches of another cloth and colour, which I had just cause to think you had taken in gross, upon the credit of some Merchant or Minister of your Gospel, who fear not to sell such broken stuff, even for the fairest garments, hiding their falsehood, with fine words, and with a deep die of protestations, that they produce Authors sincerely. I proved M. Crashaw, whom you praised most, was, more than any other, chargeable of such fraudulent tricks, that he sold you spider's webs, spun out of his own bowels, for cloth of silver, woven by Catholic Authors, & I grieved, that so soaring a Wit, as I conceived yours was, should so flutter in a cobweb of palpable untruths. Wherein could I declare towards you greater Affection, then in seeking to make you see the truth, in a business of such weight, whereon your eternal weal or woe doth depend? Or how could I have performed this duty of charity, with more regard unto your Person, then by freeing you, from the suspicion of false dealing, declining the falsifications of that learned Father, on some Minister, whom I did & probably might suspect, had made them to your hands? If therein I erred, how easily might you have pardoned my error, caused out of respect unto your Honour, by imitating Nathan, who reprehended the Kingly Prophet in a third person? But truly I did believe, those falsehoods did not spring from yourself, & still the baseness of that deformed creature, full of falsehoods and reproaches against holy things, as I do discover in this Letter, makes me unwilling to give my consent, to naturalise the same, as the natural issue of any worthy Parent. This than was my dutiful Affection, which notwithstanding, you set your yolping Cur upon my Treatise, that came in so lovely a manner to offer you service, defiling and tearing the same with foul contumelies. You Hierogliph my name of I. R. in (e) pag. 67. English, (f) pag. 76. Latin, and (g) pag. 4. Hebrew, making me in the one jack Rogue, in the other Iscarioth de Rubigine, and Ishmael Rabshacheh in the third, wherewith you join the surname of Cecropidan Lycaonite in the title of your book, to show that you can also snarl in Greek, which you do so learnedly, that I confess, I know not what you mean, nor why you afterward term me falsifying Cecropidan, bellowing and roaring Lycaonite, hypodidascalian Pedadogue, the most brazenfaced intruder that ever Fooliana harboured, the most fowle-mouthed Imp that ever Cerberus bred, or Crete saw, a Polypragmist wholly compact of mocking and railing, that seemeth to have the mixed quintessence of them both, that, my undaunted spirit many miles outstrippeth my leaden art and heavie-heeld learning, an openmouth fellow, a fleeting gudgeon, audacious vassal, Pezantique fugitive, Rodomantado, and Romified Renagado, which ruding letter springs so naturally in your mouth, that you read me Rudent for Student in Divinity, covering the wolues-skin of a Lycaonite, with the long-sided shirts of a fools coat, saying, you never saw man that was a verier Ass. These, Sir Edward, & such like snarls, whereof your kennel doth sound, I assure you, do not move me to anger, but to much pity towards you. Had I thought my respective lines would have put you into such a distemper, I do verily believe I should have forborn those friendly admonitions I gave you. You could not have given a greater sign, then loud and rude cries, that my weapons, which you would have thought weak (h) p. 26. Istae sunt machinae haereticorum ut de perfidia convicti, ad maledicta se conferant. Hieron. Apolog. 3. adverse. Ruff. c. 11. were indeed strong & did pierce deeply: it being the property of Heretics as S. Hierome noteth, when they are convinced of falsehood, to return reproachful Answers. You could not by any means, have more honoured my Treatise, then by new devised titles, which you would not have sailed into Fooliana to fetch, had they been the natural fruit of my ground. Yet that you may perceive, that the noise of your clamours drowneth not in my heart the voice of charity, which moveth me to seek your good, I have taken the pains to return an Answer unto your lines, which I might most justly contemn. I have appealed with the wronged widow from Philip unto Philip, to your second and more sober thoughts, hoping that your rageful fumes being spent in this blast against me, your cleared understanding will behold the foulness of your speech, which then in your writing your passion might hide. I am not ignorant that the best way to stop the mouth of Snarlers, is to make no account of their words: yet both my respect of your Honour, and desire of your everlasting Happiness have won me to seek the quietting of your arring Passion with a mild Reply before I cast off your snarling reproaches with disdainful silence. Herein I follow the example of the Cumaean, Virgin that was guide to Aenaeas in his foresaid journey. Cui Vates horrere videns iam colla colubris. She seeing that Hellish Mastiff to bristle his snakes, and ready to invade her charge, to divert his anger, cast before him, Melle saporatam & medicatis frugibus offam, A sop seasoned with honey and medicinable herbs, which sweet morsel did so appease his fury, that having fawned on her without more ado, he laid down his sleepy limbs to rest in his vast kennel. But having cast your barking Cerberus into a sleep in my first Chapter, the rest of my Letter I spend in the spoil of your Hell, I mean in the confutation of the Letter full of blasphemies which some years since you wrote against Purgatory. I have reduced my discourse to four heads, wherewith I encounter the four enemies a Christian verity may have, and which in your Letter band against this point of Catholic Doctrine, to wit, Devils who by lying, Philosophers who by reason, Heretics who by Scripture, Atheists who by jesting seek to overthrow the Truth. I discover the Falsehood, both of your Letter and Countersnarle concerning the Canonical authority of the books of Maccabees, where the practice of praying for souls in Purgatory is praised. I lay open the vanity of your Logic by which you cavil at our Catholic deduction of Purgatory from Christ his words, in the 12. of S. Matthew. I show the weakness of your scriptural assault to defeat the perpetual tradition of the Church, standing in defence of this Doctrine. By the light of miracles, wherewith GOD doth, and still in all ages did illustrate his Church, I dissolve the smoky mists of the Atheistical scoffs which vamp from your pen. And seeing in your Countersnarle you will needs pluck a crow with me about the first planting of Christianity amongst the English Saxons, therewith I conclude my Letter, showing that we were from Paganism converted to the Catholic belief of Purgatory; yea that S. Gregory whom your ministers use to charge to have been the greatest Patron of this doctrine, was the chiefest Author under GOD of this our happy purgation from heathenish superstition. So that this my Letter, describing five Victories of Purgatory over your Falsehood, Philosophy, Heresy, Atheism, Idolatry, may be termed, Purgatories Triumph over your hell. Thus much concerning the matter and substance of my answer. Ne respondeas stulto juxta stultitiam svam. Respond stulto juxta stultitiam suam. Prou. 26. v. 4. As for the manner, I have sought to join two Counsels of the holy Ghost, which seem contrary, together in my Letter, To answer, and not to answer a fool according to his folly; to make my discourse serious as the subject thereof doth require, yet lend now and then a few lines unto the discovery of your trifles. I have followed Pythagoras his advise, not to stab the fire, Ignem ne fodito. which from the bramble-bush of your distempered thoughts flashed: yet have I done my best to quench it, not with the cold water of a dull denial, nor with the oil of sinners, which might increase your flame, by soothing you in your error; but with that liquor you are said to love well, with wine and sugar, which together with the secret influence of Love, wanteth not virtue to draw out the corruption that maketh your sores angry. I have made you a Purgatory salad into which I have put 5. medecinable herbs; The Authority of the ancient Church and Fathers before Christ: The word of Christ himself insinuating the same: The Custom of the Church: The warrant of Miracles: The first Christianity of our Country. Five potent reasons to move you to embrace the Catholic doctrine in this point and others, or at least to purge some part of your profane humours against it. Into this salad I have powered the oil of charitable exhortations, though sometimes I must confess the vinegar of sharper reprehension goeth mingled therewith; yet not in such store as may make the same justly displeasing to your taste. The judicious Reader that may perchance look into this Letter, will not wonder that your rude hammering with heavy reproaches on the rock of Truth, together with the gentle sound of a solid Answer, hath also fetched out some lively sparks of just disdain. Such sparks did fly sometimes even from that marble Pillar (as you term him) Saint Augustine, as doth appear in his writings, though provoked with injurious speeches, he did (as he saith) endeavour, as much as might be, to curb the motions of anger, Fraenatis atque coercitis vanae indignationis aculeis auditori, lectorique consulens, non ago ut efficiar homini convitiando superior, sed errorem convincendo salubrior. l. 3. contr. lit. Petil. c. 1. and seek to overcome his adversaries, not by strong return of injurious reproaches to disgrace their persons, but by clear demonstration of the victorious Truth, the belief whereof might bring them unto eternal life. This is my drift, and having so worthy a pattern and precedent before my eyes, I will begin. THE FIRST CHAPTER. YOUR WEAK ACCUSATIONS OF my Treatise, which you traduce, as respectless and unlearned, with jests at some phrases, doctrines and histories thereof. ALTHOUGH your skill in Physic make you write that (a) Letter to M. T. H. pag. 10. much fasting causeth a vertigo, or giddiness of the brain, yet could I have wished that you had read fasting those few lines of my Treatise which concern yourself; perhaps that which now you mistake as uttered to your reproach, would have seemed spoken rather in your Honour. For you might have perceived that in my short Censure you so much repine at, I did divide the three degrees of comparison betwixt your three most commendable qualities, Valour, Learning, Wit. I gave the positive to your Valour, which I did suppose was famous, though not being acquainted with your particular exploits, I could not enlarge myself in your military praises. The comparative I did assign to your Pen, which is better known unto me, and seeming to deserve precedence, I termed more famous, praising your curious style, which though over light for a grave Divine, I was willing to wink thereat, thinking such a gaudy attire might beseem a courtly Writer. To your Wit I did reserve the superlative degree, whose high pitch, with an allusion to your name I did express under the metaphor of a soaring Bird. Neither did my dull capacity then mark how nigh a kin to a Buzzard the soaring Bird was I did allude unto. My conceit, which you acknowledge to be simple, did without any fraud sincerely aim at your praise. If I did prefer your Wit and Learning, before your Valour, you have no just cause of offence; for I praised in you those things most, which are most proper to men, giving you Excellency before some men in those qualities, by which all men exceed brute beasts: which apprehension of your Wit, if it did extenuate in my thoughts the just value of your courage, I might excuse my error with a verse of Cato, Ingenio pollet cui vim natura negavit. with which kind of stuff you fill your margin. 2. But now your Countersnarle maketh me fall into the account, and find the true cause why so mild a censure might drive you into so great fits of choler: your ambitious thoughts soar so high in the conceit of your own Worth, that mean commendations cannot reach them. You must have (b) Countersn. p. 3. Pandora's box with all gifts in the superlative degree bequeathed unto you. You say, you will not (c) pag. 20. undertake to be so cunning a star-gazer as to determine whether Mars or Mercury had the predominance in your nativity, which also may be the cause that you say I cannot distinguish betwixt a Helmet and a Coventrie Cap., because I did crown you rather with Mercury's Hat, than Mars his Helmet. Though you speak much against praising one's self both in text and margin, where you cite a verse of Cato against that folly, Nec te collaudes, nec te culpaveris ipse; yet you are so unmindful of the very next verse, Hoc faciunt stulti, quos gloria vexat inanis, that you play Miles gloriosus almost in every page of your Pamphlet. Your skill in Logic hath made as (d) pa. 60. tall Logicians as myself to scratch the best paul they had for an answer. Your conceit is so exquisite that you can understand (e) pag. 58. not only the argument, but even the most artificial conveyance of the best writers; your memory is so miraculous, that you are able (f) pag. 59 to city more than a piece of S. Austen at the table without a prompter, insinuating that you have the large volumes of that learned Father without book. Your martial valour hath made (g) pa. 20. your enemies feel the sharpness of your sword, though such hath been your happiness, that your enemies have been few. I confess my pen, though desirous to spread itself in your praise within the compass of truth, durst not reach the high pitch of this your self-flattering flight. 3. And now seeing you provoke me thereunto, though I be loath to meddle with your Mars, yet thus much I will add, that your Letter wherein I found token of Wit, gave me just cause to suspect your Valour. First because therein you declare what a most dismal terror of death hath possessed your thoughts, in prudent contempt whereof Fortitude doth consist. You confess (h) Letter to M. T. H. pag. 3. that the horror of the gunpowder plot doth still lively represent before you, even in my dreams (say you) and imprint in my most serious thoughts that furious blast, which I myself, my poor self, should have sensibly felt. Had you detested that wicked treason, as a bloody massacre of so many worthy Peers of the Realm, had you trembled thereat as at an (i) Conters. 67. erynnical attempt against his sacred Majesty & his Royal issue, with a moderate feeling of your private danger, such a fit might have beseemed a Knight. Now the only cause of your tears and fears are, I, poor I, which II's had that powder put out, the common wealth had not lost any whit of her sight. 4. No less want of Nobility and Valour do you show in desiring, that the most superlative severity, and sharpest research may be prosecuted against Catholics, especially (k) Letter pag. 4. Priests and jesuits, whom you term the Viperous brood of those merciless hellhounds, Quibus, say you, ipsa misericordia me vivo numquam ignosceret, whom mercy itself should be thought cruel ever to forgive. Execution in these cases were better than disputation. How gladly I would see the one may appear by my forward attempt of the other. And in your margin you make a verse that exceedeth no less in fury then in feet, stulta est clementia perituro parcere funi. Thus we may be sure, that as long as your Patrimony lasteth, ropes shall not want to hang us; yea rather then the mercy of the Prince should spare us, you seem ready to play the executioner yourself. Can any noble blood harbour in that heart, that is so greedy of their innocent blood who detest that bloody plot, more, and for higher respects than yourself? The (l) Corpora magnanimo satis est prostrasse leoni. Lion spareth his prostrate enemy, whereas (m) At lupus & turpes instant morientibus ursi. you long to tear out our hearts, in which you cannot find any sin, besides an over fervent desire to help you to heaven. 5. Which my charity and respect towards you the world will more admire, seeing you protest in that Letter (n) Lett. p. 5. to detest irreconciliably all the incendiaries of the Romish forge, so your snarling style pleaseth to term us according to your manner, not our (o) Quibusdam canibus innatum est, ut ex sola consuetudine latrent. merit. You will reckon it, you say, amongst (p) pag. 4. your capital and dreadful sins, if you do not your best both by sword and pen to revenge that treason, signifying, that you mean with these two weapons to make havoc both of our souls & bodies, working our temporal death by the one, our eternal by the other. If this be your meaning, I do not marvel that in your Kitish affection you directed unto Catholic ladies a Letter fraught with falsehood, and profane arguments against truth, which prevailing might have caused the death of their souls. You thought such rare Creatures as you term them, an easy and obvious prey, being for the most part unlearned, not knowing that they had learned of Christ to join (q) Mat. 10. the wisdom of the serpent, with the simplicity of the dove. That you had that cruel intent, you give me just cause to think by the vow which you are ready to make (r) pag. ●. never to forgive us (did not your protestant Charity give you a restraint) until you hear our pardon pronounced by the mouth of the most supreme judge, when forsooth we shall have great need of your pardon. But though you were restrained in your text, you take liberty in your margin, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. saying in Greek, you will forgive us neither in this world, nor in the world to come, & in a Latin verse, Ante leues ergo pascentur in aethere cerui; stags in the air shall sooner fly and feed. Let him make the case his own that censureth me for over much bitterness. Thus you. 6. Can there be greater cruelty than the desire of our eternal perdition, to vow it with your mouth, and seek it with your pen? You say in your excuse, that the devil could not deny pellem pro pelle, but your Protestant Charity seemeth to exceed the devils cruelty, not content to have had the skins of those that would have had yours: you seek also that their souls, yea the souls of others that profess the same faith may be damned for the sins of those few. Is this Protestant charity? Tantae ne animis caelestibus irae? I cannot believe that indeed such barbarous desires lodge in your breast. I think your passionate pen exceeded your angry wishes: yet you cannot deny, but it was charity in me to wink at such unworthy writing, and, notwithstanding your protested irreconcilable hatred against us, to use you with all due respect, not laying the blemishes to your Valour and Nobility, which I might; yea I let both your sword and your pen, our professed enemies, pass without touch, yea rather with praise. 7 Another token could I allege that you want knightly Prowess, namely your singular dexterity in the use of the feminine weapon. A barking cur seldom bites; scarce shall you find one valiant of his hands, that doth delight to skirmish with words; he seemeth to want the courage of valiant Hector to fight in his own defence, that like snarling Hecuba seeks verbal revenge. You cannot deny your barking language, which as you shame not to profess in the title: so likewise you fail not to perform in your Treatise: the first Paragraph whereof not able to number threescore lines chargeth the Church of Rome with all these reproaches, Her artificial shadows, ugly shape, counterfeit colours, wrinkled deformities, bainfull lust, forging and forcing the countenance of Antiquity, impious positions, whorish practices, usurping impudence, impudent usurpation, a shrewish, distracted, malcontent in her frantic mood, pulling, hailing, spurning, scratching, & tearing all that stands in her way, though never so noble by descent, eminent in place, profound in judgement, famous for ●●●rning, skilful in tongues, that if they refuse to dance a round in her Orgious Antic, she will be sure they shall not pass without a broken head or black eye. Her suborned Panders, whifling Agents, venomous crudities, malevolous aspersions, surfeyted stomachs, infectious dregs, and Hellish drugs cast out of her sulphureous pit. 8. These and other snarls you sound out within the compass of few lines; if (as you say) (s) Counters. p. 24. he which bringeth a great army into the field without victuals or munition, is like to go by the worst, you that muster an army of reproaches against the Church without the munition of any proof, without any bit of reason to maintain and make them good, what may you expect? I fear you will go by the worst title that men of your Order have, to be thought a taller man of your tougne then of your hands. You make a long discourse of the (t) pag. 19 bushels of salt you eat in foreign countries, Enumerat miles vulnera. which made you so wise, that you never ran on the pikes of needless dangers: you speak much of your wars, but little of your wounds; the cause whereof I do think was indeed your Heedines, which I do commend, (v) p. 68 Periti bellatoris est non minùs scire fugiendi artem quàm pugnandi. and allow that principle of valour you set down in latin (u) that a good soldier should know as well how to run away, as to fight, which I mean to practise if you challenge me to the field, as the Poesy of your snarl, Comitantur praelia praelum, may seem to threaten. 9 I cannot think that your not being given to quarrels is the reason you sleep in a sound skin, except fear make your tongue less unruly than your pen. You are ready to give me the lie in defence of a Hangman, (x) pag. 16. because I said he put a Priest to death in Oxford: you quarrel with me about a crabb: (z) pag. 39 Doth he not deserve, say you of me, the wood of the crabb, that is angry with the crabb of the wood? I know not what should make such sour stuff so sweet to your mouth, that you are jealous it should come nigh unto mine, that you seem ready to give me the bastinado for only naming the Crabb after you, without adding any syllable of mine own. Well, you see that I was sparing in my censure both of your wit and valour, your Knighthood keeping my pen in awe that he who shall peruse my lines which you traduce as respectless, will find I did not utter one word without due regard of that Honourable Order. I did forbear to thrust at you because you were a Knight, though you came on my pen, still seeking some Minister on whom I might lay the wound of your inexcusable untruths. 10. One thing you cannot brook (which I will not deny I spoke, as I well might without any disgrace to your Knighthood or injury unto truth) that I termed your Cursory lines (so you name your elucubrations, that you say smell of the lamp (a) p. 62. an unlearned Letter. You appeal to (b) p. 10. Parnassus, and would wash away this stain with Helicons water: you take Sanctuary amongst the sacred Sisters of whose familiarity you brag that were it not that infirmity doth suppress the virility of your spirit, you could perhaps readily show as many of their favours, as I can, though I seek and search all the corners of my desk. I will not contend with you about Parnassus, neither do I envy your familiarity with the Poetical Sisters of Apollo his choir, unto whom (though in my childhood I knew them, yet) since I could number thrice five years of my life I have been a stranger, my time hath been spent and my delight settled in more worthy and graver study of Philosophical and Theological verities; want of which in your cursory lines (as you term them) made me call them an unlearned Letter: and your appealing to Parnassus and bragging of the many favours afforded unto you by the Sacred Sisters, cannot prove your said Letter to be learned in such sense as I termed it unlearned. 11. I would be loath to be so full as you seem to be of those waters which flow so fast from your pen, as they overrun your paper, your marginal verses drowning the truth of your text. Sobriety might smile to see the Poetry of the one, snarl at the Prose of the other; though sometimes even when they jar most, a man shall find truth in neither. The first sentence of your Snarl shallbe witness thereof, which may serve as a perspective unto the rest: there you say, that heresy in all ages hath contrived artificial shadows, which your marginal muse gain-sayeth in a Latin verse. Artibus impictas ingeniosa caret, Importing, that witty impiety wanteth art: A manifest untruth as the world knoweth, yet no less notoriously false is your Prose, that the countenance of venerable Antiquity is the artificial colour wherewith Heresy doth paint herself. For that Heresy in former ages still disclaimed from venerable Antiquity, still refused to stand to the Tradition of Ancestors, still varnished her wrincled deformities with fair places of Scripture, as is your Protestant practice, you would not now be to learn, were your knowledge in Ecclesiastical histories equal to your skill in Poetical fables. Thus you fight with your text against your margin, with your margin against your text, with both against the truth, nay sometimes your Muse is so mad that in a Poetical fury, she not only crosseth your text, but also woundeth your honour. Such are the verses you bestow on your Indian weed. (d) pag. 38. foeda Tobacciferi quid vult contagio fumi? Praeter inauditam per tua membra luem. which verses may give a shrewd suspicion that you who have been a great friend thereof, are tainted with that infamous disease. 12. But Sir the Learning with want whereof I charged your Letter, is neither Parnassian, nor Poetical, nor profane, but sacred, holy, divine, which not Apollo but Christ teacheth, water which not Helicon, but Scripture yieldeth, gotten not by light familiarity with sacred sisters, but by diligent & exact reading of Holy Fathers, in whose writings what a stranger you are, this my Letter will sufficiently discover. It will appear that you revile the learned muses of the Christian Church, whom you never read: the doctrines which they most clearly deliver you dare affirm were not taught but by Heathens & Hobgoblius; the interpretations they derive from the fontaine of Scripture you say were fetched from the pit of Hell. These things shallbe made clear in the Chapters that follow: now to dispatch all your toys, before we enter into more serious matter, I will show the vanity of your weak assaults against my Treatise, which you seek to disgrace, that the comparison of your poverty, with my (e) pag. 11. nullity, may purchase you the title of mediocrity. You term my book a (f) pag. 5. little pretty pygmy; yet like one besieging a strong fortress you ride thrice about it, seeking where you may make a breach to enter, battering the lines thereof first with flies, then with fies, finally with lies. 13. First you search how often I have named the fly or spider, (g) pag. 12. noting in your margin that those two creatures one with the other have been fourteen times put into my whole treatise, together charging the same with solecisms, incongruities of speech, jesting at a parenthesis which you call jobbing in my first sentence, that many a good man's dog, say you, hath broken his leg over a less style. I must confess sir I do not bombast my books with your fustian phrases, nor build my style as you do of strange trees cut from foreign forests; that sure I am, none will acknowledge your language to be English, except you get a Parliament to naturalise it. My drift in writing is not to be admired, but understood, which makes me not stick to utter my mind rather in a crabbed than a new created phrase thinking it less harm that a cavilling cur prick his foot, than any learned man break his head. To climb unto my meaning I am more curious that my doctrine be true, than my speech smooth, thinking the book written in a style good enough, when words are so laid in order, & lines drawn in such compass that they keep just proportion with their centre, to wit truth, towards which I did presuppose the hearts of those worthy Gentlemen unto whom I wrote did so mainly incline, that the thorns of my phrases had it been more crabbed than one jobbing parenthesis can make it, would not hold them back from perusing my Treatise. Neither can I say, that therein I have been deceived of my hope. 14. But I have been, you say (h) for want of a good midwife five years in travail with my lisping pygmy: whereas you whelped in few months your snarling puppy: to which I might answer that a hasty bich bringeth forth blind whelps. The seeliest birds are soon flush (i) Sanctius his animal mentisque capacius altae. . Nature's perfectest work in many years arriveth unto mature ripeness; Minerua's, fruitful plant is long a growing, whereas many barren trees spring up a pace. Glauca salix properat, sed multùm tardat oliva. My fortune is not like yours, to have still a good midwife at hand: the smoke of your chimney inviting learned Ministers to your table, who, as you seem to confess, (k) p. 61. lend you their helping-hand in the prompt delivery of your Imps. Wherein you compare yourself to jupiter, who was feign to send for Vulcan & his hatchet, before Pallas could come into the world; without the help of these Vulcan's & their sharp hatchets, that hewed it out of your head, you might perchance have been more years in building your fair Pallas, than I spent on my little Pinnace, though those that know me, can tell, that after I seriously undertook the task, I was not about it so many months as you name years. In business of this nature I desire to make no more haste, then good speed, Sat citò, si sat been. The thing is dispatched soon that is performed well. None are more subject to shameful falls, than such as ride post, as your cursory lines seem to do in the slippery vain of writing. 15. I know the Father's eye is a partial ●udge in the beauty of his own Child, yet you give me good hope that my Creatures will not seem deformed, where learning with indifferency shall pass her censure, seeing your curious and carping sight, which the least fly could not escape, hath not been able to show therein any true fault. Were not canonshot wanting to batter the sides of my Pinnace, the substance of my discourse, your (l) puerilis sane & augusti pectoris reprehensio. Arnob. l. 1. con. gentes childish squibbs would not fly so fast at the sail of my style: you that accuse me of leaden art, could you have found in my answer, leaden sentences to have made bullets against me, you would not have sought to crack my credit with fourteen flies, with solaecismes, & incongruities of speech. Sure I am the most judicious Censurers esteem some few such seeming faults not to be (m) ut facit factem naews, quod dicitur, venustiorem: sic vitia quaedam orationis audiunt figurae & ornamenta. blemishes but rather ornaments in the purest writers, both of the Latin and Grecian language. The style is childish which still feareth the rod, not daring to departed one syllable from the rules of Grammar: neither would you be so solicitous about a Solecism were not the terror of Eton school still fresh in your memory. As in a consort of sweet voices a discord now and then doth make the music more pleasing; so the (n) solaecismi sunt apud politissimos utruisque l●nguae. worthiest writers have left some iobbs pass in their works, which do rather delight then offend a judicious reader. Thus might I defend solaecismes and incongruities of speech, which yet you object without any proof. Truly Sir, these trifling cavils force me to confess, that you had reason to call me Buzzard, (i) pag. 21. for comparing you to a soaring bird of the Eagle-kind, who thus hover over my book to catch flies, that one cannot so soon light one my paper, but you have it strait in your margin. This then is your first assault or battery to my phrase with flies. 16. No less vain is your second assault with fies. For having wrong the neck of the first word in my Treatise backward, & made a fie of an if, you run defying the pious practice of God's Church proved by me, without any reason in the world against them. You cry (o) pag. 11. fie upon my generical and accidental christening of Bells, and relative honour of Images. The first of which practices that it may seem to deserve your squeamish fie, your snarler in the conveyance thereof into your book slavereth it with his false mouth. For where do you find that Bells are christened, either generically or accidentally, in my book, or in any Catholic writer? I say, that the Blessing of Bells hath some generical similitude with the christening of a child, which may be found betwixt things of very different name and nature. A generical christening I did not term it: neither would you infer it, had your nullity of judgement any mediocrity of logic. I brought an example of a Weather, which hath many conveniences with a man, yet is not a man, nor may be so termed. And I marvel that in the first place you would but at the bramble-bush of this sottish slander, where M. Crashaw his Weather stuck by the Horns. A Hoby to give you a domestical example, hath generical convenience with the Bird & Beast, whence metaphors are drawn, to reproach want of wit unto men, yet he may be thought worthy of those metaphors, who should thence infer, that an Hoby is either an accidental Buzzard, or a generical Ass. Nec vitulum tauro, nec equum committis onagro. Indeed I am indebted unto your curious Printer for the last syllable of Razias, which he solemnly calling the world to witness, bestowed one me and my heirs for ever, together with the rich jewel of your latin marginal note. Numquam ego hominem magis Asinum vidi. When we shall here you shift of your gross corruptions of S. Augustine's sayings unto the mispression of the printer, you will give me just occasion to repay the man that sallyble in good and lawful money, with all the revenues and arrearages thereof, even to the last ass. Which now to discharge by your Logic out of generical conveniences enforcing the specifical name, were counterfeit coin, and a sign that such a Logician doth still retain the sense of that syllable to himself, the sound whereof he giveth away to another. Thus the first fie returns on your own falsehood, seeing the phrase of christened Bells did never ring in our Church, nor perchance in the world before, witting or foolish mispression made them jingle at the heels of a Hoby, whence such witless cavils may be thought to proceed, rather than from the head. 16. Secondly you cannot conceive nor your stomach digest my relative honour of Images, yet I do much fear you often practise relative love of the Images of those fair creatures you keep in your Chamber, referring your inward affections unto living objects, whilst your eyes behold senseless Pictures. I wonder any man should be so dull as not to understand that which even children conceive, that honour done to the Images is no injury to the Person, or that a Christian will deny to Christ in his Image, what any honourable parsonage may challenge unto his. You that cry fie of the relative honour of our Saviour in his Cross, how would you have snarled at the (o) Hieron Epist. 170. noble Ladies of the Primitive Church, that did lick with their religious tongues the dust of that thrice venerable relic. Happy was that glorious Matron Paula, that wonder of Sanctity, and miracle of Contempt of the world; highly esteemed by S. Hierome, (p) Epist. 127. Epitaph. Paulae. Prostrata ante Crucé quasi pendentem dominum cerneret adorabat. that when she did use to lie prostrate before the Cross, therein with a lively faith adoring Christ, your cursed cur was not present. He would have distracted her devotions by biting her by the great toe, as (q) Acts and Monum. in the life of Cranmer. Franc-Mason of Consecrat. p. 68 another Protestant dog did the Pope, or at least by yolping at her in an impure language, that she prostrated herself to the Antichristian Beast, stained herself with her own works, went a whoring after her own inventions: in which foul language you snarl at our Catholic (r) In your Epist. to the Collapsed Ladies. Ladies. 17. I hoped that in my answer to M. Crashawes eight wound, that practice was so declared, that none could have mistaken or misliked the same, that should peruse that discourse, yet now I find myself deceived in you: perhaps because I did not exemplify in some object that came within the reach of your Tobacco-pipe. Wherefore now to satisfy your sensuality, tell me I beseech you, what you think of that relative honour, which one (s) I. D. of your fellow Tobaccaean writers did use to practise towards the picture of his Mistress; which he kept in his Chamber, with this prayer unto it, Illumina tenebras m●●s (t) Lighten my darkness dear Lady. , before which he did not omit to do morning and evening devotions, prostrate on the ground? was that prayer made to the dumb Image, and not to his loving Mistress? Did his thoughts adore the dead colours of the picture and not her fresh rosy cheeks which therein he did behold? O glorious cause which by such Epicureans is impugned who worship Bacchus or Cupid in their chambers, yet against us profess themselves grave Cynics, Doggish, and Diogenical writers! They cannot, forsooth, understand the relative honour of Christ his Image, yet before Images of Venus they can direct their humble duty and hearty affection unto Queans, which is nothing else but their relative honour of foul pictures. Certainly they could never misconstrue or mislike the pious directing of divine honour to Christ before his sacred Image, were not their wits as dull in divine matters, as they are sharp in sensual objects, were they not a kin to the creature of Dunne colour, or to that monster whose head is as blockish as his body swinish (u) Cui caput est Asini, cetera membra Suis. . If this discourse seem to you sharp, remember the cause you have given, who run railing at ancient doctrines, and pious practices of the Church, declared in my Treatise, without bringing any syllable of new proof against them. 18. In this squeamish vain you cast a Fie upon my saying, that by Metaphor God may be said to have divided his Kingdom with the Virgin. What if I had said, God had given her his whole Kingdom (x) Ego dispono vobis regnum sicut disposuit mihi Pater. Luc. 23. v. 9 , his Throne, (z) Vincenti dabo sedere in throno meo Apoc. 2.27. and Sceptre, (a) Reget gentes in virga ferrea ibid. 27. that Christ in person did wait on her, sitting at the table of glory? (b) Faciet illos discumbere & tranfiens ministrabit illis. Luc. 22. v. 37. How would your Cur have been mad at these metaphors, and have broken his teeth against these stones, which yet 〈…〉 of divine Scripture, 〈…〉 ●ith God doth use to exagger 〈…〉 of meaner Saints than his Bles●● 〈…〉 ●●ink that you have brought me to a 〈…〉 force me to confess that our Church-hy●● 〈◊〉 ●●re figurative poems (c) pag. 15. , & you fear out of your love towards me, that my fools coat will be well clawed by my Superiors: but I much fear, that you make Ministers proud in wearing their livery, who laugh I am sure in their sleeve at the follies you utter in their defence, though perchance they speak you fair to your face. For are not the Psalms of David the chiefest hymns of God his Church? and are not those Poëmes full of figurative speeches much more than that ancient Hymn of Sedulius you glance at? yet what prayers more excellent, more devout than those? Or more forcible to raise a man's Spirits from Earth, to settle his affections on Heaven, to move him to power out his heart, at his eyes, like water in the sight of God? Yea Rhetorical figures, Poëticall flowers wherewith that garden of the soul is stored, together with the grace of God, effectually concur to bring forth those comfortable effects? why then may not a Theological invocation be uttered in a figurative speech? Why should you think (d) pag. 12. the exclamation of Esay was not a religious prayer to God, though by a Rhetorical figure seemingly directed to the clouds? It is lost labour I preceiue to beat flies from Honey (e) Quid prodest muscas op● rofis pellere flagris? , they will be drowned sooner therein then driven away. Your Church feedeth upon falsehood, the bread of untruth is sweet to her taste; let us beat flies, and lies fro● 〈…〉 so loud clapps, the noy●● 〈…〉 but they swarm thither ag●● 〈…〉 M. Crashaws' untruths, that 〈…〉 divide God's Kingdom with the 〈…〉 pray unto Images, though you use a 〈…〉 ●●ch seemeth to you finer, because it is stra●●●●●alling them superstitious obsecrations directed to a wooden Cross. 19 With as little care of truth you charge me to defend (f) pag. 14. lying stories painted in our Chapels. The stories you mean I proved were true (g) In the preface p. 29. naming the places where, and the time when, those cruelties were executed on Catholic professors. I added, that such false devices and pictures had they been used, might be no less colourably excused than john Fox his lying Pageants, wherewith he painteth his fabulous martyrologue to delude fools, of whom living he was Father. Is this an honourable defence of devising painters to rank them in the same predicament with your lying Martyr-maker. 20. More impudent is your other charge (h) p. 14 that when we are charged with an Idolatorus appeal from God to the Virgin, and the like absurdities, I shift them off to the Poets pen. For the Author on whom M. Crashaw did father that blasphemy was no Poet, but a Preacher. Neither did I shift it of to his pen, but sent it back to the head from whence it first sprang, to wit your poetical preachers brain. I showed (I) Ouertrhrow. p. 2. c. 1. p. 164. 165. that with incredible impudence he corrupted the ●ext, put this whole sentence into the Author, Imò & à Deo: one may appeal even from God himself, to make him sound out that blasphemy, to which you have 〈…〉 ●●uly you add new untruths 〈…〉 ●ere that slander, but do 〈…〉 ●●en. Did not that Bachelors 〈…〉 I that the very words by him 〈…〉 in all copies both new and old? 〈…〉 ●ontest against him they were found in neither: If I did him wrong why do you not show it? If I said truth, may you not be thought (to use your own metaphor, (k) p. 74. seeing you snarl at mine) to have customarily crept on your face, yea to have Corns on your forehead, which is so hard that you cry fie upon doctrines you cannot impugn, and repeat clearly-confuted slanders without new proof? 21. The defile mine own nest, reviling my Country, for which you cry (l) pag. 12. fie upon me, is an impudent slander; my book by you cited for witness, proclaimeth against it; yet seeing I may not without your offence, lay it on some lying Minister rather than give a Knight the lie, I will shift it of to your Poet's pen, giving your Reader warning when he readeth your books to be mindful of the verse, Admiranda canunt, sed non credenda poetae. The truth whereon you raise the fable, is, that out of a careful respect of my Country's honour, I did (m) Preface p. 36. severely tax the unrestrained liberty of some Ministers pens, who in hatred of Catholic religion use to utter such open untruths, as might derive an infamy upon our Nation, & put Crete in danger to lose her infamous surname. Among which I did reckon M. Crashawes' slander, that the gunpowder treason was hatched at Rome by Pope Clement 8. upon the death 〈…〉 elizabeth: were all English writers as 〈…〉 ●●elour, might not our Isle (think 〈…〉 Crete? 22. I d●● 〈…〉 ●●e same lying Lecturer to keep within ●he 〈…〉, (n) preface p. 36. if not of his teeth, yet at the least of our seas, 〈◊〉 Fowl language wherewith he doth use to revile other Nations, not blushing to avouch that Italians (some privy Protestants excepted) were Atheists or fools, which seemed to my ears so rude and uncivil a censure, that I did grieve his Sermon was extant in Latin, that, that noble and religious Nation should see the grossness of an English Minister, fearing they might impute it to the northern climate, accounting him, Veruecum in patria, Crassoque sub aere natum. Did not fumes of anger unjustly conceived against me dim the light of your reason, I could be content to make you judge in this cause, whether they do rather defile their own nests, that utter reproachful falsehoods which deserve the hatred of all civil Nations, than I, who only sought for a restraint of such unruly pens. 23. Here endeth the peal of your fies. Now remaineth your last battery of my book with Lies, which you let fly almost at every story I report. You cannot believe (o) pag. 16. that a gentleman of Honour, from my Lord De la Wares own mouth brought me such news as England knows to be true, that he could not get out of your Universities more than one Minister to go the evangelical voyage of Virginia. You seem ready to fight (p) ibid. for the Minister that eat up the pease-pottage, whilst his fellows fought with the Sau●●●●●wet if you will Wade into that matter, you 〈…〉 London the author of my report to 〈…〉 protestant we have no reason to thi● 〈…〉 Minister of his own religion. You 〈…〉 of (q) p. 27. the roaring rake-hill of Cambrige, 〈…〉 your preacher esteemed as an Angel, crying Crashaw, Crashaw, go to Geneva, though the voice was so loud, as the whole University did ring of his folly. 24. You that wonder I should say, that a counsellor did refuse (r) pa. 15. to patronize your Lecturers Sermon, you cannot deny but the lower house of Parliament whereof yourself were one, did discard his jesuits Gospel. Neither durst you raise against me a sleeping witness the late Earl of Salisbury, but that you know he now is in case that he cannot speak. That Counsellor (Sir Edward) was more politic than you may be presumed to be: he would look before he leapt into such a dunghill of untruths, as I proved that Sermon was. You in your credulous vanity, rashly cast yourself into that labyrinth of lies, commending the same as a thing (s) Lett. to M. T. H. pag. 55. unanswerable: but now ashamed of your folly, you will take no notice thereof. Your dull capacity you writ (t) Countersnarle pag. 25. cannot conceive what I mean to say, that you flutter in a web of weak slanders. You can tell how oft I do repeat spider and cobweb, where I do clearly declare that M. Crashaw was the spider, his Sermon a web of slanders, wherein you did flutter; which truly expounded was no reproach, but rather a praise of your ingenuous disposition, that did easily believe being void of fraud yourself (as I then thought you were) the great and deep protestations of that deluding Preacher 〈◊〉 I fear you are sick of the disease, which 〈…〉 (u) pag. 52. Mulier nihil scit nisi quod ipsa cupit. womankind with, to understand no 〈…〉 please, as now you are pleased to take no 〈…〉 singular commendations of that Sermon. 25. Then you name the feature of that daughter of Babel, the twenty particulars, wherein he accused us to degenerate from Antiquity, An. 1607. 1608. 13. of Februar. the year of our Lord, the day of the month it was preached and printed, that we may think you Godfather to the Child. Whereas now finding by the perusal of my Treatise that she hath neither oil in her lamp, nor wit in her head, although she knock at your door for help, you cast her off with, I know you not, M. T. D. as a foolish Virgin. Let the Courtier your friend whom you describe (x) pag. 16. as having no more wit than yourself, make you smile with his frowns & fond looks, yet I do not doubt but that the Printer of that Sermon will aver as much as I wrote, that when that Sermon flew abroad under the aforesaid Counsellors name, the same was stayed till the Epistle dedicatory was altered. 26. You would feign also sting me (z) pa. 17. with an imputation to be a slanderer of Queen Elizabeth, that I take upon me to determine, with what consorts her glorious Ghost is accompanied, laying (say you) a heavy censure on the blessed soul of so worthy a Saint: What Consortes did I give her? Were they nightghosts? Why do you not name them? Was the company appointed her by me any other than her princely Father (a) Ouerthr. pag. 104. ? Why should his company seem dishonourable, or a blemish, and heavy censure to that Saint? Do you fear he may marry with his daughter in that world, 〈…〉 ●●ported he did in this? Or do you glance 〈…〉 doubtfulness of her blood, that perchance no●●he King, but some other put to death with her mother, was indeed her true Father? Durst you have cast such snarling surmises whilst she lived? Or in time of his ragine have sent him to Hell, to canonize his daughter? for in Hell he must needs be, if he be not in Heaven with her, seeing you acknowledge no third place. But I perceive your malicious meaning. You know many gentlemen still affect the memory of that Princess: you would put a jealousy into their heads, as if my Treatise had married her Ghost to some Hobgoblin in Hell. No, she shall not receive her doom by my pen, before I hear it pronounced by the supreme judges mouth. I could not say she enjoyed the company of her Catholic Ancestors, yet did I not deny it. Though she seemed to die in a contrary faith to theirs, yet will I not dive into God's unsearchable secrets. 27. You call her a worthy Saint of the Gospel, which should I express in a Catholic phrase, In his sermon at the Court on the 5. of November. would seem a hard censure. I am not angry that Doctor King sing of her to them that sought her in Hell, what the Angles said of Christ to the woman that sought him in the Grave, Surrexit, non est hic, she is risen, she is not here: and though I could object, if she were never in Hell, how rose she from thence? If she were once in Hell, how got she out? Yet I will be content that your new Orpheus be thought able to have wrought such a wonder and fetch her out of Hell with his Fiddle. Thus you may see, that my heavie-heeled learning (so you phrase it) with 〈◊〉 weight of truth and reason crusheth the serpent 〈◊〉 head of your snarling malice against it. Though you say, without proof, that my book hath (c) p. 68 69. lame and gouty arguments, neither whole head, good foot, nor sound heart, yet if I could be persuaded, that any great force either of wit, judgement, or true learning were in you, I might think the same more invulnerable than Achilles, seeing your forked shafts, discharged out of so strong a desire to disgrace me, are not able to pierce so much as into the heel thereof. 28. But I am not so fond as to measure the strength of my Treatise, by the weakness of your impugnations, nor to think my Pigmy invincible, though it have put a craking Crane to flight. Sure I am the truth I defend, is (d) Me in mea causa defiaente atque prostraeto, victrix erit causa, cui seruio. Aug. count lit. Petil. c. 1. Gould, howsoever the learning may be Lead, wherewith I defend it. No worldly respect either of honour or profit won me to undergo these combatts: neither do I regard the private wounds, wherewith you seek to disgrace my person, so the shield of faith and doctrine wherewith I defend my ghostly Country, the Church of Christ be safe and sound. Were the shadow of human glory the mark I aim at in writing, I would not let my name be buried in two letters in the frontispiece of these books, wherein you imagine I dream to eternize my memory. I should not match myself with contemptible adversaries by whose overthrow, profit, & that eternal, may accrue unto them, small praise redound to myself, by the conquest of scolding and feminine writers (e) Nullum aut memorabile nomen, Foeminea in paena est. . 29. That the Ladies liberal purse-promises hired me to write, is so base a surmise, and doth so smell of the trencher, that if I may without your displeasure, I will rather think it the suggestion of some hungry minister or mercenary Lecturer, than the conceit of a Knight. If I find no greater stop in my race to heaven, than the gathering up of goulden-apples, I shall not need much to fear the losing of the goal. I am sure, if you know me well, you would be loath the money you lately made of your woods, should have no more watchful custody than my thoughts would afford even unto greater sums, which education hath made over proud to stoop to such base cares. Many that have more conversed with me, than you have done, will think some of your Ministers more skilful in taking other men's purses, than I am in keeping my own. I am content with the inexhaust treasure of his Providence, who feedeth the Birds of the air, and clotheth the Lilies of the field, which doth assure me I shall not want, when perhaps your (f) pag. 65. competent patrimony may be wasted. 30. The Lady you glance at, as giving me first encouragement (g) p. 22. to write, I never saw her, nor received message from her, nor was a penny richer by her, whilst she lived, or poorer by her death, who died in the Catholic faith, as I expected, as I have heard a Knight, though Protestant yet of better credit than yourself, that was present with her not many hours before her death, avouch; though your Snarling Cerberus seemeth to bark at her ghost, as if without Purgatory it had gone to your Protestant heaven. But the short is, your conscience is so tender, as you blot out your own conjectures, both against the quick and dead, without any care of truth, or fear of sin. THE SECOND CHAPTER. THAT THE BOOKS OF THE MACCABEES, WHEREIN Is taught our Catholic doctrine, concerning Purgatory, is Canonical Scripture; against the Falsehood both of the Letter, and Countersnarle. NOw having stopped the mouth of your railing Cerberus, I may the more boldly survey your Hell, or Letter against Purgatory, to fear me from the discovery of the folly and falsehood, whereof your Countersnarle was written. You brag (a) pag. 27. that amongst all you wrote in an hundredth and fourteen pages, I have only a spite at one leaf, which lies in the heart of the letter; Lies in the heart. Against what should truth & the friend of truth bear greater hatred? specially those lies being gross and inexcusable corruptions of the most learned of the ancient Fathers, concerning a point of highest importance, to wit, the Canonical Authority of the book of Maccabees, where Purgatory and other points of catholic doctrine, which you peremptorily deny, are clearly proved? If lying killeth the soul (as the holy-ghost saith) (b) Sap. 1. Os quod mentitur occidit animam. your leaves that have lies in their heart, what are they but a dead letter? 2. Wherefore I will begin the examination of your letter with that leaf you term the heart thereof. Which I proved in my Treatise most false and rotten, not containing so much as one true line, whereof I wrote in this sort: (c) Overthrow. p. 133. And here by occasion of S. Augustine, and the book of Maccabees, I must give M. Crashaw warning, that in proof of his assertion, he bring not such testimonies as are the three Sir Edward Hoby allegeth out of S. Augustine, to prove that he rejected the Maccabees, ignorantly and impudently corrupted, not by Sir Edward himself (I cannot think so dishonourably of men of his calling) but by his Trencher-school-maister, or some mercenary lecturer, perchance even by M. Crashaw himself, who is great in the books of this credulous Knight, whom they make fly hoodwinkd to catch flies: which if I pull off, that he may see, how they abuse him, I hope he will take it in good part. 3. These were my words then: which show a double falsehood of your Snarler, first it is false, that I absolutely accused M. Crashaw, as the Author of those corruptions which yet you avouch, (d) pag. 56. instead of perhaps by M. Crashaw, making me say, yea by M. Crashaw himself: for though I did as I might specially suspect him whose desire to deceive was well known unto me, yet I neither did, nor durst so peremptorily affirm, knowing that many others besides him, may use that coolening art. Secondly you say, that I termed you notorious falsificatour (e) pag. 32. , which was far from my thoughts, and further from my pen. wherewith I did fence your head from that blow. The truth is, your unsavoury Letter is so sweet to your tast●, distempered with selfe-conceipt, that out of fear some ministers should lurch you, you greedily put every syllable thereof into your own mouth, though it be dressed in the sour sauce of manifest falsehood: rather will you be thought a false corrupter of so grave a Father, than not the true father of that false brat. Had it been any discredit to have confessed those quotations were by some minister suggested unto you. Your valiant Writer and Deane D. Morton, was he not driven by his adversary to acknowledge, that he had taken some corrupted testimonies of our Authors, Vide his paramble to a further Encounter. upon the credit of Io. Stock, or R. C? Why should that, taking authorities in gross, be thought a blemish in a Knight, which was esteemed tolerable, yea laudable in a Doctor? Or why should you snarl at me, for devising in your defence, such an honourable excuse, that had you stood unto it, you might both have laid your falsehoods upon another (as that Doctor did) and yet have been ranked as he is, amongst your Protestant's famous authors, the mark your ambitious pen aimed at. 4. Let it be whose it please, a Ministers, or a Minstrels Child, in the defence thereof you utter so many new fooleries and falsehoods, that I make no doubt, but the Reader of this my letter (if those corruptions were yours) will confess, that you have greater strength of malice to beget falsehood, than store of wit to maintain it. You say, (f) p. 27. that like a Spider-catcher, I travaise my ground with a goodly flourish, as if I meant with the weak Goddesses to bind jupiter: but if I bring not some Briareus to assist me, it will not be long, before I be out of breath. This is so mystily spoken, as I understand it not. I dare not say it is an high mystery, or a soaring Bird, lest you flout me, with well flown Buzzard (g) p. 21. . If by jupiter you mean yourself, and by weak Goddesses, the corruptions of S. Augustine I laid to your charge, the examinations of your excuses will show, that you stick so fast in those briars, that neither Briareus with an hundred hands can draw, nor all your Vulcan's with their hatches cut you out. 5. Let us come to the particulars: the first testimony which Ministers make the Knight bring to prove the Maccabees not to be Canonical, is (said I (a) Overthrow pag 233. ) out of the book de Mirabilibus sacrae Scripturae, which he, by their direction, citeth as S. Augustine's, though all learned men, by uniform consent discard it from that number, as a book of no account: which Censure was made of this book many hundredth years before Sir Edward was borne, (b) S. Tho. ●. p. q. 45. ●. 3. ad 2. or his Church either, whose antiquity he doth say truly the Ladies are not able to conceive, though they may easily conceive her novelty, seeing some Ladies may yet live that are elder than his Church, and many are yet not very old, whose parents were some years before Luther her first Father. But as for that pretended book of S. Augustine, he that hath perused the same, and can think it to be worthy either of the wit or learning, or to savour of the style of that learned Father, he hath I dare say more skill of trenchers then of Authors, specially seeing the Author himself in the fourth Chapter of his second book, doth say in express terms, that he wrote the said book in the year of our Lord 627. almost 200. years after that S. Augustine was dead. And was not Sir Edward think you here bobbed by the Bachelor or some Lecturer? 6. This was my charge: to which you answer with great admiration saying, Would any (c) pag 28. man believe that I should father that book de mirabilibus sacrae scripturae upon Augustine? As who should say it is an incredible thing; & mark the force of your sentence, consisting in the I: which, did not overweening blind, would perceive his own folly: for are you indeed so singularly learned, that you can with a wet finger find out all the true works of this Father? If you be so cunning, is also this your own skill so notorious to mankind, that it may seem incredible to any man, that you should cite any book under his name, which is not his? Rabshacheh, say you, auer's that: where, to my ear, your pen meeteth with such a job, as I fear your good dog hath broken his leg: Rabshacheh auer's that. Surely I was much to blame to accuse so learned a Knight of such incredible mistaking. Varius ait, say you, in the margin, Scaurus negat, you deny it, a man forsooth of such credit as your bare word must be taken against the proofs of such a Varius as myself. But let us compare the sayings of your Letter & Countersnarle together, then will it appear, who is Varius, who doth vary from, and contradict himself, you or I 7. Your letter to prove that the Maccabees were Canonical in S. Augustine's judgement, saith in this sort. (d) p. 60. It is not our surmise that S. Augustine seemeth to signify so much, who elsewhere (to wit in the book de mirabilibus Sacrae Scripturae) doth plainly determinately say, that they are not of the divine Canon. Thus did your Letter then sing, resolutely fathering as your words witness that book on S. Augustine. Now perceiving by my accusation, that to be gross ignorance, your Snarler barketh in another tune (e) gag. 29. . Finding, say you, that book in their copies ranked with those other books, that go under the title of S. Augustine, loath to trouble the margin with any circumlocution, I only noted where it might be found: mark I pray you that only, which is one of the things that are most disgraceful in a Knight: did you only note in the margin where that book and sentence might be found, and not also aver in your text, that it was plainly and determinately S. Augustine's saying? Who doth not see, that your two books snarl at ech-other, that you play Scaurus in the one, and Rabshacheh in the other, peremptorily denying in your Snarl, what you did constantly affirm in your letter? This is to be Varius indeed, and truly Rabshacheh, which signifieth in Hebrew, multùm Ebrius, a man much given to drink, which title, whether it rather agree to me, then to yourself, I am content any indifferent man be judge, that knoweth us both. 8. And not only is your Snarler forced to eat up the words you spoke in your Letter, but you do add further a new untruth, that you omitted to note the ambiguity of the author of that book, out of loathness to trouble your margin with any circumlocution: which idle excuse you likewise repeat in your answer to the third falsification, (f) p. 42. that you joined two places of S. Augustine in one, forbearing to note the place, where either might be found, not to be tedious forsooth to the reader with long quotations. A man that hath cast his eye though but once on your book, may perceive the vanity of this your figleaf, wherewith you would hide this your falsehood. For the margin to whose purity you would seem to bear respect, you fear not to defile with hebrew Characters, with vulgar sentences both Greek and French, with trivial verses out of Cato and such childish authors, with ridiculous phrases, which serve only to waste ink and blur paper. If you name me, your margin must also speak Numquam ego hominem magis asinum vidi (g) p. 27. . If you see my pinnace a far off, nec operam, nec oleum sapit (h) pag. 59 . You swear upon your life, I have been a notorious truant in my days, (i) pag. 58. and strait a verse redounds on your book side, sic vos non vobis. Your inkhorn hath no sooner devised a new erynnical word to bestow on a libel, but Virgil versifieth upon it (k) p. 67. : Quò tristis Erynnis, Quò fremitus vocat? You accuse me with solecisms, referring me to your latin Notation, (l) pag. 11. Si ego indignus hac contumelia, tu tamen indignus qui faceres, which is so heavy and leaden a load, to be laid upon solecisms, which I never objected to you, that the same had reason to cry O. with which letter you mark them, 9 Your own mediocrity is named in your text, the Echo thereof soundeth in the Margin to your praise, Mediocria firma, (m) p. 11. you say, that it is art enough for you, to please yourself, whom you note with a T. in the forehead, as though you were an humble penitent, yet in the Margin you versify in this sort (n) pag. 39 : Quem penes arbitrium est, & ius & forma loquendi. Which proud verse signifies, that by T. you mean Throne, where you mean to sit as M. Controuller. I omit many other of your impertinent and ridiculous Annotations; these few may suffice to show, that you never leave your margin white, without notes, but when your head is blank without matter. Whence it is clear, that the cause why you did not censure the book De Mirabilibus, as the supposed issue of S. Augustine, was not your loathness to trouble your Margin with circumlocutions, but either ignorance that indeed you thought that book was his, which I think probable; or else fraud, which made you utter, what you knew was false, to deceive your Reader; which imputation you would have laid upon you rather than ignorance. 10. But if one demand of you, why you did cite that book for S. Augustine's, saying, that it was his, against your conscience and knowledge, as you now confess? You answer in this manner: (o) p. 29, As near as I can remember (say you) I thus argued with myself, If they grant that S. Augustine's pen did discard those books, the matter willbe soon at an end; if they deny that book to be his, then how will they excuse their Church, that hath played many such lewd pranks? Or how will they answer antiquity, which distinguished these books? Thus you argued with yourself, which doth argue, that your false Ministers teach you to use reservations and equivocations in your writings, about matters of religion, to deceive your lesse-wary Readers. You said in your Letter then, that the book de mirabilibus was determinately S. Augustine's, which I proved apparently to be false. Now you confess that it is indeed false, yea that you knew it was false, even when you wrote it, but you had forsooth a reserved discourse that might make the same true, to wit, that, that book de mirabilibus is S. Austin's, or else the Church of Rome hath played many false tricks, or else how will they answer Antiquity? Is not this wicked & fraudulent proceeding? 11. To make the same dealing more apparent and sensible to you, I will use an example that may touch you near. Suppose I should write, that a Protestant Knight in England hath children by a Black-more, namely a Girl, in the margin citing Sir Edw. Hoby, that you prove it to be a lewd slander, accusing me of injurious falsehood against you. My answer is like to yours, Will any man think I fathered those children on Sir Edward Hoby indeed, not knowing to whose charge I might lay them, loath to trouble my margin with circumlocutions, I noting the house, where such a mother is found? I knew Sir Edward was not the Father of those brats, but I thus argued with myself, If he grant those children to be his, the matter is at an end: if he deny them, then how will he answer his Protestant brethren, that accuse him of such lewd pranks? Were this proceeding, Sir Edward, justifiable, to utter slanderous untruths, which I know are false, excusing them by mental and reserved discourses? I am sure, you would detest this manner of dealing in me against yourself, which yet you approve in yourself against the Church of Rome. 12. Moreover I add, that your mental reservation which you now utter, is also false, to wit, that the book de mirabilibus, in our copies is placed in equal rank with those other that go under the name of S. Augustine; and that it is still continued by us, amongst his golden works, which you term a lewd prank, and say, that none can read any Fathers in our Editions, but he is in danger to catch a snake for an eel, except he read Thomas Aquinas before. Vidi Opera August. à Theolog. Lovaniens. edita, ann. 1571. ex officina Plantini●na. This you speak, which is as gross an untruth as the former. For in out latter Editions, this book is not ranked amongst the whole books of S. Augustine, but in an Appendix after them, in a different letter, with title of Anonymi cuiusdam: the Treatise of a nameless Author. In the elder Editions these books go printed amongst his in the same letter, but with this Censure in the beginning and head thereof, nec stilo nec ingenio Augustinum sapit; This Treatise doth neither savour of the conceit, nor style of S. Augustine. Can the Church of Rome show greater sincerity than this? 13. Do you in your own Bible rank the Apochriphall books (as you esteem them) Tobias, judith, Maccabees, with those of the divine Scripture cheek by jowl (to use your own phrase) both in elder and newest Editions of your Bible? Do not Canonical Scriptures excel the Apochriphall, more than S. Augustine doth any other Father, that lived after him? Why should you term it a lewd prank, to couple together the second in the same volume which goeth for Augustine's, if it be a holy practice in your Church, to join together the first in your Bible, that goeth under the name of God's book? 14. Now in the custody of these works of Antiquity, the Church of Rome hath been so Religious, that you challenge those Charters for your doctrine, which you cannot deny, but have been for 1000 years at least in her only keeping. If the books of the Ancient Fathers, should be Pupils or Wards of your Church but for one age, that you might uncontrolledly cut down, what trees please you not in their grounds, we might afterwards have as great difficulty, to find a book or sentence in their writings (which we now plentifully allege) for our doctrines, pag. 40. as I should have to find you Indian vapour, if that be true (as you say) that it is long since flown out of my sight: yea which doth clearly justify the Roman Churches sincerity, the bastardly boughs, as you term them, more than any true branches of S. Augustine, make for your doctrine and now doth the book de mirabilibus for your Hebrew Canon, which is a manifest ●●signe, that these books were not fradulently by her joined with that Fathers, to give credit unto them, because they favour her cause, as you imagine. 15. To conclude you are forced to grant as much as I desired, to wit, that the book de mirabilibus is not S. Augustine's, as you cited it, but that it is altogether impertinent to prove your intent, that the Maccabees are not Canonical in his judgement. You (p) pag. 31. brag that you have quit your hands of the first falsehood; which is so true, that whereas I accused you of ignorance and not of falsehood, not to seem to have written in ignorance, you have uttered four falsehoods. First that you did not cite the sentence out of the book de mirabilibus for S. Augustine's; the contrary whereof is extant under your own hand in your letter, which you wish might be engraven in marble (q) p. 62. . The second that you did not note the Author of that book was doubtful, out of respect to your margin, fearing to trouble the same with a learned annotation, which you load every where with all manner of impertinent stuff. Thirdly, you use mental reservations in your writings, putting that which you know was false into your paper, keeping that which you did imagine might make the same true in your thoughts. Finally you slander the Church of Rome, for lewd pranks, about the Father's volumes, wherein I have proved her practice to be most sincere: so that if poor men's purses be never more quit of money, than your pen is now of falsehood, when they are poorest they will not lack a groat: yet I think my second accusation of your falsehood will cleave faster to your fingers, that to clear yourself, you will be forced to rub them rudlye on your Printers head. 16. The second place you brought out of S. Augustine against the book of Maccabees, was a sentence in his book against the Epistle to Gaudentius, l. 2. c. 51. in these very words. Machabaeorum Scriptura recepta est ab Ecclesia non inutiliter, si sobrie legatur, vel audiatur, maximè propter ipsos Martyres Machabaeos; Sed ob hanc causam in Canone morum, non fidei censeri posset: Signifying (said you) that there must be great sobriety used in hearing and reading of those books, and that they are in the Canon of Manners, and not of faith. My accusation was that your minister had added the last sentence, containing the substance of the matter, unto S. Augustine, Sed ob hanc causam in Canone morum, non fidei censeri posset. But for this cause that book may be put in the Canon of manners not of faith: Will Sir Edward (said I) suffer himself to be thus bobbed & his credit blown up? will he not set such a frown on his trencher-ministers, as may make them vanish out of sight? Can any stain to his Knighthood be greater, then to be thought a notorious falsifier of so great and learned a Father, even in print? Thus I wrote in my Treatise, which you term lame and gouty: let us see how nimble-footed you are in your excuse. 17. This last clause, say you, I wonder how it should pass my sight, in the review: for perusing my first draft I find go, written short in another Letter, to distinguish my inference, from Augustine's proof. It seemeth either my Manuaries haste, or the Printers mispression hath turned go, into said, as if the same had been contiuned: which former error made them omit (consequently) in the English redditio. Thus you writ confessing as much as I accused you of, to wit, that the last clause was not S. Augustine's, but the Ministers or your own. Now that there was a short Go in your first draft, seems not very probable, but rather that your Vulcan's have hammered it out of your head to excuse your falsehood. First, what likeness is there betwixt go and sed, that your Manuarie, or Printer should take the one for the other? what probability, that he should so consequently corrupt the text, as to leave out consequently upon the former error? Secondly why should you make your inference in Latin writing in English? What English Author doth use that idle manner of writing but yourself? neither do you use it yourself but only in this place, which maketh it more than probable, that in truth you thought not thereof. But now you say you used it, having no better cloak than this short go to cover so notorious a fraud. Thirdly for what purpose, doth this juggling together of your sentences, both in Latin and English with S. Augustine's serve, but only that the simple Reader may not distinguish the grayhound from the hare? the dove from the kite? Finally may not a man print whole sentences of his own as S. Augustine's or any other Fathers, and being accused of falsehood have the like excuse to yours at his finger's ends, that in the draft there was a go, which the Printer let go. 18. But you had, you say (r) pag. 33. S. Hieromes authority for that inference, though you quoted him not, who saith (s) Hier. praefat. in l. Salom. that the Church doth not receive the book of Maccabees, adding: legate ad aedificationem plebis, non ad authoritatem dogmatum Ecclesiasticorum confirmandam, which words, say you, amount to no less sum, then that those books are in Canone morum non fidei censendi. I answer first, this is nothing to the purpose, to prove S. Augustine did reject them, who might be contrary to S. Hierome in this point, not being then defined by any general Council, though S. Hierome may seem to speak according to the opinion of the Hebrews as he useth to do (t) Vide prafat. in Daniel. & Apol. adverse. Ruffin. , not in his own. Secondly I say, that those words of S. Hierome, come short of your sum, and that neither in S. Hierome, nor any Ancient Father, can be found, your Protestant distinction of the Canon of Mamners and Canon of Faith. Every book that may be read for edification in the Church, may not be termed a Canon or Rule of Manners, as many books may edify Faith which do not rule it; so some Authors may edify the Church in good life, though their works be not the rule of manners. A rule must be right, so that a thing conformable to it cannot be crooked. As what soever is agreeable to the Rule of Faith, is infallibly true, so what is just with the Rule of Manners is certainly good. But actions according to these books we speak of, you grant may be wicked, how then can they be the Canon and Rule of Manners? To kill himself for example is a thing unlawful, yet it is conformable to those actions, that you say are praised in the Maccabees, which books you accept as a Rule of Manners. If a book, that alloweth some things against good Manners, may be with a little Caution (as you say (v) pa. 37. ) the Canon of virtuous life, I see not why a book teaching false doctrine in some points, may not with like caution be the Canon of Faith? you see that your distinction neither grounded upon reason, nor Fathers, nor Scriptures, is justly a beam in my eye. Neither doth Caietan whom you cite, jump altogether with your conceit, and though he did, his sayings are not Oracles with us. 19 The third testimony you alleged out of S. Augustine against the Maccabees was this sentence. (x) Aug. de civit l. 1. c. 20. In the holy Canonical Books there is no divine precept or permission to be found, that we may, either to gain immortality, or to escape any peril or mischief, make away with ourselves, ut Razis seipsum occidens laudatur, as Razis did kill himself, and is therefore commended in the book of Maccabees. This last clause, said I (z) pag. 135. 136. wherein the force of the testimony consisteth is added, both in latin and in English to S. Augustine's words, to make him seem an enemy of the books of the Maccabees. But indeed that Father doth not say, that Razias (for that is his name, and not Razis) was praised for killing himself, but denies it expressly, l. 2. cont. Epist. Gaud. c. 31. saying, that the Scripture did report, what had been done, not praise his death, as a thing that should have been done. Can any corruption, said I be greater than this? I would wish Sir Edward for his creditts' sake, to lay the matter of his pamphlet on the Minister that was the true Father thereof, only challenging to himself the style and phrase, which may well beseem a Knight, and is to rich & golden to clothe the foul brat of a Ministers brain. 20 Thus I wrote: in answer whereof, first you say, I show myself a kind adversary, by quoting the place of S. Augustine in my margin, and adding the words which were wanting in your quotation, & the latin sentence, for want thereof lame without sense. I will not requite him, say you, with the Proverb, That proffered service merits small thanks, but in am of his labour, I will more fully advertise him of my scope. My purpose was from a ground out of S. Augustine, to prove, that the book of Maccabees is not Canonical: my Mayor is S. Augustine's, as well known as the beggar knows his dish, that in holy Scripture, there is no precept or permission, to make away with ourselves, but Razias mentioned in the Maccabees is commended for a fact of this kind, Ergo, those books are not Canonical. This syllogism I had a desire to contract. Thanks be to God. My treatise hath wrought a miracle, making your contracted syllogism stretch out his sinews, and walk on both legs. Now your bird spreads abroad her wings which before were so couched under S. Augustine, that a man might have sworn on your Book, that the whole argument both Mayor and Minor had been his. I dare say Aristotle himself, with whom, you say, you are well acquainted, (a) pag. 10. would not have perceived a syllogism in your quotation, but have thought one particle thereof as well as the other S. Austin's. 21. But have not your Ministers devised sun excuse or other of this your cunning contracting of syllogisms to deceive the simple? yes a very goodly one, which you utter in thes words: Artis est artem dissimulare, It is a point of art to dissemble art (b) p. 42. . He is a simple painter that is driven to write Goose or Woodcock overhead, that people may know what feature he hath drawn underneath Neither do Rhetoricians use to distinguish their propositions by name, leaving work for the Logical Analysis, to set every part in their proper place. Thus you. Lord what tricks Devils and their fowlers have to hide their art? What mists do they cast on their nets to catch Woodcocks? How do they imp their sorry feathers into the Fathers-Eagle wings? Sell their own green goslings for white and hoary swans? when their falsehood is discovered they tell us very gravely, that they must not write over head Goose or Woodcock, that people may know the feature they have drawn underneath. And they have reason. For should people perceive the featour of their writings, soon would a Christian stomach loathe them. 22. Plain dealing, Sir Edward, might best have suited with your pen, who profess yourself the Lady's Writer, (c) pag. 65. hoping that the report of the worthiness of the Author might happily induce those rare creatures to the reading of your lines. But how can they that have not studied Logic, make a Logical Resolution of your Rhetorical syllogisms? How shall they that have not read, nor perchanee can read S. Augustine, know which words are yours, which his, setting every thing in his proper place, which a learned man may easily do by placing the Mayor, that Scripture doth never command nor commend killing once self, an Eagle & worthy saying in S. Augustine's works, where indeed it is found but the minor that Razias is praised in the Maccabees for killing himself, (d) l. 1. de Civitat. c. 20. a Goose or Woodcoke in your brain, whence and not out of this Father's book it came into your Letter. 23. Another excuse you have which you rather insinuate than stand upon, perhaps ashamed to go still a begging to your Printer, to maintain the credit of your poor brat. You will not have your words to be, ut Razis seipsum occidens laudatur, as he printed & I cited them, but At Razias seipsum occidens laudatur, (e) Counters. p, 43. & so you still repeat them, signifying that the Printer changed (At) the note of a syllogistical subsumption into (). And truly (gentle Reader) that mayst happily look into his letter, there is so little difference betwixt () and (At) as my heart did much incline to pardon this error of the Printer. But when looking into the English redition (f) Lett. p. 61. I found, As Razis, instead of but Razias, and that he made As the head of the name, whereof it is the last part, remembering also that he had given me (g) Counters. p. ●8. that last syllable of Razias, against law, not first cutting off the entail thereof on Sir Edw. books: These things considered I say, I thought myself bound in justice to return the (As) to the right place, and entail the last syllable of Razias on the Printer to hold it in Capite of Sir Edward Hoby, and his books for ever. Shall he hereafter presume to print any of the Knight's books, who still returns his falsehoods upon his Printer, without taking pains to peruse the Authors he citeth? he shall have for his wages the whole word of Lazyas. So that now I may call the world to witness, I am not in his Printers debt, for any syllable or letter of Razias, except the R. which being a snarling letter he cannot expect from me, that saith I write a lisping language. 24. Now Sir Edward, let us return to you, who perceiving the vanity of this first excuse, you devise another, which yet in the end will prove less to your credit. You say your Assumption also, to wit that Razias is praised in the Maccabees for killing himself, which I averred was not S. Augustine's, is also the the very sentence of that Father, though not in that place, where your proposition is found, yet in another, which not to be tedious (forsooth) to your Reader, with long quotations you then omitted in (h) p. 42. your letter If you now pay us in currant money, we will forgive you the interest of so long forbearance: if you cannot, as I am sure you will never be able to do it, your vanity is admirable, who out of fear to be thought ignorant, undertake to show things that are not. 25. You leave S. Augustine: loathe you are to make him at odds with himself (k) p. 43. : you run unto Lyra, you seek by that instrument to make S. Augustine's doctrine seem to jar with itself. Lyra, say you, upon the 24. Chapter of the second of Maccabees doth deliver two cases, wherein the jews hold it not only lawful, but also meritorious for a man to kill himself. First, ne subditus fieret peccatoribus. Secondly, ne in contemptum Dei Caeli, eius vita in ludibrio traheretur. He concludes, Some think S. Augustine's saying which here followeth in the gloss, is thus to be understood. Thus writ you, not very sincerely relating Lira's doctrine; but because it is not to the purpose I omit to discover you. At the naming of S. Augustine's saying, dreaming that it must needs be your Goose or Woodcock, your teeth water to have it in your mouth: O, say you, that I could meet with the saying of Augustine that I omitted to cite! doth Lira say, it followeth here in the gloss, then will I presume so far upon your patience as to write it out. Thus you tune your instrument before you play. Take heed Sir, you abuse not those worthy gentlemen's patience, whom you invite to be your hearers after all these preambles, if you sound at last the harsh Hebrew harp of Lyra for the sweet latin Lute of S. Augustine you will give them just cause to laugh at your folly. 26. The saying you cite for S. Augustine's out of Lyra (l) in 2. Mach. c. 14. is this: unde & scriptura huius libri, quae recepta est ab Ecclesia ad legendum pro informatione morum, non videtur sic Raziam arguere; sed commendare, de suiipsius interfectione: si autem praedicta non sufficiant ad eius excusationem, dici potest, quòd hoc fecit per specialem instinctum Spiritus sancti. Whereupon the Scripture of this book, which is received by the Church to be read for information of manners, doth not seem here to reprove Razias, but rather to commend him for killing of himself: and if the aforesaid excuse, do not suffice, it may be said he did that fact, by special instinct of the holy Ghost. Thus you writ calling me Sophister and dizzi-braynd Ismaelite, for saying that it was far from S. Augustine's gravity to read the Maccabees, with so little sobriety, as to think that Razias was praised for killing himself, yet, say you, whether S. Augustine was of this mind or no, let it lie upon Lyra's report. 27. No Sir, this false report, will lie upon yourself, except you will confess the truth, that some Minister suggested this lie unto you to disgrace S. Augustine: you have couched such falsehood and folly together, that I know not, which I should first and most accuse. But with your patience I will touch them both, but your folly first. For if this be S. Augustine's sentence, who doth not see that your argument, to prove the Maccabees not to be Scripture, is not worth a rush? For if Canonical Scripture, give leave to a man to kill himself, by the especial command and instinct of the holy Ghost: if Razias killed himself by such a special precept, what did he against Canonical Scripture? Why should not the book of the Maccabees be sacred though they praise Razias for this fact, as well as the book of judges where Samson is praised who did the like? Spiritus latenter hoc iusserat, saith S. Augustine (m) l. 1. de Civit. c. 21. qui per eum miracula faciebat. The spirit that did Miracles by Samson, secretly commanded him to kill himself. Let us put your syllogism into form as you desire, this it is. No Canonical book doth command or praise killing once self, without special instinct of the holy Ghost. But Razias killed himself by that special instinct, and for this respect is praised in the book of Maccabees, ergo the book of Maccabees is not Canonical Scripture. I dare say, you need not write Goose or Woodcock, over the head of this argument every one will perceive the feature you have drawn, though underneath you say nothing. 28. This is your ignorance, but now your Minister's falsehood is yet more notorious & admirable, for you skip over the true sentence of S. Augustine which Lyra citeth, which is also cited in the Gloss, & indeed found in his works, and you bring Lira's own words and illations, which stand many lines after, for the very saying of this Father. Thus Lyra writeth in that place: Some say, that the saying of S. Augustine, which is found in the Gloss, is thus to be understood. Do you long Sir Edward for S Augustine's saying; hearken unto Lyra which doth sound it, (n) August. l. 1. de civit. c. 21. His exceptis, quae lex generaliter justa, & ipse fons justitiae Deus specialiter jubet occidi, quisquis hominum vel seipsum, vel quemlibet alium occiderit, homicidij crimine innectitur. Those excepted, whom just laws in general, or God the fountain of justice doth specially command to be killed, what man soever doth make away with himself or any other is guilty of the crime of murder. This is S Augustine's saying, which you may find also verbatim in the Gloss, in that very page. And this saying some did understand, that when one killeth himself to the end that he may not be drawn by torments to an Idolatrous religion, or not be mocked to scorn in contempt of his God, that he sinneth not, because justice in such cases did allow of it. 29. Which interpretation is both false and against the mind of S. Augustine, who doth often teach and largely prove, against the Circumcellians, that in such cases, killing once self is unlawful (o) Quicunque hoc in seipsis perpetraverunt animi magnitudine, fortasse mirandi, non sapientiae sanitate laudandi sunt. l. 1. de Civit. c. 22. , that Razias was not commendable for that fact, which the Scripture did report, not praise. Look into the Gloss upon that place, which is taken out of S. Augustine, this piece whereof Lyra citeth, you shall not find so much as a word in defence of Razias. How can this corruption be excused from witting falsehood, to pass over S. Augustine's saying so obvious that lay in the way? Was he not a nimble fox (p) Illa levi velox superabat devia cursu; summaque transibat positarum lina plagarum. , that could fetch such a leap over a marble pillar, into a long piece of ground? But to whose charge shall I lay it? Your Printer is all ready loaden, your Minister I must not meddle with; if I touch your Person, I shall hear you rage, (q) pag. 2. that like a shrewish distracted malcontent, I scratch, kick, spurn, hale, tear men noble by descent, eminent in places, profound in judgement, skilful in tongues, famous for learning, virtue, and experience in travails, by which periphrases you seem to describe yourself. What shall I do but follow an ancient custom, which was to beat the Minstrel when the Cook did amiss (r) Tibicen vapulat. . You compare yourself to (s) pag. 61. Gracchus, who came not at any time (say you) to make an Oration without a Minstrel, who by the sound of his Pipe did set him a right and just Key. Wherefore let your Minstrel, whosoever he was, that piped you this Key, to sing and play S. Augustine's doctrine upon Lyra's ditties, let him have the reward your ridiculous excuse doth deserve, to be thought Asinus ad Lyram. 30. And truly this Father, doth so often clearly and peremptorily avouch the Charter of the Maccabees, which confirmeth Purgatory to be sacred, that I wonder any man that had read his works (as you would seem to have done) could undertake to prove the contrary: which attempt would have no other issue, than you have brought yours unto, Shame and Contempt. When he makes the Catalogue of Canonical books, (t) l. 2. de Doctrine. Christian. c. 8. doth he not rank these with the rest? That no man can think them, by his list, less Canonical than the other? did not this Father subscribe to the Council of Carthage where those books were canonised, as even M. Crashaw doth grant, (v) Serm. p. 80. with whom I might join Doctor Field, Reynolds, Perkins and many other Protestants, (x) See the Protest. Apolog. tract. 1. sect. 10. subdivis. 11. who yield unto these books the warrant of the Council, for their Sacred authority. 31. I can but pity you, who writ your learned lines, with Ministers notes before you, whose lies, when they are once in your books, you will be angry they be not thought yours: such is your assertion (z) Lett. pag. 63. opposite to your best Authors, that the Council of Carthage did not admit the Maccabees into the Canon, in proof whereof you say, that our own Canus doth confess, that had they been so ratified, it had been neither for Gregory, nor for any other to have afterwards doubted of them. Shall I tell you the plain truth. This is not the testimony of Canus that learned Divine, but of Canis, your Snarling Cur. Canus hath, in that place, two sayings so mainly opposite to both yours, as no Logician can devise more perfect contradiction by the rules of Art. 32. First he saith expressly, (a) l. 2. de loc. Theol, c. 9 hanc nostram conclusionem docet Concilium tertium Carthaginense. This Conclusion (that the Maccabees are Canonical) is taught by the third Council of Carthage, which, saith he, though but a Provincial Council, was confirmed by Leo the fourth, and by the Council of Trullum. This is contradictory to your first assertion, that the Council did not admit those books: and against your other, that had they admitted them, our Gregory might not have doubted of their Authority, in that very place and paragraph you cite, he saith: (b) Id modò in dubium vocare non licet, quod D. Gregorio, Eusebio & reliquis licuit aliquando dubitare. It was lawful for Gregory, Eusebius, and others to doubt thereof (that being but a Provincial Council) but now we may not doubt thereof, after a General indubitate definition of the Church. Can East be more opposite to West, light unto darkness, than the sayings of Canus found in his book, unto those you report as his? Do you think to win credit by your Cur, that greedily licks up all manner of foul and false stuff from Ministers trenchers? And whereas your Snarler saith (c) pag. 36. that S. Augustine, granting the jews did not admit the Maccabees, held it small reason, for afterages to entertain them in highest esteem, I wonder (if that be true you say) that you can cite S. Augustine without a Prompter, that you had not in promptu, at your finger's end, the known saying of that Father, wherewith he knocks this puppy on the head: not the jews but Church of Christ (saith he) libros Machabaeorum pro Canonicis habet; (d) l. 18. de Civit. c. 36. doth entertain the Maccabees for Canonical books, which is the highest esteem any writings can have. 33. The same doth S. Augustine teach, in the testimony by you cited in his books against the Epistle of Gaudentius, (e) l. 1. c. 31. which I said in my Treatise made against you. His words are these, The jews do not admit the book of Maccabees, as they do the Law, prophets, and the Psalms, yet is it profitably entertained by the Church if it be read and heard soberly. These words (said (f) Ouerth. pag. 135. I) signify that the Christian Church admitteth these books as Canonical, even as the Law and Prophets were Canonical with the jews. And though this my inference, doth so displease you, that you say, no sober settled brain, will stumble upon such a sense (g) pag. 35. , yet truly, I see no reason why any man should think you were sober that stumble upon such a Censure. For by that testimony it appeareth, that the Christians gave that Authority to those books, which the jews did not grant unto them, that the Church did set them up in the throne, from which the Synagogue had kept them, which was the Imperial throne of Sacred Authority: otherwise S. Augustine's opposition, the jews did not, but the Church doth, were vain. For the jews did admit the Maccabees into the number of hagiographical books, which were read for edification of the People. So that, if the Christian Church doth admit them into higher Authorities than the jews, that must needs be the highest of all; seeing even the jews did place them in the degree next the highest. 34. You rage's saying (h) pag. 35. , that I infer S. Augustine to speak against his mind, who never meant, that Canonical Scripture is received with a Si, which is necessary to be acknowledged, though it fall out by default to be Sapor mortis ad mortem. But neither did I, nor S. Augustine say, that the books are received with a Si, but that the books received are profitable to them that read them with a Si. The books (saith he) are received profitably, if soberly they be read. So that the receiving of the books is absolute, but the books absolutely received, do not profit the Readers, without a Si sobriè, except they be read with sobriety. Had you read S. Augustine's words, with S. Augustine's Si, you would not so grossly have miss the finger of his, and my meaning. Are not things most divine and heavenly, taken without a Si, very dangerous and hurtful? The most sacred Sacrament of the Altar, the fountain of grace, doth not benefit the soul without a Si dignè, except it be worthily taken; which wanting, it is Sapor Mortis ad Mortem. 35. And if when a man is unworthy of that Celestial food, the Church may keep the same from him, why may she not also keep the Scriptures, translated into vulgar tongues from People, whom she doth prudently think will not make benefit thereof: Nor have stomach to digest so strong and solid meat, except it be first masticated by the Preachers mouth. Why may she not examine their sufficiency for the one, as she doth their worthiness for the other; yet you say, (i) pag. 35. that S. Augustine never dreamt of such a drunken Church, as ours seems to be, by eloyning the Scriptures in the vulgar tongue, from common people, lest it should hurt them. I might wonder, that you should call a Church so Ancient, Famous, and Catholic as the Roman is, Drunken, for a practice so full of wisdom and circumspection as this is, did I not know, that the custom of men that are tippled, is, when they stagger themselves, to think that Churches, and the very heavens reel about them. I will not say you wrote in dark, seeing you affirm that like Demosthenes you endighted by the lamp (k) pa. 62. : Rather will I think that your single lamp, doubled in your eye, which happeneth to them that love wine when they have their Cup in their hand, — Vertigine caelum, Ambulat, & geminis exurgit mensa lucernis. 36. In this case perchance you were, when you wrote (l) let. pag. 42. that Purgatory is backed, neither by any express testimony of holy Writ, nor any exemplary proof besides Hobgoblins, Rawheades, Bloudybones, & Night-ghostes, which the world many years since hath forgotten to believe. And again with as little sobriety you say (m) let. p. 79. unto us: had it not been for your Grand patriarchs S. Homer, S. Plato, S. Virgil, you would never have known how to have set your Compass for the discovery of your new-fond land. Can your Church be thought sober that permitteth you to pen such staggering and staring exaggerations as these? For to say nothing of S. Cyril, S. Chrysostome, S. Damascene, S. Gregory, S. Bernard, & other Fathers cited for Purgatory in that learned Treatise, which you would seem to answer, whose plain testimonies for this doctrine may seem to have been Nightghosts in your way, which so scared you as you durst not come nigh them with an answer, I hope your pen is not so far past Modesty, as you dare term the Doctors & marble-pillers of God's Church Rawheads, Hobgoblins, or Heathens. How happy were Queen Elizabeth's Ghost, might she enjoy the everlasting company of those Blessed, and never see your Heathenish Saints Theseus, Aristides, Plato, Hercules, and others, Zuinglius tom 2 pecc. origin fol. 118. et in exposit. fidei Christian. fol. 159. whom your great Patriarch Zwinglius admitteth into your Protestant heaven. 37. To omit I say this proof by Fathers, which no learned divine will deny to be exemplar, what say you to the Maccabees, and the whole Church of God, in those days, that did practice prayers for souls in Purgatory? Is not he a Rawhead that condemneth so many Saints both before and after the coming of Christ into Hell? That dareth call that the doctrine of Devils, which is taught in books indited by the holy Ghost, if we believe S. Augustine? With whom I could join other Fathers no less ancient than he, canonizing the same books, would the shortness of this Letter permit me. But his testimony may suffice alone, which bringeth with it, the authority of the Church in his days. For how would he entertain the Maccabees, whereof some Fathers doubted, but upon the warrant of the Church, without whose word he doth profess, that he would not believe any of the gospels (n) l. contr. Epist. Fundam. c. 5. ? And seeing ancient councils do curse and say Anathema (o) Si quis dixerit alias Scripturas, praeter eas quas Ecclesia Catholica recipit, in authoritate habendas, anathema fit. Concil. Toletan 7. in confess. fidei. to any that shall believe any book to be Scripture besides those that are admitted by the Catholic Church, seeing also that to entertain books as Canonical, which indeed are not, is more dangerous & prejudicial to the Church, then to reject those that are truly sacred: this supposed, who that hath any reverend conceit of this learned Father, will doubt but he had for the Canon he citeth the warrant of the Catholic Church? Is it not credible that some Fathers who deny these books, were ignorant of the Churches warrant, rather than S. Augustine, so rash and presumptuous, as to Canonize them without it? For how can he be excused from great temerity if herein he erred? Yea doth he not deserve to be thought a deluder of the Church, if she did not indeed entertain those books, which he doth constantly avouch she did? From which imputation the blessed Saint was so free, as even Caluin (p) l. 3 instit. c. 3 §. 10. & l. 4. c. 14. §. 26. doth allow him the style of the best, and most faithful witness of Antiquity. 38. You grieve and deplore your hard hap (q) Counters. p. 28. , that I should endight you for the least wrong done to that Marble-piller, that glorious Saint, that ever-admired Augustine, to whose heavenly Meditations, sweet sayings, and learned discourses, I own (say you) more than half of myself. Did you owe indeed to this Father one inch of your life, you would not scornfully reject his authority as you do elsewhere, saying: As if our saith were to be pinned on Augustine's sleeve (r) Lett. pag. 71. : you would not make that the doctrine of Devils, which he did depose, was written by a pen led by the hand of infallible Truth; you would not term Purgatory, which you cannot deny but he taught, a Satanical Figment (s) Lett. 75. evacuating the Cross of Christ. 39 As for Wrong offered to this Saint, none perchance ever did him greater, than you have done in your Letter, writing in this manner of him: (t) Lett. pag. 70. We find, say you, that the entire love of his mother Monica, and other his dear friends, made him somewhat too forward in this point. And why may not this be one of these things of which he speaketh ad januarium, (u) Epist. 119. c. 19 There are many things, which I dare not reprove as I would? Thus you wrote, where you first contradict what now you writ in your Snarl, calling him glorious & ever-admired marble Pillar, whom your former words make a wavering Reed, beaten with light blasts, either of fear or of affection, into damnable and diabolical errors. Secondly, you make him guilty of that fault which your Cato termeth shameful (x) Turpe est auctori cum culpa redarguat ipsum. of sharply reprehending in others the sin of superstitious devotion to the dead, wherein he was, you say, to forward himself. Thirdly, you offer this Saint intolerable wrong, in saying that he did dislike indeed the custom of praying for the dead, but durst not reprove it out of fear to (z) Propter nonnullarum vel sanctarum turbulentarum personarum scandala devitanda. offend and give scandal. For how could this his forbearance not be damnable, if the custom of praying for the souls in Purgatory, be injurious to Christ's blood, as you say it is. 40. And suppose that fear of men might diminish the sinfulness of his omission, in not reproving so wicked a custom, yet no excuse can cover his impiety, in defending and allowing, as he did, the doctrine which you call the devils, except this your Censure be irreligious. For what fear of God could be in his heart, if for fear of Men, he did not only forbear to reprehend, but also teach, and strive to prove, what he knew was against truth, against Christ's blood, against God's glory, perverting and dissipating the Christian faith, as you say (a) Lett. p. 74. 75. the doctrine of Purgatory doth. With this gross fear do you charge him, and yet you think much I should endight you of the least wrong done unto him, yea you would have me think, you own to him more than half of yourself, whose head, heart, and tongue, are no more like his, than your go was like the said the Printer turned it unto, your conceit doth not savour of his wit, nor your pen of his learning, nor your Style of his modesty, nor your heart of his Fear of God, and Reverence to the Church. This sentence of yours may suffice alone to give any judicious Reader, to understand your opposition with S. August. & how much reason I had to term your Letter (b) Lett. p. ●1. unlearned, you laying together on an heap the points of Catholic doctrine you mislike, whereof you think Purgatory the groundwork in this sort. 1. Merits, 2. Satisfactions, 3. Perfections, 4. Supererogations, 5. Masses, 6. Vigils, 7. Superaltaries, 8. Noonday Lamps, 9 Dirges, 10. Christening & Burial Lamps, 11. Oblations, 12. roods, 13. Images, 14. Crosse-creeping, 15. Beads 16. Crucifixes, 17. Pictures, 18. Grains, 19 Incense, 20. Hollowed Cemiteries, 21. holy-water, 22. Oil, 23. Salt, 24. Spittle, 25. Covents, 26. Professions, 27. Pilgrimages, 28. Relics, 29. Stewish Pardons, 30. Indulgences, this Riffraff, juggling, trash, & Babies sports have not only mutual reference, but fundamental dependence on Purgatory. 41. Is not this a learned enumeration and censure of the articles of our faith? Can you imagine that any man of judgement, will think your pen sober, that went thus tumbling from one point to another, without any discretion or order? Many of which doctrines by you related, I dare say have no more connexion with Purgatory, then hath one part of your discourse with another, which is, commonly, none at all. What hath Salt, Oil, Spittle to do with Purgatory? Or Beads, Crucifixes, Pictures, Relics, Images, Cross-creeping, that they may be said to be built upon it? Though Purgatory should be overthrown, I see not why the former things, as also Merits, Perfections, Supererogations, Crosses, Vigils, Superaltaries, Noonday-lampes, Christening and Buriall-tapers, might not remain, and be used as now they are. Much less can I perceive any sobriety in terming the points of doctrine, which you set down Riffraffe, juggling, Trash, and Babies sports most of which I think you dare not for shame, I am sure you cannot with truth, deny to have been most expressly taught by S. Augustine, to omit the pregnant testimonies of other ancient Fathers. 42. For to speak only of Merits, which you set in the first place; Can you deny, that S. Augustine taught our Catholic doctrine concerning this point? doth not he say, (c) Epist. 105. ad Sixtum. that as the wages due to sin is death, so the wages due to righteousness is life eternal? And again: (d) De morib. Eccles. c. 25. the reward cannot go before Merits, nor be given before a man be worthy thereof. Yea (e) L. 3. in julian. c. 3. , that God should be unjust, if he that is truly just, be not admitted into his kingdom? Doth, or can any Catholic speak more plainly than he doth of merits? And the same might be proved in most of the rest of the doctrines and practices you score up for juggling tricks, and Babies sports, which had you any mediocrity of knowledge in S. Augustine, you could not be ignorant that they are his most express assertions. You desire me to naturalise (f) Counters. p. 59 your lines, which I dare say, if you are not bound unto some Minister for them, may be, for S. Augustine, or any interest his learned sayings, or sweet meditations may challenge in them, as free as the colt of the wild Ass (g) job. 11. quasi pullun Onagri se liberum natum putat. , which freedom you take to use wild phrases, saying, it is for servile pens, such as mine is, to write in mood and figure, for you it is enough you please yourself. (h) p. 39 43. But to return to our purpose, if S. Augustine be a glorious Saint, as you say he is, in what a wretched and damnable estate are you, that impugn him, in most points of the Faith, by which he attained unto glory? If he be an ever-admired Doctor of God's Church, doth not your blasphemy deserve eternal hatred, who make that doctrine the Devils, which he reacheth to be Gods? Is not Purgatories Victory over your lying Letter engraven in a Marble-piller, seeing you cannot give that title to that Doctor, in whose learned works this point of Catholic doctrine, in most clear and indelible characters, is indelebly written? THE THIRD CHAPTER. THE Vanity of your Logical Cavils AT the Catholic deduction of Purgatory, from the words of Christ, Matth. 12. vers. 32. THE Second Enemy which Purgatory hath in your Letter, and which makes you a mortal enemy to this Doctrine, is (a) Lett. to M. T. H. p. 26. & sequent. a proud conceit of your learning, and of the Logic you got, haunting Paruies in Oxford, by the principles whereof, you undertake to trip up the heels of Purgatory (to use your own phrase) standing upon the ground of sacred Scripture. Christ in the twelfth of S. Matth. vers. 32. saith of Sin against the holy Ghost, that it shallbe forgiven (b) Math. 12. vers. 32. neither in this world, nor in the world to come: Whence Catholics infer, that some kind of sins may be pardoned in the next world. For this text containeth both a distinction of two sorts of sins, some Remissible others Irremissible, and of two places where Remission may be had, namely this present world, and the world to come: Signifying that some sins may be remitted in the one place, some in the other, but Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost in neither. Whence followeth, seeing the next world is the time of justice, that God doth not there remit sins, without exacting and inflicting the due punishment unto the Authors, which is the Purgatory the Catholic Church doth, and hath ever taught. 2. This exposition no sooner soundeth in your ear, but your tongue waggeth in this sort (c), I protest I thought as much, you have turned up Nodie, dic sodes, deal plainly with your friends, came this Card out of the Stock? Is there any such clause in the text? Or any other express Scripture to justify this assertion? A young Gamester may see, it is but a bad sequel. Here is old packing, but I will discover you. Thus you did discourse, more like a Carpet Knight, than a sober divine, showing more skill at Cards then of Scriptures. But this Chapter, I make no doubt, will discover your ridiculous vanity, and make you feel the lumpish weight of your heavy-heeled pride, that your Logic, whereof you brag extremely, willbe made a laughing stock even to children. 3. And first you cannot deny, but this our inference and exposition of the foresaid place, is taught by five or six ancient and holy doctors, which that (d) p. 4. 5. 6. Treatise citeth; will your wisdom term them Nodies? S. Bernard the mirror of learning and Sanctity in his age, Venerable Bede, the principal ornament of our Nation, S. Isidore, the most eminent and ancient Doctor, and overthrower of Arianisme in Spain? Shall these learned Fathers be put in the number of Nodies? Shall one find such a doting justice of Peace again in a Country, as will cast such Doctors into stocks, or shut them up as you do in Bedlam? Take heed, as Diogenes warned a wanton youth, least casting your reproaches against heaven, De quibusdam levibus culpis esse ante judicium purgatorius ignis credendus est, pro eo quod Veritas dicit, Si quis etc. In qua sententia datur intelligi, quasdam culpas in hoc saeculo, quasdam in futuro posse laxari. you strike not your own Father. If you be an English Christian, you cannot deny S. Gregory to be your Father, by whose care, means, and industry the English Nation was converted unto Christ, as in the sixth Chapter of this book shallbe proved. 4. Hear what he saith: (*) l. 4. Dial. c. 39 We must believe, that for some light faults, there is a Purgatorie-fyre, before the day of judgement, because the Truth doth say, If any shall utter blasphemy against the holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven, neither in this world, nor in the world to come. In which saying we are given to understand, that some sins may be forgiven in this world, and some in the next. For what is denied of one, it is clear that consequently it is granted of the other. Thus didst thou write Blessed Saint, a thousand years ago, even when thy heart was fullest of comfort for the Conversion of our Country. It would not a little have allayed thy joy, hadst thou foreseen, that heresy in this unhappy age, should bring back again that barbarous and blasphemous language, which thou didst banish by the Preachers thou sentest us. Perchance thou didst then little think, that one of that Nation, which in the bowels of thy charity thou didst above all other cherish, to bring them forth the children of God, should presume and be permitted to term thy Expositions of Scriptures (though not thine alone, but common to thee with other Fathers) Nodies! especially containing that faith, which by the overthrow of Paganism, thou didst plant in this land! But Sir Edward, what think you of that Father, whom you named a Marble Pillar, a glorious Saint the ever-admired Augustine, to whom owing more than half yourself, if you lay on his exposition the former reproach of Noddy, you may justly be thought more than half out of yourself. 5. Thus S. Augustine writeth upon our place of Scripture; Neque enim de quibusdam veraciter diceretur, quòd non eis remittetur, neque in futuro, nisi essent, quibus etsi non in isto tamen remittetur in futuro Aug. l. 21. de Civit. c. 24. It could not be truly said of some men, that their sins should not be forgiven in this world, nor in the world to come, unless there should be some men, who though they are not pardoned in this world, yet they should be pardoned in the world to come. So he▪ I confess that this Father is more bound unto you then the rest, for you seek (e) Lett. p. 46, 47. to exempt him (which you do not so much as attempt in their behalf) from the company of Nodies, with a writ under Vives hand, that the aforecited words are not in any our known copies to be found, adding that not to do us wrong, you will not suppress that Vives goeth a step further, saying, Perhaps other impressions have them, So that, say you, the Interpretation of S. Augustine, as also that Father's judgements concerning Purgatory hangeth on a weak thread upon (forsan, Perhaps) which is as good as a new-nothing to hang upon your sleeve. Thus you: here is old and new packing up of truths and untruths together, which I will discover and make apparent, that some old Gamester, and new Ghospeller hath taught you his juggling tricks. 6. First Vives (f) Commentar. in illude. In antiquis libris Brugensi & Coloniensi. doth not say, that the foresaid words are wanting in all our known Copies, which Card you deal as his, but only in some ancient Manuscripts of Bruges and Cullen, and in the latter Edition at Friburge, besides which many other known Copies and Editions are to be found. Secondly he saith, that in all copies, these words are extant, Pro quibusdam defunctis etc. For some deceased the Prayer either of the Church, or other particular pious Christians is heard, but for such as being borne anew in Christ, Neque in exemplaribus Eriburgi excusis. their life in their body was neither so bad as they were unworthy, nor yet altogether so perfect that they had no need of such mercy. These words do clearly contain our Catholic doctrine of Purgatory, which words Vives doth acknowledge to be S. Augustine's, without any (forsan.) How then do you say, that the judgement of this Father concerning Purgatory, hangeth on a weak thread in Vives judgement? 7. Thirdly Vives doth indeed say, that the former exposition of S. Matthewes words by me cited, is wanting in some Copies, but he addeth; Tamen stylus non abhorret ab Augustiniano, the style dissenteth not from S. Augustine's style. This is somewhat more than a mere Perhaps; yea the sole savour of so grave a Father's style, might have stopped your pen from reproaching the doctrine thereof, especially with so foul a censure as Nody, had not the same been a Snarler. Finally, saith Vives, Either in other copies of S. Augustine, the former words are found, or taken from some other work of this Father, they were here inserted. Behold Vives doth grant this exposition to be certainly S. Augustine's, without any perhaps, though he doubt whether he did repeat the same in this place. And that S. Augustine in other places giveth indeed our exposition of the words, he is a mere stranger in his writings that will deny. l. 21. c. 13. For in this very book de Civitate Dei, not above ten Chapters before this, thus he writeth, Temporal punishments, saith he, some suffer in this life only, some in the next, some both now & there, yet before the last most rigorous day of doom. All that after death suffer temporal pain, do not fall into eternal punishment, which after judgement is for some. For to some, what is not forgiven in this world, is forgiven in the world to come, that they may not be afflicted with eternal torments. Thus he. Now is S. Augustine doubtful either of Purgatory, or of the exposition of this place, for pardon in the next world? Hath this Doctor in his vnfoulding the words of Christ turned up Nody? Or rather your Minister that dealt your Cards, using four false and deceitful tricks, concerning this testimony of Vives, may he not be thought to have turned up for you all the Nodies and Knaves in the bunch? 8. But this your gaming Metaphor is not so injurious to these Blessed Saints, as it is blasphemous against the holy Ghost, whose thrice venerable writings, did you reverence in your heart, more than the follies of your own brain, your pen would have trembled, to have called that exposition Nody, which so many grave Fathers, without the contradiction of any, do peremptorily affirm to contain his meaning. What can be sacred and certain amongst Christians, if an unlearned Knight may be permitted to deride that which the most famous Divines, and Fathers of former ages do deliver, as an undoubted verity, and Gods infallible word? It is true, that Fathers, to prove this or that Catholic verity, may sometimes bring places of Scripture, that have other sense, yea perhaps the sense that one or other doth give, may not be the best, although the doctrine thereby proved be true, which is to err according to the Analogy of the Place not of Faith. A distinction you understand not, yet when many Fathers of the Church agree in the same exposition of Scripture, without the Contradiction of any, the same is to be thought the undeniable sense of that place. For which cause Caluin cannot be excused of heretical rashness: (h) Caluin comment. in c. 10. Io. who dareth expound this Text of Scripture Ego et Pater unum sumus, I and the Father are one, of unity of Consent and Will, not of nature▪ and substance adding, that the Ancients did abuse the same, to prove the Consubstantiality of the Son of God. Happily the text cannot be so strongly urged, but Caluin● Arrianizing wit, may find some plausible evasion to escape the force thereof. Yet seeing the uniform consents of Fathers, have canonised that meaning of the words, he can not be a true Christian that will not (neither was Caluin that did not) submit his judgement thereunto. For the uniform consent of Fathers doth not require, that every one, none excepted, should expressly teach the same doctrine (for then scarce in any point, could this uniform consent be proved, seeing all writ not of the same point) but it sufficeth, that many have taught it in divers ages, without contradiction of the rest, and such is the exposition of this place for Purgatory and for the dead in the next world. Neither is S. Chrysostom's exposition you brought (k) Lett. p. 41. contrary unto this, that the sin against the holy Ghost, shall not be forgiven in this world, nor in the world to come, that is, Non effugient poenam, they shall surely be punished in this would, and in the world to come. For first it is not sure and certain, that universally all such sinners are punished in this world. Many times they flourish, prosper, and spend their whole lives in great worldly ioylity, as divers Persecutors, Sodomites, Apostatas have done, which you name as sins irremissible, and call their Author's Sinners in grain. Besides sin, never to be remitted; is more than to be punished in this world, and in the next. For as you heard S. Augustine say, some endure temporal punishments in this life only, and some in the next life only, some in both, so that one may be punished both in this, and in the world to come, and yet have his sin forgiven at last. The meaning then of S. Chrysostome is, they shallbe punished in this world without pardon, and in the next likewise without remissiion. Whence it doth follow, some may be punished in the next, with Purgatory Clemency as Boaethius speaketh. (l) Lib. 4: praef. 4. So that this exposition, as I said, though it be not taught expressly by every Father, yet is it not contradicted by any. These things Sir you should consider, before you speak: you should wipe away Tobacco smoke from your eyes when a Card is turned up, before you cry Nody, lest often, as now you have done, you lay the foul Epithet on the holy Ghost, indeed that true King of Hearts, who moved those Fathers to expound the words of Christ, for the remission of sins in the world to come. 9 You oppose against our Catholic exposition, another devised by yourself or your Ministers, wherein you do greatly delight. You will grant sins pardoned in the next world, and yet not yield one penny to our Purgatory box. In this world, say you (m) Lett. pag. 50. 51. sins are fully pardoned, quoad remissionis applicationem, by the application of pardon unto them, and the self same sins may, and shallbe pardoned in the next, per remissionis promulgationem, by the proclamation of pardon. This distinction you think is the (n) p. 32. five fingers, which you imagine will carry away the Set from the Fathers, yet I dare say a man that hath been conversant in Scriptures will judge it no better than Nody. First because it is a new devise not backed by the authority of any Father, which therefore may justly be suspected. For Scriptures are to be expounded, according to the traditions of our ancestors, not by our own fancies, as the Golden pair of Grecian Doctors Basil and Gregory did, who durst never follow therein their own judgements, as Ruffinus (o) recordeth: neither would you, Scripturarun intelligentiam, non ex propria praesumptione, sed ex maiorum scriptis & authoritate sequebantur. whose wit and learning is not to be paralleled with theirs, were you as humbly conceited of yourself, as you have cause. Secondly because you neither do nor can bring any express testimony of Scripture to confirm this your new fancy, nor any text, that may give the least colour or probability unto it. You cite the words of S. john, that the unbeliever is already condemned, yet say you, he must come to a second doom: so is it with the believer. Albeit he hath full remission granted, (p) c. 3. v 18 and his pardon sealed in this life, yet he must have the same proclaimed at the general Goal-delivery in the world to come, in which sense he may as truly be said to have his sins pardoned, as the other, his condemned. 10. Thus you preach very learnedly as you think though God knows to little purpose. For first you neither do, nor can tell, what is the first doom the unbeliever undergoeth, by which he is damned in this world, and after which he must come to a second. The ancient Fathers expound that place, not that he is indeed sentenced in this world, but is said to be condemned and judged, because the cause of his condemnation is so clear, that no doubt or question can be made of the sentence he shall receive (q) More prophetico, quia certissima est non credentium damnatio, dicuntur iam iudicati. Aug. apud Toletum Annot. 27. in c. 3. joan . So we use to say of a Malefactor, whose crime is notorious, that he is a condemned, or dead man, even before the execution and verdict of the jury, (r) Sicut qui homicidium committit, iam iudicatus dicitur, quia lege morti est addictus. Chrysost. in hunc locum. were he not a Nody, that would thence infer that he must be tried twice, or die two deaths? Yet you infer upon the same ground, that the unbeliever must pass two dooms. Besides, if all sins must have double pardon, one in this world, another in the next, why should not all sinners also have a double condemnation, one in this world, another in the next? You seem indeed to grant this sequel, but Christ seemeth expressly to contradict it, making it the special cause of Infidels to be already condemned in this world, and not of every sinner. 11. Thirdly you mistake your Card, and seem not to know the very principles of Christian divinity, to wit, the true opposition betwixt the just and the wicked, in the day of judgement. For the difference is not, that the sins of the one shallbe pardoned, and not the sins of the other, as you dream, but that the works of the just shallbe rewarded, the deeds of the Infidels punished, their faith shall receive a crown of justice, the others Infidelity an eternity of torments. That is not the day of Mercy but of justice, (s) 2. Tim. 4. to give to every one according to his works, not to forgive any man his (t) Matth. 16. wicked works. That shall not be the General Goal delivery, as you surmise, but rather than shallbe the general filling of the Goal, with all sinners, to be locked up in misery everlasting. But the Pardon which the sinners in this life got of their sins, by their hearty penance, through the merits of Christ shallbe then proclaimed; I grant it: but that shallbe the proclamation of Pardon they have already gotten, not new getting of Pardom. Neither may it be termed a Pardom, but rather a triumph & victory over sin. If the bare Proclamation of Pardom, may be termed Pardom, I see not why the Proclamation of Baptism may not be called Baptism; so that by this your senseless phrase, one might say, that the Saints shallbe baptised & washed from their sins at the day of judgement, because their Baptism and sanctification shallbe there proclaimed. 12. Some may object, that one absolved in the Court of Conscience may afterwards be pardoned in the exterior Court, by undergoing public penance and humiliation in the face of the Church, for a sin already forgiven: I answer, those sins were not fully forgiven, the penalty of this disgrace being still reserved. But the sins of the Just, before the day of doom are fully pardoned; no penalty of disgrace or other pain is reserved; they are purged in this life or in the next, that they may be unspotted without wrinkle of the least sin or guilt, at that day appearing. They shall not then appear as humble penitents, which were requisite, did they expect pardon; but as triumphers, as sitting in judgement upon sinners, and as punishers of the wicked, not as needing any further remission of sin themselves. So that your exposition crosseth the whole course of Scripture not having any congruity with the phrase thereof. 13. As for the former exposition, to the end you may the better conceive your precipitation in your censuring it as Nody, and the force of our argument may more appear, I will particularly examine your cavils as the former deduction, and the many windings and turnings your Ministers have taught you, to elude the force of Christ's words. Your first assault is by examples: A Kentish Gentleman, say you (a) Lett. p. 33. , who not purposing to make his heir a great Clerk, saith, This my eldest son shall never be student in Oxford or Cambridg: were he not an excellent Arteist that should thence infer, ergo, some of his sons shall go to Cambridg? Or if he should say, as without ridiculous absurdity he may, my son shall neither be Scholar in Eton, or fellow in Kings-colledg, were he not out of his wits, that would here conclude, ergo, a man may be fellow of Kings-colledg, that was never Scholar of Eton, that being against the first foundation? These are your goodly instances, by which you would conclude, that the Father's expounding the words of Christ as we do, were out of their wits. Where you do show yourself such an excellent Arteist, that you bring examples that make against your purpose, as shall appear. For your Kentish Gentleman's speech, that his eldest son shall not be student in Oxford or Cambridg, nor scholar in Eton, nor fellow of Kings-colledg, though it do not import, that either his second, or third, or fourth Son shallbe student in Cambridg, or fellow of Kings-colledg: yet this doth follow (except his speech be ridiculously absurd) that some youths may, & use to be students in Cambridg, some men fellows of Kings-colledg, else it were foolish to make that special exception against his first Son, which is general unto all other men's children. 14. This will appear by other examples. Should this Gentleman say; My eldest son shall not be a University scholar neither in Oxford, nor in Queene-burrow Castle, were not his speech absurd? Why I pray you, but because Queme-burrow is no University? Should he say, my son shall not be scholar in Eton nor Pope in Christ's College, who would not laugh at his speech? The reason is, because the fellows of that College are not Popes. Should he say, my son shall not learn his Grammar in Eton, nor in Oxford, might not one gather (unless his speech be senseless) that some use, or may learn their Grammar in Oxford? Now to our purpose and place of Scripture: These examples show that except there be some remission of sins in the world to come, the speech of Christ should be senseless, and absurd against one sin, that it shall be remitted, neither in this world nor in the next, except some sins may be remitted in the world to come. For he should seem to make, not remission in the world to come, a special circumstance of this one sin, which were a general circumstance of all, and every one, if your doctrine be true; by which it is no more, that a sin be remitted neither in this world nor in the next, then merely not to be forgiven in this world. So that the particle nor in the world to come were idle, without sense, which may not be thought of the world of Wisdom. Wherefore to make the speech of Christ discreet and wise, we must needs grant, that some sins are pardoned in the world to come. 15. Whence we further infer, that those sins were not fully and perfectly pardoned in this life. For the sins that were wholly pardoned in this life, need no remission in the next, and if any be remitted in the next, such they are, as were not, at least fully pardoned in this. And this is the difference betwixt being a Scholar in Eton, and a fellow in Christs-college, and Remission of sin in this world, and Pardon thereof in the next; because to be a scholar in Eton doth not repugn with being afterward fellow of Christs-college; whereas full Remission of sin in this life, doth not agree with Remission in the next. For how shall that be truly forgiven, that is wholly forgiven before? So that, though one may not infer he was fellow of Christs-college, ergo he was not before Scholar in Eton, yet we may and must infer, this sin is remitted in the next world, ergo the same was not formally, fully, and perfectly forgiven in this present life. Thus your own examples discover your ignorance, thus you are hampered in your own snare. 16. No less vain is your other logical assault, where you think you put us to a plunge, by returning our Paralogism as you term it upon us. Thus you dispute. (b) Lett. p. 34. The sin of the Holy Ghost shall never be remitted, quoad poenam aut quoad culpam, in this world, nor in the world to come, which is (say you) repugnant to the position of our own sect, recorded by Suarez, whose words you cite (c) Tom. 4. d. 45. §. ●. p. ●57. . Thus you return arguments as children use to do stones they are not able well to lift, which they let fall on there head or foot. First it is not against the doctrine of our Church, that some sins are forgiven in the world to come & quoad Culpam & Poenam, both according to the guilt of sin, and according to the guilt of pain, yea Catholic Divines commonly teach, that venial sins are remitted in the next world according to both guilts, namely Suarez in that very place you cited, though of mortal sins he saith, that remissio mortalium, the remission of mortal sin in the next world, cannot be understood, quoad Culpam, according to the sin, but only quoad poenam, according to some penalty due to it. Behold how well you understand the Authors you name. You had great reason, doubtless, to say, that you understand the most artificial conveyance of the best of our works, (d) Counters. p. 58. who cannot read, without mistaking, six lines of a Scholastical Author. 17. Secondly your Retortion is of no force against that Position, did we hold it. For out of the former text of Scripture, is gathered clearly, that some sins are remitted in the world to come, but what those sins be, venial or mortal, likewise the manner of the pardon, whether it be according to the sin or penalty only, or both, cannot hence be proved, but out of other passages of God's word these verities are to be searched. To make this clear by your example; Should your Gentleman say, my son shall go to school either at Eton or Oxford, one may infer, that in either of these places, some kind of learning is taught, but not that Grammar is taught in Oxford & Logik in Eton, or è contra. Should a young gentleman say, that he will neither study in the Inns of Court, nor in the Universities, one may infer, except the speech be senseless, that in both places studies are professed, but he that would infer, that common law is studied in Oxford, or divinity professed in London, were he not absurd? So likewise the speech of Christ doth only signify in general Remission in the world to come, not distinctly explicate the manner thereof, nor the quality of the sins that are there purged. 17. Fain would you find some Parallel in Scripture to this speech of our Saviour, that may seem no less senseless and idle, then is this sensed in your manner. For want of better you bring that speech of S. Matthew, (e) c. 1. concerning joseph, that he knew her not, until she had brought forth her first-born Son. If out of this place (say you) (f) Lett. pag. 39 we should come upon you, ergo, he knew her after she had borne him, you would think that Blessed & holy Virgin most irrecompensably disparaged, and yet 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 seemeth to imply the same. Thus you discourse, thinking this heretical and Heluidian inference, not unlike to that of the Fathers, we stand upon. Yea, say you, Non owm ovo similius, one egg is not more like another▪ But if ever I be so happy as to be at your table to which you seem to invite me, I should be loath you be my carver, you are so apt to mistake and confounded things which do mainly differ, as I might easily have a Scorpion laid on my trencher instead of an Egg. The speech you bring out of S. Matthew, He knew her not until she had brought forth her first-born Son, doth only express a truth, that joseph did not know the Virgin till that time, neither is any thing wanting or superfluous in this speech, but in the other speech, this sin shallbe fonrgiven neither in this world, nor in the world to come, the last clause thereof is superfluous & senseless, signifying no more than the former if there be no remission in the world to come, as hath been proved. 19 Moreover the denial of some action, until a certain time, doth not imply any necessary consequence thereof afterward, which may be proved by familiar examples in our common speech, As if one say, he never yielded unto sin till death, it is consequent that after death he yielded unto sin. The same may be showed in a thousand places of Scripture. God the Father saith to Christ, Sat on my right hand until I make thine enemies a footstool to thy feet (g) Psal. 109. , when this is done, shall Christ lose his seat at his Father's right hand? Noe. So his Mother, that was untouched until she brought him forth, ceased not to be a Virgin after her Childbirth. Now no example can be brought out of the Scripture, of a speech distinctive, that is, that hath two parts or members, where one of those particles is idle, the second part implying no more than the first. Neither doth common sense or discretion, practice, or allow, such senseless prattling, which may yet be further confirmed by divers examples, but one other shall suffice by which any judicious Reader will easily perceive a main difference betwixt the Heluidian inference and Catholic deduction from Scripture. What think you, Sir Edward, of this speech? The Virgin never committed mortal sin from the first moment of her life, until the very last thereof; doth this speech sound uncouthly in a Christian ear? Shall one infer Ergo after life she committed mortal sin, were not such an inference ridiculous and absurd? you see then that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, until, doth not imply consequence of the action afterward. Now should one say of the blessed Mother, she never committed sin either in this life or after her death, would not this speech seem to a judicious hearer absurd? Might not one think the last clause thereof senseless, except sin may be committed in the next world? I appeal to the judgement of any Christian ear, whether there be not a main difference betwixt those two kind of speeches, which you would have like. So that still on your head doth light, the scornful Epithet wherewith you reject the Father's judicious inference out of our saviours sentence 20. Yet you have one shift more, which is a rule of logic, whereof you writ in this sort: (h) Lett. p. 33. 34. I am sure it was a rule when I first haunted Paruies', Quod de uno negatur, non semper de diversis affirmatur, & è contra. My reason, say you, is, Potest idem praedicatum de diversis subiectis praedicari, as thus, Eos qui foris sunt Deus judicabit, and this is true: eos qui foris sunt judicabit Deus, when subiectum doth differ, the praedicatum being all one. Neither may we argue thus: They are to be judged of God. Ergo, not by the Magistrate; and yet you stick not to say, This sin is not remitted in this world, nor in the next world, ergo, some sins shallbe forgiven in the next. Thus you talk like a great Doctor, when you have an ignorant Reader, though any man that hath the least skill in Logic doth see you have turned up a notorious Nody. For is he not a Nody-Logician and a young gamester in that art, that cannot distinguish betwixt Praedicatum and Subiectum, but taketh the one for the other? I am sure, one that had studied logic but three days, would not have committed such a gross error as you do, who brag (i) Lett. p. 6 of being a Master of Art, and senior of the Act, Absit, say you, invidia verbo. Truly some fool may perchance envy the word, or Title of senior or Master of Arts, but the logic to which that title was given, I cannot think an object of envy, you so childishly err in the first principles thereof. 12. For the Praedicatum in your two propositions, is not the same, the subject being different as you say, but the contrary, to wit, two different Predicates are spoken of the same Subject, Praedicatum is the thing which is spoken, Subiectum that whereof that thing is spoken. Who doth not see, that in these propositions the thing spoken is judge of those without, judge of those within, which are divers titles, predicates or properties, the thing of which, that is spoken, is God, one and the self same Subject, on whom both these titles light. And seeing Subiectum in a speech is that which goeth before the verb Praedicatum, that which followeth, the Boys of Eton may serve to laugh you out of your witless bragging that you can break tall men's heads with your Logic. I shall not need for this exploit to muster an Army of English, both horse and foot, as you do (k) p. 37. Angligenae attollant equites, peditesque cachinnum. to laugh against me, pardoning them afore hand, though they laugh without Modesty, because I did warn you by the way not to read Lipsius of the miracles of our Blessed Lady & other Catholic books, as you did insinuate your custom was, taking Tobacco and roasting crabs by the fire side: which admonition, whether it were ridiculous or no, and not rather necessary, I remit it to the judgement of them that best knew your humours. This I say, had you observed, perchance you would not have impugned our Catholic exposition in the manner you have done, to your shame, your pride falling into more than childish Ignorance, when you are prankest in the derision of the holy Fathers. Perchance in Oxford, you spent not so much time in haunting Paruies, as in hunting in Parks, or hovering at Larks, which Idleness were not so intolerable a fault, in one borne to such land as you were, did not your Arrogancy exceed your ignorance, employing your small learning against their religion whose living you enjoy, except your family be as very an upstart as your Faith. 22. Your logical rule (though the examples wherewith you declare it to be childish) we deny not to be true, that, what is denied of one thing, is not therefore said of another. So by rigour of Logic it doth not follow, that Remission of sin in the next world is granted of some sins, when it is denied unto one kind of sins, yet doth the same follow by the Rules of Prudency, because otherwise such a speech, though not false, yet should be idle, and senseless against rules of wisdom. And seeing it is most certain that no senseless or idle word could proceed from the mouth of our Saviour, we conclude necessarily, that the second clause of the former speech, hath some sense, which cannot be, as hath been showed, without remission of sins in the next world. Many speeches are not against Logic, though a grave Author will not use them. Your example to illustrate the matter, that (f) Let. p. 38. a Master shall not read you a Lecture, nor quick, nor dead, though it be not against the Logic you got in Paruies', yet would it not beseem the mouth of wisdom: to me it seems a spice of blasphemy, for you to bring your phrases, which you (g) Counters: p. 39 confess are neither in mood nor figure, to declare the speech of Christ, whose words are, in number, weight, and measure. 23. Strange conclusions might we deduce from your speech, did we not think that their author might be subject to folly, jesting at the Miracles of the Virgin, of john Swickius, who had his Nose struck of with a bullet, for playing with the Virgin's nose; you say (h) Let. p. 101. , that he lost the best nose of his face. Had a grave writer used that speech, I might have suspected that Swickius had more noses than one, but knowing you to be the author thereof, I can think you might be as ignorant in the number of his noses, as you are of the bigness of your own, who tell us as a great wonder, that when you take Tobacco, (i) Counters. p. 39 your nose doth not smoke so much as your chimey. Should one have said of Swickius, after that stroke, that he had on his face, neither nose of flesh nor wax, I see not what sin he should have committed against Logic: yet I think, except some men use to have noses of wax, he should have miss the mark of grave and discreet speech. This the wisdom of God could not miss; wherefore that must needs be the meaning of his words, which taken away, leaveth them in an empty sound, void of grave and full sense. 24. Rather than take to yourself the Nody you laid on our expositions; you seem in a manner to grant all, to wit, that the speech of Christ was indeed senseless, wherein you would fain have Maldonate join with you (k) Let. p. 38. : you cite him upon a sentence of Christ, saying in this sort: Haec oratio hominibus absurda videtur, qui non intelligunt; Maldonatus sup. Matth. 19.14. this speech seemeth absurd to those that understand it not: why then, say you, should this proverbial amplification sound so uncouthly in your ears? you would be loath I should serve you with a Non intelligis, under Maldonates' seal. But Sir, I must by your leave, serve you with Non invenis, under the seal of truth. Do you consider, whether you may not serve your Minister, out of whose Note-bookes you copy these falsehoods, with a Mentiris. Maldonats' true words upon the sentence of Christ, (l) Matth. 29.24. that it is easer for a camel to pass through a needells eye, than a rich man to enter in to the kingdom of heaven, are these: Absurditas, saith he, ut videbatur, aut potiùs admirabilitas huius sententiae in causa fuit, ut quidam Cameli nomine nauticum funem, quo Anchorae alligantur, intelligerent. The absurdity as it seemeth, or rather the admirabilytie of this doctrine, caused some interpret Camelum, a Cable rope by which ships ride at Anchor: Which words of Maldonatus, make not for you but rather against you. We deny not but the doctrine of Christ and his speech, may seem absurd to carnal men, by occasion of the height and admirability of his doctrine, which the capacity of human understanding reacheth not unto, as Maldonatus saith; but that the speech and words of divine wisdom should indeed be absurd for want of sense or mystery contained in them, that he should express a truth in a disjunctive speech, one clause whereof is senseless, which no wise and grave man useth to do; this absurdity I say and superfluity of speech, we take it a great blasphemy in you to suspect in the doctrine of Christ. 25. Hence is answered the Question you make (m) p. 27. : It was an old proverb, say you, when I went to school, Veritas non quaerit angulos; How cometh it to pass, that S. (n) c. 3, 29. Marks exposition, to wit, that the sin against the holy ghost shall never be remitted, is such a mote in your eyes, that you are gauled to the quick, that he should decide the question? To this I reply, with another question, how cometh it to pass that the text of S. Matthew being larger in words then that of S. Mark, is such a beam in your eye, that you would have the same broken in pieces till it be no greater than S. Marks mote? The reason is I fear, because the partition of Eternity into this world, and of the world to come, to be two places for remission of sins, is a pair of spectacles, through which you must needs see Purgatory, except you wilfully shut your eyes. Is not this quaerere angulos, to seek corners, to leave the open field of S. Matthewes larger sentence, seeking a Commentary in S. Mark, more retired and concise speech. Seeing S. Matthew is more diffuse in words, we do him wrong denying them a more copious sense when they may bear it. S. Matthew divideth what S. Mark confoundeth in one: the two parts of eternity which in S. Matthew are manifest, in S. Mark are hidden; how then can S. Mark be thought an expositor of S. Matthew, who foldeth up, what the other layeth open? 26. I hope Sir you perceive this Catholic exposition of Christ's words, or deduction of Purgatory from them, is in itself most suitable with the wisdom of so grave an Author, specially backed with the authority of so many worthy Fathers, expounding them with us, against your men's fancy. If S. Augustine changed (o) l. 6▪ cont. jul. c. 11. vel. 23. & l. 1. retract. c. 23. his exposition of a passage of S. Paul, which he had constantly taught before, because he perceived the same was against S. Hilary, Gregory, Sanctos, notosque Doctores. Ambrose, and other holy and known Doctors of the Church, Melioribus, saith that ever-admired doctor, & intelligentioribus cessi. I yielded unto those that were better and more intelligent than myself. How dare you so peremptorily presume upon your new devised exposition, contradicted by many, not warranted by any ancient Father? How did you not fear to lay upon an exposition received generally for many ages in the Church, the title of Nody, yea to say, that the same is backed by no exemplar proof besides Hobgoblins (p) let. p. 42. ? 27. What S. Augustine said unto julian the Pelagian, who branded the doctrine of original sin with the title of a Manichean fable, may be retorted upon you, that disgrace Purgatory with the style of Satanical figment. Having brought six or seven Fathers for that point of Catholic doctrine, he concludeth in this sort, saying unto him: (q) l. 1. con. julia. c. 2. vel 4. finding you in your writings non antelucano convivio temulentum, sed insano convitio turbulentum, not so much tippled with wine taken next your heart, as distempered with senseless railing against truth, I have not brought you into Zenocrate's school, where drunken Polemo was made sober, but have summoned you unto the quiet and venerable assembly of holy Fathers. (r) Sanctorum Patrum pacificum honorandumque consessum. Let not my labour be lost, behold them that look on you, who sweetly and gently look on you: what son are we, Manichees? are we Hobgobling or Nodies? What can you answer? What eyes will you lift up against them? You will say you did accuse none of them by name of this error. But what will you do when they shall answer, we had rather your railing teeth should tear our name, than our faith, by the merit whereof of our names are written in heaven? What syllogisms will you frame? What will Aristotle's logic avail you, wherein you would feign show yourself skilful that you may seem an artificial disputer against us? Will you dare to draw your blade of brass, the leaden poyniards of your arguments (s) Tuorun argumentorum vitrea acies vel plumbei pugiones. in their presence? What weapons will not tremble, and shevering for fear, fall out of your hands (t) Quae abs te, arma non fugient nudumque destituent. , dauntted with the majesty of so grave a Senate? Thus S. Augustine. THE FOURTH CHAPTER. THE CHURCHES PERPETVALL TRADITION to pray for Saints in Purgatory in the next life. WHERE your i●sts against the Church's Authorities, and Scriptures, against this Tradition, are answered. THAT short and pithy Treatise, which you sought to disgrace with frothy lines, alleged (a) l. 1. p. 1. c. 1. §. 4. for Purgatory the custom of the Church to pray for the dead, and their relief in the holy Sacrifice of the Altar; which custom he proveth was perpetual even from the blessed Apostles. S. Cyril Archbishop of jerusalem living in Constantine the Great his time, writeth of that practice in this sort (b) Cathec. mystag. 5. . When we offer up sacrifice, we pray for our deceased Fathers and Bishops, and finally for all men departed amongst us, for we believe that this is a great help for the souls of them, in whose behalf we offer that holy and fearful sacrifice, which is laid upon the Altar. S. Chrysostome (c) hom. 79. ad populum Antiochenum. saith as much, that it was not unadvisedly decreed by the Apostles that in the fearful Mysteries, there should be a commemoration of the dead, for they knew the dead received great benefit & utility thereby. But most clearly S. Augustine, (d) Serm. 42. de verbis Apostol. There is no doubt (saith he) but that by the prayers of holy Church, and by the healthful Sacrifice, and by alms, the souls of the deceased are released, that God may deal more mercifully with them, than their sins have deserved: for this, being delivered by our Fathers, the universal Church doth observe. 2. Behold prayer for the relief of the dead, received from the Blessed Fathers & Apostles, practised by the universal Church, in that her most flourishing age, whose authority to impeach, is the badge of heresy, whose custom to condemn, is insolent madness. What say you to this Argument Sir Edward? Sometimes you labour to prove, that this was not an Apostolical Tradition, nor a perpetual and universal custom of the Church, you bring (e) pag. 76. 77. argument upon argument, five or six one upon the back of another, which it were lost time to set down For when your swelling & pregnant Mountains come to their Childbirth, they are delivered of a feely mouse▪ the force of your argument consisting in this testimony of Polydore Virgil; that, Purgatorium aliquando incognitum fuit, & serò cognitum Ecclesiae universae, it was a great while before Purgatory was hard of, and but of late known to the universal Church: I know I might pose you to find, nay sure I am you cannot find those words in Polydore. A sign that when you conceive your noble and worthy lines, you have Ministers note-bookes before you, which is the cause they are so false & foul, rather resembling a Minister then a Knight, some of that crew, as it may seem, had summed the substance as he thought of Polydors' discourses in that place you cite (f) De invent l. 8. c. 1. , which sum you transcribe into your Letter as Polydors own words, though Polydore, in truth, speaketh not one word of his own, concerning Purgatory, but merely relateth of Roffensis, whom you also bring; such is your beggary, making two distinct Authors of one. 3. Roffensis then must bear the brunt of this battle, whom you quote (g) pag. 77. , saying, that the Greeks' knew not Purgatory unto this day. Nay further he propoundeth this challenge, Read he that list the ancient Greeks' commentaries, and he shall find either little or no mention at all of Purgatory. But in this your English Edition you omit that which you have in your latin Original, Quantum opinor, as I now think or guess saith that Bishop, which is less than a new nothing to hang on your sleeve. For though Roffenfis at that time (h) art. 18. adversus Luth. had such a thought, not having then so fully perused the Grecian Fathers, yet afterwards in that very book, when he cometh to speak of Purgatory (i) art. 38. , he doth affirm the contrary in express terms. Whereas Luther did object (k) Graeca Ecclesiae Purgatorium non credit manens Catholica. , that the Greek Church did not believe Purgatory, he maketh this answer: I take it you mean the vulgar multitude of that Nation, not the Fathers of the Grecian Church, for that the Grecian Father's favour Purgatory, the works they left behind them do witness, than he bringeth divers authorities in proof of his Assertion. And again Luther objecting, that Purgatory could not be proved out of Scripture, he doth reply, that to pray for souls in Purgatory is a most ancient custom of the Church, adding (l) Cùm Purgatorium à to● patribus tam Graecis quàm latinis affirmetur. art. 38. circa principium. , that seeing so many Fathers both Greek and Latin aver Purgatory, it is not likely, but that truth was made known unto them, by sufficient proofs out of Scripture. Behold the swelling waves of your Syllogisms, which occupy a whole page of your book, now are ended in froth in a silly surmise of Roffensis, which upon mature and exact perusal of the ancient Fathers, he doth himself peremptorily gainsay. 4. But put case Polydore Virgil or Roffensis had said what you desire, could his words way down in any judicious balance S. Augustine's contrary assertion? Especially about the custom of the Church in that age, wherein this glorious Saint lived? S. Augustine against Polydors, or rather your Ministers Serò, that Purgatory is but of late, he hath à Patrihus traditum, that it is delivered from our Fathers, which Father's S. Chrysostome declareth to have been the Apostles: against the emphasis of non universae, not the universal; he hath the contradictory, universa observat Ecclesia, the whole universal Church doth practice prayer for the relief of some dead. Now you have the whole army of the Christian Church in all ages set in battle array against you, the blessed Apostles with Pikes (as I may say) of divine Authority standing in the forefront. You say (m) Counters. p. 24. the Apostles long since lent you a bridle to curb the motions of swelling pride, Si quis se existmet scire aliquid, nondum cognovit quemadmodum oporteat eum scire. This bit of sobriety, if you had it ever in your mouth, it may seem that wine hath washed it down, so tamquam equus sine intellectu, you run against this glorious army. You give a double assault; one with jests & Scoffs, deriding Catholics for the reverence they bear unto the Church's authority. Secondly you bring places of Scriptures, which to your fancy seem to condemn Purgatory, and the custom to pray for the relief of the diseased. First you begin (u) to jest at the saying of that Treatise, that it is insolent madness to contradict in this sort the custom of the Church, pulchrè dictum (say you) this is your Ladies A. B. C. the Church is as much beholding to you, as was Pythagoras to his Scholars; instead of ipse dixit, you will have ipsa dixit. Thus you writ. And truly from such a Poet as yourself, what could we expect but such irreligious jests; who perchance take your pen to write about Theological questions, when you are in the same case, your Father Enuius ever was, when he set himself to make Heroical verses. 5. For what man that hath any bit either of Divinity in his head, or Christianity in his heart, or sobriety in his tongue, would have accused catholics, for esteeming the Ipsa dixit of the Church, as much as the Pythagorians did the Ipse dixit of their Master? Why should not this Ipsa, the Mother of Christians, the spousess of the Holy Ghost, this Pillar and Foundation of truth, this daughter of God the Father, washed with the blood of his son, that she might in her doctrine have no blemish of error; Why should not her word (I say) be more esteemed of by her children, than the saying of Pythagoras a Pagan Philosopher was with his Scholars? I perceive you do love, more than believe the Feminine Gender, perchance you suspect in the Church, the fault you lay upon that Sex, (o) Counters. p. 52. with some rhyme, let them say with what reason Mulier nihil scit, nisi quod ipsa cupit. This makes you loath to submit your judgement unto Ipsa dixit. But you may be sure that the Dixit, or Saying of the Church, is never (p) ut maneat vobi cum in aeternum. joan. 14. without the dixit of God's spirit her Master. She hath the warrant of her Spouse, that he will make her words good, he that heareth you, heareth me, (q) Luc 10. to which her Commission he subscribeth with a dreadful Curse, He that heareth not the Church, let him be to thee as an Heathen (r) Luc. 18. . Oh what glorious Fathers and Doctors could I name, famous in former ages for Sanctity and learning, that submitted their judgement to the sayings of the Church! put their fingers to their mouth, when she did gainsay that they thought true, prostrating their learned pens to be ever at the devotion of her Censure? How highly did they esteem her Dixit, her judgement, her Word! Let S. Augustine speak (l) de Baptis. count Donatist. l. 17. c. 33. vel. 53. : I dare with the conscience of a secure voice, affirm (saith he) what in the Government of our Lord jesus Christ is established by consent of the universal Church. And again (m) de Baptism. count. Donatist. l. 4. c. 6▪ , If he say something, that doth say, We follow what we receive from the Apostles; how much more strongly do we say, we follow that which the Church did ever hold, what no disputation could overthrow, (n) Contra epist. Fundam. l. 5. what a General or plenary Council hath defined. Thus S. Augustine: do you see, what a Pythagorean Dixit, what uncontrollable Authority he granteth to the Church? 6. As little judgement or Piety do you show in your jest at the Ladies A. B. C, as though the authority of the Church were not the Alphabet and Christ-Crosse-Row, in which all Christians ought, and all ancient Christians did learn to read and believe the Scriptures. The forenamed S. Augustine, the Phoenix of wits, the mirror of learning, did he not learn in this book, Ego vero (saith he) evangelio non crederem, nisi me Ecclesiae commoveret Auctoritas? Truly I would not believe the Gospel, did not the Church's authority move me unto it. Why should any Lady or Lord, Master of Arts, or Doctor, disdain to spell the Gospel of Christ, by the same letters, such learning & sanctity used. 8. Shall I tell you, your protestant Ladies (*) Has linguas qui nesciunt & saepe & necessariò hallucinantur. Whitak. de sacra scriptura. pag. 523. A. B. C? For the old Testament those Hebrew Characters, now you begin to learn (o) Counters. p. 7. and the Greek letters for the new, which if they be ignorant of, I assure them according to your (p) Nullum nos editionem nisi Haebraicum in vetere, & Graecam in novo Testamento authenticam facimus. Whitak. controu. 1. q. 2. p. 128. Church's Principles, they cannot read so much as a syllable, that they may be certain is Scripture. They may read the English translation, you will say, that is Scripture. I deny the same to be Scripture except it be conformable to the Original, whereof those have no means to be sure, that cannot read, nor understand the two aforenamed learned tongues, in which they were primarily written. If you say they must believe it, upon the word of your Church (q) Multi nesciunt literas & tamenfidensanan retinent expraedicatione pastorum. Whitak. de sacra scriptura. p. 588. you bring them back unto ipsa dixit, and make them read the letters of Christianity in your Minister's horn book. Were it not better to stick to the Catholic Ladies A. B. C. that fair Christs-Crosse row, which our famous ancestors did learn? Cleave to the authority of that Church, which begun in the Apostles, by perpetual Succession of Bishops, is derived unto this age? * Illam Scripturam dicis non esse quam esse dicit universa Ecclesia ab Apostolicis sedibus usque ad praesentes Episcopos certa successione perducta. l. 28. cont. Faust. c. 2. 8. But suppose one would be scholar to your Church, hath she so much skill or any warrant not to err, as we may be sure she will not teach us amiss? Yourselves say (r) The whole militant Church may err, as every part thereof. Fulke in his answer to a counterfeit Cath. p. 86. that she may err, and teach us damnable doctrine. For which, when at the day of judgement we shallbe called to account to say our lessons, we may be laughed to scorn, lose the eternal reward, and be punished for ever. As it is insolent madness, to contradict the custom of the true Church (s) August. Epist. 118. ad januarium. so is it desperate madness, to follow the directions of such a Church, which though we religiously believe, exactly observe even unto death, yet may we be perpetually damned. But the Ladies of your Church learn forsooth of the spirit, they trust to Ipse dixit, who will teach them which is the Scripture. They are the sheep of Christ and know his voice, from that of strangers. These are your Ministers fair promises, yet I dare give them my word, though they have the best spirit that ever possessed any man of your Church; notwithstanding they may err damnably, mistake Scripture, think that to be true translation, which is indeed erroneous. Had not Luther the first fruits of the Protestants spirit? yet he erred most grossly; that even Zwinglius his fellow-witnes against the Pope, doth give this testimony against him, (t) tom. 2. l. de sacrament. p. 412. Thou Luther dost corrupt the word of God, thou art seen to be a manifest corrupter of the holy Scriptures. 9 What translation or spirit of your Church may your ladies trust, if Luther be so corrupt, as this your faithful witness doth depose? I see no remedy for them, if they mean to be saved from the deluge of errors, but to fly to your Ark of Noah printed at Venice, (u) Counters. p. 8. wherein you were shipped when my book came to your hands; your sheep must learn in an hebrew grammar to understand their pastors; they must nibble on those roots of jury which you, who have tasted of them, compare to the fiery thunderbolts in Gelons' belly, wherewith it would be great pity that your rare creatures should be troubled. And if this Arca cannot save them, nor assure them, which is truly translated Scripture, let them fly to the true Ark of Noah, the Caholike Church, to which Luther did foresee, his turbulent spirit, raising discord amongst Christians, would force them that truly desire to be saved, finally to fly to, for rest. (x) lib. de veritate Corpor. Christi contra Zwinglium If, saith he, the world continue long, the multitude of interpretations will force us to receive again the decrees of councils, and to fly unto them to conserve unity of Faith. 10. This is the Felicity of Catholic Ladies, to be already shipped in this Ark, that by the word of the Church, they know certainly, which is the letter of Scripture, which your Ladies like stray-sheep must seek on the top of craggy Mountains, as you term (z) Counters. p. 7. the hebrew language, not without eminent danger of an eternal downfall, losing therein time, they might have better spent in works of charity, prayer, & service of God. And put case which is morally impossible, they find out assuredly the true Hebrew roots, the true text of Scripture, yet would they be as much to seek, to spell & put the letters together, to make the true sense. What confusion is known to be in your Church, concerning this point, that as Irenaeus noted (a) l. 1. c. 5. Cùm fint duo veltres deijsdem eadem non dicunt. of ancient heretics, one shall scarce find two, that will spell the same sense out of the same words. These four words, Hoc est corpus meum, this is my body, containing not above fourteen letters, you have devised above fourtimes forty expositions (b) 200. expositions of those four words printed ann. 1577. apud Bell. de Euchar. l. 1. c. 8. , so different, as the Authors of the one, damn the favourers of the other to Hell. What shall your poor Ladies do in this combat? they may rashly persuade themselves, that this or that exposition is the best, but certain of any thing they can never be, till they admit the Catholic Ladies A. B. C. the Church's authority, learning of her the sense of whom they took the text. 11. But you go on with your scoffs, Me thinks say you (c) Lett. p. 67. I see you playing Demetrius, your craft is going to decay, & therefore you cry Magna Diana Ephesiorum, or which is all one in effect, Magna Ecclesia Romanorum. Thus you. You need I fear the remembrance Zeno gave to a talker, that was often laughed at for his folly, Loqui lingua in mentem intincta, to speak with your tongue dipped in wit, not in Wine, we do not in defence of Purgatory cry, Magna Diana Ephesiorum, nor only Magna Ecclesia Romanorum, but Magna Ecclesia Christianorum, the great Church of Christians in all ages. When was the Church of Christ greater, and according to the Prophecies, universally spread over the world, if not in S. Augustine's time? When did Christian learning and piety more flourish then in those days? And yet even then Purgatory was universally believed, Prayer for souls of the deceased practised in the whole Christian world, as you have heard S. Augustine witness: what is Magna Ecclesia Christianorum, if this be not? 12. But you have a salve worse than the sore, to wit, that you take it, when we name the Church, we have still reference to the former assertion, that the Roman Church is of more Principality than the rest. Do you call that assertion ours? did we invent that Title think you? Former you may well term it; for how ancient do you take this doctrine to be? S. Irenaeus a most ancient Bishop and Martyr, who lived immediately after the Apostles days, doth give the former Style to the Roman Church, planted by the most glorious Apostles Peter & Paul (d) l. 3. c. 3 : Ad quam propter potentiorem principalitatem, necesse est omnem convenire Ecclesiam: with which every Church must agree because of her more powerful principality, which Principality you cannot imagine what else it may be, besides the Primacy of Peter, to whom Christ did make (e) Matth. 16. joan. vlt. subject all other Pastors and Churches: by the light of which singular privilege bestowed on this Church in her first Pastor, she doth shine velut inter ignes Luna minores. 13. And in this respect the Roman Church may be termed Diana, by which is understood that clear star, whose beams do chase away the darkness of the night, which beams the dogs (f) Pierins in Hieroglyph. l. 5. de Cane● , who thereby see the shadow of their ugly selves, cannot endure, but wear and waste away themselves with barking at it. Heretics in all ages have been condemned by the judgement of the Roman Sea, by the light of her authority, they were forced to see the deformity of their hellish pride, which hath been the cause that they have still waged war against her. And when with their united tails, they could not bring fire enough to burn her Temple, by which like Herostratus they thought to eternize their names, they have not ceased, with their devised heads and tongues to rail and bark at her, till some of them burst. This consideration moved S. Augustine to say (g) De utilit. cred. c. 17. , that the Catholic Church derived from the Apostolic sea, partly by Authority of councils, partly by the consent of the world, partly in the majesty of Miracles, had obtained the height of Authority, frustra circumlatrantibus haereticis, heretics on every side still barking in vain against her. In which kennel your Snarler hath not the least mouth, so that in this age, no less then in former the verses are found true applied to the Roman Church. Sic latrant, sed vasta volat vox irritaventis, Et peragit cursus surda Diana suos. They bark, but wind drowneth their clamours base, Diana chaste holds on her heavenly pace. 14 Hear may we gather, that you understand not well yourself, when you say, that we have received neither Scriptures nor the Creeds, nor the first four General councils; nor any foundations of faith from the Roman Church, perhaps your reason was, because these councils, were held not in Europe but in Greece, and therefore you call them Grecian plumes. Wherein you are grossly deceived, and little perceive how highly you commend the Roman Church whiles you seek to dispraise it. For the cause why these councils were kept in Greece and not in Rome, as it is most honourable for the Roman Church, so is it little for the credit of the Grecian. Those heresies against which such councils were called, did spring up in Greece, often times the chiefest Bishops or patriarchs of the East were either Authors or their fautors. This was the cause, that often the Orthodoxal Bishops of Greece, in defence of truth, were forced to fly for succour to the Roman, as did Athanasius, and Paulus, the one Patriarch of Alexandria, the other of Constantinople, and others (h) Sozom. l. 1. c. 7. . To end which dissensions by his Authority, Supreme under God upon Earth over the flock of Christ, he hide procure that councils might be called in Greece, the discipline of the Church requiring that councils meet, examine the cause, and punish offenders, where the fault was committed. So that the cause why those councils were kept in Greece not in Rome, was the Purity of the one, never falling into Heresy, and the infelicity of the other, never to be without inventors of such monsters. 15. This sincerity likewise of Doctrine, as Ruffinus noteth (i) Ruffin. in expositione Symboli. is the cause that the Church of Rome did never add any word or syllable to the Creed, but kept the same entire without addition, which, saith he, happened not in other Churches, because other Churches having had heresies sprung up within their own bowels, did add some words to the Creed, to cross and meet with such errors which the Roman never did, nor had need to do, seeing no heresy had never beginning in it. Thus Ruffinus, wherefore seeing the Roman, Church, caused those councils to be held in Greece, confirmed the same afterwards, and their Creeds to be received through the whole Church, who can deny but we had those foundations of Faith more principally from the Roman then any other Church, the Principal Sea from whence, saith (k) l. 4. ep 8. S. Cyprian, Priestly dignity (one great Pillar and Foundation of Christianity) did flow. Unto which Tertullian (l) Praescr. c. 31. , Irenaeus (m) l. 3. c. 3. Optatus (n) l. 2. count. Parmen. , Epiphanius (o) Haeres. 27. , S. Augustine (p) Epist. 165. being urged by Heretics, did fly, as unto the head, deriving Scriptures, Creeds, and all other Ecclesiastical traditions from them. Wherefore I must think that many sick and sorry feathers were in that Minister's head that caused you to call them, rather Grecian then Roman Plumes, though so light a word as Plumes, applied to so grave matters as Scriptures, Creeds and councils, doth savour of the levity of your phrase. 16. This levity you show in the praises you give to the Church, no less then in the reproaches. Thus you preach, Who is he, say (q) Lett. p. 67. you, that saith not of the true Church with Augustine: Non parva Ecclesiae auctoritas; well doth her Modesty, well doth her fidelity deserve honourable esteem; she taketh not upon her to control the holy Scripture her Mother, from whom she drew her first breath, she openeth not her mouth, till her mother hath delivered her mind, she cometh not of her own head with any sleeveless arrant. Thus you discourse, describing the Spouse of Christ and Mother of Christians, as a mannerly young Maid brought up in Luther's school. You demand, who is he that doth not say with S. Augustine, Great is the authority of the Church? And yet you yourself are the Man, who call that Authority of the Church which S. Augustine in that very sentence reverenceth as great and venerable, idle and sleeveless, like the Butcher that called for his knife he had in his mouth. These are S. Augustine's words, (r) De cura pro mortuis. c. 1. We read in the Books of Maccabees, that Sacrifice was offered for the dead, but if this were no where read in the old Scriptures, yet there is no small authority of the universal Church, which shineth in this custom. Behold S. Augustine calleth Doctrines delivered by the Church without express Scripture, great & shining, which you revile, and contemn. 17. Thus you contradict the saying of S. Augustine, whilst you would seem to applaud it: yet is not this contradiction so witless, as is your Assertion impious, that Doctrines and Decrees of the Church not delivered in Scriptures are sleeveless, the perpetual virginity of the B. Mother after her sacred birth of the Son of God, you seem so to believe, that you would stop your ears against any that should dispute thereof (s) Lett. p. 39 : but where is this written in Scripture, what is it, but a perpetual tradition of God's Church? S. Augustine saith (t) de Baptism. count Donatist. l. 2. c. 7. , that it cannot be clearly proved out of Scripture, that Heretics returning to the Church should not be rebaptized, & yet the Church hath forbidden the same Shall we term this prohibition sleeveless? That these and these books be Canonical, and the other Apocryphal, where it is taught in Scripture? Now he doth not see that Scriptures are the chiefest points of our Faith, containing the fountain, and as it were principles of faith. Do but read your learned Author Hierome Zanchius, who will give a newer tune, then that your Minister piped unto you. That Author famous in your Congregations teacheth (u) Tom. 4. l. 1. de lege Dei. that divers unwritten traditions concerning doctrine and manners are in the Church, which are not only profitable (x) Non solum utiles Ecclesiae sed ferè necessariae. saith he, but in a manner necessary, which have their beginning from the holy Ghost, which we must reverence and obey, else we contemn the Authority of the Church, which is a thing (saith he) very displeasing unto God: how then do you preach that the Church never openeth her mouth till Mother Scripture have delivered her mind? 18. I confess that this your Author goeth a step backward, saying that these unwriten traditions are not of equal authority with the written word, (z) Paris authoritatis non sunt cum verbo in sacris literis revelato. but therein he doth clearly contradict himself. For the Canon of the Scripture being as he confesseth, an unwritten tradition, how can any thing contained in Scripture, be more certain than some unwritten traditions are? Can any man be more certain of a truth proved out of Scripture, than he is, that his proofs are indeed Scripture? One may see, this doth imply in terms. Wherefore great cause had your Doctor Field (a) Of the Church p. 238. to grant that Papists have good reason to equal their Traditions to the written word, if they can prove any such unwritten verities: and his proof is pregnant, because not the writing giveth things their authority, but the worth and credit of him that delivereth them, though by word and lively voice alone. 19 Now put these two sayings of your two Doctors together, and make an argument for traditions: let Doctor Field give the Mayor, unwritten verities, can they be proved, are equal to the written word, let Zanchius add the Minor, but divers unwritten verities and traditions, profitable and in a manner necessary for the Church, both about faith & manners, may be proved. What doth follow, but that some unwritten verities and traditions are found, which have equal authority with divine Scripture? Is not this argument in good form? Are not the premises thereof certain, which even our enemies do grant? May traditions be termed sleeveless, for which your own Tailors or Doctors make such glorious wings, that thereby they fly up to the throne of divine Truth. 20. But I will not bestow on your suggesting Minister a sleeveles garment, but rather grant him a Coat with four sleeves for his Metaphor, by which he maketh the Church, Scriptures daughter: many Churches as S. Irenaeus writeth (b) l. 3. c. 4. in his time had never read any word of Scripture, yet did they flourish by keeping the Tradition of Christian doctrine in their hearts. Was the Scripture the Mother of these Churches? I see not which way you will draw their pedigree from the Scripture, except in your next writings, you make Scripture Grandmother, who hath been yet scarce 3. years a Mother. The Church of the old Testament, was some thousand years (c) 2000 years from Adam unto Moses. before Scripture, the Church of the New did flourish many years before any Gospel was written; who ever saw or heard a daughter borne before the mother. A Son before the mother I have heard of, yet he as Man, according to which Nature he was her Son, was not before her So that the Church, Child of Scripture, a daughter before the Mother is the Pallas of your brain, which some Vulcan's sharp hatchet, hath helped you to be delivered of. And thus much of your, no less ridiculous than impious jests, against the authority of the Church. 21. After your light skirmish with Scoffs, followeth a grave battery of the Church's custom, to pray for souls in Purgatory with the Canon of Scriptures (d) Lett. a pag. 80. usque ad 93. , by which you will prove her doctrine in this point to be a Satanical figment, disgraceful unto the great mercy of God, evacuating the Cross of Christ. The places by you alleged are many, but either so trivial and known, together with the Catholics answers, or else so ridiculously applied, wrung & wrested to your purpose, that their very sound is able to break a learned man's head, and make him scratch where it doth not itch, for want of an answer. To give some few examples: What (say you: (e) pag. 86 shall not Hell gates prevail against us, and shall purgatories muddy wall hedge us in? Hath the soul of Christ gone down into the nethermost Hell, & yet made no passage through the suburbs of Hell? Hath he bound the strong Man that he should not harm us, and will he now torment us himself? or set we know not whom to do it? Thus you. Who will not wonder, that purgatories walls fall not to the ground, with the storm of these your windy interogations? shall I make the Logical Analysis of your Rhetorical Arguments? They be three Ethymen I think. The first, the gates of hell shall not pravaile against the Church; ergo there is no Purgatory. The second, the soul of Christ went down to the nethermost Hell, ergo, no Purgatory can be found. The third, Christ bound the strong Man, and took his fortress, ergo, Purgatory must vanish away. 22. I think Aristotle would be graveled in these arguments to find the Medium to join your extremes together. For what force hath Christ's binding the strong Man, that he may not harm his children, to prove that God may not chastise them for their sins either by himself, or another in this world, or in the next as he pleaseth, when they have done amiss, and committed lesser offences, that deserve his lighter displeasure? When you say, that Hell gates shall not prevail against us, it is hard to guess, who those your usses are. Perhaps you mean the Elect▪ & Predestinate, among whom you number yourself. Let it be so. Can you deny but many of your Predestinate and Elect are, for robbing and stealing, and other such crimes locked up in London Goals? what shall not Hellgate prevail against them, and shall the wall of a prison mue them up? hath the soul of Christ gone down into the nethermost Hell, and made no passage through New-gates Limbo, where sometimes your elect are kept? Hath he bound the strong man, that he should not harm, and shall now a hangman put them to death? You perceive I hope the vanity of your inferences. 23. Let us hear you preach again, and build a ladder for your elect, to pass without Purgatory into Heaven. They that die in the faith, say you (f) p. 100. have peace towards God, they that have peace towards God are justified by Christ, they that are justified by Christ, are free from the Law, and being free from the Law, quis accusabit? who shall lay any thing to their charge? Thus you dispute. Where I could lay both folly and falsehood to your charge, but seeing your Protestant faith freeth you from the Law, both of Reason & conscience, quis accusabit, who dareth accuse you, though you writ neither wise nor true word? I could cast your Elect into Hell from the first step of your ladder. For they that die in the faith have not peace towards God except their faith be joined with good works. S. john (g) Apoc. 14. giving the reason, why the Saints rest after life, saith, Opera enim illorum sequuntur illos, which you English, for their works follow them, even at the heels? But your Protestant faith is so light footed or light headed rather, to believe you shall be saved, & your charity so heavy heeled to do the good works by which men must be saved, that an eternity of torments may pass before your works overtake your faith. 24. I might also fling them down from the highest step of all, where you say they are free from the Law, if you understand it in Luther's sense (h) Tom. 1. Ep. Lat. ep. 3●. ad Philippun. , that though they commit whoredoms or murders a thousand times aday, they need not care, the blood of Christ freeth them from the law: doth not this doctrine together with the Author deserve to be fling into the lowest Hell? But if you understand freedom from the law in the Catholic sense, that the spirit of Christ maketh that yoke easy and the burden light, that in the spirit of love we may keep the law with great ease, as S. john saith (i) 1. joan. 5. , his commandemcnts are not hard, I dare say, your Protestants faith hath little of that spirit that dilateth the heart to run the way of God's precepts (k) Psalm. 118. that it will never be able to get up this ladder. And let them be indeed just, let them be Saints that keep the law, you object, that against them that doth clearly prove a Purgatory for them in the next life. Yea, say you, but they have some dross to be purged. Doubtless, Sir Edward, the justest man falleth seven times a day (l) prou. 24. , he that saith he hath no sin, light and venial (as S. Augustine expoundeth) is a liar (m) 1. joan. 1. : who can say that his heart is pure from vain & impertinent thoughts? His tongue clean from idle & unprofitable speech? His hands not defiled at least with omissions and sloth, and negligences in God's service? Do you see your just cannot be in this life without Dust. 25. But you answer, indeed S. Paul saith, haec fuistis, but he addeth, sed abluti estis, but you are washed, but you are sanctified, but you are justified in the name of the Lord jesus, and by the spirit of our God. This is indeed to allege Scriptures for your purpose. You speak of washing and cleansing, yet except you have washed away with wine from your tongue, this foolish not to say impious, abusing of God's word, I dare say, your lips still need to be purged, which you seldom wet (I fear) in the bath of tears and penance. Are you not skilful at Scriptures, that apply that sentence which was spoken of (o) 1. Cor. 6.11. , without which gross sins, as whoredom, theft, extorsion and the like, which the Corinthians before baptism committed, & by baptism were cleansed from them, to the daily venial offences, without which the just man doth not live? But faith is, say you (p) pag. 85. sperandarum rerum hypostasis, the ground of things to be hoped for from Christ, whereas we will have it thus, fides est ferendarum rerum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, the ground of things that are to be suffered by ourselves. Thus you. I perceive your Protestant faith is very weak, we must not lay any great burden on it, of things to be suffered by yourselves, less it break; but of things to be suffered by others, as much as we will: you can easily endure that others suffer, so you be well yourselves. I much fear that this your faith fainteth in the assured expectation of eternal punishments, for grievous sins, which cannot endure the belief of temporal pain for lesser offences. I do not now wonder you have rejected Fast, Pilgrimages, Disciplines, Hayrecloathes, Lying on the ground, rising in the night to pray and sing psalms to God, living in perpetual Chastity, wresling with the lusts of the flesh. No marvel, I say, though you reject these things; your faith is not a ground of penance, nor of any mortifications to be vndergon by yourselves. 26. Christ must suffer all for you, you will not be partners with him in his Passion, yet you will share with him in his comforts, you will not by your good will, have your finger ache for his love, nor taste the least drop of vinegar to purge your sinful humours, yet will you be as bold as any other, except his justice keep you back, to put your nose into the sweet cup of his Glory. But true faith is a ground not only of hope, but also of fear. As it teacheth us to expect a full reward, if we fulfil God's commandments, so likewise to be sure of heavy punishments if we contemn them. As Christ came down from Heaven to die for us on the Cross, so faith telleth us we must take up our cross, a small task of sorrow and penance, and march after him to Heaven▪ True faith is not an idle beholder either of Heaven or Christ, but urgeth us to walk by good works towards the one, and by penance to feel some part of the passion of the other: yet is faith defined the ground of things to be hoped for, not of things to be suffered by us, or of things suffered by Christ, because Christ's sufferings for us and ours, in love and imatation of him, are but means to conduct us to God, the blessed end hope aimeth at, for hope and faith being Theological virtues, have for their objects, not Christ's sufferings, nor our own, but God alone; other things faith and hope doth regard only as they are pertinent to God. These answers Sir Edward I fear, are to grave both for your head and faith, neither will the one understand; nor the other believe my discourse, I labour in vain either to build penance or Purgatory on your faith, or to beat true learning and divinity into your head. 27. Yet you go forward, preaching very gravely to leave our bitter Purgations, and merrily drink away our sins, laying all on Christ's back. S. Paul say you (q) pag. 85. 86. thought it enough to know Christ, and him crucified, but he is a dullard in your School, that knoweth not Purgatory, and how he must there be purged. As if the Lord's Sommer-livery of everlasting life, were given us only with this proviso, that unless we play the Tailors ourselves, and make it up by our Purgations, it must never come to our backs. Thus you. Much do you fear I see, lest you be forced to play the Tailor with a discipline, to measure therewith your shoulders, and out of the broad-cloath of Christ's merits, with that sharp pair of shears to cut out a Purgatory garment for your own back. Yet I dare say, S. Paul was such a Tailor, who did not beat the air, but chastise his body (r) 1. Cor. ●. , still carried about with him the Mortification of jesus Christ (s) 2. Cor. 4 , that he had the Marks of his Passion in his flesh (t) Gal. 6. , to which participation with Christ in pain he may seem to exhort, when he bids us feel the same in ourselves, that we see in Christ jesus (u) Philip. 2. who subjecteth himself to the death of the Cross. What more frequent in this Blessed Apostle, then to exhort men to the love of the Cross, to suffer for Christ, to praying, fasting, giving of alms, and other Penitential works? 28. This is indeed to know, by experience, Christ crucified, whereof you talk in the air. I assure you that a discipline or a whipping for a quarter of an hour, would make you conceive more deeply of Christ's bitter Passion, better understand the great love he bore you in delivering you from eternal pain, give you to know your Saviour either fastened to the Pillar, or to the Cross more perfectly than ever did any Protestants Sermon you heard, or meditation you made in your life. Had you ever tasted any drop of the sweetness of Christ crucified, you would never have said, rejoicing in your competent Patrimony: (x) Counters. p. 65. Ditescit cui Christus dulcescit, He becometh rich, to whom Christ crucified becometh sweet Such sweetness did not S. Paul feel in Christ, by whose cross the world, to wit, riches & honour, were crucified (z) ad Galat. 6. , that is, were things most hateful to him. The sweetness of the Cross wrought otherwise in the blessed Apostles, who tasting thereof, left voluntarily, and gave all to the poor. Look upon the Primitive Saints (a) Antony, Hilarion, Benedict, & others. , you shall find as Christ became to them sweeter, so they became poorer. The delight they took in him, made them esteem worldly wealth as dung, placing their greatest treasure in wanting all things for him. 29. Many borne to greater fortunes of the world, than you are, voluntarily made themselves so poor that their only demeans was a wilderness, their Palace a hole under ground, their meat fasting, their attire contemptible, their music Prayer, their bed the bare ground, on which they did bathe their wasted bones, which life they did prefer before being Kings in this world, such was the sweetness they found in Christ crucified, such joy they had to feel in themselves some little portion of that pain they beheld in him. You shall hardly persuade me, Sir Edward, that these were dullards in the School of Christ & Piety, that you do more see into Christ crucified, and more sweetly taste his Passion than they did: they did not doubt, but the garment of glory out of the broad cloth of Christ's merits, was to be greater or lesser, according as they had more or less conformity with the crucified Son of God; neither did they believe that God gives it to us ready made to our own hands, as you say, but that those momentary & light sufferings work in us eternal weight of Glory. 30. These men understood aright, the place of the apocalypse, which you so much stand upon (b) Lett. pag. 87. , Blessed are those that die in our Lord, from henceforth saith the spirit, they shall rest from their labours (c) Apoc. 14.15. . In which sentence I wonder you living as you do can think to have any part; that promise belongeth to them, that never rest in the course of penance, that makes the same end together of their labours and their lives, whom death takes down from the Cross of voluntary afflictions. Martyrs in the first place are partakers of this promise, next after them Penitents, who endure, as S. Bernard saith, a martyrdom in perpetual victory of themselves, not so cruel in show as the other, but no less troublesome for length of time (d) Bern.▪ Serm. 27. in Cantica. . In which penal martyrdom, if you continue unto death in the true Catholic Church, I dare warrant you both from Hell and Purgatory, and grant you an immediate passage unto Heaven. For we teach not as you falsely charge us, that no hold can be taken on Heaven, without a Purgatory in the other life, and that, even S. Paul must be there purged, these are not our doctrines but your slanders. Those that die perfectly in Christ, shall pass without Purgatory unto Bliss, others who having Christ in the Foundation (d) 1. Cor. 3. , that is, his faith and charity in their hearts (e) Aug. l. 21. de Civit. c. 26. Amores terrenos non damnabiles. , do notwithstanding set their affections upon earthly things that allay the fervour of his love, die not perfectly in Christ, nor must expect to pass without Purgatory from idleness unto rest, from worldly pleasure unto heavenly joy. 31. O Sir Edward, how do I fear that you play not the Tailor aright, but cut out of Scripture, favourable sententes for yourself as this is, Blessed are those that die in our Lord, that do concern others whose lives do not so much suit with Dives daily banqueting as yours seemeth to do. Take heed you find not a garment of another suit set on your back when your soul shall departed, more naked of good deeds out of the body, than your body of garments unto the grave. God grant you be not clothed with these sentences, woe to you that laugh, for you shall weep (f) Luc. 6. , woe to you that were rich, that had in this world your comfort (g) Ibid. , woe unto you that had rich beds and lay wanton in soft down (h) Amos ●. , you deceive yourself if you think as you say (i) Let. p. 81 , that as in your Creation you did not help yourself, so likewise in your Redemption, As we lay no claim to have been any helper in the creation: so can not we part staks in our Redemption. you must not cooperate with God to the saving of yourself, that the whole work must be his. He that made thee without thyself, will not save thee without thyself, saith Blessed S. Augustine Look not to wear Christ's sommer-livery in life everlasting, who refuse to put one his winter-suite the freeze-coat of penance & mortification in your mortal state. This cloth of Christ's infinite merits suit not with your short charity, no more than a Giants attire can become a Pygmy: you must by your works and merits, God's grace concurring, 〈◊〉 out a suit for yourself; the Nuptial garment (k) Matth. 22. wherein you must appear at the day of judgement, else you shallbe cast out naked into utter darkness. Christ's blood purgeth all sins, in such as use the due means, to have the merit thereof, applied unto them, not in such as neglect the Sacraments he did appoint, or will not, together with preventing and helping grace, seek by penal works, to derive his blood upon their souls, for their perfect cleansing. 32. This penance you think needless; this joining our satisfactions with Christ's you esteem injurious to his Passion, and dispute in this manner. (l) Lett. p. 91. The souls in Purgatory, say you, are either punished for those sins which Christ's blood hath wholly purged, or for those which he hath not wholly purged. If for those, which Christ hath wholly purged, then there must needs be injustice in God, to imprison them whose debts are fully discharged; if for sins, that he hath not wholly purged, than it followeth, either that he is not the Lamb, that taketh away the sins of the world, or that man's satisfaction must go hand in hand with Christ's merits. Thus you do butt against Purgatories walls with your horned arguments, which if it have any force against Purgatory, will also break open the gates of Hell, that the damned may come out. For, for what sins are those wretches punished? For what debts are they kept in prison? Doubtless for those sins and debts, for which Christ did offer his precious blood. What? Was not that a sufficient Redemption for the sins of the world? Yes without question. Is God then unjust to imprison them in that dark dungeon for ever, for those sins Christ paid a full and rigorous ranson? Nor if God be unjust, to whom doth he injury herein? Not to the sinner, who doth suffer no more than he doth deserve, neither can he challenge to himself Pardon by any title of justice. Neither is there any wrong done unto Christ. Though his precious death doth deserve the ranson of millions of worlds, yet as the Philosopher saith, volenti non fit iniuria, Injustice can not be done to one, in a thing which he is willing unto. 33. Now it is the will of Christ that such as will not believe in him, or not receive the Sacrament of Baptism, be not pardoned but punished for ever. If any sin after Baptism, his pleasure is, that no pardon or remission be given, except he yield humbly and penitently to confess his sins: if any refuse to obey so reasonable a law, what wrong is done to Christ if such pride be sent to Hell? The wicked are condemned, not against his will, but by his order, not out of defect of his merits, but out of their stubbornness & malice. It is also Christ's holy will, that in sins committed after Baptism, the whole guilt of pain be not ever forgiven, but sometimes he reserveth a convenient task of temporal pain, according to the measure his divine wisdom thinketh best. For which we must endeavour to satisfy by fasting, praying, or other voluntary afflictions, or else with a patiented acceptance of such crosses as shall be sent by the hand of God. 34. This Doctrine strikes you to the heart. You bring two principles you were taught in logic against it. First the cause, say you, taken away, the effect ceaseth: punishment is the effect of sin, ergo, when sin is remitted, punishments must needs cease. This your logic if we yield unto it, will beat out our eyes, and force us to deny even, what we daily see and feel, to wit, that punishments and penalties may remain, though the sin be forgiven. What are death, hunger, thirst, and other miseries of this life, but effects of original sin? Is not that▪ sin forgiven unto Christians in baptism? yet those that are baptised and borne anew in Christ endure the former penalties and punishments of that sin though the same be pardoned. God pardoned David's Sin, (m) 2. Reg. 12. Dominus transtulit à te peccatum tuum, God hath taken thy sin from thee, but did all temporal punishment cease together with the sin? No. The sin was remitted with a, But thou shalt endure these an● these dreadful afflictions, because thou hast made the name of God to be blasphemed. 35. I will not stand to confirm this truth out of Scriptures, nor out of Fathers, only because you stand upon Athanasius, whom you call your Arbitrator, (n) Lett. pag. 43. and say, that he will not afford us one syllable to save our lives, your ignorance shall receive doom by his sentence, even in that very Treatise. Thus he writeth, There is great difference (*) De verbis Christi, Si quis dixerit verbum etc. (saith he) betwixt penance and baptism, he that repenteth ceaseth to sin, but still retaineth the scars of his wound, but he that is baptised, putteth of the old man, is then renewed from heaven, and as it were borne again, by the spirit of grace. Do you see Sir, how many syllables this Fathers dareth us to know the difference between baptism, and penance for sins committed after baptism? what are those scars which still remain after penance, but not after baptism? You cannot say they are bad inclinations & customs, for those remain after baptism; nor the miseries & penalties of this mortal life, for from the necessity & enduring such crosses baptism doth not exempt. I see not what else can be imagined to remain after penance, and not after baptism, besides the guilt of temporal pain, which we must willingly undergo, to satisfy for the sins after baptism▪ which scars & wounds if we heal not in this life by plasters of penance, they must be seared in the next by Purgatory fire. 36. Now your logical Axiom against this verity, that the effect ceaseth, the cause being taken away, who doth not see that it faileth in a thousand examples? The Son is an effect of the Father, can not he live though his Father be dead? the fire causeth heat, yet we see that heat doth often remain long time after the fire is put out. The truth is, that Principle is only true, quando Effectus pendet à Causa in esse & conseruari: when not only the first being of the effect dependeth on the cause, but also the conservation thereof, as the light of the Sun, which the Sun doth not only bring forth, but also conserve, vanisheth away together with the same. Punishment is the effect of sin, nothing but sin could produce that guilt in our soul, yet when it is once in the soul, the conservation dependeth on the will of God. It cannot cease, but when, and in what manner he will have it cease, either remitting the whole guilt, as in Baptism, or else reserving some part of the penalty, as he doth often in the sins we commit after Baptism. Not that the merits of Christ be not sufficient alone without our penance and satisfaction, to do away both the eternal and temporal punishment, but for the other reasons his divine wisdom knoweth. 37. This wisdom you would prove to be folly, by another Axiom of your Logic. Frustra fit per plura (say you) (o) Lett. pag. 38. quod fieri potest per pauciora: It is vain to use many means, when fewer will suffice, the jordan of Christ's blood alone sufficeth to wash away the leprosy of Naaman, what need he be bathed in Abanak of his own penance? or in the Pharphar of Purgatory flames? Sir I must accuse either your memory or your Master, either he did not teach you that Principle right, or else since you have let fall some words thereof out of your mind, to wit, aequè bene, when the thing may be done by fewer means altogether as well, to multiply means is vain and idle: which two words wanting, your Principle is false. Christ might have redeemed the world, with one drop of his blood, was the rest therefore shed in vain? No, because it did serve to make his excessive love more manifest unto us. So likewise, though by the blood of Christ, sins may be forgiven fully and perfectly in Penance after Baptism, as well as in Baptism, yet the wisdom of God, hath thought it more for his own honour and for our profit, to enable us to do some part of this penance ourselves by the help of his grace. 38. First that we might more deeply conceive of the malice of sin, and God's hatred against it. Secondly, that by feeling some temporal smart, our gratitude towards Christ might increase, who delivered us freely from the eternal. Thirdly that we may more carefully for the time to come avoid sin, flying from the shadow thereof, as from an Adder (p) Quasi à facie colubri fuge peccatum. Eccl. 21. . Fourthly that by voluntary Penance we might more estrange ourselves, (q) Felix necessitas quae ad meliora compellit. from the dangerous pleasures of this world and alluring scent of the sinful flesh. Fiftly that this happy necessity of doing of Penance might force us to retyrednes, where God speaketh to the heart (r) Ducan in solitudinem & loquar ad cor. Osee. 2. . Sixtly that by this occasion we might try (what without trial can hardly be believed) the comforts that are found in a penitential life, which are so great, that S. Augustine out of his own exprience of both, saith, More pleasant be the tears of penance, than any recreation of plays (s) Dulciores sunt lachrimae poenitentium quàm gaudia theatrorum. August. in Confess. . Seventhly that to redeem our sins, we might more carefully supply the necessity of the poor, purchasing us friends by sinful Mammon (t) Luc. 36. , that when the soul flitteth from the body, they may receive her into the eternal Tabernacle. Finally and principally, that hedged in by fire, we might run with arms spread abroad to embrace Christ crucified, and seek to be like to the form by which we are saved, crucifiing our bodies with the concupiscences thereof (u) ad Galat. 5. , which is one of the principal things, which in gratitude he requires of us. 39 What S. Augustine said of Hell fire, under pain whereof God commandeth his love. (x) l. 1. confess. c. 5. Quid mihi es? Miserere ut loquar. Quid tibisum, ut amari te iubeas à me, & nisi faciam irascaris, & mineris ingentes miserias? Hei mihi: Paruáne est ipsa miseria, si non amem te? Lord what am I that thou shouldest command me to love, and threaten eternal punishment if I love thee not? Is it not misery enough of itself, not to love thee? the like might we say of Purgatory, which bindeth us to taste by imitation, more abundantly of Christ's sweet Cross, then else happily many would. Lord what are we, that thou wilt have us conformable to the figure of thy crucified Son? That thou dost force us with fire to taste of his sweetness? Can any greater felicity befall a man, than not to be like unto that heavenly Pattern? To live an idle and wanton limb of that body whose head is pierced with Thorns? (z) Non decet sub spinoso capite membrum esse delicatum. These meditations Sir Edward, were they as frequent in your mind, as are profane jests rife in your mouth, Penance, Satisfaction, and bearing part of Christ his passion to purge sin, would not seem so burdensome to your faith, neither would you think such endeavours injurious unto Christ's blood whence they spring and take their virtue, yea perchance you would prefer our Catholic Penance & Purgatory before your Protestant pleasant life and heaven on earth, whereof I should conceive greater hope, did not vain and worldly delights hold you back more strongly than the misapplied texts of Scripture you pretend. THE FIFTH CHAPTER. THE MIRACLES of the B. Virgin at Hall, and Sichem, AND OTHER CATHOLIC MIRACLES ARE PROVED Authentical, against the Profane jests of the Letter, and Countersnarle. And that they cannot be antichrist's Wonders. THE last Squadron of the four enemies your Letter mustreth against Purgatory, are profane jests, which savour of Irreligion. These run so fast from your pen, that either it preventeth your thoughts, or your thoughts be deeply tainted with that most deadly corruption. I will here allege an example or two thereof, which contain more Atheism than I hope you did perceive therein, when you let them pass to the print. You are very inquisitive to know (a) Lett. pag. 79, in what degree of elevation of the Pole Purgatory is seated. How many miles from the infernal Cape. Beda's ghost, say you, cometh somewhat near the mark in his Card, who placeth it under the earth, in the suburbs of Hell, yet Alcuinus may be believed as well, who peremptorily maintaineth, that it is situate in the Air. Hence you conclude, quod ubique est, nullibi est: it is in so many places, that indeed it is in no place. This is the assault or onset, by which you seek to beat Purgatory out of the world. But the Captain Maior of your argument repeated again in your (b) pa. 17. Countersnarle, to wit, qui ubique nullibi, who is every where is indeed no where, if it be true, is able to beat God into nothing, who cannot be conceived without immensity, or a being every where, if you believe not the royal Prophet, who could find no place, in heaven, or earth, or hell to lie hidden from his sight and presence, (c) Psal. 138. v. 6.7.8. perhaps you will credit your Poet, who singeth: iovis plena sunt omnia, Sea, Earth, Air, Heaven, all things are full of God. 2. But taking your Proposition in the best sense, to wit, that the thing might be justly thought, not to be, which learned men cannot tell certainly and determinately where it is, yet is the impiety thereof exceeding great. For do not Divines both catholics and Protestants disagree about the place of the soul after separation from the body? About the part of the world, wherein God showeth himself to his Saints? May one thence infer, quod ubique nullibi? That the soul after her divorcement from the body is in so many places, that she is indeed in no place? Do not learned Christians likewise dissent about the situation of Hell? Some say Devils and Men are punished in the Air, others under Earth? In so much as S. Augustine saith (d) Lib. 20. de Civit. c. 6. : In qua mundi part sit futurus infernus hominum, arbitror scire neminem, nisi fortè cui spiritus divinus ostendit. In what coast of the world Hell is placed, I think no mortal man can tell, except perchance the spirit of God hath revealed it to some? will any true Christian argue in your form? Hell is in so many places, that it is indeed no where? I think not. Neither would you bring the doubtfulness of Purgatories distance from the infernal Cape, as a reason to make away with it, did you not want either Religion in your heart or true divinity in your Cape. 3. Another example of profaneness and want of Religion, you give in your perpetual jesting at Miracles, which confirm any point of Religion, especially this of Purgatory, which Miracles you term (e) Lett. p. 40. 41. such grave Miracles, that it would make a horse break his halter to see them. And in the margin you say, yea Beauties devout Marc, which your wanton Hobby named only to beget a fool on her, thought you might better have turned him loose to Balaams' (f) Num. 22. prudent Ass, where perchance he might have learned this point of wisdom, that there is a God, whom even bruit beasts feel, and in their manner serve and adore, who is able when he pleaseth to make them bray more wisely than you do speak. 4. But no where do you show your profaneness more, then in scoffing at the miracles of our B. Lady of Hall, registered by Lipsius, which you deride in so rude a manner, as it may well seem, you did both read Lipsius his story and write your own letter (g) Lett. pag. 102. roasting crabs by the fire side. A Miracle concerning a Falconer, delivered from death, by her merciful intercession, Lipsius (h) c. 8. doth elegantly and religiously relate, which you or your Minister mar with reeling and tottering phrases. His Lord, say you, swore by no beggars, that he would make him look through a halter, if he found not the Falcon, within the compass of forty days. As the fellow was going to this gear, the Executioner being advanced, his eyes muffled, with hearty sighs, he implores that B. Lady's help. And mark you me now, the noise of the bells began to jingle in the air (a sweet melody you must think to a drooping heart) & he doubled his prayers to that Lady's Shrine, and behold that which is most strange, the Falcon came sousing out of the air, and without any lure, in the sight of all the standers by, did light upon his shoulder, who for her escape was now tied to a new perch. Here is a Miracle of the maker, say you, Tush, this is nothing to what that Lady hath done. She hath driven out evil spirits, asswadged terrible tempests, fetched a child that was found stark dead, with the heels upward in a muddy ditch. Another that was drowned, another that was strangled: nay a stil-borne child there days buried to rise again. I cannot stand to tell how she made john Swickius (an Heretic, that swore he would cut off her Pictures nose) lose the best nose in his face: Nor how Philip Clwius filled his chains asunder with an oxe-bone. Thus you play the Summist of Lipsius. 5. Yet I wonder you omitted a story which followed in the same Chapter (h) c. 7. p. 24. with john Swickius, to wit, about another Protestant swaggerer john Rysselman, who reviling that B. Lady, swearing that he would take her Town & burn her Picture publicly in Brussels, strooken with a bullet, lost the best tongue in his head, the best chin in his face, and not long after yielded up (though a very bad one) yet the best soul in his body. You perhaps were scared with this stroke, fearing to lose the instrument, wherewith you love both to bibble and babble. You dare play with that B. ladies nose, not fearing so much the loss of your own, whereof you have not such use, since you cast away your Tobacco-pipe. Yet I much doubt, whether the forenamed Risselman, or that famous Nestorius an Arch-enemy of God's Mother, which both miraculously lost their tongues (i) evagr. l. 1. c. 7. Nicephor. l. 14. c. 26. for blasphemy against her, did more deserve that penal forfeiture should be inflicted upon them, than you have done, who stick not to term the glorious Queen of Angels, whose Miracles Lipsius doth profess to write, the Mother of God, as her Picture with the King of the world in her arms doth witness, a kind wench, good at a dead lift (k) Lett. pag. 100 which soundeth of a more foul blasphemy, than ever any Heretic before dreamt of. 6. Who that is sober, will not think that I did honour you much in saying, the matter of your Letter was not your own, shifting off these blasphemies rather to your Minister's pen, which you seem to confess, I might have done to your Minstrels Pipe (l) Counters. p. 61. . And how could I better have excused his impiety, then thinking he did suggest unto you those conceits, roasting crabs by the fire side, making those blasphemies, but the smokes of Tobacco, or fumes of Bacchus, giving him the best excuse, a soldier, reviling Pyrrhus, could find, by which he obtained his pardon, confessing, that had he taken in more wine, he might have spoken worse. Merciful Lord in what a drunken age do we live, that such foul blasphemies against God's Mother, may pass to the Print! that such witnessed testimonies of Gods infinite power (which had they been done in Tyrus and Sidon, would perhaps have joined them to have done penance in sakcloath) may be blasphemed, derided, and rejected, even in Print, as lewd lies, incredible falsehood (m) Counters. p. 38▪ without any syllable of proof or reason in the world, but only because they list not to believe them. 7. But to the end that Purgatory may get the conquest also of this your profaneness, and purge you of this damnable humour, if it may be; I will seek to show briefly two things. First the credit of the foresaid Histories you deride as fables. Secondly how wicked your Masters are, that granting the stories, make the Miracles to be the devils words I will present you with a most medicinable herb, which may seem like the herb called our Lady's gloves. These Miracles adorn her v●rginall hands, signs they are of her wedding to the eternal King, and of her being crowned Queen of Heaven and Earth. Which gloves of our Lady may serve also to defend the memory of deceased Lipsius, whom you revile, (n) pa. 31. who like the Swan, whose dying notes are sweetest, crowned his famous writings with a history of her miraculous stories, and hung up before her Altar his renowned (o) c. 36. pag. 80. pen, the wing of his wit, the flight whereof made him admirable in this age. — Baccare frontem Cingite, ne Vati noceat mala lingua beàto. Our Lady's Gloves about his forehead wreath, That no foul mouth dare on this Author breath. 8. Among many devices, the enemy of mankind hath set abroach, in this age, to infect the world with Irreligion and Atheism, none seemeth to me, more potent than the denial of Miracles, together with those shifts, which heresy hath invented, to discard those both of ancient and fresh memory, which please not their taste: she hath taught profane and impious wits to call in question former Miracles, though never so famously reported and written by most grave authors: she bids them not believe the wonders which in these days God doth work above the course of Nature; to shut their eyes against the (p) Clausis oculis negare factum esse quod nolunt. Hier. Dialog. contra jovin. c. 17. light, and stoutly to deny what they list not to believe. And when the light is so great that even the blind see it, rather than yield due glory to God, she giveth to the Devil power to work true wonders, which things shallbe made clear by the ensuing discourse. 9 As no age since the Creation hath been without profane fellows, prone to deny God's providence over mankind, to jest and scoff at his servants, so likewise the same providence hath not permitted any age (q) See jodocus Coccius Tom. 1. art. vlt. And Prot. apology tract. 2. c 3. sect. 7. subd 3. 4. 5. to pass without Miracles and marks of his power, keeping the impious in awe by punishments, miraculously inflicted upon their mates, and comforting his true worshippers, with extraordinary favours and benefits bestowed on them above nature's reach. And though such curbs of the profaneness of the one, and spurs of piety unto the other, never failed as I said, yet doth his divine wisdom dispense them in Number, Weight and Measure, that neither Scarcity breed Infidelity, nor Multitude take away Necessity of a constant faith. That both the wicked may enjoy the freedom of their Nature, with due fear of their author, and the just have sufficient comfort in misery, with no loss of their merit. Should God still punish the wicked as they offend, their liberty would be in a manner extinct; should God still miraculously help his distressed servants, the constancy of their faith, would want scope to deserve glorious rewards. 10. Now in what age, since the coming of Christ, hath either piety more needed a spur, or impiety a curb, then in this we live in? The wolf is said (r) Bartholom. Anglicus. l. 17. , to be so stiff-necked and greedy of his prey, that he never looketh back, but when thunderclaps from heaven affright him. When did such a troop of stiff-necked wolves, void of conscience and fear of God, range so uncontrouledly over the Christian world, as now they do, though in the clothing of sheep, vested with the name of Christians? Why then should we bind the hands of God, that he may not send down Miracles upon the world, which doth so need them? That he may not scar ravenous wolves with thunderbolts from heaven in these days, as well as in former ages? Strike terror into their hearts, causing them to look back, and consider their wicked courses, ne fortè sit Deus, lest perchance there be a God, whose justice followeth them at the heels, ready to strike them with a dreadful death when they least imagine? The stifest-necked wolves, the profanest heretics, when they hear the Miracles done in the Church so great and so witnessed, as those we stand upon are, I make no doubt, but sometimes they tremble, and though they set a good face on the matter, yet their hearts pant in their breasts. 11. These Sir Edward perchance may be the Melancholy fits, that Lipsius his story, caused in your heart, which to drive away, you read his book roasting crabs, by the fire side, with a pipe of Tobacco in your hand, still calling for more wine, till your sobriety being wholly spent, you break forth into the former ridiculous Narration of Miracles, which sobriety itself, say you, would smile to see Lipsius so seriously tell. I would wish, Sir, when your smiling sobriety hath gotten a more stayed countenance, you would in sober sadness set down, what conditions or witnesses are required to make a history credible? Which of the conditions do fail in Lipsius' relations? In what other histories they are found, if they want in his? 12. Lipsius doth (s) Praefat. ad Lectorem. Acta & Regesta legimus; ex ij● selegimus quae dignissima videbantur protest, that he read the gests and records, out of which he chose those which he judged most worthy of the print, will not men, saith he, believe these things, done in the sight of many, confirmed by sworn witnesses, oftentimes by the Magistrates seals, and that which is chiefest, such stories as our religious Ancestors recorded, before this doctrine, which contemneth the worship of Saints, was sprung up. If they will not take my word, let them send and inquire that they may believe. They will find more than I have written. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. And though they be (to speak with Plato) as hard as horn, yet they will become soft and yield, strooken with the majesty of Miracles, which, as S. Augustine saith, are introductions unto faith. But if any man, after such inquiry, be not moved to believe such credible histories, I may apply that unto him of Homer, Thou hast ears to hear, that wants both wit & shame. And in his other Treatise of the Miracles of Sichem, he doth allege yet more authentical witnesses, to prove the credibility of his relations, protesting that he wrote relations most diligently sifted and inquired into, things done (t) Virgo Aspric. c. ● In oculis & uribusa omnium nostrum gesta, concursu, plausu, fructu gentium celebratae. , saith he, in the eyes and ears of us all, famous, not by report only, but by the concourse and applause of Countries, by help and redress of miserable multitudes, that found favour in that sacred Chapel, what certainty can there be in human things, if these histories be not certain? thus he. 13 If bare denial without proof, stubborn incredulity without reason, profane jesting without sobriety, may make histories witnessed by the consent of learned, judicious, and pious Nations; what place will be left for human history, or divine faith or religious piety in human kind? Have not heathens in former times, may they not at this present, overthrow the credit of the Miracles of Christ by these engines? What can be said within the compass of human credibility for the certainty of those stories, wherein Christianity is grounded, which may not most clearly be proved in defence of these? That these were done openly, that whole multitudes did behold them? so were these. That many times those were wrought, his enemies being present? the like did happen in many of these Miracles, which the enemies of the Church did see with their eyes, and sometimes feel in their bodies. That those were written with such circumstances, naming the time, the persons, the places and other particularities, that it had been most easy for Christ's enemies, who then lived to have controlled such miracles had they been false? with the like particularities doth Lipsius' report the Miracles of our Lady, that if they were feigned, our adversaries might have easily convinced them of falsehood, which they never did, nor will ever be able to do. 14. The story of john Swickius, who lost his best Nose, could any falsehood be more conspicuous, if he still kept a good nose on his face? Lipsius telleth (u) Virg. Hall. c. 7. the year of our Lord when the same did hap, not thirty three years since, within your remembrance, the place where he lived in brussels, Soldier under Captain Oliver Temple, famous for his Military skill, who did twice in vain assault the Town of Hall: that story was so known, that this Swickius was often derided by his fellows, who in merriment would send him to our Lady of Hall for his nose. How easy would it be to trace the steps of this story, and find the falsehood thereof, were it a fable? So that this jesting at Miracles done in our Church so credibly reported, overthroweth the bulwark of human authority, which Christianity doth presuppose, and openeth a wide gap for Atheism and Infidelity to enter, and trample under feet the Miracles of Christ and mysteries of our faith. 15. And that our adversaries either Infidelity or impudence, or folly in this point, may the better appear, consider I pray you, that by this dealing, they so crack the credit of all human relations, that they have left no means to themselves to make any history, they can tell, credible, as I will seek to make plain unto you by a late example. Your friend M. Crashaw hath lately written or turned into English, Printed anno 1613. the life of Galeasius Marquis of Vico, whom he would feign canonize for a great Saint of your Gospel, which Treatise came to my hands together with yours. There I find the poor Bachelor (x) In his second Epistle dedicatory. much vexed to answer an objection, which we might make, requiring a reason, why that story may be thought of more credit than ours, & that it is not a feigned thing, devised by yourselves, to allure and entice the people's mind, and to set a flourish on your Religion, with which kind of dealing you perpetually charge the stories of our Church. I answer first in general (saith he) far be it from us and our religion to use such means, either for ourselves or against our adversaries. No, we are content the Church of Rome have the glory of that garland. Popery being a sandy, and a shaken, a rotten, and tottering building, needs such props to underset it, but truth dare show her face and fear no colours: thus he. 16. Is not this wisely and valiantly spoken? You say (z) Counters. p. 9 , that he hath strong powders in store, to batter my Pinnace, which I believe and think they are such powders, as smoke, and make an empty noise, fearful to the simple, ridiculous to the learned. Neither do I understand, what he meaneth to say, that truth fears no colours. Perchance the silly Bachelor would say, needs no colours, content with the show of her native beauty, which we confess to be most certain of our Catholic truth, not sandy, but grounded on the (a) Tues Petrus & super hanc petram etc. Matt. 16. Rock, never shaken, but against which all heretics rushing have been broken, not rotten though ancient, yet never decaying, the truth of God ever remaining. Finally not tottering but most constant and not to be moved, which her strength, none more than her enemies feel. Nulli magis Petrae durities quàm ferientibus nota est, this Bachelor promiseth (b) In his first Epist. dedicatory. large volumes to stop the mouths of wickedness. But if his discourse be no more substantial than this is, I see not what better use the learned can make of his book, then to stop the mouths of mustard-potts. 17. This in general, but for the particular, saith he, I answer, cunning liars, as many monks were, framed their tales of men that lived long ago, and places a far off, that so the reports might not so easily be brought to trial: but in this case, it is far otherwise, the circumstances are notorious, the persons and places famousely known, Vicum, Naples, Italy, Geneva are places well known, Calantonius his Father, Charles the fift his Lord & master, Pope Paul the fourth his uncle, are persons well known. Examine either persons or places, and spare none, truth seeks no corners. Thus M. Crashaw discourseth for the history of his wiving (c) He married a second wife his first being alive. Saint, which we likewise use for the defence of the Miracles of the Virgin Mother. The places and persons named, in most of Lipsius his stories are famous, Flanders, Brussels, Louvain, let them examine persons and places, we desire no favour, truth seeks no corners: for example, the famous Miracle of john Clement (d) Lip. D. V Sichem c. 45. , that he was lame from his Nativity, and of a monstrous composition of body, his thighs and feet contracted, and turned towards the forepart of his breast, so as his knees did grow and stick thereto, his body was round, or in a manner spherical, unfit to stand, lie, or walk, this the whole City of Brussels can witness. Being carried to our Blessed Ladies Chapel at Sichem in a wagon, and having confessed his sins, and received the Blessed Sacrament, he did in the end, find his contracted and bound feet to be loosed and stretched forth with such strength, that his doublet that stayed them was broken in pieces, so as presently he stood on his feet himself, the beholders being amazed thereat. These things were seen to whole troops both at Louvain and Brussels, which knew him when he was lame, and who did not run (saith Lipsius') to feed his eyes with the sight of so great a wonder? I heard principal Physicians (saith he) and those not rash, nor ready to believe Miracles, affirm that this was indeed the strength and hand of God. Thus Lipsius. 18. Behold Sir Edward, a Miracle. Can you say of the Maker? you cannot with any truth, except you mean the maker of mankind, who by the Intercession of his Mother, reform this monstrous error of nature, Examine places and persons, disprove the story who can, we crave no sparing, neither is the time so far passed, scarce ten years since, it may be soon examined. I have heard that those potent, pious, and prudent Princes, whom you so commend, (e) Lett. pag. 105. did show this miraculous creature and monument of God's infinite power and goodness, to that noble parsonage (f) The Earl of Hart-ford you waited on in his Embassage, assuring him upon their knowledge, who knew the party both before and after the cure, that the Miracle was most undoubted, at which sight it is very probable you were present. This may be the cause that you scoff at our Lady of Hall, not daring to meddle with Sichem, the remembrance of which place could afford you small comfort to drive away your melancholy fits. The Miracles growing from that tree, sweet repast to a religious mind, are sour Crabs to an Atheistical taste, which no fire can make soft, nor any sack and sugar sweet. So that notwithstanding your jests and scoffs, I may conclude, that the Miracles of our B. Lady, written by Lipsius, are as undoubted as any histories, which in the compass of human certainty can be. 19 Neither can I wonder enough at the miraculous impudency of your Ministers, who having accused such famous Miracles as ours are for false, dare set to sale their own toys and trifles, as most credible things. I will not serve you in the mold-eaten miracle of john nichols, (g) See the Discovery of john nicols & the acts & monuments of Fox. that a bird muted on a Catholics beard, who died by the sent thereof, A seely fellow that out of want of wit to save his life, by cutting of his beard, gave a sweet miracle to the Protestants Church. 20. joseph Hall a more mannerly Minister, brings you in a more fresh dish of meat, a miraculous tongue which he got in his travails in the low Countries. A Graphiere told him (h) Dec. 1. ex 5. that a certain heretic being condemned to be burned, went singing to the stake, for which the Magistrate caused his tongue to be cut out, and in punishment hereof, the Magistrates son that was borne afterwards, had his tongue hanging down upon his chin, like a Deer after long chase. This Miracle putteth so much tongue into the Minister, that he crieth out, go now Lipsius and write the history of thy Goddess, and confirm Superstition by strange events: judge you that have seen ever the Chapel, if Hall or Sichem have yielded out more memorable things. Thus he. How would these hens cackle, could they lay an egg worth the finding, that thus brag of a shell full of wind? First, he cannot tell of what Religion that Sectary was, whom he taketh up for his martyr. It is likely he was an Arian or Anabaptist, who are not wanting in these parts, and run as desperately to the stake, & sing as sweetly in the fire as any Protestant ever did. The wonder also doth not surpass the power of Nature, much less of the devil, whose delight is to work Miracles, that may disfigure and mishap men, in whom he hateth the image of God. But what is this story, were it true, to the Miracles Lipsius relateth of our Blessed Lady, surpassing all power of nature, not taken from a Graphyere whispering into a Minister's ear, but witnessed by the consent of Towns, Cities, Princes, and whole Countries? Wherefore though those children held out their tongues like calves, yet more calvish tongue was the Ministers, that having derided Lipsius' relations, as fables, could tell this tale as a credible story. 20. If you loathe john nichols dung, or cannot believe joseph Hall's tongue, john Fox brings you a dainty and rare dish, Cranmers' own heart, which in the fire, his whole body being consumed into ashes, was found whole and entire: which wonder seemeth to me the greater, in regard of the tenderness of that your Martyr's heart, more flexible the wax to any Religion which the Prince would have him bend unto. He changed with (i) See Act. and Monum. the life of Cram. King Henry, and again in King Edward's reign, and not many days before his death he recanted and subscribed to the Catholic Religion (k) Acts. ubi supra. for fear of Queen Mary, wherein he continued so long as he had hope to live, but when he saw his other treasons had shut the gates of the Queen's mercy against him, he went in a rage to the fire, which being to revenge his heresy, consumed his body which professed that crime, yet spared his heart, where it found neither heresy nor any Religion, besides an indifferency to all faiths. Wherefore I wonder that M. Francis Mason (l) Consec. of the Bishops. p. 73. in his new book would limb, or rather lime that relic with these verses: Ecce invicta fides cor inviolabile servat, Nec medijs flammis corda perire sinit. Cranmer amid the fiery flames his heart unscorht was found. For why? Behold undaunted faith, preserved it safe and sound. 22. But was that heart found perfect and whole in the fire? By whom I pray you? by Catholics? Why are they not named? By Protestants? Why did they not take it up? Did they fear to scorch their Protestant fingers in the ashes of that fire that spared a Protestant heart? If they took it up, what is become of it? Where is it kept? Who did ever see it in Queen Elizabeth's reign? Either their impudence is great, so constantly to relate a miracle, which none of them saw, or else their negligence was extreme, that have permitted such a monument of God's power, Miracle of their Gospel, and pledge of their faith to perish. I dare not urge M. Mason too far, lest he bring me the next time he writeth as authentical Records for the conservation of Cranmers' heart in Lambeth Chappel, as he hath printed now at last, when such are dead as might control them, which their importunity could never obtain in their life, for the ordinations of his Bishops in the same place. One thing Sir Edward let me warn you, though happily M. Mason might find out a true Register for that miraculous heart, yet be not over greedy to feed on it, lest perchance you meet with poison: you are not ignorant I think that Germanicus his heart was found whole & vnconsumed in the fire, as (m) In vita Caligulae. c. 1. Suetonius writeth, the cause whereof was through a certain poison his enemies had given him. Whether your Martyr, who being so ready to have changed his faith upon hope of life seemeth to have had a very weak faith of another life, besides this present, took poison to prevent the pain of fire, specially not thinking to have gone so soon to the stake (n) Mason ubi supra. , I will not define. Only this I say, it is not wisdom for any man's faith to feed over hastily upon so dangerous a dish of meat. 23. This Miracle you see is great, yet M. Crashaw in his late history of his S. Marquis of Vico hath a Miracle of more esteem, to wit two Maids not burned nor scorched in a great fire. For he telleth us, how this Neapolitan living in Genua, not to be at the charges of a man, kept only two maidservants in the house, for his daily service and attendance, who yet remained still maids, though the Marquis did so extremely burn, that he could not be kept back from taking a new wife before his former (o) Life of Gal. c. 16. were dead. Your holy Caluin did tell him of great scandal that thereby might accrue to your Gospel, how the wicked would laugh their wiving Religion to scorn. But the Gentleman (saith M. Crashaw) replied, that the case was with him so, that he could not abstain, and participated with Reverend Caluin a secret reason for which he affirmed, he had a necessity to marry. This notwithstanding you must believe that fire did abstain from scorching of flax, which so many years together did domestically converse with him. This is the greatest miracle your gospel did ever beget, greater than the not burning of Cranmers' heart in material fire, yet a man may know Vicum, Naples, Italy, Genua, and search there long enough, before he find the certainty thereof. Caluin would perchance say most of this matter, to whom he participated those secret reasons; but because they were secrets, we will not sift into them, so that I am content M. Crashaw take up this privy Miracle of his Italian Professor for his privy Protestants in Italy. 24. I think Sir you do see that your writers cannot be well excused from impudence, who with the same breath wherewith they explode our witnessed histories vent their own tales, as things deserving belief. You had reason to say (p) Lett. pag. 102. though presuming too much on your Minister's modesty you did err in saying, that you are not ashamed to confess that you have no other miracles than those which were wrought by Christ, the Prophets, and Apostles, which were, you say, seals of the very same truth you hold. Wherein you dance the ordinary galliard your Minister's pipe unto you, who still beg the question in hand, that yours is the same truth that Christ, & his Apostles taught. Which we prove cannot be, because you do not work Miracles, as Christ did, who saith, he that believeth in me shall do the works I do and greater (q) Io. 14.12. which words as your English translations on the bible (r) printed 1576. expound, signify, that the gift of working Miracles, goeth still with the true faith, and shineth for ever in the Church, which confessedly wanting in yours, you have no great cause to vaunt that yours is the Apostolical faith. 25. Some of your writers, seeing our Relations to be authentical, as none can be more, have not brazen faces to deny the stories, yet their heart and tongue is no less impious, not fearing to affirm that these Miracles, are Miracles of the Devil, and antichrist's lying wonders. Which fancy though I find it not in your book, yet I will seek to confute it, knowing it to be one of the false Notes your Ministers often sing unto you. Six arguments occur unto me, which show the vanity of that conceit, and how inexcusable Protestants are, who reject our Miracles upon this silly fancy. The first is, the uncertainty of the doctrine, that the Pope is Antichrist, which (s) Gabriel Powel. de Antichristo pag. 2. though some, who together with their Religion have lost their wits, do set down as an Article of your Protestant Creed, no less certain among you than that God is, yet many of your more learned Doctors do reject the same, as a fable. The most grave and judicious that hold it, urge it no further, then as a conjecture (t) His majesties premonitory Epist. pag. 106. . Now be you judge, whether one may with a safe conscience upon a fancy, or upon a confessed uncertain conjecture, deny the broad seal of God, despise his hand writing, which the eyes and all senses of the body testify to be his. A Subject that should condemn the Kings warrant or his command, under the broad seal what jury would acquit him upon the Plea, that he had a fancy or a conjecture that it was counterfeit? To give to the Devil the works that sense and reason judge to be Gods, is the most heinous sin that may be, which the jews did commit, (u) Athanas. tract. in illud, Si quis dixerit verbum. when they said of Christ, in Beelzebub the Prince of Devils doth he cast out Devils (x) Matth. 13. . A sin never to be pardoned in this world, nor in the next. Is it wisdom to venture to commit such a sin upon a conjecture? If conjectures might suffice, the pharisees could have alleged divers for their blasphemy against Christ. Reason teacheth that such smokes must vanish away at the shining of clear truth, that fearful surmises yield unto the evidence of sense: this than is the first reason to prove them inexcusable, that they have but a conjectural defence of so heinous a crime. 26. The second reason is, that Protestants have no more reason to condemn these as antichrist's wonders, than the Miracles reported by ancient Authors long before Antichrist appeared, according to their own account, for those ancient Miracles are thunderclapps that shake the foundations of your Gospel, no less than ours of this present age. Call to mind the points of our faith, you most impugn in your Letter, you shall find most famous Miracles to confirm them, recorded by most grave and learned Fathers. What Lipsius of Louvain did ever write wonders, either more for number or greater for quantity, done at the shrine of any Saint, than those that S. Augustine in his 22. book of the City of God, hath registered as most certainly wrought by the Relics of S. Stephen (x) Plurimi conficiendi sunt libri, nec tamen omnia colligi poterunt. l. 22. de Civit. c. 8. ? Read that book Sir, & I dare say, you will there find either Miracles that may convert your heart to some fear of God, or else matter for senseless infidelity, to drive a way melancholy fits with loud laughing. You may behold Histories as incredible to human reason, and yet no less seriously told by S. Augustine then those are of our B. Ladies in both her chapels which Lipsius doth recount 27. You cannot endure the adoration of the divine Sacrament, which you blasphemously call a (a) Lett. pag. 54. breaden Idol in a shavelings hand. S. Chrysostome writeth (b) lib. 6. de Sacerd. c. 4. Senem quendam admirabilem, cui revelationun mysteria multa divinitùs fuissent detecta, , that a certain venerable old man, to whom many mysteries were revealed,— told, that in the time of Sacrifice he once beheld a multitude of Angels, with shining garments, compassing the wonderful table round about, who with reverence in honour of him that lieth thereon, bowed their heads, as Soldiers do in presence of their King. And though these blessed spirits be not ever seen, yet the Majesty of him, that is daily sacrificed is such (c) Quod credere abundè licet, vel ex tanto illo Sacrificio quod tum peragitur. saith S. Chrysostome, that we may believe, they are in this humble manner continually present. Now Sir Edward you may send your Ministers to preach to these Papists, and bid them as you bid us very gravely, (d) Lett. pag. 106. leave their ducks and tucks and apish toys, and serve God in spirit and truth. 28. The sight of the bleeding wafer-cake at Brussels, seemeth to have made your ears glow (e) Lett. pag. 106. , but what stories of the like Miracles might you read, were you conversant in ancient Ecclesiastical histories? A Miracle done by S. Basil in this kind, to omit others, a grave (f) Cyrus' Theodorus Prodromus, who lived an. 440. in Epigra. D. Basil. Author, above twelve hundredth years ago wrote in verse, which one thus turned into English, Beholding bread & in the cup red wine, The jew did laugh at mysteries divine: Which when S. Basil saw, both kinds of food, Reached out, which strait turned into Flesh and Blood. Our Miracles, that concern the keeping of Christ's Image with honourable esteem, seemeth to you to confirm Idolatry: but what say you of that Miracle, which Eusebius reporteth (g) lib. 3. Hist. c. 14. of the Image of Christ erected by the woman that was cured of her flux, by the touch of his garment, under which a strange herb growing, as soon as it touched the hem of the garment of the Image, it had virtue to cure all diseases? No less wonderful, is the Miracle recorded by S. Athanasius (h) De passione Imaginis salvatoris in Berito. alleged by the 2. Conc. Nicen. act. 4. and by (i) l. 1 de gloria Mart. c. 22. Gregorius Turonensis of two Images of Christ, which upon violence offered by the jews unto them, did miraculously bleed. These and innumerable other most authentical Miracles, wrought and written for the confirmation of the chiefest points of our Catholic faith, before the supposed Antichrist was in the world, do manifestly confute the wicked blasphemy, by which you would make our Catholic Miracles to be his. 29. And hence is declared a third reason, that your spite against our Miracles, forceth your Doctors to join against ancient Christians, and Catholic Fathers, with Infidels and Heretics, and to deny and deride the same Miracles they did. Your Osiander saith (k) Cent. 4. p. 326. Diaboli fimulata fuga volverunt vulgi Superstitionem confirmare. that the devils vanishing away at the name of Christ, and sign of the Cross, made by julian, frighted by his sudden appearance in a fearful shape, was counterfeit, to bring in the superstitious worship of the same, as though it had force to drive away Devils, wherein he doth shake hands with julians' Magicians, who likewise would have it a voluntary, not forced flight, of that memorable Miracle of the buried corpse of the Martyr Babilas, and of the devils forced confession, that he could not give answer in his Idol, by reason of Babilas being so near, which S. Chrysostome (l) l. 4. count. Gentiles. so much urgeth against Infidels. The same Author (with whom your Centuristes join (m) Cent. 4. col. 1446. saith, (n) Cent. 4. p. 377. Responsun haud dubiè à Satana ideo datum, ut paulatim cultum Idololatri cum Reliquiarun in Ecclesiam inveheret. that it was an answer given by the Devil without doubt, to bring into the Church the idolatrous worship of Relics. 30. But what need I speak of particular Miracles in general of all the Miracles done at the Relics, & by the Intercession of Martyrs, which were so many, as Theodoret writeth (o) l. 8. adversus Graecoes. their Temples over the world, no less in the primitive Church then now, were full of tables & pictures of hands, feet, eyes, heads & other parts of the body, hung up, as tokens of miraculous cures obtained by the Martyr's intercessions. These Miracles Theodoret urgeth against Infidels, whereof S. Chrysostome saith (p) Sententiae nostrae abundè fidem faciunt quo tidiana quae à Martyribus eduntur Miracula. lib. 4. cont. Gentes. , that the Miracles done by Martyrs abundantly suffice to witness the truth of Christianity. Of those Miracles I say, M. Robert Abbot's (q) Demonstr. 1. Antichr. c. 11. pag. 223. Plané superstitiosum est, & non nisi spuma veteris Ecclesiae. blusheth not to write, that the primitive practice was superstitious, and those Miracles the froth of the ancient Church, of which, saith he, the Babylonian Venus was bred, that afterward broke forth into all manner of abominable fornication. Thus they reject the Miracles, by which Christianity was bred in men's hearts, many Countries converted to Christ, the Church of God enlarged over the Earth, which Church they must grant was a Venus, bred of foam and froth. What writing is intemperate, if this be sober? What can be blasphemy against the holy Ghost, if this be not? To assign the Miracles, by which the world was made Christian, to the Devil, making his foam and froth the seed of Christianity. 31. The fourth reason is the impiety of this devise, which I touched before. For this conceit doth much impair both the love of God in his servants, and his fear in his enemies, seeing neither the one may expect from him miraculous helps, nor the other dread extraordinary punishments. The Devil only in this age must rule the roast, and be thought the Author of all wonders. If God when Heretics blaspheme his Mother, and play with her nose, strike their tongues out of their heads, and their best noses from their faces, Heresy teacheth them to turn their hearts that want tongue, & their faces without noses against heaven, and call the Author of that miracle, Devil. So that if Atheists can keep themselves friends with the Devil, they need not by this doctrine greatly fear Gods miraculous power. Our adversaries themselves namely M. Crashaw (r) jesuits Gospel. , do confess, that such is the Atheism and profanes of men, that never since the planting of the Gospel, Miracles were more needful, might they be expected. Why may they not be expected, if they be so needful? is God's power or his love less towards mankind since Luther's preaching? If his providence never faileth his children in so weighty affair as marriage, as the same M. Crashaw (s) Life of Galeatius c. 21. saith, why should they think the same defective in working Miracles, so necessary to maintain Religion against profaneness? Why should God be bound, under pain of being thought Antichrist not to work Miracles? 32. Were this true, we might pardon the same M. Crashaw, for saying (t) jesuits Ghos. pag. 30. 31. that we always paint Christ in our Churches as a child, but the Virgin like a woman, and a commanding Mother: that we say, that all the Miracles be hers, as though he being a child could not, or in the presence of his Mother would not work Miracles. He might add with as great truth, that we say that he dare not, for she being a shrew, would rap him on the fingers, did he stretch out his hand to do any Miracle before her. But though these be senseless slanders, yet were your Protestant fancy, concerning Miracles, true, the B. Virgin might seem to have reason, to hold Christ's hands, from doing any Miracles, whilst he is a Child, lest you make him Antichrist when he cometh to be a man.. She is wise to work all the Miracles herself, whom her Sex may warrant from being thought the man of sin. Yet B. Virgin be not over bold with Miracles, lest they give us a Pope Mary to be Antichrist, as they have done a Pope joan. 33. But is it not a Miracle think you, that men endued with reason, should let such lewd lies pass to the Print? Do we never paint Christ as a perfect Man, redeeming the world upon the Cross, and judging the same by fire? Are not these pictures frequent in our Churches? And when Christ is represented in the Virgin's arms, she is painted not as a commanding, but as a Mother adoring her Son, that by her countenance one may see, that whilst her breasts gave him suck, her heart did offer him the frankincense of prayer as to her God. Do we not make the Miracles of our Church rather his than hers, done at her request, but by his power? Which Miracles she doth ask, not for her own honour, but for his, to establish in men's hearts, that faith (u) Miracula Martyres faciunt, vel potiùs illis orantibus Deus, ut fides illa proficiat, qua eos non Deos esse Nostros, sed unum Deum nobiscum habere credimus Aug. l. 22 de Civit. c. 10. which doth believe that not she but he is God, and she only honourable for his sake, and saved by his blood, holy by his grace, glorious by his mercy, powerful by his hand. Why should we not think, that the Devil doth hate this faith? How can any Christian think, that the Devils do Miracles to confirm so pious doctrine? 34. And this is my fifth Argument to prove our Miracles true, that they are beneficial both to the body and soul of men, which therefore without blasphemy may not be given from God to the Devil. Those wicked spirits do seek in their works to make themselves Mirabiles, non utiles, as S. Augustine saith, wonderful, not beneficial unto men: they desire to amaze and astonish rather than help and relieve men's senses. Such are Miracles, which Antichrist shall work, as making the picture of a beast speak, bringing down fire from heaven, feigning himself dead and rising again. For neither is the Devil so courteous towards mankind, that he will bestow benefits on their bodies, nor God so hard, as to let him entrap their souls by so strange illusions as multitudes of such Miraculous helps and benefits are. Now the Miracles of the B. Virgin and other, wherewith God doth daily adorn our Churches, are suitable to such as Christ wrought, and have still been done by Saints in all ages since, as casting out of Devils, healing of incurable diseases, delivering from dreadful dangers and the like, which either deform or afflict mankind, some punishments laid on blasphemers excepted, which are so few, as they may seem a drop or two of gall in a sea of honey, which is a sign, they proceed from a boundless ocean of goodness, through the sweet conduct of the intercession of his B. Mother. Yet the benefits, which by these Miracles come to men's souls are greater, when by them some are converted from heresy, others reclaimed from bad life, many persuaded to frequent Sacraments, to make sorrowful Confession of their sins, restore things unjustly taken, satisfy for wrongs offered, spend much time in prayer, to be bountiful to the poor, finally to give themselves to heroical exercise of Christian virtues. Which things with great joy Catholics do daily behold, and have cause therein to glorify God. 35. But a greater fruit reaped from our Miracles and a clearer sign that they are of God, is the Conversion of Infidels. Many Countries partly by these means, partly by the good life of our Religious Preachers of God's word, have been in this age, won to Christ to the increase of the Christian name. These Miracles have been so clear, & the fruit of them so manifest, that some learned Protestants (x) Phlip. Nicolai de Regno Christ. l. 1. pag. 312. 313. 314. jesuitae licèt Idolo latrae sint, tamen possunt per Nomen Christi magnas virtutes condere apud Indos. herein not unlike to the Magicians of Egypt acknowledged, both in the Miracles and conversion, the finger of God. But they add, that such Miracles (z) jesuitae in prima Indorum Conuersione sese Lutheranos sive Euamgelicos praebent. Ibid p. 53. , are done in the confirmation of the Protestant Gospel, which the jesuits preach in those Countries. I think sobriety will smile at the Protestants felicity in this point, who may sit by the fire side, or lie quiet in their warm beds whilst the jesuits go into barbarous Countries to work Miracles, to prove, forsooth their Gospel that Friars may marry Nuns, and be saved in idle life by sole faith. I should think it more probable that Luther in his night's conference with the Devil (a) De Missa Angulari. did convert and make him a friend unto Christ, that now he will be content to work Miracles to glorify and extol his name. 36. My sixth and last reason is the providence of God, most desirous of the salvation of mankind, not permitting them to be tempted above their power (b) 1. Cor. 10. . Much less will he lend his infinite power unto Satan to tempt (c) jacob. 1. Deus intentator malorum. men, that they may be damned. Some few toys and trifles God doth permit to try the constancy of his faithful, as were the Miracles the Donatists did brag of (q) Aug. de unit. Eccles. c. 16 , strange visions that their sacred Sisters saw sleeping, or dreamt of waking. Those which Antichrist shall work are greater, yet the vanity of such signs, a constant faith with competent diligence may easily discover: but the Catholic miracles are many, great, and most witnessed as hath been proved. Such I say they are, that our adversaries in the end are forced to grant, that they are true miracles done by Gods own hand, which no power under his oronipotency can work. 37. Now their last refuge is, that which your great Champion M. Whitaker betakes (e) Whitak. de Eccles. pag. 348. Non ignoro vera miracula, non nisi divina vi fieri posse himself unto, to wit, that true Mirarcles, which none but God can do, though known to be such (f) Ex neutro genere miraculorum sufficiens testimonium aut certum argumentum colligitur. , do not demonstrate the truth of religion. He giveth this desperate reason, to wit, (g) Constat Deum non modò veris sed & falsis Doctoribus vim tribuere huiusmodi Miracula faciendi, non tamen, quò confirmet eorum falsa dogmata, sed quo tentet eos, ad quos mittantur. that God doth give power to work true Miracles unto false teachers, not to confirm their false opinions, saith he, but to tempt those unto whom they are sent. Can any doctrine be more dreadful or harsh in a Christians ear then this? How can any man know that God doth not allow that doctrine, which false prophets say he doth allow, and show his broad seal for their saying? But this M. Whitaker cannot deny, but that Catholics at the day of judgement may have that plea, which a learned and ancient Father thought invincible, which he sets down for our comfort in these words (h) Rich. de S. Vict. l. 1. de Trinit. c. 2. Domine si error est, quod credimus, à te deceptisumus. : O Lord, if it be an error which we believe, we are deceived by thee, for thou hast confirmed these things to us, with such signs and wonders, which could not be done but by thee! Protestants will grant, that we are deceived by God, by the wonders & Miracles which our teachers said that he wrought, & worketh by them to confirm this truth: yet say they we must be damned. The best is, we firmly believe God is not Satan nor a tempter of men, much less will he work Miracles to deceive them, lest of all lend the Devil his omnipotency, to draw such as desire to serve and love him for ever to Hell. This is our comfort grounded upon an infinite goodness, which is so great, that we cannot envy you the mirth you take in reading our Miracles and roasting your crabs by the fire side, to drive away your melancholy fits. God send you greater comfort in the next world, and that you may not there eat sour crabs and worse meat (i) Caput aspidum suget. job. 20. with Infidels, deriding the Miracles of Christ, at that dreadful fire that hath no end. 38. Here I might end Purgatories Triumph over your Hell, but that in your Countersnarle you quarrel with me about the first conversion of the English Nation, unto the Christian religion, which I said in my Treatise, was performed by S. Gregory and those holy Monks he sent: you spend two Paragraphs (k) The 13. and 14. in confutation of what I said, which discourse you term the pulling of a Crow, (l) pag. 46. being indeed a heap of untruths, plucked out of M. Io. White of Eccles his book, a Minister not so white in name as black for his false dealing, as may partly appear by what shallbe discovered in the next Chapter, you having copied in a manner all you have written about this matter out of him (m) Way to the Church. digess. 49. , with little variety either in sense or words: where also Purgatory shallbe freed from the imputations of an heathenish superstition, & licentious doctrine you charge upon it, (n) Lett. pag. 79. and 42. seeing that in the confessed chief Patron thereof S. Gregory, it triumphed over the Paganism of our Nation, and brought them not only to the knowledge of the true God, but also to the profession of most holy life, as shallbe proved. THE SIXTH CHAPTER. THAT S. GREGORY THE Pretended greatest Patron of Purgatory, by the Monks he sent, FIRST Converted the English Nation unto Christianity, the now Catholic Roman Faith. Where also the Falsehood of other Ministers, namely of M. White, and M. Mason about this point are refuted. THE Occasion of this Encounter, was an insulting Reprehension I found in your Letter (a) pa. 92. & did suppose was suggested unto you by some Minister against us, that in handling Controversies, we are wilfully perverse, that we still persist in our former opinions, notwithstanding your strong Protestant arguments that have been brought against them. You give example, concerning the first Conversion of our Country into the Christian faith, which I did except against in my Treatise, as offering us therein exceeding great wrong. And because you indited me of fraud (b) Counters. p. 55. that I conjure your words together to raise my own sense, I will first set down what you writ, and I objected against you, that the Reader may see, whether I changed your meaning or no. 2. Having ended your scriptural arguments against Purgatory, you insult over us in this manner: (c) Lettr. p. 91. 92. Why should I hope to satisfy you in this? as if I could urge that, which hath not been long since propounded to this purpose? What is it that can gain assent in those that are wilfully perverse? To give you one instance for all, how often hath it been demonstratively proved, that setting some frivolous ceremonies aside, our Country of Britain was no whit beholding to proud and insolent Augustine, your Great Gregoryes Delegate, for any matter of faith. Gildas his testimony hath been urged, who lived before Augustine's coming, that the Britain's received the Christian faith from the beginning. Baronius hath told you, that S. Peter was here, Theodoret that S. Paul, Nicephorus that Simon Zelotes, and some, that joseph of Arimathia did plant the faith amongst us. Many forcible inducements have been produced, that even in the primitive Church, Christianity harboured in this isle. These instances and many more, have been again and again renewed, without any verified contradiction, and yet as if it had been a matter which you never heard of before, you would (as in all other points) make us in this follow you up and down, wearying the world with a Circular discuss, bobbing your credulous Ladies with these Sirenical insinuations. These are your true words, which I excepting against, complained of your trencher-Minister, in this sort. 3. They make (d) Overthrow. part. 2. c. 8 p. 318. 319. the credulous Knight say, that when we speak of the conversion of England by S. Gregory's means, we weary the world, and bob our credulous Ladies with a circular discuss, as though we had never heard of Gildas his testimony, that the Brittans received the Christian faith from the beginning; nor that Baronius hath told, that S. Peter was here, Theodoret that S. Paul, Nicephorus that Simon Zelotes, and some that joseph of Arimathia did plant the faith amongst us Thus the Knight writeth, by their suggestion, by which it is clear, that he never read the book he seemeth to speak against; nay he doth not know so much as the subject and argument thereof, to wit, Of the three Conversions of England, which book the Ladies (if they have it at hand, as he seemeth to complain, that it is still on their Cushions) cannot look into without seeing the falsehood of this saying, and how the trencher-Schoolmaisters of the Knight would bob them also with a plain untruth, as they have done him. 4. For that book taketh notice of, and handleth largely Gildas his testimony, declaring the meaning thereof to be, that in the time of Tiberius Christ appeared to the world, not that Christian faith then entered into Britain, which is altogether improbable; seeing Tiberius lived but five years after Christ's Resurrection, in which time the Apostles either went not out of jury, or did not preach but to the jews only, nemini loquentes verbum nisi solùm judaeis, as S. Luke saith in the Acts (e) Act. 11. v. 19 That S. Peter was here, that Treatise doth take notice of, and bringeth divers arguments to confirm the same, urging his preaching, as the first conversion of England, though other Apostles and Disciples might help thereunto. Neither do I think any English Christian is so averted from the Roman Sea, that he will scorn this Kingdom should be the Convertite of that great Apostle, though the first Roman Bishop. These things in our books we take notice of, and examine them more exactly than Protestants have done 5. But to what purpose are these brought by Protestants? The Britons received the Christian faith, some of them at the least in time of the Apostles under S. Peter the first Roman Bishop, the whole Realm openly and publicly under Eleutherius Pope in the second age, by Fugatius and Damianus sent from Rome, in King Lucius his time, which Sir Edward maketh no mention of: what is this against the third conversion of the English Nation, which long after this time, being heathen, having expelled the Britons, began to inhabit the Realm; who (the Britons neglecting them) were converted by S. Augustine's means, sent by Gregory Pope, as that Treatise proveth, and all Histories of our Country do witness, and even Protestants themselves do confess, as is proved in the first Chapter, and first section of the learned Treatise of the Protestant's Apology for the Roman Church, and that it was converted to the now Catholic Roman faith? Thus do Ministers bob Sir Edward, making him print such stuff either false or impertinent, with the loss of his honour, which I dare say, had he seen the book, he would never have done against his conscience and knowledge. 6. This I then wrote, to which you make this answer: First should I (say you (f) pag. 47. ) grant all, that I never read that maister-worke of the three Conversions, I see not what inconvenience will ensue. Is there no better employment of my time, than the perusal of that Arch-fugitives lines? Or hath none besides of their faction beaten this bush, or harped on the same string? Or am I in conscience bound to put the seal of my assent to whatsoever F. Persons did write? Thus you: but who doth not see that this your answer is impertinent, and your lines fugitives from the matter in hand. I did not accuse you, for not reading F. Persons lines, nor for otherwise employing your time, nor for not giving assent to what he wrote I charged your Letter with belying and slandering his, and our manner of proceeding in that point of controversy concerning the conversion of the English. I wondered at your saying that we deal in this matter, as if we had never so much as heard of the conversion of the Britons in the Apostles time, which I proved our Authors, namely, the three Conversions, to make most particular mention of. I did presuppose that had you perused that book, you would not have uttered so notorious an untruth, nor have termed that Treatise, where this point is so substantially handled, not any instance you could mention being omitted therein, a circular discuss, or a guilding of old weatherbeaten objections, with new glistering words. 7. I know it is to be inexcusable rashness, for one to give a proud and peremptory Censure of books he never perused: to excuse you from which imputation, I sought to make your Minister the author thereof, to the end both to lay your errors before your eyes in the least offensive manner, as also because I did, and might very probably think that some Minister had had his finger in your Pie, his heart and hand in that falsehood, I could not acknowledge that, that accusation was indeed originally yours, without charging you either with palpable rashness or wilful falsehood: Neither can you, now you have taken the matter upon you, quit your hands handsomely thereof. For either you perused our Treatises concerning this matter or no. If not, your rashness is evident to censure what you never read, to make yourself judge, and condemn a multitude of learned men in a matter you are wholly ignorant of (g) judicant multi priusquam legerunt, priusquam inspexerunt quidem. Lips. de vesta. ad Lector. : what greater presumption than this? But if you did diligently peruse our authors, principally those that thought were to have handled this controversy most exactly, than your insincerity is inexcusable, in slandering them of proceeding, as if they had never heard of your learned Instances, which they do most largely and particularly handle, as you cannot deny. I confess (say (h) p. 48. you) that he (F. Persons, in the three Conversions) acknowledged that S Peter was here in England: he mentioneth also, perhaps upon greater probabilities, the coming of S. Paul, Simon Zelotes, Aristobulus, and joseph of Arimathia. Did you know these things Sir? How then could your heart choose but give your pen the , when you writ we deal perversely with you about this point, as though the Conversions of the Britons by the forenamed Apostle and Apostolical men, were a matter we never had heard of. 8. But you demand, where do I say (say you) that they weary the world, and bob their credulous Ladies, as if they had never heard of Gildas his testimony, I never named their author, nor questioned the matter, howsoever it pleaseth him to join the pieces of two sentences, which are almost a whole page distant, and to fetch his marginal note ninety and two pages off. This is the great injury I have done you, whereof you so grievously complain. This is my conjuring your words to make my own sense. You would have the Ladies like so many Hecuba's take violent revenge upon me, for this my causeless, as you say, traducing of a Knight, to whom their honour is no less dear than his own (i) p. 55. . How dear their honour is to you, the unknightly phrases wherewith you honour them, in your Epistle, may sufficiently show, to omit the foul Popinians wherewith you charge them in your Snarl. Which injuries, were they disposed to revenge out of a worldly stomach, rather than pardon out of Christian charity, they should need, like frantic Hecuba's (by which comparison you seek to disgrace them) to fly themselves in your face. They want not their Hectors who in defence of their Mother's honour, would make you practise that point of prowess you much commend, (k) p. 68 to run away as well as fight. 9 To return to your accusation of me, for falsifying the meaning of your letter, the particulars are so ridiculous and idle, that I am loath to spend time in the discovery of them. I fetch, you say, my marginal note 92. pages off: a great fault doubtless, what if I had fetched it 2000 miles off? I pray you what matter is it how far of marginal notes are fetched, so they be true and fit for the purpose for which they are brought: which you neither do, nor can deny, that mine was? I said, that you seemed to complain that the book of the three Conversions lay upon the Lady's cushions, to which I cited in my margin a sentence out of your Epistle to them; where reproving them for being over busy with the Antiquity of your Church, which they cannot conceive, you say, quid quòd libri Stoici inter sericos valere puluillos ament? This saying directed against our books, that discover the green years of your Mother-Church, and the perpetual tradition of the Roman, seemed to me to aim specially at the three Conversions that treateth of that subject, which was then very famous and plausible in the hands of many: in which opinion I am now more confirmed, in preceaving you took your discourse out of M. Whites Church verbatim who citeth that author in the margin. 10. But, I joined the pieces of two sentences together, which in your Letter, are almost a whole page distant. This accusation is no less vain than the other. I did not profess to recite your words, but to set down your meaning, which I might do, though I did put those words first which you placed last: you set down many instances to prove a Conversion of our Country, before S. Augustine, and then say, as if we had never heard of that matter, we bob our credulous Ladies. I begin with this last part, & say that you wrote that we bob our credulous Ladies, as if we had never heard of your instances, which I particularly did relate, being indeed the matter which you would have men think we never take notice of in our Treatises of that subject. What difference in sense betwixt these two sayings, as if they had never heard of the matter, they bob their credulous Ladies, which is your in your Letter, or they bob their credulous Ladies, as if they had never heard of these & these things, which contain that matter; what doth it import that bobbing of Ladies be the first clause or the last? Yea but Gildas was no part of that matter you questioned. Let any man peruse your words, he will clearly perceive both that Gildas his testimony, was one, yea the first of the Instances, the principal part of the matter you accused us to make ourselves wilfully ignorant of, and that these your exceptions are either idle and impertinent, as a transposition of words without change of sense, or else false, denying that to be part of your matter, which he that looks on it will find to be the very head thereof. But these particulars, you say, were not by you alleged, as if we denied them. Neither did I accuse you to have said, that we denied them, but that we make no mention of them, that we deal as though it were a matter we never heard of. 11. But to what end then did you bring them? To prove, say you, from our acknowledgement, that we had therefore little reason to magnify the entrance of that Delegate with the glorious Style of the Conversion of the English Nation. No Sir: your intention was to prove we are wilfully perverse, that we take no notice of these matters wherein your Minister's Falsehood is apparent. Your other Authors indeed bring them to discredit the conversion of our Country by S. Gregoryes means, wherein I said in my Treatise, they show themselves wilfully perverse, still coming forth with weather-beaten objections, either impertinent, or evidently false. For if they, or you mean that the former Authors do write, that before S. Augustine's coming the British Nation was Christian, you speak truth, but nothing to the purpose. For why might not S. Augustine convert the English unto Christ, though the Britons were Christians before? And if by his entrance, and preaching he did convert them, why should not the same be styled the Conversion of the English Nation? The impertinency both of your argument, and accusation of our Authors shallbe made clear by this example. Suppose an Author writing an English history, say there is no fair City in Wales, some trencher-schoole-maister, or other taking the matter in snuff, seeketh to confute it, by naming divers fair Cities in England, as London, York, Lincoln, Norwich, complaining that these Cities have often been named, and painted, printed, and reprinted, and yet that Historian, as if he had never heard of the matter, dareth write, that there is not any City in Wales, bobbing his Reader with sirenical insinuations. Now if it should be proved, that, that Author maketh full and honourable mention of the former Cities, and of all the rest that are in England, extolling their greatness and magnificence, more than any Historian before him, would not that Pedants accusation be thought no less false and injurious, than his proofs thereof childish and ridiculous; If I be not deceived, Sir Edward, yourself would set such a frown on him, as might make him vanish out of your sight. 12.. Now lay your hand on your breast, whom this Parable toucheth, laying open your unjust proceeding and witless arguing against our Authors. They say that our English Nation was not Christian before S. Gregoryes time, that S. Augustine was the first that planted Christian Religion amongst the English; you snuff, or snarl thereat; you bring out of Gildas, Baronius, Theodoret, Nicephorus, divers plantations of the Faith amongst the Britons, by some Apostles or their Disciples; you cry out upon us, that we are wilfully perverse; that we make as if we had never heard of the Instances you bring. When matters come to trial, you are forced to confess, that indeed they grant those former Conversions of the British Nation; they adorn and set them out more than any other before them. Yea their own Historians reckon our Treatise upon this Subject, among the worthy Monuments of our Country's Antiquity (m) The History of Great Britain printed anno 1606. p. 302. . But how do the Allegations impugn what they aver? What repugnance hath that Original Conversion of the Britons by the Apostles, with the Plantation of Christianity by S. Gregory's means among the English? The Britons were Christians when S. Augustine came; doth it therefore follow, that the Saxons were not Heathens? The Mountains unto which the Britons retired, were full of Christian Churches, might not the rest of the Land be full of Idols? Is not both the falsehood and folly of your argument apparent? So that, as I said, the Conversions named by you, truly understood of Britain's only, are impertinently brought to prove, that S. Gregory, and S. Augustine his Delegate were not the Authors of Christianity amongst the English. 13. But if you mean, as you seem to do, that before Augustine's arrival, the Saxons, some of them at least, were Christians, your Assertion as I said, is evidently false, against all Histories: neither do you bring any probable reason thereof, only with a list of idle Interrogations, you fill almost a whole page of your Snarl (n) pag. 50. 51. . I demand say you, whether S. Augustine found not in Britain, at his arrival amongst the English Saxons, seven Bishops and an Archbishop, who were not only Professors, but also Preachers of the Christian faith? Were there not at that time in the Monastery of Bangor two thousand Monks? Was not Queen Aldiberga a good Christian before she came into Kent? or had the Bishop her Chaplain no faith at all? Will he not believe Bede, who writeth that before Augustine's coming, the Britons were infested with Arianisme and Pelagianisme? Thus you play the justice of Peace, wasting paper in frivolous questions. Had your better employments of your time, to wit in laughing & sleeping (o) pa. 68● permitted unto you the perusal of F. Persons book, perhaps you would not have fallen into this vanity, for which in that Treatise he doth sharply reprove another Ministerial Knight. What if some Britons were Arians or Pelagians before S. Augustine's arrival, must therefore the English needs be Christians and catholics at his coming? Queen Aldiberga and her Chaplain who were French, had faith when he came, could not therefore the whole English Nation want Christian faith? Suppose the 2000 of Bangor had been a Million of Monks, yet being Britons, quid ad Rombum? may he not be justly thought a Bangoring disputant that doth thence infer, that at that time the Saxons were not Heathens? 14. Augustine found an Archbishop and seven Bishops, but were those Professors and Preachers of Christian faith among the English Saxons, as you seem to aver? No, they neither preached unto them nor lived amongst them, as S. Gregory doth expressly say in his Epistle to S. Augustine. (p) apud Bedam lib. 1. Histor. c. 27. In Anglorum gente tu solum Episcopus, thou art the only Bishop among the English. Will not you Sir Edward believe S. Bede who writeth that the Britons could by no means be brought to preach the faith of Christ unto the Saxons? Yet God, saith he (q) l. 1. c. 21. forsook not his people whom he had chosen, but sent unto the forenamed Nation, more worthy preachers of the truth, to wit, S. Augustine, and his holy company of Monks. But the Author of the three Conversions will teach me, you say (r) p. 51. that which you believe I willbe scarce willing to hear; viz, (s) Three Conversions part. 1. c. 9 n. 1. That from the time of King Lucius, until the coming of Augustine, which was some hundredth years and more, they, the Britons, did not alter their faith, but it remained amongst them when he entered. Why should not I be willing to hear this saying? or rather why are not you ashamed to dispute thus absurdly, and then insult, demanding what is now become of your goodly Conversion? Why should the true Christianity and Religion of the Britons, when S. Augustine entered, hinder or overthrow, the belief of that goodly and godly Conversion of the English, effected by his entrance. 15. I confess I cannot conceive how herein you speak to the purpose, yet you proceed daring me to a trial by the book of the three Conversions. Dares he (say you) let this witness be examined any further? that faith, saith he, which Augustine brought, and that which the Britons had before, must needs be one and the self same in all material and substantial points. Upon which evidence you make the jury give verdict, that, Gregory's was a superficial and not a substantial Conversion, and triumph over me, saying, hath he not now brought his hogs to a fair market? hath he read the book of the three Conversions? The case is clear now that his Ladies shallbe able to conceive it. Thus you: would a man in his senses discourse in this sort? I do not wonder, that when you disputed in Oxford, men put their hands to their heads, which you do interpret, scratching their pauls for an answer. Such babbling as this, cannot but make learned men's heads ache. This is your argument. Augustine converted the English Saxons, to the same faith in all substantial points, that the Britons had before, as the three Conversions saith, Ergo he did not substantially, but superficially convert them. Is not this a goodly argument? Is any man so silly as not to perceive your Consequent to be ridiculous? that it hath no greater connexion with your Antecedent, then hath a Racket with a Ramshorn. Yea the Contradictory of your Conclusion may from your Antecedent be evidently deduced in this syllogism, unto which I dare say you will never be able to make a clear answer: To convert substantially a Nation unto Christ, is to plant among them the true Christian faith in all substantial points, which they had not before. But (even in the very place you allege to discredit S. Augustine's Conversion of the English) the three Conversions doth acknowledge, that S. Augustine did plant the true Christian faith among the English, which they had not before, to wit the same in all substantial points, that was before delivered to the Britons from Eleutherius. Ergo, (by that testimony) S. Augustine did substantially convert the English Nation unto Christ, the contrary whereof you did thence infer. Have you not brought your Hogs to a fair market, that send such doting discourses and gross stuff unto Ladies, whose writer you undertake to be? Yet your imbecility and weak arguing deserveth some pardon. 16. As the draft can hardly be fairer than the pattern, so neither your discourses more learned than those Ministers books, whence you copied them. He is a good Archer that hitteth the white, when the white is deplaced: it is not his fault though he shoot wide of the mark. Your aim in this discourse at your White Minister, whose digression about this point, partly in your letter, partly in your Snarl you have translated as your own, in a manner verbatim, as I said before, where likewise the said Minister hath another ridiculous discourse about this point, which you did wisely note to copy out into your learned snarl. It is objected, saith he, that the faith thus planted at the first in our Country, was extinguished again by Paganism and Heresy, in that part of the Land, which was inhabited by the English Saxons, whom Austin converted. This is indeed our objection. M. White let us hear how substantially you make answer unto it. I (t) Way to the Church p. 356. answer, saith he, three things. First if Religion were among the Britain's and extingshed no where but in Kent, where Austin arrived, than he converted not the Land, but one poor country of it, and must be called no longer the Apostle of England, but of Kent. 11. Do you not see how ridiculously this Minister runneth out of Christendom into Kent, as though this had been then the complete division of our Country, and that he that was not Christian, was a Kentishman in those days! How doth it follow, that if religion were amongst the Britons, it was no where extinct but in Ken? or that if S. Augustine converted not the Britons, he converted only one poor Country? Had the Saxons only taken Kent? did they not possess the rest of the Land, beside some Mountains, as Camden noteth (u) In his Brinitana ? I might also marvel why this Minister of Eccles▪ should term Kent a poor Country, specially in those days, when the King thereof had the rest of the Kings of the Isle in subjection unto him, did I not know, that these men care not how true it be they say, so it may disgrace that charitable and happy enterprise of the Roman Bishop; to make which seem of less esteem, he termeth Kent poor. 18. Let us hear his second Answer. Next, saith he, the busiest adversaries we have in this matter, (x) Three Conuers. p. 1. c. 11 n. 4. & inde ad 12. say, that all the Land, containing seven kingdoms was converted, within sixty year of that time, as well as Kent, so that it should seem, they would have the faith to be extinct, not in Kent alone, but in all the Land beside, which is untrue. Thus he. Where you may note Sir Edward, a notable false trick of your Minister, who maketh his adversary say, what he doth expressly deny, that he may more plausibly seem to impugn him. For where I pray you, M. Minister, doth the Author of the three Conversions, whom you quote in your Margin as your busiest adversary, say, that Religion was extinct in all the Land? Yea he saith the contrary in that very place you allege. The Dominion, saith he, of the Saxons in those days, which was all the Land, except Scotland, and that other part now called Wales, was divided into seven several States. So clearly doth the Author say, that the seven Kingdoms of the Saxons, converted by messengers sent from Rome, were not all the Land; whereas you charge him with the contrary, and then say it is untrue, bringing an army of Bangor Monks, British Bishops, Arian and Pelagian heretics, to recover Wales, out of the dominion of the Saxons, whom those holy Monks converted unto Christ. 19 Let us hear M. Whites third answer, whether it contains more substance and solidity, than the two former. Having beaten S. Augustine, from the rest of the Land into Kent, to be the converter of that poor Country, he would feign drive him thence also. Thirdly touching Kent, satih he, where Augustine arrived, Bede saith, that the Queen thereof was a French woman called Bertha, or as S. Gregory calleth her Aldiberga, a good Christian, and had a Christian Bishop even at that time when Augustine came. Thus he writeth, to what purpose I see not. He doth conclude hereupon, that Augustine brought not the faith into the Land with him, but found it here when he came (z) pa. 357. . Which inference if he mean no more, but that Christian religion was in the Britons, and in two French persons at his arrival, we never denied it, nor made question thereof. That which we affirm is, that in the English Nation Christianity never was, before God by S. Gregoryes prayers & Augustine's preaching planted the same in their hearts. Perchance M. White had a further intention, than he durst utter, he laid the cocks egg for M. Mason to hatch the Cockatrice, which he hath done in his Consecration of your Bishops (*) Franc. Mason l. 2. c. 4. p. 57 . 20. We dare not say, saith he, that they, those holy Monks, laid the first foundation of Christianity in Kent. It is most likely that Lethardus the French man the Queen's Chaplain, had laid some stones in the Foundation, before the coming of Austen. Therefore if he that layeth the first foundation of religion in a Kingdom be called an Apostle, than Austin was not the Apostle of Kent, but rather Lethardus. Thus he writeth, without any proof, against all Authors of our Country, giving a sufficient token, into what desperate absurdities, Malice against the Sea of Rome, will drive them. S. Bede saith (a) l. p. ●● c. 26. , expressly that the King upon Augustine's coming gave leave for the preaching of the Gospel. A sign that none did nor durst preach, without his leave, specially one that was so nigh about him, and so much in his sight as the Queen's Chaplain, who thereby might bring both himself and the Queen into danger, the King and the whole Nation being cruel & barbarous, as than they were. Besides that Bishop living in Court, if he converted any, it is most likely they were noble men, and persons of account, with whom he did converse. Which thing could not have been hidden from the King, if they refrained from going to the Temples of the Idols, and offering sacrifice with the King, as being Christians, they ought to have done. Finally had any been converted and secretly baptised before S. Augustine's arrival by Lethardus, doubtless they would have manifested themselves at his entrance, when the King granted unto his subjects to embrace and profess the Christian faith, which had been a thing very remarkable, and would not have been concealed by S. Bede in his history, had it been true, the rather, those being (if any were) by all likelihood men of reckoning about the King, as I noted, & Lethardus having gathered some Clusters of them, as M. Mason saith. 21. Wherefore this conjecture of Lethardus his being the Kentish Apostle is so improbable that M. Mason had he not been blind with malice against the Roman Sea, would never have thought it most likely. Out of the same malice also the same Mason and Minister (to make his Reader believe, that Messengers from Rome did not plant Religion among the Angles or English) dareth write in that same place, that Northumberland was converted in the days of King Oswald, by the Ministry of Aidan a Scot, expressly against S. Bede (b) l 2. c 12. inde ad 18. , who writeth, that Northumberland was made Christian by Paulinus one of S. Augustine's Associates in that Apostolical enterprise, who converted King Edwin Predecessor unto Oswald, & brought him to throw down the Temples of Idols. The people he baptised were innumerable. Once to pretermit other particulars, being with the King and Queen, in one of their Princely houses, such a multitude of people flocked unto him for Baptism, that for thirty days together, he did not any other thing from morning to night, but Chatechize and Christian people: what may we think of M. Mason's conscience so scrupulous, that he durst not say, that S. Augustine first preached Christianity in Kent, though all histories aver it? Yet so audacious, that to take the glory of the first Conversion of the Northumber's unto Christ from Rome, he dareth write against all histories, that they were converted by Aidan a Scot, who did not convert them, but only perfected that conversion Paulinus had begun, and reconciled some, that out of fear of the Pagan King Penda had abjured their faith. 22. He that was so quicksighted that he could see Clusters of Christians in Kent, gathered by Lethardus before Austin, which never any Historian before him did espy, now he is so blind, that he cannot perceive a whole Vintage of Christians in Northumberland, gathered by Paulinus before Aidan, whereof yet so famous mention it made in our Stories? Is not this man think you to be trusted in his faithful Allegations of Records and Registers, for the Consecration of their first Archbishop in Lambeth, and not at the Nagshead in Cheapside, (c) l. c. 4. as hath been often objected to them whom it nearly concerned, who could and would have said more of the matter, than this Mason, had that blemish in their Church's face been colourable. They would certainly have brought forth the Registers long since, had they been extant in those days. But as I said, any judicious man will perceive, what credit is to be given unto him, about secret, concealed, and questionable Registers, whose hatred against the Pope transports him to falsify our known Records so openly, where any mean historian may take him in the trick. 23. This manner of writing is a sign that the desire not of truth, but of our disgrace is the Bias of these men's pens and tongues, which make them not fear to speak, and write any falsehood howsoever improbable, that they think may serve for that purpose. This Bias doubtless, Sir Edward, was set to your pen, when it ran into this main untruth, that our Country is not beholding unto proud and insolent Augustine, for any matter of faith, besides some frivolous ceremonies. Mark your words, Frivolous Ceremonies only, not any matter of faith was planted by proud & insolent Augustine in the English Nation. Here you conjure indeed, calling M. Whites spirit in your letter out of his Church, who was the first (as far as I know) that ever uttered that impudent falsehood, out of whom you copied it & the proofs thereof, with a little change of words. I say, quoth he, that S. Augustine converted not our Country at all, (d) p. 356. besides the planting of trifling Ceremonies. And again: His errand, as it may probably be thought, was about the planting of certain ceremonies, and the dealing with our Countrymen about the Observation of Easter. And Gregory that sent him, about that time, was busy in changing the Liturgy, used in those western parts, & did thrust his new ones, upon all the places he could. It may be this was a part of the Monks business unto Kent (e) pag. 357. . Thus writeth your Minister. Which is I dare say one of the greatest untruths in matter of History, that ever durst appear in print. 24. First it is false that Gregory made a new Liturgy of his own, forcing the same upon the western Churches, as may be made clear, by that which S. Bede writeth of this (f) l 2. Hist. Gent. Angl. c. 1. Pope, to wit, that he added to the Liturgy, three short petitions, viz. diesque nostros in tua pace disponas, & ab aeterna damnatione nos eripe, & in electorum iubeas grege numerari. Had he changed wholly the old, or made a new Liturgy of his own, would Bede, think you, who was so curious to note his addition of only three words, have omitted it? Yet suppose he then had that business in hand, would this Minister have us imagine that, that matter did so wholly possess his brain, as he could not remember to deliver unto S. Augustine, when he sent him, a greater and more substantial errand? So far was that Blessed Pope from being absorbed with trifling Ceremonies, as this Minister would have us think, as contrariwise, saith venerable Bede (g) l. 2. c. 1. , whereas former Romanie Bishops had much given themselves to the building of Churches, and adorning them with gold and silver, this Blessed Pope, totus ad animarum lucra vacabat, had all his thoughts employed in the gaining of souls unto God. 25. What more famous than his hearty affection towards our Nation, which to convert from Idolatry he was coming in person, from which kept back by higher authority, when the business or mission now lay in his hands sent preachers unto us? Before his Popedom, the least sound or similitude of words could raise his thoughts to think of our greatest and everlasting happiness (h) Camden in Britannia. Beda ubi supra. . The word Angli made him wish us the fellowship of Angels. Aelle the name of the King to desire that Alleluia should be song in our streets. Deiri (so was the people, when those youths were brought called) to prophesy that we should be delivered the troth Dei, from the wrath of God. Now is it probable, that sending Messengers unto this Nation, he would send with them a message of trifling Ceremonies, not that faith and Religion, which only was able to redeem them from the wrath of God, and bring them to the fellowship of Angels? Sure I am S. Bede (i) Bed l. 1. cap. 26. saith otherwise, that S. Augustins errand from Gregory was more heavenly, to wit, praedicare v●rbum Dei genti Anglorum, to preach not trifling Ceremonies only, but the word of God to the English Nation, and when frighted with the fierceness of that barbarous People, they began to look back, he sent them Letters exhortatory, that trusting in God, they should go forward ad opus verbi, in the work or mystery of the word: in which Letters also, he doth show, what a deep desire of our everlasting happiness did dwell in his heart, wishing he might be partaker of the merit of their labours, and that the sight of our Conversion might be part of his eternal felicity in the next world. 26. When S. Augustine did deliver his errand to King Edelbert, I find in the same S. Bede, this tenor thereof, se venire de Roma, & nuntium ferre optimum: that he came from Rome, and brought a most joyful message, which whosoever should obey, should have eternal joys in heaven, & a perpetual Kingdom with the true and living God. Will you hear S. Augustine's errand and business into Kent and England, and the joyful issue thereof, set down by your famous Protestant Antiquary (k) Brit. pag. 125. ? Augustine, saith he, commonly named the Apostle of the English, sent hither by Gregory the great, having destroyed the Monsters of heathenish impiety, with most happy success, planting Christ in their minds, converted them unto the Christian faith. But what stand I seriously to confute such gross untruths, full of ingratitude as these are, which Englishmen, whom heresy hath not made more savage than those were whom that Blessed delegate found at his entrance, will wash away with tears but of this Ministers books. He had reason, having styled his book, The way to the Church, to term his discourses digressions, that is, Turn out of the way. For being so full of falsehoods and those most impudent, as you have seen these are which you copied into your Countersnarle, what can they be but by-ways and crooked paths, that will conduct the credulous Reader, that walketh securely in them, into heresy, the ready downfall into Hell? I do not marvel Sir Edward, your children be so deformed, which you conceive with this foul pattern, not whiter than your Blackmore before your eyes, as I could and would discover, did I not fear to exceed the brevity of an Epistle, yet I am in hope shortly to have time and leisure to do it more fully. 27. This only I now add, which also is pertinent to the matter we handle, that whereas Catholic Religion converted our Country from Barbarity unto Christianity, this Minister layeth the contrary imputation on it, that is, maketh some part of our country still savage and barbarous, which your Protestant Modesty, and Religion forsooth must civilize. All disorders, saith he, (k) p. 110. be most in those places amongst us, where the people is most Popeholy: other parishes, where the Gospel hath been taught, being reduced to civility, and the rest that serve with Priests & Recusants, remaining savage & barbarous, that no Christian Man can endure their manners. For my own part, having spent much of my time among them, this I have found, that in all excess of sin Papists have been the Ringleaders in riotous companies, in drunken Meetings, in seditious assemblies & practices, in profaning the Sabaoth, in Quarrels & brawls, in stage-plays, Green's, Alice, and all heathenish customs. The common sort of that people commonly burned in sin, swearing more than can be expressed, uncleanness, drunkenness, perfidiousness, wild & odious. Their families untaught and dissolute, their behaviour fierce & full of contumely, iniviry, inhumanity, full of slanderous reports, wild looks, and all unchristian usage towards any not of their Religion, that I dare be bold to say, we may all cast our caps at them for Atheism & all that nought is. Thus he. Truly, Sir Edward, though you follow your Father White a good pace, yet I think you may cast your Coventry-cap at him for railing. 28. Catholic Religion, he saith, maketh men cruel, inhuman, parishes savage, & barbarous, but if we desire to find men courteous and bountiful to the poor, housekeepers, modest, civil, and sweet souls, whither must we repair, but to the parish, where M. White doth purely preach the Gospel. If any man (saith Andreas Musculus (l) Conc. 1. Aduentus. Si quis videre volet ingentem turbam nebu lonum. a famous Protestant) be desirous to see a great rabble of knaves, of people turbulent, deceitful Cozeners, usurers, let him go to any City where the Gospel is purely preached (*) in qua evangelium puré praedicatur. and he shallbe sure to find them there by multitudes. For it is as manifest as day light, that there were never amongst Heathens, Turks and Infidels more unbridled and unruly persons, with whom all virtue and modesty is quite extinct, then are amongst the Professors of the Gospel. Thus he. Is not this a Religious rabble, fit to civilize a Country think you? Let the Minister clap this testimony which not Malice the Author of his Inuiective, but Truth did indight, to his head, lest it take cold, seeing he hath cast away his horned cap after Atheism or Puritanisme, with which he will not appear in Pulpit, not to fright such pure and courteous creatures as his own wife from his Sermon. If he desire to know what Civilizers of people Ghospellers are, let him go into Virginia, where he may find one of of the two or three Ministers that went thither, become savage, not any Savages made Christians by their means. 29. As for the Conversion of our Country, by S. Augustine's means, what, not Civility alone, but also sanctity, what an heavenly (not humanne only) kind of life, he planted amongst us our Histories do relate, which is such, as I wonder this new Gospel, which Ambition and Emulation, Wine and Women gave the beginning unto, dare boast of their Modesty, Civility, or Sanctity in her presence. Let your own Antiquary, whose testimonies I used before, describe that most happy age of our primitive Church under S. (m) Camden. Brit. pag. 98. Lond. an. 1607. Augustine. Thus he writeth: Straight upon the preaching of the name of Christ, the English did consecrate themselves unto Christ in so fervent manner, that the diligence is incredible they used, in the propagation of the name of Christ, in the performance of the duties thereof, in the divulging of the Christian Religion, in building of Churches, in the enriching & adorning the same, that no Province of Christendom, could have numbered more Monasteries, or more richly endowed, than England could in Catholic times, and even some Kings have preferred Religious, and Monastical life, before Kingdoms. So many have been the holy men England hath brought forth, and which for their most firm profession of Christian Religion, most sound constancy and sincere devotion therein, have been put into the Calendar of Saints, that in this point, it hath not been inferior unto any Christian province whatsoever, yea as Britain was termed by Porphyrius a profane Philosopher ferax Tirannorum provincia, a province fertile of Tyrants, so likewise England may he styled Insula Sanctorum feracissima, an Island most fruitful of Saints. Thus writeth your Camden. 30. Now if the tree may be judged by the fruit, as Christ teacheth (n) Matth. 7. Arbour bona bonos fructus facit. what a noble and worthy tree was that conversion, from the root whereof such innumerable Saints, and excellent works of Piety in such abundance did spring? What force to purge a Country from Idolatry, heathenish Superstition, wicked and dissolute life hath our Purgatory doctrine? would you now on the other side seriously consider the thorns & thissles of Atheism & Impiety (o) Numquid colligunt de spinis vuas? which your Protestant deformation hath brought forth, you might soon perceive the difference, and which of these two is the vine, which yielded wine breeding Virgins (p) Vinum germinans Virgins. Zachar. 9 eminent Saints, that out of love of heaven and delight in God, contemned the treasures and pleasures of this world. Compare the Monasteries the one builded, with those the other threw down, the riches which the one gave, with those the other took from Churches and holy uses. Let the humility, Piety, fear of God, Reverence to his Church, contempt of the world, which the one caused in great and mighty monarch, be paralleled with the contrary effects, your Religion bred in those Princes, that first entertained the same, in their Kingdoms. These things I say judiciously weighed would show, which of the two Religions, Catholic or Protestant hath opera plena (q) Apoc. 3. , , full, and working devotion, which is minus habens (r) Daniel. 7. a lightheaded Religion, that dreameth to be saved only by believing they are of the number of the elect. 31. Wherefore I cannot better end this my Purgatory Triumph, than in this first Conversion of our Country, by the Patrons & defenders thereof, the triumphant Chariot thereof being honoured with the multitude of admirable Saints, who by the belief of this Doctrine, gave themselves to penance, mortification, and contempt of the world, seeking thereby to satisfy in this life for their sins. Did these men believe Satanical figmentes, and doctrine of devils? Did they disgrace God's mercy? evacuate his Cross? dissipate and dissolve Religion, or no? If they did not, why do you lay those railing, or rather blaspheming Epithets upon this article of our doctrine? If they did, why doth your own Historiographer name them, as the true Professors of Christianity? as eminent Saints, fervent lovers and propagators of the Christian name, and as ornaments of our Land? And if these be saved, and Saints in Heaven, how can you ever expect to come to the place where they walk, being so mainly opposite to their faith in so many substantial points? 32. I know (s) you say, that S. Gregory by his delegate did not plant the present Roman faith, that we now profess; which I think you say it more with your tongue, than your heart: sure I am you say it without any proof. And no marvel M. Whites Original whence you drew it, doth aver the same, without alleging any reason in the world. Gregory's doctrine, saith he (t) p. 355. was not suitable to that which now is holden, as may be showed by that which he hath left written against Images, the supremacy, & merit of good works, & divers other points: thus White, after whom you snarl in this manner. If Augustine preached Gregory's doctrine, what will become of the Pope's supremacy, Images, merit of works, which Gregory was so far from countenancing with his authority, that he disclaimed them with his pen, & so consequently this imaginary supposition will bruise their own pates. Truly Sir did not your eyes dazzle with looking upon White, I suppose your pen would not stumble upon such manifest falsehoods as these are. Who knoweth not that S. Augustine (upon whose honesty you presume that he did bring no other faith than his Master gave him in charge) did enter into England with the banner of the holy Cross carried before him, in the label whereof, was a silver Picture of our Saviour, as Bede writeth (u) l. 1. c. 26. 33. You ask what will become of Images, if Gregory's doctrine be admitted, I answer, first they shallbe reverently kept & set up in Churches, as books to instruct ignorant people, whence when the Bishop of Marsils in France had cast them out, as you Protestants use to do, S. Gregory did severely reprove him for the same (x) Greg. lib. 9 ep. 9 ad Serenum Massilien. . Secondly they shallbe carried in Processions, and the people following shall devoutly worship and honour the persons represented in them: in which sort, your own Bale (z) Imaginem Divae Virginis circum ferri per misit. Bal. Act. Rom. Pontif. printed at Basil. 1558. p. 44. & sequent. doth witness that he caused the Image of the Blessed Virgin to be carried in Procession about Rome, to divert God's anger from the City then infected with Pestilence (a) Vide vitam Gregor. apud Surium Tom. 2. . Thirdly Christans shall go in Pilgrimage to the Images of Saints, namely the Blessed Virgins. Which devotion he will stir up people unto by granting Indulgences to them (b) Vbi supra pag. 46. Peregrinationes ad Statuas pro plebis devotione per indulgentias confirmavit. , as the Protestant Friar doth confess. Finally people shall prostrate themselves before them, not as unto God, but before them shall worship and adore Christ, whom by his Image they remember, either as an Infant in his Mother's arms, or as crucified, or glorious in heaven, which manner of honouring Images by adoring their prototype in them, this Pope doth expressly teach (c) Non imaginem ut Deum colimus, nec quasi ante Divinitatem, ante illam prosternimur; sed illum ad oramus quem per imaginem recordamur. . What more devotion unto Images do Catholics show then this? Is it not strange any man should aver, that Gregory did disclaim from our Catholic worshipping of Images, or that his doctrine lighting on Images would break them, and their worship into pieces? 34. Secondly if Gregory's doctrine be preached in England, the Pope's Supremacy you say, must be gone. And why Sir I pray you? Perchance your reason is, because he did detest the title of Universal Bishop in john of Constantinople, calling it profane, sacrilegious, antichristian (d) Greg. l. ep. ep 32: & 36. . This I know is your common objection, which Catholics have often answered. Will you believe your own Protestant Historian (e) Carion in Cronico l. 4. pag. 567. , that saith that Gregory did tragically declaim against that title in john of Constantinople, yet did he allow and practise himself the same Supremacy that title did import? Will you hear another (f) Andrea's ●riccius. an excellent learned man (g) So termed by Peter Martyr in his common places part. 4. p. 77. who giveth you our Catholic answer, telling, that you mistake Gregory's meaning, for that title of universal Bishop lieth open unto a double acception. First it signifieth the sole and only Bishop of the world, in which sense, saith (h) l. 1. de Eccles. c. 10. p. 576. this Protestant, Gregory spoke against it, amplifying & exaggerating the blasphemy contained in it. Secondly universal Bishop may signify the first Bishop, unto whom the other be subject, and to whom the care of the rest and of their Churches appertain: in this sense Gregory did never say, that title did not in rigour agree to the Roman Bishop, nay he did practise that authority himself, and thought the same was committed to S. Peter, yet did he not think, that either S. Peter or himself was the forerunner of Antichrist. Thus he. Showing that you, and your Ministers may be thought wilfully perverse who still flourish with this objection, notwithstanding so clear an answer, and so many testimonies of S. Gregory for the Primacy. For doth not he expressly teach, that the Roman is the Head and Mother of all Churches (i) l. 11. epist. 54. Speculationem suam toti orbi indicere. apud Conturiatores. Cent. 6. colum. 425. , that it appointeth her watch over all Churches, that even Constantinople itself is subject to the Roman Sea (k) l. 7. ep. 63. , that there is not any Bishop in the world, which oweth not obedience to the Roman, which may not be reproved and punished by him if he do amiss (l) Si quae culpa in Episcopis invenitur nescio quis ei Episcopus subiectus non sit? l. 7. ep. 64. ? In which speech he doth, saith Caluin (m) l. 4. institut. c. 7. sect. 12. , more than any where else vaunt of the greatness of his Primacy. 35. Now this Rock of the Roman Supremacy, whose pate doth it bruise? whose head doth it crush in pieces, but that Serpents, which hath lately rend, as you ridiculously vaunt (n) Lett. p. 103. , the Bishop of Rome's slipper, that it hath no sound sole, whereon his triple-crowned Supremacy may tread? I should marvel that your proud heads, should stoop so low as the sole of the Pope's slipper, did I not know, that it is the nature of Serpents to be biting as the heel. Suppose you devour at last this slipper with the parings of the Pope's great toe (o) Counters. p. 40. , whereof you seem to say that we make great account, yet the force to bruise the Serpent's head, being not in the shoe, but in the naked sole of the foot, as Naturalists writ (p) Rupert l. 3. de Trinit. c. 20. Perer. in cap. 3. gen. v. 15. Sinuda mulieris planta vivacissimum serpentis vel leviter pressit. , this bare truth alone that the Roman Churches Supremacy, was generally believed of Christians, more than a thousand years ago planted amongst the English in their original conversion unto Christ. This clear and undeniable verity, confessed even by the enemies of that Sea, is able I say to strike dead the heresy of this age, which more than any other, creeping upon the ground, and on her belly, (q) Super pectus tuum gradieris & terram comedes. Gen. 3. busied in worldly and venerial things, hisseth at this point of Catholic religion. 36. Now as for the merits of good works, the third point wherein you say we have S. Gregory against us, your own auhors write, that he did highly magnify the works of Supererogation, Monachisme, Satisfastions, Vows (r) Carion in Cronico l. 4. pag. 567. , giving too much to free-will and good works (s) Osiander Cent. 6. pag. 28. . This Saint saith, that in heaven there shallbe differences of dignities (t) l. 4. Moral. c. 41. Qui alium meritò superat retributione tra●scendet. l. 2. in 1. Reg. explicans cap. 7. Ad delenda peccata id. nea. , according as in this life there is diversity of merits, that the affliction of penance is fit and apt to blot out our sins, when it is enjoined by the judgement of the Priests. In brief it is so clear that in all points he taught the same faith the present Church of Rome holdeth, as divers learned Protestants do confess in express terms, that Augustine brought Popery into England (u) Bale centur. 1. fol. 3. Powel considerate. pag. 34. , his entrance was not the Conversion but perversion of our Country (x) Fulke against Purgat. Dan. resp. ad Bell. p. 1. p. 780. . M. Morton in his Catholic Apology placeth in his lists of Papists, and his adversaries S. Gregory (z) Apol. Cathol initio. , whom together with S. Austin M. Wilet ranketh amongst the first Fathers of Superstition, and ringleaders of Popish divines (a) Tretrastilon p. 122 , whereupon your famous Historian (b) Lucas Osiander. epitome. centur. 6. pag. 290. Haud dubiè ad inferos descendit. concludeth, that Augustine subjecteth England to the Lust of the Roman Antichrist, and therefore after his death went undoubtedly to Hell, there to receive his reward. O unhappy religion, the professers whereof, can find no hope of Salvation, nor passage unto heaven, without throwing down into Hell most eminent Saints, and amongst them the Converters of Nations unto Christ, whose Sanctity and Charity, when they are not pressed therewith to abjure their errors, they cannot but highly commend! O wonderful obstinancy against truth that makes Christians that would so be thought, prefer Paganism before the Christian faith, that overthrew it, yea join with the open and professed enemies of their eternal Salvation, rather than with those that sought the same with eminent peril of their lives! 37. Do you remember Sir Edward the Title of proud & insolent Delegate, which you bestowed bountifully on the first Preacher of faith, unto our English Ancestors, which now you defend by bidding me before I enter into choler against you for it, to go ask counsel of the British Bishop (c) Counters. pag. 53. whose Counsel had it been followed, before S. Augustine's, the whole English Nation might have been barbarous, Idolatrous, at this day. The chief reason that made this Blessed Saint to jar with them, was their want of Christian charity towards the English, not yielding to preach Christ and Christianity unto them. I will not follow counsel to ask counsel of them, but rather pray with jacob, non veniat in consilium eorum anima mea (d) Gen. 51. , let not my soul enter into their assembly, where perchance I might learn your Prontestates charity, to vow never to forgive injuries, neither in this world nor in the world to come. (e) Lett. p. 6. But to let pass that ancient Controversy, this I say, the joining with those bishops that hindered the Conversion of the English against S. Augustine, that laboured in the Conversion osthem is excess of ingratitude & impiety in those that are descended of those Ancestors, whom that Blessed Saint made Christians. Is it not an heinous offence in them, to judge and condemn their own Apostle, their Father that begot them by the Gospel unto Christ, of pride, and insolency, upon such a sign or token, as to condemn any other man by the like, were admirable rashness? 38. You say that vultus animi judex, the countenance is a token of the heart, I confess it is so, yet but an uncertain and fallible token, whereupon to frame a resolute & determinate judgement in the condemnation of any is against Christ's express commandment, Nolite secundum faciem judicare; (g) joan▪ 7. Do not judge according to the face, which precept S. Paul repeateth, Nolite ante tempus judicare (h) 1. Cor. 4. . Do not judge before the time till our Lord come, who will discover things hidden in darkness, & make manifest the secrets of hearts: in which words the Apostle doth condemn as rash, the judgement of any man's heart by outward signs. How oft do godly and discreet superiors, show Anger, State, Gravity, and Severity in their countenance, when their hearts are full of humility, compassion, and meekness, in which, and in the sight of God, they prefer before themselves, even those whom outwardly they seem to disdain? Which lesson no doubt but this our Apostle had learned of his Master (i) Greg. in pastorali. , who being appointed by the Pastor of the whole Church, Primate over the Briton Bishops, if for their want of charity towards the English, and for their Schismatical division from the rest of the world, in their observation of the feast of Easter, wherein they had obstinately persisted, he did refrain those complements and signs of charity towards them, before their yielding unto peace and truth, I neither see why the same may not be excused, nor how to excuse the rash condemning of so glorious a Saint, in so heinous a crime, upon no greater presumptions thereof, specially his miraculous sanctity and charity being such, as the light thereof might dissolve a greater mist, than this silly suspicion can with any probability raise. 39 If josias who destroyed Idols and Idolotry amongst the jews (k) 4. Reg. 23. 2. Paral. 33. was to all posterity in that respect so grateful, that the memory of him was no less sweet than perfume to the sent, than honey to the mouth, than music at a feast to the ear (l) memoria josiae in compositione odoris quasi mel in omni ore, & quasi musica in convivio vini. Eccles. 49. , why should the name of this Blessed Augustine, be less precious and fragrant to any English, who bestowed the same yea greater benefits and blessings on their Country? And glorious indeed was the festival Commemoration of this our josias, who by his most pure and Angelical life (m) Vita mundissima Sanctorum delectatus Beda. l. 1. c. 27. won Edilbert unto the Christian faith Catholic, before your Religion came, whose opposition with ours in faith, hope, and charity you describe, saying (n) Lett. 9●. that your faith is wholly directed to Christ's Merits, not looking to gain Heaven by good works as we do, your hope to his merits, not doing any penance for your sin,, to satisfy his justice, your charity to his deputies, the Saints upon earth, as who should say, your charity doth not much regard the Saints of the next world, neither those which be in Purgatory, or in Heaven, you neither care to help the necessity of the one by prayer, or to honour the memory of the other with praises. 40. Yea that Machiavillion Maxim, Mortui non mordent, seemeth so printed in your mind, that you dare snarl at Saints in Heaven, reviling their glorious names with such reproaches, as I dare say your servile (o) Count. pag. 39 pen would tremble (not out of fear of hell) to lay them upon any, whose power & authority you stand in awe of, towards which your Saints on earth, you are no less obsequious, then conteptuous and blasphemous against those of Heaven Your Countersnarle yieldeth divers examples or this base devotion (*) pag. 20. his majesties cipher. p. 70. pag. 74. but one I cannot omit, concerning the Lord of Canterbury that now is, your Saint on earth, in whose commendation you show yourself no less light and lavish, than you were stern and severe in the condemnation of the first Bishop of that Sea. His praise the last thing by way of execution in your Pamphlet, may seem to have been the first in your intentions, and that your long snarling at me, aimed to end in fawning on him. The cause that your dog, hath been so diligent in travailing my piece of ground, was to raise some game, that your Hobby might have a fluttering flight at his Grace. In the end after much search, you espy in my River, the Dux of your English Clergy, which though too swift a winged foul to be caught by so silly a bird, your pen flieth in his praise as fast as your flattering conceits can move it. 41. Yea but M. Crashaw, say you (p) Counters. p. 77. , hath committed such an error, as deserveth deprivation ipso facto, wot you what? In his jesuits Gospel he makes Dux Cleri the Popes chiefest title, which (if we believe this Informer) was never given him by any Catholic, but rather belongs to the Lord of Canterbury. I will not be so curious to stand upon the numbers of 666. thence collected, but set that a side, I dare say, Crux Cleri, had been the better word for the Pope: and yet to meet him at the rebound, I hold Dux Cleri to be but part of his Grace's title; who by the goodness of his affable disposition, bounty in hospitality, painfullnes in preaching, and dexterity in the dispatch of all occurrences, hath well deserved the style of Lux Cleri, in being such a light in Choro, and Foro, that if a man should search like Diogenes amongst all the Cardinals, he should miss of his match. So that me thinks the matter were not to be held so heinous, if he have taken that part which my Lord might best spare, to pay the Pope more than his due. Thus you commend the living with as little grace as you did revile the dead, bearing true devotion unto neither. 42. First it is false that I (q) Overthrow p. 1. c. 1. p. 76. accused M. Crashaw for making Dux Cleri the Popes chiefest title: my accusation was, that he made it a Title proper to the Pope only, and that to make his devise more plausible, englished it the Pastor of Pastors, or universal Bishop. Secondly I did not say, that never any Catholic gave that Title to the Pope, but only that it was not the ordinary style Catholics did use to give him. Thirdly I never affirmed, that Dux Cleri did rather belong to the Lord of Canterbury then to the Pope, but only that I thought M. Crashaw durst not deny that Title to his Lord Bishop. Fourthly it is extreme falsehood, that I stood upon this toy of his injuring his Lord of Canterbury or that I urged that error against him, as a heinous crime deserving deprivation ipso facto. So that it is clear, that your intention was not, to clear M. Crashaw. You omit what I objected against him, yea you charge him with that I never dreamt of, that under pretence of defending your Bachelor you might flatter your Bishop. 43. Now if I would take you at the rebound, as you do me, I might prove by your words, whatsoever your meaning was, that you take the style of Antichrist from the Pope, and bestow it on his Grace. Dux Cleri, say you, is but part of his Lordships Title, and that part he might best spare, which therefore M. Crashaw might well take to pay the Pope more than his due. What did M. Crashaw pay the Pope by this Title? Was it not the number 666. the number of the beast, the mark of Antichrist (r) See jesuits Gospel pag. 78. 79. ? Now if this be more than the Pope's due, doth not your Bachelor, whom you take into your protection, offer the Pope wrong, in laying on him so vild a reproach that is not his due? If Dux Cleri, wherein the number of the beast and pride of Antichrist goeth enclosed, be part of his Lordship's Title, then by this wise flattery neither is the style of the beast worse, nor yet so ill, as he doth deserve, nor the arrogancy of Antichrist laid to his charge, more than is due to his Grace. What high and proud Titles do you think due to his Lordship, seeing those that raise a man to the Throne above God, in your judgement come short of his worth? Behold how handsomely you fawn on your Lord. I think verily had M. Crashaw fiddled so foolishly in his Grace's praise, he had been beaten from his benefice and deprived ipso facto. 44. Knights and Noblemen be privileged, who seldom afford your Clergy a good word, yea as one of them (s) M. Downam in the preface to his Sermon at the Cross. complaineth, you are loath to bestow either your Sons on the Ministry, or Daughters on the Minister. They will take any thing from you in good part, and be content with your Daughters, though they have no more grace nor wit, then have those your hovering with your pen over their Dux, though herein you soar, I am sure, both beyond his deserts, and your own knowledge. For how can you so certainly tell that not any Cardinal in Rome may match him, in prayer, devotion, and being Lux in Choro? Me thinks it is not very likely that your Diogenes with his Lantern should sooner find his Grace spending the night in prayer, than any of that sacred Senate, among whom some have been trained up in Religion, and in the continual exercise of devotion from their Childhood? But as for Lux in Foro, if you mean thereby any public work of Piety or Charity, built by his Lordship, or any other Protestant Bishop, I dare say a man with a light at noon, may search long enough in London, before he meet with so much as a Crux in Foro (except such as are set up, to hang Catholic Priests) of his making: whereas divers Churches, which are ornements of Cities & inducements to devotion, have been built & are now a building by Cardinals. 45. What you may gain by this flattery I know not, nor what you aim at, perchance his Grace's affable disposition may afford you a friendly look, or his largeness in hospitality a sumptuous Supper. Supposse, which is the highest mark your ambition can gaze on, that his dexterity in dispatching all occurrences, may advance you to some higher place of dignity amongst the Senators of the Realm. Alas, what are these fleeting honours gotten by devotion to Saints on earth, compared with that you might purchase to yourself everlastingly, by charity, reverence, and devout prayer to Saints in heaven, who sit in the same Throne with the King of Kings, ruling the world (t) Apoc. 3. . How holy would you be, were you the cipher (u) Counters. p. 20. of these Blessed Kings who cannot command amiss? How happy were you, friend of these favourites, not of a mortal Prince, whose glory shall turn into dung, whose Majesty be consumed with maggots, who this day glittereth in gold, (x) Gloria eius stercus & vermis. Machab. 1. & 2. but the next may be cast into Hell (z) hody est eras in clibanum mutitur. Matth 6. Luc. 12. , but of the Eternal King, whose majesty inviolable, glory immutable, power invincible, goodness incomprehensible, whose life eternity. The Peers & Princes of which glorious Kingdom you would not, Sir Edw. so boldly blaspheme as you do, did you indeed firmly believe, that you must meet with them again one day, when they shall revenge injuries done to them, bind Kings in fetters and their Nobles in gives, did not your Protestant charity so fill your heart with Earth, that these heavenvly & wholesome cogitations cannot enter into it. Saints out of sight are out of mind: your Church hath no communication with them, you pray neither for them, nor unto them. 46. His Majesty in the Conference of Hampton-Court would not have the Custom of Churching women after their lying in to be abrogated, though Puritan did much exclaim against it, because he would not have women that are of themselves backward in that duty, be deprived of such an occasion, as might force them, thereunto, oftener than other wise they would. Wherein as I highly commend his religious prudence, so could I wish the like might be used in the renewing of Catholic Custom, to pray for the souls in Purgatory, and unto the Saints of Heaven. Men are so ready now a days, to believe there is no other world but this present, that all things end with this life, that the soul liveth not after the body, or at least they are so apt to forget what shall befall them after death: so seldom do they think of the last things, to the remembrance whereof the Holy Ghost doth so often exhort us (a) Eccle. 7 Memorare novissima tua & in aeternum non peccabis. that no occasion should be omitted in procuring that so profitable a thing might be continually, as much as may be in men's minds. 47. And to this end not any thing is more forcible than these two points of Catholic faith, that some souls in the next world need our help, some others may help us. This belief will not permit charity to be wholly employed upon the Saints upon earth, the love of themselves will force men often to remember and call upon the Saints in heaven wishing their blessed company in glory for help. And affection towards deceased friends, will cause them to call to mind, & think that shortly they shallbe as their friends are, & so procure and power out devotions for their relief, if happily they stand in need thereof. Why should we labour to be wiser and perfecter than were the Apostles, who as your Zwinglius saith (b) In Epicherisi de Canone missae fol. 285. did permit prayer for the dead, exindulgentia infirmitatis humanae, out of Indulgence unto humane infirmity? What infirmity in man's nature is more frequent or daungegerous then forgetfulness of another life? Or when did this deadly disease more universally reign, then in this last decaying age, when a deluge of Epicurian humours threaten to drowned in men the belief of a God? 48. Why should not we then grant this Apostolical Indulgence unto Christians, to pray for the dead, that this custom may be the remembrance of another life (if not perpetually) yet frequently in men's minds? Specially this custom being Ancient, practised by the Maccabees, praised by the holy Ghost, a deduction from Christ's words, the perpetual tradition of the Church, the first Christianity planted in our Kingdom, as I have proved in this Letter. These are the five medicinable herbs I made you promise of, to purge your enraged humour against Catholic and Ancient truth: the best furtherance I could afford unto your greatest good, the most charitable & Christian revenge I could have of you, heaping Purgatory-coales on your head (c) Congere carbones super cuput inimici. Rom. 12. for those reproaches you charged on mine. 49. Yourself allow that common proverb, that Cani latranti praeda elabitur (d) Counters. p. 58. a snarling Cur misseth of his prey, which may give you just cause to expect but hungry gain of your Countersnarle, where snapping at me, you have caught wind, yea you have beaten your own chops and bitten your tongue. You lay the vices of vulgar life upon your adversary, known to be free from the same, which even (as stones cast up into the Air, fall strongly to the Centre) might return heavily on your own head, did not I hold them by force within my pen. Among all your marginal Annotations, I must prefer that of your 58. page, where you teach me this lesson: Conuitia hominum turpium laudes puta. By the warrant of which sentence, I may bind your contumelious Pamphlet to my head, as a Diadem of honour (g) Circundabo illum ut Coronam mihi. job. 31. in which I hope your reproaches shall shine like pearl (h) Matth. 6. Beati estis cùm maledixerit vobis homines & dixerint omne malum mentienres. at that day when Purgatory and Penitential life that now have got the Conquest of your Letter, shall gloriously Triumph over Sin and Hell. 50. What remaineth, but only that I beseech him who with five precious wounds on the Cross redeemed the world, that these my five reasons, five Purgative herbs may work powerfully in you, which I will not fail to do. As your jovial Genius moved you to make a firm purpose never to reply to my answer (i) pag. 68 but to spend your time in laughing and sleeping (k) Aut dormitabo aut ridebo : so do I feel the divine spirit, urging me to a contrary course, now more than ever to employ the rennant of my life in watching & weeping (l) Vigilabo & flebo. praying with hearty groans (m) Postulat pro nobis gemitibus inenarrabilibus. Rom. 8. particularly for your reclaiming from heresy, that doing penance for your sins, & making satisfaction in this world, you may without any Purgatory, or with a short singe therein, pass unto the place of everlasting Salvation. From my Chamber in Hierapolis this 8. of September. 1613. FINIS. Faults escaped in the Printing. Page Line Fault Correction Pref. 6. 9 shirts skirts 4. 29. any my 9 22. Photinians Popinians 16. 27. fear fair 28. 3. blot bolt 38. 32. Should Can 40. 1. shame sign 54. 16. his puppy this puppy 59 9 life self 57 26. as the at the 103. 18. denying deriving 105. 5. he who 113. 2. merely merrily ibid. 12. pleasure measure 142. 5. 25. Genua Geneva 145. 28. & told told 146. 6. luck's tucks 147. 21. flight, of flight. Of Other faults of less moment by reason of the obscure Copy, and absence of the Author, have likewise escaped, which the Reader may easily find, and correct of himself. FINIS.