EUBULUS, OR A DIALOGUE,  
Wherein a rugged Romish Rhyme, (inscrybed, Catholic Questions, to the Protestant) is confuted, and the Questions thereof answered.  
BY P. A.  Answer a Fool to his foolishness, lest he be wise in his own conceit. Proverbs, 26. 5. 
ABERDENE, PRINTED BY EDWARD RABAN, Dwelling upon the Marketplace, At the Towns Arms, 1627.  
WITH PRIVILEGE.   

TO THE MOST HONOURABLE, VIRTUOUS, and Christian Lady, ANNA, LADY GORDON, etc.  
OF this DIALOGUE, (MADAM) written, now, thirteen Years ago, no more was, at that time, intended, but a few Manuscripts, for satisfying some Godly Minds, and obviating the insolency of some ignorant, and idle Humours; foolishly glorying of nothing: Yet, even so, was it bold, then, to betake itself to the shadow of Your most Honourable NAME, though it never had yet the courage, to present itself, to a Kiss of Your Hands: and, perhaps, had lain buried in this its Shamefastness, for ever, if, upon the renewed impudent Importunity, of the same sort of Men, at the instant desire of some well-affected Christians, it did not now come out, to a more public view of the World.  
In which case, if it should either neglect, or disclaim, so Noble (an Ones acclaymed) Patrociny; albeit there-by could be no imparement to Your Honour, (to whose great worth many such Dedications can add no lustre:) yet, were it some Disgrace, to the Treatise itself, and, discredit, al-so, to the Author thereof; who yet liveth no less affected, than ever, to serve Your Ladyship in the LORD.  
Receive, then, that which is Your own; as a poor, but an upright Token, how far the Author, and all of his Calling, account themselves obliedged, to give Your Honour, all Heartening, and Encowragement, for cleaving, so constantly, (against manifold assaults and temptations) to that Truth, which, herein, is defended.  
The GOD of all Truth, still more and more, establish, strengthen, and confirm You there-in: bless Your most Honourable Lord, and You, with all Happiness, here; and, bring You both, in end, to Eternal Blessedness, with HIMSELF, in the Heavens.  
YOUR LADYSHIP'S Humble Servant, P. A.   

TO THE READER.  
IT may, perhaps, (Christian Reader) appear strange to thee, and little beseeming my Place and Age, that I deign, so ridiculous a Rhyme, with so large an Answer, yea, with any Answer at all. But, so it fell out, that, now, above thirteen years ago, the perverse sedulity, of seducing Priests, and the foolish Insolency, of ignoran●… Souls, seduced by them, and vainly glorying of this their Ballad, which numbers of them had continually in their mouths, who never had either read, or gotten by heart, any one Psalm of David, did work, in a certain very honourable, and worthy Noble Man, such holy Indignation against the one, and pitiful Compassion of the other, as made him seriously solicit me, to make some Answer thereto. Which to do, I was induced by his Entreaty, though much against mine own Disposition. Who, as I love, and commend the accurate Inquisition, and clearing of Truth, by calm, and Christian Conference, and sober, and sedulous Indagation: So, from mine Heart, I ever abborred all litigious Contestation, in whatsoever Argument; but, most of all, in matters of Religion, And yet, such is the miserable mishap of our time, or rather, of mad Humours in our-time, that nothing is so bitterly, and with so great Heat, Passion, and damnable spite, debated, as are points of Divinity. And, this intemperie, hath so far, in common, taken all minds, as that all Christianity, is now turned in odious, and humourous Disputation: and all, both Men and Women, will be, forsooth, of a party; albeit most part of them so ignorant, as they know neither what they hold, or what they impugn: no more understanding what they speak of, than do Pyo●…s, or Parockets, those words which they are taught to prattle. And, withal, so carrying in all their other Conversation, as it is both shame, & sin, that they should be so and acious, as to take any such. Argument in their mouths, who hate to be reform; and, in all their ways make not Conscience of any Sinne. Yet, they are incessantly hold, to move Questions of Religion: who, being posed again, can not answer to the simple questions of the children's Catechism. Thus, be at of Disputation, hath not only cooled, but even, almost, extinguished all Devotion: and, not only breedeth Strife; but even, all-where, breaketh out to more ungodliness. You shall hardly fall now in any fellowship, where you shall not hear some one, or other, question of Religion, egarlie, profanely, & miserable torn, and tossed, amongst such and acious, and impure mouths, as neither inwardly in their Souls, 〈◊〉 ●…ny sense, or outwardly in their carriage, any practice of true Religion. Will you talk with these Questioners, of true Piety, of Faith, of Regeneration, of Christian life, of Mortification, & subduing our affections, of Christian patience, of the work of GOD'S Spirit in our Souls, for those effects, of the joys of the holy Ghost; or, finally, of any case of Conscience: they shall stand as dumb, as Fishes: you shall be to them a Barbarian, & a●… strange, as one speaking Aethiopian, to an Irish. With whom, though I▪ have no delight to deal in this sort, yet the mouthers of perverse men, must be stopped: Baal's Priests must be checked, with holy scorn; and Fools must be sometimes answered to their folly, lest they should appear wise in their own conceits. Now, as for these Reasons, I (having my service then assigned me in those Quarters, where this Folli●… broke forth) was at that time stirred to write this Treatise, and, even then, to give out some one, or two, Manuscripts thereof; where-by to calm, somewhat, those insolent Insulter's; and, to confirm godly, though weak, Minds: and, it having, accordingly, in some measure, wrought that effect then: I, there-upon, did cast it by hand, as, in mine own Estimation, no more useful, or to be regarded. But, while now again, our Adversaries, of late, (through too great indulgence, and connivance granted them) have risen to greater insolency than before, and, impudently, repone to us, not only the same Matter, but, al-so, in the same manner, shamelessly, and senseleslie, still blazing, al-where abroad, this their Proper Ballad, a●… if never any thing had been said thereunto: diverse well affected Brethren, (knowing that I had a Copy thereof by me) dealt instantly with me, that this Treatise might be put to the PRESS. For whose satisfaction, I have given way to the Printing of it: wishing, heartily, it may both please thee, and be profitable unto thee, and all honest Hearts, seeking, in singleness, for Confirmation, and establishment in Truth: and praying GOD, that all of us may seriously study, not so much to Idle, and unprofitable Wranglings, as both to learn ourselves, and to teach others, that Doctrine, which is according to godliness▪ Farewell.  
THINE, IN CHRIST, P. A.   

TO PHILADELPHUS.  

LO, PHILADELPHUS, how Thy love hath led me,  
To penning of this PAMPHLET, for Thy pleasure:  
whereof, with Reason, well I could have fred me,  
If this I durst, with Thy Contentment measure.  
It may seem strange, that of my little leisure,  
I any part waste on such Wares, so vainly:  
Wherein, allbeeit weak Women place a Treasure;  
Yet hath their Poet played the Fool so plainly,  
As, if my Motives be not well esteemed,  
For answering, I shall a Fool be deemeed.   
Thine Own, EUBULUS.   

The Interlocutors.  

PROTESTANTS.  
PHILADELPHUS,  
EUBULUS,  
THERIOMACHUS,   

PAPISTS.  
PHILOMATHES,  
ERIPHILUS,    

EUBULUS, OR, A DIALOGUE, Wherein a rugged Romish Rhyme (inscribed, A proper Ballad, containing Catholic Questions to the Protestant) is confuted, and the Questions thereof answered.  

CHAPTER I.  
SOme personages of good quality, not long ago, were in a Progress, partly for recreation, and partly for some necessary Duties, both towards GOD and Men: Amongst whom PHILADELPHUS and EUBULUS (refreshed each greatly with others fellowship) did, ordinarily, drive over the tediousness of the way, with divers, not unprofitable, Discourses. A midst which, one day, at a certain part of the Country, Philadelphus thus spoke to Eubulus.  
Albeit it be much against my mind, to part from yo●… any minute of time, yet here I must control mine own affection, and crave you pardon, to divert a little, a side of our way, for saluting a tender Kinswoman; wherein I shall use such haste, as, GOD willing, in short space I shall be with you.  Eubulus. 
Sir, you have reason, not to oversee her: and I 
I.  will here attend your return upon the way.  
Now, in little more than an hour's space, Philadelphus, returning, had this Speech: How-so-ever I have taken short time, yet in it, have I learned somewhat, which I can not but regrate unto you. I have been visiting a Gentlewoman (I may say) of good parts otherways, but that, by the deceit of Seducers, her Heart is alienated from the Verity of GOD HIS true Worship: Which, through the love I bear her, so pierceth me, as I could not choose, but, in the little Conference we had, to ask her, why she did so obstinately obfirme her mind against Truth? She answered me, That she could obtain no Resolution to her Soul, of such Scruples, as chiefly moved her to abhor our Communion; albeit she had so far sought for it, that she had delivered her Doubts, in writ, to their Minister, Theriomachus: who receiving them of her hand, with covenant of an Answer, yet had done nothing for his acquytall there-in. And, verily, if you were acquainted with her, you would think, that all pains were carefully to be employed, where-by she might be reclaimed from Error.  Eubulus. 
I can not, but greatly wonder at this you tell 
II.  me: for I know Theriomachus to be learned, in such measure, as he might well anough have acquitted himself in aught she had, in that matter, either required of him, or he promised unto her. But it is well, that you have made me foreseen herewith; for I look, that even here Theriomachus shall set himself to meet us; and so we may there-by know of him the whole Case. Lo where he cometh, exceeding opportunity. GOD save you, Brother Theriomachus.  Theriomachus. 
The LORD bless you both: and I am glad ●…o see you in these Quarters.  Philadelphus. 
How do you like (Theriomachus) of your Station here?  Theriomachus. 
A Soldier must obey his Captain, and acquiesce in whatsoever Station he pleaseth to assign him: for He is wisest, and well knoweth, what best fitteth every one of us. My Station hath taught me, so experimentallie, what the Apostle meaned, by his fight with 
1. Cor. 15. 32  Beasts at Ephesus, and I have acquired such both an active, and a passive understanding thereof, as I may be bold to say, I could write a large Commentary upon that place.  Philadelphus. 
I take you well (Theriomachus:) you must have patience: For, how-so-ever no part is so barren, but that it produceth some fine Spirits; yet, in such a nature of Climate and Soil as this is, it is no marvel, though the people, in common, have some inbred feritie, which, yet, Time and Travel may reduce to some more mansuetude.  Theriomachus. 
You have, Sir, in a part, but not thoroughly, taken up my Case: For besides any inbred feritie, they are, most part of them, enchanted.  Philadelphus. 
What! hath the Rod of Cyrce touched them? or hath any Thessalonian cunning converted their shapes, and made them Asses of Men, as was Lucius Apuleius? that it may seem the foresight of this Fatality, hath made this your Parochin to be named 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉: and you, accordingly, do find, that, in effect, they are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Yet, Theriomachus, you know, that Asses are peaceable and obsequious Beasts, ready to receive Burdens, wherethrough your fight may be the more easy.  Theriomachus. 
But they are wild Asses, and hear not the voice of the Dryver: and are like to those Horses and Mules, whose Mouths must be bound up with Bit and Bridle, lest they come near us. Yea, their Enchanters have so ' bewitched them, as they are maniable only to them, and wayward towards all others. And they are even so contentedly miserable, as they have no desire to be disinchaunted.  Philadelphus, 
You tell us wonders: For, thus, these Enchanters should far exceed all Cyrcees cunning, who, though she turned the bodily shape, yet could not bereave the Enchanted of their Minds and Memories, but that they remembered still their proper state, and regretted, inwardly, their present condition. And the Thessalonian Magicians, could work no more on Lucius Apuleius.  Theriomachus. 
You, yet, in a part, missconceive me. I mean not of any turning of their bodily shapes, which they retain still, of Men, whiles yet their Minds are miserable metamorphosed.  

Haec venena potentius  
Detrahunt hominem sibi,  
Quae arcem penitus petunt,  
Nec nocentia corpori  
Mentis vulnere seviunt.   Eubulus. 
Brother Theriomachus, you know, that, for making 
III.  any, who have drunken Poison, to vomit it again, sweet Milk, especially, must be given them to drink: and, for a Child, which hath been misfostered, by sucking in corrupted Milk, you know, that healthsome green Milk is the best Restorative. And thus only, in my judgement, you must labour, first, to disinchaunt this people, till, by consuetude, their feritie be mitigated, and their Stomaches brought to bear more solid Nowrishment. And, as Philadelphus, even now, alluded, very prettily, to the name of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉; so may the name of one most special place, here, warn us, by Notation, what, both for itself, and for the rest, is requisite: even 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. It is our Lot, Brother, to be amongst Briers and Thorns, and to dwell in the mids of Scorpions: and our LORD warned us of our Condition, when He sent His Apostles, as Sheep, in the 
●…atth. 1●…. 16.  mids of Wolves. There is none of our Calling, and truly called, but, in some measure, hath this Battle with Beasts: For, as the fear of the LORD, and the keeping 
●…lesiast. 1●…. 13▪  of His Commandments, is all the Man; so a Man, even in honour, if he understand not, is but l●…ke the Beasts that 
●…sal. 49. 〈◊〉.  perish. I must, indeed, confess, that you (Brother) are more exercised than many others: wherethrough we are holden in a singular care, to comfort you, and in-call GOD, for your up-holding; who is sufficiently able to bear you out in that Service He hath put you in, and to furnish you Strength, according to the Burden He hath laid on you. But this our Digression upon your Theriomachie, hath set us aside of that which principally we had to impart unto you, and for which we are specially glad, that we are so conveniently conveaned. Then, turning Eye to Philadelphus; Sir, you can best make relation, of that which you did lately hear, and wherewith, there-upon, you did immediately acquaint me.  Philadelphus. 
You know, Theriomachus, that the Lady of yonder Place, is my tender Kinswoman, and is commended, for both Natural and Civil Gifts; for zeal also in Religion, but without knowledge. I ask her, this same day, why she did remain so refractory against the Truth? She answered, That she could find no Resolution to her Soul, of such Doubts, as chiefly moved her to abhor our Communion; albeit she had so far sought for it, that she had delivered them to you, in writ: and that you, receiving them of her hand, upon covenant of an Answer, yet had done nothing for your acquytall there-in▪ So as this is not only an imputation to you, of failing promise; but it strengtheneth her also the more in Error, while your ceasing maketh her think her Questions so strong, that you can find nothing to answer to them.  Theriomachus. 
The Commendation which that Lady carrieth, for those parts you mention of her, I acknowledge to be most just. It is true, she delivered to me some Questions, in writ; to all which, in conference with herself, I answered, as far, as in my judgement, might have satisfied any Soul, set singly for Resolution. As for any answer in writ, I neither promised, and ask advise of my Brethren, of our Presbytery, if it were expedient, and, in that case, offering thereto my pains, they thought it no ways convenient, to write any thing against so ridiculous, and ofttimes confuted, Cavillations.  Eubulus. 
Have you those Questions by you, that we 
IV.  may see them?  Theriomachus. 
here they are. So taking out a sheet of paper, he gave it in Eubulus hands: who, unfolding it, What, Brother, this is a Rhyme?  Theriomachus. 
So it is.  Philadelphus. 
I pray you, Eubulus, let us hear it.  
Then Eubulus, having read it over, with a sober Smile, looked to Philadelphus, and said, What do you think, Sir, of these Wares? Is there in them any such matter of high boasting to our Adversaries, as that we should be stirred, to make them answer? Then, turning to Theriomachus, Truly, Brother, I both reverence the wise judgement of the Presbytery, and approve your acquiescing thereto. And, verily, I both marvel, and greatly pity, that a person, otherways so well endued, should be misscarried with such foolish things: which, albeit they have been many times answered, by divers, and that I have lately answered each of them particularly, in my Defence of our Callings, and Discovery of the Adversaries Dotage, in the very self Demands, in substance, sent to myself; yet simple Souls are still borne in hand, That these, forsooth, are insoluble Knots. And it is, indeed, no marvel, that they delude so securely, when, first, they have brought their Disciples hereto, That they neither will read what we write, nor hear what we teach. And if, perhaps, upon any such motion, as this is, from any of them, we fall to write aught, it is, immediately (without any either reading or pondering what we speak) put in their Ghostly Father's hands: whose word sign, they take for the estimation it is to be had in; as I have lately learned, even by mine own experience.  Philadelphus. 
I can not deny, Eubulus, but you have great reason to speak so: yet, in any Case, I would, that one of you should say somewhat to these Questions; where-by, if the misscarried party may not be converted, (as mine heart's desire were) yet at least the Questioner his bragging may be calmed somewhat.  Eubulus. 
For my pa●…t, I mind not to answer aught, 
V.  both because in mine other Treatises, I have already said, what I esteemed needful, (whence any, who in singleness seeketh Resolution, will not weary to search it) and because I ever abhorred such kind of contestation: for that, what, or how oft soever we answer, yet still the same things shall be of new, and impudently, obtruded. If you, Brother Theriomachus, think it good, you may satisfy Philadelphus' herein: and the adversary's insolency shall so answer for you, to your Brethren, as you need not fear to find them such severe judges, as was Manlius to his valiant Son.  Theriomachus. 
What you judge, were idle labour for you: how can I be there-in laudably occupied? if any expediency were of an Answer, it lieth now most on you; for mine imputation is past, and the next, undoubtedly, will be yours. And as it can not escape their knowledge, that you have both craved, and gotten, a sight of their Questions; so this will be their glorying, That from man to man, we have all spitted at them, and given them over.  Eubulus. 
I am glad, Brother, that in this your daily Combat 
VI  with Beasts, you are not yet so mated, but that you are cheerfully disposed to jest with your Friends. If such motives as these did always stir us, as our Adversaries are disposed, there should never be any end of jangling. Always, if it please you, I will retain this Rhyme some days, and thereafter send it unto you.  Theriomachus. 
So that you send it back, with whatsoever children you shall beget upon it, that I may have mine own, with increase: and now, with this condition, I must take my leave of you both, for such instant necessities as force me, against my will, to break you company: and I perceive some others casting themselves in the way to meet you. The Blessing of the LORD be with you.  
Philadelphus, and Eubulus, The Grace of GOD accompany, comfort, and strengthen you.  Eubulus. 
You see (Philadelphus) upon how light and small 
VII.  grounds, our Adversaries build up to themselves, matter of glorying against us: but, I pray you, what two Gentlemen are these, who, as seemeth, are drawing towards us?  Philadelphus. 
If I take them rightly up, the one is Eriphilus, and the other is Philomathes; both two Papists, but of a much-different disposition: for this Eriphilus, is of a bitter, and contentious humour; the other, Philomathes, of a sweet, modest, natural, and, otherways, as towardly a Gentleman, as I know any; but that he is not, yet, well lightened in the true way of GOD His fear: and, I think, they be coming to salute me. These same are the Men.  Philomathes. 
Do you know (Eriphilus) what Gentleman this is, which accompanieth Philadelphus?  Eriphilus. 
What? (Philomathes) have you not, as yet, known Eubulus? whom, I can not tell, what phreneticke Fancies, or melancholious Mi●…contentmentes, have, of late years, driven of a private Gentleman, to become a Preacher: and, he hath so bewitched the miscarried fancy of Philadelphus, that he maketh no small account of his fellowship: yea, even my Lord, his Father, and my Lady, his Mother, carry him no less reverence, and love, than if he were, forsooth, a person of some worth.  Philomathes. 
And is this, indeed, Eubulus? verily, I am glad I have the occasion to see him; for he hath the report of a discreet Gentleman, and that he hath some good Gift in teaching; and I have much longed to hear him.  Eriphilus. 
What! Philomathes, do you account it a lawful thing to hear any of these Heretics? This Eubulus, I tell you, is an Orator, and can persuade foolish people, to wiene much of him. And I will not deny, but he hath some piece of prudent and fair Carriage: but Catholics ought so much the more to shun his fellowship, lest they be deceived with Shows.  Philomathes. 
Verily, (Eriphilus) I can not altogether allow of your judgement in this: for albeit I mislike their Church, yet I have heard some of their Preachers speak, both powerfully, and holily; so as I can not deny, but I have been sometimes both instructed, and edified by them. And, if we will lay aside Passion and Praejudice, we must acknowledge, that there be some of them, who are both excellently learned, and exemplarlie holy men. And thus much have I gained by hearing of them, that certainly, I perceive our Writers to lay against them, many unjust imputations, so to make their doctrine odious: as if they did maintain things, whereof I have often heard them teach the contrary. And, for me, I never can approve, that a good Cause be defended with Calumnies.  Eriphilus. 
To speak plainly to you, (Philomathes) I think you are little from halting betwixt two: and I can not account him a true Catholic, who will either hear, or in any thing approve such Heretics; or will so much as once call in question, whatsoever the Church enjoineth.  Philomathes. 
I will bear with you, to judge of me as you please: but I both am a true Catholic, and do reverence the Church; yet without light, indifferently, to embrace all things, I think it not only brutish, but also unlawful for Christians, who have to try what they hold. And verily, (saving the judgement of holy Church) that opinion of implicit Faith, hath both much disgraced the Catholic Cause, and hath made our Doctrine to be suspected of mani●…. But it is high time for us, to salute these Gentlemen.   

CHAPTER II.  Philomathes. 
GOD save you, Masters.  Philadelphus. 
GOD save you, Philomathes, and you Eriphilus. Do your Affairs lie this way?  Eriphilus. 
This same is our way: and though it were not, yet we had reason to offer you the duty of Convoy; so, as if it be not displeasant unto you, we will, for a space, keep you company.  Philadelphus. 
Your company is to us very acceptable.  Eriphilus. 
But, I pray you, good Sir, was it not the Minister, Theriomachus, who, a little hence, did part from you?  Philadelphus. 
You have judged rightly.  Eriphilus. 
And how falleth it, for all his Clergy, that, now in almost half a year, he cannot find an Answer to one Sheet of Paper? which yet he received, with no small presumption, that, how-so-ever Pitch was defiling, yet he re●…mbled an hot Tongues, which could contract no Contagion there-by.  Philadelphus. 
By what Logic will you infer, (Eriphilus) because he hath made no Answer thereto, that, therefore, he could find none to give it? Know you not, that by the holy Ghost His own Testimony, it is sometimes foolishness to make answer? And yet how are you bold to affirm, he hath not answered it? Have you heard all the Conference he ever had, with the partie-presenter of that Sheet of Paper, since the time he received it? He hath written nothing thereto (you will say.) But from the defect of a written Answer, to conclude of no answer at all, it is an halting argumentation. And ha●… honest men, think you, who are busied in their public Callings, nothing else ado, but to waste time and travel, in entertaining Plea with Contentions, and idle humours, upon every peevish Pamphlet, put out by them, of things a thousand times refuted?  

To answer aught, is but a labour bootless.  
When curious Questions are in pride proposed.  
On Souls forestalled, all travel ta'en is fruitless:  
For Light is but to lowly minds exposed.  
Many protest, them uprightly disposed,  
Singly to search, and receive Institution:  
Who, yet, keep that within their Breasts enclosed,  
Which barreth out all better Resolution.  
Who with himself concludes, sine counsel craveth,  
According to his Idols he receiveth.   Philomathes. 
You have set down, in your Sonnet, a most certain truth. For myself, I protest, I ever abhorred all contention, and bitterness in disputing. And, who for any other end maintain Argument, but in an upright and calm care, to find out Truth, they are both displeasant to others, and unprofitable to themselves. But seeing that Eriphilus hath casten in this matter, and we have so convenient occasion of Eubulus company, and the time shall be, so well spent; I would entreat Eubulus, that, if he hath aught to answer to these Questions, he will vouchsafe to speak it: and this, I protest, I require, in uprightness; because I do think, there be divers of them, to which, hardly, shall he find any good answer.  Eubulus. 
I never refused to confer calmly with any, but 
I.  I hate contention: and if you (Philomathes) jump with me in this humour, I will obey your request the more gladly; and, I hope, our Conference shall not be altogether fruitless. Have you, then, these Questions by you? and, if not, I can, perhaps, supply your want.  Philomathes. 
I have them here, and will read them to yo●… in order: yet I am glad, that you have already seen them, for you may answer the more resolutely to each. This, then, is the Inscription:  
A proper new Ballad, wherein is contained Catholic Questions, to the Protestant.  Eriphilus. 
I perceive that you are already acquainted with it. How say you then, (Philadelphus) is it not, indeed, a proper Ballad?  Philadelhpus. 
How proper his Ballad is, let poets judge. Out of my little skill, I may boldly affirm, that, for any, either grace it bringeth to his Art, or credit to his Cause, he might right well have contented himself to speak in Prose: but his form is good aneugh for his matter; and he is, I warrant you, no worse Poet than he proveth, evidently, a weak Divine.  

Reason and Rhyme, if sweetly they be sembled,  
Implant in Men the pleasanter Impression:  
Quick Arguments, with Eloquence enaembled,  
Draw contrary Minds, more quickly to Confession.  
But, of true Faith, if under false Profession,  
Songs be made syrops, but to sweeten Errors,  
Prudence will spy, and keep of Truth possession,  
Vnsnared with Sirens, or yet tossed with Terrors.  
But that's soon seen, which wants both Sauce & Season:  
Your raving Man hath neither Rhyme nor Reason.   Eriphilus. 
It is by evincing Syllogisms, I trow, and not by invective Sonnets, (Philadelphus) that you must answer to these Questions.  Eubulus. 
By a Sonnet one may very conveniently give 
II.  sentence of a Song: and Philadelpbus will but let you see, (Eriphilus) that we are not so far borne in despite of all the Muses, but that we could render you as compact Verses, as any your proper Ballad hath in it. Yet, let it be as you desire: we will leave Sonnets a little, and come to Syllogisms. Philomathes, read on.  Philomathes. 
Gladly. Thus than he beginneth.  

I pray thee, Protestant, bear with me,  
To ask thee Questions, two or three:  
And if an answer thou canst make,  
More of thy counsel I will take.  
Many and sundry Sects appear,  
Now in the World, far and near:  
The Protestant, the Puritan,  
The Calvinist, the Zwingliane,  
The Brownists, and the Fam'lie of Love,  
And many more, which I can prove:  
And the Roman Faith, truly,  
Which you do call Papistry.  
All these, in very deed,  
Rehearse all Articles in the Creed:  
And every one of them saith,  
That theirs is the Catholic Faith.  
How should I, amongst all these,  
Know the Truth, from feigned Lies?  
For every one confess JESUS;  
Saying, that their Faith is true.  
But this is it that I do seek,  
To know the Church Catholic;  
The Communion, or the company,  
Of bolie Men, in unity.   Eubulus. 
This hath been the Question, which in all 
III.  times perverse and ignorant men, have pretended for them, as is clear by these words of Chrysostome, Homil. 33. in Act. Tom. 3. The Heathen man sayeth▪ I would be a Christian, but I know not to whom I should clean: Many Debates are amongst you▪ I know not what Doctrine to choose; seeing on both sides they pretend Scripture. Answer him, This maketh much for us: For if we did say, that our Faith were grounded upon natural reasons, thou hadst reason to be troubled: but when we betake us to the Scriptures, which are plain and true, thou mayest easily discern. If any man agree with Them, he is a Christian: and who so oppugneth Them, he is far from this Rule.  
This same Chrysostome, in 2. ad Thessaly. 2. All things are clear and plain in divine Scriptures: whatsoever things are necessary, are manifest in them.  
Again, the same Chrysostome, in joann. cap. 10. Homil. 58. The Scriptures lead us to GOD, and open to us the knowledge of Him: they both make, and keep the Sheep: neither suffer they Wol●…es to break in: For, as a most strong Door, they debar Heretics, and place the Godly in surety. Neither (so being we be willing) shall they ever suffer us to fall away in Error.  
Now, albeit I well might, for all answer, oppose to your Poet, these Passages; yet, lest you complain, (Philomathes) that I pass him too slenderly, I take up the sum of your Man his main Question, to be this: Amongst so many divers Sects, all rehearsing the common Creed, and each acclayming the Title of the Church, how, and by what Marks, we may discern the true Church of CHRIST, from such as falsely do usurp that Title?  Philomathes. 
You have exceeding well taken up the state of the Question. And, I pray you, is it not a necessary Question, and worthy of a careful consideration?  Eubulus. 
Yea, verily: but in proponing whereof, and 
IV.  in answering thereto, your Questione●… bewrayeth, either want of Care, or want of Skill, or (which is worse) want of Conscience. For, if he could prove more Sects than he proponeth, (as both he professeth, and I confess he might) why would he not rather produce them, than, for malicious up-making of a number, where no number is, make them divers, who are but one? For every difference of Opinion, maketh not a divers Sect: much less do divers names of men, who disagree in no material point.  Philadelphus. 
You mistake the matter, (Eubulus) it is not maliciously done of him, but for Metres sake, to make up his Verses, which, otherways, would not have run well.  Eubulus. 
Well: this is his least, albeit even a lourd-Errour. 
V.  But next, (Philomathes) for resolution of his Question, if he had not willingly set himself to wander out of a right and plain way, so to draw others after him, in the dark Mist of drumblie Disputations, he might have taken the only sure, and infallible Mark, from CHRIST His own Mouth: Who, as he is the only LORD of the House, great Shepherd of the Sheep, and Bridegroom of the Bride; so can He, best of any, lead us to know them rightly.  Philomathes. 
That must be of all other the most certain Note: and I long to hear it.  Eubulus. 
CHRIST giveth His Sheep this Mark, That 
VI  they know the voice of the great Shepherd, and follow it; and 
john 1●….  that they will not follow the voice of a Stranger, for they know it not. Where-by that is undoubtedly the true Church, where the voice of CHRIST, and His voice only, is purely preached, and religiously received. If any man love 
john 14. 2●….  Me, be will keep My Word; and My Father will love him; and We will come to him, and will dwell with him. He that loveth Me not, keepeth not My Words, etc.  Philomathes. 
This is most true: but the Question remaineth still, as doubtful as before: for, whatsoever Company doth acclaime to itself, the Title of the Church, they no less boldly affirm, that they do hear the voice of CHRIST; so, as you have, but cast us in a new dispute, what i●… CHRIST His voice, which his true Sheep do hear; and by hearing whereof, they may be discerned to be of His Sheepefolde.  Eubulus. 
Neither CHRIST, nor His Apostles, nor the 
VII:  succeeding Orthodox Fathers, have left place, to make question hereof, to any, who wilfully winketh not: for He 
john. 5. ●…9. & ●…7. 〈◊〉.  hath left us His holy Scriptures, and commandeth to search them, for a Witness of Him. Now, the way to know Him, and, to know His true Church, (which is his fullness) must of necessity be one. Moreover, that which maketh the man of GOD wise, absolute, and perfect to every good 
2. Tim. 3. 17.  work, must make him wise, to discern the true Church also. But the Scriptures make the man of GOD wise, absolute, and perfect to every good work; therefore, they make him wise, to discern the true Church also. So then, the Scriptures are CHRIST His voice, and they only are now to be held for His voice: for, In vain do men worship, (sayeth the LORD) teaching for Doctrines, the Traditions of men. 
Matth. 15. 9  And, when-so-ever any Church falleth to hear any other Voice, or follow any other Speaker, than She looketh aside, 
Cant. 1. 6.  to the Flocks of his Companions, and of a faithful City, beginneth to become an Harlot. And, as Jerome pertinently speaketh, Egredietur è finibus suis; She transgresseth her own Limits. 
In Mich.  Your men, Philomathes, darken all disputation, by deceit of Equivocations, and confounding of distinct Considerations, and Cases. It is a much different thing, to discern the Church of CHRIST, in common, from Infidels & Foreigners. And, again, in that community of the Church, to discern betwixt the true worshippers, and the false; betwixt the true Church, and the Synagogue of Satan, calling themselves jews, and yet are not. And, who, for concluding of this, would bring the common notes of that, he were a doting Divine, and a no less ridiculous Logician, than he, who for discerning a man from a beast, would bring the common properties of a living creature: for, how-so-ever the common notes of Christians, good, or bad, of Orthodox, or Heretics, of CHRIST, or Antichrist, will distinguish the common body (in which all these are) from Foreigners: yet, to discern betwixt the true body, and the inherent evil; betwixt lawful, and adulterous worship; betwixt the Bride, and the pretending Whore; (both of them in, though not both of the body) there is none other sure note, or mark of discretion, but the Scriptures only. When you shall see (sayeth Chrysostome) ungodly Heresy, 
In Matth. H●…mil. 49.  which i●… the Army of Antichrist, standing in the holy places of the Church, then let them who are in judea, flee to the Mountainest that is, they who are of Christianity, dress themselves to the Scriptures: because, from that Heresy hath once obtained place in the Churches, there can be no trial of true Christianity; neither any other refuge for Christians, willing to know the verity of the Faith, but the divine Scriptures. And in that same place: Before, many ways were showed, which was the Church of CHRIST; but now, no manner of way, hut by the Scriptures. For, (sayeth the same 
In Matth. H●…mil. ●…49.  Chrysostome, or who-so-ever was the Author of that imperfect work upon Matthew) if men look to aught else, they shall stumble, and perish, not understanding which is the true Church: and shall fall, there-by, in the abomination of desolation, which standeth in the holy places of the Church. We think it not equitable, (saith 
Ep. 80. ad E●… sta. Medic.  Basilius) that such custom of speech, as hath taken place with them, should be held for a Law, and Canon of right Doctrine: for, if custom were of force anough to prove right Doctrine, we might also imitate them herein. Let us stand, therefore, to the decision of Scripture, inspired from GOD, and with whom are found heads of Doctrine, consonant to the divine Oracles; let Verity be al-to-gether adjudged unto them. Non oportet (sayeth Ireneus) quaerere apud 
Lib. 3. cap. 4.  alios veritatem, cum Apostoli quasi in dives promptuarium plenissime contulerint omnia quae sunt veritatis: that is, We must not seek Truth elsewhere, seeing the Apostles have most plentifully, as in a rich Storehouse, put together all things that belong to Truth. Non haec autilla. (sayeth Augustine) alteri parti suspecta objiciantur, 
Ad Maximin. lib. 3. cap. 13.  sed communia arma sumantur Scripturae: that is, Let not such things be objected, as are suspected of either party; but let the common Armour, the Scriptures be taken. I might bring many more such Testimonies of the Fathers, where-by your man his unnecessary niceness, (Philomathes) in making so great a Question, how Truth, and the true Church, may be discerned, from Lies, and heretical companies, bewrayeth evidently, what upright affection he hath, either to found the true way himself, or to lead others there-in.  Philomathes. 
When all that you have said is granted, (so as not only those be the true Sheep, which hear CHRIST His voice, but that His voice also be determined to be the holy Scriptures) yet the Question remaineth unsolved. For as all Sects acclaime the Title of the Church, and profess the hearing of CHRIST His voice; so do they all allege Scripture for them. And this was, not obscurely, employed in the Question, in that all rehearse the common Creed: so as nothing appeareth to be yet brought of you, which will rid the Debate.  Eubulus. 
To this I answer: First, albeit all pretend 
VIII.  Scripture, yet all pretend not Scripture only, (which, both by Scripture, and by clear Testimony of Orthodox Antiquity, I have proved, in the Case here questioned, to be the only Rule:) for your Church of Rome joineth, and equalleth with Scripture, her own Canons, and Traditions; and there-by declareth evidently, all her worship to be vain. Hoc nimis doleo (sayeth Augustine) quia multa quae in divinis libris saluberrime scripta sunt, minus curantur & tam multis 
Ep. 119. ad lanuar.  praesumptionibus plena sunt omnia, ut gravius corripiatur qui humanas illas traditiones negligit, quam qui mentem vinolentia sepeliverit: that is, I much lament, for that many things, which in the holy Scriptures are most healthsomlie written, are little regarded; and all things are so full of manifold presumptions, as he is more grievously punished, who neglecteth those humane Traditions, than who hath buried his mind in Drunkenness. If that holy Father did find such matter of lamentation, for those small beginnings, (in comparison) which the mystery of your Antichristian Iniquity, at that time not so far as yet advanced, had come to; what had been the measure of his grief, if he had seen it in the top of Presumptuous Impiety?  Eriphilus. 
What, Eubulus, will you make us, therefore, to hear another voice than CHRIST'S, because we hear the voice of the Church? Is not the voice of the Church, CHRIST'S own voice? sayeth He not in Scripture. He who heareth you; heareth Me; and be who despiseth you, despiseth Me?  Eubulus. 
Too great heat (Eriphilus) maketh you to overreach 
IX.  yourself, and so to stumble, both in Logic, and in Divinity. Your Error in Logic, is, that you take that for an Argument, which is the very Point in Question. All our Dispute, is, what Company, of so many Acclaimers, is the true Church of CHRIST. In this Question, proponed to us by your Poet, we are come thus far, That who hear CHRIST'S voice, and His voice only. We have laid also this ground, That the Scriptures are only to be held for His voice. Upon which ground, I challenged your Church, as adding to her own. Now here for your defence, that your Decrees must be counted CHRIST'S voice; and that even by Scripture, you assume, that you are the Church; and, where the Sheep are to be tried, by the voice which they do hear, you will, therefore, justify the voice, because you, forsooth, do hear it. And by such Logic as this, what may you not conclude? You might, with more credit, tell us in plain Terms, That you will not have it put in question, but that you are the Church: than appear to put that point in trial, and incontinent, to take it for a Principle, which is the very Point controverted. Now, as this is your fault in Logic, and that exceeding childish; so, in Divinity, you miss, and more dangerously. Because the LORD affirmeth, That who heareth the Church, heareth Him; and who despiseth them, despiseth Him; if Pastors, under the pretext of this Power, should presume, absolutely, to impose on Consciences, what they please; binding Christians, indifferently, without proving, to admit all; it were an impudent, yea, an impious usurpation: For these speeches of CHRIST have always this employed Condition, That Pastors speak nothing, but the words of the Great Shepherd: For, the words of the Wyse, 
Eccles. 12. 11.  are like Goads, and like Nails, etc. which are given by one Pastor. Were they not, I pray you, the ordinary Churchmen, whom the LORD rebuked, for burdening Consciences, with Traditions, even of Fathers? And were not those Traditions, whereof Augustine so much lamented the imposition, the Traditions of the Church? Doth not the same Father affirm, That Ne Catholicis Episcopis ascentiendum, sicubi 
De Unitat. Eccl. cont. ●…il. Ep. 166. cap. ●….  falluntur ut contra canonic as Scripturas aliquid sentiant: that is, We ought not consent, no, not with Catholic Bishops, if they hold a●…e opinion contrary to the canonicke Scriptures. For (as Cyprian 
Ad 〈◊〉, cont. Ep. 〈◊〉.  saith) Consuetudo sine veritate, vetustas est erroris: Custom without Truth, is but Antiquity of Error. And the Saying of Ruffinus, on the Creed, is notable: Non dicimus, Credo in Ecclesiam, sed, Credo Ecclesiam: ne eadem vis & authoritas videatur Creatoris, & creaturae; Domini & Ministrorum▪ that is, We say not, I believe in the Church, but, I believe the Church: lest one and the same, might appear to be the power and auth●…ritie of the Creator, and the creature, of the LORD, and of His Servantes. Augustine affirmeth, 
●…ib. 2. d●… Bapt. cont. Do●…t cap. ●….  Licere quaslibet litter as Episcoporum, & ipsa consilia reprehendere, si qua in ●…e a veritate devient: That it is lawful to repr●…oue whatsoever Letters of bishops, yea, and the Counsels themselves, if in any thing they decly●…e from the ●…rueth. Because he who heareth the King his Ambassador, or Herald, heareth the King; and who despiseth them, despiseth the King; have either Ambassadors or Herald's an●… libe●…tle, hereupon, to exceed the bounds of then Commissions and warrants? Or, have not the parties, who otherways, are held to hear either of th●…m; yet place le●…t them (without any diminution of the Sovereign Majesty, and Royal Authority) both to ask for, and to examine their warrants? We have but one LORD, and one Lawgiver: and so only doth the contempt of our voice touch Him, if our voice be the Echo of His voice, and we speak not out of our own imaginations. Otherways, the many sad, and serious Warnings, given us to try spirits, were vain.  
Then, turning speech to Philomathes. Eriphilus heat for your Church, (Philomathes) hath almost haled me quite from our Question. You objected, That all Sects pretend Scripture. I answered, That all pretended not Scripture only; for that your Church joineth, and aequalleth with Scripture, her own Devyses. Now, to divert here farther to the Question of the Church's power in this point, and whether she may err, or not, it were to slide away from our present point: and I have disputed that matter at length, in my Defence of our Callings. I give the Case, then, that your Church, and all others, acclayming the Title, did pretend Scripture only: yet, it is one thing to pretend Scripture, and another to have Scripture truly for them: It is one thing to rehearse the common Creed, and another thing to hold the points thereof: Yea, and one thing to hold them falsely, and but in show, and another to hold them truly. One may in word and profession, hold JESUS to have come in the flesh; and yet, in effect, deny it, and so be an Antichrist. None can call JESUS LORD, but 
1. john, 4. 3.  by the Spirit of GOD, (sayeth the Scripture:) and yet the 
1. Cor. 12. 3.  same Scripture witnesseth, That not all who call Him LORD, 
Matth. 7. 21.  shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. If Heretics did not pretend Scripture, they could not greatly deceive; no more than the Philistims had declared Samsons Riddle, if 
judg. 14. 18.  they had not ploughed with his Heifer. And this, indeed, were to yield Satan an easy victory: if, because (for more effectual deceit) he maketh to clothe himself with our Weapons, we should, therefore, fayntlie forsake them, and for-g●…e that which by our LORD is left us, for our only Armour, Rule of our Ways, and Sole Ground, and Pillar of our Faith, (as sayeth Ireneus) so to wander, and perish, 
Lib. 31 cap. 3.  in the Wilderness of men's Inventions.  Philadelphus. 
Verily, (Philomathes) it is exceeding strange, that your Teachers have so far persuaded their Disciples; that reading of Scripture, to Laike persons, (as they call them) is not only unprofitable for resolution, but also dangerous for breeding Errors: Thus verifying of themselves, that saying of Ireneus, speaking of Heretics, Cum 
Lib. 3. cap. 2.  ex Scripturis arguuntur, in accusationem convertuntur ipsarum Scripturarum: that is, When they are argued by Scriptures, they turn then to the accusation of the Scriptures themselves: Albeit, we see the Bereans are highly praised, for searching Scripture, 
Acts, 17. 11.  and examining there-by, what was offered unto them; and their example is registrated by the holy Ghost, for a permanent instruction, in such case, to all succeeding Ages. And it is even monstrous to consider, how far your guides have brought their followers, not only to neglect, but even to contemn; yea, and condemn, in Laike men, the reading of holy Scripture. So, as I can not tell, whether with greater horror, I have often heard their disdainful speeches, against Scripture: or, with dolour, and compassion, I have perceived, how some of them, presuming much of Knowledge; and, otherways, proudly, pert to prattle, in Controversies of Religion, and to talk at Tables, of some cunned, and dismembered Testimonies of the Fathers; yet, in the Sacred BIBLE, were as great strangers, as in the Alcoran.  Philomathes. 
If any man, either speak unreverentlie of Scripture, or condemn the reading thereof, by Laike persons, I am not to make good for that; for myself, I both reverence them, and esteem the reading of them, in Soberness, and Humility, to all sorts of men, not only lawful, but also profitable, and necessary. Neither did that, which I objected to Eubulus, tend to draw men al-to-gether from Scripture: but, seeing that not only all Heretics pretend Scripture, each drawing out thereof, a Sense, for corroboration of their own Opinions: but that there is also a manifold, and great diversity of interpretation amongst all men, (wherethrough it is clear, how doubtful and obscure the meaning of Scripture is.) It would appear, that albeit we have not to forsake, or despise Scripture; yet, for Resolution, which is the true Sense, that we must seek some other Rule. And what can that be else, but that, leaving all other Interpretations, we hold that which the Catholic Church avoucheth.  Eubulus. 
Do you not perceive, (Philomathes) how, 
X.  against all Logic Laws, you reduce our Disputation, to a Circle: and, so, not only you take that for a granted ground, which is the very point in question; but also fall, sensibly, in that same imputation, which you would appear so much to shun. We are disputing, Which is the true Church: and have evinced, That the only sure way to know Her, is by Scripture. So as of necessity, first Scripture must lead us to know (amongst common Acclaymers) which is She, before we can resolve to follow Her interpretation. I heartily yield, that Her interpretation be taken: but, in such Dispute, Who She is, we must first be assured, that it is the Bride which speaketh, and not a masked Harlot, under that name. As for your Objection, of Scriptures obscurity, whereupon, by accusing Scripture, you would build an excuse, of seeking some other Rule, it both contumeliously taxeth GOD, and is also, in itself, sophistical. It is clearly contumelious against GOD, in that CHRIST, commanding to search Scripture, for a clear 
john, 5. ●…9. 2. Pet. 1. 19  witnessing of Him; the holy Ghost affirming by Peter, that the word of Scripture, is a sure and shining word; by Paul, 
2. Tim. 3. 16.  that it is able to make the man of GOD wise, to every good work; and exhorting all men, & praising in all men, the diligent reading, and meditation thereof, there-by to discern spirits, and to prove what is propounded unto them: that David, almost all-where, speaking so divinely 
Psal. 119. ●….  of the plainness, and power thereof, as where-by even a Child may learn to address his ways: Yet some of your men (Philomathes) are not ashamed, disdaynfullie to call it a Leaden Rule, and a Nose of Wax: as if the Almighty, and only wise GOD, had not either wisely anough, or lovingly, provided for the direction of His House: and that men, forsooth, will, or can, find out a more clear and certain way. But, whatsoever obscurity had appeared to be in Scripture; or, how uncertain soever the vain and running Humours of men, might appear to make it, by their diversity of Interpretations; yet this should ever have religiouslietyed us thereto, that our LORD hath left it us, for a Lantern to our Feet, and sole and perpetual Ground of our Faith: studying, therefore, with all humility, cleanness of heart, and earnest prayer, to attain the knowledge thereof: and not proudly, and rebelliously, to take such counsel, as did Israel in the Wilderness: We know not what 
Exod. 32. ●….  is become of this Moses; make us, therefore, gods to go before us. The advise of Augustine, is much more both sound and sober, 
De Doctrine. Christian. Lib. 1. Cap. 37.  than is that of your Churchmen: That in reading of Scripture, if we can not take up the very genuine sense, and meaning of the place, at least, let us not expound that place of Scripture, in a sense repugning to the Analogy of Faith: So shall we be like to a man, who how-so-ever he hath aberred from the direct way, yet he wandreth in the Fields, leading to the Town where-at he would be. I affirmed, (Philomathes) that your Objection, of Scriptures obscurity, was also Sophistical; and thus I clear it: All reason of obscurity, must be either in the matter itself, or in the manner of delivery, or in the weakness of their perception, to whom it is delivered. Of divine things, we acknowledge, that, how-so-ever, for most real and constant existence, they be, of all things, the most certain: yet, that, for their retired eminency, to all creatures, of all things, the most obscure. But, for the manner of delivery, as GOD, in holy Scripture, hath revealed them, we affirm, that all the wisdom, and eloquence of all creatures, (even in a conceived matter) could never have found out so plain a manner; or, so far, and lovingly, have attempered it, to the capacity of man, (as in so high mysteries, and a constant remaining Rule of Faith, was possible.) And yet, how-so-ever they be thus delivered, we acknowledge, that no natural man, (and natural only) is capable of them: For they are spiritually discerned: But the spiritual man, by the 
1. Cor. 2. 14.  Spirit of GOD in him, will discern the things of GOD.  
To reason, then, from the natural obscurity, or retired eminency of the matter, to the manner of delivery: or, from the weakness of man's perception, to conclude of the manner of delivery: or, from the perception of the natural man, to conclude of the perception of the spiritual man, it were always absurd Sophistication. We are bold to say, with the holy Ghost, That how-so-ever to most part 
Matth. 13. 11.  of men, the Mysteries of the Kingdom be spoken in parables; that hearing, they may hear, and not understand; and seeing, they may see, and not perceive: Yet, That Who-so-ever 
john, ●…. 17.  doth the will of the FATHER, they will know the Doctrine, whether it be of GOD, or whether men speak of themselves: That CHRIST HIS true Sheep, know 
john, 10.  His Voice, and know the voice of a Stranger: We avouch, That the words of Wisdom, are all plain to him that will understand▪ 
Proverb. ●…. ●….  and strait, to him that will find Knowledge: That Scorner, seeketh Wisdom, and findeth it not; but Knowledge is easy 
Prov. 13. 6.  to him, that will understand. So, as if the Truth be hid, it is 
2. Cor. 4. 4.  hid to them, whose eyes the Prince of this World hath picked out: and whom GOD, justly, either for misregard, or pride of mind, hath given over to the efficacy of Error, to grope even at noon day. Neither maketh your Sophistical Objection, of diversity of Interpretation, against this: for, how-so-ever, many particular places in Scripture, appear still difficile, and doubtful to us, which but know in part, and prophesy in part: yet we affirm, (with Augustine) 
De doct. Chr●… lib. 2. cap. 6. & ●….  That even in those things which are plainly set down in Scripture, are all things to be found, which contain Faith, and Rules of living; and that nothing, almost, is ripped out of the most obscure parts, which will not be found in some other place most plainly spoken.  Philomathes. 
To grant you even all that you have said, either of the plainness, or plentiful●…esse of holy Scripture; yet what shall you gain there-by, against our Questioner? or, how shall you justify the imputations, of want of Care. Skill, or Conscience, laid on him by you? seeing both our Church confesseth, that the Scripture showeth which be the true Marks of the Church; and such Notes as are here brought by our man, he proveth them all from Scripture.  Eubulus. 
How either proper, or pertinent, your Poet's 
XI.  Marks are, which he bringeth, and how well he proveth them from Scripture, or otherways, we shall see, GOD willing, in the particular examination of each; where-by all his Corn shall be found but Chaff; and that careless, skillessie, or fraudfully, he hath fled the only demonstrative Mark, to seduce the simple, with Topical shows. You say, your Church acknowledgeth, that by Scripture, the true Marks of the Church are known. But (Philomathes) they fall never to say so, but when they are reduced to such straits, as either they must say it, or be snared, For their common Doctrine is well anough known, which can so little consist with this, which you have now granted, as the one, evidently, over-throweth the other. For, do not your men make all the authority of Scripture to depend so far on the Church her suffrage, as that therefore only you are sure, such & such to be canonicke Scriptures, because the Church hath so determined? Thus, monstrously, you make one, and the same, to be both the Mother and the Daughter, and of one.  Philomathes. 
But, thus, you tax Augustine no less than us, 
Cont. Epist. Fundam●….  who affirmeth, that he would not believe Scripture, if the authority of the Church did not move him.  Eubulus. 
You deceive, (Philomathes) by concluding Theticallie, 
XII.  and absolutely, upon that which Augustine Hypotheticallie propoundeth: and, so, you, unskilfully, confound divers Cases. For, first, inducing of an Infidel, to believe Scripture, the Authority of the Church, is a great Motive; or rather, (as Augustine calleth it) a Commotive, and Opportanum inquirendi exordium: that is, A commodious entry, to 
Lib. de vtilit●….  inquire by. Now, from this special Case, and quality of Case, to infer, That the man by this Commotive, first induced, had still thereafter no other, or greater Warrant, for his Belief of Scripture, but the Authority of the Church, which first induced him: it were no better Logic, than to conclude of the Samaritans, That they never had any better Foundation of their Faith, than the Report of their Woman from the Well.  
The Authority of the Church, may, and will often, induce an Infidel, to reverence, and believe Scripture: but so, as having come thus farre, then, in the community of that Church, to discern lawful, from unlawful worship; and, orthodox, from heretical professors, the Scriptures only must have place: as in a case, wherein to allege the Church's authority, were extremely ridiculous, it being the very point in question, what company is the Church. And I showed you before, how your men are always deceived, or at least, labour to deceive others, by confounding the case of the Church considered, absolutely, and in relation to Foreigners, and Infidels, and reasoning from it, (so considered) to the deciding of debate, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the Church. In the first, the common notes are discretive, and the common authority, a commotive to induce; but in the other, there is no manner of way, but the Scriptures, as out of the Fathers I have cleared. And, now, (●…lomathes) to return to our poyn●… whence this your ●…hreedbare Objection, from Augustine, hath driven ●…ee. I pray you, if your men are forced to confess, That the Marks of the Church, are known by Scripture; why flee they from having all, both their Doctrine and Dealing, examined by that same Rule? What a shameless Sophistry is this, to ●…ject Scripture, in the particular trial of every: Article of Faith; and yet, for a few wrested, and perv●…ed Sentences, where-by to prove some bastard▪ and beg●…yling Notes, therefore, impudently, to all eadge, That they, for sooth, do clear their Church, by Scripture? As if in all Scripture, the holy Ghost had but given some Notes, of a Company, where to seek our Faith; and no●… clearly set down the Faith, which we have to hold, and where-by to discern the Company which we have to cleave unto.  
Your Cardinal Bellarmine, in answering to some clear Places of the Fathers, nearly pintching him, (namely, of Augustine) is forced to flee to this, which you, also, 〈◊〉 taken 
De 〈◊〉 ●…el. cap. 1.  for your last Refuge: That the Scripture, indeed, teacheth what are the Notes of the Church. And I have, verily, reason, to thank both you, and him for it: If (as I presume of you) so he, also, had either willingly, or ingenuously yielded it. And, though you had forgotten this piece of your Armour, yet I was presently to have put you in mind thereof; for the clear advantage I have in it, to conclude, aga●…nst your 〈◊〉 all this point of our Dispueation. I am sure, that 〈◊〉 ●…o is so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ●… Scho●…Man, will not (against Na●…re, ●…nd all Schools) affirm of GOD, the most perfect Doctor▪ Th●… He 〈◊〉, (Obseuru●… p●…r obscurius) that which is obscure, by any thing which is more obscure. For all knowledge proceedeth Ex natura noturibus: that is, of things which are, by nature, more notore▪ than are those things, which they are brought to notify. Thus, then, I conclude, upon your own Position: That which cleareth any thing, must itself be more clear▪ But the Scripture cleareth, which are the Notes of the Church. Therefore, as the Notes, where-by the Church is known, must be more clear, than the Church, which is known by them: So, the Scripture, which teacheth those Notes, must be more clear than both. The Scripture, which is the Voice of the LORD of the House, and Great Shepherd of the Sheep, truly taught, and reverently received, is the only, sure, and evident Ensign of the House, and Flock. And, who is it that knoweth not this▪ That the Company is always discerned by the Colours, and not the Colours by the Company? Now, consider, (Philomathes) whether your men's Objections, Of Scriptures obscurity, do fall, and in what uprightness they are propounded: And, whether your Questioner be sincerely set, to find that which he seemeth to seek for: or, rather, fraudfully, to divert the Simple, from the only Light, which leadeth to it?  
And, some of your own Writers, convinced by clear Truth, are forced to confess, what the more impudent sort so much oppugn.  
Andrea's Fricius, thus speaketh:  
DEUS Author est Verbi Sui, quod tanti facit, ut Coelum & Terra facilius transitura sint, quam Verba Ipsius pessum itura. Ille est qui tuetur Verbum Suum, qui authoritatem tribuit, qui illud in dignitatem vindicat: qui per Spiritum S. obsignat in cordibus hominum. Testimonium quidem Ecclesia, Spiritu DEI aff●…ata dare potest Verbo & Doctrinae: hanc scilicet quam ●…am inde ab Apostolis quafis per manus ac●…pisset, & non ali●…m esse à DEO prolitam: Authoritatem ver●… Illi ●…ribuere nemo potest praeter DEUM ipsum, qui est Author illius, Illustrator, Defensor, Propug●…ator.  
Again, the same Author, Lib. 4. de Ecclesia, Cap. 7. 
Ecclesiam necesse est accommodari ad Verbum non Verbum ad Ecclesiam; Verbum Fundamentum est, Ecclesia aedificium in illo collocatum.   
Gabriel Biel, Lib. 3. Sentent. Distinct. 26. 
Scripturae canonicae, absque omni approbatione Ecclesiae, ex natura ●…ei sunt immutabiles, & immutabiliter verae.  Hosius, in Confess. Cap. 16. 
Non aliter nos credimus Evangelio, nisi propter Vocem DEI intus loquentis, et nos docentis.   
So as (Philomathes) if you will not believe us, yet your own men may tell you, Whether your Poet hath wandered himself, and would draw others, with him, in Darkness.  Philadelphus. 
He will have us, to seek after the Church, as Children, at Chacke-blynd-man, grope after their Fellows. For, first, he would pick out our Eyes, or syle us from seeing: and, then, forsooth, set us a-searching. But they who do evil, hate the Light: and the Church of Rome, had rather choose, That this Debate were never decided, than that the clear convincing Mark were brought, where-by they might be found out, who they are.  

Through open Street, with lighted Lamp in hand,  
A vain surveyning Sophist walked at Noon:  
whereof, when one the Motive did demand,  
His rugged Reason thus he rendered soon:  
Amongst Men, more mad than Mamacks, by the Moon,  
I search (said he) if I can find one wise.  
Ass (th'other said) thine Head is out of tune:  
Canst thou discern one, though thou sawst him thrice?  
But (more) your man is jump set in his matter,  
As he who sought his drowned Wife up the Water.   Eriphilus. 
Your Sonnets (Philadelphus) are very sarcasticke: but where-by (if our man's Questions be not better answered, than by such cutting Checks) the Scorn, in end, will turn to be your own.  Eubulus. 
Do you well (Eriphilus) to be angry? is only 
XIII.  your man privileged to be a Poet? and is he so (haeres ex ass) universal Heir to all the Muses, as that we have no part, nor portion, in them? Et nos quoque la●…rum momordimus. But, let us see which of us shall fall to pack up the Scorn: and having already cleared, what is the only sure Note of the Church, let us now more nearly tread your man's traces, in these his metricke Marks, and try what weight they carry. First, (Philomathes) read the Inscriptions of his Sections, for up-taking his whole Drift. Then will we (God willing) examine each of them severally, and shortly.  Philomathes. 
These are the capital words of all his Sections, 1. Catholic, 2. Continuance, 3. Visible, 4. Unity, 5. Holy, 6. Heretics.  Eubulus. 
His whole Rhyme (as I remember) ●…unneth on 
XIV.  two main points: the one, to prove, that the Church of Rome, is the true Church of CHRIST: the other, to show, that our Churches are heretical. The first, he would conclude thus:  
To whatsoever company, the notes of Catholic, (or Universality) Continuance, visibility, Unity, and Holiness, do properly conveane, that is the only true Church of CHRIST. 
But, to the Church of Rome, all these do properly conveane. Therefore, the Church of Rome, is the only true Church of CHRIST.   Eriphilus. 
If you can clearly lose me that K●…ot, (Eubulus) you may, perhaps, induce me▪ to take more of your counsel. But, I suspect, you are once snared: for, of the proposition, none can make question: the assumption will bear out itself; and so, I hope, the Conclusion shall stand steadfast.  Eubulus. 
And, if I shall clear the proposition, to be so 
XV.  vain, and Sophistical, as, though the propounder were here present, to plead for it, yet I would, GOD willing, breed him such Business, to maintain it, as should run him quite out of all his rhyming humour. And, if I show his Assumption also to be evidently false, what will you make (Eriphilus) of your man's miserable Conclusion? The vanity, & sophistical deceit of his Proposition, I will best discover, as I shall answer to each of these his Marks severally; according as he bringeth them in order, so by an Induction, to strengthen his false Assumption. And yet, even thus I fear, (Eriphilus) that you shall recall your liberal Offer, and be never a whit the more subject to my counsel. But Wisdom will be justified of her own Children. Philomathes, read on.  Philomathes. 
Then harken what he sayeth of the first Mark, Catholic.   

CHAPTER III.  

CATHOLIC.  
INTO your Bible I have read,  
The Church must through the World be spread: 
Boni Cath●…ci sunt, qui fidem integram & bor●… mores servant. August to●…. 4. in Qu●…stion. super Ma●…th. Idem Augustin Tom. 1. lib. d●… v●…ra religion. cap. 7. Co●…endar Ecclesia cath●…lica soci●…tatem, qua lumen Christia●… Religionis & Scripturar●…, Regul●…que Veritatis 〈◊〉.   
For CHRIST His Apostles sent,  
With Power, and Commandment,  
That to all Nations they should go,  
To preach, and to baptise also.  
Who hath done this, to know I wished?  
For that is, sure, the Church of CHRIST.  
And, for Exemple, let m●…e know:  
And, if thou canst, I pray thee show,  
What Compànie did take in hand,  
The first Conversion of our Land? 
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in 〈◊〉 non abol●…tur, seips●… & postcritat●… cogi, Papa●… pr●… Antichristo, & Roma●… pro vera Babylonia agnoscere. Bernardus, super Psal. 91. lib. 4. ad Euge●…m.   
And of our Countries everywhere,  
Throughout the World, far and near?  
If this was not the Church of Rome,  
Then will I be converted soon.  
saint Paul, in his Epistle sayeth,  
The Romans had the Catholic Faith:  
Saying, It was renowned,  
Spoken of, and published,  
Throughout the World, over all,  
Catholic, Universal.  
If yours were ever so,  
Then to your Churches will I go.  
So sayeth the Prophet Malachi,  
There shall be offered, far and nigh,  
A clean Oblation, and Sacrifice,  
From the place the Sun doth rise,  
To the going down of the same.  
And what is that? I pray thee name.  
If it be not the Holy Mass,  
I'll be a Protestant, as I was.  
In the eighteenth Psalm I find,  
The whole World should hear their sound.  
If these Marks you do not want,  
Then, presently, I shall recant.   Eubulus. 
For mine acquytall, in that whereof I gave to 
●…  Eriphilus, some more hope, than, I think, he either did conceive, or would be willing, I should make good: and to show the vain sophistry of the Proposition of your man's main Argument, so far as concerneth this his first Mark, of Universality, till I come lyke-wayes upon the rest. I say, (Philomathes) that Universality can be no proper Mark of the Church: yea, that it can not be any Mark at all. And, that, therefore, your man's main Proposition is, in this point, vain, and sophistical.  Eriphilus. 
Indeed, Sir, b●… this your Assertion, you make me hope so little, that you shall make your word good, as I am assuredly persuaded, that you are worthy to be burned, for a most detestable Heretic: who dare, so partly, deny, that which, I think, never one of your Sect durst ever openly gaynesay, to this hour. Will you draw me, think you, to follow your counsel, in aught, who thus denyeth a special Article of our Creed; and is so audacious, as to affirm, that the Church is not Catholic?  Eubulus. 
I did suspect, (Eriphilus) that you would kindle at my Position: and, therefore, (for a more gentle receipt) 
II.  I, even of purpose, turned my talk to Philomathes. But, I will calmly cool your heat, if I can. I deny no Article of the Creed. I both confess, and believe, the Catholic Church. But, (that I may, yet once, make you more aghast) in that, I do believe it, I, even therefore, deny Catholic, or Universality, to be a proper Mark of the Church; yea, or any Mark at all: For, faith is the evidence of things, which are seen: but, the universality of the Church, is apprehended 
Heb. ●…1. 1▪  by Faith: therefore, the universality of the Church, is not seen. Now, if it be of things, which are not seen, but are believed, it can not be a mark, where-by, here to discern the true Church. And, because, (Eriphilus) you sought for Syllogisms, I thus reason: All Marks are seen, or fall, under some Sense▪ but Universality is not seen, neither falleth under any Sense: Therefore, Universality can be no Mark. The Proposition of this Argument, as it is most certain, so is it confessed by your Cardinal Bellarmine, in his second chapter, De notis Eccles. The Assumption, none will deny, who have any Sense: For all Schools hold this for an undoubted Principle, That no Universal, as it is Universal, is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, or falleth under Sense; because it is properly the Object of Reason. Much less, then, doth the Object of Faith, (which transcendeth both Sense and Reason) fall under Sense▪ And, so, can never be any discerning Mark, betwixt Acclaymers.  
Thus, (Eriphilus) except you have aught, where-by to infringe mine Argument, your Man his main Proposition, in so far, as concerneth this his Mark of Universality, is both vain, and sophistical. Vain, because he bringeth that for a discerning Mark, which falleth not under Sense; and, so, can be no Mark at all. Sophistical, for that, of that which we confess, to be a true Attribute of the Church, he would conclude, a discerning Mark. But all Attributes, are not Marks. Now (Eriphilus) refel mine Argument, or grant me, I pray you, some respite from burning: for, without merit, you have al-readie burned too many, upon humour.  Philadelphus. 
You could not away (Eriphilus) with my Sonnets: but, as I think, Eubulus Syllogisms are no less pricking.  Philomathes. 
But, I pray you, Eubulus, how-so-ever your Reasons are subtle, and, I can not deny, but builded upon confessed Grounds: and, how-so-ever that Catholic is an Attribute (as you call it) of the Church, & is apprehended by Faith: yet, seeing that the most approved Fathers, in their Disputations, against the Heretics of their times, do press them sore, with the Authority of the Catholic Church, which they ordinarily oppose unto them; it would appear, that they had some reason to do so: and, that even Universality is, in some respect, a Mark of the true Church. Neither see I, how you can disapproove our men's Argument, against you, brought from this Note, except you will condemn those Famous, and Ancient Fathers also, as having vainly, and sophistically, reasoned for the Truth.  Eubulus. 
To clear you (Philomathes) of all doubt herein, 
III.  and, to free ourselves, from any, either conscience of our own guiltiness, wherefore we would reject this Reason; or, of any unreverend Opinion, of those Fathers, who, as you truly affirm, in some Cases, and Respects, did use it; the aequivocation of this word [Catholic] must be opened up, where-by your Doctors, willingly, illude, and where-by your simple ones are, unwittingly, deceived. For the Catholic Church, is of the Fathers so called, either properly, and absolutely, or improperly, and but in some special Respect, and Relation. Absolutely, and most properly, the Catholic Church, is the whole number, of whatsoever time or place, who have been, are, or shall be united unto CHRIST, their Head, and live in Him, by His Spirit; whether here, on Earth, fight; or hence, in Heaven, triumphing. Absolutely, and less properly, the Catholic Church, is the whole militant company here on Earth, of whatsoever Kindred, Tongue, or Nation, under one, and the same common Ensign, of Christian Profession; whether Hypocrites, or true Professors; whether pure, or corrupt, Worshippers; whether Orthodox, or Heretical; as even Bellarmine argueth, Cap. 7. De Notis Eccles. In any of which Cases, she is believed, and (in her Universality) falleth not under Sense. Improperly, again, and in opposite Relation, the Church is called CATHOLIC, for two Respects: The one, In opposite Relation to the Church of the jews, which was limited within the compass of one People, and of one Region: the Christian Church, no more so confined, but spread, indifferently, over all, is called the CATHOLIC CHURCH. Neither thus, because that either always all People's Vniversallie, or most part of Men, embrace the Gospel: but, because the Entry is opened, and offered, indifferently, unto all. The other Respect, was the opposite Relation, to heretical Companies, separating themselves, by Error, from the common Body of the Church, & Truth maintained there-in. And in this last Respect, it is, that almost the Fathers commonly speak of it; calling the Community of the Visible Church, retaining Truth, (in relation to particular heretical Companies) the CATHOLIC CHURCH. And, in this Sense, opposing, ordinarily, to arrogant men, the Authority, Multitude, Consent, Succession, etc. of the Catholic Church, as you have alleged, Philomathes. But in this manner of the Father's reasoning, two things are carefully to be marked, whereby the Fathers shall be found both pertinently, and prudently, to have used this Argument; & where by, your men now, shall be seen evidently, and impudently, to abuse it. The first, is that state and condition of the Church, wherein this Argument hath place, according as it was when the Fathers used it. The second, is, what weight, or moment, the Fathers placed in it. The state of the Church, then, was in common, pure, holding Truth, and by the force thereof, purging, or expelling all inbred, or accressing evils, or Heresies. So, as then, though by an improper Speech, yet the Communalitie of the Church, keeping Truth, in relation to a few Declyners, might not impertinently be called the Catholic Church, and her authority, might well have been opposed unto them. But, who, in a plain contrary state, and condition of the Church, when Error obtaineth in common, and Truth is afflicted, and borne down; yet, without consideration of the altered State and Condition, would still use the same reason, from Multitude, and whatsoever, or how-so-ever an obtaining State; he were a ridiculous Sophister, confounding divers, and distinct times, and cases. To reason from the state of the Church in Ephesus, (wherein evil was not tolerated) to 
Revel. 2.  the state of the Church in Smirna, (wherein Heretics waxed proud, and despised the abject state of true Professors) it were sophistical: but much more sophistical, to reason from the state in Ephesus, to the state in Pergamus; when 
Rev. 12.  the true Church dwelled, even where Satan's Throne was; known to GOD, though hid from the worldly sort. To reason from the Woman clothed with the Sun, treading the Moon, and crowned with twelve Stars; to the same Woman, lurking in the Wilderness, it concludeth not: for, as, in the first Case, the Fathers had reason, and did wisely, to convince by all Advantages; so, while the Case is clearly altered, (according as by Scripture was foretold) 
●…. Thess. 2.  and Antichrist hath obtained a Throne, even in the Temple; when the Evil, or Gangrene, in the body, and having even over-gone the Body, in common, will contend against the healthsome remnant; then are we both to leave improper Speeches, and, wisely, to distinguish, deceitfullie-confounded Time's, and Cases: and properly to plead, That the Gangrene in the Body, and even affecting, and over-going the Body, in common, yet is but an Adherent, or accressing Evil, in, but not of, the Body: and, That the healthsome remnant, retaining the Life of the Head, and, by virtue thereof, resisting the over-going Gangrene, is the true Catholic Church.  
And, this altered Condition, of Time, and of the Church, in time, which maketh the Argument, sometime, pertinently, used, to be now ridiculous: beside, that both SCRIPTURE hath foretold it, the FATHERS did see the working on of it, and, we have, abundantly often, proved, and still offer, to prove it. It is clear, also, by that other Point, which I propounded, to be observed, in this reasoning of the FATHERS: namely, What weight, or Moment, they placed in that same Argument. Wherein, they even profess, That they used it not, as an infallible demonstrative Mark, but as a Motive: which, being joined with clear TRVETH, was worthy to be regarded: but, which, either without TRVETH, or against TRVETH, should carry no Credit.  
This is evident, by Augustine, using this same Argument, 
Contr. Ep▪ fund.  against Faustus Manichaeus, and opposing the Authority of the Catholic Church, Multitude, Antiquity, Succession, etc. to his bare bragging of the TRVETH. Which TRVETH, notwithstanding, (sayeth that Father) if you can show, so clearly, as it can not be gaynesayde, it is to be praeferred to all these things, where-by I am holden within the Catholic Church. If the name of the Catholic Church, were, in this place, properly to be taken; then should Augustine's supposed Case, be ridiculous. For Truth can never be found anywhere else, but within the Catholic Church, taken properly. Where-by it is clear, that the Catholic Church, in this, and such other places, is taken for the Communalitie of the visible Church: which, having Truth, should be regarded. But to whose Authority, not the less, the clear Truth, found with never so few Holder's, is to be preferred. For, We ought not to consent, no, not to Catholic Bishops, (sayeth the same Father) if they hold any 
De Vnitat. Eccl. contr. Pa●…l.  Opinion contrary to Canonicke Scriptures. Where-by is manifest, both in what Sense the Fathers reasoned, from the Authority of the Catholic Church, and what force they placed in that Argument: and that, how-so-ever by them, and in that time, and case of a Church, it was not inconvenientlie used; yet that now, in so far different a state, still to usurp it in a like manner, were extreme impudency. This Chrysostome did both foresee, and gave warning of it: that the altered 
In Math. homil. 49.  state of the Church, behoved to bring men to a more near and proper Rule of Examination, (as in his Testimonies, above cited, is clear.) In that, how-so-ever, before that Heresy obtained place in the Church, and the abomination of desolation stood also (in sanctis Ecclesiae locis) in the holy places of the Church, many ways were to discern the Church: (as, while Truth held place in common, was Universality improperly taken, Multitude, Consent, Succession, &c) yet now, after that heretical contagion hath infected the Body in common, no manner of way is to discern the true Church, (amidst the corrupted community of the Church) but only the Scriptures. You are greatly deceived, (Philomathes) if you esteem the Church, therefore, to be called CATHOLIC; either because always the most part of men shall come in to her, and embrace the Profession: or yet, That of such as come in to her, the most part shall always hold the Truth. But, She is CATHOLIC, because her Gates that are now casten open, to all Kindred's, Tongues, and Nations; that the righteous Nation may enter in. And, how-so-ever, that neither most part come in, neither of such as are in her, is the most part of her, or saved: yet all, universallie, who are saved, must both be in her, and of her. And, how-so-ever, in her, most part keep not Truth, yet no Truth is, but in her. If (as your Men are al-readie perceiving, and, there-upon, are gnawing their Tongues, for sorrow) the Truth preached by us, take▪ in short time, such success, as the Waters of your Euphrates shall be dried up: and if Multitude, and Consent of Nations, shall be with 
Revel. 16. 12.  us; will you, therefore, yield us the Title of the Catholic Church? If multitude of Holder's, be always a sure Mark of the true Church, how sayeth the Scripture, That All shall follow the Beast? And you confess, That Antichrist, when he cometh, shall obtain Vniversallie. Now, if in Antichrist his usurpation, Universality shall be no Note of the Church, how see you not, That very unjustly you lay it always against us? and, That whatsoever Universality you can allege for your Pope, it exeemeth him not from being that Antichrist, except he clear himself, by better Defences? Thus, I hope, I have cleared, That we neither disprove the Fathers, reasoning against Heretics, in opposing to them, the Authority of the Catholic Church: and yet, that you have not, therefore, any, either Right in their Argument, or Ground there-upon, to make CATHOLIC a discerning Mark of the Church. So, as your man's main Proposition, (so far as concerneth this Note of Universality) is still sophistical, and vain. But, now, if it were even a discerning Mark, as your Men would make it, yet let us try, how justly your Church doth vindicate it, to herself: and let us examine your Man's main Assumption in that part.  Philadelphus. 
As you have dressed his Proposition, in that part, I think all labour against his Assumption were idle: 
IV.  For, if CATHOLIC can be no discerning Mark of the Church, no, not any Mark at all, (as you have, at length, and evidently, evinced) how can it be Rome's Mark?  Eubulus. 
Yet (Philadelphus) I will omit nothing, where-by I may possibly induce Eriphilus, to take more of my counsel. But, in refelling this your Man's Assumption of his main Argument, where-by he appropriateth to Rome, the Title of the Catholic Church, I must protest, (Eriphilus) that it be no praejudice to my matter, that you do so confidently call yourselves Catholics, and your Company, the Catholic Church: else, if you will have this your usurping of that name, to carry any weight; and, that, therefore, you will have us to account so of you; I desire of you the same aequitablenesse, in our Case. That, because we both esteem, and call ourselves, The Catholic Church, and Catholic Men; that, therefore, you will hold us for such. Or, if you consider, that an Argument, à dici ad esse, concludeth not; and that, therefore, pertinently, the Logicians place, before their Categories, the Distinction (〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉) of things that are said, and of things that are. Then, let us lay aside, what either you, of yourselves, or we, of ourselves, do partially speak, or arrogantly arrogate; and let us try, what is true of us both.  Philomathes. 
Your Protestation is most aequitable: For, a bare Claim, except it be instructed, can make no Title.  Eubulus. 
Then, (Philomathes) in that part of your Poet's 
V.  Rhyme, which is inscrybed, CATHOLIC, and which you did lastlie read; besides the Proposition, which I have refelled, he assumeth, That the Note of Catholic, or Universality, conveaneth properly, to the Church of Rome. Which false Assumption, he seeketh to sustain, by four Reasons; the first of which, he concludeth thus:  
What Company did take in hand, and, accordingly, first performed, the publishing of the Gospel, thorough the World, and converted all Nations, to the Faith; that must be the Company, to which the Title of CATHOLIC, or UNIVERSALITY, properly, belongeth: and that Company, is the Catholic Church.  
But, the Church of Rome, only, did both under-take, and perform this. Therefore, the Church of Rome is the Catholic Church; and, to her, properly, that Note belongeth.  
Now, here, some Poëticall inspiration hath transported your man, to give us such, whether a definition, or description, of Catholic, as till now, none ever heard of. We esteemed, (as I have showed) that the Catholic Church had been that company of whatsoever Time, Place, or Nation, which, in the communion of one, and the same Spirit, joined to their Head CHRIST, do make up the fullness of His mystical Body; whether in the Heavens, triumphing, or, as yet, here, in their course, fighting; or, in another consideration, we call the Catholic Church, all of all Kindred's, Tongues, and Nations, who under one, and the same common Ensign, of Christian Profession, give their names to CHRIST, and are in the count of His House here; whether they be only in it, or also of it: or, to speak improperly, as, in some Cases, the Fathers do, the Catholic Church is the community of the Church, holding Truth in relation, to Declyners therefrom. But your Poet, appropriating this Title, to the first Converters, hath forfaulted from this Dignity, all the Converted by them: And, thus, his Proposition, is not only false, but even ridiculous. For, how-so-ever the Converters of others, by an improper Speech, may be called Catholics; as any particular Church, holding Truth, is called a Catholic Church; or any faithful Man, a Catholic man, because they are true parts of the Catholic Church, in which only is Truth, Life, and Salvation: yet, to call any particular, either person, order of persons, or company, the Catholic man, persons, or Church, it is an insolently arrogant Speech. His Assumption I distinguish. If he affirm, That Rome first converted all Nations to the Faith, and was the first publisher of the Gospel, it is so shamelessly false, as, I think, Satan might blush, to broach out such a Lie. How did Paul glory in the 
Rom. 15. 1●….  LORD, (and that before he did see Rome) that from Arabia, to Illyricum, he had filled all with the Gospel of CHRIST; and that, most part, where CHRIST had not been named, not building on any other man's foundation? Have all the other eleven Apostles, besides Peter, forgotten, think you, their LORD's Commission; of whom, we have no certain record, that ever any did see Rome? If, converting Nations to the Faith, might appropriate to any Church,  
down of the same.  
But, no Company offereth to GOD, a clean Sacrifice, from the rising of the Sun, to the setting of the same, but the Church of Rome.  
Therefore, the Church of Rome, is only, and properly, the Catholic Church.  
The Proposition, of this his Syllogism, he taketh from the Prophet Malachi. His Assumption, he proveth, strongly, forsooth, by an undeniable Truth; That, Only, the Church of Rome, offereth all-where, the holy Sacrifice of the Mess. Which, he maketh no question, but that is the only clean Sacrifice, offered to GOD, all-where, from the rising, to the setting, of the Sun. And, thus, he thinketh, his Conclusion can not fail him.  Eriphilus. 
And so I think, also, (Eubulus) and, I hope, shall think so still, for any Answer you are able to make thereunto: how-so-ever you would seem, forsooth, to make a very light account of it; and would, according to your manner, laugh-over those Arguments, which most pintch you.  Eubulus. 
Then, advert what I have to say, and think, 
XII.  sign, what you please. The Condition of CHRIST His Church, set down by Malachi, (whence the Poet bringeth his Proposition) I acknowledge, according to the Prophet his sense, and words; which your man (Eriphilus) resumeth deceitfully. The words are these; From the ●…sing of the Sun, to the going down thereof, My Name 
Malach. 1. 11.  shall be great amongst the Gentiles, and, in all places, Incense shall be brought to My Name, and a clean Gift. These clear, and distinct words, either ignorantly, or fraudfully, your man obscureth, perverteth, and involveth, to darken the difference betwixt expiatory Sacrifices, or, Sacrifices for sin, and other Oblations, of Praise, or due Worship: which, both, in their divers Types, are most distinctly put; and, in the Anagogicke Verity, must be diverselie considered. And, this, your man doth, to bring some Colour to his Assumption, which is impudently false. Neither will the Offering of your Mess, (which is neither clean, holy, nor a Sacrifice, but a most sacrilegious profanation, of an holy Sacrament, and the most detestable Idolatry, that ever was defended for good Worship) appropriate to Rome, the Offering, all-where, of Incense, and a clean Gift, to the LORD. 
Rev. 1. 6.   
Are you so shallow a Man, in Scripture, (Eriphilus) that you know not, how all true Christians, anie-where, being made Kings, and Priests, to GOD, in CHRIST, do offer 
Hosca. 14. 3. Rom. 1●…. 1.  up to Him, the Sacrifices of Praise; even the Calves of the Lips? Do we not offer up ourselves, an holy, living, acceptable Sacrifice; even our reasonable Service? Whatsoever works of Charity we, in the fear and love of GOD, perform; are they not Sacrifices? and, accepted in CHRIST? To do good, and to distribute, forget 
Heb. 13. 16.  not; for with such Sacrifices, GOD is well pleased, sayeth the Apostle. Is not the Liberality of the Philippians, 
Philip. 4. 18.  by the same Apostle, called, A Sacrifice of sweet Savour, and acceptable to GOD? Your Man his whole Senses have been drowned in his Chalice, when, so doltishlie, he forgot himself, as, to leave no clean Offering in the Church, but his monstrous Mess. As for any other Sacrifice for 
Heb. 7. 27.  sin, but that one, and once for all, offered, we acknowledge not: So, as your Mess may be well relegated, to sick Swine, for whom (upon conveaned price) your Men have mumbled out a million.  
Now, as your Questioner playeth the Cavillatour, both in that he confoundeth divers kinds of Sacrifices, and, also, that he acknowledgeth not, (with clear Scripture) any other clean Oblation, in the Christian Church, but the Mischief of the Mess: So, he illudeth, moreover, by reasoning from Sacrifice, and Oblation, figuratively, and allegorically, spoken of▪ to Sacrifice, and Oblation, in propriety of signification: from typical speeches, concluding not allegorically, but properly; and, that, most ignorantly▪ & foolishly. The Prophets, fore-speaking of CHRIST His Kingdom, do, ordinarily, express the Condition thereof, under Legal Types, where-by it was foreshadowed. Which is so evident, in all their manner of Dispensation, as it is marvel, if any dare pretend, to misknow it. Speaking of the Conversion of Nations, a●…d, of their Association to the Church, they prophesy, That all Nations shall come yearly, and worship at JERUSALEM. Which, to understand properly, it were to be a proper Ass in Divinity. For, expressing of the great measure, of Light, and Knowledge, under the Gospel, they prophesy, That all men shall see Visions, and dream Dreams: to declare, that 
●…el, 2. 28.  the Worship of GOD, shall be no more tied to any one place; but that all-where, who worship Him, in Spirit, and Truth, shall be accepted. Isaia telleth of three Altars, to 
●…, 19 19  be erected; one in judea, one in Assyria, and one in Egypt. And thus, to show how the worship of GOD, should be no more confined within the jewish nation, or precinct of Canaan, Malacbie foretelleth, That Incense, and a clean Gift, shall be offered in all places, and, that the Name of the LORD shall be great, from the rising of the Sun, to the going-downe thereof. And, how will you, out of this, make your monstrous Mess? or, out of your Mess, make the miserable Mongers thereof, to be the Catholic Church, except, first, you make Mules of Men? Or, is there any, either Shame, or Sincerity in disputing, when, upon typical Predictions, Conclusions are inferred, in propriety of Signification?  Philadelphus. 
You have (Eubulus) made this their Sacrifice so unsavoury, that I long to be from it. I pray you, what is his fourth Reason?  Eubulus. 
Because (Philadelphus) the smell of the Romish Incense, 
XIII.  I perceive, is to you somewhat loathsome; for your Refreshment, you shall now have an Argument, to laugh at; if this may not move Eripbilus, to count it in vincible. Advert, then, a deadly Demonstration. David sayeth, in the eyghteenth Psalm, And their sound went thorough all the Earth: Therefore, the Church of Rome, is the Catholic Church. If one were set, in scorn, to play a part, to the Party's disgrace, whom he representeth; could he have fished out, think you, a finer Argument, than this is? David, in the nynteenth Psalm, (which some make the eyghteenth) showeth, how GOD hath, in His works, so plainly manifested Himself, as no Nation in the world, can pretend any excuse of ignorance. Paul, in his Epistle to the Romans, for taking from obstinate jews, all excuse, of their induration against 
Rom. 10. 1●….  the Gospel, because the same was so plainly, largely, and powerfully preached; he, to this end, citeth, and very pertinently, the words of David. But, I pray you, by what Logic will it follow here-upon, that the Church of Rome, is the Catholic Church; more than the Devil, and his angels, who 
job. 1. 7. and 1. Pet. 5. 8.  compass the Earth, continually, roaring, & seeking whom they may devour? or, then, the busy Emissaries of Satan, who compass Sea and Land, to make a Proselyte, and make 
Matth. 23. 1●…▪  him doublie the child of the Devil? We affirm, That the Gospel, at first, was so plainly, and plentifully, offered to the World, as, that, most justly, for the contempt thereof, and because men loved Lies, better than the Truth; therefore GOD gave men over, to strong delusion, & effectualness of error: whereby Satan obtained a throne in the Temple, all the Earth following the Beast. And, that now again, that man of Sin, by the revived light of the Gospel, is so clearly revealed, as, who will not come out of Babylon, are willingly blinded, and worthily partakers of her judgements. And now, (Philomathes) as I think, I have answered to all your Rymer's four Reasons, where-by he would conclude CATHOLIC, to be a Mark of the Church, and proper to Rome. If you have aught to reply, speak it: otherways, let us hear more of your Man his Music.  Philadelphus. 
No: but, by your leave (Eubulus) my Song was first tabled. And you shall have it short: For it is in honour of the Church of Rome, which is daily shortening.  

If Catholic, can not a Mark be counted,  
And shamleslie, as if it be assumed:  
If vainly Rome, vaunts now of Virtue's wont,  
When she is but a Carrion consumed:  
If o'er the saints she proudly hath presumed:  
Her Sacrifices, if they be but sin:  
That Mother-Whoore, if duly She be doomed:  
If all Her Silver, turned be in Tin:  
If Apostaticke, more than Apostolic:  
She claims, unkyndlie, to be called Catholic.   Philomathes. 
Whatsoever might be replied to you, (Eubulus) yet I will not insist farther, at this tyme. But, seeing that Philadelphus is so poeticallie disposed, as he must vent his Verses; I will sharpen him, with a new Subject, where-on to meditate his next Sonnet. Thus, then, our Man speaketh, of CONTINVANCE.   

CHAPTER IU.  

CONTINUANCE.  
THis is another Mark, most sure, 
●…ut yet, in it ●…l be●… a tenth, it shall re●…e, and shall eaten, as a ●…-tree, and as Oak, whose stance is in ●…, when they ●… their leaves: ●…he holy seed, ●…ll be the sub●…ce thereof. ●…sai. 6. 13. ●…onsuetudo ●…tre non debet, ●… minus veritas consuet●… 〈◊〉 veritate vetu●… est error●…, 〈◊〉 propter 〈◊〉 errore sequ●… veritatem. Cyprian, ad Pompe●…. Nova et p●…grina censenda sunt qu●… Christ●… non doc●…it▪ nec omnia qua vetera sunt admit●…s debent. Ibid●….   
The Church of CHRIST must still endure;  
According as our Saviour said,  
When for saint Peter He had prayed:  
Simon, thy Faith shall never fail:  
The Gates of Hell shall not prevail.  
The holy Ghost, your Comforter,  
Shall remain with you evermore:  
And I, Myself, your surest Friend,  
Will be with you, unto the end.  
saint Paul sayeth the same Speech;  
There shall be always Men to preach:  
Apostles, Doctors, and the like,  
Into the Church Catholic.  
If these be not the Church of Rome,  
Then will I be converted soon.   Eubulus. 
You must not expect of me, (Philomathes) that I will, so▪ unprofitably, spend time, as to sift out, narrowly, 
I.  all your Man's gross Oversightes; because I eye but the main point: and, therefore, you have not to think, that either I spy no●…, or do approve, what in him I pass over, untaxed. For, as, here, he vainly, and idly, paineth himself, to prove a point, which no man will deny, (That the Church continueth always:) So, for proving hereof, to allege, the particular Promise, made to Peter, That his Faith should not fail, he is ridiculous, and sophistical. For, in that place, the LORD speaketh of Peter's particular Faith, that Spiritual Virtue, begotten in him, by the holy Ghost, which was his Victory, where-by he over-came, in that his temptation: and not the Doctrine of Faith, as your Man hath, now, twice, dotingly, expounded. As if the Falling, or Standing, of the Church, did hang on any one particular Man his Apostasy, or Stability. He, no less audaciously, fathereth a Lie, on the Apostle Paul, (That, always, there shall remain Apostles in the Church:) For, except he escape, by aequivocation, it is most certain, that, in the most proper, and strict Signification of Apostleship, as it was an extraordinary Function, but for a time, till the Foundation of the Church should be laid, and the Canon closed: So, how-so-ever others, succeeding in Pastoral, and ordinary Offices of the Church, and teaching the same Doctrine, and so keeping the Foundation laid by them, are, truly, the Successors of the Apostles: Yet, that any did succeed to the Apostleship, it is extremely false. For, the Church being constituted, extraordinary Offices ceased; as did the extraordinary Gift, and manner of Calling, which maketh the Office. And, I even muse, if your own Men, will not judge, this your Poet, worthy of punishment, that will have Apostles continuing, always, plurally, in the Church: seeing you all do account this Dignity singular to the Pope; who only, now, in all the World, takes to himself, the Monopoly of Apostolical Benediction.  Philomathes. 
It is the main point, wherein we would be resolved. For these other things, I am not to make Argument. Can you, always, deny, but that CONTINVANCE, is a proper Mark of the Church?  Eubulus. 
It is no more a proper Note of the Church, than 
II.  Colour and Stature, are proper Notes of a Man. And, (that I forget not my promise, as I come on them, one by one, to show, the vain sophistry of your man's main Proposition, in all) I affirm, That, as Universality was foolishly brought by him, for a discerning Mark, betwixt Acclaimers; so, also, is this, of Continuance: not, that I deny it, to be an attribute, and common accident: for, certainly, since her first beginning, the Church both hath continued, and shall continue always. But, do you hold this good Logic, in your man, (Philomathes) of common accidents, to conclude, that they are proper Notes, and discerning Marks? you know, that Proprium, is but one of divers kinds of Predication: and, that whatsoever, is proper to any thing, it conveaneth (as Schools speak) Omni soli, & semper: that is, To all, to only, and always. But, Continuance, could not be said of the Church, Semper: that is, at all times. For, at the first moment of Adam and Evaes' Creation, (who were the Church) Continuance, of them then, had been no true Predication, when as yet, no time had run. Besides, whatsoever is a proper Note, it is so converted with the subject, whereof it is the property; as that, if Continuance were a proper Note of the Church; then, as none could be the Church, but which had continued, and did still continue: so, whatsoever did continue, behoved to be the Church, which you see, were extremely absurd. For, Heaven, and Earth, continue to this day: Satan, continueth a Liar, and a Murderer, from the beginning; and his Children continue Liars, and Murderers, like their Father: and, the evil Seed continueth, even amidst the good Seed, in the Lord's own Field, till the last day of separation. So, as if with any probable show, your man would had CONTINVANCE, counted a concluding Mark of the Church, he should have added thereto, this Modification, That, what company hath continued in the true Faith, and Worship of CHRIST, that is His true Church. But, then, if he should assume, that the Church of Rome, hath only continued in the true Faith, and lawful Worship of CHRIST, we will deny it, as extremely false: and, tell him, that he continueth impudent, to assume the Question. And, thus, you may perceive, (Philomathes) that your man's most likely Marks, yet are no proper Marks, till they be modified, by that one, and only demonstrative, and truly discretive Mark, which at first I laid down unto you.  Philomathes. 
But, (Eubulus) you must not escape us at so cheap a rate. For, even upon CONTINVANCE, a common accident, as you call it, I will establish our man's conclusion, for the Church of Rome. You will confess, that the Church of CHRIST, hath continued always, since her first beginning, and must always continue, till her LORD'S return: so, as she can never fall away, absolutely, from His Light, and Life. 
III.   Eubulus. 
This, I heartily yield you.  Philomathes. 
You will yield me this also, That no company can be said, to continue in the Truth, Light, and Life of CHRIST, which continueth not, in any profession of His Name, or worship thereof, at all. For, to use your own comparison, albeit Colour, and Stature will not conclude, of the thing coloured, and quantified, that it is a man: yet this will be a sure Position, That what hath neither Colour, nor Stature at all, it can be no man. 
IV.   Eubulus. 
This, I yield you also: but whereupon, you may see, that your conclusion, shall be but negative, to exclude upon defects, & not affirmative, to argue upon demonstrative Marks.  Philomathes. 
Then, advert, how I will, even affirmativelie, conclude, for the Church of Rome:  
That Company hath only continued, in the true Light, and Life of CHRIST, (and so is His Church) which, only, of all others, hath retained HIS Name, or any Worship thereof.  
But, for many Ages, the Church of Rome hath only, of all Companies in the World, retained the Name of CHRIST, or any Worship thereof.  
Therefore, the Church of Rome, hath only continued in the true Light, and Life of CHRIST: and so, only, is His true Church.  Eriphilus. 
You find, perhaps, Eubulus, that our Syllogisms, are pointed also.  Eubulus. 
I will presently prove, what either Point, or 
V.  Edge, it hath; and, how piercing soever you presume it to be, (Eriphilus) yet make it to be found as phlegmatic, as you are choleric. Of your Syllogism then, Philomathes, (where-by you conclude no thing to Rome's advantage, if any other Churches may be showed, to have continued in any Profession, or Worship of the Name of CHRIST) I grant the Proposition to be true: for, no question, but that only within the compass of the visible Church, and under the common Ensign of Profession, the true Church, and all true Christians, are, and have continued, always. And, as wherever the Ensign is, and the Name of CHRIST professed, how corrupedtly soever it be in common, yet, there, possibly, yea, probably, (I durst say assuredly) are some true, though weak, Christians: So, where that Name is not at all named, nor any worship thereof, there no Church can be said to be at all. Your Assumption is both false, and deceitful. And, to show it evidently to be such, if I should but oppose to you, the Aethiopian, and Indian Churches, which have continued, and not only without any Communion, but almost without any knowledge of the Church of Rome; what could you find, to say, against these Instances? but, I will be so indulgent, unto you, as not to urge them on you: I will, otherways, sufficiently, so discover the deceit of your Assumption, as the falsehood of it may be clearly seen: for it containeth a double fallacy; one in the name of the Church of Rome; the other, in that which is affirmed of it. For, if by the Church of Rome, be understood, the whole body of the visible Church, on which, for some Ages, by craft and ambitious usurpation of Antichrist, enthroned in the Temple, the Character, Name, or Number of 
Revel. 13.  the Beast, were imposed in common: how-so-ever thousands, ever were in that community, who, rejecting, and detesting them, retained the Name of the Lamb His Father, and Character thereof; and were of the 144000 sealed 
Revel. 1●… and ●…  ones: and, many, who, in simplicity, received the Name, or Number of the Beast, yet never received his Character. Then, sophistically, and deceitfully, you reason from the accressing Sore, and Gangrene in the body, (and of which Sore, the name is but improperly and tyrannically imposed on the body) to the body affected therewith. When we plead against the Church of Rome, we plead not against that body absolutely, wherein that evil was, and that so far obtaining, as it named the body after itself, (while 
Revel. 2. 13.  the Church of GOD dwelled, even where Satan's Throne was) but we plead against the evil, in, but not of, the body: not against all, who were called the Roman Church, or Papists, or were counted of that number: But against papality, or Antichristianisme. Not against all, who were, thorough common Contagion, perhaps, lightly touched, or tainted with the Evil: But against the Characterised company, Antichrist his mancipated Slaves, and in whom the pestilent Evil, had eaten up all true life, and sense. So, as in this Case, for arrogating any point, to the Mischief which we oppugn, to oppose unto us, the common body, even heavily affected, and, in common, over-gone with it; it is no less absurd sophistication, than if one should confound the Dropsy, jaundice, or Gangrene in the Body, with the Body in which they are, and draw Conclusions from the one, to the other. If all the Body, were the Evil, then were there no Body. But, even a sick Body, is yet a Body: and, how-so-ever so affected, in common, and, no part appeareth to be fully free, but, that the Sore possesseth all: yet, so long as the Body liveth, and moveth, performing natural Functions; it evinceth, that some Noble parts yet resist the Disease; so as the Body, albeit heavily affected, yet dieth not: yea, getting the true Medicine, and Divine Purgation of the Word and Spirit, will expel the Evil, and notive Humour, and recover Health; as Experience hath proved clearly, in many Reformed, both Churches and Persons.  
Thus, (Philomathes) if in your Assumption, you mean, by the Church, that whole Body, absolutely, on which that Name was fraudfully, and tyrannically, imposed: than you conclude not your Point, but deceive, by Aequivocation, (A dici, ad esse) from So called, and, wrongly called, to So is; confounding that known Distinction of Logic, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, whereof I spoke before. And if, by the Church of Rome, you signify the papality, and Evil in the Body, which we impugn, (as you must, if you evince aught against us) then is your Assumption clearly false. For, both before that Evil invaded the Body, the Body was: and, even at the time of the waxing Sore, yet still continued, brooking some healthsome remnant of Spiritual Sense, and Life: and, now, at last, by the Medicinal Virtue of the Word, and Spirit, is recovering Health, and destroying the, formerly, destroying Disease.  
This will be yet more clear, by the discovery of that other Fallacy, where-by, in this Case, of the Church's continuance, your Men partly illude, and partly are illuded. For, because the Church continueth always, they esteem, and conclude falsely, That, therefore, she continueth still in one, and the same Condition of Light, and Life: that is, That Truth, and lawful Worship, hath always held place, and borne sway there-in, in common: so as whatsoever Company, or Doctrine, most, in common, obtained, and carried Vogue, that was the true Church of CHRIST, and the true and Orthodox Faith. And this is most absurdly false, and evinced to be so, not only by evident Experience, but also by clear Scripture. For, all 〈◊〉 Church, & Truth in her, hath continued always; 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 she been subject to many Wrestle, Victories, Kithing 〈◊〉 Eclipses: She is sometime darkened, (saith Augustine) and is, as it were, overclouded, 
ad vinc●…. 〈◊〉. 48.  with multitude of Offences: sometime, by tranquillity of time, quiet & free she showeth herself: sometime is covered, and troubled with the waves of tribulations, and tentations. We confess, that the Church hath continued always: but not as the presuming Whore boasteth, I sit, being a Queen, & shall see no mourning: but, oft-times, 
Revel. 18. 7. Isai. 54. 1●….  afflicted, & tossed with tempest, & having no comforter. She hath still continued, but, as a Woman, (even at first, while she was yet clothed with the Sun) travelling, and crying out, with pain: 
Revel. 12.  next, persecuted cruelly: thirdly, fleeing to the Wilderness: fourthly, 
Revel. 13.  lurking, and fed there, while the beast of Satan's power maketh the Earth to follow him, by false pretence of the Lambe's 
Revel. 8. and  horns. She hath continued always: yet so, as sometime (while the Earth, Sea, fountains & Rivers, Stars, Sun & Moon, 
Revel. 14. and  are either, first, in a great part, burnt, corrupted, made bitter, eclipsed, or totally, at last, darkened) she consisted of a few secret sealed ones, exempted, in GOD'S merciful care, from a common evil. Sometime, again, she is of a number innumerable, 
Revel. 7. 9 Revel. 11.  with Palms in hand. Her state hath been, sometime, as the temple closed, in relation to all the holy city, & court of the temple, trodden under foot of the Heathen: her Pastors, sometime, few, secret, ministering within the Temple, in sorrow, for prevailing Evils; yet long without bloodshed, as being unperceived. Sometime, again, upon application of the true measuring Reed, (for discerning the true Church, within the compass of so importable an impiety) cruelly murdered, & barbarously entreated, even with applause of the World. Sometime, again, in greater vigour, terrifying their enemies; &, in open view, 
Revel. 14. Revel. 1●…. 12. Revel. 18. ●….  flying thorough the midst of Heaven, with the everlasting Gospel; & separated from incurable Contagion, to come up hither. Sometime, as now at last, coming so down on the earth, as it is all lightened, with the glorious shining of the Gospel. We know, that the true Church hath continued always: Yet so, as, in a common Apostasy, where-by Antichrist obtained a Throne, even in the Temple of GOD; and all the 
●…es. 2.  Earth followed the Beast, receiving his Character, Name, or Number, (while to the Beast his wondering Sectators, and 
●…l. 13.  charactized Slaves, it appeared impossible, that any such Company could be) she consisted of 144000 secret, sealed, 
●…l. 14.  and chaste ones, following the Lamb; and having a powerful, and plentiful Dispensation of Grace, and a sweet sound of well-tuned Harps; albeit none could either hear, or learn, their Song, but themselves.  
Finally, we acknowledge, That the Gates of Hell never prevailed, or shall prevail, against the Church: but yet, they have often assailed her, strangely. And thus, in whatsoever sense, your Assumption, Philomathes, (That the Church of Rome, hath only, of all Companies in the World, for many Ages, retained the name of CHRIST, and any Worship thereof) is either deceitfully sophistical, or evidently false. And so your Conclusion cometh to nought.  Philadelphus. 
This pointed Syllogism of yours, (Eriphilus) E●…bulus hath so blunted, as it will scarce serve to prick a Pudding. And if neither CONTINVANCE can be a proper Mark of the Church; and being modified, so as it may best seem to be one, yet is falsely assumed of Rome; I see no better Conclusion, but that we let her continue the Mother of Whoordomes, and that we seek the BRIDE, where She may be better found out.  

Of Propers, it's a Property, that ever  
Of their own Subjects, they are surely said:  
Satan shall never CHRIST from His Church dissever.  
Continuance yet can not, though, be made  
Her proper Mark: let see how she it had  
The very moment of her first Creation.  
Some tract of Time must be, of force, fore-layde,  
Where it is made a proper Praedication.  
This Point is als accorded amongst Clerks,  
No Common Cases can be Proper Marks.   Philomathes. 
Well, (Eubulus) giving you, that the Church continued not always in one, and the same Condition, of obtaining Truth; and, that, possibly, Error might have prevailed in the whole Church, in common, but not universally, in each within it: yet, except some visible, and seen Company, (how small soever) may be produced by you, who have professed your Faith, & Doctrine; to whom you may, with any show of Reason, acclayme the Title of the true Body; & so, lay over, on us, the name, and blame, of the Sore: what is all your reasoning, but a poor, and very improbable Paralogism, A posse, ad esse, as Schools speak? And the point of our Syllogism, is not yet so far blunted, as Philadelphus would make it.  Eubulus. 
To evince the possibility, it sufficiently meeteth 
VI  all your Men: who, against our Demonstrations, of GOD His Truth with us, and the Apostasy of the Church of Rome, oppose, always, and only, to us, the impossibility, that any such Case should befall the Church. So as mine Argument is not, as you speak, A posse, ad esse: but, of that whereof we evidently evince the Esse, and you deny the Posse, to clear the certainty of both. But I see whither you tend: for you come, now, to underproppe your declining CONTINVANCE, with as weak a Warrant, of visibility; which is your Man's next Mark, & which I have, all-readie, so marred, with that which hath been said to CONTINVANCE, as I shall have but small a do to hogh the Prop; that, so, both may tumble down, in the Dust, to-gether.  Eriphilus. 
I pray you, (Philomathes) go forward, to the Mark of visibility: which, in the Continuance of the Church, cometh most fitly to be considered. And, this Mark shall best clear our Church, and make Eubulus to be seen, in all his Subtleties: For, so shall a Church be found to have continued, if she hath continued visible: And you will perceive Eubulus so pintched, with this Note, as he will vanish away, in his invisibility; and will give us a Church. continuing, forsooth, a thousand years, by miere imagination.  Eubulus. 
If I did so far distrust our Cause, (Eriphilus) 
VII.  as that I would, therefore, seek to escape by Subtleties, why would I have suffered myself, (and that unnecessarily) to be drawn aside, by you, to so idle a Disputation, about that, whereof it is shame, for any resolved Christian, once to make question? For, how-so-ever, that, for Philomathes better satisfaction, I was, and am, contented to deal thus; yet, what a senseless thing, in effect, is this, That the Truth of GOD, (so clearly revealed, and, which, by any, having Spiritual Eyes, is as easily discerned from Error, as Light is from Darkness) for Man's vain humour, should be put to this form, and Rule of Trial; That, except it may be cleared, where, and with whom, it hath visibly continued, we will proudly, and rebelliously, reject it? Which is no less, yea, much more, both ridiculous, and unjust; than, if the Sun, long lapped up, under Clouds, and, thereafter, breaking forth, brightly, should, therefore, by Dolts, be denied, to be the true Sun; and, that it were but some Counterfey●…, and never-before-seene Comet: Because, forsooth, their weak Eyes had not continually perceived, all the particular progress of it. Whereas, in any true Sparkle of a Godly, and Christian Disposition, and right Spiritual Wisdom, we should thus reason: This is, evidently, the Truth of GOD; and, therefore, how-so-ever it hath not appeared, to continue, or keep place; yet, I am certain, that it hath never, altogether, failed, from amongst GOD His Children. An'dt, his is Heresy. Therefore, how great place soever it hath had, or, how long soever it hath borne sway, even in the Holy 
●…vel. 11. ●….  City, and Court of the Temple, yet it is clearly to be casten out.  
And, in the beginning of our Dispute, I laid such Grounds, of the evidency, and Sufficiency of Holy Scripture, for full Resolution, in these Points; as I might, well anough, have excused myself, from diverting, thus vainly, with you, to these Questions, either of Continuance, or visibility; if I were in any such peril, by your Praerogatives in them, as you praesume. But, this cleareth you, (Eriphilus) that you are, now, come to your strongest piece: for any fear whereof, I will not yet so far vanish, as you wiene: But, even dismasking your Man, of this vain, and so-much-vaunted-of Wizard, of visibility, I will, GOD willing, show him, in discerning of GOD His Church, to be visibly blind: and, will not give you a Church, by imagination, but, continuing, always, really, and visible, though not to Mules.  Philomathes. 
Verily, you make me though not to vanish, yet to wonder at a little; That you confess, the true Church, to have been always visible: and, will make me wonder, yet more, if you perform what you promise. For, I ever imagined, that all your Defence, in this Point, had been, to claim unto the invisibility of the Church. But, you have sharpened mine Appetite, to hear you of this Matter. Thus, then, our Poet speaketh of this Mark.   

CHAPTER V.  

VISIBLE.  
THis is another Mark most clear, 
Neque 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 res●…e 〈◊〉 non potest 〈◊〉 Christian●…: ●… 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 v●…ra, si 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 p●… times, & 〈◊〉 tati●… ab 〈◊〉 bus s●…pscrit. 〈◊〉 ill●… 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Arn●…ius, 3. adversus ●…tes. ●…reger. Na●…n. orat. 21. d●…●…d. Ath●…nasii. ●…ee who pro●…eth one, and ●… same Do●…ne of Faith, ●… fellow-part●…er of the same ●…ayre: but who maintaineth a ●…trarie ●…eth, is to be ●…ounted an ●…versarie, al●…it even sitting the Chair. ●…d this, in●…de, hath the ●…ne, but that ●…er hath the ●…e matter, and ●…eth of Succes●…n.   
The Church of God must still appear,  
As a City upon an Hill,  
Shine, and continue still,  
As a light, on a Candlestick,  
Such is the Church Catholic.  
Our Saviour sayeth, If one offend,  
And will not be ruled by his Friend,  
Tell the Church, without delay.  
And if he will not then obey,  
Do thou esteem such a man,  
An Heathen, or a Publican.  
Is not this the Church, wherein we see,  
Two hundreth Bishops, thirty three,  
To have succeeded each other,  
Since the time of saint Peter?  
Show me this Mark in you,  
And I will say, your Faith is true.  
If it be not the Church of Rome,  
Then will I be converted soon.   Eubulus. 
This is your Man's third Mark, and which you have brought, to bear up your decaying CONTINVANCE. 
I.  But, I say, (Philomathes) that no more can visibility be a proper Mark of the Church, than could CONTINVANCE; for, it is a common accident, of all visible creatures: So as, albeit I should yield as much of visibility, as I confessed of Continuance, yet would it but serve for a Negative Conclusion, against others; but for no Affirmative Demonstration of your own Church: And, thus, still, thorough all, your Man's main Proposition proveth vain.  Philomathes. 
I must confess, that visibility, no more than Continuance, is a proper Note of the Church: For you have clearly evinced it. Yet, as, out of our Man, I framed an Argument, before, upon Continuance; so, now, I will, from visibility, (even a common Accident, as you call it) conclude, not only negativelie, against your Church; but; affirmativelie, of the Church of Rome. And, I reason thus:  
The Church of CHRIST is always visible. But, for many Ages, no Church was visible, but the Church of Rome. Therefore, the Church of Rome, is the only Church of CHRIST.  Eubulus. 
Such an affirmative Conclusion, jump, as was 
II.  your former, upon CONTINVANCE; by a deceiving consequence, upon the presumed Defects of others. Which, as it beguiled you, in your CONTINVANCE, so will it fail you here also, for it is the very same. And, as I so overthrew your Argument, from CONTINVANCE, that you were fain to flee to visibility, for succour: so will I make, now, the weakness of this your Reason, from visibility, not only visible, but even palpable also. Wherein, yet, I will not waste time, to show, how ridiculously, vainly, and impertinently, he laboureth, to prove the Proposition, of this his Syllogism. That hath been oftener showed, than he hath syllables in his Proper Ballad: neither will I insist, to expose his folly, in bringing bare personal Succession, (and not that which all orthodox Fathers call the principal, and proper succession) and but of one particular Church, (as if it had failed in all other Churches) for stablishing of his Assumption. What is true Succession, and who are true Successors, and how unjustly either are appropriated, or attributed to Rome, I have cleared elsewhere. I come to the point it 
Defe●…e of Sect. 4. Defence of Sect. ●…3. &  self: whereof, albeit I have already written at such length, as I might be well excused, to refer you wholly thereto, (my Books passing so commonly in the Country) yet, because in this Mark, as in the top of your strength, you glory most, I will, GOD willing, in few words, unfold your Error. This then, (Philomathes) is the Major, or Proposition of your Argument: The Church of CHRIST is always visible.  Philomathes. 
And you have, al-readie, as I think, granted it: neither see I, (though you would recall your word) what, goodly, you can say against it.  Eubulus. 
I am to recall nothing of that I have said: but 
III.  yet I must clear, in what sense this your Position is to be admitted, for pulling your men from their ordinary Starting-Hole of Aequivocation. For, how-so-ever, I will still grant, that, in some respects, the Church of CHRIST is always visible: yet, I will deny your Proposition, if, from a restrict Case, you draw it to an absolute Assertion, because, in some consideration, the Church is invisible. And, to clear this: In respect of the matter of the Church, (which is Men) and, in respect of the common outward form, (in the public & common Ensign of Profession, & worship) we confess, the Church to be, and, always to have been, visible. But, in respect of her inward form, & the purpose of Grace, (where-on chiefly the Truth of the Church hangeth) she is invisible. And, the LORD knoweth, who are His. Schools do call the one, Rationem Signi; &, the other, Rationem Beneplaciti. And, seeing it is an Article of our Faith, to believe the Church; and, that Faith, is of things, which are not seen; it followeth, of necessity, that in some (and that a most principal) respect, the Church is invisible. For, to be believed, & to be seen, can not consist. Yea, this is so evident a truth, as Bellarmine is forced to confess it: these are his words, Melius dico in Ecclesia aliquid videri, 
Eccles. lib. 3. cap. 15.  & aliquid credi; videmus enim eum coetum qui est Ecclesia; sed quod ille coetus sit ipsa vera CHRISTI Ecclesia non videmus, sed credimus: that is, I say, better that in the Church some thing is seen, and some thing is believed; for we see that Company which is the Church; but, that that Company is the self true Church of CHRIST, we see not, but believe it. The one consideration, discerneth Christians, true or false, from open Idolaters, and Heathen men: the other, distinguisheth true Christians, from outward professors only, & common worshippers. Now, as these distinct Considerations should be sophistically confounded; so you see, (Philomathes) that your Proposition, taken absolutely, were deceitfully false.  Philomathes. 
Even so much as you grant, will serve me for concluding of mine Argument; so, as I need not impugn your Distinction, or disadvow aught that Bellarmine sayeth▪ I plead, but that the Church is ever visible, Ratione Signi, (as you speak) that is, that the true, & Orthodox external worship, and worshippers, have been always visible. For, it must be some external Sign, falling under Sense, and outward perception, which must be a Mark of the Church, as you have evinced against us, eve●… by our Bellarmine's suffrage: and, there-upon, did bereave us of our first Mark of CATHOLIC, or UNIVERSALITY.  Eubulus. 
As you even modify your Proposition, (Philomathes) 
IV.  yet it implieth a deceit, which you bewray, by your own Gloss: That is, (say you) that the true, and Orthodox Worship, and Worshippers, have always been visible. Which, if you do mean in this Sense, that, always, by the common Ensign of public Profession, (Ratione Signi) it might ever have been discerned, where the true Worship, and true Worshippers were, and might have been seen; I will heartily yield you it. But, if he●…e-by, (as your Men plead) you would signify, that, always, and in common, lawful, and true Worship, and, lawful, and true Worshippers, have so far obtained, & borne sway, as whatsoever, in common, held place in the Church, that was to be esteemed Truth: then, I still deny, even your modified Proposition. And, it is still one, and the same Fallacy, wherein, before, in the Mark of Continuance, you did fall; and which, at length, I elided there. In my Distinction, Signi, & Beneplaciti, I told you, even now, That by the visible Ensign, Christians, in common, good, or bad; or Orthodox, or otherways, were discerned from Foreigners, and Heathen men. Now, hereupon, to infer, That, by the common, visible Ensign, (in the community of Christians) true, & Orthodox Worshippers; or, true, & Orthodox Worship, are discerned, from false, and adulterous, both under the same common Ensign; you may see, how childish Sophistry it were. If Satan had but one way, of assailing the Church, namely, by open, and avowed Hostility: and, if none, but lawful, and Orthodox Worshippers, were under it; then, had you reason, to make the common Ensign, of Visible Profession, a sure Mark, not only of Christians, in common, but even of true Christians al-so; at least, of lawful outward worship. But, seeing, that, both, by Scripture, and many fold Experience, we know, that, by no mean, he hath, so effectually prevailed, as, by transforming himself, in an Angel of Light; &, under pretence of the common Ensign, to adulterate all lawful worship; of necessity, for discerning the true Church, or approved lawful Worship, from the Abomination of Desolation, (both of them (in sanctis Ecclesiae locis) under one, and the same Ensign, of Christian Profession) we must advert, 
●…l. 13. 11.  not only whose Horns are pretended; but also, whose Mouth speaketh. So as, still, you may see, that even visibility must be reduced unto, and examined, by our only demonstrative Mark, which, in the beginning of our Disputation, I laid down.  Philomathes. 
I love so greatly to be resolved, especially in this so main, and maynlie controverted a Point, as I will come farther with you, than, I know, our Church will allow me: and, give you this, That even Error, might possibly have taken place, in the whole Church, in common: (which Case I did, not obscurely, put, at the beginning of our Conference, about this Mark) yet, seeing we accord in this, That CHRIST hath ever had a true Church: and, seeing that you yield me this, al-so, That the same is always visible, in respect of the matter thereof, [MEN] and external form of Profession: (which is, of necessity, a certain truth; in so far, as not only with the Heart we believe to Righteousness, but also, with the Mouth, we confess unto Salvation.) How-so-ever, it either hath, or might have fallen, that most part were misscarried, and that Adulterous worship, and Worshippers, have had chief Room, and been most conspicuous, and visible: Yet, how can you deny, but some number, at least, behoved to be, always, of lawful Worshippers, and holding the Orthodox Faith: who, both in their persons, and in their Worship, were visible, even in time of greatest Corruption?  Eubulus. 
Your upright Dealing, and desire of Resolution, 
V.  (Philomathes) maketh me to let that freely with you, which, with others, I would, perhaps, have longer stuck unto. For bringing you, then, to your Wishes, I grant your Proposition, in your last declared Sense, to be true. But then, I say, of your Assumption, (No Church hath remained visible, but the Church of Rome) that it hath the same fallacy in it, which I opened, and refelled at length, in the same Assumption of Continuance. For, if by the Church of Rome, you mean the common body, of the whole visible Church, albeit even affected, with the over-going Evil; & on which, for more effectual deceit, tyrannically the name of the beast sitting there-in, was by him imposed: then is your Assumption sophistically deceitful, in reasoning, A dici, (from, So called) ad esse, (to, So is) and, concluding, from the Body absolutely, to the Gangrene, or Sore in it, or, contrary-wayes, from the Evil in the Body, to the Body affected therewith, in common, but not universally; as before I showed. And, upon your Assumption, thus understood, your Conclusion will not follow. But, if by the Church of Rome, your Assumption meaneth the Evil, and Sore, against which only it is that we plead, and not against the common Body, whereof we are; then, is it manifestly false: and, so, your Conclusion faileth.  Philomathes. 
But, except you clear to me, how, in that Body, besides that which you do call the over-going Sore, there were some visible parts, brooking Health, and that visibly; I must still think, that your subtle Distinction, of the Body, from the Sore, is but vain. For, I pray you, for many Ages, who were seen, or known, to have any differing Profession? or, to have resisted, and condemned, the Church of Rome?  Eubulus. 
Now, consider, (Philomathes) how aequitablie 
VI  you require that of me. For, first, How-so-ever it may be easily seen, and shown, in a Body, but contracting a Disease, while, as yet, all Members are not much infected, or affected therewith: or, again, in a Body, convalescing, while either all the Body is almost freed from the Sickness, or, at least, the strongest, and noblest parts, have expelled the Disease; albeit, perhaps, the D●…egges thereof rest, a space, in the extremities of Hands, or Feet, and keep them swollen. Yet, (Philomathes) it shall be hardly shown in a Body, in the prevailing height, and main Fit of the Sickness, when it hath so far obtained, as all parts of that Body, in common, are, either infected, or, at least, heavily affected, yea, and even much afflicted there-by; so, as no part can be separablie shown, brooking, apart, perfect health, without either Infection, or Affection. And, yet, even in such a Case, a Skilful man, beholding, and considering, will perceive, evidently, that it is a living, albeit a sick Body: yea, that such Strength, of natural Vigour, yet remaineth there-in, albeit nowhere unaffected, which, both, resisteth the wasting Disease, even in the very Paroxysm, and, in end, by prevailing vital power, & help of right Medicine, expelleth it. For, as in such a Body, if no remnant were of vital Vigour, all Sense, and Motion, should be quite extinguished: So, in a Body, totally affected, & afflicted, albeit not universally infected, it were a monstrous, & unnatural thing, in such a Case, to see any part of the Body, apart, nothing affected; albeit there will, even in that Body, be parts, not infected: wherein, as in a citadle life, & health residing, they from thence, both fight against the over-going Evil, &, at last, become victorious over it. Of the Church of Sardis, it it said, 
●…vel. 3. 1.  That, having a name, that she lived, yet she was dead; &, notwithstanding, is exhorted, to strengthen the parts which remained, and were ready to die. And, even in this miserable Case, the LORD witnesseth, That even there, He had a few names, which had not defiled their garments: &, these yet still lived, in the communion of that same Church, & were not known by any visible separation, from the rest of that Body. For, separation is neither requisite, nor lawful, till all hope of Cure be past. And, thus, neither were the faithful ones under Antichristian tyranny, till, after long toleration, & much heaviness, for the waxing Evil, at last, labouring to have cured it, they were cruelly murdered, &, lay, barbarously, unburied, &, insolently mocked, in the streets of Babel, which neither would, nor could be cured. And, then, leaving her, as a burnt Mountain, being, by divine warrant, commanded, to Come up hither, they did separate themselves, not from the Church, but from the Contagions, and incurable Evil, in the Church, but not of it. For, we would fain have cured Babel, but she would not. Next, (Philomathes) how-so-ever lightened men, each in their own times, even in most desperate state, & condition, both might, and did see, some pure remnant, which were well known to the godly, then; yet, how absurdly is any account of them required of succeeding Ages, to whose knowledge (through repressing and suppressing tyranny, of such as disposed of all Records at their pleasure) nothing did come, but what obtained commonly in that time? In despite of all which, notwithstanding, so much testimony hath remained, as may satisfy, and certify, any upright mind, That still Truth was in the Church, & in all Ages had its own Assertors; albeit not all, in a like degree of contestation, even in most corrupt times; as the Gatalogues of them, drawn up by our Men, for meeting this your Objection, make manifest, if you please with an unpartial Heart to read them.  
Moreover, here, again, (Philomathes) you stumble, at a double Deceit, in the word VISIBLE: in that, not only, you conclude, That, whatsoever is visible, is, al-so, seen: but, therewith, al-so, upon no open resisting, you infer no being, most absurdly. All men know, that from Toleration, to Approbation, you can never establish a Conclusion. Many will, and, for many Respects, tolerate that, which they are so far from approving, as they will utterly abhor it. And, (to keep our former similitude) how many have you seen, subject to great, and dangerous Diseases, and having their Bodies replete with vicious Humours; who, yet, while they could retain any reasonable condition of Health, would not adventure, to move the Body; by expelling, with perilous Medicaments, the nocive Humours? The Church of Pergamus, tolerated what she neither approved, 
Reve●…●…  nor communicated therewith: but lurked, even where Satan's Throne was; keeping the Name of GOD, who knew her Dwelling, and Case. Physicians come not to Burning, and Cutting, till the Evil be, not only desperate, but, al-so, that the Life of the Body is in danger there-by. Your Romish Evil, (Philomathes) did grow on slowly, and by Degrees; and came not to the top of Impiety at once: so, as the Degrees of Contestation, in difference of time, and divers degrees of a waxing Evil, behoved to be much divers. And, neither could the Case admit, or was it the LORD His will, that Contestation should be, in the highest degree, till the Impiety came to the highest: though, even in the Growth, and subtle Success, of that Mystery of Iniquity, many, both misliked it, and mourned for it: keeping, themselves, the Name of GOD, and uttering, in their own times, not obscure Signs of their Miscontentment.  
The other Point, wherein you are deceived, and which, in the first room, I propounded, is; That upon visibility, you conclude Sight. But, many things, and many times, will be visible, which yet are not always seen. Doth not Experience teach us, how hardly one Man will be found out amongst a thousand, even by such as do both know him, and search after him? how long, then, may he lurk unseen, of such as neither know him, nor think of him? And, in the midst of so great Repressing and Suppressing Tyranny, what marvel, though they were, in common, unseen, as not only being few, but forced also to lurk, and by GOD His Gracious Providence, covered from their Enemy's fury? This beguileth you, (Philomathes) that you account, no worship either to be at all, or to be visible, but which is separatelie openly, and avowedlie practised, in the common view of all men. Which, manifold Experience, and clear Scripture, teacheth us, to be an absurd Conception: and, which Case, neither that course of time, and of the Evil, by GOD His permission, waxing, and obtaining in it, could suffer: and, which, in the wise purpose of GOD His admirable Dispensation, was neither needful, nor expedient.  Eriphilus. 
Did I not divine, rightly, (Eubulus) to what pintches this Point would drive you? When all is done, what do you, but vanish away, in your invisibility; giving us a Church, by miere imagination? A Church, invisibly visible, and, visibly invisible. Are you not ashamed, so to dally? Our Church was always visible, (say you) but it was not seen: and, I pray you, what a visible Church, is that, which none doth see?  Eubulus. 
Ajax, transported with fury, (Eriphilus) did 
VII.  slay many sakelesse Sow, in stead of Ulysses. And, you are, now, in great chafe, with your own Shadow. I did not say, neither ever minded ay to say, That none did see our Church: but, ay, justly, taxed a false Conclusion, led from visibility, to common, and continual seeing. For, many things are visible, which yet neither are, in common, nor always seen. And, this maketh not our Church invisibly visible; but it showeth him, who will deny it, to be visibly blind. I acknowledge, That, how-so-ever Antichristian Darkness, hath over-gone the whole Church, in common, yet that ever still, within the compass of that Usurpation, under the common Ensign, were numbers of true, and lawful Worshippers, and, a true, and lawful Worship: which were, always, visible, by the Ensign, and common Body: as white is visible, in the rucke and heap, how-so-ever covered with the over-going Chaff, or Strae, till the Fanner come, and purge the Floor. And, to come yet more near, (Eriphilus) I say, That they were not only visible in this sort, but, al-so, in their persons, and practise of pure Worship: and, that they were seen, al-so, albeit not, in common, perceived. For, many things, will be both visible, and seen, al-so, which yet will escape perception, even of the Seers. Yea, which you will yet, perhaps, more admire, I affirm, That they were not only visible, and seen, but perceived, al-so; though not in common, nor of the blinded worldly sort, (which was the LORD His Providence, for their preservation;) but only of their 
Rev. 14  sealed Brethren, who were brought from the Earth; and, being spiritual Virgins, only got Eyes, to see, and perceive; and, Ears, to hear, and understand, that sweet, and high-tuned Song, which the Beast's stupefied Sectators could neither hear, nor learn. Now, then, though I affirm, and that justly, That from visibility, one may not conclude of seeing: neither, from seeing, may one conclude of perceiving: neither, from both seeing, and perceiving, of seeing, and perceiving, in common: yet I deny not, but freely, and truly affirm, That our Church was always visible, seen, and perceived, but not of such as had no Eyes. Do you not know, that many things may be visible; which yet, through the blindness of beholders, are not seen? yea, and many things are seen, which even the seers, (through misregard, or over-vayling mist, or GOD, in justice, benumbing their Senses) yet, will not take up, nor perceive: which, yet, the illuminated, will both see, and perceive clearly.  
To reason, then, from visibility, to common sight; or, from visibility, and common sight, to conclude common Perception; or, to conclude of what is not seen, or perceived, in common, That it is not seen, or perceived, at all; yea, is not visible; yea, is not at all; it is such a dead kind of Argumentation, (Eriphilus) as, wherein all your choler will never kindle the life of good Logic. How many Papists, and how much Popish worship, is, and that visible, within this ISLAND, which, yet, is not seen, in common, or perceived? Yea, (Eriphilus) though I be visible, and you do, al-so, both see, and hear me; yet, you neither perceive, nor understand me. How many things will be lying, even hard by us; yea, before our Eyes; which, yet, will we not, a long time, perceive, though, sedulouslie, seeking after them? I ask you, (Eriphilus) was not Lot; were not his Guests, the Angels, (in their condition, at that time;) were not his Wife, and Daughters; was not his House, and the Gates thereof, visible?  Eriphilus. 
Doth it agree with your pretended Gravity, to ask of me, such scornful Questions?  Eubulus. 
That you may see, how I do, very pertinently, 
I.  and seriously, ask this of you; I tell you, That, how visible soever they were, yet they escaped the perception, 
●… 11.  of all SODOM, even greedily groping after them. The Sun was visible, yea, & clearly, both seen, 
●…. 21.  and shining, in GOSHEN, when, notwithstanding, in all EGYPT, was palpable Darkness. And, what wonder, then, though that great City, which, spiritually, 
Rev. 11. ●….  is called Sodom, and Egypt, did not see, or perceive, what, yet, was visible, seen, and shining, in the midst of her? And, what marvel, that they are still so blind; as, not to perceive, how these former things, in GOD His purpose, were Stamps of the like; but, greater Cases to fall out thereafter? Was either ELISHA, or SAMARIA, 
2. King. 6.  or the Region, thorough which the ARAMITES were led, therefore, either invisible, or not seen of them; because GOD syled their Eyes; that seeing, yet they should not perceive? But, (Eriphilus) to be yet more plain, and to come even close to your hand. As, before, I cleared, how the Church continued always, albeit not always in one, and the same Condition: so, I tell you, now, That the Church was ever, and in all Ages, visible; how-so-ever not always in alike measure of Health, and Spiritual Vigour: which is your men's gross Fallacy. A Man, even brought to bed with sickness, is no les visible, than when he walked abroad, in perfect health, albeit neither seen of so many, nor so healthful as before. Your men are ridiculous, in ask incessantly, where our Church was, before Luther: whereas the Church now, the Church in Luther's days, & the Church before his days, even upward, to the infancy thereof, is, & was, still one, & the same Church, & always visible: but, first, in health, & healthsom vigour: next, by degrees, contracting sickness: at length, heavily infected, affected, & afflicted, with that disease, whereof you, Eriphilus, are dangerously sick, & Philomathes hath somewhat tasted also: & now is convalescing, through the Medicine of the Word & Spirit: and alike in all these cases, was ever, & is, visible, & seen also, according to her distinct conditions, in divers times. Neither have we another Church, or a new Church, as your Doctors would persuade the Simple: but the same Church; & a renewed Church. Neither have we forsaken the Unity, & Communion of the Church, within which, & whereof we still are: but we have forsaken Babel, in the Church which hath ●…firmed herself against all Cure. For, howsoever the sick Body, was the Church, yet the Sickness oppugning, and wasting the life thereof, was never the Church: and, albeit in it, yet never of it. Now, (Eriphilus) you see, I am far from dallying, and, am come to more plain Dealing, than, perhaps, well pleaseth you.  Philomathes. 
Verily (Eubulus) I can not deny, but your Reasons are sound, and solid; and, your Distinctions are subtle. But, it seemeth exceeding strange, that any such Case, and so long a time, should have befallen the Church of GOD: which maketh me yet to suspect, that your Arguments, are more out of subtlety of Logic, than according to the Verity of the Matter: and, that, how-so-ever they evince, indeed, clearly, a Possibility of such a Case: yet, that any such Case, in truth, was, they will not conclude: And, it were a rash Conception, so to think of holy Church. So that, according as▪ I said before, you seem still to reason, but A posse, ad esse, from Possibility, to Real existence, which will not necessarily follow.  Eubulus. 
I confess, (Philomathes) that the Case is, and will seem, strange, to any not acquainted with the clear course of Scripture, and the LORD His wise, and wonderful Dispensation, clearly foretold there-in, and fallen out accordingly. For, the works of GOD are wonderful, and, He is marvellous, in the Case of His saints. As, great is the Mystery of Godliness; so, al-so, is that of Iniquity. And, without true illumination, to know the Scriptures of GOD, none ever shall attain, either to the healthsome Knowledge of the one, or happy Discovery of the other. But, (Philomathes) seeing you confess, That I have clearly evinced the Possibility of such Apostasy in the Church, as where-by Error may take place, in common; and, that, yet, notwithstanding, GOD may, very well, preserve Truth, and true, and lawful Worship, and Worshippers, albeit, in common, unperceived: and, considering the many, and capital Points, wherewith so many famous Churches, now, so long time, charge your Church of Rome: I ask you, If in this Case, you think her well defended, with the pretended Impossibility of Erring? Or, if she hath not great reason, both to suspect, what possibly might befall her; and, carefully, to descend, to an exact Trial, whether it hath so befallen her, or not?  Philomathes. 
certainly, I think the weight of so great Points, as are in Controversy, to-gether with the Challenge of so many Churches, require no less, than that 
▪ IX  Matters be condignly tried, and examined: and, that a proud Denial, will not justify any, in such a Case.  Eubulus. 
Well, (Philomathes) and, in so clearly evinced 
X.  a Possibility of Apostasy, as requireth a condign Trial; whether, think you, is it the surest way, to put the stable Truth of GOD, revealed in His word, to this inaequitable, and unsure Condition; as either to approve itself, by the Multitude, and Continuance of Holder's, who, yet, may err, or, then, to be rejected? Or, rather, to say, for a sure Ground; That, seeing it is Truth, therefore, it ought to subdue all Minds, and take place against all Praejudices, of Praescription, Prerogative of Holder's, Time's, Places, or Persons? Because it dependeth, not on the unstable Humours of Men, who are but, naturally, Liars, and, may be deceived. But, is, in itself, so clear; as, being admitted, purely, to plead for itself, it will, sufficiently, approve, and, justify, itself, against all, how strongly soever grounded Error; and all, either Quality, or Multitude of maintainers, or Praescription of Time. In short, (Philomathes) whether ought the Truth of GOD, to be subject to Men? or, ought all Men, to be subject unto it? 
 And, which of these two Reasons, conclude strongest? and, on which, may a Christian Soul, best rest? This hath long had place, and Approbation, with most Men: and, 
 therefore, is the Truth. Or, this is GOD His Truth▪ therefore, it ought to have place, even against all praejudice whatsoever. And, how-so-ever it hath appeared, to have been perished, from amongst Men; yet, certainly, it hath remained always.  Philomathes. 
Verily, I can not deny, but that it were a sacrilegious remeritie, to subject the Truth of GOD, to Man: albeit, again, in the Question, what is that Truth, I think, the judgement of the Church, and what hath long been held of Her, should be much regarded; and not rejected, without great, and very clear Reasons.  Eubulus. 
That I yield you, (Philomathes:) and truly, if, in 
●…I.  the present Point of our Disputation, we had or could bring no more, but, (as you alleged) the Possibility of the case: whereof no Evidence might be produced, that accordingly it had fallen out. And, if my Reasons, and Distinctions, in this Matter, were but from quirks of Logic, and not according to clearelie-fore-tolde, and, accordingly, fallen-out Events, you had the less reason to regard them. But, besides the Possibility, which I have evinced; & besides the undoubted Truth itself, so clearly delivered in Scripture, as may sufficiently certify a Soul, that, accordingly, the Case hath fallen. The holy Ghost (for our farther Resolution) hath also, (according to both the Possibility, and the event, in effect, agreeable) so clearly foretold the whole particular Case, and Course, as, I may boldly say, to whom it appeareth strange, They are yet great Strangers, in the written Word of GOD: and, in such great measure of Light, as now, in GOD'S singular Mercy, is revealed, who disdain to learn, what even Artificers (in such open and large offer of Grace) are holden to know, they are worthily blinded, in GOD'S just indignation. We are not only forewarned, by the LORD Himself, in the days of His flesh; and, agreeably, 
w, 24.  thereafter, by the Apostle Paul, of such a common Apostasy in the Church, as where-by Antichrist should obtain a Throne, even in the Temple of GOD: but, also, most amply, 
●…l. 2.  particularly, and delightfullie, under most goodly, and significant Types, in the Book of the Revelation, the whole course of Story, is plainly, and at length expressed. So, as (Philomathes) I have not alleged what probably might be▪ but what the holy GHOST hath plainly, and particulie, foretold, and, forewarned us, should come to pass: and, which, accordingly, we see clearly performed. Yo●… Men are deceived, because they know neither the ●…criptures, nor the Power of GOD. And, I am so far from seeking subtle Evasions, in this Argument, as, I, uprightly, protest, in the Presence of HIM, Whom I serve, in the GOSPEL of HIS Son; That, (laying aside the very self clear, and infallible Grounds of Truth, delivered in Scripture, whereupon against all, either Probabilities▪ or Praesumptions, our Faith may, and must, solidly rely) there is no Reason, in the World, so effectual, to assure my Soul, of the Verity of our Religion, and, that we are of CHRIST His true Church; as are the very chief things, which our Adversaries do object against us. Neither any so pregnant a Motive, to persuade me, (laying aside the consideration of their plain haereticall Opinions) that they are the Antichristian Body; as even those things, wherein they do, chiefly, and, most insolently, glory. Which, to clear unto you, at such length, and in such evidence, as I well could, and, the Matter, al-so, requireth; it were a longer Speech, than this short Occasion of Conference affordeth us. But, if you list to take pains, you may read, what I have, at more length, written hereof, in my DISPUTATIONS, FOR OUR CALLINGS, and, in my COMMENTARY, on 
Revel. 11. and 14  the REVELATION. Which, with the little that I have now said, when you have more deeply considered; then, if you remain yet unsatisfyed, how-so-ever I neither love, to contend with the Humourous, nor to multiply Babbling, upon Blocks; yet, I will, at your Desire, not stick, to take more pains, upon your Ingenuity.  Philomathes. 
I will, GOD willing, read those Books, whereunto you have sharpened mine Appetite, by that which you have now spoken: having, there-by, so filled mine Heart, with great Doubts, of such things, as I accounted inexpugnable points: that, I can not choose, but to insist, till I be settled, as it shall please GOD to inform me, in that which is the right Way of His Fear.  Philadelphus. 
How invisible soever we be, (Eriphilus) and how short soever you be of sight, yet, I hope, you may, now, perceive your own foil, in the chief Flower of your Forces: so, as Eubulus hath not (as you presumed) evanished, in invisibility, but, hath made all your, long, and vainly vaunted of, visibility, to vanish, in a vain Smoke.  

What's visible; but, thereto visibility,  
In common, doth, though not alike, conveane?  
Why should the Bride, without all Probability,  
Visible hers, then singularly, wiene?  
Things visible, attour, are not aye seen:  
And things even seen, yet will escape Perception,  
Of lightened Men: and what perceived been,  
Mules against that, will madly make Exception.  
The Church was aye seen, visible, perceived:  
Of clear, but no of rakie Eyes, that raved.   Philomathes. 
Whether we have any such Foil, as you allege; or, you such Victory, as you presume, (Philadelphus) you are always ready to sing your own Triumph. But, now, albeit we have, indeed, al-readie passed thorough these Marks, wherein we esteem ourselves strongest; and, that Eubulus hath (I must confess) answered, more than I expected: yet, I pray you, let us hear what he hath to say against the rest. The next Mark, is UNITY: and thus our Poet speaketh of it.   

CHAPTER VI.  

UNITY. 
Chrysost. Homil. 46, in Matth. He goeth not out of the Church, who goeth out bodily; but he who spiritually leaveth the Fundaments of Ecclesiastical Truth▪ We went out from them, in regard of place; but, they, from us, in regard o●… Faith. We have left, with them, th●… Fundamentes o●… Walls: but, they have left, with us, the Fundaments of Scriptures. Speciosum qu●…dem nomen est pacis, & pulchra est opi●… unitatis: sed q●… ambigat 〈◊〉 s●… Ecclesia atque Evangelior●… v●…tam p●…cem esse qu●… Christi est▪ Hilar▪ lib. contr. 〈◊〉▪ & alios Arri●…s▪ Hand ill●…●… Ecclesia pac●… disc●…, imò 〈◊〉 conseq●… fidei loade●… qui a 〈◊〉 perfidia sa segrega●…, & 〈◊〉 tagio crimi●… discod●…. Cypr. 〈◊〉 de U●…tat. Eccl●…   
THis is another Mark, truly,  
The Church must have UNITY:  
As our Saviour hath foretold,  
One Shepherd, and one Sheepfolde:  
One is my Spouse, one is my Love;  
One is my Darling, and my Dove.  
This is His House, and, at sometime,  
He doth resemble it to a Vine:  
HIS Father is the Husbandman;  
A Branch is every Christian.  
This is HIS Body mystical,  
The which HE doth HIS Kingdom call,  
whereof saint Peter had the Keys,  
And his Successors have always.   

This is the Pillar, and the Ground,  
Wherein all Truth is to be found.   

So, likewise, saint Paul sayeth,  
One Baptism, and one Faith,  
And, one LORD JESUS;  
Have no Dissension amongst you.   

Show me any Company,  
That in all Points do agree:  
Except the Holy Church of Rome,  
Then will I be converted soon.   Eubulus. 
That which, as I think, I have evinced, of all your Man's former Marks, I affirm, of this also; That, it is, impertinently, yea, falsely, produced, for a proper Mark of the Church: in so far, as it is a common condition of many things, yea, all things that are, (hoc ipso quod sunt, anum sunt) even in that they are, they are, in that same, one; as all Schools acknowledge. The Devils are united; for, Satan's Kingdom is not divided against itself: And, Briggands, 
●…. 25. ●…. 14.  banded to rob, and shed Blood, are one. So, as still, you see, that your Man's main Proposition, of his main Argument, is vain, and sophistical. Neither will UNITY, in all points, ever conclude more of the Church of CHRIST, than of the Antichristian body, except UNITY, in all points, be modified: and, of an indefinite UNITY, it be defined, an UNITY, in all points, of Truth. To which, only demonstrative Mark, (as I have showed of all the former;) so, this of UNITY, must be reduced also, if there-on, you would build any sure Conclusion. For, of the Antichristian Company, the holy Ghost, hath in plain Terms, foretold, These have one mind, and shall give their power, and authority, to the 
verse. ●….  Beast: and a little after, For GOD hath put in their Hearts, to fulfil his will; and to do, with one consent, for to give their Kingdoms to the Beast, until the words of GOD be fulfilled. And, this is, indeed, that UNITY, whereof your Men, so much glory, even a Conspiracy in Error, and no true UNITY in Truth; as their manifold, and shameless Shift, (in a clear evidence, of a selfe-accusing-guiltinesse) from subduing their doctrine, to just examination, by Scripture, the sole Rule of Verity, make more than manifest. Now, Satan never yet envied UNITY, in Error: or, ZEAL, in Superstition.  Philomathes. 
Well: to let this go with you, of UNITY, which you have, indeed, evinced, of the former: that it is no proper Mark: yet, as I said, and you also admitted of the others: so, you can not deny, of UNITY, but that it is a true Attribute of the Church: and, that, therefore, our Man's Argument, for the Church of Rome, concludeth very clearly, thus:  
The Church of CHRIST, must be a Company, keeping Unity, in all Points.  
But, only, of all Companies, the Church of Rome, keepeth Unity, in all Points.  
Therefore, the Church of Rome, is the only true Church of CHRIST.  Eubulus. 
I will not quarrel the form of your Syllogism, 
II.  for that your Assumption, hath the nature of a negative Position. I say, your Proposition is sophistical; and, your Assumption, shamelessly, false: where-by, your Conclusion cometh to nought. As for the Proposition, though you should modify your indefinite, all Points, to definitlie, all Points, of Truth: yet hath it enfolded a deep Deceit. For, if it be understood, of All Points of Truth, so absolutely, as, who keep not Unity, in all, and every point thereof, be excluded from the Title of CHRIST HIS Church: then is your Proposition perniciously false. And, your Man would but, fraudule●…tlie, put forth a bloody Table of Proscription, where-by, cruelly, to forfault many good Christian, and Church, from the Communion of the Body, even by a deceitful confounding, of whatsoever points of Truth, and, whatsoever degrees of Division, or Dissension: which must be wisely, and carefully, distinguished. For, there be many points of Truth, wherein diversity of judgement, breaketh not the Unity of the Church: Yea, and many Divisions, and Dissensions, which, yet, divyde not the dissenting Members, one from another: or, if one from another, yet, neither of them from the Head, or common Body; from which those, only, may be said, absolutely, to fall, which hold not the Head, or, subvert, directly, and with pertinacy, the Foundation. For, many, in weakness, will hold Opinions, which, indeed, do even chop against the Foundation, by clear, and necessary Consequence; but not immediately, or directly. So, as, if you should challenge the Holder's, of that which their opinion doth import, they will not only deny it, but even abhor the sequel of that which they maintain, but not with that mind. And, it were great want of Charity, to judge alike of these, and of the others. We are all, here, still, compassed with Infirmity; knowing, but in part, and, prophesying, but in part. In which Case, the Apostle, charitably, advyseth, That, Who are perfect, they be so minded: and, if any be otherways minded, that the LORD 
5.  will reveal it unto them: but that, in the time, in that whereto we are come, we ought to proceed, by one Rule, mynding the same things. I confess, & many hundreths do regrate it, with Tears, That the Infirmity of men's minds, too far in selfe-wiening, wedded to their own Sense, and, not humbly receiving Information, or, charitably comporting, with weak Brethren, (according to the Apostle's Rule) both hath bred, and still breedeth, too many bitter, and unnecessary Distractions, and scandalous Schisms; about such things, as, if Humility, and Love, had overruled men's Affections, neither were, nor are, of such Moment, wherefore the Unity of Men, holding still one, and the same Head, and, keeping one, and the same Foundation, should be so lightly broken, or, the Peace of GOD His House troubled: But, the weakness, and, not duelie-mortified Humours of Men, maketh not the Truth of GOD to fail. That Dissensions, and Divisions are, it declareth Men, to be, yet, in that part, carnal: but, it doth not separate them, from the common Body, so long as they hold one, and the same LORD, one Faith, one Hope, one Baptism, and are united in one, and the same Spirit: no more, than did this Defect, in the Church of Corinth; which, albeit, that, herefore, the Apostle did rebuke, as carnal, 
●…h. 3. 1.  in that; yet, he still did entitle, with the Name of CHRIST His Church. And, though, by any such Schism, either a Person, or Company, should be divided, from particular, either Church or Churches; it will not, therefore, follow, (& I think, none dare avouch it) that, therefore, they are separated from the Head, or common Body: so, to make them in alike Case, with haereticall Subverters of the Foundation, and, Deserters of the Head. We see, by Experience, in natural Bodies, That, by inflicted Wounds, such Gaps will be made, as the sides of the Wound, either from other, will start asunder: and, so, one part of the Body, by a separating Wound, will be severed from another part: which, both, will yet remain still united in the common Body, and, be partakers of one, and the same common Sense, Motion, and Life, from one, and the same Head, and Heart. Thus (Philomathes) your Poet's Proposition, absolutely affirmed, is false; even when he hath modified his indefinite, All Points, to all Points, of Truth.  Philomathes. 
That no Unity argueth any Company, to be CHRIST'S Church, but Unity in Truth, I must needs confess it: and, that every diversity of opinion, or every degree of Distraction, doth not separate the dissenters, or distracted, mutually from other; or, at least, either of them from the common Body, and Head, I cannot deny, but that you have evinced it clearly. Yet, so many, and so material, are the Divisions amongst your Churches, and your Quarrels are debated so bitterly: and, again, so great is the Harmony, and Concord, of the Romish Church, as, I think, giveth just Reason, to suspect of you, that you are not, nor can not, be united, as you spoke, in one, and the same LORD, Faith, Hope, Baptism, and Spirit: and, that the Church of Rome, hath only, and evidently, this Honour.  Eubulus. 
Now, (Philomathes) you put the Life of your 
III.  Syllogism, in the Hands of your Assumption, to stand, or fall, therewith. And, denying us any such Unity, as may argue a Church of CHRIST, you have appropriated all to Rome, how justly, we will, even now, examine: and, first, your Objection against us, is, many ways sophistical. First, if such be accounted ours, who are none of us, the imputation is unjust. We acknowledge, and do lament it, that there is too great Division, and variety of Sects, calling themselves Christians, in the world: but, what do most part of them, more, or so much concern us, as they concern your Church of Rome? out of whose dongue, as noisome Flees, they are bred: and by Satan's craft, coming to fly on, upon our Churches, (that by the mixture of their Poison, they may bring the Truth in disgrace) are only, by us diligently resisted, and their Errors clearly convinced: while, in the mean time, your Romish Church, (whose brood they are) is careless of any thing, but to suppress the Truth; and, calumniouslie, to lay over, on us, the Stink of their own Excrements. As for such, whom we will not disadvow, in common, (how-so-ever we will not justify the Ambition, Giddiness, and bitterness of some particular Men, who, as fyrebrands, disturb, humurouslie, and unnecessarily, the Peace of the Church) I affirm, that no such material Points are in differ betwixt us, in common, wherefore, we, both, may not, and ought not, embrace others, mutually, as Brethren. Which, that we do not, it is our weakness, and the malicious work, of but a few evil-inspired Instruments; seeking more their own Estimation, than GOD his Glory, and good of His Church. And, that no such Separation is betwixt us, but that, how-so-ever, by a cruel Wound, of merciless Hands, we are separated, one of us, from another; yet we are still joined in the common Head, and in the common Body, each of us to other. So, as your Man's odious enumeration of Protestants, Puritans, Calvinists, Zwinglians, and, if you list, to add to them, Lutherans, also, is but a calumnious traducing, of such, as, most part, are not separated either from other: or at least, how-so-ever, by some weakness, they be in that sort distracted, yet, are but one Body, joined in one, and the same LORD, Faith, Hope, Baptism; and informed, all of them, by one and the same Spirit, albeit not all, in alike measure. Amongst whom, there is no just breach of Communion: how-so-ever, that, by a Wound, of some cruel and espiteful Men, those you do call Lutherians, are, unnecessarily, separated from the rest: but, none of us, from the common Head, and Body, in which we are still united, and will be yet more & more nearly: our Concord, in GOD, and His Truth, growing, as your Unity, in Evil, shall be broken off: the will of GOD being fulfilled, in all the work of Antichrist's deceit, justly upon the World, for contempt of His Truth. And, thus (Philomathes) your Assumption, where-by you deny us any such Unity, as, of necessity, is required in the Church of CHRIST, for keeping, justly, that Account, is false. And, no less false is it, al-so, in that, what you would rob us of, you do appropriate to Rome: which can not be, truly, praised for any Unity, except that which before I mentioned, out of the seaventeenth Chapter of the REVELATION, which is the only Unity proper unto her, and, accordingly, there foretold of her. For, otherways, she hath fallen away, foully, both from the Head, and the Foundation: and, can never be said, to have keeped Unity with the true Body; otherways, than the accressing Sore, or Apostume in the Body, but not of it, may be said, to be one with the Body. And, your Man bewrayeth, very well, how poorly provided he is, of any sure probation of his Unity: when, for all Argument, where-by to evince an Union, in one LORD, one Faith, one Hope, one Baptism, and one true, and sanctifying Spirit, he is not ashamed, impudently, to take that, which is the very main point in question. Whither, I pray you, did his Poetic Fury transport him; when, without blushing, to sustain his Assumption, on which all the life of his Cause depended, he brought this only, and goodly, Argument?  
That Church, only, keepeth Unity, in all points, which cleaveth to the Pope.  
But, the Church of Rome, only, cleaveth to the Pope.  
Therefore, the Church of Rome, only, keepeth Unity, in all points.  
The Proposition of this his Demonstration, he proveth, by this; That the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, were given to Peter. But the Pope is Peter's Successor. Ergo, do you require me, (Philomathes) to make any answer to these your Man his Raveries? Or, if he had been set, of very purpose, to play the Praevaricator in the Cause, which he pleadeth; could he more ridiculously, I will not say, have reasoned, but raved: We neither deny, nor envy your Church, her Unity with the Pope; albeit, in christian Compassion, we pity it. But, we deny, your Mischief to have any Union, either with the Head, Foundation, or Body, except as a Sore in it, but not of it. And, to clear yet farther, the falsehood of your Man's main Assumption, of Unity, (That the Church of Rome, keepeth Unity in all points) and how vain he is, in vaunting thereof: if your Poet had as carefully picked out the Partialities of his Romish Church, (even in this their damnable and cursed conspiracy) as he hath, with a perverse mind, and poisonable Eye, pried in our Distractions: What great matter, of Insulting, hath he, or any of his profession, against our Churches, for any Division, betwixt us, and these whom they do call LUTHERIANS? If he were as powerful a Peacemaker, as he proveth an impertinent Prattler, he might have found, at Home, to work upon, not only great Dissensions, but even as bitter, and material, Digladiations, as any is amongst us. When all our Controversy, amongst ourselves, about the manner of Presence, and participation of CHRIST, in the sacred Supper, is duly weighed; what shall be found, there-in, comparable to the manifold Debates, amongst your Schoolmen, about the manner of their prodigious TRANSUBSTANTIATION? whence, as from an horrible Hydra, so many monstruouslie divers Heads have sprung up, in their Schools, as never will be reconciled, till Fire, from Heaven, burn up all that intoxicated Body. When your Poet shall put at one, the Scotists, and Thomists; the franciscans, and Domicians; the Schoolmen, and the Canonists; their other Clergy, and the jesuists; when Blacke-well, and Bellarmine, shall accord, upon that main Point, of the Pope's Supremacy: (which, to believe, and that both, In temporalibus, & spiritualibus is, de necessitate salutis: that is, Necessary to Salvation, sayeth the one party) then might he, with the more credit, praesume, to tax our Distractions: Loripedem rectus derideat, Aethiopem albus. Now, then, your Man's Proposition, of his main Syllogism, of UNITY, being sophistical, and, his Assumption, clearly false; he will hardly, I trow, upon such Antecedents, conclude well, that the Church of Rome, is the only true Church of CHRIST.  Philadelphus. 
You have admitted the Church of Rome an UNITY; but, such, as wherein they have neither any matter of Glorying; and are, but even scarce, well united in that same sacrilegious Society.  

Who are united, only, but in Evil,  
And, scarcely well are in that same compacted;  
Less may they glory, than their Guide the Devil,  
Whose Kingdom is not, in itself, distracted.  
Killers, and Rogues, are, in a Course, contracted.  
That Concord, only, comes to be commended,  
When uncorrupt Companions, uncoacted,  
For Truth, and truly, are to-gether bended,  
In Unity, which is not thus defined,  
Fiends, Robbers, Killers, may be close combined.   Philomathes. 
As Eubulus in doing his best, to take from our Poet, the praise of a deep Divine; so, I perceive, (Philadelphus) that you mind not to permit him the Monopoly of the MUSES. But, now, it resteth, to speak of the Note of HOLINESS: and, I much muse, (Eubulus) if, as of all the former, so you will affirm of this al-so, That it is no proper Mark. For, I am sure, that to nothing under Heaven, doth the property of HOLINESS conveane, but to the Church of CHRIST only. And, again, (according to the Law you alleged of Propers') that whatsoever Men are holy, they must be of the Church of CHRIST: for, Holiness becometh His House.  Philadelphus. 
The Prophet ELISHA, being consulted by 
2. Kings. 3. 1●…  great Personages, and upon great Points, called for a Minstrel. And, mine advise were, (Eubulus) before you answer to this Mark of HOLINESS, that, even for refreshing of our Spirits, a little, 〈◊〉 hear their Man's Melody, upon that point.  Eriphilus. 
As your Minds are mistuned, you may, perhaps, find yourselves, nor greatly cheered therewith. For, how-so-ever, Eubulus, like a slippery Eel, by subtleties of Distinctions, hath slidden thorough all our preceding Marks; yet, as Philomathes, hath rightly said, I hope, HOLINESS, is such a sure one, as you can not deny; except, you would once, and in this one Point, prove true Men, even to profess yourselves, a profane Company.  Eubulus. 
Whatsoever a property we shall find HOLINESS to be, yet, (Eriphilus) I take bitter Passion, to be no proper Point of it. And, therefore, whatsoever your Man's Music, might work in us; yet, shall it not, incontinently, come presently in place, for mitigating, of your own Choleric Motions, by some greater Sympathy: which, perhaps, it shall find in you, than it can waken, up, in our (as you call them) mistuned Minds. Therefore, Philomathes, bring out your Cure quickly, for succouring of your Companion.  Philomathes. 
Indeed, the consideration of HOLINESS, would require, a calm Constitution. And these are our Man's Verses thereof.   

CHAPTER VII.  

HOLINESS.  
THIS you say, in very deed, 
ltiwne who ●…nge ●…. ●… a 〈◊〉 de ●…   
When you rehearse the Nicene Creed;  
One Church Catholic,  
Holy, and Apostolic.  
This is another Mark, truly;  
The Church must be holy:  
Holy Men, holy Service,  
Ceremonies, and Sacrifice,  
Sacraments, and holy Days,  
Are observed in her always.  
As for the saints, and Martyrs all;  
And Virgins, which you saints do call:  
Whose Names are in your Calendar,  
When lived they, and where?  
In what Religion was it they died?  
By whom were they Canonised?  
If it were not the Church of Rome,  
Then shall I be converted soon.  
If they were not your Company,  
Then is your Faith, an Heresy.   Philadelphus. 
I am, against both your Wish, and Expectation, (Eriphilus) so far cheered with your man's Poesy; as, if it may not trouble your cheer, I would ask, even cheerfully, of you; why he hath passed by the Apostolic Creed, (which, with some more credit, he might have cited; and, wherein, he might have found, al-so, the property of HOLINESS) to allege the Nicene? for, if he thought, that this word [Apostolic] would have marred his Metre, by making his Line a foot longer: yet, the shortness of his immediately, subsequent verses, might have recompensed that slip: neither hath he been, in the rest of this Rhyme, so squimmish, as to stand too praeciselie, on feet; or, half feet.  Eubulus. 
We will let this pass, (Philadelphus:) for as I 
I●…  protested before, I am not to insist, in taxing all his absurdities, no, not in the Matter, much less in his Metre, which is less material, I come to speak of this Mark of Holiness: and, before I enter to examine the Man's Logic, I will yield this much, That, this once, he hath fallen on a true Property of the Church of CHRIST: yea, and I will grant thus much more, That albeit all properties be not Marks, (because more is required for being a proper Mark, than only to be a proper Attribute) yet, that Holiness is even a proper Mark of CHRIST His Church; but, wherein the Church of Rome, hath as little, and less advantage, than in any of the former. And, for clearing of this, (Philomathes) I must, first, put out your Man, from the Lurking-denne of Aequivocation, wherein your Doctors delight to lie; and, thence, to shoot at the Innocent, in secret. For, if, by Holiness, be meaned, that sanctified Disposition of the Soul, and Affections, by the Spirit of Regeneration, wrought in all true Christians; in that Sense, it can be no Mark, because GOD, only, knoweth the Hearts of Men. And, we concluded, before, with consent of Bellarmine, That all Marks must, of necessity, fall under Sense. And, again, if by Holiness, be meaned, that which is seen, and exposed to perception, in men's outward carriage, according to the Law of Righteousness, in Manners, and common conversation; neither, thus, can it be a proper Mark of CHRIST HIS true Church. For, that, by the restraining Virtue of GOD HIS Spirit of Administration, even Heathen men, and Infideles, will appear, in all moral Virtues, matcheable to Christians; except, that we know, that whatsoever is not of Faith, is sin. Was not Paul unrebukable, as concerning the Law; while, yet, he was not only no Believer, but even a cruel Persecuter al-so?  Philomathes. 
How-so-ever outward Righteousness may not be a sure Mark of Men, considered absolutely; for that fair carriage, which by the restraining Virtue of the Spirit of Administration, will be even in Heathen men: yet, (as you did, in short words, make answer to yourself) that what is not of Faith, is sin; and, that, therefore, no Heathen conversation, how approved soever, can be counted for true Holiness: So, amongst Professors of Christianity, I think, that Holiness in life and manners, must be a most sure discerning Mark, whereby to know the true Church, as which must, in them, be praesumed, to proceed of Faith. And we are a-searching of such Notes, as in the community of Christians, all acclayming the Title of the Church, may discern the Upright, from the Bastard, in that same kind. So, as your Objection, of Heathen carriage, in this case, is clearly the same Sophism, which, you may remember, that, before, you taxed in our Men.  Eubulus. 
Do you not know, (Philomathes) that, 
II.  even amongst Professoures', not only will Hypocrites, in all these Outwards, appear to go far beyond, even the most sincere, and single-hearted Christians; but, even superstitious, and corrupt worshippers, yet in a blind zeal, will seem to keep more precisely, the way of HOLINESS, and RIGHTEOUSNESS, than who have more, and truer Light?  
And if no more were to lead you, to know, that HOLINESS, in this kind, can be no Mark, this, alone, might tell it you; That your own Men, always, in their Disputes with us, about the true Church, Doctrine, and Worship, do reject, (and that justly) all Arguments brought by us, against any persons, or personal actions of Men. How-so-ever, again, in charging us, they do forget themselves, so far, as, always, to fall to personal, and, those, impudently false, and unjust Criminations. So, as you may see, that, of necessity, this Mark of HOLINESS, must be understood of an holy, and lawful Worship, and holy, and pure Doctrine. And, albeit I confess, that this can never be anie-where, but, that, therewith, al-so, shall be some number of Names, both inwardly sanctified, by the word, and Spirit, and, al-so, showing forth their Faith, by their works: yet, it is the HOLINESS of Doctrine, and lawful, and pure Worship, which is the proper Mark of the true Church: and, not either the inward Sanctification of the Soul, which we see not: or, the only outward Manners, wherein we may be deceived.  
of your Man's Argument, I will now set it before you, that you may see the Force thereof:  
That Company, which, only, hath in it holy Men, holy Service, Ceremonies, Sacrifice, Sacraments, Days, etc. must be the Church of GOD. But, in the Church of Rome, only, these are to be found. Therefore, the Church of Rome, is the only Church of GOD.  
Now, to grant his Proposition, or Major, in such Sense, as wherein I have, all-readie, cleared, and you, also, (Philomathes) have confessed, That, only, it can consist. I deny his Assumption, or Minor, as which is shamelessly false: except, by the only, sure, and layde-downe Rule, he prove it.  Philadelphus. 
You must attend (Eubulus) the Probation of his Assumption, in the next Proper Ballad, that happeneth to break out of the Super-aboundance of his poetical Vein: and, suspend his Conclusion, till then. And, that, in the time, he may, the more seriously, set himself for it; what, if from his own Grounds, whereof he glorieth, one should draw this contrary Conclusion?  
That Company, which hath turned all the Worship of GOD, (Who will be worshipped, in Spirit, and Truth) in a profane Histrionicke Farce: which teacheth, for Doctrines, the Traditions of Men': which burdeneth the Consciences of Christians, (whom their Lord will have to be free, saith Augustine) with innumerable idle, & superstitious Ceremonies, of Man's invention; in the multitude whereof, all true Religion, is not only buried, but, al-so, lost: Which, after that perfect Sacrifice, which CHRIST offered, once for all, offereth still Expiatory Sacrifices, for Sin: Which devyseth Sacraments of their own, which they have not received from the LORD: Which, superstitiously, keep Days, and Time's: Which set up saints departed, and erect Images, to be worshipped, with Religious Adoration: Who, glorying of Fathers, and Martyrs, are, themselves, Persecuters, and Murderers of the saints: That Company can not be the Church of CHRIST; but is, undoubtedly, The Antichristian Synagogue. But, such is the Church of Rome. Therefore, the Church of Rome, is not the true Church of CHRIST, but is, The Antichristian Synagogue.  
Now, as your Man's stout Asseveration, of holy Service, Ceremonies, Sacrifice, Sacraments, Days, etc. will not exeme your Church from the Stain of this Conclusion; except you try, & verify them to be such, by that only Touchstone, which, in any case, you desire never to be touched: so will his vain Acclaiming of all the saints, Martyrs, and Virgins, contained in our Calendar, and the pretended canonising of them, much less help him. What they have been, who are contained in our Calendar, we are not much curious to inquire; because we hold it not for a Register of saints, but for a civil Rule, where-by to calculate Time's. And I praesume, that janus, julius, and Augustus, are none of the number written in Heaven, as, perhaps, no more are some others, who are written in the Calendar; whose Names, yet, in civil use, may serve fitly for Notes of Time's. And I think, verily, your Poet hath lost, both the Year of GOD, and Dominical Letter, al-so, when he is proving Religion, from the Calendar: which, we esteemed, ever should be cleared from Scripture. And, he hath dipped his Mind so deeply in this Study, as he asketh, when, and where, they lived. But, foolish Man, it is neither the rhyme, when, nor the place where, any Man, either liveth, or dieth, that maketh him a Christian. But, that third thing in his Question, which, only, for all; except to multiply Babbling, he should have asked, namely, in what Faith they lived, and died? And, then, we answer, That, if they were saints, indeed, they both lived, and died, in the same Faith which we hold; and were even of our Company: which Company, is not defined by Time, when, or place where, but by the union of whatsoever people, in whatsoever place, and of whatsoever time, in one LORD, one Faith, one Spirit, on Baptism, etc. for all saints are sanctified by the Truth: and, Thy Word is Truth, sayeth our Saviour. And, giving this, that all these saints had been, not only in the Company of the Church of Rome, then, but, also, that they had been of her Company, (for many, even now, are in her Company, which are not of it: Come out of her, my People, sayeth the Spirit) and holding one, and the same Faith, which Rome, at that time, held: yet, as Eubulus hath now more than once told you, What will any Praise, or Prerogative of Rome, then, make for Rome, now, which is not now of the Company of Rome, then; but is the Synagogue of Satan; whereas, Rome, of old, was of our Company?  Eriphilus. 
What? (Philadelphus) will you make those, whom the Church of Rome hath Canonised, to be of your Company? they were Canonised, I tell you, may Ages before Luther was borne.  Philadelphus. 
Of their Canonising, (Eriphilus) I will not, now, much dispute, whether it was farther, either to their honour, who were so Canonised; or to theirs, who sacrilegiously praesume to rob GOD of His proper Honour, in making saints: or to the reproach, and disgrace, of both. I am certain, that whom GOD hath sanctified, he is, and will be, a saint, though the Pope, and all the Conclave, had concluded the contrary: and, whom GOD hath not sanctified, no power in the World, can make holy. I say, that in this your glorying, of Canonising saints, you have as valide an Argument, for the Church of Rome, as the building of the Prophet's Tombs, and garnishing of their Sepulchers, was for the jews, 
●…th, 23. 29.  whose Fathers were Murderers of the Prophets, and themselves, crucifiers of the LORD of Glory. And our Faith, (Eriphilus) was not borne, with Luther, no more, than your Heresy, was borne with you: but, our Faith, is the same Faith, where-by all Faithful, in all Ages, and Places, ever lived: as yours is that same deceitful Illusion, which, even in the Apostolic times, Satan was a-hatching: and, which, having by slow degrees, mounted to so monstrous an height, is now, again, near the dead-trach, to the Devil's great displeasure.  Philomathes. 
If EUBULUS, and I, shall give over to you, PHILADELPHUS, and, to ERIPHILUS, the reasoning of this Matter, I fear, we must provided us, somewhere, of long Weapons, to go betwixt you, so Satyric are you, and so Choleric is ERIPHILUS.  Philadelphus. 
Verily, (Philomathes) I mind not to free Eubulus of that Task, whereof he can much better acquit himself, than I am able: and, if Eriphilus take my Counsel, he shall behold you also, to plead your part. And, it is not so much any Satyric Speeches of mine, (as it pleaseth you to call them) which have marred Eriphilus Mirth, as Eubulus sad Syllogisms; whereby, he hath so sacked all your Poet his proper Marks, as, how-so-ever, at first, rejecting my Sonnets, he summoned us to Syllogisms; yet, I perceive him, now, so surfeyted with them, that, in a compassion of his Choleric Passion, I will yet, vouchsafe him one Sonnet, to swadge it; wherein, he shall not challenge one Satyric Syllable.  

Catholic can not be to Sense subdued:  
Continuance is but a common Case.  
Things Visible, are oftentimes unviewed.  
What's Unity; if it be not in Grace?  
Hypocrisy, sometime, ●…surpes the place  
Of Holiness, if true Light be not Leader.  
Who Flesh, for Spirit, who Shades, for Sooth, embrace:  
The more devote, more doting they're, and deader.  
Wouldst thou stand stayed, ' 'gainst all, both Doubts & Dangers,  
Follow CHRIST'S Voice, and flee the voice of Strangers.   Philomathes. 
I know not, how your Sonnet hath wrought on Eriphilus mind: but, verily, you have made your word good, in this, That in all your Sonnet, there is not one Sarcasticke Syllable: albeit it be so full of Sentence, as you have compryzed, in a short Sum, the Drift of all Eubulus Discourse, against our Man's Marks. But, now, both the Day, and the Way, are shortening: and, we have, yet, one Point, to pass thorough: namely, of HAERETICKES. You have been so difficile, (Eubulus) to grant us the Title of the true Church, and have so far set at naught all our Notes: as, I would gladly hear, how you will clear your own Churches, from this imputation of HERESY, which our Man, here, at great length, layeth against you.  Eubulus. 
If he could have proved his power in any 
V.  thing, he would, chiefly, have employed it, for the credit of his own Church, and Cause. Wherein, if he had prevailed, he should, with one, and the same travel, have overthrown us, also. As, accordingly, you see, how, in all his alleged Marks, he laboureth, to appropriate them so to Rome, (and, there-upon, to conclude of her, That she is the true Church) that, therewith, also, by a Consequence, in his Conceit, clear anough, our Churches, as defective, were condemned by him. And, indeed, if he could possibly have well instructed the one, we had the less place to plead against the other. For Rome's justification, should, sufficiently, convince us; like as the justifying of our Churches, showeth her to be Satan's Synagogue. But, if I have made him to be seen a weak Soldier, for himself, it may well be praesumed, that he will prove no great Masteries against us; how-so-ever he assaileth us, with an Army of Interrogatours; if so be, that by the hudgenesse of the number, in common, the particular imbecility, of each severally, might be supplied. And, to manifest this unto you, (Philomathes) in all his Rhyme, (inscrybed HERETICS) he racketh his Engine, to prove our Churches, to be haereticall, even by this main Argument:  
To whom the Notes of Haeretickes, do, properly, conveane: and, in whom manifold Defects are found, which can not befall the true Church: they must, of necessity, be haereticall.  
But, to the Protestant Churches, the Notes of Heretics do, properly, conveane: and, manifold Defects, which can not befall the true Church.  
Therefore, the Protestant Churches, are haereticall.  
The Major of this Syllogism, is so clearly true, as it can not be gaynesayde. How he proveth his Minor, we will try, GOD willing, when you have read unto us his Verses there-on. And, first, concerning the first point of haereticall properties, to which I will, first, make answer: and, thereafter, with no great ado, we will overturn all his Interrogatours, of those Defects, which he would father upon our Churches.  Philomathes. 
Then, take heed, how he describeth you.   

CHAPTER VIII.  

HAERETICKES.  
OUR Saviour warns us, to have care,  
Of false Prophets to beware,  
That in His Name should come:  
Not sent, yet they would run:  
Thiefs, not entering by the Door,  
That kill, and steal, and keep a-store:  
Wolves, in Sheep's clothing,  
To kill Souls, and steal the Teaching:  
Thistles, Thorns, corrupted Ground,  
On whom no good Fruit is found:  
Living after their Lusts, truly;  
Whose god is their own Belly:  
Dogs, Foxes, and Masters of Lies,  
That new Sects will devise;  
Bringing in Dissension,  
And heap to themselves Perdition.  
These Marks agree with you,  
More than the pagan, Turk, or jew:  
For they deny the Name of CHRIST,  
And counterfeit no Christian Priest.   Eubulus. 
Stay there, Philomathes: for in these Verses, is 
●…  the probation of that first point of his Assumption, whereby the Notes of Haeretickes are affirmed of us: and, now, I pray you, advert a deadly Demonstration, where-by you said, jestinglie, that he describeth us:  
Those Marks, given us, to discern Haeretickes, conveane but to such as profess the Name, and Worship, of CHRIST.  
But, you Protestants, profess the Name, and Worship▪ of CHRIST.  
Therefore, these Marks conveane to you: and, consequently, you are Haeretickes.  
Now, how Choleric soever you take Eriphilus to be in this Cause; yet, I will even admit him judge, of this sad Syllogism, where-by your Poet will prove us Haeretickes. Would you allow me, (Eriphilus) to conclude your Ballader, a barking Dog, thus? Barking can conveane, but to living, and sensitive Creatures: but, your Ballader, is a living, and sensitive Creature: therefore, barking conveaneth to him; and, consequently, he is a Dog.  Eriphilus. 
He is very skilless in Logic, who knoweth not, that of miere Affirmatives, in the second figure, no thing can conclude. And, you but skornfullie afforge to our Man, so senseless a manner of Argumentation.  Eubulus. 
I am content (Eriphilus) it be esteemed so of me; 
I  if, bending thereto all your Skill in Logic, you shall be able, out of your Man's Verses, to frame any other form of Conclusion, than that, which you say, I have afforged unto him. This is the sum of his last read Verses; Such, and such, are the Notes of Haeretickes: which Notes, conveane, only, to Men professing CHRIST; for, to jews, Turks, and Pagans, who deny His Name, they can not be competent. But, you, Protestants, profess the Name of CHRIST: and, therefore, etc.  Philomathes. 
Verily, (Eriphilus) I fear, that both our Skills, in Logic, shall, hardly, find out a better form of our Man's words: wherein Eubulus hath so opened a childish oversight, as I can not find, well, a Veil to cover it.  Eriphilus. 
At worst, it is but a fault in form; which, in a well-consisting matter, may be soon mended. 
TWO   Eubulus. 
But, I pray you, (good Eriphilus) though you had a Syllogism, at your own shaping, will you ever find matter, whereof to make it, or, us Haeretickes, by it; in this, that we profess CHRISTIANITY? or, putting it even to the Rack, will it afford any reason, wherefore to bind on us, the Notes of Haeretickes, more than on the Church of Rome, which professeth the Name, & Worship, of CHRIST, also? Except you will be allowed, to reply, as one of your Profession, one day, disputing with me, of Antichrist, (when I propounded an Argument, where-by I concluded, that of the Pope; in place of resuming the parts of my Reason) answered me confusedly, and confidently, That, find him out, as we could, otherways, the Pope could not, possibly, be once suspected to be Antichrist, for he is CHRIST HIS Vicar. Shall we be counted Haeretickes, (Eriphilus) only, because it pleaseth your Poet, so to call us? To whom these Notes do most fitly agree, let the rightlie-illuminated, judge: and, He will judge one day, who judgeth righteously, and, whose is all judgement. We pass very little, to be judged by your Man: yea, we judge not ourselves.  Philadelphus. 
You are too sharp sighted, (Eubulus:) he hath thought, that under the sweetness of Poesy, such a slip in Logic, might have easily been concealed.  Eubulus. 
That might have been praesumed of Sirens, singing 
IV.  unto Swine. But, to leave the Man, with his own Logic; I would demand of you, (Philomathes) why, in so long an Enumeration of haereticall Notes, he hath passed over those, where-by the holy Ghost witnesseth, that Haeretickes, and of this time, may be most clearly known? And, what a Conscience doth it argue, to amass a number, whereof the application may breed but jangling; and, to keep silence, of the most notifying Notes of all?  Philadelphus. 
You still mistake the Man, (Eubulus:) Charity beginneth at one's self: and, accordingly, their Poet is so full of Self-love, as he never minded to produce aught, where-by to praejudge his own cause.  Philomathes. 
But, what are those Notes, (Eubulus) with the fraudulent omission, whereof you do charge our Man?  Eubulus. 
I will essay, by a more formal Syllogism, than 
V.  he framed against us, to lead you both to know them, and to acknowledge of them, that they so nearly touch your Romish Church, as might make your Man think, they were no Wares, for him to exhibit:  
What Company teacheth Doctrines of Devils, and, by Devilish Dealing, do verify themselves, to be Satan's Children; that Company must be Haereticall.  
But, the Church of Rome, teacheth Doctrines of Devils, and, by Devilish Dealing, do verify themselves to be Satan's Children.  
Therefore, the Church of Rome, is an Haereticall Company.  Philomathes. 
Indeed, (Eubulus) your Syllogism hath a better form, but a much badder matter.  Eubulus. 
And if I make the matter, as good as the form, 
●…  than all shall hold good; wherein, yet, (that I may be charitably conceived) I mean by the Church of Rome, (as I have, now more than once signified) the Evil in the Body, not, absolutely, the Body affected therewith: the papality, not all, who are named Papists: not all, who have the Name, or Number of the Beast, but who have his Character.  Philomathes. 
If, even thus, you make your matter good, we have lost a gain.  Eubulus. 
Then, let us examine the parts of mine Argument. 
V●…  I hope you will admit my Major.  Philomathes. 
It can not be denied. It resteth you, to prove your Minor.  Eubulus. 
My Minor, or Assumption, chargeth papality, 
VI●…  or charactarized Papists, with two maligning Marks; Doctrines of Devils, and Devilish Dealing. I will, first, prove the one, and then the other, also. That the Church of Rome, teacheth Devilish Doctrine, I prove it thus:  
Who forbid Marriage, and command to abstain from Meats, which GOD hath ordained to be received with Thanksgiving, they teach Doctrines of Devils. But, the Church of Rome, forbiddeth Marriage, and commandeth, to abstain from Meats, which GOD hath ordained, to be received with Thanksgiving.  
Therefore, the Church of Rome, teacheth Doctrines of Devils.  Philomathes. 
The Major of your Argument, is from Paul, 
1. Tim. 4. 3.  and can not be denied. I distinguish your Minor: for, if you say, that the Church of Rome, either forbiddeth Marriage, absolutely, and, as a thing, absolutely, and in itself, damnable: or, commandeth, to abstain from Meats, absolutely, as from things, absolutely, and in themselves, unclean; (which is the forbidding, and commanding meaned of the Apostle) then is your Assumption false. But, that the Church of Rome, in some respects, and to some persons, forbiddeth Marriage; and, in some respects, commandeth, to abstain from some Meats, I do not deny. But, this is not against the Apostle his mind; who prophesied, in that place, of some ancient Haeretickes, in the Primitive Church, who, absolutely, damned Marriage, and divers sorts of Meats, as, in themselves, polluted.  Eubulus. 
If so serious, and hazardous points, be well, or 
IX.  wisely, put upon the danger of so cavillatorie a Distinction, devised by Men, I report me to your own Conscience: that, others, before, have been in the same sin, and, perhaps, in some farther degree thereof; what doth that excuse the Romish Church; which, in any degree, praesumeth to forbid, and command that, the forbidding, and commanding whereof, the holy Ghost affirmeth, to be Devilish? Is not this to play, and that even perilouslie, in a serious matter? The Church (you say) doth not condemn Marriage: but, the Apostle maketh even the forbidders thereof, to be Devilish Doctors. And, yet, if who are in the flesh, are, in that, to be condemned, (by the Apostle's Doctrine:) how can you absolve your Romish Church, of condemning 
〈◊〉, ad Hime●…, cap. 7.  Marriage; when she affirmeth, of married people, That they are in the flesh? Now, where you affirm, the Apostle, in that Prophecy, to have eyed only the ancient Haeretickes, absolute condemners of Marriage, and Meats; all circumstances of the place, evince, manyfestlie, that he neither eyed them only, nor principally: but, that also, and principally, the holy Ghost eyed your Church of Rome. I let this go, that he speaketh of the latter times, which yet (I am persuaded) hath a narrower relation, than that, where-by, I know, you will seek to shift this point. He speaketh, therewith, of such, as, by great and cunning Hypocrisy, should have so great place, as, by Authority, to forbid, and command. But, it is well known, that the ancient Haeretickes, maintainers of these Doctrines, were, in their very first out-setting, exsibilated, and abhorred, commonly, of all: and, that, both they, and their Doctrine, soon evanished. So, as, it is plain, that so serious a warning of the Apostle, is chiefly, in regard of more dangerous Doctors, and so far, by Hypocrisy, obtaining place, and authority in the Church, as to come proudly to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, (interdicting, and commanding.) And, thus, (Philomathes) all your distinction, of mine Assumption, is vain, and cavillatorie: and, so, will never vindicate your Romish Church, from the guilt of my Conclusion.  Philomathes. 
Verily, allbeeit I dare not condemn the Church, or suspect rashly of her, in these, or any such points: yet, I will not deny, but that I could have wished her, to have been less audacious, in so perilous a Case, and to have given you less advantage against her herein. But, go forwardly. You took, also, for to prove, against our Church, That, by Devilish Dealing, they verified themselves, to be Satan's Children; which was the seconde point, of your main Assumption, against us.  Eubulus. 
I prove it, thus: 
X.   
Who are Liars, and Murderers, like their father, the devil, their Dealing is Devilish; and, they verify themselves, there-by, to be the Devils Children.  
But, the Church of Rome, are Liars, and Murderers, like their Father, the Devil.  
Therefore, their Dealing is Devilish; and, they verify of themselves, that they are Satan his Children.  Eriphilus, 
Is this, forsooth, the calm Conference you protested for? And, are you the Man, that so far abhorreth bitter Contention; who falleth, thus, not only to Bitterness, but even to open Reproaches, and impudent Railing? Did not you, in Disputation, about Points of Doctrine, disallow all personal Criminations? Wherein, to all, and any Instances, which you can bring against us, when we have opposed as many, and as odious, on your side; shall not all our Dispute, but finish in a foul Flyting?  Eubulus. 
I have neither, as yet, touched any man his 
XI.  person, or spoken of any personal Action, of Lying, and Murdering; neither mind I, by any such Instances, to strengthen mine Assumption, how many, and how tragical soever, I might easily produce, and those of recent Practice. So as, thus once again (Eriphilus) heat, hath made you too hasty. Whatsoever Instances you might oppose to me, of our Men, in personal Recriminations; yet, I am sure, that you shall never verify of any, on our side, that they teach, and, by public Books, maintain, That it is lawful to lie, and to commit Murder. So, as, if I prove, that your ROMANISTES, not only practice privily, but, also, teach, yea, and maintain, openly, That it is lawful to lie, and murder, I hope, I shall make mine Assumption good; and, yet, never a whit, therefore, decline from the course of a calm Conference, and Rules of a lawful Disputation.  Eriphilus. 
When you clear so great a Calumny, then shall I confess my too great heat in an evil Cause.  Eubulus. 
Will you not grant me, (Eriphilus) that, 
XII.  who praise the Art of Simulation, and Dissimulation, to be both good, and profitable, and, call it Prudence, and Virtue, yea, and a good Prudence: and affirm, That who use it, are to be praised, those are Teachers, of Men, to become Liars?  Eriphilus. 
You will not, so easily as you trow, get me entrapped, with your Interrogatours: for, there is some even Godly and prudent Simulation.  Eubulus. 
I mind no such Circumvention, as you 
XIII  fear, but most plain Dealing, for gaining of you, more than my Point. And, to show you how far I am, from entertaining impertinent Plea, I will not, now, question with you, about this, how well any Simulation may be made to accord with Prudence, and Piety. But, let the Instances, which I shall produce, bear witness, whether they be such, as may escape under this your Sconce. As for the Position, which I have brought, in all the Points thereof, your own Man, Martinus Navarrus Aspilcueta, (who hath written a whole Treatise, of Equivocations, in Favoures, as he professeth, of the Jesuits, In Cap. humanae aures, 12. Quaest 5.) affirmeth playnleie, In d. Cap. humanae, Pag. 352. & Pag. 349. Et pag. 351.  Eriphilus. 
You may, perhaps, wrong him, in this Imputation: But, and though any one such Man hath written so, yet ought it not be counted a common Fault of our CHURCH. How many of your Men, maintain Points, which your CHURCH, yet, disadvoweth in common?  Eubulus. 
If I do wrong him, his Book, and places 
XIV  thereof, alleged by me, will witness. And, that his Doctrine, is a just Imputation, against your Church, is clear, by this; That Pope Gregory the thirteenth, approved, and ratified his Doctrine, as (Sanctam, & inconcussam) holy, and stable. And, besides him, Gregorius de Valentia, a lesuit, Tom. 3. Disput. 5. Quaest 13. de reo. punct. 2. calleth AEQVIVOCATION, (Prudentem Defensionem) a wise Defence. The forenamed Navarrus, in d cap. humanae aures 22. Quaest 5. Pag. 348. recordeth, and highly praiseth an Aequivocation used by saint FRANCIS: who, being asked, by the sergeants, pursuing after a Murder, If such a Murderer had passed that way? did put his Hands, in his Gown Slieves, and answered, That he had not passed that way. Understanding, with himself, contrary to common perception, that he had not passed thorough his Slieves. And, the said Navarrus, addeth, even there, (Hanc Doctrinam de Aequivocationibus, fundari in illo insigni facto magni illius Patriarchae FRANCISCI:) that this Doctrine of Equivocations, is founded, upon that noble Fact, of that Great PATRIARCH, saint FRANCIS.  Philadelphus. 
Besides that common dislike, which almost all the other Roman Clergy have of Jesuits, I think, that the Cordeliers have here a proper Quarrel, and a most competent Plea, and Action, against them: who thus take unto themselves, wrongfully, the Craft of AEQVIVOCATION; which, being founded on the noble Act of saint FRANCIS, should, with all reason, have remained the Property of his Family: as, accordingly, they were called, once, commonly, LYING FRIARS: till, now, the Jesuits have so far encroached upon this their Right, as that, how far soever the Friars be still set to maintain their Title, yet the Jesuits do far exceed them, in all the cunning kinds of Aequivocation.  Eubulus. 
It is an unlucklie Debate, wherein the Victor's 
XV.  greatest Honour is, that, there-by, he proveth to be the more near sib unto Satan. But, to prosecute my Matter; The same Navarrus teacheth, that a person accused before a judge, who proceedeth not (juridice) lawfully, is not holden to confess the Truth: but, may use AEQVIVOCATION, mentally reserving within himself, some other thing, than his words do sound: yea, either in Answer, or Oath, to his judge, or Superior, that he may use a Bout-gate of Speech, (Amphibologia) whether through a divers signification of the word, or through the divers intention of the asker, and of him that maketh answer, and although it be false, according to the meaning of the asker: in cap. Ne quis. can. 22. quaest. 2. The same Navarrus, instructeth a Witness, to depone, that he knoweth nothing; reserving this within himself, no thing that he is holden to tell. And, he giveth the same instruction, to Pleaders, who are required to give their Oaths, de calumnia, or, of Verity, Pag. 151. Toletus, a jesuit, and a Cardinal, teacheth these same healthsome Lessons, Instruct. sacerd. lib. 4. cap. 21. jacobus Sylvanus, aliâs, Keller, jesuit, teacheth the same, Philipp. contr. Anonymum, etc. pag. 5. Besides all these, (Eriphilus) do they not teach men to be Liars, who affirm, that no Oath given to an Haereticke, or Infidel, is to be keeped? And, yet, this was both enacted, and practised, in the Council of Constance. jacobus Simancha, Episcopus Pacensis, de Catholic▪ institut▪ cap. 46, al-so avoucheth it. Conradus Brunus, de Haereticis, lib. 3. cap. 15, determineth, that no Pactions, Conventions, Laws, Confirmations, (rescripta) where-by Haeretickes obtain Peace, and Security, aught to be keeped, or counted of any force, or effect. Now, if wilful, and even purposed Perjury, may be counted Piety; and if such impudent instructions of disguysing Truth, you esteem a prudent Simulation, (Eriphilus) I think him pitifully imprudent, who hath any dealing with you.  Philomathes. 
I beseech you, (Eubulus) no more of this. For my part, I never liked of that Doctrine of Aequivocation: And, I think, verily, that the Church hath been evil beholden to those Men, whatsoever they were, who have brought that Blot upon the Catholic Faith.  Eubulus. 
Then, (Philomathes) of all others, the Church is 
XVI.  worst beholden to the Pope, who hath approved, and confirmed, and yet still ●…hamelessie maintaineth, that disgraceful Doctrine. And you, who see the Evil, are yet worse, than wo●…st of all, beholden to yourselves; who, in so plainly, a perceived Prevarication, yet suffer yourselves to be so sensleslie, and miserable, miscarried. But, how-so-ever I be, in this purpose, more plain than pleasant unto you: and that, even therefore, I could be content to speak no more of it, who am loath to grieve you in any thing; yet, because I promised it to Eriphilus, and he conceived, that I could not possibly clear such (as he called it) a Calumny, I must essay, to acquit myself, in proving also of your Romanistes, the other Point, and Note of their spiritual K●…nred, propounded by me, of Devilish Dealing: namely, that they are Murderers, and teach men so, as well as Liars, and, thus, are Satan's upright Children. Cardinal Baronius, in his Epistle against the Venetians, speaketh thus; The Ministry of Peter, (blessed Father) is twofold, To feed, and to kill; according to that, [Feed my Sheep] and according to that [Kill, and eat.] For, when the Pope hath to deal with refractory, and averse parties, (as are the Venetians) than Peter is bidden, Kill, and slay, and pack them up in his Belly. Is not this, I pray you, reverently, and rightly used Scripture? The same Baronius, in his Paraenesis to the Venetians, Pag. 9 It resteth, O Father, (the Pope) that you draw against Malefactors the Sword of Peter; whom to this end, CHRIST apppointed over Kingdoms, and Nations. Their King-killing Doctrine is too well known, and too tragicallie, what attempted, what archieved by them. johan. Mariana, jesuit, de Rege, lib. 1. cap. 6. affirmeth, That Subjects, willing to do so, may depose the King from his Princely state: and, that from all memory, it hath been esteemed a praiseworthy thing, who-so-ever attempted to oppress Tyrants. And, Pag. 60. If no means be of obtaining a public Convention, than who (favouring the common Wishes) shall attempt to kill a King, or Prince, I will not esteem that he hath done wrong. For, their advowed Impudency, in this pernicious Opinion, let any Man read the Iesuit's Book, De Henrici tertii abdicatione, which was put forth at Lions, Anno, 1591.: in the preface whereof, are these words; That seeing this is one, and the same common Cause, of that other Henry, a wicked Tyrant, al-so, etc. therefore, it is, that since we have spoken of the just abdication of the first, we desire, that we may appear so to have spoken (de hoc quoque excludendo, immo conterendo & perdendo) of excluding; yea, downe-beating, and destroying of this other, al-so. Mariana, de Rege, pag. 59 for King-killing, allegeth the Exemple of E●…ud: as if common and ordinary actions, could be warranded by extraordinary, which ought not to be drawn in example. And the same is brought, al-so, in defence of the jesuits, Tom. 6. memor. lig. pag. 281: and, together with it, divers Roman Doctors, are alleged, al-so, to this same purpose, as Cajetan. Dominicus Soto. Thomas Aquin. Sylvester Fumus. But, that you may yet see portentous, both Impudency, and Impiety, johannes Mariana, jesuit, De Rege, lib. 1. cap. 7. pag 65. & 67. hath these words; Quid interest ferro an vene●…o per●…as? etc. that is, What mattereth it, whether thou kill with Knife, or with Poison? That which is done by Poison, is done with less danger, and more hope of impunity. Upon my Warrant, thou mayest use Poison: but, with this provision, that be who is killed there-by, be not compelled, himself to drink the Poison, where-by he may perish: but that it be outwardly applied, by some other, without using any aid of him, who is killed there-by. Seeing, especially, that so great is the strength of Poison, that either the Chair, or Apparel, stroaked therewith, may have force to kill. And, in the end of that same Chapter, pag. 68 he concludeth, That it is lawful, by all means, to compass one's death; so being, that neither wittingly, nor unwittingly, he be made his own Executioner.  
And, if it may neither offend Philadelphus, (for some far carnal conjunction he had with him) nor you, (Eriphilus) who accounteth him an holy Martyr, I might add to the former, a familiar, and late Proof, of what Spirit those Men are, in that braynesicke Traitor, who being executed this other year, for partly practised, and phreneticallie professed Treason: yet, soon after, forsooth, was canonised, and, by you, (Eriphilus) esteemed a Martyr. But it falleth you foul, that you can never find one to fill up that Roll, but Men, both accused, and clearly convinced, of Theft, or Treason.  Philadelphus. 
For any Interest I had in that Man, I may, warrandablie, say, that, whatsoever he be, of HIS majesty's Liedges, who either thinketh so of him, or speaketh of him, as a Martyr, he meriteth, most justly, to be canonised, in the Catalogue of errand Traitors; and, to receive the Recompense of such. But, now, (Eriphilus) hath not Eubulus, think you, sufficiently, cleared the Truth, of that which you called a Calumny? And, are these, forsooth, the abstruse Mysteries, of your jesuits Divinity? And, how jumplie, are they the Followers of JESUS; who, not only, are open, and audacious Encowragers to Murder; but, also, so cunning Informers, of all the divers Manners, of mischievous working; and, are so well practised, in all the operative Powers, and application of Poison; that, they may be most apt APOTHECARIES, for Pluto? And, it is goodly to see, how, in the open practice, of monstrous Impiety, yet they would make Asses believe, that, at least, they kill conscientiouslie. For, they are so squimmish, forsooth, as, in any Case, they will not have a Man made his own Executioner. And, this is just such an Holiness, as had the Priests, and Pharisees; who, whiles they were, with all Falsehood, Cruelty, and bloody, and unbridled Rage, murdering the LORD JESUS, yet they would neither pollute their Sanctity, 
john. 1●…. 2●…. Matth. 27. 6.  by entering into the Common HALL., nor receive the price of Blood into their TREASURY. Thus, Hypocrites, even in the open Practice, of most gross, and detestable sins, yet bear the, justly benumbed, world in hand; that, because they strain gnats, they can not, but, in a good Conscience, swallow Camels.  
But, what a monstrous excecation, of Men, is this; that so prodigious Impiety findeth, amongst Professors of CHRISTIANITY; not only Patrociny, but, also, Admiration? Whereas, any Heathen Man, of settled Senses, would skunner, at the very mention, of such monstrous dealing: where-by, all Bands of Commerce, amongst Men, which either DIVINITY, HUMANITY, or NATURE, by any kind of Law, have established; are, impiously, unhumanlie, and unnaturally, broken.  
When GOD will not be defended, with a Lie; neither, will have us to do any evil, that good may ensue 
job, 1 ●… Rom. 3.  thereof; shall a bare pretence of Zeal, and intention of a good end, make more than Cyclopicke feritie, and devilish Deceit, to become good Religion? What if those honest-hearted Heathen, whom the Record of Story, extolleth so much for TRVETH, JUSTICE, TEMPERANCE, FORTITUDE, and others, MORAL VERTVES, (who yet knew not the true GOD, nor the sole Way of LIFE) were raised from the Death, and did see, and hear, what Men, called CHRISTIANS, and acclayming the Title of KNOWLEDGE, and HOLINESS, from all others, do not only practice, but profess, also; would they not be persuaded, that all the Devils of Hell, had come forth, under Ecclesiastic Names, and Habits, to destroy the World?  Philomathes. 
Let me entreat you, (good Philadelphus) to insist no more in this Subject: otherways, you will turn Eriphilus Choler, into a burning Ague.  Philadelphus. 
I will, at your request, forbear it: yet so, as I must tell you this one word; That, I will rather choose, to be mine own Varlet, than either to have the Chair set unto me, or mine Apparel reached me, by any Page, which hath passed his Prenticeship, and, hath been initiated, in the Secrets of the Chamber of Meditations. And, for Eriphilus, I will presently refresh his Mind, with one Sonnet more; where-by to prevent his Ague, or, at least, to give him a mature Cooling, in the very beginning of his Fit.  

Doctrines of Devils, with their Dealing joined,  
Are Signs of Satan's Synagogue most sure.  
Wedlock forbidden, Abstinence enjoined,  
From what the LORD proclaimeth to be pure,  
His Doctrines are: So is it not obscure,  
Whom GOD designeth, to be Devilish Doctors.  
His works are Lies, and Killing to procure:  
And, such men are his proper Sons, and Proctors.  
Your works, then, well be wray your Generation:  
Knyves, Powder, Poison, and Aequivocation.   Philomathes. 
Your Syrup (Philadelphus) is little less unpleasant, than your Potion: so, as Eriphilus hath to provide himself, otherways, of Patience. But, leaving this, I will turn me again, to Eubulus, who gave the Wound, which you, well satyricklie have rankled. You remember, (Eubulus) that you compryzed our Man's whole Discourse, of HAERETICKES, in this main Syllogism: To whom the Notes of HAERETICKES, do properly conveane; and, in whom are found manifold Defects, which can not befall the true Church; they must, of necessity, be baereticall. But, to the Protestant Churches, the Notes of HAERETICKES, do properly conveane; and, in them are found manifold Defects, which can not befall the true Church. Therefore, the Protestant Churches, are haereticall. The Proposition, of this Argument, you admitted. To the first part, of the Assumption, (as touching the Notes of Haeretickes) you have so answered; that, labouring to clear yourselves, you have laid over, well sadly, that Imputation upon our Church. Now, then, albeit we have, the longer, but the less Esperance of prevailing; yet, seeing this other point (concerning the Defects found in you, or affirmed of you) resteth now, only, of all our Man's poesy, to be spoken of; I would hear your Answers, also, unto his Interrogatours there-upon.  Eubulus. 
Of this, (Philomathes) I will acquit myself, 
XVII.  with small ado; for, that, almost, all the Defects objected unto us, are, upon your Poet's praesumed Opinion, That we want those Marks, whereof hath been spoken: So, as, any sensible Man, in that which we have all-readie said, shall find all his subsequent Questions, sufficiently answered. Besides that, elsewhere, I have answered them, at such length, as my Discourse, here, may be the shorter, and you yet, abundantly, satisfied; if not with that which I now say, yet, with easy pains, to read mine other TREATISES. Now, then, read forth, in order, your Man's Questions.  Philomathes. 
I will both gladly hear, what you shall now say, and will not weary, al-so, to read what elsewhere you have written. These, now, are the Questions.  

You say, your Faith did appear,  
For the space of six hundreth Year: 
When th●… wicked rise, hide themsel but when th●… perish, the Ri●… teous increas●… Prov. ●…. ●…   
But tell me, if thou can,  
When Papistry first began?  
Where were the Servants of the LORD,  
That none of them durst speak a word,  
To defend the known Truth?  
**************  
Did saint Peter's Faith fail?  
Did the Gates of Hell prevail?  
Did the Salt lose its savour?  
Was the Bride out of favour?  
Was the Pillar overthrown,  
By which all Truth was to be known?  
By this thou wouldst prove plain,  
All CHRIST'S Promise to be vain.  
Sea, Heavens, and Earth, shall pass indeed,  
But of this Word no jot, we read.  
Where have you been so long a time?  
To whom did your Light shine?  

† Caput nostrum est in coelo: sed n●… putes quod sit separatum caput a corpore. Discretum est enim loci●…. sed junctum ●…ffectious. Angnstm. in Psal. 91. Chrysost. homil. 35. in Matth. cap. 20. Who-so-ever he be, that affecteth Primacy in Earth, shall find confusion in Heaven: neither shall he, come in the count of CHRIST'S Servantes, who maketh business about Primacy.  Where did your principal Pastor sit?  
Who kept your Keys? who fed your Sheep?  
Show me some Church, that you have built.  
I can show many, that you have spilt.  
Were all damned eternally,  
Who were not of your Company?  
How might a Man have found you out,  
To have trial in matters of doubt;  
When no such Company did appear,  
For so many hundreth Year?  
Till LUTHER, a lying Friar,  
On whom the Devil ●…ad desire,  
Broke his Vow, and married a Nun:  
And then your Heresy first begun.  
And favoured, in SAXONY,  
By a Duke, that loved Liberty.  
And in King EDWARD'S time, truly,  
It first infected our Country.  
For, a thousand years, you say,  
That Papistry did bear the sway:  
And during all that space,  
No Protestant did show his Face.  
Who kept the holy Scripture then,  
From the hands of wicked men?  
Who had Authority, to ordain,  
Or make Priests, or Bishops, again?  
For he that entereth without order,  
As a Thief, doth kill, and murder.  
He is a Wolf, and not a Priest,  
And Enemy to our Saviour CHRIST.   

And, one thing doth make me muse,  
That no Priest you did refuse,  
Ordained by the Church of Rome,  
But he was excepted soon:  
If he would say your Service,  
He should have a Benefice:  
Without any farther Order,  
And accounted for the Better.  
How may she make a lawful Priest,  
If she be not the Church of CHRIST?  
Answer this, if that thou can,  
And I will be a Protestan.  
But, while your Answer you device,  
I counsel all Men, that be wise,  
To hold the Faith maintained here,  
The space of a thousand Year:  
Brought to us Englishmen,  
By our Apostle, Saint Austin:  
Who from Rome was hither sent,  
When EDWARD was King of KENT:  
Who learned his Faith of Gregory ●…  
Which Faith was kept successively,  
By threescore Bishops, and three,  
From saint Peter's time, we see:  
Who learned his Faith of CHRIST JESUS,  
Who is the Son of GOD most true.  
To HIM be all Honour, and Praise,  
Who doth defend HIS Church always.   Eubulus. 
You may perceive (Philomathes) the truth of that 
XVIII.  which I said unto you; that all these yourman's questions, are coincident, with the cases of Continuance, & visibility, whereof we have spoken: except, that, in end, for giving us a deadly blow, in his conceit, he close all up, with the question of our Callings. And, to make clear to you, how your man multiplieth words, in vain, without knowledge, I reduce all his impertinent prattling, to this main Argument:  
If things, affirmed by you, of your Churches, can not consist with the Promise of CHRIST, made to His Church, and Her certain condition thereby: and, if you are forced, to acknowledge of the Church of Rome, that which can not be competent to any Company, but to CHRIST'S Church; then are your Churches Haereticall, and the Church of Rome, is the Church of CHRIST. But, the things affirmed by you, of your Churches, can not consist with the Promise of CHRIST, made to His Church, and Her certain Condition there-by: and that which you grant of the Church of Rome, is only competent to CHRIST HIS Church. Therefore, your Churches, are Haereticall, and the Church of Rome, is the Church of CHRIST.  Philomathes. 
Verily, our Poet, if he were even here present, could allege no Prevarication on you, in the upright compryzing of the sum of his Discourse. And, if you shall answer to it, as clearly, and ingeniously, as you have ingeniously propounded it, undoubtedly the best of this Game will be yours.  Eubulus. 
The Proposition of his Argument, is true: but 
XIX.  his Assumption, is extremely false: whereof he laboureth, to fortify the first part, touching the Defects alleged on our Churches, thus:  
The Promise of CHRIST, to His Church, is, That Peter's faith shall never fail: that, The Gates of Hell shall not prevail against her: that, The Salt shall not lose its savour: that, The Bride shall not be out of favour: that, The Church shall remain the stable Pillar of Truth, etc. and, According to this Promise, the certain Condition of the Church, is, That She always continueth, and is, visible. But, by these things, which you affirm, of your Churches, Peter's Faith should have failed: The Gates of Hell should have prevailed: the Salt should have lost its savour: the Spouse should have been out of favour: the Pillar should have been overthrown: and, the Church of CHRIST, should not have continued, and continued visible. Therefore, things affirmed by you, can not consist with the promise of CHRIST, made to His Church, and her Condition, accordingly: and, consequently, you are Haeretickes.  
Thus, having, as he thinketh, set us aside, from any Interest in the Title of CHRIST'S Church: next, upon a ground, confessed by us, but miserable mistaken by him, he buildeth a Conclusion, for the second part of his main Assumption, which concerneth the Church of Rome, thus:  
To give lawful Ordination to Pastors, is competent only to the Church of CHRIST. But, you, Protestants, acknowledge, That the Ordination, given by the Church of Rome, was lawful Ordination. Therefore, the Church of Rome, must be the Church of CHRIST.  
Do you not, now, perceive (Philomathes) whither your Man's meaning tendeth, by all this his great Squadron of Interrogatours: with the multitude whereof, he would, in a Musical Mood, over-whelme us?  Philomathes. 
I now perceive it well anough: you have reduced all, to so clear and compendious a form. And, granting the Major of his main Argument, you denied his Minor. And, first, that part thereof, which, upon the Defects, laid against you, he assumed of your Churches. For Probation whereof, I must confess, that nothing is brought, by him, in his second Syllogism, but the all-readie disputed points, of Continuance, and visibility. whereof you have said ●…o much, as we can not, goodly, require any more of you. So, that, except it please you to answer unto his last, and, appearinglie, insoluble Objection, against you, grounded on your own Grant, of lawful Ordination by the Church of Rome, I think, for me, there resteth no other point undiscussed of all our matter.  Eubulus. 
Of his Objection, of lawful Calling, by the 
XX.  Church of Rome, and all that he can possibly build thereon, I shall, GOD, willing, either pay him, or prove him al-readie paid, more than abundantly. And, albeit I have before, al-so, spoken of the other points; yet, for more clearing, whether he better proveth, or I deny his main Assumption, let us take a short view of his Interrogatours.  Philomathes. 
Then, say to them, and we will hear gladly. Thus they are.  

You say, your Faith did appear,  
For the first six hundreth year:  
But tell me, if thou can  
When Papistry first began?   Eubulus. 
We affirm, that our Faith, which is the only 
XXI.  true Faith, hath appeared, not six hundreth, only, but, now, almost, sixteen hundreth years; though not in alike evidence, at all times, or to all people: and, though not always, perceived, even of them, to whom it appeared. For, as the Smoke of the bottomless Pit, by degrees prevailed; so, was true Light, the less, and of the 
Revel. 9  lesser number, perceived, And, yet, even in the height of that Evil, (when a Throne was erected to Satan, in the 
Thess. 2. and Revel. 11.  Temple of GOD, and Antichrist obtained, not only the Court of the Temple, but, al-so, all the holy City) there were Candlesticks, still, in the Temple, and good numbers of Sealed Ones, following the Lamb, on Mount 
●…evel. 14. and 7. and 9 4.  Zion, while all the miscarried Earth, followed the Beast: although none could hear, or learn, their Song, but themselves; who, in that common Apostasy, were bought from the Earth, to be the true Citizens of Heaven, albeit in the Earth, yet not of it.  
Now, what time Popery did first begin, what Man is he, that needeth to make any question, who readeth Paul, 
Thess. 2. 7.  affirming plainly, that the Mystery of Iniquity, was even then begun to work: or, who readeth john, avouching that Antichrist 
1. john, 4. 3.  was even then in the World? That the first beginnings, and subtle Insinuation, were not, commonly, marked, it was the LORD His wise Dispensation, and Satan's deep Deceit: for, otherways, it had been no Mystery. Doth not the LORD Himself, teach us, in Parable, That 
Matth. 13. 2●…  the envious one, did sow his Tares, even with the good Seed, in the LORD His own Field; and, that, so covertly, and subtly, while the Servants were sleeping; that, allbeeit mixed with the good Seed, and waxing in the midst thereof; yet, it is not espied, until, by different Stalk, Flower, and Ear, it bewray whose Hand did scatter it: so, as the very Servants, albeit, by time, they see it growing, and waxing, and discern it to be adulterous; yet, they can not tell how, by whom, nor what time, it was sown? And, shall Tares, I pray you, be counted good Wheat, except the moment, and first Sower thereof, be shown? Your Man doteth, and deceiveth, in reasoning, sophistically, from Popery, in the first Seed, to Popery begotten: and, even from Popery begotten, in the first subtle Insinuation, and cunninglie-covered beginnings, to Popery borne, and brought forth: and, from Popery, even brought forth, but yet still masked, under fair and plausible Pretences, and swedled up, in the Clouts of GOD His Children; to Popery, at length, kithing, openly, Teeth, Horns, and Claws: so, bewraying, evidently, whose Brood it was; allbeeit long, and fraudfully fostered, in the midst of GOD His own House. Satan was, long, in all Subtlety, and deep Deceit, a-bringing out of that Monster, as the last, and greatest Master-stich, of all his Policy, and Power: and, much, and dark time, behoved to be allotted, to the begetting of that great Hercules, of the infernal jupiter. First, in the Seed: Next, in the Egg: whence Satan, long, and sedulouslie, sitting there-on, at length, hatched out a Serpent: which became, by time, a fiery flying Dragon. For, the Beast arose out of the Earth, 
Revel. 13.  slowly, and insensibly: not as that Tages, repent doctus in ipso nascendi Articulo. You may read, if you list, (Philomathes) a more large Answer, to this same vain Question, sent to myself, by one of your side, in my Discovery of his Dotage there-in.  Philomathes. 
I will, GOD willing, read it. But, what say you to this?  

Where were the Servantes of the LORD,  
That none of them durst speak a word,  
To defend the known Truth? etc.   Eubulus. 
They were even where Satan's Throne was: 
XXII.  and, allbeeit tollerating spiritual Fornication, (for which 
Revel. 2. 13.  the LORD had something against them) yet, keeping the NAME of GOD, themselves, and, informing others, in the true knowledge thereof; they were in the Temple, while Antichrist trod down the Court thereof, 
●…evel. 11. 3.  and the holy City: and, powerfully, dispensing, there-in, both Light, and Grace, to true Christians; and, having Vengeance in readiness, against their Enemies; they were in the Wilderness, both fed, and feeding others. They 
Revel. 12. 6. 14. ●…evel. 14. 1.  were on Mount Zion, with the Lamb, both worshipping, purely, themselves, and leading others there-in; though none either heard, or learned, their Song, but the sealed Virgins, while the Beast miscarried all the Earth, to commit spiritual Fornication.  
Thus, they were, always, and, both spoke the Truth, and, for the Truth. But, the blind, and stupefied Sectatours of the Beast, neither saw, nor heard them. For, how soon the Beast of the bottomless Pit perceived them: then was The Patience of the saints: and, then, Blessed were 
●…evel. 13. 10. ●…nd 14. 12. ●…evel. 11. 8.  the Dead, which died in the LORD: then lay they unburied, in the Streets of that great City, which, spiritually, is called Sodom, and Egypt: and, than the Whore was drunken, 
●…evel. 17. 6. ●…evel. 17. 3.  with the Blood of saints; and, the Beast became, wholly, of the Dragon's Colour.  
Now, where, upon this, That no opposition was made by them, your Man concludeth, That, therefore, none at all were; I pray you, (Philomathes) what kind of Logic do you account it? Because, in Spain, and Italy, no open opposition is made to Popery; are there, therefore, no Protestant, either Pastors, or Professors, in those parts? The future Ages, might, perhaps, be induced to think so; because that so the Story of the Time may carry; nothing being recorded, but what, in common, obtaineth in the Time. But, we, who now live, would laugh him to heading, as an impudent, or senseless Liar, who would but deny, that, even in Rome, are hundreths, who hold the Pope, to be Antichrist. And, how great encowragement soever, our too great Lenity, giveth them of kithing; yet, would they be contented, that their numbers, amongst us, were esteemed, but according to their open and advowed opposition? When the golden Calf, was set up, 
Exod. 3●….  in the Wilderness, and that, by so common an Apostasy, as that Aaron was carried away with the violent Stream of that Evil, it might appear, that none had been, there, for the LORD, or free of that common Guiltiness: and, 
Exod. 32. 26.  yet thousands did kith in the convenient time of challenge. Were there none true, either Prophets, or Professors, 
1 Kings, 19 24. 1 Kings, 18. 13. 1 Kings. 1●…. 1●….  in Israel, the years of Elias, lurking? And, yet, who spoke publicly for the Truth? Did not even Elias think, that all were gone, when yet there were an hundreth Prophets, in one Cave, and seven thousand true Professors, in one, and the same Kingdom? Shall Toleration, specially in perilous times, conclude approbation, of what is tolerated, in all the Tolleraters thereof? Doth not Augustine acknowledge, in his time, (wherein the Mystery of Iniquity, was not so far advanced, but that Truth still obtained some place, in common) that, for regard of the CHURCH'S peace, they were compelled to tolerate many things, which, otherways, they utterly misliked? Attour, in your Man's Objection, is another ridiculous Fallacy; by confounding the divers and distinct times, and, accordingly, the divers and distinct degrees of growth, of that Apostasy, in the course of time: and, not distinguishing, accordingly, the divers sorts and degrees of Opponers, and of opposition thereunto. No Age, since the Apostolic times, wanted its own opposition, and Opponers, according to the degree of Evil, although they came not to that last, and highest degree, to which the open discovery of the Evil, in the top of all importable, and uncurable Impiety, did force Men.  
Love, is ever loath to cast off, till all hope be passed. And, sober Men, sometimes, in a laudable judgement; sometimes, again, in weakness, will even choose, often, in a prevailing Iniquity, rather to lurk, and keep themselves clean; than, with perilous Contestation, either to disturb the CHURCH'S Peace, or object themselves, to desperate Dangers. Which, notwithstanding, when they perceive, that (without plain peril of all Christianity, and imputation to themselves, of betraying the Gospel) Peace can no more be keeped; will then, rather contest, with all hazard, than tolerate a clearlie-discovered, and a desperatelie-pernicious Mischief. Shall a Thief, be counted no Thief, but from the time of his open Endytement? Or, shall the first beginnings, of injurious Usurpation, on the one part; and, an undoubted, and clear Right, on the other; be reckoned only from the first public points of Litiscontestation? A Man, disposed to Peace, will long bear, and, patiently, expect Reparation of Wrongs; and, even comport, with many injurious Encroachmentes: upon hope, that Reason, and gentle Admonition, will bring the Party to do him measure. Who, notwithstanding, at last, perceiving his Adversaries waywardness, and daily progress in wrong doing; will, then, intend plain Action against him, for his Right. Now, shall the usurping, and injurious Party, have, in this, any reason, where-by either to justify himself, or eschew Reparation of all his bygone Wrongs, and usurpation; because they were never, till then, challenged, in that manner, and degree? You may see more, hereof, in my TREATISE, 
Defence of Ca●…. Sect. 19 Rev. 1●…. and 2●….  of our CALLINGS, and COMMENTARY on the REVELATION.  Philomathes. 
Well: let us go on.  
Did saint Peter's Faith fail?  Eubulus. 
No: but, if it had, what should have followed 
XXIII.  there-upon unto the Church, more than upon the fall of judas? What a ridiculous Question is this? as, if, on the standing, or falling, of any one Man, or, whatsoever number of Men, did hang the fall, or stability, of the Church: which is builded, neither on Man, nor Men; but, on that immovable Rock, which can not fall.  
Yet, your Bellarmine confesseth, That, though the Pope should fall away from Truth, yet, the Church should not, therefore, fail.  Philomathes. 
You, who are so quick a Carper of Equivocations, fall, now, to the same Play, which you reprove so often in our Poet. For, by Peter's Faith, he doth not mean that Spiritual Virtue, wherewith Peter was endued, there-by apprehending CHRIST to Salvation, (as you would, perhaps, describe it:) but that Doctrine of Faith, which Peter professed, and taught.  Eubulus. 
Then, (Philomathes) the playing with Equivocations, 
XXIV.  shallbe still your Poet's part: for the Lord prayed, for the stability of Peter's particular faith, whereof Satan sought to sift him; &, which, remaining steadfast, was his Victory, in that his Temptation, as I have before signified. And if your Man, will have it permitted unto him, by Poetical Licence, against the LORD'S mind, to wrest Scripture, and to entitle, thus, the Doctrine of Faith: yet, why is it called Peter's faith, more than am's, or John's? And, why would not your Poet rather (according to Scripture speech) call it the Faith of our LORD JESUS CHRIST? But, in whatsoever sense, giving him, that the Fall, or Standing of the Church, had depended, wholly, on the failing, or stability, of Peter's Faith; could that Faith, be no otherways preserved, but in the Church of Rome? And, shall the fall of Rome, conclude, that Peter's Faith, and, consequently, CHRIST'S Church, is fallen? To make this Conclusion infallible; your Man must bring a better Argument, than a vain vaunt, of a bare personal Succession: while, in the time, they are fallen away from Peter's Faith, to the faith of Simon Magus.  Philomathes. 
Did the Gates of Hell prevail?  Eubulus. 
No: but they did so far assail, and with such 
XXV.  success (in GOD His just judgement, and wise permisssion) as Satan obtained a Throne, even in the Temple of GOD.  Philomathes. 
Did the Salt lose its Savour?  Eubulus. 
It did so far lose its Savour, in common; and, 
XXVI.  such as should have been the Salt of the Earth, became so unsavoury, that they could serve for nothing, but to be 
Revel. 11. 2.  cast out, and trodden under foot: (Cast out the Court, which is without the Temple, and meet it not, etc.) yet ever still the LORD had Ministers, so seasoned, with the Spirit of Light, and Grace, as they were, always, Candlesticks, and Olives, to the Temple: albeit, long, few, and labouring in many Tears; and, at length, cruelly, murdered, by that unsavoury, and unsanctified Fellowship.  Philomathes. 
Was the Bride out of favour?  Eubulus. 
Never: albeit, often-tymes, the Bridegroom 
XXVII.  hath had somewhat against her: while, dwelling where 
Revel. 2. 4. 14. 20. and 3. 1. 15.  Satan's Throne was, and keeping even there, the Name of Her LORD; yet, in weakness, she tolerated spiritual Fornication. She was never out of favour: yet she hath been often afflicted, and tossed with tempest, having no 
〈◊〉. 54. 11.  〈◊〉: but, beaten, even of the Watchmen: and glad to 
Cant. 5. ●….  lurk, and to be fed in the Wilderness: while the masked 
Revel. 12. 1●…  Whore, with subtle deceit, made all the Earth to drink 
Revel. 27.  the Cup of her Abominations.  Philomathes. 
Was the Pillar overthrown?  Eubulus. 
No: but stood still stable, upon Mount ZION, 
XXVIII.  with the Lamb; while all the Earth was, in GOD HIS 
Revel. 14. 1. Revel. 13. 3. 8. 1●….  justice, miscarried, after the Beast; receiving his Name, Number, or Character. And, so, (Philomathes)  
CHRIST'S Promise proveth true and plain, And your Man's Ballad is but vain.  Philomathes. 
Where have you been so long a time?  Eubulus. 
Even where Satan's Throne was: and, even 
XXIX.  there, keeping the Name of JESUS, against the terror 
Revel. 2. 13.  of Bloodshed.  Philomathes. 
To whom did your Light shine?  Eubulus. 
To the hundreth, forty, and four thousand 
XXX.  sealed Virgins, Followers of the Lamb, by the Light shining 
Revel. 14. 1.  before them, and seen of them, (while all the Earth, depryved of Eyes, to see, wondered, blyndlinges, after the 
Revel. 11.  Beast:) who, therefore, rested not in the common pollution of the holy City, and Court of the Temple: but, stepped inwardly, to the Temple, where were, always, Candlesticks, and Olives.  Philomathes. 
Where did your principal Pastor sit?  Eubulus. 
At the Right Hand of the FATHER, yet filling 
XXXI.  all. For, in any other, this Title were a sacrilegious Usurpation of CHRIST His Honour.  Philomathes. 
Who kept your Keys? who fed your Sheep?  Eubulus. 
Even those, who (when all, in common, had lost 
XXXII.  the Key of Knowledge; and, neither entered themselves, 
Lake. 11. 5●…. Matth. 23. ●…3.  nor suffered others, to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven) were still the true Lights, and Olives, of the Temple: and, who, at length, by the true Key, have so opened up, and discovered Antichrist his Deceit, unto the long-blynded World, as, the Beast is going, sensibly, to Destruction; though the characterized Company, should never so much gnaw their Tongues, for Sorrow.  
If the scribes, and Pharisees, to whom CHRIST objected, the loss of the Key of Knowledge, and, shutting of the Kingdom of Heaven, had laid over, against Him, this your Man's Objection; and argued, there-upon, the failing of GOD His Church; and, consequently, of His many and great Promises: would He nor, soon, and easily, have answered, That, how-so-ever they had so fallen away, in common; yet GOD still had true, both scribes, and Israelites, even in the Bowels of that, commonly, corrupted Body?  Philomathes. 
Show some Church that you have built, etc.  Eubulus. 
A great many, that you have spilt. To your 
XXXIII.  Man, (Philomathes) Destroying is Building, and Building is Destroying. Upon, and by that Doctrine, whereupon we build, and which we teach, hath the true Church been builded, and instructed always: as, by the right Rule of Examination, we have, a thousand times, evinced: and, he, who gathereth not with us, but scattereth.  Philomathes. 

Were all damned eternally,  
Who were not of your Company?   Eriphilus. 
Seeing, that without the Church of CHRIST, there can be no Salvation: and, that you do take to yourselves, the Title of the CHURCH, and deny the same unto the Church of Rome: I would gladly hear, (Eubulus) what you can answer, to this Question: and, how you can, so unwind yourself thereof, as not to fall, in some one of these Absurdities: namely, That either all our Fathers, many hundreth years ago, were damned eternally; and, that, now, also, all Men, professing Popery, do perish: or, you must acknowledge, the Church of Rome, to have been, and, yet, still to be, the Church of CHRIST: in which case, your Churches must be haereticall.  Eubulus. 
I will answer directly, and, even, categoricallie, 
XXXIV.  to your Man's Question: and, even, so, clearly, free ourselves, of all your Absurdities. But, I must, first, protest, for your patience, (Eriphilus) that you will not start at my first words; which, may, perhaps, appear strange, unto you: until I have cleared them; and, therewith, have unfolded the Deceit of your Man's Question.  
I answer, then, and affirm, plainly, That all were damned eternally, who were not of our Company. For, there is but one Way, one Verity, and one Life. And, yet, it shall neither follow, hereupon, that, all, our Fathers, in Ages past, were damned: or, that, all, presently called Papists, and professing so, do perish. For, we are not so praesumptuouslie audacious Determiners; or, so uncharitable judgers of other Men, as your Men are of us; secluding, absolutely, all who die in our Communion, from Everlasting Life. But, it is well, that, to them, all judgement is not committed. Neither, yet, hereupon, shall either the Church of Rome, be made the Church of CHRIST; or, our Churches, to be haereticall Companies.  Eriphilus. 
I will take to me patience, according to your Protestation, to attend the clearing of these so evill-consisting Assertions: allbeeit, I fear, that my patience, in this point, shall neither beget me EXPERIENCE, nor HOPE.  Eubulus. 
Who hardly conceive HOPE, may, happily, fall to 
XXXV.  ●…e ashamed: but, the aequivocation of this word [COMPANY] wherein lieth your Man's Cavl●…lation; and, according uhere-unto, you are also misc●…led in the word [CHURCH] ●…eeing cleared: that, whereof you despare, to find the Experience, or, con●…ine the Hope, shall be manifest, and certain, to any, who will perceive, and be persuaded.  
First, then, I say, That all Christian Churches, are one Church; and, all Christian Companies, are one Company: united, at least, in one common Profession, of the NAME of CHRIST, and in one Baptism, being all under one, and the same general Ensign: and, so, within one and the same Catholic Church, (as the same is absolutely, albeit not most properly, taken:) but, not all, truly, and properly, of it. For, within the Catholic CHURCH, are CHRIST, and Antichrist; PROTESTANTS, and Papists; Orthodox; and haereticall Christians. Now, again, in this one, and general Church, and Company, there be many divers Companies, (as in a great Army, are several and distinct Bands, discerned by their proper, and particular Colours, and Cognizanses) according as they are divided, each from other: and, that, either unnecessarily, by prideful, and uncharitable Renting, of turbulent Men: or, necessarily, for keeping the clean, and health some parts of the Body, from the dangerous Contagion of affected parts, in that same common Body.  
In a diseased natural Body, (Eriphilus) three distinct Considerations, offer themselves to be observed: First, the Body in itself. secondly, the Evil, or Disease in the Body. And, thirdly, the Body affected with the Evil, or Disease. The health some Body, or considered in its own natural state, is one thing. The Body affected, or diseased, is (in that consideration) another. And, yet, the Disease is the third. The Evil, or Disease, allbeeit it be in the Body, yet is it not of the Body: but, the affected, or diseased part, is of the Body: not, in that it is affected, or diseased; but, in that it communicateth, yet (allbeeit weakly) with the Life, Sense, and Motion of the common Body. Again, we must put a difference, betwixt parts diseased, which, 
●…vel. ●…. 2.  allbeeit heavily affected, and having parts ready to die, yet are not past Physic, but may be cured, and quickened, by the Purgation of the word, and Spirit; and, such as are quite dead, in the Evil, and are incurable, as now, no more partaking of the common Life, and Sense of the Body: as in an Hydropicke body, some parts will be free, by lively Vigour repelling the vicious Humour; some, not altogether free, but yet less affected: some, much affected, and ready to die; but, yet, in some measure, communicating with the common Life, Sense, and Motion of the Body: some, lastlie, in which the vicious Humour hath quite drowned, out of all Sense, and Motion.  
Now, to clear this, by Accommodation: I say, That the BODY, is the CATHOLIC CHURCH, in which are all sorts of Christians: the Evil in this Body, but not of it, is Heresy, Antichristi anisme, or papality. Now, as a much different, and distinct consideration, was put betwixt the Evil, considered in itself, and the parts of the Body, affected therewith: and, again, amongst affected parts, a great difference betwixt those, who yet retain life, and Motion, and are curable; and others, who are dead, or consumed by the Disease: So, (Eriphilus) you must not confound PAPISTS, and papality; anabaptists, and ANABAPTISME; BROWNISTES, and BROWNISME. GOD forbid, that we judge so hardly, as, because papality, ANABAPTISME, BROWNISME, etc. are damnable, that, therefore, all who are called, or profess themselves PAPISTS, anabaptists, BROWNISTES, are damned. Because, allbeeit affected, in some degrees, and even dangerouselie sick, of those Evils, yet they may have the life of the common Body; partaking, thus, with the common Head, and be curable, by the Purgation of GOD. How many PAPISTS, anabaptists, BROWNISTES, are there, who, not knowing the deepness of Satan's deceit, (wherewith some of their Seducers, and many al-so of their Companies, are infected deadly, and diverted from all true life) are, in simplicity of Heart, miscarried, with glistering and plausible pretences, of the Church of Zeal, of Purity, singular Holiness, and such like; having yet, and, allbeeit somewhat affected, holding the life of GOD, and true Foundation? And, so, in distinct considerations, are of one, and the same Company, with all good Christians, and true Professors: and, yet, are not of one, and the same Company. Because, albeit one, in the common Body, and some measure of the common Life, yet separated each from other: for keeping the clean parts free, not from the others parts, but from the Evil, wherewith they are affected; till GOD, by the Purgation of His Word, and Spirit cure them.  
When we dispute against the Church of Rome, and deny her the Name, or Title of CHRIST's Church; we mean the papality, not all Papists; Antichristianisme, not all, who, in simplicity of Heart, are miscarried after it, (which no more justly may be excluded, from the account of Christians, than those two hundreth Men, accounted Traitors, 
2. Sam. 15. 11.  who went with Absolom, from Jerusalem) those who have received the Character of the Beast, (against whom, only, in all the Revelation, is wrath, ever denounced) not all such, as have received, but his Name, or his Number: as, handling this 
Chapter 13.  same Question, in my COMMENTARY on that Book, I have, at more length, cleared. And, thus I hope, that, if you will, you may see, how it standeth true, that all were damned eternally, who were not of our Company: and; yet, not all who were, or are, called Papists, are damned. Neither maketh this the Church of Rome, to be the Church of CHRIST: because such Papists, as are saved, are not saved by the destroying, and consuming Gangrene, wherewith they are affected, and which fighteth against the life of GOD: but by the remnant of the life of the Body, so far, as yet, prevailing in them, that the evil hath not gotten force, to suffocate, or extinguish it. In which respect, they were, and are, of our Company: as, in some measure, joined to, and holding still, the same Head: albeit each from other separated, either by an unnecessary wound, of turbulent Men, or, by a needful disjunction: and (albeit not all in alike measure of strength, and health) enjoying the Common Life. For it is not diverse Nominations, whether foolishly taken, or, at apperite imposed, that disjoin the, so diversly named; either from CHRIST, or from the Communion of His Body, and Life. It is a gross Sophistication, in your Men, what is true of the Catholic Church, to conclude, that, properly, of any one part thereof: but, it is both gross and impudent, to conclude the Properties, and Privileges, of the Body, of the inherent and consuming Gangrene in the Body, but not of it.  Eriphilus. 
By this your Discourse, (Eubulus) you make it an indifferent thing, what either Company, or Religion a Man be of. And, if one may attain Salvation, being Papist, Protestant, Anabaptist, Brownist, or what you will, so he profess CHRIST; to what end make you so great a stir? And, why go you about, by all means, to have us converted unto you? Do you not see, that, while you would fain appear, to have Charity, you overthrow all Piety?  Eubulus. 
Because, (Eriphilus) in Cities, and Houses, infected 
XXXVI.  with Plague, or Leprosy, Men may live, as who either may escape the Contagion, or be cleansed, or cool out of it: is there, therefore, no regard to be had, what City, or House, a Man come into? Or, is all care, to keep the Clean, from the Fowl, superfluous? Or, is there no care to be had, of curing the Diseased, and cleansing away the Contagion? In such Companies, some, possibly, may live, and escape the Evil: but, the abode, is extreme dangerous, and Death more ready, than Life.  
Without the CATHOLIC CHURCH, it is most true, that there can be no Salvation, But, it were high presumption, for the most pure worshipping Company, in all that common Body, to confine, absolutely, all Salvation, within their particular Society: how-so-ever, Salvation, there, must be most assured, and less danger of Damnation. So, as, (Eriphilus) in this your Objection, is little, either Piety, or Charity, or common Sense.  Philomathes. 
Whether the Disease of the Body, be with us, or with you: whether it be papality, or Lutheranisme; I will not, now, more dispute, much less, determine. But, verily, (Eubulus) I can not, but much allow your Discourse, which is no less solid, and true, than it is quick, and subtle. And I commend, much more, your charitable judgement in this case, than our Men's hard determinations of you. And, you have, exceeding well cleared, that this charitable Opinion, can, nor should, diminish nothing, of that Care, which lieth on all Men, to search, and embrace Truth. But, let us come to the rest of our Interrogatours.  

How might a Man have found you out,  
To have trial in matters of doubt;  
When no such Company did appear,  
For so many hundreth Year?   Eubulus. 
To this Question, I have, al-readie, answered, 
XXXVII.  more than once: and, it is the same, which, more than thrice, your Man hath not been ashamed to demand. For, from that Question, [where were the servants of the LORD; that none of them durst speak a word▪] what have all his Interrogatours been, but a peevish repetition of one, and the same thing, in substance? Any truelie-lightened, and humbly, and sincerely seeking, might always have found us out, under the common Ensign. And, if, perhaps, Error had so far prevailed, in common, as he could find, or hear, nothing, in all the holy City, and Court of the Temple, but the Dragon's mouth; yet Candlesticks, and 
●…evel. ●…1.  Olives, were never wanting in the Temple. And, even when all the Earth, committed Fornication, following the 
Revel. 14.  Beast, yet Virgins would have found, on Mount Zion a Song, which chaste Hearts might hear, and learn. To your Man's Rhetoric, (where-by, here, in a Poëticall licence, he looseth his Tongue so liberally, upon, LUTHER) I disdain to answer: but, refer him to the Fishmarket, whereof his Aeloquence most smelleth. I come to examine his Logic. Because before LUTHER, and such others, as were in the same Age, and cause, with him: none did contest, so openly, or in so high a degree, against Antichrist; doth it follow, there-upon, that none, at all, were before him? Why, then, were JOHN HUSSE, and HIEROME of PRAGVE, an hundreth years, ere then, cruelly, and barbarously, burnt; against public Faith, and assurance, given them? Why were all the Bo●…emian Churches, so sore vexed? Because the two Witnesses, Revel. xi. after the Spirit of Life, had entered in them, stood more vigorously, and advowedlie, than before: and, because, by Divine Warrant, at that point of time, they were first bidden, Come up hither; their Enemies saw them, and were afraid. And, so, then, first, they were, publicly, separated, from Antichrist his Contagion; and his Kingdom beginneth to take an open fall, (where-by the Holy Ghost, painteth out, plainly, the time, and dealing, of LUTHER, and his Fellows, in their State, Course, and Condition:) will it conclude, therefore, that those Witnesses, were not till then? or, that they did not contest against Evils, before that time, albeit not in that degree, either of Strength, or Success? Had not the Beast, ere then, murdered them, even with applause of the World? Yea, and before any advowed Contestation with him, or Violence from him, were they not long prophesying, in the Temple; allbeeit lurking, and in Sackecloath?  
Because, in KING EDWARD'S days, the abolishing of Popery, and reparation of true Worship, were, first, by public Laws, established; will any Logic conclude, hereupon, That no Protestants were, before that? Wherhfore, then, were so many martyred, before the days of KING EDWARD? What did your Men mean, by the barbarous raising of JOHN WICKLEFE, and his Disciples Bones, some Ages before that?  
The Name of PROTESTANTS, (your Man would say) was never heard of, before LUTHER. But, I pray you, (Philomathes) were it good Logic, to conclude, That never a Christian was in the World, before a Church was raised in Antiochia; because, till then, that name was not 
Acts▪ 11. 26.  heard of? Will your Poet admit, that where Popery is not, by laws, established, there no Papists are at all? Popery, indeed, did bear sway, for the space of a thousand years; for, so long time, the holy Ghost putteth betwixt the Dragon's imprisonment, at which point of time, Antichrist 
Revel●…ion, 20.  had his first open degrees of usurpation, to his losing again: at which point, that Mischief was come to the top of all sacrilegious Impiety. But, it did not bear, all that time, alike sway; neither, at any time, universally, with every one, how-soever it did commonly, with all: but had much different, and slowly, and slielie comming-on, degrees, which your Poet confoundeth, most unskilfully: and, there-upon, no less chyldishlie, in different times, and cases, yet requireth one, and the same Manner; and, one, and the same Measure of Contestation. Which, in GOD'S wise Providence, was reserved to the challenging of the Beast, in the height of his impiety, for working of his fall. He was, first, a fraudulent spotted Pard; but, by 
Revel. 13. 2. Revel. 1●…. 3. Revel. 13. 1. Revel. 17. 3. Revel. 2. 14. Revel. 2. 20.  time, became of the Dragon's Colour. He, first, had on his head, the name of Blasphemy; but, by time, all his body was full of the names of Blasphemy. He, first, craftily, laid stumbling Blocks, as Balaam; but, by time, the Whore; horn up by him, like furious and bloody jezabel, did, openly, overthrow all true Worship, erect Baal, and drink the blood of saints. Finally, (Philomathes) this your men's Question, (where-by they so much stupefy the Simple) Where was the Church, so many hundreth years, & c? is, even, just, such a Question, as, if one, who had lain long diseased, convalescing, at length, should be asked, by one, who had never seen him, walking in perfect health; Where were you, before this time? To which foolish Demand, as he might, very well, answer, That he, both had been, before, and, were the same self Man, which the demander had seen before: although not in the same state, and condition.  
So, we affirm, That the CHURCH, is still, the same CHURCH, which was, all those hundrethes of years, wherein they would appear, to make Her a-missing: but, that She was long sick, by a long, slowly, and, at first, insensibly comming-on, Disease: which, at length, had become extreme dangerous, and deadly; but that, by the Cure of Her LORD, She hath convalesced of it.  
And, it were an extremely ridiculous Claim, If, in a Body, which had been over-gone, with a great Disease; and, yet, by the power of the Noble parts, retaining Integrity, had so far recovered, that even the Dregges, and force of the Sickness, were fallen into the Legs, and Feet: If, therefore, (I say) the swollen Legs, and Feet, should deny the rest of the Body, and take all Privilege thereof, to themselves; because, they, forsooth, kept still the Dregges of a long Disease.  
As the CHURCH, at first, even in the Apostolic times, and, some while after, retaining PURITY, and Spiritual Health, was the CHURCH: So, afterwards, contracting Sickness, in all the growing Degrees thereof; yet was still the same CHURCH; allbeeit▪ not in the same good condition, of Health, and integrity, of all her Members: and, now, again, by the Purgation of of the WORD, and SPIRIT, convalescing, is yet, still the same CHURCH; allbeeit in a greater Degree of Health, than before.  
And, still the CHURCH lived the same Life of GOD, although not, always, in alike measure, and force. And, the Evil, or Disease, was still one, and the same, wasting the Life of the CHURCH; albeit, not, at all times, in alike force, or seen working; neither, yet, ever, over-going, universally, every Member: howesoever, it, in common, over-went, and affected, all. For, it never, utterly, extinguished the Life of GOD, in the CHURCH. If your Doctors would; or, if your seduced ones, could, understand this; all your men's vain Objections, of the Church, should go in Smoke. But, of this matter, I have written so largely, in my Defence of our Callings, and, Discovery of the adversary's Dotage; as, I weary, here, to multiply so many words unto you. And, this, which I have, now, more than once said, sufficiently answereth your Man's next Question.  Philomathes. 
The next Question, is:  

Who kept the holy Scriptures then,  
From the hands of wicked men?   Eubulus. 
In this Interrogatour, I can not tell, whether 
XXXVIII.  he showeth himself, more ignorant, or impudent: for, first, it is asked, as if nothing had been in the Body, but the Sore. If, besides the consuming Gangrene, there was ever a Body, wherein it was, and, though affected therewith, in common; yet, having Members, some lightly affected, some wholly free of that Evil; how shameless is your Man, in this his question? Next, what if the keeping of Scripture, had been even by the contagious Company? Is this either impossible, or a new thing, to the LORD? And, hath it not foregoing Examples, of the like marvellous dispensation, to the high commendation, of His Wisdom, and Providence; but, wherein the Keepers have nothing to glory of? Did not the jews, who neither pleased 
●…. Th●…ss. ●…. 15.  GOD, & were Enemies to all Men; who crucified the LORD of Glory, and rejected Salvation; and, on whom the wrath of GOD was come, to the out-most; yet, by His wise disponing Providence, keep, so carefully, the Canon of holy Scripture; as, therefore, they obtain the name of (Christianorum Librarii) The Libraries of Christians? Made not GOD, the holy Vessels of the Temple, to be, carefully, 
E●…ra, 1. 7.  kept, even in Babylon, till the time of Restitution? And, what wonder, then, if, in mystical Babylon, the Vessels, and Instruments, of the true Sanctuary, were long, both kept, and captived? And, may not the Conformity of Case, so jumplie answering, make us, to advert, in a deep Heavenly Wisdom; how those former things, were, also, in GOD HIS Purpose, Stampe●… of things to come? Was not the Ark of GOD, kept, carefully, amongst the Philistimes? Of what Mood hath your Man been, (Philomathes) 
1. Sa●…. 6. ●….  when he moved, so ridiculous a Question?  Philadelphus. 
Why should you so much marvel heereat, Eubulus? You did tell us, before, That their Poet, in this his Army of Interrogatoures, did more trust in the M●…ltitude of all, than in the particular Strength of any one. And, in such common Convocations, it is no wonder, though many be found, not well apppointed, in their Gear. And, now, verily, I count it strange, that Men, professing great things, yet should not only, bewray a shameful Want, both of Light, and Sense, in laying, for the only Rules of Examining, and discerning GOD HIS Truth; What, or where, or what time, or by what Men, aught hath been maintained, and, most commonly, holden: But, even not obscurely tax the ALLMIGHTIE, as leaving His Church, so weakly warranded, of the Way of Truth.  

Not when, nor where; not who, nor what a number,  
Most carried Vogue, is most to be inquired.  
Satan (seducing) with the Spirit of Slumber,  
Soon, wydelie, Stars, and multitudes inspired,  
GOD gave up Men, to what their Hearts desired.  
Thus Satan's Throne was set, even in the Temple.  
Try Truth, for Error early was ing yred;  
We live by Laws, and not by loose Exemple.  
In darkest times, some true light aye remained,  
Though secretly, and, but of some, retained.   Philomathes. 
We are, now, come to our last point, and, as we account, the most choice Shaft, in all our Quyver. Our Man's last part, of his Discourse, upon this point of HAERETICKES, you reduced, (Eubulus) unto this Syllogism:  
If things, affirmed by you, of your Churches, can not consist with the Promise of CHRIST, made to His CHURCH, and her certain Condition there-by: and, if you are forced, to acknowledge, of the Church of Rome, that which is competent, only, to CHRIST His Church: then are your Churches Haereticall; and, the Church of Rome, is the Church of CHRIST.  
But, the first is true.  
Therefore, the second, also.  Eubulus. 
That was, indeed, the Syllogism, wherein I 
XXXIX.  compryzed this last part of your Man's poetical Discourse, upon HAERETICKES.  Philomathes. 
thereof, granting the Proposition, you denied the Assumption; and, have, accordingly, done your best, to show it false, in this part, that any thing is affirmed by you, of your Churches, wherewith the Promise of CHRIST, can not consist. The other part of the Assumption, seemeth, yet, to stand strong: namely, that you are forced, to confess, that of the Church of Rome, which can not be competent, but to the Church of CHRIST: and, therefore, that the Conclusion, at least, for that part, is true: namely, That The Church of ROME, is the Church of CHRIST. This point, confessed, by you, of Rome; and, which can be competent, to none other Company, but to CHRIST His Church, is the lawful Ordination of Pastors; as you, yourself, did, before, very formally, take up, in this Syllogism:  
To give lawful Ordination, to Pastors, is competent, only, to the Church of CHRIST.  
But, Protestants acknowledge, That Ordination, given by the Church of Rome, was lawful Ordination.  
Therefore, the Church of Rome, was the Church of CHRIST. And, consequently, Protestants are Haeretickes, who have forsaken her communion.  Eubulus. 
If I have well, and clearly, overthrown the 
XL.  first part of his Assumption, as you confess, (Philomathes) that I have done my best, to that effect: consider, with yourself, what Feet, the other part thereof, can possibly find, for to stand upon. But, to try this: You acknowledged▪ That I proved no Praevaricatour, in taking up the sum of your Man his Argument: but, that, uprightly, I have brought it forth, in all the strength his words can give it.  Philomathes. 
I acknowledge it, indeed; and, approve your Ingenuity, in such points.  Eubulus. 
Then, will I, as clearly, unfold to you, the 
XLI.  manifold Deceit thereof. For, first, his whole Argument, is a beguiling Sophism; à communi indiviso, as the Schools speak; to be a separate part in the Community. And, to clear this, I will, orderly, go thorough the parts of his Syllogism. You have to advert, the deceit of his Proposition: For, that lawful Ordination of Pastoures, is competent, to no Company, or Body, but to the Church of CHRIST; it is most certain. For, the maintainers of Pastoures, must, of necessity, have outward lawful Place, and power, in the visible CHURCH: in which, except they, both were, 〈◊〉 did, also, obtain, Place, and Power there-in, they ●…uld be no lawful maintainers at all. Now, because that Body, in common, in which all lawful maintainers are, and must be, is, undoubtedly, the Church of CHRIST: there-upon, to insinuate, that all, or most part, of maintainers, in this Body, are of it: and, though lawful Pastoures, yet, either true Pastoures, or Christians, it is a Sophistical Deceit, à communi indiviso, as I have said. And, upon your Man's Proposition, thus, rightly understood, and, as it can only be admitted, to be true; when you have assumed, that, Ordination, given by the Church of Rome, was lawful Ordination: yet, shall you never be able to conclude more, hereupon, than, That the Church of Rome, is in the CHURCH, and common Body. Where-by it was, (before visible Separation was made, from that Contagion, in, but not of the Body, by divine Commandment, to the Witnesses, to Come up, hither) that Ordination given by the Church of ROME, 
〈◊〉. 11. and 14.  was lawful Ordination. And, that, which, a little before, I answered to your Man's Question, (Were all damned, eternally, Who were not of your Company?) may clear to you the enfolded Fallacy of this your Man's Proposition also. For, within the CATHOLIC CHURCH, are CHRIST, and Antichrist; TRVETH, and Lies; WHEAT, and Chaff; PASTORS, and Wolves; the true TEMPLE, and the Abomination of Desolation, standing, also, (in sanctis Ecclesiae loc●…) in the holy places of the Church; the Body, and the consuming Gangrene.  
Now, upon that, which is proper, and competent, to the whole Body; and, therefore, rightly propounded of the Body, in common: and, which, also, is rightly assumed, not only of parts of the Body, (because, of that Body:) but, even, of the Apost●…me, or Gangrene, (because, in the Body,) to conclude, That the Gangrene were in the Body, it will hold: but, to conclude, thereof, That i●… is of the Body, it will not: much less, That it is the only, and self body. Shall the Sore, in the Body, appropriate, therefore, to itself; or, glory of the natural, and lively Actions of the Body, because it is in the Body; yea, and hath even over-gone the Body, in common? A man hath the Gore, in his Leg: which Leg, allbeeit, in an huge degree, festered; yet, walketh, and moveth, through the remnant of living, and moving power, which it yet retaineth. Now, shall the Gore, here, glory, that, by it, the Leg walketh, and moveth; whereas, it is, by it, that the Leg creapeleth, and halteth?  
Lawful Ordination, is a good, yea, and proper Action, of the Church of CHRIST: not of the Gore, or for the Gore, which is in the Church, and staineth it: but, through the Life, and Power of the Head, yet remaining in the Body, albeit affected, and having diverse Members, even corrupted, with the Sore. papality, is the Gore in the Church, but not of it: of which, to conclude, the proper Actions of the Church, because it hath place there-in; and there-upon, farther, to conclude, of it, the Title of the Church, and Body, whose, properly, the Actions are; it is but a fraudulent Illuding. Neither, because lawful Ordination, is a proper Action of the Church of CHRIST, will it, therefore follow, That who ever give lawful Ordination, are of the Church, how-so-ever they must be in it. For, as I have, elsewhere, evinced, clearly, lawful Ordination, may be taken from a Wolf, and Thief, who, as yet, still retaineth outward Place, and Power of ordaining.  
Thus, then, (Philomathe●…) if your Man's Proposition, be understood so, as, that, where ever lawful Ordination of Pastors were, that Body, (considered wholly) behoved to be the Church of CHRIST, I yield it to be●… true: but, if he, fraudfully, would insinuate, That all within that Body, who gave Ordination, were the Church, or of the Church of CHRIST, then is his Proposition deceitfully false; and he concludeth nothing.  
Now, let us see his Assumption. (But, the Protestants acknowledge, That Ordination, given by the Church of Rome, was Lawful Ordination) This Assumption, as it may be understood, in an●…e of two divers Senses; so, I must, accordingly, answer it. For, first: if by the name of the Church of Rome, be understood, the common Body of the visible Church, albeit, at that time, affected, so far, even in common, with that Antichristian Sore, as by Fraud, and tyrannical Usurpation, the Name or Number of the Beast, sitting there-in, were imposed: albeit numbers, there-in, never received his character; I grant his assumption 〈◊〉 be true: but, where-on, he shall conclude nothing, either against us: or for the Church of Rome, as we oppugn her. For, we never pleaded against the Body; neither have we ever separated ourselves from the Body, as your Men would fain bind upon us: but, we plead against papality, in the Body; and, have separated ourselves, from the Sore, and such deadly contagious parts, as are infective, and incurable: offering, still, the purging Medicine of GOD HIS Word, for the cure, and Health, of all affected Members, who will admit Physic; and, for destroying of the annoying, and eating Evil: praying GOD, heartily, for the perfect convalescing of the whole Body. And, the Sore, is still more than ridiculous to oppone, for defence of itself, the actions, or properties, of the Body, wherein it is: for, within that Body, even affected, in common, and bearing the name or number of the Beast, were, always, numbers, of not only lawful, but, also, true Pastors, to give Ordination. For, a sick Body, is still a true, and living Body: but, the Sickness, in it, is no part of it, and is Enemy to the Life thereof. Next, again, if, by the name of the Church of ROME, your Poet understand, even the papality, or characterized Papists: that is, the incurable parts, deadly festered with the Sore, (which only we impugn:) then, albeit not absolutely, yet, in some respect, we grant, the Ordination, even so given, to have been lawful: namely, so long as they retained outward Place, and Power of Ordination; before Antichrist's full detection, and separation of the revived Witnesses, from the contagious Company. Because, albeit the maintainers were Wolves, and Thiefs, yet they were not, in common, known to be so: but, retained still, with all, in common, the reputation, if not of true, yet, of lawful Pastors. In which case, the receiving of Ordination, from them, was nothing praejudiciall to the sincere Receiver of the same, who had not, as yet, espied them to be Traitors. And, this Lawfulness was not, because it was ministered by the Sore, or deadly festered parts in the Body: but, because those festered parts were still in the Body of the Church, and, in common, also, esteemed to be of it: and, albeit dead, incurable, and contagious, yet were not cut off, outwardly, from the Body: thus, retaining, still, the account of Members; albeit, in effect, they were none, but a deadly consuming Evil.  
If your Poet, poor Man, had either understood, or considered, what, I think, I have, plainly, laid before you: if he had not been, first, a very shallow Ignorant, and unstable PROTESTANT; and, now, (I warrant you) no profound PAPIST: how could this have, so much, stupefied him, and casten him into such a Musing; that, in the REFORMATION of the CHURCH, we made no question, to receive, and use, the MINISTRY, of PRIESTS, ordained by the CHURCH, which he calleth ROMAN?  
For, as the Body, allbeeit affected, yet was the Body: So, the Calling of the MINISTERS therein, allbeeit tainted, and corrupted, in common, yet, was a CALLING; and, that, according unto the state, and time, lawful.  
And, your Poet his Musing, hath, herein, so marred his Memory; that, forgetting what they most object against us; he yieldeth us, hereby, that our PASTOURES, and REFORMERS, had an ordinary Vocation.  
Now, as I have opened, the employed Deceit, of your Poet his Proposition, and Assumption, you may see, (Philomathes) what Conclusion he can be able to build thereupon; either for the Church of ROME, notwithstanding any Confession of ours; or, yet, against us.  
And, this, forsooth, is the Argument, whereof all your Men, so much glory, as, they do entitle it, their INVINCIBLE ARGUMENT: and, wherein your Poet hath so much pleased himself, that he hath reserved it, for his last Blow: and, falleth, even for to muse, what we can be able to answer thereunto: and, is so secure, of getting none Answer from us, as, he is content, to set this, to all his Disciples, for a term of adhering to the Romish Faith: till we, forsooth, find out an Answer thereunto. But, besides that little, which I have, here, said, as I think, I have answered thereunto, so at length, and plainly, in my Defence of our Callings, and Epistle, to a Recusant, (where, of purpose, this point is handled) as, I need not, here, at this time, insist farther there-in. I refer you, to those TREATISES, for a more distinct Light, and fuller Resolution herein. Which, if you shall read, with care, and that Ingenuity, which I conceive to be in you; it may fall, that your Poet repent him, of praefixing you so short a time, to remain a Romanist.  Philomathes. 
I will, GOD willing, read them, both carefully, and uprightly. And, seeing that in them, as you say, this point of matter, is purposely handled; I will not urge you to speak more thereof, at this tyme. For, even in the little, which you have said, you have given me somewhat more, to muse upon, than I expected: and, which will stir me, to search what, more accuratelie, hereof, you have, elsewhere, written.  Philadelphus. 
I hope, (Philomathes) you shall find yourself so satisfied, in this, which your Men esteem, and call, their Invincible Argument, by reading those TREATISES; and, shall find it, in them, so solidly answered, as though your Poet should not only fall from his Muses, to musing: but, even, from Musing, should fall to Madness; yet shall he never be able, to make thereunto any sound Reply. As for his Counsel, which, upon vain Confidence of this his Argument, he giveth, of cleaving to the Romish Faith; let them follow it, whom GOD hath not, and upon more ●…ure Grounds, advised better.  
If he were able to prove, either, That the Doctrine, preached by his Apostle, AUGUSTINE, was the true, and uncorrupted FAITH of CHRIST; or, that, since AVGVSTINE'S time, it had not received great Increase of Corruption; he might the better bind us to his Counsel. But, bare Personal Succession, without Evidence of the principal, and most proper Succession, will never conclude that. And, your Poet proveth, but still like himself, and closeth up his Rhyme, ridiculously, in bringing it.  

Our Callings, still, you, impudently, quarrel,  
Though Answeres you have gotten many one.  
Your Poet's pricked, with plain approaching Peril,  
Of your Empire, and Rome's now tottering Throne.  
Not daring more our Doctrine then oppone,  
He fettleth, faulty to find our Vocation.  
Forgetting straight, and what he sayeth, anon,  
Musing, he moves to us this Exprobuation;  
That Popish Priests, with us, kept Place, and Title.  
Your Poet, poor Man, muzeth much on little.    

CHAPTER IX.  PHILADELPHUS. 
NOW, (Philomathes) I think, you see, how, at your Entreaty, Eubulus hath, clearly, answered, unto all your Man's Questions: where-of, at the beginning, you praesumed so much, as, that there were some of them, to which, very hardly, he would find an Answer.  Philomathes. 
Verily, (Philadelphus) I can not deny, but that I rest greatly Debtor, both to you, and to Eubulus, for this Day's Communication: and, that, so cowardly, at mine Entreaty, you were induced thereunto: wherein, I think, the time hath been so well spent, as (if it may not be unpleasant unto him) it may make me to be, often, hereafter, a more than troublesome, Interrupter of Eubulus better Thoughts.  
As for your Answers, I will not, so rashly, determine, what to think: but, truly, I must, uprightly, confess, that I have heard more, than I expected: which, stirreth me, to covet yet more; and, will make me, carefully, to catch all Occasions, to breed Eubulus farther Molestation.  Eubulus. 
Your honest Heart, (Philomathes) will make 
I.  me, always, glad, and ready to give you Contentment, in aught I can: For, otherways, truly, I, utterly, abhor all contentious Disputation; and, I account, all, both Speech, and Paper, but badly employed, which is spent, upon any of such a Disposition.  
My Counsel, unto you, and, out of upright Love, is; As GOD hath given you this, that you, both hear, and read, calmly, and carefully: So, that you be, both earnest, and instant, in all humble, and fervent Prayer, unto GOD, for the Direction of HIS Holy Spirit, in the right way of HIS Fear; which is the only Way, to true Illumination: and, not heat of Contention, Bitterness, Pride, Self-love, and Singularity; which: (in GOD His justice, Who resisteth the Proud, and giveth Grace unto the Humble) but involve Men, still, more and more, in Blindness, and induration of Heart.  Philomathes. 
I give you hearty Thanks, also, for this your good, and loving Counsel: which, by GOD His Grace, I shall be mindful of, and labour to follow. And, now, unto that Grace of GOD, we must, even heartily, commend you: For, both the declining time of the Day, and our Effayres, do call us another way.  PHILADELPHUS, and EUBULUS. 
The BLESSING of GOD, accompany you, in all your ways: and, direct you, in the right Path of SALVATION.  PHILOMATHES, and ERIPHILUS, apart. PHILOMATHES. 
AND, have we not, think you, (Eriphilus) spent, both pleasantly, and profitably, a piece of time? Trust me, I can not, but like well of this Eubulus, his discreet Disposition: though but even now first acquainted with him. And, hath he not, think you, said much more, in the points, which we have passed, both against us, and for themselves, than we could have imagined, that, possibly, they might have brought? So, as, verily, the longer, the more, I am induced, to think, and see, that it is a good, yea, a necessary thing, for Christians, to be humbly, and prudently careful; in proving, and trying, what they do hold, in Matters of Faith; wherein Men stand, in no less hazard, than of missing of, or hitting on, the right Way of Salvation.  Eriphilus. 
I am so far from your Temper, in this matter, (Philomathes) as, by the plain contrary, I think, we have badly bestowed this Day: wherein, with great indignation of Heart, I have been forced, to hear the Holy Church, disdaynfullie mocked, and bitterly railed upon. So, as I, both blame myself greatly, for casting in any such purpose, and you, al-so, for so curiously insisting there-in. And, by this Day's experience, I perceive, well, how just reason our Holy Fathers have, to interdict Catholics, absolutely, of all; either hearing of these Heretics, or conference with them, or reading of their Books: and, that how-so-ever, some coole-mynded Men, can not brook it, thereiss great reason, of ridding away, and dispatching, out of the World, even by all means, of such pestilent and pernicious Men: who, except they be quite razed out, will not fail, to subvert the whole state of the World. For, I see, (Philomathes) that, by your giving Ear, to their charming Speeches, you are, all-readie, put in the Stays; yea, half over-turned. For me, when-so-ever I hear aught of them, to which I can not make Answer; I, then, make the Sign of the Cross, over my Person; and, I turn mine Heart, and Ears, another way. So, as, let them speak, write, or preach, what they please, (how true, plain, and infallible, soever, it appear;) yet, I determine, with myself, That it is false: and, I rest, upon the Authority of holy Church; whose Doctrine, I count it sin, once to put in question.  Philomathes. 
Against an undoubted Light, and clearly convincing Truth, it were, indeed, high sin, once to deliberate: much more, curiously, or carnally, to make question. But, for attaining to Knowledge, and Resolution, in doubtful Matters; to inquire humbly, soberly, and sincerely; we not only well may, but, also, are, of duty, holden. And, who, without Light, are carried, upon any Man's Credit, in Matters of Salvation; I think, they more resemble senseless Blocks, than wise Christians.  
As for your other Opinion, (of ridding away, out of the World, by whatsoever means, those you call Haeretickes) I am sorry to hear it of you: and, so much the more, if you have uttered it, not only out of Passion; but, also, out of a settled judgement. And, to speak freely to you, in this; I think, this Doctrine, in many of our Men, bewrayeth, evidently, what Spirit they are of. And, for me, I not only, can account them, no Christians; but, even, no Men at all; or, worthy of humane Society: who, under any Pretext of Zeal, do shake all Bands of Piety, and Civility.  
And, it will be, assuredly, seen, (Eriphilus) that this Tragical, and bloody Wisdom, (where-by Men, now, are begun to think, that the Catholic Faith, must be maintained) shall be the Mean, to hasten the Ruin of the Romish Church: while all the World shall be wakened, by their own Peril, and clear Sight, of such monstrous Inhumanity, to destroy the Destroyer's of the Earth.  EUBULUS, and PHILADELPHUS, apart. EUBULUS. 
YOU did tell me, very rightly, at our first 
II.  Discovery of these two Gentlemen, that, allbeeit, both of them Papists; yet, they were, of a much contrary Disposition: for, so we have, indeed, tried them. I love this Philomathes his Towardness; and, I hope well of him. The other's waywardness, and bitter Disposition, I dislike as far.  Philadelphus. 
You remember, how, even before our encountering of them, I was wishing you, to make some Answer to these Questions, of this Ballader: and, Theriomachus was, also, of my judgement. Now, though you refused to do so; yet, let me entreat you, thus far, as to write, but a short Record, of this our Day's Conference.  Eubulus. 
Though, even that piece of Pains, were, in my 
III.  Opinion, but idle, and unprofitable; yet, it is too small a matter, whereof to refuse you: whom, for many respects, I am holden, both to love, and honour. For, otherways, to write, either at length, or of purpose, any Answer, to such things, (so often, and, so learnedl●…e, confuted) I neither think it expedient, for any, so ●…o bus●…e himself; and, for me, in so manifold Distractions, which, you know, I have, and, a daily Employment, in the matters of my Calling; together, with such imbecility of Body, as can not endure great Pains; I were even greatly blameworthy, so to waste, either Time, or Travel. Therefore, henceforth, let no Man put me to business. GOD grant, we may earnestly study, to our own Sanctification; and, according to that great Dispensation committed unto us, we may labour to work the same, carefully, in the Hearts of others: and, not to delight in contention of Disputations; about Questions, which but engender Strife; and, do more feast idle Humours, than they edify Godly Souls.  

Illuminate, O Blessed LORD of Lights,  
The syled Eyes, of simple ones, to see:  
Disclose the Deepness so of Satan's Slights,  
That straying Sheep, may turn again to THEE.  
Sling Babel, as a Millstone, in the Sea;  
And let the NEW JERUSALEM, All-Glorious,  
Twelve Ports of Pearl cast up, for Entry free,  
To All, who in the Lamb's Blood are victorious.  
Bring down that Beast, of all this Evil th'Enacter;  
His Name, his Number, and his cursed Character.    
FINIS.   

A PASTORAL ADMONITION, TO REPENTANCE.  

WHat wonder, though they have so small success,  
All Enterpryzes by us undertaken?  
We, meschantlie, have readmitted Messe,  
Which, happily, was from our shoulders shaken.  
Thus, having foully, then, our Faith forsaken,  
All our Endeavours, duly, GOD deludeth.  
HIS Choler kindleth still, and can not slaken:  
HE, justly, still, our sinful Suits secludeth.  
Nor, shall our Foes, but daily vex, and wrong us,  
Till once we put all strange Gods from among us.   

No love of Mess, had ever led us to it:  
This Grounds was, on Politic Praetences:  
But, no Fraetence, had driven us to do it,  
If, in our GOD, we had placed all Defences.  
But, from HIS Word, so strayed have our Senses,  
In Humane Help, we our Repose have placed.  
And, therefore, GOD us rightly recompenses.  
Our Designs fail, our Do are disgraced.  
To Asa, King, what GOD spoke, by Hanani,  
Concerneth us, much more than him, or any.   

From Syrian's King, Asa secure sought,  
And, hired them, with State, and Temples Treasure.  
We vainer help, at dearer ●…ate have bought:  
Of Asa's Sin, exceeding much the measure:  
And, doubled thus, have on us GOD'S displeasure;  
On-drawing, undeclynable Destruction,  
Repent we not, while we have any leisure.  
It's clear, by undeniable Induction,  
Some Wages, Asa warred out on that Nation:  
Of Babel, we bring in th'abomination.   

Proud Ammon's King, with jabesh, was contented,  
For to conclude, a Covenant, of Peace;  
So being, beastly, that they had consented,  
To undergo a singular Disgrace:  
That, pulling out their right Eyes, from their Face,  
All Israel he might, so make ashamed.  
But, much more ignominious is our Case,  
Our Beastliness, and much more to be blamed.  
Our Parties Pride, surpasse●…h that Exemple:  
To Molech, we must re-erect a Temple.   

Then, let us turn again to GOD, who smites us:  
And, doubtless, He will unto us return.  
Sliding aback, so long as it delights us,  
We never shall miss Matter for to mourn.  
It's senseless Pride, against the Pricks to spurn.  
Take counsel, then, while CHRIST upon us calleth:  
His kindled wrath, begin it once to burn,  
Woe to the Wicked, in His Fangues that falleth.  
Will we but put all strange Gods from among us,  
And all the World will be too weak to wrong us.   

With Pity, LORD, respect Thy People poor,  
In JESUS CHRIST; who, gracious and good,  
Salvation to Sinners, did procure,  
By sheeding, on the Cross, his Sacred Blood.  
HE is our Solace, and Celestial Food;  
Us nursing up, in hope of endless Glory:  
HE hath removed all that us withstood:  
HE comforts us, 'gainst all may make us sorry.  
Since, here-to, nought, but Mercy miere, did move THEE,  
Should we not, LORD, with all our Souls, then, love THEE?   
FINIS.   

The Author his Meditation, on the 63 Year of his Age, now 〈◊〉- 〈◊〉.  

THis is (I know) my Climactericke year,  
And, wherein, if it shall please GOD to take me,  
What profit, or what pleasure, have I here,  
So lovely, as the love thereof may make me,  
Affect frail Life, which must, at length, forsake me?  
Which is of Ills, but a Succession Sphericke:  
whereof each hour, I count my Climactericke.   

On ●…irier Hopes, my Soul itself here stayeth:  
I neither loathe, nor love, long here to live.  
Long biding, here, my Blessedness delayeth.  
here, under Sin, I do but groan, and grieve:  
Heartbroken, but that, firmly, I believe,  
My Death, an End shall set to Sin and Sorrow.  
Gladly, come on, then, grateful Guest, to morrow.   

Mean while, my GOD, with Thy good Spirit direct me,  
So as I never wander from THY Ways:  
And, by THY Potent Power, so protect me,  
As, stable I may stand, 'gainst all Essays.  
Discowrage not THY Servaunt, with Delays:  
But, howsoe'er it shall please THEE to prove me,  
Still let me feel, my LORD, that THOU dost love me.   

Each moment teach m●…e, of my Day●…s, to number:  
To Wisdom, wholly, that mine Heart applying,  
I never sink down, in a senseless slumber:  
But, (Lusts, and all ungodliness denying;  
And on THY loving Promises relying)  
In all Assaults, I may have Hope, and Hearting:  
And, last, to THEE, a peaceable Departing.   

I seek not Peace, with Sinners, or with Sin:  
But Peace, which passeth understanding all.  
Which Newbirth, here, doth in our breasts begin:  
In that me keep, till hence, LORD, Thou me call.  
From Faith, Hope, Love, LORD, let me never fall:  
But, fight out this good Fight, by THY Grace,  
eternally, sign, let me see THY Face.   

There shall I found, that inexhausted Fountain,  
Of endless Bliss: there shall my Soul be filled,  
With sight of Thee: there, settled on my Mountain,  
I shall have more, than Heart e'er wished or willed.  
In Book of Life, there shall I see me Billed.  
Satiety of joys lies there-in Store,  
And unperturbed Pleasures, evermore.   

Pass up, then, Soul; possess that pleasant Place.  
Only for GOD'S peculiar Ones prepared.  
Go in to Glory, by the Gate of Grace;  
Where never more in Sin thou shalt be snared.  
What we shall be, there shall it be declared.  
I long to know the Case, which never Eye,  
Here saw, Ear heard, Heart thought, what that may be.   
FINIS.   

ESCAPES, IN PRINTING.  
Pag. lin. for read 10 35 exceeding opportunity, exceeding opportun●…lie. 11 22 Thessalonian, Thessalian. 12 5 Thessalonian, Thessalian. 27 8 to her own, of her own. 37 26 Mamackes, Maniackes. 41 22 are seen, are not seen. 46 30 Gates that are, Gates are. 66 3 and no part, as no part. Ibid. 9 notive, nocive. 70 31 his is, this is. 71 5 cleareth you, cheereth you. Ibid. 13 Mules, Moles. Ibid. 15 at a light, not a little. 78 3 separablie, separatelie. 88 16 Mules, Moles. 97 19 in doing, is doing. 113 24 a gain, a Game. 127 31 close all, clozeth all. 128 21 ingeniously, ingenuously. ●…51 18 to be a separate, to a separate.