¶ A disputation of purgatory made by Johan Frith which is divided in to three books. ¶ The first book is an answer unto Rastell/ which goeth about to prove purgatory by natural philosophy. ¶ The second book answereth unto Sir Thomas Moore/ which laboureth to prove purgatory by scripture. ¶ The third book maketh answer unto my lord of Rochestre which most leaneth unto the doctoures. ☞ Beware jest any man come and spoil you thorough philosophy and deceitful vanity/ thorough the traditions of men/ and ordinations after the world/ and not after Christ. ☜ Colossenices. two. Johan Frith unto the Christian Reader. GRace and peace be with the christian reader. I am sure there are many that will much marvel and count it a great presumption that I being so young and of so small learning dare attempt to dispute this matter against these three personages of the which numbered two/ that is to say my 〈◊〉 de of Rochestre and Sir thomas Moore/ are ancient men both of great wit and dignity. notwithstanding I will desire them patiently 〈◊〉 hear mine answer/ not advertising who speaketh the words but rather what is said. And 1. Tim. 4. as concerning mine youth/ let them remember what paul monischeth. 〈◊〉. Timo. 〈◊〉. willing that Timothens should instrude the congregation and that no man should despice his youth for as the spirit of god is bound to no place/ even so is he not addicre to any age or person/ but enspireth when he will and where he will makin 〈◊〉 the young to see visions & espy the truth/ and ●…he eldres to dream dreams and to wander in phantasyes Ades. 2. Joe●…. 2. 〈◊〉. 2. And as touching my l●…ninge I must needs aknowiege (as the truth is) that it is verysmal/ nevertheless that little (as I am bound/ have 1. Lo. 12 I determed/ by god's grace) to bestow to the edifying of Christ's congregation which I pray god to increase in the knowledge of his word. I would not that any man should admit my words or learning/ except they will stand with the scripture and be approved thereby. Say them to the touchstone and try them with god's word. If they be found false and countrefaite/ then damn them/ and I shall also reuo●…e them with all mine heart. But if the scripture allow them/ that you can not deny but it so is/ then reciste not the doctrine of god/ but knowledge your ignorance and seduction and return gladly in to the right way. For if you can not improve it by god's word/ and yet/ of an hate and malicious mind that you bear unto the truth labour to resist it and con 〈◊〉 it that it should not spread: I ensure you your sin is ●…remissible and even against the holy ghost/ and the blood of them that perish 〈◊〉. 33. for fault of instruction shallbe required on your hands. ●…araduenture some of you will say that your fathers and old 〈◊〉 with many holy men and doctoureo have so heleved/ & that therefore you will abide by the old. I an swear: The ways and judgements of god are m●…ruelous/ who 〈◊〉 whether god have suffered his 〈◊〉 to err and be seduced for a 〈◊〉/ to the 〈◊〉 that the unfaithful which would not believe the truth but had pleasure in iniquity might st●…ble at their error in to their 1. 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉 confusion and ruin? All though a man be never so faithful and holy/ yet is there much imperf●…ction in him as long as he is included in this mortal body/ how be it it is not imputed unto him/ but thorough the faith in Christ's blood hoellye pacefyed and forgiven. And there fore it is not sure that we follow their exterior works or other imaginations/ but let us ever confer them unto the pure word of god/ and as the 〈◊〉 testefyeth so let 〈◊〉 th●…. 〈◊〉 lord of Rochestre doth testify himself writing upon the. 〈◊〉. article/ that there are many points both of the gospels and other scriptures which are now discussed more 〈◊〉 lie/ and more clearly understonden than they have been in times past. And addeth furthermore that there are diverse places in scripture yet sum deal dark/ which he doubteth not but that they shallbe more open and light unto our●… posterity/ for why shall we despair of that (sayeth he) sith that the scripture is for that intent left with us that it may be understand of us exactly and to the utmost point? Of this may you euidentl●…e perceive that ●…he old fathers and holy doctoures have not seen all the truth. But somewhat is also left/ thorough the high provision of god/ to be discussed of their successors. And therefore is it not meet that we straight ways cleave unto their words with out any further enserchinge the scriptures/ but we must examine all things by the scriptures although. S. Paul or Peter should preach it unto us/ as we see experience Acts. xvij. that Acts. 17. when Paul preached/ the audience daily searched the scriptures whether it were as he said But you have been of long continuance secluded from the scriptures/ which is the cause of such gross errors as you are now fallen in/ so that you could neither search them/ nor yet once look on them. Alas what blindness doth occupy our ey●…s? Are you so childish to believe that the same word which hath made the unfaithful and heretics/ faithful and christian in times past/ is now so far altered that it should 'cause the faithful and christian to become heretics? I pray god open your eyes. How be it we may now well taste at our fingers ends that we have long been in that miserable case that Paul prophesied upon us. ij. Thessalo. ij. that god hath sent us strong delusions because 〈◊〉. Thes. 2 we would not receive the knowledge of the truth: what greater delusion can we have/ then to think that the very word of god/ which was written for our comfort/ which is the very food and sastenaunce of our souls/ which is the sure metyarde and perfect touchstone that judgeth and examineth all things: Rom. 15 to think (I say) that this wholesome word should be our poison and condemnation? And all be it our forefathers have lie ●…ed with out it and received all for truth that our prelate's belies have imagined: yet is not their fault and ours a like (although I tan not excuse their ignorance but that it is sin before the face of god) for they had not the light of god's word opened unto them. Now sith we have the light declared unto us/ and yet will proceed in blind ignorancy and not cō●…rre and examine these juggling mists with the light of god's word/ our ignorance is wilful and with out excuse. Suffer therefore all things what so ever they be/ to be tried and examined by the scripture. If they be true then shall the scripture do them no hurt/ but establish and strengthen them/ for the scripture discloseth nothing but falsehood/ and condemneth nothing but that is damnable. And now to descend unto our matter and disputation which is of purgatory/ I shall show you what occasion I had to take it in hand. I written a let●…ter unto a certain friend in england/ desiring him instantly to send me certain 〈◊〉 which I thought necessary for my use and were not to be got in these parties/ as the chronicles/ Sir Thomas Moor's book against the supplication of beggars and certain other. These books I re●… upon. S. Thomas day before Christmas/ theyeare of our saviour a. M. ccccc. and. XXX. with a letter written in this form: Sir I have sent you such books as you written for and one more of Rastels making/ wherein he goeth about to prove purgatory/ by natural philosophy: which thing (quoth he) I think be more easy to do/ than to prove it by any good scripture. 〈◊〉. This stuff received/ I was mervelouslye desirous and tickled to see what reasons he brought for his probations. And in the beginning and prologue of the book/ he set seven reasons which he said that fond fellows alleged for them to prove that there could be no purgatory. And in deed they are very fond that would deny purgatory/ if there were no better arguments to confute it then he assigneth. But by gods grace I will propound seven times seven which shall have such pith/ that their painful purgatory shall not be able to abide the worst of them/ for these seven that 〈◊〉 assigneth are not worth one been. When I had read and well pondered these reasons/ I thought that he should sharply have confuted them/ as he might full well have done/ specially ●…ith they were but of his own imagination. Nevertheless when I came unto his solutions I found not one but it had ●…erten points repugnant unto the scripture (unto which on●…e reason must ever be obedient ) ye and also they were extremely iniutious unto christ and his precious blood. Then left I him/ and read sir Thomas Mo●…es book/ to see what scripture might be brought for that purpose. And after that made I diliget inquire to come by my lord of Rochester's book which also writeth on the same matter/ and when I had well examined their reasons/ and had seen the order and process of the scriptures 〈◊〉 gel 〈◊〉 which they alleged: I found that clearly verified which Aulus Gellius saith/ that it were ☞ a great deal better for a man to be sharpe●… lie rebuked ye and openly to have his faults published of his enemy/ then to be coldly and slenderly praised of his friend. For a man's enemy ensercheth narrowly and gathereth to gi' there all that he can imagine/ and so accuseth 〈◊〉 man more of a fumous heat then of any verity: and therefore the audience (if they be wise) con sidre his words thereafter/ and so give very small credence or else none unto them. But if a m●…nnes friend before audience do praise him slenderly and coldly/ it is an argument that the person is very faulty/ for a friend beholdeth all qualities and circumstances/ his birth bringing up/ and what feats he hath done all his life long: ye and applieth many things unto his friends praise/ which serve but smallly for it/ for he will leave nothing behind that may he imagened to employ his friends fame and honour. Now if in all these poyn res he can not colour out a glorious apparent laud/ but is compelled for lack of matter to praise his friend slenderly/ then (if the audience be wise) they may soon conjecture that he is no praise worthy/ and also may well doubt whether that small praise which he gave him be true or not. Even so/ when I had read these books of Sir Thomas More and my lord of Rochestre/ and saw the small probations and ●…lender reasons that those two witty and learned men had brought to confirm purgatory/ considering also that they are the chiefest friends/ proctoures and patrons thereof/ and that they had applied many reasons and scriptures for their pourposse (for lack of matter) that rather made against them/ ye and not that only/ 〈◊〉 but also that they dissented between themselves More and my lord of 〈◊〉 stre can not agr●…. in their probations/ for. M. Moore sayeth that there is no water in purgatory. And my lord of rochestre saveth that there is water there. Master Moore sayeth that the ministers of the punishment are devils. And my lord of rochestre sayeth that the ministers of the punishment are angels. master Moore sayeth that both the grace and charity of them that lie in the pains of purgatory/ be increased. My lord of Ro/ chestre sayeth that the souls in purgatory on ta'en there neither more faith nor grace nor charity than they brought in with them. These things considered/ it made mine heart yearn and fully to consent/ that this their painful purgatory was but a vain imagination/ and that it hath of long time but deceived the people and mi●…ed them from their money. The purgatories that god hath notwithstanding god hath left us two purgatoryes. One to purge the heart and cleanse it from the filth which we have partly received of Adam (for we are by nature the children of wrath Ephe. two) and partly added thereto by consenting unto our natural infirmity. This joan. 15. purgatory is the word of god as christ sayeth Io. The purgatory of 〈◊〉 heart. xv. Now are you clean for the word which I have spoken unto you. This purgation obtaineth no man but thorough faith/ for the unfaithful are not purged by the word of god/ as the scribes and pharisees were nothing the better for hearing his word but rather the worse for it was a testimony against them unto their condemnation. And because we receive this purgation only thorough believing the word/ therefore is the virtue of this purging applied also unto 〈◊〉. 15. faith/ for Peter saith Ac. xv. that the gentles har〈◊〉 were purged thorough faith,/ that is to say/ thorough believing the word. And what word is that? verily the preaching that Christ's death hath fully fatisfyed for our sins and pacefyed forever the father's wrath towards us. 〈◊〉. This faith purefyeth the heart and giveth us a will and gladness to do what so ever our most merciful father commandeth us. Nevertheless because our infirmit●…e is so great and our membres so weak and frail that we can not 〈◊〉 pur 〈◊〉 of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 eschew sin as our heart would and as our will desireth: therefore hath god left us a no their purgatory which is Christ's cross. I mean not his material cross that he himself died on/ but a spiritual cross which is adversity/ tribulation/ worldly depression. 〈◊〉. And this is called the rod or scourge of god wherewith he scourgeth every son that he receiveth/ that 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. we may remember his law and mortify the old Adam and fleshly lust which else would wait so rebellious that it would subdue us/ rai ●…ne in us and hold us thraulde under sin. when so ever we have committed a crime theu ●…sal. 89 is god present with this rod as he saith psalm lxxxix. If they defile my ceremonies and donot observe my commaundmentes/ then with a rod shall I punish their sins and with beatings shall I reward their iniquities/ but yet my mercy shall I not take from him neither will I deceive him of my promiss. This 〈◊〉 must we receive with a glad heart and thank our loving father for it/ for it is but a medicine to healc our infirmity and to subdue our rebellious membres. But when our membres are fully mortefyed/ that is/ when death hath subdued our corruptible body/ and our flesh committed to rest in the earth/ then cease the purgatories that god hath ordained/ and than are we fully purged in his sight. If our clergy could have found in their hearts to have taken these purgatories upon thee/ they had never needed to imagine any other but sith their li●…e began to wax so dissolute/ specially sith they should ●…e the salt of the earth and lantrens of light: It was necessary for them to imagine a purgatory after this li●…e/ for else they might be sure that the most part of them were never like to come in heaven. judge 〈◊〉 reader which hast the spirit to discern and knowest the voice of chryst what reasons rastell hath brought and how he hath soluted them. for in my mind both his reasons and solutions are so childish and unsavoury/ so unlearned and barren/ so full of faults and phan rasyes'/ that I rather pity the man's 〈◊〉 ignorance and blindness (which hath so deceived himself thorough philosophy and natural reason) than I fear that he by his vain probations should allure any man to consent unto him. judge and confer the scriptures which Sir thomas More and my lo●…de of Rochestre allege for their opinion/ and I doubt not but that god shall open thine eyes to espy that thing which hath blinded them. judge and compare the scriptures together which I have brought to confirm my purpose. ponder their reasons and my solutions unto them/ and I am sure thou shalt perceive that my small learning hath condemned their high eloquence/ that my folly hath brought to naught their wisdom/ and that my youth hath disclosed their old and festered ignorance. And this is even the old practise of god: to chose the foolish things of the would: to con found the wise. to choose the week/ to confound the mighty: And to choose the vile things which are of no reputation: to confound them of high degree: that no flesh might boast itself in his sight to whom only be praise and thanks for ●…uer. Amen. ¶ A prologue. whereby a man may the better perceive the occasion and hole cause of this book. There was a brother of ours named Simon Fish (which now I trust rests in god's hands) whose eyes god had opened/ not 〈◊〉 to 〈◊〉 the wily walking of hypocrites and ruin of the royalme which thorough their means was nigh at hand: but also to mark and ponder the peril of men's souls/ and how that the ignorant people by their seduction was fallen in to that frantic imagination that they more feared the pope and his decrees which are but vanity/ then god himself & his law which are most rightwise and eternal. This man th●… fore of a fervent and burning zeal that he bore to the wealth of the commonalty, broke out & commanded these hypocrites in a little treatise which he called/ the supplication of beggars/ willing that we should give the abundance of our 〈◊〉 chess unto the poor to whom it is due by the law of god: and that we should no longer suffer oure selves to be dyspoyled & rob of a sight of sturdy lubbarres which under a false cloak of virtue and prayer deceive the poor of their living and both the poor and the rich of their soul's health/ if credence be given unto them. And where these wily foxes would have 〈◊〉 tended the cloak of purgatory affirming that it were due unto them because they pray for their friends souls that they might come to rest/ he answered unto that point preventing their objection/ and proved that either there could be no such purgatory/ or else that the pope were a merciless tyrant which (as he sayeth himself) may deliver them from thence and will not except he have money. At this point began. M. Moore to fume and took upon himself to be proctor for purgatory (I will not say that he was hired thereto of our spiritualty all though many men dare swear it) & to confirm his purpose he wrested sore the scriptures/ and triumpheth also that the very miscreauntes and idolatres believe that there is a purgatory He addeth thereto (to stablish his matter with all) that there is no man which believeth that there is a god and that the soul of man is immortal/ but he must needs grant that there is a purgatory. There took Rastell his hold/ 〈◊〉 which is a prenter dwelling at Paul'S gate in london and of master Moor's alliance/ which also coucteth to country fair his kinsman/ although the beams of his brains be nothing so radiaunte nor his conveyance so commendable in the eyes of the wise. Notwithstanding this Rastell hath enterprised to dilate this matter/ and hath divided it in to iii dialogues/ imagining that two men dispute this matter by natural reason and philosophy secluding christ and all scripture. The one of them (that should dispute this matter) he calleth Ginge ton/ and feigneth him to be a 〈◊〉 and of Mahomet's law. The second he nameth Coming go an almain and of Christ's faith. And he ma●…eth the turk to teach the christian man what he should believe. ●…he first dialogue goeth about to prove by reason that there is a god/ which is merciful and rightwise. The second intendeth to prove/ that the soul of a man is immortal. against these two dyaloges I will not dispute/ partly be cause this treatise should not be over long and tedious/ and partly because that those two points which he there laboureth to prove are such as no christian man will deny (although many of his probations are so slender that they may well be improved) but as cocerninge his third dialogue wherein he 〈◊〉 prove purgatory/ it is hoellye miuryous unto the blood of christ and the destruction of all christian faith/ yfman were so mad as to believe his vain persuasions. And therefore I thought it expe dyent to compare this third dialogue with all the deceitful reasons unto the true 〈◊〉 and pure word of god that at the least Rastell himself might perceive his own blind ignorance and return again in to the right way. And if any man have been deceived thorough his book (as I trust there are but few except●… they be very ignorant) that they may repent with him and glorify go●… for his in estimable mercy which hath sent his light in to this world to disclose and expel their dark and blind ignorancy/ that they may see his ways & walk in them praising the lord eternally. Amen The first book which is an an swear unto rastel's dialogue. THere is no man as I think that hath a natural wirte/ but he will grant me that this book of Rastels making is either true or false. If it be false/ then how so ever it seem to agree with natural reason it is not to be allowed: if it be true/ then must we approve it. Natural reason must be ruled by scripture If natural reason conclude against scripture/ so is it false/ but if it be agreeing to scripture then is it to be hard. Of this may I conclude that if rastel's book be agreeing to scripture/ then is it true and to be allowed/ if it determe contrary to the scripture than is it false and to be abhorred/ how so ever it seem to agree with natural reason. Now is there no christian man but he believeth surely that if christ had not died for our sins we should all have been dampened perpetually and never have entered in to the joys of heaven/ which thing is easy to be proved. for paul sayeth Roma. 5. As thorough one mannés 〈◊〉 sin that is Adam/ ensued death in all men unto condemnation: Even so thorough one man's righteousness which is christ/ came righteousness in all men unto the justification of life. Also Jo. 11. Johan. xi. It it necessary that one man die for the people/ that all the people perish not: so that we had been condemned & had perished perpe tuallye if christ had not died for us. But Rastel with his turk Gingemin exclude Christ and know not of his death/ wherefore all the reasons that they can make unto domesdaye can never prove purgatory (except they imagine that we must first go to purgatory and then after 〈◊〉 hell) for this is a plain conclusion that with out christ (whom they exclude) we can never come to heaven. what fondness were it then to invent a purgatory? Now may you see that rastel's book is fully answered and sith all ready in the dirt/ And that his third dialogue is all false and injurious unto the blood of christ. As for the first and second dialogue/ although there be some errors both against divinity and all good philosophy/ yet will I pass them over/ for they are not so blasphemous against god and his christ as the third is. Not with standing I will not thus leave his book/ although I might full well/ but I will declare unto you what solutions he maketh to these seven weak reasons which he hath propounded himself. for he avoideth them so slenderly/ that if a man had any doubt of purgatory before/ it would make him swear on a book that there were none at al. Besides that it hath not onesolution but there are in it certain points repugnant unto scripture/ so that it is great shame that any christian man should pren te it/ & much more shame that it should be prented with the kings privilege. The first and chiefest reason that moveth this man (ye and all other) to affirm purgatory is this/ which he putteth both in the first chapter o●… his third dialogue and also in the last Man (sayeth he) is made to serve and honour 〈◊〉 god/ now if man be negligent about the commaundmentes of god and commit some venial sin for which he aught to be punished by the justice of god and die suddenly with out repentance and have not made sufficient satisfaction unto god here in the 〈◊〉/ his soule aught neither immediately to come in to the glorious place of heaven because it is sum what defouled with sin/ neither aught it to go to hell unto eternal dampnacy on: bu●… by all good 〈◊〉 of justice/ that soul must be pu●… g●…d in another place to make 〈◊〉 for those essences/ that it may afterward be rece●…ued in to the glorious place of heaven And so by y● justice of god there must needs he a purgatory. 〈◊〉 this reason hath ●…ome apperaunre 〈◊〉 of truth & the similitnde of Wi●…dom/ how be it in deed it is nothing but man's imaginacy on and fantasy. For if we compare it unto ●…od des word than vanisheth it away/ But we regard not the word of the lord/ and therefore chanceth even the same thing unto us/ that happened before unto the children of Israel. psal 81. My people regarded not my voice and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Israel gave no head unto me: therefore let I then go after the appetites of their own hearts They shall wander in thyer own imaginations Now what go they about in this their invention and imagination of purgatory/ but to ponder the: ustice of god in the balance of man's justice 〈◊〉/ 〈◊〉 is no reason that we should enter in to heaven which have not here satisfy 〈◊〉 unto god for our iniquity/ except that we should be tormented & purefyed in another place. we were surely in evil taking if god were of man's complexion which remitteth the fault & reserveth the pain. Nay/ nay/ 〈◊〉 is not greedy to be avenged. He tristeth not after our wormwood/ but suffered all torments in his own body to deliver us from the pains that we had deserved. But 〈◊〉 they 〈◊〉 their reason so strong & 〈◊〉/ I will con●…ute it with one 〈◊〉 that they shall not know whether to tove ne them. But first I will ground●… me upon this scripture. S. pause 〈◊〉. 1. Chessa. 4. on this 1. thes. 4. manner: we that live and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the coming of the lord (unto ●…udgemet) shall not come yerte they that sleep/ for the 〈◊〉, de 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 shall descend from heaven with a shoot and the voice of the archangle and t●…ompe o●… god. And the deed in christ shall arise first/ then shall we which 〈◊〉 & remain be caught up with them also in the clouds to meet the lord in the air/ and so shall we ever be with the lord. Now hearken to my queition Those men that shallbe found alive at the last 〈◊〉 day (for as it was in the time of No even so shall the last day come u●…pon us unwares & as a thief in the night. Mat. 24.) those men I speak Mat. 24. of/ shall any of them be saved or not? There is no man that liveth but he may well say his pater noster/ of the which one part is: forgive us lord our trespasses as we forgive them that tres pace against us/ therefore is no man pure and with Mat. 6. out all sin. And this confirmeth. S. Jo. saying/ If we say we have no sin/ we deceive i Jo. 1. ourselves and the truth is not in us. i johan. i what remedy now? shall they all be damned? There is no doubt but some of them shall not be very evil/ all though they have not made sufficient satisfaction unto god in this world & they aught not to go unto hell to everlasting damnanation (as your own reason proveth) & then shall there be no purgatory to purge and punish them Besides that if there were a purgatory at the time yet could they not be cast in to it/ for all shall be done i the twiclige of an eye. i Cor. xv. & they be 1. Cor. 15. caught up to meet the lord. 1. thess. 4. Is not god as 1. thessa. 4. ●…ust then as he was before? will he not have sin as well then as before/ Now see you no euasyo●… for all your soot imaginations/ for they are not pure and with out spot (as you say) except they make satisfaction themselves unto god. But they must be with out spot or wrinkle that shall entr●… in to heaven/ as Rastell him self doth prove in the. ix. chapter of his third dialogue. How be it I regard not his testimony/ but the scripture affermeth that to be true. Ephe. 〈◊〉. &. 5. Now sith they must be pure ●…uen 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. with out spot or wrinkle that shall enter in to 〈◊〉. 5. heaven/ and these persons are yet spotted with sin and have neither place nor space to purge them in: you must needs conclude whether you will or not that they must all be dampened and yet you think that unreasonable to. Se: whether your arguments of natural reason bring you. But what sayeth the scripture? verily paul. i thessa. 4. espied another way: for he sayeth: & so shall we ever be with the lord: and not dampened. Of this ●…aye we undentlye conclude/ that some shallbe saved although they be sinners and never come in purgatory (there taketh Rastell a fall and all his fautors) and sith god is as just and merciful now as he shallbe then: why shall we go more in to purgatory than they? but mark I pray you how properly that substantial reason wherewith they go about to establish purgatory concludeth: which condemneth in to hell so many thousands/ ye and even them whom paul of firmeth to be saved. And yet at the beginning it seemed very reasonable. Now have I proved you sufficiently that this their reason can prove no purgatory/ for as I sai●…d there shall sinuers enter in to heaven and never come in purgatory. Here paraduen●…ure you be desirous to know how goddess justice is pacefyed. For all sin by the justice of god must needs be punished. Now can the world espy no punishment here/ & therefore they thought it necessary to imagine a purgatory to purge and punish sin. Here answer I with paul ●…hrist the son of god being the brightness of his glory and very image of his substance bearing up all things with the word of his Hebre. 〈◊〉. power/ hath in his own person purged our sins and is set on the right hand of god. Behold the true purgatory and consuming fire which hath fully burned up and consumed our●… sins/ and hath for ever pacefyed the father's wrath towards us. Mark how he saith that Christ in his own person hath purged our sins. If thou yet seek another purgation/ then art thou injurious unto the blood of christ. For if thou thought his blood sufficient then will dost thou seek no nother purgatory/ but give him all the thanks and all the praise of thy whole health and salvation and rejoice hole in the lord. Paul writeth. ephe. 5. on this manner/ Christ loved the congregation. And what did he for it/ sent he it in to purgatory there to be cleansed? Nay verily but gave himself for it that he might sanctefye it and cleanse it in the fountain Ephe. 5. of water thorough the word/ to make it unto himself a glorious congregation with out spot or wrinkle or any such thing/ but that it should be ho lie & with out blame. Now if Christ by these me anes have sanctefyed it & made it with out spot/ wrinkle & blame/ them were it against all right to cast it in to purgatory/ wherefore I must needs conclude that either paul sayeth not true which affermeth that christ hath so purged his cōgregacion/ or else that Christ is unrightwise if he cast them in to purgatory which are with out spot wrinkle and blame in his sight christ chose us in him before the beginning Ephe. 〈◊〉. of the world/ that we might be holy and with out spot in his sight. Ephe. i If thorough his choosing and elec●…yon we be with out spot in his sight/ Alas what blind unthankfulness is that to suppose that he will yet have us tormented in purgatory. Peradventure every man perceau●…th not what this means that we are rightwise in his sight s●…inge that every man is a sinner. i johan. i 〈◊〉 Jo. 〈◊〉 Therefore I will bryflye declare the meaning of the apostle. This is fi●…st a clear case that there liveth no man upon the earth with out sin. notwithstanding all they that were choose in Christ before the foundations of the world were laid/ be with out spot of sin in the sight Ephe. 〈◊〉. of god. Eph. i So that they are both sinners and righteous. If we consider the ymperfeccy on of our faith and charity/ If we consider Gala. 5. the conflict of the flesh and the spirit. gala. 5. If we consider our rebellious members which are sold under sin. Romanos. 7. then are Roma. 7. we grievous sinners. And contrary wise/ if we believe that of merciable favour god gave his most dear son to redeem us from our sin/ If we believe that he imputeth not our sins unto us/ but that his wrath is pacefyed in christ and his blood/ If we believe that he hath free lie given us his christ & with him all things so that we be destitute in no gift. Ro. 8. then are we Ro. 〈◊〉. rightwise in his sight & our conscience at peace Ro. 〈◊〉. with god/ not thorough ourselves/ but thorough our lord Jesus christ. Ro. 5. So mayst thou perceive that thou art a sinner in the self/ and yet art thou rightwise in christ/ for thorough him is not thy sin imputed nor reckoned unto thee. And so are they to whom god imputeth not their sins/ blessed/ rightwise/ with out spot/ wrinkle or blame Roma. 4. psalm 31. And therefore will Roma. 4. he never thrust them in to purgatory. psal. 31. Paul sayeth there is no 〈◊〉. for all have sinned and lack the glory which before god is allowed/ but they are ●…ustified fre●…e by his grace/ thorough the redempeyon that is in christ Je●…u. Roma. iii what say you now/ shall they yet Roma. 3. go in to purgatory? Lalle you that justification trelye by his grace/ to lie in the pains of purgatory? surely that were a new kind of speech which I think paul never vnd●…rstode. Ob●…esey 〈◊〉 Peradventure some man will think mine arguments to be of small pith/ and to dissolve them by a distinction saying/ it is truth that god hath so purged and cleansed us from all our iniquytes/ nevertheless his mercy/ purging and forgiveness have only purefyed us from the fault and crime/ but not from the pain which is due to the crime. To this obie●…tyon I answer/ that if god ofhies mercy & thorough the blood of his son Jesus have not remitted the pain due unto the cry me/ then shall we all be dampened. for the pain due unto every disobedience that is against god/ is eternal damnation. And therefore if this pain were not forgiven us/ then are we still under condemnation/ and so were Christ's blood shed in vain/ & could save no man If they will say that this everlasting Obiec●…y 〈◊〉 pain is not hoellye forgiven us/ but that ●…t is altered in to the temporal pain of purgatory/ out of which the pope may deliver them by his pardon/ for else have they no evasion at all/ then may we soon confute them and that by d●… verse reasons. ●…irst/ that their words are nothing but even their own imagination/ for they can not confirm their sayings by the scripture/ neither aught we to accept any thing as an article of our faith which is not approved by god's word: for we may neither decline unto the right hand nor unto the lift: but only do that the lord commandeth us deuteronomy 4. 5. 12. 13. And again/ if a man should ask them by what authority the pope giveth such pardon. They answer/ that it is out of the merits of Christ's passion. And so at the last they are compelled to grant even against themselves/ that Christ hath not only deserved for us the forgiveness of the crime but also of the pain. If Christ have deserved all for us/ who geveth the pope authority to reserve a part of his deservings from me/ and to cell me Christ's me rites for money. Besides that/ every Christian man aught to apply unto god all things which should employ his honour as far forth as the scripture will suffer. Now seeing it is more unto the honour of god that he should deliver us in his blood both from the crime and from the pain/ and also not repugnant unto the scripture but that he hath relesed us from the pain as well as from the sin: for what intent should we be so unkind as to delpolye him of this great honour/ and without any authority of scripture imagine that he hath not delivered us from the pain as well as from the sin? Moreover/ if he should reserve the pain/ then were it no full remission and forge venesse/ but what blasphemy is that to think that Christ's blood was not sufficient to ge ●…e full remission unto his faithful? ●…urthermore/ for what intent should the pay ne be reserved? to satisfy towards god for their offences? Nay verily/ for all men living are not able to satisfy towards god for one sin. Neither are all the pains of hell able to purge one sin or satisfy for it: for then at the length the dampened souls should be delivered out of hell. ●…inallye/ I think that there was never any temporal punishment institute of god to be any satisfaction for sin/ but the use of all temporal pains and chiefest cause why they were ordyned is this. Temporal pains are profitable for the common men wealth/ that they may be ensamples to ler ne the unfaithful (which else fear not god) that they may at the jest for fear of punishment abstain from committing like offences/ for if their sin were unpunished then should all vice reign to the utter subversion of the comen wealth. They are also profitable for the faithful/ for they try and purify the faith of gods elect/ and subdue and mortify their carnal membres/ that they may be the more able to serve their brethren and to with stand the vehement assaults of temptation which are ever at hand: and also jest they should wax prowed and boast themselves for those gifts which they have received of god. ●…urthermore they set out and advance th●… glory or god. For after that we be put in remèbraunce and made to feal our frail nature that so continually displeaseth god our father: them have we occasion to ponder and compare this transitory pain which we here suffer with tho see enormous trespasses that we have committed and so to espy the infinite mercy and favour of god/ and even in our adversities to be compelled to praise god our merciful and tender father which scourgeth us so favorably for those grievous offences that have deserved a thousand times more punishment. How be it (to say truth) there is no man that can tak●… any such profit of them that men fain to ●…e punished in purgatory. For we neither see it nor hear it/ neither have we any mē●…yon made of it in scripture/ that we may be sure that it so is. Now sith we have no infallible evidence/ but only fantastical imaginations/ it 〈◊〉 pla●…ne enough that there was no such thing orleyned neither to advance god's honour nor yet to the profit of the commonalty or else of gods elect/ for than I am sure that Christ and all his apostles would not hau●… forgotten to have remembered us of it. NOw let us see some of rast●…ls reasons which ●…e sayeth that fond fellows lay for themselves to prove that there should be no purgatory. They say/ (saith Rastell) that contrition R●…stels first argu meant which some call repentance is that which is the very payment and satisfaction for sin/ and they say that when a man committeth a sin and after is repentant therefore/ that god of his goodness doth forgive him & tha●… that repentance is the only satisfaction that god would have made and done for that sin. And then sith a man by such repentance hath made such payment and satisfaction for his sin ne as god would have to be made therefore/ if then that man should go to purgatory and have a new punishment after his death that repentance that he had before should be but void. ●…orsouth I think that neither Rastell Frith ever hard any such reason/ neither yet that any man ever would be so fond as to say that this argument confuted purgatory/ except it were one that were clean purged of his wit before. But whose reason so ever it be/ whether Rastels or any other man's/ let us say it unto the touchstone/ that is the scripture/ to prove whether it be gold or copper/ upright or counterfeit/ truth or untruth. And to be short the first proposition & Mayor of his reason is this that contrition or repentance is the very pay meant and satisfaction for sin. That is a stark lie to begin with all. For if we by all our contrition/ repentance/ sacrifices and works (I add more to help him) can fully pay and satisfy for our sins/ then is Christ deed in vain and might full well have spar●…d his blood. This can no man deny/ but he that will set at naught both Christ & all the scripture. Rast●…. Now mark how he proceedeth. And they say (sayeth Rastell) that when a man committeth a sin and after is repentant therefore/ that god of his goodness doth forgive him/ and that that repentance is the only satisfaction that god would have to be made and done for that sin. This is the next part of his argument & containeth Frith. two lies at once cheyned together/ for where he sayeth that when a man committeh a sin and after is repentant therefore that god of his goodness doth forgive him: you must first consider that neither he nor his turk Gingemin know any thing of christ Now if it were not for Christ's sak/ all the repentance that man can imagine could not move the goodness of god to forgive one sin. But by his justice (where Christ's death hath not effect) he must needs condemn. The second lie is this/ that that repentance is the onlye satisfaction that god would have made and done for that sin/ for if this be true/ then is our faith false. For our faith holdeth that if Christ had not died for us/ we had all perished. Then proceedeth he as though all that he had said before were true/ on this manner. And then (says he) sith Rastell a man by such repentannce hath made such payment and satisfaction for his sin as god would have to be made therefore/ If than that man should go to purgatory and have a new punisment after his death/ that repentance that he had before should be but void. Even just/ if heaven fallen we should catch larks. Now let us see how properly he answereth Frith. unto his own question. And you shall find more blasphemies against Christ in his answer then preceded in his argument. Think you this man hath not taken great pains? To prepare himself unto his matter he Three lies at once. bringeth in three lies in the first chapter. The first is he saith that only the soul suffereth and not the body/ and maketh Comingo/ whom he feigneth to be a Christian man/ to grant it well and wisely. Forsooth this is new learning in deed. For if this be true/ them Christ's body suffered no harm/ neither when he was scourged/ nenyther when he was crowned with thorn neither when he was nailed on the cross. But I report me unto your own selves if you cut but your fingers/ feel you no pain? and yet I think you will not say that you cut your soul From hence forward if you see a poor man shyveringe for cold in the street/ you may bid him walk a knave and bear him in hand that he feeleth no harm/ for as this man sayeth his body feeleth no harm/ and I promise you of ho nest that his soul catcheth no cold. But what need I to make mowordes of this matter sith you may make experience yourselves? The second lie is this. That man was created of god to do him honour and service. For if a man may say the truth man was not made for the intent to be a servant and do service. For god hath no need of our service but was in as full honour and as well served before the world began as he now is. So that his honour/ joy and service is hole in himself/ and is by us neither employed nor diminished. But the cause why he made man was this that man should have the fruition of his joy why man was made and honour. Soch was his goodness/ he made us not that he should have any pleasure by us/ but that we should have pleasure by him. The third lie is this/ that not nother creature here in earth doth service and honour unto god but only man. This is also a stark lie: for all creatures honour god thorough their creation & being/ for the hole glory of their creation redouneth in to the honour of god/ and what service can they do better than so to glorify god? Nay there yet lett●…th he them be idle but worketh tho row them mervelous things and all to his glory. Fire at his cōmaunde●…ēt came down from Gene. 19 heaven and burned ●…oodoma and Eomorra. Genesis. Exo. 14 nineteeen. was that no honour and service? he Mat. 8. made a strong ad burning wind to dry up and divide the read see Exodi. xiv. At his voice the wind and see were obedient and waxed call me Mat. viii. was this no honour and service? But a man may see that his wit was so purged in purgatory/ that he hath not one drop left to espy any truth at all. But yet let us see how he answereth the argument/ and severally examine every part. The first part was: that contrition or repentance is the very payment and satisfaction for Rastell. sum. To this he answereth/ that when thou takest repentance & askest mercy of god for thy ne offence: No man aught to be so foolish to think that god should be restrained or compelled/ but that it is at his liberty whether he will for give or no. I would be loath to move the man and ask 〈◊〉. him what repentance is? for surely as far as I can gether by his words he wott●…th nothing what it means. But I pray you see how substantially he answereth the argument It argueth that contrieyon or repentance is the very payment and satisfaction for sin. And to that answereth he neither ye nor nay/ for ●…eare of trapping (albeit the words are clean against scripture) But he answereth that when thou takest repentance and askest mercy of god for thy sin: no man aught to be so foolish to think that god should be constrained or compelled to forgive the. But for all that this is sure yvough that if repeutaunce be the very pay meant and satisfaction for sin (as the argument falsely supposeth) that god of his justice must needs forgive me when I repent. For than he●… we I hoellye paid him his and may require my right even by his justice. If thou object that god were then restrained and compelled/ I answer nay. But it were rather a great pleasure unto him to forgive all men if so they could make satisfaction unto his justice by repentance/ for he rejoiceth not in punishing us. Then Rastell. addeth Rastell that it is at his liberty alway to execute justice or mercy at his pleasure. To that I answer/ that he hath no pleasure to do against Frith. his scripture/ but therein hath he fully opened his pleasure. His pleasure is to forgive freely all them that believe in his son Christ jesus/ and to condemyne them that beleu●… not. If Rastell mean on this fashion then grant we him. But if h●… understand that god taketh his pleasure and liberty in ministering his mercy and justice/ so that he may condemn him which hath given the very payment & full satisfaction of sin (as it seameth he should mean feign he denieth not the first part of the argument) & again save him that believed not/ then will I say the Rastel runneth ryotte & taketh his own pleasure. For god hath no power against him silse & his scripture/ but look what he hath promised and that he will perform. And therefore in this eam Rastell prove no purgatory for all that he grondeth him on so many lies. But yet is it necessary that we declare unto you what is the very●… satisfaction for sin and then shall we see whether purgatory may st●…nde with it or not. Paul sayeth Hebre. x. that Christ with one oblation hath satisfied for our sins/ for we are hallowed (saith he) by the offering of the body Heb. 10. of Christ jesus which was once done (upon the cross) and with that one oblation hath he made them which are hallowed perfeyte for ever. Now if this be true that we are made perfey t●… by the oblation of his own body upon the cross/ then is purgatory in vain. For if he have so purged us/ what need we another purgation? If we be made perfect thorough him what need we after this life to be purged? If he have satisfied for us/ why seek we another satisfaction? why leave we the fountain of living water and seek our refreshing out of polluted pools and specially sith the heedspringe is so ready at hand? If we must make satisfaction unto god for our sins/ then would I know why Christ died? think you that his blood was shed in vain? This is no doubt/ if there were any other way unto the father than thorough Christ's blood/ whether purgatory or sacrfiices or what thou canst imagine/ then was his death not nenessarye. But alas what unkindness is that so to deject the precious blood of Christ and to set his gracious favour at naught? If there be any means by the which I may satisfy for my sins/ I need no redeemer nor yet any favour. But may call for my r●…ght and duty And so were there to need of Christ's blood mercy and favour. But what may be more blasphemous unto Christ's blood and his free redemption? Christ is able fully and for ever to save them that come unto god by him seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for us Hebre. seven. If he b●… able fully and for ●…uer to save us/ why run we from him and seek another purgatory? If he make intercession for us/ then is it like that he is no cruel stepfather towards us/ but rather that by all means he seaketh our health. Heb. 〈◊〉 why fly we from him that offereth himself so lo vinglye to us? why dare we not put our trust in him/ which when we were his enemies vouch safed to die for us/ and to so reconcile us unto his father. Rom. 5. Rom. 5. Now maketh he Comingo his almain to bring in an ensample/ and in confuting that he thinketh to win the field. But we will she we you that his similitude is nothing like in. But if he will imagine that it be like/ then doth he not confute it but maketh it stronger. The ensample is this: If I own the an C. li. of true debt/ and humbly desire the to forgive/ Rastell. discharge and pardon me and thou make me a clear release thereof then am I not bound to make y● any other payment or satisfaction. To prove that the similitude is naught/ and nothing like to the Frith. purpose/ is very easy. For the purpose and first part of the argument was this: that contrition or repentance is the very payment and satisfaction for sin. Therefore if he will have it like then must he suppose that this humble request of forgevenes/ discharge and pardon is the very payment and satisfaction for that. C. li. and therefore upon that should they first have agreed or else can the example serve for nothing. Now if he make them like and imagine that this humble desire of forgiveness is the very payment and satisfaction for that. C. li. then hath he made a rod for his own arse/ for he shall never be able to avoid it. But let us see his answer. In the case that you have put (sayeth Rastell) Rastell. if you desire me forgiveness of that. C. li. yet is it at my liberty and gentleness whether I will forgive the y● hole C. li. or else part thereof. Uvel ●…rith. hit Master Johan. If I should pay you that C. li. in good curraunte money were it yet in your liberty and gentleness whether you would forgive me a part or the hole thereof? truly I would be loath to be one of your debtoures/ if you be so hard to your creditors. Belike you have studied some cautel i the law. For I 〈◊〉. never hard but that if jowed you an. C. li. ad gave you the very payment and satisfaction the rof/ them should I be clean discharged whether you would ye or nay/ and neither need to thank your biberalite nor gentleness. But in your case 〈◊〉 the request and desire of forgiveness is and must be the very payment and satisfaction of that C. li. or else it is nothing like the argument/ so that you may put your similitude in your purse till another place and time where it shall 〈◊〉. better agree/ wherefore I must needs conclude/ that if I desire forgiveness (this standing that the said desire of forgevenes is the very payment and satisfaction of that C. li. (for else as I said it is nothing like) I am clean discharged and need neither to thank your liberality nor gentleness. Now where you object the recompensse for the loss of time and damages/ hurt and hind ●…aunce that you have had for the none payment of that C. li. and so forth/ that can not be applied unto god and the renussion of our sins. For there is no such loss of time/ damage/ hurt or hindrance towards god. For ●…e neither hurt nor hinder him although we never ask forge venesse but be dampened perpetually. So that it is our profit to ask it/ and our hurt and hindrance if we ask it not. If I owe a man xx. pound the longer I keep it the more is my profit & the more his loss: but god receiveth us young/ he receiveth us at man's state/ he receiveth us old/ and thinketh it no loss or hurt then to receive us/ for he sayeth by his prophet. The wickedness of the wicked shall not hurt him in what day so ever he turn from his ungodliness Ezechielis. xxxiij. But it should surely Eze. 33 hurt him if he should broil in purgatory for it. wherefore either there is no such pain full purgatory/ or else can not I see how the prophet/ which speaketh these words in the person of god/ should be true. I shall pour upon you clean water (saith Eze. 36 god the father) and you shallbe cleansed from all your iniquities Ezechie. xxxuj. If we be purged from all/ what need another purgatory? need we more purging when all are cleansed? I will surely convert juda and turn israhel unto me/ and I will purify them from Hiere. 33. all their iniquities wherewith they have offended me Hieremie. xxxiij. If he purify them from all/ what should they do in purgat●…rye? I willbe merciful unto their wickedness/ and their sins will I no more remember Hieremie. xxxj. Hebreo. viii. If he will not remember Hier. 31. our sins any more/ than may we be sure that he will not fry us in the fire of purgatory for our sins. NOw let us see his second argument which The second argument Rastel is in the fourth chapter/ and is surely fon de/ how be it his solution is yet more foolish. The some of his argument is this. Dan was made and ordained to have an in finite being/ therefore after this mortality and death he must have ifinite joy or infinite pain I will put you a like argument. A man is Fr●…th. ordained in this world to be a king or a subject therefore after he is born he is ever a king or ●…s ever a subject. Now may this be false/ for peradventure he may be born a subject and after made king or else he may be born a king and after deposed and made a subject. There fore this argument holdeth not formally. But it holdeth on this manner/ as I should say to an ape: thou must needs be an ape or an ass/ which now is true. But if I should say the very ☞ same words to Master johan Rastell/ I think he would be angry and say that it were false. And I suppose our scolemen will say that he lieth/ and put him an ensample of the en●…auntes that die with out christndome/ which (as the schoolmen say) shall never have joy nor pain. But I will grant him his argument to see how properly he will confute it. Now mark his answer which standeth in the. u chapter There are degrees in sins/ some sins are Rastell. great and some greater/ and therefore must there be degrees in punishment/ some punishment is great and some greater. 〈◊〉 for your plea azure I ●…m content to grant you this to But Frith. else were it a matter worthy disputation what now? 〈◊〉 that a man (saith Rastel) here in earth Rastell. hath committed a great sin and offence and taken repentance whereby the sin is forgiven (mark that he being ignorant of Christ/ saith thorough repentance the sin is forgiven) and yet hath not taken such sufficient repentance therefore/ nor had any sufficient punishment which should make a full payment and satisfaction for that sin/ and dieth before any condign or full satisfaction made/ god must then of his rightwiseness ordain a place of purgatory/ where his soul shall have a further punishment make a condign and full satis faction for that sin/ and so to be purged and purefyed before it shallbe able and worthy to be admitted to receive the eternal joy in heaven. First brethren you must grant/ that we Frith have a Christ or no Christ: a redeemer or no re●… mer: a iustefyer or no iustefyar. If there be none such (as Rastell with his turk Gingemin suppose) than all the repentance in the world could not satisfy for one sin/ but whosocuer committed a sin should be dampened therefore. So that Rastell speaketh and saith all in diminutives/ for where he should of truth spy hell/ there espieth he but purgatory. And where he should say that all sinners (if they stick not to Christ's blood) shall be dampened eternally/ there saith he that they shallbe punished in purgatory. And to be short/ if Rastell say truth them is Christ deed in vain: If he say not truth why stick you to his reason? But paraduentute thou that knowest Christ will't say (as many do) that Christ's death and redemption serveth the but for original sin/ or at most for those sins that thou committedst before baptism. To that I answer with. S. joan. Children/ this do I write unto you that you sin ne not. And if any man sin/ yet we have an ad vocate with the father/ jesus Christ/ which is rightwise. And he it is that obtaineth grace for our sins/ not for our sins only/ but also for the sins of all the world. To whom written. S. joan. this epistle? Think you that he 1. joan. 2. written not unto the christian and them that were all ready baptised? And yet he said if any man sin/ we have an advocate with the father/ jesus Christ which is rightwys●…: and he it is that obtaineth grace for our sins. Loo he adnumbreth him 〈◊〉 also: for he sayeth we have an ad vocate: and sayeth again/ for our sins. ●…e may see that he means not only original sin ne/ neither yet the sins done before baptism: for I doubt not but he was baptised when he written this pistle/ and yet said he: if we sin (meaning after baptism or when so ever it be) we have an advocate with the father/ Jesus' Christ/ this is. S. Joan'S learning: he known no nother remedy if we fell in to sin/ but only Christ. Not withstanding our prelate's have pactized further/ for they say: if any man sin he shall lie in the pains of purgatory/ until he be delivered thence by mass pennies/ the pope's pardon or certain other suffragyes/ but not with out Money you may be sure. Christ saith (no man cometh unto the father Jo●…. 13 but thorough me johan. xiii. for (sayeth he) I am the way. yes lord/ our prelate's have espied another way/ which although it be more pain full unto the poor/ yet is it more profitable for the prelate's. Come unto me all you that labour and are laden and I will ease you saith our saviour Mat. 11 Christ jesu. Matthei. xi. will't thou send us lord in to purgatory? forsooth there is little ease/ if the fire be so hot as our prelate's have feigned it. It is even I that put out thine iniquities for mine own sake saith god the father/ and Esa●…e. 43. thy sins will I no more remember Estate. 〈◊〉. Ergo then he putteth them not a way for broiling in purgatory. He addeth also that he will no more remember our sins: call you that no remembrance to cast us in to purgatory for them? ●…hom god predestinated/ them he called/ and whom he called/ them he iustefyed: and what did Rom. 8. he with them then? Did he cast them in to purgatory there to be cleansed? forsooth the apostle maketh no mention thereof/ but addeth/ whom he iustefyed them he glorefyed Romano. vii●…. wherefore let not us put such obstacles and be v●…kinde unto the gracious favour of god. Besides that Paul forbiddeth us to be careful for them that sleep (that is to say for the deed) as they that have no hope. But surely if he had known of any purgatory/ he would have been careful for them/ sith they fain them 1. Thes. 4 in such miserable torments. Now seeing he had occasion to make mention of the deed/ and spoke not one word of purgatory/ it is playve enough that he known nothing of it or else was he very negligent to overhippe it. But yet had I liefer say that purgatory were but a fantasy of man's imagination/ then to ascribe such forgetfulness or negligence unto that Apostle. ☜ The third reason that Rastell allegeth is in The third argument the. vi. chapter/ that sum is this. There are degrees of joy in heaven/ and degrees of pain in hell. And therefore god may pass every man and give him according to his desert/ other more or less and never need purgatory. well letus grant these degrees for rastel's pleasure although the question be so disputable that I am sure he can not defend it. what followeth on this? forsooth he bringeth in proper exem bless if they could serve for the purpose. But let us pass over to his solution which is in the end of the seventh chapter. When a man sayeth Rastell is infected with Rastell a great mortal sin and so depart/ then his soul aught not to do service in heaven unto god because it is putrefied with that foul sin. But if that man had taken the medicine of full repentance in his life/ that medicine would have restored him again to his soul health and virtue (But here you must remember that chryst Frith is deed in ●…ayne/ for if repentance be the medy cyne that restoreth again the health and virtue of the soul/ what needeth Christ) Now forth But if he have taken (sayeth Rastell) some repentance Rastell for that sin and not sufficient/ and had not sufficient time to make sufficient satisfaction therefore/ yet by the taking of that medicine of repentance/ that sin is expelled and go/ and the soul of that sickness and sin is clearly hole/ but yet the spots and tokens of the sin which is a deformity to the soul do slily remain till the soul have a time to be purged from those tokens and spots to make it pure and clean of that deformity. Frith This man is ever in one supposition which is both false and injurious unto the precious blood of Christ. I wonder who taught him that conclusion/ and why he granteth so soon unto it/ for he would not have it granted that there were a god/ neither that the soul was immortal (although they were both true) until he had proved it (as he thought himself) by good natural reason. But as for this that is stark false (that is to say) that repentaunc●… while he excludeth chryst/ doth satisfy for our sin/ he never putteth in question/ but granteth it by and buy/ be like the turckes have such an opinion. But let him go with his turk/ and let us christian men grant nothing contrary to the scripture/ but ever captivate our reason unto that/ for it is the infallible reason and wisdom of god/ and passeth our reason farre●… THe fourth reason is propounded in the The fourth argument viii. chapter. which is this/ that the soul unpurged may do some mean and low service to god in heaven/ though it be not the highest Ephe. 5. and best. which thing is false and against scripture. Ephe. 5. Cant. 4. But let us see what Canti. 4●… answer he maketh unto it. His answer beginneth Rastell in the. ix. chapter/ and the sum is this Heaven is so pure and clean of nature. that it must expel all manner of impuryte and uncleanness/ neither can it suffer any thing therein/ that is of any manner uncleanness or evil/ or other thing unpleasant. So now it followeth that when a man hath committed a mortal sin & after taketh repentafice by that which he is healed of that foulè infi●…nite (See how he harpeth all of one string which is also so far out of tune that I wonder how any man can a bide him. For if I can heal mine infirmity thorough repentance wherefore died chryst? Rastell But yet (sayeth he) the spots and tokens remain for lack of full satisfaction. Frith I answer that it remaineth every whit/ sin/ spots/ tokens/ and all together except christ had taken it from of us/ thorough his 〈◊〉 and bitter passion. Therefore saith Ramires stell) god of his justice may not condemn Rastell his soul to eternal pain in hell for that offence which is purged and put aways. wher●… with is it pnrged and put a way? There is no remission of sin without Frith. 21. blood. Hebre. 9 If there be no remission with out blood/ what shall repentance do where the blood of christ is excluded? ye or what Hebre. 9 shall thy purgatory do/ for there is no blood shed. So is there nothing that taketh away sin but only the blood of christ jesus/ shed for our redemption And yet saith Rastell) god by his justice and by his discrete wisdom and goodness aught Rastell not immediately to receive/ that soul in to that clean and most pure place in heaven to accompany the pure angels. &c. Not mary Frith I warrant thee/ be not afraid of that for neither Gyngemyn thy companion nor thou neither shall enter in there/ either immediately or medyatlye/ if you exclude christ as you have done hitherto/ no not if you had taken all the repentance in the world/ and would thereto ima gyne a●… many purgatories as will pesen in to a monks coul●… But it is chryst the lamb of god that taketh away the sin of the world. joan. 1. It is he that hath purged our sin 〈◊〉 now sitteth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. on the right hand of the father Hebrew./ Heb. 1 It is he that hath purged our sin and hath made us in his own sight and in the sight of his father/ with out spot or wrinkle Ephesio. j Ephe. 1 Albina be it in our own sight we find our selves 1. joan. 1. sinners. j Joannis. j But he maketh Roma. 4. us blessed and rightwise and imputeth not our sins unto us Romanorum. iiij. Then what needeth purgatory? ☜ THe fift argument that he bringeth against The fift argument Rastell purgatory is touched in his tenth chapter/ the sum is this. It should seem convenient that this purgatory (if there were one) should be in earth: partly because the bodyewhich offendeth with the soul might be purged with the soul: and partly●… to be a good ensample to all men living to put them in fear to do any like offence/ and so should 'cause many to abstain from committing any such like offence and sin ne/ or else where should purgatory be? This reason hath no great pith. notwithstanding Frith. if it were well prosecuted/ it would be to hard for Rastell to avoid it. For this is no formal argument/ it is meet that the body which offendeth with the soul should be purged with the soul/ ergo purgatory must be upon the earth. For god may join the body and soule together again after they be departed and so punish them together although purgatory were not in earth/ even where so ever it be. And therefore thus me thinketh it should well follow. The body was follow and partner with the soul in committing the crime and sin/ and shall also be partaker of the glory which is prepared for them that love god. wherefore it is reason if the soul should be purged and punished in purgatory: that the body should also suffer with him in purgatory: fain that place of purgatory where you will/ in heaven/ in earth or in hell But wot you what Rastell would here say unto me? for south even as he did in the first chapitre of the third dialogue. that is to say: he would stoutly affirm that the body suffereth nother well nor woe/ joy nor pain/ good nor evil/ and therefore it needeth not go to purgatory. And by that reason it is folly that the body should go either to heaven or hell. for it neither feeleth pleasure nor pain. this is new learning in deed. But I think there is no Christian man so foolish as to believe him. And as for the second point that it should be a good ensample to put men in fear for committing such trespasses/ it were soon answer read For we aught not to abstain from evil be cause of the punishment that followeth the crime but only for the love that we have unto god with out any respect either of salvation or of damnation. If thou abstain for fear/ so art thou under the law and under condemnation: The law of god and the law of man are far unlike. for the law of man is fulfilled by the exterior act although the heart be far from it. As if I own a man. xx. pound and be compelled by the law to pay him at a certain day: if I them pay it albeit mine heart be ne ver so grugginge and evil willing/ yet have I fulfilled the law so that there shall no process or sentence pass against me. But god's law requireth a thing to be done with a well willing heart/ and even for pure love. for if thou do it for fear or unwillingly that shall be imputed unto the for sine. If thou do it for fear/ them workest thou not of love/ but rather hatest both the thing that thou dost/ and also the law that constraineth the unto it. And if thou do it unwillingly then willest thou to do the contrary/ and so wouldest thou that there were no such lafoy we neither yet any god that should judge the in so doing. And sith god judgeth the after thine heart & will/ then must he needs condemn the. for thou willest contrary unto his law and will: ye and willest in thine heart contrary to that thou dost in thine out ward deed. Now let us see his solution which is in the xi. chapter and so foolish/ that if it were not for the great length of the chapter/ for loss of time and for the more cost in prentinge/ I would surely have answered unto it at length/ even that he should have been ashamed of himself. But to be short we will touch some of his words. The first part of the argument which he intendeth to answer to is this: that it should seem convenient that purgatory should be here on earth because the body which offendeth with the soul should be purged with the soul This reason is of no value as I have showed you before. But what sayeth Rastell●… That reason (saith Rastell) proveth not on Rastelss 〈◊〉 lution lie that there is no purgatory/ but also that there should be neither heaucn nor hell. for if a man have lived so virtuously in earth/ that he aught to be saved and go to the joys of heaven (let us pardon him this lie, for the prophet saith that no man shall be iustefyed in the sight of god if he enter in to judgement with Psal. 14 〈◊〉 us psalm, 143) And yet did never meritorious art but only when the soul was joined with the body/ them should he never be rewarded but here in earth while his soul is joined with the body. Here may you perceive what Rastell 〈◊〉. thinketh of heaven and hell/ even thus that that body shall never come in heaven nor hell/ which point I will touch more largely a none. first where Comingo in his argument saith/ that it should seam convenient for purgatory to be upon earth there sayeth Rastell that he would take away the liberty/ prerogative/ and authority of god. As by example/ if I would say/ It should seam convenient that the bishop of londons palace should be in london/ partiye because it is the chiefest city of his diocese/ and partly because it is nigh the court whereto he may the better resort to get further promotion/ there would Rastell say by and by that I took away the bishops liberty/ prerogative/ and authority that he might not set it where he would. belike this man hath drunk of a merry cup. He aftermeth Rastell 〈◊〉 also that this argument taketh away both heaven and hell. why so? Because he supposeth it convenient that purgatory should be here up 'pon earth? 〈◊〉 it he say it is convenient/ yet sayeth he not that it must needs 〈◊〉. Nay/ but there is another thing that Rastels sore eyes can not abide. what is that? verily for he added that it were most convenient that the body which is partaker in committing that crime/ should also be purged & punished with the soul. And that as you know plucketh Rastell by that beard/ for he went a bout to prove that contrary in the first chapter/ that the body hath neither pain nor pleasure. &c. But how should this take away heaven and hell? for south on this manner. Rastell thinketh not that god can and will join the body again with that soul after this transitory life that they may together receive joy or pain for that passeth his natural philosophy. But thus he imagineth/ when the body and soul are once departed/ then say they adieu for ever and adaye. Therefore (thinketh he) if god will punish them in hell together/ or save them together in heaven/ then must he take them whiles they are here living in earth. And so this supposition that the body must suffer with the soul (after Rastel's learning) must prove that heaven and hell be here in earth or else there can be none. See this learned man that would prove purgatory by ● good phylosophye●… The second cause/ that purgatory should be a good example to the living to put them in fear to do any like offence/ is not soluted of Rastell/ but I have soluted it before and will yet satisfy you again because Rastell leaveth it out. we have here in the world/ Moses and the prophets that is the old testament/ ye and all so christ and his apostles which we call the new testament/ now if we believe not these/ then shall we not surely believe although we had purgatory and hell to among us. And this may well be gathered of Christ's own words luce. xuj. 〈◊〉. 16. where he brought in the parable of the rich man and lazarus/ for the rich man being in pains desired Abraham to sand lazarus unto his five brethren to warn them that they might not come in to that fire: Abraham answered again/ that they had/ Moses & the prophets. And added/ let them hear them. Then said the tych man Nay father Abraham/ but if any of them that are departed appear unto them/ then will they believe it. And Abraham concludeth on this manner: If they believe not Moses and the prophets/ no more will they believe if any of the deed should rise again. And therefore may I like wise conclude That if they believe not/ neither yet fear the pains which Moses and the prophets/ you and christ 〈◊〉 his apostles have prophesied to fall on the unfaithful/ them will they not believe for fear of the pains of purgatory. Now to the last point where purgatory Rastell should be/ he answereth as you shall hear. First that it is a foolish question (for he can not answer unto it by his philosophy) And th●… he saith that no man can tell/ neither the place neither Frith yet the manner of the pain. Here maketh he. S. Thomas ye and all our scolemen fools by craft: partly because they take upon them to answer unto this question which he calleth foolish/ and partly because they fully determe that the place of purgatory is the third place in hell/ and also assign fire to be the manner of the pain. And again in this last part he proveth them double fools. Once because they affirm that thing which no man can tell (as Rastell sayeth) And again because they restrain god of his lib ertye that assign any place and make him of less authority than an in ferior judge/ which hath no place assigned him/ but ma●…e do execution and punish the gytlye in what place he will. I wonder that our scolemen may abide this fellow. And then he saith that purgatory is in a Rastell place limitatyve. And where so ever god doth limit the soul to be purged there is the 〈◊〉 we place of that soul and there is the purgato●… of that soul. So that a man may gather 〈◊〉 Rastell that the souls be not limited to one place to be purged and punished. And thereto agreeth also his similitude of the judge which assigneth one to be punished in one place/ and 〈◊〉 nother in another place/ even at his pleasure. If such gear had come from beyond the see it should soon have been condemned although it had not been half so grievous against our scolemen. But let this pass as it is well worthy/ 〈◊〉 let us see and examine more of this new-fangled philosophy. NOw are we comen unto the sixte argument which beginneth in the. 〈◊〉. chapter/ the effect is this Bepentaunte is the full payment and satisfaction Rastel's sixt argument of sin and bringeth remission/ therefore as soon as repentance is taken/ god of his justice must give temission/ and so there aught to be no purgatory. This argument is nothing worth/ for the Frith. first part as we have often proved is false For if repentance were the full payment and very sa tisfaction for sin/ then died Christ in vain. notwithstanding if he grant this first part to be true/ neither he nor all his follows shall be able to solute this argument while they live. But because we will be short/ let us pass over to his answer which is in the. xiii. chap. In solutinge this argument he groundeth Rastell. him on two lies at once/ the first is y● god never geveth remission except he see in us a convenient cause countrepaysinge his justice. What cause found he in y● man that was brought Frith unto him sick of the palsaye/ to whom he said: Mat. 〈◊〉. be of good comfort (son) thy sins are forgiven y●? Mat. ix. Mar. two. Luc. v. what cause foun de he in the thief that was crucified with him/ but that he had been anunthrifte all his life long? And yet even the same day that he suffered with Christ was he partaker of joy with him in paradise Lu. xxiii. where was purgatory then 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉 where was the punishment that he should have suffered for his enormities? If any man should suffer in purgatory/ it is like that this these should have done it: But he went from death to life 〈◊〉 came in purgatory/ wherefore I may 〈◊〉 that no man shall come there/ if there were any. What cause I pray you doth Paul assign as touching out redemption & remission of our imne? for south no nother but that we were m●…tched sinners & the very enemies of god 〈◊〉. u For saith paul/ if when we were his enemies we were 〈◊〉 unto god thorough the death of 〈◊〉 his son/ much more now we are reconciled/ shall we be saved by his life. So that in us is no manner 〈◊〉 of remission but only misery and sins But the hole cause of the remission of our sin sins ●…d of our saluaeyon/ is the blood of 〈◊〉 which hath fully 〈◊〉 the justice of god the father/ and hath pacefyed his wrath towards us that believe. He is the very purgatory for all faithful which hath already purged ou 〈◊〉. 1. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sitteth on the right hand of the father Heb. I The second lie is this/ he saith that god Rastell of his justice must give to every thing his awe ne/ which own is the thing that it deserveth to have. If this were true then should not one of 〈◊〉. us enter the inheritance of heaven/ for we have 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. every one of us deserved death and damnation. For as Paul sayeth Romanorum. iii we have 〈◊〉 sinned and want the glory which before god is allowed. But we are freely iustefyed thorough his grace by the faith that is in thirst jesu. If it be freely thorough his grace/ then is it not 〈◊〉 our own deserving/ for then grace were no grace. And contrary wise if it be by our own deserving/ then is it not of grace/ for then deserving were no deserving Romanorum. Rom. 11 xi. But the truth is this/ that god of his mercy had promised unto our forefathers his dear son Christ that he should deliver them from all their iniquities and that all the nations of the world should be blessed in him Gen twelve. This seed he promised of his mercy and fa Gene. 12 voure/ whom also he sent in the time that he Gala. 4 had ordained Galata. 4. not for our own deservinges/ but for his truths sake and to fulfil that he had promised. This Christ is become our 1. Cor. 1 righteousness. 1. Corin. 1. so that that justice of god is not to give us that we ourselves have deserved (as Rastell lieth) but to cloth us with another man's justice (that is Christ's) and to give us that which christ hath deserved for us And this justice of god thorough the faith of jesus cometh unto all and upon all them that believe Roma. iii Now mark a 〈◊〉. Rom. 3 Christ humbled himself & was made obedient unto the death: even to the death of the cross Phi. Phil. 2 two. This obedience and death was not for 2. Cor. 〈◊〉 himself but for us/ for he alone suffered and died for us all. two. Corin. u Now sith he was obedient unto the death for us/ that is even as good as though we ourselves had been obedient ever rye man for himself unto the death. And sith he died for us/ that is even as god as though we had died ourselves for our own sins. 〈◊〉 will't thou have more of a man than that he be obedient unto god the father evenunto death/ ye & die for his sins/ will't thou yet thrust him in to purgatory? 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 bringeth hein an answer which is so confused/ intricate & long that it were not only foolishness to solute it/ but also much lost labour & cost to ●…herse it/ wherefore I let it pass/ for every child shall easily solute it sith his ●…undacion and first stone is taken from him. But yet one thing is necessary to be touched. He goeth about to prove his purpose with an ensample on this manner. If I do beat thy servant or apprentisse & 〈◊〉. do maim him/ whereby thou dost lose his service: and also that this servant during his li●…e is not able to get his living. If so be that thou do forgive me y● offence done unto the in that thou hast lost his service: yet am I bound to make another satisfaction unto thy servant for y● hurt I have done him/ which is y● cause of y● hindrance of his living. And in like manner if I have offended god & my neighbour/ ●…lbeit god forgive me his deal/ yet can he not of justice forgive me my neighbours d●…ale to/ but yet must I make satisfaction unto my neigh bower. Now in case I would & be not able to satisfy my neighbour/ & yet he forgive me not/ then must I suffer in y● pains of purgatory for it: and those pains shall stand my neighbour in profit for part of his purgatory if he come there or else to y● increase of his joy if he go to heaven. This is the sum/ but he speaketh it in many more words. Now because he hath touched the matter of satisfa●…ion I will show you my mind therein. ●…rith. There are two manner of satisfactions. The Satisfac●…ō to god one is to god: the t'other to my neighbour. To god can not all the world make satisfaction for one crime. In so much that if every grass of the ground were a man/ even as holy as ever was Paul or Peter & should pray unto god all their lives long for one crime/ yet could they not make satisfaction for it. But it is only the blood of Christ that hath made full satisfaction unto god for all such crimes Hebre. seven. or cls were there no remedy but we should all perish: as I have proved before. And he that seeketh any other satisfaction Hebreo. 〈◊〉 towards god then Christ our saviour/ he doth wrong unto his precious blood. There is another satisfaction which is unto Satisfa●…cion to my neighbour my neighbour whom I have offend●…d. As if I have taken any man's god from him. For then am I bound to pacify him other by restoring it again or else by other means as we two can agree. If I have defamed him/ then am I bound to pacify him/ & to restore him unto his good fame again/ & so forth. But if I be not able to satisfy him/ then must I knowledge myself guilty & desire him to forgive me/ & then is he bound to forgive me/ or else shall he never enter in to heaven. For god hath taught us to pray. Mat. uj. that he should forgive us/ as we forgive them Mat. 6. that trespass against us/ so that if we forgive not one another then will not god forgive us. To this Mat. 18 well agreeth the parable Mat. xviij. The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a certain king which would take accounts of his servants And when he had begun to reckon one was brought unto him/ which aught him ten thousand talentes: but when he had naught to pay the lord commanded him to be sold/ & his wife & his children/ & all that he had/ & payment to be made. The servant fallen down & besought him sa yenge: Sir give me respite/ & I will pay it every whit. Then had the lord pity on the servant & loosed him & forgave him the debt. The same servant went out & found one of his fellows/ which aught him an. C. pennies. And laid hands on him & took him by the throat/ saying pay that thou owest. And his fellow fallen dou ne & besought him saying: have patience with me & I will pay that all: & he would not/ but went & cast him in to preson till he should pay the debt. When his other fellows saw what was done they were very sorry and came & told unto their lord all that had happened. Then the lord call led him & said unto him. O evil servaunte/ I forgave that all that debt/ because thou praydest me: was it not meet also that thou shouldest have had compassion on thy fellow/ even as I had pity on thee? And his lord was wroth and delivered him to the gaolers/ till he should pay all that was due to him. So like wise shall your hevenlye father do unto you if you will not forgive with your hartes●…ech one to his brother their trespasses. Here mayest thou see that if you forgive ha●… rely the small debt or offence that thy neighbour hath done against thee/ then will thy hevenlye father forgive thee/ the hold & great debt that thou owest him/ for the which thou art well worthy to be damned. And so is it more profitable for y● to forgive it than that thy neighbour should broil in purgatory for it/ as Rastell feigneth. And contrary wise if thou forgive him not/ then shall not god forgive the thy great debt/ but thou shalt surely be dampened/ & so shall not thy neigh bowers purgatory profit y● (be it in case there were one and that he should go thither) but it is rather the cause of thy damnation: but this can not Rastell se. NOw be we come unto the seventh reason Rastel's seventh argu meant which is in the. xiv. chap. The argument is this. God is y● very owner of all/ and thy neighbour hath no property/ but as a servant to god/ as but to make account to god. Therefore when thou dost an offence to god & to thy neigh bower/ when god forgeveth it thou needest no nother satisfaction unto thy neighbour And to sta blish his reason he bringeth in a similitude which is nothing to the purpose. The similitude is this I put case thou have a servant whom thou puttest in trust to occupy for y●/ to make bargains change & cell to thy use/ to take bonds & again to make aquitaunces & relese i his own name. If this servant cell part of thy ware & take an obligation for the payment of. xx. pound/ if thou afterward knowing of this/ either for love or some other cause w●…lt make unto the said debtor a clear release: I suppose no man will deny but that this debtor is fully discharged of this. xx. pound/ and is not bound by any justice to make any satiffaction either unto thy servant or to any other man. For thou art the ve●…ye owner thereof/ and thy servant had but the occupation as to give the accounts thereof. This similitude can not well be applied unto Frith. god & man. For albe it is true that all our Agge●…. ●…. substance pertaineth unto god at it is written Agg. ij. gold is mine & silver is mine: yet hath not god given it us to occupy it for his profit & use (as the servaunte doth for his master) but only that we should use his gifts for the profit of our neigh bower & to the use of the congregation. 1. Co. 12. And 2. Co●…. 12 where as he induceth that when god forgeveth us which is the principal part/ that thou needest no nother satisfaction to thy neighbour. I answer/ that god forgeveth no man which hath offended his neighbour/ vulesse that he make satisfaction unto his neigboure/ if he be able but if he be not able/ yet is he bound to knowledge his fault unto his neighbour/ & then is his neighbour bound und the pain of damnation to forgive him/ so that god 〈◊〉 forgeveth until thy neighbour be pacefyed in case the crime extend unto thy neigh bower This soluteth both the reason & also improveth the similitude. Now let us declare his solution Rastell. 〈◊〉 so 〈◊〉. God of himself hath two powers: One is an absolute power/ & another is an ordinary power. The absolute power is the authority y● god hath over all thing in y● world, by y● he may give to every creature what pleaseth him/ & also forgive every offence done by any creature at his pleasure with out any cause. And by this may he forgive both y● crime done towards himself/ & also towards my neighbour. But by his ordinary power he doth every thing by order of justice and equity. And by this can he not forgive the offence done to him and my neighbour with out satisfaction. Now would I fain weet/ whether Rastell 〈◊〉. imagine that god by his absolute power may save God's the unfaithful & damn the faithful If he say absolute power. Nay/ them may I conclude the rastel's definition is false where he sayeth: that god by his absolute power may give to every creature what pleaseth him/ & also forgive every offence done by any creature at his pleasure with out any cause. If he say ye/ them must I conclude that god hath power to do contrary to his scripture/ for the scripture sayeth: that he that beleveth and is baptised shallbe saved/ but he that beleveth not shallbe condemned 〈◊〉. 16. Mar. xuj. Now if he grant me that he hath power to do against his scripture (sith his scripture is the truth & his own word/ them must it needs follow that he hath power to do against his truth: & consequently he hath power to be fal●…/ & so to sin. And sith he hath power against his own word/ and that word his son/ the●… must we grant him power against his son/ & ven to make him a liar where he said the forsayed texts Marci. xuj. And sith his son is god/ then hath god power to do against god and Mat. 12. so can not his kingdom endure. Matthei. xii. Furthermore/ if I might be bold with Ramires stell/ I would ask him this question/ whether god have not an absolute justice as well as an abso lute power? If god have also an absolute justice/ then whete●… can not his absolute power prevail unto his absolute justice be fully countrepaysed. god have an absolute iustice●… And so is it false that Rastell beginneth with all/ that god by his absolute power may forgive every offence at his pleasure with out any cause. For (as I said) his absolute justice must needs be satisfied & fully countrepaysed. If Rastell dare say that god hath an absolute power & no absolute justice/ then taketh he his pleasure in deed. For if he make one nocionall in god greater than another (by this word nocionall which the schoolmen use/ I would you should understand: the goodness/ wisdom/ power/ justice & mercy of god & 〈◊〉.) then shall he make a dissension in god & imagine that one nocionall subdueth another. ye and besides y●/ sith each one of these nocionalles is very god (for the power of god is nothing but god himself/ & the justice of god is nothing but god himself/ & so forth of all the other) them if his power were greater than his justice/ it should follow that god were greater than god/ & consequently we should have a great god & a little god & more gods than one/ such revel maketh Rastel with his turk. But the christian believe that one power of god is no greater than another and that his power is not above his justice/ neither his justice above his mercy &c. And so may you see that rastel's imagination of gods absolute power is but very childish and unsaverye. For he hath no power against his scripture and himself. Thus 〈◊〉 his seven reasons with their solutions But yet that his work should long endure all tempests and storms/ he addeth a batelment ●…d wether stone to avoid and shoot of the ray ne/ for tear it should so●…e in and make his decay. And therewith concludeth his book To believe/ sayeth he/ that there were no purgatory 〈◊〉 to purge and punish our sins after we be departed/ should put avaye that dread of god from the most part of y● people and give them boldness to commit offences & sins. And again/ if the people should believe that they never need to make any satisfaction nor restitution to their nèyghboures for the wrongs done unto them/ they should never force nor care what 〈◊〉/ 〈◊〉/ thefts/ robberies and murders they did. finally if they believed that such a light repentance should be sufficient with out any other satisfaction to be made/ it should be an occasion to destroy all virtue and increase vice and sin to the utter destruction of the comen wealth & quiet living of the people. And thus he maketh an 〈◊〉 As to the first where he sayeth that it would 〈◊〉 put away the dread of god and give boldness to sin/ if we thought there were no purgatory/ we se and may evidently perceive the contrary all day both in young and old of them that believe there is a purgatory. The young sa you I will take my pleasure while I may. and if I may have but one hou●…es respite to cry god mercy/ I care not. for than shall I go but to purgatory and so shall I be sure to be saved. The old say: I will keep my goods as long as I may for I wot not what nead I shall have. But when I die I will cry god mercy/ and than shall I go but to purgatory/ and mine executors that have my goods shall redeem me thence well enough. And so to believe purgatory/ is rather an occasion of reckless boldenesse●… then of the fear of god. Besides that if they knews that there were no purgatory/ them 〈◊〉 de many the more fear god & do well them selves & not trust to their executoures for fear of damnation/ how be it as I have said before they that fear not god but for pain whether it be of hell or purgatory are yet under condemnation and not in god's favour. And this dare I bold lie affirm/ that they which fear not god but for purgatories sake shall never come in it/ no nor yet in heaven. And therefore it is but folly to imagine purgatory for that intent. As concerning the second point. If the people 〈◊〉 believed that they needed not to make satisfaction to their neighbours for their trespasses &c I have sufficiently answered before/ that we must make satisfaction unto our neighbours if we be able or else will god never forgive us. And if we be not able/ yet must we knowledge our offence and then is our neighbour bound to forgive us under the pain of damnation. And so can this prove no purgatory Now as touching that third/ that if they believed that such a light repentance were sufficient with out any other satisfaction/ it should be an occasion of vice & subversion of the comen wealth: I answer/ as I have done before all most in every argument: sith thou art ignorant of Christ's death and his satisfaction unto the father for us/ that all the repentance which we can take is not sufficient to countrepayse one crime/ but that if Christ were not we should albe dampened. Here will I leave Rastell & his turk Gingemin with all thyce natural philosophy (which is now proved foolishness) for hitherto hath he proved no purgatory/ neither hath he one good reason nor yet to that varen reasons one good solution/ as we have sufficiently declared. But let us hear 〈◊〉 what more of god's word: and see how purgatory standeth with that. Paul sayeth/ we must all be brought before the judgement seat of christ/ that every man may receive according to the works of his body/ whether it be good or bad. 2. Cor. 5. if this be true/ then can there be no purgatory 〈◊〉. Cor. 5. which shall profit him after he is dissolved from his body/ for than should he not receive according to the works of his body. But rather according to the pains that he suffered in purgatory. Now if this text be true then must it follow that all thine executoures dealing/ and offering of massepences. etc. help the not a mite. And by this text it is not possible that there should be a purgatory. Upon this text would I fain dispute a point of sophistry/ which I would gladly have dissolved of them that think themselves learned in philosophy. My sophism is/ the two contradictories may stand together and be Contrady 〈◊〉 both true. which I am sure no sophystre dare grant/ for it hath in times past been condemned in oxford foran●…eresie. The contradictories are these. Every man shall receive according to the works of his body. And some man shall not receive according to the works of his body/ that these two contradictories be both true I will prove. The first proposition is paul's 2. Cor. 5. which no man will deny to be true. And the second may easily be proved true/ which is/ that some man shall not receive according to the works of his body. For be y●… in case that there depart a man out of this world the which is not clean purged by faith and the word of god neither hath his rebellious members subdued thorough death (as they imagine) but that the spots and remnants of sin remain in him for the which he is worthy to lie in the pains of purgatory for the space of six year This granted/ which I am sure they will not deny/ then also put I the case that this man lying in purgatory by the space of a month/ have a friend which offereth for him a penny unto. S. dominikes box (which hath such power that assoon as the tinging is hard in the box so soon the soul is free in heaven) or that a friend of his buy a pardon for him which may absolve him a pena & a culpa for all cometh to one effect. This man delivered on that manner doth not receive according to the works of his body for by the works of his body he should yet lie in purgatory more then. u year? And that doth he not/ but is by and by delivered from purgatory. Ergo I may conclude that some man receiveth not according to the works of his body/ and so are two contradictories true or else there can be no such deliverance out of purgatory/ which destroyeth all pardons/ massepences and suffragyes for the deed. This would I have soluted. How be it I will not adnumbre it for an argument because the unlearned people (unto whom I write this book) can not well perceive it. But this sophism have I written to stop the chattering mouths of the sophy sters and to cast them a bone to gnaw upon. Paul sayeth/ you which were in times past strangers and enemies because your mine des were set in evil works hath he now reconciled in the body of his flesh thorough death to make you holy and such as no man can complain on/ andwyth out fault in his own sight if you continued grounded and stablished in the fayeth/ and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel. Collo. 1. Here paul affermeth that you are reconciled thorough his death/ so that you are made holy and with out fault in his sygh●… (I have expounded what it is to be with out faut●… in his sight in my sixte argument) look you yet for another purgatory? are you so childish and insensible to imagine that you must yet go thorough purgatory/ sith you are all ready with out fault in his sight? This is a plain case/ god of his rightwiseness will not punish a man for nothing: but all that are grounded and stablished in that fayeth are in his sight with out fault (for their sins are not imputed unto them but forgiven thorough Chri stes blood) wherefore of necessity I must conclude that no faithful shall ever come there. 〈◊〉 very man that departeth this world is either faithful or unfaithful if he be faithful then cometh he not there/ as the foresaid argument proveth. And if he be unfaithful them cometh he never in purgatory/ but is all ready dampened Joan. 3. Marce the last. Now if neither faithful nor unfaithful enter in to it then should it be in vain: but there is nothing made in vain wherefore I must conclude that there is no such purgatory. Paul says be the spared not his own son but delivered him for us all/ how shall he not with him give us all things also? who shall say any Ro. thing to the charge of gods choose? Ro, 8. Forsooth lord god our prelate's lay so sore unto their charge/ that they would have them broil in purgatory. But lord be our protector for it is thou that iustefyest us/ and hast freely given us all thing with him. Ro. 8. Paul saith the law of the spirit/ wherein is life thorough christ jesus hath delivered m●… from the law of sin & death. Roma. 8. seeing we beso delivered what nead us seek another deliverance Ro. 8. specially sith they make it so painful? seeing we are on that manner delivered/ h●…w chanceth it that we áre taken prisoners again under sin/ that we must be purged a fresh by the fire of purgatory? I pray god give us grace that we may be purged from this our blind ignorance thorough his spirit of knowledge/ that we may perceive how it is jesus Christ that purgeth our sins and hath delivered us thorough his bloudesheding. So should we give him the praise which hath deserved it. And not be so unkind unto him as we now be. Paul sayeth that there is no condemnation to them which are in christ Iesu Roma. viii. But if we continued firm and Ro. 8. stable in christ unto the end than shall we be Ma. 24. saved Mathe. xxiiii. what needeth then purgatory? ye and what should purgatory do? Is not christ sufficient? Then is our faith eth in vain. And if he be sufficient/ then is gurgatorye in vain. Paul saseth if you be justified by the law then is christ deed in vain. Now if the law being good just and holy. Ro. 7. And even of god-den own making can not justify us/ thinkest thou Roma. 7. to be justified by frying in purgatory? ●…hey that are the chief patrons and proctors of purgatory/ do feign it for no nother intent/ But to purge evil works/ and to be as a penance to supply the good works which we lacked being in this world. But all this can not bring us in to heaven: For than were christ deed in vaync. And of this have we evident examples/ Abraham/ Isaac/ jacob/ David and all holy propher●…s were excluded from until christ had suffered death/ this all m●… testify. But if good works or penance could have brought them to heaven they should not have tarried out of it so long. Therefore I may conclude that it is but vanity to imagine a purgatory for to purge evil works and supply good. For as I have showed/ the holp not the patriarchs. Peradventure thou will't say unto me/ shall 〈◊〉 Good works I then do no good works? I answer yes. Thou will't ask me wherefore? I answer/ thou must do them because god hath commanded them Thou will't say/ for what intent hath he commanded them? I answer/ because thou art living in this world and must needs have conversation with men/ therefore hath god appointed the what thou shalt do to the profyt●… of they neighbour and taming of thy flesh As paul testifieth. Eph. 2 we are his work Ephc. 2. made in christ jesus unto good works/ which works god hath prepared that we should walk in them. These works god would have us do that the unfaithful might see the godly and virtuous conversation of his faithful and thereby be compelled to glorefie our father which is in heaven. Mat. 5. And so are they both profitable Mat. 5. for thy neighbour and also a testimony unto the by the which men may know that thou art the right son of thy heavenly father and a very chryst unto the neighbour: and even as our heavenly father gave his christ v●… to us not for any profit that he shalde have thereby/ but only for our profit/ likewise thou shouldest do all thy good works not having respect what commodities thou shalt have of it/ but ever attending thorough charity/ the wealth and profit of thy neighbour. Thou wilt yet object/ them see I no great profit that I shall have by them: I answer/ what wouldest thou have? first Christ is given the freely and with him hast thou all things. He is thy wisdom/ rightwiseness/ hallowing and redemption. 1. Cor. 1. 1. Cor. 1. by him art thou made inheritor of god/ and Roma. 8. felowheyer with christ. Roma. 8. This is freely given the with christ before thou wast born thorough the favour and election of god which election was done before the fundations of the world were cast. Ephe. 1 Now were thou very Ephe. 1 fond and unkind if thou thoughtest to put chase by thy works the thing which is already given the. Therefore must thou do thy works with a single yeah/ having neither respect unto the joys of heaven/ neither yet to the pains of hell/ but only do them for the profit of thy neigh bower as god commandeth y●/ and let him alone with the resydue●… ●…o this well agreeth paul. Eph. 2. saying/ by grace are you made safe thorough faith/ and that cometh not of yourselves/ but it is the gift of god and cometh not of works jest any man Ephe. 〈◊〉. should boast himself. Loo here sayeth paul plainly that our salvation is the gift of god 〈◊〉 cometh not of works/ if it come not of then are we worse than mad to fain a purgatory. For the chiefest operation of that should be but to supply the works which we have not accomplished being in this bodye●… Paul sayeth. Roma. xi. The remnant 〈◊〉. II which are left at this time/ be thorough the election of grace. If it be thorough grace than is it not by works/ for them grace were no grace. Or if it be for the works sake/ so is it not of favours and grace/ according to that which 〈◊〉. 4. he written before. Roma. 4. If abraham (sayeth paul) were iustylyed by his works/ then may he rejoice but not before god. But what sayeth the scripture: Abraham belcued god and that was unputed unto him for rightwiseness/ for he that worketh reccaveth his reward not of savour but of duty. Now if it be duty/ then ne death he not to thank god/ but rather himself for then god giveth him nothing but that which is his own of duty. Where is then the praise and glory that we own to god? Therefore it followeth in the same text: unto him that worketh not/ but believeth in him that iustefieth the wicked/ is his faith imputed ●…or rightwiseness. Now if our salvation come of faith and not thorough our works & deserts/ th●… is purgato rye shut out of door & quite vanisheth awaye●… Christ sayeth. So hath god loved the world 〈◊〉. 3. that he would give his only son that all which beieve in him should not perish: but that they should have everlasting life. joan. 3. Then what needeth purgatori●… Thou will't paraduen turesay/ it is true they shall have everlastige life but they must first go thorough purgatory. I an swear/ nay verily. But christ affirmeth & that with an oath/ that he which heareth his word & beleveth his father which sent him/ hath everlasting life. ye & that he is go already from death unto life. joan. 5. wilt thou now say that he shall in to purgatory? for south if that were true/ and the fire also so hot as our prelate's of joan. 5. firm/ then went he not from death unto life/ but rather from a small death unto a greater death. The prophet sayeth: precious is in the sight of the lord the death of his saints. Psal. 116. Psal. 116. And. S. joan. sayeth/ blessed are the deed which Apoca. 14 die in the lord. Apo. 14. but surely if they should go in to the painful purgatory/ there to be tormented of fendes/ them were they not blessed/ but rather wretched. God sayeth by Moses Exodi. 33. I will show mercy to whom I show mercy/ and will have Edodi. 33. compassion on whom I have compassion. Now ifoure salvation be of mercy and compassion than can there be no such purgatory. For the nature of mercy is to forgive/ but purgatory will have all paid and satis●…yed so that they twain be desperate and can in no wise agree. And look how many texts in scripture commend god's mercy/ even so many deny this painful purgatory. The prophet sayeth/ he hath not dealt with us after our sins neither hath rewarded us according to our iniquities/ but look how high heavens are above the earth/ even so Psal. 103. high hath he made his mercy to prevail over them that worshuppe him. And look how far the east is from the west/ even so far hath he set our sins from us. Psal. 103. And before 〈◊〉 the same psalm/ the prophet exhorteth his soul to praise the lord/ saying. Praise the lord (oh my soul) which forgiveth that all thine iniquities and heals all thy diseases. Now if this be true that he ordoreth us not according to our sins/ but poureth his mercy so plentu ●…uslic upon us/ if also he forgive us all our in●… quityes/ why should there be any such purgatory to purge and torment the silly soul's/ and speeyallye sith all was forgiven them before? will't thou not call him a shrewed creditou ●…e which after he hath freely forgiven his de●… tour/ will yet cast him in preson for the same debt? I think every man would say on this manner/ It was in his own pleasure whether he would forgive it or not/ and then of favour and compassion he forgave it. But now he hath forgiven it he doth unryghtwyslye to punish his debtor for it. And all be it man repent his forgeving and afterward sue for his debt/ yet god can never repent himself 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. of his merciable gifts. Roma. xi. And therefore will he u●…uer torment us for our trespasses 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. no nor yet once remember them Ezechyelis. 18. Hebre. 10. ●…yth god forgiveth the greater offences why shall he not also forgive the less? He forgave freely much greater offences unto 〈◊〉. 〈◊〉. the publican which knowledged himself to be a sinner. Luce. 18/ then those be for which men fain that we must be tourmented in purgatory. For there is no soul (as they grant themselves) that suffereth in purgatory for great crimes and mortal sins. But only for little preatye peccadu tyans (if a man may be boolde to use Master Moor's word) and for venial sins. Dis. 25. Cap. qualis. He forgave much greater enormities unto the thief/ to whom he said this day shalt thou be with me/ not in purgato Luce. 23. rye/ but in paradise Luc. twenty-three. He forgave much Luce. 7. greater unto mary Mawdelene. Luce. seven. Is his hand now shortened? Is not his power as great as it was? Is he not as merciful as ever he was? why leave we the cistern of lyvinge water/ and dig us pits of our own which can hold no pure water? Hieremie. two. why forsake we Christ which hath hoellye purged us an seek another purgatory of our own imagination? If thou believe that Christ's blood is sufficient to purge thy sin/ why seekest thou another purgatory? S. Paul sayeth: I desire to be loosed from this body and to be with Christ Phil. 1. verily Phil. ●…. if he had thought to have go thorough purgatory he would not have been so hasty. For there should he have had an hot broth & an heart less/ and so might he rather have desired long to have lived. And therefore I suppose that he known nothing of purgatory but that he rather thought (as the truth is) that death should finish all his evylles and sorrows and give him rest in loosing him from his rebellious members which were sold and capty ve under sin. All christian men should desire death as Pau ●…ow a christ man should desire death 〈◊〉 doth Phililp. 1. not because of their cross & trouble which they suffer in this present world for then they sought themselves and their own profit and not the glory of god. But if we will well desire death/ we must first consider how sore sin displeaseth god our father/ and than our own nature and frailty and our membres so bound under sin that we can not do 2. Cor. 3. nor yet think a good thought of ourselves. 2. Cor. 3. Then shall we find occasion to lament our life/ not for the troubles that we suffer in it/ but because we be so prove unto sin and so continually displease god our father. what desireth he that would long live/ but daily to heap sin upon sin? And therefore should we have a will to die because that in death our sin ne 〈◊〉/ and than we shall no more displease god our father. Now if we should fain a purgatory/ it were not possible to imagine a greater obstacle to make us fear and fly from 〈◊〉. For sith every man must knowledge himself a 〈◊〉. 1. Joan. 1. And not believe that Christ's death were sufficient/ but that he must also 1. Jo. 1. go to purgatory: who should depart this world with a quiet mind? The wiseman sayeth: The souls of the right wise are in the hand of god. They seamed to die in the eyes of the foolish & their end was thought to be pain and affliction/ but they are in peace sapiency. iij. There is no man but he must needs 〈◊〉. 3 grant me that every faithful is right widow 〈◊〉. ●…. see in the sight of god as it is written Abacuc. ij. the Rom. 5 right wiseman liveth by his faith. And Rom. u because we are justified by faith/ we are at peace with god thorough our lord jesus Christ. &c. when these faithful or rightwise depart/ then saith this text that they are fools which think them to be in pain or affliction: for it affermeth that they are in peace. Now sith their purgatory which they imagine is pain and affliction/ and yet fain that the rightwise only shall enter in to it after their death/ them are they fools that suppose there is a purgatory/ or el●… ●…his text can not be true. Hor what intent will god have us tourmented in purgatory/ to make satisfaction for our sins? verily then is Christ deed in vain as we have often proved before. But think you not rather that our purgation should be to increase our faith/ or grace/ or charity (for these three cover the multitude of sins) no verily we can not fain a purgatory for any such cause. For faith springeth by hearing of the word. Romano. 10. but the pope sendeth them no Rom. 10 preachers thither/ ergo their faith can not there be increased. And again/ pain engendereth and kendleth ●…ate against god and not love or charity. Furthermore. My lord of Rochestre is compelled to grant that the souls in purgatory 〈◊〉 obtain there neither more faith nor grace More and my lord of Rochestr●… can not ●…gre nor charity than they brought in with them/ and so can I see no reasonable cause why there should be a purgatory. Nevertheless Master Moore sayeth/ that both their grace and charity is increased. And so may you perceive that lies can never agree how witty so ever they be that fain and cloak them For in some points they shall be found contrary so that at the length they may be disclosed. God is fully pacefyed with thy will when thou hast no power to accomplish the outward Pro. 23 fact. For the wiseman sayeth proverb. twenty-three. son give me thy heart. Now if thy will be upright and so that thou have a desire to fulfil the law/ then doth god reckon y● will unto the for the full fact. If then thorough the frailty of thy members thou fall in to sin/ thou mayst well say with the apostle Romanorum. seven. The good that I would do/ that do I not: that is/ I have a will and Rom. 7 desire to fulfil the law of god/ and not to displease my hevenlye father/ yet that I do not. But the evil which I hate/ that do I/ that is I do commit sin which in dead I hate. Now if I hate the sin which I do/ then love I the law of god which forbiddeth sin/ and do consent unto this law that it is good right wise & holy. And so the sin which I hate and yet commit it thorough the frailty of my membres/ is not iputed nor reckoned unto me for sin. Ney there will S. Paul grant that it is I which do that sin/ but he said: I have a will to do good/ but I can not perform that will. For I do not that good which I would/ but the evil which I would not that do I Now if I do that thing which I would not do/ then is it not I that do it but the sin that dwelleth with in me. I delight in the law of god with mine inward man (that is with my will and mind which is renewed with the spirit of god) but I see another law in my membres which rebelleth against the law of my mind and maketh me bond unto the law of sin which is in my membres. So that I myself in my will and mind do obey the law of god (hating sin as the law commandeth me and not consenting unto it in my mind and will) but in my flesh and membres I serve the law of sin/ for the fraylt●…e of my membres compelleth me to sin Rom. 7. As by example if I see a poor man which is not of ability to do me any pleasure/ and nevertheless doth all his diligence to seek my favour and would with har●…e and mind give me some acceptable present if he were of power being also sorry that he can not perform his will and mind towards me. Now if there be any point of humanity or gentleness in me/ I will count this man for my friend/ and accept his good will as well/ as though he had in the ad performed his will. For his ability extendeth no further. If his power were better/ better should I have. Even so sith we are not of power and ability to perform the law of god/ & yet bear a good heart towards god and his law/ lamenting our imbecility that we can do him no further pleasure: than will god recount us not as his enemies/ but as his dear children and beloved friends. Neither will he after ward thrust us in to purgatory/ but as a tender father pardon us our trespasses/ and accept our good will for the full deed. S. Paul exhorteth us Gal. uj. that we work work well while we have time/ for what so ever a Gala. 6. man doth so we that shall h●… reap/ by this may we evidently preceave that he shall not 〈◊〉 according to his doing or suffering in another world/ and therefore can there be no purgatory. The wiseman sayeth Eccle. xiv. work righteousness before thy death for after this life there is no meet/ that is to say succour to be found. Eccle. 14. There are some which will understand this place and also the text in the. xlviij. argument on this manner that there should be no place of deserving/ but yet there may well a be a place of punishment. But this solution besides that it is not ground●…d on scripture/ is ver●…e 〈◊〉. For I pray you wherefore should their inven 〈◊〉 of purgatory serve but to be a place of purging/ punishment/ and penance/ by the which the soul should make satisfaction/ that it might so deserve to enter in to the rest of heaven? Blessed are the deed which die in the lord from hence forward/ ye truly saith the spirit/ that they may rest from their labours. But their works follow with them. This text they use in their soulemasses as though it made for 〈◊〉. 14 purgatory. But surely me thinketh that it maketh much against them. For let us inquire of all the 〈◊〉 and fautors of purgatory/ wh●… there the souls that must be prayed for/ be departed in the lord or not? And they must needs answer that thy are departed in the lord/ for the unfaithful which die not in the lord must not be prayed for. And therefore must they be upright Christian souls which are toutmented/ for the other are all dampened. Now says the text that all such deed as die in the lord are blessed: but what blessedness were that to broil in purgatory? And if they would here fain a gloss (as their manner is when they are in a straight ever to seek a starttinge hole) and say that they are blessed because they are in a good hope/ although they have not yet the rest/ but must suf●…er before in purgatory: that evasion will not ●…his text suffer/ for the text saith that they rest and are in peace as Esaias also sayeth in the .〈◊〉 Esa. 57 that the rightwise (and every faithful man is rightwise in the sight of god as we have often proved before) when he departeth rests in peace Sapi. 3 as in a bed. And sapiency. iij. it is said that the rightwise souls are in peace: And so is it not possible that there should be such a painful purgatory. Thus have we confuted Rastell: both his are gumentes and also solutions/ for all that he writeth is false and against scripture. Furthermore/ we have brought in to prove that there can be no such purgatory. l. arguments all grounded on scripture. And if need were a man might a thousand of which our clergy should not be able to avoid on? Here I think some men will wonder that I have the scripture so full on my side because that there are certain men/ as my lord of Rochestre and Sir Thomas Moore/ which by scripture go about to prove purgatory: & this is sure that scripture is not contrary unto itself. Therefore it is necessary that we examine the texts which they bring in for their purpose/ marking the process both what goeth before and what cometh after. And then shall we easily perceive the truth/ and how these two men have been pituouslye deceived. First I will answer unto Master Moore which hath in a manner nothing but that h●… took out of my lord of Rochestre/ although he handle it more suttellye. And what so ever is not answered in this part/ shallbe touched and fully convinced in the third/ which shall be a several book against my lord of Rochestre. ☜ ¶ Thus endeth the first book. ¶ The second book which is an answer unto Sir Thomas Moore. ☜ MAster More beginneth with the M. More silly souls of purgatory and maketh them to wail and lament/ that they hear the wor●… de wax so faint in the faith of christ that any man should ne ade now to prove purgatory to christian men/ or that any man could be found which would in so great a thing so fully and fastly believed for an undoubted article this. xv. hundred year/ begin now to staggar and stand in doubt & 〈◊〉. ●…erelye me thinketh it a foul fault so sore 〈◊〉 to stumble even at the first. It were a greate blot t●… for him/ if he should be compelled by good authority to cut of. iiij. hundred of his foresaid numbered Now if we can not only prove that he must cut of that. iiij. hundred year/ but also bring witness that it was neither at that time believed for an article of the faith nor yet for an undoubted truth: then I think you would sup pose this man sum what out of the way. And that will I prove by god's grace. S. augustine was. iiij. hundred year after Christ. And yet in his time was it not fully and fastly believed for an article of the faith/ no nor yet fully and fastly believed to be true For he himself writeth in his enchiridion on this manner speaking of purgatory: After he expounded the place of Paule. 1. Corin. 3. and had taken this word fire not 〈◊〉. Cori. 3. for purgatory/ but for temptation and tribulation/ he added these words in y●. 69. chapter. It is not incredible that such a thing should also chance after this life/ and whether it be so or not it may be questioned 〈◊〉. Of these words may we well perceive that he counted it not for an article of the faith neither yet for an undoubted truth for if it had been an article of the faith/ or an undoubted truth: then would he not have said/ potest etiam queri/ that is to sa you it may be questioned/ doubted or moved: for those holy fathers used not to make questions and doubts in articles of the faith among themselves/ neither yet in such things as were undoubted true. They used not to dispute whether Christ died for our sins and rose again Roma. 4. for our justification/ but only believed it. Be sides that the occasion why he written the book entitled enchiridton was this. There was one Laurencius a christian man which instantly required of. Sain. austin that he would write him a form of his belief which he might continually vere in his hand and where unto he should stick. Upon this written him. S. Austyne this little book/ where in he commandeth him not fully and fastly to believe (these are Master Moor's words) that there was a purgatory: buth said that it may be questioned/ doubted or moved whether there be such a place or not. Of this have we plain evidence that it was none article of the faith in. S. Austin's time (which was. iiij. hundred year after Christ) neither yet undoubted truth. And so may all men see that master Moore is sore deceived and set on the sonde even at the first brunt and in the beginning of his voyage. His second reason that he hath to prove M. more purgatory is this: The very miscreauntes and idolatres/ Turks/ Saracenes and paynims have ever for the most part thought and believed that after the bodies are deceased: the souls of such as were neither deedlye dampened wretches for ever/ nor on the other side/ so good 〈◊〉 that their offences done in this world have deserved more punishment than they had suffered and sustained there/ were purged and punished by pain aster the death/ ere ever they were admit●…ed unto their wealth & rest. And so must there needs be a purgatory. I answer/ if it were lawful to require wisdom Frith. in a man so wise as Master Moore is counted/ here would I wish him a little more wit. for I think there is no wiseman that will grant this to be a good argument/ the Turks/ Saracenes/ paynims & jews believe it to be true/ ergo we must believe that it is true: for I will show you a like argument. The Turks/ Saracenes/ paynims and jews believe that we have not the right Christ/ but that we are all dampened which believe in Christ. Is it therefore true? shall we turn our faith because they believe that we be deceived? I think there is no man so foolish as to grant him this. But if Master More will have his reason hold/ he must argue on this man●…r: The 〈◊〉 and infidels before named believe that there is a purgatory & their believe is true/ therefore we must believe that there is a purgatory. Now soloweth this argu meant sum what more formally. Here might I put him to the proof of his minor/ which is/ that their belief (in believing purgatory) is true: which thing he shall never be able to prove. But I have such confidence of the truth on my side 〈◊〉 I will take upon me to prove the negative/ Even that their belief is not true as 〈◊〉 purgatory. for these miscreauntes which 〈◊〉 purgatory (believe not that there is a purgatory for us that be Christian: for they believe that we are fallen from all truth & ●…tterlye 〈◊〉. But they think that there is a purgatory for themselves wherein they shallbe purged and punished until they have made full satisfaction for their sins committed: but that is false/ for neither Turks/ Saracenes paynims nor jew is which believe not in Christ have or ever shall enter in to any purgatory/ but they are all damned wretches because they bel●…ue not in ●…esu Christ. joan. 3 Now sith they be deceived/ for joan. 3. they have no purgatory/ but are all dampened as many as believe not/ Alas what blindness is that to argue that we must follow them which are both blind and out of the right way? After this disputeth he by natural reason that there must be a purgatory, his disputation continueth a leffe and an half/ out of the which Ra 〈◊〉 took all his book And so are all his apparent reasons disclosed before against Rastell. Then beginneth he with the scripture/ on this manner IT seemeth very probable & likely that y● M. More good king Ezechias for no nother cause Ezechias wept at the warning of his death given him by the prophet/ but only for the fear of purgatory. &c. The story is written. 4. Reg. 2. And. isaiah. 38 Ezechias was sick unto the death. And isaiah the prophet & son of Amos came unto him saying/ this sayeth the lord/ dispose thy house for thou Frith. shalt die/ and not lie ve. he turned his face unto 4. Regum. 2 the wall and prayed the lord saying/ I beseech Isaiah. 〈◊〉. the lord/ remember I pray thee/ how I have walked before the in the truth and in a perfect heart/ and have done that thing which is pleasant and acceptable before the. Then Ezechias wept with great crying. these are the words of the text. we can not perceive by the text that he was a great sinner/ but rather the contrary. for he sayeth that he hath walked before the lord in truth and in a perfect heart/ and hath done that thing which is pleasant and acceptable before the lord. And therefore it is nothing like that he should fear purgatory neither yet hell. Thou will't A question to Master More peradventure ask me/ if he wept not for fear of purgatory/ why did he then weep? I will also ask you a question/ and than will I show you my mind. Christ did not only weep/ but feared so sore that he sweat like drops of blood 〈◊〉 down upon the earth/ which was more than to weep. Now if I should ask you why Christ feared and sweat so sore: what would you answer me? that it was for fear of the pains of purgatory? forsooth he that would so answer should be laughed to scorn of all the world/ as he were well worthy. wherefore was it them? verily even for fear of death/ as it play nlye appeareth after: for he prayed unto his father Math. 26 saying: my father if it be possible let this death ●…asie fro me. Mat. 26. so fearful a thing is death even unto the most purest flesh. And even the same cause will I assign in Ezechias that he wept for fear of death/ and not for purgatory. Now proceedeth he further and promises to prove it by plain evident texts/ as it is very needful. for the text that he alleged before is sum what to far wrested and yet will it not serve him Have you not (saith he) the words of scripture M. More written in the book of the kings/ dominus deducit ad inferos er reducit: Our lord bringeth folk down in to●…hell/ and bringeth them thence again? But they that be in that where the dampened souls be/ they be never delivered thence again. wherefore it appareth well that they whom god delivereth and bringeth thence again/ be in that part of hell that is called purgatory. ●…hys text is written in the first book of the Frith kings and in the two. chapter/ and they are the 1. Re. 2. words of Anna which sayeth: The lord doth kill and quicken again: he leadeth down in to hell and bringeth again. Here he thinketh to have good hold. But surely his hold will fail him/ for in this one text he showeth himself twice ignorant. First because he knoweth not that the Hebrew word/ sheol/ doth not signify hell/ but a grave or pit that is digged. As it is written geneses. 42. Si quid adversitatis acciderit Gene. 42. ei in terra ad quam pergitis/ deducetis canos meos cum dolore ad iferos/ that is/ If any evil chance unto my son benjamin in the land whether you go/ you shall bring down mine hoar hea●…es with sorrow unto my grave/ not unto hell nor yet unto purgatory/ for he thought neither to go to hell nor purgatory for his son/ but thought that he should die for sorrow if his son had any mischance. Besides that he is clean ignorant of the comen manner of all prophets which for the most part in all psalms/ hymns and other songs of praise (as this is) make the first end of the verse to ex pound the last and the last to expound the first. He that observeth this rule shall understand very much in the scripture although he be ignorant in the Hebrew. So doth this place full well expound itself with out any imagination of pugato 〈◊〉. Confer the first part of the verse unto the last and you shall easily perceive it. The first part of the half verse is this. The lord doth vylle/ and that expoundeth the other half of this verse where she sayeth/ he leadeth down to hell/ so that in this place to kill and to lead down to hell is all one thing. And likewise in the second part of the half verse/ to quyc●…en again and bring agayneiss all one thing. Now it any man be so superstitious that he dare not understand this thing as fyguratelie spo 〈◊〉/ then may he verefye it upon them that god raised from natural death as he did lazatum Io. 11. joan. xi. And albe it no man can deny but that this sense is good and that the text may so be unto/ yet in my mind we shall go more nigh unto the very and pure truth/ if we expound it thus. The lord doth kill and quicken again/ he leadeth down to hell and bringeth again: that is/ he bringeth men in to extreme affliction and misery (which is signified by death and hell) and after turneth his face unto them and maketh them to follow him. And to this well agreeth the. 78. psalm that speaketh of the 〈◊〉. 78. children of Israel (which figure his elect church and congregation) Their years passed over in perpetual trouble/ when he destroyed 〈◊〉 killed them/ then they sought him/ they turned and besought him beselye. He means not here that he had f●…rst killed them by temporal death and after their death made them to seek him: but that he had wropped them in extreme afflictions and perpetual troubles/ and that he sore scourged them when they broke his commandments and yet after turned his merciful face unto them. 〈◊〉/ if you will have the pure vndersto●… ●…inge of this place/ note the words of y●. 3. children dani. 3. which were cast in to the furnace of fire Dani. 1. and yet preserved from death thorough the mighty have the of god/ their words and song was this: Benedicite anania/ azaria/ misael domino/ laudate et superexaltate eum in secula: quia eruit nos de inferno/ & saluos fecit de manu mortis/ & libera vit nos de medio arden's flame/ et de medio ignis eruit nos. That is: bliss you anania/ azaria/ and misael the lord: praise and advance him for ever. For he hath plucked us out of hell/ & hath saved us from the power of death. He hath delivered us from the mids of the burning flame/ and hath plucked us out from the mids of the fire. Here may you see the same manner of speaking and how the last end expoundeth the beginning. These children say that god hath plucked them out of hell/ and yet were they neither dampened nor in purgatory nor deed. But the next part of this verse expoundeth their meaning which sayeth he hath saved us from the hand or power of death. So may you know that to be plucked out of hell/ and to be saved from the power of death/ are all one thing. And again where they say that god hath delyvered them from the burning flame/ & that he hath plucked them from that mids of y● fire/ is all one sense as every child may well perceive: and therefore is M. Moore to blame to be so busy seeing he understandeth not the phrase & manner of speech of the scripture. THen brigeth he in the prophet zachary why M Moore zacharye which sayeth. Tu quoqz i sanguine testamenti tui eduxisti victos tuos de lacu i quo non erat aqua. Thou hast in y● blood of thy testament brought out thy bound prisoners out of y● pit or lake i which there was no water. Now in hell is there no redemption/ and in limbo patrum the soule●… were in rest? wherefore it appeareth clearly that those prisoners which he brought out of their pain/ he brought only out of purgatory This text is spoken zachary. 9 for a full an 〈◊〉 swear of this text I needed no more but to bring 〈◊〉. 9 the authority of my lord of Rochestre against him. For he expoundeth the place of the spalme ●…sal. 66 66. for purgatory/ which sayeth. 〈◊〉 per ignem et aquam et 〈◊〉 nos in refrigerium we have go thorough fire and water and thou hast brought us in to colonesse: If this text of the 〈◊〉 serve for purgatory which sayeth that there is both fire and water/ as my lord of Rochestre doth affirm and bringeth also orygene to confirm it/ then can not this place of zachary serve/ which sayeth that there is no water. And so must Master More More ●…d 〈◊〉 can not a 〈◊〉 needs be overseen/ for Orygene and Rochestre be able to way up him. Here might I say unto them both that they should first agree with in themselves and then would I shape them an answer. How be it I know my part so sure that I will confute them both/ and prove that neither nother place speaketh any thing of this painful purgatory that they describe. But My lord of Rochester's authority shallbe dyfferred until the third part which shallbe a several book against him. ●…his place verily approveth not purgatory but showeth the virtue of Christ's redemption which thorough his blood redeemed his captives 〈◊〉 prisoners that is to say then whom he found bound ☞ with the strong bonds of sin unto everlastige damnation which were subjects unto the 〈◊〉 and the extreme enemies of god/ but why calleth h●… them his? verily because they were choose in christ jesus before the beginning of the world/ that they with him and thorough him should enjoy the everlasting inheritance of heaven. 〈◊〉 are they called bound and prisoners? Surely because they were captyves/ bound and imprisoned under the devil thorough the sin that ●…dā Rom. ●…. committed Romano. u Why sayeth he that he delivered them out of the pit where in is no water? Forsooth that is even as much to say/ as he delivered them out of hell & from eternal damnation. Thou will't happily say/ he delive read them not out of hell and from eternal damnation/ for his prisoners that is to say/ they that shallbe saved never came there. I answer/ that they should with out doubt have go thither and have been damned perpetually/ except that christ by his death had delivered and loosed them And therefore saith the scripture that Christ d●… lie vereth us out of hell/ because he saveth and delyvereth us that we come not there/ which else should surely enter into it for ever. It is also a comen manner of speech among us/ if a man should go to prison for debt or any such matter/ and one of his friends come in the mean season which pacefyeth the adversaries and payeth that debt/ then may we well say/ that he hath delivered this man out of prison although he came not there/ but should have go thither. And 〈◊〉 wise when we say that such a man hath delivered his friend from the gallows/ we mean not that he was all ready hanged/ for then we●… the deliverance to late/ but we mean that he delivered him that he should not be hanged. Furthermore if a man might be bold to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 question 〈◊〉 master More Master Moore whether Christ have redeemed/ loosed and delivered him in the blood of his testament? I think he would answer y●…ee. Now if we should ask him further/ from whence he hath delivered him? I am sure he is not so ignorant as to say that christ hath delivered him from purgatory/ but even that he hath delivered him from eternal death and damnation. And so hath Christ velyvered us from the pit wherein is no water/ that is to say/ from hell & everlasting damnation/ not that we were in hell all ready (although we were bound under sin and ready to be cast therein but because we should not enter in to hell. This is the pure understanding of the te●…te. Here might I dispute with him both of hell and of limbus patrum but because I will be as short as possible is/ I will defer that until another occasion/ that I may●… reason with him somewhat at large. ANother place is there also in the old testa 〈◊〉. Moore. meant that putteth purgatory quite out of question. For (sayeth he) what is plainer than the places which in the book of the Maccabees Macha●… 〈◊〉. made mention of the devout remembrance/ prayoure/ almose & sacrifice to be done for souls/ when the good and holy man judas Machabeus gathered money among the people to buy sacrifice with all to be offered up for the souls of them that were deed in the battle. What shift find they here? Surely a very shameless shift and are 〈◊〉 to take them to that taklinge which is their shoteanker alway/ when they find the storm so great that they see their ship goeth all to wrack. For first they ●…se to set some false gloss unto the text/ and if that help not/ then fall they to a shameless boldness/ and let not to deny the scripture and all. The place which he reciteth is written. 2. Machabeo Frith. . 12. And to say the truth/ the book is not 2. Ma. 12. of 〈◊〉 authority to make an article of our faith: neither is it admitted in the canon of the hebrews. Here he objecteth that the church hath ●…lowed it/ and the holy doctoures/ as. S. Hiero me. S. Austin and such other. I answer. S. Hieromes mind is opened unto us by the pistle which he written before the proverbs of So lomon/ his words are these. Sicut judith et Toby et Machabeorum libros/ ligit qui●… eo●… ecclesia/ sed inter canonicas scripturas non reci pit/ sic et hec duo volumina legate ad edificationem plebis/ non ad authoritat●…m ecclesiasticorum dogmatum confirmandum. That is/ like as the church doth read the books of judith/ Thobias/ and the Maccabees/ but receiveth them not among the canonical scriptures/ even so let it read these two books (he means the book of sapience and ecclesiasticus) unto the edifying of the people/ and not to confirm the doctrine of the church thereby. And it is nothing like that ☜ S. austin should dissent from. S. Hierom/ for they were both in one time/ ye and S. Hierom out lived. S. austin. And therefore the church could not admit any such books either before. S. Austin's time or in his time/ but that. S. Hierom should have known of it. And so may you gather that if. S. austin ●…lowe these books/ or else say that the church hath allowed them/ you may not understand that they have allowed and received them as canonical scriptures/ for than you make. S. Hierom a 〈◊〉. But thus you must vndersto●…de it/ that they have received them to be read for the edifying o●… the people/ and not to confirm the doctrine of the church or articles of the faith thereby according to. S. Hieroms' exposition. Now may●… you see that our sheet-anchor (as he calleth it) is so strong that all his storms and waves can not once move it/ for we deny not but that the book is received of the church to be read and weshewe by. S. Jerome for what enten●… it is received and read/ not to prove any article of our faith thereby/ but only to order our manner of living thereafter in such points as are not repugnant unto the canonical scripture. But yet for this once/ to do the man pleasure we will let slip our sheet-anchor and take the seas with him. And for all their furious win des and frothy waves/ we will never strick sail/ so strong is our ship and so well belanced Be it in case that this book of the Macabees were of as god authority as isaiah yet can he not prove this fiery and painful purgatory ther●…ye. For it speaketh not one word neither of fire nor pain/ but it speaketh of a sacrifice offered for the deed that they might be loosed from their sins/ because there is a resurrection of the deed/ which may well be with out any pain or fire. So that this conclusion is very ba●… and naked: It is good to offer sacrifice for the deed that they may be loosed from their sins/ ergo there is a sensible fire which doth punish the holy and choose people of god. I am sure there is no child/ but he may perceive that this argument is naught. Besides that it is to be doubted whether judas did well or not in offerings this sacrifice. And therefore oug●…t we not of a foolish presumption to follow his fact until we know how it was accepted. Parad venture thou will't say that the deed is commended in the said text/ where it sayeth: But because he considered that they which with godliness had entered their sleep (that is their death) had good favour laid up in store for them/ therefore is the remen brance to pray for the deed hoiye and ho●…esome/ that they may be loosed from their sins. I answer/ that the persons which were slain in the battle for whom this prayer and sacrifice was made/ were found to have under their cloaks oblations of idols which were at jamniam/ and for that cause were they slain as it is plain in the text/ ye and all the host praised the right judgement of god. Now these men that were so slain were dampened by the law. Deutero. 7. which sayeth. The images of Deut. 7 their gods thou shalt burn with fire/ and se that thou covette not the silver or gold that is on them nor take it unto the jest thou be snared therewith/ for it is an abomination unto the lord thy god. Bring not therefore the abomination unto thy house jest thou be a dampened thing as it is: But utterly defy it and abhor it for it is a thing that must be destroyed. Of this may we evidently perceive/ that albe al●…e 〈◊〉 did this thing of a good mind/ yet was he deceived/ for his sacrifice could nothing help them sith they were dampened by the law/ and entered not their sleep with godliness as he supposed. Huthermore/ it is evident that the jews 〈◊〉 sacrifices for the sins of them that lived Leuitici 4 5 6. 〈◊〉. But how known they that though see sacrifices should extend●… themselves unto the sins of the deed? And they were commanded under the pain of cursing that they should add nothing unto the word of god Deuter. 12. 〈◊〉. 12. verily it is like that the priests even at that time sought their own profit/ abused thesa ☞ 〈◊〉: fyces/ and deceived the simple people. Master Moore also sayeth/ that the money was sent to buy sacrifices which should beoffered for the sin of the slain. Now knoweth every christian that all manner of sacrifices and offerings were nothing but figures of Christ which should be offered for the sin of his people. So that when Christ came/ all sacrifices and oblations ceased. If thou shouldest now offer a calf to purge thy sin/ thou were no doubt injurious unto the blood of Christ/ for if thou thought his blood sufficient/ then wouldest thou not seek another sacrifice for thy sin. ye I will go further with you there was not one sacrifice in the old testament that purged or took away sin. For the blood of oxen or goats can not take away sin Hebreorum. x. 〈◊〉. 10 But all the sacrifices which were then offered/ ☞ did but signify that Christ should come and be made a sacrifice for us/ which should purge our sin for ever. Now were their sacrifices and oblations institute of god and yet could they not take away sin: But only signified that Christ thorough his blood should take it away/ what madness then is come in to our brains that we think that our oblations which are ordained but of our own imagination should take away sin? what if judas gathered such an offering in the old testament/ should it then follow that we must do so to/ which know that Christ is to me and that all oblations are ceased in him? shall we become jews and go back again to the shadow and ceremony sith we have the body and signification which is Christ jesus? Be it that judas were a holy man/ might he not yet do amiss? Be it in case that he did well/ shall we therefore straight ways out of his work ground an article of our faith? David was an holy man and yet committed ●…e both murder and adultery shall we with out further enserchinge the scriptures straight ways follow his example? 〈◊〉 was an holy man and was commanded of god to offer his own son/ shall we offer our children therefore? Goe dion and josua destroyed the unfaithful kings and princes and did well and were praised of god. Must we do so to? And wherefore shall we more follow the example of Iud●…s then of the other? Shall I tell you why? verily for this example of judas bringeth money unto our spiritualty. These. xii. thousand drachmas shine so bright in their eyes/ that with out other candle lantren or spectacles they have espied an article of our faith. you may not con sidre that they have taken this text of. xii. thou sand drachmas for a pistle in soul masses/ for than parad venture you might fall in to some sh●…ewed suspection/ that they should do it of covetousness/ which fault 〈◊〉 be espied in ou●…e spiritualty/ as you know well enough. He that holdeth any ceremony of the law as necessary/ is bound to keep and fulfil the hole law. This is evident of Paul. Gala. 6. where Gala. 6. he sayeth/ If you be circumcised/ then are you de●… towers to fulfil the hole law. That is if you put any confidence in circumcision or recount it as necessary (for 〈◊〉 it is of itself neither good nor evil) then make you yourselves bond under the law which burden neither we nor our 〈◊〉. 15 fathers could bear/ and tempt god. Act. 15 And this sacrifice of judas was but a ceremony Ba●…tel & signified that christ should with his blood quench our sins. ergo. he that keepeth or count th' this ceremony as necessary (as are a●… the article of the faith) doth captiu●… him silfeunder the law & tempteth god to speak no more sharply yet will I go a little near unto you. judas himself believed not that there was a purgatory. For in the time of the old testament there was no purgatory as the schoolmen grant themselves but only a place of rest which they called limbus patrum: wherefore they are piteous ☞ lie deceived that will prove purgatory by the t●…xtes of the old testament/ sith/ as they say themselves/ there was no purgatory at that tyme. ●…ynallye/ I can not find a place that of itself more properly confuteth this fantastical purgatory/ than doth this same text which they stick so sore to/ imageninge that it stablisheth purgatory. The text sayeth on this manner/ except he had hoped that they which were slain should rise again/ It should seem void and in vain to pray for the deed. If you feign a purgatory them must this text needs be false. for be it in case that the deed should not rise again. Now says the text that it were void and in vain to pray for the deed if they should not ri ●…e again. But if there were a purgatory ☜ wherein they should be purged and punished in the mean season/ then were it not in vain to pra you for them to deliver them out of that pain/ but rather very fruitful and necessary although they should never rise again. and therefore if this text be of authority/ it is impossible that there should be any purgatory/ neither is there any text that in my judgement can better under mine purgatory and make it fall Parad venture you desire to know my mind in this place/ and that I should expound unto you what judas meant in his oblation sith he thought of no purgatory as the for said text doth well specify. verily I think that judas believed that there should be a resurrection/ as this text praiseth him saying/ thinking well and devoutelye of the resurrection. For among the jews there were many that not the resurrection of our flesh/ and they that believed it were yet so rude and ignorant/ that they thought they should rise but to obtain a carnal kingdone and have their enemies subdued under them with out rebellion. And thereto stick the jews unto this day. And it is most like that this should be his meaning/ we shall all rise again and possess this land in peace/ and these men which are slain are out of the favour of god because they have contrary Deute. 7. to the law. Deut. 7. taken of the Idols oblations/ therefore is it best that we send a sacrifice unto jerusalem to pacify the wrath of god towards them/ lest when they rise again the lord should send some plague amongst us for their transgression which they committed while they were here living. If any man can better guess I am well content to admit it/ but this is plain enough: he thought that this sacrifice could not help them before they should rise again/ which doth fully destroy purgatory. For where he sayeth that it were void and in vain to pray for the deed except they should rise again: Is even as mo●…h to say unto him that hath any wit/ as that this prayer and sacrifices can do them no good before they be risen again from death: for else were it not in vain to pray for them although they should never rise again. As by example/ if I say to a man that he shall never obtain his purpose except he should sue to the kings grace/ it is even as much to say to a m●… that hath any wit/ as he shall never obtain his purpose before he hath sued to the kings highness. Master Moore goeth a bout to ●…est them Master out of countenance which say that the book 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of Maccabees is not authentic because it is not received in the Canon of the hebrews and sayeth that by this reason we may also deny the book of sapience and prove ourselves insip●… ent●…s: but 〈◊〉/ if he admit the book of sapience to be true and authentic/ I fear me it will go nigh to prove him an incipient for granting that there is a purgatory. Read y●. 45. argument ag●…st Rastell and then judge whether I say true or not. Hitherto have I let slip our sheet-anchor & have run the seas with him/ grauntinge him for h●…s pleasure that this book should be of as good authority as isaiah. Not that the church or holy doctors/ or ani wise man supposeth it of so good authority/ but only to see what/ conclusion might be brought upon it (that once granted) And if any man would require my judgement as concerning this book/ I would shortly answer that eye there this book is false and of no authority/ or else that Christ and his apostles all holy doctoures and scolemen thereto are false and with out authority. For he that admitteth prayers and sacrifice to be done for the deed/ ye and also affirmeth that they are holy and wholesome forsuch sins as are damned by the law of god (which are in deed very mortal) doth not he a genst the word of god/ ye and also agen●…t the comen consent of all men? But this book doth so: which admitteth prayer and sacrifice to be done for the deed that were slain in the battle for their offence/ ye and also dampened by the law Deutero. 7. Now conclude yourselves what you think of this book. Deu. 7. Thus much hath Master Moore brought (to prove his purpose) out of the old testament and I think you see it sufficiently answered. And now he intendeth to prove his purgatory by good and substantial authority in the new testament also. FIrst let us consider (saith Master Moore) the words of the blessed apostle and e●…ange M. More gelist. S. joan. where he sayeth. Est peccatum ad 1. joan. 5. mortem/ non dico ut pro eo roget qs There is says he some sin that is unto the death/ I bid not that any man should pray for that/ this sin as y● in terpreters agree is understonden of desperation and impenitency/ as though Sayint joan/ would say/ that who depart out of this world impenitent or in despair/ any prayer after made can never stand him in stead. Then it appeareth clearly that. S. joan. mea●…neth that there are other which die not in such case for whom he would men should pray/ became use that prayer/ to such souls may be profitable. But that profit can no man take being in hea ●…en where et needeth not nor being in hell where it booteth not/ wherefore it appeareth y● such prayer helpeth only for purgagorye/ which thou must therefore needs grant except thou deny. S. johan. The text is written. 1. joan. 5. which sayeth Frith. there is a sin unto the death/ I bid not that 1. ●…an. 5. any man shall pray for that. In this place doth Master Moore understand by this word death/ temporal death/ and than he taketh his pleasure. But we will desire him to look. ij. lines above/ and not to snatch one piece of the text on this fashion. I will rehearse you the hole text and then you shall hear mine answer. The text is this/ if any man perceive that his brother doth 〈◊〉/ a sin not unto the death/ let him ask & he shall give him life/ to them that sin not unto ●…th. For there is some sin that is unto dee th'/ I bid not that any man should pray for that 〈◊〉. Now 〈◊〉 mine answer. Death an life 〈◊〉 contrary and both words are in this tex te/ t 〈◊〉 if you understand this word death 〈◊〉 emporall death/ them must you also understand 〈◊〉 this word life/ temporal life. And so shul●… ☞ 〈◊〉 prayer restore men again unto temporal 〈◊〉. But I ensure you/ Mastre Moore taketh 〈◊〉 this word death so confusedly/ that no 〈◊〉 can tell what he means. For in one place he taketh it for temporal death/ saying/ who so 〈◊〉 out of this world impenitent &c. and 〈◊〉 another place he is compelled to take it for therlastinge death. Therefore will I show you the very understanding of the text. And better in ●…erpreters desire I none then Christ himself which said unto the pharisees/ every blasphemy Marc. iij. shall be forgiven/ but the blasphemy against the holy ghost (which. S. Ihoan calleth a sin unto the death) shall never be forgiven/ but is ●…iltye unto everlasting damnation. Mar. iij. ●…hat sin or blasphemy is this? ●…erelye that declareth. S. Marc. saying: Th●…y said that he had an unclean spirit that was the sin unto death everlasting/ that was the sin/ that should never be forgiven. He proved so evident lie unto them that his miracles were done with the spirit of god/ that they could not deny it. ●…nd yet of an hard and obstinate heart/ even knowing the contrary/ they said that he had 〈◊〉 devil with in him. These pharisees died not forth with/ but l●… ved peradventure many yes●…es after. notwithstanding if all the apostles had prayed for these 〈◊〉 whiles they were yet living/ for all that their sin should never have been forgiven them. And truth it is that after they died in impenitency and dispeta●…on/ which was the fruit of that sin/ but not the sin itself. Now see you the meaning of this text/ and The pu●…. what the sin unto death or against the holy ●…ost is. If any man perceive his brother ●…o sin a sin not unto death/ that is/ not agen●… that holy ghost: let him ask and he shall give him life/ that is/ let him pray unto god for his brother and his sin shallbe forgiven him. But if h●… see his brother sin a sin unto death that is/ against the holy ghost/ let him never pray for him for it ●…oteth not. And so is not the text understand of prayer after this life (as Master Moore imageneth) but even of prayer for our brother which is living with us. notwithstanding this sin is not lighlye knoune/ except the person knowledge it himself/ or else the 〈◊〉 of god open it unto us. There fore may we pray for all men/ except we have evident knowledge that they have so offended as is before rehearsed. And thus is his text taken from him wherewith he laboureth to prove purgatory. what say they to the words of S. joan. M. More Apoca. 5. I have hard (sayeth he) every creature 〈◊〉. 5 that is in heaven and upon the earth/ and under the earth/ and that be in the see and all things that be in them/ all these have I hard say/ benediction/ and honour/ and glory/ and power for ever be to him/ that is sitting in the trow ne and unto y ᵒ lamb. By the creatures in heaven he means angels. By the creatures upon 〈◊〉 the earth/ he means men. By the creatures under the earth/ he means the souls in purgatory. And by the creatures in the see he means men that sail on the see. By this text I understand not only angel less and men/ but also heaven and earth and all that ●…rith. is in them/ even all beestes/ fish/ worms/ and other creatures and think that all these creatures do praise the lord. And where he taketh the creatures under the earth for the soul's in purgatory: I take it for all manner of creatures under the earth/ both worms 〈◊〉 and all other And where he draweth the text and maketh the creatures in the see/ to signify men that are sailing on the see: I say that the creatures in the see do signify fish/ and such other things/ 〈◊〉 that. S. joan by this text meant even plainly that all manner of things give praise unto god and the lamb/ ye and I dare be bold to add that even the very devil's and damned souls are conyelled to praise him. For their just punishment commends his puysaunte power and rightwiseness. Neither neadest thou to wondr●… or think. this any new thing for David in the 148/ biddeth serpent's beasts and birds to praise the lord/ as it is also written 〈◊〉. iij. And Paul sayeth. Roma. 8. All manner of creatures long for our redemption and praise god for it/ ye and mourn that the last day is not yet come that the elect children of god might enter in to rest: for than shall also those creatures be 〈◊〉 vexed from their corruption and bondage in to the liberty and glory of the children of god. Now judge christian reader which sentence standeth most with the scripture and glory of god. DOth not the blessed apostle. S. Peter as it m. Mor●… appeareth Acts. ij. say of our saviour Christ in this wise. Quem deus suscitavit solutis doloribus inferni. In these words he showed that pains of hell were loosed: but those pains were not the pains of dampened souls. And in limbo patrum there was no pain/ ●…rgo it was the pains of purgatory which he loosed. Alas/ what shall I say? I am in a manner Frith compelled to say that this man wandereth in wilful blindness. For else were it not possible that he should err so far as to bring in this text for his purpose. The words of Peter are these/ you men of Israel hear these words: jesus of Nazareth a man set forth of god for you with powers/ wonders and tokens which god hath done by him a 'mong you (as you yourselves know) after he was delyvered by the purposed council and for●…knowlege of god/ and you received him of the hands of the wicked/ you crucified and killed him/ whom god hath raised dissolving the pains of death/ for it was impossible that he should be subdued of it. Here in stead/ of these words/ the pains of death/ he setteth the pains of hell (as it is most like) even of a purposed deceit. For all be it the man would not take the pain to read the greek/ yet if he had but once lo●…ed upon the translation of his old friend and companion Erasmus/ it would have taught him to have said solut is doloribus mortis/ that is/ dissolving the pains of death/ aceordinge to the greek and very words of luke which written the senior Acts in the greek tongue. And albeit the old translation useth this word infernus/ which is diversly taken in scripture/ both for death/ for a grave and for hell/ yet in this place is Master Moore with out excuse which calleth it hell in our English tongue. For all be it the word of itself were indifferent in the latin/ yet it is not indifferent in the English. For there is none English man that taketh this word hell/ either for death or for a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉/ no not Master Moore himself. For first he translateth the text falsely calling it hell/ and than he discanteth on a false ground and calleth hell/ not death/ but purgatory. 〈◊〉 S. 〈◊〉 brought in these words for no nother purposs●… but to prove that Christ was risen from death thorough the power of his father/ meaning that god the father did raise his son Christ notwithstanding the sorrowful pains and pa●…ges which he suffered unto the death/ for it was impossible that Christ should be utterly subdued of death. So that this text proveth no more purgatory/ then it proveth that Maste●… Moore was hired of the spiritualty to defend purgatory. Besides that/ if it should serve for purgatory (which no wysem●…n will graunt●… when he seethe the process of the text) it should prove nothing but that Christ should lie in th●… pains of purgatory/ until god his father had holp him out/ for the pains which he speaketh of/ were Christ's pains/ which no man can deny if he read the text. But what a fond opinion were that/ to feign that Christ which was with out sin should be tormented in the pains of purgatory? ●…he blessed apostle Paul in his first epistle to the Corinthians the third chapter speaking M. 〈◊〉 of our saviour Christ the very and on 1. Cor. 3 lie foundation of all our faith and salvation/ saith. If any man build upon this foundation gold/ silver/ preciousstones/ would/ hay or straw/ every man's work shallbe made open/ for the day of the lord shall declare it/ for in the fire it shallbe showed/ and the 〈◊〉 shall prove what manner of thing 〈◊〉 man's work is If any man's work that he hath builded the ten do abide/ he shall have a reward/ if any man's work burn/ he shall suffer harm/ but he shallbe safe/ but yet as by fire. And finally con cludeth that this word fire/ must signify the fi 〈◊〉 of purgatory. ●…e that considereth the order and process Frith. of the text shall easily perceive that this man 〈◊〉. For the text speaketh of the preachers/ and blameth the corinthians that they made such sects and dissensions among themselves/ for one said that he was Paul's man and he●… de on his side. another said that he was Peter'S man. The third did stick to Apollo and so forth/ even as our friars do now a days/ one sect holdeth on S. Frances/ another of S Dominike/ the third of. S. Austyne. 〈◊〉. S. Paule rebuked these sects and called the persons carnal/ commanding them to take Christ for their head and to cleave only to him. And as for Apollo/ Peter and Paul/ he saith that they are but ministers of the word/ every man according to the gift given him of god/ the one more the other less. ●…aule planted Apollo watered/ that is/ Paule set the corinthians in the ground of Christ's faith/ and then came Apollo and preached them further of Christ and comforted them to abide in the way which they walked in. How be it/ it was only god that made them prospero in the word and gave the increase. Nevertheless eve rye man shall receive according to his labour. If he preach much the more shallbe his reward/ if he preach little/ thereafter shall he be rewarded. For we are gods workmen to preach his word/ and you are gods husbandry whom we must till and dress in declaring you the word and perpetual will of god/ you are become gods building thorough the grace of god which he hath given me/ whom we must frame and so couch by the word of god that we may make of you a temple of living stones. Like a wise workmaster have I laid the foundaton/ for I first began to preach you Christ. Now cometh there another and buildeth upon this my foundation entending to intended you further in the ways of Christ. But let every man take heed how he buildeth or preach unto you/ for no man can say any other foundation than is laid all ready/ for all our building and preaching leneth only on this point and principal stone/ to declare unto you what Christ hath done for you. If any build on this foundation gold/ silver or precious stones/ that is/ if any man preach purely the word of god/ which is likened to gold/ silver/ and precious stones/ because that as these are not consumed with material fire/ but rather made more pure/ even so the pure word of god suffereth neither hurt nor damage in spiritual fire/ that is temptation and persecution. Or else if any man build upon this foundation would/ hay or stubble/ that is/ if a man of good intent (but yet thorough ignorance) preach and teach you to stick unto ceremonies and men's traditions (although they seem never so glorious) and to such things as are not grounded on scripture (as. S. Cipriane taught Cyprian and defended to rebaptise him/ that was once baptised and after fallen in to heresy/ ye and many bisshopes consented unto him/ yet was it surely a great error) this is wood/ hay and stubble that can not endure the fire of temptation and light of god's word. ●…verye 〈◊〉 work shallbe declared for that day shall open it. Albeit it prosper for a season in the dark and can not be perceyved/ yet when the day cometh/ which is the light of god's word/ it shallbe espied and judged. The day shall open it that shallbe revelated in fire/ and the fire shall prove every man's work what it is. Fire signifieth temptation/ tribulation/ persecution. &c. which shall prove every man's works. If any man's work that he hath builded do abide this fire/ that is/ if the word that a man hath preached do abide all assaults and temptations/ it is a token that they are surely grounded on the scripture of god/ and then shall the preacher receive his reward. If any man's work be burnt/ that is if the preachers word●…s will not abide the trial and light but vani●…h away/ then is it a token that they are not well grounded on scripture/ and so shall he suffer hurt/ for it shallbe a great cross and vexation to the preachers heart that he hath been so deceyved him silse and hath also led other in to his error. notwithstanding he shallbe saved/ because of his faith in the foundation/ which is Christ/ and his ignoranunce shallbe pardoned sith he erreth not of a malicious purpose but of a good zeal. But yet shall it be as it were a fire to him/ for it shall grieve his heart to see that he hath laboured in vain/ and that he must destroy the same which he before thorough ignorance preached: this is the process and pure understanding of the text. There is no man but he granteth that these words/ foundation/ laying of foundation// gold/ silver/ precious stones/ would/ hay and stubble are figuratively spoken: and why can they not suffer that this word 〈◊〉 be so taken to? But where they find this word fire/ what so ever the process be/ there plance they purgatory by and by/ with out any further consideration. And yet if they had any iudg●…ment at all/ they might well perceive by Paul'S own words that he took not this word fire fore material fire/ as they grossly ima gyne) but proceeded in his allygorye and spoke it fyguratyvelye: for paul sayeth/ he shallbe saved/ but so as it were thorough fire. Mark well his words/ he sayeth not that he shall be saved thorough fire/ But as it were thorough fire sygnyfyinge that it shallbe a great 〈◊〉 and vexation unto him. So that by these words of paul/ a very child may perceive what he meant. Hurthermore/ if they be so stiffnecked that they will not bow to the truth/ but 〈◊〉 persever in their own phantasyes sayninge a purgatory out of this place: then will I boldly say unto them that there shall no man enter in to it but only preachers. For in this place paul only speaketh of them/ and affermeth that it is their preaching and learning that shallbe so proved thorough fire/ and that such a preacher shallbe saved/ but yet as it were thorough fire And therefore may the temporalty be of good comfort/ for I promise them that by this text they shall never have hurt in this their painful purgatory. DOth not our blessed saviour himself say that there is a certain sin which a M More man may so commit against the holy ghost/ Mat. 12. that it shall never be remitted nor forgiven/ neither in this world nor in the world to come? Now when our lord sayeth that the blasphemy against the holy●… ghost shall not be forgeven neither in this world nor in the world to come/ he geveth us clear knowledge/ that of other sins some shallbe forgiven in this world and some in the world to come. Although this argument be a very Frith sophysme/ yet is there neither one rule in sophistry that can prove this argument/ nor yet one sophister so foolish as to grant it. For if I should say unto mine enemy that I would neither forgive him as long as I lived nor after my death because he had done me some heinous trespass/ then would men count him worse them mad that would say/ Frith will not forgive his enemy as long as he liveth nor after his death/ ergo some men will forgive their enemies after their death. For when I say that I will not forgive him neither in my life nor after my death/ I mean that I will never forgive him/ and make that addition because he should not of foolishness look for any such forgiveness. But thus followeth the argument well/ it shall not be forgiven in this world nor in the world to come/ ergo it shall never be forgiven. And even so doth saint Marce expound these words of christ in the third chapter. For Matthew sayeth in the. twelve. He that speaketh against the holy ghost/ shall never have it forgiven in this world nor in the world to Marc. 3. come: Marc. expoundeth it thus/ he that speaketh a blaspemye/ against the holy ghost/ hath no remission for ever/ but is guilty unto everlasting damnation. But of this have I spoken sufficiently before (in soluting the text. 1. joan. 5.) both what the sin is and also how the text is to be understand. Neither affe●…meth the scripture in any place that any sin is forgiven after this life/ but says be ready for you know not the time when the lord shall come/ as who should say/ in this life is remission and full mercy to ●…e had/ labour therefore to attain it for after this life is no such forgevene sse/ but even as the lord findeth that so shall he judge y●. His next & last argu meant of scripture is this ☜ M Mo●… christ saeyth/ as it is rehearsed in y●. twelve. Mat. 12. of Matthew/ y● men shall yield a reckoning of every idle word/ and that shallbe after this present life. Thenwoteth every man that by that reckoning is understand a punishment therefore/ which shall not be in hell/ & much less in heaven/ and therefore can it be now here else but in Frith purgatoye. 〈◊〉 I have not hard of a partone that so unprofitable defendeth his client/ nor yet of any man that giveth himself such proper trips to cast himself/ except he w●…nt about to betray and utterly destroy the part which he would seem to favour/ for this text maketh more against him/ than any that he brought before seemeth to make with him. The words of matthew are these/ I tell you that of every idle word that men speak/ shall they yield a reckoning in the day of judgement/ but that leuet●… he out full craftelye. Now let us reason of this text. By the reckoning is understand a punishment for the sin (as Master Moore sayeth himself) and this reckoning shallbe upon the day of doom/ ergo than this punishment for sin can not be before the day of doom/ but either upon or else after the day of doom. For god will not first punish them and then after reckon with them to punish them anew. And so is purgatory quite excluded. For all they that ever imagined any purgatory do put it before the judgement/ for when christ cometh to judgement/ then ceaseth p●…rgatorye as they all consent/ neither is there any prayer or sufrage which at that time can do any help at all. And so hath master Moore by this text given himself a proper fall Here may you see ●…ow strong his reasons are and what will happen to him that taketh in hand to defend the falsehood against the truth of god's word/ for his reasons make more against him then with him. you may well know that if his matter had been any thing likely/ he would have coloured it if another fashion. But sith such a patron/ so greatly commended for his conveyaunce and wisdom/ handleth this matter so slenderly/ you may well mistrust his cause. Th●…s is the last reason grounded of scripture where with he hath laboured to prove purgatory. And after his reason he reckoneth up the doctoures/ and says for his pleasure that all make for him/ but as touching the doctors I will make a sufficient answer in the third part which is against my lord of Rochestre. Thus he leaveth the scripture which he hath full unmanerlye handled/ and now endeavoureth himself to prove his purpose by some pro babble reasons/ And first he bringeth in his old argument that the church can not err/ to the which reason I need not to answer/ for wyllyam Tindale hath declared abundantly/ in a treatise which by god's grace you shall shortly have/ what the church is/ and also that it both may err and doth err/ if the pope and his adherentes be the church as master Moore imagineth. M. More After this he confirmeth his fantasy with fantastical apparitions/ saying: that there have in every country and in every age apparitions been had/ and well known and testified/ by which men have had sufficient revelation and pro●…e of purgatory. How many have/ by god's most gracious favour/ appeared to their friends after their death/ and showed themselves helped and delivered thence by pilgrimages/ almosedede/ prayer &c. If they say y● these be lies/ then be they much worse than their master Luther himself/ for he consenteth in his sermons that many such apparitions be tru●…/ and if they be true/ then must there needs be a purgatory. Here playeth master Moore the soot soph●… ●…ter and would deceive men with a fallacy which lieth in this word/ true/ so that when he sayeth that such apparitions be true/ this sentence may be taken two manner of ways. One/ that it is true that such fantastical apparitions do appear to divers/ and that I think no man be so foolish but he will grant him. And yet in deed are they no souls but very devils that so appear to delude men/ that they should fall from the faith of Christ and make a god of their own works trusting to be saved thereby. But to suppose this true/ that they are the souls of purgatory which so appear/ is very fond/ false and against all scripture/ for isaiah sayeth/ shall we go for the quick unto the deed? that is/ shall we inquire of the ●…sal. 8. deed and believe them in such points as concern our wealth? Nay says he/ but unto the law and witness/ that is unto god and his word. And so are we monished by Esay in the. 8. that we believe no such phantasyes/ we are also commanded by the law of god/ that we inquire not of the deed/ not for the truth/ for god abhorreth it deuteronomy. xviij. Besides that the parable of the rich man and Lazarus doth utterly condemn all such apparitions/ that they are no souls which appear but very devil's. For when the rich man desired that Lazarus might go and warn his brethren/ that they should not come in to that place 〈◊〉. 16 of pain/ Abraham answered/ that they had Moses and the Prophets/ adding also that if they believed not them/ then would they not believe although one should rise again and tell it th●…m. And so may I conclude that it were in vay 〈◊〉 to send them any such apparitions of sou●…/ and that in very deed there are no souls ●…ent of god/ but that they are verily devil's which come to delude the people/ and to withdraw them from Christ. Furthermore all men grant that the appearing of Samuel was but an illusion of the devil/ thou shall find the 1. Reg. 28. story. 1. Regum. xxviij. It is not long sith such a question was moved in oxforth/ the thing was this/ there was a poor man of the country/ which was sore troubled with such apparitions/ for there came a thing to him which desired him to go certain pilgrimages and to do certain other ceremonies whereby it said that it should be delivered from innumerable torments which it now suffered. The poor man believed that this thing said truth/ and did as it commanded. notwithstanding it came so often unto him/ that what with labour and what with fear/ the man was almost besides himself/ and then was he sent to Oxforth to ask counsel what was best to be done. The question was moved to one doctor Nicolas/ and he affirmed by & by that it was no soul but the very devil/ and that he should no more follow the fendes appetite. Then was it moved to doctor kington/ and he affirmed the same. finally/ they inquired of doctor Roper what his mind was therein/ and he said that he would look on his book/ and when he had looked his pleasure/ he gave this answer. Let him alone awhile (quoth he) ●… I warrant you/ that this follow shall either hang himself/ or drown himself/ or come to some other mische●…. Thus determined these men/ wh ●…h are a great deal to superstitious to descent from any of the old doctors/ ye or else from their own scolemen. And yet would Master Moore make us believe that they were very sou tes/ and that by such ceremonies they might b●… delyvered. Now cometh Master Moore to solute though see two reasons that were brought against purgatory in the supplication of beggars/ which was the hole occasion of his book. And mark how slender his solutions are. The first reason is this. If there were any purgatory out of which the pope might deliver one soul by his pardon/ then may he by the same authority deliver many: and if he may deliver many/ them may he deliver them all. The second reason is this. If he can deliver them for money: then may he a●…so deliver them with out money. And then is he a very cruel tyrant which hepeth th●…m in pains so intolerable (as he imagineth himself) until they pay money. THe first he soluteth on this manner. Sith 〈◊〉. Moore our lord sendeth them thither for satisfaction to be made in some manner for their sin: the pope should rather against gods purpose deliver them fire them change the manner of their satisfaction from pain in to prayer/ almose or other good works to be done by their friends for them in some point profitable and necessary for the hole corpse of christendom or some good member of the same. Frith ●…s concerning satisfaction/ I have spoken sufficiently before against Rastell. The scripture knoweth no nother satisfaction to be made for sin towards god/ but only the blood of his son jesus christ. for if there were another satisfaction/ then died christ in vain: ye and he that seeketh any other satisfaction for his sin (towards god) than Christ's blood (which must be received with a repenting heart thorough faith) doth despise Christ's blood & tread it under his feet. And so is the first part of Master Moor's solution false/ that they should be shut in purgatory to make satisfaction. Besides that where he saith that if the pope should so deliver them/ he should deliver them free. I say nay. For the pope can deliver no man from thence until satisfaction be made/ as both he and all his ad herentes grant. And therefore to find away how he might seem to deliver them/ he feigneth that he hath in his hands the merits of Christ's passion/ and the merits of all saints to distribute them at his pleasure. And therefore might the pope apply the merits of Christ's passion and of other saints unto the se silly souls and so deliver them. For those merits are enough to satisfy for the souls in purgatory/ if there were ten times so many. And so should the pope deliver them not free/ but changing the manner of their satisfaction from pay ●…e/ in to merits of Christ's passion and of all saints. And so is this reason not abated but rather stronger than it was before. Now be it to say the truth/ the merits of Christ's passion are only distributed unto the faithful/ and that by god and his spirit and not by the pope. And as for the merits of saints can not help other/ for they have to little for themselves if god should enter in to judgement with them psal. 104. And christ sayeth Luc. 17. when you have done all that is christ sayeth commanded you/ say we are unprofitable servants. To this well agreeth the parable of the ten virgins. Mat. 25. which could not ●…e part with any of their oil/ for fear that they should not have had enough fore themselves. THe second reason biteth him somewhat/ and therefore he calleth it unreasonable and would avoid it by an example on this wise. ●…resupposed that y● pope may deliver all soules out of purgatory/ yet if he were therefore ●…rn M. More ell as often as he leaveth any there/ this unreasonable reason lieth cruelty unto the blame of god which may undoubtedly deliver all souls thence/ and yet he leaveth them there. This blasph●… my should also touch his high matestye for keeping any soul in hell/ from whence no man doubteth but that he might if he list deliver them all for ever. I answer/ that the example is nothing lie Frith ke for god can deliver no man/ neither from hell nor purgatory (if such one were) until his justice be countrepaysed/ as I have suffy●…yentlye proved against Rastell. And if you obiect●… his absolute power/ then answer I that he hath an absolute justice as well as an absolute power/ and so can his absolute power do nothing until his absolute justice be satisfied. And again I say/ that god hath no power nor lust to do against his scripture and himself/ but his power and lust is to fulfil that he hath promised unto the faithful everlasting glory/ and unto the wicked et●…rnall damnation. So that god by his scripture ca●… deliver no man out of hell/ for them had he power to make himself a liar and so we ●…e he no god: neither can he deliver any man out of purgatory (supposed that there were one) until his justice be pacefyed. But the pope as he sayeth himself) hath the full satysfa●… on in his own hand whereby god's 〈◊〉 must be pacefyed: wherefore it is only the 〈◊〉 pes fault/ wh●…h hath the satisfaction in his power and will not give it till he have money/ and not god's fault which must needs tarry until satisfaction be made. And so is this reason as strong as it was before/ and the pope proved a cruel tyrant. BUt yet to excuse the pope he sayeth/ It is M. More not meet that the pope should be so quick in deliverance: for so should he give a great occasion to men boldly to fall in to sin and little to care or fear how slowly they rise again/ and that were not meet for his office. Horsouth this is a gentle reason. He may Frith not be quick in deliverance because he should give men occasion of sin. But for one penny he will quite deliver you and that with speed. For if you offer a penny unto Saint Dominykes box/ assoon as you h●…are the penny ring in the box/ even so soon is the soul in heaven. Call you not that quick deliverance? If you give not that penny/ then may he not deliver the soul/ for it should be an occasion of sin. But if you give that penny/ then is there no such occasion of sin. Such great virtue hath that one penny in Master More res sight/ that it clean wipeth away the occasion Note wh at virtue is in a p●… nigh of sin. Hurthermore/ if this redemption may be done for money/ it shallbe still an occasion unto the rich that they regard not sin/ and yet had they more need to be bridled then ●…he poor: for where richesses and abundance is there reigneth sin most of all. How be it I have showed sufficientlve before against Rastell/ that they which fear not to sin but for fear of purgatory/ shall never come in it but be damned in hell. For we should not abstain from sin for any fear/ but for the pure love that we have to god our most merciful father. &c. THen cometh Master Moore to this imagis 〈◊〉. Moore. nation/ that we should say/ how no man's prayer or good dead can help another. And sayeth he if that were true/ then could not Christ's bitter passion profit us. Sir mine opinion of Christ's death is this ●…th We have all sinned in Adam/ with out our awe 1 ne consent and work. And we are loosed from sin thorough Christ/ 1 with out our works or deservinges. Sin is comen in to the world thorough Adam 2 and is punished with death The death thorough Christ is turned in to a me 2 dicyne and clean finisheth sin. One man's sin which is Adam/ hath conden 3 ned many men. One man's grace which is Christ/ hath vanqueshed 3 sin and helped many. If one man's sin be able to condemn us 4 with out our works. Then much more is god's grace of power to 4 save us with out our works. Sin thorough Adam was planted in us. 5 Grace thorough Christ is planted in us. 5 Sin hath had dominion over all men thorough 6 Adam. Grace prevaileth over us thorough Christ 6 Death thorough sin is planted in us. 7 Life thorough grace is planted in us 7 Death thorough sin hath dominion over us. ●… Life thorough grace prevaileth over us. 8 Sin and death have condemned all men. 9 Grace and life have saved all men. 9 Thorough Adam/ Adams sin was counted our 10 own: Thorough Christ/ Christ's rightwiseness is repu 10 ted unto us for our own. Of this may you perceive that we think that Christ's death profiteth us/ for we take his death and resurrection for our hole redemption and salvation. Now as concerning men's good deeds and prayers/ I say that they profit our neighbours: ye and good works were ordained for that intent that I should profit my neighbour thorough them: And prayer aught to be made to god for every state. But if I should grant that such works and prayers should help them that are departed/ then should I speak clean with out my/ for the word of god knoweth no such thing. Let them therefore that pray for the deed exa mine themselves well with what faith they do it/ for faith leaneth only on the word of god/ so that where his word is not/ there can be no good faith: and if their prayer proceed not of faith/ surely it can not please god Hebre. xj. NOw suppose (sayeth master Moore) that purgatory m. Moore could in no wise be proved by scripture/ and that some would yet say plainly that there were one/ and some would say plainly nay/ let us now see whether sort of these twain might take most harm/ if their part were the wrong. Furst he that believed there were pur●…/ and that his prayer and good works wrought for his friends souls might relieve them therein/ and because of that used much pra per and almose for them/ he could not lose the reward of his good will although his opinion were untrue and that there were no purgatory at all. But on the other side/ he that beleveth there is none and therefore prayeth for none: if his opinion be false and that there be purgatory in dead/ he les●…th much good/ and getteth him all so much harm. For he both fears much less to sin/ and to lie long in purgatory/ saving that his heresy shall keep him thence/ and send him down deep in to hell. I answer/ that he should take most harm Frith. that believed there were a purgatory/ if his opinion were wrong and coul●…e not be proved by the scripture (as master Moore supposed) for he should sin and transgress against the law of god which sayeth deuteronomy. xii. That I command thee/ that only do unto the lord/ neither add any thing nor diminish. And before in the. iiij. chapter of the same book/ ye shall not add unto the word that I speak unto you neither shall you take any thing from it. And again in the. u chapter you shall not decline neither to the right hand (doing the which is good in your own sight) neither yet unto the left hand/ doing that which I manifestly forbid you as though he should say/ do that only which I command the. And where master Moore sayeth that he can not lose the reward of his good will/ although his opinion be untrue. I answer yes for it is but choose holiness which Paul condemneth Colos. ij. which surely shall rather be imputed unto him for sin then for any good work. And because (as I said before) it can not be done thorough faith/ I say that it is utter lie reproved of god. And on the other side he that beleveth it not/ sith it can not be proved by scripture/ can catch no harm at all/ although his opinion were false/ but rather much good & praise both of god and all good men: because he fears to swerve from the word of god/ and had liefer not to believe that thing which is true (be it in case that purgatory were) and not set forth in scripture/ for so shall he be sure not to sin: them to believe for an article of the faith that thin goe which is false in dead/ for so should he surely sin and transgress against god and his holy word. And so is there great peril to believe a thing for an article of the faith which is not opened nor spoken of in scripture: But if I believe it not (although it were true) yet is there no right nor law that can condemn me, Now may you see/ that to believe for an article of the faith that there is a purgatory/ sith it can not be by scripture/ may condemn a man & make him lie for ever in the pains of hell/ where as the t'other should but a little longer lie in the pains of purgatory (if there were one) and so shall he be sure to catch most harm that beleveth there is a purgatory. saving (sayeth master m. 〈◊〉. Moore) that his heresy shall keep him from thence/ and send him down deep in to hell. Before he supposed that it could not be proved by scripture. And now (standing the sa Frith. 〈◊〉 supposition) he calleth it an heresy/ and an heresy is a stiff held opinion repugnant unto scripture. If purgatory can not be proved by scripture (as he maketh his supposition) then can not the contrary opinion be nepugnaunte to scripture/ and thus of his own supposition he doth evil to call it an heresy. And where he saith/ that his opinion shall send him down deep in to hell/ verily he steppeth to far in god's judgement to conclude and det●…ne so cruelly/ and specially in the same argument where he supposeth that it can not be proved/ for if it can not be proved by scripture/ whereby will you condemn him so deep that holdeth the contrary? forsooth you are a fierce judge/ god give you eyes to se. 〈◊〉. Moore. ●…inallye if you pity any man in pain/ never known you pain comparable to ours/ whose fire passeth as far in heat all the fires that ever burned upon earth/ as y● hottest of all those passeth a feigned fire painted on a wall. ●…ith. 〈◊〉 among all his other poetry it is reason that we grant him this. ye and that our fire is but water in comparison to it. For I ensure you it hath alone melted more gold and silver foroure spiritualties profit out of poor men's purses/ then all the gold smiths fires with in England/ neither yet therewith can the raging heat be assuaged. But it melteth castles/ hard stones/ lands and tenements in numerable. For all your sects of religion/ monks friars/ canons and nuns with other priests regulare and seculare/ by this fire/ multiplication and alcuniye have obtained their whole riches and pleasures: even the sweet of englonde. And so must we grant him that this fire is 〈◊〉 hot. Now may you well perceive what a slender foundation their note purgatory hath. For by this confutation may you easily see that it hath no ground nor authority of scripture. Not withstanding it is the foundation of all religions and cloisters/ ye and of all the goods that now are in the spiritualty. Are not they wyttye workmen which can build so much on so slender a foundation? How be it they have made it so top pehevye/ that it is surely like to have a falie. Thus hath Master Moore a full a●…swere/ both to his scriptures which were to far wrested out of their places/ and also to his own apparent reasons. How be it if his mastership be not fully pacified/ let him more groundlye open his mind/ and bring for his purpose all that he thinketh to make for it and I shall by god's grace shortly make him an answer and guyet his mind. ☜ ¶ Thus endeth the second book. ☜ ¶ The third book/ which answereth unto my lord of Rochestre and declareth the mind of the old do●…oures. NOw will I address me to the third part/ which shallbe an answer unto my lord of Rochestre. And all his reasons and arguments both of scriptures and doctures which are not be fore dissolved in the second part will I clean confute by god's grace in this third book. How be it the chiefest of his scriptures hath Master Moore perused and hath in a manner nothing but that was before written by my lord of Rochestre/ saving that he maketh the silly souls to pule to help his matter with all. My lord of Rochestre is the first patron and defeudar of this fantasy. And even as Master Moore took his work out of my lord ●…f Rochestres/ even so plucked Rastell as his book out of Master Mores My lord of Rochestre to confirm his sentence/ reckoneth up the doctoures by heap: master Johan/ master Uvyllyam/ master Thomas et omnes. But as concerning the doctoures that they are not so fully on his side as he would make them seem/ is soon proved. And where should I better begin to confute him then of his own words? for he writeth himself upon the. xviij. article on this manner. ☞ ☜ ●…Here is no man now a days that doubteth Rochestre of purgatory/ sayeth he/ and yet among the old ancient fathers was there either none or else very seldom mention made of it. And also among the grecians even unto this day is not purgatory believed. Let him read that will the commentaries of the old grecians/ and as I suppose he shall find either no word spoken of it or else very few. these are my lords words. I wonder what obliviousness is comen upon Frith him that he so cleaveth unto the doctures/ whom he affirmed before either to make no mention of it or else very seldom. notwithstanding I will declare you somewhat of the doctures/ that you may the better know their meaning. To speak of the doctures and what their mind was in this matter/ it were necessary to declare in what time they were and what condi cyon the world was in in their days. S. Austyne Ambrose and Nierome were in one time/ even about. iiij. hundred year after Christ/ and yet before their time were there arisen infinite heretics by hole sects/ as the Arrians/ Domitians/ Eunomians/ vigilancians/ ●…lagians with infinite other/ which had so swerved from the truth and wrested the scripture out of frame/ that it was not possible for one man/ no nor for one man's age to restore it again unto the true sense among these there were some/ which not only feigned a purgatory/ but also doted so far/ that they affirmed that every man were he never so vicious should be saved thorough that fire and alleged for them the place of Daule. 1. Lorinthiorum. iij. These holy doctoures perceyvinge 1. Lor. 3. those great errors/ thought it not best by & by to condemnne all things indifferent lie. But to suffer and dissemble with the less/ that they might weed out the opinions which w●…re most noisome/ as the apostles granted unto the jews that the gentiles should keep so me of Moses law. Acts. xv. that they might the ●…ctes. 15. better come to their purpose to save the jews with the gentles. For if they had at the first v●… 〈◊〉 set of the law/ then would the jews ne ver have given any audience unto the apostles S. justyve. And even so. S. Austyne went wisely to work. First condemning by the scripture that ere roure which was most no ysome/ and written on this manner. Albeit some might be purged thorough fire/ yet not such as the apostle condemneth when he says that the persons which so do shall not possess the kingdom of heaven. And where they woldehave stuck unto Paul's text. 1. Cor. 3. & affirm that they should be saved thorough fi re. S. Austyne answered/ that Paul's text was understand of the spiritual fire which is temptation/ affliction/ tribulation &c. This written he in the. 67. 68 of his enchiridion to subvert that gross crroure/ that all should be saved thorough the fire of purgatory. yet in the. 69. he goeth a little near them/ and sayeth that it may be doubted whether there be any such purgatory or not/ h●…durst not yet openly condemn it/ because he thought that men could not at that time bear it. But after in his book which he entitled de vanitate huius seculi/ there doth he fully she ☞ ●…e his mind in these words: Scitote quod cum anima a corpore avellitur/ statim aut pro meritis bonis in paradiso collocatur aut pro meritis malis in inferni tartara precipitatur. That is/ weet you well that when the soul is departed from the body/ either is it by and by put in paradise according to his good deserts: orels it is thrust headlong in to hell for his sins. Here he ●…lene condemneth purgatory. For if this be done by and by assoon as the soul is departed from the body/ then can there be no purgatory. And so maketh. S. Austyne hell with us. Thin ●…e you that. S. Austyne dissenteth from his companion. S. Jerome/ or from his own Master. S. Ambrose? Nay vere lie. How be it I will allege their own words/ and then judge ☞ saint Ambrose dissenteth not from. S. Austyne S. Ambrose/ / but doth establish his sentence as fully as is possible. For he writeth in the second chapter of his book which is called de bono mortis/ on this manner bringing in the words of David. Psal. 39 Ad vena ego sum in terra et pe regrinus sicut omnes patres mei. Et ideo tanquam peregrinus ad illam sanctorum communem omnium patriam festinabat. Petens pro huius commorationis inquinamento remitti si by peccata priusquam discederet de vita. Qui enim hic non acceperit remissionem peccatorum/ illic non erit. Non erit autem quia ad vitam eternam non potuerit pervenire/ quia vi ta eterna remissio peccatorum est. Ideoqz dicit re●…itte mihi ut refrigerer priusquam abeam &c. that is/ I am a stranger and pilgrim in the earth/ as all my fathers have been. And therefore as a pilgrim he hasted unto the comen country of all saints/ requiring for the filthiness that he had received in this bodily mansion/ that his sins might be forgiven him before he departed from this life. For he that here hath not received forgiveness of his sins/ shall not be there. He shall not surely be there/ for he can not come unto everlasting life/ for everlasting life ●…o the forgiveness of sins. And therefore he sa yeth/ forgive me that I may be cooled before I depart. Here may you evid●…ntlye perceive that Saint Ambrose knew 〈◊〉 of purgatory nor of any forgiveness that should be after this life. But plainly affirmeth that he that receiveth not forgiveness of his sins here (that is in this life) shall never come in heaven. And for a more vehement affirmation he doubleth his own words saying/ he that here hath not received forgiveness of his sins/ he shall not be there/ he shall not surely be there: he meaneth that he shall never come to heaven which here hath not his remission. Saint Hieromes mind may soon be gathered S. Hieron by his exposition of the. ix. chapter of Ecclesya. 9 ecclesiastes upon this text: the deed have no part in this world/ not in any work that is done under the sonn●…. There addeth. S. Jerome/ that the deed can add nothing unto that which they have taken with them out of this life fe. For they can nother do good not sin/ neither can they increase in virtue or vice. Albe it (saith he) some will contrary this exposition of firming also that we may increase and decrease after death. Here are three things to be noted First that the text sayeth/ that the deed are not partetakers of any work that is done under the son ne. And there may you see that all suffragies/ offerings/ and dyryges for the deed/ be in vay●…e and profit them not/ for they are partetakers of no think under the son. secondarily you may se. S. Hieromes own mide that the deed can nother do good nor evil neither increase in virtue nor vice. And so is purgatory put out. for if the●… can do no good/ what should they do in purgato rye? And again if they can not increase in virtue they be like to lie long in purgatory. Par adventure some man would think●… that they do no good/ but only that they suffer good. To that I answer/ that he that suffereth good/ doth good. For if a man/ should suffer his body to be burned for the faith of chryst/ would you not say that he did a good dead? and yet doth he but suffer. thirdly you may note that. S. Jerome was not ignorant that certain (as they which did fain purgatory) would deny h●…s exposition & say that we might increase and decrease in virtue and vice after death/ yet that notwithstanding he held his sentence condemning their opini●…n/ which thing he would not have done (specyalye sith he known that he should have adversaries for it) except he had been sure that his sentence was right. See I pray you how that not only scripture/ but even their own doctoures condemn this fantastical purgatory. And yet my lords are not a shamed to say that all make for them. ●… Nevertheless I will go further with him. Be it in case that all the doctors did of firm purgatory/ as they do not: what were my lord the near his purpose? verily not one jote. For the authority of doctoures by my lords own confession extendeth no further bu●… is only to be admitted whiles they confirm thei●… words by scripture or else by someprobable reason For my lord writeth on this manner. Article. 37 the pope hath not so allowed y● hole doctrine of Rochestre S. thomas That men should believe every ●…oyn te he written were true. Neither hath the church so approved either. S. augustine or. S. Hierom not nor any other auctor's doctrine/ but that in some places we may descent from them for they in many places have openly declared themselves to be men/ and many times to have erred. These are my lords own words. Now sith the doctors sometime err/ and in certain places are not to be admitted (as he granteth himself) how should we know when to approve them and when to deny them? If w●… should hang on the doctoures authority/ then should we as well allow the untruth as the truth sith he affirmeth both. Therefore we must have a judge to discern between truth and falsehood And who should that be: the Pope? Nay 〈◊〉 lie for he being a man (as well the doctoures were) may err as they did/ and so shall we ever be uncertain. Our judge therefore must not be partial flexible nor ignorant (and so are all natural men excluded) but he must be inalterable/ even searching the bottom and ground of all thing. who must that be? verily the scripture and word of god: which was given by his son/ confirmed and sealed by the holy ghost/ and testefyed by miracles and blood of all martyrs. This word is the judge that must examine the matter/ the perfeyte touchstone that trieth all thing and day that dis●… seth all iuggelinge mists. If the doctoures say any thing not dyssonaunte from this word than is it to be admitted and held for truth: But if any of their doctrine discord from y●… it is to be abhorred and held a cursed. To this full well agreeth. S. Austin which S. Augus●… styne writeth unto. S. Hyerome on this wise: Dear brother/ I think that you will not have your books reputed like unto the works of the prophets and apostles: for I (the scripture reserved) do read all other men's works on that manner/ that I do not believe them because the author so saith/ be he never so well learned and holy/ except that he can certify me by the scripture or clear reason that he sayeth true. And even so would I that other men should read●… my books/ as I read theirs. These are. S. Austyns words. And thus have I proved both by. Saint augustine and also by my lords awe ne words/ that no man is bound to believe the doctors/ except they can be proved true either by scripture or good reason not repugnant to scripture. Therefore let us see what scripture or good reason my lord bringeth to approve his doctors withal For else they can not help him (as we have declared both by. S. augustine and my lords awn●… confession) although they all made with him/ as they do not. First he bringeth in the sin against the holy ghost. Mat. twelve. And paul. i Cor. three And. 1. Joan. 5. And apocalipsis. 5. which texts I pass over because I have answered unto them before in the second book/ against Master Moore. Rochestre THe first reason that my lord hath which Luce. 16. is not before soluted (for as I said y● reasons that are all ready dissolved will I now over hip) is this/ which he groundeth on diverse scriptures. Of the soul's that are departed/ some be all ready dampened in hell/ and some are all ready in heaven. And to prove this true he allegeth the parable of the rich man. Luce. xv .. I am sure, my lord is not so ignorant as to say that a parable proveth any thing. But the right use of a parable is this/ to expound an hard text or point that was before commanded and could not enter in to every man's capacity. ●…yther are all things like which are spoken in a similitude/ neither yet all things true that are touched in a parable: but we must consider the thing wherefore they be spoken/ and apply them only to that they are spoken for/ and let the residue go: as wyllyam Tindale hath well declared unto you in the parable of wicked 〈◊〉. This parable is very hard to be expounded. The cause is this/ no man can well espy by the text for what purpose it was spoken. But this should seem to be the cause/ that there were many of the pharisees and other multitude which would not believe the preaching●… of Christ although he confirmed his wor●…s with the authority of Moses and the prophets/ but they were curious and somedeal fantastical and therefore would they not believe his words except some apparitions had been made unto them that they might have been assured by them that were before deed that his words were true. Unto such it is like that he speaketh this parable/ plainly concluding that they should have no such appary●…yons of the deed/ and also that it was not ●…cessarye: but that they had Moses and the prophets/ to whom if they would g●…ue no credence/ then should ●…hey not 〈◊〉 leave although one of the deed should rise agay●… and tell it th●… notwithstanding let me grant it him/ that some are all ready in hell and some in heaven (which thing he shall never be able to prove by the scripture/ ye and which plainly destroyeth the resurrexion and taketh away the argu mentes wherewith christ and paul do prove that we shall rise) yet I say let me grant it him to see how he will conclude. what followeth on that Roche●… Neither it is credible (sayeth he) that all which are not cast in to hell should straight way go to heaven/ therefore must we put a purgatory where they may be purged. I answer/ All that live are faithful or unfaithful. Frith If he be unfaithful then is he dampened. joan. ●…ii. If he believe them is he not condemned/ but is go from death to life. joan. 3. 5 The rightwise man when he dieth shall rest in pe●…ce. Sapi. iii And every faithful man is right wise before god (as the hole pistle. to the Romans proveth: Ergo than every faithful man shall rest in peace and not be tormented in the pains of purgatory. And as touching this point where they rest/ I dare be bold to say that they are in the hand of god/ and that god would that we should be ignorant where they be/ and not to take upon us to determine the matter. Parad venture you would inquire of me (sith the parable sayeth that Lazarus rested in Abraham's bosom) what Abraham's bosom is? To that would I answer that Abraham's bosom were nothing else than Abraham's fayeth: for all we are called the children of Abraham because of his perfect faith which we aught to follow. in this faith are many 〈◊〉 in a manner infinite degrees notwithstanding if it beno greater than a 〈◊〉 sed that is to say very yet shall it save us. He that departeth in this faith rests in peace and waiteth for the last day when god shall give unto his faithful/ that is/ to his elect (for only are the elect faithful and the faithful elect) the crown of his glory which he hath prepared for them that love him. This crown doth paul say that he shall receive it in that day. 2. Timo. 4. that is in the day of judgement. And in the mean cea son god hath so provided for us/ that they shall wait untysl the numbered of their brethren which daily suffer and shall suffer for christ/ be ho lie fulfilled/ and so shall they not be made perfect with out us. Nebre. xi. If my lord will understand by Abraham's bosom heaven/ I will not be contentious/ let the christian judge which sentence seemeth most true. But this is once a clear case that of this he can prove no purgatory. For the unfaithful are all re●… die dampened/ and the faithful rest in peace/ let him call that what he will/ whether to rest in heaven or to rest in their sayeth until the last ☞ day. For I am sure there is no man so mad as to say/ that to rest in peace should sygnyfle to lie in the pains of purgatory. ●…urthermore/ this text shall rather make sore against him then any thing with ●…ym. For Lazarus/ whiles he was living was not without sin/ nor no man else. 1. Ioh annes. 1. so that no wan as long as he 1. 〈◊〉. 1. hath breath in his body can say that he is with out sin/ for than should he make. saint Johan a liar. And yet was not Lazarus carried in to purgatory to be purged of his sins which were remaining in his body the hour of his death: wherefore I may conclude that there is no such purgatory For god is as just unto him as unto us/ and therefore would he purge him as well as us/ and again he is as merciful unto us as unto him and will as well forgeus us as him/ with out broiling on the coals in purgatory: for his justice and mercy are ever one and not alterable. But our perfect purgation is the pure blood of Christ which washeth away the sin of the world. And albe it we ever have the remnants and dregs of sin/ and rebellion of our membres as long as we have life/ yet are they hoellye finished in death/ for of such efficac●… te is Christ's death/ that it hath turned the death of his faithful (which was laid upon us as the pain of sin) in to a medicine against sin whic●… fully cureth it and maketh an end of it/ as it was well figured in gol●…s that was slain with his own sword. 〈◊〉 where as my lord bringeth for hispur Rochestre posse Mat. twelve. that men shall give accoump Mat. 12. toes of every idle word/ I have soluted that be Frith fore against master Moore/ that I think he shall say himself that he is answered. For if men shall give a reckoning for them on the day of doom (as the text sayeth) that should rather argue that there were no purgatory wherein tho see sins should be purged/ for if they had been purged before of them/ then should they not give an accounts for them. And if it proved any thing at all/ it should prove that there were a purgatory after domesdaye which no man wa●… ever so foolish as to grant. But the true understanding of this text is this. There are two kinds of men one faith full/ the other unfaithful. The faithful thorough Faithful their faith in Christ's blood are all ready fully purged in their heart/ and their rebellious m●…res thorough death are hoellye subdued. The senior men shall give no reckoning neither of idle word nor evil deed. For all their sins are covered of Christ/ and his blood shall give the hoel accounts for them. The unfaithful unto Unfaithful their utter confusion shall have the book of their conscience opened and there shall be persecuted before them all their evil dendes words and thoughts. And these are they (that christ speaketh of) which shall give this great accoumpt●… Note also that in the text they are called men/ which word in scripture is ever Men for the most part taken in the worst sense/ and signifieth wicked men/ fleshly men/ and men that follow their own lusts and appetites ☜ ●…hen confirmeth he purgatory out of th●… Rochestre 〈◊〉. Psalm which sayeth/ we have gon●… thorough fire and water and thou hast brought 〈◊〉 Psal. 66. in to colenesse I am sure you have not forgote●… Frith that Master Moore allegeth the prophet zach●… zachari. 9 rye in the. ix. and affirmeth that there is no wa●… ter in purgatory. It were hard to make the●… two agre/ for when men ground them on a ly●… then for the most part their tales and proba●… onhis are contrary and will not well ●…onde 〈◊〉 gither. Nevertheless in one point they ag●… full well/ that is/ both of them say untrue: 〈◊〉 neither nother text serveth any whit for p●… ●…atorye. And as concerning the place of zachary: it is suffecientlye declared what it means. And now will I also declare you the understanding of this text/ and first that it can not serve for purgatory I vesech you that have the psalter once to rea●… the psalm and I think you shall wonder at their doting dreams and ignorance which allege this text for purgatory. The text●… of the psalm is this/ thou hast brought us in to a straight and jaded our backs with trouble or 〈◊〉. Thou hast set men upon our heeds/ we hau●… go thorough fire and water and thou hast led us out again in to a place of refreshing. The texts before and after in the same psalm will not suff●… that this place should be understand of purgatory. For the text immediately before sayeth/ thou hast set men upon our heeds: But the thefest defendars of purgatory (and even Mastre More himself) say that they are not men/ but devels which torment the souls in purgatory/ notwithstanding Moore and my lord of Rochestre Rochestre 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. (good man) affirmeth that they are angels which torment the souls there: but never man doted so far●…re as to say that men torment the souls in purgatory/ wherefore I may conclude that his text is not meant of purgatory/ but that the prophet meant that men ran over the children of israhel and subdued them/ and wrapped them in extreme troubles which in the scripture are signified by fire & water. Besides that the texts following will not admit that this should be vnder●…de of purgatory, for it followeth immediately/ I will minister in to thy house with burntofferinges/ I shall of free untoy ● fat sacrifices with the reek of wethers I shall burn to the oxen and goats. Now is there no man so mad as to think that the soul's of purgatory should offer unto god any such sacrifices. So that the text is plainly understand of the children of Israel which thorough the lord were delivered from their afflictions and enemies and then offered their loyal sacrifices of praise and thanks to the lord their shield and protection. NOw flieth my lord unto the church and sa Rochestre yeth/ that because the church hath affirmed it we must needs believe it/ for the church can not err. As thouchinge this point I will refer Frith you unto a work that wyllyam Tinda●… hath written against. M. Moore/ wherein you shall well perceive what the church of Christ is/ and that his church never determed any such thing. But that it is the synagogue of Satan that maketh articles of the faith and bindeth men's consciences further than the scripture will. THen waxeth his lordship somewhat hate Rochestre against Marten Luther/ Because he would y● no man should be comp●…led to believe purgatory. For my lord sayeth that it is profitable and well done to compel men to believe such things whether they will or will not. And to sta blish his opinion he plucketh out a word of the parable of luke. xiv. that a certain man made a Lucc. 14 great supper/ and said unto his servants/ go forth quyclye in 〈◊〉 the ways and compel ●…em to enter in. ●…erelye there Christ meant no nother thing Frith. / but that his apostles should go forth in to all the world and preach his word unto all nations/ opening unto them the miserable state and cond●…n that they be in/ and again what mercy god hath showed them in his son christ. This would Christ that his apostles should expound and say out so evidently by reasons/ scriptures and miracles unto the gentiles/ that they should even by their manifest persuasions be compelled to grant unto them that he was christ/ and to take upon them the faith that is in christ One this manner did Christ compel the saducees to grant the resurrection. Matthei. xxij. And by these means compelled he the Pharis●…s to grant in their consciences that he did his miracles with the power of god/ and yet astir ward of very hate knowing in their hearts the contrary/ they said that he did them by the power of the dev●…ll. Matthei. xii. But to say that Christ would have his disciples to compel men with presonment/ feters/ 〈◊〉 ging/ sword & fire is very false & far from the ●…enesse of a christian spirit/ although my lord approve it ne ver so much. For Christ did forbidden his disciples such tyranny/ 〈◊〉 & rebuked them because they would have desired that fire should descend from heaven to consume the Samaritans which would not receive Christ Luke. ix. But he commanded them that if men would not receive their doctrine/ they should depart from thence and sprinkle of the dust of their fet●… to be a testimony against the unfaithful that they had been there and preached unto them the word of Luc●…. 9 life: But with violence will god have no man compelled unto his law. Paul also testifieth. ij. Corin. 1. that he had not rule over the Corinthians as touching their faith. By our faith we stand in the lord/ and by o●…re infidelity we fall from him. As no man can search the heart but only god/ so can no man judge or order ou 〈◊〉 faith but only god thorough his holy sprete●… 〈◊〉/ faith is a gift of god/ which he destributeth at his own pleasure. 1. Cor. ●…ij. If he give it not this day/ he may give it to 1. Cor. 12 morrow. And if thou perceive by any exterior work that they neighbour have it not/ instruct him with god's word and pray god to give him grace to believe: and that is rather a point of a christian man then to compel a man by death or exterior violence. Hynallye/ what doth thy compulsion and violence? verily nothing but make a stark hypocrite. For no man can compel the heart to believe a thing/ except it see evidence and sufficient proof. I have hard tell of a boy which was present at his father's burning for his believe/ and assoon as the officers had espied the boy they said to each other/ Let us take him and examine him also/ parad venture we shall find him as great an heretic as his father. When th●… boy saw that his father was deed/ and that the catchpoles began to snatch at him. he was sore dismayed and thought that he should die to. And when one of them opposed him asking him how he believed/ he answered: Master/ I believe even as it pleaseth you. Even so by torments and crafty handling a man may be compel●…ed to say that he beleveth the thing which he neither thinketh nor yet can believe. For a man's faith is not in his own power. But how doth god accept this thing/ to say that I believe that which in deed I believe not? Vere lie he utterly condemneth it whether the opinion be true or false. For if the opinion be true (as by example that the faith in Christ's blood iustefyeth me before god) and I confess it before all the bysshopes in engloude with my mouth and believe it not with mine heart/ then am I nothing the better (for I should have no part of Christ's blood) but I am much the worse. For first god condemneth me/ which judgeth me after mine heart/ and also mine own heart condemneth me because I have openly granted that mine heart devyeth. And contrary wise/ if I should believe this fully in inyne heart/ ad yet for fear of persecution should deny it when I were examined open lie of my faith/ then shall I be condemned of god (except I repent) and also mine own heart shallbe a witness to condemn me. And so is it ver●…e noisome and ungodly to be compelled unto any thing/ for god ever searcheth the heart which can not be compelled. ☜ BUt my lord objecteth writing upon the Eochestre xvii●…. article saying: If a man take away purgatory/ for what intent shall we need any Pardons pardons? As long (sayeth he) as no man regarded purgatory/ there was no man that sought any pardon/ for all the estimation of pardons hangs thereof/ so that we shall have no need of them/ if there be no purgatory. verily I care not though I grant him Frith. that to. And I think that Money was the mother of them both. For out of the scripture shall he be able to prove neither nother. But mammon is a great god/ even of power enough to invent such knacks/ ye and to make them articles of the faith/ & to ●…urne those that can not believe them. And it was a preatye practise to make such points articles of the faith/ for after that our holy fathers had given up preaching & would take no more pains/ neither serve their brethren any more/ than set they up such articles of the faith as should bring in more nigh to uppholde their estate with all. And he that would not believe them/ rid him out of the way for fear of disclosing their juggling/ for h●… that doubteth of pardons & purgatory/ he plucketh our holy father by the beerde. NOtwithstoudinge my lord confirmeth both 〈◊〉 pardons & purgatory/ by the text y● christ spoke unto Peter Mat. xuj. To the will I give the hays of the kingdom of heaven/ & what so 〈◊〉 thou bindest v●…on the earth it shallbe bou●… the in h●…adē/ & what so ever thou losest on y● erthit shallbe loosed 〈◊〉 heaven. But these words (saith my lord) had been spoken in vain if h●… could not give pardons and lose men out of purgato●…ye. etc. ●…s touching the keys/ albe it they hau●… 〈◊〉. often times been declared & in a manner in every treatise that hath been put forth in the english tongue yet will I sum what show my mind it●… them. There is but one kaye of heaven which Christ calleth the kaye of knowiege Luc. xj. And this kaye is the word of god. Christ rebuked y● 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ●…u. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for taking away this kaye from the people/ for they with their traditions/ & false expositions had fully excluded the kaye of knowledge which is the word of god & had clean s●…utte v●… the scripture as ours have done now adays. It is also called the kaye of david which shutteth & no man openath/ ope●…eth and no man ●…hutteth Apo. iij. And because of these two effects Apo. 3. which it worketh (for it both shutteth & openeth) hath it the domination of keys/ & yet (as I said) in deed it is but one/ which is the word of god. This kaye or keys (now call it as you will sith you know what it means) Christ delivered unto Peter & unto his other apostles a like/ which you shall easily perceive if you mark where & when they were given. For mat Mat. 16. xuj. they were only promised & not yet given/ for Christ said I will give the the keys/ & not I give the. But after he was risen from death than performed he his promiss & gave the keys to all indifferently as thou maistse johan. xx. johan. 20 and luke in the. xxiv. expoundeth it/ that he opened Luc. 24. their wits to understand the scripture that repentance & forgiveness might be preached. &c. Therefore it is the word that bindeth and loseth thorough the preaching of it. For when thou tellest them their vices & iniquities condemnige them by the law/ then bindest thou them by the word of god/ & when thou preachest mercy in Christ unto all that repent/ then dost thou lose them by the word of god. Therefore he that preacheth not the word of god/ can neither bind nor loose/ ☜ no/ though he call himself pope. And contrary wise/ he that preacheth his word he bindeth & looseth even as well as Peter & Paul/ although he be called but Sir John of the country. And consequently/ to say that he pope can deliver any soul out of purgatory (if there were one) is but a vain lie/ except he can prove that he goeth down unto them & preach unto them the word of god (which is the salt that must ceason them & kaye y● must let them out) for other losing is tho●… nove. And likewise/ to say that the 〈◊〉 can give any pardon to redeem sins/ except he preach me that Christ's blood hath perdoned me/ is even like vanity. 〈◊〉 thinketh also that he wadeth to deep to descend to purgatory by this text. For the ●…at. 16. text sayeth/ that what so ever he bindeth on earth shallbe bound in heaven and what so ever he loseth on earth. &c. But now they grant themselves that purgatory is not on earth/ but the third place in hell: And therefore it passeth his bonds to stretch his hand to purgatory: and so this text can not serve him. ☜ NOt withstanding my lord is not content Rochestre to give him this power only/ but he hath so far waded in the pope's power/ that he hath granted him full authority to deliver all men from hell (if they be notdampned all ready) for (sayeth he) who so ever have committed a capitale crime hath ther●… deserved damnation/ and yet may the pope deliver him both from the crime and also from the pain due unto it/ ●…ud he affer●…eth that. iij. times in the. xxj. article for fear of forgetting. Upon this point will I a little reason with 〈◊〉 my lord/ and so will I make an end. If the pope may deliver any man from the crime that 〈◊〉 hath committed and also from the pain due unto it/ as you affirm/ then may he by the same authority deliver. xx. an hundred/ a thousand 〈◊〉/ ye and all the world: for I am sure you can show me no reason why he may deliver some and not all. If he can do it/ then let him veliver ●…erye man that is in the point of death both from the crime and from the pain/ and so shall never man more neither enter in to hell nor yet in to purgatory: which were the best deed and most charitablest that ever he did/ ye and this aught he to do (if he could) although it should ●…ost him his own life and soul thereto (as More says and Paul give him ensample) but yet there Exodi. 32. is no jeopardy of neither nother. Now if he Rom. 9 can do it (as you say) & will not/ then is he the most wretched and cruel tyrant that ever lived/ even the very son of perditio and worthy to be dampened in an hundred thousand hells. For if he have received such power of god that he may save all men and yet will not/ but suffer so many to be dampened/ I report me unto yourselves what he is worthy to have? Now if any man would solute this reason and say that he may do it/ but that it is not meet for him to do it/ because that by their pains gods justice may be satisfied: I say that this their evasion is nothing worth/ neither yet 〈◊〉 I imagine any way whereby they may have any appearance to escape. For my lord sayeth himself that the pope must pacify god's justice for every soul that he delyvereth from purgatory: and therefore hath he imagined that the pope hath in his hand the merits of Christ's passion which he may apply at his pleasure where he will. And also he sayeth that the merits of Christ's passion are sufficient to redeem all the sins in the world. Now sith these merits on their part are sufficient to sati●…ye the ●…ustice of god and 〈◊〉 the hoel world/ and also that the pope hath them in his hand to distribute at his pleasure: then lacketh there ☜ no more but even the pope's distribution 〈◊〉 the salvation of the hoel world. For he 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 god's wrath and satisfy his justice (sayeth my lord) by ●…lyinge these merits to them that lack good works. And so if that pope will/ god's justice may be fully satisfye●… and the hoel world saved. Now if he may so ius●… lie and 〈◊〉 save the hoel world (charity all so moving him unto it) and yet will not apply these merits so fruitfully/ then is the fault 〈◊〉 lie his/ and he the son of perdition and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 more pain than can be imagined. And 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not the 〈◊〉 improved but ●…och more 〈◊〉 〈◊〉/ and as I think inevitable. Behold I pray you whother my lord 〈◊〉 Rochestre hath brought our holy father 〈◊〉 advancing his power in 〈◊〉/ even in to y● 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of hell ●…hich (〈◊〉 my lord say 〈◊〉 it is impossible for him to avoid. But 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 unto him even as it doth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 such pride reigneth: for wha●… they are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉/ then fall they down headlong unto 〈◊〉 utter confusion and ruin. If any 〈◊〉 feal him 〈◊〉 greaved and not yet fully satisfied in this 〈◊〉 let him write his mind/ and by god's grace I shall make him answer/ & that with speed. ☜ Pray Christian reader that the word of god ma●… increase. ☜ Amen.