AN ANSWER TO GEORGE GIFFORDS' PRETENDED DEFENCE OF READ PRAYERS AND DEVIsed Leitourgies with the ungodly cavils and wicked slanders comprised in the first part of his book entitled, A SHORT TREATISE against the Donatists of England. BY JOHN GREENWOOD CHRIST'S POOR AFFLICTED prisoner in the Fleet at London, for the truth of the gospel. 1590. To the Christian Reader/ grace and peace from God our Father and jesus Christ our Lord. BEcause Prayer unto God is a most Christian exercise and fruit of faith/ being rightly used: having so many commandments and promises concerning it in the Scripture: by which we come most near unto God/ as in any other part of his worship/ speaking to him (as it were) mouth to mouth/ when we lift up our hearts and power forth our requests unto the Lord: it was thought needful/ seeing these latter Treatises of Mr. Greenwood's touching this Argument are now published again/ and his first concerning it cannot be had/ here therefore to note down briefly a few things both concerning the doctrine and right use of prayer: and in particular concerning read prayer/ by means whereof it is come to pass that true prayer is so much unknown/ neglected/ and profaned. And this we pray thee (Christian Reader) to take in good part/ and to examine up the word of God/ which is the only rule of truth/ and light of our feet in the darkness of this World. Prayer is the lifting up off the heart unto God/ to call upon his name/ with faith/ by the work and help of his Spirit. Psal. 25.1. Rom. 10 1; .14. Mat. 21.22. Rom. 8.26.27. Prayer is either with words/ or without words. With words/ being uttered in speech/ either publicly or privately: either in more or fewer words: yet alway briefly: according ●o the present and several occasions. Exod. 32.11.12.13. Ezra. 9.6.15/2. ●am. 7.18.29. and 15.31. Mat. 26.39 joh. 17. chap. Act. 1.24.25. and 4.24.30. Heb. 13.15. Without words/ being conceived only in the mind/ and so presented before the Lord who knoweth the thoughts and secrets of the heart. Exod. 14.15/●. Sam. 1.12.13. Esa. 38.14. Prayer is either Request or Thanksgiving. Both these are either for ourselves/ or for others. Request for ourselves/ is deprecation or supplication: for others/ intercession. 1. Tim. 2.1. Deprecation is for some evil to be kept or removed by the Lord from us. Mat. 6.13. and 8.24.25. Psal. 70. Gen. 32.9.12/2. Cor. 12.8. Iam. ●. 13. Supplication is for some good thing to be granted or continued of God unto us. Mat. 6.9.12. Gen. 24.12. Exod. 33.12.13. Psal. 4.6. Luk. 11.13. and 17.5. Intercession is for others/ either for some good to be given/ or some evil to be taken from them. Mat. 6.9.11.12. and 5.44. Exod. 32.11.12. 13. Ephes. 6.18.19.20. Rom. 15.30.31.32. jam. 5.14.18/1. joh. 5.16. Thanksgiving is the yielding of praise and thanks unto God for his mercy and benefits either given or promised. M●.. 6●9. 13. Gen. 24.27. Exo. 15.1.21. Psa. 69.29.36. and 103.1.5: joh. 11.41. 1. Tim. 1.17. Re. 7. 1● Prayer is to be made always and only in the Mediation of Christ. joh. 14.13.14.1. Tim. 2.5. Not that this need alway to be mentioned/ but that we ought alway to come before God and present ourselves/ and our prayers unto him with faith in the Mediation of Christ ● by whom alone/ we and all our sacrifices are made acceptable unto God. For in him are all the promises of God yea and Amen. 2. Cor. 1.20. Through him are all the graces and mercies of God conveyed unto us joh. 1.16. Ephes. 4.7. By his Mediation our prayers being presented before his Father/ all the weakness/ want of faith love hope/ and any other corruption wherewith our prayers (as they proceed from us) be distained/ are covered and taken away. Because he putteth the sweet odour of his Mediation unto our prayers/ and so presenting them to his Father/ they are accepted of him. Rev. 8.3.4. with Exod. 30.7.8. Psal. 141.2 Mar. 9.22.23.24/1. Pet. 2.5. For this cause therefore/ must prayer/ in faith/ alway respect God's promise/ and Christ's Mediation. Mar. 11.24. Psal. 50.15. Rom. 8.34. Heb: 7.25. and 9.24. And for the same cause/ must the person that prayeth first be accepted of God in Christ/ before their prayers and sacrifices can be approved. Rev. 1.5.6/1. Pet. 2.5. Prov. 15.8, Hag. 2.13.14.15. Gen. 4.3.4.5. and 6.8. and 8.20.21. with Heb. 11.4.7. Whereupon we are bound to be careful/ first ourselves to be in the true faith and Church of Christ/ under his Mediation/ that we may ourselves be accepted of the Father in him: and then in faith to offer our prayers/ both for matter and manner/ so as we have warrant by the word of God/ that he will hear us/ and that Christ will be our Mediator/ therein. For which see the Scriptures a foresaid: and Mat. 6.9 Ephes. 2.19. and 4.4.5.6. Act. 2.41.47. Exo. 30.9. Levi. 17.3.7. Deut. 12.5.8. Psal. 16.4. and 50.8.14.16 17.23. Esa. 1.12. etc. Mal. 1.14/1. Tim. 2.1.2.5.8. jam. 1.5.8. john 5. 13.14. Rev. 8.3.4. For our better direction and assurance herein/ hath Christ given that form of prayer/ which is commonly called the Lords prayer. Mat. 6. 9.13. Luk. 14.1.2.3.4. Where he hath prescribed a direction for the framing of all our prayers both for matter and manner according to that rule. For in it we are taught/ as touching the matter of all our prayers/ that they be for things first and chiefly concerning God's glory/ and then concerning our good/ so as will stand with the glory of God. joh. 12.27.28. And touching the manner of prayer/ that it be in faith hope and love/ with reverence/ briefly and humbly propounded/ that he in all may be glorified. In faith (I say) both of God's willingness to hear and help/ as being our Father in Christ/ and of his ability thereunto as being in heaven able to do whatsoever he will. Esa. 63.16. Psal. 115.3. In hope/ of his mercy and favour towards us/ he being our Father and we his children in Christ. Luc. 11.9.13. In love both off God and one off another/ in Christ. Psa. 116.1. Mar. 11.25.26. Act. 4.24. With reverence/ as coming before our heavenly Father/ who is full off glory and Majesty/ he in heaven/ we on earth etc. And therefore also ought our prayers briefly and hunbly to be propounded: not seeking after long or affected speech/ nor using vain repetitions etc. Mat. 6.7.8.9. Genes. 18.27. Exood. 34.8.9. Ecclesiast. 5.1. And note here/ that Christ hath propounded this direction/ not by way off exhortation or doctrine/ as in other cases he was wont/ but in form off petitions/ and those very brieff: Lest otherwise we should have doubted that we might not with such confidence in few words have spoken directly unto God himself: but that we must have used either mediators for us/ as the Papists/ or sighs only without words as the Anabaptists/ or never ceasing from prayer/ as the Eutychians/ or at least some long circumstance off words and great affectation of speech or the like/ as ignorance/ superstition/ and hypocrisy are ready to lead unto. Finally/ in this form off prayer/ by Christ we are taught/ that the end and scope off all our prayers/ aught to be the glory God in Christ. And that therefore we pray alway/ with submission off ourselves and our requests unto his will/ who being King and Lord over all/ knoweth and will perform what he seeth best for his glory and our good. Mat. 6.13. And thus prayer conceived or uttered in five words/ is better than ten thousand otherwise/ as the Apostle speaketh of prayer in another case/ 1. Cor. 14.19. Now the help which God hath promised and giveth unto us in prayer is his Spirit. Which is as the fire/ quickening and stirring up our spirit to and in prayer: given of God unto us for the helping off our infirmities/ that we by it in faith should call upon the Lord our Father in Christ: Rom. 8.26.27. Gal. 4.6. with Exod. 30.7.8. And this fitly agreeth with the nature of God/ who as he is a Spirit in himself/ so will he off us be worshipped in Spirit and truth. joh. 4.24. Ephes. 6.18. Other helps as off praying upon a book/ or of beads/ or the like/ read we not any appointed by God. Many times in deed we read in the Scripture off the prayers off the faithful made to the Lord/ but never off any one that read their prayers upon a book or reckoned them upon beads etc. And no marvel/ seeing the Lord did never either command to use/ or promise to accept such service off him. Therefore must it needs be/ that book prayers/ etc. are an invention off man/ and a vain worship off God. Exod. 20.4.5.6. Esaie 29.13. Matthe. 15.9. Neither can this stand with the nature and duties off prayer/ before mentioned: But in deed breedeth and nourisheth both ignorance and neglect off true prayer/ as by lamentable experience may be seen. But into this point we will not now further enter/ seeing it is sufficiently handled in these Treatises which were purposely written concerning it. Only because Mr. Henry Barrow (who was Mr. Gremewoods fellow prisoner and fellow Martyr) hath also written of this point/ and namely concerning the book of common prayer particularly in some books of his/ which now are scant to be gotten/ we thought it good likewise/ from thence to annex these few lines following concerning it. Mr. Barrow therefore in his discovery of the false Church/ speaking of the book of common prayer/ writeth thus: Pag. 64.65.66.67. This book/ in that it standeth a public prescript continued liturgy/ as iff it were the best that ever was devised by mortal man/ yet in this place and use/ being brought into the Church/ yea or into any private house/ it becometh a detestable idol/ standing for that it is not in the Church of God and consciences of men: namely/ for holy/ spiritual/ and faithful prayer/ it being nothing less/ but rather abominable and loathsome sacrifice in the sight of God/ even as a dead dog, Levi. 1.2.3/4. Chapt. Now under the law/ might neither any corrupt or any unlawful sacrifice/ with any seen blemish/ be offered at the Altar/ neither any part of any beast (though whiles/ it lived never so sufficient) being slain before it be brought unto the Altar/ it was abomination unto the Lord: Every sacrifice must be brought quick and new unto the Altar/ and there be slain every morning and evening: 1. Cor. 6/19. 1. Petri 2/5. 〈◊〉. 21: 10. ●om. 12.1. how much more in this spiritual Temple of God/ where the offerings are spiritual/ and God hath made all his servants Kings/ and priests/ to offer up acceptable sacrifices unto him/ through jesus Christ/ who hath thereunto given them his holy spirit into their hearts/ to help their infirmities/ and teach them to cry Abba Father. Rom. 8/26.15 Ephe. 4 7.8 etc. How much more hath he which ascended/ given graces to those his servants (whom he useth in such high services) to the repairing of the Saints/ the work of the ministery/ and the edification of the church? unto whom God useth them/ as his mouth: the Church again on the other side/ useth than as their mouth unto the Lord. Isa. 28/9. etc. Hebr. 5.13 Shall we think that God hath any time left these his servants so singly furnished and destitute off his grace/ they cannot find words according to their necessities and faith/ to express their wants and desires/ but need thus to be taught line unto line/ as children new weaned from the breasts/ what and when to say/ how much to say/ and when to make an end/ to say this collect at the beginning/ that at the end/ that before/ the tother after/ this in the morning/ that at after noon etc. How like children/ or rather like masking fools are these great clerks dressed? ●/ Corin. 3/2 show they not hereby/ that either they have no faith/ or else are such infant's/ as they have more need to be fed/ than to divide the portion unto others? Heb. 4/16 2/ Eph. 3/12 Know they trow we/ what prayer or the spirit of God meaneth? Prayer I take to be a confident demanding which faith maketh thorough the holy Ghost/ according to the will of God/ for their present wants/ estate etc. How now ca● any read/ prescript/ stinted liturgy, which was penned many years or days before/ be said a pouring forth of the heart unto the Lord? or those faithful requests which are stirred up in them/ by the holy Ghost/ accordingly to their present wants and estate of their hearts/ or Church? 1 john. 2/●. Ephes. 6/18. Phil. 4/6 The whole book of Psalms Lament. 3.40.41. joel ●/14 Moses 14/●. Prov. 4/18/19. Luke 11/2●/ unless they can say/ that their hearts and Church stand in the same estate now/ and so still to their lives end shall continued/ without either further increase or decrease/ change or alteration/ as they did them: yea/ that their children's children shall also so continued/ to whom they leave and incommend this liturgy, unto the worlds end. What a strange estate is this/ that always thus standeth/ at a stay? The way of the righteous (Solomon saith) shineth as/ the light/ that shineth more and more unto the perfect day: as on the contrary/ the way of the wicked is as the darkness/ they know not wherein they shall fall. Our Saviour Christ saith/ that if we gather not/ we scatter. 1 Petri 2/2 Ephes. 4/13. The Apostle Peter willeth the new borne babes to desire the sincere milk of the word/ that they may grow thereby: until they come to the measure of the age of the fullness of Christ saith the Apostle Paul. Now then if they and their church increase not in the measure of knowledge/ grace/ holiness/ etc. it is an infallible sign that they have not the Spirit of God. If they do increase why then is not God served with his own best gifts? Is not the judgement of the Prophet then upon them/ which saith/ cursed be the deceiver/ with hath in his flock a male/ yet voweth and sacrificeth unto the Lord a corrupt thing. Mala. 1/14. Is this old rotten leitourgiss their new songs they sing unto te Lord with and for his graces? May such old written rotten stuff be called prayer/ the odours of the Saints/ burnt with that heavenly fire of the Altar/ the lively graces of the Spirit etc. may reading be said praying? may such apocryphas trumpery be brought into the Church off God/ and there be read/ reverenced and received/ as the sacred word of God? thrust upon men's consciences/ yea upon God himself whether he will or no? Is not this presumptuously to undertake to teach the spirit of God? and to take away his office/ which (as hath been said) instructeth all the children of God to pray/ even with inward sighs and groans inexpressible/ and giveth both words and utterance/ yea and (as the Apostle John saith) we need no other teacher to these things/ then that anointing which we have received/ and dwelleth in us. Ronvere 8/26 26/27 1/ joh. 2/27 Is not this) if they will have their written stuff to be held and used as prayer) to bind the holy Ghost to the froth and leaven of their lips/ as it were to the holy word of God? Is it not utterly to quench and extinguish the spirit off God/ both in the ministery and people/ whiles they tie both them and God to their stinted numbered prayers? Is this the unity and uniformity that ought to be in all Churches? and is amongst all Christ's servantes/ to make them agree in a stinking patchery devised apocryphas leitorgie, good for nothing but for cushsions and pillows for the idle priests/ and profane carnal Atheists to rock them a sleep and keep them in security/ whereby the conscience is no way either touched/ edified/ or bettered? Truly I am ashamed to think/ much more to write of so gross and filthy abomination/ so generally received/ even of all estates/ of these parts of the world/ who have by a popish custom and tradition received it one off/ and from an other/ without any warrant from the word. For the Apostles (I am sure) these master bvilder's/ have left no such precedent in/ or commandement unto the churches/ neither given them any such power to bring in or set up any such apocryphas liturgy in the church of God. 1. Tim. 2.1. Hebr. 13.15. Ephes. 6.18 Philip. 4/6 1. Cor. 14/15 john. 4.24 They always used spiritual prayers according to their present wants and occasions/ and so taught all churches to pray/ always/ with all manner off prayer and supplication in the spirit/ and thereby to make known their wants/ and show their requests in all things unto God their heavenvly father: Our Saviour Christ also/ he taugt his disciples/ that God is a Spirit/ and will be worshipped in spirit and truth. He hath likewise set down most excellent rules/ and a most absolute form for all prayers in that part of scripture Mat. 6.9.10.11.12.13. commonly (but falsely) called the Lord's prayer: wherein he hath most notably instructed/ directed/ and restrained our ignorant and inordinate desires/ to those excellent heads. In which/ whatsoever is needful for us to desire/ or lawful for us to pray/ is in some one or other of those branches included: every one off the being a base and foundation/ whereupon and whereby to frame many millions of several petitions/ according to the several wants and occasions/ at such several times as the saints have cause to pray. They are all of them/ so many everrunning fountains from which Gods servants by the holy Ghost/ derive and draw continually fresh and new graces: and are all together such an abysm and unmeasured ●ea of wisdom/ from which all Christ's servants through the world/ have always fetched all their knowledge/ grace's/ comfort/ and assurance of and in their prayers (according to the capacity of the vessel of their faith) some more/ some less/ all some/ yet have not all of them together/ much less any one of them is able in the little dish of his shallow understanding/ to comprise the unmeasurable depth and greatness of this Ocean of all wisdom and grace. Whereby it is evident/ as also by the circumstances and manner of delivering the same by our Saviour Christ/ by his Apostles/ Disciples and Churches spiritual use of prayer according to their present estate and wants/ that these prescript words were not given or enjoined as a prescript prayer/ so to be used by any/ even the wisest/ much less the simpler/ unbroken up/ unexpounded/ etc. so much as a compendious summary of all necessary knowledge/ and rules for all prayer/ gathered (by the Author of all wisdom) into a brief/ for the direction and instruction of our weakness and ignorance. Of which ends and uses/ whiles some are ignorant/ or rather (as their gross idolatry/ carnal dullness/ and superstitious presumption showeth) are ignorant either what faithful prayer/ or the spirit of God is: whiles they both popishly abuse this Scripture as a principal collect in their public liturgy/ with their often and idle repetition thereof/ five times in their morrow mass/ etc. and/ also through this abuse they grow further bold to mould a new calf/ a new liturgy of their own/ and set that up also in the church of God/ as they count it. If it were granted them/ that this scripture/ and sundry psalms/ and other scriptures they allege out of the prophets/ were commanded and enjoined to be read and used/ as/ and for the very prayers of the church and of the Saints (than which nothing can be more false or grossly fond to conceive) yet which way (if this were granted them) can they hereby prove it lawful for them to bring in th●ir ow●e apocryphas devices/ and set them up in the church as and with the holy canonical word of God? May their stinking filth be compared or placed with the heavenvly lively word of God/ without unsufferable blasphemy? may the froth of their lips/ and folly of their hearts be thrust upon men's consciences/ yea even upon the Spirit of God himself in this manner? In the church of God may nothing come/ or be heard/ but the canonical scriptures and lively graces of Gods Spirit/ according to the same. But these their apocryphas Leitourgies/ can neither be said the word of God/ neither the lively graces of God's spirit according to the same word/ seeing they were made and conceived long before/ and are wholly thus used/ without warrant/ example or commandment in the word of God/ yea are contrary to the rules of and for prayer/ to the exercise and use of God's Spirit/ and directly set against all the laws of the first Table/ by worshipping God in vain/ afther their own traditions/ precepts/ and devises/ and not according to his holy Will/ and commandement. And again/ in his Refutation of Mr. Giffard/ he briefly summeth up in general/ some especial reasons against the common prayer book afore said/ besides the discussing of it in particular from point to point. His reasons concerning it in general/ he thus propoundeth/ Refutat. pag. 49.50. 1. In that they presume to give and enjoin their prescript words in prayer, they take the office of the holy Ghost a way, quench the spirit of the ministry, and of the whole Church, stop and keep out the graces of God, thrust their own idle devises upon the whole Church, yea upon God himself whether he will or no: 2. In that by their liturgy they prescribe what and how much to read, at Morn to their Matins, at Even etc. teaching the church and ministry to pray by number, slint, and proportion, it is not only popish, but most frivolous and vain, disgracing and not instructing the Church and ministery: 3. In that by this their liturgy they prescribe unto the Church what Scriptures publicly to read and when to read them, as these Chapters and Psalms at their matins before noon, those at afternoon etc. On all the days that they have public meetings and service through the year, and so from year to year. They thereby take from the Church the ●olie and free use both of the Scriptures and spirit off God. They thereby conceal and shut out of the Church a great part off God's holy word which they read not. As also abuse without order those Scriptures they enjoin to be read: 4. In that they shred, rend, and dismember the scriptures from the holy Order and natural sense of their context, to make them Epistles, Gospels, Lessons, select Psalms, to their festivals and idol worship abovesaid, They most heinously pervert and abuse the Scriptures to the high dishonour of God & their own fearful judgement. 5. In that they bring in and command the Apocrypha writings to be publicly read in the Church: They both maintain and publicly teach the dangerous errors therein contained, to the poisoning and subverting of the faith of the church. They thrust these devises of men into the place of God's word, causing the people thereby to reverence and esteem them as the holy Oracles of God, of like authority, dignity, and truth, and to resort unto them to build their faith thereupon, and thereby they bring in an other foundation into the Church: besides the high injury done unto God thereby: 6. Finally in that by this their liturgy they bring in, erect, and enjoin a new & strange kind of administration, as is above proved in the particulars: They make and erect a new Gospel, and so must needs also erect unto it a new ministry. For the ministry of Christ is only bound unto, and will only administer by Christ's Testament wherein they have a most perfect liturgy for the whole administration of his Church. Therefore this present liturgy and ministry of England: are by all these reasons in general and particular found and proved at once to be counterfeit, ungodly, and Antichristian. Hitherto Mr. Barrow/ and much more in his books afore named/ as the reader there may find. Now to conclude/ the end of publishing these things/ is to stir up all that fear God/ seriously to mind what true prayer is/ and to be careful to use it aright/ according to the word off God/ which in all things/ faith (without which it is imyossible to please God) must alway respect and build upon. Rom. 10.17. and 14.23. Heb. 11.6. josh. 1.7.8. That so we may in this/ as in all other duties of godliness/ learn to perform it so as whereby we may be comforted of God/ and God may be glorified off us/ in jesus Christ. 1603. FINIS. ¶ TO THE CHRISTIAN READER. touching the treatises following, know (Good Reader) that Mr. GREENWOODS first writing concerning read prayer etc. was by the Prelates taken from him. Whereupon he desired Mr. GIFFORD, who written against him and had the copy of it, to publish it also to the world. But he would not do it: and so by their means it yet remaineth suppressed. For what cause, thou mayest well conjecture with thyself. These things, Mr. GREENWOOD himself signifieth here in the Treatise ensuing. Now if by any means that first of his come into thy hands, be thou entreated, for the truth's sake, either thyself to publish it, or to deliver it to such as will: That so the whole matter and carriage of it may better appear to all men, for the ●urther manifestation of the truth in this behalf. In the mean time, these are published for thy benefit. The Lord give thee so to use them. as may be for his praise, and thy comfort in Christ: Remembering always, that he is Mediator, not for any false worship whatsoever, but for that only which is according to his word. Which point well minded (as it ought) would soon end the question here controverted, and all other the like: with all such as fear God▪ Mind it therefore, and so farewell in the Lord. The preface 1. Cor. 2. 11. What man knoweth the things of a man if not the Spirit of man which is in himself: Even so the things of GOD knoweth no man if not the Spirit of God. 12. Now we have received not the Spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God, that we might know the things of GOD given unto us. 13. Which things we also speak, not in the words taught of man's wisdom, but in words taught of the Holy Ghost, we compare spiritual things to spiritual things. My first writing being about that spiritual exercise of prayer and true invocation of God's reverend name, whereby the distressed soul of man, loaden with the burden of sin, compassed also about with so many deceitful enemies, continual assaults of Satan, rebellion of the flesh, enticements of the world etc. seeketh daily help of God the Father, giver of all good gifts, having through. JESUS CHRIST free access by the direction of his holy spirit, for all occasions to unburden it self of whatsoever grief, or occasion of thanks it is moved with: I ought still▪ and by God's assistance shall keep me in the meekness of the spirit, not witstanding his unchristian railings, slanders, and reproaches against me and the truth. I than showed that no other prayer could utter and ease the several occasions and distresses of this conscience▪ and that no other man's writing could speak for this soul unto God, but the heart and mouth of him that prayeth for himself, or is chosen the mouth of many, uttering to God his or their minds for their present wants or occasions of thanks giving, according to the will of God, as need and occasion urgeth, and the spirit giveth utterance. And I further proved that only this prayer pleaseth God, and is grounded of faith; to this effect I brought many reasons out of God's word, admiring the ignorance of this age, wherein (having had the gospel of Christ thus many years in our own language to search and try all things by) whole congregations do make no other prayer to God then reading over certain numbers of words upon a book from year to year, month to month, day to day etc. the same matter and words as they were stinted, even out of that Port●is, englished out of antichrist's mass-book; besides private reading of men's writings instead of praying. And seeing this counterfeit show of worship and pretended prayers was made common merchandise in every assembly by this Antichristian priesthood, and that all men every where were compelled to bow down hereunto, and to offer by such counterfeit sacrifices; I perceived the first principle of Religion (which is to invocate the name of the true God, through the meditation of Christ in spirit and truth, with heart and voice, for our present wants according to the will of God) was never yet sincerely taught by these timeserving Priests: But as an agreeable service to the humours of earthly minded men which have not the spirit of God, this ware was thrust upon all people, they well knowing, that such a ministery and such a Church of worldlings could never have stood, without such a Samaritan worship and Egyptian calf; and like earthly devised to counterfeit a Religion, all men inclined to some. And long have I heard this pretended worship inveyed against by many (sometimes zealous) for the errors and confused order thereof: Yet could I not hear any to set down or teach, which was the true prayer that only pleased God, many contriving divers forms of words, as though they had known the heart of man, counseled them to read them, day unto day, year unto year, at evening, morning, dinner, Supper etc. by portion, measure, and stint, as an offering to God what state soever the soul were in; not teaching the difference between reading upon a book, and prayer unto God, all this tyme. So that true and only prayer hath not been taught all this time, and those that knew how to pray aright neglect it, this reading being most easy as they think, and they attest thereunto, compelled in the public assemblies thus to mock with God, after the manner of the papists matins, true zeal no where found, but in the persequted remnant. These my first writings, carried abroad by such as desired true instruction, and willing to make others partakers of such benefits as God imparted unto them, it fell into Mr. GIFFORDS' hand; Who (as it seemeth being a merchant of such ware▪ finding the gain of the priesthood to depend here upon, or as he saith (the peace & uniformity of the Church) made head unto it; and that not with purpose (as the fruit of his labour showeth) to edify others, but standing himself a minister to this Liturgy, having made shipwreck of that conscience he sometimes was thought to have; with all bitterness of spirit, and carnal wisdom, having no more savour of grace in his writings, than there is taste in the white of an egg, fleeth upon me with uncharitable railings, slanders etc. And loadeth not only me, but all the faithful that walk by the rule of God's word, with opprobrious titles, of Donatists, Brownists, Anabaptists, Heretics, Schismatics, seditious, foolish, frantic, etc. to bring not only us, but the truth of God into contempt with our Sovereign Prince, and all that fear God: for he ceaseth not with laying all reproaches he can devise upon our persons; as one of those Locusts, Reu. 9 whose similitudes are like unto horses prepared to battle, whose faces like men, but their teeth as the teeth of Lions; But also perverteth, blaspheameth, and by all means defaceth the truth offered him. Well seeing the natural man perceaveth not the things of the spirit of God▪ (I speak not here of the gifts of the spirit but of the grace of God which sanctifieth the same, many having Charismata that have not Charin.) And seeing I am already thus rend, God's truth delivered by me, trodden under his feet, I will follow the council of Solomon who forewarneth me that he which reproveth a scorner receiveth to himself shame, and he that rebuketh the wicked himself a blot: And so turn me from him, leaving him to the consideration of his own words: where he saith in his Epistle to the reader, He that seemeth most zealous in Religion and refraineth not his tongue, hath but bitterness in his heart in stead of heavenly zeal. And though nothing else can be looked for at their hands that are Apostate from that light they have sometimes themselves published, (of which sort the world was never more full) yet for the good of Gods chosen scattered abroad, and for the defence of God's truth I cannot hold my tongue: And for the more plainness, I will answer as to him, though I mind not to have any more to do with him, till God give him repentance. Wishing grace by the direction of God's holy spirit to him that readeth, to weigh both sides uprightly, and to follow the truth to his own salvation. IO. GRENWOOD. GEORGE GIFFORD. To condemn and overthrow read prayer, ye bring as the ground or foundation of all your matter, this Sentence, GOD is a Spirit and to be worshipped in Spirit. john. 4. This Scripture in deed is clear and strong to cut down all Carnal worship, as disgreeing from the nature of God. And if any maintain that the very bodily action of reading is the worship of God, it may fitly be alleged against them, etc. JOHN GREENWOODS' ANSWER. Wisdom is justified of her Children. IT is agreed upon and consented unto on both sides, that seeing God is a spirit, and only requireth such to worship him, as worship him in spirit and truth: all carnal worship is cut down hereby, of what sort soever, as disagreeing from the nature of God: And that all fantastical devices of men; namely, whatsoever is not warranted in his word, is carnal worship, a wearisomeness unto him, and loathsome in his sight: So that no man ought to intermeddle, attempt, or practise any thing in show of worship whereof they have not sure ground of his word: For even our God is a consuming fire. Now to put away all your (bodily) distinctions and earthly cavils, I still affirm (as I have proved) the stinting, imposing men's writings upon public assemblies, to have them read over by number and stint, or any other way, as a worship of God in stead of true invocation, is a mere devise of man, and so carnal worship; as also all other reading of men's writings publicly or privately in this abuse, for praying to God. Yet say you to apply this Scripture john 4.22.23 in this manner against read prayer, is frivolous, where I appeal to all men's consciences, for the weight thereof. It is frivolous, you say, except I can prove that a man cannot pray by the spirit of GOD with sighs and groans upon a book, or when prayer is uttered after a prescript form etc. At the first step you go about to alter the question. All our prayers ought to be uttered after a prescript form, even that perfect rule and form our Saviour gave to his Disciples and all posterities: But this is nothing to the matter. For the other which is nothing but a begging of the question. I alleged certain reasons to this effecet. First that those sighs and groans in reading instead of praying were not of faith, seeing in praying the sighs and groans that proceed of faith, minister matter to pray without a book. Secondly that you did but barely affirm the question in calling it prayer by the spirit when one doth read, seeing reading is not praying at all: for as I then alleged, to invocate the name of God in spirit, is by the work of the spirit to bring fourth of our heart's prayer to God, which is than in truth when it agreeth to God's word. But reading is another matter, namely a receiving of instruction into the heart from the book. Out of the first Mr. GIFFORD maketh men believe he hath fetched two heresies; the one a perfection of faith, the other that faith cannot be joined unto, or stand with any outward helps for the increase thereof. Little marvel, he found so m●nie heresies in our whole writings, that could find two or three in my first reason: but that you may remember yourself better (though you had two years to consider) I will bring the words before you again, if peradventure you may have grace to call back yourself. I said if the sighs and groans (in that kind of praying) were of faith, it would, minister matter without a book: this sentence I may confirm by many testimonies of scripture, that no perverted spirit can gainsay or resist: the scripture teacheth us every where, that in praying the spirit only helpeth our infirmities, no other helps mentioned or can be collected in the present action of prayer through the Scripture. He hath sent into our hearts the spirit of his Son crying: Rom. 8.26. Gal. 4.6. 2. Cor. 4.13. ABBA Father. we believe, therefore we speak. Yet here is not any show of perfection of faith, but of the contrary, praying for our wants. But this may be gathered, that God only accepteth the fruits of his own spirit in prayer, and requireth no more of any, but that every one according to the proportion of faith, pray unto him, as occasion in them requireth. Now to conclude that because in praying we need not a book to speak for us, when the heart itself and book of our Conscience speaketh with God; that therefore faith never needeth instruction, but is perfect, were slanderoous, false, and senseless. The cause then of these heresies proceed hereof, that yourself Mr. GIFFORD would needs frame two syllogisms, and in the moods of your malice, constrain the proposition of the present action in praying, to a general sentence of all times and actions, though both our question here was of the very action of praying, and in the conclusion of that very point within six lines after this, you had these words; Even in the time of their begging at God's hands; so that these heresies must be Mr. Giffords' and not mine, seeing they are found to be coined of his idle brain, and godless heart, only to defame the truth. But (say you) the most part are ignorant, weak, short of memory, etc. therefore need all helps to stir them up to pray, etc. where, by your own confession, reading is not praying, but a help to stir up to pray. And even hereupon all our errors arise, that you cannot discern the difference of spiritual gifts, with the distinct use of them. We doubt not but before prayer, and all the days of our life we have need of helps of instruction to pray aright, and for the fitness of the mind and body, often fasting, reading, meditating, etc. are great helps to go before to humble ourselves in praying: but in the present action of prayer when the heart is talking with God, the eyes, hands, etc. with attention lift up to heaven, all the powers of our souls and bodies conversant with God, to take a book and read cannot be called in this action a help, but a confounding of the mind, of God's ordinances, and a doing we know not what, though before and after, it be an excellent means ordained of God, to instruct us to pray and all other duties. As for the confirmation you talk of, where I alleged that a troubled mind is the pen of a ready writer/ therefore needeth not a book to speak for it in the action of praying: By troubled mind i understood such a mind/ as is presently moved with the sight of some sin/ or urged by other occasion: Psalm 5● 17. a broken spirit, a broken and contrite heart: and not such a mind as in despair or doubt is perplexed: and that the heart which is moved in faith with present occasion to call upon God is the pen of a ready writer/ (that is) hath matter and words enough without a boock to utter it own wants/ we may read throughout the Psalms. My throat is dry (saith David) I am weary with crying etc. But here again instead of answer/ you tell me/ I run upon the rock of an heretical opinion of perfection: Wherein i wonder (but that i perceive your right eye is blinded) you should be so careless what you say/ nay what after two years study you put in print. Doth it follow/ that because the heart/ moved with occasion through the work of faith hath words and matter enough in praying without a book to speak for it/ that therefore faith is perfect? let equal judges consider. Here you say many are so troubled & perplexed in mind, that they cannot pray till they have some consolation by the direction of others; which when they cannot have, reading upon a book is a notable help, I allow all this and agree/ if you would make reading one thing/ and prayer an other/ divers exercises of the spirit etc. But in the very action of praying to have an other speak unto us never so good words of exhortation/ were but a confounding of the mind and action/ and an abuse of both those holy exercises. Even so/ by your own comparison/ reading upon a book in the action of praying/ seeing we cannot do both at once. It is the Spirit of God in the very action of prayer that helpeth our infirmities. David in praying finding his soul heavy/ stirreth up himself thus. My soul why art thou cast down, Psalm 4● end 43 why art thou disquieted within me, wait on God; For I will yet give him thanks, my present help and my God. He had a troubled mind/ his mouth wanted no words to provoke the Lord to hear his complaint/ and his heart to wait upon the Lord/ and so through all the Psalms you shall find the conversing of the soul with God to be such/ as it were a mockery to think reading upon a book could have any place in that action/ or that any man's writing could lay out the present estate of the soul with the passions thereof. The Priest may say/ my book why art thou so evil printed, for when they read the heart cannot reason and talk with God. To the second point/ which was but your bare assuming of the question/ to say a man may pray by the spirit upon a book etc. I alleged that to worship God in spirit/ is/ when the inward faith of the heart bringeth fourth true invocation/ etc. this you grant to be most true/ and that none other is accepted of GOD/ then that which proceedeth from the inward faith of our own heart: But you think that reading upon a book is to bring fourth of the heart true invocation. This cannot be if we consider the difference between proseuche and anagnosis prayer and reading/ the one being a pouring fourth of vows/ petitions/ supplications/ the other a receiving into the soul of such things as we read. This therefore i leave to all men's consciences to be considered/ whether the matter we read can be said a pouring fourth of the heart/ the whole use of those divers actions through the whole Bible show it cannot. Now where I said that you teach men instead of pouring fourth their hearts/ to help themselves with matter and words out of a book/ you say I speak fondly and foolishly/ etc. Mine answer now is/ it is well I lied not/ if I had said you compel men to read upon a book in all your public assemblies/ certain words of your own writings by number and stint/ from year to year/ and day to day the same/ instead of pouring out their hearts before the Lord for their present wants. I had not lied. Now let all men by that which hath been said consider the grossness of it/ and so the folly remaineth to yourself. But to help this matter/ and to deliver yourself cunningly in such straight/ you sa● you wish all men to use the help of the book▪ that they might the better power fourth their hearts unto God/ being such as are not thoroughly able. First you grant here/ the prayers read upon the book is not the pouring fourth of the heart/ but aught to be used only as an help whereby you grant the whole question/ and further all your assemblies have had no other invocation of God's name this many years/ but a help to teach them to power fourth their hearts. But whether men's writings may be read in the public assemblies to this use/ we shall after make manifest/ Here it is granted but an help/ and not the pouring fourth of the heart. And to whom is it an help? to such as are notable to pray. Here either you must confess your whole ministery is unable to pray/ or that they transgress in this high worship of GOD: for in an other place you grant in all your assemblies this reading is used of men's writings for prayer/ thus you may behold your best worship to be nothingh but a help to teach you to pray. Where I said that you teach men to fetch the cause of their sorrowing from the book/ even in their time of begging at GOD'S hand/ you say I speak fond to call that the cause/ which is the manifestation of the cause etc. You here forget your arts/ Is there no more cau●es than one? if it be the instrumental cause/ it is sufficient to prove/ that if your ministers had not their book/ they had nothing to ask/ or else ask that which is in the book/ they ask not that which before was in their own hearts/ so not coming heavy loaden/ they go empty away/ and leave the matter in the book as they found it/ till the next day/ and then sing the same song. But true prayer is/ when the heart is first prepared/ and moved with the sight of their wants as the child that asketh bread: So we should not pray of custom/ but ask the very thing whereof our heart feeleth the want●et. Your comparison again betwixt the being stirred up by a Sermon/ and stirred up by reading showeth/ that yourself will not make the reading the pouring fourth of the heart. There is no question but the exercise of reading is chiefly for instruction and increase of knowledge/ and meditating is not the same/ neither can be said to be all the use of reading/ though we deny reading to be praying: but because we are forbidden contention about words/ and I have offered you as much wrong in saying you denied reading to be for meditation at all/ I will proceed to the more necessary doctrines. Also for the controversy of Canonical and Apocryphal/ we shall speak in due place. Thus (say you) you have answered nothing at all unto this Commandment given by our saviour Christ to use that prescript form of prayer, say, Our Father etc. but by shift & cavil etc. Here you think you have put me to a plunge/ yourself needed nothing doubt/ but that I allowed the Commandment holy and good/ and to extend to all Christians/ as well as to the Apostles/ namely/ to use that prescript form of prayer as the perfect pattern and direction to all men's true prayers. But you I trust will make difference betwixt a form to all prayers/ and praying/ or prayer. And here you vehemently urge me to answer you/ before I see you conclude any thing from the place/ and so I should run into folly/ to answer a matter before I hear it. In your first entrance of this discourse/ you were round in your Syllogisms, by two at once to wrested my words/ and can find none for yourself/ It seems your conscience is witness the matter would not hang together. And me thinks you had never more need to have showed what you would draw from this place Luke 11. seeing I either mistook you last time/ or else you make a simple collection: which was this: Christ said to his Disciples, when you pray say Our Father. etc. and not when you meditate say Our Father. Now what would you conclude of this/ except as I said that Christ would not have them meditate that Scripture: But this I perceive was not your meaning: now I partly think your Argument should be (if the sword were not broken in the sheath) thus▪ Christ commanded his Disciples when they prayed to say Our Father, etc. therefore to be tied to read over or say by rote certain words, is law full praying. For the first/ that our Saviour Christ tied no man or commanded none to say over those very words when they prayed/ but to pray according to that form/ after that manner as Matth. 6. I manifested in my first writing 1. that our Saviour did not command us to use those words. 2 that Matth. 6. doth not keep the same words/ nor that number of words which Luke 11. doth 3. that he did not say/ read these words when you pray/ or say these words by rote. After all which reasons slily passed away in both your answers/ you come with your bare affirmation/ that he commanded those words to be said over by rote or reading: yea a little after you say/ it is false to say that he commanded not the very words to be said over when we pray. And you further conclude/ that because Christ commanded his Disciples to say over those words/ therefore all men's writings in the form of prayer may be brought into the public assemblies to be read for prayer/ being agreeable to the word. To which I answer that seeing no man's writings are without error/ it is pernicious and blasphemous doctrine you collect. First because you make men's writings of equal authority with the form of prayer which Christ hath prescribed 2 for that you give men as much liberty and authority to frame and impose their Liturgies as Christ had to set down a form of prayer/ he being Lord of the house. The wickedness of which collections you shall never be able to answer. And because you here urge me thereunto/ I will make answer to your two places of Scripture/ wherewith by false interpretation you deceive the simple/ which taken from you/ your matter is nothingh but cavilling: The places are these/ Luce 11. Nom. 6. and because the one explains the other/ and your collections the same from both/ I will begin with numbers 6.32.33.34. etc. Thus shall you bless the Children of Israel saying, the Lord bless thee & keep thee, etc. Here you say they were commanded to use the very words prescribed, in all their blessings. This I say is not true/ for the Hebrew word is Coh Tebaracu. thus shall you bless: where the word Coh is an adverb of similitude/ as we say/ after this manner; which cannot be to say the same/ but according to the same instructions. This word Coh is ysed throughout the Bible in this manner/ in all the Prophets when they say/ thus saith the Lord: where the sum of their prophecies are only recorded to us by the holy Ghost/ and not all the words. Again this blessing is used in the Psalms and Chronicles in prayer/ for the people/ in many other words. 1. Sam 1.17 Ely blessed Hanna in other words/ etc. And where by L●ce 11.2. it is recorded/ that our Saviour Christ commanded his Disciples/ when you pray, say our Father, etc. it is plain by the doctrines following. 4.5.6.8.11. verses/ that Christ tied no man to the very words saying over/ for he teacheth them to ask their particular wants/ as a child asketh bread or an egg of his Father: also to importune the Lord for our particular wants. But to make this place more plain/ the same holy Ghost in the 6. of Matthew 9 verse saith when you pray, say thus, Our Father, etc. where the greek word houtos hath the same signification that the Hebrew word Coh had which is/ after this manner: and cannot be referred to the very words saying over/ whereupon Mr. Calvin upon those words saith/ Noluit filius dei prescribere quibus verbis utendum sit: The Son of God would not prescribe what words we must use. Now consider how falsely Mr. Gifford hath interpreted these Scriptures/ to say the Priests were commanded to use the very words/ and that Christ commanded to use the very words. As for his collections/ that therefore men's writings may be imposed upon public assemblies by stint and number to be prayed, ut is intolerable error, and bringeth in all popery. Here I must call all men that read this fruitless discourse to be witness of Mr. Giffords' abuse of his tongue/ to the defacing of God's truth. In his Epistle he proclaimed/ that I called all men Idolaters; which you shall perceive to be his own words/ and to that end I will briefly repeat it. In my first writing I affirmed the reading imposed Liturgies by stint and limitation instead of true invocation/ as also all reading men's writings for praying/ to be idolatry. In his answer he said/ he could not see by what colour it could be called Idolatry, or maintained out of God's word so to be; but it seems the penners of these things take every sin against the first table of the law, to be Idolatry: if they do so (saith he) and with all do hold that no Idolater shallbe saved, then doubtless all are lost, etc. Tothis' ignorant excursorie I answered/ that all false and devised worship by man's invention was idolatry/ as the first and second commandemen did testify: And so admit all the breaches of the first table were not idolatry/ yet reading of men's writings instead of praying must needs be idolatry/ seeing it is a transgression of the second Commandment. Further (though I needed not have followed his empty head/ even a cloud without water) yet I proceeded to prove/ that no idolater could be saved but by repentance for their known sin/ and craving pardon with David for their hidden sins and secret faults. Psalm 119 Moreover (said I) do you think any man is free from all inward and outward idolatry/ seeing we cannot keep one Commandment/ and in some things we sin all. In which words i plainly reproved his grossness that concluded all men idolaters which committed any idolatry/ and that no idolater could be sauld/ and distinguished between the sin of ignorance/ weakness/ and inperfection etc. in God's children/ and open professed obstinate idolatry. Yet this godless man would lay to my chardg/ that i should call all men idolaters/ whereas i never used such a word in all my writings/ But only answered his folly in this running out from the question/ they were his own words that brought this upon his own head/ by concluding/ that if every sin against the first table were idolatry/ and no idolater could be saved/ then all are lost/ let the grossness then be his and not mine. And i leave it to the consideration of all men/ whether i may not say/ that they which transgress the first or second Commandments/ do commit Idolatry/ without absurdity. But saith he though it be so/ yet the Scripture calleth not the godly/ murderers/ Idolaters/ etc. for the relics of sin remaining. I answer that therefore your former absurd cavilling where you said/ if we hold it Idolatry etc. is by your own mouth fully answered. But to avoid this foil/ he hath an other evasion. I thought (saith he) we had reasoned about such gross idolatry as a Church is to be condemned and forsaken/ which is defiled therewith. Here again you misreport me: I never reasoned to that end in this whole discourse/ but only laboured to show all men this error of reading men's writings instead of praying/ that they might learn how to converse with God and their own Conscience/ in prayer. And what mends will you make for this slandering and defacing of the truth/ to all the world? all that I desire is your repentance and amendment/ which God grant unto you if you you be his. It followeth in your book thus: But seeing you confess tha● all men be Idolaters, that is touching the remanents of sin, it must needs follow there is no Church free from spots, etc. This word idolaters must still be yours and then i willingly grant/ that no man living is free from idolatry/ concerning the relics of sin: Also that no Church upon earth can be without spot upon earth: So that now/ by your own confession/ I plead not for perfection in this life/ though the more we want/ the more we ought to endeavour. With what face then could you publish me an Anabaptist in your Epistle/ and out of one mouth give contrary sentence? Doth your ordinary teach you to cast out such bitter waters of untruths? was it possible I should hold all men idolaters/ and some men without committing of sin after regeneration/ especially to maintain both such heresies as you give out? Well consider yourself/ before the Lord call you to account for defacing his truth/ and pleading for Baal. I grant/ yea/ I were not of God if I should speak otherwise/ that the dear servants of God fall into most loathsome sins after regeneration/ that the riches of God's mercy might appear in their repentance/ through the work of his grace. Then you reason thus: if there be always spots and imperfectness in the true Church upon earth/ then all your Arguments you bring against the Church of England/ be of no force/ except you will maintain a perfection. M●ne answer is/ I will not meddle with your Church to prove it a false Church in this treatise/ but refer you to Mr. Barrowes refutation of Mr. Gifford▪ him that handleth that part of your book. Yet I must tell you your argument is very simple: For after the same manner you might reason thus: If there be no true Church without spots upon earth, than the Church of Rome is the true Church, for it hath many spots, & you all Schismatics: Again you assume the matter you should prove. It will be proved against you/ that you have not Ecclesiam a people called fourth of the world to the obedience of Christ: Then/ that the spots of your Church are Egyptian ulcers incurable running botches. But I purposed not to deal with your Church/ only my mind is to show the unlawfulness of this readingh and imposing men's writings upon men's Consciences in stead of true praying. Of which sin the Lord give you and this whole land grace to repent/ that so men may learn more fervently to call upon God. The first Argument against read prayer, etc. No Apocrypha must be brought into the public assemblies: for there only GOD'S word & lively voice of his own graces must be heard in the public assemblies. But men's writings & the reading them over for prayer are Apocrypha, therefore may not be brought into the public assemblies. G. Gifford. First touching the Proposition, No Apocrypha is to be brought into the public assemblies: What can be more false? Apocrypha is opposed against Canonical: If nothing may be brought into the public assemblies but Canonical Scripture, than the Sermons and prayers of Pastors are to be banished etc. I. Greenwood. IN the answer of this/ you will needs oppose against both Proposititions/ and yet have nothing to say/ if not to roil the doctrines delivered with your feet/ least others should drink thereof. The part of a wise man had been to lay his hand on his mouth. In the first Proposition you would oppose the word Apocrypha against the lively voice of God's graces when you see I said only/ that no Apocrypha might be brought into the public assemblies. And further to explain my mind/ least you should willingly find such a cavil/ I added this reason for there only God's word & the lively voices of his graces are to be heard: Where I acknowledged those lively voices to be God's ordinance/ yet nether to be called Apocrypha nor Canonical. How can you say then I would have these/ or that these are banished/ if all Apocrypha writings be banished the public assemblies? Yet as I told you/ I take Apocrypha to be all writings/ but the Canonical Authentic Scriptures. But (say you) than I will exclude the Paraphrases upon the Scriptures and the Psalms in metre etc. Affirm you them to be Apocrypha as you do/ and can do no other/ and I will through God's grace prove they ought not to be brought into the public assemblies. First/ no man's writinghs are given to the Church by testimony of God's spirit/ and we are only commanded to hear what the spirith saith: Rev. 2 7.11 therefore though men's writings be permitted to be read privately of them that will/ and thereupon called Apocrypha (that is hidden) they may not be brought into the public assemblies. Secondly no man's writinhs are without error and imperfections/ therefore not to be brought into the public assemblies: 1. Tim 3.15 The Church is the pillar of truth. thirdly the Church is builded upon the foundation of the Prophets and the Apostles Christ jesus being the chief corner stone/ and not upon men's writings/ Therefore men's writins may not be brought into the public assemblies. Other foundation can no man lay. etc. Ephes. 2.20. and 1. Cor. 3. fourthly if we might bring in any men's writings into the public assemblies/ them all men's writings which we judge agreeable to the Scriptures. But this is forbidden/ Ecclesiastes 12.11.12. My proof of the first Proposition to this: If any men's writings are to be brought into the public assemblies by God's commandment because they are agreeable to the Scriptures/ as you in an other place allege/ then all that are thought agreeable to the Scriptures ought of necessity by the same commandement/ and if there be no commandment/ then none are to be make Authentic which God hath not made Authentic/ For that were to set man in the place of God. Gallat 3.15 hebr 2.3.4. and 9.14. Matt 5.18 2. Timot 3.15.16.17. rev 22.18.19. No man's writings carry that majesty/ that the pen of the holy ghost. No man's writings are Cecuromenai, Authentic, confirmed by signs and wonders from heaven/ sealed by Christ's blood/ that not one word or title shallbe unfulfilled/ The Scriptures are all sufficient. All men must walk by that one rule; To think there were not rules ynoug prescribed by the Lord for his house were blasphemous and papistical. Now for the explication/ interpretation etc. and speech unto God in prayer: God hath given gifts unto men to pray and prophecy/ and ordained his ministry of Pastors/ Teacher's/ whose lively voice is appointed to be the mouth of God unto the people/ and of his people unto himself/ in the public assemblies. And th●se graces are not Apocryphal, for no prophecy of the Scripture is of private interpretation idias epiluseos: to every one to given the manifestation of te spirit to profit withal. 2. Pet. 1.20 1. Cori 12.7. Most excellent men serve but their time in the public assemblies. Now I may conclude a I began. That only Gods holy word & the lively graces of his holy Spirit are to be heard & offered up unto him in the public assemblies. Where then in way of answer to the Minor Proposition, you say you see not how our speech unto God should be Apocrypha: It answereth not me/ who deny an other man's writing to be our speech in prayer unto God But convinceth yourself by your own mouth/ thus: True prayer is not Apocrypha, but all men's writings are Apocrypha; Therefore men's writings is not true prayer. Here when you have nothing to say for yourself/ you would make me believe that I account the Psalms and the other forms of prayer in the Scripture to be Apocrypha when they be read/ though a little before you confessed/ you had in your last writing done me wrong therein. I do account the reading of them for praying/ to be a gross and superstitious abuse of them/ yet them to be holy and canonical Scripture. And here you have flatly overthrown yourself: saying the word Apocrypha is used with us for that which is not God's undoubted word unto us: And in your last writing/ which should have been your answer/ you said/ God speaketh to us only by the Canonical Scriptures. Now seeing you would make your liturgies and devised forms of prayer/ helps and instruction/ and yet cannot make them Canonical/ or God's undoubted truth/ they must not be brought into the public assembly/ much less imposed by law upon the Consciences of all men. And here remember all your Liturgies are cast out of the door: besides that/ you have not made in both writings one direct answer to this most firm Proposition: which I will still leave upon you/ thus. Only the Canonical Scriptures & lively voice of Gods own graces are to be brought into the public assemblies for doctrine & prayer. But men's writings are neither Canonical Scripture nor the lively voice of God's graces in such as he hath appointed to speak in the public assemblies. Therefore no man's writings, may be brought into, nor imposed upon the public assemblies. Thus might I make an end with this vain man/ considering the whole matter is proved against him/ all that follow being but repetitions of these former cavils/ but that I must clear myself of his unconscionable slanders. The second Argument. We must do nothing in the worship of God without warrant of his word. ●ut read prayers have no warrant in his word. Therefore read prayers are not to be used in the worship of God. G. Gifford. To this I answer at the first, that it is a great audacity to affirm that there is no warrant in the word for read prayers. when there be sundry testimonies to warrant the same, unless you will make difference between that which a man readeth upon a book, and that which he hath learned out of the book. Further I said, I do not remember that ever I have read that God commanded in the Scriptures the prayer shallbe read upon a Book, etc. I. Greenwood. seeing you have indeed not answered one reason or proof I alleged in my last writing▪ but with much evil conscience (as the handling showeth) perverred them/ I will leave them to be judged of them that shall see my writing. And here/ seeing you would not print it/ I will answer your chief objections. First than you grant/ that if I put difference between reading upon the book/ and that which he hath learned out of the book/ mine Argument to sound: For by your own confession/ God hath not given any Commandment to read prayer, and so it hath no warrant. Whereupon I gain thus much: First/ tha● they which impose read prayer upon the Church/ do that whereof they have no warrant in the word/ and that in the high service of God. Then that they which read upon a book for praying/ do that whereof they have no warrant in God's word: whereupon all your Ministers must leave reading their scented prayers upon the book/ or else stand under God's wrath▪ and all that so pray with them/ which willbe a fearful reckoning if they repent not their sin showed them. And although our question he chiefly concerning the reading of men's writings instead of praying/ yet I am content the other abuse of the Scriptures be included also though I make not both in the same height of sin/ as shall appear in my several reasons. As an unconstant man then/ you in the latter end of the answer to this Argument would call back again that/ which you here have granted: Namely/ that there is no Commandment to read prayer upon a book for praying. Of the contrary thus you reason: The people of God did read the Psalms upon a book whe● they did sing, therefore men may read upon a book when they pray. I deny your Argument: besides that all men may see your unstableness in denying and affirming with one breath/ you now go about to make reading of prayer a Commandment: thus you prove it. Singing (say you) is a part of prayer. Singing may be read upon a Book▪ therefore prayer may be read upon a book. Admit that sing were a part of prayer/ yet doth it not follow that all prayer may be read upon a book. But you speak like an ignorant man to say that Singing is prayer/ seeing they are two divers actions and exercises of our faith● the one never read for the other/ nor said to be a part of the other through the Scriptures/ but are plainly distinguished 1. Cor. 14.15. what is it then. I will pray with the spirit/ bu● y will pray with understanding/ I will sing with the spirit etc. again/ if you be sad/ pray/ and if you be merry sing Psalms/ pro●●●xon ai and psalo. I will pray/ and I will sing are divers exercises of the faith/ if a man should say reading a chapter of the scripture and prophesying were all one/ were he not wide? jan. 5.13. Even so every part of God's service is not prayer. I grant we are every where commanded to sing Psalms unto God. And alleged that place of the Apostle to the Ephes. 5.19. Speaking to yourselves in Psalms and Hymns and Spiritual songs/ etc. and that of the Colo. only to this end/ that in Psalms singing we do not always speak unto God/ as in those Psalms which are only instructions and prophecies/ in the 1. and 2. Psalms you have not one word spoken unto God. Again/ as all reading of the prayers in the Scriptures is not praying or speaking unto God/ so the reading or singing of Psalms I took to have been a speaking to ourselves a stirring up of God's graces in us etc. But I do not now/ nor did not then hold it so/ in all Psalms singing. And where you say I purposely left out the latter part in both places/ which was this sing unto God with a grace in your hearts/ the Lord knows I had no purpose to injury the Scripture/ nor maintain an untruth/ But thought we might do those things with a grace to God in our hearts/ which were not properly and directly a conversing by thought and word with him alone/ but one thing might have kept you from crying out/ heresy/ in that I added this/ that I would not stand upon that reason/ but desired to know it further. But how unjustly could you number this for an heresy maintained of us all in your Epistle/ that we should deny that Psalms should be song unto God. The Lord keep me from such error. And a woeful Physician you are/ if I had been in such error, For the 102. Psalm I never denied: but that it was a most excellent Psalm penned by Daniel or some other PROPHET/ and given to the whole Church to be song or read as other Psalms/ in the form of prayer: But you must prove that the Church did use it as you say/ to read it over for praying/ or were commanded so to do. This is proof enough they did not/ because it is a Psalm. Now thoug the Church speak many times in the singular number/ yet it is expressed in some other verse that it is so. But now admit that you could prove that the psalms were read instead of or for invocation/ which you shall never be able to do/ it doth not follow that men's writings should be brought into the assemblies and read for prayer. The 6. of Numbers I have answered before: From the 92. Psalm you reason thus. If the psalms & other forms of prayer in the Scrìpturés were read or said by rote the very form of words for praying; The reading instead of or for praying. Here you durst not set your assumption, it was so false/ which should be thus. But the Psalms & other forms of prayer were read for praying etc. This I showed you was very untrue/ they were never commanded so to be used/ nor never so used. My proof was this/ they are given by the holy Ghost for other uses/ as singing/ reading/ etc. and not commanded any where so to be used/ so that you do but cavil/ not having one proof for all your shameless assertions. Now where I demanded what this made for your liturgies, and reading men's writings for praying/ except you would make your own writings of equal authority with the Scriptures: You answer/ That if I deny the consequence/ it was lawful to use the Psalms/ therefore men's writings/ then I will shut out all prayers/ even the prayer of the Pastor. See your carnal handling/ shuffling/ and confounding Gods ordinances: Doth it follow that because men's writings may not be brought into the public assemblies/ or there read for praying/ therefore the prayers uttered by the lively voice of the pastor should herebie be excluded? this your shift was answered in the first Argument/ your cavils are stale/ you are again convinced. Touching the other matter of cunning phrases and forms of prayer by rote/ to say over certain number of words/ it is popish and a mere evasion/ and bewrayeth your ignorance in prayer. In this you have granted me that he which prayeth not with a feeling of his present wants of his soul/ but saith over certain number of words of custom or affectation/ he is an hypocrite/ which is true/ proved. Mat 6.7. Now by this examine your daily/ monthly/ annual etc. saying over/ nay reading over certain words/ every time the same/ as you are stinted. It is plain the sacrifice of fools/ Ecclesiastes. 4.17. The two points wherein you protest so willingly to agree with me/ were these. First whether only such prayers as were made without the book/ were accepted of God's children. Secondly whether the same spirit teacheth us to pray/ that taught the holy men of God before tyme. You grant both these/ but that you would seem to alter the first question: well than/ Gods own spirit that taught them to pray without a book/ or stinting of words/ teacheth us so to pray now/ and in the action of praying giveth the mouth to utter what the heart desireth/ moved with the same spirit. Still then after your long shifting to and fro/ I trust you will stand to your first words/ that you never read in the Scriptures any commandment for reading of prayers. secondly/ to say over certain numbers of words or phrases of the Scripture of custom or affectation/ without feeling of/ or ask for our present wants/ is hypocrisy. Therefore I will conclude as I began/ mine Argument standing good/ that/ To do any thing in the worship of God whereof we have no warrant of God's word/ is sin. But read prayers have no warrant in God's Word/ Ergo. etc. The third Argument. We may not in the worship of God receive any tradition which bringeth our liberty into bondadge. Read prayer upon commandment brought into the public assemblies, is a tradition that bringeth our liberty into bondage. Therefore read prayer etc. The Minor is thus proved/ that God hath left it in all men's freedom to pray as the present occasion requireth and the spirit giveth utterance/ according to his will. Again no man hath power to command any thing in the worship of God/ which God hath not commanded etc. Mark. 7.7.8.9. Mat. 15. Gal. 5, 1. etc. G. Gifford. I say it is ungodly and near unto blasphemy, to affirm, that prescript form of prayer is a tradition bringing our liberty into bondage etc. my reason was & is, that the Lord by Moses prescribed a form of blessing etc. Nom 6. the Prophets in the Psalms have prescribed many forms of prayer. Our Saviour Christ prescribed a form of prayer etc. I. Greenwood. HEre is a great storm/ and yet nothing but wind. If you were in Cai●has his place you would either have rend your clothes for zeal/ or else condemn me before you understand what I say. Is it simple dealing do you think to say/ I hold it a bondage breaking our liberty, for the Lord by Moses, 〈◊〉 Prophets, our Saviour Christ also, to set down a form of prayer or to prescribe a form of prayer: Did you not see that the Minor Proposition speaketh of the reading/ for praying/ and not of the form of prayer? Again/ of the commandment/ where by men are compelled to read instead of praying? Did you not see that these words brought in to the public assemblies, did specify the matter to be men's writings to be read in the assemblies as a worship/ yea invocation of God's name: which is a gross mockery. Not that there is any Commandment to read over those forms of prayer mentioned by you/ for praying: and so the Commandment so to read them for praying is an abuse of them/ and a Commandment of men and not of God etc. But that much more odious it is to bring in men's writings into the public assemblies/ proved unlawful in the first argument/ and then to commit Idolatry with them by reading them instead of praying/ and that to compel men by Commandment where God had set no Commandment 〈◊〉 use them/ was a bringing all men into bondage of popish traditions. So that your common recital of these places of Scripture is abuse of them/ and you do but palinodian canere. I think if you get St. IHONS' gospel about your neck as the Papists/ you will think you have religion enough. The more fearful is your Apostasy/ you proceed from evil to worse. G. Gifford. About the Commanding a prescript form of prayer to be used, our Church doth agree with all godly Churches, yea the reformed Churches have and do practise the same. here therefore I wish the reader to observe that you Brownists do not only condemn the Church of England, but all the reformed Churches whatsoever, and can be no other but Donatists. I. Greenwod. I Trust your madness will appear to all men/ the poison of Asps is under your tongue: he that cannot rule his tongue his Religion is in vain. Shall I in your hea●e be pressed with multitude of Churches? then hear what the Lord saith/ Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil. Exo. 23.2 we have the word amongst us/ we shall by that word be either justified or condemned. Then either prove your matter from te Schriptures. or else give ear to the Scripture. If those Churches you speak of/ bring men's writings in to the public assemblies/ et in force them to be read for praying/ I would see their warrant/ we believe not because men say so or do so/ but because God speaketh: And where he speaketh/ all men must besilent. You may accuse ●ther Countries as you will/ I know not their estate/ but your drudgery instead of true worship/ is loathsome/ the Priest with his mass-book/ and beggar with his clapdisch canuize over the Pater noster for their belly/ which is your com-mon worship/ with other trinkets. We shall speak of a Liturgy in due place. Here you breath out your accustomed lies/ slanders/ and 〈◊〉. First you term us Brownists and Donatists/ whereas I never conversed wit the men nor their writings: I detest Donatus his heresies. And if they had been instruments to teach us any truth we were not therefore to be named with their name/ we were baptised into Christ's. Browne is a member of your Church your brother/ and all Brownists do frequent your assemblies. And here you wish the reader to consider/ that I condemn all reformed Churches/ do I condemn all Churched for reproving a sin by God's words May not the true Church●● (if they were such) ere▪ Did I affirm at any time tha● they were no true Church that used read prayers/ remember yourself/ you know who is the Father of such untruths. But because your Conscience bore you witness you had wrongfully charged me/ and for me/ all true Christians: you bring it in by necessary consequence thus, you affirm (say you) prescript forms of prayer brought into the public assemblies to be the changing the work of the Spirit into an idol, a tradition breaking Christian liberty, a dead letter quenching the Spirit etc., and therefore most detestable. But all reformed Churches receive and use it etc. ● therefore. You can reason well to bring the thruth into contempt/ your mouth to open and tongue where as a sword thereunto. If the proposition be true/ draw what consequence you will/ it is yours an not mine/ if the doctrine be true it is God's word that giveth sentence against the sin. And if you have 〈◊〉 spar●●e of grace/ procure that we may decide the truth with other Churches. Doth it follow that because imposing of men's writings to be read for praying is an ●ynous sin/ therefore they that use it are no Church▪ If I should say so/ I should justly be called an Anabaptist. And here you accuse me to plead for such a freedom in the Church/ that nothing be received which is imposed by commandment. Abaddon is the Father of such Prophets. Doth it follow that because we would have ●he Church free from all traditions of men which have no warrant in God's word/ that therefore we would not receive God's ordinances by Commandment. That we ought to receive nothing by Commandment in the worship of God/ which God hath not commanded/ the second commandment with the Scriptures I have rehearsed/ be evident. Deut 5.32 33. Mat. 25.2.3. Gal. 4.9. Collos. 2.20. But seeing yourself graveled/ considering all the world cannot lay a Commandment to bring thei● own inventions into the assemblies/ where God hath laid none/ but forbidden it: you ran to your former places of Scripture to wrested them as before/ where your collections are but vain repetitions of that which hath been convinced before. Moses/ the Prophets etc. prescribed forms of prayers/ therefore men now may thrust their writings into the public assemblies: Your Argument is denied: and yet here is no warrant for the reading them over for prayer. G. Gifford. The Church hath power to expound those prayers mentioned in the Scriptures, and to apply them to their several necessities etc. I. Greenwood. If you mean by expounding/ the breaking up off them by doctrine/ and by doctrine and prayer to aplye them to the several uses of the church by lively voice/ far be it from me to think otherwise. But if you mean by expounding/ to make homilies upon them/ or liturgies by writing to be thrust upon the public assemblies/ you are wide/ and now justify homilies instead of preaching/ and written prayers instead of praying▪ show your warrant: The CH●●CHES power is limited by the word. G. Gifford. When the prayers be framed and composed of nothing but the doctrine of the Scriptures, and after the rules of true prayer, nothing is borough in which God hath not commanded. I. Greenwood. THis might have come in before your railings/ but you saw it was too silly▪ where is that commandment of God/ that all men's wri●tinges in form of prayer agreeable to the Scriptures should b● brought into the public assemblies) your bare word is not enough t● put 〈◊〉 to silence. And when you have got them into the Church/ yo● must prove that GOD hath commanded they should be read fo● prayer. Where I said our Saviour Christ never used the words when h● prayed/ of that form of prayer he gave to his Disciples/ neither commau●●ded his Disciples to say over these words/ neither do we read tha● ever his Apostles did use them/ or enforced others to use any certain number of words/ you say I speak untruly. For say you the Disciple desired him to teach them to pray/ as john taught his Disciples/ an● he commanded them/ when you pray/ say Our Father/ etc. Luke. 1● and S. Math. an Apostle hath delivered the same to the whole Church. I answer I have never heard that John Baptist taught his Disciples to say over certain words/ neither can it be gathered by our Saviour Christ's answer: for he answered not always their very demand according to their words/ but thereupon took occasion to instruct them as he saw need. And I have proved by the 6. of Math. that our Saviour did not command them to say over the very words when they prayed; for the word Houtos in Matthew signifieth after this manner: Again that Math. recordeth not the very number/ or the very same words that Luke doth. And now I reason thus: if Christ had commanded those very words to be said over in praying/ then we must always when we pray/ say over those words: for in Math. ●. he saith when you pray/ pray thus/ Our Father etc. The word when showeth/ that this commandment is to be observed at all times: And then the Apostles sinned in praying other words Acts. 4.24.25. Further yt being the most summary form of prayer/ most ample/ most perfect etc. if those words were commanded to be said over/ then we ought not to use any others for he is accursed that bringeth not the best offring● he hath. Malach. 1.14. By all these it is evident that our Saviour nor his Evangelists tied no man to the very words saying over/ but according to that form and those instructions: and now leave of your popish dreams. Yet you would make men believe I reasoned thus/ that the Apostles did not/ neither our Saviour himself/ nor any that we read of/ use these words in prayer/ therefore they did not use it. Nay I said they did not use those very words in their prayers/ but used other words according to their particular wants/ as our Saviour in the 17. of john is said to do: therefore he nether used nor commanded others to say over those words. And so I may well conclude/ that to impose certain words to be read or said by ro●te for praying/ upon the church/ especially men's writings/ is an intolerable pride/ even a setting of men in the place of God: Also to use them or bow down unto them in that order/ is sin/ and breach of God's law. The fourth Argument. Because true prayer must be of faith, uttered with heart & lively voi●●: It is presumptuous ignorance to bring a book to speak for us unto God etc. The fifth Argument. To worship the true God after an other manner than he hath taught, is Idolatry. But he Commandeth us to come unto him, heavy loaden with contrite hearts, to cry unto him for our wants etc. Therefore we may not stand reading a dead letter, instead of pouring fourth our petitions. The Sjxt Argument. We must strive in prayer with continuance etc. But we cannot strive in prayer & be importunate with continuance, reading upon a book Therefore we must not read when we should pray. G. Gifford. These 3. I joined together as having no weight, you say I answer by plain contradiction without Scripture etc. And afterwards, is not my bare denial as good as your bare affirmation: etc. I. Greenwood. STay yourselves and wonder/ they are blind and make blind. Is there any doctrine more spiritual/ any more inculcated by the Holy Ghost/ then this access unto God in the mediation of 〈…〉 own spirit/ to make our minds known unto God/ to offer up the 〈…〉 own spirit in us/ and fetch increase from him by this 〈…〉 true 〈◊〉 with the heart and voi●e? This colioquie with the high ●●iestie of God is it a m●rter of no weight to learn to discern between 〈◊〉 exercises of the spirit/ and to exercise his graces aright according to 〈◊〉? Rightly is it ●aid/ the wisdom of God is foolishness to the natural man. But Mr. GIFFORD will say he granteth the propositions true and weighty matters 〈◊〉 is the Assumptions that be so frivolous/ and as he saith a little after/ ridiculous: well/ let them be weighed. 1. That reading instead of praying is not a powringh fourth of the heart by lively voice. 2. That it is a quenching of the spirit/ to read an other man's words upon a book/ in the very action of pouring fourth our heart as we pretend. 3. That it is not an vn●ordening of a contrite heart by faith/ but an ignorant action to read for praying. 4. That we cannot strive in prayer/ continued in prayer/ be importunate etc, by reading upon a ●oo●e. These are the 〈◊〉 he t●incketh of so little weight: the bare denial and contradiction whereof he holdeth of such credit/ that it must suffice for answer/ seeing he say't he hath before proved the use of reading. See here he calleth it the use of reading: he could not say that reading is praying/ neth●r that these two exercises of our Faith can be used both in one instant/ as one action. I have sheweed that pro●●che and an●gnosis/ praying/ and reading/ be divers actions both of the mind and body let the reader consider what weight then this matter is of/ to talk with the living God. But for the benefit of such as have grace to savour the things that are of God/ I will a little illustrate these Assumptions/ at least some of them. 1. That it is a quenching of the spirit to read an other man's words upon a book when I should power fourth mine own heart/ the word itself must be considered/ the Apostle commandeth saying 1. Thessalonians 5.19. extinguish ye not the spirit. Now to suppress and leave unuttered the passions of our own heart by the work of the spirit/ giving us cause of prayer/ and instead thereof to read an other man's writing/ I doubt not willbe found and judged of all that have spiritual eyes to see/ a quenching of that grace yea in that action/ the reading hindereth us from pleading our cause with God/ according to the occasions we see in our own hearts. And by not teaching men to draw out the graces of God in them/ to offer up the sweet incense of his own spirit in prayer/ but an other course devised by fleshly policy/ the people grow in such Atheism/ that they learn not all the days of their life to lay open their own soul before the Lord in prayer. How much more than/ by imposing stinted words to be read in the whole assemblies instead of the lively graces/ making it a sufficient ministery to read over such beggarly ware/ do you abondon Gods spiritual gifts/ and make an assembly of Atheists in most places of this land/ yea in the best assemblies you compel such ware to be read/ when and where the lively voices of Gods present graces should only he drawn fourth as an holy odour unto the Lord. Yea I appeal to the consciences of all that fear God/ if this have not brought the land generally into Atheism/ that not one amongst an hundred can call upon God. 2. That it is an ignorance to presume to come into so near a conversing with God/ and to do one action for an other/ so offering the sacrifice of fools/ let it be sufficient proof that reading is not praying. That it is presumptuous/ to bring such lame sacrifices when you know to do better/ let it be considered whether you would so uncircumspectly/ and carelessly approach to the presence of the Prince or any noble parsonage. Then if he be our Lord/ where is his honour/ his fear etc. when we will teach men and compel men to do they know not what in his sight/ and to offer such lame sacrifice. The Priests themselves care not what offering they bring him/ Malach. 1. Thirdly the reading prayer can be at no hand a striving in prayer/ for the word agoniso which is read Rom. 15.30. signifieth to contend in fervency both in mind and word/ to prevail with God as jaakob wrestled with the Angel/ and said/ I will not let thee go except thou bless me. Genes. 32.24.25.26. such s●rift you shall see through out the Psalms in th● prayers of David and the Prophets/ alas/ how this should be performed either in fervency or continuance/ let the wise consider. 4. For importunacy and continuance in prayer/ whereof we have many precepts/ let the word be looked upon/ which is proscart●reo to insist by perseverance etc. as we see our Soviour Christ make plain unto us by a parable Luke 11.5▪ 6.7.8. ●nd Luke 18.1.2.3.5.7. now shall not God avendge his elect which cry night and day? Experience we see in Moses/ who when he lifted up his hands to heaven the Israelites so long prevailed: Exod. 17. You can not make your read prayers serve in this use with all your divises. For how would you effect this/ except to make the Priest read till he sweat again/ with vain repetition/ and the people that use such stinted prayers to say then often over/ as the Papists their fifteen ave marias and five Pater nosters as a cure of all their grieves. By this little I have spoken/ it may appear (though the Lord knows I am a man of uncircumcised lips/ neither able to utter that God giveth me by faith to see in these high things/ neither yet comprehending any title of the exce●llcy of the) yet I hope it shall appear to God's children/ how odious your merchandise is in God's eyes/ and how you make the ordinances of God of true prayer/ of none effect/ by your traditions he only approving the lively graces of his own ministery/ and such as have gifts and are called thereunto/ to be his mouth unto the people and the people's mouth unto him in the public assemblies: you invent a new worship and extinguish his/ which maketh men fall into dissoluteness and bloody tyranny against his Saints. And where I alleged that Paul would pray with the spirit and understanding/ and therefore not up on a book/ you answer that Paul had no such need of a book as other men have. But if you had looked upon the text better/ you should see/ that the Apostle in his own person teacheth what ought to be done in all Churches and of all men/ And that he there taketh away the abuse of spiritual gifts 1 Corin. 14.15. and in the same Chapter showeth that this and all other his doctrines are commandments of God. vers. 37. now either God prescribeth two ways to pray/ or else your reading for praying is a devise of man. But yourself have confessed there is no commandment to read prayer for praying. Yet here you cavil with your stale shift/ that Paul taught others to sing Psalms upon a book/ which is a mere evasion/ seeing singing is not praying. The same Apostle saith to all that are borne of God/ because we are sons God hath sent fourth into our hearts the spirit of his son which crieth Abba Father. So that although we have not like measure of grace/ yet if we cannot pray we have not the spirit of God/ Gal. 4.6 I alleged as you say a reason here why prayer read cannot be true prayer. In reading we fetch the matter from the book which moveth the heart/ In true prayer we fetch the matter from the heart which causeth the mouth to speak. Your answer is/ that this is a most ridiculous vanity/ for tell me (say you) this/ when we bring fourth in true prayer matter from the heart which causeth the mouth to speak/ hath not the heart been first moved with the word of faith/ etc? Let men here witness with me/ what cause I had to esteem you as a shorner/ Again/ how empty you are of any spiritual savour. And here you have no answer to give/ but ask me certain questions: First whether when we bring fourth in true prayer/ etc. the heart hath not been first instructed. To this I answer/ that again you confess the reading prayer upon a book is not praying/ but an instruction of the heart to pray. If you would stand to this/ we should not need have so much labour/ and all the places of Scripture which you have alleged for to prove reading praying/ have been merely wrested by you to deceive the simple. Well (say you) but if the heart be first instructed before it can utter matter in prayer/ why may not the heart again be moved with hearing or reading the word/ and so utter prayer. Yes I grant/ and still you grant me/ that reading is not praying but moveth to prayer: Then all your assemblies that have no prayer but reading prayers/ have no prayer at all/ and all that use read prayer for praying do not pray but mock with God. See if your Ordinary will here be pleased with you: Yet you would deny all this with the same breath by a shift/ saying: The heart is moved when one heareth the prayer of the minister and presently sendeth fourth prayers together with him. I trust you will not say that the heart of the hearer prayeth one thing/ and the Minister an other/ again the prayer of the minister is the prayer of the people/ by God's ordinance/ whiles they think one thing/ and are met to one end/ for avoiding confusion one speaketh/ yet all pray together one thing. But the minister may as well preach and pray/ or read any chapter and pray/ as read prayers/ and pray both in one action of the mind/ and voice/ which were strange. Your cavil then/ whether the heart may be moved/ and pray/ both at once/ is taken away/ seeing you grant reading and praying/ two several exercises of the heart and voice/ which cannot be performed at once with lively voice. The conclusion is then/ that either ye must fetch the matter out of your book when you read prayer/ and so do not pray for the particular wants where with the heart is moved and pressed before you come/ or else you pray not with lively voice at all/ when you read. The Lord then having taught us to break up our own hearts/ and power fourth our own petitions with heart and voice/ give grace to all his people so to worship him. We must pray as necessity requireth. 7. Argu. But stinted prayers cannot be as necessity requireth. therefore stinted prayer is unlawful. To this I answered, approving the Proposition. And in the Assumption I did distinguish of matters to be prayed for: G. Gifford. as that there be things necessary to be prayed for at all times. and of all men: of these a prescript form may be used at all meetings of the Church. there be matters not at all times needful to be prayed for, for such there can be no prescript form to be used continually. etc. I Have proved in the first Argument/ that no men's writings are I. Greenwood. to be brought into the public assemblies/ for there the lively graces of Gods own spirit and canonical Scriptures only must be heard: In the second/ the unlawfulness of reading for praying/ In the third/ the unlawfulness to impose any thing by commandment/ that God hath not commanded. And here we shall handle in few words the end of your stinted prayers. Your distinction is far differing from the wisdom of the spirit/ for though many things be at all times needful to the public assemblies/ yet stand not the assemblies either all at any time/ or any at all times in the same need and feeling of them/ or fitness to receive them/ so that except you can make all assemblies in the same want of such things as are always needful/ or any at all times/ in the same preparedness to ask/ and use them that be needful/ you can make no stinted prayers for them. Give ●are then to the Scripture in this point 1. Corinth. 2.11. ja. 4.14 For what man knoweth the things of a man, if not the spirit of man which is in himself, etc. Again, who knoweth what (shallbe) to morrow? Whiles you then thought to have found out more than the only wise governor of his house saw needful for his worship in his Church/ and of every soul/ you have lifted up yourself into his seat/ and taken the office of his spirit upon you/ who searcheth the hearts and knoweth the reins/ and teacheth his people how and when to ask/ according to his will and eheir needs. Rom. 8.26.27. also the spirit helpeth our infirmities, for what we should pray as we ought we know not: But the spirit itself maketh request for us with sighs & groans which cannot be expressed: Yet searching the hearts knoweth the meaning of the spirit/ because he maketh request for the saints/ according to the will of God. And where you say then/ that if we mark the prescript form of prayers of all Churches/ we shall see this regard/ that nothing be left out which is necessary etc. Rom. 8.7 and 11.34 1. Cor 2.16 ●●d 3.19 This bewrayeth your shallowness/ the wisdom of the flesh is foolishness with God: who hath searched the depth of God's spirit/ or known the mind of man? who can prescribe the estate of all Churches/ and what every moment is needful to be prayed for● Odious then is such dross of a fleshly man's heart. Your second provision/ that nothing be prayed for in your liturgy that falleth seldom out/ but they are limited to the time. Your Church hath not this provision/ you compel men to pray against thunder and lightning at mid winter/ and in your most solemn feasts against sudden death: But the truth is/ till you amend your ways/ God will accept no sacrifice of you/ much less requireth this at your hands/ to do more in his worship than he hath commanded. And where you say/ in the Church of England the preachers are not limyted touching the matter of their prayers/ it is not true/ you are all sworn to your portuis, howsoever/ you may omit some of it for your Sermons/ and under pretext thereof/ what part you will. And why is there not a form for prayer prescribed/ to be used after and before your Sermons? is it because the text is not always the same/ or that the speaker is not in like fitness/ or the auditory in the same preparedness? I assure you these things might be sufficient cause why you cannot use always the same words/ and pray according to your necessities/ and even so standeth the case for all other affairs in the Church. The disposition of the soul and the distresses thereof/ continue not in one state one hour. But let me tell you why you have no form of prayer for your preachings: In many of your parishes/ or (as you would have them) Churches/ Sermons are of those rare things/ whereof you say there can be no proscript form of prayer/ yea your liturgy approveth a ministery and sufficient administration without any doctrine/ which showeth it came out of the devils forge/ and not out of Christ's Testament. But seeing you would take upon you to set so many perscript forms of prayer/ as there is things necessary for every assembly to pray for/ where Christ hath set none/ And if it were a thing so necessary to have prescript words at the administration of the Sacraments/ I asked you whether our saviour Christ had not forgot himself as you thought that when he commanded his ministers to go preach and baptize/ and showed them the words of institution/ and the Elements to be used with all things thereunto needful/ he did not prescribe some form of words for prayer in particular: In the tabernacle every pin was prescribed/ so that either such forms of prayer are not necessary/ or Christ's Testament hath some wants. To this you answer/ that it is not of necessity there should be a set form of prayer prescribed for the administration of the Sacraments: The minister may conceive prayer/ etc. Hold you to this/ that it is not of necessity: you will deny it again the next Argument. Well here you grant/ it is not of necessity/ But you have not answered me/ till you tell me whether you hold it necessary or no: if ill be at all times necessary/ the Testament is not perfect. Again do you not hold it of necessity/ when you eycommunicate men/ and depose your ministry for not observing it? But you say/ it is for conveniencye. If it be a part of God's worship/ and all times convenient/ then is it necessary/ and if it be not necessary/ put such conveniency in your cornered cap/ or surplus. Now if it be necessary at all times/ you must prove it is commanded in God's word/ or else say that all things necessary in God's worship be not contained in God's word/ which were-blasphemous and papistical to affirm. To this you grant all things necessary and convenient are contained/ and ask if I be ignorant that there be many things contained in the scriptures/ that are not expressed in particulars/ but be gathered from the general rules. No/ I am not ignorant of this: but if it may be gathered either by express words/ or by general rule/ that there should be prescript forms of prayer for the administration of the Sacraments/ or any other particular action of the Church/ then must it be so of necessity/ because God hath commanded it/ though not in particular/ yet in general rules: But you grant it is not of necessity: therefore it is not commanded in particular/ nor contained in any general rule. Yet you demand of me/ if one should object that there were not commandment in the Scriptures/ nor example for any prayers to be made at all before preaching etc. I would say he should lie against God/ we have both. For the Apostle showeth it was the chief part of their office/ to perdure in the word and prayer. Act. 6.4/1. Cor. 14. and 1. Tim. 2.1/ Acts. 2.42. besides/ all things are sanctified unto us by the word and prayer. And because they never used doctrine in Church/ but prayer went before/ their meetings is said to be unto prayer. 1. Tim. 4.5 Act. 16.13 ●6. Some things there are I grant that are not prescribed in particular/ and yet are commanded by general doctrine/ as baptism of Infants. But whatsoever is commanded either in particular or necessary collections from general rules/ be of necessity to be obeyed/ as the commandments of God/ and may not be altered/ but your particular forms of prescript words have no such warrant. Now seeing you would have no prescript words of prayer for the minister to use before his preaching/ nor of necessity for the Sacraments/ and have none for excommunication/ etc. I wondered whereof your Portuis is made/ and whereto it should serve/ except for churching and burials and such popery/ whereby you leave the commandments of God/ to set up your own traditions. And here upon I demanded whereupon you would make your stinted and set prayers. You marvel I should be so babbling and make such questions you mean about your babbling worship. You say of the particulars of the lords prayer. I demand now again/ whether you can number the stars of heaven/ or the sands of the sea/ if not/ much less the● particulars of the lords prayer/ There is medicine/ and direction of prayer for every soul/ and every disease thereof to be drawn fourth by doctrine and prayer as the need requireth you would set a liturgy upon some things/ and compel men thereunto every meeting/ which were nothing else but to seal up the fountain/ and send men to the dry pits of your execrable devises/ from the whole fountain/ to a pitcher of water/ from the lively graces of doctrine and prayer/ to your own writings. Paul commanded to pray for Kings and Princes/ yet bound no man what words to use. 1. 〈◊〉. ●. 1.2.3.4.5 The Lord give you repentance of such presumptuous sin/ as to alter his worship. If you cannot know the estate of the soul before hand/ you can make no forms of words for it. ●▪ Argu▪ Read prayers were devised by Antichrist, and maintain superstition & an Idol ministry: therefore read prayers & such stinted service are intolerable etc. G. Gi●●ford. Antichrist devised many blasphemous wicked prayers. But to say that the reading or following a prescript form of prayer was his, is most false, for there were Liturgies in the Church of old, before Antichrist was set in his throne etc. THe Scripture never enforced to read prayers for praying/ neither stinted v● what/ or how many words to use/ neither is the forms of prayer prescribed in the Scripture/ any devise of man. I. Greenwood. Let us then hold these two to be the matters in hand/ the one/ reading in stead of praying/ the other/ stinting and limiting by a written liturgy, what and how ●anie words to pray/ with all other such prescriptions as your liturgy containeth. All may be affirmed antichristian which is not warranted by Christ's word: Yet your liturgy, is even from that Antichrist lifted up into the throne you speak of/ as may of all men be seen that will compare it with the Portuis: And (as I have heard) the Pope would have approved of your liturgy, if it might have been received in his name. Now we have proved in the discourse before/ that reading for praying hath no warrant from Gods word/ which maketh them two several and divers actions every where. Here than we must consider something for an other liturgy, than Christ's Testament/ which we shall find to be nothing else/ then an other gospel. And because Mr. Gifford saith there were liturgies in the Church before Antichrist was lifted up into his throne (which I will not deny) I would have all men understand that I do not go about to prove the Church no Church that hath a liturgy (as mine Arguments are falsely wrested to that purpose) but to prove the unlawfulness og such liturgies thrust upon men's Consciences/ is only my determination through God's assistance. The word liturgia signifieth publicum munus, ergon Laou, the work of/ or for the people: that is the very execution of the ministerial actions in the Church/ according to the word/ of all the officers thereof that is the practice of those ministerial duties prescribed by Christ/ we may every where read. In the first of the Gospel of Luke the 23. verse it is said. And it came to pass that when the days of his ministration were passed he went home to his house, meaning Zacharias: where we see the word Leitourgia for his execution of his ministerial function. Now this Leitourgia of the new Testament/ is even the rule and function prescribed by Christ/ for the public actions to be done in his Church: which liturgy of Christ is perfect/ Gal 1.8.2 Heb. 22.18.19 2. tim 1.13 1 tim 6.14 and he pronounced accursed that addeth any thing thereto/ or taketh any there from: yea all men are bound to keep the true pattern thereof/ without alteration or innovating any part of the same: it is called a commandment to be kept without spot/ till the appearing of our Lord jesus Christ. Now/ to make an other liturgy, is to lay an other foundation/ and to make an other Gospel/ not that there is an other Gospel/ but that there are some willing to pervert the Gospel of Christ. Then your liturgies to which you are sworn/ and by which you administer/ being (as you cannot deny) an other liturgy than Christ's Testament/ is plain an other Gospel/ for the Canons and rules you prescribe and impose are such as he hath not prescribed or commaanded/ or at the best/ a transforming of his ordinances/ Now if you should say/ you do nothing but make laws of particular things collected from the scriptures/ and with that colour impose your liturgies, we have showed the unlawfulness of bringing any man's writings/ as rules into the Church. For the explaining of the whole will of Christ/ so far as is meet for us/ he hath given us his officers to administer/ according to his liturgy by lively voice/ and due execution of all things by one rule. Making then a new litourgia, you must also make a new ministery/ for Christ's ministery cannot administer after a counterfeit liturgy. And that Antichrist was the thief Innovator of this liturgy (howsoever the thing might be long a working by little and little) it is plain when he is called Antikeimenos, 2. Tes. 2.4 that opposite man/ or laier of an other foundation Now we must not make all liturgies beside the Testament/ of like wickedness or blasphemy/ But how near the most heinousest yours approach/ let him that answereth the other part of your book witness unto me. Now where I said you had confessed that you never read in the Scriptures any warrant to read prayers unto God/ you say now/ I know I have falsified your words. Surely it would be known/ for I would not willingly so do/ your words you say were these/ to your remembrance: God never commanded a man to read prayer upon the book: Is not this the same that I say: you confess there is no warrant for reading prayer, is there any thing warranted in his worship/ that he hath not commanded? Then you ask me if I will gather thus/ is it not express commanded/ therefore it is not warranted. No you forgot the word expressie/ to help yourself to say and unsay. I gathered/ that because you said absolutely it was not commanded/ therefore it was not warranted. Here you come again to show your ignorance in the Scriptures/ to say there is not any express commandment to use prayer before or after doctrine. And remember/ you here will have it a commandment/ and said before you hold it not of necessity. G. Gifford. There would sundry inconveniences grow for want of a Liturgy, or prescript forms of public prayers. I. Greenwood. STill I must put you in mind of the wisdom of that governor of his house/ the builder/ beginner and finisher of our Faith Christ jesus: he foresaw what inconvenience would have grown if either men or Angels should make new liturgies, or other forms of prayer/ than he hath prescribed/ for the public assemblies. Here therefore you deeply charged him/ not to have done all things that were needful/ in not prescribing you more forms than he hath donne/ or not suffered learned divines to impose their own writings upon public assemblies/ as rules for the Church/ and worship unto God. But see what the Scripture saith/ who hath known the mind of the Lord, ● Cor 2.16 〈◊〉 2.20/ that he might instruct him. Again▪ where is the wise, where the Scribe, where the disputer of this world, hath not God made the wisdom of this world foolishness? To put you out of doubt than/ that we need not any new liturgy/ nor any men's writings to be brought into the public assemblies/ the Holy Ghost saith/ 2. Timot. 3.16. The whole Scripture is Theopneustos, inspired of God/ and profitable unto doctrine/ unto improof/ unto correction/ unto erudition which is in righteousness/ that the man of God may be absolute/ perfect fully furnished unto every good work. Now if only the Scriptures be Theopnestos, and sufficient to make God's children absolutely perfect/ even fully furnistied to every good work/ what blasphemy is it to say/ sundry inconveniences would grow/ if men's writings were not imposed upon the public assemblies? And in this your wisdom/ let us see what is the chiefest inconueniency that would grow. You say every frantic spirit (of which sort there be many in the ministery) would not only be unlike themselves/ but vary from others. I answered/ and still do/ that the Papists have not so weak a reason for their Idolatrous liturgies/ Rubrics, & Canons. You say it appeareth by all my Arguments/ how meet a man I am to judge the weight of reasons alleged by the Papists/ and others: well I am weak/ and you strong/ foolish/ and you wise/ yet might you have showed me a weaker reason which they allege for their constitutions ecclesiastical/ as they call them. But my chief answer was (whereby you might have been satisfied) that if it were but in Phrases the ministery should differ/ it is no sufficient cause to ordain liturgies. And if they offend in matter of doctrine or conversation/ the censure of the Church should help that. The first you grant/ the second also you confess/ that the Church should censure such things: But you say there are sundry other differences in administration of public prayers and Sacraments as in order and ceremonies which the Church is to have regard of/ and not to leave arbitrary. All other ceremonies in God's worship then Christ and his Apostles have prescribed us/ be diabolical/ and not Apostolical. Then/ for all things done in the Church in those public actions/ the offenders must be admonished/ if they transgress the rules of the word. And for the orers you speak of/ you mean circumstances of time/ place/ kneeling/ sitting/ standing etc. of them thet can be no further laws/ then Christ hath prescribed/ that all things be done to edifying/ in comelyves and decency etc. of these to set particular laws/ were to break the law of God/ which leaveth them in the Church's liberty as need requireth/ to the glory of God. In these things to do any thing contrary to the general rules of order/ edifying/ decency etc. the transgressor is by those rules to be instructed/ admonished and censured. Well/ here you have made a fair hand/ to make read prayers but a matter of order/ which is all the worship you have/ to bring in men's writings into the public assemblies/ to make then either rules to bind the conscience/ and so put them in the place of God's book/ or to read them over for praying/ is but a matter of order/ well then put them in your cornered cap/ we have enough rules for the ordering of Christ's spouse/ without such Babylonish ware. Here you say mine experience is not so great as my boldness. I pass not to be judged of you/ it is not like that the enchanters of egypt should know the beauty of Zion: there is a cloud between you and us: we have (blessed be our God) a pillar of fire before us. An other fault you say in my former reason/ is/ that because the censure of the Church should redress defaults/ therefore there needeth no liturgy. Nay take all with you: No fault can be censured that is not a transgression against the rules of God's word, and those to be censured by the doctrine and admonitions of the Church, therefore we need no liturgies. To the word of God only/ aught all men to be bound by covenant/ and for the transgressions thereof only/ to be censured. G. Gifford. The Church hath this power, to ordain according to God's word, & to appoint such orders in matters of circumstance etc. as shall most fitly serve to edification. And then these orders being established the Church is to drive men to the observation of them. I. Greenwood. FIrst/ in this your papistical mud/ I must tell you/ your reading of men's writings for prayer/ is a false worship of God/ and not a matter of circumstance, And for matters of order and circumstance/ which are no part of the worship/ ther can be no other laws made of them/ than Christ hath made: As for ordaining of laws in the church/ it is to plead for unwritten verities/ and to make the law of God unsufficient: neither can it be according to the word/ to make any law/ that God hath not made/ but an adding to his word/ which is execrable pride: these your words then (according to God's word) was but a cloak to cover the grosseves of your position: for the word/ ordain/ or create laws/ is to make some/ that are not made before: let us then see your clean sentence to be this/ The Church hath authority in matters of order & circumstance to make & ordain laws in his Church▪ for his worship: now see how you contradict these Scriptures. Rev. 22.18.19. Prov. 30.5.6. every word of God is pure etc. put nothing to his word lest he reprove thee and thou be found a liar. likewise Deut. 4.2. and 12.32. and Gal. 3.15. though it be but a man's covenant/ when it is confirmed/ no man doth abrogate it/ or superordeine any thing to it. And the second Commandment forbiddeth any such human tradition in the worship of God: all the Pope's trinkets might be brought in by the same ground: We would willingly have seen your warrant for this doctrine/ your bare word is not sufficient to impose other laws than God hath made/ upon his Church. This is the foundation of popery and Anabaptistrie/ to give liberty to make laws in the worship of God. Yet you will go further/ that such laws being ordained and established by public authority/ the discipline and censures of the CHURCH are to drive men to the observation of the same. By your judgement our Saviour CHRIST was an anabaptistical schismatic/ that would not himself/ nor his Disciples/ obey and observe the traditions of the Elders: And what saith he unto pleaders for traditions. It is thus written Mark 7.5. them asked him the pharisees and the Scribes, why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat meat with unwashed hands. Then he answered, surely ISAY hat prophesied well of you hypocrites, as it is written▪ this people honoureth me with their lips but their hearts are far from me. But they worship me in vain, teaching doctrines men's precepts. Fo● you lay the commandment of God aside and observe the tradition of men. And to help fourth your evil matter/ instead of proof from the scripture/ you fall out into furious exclamation against them that desire only to have the word practised: saying/ who is able to imagine the innumerable divisions and offences in the practise of your anabaptistical freedom/ in which you deny the Church to have power to ordain and impose any orders? let all men judge the venemousenes of this tongue/ Christ pronounceth them accursed that add or supper ordain any thing to his word/ and you pronounce judgement of them/ that only obey his word. Shall it be said that Mr. Gifford holdeth/ that the only practise of God's word/ would be the cause of innumerable divisions and offences? This hath been Satan's old accusation in the mouth of the most enemies of Christ's Gospel: now it must be Mr. Giffords' accusation of God's ordinances/ to be insufficient ● unperfect/ etc. fearful is his Apostasy from that truth he hath known. I take it/ it is more like to be Anabaptistry/ to practise any thing without warrant of the word/ to make their own devises laws/ in God's worship/ then to do nothing but what God hath commanded/ within the limits of our callings. For the frantic ministry/ it came of your own words/ that therefore you must needs have a liturgy, because there are many frantic spirits in the ministery? then I say/ it is like you have a frantic ministery/ that cannot be governed without an other liturgy than Christ's Testament: For their great gifts you speak of: I will not compare with them. My reason from the Colossians was that as the church there is commanded to admonish their Pastor Archippus/ if he transgressed/ and to stir him up to his business/ so all minister● that caused divisions/ contrary to the doctrine of Christ/ were to be admonished/ and avoided/ if then repent not: so that the word of God/ and admonition by the same/ if they transgressed/ is the way to keep all men in due order/ and not imposing liturgies upon the church/ besides Christ's Testament. And where you collected thus/ that if read prayers/ and imposed liturgies be Idolatrous/ them where will you find a visible church/ say you. I answered that the true Church might err/ even in this point/ though not in like height of sin. Then you desire/ that the churches of England may find like favour at our hand: M. Barrowes refutation discovery, etc. to which I answer/ let him that handleth that question with you/ show you/ how your sins herein exceed other countries/ and persequ●t such as reprove you. Your church (as you call it) cannot plead ignorance. Your railing speeches/ of blind Schismatics/ Donatists etc. bewray what sweet water is in the heart: if you cannot prove your church to be the established church of CHRIST/ they light all upon yourself. There are none Schismatics, but such as depart from the faith/ show wherein we have transgressed/ and will not be reform. In the mean time you are Schismatics from Christ/ in that you practise the Statutes of omry. You charged us with pride/ for that (you say) we imagine to know more than all the Churches upon earth. This also hath been Satan's old weapon to deface the truth jere. 18.18. why may not a simple babe in Christ see that/ which whole nations have not seen? we cannot but speak the things GOD'S word teacheth us: if we speak truth/ you need not oppose that we judge any man/ it is the word of God shall judge us all/ and I say/ it is an old popish Argument to reason thus (all Churches do such a thing/ therefore it is lawful) except you hold with the Pope/ that the Church cannot err/ which were blasphemous. You are not well pleased that I will not say it is no Church that hath a liturgy imposed upon it/ and because you have so often slandered me/ that I hold it so/ you take great pains to conclude it. I have said that to impose men's writings/ to be read in stead of praying/ is to worship God after a false manner/ that it is a devise of Antichrist/ a dead letter/ quenching the spirit/ not of faith/ Idolatrous is changing the work of the spirit into an Idol/ breaving our Christian liberty/ and so most detestable. By these speeches I condemn all churches say you: this is not true/ I condemn but the sin. But you have said I deny that to be the Church/ that hath any thing ymposed, I say you speak an open untruth/ and remember the judgement of him that inventeth and maketh lies: And God give you grace to repent/ if you belong to him. The consideration of this our discourse/ I heartily commend to be duly and uprightly weighed/ of all that fear God/ who grant us his grace to forsake any sin/ where it shallbe showed us/ by how weak instruments soever it be reproved/ and pardon me all my defaults/ in this my hasty answer. Thus have we seen the unlawfulness of thrusting men's writings upon public assemblies/ and reading instead of praying. A general Argument against their worship, in respect of their present estate, both of Ministers and people. The prayers of such ministers & people, as stand under a false government are not acceptable, not only because they ask amiss, but because they keep not his Commandments: The prayers of such ministers & people as be subject to Antichrist are abominable: Those ministers & people which stand subject to the Bishops and their Courts, are subject to Antichrist etc. Therefore their prayers etc. G. Gifford. These do oncerne the third & fourth accusation, and therefore the answer is included in the answer to them, Yet I take exception against the first, that the Church may be holden by force from executing Gods commandments touching external government, and yet be the true Church of Grd, I alleged the Church that was holden captive in Babylon etc. I. Greenwood. HEre/ after your accustomed manner/ you offer me great wrong: first/ instead of answer/ you alter the question very subtly: than you dismember my former answer/ and not only so/ but you have nether let my former answer be answered/ nor printed. Thus you alter the question/ and answer not/ where the Proposition speaketh of a ministery and people standing under a false government/ you say the Church may be held up force/ from executing Gods commandments in external government/ whereof I never doubted: what is this then/ but to deceive your Reader/ both to judge sinisterly of me/ and be drawn from the truth himself? But indeed you mean not this (holden by force) of civil bondadge or persecution/ for then there were no difference between us/ and mine Argument should stand untouched. You affirm then that the Church may stand under a false government/ enforced thereunto by the tyranny of the enemy/ and yet in that estate be the true apparent Church/ by open profession/ which is nothing/ else/ then that the Church may profess Christianisme and Antichristianisme/ both at a time/ subject in mind to Christ/ and subject to Antichrist in outward obedience. That you hold this doctrine in this place/ the process of your matter proveth/ and to make all plain/ your words in the last writing (which here you sum up) were these. But if the Church at any time be by main force restrained from some privileges, or have some government set over it, which agreeth not with GOD'S word, which it cannot avoid etc. See now how smoothly this man hath put away the cross of Christ/ by teaching men to stand under a government/ contrary to Christ's. I thought the ordinances of the new Testament had been a kingdom that could not be shaken. Heb.: 2.28. that none could have been a member of Christ/ Rev. 14.9 10. 11.1●● that receiveth the mark of the Beast/ though it be but in his hand/ or could be holden a member of Christ/ by outward profession/ that here had been the patience of the Saint's/ to suffer unto death/ rather than to bow down/ either in mind or body to an other government/ then Christ's. How is he a Lord to them that are not governed by him? Well I needed not have stand upon this doctrine/ but that he nether printed my former answer/ nor answered in these points/ and mine own copy taken from me by the Bishops: so that this man may retract what he will and accuse as please him: if he have any common honesty/ let my former answer be seen. But to prove the Church may be subject to an other government than Christ's/ which is even to say/ that a man may give all allegiance by outward practise to the King of spain/ and yet be her Ma●▪ true subject/ He saith/ the Church was holden captive in Babylon/ where he as cunningly hideth himself as before/ though in my last writing I urged him to answer/ whether the Church in Babylon was subject to their Idolatry/ or no. To the civil power I doubt not they were: But if the Priests and Levites stood Priests to the Idolatrous worship in Babylon/ whether the people of Israel bowed down to the outward practice and obedience of their Idolatry/ or no: then/ if they did so/ whether they stood by profession the children of God/ or apostatate in that estate None of these things have you answered me. Let the examples of Hanania/ Mishaell/ and Azarin testify Dan. 3. The people that returned repent their transgressions/ where they had any of them sinned/ and made a new covenant with the Lord/ before they were received/ Ezra 9.14.15. and 10. Cap. 2.3.8. Yea the voice of God was this/ come out of her my people/ and touch no unclean thing and I willbe your God. We are before thee (saith Ezra) in our trespass/ and we cannot stand before thee because of it. Esa 52.11 Jerem 51.6.45. You never renounced your Antichristian ministery/ you never made new covenant since the deep defection of Popery/ but still minister in that kingdom/ and will not repent/ yet boast yourselves to be the Church of God/ crying out/ the Temple the Temple. I answer then directly/ that whiles you stand subject unto/ and practize and communicate with other orders and governments/ then Christ's/ you are not by outward profession the Churches of Christ. I may not with you omit the word (wilful) because you persecute the light/ and so much higher is your sin. Here I must forewarn the Reader/ with diligence to consider Mr. Giffords' disagreement and mine/ he having accused me of a fundamental heresy (as he calleth it) whereas he himself still maintaineth most gross errors/ where of I reproved him/ yet he persisteth/ Namely/ that the regenerate man may be said to stand in bondage to sin/ by reason of the corruption of the flesh that is in us/ and of our unperfectness in this life. Then/ that one standing in outward bondage to open known sin/ may in that estate be accounted and communicated with/ as the servant of Christ by outward profession/ both at one instant: which is as much to say/ we may be to man's sight/ the servant of the devil/ and the servant of Christ/ both at one time/ by outward profession: so none should be excommunicate: none be without/ te world and the church light and darkness/ Christ and Belial/ should be mingled together. The heresy whereof/ he most unjustly and untruly proclaimeth to be maintained by us/ is/ that the regenerate man consenteth not to sin/ after regeneration/ although in the last writing I testified the contrary: Namely that the whole church might err/ might commit some kind of Idolatry/ that no man was free from committing sin etc. And now I testify to all the world/ that I was never infected with any such Anabaptistry, but have every where resisted such dannable heresy. I have learned and taught many degrees of sin/ and differences of transgressions/ which the dear children of God fall into/ after regeneration/ in thought word and deed/ of ignorance/ of knowledge/ of presumption/ slips/ transgressions/ and obstinate sin: Yea that there is no sin/ except ehe sin against the Holy Ghost/ but God's children/ may commit it after regeneration/ and be renewed by repentance/ which we ought to pray for in all sinners/ but that one sin except. Not that men should hereupon take boldness to sin/ because God giveth repentance to his elect/ wherein the riches of his mercy appeareth/ but rather serve him in trembling and fear/ as a jealous God/ least with Esaw we find no place to repentance/ though we seek it with tears. Again/ though in God's sight/ his elected are never forsaken utterly/ nor the Holy Ghost utterly extinguished in the repenerate/ yet to man's judgement he that committeth open known sin/ and persisteth obstinately in the same/ cannot be held the child of God to us/ by outward profession/ but must be cut of Numbers 15.27.31. Math. 18.17. and 1. Cor. 5. till they repent: Much more none that stand open professed members of te false church/ subject by the least outward bowing down to this antichristian Hierarchy, and so continuing in bondage to a false government/ can be held of us te true professors of Christ's Gospel. Now let us peruse te several doctrines. Mr. Gifford affirmeth/ that the true church might stand in bondage to a false government/ yet in that estate be held/ and communicated with/ as the true Church/ by outward profession: his words in way of proof/ be these. They may with St. Paul say/ it is no longer I that do it/ but sin that dwelleth in me: for if the yoke wherewith he was held captive in part/ could not take from him/ but that he was the Lords free servant/ it is no reason that some outward bondage should make the Church not to be the spouse of Christ. If a man command his wife (saith he) to do a thing/ and there be violent force to withhold her/ she is not to be blamed. Rom. 7. Mine answer to this he durst not print/ but perverteth my words/ so many as pleaseth him/ neither can I yet come by a copy of my former writing to show/ what I then replied. Now consider what governmnet is/ and what bondage is/ and than behold the wickedness of this man: Spiritual governmet is that sovereignty/ Dominion: and regiment that Christ jesus/ by his spirit/ laws/ ordinances/ and officer's/ exerciseth in and over his church/ as it is written: And thou Bethleem juda art not the least among the Princes of juda, for out of thee shall come a governor that shall govern my people Israel. again/ thy Sceptre is an for lasting Sceptre. I have set my king upon Zion my Holy mountain, Mat. 2.6. Psa. 2. and 45. and 110. these laws and ordinances whereby this king reigneth/ are called a kingdom that cannot be shaken Heb. 12.28. Mal 12.6 they that have not him to reign over them/ be by outward profession none of his. If I be your lord, where is my honour? again those mine enemies which would not that I should reign over them, bring bether, and slay them before me. Luke 19.27 Also bondage or servitude is to be all commandment/ and to yield obedience in subjection. Now to be in outward bondage to an other outward government/ other laws/ officers/ and ordinances than Christ's/ is to be by outward subjection servantes of Antichrist/ which layeth an other foundation: for by outward profession we cannot stand (to man's judgement) professed subjects to two kings at enimitye/ But we must be an enemy to the one/ and so esteemed of all men/ much less members unto two divers heads. This then is mine answer here. 1. That it is an heresy to say a man may stand in bondage to open known sin/ and the free servant of Christ to us by outward profession/ both at one instant. 2. That it is a falsifying of the Scripture/ to say that St. Paul (in the 7. to the Romans) was in bondage to sin/ when he/ in the inner man resisted sin/ and daily prevailed against the sin/ which his flesh would have led him captive in/ if there had not been a stronger power to overcome that enemy. For he there reasoneth of the benefit of the law/ to manifest our sin/ and our conquest over sin by daily repentance/ and reproving of sin in ourselves/ fighting against sin/ victory over sin/ though it continually rebel. 3. How blasphemous were it to continue in known sin/ in bondage to it/ and to say/ it is sin that dwelleth in us/ and not we/ and so still to bless ourselves without amendment. O horrible perverting of the Scriptures to men's destruction. 2. Pet. 3.16.4. That there is no Argument to be drawn/ nor consequence to follow/ from the relics of sin/ and corruption of the flesh in one man/ or the whole Church/ and a professed bondage to all false government: no not between the open committing of sin in the whole Church/ or some members thereof/ and a professed homage and subjection unto a false government/ we cannot be partakers with the false Church and true/ at no hand. 1. Cor. 10.21/5. lastly/ that the subjection to an other government/ is as a wife that committeth adultery. Hosea 2. I then reason thus on the contrary with you. Any man that after regeneration committeth open known sin/ and continueth obstinate/ as a bond servant thereunto/ standeth not the professed servant of Christ/ but of sin Ezechiel. 18. till he repent/ so the whole Church/ that persisteth in open known sin/ and perseqwieth the messengers that reprove the same. Then/ as every member of the false Church standeth a professed servant of sin/ so the whole assemblies that stand professed subjects of false government/ no censures sf admonition belonging unto them/ but calling of them to repentance and separation from the false Church. Then/ as the wife that giveth herself to be one with an other man/ is an adulteress Rom. 7.3. so that Church that subjecteth herself to an other government/ ordinances/ and laws than Christ's/ is an harlot. Now let all men say/ whether I had not just cause to say/ you spoke like a carnal libertine/ and an Atheist▪ yea now/ as one having his conscience ●eared/ to affirm/ that the Church/ remaining in open know bondage to a false government/ may say as Paul said/ it is not I that sin. And/ that continuing in that adultery/ she is the spouse of Christ by outward profession. You would say it were a false Argument/ to say/ the Church hath many imperfections/ ignorances/ transgressions etc. therefore standeth in bondage to sin/ nay standeth in bondage to an other head/ and an other government than Christ's/ Even so/ to say the Church doth sin/ therefore may continue in bondage to sin/ is false doctrine: nay/ to say it may stand in open professed subjection to Antichrist/ and be esteemed the CHURCH of CHRIST by outward profession in that estate/ is damnable doctrine. It is the flat contradiction of all the rules of the Scripture/ to say/ a man may stand in bondage to sin/ and the free servaunt● of Christ by outward profession/ by man's judgement/ at one time/ seeing the obstinate offenders are to be cast out of the assembly: But now/ though the regenerate may fall into these high sins/ and continue in their sin a long time/ yea many years deprived of GOD'S grace/ to man's seeming/ and to us is the servant of Satan for any thing we see/ yet the Spirit of GOD is never utterly extinguished or departed/ after regeneration/ but will recover the man again/ and bring him to repentance/ as David after a whole year/ for the strong man once displaced and cast out by a stronger than he/ the spirit never utterly departeth again/ for than it were impossible that man should be renewed Mat. 1.2.31. Heb. 10.26 and 6.4. And hereupon I might say/ Paul never continued captive in sin/ but was always renewed by repentance. Further/ this spirit of God (the sparks whereof were never quenched utterly) did not/ nor could not consent or give place unto sin/ for here is the enimitye and battle between the spirit and the flesh/ every where spoken of Gal. 5,16.17. Rom. 7. May I not now say then/ that Paul never continued captive unto sin/ nor consented unto sin concerning the Inner man or gave place unto sin in that place mentioned/ without heresy: And still reprove you/ that when Paul reasoneth of the old man/ or corruption in him/ you will conclude it of the new man/ or inner man/ and of the whole man/ when you see evidently/ he opposeth the one against the other: For whiles the spirit striveth against sin/ and reigneth in us/ though the flesh rebel/ and cause us to sin seven times a day/ yet are we not overcome of sin/ so to remain in bondage to sin/ that it should continue to reign in us/ as you may see in the same chapter Rom. 7.5.6. Where you allege then/ that Paul saw a law in his members/ which did lead him captive unto sin/ you do falsify the text: for he saith leading me captive/ and not did lead etc. for there was a stronger man/ or a stronger than man/ that suffered not the law of his members to reign: for saith he/ I myself in my mind serve the law of God/ but in the flesh the law of sin/ so that the whole man could not be said to serve sin. But (say you) afterward as concerning then the inner man we may be said to serve the law of God/ and thereupon be called the free servants of Christ/ notwithstanding this corruption of sin in the flesh: So the whole man by reason of our imperfectness may be said to be the servants of sin. No/ it is not true/ for the whole man is called after the part thath hat greather rule in us: as if the flesh rule in us/ we are the servaunts of sin/ and led by Satan at his pleasure/ but if the Spirit rule in us/ we are the servants of God/ sons of God/ Saints of God/ Citizens of jerusalem/ holy and free people/ kings/ and Priests: not that we are perfect/ or sin not/ but that sin reigneth not in us/ but the spirit/ whereby we suppress sin/ reprove sin/ strive against sin/ subdue sin/ and though we fall seven times/ yet we rise again by repentance/ and serve not sin. Rightly therefore did I say/ that no man can serve two masters: for his servants we are to whom we give ● ourselves as servants to obey/ whether it be of sin/ unto death/ or of obedience/ unto righteousness. Rom. 6.16.18. being made free from sin/ we are made the servants of righteousness: So that the regenerate man/ or he that is by outward profession the servant of Christ/ cannot be called the servant of sin/ by reason of the corruption of the old man/ and dregs of sin/ neither can he that standeth in bondage to any sin/ and giveth himself over to it/ be called in that estate the servant of Christ/ till he repent/ but the servant of sin. 2. Pet. 2.19. Therefore you must recant your false interpretation of Paul in the 7. to the Rom. and cease your blasphemous railings/ in calling the truth of God/ the rock of Brownisme. And consider the height of your sin/ by concluding a bondage unto sin of the wholeman/ for the corruptions of the flesh/ which through the work of the Spirit is daily subdued/ though never utterly rooted out of our earthly members: and from the committing sin through frailty/ an obstinate professed bondage to the false Church/ false government/ false ministery etc. which is plainly the mark of the Beast/ to whom with outward obedience they bow down/ and stand servants in his kingdom Revel. 14.9.11.12. As for the 4. of the Galat. 26. where the Apostle saith/ jerusalem which is above is free with her Children/ yo udurst not open it/ nor expound it/ but blaspheme/ rail/ and slander/ as though we should plead for such a freedom/ as should detract from Magistrates lawful authorities/ from having Gods ordinances established by commandment upon the Church etc. yea/ that we should hold anabaptistical freedom/ as though we had power not to commit/ or consent unto sin whereas we have every where by practice and protestation/ by word and writing testified to our Sovereign Prince/ and to all men/ the contrary. But Satan that old accuser and detractor of God's children/ to deceive the world/ sendeth out such lying spirits to deface the truth. We/ with all subjection and willing obedience to our sovereign. Prince/ teach all men their obedience to the higher powers: Subjects to Magistrates/ Flock to Overseers/ childs to Parents/ wines to their husband's/ servantes to their Masters etc. in all things in the Lord: and if they command us any thing contrary to the law of God/ we then patiently suffer without resistance/ or rebellious thaughtes: The freedom than we have to speak of here/ which Christ hath purchased for us/ is/ first that triumph over Hell/ Death/ and damnation/ through the merits of Christ apprehended by faith/ waited for in hope/ Rom. 8. Secondly/ that because we were sons by election/ he giveth us the spirit of adoption/ and sanctification/ whereby we mortify the flesh/ have reign and dominion over sin/ that it shall never reign in us more unto condemnation/ repenting daily our trespasses/ and craving pardon for our hidden sins/ and secret faults. Thirdly/ we are through the same spirit and word of truth delivered from all subjection of antichrist/ of the false Church/ false ministery/ false government etc. And. they that have not this freedom/ are not by outward profession the servants of Christ. Further/ we have freedom from all traditions of men that seeing we are bought with a price/ we are no longer servants of men/ to be in bondage to any beggarly rudiments or devises of men/ but in all peaceable manner/ to worship and serve God within the limits of our callings/ according to the word of God/ as it is revealed unto us: We have freedom to speak the truth with all boldness/ though all men should inhibit us: we would not have the doctrine limited/ stinted/ bought and sold/ for jewishe tithes or mercenary stipends. We have freedom to separate from such false▪ prophets as yourself/ to come out of Babel etc. And in the true Church to reprove and withstand any sin or traditions of men in due order/ only to be guided and governed by Christ's laws and ordinances: In all this I trust you shall not find any Anabaptistrie in the freedom we profess: this is the truth of the Gospel/ whereby we are made free. Thus than we still affirm/ that they which stand in open known bondage to sin/ are the servants of sin/ and not of CHRIST/ till they repent/ by outward profession. Further/ that allwhich stand members of your parish assemblies/ stand not members of CHRIST by outward profession/ but in bondage to a false and Antichristian ministry/ government/ worship etc. and the bond woman and her son must be cast out. Further/ for all liturgies, and other devises of men besides the canonical Scriptures and lively graces of his Spirit/ we hold they ought not to be brought into the public assemblies/ nor imposed upon men's consciences: But if any will write such/ or read such/ let it be for their private use/ as all other men's writings: we despise not any directions by word or writing/ that may further us any way to the practise of GOD'S ordinances/ yet may they neither be imposed upon men's consciences/ not be made a part of GOD'S worship. The Lord therefore that hath thus far fourth discovered the ●haff and mist of antichrist's delusions/ even to babes and sucklings/ publish the glorious light of his blessed Gospel/ that the people may see the counterfeit jugglings of all such false prophets/ and come out from amongst them/ that you may be ashamed of your execrable wares/ and forsake your Romish Priesthood/ and give glory to God/ that yet offereth grace. Amen. Christ's unworthy witness for the truth of his Gospel JOHN GREENWOOD. FINIS. A Few observations of Mr. Giffards' last cavils about stinted read prayers/ and devised Leitourgies. HAving heretofore written an answer to Mr. George Giffard's pretended defence of stinted read prayers and devised Leitourgies/ and since received an empty reply/ wherein he doth nothing less than yield to any sound reason alleged/ but ungodly cavilleth at and perversely wresteth the sense of so much as he toucheth/ I seeing no cause of further strife (his former convinced) to intermeddle again with particular handling of his chaff and smoke/ his reasons in effect the same before answered/ have only thought it my duty to illustrate unto the Readers/ some few brief points abused by him/ that they may the better be able to judge of the former writings/ where unto with these few helps following I refer the trial. Whereas I alleged out of the 8. to the Rom. and out of the 4. to the Galath. that in the very time and action of our praying to God/ the spirit of God was the only help/ no other help mentioned or that can be collected in the Scriptures/ Mr. Giffard having granted that reading prayer is not praying/ doth now answer/ that howsoever the Scripture doth extol and magnify outward helps and means, yet when they are compared with God which worketh all in all by them, or when the Scripture will set forth the efficacy and work to be his alone, they are either not mentioned, or else if they be mentioned, so cast down, as if they were nothing. God buildeth his Church (saith he) by the ministery of men, yet Paul is said to plant, Apollo's to Water, but God to give the increase 1. Cor, 3. and therefore to gather from those places Rom. 8. Gala.▪ 4. that there need or may be no outward help or means in the very action and instant of praying, is far awry. In which answer it evidently appeareth he is so bend to turn away all truth and raise new strife/ as there can be no expectation of agreement: There is no sequence/ neither doth the scripture alleged prove his own reason/ so that nothing hangs together. No man doubteth but that sometimes and in some places of scripture the outward means of begetting and increasing faith is only recited/ and sometimes the secret work of God's spirit only/ sometimes both/ when yet they are not divided but go together/ and all of God both inward work and outward means/ though in way of comparison I never so read/ but rather the one repeated for both: For shall I say/ that when the work of God and preaching thereof is showed to be the power of God unto salvation/ that the inward work of the Spirit is therefore not mentioned/ because the other is of God? then both inward and outward means being of God/ and Gods own work/ though the one by instrument/ that there is silencing of the one in way of comparison/ is not true. But all this is nothing to our matter: He should plainly have affirmed/ that from these places Rom. 8. and Gal. 4. it cannot be proved/ that in the very instant time and action of hour praying to God/ the spirit only instructeth/ without outward helps of instruction/ and he should have seen I could prove (as then I did) the contrary unto him Rom. 8.26. The spirit doth together supply or help our infirmities for we know not what to pray as we ought, but the spirit itself maketh request for us with sighs and groans unutterable. In the action of praying the spirit is here set down in this place to be the means and help of instruction/ teaching us to ask aright/ no other means or helps of instruction in that instant time and action of praying mentioned in this or any other place of scripture: Therefore in the time of our praying and laying our hearts open to God/ the Spirit only doth instruct and openeth our mouth. In this place let the word synan●ilambanetai be well considered. Again Gal. 4.6 it is said because ye are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into your hearts crying, Abba, Father, The Argument here is the same thet before: this word (crying) showeth the work of his Spirit or rather office/ in our continual occasions of prayer to direct us to unburden and unfold the heart/ so that in the instant action we see no other. And where I showed him that reading in the action of praying could not be called an help of instruction at that time when we were pouring forth our hearts unto God/ the eyes and hands life up to heave/ our meditation fixed upon our known occasions/ and heart and mouth unfolding them/ my reason this/ That the mind and body could not be intent upon two diverse distinct and several exercises and duties of mind and body at one time and instant/ he inverteth my words/ and stealeth them as a new shift to help himself (as he supposeth) returning them thus in way of question/ demanding whether fasting/ lifting up our eyes and hands to heaven/ prostrating the body and kneeling be prayer itself/ or outward means and helps to make the prayer more fervent. Every simple man will laugh at him (saith he) if he make them prayer itself: and if they be helps/ then I have brought the former proofs not from an idle/ but from an unsound brain. Leave scorning and reproach/ and consider what helps we did all this time entreat of was it not instruction of the mind by some other spiritual exercise then prayer in praying/ will he call fasting/ kneeling etc. instructions of the mind what to pray? then he must needs plead for his Image and all popery/ if these bodily actions and gestures be instruction of the mind/ which are but preparations to make the body serviceable and apt to and in this duty. Further/ how learnedly he disputeth to make reading one of these bodily gestures or bodily actions only/ let it be considered of. And as he confoundeth these bodily exercises and spiritual exercises/ so he showeth himself ignorant and unable to discern spiritual gifts and exercises one from an other/ with the distinct use of them: demanding whither the voice of an other tha● prayeth/ be an outward help or prayer itself/ an outward means to make our prayer more fervent. He thinketh I will be laughed at/ if I say it be prayer itself. Sure if in any assembly/ or where two or three are in Christ's name gathered together epito●uto and homothymadon unto the same thing and with one mind/ for avoiding confusion they do use but one voice/ and that by God's order and commandment/ the others hearts going with the words and saying Amen, they that hear pray not as well as he that according to God's ordinance speaketh/ our public prayers are not the prayers of the Church/ but of him that speaketh only. But now God hath otherwise taught 1. Cor. 14. and Acts. 4. yt must needs be/ that Mr. Giss. is in great error to think none but he that speaketh prayeth. I take then such hearing of an others voice/ praying/ and this to be a foul error to publish the contrary but that prayer both edifieth him that speaketh and him that heareth/ and together in heart prayeth/ I make no doubt. Yet hereupon to affirm/ that here are other means of instruction to be used in the instant action of praying then praying itself/ were as gross as the other/ and both a confounding of spiritual exercises/ and flat contradiction of the Scripture/ especially so divers weighty actions of mind and body/ as proseuche, and anagnosis, pouring out our hearts to God in prayer/ and reading. At other times I did not only allow/ but teach/ that we have all the days of our lives need to be instructed to pray aright/ and that reading is a blessed means thereunto. So that you see whiles you of purpose will oppose/ you run yourself upon the rock: in stead of justifying your accusation of two heresies to be found in my first reason/ you have published this folly/ which you must retract/ if you will obey the truth. Mr. Giffard then granting/ that reading is but to help to prayer and not praying/ and now being showed that it can be no help in that instant action of praying/ let us proceed to peruse an other of his mistake and wilful perverting. I affirming that the holy Ghost never enjoined us to any certain number of words by stint and limitation in praying/ as commanding the very words to be said over when we pray/ he every where in his writings as a supposed foundation to their liturgy and Collects/ alleged out of Numbers the 6. Mat. 6. Lu. 11. example of Psalms/ and now Deu. 26. that the Lord did by commandment bind them to those very words saying over/ when they prayed or blessed in those forms which are there prescribed. For my reasons in disproving this popish carnal conceit/ I refer the Reader to my former answer to his plublished pretended defence of reading for praying. One reason was drawn from the words of the text Numb. 6.32. where the hebrew words Coh Tebara●u, thus shall you bless/ do not import a tying than to the very words of this form in blessing/ but to the rules and instructions there taught them concerning the matter itself for their direction/ which I collected by this word Coh, which is an adverb of similitude/ signifying with us as much as (after this manner) and therefore cannot be ●o say the same words/ but according to the same instructions. Where first he reproacheth me for that Tebaracu was false printed/ thereupon charging me I cannot read two words right of Hebrew/ which were no great ignominy in their priesthood: But shall we say Mr. Giff. cannot read two words in latin rightly/ because in the 28. page of his book he repeateth out of Augustine/ upoli sui/ for populi sui? This I mention/ as sorry to see the defender of his false Hierarchy so empty/ to leave found doctrine/ and thus to trifle: if he had been at the print/ it should have been amended it seemeth. Now to the doctrine gathered of this word Coh. Mr. give. would invert the words in his own sense/ thus: that where I said/ the Lord did not command to say the same words but the like/ that is according to those directions of doctrine/ he gathereth/ that I should affirm it unlawful to use those words at all/ yea that they might not use all or any of these words at any time. Whether this be a Christian interpretation of my words or no/ I leave not only to all men's/ but chiefly to his own conscience to be considered. Yet he still covertly persisting in his error/ produceth a place of scripture/ where the word Coh (as he thinketh) is used for the saying of the very words. Exod.;. The Lord said to Moses/ Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel Eheie hath sent me unto ye/ moreover God said unto Moses/ thus shalt thou say unto them/ The God of your Fathers etc. According to Mr. Grenewoods interpretation (saith he) Moses is not commanded to say those words/ but the like. True/ he is not here bound to this certain number of words/ or the same words. If then they should say/ what is his name that hath sent thee/ he may not say Eheie hath sent me/ because God said Coh etc. Now Mr. Giffard showeth himself ashifter: I did never hold it unlawful to use any words of the Scripture as need required/ it is your slander: where you have in all your books affirmed we hold it unlawful to say thy kingdom come/ or use any phrase of Scripture to right use: your woeful wresting of the tongue for untruths/ will turn to your further judgement. I proved only by the word Coh, which signifieth (after this manner) that God commanded not the very certain number of words to be said. And where I said the word Coh was so used in all the Prophets (when they say/ Thus saith the Lord) to this end/ that neither the holy Ghost had registredal their very words they spoke▪ nor that they were tied to the prescript number of words/ he would have it thought I should hold those words which are recorded/ not to be the words of God/ which wresting of my words/ is but his empty quarrelling to turn away this firm doctrine: namely/ that God did in those forms of prayer mentioned by him/ prescribe the some of their blessings and petitions/ whereunto they ought according to their several occasions within the limits of these doctrines/ frame their suits and desires/ and did not tie them to a certain number of words. Now he finding himself pressed/ in that all his proofs are at once brought to be weapons against him rather than warrant/ It being proved unto him that those forms are repeated in other words in other places/ and that the Priests used other in blessing the people/ as Eli blessed Hanna: also that the Apostles used other words in prayer/ and never that very form and number of words/ he plainly denieth that our question was about the binding and limiting to the very words by commandment/ and saith our question was/ whither it were idolatry to use those prescript phrases or no. Thus the man is fled/ not only contradicting all his writings/ making void his proofs/ but granting as much as I affirmed upon the word COH hath given me the whole cause against ●is will: For if these places will not serve to prove an apportioning by number and stint upon commandment/ then Mr. Gissard hath no proof for his Collect●/ no though these had been so/ yet his patched broken mass book should have been far from coming in place of true pr●yer. But that this is a popish dream to think in prayer they were bound to some certain number of words saying over/ it was also convinced unto him by the Greek word Houtos, where Christ commandeth his Disciples saying/ When you pray, pray thus, Our Father, etc. Which word Thus Mat. 6.9. singnifieth (after this manner) or according to this form/ rules/ and instructions: for if the commandment should go to bind us to the very words/ then this word (when you pray) would bind us never to use other words/ for the text saith/ when you pray, say thus. To this he answereth/ that respecting the rules for matters/ when is as much as whensoever you pray/ because we may not depart from those matters contained in those general petitions: But in words it is not so there/ We must consider to distinguish et●3. Well/ hath he not lost himself/ and still against his will yielded the matter: namely that we are not in these forms of prayer bound to the very words saying over/ and that the holy Ghost did never by commandment stint or limit us to any words in praying/ which in deed is common with enchanters: And I take it he will easily yield me this point/ for if he remember Augustine to teach/ that then we pray that prayer which Christ taught his Disciples/ when our prayers are grounded upon those doctrines and instructions/ or to that effect: And Calvine to say: the Son of man would not prescribe us what words we must use in prayer/ he should have put us to less trouble: So that besides his mass-book was never prescribed by the Lord himself or warrant of his word/ he seeth it unlawful to apportion/ limit and stint as by measure and weight certain numbers of words/ sentences etc. in prayer. As for his examples of the Psalms: I refer to my former answer/ namely/ that praying is our thing/ and singing a psalm an other. Now than we have heard that reading is not praying or any help to pray in the instant action of praying/ when we should power forth our own hearts to God: Also that it is unlawful to bind man to numbers of words or sentences in praying. Let us come to the first general argument/ which is this. No Apocrypha must be brought into the public assemblies/ for there only God's word and the lively voice of his own graces must be heard in the public assemblies: But men's writings and the reading them over for prayer are Apocrypha: Therefore may not be brought into the public assemblies/ either for laws or worship. Here he finds fault with the word Apocrypha (although it hath been an ancient word in this sense/ and now published in their Bibles to distinguish other writings from the authentic scriptures) willing me to go to the matter itself/ drawing by firm conclusion/ that nothing is to be allowed any place in the Church/ which is not the perfect rule itself in writing or without error uttered in speech/ and he will yield. This I did prove unto him by an Argument he was not able to answer/ and did leave out the word Apocrypha, thus. Only the Canonical Scriptures and lively voice of Gods own graces are to be brought into the public assemblies for doctrine and prayer: But men's writings or Collections are neither Canonical Scripture/ nor the lively voice of God's graces in such as he hath appointed to speak in the public assemblies. Therefore no man's writings may be brought into nor imposed upon the public assemblies for doctrine and prayer. Now where he cavilleth about the perfectness of the rule and absolute perfectness of the graces/ it doth not help him: For the word of GOD being of necessity by the law and ordinance of God/ to be read in our own language/ I trust he will not deny it to be the written word of GOD for the unperfectness of the translation/ being (to the best search the Church can make) scanned by the original tongue and still amended/ or at least the Church no further bound to it/ then it shall be found to be the perfect rule: so likewise the lively voice of GOD'S graces are not for the imperfectness to be excluded/ being Gods appointed ordinance/ neither is any fault in the translation to be allowed/ and error in doctrine or prayer are presently to be admonished and repent of. Master Giffard then must deny the Bible translated into our own language to be the Canonical Scriptures/ and deny the lively voice of GOD'S lawful officers/ and such as are thereunto called/ in doctrine and prayer/ to be the manifestations of the Spirit and utterance of God's graces for the assembly/ or else grant the proposition firm: And if he can put dead men's writings into the place of either of these/ I will yield. In the mean time I hold such translations to be the word of GOD/ and by God's ordinance put into our own language/ to all our knowledges retaining the words of GOD/ which word and the lively use of Gods own graces in the mouth of such as he thereunto appointeth/ are only to be brought into the public assemblies for prayer and doctrine/ for GOD hath commanded these unto us as his own ordinances in his assemblies/ and no other means whereby either God speaketh unto us/ or his people unto him/ in the Congregation. To this all the Scriptures bear witness/ the word is always firm/ confirmed with miracles from heaven/ and commended to us by Christ/ the prophets and Apostles/ to be the foundation/ Canon/ light/ lantern/ etc. the graces of the Spirit given for the interpretation/ prayer/ doctrine etc. Christ is ascended up into heaven/ and hath given gifts unto men to serve their time and minister in their place in this house. These graces still renewed/ not only in those called of GOD in this service for their daily administration/ but new workmen thrust forth into this harvest/ as the Lord of the house disposeth: which graces of his Spirit are compared to two olive branches/ which empty out of themselves thorough two golden pipes. Zacharie 4.12. And to seven thunders which utter their voices that cannot be written. Away therefore with your patched mass-book/ it may neither stand for a foundation in God's house/ nor for the lively voices of these thunders: you make it a monstrous Idol by putting it in either of these uses/ yet you will make it serve for both. We have nothing to do with your matters of order/ as you understand that order for time/ place/ etc. we reason of the Spiritual action itself/ when we entreat of the means whereby God speaketh to us/ and appointeth us to speak unto him. We can cast out the errors in the translation or doctrine or prayer/ and yet reeaine God's word in our own language/ and the lively voice of his graces in the ●assemblie: When you can do so with your devices and new hatched Leitourgies we will give ear unto you and them/ till than we think of your counterfeit plays and pleas for your Idols and detestable sacrilege and high profanation of GOD'S ordinances with jannes' and jambres to resist the truth. Paraphrases we hold to be men's writings and expositions/ and not the word of GOD/ nor the lively voice of God's grace of interpretation or prayer/ therefore to be excluded this place of service unto God. Thus you see the further you wrestle/ the further you make your wares/ the best of them/ odious to every godly conscience. You say I deceive the simple by giving them one crab amongst many apples: but you may behold your best apples such as the holy GHOST hath foretold us Revelation. 18. to be enticements to evil: It is well you will grant my Propositions so sound: and I would wish (if such de GOD'S will) they might be better savoured. Now because I will not stand either repeating or contending about Syllogisms/ I will take this much yielded of your own conclusions/ which is as much in effect as I have affirmed were you teach me thus to reason. No man's writings are the undoubted truth of God/ but have errors and imperfections: therefore men cannot further ground upon them/ then they be consonant to the Canonical Scriptures. Again/ The Church is builded upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets: therefore our faith is not to rest upon men's writings. Whereupon doth necessarily follow/ that if men's writings may not be builded upon nor rested upon/ how should you dream it lawful to impose them for laws upon the public assemblies/ or to have them there read to bear rule as the words of God? And this you confessed in an other of your writings/ that GOD spoke unto us out of his undoubted word/ or by his own word. If then GOD speak not unto us by men's writings that be of private interpretation/ in the assembly/ nor that they can be made groundwork to build our faith upon/ or to rest assured upon/ it will be granted I hope that they are not to be imposed v●on the public assemblies as laws and rules/ but left to every man's private use in their liberty/ as they will answer for themselves what use they put them to/ and whither they do not prefer them before the book of GOD/ or prejudice themselves by them. This first point is then plain/ That only GOD'S undoubted word is to be imposed/ brought in/ and maintained in the public assemblies as laws and rules/ no other writings being authentic or Canonical. But here Mr. Giffard doth in effect affirm/ that the word of God itself is not authentic or Canonical/ except in the Hebrew or Greek Copy: Wherein he goeth a little beyond the Papists/ that will yet allow the word of GOD in latin: And if it should be defended/ that the word of GOD were not the word itself that we have in our own language/ it will follow that no man could have assurance of faith/ except he understood both Hebrew and Greek/ yea be able sound to interpret the Scriptures in both. If the translations be so far men's writings that it ceaseth generally to be the word of GOD that is not written in Hebrew or Greek/ and men's writings not to be grounded or rested upon/ where shall our assurance stand? And might not Mr. Giffard as well say the Hebrew and Greek Copi● are but paper anky●ck/ many faults and errors by the print in vowels/ accents letters/ and so conclude we had not Authentic or canonical Scriptures at all/ except men's erroneous writings might be of equal authority in the assembly that the Scriptures? must he not bear with me in accounting him an Atheist or Libertine in thus reasoning? Hence than we see whiles you go about to abase the Canonical Scriptures/ and extol your patched Le●tourgie you fall into many blasphemies/ as I have before told you. We hold it the word of GOD in what language soever/ still rejecting the errors in the print/ in the translations etc. as they are known unto us/ and not the word y● self for the imperfections or errors in the translation and print. Now when you can make that which remaineth the undoubted word of God/ not agreeable only but an Authentic approved Canonical Scripture/ authorized from God to be the very eternal foundation and rules/ limits and laws given by himself unto his people you may lift up your 〈◊〉 Dagon into this place/ if there be some truth in their writings (as what men's writings have not some/ and the holy name of GOD very much) yet is that truth in the Scripture itself and here so mingled with chaff/ that it were not only unprofitable and a hindrance of the true use of GOD'S word/ but an abolishing and defacing of the word itself/ the majesty whereof ought to terrify you from this presumption. And where you say that you decide not controversies by any translation/ but by the Authentic Copies of the Hebrew and Greek/ I trust you speak only of such as are able by the interpretation thereof so to decide controversies/ and hold it not unlawful for any such as have not that help/ to convince error by the power of the word and conferring one place with an other in any translation/ according to the analogy of faith/ though I grant we ought to use the best approved. But if this were not lawful surely no man might prophesy in the Church/ which hath not the gift of interpretation of the tongue/ neither might any affirm any Scripture to be true but they which have knowledge of tongues: How blasphemous is this g●are/ whiles you are ignorant of the power/ wisdom and agreement of the word and Spirit and diversity of gifts given unto men: The Word and the Spirit approve each other/ and bear w●●ness each of other/ in what language soever GOD giveth it/ to our understanding. prophesy and knowledge of tongues are two several gifts not always given to one member/ but distributed as God in his wisdom hath appointed. 1. Cor. 12. and prophesy commanded for the more excellent Cap. 14. But this is sufficient in this place/ that the word of God is the word of God in what language soever/ and to account yt being verbatim translated or at least so far forth faithfully translated/ man's writing/ were blasphemy: but men's writings can never be so holden the authentic Scriptures of God/ how agreeable to the wo●● soever they be. My argument is then firm/ and thus left upon you: Those writings which be not the word of God being imperfect/ and never without error/ may not be imponed as laws and Canons upon the public assemblies/ or there be read or interpreted/ or offered up in worship: But such are all men's writings that be not the authentic word of God itself▪ The public assemblies are only bound to the reading and interpretation of the Scriptures/ which God hath ordained to be read in a known language/ and for prayer and prophesy hath ordained the lively voice of his own graces in the mouth of such as he hath appointed to be the mouth of the Congregation unto him and his mouth unto them. So that your patched liturgy/ paraphrases songs in rhyme/ homilies/ and all your dead men's writings/ are cast forth of the public assemblies/ and manifest to be Idols when they are thrust into that place. Now where I alleged that the binding of the public assembly/ yea of all assemblies/ to certain writings of men every day and year their number and portion of words daily monthly and yearly in all assemblies the same matter and words reiterated in s●ead of pouring forth their hearts unto God according to their present needs and occasions was a setting of themselves in God's seat and taking the office of his Spirit/ which only knoweth the wants of the several assemblies according to their diverse occasions/ he runneth away from the matter/ as one unwilling to hear of this their Tautologia and counter●et babbling/ demanding whether every one should utter their own particular wants in the public assembly/ or should pray nothing but that every one feeleth the present want of in himself/ or should tell the Minister before hand what every one of their wants were▪ then how the Minister should remember al. Are these any thing but more cavils? can any of these follow upon the former doctrine? And let him look again/ whether he that is the mouth of the Congregation unto God in public prayer/ must not consider the present public occasions of that public assembly/ and thereafter frame his prayers/ all the people joining in heart to his words of petition or thanksgiving/ saying Amen to so much as he asketh according to the will of God and need of the time/ yea and if they have not feeling in such prayers/ they are unfeeling members: yet neither doth he intermeddle with private or secret wants/ neither need they tell him them he is sent for the public affairs of the Church/ to commend the several actions general and public/ unto God: And as they are divers in every assembly/ so must he be a man of wisdom to know/ see/ and consider them/ lest they all rashly step into the house of God to offer up the sacrify of fools/ and make a counterfeit babbling Eccle. 4. Yet the sin of this is nothing comparable to the do●ng your Priests cast forth by prattling over your English Portuis/ which the Lord will one day cast in your faces. As then in private prayer we are to lay forth our own wants and estate of our own soul/ which cannot be done by reading an other man's writings/ always singing one song/ customably repeating in superstition certain words/ our hearts never ripped up/ examined/ nor the diseases thereof laid open unto God/ seeking due cure: So the man that is the mouth of the whole assembly prayeth/ as the mouth of one body/ for all their open public present wants and occasions: Which occasions/ considering the persons and actions/ be divers and cannot be written for one assembly before hand/ much less for all assemblies in a whole kingdom/ neither by man nor Angel. See then the mockery of your service book/ and what Idolatry is committed by it/ to the abandoning true prayer according to the present wants and occasion. The next thing to be considered/ is/ about making of laws in the worship of God. Where he would persuade us that their whole liturgy containing all their public worship/ government/ offices and ordinances of their Church/ be but matters of order and conveniency. Then the compelling and teaching the public assembly to read over men's writings both as Canons and laws in the Church/ and publicly and privately to offer them up in stead of true prayer and holy invocation is a matter of comeliness and conveniency. In the mean time it must be a turning away of the whole order and ordinances of God: For what is the whole Testament of Christ but an order for every office/ person/ action in the Church/ if he will have it taxis and then must confess their liturgy an other order of public administration/ and so as I have said an other Gospel/ an other Testament/ a setting up an other worship. And hereupon I trust I may call all this an adding to the word of God/ yea I will go a little further/ an abolishing and disabling and dishonouring of the word itself and graces of his spirit. And whither all this smoke of the bottomless pit may not be reproved with these Scriptures/ not only Proverb. 30. verse 5.6. Deut. 4. verse. 32, but also Revel. 22. verse 18 19 let the godly ponder and search: and let the fearfulness of the threats deter all flesh from presuming to alter the ordinances/ laws and worship of the most high God. And that the very reading of an other man's writing for my own prayer/ or the prayer of the Church/ in stead of pouring forth our own hearts/ is a changing of the whole worship into the making men's writing an Idol/ which is by these places condemned as an accursed sin: let the most hard text (as he in carnal wonder exclaimeth) be looked into Revel. 22. verse 18.19. The words are plain: If any man put or add any thing unto these/ or if any man take away from these words/ he shallbe judged as followeth. Now if the adding an other whole Worship/ and suppressing of that God hath appointed/ be not an adding to these things written/ give sentence as you will answer. O (saith he) but it is said God will add unto such all the plagues written in this book/ and there is in this book mentioned the lake of fire: As though the lake of fire is not due for every sin/ and yet not every one that committeth sin to be condemned/ what sin is it that deserveth not the eternal wrath of God? yet not every one that sinneth given over to that judgement/ for ei●her it may be of ignorance/ or of negligence/ and washed away by repentance in the blood of Christ/ or it may be repent of and lest when we see it. Mr. Giffard hath read well the curses of the law and all the curses due for sin that seeth not how many curses the law and the Prophets pronounced upon sin/ to call the persons themselves to repentance: showing together the equity of God● law/ and yet withal the free mercy of God to all that truly repent their evil ways. All that receive the Beasts mark in their hand or forehead/ are threatened to be cast with the Beast and false Prophet into that lake/ yet i doubt not but many that have been so seduced into that sin/ shall by repentance be saved: Not that I encourage any to continue in such fearful estate/ to harden their hearts against the threatenings of GOD but that I would have Master Giffard to put difference between the curse laid to the sin/ and condemnation of the person sinning: And seeing he taketh that lake a particular severe threat to the Apostasy under ANTICHRIST/ I would he had the grace to consider how it lieth upon him/ whiles he speaketh out of the mouth of the Beast/ if he repent not to turn from his evil ways. Let it further be weighed how ignorantly he chargeth me to condemn all Churches/ for this finale examplifying of this Egyptian darkness/ Idolatrous worship/ and exalting men's writings into this defacing of God's word and true worship/ they neither being guilty of such a sacrilegious liturgy/ as this Egyptian Calf hatched at Rome/ neither are to be presently judged no Church for others sin/ till they join obstinacy to their transgression. But shift the matter as you will/ or rather as you can appear before God/ I will not make less the sin/ or the judgement due to sin/ for men's persons no not of whole Churches/ if they shall be guilty therein: My desire is by discovery of the sin/ to bring men to repentance/ and unto the awe of God in his worship: who are guilty besides yourselves in such sacrilege/ as to abrogate the Leitourgy of Christ/ and set up an other/ or to restrain Gods true worship and to give life to the image of the Beast/ it shilleth me not: let sin be sin/ and GOD righteous/ and them examine yourselves/ if they or you be clear I rejoice/ neither do I think or can charge them with such Idolatry as is here erected: I take it you will be found the slanderer of other Churches/ to hide your own filthiness. But saith Mr. Giffard those Scriptures are against the adding of human precepts and laws to be kept as par●●s of God's worship to ●ind the conscience to seek righteousness and the forgiveness of sins/ or the merit of eternal life in them/ or against such rules of government as God hath set to be perpetual. In which we must take your meaning to be this/ that you grant where any human precepts and laws be enforced as a part of GOD'S worship/ or as laws to bind the conscience/ or when righteousness is sought in them/ and forgiveness of sins by observing of them or merit by them/ or if they be against such rules of government as GOD hath let to be perpetual/ if the additions or constitutions be such as any of these than such laws and constitutions are against the perfection of the word of God/ against Christian liberty/ and in the chief things which concern God's worship against the ground and foundation of our faith and so a thing most detestable and accursed/ which our Saviour CHRIST refused justly to observe with the blind Pharis●is/ wherein you have granted as much as I ever affirmed: For is not your whole Leitournie being an other than CHRIST'S Testament your whole reading men's writings in place and in stead of laying forth your own present wants and occasions in prayer to God human constitutions/ and made a part of God's worship? at least such pretended worship as you think good enough for him? Weigh the matter unrightly: Again/ whither your whole Antichristian government/ offices/ Courts and ministery/ be not constitutions and ordinances against such rules of Christ's government as be perpetual and an innovating of his Testament/ examine/ which you shall soon perceive/ if you look but what Christ's perpetual ordinances/ offices/ officers and laws for the guiding/ ordering and governing of his CHURCH be/ prescribing every one their place/ duty and limits jointly and severally/ and not find your ministery registered there/ but a strange liturgy and worship borrowed from the Pope/ which came out of the bottomless pity/ confess your sacrilege in suppressing CHRIST'S whole ministery and ordinances/ and erecting an other for the perpetuity of his/ even to every nail and p●●n: The holy Ghost showeth that only to be his ministery/ till we be all a perfect body in him/ and his whole ministery and ordinances a kingdom that cannot be shaken. Hebre. 12. Ephes. 4. a commandment to be kept undefiled till the apearing of JESUS CHRIST: his Sceptre an everlasting Sceptre/ the Son as faithful in his house as Moses a servant in the Tabernacle/ who made all things according to the pattern: So that it is to be wondered Mr. Giffard should think any part of Christ's government should not be perpetual/ that was given by his Apostles the master builders and layers of the foundation/ whereby all actions should be tried to the world's end. May not Mr. Giffard as well call into question the perpetuity of the Testament/ as the laws and rules for the government of his Church. Now if your whole false Hierarchy/ Offices/ Officers/ laws/ Worship/ be plainly other than Christ's/ as in our other writings are proved/ and shame will inhibit you to deny/ how can you be so drunk with the cup of the Whore's fornication/ to think you have no constitutions/ laws or traditions/ which are a part of worship/ and against such rules of Christ's government as the Apostles have prescribed for the ordering of his house/ and the same ordained for all Churches till we become all a perfect body in him? But if Mr. Giffard will show himself so void of all conscience and truth to say all their traditional worship and Antichristian Offices and ordinances be neither part of their worship nor constitutions disannulling the ordinances of Christ/ yet will he confess I doubt not this kind of worship and government to be imposed as matters to bind the conscience/ being all the service of God they have/ seeing he would also have all that observe them not/ to be censured and excommunicate for this merchandise: it were a sore matter a man should be cut of from Christ and his Church/ given over to Satan/ and the judgement ratified in heaven against soul and body/ for a matter that binds not the conscience/ As though the soul and body (howsoever some things pertain to the one/ or is done by the one as proper work there of) were not both to be counted when the conscience shallbe opened to answer for all done in both/ or by either of both/ even whatsoever we have done in soul and body: and Calvine would but divide the soul and the body in Civil causes. But Master Giffard would go a note further ● namely/ that in the service of GOD in such causes as the transgression deserve excommunication/ to be no matter binding the conscience. But it may be Master Giffard doth suppose/ that except the constitutions ecclesiastical be such, as righteousness be commanded to be sought in the doing them, and forgiveness of sins and merit by them, all is well. Then/ besides the other hbuses granted/ he must be demanded whither those traditions of the Father's/ which our Saviour Christ and his Disciples refused to observe/ were imposed as meritorious/ whereunto we answer/ No: For in the superstitious washings of cups/ of beds/ with all such trincketts/ we see to be no such matter Mark 7. and Christ's words in saying/ they laid the commandments of God aside to set up their own traditions/ doth show wherein the sin was: namely/ to do and observe such things of vain glory/ superstition/ or custom as God had not enjoined them/ and to leave undone the laws and commandments of God/ which sin is your transgression at this day: Read therefore the 7. of Mark/ and 15. of Matthew more diligently. Further those superstitious traditions Gal, 4. and Colos. 2. the observing whereof were the denial of Christ/ were neither held meritorious/ nor justification sought by them/ many of them being jewish ceremonies/ sometimes as rudiments commanded of God/ now abolished and no further burden to be laid in such outward things/ no/ We read not that the law of God itself was either commanded/ or so observed/ as to seek righteousness by it. Now then to the matter: Mr. Giff. thinketh Christ and his Apostles did well in refusing to obey the traditions of the Fathers at the pharisees commandment, and so must confess it lawful and a duty of us to refuse to observe your jewish ceremonies and Romish superstitious traditions/ which are so many as even your whole liturgy and worship contain nothing else/ Gods laws and ordinances not only left undone but all that plead for them and seek to walk in them/ persecuted with deadly hatred. And how Mr. Giffard will prove that there is no adding or diminishing to or from the word of God/ by imposing and creating more laws than God hath made in his worship and government of his Church/ but such as be made part of the worship/ or bind the conscience/ or be meritorious/ or against such rules of his government as be perpetual though I take all your orders/ laws/ worship in this compass/ yet how you can pove this/ I know not/ for look again upon the scriptures Pro. 30.5.6. Deut. 4.2. and 12.32. and Gal. 3.15. Revel. 22.18.19. and you shall find/ that to add/ superordeine/ innovate or diminish or take any thing from the laws of God already prescribed for his worship/ were to abrogate his law/ to lay further burdens than he hath laid to make his law unperfect/ and set ourselves in his seat/ yea whatsoever we put to which he hath not commanded/ or whatsoever we inhibit that he hath commanded/ is here forbidden: For this saith the Lord/ Ye shall put nothing unto the word which I command you, neither shall you take aught therefrom that you may keep the precepts of the Lord your God which I command you Deut. 4.2. And that this was as well in the outward ordinances of the Temple as in the judgements/ is plain in the first verse. Again in the 12. Chap. 32. Whatsoever I command you, take heed you do it; Thou shalt put nothing thereto nor take any thing therefrom: and in the Proverbs. Every word of God is pure, put nothing unto his words lest he reprove the and thou be found a liar. Now the scripture speaking so absolutely and generally against all addition or detraction to or from his ordinances/ Mr. Giffard overshooteth himself of his bare word to contradict and limit so express commandements/ for these Scriptures (saith he) are against adding of human precepts and laws to be kept as parts of God's worship/ to bind the conscience to seek righteousness/ forgiveness of sin/ merit in them/ or against such rules of government as God hath set to be perpetual. This is true/ but this is not all/ for the law is general against all inventions/ traditions/ constitutions/ whatsoever God hath not commanded/ as the second Commandment doth also teach. Thou shalt not make to thyself etc. so that God hath left nothing to be laid upon his Church by commandment/ Which he hath not commanded: And therefore that place of the Apostle to the Gal. 3.15. must be better perused: If it be but a man's Testament when it is confirmed no man doth abrogate it or superordeine any thing to it: CHRIST'S Testament then being much more perfect/ his whole mind for the ordering of his house manifested therein/ it is wicked presumption to alter the ordinances thereof/ or to hold them unmeet or unsufficient for any age or estate. Well Mr. Giffard could now be content thus far to limit the power of the Church: namely/ to have her subject and obedient to his voice: but that he supposeth there may be laws ecclesiastical made/ of things in themselves indifferent: that where the scripture hath commanded such things to be used at our liberty for order/ for comeliness/ edification and glory of God/ as matters of place/ time/ and such circumstance. But he here mistaketh his text/ for the Lord commandeth by the Apostle in that place/ ●. Corint. 14. that those public business and exercises of the assemblies/ should be done in order/ in comeliness/ to edifying/ and doth not leave something to be commanded/ which the master builders hath not prescribed: For to bind those things by law which God hath not bound in his worship/ were to add new traditio●s to bring us into bondage of the creatures/ which the same Apostle denieth ever to be brought into bondage unto 1. Cor. 6.12. in his own person teaching us so to walk: the Lord see in his wisdom cause to leave them in our liberty/ knowing there would be no end of such particular laws/ especially if he had left it to man's wit to make and unmake laws therein: For the orders you speak of then/ meaning circumstances of time/ place/ kneeling/ sitting/ standing etc. there can be no further laws of them/ then the Apostle hath set/ and (as the Minister of Christ prescribed) that all be done to edifying in comlynies/ order/ etc. Of these to set particular laws/ were to break these general laws of God/ whereby he teacheth us the true use of them/ and leaveth them in the Church's liberty as need requireth to use them or not use them: Neither can all assemblies be bound in these things to the same in particular/ that being needful and decent in one/ that is not in an other. And in that you would have them no further commanded/ then they be needful/ convenient/ decent etc. you condescend that there can be no settled law in particular laid upon the Church in them: For to use them so far as they be convenient/ necessary/ and to edifijng is the law and commandment of God: and to use them further at any man's commandment/ were both a breach of God's law/ and making the creatures stumbling blocks/ Idols/ bondages/ and every way sinful. And when the Church commandeth them so far to be used as they are commanded of God/ the Church doth but ratify and see GOD'S law executed: so that you have lost yourself/ whiles you should have proved your bold affection: That the Church hath power to ordain laws/ for to create or make laws/ which you see the folly of/ being now driven to another shift: that in the particular things whereof GOD hath given general laws/ we may make settled laws/ and yet but for the time they be convenient: Whereas in deed GOD'S law is the same and nothing else. But because they be necessary in one place/ that be not in another/ at one time/ that be not at another/ of somme persons/ that be not to other/ there can be no law set in the particular one day for all assemblies in such things. Neither shall any disagreement be such amongst the several Church's/ as need any contention for them/ whiles every assembly do that which is to themselves most meet/ most convenient and necessary in such things/ for the present tyme. The Pastor and Elders were of small discretion if they might not have these things in their liberty: and even these doctrines and examples are in this point against yourself/ which you have alleged from other CHURCHES. But my purpose is not to contend about men's writings/ nor to be drawn into controversy with other Churches/ when I am to deal with your present sin/ for the avoiding whereof you thus rage. If your cause be good/ plead it by the Scriptures/ and I willbe so far from casting out darts against all CHURCHES/ as I will not deal with their estate/ till I be further occasioned/ the rather may I omit this labour/ for that you have alleged one place of scripture which you suppose will bear up all your matter: If it help you not/ I see not how you will defend your assertion. In the 15. of the Acts where it is said the Apostles/ Elders/ and brethren at jerusalem met about the question of Circumcision and other Ceremonies of Moses law/ which some would have burdened the Gentiles with/ we see there (saith he) that the Apostles themselves did decree some thing for the time/ which afterward were to be altered when the occasion was taken away/ namely/ that the Gentiles should abstain from blood/ and from strangled/ for avoiding offence to the weak jues. First let us see what the decree was/ and than it will appear how little it serveth Master Giffard his purpose: these be the words. Act. 15.28.29. It seemed good to the holy Ghost and to us, to lay no more burden upon you then that which is necessary of these things, to abstain from Idolothytes, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication; from which keeping yourselves, ye do well. For one of these/ which is (fornication) we have here no question/ it being by the moral law always forbidden: For the other Master Giffard would thus reason. The Apostles themselves did decree them for the time/ therefore the Church hath power to make and ordain laws in things of themselves indifferent/ about the worship of God and public exercises. For our answer/ we would have Master Giffard first learn/ that he/ in saying the Apostles themselves did this by the direction of the holy Ghost/ hath overthrown himself/ for these were the Master bvilder's/ appointed of God to be law makers for the whole liturgy and worship of Christ to all posterities/ even all the laws and ordinances of the new Testament/ confirmed by miracles from heaven/ delivered by their ministry unto us: It will not follow then/ if the APOSTLES had made and ordained some law here/ that therefore every Synoode or any Synod may impose laws and commandments by themselves ordained/ till they show they have that power given them the Apostles had/ and an other liturgy to be made/ which they shall never be able to do/ without a new CHRIST: We have a sure foundation already laid/ whereupon all Synods and Counsels must build/ and suffer their actions to be tried thereby/ they have not power to enjoin one title/ which is not by the word of GOD enjoined us. Further/ what did the Apostles here that they had not warrant for: neither would they lay any yoke or burden. And as for these things/ they do as much bind us now if there be like cause/ namely/ not in Idolothyts/ blood/ or that which is strangled to offend our weak brethren/ if the jews should be now again called/ neither to offend any in meat or drink for whom Christ hath died: Neither was there here any absolute law made of these things/ nor necessity for the present time/ further than it should be necessary for the respect set down/ for otherwise it had been to build again the things destroyed/ only they thus counseled and admonished the Gentiles to use their liberty in these things/ as they might give no offence to their weak brethren of the Iues/ the more to draw them on in the ways of CHRIST: for they do not enjoin it as a law/ but tell them they shall do well if they observe these things/ by no necessity enforced. But we do not now observe these things/ the occasions being removed. True/ therefore I trust you will grant/ that no man shall be further bound to any constitution in such things indifferent/ then there shall be cause/ neither need we public order to retract: so that you leave the matter to me/ that we can be no further bound in such things/ then by those rules of edifijng/ order/ comeliness/ occasion shall require/ so that we neither need nor can have settled laws herein: how much more bondage and burden is imposed under this Antichristian yoke/ the things being of themselves most loathsome and detestable Popery/ abrogating and making void all the true ordinances laws and worship of CHRIST/ and so enforced as hot persecution proceedeth against any that of conscience abstain from them let it be considered. Neither hath there ever been detracting this thirty years of any your abominations/ neither is held lawful for them that seeth them unlawful/ to forbear them/ without deadly hate/ to be followed to the death. Blessed be our GOD/ that hath delivered our souls out of such Egyptian servitude/ our lives are not dear unto us/ neither shall your reproach move us. Now concerning the last places of the Treatise/ where he is utterly mute in this/ that all which stand under another Hierarchy or spiritual Regiment than CHRIST'S/ be by outward profession no true Christians/ or under the promise of salvation/ also for the freedom we profess in holy obedience to all statutes and ordinances off GOD/ as he hath left untouched the matter/ for which he alleged the 7. to the Romans/ namely/ the outward professed bondage to a false Spiritual government/ so I having before largely expressed my mind in that point of doctrine/ and in such as then were about these things opposed/ refer any that desire the truth herein/ to ponder the reasons and proofs there set down/ not minding to repeat again/ or to be set awork in unfolding his troublesome and confuse cavils in abusing this place/ or to make further reply/ till I see more capable conceit in him of such principles of regeneration and sanctification/ of freedom and bondage/ yet for others direction/ one cavil or two shallbe briefly set in view. First where he supposing I had been in error (and he himself fast fettered in heresy and seeth it not) chargeth me to run as far on the other side/ as a wheel turned with contrary motions of the stream/ for saying I held the dear children of GOD might fall into any sin/ except the sin against the holy GHOST/ yet be restored by repentance/ GOD'S grace so far abounding/ always considered (as then I noted) that obstinacy in any sin/ make them to us the servants of sin whiles they so remained/ not speaking this to give leave or encouragement to presume in the least or first step of sin/ lest GOD leave them to themselves/ but to give them hope if they return that have so fallen: he excepteth generally against all presumptuous sin/ saying/ of frailty God's children may fall/ but of presumption he maketh great doubt/ for any so sinning to be renewed by repentance/ for it is spoken of the Maranatha to be pronounced in this life to none/ but that be in that sin against the holy Ghost: and here to fill his paper (as his common shift is/ when he can neither affirm nor deny) he putteth me to new questions: You must (saith he) declare how filthy incest is/ not sin against the holy GHOST/ nor if a man kill his Father or Mother or children/ nor witchcraft/ nor familiarity with Spirits/ is not your meaning that the regenerate man may of presumption and obstinacy commit these? If Master Giffard should thus understand the word may he is in the same fault to say the regenerate may sin of frailty: And I answer further/ he could understand the word may otherwise/ if (as in all his writings) he carried not this mind to take all in evil part/ to quarrel/ he could have understood it thus: that God suffereth of his elect to fall into such sin/ yet he is able to reduce them by repentance/ and hath made promise to receive them if they return/ and not have cavilled in this manner in such things/ the horror in the very naming of which sins shaketh the flesh and bones of the godly to hear or behold: so that his drift is but to cast in a little wormwood/ to deface the truth delivered: Therefore I will only prove the general doctrine before affirmed/ and for these particulars/ let him that taketh pleasure in raking in them/ being sins not once to be named amongst GOD'S children/ answer himself. And much better might he have put his question thus. Whither wilfully committing of sacrilege/ and presumptuous continuing to enchant in a false ministry/ with jannes' and jambres resisting the truth/ persecuting the light against their knowledge/ be not within the compass of that sin against the holy Ghost. That GOD'S elect after regeneration do fall into presumptuous sin/ and for a time persist in obstinate sin/ and may be restored by repentance/ I thus prove: Many of GOD'S children may be excommunicate/ and upon the repentance be received again/ as the incestuous person 1. Cor. 5. therefore do for a time remain in obstinate sin. Again every sin is to be prayed for/ but that one sin against the holy Ghost 1. john. 5.16. Therefore presumptuous sin is committed of GOD'S elect after regeneration. That all presumptuous sin is not sin against the holy GHOST/ we shall see by the description of that sin Hebr. 6. and 10. where there is dispyting of the Spirit/ accounting the blood of JESUS an unholy thing/ persecuting the light they have sometimes tasted of/ and such like notes/ which are degrees. further than presumption: for there is presumption of ignorance/ of rashness/ of hope of mercy/ and many times do the Prophets charge the people with rebellion against GOD: so that all presumption cannot have the curse maranatha pronounced upon it/ or the persons not to be prayed for. But sure I grant/ that presumption is near to that sin/ and there cannot be that high sinew without presumption. But now if all sin but sin of frailty were unpardonable/ your Clergy were in a woeful case/ that thus mainly resist the truth/ and persecute GOD'S servants. Neither is this doctrine any way contrary to that I delivered/ namely/ that the regenerate man cannot be said to stand in bondage to sin after regeneration/ and the servant of GOD at the same time by outward profession/ for none are in bondage to sin after their calling to the faith/ (to our judgement) but such as continue obstinate in their open known sin after due admonition: that such stand not by outward profession the servants off CHRIST but of sin/ and are to be excommunicate/ he willingly granteth: and hereupon marveleth how I should gather/ that obstinate gross sinners should not be excommunicate: which he might plainly perceive if he had eyes/ for if all the regenerate Bee in bondage to sin/ and so the servants of sin and of Satan/ how should they cast out an other for bondage out of their fellowship by the power of CHRIST? If Master Giffard say/ because the obstinate is in greater bondage than the other/ this proveth not that the bond can cast out the bond by the power of Christ. Again/ if all be in bondage/ then none can be holden without for being in bondage to sin: so that none should be excommunicate/ none without/ the world and the CHURCH/ light and darkness/ CHRIST and BELIALL should be mingled together. To all which he hath made no answer/ but demandeth certain questions/ and maketh such a formal conclusion/ as if all were in bondage unto sin. His questions I grant all affirmantively/ yet deny his consequence. Let him plainly prove therefore by evidence of SCRIPTURE/ that all that do sin are bondslaves of sin/ and when he hath so done/ I shall thereupon conclude him a flat Anabaptist in the chief ground of their profession. Very gladly therefore would he leave out the word (bondage)/ and falsely accuseth and sclandereth me/ in saying I hold that men can not outwardly appear sinners/ and stand the servants of CHRIST both at a time/ which is an open untruth: It is he/ that cannot put difference between sinning/ and bondage unto sin/ so that in one word all his questions are answered: If any be in bondage to sin/ he standeth a servant thereof. Now for the 7. to the Romans/ the APOSTLE setting forth the strife between the flesh and the Spirit/ speaketh sometimes in the person of the one (if I may so speak) and sometimes of the other/ sometimes of the new man or regenerate part/ or of himself so far as he is regenerate: sometimes of the old man/ which is not wholly slain/ but full of rebellion striveth for mastery. Now I must demand of him/ whether of these two have the pre-eminence/ dominion and rule in the regenerate/ the graces of the Spirit/ or the rebellions of the flesh? The same APOSTLE saith the SPIRIT/ and that part off the man renewed there with/ which we call the inner man: In the 8. Cap. he maketh it plain/ The law of the spirit of life in CHRIST hath freed me from the law of sin and of death. What is the law of the Spirit but the power/ rule/ and dominion of the Spirit of GOD in us? And what is the law of sin/ but the power of sin/ and bondage/ wherewith we were sometimes led headlong by Satan at his pleasure/ but are now freed/ that it no more doth reign or bear rule in us unto condemnation. Again/ whosoever are led by the Spirit of GOD/ are the sons of God/ and in the 7. Cap. 4. and 6. Cap. 16. Know you not that to whom you exhibit yourselves servants unto obedience, his servants you are to whom you give yourselves obedient? David feeling the great assaults of sin in his flesh/ and his inability to keep the Law of GOD/ earnestly prayeth unto the Lord Direct my steps in thy word (saith he) and let none iniquity have dominion, over me. After the strong man is cast out/ CHRIST beareth the rule over us and in us/ by his Spirit. So the scripture every where pronounceth us Saints by calling/ kings/ and priests/ a people set free/ not that we sin not in thought word and deed hourly and daily/ but that sin hath not dominion over us: If then we were in bondage to sin/ we are the servantes of sin and of death/ which GOD forbid. Where Master Giffard therefore reasoneth thus: the regeneration is imperfect/ therefore the freedom is imperfect/ therefore there is some bondage/ it is blasphemy: For first our freedom is perfect in CHRIST/ else his death is not sufficient. Then though our sanctification be not perfect/ yet is there no bondage/ but a rebellion of sin: which if it should reign/ we were not the servantes of CHRIST: And while it seemeth for a time to reign/ and we obstinately to cleave unto it/ we are judged (so far as men can judge) the servants of it/ and so given over from/ CHRIST unto Satan/ till the grace of the Spirit again to our judgement appear to bear rule. As for David in the whole year after he had committed adultery and murder/ he never pleaded for his sin when he was reproved not did no longer cleave unto it. So likewise though we fall and sin/ and be led away with sin/ yet are we not in bondage thereunto/ until we obstinately and wilfully give ourselves unto it from CHRIST/ which you find not in the 7. to the Roman. but resisting of sin/ a hatred of sin/ a will to do good/ a repentance and continual recovery of himself/ and flying unto Christ. So that your doctrine is false/ to say/ the Apostle stood in some spiritual bondage/ and my Argument still firm/ that these Ministers and people which stand in a professed bondage to a false government/ their prayers are an abomination unto the Lord/ till they repent and submit themselves unto CHRIST and his laws and ordinances. Which the Lord give them grace to do/ even speedily to depart out of the house of bondage/ and from all subjection of his Antichristian Hierarchy. Christ's unworthy witness for the truth of his Gospel JOHN GREENWOOD. FINIS.