¶ The confutation of the ●…st part of Frith's book, with disputation before whether 〈◊〉 be possible for any hereti●…●o know that himself ●…ne or not. And als● 〈◊〉 other/ whether it be worse to deny directly ●…re or less 〈◊〉 the faith put forth by Ioh●●…p●…eth clerks▪ M. CCCCC.XXXUI. The prologue. MOst gentle and good christian readers, where it is so, that it hath chanced me not a few times, to be in companies divers where I have hard, among all other, that most notable and wily heretic Fryth, not a little praised of some, for learning and much gentleness/ of some, for very singular and great patience/ and of some not only praised and commended, but also pitied and lamented, howbeit (as I perceive) not for his most infortunate chance spiritual but for his dew and just punishment corporal/ and that in such manner, as though he had been a man utterly cast away without cause: I therefore by the reason of this, compelled at length, so much to wonder, remembering withal, his judges to be (as I hard) no meaner people than pears of the ream, and that of both sorts/ was stricken with no small desire, if it were possible to see his book/ wherein I might perfitly perceive, the very hole cause of his worthy death. Not for any thing that I doubted, (as I perceived sum did more than that) whether his judgement were just or not/ but utterly because I would thoroughly understand the matter, for the which I though ever he was worthily condemned. And that to the intent I might be the more able to satisfy, such as I should chance to find, any thing deceived in him. And to be short, his book at length I did obtain. The which when I did read/ questyonles if the fastness of faith, had been no more, than the reddynesse of sufficient judgement I might well have said (as to many may) that I had met with it to soon▪ & in an evil hour: How be it the truth to say, after the first time, without fail the oftener I red it, the falser I found it. whereof at length I made so large report that here and there, now and then, I failed not of some, which would not stick to tell me, that I said therein much more than I could prove/ because they thought I did other falsely rehearse him or else mysunderstonde him. wherein I was divers times to this issuy driven, other to show forth the book itself, which I thought not best/ or to give place to an error, or else to promise the probation of that I said, in writing/ where Frith's words and mine should both together apere: and therefore because I would not show the book/ nor any thing give way in such a matter/ I had none other answer to make but alway with this promise/ little therein considering then, what things I found and perceived in it afterward/ which in especial were twain: one, that who so ever promiseth to prove such a falsehood and do it not in deed, without question doth but therein confirm and uphold it, and nothing else. The other was/ what vivacite of wit, copy of learning and eloquence, is (all most of necessity) requesyte, to convince the tortuous and crooked wiliness of an heretic. And when I perceived a great inconueniens of the tone side. And again utterly no remedy, of the t'other, That is to wit, I saw what danger mine own promise had bound me unto if I should not perform it. And of the other part/ when I considered, how far I was from those things that I should aptly perform it withal/ good christian readers, it is not hard to perceive whether my mind were therewith asstonyed or not, being brought into such a strait, where appeared out no passage/ yet thither conveyed (I was sure) without fault. But then my cogitation, as who say, sore were and beaten herewith, ran straight to the very thing itself, which first set it this a work: that is to wit, the very bodily presence of our most glorious saviour cryst in the holy sacrament. wherein doubtless is very truth. The which truth, because it might (as full sure it was, to show the only strength of itself sometime it would) be with out the excellency of wit, the copy of learning, and the beauty of eloquence. Even therefore did I set upon the accomplishment of my promise, without any of them all three/ as ye shall well perceive hereafter: wherein I most heartily desire you to have me excused/ not for my sake, but for the furtherance of the glorious thing itself, for the love whereof I have not shrunk thus to show my rewdenesse & little learning to all men. Finis. ¶ The faults escaped in the printing. Chapi. Lefe. side. lines. Faults Amendent In the ix. i. i. xxi. is in is in In the xi two. two. i. There He. There In the xiii i. two. v. denied denieth And in the xiii. failed faileth In the. xvi· i. two. xiii. put away in. In the twenty iii. i. ix. to note noted And in the xi. noted note And in the viii. so large. thus large. In the xxi vi. two. two. suspicions. suspicious In the xxiii. v. i. i none one And in the vi. i. ix. doth none. is none. In the xxx iii. ij. xiii. it is said. is it said ¶ The first chapter. Catholicus. Hark I say cuntreyman, a word with the. Hereticus. Speke ye to me sir? Catholicus. what question is that, where there is no more but thou & I? Here. what would ye with me? Catho. Come hither & thou shalt here. Hereti. what is the matter? Ca Shall I tell thee? He. That is your promise. Ca Now truly, when I first see the coming this way alone/ thou madest me therewith very glad He. why so? Ca Doubtless because I have been a great while, very desirous to talk with the. And yet could I never find the time & place: but (by the reason of company/ or one thing or other) there was alway some occasion to interrupt or let, that I did purpose. Therefore now, while it hath chanced us thus (fortunately as I hope) to meet here in this fair & quiet place: where there be no manner of any present impediments/ but that we may say/ thou to me/ & I to thee/ what so ever shall like us best. I shall for my part therefore (if thou wilt hearken well to me) show the many things, perchance not a little beyond thine expectation. He. Sir, of such, would I be glad to here: but yet I marvel greatly, that ye should be so desirous, to talk with me. For I suppose ye know me not. Ca yes well enough, by sight and here say. He. why, what have ye heard of me? Ca In very deed I will not long hide it from the. Howbeit, first thou knowest right well, that deliberation oft times, giveth a great occasion of wisdom: for that thing, which a man doth sometime judge very well & meet to be done at the first: by further leisure and deliberation taken therein, he perceiveth at length to be clean contrary: the which I do now find by experience. He. How so? Ca I shall tell yt. when I was first moved to speak and common with thee (letted hitherto as I have showed that) I died then intend to have asked the a certain question/ the which I perceive now (by the reason of a more deliberate consideration, conceived sins in the mean space) had been but very superfluous and vain. He. why so? Ca what availeth it to ask a question of him that can not solve it? Here. Am not I able to assoil it? Ca No truly. Here. yet ye can not tell. Ca yes very well. He. why, what was the question? Ca I have told the a cause why, it were but void to tell the. And therefore it should but consume the time, & nothing else. He. yet I pray you/ sins ye have gone so far withal, let me here it, & it were but for my fantasy. Ca I wis it is, as who say but a void draft. How be it, seeing thou wilt needs have it, I will not stick with the for more than that. And therefore the question was in deed, none other but this. I had thougth then, to have asked thee/ whether thou be an heretic or not. He. I pray you say troth. Ca Then must I say the same again. He. I promise you sir, it had been a pretty question. Nevertheless, was this it/ which ye think, that I can not solve? Catho. even the very same. He. Then who can solve it, if I can not? specially when it toucheth no man else, but me only. Ca yet who so ever can, sure it is, that thou canst not. He. why so? Ca Because there is no heretic that can tell, whether he be one or not. ¶ The second chapter. Hereticus. AHa, now I perceive we have somewhat to do, ere we part. But first, what should move you, to have any such opinion/ or to think that no heretic can tell, whether he be one or not. Ca I have no such opinion/ nor I do not so think neither. Here. why then did ye say so? Ca Not because of any opinion that I have therein/ nor yet by the reason of so thinking/ but because I do surely know it/ & over that, by cause thou musest at it so much/ I will say to the thus much more, that there is none of them, the doth, or can so much as believe or think that himself is one. He. what, can no heretic so much as think that he is one? Ca No doubtless, for that is my saying. He. It is to far against reason. Ca Not one whit. He. yes with out fail/ for any man may think what so ever he will. Ca Thou art therein much deceived. For all though it be all one, to think, & to believe: yet is it two things▪ to think, & to ymagion. Thou mayst ymagyon all steeples to have sprung out of the ground, as trees do: and also every thing to be otherwise, than thou knowest it is, if thou list. But yet thou canst not so think or believe, all though thou wouldest. For thou canst never (if thou mark it well) believe or think any thing, again thine own knowledge. But for all that, thou mayest so ymagyen always at thy pleasure. where of it appeareth plain, that imagination is one/ and thinking or believing is an other. Therefore though an heretic may ymagyen himself to be one/ yet (as I said) he can never for all that, so believe or think: much less then, is he able to know it: and who therefore would ask him the question? ¶ The iii chapter. Hereticus. YEt may he as soon believe, and also know that, as I can believe you, that he can not/ except ye show me some good reason why. Ca wilt thou admit it, if I do? Here. Or else convince me thereby. Ca what by reason, when thou wilt not allow it? Here. ye, wherefore not. Ca which way? He. Marry how should one be better convinced/ by the reason which he will not admit/ then to be therefore shake of/ and talked no more withal? As I, for my part, would be loath to be so served: specially in such matters, as me think ye attempt for to treat of. whereof in deed, I have no small desire to here. Therefore as ye shall not find me satiable without reason: so ye shall not find me to refuse it, when it is purposed on to me. Ca Because thou speakest so reasonably, thou shalt not have me require any other wise. Therefore to thou purpose/ thou must needs grant this, that there is no man an heretic/ but because he believeth in some part of the faith amiss. He. That is troth. Ca Therefore if he could believe, that he were an heretic/ than might he believe that thing, which he doth not believe: and that both at ones/ which were impossible: for it is not possible for a man/ to believe any thing to be even then any other wise, than he doth believe it: As by the way of ensample. Suppose one so wicked, which doth believe our saviour christ to be but a man only, & not also very god to: as divers heretics did in time past. He. what of thee? Ca Then if he that so believeth, could believe that he were therein an heretic/ he should then believe and think/ that he did believe therein amiss. wherefore if he did think/ that he believeth amiss/ in that he doth believe our saviour to be but a man only/ & not also god himself: plain it is, that he doth believe him to be not only a man but also very god to when he doth think himself to believe amiss, when he believeth the contrary: & so should he believe and not believe, all one thing both together. which (as I said) is impossible. wherefore it must needs follow, that an heretic can never believe or think that himself is one. He. Sir I do now, me think perceive it very well. For if I be not deceived it is even like, as if ye did believe and think the great turk to be now here in england. It were not possible for you, to believe, that ye believe therein amiss/ when your believe is utterly, that it is so: for when ye believe that he is in england. if ye could believe, that ye believed therein amiss/ then might ye believe, that he were not in england, when ye believe him to be in it: & so should ye believe, & not believe one thing (as ye said before) both at ones, which I know, were again all reason & troth. Ca Doubtless thou speakest very well to the purpose/ and that per chance, would yet more plainly appear by this. Believe is a thing which can never be wittingly deceived. For so soon as thou dost think, that thou believest in any thing amiss: forthwith in the same instant, thy believe is clean altered and changed, and is not the same, that it was before. Therefore because heresy, is no nother but in some part of the faith, a miss believe. when this question is asked, whether an heretic can believe or think, that himself is one/ it is no more to say, but whether he can believe or think that he believeth amiss. But then, for so much as no man is able, what so ever he doth believe, to think himself therein, to believe amiss: it must needs follow, that no heretic can believe or think, that he believeth amiss. And therefore he can never believe or think, that he is an heretic. ¶ The four chapter. Hereticus. Sir far is this now, from the need of any more, probation. Ca ye but yet thou seest not all. He. why so? Ca if thou mark it well, this conclusion doth take away no small wonder from many men. He. what is that I pray you. Ca Truly, what should be the cause of the rare & seldom amendment of heretics: whereof partly hath sprung this common opinion, that heresy, frenzy, and jealousy, be three diseases incurable/ not because they be all utterly so in ded but because, they be so seldom seen, to be thoroughly cured & heeled again. And as thou haste now hard, of heresy, what wonder is it all though it be seldom or never forsaken & amended: when it is, to every heretic (as to one in a continual phrenesye) utterly unknown, and also inopinable, that himself is any thing therewith infected: for who can expel & put from him, the which he can not believe, that ever came near him/ who can desire, of any infirmity to be heeled, wherewith he can not think, that ever he was diseased? or who can be willing for to amend, wherein he can not, so much as think, that ever he did offend? specially, when we may daily see the amendemet of evils, very seldom or never brought to pass in some, when they both believe & know themself infected with them: yet much more easier it is (be it never so hard) to leave and amend that is known or thought amiss. Then it is (be it never so light) to overcome and forsake, that is clean hid & incredible: who therefore or what, can purge cure and hele, this insensible, imperceptible incredible (and therefore the more perilous pestilent & audible) sickness, but only the gentle sweat and mighty mercy of him which justifieth the caitiff? Pro. 27 But how should that most gracyoust medicine be obtained, if it be not desired? And how can it be desired, when the cause why, (as thou haste herd) neither is, nor can be perceived? By this, thou mayst some part see, of the lamentable state of an heretic, which of all men, is in most danger, & fardyst from all good help and succour. ¶ The .v. chapter. Hereticus. Sir, ye say very truth, & that I perceive now right well. Catholi. yet thou seest not all the worst of him. He. That were marvel, Ca what wilt thou say, if it be he, whom the prophet doth mean. where he saith, Psal 〈…〉 The foolish man said in his heart, there is no god. That is to say, the foolish man, conceived such things in his heart, whereof it must needs follow, that there is no god. He. There is no heretic, that so doth. Ca yes, that is there. He. why, what manner of heretic is that? Ca reckon which thou wilt, thou canst not choose amiss. He. No? then by that reason, it is every one of them. Ca Now in good faith, thou hyttest even the very mark. Here. what, doth every heretic deny god him self? Ca In very deed it is non other wise but even so. He. Sir never tell me that tale any more, for surely I will never believe it. Ca what soft and fair, thou hast promised, to follow reason/ & now thou beginnest to flee from it, ere thou come at it. He. Sir there is no reason that can prove this. Ca yes yes, in so much, that the probation thereof is soon made (ye & soberly hard) very easy also to be understand. He. when I here it, I will tell you more. Ca first, thou shalt not deny this/ but all those deny god/ which denieth christ. He. In deed that I will grant. Ca And all heretics denieth christ. wherefore it must needs follow that all heretics denieth god: except thou wilt say, that christ is not god. He. Marry sir we are much the near, for this probation. Ca what aileth it? Here. why? how prove you, that all heretics denieth christ. Ca All those denieth christ: which denieth all his hole faith. He. That is a plain matter. Ca And all heretics denieth, all his hole faith: wherefore all heretics denieth christ. He. I have hard in my days many probations, but yet never h●rd I any such. Ca wherefore? He. wherefore ꝙ a? Ca ye wherefore? He, Marry we be now, even as nigh, as we were at the first. Ca And somewhat near to, if thou look, well upon it. He. Not one whit, for who can prove, that all heretics, denieth all the hole faith? Ca That can I, soon do. He. ye may chance to be therein beguiled. Ca No no: for it is easy enough. He. By assay, we shall know. Ca I will not assay, but I will do it in deed. And therefore mark it well: all those denieth all the hole faith, which denieth any one part of it: but every heretic denieth at lest one part of it, or else he could be no heretic. wherefore every heretic, denieth all the hole faith. He. Sir I pray you, go ye not about to mock me? Ca I would not have thee, take me, to be such a one. He. Then will I be plain with you. I never heard man speak, so far without reason. For when it is impossible, to make any thing certain, by that which is incertain/ ye would prove, that all heretics denieth almighty god, by the reason they deny christ. when that is as incertain, and as much needeth probation, as doth the other And then furthermore, to stay the matter withal, ye would prove again, that all heretics denieth christ, by this/ that each of them denieth the hole faith: when that is more uncertain, and more needeth probation (if more may be) than all that went before: finally to knit up all together, ye would prove, that all heretics denieth all the hole faith, by the reason, that each of them denieth some part of it. when that is not incertain, but so sure, and plain false, that it can need no manner of probation. Ca And thinkest thou so? He. Nay who can think otherwise? for who will believe that he, which denieth but a part of the faith, doth therefore deny all together? Ca Thou peradventure shalt anon, believe so thyself, for all this He. Never speak of that. Ca well, first when I said, that all those denieth almighty god, which denieth christ because he is very god himself: said I amiss therein? He. No marry sir, all that is truth. Ca And when I said, that all those denieth christ, which denieth all his faith: said I any thing amiss in that? He. Nother. Ca Also when I said that all those, denieth all the hole faith, which denieth any part of it: said I amiss therein? He. Therein ꝙ a? what can be said amiss, if that be not it? Ca yet, if I can prove that so true, that it shall need no further probation: is not all well, or have I said any manner of thing herein amiss then? He. Sir if ye can surely prove, that who so ever denieth any part of the faith, doth deny all together, ye shall then not only make all well in deed, but ye shall also do therein, that I will never believe, till I here it. Ca yet thou wilt grant me this I am sure, that who so ever denieth christ, denieth all the hole faith. He. All that I know very well. Ca Therefore if I can also prove, that who so ever denieth any part of the faith, denieth christ himself, have I not then clearly performed, as much as I have promised, when it must follow thereof, that who so ever doth, denieth all together? He. Sir fain would I once here it, if it would be, but it is long me think a coming forward. Catho. then first to begin withal, thou shalt not deny, but every part of Christ's faith is true. He. There is no doubt of that, unless I should say that some part of it were false. And than were it none of his faith. Ca Thou speakest very well: and therefore, if every article of his faith be true (as in deed it must needs be) of whom is the same truth? Here. Of whom should it be, but of him, whose faith it is? Ca Then it is the truth of christ. He. what else? Ca Take good heed what thou sayest. He. wherefore? Ca Perchaunec if thou grant that, thou wottest full little what will follow. Here. what so ever follow, I will alway grant this, that the truth of the faith, is the truth of christ. For if there were any article, wherein the truth of christ were not. I am sure, it could be no part of his faith. Ca Doubtless, it is very well taken: wherefore if that truth, which is in every singular article of the faith, be the very truth of christ (as there is no fail, but it is in deed/ or else were they utterly no parts of his faith, as thou dost full truly confess thyself) thou shalt be therefore well answered, it must clearly follow, that christ is also, in every article of his faith. For christ and his truth, be not two things, as other men be, and their truth, which are oft times without it: some men may, (sometime at least) be said to be true. But no man may (at any time) be said to be truth: which is proper to christ: for justly may he, and no man else, be called truth: for so doth he call himself: job. 1 and doubtless the cause why? is this, that he and it, is all one: for as thou consyderst no christ, when thou consyderst truth without him: even so thou consyderst no christ nother, when thou considerst him, without truth: for without truth, what were he but no christ in deed. Therefore what so ever things cleave so together, that they can not be separate, neither in deed, nor yet in consideration, without fail again all reason it were to say, that they be divers. But surely even such is christ, and his truth. wherefore it were wickedness, to think, that they be not both one. This inevitable conclusion well marked, and borne in mind, shall cause the clearly to perceive those things, which must needs follow thereof. Now therefore while it is so, that the truth of christ, is in every article of his faith, & he & his truth is both one: it can not be avoided, but also he, which is his troth, is in every one of them: for if he be not in them, them (because his truth & he is all one) his truth is not in them: if his truath be not in them, then they be not true if they be not true/ then, they be no articles of his faith. But because all this is false: now again to the true part: if they be articles of his faith/ then doubtless his truth is in them: if his truth be in them then without question so is he: except thou wilt make him, without his truth, as it must needs follow, if he be not where it is, the which were impossible. Now is it therefore, clearly come to light, that christ is in every article of his faith. whereof (as thou mayest perceive thyself) it can not be avoided, but who so ever denieth, any one of them (as every heretic doth, at the ) he doth also deny him in the same. And therefore what part of the faith leaveth he undenyed, which denieth him, in whom there is all contained? A more larger declaration hereof, thou shalt have a none. Take this therefore in good worth their whiles. ¶ The vi chapter. Hereticus. NAy nay sir, I pass not upon the greatly, for me think this all ready, were wonders well, if it were not for one thing. Ca I pray the what is that? He. if there were nothing to be said to the contrary. Ca ye, countryman, art thou such a one? Now a good fellyshyp, say what thou canst, all though it be, nothing to the purpose. He. A sir there ye would have it. Howbeit ye shall not so find it. Ca Go to than let me see, whether I shall or not. He. Sir where ye say (as I now perceive it is in deed) that christ is in every article of his faith, because that his truth which is himself, is in each of them. where upon ye conclude, that every heretic which denieth some part of it at least, denieth therein christ himself, and all the hole faith to, by the reason that it is all, contained in him. How therefore I pray you, may this agree withal, (which is not unknown) that all heretics, doth both hold and confess, many articles of the faith, as earnestly, & as fastly as any men can/ saying, and also thinking, themself as verily to believe them, as any men do? Ca Is this all the matter? He. Sir take this till more come. Ca I marvel greatly, that thou wilt have any manner of respect, to their saying or thinking other, again so manifest and invincible reason, as I have showed ye. Nevertheless, be judge now thyself: do they, other say or think, themself any surer of the trauthe, in any point, than they do in the very same, where in they do directly err in deed. How surely do they think that they be not therein deceived? shall we, think so to because of that? Those which did murder and slay th'apostles (as our saviour himself doth testify) thought that they did there in, ●oh. 16. great service to god: but yet for all their thinking, was it as they thought? or did their thinking excuse their fault, because they thought it was none? The jews did also think, that they slew not the lord of glory, when they slew christ, Cor. 2 as saint Paul doth witness/ if they had known him (he saith) the lord of glory, they would never have crucified. Therefore they did think, it was not he: but was their thinking deceived or not? or did they not put the son of god to death, because they did, otherwise think? And even so in like manner, what speakest thou to me, of an heretics thinking? when (as I proved one to the before) it is impossible for him, to think that thing, which were of all things, most expedient for him to think/ that is to say, that himself is an heretic? yet, is he none, by cause of that? what thing might he think, more truly/ and yet he is not able so to do? Therefore let never his thinking, what so ever it be, stand in the way, between the and inevitable reason. ¶ The vii chap. Hereti. Sir, I will now, tell you another thing. Ca Let us have it, if it be worth the hearing. He. without fail, there be many taken for heretics/ and yet, be they none for all that. Ca what is this to the purpose when I speak of none such for I speak of them that be heretics in deed. And look therefore how their thinking, doth fail them in those articles, which they deny/ so doth it fail them to in those, which they seem to grant. He. Nay sir none of that, for in those articles, which they deny/ they think they have the truth, and yet they be deceived. But in those articles, which they hold and grant (as the articles of the creed) they think they have the truth, & even so they have in deed, and be not deceived: therefore they be not deceived, both the ways. Ca Thou art thereni deceived, at least one way. For how can they have the troth of those articles, which they think themself to confess and believe/ when they do utterly refuse, and deny the very same truth, in those other articles, which they believe not. In those articles which they grant, thou sayest they have the truth, because they think so (which doth not follow) And in those articles, which they deny/ thou art sure they have it not, because they do not believe them. Therefore by this reason, they have the truth, and have it not, which can not be: for if they have it, they have it/ if they have it not, they have it not. But to have it & not have it, both together, is impossible: wherefore as I said, thou art herein deceived. He. No no sir, for a man may have the truth in one thing, all though he lack it in an other, well enough: as it is daily seen. Ca A now I perceive thou art far from the thing in deed. For thou thinkest, that the truth of those articles, which they deny, is an other and not the very same truth, that is in them, which they grant. He. why how else? Cat. Laugh, therefore I say: if thou knewest, what property, the truth of the faith were of: thou wouldest not ask the question. He. why, what property is that? Ca In very deed to be no more in the hole faith, then in the least part of it. Nor no less in the least part, then in all together: nor none other in any part, then in every other. And that is surely well proved after this manner: what so ever is more than truth, is utterly no truth: and what so ever is less than truth/ doubtless is no truth. Also what so ever is another then truth, without fail is no truth neither. Therefore as touching the first. if the truth of the hole faith, were any more, than the truth of the part of it: them were it more than truth (for the truth of the least part is truth) But truth to be more than truth/ every man knoweth, is impossible. wherefore the truth of the hole faith, can be no more, than the truth of the least part of it. Again for the second by the same reason/ if the truth of the least part, were any less, then the truth of the hole faith, than were it less than truth (for the truth of the hole is truth) but truth to be less than truth, plain it is, can never be. Therefore the truth of the lest part of the faith, can be no less, than the truth of all the hole. thirdly, if the truth of any one part, were not the very same, but another, than the trauthe of any other part of it: then were it another than truth (for the truth of each part is truth) but truth to be any other than truth, can never be possible. wherefore there is no nother truth, in any one part of the faith, than there is in each other. ¶ The viii chap. Hereti. Sir your reasons me think can not hold. Ca The cause why, would I fain hear. He. That shall ye soon do, & for example: the resurrection of christ, is one part of the faith: and the ascension is an other. Ca All that is true. He. Then if the very same truth, no more nor less, nor none other: were in the tone, that is in thou other/ it must needs follow, that the resurrection and the ascension were both one: as it may this way, more plainly appear: ye will not deny, but when I say, that christ rose from death to life, I say truth? Ca what else? He. And when ye say, that he ascended, you say also the truth like wise. Ca There is no doubt of that. He. Then if these be not to distinct trauthes, but are all one, so that the one is none other, but even the very same that is the t'other: then say you the very same that I do. Ca what of that? He. Therefore if you, when ye say that christ ascended, say the very same that I do, when I say, that he rose from death to life: it can not be avoided, but that his resurrection and his ascension is all one. Ca Hast thou said? He. ye sir for this tyme. Ca Then very well concluded. As who say, because the truth of them, must needs be all one, the things also where in the same truth is, must needs be so to: when it is ever the contrary: for if thou wilt have the truth of each article to differ, as the articles doth themselves, in whom it is. Thou shalt make never a one of them true. He. yet that would I hear. Ca with a good will. If the truth of the resurrection, and the truth of the ascension, were not all one: it could not be annoyed/ but the one truth must needs differ from the other. And then, if the one differ from the other/ because that same other is truth, the one must needs differ from truth. And (as I told the before) what so ever differth from truth/ all men knoweth is impossible to be truth. Therefore by this reason, the one article is without truth. And also by the same reason, likewise the t'other, of the contrary part/ and so altogether. Moreover again this way, if they were two trauthes/ there is no doubt, but the one, were not the same, that the other is. Then if the one, were not the same that the other is/ because the other is truth: the one were not the same that is truth. And what so ever is not the same, that is truth, without fail, can be no trauthe. Therefore if they be twain, the one is no truth nor the other nother. Beside all this: the truth of every article, is (as I said) the truth of christ/ and byeause christ and his truth is all one, if there be not the very same truth, in one article, that is in another, it must needs follow, that there is not the same christ in one article, that is in another/ but in every article a diverse christ, so that there be so many Christ's, as there be articles: wherefore, because the falsehood of these conclusions, is not only to audible to be heard, but also to plain to be doubted in. The truth therefore, of the resurrection, must needs be (as it is in deed) the very same, all one, and none other, but even the very truth of the ascension. And so it is likewise to be said, and understand, of each article from one to another, through all the hole faith. Therefore when the trauthe (as I have plainly showed thee) is no more in the hole faith, then in the part of it/ nor no less, in the least part, then in all the hole together: nor none other, in one part, then in any of the other. To this it must needs come, that the hole truth, of the hole faith, is in each and every singular part of it/ no more, no less, none other, but without any difference, even the very same. wherefore because it is so, and can in deed, none other wise be: this is thereof a conclusion inevitable/ that who so ever denieth any article of the faith (as every heretic doth one or other at least) he denieth utterly the hole truth of all together: for who so ever denieth a part of that, which hath no parts, denieth in deed all the hole, because the very same, which seemeth a part, is all the hole And such is the truth of the faith which (all though it be nothing so) yet seemeth to have parts, & all by the reason of the diversity of things, wherein it is: that is to say, by the reason that the faith is divided into divers distyncte articles, wherein the truth of it is. And that is therefore the cause why it is thought, (of such as understand it not) that the truth itself (which is indivisible) is also divided and in parts distributed among them like wise, the which is utterly falls. Therefore firmly still abideth my saying, that all heretics are deceived, not only in those articles which they deny, but also in those which they grant and confess, when it is surely so/ that they deny clean contrary and against their own thinking, the very truth of all together. ¶ The ix chap Hereti. Sir here have ye now declared a fair plain distinction, between th'articles of the faith, & the truth that is in them. wherefore all though an heretic deny all the hole truth of the faith, which ye say, is is every article of it: yet he doth not deny (as every man knoweth) all those articles, wherein it is. Ca I pray the what skill that? when he doth once deny and take away, the truth of them all, without the which, what are they? And yet if thou look, somewhat more narrowly upon it/ thou shalt find, that he denieth all them to, like as he denieth all their truth. He. who can think that? Ca The same question thou mightest ask, of many true things more, as well as of this. He. why, how is it possible, for any man to believe, that when an heretic, doth both say and think, that christ rose from death to life: he doth deny that article, & so of other like wise? Ca Thou dost all way swim above, and never dive to the bottum. wherefore thou seest not what there is. For I pray thee, what other thing is it, for to say of any article, that it is not true, then to say, there is no such thing? Therefore when all the articles of the faith doth so cleave to their truth, that the one can not be, without the other: and also when the hole truth of them all, is in every one of them singularly/ it must needs follow, that when he denieth any one of them, he denieth them all/ because in that one he denieth all their truth. with out the which▪ it is not possible, that any one of them should be. He. yet all men knoweth, he will say, and utterly so think, that they be all true: that part only except wherein he doth not believe. Ca I marvel greatly, that thou wilt yet (as I told that before) any thing stick, upon his saying, or thinking other? when he will alway say, that he is as truly in the faith as any other man is, & utterly no heretic at all/ nor no man can make him, so much as think the contrary: yet every man knoweth, he is deceived clearly. Therefore never pass upon the saying, or thinking other, of such a one. He. In deed sir no more I do not, so much as I do, upon other men's, which be no heretics. For also they, do utterly think, that no heretic doth deny the hole faith/ nor yet any more of it, but even those points, wherein he doth directly err, & differ from other faithful people: that is to say, they think, he erreth in no more, but in those parts only, wherein he ought to be condemned, for an heretic. Ca who be they that so think? any other but such, as are not able to discern the thing? or any other but such as judgeth more, as who say, by guess, then by any order of reason, whereof little skill they can? far it is asunder, to judge things, as they seem. And to judge them, as they be in deed, which few in respect can do/ specially when they be somewhat dark as this is. Therefore what is the judgement or opyniyn of such, to be pondered in this case? ¶ The ten chap. Hereticus. Sir will ye believe me? Ca what is the matter? He. Now in good faith, it will not sink in my heed, for all this/ that an heretic doth deny those articles, which he doth openly grant and confess, and more over, utterly believe and think therein as he sayeth to, Ca what not yet? He. No truly. Ca Then I suppose thy wit be not so good, as I took it for. He. if it be not, I must take it in good worth. I will make it no better than it is. Ca well, I conjecture what standeth in thy light, all this while. He. Sir than I would it were taken away. Ca Thou shalt see me go near it by & by. Thou dost not know (I perceive) that a thing is denied, two manner of ways, directly, and indyrectely: that is to say by mean, and imedyately/ by the reason whereof, a thing may seem sometime, to be granted, when it is denied/ as it doth now in this case. For by the way of ensample. One Fotyne an heretic in time past, seemed to confess christ directly, when he did so say and none other wise think. But yet he did utterly deny the same indyrectely, when he died both say and think that he was not very good for none other is christ, but one person, god and man joined together. Therefore if he were not god, in very deed he were not christ. wherefore when he denied him directly to be god/ he died utterly deny him indyrectely, to be christ: that is to say, he died therein deny him to be christ, by mean/ the which is none other, but so to say, or speak such things of him. whereof it must needs follow, that he can not be christ. wherefore, if christ be denied, whether it be directly, or indyrectely, it is no matter, when all cometh to one, before him, that can plainly perceive, and see it/ & that is alway god at lest, all though there were no man else, that could, as the most part in deed can not. Therefore as the Fotyns denied christ to be very god. So the Manichees denied him to be very man. wherein they both, denied him to be very christ, all though not directly: that is to say, all though they both said and thought the contrary. But what for that/ when of each, of their sayings, no christ must needs follow? For like as he is not christ, if he be not very god/ so he is not christ neither, if he be not very man. when christ is (as I said) none other, but one singular parson, of both god and man joined together. wherefore, they denied in deed, the very same thing, which they seemed both to grant. And did not those, which denied christ to be a very man, deny therein, his very nativity, deny therein, his very resurrection, deny therein, his very ascension? what if they did not think it? what is all that, to the purpose: which of those articles, could be true, if christ were not a very man? for he that denieth one article, all though with his word, and also thought, he grant an other/ yet in very deed for all that, he doth deny them both together, the tone directly, and the t'other indyrectely, which maketh no difference in the conclusion. For as sure is the tone as the t'other▪ for all though he say, and more over so think, the tone to be true (as it is in deed) yet when the truth of the same, is also in the t'other, which he directly denieth. Clere it is, that he denieth the same to, which he seemeth and also weeneth himself to grant: when he denieth the very truth of it in the t'other. For the thing can never abide, where the truth of it is denied. Therefore (as thou mayst now, with half an eye perceive (it can not follow/ that an heretic hath in deed, any part of the faith: other because he doth directly confess and think, very many articles thereof to be true, (for he doth no less both say and think of that point, wherein he doth err) nor yet because the most part of true christian people, doth not think him to err, in any more than he doth directly deny. For farther than that, little do they perceive, or consider. what must needs follow, they seldom look after/ and specially in such things. beyond the senses, few of them doth reach: any secrets of nature, they are scant able to touch. what place therefore, can their judgement have, in things that be supernatural? wherefore, what so ever he, or they, do say or herein think/ or how so ever to any of them both, it doth seem and appear/ take this nevertheless, for a sure conclusion/ that every heretic (all though it be a thing to himself incredible) is, for all that, no less than out of the hole faith of christ: that is to say, out of it, at lest in part, before all men/ and out of it altogether, at , before almighty god: before whom, every thing doth appear, not as it seemeth, but as it is utterly in deed. ¶ The xi chap. Hereti. Sir will ye now see, what of all this must needs follow? Ca Very gladly. He. There can no more of the faith be denied, but all together. Ca Surely that is a true tale. He. And ye say that he, which denieth directly, but one article, doth therein deny all the rest. Ca That is my saying in deed. He. How manifestly thereof doth it follow, that he which denieth directly but one article/ and he which denieth them directly altogether, be both like evil. Ca first my friend what inconueniens findest thou therein, all though it should so follow? or what impedement should it be, to any thing that I have said/ if they were both, as thou sayest, like evil in deed? He. Then your conclusion could not be true. Ca why so? He. Because, such a falsity, can never follow, of any true saying, Ca what falsity? He. I told ye before, that he which denieth but one article/ and he, which directly denieth them all, should be both like evil. Ca And is that false? There is no question thereof. Ca Then the tone of them is worse than the other. He. who knoweth not that? Ca And which of them therefore, is the worst, sayest thou? He. ye need not ask me/ for doubtless ye can tell as well as I. Ca yet would I say here it of the. He. Marry sir if ye will needs, he that directly denieth all th'articles, must needs be much worse than he, which denieth directly but one of them. Ca I thought even as much before. Thou findest many faults with my conclusions (which though I say it, be invincible) but a man may soon see, what thine be. For where as it were not again any thing, that I have said▪ all though they were both, of an equal evil, yet so much thou art wide of the mark, that he is far, the worst of them both, which thou thinkest utterly, to be lest evil. He. what he that denieth directly but one article, worse than he, that denieth them all? Ca ye, never doubt therein. He. Nay sir no more I will not ye may be sure, nor yet believe it neither: for thereto will I never agree. Ca Thou canst not tell, what thou shall know hereafter. He. what so ever it be. Ca yet hear my mind there in, and then take it, as thou seest cause. He. Sir I may so do for your pleasure, wherewith I am content. Ca Then take heed what I shall say. The evilness of every heretic, is other to himself only or else to himself and other also. He. That is plain. Ca Then first as touching other/ there is no doubt but he that denieth but one article, is a thousand fold worse, than the t'other, which denieth them all: for how could his evil, that denieth them all, hurt any more but himself? if he would, how should he be hard? I will not say, what good man, but what other heretic is there be side himself, that would abide the hearing of him? ye also what good christian man, would not be moved with the better respect, to the good keeping of his own faith, & with a more laud to god, for the conservation thereof, when he seeth such a one, that hath lost his, altogether in every point? so that other folk should by him, take rather good, then hurt. But the t'other, look how much it is less, that he denieth: so many more there be, that doth not perceive it: and the more there be, that doth not perceive it/ the more be there with, the sooner deceived/ and the sooner deceived, the more be infected: The more that be infected, the more evil, all men knoweth it is. Beside this/ how hath anyheresie been sowed multiplied, & increased, so greatly among the people, as to many hath been, but by him, which seemed to have, so much of the faith, that he was long thought, to lack no whit of it/ but yet he did for all that/ as the inenarrable evil, that followed thereof, more & more, did plainly declare at length. But by him that denieth directly all together/ there could never any such thing, be brought about. For such a one (as I said) no man would hear/ believed therefore, how could he be? if he could not be believed/ no man by him, could be deceived/ if no man could be, by him deceived: clear it is, that his evil, could hurt no more but himself. which therefore of them both, is worst, to other men. I think it needeth no further declaration. ¶ The xii chap. Here. Sir thereof, no man doubteth. For there is no question herein, which of them both, is worst to other men. But all the matter lieth in this point, which of them both is worst to himself/ & that I hold utterly (as all men doth) to be he, which denieth directly all together. Ca And I the contrary. He. Surely there at I marvel much. Ca ye thou shalt marvel at it, perchance never a whit anon, & therefore take heed what I say: if every evil be (as it is in deed) so much worse to the haver, as it is of longer contineaunce: then worse is the fault of him, that directly denieth but one secret article, then is his, which denieth them all. For how little while, should he continue, the denieth them all, over the other should? all though the people did not tear him to pieces, as in ded they would, if he were not shortly ride, by some other mean. Further more if every evil, be so much less danger, to the haver, as it hath in it, a greater occasion of amendment. Then worse is the evil of him, even to himself, that denieth directly but one article, then is his, which denieth them all: for he that denieth them all/ hath by the reason thereof, when he perceiveth himself therein, clean to vary & dissent in every point/ from all the hole multitude, of christian people, a wonders great accasyon, to revolve well the matter in his mind, and highly to consider, that very wisdom, would him therein, rather in any wise, to mystrute himself, then all them/ and so to return again: where the t'other by the reason, not only, that he seemeth (at lest to himself) to agree with the multitude, in so many points, as causeth him therefore to think, that he lacketh none. But also by the reason that he findeth oft times, diverse, of his own opinion, who almost compelleth him, more stiffly to persist, & put therein no manner of doubt/ hath for these causes, not only no such, but, as who say, none occasion at all, of his amendment/ but rather the contrary. Beside all this: no man's evilness can hurt another, but that it doth further hurt himself also in the same/ but the evilness of him that directly denieth but one article or two, hurteth sometime many thousands more/ it must therefore needs follow, that his evil, is even to himself, so much worse then is his, which directly denieth them all (whereby he hurted no man else) except thou wilt say, that it is evil to the workers, which doth most mischief. ¶ The xiii chap. Hereticus Sir I pray you this, he that directly denieth all th'articles, perchance is even as willing to infect as many more, as the t'other doth in deed/ all though he can not so bring it to pass, because, as ye said, there is no man, that will believe him, nor so much as hear him This therefore supposed, what difference, if it were so, is there between them than. Ca even as much as is between the willing of an evil, and the perfourmen of the same. The which thou mayst perceive thyself to be somewhat, or else were it no profit, to withdraw an evil will, before it cometh to th'effect. Therefore also this way, is he that directly denied but part, worse than he, that denieth all. when he hath his evil, with the defyred effect of the same/ & the t'other hath it not: for worse alway is he, which hath an evil will, and also a power beside, to perform the same (by the reason whereof th'effect never failed) Then is he that hath but an evil will only lacking a power to perform it withal/ for the which theffect can never come to pass. He. well sir, let it so be for that point, yet what if he, that denieth directly but one article hurt (as the t'other doth) no more therewith but himself? Then must he that directly denieth all together, needs be worse than he. Ca Nay not so neither. He. what speak ye of it/ it is not possible to be otherwise. For when they be both, like in will and also in deed toward other men utterly toward themself, he that directly denieth all, must needs differ in evil, from the t'other which directly denieth but part, and be far worse than he. Ca yet thou art ones again deceived. For the uttermost, that thou canst make of it that way, can be no more but this, that they should be both equal and like evil. And thou shalt not bring all that about nother, by that time thou hast followed & tried thy case, thoroughly to th'end. He. That were a strange thing to me. Ca Never the less so strange it is. For what forsyth it, all though they discord somewhat in words, when they do utterly agree in deed/ that is to say: in the very conclusion itself? what dyfferth it, to deny, directly and distynctely, Christ's nativity, his death, his resurrection, his ascension, and so forth/ and to deny directly no more but this, that he was very man (as the manichees did) whereof it must needs follow, that none of those articles could be true: cometh it not therefore all to one? or is not the tone as evil as the t'other? for all though he that directly denieth every article, denieth christ, himself, and can therein deny no more. yet he that denieth directly but one of them (as I told the before) denieth him also, & can therein deny no less. And what canst thou make of it, when christ is denied, but that he is denied? whether it be therefore, in this article or in that, in one, or in two, in two or in three/ in more or in less/ in all or in part/ it is no matter, when there is no difference, in the final conclusion but all one. For if one kill a man with one stripe. An other likewise an other, with such ten stripes, what difference doth it make in the end when it is death at the first, as well as at last? And even so, if one deny christ, in one article, an other in two, the third in three, and so forth what matter is it? or what doth it differ as touching the end, when there is as much denied in the first as there is in the last, or in all the rest? Therefore all though they be both, like in mind/ and also in deed, toward other men. yet will it not follow, that he, which directly denieth all th'articles, is any worse than the t'other: but in very deed the other is yet even to himself, much worse than he. when his evil (as I declared on to the before) is of a more quiet & longer continuance. And hath much less, ye all most none occasion at all, of amendment, but wonders much every way to the contrary over the t'other hath. ¶ The xiiii chap. Hereti. YEt will I not so give it over, for all this. For the oftener that christ is denied the more wickedness I am sure it is. And he that denieth him in many articles, denieth him so many times more, then doth he, which denieth him but in one. wherefore, he that denieth him in most articles, must needs be worse than other. Ca That followeth not neither. For he that killeth a man with xx. death strokes. yet he killeth him not likewise twenty times/ but in very deed, no more but even once. And as much doth he that killeth him, at one stroke: so he that denieth christ in twenty articles, denieth him not twenty times because of that/ but utterly even very once in deed. And no less doth he, that denieth him as I told the before/ but in one article: for a thing is not always, so many divers times denied, as the negation of it, is vocally spoken & expressed. The voice whereby the negation is showed forth, is not the very negation itself/ but only a mean to show it by. For the negation itself, when the voice is cessed and done, abideth still within, all one and the very same, that it was even then and also before. Therefore the denying of christ in twenty articles, can no more make him twenty times denied, then even one thing xx. times rehearsed/ or twenty divers ways expressed, doth make it twenty things, nor no more than twenty death strokes in one man, doth make it xx. murders. For when christ is once denied in one article/ how many so ever be denied of them, afterward beside, they be but so many showynges or so many rehersals of the same, & not so many singular denyenges of christ: as when one word is expressed and rehearsed, again & again/ the same again and again, doth not signify an other word and an other, but all way the same and the same, and none other. Therefore the word is not divers, but within it still remaineth one, neither more nor less nor none other, all though it be divers times or never so often rehearsed. There is in deed diversity in the rehearsal, but yet so is there not in the word, which is rehearsed. And even likewise, the negation and denying of christ, is not diverse in itself, all though it be showed or as who say often expressed in divers and many articles. For nevertheless it remaineth still in the very same symplicyte, as when it is showed but in one alone: for when the negation of a thing, doth consist in the mind/ and the voice but an instrument to show it with all, and is not in deed the negation itself: clear it is, that then the thing can never be twice denied, except it be once at least granted between: as thus/ if one should deny the to be a true man, so might he do, and speak never a word/ for even so he doth, when he doth once, but so think. Therefore whether he do express it twenty times, or never a on's. This negation of thy truth is yet nevertheless all one in him/ and can not be truly said, that he denieth thy truth any more or less, but even once, whether he do never so often, or never a whit express it. For when he hath once denied it, that is to say, when he hath onhis thought the no true man, doubtless that negation (like as a deadly sin on repent) whether he sleep or wake whether he think or think not of it/ whether he show it or show it not, is yet all the while in him no more, no less, nor none other, but even the very same one still, as it was at the first/ and can never be justly said, to be twain, or twice made till he himself▪ as who say, cut it in twain, by granting thy truth, that is to say, by thinking the a true man on's again, and then after that, deny it as he died before. But then, in very deed it may be truly said, that he hath twice denied thy truth, or else not: for so many times doth he think the no true man, as he doth between each time, think the contrary: but if he never think the contrary, then is all that, how long so ever it endureth, but even one thought, and one negation of thy truth. Therefore all that while, how often so ever he do express it, or how diversly so ever he doth rehearse it, all is but the showing, of a thing so long denied/ and not of a thing so often, or many times denied. For if I should say this day/ thou art no true man, and the same again to morrow, and also the next day after/ never thinking the contrary between: I should not therein three times deny thy truth/ but I should therein three times show, that I deny it: that is to say, I should show thrice, that I deny it. As one sentence may be showed or rehearsed thrice, yet the same thrice showing or thrice rehearsing, doth not make it three sentences. For it is two things to show the twenty times what I deny: and to deny xx. times, that I show thee, because in the tone, there is twenty negations, and in the t'other, there is but one. It shall not be therefore again this, that most men do think, every thing, to be so often denied, as they hear the negation thereof, expressed and represented to their ears: for therein consider not they, whether it doth still continue and abide all one, as well when it is not expressed and showed, but kept before and after within/ as when it is most manifestly and openly disclosed. It is not also again this nother, Luc. 22 that saint Peter thrice denied christ: because that negation was of an other kind, than this is/ for of that could never follow no christ, as it must needs do of this. That was in deed but feigned, resting in words only, and not in the mind. For all though it seemed and so be said, (as right well it may) that he denied christ: yet may it be truly sumway said the contrary: for he denied but that he knew him. It is two things, for me to deny thee, that is to say, to deny what thou art, and to deny, that I know the. No heretic doth deny that he knoweth christ (for all the meinie of them seemeth to confess him & no men in manner so much) but for all that, they do in deed deny what he is, which is ten times worse. Howbeit saint Peter denied but that he knew him, the which was but a feigned negation/ & did only consist in words: for it was otherwise in his mind/ because he did both think & know, that he knew him/ and did for fere but fain the contrary. wherefore all such feigned negations which hath their beings not in mind/ but only in words, may truly be said all way, to be so many, as they be sundry times rehearsed & spoken, But so may not this heretical negation that we now speak of/ which doth rest in the mind only, much more subtilely, much more secretly, and therefore a thousandfolde more dayngerously, then is possible, for the ineloquyble infirmity of the possessors & havers thereof to perceive, or so much as think for their own parts. Now therefore, all this well considered, it is not hard to perceive, that the denying of christ in one article, is (without any manner of intermission) as continual therein: as it is in twenty articles more, or in them all/ and what so ever is continual, is neither more nor fewer/ neither oftener, nor syldomer, but utterly all one. wherefore clean again thine opinion, no oftener doth he deny christ, which directly denieth him in all th'articles, then doth he, which directly denied him but in one alone. what difference therefore (because this will not serve) canst thou make else between them, but that the tone is even yet this way as evil, as is the other, whom thou thinkest to be much worse. ¶ The xu chap. Hereti. Sir, be you not yet at a point? Ca why dost thou ask. He. I would fain have some words with you. Ca I pray the a good fellowship, spare not, say what thou list. He. Surely then will I say, that ye shall never avoid. Ca In deed? He. ye shall see. Ca Go to than. He. He that denieth all th'articles, doth deny christ directly, that is to say, with apart words expressly. But much worse is it, so to do, then to deny him but indyrectely, as he doth, which denieth but one article. wherefore it must of necessity follow, that he which denieth all the articles, is much worse, than other which denieth but one. Ca Is it this, which can not be avoided? He. I think ye shall so find it. Ca first if I will not admit this, that it is worse to deny christ directly, then indyrectely. How wilt thou prove it? He. That is soon done, by this reason. The common judgement of all men, doth take the denying of christ directly, to be much worse than the t'other. And sure it is, that the common judgement of all men, can never be false. wherefore the denying of christ directly, must needs be worse than other. Again if need be this way. The more evil, doth ever move the common disposition of all men, the more grievously to punish it. But the denying of christ directly moveth all men, more grievously to punish it, than the t'other. wherefore the t'other is not so evil as it is. Ca Hast thou said. He. ye sir, and that well I suppose. Ca That is enough to the. All though it be nothing so/ as it shall soon appear. For it is, all most with one word, clean overthrown all together. Hereti. Trow ye so sir? Ca why doth not the hole pith of all thy saying only rest in this, that the common judgement of all men, do take the denying of christ directly, to be much worse than other? But how false is that, when the most part, of all men pondereth it no fault at all? For who doth any thing regard this matter, but christian men only, which be not all men, nor yet (as it is said) the most part neither. The common judgement of all men, were in deed a good principle to reason by, where it is truly taken and may have place Then is all christen people not only in a falls judgement (because they take him so) but also in a sinful purpose evermore, because they be alway, willing to punish him, more than the t'other. But so evil to judge of all christian people, were a great wickedness. wherefore there is no doubt, but that he is in deed, much worse than other. Ca A sir, thou styckest well to it, what so ever the truth be. He. think you sir, that the truth is in any other wise than I say? Ca ye thou mayst be sure thereof: for thou goest about to prove by their punishments, what the degrees of their evils be. when thou shouldest rather clean contrary, by the degrees of their evils prove, what the difference of their punishments ought to be. But nevertheless, what more punishment seest thou prepared, for the tone than the t'other? He. Sir all though that peradventure, be but because the case hath not be seen, that any such as the tone of them is, hath be found or hard of: yet if it should fortune so to come to pass. I think men would then prepare and ordain a more grievous pain for him, then for the t'other. And that would they never do, if they thought him no worse, than the other is. Ca well, suppose the same. yet is there (I pray thee) any other cause why? but that they do apertly perceive, his hole evil all together, from the first, as who say, to the last. And incomparyson thereof, almost nothing at all of the tother? for without fail, if they saw the hole evil of the tone, so open and manifest, as they do of the t'other: there is no doubt but that they would then, punish most, whom thou thinkest utterly lest: for in the tone, they would surely venge the quarrel of christ/ and lekewyse in the t'other not only that, but also the quarrel of their neighbours to/ of whom sometime he sendeth so many to hell. But all that not withstanding while men doth judge, for the most part, rather by guess (as I said) then by very knowledge, and more after as things doth apere, then as they be in deed. Thou mayst not consider & esteem, the qualities and degrees of evils, after the punishments, received at their hands. specially, when thou seest many times, as much ministered for the stealing of an horse, as for killing of a man. Howbeit if thou wilt needs perpend and way the degrees of evils after their punishments prepared for them, it must then be after those which are prepared of god (who shall give to every man after his works) and not after those, Mat. 1 which are ministered or ordained of men. He. Sir it is now by your own saying come even to the point (as I said right now) that if he which directly denieth every article, be no worse than is the t'other, which denieth but one. Plain it is then that all christian people be in a contynewall iniquity, because they be alway willing and ready, to punish him more than the other. Ca That will not follow, for they may justly punish the tone, more grievously, than the t'other. All though neither of them both be any worse than other. He. How so? Ca Is there any thing more worthy hell, than the denying of christ. He. No, that is clear. Ca Then doth hell plainly testify that there can be no punishment in this world, sufficient for any of them both, when they be both deniers of christ. And therefore of all men most worthy of hell, which far excedyth all other pain. wherefore what iniquity or injustice can it be, that men would alway more bitterly punish the tone than the t'other, when they are never able to minister so much to him, whom in offending, thou thinkest most: as is very dew to the other, whom in like manner thou thinkest least. Therefore so long as the punishment, doth not exceed the quantity of the fault, all men knoweth that utterly wrong, can it be none. But full well I wot, what trowblethe thy cogitation herein. Thou dost think, that if they be both like evil, the tone hath wrong, if he be punished any more than the t'other when clean contrary, better thou mightest reckon that the t'other hath rather wrong, if he be not punished, as much as he/ because none of them both, can have in deed, so much as his evil, doth duly require. Therefore while thou findest no fault, in the lesser punishment of the tone. And while I have proved no wrong, in the more punishment of the t'other/ yet still it standeth for all that thou hast hitherto said, that they be both, even to themself one at , as evil as an other. ¶ The xvii chap. He. NAy sir not so. For yet that must I needs deny. Ca wherefore He. I suppose ye have not so soon forgotten, what I said unto you, even almost, but right now. Ca what was that? He. Such as may not be slipped over after this manner. Ca Let me once then here it again. He. with a good will. For if ye be remembered, it was even this. He that denieth all th'articles, denieth christ directly, that is to say, with apert words expressly. But much worse is it, so to do then to deny him indirectely or consequently, as he doth, which denieth directly but one article. wherefore it must of necessity follow, that he which denieth all th'articles, is much worse, than the t'other, which denieth directly but one. Ca Is this all the matter? He. Is it not enough? Ca why let me hear, how thou canst first prove, (as I said) that it is worse, to deny christ directly then indirectely. He. Marry sir it is more plain than can need any probation: for you said even now yourself, that no man would abide the hearing of him, that would so do. And therefore when it appeareth of your own words, that he is far more audible to every man, than the t'other is/ and that could never be, but by the reason that his evil doth much more astonyshe vex and offend their cogitation, than the tothers doth: it must thereof clearly follow, that he is much worse then the other is. Ca All (as I perceive) that moveth that this to think, is no more but because men's consideration doth abhor, more him then the t'other. as good reason it is, that it should so be, and yet in deed, is the t'other, as evil as he. For man's mind is grieved and troubled two manner of ways, one with the thing itself: and an other with the manner or circumstance of the same. The manner also, or the circumstance of it, doth sometime make the thing to be worse in deed, than it is of itself, and therefore the more audible to/ & sometime it maketh it more audible, and yet never the worse in deed, for all that: as after this ensample, it shall more plainly appear. Murder thou knowest, is of itself a thing, which greatly doth offend and abhor the mind of men/ but yet if one kill a man suddenly, ere he beware of him, coming upon him privily by stealth, or else train him with some false flattering promises, and thereby convey him, to some dayngerous place or company, where he is sure he shall not schape him, or by any such other means, as he can make no manner of shift, to soccur, help, or defend himself. This manner or circumstance, doth make the murder much worse in deed, and therefore much the more audible to/ than if he had given him some warning or liberty to shift for himself: that is to say, that if he had killed him (as they call it) manfully/ and not so like a coward and traitorously. Again also for the other part/ if thou sawest one kill a man before thy face/ and then heard tell of an other, which also did the same like wise in an other place/ thy mind should much more abhor the tone than the t'other/ & yet is there none of them both any worse than other: therefore all that, riseth by the reason of th'only presence of the tone done in thy sight, which maketh a difference between them, in thine estimation/ and yet is there none between them in deed. Also if thou sawest one strike and hurt a man/ and even then, an other likewise an other/ whereof the tone dieth by and by/ and the other half a year after: The death of the first, should much more grievously touch, and trouble thy mind, then should the t'other, & therefore move the to take it worse, all though there be in the thing no such difference, nor cause why, of itself. But so cometh it to pass, by the present suddenness, of the tone, which is not in the t'other, whose property is alway to put men (specially in audible things) rather in a passion then in a just judgement: by the reason whereof they do take, that evil effect which followeth his cause immediately, and so toucheth their cogitations at the first, to be much worse than the t'other of the same degree, which followeth, as who say, by leisure, creeping little and little in to their knowledge at last: for the presence, and also the suddenness, of every grievous evil, is of such property, as doth alway cause it to seem, and so therefore to be judged and taken, worse than when it is absent and farther of, or when it cometh to knowledge leysourly (as I said) by mean at length. And yet is the thing itself all one: for if the death of him, which dieth half a year after, might come with the cause thereof, so presently and so suddenly to thy knowledge, as the death of him doth, which dieth by & by, doubtless thou shouldest then take the last as grievously as the first, & none other wise be moved with the tone than the t'other, but indifferently with them both/ as thou art now, while I, as it were thereof in deed, tell the the tale: for thou art I am sure, no more moved now with the tone than the t'other/ and all because, they be both from, or to thy cogitation, of like distance. All this therefore, well prepended & considered. Even much after the same manner, is the denying of christ directly, and the denying of him indirectly or consequently: which be taken (in deed as thou sayest) the tone far worse than the t'other, not because it is so, but because of a certain manner of circumstance, which causeth it but only to seem so: for when I here any one article denied (whereof it doth (as I said) of necessity alway follow, that christ is denied in the same) if my cogitation could then, arreche and touch therein, the very same occult and secret denying of christ, so clearly & so manifestly, so quickly and so presently, as it can the t'other, when he is at that first directly and expressly denied. Doubtless I should then, take it as grievously, as odybely, and judge it justly even as evil, as I do, when I hear him denied directly with expressed words. But now by the reason that my consideration, before it can this way, come finally to the very thing in deed, must first make therein a large progression, & (as it were) a long journey to go. first to consider th'article denied/ and than that the truth of christ is denied in the same. Tyrdely, that christ and his truth, are both our. Finally that it must thereof needs follow, that he therein is denied himself/ by the reason (I say) that my consideration, with this manner of motion and labour, half (as who say) wearied and fatigate is (as it were) not so active and lusty, but more week, dull, and unapt, to receive view and judge, the thing at length in th'end, than it would have been, if it had met, in manner, freshly withal, at the first beginning. It doth therefore much take the matter there after/ & all because it is not this way, so easy & ready to come by, as it is the t'other: for as men judge alway, those pains which be present, to be much worse, than those in every degree, of as much grief, or the very same in deed, when they be absent and farther of. Even so do they judge that evil, which is directly expressed, to be worse, than an other in every condition of the same degree, or the very same itself, when it occupieth the place of a consequent, that is to say, when it is not directly expressed, but left to follow, and given of necessity to be understand: for than it is fro man's cogitation, as it were a great way, and far of, because it soundeth not in the ears so presently and apertly, as when it is directly expressed at the first. And therefore the mind can not so take or touch it, until it may, by a due course of things, from one to an other ordinately, come to it at length. By the reason whereof it beginneth so leysourly to appear to the mind a far of at the first, and then after near and near/ that when it cometh, it bringeth therewith, no manner of suddenness, which can cause therein any great perturbans or astonyshement, whose property is always to gender diversity of judgement. Therefore this indyrect and consequent denying of christ (which is in every singular article) doth also lie, or behave itself to a man's consideration, much as doth a visible thing to his eye, somewhat farther of, then is the common dew distance of discerning thereof/ or else, being in a light, somewhat more scant & obscure, then is apt for most men to perceive it by. For the which, it is seen, of some more, some less, & of some never a deal. And therefore it doth not draw men's judgement thereof, so perfitly unto it, nor show itself unto them so clearly/ as if it stood near, or in a more pure light. And even very such like is a consequens, whereof every man's cogitation is not like capax/ but some more, some less, and some nothing at all, or very little: and all, by the reason it lieth somewhat beyond, the common journey of most men's consideration/ because it cometh not before in the face of the matter/ but as who say, in the back side of it, far, as it were behind, & long after. For the which, it doth not so vehemently move the mind that way, as it doth the t'other. And therefore men take it not so evil; nor are so much offended withal. But if a man's cogitation were of such ability, that it could as clearly, as perfitly, and as sweetly, ye rather as presently touch and take a consequent, that is to say, that thing, which of an other must needs follow, (& that perchance long after) as if it were directly expressed with apert words at the first. There is no doubt, but then he that denieth christ (as every heretic doth) but consequently, should soon appear even as evil, as he, which denieth him with apert words directly: for difference between them is there none, but only this if any be. That the very same, which is at the first, with the tone, is even also at the last with the other: for where as the words of the tone, showeth the denying of christ at the first/ even so doth the words of the t'other, show the very same, at that last. And that thou mightest clearly know that there is none other difference between them, but only thynsuffycyence of man's capacity, which is not able to arreche them both like. Thou shalt not deny me this but every thing is utterly none, otherwise than god doth know if: & this is also sure, that there can be no consequence or following of any thing, in his knowledge: for what so ever is consequent & following to us, is without fail before him no less apparent but also as present, not only as that is, whereof it doth follow/ but also as if itself were directly expressed at the first, or as any thing else, is or may be, most pnsent & manifest unto us. wherein the power and concept of our minds, doth (as I have largely declared) very greatly fail, and is far of. Therefore whether christ be denied directly or consequently, when there is, even here among us, none other difference between them, but only this/ that the tone, is so apers open and manifest, that it is, at the first perceived of any man. And that other so close, secret, and dark, that it can not be perceived, even at length, but of few men. How clear is it, that there is utterly in deed no difference between them at all, before god? where there is nothing obscure, nothing occult, nothing hid, nothing consequent/ but all bright, all open, all manifest, and all even very present: wherefore to plane it is to be denied yet still (for any thing that thou hast objected to the contrary) that he which denieth christ consequently, that is to say he which denieth directly but the lest part of the faith, is no less evil than he, which with expressed words, directly denieth christ himself and all together. when he doth the same thing as manifestly before god, as that other doth it before men/ except thou say, things be otherwise in deed, than god doth see them before him, which evermore judgeth (as saint Poule saith) according to truth. ¶ The xviii chap. Hereticus NO no sir I will not say so/ but I will say this, that it is a gay thing to dispute alone. For then a man may all way at his pleasure conclude, what so ever he list. Ca Thou shalt not need so to say, for I have none otherwise concluded, but that thou shalt have audience with leasoure enough, to say what thou canst, if thou have any thing left thereto. He. yes I trow I have/ and that enough to dyspache all this matter withal. Ca Nay I pray the none of that, for thou begylest me then in deed. He. yet such am I sure it is. Ca what so ever it be, I would once hear it. He. Hear it? why sir think you (what so ever ye say) to make me yet believe, that he which directly denieth but one article, is in every respect, as evil as he, which directly denieth, with open mouth as they say, christ himself, and all together? Nay, nay, yet am I none of that sort, which can be led by the ear, in a thing so manifest. Ca Now do I well perceive, thou begylest me in deed: for I had went (according to thy first promise) that thou wouldest have followed reason. He. what sir think you, that I will not so do? Ca So it seemeth when thou wilt needs, descent from the things which I have said, & show me no reason why. He. yes I will show you good reason why, and that such as ye have not yet hard hitherto. Ca Go to then let us have it/ & make no more a do. He. Sir this is well known to all men, that when one doth a fault against his will, it can never be so evil, as when it is wilfully done. Ca So it seemeth. He. Nay it is so in deed. Ca proceed then, tey not therewith the matter any longer. He. He therefore, which denieth christ in directly or consequently/ denieth him again his will (for as it appeareth many ways, there is no man more loath to deny him than he is) but the t'other which denieth him with apert words directly, denieth him even very wilfully. wherefore it is not possible, but that he must be worse than the t'other, which denieth him but consequently. Ca ye but I say country man, I do not perceive, that the tone denieth him any more wilfully, than the t'other doth. He. what it is to plain. Ca Not to me, for I see not the contrary, but that he which denieth him consequently, doth that himself doth/ even as wilfully, as the t'other, doth that he doth: for he that denieth him directly/ denieth him no more wilfully, than the t'other doth that same article, wherein he denieth him consequently. He. No marry sir I grant ye that/ but yet, he is not ware, as the t'other is what is included, in his negation. Ca Aha, he is not ware. I wot now right well, what thou meanest all this while. Thou wouldest I perceive say this, that a fault can never be so evil, when it is done unwares and ignorantly/ as when it is done even aware and wittingly. He. Sir the same is even it, that I mean in deed. Ca Some thought, and therefore show me thy mind again, with the same terms, and perchance I will satisfy that much more plainly by the reason thereof. He. That can not I believe. Ca Assay. He. That will I do: he that denieth christ but consequently, doubtless denieth him unwares and ignorantly: but he that denieth him with apert words directly, denieth him full ware and wittingly/ wherefore how is it possible, but that he, of necessity must needs be much worse, than the t'other, which denieth him but consequently? Ca The second part of thy reason, is clean falls. He. what is it? Ca Even as I tell the. He. Then we have it, if he that doth a fault wittingly, be no worse therein, than he, which doth it ignorantly. Ca what my friend I say not so. For that is plain enough to all men. But I can not find any such thing in this matter, that we speak of. He. why doth not he which denieth christ directly and expressly with apert words, deny him even aware & wittingly? Ca No no, I wist full well, all this while, wherein thou wouldest be clean deceived. For be thou right well assured, that there is no man in all this world, that would deny christ, if he were ware what he is. For so ware is he what christ is which denieth him directly: as he is ware, what his hole faith is, which denieth all that directly. And so ware is he what his hole faith is, which denieth all that directly, as he is ware what one article of it is, which denieth but that alone directly: and that alone doth he utterly not know, nor so much as believe neither. For sure it is that if he did, he would not deny it/ no more therefore doth he the hole faith nor yet christ himself, which denieth him and it, directly all together: what wareness or wyttyngnesse therefore, is there here, more in the tone than the t'other? Also there can no man be an heretic, but because he denieth at lest some one article of the faith. And that would he never do, but because he believeth utterly that it is none, whereof it followeth clearly, that he would never deny it, if he did know that it were one. For very much more able, is the knowledge than the believe of any thing, to let and withstand the denying of it. Therefore look what lack, both of faith and knowledge, he hath in one article, which diectly denieth but it alone. even that very same hath he in both, which denieth twain. And also in each of them likewise hath he, which doth deny three/ & so forth after the same manner, from one to an other, till it come to him, which directly denieth christ and them all. Therefore when he that directly denieth christ and all his hole faith, hath no more faith nor knowledge of him or it, then hath he, of that one article, which directly denieth but the same one alone. what more warily or wittingly doth the tone than the t'other, but even like ignorantly both? And beside this, clearly to knit up the matter withal. The knowledge of any thing, is (as I said) much more able to let and restrain the denienge thereof, then is the faith or believe of it. But thou faith of christ (as it is well known) may be so great, that it will surely cause even this life itself, with all the comodytees thereof, to be clean lost & forsaken, rather than to deny him in any case. what would therefore the very knowledge of him do, if a man had that? when that draweth, a thousandfolde more love toward him, than all his faith, in the most perfit degree, is able to do. Moreover when the greatness of faith, is of itself sufficient & able, to hold and keep, who so ever hath it, from the denying of christ in ever condition. And when it is sure also, that the very knowledge of him, is thereto much more able than it is. How clearly doth it follow thereof, that who so ever denieth him directly never doth it ware or wittingly? why therefore dost thou say, that he, which directly denieth but the lest part of the faith, is not so evil as he, which directly denieth chyrst himself and all together, because although he denieth consequently as much as the t'other doth, yet he doth it unwares and ignorantly/ & the other ware & wittingly, when there is no such matter or difference between them, as thou thyself canst now, I suppose, not chose but perceive? Therefore not withstanding this, or any other thing else, which thou hast hitherto said to the contrary. I will yet say, as I said at the first/ that as great is his evil, which directly denieth but the lest part of the faith/ as his evil is, which directly denieth christ himself and all together. As great I say, not in this or that respect, but utterly in every condition/ and in divers cases (as I have showed the before) also much worse, not only toward other, but also toward himself. This difference between them only except, that the contrary, fastly remaineth in the gross & ignorant judgement of the multitude/ the cause whereof I told the before (as it is in deed) even to be this, that they do see openly, the hole evil of the tone. And in comparison thereof, obscurely, so small a part of the t'other/ that some taketh it more, some less, some very little, & some no evil at all. what wonder therefore is it, all though the hole clear truth thereof, be far away, from so great a diversity of such a dark ignorance. ¶ The xix chap. Here. HAd I been at the first so wise to have followed this common proverb: Principus obsta. Ca what understandest thou latin? He. ye sir somewhat so so. Ca Ah I am well apaid for a thing that I know. He. I pray you what is that? Ca Go forth make an end of thy tale thou art about/ & thou shalt know here after. He. Marry sir, had I been, I say, so wise at the first beginning hereof, to have followed this common proverb, which biddeth a man always to resist & withstand the original causes of every inconvenience, this thing had never come to that point, it is ●ow at. For where as I was than, in deed not all thing so cyrcunspect to consider, what thereof at length would follow/ as very avydyous to hear, how you would handle (as me thought) so strange a matter. I did much more slenderly than I needed, let slip and pass over, the very ground of all together: by the reason whereof, it is now, to say the truth, thorough mine own neglygens, so far gone, that in good faith, I wot near what I may more say to it, in the case it is in, than I have done already/ where at the first, I could well have stayed and stopped it all together with ease. Ca Countryman thou dost not very well please me, with this manner of communication: for more dost thou now seem, to confute & refel, all that I have hitherto said with (as who say) this arrogant confession of thine own simple & feigned neglygens. Then with all the objections, which thou hast, or art able, to make to the contrary: for thou, by this means in manner as who say sklaunderst it, to be grounded upon a false principle. whereof it must needs follow, if it were so in deed, that it were but all void and nothing worth: use therefore I pray the no more such manner: but if thou think the principle, whereof it doth rise & justly follow, to be insufficient in any point/ show where the fault is, & make no more a do. He. ye know sir it may not well stand with a man's honesty, clean to overthrow, or greatly to dispraise, that he hath seemed long to uphold, and borne withal. Ca why, what meanest thou by that? He. Sir well ye wot, that I have hitherto made objections again all those things, which ye have said for the most part/ your principle except: but that have I yet in manner said nothing again till even very now, that I tell you what I could do: if it were not partly again mine honesty/ because I have seemed to bear withal so long. Ca what my friend, wilt thou be there still? hast thou such a pretty cast with thee, that when thou art driven to such a straight, as where thou canst no farther, yet thou wilt leave the matter in so great a suspicion of error, that it shall seem to be all falls/ be it never so true. Nay nay, this evasion is to manifest and plain, to do the any service at this tyme. For thou hast been to full of objections in every thing, that I have hitherto said, to make me now believe, that thou were negligent, in letting slip the principle and ground of all the hole matter, taking as who say no very good heed to that: when thou oughtest of all things in especial thereof, to be most vigilant ware & circumspect, as it did right well, even then appear, that (what so ever thou now sayest) thou were in very ded: for more therein thou didst not grant, than the very invincible strength of truth, did even compel and drive the to. Therefore this being but a feigned excuse, while it is so, that thou hast else (as I perceive by thine own words) no more in deed herein to say/ my counsel utterly shall be this (according to thy first promise) well to content thyself with reason, whereof (I dare well say) thou hast heard herein so much, that thou mayst rather blame me, for the superfluity of many things more than needed. Then for the lack of any one, which of necessity might be required. wherefore, somewhat from this matter, will I now to another/ for the which I have desired most chiefly to talk with the. ¶ The twenty chap. Hereti. WHat so ever ye say, I suppose ye will not leave this matter thus. Ca wherefore not? He. is not the cause, why any thing is done, more of estimation, than the thing itself, which is done for it? Ca That I grant. He. I marvel therefore greatly, that ye have declared unto me this matter so largely/ and would now thus leave it, showing me no word why, or for what purpose ye have hitherto brought it. when without that, it were but in manner, as who say, half naked and little worth. Ca Now countryman, I can the very good thank it is surely well spoken. But thou mayst see what it is, for the mind to be busied, with many things at one's/ by the reason whereof, it chanceth sometime, that memory loseth nothing more sooner/ then the very which, it should keep nothing reddyer. Therefore sins thou dost require (as reason doth bind me to declare) why & wherefore, I have showed the thus much hitherto. Doubtless there be causes twain/ of the which, one, in very deed is truth. And the other without fail is falsehood. For as touching the first/ if I had found, any other than truth, in any thing that I have said/ be thou well assured, I would never have spoken it: yet that not withstanding so much had I not done for all that neither/ if I had not thereto, been greatly moved, by an exceeding and a wonders falsehood. The which in very deed is even this. The time is not yet far out of mind, when of all evils, that worketh man's destruction, there was none taken so grievous & audible, as in especial heresy and treason/ and of the twain, yet heresy the worst. But now, treason abiding in his old odibylyte still (as god forbid but it should in deed) Heresy hath found the means (how so ever it cometh to pass) so to have crept out of that evil favorde garment of his due hatred (wherein it was right worthily wrapped) & hath ride itself thereof so clean/ that it is now taken, of some, to be in manner but a common offence: again of some, to be very small. And also of some to be none at all: ye and of some (which is worst of all) to be very religion & holiness/ in so much that when diverse of such as be infected withal, are spoken of, rehearsed and noted in copanyes and of one sort lamented and pitied for such points as thereof they have, so plain open & manifest, as in no case can be defended. yet tush, sayeth an other sort, a trifle, a small matter, well is he that hath no fault: the man is very sad sober & wise, for all that there can be no honester man than he is. And so forth, in such manner, that where as they have not for it, so much as any gloze or colour of defence/ which for feat or shame, they dare attempt to bring forth/ yet so much, as to them is possible/ they would by this means, attenuate and qualyfye the matter so, that they might suade men to take it, at the lest very little, or nothing blame worthy at all. wherefore seeing this word heresy, hath/ to say the truth/ among very many, against all right and reason, lost his old proper, and worthily, most hateful signification. And now in the place thereof, hath as falsely purchaysed an other, which is of all things most desyderable, that is to say, the following of christ/ for doubtless now a days, one is no sooner to note an heretic but straight weigh, their faileth not of enough, even therein noted him a follower of christ/ saying therefore/ I say/ that this word heresy, hath lost with many, his old signification, so far unjustly. And hath obtained an other as exceeding falsely/ ye & both, to the great perdition of very many. I would to god therefore, some other word were now put in the stead thereof. which might directly signify and show men, the self same thing at the first. which it will surely lead and draw, the dew and just order of reason, to espy and find in it at the last/ that is to say. I would to god such a word were now put in the place of it/ as might plainly signify, the very denying of christ at the first. The which is not in it so obscure and dark/ but that without fail, an apt and a hole mind, may yet easily see and perceive it at last. Therefore if this were so/ there is no man. I think verily, so crookedly cumberde with that cloud of dayngerous darkness, but that it would, yet one way or other, some what fray him, so rashly therein to use himself, as many one doth god knoweth to the great hurt▪ not only of themself, but also of divers other more. wherefore that this blind falsehood (to make the thing wonders light, being among all other, of most greatest weight) should not be always to the unknown (as I perceive it hath been hitherto) so much thereof I have disclosed as may (me think) be for the sufficient. And to that intent have I treated hereof so largely, and been therein (I fear) somewhat tedious unto the. But even now therefore, will I to my principal purpose directly. ¶ The xxi chap. Hereti. ALthough ye make me very desirous, ye and even think long to hear it. yet is there one thing, which doth not a little disquiet my mind. whereof fain would I first, be somewhat eased if it might be. Ca what is the matter? He. Sir now to be plain with you, without fail I have hitherto borne half a grudge in my stomach against a certain thing, which ye spoke at our first meeting. Ca I pray the what was that? Here. Doubtless a thing I may say to you, that toucheth the quick. Ca Thou makest me greatly muse thereat. He. Not so much as ye make me, what should move you to speak it. Ca I pray the what is it? He. Marry sir ye said that I am an heretic. Ca I had no such words, to my knowledge. Here. That is no matter, when ye said that ye would have asked me the question, whether I were one or not, if it had not been for this, that ye were sure ye said, that I could not tell, because there is no heretic that can tell, or so much as think, that himself is one. Ca And what of this? He. what of this? doth it not thereof plainly follow that I am one? Ca why then thou art one. He. A will ye so sir? I say it must needs follow of your words, that I am one. Ca And I say then thou art one in deed/ for whither it must needs follow of my words, or whereof so ever beside/ this is sure, if it must needs follow, it must needs be so. And therefore by this, one thou art, make of it what thou wilt. He. Tush ye be disposed to trip me now, in the manner of my speaking, when ye know right well, my meaning is this, that it must needs follow of your words, that you do take me for one. Ca O that I do take the for one? what of that I pray thee? a great matter and a grievous, as the world now goeth. when there be many even proud and glad of the name, rather than a shamed or discontented withal. He. Sir I am none of that sort/ and therefore it is to me, no small wonder, that ye will thus take me, never hearing me speak before this time, nor yet now nothing neither sins we came first together, whereof ye might take any reasonable occasion so to think in me. wherefore, if it be not to far out of your way, from your purpose which ye have chiefly intended/ I would gladly know, what should move you, to be of this opinion. Ca It is no farther from my purpose, but even, I may say to the the very high way on to it: ye & more over it is, as who say, but even at the next door by it. Therefore if thou wilt needs know why, that I do think the infected with heresy. Doubtless it is (as I promised at the first, plainly to tell the at the last) even the report, which I have herd of the. He. The report? is not here a strange matter? Ca why so? He. I pray you sir, did ye never hear any false reports in all your life? Ca yes iwis have I, & that more than I was, at the first ware of myself. He. why therefore may not this, that you hear of me, be one of them? Ca Show me first an other thing that I will ask, and I will then quickly tell the. He. what is that? Ca Didst thou never hear of any true reports in all thy life? He. yes and that many, or else it were not happy. Ca And why therefore may not this, which I do hear of thee, be one of them? He. Now I perceive what ye mean well enough. But I pray you sir, yet indifferently judge yourself, how great a madness it is, to think that all reports be true? Ca Doubtless even no more than it is, to think that all be false. He. will ye be there still? Ca ye where else? He. yet I promise you that this of me is false, say what ye will. Ca And I promise the again (no more but as thou knowest thyself) the veriest heretic in all this world, neither could nor yet would say any less, for his part then ye.. And therefore because all these, be but words in waste, & to the purpose nothing else in deed. My counsel shallbe this, to let us go forth, and stick no longer upon this point, but let it pass and make no more a do. He. Nay sir ye shall pardon me thereof/ for doubtless it shall not scape me so, but I will surely try myself therein a little better, ere I go any further. Ca I suppose it not best. For thou mayest fortune to fail of thy trial whereby the matter must then, needs appear more plainly to be true, by the reason whereof, perchance thou shalt fall into fumes and multiplication of words: & so shall all our purpose be defaced and in manner but lost, if it come ones to that point. He. Sir ye have many pretty opinions in me be like. For first ye think me an heretic▪ & now ye think me so impatient, that I can not quietly abide any communication thereof. As who say, my patience lay in your or other men's hands, and not in mine own liberty ye think that the tart words or sayings of other men should pluck it fro me, and ask me no leave, when it shall please them to minister any such occasion. But nevertheless how so ever the matter shallbe handled of your side (say or think of me what ye will) I know the part of an honest man, in tracting thereof or any other/ from the which, ye shall not see me, much decline I suppose. Ca Thou speakest very well. And therefore where as thou sayest, thou wilt try thyself in this matter, ere we go any further: truly to me it seemeth plain that thou canst never bring it to pass, by any means that thou canst find. He. yes yes that I trow I can. Ca which way? He. Marry sir divers ways, but specially by the scripture. Ca By the scripture? He. ye sir by the scripture. For I am sure the truth of a man's faith can be tried no way so well as by that. Ca As for that is an other matter/ which requireth a further disputation. But how by the scripture I pray thee, wilt thou try the truth of thy faith? Here. Sir ye know what the scripture doth teach. Ca what of that? He. Even so do I believe. Ca what manner of trial dost thou call this? knowest thou not, that one thing can never be tried by an other, except they be both known. Therefore if thou wilt have thy faith tried by the scripture, thou most first plainly declare, and show what thy faith is, and then the scripture and it once considered together, it may soon be seen, whether they do agree or not/ but otherwise it is not possible. He. This have I done all ready. Ca what haste thou done? Here. Marry sir plainly declared and showed my hole faith. Ca Not one word to me, that I wot of. Here. No but yet have I done it to divers other. Ca what is all that, to this purpose? thou knowest, it is I which do think the an heretic. And how therefore wilt thou (as thou hast pretended) try thyself clear unto me? that is to say, how shall I know that thou art none. Here. Sir I will bring you those men whom I have showed it unto, and they shall declare unto you, what it is. Ca Shall I believe them, when perchance they will not tell me the truth of it. He. yes that I dare say they will/ for they be men of high learning and of clear judgement in things of the faith. Ca They be the more able to deceive me. And whether they will or not, yet they may do, & to be sure that they shall not I can never be, unlest I myself do hear thee, declare it unto them before my face. Here. I will not greatly stick at that. Ca what shall we need therefore of them? for that mayst thou do now, as well to me alone. He. yet it is in the same case, it was before/ for when I have so done, it is for all that, at your pleasure, whether ye will therein believe me or not. Ca ye and peradventure I will not in deed. He. why then what may I do more to it? Ca Tell me therefore, where is now all thy trial become, wherewith thou wouldest so fain clear thyself in this matter? is it not as I said? He. In deed sir, to say the truth, I was (as I now perceive) therein a little to rash, to take upon me, not only somewhat more than I was ware of, but also much more than I needed, for had I been so wise to consider so much before, what should I go about to take away the suspicions minds of other men which is there own fault and not mine? And a thing far beyond my reach, when I have done the best therein that I can. Therefore so long as there is nothing laid directli to my charge, it is no matter to me, what so ever men think, as they may do at their pleasure and ask me no leave. Ca Then I perceive thou art not able to prove thyself to be no heretic, as thou didst in tend and attempt for to do. He. There is neither law nor reason that can bind me to it. ¶ The xxii chap. Catho. WHat if I will therefore, take upon me now, to prove that thou art one. He. That is another matter. I wot then right well what I have to do. Ca Thou shalt surely see me, go somewhat more than near it. He. Nay sir, nor so much neither I trow. Ca yet mark it well and tell me anon. And first to begin withal/ let me truly hear how thou dost believe/ if thou darest be so bold for fear or shame, to telll me. He. For fear or shame? what need that? Ca Because I do not perfitly know, whether thou be one of them (which are not a few) that have such a faith, as may not be disclosed to every man, but only to trusty friends, and such as be of the same believe or at least much like. They little think or consider that all though it were never so true. yet after that manner, it should never do them service. Ro. 10. For faith (saith saint Poule) is taken with the heart unto a man's justification, but the confession thereof with the mouth is made, unto his health. As much to say, that faith in thy heart, shall never justify the so, that ever it shall save thee, except thou be always willing, so to confess it with thy mouth, that thou care not who know it. Our saviour himself doth say: ●at. 10 He that will deny me before men/ I will deny him before my father, which is in heaven. Again in another place: ●. 9 He that is (he saith) ashamed of me and of my sayings/ I will be ashamed of him, when I come in the glory of my father. 〈◊〉. 14 Also: He that loveth his life before me, is not my disciple. All this well considered, thou mayest soon perceive that he shallbe forsaken of christ, and is none of his flock, which is not alway willing and ready to confess, and be ●knowen of him, not withstanding any manner of shame or fere. Here. Sir your exposition doth not well me think agree with the text. For by these authorities we are bound, that we shall not deny christ, nor be ashamed of him, and no farther. But yet a man may for all that, keep his faith, or some part of it, close and secret to himself, if he see cause. Ca There can be no such cause that can move him so to do, but other fear or shame. which by these authorities be both prohibit in this case & clean forbid to have any place. And beside that, it is none other thing to confess christ/ but to confess his faith and every part thereof. And contrary wise, it is none other thing, to confess his faith and every part thereof, but even to confess him. Therefore it must needs follow, that he which doth hide his faith or any part thereof, doth utterly subtract & clean withdraw himself, from the confessing of christ. wherein he is apertly condemned, of our saviour himself, by these words: Luc. 12. who so ever (he saith) will confess me before men/ the son of man shall also confess him before the angels of god: But he that will deny me before men, he shall be denied, before the angels of god. He. Sir here is salvation promised to him that will be acknown of christ or his faith. And perdition to him that will deny it: but here is nothing spoken of him, that will do none of them both. Ca why, there is no such. For who so ever will not confess Christ's faith and every part thereof, doth utterly deny both him & it. He. Nay sir not so/ for there is a mean between confessing and denying of a thing, the which is, when a man holdeth his peace & doth none of them both. Ca ye but that is never, as touching christ & his faith. For who so ever will not confess him, doth utterly therein deny him/ although he hold his peace & say nothing. For doubtless there is no such mean between christ and us/ as there is between us & divers other things. which we may, be neither with them nor yet again than if we will. But christ is utterly none such: As himself doth clearly testify, where he saith: He that is not with me, Mat. 1 is again me. He doth not say, He that is not with me, & he that is again me. As who say they were twain: by the reason whereof there might be another understand between him that is with him, & him that is again him. But he saith, he that is not with me is again me, that is to say/ he the self same that is not with me, is again me signifying thereby plainly, that there is no mean, between him that is with him, and him that is again him: that is to say/ there is no difference between him, that is not with him, and him that is again him, but both one. Therefore as he is again christ, which is not with him/ so doth he deny christ, which doth not confess him. And as he doth deny christ, which doth not confess him: so doth he deny his faith, which doth not confess it & every part of it (for it is (as I said) none other to deny christ then to deny his faith/ nor none other to deny his faith, then to deny him) And as he that will not confess christ, is not with him, & therefore again him: so he that will not confess his faith and every part of it, is not with it, and therefore again it. And who so ever so doth, I shall not need (I suppose) to tell thee, that his faith shall never save him. All though it were never so true. But then, what if it be false? Therefore because I could not reddely tell, whether thou be one of the sort or not. I did bid the show me thy faith, if thou dorste for fear or shame/ knowing very, well that the tone (at lest) of them two, is lightly alway the cause, for the most part, why that any of them all, doth so craftily cloak and hide it. He. Sir I marvel greatly, what should move you to put any such doubts in me, when I minister no cause why. Ca It is not unprofitable to doubt now & then. He. Sir it is yet little wisdom, where it needeth not. Ca Very well, go to then, tell me how thou dost believe. He. In christ, in whom else? Ca I ask the one thing, and thou tellest me an other. I do not ask the in whom nor in what or wherein/ but I ask thee, how thou dost believe. That is to say/ I would have the render thy faith unto me, from one article to an other particularly, and thereby shall I perceive anon whether it be true or not/ for tell not me that thou believest, as the scripture doth teach/ nor after the judgement or counsel of learned men/ nor yet in christ neither. For their be few heretics that will not make any of these answers alway. Make me therefore such an answer as is only proper and doth appertain to a true christian man and to none other. He. Sir devise your self how I shall answer you, and ye shall find me ready thereto in this matter. Ca I have told thee, particularly and distinctly. He. with a good will: I believe in god the rather, & in his only begotten son jesus christ, which was borne of a virgin, and suffered death for our redemption, & rose again from death to life, and ascended to heaven, and so forth. Ca So forth? why then goest thou not forth? He. It were to tedious ye know to rehearse them all distynctely. Ca Not one whit, thou shalt have leisure enough. He. Sir it would in manner yet make me weary, and beside that, perchance they should not come all to my remembrance. Therefore if their be any article, wherein ye suspect my faith to fail, it is a near way to tell me which they be, and I shall briefly make you an answer. Ca with that am I very well pleased. And therefore among all other how dost thou believe, as touching the blessed sacrament of the altar? He. I believe it is the sacrament of Christ's very body and blood and therefore most excellent and chief of all other. Ca ye but I would know, whether thou think, the very substance of the breed and wine, to be turned in to the very blessed flesh and blood of our saviour christ, so that he himself be presently in the sacrament or no? He. Sir god is the judge, & knower of my thought, & no man else. And therefore I marvel, that ye will require of me, any such thing as appertaineth properly unto him. Ca Doth the knowledge of thy thought, so appertain unto god, that thou shoals show no man, what thou thinkest? He. Not without I list myself Ca No not in some things. He. Nay in nothing? Ca why, hast thou forgot ten thyself so soon? He. wherein? Ca Art thou not bound to show, who so ever will ask thee, what thou thinkest in any article of the faith? O ye say truth, I had forgotten that in deed. Ca why therefore dost thou stick in the matter with me, all this while? He. It is no article of the faith which ye speak of. Ca Ha? what is that? He. Even as I tell you. Ca Thou speakest so strayngely, that I wot near well what thou meanest. Tell me therefore thy mind again I pray the. He. I say it is no article of the faith. Ca what, not that the very blessed lively body of our saviour christ, is presently in the sacrament? is that no article of the faith. He. None that is necessary to be believed under pain of damnation. Ca Aa countryman, I thought even as much, all this while. For full well I wist, it would out at last, if it were true that I have hard, as I do now find it in deed. For doubtless now I know, that thou haste taken this cursed false doctrine of Iohn Fryth, which hath in the beginning of his book not only the wicked sentence, but also the self same words, which thou hast here expressed. Therefore because that I have long and often hard, that thou art wondrously blinded, in especial with him among all other like, in so much (as I hear) his book is seldom out of thy bosum: I have by the reason even thereof, been greatly desirous (as I told the at the first) to talk with thee, to th'intent I might see, whether thou hast or canst invent and ymagyon for his defence or excuse, so much as any colour of reason, that I can not manifestly prove to be utterly plain falls. wherefore let me know, what thou wilt say to the matter. ¶ The xxiii chap. Here. FOr so much as it apertly doth now appear, that ye bear not so little grudge, again gentle Fryth, but that ye stick not thus to exclaim him such an exceeding heretic. And also me an other to, by the reason I follow the truth as he did. How tartly therefore would ye have torn, and (as they say) under the foot clean down trodden, his good name, & the good opinion which many hath in him if god had not provided him to leave behind him, such a book (for all your saying) as doth not only defend him clearly for his own part/ but also much comfort and quiet all such lovers of the truth as he was himself? Ca In deed thou speakest properly. How be it I will agree well with the in this, that god provided him to leave a book behind him/ but without fail none such as thou speakest of, nor yet to that purpose neither/ but utterly to declare his audible falsehood, and to stop the mouths of all his favourers. He. Sir to speak of him as ye do & show no cause why, it were a strange thing. Therefore tell me, what fault ye find with him. Ca Doubtless it passeth one days work. But nevertheless, first I marvel, that thou canst not espy his exceeding presumption in this that ever he would desire, look after or hope, to be followed believed or hard, of the great multitude of christian people, & that in so great a matter upon his own only bare word & nothing else. He. Sir I marvel much more, that ever ye would lay it to his charge, when there is nothing in his book more plain than the contrary. For there (if it be well marked, full clearly doth he signify, that he desireth in nothing to be believed, but only wherein the authority of scripture, or the minds of old holy doctors, or else natural reason, doth well and surely make for him, unto any of the which he that will not incline cleave and consent, is utterly no good christian man. And therefore in this point, ye reprehend him without cause. Ca Not one whit. For if all these authorities which he bringeth for him, make utterly nothing with him in deed. Thou shalt not then deny, but that there doth no manner of thing remain, wherefore he should be believed/ but only (as I said) his own very naked & bare word. Therefore when he divideth his book in two parts/ one wherein he would prove it no article of our faith which we are bound to believe, that the very lively body of our saviour christ is presently in the sacrament. An other, wherein he would also prove, that he is not therein in deed. Let us omit the great & manifest foolishness of this division, until we have somewhat tried how he proveth the first part of it. which he calleth the foundation of his matter & doth not a little boast it, to be of no small strength. Therefore what so ever thou hast found in his book, to make (as thou thinkest) any more for his purpose than other/ let me hear it/ & thou shalt soon see what I will say to it. He. Then will I tell you even what he saith at the first. Ca Go to then quickly. He. Sir his very words doubtless be even these. first we must all aknowlege/ he saith/ that it is none article of our faith/ which can save us/ nor which we are bound to believe under the pain of eternal damnation. For if I should believe that his very natural body both flesh and blood were naturally in the breed & wine/ that should not save me/ seeing many believe that/ and receive it to their damnation. For it is not his presence in the breed/ that can save me/ but his presence in my heart through faith in his blood/ which hath washed out my sins/ and pacified the father's wrath toward me. And again if I do not believe his bodily presence in the breed and wine/ that shall not damn me/ but the absens out of my heart through unbelief. Now sir what say you to this? Ca In very ded, I say this to it/ that first we must all a knowledge (as it doth plainly appear) that he hath here brought for him, none authority of scripture, none of old holy doctors, nor yet so much as any one spark of reason or truth other if thou pounder & mark it well: for when he saith we must all a knowledge that it is none article of our faith, why doth he add this clause unto it, which we are bound to believe? as who say, there be articles of our faith, & this is one of them, which we are not bound to believe. He. Nay not so, but under the pain (he saith) of damnation. Ca O, as who say, yet under some other pain. when even after his own doctrine there is in this case between god & us, none other pain in deed, but only that: for he doth stiffly hold, that there be no pains of purgatory after this life: & for all the pains that here be, concerning such things, he doth utterly account & reckon, to be but the very cruel tyranny of men, and doth nothing bind us in consciens. Therefore when there doth hang between god & us, no manner of pain upon the defection and failing of faith in this article, but damnation only say we, nor yet that neither saith he (as his own apert words doth clearly testify) justly to this it must needs come/ that, when he saith it is none article of our faith, which we are bound to believe under the pain of damnation. It is no more nor none other to say but even that it is none article of our faith, which we are bound to believe under any manner of pain, between god & us. And what so ever is to us under no pain/ it is without fail under no bound at all. For if there be no pain upon it/ we may choose whether we will, or not believe it: if we may choose, plain it is we are not bound: if we be not bound to believe it/ doubtless then are we not bound to believe the truth of christ: for surely the truth of christ is in it/ or else it is in deed none article of our faith. Therefore if that be it which Fryth doth mean, that is to say, that it is none article of our faith in deed. why then did he so prettily put unto it this clause which we are bound to believe? as who say, yet it is one for all ye. And again why did he add unto that also this, under the pain of damnation? as who say, yet under some other pain. But let all that pass, and mark me this. Other he doth think it an article/ or else he doth think it none: if he think it none, how falls a teacher is he in this that he saith, we are not bound to believe it, under the pain of damnation. when it must needs follow thereof, that it is no damnable thing, to not believe the truth of christ which is himself? For if it be not the truth of christ/ thou knowest (as I said) it can be none article of his faith. Again if he think it no article: how falls a liar is he then, in this that he saith plainly, it is on●● as in the xxvi leaf of his book, it doth apere by his own words, which be these. Though it be/ he saith/ an article of our faith/ it is none of our creed in the xii articles which are sufficient for our salvation. He. Marry sir this doth open all the matter. Ca How so? He. He saith it is an article of our faith/ but yet it is none of our creed. Ca A so, & therefore we are not bound to believe it: an wholesome doctrine: it is no article of our creed neither, that the gospels be true/ therefore we are not bound to believe it: it is none article of our creed neither, that there was any such Peter & Paul as we speak of, therefore we be not bound to believe it: it is none article of our creed neither, that any of their epistles be true/ therefore we are not bound to believe it: here is gay gear as they say. Howbeit I can find one article of our faith which is none of our creed in the xii articles and yet we are bound to believe it, and that under pain of damnation. He. which is that? Ca without fail that Fryth doth teach an exceeding foolish falls & a devilish doctrine. He. Tush not so sir for all this: for although these things, which ye speak of, be not directly expressed among the xii articles of our crede/ yet perchance they may be found as surely to follow of some of them, as though they were expressed in deed/ therefore are we as much bound to believe them. Ca if that be so, there is no doubt but that it is even likewise of this article, which he laboureth so fast to overthrow. Therefore what a thing is this, that he doth confess it an article of our faith/ & yet doth say that we are not bound to believe it? whereof it must needs follow that we may without peril leave the believe of it/ & come to heaven with a piece of a faith, with a faith as who say radged rent and all to torn/ wonders evil favoured in imagination & a thousand fold worse to have in possession. Also what a thing is it, that he doth confess it an article of our faith/ and yet labour so fast to prove it none? He. Nay not so, for he laboureth no more but to prove, that we are not bound to believe it. Ca Then beside that foolish wickedness, & wicked foolishness. what a thing is this (to conclude withal) that he doth confess it an article/ and yet as all his hole book doth declare, his purpose doth none other, but only to prove that there is no such thing: so that he would have an article of our faith to be falls. For when he doth hold (as his hole purpose is to prove) that the very blessed body of our saviour christ is not presently in the sacrament/ and yet doth hold also that it is an article of our faith, who can more clearly overthrow him, than he doth himself. For the very pith of the matter is even this, that it is an article and yet it is false, that is to say, an article and yet no article/ the which cometh even to this that it is the truth of christ, & not the truth of christ/ that is as much to say, as the truth of christ, is no truth/ and that is none other, but that christ is no christ. Therefore while this is enough, to see what manner a thing it is, which he doth here take upon him to prove. Let us now try what manner of probation he doth make thereof. ¶ The. xx.iiii. chap. Here. THat sir me think ye might better have done before. For what the thing is, it is not hard to perceive by the probation thereof. whose property is but even to show (if it be truly made) what the very thing is in deed. Catho. There is yet for all that no labour lost/ for oft times, there may be made a false probation of a true thing/ the which although be no probation in deed. yet unto some it may seem to be one. And even contrariwise/ a false thing may seem to be truly proved/ but yet in deed it can never be. The thing therefore well and perfitly known doth ever give a clear light, what the probation of it is. But the probation is not of that effycacyte always to show what the thing is. Therefore because a man may be sometime deceived of the thing, by the probation/ and never of the probation, by the very thing. I have showed the partly, what the thing is itself, whereby thou mayst somewhat conjecture what his probation thereof will be. And to put the clean out of doubt what it is in deed when (as thou didst rehearse) he doth say. If I should believe that his very natural body both flesh and blood/ were naturally in the breed and wine/ that should not save me/ saying many believe that & receive it to their damnation. Beside that he doth here call it bred and wine, as though it were so in deed, the which is false (as here after it shall well apere) And beside his foolish speaking in this that he saith, if I should believe that his very natural body were naturally therein. As who say because we do believe that Christ's very lively body, is presently and verily in the sacrament, we believe it to be therein naturally. when we do not believe it to be so in heaven. And yet we believe it to be verily there in deed for all that. But this man doth speak as though it were alway a general rule, that where so ever any thing is presently in deed, it were there also naturally. As who say, if a bladder were bloens full of air/ & conveyed by violence down to the bottom of the water, it were there naturally. Or as who say, when god took helyas from the society, 〈◊〉. Re. 2 and company of mortal men, and did lift him up into heaven, he passing through the air, was there above naturally. Beside (I say) all this nothing to the purpose, what is there, in it else, which doth prove it none article of our faith, which we are bound to believe? He. That many believe it (he saith) and receive it to their damnation. Ca what meaneth he by that? Are we not bound to believe it, because they believe it? He. Nay not therefore. Ca what then? because they receive it? He. No nother. Ca Then is it because they believe it & receive it to? He. He meaneth not so neither. Ca How then? He. As Poule saith, he that eateth and drinketh it unworthily, doth eat and drink his own damnation. Ca A than he groundeth himself herein upon s. Poule. He. ye what else? Ca In deed it were else but his own dream, as I ween we shall find it nevertheless. Therefore if we be not bound to believe it, neither because they believe it/ nor yet because they receive it/ nor because they believe it and receive it both, but because of that, that followeth, that is to say to their damnation. Then, why is it to their damnation? He. For their unworthiness. Ca Therefore when his reason is this, that we are not bound to believe it/ because many receive it to their damnation/ and they receive it to their damnation because of their unworthiness. How clearly doth it follow that their unworthiness is the cause why, that we are not bound to believe it? And how mad a wit hath he, which will think, that any man's unworthiness, can set us, of or on as they say, with the bond of our believe, in any point of our faith? He. Sir yet ye take him wrong still. For he doth not mean, that the believing or unworthy receiving of it to their damnation, is the cause why that we are not bound to believe it. But he doth mean, that it doth surely show, that we are not bound to believe it. Ca that they do believe it, doth rather show, that we be bound, to do so to, than the contrary. He. what when they receive it to their damnation. Ca why do they receive it to their damnation? because they believe it? He. Nay that is not his mind ye may soon perceive. For than he would not have said, we are not bound to believe it/ but, we are bound not to believe it. Ca Therefore what is this to the purpose of our bond: if he could have proved, that such as do not believe it/ were in no danger therefore/ it had been then an other matter. But to say, saying many believe it, therefore we may lawfully chose: a wise reason. He. Sir it is not that neither which Fryth intendeth to show it by. Ca why then doth he speak it. He. That shall not skill/ but this is it: that they receive it to their damnation. Ca Doth that show that we be not bound to believe it. He. clearly me think. Ca I pray the look yet better upon it/ & tell me in good earnest, whether it doth seem rather to show, that we be not bound to believe it, or else that we be not bound to receive it. He. receive it? what we be bound thereto by the plain words of the gospel. Luc. 22. Ca That I grant to be truth in deed. But whether of them both doth Frith's words seem rather to show? if he had said, many believe it, to their damnation: had not that somewhat seemed to show it? He. It had been plain then. Ca Therefore it is as plain now, that his words doth show, that we be not bound to receive it, directly again the commandment of christ. For where he saith that many receive it to their damnation. if he had said (as he dorste not in deed) that many believe it to their damnation: it would yet that way no more have followed, that we be not bound to believe it. Then this doth follow now of the t'other, that we be not bound to receive it. But while it is clean out of doubt, that this doth nothing follow, that we are not bound to receive it, For all that his sentence might somewhat seem, to sound as it were toward such a thing. How much less therefore doth this follow thereof, that we are not bound to believe it, when there is not in it, so much as one word which can signify any thing toward it? Therefore when these words (which he gathereth out of saint Poule) doth in deed show nothing else but this, 1. Cor. ● that such as receive it unworthily do therein commit a damnable offence/ and doth not show (as I said) that we be not bound to receive it: whereof it might seem to bear in the respect of nothing, as who say some colour. yet would he have us take that thereof which hath neither truth, nor so much as any likelihood of it other: for if this, that many receive it to their damnation, do prove or sound any thing like, that we be not bound to believe this article of the blessed sacrament. Doubtless it doth an hunderde times more prove & sound to this, that we are not bound to receive it. which is directly again the scripture. ●uc. 22 Therefore where he doth consequently say to maintain this purpose withal, these words. It is not his presence in the breed that can save me/ but his presence in my heart through faith in his blood/ which hath washed out my sins and pacified the father's wrath toward me. what is there herein, but that it is none article of our faith, which we are bound to believe (as he saith) under the pain of damnation, that the very body of our saviour christ is presently in heaven. He. what I marvel that ye will so say/ for Fryth hath no such words Ca No it is enough for him so to teach, although it be in other words. For when he doth say, that it is not his presence in the breed that can save him. what doth he else intend, but thereby to prove, that we are not bound to believe it. Here. That I grant. Ca hearken well to me therefore, and the self same words that he speaketh of Christ's bodily presence in the sacrament. Thou shalt hear me speak them, of his bodily presence in heaven, & then tell me thyself, whether it be as I say or not. He. Sir even forth with, I pray you go to. Ca It is not his presence in heaven that can save me/ but his presence in my heart through faith etc. (now thou knowest his conclusion is) wherefore it is none article of our faith which we are bound to believe: how sayest thou therefore to it now? He. Sir it is a chance/ the wisest man that is may overshot himself sometime. Ca A playest me that countryman? I told the somewhat of such gloss before, how be it that shalt hear him therefore a little better: it is not his presence (he saith) in the breed that can save me, but his presence in my heart through faith. And therefore it is no article of my faith which I am bound to believe. For (as who say) if it were/ it should save me all though his presence were not in my heart through faith/ that is to say/ although I believed not in him. (And even again like wise) it is not his presence in heaven that can save me, but his presence in my heart through faith. And therefore all though it be an article of my creed, it is yet none of my faith, which I am bound to believe. For (as who say) if it were, that should save me/ although his presence were not in my heart through faith/ that is to say/ all though I believe not in him. Here is a blessed doctrine and a gracious, is it not trowest thou? He. Sir and ye be so disposed, ye may make of every man's tale, what ye list after this manner. Ca I marvel that thou wilt say so. For surely I do make none other, then thereof must needs follow: for thou seest thyself, that even the same words which he speaketh here of Christ's bodily presence in the sacrament. He might even as well have spoken them of his bodily presence in heaven. And even as much make they against the faith of the tone as the t'other. For when he saith/ it is not his presence in the breed that can save me. wherefore putteth he this to it, but his presence in my heart through faith? but as who say, if it were an article of his faith which he were bound to believe, it could save him, without his presence in his heart through faith. Even as I might say: it is not Christ's presence in heaven that can save me, but his presence in my heart through faith/ & therefore it is none article which I am bound to believe. For if it were, it could save me well enough without his presence in my heart through faith. Thou sayest, I make hereof as I list. I would fain here of thee, how any better might be made of it. Howbeit it were pit to spill any more time about it. And therefore where he goth further and saith of the contrary part. If I do not believe his bodily presence in the breed and wine/ that shall not damn me but the absence out of my heart through unbelieve. Look now thyself if he might not as well have said: if I do not believe his bodily presence in heaven, that shall not damn me, but the absence out of my heart through unbelieve. How sayest thou? is it not well proved of him, that Christ's bodily presence in the sacrament, is none article of our faith, which we are bound to believe. when he proveth utterly by the same reason (as he did before) even as much, of his bodily presence in heaven? But where he saith if he do not believe it, that shall not damn him. How will he prove that? or why doth he not so much as pretend or seem to go about it? but without fail because his lie therein, is so great, that it will with no manner of thing be covered, but only with thee, which hideth it from himself and such other/ that is to say/ with his false faith. which in deed doth so infatuate his wit, and make him so blind, that if thou mark it well, thou shalt find, that he doth make all his disputation, as though any one article by itself, were sufficient to save, who so ever believe it, without the rest. For when he saith if he should believe his bodily presence in the sacrament, that should not save him: if he had put this word (only) to it, and said/ that only should not save him. we must needs then have grant him ye. For it were so the truth in deed. But than had it been directly again his purpose. For it must have followed thereof, that he were bound to believe it. Therefore he left out this word (only) which should signify that the believe of one article by itself, can not save us without the other, & so remaineth his sentence plane to the contrary, because it were else directly, (as I said) Again his own purpose: also when he would prove, that he is not bound to believe it, by this, that if he did, it should not save him: it must needs follow of the contrary/ that if he were bound to believe it & so did, than it should save him. whereof it appeareth (as I said that all his disputation runnet still upon the sufficience of one article alone/ when the truth is this, that all the articles, one lacking, are not able to save a man/ but clean contrary, one failing is only able to damn him. As saith saint Poule. 1. Cor. 5. A little leaven doth torn the taste of all the hole globe of dough. Therefore now, for a conclusion of all, that thou hast yet recited of his saying, when he doth grant, that it is an article of our faith, and then doth so say, that we are not bound to believe it, that he laboureth all that he can to prove it: there thou mayest perceive thyself that he lieth both in word and deed. And when he saith we are not bound to believe it/ and yet doth confess it to be an article of our faith. whereof it followeth, that he would not have us bound to believe all the faith of christ. Therein thou seest he lieth again. Also when he laboureth in all his book to prove that the very blessed body of our saviour christ is not in the sacrament. And yet doth say, that it is, an article of our faith, whereof it must follow, that christ hath one article of his faith stack false, Therein, I will not tell thee, that he lieth, because his falsehood is to manifest. For when he doth say, that it is an article of our faith, and then goeth about, not only to prove, that we are not bound to believe it/ but also that there is no such thing in deed neither, who would not so consider therein his double deceit, that he might betime, beware not only of him, but also of any such other like? But now therefore, because we have herein spent somewhat more time than needed in an error so plain. And yet not half so much as the foolish falsehood thereof would require, if it should be fully declared. if he have aught else, that seemeth to thee, any thing more, to maintain or make for his evil purpose then this/ bring it forth and thou shalt hear what I will say to it. The xxv chap. Here. MEthynke sir, he hath, for all this, in a certain place, such a strong reason for his purpose, as all the world can not avoid. Ca what so ever it be, thou mayest yet, by this that is past, of one of these to, be sure/ that other it is not true in deed, or else it maketh nothing for him. He. By that reason, it can make nothing for him whether it be true or false. Ca That can be no lie/ for there is nothing, that can truly, make with falsed. He. yet ye shall hear it. Ca Thereto I grant. He. In the iii leaf of his book even these be his words. And first that it is/ he saith/ none article of our faith necessary to be believed under pain of damnation/ may thus be further proved. The same faith shall save us which saved the old fathers before Christ's incarnation. But they were not bound under pain of damnation to believe this point. Therefore it shall follow that we are not bound thereto/ under pain of damnation. The first part of mine argument/ is proved by saint Austen ad Dardanum. And I dare boldly say/ almost in an. L. places. For there is I think no proposition which he doth more often inculcat than this/ that the same faith shall save us which saved our fathers. The second part is so manifest that it needeth no probation For how could they believe that thing which was never said nor done. And without the word they could have no faith/ upon the troth of these two parts must the conclusion needs follow. Now sir how say ye to this gear? Ca Countryman as thou sayest, it is perchance after the judgement of some, a great and a sore reason. But yet I promise the one thing it seemeth to the no more true/ than thou shalt find it clean false. And for the more surer trial thereof. Thou must first consider this/ the logic is a certain. He. Nay then we have it, and we come in with logic. Ca what soft mayest thou not abide the hearing of it. He. Marry yes, I can hear it well enough/ but what. Ca A than hold thy peace a while I pray thee, thou knowest not what I will tell thee, logic (I say) is a certain art, which doth teach a compendious way to discern the verity, from the falsity. And that can not be done except both be known. Therefore among all other, there is for the purpose invented a certain argument, which is made and form, of three parts, of the which three, the first and the second, are called in schools, two propositions, the more & the less. And when these two, in their convenient kind be both true/ then the third part, which of them must needs follow, and is called the conclusion, can never be false. And again, when any of these two propositions be false, the conclusion which should follow, can by them never be true. This argument also, when the first part and the second is true, wherefore their necessary conclusion must be true to, it is called then a syllogismus. And when any of them both be false, for the which their intended conclusion, can by them never be true, it is then called a sophistication/ so that between logic & sophistry, there is in this case no difference, but under one manner & one form, the tone holdeth the verity, & the other the falsity. This faculty therefore, I dare well say, there is no just lover of truth, but he will judge it very necessary to be had/ when it is but the trial of the same: yet is it a thing, which in especial your school doth utterly forbid and cry out upon. But that would ye never do if your teaching were true. For who be they that teacheth a doctrine, and forbid their disciples the judgement of such as can best discern what it is, but only falls harlots, which goth about to deceive men? He. Sir why speak you this? Catho. Truly for this cause, have ye not brought the name of logic & philosophy in such a slander of subtile and false craftiness, among no small sort of such as knoweth it not, that they do now suspect, ye & abhor the judgement of any man, so much the more, as they think or hear tell that he is learned therein? But for your this doing, how great and exceeding is your shame in the sight of them which do perceive your dealing? And yet how little is all that, in respect of this, that ye may well be proved to use the same yourself, that is to say/ to use very sophistications, and play the only sophisters yourselves? to the great illusion and deceit of the people, for all your crafty bidding them so fast to beware of it in other men, lest by them perchance they might learn to espy and perceive therein your crafty falsehood, which ye would have creep still in the dark, unto the time it might put out & extinct all the light? He. Sir I pray you give me leave/ we go about the trial of Frith's matter, what is all this to the purpose? Ca why dost thou not perceive it. He. No truly/ for he never used any such thing as ye speak of. Ca No did? shall I need to rehearse to thee (which dost know it so well) how he doth exclaim and cry again sophisters and sophistry/ almost in every corner of his book? He. why what then? Ca In deed I shall tell the what then/ because thou knowest it not thyself, inquire of any man that can skill of it/ if he do not say, that this, which thou haste now rehearsed of Frith's words, is the self same scholastical argument, which I have here dyscrybed unto thee, and is daily used in the schools, take me for such a one as I say to the that he is. Howbeit I do not mean, that it is the same argument, which is daily used in schools when it holdeth the verity, but utterly the same, when it holdeth the falsity, only with these two differences, that in the schools, it is put in latin, and here in english: and again there it is but a feigned falsehood, to teach men to beware of it: and here it is an earnest falsehood to teach them to be deceived with it: and to prove this that I say to be true, first I shall not need to bid thee, to bear well his argument in mind, which hast rehearsed it unto me thyself. Therefore if thou mark it well, the hole pith of it, doth rest upon the saying of saint Austen, which is this, that the same faith shall save us which saved the old fathers before Christ's incarnation. Now if saint Austen had not said the same faith, but another faith shall save us etc. it had been utterly nothing for Frith's purpose. Therefore thou mayst plainly see thyself, that all the weight of the matter doth lie in this word/ the same/ wherefore let us now try further, what manner of word this is/ whether it be apt to build a good argument upon or not. And therefore tell me truly what thing thou art. He. what thing am I/ but a man? Ca Am I any other thing then that? He. No that is plain. Ca Then am I the same that thou art and thou the same that I am. But what so ever the same that I am doth. I do/ and what so ever the same that thou art doth, thou dost. Therefore it must needs follow that what so ever thou dost I do, & what so ever I do thou dost because thou art the same that I am/ and I the same that thou art. He. Nay sir that will not follow. For although we be each the same that other is in nature/ we do yet differ in person: for ye be one person and I an other: and not the same that you be/ nor you the same that I am. Therefore your acts be not mine/ nor mine yours. Ca yet thou thyself, when thou were first borne were the same in nature, and the same person then, that thou art now & the same now that thou were then. He. That I grant. Ca But thou were then, not one yard long. Therefore it followeth no more thou art now. He. ye sir? will ye make me believe that? when it is two things to be the same in nature and person/ and to be the same in quantity/ therefore ye may be sure that I meant not so. Ca yet that except, thou wilt grant thyself to be now, the same that thou were then. He. ye that except. Ca And then thou couldst neither speak nor go. whereof it followeth no more thou canst now, while thou art now the same that thou were then. He. Sir after this manner ye might reason also of mine age and my knowledge with all other powers and qualities beside, when ye may be sure I do not so mean. Ca Then tell me this, were not all english people an. C. years past, bound to the common law of this land, and we now living, also to the same? He. That is no doubt. Ca Go to now, and take heed what I say: we be bound to the same law that they were, which lived an. C. years past. But they that were living an. C. years past, were not bound to the statutes and acts of the last parliament. Therefore it followeth no more be we now: except thou wilt say, they be no part of the law/ and than we be not bound to them neither. He. Sir we be bound to the same law that our elders were, & they to the same that we be. But this is understand the same in general, that is to say, the law of england, without any respect of parts. For it was none other, nor no less, than the law of england, which they were bound to/ nor it is no other, nor no more than the law of england neither, which we are bound to. Therefore when it is no more nor less nor yet none other, it must needs be the same/ but it is the same (as I said) in respect of the hole generally/ and not the same in respect of the parts specially, by as many acts & statutes as hath been sins for considerations added on to it more than was than. Therefore your argument is false and can not hold. ¶ The xxvi chap. Catho. countryman thou spekek herein very well: & therefore mark what I shall say unto the. when it is so, that this word (the same (is of a signification so ambiguous and incertain/ that a thing may be said the same in nature, & not the same in the property of a person/ or the same in them both, and not the same in quantity/ or the same in all three, and not the same in power, or the same in one quality, & not the same in an other: or the same in general and not the same in special: or the same in all these, and yet not the same in many moo beside: when a thing (I say) may be called the same, & yet not the same, in so many respects. why did not Fryth with all his sophistery (again that which he speaketh so sore, and yet used nothing more) why did he not consider all this in the word, and put away the doubtful understanding thereof/ before he made there upon his argument? saying it might chance to be (as of him it is) taken otherwise, than the author did intend? other he knew or he knew not, that he should so do, or else to take it for no ground or principle to dispute upon: if he did not know it, that is to say, that if he did not know that a conclusion can not be proved by any principle which is incertain. Doubtless he was then to blind a teacher to be believed/ specially in so great a matter as this is. For all men knoweth it is again both nature & reason to come by surety, by incertitude: again of the other part, if he did know it, and yet would, as he did, tumble forth his argument nevertheless: what other thing could move him so to do, but only wilful malice. For be it in case, that I perceived a word or a sentence the sense whereof, were doubtful & incerteyne (for the which no truth there upon were probable) and yet before the ambiguyte thereof were put away, would ground mine argument upon the same. what could cause me so to do, but only to make men think, I prove that I prove not/ and so make them believe, that thing which is not. For the intent of every earnest argument, is all way to cause the conclusion to be granted, whether it be true or false. Therefore what motive thereof canst thou find, in who so ever so doth, but even a malicious intention to deceive other? wherefore, whether blind ignorance, or else this wilful malice, were the cause why, the Fryth did build his argument upon this fletting foundation, I leave it partly for this time, to thine own judgement. For of the tone, I am sure thou canst not excuse him. He. yes he might chance (as many men doth) purposely put forth an argument taken of an incertain principle, to hear what would be said unto it. Ca Nay nay my friend, that is not it, that can excuse him. For all though that be sometime used in schools, to the intent it might thereby be learned, where the falsity of such arguments doth rest. yet questyonles Fryth had here no such purpose. For he did not put it forth, to see what would be said to the contrary or that it should be learned, where the deceit of it lay. But his intent was only by the craftiness thereof, to draw men into his false and wicked opinion. The whice he held so vehemently to be true, that he laid thereupon no less wayger, than his own self, both body and soul, the loss of the which, without fail is no less like in both, than it is well known, to be sure in the tone. Howbeit that shall pass, to come to our purpose again, the which is to show, the great ignorant or wilful fasshed of him in his argument: for who, but he, would as who say, so headlong at adventure, judge s. austin (when he saith, the same faith shall save us which saved the old fathers) to mean the same faith in respect of every point particularly and distinctly, & not the same in respect of the hole together confusely? For these two considerations do much differ in every thing. And that wonders plainly in the common law as thou diddest even now declare thyself. For in the consideration and respect of the hole confusely together, it is even the same now that it was an hundred years paste, and was even than the same that it is now, that is to say, the law of england now, and none other then: the law of england then & none other now/ the which word doth sygnyfaye all the hole thing together, as it is at the time of the speaking of it, without any difference or any respect of parts. For when thou hearest it spoken it doth put the no more in mind of any one part, then of any other/ but of the unite of them all together, which the word doth only signify. But the consideration of the same in parts distinctly, doth far differ from that. For in the respect thereof, it is not even the same now, that it was an. C. years passed/ nor the same than that it is now, by all th'acts and statutes which hath been added unto it sins yet can it not follow, but that it is the same law in general still/ for all the new parts which it had not before: also a tree being full of new leaves, twigs, branches & bows, is yet the same tree, that it was, years past before they sprung out of it/ but how the same? the same in respect of the hole, but not the same in respect of every part/ for some parts be new, but so are not all. yet before the new parts were sprung out of it, it was none other nor yet no less than the same tree, that it is afterward/ and afterward none other nor yet no more, than the same tree that it was before. Therefore as the tree, full of new parts, is even the same tree that it was before/ and yet not the same in every point. And as the common law of this land, is even the same now that it was forty or an. C. years past/ and yet not the same in every point. Even so is the faith of christ now, the same that it was before his incarnation/ that is to say, the faith of christ then & the faith of christ now, all one and the same, in respect of the hole but yet not the same in respect of every point, without any manner of difference. wherefore suppose thou in it but even one difference, and tell me where is all Frith's argument become, when for any thing that is in it else, even the faith of this blessed sacrament might well be the same, which he laboureth so sore to overthrow. The xxvii chapi. Here. AN argument sir ye know right well is not to be avoided by suppositions or conjectures but by probable and manifest reasons. And therefore if ye can prove any such difference between the old father's faith before Christ's incarnation & ours now, whereof it must needs follow, that saint Austin's words can not be so understand, as you say Fryth doth take them. I wot then what I have to do. Ca without fail, there be divers differences, not only to sure to be doubted in/ but also to manifest and open to be inquired of. For had the old fathers before Christ's incarnation, believed his blessed birth passion resurrection, and ascension to be done and passed, as we do: and we to come, as they did. Even so far therein differ we each from other, that it had else been damnable, both of their part, & ours to. Also there was contained in their faith divers sacraments which we have not in ours/ and likewise in ours, which they had not in there's. and that the chief of each part. Again their faith, being much hid and covered with so many figures, dark shadows, and mystical prophesies, as in manner the hole course of scripture doth testify that it was. who therefore would not see it to be then, but obscure, gross and confuse, in respect of the pure dystyncte clearness, which ours took, by the very coming of our saviour christ himself, and the predication of his gospel? And what was that same old obscurity, but as who say, a covering of many points together confusely, which the new bright splendour of christ did open and show distinctly? More over there is no doubt, but that there were then many good and faithful folk, of the common people of the jews, beside the prophets. Nevertheless, we may not think, that they had the faith in such manner as the prophets had themselves (which were therewith immediately inspired of god) that is to say, so clearly so specially and so distinctly, but much more obscurely, grossly, & confusely/ by the reason whereof it is plain that their faith contained many things more, than they were ware of themself, the which things were yet not so hid and unknown to the prophets the taught them. furthermore it is not to be thought, that each of the prophets had it like distinctly neither. when some of them be called more and some less: as the cause whereof doth well appear by their works, of the which, some one is far more large than divers of the rest together/ god showed not distinctly all to each of them/ but some to one, and some to an other. yet we may not say, that he, or any of the common people, which had least, had for all that, any less than all together confusely: for who so ever, at the lest way, hath it not so doubtless hath utterly thereof nothing at all: because the hole faith (as I showed the before) is privily hid and contained in every part of it: finally, as the manner of having the faith, dyfferd between the prophets and the common people, of the jews then/ so doth it not only between their time and ours/ but also between some one sort and an other of us even now. For there is no doubt, but the plouman hath now the same faith, which hath the doctor of divynete, & the doctor the same that he hath, that is to say, the faith of christ, but yet far unlike. For where the plouman hath it in manner but grossly and confusely: the doctor hath it specially and distinctly. And therefore in the ploumans confuse faith/ doubtless there be many more special articles & mysteries contained, than he is ware of himself, which be not unknown to the doctor: yet nevertheless, unto the believe, as well of them, as of the residue, the plouman is not unbownde, for all that he is not ware of them: nor yet the doctor likewise neither, for all that the same faith shall save him, which saveth the plouman. Therefore when the faith between the fathers and us, hath by the reason of time, taken one difference, and that such as they could not have been saved, believing in every point as we do nor we believing as they did. And when it hath also taken an other difference in things, no less than very sacraments, & that the chief of both parts. And beside all that when there is between them & us, such a difference in the manner of having of it, that it may be said they had the same & not the same that we have/ and we the same and not the same that they had/ because that, which they had more grossly, confusely, and obscurely, we have it, more particularly distinctly and manifestly. Saint austeyne (thou mayst well know) when he saith, the same faith shall save us which saved the fathers before the incarnation, never meant (as Fryth doth falsely understand him) the same faith in every condition distinctly, but the same, in respect of the hole confusely, that is to say, the faith of christ generally, without any distinct consideration of the parts. As a man doth oft times speak or think of money, without any distinct consideration of this coin or that, or how many divers coins be contained under the general name of money. He. Sir yet still I do somewhat marvel how ye know, that Fryth (as ye say) doth understand saint austin to mean the same faith in every condition distinctly. Ca And I do marvel also, how thou couldst else find which way saint Austin's words might so much as seem, any thing to sound for his purpose: for if there were no more difference, between the father's faith and ours, but even only so much, as is in the diverse manner of having thereof/ that is to say, of our part, the particular and dystynct clearness of it which it took thorough the very coming of christ. And of their part the gross and confuse obscuryte of it, wherein it was, before that same light of the world came forth, and showed his beams abroad. 〈◊〉. 8. There is yet no doubt, but this article of the blessed sacrament of the altar, may be one of them (as it shall hereafter well appear that it was in deed) as well as it is plain of the sacrament of baptism and many other things more beside, which then as who say, involved and together wrapped, were obumbrat and covered with the shadow of that cloudy season, according to the words of the apostle, Cor. 10 saying our fathers were all under a cloud. wherefore if we should be bound to the bylove of no more things, than were open and manifest before Christ's most glorious incarnation, because the same faith shall save us which saved them than/ it must thereof clearly follow, that other our saviour christ himself brought with him no more light of the faith, that is to say, he revealed no more secrets & mysteries thereof necessary for our salvation, than were known before, or else if he did, we are not bound to believe them. what wicked person would believe or think any of them both, beside Fryth? I must needs except him, because it followeth of his own doctrine. Therefore where the manner of scoles is this, that he which maketh an argument, must to confirm the same, prove afterward, every part of it particularly by themself/ the which form & manner he doth not here miss sophistically to imitate, I will now to the second part of his argument, because I have showed the sufficiently, what his probation is of the first, except thou hast yet any thing else to say herein to the contrary. He. Sir little or nothing that I will declare till I hear what ye will say to the rest. The xxviii chap. Catho. Truly the rest, that is to say, the second part of his argument thou knowest is this, that the fathers before Christ's incarnation never believed this point of the blessed sacrament. The which he saith is so plain, that it needeth no probation/ & two causes why, he doth allege, which be these, that it was never done, nor never said. Therefore quickly te dispatch the tone of them, if he will have it follow, that the fathers before Christ's incarnation never believed it, because it was never done, in their time/ by the same reason it must needs follow, that they never believed, the blessed birth of christ, his death, his resurrection, nor his ascension: for those things were never done in their days nother. He. No sir, but yet they were done sins. Ca what of that? Fryth speaketh only of their time, & not sins. And that mayest thou know by this, when he saith, (it was never said nor done) if he had meant sins the father's time, it had been no whit sounding toward his purpose, & beside that, to plain false to: for he will, & must needs grant himself/ that it was and alway is at the least, said sins/ wherefore it is plain that he men in their time, as his own words following doth clearly show where he saith without the word they could have no faith. Therefore this conclusion which I have now showed thee, must by his reason (as I said) needs follow/ that is to say, that the old fathers believed none of those said articles because they were never done in their tyme. And so consequencly, because they same faith shall save us which saved them, and they after his doctrine believed them not. we therefore are not bound to believe them neither. A fair conclusion. Now to the other cause, if it follow that the fathers never believed this point, because they never hard of it (as in deed they could not, if it were never said in their tyme. For as faith cometh by hearing/ so hearing cometh by saying) it must also by the same reason follow, that they never believed any of those things, which our saviour christ and all his disciples did preach and teach, more than was said before their coming/ so that in all the gospels and the epistles, that is to say, in all the new testament, there is nothing necessary for the health of our souls, more than was said, hard, and understand, before the incarnation of christ in the father's time: or else if there be/ saying after this doctors mind the fathers never believed it, because it was never said in their time, and without the word (he saith) they could have no faith we need not believe it nother, because the same faith shall save us which saved them. How doth this doctrine agree with the words of our saviour christ, where to his disciples he saith: Blessed are your ears because they do hear those things which many prophets & just men greatly desired to hear, and yet heard them not: what were those things that made the ears of the apostles so happy and blessed in the hearing of them, but the sayings of christ? And why were those prophets and just men desirous to hear them, and heard them not, but because they were never said in their time? Therefore they were not bound to believe them/ and consequently no more are we, because the same faith shall save us which saved them. Take good heed, for this doctor will make the a good christian man anon, if thou mark him well. Therefore if our saviour spoke any things, of more worthiness and profit than other/ doubtless those prophets & just men, were most desirous to hear them, and yet heard them not. But the cause why was this, that they were never said, in their days. wherefore they were not bound to believe the most worthy and profitable things, that ever christ spoke: and no more are we neither, because the same faith shall save us which saved them: also the chief things that ever christ taught, are the chief things that appertaineth to the health of man's soul. But those things were they that made the ears of his apostles blessed in their hearing of them. And those things were they that many prophets and just men desired to hear and heard them not. because they were never said in their tyme. wherefore those prophets and just men were not bound to believe, the chief things that ever christ taught, which are the chief things that appertaineth to the health of man's soul, and therefore no more be we neither, because the same faith shall save us, which saved them. How much time should I spend, if I should not refrain, till I had showed thee, all such abominable inconveniences, as must needs follow of his sophistical argument? Therefore because thou hast sufficiently heard, how well he hath proved the parts thereof: behold now the hole together after the same form and manner as he doth put it/ and see how it will appear in an other article or two: The same faith shall save us which saved the old fathers before Christ's incarnation. But they were not bound under pain of damnation to believe, that the sacrament of baptism is a sacrament. Therefore it shall not follow that we are bound thereto under the pain of damnation. The first part of mine argument is proved, by saint austin (after Frith's understanding) ad Dardanum etc. The second part is so manifest that it needeth no probation. For how could they believe that thing, which was never said nor done: and without the word they could have no faith. Upon the truth of these two parts, must the conclusion needs follow: that which is this/ that we are not bound to believe, that the sacrament of baptism is a sacrament. And even by the same argument, that the blessed sacrament of the altar, is not so much as a sacrament neither: and other diverse like wise/ so, we are (as every man knoweth) bound all under the pain of damnation, to receive the sacrament of baptism, but yet we be not bound to believe it/ that is to say, we are not bound to believe the same thing, which we are bound to receive. when the just rule is this, that look of what necessity the thing is to be had/ of the same necessity, it is to be believed. But thou mayst see, what a faith this man's argument teacheth us, so new and strange as I dare well say, never true christian man was aqueynted withal: yet let us behold, the patturne of it in an other case, one's again/ and so (as they say) bless us clean from it forever. The same faith shall save us which saved the old fathers before Christ's incarnation. But the Jews dispersed now in christendom (as in Rome and in other places) have the same faith, which the old fathers had before Christ's incarnation. Therefore it shall follow, that the same faith shall save us, which these jews hath now. The first part of mine argument, (after Frith's understanding of him) is proved by saint austin ad Dardanum etc. The second part is so manifest, that it needeth no probation. For the credence of so many, no light persons, but of sober wits and good learning both, as hath come from Rome & other places (where the jews be now abiding) and hath made report here among us, not only of their faith to be the same, which was the old fathers but also of their exceeding diligences, wherewith they cease not to keep and observe the old law and the ceremonies thereof/ instructing teaching and bringing up their children in such manner therein, that they be thought, more prompt ready and perfit in the old testament, at xvi. or xviii years of age, then be the most of our students at thirty. The credence I say of those so many grave & sad persons coming from where those jews be, and reporting these things of them, with much & many other more concerning the same/ doth show an argument inevitable, that they have now the same faith which the old fathers had/ specially when in their fast holding & keeping thereof, doth consist all their great hope, and hole trust of pleasing god to their salvation. wherefore upon the truth of these two parts, must the conclusion needs follow/ that which is even this, that the same faith which the Jews hath now, shall save us: that is to say, without baptism, without the believe that our saviour christ is come, or hath suffered death, or hath risen again, or hath ascendeth to heaven, of the which they believe not so much as any one. judge now thyself, whether this be false logic, or true sophistry: ye rather the very faith or abominable heresy: is it not a proper argument which can so try our duty in every article, from one to an other, that without apparel we may leave our believe of them all together? for surely and without any doubt, look how much it maketh again this article, which he would overthrow if he might. Even so much it maketh not only again many more directly, but also again them all together consequently. If it make no thing again all, without fail no more doth it again this one. for any thing again this/ and so much again all: nothnng again all/ and as little again this. Therefore where he boasteth himself to prove his purpose, other by the authority of scripture, or by the authority of old holy doctors, or else by natural reason, so good plenty he had provided thereof, that for to maintain withal, this part of his intent/ trust me truly, he hath no whit more of any of them three, than thou haste hitherto rehearsed unto me thyself. The which what it is, I think it now, far from need to declare any further. All the rest of his babbling beside, be thou well assured, is none other, but of his own dreaming swasyons and similitudes. whose nature is never to prove any thing, when they proceed of reason & truth/ much less therefore, when they spring out of blind error and falsehood. wherefore to spend any time about them, it were but clean lost: saying he hath in deed so little of these things, by the which he trusted most to defend himself/ and yet also that found other false, or falshely taken and miss understand/ and in no case, can make for his purpose. The xix chap. Here. Sir me think ye do this intend to cease and make an end? Ca whereof? He. Of this matter which ye have been about all this while? Ca why not? He. Nay sir not so. For Fryth would not call it the very foundation of all his matter, if he had not somewhat else, to make for him then all this that ye speak of, all though ye would not be acknown of it. Ca I pray the what is that. He. No less than an other saying of s. austin, which maketh as well for him, as any thing that ye hard yet. Ca I think the same and all one. He. Nay sir I mean that it maketh for him very well. Ca who would believe that knowing as thou hast hard before? He. That is no matter/ saint Austin's words he saith be these. As many as in that manna, did understand christ, did eat the same spiritual meat that we do. But as many as sought only to fill and satisfy their hunger with that manna, did eat and are ded. And like wise the same drink/ for the stone was christ. Ca what I pray the will Fryth make of this. He. Marry sir, Here you may gather/ he faith/ or ●aynt austeyn/ that the manna was unto them/ as the breed is to us. And like wise that the water was to them as the wine is to us. which anon shall appear more plainly. Ca How so? He. He doth allege that saint austin saith further these words. Moses' also did eat manna/ Aron and Phinees did eat of it/ and many other there, died eat of it, and are not ded: why so? Because they understood the wysyble meat spiritually. They were spiritually an hungered/ spiritually they tasted, that they might be spiritually satisfied. All they did eat the same spiritual meat, and all did drink the same spiritual drink utterly the same meet spiritually, but another corporally. Because they did eat manna/ and we an other thing/ but they the same spiritual meat that we do. And all they drank the same spiritual drink. They drank one thing, and we an other, but that was in respect of the visible thing, the which for all that, did signify all one and the same, in the spiritual strength. How drank they the same drink? of the spiritual stone following them, saith the apostle. For the stone was christ. Now sir all this doth Frith allege of saint austin. what say you to it. Ca This same I say to it. All this same difficulty, of this same point, after this same manner, is well put this same way, clear out of doubt. This same error, of this same fellow, made him of this same blindness, that he was of this same judgement, that this same word the same/ could none otherwise be understand, but even the same way, that he thought the same, should draw men, from the same faith, which all true christian people doth hold/ and bring them into the same heresy, which the same Fryth himself doth teach. And And all this same (I say) did he, by the reason of this same word/ the same: For as one in a maze, is he not now in the same path. where he began? And therefore even just, in the same case that he was than? is there any other cause, why he doth allege these words of saint austin, but that he saith they did eat and drink the same spiritual meat and drink that we do? For what if he had put in this word/ an other in the place of this word/ the same? or else had left them clean out both▪ He. Sir that had been an other matter: the text had then, been nothing for Frithes purpose, and therefore he would not alleged it/ if it had been so. Ca Thou sayest very truth and therefore all that seemeth any thing herein to make for him, thou mayst well perceive, doth only rest (as I say) in this same word/ the same. And haste thou not haerd enough, what a proper principle it is, being undefyned, to prove or conclude any thing by? Nevertheless I would yet weet of Fryth, whether saint Austin did here mean, the same in deed, or the same in effect, which hath between them no small difference, as thou shalt hereafter more clearly perceive thyself. And therefore by cause he doth now here again, leave still the meaning of this same word/ the same/ so doubtful and in certain as he did before (the hole pith of his purpose consisting therein) Clere it is that nothing thereof can follow, nor certainly be proved by it: as thou thyself hast sufficiently seen & haerde all ready. Beside this/ a question he might all so be asked, of this word spiritual whether saint austin meant it to be referred/ only to the meat which he doth so call/ or also to the intent of them which did eat it: or more over to show sum difference, between our eating and theirs/ or else to show wherein, their eating agreed with ours. All this (I say) he might well be asked/ because it ought of necessity to be discussed, before any conclusion thereupon were attempted: howbeit it is no matter with Fryth, so that he may alway first conclude, what so ever he doth intend/ & afterward clean slip over the certitude of his principle at latter end. As though, where in deed, lieth no less than all: there were utterly no matter at all. Therefore while there be few, of whom this falsehood can be perceived: Small wonder it is, though many be quickly therewith deceived He asketh nothing more, of all his diligent readers/ then to beware of all those same sophisters/ which will make them perceive him, to be one of those warrears/ That are of all other, the chief spiritual murderars. Beware of sophistry, beware crieth he: yet one that useth it more, didst thou never set. And therefore of him, what a sophister find we. But one of the worst, that is possible to be: for immediately after those words of saint Austen he bringeth in the words of saint Beda, which in latin are even these. Uidete autem fide manente signa va●iata. This turned into english: is, thou knowest, none other to say. But behold the signs are changed, the faith abiding. The which Fryth doth english after this manner, saying. Behold that the signs are altered: and yet the faith abideth one. So that where saint Beda saith no more, but the faith abideth: cometh he & addeth unto it, this same word, one/ sayeing the faith abideth one: to the intent he might thereby make it sound, that saint Bede had meant, the faith abiding so, that it is all one and the same in every respect, without any difference, as it was before the incarnation. But how false that is, as Fryth doth take it/ thou hast hard thereof enough at large all ready. Therefore what a raynardes' point of him is this, so craftily (as who say) to drop in such a word, as might soon cause the holy man's mind to be otherwise taken, then ever he did mean? dyfferth it nothing to say, it abideth, and to say it abideth one? A man of four score years, so long abideth but yet so long he abideth not one, for he is one thing before ten or xii. years of age, the which he is not after xxiiii and an other at lxxx which he was not at xxx for first a young tender child increasing, and after a lusty man at his full strength: but at last, a feeble impotent person almost wytherd away/ and therefore in these caces he abideth not one but rather another & another, & so forth in many other like. This same word, one, Fryth doth not here put it to signify, as doth, one which is the first beginning of number/ but he doth put it to signify, none other than doth this same word/ the same/ And this same word/ the same/ seemeth all way (as I told the before that he both and would have it taken) to signify the same, without any manner of difference. As in very deed so doth it, in that respect only, whereof it is meant. But that missed and wrong taken (as no marvel why that very oft times it is so in deed) then doth it much deceive and nothing else. Therefore where he doth put in this same word, one, doubtless he might as well have put in, this same word the same: But that he would not do, lest by the reason thereof, it should be the sooner spied, that even only therein, doth rest all his hole presumption, of bringing his purpose to pass, because he is always so busy therewith, that every man may soon see, that he neither doth, nor yet can, claim any thing for him of saint austin, but only the word And therefore in the stead thereof, to colour the matter, as with some diversity, he would steel in, this word one/ to make another sound in men's cares, but yet none other signification in their minds: for trust me truly, he hath no manner of thing, of faint austin, or any other (which is none/ but only saint Beda in the words before rehearsed) that can so much as seem, to make any beak toward this part of his purpose, but only this same word the same/ catch it where he can: And that is the very cause why, that he cleaveth even so fast and earnestly unto it, where so ever he can find it. But where he can not, yet if he may, spy any corner of a sentence where it may but scant seem, to be suffered if it were put to it. In with it he goth at adventure, trusting thereby, to wring all the rest, to his own fond foolish and evil purpose. Therefore all though thou hast seen and hard enough, to know that this I do not feign. yet that it might more largely apere, let me hear somewhat of his own mind, what he saith to these foresaid authorities himself. The xxx chap. Hereticus Sir that shall ye do/ for consequently in that same .v. lief these be his words. 〈◊〉 these places/ he saith/ you may plainly perceive/ not only that it is none article necessary to be believed under pain of damnation/ saying the old fathers never believed it/ and yet did eat christ in faith/ both before they had the manna/ & more expressly through the manna. And with no less fruit after the manna was ceased. And albeit the manna was to them as the sacrament is to us/ and they eat even the same spiritual meat that we do/ yet were they never so mad/ a● to believe/ that the manna was changed into cri●tes own natural body: but understood it spiritually/ that as the outward man did eat the material manna which comforted the body: so did the inward man thorongh faith eat the body of christ/ believing that as the manna came down from heaven and comforted their bodies: so should their saviour christ/ which was promised them of god the father/ come down from heaven and strength their souls in everlasting life/ redeeming them from their sin by his death and resurrection. And likewise do we eat christ in faith both before we come to the sacrament/ and more expressly through the sacrament. And with no less fruit after we have received the sacrament and need no more to make it his natural body than the manna was/ but might much better understand it spiritually/ that as the outward man doth eat the natural breed which comforteth the body/ so doth the inward man through faith eat the body of christ/ believing that as the breed is broken/ so was Christ's body broken on the cross for our sins/ which comforteth our souls unto life everlasting. And as that faith did save them/ without believing that the manna wall altered into his body: even so doth the faith save us. All though we believe not/ that the substance of breed is turned into his natural body. For the same faith shall save us which saved them. And we are bound to believe no more under pain of damnation/ than they were bound to believe. Now sir this is part of his mind. Ca Thou sayest even trawth. And therefore if thou mark it well (sum what after his own words) of these places thou mayest plainly perceive, not only by the presence of this word/ not only/ but also by the absence of this word/ but also/ that he at the first, intended to show us two things. The tone of the which, noted with this word not only/ he hath here (as thou seest) declared all ready. But the other depending thereupon/ and aught to be noted with this word/ but also He doth utterly pass over & clean let it go. For he runneth so wonders fast, and can not tell hother/ that he forgetteth tone end of his tale while he telleth us the t'other: or else he doth purposely reserve, & keep it in store/ till he speak with us himself, to show that and more He. Tush sir ye do but mock him now. Ca why cuntreyman, what wouldest thou have me do? for to pit him, thou knowest well, it is to late: To praise him there is utterly no cause. To hold my peace in this matter, were to far again conscience. And what remaineth but alway so to speak as he doth minister occasion? Therefore where he saith, that the old fathers were never so mad, as to believe that the manna was changed into christs own natural body/ for what purpose doth he tell us that, when every man knoweth it as well as he (All though no good man would express it in such terms, considering what persons they were) for that they did not so believe, there is no man doubteth therein, when it was never so said unto them nor commanded that they should so do: And a very good cause why. when there was then, no such thing in deed: for the blessed body of our saviour christ in those days was not. As Fryth I suppose will not deny/ but that now in very deed it is. And also said of his own most holy mouth, to be in the sacrament to/ wherefore herein, there is no more to say/ but (as it appeareth plain) that all those which believe, that the substance of the breed, by the virtue of the holy consecration, is turned into the very body of christ. Fryth doth note and acounts to be mad in so doing. That is to wite. All englishmen/ welshmen/ e●yshmen Frenshmen, scoties, deigns, ●●uch men, spayniardes, portyngals, Italians, with all other true christian nations. For doubtless all those doth so believe. He. Nay sir not all: for all, can not be said, of englishmen only: nor yet of divers other particular nations beside: for some among them, bylevethe other wise. Ca And well spoken: as who say, there is no horse, that may be said all white, because he is not without sum black/ under the tail. He. Sir in good faith that is but a scornful example. Ca yet it is to this purpose somewhat agreeable, & meet enough, for thine objection. Howbeit somewhat better to content the withal, it is said amiss, that such & such fields be full of corn, by cause they are not each of them without some and to much 〈◊〉 among it? what if there be such heretics sum & to many, as Fryth was, among englishmen, & other true christian nations beside? doth that let the truth of this/ that all those nations believe the very substance of the breed (through the holy consecration) to be turned into the very blessed body of christ? All those multitudes (thou seest) he doth reckon therein to be mad. He doth not except all, or any, true christian princes. About whom there lacketh not men, in wit gravity & learning, of the best sort that may be had. which seem not of all men, to be lightly deceived. where of in this matter specially, they are utterly most loath: doth the sadness therefore of Fryth, show us madness in all christian princes/ in all their prudent and wise counsellars/ and in all their multitudes of people's innumerable under them, or else doth the sadness of all those, show us the madness of him? I require no answer of this, but consider it well with thyself. Therefore what is there more in all his words, which thou hast now rehearsed, but only his own swasyons: and (as I told the before) his dull dancing still, about this same word/ the same/ wherewith thou seest/ he would conclude, what so ever he babbleth before? Nevertheless forth he goeth showing us, after his fantasy, how the old fathers did believe, saying at the last. There is no point in our crede/ but they believed it as we do/ and those articles only are necessary unto salvation. whereof it must needs follow, that without apparel of damnation (we may deny all sacraments/ for in which of those articles are they) we may deny that our saviour washed the feet of his disciples. (And then make we the gospel not true) we may also deny that it is damnable to pervert the seyenges of saint Poule, and other scriptures (all although saint Peter saith the contrary) And to be short, 2. Pe●… we may deny all the hole scripture, those xii articles of our creed excepted, which he saith, are only necessari unto salvation: for what so ever is not necessari to salvation, may be on believed without any danger of damnation. This doth he somewhat more plainly declare, forth with himself, saying these words. But the other points contained in scripture although they be undoubted verities. yet may I be saved without them. what is this same, saved without them, but saved without the believe of them. That is to say, all though they be true. yet I need not believe them. Therefore when he noteth, all christen princes, & all christian people to be mad, for their believe, which they have in the blessed sacrament. How much may we note him, more than mad, that will believe and so say, that he may be saved, without the believe of all or any verities contained in scripture beside those same xii expressed in the creed? He. Sir perchance in those same xii are contained all the rest. Ca Rest thou countryman there upon/ and I ask no more. For then say I, as it is in deed/ that this same verity which he denieth, is one of them. and the old fathers believed it, by the reason it was contained in their faith confusely, as many other were to be revealed and brought to light dystinctely, by the very coming of our saviour christ himself. But Frith was ware of this well enough And therefore to be sure, that men should not take him so to mean, as thou supposest (for then were his mouth soon stopped) he doth apertly express the contrary (as I told thee) in these words. But the other points/ he saith/ contained in scripture all though they be undoubted verities/ yet may I be saved without them. I have not hard of such a doctor that will not deny, but all the parts of scripture which be thousands, are verities. And yet will hold that we are not bound to the believe of any more than xii I could never hear of any verity of the scripture (as there be in it none other) but who so ever would not believe it, he was utterly therein an heretic. But this man is, and so teacheth other to be, at liberti with them all xii except. He. It may so be, well enough in certain cases. Ca why? what cases I pray the. He. He doth forth with declare ii or three himself. Ca which are they? let me hear them. He. They be even these. As be it in case/ he saith/ that I never hard of the●. There is one. Or when I hear of them/ I can not understand them/ nor comprehend them. There is another. We that I hear them and understand them/ and yet by the reason of an other text mysconstrew them/ as the bohumes do the words of christ in the vi chapter of Achun. There is the third. Ca A, be these the cases/ wherein men be not bound to believe any verities of scripture more than those xii expressed in the creed? He. So saith he. Ca Then there is no more to say, but if thou mark it well/ in his first case and the second, he doth put, whether he hear them, or not hear them. And in the second case, and the third, whether he understand them, or not understand them: So that he these cases doth not put, but in every case to avoid, & clean exclude the need of all the verities of scripture save only xii For when he saith he may be saved without them, where he hear them or hear them not, whether he understand them, or understand them not. And therefore, whether he believe them, or believe them not. what need maketh he of them, but meaneth away with it in every condition? For if he may be saved without them (as he saith he may) than it is clear, that he hath no need of them to that purpose. if he have no need of them to the purpose Doubtless he hath no need to believe them (for the believe of things, can never be of more necessity than the things be of themself) therefore if he need not believe them: in very deed, he hath less need to understand them (for more necessary is believe, then is understanding in things of our faith) and therefore if he need not believe them, nor understand them/ plain it is, that he needeth not so much as hear them (for what should he hear that he needeth not believe) if he n●…th not so much as hear them, he hath utterly no need of them at all: if he have of them no need at all/ then be they (as he would make them in deed) no parts of the faith: except he will say (as he doth so mich as it cometh to) that all the most part of the faith need not be heard/ and consequently, nor believed neither. Thus are we clearly discharged of all the verities of scripture save xii in every condition/ while we have no manner of need of any of them/ whereof springeth an other pretty question why they were written? But how so ever this devilish doctrine behaveth itself. what other thing is the faith of christ, but all the verities of scripture/ say he what he will? And contrary wise, what other thing are all the verities of scripture, but the faith of christ? Therefore when all the verities of scripture, are contained in the faith of christ/ as it is one of them so to believe. And the faith of christ (as I showed that before) can not be truly had, but all hole together. It must needs follow, that who so ever hath the faith of christ, hath also no less than all the verities of scripture. Falls therefore is the doctrine of Frith that saith, we may he saved without them all, save xii when the faith can not be truly had, without them all. Moreover how sayest thou to this? is it not a necessary verity unto salvation, to believe that the commandments of god are good & aught to be kept? He. Sir what question is that/ there is no man doth doubt therein. Ca And is there any apparel in it, if a man do not so believe it? He. In very deed no less than damnable. Ca Take heed perchance thou wottest near what thou sayest. He. why what? Ca Utterly that Frith is a false liar. when he saith those artycls of our creed, are only necessary unto salvation: for which is it of those xii to believe that the commandments of god be good, and aught to be observed & kept? or that there is any apparel in it, if we do not so believe? Those xii only be necessary saith he. This verity thou seest is none of them (although, as all other, it may be reduced unto them/ the which he will none of in any case, lest that, which he laboureth to overthrow, should so by the means be brought in like wise) after his mind therefore without this, we may be saved. That is to wit, without the believe, that the commandments of god, be good or aught to be observed and kept. who will not see, that this were enough, to declare what a teacher he is? or who hath so dull a wit, that he can not perceive, what his purpose is/ and it were but by this, that he can find no way to come to it, but only by such devilish paths as this is? Behold how fain he would prove it no need, so to believe in the blessed sacrament of thethiop, as doth all true christian people. In very deed so fain, that, to bring it to pass withal/ he sticketh not here (as thou seest thyself) to leave us clean without the need of any and all the verities of holy scripture, more than bore xii: for in those xii verities of our creed, he thought surely, that this verity of the blessed sacrament could not be found And therefore he doth say, that they only are necessary unto salvation, to th'intent he might utterly thereby exclude the need of this: the which he would so clean put away, that even for that cause, he excludeth no less, than all the rest, saying. The other points contained in scripture/ all though they be undoubted verities/ yet may I be saved without them. And this he declareth in every condition/ that is to say, whether he believe them or not/ where he understand them or not. And whether he misconstrue them or not. All those I say/ saith he/ may be done without any jeopardy of salvation. The xxxi chap. Hereticus. YE but sir ye must take his conclusion withal. Ca what is that He. Marry this. Therefore we believe/ he faith/ these articles of our crede/ in the other is no apparel/ so that we have a probable reason to dissent from them. Ca Doubtless a conclusion even like himself. How be it I muse not so much thereat, nor yet at him neither, as I do even at the. He. At me why so? Ca without fail because thou dost no more wonder at his blind madness, or mad blindness chose the whether. How be it I do partly consider the cause, for surely if thou thyself were not by him, somewhat cumbe●d with the same cloud of darkness, wherein he was thus involved and wrapped himself, thou shouldest easily. beside his wily wickedness, perceive him tumbled in to the greatest foolishness, that ever thou sawest any man: For when he saith, in the other is no pacell, so that we have a probable reason to dissent from them. O foolish Frith, what if we have none, how then? for how is it possible to have any probable reason, to dissent from any verities, most specially and above all, from any verities of holy scripture? for what reason is there probable in deed, but only that, which is true in deed? and can any one truth be again an other? Therefore if thou mark this matter well/ thou shalt find, that by these words, he setteth us even as myth at liberty, with our faith in all these xii verities of our creed to, as he doth in all the other: For in them is no apparel neither, so that we have a probable reason to dissent from them. He. why sir, we may not dissent from them in any wise. Ca what not with a probable reason? what thing is there, that a probable reason, doth not bind me to do? A probable reason is ever more true: and shall not truth lead me to and fro in every condition? He. ye but there can be no such probable reason, to lead us from those verities of our creed. Ca why not from them, as well as from the other? be they more truer, than any of the other? Howbeit thou speakest this of thine own head. Frith saith not so/ he hath no such thing/ I must follow his words: he saith we may dissent from all the verities of scripture save xii so that we have a probable reason thereto. And I say the same of those xii also/ if we have a probable reason thereto. what ought I to refrain, which a probable reason will lead me to? Am I not always bound unto truth? what other thing is a probable reason? Therefore in these verities of our creed, is no apparel so that we have a probable reason, to dissent from them. Thus taketh he from us, the need of all the verities of scripture save xii which he doth except in words/ but utterly not in deed. He. yes sir for else he would not say We believe these articles of over creed, in the other is no apparel etc. And also a little before. For them am I bound to believe. and am dampened without excuse. if I believe them not. but in the other points contained in scripture. etc. Ca what of all this? thou thinkest by the reason of these words, that he goth about to make us believe, that we be bound to the verities of our creed. He. what else? for what purpose shosde he speak it/ but for that? or to show us, how he doth believe them himself? Ca I thought even as much, when he intendeth none of them both: for his purpose is not to make us believe them/ but only to make us believe no more, but them: for, to go about to make us believe so much, is one thing/ and to go about, to make us believe no more/ is an other thing. Therefore his intent is (as who say) there to stop in our faith, that it should no farther/ and not to bring it thither, or there to uphold it: For all though his blindness be so great, and manifest, that even the very same, which he laboureth to improve, he confesseth himself, to be a verity of scripture (or else would he never call it an article of our faith, as in the xvi leaf of his book he doth in deed, saying these words. For though it be an article of our faith. yet it is not an article of our creed in the xii articles/ which are sufficient for our salvation: All though his blindness (I say) be so great that himself doth confess this a verity of scripture, which he laboureth to improve. yet because he thought it could not be found (as I said) among the xii verities of our creed. even therefore would the catchepoule, as it were in a pinfold pin up therein our faith, from all the verities of scripture beside/ and all to th'intent it should not come at this, for the special grudge he beareth unto it: Oh, there I was a little to large: for why should I say, that he beareth a special grudge again this blessed verity, when he serveth them all a like? yet am I herein somewhat to rash to: for why should I say that he serveth them all a like, when he would slay those for this/ But this for itself. not much unlike him, which for the malice he bore again one innocent, slew an hole multitude. But as he missed his purpose of the one, whom he principally intended. And (to his own perdition) was but a mean of bringing all the residue to a clerar light. Even so I doubt not of this Herod like wise, but that he shall miss his purpose of this one verity, which to destroy he doth chiefly intend/ and also in the multitude beside, although to his own perdition/ yet be but a mean of bringing them to a more clear light of knowledge in many one. That Herod and this, persecutors both/ & both of christ, wherein they 'gree/ but in the manner of their persecution somewhat they differ: for that Herod did persecute him directly and apertly/ but this he road, under and with the pretence, of the contrary. That herod, sent men to find him where he was not/ but this Herod sendeth men to lose him, where he is: Also he, to make him be taken/ but this, to make him forsaken: he with very cursedness/ but this, with very falls holiness. Therefore, what so ever this new herod doth say, as touching our creed. Never think, that he speaketh it, to have us believe so much as that: nor yet to show, that he believeth it himself (for though he say so, he speaketh it not for the cause) but (as I said) he intendeth only to make us believe no more: for less he thought he could not. And therefore he supposing, that to be sufficient (if he might keep us therein) to exclude this verity of the blessed sacrament, attempteth us no further directly. But yet by mean he teacheth us away, to forego that to: for when he dischargeth us of our faith in all the verities of scripture, save those xii of our crede/ he doth it by such a rule as leadeth us even like wise from them to: when he saith. In the other is no apparel/ so that we have a probable reason to dissent from them. This probable reason (as I have told thee) is able to discharge us of all manner of things, none except wherein so ever we may have it/ and therefore of all the articles of our creed, as well as of any other verities of scripture beside. The xxxii chapi. Here. A Sir, I do now perceive, that all this while, ye take a probable reason far otherwise than Frith doth mean it. Ca Ha, what sayest thou? I pray the tell me that tale again. He. Marry sir I say fyrth doth not here, so mean a probable reason, as you do take it. Ca Trowest thou so? He. No truly/ and that a man may perceive. Ca How then? He. ye know well enough, that there be taken two manner of probable reasons: for all though there be but one, which is the very chief/ and hath in it the very truth in deed. yet is there an other, which is called a probable reason to/ not because it hath in it, such a truth as the t'other hath, but because it is so like and apparent, that it is very hard to avoid. Ca Now in good faith countryman it is very well espied: & dost thou think in deed, that this latter probation is it, which frith doth mean? He. ye truly, that do I: for it can stand with no reason, that he should mean the t'other/ because (as I now perceive myself) one very truth can never lead us to dissent from any other/ but rather bind us to it. Ca Doubtless therein thou hittest the nail upon the heed. And therefore it is utterly no more to say, but this. In the other is no apparel so that we have a probable reason to dissent from them. Not that probable reason, which hath in it the very truth in deed. but that, which is but only apparent/ and doth but only so seem to have: wherefore what so ever doth but only seem to be true: without fail is not true in deed: and what so ever is not true in deed/ is utterly but a craft or a wyell, which is ever deceivable. And therefore the very conclusion is this. In the other is no apparel/ so that we have any wily & crafty colour, or any deceivable conveyance, to dissent from them. He. tush he never meant so neither I am sure. Catho. what neither tone way nor other? wilt thou have him speak of a probable reason, and mean it neither true nor false? that can not be/ except it be said (as of many one it is when he speaketh he woth near what) his wit is not his own. Therefore if he mean it true/ then it is even this. In the other is no apparel, so that we have that probable reason to dissent from them/ which is impossible to be had. And at the jest, how foolish is he, to suppose unto us any such case? Therefore if he mean it but apparent, and not true in deed/ then it is this. In the other is no apparel, so that we have that probable reason, to dissent from them/ which is such, and so easy to be had, that all we ought, to bless us from it. He. Bless us from it? what need that? Ca Needeth it not troest thou, to bless us from that reason, which might lead us to dissent from any verity of scripture? for what is the scripture but gods word? Therefore what is any verity of scripture, but the verity of gods word? And what reason is that, which leadeth one to dissent from any verity of gods word/ but only the very falsite of the devils word? yet herein, saith Frith, there is no apparel. This thou seest plainly, he moveth us unto: with a probable reason/ he saith/ we may with out any apparel, dissent from all the verities of gods word, save xii Doth he except those xii as he thinketh in deed/ or else for fear that he dare none otherwise do? if he do it, but for fear/ thou knowest then, what he is well enough. if he do, as he thinketh, how blind is he, that can not see, what so ever may lead a man to dissent from one verity of gods word, may likewise lead him from an other, and an other, and so from them all together Therefore while Fryth doth here plainly show us a way to dissent from the verities of holy scripture which is the word of god/ what other thing therein doth he, but utterly show us the word of the devil? Howbeit herein doubtless he teacheth us no worse than a special point and an high mystery, of his own faculty: for without question, by this probable reason, found he the means to dissent and come away from the verities of holy scripture himself/ or else without fail he had bid in them still. By this also, riseth ever the first heretic. By this, deceiveth he an other/ by this genderth they more & more/ by this of times grow they to a multitude/ by this, they continue to the dysquyetnesse of the faithful flock of christ: Also by this reason. which is but apparent probable/ which seemeth just and is not, which promiseth the truth and payeth falsehood/ which showeth itself one, & is an other. By this (I say) those heretics enticed, persuaded and led, entice persuade and lead, from the verities of scripture, from the verities of gods words, from the verities of life everlasting. By this, they cry to the people, beware of deceivers, beware of false teachers beware of subtle sophisters. And what other thing do they therein in deed, but invite the people to beware of them: the which I would to god the people could so understand/ as thou mayest easily do here of frith, if any spark of light remain in the at all. Therefore let us now return to his third case again briefly to see what we left therein behind/ he saith. Or/ be it in case/ that I hear them and understand them/ and yet by the reason of an other text mysconstrew them/ as the bohemes do the words of christ in the vi chapter of Iohn. Here he maketh his ensample of this, that the Bohemes (as he saith) doth understand the words of our saviour christ, in the vi chapter of saint Iohn, and yet misconstrue them for all that, by the reason of an other text. This is according and even like unto his case. And therefore if ever thou hast hard such a brain/ be judge thyself. For how is it possible for any man, to misconstrue the same thing, which he doth understand? it is one thing to understand, & an other to know? is any man therefore able to take a thing otherwise, than he knoweth it is? doth not the knowledge or understanding of a thing, clean put away the misconstruing thereof? what is misconstruing, but misunderstanding? for misunderstanding or misconstruing, doth, nor can never chance, but only for lack of knowledge and understanding: or else will he join them together this way/ that when he understandeth any verity of scripture/ yet he can purposely, by the reason of an other text, misconstrue it nevertheless, to deceive other withal. But than might he leave out this same/ by the reason of an other text/ without the which or any other occasion beside, he can do it even as well of his own mind only, as it shall hereafter appear plain, that in very deed, I never see him do otherwise. Therefore all though thou mayest this perceive, the great profundity of his wit and learning both. notwithstanding I do not yet discommend the just agreement, that is between his case & his example. For doubtless impossible is the tone and even so is the t'other. And therefore no less than a very lie, is the tone in case/ and even full as much is the t'other in deed. But now to return/ he saith/ to our purpose/ if we will examen the authorities of saint Austen and Beda before alleged/ we shall espy/ that beside the probation of this foresaid proposition they open the mystery of all our matter/ to them that have even to see (those he meaneth which are as blind as he) For saint Austen saith/ that we and the old fathers do differ as touching the bodily meat/ for they eat manna and we breed. Now cuntreman, because thou didst after him recyt the words of saint austin unto me thyself. I pray the heartily therefore remember them well, and tell me truly, whether saint austin spoke so much as any one word of breed, as this fellow reporteth him. He. Sir therein to confess the truth, saint Austen saith, that the fathers died eat manna, and we an other thing. But in deed he hath not this same word breed. Ca Thou mayest see therefore, what a just expositor gentle Frith is: He thought this word bred/ would sound somewhat more for his purpose, than this word another thing/ which in deed soundeth toward it nothing at all. And therefore in the stead thereof, in with breed he cometh, but not by & by immedyately after he/ rehersyth the words of saint austin/ but at length long after: For had he brought it in straight way, while the words of saint austin were fresh in the mind of the reader, he wist well enough, it would then be soon perceived, and taken, not like a point of falsehood, but for very one and the self same in deed. And therefore he falleth first into a long babbling of his own invention (such as here I have partly declared unto thee) And then afterward when he supposeth the words of saint austin somewhat groune out of remembrance with the reader in cometh the baker with his breed, where no man looketh after it where no man will eat it, where no man speaketh any word of it. And therefore in few words by mine assent, he shall for his about be this content: what so ever men say, or herein will think/ to take his bred with him, and go ere he drink: for yet hard I never, nor no man else I suppose, that this word/ an other, or an other thing/ might be exponed by this word, bred/ afore now: having none other circumstance, to lead a man to it, then there is. Howbeit, by this mean, it is brought to pass/ saint austin by this word/ an other thing/ doth mean the holy sacrament. And the sacrament, Frith doth mean to be very bred/ by the reason whereof, he doth expone this word/ an other thing/ to signify bred. whereby thou mayst plainly perceive, that he exponeth saint Austin's words, not after saint Austin's meaning: but only after his own, as he himself doth take it/ & not as saint austin doth mean it: And what kind of exposition is this? if I expone thy words after my mind, and not after thine/ make I a true exposition or a false? He. That is to plain, to be asked. Ca Seest thou not therefore (as I said) what an expositor Frith is? if thou say, that he doth not here expoude saint austin, but allege him, in this word/ breed/ then doth he allege him falsely. For saint austin thou seest speaketh hear no such word. if thou say, that he doth not allege him in this word bred, but therewith expone him/ then false is his exposition, because he followeth not the mind of his author. For could not saint austin himself have put in this word/ bred/ as well as this word/ an other thing/ if he had so meant, or had not seen some cause to the contrary? was his mind so occupied, that he thought not upon that, which was most present ready and apt to be thought on? or could he not call the word to remembrance? because both it, and also the thing that it signifieth, was so strange & far out of use? he sticketh not at manna, but expresseth it with the proper name of it directly: why stayeth he at this, more than at that? why doth he touch this, with no proper name, but with a word common and indifferent, in manner to all things? would he refrain so ready a thing, and see no cause why? if he saw any, what was it? Frith will not put this in disputation unto us: he would not hear of it/ he had liefer have us forget it: it maketh not for his purpose as it shall well appear hereafter. He. yet sir in some other places saint Austen himself doth call it breed directly. Ca why therefore doth Frith, allege him so here where he doth not so call it/ & will not allege him there, where he doth call it so? what meaneth he thereby? doth it signify nothing? I will well, that saint austin so doth call it/ and that divers times: but yet never without such a certain convenient circumstance with all, as declareth what he meaneth therein: the which circumstance, Fryth perceiveth to make no less again him/ Then the word breed, seemeth to sound with him. And therefore because the word and the circumstance, he can not find asunder/ he himself would prick in the tone, in some other corner: as thou seest him here, this craftily assay/ where he doth think, the circumstance is away. And this is the very thing I may truly say to thee, which openeth the mystery of all his matter, to them that have eyen to see. wherefore take this for a general rule, that when so ever thou thinkest him to bring in any authority/ yet if he understand it, after this fashion. He bringeth for him in deed, even none at all/ but only pretend that he doth, and under the colour thereof, bringeth no more but his own bare mind alone, as I will now promise the before, thou shalt evidently see him, none other wise do hereafter. The xxxiii Chapi. Catho. YE but yet sir your communication doth (me think) much to this directly sound/ that frith, even very purposely went about to deceive Howbeit there is I suppose, no man living, of any conscience at all, which can believe that ever he, or any other, would be so unhappy, to play the prank, in a matter so great: for what other thing were it so to do, but even wilfully to damn himself? To deceive, and deceive purposely is two things/ for one may sometime chance to deceive & yet be not aware of it. Ca Trauth it is: howbeit thou must yet consider this/ that the falsehood of his opinion, which he would men should believe/ is one thing: but the way that he taketh, to make it credible/ that is to wit, his process or treats, and all his handling thereof/ is an other thing. Because the tone is for the t'other/ and therefore must they needs be divers: wherefore as touching the first/ that is the falsehood of his opinion/ he was perchance not ware of that, but took it for true. And although he went about to derceyve, yet peradventure not wittingly therein. But as concerning the other part, that is to wit, his hole process, all his disputation & handling of the matter, to bring it in credence withal. It is not possible but he must needs beware of that: for it was his own studious act, and voluntary labour, purposed for the nonest (or else, thou knowest thyself, it had never been written. And than had he never left the book behind him) Therefore because all this, was and is, none other but a certain conveyance of him devised, to bring his opinion into men's believe. And because his opinion (by this mean conveyed) in deed is none other but utterly falls. It must needs follow, that all this mean is none other, but even a conveyance of falsehood. And is a conveyance of falsehood, any other thing but a falls conveyance? And what other thing, is a false conveyance but utterly very falsehood itself? He. why sir, by this reason, all that ever he doth is false. Ca Never doubt therein/ for what so ever truth, is once brought to verify falsehood with all/ doubtless is even therein falsified itself/ because, if it were not thereto brought, with a false sense/ it would utterly destroy falsehood, & not uphold it/ it would make it open and manifest, and never colour, nor hide it. Therefore while this falsehood, that is to wit/ his false conveyance (which he purposely, wittingly, and warly, wrought & provided to verify the falsehood of his opinion withal) could not be hid from him, being his own proper and voluntary act, studiously laboured (as I said) for thou nonest. Thou canst by no reason, excuse him, but at lest in this, he went even purposely about to deceive men/ except thou wilt say, that what so ever he wrote, he did it, as a man in a trance unwares, without any intent or purpose why. And then must thou needs, ascribe and impute the wilful purpose, cause and intent thereof, (without the which it could never be done) to some cursed occult and wicked sprit, by whom he was led therein, as an ignorant instrument. He. what led with some wicked spirit? nay sir not so. Ca I would thou were able well to avoid it. He. That can I soon do. Ca which way. He. Even this/ suppose that his opinion were false, as ye say that it is. Ca why art thou but at the supposition thereof yet, so much as thou hast hard of it? He. Tush that is no matter. Ca yes it is a matter, and that a lamentable/ how so ever thou takest it. Howbeit I do not greattly marvel thereat, knowing therein as I know. He. why what know ye therein? Ca Forth with that thou hast in hand. I will tell the hereafter. He. Marry sir, suppose (I say) that his opinion were false (as ye say it is) for the which it would follow, that all his hole process & conveyance thereof, to make it credible withal were false to, by the reason of the same. yet as he is well ware, what his opinion is, but not that it is false. Even so is he well were to, what his process and all his conveyance thereof is: but not that it is the conveyance of any falsehood/ when, so far as he is ware of, there is in deed none such. For as he thinketh his opinion is true. Even so he thinketh is all that ever he doth to prove it by. And therefore he teacheth no falsehood wittingly. The xxxiiii chap. Catho. Thou speakest well for him. But yet therefore I pray thee, how cometh this to pass? that one having not half the wit or learning, that he was thought to have before he fell to these foolish fond and erroneous opinions/ can soon perceive so much folly and falsehood in his book, that there is in manner no lief without, & yet he himself, could see thereof none at all? How (I say) cometh this to pass? May we not think, that he met with the faculty, which causeth a man (as they say) The longer he liveth the more fool he weareth? That is to say the more he taketh of it the less wit he hath: for if he saw any falsehood therein, then went he wittingly about to deceive: if he saw none, where is so much/ what bitter smoke so trombled his eyes, that he could not espy some part of it? was he not taken troest thou in to the tuition, of some dark tutor, which (for all thy saying) caused him therein to wander, he wist near where? how might we think otherwise, if we with diligence perpend well the matter? For the very truth to say, if the devil himself, were at the liberty, to be incarnate/ and even so to come among us, only to entice and lead us from any article of our faith. Let me see, ymagyon thyself, how it were possible, for that father & fountain of all crafty falsehood, to invent for that purpose any manner of wyell, comparable to this, which we find in frith. That is to wit, to hear us in hand, it is indifferent, and at our own liberty, to believe it or not, there is no apparel in the matter, take which part we list: for how many true men is there in this world, touched with never so little a need/ that might not soon, be brought to steling, if they were borne in hand, and so persuaded to think in deed, that it were an act indifferent, & without all manner of apparel to them that would use it? ye what manner of evils are they, which men, now full honest, would then forbear and refrain, wherein if they thought, were to them no danger? Or which way might they so easily be led unto them, as to be stiffly so borne in hand? ye make them but once believe that, & lead them no fardyr: for it shall then be no need at all: a marvelous zeal of justice hath he, that would not soon, play the thyfe at a companions request/ if he were once brought in opinion, that therein could be, to him no manner of apparel: thus learned Fryth/ of whom so ever he was taught/ that he had a wonders fast faith in this blessed sacrament, which would not soon be content to leave it, if he were once brought in opinion, that therein could come unto him no hurt: he saw it a matter of most difficult to bring christen people from that faith direcly: but he saw it again a matter as easy if they might once be made believe no apparel therein, if they so did: fulwell he wist, bring them once to that opinion, and let them then alone themself, it should be enough, with the help of his own dark doctor which taught him this lesson: for doubtless, from whence it came, the properties thereof themself, doth apertly show/ as much as the most exceeding wiliness, falsehood and foolishness that may be, is able to do: of the wiliness, (whereof we now speak) what should I say? but mark it well, with deliberation indifferently, & be judge thyself, whether it doth not in thy consideration, so swell and increase that it waxeth in manner incomprehensible. Of the falsehood (about the opening whereof we have been almost all this while) all though no man be able sufficiently to express it. yet thereof so much haste the hard, as is far from the need, of any more: Of the foolishness, there is not else to be said/ but I am sure thou never hardest nor saw the like. For who (but he that dwelleth in so deep a doungeon of darkness, that he can see no manner of light) would make any manner of division in a matter: and yet plainly hold, that there is utterly no such matter to divide? For the tone part of his work (whereof now we have well tried enough to see what it is) is only to prove, that no man is bound to believe the blessed bodily presence of our saviour christ in the sacrament: but yet that every man without any apparel so may believe, if he will. And the other part/ as all his book doth clearly testify/ is to prove, that there is utterly no such thing in deed for to believe: whereof/ beside his high cunning division, of this indivisible nothing, after his own doctrine/ plain it is, that he teacheth us manifestly (god reward him as he knoweth best) even to have a false believe. when he saith we may believe, that himself doth say, is not: and yet himself will not believe, that he and we do say there is. For we say it is an article of our faith/ and even so saith he. Howbeit he holdeth it indifferent to believe it or not/ but yet so do not we. And for that cause he will not believe it one whit, till we do both agree. The which he hath brought so nigh the point, that now it will never be. And therefore will I tell the one thing more/ which I had clean forgotten before. Here. what was that? Ca another pretty cause why, that he/ as I showed thee/ so divideth all the other verities of scripture, from those xii in the cred He. what cause should that be? Ca In the last lief of his book his own words doth well declare, which be these. There are many verities/ he sayeth/ which yet may be no such articles of our faith He. Is this all? Ca Nay not so, but first, what articles meaneth he, by these no such? He. No such as be of our creed. Ca well said. And what verities doth he mean here, that may be no such articles. He. All the other verities of scripture. Ca Hear his words again, with those that followeth, and therein let them be judge There are/ faith he/ many verities. which yet may be no such articles of our faith. It is true that I lay in irons when I wroote this. howbeit I would not receive this truth for an article of our faith. for you may think the contrary without all jeopardy of damnation. Consider well now, this gear together. And thou mayst soon perceive, that this same ensample of his imprisonment, doth clearly show that he meaneth not here, by these same/ many verities/ any verities of scripture, but the verities indifferently of other things: which verities in general, with the verity of his imprisonment in special, he bringeth for ensample, how he would have us take all the verities of scripture: For as the verity of his imprisonment, may be no such article of our faith, as be those of our creed. Even so after the same manner, would he have all those other verities of scripture likewise (which th'ensample doth plainly teach) But the verity of his imprysonement, & all other like beside/ are not only none such, but utterly none articles at all in deed. The very same therefore is it, which he goeth about in all the verities of scripture/ scantly those except of the creed. Before, yet he left them as articles indifferent, but now will he have them none at all: or else all other as much as they: what wonder is it though he this divide them, as of an other kind, from the verities of the crede (saying we may be saved without them/ & therefore that we need not believe them) when they be with him, of no more estimation than be all such other verities beside as even for ensample, The styple of Paul's is higher than the cross in cheep? And because the verity thereof is none article of our faith, for all it is a verity in deed. Therefore no more be any or all the verities of holy scripture, save only those expressed in the crede: were not a man happy to meet with such a doctor to teach him his faith? Dost thou not perceive the mighty power & strength of this verity, which he would so fain overthrow, when thou seest it give him so scornful fauls, in every wyell that he attempteth again it? In all this, what doth he else, but make the verities of divine things & human things, heavenly things, & earthly things, everlasting things & temporal things/ equal even, & of no more worthiness or dignity, one than an other, when he will have us no more bound to believe, the tone than the t'other? For more I suppose is no man bound to the estimation of things, than he is bound, to the believe of them. It is true (he saith) that he lay in irons when he wrote this/ but yet would he not receive that truth, for an article of our faith. And doubtless yet went he than, more near about to make it one, than (as I suppose) he was ware of himself: For surely he brought it almost within one word of it. For had he put in, as the truth required, but this same word, whorthely, more than he did. And said, it is true, that I lay in irons worthily, when I wrote this. without fail it had been then so nigh an article of our faith, that who so ever were sufficiently instructed of the matter, could never think the contrary, without great jeopardy of damnation. For doubtless such as think him on worthy lie prisoned, knowing the cause, be of the same opinion that he was (god of his mercy grant them soon to amend it) for how damnable that opinion is, and it were but by these his reasons (as to some they seem) which we have discussed hitherto all ready, it may right well and sufficiently appear: how be it god willing, in the residue yet to come, it shall be then no doubt to the most effeccyonat friends, that ever therein he had: those only except, which got it by the very same mean, that he came by it himself. Therefore with this to pause & rest for the time, thou mayst plainly see, how his foundation (which not a little he boasteth so strong & invincible) now lieth all to shaak, toorne, and clean dispersed every stone from other/ except thou wilt say, that he made it of no such matter, but only of a dirty dunghill heap of cannell raking/ the which few men could find in their hearts so nigh it to come for stink, as once to give a sporne thereat. & therefore it lay so long in rest. Now countryman far well, till an othertyme The. xxxv. chap. Here. MArry sir a fair parting. Ca why what aileth it? He. what should it profit to tell you, if we shall leave it this? Ca There is no remedy: for I can tarry no longer now. He. Then sir when shall we meet together again? Ca Even when thou wilt thyself. He. That by my will, shall be no farther hens but even to morrow/ while this that I have hard to day, is somewhat fresh in remembrance. Ca I am well content. He. But where shall I meet with you. Ca In no place better than even here. He. what time? at after none? Ca Nay it is none after nonce works, I may say to thee, for the hole day long, I fere would be little enough. And therefore come by nine a clock at the fardyst. For thou never hardyst such a work of an hetetyke, sins thou were borne, as thou shalt hear I promise ye. He. what worse than I have hard to day? Ca Be judge thyself when thou hearest it. He. well sir I will not fail mine our/ for I shall now think long till it come. Ca God be with the therefore till then. He. Nay sir I will bring ye homeward. Ca No no it shall not need. He. yes sir I may not choose for half your way and mine is all one. Ca why then come on let us go together/ for so far. He. Then sir is it not yet as good we be talking in our way, for the while as aught else. Ca yes & I am very well pleased therewithal, if thou hast any thing to say. He. yes marry sir, that have I, & that is this, I would fain know, by what reason you can prove, that this same article, which we have been about all this while, is one of them, which we be bound of necessity to believe: ye have hitherto laboured to improve Fryth, for holding the contrary: but yet have you done utterly nothing to the probation of it yourselves/ for it is two things to prove Frith's opinion falls, and to prove your own true. Ca Trowest thou so? He. I think so. Ca well all though the probation of the truth, can not have his very apt and most convenient place, till the falsehood be clean refelled and thoroughly put away, and that in the hole, as it is now, but in the first part only. yet all void of thy request/ will I not leave thee, because I see that somewhat desirous to hear of the matter. And therefore while Frith's opinion is this, that it is an article but indifferent, and of no necessity for to be believed: and ours clean & directly the contrary. For the which the tone part or the t'other, must needs be true: it must therefore clearly follow, because the falsehood is found of his side plain, that utterly the truth remaineth with us. He. Nay sir that followeth not. For the falsehood that is found with Fryth, is in his probation, & not in the thing, which he goeth about to prove. For ye know right well, that a man may miss in the probation of a true thing sometime, yet is not the thing falls, because the probation is not true. Ca Thus mayst thou excuse every falsehood which any false harlot goeth about to prove true. For soon mayst thou say, all though he fail in his probation: yet is the thing true enough/ because a man may be deceived in the probation of a true thing: when in deed the falsehood of a thing, is oft times more than half disclosed/ even by the falsehood of the probation thereof, it being onhis perceived. Therefore although the manifest falsehood of Frith's probations, do not even very directly prove, the falsehood of his opinion. yet maketh it at the lest an inevitable conjecture thereof. And even therefore as much for the truth, of our side. For what doth this thing show, that all the reasons that he doth make, or is able to ymagyon for the purpose, doth not only not prove his intent, but also draw with them such audible consequences beside, as no good christian ear, will not exceedingly abhor to hear. what doth all this (I say) show, but that the mighty and invincible truth of the contrary part, will in no case suffer itself to be improved? Moreover what wilt thou say if Fryth do sufficiently prove our part himself. He. what sir it can never be, for all his hole purpose is utterly to the contrary. Ca yet mark him well/ for he intending in deed to prove the contrary, maketh never a reason, but that (as I have plainly declared unto thee) it runneth even utterly, as much again the necessity of any & every other article beside, as it doth again this, for the which he did purpose it. And that were not possible except this were one of of them, and of the self same nature that they be. For how should any of his reasons purposed again the necessity of this article only, touch the necessity of all or any other likewise/ more than they touch the light of the son, the heat of the fire, or the hardness of diamonds, and other like/ being no more purposed again those articles, than again these things/ but utterly because those articles, and this, again the which they were purposed by all one & of the self same nature. And these things, each of them clean of an other? For what so ever reason is purposed with or again any thing, so far doth it alway run, as the community of the nature of the thing doth extend, & no fardyr. As be it in case, that one would take upon him, to prove or improve, thy soul only to be immortal/ what so ever reason he should make with or again it/ without fail must needs run likewise to the souls of all men beside: and that were not possible, if that immortality were not commune between their souls and thine. And after the same manner/ thou cause why that Frith's reasons doth run as well again the necessity of all other articles, as it doth again this, for the which they were purposed, is utterly because the very same necessity is common between them and this/ for else, it were not possible, for those reasons purposed but only again this/ to make any thing again the necessity of those/ more then again (as I said) the light of the son, or any thing else beside: wherefore it must needs follow that this article is of as great necessity to be believed as any other And therefore where Fryth would have proved it indifferent & could not: he hath well proved it necessary and would not. Thou gettest no more now. He. yes sir I pray you tell me one thing more and then will I bid you farewell. Ca what is that? He. Marry sir I have red Frithes book, I ween as oft as ye have done yet could I never perceive in it this gear that ye have declared. And I marvel what should be the cause thereof. Catho. It is no marvel at all/ for doubtless if Fryth had no more virtue wit and learning in thine opinion/ than he had in his own head/ thou shouldest soon have perceived much more than I have told the. And that shalt thou find by experience if thou withdraw thine opinion from him. He. Trow ye so? Ca There is no doubt of it? He. well sir here is my way now, and therefore will I trouble you no longer at this tyme. Ca well then far well countryman till to morrow He. God be with you sir. Ca And with the to. He. At nine of the cloak ye say. Ca ye what else. He. I will not fail you. Finis. Here endeth the first book. printer's or publisher's device ¶ Dominus dedit dominus abstulit sicut domino placuit ita factum est.