A manifest DETECTION OF THE notable falsehood of that part of john Frithes book, which he calleth his foundation, And boasteth it to be invincible: newly set forth by John Gwinneth Clerk. ❧  
LONDINI. 1554.   

Capitulo. 1.  CATHOLICUS, 
Ah country man, thou art I perceive, a good riser in a morning, for I thought little to find thee here so soon.  HERETICUS, 
Sir, if you had slept this night no more than I did, ye would have been here perchance as soon as 1  CATH. 
why, thou seest I keep mine hour, and somewhat afore.  HERALD 
No sir, that I dare say ye do not. For eight of the clock was your hour. And now it is almost nine, or nine all together, if it be not more.  CATH. 
Not of any clock in London I am sure.  HERE. 
Nay then are ye well, if ye trust to the clocks of London.  CATH. 
Why not?  HERE. 
Ye know right well, they never agree together. And therefore we may be sure, they go not true.  CATH. 
Then be they wonderful like unto heretics: and nothing so evil to be trusted as they be: which do alway deceive, as the clocks do not. for there is few or none of the clockꝭ, but are sometime in truth, and so are theretics never, as thou mayest well perceive, by that I said yesterday, if thou bear it in mind.  HERE. 
Well sir, I pray you, let all that pass, and now to the purpose we come for.  CATH; 
Ye but first tell me how it chanced, that thou sleptest no better to night.  HERE. 
Shall I therein be plain?  CATH. 
What else?  HERE. 
In very deed it was even long of you.  CATH. 
Of me? how so?  HERE. 
Ye gave me such a banquet to bedward yesternight, at our parting, as hath not a little troubled my head ever sense.  CATH. 
What was that?  HERE. 
Even the same that ye said of mine old friend john Frith.  CATH. 
What said I of him?  HERE. 
Ye said he was as subtle, foolish, and false as ever was any man, that ye have red or heard of.  CATH. 
And callest thou that, a banquet to bedward?  HERE. 
I may so call it well enough. for it was and yet is unto me, a bitter banquet in deed.  CATH. 
Why so?  HERE. 
Ye will not think how much it grieveth me, to hear him so reported?  CATH. 
Then consider therewith again, how little it will grieve thee, to hear him so proved.  HERE. 
How little? Nay how much ye may say.  CATH. 
How much? thou wottest near what thou sayest. For wilt thou be more grieved, with the dew proof, then with th'only report of his falsehood, by whom thou art not a little deceived? when, for all the report, thou mayest yet remain, other in doubt, or clean out of credence thereof, and so be deceived still, where as by the dew proof, thou mayest be certain and sure, and no longer deceived, except thou wilt thyself. And therefore with the report, thou canst not be so much grieved, as with the dew proof thou oughtest to be glad and well pleased.  HERE. 
No sir not so. For although I do here my friend evil reported, yet because the report may chance to be false, it can not grieve so much, as the dew proof thereof, which doth assure me, that it is true. Wherefore the proof must needs be more grievous, than the report, if I take it right.  CATH. 
That is in respect of him, and not of thyself, that is to say, for his sake, and not for thine own. To be sorry for thy neighbour's falsehood, in that he should chance to be one of that sort, is very well done, whether thou have it by proof, or report other. But of the other side, as touching thin own part, to be sorry for that thou art by a dew proof brought to the knowledge thereof, were more than extreme foolishness: sith by that, thou canst take no manner of hurt, but rather the great commodity of escaping all such displeasure as might chance to ensue of the contrary. And therefore what other thing is it, not to be glad to know the falsehood of a deceiver, But even to be wilfully and worthily deceived, as many a one is? And therefore if thou be one of that sort, which are so grieved with the report of Frithes falsehood, that they can not be pleased with the dew proof thereof, it will be as hard for thee, as it is for them, to take any profit of the best probation that is thereof possible to be made: which unto them is far insufficient, and nothing worth.  HERE. 
Why so?  CATH. 
Because of their own obstinate wilfulness, Which is the direct enemy and greatest resister of all truth: and therefore most incurable of all evils: Wherefore if I wist, that thou were one of them in deed, I would even now bid the farewell, and talk no more with thee. For if I did, my labour were therein but lost.  HERE. 
Sir ye shall not find me a refuser of reason.  CATH. 
And thou shalt not find me an offerer of any other.  HERE. 
Then I marvel how ye will discharge yourself of this that ye say, Frith was so subtle, foolish, and false?  CA 
For that purpose I shall find matter enough, and it were but in that part of his work, which he doth call the foundation of his treatise, wherein he thinketh himself so strong and most sure.  HERE. 
What he saith therein, I remember very well. And therefore I will show you some part thereof.  CATH. 
No not yet, for I will make the first recital myself: And therein tell me, whether I do it truly or no.  HERE. 
And even so will I, by your leave.  CATH. 
I am well content with all.  HERE. 
Whether ye be or not, I will be so bold at this time.  CATH. 
I know it to be a part of thy profession, to lack no boldness.  HERE. 
I may be bold in my friends cause.   

Capitulo. 2.  CATH. 
Spare not, and therefore take heed, and hearken well to it. For in the preface, and first lief of his book, where he maketh mention of a brother of his (not a brother of consanguinity, but a brother of his religious fraternity) his own words be these.  
This brother (he saith) after much communication: desired to know my mind, as touching the sacrament of the body and blood of our saviour Christ, which thing I opened unto him according to the gift that god had given me. First I proved unto him, that it was none article of our faith necessary to be believed under pain of damnation: Then I declared, that Christ had a natural body. etc.  
¶ Now for so much, thou hearest what he saith.  HERE, 
I will not deny, but those be his own words in deed?  CATH. 
And in these words, thou seest plain, that he saith the sacrament of the body and blood of our saviour Christ, is none article of our faith necessary to be believed under pain of damnation.  HERE. 
All that I grant.  CATH. 
Therefore if it be not under the pain of damnation, I ask of him under what pain then? he will not say under any pains of purgatory, which he doth utterly deny, saying there is none such? And any other pains after this life, beside any of those two, there is to our knowledge utterly none. Therefore what so ever he saith, none other he meaneth, but that it is none article of our faith necessary to be believed, under any pain at all?  HERALD 
Nay sir not so, for he would not speak it as he doth, except he mente under some pain.  CA 
Under what pain is that?  HE: 
Under the pain of such laws, as be made & ordained for it here in this life.  CA 
And well said, for if he meant not that, plain it is, that he mente (as I said) none at all. But how cold he mean that, when he accounteth all those laws nothing else, but even the very cruel tyranny of men, whom he calleth proud prelate's and furious tyrants of malicious minds, and vengeable hearts, as it appeareth in the xiii and xu leaf of his book? And therefore he would that men should in no wise follow them, but rather die, then obey them.  HERE. 
How know you that?  CATH. 
By nothing better, than his own act: For even so did he himself.  HERE. 
Yet his death doth show, that he was bound under that pain. For else he had not died.  CATH. 
Take heed what thou sayest, for although his death doth show, that he was bound at the least under that pain: yet it doth not show, that he so took it for all that: But it doth show clearly the contrary: For if he had thought himself bound to believe it, he would never have chosen rather to die, then to grant it, for he was not so mad (although he were mad enough, and to mad in deed) as to choose his own death, rather than to stand to that, which he thought himself he was bound to. Therefore that he chose rather to suffer death, then to grant himself, or any man else, bound to believe it: doth most clearly prove and show, that he meant it no article of our faith to bet believed, under any manner of pain: But to be so free, & at so great liberty, that he thought it better to die (as he did in deed) then to grant it, or to be in any wise bound unto it.   

Capitulo. 3.  HERE. 
Then if he meant, under no pains at all, why did he say, under the pain of damnation, secluding no more pains, but only that?  CATH. 
He did it, either because he could not tell therein, how to express his mind but foolishly, or else because he durst not rush it even all out plainly. And yet thought to wrap it in his words so craftily, that his adversaries should not take him with the open fault directly, nor his friends belefte ignorant of his meaning, if they weighed the sequel of his words thoroughly. Wherefore sith it is clear, that he would have this sacrament none article of our faith, to be believed under any pain at all, what followeth, or what other thing is it, but that he would have no man bound to believe it? For under no pain, and then under no bond. And under no bond, then at our free liberty. And there he would have it, as it doth well and plainly apere. Therefore now let us see the deep learning of this wise man, whereby he hath drawn so many disciples after him, as he hath done: first if we be not bound to believe it, why is it an article of our faith? for an article of our faith he doth confess it, as it appeareth in the xxvi leaf of his book, where his own words be these: Though it be (he saith) an article of our faith, it is none of our creed in the xii articles, which are sufficient for our salvation.   

Capitulo. 4.  HERE. 
Marry sir this doth open all the matter?  CATH. 
How so?  HERALD 
He saith it is an article of our faith, but yet it is none of our Creed in the xii. articles.  CATH. 
A, very well, and therefore we are not bound to believe it? a blessed doctrine: It is likewise none article of our Creed in the xii articles nother (as he doth take them) that ever Christ preached or taught a monges the jews. Therefore we are not bound to believe it: It is none article of our Creed in the xii articles nother, that Christ had xii Apostles, or that there was any such Peter or Paul, as we speak of, or that our Lady lived after the death of Christ. And therefore we are not bound to believe it.  HERE. 
Yes sir, for all those things apere plain in the gospel, and therefore we are bound to believe them.  CATH. 
I tell thee, the gospel itself, is none article of our Creed, in the xii articles neither. And therefore, we are not bound to believe any more of that, then doth apere in the xii articles of the Crede, if we believe Frith, as to many do: wherefore, is not this a gay teacher, that would so shut & lock up our faith within the xii articles of our Crede, that we need not believe any of these things, nor many more beside, as great as these be? And further more, If this sacrament be an article of our faith, and we not bound to believe it, why is it a sacrament?  HERE. 
Because Christ himself did so institute it.  CA 
Then by Frithes doctrine, we are not bound to believe Christis own institution, when that, which, our saviour Christ did institute, is left at our liberty to choose whether we will believe it or no, as Frith doth hold it is. And therefore is there any man, but only Frith, & his adherentꝭ that would think our saviour Christ to institute any article of our faith so, that we might choose (without peril) w●●●her we will allow it or no? we do not allow it, if we do not believe it: and we need not believe it, if we be not bound to it: and we are not bound to it, if it be under no pain. it is under no pain saith Frithe.  HERE. 
Under no pain of damnation he saith.  CATH. 
Under no pain at all he meaneth. But nevertheless let it so be, as thou sayest in his most favour, And yet that way, because there is no bond (as he saith) under that pain: we may at that gap, (as close as thou keepest it) without any peril of damnation (after his mind) clean thrust out the credence and allowance of this holy sacrament, notwithstanding that it is of the very ordinance and institution of our saviour Christ himself. Therefore how doth Frithe handle this matter, but even as though our saviour Christ, at his institution hereof, had said, Here I leave it among you, those whether ye will believe it or no? if he had so said: what might Frithe do more, to the fortifying thereof, than he doth? wherefore sith it is plain, that our saviour Christ never said so: Nor yet, as all true christian hearts do know, never meant so: what a thing is this of Frithe, that he would yet make us believe so?  
Farther more, if it be a sacrament, then is it an article of our faith: as both the one and the other, Frithe himself doth confess and grant. Therefore if it be an article of our faith: Then the truth that is in it, must needs be of Christ: for what so ever hath not in it a truth of Christ, without fail can be no article or part of his faith. Now because a thing can not be believed or not believed, but that the truth thereof, must needs therein go withal, Mark what followeth: This article (he saith we are not bound to believe: And the truth of this article, is the truth of Christ. Wherefore we are not bound to believe the truth of Christ, if we believe Frithe. For, to believe, or not believe this article, without the truth thereof, or the truth thereof, without the article, is not possible, because they be inseparable, and can not be believed or not believed, but both together: Beside this, if there be any one of the sacraments more excellent than other, doubtless this sacrament of the blessed body and blood of our saviour Christ must needs be the chief. And therefore if we be not bound to believe this sacrament: plain it is, that we are not bound to believe any: for bound to any and bound to the chief: of the other side, not bound to the chief, and bound to none. Therefore what must follow, but, after this doctors mind, we may be bold, without any peril, to shake hands with them all, and bid them clean far well. As they but late went very near it, which retained but even bare two of them. And that was perchance, but even for a while neither.  
Wherefore, thus thou hast now a sufficient proof of the first stone, that this blind builder hath laid in his foundation: which is so evil favordly, and untruly wrought, that it can not couch or well lie of any side, but so sotteringe and far out of square, that it can never be able to bear any good piece of work, as even now it may, and here after shall much more largely apere. For if a stone well wrought and evil laid, can not make but a shrwed piece of work: what doth a stone evil lated and worse wrought, but mar all together? Therefore how Frithe laid this stone (beside his wrong working thereof) thou mayest perceive, was after this sort: It is a sacrament he saith) and an article of our faith, and yet we need not believe it: would any man think, that it could be laid any worse than so? yet to see, whether it will lie any better an other way, let us turn it, upset down.  HERE. 
As how?  CATH. 
Even thus, If we need not believe it, it is none article of our faith, nor yet no sacrament neither. And therefore, how likest thou the leiing of it now?  HERE. 
It lieth worse this way, than it did before.  CATH. 
That is long of the workemanshipppe. For Frithe wrought both, that is to say, as well the one side as the other: and of the two evil he laid the worst underneath out of sight, whereby it might the more easily and sooner deceive.  HERE. 
How so ever Frithe laid it, yet am I sure, that he never so wrought it, as you have now laid it.  CATH. 
How knowest thou that?  HERE. 
Because he neither saith, we need not believe it, nor that it is none article of our faith, nor no sacrament, as ye lay now all three to his charge, but he doth say, the contrary, and that in plain words directly. And therefore the laying of it, as ye lay it now is of your own head, and not of his.   

Cap. 5.  CATH. 
Because thou goest so far in the matter, doth he not say in plain words, that we are not bound to believe it under pain of damnation? And of that, have I not proved unto thee, that he meaneth under no pain at all? and thereby consequently, that we are not bound. Therefore all this remembered, what other thing is it to say, that we are not bound to believe it, Then to say, we need not believe it? for we need not to do, that we are not bound to: and what other thing is it to say, that we need not believe it, then to say, it is none article of our faith? for if it be an article of our faith, we are bound to believe it, or else we are not bound to the belief of the whole faith, when there is nothing else, that maketh an heretic, but the lack of some part of it.  
Wherefore, if we be bound to the belief of the whole faith, we must needs be bound to the belief of this article, which is a part of it, by Frithes own saying.  
Of the other side, if we be not bound to the belief of this article, as he doth say we are not, than it is none article of the faith at all: If it be none article of the faith, than it is no sacrament nother. For all though every article of our faith be not a sacrament, yet for all that, every holy sacrament is an article. Therefore why is it called an article of our faith, but because our faith ought so to receive it? If our faith ought so to receive it, why doth Frith say, we are not bound to believe it? if we be not bound to believe it, why doth he say, that it is an article of our faith? which he doth clean cut away again, in that he saith, we are not bound to believe it. Therefore say not (as thou saidst) that I lay this of mine own head, for I lay herein nothing else, but only the same, that was in effect, wrought and conceived in Frithes head, as it is now proved by an inevitable consequence of his own woordis before recited: wherein, whether he do now apere, more foolish than false, or more false than foolish, judge thou, if thou canst: for crew it is, that I can not.   

Cap. 6.  HERE. 
Well sir, yet I pray you here farther of his mind, and then will I tell you more of mine.  CATH. 
With a good will.  HERE. 
In the second leaf of his book his words be these.  
The foundation (he saith) of that little treatise was, that it is none article of our faith necessary to be believed under pain of damnation, that the sacrament should be the natural body of Christ: which thing is proved on this manner.  CATH. 
Soft, stay there awhile: for it is meet and convenient, that before we enter into the proof of a matter, we should first perpend, weigh and consider the matter itself, and be certain thereof, less otherwise, we should go about to prove, we can not tell what. Therefore the matter (as I take it) is this, that he saith, it is none article of our faith, necessary to be believed under pain of damnation, that the sacrament should be the natural body of Christ.  HERE. 
The same is it.  CATH. 
And this he calleth his foundation.  HERE. 
All that is true.  CATH. 
Then hath he leid two foundations. For this and the other before, which we have tried all ready, are not both one, but far unlike, and differeth much. for that before was, that the sacrament itself, is no article of our faith necessary to be believed. etc. And this now is, that it is none article of our faith necessary to be believed, that the sacrament is the natural body of Christ. Wherefore these be two foundations.  HERE. 
Sir that same other before, he did not lay for a foundation.  CATH. 
That is not so, his own words doth prove the contrary. For, in satisfying the request of his brother in Christ, as touching this sacrament, his own words (thou knowest) be these.  
First I proved unto him (he saith) that it was none article of our faith necessary to be believed. etc.  
Here thou seest no less, but of all that building, this part he laid first, as he saith himself. And in all buildings, that is the foundation, which is first laid. Therefore other he laid that, for a foundation, or else thou must needs grant, that there he builded without any foundation at all: as the most foolish builder never doth. And therefore although he doth not properly name but one foundation, yet two (as I said) he hath laid for all that, whereof sith we have tried the one already, let me now here what proof he maketh of this other?   

Capitulo. 3.  HERE. 
His proof is this?  
first we must all acknowledge (he saith) that it is none article of our faith, which can save us, nor which we are bound to believe under the pain of eternal damnation. For if I should believe, that his very natural body both flesh & blood, were naturally in the bread and wine, that should not save me: seeing many believe that, and receive it to their damnation. for it is not his presence in the bread, that can save me, but his presence in my heart through faith in his blood: which hath washed out my sins, and pacified the father's wrath toward me.  
And again, if I do not believe his bodily presence in the bread and wine: that shall not damn me: but the absence out of my heart through unbelief.  
Now sir, here ye have herd his proof, what say ye to it?  CATH. 
In very deed, with some of his own words, I say to it this. First we must all acknowledge, that he is the most subtle, crafty, and wily solititour of his master's cause, that ever traveled in this matter, so far as I have red. For if the devil himself were incarnate, and so should come among us, to see what he could do against the faith of this holy sacrament, what might he invent or imagine therein, more subtly, more craftily, and with more wiliness for the purpose, than this man of his, hath done already? For he doth not directly deny it a sacrament, he doth not directly deny it an article of our faith: he doth not directly deny, that we are bound to the belief of it neither: But he goeth anear way to work then so. For all these ways, or any of them, he knew right well, had been of such a sort, to suade at the first, that men would have been therein, more ready to spette at him, then willing to hear him. Wherefore he thought to begin an other way, that is to say, with no more, but only the denial of the pain of damnation, dew for the not believing thereof. And that because he considered, how prone, ready, and glad all men are, to be rid of the peril and danger of pains, specially the pains of damnation. And therefore to creep the more easily into their favour, he thought to enter with that, which they had most lust to here: Being well assured, that if he prevailed therein (as it seemed to him most like) all the rest of his purpose, should easily follow: as to plain it is, that it hath done, in a great sort. For if I should intend to allure thee from the belief, that Christ was borne of a virgin, how could I so craftily, and so easily bring it about by any means, as by this persuasion, that there is no peril of damnation therein? For let me once bring the out of the fear of that peril, And then, who doth not see, how easy a matter it were, to bring the out of thee fear of all other perils, which are nothing in respect of that, sith thou mightest keep the from them, with not bewraiing thyself? And when thou art once therein, throughly rid and passed the fear of all perils, what case art thou in then, with thy faith of that article, but even clean careless? for no man careth, but for fear of some displeasure that might ensue. Therefore when thou art careless, whether thou believe it or no, what need any farther persuasion to move the from it? specially when the property of the thing is such, as will never abide with him, that careth not for it: for he that careth not for it, setteth nothing by it. And he that setteth nothing by it, other hath lost it, or will not long keep it. And therefore, when it is once come to be nothing set by, To what cometh it farther, but even to contempt and extreme hatred? whereof there can be no greater proof, than the lamentable experience thereof, to great and openly known? For hath not this wily Reinarde, by the means of this his diabolical persuasion of no peril of damnation in the like case, brought many a one to the same point, with this holy sacrament which we now speak of? as it may most plainly apere, by the shameful approbrious words and behaviour of his own disciples. which stick not, some in the pulpit, and more in the ale house, to call it jack in the box: A god of xxiiii a penny: A god of the bakers making: A great idol, a sacrament of the halter, in derision of it, and of the holy alter: with such other most shameful, both saiyngꝭ and examples, so horrible and audible, as can not but abhor all good Christian ears to hear them. Therefore in this point to conclude (as I began) First me must all acknowledge (if we do well) that he is (as I said) the most wily, subtle, and crafty solititour of his master's cause that ever meddled in this matter.  
Secondarily, we must all acknowledge likewise, that he is not so wily, subtle, and crafty one way, but that he showeth himself as fond, and foolish an other way, as it doth partly apere even now, and much more shall here after. For here thou seest, he taketh upon him (as a matter of great weight) to prove that, which no man learned will deny.  HERE. 
What is that?  CATH. 
That the sacrament is not the natural body of Christ. For who knoweth any thing, and knoweth not that? although it be commonly called the body of Christ, as right well it may for divers causes, which here after shall well apere.  HERALD 
Sir of this folly, I dare well excuse him. For although it be known to them that be learned, that the sacrament itself, is not the very natural body of Christ, as it is commonly called, yet he doth well to make a proof of the truth thereof, for the unlearned sake, to whom it is otherwise, or not so well known.   

Capitulo. 8.  CATH. 
Then yet thirdly, we must all acknowledge once again, that it is hard to say, whether he be herein more foolish, or false. For plain it is, that here he doth promise one thing, and clean omitting the same, goeth about to perform an other.  HERE. 
How so?  CATH. 
doest thou not see it plain, that he doth here promise to prove, that the sacrament is not the natural body of Christ? And for the performance thereof, dost thou not see again that he goeth a bout to prove, that the natural body of Christ, is not in the sacrament? As though it were all one to say, that the sacrament is not the natural body of Christ, and to say, that the natural body of Christ, is not in the sacrament: Even as I might say, thy soul is not thy body, and for to make the believe the same, go about to prove, that thy soul is not in thy body: as though to be, and to be in, were all one, that is to say, as though to be the house, and to be in the house, were without any difference. Therefore because Frith, in divers places of his book, doubting of men's sights, doth say in the fourth leaf (this might expound our matter, if men had eyes to see,) other he himself, had eyes to see this much as I say, or else he had not: If he had not, but spoke blindly he wist near what, how foolish doth he apere? If he had, and saw what he did, how plain false doth he show himself, which is far worse? wherefore sith his position and his probation, are here of such a degeneration, that they are without all possibility, of any agreement together, let us therefore help him to change his position, and frame it somewhat according to the pretence of his probation, to see what it will prove then, because it is nothing to the purpose now.  HERE. 
How shall we do that?  CATH. 
Thou seest his position in effect is this, that the sacrament is not the natural body of Christ: And his pretended probation runneth, not upon that but upon this, that Christ's natural body is not in the sacrament. Therefore let his position be even so, to see whether his pretended probation will reach unto that or no.  HERALD 
Yes I doubt not thereof?  CA 
Whether thou do, or not, yet we must all acknowledge once again (as it doth plainly apere) that he hath in this pretended probation, brought for him, none authority of holy scripture, none of old holy doctors, nor yet so much as any one spark of reason or truth other. For all his great pretence of defending himself by those three authorities, as it appeareth in the third and fourteenth lief of his book, if thou markeit well.  HERE. 
Yes sir, very good reason he bringeth here, for he saith, If I should believe that his very natural body, both flesh and blood: were naturally in the bread and wine, that should not save me, seeing many believe that, and receive it to their damnation.  
How say ye now?  CATH. 
If thou call this good reason, thou haste but a little wit. For beside, that he doth here call it bread and wine, of a spite against the contrary: as though it were bread and wine in deed, which is most false, as hereafter it shall well apere. And beside his foolish speaking in this that he saith, If I should believe that his very natural body were naturally therein, as who say, because we do believe that Christ's very lively body, is presently and verily in the sacrament, we believe it to be therein naturally: when we do not believe it to be so in heaven. And yet we believe it to be verily there in deed, for all that. But this man doth speak, as though it were alway a general rule, that where so ever any thing is presently, it were there also naturally. As who say, when an arrow is shot up in to the air, it were there naturally, or a bladder blown full of air: and conveyed by violence down to the bottom of the water, it were there naturally. Or as who say, when god took Helias from the society, and company of mortal men, and did lift him up into heaven, he passing through the air, was there above naturally: Beside (I say) all this, very false, foolish, and nothing to the purpose, what is there in it else, which doth prove it none article of our faith, that we are bound to believe? For there about he goeth.  HERE. 
That many believe it (he saith) and receive it to their damnation.  CATH. 
What meaneth he by that? are we not bound to believe it, because they believe it.  HERE. 
Nay not therefore▪  CATH. 
What then? Because they receive it?  HERE. 
No nother.  CATH. 
Then, is it because they believe it, and receive it to?  HERE. 
He meaneth not so neither.  CATH. 
How then?  HERE. 
As Paul saith, 
1. Co. 11  He that eateth and drinketh it unworthily, doth eat and drink his own damnation.  CATH. 
A than he groundeth himself herein upon saint Paul.  HERE. 
What else?  CATH. 
In deed it were else but even his own dream, as I ween we shall find it nevertheless. Therefore if the cause why, that we are not bound to believe it, be neither because they believe it: Nor because they receive it: nor yet because they believe it and receive it both, but because of that, which followeth, that is to say, to their damnation. Then, why is it to their damnation?  HERE. 
For their unworthiness.  CATH. 
Therefore when Frithes reason is either nothing, or else this that we are not bound to believe it because many receive it to their damnation. And they receive it not to their damnation, but because of their unworthiness, how clearly doth it follow, that their unworthiness is the cause why, (by his reason) that we are not bound to believe it? And how mad a wit hath he, which will think, that any other men's unworthiness can set us, of or on, with the bond of our belief, in any point of our faith?   

Capitulo. 9  HERE. 
Sir yet ye take him wrong still. For he doth not mean that their believing, or unworthy receiving of it to their damnation, is the cause why, that we are not bound to believe it.  CA 
How then?  HERE. 
He doth mean no more, but that it doth show, that we are not bound to believe it.  CATH. 
Aha, than it is come from a proving, to a showing, and that full wise: for that they do believe it, doth rather show, that we be bound, to do so to, rather than the contrary.  HERE. 
What, when they receive it to their damnation?  CATH. 
Yea for all that: for why do they receive it to their damnation: because they believe it?  HERE. 
Nay that is not his mind neither, for than he would not have said, we are not bound to believe it.  
But he would have said, we be bound not to believe it.  CATH. 
Therefore what is this to the purpose of our bond of belief? If he counde have proved, that such as do not believe it, were in no danger therefore, it had been then an other matter. But to say, seeing many believe it: and as who say, therefore we may lawfully choose: what noddy would so say or suppose, but he?  HERE. 
Sir it is not that nother, which Frith intendeth to show it by.  CATH. 
What then?  HERE. 
That they receive it to their damnation.  CATH. 
Doth that show, that we be not bound to believe it?  HERE. 
Clearly me think.  CATH. 
Even as though the bond of believing, were enough to put away, the danger of unworthy receiving: but yet I pray thee look better upon it. And tell me in good earnest, whether it doth not seem rather to show, that we be not bound to receive it, than not bound to believe it?  HERE. 
Receive it? what we be bound thereto, by the plain words of the gospel.  CATH. 
That I grant to be true: And therefore tell me whether of them both, do Frithes words seem rather to show, for although bare words of showing be far from the strength of dew proving, yet if there be any thing in his showing, that might sound herein against our duty of believing, doubtless it doth sound ten times more against our duty of receiving, than against that. And yet between the duty of receiving, and the duty of believing herein, the difference is such, that unworthiness of manners, may and aught for the time, exclude the duty of receiving: But so it can never do the duty of believing at any time. Wherefore in this much, hitherto, we have found, under the only pretence of a great worthy proving, nothing else in deed, but his only bare, lean, and naked saying, without reason, truth, wit, or learning.   

Cap. 10.  HERE. 
Ye but yet ye must take that followeth with all, and then judge as ye see cause. For ye know he addeth unto it this, It is not his presence (he saith) in the bread, that can save me, but his presence in my heart through faith in his blood, which hath washed out my sins, and pacified the father's wrath toward me.  
Now sir weigh this and the other together.  CATH. 
Nay the other we have weighed well enough already And therefore what shall we weigh in this, but that it is none article of our faith, which we are bound to believe under pain of damnation, that the very body of our saviour Christ is presently in heaven?  HERE. 
I marvel that ye will so say. For Frith hath here no such words.  CATH. 
No, it is enough for him so to teach, although it be in other words. For when he doth say it is not his presence in the bread, that can save him, what doth he else intend, but thereby to prove that we are not bound to believe it?  HERE. 
That I grant.  CATH. 
And doth it not even as much against our belief of his very bodily presence in heaven?  HERE. 
I think not.  CATH. 
Then hearken well what I shall say, for the self same words, that he speaketh here, of Christ's bodily presence in the sacrament, I will speak of his bodily presence in heaven, and then tell me thyself, whether it be as I say or not.  HERE. 
With a good will.  CATH. 
Then this. It is not his presence in heaven, that can save me: But his presence in my heart, through faith in his blood, which hath washed out my sins, and pacified the father's wrath toward me. Wherefore it is none article of our faith, which we are bound to believe under pain of damnation. How sayest thou to it now?  HERE. 
I say the plain words of the scripture do bind us therein to the contrary.  CATH. 
And therefore I say, the plain words of the scripture is against this, which Frith doth teach. And for a more clear understanding thereof, when he saith, it is not his presence in the bread, that can save me, but his presence in my heart thorough faith in his blood, and thereof would have it follow, that it is none article of our faith, which we are bound to believe under pain of damnation, I ask no more of him, but what of his preseece upon the Cross? what of his presence in the Sepulchre? what of his presence among his disciples? what of his presence now in heaven? with his presence in many cases more? dost thou not clearly see, that this lesson of his doth run directly even as well against the belief of all these, as against the belief of his presence in this holy sacrament? Therefore if his saying make any thing against this, it maketh as much against all the rest: If it make nothing against all the rest, than it maketh nothing against this:  HERE. 
Sir the presence of these things, that ye speak of, are all gone and passed, saving his presence in heaven.  CATH. 
Ye but the faith and belief of them all among us, is neither gone nor passed, for we stand bound to that nevertheless. And that is it, which Frithe attempteth to oppugn and overthrow. And therefore what so ever he doth (as I said) against the belief of one of them: without fail he doth against the belief of them all.  HERE. 
Sir ye may make of every man's tale what he lust, if ye be so disposed.  CATH. 
Why sayest thou so. Thou mayest easily perceive, that I make none other of his tale, than thereof must I needs follow. And therefore where he goeth farther and saith of the contrary part.  
If I do not believe his bodily presence in the bread and wine: that shall not damn me, but the abcence out of my heart through unbelief.  
Look now thyself, if he might not as well have said, If I do not believe his bodily presence in heaven, that shall not damn me, but the absence out of my heart through unbelief? How sayest thou? Is it not well proved of him, that Christ's bodily presence in the sacrament, is none article of our faith, which we are bound to believe under pain of damnation, when he proveth utterly by the same reason (as he did before) even as much and no less of his bodily presence in heaven? But where he saith, If he do not believe it, that shall not damn him, how will he prove that? or why doth he not so much as pretend or seem to go about it? But without fail, because his heretical lie therein, is so great, that it will with no manner of thing be covered, but only with his false faith, which hideth it from him, and such other as he is, and from no man else. And therefore I pray thee, mark well what he saith immediately following in the same lief for his words be these, Now if they would here object (he saith) that though it be truth, that the abcence out of the bread could not damn us: yet are we bound to believe it: because of god's word, which who believeth not: as much as in him lieth, maketh god a liar. And therefore of an obstinate mind not to believe his word, may be an occasion of damnation.  
How sayest thou? dost thou not see what a foolish fantastical objection he hath here feigned of our behalf? as though we would hold and object, that the absence out of the bread (as he calleth it) were a truth, when that is his part, & not ours. For he playeth that part himself, & so do not we, but the contrary. And again, as though we would object, that we are bound so to believe it, & that by god's word: but where or which of gods words that is, he telleth us not. Wherefore this proper objection, of his mad fantastical feigning, I will pass over, lest I should with more talk, rather hied, then disclose the foolishness of it. And therefore behold it well thyself, for I leave it unto thee, even as it is, because it appeareth more foolish of itself, than I can declare with all I can say. And yet because his solution thereof, doth answer it so well, as though thobiectionobjection itself had never been imagined, thou shalt here it, to th'intent thou mayest perceive, what a colour he doth cast upon the matter, under the only pretence of an answer, and nothing else.  
To this we may answer (he saith) that we believe gods word, and knowledge that it is true: but in this we descent, whether it be true in the sense that we take it in, or in the sense, that ye take it in: and we say again that though ye have (as it appeareth unto you) the evident words of Christ, And therefore consist in the bark of the letter: yet are we compelled by the conferring of the scriptures together within the letter, to search out the mind of our saviour. which spoke the words. And we say thirdly, that we do it not of an obstinate mind. For he that defendeth a cause obstinately (whether it be true or false) is ever to be reprehended. But we do it to satisfy our consciences, which are compelled by other places of scripture, reasons, and doctors so to judge of it. And even so ought you to judge of your party, and to defend your sentence not of obstinacy, but by the reason of scriptures, which cause you so to take it, and so ought neither party to despise other. For each seeketh the glory of god: and true understanding of the scripture.  
I doubt not, but here thou seest a wonderful charity in this man, which suadeth so sore, to such a concord to be had between truth and falsehood, that he would have neither party despise other: for each (he saith) seeketh the glory of god, & the true understanding of the scripture. And therefore I would yet know of him, when, or where, that party should find the glory of god, and the true understanding of the scripture, which seeketh it in falsehood?  HERE. 
what speak you of that, when Frith meaneth no such party?  CATH. 
Wilt thou say so? is not that one of the parties, that Frith speaketh of, which holdeth with Christis bodily presence in the sacrament, and that to be believed under pain of damnation, and the other, which holdeth directly the contrary? And therefore if the one be true, the other must needs be false: yet each (he saith) seeketh the glory of god, and the true understanding of the scripture: And I say then, the one in truth, and the other in falsehood, speed as they can, for so it is, when they be in two direct contraries. But where our saviour Christ saith unto us, 
Math. 7.  Querite, & invenietis, that is to say, seek and ye shall find, although he meant therein none other thing, then appertaineth to the glory of god, and the true understanding of the scripture, yet because he did not there appoint us dir●●●… with apert and special words, wherein we should seek it, Frith perchaunte took him to mean it indifferently, as well in falsehood as in truth. And that may well be the cause why, that he for his part, sought the glory of god, & the true understanding of the scripture, in falsehood: And left us to seek it in truth, where withal he would not meddle: how be it little need he had so to do, for therein found we it, long before. And that is the cause, he liked us so much the worse. And therefore yet mark the wily Raynard, where about he goeth.  HERE. 
where about?  CATH. 
Even to bring both the parties to such an indifferency, that neither should despise other, while his part might have a quiet leisure to creep in, and clean thrust out the t'other: for well he wost, (for all his false dissimulation) that they could not continue together. Therefore as touching all the rest of his answer beside, weigh his objection and that well together: And as in folly and falsehood thou shalt not find them a sunder. Even so in any point else, thou shalt not bring them together. wherefore now because we have hitherto spent some more time than needed, in an error so plain, and yet not half so much, as the foolish falsehood thereof would require, if it should be fully declared, look if he have aught else, that seemeth to the any thing more to maintain or make for his evil purpose then this, bring it forth, and thou shalt here what I will say to it.   

Cap. 11.  HERE. 
Me think sir, he hath, for all this, in a certain place, such a strong reason for his purpose herein, as all the world can not avoid.  CATH. 
what so ever it be, thou mayest yet, by this that is pass, be sure of one of these two, that either it is not true in deed, or else although it be, yet it maketh nothing for him.  HERALD 
By that reason, it can make nothing for him, whether it by true or false.  CATH. 
That can be no lie, for there is no truth, that can truly make with falsehood.  HERE. 
Yet ye shall here what it is.  CATH. 
With a good will.  HERE. 
In the iii leaf of his book even these be his words,  
And first that it is (he saith) none article of our faith necessary to be believed under pain of damnation, may thus be farther confirmed. The same faith shall save us, which saved the old fathers before Christ's incarnation: But they were not bound under pain of damnation to believe this point. Therefore it shall follow, that we are not bound thereto under pain of damnation. The first part of mine argument, is proved by saint Austen ad Dardanum: And I dare boldly say almost in an hundredth places. For there is I think no proposition, which he dothmore often inculcat than this, that the same faith shall save us, which saved our fathers. The second part is so manifest, that it needeth no probation: for how could they believe that thing, which was never said nor done? and without the word they could have no faith, upon the truth of these two partis must the conclusion nedis follow. Now sir, how say ye to this gear?  CATH. 
Countreiman, as thou sayest, it is perchance after the judgement of some, a great and sore reason. But yet I promise the one thing, it seemeth to the no more true, than it is well known to me, to be very false, specially as he doth understand it, and as thou shalt find it, if thou hearken well to me. And for the sure and perfect trial thereof, Thou must first consider this, that Logic is a certain.  HERE. 
Nay then we have it, and ye come in with Logic▪  CATH. 
What soft, thou dost interrupt my tale, as though thou mightest not abide the herring of it.  HERE. 
Tush sir logic, what should Lohike do here▪  CATH. 
A, I know what thou meanest well enough. And therefore hold thy peace a while, till I have told thee, 
Logic.  what I mean. For Logic (I say) is a certain art, which doth teach a compendious way to discern the verity of a thing, from the falsity, and that can not be done, except both be known. Therefore among all other things, there is for the purpose invented a certain argument, which is made and form of three partis. And of the which three, the first and the second are called in schools, two propositions, the more and the less. And when those two, in their convenient kind be both true, and truly knit together, than the third part, which of them both, must needs follow, and is called the conclusion, can never be false. And again, when any of those two propositions be false, or not truly knit together, the conclusion, which should follow, can by them, never be true. This argument also, when the first part, and the second is true, whereof their necessary conclusion must needs be true also, it is called them a Syllogismus. 
Sillogismus. Sophistication.  And when any of them both be false, for the which their intended conclusion, can by them never be true, it is then called a Sophistication. So that between Logic and Sophistry, there is in this case no difference, but under one apparent manner and form, the one holdeth the verity, and the other the falsity. Therefore this faculty, art, or cunning of Logic, I dare well say, there is no just lover of truth, but will judge it very necessary to be had, when it is but the just trial of truth itself. And yet is it a thing, which in special, some teachers do utterly forbid, and cry out upon. But that would they never do, if their teaching were good & true. For who be they, that teach a doctrine, and forbiddeth their disciples the judgement of such, as can best skill to discern what it is, but only falls harlots, which go about to deceive.  HERE. 
Sir wherefore speak you all this?  CATH. 
Truly even for the school, that thou art of. For have you not brought the name of Logic and philosophy so far in slander of subtle and crafty deceit, among no small sort of such as knoweth it not, that they do now suspect, and refuse the judgement of a man so much the more, as they think or hear tell, that he is learned therein. But 〈◊〉 this your 〈◊〉 doing, how great is your shame, in the judgement of such, as do well perceive it? And yet how like is all that shame, in respect of this, that the very same may well be found and proved in you, which ye try so sore upon all your disciples, most chiefly to shun and beware of in other? that is to say, sophistical subtilty, as though ye meddled nothing withal yourselves, when ye practise & use almost nothing else? And that is the cause why, that ye forbid your scholars the herring of such as know it, lest by them they should learn to espy and perceive your falsehood, which ye would have run and ●…eepe still in the dark, unto the time it might put out all the light.   

Cap. 12.  HERETICUS. 
Sir I pray you give me leave, we go about the 〈◊〉 of Frithes matter, therefore, what is all this to that purpose?  CATH. 
Dost thou not perceive?  HERE. 
No truly. For he never used any such thing as ye speak of.  CATH. 
No did? Shall I need to rehearse unto thee (which dost know it so well) how he doth exclaim and cry against sophisters and sophistry almost in every corner of his book, and yet playeth none other, but the same part himself? For inquire thou of any ●●n, that can shall thereof, and if he do not say, that this, which thou hast now rehearsed of Frithes own words, is the self same scholastical and sophistical argument, which I have here described unto thee, and is daily used in the schools, take me for no better then, (I say) he is. How be it, I do not mean, that it is the same argument, which is daily used in schools, when it holdeth the verities: but utterly the same, when it holdeth the falsity, only with these two differences, that in the schools it is put in latin where he putteth it here in english and again them it is but a feigned falsehood, to teach me● to be were of it: And here it is an earnest falsehood, to teach men to be deceived with it. And to prove this that I say to be true, First I shall not need to bid thee, bear his argument well in mind, which hast here rehearsed it unto me thyself. Therefore if thou mark it well the whole pith of it, doth rest upon the saying of saint Austen, which as 〈◊〉 doth allege him, is this, (The same faith shall save us which ●aned the old fathers before Christ's incarnation Now if saint Austen had not said, the same faith, but an other faith shall save us. etc. it had been utterly nothing for Frithes purpose. Therefore thou mayest plainly see thyself, that all the weight of the matter, doth lie in this word. The same. Wherefore let us now ●●…e ●●…rder, what manner of word this is, and whether it be apt to build a good argument upon, or not.  HERE. 
That is but reason.  CATH. 
then tell me truly, what thing thou art.  HERE. 
What thing am I? what should I be but a man?  CATH. 
And am I any other thing then that?  HERE. 
No that is plain.  CATH. 
Then am I the same that thou art, and thou the same that I am. But what so ever the same that I am, doth, I do: And what so ever the same that thou art, doth, thou dost. Therefore it must needs follow, that what so ever thou dost, I do, and what so ever I do, thou dost, because thou art the same that I am, and I the same that thou art.  HERE. 
Nay sir, that will not follow.  CATH. 
Why so?  HERE. 
Because you take this word (the same) other wise than I meant. For although we be each the same that other is in nature, we do yet differ in person: for ye be one person, and I an other: And not the same that you be, nor you the same that I am. Therefore your arts be not mine: nor mine yours.  CATH. 
Yet thou thyself, when thou were first borne, were the same in nature, and the same in person then, that thou art now, and the same now that thou were then.  HERALD 
That I grant.  CATH. 
But thou were then, not one yard long. Therefore no more thou art now, when thou art now the same that thou were then.  HERE. 
What sir yet again? It is two things to be the same in nature and person: and to be the same in quantity. Therefore ye may be sure, that I meant not so neither.  CATH. 
Then thou or I, were deceived again in this word (the same).  HERE. 
That is true.  CATH. 
Yet that quantity of thine except, thou wilt grant thyself to be now, the same that thou were then.  HERE. 
Yea that except.  CATH. 
And then thou couldst neither speak nor go. whereof it followeth, no more thou canst do now, while thou art now the same that thou were then.  HERE. 
Tush, sir after this manner, ye might reason also of mine age, and my knowledge, with all other powers and qualities beside, when ye may be sure, I do not so mean.  CATH. 
Then tell me this, were not all english people an hundredth years passed, bound to the law of this land, and we now living? also to the same.  HERE. 
That is no doubt.  CATH. 
Go to now, and take heed what I say: we be bound to the same law now, that they were, which lived an hundredth years passed. But they that were living an hundredth years passed, were not bound to the statutes and arts of the last parliament. Therefore it followeth, no more be we now: except thou wilt say, they be no parts of the law: and then we be not bound to them neither.  HERALD 
Sir we be bound to the law that our elders were, & they to the same that we be. But this is understand the same in general, that is to say, the law of England, without any respect of parts. For it was none other, nor no less, than the law of England, which they were bound to: nor it is no other, nor no more than the law of England neither, which we are bound to. Therefore when it is no more, nor less, nor yet none other, it must needs be the same (as I said) in respect of the whole generally, and not the same in respect of the parts specially, by as many acts and statutes as hath been since, for considerations added unto it more than was then. Therefore your argument is false, and can not hold.   

Cap. 13.  CATH. 
Country man, I can thee thank, for without question thou speakest herein very well: and therefore mark what I shall say unto thee, when it is so, that this word (the same) is of a signification so ambiguous & incertain, that a thing may be said the same in nature, and not the same in person, or the same in them both, and not the same in quantity, or the same in all three, and not the same in power, or the same in one quality, and not the same in an other: or the same in general, and not the same inspeciall: or the same in all these, & yet not the same in many cases more beside: when a thing (I say) may be called the same, and yet not the same, in so many respectis, why did not Frith with all his sophistry (again the which he barked so sore, & yet used nothing more) why did he not consider all this in the word, and put away the doubtful understanding, and ambiguity thereof, before he made thereupon his argument? Seing it might chance to be (as of him it is) taken otherwise, than the author of the word, did mean or intend? for either he knew, or he knew not, that he should so do, or else take it for no ground or principle to dispute upon: if he did not know it, that is to say, if he did not know, that a conclusion can not be proved by any principle, which is incertain: doubtless he was them to blind a teacher, to be believed of any man, specially in so great and weighty a matter as this is. For all men know, it is against both nature & reason, to come to surety, by incertitude. Again of the other part, if he did know it, & yet would (as he did) tumble forth his argument nevertheless: what other thing could move him so to do, but only wilful malice & falsehood. For be it in case, that I perceived a word or a sentence, the sense whereof: were doubtful and incertain (for the which no truth thereupon were probable) and yet before the ambiguity thereof were put away, would ground mine argument upon the same: what could cause me so to do, but only to make men think, I prove that I prove not, And so make them believe, that they ought not. For the intent of every earnest argument, is alway to cause the conclusion to be granted, whether it be true or false. Therefore what motive thereof canst thou find, in who so ever so doth, but even a malicious intention to deceive other? Wherefore, whether blind ignorance, or else this wilful malice, were the cause why, that Frith did build his argument upon this flitting foundation, I leave it partly for this time, to thine own judgement. For of the one, or the other, I am sure thou canst not excuse him  HERALD 
Yes sir, he might chance (as many men do) purposely put forth an argument, taken of an incertain principle, to here what would be said unto it.  CATH. 
Nay nay my friend, that is not it, that can excuse him. For although that, be sometime used in schools, to the intent it might by that, be learned, where the falsity of such arguments doth rest: yet questionless Frith had here no such purpose. For he did not put it forth, to see what would be said to the contrary, or that it should be learned, where the deceit of it lay. But his intent was only by the craftiness thereof, to draw men into his false and wicked opinion. The which he held so vehemently to be true, that he laid thereupon, no les wager, them his own self, both body & soul: the loss of the which, without fail, is no les like in both, than it is well known, to be sure in the one: how be it that shall pass, to come to our purpose again, which is to show, the great falsehood of him in his argument.  
For who but he, would as who say, so headlong at a venture judge saint Austen (when he saith, the same faith shall save us, which saved the old fathers) to mean the same faith in respect of every particular point distinctly, and not the same only in respect of the whole together confusely. For these two considerations do much differ in every thing. And that wondrous plainly in the law, as thou didst even now declare thyself. For in the consideration and respect of the whole, confusely together, it is even the same now, that it was an hundredth years past, & was even then the same that it is now: that is to say, the law of England now, and none other then: the law of England then, and none other now. which word doth signify, all the whole thing together more or less without any difference or respect of any special parts at all. For when thou hearest it spoken, it doth put the no more in mind of any one part, then of any other. but of the unity of them all together, which, the name doth only signify. But the consideration of the same in parts distinctly, doth differ far from that. For in respect thereof, it is not even the same now, that it was an hundredth years passed, nor the same then, that it is now, by all the acts and statutes, which hath been added unto it since, and yet can it not follow but that it is the same law in general still, for all the new partis, which it had not before. Also a tree, being full of new leaves, twigs, branches, & bows, is yet the same tree, that it was, years past before they sprung out of it: but how the same? the same in respect of the whole, which is but one. And not the same in respect of the partis which are many. For some parts be new, but so are not al. yet before the new partis were sprung out of it, it was none other, nor yet no less than the same tree, that it is afterward: & afterward none other nor yet no more, than the same tree, that it was before. Therefore as the tree, full of new partis, is even the same tree, that it was before: and yet not the same in every point. And as the law of this land, is even the same law now, that it was an hundredth years passed, and yet not the same in every point. Even so is the faith of Christ now, the same that it was before his incarnation, that is to say, the faith of Christ then, and the faith of Christ now, all one and the same, in respect of the whole (whereof it beareth the name, without respect of any numbered of parts more or less) but yet not the same in respect of every point, without any manner of difference particularly. Wherefore suppose thou in it, but even one particular difference, and tell me then, where is all Frithes argument become: When, for any thing that is in it else, even the faith of this blessed sacrament, might well be the same, which he laboureth so sore to overthrow.   

Cap. 10  HERE. 
An argument sir ye know right well, is not to be avoided by suppositions or conjectures, but by probable and manifest reasons. And therefore if ye can prove any such particular difference between the old father's faith before Christ's incarnation and ours now, whereof it must needs follow, that saint Austin's words can not be so understand, as you say Frith doth take them, I wots then what I have to do.  CA 
Without fail there be divers differences, not only to sure to be doubted in, but also to manifest & open to be inquired of. For had the old fathers before Christ's incarnation believed in every particular point of the faith as we do: that is to say, believed his blessed birth, passion, resurrection, and ascension to be done and passed, as we do: and we to come as they did: Even so far differ we each from other, that it had else been damnable, both of their part, and ours to. Also there was contained in their faith divers sacraments, which we have not in ours. And likewise in ours, which they had not in theirs, and that the chief of each part. again, their faith, being much hid, and covered with so many figures, dark shadows, and mystical prophecies, as in manner the whole course of scripture doth testify that it was: who therefore would not see it to be then, but obscure, gross and confuse, in respect of the pure distinct clearness, which ours took, by the very coming of our saviour Christ himself, and the predication of his gospel? And what was that same obscurity, but as who say, a covering of many points together confusely, which the new bright splendour of Christ, did open and show distinctly? whereby it may well appear, that their faith and ours, could not be thoroughly like and both one, in every point particularly. More over there is no doubt, but that there were many good and faithful folk, of the common people of the jews, beside the prophets. Nevertheless, we may not think, that they had the faith in such manner as the prophets had themselves (which were therewith immediately inspired of god) that is to say, not so clearly, so specially, and so distinctly as they had, but much more obscurely, grossly, & confusely: By reason whereof it is plain, that their faith contained many things more than they were ware of themselves, the which things were yet not so hid & unknown to the prophets that taught them. Furthermore it is not to be thought, that each of the prophets had it like distinctly neither. When some of them be called more, and some less, as the cause whereof, doth well apere by their works, of the which, some one is far more large than divers of the rest together: God showed not distinctly & apertly, all to each of them, but some to one, and some to an other. Yet we may not say, that he, or any of the common people, which were faithful, had for all that, any less than altogether confusely. For who so ever, at the least way, hath it not so, doubtless hath rightly thereof, nothing at all: because the truth of the whole faith (as I showed the yester day) is privily hid and contained in every part of it. Finally, as the manner of having the faith, differed between the prophets and the common people of the jews then: so doth it not only between their time and ours, but also between some one sort, and an other, of us even now. For there is no doubt, but the ploughman hath now the same faith, which hath the doctor of divinity, and the doctor, the same that he hath, that is to say, the faith of Christ: but yet far unlike. For where the ploughman hath it in manner but grossly and confusely: the doctor hath it more specially and distinctly. And therefore in the ploughman's confuse faith: doubtless there be many more special articles and mysteries contained, than he is ware of himself, which be not unknown to the doctor: Yet nevertheless, unto the belief, as well of them, as of the residue, the ploughman is no less bound, (for all that he is not ware of them) then is the doctor of divinity with his presise knowledge. For the same faith shall save the one, which saveth the other: Although they have it not both like, but with great difference. Therefore when the faith between the fathers and us, hath by reason of time, taken one difference, and that such as they could not have been saved, believing in every point as we do, nor we believing as they did. And when it hath also taken an other difference in things, no less than very sacraments, and that of the chief of both parts. And beside all that, when there is between their faith and ours such a difference in the manner of having of it, that it may be said, they had the same and not the same that we have: and we the same and not the same that they had, because that, which they had more grossly confusely, and obscurely, we have it more particularly, distinctly and manifestly. Saint Austen (thou mayest well know) when he saith, (as Frith doth allege him) the same faith shall save us, which saved the fathers, never meant (as Frith doth falsely understand him) the same faith in every condition particularly, but the same, in respect of the whole confusely, that is to say, the faith of Christ generally, without any distinct consideration of parts. As a man doth oft times speak or think of money, without any consideration of this coin or that, or how many divers coins be contained under the general name of money. As there hath been sometime fewer, and sometime more, and yet the general name thereof, no more, no less, nor none other, but always one and the same.   

Capitulo. 15.  HERE. 
Sir yet still, I do somewhat marvel, how ye know, that Frith (as ye say) doth understand saint Austen to mean the same faith in every condition particularly.  CATH. 
And I do marvel also, how thou couldest else find which way saint Austin's words might so much as seem, any thing to sound to his purpose. For if he had understand saint Austen to mean, the same faith, with any difference, Then the same difference might have been in this holy sacrament, as well as in any thing else. And where had Frithes purpose been then? Therefore thou mayest easily perceive, that he understandeth him to mean, without any difference at all. For if he had understand so much, and no more difference, between the father's faith and ours, but even only as is in the divers manner of having thereof: that is to say, of our part, the particular, distinct, and pure clearness of it (which it took through the blessed coming of Christ, and of their part, the gross and confuse obscurity of it (wherein it was before that same light of the world came forth & showed his beams abroad) there were no doubt, but it would thereof well follow (as the truth is in deed) that this holy sacrament, as well as the sacrament of baptism, with many other things more, was then in their faith, although not manifest, as now in ours, but obumbrat, covered and hid, with the shadow of that cloudy season. According to the words of the apostle, saying: 
●. Co. 1●  Our fathers were all under a cloud: which cloud had been to them no cloud at all, if every particular part of our faith, which was contained in theirs, had been so distinctly had and known of them, as it is of us: yet they had the same faith that we have: how be it (as I said) after an other manner. For if we should be bound to the belief of no more things particularly, than were open and manifest to them before Christ's most glorious incarnation, because the same faith shall save us, which saved them then: it must thereof clearly follow, that either our saviour Christ himself brought with him no more light of the faith, that is to say, he revealed no more secretis thereof, necessary for our salvation, than were open and known before. Or else if he did (by Frithes no reason) we are not bound to believe them: what wicked person would believe or think any of them both, beside Frith? I must needs except him, because it so followeth of his own doctrine. Therefore where the manner of schools is this, that he which maketh an argument, must to confirm the same, prove the parts thereof particularly by themselves, which form and manner Frith doth here sophistically pretend to imitate: And for the proof of his first part, he hath no more but his allegation of saint Austen falsely understand, which maketh for him even thereafter, as thou hast herd, I will now to the second part of his argument, to see what proof he maketh of that: except thou hast yet any thing else to say more in this.  HERALD 
Nothing sir, that I will yet declare, till I here what ye will say to the rest.   

Cap. 16.  CATH. 
Then the second part of his argument (thou knowest) is this, that the fathers before Christis incarnation, were not bound under pain of damnation to believe this point of the holy sacrament. Which part (he saith) is so manifest, that it needeth no probation, and two causes why, he doth allege, whereof the one is, that in their time it was never said. And the other is, that it was never done. For without the word (he saith) they could have no faith. Therefore quickly to dispatch the one of them, if he will have it follow, that the fathers before Christ's incarnation were not bound to believe it, because it was never done in their time: by the same reason it must needs follow, that their were not bound to believe, the birth of Christ, his death, his resurrection, nor his ascension. For those things were never done in their time neither. Wherefore if they were not bound to believe those articles, it must also needs follow thereof, that we are not bound to believe them neither, because the same faith shall save us which saved them.  HERE. 
Sir although these things were not done in their time, yet they were done sense.  CATH. 
So was the holy sacrament to. Therefore what is that to Frithes purpose? he speaketh of their time, and not of any time sense. For he goeth about to take away, our bond of belief in the holy sacrament, because (as he saith) the fathers before Christ's incarnation were not bound to believe it. And they were not bound to believe it (he saith) because it was never done in their time. And I say, no more was Christ's birth, his passion, his resurrection, nor his ascension neither. Wherefore (by his doctrine) the fathers were not bound to believe them. And by the same rule no more are we, because the same faith shall save us, which saved them. Therefore is not this, that it was never done in their time, one good cause why, that this second part of his argument needeth no probation? as it needeth not in deed.  
For without fail it is plain evil enough, without any probation at all. And now therefore to his other cause, which is this, that it was never said in their time: what must follow thereof?  HERE. 
As Frithe doth say, that they were not bound to believe it. For without the word (he saith) they could have no faith.  CATH. 
Then if he will have it follow, that the fathers were not bound to believe it, because it was never said in their time, will it follow thereof, that we are not bound to believe it, when we have not only heard it said in our time, but also have it in deed?  HERE. 
Ye sir, for the same faith shall save us which saved them.  CATH. 
Then if we be not bound to believe it, because the same faith shall save us, which saved them, and they were not bound to believe it, because they never heard of it: it must also by the same reason follow, that they were not bound to believe any of those things, which our saviour Christ, and all his disciples did preach and teach, more than was said before their coming in those father's days: so that in all the gospels and the epistles, that is to say, in all the new testament, there is nothing said, necessary for our salvation, more than was said, herd, and understand, before the incarnation of Christ in the father's time: or else if there be: seeing (after this doctors mind) the fathers were never bound to believe it, because it was never said in their time, and without the word (he saith) they could have no faith, we need not believe it nother, because the same faith shall save us which saved them. is not this a goodly reason? Farther more, how doth this doctrine agree with the words of our saviour Christ himself, where, to his disciples he saith: Blessed are your ears, 
Mat. 13.  because they do hear those things, which many prophets and just men, greatly desired to hear, and yet heard them not. Therefore what were those things, that made the ears of the apostles so happy and blessed in the hearing of them, but the sayings of Christ? And why were those prophets and just men desirous to hear them, and heard them not: but because they were never said in their time? Therefore they were not bound to believe them, and consequently no more are we neither, because the same faith shall save us, which saved them. Take good heed, for this doctor will make thee a good christian man, if thou mark and hearken well to him. For if our saviour Christ spoke any things, of more worthiness and profit then other, doubtless those prophets and just men, were most desirous to hear them, and yet heard them not. But the cause why was this, that they were never said, in their time. Wherefore they were not bound to believe the most worthy and profitable things, that ever Christ spoke: and no more are we neither, because the same faith shall save us which saved them. Also the chief things that ever Christ taught, are the chief things that appertain to the health of man's soul. But those things were they, that made the ears of his apostles blessed in their hearing of them. And those things were they, that many prophets and just men desired to here, and heard them not. Wherefore those prophets and just men were not bound to believe, the chief things that ever Christ taught for the health of man's soul: Because they were never said in their time. And therefore no more are we bound to believe them neither, because the same faith shall save us, which saved them.   

Cap. 17.  HERE. 
Sir ye make (me think) more ado of the matter than needeth:  CA 
Nay then tell me how much time should I spend, if I should not refrain till I had showed thee, all such abominable inconveniences, as must needs follow, of these first two parts, of his sophistical argument? Wherefore, of the third part, which is the conclusion, thou needest not doubt what it is: And therefore because thou hast sufficiently heard, how well he hath proved the parts thereof: Behold now the whole together, after the same form and manner as he doth put it: And see how it will appear in an other article or two. ¶ The same faith (he saith) shall save us, which saved the old fathers before Christ's incarnation. But they were not bound under pain of damnation, to believe, that the sacrament of baptism is a sacrament. Therefore it shall follow, that we are not bound thereto, under the pain of damnation. The first part of mine argument is proved, by saint Austen (after Frithes understanding) Add dardanum. etc. The second part is so manifest, that it needeth no probation. For how could they believe that thing, which was never said nor done: And without the word they could have no faith. Upon the truth of these two partis, must the conclusion needs follow: which is this: That we are not bound to believe that the sacrament of baptism is a sacrament. And even by the same argument, that the blessed sacrament of the altar, is not so much as a sacrament nother, as of his own words I proved unto thee before: so that, although we are (as every man knoweth) bound all, under pain of damnation, to receive the sacrament of baptism, yet we be not bound to believe it: that is to say, we are not bound to believe the same thing, which we are bound to receive, when the just rule is this, that look of what necessity the thing is to be had, of the same necessity, it is to be believed. But thou mayst see, what a faith this man's argument teacheth us, so new and strange, as I dare well say, never true christian man was aqueinted withal, or the like. And yet let us behold, the pattern thereof once again in an other case: and so bliss us clean from it for ever. The same faith shall save us, which saved the old fathers before Christis incarnation: But the jews dispersed now in Christendom (as in Room, Venice, and in other places) have the same faith, which the old fathers had before Christ's incarnation. Therefore it shall follow, that the same faith shall save us, which the jews hath now. The first part of mine argument, (after Frithes understanding) is proved by saint Austen ad dardanun. etc. The second part is so manifest, that it needeth no probation: for the credence of so many, no light persons, but of sober wits and good learning both, as hath come from Room, Venice, and other places (where many of the jews be now abiding) and hath made report here among us, not only of their faith to be of the old testament, which was the old father's faith, but also of their exceeding diligence wherewith they cease not to keep and observe the same, and the ceremonies thereof, so much as they may, instructing, teaching, and bringing up their children in such manner therein, that they be thought more prompt, ready, and perfect in the letter of the old testament, at xvi or xviii years of age, than the most part of our students be at thirty. The credence (I say) of those so many grave and sad persons coming from where those jews be, and reporting these things of them, with much and many other more concerning the same, doth show an argument inevitable, that they have now the same faith, which the old fathers had before Christ's incarnation, specially when in their fast holding and keeping thereof, doth consist all their great hope, and whole trust of pleasing god to their salvation. Wherefore upon the truth of these two parts, must the conclusion needs follow. which is even this, that the same faith, which the jews hath now, shall save us: that is to say, without batisme, without the belief that our saviour Christ is come, or hath suffered death, or hath risen again, or hath ascended to heaven, of the which, they believe not so much as any one. judge now thyself, whether this be of true Logic, or of deceivable Sophistry: yea rather of very true faith, or abominable heresy: Is it not a proper argument, which can so try our duty in every article, from one to an other, that without peril of damnation we may leave our belief of them altogether? For surely, and without any doubt, look how much it maketh against this article, which he would overthrow, if he might: Even so much it maketh not only against many more directly, but also against them altogether consequently. If it make nothing against all (as I said before) without fail no more doth it against this one: For any thing against this one, and so much against all: Nothing against all, and as little against this.   

Cap. 18.  HERE. 
Well sir, we have enough of this. And therefore I pray you, let us here what he bringeth more of saint Austen in other places.  CATH. 
Some reason thou seemest to require. But yet I would first wit of thee, where he had these words of saint Austen, which he hath herein thus alleged already, and boasteth so much to make for his purpose?  HERE. 
He himself doth tell you where, in that he saith ad dardanum, that is to say, in that epistle, which saint austin wrote to one Dardanus.  CATH. 
Ye but when Frith doth allege saint Austen in other places, he doth allege him in his own words as he wrote them at the first in latin, and after doth translate the same in to English. And therefore why doth he not here now, even so likewise?  HERE. 
He doth allege him in English.  CATH. 
And why not also first in latin?  HERE. 
What need that here, when th'English is enough?  CATH. 
Why needeth it not here, as well as in other places, where he doth both?  HERE. 
It needeth not in any place, when thenglish is as good, and doth serve the turn as well as the latin. Wherefore there is no matter in this. For it was but as it chanced him to do.  CATH. 
Chanced him? Nay my friend thou shalt not excuse him so. For I will recite unto thee, saint Austin's own words of the same place myself, both in latin and also in English. And then tell me how this Reynards' allegation thereof, doth agree withal. For the very words of saint Austen speaking there, of the sacrament of baptism, are in latin even these.  
Sacramentum porro regenerationis nostre, manifestum esse voluit manifestatus mediator: Erat autem antiquis justis aliquid occultnm. Cum tamen & illi eadem fide salui fierint, quae fuerat suo tempore revelanda. That is to say, certainly, the mediator made manifest, would the sacrament of our regeneration to be manifest For there was something hid from the old just men: when for all that, they were saved by the same faith which was to be revealed, when the time thereof came. Now mark how Frithes allegation agreeth with this. For he maketh it in these words: The same faith (he saith) shall save us, which saved the old fathers before Christ's incarnation: how doth this and the other, sound and agree? doth saint Austen make here any mention of Christ's incarnation? any mention of fathers any mention of us? as this wily pie doth chatter and clatter unto us?  HERE. 
Sir although he doth it not directly in proper words, yet is it so implied in his saying, that it may well be gathered thereof. For by those old just men, he meant the old fathers. And by the same faith, he meant the faith that saveth us sense Christis incarnation. So that all this (I say) may well be gathered of his saying. And according to the same, Frithe doth here allege him:  CATH. 
Although thou sayest in Frithes behalf, as much as can be said for him, yet thou must needs grant, that the same, that Frith doth here allege, is not the very words of saint Austen, but Frithes own gathering thereof, as he himself doth take them.  HERE. 
What of that?  CATH. 
I shall tell the what, thou hast herd enough to perceive, that his gathering is not of saint Austin'S meaning. wherefore it can not be avoided, but he doth here allege saint Austen in that, which saint Austen never said, nor meant, when he doth allege him neither in his words, as he spoke them, nor yet in the sense, that he meant them, but under pretence thereof, in his own proper meaning, according to his false dreaming and nothing else.  HERE. 
Nay sir and ye go so to work, I must needs look better upon the matter. For where ye say he doth not allege saint Austin's words, that is not so. For although he doth not allege them all, yet he doth allege some of them.  CATH. 
Thou sayest well therein▪ For in deed some of a man's words, may so be handled without the rest, that they are enough to invert and overthrow the very right sense of all the whole tale. And therefore what words of saint Austin's be those that he doth here allege?  HERALD 
That are these: they were saved (saith S. Aus.) by the same faith and the same faith (saith Frith) shall save us.  CA 
Callest thou this an allegation of a man's words, which should always be, but a just rehearsal or a veritall thereof, is witness, prove, or confirm an other thing by? For to that purpose, all true men do evermore use it, and none otherwise. But here thou seest no rehearsal at all, but only an other distinct saying: and so distinct, that it differeth in words, it differeth in order, it differeth in sense, it differeth in time, it differeth in person, and almost in every condition: so that it may well be denied to be any of saint Austin's mind. In so much, that if Frith had le●●e out, p●● in, or changed, but a word of saint Austin's saiying, he had yet made therein, but a false allegation. Wherefore now, 〈◊〉 he changeth in manner no less than all together, what shall we say, but that, under the only colour and pretence of an allegation, he doth falsely bely saint Austen, and nothing else?  HERE. 
Sir that foundeth but shrewdly, and therefore I pray you say not so.  CATH. 
Why ●a●e not I say so, as well as he doth is? For doth he not here●… father and forge the great proof of his purpose upon saint Austen? And yet what one word hath he here of saint Austin's saying but only this, that he saith, the same faith? which he taketh neither in the same sense, nor order ●●ther, that saint Austen speaketh it in. And therefore doth he not lie upon him, when he saith his purpose may be proved by him▪ for what can a word or words prove, when they make no perfect sentence? and what perfect sentence maketh these words, They were saved by the same faith? But wottest thou why, he handleth the matter after this sort?  HERE. 
Why say you?  CATH. 
I shall tell the. Frith took this place of S. Austen, as though it had been like unto a snaake: whose venom (men say) is but in the head and the tail: which being cut away, the rest of the body may well be eaten, as it is said, to be used in some countries. And therefore according to the same, Frith perceiving the head and tail of this place of saint Austen to be such, as were enough and able to kill and destroy the whole pith of his purpose altogether, did in his allegation cut them both clean away: and yet he suspecting that they would, at the least, be miss and asked for, if he should have brought forth all the rest of his body, as it is, did also therefore cut out thereof, but this pretty piece (the same faith) so little, as whereby it should not be known, of what kind of body it was: And so, neither the head, nor the tail be looked for, nor miss neither. For if he had brought forth the whole rest of the body together, that is to say, the middle part as it is, and said thus as saint Austen doth (they were saved by the same faith) we must needs have required the head of that body, and asked of him, which they? For thou mayst well perceive, that saint Austen would not have said, they, (which hath relation to some other word) except he had put somewhat before, unto the which he doth refer it. And that was nothing else, but (as it appeareth in his own plain words) the old just men, from whom (he saith) there was some thing hid. again likewise, we must have required also the ta●●e of that body to, and have asked of him, which same faith is that? for this word, the same, must needs be referred to somewhat, before or after, or else it can have no sense: And there is nothing before, that it can be referred unto. wherefore it is declared by that, which cometh after, and that is the same faith, which (as saint Austen saith) was to be revealed, when the time thereof came. Now for all that this is the principal place of saint Austen, wherein Frith hath his great and most singular trust, for the special defence and chief proof of his foundation, yet if there be any spark of good will and wit in the at all, thou mayest clearly perceive and see, not only how nothing it maketh for him, but also how clean it maketh directly against him, and overthrowth his purpose quite: ye and farther, how invincibly it doth declare and prove that to be true, which I have said unto the all ready concerning the same. For doubtless this is the place (as he saith himself) whereof he doth (after his fashion) gather and say, The same faith shall save us, which saved the old fathers before Christ's incarnation.  
Where as saint Austen saith, (if thou mark him well) that they were saved, by the same faith, wherein was some thing hid from them. And again, by the same faith, which was to be revealed, when the time thereof came: which was not in their days: but (as he saith) when the mediator was made manifest, and would the sacrament of our regeneration to be manifest: And that was not before Christ's incarnation. Wherefore thou mayest now even here perceive, by the plain words of saint Austen himself, directly against Frithes purpose how the old father's faith and ours, doth both differ, and not differ, not differ in respect of the whole, considered in general: And yet much differre, in respect of the partis considered in special. For by the plain words of saint Austen, there was some thing hid from them, that is not hid from us: And some thing revealed to us, that was not revealed to them. And yet one and the same faith in respect of the whole confusely together: and not one, nor the same neither, in respect of the parts considered a sunder. Wherefore, of that which was hid from them, and now revealed unto us, why may not this holy sacrament, with the belief thereof be a part, as well as the sacrament of baptism is: if there be no reason nor truth to the contrary, as there is not in deed, where is Frithes foundation become? Therefore shall I need now to ask the any more, why Frith doth not here allege saint Austin's own words, first in latin, and then in English, as he doth in other places, but leaveth them both clean out as he doth? I think thou seest the cause why well enough now thyself: If not, how sayest thou to such a fellow as bringeth in a witness, and when the witness should speak, he will not suffer him to tell his tale?  HERALD 
I say he seemeth not all the best.  CATH. 
Nay, if he seem not to thee, a very false harlot, yet will I say plain, that he is no less, when he trusteth more in the name of his witness, then in his tale.  HERALD 
As ye say, there is somewhat in that.  CATH. 
Then farther, how sayest thou to that fellow, which in his cause, would pike out such a witness for him, as when he cometh to the herring, would and must needs tell the tale clean against him?  HERE. 
Marry sir, I say, he were a very fool to those his witness so.  CATH. 
Yet may his witness be wise for all that. And therefore when the one of these fellows playeth (as thou sayest) the false harlot, and the other the very fool, is it not here properly handled of Frith alone, to play no less, than both those partis in one? And to have S. Austen his witness in each of them to?  HERE. 
How so?  CA: 
First it appeareth plain, that S. Austen for his witness he bringeth in, and leaveth his tale behind him clean, because he would not have that come to hearing in no condition: For else, he might have brought them, both together, even as well the one as the other. But that he would in no wise do, because he knew the name of his witness, might in his cause seem to do somewhat, where as his very tale withal, could in deed do nothing, but mar altogether. And therefore to brag out the matter, forth he cometh with his bare witness whom he keepeth clean in silence, as untrusty to talk in his cause, while he telleth of his own head, all the whole tale, and maketh up the evidence himself. Wherefore because he faceth us after this sort, saying, The first part of mine argument is proved by saint Austen ad Dardanum. And I dare boldly say almost in an hundredth places. For I think there be no proposition, which he doth more often inculcate then this, that the same faith saveth us, which saved our fathers.  
I say, because he faceth us after this sort, with such a worthy credible witness, and yet, when all cometh to all, would not suffer us, (by his will) to hear him speak, nor him, as who say, to tell his own tale, neither in this named, nor yet in any other of those hundredth incertain places beside, what shall we, or can we make of him else, but even as he maketh of himself, a very false harlot in deed? And therefore as touching the other part of his play; what a fool was he, to choose saint Austen among all other, to be his witness herein? when there was none more unmeet for his purpose than he, as belike he did suspect, and yet would have him nevertheless, for his foolish fancy: trusting that with the sound of his name to do somewhat: whereas with his whole saying he could do nothing: But yet not withstande all his great shift made, to keep him from hearing, (wherein he showeth himself as he is) yet was he brought by mean unto it at last, and then told his tale so directly, against the perverse purpose of Frithes wicked folly, that nothing could be said more plain to the contrary, as thou hast now heard thyself already. Wherefore consider, that thou haste here now, for one piece of thy frendis falsehood, such a manifest proof, as I dare say neither thou, nor any friend that he hath beside, is able to cast any colour of excuse thereupon: except it be, with tush tush, no no, or some other wriggling and startling talk, from one thing to an other, till undiscussed the matter be wrappeth up even all confusely together, as your common practice is alway to do: Therefore let this be sufficient, as it is in deed, to know what he is.   

Cap. 19  HERE. 
Nay sir not so. For he would not call it the very foundation of all his matter, if he had not somewhat else, to make for him then all this.  CA 
I pray thee what is that?  HERALD 
No less than an other saying of saint Austen, which maketh as well for him as any thing that ye heard yet.  CA 
I think thou saidst not a truer word to day.  HERALD 
Nay sir, I wots what you mean by that well enough: but I mean this, that it maketh for him very well.  CA 
Who would believe that, knowing so much as thou hast herd?  HERALD 
That is no matter saint Austin's words (he saith) be these. As many as in that manna, did understand Christ, did eat the same spiritual meat that we do. But as many as sought only to fill and satisfy their hunger with that manna, did eat and are dead. And likewise the same drink. For the stone was Christ.  CATH. 
What I pray thee, will Frith make of this?  HERE. 
Marry sir ye shall here his own words.  
Here you may gather (he saith) of saint Austen, that the manna was unto them, as the bread is unto us. And likewise that the water was to them, as the wine is to us: which anon shall appear more plainly.  CA 
So it had need. For he sendeth us here to a gathering, wherein I see not what we can gather more truly, then even the same of him, that we have gathered before.  HERE. 
No sir, for he doth allege, that saint Austen saith further these words: Moses also did eat manna, Aron, and Phinees did eat of it: and many other did there eat of it, which pleased god, and are not dead. Why so? Because they understood the visible meat spiritually. They were spiritually an hungered, they tasted it spiritually, that they might spiritually be replenished: they did all eat the same spiritual meat, and all did drink the same spiritual drink, Even the same spiritual meat, albeit an other bodily meat. For they did eat manna: and we eat an other thing: but they did eat the same spiritual, which we do. And they all drank the same spiritual drink. They drank one thing, and we an other, but that was in the outward appearance: which for all that did signify the same thing spiritually, how drank they the same drink? They (saith the apostle) drank of the spiritual stone following them, and that stone was Christ.  
Now sir all this doth he allege of saint Austen.  CA 
Yea, but dost thou recite it truly, as he doth allege it?  HERALD 
Even as he doth translate it out of latin into english, look in his book when ye will. And therefore what say ye to it?  CA 
This same I sai to it, that all this same difficulty of this same point, after this same manner, is put this same way, clean out of doubt, if men take this same truth, as it is in deed, that this same error, of this same fellow, made him of this same blindness, that he was of this same judgement, that this same word, the same: could none otherwise be understand, but even the same way, that he thought the same should draw men, from the same faith, which all true christian people doth hold, & bring them into the same heresy, which the same Frith himself doth teach. And all this same (I say) did he, by reason of this same word the same. For is he not as one in a maze, now in the same path, where he began? And therefore even just in the same case, that he was then? For is there any other cause, why he doth allege these words of saint Austen, but that he saith they did eat and drink the same spiritual meat & drink, that we do? For what if saint Austen had put this word: an other: in the place of this word the same? or else had left them both clean out?  HERALD 
Sir that had been an other matter: it had been then, nothing for Frithes purpose. And therefore he would not alleged it, if it had been so.  CA 
Thou sayst very true. And therefore all that seemeth herein, any thing to make for him, thou mayest well perceive, doth only rest (as I said) in this same word, the same. And hast thou not herd enough, what a proper principle it is, being undefined, to prove or conclude any thing by? Nevertheless, When Frith himself doth take this same spiritual meat and drink, to be the body & blood of Christ, as in the iiii. leaf of his book, his own words thereof are these, This Abraham (he saith) did both eat his body and ' drink his blood, through faith. '  
I would therefore wit of him, whether he take the same meat, & drink, to be only spiritual & not corporal: or else both spiritual & also corporal?  HERALD 
He doth take it to be both, & so do I  CA 
As how?  HERALD 
Even as he doth here allege of. S. Aust. that they did eat manna, and we an other thing? which things are both corporal, wherein, that same, which they did, and we do eat, is one spiritual meat: And therefore that, which they did, and we do eat, is both spiritual and corporal.  CATH. 
Thou playest Frith with me now in deed. For my question is one, and thou answerest me to an other. I ask not of their corporal meat, nor of ours nother, which to them was, and to us is, subject to the eye, and other outward senses: but I ask only of the spiritual meat, which was to them and is to us (as saint Austen saith) all one and the same. Therefore whether that be only spiritual, and not corporal, or else both corporal and spiritual, is my question.  HERE. 
What if he say it be only corporal, and not spiritual?  CATH. 
Then is he directly against saint Paul in his first epistle, and xv. chapter to the corinthians.  HERE. 
What if he say it be only spiritual, and not corporal?  CATH. 
Then he is directly against the verity of Christ's body. And therefore I would wit what he would say to my question?  HERE. 
He would say, it was spiritual in the old father's days before thincarnation: And now corporal.  CATH. 
What, only spiritual then, and only corporal now?  HERE. 
Nay, only spiritual then, and both spiritual and corporal now? 
1. Co. 15   CATH. 
Then he can not deny, but that same meat, is both so, and otherwise now, than it was then, when it was then but only spiritual, and now both spiritual and corporal.  HERE. 
That I grant.  CATH. 
Therefore sith it is both so, and also otherwise now, than it was then: why should it not be so, and otherwise eaten now, than it was eaten then? For it was not then, the same it is now, really in deed. And yet is it now, the same it was then, virtually in effect. Wherefore there must be a correspondence between the very present state of the meat, and the very eating thereof even now, as there was then. And therefore when saint Austen (after the mind of the apostle) speaketh here only of that eating, which is according to the meat, as it was then virtually in effect, and not of that eating, which is according to the meat, as it is now really in deed: what maketh he for Frithes purpose?  HERE. 
It maketh for him this: That as they did eat the same spiritual meat, which we do now, and were saved by the belief and feithe thereof, as well as we are: so, Frith would have it follow, that we are not bound to believe any other manner of eating of the same meat, beside the outward appearance, than they were then, because the same faith (he saith) saveth us, which saved them.  CATH. 
As touching the same faith, thou haste herd enough already, of his foolish and false understanding thereof. And therefore to the rest. True thou sayest, that he would have it so follow in deed, but by what rule? by what congrevence? by what reason? is there any rule or reason other, to lead us to this consequence, that because they did eat the same spiritual meat that we do, we should not therefore be bound to the belief of any other usage, manner, or difference of eating that holy meat now, than they were then, before Christ's incarnation, when the blessed meat in itself, is far otherwise now, than it was then? and when we have also now, an other manner of doctrine taught us, of Christ himself, concerning the same, than ever they had then? how far were this against reason?  HERE. 
Yet was it the same meat then, that it is now. And therefore the same now, that it was then.  CATH. 
True it is. And yet say I, it was not then, as it is now, nor is not now, as it was then.  HERE. 
How can that be?  CA 
Very well. For as I told thee before, it was then only spiritual and not corporal, but so it is not now. For now it is both spiritual and corporal, and so was it not then: wherefore as it may be said, and was then, the same and not the same, that it is now: So it may be said and is now, the same and not the same, that it was then: which is to be understand in the diversity of the respects, that is to say, of the spirituality, and the corporalitee. whereof saint Austen touching here but the one, Frith with the same, would deceive us in both. For else he would or should have made it first certain, whether saint Austen did here mean the same spiritual meat, really in deed, or else the same but virtually in effect, before he had attempted any conclusion thereupon. And therefore because he doth now here again, leave the certainty of the meaning of this fame word, the same, so doubtful and indefined, as he did before, (the whole pith of his purpose consisting therein) clear it is, that nothing thereof can justly follow, nor be certainly proved thereby, as thou thyself hast sufficiently seen and heard already. How be it, the certainty of a ground, to reason upon, is no matter with Frith.  
For he will first conclude, what so ever he doth intend,  
And with an incertain principle so make up the end,  
As though even where in very deed, doth lie no less than all  
There were even utterly to be found no matter at all.  
And while there be few, of whom this falsehood is perceived,  
Small wonder it is, though many be therewith deceived.  
He asketh no more of all his diligent readers,  
But that they should be well way of all those same sophisters:  
wdich will make them perceive him, one of those same warrears,  
That are of all other, the chief spiritual murderars.  
Be ware of sophistry, and sophisters, beware crieth he:  
Yet any one man that useth it more, didst thou never see.  
And therefore even now of him, what a sophister find we,  
But one of the very worst, that is possible to be?   

Cap. 20.  HERE. 
What sir, me think your talk runneth now in rhyme:  CA 
That is no matter, so long as it runneth not against reason.  HERALD 
Whether it do or no, yet it pleaseth not my fantasy.  CA 
Why so.  HERE. 
What needeth any rhyme, when reason may well be without it?  CA 
Canst thou not tell what need?  HERALD 
No not yet.  CA 
Then thou meruelst at me, why I do put them together.  HERALD 
And even so I do in deed.  CATH. 
Therefore why doest thou not much more marvel at Frith, which refuseth to meddle with any of them both? In so much that rhyme, thou knowest he used none: And as for reason, how far it is from him, may well apere by his manifest falsehood an lack of truth: Wherefore except thou wilt say, that reason may be in falsehood, and where truth is absent: thou shalt surely find in him, as it is sometime said of an other, that all his talk runneth clean without rhyme or reason. And therefore where as I might have, somewhat else to say, as touching the manner of his allegation of saint Austen, in these two later places, yet because he hath no reason to lay to the contrary but that they make no less than far from his purpose, I will pass them over with that I have said already, & go to that, which he bringeth in of. S. Beda: whose few words in latin are these. Videte autem fide manente signa variata." This turned into english: is none other to say, but behold   

Cap. 21.  HERE. 
Sir that shall ye do. For consequently in the same. v. leaf of his book, these be his words. Of those places (he saith) you may plainly perceive, not only that it is none article necessary to be believed under pain of damnation, seeing the old fathers never believed it, and yet did eat Christ in faith, both before they had the manna, and more expressly through the manna: And with no less fruit after the manna was ceased. And albe it the manna was to them as the sacrament is to us, and they eat even the same spiritual meat that we do yet were they never so mad, as to believe, that the manna was changed into Christ's own natural body: but understood it spiritually, that as the outward man did eat the material manna, which comforted the body: so did the inward man through faith eat the body of Christ, believing that as manna came down from heaven and comforted their bodies: so should their saviour Christ, which was promised them of god the father, come down from heaven, and strength their souls in everlasting life, redeeming them from their sin by his death and resurrection. And likewise do we eat Christ in faith, both before we come to the sacrament, and more expressly through the sacrament. And with no less fruit after we have received the sacrament, and need no more to make it his natural body, than the manna was, but might much better understand it spiritually: that as the outward man doth eat the natural bread, which comforteth the body: so doth the inward man through faith eat the body of Christ, believing, that as the bread is broken, so was Christ's body broken on the cross for our sins, which comforteth our souls unto life everlasting. And as that faith did save them, without believing that manna was altered into his body: even so doth this faith save us: although we believe not, that the substance of bread is turned into his natural body. For the same faith shall save us which saved them. And we are bound to believe no more under pain of damnation, than they were bound to believe.  
Now sir this is part of his mind.  CA 
Thou sayest even truth. And therefore if thou mark it well (somewhat after his own words: thou mayest of this place plainly perceive, not only by the presence of this word, not only, but also by the absence of this word, but also, that he at the first, intended to show us two things. The one of the which, noted with this word not only, he hath here (as thou seest) declared all ready, But the other depending thereupon, and aught to be noted with this word, but also, he doth utterly pass over and let it clean go. For he runneth so wondrous fast, and can not tell whither, that he forgetteth the one end of his tale, while he telleth us the other: or else he doth purposely reserve and keep it in store, till he speak with us himself, to show us that and more.  HERE. 
Tush sir ye do but mock him now.  CATH. 
Why countreiman what wouldest thou have me do? For to pity him, thou knowest well, it is to late: To praise him there is in deed no cause: To hold my peace in this matter were to far against conscience. And what remaineth, but alway to speak as he doth minister occasion? Therefore where he saith, that the old fathers were never so mad, as to believe that the manna was changed into Christ's own natural body: for what purpose doth he tell us that, when every man koweth it as well as he?  CA 
I shall tell you for what purpose: he would have us take the bread as the fathers took the manna. And as they were never so mad, as to believe that the manna was changed in to Christ's own natural body: so he would not have us so mad, as to believe, that the substance of bread is changed into Christ's natural body neither. For the same faith (he saith) shall save us which saved them.   

Cap. 22.  CATH. 
Thou sayest well, for that is his purpose in deed. And therefore as touching his principle of the same faith, I have told the enough before. And as concerning this changing he speaketh of, thou and I will talk thereof at large, when we come to the place convenient. Therefore now to this that he doth here account all those, which believe, that the substance of the bread, by the operation of the holy ghost, in the holy consecration is changed into the very body of Christ, to be mad in so doing, who be they? but all Englishmen, Welshmen, Irishmen, Frenchmen, Scots, Danes, Douchmen, Spaniards, Portugese's, Italians, with all other true Christian nations? for doubtless all those do so believe.  HERE. 
Nay sir not all. For all can not be said, of Englishmen only: nor yet of divers other particular nations beside. For some among them believe otherwise.  CA 
And prettily spoken. For is it said amiss, that such and such fields are all corn, because they are not each of them without some and to much darnel in and among them? what if there be found such to many, as Frith was, among Englishmen? and other true Christian nations beside? doth that let the truth of this, that all those nations believe otherwise then he did: that is to say, that the very substance of the bread (through the operation of the holy ghost, in the holy consecration) is turned into the very blessed body of Christ? all those multitudes, Frith (thou seest) doth reckon therein to be mad. He doth not except all, or any, true christian princes: about whom there lacketh not men, in wit, gravity, and learning, of the best sort that may be had: which seem not of all men to be lightly deceived: whereof in this matter specially, they are utterly most loath. Therefore doth the sadness of Frithe, show us madness in all christian princes, in all their prudent and wise councillors: and in all their multitudes of people's innumerable under them? or else doth not the sadness of all those, show us the wonderful madness of him? I require no answer of this, but consider it well with thyself. And therefore what is there more in all his words, which thou hast here rehearsed, but only his own swasions: and foolish continual dancing about this same word the same? wherewith thou seest he would conclude & confirm what so ever he babbled before. Nevertheless, yet forth he goeth, showing us in the sixth lief of his book after his fantasy, how the old fathers did believe, saying: There is no point in our Creed, but they believed it, as well as we do: and those articles only, are necessary unto salvation.  
Who hath herd such an other teacher? For of this, it must needs follow, that it is not necessary unto salvation, to believe that Christ is equal with the father. For which of the xii articles is that? Those xii only (he saith) are necessary unto salvation. And this, that Christ is equal with the father, is none of the xii  
Wherefore the belief thereof is not necessary unto salvation. Also it is not necessary unto salvation, to believe it a damnable thing, to pervert and depravate the hard sayings of saint Paul and other scriptures (although saint Peter doth say the contrary) because it is none of those xii articles, 
2. Pe●…  which he saith are only necessary unto salvation. And to be short, we may deny by his doctrine all the whole scripture, those xii articles of our Crede excepted, if they only (as he saith) be necessary unto salvation. For what so ever is not necessary to salvation, may be unbelieved without any danger of damnation. This doth he somewhat more plainly declare immediately himself saying these words: But the other points contained in scripture, although they be undoubted verities, yet may I be saved without them.  
What is, this same, saved without them, but saved without the belief of them? That is to say, although they be never so true, and that of most worthy things.  
Yet I need not believe them. Therefore when he noteth, all Christian princes, and all Christian people, to be mad, for their belief, which they have in the blessed sacrament: how much may we note him, more than mad, that will believe and so say, that he may be saved without the belief of all or any verities contained in scripture, beside those same xii expressed in the Crede?  HERE. 
Sir I suppose that Frithe would soon avoid all these absurdites, which ye do gather to follow of his words: and say that the verity of Christ's equality with the father, and such other verities, as ye speak of, are privily contained in the xii articles of our Crede, & believed in them, although they do not therein, expressly and distinctly apere.  CATH. 
Nay nay country man, never suppose, that he would say so. For than would I quickly answer him and say, as the truth is in deed, that the verity of this holy sacrament, which he denieth, is one of them, and that it was contained and hid in the old father's faith, as many other verities were confusely, to be revealed and brought to light distinctly, when their time thereof should come, which was by the coming of our saviour Christ. Therefore with this, Frithes mowthe were soon stopped, if he would say so. But he was ware of this well enough: And provided for it thereafter, that men should not take him so to mean. For else when he saith those articles only, are necessary to salvation, he would not have added this unto it, saying: The other points contained in scripture, although they be undoubted verities, yet may I be saved without them.  
Therefore who hath heard of such a doctor, that will not deny, but all the points of scripture, are undoubted verities: And yet will hold, that we are not bound to the belief of any more of them but only twelve? I could never here of any verity of the scripture (as there be in it none other) but who so ever would not believe it, he was utterly therein no less than an heretic: But this man is, and so teacheth other to be, at liberty with them all, only twelve except.  HERE. 
It may so be, well enough, in certain cases.  CATH. 
What cases, I pray thee be they?  HERE. 
He doth forthwith declare ii or iii himself.  CATH. 
Then let me here them.  HERE. 
They be even these.  
As be it in case (he saith) that I never heard of them. '  
There is one.  
Or when I here of them, I can not understand them, ' nor comprehend them. '  
There is an other  
Or that I hear them, and understand them, and yet ' by reason of an other text misconstrew them. '  
There is the third.  CATH. 
A, be these the cases, wherein men be not bound to believe any verities of scripture more than those xii. expressed in the Crede?  HERE. 
So saith he.  CATH. 
Then say I, that if thou mark it well in his first and second case joined together, he doth put, whether he do hear them, or not here them. And in the second, and third case, whether he understand them or not understand them: So that he doth not put these cases, but only to th'intent that in every case, he might avoid and clean exclude, the need of all the verities of scripture, save only twelve. For when he saith he may be saved without them, whether he hear them or here them not: and whether he understand them, or understand them not. And therefore after his own doctrine, whether he believe them, or believe them not? What need maketh he of any of them all, but meaneth away with them clean in every condition. For if he may be saved without them (as he saith he may) than it is clear, that he hath no need of them. If he have no need of them: doubtless he hath no need to believe them. Therefore if he have no need to believe them: in very deed, he hath less need to understand them (for more necessary is belief, then is understanding in things of our faith) and therefore if he need not believe them, nor understand them, plain it is, that he needeth not so much as hear them (for what should he here, that he needeth not believe) Therefore if he need not so much as hear them, he hath utterly no need of them at all: if he have no need of them at all: then be they (as he would make them in deed) no parts of the faith at all: except he will say (as he doth so much as it cometh to) that all the most part of the faith need not to be herd: And consequently, nor believed neither. Thus are we clearly discharged of all the verities of scripture, save only twelve in every condition whereof he might be asked this pretty question, why they were written? But how so ever this devilish doctrine behaveth itself: what other thing is the faith of Christ, but all the verities of scripture? And contrary wise, what other thing are all the verities of scripture, but the faith of Christ? Therefore when all the verities of scripture, are contained in the faith of Christ (as it is one of them so to believe) And the faith of Christ (as I showed thee yesterday) can not be truly had, but all whole together: It must needs follow, that who so ever hath truly the faith of Christ, hath also therein no less than all the verities of scripture. Falls therefore is the doctrine of Frith, that saith, we may be saved without them all, save only twelve: when the faith cannot be truly had, without them all. More over, how sayest thou to this: is it not a necessary verity unto salvation, to believe that the commandments of god are good, and aught to be kept?  HERE. 
Sir what question is that: there is no man doth doubt therein.  CATH. 
And is there any peril in it, if a man do not so believe it?  HERE. 
In very deed no less than damnable.  CATH. 
Take heed, perchance thou wottest near what thou sayest.  HERE. 
Why what?  CATH. 
Utterly that Frith is a falls liar: when he saith, those articles of our Crede, are only necessary unto salvation. For which is it of those xii to believe, that the commandments of god be good, and aught to be observed and kept, or that there is any peril in it: if we do not so believe? Those xii only be necessary, saith he. This verity thou seest is none of them (although as all other, it may be reduced unto them) which he will none of in any case, lest that, which he laboureth to overthrow, should so by that means, be brought in likewise: after his mind therefore without this, we may be saved. That is to wit, without the belief, that the commandments of god be good, or aught to be observed & kept: who will not see, that this were enough, to declare what a teacher he is? or who hath so dull a wit, that he can not perceive how devilish his purpose is? and it were but only by this, that he can find no way to come to it, but only by such damnable paths as this is? Behold how feign he would prove it no need, so to believe in the blessed sacrament of the altar, as all true Christian people believeth: In very deed so feign, that, to bring it to pass with all, he sticketh not here (as thou seest thyself) to leave us clean without the need of any, and of all the verities of holy scripture, more than bore xii for in those xii verities of our Crede, he thought surely, that this verity of the blessed sacrament could not be found. And therefore he doth say: that they only are necessary unto salvation, to th'intent he might utterly thereby exclude the need of this, which he would so clean put away, that even for that cause, he excludeth no less, than all the rest, saying: The other points contained in scripture, although they be undoubted verities: yet may I be saved without them.  
And this he declareth in every condition, that is to say, whether he believe them or not: whether he understand them or not, and whether he misconstrew them or not: All these I say (saith he) may be done without any jeopardy of damnation.   

Cap. 23.  HERE. 
Ye but sir, ye must take his conclusion with all.  CATH. 
What is that?  HERE. 
Marry this: Therefore we believe (he saith) these articles of our Crede: in the other is no peril, so that we have a probable reason to dissent from them.  CATH. 
Doubtless a conclusion even like himself. How be it I muse not so much thereat, nor yet at him neither, as I do even at thee.  HERE. 
At me, why so?  CATH. 
Without fail, because thou doest no more wonder at his blind madness, or mad blindness, choose thee whether. How be it I do partly consider the cause. For surely if thou thyself were not by him, somewhat cumbered with the same cloud of darkness, wherein he was involved and wrapped himself, thou shouldest easily, beside his wily wickedness, perceive him tumbled into the greatest foolishness that ever thou sawest any man. For when he saith, in the other is no peril, so that we have a probable reason to dissent from them, may not I say: O foolish Frith, what if we have none, nor none can have? how then? how is it possible to have any probable reason to dissent from any verities most special & above all, from any verities of holy scripture? For what reason is there probable in deed, but only that, which is true in deed? and can any one truth be against an other? Therefore if thou mark this matter well, thou shalt find, that by these words, he setteth us even at as much liberty, with our faith in all the xii verities of our Crede, as he doth in all the other. For in them is no peril neither, so that we have a probable reason to dissent from them.  HERE. 
Why sir, we may not dissent from them in no wise.  CATH. 
What not with a probable reason? what thing is there, that a probable reason doth not bind me to do? For what is a probable reason, but that, which may justly be proved to be true. And shall not truth lead me truly to and fro in every condi●ion?  HERE. 
Ye but there can be no such probable reason, to lead as from those verities of our Crede.  CATH. 
Why not from them, as well as from the other verities of scripture beside? be they more true, than any of the other are? How be it, thou speakest this of thine own head. For Frith saith no more, but that we may dissent from all the verities of scripture, save xii so that we have a probable reason thereto. And I say the same, by that reason, of those xii. also, if we have a probable reason thereto: For what ought I to refrain, which a probable reason will lead me unto? am I not alway bound unto truth? and what other thing is a probable reason? Therefore it must needs follow by his reason, that in these verities of our Crede, is no peril, so that we have a probable reason, to dissent from them. Thus taketh he from us, the need of all the verities of scripture, save xii so that by the same reason he taketh away the need of them to. And therefore he seemeth to except them in words, but not in deed.  HERE. 
Yes sir, for else he would not say this. Those articles are only necessary unto salvation. For them am I bound to believe, and am damned without excuse, if I believe them not.  CATH. 
What of this? thou thinkest by reason of these words, that he goth about to make us believe, that we be bound to the verities of our Creed.  HERE. 
what else? For what purpose should he speak it, but for that? or to show us, how he doth believe them himself.  CA 
I thought even as much, when he intendeth none of them both. For his purpose is not to make us believe them, but only to make us to believe no more. For, to go about to make us believe so much, is one thing, and to go about to make us believe no more, is an other thing. Therefore his intent is (as who say) there to stop in our faith, that it should go no farther, and not to bring it thither, nor there to uphold it. For although his blindness be so great and manifest, that even the very same, which he laboureth to improve and overthrow, he confesseth to be a verity of scripture (or else would he never call it an article of our faith, as in the xvi leaf of his book he doth in deed) saying these words.  
For though it be an article of our faith, yet it is not an article of our Creed, in the xii articles, which are sufficient for our salvation.  
Although his blindness (I say) be so great, that he himself doth confess this a verity of scripture, which he laboureth so sore to improve: yet because he thought it could not be found among the xii verities of our Crede even therefore would the catchpoule, as it were in a pinfold, pin up therein our faith, from all the verities of scripture beside: and all to th'intent it should not come at this verity of the holy sacrament, and that for the special hatred he beareth unto it. How be it in so saying I confess myself somewhat to large. For why should I say, that he beareth a special hatred against this blessed verity, when he serveth them all a like? yet am I therein somewhat to rash to. For why should I say, that he serveth them all a like, when he would slay all those for this, and not this for them, but this for itself. not much unlike unto him, which for the malice he bore against one innocent, slew an whole multitude. 
Mat. ●   
But as that Herode miss his purpose of that one, whom he principally intented, and (to his own perdition) was but a mean of bringing all the residue to a far more clearer light than they had before. Even so I doubt not of this Herode likewise, but that he shall miss his purpose of this one verity, which to destroy he doth chiefly intend. And also in the multitude of other beside (although to his own perdition) be but a mean of bringing them to a more clear light of knowledge in many one than ever they had before. That Herode & this, although persecutors both, and both of Christ, wherein they 'gree. Yet in the manner of their persecution, somewhat they differ. For that Herode did persecute him directly, and apertly: but this Herode, consequently & occultly, under & with the pretence, of the contrary. That Herode, sent men to find him where he was not, but this Herod sendeth men to lose him where he is. Also that Herod laboured to make him be taken, but this Herode, laboured to make him forsaken. He with manifest cursedness: & this with false feigned holiness, He with cruel tyranny: & this with wicked heresy. Therefore what so ever this young Herode doth say, as touching the verities of our Crede, never think, that he speaketh it to make us believe it, nor yet to show, that he believeth it himself. For that he saith, is only to make us believe no more, for less he thought he could not. And therefore he supposing, that if he might stop our faith therein, from going any farther, he might then bring his wicked purpose to pass well enough. And to be sure thereof, he would by such a rule, discharge us of our faith in all the verities of scripture, save only these xii of our Crede, as would lead us even likewise, from the faith of them to: when he saith,  
In the other is no peril, so that we have a probable reason' to dissent from them. '  
This probable reason (as I have told thee) is able to discharge us of all manner of things none except, wherein so ever it may be had. And therefore as well of all the verities of our Crede, as of any other verities of scripture beside.   

Cap 24.  HERE. 
Sir, I do now perceive, that all this while, ye take one probable reason for an other, and not that probable reason, which Frith speaketh of.  CATH. 
Ha, what sayst thou? I pray the tell me that again.  HERALD 
Marry sir I say, the probable reason that Frith speaketh of, is not the same, that ye take it for.  CATH. 
Trowest thou so?  HERE. 
No truly.  CA 
What is it then  HERALD 
Ye know well enough, that there be two manner of probable reasons: of the which, the one hath in it a truth inevitable. And therefore it is or may be called a probable reason existent. The other hath in it no truth in deed, yet is it so like to be true, that it is very hard to avoid, or to be otherwise perceived or taked but for true in deed. And therefore it is, or may be called a probable reason, apparent: but not existent.  CATH. 
I can thee thank countryman, it is even very well said. And therefore dost thou think, that it is this probable reason, which is but apparent, that Frith speaketh of?  HERE. 
Yea truly that I do.  CATH. 
Why so?  HERE. 
For it can not stand with any reason, that it should be the other probable reason, which is true, because (as I now perceive myself) one truth can never lead us to dissent from an other, but rather bind us unto it.  CATH. 
Doubtless therein thou hittest the nail even upon the head: And therefore by that just and good reason, it doth well apere, that when frith (speaking of charticles of our Creed) doth say.  
In the other is no peril, so we have a probable reason to dissent from them.  
It is not that probable reason, which hath in it the very truth in deed. But it is that probable reason, which is but only apparent, and doth but only seem to be true & nothing else▪ therefore what so ever doth but only seem to be true, without fail is not true in deed. And what so ever is not true in deed, and yet seemeth to be true, is utterly nothing else, but even a mean to deceive. And therefore the very conclusion is this, That where he saith, In the other verities of scripture is no peril, so we have a probable reason to dissent from them.  
It is no more to say, but in the other verities of scripture is no peril, so we have a deceitful mean to dissent from them, when a probable reason without truth is none other, but (as I said) a mean to deceive in deed.  HERE. 
Nay sir I can not yet for all this, believe that he meant so.  CATH. 
No? not when his own words compelleth us to take it so? For he can not speak of a probable reason, and mean it to be neither true nor false: except thou wilt say (as of many a one it is, when he speaketh he wotteh near what) that his wit is not his own. Therefore he meant it to be either true or false. If he meant it to be true: then is it as much to say, as in the other verities of scripture is no peril, so we have such a probable reason to dissent from them, as is not possible to be had. For it is not possible to have truth, against truth. Wherefore how foolish at the least is he, to suggest unto us, any such case? Therefore of the other side, if he meant a probable reason but apparent, and not true in deed: Then is it no more to say but this, In the other verities of scripture is no peril, so we have that probable reason to dissent from them, which is so ready and easy to be had, that all we ought, to bliss us from it.  HERE. 
Bliss us from it, what need that?  CATH. 
Needeth it not, to bliss us from that probable reason, which might lead us to dissent from any verity of scripture? For what is the scripture but godis word? therefore what is any verity of scripture, but the verity of gods word? And what probable reason is that, which leadeth one to dissent from any verity of godis word, but only the falsity of the devils word? Yet herein, saith Frith, there is no peril. This thou seest, he moveth us unto. For with a probable reason (he saith) we may without any peril, descent from all the verities of scripture, save xii and I say, by that rule, from them to. Therefore, while Frith doth here in plain words, show us a way, to dissent from the verities of holy scripture, which is the word of god, what other thing therein doth he else, but utterly show us the way of the devil? How be it herein, he teacheth us but a point of his own faculty. For by this probable reason, found he the means, to dissent and come away from the verities of holy scripture himself. For else, without fail, he had bid in them still. By this probable reason also, riseth the first heretic of every sect. And by this probable reason, deceiveth he an other. By this probable reason gender they more and more. By this probable reason grow they, sometime to a multitude. And by this probable reason they continue, to the disquietness of the faithful flock of Christ. Also by this probable reason which is but apparent, which seemeth just, and is not, which promiseth truth, and payeth not, which beareth in hand to do, that it can not. By this probable reason (I say) heretics are enticed, persuaded, and led, from the verities of scripture, from the verities of godis word, and from the verities of everlasting life. And by this probable reason, they are provoked and set a work, to cry to the people, and say beware of deceivers, beware of false teachers, beware of subtle Sophisters. And what other thing therein do they else, but ignorantly and even directly against their own purpose, move the audience to be ware of them, & of no men else? For such and the same are they, & in deed none other. Therefore let us now return to his third case again, briefly to see what we left therein behind (he saith) Or be it in case, that I hear them, and understand them and yet by the reason of an other text misconstrew them Here he driveth me to such a straight, that I can not tell whether I may more wonder at him, or at his case. For tell me, if ever thou herdst of any such brain. How is it possible for any man to misconstrew the same, which he doth understand? Is it one thing to understand, and an other to know? Is any man therefore able to take a thing otherwise, than he knoweth it is? Doth not the knowledge or understanding of a thing, clean put away the misconstruing thereof? For whereof, cometh misconstruing, but of misunderstanding? nevertheless, Be it in case (he saith) that I understand them, and yet by the reason of an other text misconstrew them.  
Here thou seest plain, that he putteth understanding, and misconstruing, both together in one respect, and one case, and that by the reason (he saith) of an other text. Therefore whether he meaneth the verity of that other text, to be understanded, or not understanded, let us try what followeth of each of them, and then we shall be sure, to come to his meaning, at the least in one of them. Therefore if he mean it understanded, than this must follow, that the understanding of the verity of that same one other text, may put away the understanding of all the verities of scripture xii except: when it may, bring the understander to the misconstruction of them, as by his words it may, when of them all (he saith)  
Or be it in case that I hear them, and understand them, ' and yet by the reason of an other text misconstrew them. ' So that the true understanding of that same other text, is but a mean, to make the verities of all the rest to be misconstrued, and that of him that understandeth them. And what is that to say but this, that the true understanding of one text, may bring a man from the true understanding of of an other, when it bringeth him to the misconstrewing thereof? And therefore dost thou not see, what good reason and truth, he teacheth in this case? hast thou heard of this same lesson before that the true understanding of one text, should pluck away the true understanding of an other, from him that hath it? I have herd that the true understanding of one text, might induce and bring to light, the true understanding of an other: But I never herd afore now, that the true understanding of one, might misconstrew, & so put away, the true understanding of an other, when truth (as I told the before) is a mean to come by truth, & not a mean to misconstrew & put away truth. for so, were truth against truth, and understanding against understanding: And therefore Frith doth here to save all upright, make misconstruction, which is the great enemy of them both, to be as a stickeler between them: wherefore of the other side, if he mean that the verity of this other text which may make this misconstruction, is not understanded, then must this follow, that the ignorance, and not understanding of the truth of one text, may put away the knowledge and understanding of the truth of an other text, as it must needs do, if it may make it misconstrued, as Frith doth hold it may. And so shall blind ignorance be more mighty and able to expel and put away clear and perfit knowledge, from him that hath it, then perfect knowledge is able to expel and put away it: as though the ignorance of one thing, were the driver away of the knowledge of an other, which is an overthwart rule, contrary to all reason and truth. For it is the natural propertee and strength of knowledge, where so ever it cometh, to subdue and expel ignorance, and not of ignorance, to overthrow and expel knowledge. How be it I will not say. but ignorance may and commonly doth in many cases, keep truth from knowledge and understanding: but yet when and wherein so ever knowledge and understanding doth once get the victory, and obtaineth it in deed, ignorance then goeth straight to wreck, and is utterly put to flight, for any thing therein it can do more. wherefore, the truth of one text, understanded or not understanded, can never drive the truth of an other, out of understanding, as it might do, if it might drive it to misconstruction, as it can not, because there should be then (as I said) truth against truth, and understanding against understanding, which can not be. Therefore whether the truth of this other text, that Frith speaketh of, be understand or not understand, yet false is this his saying thereof, that it may cause the true understanding of an other text or verity of scripture, to be misconstrued of him that hath it, and so put away: when it is not possible for the true understanding of a thing, and the misconstruing of the same, to stand together, except Frith will say, that he can join them together this way, as when he understandeth a verity never so well, yet he can purposely misconstrewe the same nevertheless, to beguiled and deceive his neighbour withal, and bear him in hand, it is otherwise meant, than he himself, doth know it is.  HERE. 
What sir, ye do but taunt him now.   

Cap. 25.  CATH. 
Tawnte or tawnte not, thou shalt never find, how he can otherwise join them together when thou hast all done. And therefore, as a man so troubled and tired with this case of his own, that he woteth near which way to turn him, he giveth it over quite, and falleth to an other matter, even with these words: But now to return (he saith) to our purpose, if we will examine the authorities of saint Austen, & Beda before alleged, we shall espy, that beside the probation of this foresaid proposition: they open the mystery of all our matter, to them that have eyen to see:  
(Those he meaneth, which are as blind as he.)  
For saint Austen saith (saith he) that we and the old fathers do differ, as touching the bodily meat. For they eat manna, and we breadde.  
Now countreiman, because thou didst after his allegation recite the words of saint Austen unto me thyself. I pray thee hertily therefore remember them well, and tell me truly, whether saint Austen spoke there, so much as any word of bread, as this fellow doth now report him.  HERE. 
Sir therein to confess the truth, saint Austen saith, that the fathers did eat manna, and we an other thing. But in deed he hath not there this same word bread.  CATH. 
Thou mayest see therefore what a just part gentle Frieth plaith herein with saint Austen. He thought this word bread, would sound somewhat more for his purpose, than this word an other thing: which in deed soundeth toward it nothing at all. And therefore in the stead thereof, in with bread he cometh, but not by and by immediately after he rehearseth the words of saint Austen: but long after. For had he brought it in straight way, while the words of saint Austen were in the mind of the reader: he witted well enough, it would then be soon perceived and taken, not like a point of falsehood, but even as it is, for very one and the self same in deed. and therefore he falleth first in to a long babbling of his own fantastical invention. And afterward, when he supposeth the words of saint Austen somewhat grown out of remembrance with the reader: 
Then, in cometh the baker with his musty bread,  
And that he doth only, even of his own head  
without cause or request, made of any man,  
But only in lying, to show what he can.  
wherefore in few words, by my very assent,  
He shall for his great labour, be this content:  
what so ever other men say, or will think,  
To take his bread with him, and go ere he drink.   HERE. 
What sir me think ye fall to rhyming again.  CATH. 
In very deed, if thou were, so able to weigh and consider how wily and foolish his falsehood is, as some men are and doth in deed, I doubt not, but thou wouldest say thyself, that rhyming only, were good enough for him, although it were (as it is not here) without both reason and truth. For he that useth, (where alway two of them ought to be) nothing else but falsehood in deed, Is not even the least of them three, more than enough, and to good for him? How false doth he apere once again, in this report that he maketh here now of saint Austen? For could not saint Austen himself have put in this word bread: as well as this word, an other thing? if he had so meant, or had not seen some good cause to the contrary? was his mind so occupied in treating only of this matter, that he had forgotten the proper name of bread, which was most present ready and apt to be thought upon in this case? or could he not call that word to remembrance: because it was so strange and far out of use? He sticketh not at manna, but directly expresseth it with the proper name thereof: why stayeth he at this word bread, more than at that? was it more strange and farther out of use, than the manna was? why doth he touch this, with no proper name: but with a word commune, and indifferent, in manner to all things? would he refrain so ready a thing, and see no cause why? if he saw any, what was that? Frith will not put that in question unto us: he would not here of it: he had liefer have us forget it: it maketh not for his purpose, as hereafter it shall well apere.  HERE. 
Yet sir in some other places, saint Austen himself doth call it bread plainly.  CA 
Why therefore, doth Frith allege him so here, where he doth not so call it: & will not allege him there, where he doth call it so? what meaneth he by that? doth it signify nothing? I will well, that saint Austen so doth call it: & that divers times: but yet never without such a certain convenient circumstance with all, as declareth what he meaneth by it: which circumstance, Frith perceiveth to make no less against him, than this word bread, seemeth to sound with him. And therefore because the word and that circumstance, he can not find in saint Austen asunder, he therefore himself, would plant the one, in some other corner alone: as thou seest him here, this craftily assay, where he doth know, that circumstance to be away: And therefore this hast thou heard a great part of the very thing I may say unto thee, which (as he saith) doth open the mystery of all his matter, to them that have eyen to see: Although he meaneth but those (as I told thee before) which are as blind as he: wherefore, hast thou not now, even more then enough, to perceive what a goodly foundation of his this is, to build any good work upon?   

Cap. 26.  HERE. 
To say the truth, if it be no better than ye make it, he hath not laid it so deeply as I thought he had done:  CATH. 
Nay say not so, for he hath laid it no less deep, I may say to thee, then even down to the devil himself: And therefore find thou no lack in the deepness thereof: for deeper could no man lay it in deed, than he hath done: And yet not withstanding that, and all that I have declared thereof beside: Behold how he glorieth therein, and what a face he setteth upon it, as though there were no such matter at all: for in his preface and first lief of his book, where he speaketh of his first treatise, which he wrote in huckermucker, and not (as he confesseth himself) to be published abroad, he hath these words: But now it is commune (he saith) abroad in many men's mouths, in so much that master Moor which of late hath busied himself, to meddle in all such matters (of what zeal I will not difine) hath sore laboured to confute it, but some men think that he is ashamed of his part.  
And a little after, he addeth unto it these words.  
But this I am right sure of, that he never touched the foundation that my treatise was builded upon. And therefore sith my foundation standeth so sure, and invincible (for else I think verily he would sore have laboured to have undermined it) I will thereupon, build a little more: and also declare that his ordinance is to slender to break it down although it were set upon a worse foundation.  
Which I say is not possible to be had: and yet for all that in the third leaf. his words thereof be these: This was (he saith) the foundation of my first treatise, that he hath left unshaken: which is a great argument that it is very true. For else his pregnant wit could not have passed it so clean over. But would have assailed it with some sophistical cavellation which by his painted poetree, he might so have coloured: that at the lest he might make the ignorant some appearance of truth, as he hath done against the residue of my first treatise, which nevertheless is true, & shall so be proved. How it proveth, thou hast had a good say thereof already: And yet behold (as I said) how he glorieth therein, as though it were in very perfection, most sure and invincible: in so much, that with those terms he boasteth and setteth it out (as here thou seest) to the uttermost: when it is in deed no less, but even as far behind, as he would set it forward. And as for that he saith here, of master Moor, every man knoweth of his notable worthiness, what a singular man he was, both of wit and learning, and yet mark how lewdly this fellow doth here use him with nothing else, but very mocks taunts, and checks, thinking thereby to deface him, and set out himself: but which way that turneth, I suppose it no need to tell thee: Therefore I pray thee tell me, how cometh this to pass? that one having not half the wit or learning, that Frith was thought to have, before he fell to these foolish, fond, wicked, and erroneous opinions: can soon perceive so much folly and falsehood in his book, that there is in manner no lief without it, and yet he himself, could see thereof nothing at all? how (I say) cometh this to pass? May we not think, that he met with that faculty, which causeth it to be truly said of some man, that the longer he liveth, the more fool he waxeth? That is to say the more he taketh of it, the les wit he hath? for if he saw any falsehood therein, then went he wittingly about to deceive men: if he saw none, wherein is so much: what bitter smoke so troubled his eyes, that he could not espy some part thereof? was he not taken (trowest thou) into the weswarde tuition, of that dark and invisible tutor, which (for all thy saying) caused him therein to wander, he wi●● near whether? how may we think otherwise, if we with diligence prepende well the matter? For the very truth to say (as I told thee before, and now also again, to th'intent thou shouldest the better here it away, and keep it in mind) if the devil himself, were at the liberty, to be incarnate: And even so to come among us, only to entice and lead us from the belief of any article of our faith, let me see, how it were possible, for that father and fountain of all crafty falsehood, to invent for that purpose any manner of deceivable wile, comparable to this, which we find in Frith? That is to wit, to bear us in hand, that it is indifferent, and at our own liberty, to believe it or not: there is no peril in the matter, take which part we lust: for, by this persuasion, how many true men is there in a land, touched with never so little a need, that might not soon, be brought to stealing, if they were borne in hand, & so persuaded to think in deed, that it were an act indifferent and without all manner of peril to them that would use it? Ye what manner of evils are they, which some men (now full honest) would then forbear and refrain, if they thought, were therein to them no danger? or which way might they so easily be led unto them, as to be stiffly so borne in hand? ye make them but once believe that, and lead them no farther: for it shall then, be no need at al. a marvelous zeal of justice hath he, that would not soon play the thief at a companions request, if he were once brought in opinion, that therein could be, to him no manner of peril. Thus learned Frith (of whom so ever he was taught) to perceive, that he had a wondrous fast faith in this blessed sacrament, which would not soon be content to leave it, if he were once brought in opinion, that therein could come unto him no manner of displeasure. he saw it a matter of most difficult, to make Christian people leave any part of their faith directy: but he saw it again, a matter as easy, if they might once be made believe to be no peril therein, if they so did: full well he witted, bring them once to that opinion, and let them then alone themselves. For it should be enough, with the help of his own doctor of darkness, which taught him this lesson: for doubtless from whence it came, the thing itself, doth show and declare: wherefore of this his most perilous, crafty & wicked wiliness in this case, let this, with that I said thereof before, be a sufficient occasion for thee, well to prepende, mark and consider, both what it is, and whereof it came: For the more thou think upon it, the more thou shalt see in it: And the more thou shalt see in it, The more (I dare well say) thou shalt mislike it: ye and at length, even abhor it:  HERALD 
Ye do what ye can, to make a man abhor it in deed:  CATH. 
If I do otherwise, I should not do well: And therefore take thou good heed unto it, for it standeth thee so in hand:  HERE. 
Whether it do or not, I will not forget what ye say.   

Cap. 27.  CATH. 
Then of the other side, to grow to an end for this time, what shall I say, more than I have done, of his most fond, foolish, and blind falsehood? which appeareth so plain, in every thing, that he meddleth withal, that I can not well tell, what to say more, but that I am sure thou never sawest nor heardest of the like, nor no man else. For who but he, in a matter of our faith, would grant us a liberty to believe that, which he himself, doth not only, not believe, but also stiffly hold and say, that it is false, and no such thing in deed? And yet for all that, say, that it is an article of our faith to.  HERE. 
What sir, ye overcharge him now to far: for there is no man so mad, (I think) as to speak things, after such a sort:  CATH. 
If thou hadst excepted him, I would grant the fame.  HERE. 
Nay I will not except him, nor no man else herein.  HERE. 
Then against him, let us take none other, but even he himself to witness. For in the last lief of his book, where he calleth the changing of the substance of bread & wine into the very flesh & blood of our saviour Christ, at the time of the holy consecration thereof, the opinion of the prelate's, as though it were but their opinion, and nothing else, his own words be these.  
The cause why I can not (he saith) believe their opinion of transmutation, is this, first because I think verily that it is false, and can not be proved by scripture nor faithful doctors, if they be well pondered.  
Here thou feast plain of his own words, that he taketh this article to be utterly false, And yet he giveth us liberty and leave to believe it nevertheless: as it may and doth well apere, by this, that he (saying, neither part ought to despise other) will no more reprehend us therein, than he would that we should reprehend him in the contrary. For each (he saith) seeketh the glory of god: And therefore by that (as I towld the before) the one in a true faith & the other in a false, for both can not be true. Wherefore beside this, the very same, which he doth here say in plain words, that he thinketh verily to be false, he confesseth it as plain, to be an article of our faith, saying, Though it be an article of our faith, it is none of our Creed.  
Therefore by this it is clear, that although he denieth it an article of our creed. yet he confesseth it an article of our faith.  HERE. 
Ye but not necessary to be believed the saith) under pain of damnation.  CATH. 
Whether it be under that pain or no: yet an article of our faith (as the truth is in deed) he saith it is: And therefore say I, necessary to, for else it were but vain and superfluous, which to believe, were shame unto us, and disshonour to our faith, that it should contain any such thing.  HERE. 
Sir now I perceive that ye do not take this, that Frith doth say (not necessary) as he doth mean it.  CATH. 
How is that?  HERE. 
He meaneth it for indifferent and nothing else: for in the last leaf of his book save one, his words thereof be these.  
I think many men wonder (he saith) how I can die in this article, saying that it is no necessary article of our faith: I grant that neither part is an article necessary to be believed under pain of damnation, but leave it as a thing indifferent, to think therein as god shall instill in every man's mind, and that neither part condemn other for this matter, but each receive other in brotherly love.  
Here you may perceive that he meaneth by this word, not necessary, nothing else but indifferency.  CATH. 
I can the thank, it is a place well place out: wherein strife, consider upon what to quest he maketh his grant. And after that, when he saith, I leave it as a thing indifferent, tell me what meaneth he, by this same word, it? saying I leave it.  HERE. 
He meaneth the same that goeth before, when he saith, neither part is an article necessary. etc.  CATH. 
Then the sense of his words must needs be this, that he leaveth it, that is to say, neither part, as a thing indifferent: wherefore if he leave neither part, as a thing indifferent, than he leaveth both parts as things necessary: if he leave them both as things necessary, Then (to understand the best thereof) he leaveth the one part necessary to be taken, and the other as necessary to be forsaken, because the one is true and the other false. And therefore, where is now his indifferency become, that thou speakest of? or where is his principal purpose become, but by this clean overthrown?  HERE. 
I never herd one, turn a man's tale as ye do.  CATH. 
why so?  HERE. 
Because ye have brought it clean out of his meaning, and directly against the purpose he speaketh it for, as it doth well apere: for ye may be sure, he meant not so.  CA 
How then?  HERALD 
His meaning is this, that neither part, that is to say, neither of both parts, is an article necessary to be believed under pain of damnation, but each of them, is to be left as a thing indifferent to think therein as god shall instill in every man's mind.  CATH. 
And is this, his very meaning thinkest thou?  HERE. 
It can be none otherwise?  CATH. 
Then this indifferency he meaneth not to be of neither part: But to be of both partis  HERE. 
What else?  CATH. 
which both are they?  HERALD 
Both his part and yours.  HERE. 
His and ours, are clean contrary.  HERE. 
That is plain.  CATH. 
And even therefore so plain is this, that the one is true, and the other false.  HERE. 
That can not be denied.  CATH. 
Therefore this must needs be granted, that here he leaveth plain, both truth and falsehood at liberty, to be taken or forsaken, even together indifferently: and in the end knitteth up the knot, with the request of a brotherly love, to be had between them. Wherefore hast thou heard of such a stickler between truth and falsehood as this is? who would venture so arduous a matter, but he alone? how be it, his courage was such, that when he saw between truth and falsehood, that is to say between god and the devil, so great a controversy, as yet was never at rest, he thinking therein to win his spurs, would needs as a man indifferent, take up the matter between them, and make them shake hands, with a brotherly love. But yet because his indifferency was in this matter such, as did put no difference between those parties which are of so great and 〈◊〉 difference that is possible to be, Go● will therefore in no wife have him of his side, but refused him so clean, that he had been yet, as a masterless vacabond, if he had not been taken into service of the other side.  HERE. 
What sir me think ye talk your pleasure now at large.  CATH. 
In very deed no more at large, than thoccasion thereof doth justly require: for without question he was far to partial of the wrong side, to supple truth and falsehood together, with the strait narrow yoke of indifferency: he had forgot the gospel, wherein truth itself doth say, qui non est mecum, 
Mat. 12.  contra me est: That is to say, he that is not with me, is against me: wherein we find no mean allowed. Nevertheless although it be impossible for this same, with me, and against me, to join together by any mean in bede, yet Frith not therewith content, would needs thrust in no less than even indifferency, as a mean between them for all that, and so, couple them together according to his fantasy. But how he sped withal, somewhat thou feast, and more thou shalt: for what if I lay to his charge, that he doth here impute unto God, thynstilling as well of falsehood, as of truth into men's minds?  HERE. 
It shall not skill what ye lay to his charge, so ye prove it not in deed.   

Cap. 28.  CATH. 
Let me see how thou canst herein defend him. For doth he not say, I leave it as a thing indifference, to think therein as God shall instill in every man's mind?  HERE. 
So he saith, but what of that?  CATH. 
Soest thou not see it plain in those words, that he imputeth to God the instilling of that into every man's mind, which he meaneth by this word, therein? And again that he meaneth by this word, therein, none other, but together each part, both his and ours whereof he speaketh? and those parts of his and ours are so contrary, that the one must needs be true and the other false? wherefore he doth (I say) impute unto god, thinstiling of these two parts in every man's mind, as well the one as the other: so that he will have God thinstillar as well of falsehood, as of truth.  HERE. 
Tush sir this is to far wide.  CATH. 
Wherefore?  HERE. 
Because it neither doth, nor yet can follow so: for the sense of his words is this. I leave it (he saith) as a thing indifferent to think therein, that is to say, in each part, as god shall instill in every man's mind, that is to say, as God shall reveal unto them, which part hath the truth, and which hath not.  CATH. 
Thou sayest much for him, and as much as may be said: But yet it will not hold: for with his indifferency, he hath provided to much to the contrary: As it may somewhat apere by these words that he saith,  
As god shall instill in every man's mind. '  
He saith not in some men's minds. But he saith inevery man's mind. And the truth of this matter (as he holdeth himself) God doth not instill in every man's mind: wherefore his meaning must needs be of that instilling, which doth reach and extend farther than truth, or else it must needs come short of every man's mind. wherefore he doth here impute unto god, the instilling of more than truth, which can be none other but falsehood.  HERE. 
Sir I do marvel to here you speak, for Frith doth not here mean, every man generally, as ye take him: but he meaneth every man specially, as in whom, god shall instill the truth of this matter, and no farther.  CATH. 
He is much beholding unto thee: for he could say no better for himself. But yet it will not help: for the very same, that he calleth here indifferent, is neither more nor less, but even the same, that he leaveth to gods instilling in every man's mind. And that is plain to be both the partis of his belief and ours, in this article of the holy sacrament, whereof the one is true, and the other false. And those two partis doth he so glue together with indifferency, to the intent they should so go and be taken together inseparably, that he would not say, I leave them as things indifferent, but saith, I leave it as a thing indifferent, putting them both together in the singular numore as one. And so referreth, it to gods instilling in every man's mind, not the one, or the other disiunctively, but even jointly both together, according to his own saying indifferently: Wherefore why may I not say, (as I said) that he doth refer unto God thinstiling as well of falsehood as of truth in every man's mind, when therein he doth so knit and wrap▪ them both together with his indifferency, and that in the singular numbered, that we can not by his own words, divide or pluck them asunder?  HERE. 
I daresay, for all this, ye do not think yourself, that ever he meant, god to be thinstiller of any falsehood in any man's mind.  CATH. 
How should we know his meaning but by his saying? his saying, doth show and lead us, to this meaning. And therefore what wouldest thou have more?  HERE. 
Yet I will not believe, that he meant to refer thinstiling of truth and falsehood both unto god, with any such indifferency as ye speak of.  CATH. 
Then thou must needs grant, that he meant it rather of the one, then of the other: or else only of the one, and not of the other.  HERE. 
What else?  CATH. 
If we understand him, to refer unto god, thinstiling rather of the one then of the other, or only of the one, and not of the other. Then because the one part is his, and the other is ours, We must therefore nedis understand him, to refer unto god, the instilling rather of his part, then of ours, or else only of his part and not of ours, because he leaning to his own part, and not to ours, would needs prefer his own before ours. Wherefore because his part hath the falsehood, and so hath not ours, which hath the truth, and so hath not his, it must needs follow, that he referreth unto god thinstiling rather of falsehood then of truth, or else only of the falsehood and not of the truth. Therefore he leaveth and referreth unto god, thinstiling other of both parts (according to his own saying) indifferently, or else rather of the one part, then of the other leaning not even eaqually, or else only of his own part, and not of the other even whole percially, for one of the three, it must nedis be, & yet take of them which thou wilt, this hast thou seen, what followeth thereof.  HERALD 
Sir I see that, follow thereof, which is to bad, to be gathered of any man's meaning.  CATH. 
Whether it be or no, yet it doth and must needs proceed of his saying. And therefore thou mayest well perceive, that it is not so bad, but he was as mad, to take upon him, to play the part of such an indifferent stickler, between truth and falsehood, as would needs persuade such a brotherly love to be had between them, as neither of them should condemn other, but reserve (he saith) each others infirmity to god: wherein also it appeareth plain, that he would have here the infirmity of falsehood, which is of th'one side, reserved to god: Therefore what he meaneth by that, or how it soundeth in thine ear, I say no more, but this is he, which under pretence of his duty to believe the xii verities of the Crede, doth deny his duty of belief in all the verities of the whole scripture beside. Also this is he, that pretendeth to bear with us in the truth of our belief, to th'intent he would have us bear as much with him, in the falsehood of his belief. moreover this is he, which doth say we may believe that, which he himself doth say is false, and yet he himself will not believe that, which both he & we do say is true: for we say it is an article of our faith, and even so saith he: how be it he holdeth it indifferent to believe or not believe, but so do not we. And therefore he will not believe it one whit, till we do both agree, which he hath brought so near the point, that now it will never be.   

Cap. 29.  HERE. 
Well sir, ye do but dally with me now: how be it, if he were living as he is not, and might answer for himself, he would perchance answer ye otherwise and far better than I can.  CA 
He would if he could, but yet would I appose him for all that, in one cause more, why he did thus divide all the other verities of scripture from those xii of the Crede?  HERALD 
Is there an other cause thereof yet?  CA 
ye that there is.  HERALD 
I pray you what is that?  CA 
In the last leaf of his book, his own words doth well declare, which are even these.  
There are many verities (he saith) which are no such articles of our faith.  HERALD 
Is this all?  CA 
Nay not so But first what articles meaneth he, by these, no such?  HERALD 
No such as be of our Crede.  CATH. 
Well said. And what vetitees doth he mean here, that may be no such articles?  HERE. 
All the other verities of scripture.  CATH. 
Then here his words again, with those that followeth, and therein let them be judge. for There are (he saith) many verities which yet may be no such articles of our faith. It is true that I lay in irons, when I wrote this. how be it I would not receive this truth for an article of our faith: for you may think the contrary without all jeopardy of damnation: Now consider all this well together, and thou mayest soon perceive, that this same example of his imprisonment, doth clearly show, that he meaneth not here, by these same verities that he speaketh of, any verities of scripture, but the verities of all other things, which verities in general, with the verity of his imprisonment inspeciall, he bringeth for example, how he would have us take all the verities of scripture save twelve. For as the verity of his imprisonment, may be no such article of our faith, as those be of our Crede, Even so after the same sort, would he have all those other verities of scripture, to be no such articles of our faith neither: But the verity of his imprisonment, and all other of that sort beside, are not only no such, but utterly no articles of our faith in deed, wherefore no more would he have all the verities of scripture, scantly those twelve except of the Crede: And yet before this, he left those other verities of scripture as articles indifferent: But now he will have them, other none articles of our faith at all, or else the verities of all other things, to be articles of our faith even as well as thee: Therefore what wonder is it, though he thus divide all the other verities of scripture, as of an other kind from the verities of the Crede, when they be with him of no more estimation, then be all such other verities, as (for example) the steeple of Paul's is higher than the cross in cheap? And because the verity thereof is none article of our faith, for all it is a verity in deed: Therefore by his plain example, no more would he have all the verities of scripture, saving only those expressed in the Crede: were not a man happy thinkest thou, to meet with such a doctor, to teach him his faith? doest thou not perceive the mighty power and strength of this verity, which he would so feign overthrow, when it giveth him so shameful faults, in every wicked wile, that he doth attempt against it?  
It is true (he saith) that I lay in irons when I wrote this: how be it I would not receive that truth for an article of our faith.  
And yet without fail when he said so, he went more near to make it one, than he was ware of himself: for he went so near it, that he brought it within one word of it: In so much, that if he had put in (as the truth required) but this same word (worthily) more than he did, & said, it is true that I lay worthily in irons when I wrote this, without question, it had been then so near an article of our faith in deed, That who so ever would not believe it (knowing the matter) they could not be, but in great jeopardy of damnation. For doubtless those that think him unworthily prisoned, knowing the cause why, be of the same most damnable opinion, that he was of himself, god of his great mercy grant them soon to amend it: for how damnable that opinion is, it may well and sufficiently apere, and it were but by these his reasons (as to some they seem) which we have discussed hitherto already: how be it, god willing, in the residue yet to come, it shall be no doubt to the most affectionate frendis that he hath: only those except, which gate it by the same mean, and holdeth it by the same tenor, that he came by it and held it himself.  HERE. 
Well sir, if there be no better meaning in Frithes words, than ye have declared hitherto, I marvel greatly, that ever he would speak them as he doth.  CATH. 
doest thou mernaile at that?  HERE. 
I can not choose.  CATH. 
Then why dost thou not marvel at an other thing, which is a thousand times more marvelous than that is:  HERALD 
What is that?  CATH. 
That ever such a number would follow him as there hath done, and take him for so plain, being so deceitful: Take him so simple, being so traftie: Take him so wise, being so foolish: Take him so true, being so false. And of that numbered, so many wealthy, as men doth dame: so many wise, as themselves doth ween: so many politic, as they seem: and yet spy not his falsehood in all this time, what marvel may be compared unto it? for where as the wisdom of one, should overthrow the foolishness of many, here the wisdom of many, is clean overthrown with the foolishness of one: And also where as the falsehood of one, should give place to the truth of many, here hath the truth of many, clean given place, to the falsehood of one: who is able sufficiently to describe the wonderfulness of this matter? Wherefore if thou fall to marveling, marvel at this, which may be called a marvel alone: And therefore because, in consideration of our long talk, it is now time to draw to an end. Remember that I have declared unto thee, although not all, nor half neither, but yet enough and enough, for thee to perceive what manner of foundation it is, wherein Frith boasteth and glorieth so greatly, that he is not ashamed, in reproach of master Moor, and avauncing himself, to say (as I told thee before) these words.  
This am I right sure of (he saith) that he never touched the foundation, that my treatise was builded upon. And therefore sith my foundation standeth so sure and invincible (for else I think verily he would sore have laboured to have undermined it) I will thereupon build a little more. etc.  
And again: This was the foundation (he saith) of my first treatise, that he hath left unshaken, which is a great argument that it is very true. For else his pregnant wit could not have passed it so clean over, but would have assailed it with some sophistical ravellation. etc.  
How false a riar he showeth himself herein, I take none other, but even himself to witness in the. 56. leaf of his book, where he reciteth master moors own saying in these words.  
God forbidden (saith master Moor) that any man should be the more prone and ready to believe this young man in this great matter, because he saith in the beginning, that he will bring all men to a concord and a quietness of conscience. For he bringeth men to the worst kind of quietness that may be devised, when he telleth us as he doth, that every man in this matter, may without peril believe which wai he lust. Every man may in every matter, without any counsel, soon set himself at rest, if he lust to take that way, and to believe as he lust himself, and care not how. But and if that way had been sure, saint Paul would never have showed, that many were in peril of sickness and death to, for lack of discerning reverently the body of our Lord in that sacrament, when they came to receive him:  
How sayest thou now? doth master Moor leave this liars false foundation untouched and unshaken, as he shamefully saith and lieth that he doth? who, may say more unto it, in so few words? And yet as though it were nothing so, I would not have thee forget, how the false rainarde glorieth therein, as though he had wonderful just, and good cause why so to do, how be it, I do not greatly marvel thereat. For so much ashamed is he to lie, as most honest men are, to say the truth: And therefore with this I will leave thee now, and bede thee farewell.   

Cap. 30.  HERE. 
Marry sir a fair farewell in deed.  CATH. 
Why what eileth it?  HERALD 
What shall I need to tell you, if we part now, and leave the matter thus?  CA 
What remedy? for I can tarry no longer at this time:  HERE. 
Then I pray you tell me, when we shall meet again:  CATH. 
Meet again? why art thou not well yet?  HERE. 
Well yet quotha? Marry sir all this is nothing to that I look for.  CATH. 
what is that?  HERE. 
I look for the scriptures, the old holy doctors, and the natural reasons, that Frith bringeth for the proof of his principal purpose against the real presence of Christ's very body in the sacrament, which purpose he buildeth upon this foundation. These things I look for, to see, what ye can say to them: or whether ye be able to avoid them or not.  CATH. 
I do plainly confess, that I am not able in deed. For who can avoid holy scriptures, old holy doctors, or natural reason other?  HERE. 
Then if ye can not avoid them, ye must needs grant, that Frith hath his purpose.  CATH. 
Nay soft, thou must pardon me thereof. For although I can not avoid the holy scriptures, nor yet the old holy doctors, that he bringeth for him: yet I can well avoid his falls understanding of them. And what by them, hath he gotten then? And as for his natural reasons that thou speakest of, I am well able to prove, that they be in the name of them, nothing else, but a sort of deceveable sophistications: wherein he playeth as one did (since I may remember) being about to steal ware out of a shop in London, and perceiving that he was spied and like to be taken, he to go, and divers after him, criing stop the thief stop the thief, and he hearing that, cried even so likewise himself, as fast as they did, by reason whereof, such as met him in the way, nothing suspecting him, looked so much after an other, which as they thought should be before him, that he by that means got to saint martyn's, and deceived them all. And so likewise this wily sophister Frith, going about to steal from us the truth of our faith with his deceivable sophistications, under the name and pretence of natural reasons, and fearing therewith to be taken, had none other shift nor hope to scape, (but as I told thee before) to exclaim and cry, beware of sophisters, beware of sophisters, thinking utterly thereby, that no man would suspects him to be any of that sort: and yet in comparison of him, there is none but he alone: whereof thou haste had a meetly good proof already:  HERE. 
What proof so ever I have had already, I would here the proof of that which I now desire:  CATH. 
Thou shalt:  HERE. 
Yea but when?  CATH. 
Even when thou wilt thyself:  HERE. 
That, by my will; shall be even to morrow, while this that I have herd to day, is somewhat fresh in memory.  CA 
Content.  HERE. 
Then where shall I meet with you?  CATH. 
In no place better than here:  HERALD 
What time? before noon or after?  CA 
Nay it passeth an after noon work I may say to thee: for the whole day long, I suppose were little enough. And therefore come by nine or ten of the clock at the farthest. For one thing I will tell thee before, thou never heardest such a work, of an heretic since thou were borne, as thou shalt here of him declared in this proof which thou requirest.  HERALD 
What worse than I have herd to day?  CA 
Be thou judge thyself when thou hearest it:  HERALD 
Well sir, I will not fail the time appointed, for I shall now think long till it come.  CA 
Therefore I will bede thee farewell till then:  HERALD 
No sir not yet, for I will bring you homeward.  CA 
That shall not need:  HERALD 
Yes sir, for half your way and mine is all one:  CA 
Then come on, let us go together for so far:  HERALD 
That is my desire. And therefore is it not as good we be talking by the way for the time, as aught else?  CA 
Yes, I am very well pleased therewithal, if thou hast any thing else to say.  HERALD 
Yes marry sir, and that is this: I would feign know by what reason you can prove, that this same article, which we have been about all this while, is one of them, that we are bound of necessity to believe under pain of damnation: Ye have hitherto inveighed against Frith, for holding the contrary, but yet have ye done nothing to the probation thereof yourself: for it is two things to prove Frithes opinion false, and to prove yours true:  CATH. 
Well, although the probation of the truth, can not have a very apt and convenient place, before the falsity be clean reselled and thoroughly put away, and that in the whole, as it is not now, but in part, yet all void of thy request, I will not leave thee, because I perceive thee, somewhat desirous to here of the matter: And therefore while Frithes opinion is this, that it is an article of no necessity to be believed, and our faith is plain to the contrary, the one part, or the other, must needs be true: wherefore because the one part, or the other must needs be true, and between truth and falsehood there can be no mean, it can not be avoided, but sith the falsehood is found of his side: The truth must needs remain with us.  HERE. 
Nay sir that followeth not: for the falsehood that ye find with Frithe, is in his probation and not in the thing, which he goeth about to prove. For ye know right well, that a man may miss in the probation of a true thing sometime, and yet is not the thing false, because the probation is not true.  CATH. 
So mayest thou excuse every falsehood, which any false harlot goeth about to prove true: for soon mayest thou say, that although he fail in his probation, yet is the thing that he would prove, true enough for all that, because a man may be deceived in the probation of a true thing. When in deed the falsity of a thing, is oft times more than half disclosed, by the falsity of the probation. And therefore although the manifest falsehood of Frithes probations, do not even very apertly prove the falsehood of his opinion. Yet doth it make at the least, an inevitable conjecture thereof. And therefore even as much for the truth of our side: for what shall or may we gather of this, that all the reasons which he hath brought for his purpose, doth not only not prove his intent, but also draw after them such audible consequences, as every good christian ear must needs abhor to here? what shall we gather (I say) of this, but that the mighty and invincible truth of the contrary part, will in no case suffer itself to be overthrown. Furthermore, what wilt thou say, if Frith do sufficiently prove our part himself?  HERE. 
That can not be, for all his whole purpose is utterly to the contrary.  CATH. 
I grant the same, and yet mark him well. For he intending in deed to prove the contrary, maketh never a reason, but that (as I have declared unto thee) it runneth utterly even as much against the necessity of other necessary articles beside, as it doth against this, for which he did purpose it: and that were not possible, but because the like or the very same necessity of belief, is as well in this, as in them, and all one: for how should his reasons purposed only against the necessary belief of this article, touch the necessary, belief of any other likewise, more than they touch the light of the son, the heat of the fire and other like, being no more purposed against those other necessary articles, then against these things, but utterly because those articles and this, be all of one sort, and of like necessity to be believed, and each of these things, that is to say, the light of the son, and the heat of the fire, clean of an other sort? For what reason so ever be brought against any thing, so far it doth always run as the community of the thing, against which it is brought, doth extend, and no farther: As be it in case, that one were so mad, as to deny the immortality of thy soul, and would go about to disprove the same. Yet what so ever reasons he should make against it, without fail must needs run likewise, even as well against the immortality of all other men's souls beside, as against thine, and that could not be, but because that same immortality is common and doth appertain as well unto thy soul as to theirs. Wherefore after the like manner, the cause why, that Frithes reasons doth run, as well against the necessity of other necessary articles, as it doth against the necessity of this (for which they were purposed) is utterly because, the very same necessity of belief, is common and doth aperteine as well unto this, as to them and all one: for else it were not possible for those reasons purposed but only against this, to make any thing more against the necessity of those other, then against (as I said) the light of the son, or any thing else beside. Therefore it must needs follow, that this article, is of as great necessity to be believed, as any of the other is. wherefore because Frith would have proved it indifferent and could not, he hath therefore now proved it necessary and would not. Wherewith content thyself, thou gettest no more of me at this time.  HERE. 
Yes I pray you sir, one thing more, and then I will bid you farewell.  CA 
What is that?  HERE. 
Marry sir I have red Frithes book, I ween as often as ever did you, and yet could I never find or perceive such matter therein, as ye have declared, and I marvel greatly what should be the cause thereof:  CATH. 
It is no marvel at all: for doubtless if Frith had no more truth, virtue, wit, and learning in thine opinion, than he had in his own head, thou shouldest soon have perceived in his book, a great deal more, than I have showed the. And that shalt thou prove most true, if thou do but withdraw thine opinion and affection from him.  HERE. 
Trow ye so?  CATH. 
There is no doubt of that.  HERE. 
Well sir, here is my way now, and therefore I will trouble you no longer at this time.  CATH. 
Then farewell till to morrow.  HERE. 
God be with you sir.  CATH. 
And with the to.  HERE. 
At. ix. or x. of the clock ye say.  CATHOLICUS. 
What else?  HERETICUS. 
I will not fail you.   

Faults escaped in the printing.  
Leofe. Side. Line. Faults. Corrected. 37. 2. 15. any & of any of 38. 2. 6. as us 40. 1. 6. whtch which   

IMPRINTED AT LONDON IN FLEETSTREET IN THE HOUSE OF THOmas Berthelet.  
Cum privilegio ad imprimendum folum. ❧   


LUCRETIA ROMANA THOMAS BERTHELETUS