A SURVEY OF THE PRETENDED Holy Discipline.  
Containing the beginnings, success, parts, proceed, authority, and doctrine of it: with some of the manifold, and material repugnances, varieties and uncertainties, in that behalf.  
Faithfully gathered, by way of historical narration, out of the books and writings, of principal favourers of that platform Anno 1593.  They would be Doctors of the Law: and yet understand not what they speak: neither whereof they affirm. 1. Tim. 1.7. Sententias vestras prodidisse, superasse est. Hier. ad Ctesiph. adu. Pelag, c. 4. To acquaint you with their discipline, is to overthrow it. 
Imprinted at London by john Wolf. 1593.   

TO THE READER.  
THere are many in England I perceive, that are so addicted unto their own opinions, as concerning the pretended holy Discipline, and such a reformation, as they themselves have devised: that they cannot with any patience endure, to hear either contradiction or argument to the contrary. I know some of them (saith a certain advertiser touching the controversies of the Church of England) that would think it a tempting of God, to hear or read what might be said against them: as if they could be at quod bonum est tenete, without an omnia probate, going before. Which manner of persons, the Prophet David resembleth unto the deaf Adder, 
Psal. 58.  that stoppeth his ear, and will not hear the voice of the enchanter, though he be expert in charming. S. Augustine writing upon these words, saith: that the serpent delighting in the darkness, wherewithal he hath enclosed himself, clappeth one of his ears very hard to the ground, and with his tail stoppeth the other: lest hearing the Marso, he should be brought forth to the light. And so do a great number of these Serpentine persons, whereof the advertiser made mention: they stop one of their ears so hard with earth, that is, with a most insatiable and greedy desire of riches: and the other with their tails, whereby saith Aug: posterior a intelliguntur, that is with a sacrilegious hope, that hereafter under pretence of setting up their discipline, they may come to the massacre and spoil of the Church: and will fleer and jeer, much against their own consciences, (god knoweth) when any enchanter or Marso assaileth either by words or writing to charm them. With these men or any else, whose hearts are thus possessed, either with this earth and hope, or with any other such like poison, for what respects soever: I have nothing here to do: but only to pray for them, that god mollifying their prejudicial and obstinate minds, they may be content, first to behold, and then with humility to acknowledge the truth.  
There is an other sort both of the Clergy and laity, who notwithstanding they favour the pretended discipline, even with singleness of heart, and in good earnest (I am persuaded,) as supposing it to be the Lords own workmanship, & holy institution: yet forasmuch as they do very well know, that many dishes are washed clean on the outside, and yet are foul within: that many sepulchres are gorgeous to the eyes, and yet inwardly have nothing in them but bones and corruption: that men may be often times deceived with shows and probabilities, as always heretofore many have been: and that there are no spirits of any prophets in our days, which ought not to be subject to the spirits of other prophets: they will be pleased I trust, to yield themselves unto the Apostolical rules of trying of all things, and not be carried away, either with rashness or prejudice, to believe any spirit, until they have tried it thoroughly whether it be of god.  
In the behalf of these men, and for their sakes especially, I have presumed to offer unto their wise and indifferent consideration, such simple notes and observations, as I had formerly gathered, when according to the said rules of the Apostles, by occasion of the great opinion, which began to grow of the Geneva-forme of ecclesiastical discipline, I was bold to try and examine it, according to the measure of such small ability and judgement, as god hath endued me withal. Whereby if either they or any other shall reap any profit, to the establishing of their minds in this giddy age, from running up and down after every young startup, hither and thither, to seek new platforms of Church-government in this place or that place: when as we have one of our own, which is in my conscience truly Apostolical, and far to be preferred, before any other that is received this day by any reformed Church in Christendom: I shall think my pains well bestowed: nay, I shall be right glade in my heart, and always most thankful unto almighty god for it. Otherwise if by reason of such weakness and infirmities, as I do acknowledge to be in myself, & to have showed themselves in every part of this Treatise, there shall any offence be taken, that may blast or hinder the said fruit, which I do indeed most earnestly desire, I cannot choose but be very sorry for it, satisfying myself in the mean time notwithstanding, that in the whole process following, (the contents whereof you may see in the next pages) I have set down nothing, which I do not think I have set down truly. Liberavi animam meam. I have therein discharged my conscience: and so I commit you to God.   

The Contents of this Book.  
How under pretence of the Prophet's love to Zion: some men would gladly set up their own fancies. Cap. 1. 
fol. 1.  How, by whom, & where, the platform of Presbytery discipline, was first devised, and established. Cap. 2. 
fol. 7.  By whose instigation, and how, the pretended Discipline of Geneva hath enlarged her jurisdiction. Cap. 3. 
fol. 41.  Our English Genevaters upon a better inquiry made: are grown to a great uncertainty, touching sundry points of the Genevian platform. Cap. 4. 
fol. 60.  With what distraction, uncertainty, diversity of judgements, pretence is made, that the Geneva Discipline is of very great antiquity. Cap. 5. 
fol. 70.  The seekers of the pretended Discipline are not yet agreed, what name they should give unto their hierarchical parish-meetings. Cap. 6. 
fol. 88  Of their uncertainty concerning the places, where this pretended regiment should be erected. Cap. 7. 
fol. 96.  Of Bishops generally: of the pretended equality, of Pastors, or new parish-bishops, and how the chief impugners of Bishops begin to relent. Cap. 8. 
fol. 104.  They disagree very greatly concerning Doctors. Cap. 9 
fol. 144.  Their Aldermen must be men of good calling. Cap. 10. 
fol. 154  Their disagreement about the name of their ruling Associates. Cap. 11. 
fol. 156.  They cannot agree, where to find their Elders qualities described. Cap. 12. 
fol. 162.  Of their uncertainty, whether their Elders be ecclesiastical men, or laymen. Cap. 13. 
fol. 170.  Their disagreement, concerning the continuance of their Elders in their office. Cap. 14. 
fol. 174  Their uncertainty, where to find the particular offices of their Aldermen. Cap. 15. 
fol. 177.  Of their Alderman's joint-office with the Ministers in the election, abdication, and ordination of Ministers: and of their disagreement about the same. Cap. 16. 
fol. 183.  Of their Alderman's joint-office with the ministers, in binding, & losing of sins, & of their disagreement therein. C. 17. 
f. 190  Of the first institution of the old Deacons: and of the disagreement, about the new disciplinary Deacons. Cap. 18. 
fol. 198  Of certain Widows, which are made Church-officers: & of the disagreement, which is about them. Cap. 19 
fol. 215.  Of the charge to be imposed upon every parish, by means of the pretended Eldership. Cap. 20. 
fol. 227.  Of their desire, that those things which have been taken, by Sacrilege from the Church, might be restored again to the maintenance of their Elderships. Cap. 21. 
fol. 233  They take from Christian Princes, and ascribe to their pretended regiment, the supreme and immediate authority under Christ in causes Ecclesiastical. Cap. 22. 
fol. 250.  In the oppugning of Prince's authority in causes Ecclesiastical, they join with the Papists. Cap. 23. 
fol. 258.  Their disagreement in suppressing the authority of princes in church-causes, & in the advancing of their own. C. 24. 
f. 268  In what causes more particularly, their Elderships are to deal, as they pretend. Cap. 25. 
fol. 281.  Those things they reprove as unlawful in others, they allow in themselves. Cap. 26. 
fol. 298  How they deal with the ancient Fathers, Ecclesiastical Histories, and general Counsels, when they are alleged against them. Cap. 27. 
fol. 329.  Their dealing with all the new writers, and many reformed churches, when they make against them. Cap. 28. 
fol. 354.  How they depend upon their own Synods and favourers. Cap. 29. 
fol. 364.  How falsely they allege the ancient fathers, for their pretended parish-Bishops and Elders. Cap. 30. 
fol. 381.  How and with what disagreement they wrist and misconstrue the Scriptures, in the behalf of their discipline. C. 31. 
f. 396.  What account the solicitors for this pretended government do make each of other. Cap. 32. 
fol. 416.  Of the praise & dispraise of this pretended regiment. C. 33. 
f. 421  Of their disagreement, concerning the necessity of the consistorial government. Cap. 34. 
fol. 436.  Of the pretended commodity, that the Elderships would bring with them, and of the small fruits, that they bring forth where they are. Cap. 35. 
fol. 450.   
FINIS.   

CHAP. I. How under pretence of the Prophets' love to Zion: some men would gladly set up their own fancies.  
THe holy Prophet Esay, 
Esay. 62▪ 1.  foreseeing the miserable captivity, which the jews (for their transgressions) were to sustain under the kings of Babel: did think it necessary, to prepare their hearts to patience, by assuring them, that the Lord (in his due time) would work their joyful and happy deliverance. To the which purpose (amongst many other most notable persuasions, & prophecies) he useth these words: for Zion's sake I will not hold my peace, and for jerusalems' sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof break forth as the light, and salvation thereof as a burning lamp: 
Caluin upon Esay.  that is, donec erigam piorum animos spe futurae salutis, &c: until I may confirm the minds of the godly (saith Caluin) with the hope of their restitution again: so as they may understand, and be fully persuaded, that God will be the deliverer of his Church.  
The false Prophet H.N. the most illuminated father of the family of love, counterfeiting the imitation of the Prophet of God in this place: doth take upon him to tell the world, of a far greater captivity, not of 70. years, but of more than a thousand and five hundred years: that is, ever since the Apostles times. Wherein (saith he) darkness of error hath overshadowed the earth: 
Evang Regni  lumen vitae incognitum factum est, the light of life hath been made unknown: and the truth hath been hid, as under the mask of Popery, until this day of love. He turneth the whole doctrine of our salvation, into a vain mystery, & an allegorical conceit of his own: leaving the Church no mediator at all, besides himself. He hath framed a platform, or new kingdom and gospel of his own invention: bearing this title, evangelium regni dei: the gospel of the kingdom of God. 
H.N. 1 Exhortation, pag. 33 & 43.  Into this kingdom, as Vicegerentes he hath brought: for our ministers, his seniores sanctae intelligentiae, Elders of the holy understanding: patres familiae Christi, fathers of the family of Christ, and for our Archbishops and Bishops, his Primates, or principal Elders, his seniores parents, Elder fathers, and I know not how many illuminated and deified governors. And persevering in these and in many other such like very gross & fond imaginations: he lewdly presumeth, to apply the said place of the Prophet, to himself, and his own conceits, for the better animating of his followers to stick fast unto him: saying: 
Evang Regni.  O Zion, tua causa non silebo, &c: O Zion for thy sake, I will not hold my peace, and for jerusalems' sake I will not rest: until the righteousness thereof break forth as the light, & salvation thereof as a burning lamp: that is in effect: until the holy government of the family of love, be established upon the earth.  
T.C. a man I confess, not to be sorted with H.N. (were it not upon this occasion) will needs take upon him likewise, the person of the Prophet: and to advertise us of a wonderful servitude, that hath continued in the Church of God, (in effect, with H.N.) from the apostles times also, & which yet remaineth (as he saith) in the church of England. From the which servitude, he reckoneth, that it shall never be delivered, until it submit itself, to be newly reform again, by the advise of his deep understanding (assisted with those that diligently wait upon his illuminated devices) after the manner of Geneva. To win himself therefore the better credit, for bringing this to pass: he layeth about him, and would have all things turned topsy-turvy (as they say) even the upside down. Our ministry, their callings, our service, our sacraments, and all we have, is out of joint: Counsels, fathers, histories, they are but dishcloutes with him: he shaketh them off, as it were with a shrug: they are indeed (as after it shall appear) no body in his hands: but he flingeth them here and there at his pleasure.  
He in like sort with the assistance of his partakers, hath framed after the fashion of Geneva, a platform and new kingdom, or rather an infinite number of little petite kingdoms: but yet every one of them of an absolute power: aswell over Lords, Earls, Dukes, Princes, Kings and Kingdoms, as over the meanest whosoever under them. This kingdom he would impose upon this land. Wherein for our Archbishops, Bishops, ministers, &c: he placeth his grand Elders, (whom he termeth pastors): his second sort of Elders, (whom he termeth Doctors): his third sort of Elders, (whom he termeth Governors) joining unto them Deacons, to carry their purses, and widows to wash their feet, where need shall require. And with this devise, he is so possessed, that he thinketh all them bewitched, and adversaries to the truth, that do impugn it. He supposeth the present estate of the Church of England, (wanting that Allobrogicall devise, though reform as it is,) to be as yet, under the yoke of a wicked and unlawful government, as it were, under that jewish captivity of the Church, under the Babylonians: And therefore the better to encourage such factious persons, as do gape for a change, out of God's blessing into the warm sun: he taketh upon him to be their Prophet, and (as it were another Esay) saith: For Zion's sake I will not hold my peace, and for Hierusalems' sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof break forth as the light, and salvation thereof as a burning lamp: that is in effect: until the said glorious kingdom of this Genevian Eldership, be enthronized in this land, and do carry the sceptre over every parish in England.  
There is also another sort of schismatics amongst us: 
The Barro●●ists.  who although they condemn T.C. for a false Prophet, and all his platform, as a mere forgery: yet do they join with him in slandering, not only of our church, most heinously: but furthermore also, of all the rest of the Churches in Christendom: as having conspired together ever since the Apostles times, to shut Christ out of his own kingdom, and to run headlong into a voluntary bondage of greater blindness, than was ever in Egypt. In respect of the which our miserable estate (forsooth) in England: grounding themselves upon Cartwrightes propositions, (as they profess): vz: that seeing our Church: our government: our ministery: our service: our Sacraments, are thus and thus, as he writeth of them: therefore they will not pray with us: they will not communicate with us: they will not submit themselves to our Church, or to the government of it: they will not baptize their children with us: they will have nothing to do with us: but in effect, as though we were profane persons, Ethnics, or publicans, do abandon our societies.  
And these men come in, with another, a far more royal kingdom than Cartwrig hts. But it consisteth partly of his said officers, and partly of some other of their own: that is, of all the people: whom they greatly magnify, not seeing their own confusion. Which form, or devise, they have in such admiration, for their conceived purity of it: as that all the parishes in England (they say) must be first disparished, and all the people of the land first sanctified, and made a chosen people unto the Lord, before the same may be planted amongst us. And therefore one of them, (whether Barrow, Greenwood, Harrison, Glover, or which of their scholars, I do not now remember) but one of them I am assured; doth so greatly dislike the thraldom (in his conceit) of the Church of England, at this day: and so thirsteth to drink the waters, which they have drawn out of their own cisterns: that as, ravished in spirit, and for the comfort of his companions, he protesteth that for Zion's sake, he will not hold his peace, nor for jerusalems' sake, take any rest, until the righteousness thereof, break forth as the light, and salvation thereof as a burning lamp: that is (in effect): until all the parishes in England be purified after their fashion; & then an Eldership, (abridged by a popular authority) be placed in them.  
But of all the criers, that I have read of: he shall wear the garland for crying, 
Petition directed to her Majesty.  that presumed of late to print a petition, directed to her Majesty: but published and spread abroad amongst her subjects, for what other purpose I know not, then to withdraw them from their dutiful allegiance, & liking of her government: when thereby they should be informed, sufficiently (as he deemed) of such notorious abuses, as he falsely pretendeth: and that notwithstanding, her highness being acquainted with them, yet she cared not for the reformation of them. They say the man hath been of a crazed judgement: and I easily believe it: partly for that he hath so giddily and so untruly sought to disgrace, as much as in him lieth, the present government of the Church: and partly in respect of his desperate boldness, that after so many rebukes, given to such frantic fellows in the like cases: he durst presume again, to offer to the world, such a farthel of malicious collections, and untruths; and yet think them fit matters to be dedicated to her Majesty. But the thing that most astonisheth me, is this: in that he saith thus; I do not now write either to pull down bishoprics, or erect presbyteries. With whom the truth is, I will not determine. For I know not &c. And yet he taketh the said sentence out of Esay (somewhat turkised) for his poesy aswell as the rest. And to the condemnation of the present government, and justification of the disturbers of it (if he understand himself) he plainly professeth: that although he knoweth not which part hath the truth: yet for Zion's sake he will not cease, nor for jerusalems' sake hold his tongue: till he hath advanced his own conceit, and depraved that which he knoweth not, as much as possibly he is able.  
And thus you see, what love on all sides is pretended to Zion: and how the prophet's words are wrested, by every one of them, to serve their own turns. But they who have judgement, will not be much moved with such pretences. It hath been an ancient practice of the adversaries of the Church of God, then especially to be complotting of some mischief, 
Esra. 4.  both against Zion and jerusalem: when in outward show, they have pretended most of all, to be desirous to repair them, and to seek their glory. There are some men spoken of in the scriptures, 
Psal. 12.  who vaunt: that because their tongues are their own, they will speak what they list. To whom also these men that profess, they will not hold their peace, may be more fitly compared, then with the holy prophet Esay. Or I doubt it, that if a man should judge of many of them by the course which they have taken: or if they of themselves would resort indeed to their own colours: they might soon appear to be so far from bearing any true affection to Zion, as that we should rather find them in the tents of the Edomites, 
Psal. 138.  crying in their hearts against the good estate of the Church of Christ, now in England: as the Edomites did in the day of jerusalem: Down with it, down with it, even to the ground. But because T.C. and his followers (for with the rest I will not further meddle) have such a conceit: as that the light and salvation of jerusalem, cannot well break forth, until his pretended Eldership may be generally admitted of in England: I will leave their hearts to God, and deliver unto you historically, how this platform was devised, and grew to be so much in request: which will be the contents of the two next chapters following.   

CHAP. II. How, by whom, and where, the platform of Presbytery Discipline, was first devised, and established.  
THe world now a days, is set all upon liberty. Every man almost is of their humour, which thought scorn, 
Numb. 16.  that any should be lifted up above the congregation. The cantoninge of kingdoms, is in many men's mouths. You shall find it, a great matter amongst those that have been travailers; and it is their usual discourse, uz. what a notable thing it is to live in Venice. There, (forsooth) every gentleman liveth with as great liberty as the Duke himself. They have no Earls, no Barons, no Noblemen; of whom their Gentlemen should stand in awe. What is a Nobleman (say these discoursers) but a gentleman▪ And I am as good a gentleman as the best of them. Surely it is very well spoken: and like a gentleman. But whilst you brave so upon noblemen: do you know what you do▪ Be there not some in the world (and yet none anabaptists) that will say: what is a gentleman, but a man▪ And am not I in behaviour as gentle as he▪ and for my manhood, as good a man as he▪  
A certain writer for reformation; having (as it seemeth) a great dislike of Bishops: 
Treatise of obedience.  compareth the Bishop's Rochet to a white smock, and the Bishop himself, to a porter of the Stillyard. This will not dislike some. But read (I pray you) with patience, what he also writeth of noblemen and gentlemen: for that which he saith, toucheth them both alike. Whereof came (saith he) this division of such personages from others: 
Ibid. pa. 114.  seeing all men came of one man, and one woman▪ was it for their lusty hawking and hunting▪ for their nimble dicing, and cunning carding? for their singing and dancing? for their open bragging and swearing? for their false flyring and flattering? for their subtle pilling and stealing? for their cruel polling and pilling etc. No, no: there was no such thing. You would then be glad (I am sure) to know what thing it was. Indeed the same author doth not conceal it. In effect it is (though it be delivered in better words) uz. that their rebellion and treason against their governors, procured them that prerogative with the people. Because (saith he) they revenged and delivered the oppressed people out of the hands of their governors, 
Ibid.  who abused their authority, and wickedly, cruelly, and tir annously ruled over them; the people of a grateful and thankful mind, gave them that estimation and honour. We live in a world (you know) that crieth out: the first institution, the first institution: every thing must be brought to the first institution. The words be good, if they be well applied. 
john Wall, o● Ball in the time of jacke Cades rebellion, in Rich. 2. days.  But something was amiss in the priests application of his text, being such a like saying, amongst a multitude of rebels: vz: When Adam digged, and Eve span, who was then the Gentleman. What is a nobleman, or a gentleman now (say many in the world of the said priests humour, when noblemen and gentlemen will not satisfy their desires) but an usurper of such honour, as the people bestowed upon their ancestors at the first, for defending of them against their governors▪ which honour or prerogative their children enjoying after them by the negligence or connivency (forsooth) of the people: hath grown into a tyrannical superiority: Whereby they lift themselves above the rest of the children of God, to whom indeed the inheritance of the world doth equally appertain; by the same right, that all true Christians are fellow heirs together of the kingdom of heaven. Call they this the bringing of things to the first institution▪ Surely such and the like conceits do tend to nothing, but to blood and confusion.  
The course which was taken in Schwitzerland, and other places in high Almaigne (where the people made havoc both of their noblemen, and gentlemen) shall never (whilst I live) get my approbation: Let all the Consistorians in Christendom commend it never so much, and that under pretence of the doctrine of true obedience. Be it that their governors, their noblemen, and their gentlemen were become tyrants: yet (as Melancthon truly saith of that matter): 
Chroni. par. vlt.  excessit medicina modum: the medicine passed measure. He might have said in mine opinion, excessit medicina malum: the medicine was worse than the disease. But I will not meddle with such kind of freedom. If the Emperors of Germany do think it a matter for the glory, and for the strength of their Empire, to have it (as it were) distributed into so many free Cities, so many popular states, and little petty sovereignties: it were a saucy part for me (as I take it) to busy myself with it. Howbeit that any such doctrine or examples, should be published, or once dreamt of, in such a kingdom as this is: there is no pretence of religion, no show of reformation, no platform of Discipline, although it should come from Geneva, that can sufficiently warrant it. And yet we find it to be true by our own experience in most places, that such kind of pretences can do very much: especially if some of Geneva, shall but give them their credit and good countenance unto it.  
One Franciscus Bonivardus, at master Caluins' request, did write a short description of the city of Geneva: 
Munster.  wherein he affirmeth that about the year 1124. the Bishop of Geneva was the Prince of it: and that after some contention with one Aymo de imperio civitatis, for the sovereignty of the City: the said Bishop going to the Emperor Frederick the first: obtinuit ut ille solus Genevae principatum obtineret Regali iure: obtained that he alone might enjoy the principality of Geneva, by a kingly interest, that he should be free from all tributes, and be subject in temporal causes, but only to the Emperor. Not much disagreeing from this, is that which Simlerus writeth. 
Simlerus de repub. Helu.  Episcopatus huius urbis, etc. The Bishopric of this City (meaning Geneva) had most large privileges, and immunities: but notwithstanding the Citizens did carefully conserve the proper liberties, and perpetual conditions with their Bishops, that they had received from their forefathers. It appeareth furthermore by the said Bonivardus, that notwithstanding the Bishops right mentioned, for the principality of that City: 
Munster.  yet there was still some contention about it, betwixt the Bishops and the Earls, and Dukes of Savoy: even (saith he) usque ad nostra tempora: till our times. In respect of which troubles, the Citizens of Geneva, aswell for the assisting of their Bishop's right (I suppose), as for the defence of themselves, and their own privileges mentioned: did join themselves in league with the Helvetians, and with them of Berne, and Friburge. By means of which league, or how else it came to pass (I know not) but it appeareth by Bodinus, 
Bodinus de repub. pa. 353  that after some time, the Citizens of Geneva, growing weary of the foresaid troubles: did begin to profess, that they would not be bound either to the laws of the Duke of Savoy, or of the Bishop. But (saith the same Bodinus) they thought it not safe for them, to attempt any thing, until there did arise a quarrel for the principality, not only betwixt the Duke and the Bishop: but likewise betwixt the Bishop, and the people. The contention or dislike between the Bishop and the people, grew hereof (as I take it): for that by the pains and preaching of Farellus, they began to dislike of Popery, and inclined to a reformation of Religion, as diverse Cities near unto them, and with whom they were in some league, had done. Which inclination of theirs, was altogether misliked, (ye may be sure), by their popish Bishop. Whereupon, as also in respect of the said jars, between the Duke and their Bishop: the Citizens receiving some good encouragement diverse ways (I doubt not), novandae religionis studium ac reipub. commutandae oblatam occasionem arripuerunt, they took upon them the endeavour of altering religion, and omitted not (saith Bodine) the occasion offered, of changing also the estate of their common wealth.  
It resteth now to be considered, by what means (in part) they brought their said purposes to pass. It appeareth by Caluins' words to Cardinal Sadolet: that if the Bishop would have hearkened at the first, to Farellus, for the abolishing of Popery, they would then, have been very well content, to have admitted still of his Episcopal jurisdiction. But (as I said) he would not. And then both Farellus, Viretus, and all their favourers, did set upon the Bishop, withal main & might. They said it was not meet, for a Minister to have so great a living. They pronounced him, clara voce furen esse, with a loud voice to be a thief. The Bishop being at this time (that I speak of) in possession of the sovereignty and civil government of that City: 
Caluin to Sadolet. pag. 172  and having then in his hands (as master Caluin confesseth) ius gladij & alias civilis jurisdictionis parts, the power of life and death and other parts of civil jurisdiction: The said Ministers exclaimed against that civil authority in Bishops: 
Ibid.  they taught it, to be utterly unlawful, for a Bishop, to have any such sovereignty: they said he was an usurper, and what not▪ By which proceed and doctrine of the ministers, no marvel of the Citizens, acknowledging no right in the Duke of Savoy over them: began to think, that then the Bishop by the word of God, having none in like manner: the sovereignty of the city must needs be in themselves. In this contention therefore, (which Bodinus speaketh of) for the principality betwixt the Bishop and the people (how matters fell out I know not) but such was the present occasion: that (as it seemeth) the Bishop with many of his popish crew, got him thence. Quo eiecto Geneuates monarchiam in popularem statum commutarunt: 
Bodinus de repub. pa. 353  who being cast out (saith Bodinus), the Genevans did change their monarchy into a popular state. In respect whereof, the said Bodinus: 
Bodi. meth. pag. 243.  doth add, the city of Geneva, unto those cities of Helvetia: which for the avoiding of the tyranny of their governors, have entered into a confederacy, & shaken them of. Upon the ejection of the said Bishop, the citizens (by such advise as they liked) ordained a new form of popular government: such a one, as they themselves thought meetest for the state of that city. A council was chosen, to consist of two hundred: which council hath the highest, and a standing authority, saving that for the making of laws, for the choosing of their principal magistrates, for decreing of peace or war (which were iura magistratis: notes and rights of sovereignty and regality) these be reserved to the whole people and multitude of citizens. They ordain also two other councils: the one of threescore, and the other of five and twenty: and likewise also four Syndicks, their chiefest magistrates, to be yearly elected, with many such orders as they thought convenient, for the better government of the city. Whilst they of Geneva were busied in these affairs, which were necessary for their state: the Bishop with all his shavelings and adherentes, was not idle I assure myself. 
De. repubHelu.  He laboured (as it seemeth by Simlerus) a reconciliation with the Duke of Savoy: and (by what means I know not) did grow into such a friendship with him: as that he obtained of him his assistance: meaning to have recovered, by force and arms, his said right and authority. They of Geneva understanding of this course: did fortify themselves, 
Munster Cos. Sleidan lib. 10 Simlerus de rep. Heluit.  with the strength of Berne. Insomuch as the Duke and the Bishop, assaulting the city anno 1536. they were both of them discomfited. Bernatibus illis auxilium serentibus: they of Berne assisting them of Geneva. And since that time, the city of Geneva: hath been ruled by such a kind of government, as hath briefly been touched.  
I would not have any man to think, that I take upon me, to censure the doings of the civil state, either of Geneva, or of any other place. Only I have been bold, to set down the premises, as I find them reported by the authors mentioned: because they contain some such matters, as are necessary to be understood, in some owert sort; in respect of that, which followeth, concerning the first institution of the pretended consistorial discipline. Besides (propounding to myself, throughout this whole book, to deal with nothing, whether it be good or evil, further than as it concerneth the affairs of the Church:) I doubt not, but that I may presume, without any man's just offence, to speak my opinion, as touching the Divinity, which was pretended, by the said Ministers of Geneva against their Bishop. For in deed I do dislike it. If such dealings were simply to be urged by the word of God: they might reach further, then would be convenient. Inever thought it agreeable to Divinity, for ministers to cast of their rulers, at their own pleasures. M. Caluin writeth wisely to Cardinal Sadolet: but the course, which (there he showeth), was held by the Ministers, (say what men list,) cannot be justified. I know one that hath written thus of that matter: 
D. L.  eum principatum, evangelii lux civitati restituit, the light of the Gospel, did restore to the City, that principality which the Bishop had. But all the learned Divines in Germany, at their conferences with the Emperor (about that time) were of a contrary opinion, as touching the Bishops in those countries, who are great Princes. And surely it would seem strange to me: if the Gospel should wrest the sword, out of any civil Magistrate's hand: let him be of what profession he list.  
I do therefore subscribe to Zanchius judgement, for mine own part, where he saith: We deny not, that such Bishops, as be also Princes, besides their Ecclesiastical authority, have also their politic laws, and secular powers, as other Princes have: uz. right, in commanding in secular matters, right of the sword, 
Cap. 25. Aphoris. 21.  right of electing, and confirming of some kings & Emperors: and right of ordaining, and administering of other politic affairs: and that they have right to compel the people their subjects, to perform the duty of their subjection unto them. And therefore we confess, that their subjects ought to obey their civil commandments, (which may be kept without the breach of God's law:) and that not only for fear, but also for conscience sake. Thus far Zanchius, whose judgement in this point, will be esteemed of (I suppose) hereafter, when all that either is, or can be said by any man to the contrary, will fall to the ground, or vanish like smoke. If it be said that Zanchius writeth truly, but that my allegation of his words is altogether impertinent; for that the Bishops of Geneva, had never any settled right in the civil government of that city: I am not the man that will either justify mine own discretion, or impugn any thing, which may be brought for the civil proceedings of that state, or of any other: so as they carry no false grounds of Divinity with them, which may prove dangerous unto our own: 
De auth. mag. in subd. etc. vindic. count Tirannos. Hottom. Francog. etc.  such as have been since published, for the authorizing of subjects in many cases, to depose their Princes. Christ refused to be a divider of private men's inheritances: and then surely it doth not become me, to be a decider of any titles, to countries, cities, or kingdoms. I pray for all: and will not further meddle with any.  
Now it remaineth, that having made relation unto you, of the premises (as you have heard): I should also acquaint you, more particularly, with the alteration that was made at Geneva, in the order and form of the government of the Church. Wherein you shall find, some greater variety both of actions and policy. 
Beza in vita Calu.  M. Beza speaking of the reformation of religion in that city, saith: that Christ's Gospel was established there, mirabiliter, wondrously. A wonder the common saying is, doth last but nine days: but that wonderful course, which he speaketh of; will not be forgotten, I suppose in haste.  
As you have heard, that the Bishop of Geneva was dealt withal, for the principality of that City: so was he used as touching his Bishopric. The Ministers cried out, that his Ecclesiastical jurisdiction, was as unlawful, as his civil. Whereupon the Bishopric was dissolved: and that form of Ecclesiastical government, utterly abolished, whereby that city had been ruled in Church-causes, from the time, that first it received the profession of christianity. Together with the overthrow of which Bishopric; all the orders, constitution, and laws of the Church: (which had been in framing by all the learned men in christendom, ever since the Apostles times) were at one stroke quite chopped of, and wholly abrogated: under pretence (forsooth) of the name of cannon laws, the pope's laws, and I wots not what. Wherein the ministers dealt as wisely in mine opinion: as if some king, succeeding four or five of his predecessors (whom he hated): should thereupon overthrow, all the laws, that either they, or any other of his predecessors, had ever made before him.  
Master Caluin being charged by some (as it seemeth) with the rashness, 
Calu. de neces. ref. eccl. pa. 64.  which was used at Geneva in this point▪ doth excuse it thus in effect: uz. that they deal therein, as men do with rotten houses: they overthrew all the whole form, of ecclesiastical building as once, as it were into a rude heap: out of the which they might the better make choice, and take of that old stuff, as much as liked them, to build withal: again afterward. Indeed there are many builders in these days: of such a kind of humour. Nothing will content them: but that they build themselves. And therein also they are very inconstant. Now this must down, now that must up; now this must be changed, and that must be enlarged▪ here the workmen mistook me: this is not in good proportion, away with it: I will have this square changed into a round: and this round altered into a square. A fit metaphor could not well have been found: to have showed the unstaid minds of such manner of reformers.  
But to proceed. The ancient form of ecclesiastical government with all the Elders thereof, being thus overturned; as the citizens in the framing of their new civil government, had an especial eye to the manner of the civil government of their neighbour cities and states adjoining: so had both the magistrates and the ministers at the first also great regard of the ecclesiastical policy in the same cities: relying principally upon their form of Church-governement, and upon their orders and ceremonies in that behalf provided. But this Church Model; was also shortly after wholly misliked. For the ministers perceived, that (as they thought) the civil magistrates, had too great authority given unto them in church-causes: & that they themselves had a great deal too little. Master Caluin speaking of this manner of reformation: 
Calu: to Sad:  calleth it, but a correcting of the Church. And Beza yieldeth a reason: 
Beza in vit. Calu:  why Farellus & Viretus contented themselves with such a simple Church-governement: uz. in effect (to my understanding): not that they were ignorant, what insufficiency there was in it: but because in such a hurly burly, and great change of things, they could have no better; and afterwards when they would feign have bettered themselves, the rest of the ministers, that should have joined with them therein, were fearful to attempt (so soon) any new alteration.  
The same year, that Geneva was assaulted (uz. 1 5 3 6.) Master Caluin came thither: and was there admitted non concionator tantum (hoc enim primum recusarat) sed etiam sacrarum liter arum doctor: 
Ibid.  not only for their preacher (for he had refused that before) but also for a doctor of the holy scriptures. In which place, he was scarcely warm: when like a man of courage (rejecting all fear) he took in hand to frame a new platform for the government of that Church, (or as Master Bezaes' word is) ecclesiam componere to compound the Church: being of likelihood before in his opinion, tanquam dissoluta scopa, as a dissolute Chaos and undigested bundle. And in very short time, he did so far provaile therein: as that he caused the citizens (being assembled together) to abjure their former popish government (as they termed it) by Bishops: 
Beza in vit. Calu.  and to swear to a certain draft of discipline paucis capitibus comprehensam: comprehended (as Beza saith) under a few heads.  
What the form, of this draft was: I find it not any where mentioned. But whatsoever it was: it appeareth that both he, Farellus and Viretus, so used themselves in the administration of it: as that the rest of the ministers, and the chiefest of the city grew quickly, very weary of it. For through their rough dealing in divers points: especially in opposing themselves against the orders of Berne, 
Capit. to Farell. epl Cal. 6  (before that time received there) and particularly for their obstinate refusing to administer the lords supper with unleavened bread; 
Beza invit. Cal.  according to a resolution given to that effect by a Synod at Lausanna of the ministers of Berne. which resolution, since, Beza calleth iniquissimum decretum: for these and such like causes (I say) they were all three of them within nine months (after their setting up of their short plat of discipline) banished the city. The causes before mentioned of this their banishment, were given out thus in general terms: Tyranni esse volverunt in liberam civitatem: volverunt nowm pontificatum revocare. 
Capit, to Farell epl. Cal. 6.  They would have been tyrants over a free city: they would have recalled a new papacy.  
And here began the Consistorian humour, (which reigneth now amongst the factious sort in England) to show itself: but yet in a more secret sort, by their private letters one to an other. Their favourers and partakers, (whom they left behind them at Geneva) presently after their departure, entered into faction: and refused to receive the communion, with unleavened bread, as it had been ordered, 
Beza in vit. Cal:  they should do, by the said Synod at Lausanna. The ministers that remained in the city after them: were greatly disgraced. For in that they continued their ministry there, without the new Discipline: they were said to hold otiosam functionem, 
Capit. to Farell. epl. Cal. 6.  an idle function. The Senate of two hundred, that expelled the said three preachers, 
Cal. epI. 40  was termed by Caluin, tumultuos a perditorum hominum factio, a tumultuoas faction of rakehells & castaway es. Beza saith: 
Beza: in vit. Cal.  that in that council, the greater part overcame the better. But then by the way, they were not all of them, such manner of men, as Caluin reporteth The chiefest magistrates of the city, even the Syndics, were termed, factionum et discordiarum duces, the ringleaders of factions and dissensions. 
Cal. epl. 10.  They were resembled to Nabucadnezar: and the exiles to Daniel. And generally they gave it out against all their back friends: that they went about to overthrow the Church, and that they had obdurated themselves against the Lord jesus Christ. These and such like speeches, you must think were given out then secretly: but since, they are published in print, for other ministers instructions: which may hereafter receive any check about that kind of discipline.  
Hitherto for aught I find, the pretended discipline had no great success. I must therefore proceed on forward. These three preachers being thus banished, their friends at Geneva were marvelous earnest, to have them thither again. Many letters were procured from certain churches and learned men, to the magistrates in that behalf: as you shall partly perceive by diverse epistles set out under the title or together with Caluins' epistles. Every one likewise in the City, that held for the discipline, did his best with the people. But Master Caluin was the man, whom they all of them most desired: for the rest (being else where placed) they cared not much.  
Unto these endeavours may be added: some very wise courses taken by Master Caluin, in the time that he discontinued from Geneva▪ Cardinal Sadolet having written to the Genevians in dislike of the alteration, both of their state and of the Romish religion, admonishing them to return to their old byace: Master Caluin answered him, and justified as he thought meet their proceedings therein: to their very good contentment. Also, where some (& that of his own friends) had greatly laboured to discredit, the ministers of that city, (which were left,) to the grief of the magistrates: & endeavoured to have brought them utterly into contempt, for executing their ministery without the pretended Discipline, etc. Master Caluin stayed that course by writing unto them, that he doubted not, but that their ministers delivered unto them, the chief heads of Christian religion, which were necessary to salvation: and that also they joined thereunto the right use of the Sacraments. And then (saith he) where those two points are performed, 
Calu. epist. 17  illic substantia ministery viget: there is the substance of the ministery: and a lawful honour and obedience is to be given to that Ministry.  
Lastly, the mutiny mentioned, which was about refusal, 
Beza in Vit. Calu.  to communicate with unleavened bread, he likewise appeased: by persuading the authors of it: that it was a matter of indifferency, for the which they ought not to disquiet the peace of the Church. By which occasions, together with the former suits mentioned, the City (as I judge) having conceived a better opinion of master Caluin then they had before: and supposing, that if he came again amongst them, he would use a great deal more mildness, and moderation in his proceedings then he had erst done: they were at the last contented, (after two years banishment and more,) to recall him unto them: vz: in the year, 1541.  
Whilst his friends were labouring for him, (as you have heard:) 
Calu. to Viret Epist. 25.  he himself perceiving, that he should return thither, was still harping to his friends upon this string: how he might have the City so bound to the form of Discipline, which he had in his head, as that afterwards they might not when they list, 
Calu. to Farel. Epist. 50.  start from it. And therefore as soon as he was come thither: he employed his study that way especially. At the first offering of his pains to the Senate: he told him that the Church there, could not possibly continue, except there were same certain form of Church government established. Whereupon the Senate ordered at his request, that he and five other of the Ministers should confer together, about such a form as they thought meet: and that having so done, they should offer the same to the consideration of the said Senate.  
Here than you shall see the strength of master Caluins wit. He wisely saw, that notwithstanding, the Bishop's ecclesiastical authority had been utterly disgraced, and was thereupon rejected, as being (forsooth) Popish and tyrannical: yet it was not good for the Church, that the ministers should bate the city one ace, of an ecclesiastical authority, aequivalent at the least, to that which their Bishops formerly had enjoyed amongst them. Howbeit, he well perceived withal, that for the bringing of this matter about; there must be very good policy, and circumspection used: or else that it would be a thing impossible, to bring a people, (having gotten their liberty) into the like or a worse servitude, than they were in before. His plot therefore (as I take it) was, as followeth.  
He laboured to persuade the people and the Magistrates: that as there was a civil Senate, for the government of the City, and the territories thereof, in civil causes: so by the word of God, there should be an ecclesiastical Senate, for the government of the same City and territories (containing above twenty parishes) in causes ecclesiastical. And to this purpose he wanted not (I warrant you) very many probable reasons. The persons that should bear authority in this Senate: (I nothing doubt) but that he could have been very well contented they should have been all of them ministers: even as the civil government did then wholly consist of civil persons. But by reason of the great authority, that the preachers had before entitled the civil magistrates unto, for the banishment of their Bishop, & for their dealing in Church causes; (wherewithal they were in some sort possessed) he very wisely considered with Farellus and Viretus, that if they took that course, they should find unresistible opposition. And therefore they devised a way, which if they could obtain, should be in effect, all one, as if they had been all Ministers: and yet should carry such an outward show, as though there had been, no such matter intended.  
And their devise was: that their ecclesiastical Senate should consist of twelve Citizens, to be chosen yearly (not out of the base sort of the people, but out of the civil counsels of the City, all of them to be states men): and but of six Ministers, who were to continue for their lives, except there fell out some occasion, to remove them. With this invention, after many persuasions used, both publicly in the pulpit, and privately upon every occasion: the Citizens at length were contented. They saw, there should be twelve of them continually, (as any matters should fall out,) to six ministers: which was odds enough. They imagined, that notwithstanding they yielded to such a platform, for the satisfying of their Minister's importunity: (when they saw that needs they would be some body amongst them:) yet they should in effect keep the rains still in their own hands, and be able to curb them at their pleasure. Upon these and what other such like considerations I know not: 
Calu. epist. 54.  but after master calvin's very great pains taken about that matter, insomuch as he was therewith all almost oppressed, 
Beza in Vit. Calu.  the City at the length was induced, to admit of their platform, with the laws and prerogatives thereunto appertaining. And this was the first time, for aught I find, that the pretended consistorian Discipline, ever drew breath.  
Master Caluin, having thus (as you have seen) prevailed in this attempt: it was not long after, but that the wiser sort of the City, perceived their own oversight. For under pretence of ecclesiastical causes, there was nothing done in the City, (which this new Senate misliked,) but by one means or other, they drew it unto their cognizance. They would say that this and that was an offence to the godly: and then forthwith it was a cause for the Consistory. Besides the manner of their proceed in such causes, as were brought before them, was altogether misliked. They endeavoured by all their devices: 
Cal. to Viret. Epist. 76.  to win the people unto them. If any of the Magistrates fell into their hands: especially, 
Calu. Epist. 71  if they had no good opinion of them, they were sure to pay for it. A very rigorous course was held with certain of the chief of that City, about their dancings (upon a certain time) privately in one of their friends houses: as you may read in the 26. chapter following. And their especial drift therein, (besides their affectionate dealing upon a quarrel towards one of them,) was: (as I take it) to curry favour with the multitude. Oh (saith Caluin) (writing how like men both he and his associates had proceeded in this dancing matter) exemplum valde proderit etc. 
Ibidem.  the example will do much good. For now it is already a common saying amongst the people, nullam esse spem impunitatis, cum primarijs non parcatur, that there is no hope of impunity, seeing the chief men of the City are not spared.  
But you will say, how came it to pass, that the twelve Elders all of them statesmen, would suffer such things to be done in that Senate, as should breed such discontentment amongst the Citizens? You may remember that I told you how master Caluin in this matter showed his great wit, and overreached the Citizens notably. He was not ignorant, how easy a matter it would prove, for him and his fellow ministers, to overrule twelve simple men, all of them unlearned, as being either apronmen, artisans, or merchants. But his chiefest reach was: that he knew these twelve grand governors, would certainly remember, that their office was but annual: and that if they opposed themselves against their ministers, being their superiors in office, (and whose authority was still to continue) they might afterwards peradventure be caused to repent it. And in deed according to his good foresight, so it came to pass; which increased the citizens general discontentment and dislike of that manner of Church-governement.  
Besides, an other thing there was, that especially grieved them: and disclosed their want of providence. They saw their citizens of that Senate, not only overruled by the said six ministers, but likewise all the ministers so overtopped by Master Caluin, as that in effect he was Domine fac totum: & took upon him to do all in all. Whereupon there were some that began to fear; lest (as I suppose) Master Caluin sought (by his cunning) to bring them again, to the government of one: which they altogether detested. Thus he himself reporteth in effect of this matter: uz. that there was a supplication found, which was meant to have been exhibited to the people, at their most general assembly, wherein these two propositions were contained: Nihil esse legibus vindicandum, 
Cal▪ to Viret. cp. 77.  nisi quod rempub. laederet: that nothing was to be punished by law, but that which did hurt the common wealth. And the other: periculum esse, ne dum haec urbs unius hominis melancholici cerebro obtemperat, excitata seditione, perdat mill cives: that there was danger, lest, whilst the city, obeyed the brain of one melancholy man, upon some rebellion raised, it might overthrow a thousand citizens.  
But it will be said, that Master Caluin reporteth this as a slander. I confess he doth so. And yet for my part, this I believe was true: that in effect he ruled there in that Senate as peremptorily, as ever the Bishop of that city did before him, by virtue of his ecclesiastical authority. And I am led to judge so, by his own words. For in the time of his banishment, when he was urged by sundry ministers, to admit of equal conditions, and to return to Geneva, for the good of that Church: he answered them partly thus. Ad tantam multitudinem regendam, qui sufficerem? 
Cal: to Farell. ep. 23.  how should I be able to rule such a multitude? Again: desuetudine oblitus sum artis regendi multitudinem: through want of practice, I have forgotten the art of ruling a multitude: And to Viretus, speaking of his going to Geneva: Cerno quam arduum sit munus ecclesiasticum regere: 
Cal. to Viret: ep. 25.  I perceive how hard a matter it is, to mavage an ecclesiastical function. Again I am nescio quid factum sit, ut animo incipiam esse inclinatiore, ad capessenda eius gubernacula: I know not how it now cometh to pass, that I am of a more inclining mind to take the government of that Church upon me. What do all these speeches mean (I pray you,) but that notwithstanding his pretence of assistants: yet he meant so to lay his plot, as that they should all be constrained, all the sort of them, to dance after his pipe?  
But howsoever these things may be interpreted, this is most apparent: that, (as I said) such were the Consistorian proceedings, as that both he and his Consistory, did grow into great hatred and malice. Insomuch as writing to his friends, 
Cal. ep. 79.  he complaineth in this manner. We have too many, of a hard and untamed neck, who upon every occasion do endeavour, to shake off the yoke: that by their tumults, they might abolish the lawful order of the Church. 
Cal. to Viret. ep. 73.  There are in that number, both old men, and young men. The youth especially, is here most desperate. And to Viretus: Nisi dominus etc. except the Lord, do rebuke the sea and the winds; I see there are great storms toward us: which they move, who ought rather to appease them. 
Cal. to Viret. ep. 3.  I dare not call you hither, for many causes. The chiefest is: for that I am afraid, how at the length we must give place unto them, who will never end, until they have overthrown all. Likewise to the same Viretus. Many, are such children, that they are afraid, at the ridiculous shaking of a head etc. Si desistam, 
Cal. to Viret. ep. 73.  totum consistorium ruat necesse est: if I desist, there is no remedy, but down falleth the consistory. Great tumults, were up amongst them in the city: and therefore he altered his former mind touching his not calling of Viretus: and requesteth him most earnestly: (as being more gracious than himself) to come and help to appease them. You cannot possibly do a thing (saith he) that shall be more grateful unto me: then if you shall make a good end of these quarrels: me ad Garamantas relegato, though I be banished into the farthest parts of the world. 
Cal. to Viret. ep. 82.  And in another epistle: Eo prorupit improbitas, ut retineri qualemcunque ecclesiae statum diutius posse (meo praesertim ministerio) vix sperem. Impiety hath gotten such a head, that I can scarcely think, there can any tolerable state of the Church continue here, especially, by my ministry.  
These dissensions proceeding thus on for a time: at the last they came to this issue: 
Cal. ep. 165.  ut maior Senatus receptum et bactemus seruatum ecclesiae ordinem repent convelleret. Nos restitimus: that the greater Senate did suddenly overthrow the order of the Church: which had been received and kept. But we withstood them. An argument of very good subjection. Much trouble would surely have come of it, but that upon a sermon▪ preached by Master Caluin, and after upon a motion made by him, and the rest of the ministers to the Senate, order was taken, that for the quieting of all parts, the said sentence of the greater Senate, should be suspended, until the state of Geneva had taken the advise, of four Helvetian cities, 
Beza de vit. Caluin:  their neighbours and friends; touching the points in question: uz. about the authority of their Consistory, to suspend men from the communnion, as they saw cause: which is the very sceptre of that pretended Zion.  
When this course was taken: mark I pray you Master Caluins' policy. 
Calu. to the minist▪ of Tig. ep. 165.  He knew (as in effect he saith) that none of the magistrates of any of those four cities, would write any answer, to the citizens letters of Geneva, but by the advise of their ministers. Whereupon, whilst the Syndics with their councils were conferring about their letters to be sent to the foresaid cities, how, and what, they should write; yea peradventure, who should indite them: Master Caluin presently, speedeth a messenger one Budaeus, with his private letter unto his private friends, as to Master Bullinger, etc. and with other letters also to the rest of the said Ministers jointly: of purpose to prepare and preoccupate their minds beforehand, against their magistrates should write thither. Now I am come to the very panting or short breathing of the consistorial pretended Discipline, whether it should live or die at Geneva. The danger it lay in, was exceeding great: but master Caluin applied all his skill and medicines, for the recovery of it. Few Physicians will take such pains for their patientes.  

Calu. to Bul. epist. 164.  In his said letters, he omitteth no point of his oratory faculty. 
Calu. to the minist. of Zurick epist. 165  The adversaries of his discipline he painteth out in their colours: as that their Senate was possessed with a lamentable table blindness: that they had dealt contumeliously with poor strangers: that they had used Farellus very hardly: that diverse of them were such as shamed not to defend servetus the heretic: and that they were Satan's Ministers that stirred up these strifes. He endeavoureth to move all commiseration towards himself and his associates, in respect of their pains and dangers, undertaken in the behalf of that Church: as that for seven years together, they had been impugned, by all those that sought to live riotously, from under the yoke: that for the space of four years, nothing had been pretermitted by the wicked, whereby they might by little and little overthrow the state of that Church: and that for the last two years, their condition was no better, then if they had lived amongst the professed enemies of the Gospel.  
He ascribeth very much unto the ministers: to whom he writ: which was an especial means to procure their good favours. As (when he saith) now the matter is come to this point, that all our ecclesiastical orders shall be quashed, nisi istinc afferatur remedium: 
Ibid.  except there come a remedy from you. Again: you must so deal, as if the state of our Church were in your hands. Again, nunc extremus actus agitur: now the last act is upon the stage: and the enemies of the Gospel, are beginning already, to triumph against Christ his doctrine, his ministers, and all his members. Again: so persuade yourselves: that if Satan be not now bridled by you: habenas ei laxatum iri: he will get the liberty of his bit hereafter at pleasure. And again, I beseech you brethren, by the name of Christ: to think that it is no common matter, that is committed unto you: but that the consultation to be had, is of the state or very being of our Church. He touched furthermore, all other points: which he was sure would be especially regarded by them, being themselves ministers: in that (he saith) that if their adversaries get the victory, the whole authority of the ministery, is not only gone in Geneva: but that it will be subject, to every base rakebels reproaches. Which if it should happen, he telleth them, that he was resolved to departed thence.  
Unto all these artificial points, thus insisted upon by him: he addeth another, of no less importance, to draw the said ministers minds unto the bent of his bow. For notwithstanding he ascribeth so much unto them, as before hath been showed: yet he qualifieth all, in such sort, as that they might suspect, that except they did concur with his desire, he would hardly for his part, yield to any thing that might cross him.  
He writeth unto them, very moderately, of his consistorial platform. He saith, he is not ignorant how diverse learned men, 
Ibidem.  do not think that form of Discipline, that he writeth for, to be necessary: but yet he addeth, what his own opinion is of it, and that he trusteth no man of judgement will improve the use of it, where it is. He also goeth further, and protesteth, that whilst he sustaineth the person, that then he did, (meaning belike whilst he should be the chief pastor at Geneva) he would strive to the death, for that form of Discipline. But yet toward the end, he tempereth all again in some sort. For else it had been a ridiculous matter, to have referred their doubts to those Cities; and withal to have signified unto them, that thus and thus we are resolved: and if you shall judge otherwise, we care not for your judgements: for we will surely stick to our own. He therefore thus qualifieth this point, saying, nec morositate nostra fiet, ut loco potius cedamus, quam sententia: we will not be so wilful, as that we mind rather to leave our places, than our opinions. Meaning (as I take it) that seeing they had put their cause into their hands: they would be content to stand to their directions.  
You do look I am sure to know, to what purpose master Caluin used all this Rhetoric: and what the matter was which he desired at their hands. He himself shall tell you, as he told master Bullinger. Brevis summa est, etc. The sum thereof briefly is this: that your honourable Senate may give this answer: vz: that the form of our Discipline, which heretofore we have followed, is consentanea verbo dei: agreeable to the word of God: deinde novitatem improbet: and then let them reprove the newsanglenesse of our Citizens. Indeed if he can get that answer, it is to the matter: and (of likelihood) will serve his turn. But what do the magistrates of Geneva all this while, you will say▪ Surely: I told you before. As soon as they could: they writ, and sent their letters, to the said four Cities. Of those that came to Zuricke, master Bullinger writeth: that they were but short: and so I think we may judge of the rest. The effect of which letters was: 
Bullinger to Cal. epist. 166  vz: that they of those Cities would resolve them. 1. How excommunication was to be used by the word of God. 2. Whether it might not be used by some other means, then by a consistory. 3. What the practice of their Churches was in that point. Upon the receipt of these letters, (even as master Caluin foresaw it would come to pass) there were appointed in Zuricke four: the Consul and three Senators, to consult with three of their learned Ministers, what answer was meet to be given, to the said three questions.  
If the magistrates of Geneva, had met with as good an orator, as M. Caluin was: that would have laid open the qualities and proceed of the Consistorian faction; how they intermeddled in all the common affairs of the city: how they used to keep men from the Communion, without yielding any other reason why they do so, but because some of the godly brethren (forsooth) were offended with them: how, if a man have committed any offence, for the which he is punished, and professeth his hearty repentance for the same, yet they will keep him from the Communion, until it please them to say, that he is penitent enough, which they do, as they affect the party. If in their letters they had informed, how upon any light displeasure, or rash information, their wives, their children, and servants: were called into the Disciplinarian Consistory, (a place for criminal persons) so as thereby, they were infamed: how they affected popularity, wholly, which might endanger the Magistrates of the City, upon any displeasure conceived against them: how they of the city had been compassed, in the framing of the platform of the Consistory: how although there was a pretence of a Senate, yet one man did all, and the rest, were but attendants of his pleasure: how by experience, they found, that their Bishop, did never tyrannize more over them, by his spiritual jurisdiction, than now some one man did: how the authority which had been taught to belong unto them (being civil Magistrates,) was wholly taken from them again, & nothing left unto them, but to be the executioners of their consistorial men's pleasures: If they had foreseen how likely it was, that M. Caluin, would seek to discredit them all, to his uttermost, & had therefore signified unto the Magistrates of these four cities, that there were as honest & religious men in the City of Geneva, that misliked that form of Church-government, as there were that spoke for it: that if in their letters they depraved any, their evil words ought not to prejudice the cause, committed unto them: for that it is their custom, to slander all those, that do impugn them: that they for their parts, the magistrates of that City, rested all of them, as fully resolved to continue the preaching of the Gospel amongst them, as ever they were glad at the first to procure & admit it: If they had given some round intimation, that they the citizens were resolved, to have their Church reform according to some of the platforms of the Helvetian Churches, and that they would no longer endure to be so over-looked and hampered, in their own free City, by such a pragmatical and intermeddling Discipline: If (I say) their letters had been penned after this or some such like sort, as I suppose there was good cause: (the proceed of that Consistory being such at that time as since they have been in other places) I doubt not, but that the ministers of those cities, would have advised their magistrates: to have given an other kind of answer than they did. For they the said ministers believing Master Caluins' information, that all was true which he had reported unto them: and considering, what a small matter it was, which he and the rest of his associates required at their hands, & that the satisfying of them therein, might break the backs of such a wicked conspiracy, as was pretended to have been made even against Christ himself and his Church: and not only prevent that mischief for that time, but procure the establishing of the Gospel there, for time to come hereafter; they dealt no otherwise for the said answer, than I am persuaded all the Bishops that now are in England, (if then they had lived) would have done in the like case.  
And that was in effect as Master Caluin wished: saving, that whereas he would have had them to have said, 
Bul. to Calu. epist. 166.  that the form of the Geneva discipline was consentanea verbo dei, agreeable to the word of God, they refused to write in that sort: but were content to say that it did accedere ad verbi dei praescriptum: that is, that it drew towards the prescript of god's word, or looked that way. But you shall hear Master Bullinger himself report the answer of their Senate: which was: that they were grieved, their Church was so troubled, as that one quarrel and contention did beget another: that they had lately heard of the consistorial laws of that Church (for Caluin had sent such of them as he thought good, unto the said ministers by Budaeus his messenger) and did acknowledge them to be godly, and to drae towards the prescript of god's word: and therefore that the changing of them by any innovation, was not to be admitted in their opinions: that it was better, they should be wholly kept, especially in this age when men wax worse and worse: that although (say they) our discipline doth not agree with that of Geneva in all points: yet the same being framed according to the circumstances of times, places, and persons, doth not import any overthrow of yours: and that according to their desire of Geneva, they had sent unto them, the form of their discipline, not minding (as they said) to prescribe any jot of it, to them: for that they deemed their own at Geneva, to be more meet for them there.  
This being the sum of the answer agreed upon by the said Senate at Zuricke; Master Bullinger presently dispatcheth the same in a private letter to Caluin: 
Bul. to Calu. epist. 166.  and not that only, but he also writ his letters at the same time, to the ministers of Schafhusen and Basill (two of those cities belike, to the which the deciding of the said questions was also referred) signifying what answer the magistrates of Zuricke had made: that they likewise there, might concur with them in their answers for the peace and edification of the Church of Geneva, although (saith he) you have not the like form of discipline in your Churches.  
After that M. Bullinger had thus dispatched his private letters: the Senate then, soon after, sent their said answer to Geneva. Which being received, perused, and considered of: there was great muttering in the city. The magistrates thereby did find themselves as it were in a labyrinth. The strength of their state, did depend especially (as I judge) upon the league and friendship, which they had with the said four cities. So as they might not do any thing: that should dislike them. And on the other side, remembering the great abuses of their Consistorialls, how they had formerly dealt with them, and tyrannised over them (as they supposed:) it greatly troubled them, to confirm unto them, any such authority. It seemeth therefore, that they endeavoured to protract the time, as much as they could. And yet because they thought it meet, that some thing should be done upon the receipt of the said answer: they caused a kind of general reconciliation, by giving their right hands, 
Calu. to Bul. epist. 171.  and an oath was taken, that none of them, for the time to come, would support any evil causes.  
Master Caluin being discontent with this plausible colour of peace, as perceiving that thereby the restoring of the Discipline, unicus pacis custos: the only preserver of peace (as he termeth it) was neglected, and that their Church was still, like Noah's Ark in the flood: he grew (after a short time) to be resolute, and provoked the magistrates, to give their answer; whether they would follow the advise of the said former Cities, or they would not. Whereupon (as it seemeth) the matter was put to voices.  
And now see the upshoote. In illa promiscua collunie suffragijs fuimus superiores, in that confused offscouring of the whole multitude, 
Calu. ' too Bul. epist. 207.  (saith master Caluin) we had the most voices. It is very worthy the observation, and to be kept likewise in perpetual memory: in what honourable presence (according to master calvin's own estimation) by how reverend a company of learned fathers, and famous persons, and with what singular gravity, great wisdom, and mature deliberation, this solemn and glorious form of the pretended holy Discipline, was revived again and entertained at Geneva. In illa promiscua colluuie suffragijs fuimus superiores. In that disordered dunghill of riffraff, tag and rag, our presbyterial platform, having moste of their voices, carried away the bucklers. No doubt a worthy victory: For if an assembly be called collwies (as I take it is) a maiori part, of the greater part: what godly man living would not then have fling up his cap and rejoiced, to have seen the noble consistory triumphing that day, with the applause and approbation of so honourable a company. Men may talk hereafter of the council of Nice with shame enough: if they shall compare it with this royal assembly. In good earnest, seeing the multitude of all the Citizens of Geneva, was content to gratify master Caluin so much: it might have become him well enough, to have recompensed their friendships with some better terms. But let that go: if the Citizens themselves do take it well at his hands to be so used by him: it shall not any way trouble me any further.  
When master Caluin had well considered, how hardly he had obtained his conquest, and how it was not very unlike, but that some of those, who had before opposed themselves, would still be practising to overthrow his work again, if possibly they could: he advised (as it should seem) with his best and surest friends, what course was meetest to be thought of, and taken for the preventing of so notable a mischief. And their plot was: how they might strengthen their said Collwies or greater part, for the better continuance of it. The present opportunity served their purpose. Whereupon like wise men, they so hammered their matters whilst the Iron was hot: that they procured fifty of master calvin's own nation, all of them mere Frenchmen to be admitted Citizens at one time in Geneva. 
Bod. de repu. lib. 2 Calu. 6.  Which was a point of very great importance. For (as I take it) the people having reserved to themselves (as Bodive saith) ius i●be●●dae legis, authority to make laws: the Eldership being set up by them, could not be overthrown afterwards without them. And then to have such an increase of assured friends, that would stick as fast to master Caluin, as the skin did to his forehead: was surely a great matter in so little a town. And as this policy was put in practice for the Citizens: so I conjecture it was also from time to time, as touching the ministers.  
None but Frenchmen might rule there in that Consistory: if master Caluin could help it. When the Magistrates upon a time would needs have one Trollietus a Genevian borne, to be one of their ministers: hear (I pray you) how master Caluin writeth thereof, to his friend Viretus. 
Cal. to Viret. epist. 586.  Trollietus quidam, quod natione sit Genevensis etc. One Trollietus, because he is a Genevian borne, is obtruded unto us: in whom there do appear many signs, which none of us like of. And I see not any thing in him worthy a Minister: nisi quod Simiae amant suos catulos: but that apes love their whelps. So as I guess, that for master calvin's time: no Apes were fit for his turn, but his own. Though master Caluin writ in this sort, (merrily peradventure) to his familiar friend: yet master Beza was not bound to have published such a disgrace in print against those, that have deserved better of him. But this partiality in the choice of their ministers; was not a matter that much offended any; for aught I find. Marry the other devise, of making fifty Frenchmen, Citizens at a clap: did wonderfully trouble many. It caused a present mutiny in the City and a great uproar: the sparks whereof were never quenched, as long as master Caluin lived.  
And thus you have the birth, and confirmation, of the consistorial discipline with a devise for the continuance of it: collected (for the most part) out of such Epistles as Beza hath thought meet, to publish, for master calvin's commendation. If I should have set them both down; as some others have done: (who are no Papists) you should have heard another manner of history. But I like not to take things, at the worst hand. The truth was it I sought for. And I would not have done that neither in this point: but because certain persons of the consistorial humour, do daily upon every occasion, still dash us in the teeth, with the orders of Geneva: the discipline at Geneva: and the Consistory in Geneva: as though that form of discipline, had come lately from heaven: with an embassage from God, that all the Churches in the world must frame and conform themselves, to the fashion of Geneva. Which gave me just occasion (in mine opinion) to search (as you have heard) into the secrets of that manner of Discipline: to know indeed, from whence it came, whether it would, who devised it: when, and how, it was planted at Geneva: the first place that hatched and received it.   

CHAP. III. By whose instigation, and how, the pretended Discipline of Geneva hath enlarged her jurisdiction.  
IT was not long, after that M. Caluin had obtained his desire, (as you have heard in the former Chapter,) for the planting of the platform of his pretended Discipline in Geneva: when for the better backing of himself he procured master Beza, his especial friend, (a man whom he knew to be of a very great courage, wise, learned, and one wholly addicted to applaud to all manner of his procedings) to be likewise placed with him there. And then being both together: two such excellent men amongst a company of Artisans and Merchants: what might they not compass and bring to effect? Fron the time that master Caluin came first to Geneva, 1536. and had gotten the allowance of his first draft of Discipline, uz. 1537. he grew daily more and more into liking with it: especially after the fuller enlargement thereof 1541. when he was restored again to his place at Geneva. But most of all, when about the year 1554. he had triumphed as it were the third time, by the greater part of the voices of the ignorant multitude, and had also gotten master Beza his applauder into his company: then we may not marvel, if that his platform so travailed for, seemed glorious unto him.  
In those days when master Caluin did first show himself in his writings against the Papists: he was the only man of especial account of all the French nation. Insomuch as all the rest of his country men, that began more freely to profess the Gospel: did principally in a manner depend upon him: especially after he had possession of his great authority in the Presbytery at Geneva. For then by reason of the quiet estate of that City: the free access and entertainment of such Frenchmen as fled thither for religion: the want of sufficient men in other places of their own country, to give advise and Council, what was to be done in such distresses of the Church, as then were usual, and by reason of the fame, ability, learning and policy, both of himself and of his assistant Master Beza: and likewise of their willingness or rather desire to entertain all occasions of busying themselves: the City of Geneva became in short time (for their sakes) to be of great estimation in France. He that shall read master Caluins and master Bezaes' two books of Epistles, and likewise the Commentaries of France, with diverse other discourses, about those affairs, and should withal give any credit either to Heshusius, Baldwinus, Carpentarius or others, men learned all of them, and some of them known Protestants: would certainly marvel to understand into what actions and dealings they thrust themselves: of war, of peace, of subjection how far it extended: of reformation without staying for the Magistrates: of leagues: of impositions, and what not. They writ their Letters, to this state and that state: to this Prince and that Duke: to this king and that Emperor: what their desire was, should be done in such, and such a matter? Not like the persons either of Newington or Hitchin, (that I may use Cartwrights' examples of such Episcopal Seas, as he alloweth of) but rather like two patriarchs at the least. Generally for Church-matters: they had engrossed the whole managing of them into their hands. And then you may easily guess, what favour the pretended presbyterial discipline was like to find with them: it being the only pretence for all that their authority, or whatsoever else they took upon them to deal in.  
And mark how the opportunity served them. The number of zealous professors in France daily increased: who exempted themselves from the tyrannous commandements of their Romish Bishops. They had then no order or certain form of Church government: how to proceed and behave themselves in their religious assemblies. And to have framed it to any foreign platforms: would have stirred up coals amongst them. Nay it was not possible to have been compassed, Master Caluin and Master Beza sitting at their stern. So that it came no sooner in question, what manner of ecclesiastical regiment was meetest for those Churches: but the form of discipline used at Geneva, was presently agreed upon. From which time you shall find that the reformation of religion in France, did wholly proceed after the rules of that kind of discipline. It was not sufficient to have the exercise of religion: but the Churches must vindicari in plenam libertatem, be restored to her full liberty, 
Pet. Carpent. ad Franc. portam.  Synods were held, laws were made, and decrees were put in execution. What orders then in request: 
Comment. of France.  what ceremonies: what manner of service: what kind of subjection: what way to reform religion: but after the fashion of Geneva? Which course of proceedings together with the rules thereof, diverse well affected in religion did greatly mislike. Master Ramus had written a book against it, 
P. Carpent. ibid.  (if Carpentarius say truly, and I take him to be an authentical author, because the late petitioner allegeth him for the government of his Elders,) terming the fountain thereof, or the platform of such a discipline Thalmud Sabaudicum, the Savoyan Thalmud, and greatly reproving the obtruding of it, upon the Churches of France.  
Much more might here be added, and that out of their own authentic writers of this disciplinarian canker: how and by what means it spread itself in France, and in some other Countries. But I will pass that over, and come to acquaint you, how the same infection hath been transported from those coasts to this side of the seas, amongst us. If Master Caluin, but especially master Beza, could have been content to have contained themselves, within the limits either of Geneva or France, & to have intermeddled & reigned there only: and to have urged their platform and devise no further: they might the better (for us in England) have been borne withal. But now seeing they have not so done: who can be offended that I should make mention of it? to the end, that if they dealt amiss therein, their examples and proceedings might have the estimation, which indeed they deserve.  
I omit how in K. Edward's time, certain malcontents grew up in the Church of England; because sundry matters might not be ordered as they were at Geneva: master Caluin having written sundry letters into England to some such like effect. In Queen Mary's time, assoon as certain of our Countrymen were come to Franckforde: they were assaulted with the orders of Geneva. Quarrels arising about the communion book and form of the service of England in King Edward's time: there were particulars collected out of it, by Knox, Whittingham, and such as had already tasted of that intoxication, and sent to Geneva to be censured by M. Caluin. Who upon the receipt of them: returned his answer, concerning the said Book (compiled & confirmed before by such men, and such an authority as he ought to have reverenced): In Anglicana Liturgia, 
Epist. to Knox & Whitting ham 200.  qualem describitis, multas video fuisse tolerabiles ineptias: I see that in the English form of service, as you describe it, there were many tolerable foolleries. When Knox and Whittingham had gotten this letter, they published it to the Congregation. Which being read, it so wrought in the hearts of many (saith the discourser of the troubles at Frankford) that they were not before so stout to maintain all the parts of the Book of England, 
Discourset pag. 36.  as afterwards they were bend against it. If you have Caluins' Book of Epistles, I pray you read it. Although Beza thought it meet to be published in print: yet shall you find it, to contain no one point of substance in it able to persuade a child. So as thereby you may judge of their giddiness: who were moved so greatly with it.  
When some of the said parties: 
Discourse. pa●  Whittingham & diverse others, of a more violent humour, came first to Frankford, they fell also presently into a very especial liking of the Geneva discipline, as finding it to contain such rules and practices, as did greatly concur with their own disposions. In England popery was restored, and much cruelty used, whereby they were constrained for the saving of their lives, to leave their Country, their livings, and their friends. In which case a man may easily guess, how acceptable these points were unto some kind of humours: uz. that if Bishops and Princes refused to admit of the Gospel: they might be used by their subjects, as the Bishop of Geneva was used, that is (deposed,) and that every particular minister with his assistants according to the platform of that discipline, was himself a Bishop, and had as great authority within his own parish, as any Bishop in the world might lawfully challenge: even to the excommunicating of the best, aswell the Prince as the Peasant. And indeed accordingly, these positions (as afterward it will appear,) were so pleasing to Whittingham and his consorts, as it had been a very mean form of discipline, (I suppose) that having such principles annexed unto it, would at that time have been refused by them. Howbeit many there were, and that of the learnedest of those, that then departed the Realm, as Doct. Cox, Doct. Horn, M. jewel, with sundry others: who perceiving the tricks of that discipline, 
Discourse pag. 47.  did utterly dislike it. So as when they came afterwards to Frankford, they wholly insisted upon the platform of England: and in short time obtaining of the Magistrates the use thereof, they did chose either D. Cox or D. Horn, (as I guess) or some such other as had been of especial account in K. Edward's time, to be (as it were) their superintendant.  
For the bringing of which matter to pass, one master Clanbourge a chief magistrate in that City, having showed them some especial favour: complaint was made thereof (as it seemeth) to M. Caluin. Whereupon the said M. Clanbourg did write to him, (as it should appear,) that he was induced to yield to such a choice, the rather because the said superintendant had some such like superior place in England, before he came thither. Unto the which point, master Caluin, (that he might thrust his oar into every man's boat,) to disgrace the said platform of England, as much as lay in him, and to encourage the factious company at Franckforde, (that were besotted with his pretended discipline,) did return this answer: (If Beza hath set out his letter truly): 
Calu. Epist. 229.  I would one point had been omitted, which was suggested unto you, I doubt not by that one party. (I think he meaneth the said superintendant.) For otherwise it would never have come into your cogitation, (as though he had still kept his whole estate in England,) to have established his former ministery there with you, in a perpetual possession of the authority thereof. Peradventure there is nothing that from the beginning, (his meaning is, since the Englishemens came thither,) hath stirred up more contention, or at the least displeasure, & so hath kindled strife, than this emulation: in that the greater part did think themselves to be thrust from their equal degree, and to be contumeliously excluded from the common society: if the Church which had received entertainment with you, (meaning the company, that had received his form of discipline, before the said learned men came to Frankford,) should receive their laws from the other part or side.  
Within some short time after this, that, the said order of the English Church was established, (as you have hard) at Frankford: diverse of those men, who had been earnest for the Genevian discipline, divided themselves from that Church, (as Whittingham, Gilby, Goodman, and others,) and went to Geneva. Where, to the great discredit of the estate of the Church of England in King Edward's time: to the great grief of such godly men, and afterwards worthy Martyrs, as remained here in Queen Mary's time in England: and to the great discouragement of sundry weak professors then also in England: they rejected the whole form of our English reformation: the book of common prayer: our service: the order of our sacraments, and of all things else in effect there prescribed: and conformed themselves altogether to the fashions of the Church at Geneva. Where they had not been long, when they had sucked and digested the whole doctrine before mentioned, to be as the appendents necessarily annexed to that form of new discipline: and which was afterwards enlarged by Beza, (as I take it,) Hotoman, & others of the disciplinarian humour, in their books entitled: De iure magistratuum etc. Vindicia contra tirannos: Franco-gallia. etc. The general sum of which their allobrogicall food, so much as concerneth this point of the disciplinarian reformation: (that I may omit their desperate points of deposing of Princes, and of putting them to death in diverse cases of resistance against reformation) was this: that if the sovereign magistrates refused to admit it: the ministers, the inferior magistrates, the people etc. might set it on foot themselves. Of these and such like arguments, diverse books were allowed of, by the ministers of Geneva: to be then printed there in English, and to be published for England and Scotland, as containing such doctrine in them, whereof the world might take notice, that as they had practised some part of it themselves, so they would be ready upon all occasions to justify it.  
I have heard many, greatly commend the entertainment, that was given in Queen Mary's time to Englishmen, at Geneva. And surely the citizens there, are (in mine opinion) to be greatly commended and assisted for it, as occasions shall require. But yet (to speak what I think) it had been better for this Island, that neither Englishman nor Scottishman had ever been harboured or acquainted there, 
History of the Church of Scotland pag. 145. 213. 214. 216. 218. 303. 307. 308. 330. 343. 372. 373. 500 502. 503. 504. 507.  in respect of such disciplinarian new lessons, & consistorial practices, as they have brought with them from thence. If ever you meet with the history of the Church of Scotland, penned by master Knox, & printed by Vautrovillier: read the pages quoted here in the margin: likewise peruse the English Chronicles of Scotland (as they stand corrected by some men of good experience and credit, appointed for that purpose,) in the places also noted: but especially procure for your perfect instruction, 
Engl histo. of Scot pa. 433. 446. 448.  the Acts of the Parliament held in Scotland 1584. as they are printed and are abroad in many men's hands: and then tell me whether you be not of my mind, for the fruit of master Knox his being at Geneva.  
I could refer you to some other Books: but those shall suffice. For there 
a Histo. of the Chu. of Scotl. pag. 211. 213. 214. 216.  you shall find, that the whole course, which hath been held in that country, concerning the points I speak of; was complotted at Geneva, amongst the ministers there, and Caluin is named. There 
b Act of Parliament 1584.  you shall find the form of the consistorial pretended Discipline, being set up without public consent, overthrown by Act of Parliament, and afterward restored again, you may see 
c Eng. chron. of Scotl. pag. 446. 448.  how.  
As soon as this said pretended discipline began to get a head in that Country: then again (as amongst certain of the French Ministers,) no form of Service, or of the administration of the Sacraments, no orders, nor any thing else, but all must be done, as it was at Geneva. As any doubts did arise amongst them, concerning any Church-causes, though they were but very simple, & such as a student of mean capacity and judgement, might very easily have satisfied: yet no man but master Caluin for his time, 
Calu. Epist. 283. 285.  and afterwards master Beza, (as though they had been such Peter for the Protestants, as the Bishop of Rome pretendeth himself to be for all Papists) was accounted of sufficiency, or able to dissolve them: when they had overthrown the ancient state of their Bishops, and set up the Geneva minion by such means, as you have heard: and had so far prevailed therein, as that now they began to please themselves exceedingly. See how Beza, being informed thereof, doth allow of their dealings, & encourageth them to go forward, in such their obedient & right Consistorian courses. He termeth their reformation after the Geneva mould, 
Beza to Knox 1572. Epi. 79  (if I understand him,) Caelum in terris situm: a Heaven placed in the earth: or at the least he compareth the force, which had been used about that matter, to the power of God. He saith: that no nation in so few years, had abidden more assaults of Satan, to have hindered the said pretended Discipline: and thanketh God, that Knox is their Pilotte to guide that ship. He exhorteth the said Pilot, and his fellow mariners, that seeing they had both pure Religion, and pure Discipline now amongst them, they should keep them both together, and never suffer, (as though they had been all of them Princes,) the authority of Bishops, in any wise to be restored again.  
afterward, there being some new attempt made, (as it seemeth) in the behalf of the Bishops: and (as I perceive) defeated by the pretended reformers, upon information thereof given by one Lawson a minister to Beza: 
Beza to Lawson 1580.  he returneth him an answer beginning in this sort, (though he were then sick,) Beastime: you have made me an happy man. The same year also he writ the discourse of his three kind of Bishops: uz. of God, of men, and of the Devil: and sent it unto a man of great state in that country. It hath since been translated into English by Field (as I take it) for our instruction in England. 
The judgement of a most reverend man.  Wherein Beza dealeth, (I will not say) like what kind of Bishop: but rather like some new startup Oracle: and dissolveth questions, Pellmell: uz. that all Bishops, (other than such as have an equality amongst them, and such as he alloweth and requireth, that every minister should be) must of necessity be packing: that the chief Elders should be admitted to be present in their Parliaments, (as the Bishops were,) to deal in Church-causes, and to answer in place of God, if any other matters fell out, wherein the Lords would be resolved: that Papists may not to be excommunicated, what sin soever they commit: and that it is Sacrilege, for any lay person, and such a sin as God will revenge, to stain his hands with the goods of the Church. He further prescribeth, the whole course of the church government, for that kingdom to be fashioned after the platform of Geneva: taking much more upon him therein, then Eleutherius, the Bishop of Rome would do, having a far better occasion offered him by the king of Britain, Lucius. Who after he had newly received the Gospel, moving the said Bishop (in respect of his great fame) by his Ambassadors, to prescribe unto him some orders for the Churches within his Realm: he returned unto him, this answer in effect: that the King being Christ's Vicar, and having the Scriptures, he the said Bishop would not presume to prescribe any thing unto him, but leave him, to be directed by them. Such an answer as this, had been more fit for a man of Bezaes' place, then in such a pope-like manner, to forbid and prescribe laws to such a kingdom. But I will leave these and such like Genevian dealings, in that part of this Island: because peradventure they are desired to be continued there still: and come unto the Genevating, for the self same platform of discipline, here at home amongst ourselves.  
As soon as her majesty, (whom Almighty God long preserve to reign over us,) was come to the Crown: word was sent into this Realm from Geneva, 
Knox exhort. to Eng. pa. 92.  in a Book printed there 1559. that those Princes, that would live without the yoke of Discipline, (meaning that Genevian form,) were to be reputed for God's enemies: and therefore unworthy to reign above his people. About the same time, Goodman, Whittingham, Gilby, and some others, returned from Geneva into England. What violent and seditious doctrine they brought home with them, (at the least they three that are mentioned,) I leave to some other opportunity. But for the Genevian discipline, all their desires were in that point insatiable. They had seen how Caluin and Beza did reign at Geneva, and thought scorn thereupon to be subject unto any. It seemed unto them a notable matter: If every one of them might by and by, have obtained an absolute authority, where they should have been placed. Coming from Geneva: they thought they should have been admired. But finding themselves therein deceived, and that their Genevian motions, were little regarded: it wrought in them a very great discontentment, and made them so wilful, that nothing would please them, which was not practised in Geneva. So as thereby great contentions were presently stirred up by them. Their first assault was made against the Communion Book: with the orders & ceremonies that are therein prescribed. In the which quarrels, perceiving themselves in many respects (as I take it) to be overmatched: what was their refuge, but (forsooth) they must complain to master Beza? Which complaint received, 
Beza Epist. 8.  he writ his Letter in their behalf unto Doctor Grindall 1566. then Bishop of London. I wish a man would read the Epistles of Leo, sometimes Bishop of Rome, and confer them with this of Bezaes': to consider, whether took more upon him; Leo where he might command, or Beza, where there was no reason he should at all have intermeddled. But let him go on. He findeth faults with the manner of apparel, appointed for our Ministers, with the Cross in Baptism, with kneeling at the holy Communion, with all ceremonies that carry with them any signification, and withal the ancient Fathers, applying himself altogether to strengthen and encourage his factious old acquaintance, in their froward and perverse obstinacy. And because his course taken therein, should not be unknown; with the same mind that he writ this letter, now you see he hath printed it.  
The year after 1567. when the said malcontents perceived that notwithstanding Bezaes' letter, there was no place given unto their giddy fancies, but that every day they were withstood more and more, and that with such sufficient reasons, as (for mine own part,) I think, that all the Bezaes' in Christendom will never be able sufficiently to confute: they began to stagger, and knew not what they should do. They could find no directions in the scriptures, how they might behave themselves: and therefore they were constrained to fly again to Beza. Observe well I pray you, 
Beza. epist. 1●  what he himself writeth hereof. Saepe multumque etc. Being oft and greatly desired of my dearest beloved Brethren of the Churches of England, that in their miserable state, Consilium illis aliquod suggereremus, in quo acquiescere ipsorum conscientiae possent, (I would give them some council, whereupon their consciences might rest,) diverse men holding divers opinions etc. A long time I differred for divers weighty reasons so to do: and I profess, that most willingly I would yet have been silent, but that I think I should greatly offend, if I should still reject their so many petitions, and most pitiful mournings. We in England may think, we have had great jewels of these disturbers, and that for all their pretences of great learning, and gravity, they were indeed of a very shallow judgement, that could find nothing to stay their consciences upon, but what should be sent to them from M. Beza. It was a fond part for them to write so unto him, and a very insolent part for him to take so much upon him: but in that he hath published so much to the world in print: (their childishness, & his own pride, I may term it,) but I want a word to express my conceit.  
Hereby it should seem, that if Beza had taken such a course as might well have beseemed him: it lay greatly in his power, to have very much quieted all those present troubles. But that mind was far from him: and yet it would have tended a great deal more to his own credit. For he giveth his said dearest beloved Brethren, very unwise, unlearned, and ungodly council: although ever since that time, (according to their promise) they have very gravely builded their consciences upon it. 
Beza Epist. 12  And it was this in effect, that if they could not enjoy their ministery, without giving their consents, to the manner of making of our Ministers by the Bishops, without the voices of such a Presbytery, as he and his Scholars do dream of, without giving their consents to the use of the Cap and Surplise, and to the manner of excommunication in the Church of England etc. They should then give place manifestae violentiae, to manifest violence, and live as private men. Let any man that list read over that Epistle also, and then judge indifferently, by what light advise, this peevish opposition hath been continued amongst us.  
After some time spent in these brabbles: then they bethought them, to fall more directly in hand, with the Genevian Discipline. To this purpose certain persons assembled themselves privately together in London: (as I have been informed): namely Gilbye, Samson, Lever, Field, Wilcox, and I wots not who besides. And then it was agreed-upon (as it seemeth) that an admonition (which the now L. Archbishop of Canterbury did afterwards confute) should be compiled, and offered unto the Parliament approaching, Anno. 1572. Against which time, it was also provided, that Beza should write his letterr, to a great man in this Land, for, and in the behalf of the chief contents thereof: uz. for the admitting in England, of the said Allobrogicall Discipline. Which office (you may be sure) he performed very willingly. Understanding (saith he) of an assembly of the Estate of England, 
Beza. 1572. Epist. 69.  wherein there would be dealing with matters of Religion, I could not chose, but writ unto you of that matter. And so he proceedeth; showing, that all men do allow of our doctrine, but not of our Discipline. That except, where there is pure doctrine, there be also pure discipline (meaning his own Genevian Darling): the Churches are little the better, and that therefore her Majesty, and her faithful Councillors should procure the setting up of this pure Discipline, notwithstanding any difficulties whatsoever that might hinder it. The same year also 1572. he writ to the Queen's Majesty, an Epistle dedicatory, before his annotations upon the new Testament. In the which, although he doth confess, that her Highness hath restored to this Land the true worship of God: yet he insinuateth that we want a full instauration of Ecclesiastical Discipline: that our Temples are not fully repurged: that some high places remain as yet not abolished: and wisheth that those wants and blemishes might be supplied and reform: meaning (as I think he would confess if he were deposed) that her Majesty should conform the present Apostolical and most ancient estate of the Church of England, unto that newly devised, & unbridled new-platforme of that demy-Parish of Geneva: as I may well call it by way of comparison. Now you must understand, that as our old English Genevians did wear out or grew out of date: So there did start up a new brood in their places. Cartwright and Travers finding (as it seemeth) that itching and stirring humour in themselves, which delighteth altogether in novelties, they would needs to Geneva. Where in short time they were notably confirmed in that doctrine of contradiction: & returned home, like the rest of our Genevian Proselytes, ten times more wayward than they were before. Which disposition of theirs being known to the Crew: who then but these two, after their several returns thence, to be the Champions successively, for the Allobrogicall Discipline? Since which times you shall find little omitted, of those Disciplinarian practices: whereby this Lady their Mistress most indirectly, and by all unlawful means, hath been elsewhere advanced. Their writings (I speak now generally of all our English Factioners, that have written for this forgery) are full of boldness, of Sophistications, of falsifications, of perverse wrest, of seditious assertions, and of many such corruptions. They have sought by all indirect and unlawful means, to allure the people unto them: and have entered into a kind of an association amongst themselves. Neither the Bishop of Geneva, nor the Bishops in Scotland (for aught I find) were ever more Turkifhly handled by Heathenish Libels and most unchristian calumniations, than our Bishops have been, by divers of these our Genevating Passavantians. By the like course also, and in the same manner, have they dealt (as far as possibly they durst) with her most excellent Majesty, with the high Court of Parliament, with the Lords of her highness most honourable Privy Council, and with the judges & Laws of the land. The reformation of religion, which almighty God hath wrought amongst us by her majesties means, some of them have termed a deformation: and all of them do disgrace and deprave it to their uttermost ability, most lewdly and falsely.  
Since the time, they have seen little hope, that her Majesty & the other states of this land, would ever give place to their unstaid vanities and Phaetonicall presumptions: they have applied themselves to the practice of the inseparable Disciplinarian adjunct mentioned: vz: that when such states do refuse, and will in no wise be persuaded to embrace and establish within their dominions, the pretended Church-Discipline, so liked of at Geneva: the Ministers may draw the people unto them by all manner of allurements, and so betwixt them set it up themselves. And in this course, they have already far proceeded: altogether (as you may perceive by the said act of Parliament in Scotland, Anno. 1584.) after the same manner that the Ministers of Scotland did proceed. They have had their subscriptions, their Synods of diverse sorts, Classical, Provincial, and General. In those Synods they have practised Censures, made laws of their own, and disallowed some of those, which the state of this realm hath made. Unto these and such like their private Conventicles, they have appropriated the name of the Church: and having separated themselves in a sort, from all those Christians, that favour not their mistress, they are become joined into a new brotherhood of the Allobrogicall Discipline. As there grew some occasion of fear amongst them, that these their Consistorial proceed, were likely to break forth, before they were ready and able, by the strength of their assistance to stand to their tackling: consultation was had, and the matter overruled, that none of that brotherhood, (if he were apprehended) should in any wise appeach another: but utterly refuse to detect such dealings of the godly brethren, as they themselves so greatly liked, and were of opinion to be most honest and just. He that would take the pains to peruse the examinations of Cartwright, and of some others in the star-chamber: (as any may easily do, now that they are published) should find all these particulars and many more, than here I will speak of, to be most true.  
And thus you see the Genevian Discipline devised by one man, procured at the first by his coming, great entreaty, and friendship, being then a simple and a poor Gentlewoman, God knoweth, fit peradventure, in the alteration of a Monarchy into a popular state, to receive some entertainment: but (as I say) now you may plainly see what a Lady she is grown to be: through the instigations and practices of master Caluin and Beza, and how and by what means she hath enlarged her Dominions, and set her foot into this Island, of Britain.  
I could further add hereunto: how they have not been content to keep themselves within the limits of Geneva, France, England, and Scotland, dealing as you have heard: but have sought to take the very same course in some other Countries likewise. Master Beza doubted not (as he saith) omnes principes hortari, to exhort all Princes, to admit of the Savoyan platform. 
Beza de presbyt. pag. 123.  And this you shall find a thing ordinary, both in master Caluins and master Bezaes' writings: that as soon, as they have heard from time to time of any country, that hath begun to abolish Popery: by and by, they have come upon them, with most earnest solicitations, and gloss for the contracting of this their gallant Consistorian minion with them. What letters have been written into Germany, Transiluania, and Polonia, wherein that point always playeth a chief part? One letter written by Beza into Polonia, I cannot choose but make mention of.  
After diverse attempts and suits made, in the behalf of their Discipline, to have had her placed in Polonia: one Sarnicius writ to Beza, (as it seemeth) in this sort: timetur altera tyrannis: now the Pope is banished, it is feared here, that this your platform of Discipline, would prove to be as tyrannous a kind of government, as ever the Popes was. 
Sar. in. Beza. Epist. 14.  Whereunto he answereth. Recte quidem: It is well said: sit ergo disciplinae regula verbum Dei. Let the word of God be the rule of Discipline. In effect as though he should have said: Let our platform at Geneva be admitted of amongst you: and then your Elders, they will easily see, what they may do, and how far they may proceed in causes, by the word of God. Or if they cannot: send to Geneva, as other Churches have done: and whilst I live, you shall have such authentical resolutions, as (you may be sure) shall prevent all that danger. And a little before in the said letter. Scis etc. you know there is one, 
Ibid.  and the self same author of doctrine and Discipline (meaning that of Geneva.) Quorsum igitur unam verbi partem, altar a repudiata reciperemus? to what purpose therefore should we receive one part of the word without the other?  
To what purpose shall we receive the doctrine of our salvation, by jesus Christ: except we receive also the manner of the Discipline used at Geneva? It was no lewder a saying of Pope Boniface (to my understanding,) 
Ex●●au, de maior, & obedient.  when he affirmed it a point of the necessity of salvation: for all men to be subject to the Bishop of Rome.  
If they of Zuricke, Berne, Schafhusin and Basill, the Magistrates and Ministers there, had but suspected, or once but dreamt, that their assisting of master Caluin to the having of his will over the Citizens of Geneva, would have grown to such insolency: would have brought forth such pride, such sedition and so great presumption, as that like Pharaoes' evil favoured and lean Cows, the said his devise would have sought to devour all other Churches, their orders, their service, and forms of Discipline, much fairer creatures, and in better liking, than his scragge: I am persuaded, that all the friendship, all the entreaties, devices and stratagems: nay all the gold and goods in the world, could never have drawn them unto it.  
But I will end this Chapter. They were no josephes', to foresee these mischiefs: or what a dearth of true reformation indeed, both in France, Germany, and diverse other places, the urging with such boldness, and violence, of such a mere fancy, and most apparent forgery, would procure, or did portend. Time hath disclosed it. And Gamaliels' Council hath proved true. The factioners in this folly have been so long suffered to take their own swinge: that now they are grown giddy, 
Acts. 5.  and find not what to stand upon. It was from men that they sought for: and therefore it beginneth already to come to nought: as by diverse points following, I trust it shall appear.   

CHAP. FOUR Our English Genevaters upon a better inquiry made: are grown to a great uncertainty touching sundry points of the Genevian platform.  

1. Thes. 5.  THe rule of the Apostle, being well understood, is very notable, where he saith: try all things, and keep that which is good. Many things have fair shows: but try them, and like the apples of Sodom, they fall into dust. In gold (the chiefest metal) there is great sophistication. He that will be easily led: is soon deceived. To hold a thing for good, before a man have tried it: (by such a touchstone as is meet for his calling,) I hold it great folly. The credit which Popery grew unto: did partly proceed of such rashness. Men were content, having a good opinion of their Priests to be led by them, as it were a Bear by the nose: and without any trial to accept in good part of whatsoever they gave them. And as the people were carried thus away by their own persuasions of their Priests: so were the poor Priests themselves (many of them no doubt) misled through the honourable regard, which they had of their superiors.  
It is wonderful, what time and custom will work. A man may tell a lie so oft, that forgetting himself to be the author of it: he may think he heard it, at the first from some person of credit, and so believe it to be true. It may be that the Bishops of Rome, through the continual flattery of their Parasites, telling them still, they could not err, and that they were the Lords of the whole world: though at the first, they knew they lied: yet afterwards, beginning by little and little to believe them, they are now in time come to this, that he who saith otherwise, they will by no means endure him: he is become an heretic, and I wots not what. The Bishops also and other great learned men, following the streams as they ran in their days: did grow by degrees to reckon of the Popes, as they found them, in their times, to account of themselves. And thus I suppose, (or at the least by some such means) that both the Priests of all sorts, and likewise the people, became in time, to be so drowned in the puddles of Popery: all of them together from the top to the toe, forgetting the Apostles said rule, of trying every thing whatsoever, before they held it for good. Which notable point of this Apostocall wisdom being of later years fallen into practice, by every man that feared God: according to the measure of his gifts and as his calling did require: we see it to be true by our own experience, that even children now (in a manner) are able to discern the truth, in sundry things, wherein many men of judgement and good learning were heretofore blinded. And even in some such like sort hath it happened in this matter of the Geneva Discipline.  
Men have been carried headlong with it, before they knew well what they did: and all under godly pretences. It is a plausible matter with the people, to hear them depraved, that are in authority: but especially to understand of any liberty or power which may appertain to themselves. Besides when men have been bitten with abuses, it is an acceptable point, to hear the things themselves which were abused, exclaimed against. For it falleth not under every simple man's cap: to distinguish well in that matter. Furthermore also it is not unknown, to any of judgement, what the profession of any extraordinary zeal, and as it were, contempt of the world: doth work with the multitude. When they see men go simply in the streets: looking downward for the most part: wring their necks awry: shaking their heads, as though they were in some present grief: lifting up the white of their eyes sometimes, at the sight of some vanity, as they walk: when they hear them give great groans: cry out against this sin, and that sin, (not in them their hearers, but in their superiors) make long prayers, profess a kind of wilful poverty, speaking most earnestly against some men's having too much, and some men too little (which beateth into the people's heads a present cogitation of some division to be made in time.) when I say the multitude doth see, and hear such kind of men: they are by and by carried away with a marvelous great conceit and opinion of them: especially when withal they take upon them to show a way or manner of Discipline; which shallbe (forsooth) nothing prejudicial to the people: but rather bring them great liberty, and yet shallbe such a way, as shall reform all things amiss, and that in such sort, as they themselves would either wish or desire.  
And as many people in this our time have been thus beguiled, by a certain crew of Ministers: so they the Ministers amongst themselves, upon the like outward shows, and false pretences, in this point I speak of, (concerning the pretended holy Discipline) have been greatly misled, one sort by another: the inferior, by the superior, (as by Cartwright and some others) and these superiors here, with us, by two men especially, master Caluin, and master Beza, whilst the first sort have wholly depended upon the second, and the second upon the third.  
Master Caluin that devised the said platform, was surely an excellent man: and so is master Beza, who since that time hath been the principal maintainer of it. But yet both of them in their times: have not wanted the common affections of men. Much trouble there was, before their said devise was received: which made them afterwards the fonder of it. We have a saying, that the Crow thinketh her own bird the fairest: and so do men and women (for the most part) their own children. Nature doth therein bear sway with the best. But especially she showeth her force most, in the fruits of a man's mind. For as our minds ought to be more dear unto us, than our bodies: so are the fruits of our minds, of greater account with us, than the fruits of our bodies. Few men that we hear of, will give their lives for their children: but many we see, will do it most readily in the maintenance of their opinions. Which things considered, I cannot but in some sort excuse master Caluin, and master Beza: in seeking all manner of ways, all shows, all shifts, all advantages, that possibly they could either find or devise: whereby they might justify in some sort the birth and bringing up of their misconceaved offpring. The chiefest oversight was in my opinion, that other learned and wise men, do not well observe, these manner of natural and common affections in them: but were carried after them (as it were with a whirlwind) to like as they liked, to say as they said, and to do as they did. If master Caluin and master Beza affirmed it: why it was enough.  
I have heard it credibly reported that in a certain College in Cambridge, when it happeneth that in there disputations, the authority either of Saint Augustine, or of Saint Ambrose, or of Saint Jerome, or of any other of the ancient Fathers: nay the whole consent of them all altogether is alleged: it is rejected with very great disda●ne: as: what tell you me of Saint Augustine, Saint Ambrose, or of the rest? I regard them not a rush: were they not men? Whereas at other time, when it happeneth that a man of an other humour doth answer, if it fall out that he being pressed with the authority either of Caluin or Beza, shall chance to deny it: you shall see some begin to smile, in commiseration of such the poor man's simplicity: some grow to be angry in regard of such presumption: and some will departed away, accounting such a kind of fellow, not worthy the hearing. Were not this a pretty and pleasant Interlude, or Comedy: to behold such Parasites, playing their parts, so Disciplinarian-like▪ And all these follies and dependences; that the people have doted so much after some kind of Ministers: that the inferior sort of those ministers have taken all for currant coin, that hath been paid them by their superiors: and that they the superiors have been also so far overcaried with the credit of the said two persons: all these follies (I say) did proceed from this fountain, that neither the people, nor their rash seducers, did in time put the holy Apostles rule in practice: uz. try all things, and keep that which is good. But it is better late than never. Since men of all sorts, have entered more carefully into the trial of all the said pretences, together with the very substance of that their pretended holy platform, the furious rage of that flood hath been prettily well diverted. And the very chief Captains themselves, being urged of necessity a little to fall on searching: have found that (which I fear) they are sorry for: and are become (as it seemeth) like men greatly amazed, to be at their wit's end. And now to this purpose I will tell you a wonder.  
If Cartwright and his adherents were to begin the course again, that they have run: I am persuaded, they would never tread so much as one step in it. But now they have engaged their credits, they must shift things of, aswell as they can: and where their wards serve them not, beare-of the blows, that shall fall upon them, with their heads and shoulders. In the year 1572. (as you have heard in the former Chapter) the first admonition was offered to the Parliament, as containing a perfect platform of the worthy pretended Discipline, to have been established within this Realm. Within a year or two after, Cartwright taking in hand the defence of that platform: did alter it in some points, especially where it seemed to ascribe too much unto the people. And then if it be true which is reported: that one desiring upon a time conference with him, about these manner of causes; he answered: what need you to talk with me? you may have my Books, they are Est and Amen: I doubt not but he would have sworn upon convenient occasion, that the admonitioners platform, so qualified by him, was a most perfect pattern for all Churches. Howbeit within a while after, it proved not so. For about the year 1583. where before the plaltform of Geneva (as it was left at large in Cartwrigts Books) had been followed: now there was a particular draft made for England, with a new form of common Prayer therein prescribed.  
The year ensuing 1584. the seven and twentieth of her Majesty, out starteth this Book, with great glory at the Parliament time: and forthwith the present government of the Church, with all the orders, laws and ceremonies thereof, was to be cut-off at one blow, and this new book or platform must needs be established. But it prevailed not. Shortly after that Parliament, the said book and platform was found amongst themselves, to have some thing amiss in it. And the correcting of it was referred to Traverse. 
A letter of Field to Travers 1585.  Which work by him performed, came out again about the year 1586. when there was an other Parliament in the nine and twentieth of her majesties reign. But it was then (as I suppose) severed from the said book of Common prayer: and become an entire work of itself. And then also at the said Parliament there wanted not diverse solicitors, 
Examinat in the Star-cha-  for the admittance of it. Afterwards a new conference was had again, about this second corrected book. For still there were some things out of square in it.  
In the year 1588. at an assembly in Coventry, these doubts, 
Ibidem.  which were grown, were (as it seemeth) debated: and so were many other, Cartwright himself being present. But which of the said doubts in their plaltform were then resolved, I find it not. This appeared, that some of them remained, which they were not able to resolve upon. 
Ibidem.  For although they then concluded, that the platform itself was an essential form of Discipline, necessary for all times: & subscribed unto the practice of the greatest part of it, without any further expecting the magistrates pleasure: yet in their subscriptions, they excepted some few points, which were reserved to be discussed, by certain brethren in an other assembly. Where this assembly was kept, I canuot certainly affirm. 
Articles annexed to their book of dis.  But it appeareth upon deposition, that the next year after, there was one held in Saint john's College in Cambridge. Where Cartwright being again present and many more beside: diverse imperfections in the said Book of Discipline were corrected altered and amended: 
Master Barber examined in the Star. chamber.  and there they did not only perfect the said Book: but also did then and there (as the examinate remembered) voluntarily agree amongst themselves, that so many as would, should subscribe to the said Book of Discipline after that time.  
Well then, at the last, I trust we have found out, what they are agreed upon: and what they will stand unto. You see there hath been much plotting amongst them: and it is time (a man would think) that after such stirs, meetings, conferences, and Synods made in that behalf: they should be resolved at the last of the things they desire. But now I come to my wonder, before mentioned: for so I esteem of it. Cartwright, and the chiefest of those, that have been lately in prison, in one of their foresaid examinations in the star-chamber, do plainly avouch it, upon their oaths: (and so I believe them) that there are some things in their said draft of Discipline, wherein as yet they were never resolved. What? Is neither, Geneva, France, nor Scotland, able to satisfy them? Have they sought unto them for their opinions: and do they disdain to make them any answer? Or else think they scorn to ask council of any men: but had rather, than they would so much discredit themselves, dwell still in their doubts? Surely I would be very glad to know what doubts these were, wherein as yet, they were never resolved. I have desired diverse, to have told me of them: but they would not. Notwithstanding I will tell you, what I guess, they were; not at random (as they say) but upon some good probability. I met by chance with a paper, of no mean man's among them, wherein (as I take it) some of them (at the least) are expressed, and they are these following.  
Whether there ought to be Doctors in every Church? 
W. F.   
Whether the Doctors may administer the sacraments?  
Whether there ought to be women Deacons in every reformed Church?  
Whether the Presbytery be not described, too generally, obscurely, and very imperfectly?  
Whether suspension may be proved by the word of God?  
Whether suspension can be proved to be a censure of the Church?  
Whether the Elders ought not to be perpetual as the Pastors are?  
Whether men must stand to the sentence of the greater part of the Consistory?  
Whether marriages and spousals, and things concerning them: do belong to the ministers?  
Whether there should be sureties in Baptism?  
Whether there ought to be no abstaining from, or noting of such a one, as for disobedience to the Consistories admonition, is in the way of excommunication?  
Unto these quaerees, I could add some other if I list. What if Beza himself, begin to doubt, as concerning his Discipline: or at the least begin to find some defects in it? What if he desire to be caput Episcoporum: the head of all Bishops within his province? what if he would have the presidentship of every Synod to be a continual office? But hereof afterwards in the chapter. In the mean while, I could wish with all my heart, that those who are wise, would thoroughly consider, how this Church of England, and the state of the whole Realm, her Majesty, the high Court of Parliament, the present form of our Ecclesiastical government with the laws and orders thereunto appertaining, and generally all her highness dutiful and loving subjects have been used, by these so distracted, so presumptuous, and so notorious rash-pates: in that after so many admonitions, supplications, petitions, depravations, invections, humble motions, draughts, platforms, demonstrations, and what not? (which have bred already a million, of great inconveniences and mischiefs.) Now being pressed upon their oaths, they are constrained to acknowledge, that as yet they are not resolved in all points what they would have. If the state had been as rash in their grants, as they have been shameless in their demands: peradventure the Realm and Church of England by this time, might have been in some such like case, as (if sundry reports be true) there be some in the world.  
It may be here objected peradventure, that supposing the testimony alleged for the doubts mentioned, were sufficient: yet they are but about matters of small importance: whereas in points of substance they do all concur and are agreed together. Whether the doubts which I showed unto you, be of any importance or not: I leave it to your consideration. Indeed, if a man may say the truth, without their offence, there is nothing which they hold concerning this Allobrogicall devise, wherein we do withstand them, that is of any good importance of substance. But for any agreement or resolution in any of the parts of their platform, whether of substance almost or not of substance, you shall not find it I assure you amongst them: as in the process following it will appear. And I am of opinion, that they will disagree every day more and more: until by trial of their former rashness, they shallbe contented to embrace the present form of Ecclesiastical government in England, and from the bottom of their hearts thank almighty God for it.   

CHAP. V With what distraction, uncertainty, diversity of judgements, pretence is made, that the Geneva Discipline is of very great antiquity.  
AS I have said, in the second chapter, if my life lay upon it, I could not find, that there was ever in the world, any such platform of Discipline, as is now urged, by the patrons and defenders of it, before master Caluin devised it, and with much trouble set it up, at the last in Geneva. I know it is said now a days: that it is of a far greater antiquity. And if I were not otherwise by reading settled, I might peradventure be overcarried that way with their pretences. The Heralds at arms they say, can do very much, in a man's pedigree. Though peradventure his Gentility be not of fifty years standing: yet if need require, William conquerors time is nothing: they will fetch it from Adam. You shall have the first finder out, Baths in England: 
The Book of the Baths.  so gentilized. And even such a like course is taken, for the Geneva Discipline. She must needs be a Lady, of an ancient stock. And therefore her feed Heralds do take great pains in her behalf. Such chopping and changing: such claiming and disclaiming of kindreds: such coating, intercoating & quartering of her arms, with this great parsonage in that country, and with another as great in this country: you shall rarely find (I am verily persuaded) in all the ancient records and rules of Herrauldry. To leap over a thousand and five hundred years, at the first skip, over almost two thousand years at the next, and in a manner to Noah's Ark at the third: is but a small matter with them. There was never poor gentlewoman's credit more sought to be set forth: with the smoky images of her worm-aten ancestors, than hers is. The Geneva platform to be reckoned so late a devise, as that master Caluin should be the first author of it: they cannot abide it.  
But I will come to their first skip: which is in effect, from the year above mentioned 1541. unto the Apostles time backward. For as I remember I have read it in one of their books: that in all the ancient fathers, you shall find a little, but as it were of the ruins of it.  
But the ruins of it in all the ancient fathers? What luck had they, that the building of so gorgeous a piece of work, stood not in their days, as now it standeth in Geneva, that they might have seen the beauty, and the glory of it. If it were so ruinated before the times, wherein the ancient fathers lived: then surely it will follow (in spite of whosoever saith nay) that it is of greater antiquity, than all the fathers were of. But I marvel how it grew into such ruin, before their times. For (to my understanding) the Apostles times, were next before the time of the ancient fathers. The learned discourser, will help us, for this plunge, 
Learned discourse. pag. 7  out of the briars. The ecclesiastical offices (saith he) namely of Pastors, Doctors, Governors, and Deacons, were exercised in the primitive and pure Church, until the mystery of iniquities, (working a way for Antichristes pride and presumption,) changed God's ordinance, etc. And when was that? The mystery of iniquity began to work in the Apostles days. 
2. Thes. 2.  Was it then? Peradventure he meaneth, that immediately after the Apostles times, there was some age, wherein there lived no ancient fathers: and that then this mischief was wrought. I would it had pleased him, to have devised such a proviso, in the behalf of those most notable men: many of them very godly and holy Martyrs. But the discourser was (as it seemeth) a plain man: he will lay the fault, where it was: as indeed it is reason, that every man should bear his own burden. Hear him therefore again. Our fathers of old time, 
Learned disc. pag. 12.  were not content with the simple order instituted by Christ, and established by his Apostles: but for better governing of the Church thought good: some offices to add thereunto, some to take away, some to alter, and change, and in effect to pervert and overthrow all christian and Ecclesiastical policy, which was builded upon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles, jesus Christ being the chief corner stone. A strange conceit, that all the ancient fathers, should thus conspire, to thrust Christ out of his kingdom: and to overthrow all Christian policy. What? not a man amongst them, as learned and as godly affected, as either Caluin, Beza, or this discourser? Not one in those ages that would stand to Christ's Discipline? A pitiful case. But I promise you, for my part: I rather doubt of the discoursers credit in this point: then that I will think, there should be such dishonesty, in the ancient Fathers. Nay I durst certainly swear it, that if there had been any such government of Christ in their days, they would have been as careful, for the continuance of it, as any of the purest platformers in Christendom.  
Travers in his Book of Ecclesiastical Discipline, maketh eight degrees of the declination of this new pretended regiment: to have grown before the Council of Nice: procured (as he saith) cunningly by Satan: 
Fol. 140. 141.  but yet so, that (as he addeth) there are evidences to be showed of sundry parts of it, in the writings of the ancient Fathers etc., and that also in this age, 
pag. 103.  it is exercised in France, the low Countries, and in Scotland. 
pag. 9  All out of square, from the Apostles times: till Geneva was illuminated. Some blind evidences there may be found, (he saith) for sundry parts of that Discipline: whereby a man may conceive, that there was once such a thing in being. Well, yet if that were true, the ancient Fathers deserve some little commendation: in that they were content to leave some scrolls or shivers of it unto their posterity. To the same purpose also in another place the same party confesseth, that the ordinary offices (as he termeth them) in the Apostles times, 
pag. 79.  have been now of many years out of use, either in part, or altogether afore the last restoring of the Gospel in this age. A great leap (as I think) from the Apostles time: to this ourage. If I had framed the scope of my second Chapter, after this man's pleasure: I might (as you see) have safely set it down with Traverse consent: that from the Apostles times, till master Caluin was fully placed in Geneva, the now pretended order & form of Ecclesiastical Discipline, was not to have been found in all the world.  
Master Cartwright, though he say in his first Book, that the Eldership did most flourish in Constantine's time, 
pag. 182.  and defendeth the same, 
pag. 67.  in the second part of his 2. reply, (saving that he leaveth out the word most) with such shifting and falsehood, as I durst make any learned man judge of his dealing therein: yet (I say) in his Table to the first part of his second reply, and also in the second part thereof: he acknowledgeth in effect (to my understanding) that of the Elderships declining, there are to be found in the Fathers, but certain traces and marks, whereby we might come to the knowledge of it: 
Ibid. pag. 43.  and understand that certain Churches, (as at Alexandria) went out of the way. As if he should have said: look how a man seeketh for a Hare in the snow, and seldom findeth her, till he come to her form: so you must seek, for the Eldership (as now it is urged) in the ancient Fathers: still pricking after it: till having run past all them, you come to the form of it, in the Apostles times. Or, as if he had said: the best use that a man can have, either of the ancient fathers, or of the Ecclesiastical writers is this, concerning the Genevian Discipline: that a man by them may learn, when men go out of their right way, but how to get in again, when we are once out: if you will have any direction for that point: you must either go to Geneva, or to him, or to some of his fellows. There goeth the Hare away: for the Fathers cannot help you.  
But believe me, such is my dullness, as I do not well discern: how these words of Cartwrights' will stand well together, with those of the Elderships flourishing in Constantine's time: seeing now in the ancient Fathers, we have so little of it: uz. only as it were some few marks, traces or footsteps of a thing which had been, and was gone before their times. For as concerning the state of the Church in Constantine's time, there are whole Cart-loads of most pregnant evidences, in the ancient Fathers of it: & yet but traces (as he saith) or empty steps in them, for his Eldership. In effect as if he had said, the Geneva Discipline flourished most when it was not. One that hath sent us, a printed Book out of Scotland, taking upon him to know belike, the minds of all the Scottish Ministers, that seek for the pretended Discipline, as concerning the time, how long they account it, since it was in any good reparation, saith plainly: (not as Cartwright affirmeth, that it flourished most in Constantine's time) but thus: we must needs confess in deed, that this government of the Church fell to decay long before the Council of Nice. 
Disco. against R.B. Ser. p. 21.  But yet one step further, after master Cartwrights' doubling: where speaking in his second book of the corruption, (as he termeth it) that one Bishop had a pre-eminence given him above other ministers (which he cannot deny to have been an ordinance in Alexandria from Saint Marks time etc.) he saith: from the first day, wherein this devise was established, corruption grew in the Church etc. 
Lib. 2. pa. 569  And the first resistance by any settled Church against that corruption, was by those that abolished that devise of man, and received the order in the Apostles times, touching the equality of Ministers: as the Bohemians, Merindols', the Churches in Germany, and Geneva. See, what carieers are here. From Geneva to the Apostles times; and thence back again to Geneva at a leap. From Saint Marks time, till the time here limited: the pretended Presbytery with all the compliments thereof (as now it is urged) hath lain alla-mort. No one settled Church, (that is, in Cartwrightes' language,) no one particular parish in all the world, for a 1500. years, did ever account it unlawful for a Bishop to have authority above other Ministers. Or thus: there hath not been upon the face of the earth, within the space of a thou sand & five hundred years, so much as in any one parish, such an equality amongst the Ministers of the word of God, as is now pretended to be in the Presbytery at Geneva: and so consequently in all that time not such a Presbytery. Or thus: within the compass of the Heavens, there hath not been one Church for above 1500- years: that ever dealt so with Bishops, as of late they have been dealt withal, especially in Geneva, and in some other such places as have followed therein the example of that City.  
Well hitherto than you see, that since we came from Geneva: vz: the year 1541. the men themselves that talk so much of their Geneva platform: cannot find it flourishing, in the days of all the ancient fathers, nor in all the world for the space of above 1500. years. The fathers, (alas) some of them were but simple men: some were ambitious, and some were ignorant. They poor men had small experience: and less policy. They wanted judgement, and zeal: either to discern, or to keep in her virginity, this gallant Dalila. They chopped and changed, the institution of Christ at their pleasure. Any examples that shall be fet from them: are very dangerous. They were but men. But if you will leap over all them, and come to Geneva: there you shall find wise men, learned men, humble men, zealous men, nay rather Angels, than men: there you shall see the glorious ranks of Elders, sitting upon their thrones: the worshipful company of Deacons, attending upon the contributions, the well Disciplined multitude, bringing in the price of their lands and goods, and pouring all down at the Deacons feet: there Christ carrieth his own sceptre, in Bezaes' hand: there this pretended holy Discipline, so disgraced by the fathers, so corrupted and so defaced: there she reigneth, there she flourisheth, and there she is magnified. 
The author of a brief discourse of troubles in Germany. pa. 49.  The Church of Geneva (saith a good fellow) is the purest reformed Church (forsooth) in Christendom. Again, Geneva is the chiefest place of true comfort in Earth. Now, what is here said of Geneva, and her Ministers: except you extend it, to all other Churches and Ministers, that follow the Geneva platform: they will be angry with you, and think themselves (as I suppose) to be very greatly disgraced.  
But I will leave them clawing one of another, and come to the Apostles times: to see if the Geneva Church-government, may be found out amongst them. For either there, or no where. The Apostle Saint john lived much longer than any of the rest of the Apostles did. Saint Jerome saith that he lived after Christ's passion, threescore & eight years. So as the Apostles times, after the largest account, are not further to be extended. Now (as Baronius collecteth out of Eusebius) Saint Mark was Bishop of Alexandria about 19 years: and died about the thirtieth year after Christ's ascension. So as Saint john outlived Saint Mark, some 38. years. After this reckoning, if the Church of Alexandria should have departed from Christ's institution, and so clean have disgraced the glory of this feigned Eldership, when there was a Bishop made there; according to Cartwrightes' assertion: then before we can find, the Geneva platform, in such perfection as it is in that City: we must cut of the said 19 years, (wherein Saint Mark had departed so grossly from Christ's ordinance) from the before mentioned 68 years, (the full extent of the apostles time:) which being done, you have but eleven years, wherein there is any hope for the pretended purity, and practise of the Geneva Discipline, to shadow or shroud herself.  
Yea, but where Saint Jerome saith, that there were Bishops in Alexandria, 
Lib. 1. pa. 107.  from Saint Marks time, etc. Cartwright hath this shift: vz: that the words from Saint Marks time may be taken exclusively, to shut out Saint Mark. Whereby to save Saint Marks credit, that an Evangelist should not be thought, to have broken the neck of Christ's government: he would have this great defection, to have been presently after Saint Marks time: and so he excludeth Saint Mark (after the Geneva fashion) quite and clean out of his Bishopric: and will needs suppose, that he was never Bishop, contrary to Saint Ieromes express words in sundry places, and contrary to the full consent and agreement of all the ancient fathers, and of all the ecclesiastical histories. But be it, as he would have it: yet let the reckoning be newly cast up again, and it falleth out, that this supposed departing from Christ's institution, was about thirty and eight years, before S. john died. Which standeth hardly with the reputation of the Apostles times in my opinion. But that, is no great matter. We know (saith the author of the foresaid book, that was sent us from Scotland) Diotrephes to have been in the Church, 
Page. 21.  even in the Apostles times: and we are assured, he could never be gotten out of it, since the first hour, that he set his footing therein. And therefore we cannot greatly marvel, though even in their time, there had been a diverse government from this of the lords appointment, which we labour for. For even in the Apostles times the mystery of iniquitte began to work. And what? will they say of Saint john the Apostle, and of all the rest of them, that outlived Saint Mark: as they have done of all the ancient fathers? was there so small intelligence, amongst those most provident and wise holy men: that there could be so notorious a defection in Alexandria, so famous a City, and they never to hear of it? Or shall we think, that they heard of it, and conspired together, to overthrow Christ's institution? It may be said, that peradventure, they heard of it, and reproved it: but could not reform it. Very well. But where be then their admonitions, petitions, supplications, and libels against it? Where be their suspensions, excommunications and givings over to Satan? Not a word of that abuse, in Saint john's Gospel, written after the supposed defection? but especially could he have pretermitted such a high point: in the book of his Revelations? Or had he so many Revelations of other matters, of less importance (forsooth); and was such an overthrow of Christ's kingdom, kept from him? The Disciplinarian shifts in this case, (to make the best of them) can be but slanderous and desperate.  
But to grant (to all of them) the acceptation of the Apostles times, after the largest account: there is (surely) nothing less to be found in those times, than the Geneva platform. For then as particular congregations professed the Gospel: you should have found a Priest, or minister of the word and Sacraments, 
Tit. 1.5. 2. Tim. sub. beside the judgement of all the aun-cient fathers. Tit. 1.5.  placed in them. In Cities, where there were diverse such congregations, or whereunto sundry congregations of the country did appertain: than you should have found some Timothy a Bishop to govern them. After that diverse Cities had received the Gospel: or some whole Country: it was not long, but some Titus was placed as Archbishop over them. The twelve Apostles were in those times as twelve Patriarches, for all the world: 
Beza annot. Act. 1.2.  who planted, directed, visited, commanded, and appointed the foresaid Church governors: and what else they thought meet, for the benefit of the church. If I were presently to leave this life, and should speak what I thought of the present form of Ecclesiastical government, at this time in the Church of England: I would take it upon my soul, (so far as my judgement serveth me) that it is much more Apostolical, than any other form of government, that I know in any other reformed Church in the world. As for these men, that talk so much of the Apostles times: they are indeed but brablers. Their devised regiment, hath not any resemblance at all, of that: which was in the Apostles times. They have perverted in deed the true meaning of certain places, both in the scriptures and in the ancient fathers, for a show to serve their turns, (as after it shall appear): and other proofs from those times, they have not any.  
But you will say: this is denied. It is so: and of that elsewhere. Howbeit in the mean while, that cannot hinder my purpose: to search out, the pretended antiquity of it. For it is confessed by them; that the Apostles practised no other form of Ecclesiastical government in their times; then Christ himself, in his time did ordain, and assign unto them, to be practised afterwards. And what form was that? Forsooth (they say) it was the very same form of Church regiment, that was amongst the jews: and that Christ, when he said, Dic Ecclesiae, tell the Church, did translate the same, (being called Sanedrim, Council or Senate) into the Church: to be the only lawful government thereof, unto the end of the world. So as here then we must fetch another frisk about: to search for the antiquity of the jewish Senate.  
Master Caluin, after he had devised the Geneva platform, and leapt over more than a thousand and five hundred years for the strengthening of it, by those words of Christ, tell the Church: upon occasion, he further saith: that as far as his ancient records will serve him, the foresaid jewish Sanedrim, was devised by the jews, after their return out of captivity: which was upon the point of five hundred years before Christ: 
Calu. in Mat. 18.  Scimus etc. we know that from the time, that the jews returned out of the captivity of Babylon, the censure of manners and of doctrine, was committed, to a chosen Counsel, which they called Sanedrim: in Greek, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉. Hoc legitimum fuit, Deoque probatum regimen, etc. This was a lawful regiment, and allowed of God. And again, to cut of all childish cavilles, how to shift this place: (as that Caluin saith not, that it was then first instituted): the same e Caluin speaketh hereof more plainly: where entreating of the seventy Elders, Numbers 2. that were chosen to assist Moses, he hath these words: Certum quidem est. etc. it is very certain that when the jews were returned from the captivity of Babylon: because it was not lawful for them to create a king, they did imitate this example in erecting of their Sanedrim. Here is then the time, as plainly set down again, as needeth: uz. after the Captivity: the cause why they ordained it: uz. because they might have no King: and the pattern they did imitate: uz. Moses choosing of seventy Elders, to assist him, in his government.  
But all this will not yet serve the turn. For besides many other exceptions, which are taken to Master Caluins' extraction of the jews Sanedrim, out of Christ's words, tell the Church: this is one: that if they will needs enforce such a government upon the Church, as was amongst the jews,: than they mean belike, to wrest from the Prince, the civil sword; and to deal themselves in civil causes, by their own authority, which they have so much condemned in others, (though they meddle not otherwise with them, then by the Prince's appointment): for that the jewes-sayd government or Sanedrim, had to do as well in civil causes, as in any other that were Ecclesiastical. Their answer to this exception is, that in deed the government they speake-of, had to deal in Christ's time, with civil causes, 
Beza de ex. come. pag. 106 107. 108. etc. Annot. Mar. 52.  de facto, but not de iure: and that the Priests, judaicis rebus confusis, through their pride and ambition, had craftily and corruptly, procured such unlawful authority unto themselves: to the defacing and hindrance of the lords institution, 
Bez. ser. cont. Erast. fol. 37  by Moses at the first. See how they carry us, from post to pillar. Master Caluin is no body with Beza. Now we must yet further backward, uz. from the restitution of the jews out of Babylon; to Moses' his time: almost a thousand and five hundred years. Surely master Caluin, should have been as well acquainted with Moses' doings, as Beza is: for that he hath written Commentaries, upon all his five Books: which Beza hath not. If Caluin in sifting the Text, so painfully as he hath done, could find no such matter in Moses, as Beza pretendeth: it doth greatly prejudice, (in my opinion) his lighter conceit. 
Beza count Erast. fol. 37.  But hear his words. We must omnia revocare ad institutionem Domini per Mosem loquentis, ut quid iure factum sit intelligamus: Call every thing to the institution of the Lord, speaking by Moses, if we will have a true understanding of this government, and of the right authority thereof.  
Very well. Here than we must have a new issue. We must set up (as I said) the Church-governement, which the Apostles practised: the Apostles practised the government that Christ appointed: Christ appointed the jews Sanedrim, to be in every parish: the jews Sanedrim was corrupted: and therefore we are now sent from Geneva, to Moses: to understand what he will say unto us of this matter. Was there ever any form of government: that hath had so evil fortune? A government so long since ordained, not to continue for the time of the law only, but even unto the worlds end: and never to be in such use, as it ought to have been, except it were for some eleven, or some 38. years, (and not that neither,) until this our age, that Geneva hath refined it? Miranda canunt, sed non credenda poëtae. They tell us wonders.  
But because, we must be carried so far: let us see indeed, the institution of it. I trust that point will be made most manifest unto us. Therefore I would desire to know, where the Lord did institute this their ecclesiastical Senate? The effect of Bezaes' answer (if I have judgement to gather it) is this. 
Lib. de presb. pag. 103.  jehosophat appointed such a kind of Senate in his time: Mosis proculdubio praescriptum secutus, following (proculdubio) without doubt, the prescript of Moses. And where learned jehosophat that prescript? Had he it out of Moses written books, or by tradition? what? must the beginning of this, so singular a regiment, proceed from a tradition? But it may be said, that although it cannot be showed in Moses, where or when it was instituted: yet you shall find in the tenth of Leutticus, the jurisdiction of it plainly set forth: 
Beza contra. Erast.  which argueth manifestly, that there was such a regiment, before that time, instituted by Moses. It is well said. Let us then see the place. The words are these. And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: thou shalt not drink wine nor strong drink, thou nor thy sons with thee, when ye come into the tabernacle of the congregation, 
Levit. 10. ver. 8.9.10.11.  &c: that ye may put difference, between the holy and the unholy, and between the clean, and the unclean, and that ye may teach the children of Israel, all the statutes which the Lord hath commanded them, by the hand of Moses. 
Beza de presbyt. 104.  Here (saith master Beza) Synedrij ecclesiastici iurisdictio manifestissimis verbis a civili distinguitur: the jurisdiction of the ecclesiastical Senate is most plainly distinguished from the civil. And again: Dico his paucis verbis declarari, quaecunque tunc erant verè 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 nempe inter sanctum & prophanum: inter mundum & immundum discernere, & legem domini docere: ac proinde judicare de controversijs ob eas causas exortis. I do affirm it, that in these few words are set down, what causes soever were in those days rightly accounted spiritual: that is to say, to discern between the holy and unholy, the clean and the unclean, and to teach the law of the Lord.  
Of this exposition in another place. We are yet dealing with the pedigree of this government. Hereunto therefore this is objected. Let this interpretation go a while as currant: yet here is no mention of any other, to exercise this jurisdiction, but only of Aaron and his two sons. Where are then their governing Elders? What is become of them? How chanceth it, that they are not mentioned? To this master Beza, 
De presbit. pag 102.  writing of his ecclesiastical regiment, saith. Erant Leuitae in Synagogis, penes quos adhibitis, ut probabile est, aliquibus illustribus civibus, erat spiritualis administratio. There were Levites in every Synagogue, who having joined in commission with them, certain chief Citizens, (as it is probable) had the administration of all spiritual causes. And lest you should think, that master Beza his probabile est, were no good warrant, to build so great a matter upon: you shall hear what account it carrieth in Geneva.  
There came out from thence not long agone, a book: translated since into English, and printed in Scotland: termed, & so interpreted, Propositions and Principles of Divinity. Amongst the which principles (in my latin book) these are three: vz: It appeareth in Moses book, that as Moses with his 70. 
Cap. 86.  did exercise his civil jurisdiction: so Aaron with his assistants, priests and Levites, had chief authority in the ecclesiastical: 2. And furthermore, there were amongst the jews certain men, whom they called capita patrum, the heads of the fathers, etc. quos verisimile est fuisse etiam Synedrij ecclesiastici parts, etc. who were parts (it is likely) of the ecclesiastical Council. 3. Constat ergo in ecclesia judaica fuisse huic ordini ecclesiastico constitutos rectores. It is manifest therefore that in the churches of the jews, these men were assigned, and joined to the said Priests, and Levites, to be rulers and governors. Verisimile est: it is likely: constat ergo: therefore it is manifest. As though a man should reason thus. It is probable, that these men that dare thus abuse the world, have made a shipwreck of their consciences: therefore it is manifest, that they have done so. Unto how many kings, princes, Countries, and states, hath master Beza written, for the advancement of this his pretended government? What petitions, supplications, demonstrations, motions, admonitions, discourses, complaints (and I know not what) have been published amongst us, in England to the same effect? And is all now come to this point, probabile est? Can Beza himself find no other ground, for his Elders? Doth it depend but upon likelihoods and probabilities, by your own confessions: whether almighty God did ever as yet institute any such government or not?  
But to pass by Beza with his probabile est: and to come to master Cartwright, another manner of fellow. He (it seemeth) doth account master Beza, to be, but a simple man in respect of himself: in that he deemed the Eldership to be of no longer continuance, then since Moses' time. 
T.C. lib. 3. pa. 40.  This government (saith he, by the Eldership) was taken from the government of the people of God before the Law. And it began as soon as there is any mention made of any fixed form of a Church, 
In the table of that book.  which standing of diverse households, were divided into particular assemblies. Beza is then (you see) deceived: who said that Moses did institute the Eldership. It was long (you hear) before his time. Did I not tell you; we should be brought (in effect) to Noah's Ark? But let us consider of his proof, that maketh him so peremptory in this point. You shall not find him so lose I trust: as to dash us in the teeth with probabile est. Inevitable demonstrations, or nothing from him. Forsooth (saith he) it is thus written in Exodus 4. 
Ibidem.  So Moses and Aaron went and gathered all the Elders of the children of Israel: and Aaron told all the words which the Lord had spoken to Moses etc. And what then? Indeed, that would be heard: for as yet, this point runneth harshly. But (saith Cartwright) that these were Ecclesiastical officers, thereby it may appear: for that under such a tyrant, and such oppression, as the Israelites were in, it is altogether unlike, 
Ibidem.  that they should have the benefits of Magistrates of their own. Indeed now he hath won his spurs. In effect all that he saith, is but thus much: It is likely that the Elders he buildeth upon, were such officers as he dreameth of. It is likely. It is probable.  
Well, I trust the vizards of such maskers will be so thoroughly weatherbeaten (in short time,) as that the simplest will be able, to discern their deformities. For in this cause assuredly, (they pretending only probabilities) all probabilities indeed are flatly against them. Is it probable, if Christ had appointed any such government, as they speak of, to have continued to the end of the world, or if the Apostles themselves had ordained or practised it, in their times: that all the ancient Martyrs, Counsels, and godly Fathers would with one consent have abolished it? It is probable, Moses being so careful, (as it is to another purpose by them alleged,) that he would not omit to signify unto his people, even the smallest matters, that God gave him in charge, till he came to their basins, besoms, and pings about the Tabernacle: that he would have made no mention of such a weighty point, as this is pretended to be: if the Lord had ever given him commandment for the institution of it? 
Exod. 18. Numb. 2. Deut. 1. and 16. & 17.  Is it likely, Moses so oft speaking of the institution of the public courts, for justice and correction of manners amongst the jews (which he knew were but to continue until the coming of Christ): that he would have been silent, as touching the institution of this spiritual government, which should have lasted till the day of judgement, if he had received any such Commission?  
To draw therefore to an end of this point. The institution of this pretended government, cannot be showed out of the old Testament: and then by their own confessions (in effect) it may not be urged out of the new. Because they say, that Christ appointed no other form of regiment; then they thought they could have found to have been instituted by Moses. But my conclusion shall be built upon one of Vdals' demonstrative propositions: 
Demonst. 2. cap. 2.  uz. That government, whose original is unknown; hath no warrant in God's word, and is unlawful. But the original of the Geneva platform of Discipline, is unknown: therefore it hath no warrant in God's word, and is unlawful. And thus you see, that (as I said in the beginning,) the first time, that ever this feigned Genevian devise saw light (for aught I can read or judge:) was at Geneva. Whether for my part, I do remit it again, to see if they can deduce the pedigree of it, from any further Monuments of antiquity: or that else they may blot it out, of their now devised Creed, whereof you shall hear hereafter.   

CHAP. VI The seekers of the pretended Discipline are not yet agreed, what name they should give unto their hierarchical parish-meetinges.  
THings for the most part are not long in being, before they have their names. In that therefore the name of this pretended government, is so uncertain, (as now I shall show you) it argueth in my opinion, that it is but a counterfeit. The time was not long, after the creation of all kind of cattle, and of the fowls of the Heaven, and of the beasts of the field; 
Genes. 2.  but they were brought to Adam, to give them their names. And I am persuaded, the like course hath still been ever observed: that in a manner as soon as things have had their being; they have also had their names given them: or at the least they have not been long without them. Let Cartwright then first tell us here, if he will still rely upon his likelihood, mentioned in the former Chapter: What was the name of his Ecclesiastical Hierarchy before the law. But you shall find him herein as mute as a fish. Marry if you will come to the time of the law, when forsooth as Beza saith it was instituted: then both he, Beza, and diverse others will soon satisfy any man, that will not be wilful▪ What? will they show it us in the old Testament? Surely the chiefest of them have not yet done it, neither will they ever be able (as I think) to do it. And therefore they are driven to seek it in the jews Talmud, 
Annot. in Mat. 15.3.  which is, saith Beza, blasphemus liber, a blasphemous book.  
Would a man have thought that men so curious to admit of nothing that is not in the Scriptures; would have stooped so low: as to the Talmud? I cannot think that seeing Almighty God would not suffer the beasts of the earth and fowls of the air, to be without their names, past two or three days; that he could be content, that such an excellent creature, as this is pretended to be, should be without a name so many hundredth years; as from Moses' time until the jews Talmud was made. I trust no man will say that Moses was in this point unfaithful, or that the Lord bringing it unto him to know how he would call it: he obstinately refused to give it any name. Peradventure Moses a civil Magistrate, foreseeing that this regiment was to be placed in every parish or Synagogue, and that so he himself should become subject unto it; did seek to disgrace it as much as he could, and therefore left it nameless. Indeed that is an exception, which the Attorneys for it, in these days, do make in effect against such Christian Princes and magistrates, as do refuse to admit it within their dominions.  
But to come to the name which they find in the Talmud: 
T. C. Beza. Caluin.  They say it was called amongst the jews Sanedrim, a corrupt word by them used: that was degenerated from the true Greek name 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which Beza doth translate Council. A strange thing that the Hebrew tongue should be so penurious, as that it was not able to afford an Hebrew name to such a worthy regiment: or that it should be nameless, until the jews and the Grecians had such familiar intercourse, as that they either could or would vouchsafe to borrow any thing from them, which (as most men think) was not till Alexander's time, or not much before. But strange or not strange: be it as it may be. By this doctrine then of the Talmud and master Bezaes' translation: shall we term this parochial regiment, a Council, and the Governors therein, how many soever, so many Councillors? Surely this were greatly to the honour of England, and to the benefit of her majesties subjects. For whereas now they have many occasions to come to the Court to their Lordships, for the redress of many great enormities: they should have a Council table, to repair unto, in every Parish.  
But it will here be answered peradventure, that we may not call it a Council: For that our Saviour Christ (minding as they say, to translate the form of the jews ecclesiastical government, termed Sanedrim, from the law, to the Gospel) used not that name of Council, but called it ecclesia: that is the Church. Very well: any thing will content me: Howbeit for aught I know, there was no cause, why it might not have pleased our saviour Christ, if he had conceived so notable a liking of that jewish platform: but that he might, also have retained the old name, and so have made no alteration at all. The author of the book of Discipline, having, as it should seem, some such like consideration in his head, or what other I know not: and thinking scorn (as I guess) to run to the jews Talmud, for a name for this regiment: is not afraid to dissent from Caluin, Beza, his old tutor Cartwright, and a number of other his good masters here in: saying, obseruandum est, unàcum re ipsa nomen etiam a judaeis ad nos translatum esse. It is here to be observed, that together with the thing itself, 
Disc. eccles. pag. 124.  the very name also is translated unto us from the jews. And what name is that? Forsooth saith he, Nomen. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 (that is congregation, or church): saepius apud Mosen certis & delectis viris tribuitur, qui a to●a congregatione adres obeundas designarentur: is often given by Moses unto a certain number of chosen men, that were to be appointed by the whole congregation to deal in sundry affairs.  
So as by this fellows saying: Christ made no alteration at all, when he said Dic ecclesiae, tell the church: but kept even the old name of it, vz: which it had before given unto it by Moses. How blind then was Beza, Cartwright, and the rest, that they could not find this proper name of their sovereignty in all the old testament: 
Annot in Math. 16.18.  but were feign to fly to the Talmud? But will Beza, think you, take this at his hands? No I warrant you.  
For saith he: vocabulo ecclesiae significari civium conventum, nemo est qui ignoret, etc. Haebrei 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vocant. Sed postea communis loquendi consuetudo fecit, ut pro eorum caetu accipiatur, qui Christum profitentur. There is no man ignorant that the word ecclesia doth signify an assembly of Citizens. The Hebrews do call it an assembly or company met together. But afterward by custom it came to pass, that it was taken for the assembly of them that do profess Christ. Which custom (I hope it will be confessed) did begin about Christ's time: and not in Moses time. And then the disciplinarian Traverser is very well served for his sauciness, in taking upon him, to proceed further, than his said Masters had given him in commission.  
But howsoever these fellows will agree amongst themselves: me thinketh a man might be bold (by their place of Matthew) to call their parochial regiment, 
Math. 1●.  by the name of the church. For they all will confess: that Christ called it so. And then it will follow by their grounds, that every parish or church, must have a new church erected in it: which new church must have authority to command & censure the old, and so one Church must be over another. Yea but (saith Beza in effect) we are rather to follow the apostles, in this point then Christ. That which he called Church, meaning the Synedrium, that is Council: the apostles called presbyterium, 
De excom. pa. 119.  Eldership. Quod Christus ecclesiam iam mutato Synagogae vel Synedrij nomine appellarat: Paulus presbyterium nominauni. That which Christ called the Church, changing the name of synagogue or Council: Paul called Eldership. Again: quod judaei Synedrium, Christiani presbyterium teste Apostolo vocarant. That which the jews called Council: the Christians (as the Apostle witnesseth) called Eldership. And why? Beza would blush, if he could not give a reason for any thing. Idcirco fortassis, potius quam Synedrium, ne qua pateret calumniandi occasio, 
Contra Erast. fol 36.  quasi Christiani statum publicum turbare & de magistratuum authoritate ac jurisdictione quicquam ad se protrahere vellent. The Apostles peradventure called this regiment rather Eldership than Council, lest there might be given thereby some occasion of slandering: as though the christians had purposed to have troubled the public state, and to have taken to themselves some part of the Magistrates authority and jurisdiction.  
Well: and are we yet come to an issue, how we may call this form of government? Shall we term it the Eldership? No surely: if we will follow some other reform Churches, which are so oft commended unto us. Presbyterium vocare Consistorium apud nos mos est. 
De excom. pag. 110.  It is the manner and fashion with us at Geneva (saith Beza) to call the Eldership a consistory. With whom agreeth, I.B. the superintendant (as it is thought) of the Italian Church in London: saying: Although we have in our churches the same order, which the Apostles ordained: 
De polit. ciu. & eccle. pag. 170.  yet we have changed the name of Eldership, & do call it now by another name, vz: consistory. And good reason. It is so called at Geneva. The Apostles call it Eldership: but yet they dispensing with that point, do call it, as they list. Men no doubt; of a sovereign prerogative. But to proceed.  
It should seem, that as these men, have changed the name of Eldership into Consistory: so have others in some places done it into Synod. 
Sohnius To: 1. pag. 231.  Against both which sort, Bannosius in his long and tedious disciplinarian discourse, is very bold to write his mind: that it ought rather to be called Eldership: then either Synod or consistory: 
De pol. ciu. dei, etc. pa. 80  And that for two reasons: vz: first because some men do not distinguish sufficiently the assemblies of the christians, from the Synods of the jews: and secondly, because the Hierarchy of Rome, 
Ibidem.  doth call their presbyterium Eldership, consistorium a consistory.  
From all these, as I suppose, many of the French Churches: or at the least that of Heidelberge doth dissent. For thus junius, 
Ecclesiasticus lib. 2. cap. 3.  lately (a chief Ruler there) writeth. Concilium ecclesiae Senatumue appellamus: quod Paulus presbyterium: That which Paul called the Eldership, we call the council of the church or the Senate. and so the Elders there are Senators.. Which names, both of Senate, and Senators (saith Beza) Vt civilibus dignitatibus cowenientius & calumniae obnoxium: 
De excom. pag. 112.  videtur studio quodam vetus purior ecclesia in occidente repudiasse, as being proper to civil dignities and subject to slander, the old purer church in the West, doth seem of purpose, to have rejected. And Bannosius affirmeth: that the reason that moved those, where he was, to call the Eldership a consistory, was: quod nomen minus odiosum quam Senatus esset, because it was a name less odious, than the name of Senate. You have heard also before out of Beza, that the Apostles themselves refused the name of Synedrium, as being all one with Council or Senate, for the same respects: But all this notwithstanding, now, (that belike) they think themselves in some places, to have laid such sufficient foundations for the continuance of their regiment, as that it shall not be removed, (what soever the Magistrates shall conceive of it:) they show themselves in their colours, and do call it plainly a Senate: neither respecting the wisdom which themselves do ascribe unto the Apostles, nor the foresaid example of the purer West Churches.  
And indeed, although at Geneva, the name of the Consistory be most in use: yet I guess that Beza, would gladly bring it, to be changed, and called a Senate. And I do partly so think, because in his printed Book of excommunication: he hath left out the reason, why the Apostles called it not Senate but Eldership: which reason is in his written Book that Erastus confuted. Besides also, oftentimes in his notes upon the new Testament, he termeth the form of that government, by the name of Ecclesiastical Senate. And namely, where they dream it was commanded by Christ in these words. Dic Ecclesiae, tell the Church, Constat hic agi de Ecclesiastico Senatu: it is manifest, (saith he) that here Christ speaketh of the Ecclesiastical Senate. In another place also (he saith) tell the Church, that is the Eldership: 
De excom. pag. 4.6.  and here in effect, tell the Ecclesiastical Senate. So that (to my understanding) he confoundeth Eldership and Senate; making them both one. Which peradventure will bring himself within the compass of his own words against Castalion: To translate, Presbyterium, Eldership, Senatum, a Senate: doth argue a great vanity of wit, and is indeed a profane innovation.  
But to let that pass: by hook or crook, it must be a Senate, 
Fenner theol. pag. 277.  which tickleth and pleaseth some of our reformers: insomuch as in their Latin discourses of Discipline. there is little, 
Disc. Eccl. so. 124. 123.  but Ecclesiastical Senate and Senators. Christus pro more judaeorum Ecclesiam Ecclesiasticum Senatum appellavit. Christ after the custom of the jews, called the Ecclesiastical Senate the Church. Again: Ecclesiastical Senate is an assembly of Elders etc. And again: Cum hic Senatus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a Paulo appellatur: Presbyteros esse hos Senatores necesse est. Seeing this Senate is called by Paul an Eldership: it followeth of necessity, 
Learned disc. pag. 96. 85.  that the Elders must be senators. I omit some old English names, which have been given to this Minion, 
junius. pa. 82.  as Congregation, Assembly, signory etc. and some Latin names also, as the Epitome of the Church and Diaconia Presbyterorun, 
junius pa. 61.  the Deaconship of Elders: because they are now grown (as it seemeth) to be too base. 
Eccles. lib. 2. cap. 3.  Rather let us call it with junius (if I conceive his meaning) materfamilias, 
De excom. pag. 124.  the housewife of the Church in Christ's absence: or with Master Beza, Tribunal Christi, the Tribunal seat of Christ.  
But yet, for all these words: I greatly doubt it; that such honourable titles will not long be continued. For if Master Beza his interpretation of Christ's speeches, Dic Ecclesiae, doth prove to be authentical: then they must be enforced (in my opinion) to call their government by a name of no great estimation; 
Annot. Mat. 18.17.  amongst those, that profess Christ. 
Annot. Marc 5.22.  For let the place be considered, and he maketh Christ in effect to say: Tell the Church, that is, tell the Senate, Archisynagogorum, of the Archrulers of the Synagogue: who had the power and jurisdiction, that is there spoken of, in their hands. By which exposition, if Christ had been pleased to have spoken properly, without using of any figure: when he said, Tell the Church, he should have said Tell the Synagogue: and the word Church in that place must needs be so expounded. Whereby it followeth: that (if Christ's authority by Bezaes' exposition may be regarded,) they ought by theyrowne collections and interpretations, to call their several Senates, so many Synagogues. Besides: 
Annot. Mat. 10.17.  Master Beza saith, that Synedrium and Synagogue were both one in Christ's judgement: and there is nothing more reasonable in their writings, then to call their senates Synedria: which showeth, that at the least, they may aswell, by Christ's testimony, call them Synagogues if they list.  
I would not have troubled you with this tedious discourse of the several names of this pretended regiment: but that you might understand, how their tongues are divided about such a trifle, and thereby also perceive, the infancy or new birth of this fancy of theirs; in that as yet they are not agreed, how to name the Child. If it fall out, that it get the name of Senate: what an honourable style will this be: Senatus populusque Romanus, the Senate and people of Saint Giles in the Fields, and so, of all other parishes in England▪   

CHAP. VII. Of their uncertainty concerning the places where this pretended regiment should be erected.  
Master Cartwright, and all his English followers, (that I have read) do affirm it most confidently: that by the commandment of God, by the institution of Christ; by the rules of God's word; and by the practice, & commandment of the Apostles: There ought of necessity to be an Eldership in every 
a Demonst. cap. 10.12, 14. Hay any work pag. 11. T.C. Lib. 2. pag 360. T.C. Lib. 3. pa. 49.  parish: in every 
b Lib. 1. pa. 173  Congregation: 
c Lib. 174.  Church by Church: in every particular 
d ib. 2. pa. 516  Congregation: and not only in 
e Lib. 3. 45.  Cities, but in all Churches: in the 
f Lib. 3. Pag. 73  Country and uplandish towns wheresoever there is a 
g Lib. 3. pag. 46 Demon. ca 12.  Pastor: without the which Eldership, every such church; or Congregation, is to be accounted 
h Mart. junior thes. 14.  maimed, unperfect, no 
i Dem. cap. 12.  entire body: 10 
k T.C. lib. 1. pa. 176.  want the exercise of the principal offices of charity: to be destitute of no small part of the Gospel of true Religion, of Christ's government, of the pillar of truth, and of all those privileges, & profits, which are assigned by them, unto the enjoying of it.  
Hereunto, is fit to be added; what they have further written; concerning this word, Church, and how they describe their said Parish. The Church (saith Cartwright) is either taken in the Scriptures for the whole body of the Catholic, 
Lib. 2. pag. 515  church, or for one particular congregation, or for the faithful company of one house. 
T.C. Lib. 2. 356.  This one particular Congregation, 
Hay any work pag. 11.  when it hath an Eldership placed in it; they term it, the body of one particular Church, and a perfect and unmaymed body of Christ: 
Defence of ecclesiastical govern. pa. 36.  wherein the ministers of the word and the Elders are the eyes; and the Deacons, the hands: without the which members, though it may live a while (they confess), yet (say they) it so pineth and wanteth; that in the end, it will become, a dead corpses upon the ground. And for the quantity of this body the dimensions of it, or the description of such a particular Congregation or Parish, 
Lib. 2. pag. 360.  as they speak of; thus M. Cartwright squareth it out: Every competent congregation and particular body of a church, should have her parts in neighbourhood of dwellings well trussed one with another. Again, a Parish well bounded is nothing else, but a number of those families, which dwelling near together: may have a commodious resort, and be at once taught with one mouth. With these points of our English Eldership; I marvel how their associates in other Countries will be satisfied. By the Discipline in France, concluded upon by five general Synods of the reformed Churches of that Realm: It was agreed upon, that request should be made to the Princes and other of the Nobility that follow the court, to have particular Consistories in their private houses: 
Cap. 1. Sect. 11  consisting every one of a minister; and some of the honestest of their Families. Here, are then Consistories to be erected in the church according to Cartwrightes third acceptation of the word church; that is in private houses: and likewise a Parish not of many but of one family. And peradventure in time, it may so come about, as that this will be currant doctrine in England, not only for Noblemen, to have Elderships in their private houses, but for Gentlemen likewise. For now it is already groen thus far; that many of both sorts, yea some but mean gentlemen, will have their several ministers: & for coming to their parish churches, though they be hard by their doors, they account it a dishonourable matter: their parlor-seruice, and private speaking (as they term it) pleaseth them best. 
Sohn. meth. Theo. to. pag. 212.  I might here add, how D. Sohnius is bold to dissent from Cartwright: where speaking of the diverse significations of the word church, he saith Particularis etc. The particular church is divided, and hath her name agreeable to the diversity of places, that is Nations, Provinces, Towns, Parishes, Houses, or Families. For so, there is a church of one Province, of one City, of one town, of one house. And so he quoteth many places of scripture, for this his assertion.  
But to proceed, 
Danae. de eccles. cap: 10:  Danaeus, a man as well learned (for aught is yet seen) as Cartwright is: doth not think that by the institution of Christ, there must needs be an Eldership not only in every City, but in every uplandish and country town also. For he saith (if I understand him) that in the Apostles times, the ruling Elders; (of whom the Eldership is chiefly named) was used to be established in unaquaque tantum civitate, in qua erat ampla et populosa ecclesia, et magnus fidelium numerus, In every city only, where the church was populous. In which city (he further addeth) quaeque civitatis et ecclesiae pars seu paroecia suum habebat presbyterum, 
Tit 1.5 Act. 14.23  Every parish had a priest or minister, as the parishes in the country had also: oppidatim that is town by town a priest: much like to those whom we call in our times Curatores, Curates. Furthermore also: the reforming ministers of scotlan do account their platform now in practice there, to be as agreeable to the word of God, as M. Cartwrightes: and yet (as the Chronicles do report) they have but 52. Elderships in Scotland: & those placed in their chiefest cities and great towns. Unto every of which Elderships (as I am informed) 24. particular churches or parishes (for the most part) do appertain: none of them having any such particular Eldership of their own, but are ruled, controlled, and censured, by those in the said cities, or towns; whereunto they are adjoined and subject.  
In the Low countries, it is true; that every parish hath her Eldership. But what a kind of Eldership? Hear a very learned and a grave man of that country: Ruri in pagis etc. In the country villages, in some places they have but a Pastor, one Elder, and a Deacon. In Gaunt every parish, likewise had their Eldership, consisting of more or fewer as the quantity of them were: & besides those, there was a consistory for the whole city. All which particular Elderships, in the country & cities, when any matters of greater moment fell out, especially for excommunication; Ea potestas nulli particulari ecclesiae concessa est; that power or authority is granted to no particular church, sine concilio et assensu generalis consistorij in magna urbe, et in pagis et oppidulis colloquij sive classis; without the council and consent of the general consistory in cities, & great towns, & of the conference or classis in the country towns & villages. So as here we find a number of Christ's kingdoms set up: but they want their sceptre & power: without the which our men, would not give a pin for all the rest. For so they are unperfect, & maimed bodies of Christ.  
But to come to that, which is the pattern of all right church regiment: even to the Eldership of Geneva. There are in that city (as I have heard) four or five great parishes, and in the territory, belonging unto it, almost 20. and yet for the censuring and guiding of them all, they have but one Eldership according (as it seemeth) to the jewish order: there being in jerusalem but one Sanedrim, & yet many Synagogues. Of the which Genevian reformation, 
Beza de presb. pag. 102.  it may justly be affirmed (if Cartwright & his fellows with us say truly): first: that the church of Geneva hath neglected the commandment of God, the institution of Christ, the commandment and practice of the Apostles: in that there is not placed an Eldership there in every parish: & secondly: that the said church, being neither the catholic church, nor one particular parish, nor the faithful company of one family, cannot rightly have so much, as the name of the church, nor be truly termed the well squared body of Christ, with all the true dimensions and limits of it. And certainly there is here no starting hole (as far as I can discern) for the excuse of that Reformation and platform: except it may be justified, that all these four or five and twenty parishes or there abouts, are so trussed together, that they do and may all at once meet in one Congregation, & are taught with one mouth: which to affirm (besides that their practice is otherwise) will be thought I trust great boldness, unless they can find a pastor with Stentors voice, who (by report) could make as great a noise as fifty men.  
I cannot choose but put you here in mind of a point in Master Cartwright, that seemeth very strange unto me. He saith, that there were more that did externally profess Christ, 
T.C. lib. 1. Pag 49.  in the Apostles times, then there are now: insomuch as we are not now the tithe of them: that is the tenth part. Now set these things together. The Church in the Scriptures, where it signifieth not the Catholic Church, nor one private family, doth signify one particular congregation: and no more are rightly to be of one congregation, then may at once be taught by one mouth. And thereupon, will it not follow; that (if the Apostles were as wise as Master Cartwright to bound their Congregations) whereas there is mention in the Scriptures of the Church of Rome: 
Rom. 16. 1. Cor. 1. Act. 13: Act. 20.  of the Church of Corinth: of the Church of Antioch: of the Church of Ephesus, & of the Church of jerusalem; we must think there were no more christians there, in any one of those Cities; then might at one time hear one preacher? And by that account, there are more christians within the city of London, & the suburbs, the were in all those cities, & twice as many more. Which if M. Cartwright will deny to be true, he must needs confess for the credit of Scotland or of Geneva at the least, that (of all likelihood,) as divers households (by his own rule) do concur together to make one convenient parish: So diverse parishes in one city, suburbs, and territory thereof, may be united, and rightly bear the name of the church. Except we shall think, that Christ referring (as they suppose) his Apostles to the imitation of the jews church government, 
josephus.  they were so negligent workmen, as (there being at that time 400. Synagogues in that one city,) they had erected in all their times, but one congregation, christian church, or parish, answerable to one synagogue: it being lawful for them (by the square of that platform,) to have erected, if they had could, 400.  
But let this pass (as a thing impertinent) and to return to the maimed & pining Parishes at Geneva. You will say, did not Cartwright know the ecclesiastical government of that city; when he writ his books? or shall we once conceive, that he thought to condemn that regiment: which in other places he doth so greatly extol? certainly for mine own part, although I do not greatly respect what he will say that he either knoweth or thinketh: yet I suppose he will never for shame deny it, but that he misliketh that form of church regiment. For first besides the premises, being urged with Caluins' authority, who thought the church of Geneva, with all her said Parishes to make but one body of a church: 
Lib. 2. pag. 631.  his answer to that point in effect is this, Admit Caluin so thought. I am of opinion that if Caluin had not so thought, he would never have erected up such an Eldership. And if Beza, did not think so still; I judge he would alter it. Secondly also, (upon another occasion) he resembleth the order of certain reformed churches (which in this sense must be necessarily either of Scotland, 
Lib. 2. pa. 596.  Flaunders, or Geneva) unto the custom in S. Ieromes time (when Bishops besides their one only church, had certain other congregations belonging to their oversight,) etc. and in mislike thereof, saith (for part of his answer to this point, being pressed by his adversary against him), I appeal to the institution of God, and use of the purer times after the Apostles. But amongst other qualifications which he maketh; lest we should think, that where such reformations are made, as have divers parishes belonging to one Eldership, there the old Diocese and Bishops are in effect, not abrogated, but a little altered, he saith, that one in such Eldership is above the rest, 
Lib. 2. pa. 631.  but for a time, (as Caluin was chosen thereunto, every two years,) and not during his ministery. Which authority over many parishes, but for a time, although he will not plainly condemn it, in the reformed churches which he favoureth, 
Lib. 1. pag. 123  yet speaking against the order of the church of England, 
Lib. 2. pa. 622.  both he & his companions do make it a step, 
Defence of ccclesiasticall govern. pa. 80.  whereby Satan did advance the kingdom of Antichrist.  
Lastly, as hitherto you have found M. Cartwright with his friends, opposite in this matter unto Geneva and Scotland; (differing also much from the churches in the Low countries): 
Pag. 637.  so he seemeth to me, to cross himself. For in his second book he saith, that particular churches are now in steed of Synagogues, and that their Synagogues, were the same that our particular churches are. And in his third book he writeth thus, 
Lib. 3. pag. 46.  For my part I confess, that there cometh not to my mind, whereby I could precislie conclude out of the old testament, that there was an eldership amongst the jews in every of their Synagogues. If that cannot not then be showed out of Moses (who was so faithful in setting down all that was committed to his charge) and that Christ commanded no new thing, but such as Moses instituted: how hath he urged so mightily, that we must have his Elderships in every Parish? We shall see peradventure that in short time M. Cartwright will give over this hold, and betake himself to the city consistories, framing new Dioceses, to be subject unto them: as in other countries, you have heard, they are. Well, I would wish, that before their Elderships were granted unto them: they should agree together, where they ought to place them. But now, to the several parts of every Eldership.   

CHAP. 8. Of Bishops generally: of the pretended equality, of Pastors, or new parish Bishops, and how the chief impugners of Bishops begin to relent.  
IN the old testament, the high Priest, besides that he was a figure of Christ, had also under Moses, josua, the judges, and Kings (for the better ordering and government of the church,) authority and jurisdiction ecclesiastical, within that country of Canaan, under whom for the same purpose were other Priests at least 24. that were called Principes Sacerdotum, Princes of the Priests; all of them inferior to the high Priest, but superior to the rest. In the new testament, our Saviour Christ, whilst he lived on the earth, had his Apostles, and in degree under them, his 70. Disciples. After his ascension, the same inequality of the ministry of the word; continued in the Church (by all men's confession) as long (at the least) as the Apostles lived. In the Apostles times Saint Mark was Bishop of Alexandria, Saint james was Bishop of jerusalem, Timothy was Bishop of Ephesus, and Titus was Bishop of Crete: if the ancient fathers, and Ecclesiastical histories be of any credit.  
The Apostles having received the promise of the holy Ghost; after a short time dispersed themselves (by advise) into diverse regions. And there by painful preaching and labouring in the Lord's harvest: they planted no doubt very many Churches. As the number of Christians grew, and had their particular assemblies, and meetings in many Cities and countries within every one of their circuits: they placed pastors in every congregation, they ordained certain Apostolical men, to be chief assisters unto them: whom they placed, some one in this particular country, another in that, and some others in sundry Cities to have the rule and oversight under them, of the Churches there: and to redress and supply such wants as were needful. And they themselves, (after a while, and as they grew in age, and escaped the cruelty of tyrants) remained for the most part in some head City within their compass: to oversee them all, both Churches, Pastors, and Bishops or Superintendents: and to give their directions as occasions required, and as they thought it convenient.  
When any, either of these Apostolical assistants, or of the Apostles themselves, died: there were ever some worthy men chosen and appointed to succeed them in those Cities and Countries, where they had remained. For we may not idly dream, that when they died, the authority, which was given unto them, ceased: no more than we may, that the authority of Aaron, & of his natural sons expired and ended with them. Besides it is manifest by all Ecclesiastical histories: that many Churches were planted after their deaths. And furthermore, it could not be, but that some Churches, especially under those Apostles, that were soon put to death, were (when they died) in the same case that Crete was, when Titus was sent thither, and had therefore as much need of a Titus as ever Crete had. Furthermore, who can be accounted to be well in his wits, that will imagine, that Christ should ordain such an authority, but for some threescore years▪ especially the same causes continuing, why it was first instituted, that were before. Nay I may boldly say: that there was greater need for the continuance of it afterward. For the Apostles having so great power to work miracles, and by their prayers to procure from God such strange executions of his pleasure upon the contemptuous, as did fall upon Ananias and his wife, (and I doubt not but in like cases, sometimes, upon some others): their ruling and commanding authority, was not so necessary then, as it was afterwards, when that power to work miracles ceased.  
But what should I need to use many words in a matter so apparent▪ After the death of the apostles, and of their assistants: vz: the Bishops placed by them, as is mentioned, the Ecclesiastical histories, and the ancient fathers, have kept the register of their names, that succeeded sundry of them, and ruled the Churches after them, as they before had ruled them. Whereupon they were called from all antiquity: the Apostles and Apostolical men's successors. This inequality in the Ministry of the word, hath been approved and honoured by all the ancient fathers (none excepted): by all the general Councils, that ever were held in Christendom: and by all other men of learning (that ever I heard of) for many hundred years after the Apostles time: saving that Aerius the heretic, an ambitious person, growing into great rage, for that he miss of a Bishopric, which he sued for: first broached the opinion, which is now so currant amongst his Scholars: that there ought to be no difference between a Bishop and a Priest. 
Epiph.  Whereby he took upon him, to be equal with the Bishop, that prevailed in the said suit against him: & challenged to have as great authority, he being but a Priest, as the other had, being a Bishop.  
In this latter age of the world, when after a long darkness, it pleased almighty God to restore unto us, the light of his Gospel: the chief instruments that God then used, and adorned with most singular gifts, for such a mighty work, were very far from that conceit, ●and rash presumption, which afterwards possessed certain persons of Aerius humour, and yet doth boil in many of their followers breasts. It is true, that many things are to be found in their writings, which (at the first show) do make very greatly against Bishops. But diverse persons in these days, not well considering the circumstances of those times: do greatly abuse the world, in extending them further, than they meant them. It was far from their intent that those things which they had written against Popish Bishops (the enemies of the Gospel): should ever have been urged, against such Bishops as did willingly embrace it. I will acquaint you a little with the proceed of those times: and then leave this point to your wise consideration.  
When the said learned men began to seek the reformation of Religion in Germany, it is not unknown unto you, into what subjection the Pope had brought all Christian Princes and states. The Bishops as his vassals, did then wholly depend upon him. They held their bishoprics by his authority: and nothing could be done, especially in Church matters, but by the Pope and them. So as when Luther and the rest began to disclose the enormities of Popery, and desired some godly reformation of them: you may easily conceive (the Pope and his Bishops being the chief maintainers of that corruption) what little encouragement they found at their hands. It is evident in their writings, how earnestly and humbly at the first they dealt both with the Pope and with many other of the chiefest Bishops: that they would be content and pleased to reform such things as they found to be amiss in the Church. But all their endeavours to that purpose, were in vain. The Pope and his Clergy, stood too much upon their reputation. If they should have yielded, they imagined the world would have condemned them: in that they had not in time, of themselves, prevented or redressed so notable abuses. Whereupon Luther & those learned men that joined with him, were driven to fly unto the Civil magistrates, & to advertise them of their duties, proving it unto them most plentifully out of the scriptures, that in such an obstinate defection amongst the priests, it appertained unto them, (every one within their own free states and territories) to reform religion themselves: as the godly kings in the old testament had done in the like cases. And the rather to move them thereunto, they laboured by all the means they could, to make the Popish Clergy most odious unto them. They inveighed against their pride, against their superfluities, against their tyranny, and against their corruptions. After much pains taking to these and the like effects, it pleased God to move the hearts of many of the civil magistrates, to think better of their duties, & plainly to perceive, how the Pope and his Bishops had formerly abused them. The godly kings and magistrates in the scriptures, when they reform religion, were ever most careful, that the livings appointed by God for the Priests, might be thoroughly preserved. If any by abuse had been alienated: they caused them to be restored again. And so I suppose the civil magistrates, should have done in this latter age. But it hath fallen out otherwise: and all the other godly learned men in christendom, do mislike it. The persuasions to Princes that the Bishops and Abbots had too much: was very plausible. The free Cities, notwithstanding their freedom in respect of the Emperor, yet they were subject all of them unto Bishops: & were not discontented, that so good an occasion was offered unto them, to procure their greater liberty. Luther and the rest of those learned men regarding nothing, but that the light of the gospel might be restored: were content to yield much, & to bear (against their minds) with many unequal conditions. So as at the last: by their wisdom and diligence, they prevailed. God moved the hearts of divers civil magistrates: to begin a reformation. The Pope, the Bishops, and the chiefest of the Clergy impugned it, by all the means they could possibly. Whereupon, there being no other remedy, their authority employed to hinder those proceedings, was rejected: and the most of their livings (which they had in any of those territories) were seized into the hands of the civil governors there. upon these & many such like occasions, great troubles did arise. The bishops, thought themselves greatly injuried. divers great princes, took their parts: & so did the Emperor. They misliked the reformation; which was proceeded in, after that sort: the authority of Bbs. was greatly insisted upon. Insomuch as, (notwithstanding that the said learned men had offered in the beginning to the Bishops, to perform all due obedience unto them, if they would be content to reform religion) they were now again constrained, to make the same known more generally, both to the Emperor, and to all the said Princes; still offering for their parts, as much as they had done before, and that if they would but cease, to impose upon them their intolerable burdens, of single life: of men's unlawful and wicked traditions, (which they did further specify): and to forbid them to do those things which God commanded, they should do: that then, they would with all their hearts most willingly yield unto their Episcopal jurisdiction, and to the restoring of the same, where it had been abolished. Vouchsafe (I pray you) to hear their own testimonies, to this purpose. You shall thereby well perceive, that if, they were now alive in England, and should find their names so used as they are, against the government of our Bishops: they would take it in very ill part, and be hearty sorry for it. Thus the authors of the Augustane confession, and all the learned men that have subscribed thereunto, (in which number Caluin is comprehended,) have professed touching this matter.  
The Bishops might easily retain the obedience due unto them: 
●●sto. conf. August. per Chytr: p. 109  if they urged us not to keep those traditions, which we cannot keep with a good Conscience. They impose a single life, and will receive none that will not swear, never to teach the pure doctrine of the Gospel.  

Apol. conf. Augu. Ibi. 363  Again we have oft protested, that we do greatly approve the Ecclesiastical policy and degrees in the Church, & as much as lieth in us, do desire to conserve them. We do not mislike the authority of Bishops: so that they would not compel us to do against God's commandment. Furthermore; 
Apol. conf. August. per Pap. pag. 137.  we do here protest, and we would have it so recorded, that we would willingly preserve the Ecclesiastical and Canonical policy: if the Bishops would cease to tyrannize over our Churches. This our mind or desire, shall excuse us with all posterity: both before God and all nations, that it may not be imputed unto us, that the authority of Bishops is overthrown by us.  
Besides: 
Ibid. pa 305.  I would to God (saith Melanchthon) I would to God, it lay in me to restore the government of Bishops. For I see what a manner of Church we shall have: the Ecclesiastical policy being dissolved. Video postea multo intolerabiliorem futuram tyrannidem, quàm antea unquam fuit: I do see that hereafter will grow up a greater tyranny in the Church, than ever there was before.  
Moreover: 
Erasmus Ebnerus. Hier. Ebnero ibid. pag. 310.  mira dissipatio erit Ecclesiarum ad posteritatem etc. There will be a wonderful confusion of Churches left to our posterity: except they may now be joined together again, and have certain Bishops who may be enforced to govern the church, and look unto them more diligently then in times past they have been looked unto. Again: by what right or law may we dissolve the Ecclesiastical policy: 
Melan. to Camerarius in Hist. con. August. per Chytr. p. 389.  if the Bishops will grant us that, that in reason they ought to grant▪ Et ut liceat, certe non expedit. And if it were lawful for us so to do, yet surely it were not expedient. Luther was ever of this opinion: whom many for no other cause I see do love, but for that they think they have cast off their Bishops by means of him, and have obtained a liberty, minimè utilem ad posteritatem, which will not be profitable for our posterity. For tell me what estate will the Churches be in hereafter: if all the old orders be abolished, and that there be no certain rulers ordained?  
To the same effect also saith George Prince Anhalt, Earl of Ascaine Lord of Sewest and Brewburge: utinam etc. I would to God that those which carry the names and titles of Bishops, 
Conciones Geor Princ. Anhalt. fo. 61  would show themselves to be Bishops in deed. I wish they would teach nothing that is disagreeable to the Gospel, but rule their Churches thereby. O quam libenter, etc. Oh how willingly, and with what joy of heart would we receive them for our Bishops, reverence them, obey them, and yield unto them their jurisdiction and ordination etc. Id quod nos semper, & Dominus Lutherus etiam &c: which we always and Master Luther both in words and in his writings very often have professed.  
And Caluin himself writing to Cardinal Sadolet, concerning the course that had been held at Geneva, (as touching the reformation of Religion and in excuse thereof against his challenge) doth show himself to be of the same mind he was of, when he subscribed to the said confession of Augusta: professing that for his part he could have been well content, that the Bishop there should have kept his authority and jurisdiction still, so that he would have yielded to the banishment of Popery. For thus he writeth. 
Cal. to Sadol.  Talem nobis Hierarchiam si exhibeant etc. If they bring unto us such an Hierarchy, or Priestly government, wherein the Bishops shall so rule, as that they refuse not to submit themselves to Christ, that they so depend upon him as their only head, and be content to refer themselves to him: in which priestly government, let them so keep brotherly society amongst themselves, that they be knit together by no other rule then by the truth: then surely if there shall be any, that shall not submit themselves to that Hierarchy or Priestly government reverently, and with the greatest obedience that may be: I confess there is no kind of Anathema or curse, or casting to the devil, whereof they are not worthy.  
And again in the same Epistle, he useth these words following: tending to the great commendation of the authority of Bishops. Statue quaeso, etc. Set before your eyes (I pray you) the ancient face of the church, as it was amongst the Grecians in Chrys. and Basils' times: and as it was amongst the Latinists, when Cyprian, Ambrose and Augustine lived: and then behold the ruins of that face, as now they are retained in the Church of Rome. And there will appear as great difference between them, as the Prophets describe unto us, between the excellent estate of the Church that flourished under David and Solomon, and that Church which in Zedechia and joachims' dates was fallen into all kind of superstition, and had defiled altogether the purity of the worship of God.  
This Epistle was written by Caluin to the Cardinal 1539. at such time as being removed from Geneva, he remained at Strasburgh: where having great acquaintance with Melanchthon, 
Beza in vi● Caluin.  Bucer, and diverse other learned men, he carried himself in such sort, as was greatly to their like. Insomuch as whilst he remained at Strasburgh, 
Bucerusinter Epist. Calu. 27. and 28.  the Colloquies at Worms and Ratisbone, being appointed by the Emperor for the compounding of controversies in Religion: the learned men that were sent thither, for the Protestants, reckonned Caluin a meet man to take thither with them. Which I thought good to observe, because hereby it will further appear: what mind and judgement Caluin still carried concerning Bishops; so as they would admit the reformation of Religion: contrary to Cartwrights' shameless assertion, 
T.C. l. 1. p. 11●  that Caluin would have shaken at the name of an Archbishop: and have trembled at the office of a Bishop. For in the articles agreed upon at that time by the said learned men, (Caluin being amongst them) for a reconciliation in the behalf of the Protestants: thus they declared their judgements of this matter. 
Arti. protest. cap de unit. Ecclesiae.  Vt omnia ordine fierent in Ecclesia etc. That all things might be done orderly in the Church according to S. Paul's rule etc. For the aviding of Schisms, there was a profitable ordination, that a Bishop should be chosen out of many Priests: who should rule the Church by teaching the Gospel, and by retaining the Discipline: & qui praeesset ipsis Presbyteris, and who should govern the Priests themselves. Afterward also there were degrees made of Archbishops, & above them of patriarchs, etc. These ordinations (if those that govern do their duty) as preach, oversee the doctrine and manners of their Churches, correct errors and vice, practise Ecclesiastical censures, etc. 
Resp. protest.  are profitable to preserve the unity of the Church. And again in their additions to the said Articles. As concerning ordination, we especially approve the ancient custom of the Church: that those, that are to be ordained, should first be tried, instructed, and upon the public testimony of some godly and learned men, etc. admitted into the Ministry. This difficult and necessary charge for the Church, it is to be wished (reformation being made) that the Bishops would take upon them. And we hear that our learned men have expressly so yielded ordination unto those Bishops, si praecedat reformatio, if first there may be a reformation. Likewise also in another treatise that was then made by Master Bucer, with the advise of the said learned men, 
De refor. adver. Eccles. p. 95.  and offered to the Emperor: it is thus written. Annitendum est etc. We must endeavour, that that form and distribution of Ecclesiastical government, which the Cannons do prescribe to Bishops and metropolitans, be restored and kept. And after in the same Treatise. Concerning names and titles, and all those things, wherewithal that external power and dignity ought to be adorned and established, and the lawful obedience of such as be under them confirmed: it will easily be agreed upon.  
Much more passed in those Colloquies and treatises to this purpose: Caluin himself as it hath been said being then present, and in company which those learned men. And the reasons that moved them so to offer, agree, and protest at that time in this behalf, I think (besides the former reasons mentioned) were these, and such like: which Bucer (a principal man then amongst them) hath elsewhere set down: When speaking of Bishops and metropolitans and of their authority over the Churches, and ministers within their Diocese and Provinces, he saith thus. Hoc consentiebat legi Christ's, 
Bucer de vit. & usu minist. pag. 565  fiebatque ex iure corporis Christi. This was agreeable to the law of Christ, and was done by the authority of the body of Christ. And in another place. 
Buc. de regu. Christi pa. 67  I am ex perpetua etc. Now by the perpetual obsexuation of all Churches even from the Apostles times, we do see: that it seemed good to the holy Ghost, that amongst Priests to whom the procuration of Churches, was chief committed, there should be one, that should have the care or charge of diverse Churches, and the whole Ministry committed unto him: and by reason of that charge he was above the rest, and therefore the name of Bishop was attributed peculiarly unto these chief rulers of Churches. Nay he goeth further and saith: that in the Apostles times one of the Priests or Pastors was chosen and ordained to be the Captain and Prelate over the rest: 
Buc. de cura ●ura●. p. 251.  who went before the rest, and had the cure of Souls, and the administration of the Episcopal office, especially in the highest degree. And this he proveth by the example of S. james Act 15. & after concludeth in this sort. The like ordination hath been perpetually observed in other Churches likewise as far as we may learn out of all the Ecclesiastical histories, and the most ancient Fathers, as Tertullian, Cyprian, Irenaeus, Eusebius and others.  
Hereby than it may appear unto you, what was thought of Bishops & of their authority by the learned men of those times: who sought as narrowly into that calling, what was lawful, and what was unlawful, and were aswell able to judge thereof: (I may speak it I trust without offence) as either Carwright or all his complices. There were some busy bodies indeed a little before or about the time of the Colloquies mentioned, who were very angry with the said learned men, & especially with Melanchthon, for yielding so much concerning Bishops. Of whom he himself writeth in this sort. 
Melan. to Camerar. hist, conf. August. per Chytr. pa. 304.  Hoc malè habet scilicet quosdam immoderatiores etc. This forsooth doth anger some immoder at men: that the jurisdiction and policy Ecclesiastical is restored: interpreting the same to be the restitution of the Romish sovereignty. And thus also to Luther: 
Mel. to Luth. Ibid. pa. 306  you do not believe into what hatred I am grown with them of Noricum, and with certain others: for the restitution of jurisdiction unto Bishops. Ita de regno suo, non de evangelio dimicant socij nostri. Our fellows do so fight for their own kingdom, and not for the Gospel. Camerarius to the same purpose in like manner maketh this report. 
Camer. in vit. Philip.  Audivi quosdam etc. I have heard some accuse Philip in that respect, inhumanissimè, most barbarously, when one of them said: that if he had been hired with a great sum of money by the Roman faction to have defended their state, he could not (in his opinion) have dealt more effectually for them, than he did in maintaining of Bishops: and that Philip was not to be accounted a Patron of his own part, but of his adversaries, and that a chief and a singular Patron etc. These things & divers other more slanderous they uttered without shame: quorum magnopere postea paenituit & puduit plaerosque: Whereof many afterwards repent and were ashamed of them. But notwithstanding all these and such like slanderous harebrains; the graver sort, the best learned, the godliest, and the wisest men amongst the Protestants, that then lived: did follow and proceed as Philip had begun, even accordingly as before I have mentioned.  
And since that time (for any thing I can find to the contrary) although the bishops (still cleaving to the Pope, and opposing themselves against all kind of reformation, further than it pleased them): were thereupon even of necessity rejected (as before I have signified): yet as soon as the said learned men grew to be able to establish their churches, in any reasonable manner, they ordained amongst themselves the very same offices in effect, throughout the most of the reformed Churches in Germany, 
observat.  changing only the old Greek names (as Zanchius reporteth) of Archbishops and Bishops into new and worse Latin names of superintendentes, and general superintendentes, Erneste the Duke of Brunswick, 
Ernest. Regius in vit. Vrbani Rhegij.  presently after the assembly of Augusta, procured Vrbanus Regius to go home with him: & ecclesiarum in toto Ducatu Episcoparum ipsius gubernationi permisit: and committed unto his government the Bishopric, 
Geor Anhalt. pag. 611.  or superintendency of all the Churches within his Dukedom One Sydonius being thrust (as it seemeth) from the Bishopric of Mersenburge, (as cleaving wholly to Popery), was afterwards (upon his leaving of the Pope, and upon promise made to maintain the reformation of religion, made in his absence, restored to his bishopric. 
Geor Anhalt. pag. 60.  And after him succeeded (as I take it in that bishopric) George the Prince Anhalt before mentioned: being chosen thereunto as he saith himself, universo capitali consensu, by the consent of the whole chapter. He had been brought up in learning, and was at the time of the said election, 
In operib. Geor Anhal●. pag. 630.  a Priest or Cannon in the Cathedral Church of Mersenburge. Of whom being bishop Henricus Stenius saith: règebat ecclesias in Mersenburgensi diocaesi: he ruled the Churches in the diocese of Mersenburge. And again: praesuit ecclesijs universae ditionis Mysorum: he governed the Churches of all the dominion of Mysia.  
Agreeable aswell to these examples, as to the saying of Zanchius before specified, is that which ja: Haerbrandus a very learned man, and in his time Divinity reader of Tubinge, 
ja. Haerb. loc. come. pa. 699.  writeth in his common places: Debent gradus esse, etc. There aught to be degrees amongst Ministers, etc. as with us in the Duchy of Wirtenberge, there are subdeacons, Deacons, Pastors, special superintendentes, and over them general superintendentes. And in another place the same Haerbrand showing his judgement generally: 
Loco de eccl. pag. 699.  Saluberrimum esset, etc. It were a most profitable order for the welfare of the Church: if every particular province had her Bishops, and the Bishops their Archbishop. And jacobus Andreas, he is much of the same opinion (as certain Ministers of Heidelberge do report) vz: 
Epist. contr. minist. Heidel. pag. 8.  where he saith: that it is a difficult matter to defend the peaceable estate of Churches except there be some chief ruler and Bishop amongst them, to whom rerum summa deferatur, the full ordering of matters, may be referred.  
To this purpose in like sort, Osiander writeth: even as though he had spoken of the Church of England. 
Loc. come. cap. 10:  Although in the Primitive church (when she flourished with miracles) there were divers degrees and orders of Ministers: some Apostles: some Prophets, some Evangelists, and some Pastors and Doctors: yet as now the state of the Church is, the Ministers may be divided into three orders or degrees: vz: Deacons, Pastors, and Superintendentes, etc. To the Pastor's particular Churches are committed: Nec dubitatur, etc. and it is not doubted, but that every one of them, may rule the Church committed unto him, sine collegae concilio, without the Council of any fellow. Those pastors we call superintendents, who are so set over other pastors; that they may visit the state of their Churches, and punish both the Pastors and the people, if any thing be done amiss: or if any thing fall out that they cannot correct, than they refer it unto a higher court, consisting of divines and politic men, who by the civil Magistrates authority, or approbation, do amend such defects, etc.  
Hemingius also affirmeth: 
just. deguber. eccle.  that there are dispares dignitatis gradus in the ministry, & that partly by the law of Cod, & partly by the approbation of the Church: that as Christ ascending into heaven: gave gifts unto men: Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, doctors, and pastors: so he gave to the Church authority for edification: that the Church by virtue of that power ordained ministers for her profit: that the purer churches following the Apostles times, ordained some Patriarches, some Bishops, etc. some Pastors, and some Catechists, etc. That the reformed Churches, have their Bishops, doctor's, Pastors, and under them chaplains (we call them curates, as I think): That the Churches in Denmark, do acknowledge degrees of dignity amongst Ministers: that they judge it meet, that other Ministers should obey their Bishops in allthings which tend to the edification of the church according to the word of God, & the profitable government of the Church: and that they judge Bbs. to have authority over other Ministers of the church, ius non despoticum, sed patrium. jeremia Hombergus a worthy man in the Churches of God about Styria, Carinthia, and Carniola; but now removed thence through the persecution, which the jesuits have kindled in those parts: affirmeth in his common places of divinity, reviewed & allowed at Ratisbone with very direct terms: 
De ministerio  that God himself hath appointed degrees of ministers in the church, even amongst those which have a mediate calling: ut concordia inter ministros conseruetur, etc. that concord amongst ministers might be preserved, & the works of their ministry performed more easily, and more decently. And after he hath specified the common duties both of Bishops and ministers: he setteth down those, which he thinketh are peculiar to Bishops, and to be executed by them, vz: excommunication, ordination, and confirmation.  
And with him agreeth the Divinity reader at Lavinge, Phill. Haylbronner: 
De minister. eccle.  writing upon the first Epistle of S. Paul to Timothy. Where he showeth that the Apostle appointed Timothy to be Bishop of Ephesus: that accordingly, there are and aught to be degrees and orders of ministers of the Church: & having described the common duties likewise of all ministers generally, he saith thus. Episcopus, etc. Besides the said common offices, to Bishops was commended the public oversight and government: so as it belonged to them to appoint fit ministers for the churches near them: also to hear the accusations and complaints which are made against the Pastors of their churches, and to decide them, etc. Sic enim Paulus scribit Timotheo Ephesorum Episcopo: for so Paul writeth to the Bishop of Ephesus: lay thy hands rashly upon no man, and against a Priest admit not an accusation, etc.  
Of the same judgement in like sort is Egidius Hunius, the divinity professor, at Marpurge, in his commentary upon S. Paul's Epistle to Titus. He affirmeth: that, the Apostle appointed Titus, the general superintendant for the government over the Churches of that large and noble Island of Crete: that his duty was to ordain Pastors in every parish, and likewise to make Bishops: that the Bishop or superintendant hath his diocese, the Pastor his parish or church: as Paul commanded Titus to place priests in every parish: That thereby, it appeareth God doth require, that there should be orders and degrees amongst Ministers, ut alij praesint, alij subsint: that some may rule, and some obey: that this order is not newly devised, but received in the church from the Apostles times: and that God himself made a distinction between Ministers, and appointed degrees, according to that he gave some Apostles, some Prophets, some Evangelists, some Pastors, and Doctors, for the repairing of the Saints for the work and the ministery, and for the edification of the body of Christ. And again, upon these words: A Bishop must be unreprovable etc. he meeteth with the common objection, for the equality of Ministers, because every Minister is called a bishop sometimes in the Scriptures: and saith: that the word Bishop notwithstanding it be oftentimes used by S. Paul for every pastor of the church of God: who have a kind of oversight over their several charges, and so may suo modo after a sort be called Superintendents and Bishops etc. yet here it signifieth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Primarios illos ecclesiarum pastors etc. Those chief pastors to whom the oversight of the lives and manners of the other ministers is committed, whom according to the force of the Greek appellation, we in these days do call Superintendents.  
Hitherto then, it appeareth (as I take it) what is both the practice of the reformed Churches in Germany, and the judgement also of the chief learned men there, since Melanchthon & Bucers' times: concerning Bishops or Superintendents, with their pre-eminence, charge, and authority. Some there are, indeed, beyond the seas, who (following the immoderate, proud, and slanderous humour that Melanchthon & Camerarius spoke of before) have uttered their great mislike of the German Superintendents; and that with less modesty a great deal, then doth well become them. In reproof of one of them, Gerlachius a learned man of Tubing writeth in this sort. 
Ger. in hyperas. Dan. p. 30.  Licet titulos ordinum etc. Although thou beholdest with disdain (as it were from above) the titles of orders; after the fashion of hypocrites, and of the anabaptists: yet with a vain persuasion of knowledge & foolish arrogancy, whereby thou contemnest our countrymen in respect of thyself, and dost challenge especial knowledge to thee and thy fellows only: Plus turges quàm omnes Doctores et Superintendentes nostri: Thou swellest more with pride than all our Doctors, and Superintendents. And what cometh into thy mind that thou shouldest cavil at the degrees of ministers, as though it were not lawful to ordain such degrees for the building and government of the Church? Did not God himself in the old Testament appoint a chief Bishop, Priests, and levites? And in the new Testament gave he not some Apostles, some Prophets, some Evangelists, and some Pastors, and Doctors? Had not the primitive church accordingly: Bishops, Priests, and Deacons? And again, a little after in the same book: whilst thou a proud man girdest so often at the title of superintendant: 
jud. Numb: 16.  I affirm that thou reprehendest the Apostle Paul himself, who hath given this name to a distinct order of ministers of the church. And our Ancestors following this Apostle have thought it meet, that for the edifying of the church, and for order's sake; there should be certain Superintendentes, that is, overseers not only of the flock, but of the nisters in like manner.  
Thus far Gerlachius: who if he were in England & knew into what an extremity the like persons, are grown unto in the same case amongst us: It would peradventure move him. For now there is no remedy, with our ministers of that consort: but they must all be equal. They cannot endure it, (no the meanest of them) to have any of their own coat, their Superior. They are fallen into the contradiction of Chors, and do tell both Moses and Aaron, that they take to much upon them. All pastors (say they) are and aught to be of equal authority in their several Parishes, and no one to have power over another. Every parish Priest with them; must be a Bishop: and have as full jurisdiction in his Parochial diocese, as it is lawful for any Bishop in the world either to have or to execute. For order's sake they are content, that in their Classical, provincial, or Nationall assemblies, some one minister be chosen from amongst themselves: to be the moderator for the propounding of matters & gathering of voices etc. But his office & pre-eminence, is to continue no longer, then whilst those assemblies last. Otherwise or for any further authority either of Bishops, or Archbishops (whether they have abolished popery, reformed religion, maintained the gospel, abandoned superstition, or whatsoever they have done, or yielded unto,) they hold it altogether unlawful: & do rail against them all, & against their callings, and against all that defend them, and that with more than heathenish scurrility.  
Cartwright is the chief man, 
T C. lib. 2. pag. 438.  that began this course in England; and you shall see how prettily his scholars follow him. 
T. C. lib. 2. pag. 485.  Archbishops & Bishops (saith he) are new ministries, 
T. B. lib. 1 p. 82 & 85.  never ordained by God. The first step to this kind of Bishopric began at Alexandria, and not at Zion. The name and office of an Archbishop is unlawful, his function is of the earth, and so can do no good but much harm in the church: he is a knob or some lump of flesh: 
Dem. mart. etc.  which being no member of the body doth burden it and disgrace it. Whereupon forth come his scholars crying out amain: 
Hay any work pag. 14.15.20. 21.28.  that Archbishops & Bishops are superfluous members of the body of Christ: and that they maim and deform his body: 
Udall dial. C. ● D. 2.  making it by that means a monster. 
Hay any work Ma. thes. 49.34  That they are unlawful, false, & bastardly governors of the church. That they are the ordinances of the Devil: That they are in respect of their places; enemies of God: that they are petye Popes, 
mart, sen. B. 4. C. 1,.  petty Antichristes, Bishops of the Devil, and incarnate Devils: that none ever defended this government of our Bishops, but Papists and such as were infected with Popish errors. That the Laws that maintain the Archbishops and Bishops are no more to be accounted of, than the Laws that maintain Steves: and that the true church of God ought to have no more to do with them, and their Synagogues, then with the Synagogue of Satan.  
All which Consistorian and modest assertions, aswell for the equality of Ministers, as against the calling of Bishops being joined together: are wholly opposite to all that, which hitherto I have written touching this matter. Even as though they should have cast down their gauntlets & proclaimed an utter defiance, to all the Churches, that ever were established in the world, for much above three thousand years: the Churches whilst the law continued; the churches in Christ's time; the Churches in his Apostles times; the Churches throughout all christendom for a thousand & five hundred years: against all the general Counsels: all the ancient fathers: & all ecclesiastical histories: against all the chief reformers of religion in this latter age: against all the learned men's judgements before mentioned, and against all the reformed churches wheresoever in christedome, that either have BB. or Superintedents. God forgive them this great sin of pride & presumption: & deliver them out of the number of those, 
2. pet 2: jude.  of who it is said, that their mouths speak proud things, that they despise government: that they stand in their own coceit: that they fear not to speak evil of them that are in dignity & authority, & likewise of those things that they know not: that they use swelling words of vanity; that they beguile unstable souls; that they separate themselves from other, and that they have not the spirit.  
It will not surely serve their turns one day: to say that (in such their wilful opposing of themselves, as it were, against heaven, & in such their outrageous railing and bitterness, against so holy a calling), they followed certain of their brethren the ministers in Scotland, or in the low countries, or in Geneva. For in this vain, they have exceeded them all, especially them of the two countries last mentioned. Master Caluin although after his restitution to Geneva, he might be thought to have had some harder opinion of bishops than he had before: yet if you compare him with these fellows, you would think him an especial favourer and defender of them. He could well enough endure it● to use these honourable terms to Archbishop Cranmer. Illustrissime domine: clarissime presul et mihi ex animo reverend: commending his authority, his wisdom, and his integrity, & desiring him to put them all in practice, for the benefit of the Church. And in his letter to the King of Polonia he showeth himself to be far from Cartwrights' mind, uz. that the Pope's authority is more necessary over all Churches; then the authority of an Archbishopp over a province, and that neither of them can discharge so great an office. For there, writing against the pope, he propoundeth to the kings consideration, the ancient form of church-government by Archbishops: terming it a moderate honour: (meaning thereby) as I take it (the pre-eminence and authority which Archbishops then had,) as being limited for the execution of it, within the compass of man's power: whereas the Pope's pretended authority, being of so large an extent as comprehending the whole world, could not possibly be executed by any man living.  
But yet I am short of M. Caluins' moderation in this matter: for discoursing of the state of the ancient churches, (before the time of popery): of Bishops, Archbishops, and patriarchs, their authority and superiority in their circuits, dioceses and provinces: he useth these modest speeches. 
Cal: Instit: lib. 4. Cap: 4.  Although the Bishops of those times, did set forth many canons, wherein they might be thought to express more than is expressed in the scriptures, yet they framed their whole government according to the only rule of god's word, with that caution: ut facilè videas, nihil fere hac part habuisse a verbo Dei alienum. that you may easily see there was nothing almost, in this behalf disagreeing from the word of God. If there may be found any imperfection in the orders which they made: yet they endeavoured with a sincere study, to keep the institution of God: from the which, 
ibid. sect. 2.  none multum aberrarunt, they swerved not much. And a little after: the elders that were ministers of the word, did choose one from amongst themselves in every City; unto whom especially they gave the title of Bishop, Ne ex aequalitate ut fieri solet dissidia nascerentur: lest by equality, as it usually happeneth, dissensions should arise. As touching the beginning of this order: he agreeth with S. Jerome, that it hath continued in the Church since S. 
ibid. sect. 4.  Marks time. And (saith he) that every province had her Archbishop: that also in the Nicene Council, patriarchs were appointed, who were in order and degree above Archbishops: Id ad disciplinae conseruationem pertinebat; It did pertain to the preservation of discipline. But his conclusion is yet more full, and differeth but a little (if it differ at all) from that which the learneder sort in England, do now maintain with all antiquity. For speaking of the form of government so framed (as is said) in the council of Nice: he useth these words: 
ibid. sect. 4.  Si rem intuemur, reperiemus veteres Episcopos non aliam regendae ecclesiae formam voluisse fingere, ab ea quam Deus verbo suo praescripsit: if we look to the form of government itself, we shall finds that the ancient Bishops, would not devise another form of churchregiment, differing from that which God hath prescribed in his word.  
And thus you may perceive, what great difference there is betwixt our men's spirits, and Master Caluins; their outrage, and his modesty: their pride, and his humility: their rashness, ignorance, and giddiness, and his sobriety, learning, and judgement. The form of ecclesiastical government agreed upon in the council of Nice: differeth not from that which God hath prescribed: and who then but men that have shameless foreheads, dare so encounter it? But it may peradventure be said: that, howsoever Caluin did carry himself in this cause, yet Beza is of an other opinion.  
Indeed he is so: but it turneth more & more, daily to his own discredit. He succeeded Master Caluin in place; but neither in his learning nor in all his virtues. And I do attribute it unto his want of judgement: that he hath showed himself such a busy body, where he had nothing to do. It is chief he, that hath set the pretended reformers, in this whole land, so much a gogge against Bishops: by his secret letters, and other disordered writings of encouragement unto them. And yet (forsooth) he can write to other men; and pretend the quite contrary. Consider the process following: and then, if I be too blame thus to write of him, 
Epist. 2.  tell me of it.  
In one of his epistles dated 1570. he affirmeth that Archbishops & Primates are a shadow and image of the policy of Room: that they are petty tyrants in respect of the Pope: and that although the names be never so ancient, yet it ought to have been inquired, whether it were lawful to bring them into the church etc. It had been a marvelous beneficial matter to all posterity: that Beza had been the commander at Geneva in the times of the Primitive church, that so the learend & grave fathers of those ages might have inquired this point of him & known his pleasure.  
In the year 1572. it seemed good unto him, (as it hath been said before) to write his letter into this Island, to Knox the reformer in Scotland: at what time the Bishops there had received the Gospel (at the least many of them as I think) though it would not serve their turn to keep them in their places. In which letter amongst many other good consistorian documents, he writeth thus. 
Epist. 79.  But I would have you, and the other brethren to remember that which is before your eyes: as Bishops brought forth the Papacy, so false or counter set Bishops, the relics of Popery, will bring in Epicurism. They that desire the churches good, let them take heed of this pestilence. And seeing you have put that plague in Scotland to flight: quaeso etc. I heartily pray you that you never suffer it again under any pretence or colour of keeping of unity: which pretence deceived the ancient fathers, even many of the best of them.  
But least any man should imagine, that I do Beza injury in applying his words, to the purpose for the which I bring them: and, that he writ not thus, against such Bishops as did embrace and maintain the true religion, which we all profess; but against Popish Bishops: Cartwright himself will clear both me and Bezaes' meaning. For he (a man of the same spirit) hath brought both those places, and urged them, for Bezaes' judgement against our Bishops now in England. Beza (saith he) is so far from allowing Archbishops, that our kind of Bishops he calleth counterfeit Bishops, relics of Popery, such as will bring in Epicurism: and so he proceedeth on with the rest of Bezaes' words, to Knox as before they are set down. But I shall not needed to labour much upon this point. Beza will himself vouch safe (you shall see) to deliver his mind, as plainly as one would wish.  
In his treatise that he writ into Scotland, about the year 1579. of three sorts of Bishops mentioned in the third Chapter: uz. the Bishops of God, of man, and of the devil: He writeth thus (by no good direction, I am sure) of that ancient, and the most godly Council, that ever was held since the Apostles times, uz. the honourable council of Nice. The Nicene Council pretending ancient custom, confirmed the patriarchship, and made a way for the horrible papacy of Rome, (sliding on), and underlaid the seat for the harlot that sitteth upon seven hills. And afterward, where M. Caluin spoke, as you have heard, of the form of Church government, which was then concluded upon, that it differed not from that which God had prescribed: Beza is bold (if Field his translator have dealt well with him) to call it a devilish oligarchy, making the fathers of the said Council, to be the devisers, or at least, the advancers of the Bishops of the devil. Under which member of his division, he bringeth all the Bishops in Europe (excepting his own parochial Bishops) notwithstanding any reformation of religion whatsoever. And therefore adviseth all godly Princes, that at once they abolish them.  
Neither is he in effectanie thing more gracious or bountiful to his second sort of Bishops, the Bishops of men. But before you hear his censure of them, you shall understand how he describeth such a kind of Bishop. The Bishop of man (saith he) brought into the Church by the alone wisdom of man, besides the express word of God, is a certain power to one certain pastor, above his other fellows, yet limited with certain orders, or rules provided against tyranny. They which did bear this office of Bishop, are called Bishops in regard of their fellow Elders, and the whole Clergy, as watchmen set over the Clergy. And I marvel why the ministers after the Apostles time should not have as great need of such watchmen, as they had when the Apostles themselves lived: who were then their watchmen by all their confessions.  
But now let us see what Beza will do with these kind of Bishops. Surely by his advise, down they must as well as the former, or to use his translators phrase, they must be chased away. And his chief reasons are these, First, because that unless this root also be plucked up, it will come to pass, that the same fruit will sprout and bud forth again: Secondly, for that Christ (as he falsely supposeth) hath shut this superiority out of the church: And thirdly, because (as he saith) Where the remnants of this government by a few, are not clean taken away, the word of the Lord is openly hindered. He meaneth (I think) his counterfeit platform of discipline: for the inordinate urging whereof, some few disordered persons have been put to silence. But what hath he to do with that? You see then the man's boldness, and with what presumption he advanceth himself against all the learned Fathers; against all the general Counsels; against all the flourishing Churches, that have been in the world since Christ's time; against the judgements of all the chief learned men (almost) of ourage: & (that which is most with him) even against the judgement of his superior master Caluin; and you see also the pit and smoke, from whence the Locusts amongst us of late years came, that with their venomous libels and railing discourses, have infected the hearts of many good men, with a dislike of the holy calling of our Bishops. That some have been mislead heretofore, with the violent stream of this faction, I wonder not But for mine own part, I shall little pity any of them hereafter, if when they shall see these things, they will notwithstanding yield over themselves to be seduced by so gross, so palpable, & so childish illusions: but especially if they shall hear Beza himself begin to alter his mind, and to sing a new song.  
I will not affirm much for his alteration: but when he hath opened himself a little further unto you, account of him as God shall move your hearts. Surely he will not prove a man (in my opinion) for any to build their faith upon. In his confessions, he once affirmed, that the constitutions of the ancient fathers concerning Bishops, 
Beza Conf. ●●. ●  metrapolitans, and patriarchs, their seats, limits, and authority, were made optimo zelo, with the best zeal. It was then, I trust, a zeal joined with knowledge. And having both such zeal and such knowledge, did they agree in the Council of Nice upon such a devilish oligarchy?  
Of late years he hath written two or three Letters, to the now Lord Archbishop of Canterbury: with an other manner of style, than (I suppose) he would have done, if he had thought him to have been the Bishop of the devil. 
Beza & Sadeel to the L. Arch. 15. Sept. 1589.  For thus he endorsed them. Reverendissimo viro, et in Christo patri, Domino Archiepiscopo Caentuariensi, serenissimae Reginae Conciliario, et totius Angliae primati. To the most reverend man & father in Christ, the Lord Archbishop of Canterbury, Councillor to the Queen's majesty, and primate of all England. And one of them was thus subscribed. Amplitudini tuae addictissimi in Christo, Theodorus Beza, A. Sadeel, nomine totius nostri caetus, nec non totius Ecclesiae Genevensis. Most addicted to your greatness Th. B.A.S. in the name of our assembly, and also of the whole Church of Geneva. But it is of especial consideration, that he writeth in the other Letter.  
It should seem, that the said now Lord Archbishop of Canterbury hath written somewhat unto Beza, as concerning his over-busying of himself about our Church, without any lawful commission. And in defence of himself he answereth thus. Caeterum reverend mi Domine, 
Beza to the L. Arch. of Cant. 8. Mert. 691.  But my reverend Lord, in that you thought it meet to move us in your Letters, that we should think well of that kingdom, and likewise of your Church, and the government thereof; surely it troubled both me and Sadeel in some sort, as being greatly afraid lest any sinister rumours are brought to you of us, or lest those things, which we have written of Ecclesiastical policy, properly against that Antichristian tyranny as necessity required, are taken by some in that sense, as if ever we had meant to compel to our order those churches that think otherwise then we do of it, and the governors of them, agreeing else with us in the truth of doctrine agreeable to the word of God, and that except they followed our order, we accounted otherwise of them then their godliness and dignity, and mutual brotherhood doth require, etc. far be this arrogancy from us. Quis ullum nobis in ullam Ecclesiam imperium tribuit▪ Who doth give us authority over any church▪ Farneze be it from us that we should think (so the substantial matters be kept) there ought nothing to be granted to antiquity, nothing to custom, nothing to the circumstances of places, times, and persons, etc.  
Again in his book against D. Saravia, having spoken of the tyranny of Popish Bishops, 
Pag. 126  he maketh this exception, Neque tamen: But we do not therefore accuse all Archbishops and Bishops (now so called) of tyranny. For what arrogancy were that? Nay so as they do imitate the examples of the old holy Bishops, and endeavour as much as they can, to reform the house of God so miserably deformed, according to the rule of God's word, why may we not acknowledge all of them now so called Archbishops and Bishops, obey them, and honour them with all reverence▪ So far we are from that which some object unto us most falsely and most impudently, as though we took upon us to prescribe to any Church, in any place, our examples to be followed, like unto those unwise men, who account well of nothing but of that which they do themselves. And to the same effect a little before, 
Pag. 111  If now the reformed Churches of England being underpropped with the authority of Bishops and Archbishops, do continue, as this hath happened to that Church in our memory, that she hath had men of that calling, not only most notable martyrs of God, but also excellent pastors and doctors: Fruatur sane ista singulari dei benificentia quae utinam illi sit perpetua: Let her truly enjoy this singular blessing of God, 
Zanch. d●religi pag 217  which I wish may be perpetual unto her. Furthermore, it should seem, that Zanchius (as moderate and learned a man, as ever favoured the pretended Elderships) was appointed some 12, or 16. years since, to draw a confession of religion for the Churches of France, & others, as Melanchthon had done the Augustan confession for Germany. Accordingly he drew it, and in the same, speaking of Bishops, he useth these words: Non improbamius patres, 
Zanch. derelig. cap, 25.  etc. We do not disallow the fathers, in that after a divers way of dispensing the word and governing the Church, they multiplied diverse orders of Ministers: seeing it was lawful for them so to do, as it is unto us, and seeing it appeareth, that they did it for honest causes, appertaining at that time to the order, decency, and edification of the Church. And in the next article: Hac ratione, etc. By this reason, uz. that the nurseries of dissensions and of schisms may be taken away, we think that these things which were ordained before the Council of Nice, concerning Archbishops, nay, as touching the four patriarchs, may be excused and defended. When this book was perused, and this clause found in it, then forsooth a devise was had, for the staying of it, under pretence, that now it was thought more meet, that there should be a harmony made of all the confessions of divers churches. 
Derelig. pa. 218  But Zanchius himself maketh this the chief cause (if I understand him) why his book did mislike some of them: for that he had written, as before is mentioned, of Bishops. For so he saith, Magnus quidam vir, etc. A certain great man, (meaning Beza, as it is supposed,) did write unto me of this matter, as followeth. Your confession was read by me and N. & others, with great delight. It is written most learnedly, and in a most exquisite method, and (if you except that which you add towards the end, touching Archbishops and the Hierarchy) mihi summopere placuit, it pleased me exceedingly.  
Upon this occasion (as it seemeth) Zanchius printed his said confession, with certain annotations. In the which annotations, he showeth three reasons, for his allowance of Archbishops & Bishops. The first, is grounded upon the practice of the primitive church presently after the Apostles times: the second is, for that he thought it his duty in the draft of his said book, to have regard to those reformed churches which retain both Bishops & Archbishops: and the third, because all the reformed Churches generally, although they have changed the names, yet in effect they do keep the authority: as where they have superintendents, and general superintendents: Nay (saith he) where these new, & base Latin names are not admitted, Ibi tamen solent esse aliquot primarij, penes quos fere tota est authoritas: yet there are in those places usually certain chiefemen, that do in a manner bear all the sway. But I pray you be pleased that I may deliver unto you, the manner of his setting down of his first reason, and that in his own words: for they carry with them a notable condemnation of other men's great pride & rashness. Cum haenc conscriberem fidei confessionem, etc. When I writ this confession of faith, I writ all the things in it of a good conscience: and as I believed, so I freely spoke the scriptures, teaching men so to do. And my faith first of all, and simply, doth rely upon the word of God, & then somewhat also upon the common consent of the whole ancient Catholic Church, if the same be not repugnant to the scriptures. For I believe that what things were defined and received by the ancient Fathers assembled in the name of the Lord, with a general consent of them all, and without any contradiction of the holy Scriptures, the same surely, although they be not of the same authority with holy Scriptures, yet did they proceed from the holy Ghost. Hereof it cometh to pass, that those things which are of this nature, neither would I, neither dare I with a good conscience disallow them. And what can be showed more certainly out of histories, out of the counsels, & out of the writings of all the ancient fathers, then that those orders of Ministers, of the which we have spoken, have been ordained and received in the Church, by the general consent of all christian commonwealths. And who then am I that should presume to reprove that which the whole Church hath approved▪ This is true and religious humility. Thus all grave and discreet godly men have everwritten. Those that contemn all the learned Fathers that went before them, do open a window to their own discredit by those that shall come after them. That which this godly and great learned man ascribeth to the holy Ghost, and durst not with a safe conscience reprove: every saucy jack with us, every ignorant dolt, and every Bridewell rakehell dare disdain and condemn. Tell them of Fathers and Counsels: they make but a mock at it.  
But as yet you know not the cause: why I have especially alleged all these things out of Zanchius. I will therefore now tell it you. And it is this. You have heard how Beza and some others disliked of Zanchius confession, and wherefore. But now he is come about, and is grown to be fully of Zanchius judgement; if a man may believe him. For whereas D. Saravia had cited these places of Zanchius in the behalf of Bishops, and Archbishops; 
Beza contra Sarau. p. 161.  M. Beza answered directly: that neither he nor his brethren do dissent therein from Zanchius: à quo minimè certè dissentimus. But I may not conceal this from you; that although Zanchius hath written so modestly of the callings of Archbishops and Bishops: (as it hath been showed), yet he rather fancied the new platform of Elderships: which Beza omitteth not to put Saravia in mind of, when having yielded to Zanchius his said opinion of Bishops, he addeth other places out of him for his allowance of the Eldership: and then concludeth; 
Beza contra Sarau. p. 164.  Si Zanchio assentiris, qua de re contendimus? If you agree with Zanchius, where about contend we▪ Whereby I observe into what a straight Beza is brought. For notwithstanding any thing that he hath written formerly against such Bishops & Archbishops, as profess the Gospel: he can now be content to revoke it wholly, so as they at Geneva may hold their Elderships. He hath so far engaged his credit for that kind of government, as gladly he would preserve the reputation of it. But he seethe (I am persuaded) it will not be, and that the equality they have dreamt of, tendeth to confusion, & therefore he beginneth to retire himself from that conceit, as well as he may. It is much (his former proceed considered) that ever he could be brought to Zanchius moderation. But yet he cometh nearer unto us; for although his Bishop of man found so small favour with him before, as that he made him the root of iniquity, and needs he must be plucked up: yet now he is much more favourable unto him (if I understand him,) and saith he calleth him the Bishop of man, non simpliciter, 
Beza contra Sara. pag. 143  sed comparatè, not simply, but by way of comparison, in respect (he meaneth) of his Bishop of God. Now he acknowledgeth him to have had place in the church ever since S. Marks time: and that one was so chosen (saith he) certè reprehendi nec potest nec debet: assuredly it neither can nor aught to be reprehended. Nay, he affirmeth: justis de causis fieri debuit, 
Beza contra Sara. pag. 153.  That for just causes it was necessary: Vt unusquispiam & e. presbyterio 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 esset & permaneret: That some one should be the Prelate over the presbytery, (not for a day or an action, as Cartwright saith) but to remain and continue: allowing well of S. Ieromes reason, why such a choice ought to be made, uz. In remedium schismatis, for the remedy of schisms.  
But one thing remaineth, which passeth all the rest. You shall see that for all the former storms; Beza could be very well content at the length (if he might) to be in effect an Archbishop. Doctor Saravia, amongst divers other proofs, for the calling and authority of Bishops; brings an order out of the Apostles Canons, so called because of their antiquity. First you shall see it: and then also hear Master Bezas judgement for the matter of it. 
Canon Apost. cap. 35.  The Bishops of every nation ought to know, who is the chief amongst them, and to account him as it were their head, without whose allowance they ought to do nothing of any moment, but every one those things only, which belong to his own parish, and the villages which are under it▪ Neither let himself do any thing without the knowledge of all. 
Beza contra Sarau. p. 115. 116.  For so there shall be concord, and God shall be glorified through our Lord in his holy spirit. Thus far the Canon: whereof Beza writeth in this sort. There is here mention made of him, that was the chief amongst his fellow Bishops, who was afterward called the Archbishop. And a little after speaking of the same Canon. Quid aliud hic statuitur, quam ordo ille, quem in omnibus locis ecclesiis restitutum cupimus▪ What else is here appointed, than that order which we desire should be restored to the Churches in all places▪ And is not the spiritual government of Geneva as yet in her perfection▪ Have they rashly overthrown there such Offices of the Church, as now they would gladly should be restored again? Those Churches that have followed Bezas humour, in the abolishing of their Bishops, and Archbishops, may they not justly wish he had never been borne? It is an easy matter to overthrow: but he and they all, shall find it a most difficult thing to build up again. Have they pleaded so long for an equality amongst all Ministers, that now they can be content to be as it were the heads & chief over the Bishops within the same countries?  
Well, the conclusion is this: Either Beza writ not the Epistles mentioned to Duditius and Knox, (though he hath set them out in his own name:) or, what he writ in them against Bishops & Archbishops; he meant should be only extended against popish Bishops and Archbishops, (& then Cartwright hath done him great injury, in affirming that he meant our Bishops:) or, he is not the author of the treatise of the three sorts of Bishops, (albeit he calleth it, Scriptum meum, my discourse: and saith as much in effect in his annotations upon the Epistle to the Philippians:) or, 
Beza to Law●. Annot. Philip. 1. verse. 1.  he supposeth in that treatise, that there were popish Bishops, and Archbishops, before, and at the time that the Council of Nice was held; (when in all the world there was neither popery nor popish Bishop:) or, he was ignorant, that Field had translated the said treatise into English, and that it was published amongst the brethren here, and held for currant doctrine: or, by his agreeing with Zanchius; by his writing (as he doth) to the now L. Archbishop of Canterbury: by his allowing the choice of one Minister, to have a permanent office of primacy over the rest: by his wishing the restitution of the orders mentioned in the Apostles Canons: by these things and the rest, specified, (being thoroughly considered.) or (as I said) he hath now altered his opinion (whatsoever he hath written else where to the contrary) or else you must take him as you find him. For my part, I will think the best: & that he hath been formerly abused very greatly by slanderous reports, which caused him to write as he hath done.  
But, howsoever this course against Bishops hath been carried on hitherto amongst them: God be thanked for some amendment. And let us take hold of that which they have granted. You may be bold to build upon it for a truth: that they are so constrained to yield unto. And then to end this chapter: Forasmuch as God himself, appointed an inequality amongst the Priests in the old Testament: Forasmuch as Christ, though he calleth himself a Minister, to minister unto others, was yet the Master over his Apostles and Disciples: Forasmuch as by Christ's institution, and in his own time, the Apostles were superior unto the seventy Disciples: Forasmuch as the Apostles when the gospel began to spread itself, appointed sundry Timothy's & Titus, to govern the Churches in diverse countries and territories: Forasmuch as all the ecclesiastical histories, do record the superiority of Bishops, and do set down, the Catalogues of many of them, and which of the Apostles and Apostolical Bishops, and in what cities & countries they succeeded: Forasmuch as all the ancient general Counsels, & all the ancient and godly learned Fathers, have allowed of Bishops, and of their superiority over the rest of the clergy: Forasmuch as Bishops have been accounted generally throughout the world, to be the Apostles successors, & have continued in the Church ever since the Apostles times: Forasmuch as there was never any one of all the ancient Fathers, nor any learned man for 1500. years but Aerius the heretic, that ever held, that there ought to be no difference betwixt a Bishop & a Priest, (I mean an ordinary Minister of the word:) and that his opinion was imputed unto him 1200. years since by Epiphanius and S. Augustine, for an heresy: Forasmuch as all the chief of the learned men that were the principal instruments under God in this latter age, for the restitution of the Gospel, allowed fully of Bishops, and of their authority, and would not willingly have submitted themselves to their obedience, if they might have been received with any tolerable conditions: Forasmuch as all the reformed Churches in Germany, that do embrace the Augustane confession, have (for the most part) their superintendents and general superintendents, the same in effect with our Bishops & Archbishops: Forasmuch as the chiefest of the german writers now living, do justify the calling & offices of their superintendents, and general superintendents by the word of God. Forasmuch as none of later times ever condemned the calling and authority of such Bishops and Archbishops, as embraced the Gospel (for aught I find) but Beza and his scholars. Forasmuch as Zanchius, a favourer of the Elderliship equality, and now Beza himself joining with him, do both of them confess, that the calling and authority of Bishops and Archbishops may be defended: that they did proceed from the holy Ghost, and that there is nothing more manifest in all the Ecclesiastical histories, all the ancient counsels, and in the writings of all the ancient fathers, than the allowance of them, throughout all christendom: Forasmuch as Beza for his own part, hath written so honourably to the now L. Archbishop of Canterbury, and so generally of all our Bishops now professing the Gospel, condemning those of great arrogancy, that shall presume to speak against them: Forasmuch as you perceive by Bezaes' confession, that there ought to be Bishops or Prelates, such as were in the Church from S. Marks time, for the avoiding and staying of contentions and schisms. And forasmuch (I say) as all these particular points, are in sort, as you have heard, the most of them confessed, & the rest by diverse learned men proved to be true, & so still always to be justified, with as full consent and authority, as may satisfy any men, either of learning or judgement: I see no reason why this anabaptistical dream, of equality amongst pastors, should not be sent back to the place from whence it issued: why the urgers of it, with such bitterness, aught to be accounted otherwise off, than hereby, I trust, you may see they deserve: why Cartwright, and his libeling generation, against the present form of our Church-government, should be any longer endured: or why any calling in the world, next unto the calling of every Moses and sovereign, within their own dominions, should be more esteemed, cherished, reverenced, or honoured, by all true christians, than the callings, offices, & authority of Bishops, and Archbishops: having so general & continual an allowance, both of God himself, and of all godly and rightly zealous men, ever since there was any outward form of church government appointed.   

CHAP. IX. They disagree very greatly concerning Doctors.  
IT is now become, to be a received opinion, especially amongst those that desire to have the kingdom of the pretended Elderships, to reign over them: that S. Paul in the fourrh to the Ephesians, doth make the Doctor, a distinct office, from the Pastor, contrary to the judgement of S. Augustine, Hierome, Chrisostome, Bullinger, Musculus, etc. who make them but one office, even as feeding and teaching, are all one. Of this devise (for aught I do remember) Caluin was the first author; whose conceit Beza followeth. And then it may not be marveled, though all the rest of that humour, do faithfully embrace it. Of this office, our reformers (all of them jointly) do carry this resolute opinion: 
Trau. def. of dis. T.C.  that it is a distinct ordinance of Christ, to continue in the Church for ever: that there ought to be a Doctor in every Parish, wheresoever there is a Pastor: that the doctor is one of the members of the body of Christ: that the doctor is one of those officers, to whom the government of the Church (by Christ's appointment) is committed: & that consequently, he hath by the same authority his place & voice in the Consistory, as well & by as good right, as either the pastor or Elder.  
So as, if there be any reformed churches in the world (where there are pastors) that have not these doctors, & which do not admit them, to have any such authority, nor give them either place or voice in their consistories, then surely all those, and many such like speeches following, do even as properly fall upon them, as they do upon our church, against the which they were first coined, and uttered. 
Learned dis. pa. 17.18.  They refuse the ordinance of God. They deprive the Church of the free gift of Christ: 
T.C. l. 2.465. 463.  they purpose, not to have the Church flourish in true knowledge. They want some necessary gifts which are tied necessarily to that office. 
Def. of dis. p. 12.  The knowledge of the son of God (being necessary to salvation). 
Def. of dis. p. 54.  The means thereunto are absolutely necessary: 
T.C. l. 1.  which is the having of pastors and doctors, 
Demonst. cap. 3  so long as men are subject to ignorance: The church is miserably destitute; that wanteth the doctor. They cannot take away those ministries, that God hath placed in his Church. No christian Churches, aught to serve from the officers (he nameth doctors) that God hath appointed. 
Mart. Thes. Godly ser. 40.41 Def. of dis. p. 16.  If they do, they maim the Church, they take away a member from the body of Christ: they maim his body and deform it. Which, after the manner of their amplifications, is a matter of as great importance, as the addition of any new officers, unto the Church, or unto the body of Christ, making it thereby, both ways, a monster.  
There is a saying of Will Summer, that whosoever pinched him, he would be sure to strike him that stood next him. And I cannot more fitly resemble our reformers rashness. Things go not here as they would have them, which pincheth them; & thereupon whilst they would be revenged upon those that hinder their plots, than (laying about them like mad men) have struck one for another: and so (as in such cases it oft falleth out) have maimed very sore their next and best friends. For I do not remember, that either Geneva, France, the low Countries, or Scotland, do so account of Doctors, as our men do. They reckon them not among those officers, that Christ hath appointed for the government of the church. They have no places or voices, but of courtesy, in their consistories: their Senates, or glorious body of Christ, is without them; and yet they esteem of themselves, to be as perfect and entire bodies, as comely, & of as beautiful a stature, as our platformers, (their scholars) can devise, and counterfeit any. But hear their own words.  
The Ecclesiastical discipline of France, speaketh in this sort: 
Of the Consistory.  The Elders and Deacons do make the Ecclesiastical Senate, wherein the Ministers of the word sit as chief. And after, thus of doctors (as I take it.) The professors of divinity may be admitted into the consistory. It is also thus decreed in the national council held in Hage 1586. 
Artic. 34.  In all churches the consistory shall be compounded of Ministers & elders. By Ministers they mean pastors, as it appeareth there afterwards, in the 74. article. In Scotland likewise, the managing of their discipline, 
The form, etc. printed 1584.  is wholly in the hands of their pastors and Aldermen. They make mention indeed of doctors; but yet so, as their consistories, may be perfect enough without them. And I see no other office assigned there, unto them, then to be schoolmasters, or to read Lectures in the universities. I find it reported in like sort; that at Geneva, Beza is both pastor and doctor. Furthermore, Caluin is of opinion, 
Remonst. p. 14● Cal. Instit. l. 4. c. 3. sect. 4.  that the Doctor hath not to deal with the administration of Discipline. And it is apparent by the laws of Geneva, & of that school, that (saving now it falleth out, Beza is the Rector of the school), otherwise the doctor, as doctor, (for any thing I find) is not of the consistory: at the least (I suppose) that many are not. 
Laws of Geneva.  For they say, that as things are now disposed, they comprehend under this title of Doctors, etc. the order of schools, teachers of tongues, and of human sciences, as well as teachers of divinity.  
But Bertrand is plain and direct: 
Treatise of the Church. cap. 9  The Doctor's charge (saith he) reacheth not to the charge of government, and execution of discipline, etc. Again, 
Ibidem cap. 14.  The Consistory, is composed, made, and consisteth, of the Pastors, and Elders. Whereunto also are admitted and received, the doctors and Deacons: so far forth, and in as much, as they shall judge it to be expedient, etc. Sohnius also saith. 
Ope. to. 1. p. 224.  Doctores non habebant Ecclesiae inspectionem aut gubernationem. The Doctors had not the oversight or rule of the Church: but were like to the catechisors and teachers of younglings; 
Dan. Isag. part. 3. cap. 54.  which were afterward appointed. Danaeus, declaring that the administration of their discipline, doth only belong to their Pastors and Elders, telleth us also (and that from Geneva) that for a need they may take Deacons into their Consistories: but doth not once so much as name the Doctor to be a man worthy of any such favour. 
To. 7. ob. pa. 257  Vezelius likewise sendeth us word from Newstade, that the Doctor's office is not amongst the ordinary functions, which are to be perpetual in the Church; and that it doth rather appertain to the schools. 
Eccl. li. 2. cap. 1 & 5.  Franciscus junius (a principal consistorian) is also most resolute, that the Doctor hath not to deal in the Ecclesiastical government, but only in the scholastical: and that his office is not otherwise an ecclesiastical office, but as schools are Seminaria Ecclesiae, the Seminaries of the Church; and so schoolmasters, ecclesiastical officers. Whose duty (saith Bannosius) is to teach youth, 
De pol. civi. Dei. cap. 9  not as Pastors do in their common language, sed Graeco, Latino, & Hebraeo, but in Latin, Greek, and Hebrew. And for any place in their Elderships, 
Chap. 10  he assigneth them none: making their Consistories to consist only, of Pastors, Deacons, and Elders.  
Now, if these things be true, which here I have reported, is it not wonderful, with what faces Cartwright and the rest, dare tell us so confidently, of such necessity of their pretended doctors, as before I have noted▪ Do all the reformed Churches which they brag of, dwell in such darkness, as that they deform and maim Christ's body, and know it not▪ Nay, peradventure if they be pressed over eagerly with these examples and testimonies, they will not stick, to tell either Geneva, or the best of them all, another manner of tale. Where it is objected, against the great necessity of Doctors, which is pretended, that, some Churches have them not: answer is made, that Sacraments are very profitable, and yet sometime the Church cannot have them: 
Def. of dis. p. 69  and that, although they are not simply, and absolutely necessary to salvation: yet so necessary they are, as the contempt and wilful neglect of them, is damnable. And there is their answer: implying (forsooth) such a like necessity of his Doctors, as though, none could be saved, that contemned this fancy of theirs. Which answer, is puffed up with an heretical humour, of condemning all men, that do withstand them; or, if his dearest friend should speak for him, the best sense that it can possibly carry, is this: that those who encounter with these Doctors, are, in his opinion, but silly and ignorant persons. For otherwise, if they knew but as much as he, and his companions do know, and should resist these officers, there were then no remedy with them, by his divinity, but fall they must needs, within the same danger, that remaineth for such, as contemn the holy Sacraments. So, as if he escape the said imputation, of that heretical humour, of condemning: yet another mark thereof sticketh faster, both upon him and his favourers, than (I fear) they will easily shake off from them; and that is, pride, and an overweening of themselves, and their own learning. But it is a shame, that such insolency is not more carefully repressed. They have rashly written, they know not what; and for their reputations, (with most ridiculous obstinacy, even against Gods forbade, all the world in effect impugning them) yet they will needs look big on the matter, and blush not. In their first admonition, they themselves did most faithfully (after their manner▪) assure the high Court of parliament, 
Admon. 4  that the officers, which had to deal in the Ecclesiastical discipline, (by them at that time urged so vehemently) were Pastors, Elders and Deacons. And after, To these three jointly, the Ministers, Seniors, and Deacons, is the whole regiment of the Church committed. So as then, these parochial Doctors, were clean out of request. And is not this the lightness, 
2. Corinth. 1.17  and fleshly mind, which the Apostle renounceth, in that they come thus unto us, with yea, and nay.  
But as yet you see not all the uncertainties, follies, jars, 
Eccle. pa. 95  squaringes, and contradictions, which I find about this matter, junius saith, that of doctors, some were prophets, & some were doctors. Beza, he holdeth that S. Paul's meaning, was to divide Prophets, into Pastors &, doctors. Whose divisions or opinions cannot both be true; if the rules of division be duly observed. For by the first, every prophet is a doctor: and by the second, every doctor is a prophet. Furthermore, as junius very cunningly will draw, both a prophet and a doctor, out of a doctor, 
Def. of dis. p. 61  & as Beza wringeth the doctor out of the prophet: so Traverse he can fetch him out of a Bishop. Of Bishops (saith he) some are pastors, and some are doctors. By whose extraction, every Geneva schoolmaster (that teacheth but petits) is now become a Bishop. And peradventure I do espy his policy in it.  
A great while it went unchecked amongst them, for an Ecclesiastical canon (as though the king of Persia had made it), that a Doctor was inferior to the Pastor, and to hold the second place. But since it was better considered of, & wisely foreseen, that Cartwright & some others, might more safely take upon them the office of doctors, then of pastors (who are tied more strictly to the observation of divers ceremonies▪) they seem to me, to be quite come about, and to assign the first place mentioned, unto the Doctor: & so no marvel if they make him a Bishop. 
Pag. 15.  The office of teaching (saith the learned discourser) is the chief & principal office in the church. And afterward. The office of a Doctor is to teach. With whom the godly Sermoner seemeth to agree, when he saith: 
Pag. 73.  Man's soul hath two parts: uz. reason, or the mind; and the heart, or the affection. By the fall of Adam there is darkness in the mind, and rebellion in the heart. Now the Lord, to cure these diseases, hath given remedy to his Church: First a Doctor to teach us, and then a Pastor to exhort us, etc. And Fenner-likewise, 
Sacrae Theolog. Pag. 275.  doth place the Doctor before the Pastor.  
But of this matter I have no great regard: whether soever goeth first, as proud cometh after. And peradventure, they have some way to shift it. I will not therefore stand greatly upon it: especially, having some other of their Doctoral points to advertise you of: which are of greater importance. For as yet, they are not agreed, (for any thing I can find) whether their Doctors in that they are Doctors, be Ministers, to take (as we commonly speak) the cure and charge of souls upon them, in particular parishes, or not. In the whole treatise of the discipline of France: the rules and orders set down for making of Ministers, do belong altogether unto such as our men term Pastors. And the same course is also held, in the service book of Scotland. But most plain it is, in the general Synod of Hage, (uz. that Doctors are not such Ministers) where having set down (after the newest fashion) the four functions left us (as they say) by Christ: uz. Pastors, Doctors, Elders, and Deacons: it presently followeth in this manner: 
Art 3.  Nemo sine legitima vocatione, etc. No man ought to take upon him to preach, or administer the sacraments without a lawful calling; although he be a Doctor, an Elder, or a Deacon. Whereby it appeareth (as I said) that their Doctors in some places beyond the seas, are no Ministers, without some further calling. 
Dis. eccles. sac. cap. 1. etc.  And yet our English reformers, are generally of another judgement; making Ministers of the word to comprehend, aswell Doctors, as Pastors: as it appeareth in all their several treatises. I will not quote any other places, than their subscribed new draft of discipline: 
This eccles sac. cap. 1.  and their captains resolution: 
T.C. l. 1. pag. 85. etc.  that the officers mentioned Ephes. 4. were all of them, assuredly, Ministers of the word.  
Lastly, if they should be able in time to compass this point: that their Doctors, by virtue of that calling, might go for such Ministers; yet a new controversy thereupon ariseth, not inferior to any of the rest: uz. whether it appertaineth to these kind of Ministers of the word, to be Ministers also of the sacraments. Caluin thinketh, 
Inst. lib. 4. cap. 3. sect. 4.  that this is a part of the difference between the Pastor and the Doctor: Quod Doctores, nec disciplinae, nec sacramentorum administrationi praesunt: That Doctors have neither to deal with the discipline ', nor with the administration of sacraments. But Cartwright (little esteeming Caluins' judgement in this matter) is most earnest to the contrary: who grounding himself (as he would seem) upon divers reasons, examples, and authorities, giveth out these Oracles. 
T.C. l. 1. p. 139.  The Ministers of the word & sacraments, cannot be pulled in sunder. It is a perpetual ordinance; that the same should be the Ministers of the word, and sacraments. These words are plain enough, to express a man's mind. But you may not give any faith unto him. For (as I suppose) he hath altered his judgement. And yet, if you will peruse the place; you shall not find him more peremptory, in any one point, throughout all his writings.  
In the new draft of discipline (whereunto he hath subscribed,) it is thus defined. The Church-officers are first the Ministers of the word, etc. And those are Pastors, Qui doctrinam & sacramenta administrant; Who administer doctrine and the sacraments: or Doctors, Qui versantur in sana doctrina docenda, & convincendis erroribus; Who are occupied in teaching of wholesome doctrine, and in confuting of errors. And thus his second sort of Ministers of the word, is quite debarred, and cut off, from the administration of the sacraments. Not to gratify, I suppose, either Caluin, or the truth: but because it concerneth most, their own present estate. For as the Doctor, for their sakes, began to be advanced a step higher than he was before: so is he now likewise (as I imagine) in the same respect, disburdened of that base office. They can find in their hearts, to preach: but, urge them to administer the sacraments, and their common answer is this: we have nothing to do with that duty: it belongeth to the Pastors, and we are Doctors. The matter is; they will not observe the orders of the Church, in the administration of sacraments: whereupon it is now come to pass, that there may be certain Ministers of the word, who have not authority to administer the sacraments. 
Proverb. 5. ●.  But let them go. They have not written truth, in the tables of their hearts: and therefore she hath forsaken them.   

CHAP. X. Their Aldermen must be men of good calling.  
AS concerning the number of these pretended rulers, there will be a more fit place to speak of that hereafter. Now you shall first know: what manner of men they must be. In most parishes of England, no doubt, but the brethren must content themselves, with very mean fellows, Husbandmen, Tailors, Butchers, Carpenters, Shoemakers, Thatchers, daubers, and such like. Indeed at Geneva they flaunt it out. For there having twelve in number, 
Laws of Geneva.  they must all be men of state: uz. Two of the Lords of the little Council: four of the Council of three score; and six of the Council of two hundred. Which policy pleaseth the Ministers there so greatly: that (to their commendation be it spoken) they wish the like order to be observed in all places, as nearly as may be. M. Beza speaking hereof, 
Epistle before Heluet. conf.  saith: That there must be consideration had, that Princes, and Noblemen, and such as have authority, be chosen to be of the signory. Who being so chosen (saith Cartwright, 
Lib. 3. pag. 70. Demonst. c. 14.  and his demonstrator if they should disdain to join in consultation with poor men, they should disdain, not men, but Christ himself. According to some proportion of which precept (as jiudge) the said Cartwright in another place affirmeth: 
T C. lib. 1. pag. 179.  that is the practice of the Churches reform, (after his fashion) to choose such Elders, as are able to live without charging the Church any whit. So that as near as they can, they will have the chiefest and the richest, to be their Elders; that so the honourable estate of the Ministers, might show itself with greater glory. For, as it is set down, in the seventh Genevian article: In case one of the two Lords of the Council chosen, should then also be a Syndicke; yet he must not be in the consistory, but as a common Elder, to govern the Church with the rest of the company: 
Demonst. cap. ● Def. of eccles. gone. 141.  Yea, and which is more; Every such officer is to be continually resident upon his charge, and that in his own person. What, not a substitute to be admitted for a Nobleman? It is well. Then Kings, Princes, Magistrates, Lords, & Gentlemen: look well to your charges. 
De eccles. c●. 1●.  Mark (if it please you) how you are ranged: and give place to your betters. For (saith Danaeus Your degree or kind; Longè est dissimile, ac inferius ordine pastorum, Is far unlike, and inferior to the order of pastors. You are but made their assistants, as the 70. were to Moses. Ergo quae inter eiusdem Collegij & Curiae assessores, sive consiliarios, & ipsum praesidem differentia est, eadem est inter presbyteros & pastors eiusdem. And therefore know this: that there is as much difference betwixt you, & the pastors of your consistories (wherein you serve:) as is betwixt a king, and his councillors. Fie upon superiority, may these Ministers say, fie upon it. Indeed we (saith one of them in effect) do rest, 
Def. of eccles. gone 70.  not in names carrying show, of worldly rule and lordly commandment, etc. but of service, guiding, leading, overseeing, directing, & such like. Which maketh me to remember the Friar in Chaucer, that desired of the Capon, but the liver; of a white loaf, but a shiver; and after that, a roasted pigs head: but for him he would not any beast were dead. They will seek to be no higher, than be above princes. They will take nothing upon them (men of great humility) but even, to be guiders, leaders, overseers, and directors. And as for names of any great show or honour, they care not for them: so they may have but only the estimation, which is due to men, that have such vain titles. Even Chaucer's Friar, up and down. But what names will please them, you shall find that after a sort, in the next chapter.   

CHAP. XI. Their disagreement about the name of their ruling associates.  
YOu must not think, but that in agreeing by what name their pretended governors must properly be called, they will be very curious. For in christening, but of private persons: their new discipline provideth, that no names be given, Quae paganismum, vel papatum resipiunt: which smell either of paganism, or popery: but such especially, as are in the scriptures. And therefore, for Robert, Alice, and such like, etc. some of them (as one noteth) have devised these names for their children. The Lord is near: More trial: Reformation: Discipline: joy again: Sufficient: From above: Free gift: More fruit: Dust: names, in our English phrases, not very usual, or oft found in the scriptures. As if for example; where we read: Adam knew Eve: or Kain killed Abel: we should say after their fashion: Red knew living: and Possession slew vanity. If they should translate the scriptures: they would do it (as it seemeth) very properly. But now, if in a matter of so little weight, (in respect of that I have in hand) they have thus bestirred themselves, and that with so great discretion: you must think, that for their Aldermen, (the sinews of their own strength:) they have left no one corner in their heads unsearched, to set them out to the world in their best colours: indeed every man (almost) as his fancy hath lead him. By that which hath been said already in the sixth chapter, it followeth consequently: that, if upon their agreement together, (which I never look for) it happen: that their pretended regiment, shallbe called Synedrium then their new Aldermen, whether they be Princes, Magistrates, Lords, Gentlemen, or (where they want) Cobblers, Tinkers, Brokers, or Tapsters: they must be called (as I suppose) Synedrians: if Council, than Councillors: if Consistory, than Consistorians: if Eldership, than Elders: if Assembly, than Assemblistes': if Deaconship, than Deacons: if Church, than Churchians: if Senate, then Senators: and if Synagogue, than Archisynagogians.  
To these also, may be added some other: so as you will content yourselves, to see some little more crossing. Presbyterorum proprio Christianis vocabulo comprehendi pastors, 
Serranus To. 4. cont. jes. pa. 118  & doctores, nemo nescit. No man is ignorant (saith Serranus) that amongst Christians, this word Priest, doth properly signify a pastor and doctor, that is, Ministers of the word. Nay, saith Cartwright, in effect: that is a lie, by your leave. The name of Elder most properly agreeth to those, which have the government only. 
Lib. 3. pag. 33.  And Traverse his scholar, will not shrink from him an inch. Those Elders (saith he) which only rule, proprio nomine presbyteri appellantur, 
Dis. eccle. p. 124  if you will speak properly, are to be called Priests, or Elders. I think he meaneth, amongst Christians. It seemeth also, that they be called not simply Elders: but Elders of the people. For Beza is resolute, that, adiecto epitheto, the rulers in the Synedrion, or Consistory, had this addition to their names, 
Annot. Math. 16. 21. & 26. 25.  to be termed, seniores populi, Elders of the people: with whom, notwithstanding his credit, an other incountreth: a Buzzard in respect, but yet a fellow as confident as Beza, saying: Seniores populi non erant ex eclesiastico Synedrio, 
I.B. polit. p. 100  sed ex civili. The Elders of the people were not of the ecclesiastical Senate, but of the civil. By whose judgement then, our Elders may not have that epithet, which Beza affirmeth was due unto them.  
Besides, if we shall believe Beza, & Cartwright, etc. these Elders are commended unto us in the scriptures, 
Annot. Phil. 1.2. Act. 20.28.  under the name of Bishops, 
T.C. Counterp. 169.  and so we may call them. From whom Traverse (if he be the author of the defence of ecclesiastical government, 
Def. pa. 61. 62.  & of the book of ecclesiastical discipline) first dissenteth: & then secondly also, from himself. For in his said defence, he is most peremptory: and bringeth diverse reasons for it: uz. That ruling Elders are not comprehended under the name of Bishop: 
Disc. 122.  & yet in his other book, he saith generally of all their Elders, both Ministers, and Rulers. They are said 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to govern, rule, & oversee. Now if their duty set down in the scriptures, be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 their office is surely 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 & the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 must needs comprehend them, aswell as the Ministers of the word.  
But, that I may omit their thwarting; thus the stream runneth, 
Lib. 3. pa 34.  from Cartwright and junius fountains. The titles of Christ's vicar's, and of good prelate's, do both agree (saith Cartwright) unto the Elders, 
Eccles. lib. 2. c, 2.  which only govern. And junius thus in effect. The scriptures do call, both Ministers & Elders indifferently: 
1. Cor. 14.32.  sometimes Prophets, (as The spirits of the Prophets are subject to the Prophets:) sometimes Episcopos, id est, inspectore●. 
Act. 20.28.  Bishops, 
Phil. 1.1  that is, overseers (as Take heed to yourselves, and to all the flock, 
1. Tim. 3.2.  whereof the holy Ghost hath made you over-feers, 
Tit. 1.7.  to feed the Church of God, etc.) sometimes rulers, or labourers; & rulers: 
1. Thef. 5.12.  (as We beseech you brethren, that you know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord:) sometimes ductores, 
Heb. 13.17.  seu duces; leaders or captains: (as Obey them that have the oversight of you, and submit yourselves, for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, etc.) sometimes pastors: (as, 
Ephes 4.11.  He therefore gave some to be Apostles, & some Prophets, and some Evangelists, & some Pastors and teachers:) sometime Elders: 
Act. 14.23.  (as When they had ordained them Elders in every City, 
Rom. 15.16.  etc.) sometimes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉▪ Ministers: (as Where Paul saith thus of himself, that I should be a Minister of jesus Christ toward the Gentiles, ministering the Gospel of God, etc.). sometime 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Ministers: 
Act. 26.16.  (as, I am Paul whom thou persecutest: but arise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to appoint thee a Minister, and a witness, both of the things which thou hast seen, and of the things in the which I will appear unto thee:) sometime deacons, that is Ministers; as, Who is Paul▪ Who is Apollo▪ But the Ministers by whom ye believed, etc. And again, the same junius, in the book before noted, 
Eccles. p. 119.  of both their kinds of Elders: 
Math. 5.15.  Sunt salterrae, sunt lux mundi in sua ecclesia singuli: They are the salt of the earth, they are the light of the world, every one of them in their several Churches.  
If Augustine, Ambrose, Jerome, Chrisostome, and all the rest of the ancient Fathers were now alive, and should understand to what purpose these scriptures were thus alleged; would they not wonder, that ever any men should live, that durst with such boldness, and so little show of truth, so abuse the word of God, themselves, their readers, and all the world▪ Nay, I am persuaded; that if M. Caluin himself (that first devised these officers) were now alive, he would be greatly ashamed of this corruption, & so notorious an abuse. But God hath dealt with them already: according to his wont custom in such a case. For they are wonderfully divided, and do confound themselves, in their expositions of the several places; as when I come unto that point, it shall in some sort appear.  
But of all these confused number of names, for their Elders, if I were asked upon which I guessed they would in time most properly insist: I fear it will prove to be that, of Archsynagogians, or of Archrulers of their said government, 
Counterp. p. 12.  deduced, as they confess, from the synagogue. For (saith the Counter-poison) God hath ordained for the rulers of the synagogue, Churchrulers, or Elders. Likewise Cartwright. The chief of the synagogue, are the same, which we call Elders, & ancients of the church. And Beza also. Archisynagogi dicuntur, 
Lib. 2. pa. 444.  qui particularium ecclesiarum negotia administrabant, & propterea censentur ecclesiae nomine Mat. 18.17. They are called Archrulers of the synagogue, who did manage the affairs of particular churches; & are therefore in Math. 18. termed by the name of the church. 
Lib. 3. pa. 637.  But the said Cartwright passeth. Their Synagogues (saith he) being the same, that our churches, in every one of them, being not one, but many princes: the urging of that example, bringeth divers chief governors, or Archbishop's intocuerie particular church. His meaning is (as I take it) that if they be urged too far, & so constrained to speak their consciences (which peradventure as yet they would be loath to do) they must then of necessity deal plainly with us, & tell us roundly; that all the Elders which they look for (esteem them as we list, that have no such divine insight into them) they are indeed, and must be; our chief governors, our Archbishops, and our Princes.  
Surely such artisans, & mean persons, as should occupy these rooms in most parishes, if they had their platform, might well have been contented with his former titles given unto them: of Christ's vicar's, & God's prelates; though they had wanted these. But it would be remembered, that if such as are under the Ministers, be of this great honour: what are we to think of the Ministers themselves, that are so far above them. I had forgotten to tell you how Cartwright affirmeth, though falsely: that the word priesthood is sometime taken in the ecclesiastical writers, 
Lib. 2. pag 370.  for this kind of Elders. Whereby I conjecture, that their grand pastors, (especially, in such cities as have many parishes under one consistory,) must be, if not summi sacerdotes, the high priests: yet at the least, principes sacerdotum, the princes of Elders: or rather, reges regum, kings of kings.  
But by what titles they will maintain their own great pre-eminence above their Elders, I do not greatly regard it. This is strange, that after so many disputations, and libels, against the names of our Archbishops, to prove them Antichristian, 
Annot. Act. 13.  or unlawful, (we having but two of them in all England) they would now (if they might be suffered) impose upon us, 
Lib. 2. pag. 407.  seven or eight Archbishops in every parish. What a wring & wresting is there of this word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by Beza, Cartwright, and others: as being for the imperiousness of it, unmeet to agree with the Ministers of the Gospel▪ And yet now, their new devised Elders (worthy men for the most part I warrant you) may every one of them, lawfully be called an Archbishop. I would gladly know for my learning, why 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, joined to this word Bishop; should be rather an unlawful name for some Minister, than when it is joined to all their own Synagogians, or Churchrulers? They that dare propound such ridiculous things, as these are, & defend then: may say & maintain what they list. Shoemakers, Peuterers, Barbers, Pinner's, Pointers, & Painters, (being chosen to be of this synagogue) to become presently thereby, our pastors, leaders, watchmen of our souls, Christ's vicar's, God's prelates, Bishops, & Archbishops, continuing their occupations, & having nothing to do with the word & sacraments: would have been accounted by all the ancient Fathers, to have been, rather the conceit of some frantic mad men, than of any, that had either learning, or judgement.   

CHAP. XII. They cannot agree where to find their Elders qualities described.  
I Think it can hardly be showed in the scriptures: that God himself did ever ordain any special officers, either ecclesiastical, or civil: but he likewise appointed, what manner of men they should be, in respect of their abilities and virtues, for their faithful discharging of them. Which maketh me, more than to suspect, that these pretended Elders, for all the outcries made in their behalf: to be indeed but counterfeits; in that they cannot agree among themselves, where they are described. The form of prayer made at Geneva, 
Learned dis. pag.  and practised in Scotland, and with divers alterations, offered not long since, to have been (by parliament) established in England, & others that follow them, do thus describe them. The Elders must be men of good life, and godly conversation, without blame and all suspicion, careful for the flock, wise, and above all things, fearing God.  
And for all these qualities, the chief place alleged (as I think) is out of Numbers: 
Numb. 11. 16. 17. 24. 25.  where it is said, That God appointed Moses to choose 70. men of the Elders of Israel to bear the burden of the people with him: which Moses having performed, the Lord, according to his former promise, took of the spirit, which was in Moses, and put it upon the 70. ancient men, & when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease. Out of which words, I find nothing for them: except they will have them Prophets. But I do here dispute nothing, let them speak for themselves. Welsurely, then saith a discoverer of untruths, that came lately from Scotland: 
Pag. 8.6.8.  They are ignorant in the cause of Christ's government, that will affirm these were Ecclesiastical officers. The very place itself, and all the circumstances thereof, do prove them civil. And where it is said that the seventy Elders prophesied, it can no more prove them to belong to the government of the Church, than the like gift bestowed upon Saul can make him a Church officer.  
Bannosius, he relieth not upon the book of Numbers, for this matter: but if you will be content with Exodus, he can fet them thence with a wet finger: marry you must have it by way of collection. Si ex praecepto Domini etc. If by the Lords commandement the governors of the common wealth of the Hebrews, were men of courage, fearing God, men dealing truly, hating covetousness, multo magis tales esse debent Presbyteri etc. Much more these Elders ought to be such valiant men. In good time. And other place out of the old Testament for this purpose he nameth not any: which showeth he was brought to a very low ebb.  
There is a description of the visible Church, which (they say) was printed at Rochel: Wherein these Elders are thus described. They must be of judgement and wisdom, endued with the spirit of God, able to discern between cause and cause, between plea and plea &c: and to that end, besides the place of Numbers mentioned, they quote another out of the Chronicles, where jehosophat, speaking of the judges of the high Court, 
2. Chro. 19.9 10.  for all causes at jerusalem saith: thus shall ye do in the seat of the Lord, faithfully and with a perfect heart, and in every cause that shall come unto you, from your brethren that dwell in their cities: between blood and blood, between law and precept, statutes and judgement ye shall judge them. Where I note, the wariness of these fellows, in attributing unto their Elders Commission to discern between cause and cause, plea and plea; that they leave out purposely, between blood and blood etc. For the which Beza will not give them any thanks at all: having devised a trick (as after it shall appear) how they may deal in those matters, aswell as in the other. Indeed in all alike. But this place rather serveth to show their opinions, what causes the Elders are to be judges in, then to describe their qualities, otherwise then that they must be faithful men. They will play small play before they sit out. And thus you have what they bring to this end (for aught I find) out of the old Testament: with such good agreement as hath been declared, Which causeth me to imagine that the Lord never thought of any such officers, in the time of the Law. For if he had: Moses surely (in mine opinion) would have described their qualities: aswell as he did the 70. judges and other officers (to divers purposes) by him appointed, and not have left them (especially such noble Prelates and Cherubins) to be described in this sort: hit I, miss I, by guess.  
But peradventure, there are more pregnant places in the new Testament, to supply some want in Moses: whereupon they do jump with one consent and good agreement together. I would be glad to see that: but he liveth not, I am persuaded that shall ever see it. When proud men dissent: they are hardly reconciled in matters of wit and learning. 
De polit. 71.  Let us try them. The qualities required to be in an Elder, are set down by the Apostle in the Epistle to Titus (saith Bannosius) and some others, in these words thus in effect. An Elder must be unreprovable, the husband of one wife, 
Tit. 1.  having faithful children, which are not slandered of riot, neither are disobedient, not froward, not angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre, but barbarous, one that loveth goodness, wise, righteous, holy, temperate, etc. Nay (saith Caluin) though there be two kinds of Elders, 
Cal. in Tit.  yet contextus statim ostendit, hic non alios quàm Doctores intelligi, hoc est, qui ad docendum ordinabantur: The Text doth show, that here no other are to be understood, but Doctors, that is those that were ordained to teach. 
Ecclesiasticus pag. 64.68.  With Bannosius agreeth junius, 
T. C. lib. 3. pag. 35.  and with Caluin, Cartwright. So that as yet we have no certainty. But let Beza be heard, and then all shall be well. You shall hear, 
junius Ecclesiasti. 6 8.  both Beza and junius jointly. They are out of all doubt, that where the Apostle in his Epistle to Timothy, 
Beza annot. 1. Tim 3.1.  doth describe the qualities, which are required in a Bishop, there also and in the same words, he setteth out the Elder in like manner: For that the word (Bishop) doth comprehend in that place, both a Minister of the word, and the ruling Elder also. Now than we have him: and because we have been so long seeking for him, you shall have him at large, according to these men's opinions. He that desireth the office of a ruling Elder, desireth a good work. A ruling Elder therefore must be unreprovable, the husband of one wife, watching, sober, modest, barbarous, apt to teach, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre, but gentle, no fighter, not covetous, one that can rule his own house honestly, having children under obedience with all honesty: for if any man can not rule his own house, how shall he care for the Church of God? He may not be a young Scholar, lest he being puffed up, fall into the damnation of the Devil. He must also be well reported of, even of them that are without, lest he fall into rebuke and the snare of the Devil. There is not a Shoemaker in Geneva, but he is such a one ye may be sure: and in England you may have a dozen of them in every parish.  
But may we now indeed, rest in these men's opinions▪ Do what you list. But Caluin and Traverse are directly against them. For Caluin never comprehendeth, the only ruling Elder, under the word Bishop: and upon this place of Timothy, he maketh Pastor & Bishop, words of one signification: as he doth also upon the 1. to the Philippians, and the first to Titus: which quite excludeth this counterfeit Elder, from shrouding himself here under the Bishop. With Caluin also agreeth herein, 
Disc. Eccle. fol. 57.58.65. and 101. Pag. 61.  our peragon Traverse, even in all the places cited: as likewise the author of the defence of Ecclesiastical discipline (whether it be Travers or not) saying: they cannot be here contained under the name of BB.  
And where shall we then find them? It is a plain case (saith Traverse:) where should we find them but where they are▪ 
Ibidem.  They are contained in that Epistle to Timothy, under the name of Deacons. Nay saith master Caluin, where Saint Paul speaketh of Deacons, quod alij ad Presbyteros referunt Episcopo inferiores, caret fundamento: in that some refer it to Elders that are inferior to the Bishop, it wanteth a foundation. Restat ut Diaconos intelligamus, quorum mentionem facit Lucas Act 6.. Sunt qui curam pauperum habebant. It remaineth that we understand those Deacons of whom mention is made Act. 6. And those were they that had the care of the poor committed unto them. But now cometh in M. Cartwright on the behalf of his pupil Travers: saying in effect. It is true that Caluin was a learned man in his time: 
Lib 3. pag. 34  but yet herein Travers doth seem to be of the sounder opinion. These be his words: In the word Deacons (as it is well observed in the book of the Discipline of England) the Apostle comprehendeth both the Elders, and those which had the Alms to dispose. Indeed master Cartwright is a fellow for a dead lift. For if I understand him well, he will have his Elders described, both under the nams' of Bishops & of Deacons: as though they were, a third thing compounded of them both. 
Lib. 3. p. 54.  I have showed (saith he) that both they and their office be there: which is the same with the Bishops: that only of teaching excepted. But junius, when he sorteth them with the ministers of the word, leaveth not out that point as impertinent to them: 
Eccles. 69.  but maketh them 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, apt to teach. From whom (as I take it) Beza dissenteth not much, 
Anno. 1. Cor. 12.8.  when speaking of these Elders, he saith: qui & ipsi interdum doctrinae verbo praeerant, even they sometimes did preach the word. 
Thes. Geneu. pa. 217.  And Abraham Henric, is direct: presbyteris, peculialiter sic appellatis, verbi quoque administratio commissa est, etc. The administration of the word is also given to the Elders peculiarly so called, &c: but to another end then to Pastors and Doctors: vz: ut judicijs ecclesiasticis, praeeuntibus pastoribus praesint: that next after the Pastors they might bear rule in their ecclesiastical judgements, or courts of justice.  
This Henric may mean well: but to my seeming he doth not well express himself. Master Beza can open this point more directly. Indeed he hath so opened it, as he hath already almost undone his Elders. For now by his statutes of Geneva, the twelve Elders, must all be preachers. This mystery was never revealed, so directly to the world before, as I think till now of late. The Elders we speak of, (saith Master Beza) do feed the church with doctrine, being joined with the Pastors and Doctors, in the exercise of ecclesiastical judgements. Yea what differeth that public preaching of the word, which is proper to Pastors, from that which is exercised in the Consistories, according as it is meet, that some should be convinced, some instructed, some reproved, or some comforted, saving in this, that the Pastor preacheth publicly to the assembly, and the Elders but to private men, being called into the Consistory? If their Pastors preach no better in their Pulpits, than I imagine their Artisan preachers do, in their Elderships: peradventure he that should say their preaching were but prattling, might sometimes say it truly.  
But what should we respect any of these fellows: let us follow Cartwright and Traverse (in the point they agree in) and through their spectacles, behold: how these Elders are to be furnished, under the shadow of Deacons. They must be honest, not double tongued, not given to much wine, neither to filthy lucre, having the mystery of faith in pure conscience: 
Tim. 3.8.9.10 11.12.13.  And let them first be proved, then let them minister if they be found blameless: Likewise their wives must be honest, not evil speakers, but sober and faithful in all things. They must be the husbands of one wife, and such as can rule their children well, and their own households. For they that have ministered well, get themselves a good degree, and great liberty in the faith, which is in Christ jesus.  
And thus you have your Elders, with their complete armour, laid out before you: after this and that man's fashion, agreeing as justly, as Germans lips together. But I may not omit one thing, before I end this point. It may peradventure seem strange unto you (as surely it doth to me) that any men of judgement: (whether they will have their Elders endued, with those qualities that were required in the 70. chapter of Exodus, or in the judges, Numbers, 2. or in the Bishops, or in the Deacons, Tim. 3. and Tit. 1.) should but once dream, that there might so many men of such virtue and qualities be found in a kingdom, as might supply every parish with six, or eight of them. But I will tell you what Cartwright faith for remedy hereof: 
T.C. lib. 1. pag. 180.  believe him as your discretion shall direct you. When men are called (faith he) to a lawful and profitable calling, and especially to a public calling, God doth pour his gifts on that person, which is called so plentifully, that he is as it were suddenly made a new man. An excellent conceit. But to see my simplicity. I ever thought, that where God appointeth, what manner of men (for their gifts and qualities) should be chosen, to such and such offices, there ought ever especial care to be had, that none destitute of them, as near as might be, should be admitted unto them. And if I have been deceived herein, I marvel how it cometh to pass, that many men unfit for their gifts, being upon diverse occasions more necessary, then can happen for the choice of their Elders, admitted into the ministry, such wants have not been so plentifully supplied, and they suddenly become new men. But the rule holdeth of likelihood, only for their Elders. Ah he meaneth (I suppose,) that God will take off the spirit, that is in him and the rest of their Pastors and doctors, and put it upon them, as he did from Moses, for the 70. Numb. 2. and this you may believe when you hear them all prophesy. Surely (for aught I can see,) they have not any such abundant store of the gifts of God's spirit, that they can spare much to be taken from them, except they shall be left wholly destitute. But it were good we sent into Scotland, and some other Countries, to learn more certainly of this strange metamorphosis, before we be too light of credit. For as I take it, we may not look for such extraordinary matters now. And beside, I fear, if their Elders should receive any portion of that spirit, which is in some reformers; it will be of that which offered himself, to be a lying spirit in the mouths of certain Prophets: and then it were better for us, they never prophesied.   

CHAP. XIII. Of their uncertainty, whether their Elders be ecclesiastical men, or lay men.  
THere hath been an ancient distinction, betwixt the Priests and the people: the one sort being termed the Clergy, and the other the laity. Which notwithstanding Beza misliketh: Veteres patres cleri nomen ad collegium Ecclesiasticorum ministrorum transtulerunt. 
Annot. 1. Pet. 5.3.  The ancient fathers did transfer the name of Clergy unto the College of Ecclesiastical Ministers, etc. but they ought not to have done so. If they had been as wise as Beza is: it is like they would not. The pretence of this reproof, which is made by diverse, is said to be in respect of God's people, for that they are thereby injuried. And have they devised, a way how to recompense them▪ Surely they have. But it is, as mean a one, as ever you knew. For they divide all Christians, into Church-Ministers, or officers: and into Idiots. Christ said not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to the idiots: (that is unto all the people:) whose sins ye remit, etc. Sed ecclesiastica authoritate praeditis: but to such as are endued with Ecclesiastical authority, 
Beza de excom. pag. 54  (saith Beza.) Again, touching the same words. Sunt iudicialia haec verba. 
De excom. pag. 60.  Ideoque ad 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 id est, nullo publico munere in Ecclesia fungentes, (quos postea laicos vocarunt,) minimè pertinentia. They are judicial phrases. And therefore do not appertain unto Idiots, that is, to those that have no public office in the church, whom afterward they called Lay-men. Laicis postea hos vocarunt quibus oppositi sunt Ecclesiastici. After they called them Lay-men to whom the Ecclesiastical were opposite. And because hereof great abuse did grow: they will now renew the former distinction.  
So now as many, as are neither pastors, Doctors, Elders, nor Deacons, be they Kings, Councillors, Lawyers, or whatsoever, they must satisfy themselves, with the names of Idiots. And if you will know the very nature of the word Idiota, 
Ann. 1. Cor. 14.  master Beza will also tell you. Idiots are quasi privati as it were private men. But more fully in another place. By the name of Idiots, (propriè significantur plaebeij & viles &c. 
Ann. Act. 4.13  jam veró quia eiusmodi homines sere indocti sunt & rerum imperiti, idcirco factum est ut Idiotae dicantur, qui minimè ingeniesi sunt aut intelligentes:) Plebeiall and base persons are properly signified. Now therefore because such men are for the most part unlearned and ignorant, it is come to pass, that they who are not ingenious or men of understanding, are called Idiots. Wise men, and Idiots. And did S. Paul make this division? well: I fear that they themselves will prove the Idiots. But in the mean time, the state of the Land, that hath no place in your regiment, is beholden unto them, for marshalling them so discreetly.  
Besides this distribution, they allow also of another; wherein all the said Idiots are termed civil men: and their wise governors ecclesiastical persons. A name as strange, almost for Artisans and men of trade, (such as before are mentioned) as the former of Bishops and Archbishops. And yet it must needs be so. For saith Cartwright: 
Lib. 1. pag. 183 Heb. 13. 17, Lib. 3.69  For so much as they were Church officers and ●uer the people in matters pertaining to God, & such as watched over the souls of men, though they were no pastors to preach the word, yet they were no lay-men (as they term them) but ecclesiastical persons. Which if any man will deny, let him deny also, 
Counterpoys. pag. 100L.  that two and two makes four. For, saith the Counterpoison: Whosoever is called with due examination and trial; with the consent of those to whom it appertaineth, and are with fasting and prayers, or with prayers only and with imposition of hands, separated or put a part to that office, they are ecclesiastical persons, and not Lay-men (as they term them.)  
But Beza (as I take it) is plain in this point: 
Beza de exco. pag. 112.  and to our men very opposite. For saith he, in proof of his Elders: Certè nisi etc. Surely except some men chosen out of the body of the whole assembly, should sit in that company, by whom the whole Church is governed: The general name of the church would scarcely agree to that company: with which name notwithstanding it is adorned, because through that means, men being chosen out of all the parts of the whole Church, they might represent the whole church. By which words, his meaning either must needs be, that for the better representation of the whole church, there must be Lay-men, (as we call them) aswell of the Eldership, as Ministers; or that their Elders ought to be chosen out of the company of men, of every trade and vocation; which cannot in any wise agree to the practice of Geneva, where men of the state, and Councillors, are only chosen. Now if upon their choice, as being Idiots before, they are become wise; So of Lay-men, they are presently made Ecclesiastical persons: then the representation of both the estates, is drowned: by which means their Eldership might lose the name of the Church, or at the least scarcely continue it.  
Hear cometh also further into my mind, another opinion of Bezaes', fit for this place: which in my judgement doth mightily thwart not himself only, but all his abettors for erecting up of their Eldership. He saith, 
De. excom. pa. 53.  when Christ used these words: Tell the church etc. Math. 18. In discipulorum persona legitimum ecclesiae nomine consensum congregatum intelligebat, he understood, in the person of his Disciples, a lawful Senate or company assembled together in the name of the church. And in his confessions, 
Cap. 5. sect. 43  he also affirmeth; that the keys of the kingdom of heaven were given, omnibus verè presbyteris; to all true Elders, including his only ruling Elders, in persona Apostolorum, in the person of the Apostles. Which opinion of his, first overthroweth his collection: that there must needs be unpriestly Elders, for the said representation by him devised. For here we see, the Church represented sufficiently in his judgement. Math. 16.19. and 18. v. by Christ's disciples and Apostles, they being all of them ministers of the word, and sacraments, to whom Christ there spoke. Secondly, if the Apostles, in receiving the keys, sustained the person of all true priests: and if Peter, when Christ said unto him, unto thee, I will give the keys, sustained the person of the Apostles: It followeth that one man may sustain, the person of all Bezaes' true Elders or Eldership: and so consequently, it is not against the word of God, if we say, Tell the Church, that is, tell the Bishops uz. one man.  
But to leave Beza to his own pleasure, both to say, and do what he list: especially in his own Consistory. And yet truly it were good reason, if their Elders be Christ's vicar's, God's prelate's, Bishops, & Archbishops, they should be accounted ecclesiastical persons: and I am persuaded that the one is as true as the other.   

CHAP. 14. Their disagreement concerning the continuance of their Elders in their office.  
AT Geneva, their Elders are simply chosen, but for a year. In the French church in London, they are elected (as I hear) for three years. It was thus ordered in the Nationall Council of the Belgic churches at Hage 1586. Seniores et Diaconi duos annos inseruiant: quotannis numerus dimidiatus commutabitur etc. Let the Elders and Deacons serve two years, and the half of them shall be changed every year, etc. 
The elect of elder.  Scotland followeth the Geneva order (if their book be true of the form of their prayers printed 1584.) and doth retain them, but for a year. And then every man as he was before. A prelate, Christ's vicar, a Bishop, an Archbishop, an ecclesiastical man, this year; & a plain Dauber, a Thatcher, a Tailor, a Cobbler, and a Tinker, the next year: and so by turns, backward and forward, if any of the same persons shall be divers times chosen, as often as it falleth out amongst them. What▪ election and ordination by trial, prayers, fastings, & imposition of hands, and all but for a year▪ It maketh me to remember a saying of Tertullian in the like case: 
Of prescript. against  Ordinationes eorum temerariae, leaves, inconstantes etc. Their ordinations are rash, light, and inconstant, etc. Alius hodiè Episcopus, alius cras, etc. Hodiè Diaconus qui eras lector, hodiè presbyter qui cras laicus. This day one is a Bishop, and to morrow another etc. To day a Deacon, and to morrow a Reader, he that is a priest or an Elder to day is the next day after become a Lay-man etc.,  
Now, if they will say: that they have some rules, out of the scriptures for this their mutability: (as I trust they will be ashamed to say otherwise) & that (as Cartwright saith, 
T.C. Lib. 1. ) These Elders did not flourish in Constantine's time: shall we think, that the Bishops in the Council of Nice, when they went about the matter that Paphnutius withstood, did ever intend, that such an Elder or ecclesiastical person (becoming a lay-man again after a year or two,) should upon his choice to that office, from thence forth, not company with his wife which he had married before? It may peradventure be answered, that Christ's order for this annual or biennial change, was through corruption altered, before that Council; and grown to be a continual office. Indeed they may be bold with those times: to speak of them, as they list. But what will you think if now the matter begin to be called in question: whether Geneva first, and then after, whether other their reformed churches of the Low Countries, and of scotlan have done well, in making these Elders but temporal officers, rather than Ministers of the word. Certainly a Learned man of that humour, told me plainly, that both Geneva, and the rest were thought by diverse grave men to have done amiss therein. And peradventure by degrees, you shall see some alteration about that matter. For the brethren of England, in their subscribed Discipline, do begin to make some qualification that way (as it seemeth unto me) when they say: Presbyteri non sunt perpetui, neque tamen facilè moveantur. Let not the Elders be perpetual, nor yet easily removed. They must not be perpetual: but yet; no time is prescribed. So as, they may continue Elders by this rule: through the strength of one ordination, twenty years, if the rest of their company be so pleased. And Carolus Gallus in his book of Discipline is already come to the point: affirming directly, Presbytero Ecclesiae post biennium aut triennium stationem suam deserere non licere: That it is not lawful for an Elder of the Church after two or three years to give over his charge, but must continue the same usque admortem, until his death. Which assertion he taketh upon him to prove, after the manner of these men: by many arguments (such as they are) both out of the old, and new Testament: with whom agreeth Bannosius, 
De polit. civit. dei. etc. 71.  alleging this old Cannon: which provideth Ne bis presbyter ordinetur, et ne quispiam bis baptizetur: That a Priest or Elder be not twice ordained nor any twice baptized. For (saith he) Ordinatio est perpetuae functionis consecratio, quemadmodum baptismus perpetui foederis cum Deo initi est testificatio: Ordination is the consecration of a perpetual function, as baptism is a continual testimony or witness of our League made with God. This surely draweth deeply.  
How it will be taken at his hands I know not. I am persuaded, that whilst Beza liveth: it will never be admitted at Geneva. For so if their twelve Elders did see their authority to be of such continuance: they might peradventure, hold the six ministers noses to the grindstone. Whereas now, they knowing their kingdom, to be of such small continuance, even as they please the ministers: do suffer them to reign and do what they list; fearing what afterclapps might light upon them, the year after: if they should do otherwise. Besides, if they should be offices of such endurance, those princes, noblemen, and gentlemen, that would be content peradventure, for a year to become ecclesiastical persons, amongst them, and execute their office (forsooth) in their own persons: would be twice advised, how they left their other affairs; to attend upon that worshipful service. So as what will be the issue amongst them herein: god knoweth. For my part, I do not: and therefore I will leave them to their consultations, what course they were best to take, for their own credits: & proceed to the qualities, wherewithal they affirm, that their Elders (by the word of god) must needs be endued.   

Chap. XV. Their uncertainty where to find the particular offices of their Aldermen.  
FOr my better entrance into this point following; I will begin with some of their own grounds. Thea government of the church (saith Martin) must be by these officers and offices alone, 
Mart. lib. a.  and by no other: which the Lord hath set down, and limited in his word. And the demonstrator: Corah Datha● and Abiram were punished, having no warrant of that they took in hand. A very good caveat for their Elders. Let us then see, what those particular duties are, which they ascribe unto them. But here you must understand, that every parish is to be divided into several Tribes, according to the number of their Elders: every Elder having one of them assigned unto his charge. 
Out of divers of their books but especially de disc. eccle. fol: 121. The judgement of a learned.  And their office is: if any thing be done amiss privately within their compasses, to reprove or correct the offenders privately: but if the offender be obstinate, or the offence public, they must bring them to the Eldership. Secondly: they must know every house and particular person in the parish, that they may inform the ministers of their estate. If any stranger come to dwell within their several tribes, they must signify the same unto the pastor, that he may examine his religion. Thirdly; 
Beza: de exco: pag. 102. Laws of Geneva.  if any infants are to be baptized, they must likewise give the pastor notice thereof. Fourthly; at the time of the communion, they must all jointly see, that no excommunicate persons, come into the church: likewise help and assist the pastor, (at Geneva the Elder ministereth the cup): take heed that none come to the Lords table, whose religion and honesty should not be known unto them, and with whom the pastor and Doctor, should not have dealt before. In general terms their whole duty is to help, to inform and to aid the pastors and Doctors, & to have a vigilant eye to the observation of all such ceremonies, laws, and orders, as they themselves, with their fellow Senators should constitute and ordain.  
Now surely it were a goodly fight, (& I have occasion, often to repeat it), to see the noblemen, and gentlemen of England, discharging all these duties, in their own persons; and especially, ministering the cup at the holy communion. In what reputation should the ministers be; that should have such eyes, such aiders, such informers▪ What would the people (think, you) say, when they should see these noble men and gentlemen come to the Pastors with their caps in their hands severally, saying: May it please you Sir, there is a stranger come lately to dwell within my Tribe: another, there is a child to be baptized within my tribe: another, this and that fellow are obstinate persons, within my Tribe: and altogether (if they know any that presumed to come to the Communion:) Oh Sir, here is a fellow, you have not spoken withal: and (when I say) the people should see these things etc. on the other side likewise perceive, and hear their Ministers (as I imagine) give a nod with their heads and answer unto them: very well: ye have done your duties, and we commend you for it: bring this: take away that etc., would they not fall down think you, and worship these Rabbis? But you must remember always that they hate superiority. Equality, that is it, which pleaseth them. Indeed they talk of an equality amongst themselves: but otherwise they affect no small superiority over all men beside.  
Well it is meet we should now consider, what proof they have: for all these particular duties, out of the word of God. And here (I pray you) first of all remember, that Beza is brought to this issue: that whether there were any such Elders at all, ever instituted by Moses (from whom they fet them) or not: he hath nothing else to say, but probabile est, it is probable there were such. And much to the same effect it is, that he bringeth for their several offices. For speaking of them especially, besides that he nameth only this one office, (as finding no others in the old Testament): uz. that the duty of the chief rulers of the Synagogues was, non admittere ad Synagogas, quos Hierosolomitanum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 indicasset, 
De excom. pag. 102.  not to admit them to the Synagogues, whom the Council at jerusalem had cast out: he bringeth but this simple demonstration for the proof of it. Horum proculdubio partes fuerunt, out of doubt, it was their parts thus to do: Proculdubio, probabile est: out of doubt, it is probable. Notable proofs. Whosoever will take the pains to read, that part of his Book, de Presbyterio: shall find little else in it, but his probabilities and groundless assertions. Saving that he further saith: there is mention made in the new Testament of governors and ruling Elders, 
Rom. 12. 1. Cor. 12. 1. Tim. 5.  (which we deny with all the ancient fathers to have any relation to their devised Elders,) and thereupon whatsoever hath been thought meet to be the office of rulers, is ascribed belike at Geneva unto them. The treatise is surely unworthy such a man's, as master Beza would be accounted.  
And upon the like conceit also, our English Reformers have taken upon them to set down all the former duties mentioned of their Elders: not that they find them in the word of God, but because they fit their turns, and do account them necessary to set up their own kingdom. For proof whereof, 
De Discipl. eccles. fol. 121  I will only trouble you with one man's authority, but that shall be authentical both with the brotherhood of England, and also with them of Geneva, where the book for the excellency of it hath been reprinted. The author of that book having at large described the said duties, with a kind of so forth, & alia huiusinodi: so as they may add more when they list; the force of truth doth wring from him these words, First that all these said duties, speciatim in Scriptures non exprimantur, are not specially expressed in the Scriptures. Why, then let your Elders remember your former rule: lest for usurping such offices, as they have no warrant for, out of the word of God, they perish with Corah, Dathan and Abiram. Yea but (saith he) though the Scriptures do not express them, yet that there should be such Archrulers with these offices, as were in veteri judoeorum Ecclesia, in the old Church of the jews, it greatly tendeth ad ordinem, decorum, utilitatem & fructum Ecclesi●: to the order decency, profit and fruit of the Church. And what if this be denied▪ or who shall judge whether they be so profitable or not or when will they prove that the duties mentioned, did belong to the Archsynagogians? And yet for all these uncertainties, or (as Cartwrights' term is) mere beggary's, he proceedeth to another Consistorian demonstration.  
There are no other Elders mentioned in the Scriptures, 
Ibidem.  to whont these so profitable duetiés do appertain, but these our Elders: therefore I think they are to be referred to them. I think: Behold he is not certain. There are no other. When shall that be proved? by the coldness of his conclusion, (considering the man's warm disposition:) it seemeth to me, that if the same things might be brought to pass, without these Elders, that they ascribe to their offices, they would not much insist to urge them any longer. Which maketh me to remember the notable Counsel, which Gualther gave to the Bishops of England, 
1574.  in a Letter of his to the Bishop of Ely▪ Where prosecuting certain points of more than popish tyranny, practised by some of his neighbour Consistorians, and commending those in England, that did oppose themselves to the innovators here, he giveth this advi se. Ne tamen hi habeant plausibilem calumniandi occasionem etc. But least your disturbers and unquiet persons may have a plausible occasion of slandering, it is necessary to ordain, by the, Magistrates authority, a Christian means or Discipline for reformation of manners, whereby the Ministers, if their lives be dissolute: the too much liberty of great men, and the corrupt behaviour of the common people may be restrained. Nam si id fiat, non habebunt illi quod quiritentur, nisi apertam Imperij affectationem profiteri velint. For if that be done, those persons shall have no cause to complain; except they will publicly profess the affectation of the Empire.  
It appeareth by divers letters of Gualters, that the present state of the Church of England, is so depraved beyond the seas by these companions amongst us: as that it hath been conceived by godly men, that we had no laws, no good orders, no discipline, but that every man might do what he list: which caused him to give this advise. Whereas if he had known the truth; he would rather have urged the Bishops, to a more careful regard, than hitherto they have had, for the executing of such laws, as we have made to our hands already, then for the making any new. For the best reformed churches in Europe, may cast their caps (as the saying is) in this respect, at England. Which heapeth a greater judgement upon them, that can not be content to live quietly, under the present government: but do so frowardly, so seditiously, & so fond seek to disturb the same: and to bring unto us, they know not what, a counterfeit Chimaera, without either top, or toe, proportionable to that which is pretended.  
But this is by the way. My purpose was to inform you, that for the duties or offices (before so largely ascribed unto their Elders, to be severally by them executed in their particular tribes,) they have no warrant in the word of God: but are driven to silly shifts, their proculdubio, their thinkinges, and (as you have seen,) in effect, to confess as much. So that by their own divinity, those men that dare take upon them such offices: are in danger to perish. Now I will come to those offices, which they affirm they are to execute, with the Pastor and Doctor.   

CHAP. XVI. Of their Alderman's joint-office with the Ministers in the election, abdication, and ordination of Ministers: and of their disagreement about the same.  
THe Elders (saith master Cartwright) are jointly to execute with the Ministers, 
T.C. lib. 1. pag. 183.  election or choice, and the abdication or putting out of Ecclesiastical officers. Tush: why omitteth he ordination▪ 
Demo. cap. 7. junius eccle. fol. 53.  Let it be added out of his demonstrator, and others: to go with the other for company. 
T.C. li. 2. 1. part: p. 274.  Every officer of the church (saith the Demonst.) he must be ordained by the laying on of the hands of the Eldership 
Demo. ca 15. . Indeed here is now good fellowship. The second is: in excommunication of the stubborn, or absolution of the repentant. The third: is the decision of all such matters, as do rise in the church, either touching corrupt manners, or perverse doctrine.  
A man would have thought these Elders had been sufficiently loaden before: but here is a surcharge with a witness. I trust their proofs for these things are very pregnant: or else their presumption will be more than palpable. You must not forget: that whether these Rulers in Moses time, did join with the Priests in the execution of any of their offices, at all or not: Beza though he labour to seek out their first institution, and so to find them, when they were at the best: yet he is driven to his probabile est, for that point: and can go no further that way. Besides, will they say that in the old testament these their Elders, had to do in the electing or choosing of Priests, & so consequently in their deposition? Lay it in them or in their voices: to make new Levites? It is a mockery. Besides: what if their Elderships themselves, have no such authority? shall it not in some sort impair the credit of their Aldermen? Or if the Ministers, the masters of the game be cut short: may not their attendants be contented, though they be somewhat abridged?  

Laws of Geneva.  At Geneva in the election of their Ministers: the council of state, hath in effect a negative voice. For after their Ministers, (upon examination of the party, and hearing of him preach) have thought him a meet man for the ministry: he must again preach before some of the Council: and if the Council like him not, he cannot be chosen, but is repelled. And as the civil magistrate hath there his ordinary authority in the electing of ministers: so hath he (when any of them do incur the danger of law) the like authority, to depose them again from the Ministry. 
Ibid. Artic. 23  This were a disgrace indeed: if our grave Eldership, should be thus overruled. But for their Aldermen, in all that action of both sorts: vz▪ election and abdication: I do not find them, so much as once mentioned by those laws: except they be included, in the name of ministers. And then some of their ministers, are dumb dogs.  
By the decrees of the national Synod at the Hage: the election of ministers, 
Synod Hage Art. 4.  may not be, by the Consistory alone, but the Deacons are also joined in commission with them, and likewise the Classis: or if there be none, than two or three neighbour-ministers. 
Ibid.  And for deposition of any from the ministery: that is, Penes caetum Classicum: belonging to the Classical assembly. It seemeth that the Elders (being more in number in every Eldership than the ministers) began to play false play, and showed some wilfulness: so as now they must in this sort be bridled, with a plurality of more Priestly voices. By which means, though they seem to have some interest in these affairs: yet in effect, it is none at all.  
Furthermore, 
French disc. Art. 4.  it is ordered by the great Synod in France, that a minister may not be chosen, by one only minister with his consistory, but by two or three ministers: or if there be a colloquy, by the colloquy, with the consistory: or else by the provincial Synod, 
Art. 10.  if it may be. But touching the deposition of any: that is reserved only to the provincial Synod. It should seem that in these places, they have not the same word of God, that our men have. Or otherwise, (if our reformers say truly) that election and abdication do belong to the Eldership: and that it is as the sin of Chore, Dathan, and Abiram, for any that are not of the particular Eldership, to intrude themselves, and meddle with the matters which are there to be handled: and so consequently to take upon them to deal in such things, as are not prescribed unto them particularly by the Lord himself. Alas in what great danger are all those Elders, both Classical and Provincial, in swerving so greatly from our men's platform; to the unspeakable prejudice of the presbyterial Aldermen in every particular Eldership. I might here show the silly proofs, which are brought by our reformers out of the new testament, to confirm their judgement. But I have a more fit place for that: So as now I will proceed to that, which followeth of their imposition of hands.  
A man, that is no minister to have an interest in the ordaining of a minister, by imposition of hands: was it ever heard of, by the space of a thousand & five hundred years in the Church of God? The Papists at the first did trouble us much with an objection: that we had no Priests nor Ministers, because we had no Bishops to ordain them. Whereupon answer was made: that a Priest or Minister of the word, and a Bishop was all one: and that Luther, Zwinglius, Oecolampadius, and diverse others being Priests even after the Popish order, had therefore authority to ordain ministers. Mark the reason: because they were Priests. These unpriestly Elders were not then hatched. If they had: the answer would have been thereby much more strengthened. But will these men be constant in this point? Is imposition of hands allowed of, by them at all: 
Lib. 3. pa. 232.  or not? It is the ordinance of God (saith Cartwright) and may not for any abuse be taken away. The Apostles continual observation of imposition of hands, in ordaining of Ministers, 
Instit.  praecepti vice nobis esse debet: ought to be as a precept unto us, (saith master Caluin). And many reasons are brought by the Demonstrator, 
Demonst. cap. 7. & 9 Disc. ecc. so. 53.  and Traverse: for the proof and profit of the continuance of it. Indeed the old doctrine hath been, no ordination by imposition of hands, no minister. But all this will not serve the turn: away it must. We are oft called to the example of Scotland: and there the Discipline is so purely practised, that imposition of hands (as a fruitless ceremony) is quite and clean banished thence. Hear the history of the Church of scotlan published in the name of their ministery. 
Hist. of the Church of Scotl. pa. 557.  Albeit the Apostles used imposition of hands (in the ordaining of Ministers) yet seeing the miracle is ceased: the using of the ceremony, we judge it not necessary.  
And what ceremony have they instead thereof? Surely if I understand them, such a one: as good fellows do use, when they meet at the alehouse: They take them by the hands: and bid them heartily welcome into their society. junius who is charged by Thyreus to neglect the Apostolical order of imposition of hands, doth call this Scottish new order, or where else so ever it is used, (if it be used in any other place) porrectionem dextr●e societatis in caetu presbyterorum, a giving forth of the right hand of society in the assembly of the Elders. Master Caluin is dead. And therefore, too them, Cartwright, with your scholars. Will you suffer your own crew, to tread down gods ordinance in this sort under their feet? or if they do well therein: out with it presently forth of your books. But you may not (as one said) yield in any thing: for fear of discrediting the rest of your devices. 
Hart. to Field:  It is well. Defend yourself then and your scholars as well as you can: in that you make imposition of hands a joint duty to be performed by the Eldership; that is, as well by your only ruling Elders, as by the ministers of the word.  
For Master Caluin will not endure it; but showeth himself to be of a contrary opinion, & doth withal extort the only place you account of in effect, for your purpose out of your hands, as altogether insufficient to serve your turns. Hoc postremo habendum est, non universam multitudinem manus imposuisse suis ministris: 
C●l. inst. lib. 4. Cap. 3. sect. 16.  sed solos pastors etc. This also is to be understood, that the whole multitude did not lay their hands upon their ministers: but the pastors only. What is become then of these unpastoral Aldermen? Quanquam incertum est an plures semper manus imposuerunt nec ne. 
Ibd.  Although (saith he) it is uncertain, whether more than one did always impose their hands or not.  
This is much: only ministers, and uncertain whether one or many? Bring out your evidence Master Cartwright. But in the mean while give ear to Master Caluins' reasons. 
Ibid.  It appeareth (saith he) that divers pastors did lay their hands upon the Deacons: Paul, and Barnabas: and some other. 
2. Tim. 1.  Sed Paulus ipse alibi se, non alios complures, Timotheo manus imposuisse commemorat etc. But Paul in an other place reporteth, that he himself alone without any other, did lay his hands upon Timothy. But now he pincheth the brotherhood. 
1. Tim. 4.  Nam quod in altera epistola de impositione manuum presbtyerij dicitur etc. For that which is spoken in his other epistle of the imposition of the hands of the Eldership: 
Ibid.  none it a accipio quasi de Seniorum collegio loquatur etc. I take it not as though Paul did speak of the college of Elders: but by these words I understand the ordination itself: as though he had said: Fac ut gratia, quam per manuum impositionem recepisti cum te presbyterum creavi, non sit irrita. See that the grace which thou receivedst by imposition of hands, when I created thee a priest: be not in vain. Now that this place is thus wrested from you: all the pack of you bring one other out of the new testament: for your unsanctified Alderman's imposition of hands. Nay you see already, that Tottenham is almost turned into french: and there is nothing, why our Bishops might not, for any thing that they themselves do bring to the contrary, use imposition of hands.  
Besides, all our reformers shifts in one respect are hereby cut of. For when we ever alleged for our Bishop's authority in this point, the example of Saint Paul: who saith that Timothy was made priest, by the imposition of his hands: they still would tell us (but of their own heads without any further warrant) that he did not so, as by his own authority, but in the name of the Eldership. Which cannot in any wise be true: for that which may be done in their names, may be done by themselves. In that therefore, they might not do it themselves: they could not depute it to the Apostle. So as it remaineth that he did it, by his own authority: or at the least, in the name of the rest, that were ministers of the word; which will not agree with our men's platform. If here exception be taken to Caluin, as that in some other of his writings, he is of an other mind: you must be advertised, that he beginning to write betimes, did in divers things upon better advise change his opinion. And therefore in one of his epistles, desireth those that will read his works, that they would first take the pains to read his institutions; as containing in them, (for those things there set down) his very mind and settled judgement. But what if Beza do in sort agree herein with Caluin? 
Beza. Anno.  Surely if I understand him: he doth. For upon these words: Come impositione manuum presbyterij id est (saith he) ordinis presbyterorum: qu● nomine caetus omnis ille significatur, qui in verbo laborabat in ea ecclesia: that is the order of Priests or Elders: by which name all that company is signified which did labour in the word in that Church. Disburden then for shame, your counterfeit Aldermen, of this joint-dutie in your Eldership: or at the least, let them rest, until you be better resolved amongst yourselves, how to employ them: lest you bring them within the compass of the punishment of Corah, Dathan, and Abiram, as I have said before.   

CHAP. 17. Of their Alderman's joint office with the ministers, in binding, and losing of sins, and of their disagreement therein.  

T.C. lib. 1.183 Beza Daneus and the rest.  COncerning their pretended authority, equal with their ministers, (for their proceedings are by voices:) in excommunication of the stubborn, and absolution of the repentant, will they trouble themselves, (think you) with any testimonies out of the old testament? Indeed they affirm, that these censures, were resembled there; by the authority of discerning bettwene the clean and the unclean, between the holy & unholy, of shutting up the leprous, and releasing them, of purging the unclean, of cursing (resembling bindding:) of blessing (resembling losing &c.) And be it so. But where is there mention in any such places, that your pretended Elders, had any authority to intermeddle with these matters? Are they not, throughout the whole old testament; evermore ascribed to Aaron and his sons? Nay, might any that were of other tribes, then of the tribe of Levi deal heerwithal? Speak frankly & truly: might they so? Beza could find no answer to this question, but Probabile est, it is probable they might: whereas I am persuaded, there are few assertions of greater absurdity▪ or of less probability. For the Levites themselves, that were not of the sons of Aaron: had nothing to do in these things.  

Discip. eccl. fol. 127.  Travers defininge what suspension is: saith: it is a commandment or prohibition of an Elder, of abstaining for a certain time from the receiving of the Sacraments. For the proof whereof, 
Ibid.  he groundeth himself upon this shadow, (as he termeth it): That by the law the unclean and uncircumcised were prohibited the celebrating of the Passeover, & entrance into the Temple. Which caused (saith he) joiada the priest to appoint certain porters to the gates of the Temple. By which testimonies what he else proveth; then, that his Elders were of the number of these Porters; I find not. 
Beza de presb. pag. 102.  And that surely agreeth best, with Bezaes' opinion mentioned. Horum proculdubio partes erant etc. It was out of doubt the duty of the Archrulers of the Synagogues, not to admit excommunicated persons into the Synagogues.  
With which offices, if they of that consort, will be content to enfeoff their Aldermen, and go no further: I see no cause, why any man should greatly envy them that preferment. But when from dorekeepers they must be so advanced, as that they must be abdicators and comforters, as they term them: that is more, then upon such weak collections is fit to be allowed of. For where they give them these joint offices with the Minister, of abdicating the stubborn, and of consolation of the repentant, if they would speak out, it is as much as though they should say: that they have equal authority with them, of suspension and excommunication, of binding and losing, of retaining and remitting of sins. No no, they may send them to Parishgarden, to lose and bind bears, for they are far unmeet to have any such authority over men's souls. That those which were not Bishops, or Priests (that is ministers of the word and sacraments) should have that authority (which they speak of), is a matter that was never heard of, in the Church of God for a 1500. years. Cartwright in handling this point, was able to bring for his purpose, but one pertinent authority, in show, out of all the ancient Fathers: uz. out of Tertullian, of certain Precedents, that shut offenders from prayers in the Congregation: which precedents as he well knoweth, the same Tertullian saith expressly, in an other place, were Ministers of the word and sacraments: in these words, (speaking of the lords supper) : Nec de aliorum manu quàm presidentium sumimus, neither do we receive at the hands of any other, but of the governors.  
It is worthy the consideration, to see into what extremities, men do commonly fall; that will presume to build the Church upon the straw and stubble, of their own devices. All the world cannot persuade the papists, but that the keys of the kingdom of heaven, were only given to Peter, and so to his successors; and that from him the rest of the Apostles were to receive them, and so must their successors from the Pope. Against whom, we insist, with the ancient Fathers; that what was said to Peter, 
Math. 16. joh. 20.  appertained to them all: as namely for one reason; in that, where the keys were promised to Peter: tibi dabo, I will give them to thee: when this promise was performed, Christ gave them unto all the Apostles alike, and to their successors: Whose sins ye remit they shall be remitted, and whose sins ye retain they shall be retained: which is the true use of the keys. Now who are to be termed the Apostles successors, if we will believe the said ancient Fathers, that were in my opinion as honest, and learned men, as those that oppose themselves against them? we must confess, that they were at the least Ministers of the word and sacraments, and so we have pleaded in this cause against the papists.  
But now on the other side, the world is so come about: that whereas the papists do give the keys but to Peter only, and so to the Pope: where the ancient fathers do give them to all the Apostles equally, and so to their successors, ministers (as I said) at the least: now these new start-ups, will needs thrust their aldermen into that number, and they must be also the Apostles successors. If men will be seduced wilfully by such falseteachers: 
Confess. cap 5 sect. 43.  they may. What a ridiculous saying is this of Bezaes'? That: In persona Apostolorum, the keys were given, Omnibus veris presbyteris, to all true Priests or Elders, including in that number his unpriestlie Eldermen. Again upon these words of christ: 
nont., Math. 16.19.  the keys etc. Hac metaphorica locutione significatur oeconomi potestas (Esa 22▪ 22.) qua funguntur omnes ministri in ecclesia dei ut apparet infra. 18▪ 18. By this metaphorical speech is signified that power of Christ mentioned in Esay, the key of the house of David I will lay upon his shoulders: lo he shall open and no man shall shut, and he shall shut and no man shall open: which power all the Ministers in the Church of God do enjoy, as it appeareth in Matthew: Whatsoever ye bind in earth shall be bound in heaven, 
Annot. math. 18.17, 18.  and whatsoever ye lose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 
De excom. pa. 61.  And upon that place of Matthew the 18▪ Chapter, and in many other places; by the Church, and those binder's and losers there spoken of, he understandeth his Eldership, & so consequently aswell his Aldermen, as the Ministers of the word. He that with an open face (to use Cartwrightes term) doth affirm that either in Matthew the 16. 15. or in the place of Esay mentioned, these unpreaching Elders were meant or prefigured: needeth not (I warrant him) at any time a vizard.  
Indeed master Cartwright is not of Bezaes' mind herein. For, (saith he) in Math. 16. and in joh. 20. Christ under standeth that every one of the ministers, 
Lib. 3. pag. 83.  bindeth & looseth by preaching: but the words Math. 18.18. cannot be drawn to the particular person of the minister. Surely you have spun a fair thread. For if your Aldermen, be not aswell understood in the words of Christ: Unto thee I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven: as in these: Whatsoever ye bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatsoever ye lose on earth shall be loosed in heaven: It will fall out that they will have no keys either to open or shut withal: except peradventure you will make your locks with a springe, and so indeed they may shut the door: but for opening of it they may blow their nails.  
Hear you see Beza and Cartwright opposite: and now you shall have a fellow to impugn them both, in a Theological position printed at Geneva, set out by Ant. Fayus and maintained there by one Danyell Niellius, 
Thes. theolo: pag. 243.  out of Math. 16.19. thus (saith he) we may reason. To them only the power of binding and losing is given, unto whom the keys of the kingdom of heaven are given (for to have binding and losing is that same, that it is, to have▪ the keys of the kingdom of heaven): but unto Peter the keys were given, and unto them in whose name Peter answereth, Christ demanding whom the jews said he was. And because they were given ratione officij, in regard of his office: it followeth, that they were given to all, qui in veritatis doctrina predicanda sunt ipsis successuri: Who in preaching the doctrine of truth shall succeed them. By these words then, their disguised Aldermen must either have assigned unto them, the same office that the Apostles had, & be made preachers, or else they may put up their pipes, and go shake their ears. 
Thes. Cene●.  But yet more plainly we are advertised, in the same place from Geneva, out of john, 20.23. We may also infer after this sort; Christ after he sent his Apostles as he was sent of the father, he breathed on them the holy Ghost, saying whose sins ye remit, they shall be remitted: whose sins ye retain, they shall be retained. To all them therefore, and only to them who are sent, that authority is given: But the Apostles only are not sent. For it is Christ, who ascending into heaven, gave to his Church Pastors, and Doctors: and altogether to that end, and for handling that work. Ephes. 4.11.13. Now, join both these inferences, with that which Beza & Cartwright have before set down: and let him (for me) bear the bell, for a reconciler of contrarieties, that is able in any probable sort to make any one of them, friends with another, or for ever hereafter to agree together.  
And yet I know, that they of Geneva can do much. You must bring them very strange discords, but they will make some harmony of them. Whereas the confessions of Bohemia, of Augusta, and the Apology of the Church of England, do a cribe these censures (we speak of) to the Priests or Ministers of the word only: the Genevians, to make the world believe, that (in effect) all the reformed Churches, do agree with that of theirs, and with those other, that wear her colours; will needs take upon them in their annotations, (joined to the end of their harmony), to expound the meaning of the said confessions, & how they must be rightly understood. 
Harmonia. Sect. 2.  As for example, it is committed to the ministers of the word● (saith the confession of Augusta): excludere impios, etc. a●communione ecclesiae: to exclude the wicked, etc. from the communion of the church. Nimirum: that is to say: (affirm the Genevians) ex presbiterij legitimè congregati fententia, etc. according to the sentence of the Eldership lawfully assembled, whereas it never as yet set up any such Eldership.  
Again, the said confession. Hic necessario, etc. here the Church must yield them due obedience, 
Ibidem.  meaning to the said ministers, so excluding the wicked: Nempe (come in the Genevians) verbi ministris, & senioribus, (that is to say) to the Ministers of the word, and to the Elders: who were never allowed of by that confession to this purpose pretended. The Apology of the Church of England, having showed that the administration of the keys, doth only belong to ministers of the word, and that Sacerdos, that is, the Bishop, (as I think he meaneth) for the execution of these censures, is the judge: Sacerdos, that is (say the Genevians) unus designatus ex pastorum collegio: one chosen out of the College of Pastors: 
Ibidem.  Deinde etiam intelligiturpraeire (quum de censuris ecclesiasticis agitur) leg●tinam presbyterij cognitionem: And furthermore also, let it be understood, when speech is of the ecclesiastical censure, that there goeth before a lawful determination of the Eldership. Whether the Apology, have that meaning, the meanest of any sense at all, may judge. And thus they deal also, with the Bohemian confession. So that (as I said) to serve their purposes, they can make ex quo libet, quid libet, of any thing, what they list. And by these examples, ye may also safely learn, what credit is to be given in this cause, both to them, and all the rest of that humour: when they would seem to allege either scriptures, Counsels, or Fathers, for their most unwarrantable, and counterfeit Aldermen.  
But if it were granted unto them, for a month or two, that their Eldermen should be joined, with the ministers of the word: and have an equal authority with them, of binding and losing: would they content themselves therewithal▪ It is certain that the Barrowists would not: and not they only, but even some others of a little better credit, than any of our English butchers: who will needs have the people to have in effect, as great an interest, in the execution of the Church censures, as all the rest, both ministers and Eldermen. Thus Vrsinus writeth hereof. Fiat excommunicatio, &c: Let excommunication be done, by the consent and authority of the whole Eldership, 
Expla. para. 3. pag. 350.  & ecclesiae, and of the Church: not of the Church alone, nor of the Ministers or presbytery alone. For this power is not given by Christ to a few, or to Ministers only (although the administration and execution of it, is committed oftentimes to few, or to one Minister) sed toti ecclesiae, but to the whole Church. If he will not hear them and others tell the Church. Potentes dominantur, vos autem non sic. Princes bear rule like Lords: but you may not do so. The consent therefore of the Church is to be required. 1. Because it is Christ's commandment. 2. For the authority of the action. 3. That no man be injuried. 4. Lest the Ministry should be changed into an Oligarchy, or Popish tyranny. Thus far Vrsinus.  
In whose judgement you see, the Eldership is to be charged already, though it be but newly set up, with the same faults that are imputed to our church-government, by the brotherhood amongst us: that is, with the alteration of Christ's institution, with lordliness, and with a Popish tyranny, etc. So as, by this devise, the people are to be understood in the person of the Apostles, as well as their Elders: and the one hath no more authority to bind and loose, than the other. But nothing will content them long. Give them the head, & every year will bring forth a new platform. It will not be enough for master Beza to say: Neque enim eis assentior, 
Conf. cap. 5. sect 43.  qui non nisi totius ecclesiae, etc. I do not agree with them, who will not have any man excommunicated, but by the consent of the whole Church, and of every man particularly. For Christ hath given this authority, sani judicij hominibus, to men of sound judgement: that is to the college of Elders, according to the manner of the jews. Vrsinus, and those that are of his opinion, will answer: that the rest of the Church, are not of their wits: that it is but his pride, and his Elders presumption, to take so much upon them: that they would be Lords over their brethren: and (for the place of Matthew:) that they know Christ's meaning, aswell as he, and all that take his part.  

T.C. lib. 1. pag. 183.  Of the third joint office, that Cartwright saith doth●belong unto his pretended Elders, to be executed jointly with the ministers, (as it was touched in the beginning of the 16. chapter.) I shall have a more fit place to speak, in the 22.23.24. and 25. chapters following.   

CHAP. XVIII. Of the first institution of the old Deacons: and of the disagreement, about the new disciplinary Deacons.  
IN the apostles times, when after Christ's ascension, they began to preach in jerusalem: such was the charity of those, that professed the Gospel: that many of them, sold all, or the most part, of that which they had, and brought the price of it to the Apostles feet. The especial reason that moved them, (as I take it) so to do: was this. The greatest part, that (at the first) did follow the Apostles, 
1. Cor. 1.  were of the poorer sort. Who upon their new embracing of that so comfortable a doctrine, did give over themselves, to the careful meditation, and thoroughly learning of it: leaving their trades, (though not altogether, yet surely as I suppose for the most part,) until (at the least) that they grew to be more fully instructed therein. To the which purpose, they kept as much together, with the Apostles, as possibly they could, and had their holy assemblies, their exhortations, prayers, and the administration of Baptism, secretly in private houses, for fear of the Magistrates. Now (as I said) the most of these being poor men, and the Apostles themselves having nothing to live upon: When any of the richer sort did join themselves, to that meeting or congregation: they sold such things as they had, or thought meet, and brought the price of it unto the Apostles: not only for their own maintenance, but committed the distribution of it, unto them, for the relief also of the rest that wanted, and were not able to provide for themselves, those things that were necessary.  
This charge, as well for the said religious exercises in their private assembly, as for this distribution equally to be made, as the occasions required: the Apostles took upon them more particularly for a short time, than they did afterward: uz. until the number of Christians in jerusalem increased from 120. unto five thousand at the least, and did grow daily more and more: so as they were (as I think) constrained to have diverse Congregations. And then because they found it to be some hindrance, unto the execution of their general Commission, for (the further dispersing of the Gospel:) they caused seven men to be chosen, 
Acts 6.  such as were known to be of honest report, and full of the holy Ghost, and wisdom: Unto whom that business was more specially committed. Who thenceforth might not only according to their honesty and discretion, take into their hands, such money, as should be brought, from time to time, to the godly disposed, for the purpose mentioned: but also in the Apostles absence, agreeably with the fullness of the holy Ghost, (whereby they held, the mystery of faith in a pure conscience) were to teach, 
1. Timo. 3.  to comfort, to move, to confirm in the faith the brethren, in their particular congregations or meetings: and likewise to offer their common prayers in all their names unto the Lord, and to baptize the children of the faithful.  
For the Apostles in appointing of these new officers, had as well regard to the Souls of the people, as to their bodies. And because at that time, (which was the infancy and first spring of the Church) there were not such meet men, as might be made Priests, or (as they term them now a days) preaching Elders: it pleased the Apostles, to have them trained up in that exercise, and to make the office of Deacons, a degree and a step to the fullness of Priesthood. 
1. Tim▪ 3.  Which is expressed by Saint Paul, when he saith of Deacons: qui bene ministrant, gradum bonum sibi acquirent: they that minister well, shall purchase to themselves a good degree. And this order or office of Deacons, being thus (as you have heard) first instituted at Hierusalent: was afterward upon the same occasions, and for the same ends ordained in other Churches: where, always they executed, all the parts mentioned of their offices: so long as the Church●s continued, wherein they were placed. Or if it happened, (as it did after in jerusalem) that their Churches were dispersed, so as contributions & collections ceased: yet they continued, their preaching, their exhorting, and confirming, of the we●ke brethren: their baptizing of children, & the rest of the duties mentioned, as they might be suffered and accepted of, wheresoever they came. Examples of such Deacons and offices, as here I have spoken of, we have in the scriptures delivered to us by S. Luke, 
Act. 8 6.7.  where he setteth down the actions of Steven and Philip, both of them Deacons, how they preached: how Philip baptised, and what is said of any one of them; must be understood of the rest. Unto these examples, and for the further proof of these premises: I might add the general consent of all the ancient Fathers, and the ordinary practice of all Churches, either in their times, or since: especially, for the continual practice, of the Priestly part of the Deacons office.  
But as in times of dispersion, they could not execute the other part, consisting in collections & distributions: so afterwards, God blessed his Church in such sort, that indeed it needed not. For when great men, Lords, Princes, Kings and Emperors, had embraced the doctrine of Christ, so as men had the Gospel brought (as it were) home to their doors, and might frequent (with commendation) the public assemblies, and practise of religion, and withal, follow their own trades, and particular callings more diligently: when also the said great men, Lords, Princes, and Emperors, (besides many other well disposed Christians) had provided for the ministers, and for the poor sufficient maintenance, for the one, partly by the tithes, which are due unto them, and partly by other gifts, according to their places: and for the other, (that is, the poor) by setting them on work, (such as were able) & by providing of hospitals, and such like means (for those that were impotent) that part of the Deacons office, became, to be in time superfluous. And since, they have applied themselves to the more material part of their office, whereby they might obtain the other good degree of Priesthood.  
With these points, I thought good to acquaint you: before I came to the Disciplinary conceits, about Deacons. For even now, as though there were no provision made, either for the ministry, or for the poor: they are most instant, for (I know not) what kind of Deacons. But as therein they have cut off themselves from the truth: so are they at great disagreement one with another. Our English reformers are all of them peremptory, that we must have such Deacons, as (they imagine) were in the Apostles times. But the Genevian ministers, do think their platform of discipline to be the paragon of the world, although they have no such Deacons in it. There is in Geneva an Hospital, whereof there are four Proctors and overseers, and these four are with them in steed of Deacons. For otherwise they have not so much as the name of Deacons there. By which rule (if we shall square the pretended discipline) we have such officers already, as may serve our turns for Deacons, uz. Proctors of Spitle-houses, masters and overseers of hospitals, as sufficient, honest, and fit men, to execute their places: as there is any (I assure myself) in Geneva. But peradventure the matter which they shoot at, is this. They would have an Hospital in every parish. And yet there is no such thing at Geneva. In all their whole Territory, they have but one hospital.  
Well, let Geneva therein do what it list: our men will needs have another kind of Deacons: & what kind is that? Surely no such kind as was in the Apostles times. 
Admonit. 1. T. C. lib. 1. T. C. lib. 2. Beza count Saravia. ca 7.  But they know not indeed what they would have. The Deacons which our men do require, must not intermeddle (for a 1000 li.) with any part of the office that belongeth to a minister. Their deaconship in no case may be reckoned to be a step to the ministry. How beit some other men, as wise & as learned as they are, do hold a contrary opinion. First, all the ancient fathers are generally against them, in both the points mentioned, & so is the practice of the church of God, ever since the Apostles times. All the learned men in Germany (for aught I find) that maintain the Augustane confession, are against them. Yea what if some of their chief Captains be against them? 
Discipl. of France. Of Deacons.  The Deacons in France, were once within these few years, allowed to catechize publicly in their reformed Congregations. And as yet, one part of their office is to go through families, and to catechize them at home privately. To be a Catechist, with our men, is the especial duty of their Doctor: whom they make a Minister of the word. So as then, there is no more difference in that respect, betwixt their Doctoral minister, and the French Deacons: saving that the one doth catechize publicly, and the other privately.  
If all this be nothing: then let us hear Beza; the consistorial oracle: who turneth himself into every man's colours. Truth is mighty: and driveth men to their shifts, when having rashly overshot themselves, they will still (to maintain their credits) impugn it. 
Beza con. Sat. cap. 7.  Hear him, (I pray you) how he playeth his prize. It is (saith he) absurd, to think that Deacons had the office of preaching committed unto them. But in his confessions thus: 
Conf. cap. 5. Apho. 25.  The office of pastors and Doctors, is to preach and say prayers: under which duties I do comprehend, the administration of the sacraments, and the blessing of marriages (according to the perpetual use of the Church) although oftentimes Deacons did supply these things, instead of the Pastors. Again. 
Beza con. Sar. cap. 7.  The fathers and late writers, who supposed that the office of preaching did belong to Deacons, decepti sunt, were deceived. But in his annotations upon the 1. of Tim. 3.9. (That the Deacons must hold the mystery of faith) thus: Diaconorun enim erant nonnullae etiam in docendo parts, quoties necesse fuisset, ut ex Stephano et Philippo apparet: the Deacons had also some thing to do in teaching, when it was needful: as by the example of Steven and Philip it is manifest.  
Again: in his book against D. Saravia; finding himself, (as I suppose) to be prejudiced by his said annotation, or having been reproved for it by Cartwright etc. or fearing some inconvenience, that might ensue thereof; he would gladly get him some starting hole. Cartwright, to aviode the example of Steven the Deacon, saith in effect; that he was no preacher, but an Apologizer. But Beza, hath not learned that evasion, as yet. He hath another: 
Cont. Sar. c. 7,  which is indeed, as good as none at all. Stephen the Deacon (saith he) although he was most worthy to be apreacher: yet in that he was only a Deacon in the Church of jerusalem, he is not said to have taught in the Church: but in the Synagogues of the jews. As it is now constantly held; our Church▪ assemblies, are the same in effect, that the jews Synagogues were. So as then, belike Deacons may not preach in Cathedral churches, (which I resemble to the temple of Jerusalem) but they may preach in Country parishes. One of the places which Beza allegeth to show the manner of Stephens teaching in the Synagogue, is the Example of Christ; where he took a place of Esayas, 
Luke 4.  and expounded the same in the Synagogue at Nazareth. If a man may say that Christ, did then preach: the same may also be affirmed of Stephen, when (as Beza saith) he taught in the Synagogues of the jews. Whilst you hear Beza driven thus to his shifts: do you not imagine, that if his case in this point were good, he could defend it better?  
But now, as concerning Cartwrightes confident assertion, that the Deaconship is not to be made a step to the ministery. Besides the said ancient fathers, & continual practice of the church for 1500. years: the chief learned men of Helvetia, 
Bullinger: Gualther. Hemingiu●.  & Denmark are flatly against him, where they entreat of this place of the Apostle: He that ministereth well, shall purchase to himself, a good degree. Alexander Alexius a Scottishman; though in some sort he be a Consistorian, yet he is also against him. For writing upon the same place: They shall get to themselves a good degree: that is, (saith he) digni iudicabuntur officio Episcopi: they shall be judged worthy the office of a Bishop. But Bezaes' pretty apish toy, I could not chose but laugh at; in this place. He seethe the stream of all antiquity to run for this step to the ministery: insomuch (as I am persuaded) that neither he nor all the pack of his adherents, are able to show, that there was ever any one minister since the Apostles times, (till now of late) but first he was a deacon: & therefore to come as near the truth as he can, & miss it, he saith, that in Geneva, when they choose any to the ministery, they ever prefer their Deacons being meet men, before any other, of whom they have not so good experience. So as there, to be one of the 4. proctor's of their spittlehouse, is one good means to get into their ministry. But I will leave these spittlehouse-deacons, to climb as they can into their Consist. Bishoprics; & come to another manner of deacons, that would be hardly induced to be thrust either into a spittlehouse, or accept of the ministery.  
It appeareth in the 10 Chapter, how providently it is ordered at Geneva, that none but counsellors of the state, can be any Aldermen of their grand presbytery: & likewise how Beza a duiseth all other Churches, that will receive their holy platform, to endeavour as much as they can: that Noblemen & princes may take that office upon them. Which order & advise is thought to be of such importance (as it seemeth) for the glory of their Eldership, that our English discourser, hath thought it meet to extend the same, in some sort to the choice of their Deacons. Every ignorant contemptible person (saith he) is not to be allowed to this office (of Deacons): 
Dis. pag 110.  but as godly, wise, and worshipful, as may conveniently be found in the Congregation, may not think themselves too good to minister unto Christ in his members, and in the name of the Church. Away then with these base Artisans, that have dreamt peradventure, that if the Discipline were up, they should be (I know not what): away with them I say; these Tailors, Shoemakers, Mercers, Drapers, and such like ignorant and contemptible persons: and give place to your betters, the wise and worshipful Gentlemen of the parish. Indeed where great Lords and Princes are Elders: forasmuch as Deacons may chance sometimes to be joined in Commission with them: It is very meet they should be men of worship. But yet me thinketh all the parts of this Senate; are not fully suitable. For where the Deacons are men of worship: where the Elders are Noblemen and Princes: what must the Pastors and doctors be? Surely if proportion be kept: they must be some body: the Doctor a king, and the Pastor an Emperor.  
What needed the learned Discourser then to suspect▪ that peradventure some men would be loath to take the office of Deacons upon them: when they should be matched in this sort, with such worthy and honourable Colleagues. A great preferment no doubt for any aspiring mind; and few gentlemen (ye may be sure) will refuse it. But yet his suspicion, doth rise of some thing. For what if these gentlemen Deacons, when their Pastors, Doctors, and their Noblemen-elders, were consulting together; should be thrust out of the doors, notwithstanding their worships? I tell you truly that point is not yet resolved. Bertrand de Loques a French Disciplinarian, affirmeth: 
Bert. of the Church. c. 14.  that although the Consistory is indeed composed of the Pastors and Elders: Yet the Deacons are received into it so far forth, and in as much as they shall judge it to be expedient and profitable: to advise, give counsel, & consider of the censures, and of that which is requisite & necessary for the guiding and government of the Church. Well: this is some thing for the Deacons: but the ancient Council of Hage, which was held (as it hath been said) in the year 1586. 
Concil. Hage Canon 35.  hath gone much further. For there it is decreed : That in those places, where there are but few Elders, Consistorio Diaconi adiungentur, the Deacons shall be adjoined unto the Consistory. Before they were to expect, until they might be received into the Consistory: but now they are of it. Before they were but only to give advise; but now being of it, they must have their voices in it.  
But what should I insist upon such paltry proofs? You shall hear a Canon of the Ecclesiastical discipline in France, resolved upon (I know not) by how many Synods, at Paris, Poitiers, Orleans, Lions, etc. There it is set down for a Law in this sort: The Elders and Deacons do make the ecclesiastical Senate or consistory: 
Dis. of France. of the Consist.  wherein the ministers of the word sit as chief. And with this French decree, the authors of the second admonition here in England do fully accord. Where they assure the high Court of Parliament 1572▪ 
Admonitio 2.  that the whole regiment of the Church, is committed jointly to the ministers, Elders, and Deacons. Thus far then the matter runneth well: for our worshipful Deacons. Howbeit: now hear, what is said to the contrary.  
You have heard how the said Counsels, and admonitioners have joined the ministers, Elders, and Deacons together: but now in cometh another sort, and they will needs disjointe them. It would hardly be endured by the Ministers of Geneva, to have one of the proctor's of their hospital, to sit (by virtue of that office) cheek by jowl with Beza. And therefore the general resolution of all that are there; is quite against the Deacons, in that behalf. Beza in his treatise against Erastus, 
Beza de presb. Beza Epist. 85.  and else where, doth allow of none to be of the Presbytery; but Ministers and Elders. Cartwright and all the rest of our reforming sconces (except the said Admonitioners) do wholly therein agree likewise, with Beza: So as I shall not trouble you with any further allegation to this purpose, saving one: and that you shall have: because it containeth in it, not the judgement only of any particular man; but is the full resolution of Cartwright, and all his crew here in England; contained in a certain book of Discipline, whereunto the chiefest of them have subscribed: The presbytery (saith that book) is an assembly or senate of elders. By the name of elders are meant, ministers of the word, and those that are properly called Elders. They mean such as in their place I have spoken of. Here than you have that Deacons are of the presbytery: and that they are not of the presbytery. Choose, which side you will believe: I think they are bewitched. If I might advise you: believe them both alike.  
But some will peradventure say, that it maketh no great matter, whether side hath the truth: that the point betwixt them is of no importance: and that I am too blame, to make so much of nothing. Whereunto I answer, that if there be any who shall so conceive: he is not well acquainted with the depth of this matter. For indeed it worketh a marvelous alteration in the Deacons office. Admit them to have their places and voices in the Consistories: and then their authority is grown to be very great. Then they have equal right with their pastors and Doctors, to ordain ministers by imposition of their hands. Then, the forgiving and retaining of sins: doth appertain unto them. Then they are become the Apostles successors; and do carry the keys of the kingdom of heaven aswell as any of the rest. 
Cart. etc. new discipline.  For in Consistorio standum maioris partis sententiae: In the consistory men must stand to the sentence of the greater part. One man's voice there, is as good as an others. And so in all other matters, that do belong to the Consistory, and which are to be executed there, jointly by them all together; the Deacons bear sway & have a stroke with the best of them. Whereas on the otherside, if they be excluded out of the Consistory: (as Beza & our men would have them:) than they have nothing at all to do with any of these matters: but are restrained, & drawn into a more narrow compass: & must content themselves, to be either proctor's of hospitals, or else collectors & distributers of the people's devotion to the poor. And therein also they are subject to great controlment. For as the laws & certain grounds of Geneva, affirm: (& therefore also commonly so held elsewhere) Diaconorun administratio, 
Thes. Geneu.  pastorum inspectioni est obnoxia: the deacons administration is under the oversight of the pastors.  
It is true, 
Beza count Sar. Cap. 7.  th●t Beza is pleased, to allow the deacons, a little more scope, than hitherto I have mentioned. And that is: that in the celebration of the lords supper, they may by their office carry the cup to the communicants. M. Cartwright goeth a little further, and telleth us also, that they may likewise distribute the bread. In all reformed Churches almost (saith he) the Deacons do assist the minister, in helping of him to distribute the cup, 
T.C. lib 1: pag 61.  & in some places also the bread. If none would be angry with me: I would gladly ask this question: uz. why the Deacons might not aswell help the minister to baptize, and to distribute the word, as well as the lords supper? But, as I said before of the Noblemen Elders, so do I also of our worshipful Deacons. What a sight were it to see a justice of peace, peradventure in his velvet cloak, his chain of gold, and such correspondent attire, as is agreeable to that calling; delivering to the people (that I may speak of so holy a sacrament, sacramentally) the most blessed body and blood of our Saviour Christ? And yet I allow the sight as reasonable, as to see the proctor of a Spittlehouse executing of that charge. Peradventure it will here be said again; that if there be any deformity in the beholding of either of these sights, it is not in them; but in the beholders. For they are ecclesiastical persons, as soon as they are made Deacons. And then why doth it not belong unto them: to deal in ecclesiastical causes? It is well objected. That point indeed would not be omitted.  
It is generally agreed upon amongst them (I confess) that their new found halfe-partie Deacons, are ecclesiastical persons. For our Counter-poisoner saith : That whosoever are called (as you must understand their Deacons are) to bear office in the Church, 
Count. pa. 130  with due examination and trial, and with the consent of those, to whom it appertaineth; and are with fasting and prayers, or with prayers only, and with imposition of hands, separated or put a part to that office: they are all Ecclesiastical persons, and not lay men, as they term them. Surely, if our Noble men, were once become Elders, and our chiefest Gentlemen Deacons: and so both the sorts of them, Ecclesiastical persons: what a clergy should we have in England? Now there is no one calling, in the whole common wealth, that is grown, to be more contemptible with many, than the calling of Clergy men. But that would soon be recovered, when such men of estimation, should be in the account of Ecclesiastical persons. There was an old saying. Soluat Ecclesiae, let every man pay to the Church. Which now is altered, and made answerable to the humour that now reigneth. Soluat Ecclesia, let the Churchmen pay for it. And indeed, if we had such Elders and Deacons, to be of the number of us, that are Churchmen and Ecclesiastical persons: we might surely pay well for it. At the least if their tenths & subsidies should be in all respects rateable to ours. And there were no reason, that the Pastors and Doctors, men so far in degree above the Elders and Deacons, should find less favour, than their inferiors: or be more deeply charged, except their livings were in true value, according to their degrees.  
But this would be the mischief of it: that the Disciplinary platformres, have so far overshot themselves already, as certainly they have marred all these their former speculations. For they have made the Deacons office, but annual. And I am persuaded, that if our noble men & worshipful Gentlemen, were but for one year to all respects become Ecclesiastical persons, they would hardly be drawn to continue in that calling the next year after. It was never heard of in the Church of Christ, for the space of a thousand and five hundred years, that the deacons office should be annual. Imposition of hands by the Presbytery, to an office for a year▪ In what Apostle, in what Evangelist, in what History may we find it▪ A man shallbe an Ecclesiastical person to day, and to morrow (without any fault committed by him) he shall become a lay man again. Master Beza seeing the absurdity hereof, doth endeavour to salve it, as well as he can. And wots ye how▪ Surely he saith in effect, that few men will be willing to ●arry long in that office: and that therefore they are glad to have them as they may, and to frame their laws accordingly. But you shall hear his own words to Doctor Saravia, who doth mislike that the Deacons office is annual. Restitue igitur nobis faelicia illa Apostolicarum Ecclesiarum tempora, etc. Restore then unto us (saith Beza) those happy times of the Apostolical Churches, 
Beza count Saravia. ca 7.  and stir up such men, in every place if thou canst, who will not refuse this office with that condition.  
See I pray you how weak in faith Master Beza is. Tush (saith Cartwright) and some others, even in the very like case: grant unto us once, that we have our Presbyteries established, and as concerning fit men to take upon them the offices which are there required, God will stir them up thick and threefold: you shall be sure there will be no want that way. You have heard before, the place I mean, 
T. C. lib. 1. pag. 180.  but such a good tale cannot be told too oft. When men are called (saith he) to a lawful and profitable calling, and especially to a public calling: God poureth his gifts on that person, (which is called) so plentifully: that he is as it were suddenly made a new man. Now if this be true: of all the gifts which are most necessary in any man of calling, I take it, that this one may go in the number: that a man having put his hand to the plough, should not look back, but continue in the calling which he hath taken upon him. So as then Bezacs' answer is not worth a straw, to tell us that the Deacons office, is not of such continuance now, as it was in the Apostles times: because men will not now take that charge upon them. For Cartwright either telleth him in effect: that Deacons must be chosen for their lives, as in the Apostles times, (except there be some extraordinary occasion to the contrary): and that then God will make them willing to continue in their office, according to their duties: or else if he shall restrain his said speeches, (which are general) to his Elders, and so exclude their Deacons, from that sudden influence of God's graces he talketh of: then certainly, I shall doubt, and so I think others will do in like sort, that his Divinity in that point, is much like his platform of Discipline: that is, forged and counterfeit.  
But one thing yet more I am to advertise you off: concerning the worshipful Deacons. And it seemeth strange. Our men as you know, and as it is elsewhere mentioned, have been most earnest upon this point: that the body of Christ must in no wise be deformed, neither by increasing, nor diminishing, nor confounding of those officers and offices, which he himself hath appointed in his Church, and to that end distinguished. Hear I pray you the Demonstrator: where he goeth about to prove, that a Deacon may not intermeddle, either with the word or Sacraments. 
Demon. ca 13  That which the Apostle (saith he) maketh an ordinary and distinct office from other in the Church, must be attended upon by them, that are in the same office, and not to be mingled with any other. But the Deacons office is such a one consisting in distribution with simplicity, as Caluin and Beza etc. do affirm. And therefore consequently the Deacons office must be attended upon, and must not be mingled with any other office. I will not meddle with the insufficiency of this argument: but take every part of it, as the demonstrator meant it: and you shall see what will thereupon fall out. If his minor be true: uz. that the Deacons office, consisting in distribution, is of that nature, that it must be attended upon, and may not be mingled with any other office: What would ye say to him, who should affirm, that notwithstanding the Elders and Deacons are distinct members of Christ's body, and have distinct offices appointed unto them by Christ: yet those offices may be mingled together, and one man may execute them both▪ Surely master Beza is the man. As near as we can (saith he) we (in Geneva) do choose our Deacons (being endued with good gifts) to be likewise Elders: because (the censure and judgement of manners, being no daily function) has duas simul functiones obire facilè possunt: the Deacons may easily discharge both these functions together. Indeed it was meet that the Proctors of their Hospital (carrying the purse) should be entertained with them, by one devise or other. But in the mean while, 
T. C. lib. 1. pa. 190.  our demonstrator runneth against them with all the force of his Engines, quoting Cartwright and Traverse for his chief authors, with their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 one instrument to one use: etc. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 one man may not have two functions or offices: and so amongst them they make (by consequence) the holy platform of Geneva, to be a maimed, a dismembered, a confused, and a mangled platform of Church-discipline. And thus you see (concerning this matter of their new devised Deacons) how they agree together, like Harp and Harrow.   

CHAP. XIX. Of certain widows, which are made Church officers: and of the disagreement, which is about them.  
TOuching this matter of Widows; I will not trouble you much with it. Certain poor godly and impotent widows, that had neither goods nor friends, nor were able in any wise to help themselves, were maintained in the Apostles times, with such money, as was brought in, by the richer sort, and laid at the Apostles feet. The places of scripture, wherein these widows are mentioned, the Papists bring for their Nuns, and our disciplinarian men, for a fift sort of their ecclesiastical governors: both of them (as I take it) with no great sincerity. The office ascribed to Nuns, was single life, fasting, and prayer. The office ascribed to the ruling Widows, is to wash the feet of the saints, and to attend upon the poor, that are sick. This matter of Nuns, is notably handled, by Chemnitius: and so is the other of the pretended ruling Widows, 
Chemnit. ex. council. Trident: par. 3.  by Doctor Sutcliffe. How grossly the Papists have erred in their devise: 
Doct. Sutcliffe of Ecclesi. Discip. cap. 6.  I have not now to deal with it. The disagreement which I find in the other sort, touching their widows: is the point, which is propounded.  
First I see, there is some doubt, whether the persons, who, (as they say) did execute the office mentioned, in the Apostles times: were men only, or women only: or some of them men, and some of them women. Cartwright, he is for the women only: where dividing Deacons into two kinds, he saith thus of the second: Some had charge over the poor strangers, 
T. C. lib. 1. pag. 190.  and the sick poor only: and those S. Paul calleth in one place Diaconisses, and in another place widows. By his opinion then, they were women. But Traverse in his discourse of discipline, where he speaketh of deacons, and casteth them out into their orders: can find no other Church officers to have executed that charge, in the Apostles times, over the sick poor, but only men deacons. A third sort there is, 
Discip. eccles. 118.119.  which depend upon master Beza: & they will be sure not to miss their aim: & therefore they hold, that both men and women were then capable of that office. I agree to them (saith Beza) who think, that saint Paul in these words: (he that showeth mercy with cheerfulness:) understandeth those which were appointed to cure the sick: ut serè erant viduae: such as for the most part the widows were. Not always widows, but for the most part▪ So than belike it is a matter, after a sort indifferent. Indeed in Geneneva, they have no such widows at all: but a physician and a Surgeon, 
Order of Geneva of Deacons.  maintained by the wages of the town, to look to the sick in their hospital. Now all these three sorts of men: have their partakers. The most hold for the widows, with Cartwright. junius giveth this reason why such women were rather appointed to that office than men: 
junius, eccle. lib. 2. cap. 4.  because, aptiores sunt quam viri: they are more fit than men, to be about sick persons, and to help them. The author of the fruitful sermon, he inclineth to Beza, where he saith; that a shower of mercy is he, or rather she, etc. And Traverse, in like sort is not without his adherent. Which disagreement amongst them, is not lightly to be regarded. For if widows were appointed by the Apostles to that office, than men might not execute it: if men were appointed, than it was unlawful for women to take it upon them: no more than it was lawful for them to be either pastors, doctors, Elders, or men deacons.  
But be this point, as it may be: I will come to a second jar. It hath gone a great while for good payment from Beza and Cartwright, etc. that the whole Church being divided, 
Beza annot: Rom. 12. & count Erast. T.C. lib. 1. pa. 190.  into ecclesiastical governors and Idiots: the men or women that did attend the poor sick, or rather the women (that I may use their phrase,) were no more to be reckoned amongst the lay Idiots in their parish, but must be thenceforth accounted in the number of Church governors. 
Learn. discourse. Fruitful Sermon.  A widow in a Spittle house, an ecclesiastical person: nay an ecclesiastical governor & commander. It seemeth that some have been driven from Beza, Cartwright, and the rest of their associates: with the very cogitation of this so gross an absurdity. And therefore to salve up the matter, (and yet to come as near as they could unto them) they have displaced these widows from their seats of government, and have made them plain idiots again, as they were before. Or rather, which is much worse: whereas before they were governors of the Church; 
Fenner defence Fruitful sermon.  they have now thrust them into the lowest place, that may be, & say, they are to be esteemed but as Church servants, such as were appointed by the governors of the Church, and consent of the people, to that servitude. Here is then a great fall, as I think. From a wise woman to an Idiot, or from a public person to a private condition: and from a Church governor, to a poor Spittle-house servant. Who would wish to his enemy a greater change▪ Peradventure there will be some distinction devised, that shall stop up this gap: but if it be not a good one, it may so chance; that all their sovereign rulers will be masshed with it.  
Thirdly, if these the foresaid helpers of the poor sick, should be men, as it is in Geneva, diverse great questions will rise. As for example: where the holy Ghost hath described their qualities? How well seen, they ought to be in physic and surgery▪ who should try their skill before they were chosen? Being chosen, who should admit them? Whether the Eldership must be able to try them? And whether it be an Apostolical rule, that Physicians and Surgeons should be ordained for practitioners, by the imposition of the hands of the presbytery? And again, on the other side also, if the said mercy showers do prove to be widows, (although as they say, there is some kind of description of them in the Apostles first Epistle to Timothy, 
1. Tim. 5.  wherein they agree:) yet some thing will still fall forth, to be out of joint. Every such widow as they require, must be threescore years old at the least, and such a one (saith master Caluin) as was, unius viri uxor, the wife of one husband: 
Cal. in 1. Tim. 5.  that is, was never married but once. And he yieldeth this reason of that the Apostles order: because when a woman cometh to those years, and hath been content all her lifetime before, to have had but one husband: it is very likely, that afterward she will live both continently and modestly. So then by master Caluins' judgement, there might no widow have attained to the said Church office, of governing the sick poor: if she had been twice married. But M. Cartwright relying upon master Bezaes' annotations, will (as it seemeth) none of that: but saith, that it is sufficient, if such a widow hath had but one husband at once, and hath not been married unto another after an insufficient divorce. 
T.C. lib. 2. p. 116.  By whose opinion, every such widow, might have had in the course of her life four or five husbands: without prejudicing herself thereby, from being as likely to live continently, after she came to the age of threescore: as any other which should have had but one husband at all. If the reason of the Apostles words depend any way upon that point: peradventure Master Caluins' exposition, will prove to be the better.  
But there are here two points, which I marvel at. It seemeth that by the opinions of them all three, a widow being once chosen to be a church-governour, might not afterwards marry (at the least), and keep her office. And why should then either physician or surgeon that is married, have that charge committed unto him▪ Cannot an old woman, that hath peradventure as old an husband, be as diligent and careful about the sick poor; as a physician and Surgeon of middle years, that may have both of them peradventure, young wives▪ The second point I spoke of, is this. Master Beza in his exposition of the place mentioned: unius viri uxor, the wife of one husband, notwithstanding he knew Master Caluins' foresaid interpretation of the same words to be opposite to his, and that he taketh upon him to confute his reason before specified, uz. of the probability, that such women, as had been married but once in threescore years, were more likely to live chastened afterward, then if they had been married four or five times: yet for the honour and reverence (as I take it) of M. Caluins' name, he doth not once make mention of him. You will say, this is a slender marvel. M. Caluin was his friend, and therefore he named him not. Indeed, that is the manner of the world. Men are oft favoured: as they are friended. But it is pity, that the ancient Fathers have no more friendship, with Beza. For, that is the point I marvel at. Hear him how he cometh over them, or rather how he descrediteth himself. Hac in re sanè etc. In this thing surely, I do not easily agree to the ancient fathers, especially the latin writers. And again: If any man shall oppose against my exposition, the authority of certain of the ancient fathers: ad verbum dei provoco, I do appeal to the word of God, and I desire, that the reasons, which I have brought for it; may be refelled. How crank he is with the ancient fathers? but not a word of M. Caluin. And his reason (as I take it) was this: because M. Caluins' authority serving him much better, for the credit of divers Disciplinary positions, than all the ancient fathers do: he is more desirous for the continuance of his reputation, then of all theirs. A fourth matter there is also, concerning these widows, which is of the greatest importance: and is yet no better agreed upon, then as you have heard of the rest. Be it, that in the Apostles times there were such widows, as they affect: yet the question is; whether it be necessary, that now there should be such church-officers, or new colleges of widows, set up in every parish, to look to the poor that be sick or not? Some of their proctor's, do waver much, in this point: some are resolute for them, & some are as resolute (to my understanding) against them. First (I pray you) let M. Cartwright speak his pleasure. 
T.C. l. 1. p. 190  Saint Paul reckoneth up all the ordinary and perpetual offices of the Church; of the Doctor, of the Pastor, of the Deacon, of the Elder, and leaveth not out so much as the Widow. Again. Now there is not so great use of these widows with us etc. Part of the necessity (why they were first founded) grew both by the multitude of strangers etc. and by the great heat of those East countries, whereupon the washing and suppling of feet, was required. Again: For as much as there are poor, which are sick in every church: I do not see a better order can be devised etc. if there can be any widows gotten. And again. I conclude, that (if such may be gotten) we ought to keep that order in the church. In good time. It is a very substantial conclusion.  
And is he come to this: If such can be gotten? Hath God appointed such officers to be in every parish, as cannot be gotten▪ He told us before in the behalf of his Elders, (as you shall hear again the third time) that when men are called to a lawful and profitable calling, 
T.C. l. 1. p. 180  and especially to a public calling, God doth power his gifts on that person (which is called) so plentifully, that he is, as it were, suddenly made a new man. Whereupon he inferreth, that do but once make choice of such Elders, as he doth after: and God will by and by make them fit persons to execute their offices. And may we not then also affirm, by the Analogy of the same doctrine: that when God appointeth an ordinary and perpetual office in his Church, he doth also provide, either ordinarily or extraordinarily, that there shall be always some to undertake it▪ What prerogative have his Elders above his Widows, that God having appointed them both alike, to bear a continual office in his Church: the one sort should be so miraculously provided for, even upon the sudden, and the other be suffered so far to wear out, as that they cannot be gotten▪ May it not be as truly said, set up the Eldership in every parish, and God will provide Widows: as set it so up in the most Clownish parish in England, and God will presently by inspiration, make the poor husbandmen, Carters, Thatchers and daubers, newly chosen to be Elders, such meet and able men, to govern the church: as the keys of the kingdom of Heaven, may be safely committed into their hands?  
Whether through these and such like other conceits, or upon what grounds else I know not: but there is a second sort of Disciplinary Widdowistes, that are very far grown past Cartwrights', Ifs. 
Fenner.  One that writeth the defence of the godly Ministers, (as he entituleth them,) hath in that Treatise, framed ten arguments of a wonderful power, as many have supposed. Wherein he al'wayes comprehendeth the widows: & nameth them as necessary parts of the form of that Church-governement, which Christ and his Apostles have appointed to be the ordinary and perpetual platform for the guiding and governing of the Church, until the end of the world: and maketh them, (by such force as his arguments have,) as necessary, for the ordinary continuance of them, as either Pastor, Doctor, Elders, or men Deacons. The learned discourser likewise agreeth with this Defence-maker; where having spoken of Widows, amongst the rest of their Church-officers: and of all their offices: he saith, that being instituted by the spirit of God, 
Learned disc. pag. 104.  for the necessary use of the Church, which use still continueth, they ought also to be retained among us. I may not here also omit the author of the Fruitful sermon, 
Fruitful Serm. pa. 39  who expoundeth so prettily, the similitude which S. Paul useth of that mystical body, whereof (as I take it) Christ is the head: that he excludeth the whole Church, from being any members of it, except they be either Pastors, Doctors, Elders, Deacons, or Widows. A member (saith he) is such a part of the body, 
Ibid.  as hath received from the head, some particular and necessary gift, to help and benefit the whole body, and every member thereof. And so he reckoneth us his members, as I have said. His meaning therein is this, (as I think,) that the rest of the body, is but as it were a rude lump, which is to be framed and fashioned, by the said members: by every one, according to the office of it. And after for the necessity, uz. that every one of his said members, no more, no fewer, should always continue in the body: he useth these words, If nature lack any one member, be it never so base, 
Ibid pag. 40.  if it be but one toe, she is sorry, she is grieved, she lamenteth, she judgeth herself maimed, yea she would redeem it with the peril of loosing the rest, such is her love and desire, to appear in her beauty & perfection. As though he should have said, that he and his fellows are so far bewitched with the desire of their Eldershippes; that rather than they will miss their Widows, even the meanest members of it, they care not to hazard the being of the whole Church.  
Unto this fruitful sermoner mentioned: 
Defence. pag. 135.  I will add one of Fenners invincible arguments, because it enforceth the said similitude of the members of the body so syllogistically. Whatsoever officers are ordinary members of the Church: are set into the same of God for ordinary etc. perpetual duties, with ordinary and perpetual gifts, wherein they are commanded to abide, and wherewith the Church is commanded to be content: Those are ordinary perpetual and the best, for no man may remove the members of Christ's body, having ordinary gifts and actions for the perpetual use of the body. But these of Doctors, Pastors, Elders, Deacons, Church-seruants, are ordinary members of the Church: are set into the same of God, for ordinary duties of teaching, exhorting, ruling, provision for the poor, and attendance unto them: all which no man in his wits will deny to be perpetual, and in these, expressly they which have the gifts, are commanded to abide, and to content themselves with them: Wherefore &c. These men you see, must either have their Widows, or else all is marred. And have them they will, if distinguishing, similitudes, dividing, syllogisms, and logic, will get them. And besides you may perceive what most vehement, pathetical, and peremptory men they are, in this behalf.  
Howbeit you shall find that other men, nay whole Churches (for all this heat) are of another opinion: and withal, such men and Churches, as neither the defender, discourser, nor sermoner, nor all the private disciplinary conventicles in England, will presume in any sort to compare themselves unto them. Master Beza doth not think the having of Widows, to be such an ordinary and perpetual institution, as it hath been pretended. For at Geneva, not such a Widow, if you would give a pound for her. And yet that platform is either perfect by this time: or else there hangs some curse over it. But this I am sure of: that he who durst take upon him, to tell them in Geneva, that by their omission of these Widows, they have cruelly wounded the body of Christ: they had like desperate ruffians, cut of one of his members: and that in these respects, the form of their Disciplinary regiment, is maimed and deformed: might peradventure repent him of it. Indeed either I am very much deceived, or else this dream of widows beginneth to vanish. The very principal, nay the only place, uz. He that showeth mercy with cheerfulness, whereupon they have hitherto built, to prove them to be such Church-officers, as they have imagined them to be: is boldly, and with main strength wrested out of their hands: notwithstanding that Master Caluin, M. Beza, and M. Cartwright, had laid as fast hold upon it, as they could. Or peradventure I might rather say, that the two which be alive, seeing their tenure was nought, have willingly given it over. The Champion I mean, that hath done this great deed, is Master Travers. 
De disci. Eccles. fol. 119.  Who writeth of this point, after this sort. That which followeth of him that showeth mercy; nullum certe munus ecclesiae indicare puto etc. I think it meaneth not any certain office, but what duty, the whole Church ought to show in relieving the poor. Thus far and further Master Travers, in his Latin book, as if you will peruse the place, you shall perceive.  
But you must remember, that I do refer you to his Latin book: and not to the English translation of it. Why? some may say: is it not faithfully translated? Shall we think that such zealous men, as had to deal therein, would serve us as the jesuits do? It is, we know, a practice, with that false hypocritical brood, to leave out and thrust in, what they list into the writings of the ancient Fathers: that thereby in time, nothing might appear, which should any way make against them. But we will never suspect nor believe, that any man who feareth God: and lest of all, that any of that sort, which are so earnest against all abuses and corruptions, should play us such a prank. Surely ye do well to judge the best: and I myself was of your opinion. But now I am clean altered. How were some of Vrsinus works used at Cambridge? And it is true that some other Books have been handled very strangely elsewhere. But concerning the present point, this is the truth. The translator of Traverses Book, hath quite omitted the words which I have alleged: and all the rest that tendeth to that purpose, even seventeen lines together. So as if you see but the English Book, you shall not find so much as one step, whereby you might suspect, that ever Master Traverse had carried so hard a hand over the pretended Widows. If the translator had received any Commission from the author to have dealt in that sort with his Book: yet it should have been signified either in some Preface or in some note, or by some means or other: but to leave such a matter out, and to give no general warning of it, I tell you plainly it was great dishonesty and lewdness. It were better for them to give over their platforms in the plain field: then to seek to maintain them with such apparent falsehoods.  
Well, let them take their course, and yet all their sleights will not prevail. But the Translator or Councillor, or peruser, one or more, or how many soever: they were but all of them sots: if they thought by such their corruption, to bolster up the credit of their Widow Church-governors. For it is evident (in my judgement) that either most of their own men, do begin to come to Master Traverses opinion before mentioned, or else that generally it is held by them, that the first ordaining of Widows, was but for a time, & never meant to be an ordinary, and perpetual institution to continue for ever.  
In Geneva (as I said) there are no such Widows. scotlan in their approved Book after the Geneva fashion, doth not once think of them. The Synodical constitutions, for the Presbyterial platform of all the French Churches, do make no mention of them. The general Council of Hage, and so all the Low Countries, have wholly forgotten them in their decrees and Canons. In the platform, and new Communion Book, which was offered once or twice to the high Court of Parliament in England, (concerning these Widows) there is nothing but silence. Whereas also there hath been great pains taken of later years, amongst the Disciplinary brotherhood, and many meetings, and Synods held, about another more particular draft of Discipline, for this Realm, till at the last they have subscribed unto it, to be a necessary platform for all places and times: yet you shall not find, that they have spoken, so much as one word, of those Widows. Whereupon I conclude, that their cause is desperate: and so I leave, both them and their patrons, with all their contrarieties, uncertainties, and wranglings about them: and will come to the consideration of another material point: uz. what charge this consistorial devise doth bring with it, to every parish.   

CHAP. 20. Of the charge to be imposed upon every parish, by means of the pretended Eldership.  
BY the common account of our disciplinary devices: there are divers ecclesiastical persons to be maintained in every Parish. Now, there is but one, in most places, the Parson or the Vicar: and (God knoweth) in many parishes, their entertainment is full bare. But admit of the consistorial Senate in every parish: 
Pag. 131.  and then consider how they shall be charged. First the current assertion is; That in every Congregation there must be a Pastor: but the learned Discourser saith; there should be two at the least. Then they must have a Doctor. And for Elders, they may be more or fewer: as the circuit of the Parish is. Except Master Bezaes' collection prove to be authentical: and then their number will be great. You have heard that we must have the form, of the jews Sanedrim or Counsel in every Parish. And in that (saith Beza) there were twenty four Ecclesiastical judges. By which account, abating the Pastor and the Doctor: there ought to be two and twenty Elders in every parish. You shall hear Bezaos words, and how heegathereth that there was such a number.  
There is mention made in the Apoca. of a throne: upon the which Christ sitteth, 
Apoca. 4.  and of the four and twenty Seats about it, whereupon four & twenty Elders sat: who were clothed in white raiment, and had on their heads Crowns of gold. 
Beza: count E-rast. lib. script.  Now saith Beza (concerning the said number mentioned of ecclesiastical judges) 24. numero fuisse etc., That they were in number 24. that is to say, two of every Tribe, it seemeth it may be gathered out of the Apocalyps: where certum est, it is certain, that those heavenly visions were framed or accommotated to the form of the Israeliticall Church. Where by the way, it would be observed; what a glorious church-regement we are in time to look for. Our Elderships must be framed, after the fashion of the Elderships which were amongst the jews. And if we doubt of the state and form of the jews elderships; we must have recourse to the apocalypse, where the glory of Christ & his Saints in the kingdom of heaven is set forth. And agreeably to those heavenly thrones; we must set up thrones for our 24. Elders in every parish. For this Beza is certain of, that the heavenly visions in the Apocalyps, were agreeable to the form of the ecclesiastical regiment in Israel. But as touching the number of his elders: he is not as yet, for any thing I perceive, so thoroughly resolved. And therefore we are at liberty till we hear to the contrary from him: to place more or fewer in every parish as we list.  
At Geneva they have but 12. Elders. 
Knox of elect of Elders.  And they either have; or had once in Edinburgh: as many. Likewise, every parish must have certain Deacons. They had once in Edinburgh (as I remember) 16. Deacons. And concerning widows, (if they will urge us with the examples of the Apostles times, and withal in like manner press us with their own expositions) then there must be a College of widows in every parish. 
Thes. Geneu. pag. 220.  So the grounds of Geneva divinity tell us; 
Beza Ann. Act 6.1.  & so doth Beza likewise, if I understand them. And all these, how many i● ever it shall please our reformers to impose upon every parish: pastor or pastors, Doctor, Elders, Deacons, & widows: must all of them be found by the same parish. For the ministers of the word there was never doubt made amongst them, but that they ought to have their maintenance of the parish: and so likewise must the poor widows. But as touching the rest, there hath been made some question. It was a good devise of Beza, that princes & noblemen might be elders: & so was it of our learned Discourser that the worshipful gentlemen of every parish might be choose Deacons. The rby indeed the parishes might save charges. For if they be able to live of themselves: then they must not burden the parish (in Cartwrightes' opinion) but serve upon their own charges. The Elders at Geneva, (being all of them statesmen, I mean such as be of their Senates; men conveniently able to live of themselves) have no allowance for any thing that I can find. But where the Elders are poor men, so as their attending upon their offices, might greatly hinder them; 
T.C. Lib. 1. pag. 187.  then M. Cartwright hath decided the question, & affirmeth by S. Paul's Rule (as he saith) that they ought to be plentifully maintained by the Church. How far this word plentifully will be extended; I know not. But a man may guess. The humble motioner would have the Pastor and Teacher in every parish, to have allowed unto them two hundred pounds yearly: in chiefer places more, and in none less than two hundred marks. By which rate I imagine that their Elders (being so great men by their office and the governors of the parish) cannot well be allowed under forty pound a piece yearly. The deacons that carry the purse (if they be not well looked unto) will be their own carvers: but surely their stipend will be for every one of them above forty marks. As for the Widows they cannot well live to attend the sick and wash the Saint's feet: with less: then twenty nobles a year, how many of them so ever they are. All which sums, being cast together: will prove a rank charge, to be imposed upon every parish. But yet this is not all. For how shall the pastors & doctors wives and children live: when their husbands and parents are dead? This is also foreseen. Provision must be made not only for the ministers sustentation during their lives, but also for their wives and children after them. For we judge it a thing most contrarious to reason, 
History of the Church of Scot pag. 560. &c:  godliness & equity, that the widow and children of him, who in his life time did faithfully serve the church of God, should after his death be left comfortless of all provision. In what sort, these widows are to be relieved: I find not any particulars of it. But they may not be, of the number, of the Church officers; except they be threescore years of age, or have some privileges by their late husbands for those rooms. And as touching the children of ministers, this order is required for them: 
Ibid.  that the men children may have the liberties of the cities adjacent, where their fathers laboured, freely granted them: that they be sustained at learning, if they be found apt thereto: and failing thereof, that they be put to some handicraft or exercise in some virtuous industry: and likewise for the women children, that they be virtuously brought up, & honestly doted, when they come to maturity of years, at the discretion of the Church etc. Not at the people's discretion who must bear the charge: but as it shall please their Elderships to tax them.  
Furthermore, and besides the officers and charges mentioned: 
Disc. sacra.  it is also ordered by the new Book of our English Discipline, that there ought to be in every parish, a College or certain number of young Divines: such as are meet for the exercises to Divinity, and especially to expound the Scriptures: whereby they may be trained up by preaching. And all these must be likewise maintained, divitum liberalitate, by the liberality of the richer. Here you see is charge upon charge. But indeed it were a notable matter, to have a College of young Prophets in every parish. In the Universities there are Schools, for reading of Lectures and for disputations: but (as our platformers tell us) these their parish Schools of Divinity, are chief for preaching. They must preach privately amongst themselves by course: and having an ancienter Divine with them, (I suppose it will fall to the Pastor's lot,) they are afterwards to confer of the faults or defects, which are found in the young preacher, and to tell him of them, that he may amend them. Certainly if these men had been suffered to have run on forward, I fear they would have run mad. What speculations be these? All their Elders must be such men, as Saint Paul requireth a Bishop to be: they must be able to preach in their Consistories, and privately. And now you must have in every parish diverse young men, such as are meet for the exercises of Divinity before they be admitted. And where will they have all these? It was precisely said of Master Cartwright, uz. thus in effect: Never let that trouble you: set up the Eldership, choose your Elders, etc. & God will make them fit for their charges upon a soddain. It had been very providently handled of him, if he had likewise taught the people, that they should never have sticked for any cost, which they were to bestow for the maintenance of the said Church-officers, though they should be twice as many: because in bestowing their goods after that sort, God will make them rich and fill their tub, their oil bottles▪ their barns and their purses upon the sudden.  
It was but a simple suit▪ made by the author of the complaint of the commonalty: 
Complaint of the commonalty.  that as the Papists built Seminaries to advance the kingdom of the Devil: so there might be more Colleges, and Seminaries of true Religion erected. For now you see, it is appointed: that there shallbe such a Seminary in every parish. And how the coiners of this devise, did ever grow into any such conceit: I cannot certainly guess, except it be, because there is such a kind of School or Seminary in Geneva. Indeed when the State there had seized upon the Church-livinge: they erected a School with some small allowance, according as our English proverb runneth, of taking away a goose and sticking down a feather. The profit which they have by the one, exceedeth far the charge of the other. If now our men could invent such a way for every parish: peradventure they might be heard. They talk indeed of a matter, how to have their Elderships with all the appertenannces thereunto belonging, 
Humble motion. Complaint Traversi dis. Eccles. The learned discourse.  and yet not greatly to overcharge any parishes. But it is not after the fashion of Geneva. There the Magistrates fleeced the church, but they would have all themselves: the Bishops livings, Cathedral Churches, Impropriations, and rather than fail all the Abbaie lands, and such things as did belong to all the rest of the houses of Religion. If any parish in England should ask my counsel, whether I thought they might safely enter into such a present charge for the maintenance of so many Pastor, Doctor, Elders, Deacons, Widows, Ministers wives, their children, and poor Students of Divinities in hope that all the said Church-livings should be bestowed for their ease, upon such their Church officers: I should say unto them (if I spoke my conscience) that I myself am far from any such cogitation. No, no, for all the outcries that the Disciplinarians make (as in the next chapter you shall perceive:) that all the Church-livings, might be emploide to the maintenance of them and their Elderships: well they may procure in some other age, the further impoverishing of the Church, but they shall be sure to be little the better for it.   

CHAP. XXI. Of their desire, that those things which have been taken by Sacrilege from the Church, might be restored again to the maintenance of their Elderships.  
EXperience they say is not a foolish mistress: but a mistress of fools. In the beginning of the late reformation of Religion, in most places of Europe, divers notable men did greatly overshoot themselves. It is Aristotle's rule, that one way to come to the mean, is to proceed ab extremo in extremum, from one extremity to another. And it may hold in the example by him alleged, of making a crooked stick to be strait: but it is not to be allowed of in any sort, in the course of Divinity. There it is reckoned a point of great weakness, (and so it is also with the profane writers,) to run from one extremity to another. Many examples I could bring of this weakness: as how in many places, men have leapt from auricular confession, to the contempt of all private conference with their Pastor: from pharifaicall long prayers, upon a pair of beads, three or four times said over by tale, at one time, to little prayer at all, two or three words, (if so many) and farewell: (agreeable to men's consciences, even as the Proverb faith. A short horse is soon curried:) from most gros and palpable Idolatry and superstition, unto very great security and profanation. Many other such examples I might allege, of running from one mischief to another: but there is none fit than of the course which hath been held, in this very matter, whereof I entreat.  
In times past, men thought they could not give too much to the church, but now many suppose, they cannot take too much from the Church. In times passed there was so much given to the church, that the k. of England was fain to make a law for the stay of so great liberality, 
Exod. 36.  (as Moses did when there was sufficient provision made for the building of the temple): but now men's hearts are grown to such a contrary extremity, and are so far from incurring any danger in breaking that law for restraining them, as notwithstanding her most excellent M. hath continued & made herself, very many notable laws, that the church might keep that which other men hath given her, and for the binding of men, to pay their duties to the Church: yet every man seethe how under pretence of concealments, and by many other means the church-good are thirsted after, and how the poor ministers are most pitifully defrauded in the payment of such duties, as do belong unto them. Insomuch (by report) as now in sundry places, if they shall but seek or sue to have their own: either they are greatly misliked, or presently are indicted for common Barators: or if they escape that, out flieth a prohibition from one place, a sequestration from another, and I know not what else, nor from whence.  
And the cause of these & many other such extremities, I do not impute so much unto the laity, as to sundry men of the Clergy: whose proceed have been greatly by extremities. It was an extremity, when Wickliff affirmed, that tithes (appointed by God himself) were merae eleemosynae, mere alms. But of all extremities, that passeth, where some now a days would have all taken from the Church, that so Ministers might live, as they did in the Apostles times; that is, only upon voluntary contributions. And this they think, to be a part of the Apostolical reformation, which they seek for. Whereunto I (for my part) might peradventure yield, if the laity would be sworn before they took that from us, which we have already: to deal with us indeed for our provision and maintenance, as preachers were dealt with all in the Apostles times.  
I know, what will here be answered. When we see that you that be Ministers, are become such men as the Apostles were, we will use you as they were used. What? will ye persecute us▪ No, we will bring that which we have, and lay it at your feet. I beshrew my heart if I believe you. But if I did, the matter were not great. For there never were such men, nor ever shall be to the end of the world, as the Apostles were. So as where they limit their liberality with that caution: it is as much as if they should say: we would be glad to finger that which you have, and then get more as you could. Nay it smelleth surely of a greater profanation. For your ministers do teach you now the same doctrine: that the Apostles taught. And would you desire more? Do you look for it at their hands, that they should work miracles? Is your pretended great zeal come to this, that now you have need of miracles?  
If any man think I fight against mine own shadow, and that there are none so wickedly bend, as to wish an utter spoil of the Church: he is to be advertised that M. Barrow, 
Barrow. p. 55. 58. 61  with all his Sectaries (more in number then is imagined, 
Petition to her May. p. 49  and lately increased by one, a frantic petitioner) they are the men. Indeed the other sort of Consistorial reformers, are grown to be wiser. For a while, it is true, that many of them dreamt of such a matter. They talked, how much of the church livings, might be emploide this way, and how much that way. Tithes were Popish toys: 
Humble motion p. 100. etc.  yet lay men might have them, and Ministers should be paid out of the Exchequer. The humble motioner maketh mention of some such way, to put Ministers to their pensions: but he confuteth it and broacheth another devise of his own. 
Disc. Eccl. fol. 95.96.  Traverse he doth not think that Tithes are due by the word: but yet he would have them to be continued to the church, howbeit not to be gathered in such sort as they are. The Magnifico could be content to have the Tithes: but for sooth Princes must take order to have them brought truly into the Ministers Barns, that they may not be troubled with so base a thing, as to look to the manner of tithing. Nescio quid habet sordidi singulorum agros, ne fallatur, aestimare, etc. that is, as his Translator in Cambridge saith: It is a base and vile thing for them to view every man's field, lest they be deceived, and to know the number and increase of every man's flock, or cattle: and of other things etc. Many Ministers in some Countries not far from hence, who think themselves as jolly fellows as Master Traverse, would be glad with all their hearts to abase themselves to this nescio quid sordidi, if they might.  
When reformation of Religion was first urged, it was thought such an effectual motive, as would procure attention, uz. to entitle Princes after a sort to the church-good. The learned men persuaded themselves, that if by any policy they could overthrow popery, it would be afterwards a very easy matter to recover them again. If error and superstition had been so beneficial to the Church, they nothing doubted, but that truth and sincerity would bring forth at the least as plentiful fruits. Besides, they did not so yield over their right in those matters to Princes: but it was done with divers cautions and provisoes, by virtue whereof they supposed in time, to recover all again into their own hands. But it is not good to dally with Princes. Indeed they played, wary beguile themselves: which since hath wonderfully moved them. And now they (all of them in a manner) do run upon this ground, uz. that Kings and Princes are bound by the word of God to restore to the Church such goods, as heretofore they have taken from her: and generally that nothing once separated from a common use, and bestowed upon the Church, may be afterwards alienated to any other use.  
Cardinal Sadolette charging the Ministers of Geneva: 
Sadol to the Gene. p. 162  that by the which course they had taken there: they did novas sibi potentias & novos honores quaerere, seek to themselves new powers and new honours: 
●al. to Sad. p. 172.  M. Caluin answereth in this sort, that they did not affect nor gape after any other riches or dignities, than such as at that time was fallen to their lot: testes erunt omnes qui nos audierunt: as all they can witness that have heard us. Howbeit the perceived within a while after, that the ministers had too little, and that the civil magistrates had greatly overreached them in that behalf. Whereupon he began in all his sermons for the most part, to insist much upon the restitution of the church-good. Capito confesseth in general terms (but such as may well be extended to this matter) that the rash dealing, which had been practised, for the abolishing of Popery, had been very inconvenient. Dominus videre dat etc. God doth le● us now see etc. quantum praecipiti indicio, vehementiaque inconsulta abijciendi ita pontificis nocuerimus: 
Epist. to Farel. in Cal. Epist. 6.  what hurt we have done by rash judgement, and inconsiderate vehemency of banishing the Pope after such a manner. One Zuickius finding the mischief also in Constance, of the Magistrates grappling very greedily for the Churche-goodes: 
Zuick. to Cal. in Cal. Epi. 33.  writeth thus to Master Caluin. Quanta bonorum Ecclesiasticorum s●l ratio habenda, etc. What regard there ought to be had of the goods of the Church, I need not to recite: use your endeavour with all good men, that they would exhort our Magistrates earnestly to the lawful use of those goods. Huc enim ventum videtur, etc. For now it seemeth to be come to this pass (which I say not without grief) that a great part of our Magistrates do believe, that then only indeed, they escape from under the kingdom of Antichrist, si cum bonis ecclesiae ludant pro libito, nec ulli disciplinae subsint, if they may play with the goods of the Church at their pleasures, and be subject to no kind of Discipline. O egregium Christianismum: O worthy Christianity.  
Whether Master Caluin did satisfy Zuickius desire, in moving the magistrates of Constance, to the effect mentioned; I know not. But what he writ to Farellus (upon the very same occasion): you shall hear. The church-livings, were used in the very same manner at Neocome; that they were at Constance. Farellus, being the minister, entreated M. Caluin to write to the magistrates at Neocome: for their desisting from that sacrilegious course. To whom Master Caluin returned this answer, in effect: uz. that they themselves, the ministers at Geneva, were as hardly handled in the same respect, with their own magistrates: and that it were therefore a very absurd point for him to seek to reform the magistrates of other Cities abroad, before he should have reform his own first at home. His words are: as it followeth. Timendum est etc. It is to be feared, 
Calu. epist. 66.  lest we seem ridiculous to your magistrates, in requiring that of them, which as yet we have not obtained of our own. We shall teach, what the right use is of church, goods, and who are the lawful Stewards of them, that by our authority we may urge those of Neocome. Cur non potius exordium a nobis facimus? But first why do not we begin with ourselves▪ Take heed therefore lest in attempting to do you good, that we do not rather hurt your cause. How much more forcible would that be, which is in the book, that I procured to be printed when I was at Strasburgh. For there the Princes, as many as embrace the gospel, do promise the restitution of all, which they have in their possessions, if once there were any godly concord agreed upon. Your magistrates are to be admonished by the example of those Princes, that at the least until that time, they would keep them all wholly together undisposed of, or distracted in their own hands. You will ask me why I cease or hold my peace, if I see the same mischief in Geneva that vexeth you? Ego verònon cesso etc. I do not (truly) cease openly in my sermons, as oft as opportunity serveth thereunto. Contestor Deum & homines, grave nobis imminere judicium. I do with grief & prayer call God and men to witness, that a heavy judgement hangeth over our heads. I have also affirmed diverse times as much in our Senate: neither do I think that as yet I have discharged my duty, seeing I have nothing prevailed. But I do follow Ambrose, who retaining the doctrine and the place of a pastor, so as in defence of them he was ready to have spent his life; agros tyrannidi Imperatoris Valentiniani sinebat: he permitted the possessions of the Church to the tyranny of Valentinian the Emperor. For our magistrates do suspect, that the strife is, but of emulation, as though our grief only were, that they have wrong those things out of our fingers which now they possess: except peradventure they give it so out, not because they think so, but for that they would thereby discredit our words in that behalf. But yet notwithstanding we must so avoid suspicion, that we do not wink at sacrilege.  
And again, the same master Caluin in another epistle to Viretus: doth signify unto him, how he dealt with the magistrates of Geneva, at one especial time, when there was speech about certain stipends. When I saw how hard they were in that matter, acriter aurem illis vellicavi etc. I made their ears to burn (saith he) as concerning the administration of church-good: how in time they were to think, what account they should make both to God, 
Cal. to Viret epist. 108.  and men: Papam fuisse furem et sacrilegum, videndum ne simus successores, that the Pope was a thief and a church robber, and they were to look to it, that they proved not his successors. I did use a preface, that might cause attention: uz. That the wounds of a friend were better etc. and that they should not seek any Balaam, qui illis in maledictione benediceret, who in their cursed estate should bless them. Hitherto master Caluin; whose words I have set down at large: that you might the better understand, the estate of the most worthy Reformation of the church of Geneva: and how the discipline being there in her full prime and brightness, it is not possible that any gross enormities should continue in that City. Indeed it is much, and I marvel how it is endured, that master Caluin should resemble the magistrates of Geneva, to such cruel, tyrannous, and sacrilegious persons, Valentinian the Emperor, and the Pope of Rome. But most of all I wonder that master Beza would publish such letters in print. Being but written to private men: the matter could not be great. Marry now they are thus offered to all posterity: the testimony of such tyrannous sacrilege will be ever had in memory. For which kind of dealing: they are much beholden to Beza. It was indeed, handled of him politicly. Of likelihood the sacrilege mentioned doth continue there still. But he being a provident man, thought it better that master Caluin, being dead should tell them of it; then he himself being alive, and therefore subject unto their displeasures. For otherwise master Beza for his part, is as earnest against sacrilege, as ever master Caluin was: and it may be for aught I do know, or remember to the contrary, that he hath dealt himself as roundly with them. But sure I am of his judgement: which doth appear in his treatise of his three sorts of Bishops, 
Beza.  where this question being propounded unto him: uz. Whether these things which had been once vowed to holy uses, might afterwards be otherwise employed: he maketh this answer: Concerning the goods of the Church: first of all we suppose great heed ought to be taken, that none doth stain himself with handling the church goods. For if God hath taken revenge of such sacrilege, even amongst the very Idolaters, what trow we will his judgement be against them which have spoiled his Church: and have profaned the things which were set a part for his true worship. Moreover it is evident, that this turneth greatly to the reproach of the name of God, and of his holy gospel: as though for sooth papistry hath been abandoned not for the love of the truth, but to rob the Church of her goods: as though new thieves have entered into the rooms of the old▪ etc. Viretus in like manner, for his earnestness in this point, 
Viret 3. dial. of white diucles.  is neither short of Caluin not Beza. The less authority that the ministry and ministers have: the greater liberty have sacrilegers, thieves, extortioners, and other wicked ones. Again, I know many which liked the gospel well, when in the beginning their preachers cried against the abuse, that they said was in the Romish church, and in priests and monks. They liked well also that the goods of the Church should be taken from Priests and Monks, to have the government of them themselves, under colour that the Priests and Monks abused them, and that they should be put to better use: but God knoweth how evil they are bestowed upon many, and in many places. The worst is, that those which have not done herein as they ought, and which daily forget themselves more & more, cannot now a days so much as suffer the preachers to admonish & reprove them, & to stir them up to bestow it where they ought to bestow it, according to the order & discipline etc. 
ibidem.  And in another place. These fellows (that will not restore the church-livings) may be likened to those Devils, which cry: why art thou come to torment us before our time? And the same fellows also say: Qui nostra tollit, inimicus est: he that taketh away ours, is our enemy. They regard not whether they have gotten the goods, that they possess, well or evil: wherefore they esteem all those to be enemies, that in reason demand restitution of them, and declare that it belongeth not unto them, but that they have stolen it away from the Church. 
ibidem  Likewise afterwards: I doubt not, but if they were called to account, for the bestowing of such goods: and if it were taken out of their hands, as it was taken from Priests and Monks, 
ibidem  and given to such as should better bestow it: they would take pepper in the nose, & fall to playing the devils part. lastly, I put the case (saith he) that a whorehunter or bawd steal an honest man's wife, and the husband cometh and demandeth this wise of this russian that hath stolen her away: and revileth this Russian or Bawd, for the wrong that he hath done him, and goeth to law with him, whereby there ariseth great strife: I would ask of thee, who were in the fault? Either the husband, who hath had this wrong: or the Ravisher who hath played him this wicked prank? And the answer is thus framed: The whorehunter or bawd, hath as much reason to complain and be angry, as hath a thief or robber: which is called to account of thefts and robberies, which he hath committed, and which is called to judgement for the same.  
But I will come from Geneva into England: 
Admonitio 2. to the parlias. 15 7 2:  that you may perceive, what our chief disciplinary Reformers, do think of this matter. It is no better than sacrilege and spoiling of God (say the Authors of the second Admonition 157 7 2, to keep back any way the provision) which hath been made for the ministry. And the curse of God threatened by Malachi, to those that spoiled the Levites then: belongeth & will light upon our spoilers now, and upon them, in whose bands it is to redress it, if they do it not. The Author of the book, de disciplina ecclesiastica, speaking of Bishop's livings etc. saith thus: of many in these days, who under a pretence of zeal, do cry out for reformation. Haec orati● gratissima est nonnullis, qui suam causam agi putant, et iampridem haereditatem istam spe devorarunt. 
Fol. 94.  These words etc. are most acceptable to some, who think they tend to their profit, and have already in hope devoured this inheritance. For they thinking that we seek only, that Bishops might be spoiled, do expect thereby the like pray, that they got by the ruins of Monasteries. For as for religion they care not, what become of it, modò ipsi praedari possint, so they may wax welthyer by sacrilege & robbery: and would not stick (if it were possible) to crucify Christ again, ut tunicam eius sortirentur, 
ibid. fol. 87:  et vestimenta dividerent etc. But this our age hath many such Soldiers, many such Dionysians, who think that a golden gown is not fit for God neither in summer nor winter: and yet that it will serve them well at all times and seasons. Again, They had rather all religion were banished, that all opinion of worshipping & fearing God were abolished, that all faith in Christ, & hope and looking for everlasting life, were forgotten amongst men, 
Ibidem fol: 95.  then to maintain it with any penny of theirs. Yea further, they will not only give nothing to the maintenance of the ministry: but most unjustly scrape unto themselves, that which was liberally given by others: & spoil the Church, robbing her of her goods &c. But they must either restore it again, that the church may be provided-for of worthy teachers, or else make themselves guilty of the loss and destruction of so many souls, 
ibidem fol. 97.  as by their means are destitute of a preacher, and shall perish in their ignorance. And again: Let good princes not only not spoil the ministery themselves, or suffer it to be rob of others: but liberally according to the commandment of our Saviour Christ, see it maintained and provided for through their Kingdoms: nor suffer that which was once given to this end, to be prodigally spent & wasted, in aulicos luxus atque delicias; nor bestowed upon noblemen's servants, nor other innumerable sorts of so ungodly and intolerable abuses, by sacrilege & the church robbery etc. M. Cartwright also, in his last book very well allowing of the former man's judgement, and utterly misliking of such greedy cormorants (for so he termeth them) as gape after the pray, (at large before mentioned) writeth in this sort. Our meaning is not, that these goods should be turned from the possession of the Church, to the filling of the bottomless sacks of their greedy appetites, which yawn after this pray, and would thereby to their perpetual shame purchase themselves a field of blood. There was a book published, 
Supplicat. of the commonalty.  in the parliament time 1585. entitled, A lamentable complaint of the Commonalty. Wherein the authors have at large handled this matter. Know ye not (say they) That the unjust shall not inherit the kingdom of God▪ What greater injustice then to defraud God of his glory, the ministers of their right etc. How can we say that we love Christ? No not so much as Antichrist loveth the Devil. For Antichrist is bountiful to maintain his service; if the like liberality were used amongst us, without all doubt a great number would be stayed from passing the Seas to Room or Rheims to become jesuits. We read Leuit. 27. That nothing separate from common use may be sold &c. because it was holy unto the Lord. The which Law is not ceremonial but judicial: 
ibidem.  the equity thereof endureth to the Church for ever, & the violation of the same law, hath been horribly punished in former days; as appeareth by the examples of Achan, Nabuchadnezar, Balthasar, Ananias, and Saphira etc. And the like justice no man can escape either in this world, or in the world to come, that committeth the like offence. Upon that place of Mal. where it is said: That the spoiling of the Priests was the spoiling of god: Thus also they writ. 
ibidem  Hath not the whole nation of England spoiled the Lord in like manner, and rather more? Surely this is written for our learning, that we might know that things consecrated to God for the service of his church belong unto him for ever.  
A number more, of such speeches; I could allege out of their writings. But these may serve to let you know, that whatsoever in times past, any of their sort did seem to yield unto for a time, touching the alienation of Church-livings: yet this was always their purpose, to get them again into their own hands in the end. It had been a happy matter for the Church, if this lesson had been ever observed: Thou shalt not do evil, that good may come of it. Things had not then grown to such extremities: as they are brought unto in many places. When the Sea maketh a breach, it is hardly stopped: and a door once opened to such impiety; will be hardly shut again. And yet (you see) they do what they can to shut it, now that they perceive the very great falsehood, which they find in their own fellowship. Certain hypocritical brethren of the laity, have clapped them (as it seemeth) upon the shoulders, followed their sermons, set them at the upper end of their tables, and sought by all their strength to procure them credit & favour with the people: not that they cared either for them, or for Religion, or for Christ himself: but hoping that by the violent course, which they saw these men run into, the Bishops, & the rest of the Clergy; would be grown in short time to be so odious: as it would be a very small matter, to dispossess them of all their livings, whereof some portion might come to their shares. Which manner of policy now (you may perceive) these brethren have espied, & therefore they spare not (as you have hard) to set forth such hypocrites in their plainest colours, very lively & (in their opinion) truly.  
God of his infinite mercy multiply her M. days, that she may reign many and many years still over us. If it had not been, for her most princely and most religious care of the Church, the children of Edom, had long before this time greatly endangered it. But this I will say unto them: that if ever they obtain their desires (which I know they shall never do in her highness time) they shall not possess a penny worth of the church-good, which (I am persuaded) will not prove unto them, to be like the gold of Tholossa, whereof none had part, that ever prospered afterward. I could show some reasons of this my persuasion, but I am a man not very grateful to that sort of reformers. I will therefore spare that pains, and the rather, because their own masters hau● dealt plainly enough with them already. This only I will add, committing it to their discretions, to be considered off at their leisures. There was never any nation so barbarous, but it thought there was a God. Again, there was never any nation that thought there was a God, but it likewise acknoledged, that the same God had his priests to teach the people his will. Again there were never as yet (to my knowledge) any men in the world, but believing there was a God, and acknowledging his Priests, they have always either in truth, or at the least in show, depended upon their priests instructions, as touching the will & service of God. Which points being true, I would gladly know, of any Sacrilegious Disciplinarian, what sort of Priests they are, whose advise he followeth. Some he must needs follow, except he will profess himself to be in the number of those, that say in their hearts there is no God. Doth he follow the Priests of the heathen? why, they ever thought that it was unlawful for any man to spoil his God. Doth he follow the Popish Priests? There are no men (surely) that cry out more earnestly against Sacrilege. Doth he follow the council of any Priests which have embraced the Gospel▪ No Priest that feareth God will teach him so. Some Priests in this latter age have been mistaken. But if any did ever teach so, he may perceive, by that which I have said, that they have repent them of it.  
For now they tell all, who will be their scholars, that they may not endeavour to alienate the church-livinge from the ministery. Or if they will needs, under pretence of zeal and show of religion, seek to devour Christ's patrimony; then they do utterfly disclaim & renounce them, from being of their Disciples any longer.  
Then Zuickius assureth them: that they are but hypocritical christians. Caluin compareth them, (be they the Magistrates of Geneva, or of any other country) to cruel tyrants, and saith, they are the Pope's successors in theft and robbery. Beza is resolute, that God will be revenged of such persons, & telleth them, they are new thieves, that have entered in place of the old thieves. Viretus maketh them worse than friars & monks: & resembleth them to white devils. Travers saith in effect, that they are Christ's mortal enemies, and would crucify him again, for his coat, if they might lay their hands on him. Cartwright calleth them cormorants, and likeneth them to judas the Traitor: certifying them, that in spoiling of the Church, they purchase to themselves a field of blood. The whole commonalty of England, complaineth and crieth against them: that they hate Christ, that they defraud God of his glory, that they are (all the sort of them) no better than Achan, Nabuchadnezar, Balthasar, Ananias or Saphira: that the punishment which did light upon these church robbers, shall light upon them, either in this life, or in the world to come: and that they are to be reckoned amongst those unjust persons, that shall never enter into the kingdom of heaven.  
So as this is the point, which (as I said) I do commit unto the inward cogitations of all profane Church-robbers, uz. to think with themselves, what God they serve, and what Priests they are, that teach them such lewd doctrine: or if none teach them so, whether in taking so execrable a course of their own heads, they condemn not themselves in their own consciences. There is here no refuge for any such persons, that I know of, or any reply to be made against the premises. Except they will say that Barrowes God is their God, that Greenwood is their Priest, and that they are all of them, devoted to Greenwood and Barrow. Greenwood is but a simple fellow, Barrow is the man. And will sacrilegious persons become Barrowists▪ I easily believe it. Like will to like. When Barrow by roisting and gaming had wasted himself, and was ●unne so far into many a man's debt, that he durst not show his head abroad: he bent his wits another way to mischief, and is now become a julianist, devising by all the means he can possibly imagine, his hypocrisy, railing, lying, and all manner of falsehood, even as julian the Apostata did: how all the preferments, which yet remain for learning, Benefices, Tithes, Glebeland, Cathedral Churches, Bishop's livings, Colleges, Universities and all, might be utterly spoiled and made a prey for Bancrouts, Cormorants & such like Atheists. Well to conclude, come the spoil of the church hereafter, when for our sins it shall, many mischiefs and great confusion will follow it. The Church-livings, will serve but a few men's turns. The particular parishes in England may whistle after their parts of that pray: and so may our new masterships Eldership. There are examples in the world, where all the Church-livings are consumed by a few: and the parishes stand burdened as they were before. Marry if they should be then so overburdened with so many new payments, as I spoke of in the last chapter, they would never be able to endure it. And therefore it is very high time, that our zealous Disciplinarians, should inveigh against Church-robbers, and that the common people should likewise remember the points of Sacrilege and sacrilegious persons, which they have published to the world in their printed Supplication, against all the new julianistes and Atheists mentioned.   

CHAP. XXII. They take from Christian Princes, and ascribe to their pretended regiment, the supreme and immediate authority under Christ in causes Ecclesiastical.  
IN the beginning of the reformation of Religion in Germany, the learned men there, (opposing themselves very mightily against the Pope's usurped jurisdiction:) did very learnedly and soundly show and prove to their adversaries, the sovereign authority of Christian Kings and Princes, in causes Ecclesiastical, within their own dominions and countries. Which authority (upon the banishment of the Pope) as well there as after also in England, was both there and here united by diverse laws, unto the interest of their Crowns, and to the lawful right of civil regiment. This doctrine since that time, hath been so very thoroughly maintained, by sundry notable men, as Brentius against Asoto: Bishop Horn against Fecknam: Bishop jewel against Harding and many other learned men, against such other Papists as have taken upon them to impugn it: that I am persuaded, had it not been that new adversaries did rise & opposed themselves in the matter, the Papists before this time had been utterly subdued.  
For either upon the attempt in Geneva, for the erecting of the Consistorian government (which cannot endure any superior authority over it in causes Ecclesiastical) when Caluin and Viretus, were banished the City: or else upon their restitution, and after they had prevailed in their said attempt, the Ministers there, whether in revenge of their banishment, or lest their Magistrates should at any time to come, give ear to the aforesaid Doctrine, I will not say: but upon some such occasion, they did presently thrust themselves into this question. & that with such spiteful railing and bitterness, as though they had conspired with the Pope and his Proctors, against all other reformed churches, that (rejecting their pretended Discipline or new Papacy indeed) had submitted themselves unto the said lawful authority of Christian Princes in causes Ecclesiastical. And hereof it came (to speak the truth plainly) that Caluin could not abide, that King Henrye the eight should be termed, the head, or supreme governor in Earth of the Churches of God within his Dominions. And writing to one Myconius, how certain men in Geneva persuaded the Magistrates there, 
Epist. 54.  Ne potestate, quam illis Deus contulisset, se abdicaerent, that they would not deprive themselves of that authority, which God had given them: he termeth them (according to the Consistorian language) profane spirits and mad men: whom (saith he) if we (speaking of himself and his fellows) shall join together to encounter, and with a valiant and invincible zeal fight for that holy authority, (uz. Consistorian etc.) the Lord with the breath of his mouth will destroy.  

Epist. 47.  The said Myconius in like sort reporteth to Caluin from Basill: how some in those borders did write to the like purpose in the behalf of Christian Magistrates: alleging the examples of Moses, David, and other godly Kings, which (saith he in effect) is to make them Popes: and then addeth: quid si laici huiusmodi argumentis fuerint persuasi? what if lay men shall be persuaded by such arguments? Indeed, that will cut the throat of all your sovereignty. But of all others that have opposed themselves to Christian Princes in this matter: (besides Martin-Marre-Prelate and some such like companions amongst us) Viretus for railing, scoffing and biting, passeth and excelleth. Those that stand in defence of the Magistrates authority, he resembleth to white Devils: 
3. Dialogue of whi●e Devils. G. 7,  and saith, They are false Christians, though they cover themselves with the cloak of the Gospel, and the reformation of the same. And again: The Ministers, that have forsaken the Romish Church, in seeking to get the Magistrates and people's favour against the Pope, Priests, and Monks, have so despised the state of Priesthood, 
I 3.  and Ministry of the Church: and so magnified the state of the Magistrate, that they now feel the fruit thereof: he meaneth that the goods of the Church are thereby gone and wasted.  
Further saith he: 
I 4.  they thought it a goodby reformation in the Church, to abolish all the Canons and decrees, with the good Statutes, which the ancient Fathers and Doctors had ordained, to maintain good Discipline in the Church. They have put all into the Magistrates hands, and have made them masters of the Church: which (he termeth) to be nothing else but the changing of the Popedom: the taking away of both sword from the Pope, and giving them to Princes: the everthrowing of a spiritual Pope, and setting up a temporal Pope: which under another colour, will all come to one end. 
I 4.  Nay he taketh upon him to prove: that these Temporal Popes, 
K 2.  (as he termeth them) are more to be feared (if they take root) and will be worse the● the Spiritual Popes: 
K 3.  and that so the old Popish ●yr 〈◊〉 is not taken away, but only changed and disguised. And his reasons are. First, that the old Pope had not the Temporal sword in his own hand to punish with death, but was fain to pray aid of the secular power, which the ne●e Pope's need not to do. Secondly, that the old Popes had some regard in their dealings, of Councils, Synods, and ancient Canons etc. but the new Popes will do what they list, without any Ecclesiastical order, be it right or wrong. thirdly, because it chanceth oft, that these new● Popes have neither learning nor knowledge: and yet these shall be they that shall command Ministers and Preachers what they list, on pain of their sword and ministery, and shall appoint them laws touching their estate and ministry, and likewise to the whole Church.  
Give him also the hearing a little further I pray you, Who so useth such means to reform the fault of the Pope: 
K ●.  doth not reform the Church, but deform is more than it was before, etc. This I dare say: that I see already in some places, that, under title of reformation by the Gospel, some christian Princes have in ten or twenty years usurped more tyranny, over the Churches in their Dominions, than ever the Pope and his adherentes did in six hundred years. And lastly: If there be any Magistrates in these days, which under the title of authority and power that God hath given them, 
K ●.  etc. will make the Ministers of the Church subject unto them, as the Pope hath made them subject to him, and his, etc. the same do verily set up a new Pope, changing only his coat and mask.  
And thus far Viretus in his third Dialogue of white Devils: which was not written (I fear) by the instinct of any good spirit: nor without some evil direction, translated into English of purpose to seed the seditious fire, that our turbulent Copper-smiths, (following this D●sciplinarie tract,) have kindled already amongst us. I have omitted his earnestness in the behalf of his own and Caluins' Discipline: that the authority (thus denied to Princes) might be yielded to them, and their followers: and that all men (both Princes and others) would be content to submit their necks under that yoke. Which were to make Princes (saith Erastus truly) quasi carni●ices: 
Farrago p. 36.  as it were the executioners only of their pleasures, quemadm●dun● in Papatu factum videmus, as we see it practised in the Papacy▪ and in truth is nothing else, but (that I may use their phrases) to banish one Pope, and admit of thousands: or to deliver their Sceptres from the tyranny of the old Pope, and to subject them to the tyranny of these new Popes, 
T.C. Beza. Vrsious. De iure regn● apud Scot  even to excommunication as Cartwright with his English crew do affirm) and so consequently to deprivation or death, as Buchanan the Scottish Consistorian teacheth.  
My purpose is only in this place, to make it known: from whence our brotherhood, have furnished themselves, with their invectives against the authority of Princes in causes ecclesiastical: and that whatsoever they pretend in words, yet they are of the same mind; that Viretus is, if they durst so plainly utter it. Or if they be not, let them confess in print, that the premises cited (out of his said dialogue) are false: and then for that point, let them be credited. But that (I am persuaded) they will never do. I am sure if they should: that besides their opposition with Geneva, they should also recant their own assertions: which directly exclude the civil magistrates from dealing in ecclesiastical causes. As for example: The 
a Adm. ●  whole government of the Church is to be committed to Ministers, Elders, & Deacons. The 
b Thes. mar. 12  church is now to the worlds end to have no other offices in it, but of pastors, Doctors, Elders, and Deacons. They 
c Dem: cap: 6.  which are no Elders of the Church have nothing to do in the government of the same. They divide 
d T.C. Discip. eecls: & all the rest.  the Church wherein any Magistrate King or Emperor is a member, into those which are to govern, uz. Pastors, Doctors, and Elders: and into such as are to obey, uz. magistrates of all sorts, & the people.  
Indeed Beza, will have the civil magistrate, one of the Church-officers. 
Cons: cap: 5.  But Cartwright, will not consent for his part, 
Art. 23.  to yield them so much. For (saith he) as Pastors cannot be officers of the common wealth; 
Lib. 2. pa. 420.  no more can the magistrate be called properly a church-officer. And in truth, what Beza granteth: it is in effect nothing, saving for a show, and to serve their own turns (forsooth) ut tranquillitatem ecclesiae procurent ●t tueantur, 
Beza. de presb Fol. 37. & 43.  Their office is to procure and defend the peace of the Church: whereas else where he agreeth with Viretus, ye may be sure: and in his Book against Erastus peremptorily affirmeth: That Princes have no more to do with matters of the Church, than Ministers have with the affairs of the common wealth. Which by their doctrine generally is none at all. But said I, he agreeth with Viretus▪ I might say rather with Cardinal Allen, and Saunders: if he be the author of the Book entitled, Vindicie contra Tyrannos: as it was reported. For there he saith that if any Prince shall challenge to himself both Tributes (that is, 
pag. 18.  authority aswell in Ecclesiastical causes as civil: as by the circumstances of the place it is evident) he doth, as if he would (like the old Giants) scale heaven, and surprise it, and is guilty of treason: and doth thereby forfeit his fee, that he holdeth no less than a subject or vassal shall, that usurpeth the kings royalties: and in this respect such kings are very often deprived thereof, much more justly, than a vassal or subject may be: insomuch as there is some proportion of comparison betwixt a vassal or subject, and his Lord: but betwixt God and the king, betwixt a wretched man and the Almighty, there can be no proportion at all.  
Furthermore, Cartwright and some others with him do affirm, 
T.C. lib. 2. pag. 411. etc.  that Kings and princes do hold their kingdoms and dominions, 
Def. of ecclesis. diset 167.  under Christ, as he is the son of God only, before all worlds coequal with the father: 
I.B. de policiu. et eccl. pag. a 63. ad 82  and not as he is mediator, the head and governor of the Church. Whereupon they do first build; that all Kings (aswell heathen as Christian) receiving but one commission and equal authority immediately from God; have no more to do with the Church, the one sort then the other. as being in no respect deputed for Church officers, under Christ; otherwise than if they be good Kings, to maintain and defend it. And secondly, that as God hath appointed all Kings, and Civil Magistrates his immediate Lieutenants for the government of the world in temporal causes: so Christ, as he is mediator, and governor of his Church, hath his immediate officers to rule in the Church under him; and those they say are no other, than Pastors, Doctors, and Elders, to whom they ascribe as large authority in causes Ecclesiastical.  
And all this (as I take it) they have learned of the Papists. For whereas master Harding saith, that the office of a King in itself is all one, every where: not only amongst the Christian Princes, but also among the Heathen; and thereupon concludeth; that a christian Prince, hath no more to do in the deciding of church-matters; or in making ceremonies and orders for the Church, than a Heathen: Cartwright, alloweth of his judgement, 
Lib. 3. pag. 162. 163:  and doth expressly affirm: that he himself is of the same opinion, 
Lib. 2. pag. 147.  professing his mislike of those, who teach another right of a Christian and of a profane magistrate. Whereat Traverse his scholar aimeth in like sort: when he saith in effect: that heathen princes being converted to the faith, 
Disc. of eccle. disc. pag. 148. 174.  receive no further increase of their power, whereby they may deal in causes ecclesiastical, than they had before. And lastly, it is no less agreeable unto their second assertion: that whereas the Papists say, the Pope with his Cardinals and Bishops are a true representation of the Catholic Church of Christ, under whom the Pope (being Peter's supposed Successor) is the ministerial and immediate chief governor of it here upon earth: now Cartwright and others do affirm; that every particular parish having such an Eldership in it (as they desire,) is a lively pattern and representation of the whole and catholic Church of Christ: 
T.C. lib. 1. pag. 147.  under whom (say they) their Pastors, Doctors, and Elders, are the ministerial and immediate governors by right, of every such Catholic parish-Church upon earth. And thus, (if I be not deceived,) that plainly appeareth, which was in the beginning of this Chapter propounded, uz. that for all their protestations, they derogate from Christian Princes, and arrogate to their Elderships, the supreme and immediate authority under Christ, in causes ecclesiastical.   

CHAP. XXIII. In the oppugning of Prince's authority in causes Ecclesiastical, they join with the Papists.  
THere is nothing will lightly anger our pretended Brotherhood more, then if ti be told them, that they deny in effect (with the common adversaries,) her Maisties' lawful style and prerogative Royal, in causes ecclesiastical. O● say they, we do not: we are slandered: we yield unto her Highness as much authority, as any King may lawfully challenge: we abridge her of nothing that the word of God alloweth her, and many other such ambiguous protestations they use to make, in this behalf. But they plav the deceitful sophisters: whom the Lord abhorreth. For these are some of their grounds. A man would think, that they had taken them out of Hosius. The 
a T.C. lib. 2. pa. 48.  Christian sovereign, ought not to be called the head under Christ, of the particular and visible churches within his dominions. No 
b T.C. lib. 2. pa. 157. 167.  civil magistrate hath pre-eminence (by ordinary authority) to determine of church-causes. No 
c T.C. lib. 2. pa. 165.154.  civil magistrate, in Counsels or assemblies for church-matters, can either be chief moderator, over-ruler, judge, or determiner. No 
d Admon. 2.  civil magistrate hath such authority, as that without his consent, it should not be lawful for ecclesiastical persons, to make any church-order or ceremony. No 
e Dis. Ec. f. 88  civil magistrate ought to receive, either tenths or first fruits of any ecclesiastical persons. The 
f T.C. lib. 3. pa. 154.  judgement of church-matters pertaineth to God: they 
g Li. 3. p. 153.  ought ordinarily to be handled by the church-officers: the 
h T.C. lib 3. pa. 154.  principality or direction of the judgement of them, is by God's ordinance pertaining to the ministery of the Church. As for the 
i T.C. lib. 1. pa. 192.  making of orders and ceremonies in the church, they do (when there is a constituted and ordered church) pertain unto the ministers of the church, and to the ecclesiastical governors: and that as they meddle not with the making of civil laws, and laws for the commonwealth, so the civil magistrate hath not to ordain ceremonies pertaining to the church. The 
k T.C. lib. 1. pa. 193.  ministers are to determine of controversies as they arise, and to make or abolish needful or hurtful ceremonies. Hereunto may be added that which is before observed: how he ascribeth the same right in church causes, 
T.C. lib. 3. pa. 162. 163.  to an infidel or profane magistrate, that he doth to any Christian princes: and of their mutual agreement with the Pope himself, in the manner of both their excluding of Christian magistrates, from having any thing to do, as under Christ, in his Church.  
Hitherto then concerning all these puritane-popish assertious (so much derogating from the lawful authority of Christian princes.) There is but only this difference betwixt them & the rankest jesuits in Europe, that what the one sort, ascribe to the Pope and his shavelings: the other do challenge to themselves and their Aldermen. Upon which occasion Cartwright, 
T.C. lib. 1. p. 193.  finding himself with his fellows ranged, to walk step by step with such a crew, taketh upon him, 
T.C. lib. 3. pa. 167.  like some dauber or bricklaier, to make a high wall (as he termeth it) betwixt the Papists, and them in this point. But God knoweth, it is a simple one, and so thin, that you may easily look through it, and discern them marching both together. First (saith he) the Papists exempt their priests from the punishment of the civil magistrate, 
T.C. p. 193.  which we do not. It is reason in deed, you should not. But if you do not, what do these things mean? The author of the second admonition desireth, that he and his companions may be delivered by act of Parliament, from the authority of the civil magistrates, 
Admon. 2. p. 61.  as justices, and others, and from their inditings and finings. Furthermore where Cartwright saith, that the authority of christian Princess cometh immediately from God, 
Lib. 2. p.  and not from Christ as he is mediator: and that the authority of the sword is the same ordinance of God, as well in heathen princes, as in Christians: doth it not follow, that in his judgement Christian princes have no authority over any of their subjects, but only as they are men, and not as they are either Christians or priests? If you think it doth not, than what T.C. wanteth, 
I.B. p. 82.  I.B. doth supply, and that in proper terms, as if it please you to peruse the place, it will appear unto you. Besides, there goeth a letter from hand to hand, written by certain gentlemen of Suffolk, to the Lords of her majesties council, wherein there is great complaint made in the behalf of certain of the brotherhood, as a matter fit to be reform: that being ministers they had at their assizes been presented, brought to the bar, indicted, arraigned, and condemned. Which dealing they term to be very hard, and tending to the utter discredit of the whole ministery, and profession of truth. So that of all likelihood (for all Cartwright's saying) both he and his fellows, could be well contented to be exempted from the civil magistrates.  
But let us hear the papists upon this point, or first part of Cartwrights' wall, and peradventure you shall find them as forward for their subjection herein, as he himself is, or at the least as small a difference betwixt them, as ever you saw, though it were between two twins Good 
a Harding against the Apo. 306.307  kings may put bishops and priests in mind of their duties, and bridle both their riot and arrogancy. The 
b Hard. ibid. 303.  prince, by the word of God, may make laws for the observation of both tables, and punish the transgressors. I do here presently offer myself, 
Fecknam to B. Horn.  to receive a corporal ●ath upon the Evangelists, that I do utterly think, and am persuaded in my conscience, that the Queen's highness is the only supreme governor of this realm, and of all other her highness dominions and countries, etc. And further, I shall presently swear, that her highness hath under God, the sovereignty and rule over all manner of persons, borne within these her highness realms, of what estate ecclesiastical or temporal soever they be. 
Saunders de vis. Mona. li. 2. cap. 3.  Fatemur, person as Episcoparun qui in toto orb fuerunt, Romano imperatori subiectos fuisse: We confess, that the persons of all the Bishops in the world, were subject to the Roman emperor. Rex praeest hominibus Christianis, verum non quia sunt Christiani, sed quia sunt homines, & quoniam ipsi episcopi sunt homines, episcopis etiam ea ex part rex praeesset; The king ruleth christians, not as they are christians, but as they are men, & because bishops are men, the king, in that respect, hath authority over them. Harding also confesseth, that if the causes be civil and temporal, (and all other causes our reformers do tie to their Elderships) Bishops may be convented before civil authority. 
Rejoinder fol. 379.  And it appeareth amongst all the learned Papists, 
Pet. Mart. de magi. sect. 23.  that the cheese prerogative they have had in this point, 
Hard. so. 229.  hath proceeded from the mere favour and good will of Christian Princes, 
Def. of the Apol. 664.  the rather to cover and keep from the people such faults in the Clergy, as might breed their contempt. Hitherto then, this wall riseth up but easily, especially if I should add in this place, the brethren of Scotland, their divinity for this matter, when they (not the Papists) gave the king and state occasion to make it (by act of Parliament 1584.) treason, 
Acts of parliament. ca 2.  for any man to refuse to answer before the king, though it were concerning any matter which was ecclesiastical.  
Now concerning the second part of Cartwrights' wall, 
T. C. 2.2. p. 164. lin. 29.  it is this: The Papists (saith he) will have the Prince to execute whatsoever they conclude, be it good or bad: we say that if there be no lawful ministery (as in time of necessity David did eat the show bread, which was otherwise lawful for the priests only to eat of,) that then the Prince ought to set order: and that when there is a lawful ministery, if it shall agree of any unlawful thing, the Prince ought to stay it. Surely you are very proper and right liberal sayers. Doth not your admonisher affirm, that if your platform were once on foot, all men must stand unto the determinations of your majestical church officers, (that I may use master Wakes term) except it should happen in some matter of faith, they should make decrees against the word of God? And (I pray you) if any such thing should happen, how could the king reform it, or (as you say) stay it? He judgeth their said orders to be erroneous, and perceiveth the mischiefs that do depend upon them: but how shall he redress and prevent them? Shall he compel the authors of them to assemble themselves together again, and to retract and condemn all such their decrees? They are of that humour (as experience hath told us) that it is unlikely they will be compelled to any thing. No, it were too great a disgrace for them to yield in any thing, that once they have broached, were it good or bad, but especially when it is decreed in any of their worshipful meetings. And beside, if the king should press them too far in such a matter, he might find them (peradventure) but very ticklish subjects.  
Cartwright, to shuffle up some blundering answer to these points, 
Lib. 3. p. 167.  saith: That if in such a case the church ministers should show themselves obstinate, and would not be advised by the Prince, they should thereby prove themselves to be an unlawful ministery, & that upon such an occasion the Prince might remove them. Removethen? How? By any ordinary authority, which you do allow to the christian magistrates in causes ecclesiastical? But you have told us before your mind herein. In effect, that it must be done by an extraordinary authority, even by the same right that David did eat of the showbread, which (were it not in such a case of necessity) none but the Priests might in any wise eat of. For otherwise (as it is before mentioned) where such a platform is in execution, as they seek for, the Prince hath not any thing to do (by their doctrine, God knoweth) either with placing or displacing of church ministers.  
Or, if Cartwright will say that I wrist his words to the worst construction, and that he meaneth plainly as purposing thereby to confirm (for his part) her majesties ordinary & supreme authority in those manner of causes: I am content he make the best of his own words that he can, whether he meant ordinary, or extraordinary authority, so that when he hath done, he will stand unto it. But let him say, what he is able, yet he hath a wolf by the ears, and shall never be able so to shift his hands, but that it will follow, that both he, and all the pastors, doctors, and elders, that are combined with him, are by his words both obstinate and unlawful ministers, except he shall withdraw this part of his wall, as being to weak to make such a separation from the papists, as he pretendeth.  
For, notwithstanding that the present government of the church of England, is established and confirmed by a national synod, with the general consent of the whole land, to be a most lawful & godly form of government, notwithstanding that her Majesty doth so think of it, and hath showed herself many ways (as by her acts of parliament, her proclamations, her sundry speeches, yea by the punishing & imprisoning of some certain persons) utterly to dislike of their pretended discipline, as being, in her princely judgement, a mere forgery, & vain conceit of busy & restless heads, contrary to the word of God, and ancient practice of all the godly churches in the world, for 1500 years: all these things I say, notwithstanding, yet they have railed, libeled, & raged against the said present government. They have, and do still, neglect, as well her majesties settled judgement, of the unlawfulness of their decreed platform, as also her laws, her pleasure, and many commandments, that they should desist hereafter, from that their erroneous devise, and submit themselves quietly to the form established. Nay, they are so far from yielding, in this point, to any authority of her majesty; whether ordinary or extraordinary, as that they have attempted by very unlawful and seditious means, to advance their purposes against her highness will, and do plainly give it out, that they will not desist, they will not hold their peace, they will have their desires, though they be driven to undertake such means for that end, as will make their hearts to ache, who are their cheese impugners.  
Stand now to your words, master Cartwright, if you meant plainly, uz. If the ministery shall agree of any unlawful thing, the prince ought to stay it: and then are not all the pack of you concluded, by your said answer, to be obstinate persons and a false ministery? If you have any refuge in the world, it is this; that whatsoever the said national council, the learned men's opinions that do impugn you, the laws of this realm, all the ancient churches, and her majesty relying upon them: whatsoever they altogether do think & judge to be lawful: you care not, or you are sorry for it, but all that notwithstanding, you are sure, for that you have decreed amongst yourselves, uz. that you have not therein erred, and therefore they must all bear with you, though you rest yourselves upon the truth of your own decrees, & give no place either to council, law, prince, fathers, learned men, or any other authority whatsoever, that maketh against you. And will not H.N. and Barow, will not all heretics & schismatics say as much? where is then the prince's authority you spoke of? For staying such kind of proceeding, what course shall he take? These ministers (as I said) conclude upon their own devices. The king considereth of them, and findeth them unlawful, but they deny it; what shall he do? Your refuge, Cartwright, is every Heretics refuge. If her Majesty, with all the reasons mentioned, cannot stay you and your sect, let never any king or civil magistrate look by any authority, which you do give unto them in causes ecclesiastical, to stay the fancies of any such fellows. But the substance of all their devices is nothing, but pretences of things that are not. And agreeable thereunto is this second part of Cartwrights' wall, (of the difference between him and the Papists) who in effect (for aught I see) are as frank to Christian Princes, even in this point, as either he or his fellows.  
Princes 
a Conf. Apol. par. 6. p. 317.  extraordinarily (saith Harding) have laudably intermeddled with Religion, as judges and rulers of spiritual causes. Good 
b Ibid. fo. 304.  Christian Princes ever took into their hands the careful charge or procuration of Churches, as pertaining to their duty. Good 
c Hard. ibid.  Kings and Princes do maintain true religion, and by the advise of their priests (when any great defections happen) do pull down the false. And where Cartwright doth charge the Papists to constrain their Princes for the keeping of their decrees, be they good or bad: although it be true in deed that they do so, and that those of his own stamp likewise where they reign, are nothing more favourable unto them, as far as their might will reach: yet as he doth in this matter prefer himself and his adherents before them, it is but a mere cavil. For the Papists holding this ground, that their Counsels and Popes, in such their decrees and conclusions (as it pleaseth them to make) cannot err: that being granted, it followeth of necessity, that every Christian Prince ought to put them in execution, and to punish those that shall oppose themselves against them. So that whatsoever they do impose upon the Church, they affirm it is good: even as Cartwright doth his discipline, which he would intrude upon us: both of them joining in this point, that as well Cartwright's new ministry, as the pope's priesthood, will be the judges of their own decrees, whether they be good or bad: and then what leave they to the Christian magistrate more the one sort then the other?  
Surely this wall riseth very slowly as yet, but peradventure the third part will be higher than the other two: when you have viewed them, judge. Our meaning is not (saith Cartwright) utterly to seclude the magistrate out of our 
T.C. 2.2. p. 164. & 167.  churchmeetings, for often times, a simple man & (as the proverb saith) the Gardener hath spoken to good purpose, etc. He may be assistant and have his voice in such assemblies. Out of question you deal very bountifully with your sovereign. But to help him in building this part of his wall, I will set down, what is the uttermost that he yieldeth to, herein; if he have not retracted the same, as afterward it shall be considered. The 
a T.C. 2.2. p. 157.  Prince may call a council of the ministery and 
b T.C. ib. 161  appoint both the time and the hours for the same. The 
c T.C. 2.2.162.167.161  civil magistrate is not utterly to be excluded from such assemblies as do meet for the deciding of church-causes and orders: he may be there assistant and have his voice, but he may not be either moderator there, nor determiner, nor judge. 
d bid. 156.  Neither may the orders or decrees there made, be said to have been done by the Prince's authority. And therefore in times past the cannons of counsels, were not called the Emperors, but the Bishop's decrees. 
e bid. 161.  Prince's may be assistant in counsels, and aught to defend the same assembled: if any behave themselves there tumultuously or otherwise disorderly, the Prince may punish him. The 
f T.C. 2.2. 157.  Prince ought to confirm the decrees of such counsels: to 
g T.C. 12.193.  see the decrees executed: and 
h T.C. 2.2. p. 156.  to punish the contemners of them. Thus hereof Cartwright, and now come in the papists.  
It 
a Saunders. lib. 2. c. 3.  was lawful in times passed for emperors to call counsels, to 
b Ibid.  appoint both time and place for the same. And master 
c Confut. Apol. par. 6. 309.  Harding confesseth, that princes may do so still by the advise of the clergy. Princes 
d Hard. fol. 217. fol. 314.  and their ambassadors, according to their estates, have most honourable seats in all counsels, may sit there as assistants, give their advises, make exhortations to the Bishops, to be very circumspect and careful, and in the end, may subscribe with them to the causes there decreed. But 
e fol. 313.310.315.  they may not sit there as judges, moderators, or determiners, 
f Hard. 317.  and therefore in their subscriptions they wront not as bishops did, definientes subscripsimus, but consentientes. Neither 
gard. 312  were the counsels called Imperatoria, but Episcopalia. Prince's 
h He Monarch. lib. 2. cap. 3.  may be assistant in counsels. Nay (saith Saunders) they may be precedents over Bishops in counsels, ad pacem & concordiam retinendam, ut nullum fieri tumultum permittant: tumultuantem vero custodiae mancipent, and cause such assemblies to avoid all delays. All 
i Hard. conf. Apol. par. 6. p. 317.  Christian princes ought to confirm the decrees of general counsels: to see 
k Saun. lib. 2. cap. 3.  the decrees executed, and to punish the contemners of them.  
Compare these places with Cartwrights words, and tell me what great difference ye find between them. But what if Cartwright (as I said) have retracted these points? then it must needs be confessed that the Papists do yield more to Christian princes in causes ecclesiastical, than the puritans.   

CHAP. XXIIII. Their disagreement in suppressing the authority of Princes in church-causes, and in the advancing of their own.  
IT appeareth in the latter end of the two and twentieth chapter, how by a fine distinction, of reigning under Christ as he is only God, and under Christ, as he is mediator: they first, would exclude all Christian princes from their lawful authority in causes ecclesiastical, ascribing no more unto them, then as if they were heathens, except it be to execute their pleasures, and to maintain them, which they say, is the duty also of all the heathen rulers: and secondly how by the same distinction, they lift up their own horns, as if it were so many pope's, challenging every one of them together with their elderships, to be Christ's immediate vicar's for church-causes, upon earth. In the substance of which doctrine although they do all agree, yet when they come to the particular grounds, whereupon they would gladly lay their foundations of it, there they are distracted, and do confound themselves. I mean not, to enter here any further into this matter, then as concerning the said distinction with the several branches thereof.  
Cartwright bestoweth sour leaves, 
Lib. 2. a. p. 410. ad. p. 419.  to prove, that no civil magistrate may be called the head of the particular church, within his dominion. And his chiefest reasons are drawn, from the parts of the distinction mentioned. Now, when he laboureth so much upon this word head, he knoweth that we mean thereby nothing else, but a chief authority: and he wrangleth of purpose, that whereas his opinion is direct, that no civil magistrate (as he is a civil magistrate) hath any office in the Church, he might dazzle the eyes of his reader, as though he could be content to maintain the right of the crown, and did only insist upon the word head.  
But to muster them together about the said distinction, Cartwright saith that our Saviour Christ, 
Lib 2 p. 411.417.  as he is the son of God only, or as he is only the Creator and preserver of mankind, coequal with his father, he is the governor of kingdoms and commonwealths, and not as he is the saviour and redeemer of mankind. But the humble motioner doth tell us from Scotland, another tale: peradventure upon the credit of the brethren there. 
Humble motio. so. 1.  Christ (saith he) hath all power and superiority above all principalities, either in heaven or in earth: he is Lord of lords, and King of kings, and the Prince of kings in the earth; he is Lord of all kingdoms and commonwealths, to dispose and rule them at his pleasure: not simply as he is the second person in Trinity, God above all; but as he is the son of God manifested in the flesh. Nay, he goeth further, and saith: that Christ hath all this authority, not only as he is both God and man, but that he hath it even as he is man.  

Lib. 2. p. 411.  Cartwright saith: that our saviour Christ in the government of kingdoms and commonwealths, and in the superiority which he hath over kings & judges, hath no superior. But if we shall believe the said motioner: he is as directly contrary unto him in this assertion, as he was in the former. 
F. 1.2.  For (saith he) our saviour Christ as he is King of kings, Lord of lords, and the ruler and disposer of all kingdoms of the earth: he hath received that authority of his father, and so hath it 1. Cor. 15.24. If it shall be marveled, that the humble motioner, peradventure some swain, in respect of Cartwright, dare thus presume to encounter with such a Goliath, especially having an whole army no doubt that will, and his vizgerent Travers, that doth already assist him: he may be easily satisfied, in that Beza on the other side (a man of far greater account in Scotland than Cartwright is in England) hath promised, and pawned his judgement, to back the motioner in these points. For he is wholly of the motioners opinion: Pater non nisi in persona filii manifestati in carne mundum regit. 
Annot. 10.5.6.22.  God the Father (saith he) doth not govern the world, but only in the person of his son manifested in the flesh. And again: he alloweth of the Fathers where they hold that Proprie humanae naturae respectu dicitur datum esse filio potestatem coeli ac terrae: when it is said that power is given to the son, of heaven and earth: it is spoken properly, in respect of his human nature received. The world is governed only by Christ, as he is manifested in the flesh: therefore not only (as Cartwright saith) as he is God. The government of the world is committed to the son of God, as he is manifested in the flesh: therefore (contrary to Cartwright) he hath therein a superior. Christ the son of God hath the government of heaven and earth assigned unto him properly in respect of his human nature, which he hath received: and therefore not only as he is the son of God coequal with the Father, as Cartwright affirmeth.  
So as, whatsoever either Cartwright, Travers, or any of their followers, shall enforce, against the authority of christian princes, in respect uz. that they with all the heathen governors do hold their sceptres immediately under christ, as he is God only, and not as he is their mediator: it is all but as untempered mortar, nothing fit for the purpose, as other of their friends do judge: and (as it seemeth by Beza in the place quoted) might peradventure (if it were thoroughly followed) touch them nearer than they are aware of, as men not fully persuaded of the most high and mighty prerogative of the person of Christ jesus. But let that go, I am glad to hear that christian magistrates may have something to do under Christ, as he is their mediator. And what if it may appear, that holding their government under him, as mediator, they may have some authority also under him, as he is the head of the church? I know, that would come quite came to Cartwrights' humour. Nevertheless it is reason, that men should be heard. The humble motioner affirmeth: that the Lord jesus hath the regiment and power over all principalities, 
F. 1.  either in heaven or earth, not simply as he is God, but as he is Christ, God and man, and so the head of the church. Let these places of scripture, Ephesians 1. vers. 20, 21, 22, 23. and Colossians 1. vers. 16, 17, 18, 19, 20. be effectually considered, (where there is speech of the great prerogative which Christ hath in the world, as he is head of the church) and they do wholly run that way. In so much as Caluin writing upon one of those epistles Ephes. 1. ver. 23. saith: 
Calu. in. ephes. 1. v. 23.  Nihil impedit quo minus de universali gubernatione accipias. There is no impediment, wby you may not understand it, of Christ's universal government.  
But more fitly to this purpose Beza, where speaking of Christ as the head of the Church, 
Confess ca 5. artic. 1. &. 23. de magistrate p. 556.  and of such officers as he hath appointed under him: he accounteth the civil magistrate for one, as before it hath been noted. But Snecanus is resolute, and accounteth them adversaries & Anabaptists, that shall deny it: affirming, that by rulers and governors, Rom. 12. and 1. Cor. 12. (where the Apostle speaketh of the body of Christ) the civil magistrates are understood, 
p. 557.  as well as their Aldermen: that they are to be reckoned inter officia ecclesiae: 
p. 668.  nay, inter dona ecclesiae, Ephesi. 4. though they be not there named: and, that, it is therefore great rashness to exclude the civil authority, out of the church, Nisihanc simul tollere velint, 
p. 557.  Except they mean to abolish it altogether. Indeed, I like this exception well, and so I do also of his opinion. For me thinketh, that if kings and princes be joint commissioners under Christ the head, with their pastors, doctors, and aldermen, assigned by the Apostle for the government of the church, they might be well content, and reckon it no disparagement unto the best of them, that the prince their sovereign, should bear the chiefest and the greatest sway amongst them.  
And all this maketh directly against Cartwright, even as though men of purpose should have studied to have disgraced him: which surely needeth not. For if his own writings were narrowly looked into, there is sufficient in them, to decipher him in his colours. 
Lib. 2. p. 470.  I marvel what he meaneth when he writeth, that a king was necessary for the Israelits, to shadow out to them the kingdom of Christ. Would he leave his scholars at liberty to reason, as the Apostle doth, when they should see their time? Christ is now come in the flesh, & being our high priest, hath performed the work of our salvation: therefore the priesthood of Aaron being but a shadow of Christ's priesthood, ought now to cease. And even so they, when they list: The kingdom of Christ, is now come unto us, & therefore the having of a king being but a shadow of Christ's kingdom, ought now to cease. Surely this cometh near to Snecanus conjecture, uz. Nisihanc simul tollere velint. But to omit surmises, & many such things else, which I marvel at in him, you shall find him so violent in this cause, as rather than he will grant, that Christian magistrates may be subordinate heads, or chief governors in church affairs under Christ their saviour, within their own dominions, he can be content to reason, as if he were a notorious Swinkfeldian, and meant to abolish all the ministers of the word, as needless instruments under Christ, for the building, feeding, and comforting of his church. For thus he argueth: 
Li●. p. 413.  that for as much as Christ is never severed from his body, nor from any part of it, and is able, and doth perform that wherefore he is called head, unto all his Church, therefore there is no need of any subordinate head over any particular Church, or (as he saith) there can be none. As if a man should reason thus: Christ is our saviour, our priest, our prophet, and our king: Christ is our shepherd, our doctor, and our archbishop: Christ is never absent from his church, nor ever will be: and he is able to perform that, wherefore he is called, our saviour, our priest, our prophet, our pastor, our doctor, our bishop, our archbishop, our archfeeder: therefore we need no priests, pastors, doctors, bishops, or archbishops, neither aught there to be any such subordinate, or ministerial means allowed of, or permitted for the said benefits, of building, teaching, and gathering of the church. The collections (in my opinion) are both alike.  
Again, by the same phrase of speech: that Christ, as mediator, is called by him elsewhere, the head of every particular church, 
Lib. 2. p. 416.  and in that respect every particular church is termed his body. So Christ as he is the son of God only (to grant him for a minute so much) being the head of every particular kingdom: it may be said, that every particular kingdom is his body. Now then, whereas he reasoneth thus, very gravely in his own judgement: If the church be the body of Christ and of the civil magistrate, 
Lib. 2. p. 412.  it should have two heads, which were monstrous. Why may not I in like sort make this inference? if the commonwealth be the body of Christ, and of the civil magistrate, it should have two heads which were monstrous: which collection being ridiculous (by his own phrase offspeech) his said argument, is also ridiculous. For my part certainly I do think that the word heard, as it is yielded to christian princes, signifying nothing else (as I said) but a chief ruler, I see no cause then, why it should be a more monstrous thing, for than to be subordinat rulers of the church under christ, then to see princes thrust down, and six or seven base persons, a malster, a brewer, a baker, a mason, a smith, a butcher, a tinker, and such like advanced, to that, so high an authority.  
Well▪ as our proverb saith: Be it as it be may, and that is no banning. If Princes will be thus dallied withal, let them for me, and they shall be the first that will repent it. But what should they do, when they hear their authority, so substantially impugned, by so worthy persons, with such invincible arguments, such demonstrations, such collections, such concurrency in their opinions, such concord, such notable agreement together, in their grounds, for that purpose? Indeed you will say so, when you shall see how, (after they have foiled princes in such sort as it hath been declared) they entitle themselves, and their wise and worshipful Eldermen to their authority. You cannot imagine men's bodies, to be faster tied together, with the strongest rope that ever was made of sand, than their minds, and judgements are fast linked, and united in this matter. As now it shall partly appear, after I have laid before you three or four of their new quirks, very pertinent to this place: some of them have been already touched, but you cannot hear a good thing too often.  
They affirm (if I can understand them) that every well ordered parish, 
Demonst. Mart. Thes. T.C. 1.2. p. 412.419.  having an Eldership in it, is the perfect body of Christ, & that Christ is properly to be called as well the head of every such particular body or church, as he is of the Catholic church. 
T.C. l. 2 p. 416. etc.  Against whom by the way I might oppose a chief divine of New stadium (a Consistorian town in the Palsgraves' country) who saith, that as the Church is called the body of Christ, 
Pezel. M. 7. par ob mel. p. 31.  it properly signifieth, Solos electos, the elect only, and that all particular churches, 
Ibid. p. 178.345.  as the members of the Catholic church, do make but one body of Christ: whereof he is to be called especially the head. But I will not stand upon these points, only I touch them that it might still appear how well they agree together. Then to proceed. The same men likewise affirm that every one of their mentioned well ordered parishes, is a representation, and as it were, 
T.C. l. 1. p. 147  a lively portraiture of the whole or Catholic church: and that singularum ecclesiarum idem est ius, every such parish Catholic church, 
Disc. eccl. sacr. pa. 1.  hath equal authority, no more one than another.  
And now I draw near to the pith of this matter. For as touching the government of every one of these particular bodies of Christ, or of every one of these demie catholic churches, they hold that (princes being justly dispossessed) their pastors, doctors, and aldermen, are by right, Christ's immediate and subordinat lieutenants, or vicar's general. But now, for as much as our saviour Christ (say some of them) is a priest, a prophet, and a king, and all in respect that he is both God and man, our only mediator and redeemer. Here beginneth a new skitmish, from which of these his dignities they must derive their interest, whether their said vicegerents are to challenge their sovereignty, from Christ, as he is a priest, from Christ as he is a prophet, or from Christ, as he is a king. For as the great learned clerk, that made the book of ecclesiastical and civil policy affirmeth, 
I.B. de polit. pa. 68  whosoever is to be called Christ's vicar, he must be so termed either in respect of all those his three offices, or of two of them, or of one at the least.  
It hath been commonly held heretofore, that Christ taking upon him the ministery of the gospel, to preach and teach the same, did ordain his Apostles and disciples, to join with him, in that part of his priestly office. In regard whereof, it hath also been defended, against the papists, that every lawful minister, is as much the vicar of Christ, or his substitute, to teach his people, as the bishop of Rome, and that they ought, all of them equally, when they preach the word, pray for the people, or administer the sacraments, to be received, heard and entertained, as Christ's ambassadors, Christ's ministers, even as though Christ himself in his own person, did presently here upon earth execute these offices. Besides, it is urged by the Counterpoizer, 
Countecp. pa. 12.  & many other, that Christ having translated the jews Sanedrim into his church, he hath appointed unto us for the jews priests, our pastors, and for their teaching levites, our doctors, etc. Whereby it followeth, that if the priests of the old law were Christ's vicar's, as he was their priest: the pastors ought so to be in the time of the gospel. But the excellent politian, 
I. B.  he useth the matter in such sort, as by no means the ministers of the word, may have any tenure of their offices, under christ as he is priest. Ne ipsi quidem pastores erunt Christi sacerdotis vicarij, quod tamen falso sibi persuasit papa diaboli vicarius. The pastors themselves shall not be Christ's vicar's, as he is priest, which office notwithstanding, the pope the devils vicar, took falsely upon him.  
The pastors (he saith) shall not be Christ's vicar's, as he is a priest. And then there is no remedy: They shall not. How shall they hold then, immediately of him? as he is a prophet. That is it. They are his substitutes or vicar's (saith he) only as he is a prophet. 
Ibid. pa. 74.  Did any man ever say so before? Surely not to my remembrance. 
Fenner. Theol. pa. 96.  Master Fenner in his divinity, perused by master Cartwright, and allowed of at Geneva, can find but two kinds of offices appertaining to Christ, uz. his priesthood, and his kingly office, and therefore he maketh prophesy a part of his priesthood. It is much what, also to the same purpose (and directly contrary to I. B.) that the divinity grounds printed at Geneva, do affirm by the mouth of one Abraham Henric, 
Thes. Geneu. pa. 219.  where they say: Pastorun ministerium ut olim sacerdotum, etc. The duty of pastors, as in times passed of the priests, consisteth in three things; teaching, administering of the sacraments, & public prayer. So as either I.B. must be content that ministers may be Christ's vicar's, as he is a priest, or else I see not how he will bestow them. You will say peradventure, that they may be Christ's vicegerents, as he is a king; but that (as I said) he will not endure. If any might be Christ's vicar's (saith he) as he is a king, 
I.B. deposit. pa. 70.  the Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Ministers and Doctors, might be his vicar's. At ne high quidem, quia rex est dicendi sunt vicarij. But they neither, are to be called Christ's vicar's, as he is a king. Well, some place they must have, there is no remedy. I dare say, you would smile, if it should so fall out, that all our consistorian ministers, will needs be Christ's substitutes, in that he is a king. Surely, I must tell you, it proveth so.  
For as touching I. B. they reckon him (I perceive) but a simple politian. Christ's kingdom, it hath been truly urged, is not of this world: & it is plea good enough against our bishops, but it holdeth not, to impair the estimation of our petit consistorian kings. A distinction will help them at a pinch. Christ's kingdom is not of this world, but it ought to be in this world. Do you not here desire to know what this kingdom is? That I may not keep you long in suspense, it is the Genevian Eldership, and even the very same kingdom (saith our counterpoizer) where of Christ spoke many times after his resurrection, 
Counterp. pa. 10.  by the space of sortie days, as the jesuits themseluss are compelled to confess. See the seducer. Who compelled the jesuits to say so? would not a man have thought, that this place had been urged by some protestants against the papists, for the overthrow of some especial points of popery, where upon after much pains the jesuits bade been driven in spite of their heads, to admit of the interpretation mentioned. But it is clean contrary: the jesuits do abuse this place of purpose, in the behalf of the Antichristian & Romish form of church regiment, & so doth the Counterpoizer, following the jesuits therein, for the setting forth of their Genevian papacy, or Regality.  
I could add here a number of strange sayings (whereof you shall here anon in some other chapters following) concerning this new presbiteriall kingdom. But now it is more pertinent, to make the point I have in hand, more apparent unto you. 
T.C. lib. 2. pa. 440.  Christ as a king, prescribed the form of ecclesiastical government, saith Cartwright, not as a priest, nor as a prophet, but as a king. With Cartwright his scholar Dudlie Fenner, 
Fenner. The. lib. 4. p. 110.  doth agree in this point, & setteth down the first part of his kingly administration to be about the building and continuance of the church by the officers appointed, 
Bez. annot. joh. 18. v. 36. Ep. 83.  Eph. 4.11.12.13. Master Beza also he runneth the same course: how Christ being a king, the head of the church, doth administer his kingdom. Per legitime vocatos pastors, 
G. Sonnij. op. Tom. 1. p. 399. etc.  by pastors lawfully called. And Sonnius in like manner affirmeth, that Christ doth execute his kingly office in the collection of the church, by the ministery of the word and sacraments, and by the internal government of his spirit, and the external of the ministery. Here is indeed, very royal preferment: for all the ministers of the word. But I marvel how the ruling elders do hold their authority? They are neither priests nor prophets, of likelihood then, they must be little kings. Well then, Christ is the king, the presbytery is his kingdom, & his immediate vicegerents they are all of them. What? Surely, by the due course of degrees (which are acknowledged) the pastors must be all of them (as it were) emperors, the doctor's kings, the elders dukes, and the deacons lords of the treasury, etc. And for the authority of every such kingdom, it must needs fall out to be very sovereign. For if every presbytery (as it is before noted) be properly to be called the body of Christ, and the true portraiture of the catholic church, & that every one of them, is of equal authority: now that the officers in them are Christ's immediate vicegerents within their own kingdoms, who shall control any of their doings, or whither should a man appeal, if he found himself injuried.  

De presb. p. 124  I remember master Bezas saying, That every eldership is the tribunal seat of Christ. Which is all one almost, with the assertion of some Romish parasites, that the pope and Christ, have but one consistory. They tell us of appellations from an eldership, to a classis, from a classis, to a provincial synod, from a provincial synod, to a national, & from a national, unto a general council. But as the papists do make every appellation from the pope, to be as absurd, and all one, as if the appeal were made from Christ, so must it necessarily follow, to be as untolerable to appeal from any consistory, it being (as it hath been affirmed) the tribunal seat of Christ, and the officers in it, Christ's immediate governors. And because it is pretended, that the regiment they speak of, is in the best perfection at Geneva, I would gladly know whither a man might appeal (upon occasion) from that eldership there. The churches of Bern, or Zuricke, have no more to do with the church of Geneva (they will say) than Geneva hath to do with them, or an eldership in Scotland, with another of the low countries. But I have tarried too long upon this matter, in collecting upon their contrary assertions. Therefore to conclude, I would wish all christian and godly magistrates, that have as yet in their hands, the lawful authority in church-causes, which belongeth unto them by the word of God, to keep it still, until at the least these disciplinary devisers, be fully resolved, whether we must account them priest, prophets, or kings: priests, if they be Christ's substitutes, as he is a priest: prophets, if they be Christ's substitutes, as he is a prophet: and kings by the same propriety of speech: if they be Christ's immediate substitutes, as he is a king. And so I will go to the next chapter, whereby you shall perceive more particularly, that (call them as ye list) they challenge authority, like princes, or rather pope's, to deal in many matters.   

CAP. XXV. In what causes more particularly, their elderships are to deal, as they pretend.  
YOu have heard before, 
Cap. 15.16.17.  of certain of the several and joint offices of their counterfeit churchaldermen: and likewise in the chapter, how they challenge to themselves, in their elderships, the whole government in all church-causes. Now for that it might be doubted how far these words, Church causes should extend: they have taken great pains to clear their meaning in that behalf, and so have used the matter (to my understanding) as that they have left out no one cause, of what nature soever, but that either directly, or indirectly, by hook or crook, they have brought it under their lee, and with-within their compass. Read their sayings, and then judge as you see cause.  
All crimes (saith Knox) that by the la of God deserve death, 
The order of excom. in Scotland. Ae. 2  deserve also excommunication: as wilful murderers, adulterers, sorcerers, witches, conjurers, charmers, givers of drink to destroy children, open blasphemers, as deniers of the truth, raylors against the Sacraments, etc. And how will they proceed in the execution of this censure, upon such manner of sins: the same order doth specify. A superintendant must direct his letters of summons to the parish church, where the offender dwelleth: or if the offender have no certain dwelling place, then to the chief town, and best reformed church in that diocese, where the crime was committed, appointing to the offender, a certain day and place when & where he shall appear before the superintendant & his assessors, to hear that crime tried, as touching the truth of it, and to answer for himself, why the sentence of excommunication should not be pronounced against him.  
Here are then new summons, and new citations. Here is authority challenged, not only to appoint such offices, and to use such jurisdiction: but (that which seemeth strange to me indeed) to try a murderer, and such like offenders, as (touching the very facts) whether they committed them, or not. Do they impanall a jury think you, as we do in England, for trial of the fact? or are the elders of the consistory judges of the facts, as they be of law? That is not expressed. But what if the party upon his summons appear not? 
Ibid.  That is no great matter. Inquisition being taken of the crime, he is the next Sunday to be excommunicated: not for his contempt in not appearing, but for the very fact itself, as in their form of excommunication in such cases, it is expressed. For the inquisition of the crime taken in his wilful absence, shall be a conviction for his soul: let his body escape the temporal magistrates hands as it may.  
This is round dealing. A man is condemned of murder, and never heard: & for sitting, but of one citation in a matter of life and death, out goeth their excommunication? Call they this, proceeding after the new discipline? But to follow this case to the end. It happeneth, that this murderer is afterwards pardoned by the magistrate, but yet though he profess repentance, he may not be received till after forty days of trial, and until he hath satisfied the kindred and friends of the man that was slain. You may say, what if they will not be satisfied? That I warrant you is provided for. 
Ibid.  Then ought the church to put moderation to the unreasonable, in case the civil magistrate hath not so done before. It is very well, what the king will not, they may. Besides, when it is said, that the church ought to put such a moderation: you must understand that except the parties do agree to be so put, out flieth again (as I suppose) their foresaid slippery censure.  
Again, 
Ibid. A. 6.7.  for all other offences that fall not under the civil sword, and yet are slanderous and offensive to the church, as fornication, drunkenness used, swearing, cursed speaking, chiding, fight, brawling, and common contempt of the order of the church, breaking of the sabbath, wanton & vain words, uncomely gestures, negligence in hearing of preaching, or obtaining from the Lords table, when it is publicly ministered, suspicion of avarice or of pride, superfluity or riotousness in cheer or raiment, etc. All these likewise do come by certain degrees, within the compass of their censures: all according to the word of God, you must suppose, or else you do them wrong. Unto these may be also further added, 
History of the church of Scotland.  ministers apparel, women's lascivious, dissolute, or too sumptuous attire, either publicly or privately, dancing, all games that bring loss, stageplays of all sorts, haunting of taverns, or tippling houses, all inordinate livers, and all such like matters, according to the discretion of the eldership, cuirelinquenda sunt, whereunto they are to be left. From which discretion, it proceeded (as I take it) that for some disorders committed in Edinburgh, 
The Hist. of the church of Scotland. pag. 527.  about a Robin-hood, which the provost and bailiffs would have stayed, the whole multitude were holden excommunicate. But yet I have not done with these causes. They grow upon me, more and more. And it is no reason, that our own brotherhood of England should be pretermitted. They (uz. the elderships) shall suffer no lewd customs (saith the admonitioner) to remain in their parishes, 
Admon. 2. pa. 46.  either games, or otherwise. You know their meaning. Maipoles, Alice, maigames, moricedances, all must down. How doth Robin-hood stick in their stomachs? Besides, all that have lived with offence to the congregation, 
Adm. 2. p. 46.  although they have suffered the punishment of the la for it: yet because they offended thereby both God & the church, they are within the limits of the elderships, & to be censured by them. The demonstrator is also very bountiful. The office of the church governors (saith he) is to decide controversies in doctrine and manners, 
Cap. 15.  so far as pertaineth to conscience, and the church censures. That is, if any shall refuse their said decision, they will not (indeed) whip him or hang him, (those are civil punishments.) But so far as the church-censures will reach, have at him. Will he run to trouble his neighbour, either to the Chancery, to the king's-bench, or common pleas, & may have both conscience and justice of his eldership at home? Such a fellow shall pay for it. It is wisely therefore considered of the humble motioner, where he telleth the lords of her majesties privy counsel, 
pa. 75.  that the church is to censure such a party, who is apparently troublesome and contentious, and without reasonable cause, and upon mere will and stomach doth vex & molest his brother, to trouble the country. Apparently troublesome, that is, apparently to their conceits: without reasonable cause, uz. to be approved by them. And how can they know how reasonable the cause is, except they examine both the fact, and be skilful also, what the law of the land is in such a case? Must he bring his learned council to their Alderman's bar, to prove his cause reasonable? but what should I move such a trifling question? Well, pardon me for it, and to make you an amends, you shall hear Cartwrights' opinion of these matters. 
T.C. l. 2. p. 68  It is this, uz. that every fault, that tendeth either to the hurt of a man's neighbour, or to the hindrance of the glory of God, is to be examined and dealt in by the orders of the church. This brings before their consistory of elders, all matters of right, all pleas real and personal, and all pleas of the crown, as I imagine.  
Snecanus also saith, 
De discip. eccles. p. 460.  Quoduis peccatum, etc. Every sin is here to be understood both against our neighbour & against God howsoever it be committed by force or by fraud, by words or by deeds, purposely or ignorantly, manifestly or secretly. But yet the Demonstrator goeth further. Hitherto we have heard nothing to purpose, but only of sins committed. But he will not abate you an inch of all the sins, which the schoolmen do call sins of omission. 
Cap. 18.  Whatsoever is enjoined (saith he) as a duty to be done by every christian, if he leave it undone, he is to be compelled by the governors of the church to do it. It is also of a marvelous reach, that the admonitioner speaketh of, when he affirmeth, that by this their discipline every man may be kept within the limits of his vocation. Peradventure it will be a harder matter than they look for, to be able to discern of the limits of every man's calling. But if they will needs take so much upon them, because they have once said it; then if any man, be he prince or subject, exceed the limits of his calling, where their elderships are established: it tendeth surely to their condemnation, that may reform him, and do it not.  
But it may be, that some will say, we have heard of Knox, of Danaeus, of the Demonstrator, of the admonitioners of Snecanus, of Cartwright, and we know not whom: but what saith Beza of this matter? we would be glad to hear him. I cannot blame you, for you shall be sure that he will come in with one trick or other beyond his fellows. You have heard all the sins (almost) that are reckoned up already, as falling within the bounds of the elderships' jurisdiction. But if we shall believe Beza, and speak indeed properly, as he would have us: no sins (as they are sins) do belong to the elderships to be dealt in, 
De excom. p. 46.49.  but as they are scandala, that is, as they offend the godly consciences of God's children. For example: I hear a man blaspheme God, or break any other commandment of the first table; or I hear or see him commit some sin against the second table, vz against his neighbour, as against myself by doing me some injury, either in word or deed, either in my goods, or in my name, now in this, there are offered me 2 kinds of injuries, the first & the chiefest is the grief of conscience, that I conceive in respect, that such a man hath broken God's law, & thereby not only wounded my heart, but given an ill example, which may peradventure corrupt others. The second injury is, by his hurting me in my goods or fame. Now forsooth in this second respect, I may go to the civil magistrate, but may not come to the eldership, by any degrees, but only in the first respect, uz. because my neighbour in hurting of me hath violated the law of god, & so wounded my conscience. Neither must I complain to the eldership, with any mind either to have him punished, or to have my injuries recompensed, but only to bring him to repentance, & to seek the good of his soul. By this devise you may perceive that although he seem in words to dissent from the rest that have written more bluntly, yet in effect he agreeth with them, or rather hath increased their pretended jurisdiction. For by this means, they may not only take upon them to enter into every action, but they would bind every particular man, whosoever, to become an informer to their court. Besides, whereas he saith, that in the said second respect, we may go to the civil magistrate, it is but a mist that he casteth before men's eyes. For be it in a matter of words, that I pretend myself to be grieved, and so complain to their eldership: Beza & all the rest do hold, that the party cannot pass their fingers, until he have submitted and reconciled himself unto me. And in such a matter who will desire more? For if he look for damages in money, he will be held cruel. And than what is left for the civil magistrate? Again, my neighbour pretending that I have done him injury, either in his lands, goods, or fame, chargeth me with the particulars, which being indeed false, he saith are true, whereupon my conscience being wounded, that he should sin so horribly against God, first by lying, & then by justifying his lie: I complain to the consistory. The matter is heard, I am cleared. And except he submit himself both to ask God and me forgiveness, the censures of the church proceed against him: and so that way also he is debarred from the benefit of temporal law, in so much as he can have no colour to begin suit again, for that, wherein he hath acknowledged me to have been by him wrongfully charged. What is here then left for the civil state to deal in? Furthermore in a matter of injury done unto me in my lands or goods: I pretend to that court, that such a man hath wounded my conscience, in breaking God's commandment, by such his injury offered unto me: 
Beza. de excom. pa. 52.  well, it may be the party will deny it, and then my proofs must be produced. If I justify my complaint, the offender must likewise in this case submit himself unto me, and acknowledge the injury. If he will not so do, the censures proceed, and so he is debarred (as it is said before): if he do, then on the other side, I must of necessity, forgive him the offence which grieved my conscience, or else I also do come within their compass. Well, I do therefore forgive him: and shall I nevertheless prosecute him in form of law, for the injury done to me? Hereunto master Beza saith thus: 
De excom. p. 57  Vix potest condonâsse iniuriam dici, qui de privata iniuria fratrem non contentus primùm arguisse, deinde adhibitis testibus admonuisse, ad magistratus usque tribunal illum reluctantem persequitur. He can scarcely be said to have forgiven an injury, who not contenting himself to have first reproved his brother for his private injury, and to have admonished him before witnesses, doth notwithstanding draw him (against his will) to the magistrates seat of justice.  
But be it as he confesseth afterward, that in such a case a man may go to the law, to omit that he shall thereby incur the high displeasure of these Rabbis, (which he shall be sure to have sticking upon him until they can wait him as good a turn) yet I say again, what is left to the magistrate? The injury is confessed afore. There shall need no trial of the fact, where so many witnesses may be used, to prove his confession afore, if now he should deny it. All that the magistrate hath to do, is to set down what recompense I shall have for my said injury, and to tax my charges. If you say nay, he will hear the cause again. Indeed I confess he had need to do so. But so both I and the party should be doubly charged and troubled. Besides, that course would turn to the utter discredit of the presbyteries, that their dealings, fitting in the seat of Christ, should come to be scanned by those, that are but human ordinations. For so some of them by colour of the Apostles words do debase magistracy. And therefore peradventure they will think it meet, that upon certificate from them, the magistrates should so pronceed to adjudge me a recompense, and to rate mine expenses without any further ado. Some such thing it is, (though not in this very case) which the ministers of the low countries have desired. Thus a very grave man borne amongst them, reporteth of this matter. 
A. S.  Ministri nullam habent coërcendi potestatem, nec habere volunt. Tantùm cupiunt, ut magistratus puniant eos, qui ipsorum mandatis parere detrectarent. Quod nunquam sunt facturi, nisi prius de tota causa legitime recognoverint, actoribus aut accusatoribus ministris consistorij. Quod seniores & ministri alienum à suo ministerio esse similiter judicant. In haec absurd a inciderunt, propter reiectam episcoporum authoritatem, etc. The ministers there have no power to correct any man, neither will they have any. Only they desire of the magistrates to punish such, as should refuse to obey their commandments, whereunto the magistrates will never yield, except they may take notice of the whole cause again by ordinary course of la, the ministers of the consistories making themselves either plaintiffs or accusers. Which the elders and ministers do judge, not to be agreeable to their ministery. And they are fallen into these absurdities (he had also before named some other) through their rejecting of the authority of bishops. You see their desire in this case, and it may (in mine opinion) be stretched to the former. And then (as I have showed) through scandals, offences, consciences, and I know not what pretences, challenges, and counterfeit prerogatives, the jurisdiction of their elderships, will be so large, as the civil magistrates, judges, and lawyers, shall not need to be greatly troubled.  
These things, with all the premises of this chapter considered, I dare say, you long to know by what authority they challenge to deal in all these so many, and so infinite causes. And to satisfy your longing, the learned discourser shall first speak his mind: 
pa. 87.  Our saviour Christ (saith he) in the word (church) alludeth to the jew Sanedrim, which had the hearing and determining of all difficult matters amongst them: the like whereof, he willed to be established in his church, for administration of government. What, you will say, but weighty matters? How come they now, to all matters: even to Robin-hood, maigames, and may poles? Ye say truly, but Cartwright will supply this defect. For indeed this discourser shot many bows too short. This was the policy and discipline of the jew, 
T.C. l. 1. p. 183.  and of the synagogue (saith he) from whence our saviour took this and translated it unto this church: that when any man had done any thing that they held for a fault, that then the same was punished and censured by the elders of the church. And M. Beza. 
Praef. ad lib. de excom.  Quod ius fuit Synagogae sub lege, cur non valeat in ecclesia sub evangelio, authore Christo, Math. 18.17. non video: I see not why the same authority, that the Synagogue had under the law, should not continue now in the Church under the Gospel, according to Christ's institution in the chapter mentioned.  
Indeed if Christ have ordained any such matter, it is good reason it should be so. But because they will needs bring us to the jews: let us see what pretty tales, they will tell us of those times.  
They say, (and it is true) that the Priests were the Lawyers of the land. 
Polit. pag. 129. Beza de excom. pag. 104.  And would they be so now? If the same policy continue, why should they not? They tell us further, that in civil causes, when there did arise any doubt in law amongst the judges, 
Beza de excom. pag. 104.  the decision thereof did belong to the Priest's jurisdiction. If that also were a good policy, and that it be continued by Christ: then I see no reason, why it should not again be now established in all places. They say, that the 17. of Deuteronomie, from the beginning of the eight verse, unto the end of the thirteenth, doth entreat of the ecclesiastical Senate: where it is said: 
T.C. l. 2. p. 17.  that judgements between blood and blood, between plea and plea, 
Beza de excom. pag. 104. 105.  etc. did belong to the priests, and that it was death for any man not to rest in his determination. If this policy be in like manner continued: who then in the commonwealth, but the ecclesiastical Elderships? Matters of blood, and of all pleas? Who would not take those points, to be more civil causes? It is true. But they tell us, that when the priests dealt in any of those causes, they dealt not in them civilly, 
●e●a de excom. pag. 106.  but ecclesiastically. It will trouble a man to find out their sleights. But one example to this purpose you shall have.  
When such a doubt did rise (saith Beza) Non de facto; 
Beza de excom. pag. 104.  Not of the fact, (for that was mere civil) but Deiure; what the law was in such a case: then the Ecclesiastical Eldership determined thereof: and that done, the civil judge gave sentence of the fact accordingly. As though there should be two Courts in Westminster hall: one for matters of fact in civil and criminal causes, consisting of temporal judges: and another (for matters of Conscience, for all sorts of offences, and for matters of law) consisting of ecclesiastical persons, some Pastors and Doctors, assisted in solemn manner with their church Aldermen. Suppose then I pray you, that you are by chance in Westminster hall: such a difficult matter in law (as is pretended) cometh before the judges of some fact, whereupon down they come from their seats, and go to the Elders. May it please your Masterships', there is such a cause before us, which seemeth to be a foul matter, if it fall out as the bill or declaration is laid: what is the law in this point▪ The Elders consult together, & resolve them. The judges give them a leg, return to their places, the cause falleth out according to the complaint, and so they pronounce the sentence, as the Aldermen taught them. Suppose (I say) all these things, & then you perceive what Bezaes' distinction meaneth, & with what good discretion, both he and his followers, will needs make two Courts of that, which was but one. It is a very great marvel, that any wise men should insist upon these so apparent and childish fooleries. In all the Courts (I think) in the world, since there have been any: the same that were judges of the law, were judges likewise to try the fact: except it be in England. And yet here also even in the trial of facts by twelve men, we have not two Courts for one matter: but all the evidence, witnesses, and whatsoever else, that doth appertain for the finding out of the fact, are brought before the judges of the law. They sift and examine every point and circumstance, that so the jury may be fully informed: and they are indeed the chief directors (as it is meet) in the whole matter. And as it is, and hath been in all the world: so it was in all the Courts appointed, either by Moses, or by King jehosophat in jewrie.  
It is true, that all difficulties that did rise amongst the judges of inferior Courts in the country, whether they were of law, or facts: and likewise, all appellations from lower Courts: did belong to the high Court at jerusalem, to be heard and determined. But doth that prove one Court to be two▪ Nay, it is most apparent, that if they will needs fetch their Elderships from the jews Synedria: they may challenge to themselves aswell the civil government of the commonwealth, as the ecclesiastical of the church. For so was the form of government then, according to the testimonies of scripture, of all the jews, the Rabbins, the Talmudists, josephus, & others. And I greatly do suspect it, that in time they will begin to claim it: I find them so wavering and uncertain in this matter. As yet; fi●, they cannot abide to hear of it. But observe them how they stagger. Beza in his book against Erastus, whereunto he himself, and seventeen other Ministers of Geneva subscribed, and which was the book indeed, that Erastus did confute: both he & they all of them, were in doubt of this point: An verò civilem aliquam comenrtionem habuerit ex iure, ecclesiasticum illuà apud judaeos synedrion, definire vix possumus: habuisse tamen, posterioribus saltem temporibus, negare nec si velimus, possumus, etc. We can scarcely define, whether the ecclesiastical Eldership amongst the jews, had any authority of right to use civil punishments: that it had (at the least in the later times, if we would deny it, we cannot.  
It is very well said. And then I trust it will be confessed; that, as long as that authority continued, he had been a fond man, that should but once have dreamt of the former distinction of making one Court two: uz. the one of fact, and the other of law: and of dealing in civil causes ecclesiastically, or I know not how. Yea (saith Beza) but though they had such authority, probabile est, it is probable, that it was procured, ambitione maximorum pontificum, by the ambition of the high priests. How like you this▪ When he is so pressed both by scriptures, and with other authority, that he cannot choose but confess the point in question: see how substantially he would seem to avoid it, with his Theological demonstration, Probabile est. But that I do the man no injury, he hath an other shift of descant to help himself herein. Though they had any such authority, exiure, by the law (saith he) yet, Hoc nihil ad nos, It doth not concern us. Why▪ if the same policy that the jews had, be continued by Christ in his Church: how cometh it to pass, that this doth nothing concern us▪ It is abrogated. Belike; even as much, and as little of the policy must continue, as is in force at Geneva. But who did abrogate it▪ Christ Where? When he said, Reges gentium dominantur eyes, vos autem non sic: The kings of the nations bear rule over them, but it shall not be so with you.  
They seem to be much beholden to this piece of scripture: it serveth them unto so many purposes. But if they presume in this sort upon the continual favour of it: certainly it will leave them, when they least suspect it. If the jews Eldership, had to deal in civil causes, & that Christ had purposed to have continued that form of government in his Church, in all points saving in that: he would have said thus: The priests of the jews did bear rule over them, and had to deal in civil causes, but it shall not be so with you. It is to be wondered are; that Beza should content himself, with such unlikely, & so very improbable conceits. But it seemeth, that upon some better advisement with himself, and his fellow subscribers: they grew all of them ashamed of these shifts. 
Beza de excom. pag. 106.  And therefore in his book of excommunication (which he lately published) he is become in some sort another man. Now both he, & his said felow-Ministers, are out of doubt, Ex clarissimis testimoniis, By most clear testimonies; 
Pag. 109.  that the authority which the priests had in civil causes, was gotten by bribes; Ex licentia & jurisdictionis perturbatione; through the liberty and confusion of those two distinctiurisdictions: which confusion, Christus nunquam approbanit; Christ never approved.  
Ah, very well: though they have turned over an other lease; and for Probabile est, do brag of most clear testimonies: yet, concerning Christ's words, they are gone backward. For his commandment, Vos autem non sic: is now turned, as you see, into Nunquam approbavit: which carrieth with it no other force, than is ascribed to a negative collection. But for all their most clear testimonies, he must have better eyes than mine, that can discern any thing by them, saving their inconstancy: and that there is cause, to suspect thereby (as I said,) that when their credits are increased, they will not greatly stick to break the bounds of their said distinctions, & deal as well with matters of fact, as of law. For else, besides all the premises, what meaneth this new ground of Divinity, published of late in print to the world, from Geneva? Civiles quoque lights, antequam Christiani essent magistratus (ut verisimile est) ex Apostolica doctrina, 
Thes. 83.  amicè & citra ullum ferè strepitum componebantur. The civil contentions, before there were any Christian magistrates, were compounded, as it is likely, according to the Apostles doctrine, by the Elderships, friendly, and without any suits of law.  
So as now, if this question were once determined: whether, that may be lawful, when there is a Christian magistrate, that is lawful to be done, when there is none: there should (as you see) be no more suits in law for civil causes in the land: their Elderships have entitled themselves unto them, and engrossed them all by right, into their hands. You will say; it is true, that they have done so indeed, if that question were resolved: but that point standeth upon an if. Nay, assure yourselves, it is passed peradventure: they would take it in great scorn, that such a matter should rest undecided. Where it is held by the Churches of Helvetia, that such Elderships (as they of Geneva talk of) are needless, where there is a Christian magistrate: and thereupon the now L. Archbishop of Canterbury, for disputations sake reasoning, that if there were any such Elders then: yet it doth not follow, they should be received now: Cartwright and his scholars are peremptory, 
T.C. li. 1. p. 175.  that the offices of those Elderships, are the rather to be continued under a Christian magistrate. And the learned Discourser saith as confidently in the like case: that the same authority, 
Pag. 118. 119.  which the Church had, before there was a Christian Magistrate, doth still continue when there is one, or else (as he addeth) we would be glad to learn how this authority was translated from the Church, (in which it was once lawfully used) unto the civil Magistrate. Agreeable to both which resolutions is that saying of Traverse: That Heathen Princes being become Christians, 
Def. of eccles. Dis. p. 148. 174.  do receive no further increase of their authority, than they had before, while they were in paganism.  
It is well: By these rules then, all is theirs. They are Kings & Princes: & the very immediate vicegerentes of jesus Christ upon earth. And good reason they should then have both the swords: nay, twenty swords if there were so many. And beside, seeing they have to deal in all causes, they must have all laws in the closerts of their breasts: at the least authoritate; let scientia come by Cartwrights' devise, upon the sudden into them how it may: at leisure.  
But hereof sufficiently. Howsoever they cry our against our Bishops for intermeddling with more matters, than they are able to discharge: yet you see into what an infinite sea of affairs, they would thrust their Elderships: allowing generally that in themselves, which formerly they have condemned in others. As by the next Chapter it will appear more plainly unto you.   

CHAP. XXVI. Those things they reprove as unlawful in others, they allow in themselves.  
THere is nothing better known, than with what contempt and bitterness divers amongst us have written against the authority of Bishops, especially Archbishops: 
Archbish.  and yet I perceive, that if they might attain to such an authority, it would be well enough accepted. For thus their Master Beza writeth. 
Conf. cap. 5. Artic. 21.  What was ordained in times past, concerning the appointing of provincial Synods by the Metropolitan, appeareth manifestly by the old Canons. Neither are we the men, who if the ruins of Churches were repaired, do think either that order, or some other like unto it, to be rejected. So as these two things be observed: That a tyranny be not brought again into the Church, as though the holy Ghost were tied to some certain seat or person: and that all things should be done to edification, etc. Indeed, he is already the Primate, Archbishop, or Metropolitan, in effect, of all the province of Geneva: or at the least, he easily foresaw, that if any such order should be restored again amongst them, he was the only man for that great preferment.  
When this word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the sixth Canon of the Council of Nice, is brought and urged, to prove the authority, right, and jurisdiction of the Bishop of Alexandria, over the Churches, in divers countries there mentioned: than it must signify nothing, in that place: (if we shall believe Cartwright) but only a dignity, or pre-eminence in meetings, to go, or sit before the rest. But if you talk of the power, authority, and jurisdiction of their Eldershippes: then saith Danaeus, Vox potestatis in hac disputatione significat 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 
Dan de potest. eccles. cap. 2.  the word of power signifieth, as this Greek word doth properly import. And what is that▪ Forsooth, Ius & authoritatem alicuius gubernationis illi traditae, id est, alicuius reigerendae & regendae: Right and authority of some government given unto such a power, that is of the government and rule of some thing. Now if this word might have been so happy, as to have retained this signification in the said Council of Nice, where there is speech of Bishops: Cartwright had been put to his plunge, 
Beza. annot. john. 1.  and Bezaes' annotation mentioned, would not have helped him a rush. There is nothing more usually objected against the present estate, superiority, and authority of Bishops, 
Vos autem non sic.  than the place of Peter. Neque ut dominantes in cleris; Not as though ye were Lords over the Clergy: And that of Luke 22. 
1. Pet. 5. Luke 2a.  Vos autem non sic; But you shall not be so. And it will not be admitted in any wise, that we should expound those places, of ambitious affectation, of tyrannous practice, or of the abuse of such superiority, ●or jurisdiction. But if you will speak of the right, authority, and jurisdiction of their Elderships; the case is clean altered. There are some, as it seemeth, beyond the seas, who seeing the pride of the consistorian government, do affirm; That the power of the Church is only spiritual, and not any external exercise, practice, and right of any authority, power, and government. With this opposition, so much derogating from the dignity of their Elderships, Danaeus is moved; and answering that conceit, saith: that although the power of the Church, 
Dan. de potest. eccles. cap 3.  ad animarum salutem sit comparata; be instituted for the health of souls: yet notwithstanding, it hath necessarily annexed unto it, an indissoluble band, an external exercise, practice, and use, juris & gubernationis, of law and government. Against this answer, reply (as it seemeth) is made with the same places mentioned, that are urged against our Bishops. Whereupon Danaeus, to make all things clear, addeth these words to his former answer, and publisheth the same from Geneva. 
Ibidem.  Nam quod etc. Whereas it may be objected out of Peter: Non dominantes, etc. Not bearing rule, etc. And out of Luke: Vos autem non sic: but you shall not be so: Facilè soluitur: it is easily answered. Damnatur enim partim abusus, non usus illius potestatis, partim illius cum civili confusio: for partly the abuse is condemned, not the use of that power, and partly the confusion of it with the civil power. Which is the very answer that we do make and approve, being extorted from them by God's good providence; for the stopping of our men's mouths, who upon pretence of those places, have opened them so wide against the lawful authority of our Bishops.  
It hath been greatly grudged-at by these reformers, 
New parliam. men.  that Bishops are allowed to be of the upper house of Parliament: and sane they would have them out, if they knew how: Notwithstanding, for aught I can find, they have enjoyed that honourable prerogative, ever since there was an high Court of Parliament in England. And still the word of God is made the pretence for whatsoever they desire: so as ever you understand that they themselves are excepted. Whereof it cometh, that the very same project is made to the Lords of her majesties most honourable Council, which was devised by Beza for Scotland, uz. that in place of the Bishops, 
Humble motio. pag. 52.  there might be present in the parliament house some wise and grave Ministers of especial gifts & learning, 
Beza de tripl. episc.  sorted out of all the land: to yield their Council, according to God's heavenly law, even as the civil judges are ready to give their advise according to the temporal law, and for matters of greater difficulty. But would they sit there as the judges do, and have no voices▪ I take it, they would scorn that greatly. For I nothing doubt, but if they were there, they would account themselves the wisest in the company. And therefore, it was more substantially considered of by him, who penned a Supplication to her Majesty, and wished, That four and twenty Doctors of Divinity, 
Found amongst Fields books.  (to be called by such names as it should please her highness) might be admitted into the Parliament house, and have their voices there in stead of the Bishops. And would they be called Lords, if it pleased her Majesty for the honour of that house to appoint it so? Their words do import so much: and I make no doubt of it, but that to gratify her highness, they would be content to humble themselves so far.  
In the hope which they have conceived, to overthrow the state of Bishops, 
Convocation.  and to have their devise allowed of, and established in the land: they inveigh most bitterly against the Bishops, and the Convocation house, misliking that the dealing in ecclesiastical causes, should be committed unto them, in sort as now it is: affirming, that the liberties of the Parliament, are thereby betrayed: and that it appertaineth to that Court, to order matters of religion. But what if the Bishops were excluded, and none admitted into the Convocation house, but such as they would choose from amongst themselves: how then? Indeed (saith the Supplicator) If the Convocation house were such as it ought to be, 
Suppl pag. 45.  etc. then were it not lawful for the Parliament to establish any thing, in the matters appertaining to the pure worship of God, but by their direction. Which is this in effect, 
Admon. 2. p. 57  (if I understand them:) that the Parliament should provide their new pretended governors, of sufficient maintenance, and set up their Eldershippes; and then enact it likewise: that whatsoever they should ordain in their assemblies and meetings, for the time to come concerning Church causes: should be in full strength, and for ever obeyed, until it might please them to make some alteration. Which is the point that Knox aimed at, 
Exhort. to Engl. pag. 91. etc.  in his Exhortation to England: wherein for the good instruction of her majesties subjects, he sendeth them from Geneva, these Allobrogicall rules: That the pretended discipline ought to be set up: that all Princes ought to submit themselves under the yoke of it: that what Prince, King, or Emperor shall disannul the same, he is to be reputed God's enemy, and to be held unworthy to reign above his people: and then saith, if such order were once established, as there he prosecuteth, and the discipline well executed accordingly: 
Ibid pag. 99  their yearly coming to the Parliament, for matters of religion, shall be superfluous and vain. And this also is plain, by Cartwrights' new form of discipline, subscribed unto by himself, and his fellows. Which form they have avowed upon their oaths to be such, as that they purposed to have been suitors to her Majesty, for the general establishing of it. In which their purpose, if once they may prevail: there shall never Parliament be troubled again in matters of religion: otherwise then (as I said) for making of laws, that the people may obey their orders. For the whole government is there ascribed unto their Elderships, & other assemblies; insomuch, as the civil Magistrate is not once mentioned in it.  
It is well known how vehement they have been, 
A Councillor.  and still continue, against the now Lord Archbishop of Canterbury, in that he is one of her majesties most honourable privy Council, accounting it unlawful, for a Bishop or Minister of the word, to hold any such room and authority. And yet notwithstanding, it is greatly allowed of, & liked: that Beza in Geneva, should be one of the Council of that state there, one of the threescore: and they admit not any into their Consistory, so much as the meanest of their Aldermen; but he must be either a Syndicke, or one of the Council of threescore, or one of the Council of two hundredth. Now I cannot possibly be brought to think, that the word of God should deal so partially: but that it may be as lawful here, as there, if it please her Majesty, to have a Bishop to be one of her most honourable Council.  
It is apparent in the former Chapter, 
Their Synods must bind.  what little account they make of general Counsels. The best are censured by them, and reproved. It is not well borne by Cartwright, that the Council of Nice should be termed a famous Council. And for other Counsels, or Synods; they are scarcely reckoned to be worthy the mentioning. If you press one of that fort, with the authority of them all; though he be not thirty years of age, he will not stick to make a tush at them: and tell you, that himself is of another opinion. No decrees made by them, will bind these fellows. And as touching our own national Synods and Parliaments: they are prosecuted with the greatest contempt. The reformation of religion made by that authority: is termed a deformation. The articles of religion, are misliked in divers points. The Injunctions, Advertisements; Canons, Orders, Ceremonies, and all things in a manner, are despised by them. For they are but men's precepts (forsooth:) every man must try them, and keep or allow what he list; at the least, if he will but pretend, that he doth it of conscience. Howbeit, if they may have once authority to establish their Elderships, and to meet together in their classical, provincial, or national assemblies, there to make such laws and orders, as they shall think good: then see (I pray you) how they change their song. 
Gelibrand to Field.  Touching my departure from that holy assembly without leave, etc. Icrave pardon. Holy assembly. It was a Conventicle in London, about the year 1584. 
Fen. to Field.  I am ready to run, if the Church command, according to the holy decrees, and orders of discipline. Holy decrees and orders. The matter was, for his going into the Low Countries with the Earl of Leicester, and for his absence from his benefice. 
Admon. 2. pa. 31  To the determination of a national Synod, men shall stand as it was at jerusalem, except it be in a great matter of faith; or a great matter expressly against the Scriptures. It was agreed upon in the Northampton classis, 
johnson & Littletonsworne.  that concerning any matters of doctrine, or about the sense of any place of Scriptures, the brethren within that compass, must stand to the determination of that cl●ssis. And these are the orders, to this point, in the newly subscribed book of discipline. Plurium sententiae verbo Dei consentaneae, singulares omnes eius cansilij, & conventus ecclesiae parere debent. All Churches must obey the sentence of the greater part of that Councillor assembly, under whose direction they are, the same being agreeable to the word of God. And again: It is made a part of their Alderman's office to see: Vt quae à conventibus piè decreta retulerint, à civibus suis earum ecclesiarum studiosè obseruentur: that those godly decrees which they shall bring from the assemblies, be diligently observed of their Citizens of those Churches. last: conventus sententia rata habeatur, donec à conventu maior is authoritatis secus iudicatum puerit. Let the sentence of every assembly be ratified, until it shall be otherwise iudged-of by an assembly of greater authority: As a classical, to be overruled by a provincial; a provincial, by a national; a national, by a general. And thus they writ of their own orders and assemblies. Which rules, take them altogether as they lie, if they be true: (as I do not greatly dislike them being well applied) then do these busy bodies among us, sin most directly against their own consciences: in that they oppose themselves, (as they do) against those things which the greater part of the national Synod, & high court of parliament of this Realm, hath allowed of: being most agreeable to the word of God, before some general Council, or assembly of more authority, have judged otherwise, and determined, for the course that they have proceeded in. General Council I am sure they have none. And for any other assembly, that hath been held, and should have greater authority in England, than the national Synod of all our own Churches, and the high Court of Parliament; let them name it.  
In their writings generally, they exclaim against the high Commission, 
Commission.  or at the least, against the Commissioners; as many of them as be clergy men: affirming it to be against the word of God, that any such should be of that Commission. 
Acts of secret council printed 1590.  And yet in Scotland, it was agreeable with the Scriptures, that forty or fifty at the least, Ministers of the word, (as I conceive it) should be very great Commissioners from the King, Anno 1589. to very many great purposes: even for the purging of that land from all sorts of enemies, to the religion there professed. Likewise, earnest suit is made, in the Supplication before mentioned, 
Suppl. to her Majesty.  to her Majesty, and found in Fields study: that the foresaid four & twenty Doctors, that should be of the Parliament house, might be likewise general Commissioners under the great scale of England (or the more part of them) to bear and determine, all and every sect, error, heresy, contempt, default, and misdemeanour, against the word of God, and her majesties laws of reformation of religion: to deprive any Pastor, not doing or neglecting his duty: to examine witnesses, and to imprison the bodies of all such malefactors, and to certify their names to the Lords of her majesties Council, that they may receive further condign punishment. Besides, there be some that resemble the high Commission, now in force; unto the authority which they challenge to their several Elderships. Whereupon one of them, acquainted, (I doubt not) with the desires of the rest, 
Petition to her Maicst. pag. 13.  saith: That if the high Commission were settled in five hundred places more than it is: and should govern by the word of God, and laws of this Realm; there would rise more profit thereby to religion, than yet hath been found by the Bishops. He would have it in five hundredth places. Scotland is divided into two and fifty Eldershippes: and of likelihood they would have five hundred in England. And that, as I take it, is the mystery of his number of five hundred. To conclude, I find another motion, which liketh well, that if there were five hundred Elderships more or fewer established, yet there might be in every great Town, 
Humh motion pag. 62.  certain Commissioners in causes ecclesiastical appointed: to look that the Elderships did their duties, & if they did not, to compel them thereunto by civil authority. So as thereby it appeareth, that although our Bishops, & other Clergy men may not be such Commissioners with us in some few places: yet their Pastors, Doctors, & Aldermen, may, in every parish, or so many of them, (or I know not whom) as it should please her Majesty, to assign to every great Town. Surely the word of God is much troubled with such kind of choppers and changers of it; every giddy head wresting and wring it, to serve his own devise. We should have Commissions to thatch houses withal (I see:) if they might be our directors.  
They are offended with the authority that her Majesty doth give unto her Commissioners, 
Pursuivants.  for causes ecclesiastical, as being unlawful, in that by virtue of that commission, they may send sometimes for offenders to appear before them, by pursuivants; and commit them to prison, as occasion shall fall out, and their faults, misdemeanours, and contempts shall require. But at Geneva, the like authority (in effect) is lawful in their Eldership. 
Laws of Geneva. fol. 15.  For there the Consistory hath a Beadle, sergeant, or pursuivant, or as you lift to term him, appointed by the civil Magistrates to attend upon it: whose office is, to call such before the Consistory, as the Aldermen shall appoint him. And for imprisoning of any offenders, and contemptuous persons; there is notany matter almost, for the which they may call a man before them: but one part of the punishment of it, by the laws of the City, is imprisonment. As if any when he appeareth in the Consistory, or else where, be so hardy as but to speak evil of any of the Ministers, 
Laws of Geneva. fol. 71.  or misname them, he is to be imprisoned. Besides, as I have noted it before; their Elders are always of the Council of state: and seldom or never, but they will be sure to have one of the four Syndics, to be of that bench. So as together, they reign like Lords in their Consistory: and who dare say; My Lords, why do you so? If they direct: imprisonment, is but a small matter. I speak not against that order there: let them use it as they think good. Only I see not, why the word of God should be so bountiful to them, and is so sparing to us.  
In that by the orders of our Church, 
Subscription.  and the laws of the Realm, there is required of Ministers, a subscription to her majesties lawful authority in ecclesiastical causes; to the Articles of Religion, and to the Communion book, etc. great quarrels have been raised, and many exceptions are taken against it. 
Humb. motion.  Insomuch as one, (a wise man I warrant you) doth ascribe all the dangers that have been complotted against her majesties person by the traitorous Papists: the dearth of corn: the cause that we have had such watching and warding by soldiers: and lastly, that the Spaniards would have invaded this land; all these things are ascribed (I say) by him, unto the exacting of the said subscription. Howbeit, yet Cartwright and his confederates, could take upon them, in a seditious sort, to require a secret subscription amongst their favourers; unto such a form of new Church government, as he with the rest of that crew, after many meetings and alterations, had devised. Wherein if their fancies might once take place, subscriptions would not seem so dainty as now they do. For there is subscription required upon subscription. No man is to be chosen unto any ecclesiastical office with them: Nisi qui disciplinae subscripserit; except he have subscribed to their discipline: Whosoever is to be of any of their assemblies, either classical, provincial, or national, he must first have subscribed to their discipline. And not thus content, it is there also further ordered; that none shallbe admitted to the holy Communion, except they submit themselves unto their discipline. So as hereby, every temporal man; of what calling soever, is brought under their subjection. Of likelihood they think, that no man can be a worthy receiver of that holy Sacrament: that is not well persuaded of their counterfeit platform. At Geneva, whosoever is to be admitted into their school; he must first subscribe to their discipline. 
Laws of the Vnivenrsitie.  And not that only, but he is tied to make a public confession of that faith, wherein their form of discipline is comprised for an Articlen. And the like confession is also required, of all them that will receive the Communion there. 
Beza in vita Calu.  But what talk I of subscriptions, or professions? Master Caluin, when that discipline was first set up, procured a general oath to be taken throughout the City, for the approbation of it. Whosoever also is made Minister there: 
Laws of Geneva. fol. 3.  he sweareth to keep their ecclesiastical ordinances; and consequently, the discipline there practised. All their Elders in like manner, though one of them be one of the Syndicks, do take an oath to the same effect: 
Ibid. fol. 9  when they swear, to perform their office faithfully, and to bring all things to the Consistory, which are worthy to be brought before it. As if the sovereign here, should take an oath, to be a promoter. But that which is most of all: they have prevailed so much with the Magistrates, (and there is good cause why) that it is made death, for any man, to let, or stop, 
Ibid. fol. 81.  or cause to hinder, the word and service of God, and his holy Gospel. Within which compass, you may be sure, their discipline is comprehended. Our men as yet, talk in their platform, but of subscriptions: but if once they had gotten so much, then forward must the rest, or else they would be angry. How carelessly subscription is exacted in England, I am ashamed to report. Such is the retchlesness of many of our Bishops, on the one side: and their desire to be at ease and quietness, to think upon their own affairs: and on the otherside, such is the obstinacy and intolerable pride of that factious sort: as that betwixt both sides, either subscription is not at all required: or if it be, the Bishops admit them so to qualify it, that it were better to be omitted altogether. If the best, and the learnedst man in Christendom, were in Geneva, and should oppose himself to any thing that the Church there holdeth: if he escaped with his life, he might thank God: but he should be sure, not to continue as a Minister there. There is no Church established in Christendom, so remiss in this point, as the Church of England. For in effect: every man useth, and refuseth what he lifteth. Some few of late have been restrained, who had almost raised the land into an open sedition. But else, they follow their own fancies: and may not be dealt withal (forsooth) for fear of disquietness. No man shall ever persuade me, but that the word of God, doth give as free liberty to the Church of England, for the repressing of such schismatics; as either to Geneva, or to any other Church whatsoever.  
There is a kind of oath, 
The oath ex● officio.  termed an oath ministered Ex officio: which is, and always hath been ministered in certain causes, in every Court almost, within the Realm: but especially, in the chiefest. This kind of oath, being ministered also by her majesties Commissioners in causes ecclesiastical, for these foar and thirty years: is now especially greatly impugned, and many exceptions are taken against it. As, a man may not be driven, to confess any thing against himself, nor his godly brethren: what you will charge us with, prove it. You may not admit an accusation against an Elder, under two or three witnesses. If you have witnesses, why ask you us? And many such like objections are made, & maintained. Howbeit this opposition is altogether without consideration, and by them, that know not what they do. For at Geneva, this manner of oath is currant. And I am sure, the brotherhood here would be very loath, to oppose themselves against any point of doctrine, that is allowed of there.  
It fortuned upon a time, that certain persons meeting together, at one widow Balthasars' house in Geneva to be merry, did there dance. Master Caluin hearing of this horrible sin (forsooth) procured them all, both dancers and beholders, to be called before him and his Elders, in the Consistory. When they appeared; Caluin took upon him to examine them, and used (as he termeth them) certain holy obtestations, that they should tell him truly, whether there were any such dancing or no, where it was, and who danced, etc. They denied the matter wholly: which he expresseth Apostlelike in these words: Impudenter nobis & Deo mentiti sunt: 
Cal. Farello. epist. 71.  They lied impudently to God and us: Excandui, I grew pale with anger (saith he) and inveighed eagerly against such their contempt of God. But they continued in their contumacy. Whereupon Caluin, (the matter, as he saith, being certainly known unto him,) protested before God; Poenas. tantae perfidiae daturos, That they should be punished for such their falsehood. And because he could not otherwise get the truth from them: 
Ibidem.  Censui ut jure iurando ad veri confessionem adigerentur: I judged it meet (saith he) that by oath they should be compelled to confess the truth. It should seem, they made the like exceptions, that our contumacious fellows do make. And, one Henriche, a Minister (as it seemeth) who (as I take it) danced not, but did in some sort by way of supposition, (if any such dancing had been) take upon him to defend it, as not being a matter to keep such a stir about: alleged the very same place that Cartwright did in the Consistory at Paul's, and the which all the rest of that brotherhood do commonly allege: 
Ibidem.  uz. Against an Elder receive no accusation, but under two or three witnesses. But how was this allegation liked of? Surely it was laughed at, & termed by Caluin, Altercatio non illepida: a pleasant jest. It seemeth also, that besides the threatening speeches mentioned, there were other used in like manner, which did more terrify them. For (saith Caluin:) Tandem adieci, etc. 
Ibidem.  At the length I added further, that they must build themselves another City, and live therein by themselves, except they would be contained here, under the yoke of Christ, (he meaneth their Consistory) and that as long as they lived in Geneva, they did strive, but in vain, not to obey the laws there. Well, by what means they were drawn unto their oath, I will not stand upon it: but sworn they were, and so confessed all. Whereupon, Omnes in carcerem coniecti; They were all cast into prison.  
Amongst the said dancers, 
Ibidem.  besides the said Henriche, (who was deprived of his ministery, and committed to prison for three days) there was in that company, one of the four Syndics, or chief Magistrates of the City: and he was removed from his office, until he had given some testimony of his repentance: which upon the admonition of the said Consistory, he presently did (as it seemeth) and so escaped prison. There was also an other in that meeting, named Perrin, the Captain of the City (as I take it) a man with whom Caluin had many quarrels. He (as it seenieth) perceiving by Caluins' eagerness, what would fall out about that sport, got himself to Lions, hoping before his return, Rem tacitè sepultam iri: That the matter would be dead and buried. But saith Caluin of him after his return: Quicquid agate, 
Ibidem.  poenam non effugiet: Do what he can, he shall not escape unpunished. In this Perrins absence, his wife Francisca, hearing (as I suppose) that Caluin should utter some hard and angry words against her husband, railed both against him, and the rest of the consistorial associates. But Caluin answered her, Vt merebatur, as she deserved. And this was the end of that inquisition. Perrin with his wife were committed to prison, as the rest of his fellows had been: he for dancing; and she (I think) for railing. Whereof Master Caluin wrote thus to his friend: Perrinus cum uxore fremit in carcere: 
Ibidem.  Vidua prorsus insanit: alij pudore confusi silent: Perrin with his wife doth fret in prison: the widow Balthasar is quite mad: other being ashamed, do hold their peace. Hear was good Consistorian and round dealing. It should appear, that Caluin took as much upon him, as some Bishops or Commissioners in England do. But why should I stand so long upon this example▪ It may be said, we must not live by examples. And it is true. Hear therefore for the conclusion of this point, a Canon of the reformed Churches in France. 
French dis. cap. of the consist.  The faithful may be constrained by the Consistory, to say the truth, so far forth as it derogateth nothing from the authority of the Magistrate. Constrained? this may reach far. But the word of God alloweth them there (it should seem) what they lift. In my opinion, if such manner of proceeding be lawful at Geneva, and in France; it may in some sort be tolerated in England.  
It is a thing too manifest, 
Things used in Popery.  with what libeling and railing, the form of our service, of our ceremonies, of our ornaments, of our apparel, etc. hath been depraved, and shamefully slandered. 
Adm. 2. T.C.  As, That our Communion book was culled out of the Pope's Portuise: this was abused in Popery: that is papistical: it were better to conform ourselves in outward things to the Turks, than to the Papists. These and those things were devised by the Pope, that Antichristian beast▪ Whatsoever cometh from the Pope, which is Antichrist, cometh first from the devil. If of the eggs of a Cockatrice, can be made wholesome meat to feed with: or of a spiders web, any cloth to cover withal: then may also the things that come from the Pope, and the Devil, be good, profitable, and necessary unto the Church. Against these, and many such like speeches, answer hath been made: that it is lawful to try all things, and to hold that which is good. That these things which are good, were not so defiled by their being in the Pope's porteous: but that they might be taken thence, and used. That we must distinguish betwixt the abuse of a thing, and the lawful use of it. That it is no good reason: the Papists abused this, therefore we may not use it. That, as good men sometimes devise that which is evil; so evil men may sometimes devise that which is profitable, etc. But all these answers, and a number more beside, to the same effect: are misliked, denied, and condemned by these our factioners.  
Howbeit, upon occasion the stream is turned, and they themselves are driven to make the very same answers, for the justifying of their own proceedings, and for the maintenance of certain particular matters, which they do urge and allow of. It hath been laid to their charge, that for all their goodly pretences of reformation: yet indeed the cour●e they held, did smell most rankly of Anabaptisme, Donatisme, and of a new kind of Papisme: As, where t●ey disquiet the peace of the Churches already reform: rail upon our Ministers, and their calling: affirm, that our Sacraments are not sincerely ministered: that there is no Church as it should be, but those that they like of: that our ceremonies and orders, are all unlawful: that we have no lawful Ministers, nor Bishops: that Princes may not deal in causes ecclesiastical, etc. These, and many such like points being laid to their charge: Cartwright (as though he had never dreamt of any thing to the contrary) frameth this general answer in the name of all his fraternity. If amongst the filth of their heresies, 
T.C. lib. 2. in the epist.  (uz. of Papists, anabaptists, and Donatists) there may be found any good thing (as it were a grain of good corn, in a great deal of darnel) that we willingly receive▪ not as theirs, but as the jews did the holy Ark from the Philistines, whereof they were unjust owners. For herein it is true that is said: The sheep must not lay down her fell; because she seethe the Wolf sometime clothed with it. Yea, it may come to pass, that the Synagogue of Satan may have some one thing at some time with more convenience, than the true and Catholic Church of Christ. Such was the ceremony of pouring water once only upon the child in Baptism used with us, and in the most reformed Churches, which in some age was used by those of the Eunomian heresy. Hitherto Cartwright. Whose answer if it be true, doth concur with ours, and may stay his own, and his fellows giddiness hereafter.  
Cartwright was purposed once, 
The degree of Doctor.  to have been Doctor of Divinity. And thereof he writeth in this sort. I had the advise of more than a dozen learned Ministers, 
T.C. lib. 2. in the epist.  who considering that I had the office of a Doctor in the University, were of opinion, that (for the good they esteemed might be done thereby) I might swallow the fond and idle ceremonies, which accompany it. To the request of which friends I yielded. But when his Grace came to be propounded to the University, that degree was denied him. Which (I suppose) to be the cause, why ever since, both he, and Traverse his scholar, have written so scornfully of that degree: except a man may guess, that they have an eye therein to Geneva: where, there being but as it were a Grammar school (in comparison of our Universities) no such kind of order can well be used, and therefore it is contemned, reproved, and laughed at (in effect) amongst them: as it may appear by Bezaes' words, in his pitiful book against M. Doctor Saravia.  
The like course against University degrees, was held by the anabaptists, long since in germany: and was mightily encountered by that worthy learned man, P. Melancthon. barrow also, with his retinue at this time, do hold the same positions in England. And, as it seemeth, that anabaptistical humour, is not yet repressed in the skirts of France. Whereupon Franciscus junius hath written a book; 
Junii. Acad.  entitled his Academia: of purpose, to confute such fantastical persons. In the Epistle whereof, after he hath discovered the fooleries of the Anabaptists: he cometh to the other sort: (I think he meaneth Beza, and such like,) whom he honoureth with great titles of gravity, learning: authority, and judgement. These men (saith he) with two weapons do seem to wound to death, the laws of our Universities: uz. with reasons, and with examples. The examples he answereth: and I will not further deal with them, otherwise than by referring you to the said Epistle. But the reasons and his answers, are the points I aim at. Their reasons he setteth down in these words: (a man might think he had read Cartwrightes words before mentioned:) Quia plurima sunt (inquiunt) superflua & puerilia: abusus multi: omnia profecta à Pontificijs: Because many things (they say) are superfluous and childish: there are many abuses: all such orders and ceremonies, came from the Pope.  
Touching the first reason, he showeth such orders and ceremonies as they use, are neither Reipsa, aut significatione; In their nature, or in their signification: either superfluous, or childish; and so not such at all as is objected: and that they are used, sine superstitione & iniuria ulla, Without superstition, or any injury: and so proceedeth to other arguments for them.  
To the second reason, his answer is in effect: that he supposeth no man of learning will say, that The use of a lawful thing is to be abrogated, Propter indignum illius usum, For the unlawful use of it.  
And to the last reason, that such orders came from the Bishops of Rome, he answereth: Esto sanè etc. Be it so; that I may grant them so much. But whatsoever good, honest, or orderly thing, we have received of the Popes, or Papists, must we reject it, because it came from them? Nay rather; Whatsoever good, honest, and orderly thing they have, let us have it common with them, if they will suffer us: if they will not suffer us, at the least let us retain it as well as they, for the public good. We (he speaketh of himself I think, and of the learned men about Heidelberge, and Newstade) if there be any thing good amongst the Papists: if they have devised any good and profitable thing: God forbidden that we should be carried away with such a mad hatred of Papists, as that we should refuse it. Hear than you have the judgement (as it seemeth) of those reformed Churches, either of them both excelling Geneva. For one of them, Geneva is but a hamlet unto it. Which judgement being joined to Cartwrightes' words, doth answer for all those things before mentioned, that our lavish fraternity do still taunt at so bitterly.  
There is nothing more usually objected against the pre-eminence, 
The name of a Bishop  which our Bishops have over other Ministers, than that in the Scriptures the name of Bishop, is likewise given to every Minister of the word. Whereupon they infer with all confidency, as though it were impossible to be otherwise, that because the name was then common, therefore their functions differed not, but were likewise all one. Hereunto, I know not how oft, they have been answered: that the community of names in the Scriptures, doth not take away the distinction of offices. Princes are called Deacons: Apostles, are termed Priests, or Elders: and yet thereby it may not be gathered, that there was no difference between the office of every Deacon, and of Princes: between the office of the Apostles, and every Priest, or Minister of the word. And so we say of Bishops: that although the name of Bishops be given in the Scriptures to other inferior Ministers likewise: yet doth it not follow, that between the office of a Bishop, and of a Priest or Minister, there is, and should be no difference. But all this, & much more to this purpose, will not serve our turns: and yet with Beza to another purpose, it is a marvelous sufficient answer.  
Erastus goeth about to prove, that the name of Elder, when it is taken in the new Testament for an ecclesiastical office: doth ever signify a Minister of the word, and not any of their counterfeit and unpriestly Aldermen. And one of his reasons is this: Because in the new Testament, the names of Bishop, and of Elder, are common: as if a man should say: he that was a Bishop, was called an Elder; and he that was an Elder, was called a Bishop: therefore their offices were all one: and so consequently; every Bishop being a Minister of the word, every Elder must needs be a Minister of the word. Hereunto Beza maketh this answer: which if we rise not always upon our left sides, might be of as great force in our mouths, 
Beaa de excom. pag. 11●.  as in Bezaes'. Sciendum est, etc. It is to be observed, that there is scarcely any name, whereby any ecclesiastical office is signified, that is not sometimes taken generally likewise. Hereof it cometh, that the name of Apostles is attributed also to them, who by a more proper name were called Evangelists: Saint Paul doth call his Apostleship a Deaconship: And Peter calleth himself a Priest: and Luke calleth those, Priests, who are afterward called of Paul by a more general name, Bishops: Quitamen & reipsa & ijsdem specialiter acceptis nominibus, distincta esse illorum munera, nemo dubitare possit: Whereas yet notwithstanding, both in deed or in nature, the same names being taken specially, no man can doubt, but that the offices of Apostles, of Evangelists, of Deacons, of Bishops, and of Priests are distinct. See what respect of persons there is amongst our pretended reformers. I am persuaded, there is not one of them that will presume to encounter with this answer of Bezaes': and yet when other men, as learned as ever he was, or will be, made the same in effect, it was accounted by some of them, not to be worth a straw.  
He that hath read Martin's libels, 
A new ministery.  the Demonstration, and certain books of Penryes', may see what a revel they keep with Archbishops, and Bishops, grounding themselves upon one of Cartwrightes principles: 
T.C. l. 2. p. 439.  That any increase of authority, being added to a Church-Minister, doth clean change his ministery, and maketh it a new ministery. Whereupon they conclude, that archbishops, and Bishops, having received an increase of their authorities, by diverse Councils, etc. are become to be of a new ministery, never ordained by Christ, nor his Apostles: and so consequently, unlawful, and to be abolished. The folly of this collection hath been showed many ways; both by reasons, and by examples: but yet they have not been satisfied. But now you shall see they are put to silence for ever. For Beza is peremptory to the contrary of that, which they have so enforced. In his book against Doctor Saravia, speaking of a place of Ieromes, 
Pag. 152.  how Bishops were ordained for order's sake, etc. he saith in effect: That when they had such authority given then for order's sake; Mutatio non suit in re ipsa: id'est, in ipso ordine, sed tantùm in ordinis modo: There was no change made in the thing itself, that is, in the order: but in the manner or measure of the order. And afterwards more plainly, where he setteth down another manner of principle than Cartwrightes: 
Pag. 153.  uz. That we must distinguish between the nature of a thing, and that which adhereth unto it accidentally; because, Eo in aliud commutato, vel sublato, res ipsa permanet; The accident being changed, or taken away, the thing itself remaineth. Whereupon (if I understand him) he groweth to this issue: 
Pag. 141.152.  That the increase of any such authority (as is before mentioned) or the alteration of the manner or order, is not of the essence of the Ministry, but a thing that is accidental, and may be changed according to the circumstances of times and places. And he bringeth this example. 
Pag. 153.  Accidentale fuit, etc. It was accidental, etc. Vt unusquispiam judicio caeierorum compresbyterorum delectus, presbyterio 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 esset, & permaneret: That one being chosen by the judgement of the rest of his fellow-priests, or Elders, should be the Precedent, or the Prelate over the presbytery, and so continue.  
You will ask me perhaps, how this gear comes about: 
Beza.  that Beza is so opposite, to Cartwright. I will tell you my conceit. I suppose that matters of their pretended Discipline are grown to greater ripeness in Geneva, than they are (thanks be to God) in England: and that therefore Beza is more frank, to let us see what they generally shoot at; then Cartwright dare be as yet. For howsoever Cartwright presumed to tell us (as it seemeth untruely) that, 
T. C. lib. 2. pag. 31. ●  their moderator forsooth should be chosen, but for one action only: and that Caluin being chosen to that office for two years (& so as I take it from two years to two years) misliked, that small pre-eminence should so long remain with one, which in time might breed inconvenience: and that Beza also misliked it for that cause: Yet now you see that Beza is far from that base conceit, & thinketh that, that office, may be permanent: and further saith; 
Beza con. Sar. pag 143.  that to ordain it so now, certè reprehendi nec potest, nec debet, it neither can nor ought surely to be reprehended. And his reason is this, for that it hath been an order, that one should be so chosen, to have such a permanent preheminece in the Church ever since Saint Marks time. 
Beza con. Sar. pag. 116.  Nay, he is come to this: that he is content to yield in effect, that the institution of an Archbishop is agreeable to the word of God: uz. ex illa generali et verissima Apostolica regula, etc. according to that general & true Apostolical rule, which appointeth that all things should be done orderly in the house of God. Est igitur or do etc. There is therefore (saith he) an order in itself, and by itself prescribed by God, but the reason or use of that order and the manner of it, dependeth upon the circumstances of times, places, and persons, and is (as men speak) according to Laws positive. Now if these things that Beza writeth be true: and that he himself (peradventure) could be well enough pleased, to enjoy such an office (if the said circumstances of time and place might serve his turn to obtain it) than we perceive that such additions of titles, and pre-eminence, so he and his fellows may have them; do make no such alteration of the essence of the ministery, as with us is pretended.  
There is great barking, against the church of England, for that by Act of parliament, some parts of the Canon. Law, 
Canon Law.  are retained and to be used by our Bishops, for the better government of the Church: insomuch as the very name of the Canon law, is become odious; the common sort of simple men of the factious crew, verily supposing, that the name of such a law, rule, or institution, is popish, unlawful, and devilish: and therefore they cry, out crucify it, crucify it, away with it, we will not be ruled by it: we will none of it. As though they shoúld say: we are lawless men: for rules and orders we detest them: whatsoever seemeth good in our own eyes, that we will do: at the least if we ever yield our obedience to any churchlaw, it shall be surely of our own making: fie upon all former Counsels, sie upon all those decisions, which the ancient fathers made; fie upon all old and ancient constitutions. And thus in effect they writ & speak, in their libels, and ordinary tabletalk: whereas notwithstanding, if there be any thing in the Canon-law, that will serve their purposes, they can be content to steal it thence, & to take to themselves thereby, the commendation which is due to the true authors & fathers of it. Cartwright, & his fraternity in their essential draft of discipline, have drawn more than seven parts of eight of it, out of the Canon-lawe, and ancient constitutions. Viretus perceiving (but too late,) what hindrance grew to the platform of their new discipline, by the utter abolishing of the Canon-law at once, and as it were in a fury, (which, he supposed, did & would still have bridled princes, if it had been retained and still in force) showeth his dislike of such rashness in these words. 
The 3. Dial. of white Devils:  They thought it a goodly reformation in the Church to abolish all the Canons & decrees with the good statutes, which the ancient fathers and Doctors had ordained, to maintain the good discipline in the church. The chief point indeed that grieved Viretus, (as there it appeareth at large) was this: because Princes by that means, had drawn their necks, from under the yoke of discipline. A matter so much misliked by them, as that he is flat of opinion: that it had been better for the Church to have kept the old Pope still, then by abrogating of the Canon law, and in giving to Princes so great authority in causes ecclesiastical; so to have subjecteth herself to a new kind of papacy: every king & prince, being (as he saith) a new Pope by that means: & much worse than the old. So that hereby, you see, what is the drift of our factious consistorians in labouring, to make the name of the Canon law odious. You may not think, that they differ in substance from their M. Viretus: but they are grown more crafty. The matter that pincheth than, is this: that in the acts of Parliament which are in force, there is ever a Proviso, that nothing thereof shall be in force, which is contrary to the laws of this Realm, or to the prerogative royal of the prince. If ever any K. in England should be so far seduced, as that he would yield to establish their counterfeit elderships in this Realm, with all the royal authority, which they challenge of right to belong unto them, & changing the two former provisoes, should enact it, that all the canon-law should be in force, saving so much, as should be contrary to the orders & prerogative of their elderships: If I should then be alive (as I trust I shall not) I durst before hand hazard a great wager upon it, that they would most readily, & with a great applause, receive it, & almost worship it. For as I said, you may not imagine, but that Viretus hath disclosed their very hearts.  
You know, 
Quire.  there is in every church for the most part a distinction of places betwixt the clergy & the laity. We term one place the chancel, & the other the body of the church: which manner of distinction, doth greatly offend the tender consciences (forsooth) of the purer sort of our reformers. 
Gilby in his dialog.  Insomuch as M. Gilby, a chief man in his time amongst them, doth term the Choir a cage: & reckoneth that separation of the ministers from the congregation: one of the hundred points of popery, which he affirmeth, do yet remain in the church of England. Howbeit, admit but of their elderships into every parish, & then you have them, who will prove it out of the word of God, that there ought to be such a separation of their Aldermen, (every one of them, though he be but a Cobbler) from the rest of the Idiots, that is, all the other parishioners, of what state soever.  
Hic or do in ecclesia servetur etc. 
Dan. de potest eccl. cap. 24.  Let this order be observed in the church (saith Danaeus, & he sendeth us the rule from Geneva) that these who do bear any office in the church, distinguantur et separentur a reliquo populo: may be distinguished & separated from the rest of the people etc. It a fieri decorum est et utile. For it is decent & profitable that it should be so. The Bishop (he meaneth every minister) must stand or sit, eminente loco; aloft etc. and let the elders sit by him: tum ut populo appareant, that the people may behold them: tum ut ministri concionantis doctrinam facilius intelligant et obseruent: and that they may the more easily hear the doctrine of the Minister preaching, and the better mark it. For of likelihood, they are to be the preachers Censors.  
You will say peradventure, where there is some L. Mayor, some Councillor of state, or some other great Magistrate; Nay the King himself (for he must be of some parish) where shall he or any of them sit? That is wisely provided for, I warrant you. For how should it otherwise be, 
ibidem  seeing the Proviso cometh from Geneva? Magistratus pius, etc. Let the godly Magistrate, who is an honourable member of the Church, sit in an honourable and perspicuous place: where the Church may neither seem, to favour the arrogancy and pride of men, nor the contempt of Magistrates. And great discretion therein, surely. If the Magistrate should sit too high, it would make him proud: if too low, it would bring him into contempt. Ergo modus in loco illi concedendo servetur, etc., therefore let a mean be kept in appointing of a place unto him, (Knight, Lord, Earl, Duke, King, or Emperor, the holy Discipline respecteth no men's persons) that he may both understand, he is preferred before the rest: and yet withal, that he hath no dominion over the word of God. In deed excess in any thing is nought, Sedeat itaque inferiori subsellio: let him therefore sit in a lower seat, than the preacher of the word of God, and the Prophet: that he may both see and acknowledge himself to be subject to the threats of the word. The parson or Bishop of every parish with his Artisan Elders, must sit in the highest place, that the people may feed themselves with the sight of them: the civil Magistrates (of what degree soever) must content themselves with inferior rooms: and the rest of the people are to sit super mattas & sedilia inferiora, upon pesses and little low forms. I am persuaded it would greatly trouble the subjects of England, to see such a Metamorphosis in her majesties Chapel. But see what a notable thing Discipline is: and how the Ministers of Geneva can play the Heralds, in marshalling of every state into their due places, according to their callings. If these men were then in England and should survey our Quires, I suppose nothing would offend them, but that, that they are too low. The place where the Roodeloft was, would be thought peradventure more suitable for their Elders. Indeed there the people might best behold them.  
lastly, 
Father's: T.C. l. 1. p. 112  because I will end this Chapter: if Cartwright can get but one Scholiast, that doth in show make for any thing he liketh, it is notable to see what revel he maketh with it. And in like sort Master Beza, when the Fathers do fit him, as in some points they do against Erastus: 
Beza con: Era. lib: scrip. fo. 12  then these manner of phrases are common. Rectè obseruavit Augustinus: Augustine well observed it etc. Again, an vero Chrys. etc. what, do you think that Chrysostome and all the old Churches; 
Beza ibi. fo. 24  not one excepted, saw not this? Again, Hic te obtestamur frater etc. we do here beseech you brother, that you would well consider, in whose behalf and against whom you dispute, cum rem ipsam ab usu non distinguas: when you distinguish not the thing itself from the abuse of it. 
ibidem.  Again, Haec Chrysostomus, 
ibidem fol. 27.  quae tibi satisfacere rectè debent. These things Chrysostome affirmeth, which ought to satisfy you fully. Again, Nunquam aliter fuit hic locus in Ecclesia explicatus. 
ibidem fol. 25.  This place was never otherwise expounded in the Church. And again: A temporibus Apostolorum ad haec usque secula nunquam illa caruerunt Ecclesiae. From the Apostles times, even unto the age wherein we live, the Church did never want authority of Excommunication. And as at times they are content to accept of the Fathers: so will they also upon the like occasion; allow of general councils. Whereas certain persons in Transiluania began to revive diverse old Heresies, about the person of Christ: Master Beza writeth in this sort. An non in mentem vobis veniebat amplissimus ille Nicenae etc. 
Beza Epist. ●  Did you not remember the most worthy assembly of Nice, of Ephesus, of Chalcedon: quo nihil un quam sanctius, nihil augustius ab Apostolorum excessu sol unquam aspexit? The Son itself hath never beheld, since the Apostles departure out of this world, any thing that was more holy, or more excellent, than those assemblies were. Thus I say both Beza, Cartwright, and the rest of the disciplinary humour do write, both of the ancient Fathers, and of the old Counsels, when they please them in any matter. But otherwise, let any of them all, nay jointly all of them together, impugn any part of the new pretended Discipline, or cross them there: Oh, they touch the apple of every one of their eyes, they care not for their authorities, they despise their decrees, they cannot endure them: as now it shall be showed in the next Chapter following.   

CHAP. XXVII. How they deal with the ancient Fathers, Ecclesiastical Histories and general counsels, when they are alleged against them.  
WHen, for the proof of sundry matters, impugned by them: they are urged with the testimonies of the ancient Fathers, and of the Ecclesiastical Histories, they either shift them off, with their own false gloss, 
D. W.  or if that serve not their turn, they disgrace them as much as they can and so reject them. Where Ignatius ascribeth very much to a Bishop: as, that nothing should be done in the Church without his consent: and saith that he hath a principality and power over all, ascribing unto him in that respect the title of Prince of Priests: they expound the word, 
T.C. lib: 2. pa. 620. 517.  Priests, to signify both Ministers of the word and ruling Elders: the said power over all, to extend but only to the said kinds of Priests in one parish: 
T.C. lib. 1. pa. 113. 110.  and the name Prince to mean no more, but as it were a moderator, chosen out of those Ministers, for one meeting only, to propound such matters, as were then to be handled, to collect the voices and to moderate that action. Which interpretation is only framed according to the practice of Geneva, and such great Churches, (as Cartwright termeth them) which have (saith he) diverse Ministers and ruling Elders in them: 
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Epist. ad Tralli.  and is (God knoweth) as far from Ignatius meaning and words, as falsehood is from the truth. And yet either thus he must speak, or else if you press them further, 
T.C. l: 2. p. 622.  than they shall well like of, the poor old Father is strait way rejected, as a counterfeit and a vain man.  
It being showed according to Ireneus words: 
D. W. Ireneus lib. 4. cap. 63.  uz. that the Apostles committed the Churches in every place to the Bishops: and that every one of the Apostles severally, did appoint Bishops in those Churches which they had planted, as S. Paul did at Ephesus and Creta: 
T.C. l. 2. p. 482  Cartwright answereth thus: For the explosition of Ireneus, 
T.C. l. 2. p. 155.  which interpreteth. They, every one severally: if they severally ordained Bishops, every one in his circuit, so it be understood with the Church's consent, as is before declared, I am well content. Are ye so? Surely it is great joy of you. And what is before declared? Forsooth Master Beza in effect saith, 
Annot. Beza in Act. 14. & 1 Tim. 5. v. 22 1. Tit.  that the Apostles did not appoint any Bishops: that is, any Pastor, Doctor, or ruling Elder by their own authority: but the choice of every Church-officer being first made by consent of the whole parish. Then, any Apostle that was present, did consecrat the said party, so chosen, unto the Lord, by laying his hands upon him nomine Presbyterij, in the name of the Presbytery. This is then the issue that Ireneus must stand to. Except he will frame his speech after the new cut, even according to Bezaes' pleasure. Cartwright (you see) will not allow him. If he were now alive, he might well think scorn to be thus used, by either of them both, contrary to his own meaning.  
justinus Martyr, 
D. W.  being brought to witness for Bishops, and their authority in his time, about the year 130. (which was some nine years after Saint john's death) where he calleth every such B. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is, prelate, because the ruling of the ministery & people within his circuit appertained chief to his charge. Cartwright termeth this seeking into the father's writings, (to find out the historical truth of this cause so much by him impugned) a raking in Ditches, 
T.C. li. 1. p. 114  and laboureth in this sort to rid his hands of him, saying: First, this Prelate, was but as a moderator, to propound matters etc. Secondly, that he was Prelate of the people, not of the Ministers, which is contrary to his first exception; except he will say the people had then the government of the Church, amongst whom he should be moderator. Which being observed (as I think) by Beza, he allegeth this place of justinus, 
Bezae anno● 1. Tim. 5.19.  to prove Timothy in Ephesino Presbyterio fuisse 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 id est, Antistes, ut vocat justinus, to have been Prelate in his pretended Eldership at Ephesus. Cartwright hath also a third answer in his second Book: 
T.C. l. 2. p. 621  be it granted, that justinus precedent had superiority over the Ministers, yet how fond is it concluded: that it is lawful because it was? But his main Barricado for defence is this: in the days that justine lived, there began to peep out in the Ministry, some things which went from the simplicity of the Gospel, as that the name of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which was common to the Elders with the Ministers of the word, 
T.C. l. 1. p. 114  was (as it seemeth) appropriated unto one.  
For the proof of the antiquity of Bishops, 
D, W.  Ieromes testimony is brought: that at Alexandria from Saint Mark the Evangelist, 
Jerome ad Euagrium.  there was a Bishop placed in a higher degree above Priests, as it were a Captain over an Army. About which words they busy themselves wonderfully. First (say they) things being ordered then by the suffrages of the Ministers and Elders: 
T, C▪ l, 1, p. 107,  it might (as it falleth out oftentimes) be done without the approbation of Saint Mark, How it falleth out amongst them, it is no great matter. That they should ever agree, were more to be marveled. But to lay such an imputation upon that church: Saint Mark himself being present, I think it a lewd part, and too full of presumption. Besides, Saint Mark might have appealed (by their conceits) unto some Classis, if he had disliked that ordinance. But if this shift will not serve: then they have another, that the words from Saint Mark may be rather taken exclusively to shut out Saint Mark, and the time wherein he lived, then inclusively to shut him in the time wherein this distinction rose, 
Higher, proem. in Matt,  Wherein he showeth his ignorance: for Jerome calleth Saint Mark the Bishop of Alexandria.  
In the end, he useth this fond quirk. It is to be observed, that Sainct Jerome saith it was so in Alexandria, signifying thereby that in other Churches it was not so: and we are rather to follow jerusalem that kept Christ's institution, than Alexandria that departed from it. Have you seen a Bi●de in a limebushe? But yet he plungeth, and when all comes to all, if these shifts shall be thought insufficient, this is the last, both for this point and certain other, of the profit which the Church receiveth by Bishops, &c: corruption groweth in time: 
T, C, l, 1, p, 103.  as the times are, so are men that live in them: there is not such sincerity to be looked for at Ieromes hands in his times, as from others that went before him: besides his other faults, he might in this matter have spoken more sound. And Beza shameth not, to give him the lie: (in effect) and to deride him. For where Saint Jerome saith: that when some would needs hold of Paul, some of Apollo, and some of Cephas: it was ordained for the avoiding of Schism, totius orbis decreto, by a decree of the whole world, that one should be chosen by the Priests to be above the rest. 
The iudgem●t of the most reverend, Epist, ad ja, Lauson Scoc.  That is not so (saith Beza.) And in another place: quod tandem istud decretum, quando & a quibus factum? what decree was this? when and by whom was it made?  
It is most apparent, 
D, W,  and cannot be denied, but that Ireneus, Cyprian, Tertullian, Ambrose, Jerome, Augustine, and diverse other ancient writers, do call Bishops the Apostles successors. In so much as some of them, especially the authors of the Ecclesiastical Histories, do draw long Catalogues of the particular Bishop's names, that succeeded the Apostles, and other Apostolical men, whom they made Bishops. Which Catalogues and manner of speech of the said fathers, being used by them very fitly against such Heretics as did rise up in their days, have since in our time, been greatly abused by the Papists. Unto whom, the learned men, that have stood for the truth against them, by writing, 
jewel, Sadeil, de legit, vocat, mi●ist, etc.,  have continually answered: That the father's arguments drawn from the said personal succession by Bishops were very effectual, so long as the succession of the Apostles doctrine did concur therewithal: and that the fathers in urging of the first, had ever an especial eye to the second, some point of Doctrine being ever called in question by the said Heretics.  
And this answer, as it is in itself most true, so it hath been hitherto generally received. Yet now another must be sought. For whereas in our days, the very calling itself of Bishops, is so brought into question, that men are enforced to seek their original: & amongst many reasons for the justifying of it, do bring the said fathers to testify in this cause, that the Apostles themselves appointed BB. & that they were generally accounted in their times to be the apostles successors: Now Cartwright with his crew cometh forth amongst us, & telleth us that in all such places where the Fathers and Ecclesiastical writers do say: 
T, C, l, 2, p. 572,  that the Bishops succeed the Apostles, we must understand them, that by Bishops, they mean every Pastor in his own parish, whom he affirmeth to be only the Apostles BB. 
T, C, l. 1, p, 63,  and that where they call them the successors of the Apostles, that is to be understood, because they propound the same doctrine that they did. 
T.C. l, 2, p, 458  In this sense (saith he in another place) I grant it true, that all Bishops, that is Pastors, succeed the Apostles. So as then, the said personal succession is here quite excluded. 
Part. 1. cont. Turrian, p●g 64  And beside, for his other succession of doctrine, Sadeil being very desirous to make the said places of the fathers to seem, as though they were greatly to be insisted upon, sticketh not much to grant, to every lay man (that feareth God) as great a privilege, as Cartwright doth, to his Pastors: calling them likewise the Apostles Successors, quatenus Apostolorum doctrinam retinent, et Apostilicis vestigiis insistunt: as far as they hold the Apostles doctrine, and do walk in their paths. And thus, we must expound the Fathers, even as the Father of all such Expositions did that of the Psalm; 
Mat. 4.  Angelis suis mandavit de te: or else they will tell us, that they were but men: that they speak as the times required wherein they lived: that they writ untruly, and many things to like purpose. As if we were to account no otherwise of them, but as of time-servers, men-pleasers, deceivers, and ambitious persons.  
Though Jerome (being an earnest man for the abating of the Deacons pride at Rome, 
jerom ad Nep: jerom in Esay 60.  in preferring of themselves before the order of Priests, whereof he himself was one, 
jer. ad evagr. jer. ad Marco. ) doth speak as much as he could devise to suppress their insolences, and to advance his own orders: as that Priests were once called Bishops etc. yet he was content in other places, and upon other occasions, to confess that Bishops are in respect of Priests: as Aaron was in respect of his sons: that Esay did foretell that Bishops should be chief governors of the church: that the Priest was contained in the name of Bishop 1. Tim. 3. as the less in the greater: that Bishops did hold the places of the Apostles: and even in the very heat of his said disputations against Deacons, he willingly and expressly granteth to Bishops one great prerogative, uz. the ordination of Priests, which did not belong to his order.  
Now it is not unknown, what advantage is taken against all Ieromes words; which may be with any show of truth urged against Bishops. And it will not be admitted of, in this case, which in some other, the best of them are enforced to admit uz. that such his words, were uttered in heat of disputation: and not dogmaticè. But whatsoever he hath written in any place either in his commentaries upon the scripture, or in his letters, when he had laid aside the person of a party, that had interest, and stood not upon every thing that might give any advantage, as the manner is in disputation: all I say whatsoever, it must yield and stoop to that which may in any sort impair the credit of Bishops, or else, woe be to poor Jerome, 
Do't. jesuit. Tom. 4▪ p. 525.  he writeth contraries, and I wots not what. And there is one, that hath sent us word in his book from Rochel: that he knoweth a knack, how Jerome may be expounded, that he shall not leave to the Bishops, so much as ordination. Where we read in Jerome: Quid facit excepta ordinatione Episcopus quod non facit Presbyter? What doth a Bishop, excepting ordination, that a priest doth not? Now saith this fellow: vide candide Lector, num legendum sit, accepta ordinatione: ut sensus sit: ille qui ordinatus est a compresbyteris Episcopus, nihil facit, quod presbyter non facit. Observe gentle reader whether we may not read, having received ordination; that the sense may be: He that is ordained of his fellow-Elders a Bishop, doth nothing that a priest may not do. Which is too too childish.  
To prove the antiquity and lawfulness, 
D.W.  of the name of an Archbishop, there being alleged the authorities of Clement, Anacletus, Anicetus, Epiphanius, Ambrose, & Sozomenus: and thereupon a conclusion inferred, with a saying of Augustine's; that seeing the name is so ancient and that the original thereof is not found: it should seem to have come from the Apostles: They term the bringing-in of these authorities the 
a T: C. lib. 2. pa 513.  moving & summoning of Hell: they say those times 
b T.C. lib. 2. p. 5 111.  were not pure and virgine-like, but departed from the Apostolical simplicity, and do tread them all under their feet, with as great facility as may be. 
c T.C. lib. 1. pa 88  Clement, Anacletus, and Anicetus are discharged for rogues, and men branded in the foreheads. 
d T: C. lib 2: pa. 493.  Epiphanius, wrote according to the time he lived in about 380. and though the name of Archbishop was in his time amongst Grecians, 
e T. C lib 2 pag 494.  yet it followeth not thereby that it was in use amongst the Latins. For Ambrose, when Cartwright writ his first Book, and that they were not so throughlie angered, as now they are, he only gave him this brand. 
f TC. l. 1. p. 94  Ambrose holdeth other things corruptly: and then he expoundeth him, that of likelihood the Archbishop he speaketh of, was no other than he, which for the time ruled the action, when Bishops were ordained: and after the action ended had no more authority than the rest. But since his choler increasing, first he began (as he saith) in his second book to 
g T.C. lib. 2. p. 491.  suspect the place alleged out of his book de dignitate Sacerdotum to be corrupted, whereupon within a short time after he grew to be so hardened against him by finding some other things also in the said book which he misliked: that he hath bored him in the ear for a Rogue likewise, and sent him a roving amongst his fellows, making the author of that book a false Ambrose, which is an unlearned shift. 
h T.C. li. 1. p. 93  Sozomenus and Volusianus, they writ not according to that which was, but according to the custom and manner of the age wherein they wrote. As though he should say, they lied. And as touching 
i T.C. li. 1. p: 9●  Augustine, his sentence is approved (say they) unadvisedly, and that thereby a window is open, to bring in all popery. Which is a lewd reproach.  
For the antiquity of the name of Archdeacon, 
pag. 144  are alleged by D.W. the testimonies of Damasus, Jerome, Sixtus, Sozemene, & Socrates. To whose authorities, their answer is: 
T. C. lib. 2. pag. 502.303.  two of them are counterfeits: Damasus spoke in the Dragon's voice: Amongst men, the best ground beareth thistles: those times were corrupt. And yet Sixtus lived Bishop of Rome, about the year 265. and was a godly martyr.  
A number of authorities, being cited: which affirm that Timothy was Bishop of Ephesus, as Eusebius, Dorotheus, Nicephorus, Jerome, Isidorus, Dionysius Areopagita, Epiphanius, Ambrose, Chrisostome, Oecumenius, Theodoret, etc. Their answer is. 
T.C. li. 2. p. 313  They esteem him a Bishop indeed and not an Evangelist. But what then? if they were for one a hundred, they cannot countervail, much less bear down the testimony of the Apostle. As though they ever purposed any such matter. But it goeth hard, when for a matter of history, all these worthy Fathers, can find no better credit. If Timothy were Bishop of Ephesus, 
D.W.  I trust he will not say that the Apostle is overborne. And that he was Bishop, all these affirm it, who living nearer to the Apostles times, should know aswell as Cartwright, what was in fact then: and being both as religious and as learned as he would pretend to be, could as easily have espied, what repugnances there was betwixt that practice, and the Apostles writings; and would as earnestly have reproved it, if there had been any, as he.  
Saint Cyprian and Saint Jerome are of opinion, nay S. Jerome saith, it was the opinion and the judgement of the whole catholic Church: (for so I interpret his words the whole world) that for the avoiding of schisms and heresies, it was necessary that there should be one Bishop in every Diocese (as our learned writers have thought of those places, writing against the Papists) to govern and overrule the rest of the Priests within their charge, lest otherwise (as by experience it was found amongst the Corinthians,) there would be in short time as many schisms & altars, as there were priests and heads; and that every one might not carry his scholars after him, and so following their own fancies tear in pieces the Church of Christ. With them in like manner all the godly general Counsels since that time have agreed, & finding daily new mischiefs to arise, which were not before hatched, have for the meeting with them, increased accordingly the authority of Bishops: and so kept the church in good order at the least for above five hundred years. Since which time, although the Pope with extreme injury to all other Bishops, hath lifted himself by a false title, above not only them, but above all kings, & Emperors in like manner, never ceasing till he hath set himself in the seat of the beast: yet with many other points of Christianity, this also hath been preserved, that the government of the church by Bishops, in every Kingdom, province, and Diocese, is Apostolical: and not only in that respect to be for ever continued, but necessary also in regard of the causes before mentioned. But now all this is reckoned nothing. There are some two or three; that do take upon them to prove (forsooth) that all the said Fathers 
T.C. lib. 2. pag. 641. ●82, 492. 447. etc.  of the primitive Church, all councils, and all whosoever that have liked that ordinance, 
Beza in his reverend judgement.  have been deceived in their judgements: in that they have accounted the institution of Bishops, & their government, to be a means for the avoiding of schisms, or for the maintenance of the peace of the Church. But how they prove it, I will not stand now upon that point. It is forsooth in a word: by discourse of reason (whereof Cartwright, braggeth) and for that (as they say) there were great controversies in the church notwithstanding their institution etc. And now it is their Eldership, must wear the Crown, and reform all that is amiss. Well what we are to think of their Elderships; we partly have seen, and yet shall hear more, before I have done. In the mean time, it is evident how they oppose their own judgement, to all the world since Christ's time.  
Cyrillus, for calling the Bishop 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 high priest (as Ignatius had done in effect before; 
Tert. de baptis.  the prince or chief of priests: and Tertullian also, Episcopus est summus Sacerdos, the Bishop is the high priest) is wonderfully censured. He that bringeth in a priest into the church (saith Cartwright) goeth about to bury our Saviour Christ. 
T.C. lib. 1. pag. 114.  And as for him that bringeth in an high priest into the church, he goeth about to put our Saviour Christ out of his office. This that he affirmeth here, toucheth not only Cyrill; but the most (I am sure) of all the ancient Fathers: who were as careful, for the office and prerogative of Christ, and have written, as many notable works against such Heretics, as have impugned his Sovereignty in any respect; as ever he or his Sectaries have written, or I think will do. But his breath, may well blast himself: they, I doubt not, are in heaven, and it cannot touch them. We upon earth are to honour their memories: and (for all proud and wicked censure) are to learn from them, that such names not being given to any minister in respect of any office peculiarly belonging to Christ, may lawfully be retained in the Church of God.  

D.W.  Whereas to approve the lawful use of some holidays, allowed and appointed to be kept in the Church of England: amongst diverse reasons this is one, the continuance of them in the times of Ignatius, Tertullian, Cyprian, Jerome, Augustine, and sundry others, together with their good liking and approbation of them: 
T.C. l. 1. p. 154  They complain: that truth is measured by the crooked yard of time: and therefore do appeal from these Examples unto the Scriptures and to the Apostles times. As though the said ancient Fathers, & the churches in their times: had not known the scriptures aswell as he or his Sectaries, and that (notwithstanding the fourth commandment) it was lawful, for the church to appoint, & observe such days, which, upon that only ground, & contrary to the practice of the whole church, since the Apostles times; he utterly denieth to be lawful: induced thereunto (no doubt) because Geneva hath abolished them, uz. Christmas-day, Easter-day, Ascention-day, Whitsuntide, with all the rest. A fact that in the time of the ancient fathers, would surely have been accounted a trick of Paganism.  
justinus, 
D. with:  Irenaeus, Tertullian, Cyprian, Ambrose, Jerome, Basile, Augustine, Socrates, Sozimene, the Counsel of Auricanum, of Neocaesaria, of Nice, of Gangrene, & of orleans, being cited, to prove the church's authority in things of indifferency, and for the observation of many things accordingly not mentioned in the scriptures: 
T: C. lib. 1. pag 29.32.  Cartwright, first complaineth, 
T. C. lib. 2. pag 87. etc.  that he is so pestered with such kind of authorities in steed of Esay, jeremy, S. Paul, & S. Peter: and then he shaketh them off altogether, because the things which they affirm are now called into question, uz. by him & his fellows. So as when it pleaseth them to call any thing into question that all the fathers held, away they must, there is no remedy.  
Cirill affirming, that the law of Moses for punishing adultery by death, 
T.C. l. 2. p. 105  is not now in force: Cartwright answereth: 
T.C. l. 2. p. 107  as for Cirill, I can at no hand allow his opinion: his sentence is corrupt. Chrisostome & Oecumenius do understand the place of Timothy, for the imposition of hands there mentioned, of Bishops not of Priests. Cartwright thereunto saith: 
D: W. pa: 199.  I answer at once, that it seemeth violent. 
T.C. l: 2: p: 269.  Eusebi●s giving josephus this great commendation, that he was Historicorum qui sunt apud judeos facilè Princeps, the principal man amongst the jews for a writer of histories: Master Beza disgraceth him in this sort, in his oration, when he was first chosen to be Rector of the School at Geneva: josephum etc. I do reckon josephus not only amongst the profane, but also in the number of ridiculous and foolish writers. And whereas Origene, Chrisostome, the creak scholiast, Theodoret, Theophilact, Ambrose, and Jerome, do expound Rom. 12.8. He that distributeth, let him do it with simplicity: not of Deacons, that give other men's alms, but of all christians generally, such as do give alms théselues: 
T.C. lib: 3, pag. 89.90.  Cartwright disliking this exposition, determineth of them after this sort: They often strain the text to draw them to the present use of their churches: by reason whereof in steed of milk they sometimes draw blood. He measureth the Fathers, 
D.W.  by his own falsehood.  
When they are told, that the ancient histories are against them, concerning a point by them denied, about the choosing of BB. in Cyprian's time: they confess it, that they are so indeed: and thus they avoid them: that except it can be showed out of some ecclesiastical history of like ancienty with Cyprian; 
T.C. l: 2.534.  it is nothing. By which one blow, all the ecclesiastical histories (that are now extant of name) since Christ's time (so far as I do presently remember except it be Philo judeus) are quite cut off, as insufficient witnesses of any thing, before their own times: that is of any thing, for the space of 300▪ years at the least after Christ. There were Ecclesiastical writers before, as it may appear in diverse places of Eusebius: out of whom both he and others after him, borrowed much: but now they are lost, and we have them not.  
Where it was said in the behalf of the ancient Fathers, 
D.W.  and general Councils, for the first 500 years (being charged with corruption, and I wot not with what building & working to make a way for Antichrist etc.) that they laboured to keep out Antichrist etc., they answer: 
T.C. lib. 2. pa. 507.508.  the Fathers imagined fond of Antichrist: they dealt like ignorant men: they were overmastered of their affections: they had many errors etc. And all this is spoken by a man much more fond, ignorant, affectionate, and erroneous, (as I am persuaded) than they were.  
But yet hear the man and his master a little further. 
T, C, l, 1. p. 97.  It is a dangerous thing to ground our order or policy of the Church upon men. Again: Although the lower of this Antichristian building was not then set up: yet the foundation thereof being secretly laid in the Apostles times, 
Ibidem,  you might easily know that in those times, the building was wonderfully advanced and grown very high. And Beza also: The Fathers, 
The iudgem●t of the most reverend,  in the Council of Nice, underlaide the seat of the Harlot, that sitteth upon seven mountains. Again Master Cartwright: 
T, C, l, 2, p. 511.  Those times were not pure, nor virginlike: the Churches were then much departed from the singleness, wherein the Apostles had left them. lastly: Examples cannot be without great danger set from those times. And thus all, but Caluin, 
pag. 11.  Beza, and himself are men: there is no good building but their own, nor any purity to be found, but in them, their favourers, their devices and platforms.  
It is alleged out of Theodoret, that Saint Chrisostom, being Bishop of Constantinople, had the care not only of that Church, 
●. W. p. 412.413.  but of the Churches also in Thracia, in Asia, and in Pontus: and out of Sozemenus, that he deposed thirteen Bishops for Simony in selling of benefices. Unto which testimonies they answer: First, that this care was no other than such, as every godly Minister ought to have over all the Churches in Christendom. For example, as Beza hath of the Churches in France: and so Chrisostom was Bishop only in the Church of Constantinople, and had an eye and care to those other Churches. Which answer proceedeth from gross ignorance or malice. secondly, that if Chrisostome had charge over all those Churches, he had as large a dominion as ever the Pope had. 
T.C. l. 2: p. 524, 525, 526,  Wherein also he showeth his gross ignorance in taking Asia there, for the third part of the world. Thirdly, that, if he had any such authority, he was guilty of the breach of many Canons and Counsels. Fourthly, that he could say, he was a proud man. fifthly, that it might be answered: that Chrisostom deposed the said Bishops, not by his authority, but by his counsel. Sixtly, that it was Pope-like and unlawful to put in and put out, of his absolute authority: and lastly, that it is dangerous to build upon the examples of those times. And thus as a man in a maze, he goeth backward and forward, finding nothing to rest upon, but his own mere ungodly and slanderous surmises. A fit guide he is, for giddy heads to follow.  
Whereas for the antiquity of Archbishops, 
D, W,  the first general council that was after the Apostles times, uz. the Council of Nice, is alleged in these words. Let the ancient custom be kept throughout Egypt, Libya and Pentapolis, that the Bishop of Alexandria may have the government of all these etc. 
T.C. l. 2, p, 562.  First, (say they) nothing was granted by those words to the Bishop of Alexandria, but only to sit in the highest place at meetings: which is most direct against the tenor of that Canon, and is but a sottish shift, grounded especially upon this, that Beza in his annotations upon john 1. doth expound this word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 (which the Council useth) to signify dignity or prerogative. And secondly where it is said: let the ancient custom prevail. 
T, C, l. 2, p. 484  The Bishops (saith Cartwright) comparing that decree with others made at that time, and not before, called that an ancient custom. As if Ministers being assembled together, to speak of a matter continued a score of Provincial Synods, and holden in the space of ten years, should say in this sort: in such and such things we will keep our old custom. Which they themselves, might say as well if they list, concerning their bastardly Discipline, that secretly and seditiously eight or nine years since, they have agreed upon (after their fashion like dogs and cats) in many of their assemblies. But if either he, or any other of the said Ministers should so say, they should certainly in mine opinion speak very foolishly and very ignorauntlie. And whether it is likely, that all the ancient Fathers, assembled in that Council, would use such a Sophistication in one of their Canons; that judge you: or whether there was ever any man before Cartwright, so presumptuously impudent, as to expound their words in this sort, that I leave to himself and his followers to consider of, at their leisure.  
But the Council must speak according to his pleasure: or otherwise mark how he cometh over it. First he gibeth at these titles, which are given unto it, to be a notable and famous Council: 
T, C, l, 1, pa, 93,  secondly, he taketh upon him, to prove, that the said Canon was not a good decree: because as he saith, some other decrees then made, are not sound: thirdly, (allowing the decision that was given by that Council, of the difference touching the perfect unity of substance in Trinity.) For the rest he saith thus: the most of the errors agreed upon in that Council were in the Discipline. The most Belike there were some then in the Doctrine. Those which he hath named for such great errors, were not agreed upon as matters of doctrine, to my understanding, but were orders thought meet in those days for the policy of the Church. I omit what reckoning hath been ever made of this Council, by all other Counsels and fathers since that time. 
Instit. lib, 4, ca.▪ ●, Sect, 750,  Caluin is content to embrace the first four general Counsels, quantúm attinet ad fidei doctrinam, so far as they have dealt with the doctrine of faith: though Cartwright in the height of his pride do challenge the doctrine. But every man now will allow, and disallow what he list. The Arrians will say as much of the doctrine, as either Caluin or Cartwright do say of the discipline. And so every Schismatic or Heretic: look what serves their turn, that is holy: what they dislike; that is erroneus.  
About the choosing of Ministers much hath been pretended for the people's interest. Against which conceit for the necessity of it: amgst many reason's prop ounded, the Council of Laodicea hath been alleged: where it was decreed about the year 338. that it ought not to be permitted unto the multitude to make election of them, 
Instit, lib. 4, c, 4, Sect, 12,  which should be preferred to the ministery. M. Caluin doth greatly allow of this canon, which showeth his liking of the people's restraint: and he affirmeth a sense unto it, as though that Council had purposed to have squared out the same platform for the erecting of Ministers, that he hath devised and established in Geneva. Read the laws of Geneva about the making of Ministers, and you shall find them wholly to agree with his words in this place. Now if we can be content to receive this exposition, 
T, C, l, 1, p. 53,  which Cartwright maketh (being the very marrow of Master Caluins) uz. 
T.C. l. ●. p. 256  the Canon meant not to have the people secluded from the election, but tendeth only to the directing of them by the forejudgement of the Elders: he will be content to let it pass without more ado. Otherwise notwithstanding Caluins' commendation of it, he can tell us (but untruely & without any warrant) that this Canon is suspected, whether it be a Bastard or no: and that many Counsels are against it.  
Master Caluin confesseth, that before the Council of Nice, there were first BB, placed in their diocese above the Ministers: then Archbishops over Bishops: and lastly in the said Nicene Council, that there were Patriarches appointed over Archbishops. Now whereas the Council of Antioch about some 15. years after saith: It behoveth the Bishops in every country to know their Metropolitan Bishop, to have care over the whole province: propter quod, for which cause all such as have any business, must come to their Metropolitan city: wherefore it pleaseth this Council that he also excel in honour, and that the other Bishops do nothing without him, according to the ancient rule prescribed by our forefathers, but those things only which pertain to his own Diocese. Cartwright delivereth us these gloss upon it: 
T. C l. 1. p. 93.  A Metropolitan Bishop (saith he) was nothing else but a Bishop of that place, which was the chief city of the Diocese or shire: and as for the name, it maketh no more difference betwixt Bishop and Bishop, 
T.C. l. 2, p, 556  then when I say a Minister of London, and a Minister of Newington. Secondly. there is no mention here that BB. are subject to the Metropolitan. Thirdly, for the honour they should give him, I have showed it out of the Council of Nice. 
T, C, l, 2, p, 622,  Fourthly, the care for other Churches is but such, as every good Minister should have of all churches. fiftly, the word Diocese should be parish. For the Council did not mean that the Bishops mentioned had Dioceses: 
T. C l. 2. p. 565.  but every one of them one town only, having belonging unto it certain villages, which did resort unto his church, as in Hitchin and divers other places with us. He should have said Geneva, but all this he affirmeth most absurdly. Besides, this is his ordinary practice, that because the word used amongst the Greek writers ordinarily for a diocese, doth likewise also signify a parish: he ever, to falsify such authors as are brought against him, doth translate for diocese, parish, as in this place he doth it with a most brazen forehead. The council of Nice, of Antioch, of Carthage, and of Sardis, directly proving that Bishops only had authority to excommunicate: 
T, C, l. 3, p, 91,  Cartwright giveth no other answer unto them but this: that Master Caluin saith: how Bishops in excommunicating after that manner dealt therein ambitiously.  
Athanasius saith: that Dionysius Bishop of Alexandria, had the Churches of Pentapolis committed to his care: Cartwright saith, 
T, C, l, 2. p, 622,  that care importeth not jurisdiction: and so as to the Council of Nice and of Antioch. Cyprian saith, the cause of heresies and schisms is this: that Priests will not obey their BB. Cartwright that answereth. that is in effect, if his unpreaching Aldermen will not obey their Pastors. 
Epiph. li, 2: To. ●. here's, 6●.  Epiphanius speaking of one Peter a Bishop of Alexandria, saith: this is the custom, that the Bishop of Alexandria should have the Ecclesiastical government of all Egypt, Thebais, Mariota, Libya, Ammonica, Mariotes, & Pentapolis: Whereupon Cartwright gloseth thus: that is, besides his own church, 
T.C. l. 2. p. 56●  he procured the good of other churches, round about him. 
●piph. here. 69  Again, Epiphanius of one Miletus an Archbishop, that he was subject or under the said Peter Archbishop of Alexandria. Cartwright saith, that every Bishop of name was called an Archbishop. 
T: C. l. 1. p. 560.  And where it is said Miletus was under Peter: that is, under him in honour, and not subject unto him, saith Cartwright: contrary to the manifest words and meaning of the author. Theodoret Bishop of Cyprus saith of himself, that he had the government over 800. Churches: Cartwright saith in effect, that he lied: that his words concerning his care in governing those churches, being spoken of himself want not suspicion, and that he was condemned for writing against Cirill: never mentioning how he was wrongfully condemned in his absence, and afterward restored.  
I omit a number of their other shifts and presumptuous dealings with the fathers. 
T. C. li. 1. p. 113 T. C. li. 1. p. 41  As of Epiphanius: For him it is known of what authority he is, etc. it were better to lay his words against Aerius, 
T: C. l. 2. p. 528,  upon some counterfeit and false Epiphanius to spare his credit. Likewise of Ambrose: Many errors & corrupt expositions are found in his works: in his exposition upon the place to the Philippians, a child may see, how violently he forceth the Text. And also their rejecting of Counsels by heaps, etc. where they have no colour, how they may pervert them. But yet I may not let this escape my fingers, that Cartwright, whether for his own glory, or else that God would have him to be the instrument of his own shame, is well content, rather than he will want testimonies, to encounter with the authority of Bishops: to sort both himself & all his followers, in the number of those that ever since the Apostles times have repined at that authority: & thereupon have been overruled by all the ancient Father's and Counsels, as busy bodies & Schismatics. You shall hear his words, and then judge whether I have mistaken them. 
T. C. l. 2. p. 580  To what end both in the Nicene council, and in many other holden more than two hundred years after, are there found so many canons, for the acknowledging of the authority of one Metropolitan in every Province, for the honour which he should have: the name he should be called by: for the place where he should sit at their meetings: for the bounds of their circuit? Do not all these declare, that there were some which were enemies to that authority, etc. To this I might add his defence to Aerius, and his confutation of Epiphanius: not without some discredit to Saint Augustine.  
lastly, whatsoever is said, or may be said hereafter, out of all the ancient Fathers and Histories, and out of all the general Counsels, concerning the said government of the Church, by Bishops, Archbishops, and patriarchs, of their institution, authority, title, circuits, and prerogatives: Cartwright doth take upon him (most boldly & most falsely) to prescribe unto us, certain rules, how we must understand them, or otherwise there is not one of them that will be allowed of. I blush in his behalf (I assure you) to set it down, and am ashamed that any man bearing the name of a Christian, should deal so like an Impostor. But this it is▪ That it may appear (saith he) what the Fathers and Councils do mean, when they give more to the Bishop of any one church, then to the Elder of the same church, 
T. C. lib. 1. pag, 19.110.  and that no man be deceived by the name of Governor or ruler over the rest, to fancy any such authority and domination or Lordship, as we see used in our church: it is to be understood, that amongst the Pastors, Elders, and Deacons of every particular church, and in the meetings and companies of the Ministers, or Elders of diverse churches, there was one chosen by the voices & suffrages of them all, or the most part which did propound the matters that were to be handled: whether they were difficulties to be soluted, or punishments & censures to be decreed upon those that had faulted, or whether there were elections to be made, or what other matter so ever occasion was given to entreat off: the which also gathered the voices & reasons of those which had interest to speak in such causes, which also did pronounce according to the number of the voices which were given, which was also the mouth of the rest to admonish, or to comfort, or to rebuke sharply such as were to receive admonishment, consolation, or rebuke, & which in a word did moderate that whole action which was done for that time they were assembled etc. And must we thus understand the Fathers & general Counsels? He might as truly say: that the present form of our ecclesiastical government in England under her majesty by Archbishops and Bishops; is even the very same manner of church-government, that he & his followers look for, & the right platform of those Elderships which have so mightily bewitched them.  
Men, that once have passed the limits of modesty; may afterwards say & write, what they list. The ancient Fathers, have deserved far otherwise of the Church of Christ, then that, for the maintenance of such a forgery, as the pretended form of discipline is; they should be used after any such manner. I would wish all men, that are of this proud, & presumptuous humour, to peruse the books which S Augustine hath written against julianus the Pelagian. There they shall find the very same contemptuous spirit in julianus, that reigneth in themselves, & exalteth itself so greatly against the godly & learned fathers: as also on the other side, they shall there see, the fruits of God's spirit: uz. in what reverend account, & very high estimation S. Augustine had such worthy & holy men by name, as here you have heard very contumeliously disgraced, 
August. contra Pelag. L. 2. c. 4.  childishly neglected, disdainfully contemned, and most proudly rejected. Ita intellexit Ambrose, ita Cyprianus, ita Gregorius etc. So Ambrose understood (such a place of the scriptures) : So Cyprian, so Gregory, etc. did carry some weight in S. Augustine's opinion. Those things which diverse notable men, have alleged out of the ancient Fathers, for the justification of the present ecclesiastical government in the church of England; ought not so lightly to be regarded with every princox. What the Fathers have written that agreeth not with our Fantastical giddy headed fellows pleasures, they writ it not of parciality, either to grieve them, or to gratify us: but as truth led them. Quod invenerunt in ecclesia, tenerunt: quod didicerunt, docuerunt: 
Ibidem ca: 10.  quod a patribus acceperunt, hoc filiis tradiderunt: that which they found in the church (saith Augustine) they held: that which they had learned, they taught: that which they had received of their fathers, they delivered to their children.  
Though Cartwright & his company do carry so base a conceit of those times, wherein the ancient fathers lived: yet the Fathers themselves did not so think of them. julianus the heretic did speak (as it seemeth) insuch a scornful sort of them, as our Sectaries do. But S. Augustine layeth it to his reproach, as an apparent argument of his great folly & presumption: 
Ibidem cap. 10  thinking it a most absurd point for him so to use them. Vsque adeò permiscuit imis summa longus dies etc. hath time so confounded all things (saith Augustine)? is darkness grown to be such light, and is light itself turned into such darkness, ut videant Pelagius, Celestinus, julianus, et caeci sunt Hilarius, Cpyrianus, Ambrose? that Pelagius, Celestin●s, and julianus can see, and Hilary, Cyprian, and Ambrose are become blind? And surely I do not perceive, why I may not without offence, apply the same words to those men in these days, which tread in the said fellows steps, concerning this their contempt & pride. Were there never learned men; before you were taught the principles of the Geneva discipline? was wisdom dead till you were borne? Do you know what was in the Apostles times, better than they did, who succeeded the Apostles? were the ancient Father's able to defend the greatest mysteries of our salvation, against so many pestilent heretics, and were they ignorant in the matters of the external government of the church? Knew they the distinction of the three persons in the blessed Trinity, & could they not find what difference Christ allowed off, to be continued in his Church, betwixt a Bishop and a priest? Is the darkness which pride carrieth with it, grown to be so light: and is the light that showed itself so many ways in the ancient fathers (as in their singular learning & great humility) become such darkness; that Cartwright, Traverse, Fenner, and such like, (but the shadows of learned men in respect) should be thought so clearly sighted? & shall Ireneus, Tertullian, Cyprian, Ambrose, Hierome, Chrysostome, Augustine, Gregory, Hilarye, and all the rest of those worthy men be reckoned blind? Surely he is a buzzard that thinketh so. And therefore I will conclude this chapter with another saying of S. Augustine's, against such busy innovators, as you are: oportet ut populi christiani vestris prophanis novitatibus anteponant etc. 
Ibidem cap. 1  It is meet that all christian people should prefer the ancient fathers, before your novelties, eisque potius adherere quàm vobis: & rather stick fast to their judgements, then to run after your fancies.   

CHAP. XXVIII. Their dealing with all the new writers, and many reformed churches when they make against them.  
THis is a ground laid down by Cartwright: 
T.C. lib. 1. p. 7.  that few men that are of any stayed or sounder judgement in the scriptures, and have seen or read of the government and order of other churches, are against them in such matters, as they have broached unto us. And agreeably to this ground his answers are framed, when any thing is urged against him, out of any of the new writers, except Caluin, and BeZa. If either of them do happen to cross him: it is strange to see how he doubleth & shifteth. As for any other, they are but a puff with him: he careth not greatly how he handleth them.  

D.W.  Pelican, Bucer, Bullinger, Illyricus, and Musculus, affirming with all the ancient Fathers, that Timothye was Bishop of Ephesus: what then (saith Cartwright) If they were for one, a hundred, they could not bear down the Apostle. 
T.C. li. 2. p. 313 T.C. li. 2. p, 114  As though they had ever meant it. Luther expounding a place of Zacharie contrary to his liking: his exposition (saith Cartwright) is out of season. Musculus affirmeth that the places 20. of Saint Matthew, 10. of saint Mark, and 22. of saint Luke: vos autem non sic: do not condemn Superiority, but an ambitious desire, and tyrannical usage of it: but Caluin as learned as he (saith Cartwright) is of my judgement. 
T.C. li. 1. pa. 23  Bucer, holdeth that the said 20. of Matthew doth propound a general rule to all magistrates and christians. Where Cartwrights' extenuating the authority of man, 
T. C lib 2● pag. 423.  braveth out Bucer with this: that his judgement hath counterpoise of other as learned.  
Whereas, Peter Martyr, Bullinger, and Gualther, do bring diverse reasons for the lawful use of the surplise, and such other apparel, as is appointed with us for Ministers: Cartwright is so far from being moved with their authority, 
T.C. lib. 1. p. 74  as that he adventureth to confute their said reasons after his manner, very sophistically: affirming in effect (but falsely) that either they understood not ancient fathers, alleged by them for that purpose: or that they perverted their meaning. Bishop Ridly, and Master Bucer, approving that where there are no preachers, there should be godly learned homilies read in those Churches: Cartwright thus dismisseth Bishop Ridley: being a party in this cause, 
T: C. lib. 2. pag. 392.  he ought to be no witness. And for Master Bucers' words, he saith, they are not to be weighed: insinuating that his book concerning his judgement in king Edward's days upon the communion book is counterfeited. 
T.C. lib. 1. pa.  Again, of master Bucer for his allowing of private baptism, and of the sign of the Cross: likewise of the ring in marriage, and that the parties married should receive the communion: he saith, Bucer hath other gross absurdities: 
T.C. lib. 1. pa.  to this authority I could oppose other men of as great authority: sometimes Homer sleepeth: his reasons are very ridiculous, 
T C. lib. 1. pag. 199.  very slender and cold, and savour not of the learning and sharpness of the judgement of master Bucer.  
Master Fox in like sort setting down his full approbation, 
To. 1 pag. 20.  of the present state ecclesiastical: that Archbishops should be in degree above Bishops, and Bishops in degree above other Ministers: and relying for this his judgement partly upon the scriptures, and partly upon the primitive Church: and concluding, that this is to keep an order duly and truly in the Church, according to the true nature and definition of order by the authority of Augustine: 
T.C. lib. 1. pag. 117.  he is (I say) thus censured: Master Fox writing a story, doth take greater pain, and looketh more diligently to declare what is done, and in what time, and by whom, than how justly or unjustly, how conveniently or inconveniently it is done, etc.  
Bishop jewel (a man to be accounted of, as his name doth import, and so esteemed not only here in England, but with all the learned men beyond the seas, that ever knew him or saw his writings,) upon occasion offered to show his opinion, concerning one of Cartwrightes propositions: vz: that both the names, and the offices of Archbishops and Archdeacon's, are to be abolished,) he presumed (forsooth) upon the base authority of all antiquity, the ancient fathers, the general Counsels, and ecclesiastical histories, to call it in the margin of his answer, novitiorum assertio, a new assertion, or an assertion of younglings: and in the end, after he hath briefly surveyed the strength of Cartwrightes great bulwark, he concludeth in this sort.  
As for these reasons, in my judgement, they are not made to build up, and they are too weak to pull down, etc. stultitia nata est in cord pueri, & virga disciplinae fugabit eam: It is but wantonness, correction will help it. Whereupon incommeth Cartwright, as hot as a toast, and scorning, (ye may be sure) to have such a main Article of the new belief to be termed, novitiorum assertio, he calleth these words, 
T. C lib 1. pag. 118.  biting and sharp: and for his further entrance to confute the Bishop's reasons, why he misliked the said proposition, he naileth as it were upon his tomb, this shameful, and most slanderous inscription: Bishop jewel calleth the doctrine of the gospel wantonness. Mark the man's forehead: how it is hardened. The Papist that said he recanted all his writings against the Pope: was not more impudent. He calleth their riotous opening of their mouths against those things they either know not, or which otherwise they deprave most maliciously against their own consciences, (as it is to be feared,) he calleth (I say) these and such like dealings wantonness: and not the doctrine of the Gospel.  
Generally thus he writeth of those most learned men, and many of them godly Martyrs, who were the chief penners and approovers of the communion book, in king Edward's time, and offered to defend every point of it in Queen mary's days, against all the Papists living: their knowledge (saith Cartwright) was in part, and although they brought many things to our light, 
T.C. lib. 1. pag. 196.  yet they being sent out in the morning, or ever the son of the Gospel was risen so high might oversee many things, which those that are not so sharp of sight as they were may see, for because that which they want in the sharpness of sight, they have by the benefit and clearness of the sun, and the light. Excellent child of light, whose knowledge is not in part. And oh worthy Discipline, of the Consistorian Synagogues: how clearly she carrieth all her implements with her.  
Let a man cast down his head, but for a day, like a bulrush, and give a groan or two in the behalf of that kingdom: and by and by he is snatched up above the man in the moon, and may pass amongst them for an illuminated Elder. But it would be known what mysteries have been revealed, either by him or any of his: that were unknown to those blessed men. Surely I know of none: except it be that their Elderships are newly thrust into their consistorial belief. A point (I confess) whereof those godly men were ignorant. Otherwise they were well enough acquainted with these quarrels. They had weighed them, and finding them too light, rejected them. They had skill to discern of such unbridled spirits: and in their days greatly pitied them. In a word to speak my opinion: they were in deed gold, if they be compared to Cartwright, and such like dross: who have little in them, more than ordinary men, but only painted colours, and Sophistical shows.  
Many other particulars of such their dealings with the new writers, might be laid down before you. But these to my purpose, are I know sufficient: and therefore I will come to their boldness and presumption against not this man or that man, but even whole reformed Churches. And although I find some more temperate and modest herein then others: yet when the freehold of their Elderships is touched, they are all like to themselves.  
The Genevians, in their Annotations upon their harmony of confessions, are well content that every Church shall use their liberty, as they shall think it most expedient, in these points following: vz: the reading of the Epistles 
a Sect. 1. obs. 1. ad conf. Boh.  and Gospels upon sundays and holy days, so as other parts of the Scriptures do not thereby grow into contempt: Kneeling 
b Sect. 14. ob. 4. add con. Bo.  at the communion: the 
c Sect. 14 ob. 2. add con. Au.  use of all such ordinary ceremonies at the celebration of the Communion, as now are used among the Lutherans, Copes, singing Organs etc. and were used before by the papists at their masses: the 
d Sect. 15. ob. 1. ad con. Wir.  dispensation of the communion to those that be sick at home in their houses: Ember 
e Sect. 16. ob. 1. ad con. Bo.  days and holy days consecrated to the godly memory of the saints: The singing of 
f Sect. 16. obs. 2. add con. Bo.  Christian hymns and songs upon the said holy days, made to set out the glory of god, in respect of the great good works it pleased him to work by them: The use of funeral 
g Sect. 16 ob. 1. ad con. wir.  sermons: and the imposition 
h Sect. 13. obs. 2. add con. Bo.  of hands upon children, that can say their Catechism, which we call Confirmation. In all these things (I say) they leave every Church to their liberty: so as other churches, that use them not, be not thereby praeiudiced. But when any confession doth approve 
i Sect. 17. obs. 1.2.3. ad con. August.  the calling of Bishops; yielding unto them all lawful obedience (if they will not force upon men their ungodly traditions as of chastity etc.) or when their Aldermen or Consistories are impeached: then they look about them: it is a nail in a wound: they censure: they reject: they wrist and pervert, every thing at their pleasure, as partly I have showed in the end of the Chapter: and as any man may further see that will take the pains to view those observations.  
Which manner and carriage of themselves: I persuade myself no wise man will like of. For besides their corrupt dealing, it is too Pope-like, to take so much upon them, as there they do. What a vanity is this, to say of other Churches; we allow this, and that; if it be thus and thus understood: otherwise we cannot like of it: we think it unlawful, we cannot digest it? And yet I cannot blame them so much; as I do our own domestical counterfeits. They are in possession of a government: and would be therefore loath to lose it. They got it hardly, and do fear every thing, that maketh against it. I am persuaded if they might be sure to keep it still: they would be content to grant (of their own goodness) great liberty to all Churches in their own matters. Whereas our makebates, what furious and outrageous courses have they taken, against the Church of England; for the use of those things, which now the Genevians allow of? And beside, concerning their pretended discipline: they will needs hold it before they have it: and do show already as much or more contempt of those Churches, that dislike it, and are as saucy with them: as any that I do know or hear of, except it be their disciples Barrow and his companions.  
It hath pleased, that light headed▪ cockbraine, that presumed to write a petition of late as unto her Majesty: and afterward like a seditious and unduetiful person published the same to the people in print (for what cause let wise men consider): 
Polit. pag. 13.  amongst many other doltish untruths to affirm this; uz. that the Churches of Zuricke, Berne, Shaffhusen, S. Galls, Rethia, Mylliane, Bieuna, Polony, and Hungaria, have commended (by their subscription to the second Helvetian confession) the government of the Church by Elders, to be used in all Churches for ever. But let the whole confession be viewed, and although I doubt not but that there was as much cunning used by the Genevians about that subscription as might be; yet is there not one word in it, that tendeth that way.  
In that confession there are but two marks of the Church set down: the third after the Geneva computation, is lest out. In the Chapter of the ministers of the Church: they are all of them as many: as are there named, reckoned for ministers of the word and sacraments. That which is there, and might in any sort be wrested to that purpose is this. And seeing there must needs be discipline in the Church, 
Conf. Helu.  and in times past (apud veteres) excommunnication was used, and there were ecclesiastical judgements in the people of god, in the which this discipline was exercised by wise and godly men: it shall also be the ministers part, to moderate this discipline, as it may edify according to the condition of times, and the public states, and as it shall be necessary. Which words are so far from commending the perpetual use of the Geneva Eldership: that in mine opinion they are quite against it. For thus they say: First that there must be discipline, which no man denieth: secondly that excommunication was used in the times of the ancient fathers; this also is confessed: thirdly that amongst the jews there were ecclesiastical courts, in which this discipline was exercised by wise and godly men (who for any thing that is here said, might be, of the tribe of Levi, and all of them priests): and four that it belongeth to the ministers to moderate this Discipline (that is) to use it, or not to use it, as times, states, and necessity shall require.  
And that this my interpretation of this fourth point must needs be the meaning of the Helvetian confession: it appeareth hereby: in that this form of government, (which the petitioner speakeh of) is not in any Church in all Helvetia for aught I have heard. They have no such Aldermen: they have no use of their excommuncation. And having been many days solicited, to have received it: for the better, reputation of Geneva, their answer hath ever been: that every Church is to have an especial eye to this point, what will most edify: and that forasmuch as they have found the terpretation of the Scriptures, which hath been since the Apostles times. 
Defence of Ecclesiastical discip. pa. 86.  The notablest instrument: None ever like him? Master Traverse (I think): will not endure that. For he is resolute in Master Bezaes' behalf: saying: Master Beza is the best interpreter of the new Testament. There was one in Basile, who gave it out after a glorious manner: that he did attribute, 
Caluin. Farello pa. 412.  non minus Farello quam Paulo: no less to Farellus than he did to Paul. Which master Caluin misliked.  

Beza. Epist 12  The letter, which Beza writ unto our English disciplinaries, whereupon they were to build their consciences, is kept I perceive by the Register as a relic at home in 
Regist. pa. 30.  their houses.  
In the scurrilous libel, which the brethren do tear me the practice of prelate's, 
Practise of Prelates D. 2.  I find these words. Master Caluin, Beza, Viret, etc. Knox, Cartwright, and such like, etc. are the only worthies in the world, that have maintained Discipline. Worthies? A trifling commendation. He was a very notable man in his time: that said, mediocria firma. And might no meaner a dignity serve these men: but needs they must be Worthies? They should have called them stupor mundi: the astonishment of the world.  
There is much written of the Popes of Rome by their Parasites: as that they have a divine judgement, and cannot err, etc. and you shall see that within a while (if the world hold thus on,) the consistorial humoristes may chance to come near them: even in this their so gross and palpable folly. 
Epist. add mice.  Zanchius telleth a notable history. When he came newly out of Italy to Geneva, Caluin and Viretus preached ordinarily there at one certain hour: the one in Saint Peter's Church: the other in Saint Geruasins. Now there was a Frenchman, with whom he grew into some acquaintance, that never miss Master Caluins' sermon: but would not once vouchsafe to hear Viretus.  
Whereupon Zanchius demanding of him the reason: why he heard not the one sometimes aswell as the other: in haec ferme verbarespondet sed Gallice: St veniret S. Paulus qui eadem hor● concionaretur, qua & calvinus: ego relicto Paulo audirem Caluinum: the Frenchman answered plainly in these very words almost, but in French: If Saint Paul should come to Geneva, and should preach the same hour that Caluin did, I would leave Paul, and go to hear Caluin.  
It is also written of Alexander the third, that treading upon the neck of the noble Emperor Frederick the first; 
Carion. Nauclerus.  he applied unto himself and that action, these words of the Psalm spoken of Christ: Thou shalt walk upon the venomous Asp and Basilisk: 
Psal. 118.  thou shalt tread down the Lion and Dragon. And see what was written in a letter to master Caluin, by one jacobus Bernardus from Geneva: which letter Caluin thought meet to be kept in store, and Beza to publish it in print. Master Caluin being banished from Geneva, by the procurement of the Ministers especially that disliked his proceedings: there was great means made for his return thither again. So as after some two or three years absence thence, it was agreed in the City, that he should be restored to his former place, as you have heard before. Quod cum intellexissem, non potui non laudare Deum, aliterque judicare, quam quód a Deo factum istud, & esset mirabile in oculis nostris, quodque lapis quem reprobarant aedificantes, 
Math. 21▪ Marc. 12. Luke 20. Rom. 9 1. Pet. 2.  in caput fieret anguli: which thing, (saith the said Bernardus to Caluin) when I understood, I could not but praise God, nor otherwise judge, then that it was the Lords doing and was maruilous in our eyes, and that the stone which the builders had refused should be made the head of the corner. Which words are only applied in the new Testament by the Apostles and Euangilests to our saviour Christ: & were in my judgement as blasphemously applied to Caluin, as the other were by the Pope to himself  
But I will leave these immodrate and foreign dotages: & specify unto you some of our domestical. I confess to you (saith the displayer of men in their colloures) I reverence D. 
Page. 37.  Fulke: and no disparagement unto any, I think him universally as well learned as ever Caluin or Beza was. And in an other place: 
Page. 34.  Put it to the censure of D. Fulke, D. Whittakers', 
Page. 37.  Master Cartwright etc. Men I hope as well able to judge: as all the L. Bishops in christendom. Again: No question, but Caluin and Beza are wide sometimes. Also afterward. The very ornaments of your university indeed, 
Page. 87.  whose very names and lives do carry with them estimation to be reverenced: D. Fulke: D. Goad: D. Whittakars: to these men I appeal. And furthermore. If we should once or twice and use it not, 
Page. 112.  set D. Fulkes learned judgement against the bare authority of Caluin and Beza in this case, I do not see that it be any great prejudice or disparagement unto any. diverse other such like speeches there are in that book, whereby a man may see, how the brethren are affected unto their partetakers. Although he nameth some, who will never thank him for it, and I suppose he hath done them great injury, in making them to seem the patrons of such fancies, as there are maintained.  
I made mention before of Cartwrights' place, amongst certain disciplinary worthies. But my meaning is not so to pass him over, whom all the rest of our men do so admire. His authority in deed is very great, as being in effect the patriarch of them all. Those things that he writeth, are almost oracles. Happy is the brother: that can come in his company. If he be in prison, prayers are made for his deliverance: if he be delivered, great thanks are publicly given unto god for the same. If he command, the rest obey: if he shall relent; I think they will all relent. When great matters are to be handled: he must needs be one in every place: Coventry, Cambrdige, London, etc. And upon any new accidents: the occurrents are carried to him, as to their chiefest counsellor.  
Salute our 
a Chap. to F. 1585.  most reverent brother master Cartwright, for whom prayers are made with us.  
As soon as I 
b M. R. to F.  know of master Cartwrightes delivery, I sent for master Travers, and we had psalms of thanksgiving & prayers to the same purpose and a sermon: his text being the 20 of jeremy. 10.11.12.13.14. verses.  
I perccive by those 
c Wake to F. 1587.  imperfect writings of master Cartwrightes and others, that the points of reformation are at large and particularly debated.  
We want 
d Gelli. 10▪, F. 1586.  books, whereby we may come to the knowledge of the truth. I mean T. C. books.  
The form of 
e Fen. against Bridges. 120.  government set down by T. C. is commanded by god.  
I thank god 
f Far. to Lit. 1586.  I have satisfied in part my longing, with conference with M. Cartwright: of whom I think: as she did of Solomon  
I would 
g Gellibr. to Field.  gladly know when I might come (from Oxford to London) to see T.C.  
Master Snape, 
Snape to Bar. bon 1590.  upon one of his examinations before her majesties Commissioners in causes ecclesiastical, finding some matters to have been further disclosed, than he looked for: presently directed his letters thereof, into the country, moving his friend, that master Cartwright might be advertised. It were good (saith he) you sent to T.C. with speed.  
I would gladly hear whether T. C. did council you, or demand council of you. 
heart to Field.  I wish the matter may be well and closely handled. For I hear some whispering already (yet among them that favour the cause) that he hath counseled the brethren rather to use those corruptions, then to leave their charges. I wish and hope it be not so: not only lest men should judge the man to be inconstant, but especially for that these times be such, that in them such yielding will do no good.  
Master D. Bridges having occasion in his writings to name Master Cartwright: did forget to carry this word M. under his girdle: but called him plainly Cartwright. Whereat see how master Traverse repineth. 
Travers def. pag 32.  We acknowledge and reverence master Cartwright, as his rare gifts of knowledge & zeal & his learned works, & constant suffering in this cause, and at this time his continual travel in preaching the Gospel, do worthily deserve: for which cause he was worthy other respect, than the replier here doth give him. If he would needs set down his name, he should have considered the example of the Apostle, who yet seldom or never mentioneth any minister of the Gospel by name, yea scarce any professor, without some good mark of the grace of god in them. But this and a great deal more, both he, and whosoever shall serve god, as they ought, in this cause of the further reformation of the Church, must account to endure of them, that oppose themselves to this most necessary service. I had lately some speech with Master Cartwright concerning our next meeting, who advised me to put you in mind of some things, 
Lord to Fen. ●589.  etc. He saith that at your late being together at Wroxall, you determined our next meeting to be at Warwick at the quarter Sessions that twesday, for the humbling of ourselves: and the day following to consult of other matters. His request is, that you will give notice thereof unto the brethren of our conference, and also that by your means, there may be some of us appointed to exercise in private that day. If this his request cannot conveniently be performed, than I take it necessary thot you write so with some speed to M. Cartwright, that he may provide a remedy else where.  
M. May and I rid with M. Cartwright to M. Throgmortons', two miles out of Warwick; where he preached: more he said then ever he did in his life before etc. 
Farmer to Little. 1586.  On tuesday M. Cartwright kept M. Fens lecture: text psalm 122. 4. unto the end: taking thrones as Tremellius doth, and urging the discipline, the want whereof he affirmed to be the cause, that some friends forsook our church, and enemies (as Papists,) would not come near her. 
C. Garton to Field.   
I pray you remember to reserve for me one of the rare birds books his name may be right Cartwright. God be praised though he cannot speak unto us, yet according to his name he doth write. He is a worthy wight.  
Sicut discipuli olim presto habuerunt ipsum Dominum: 
M. Cholm. to Field 1582.  ita magistrum Cartwrightum dominum meum habeo presentem. as the disciples in times past had the Lord himself amongst them, so I have M. Cartwright, my Lord in presence with me.  
And thus hitherto of these poor simple; but yet most palpable parasites. The disciplinary crew, a company of Apostles: and Cartwright their Christ. Christ amongst his Apostles, and Cartwright amongst his Disciples. If Cartwright and such other guides were not supposed by their followers to be very notable Thrasoes, is it possible that any man of common sense, would show themselves to be such flattering Gnathoes? And these are the men (forsooth) that in all their speeches will pretend scriptures. But when they have so done, tell them, that they pervert the scriptures to serve their turns: and that thus, and thus, they must understand them according to the judgement of all the ancient fathers: their answer in effect is this. What tell you us of the ancient fathers? Caluin and Beza, are the best expounders of the scriptures. Master Cartwright is a rare bird, a worthy wight, and as it were, Christ himself amongst his Apostles. They have taught us as we teach: they are our fathers, who have begotten in us a love and a liking of the Geneva Discipline, and them will we follow. In truth it is pitiful to consider: unto what a height of pride many men are grown. It is less subject to offence, to reject the authority of Saint Jerome, Saint Augustine, or any of the rest: nay to refuse them altogether; then to reject the judgements either of Caluin, of Beza or of Cartwright.  
For Master Caluin and master Beza, I, do think of them, and of their writings, as they deserve. But yet I think better of the ancient fathers: I must confess it. And for master Cartwright, it is true, that he hath many good parts in him: but the overweening which he hath of himself, and which many beside have of him, is like a lump of dough, that sowereth both him and them all. You have heard of what account, his writings are with his sectaries: insomuch that one of them saith in effect both for himself and for his brethren, that without Cartwrightes' books they cannot come to the knowledge of the truth. Cartwrights' books the way to the truth? To speak my conscience: they are the way to many gross errors, and seditious fancies. Of all his books I would think, that should bear the price, which containeth the justification of all his devices; and is the last fruits of that Worthies wit: I mean his second reply. Touching the which book, you shall hear master Doctor whitaker's opinion: from whence, (especially if some one or two joined with him), the layer out of men in colours (as it hath been said) will not hastily appeal. Thus he writeth.  
Quem Cartwrightus nuper emisit libellum, eius magnam partem perlegi. Ne vivam si quid unquam viderim dissolutius, ac penè puerilius. Verborum satis ille quidem lautam ac novam supellectilem habet, rerum omnino nullam, quantum ego judicare possum. Deinde non modo perversè de principis in rebus sacris at que ecclesiasticis authoritate sentit: sed in papistarum etiam castra transfugit: a quibus tamen videri vult odio capitali dissidere. Verum nec in hac causa ferendus, & alijs etiam in partibus tela a papistis mutuatur. Denique ut de Ambrosio dixit Hieronimus, verbis ludit, sententijs dormitat: & plane indignus est, qui a quopiam docto resutetur.  
That is, I have read a great part of that book which master Cartwright, hath lately published: vz: (this second reply) : I pray God I live not, if ever I saw any thing more loosely written and almost more childishly. It is true that for words, he hath great store, and those both fine and new: but for matter, as far as I can judge, he is altogether barren. Moreover he doth not only think perversely of the authority of Princes, in causes ecclesiastical, but also flieth into the Papists holds, from whom he would be thought to dissent with a mortal hatred. But in this point he is not to be endured: and in other parts also he borroweth his arguments from the Papists. To conclude, as Jerome said of Ambrose: he playeth with words, and is lame in his sentences: and is altogether unworthy to be confuted by any man of learning. If any shall here object that master Whittakers' was not Doctor, when he writ in this sort: My answer is this. He writ this letter about the same time, that he began to write against Campian: when hè had attained already unto such ripeness of judgement, as there is no more danger he should now be altered in this that he hath written of Cartwrightes' book: then that he should alter hereafter from that truth which he maintained about the same time against Campian.  
And it is true: that he never gave a righter censure of any book in his life. Master Cartwright must content himself with it: and so must his followers. He dependeth himself too much upon Caluin and Beza: and so do many amongst us upon him. Such admiration of men's persons, and of their learning: must needs be very dangerous. It hath ever been the cause of schism. And there was never more mischief like to grow of it: then there is now. For I know not how it cometh about: but you shall seldom find any; who hath once tasted of the Disciplinary potion, that is not forthwith possessed (as it were) with a wonderful opinion, not only of the chief confectioners and favourers of it, but likewise of themselves. And for all other men, Fathers, Counsels, new or old, they little esteem them; if they make any thing against them. I might heap up in this place a number of observations, which have been made many hundredth years since, as concerning such like courses taken by many: and how they never got to themselves any true reputation thereby, but the contrary. But I will spare them therein. Only, I cannot choose but tell them, that the ancient fathers were as wise and learned men, as they are: that the old general Councils ought to be of as great credit with any but mad men, as their conventicles or Synods: that although we ought to depend only upon the word of God: yet for the interpretation of it, we may as safely follow the judgements of the ancient fathers, of the first general Counsels, and of some other learned men: as of any of their chief patrons and masters: that howsoever our own men do think of themselves, yet they are no better than other men: Nay there are many equal to the best of them, and many who are far their superiors. And I take it, that he showeth himself to be their best friends, who by telling them their wants, can bring them to some humility. In which respect Master Cartwright is to thank Doctor Whittakers' for signifying his judgement, touching that his great bundle of shreds: which some rash, and fond men do so greatly admire. It is most certain that although the flattering of Parasites, doth seem to be pleasant: yet the wounds of a lover are much more profitable.   

CHAP. XXX. How falsely they allege the ancient fathers, for their pretended parish Bishops and Elders.  
BY that which hath been said in the 5. chapter; it appeareth unto you, what little help, they are to look for, in the ancient fathers: toward the setting forth of the Geneva plat form. They talk of certain steps & traces of that hare in them: but more they confess in some places, that they cannot find. And yet notwithstanding at another time, and when they have forgotten themselves; they will of purpose (I fear it) to abuse the world stand very much upon the ancient fathers, and brag of their authority exceedingly. As Cartwright doth in these words most untruly: We propound nothing (saith he) that the scriptures do not teach: the writers both old and new, for the most part affirm, and the examples of the primitive Churches confirm. 
T.C. lib. 1. pag 7.  Did ever any man regard Cartwrightes credit? who (considering what hath been noted out of his books in this whole process) doth not pity him, with all his heart, to hear him so far to forget himself? He is a man of good learning, which maketh me to wonder at him. It is surely great pity that ever he was so married unto his Eldership. For, it hath utterly overthrown all the good parts that be in him. The best lawyer that is, when he giveth himself to shifts and to feed his clients with quirks, refusing not to brabble in any cause, be it never so false: he looseth his estimation, and with the graver sort is little regarded.  
How truly Master Cartwright affirmeth: that he and his fellows do propound nothing but that the old writers, for the most part do affirm, and the examples of the primitive church confirm: I trust it hath in part already appeared unto you in sundry places, but especially in the 5. as I said, and in the 27. Chapters. I have heard some counsellors at law, use the very like course of speech: when notwithstanding the cause hath fallen out most directly against them, yet they have cried out: Oh my Lord, we have these and these old evidences to show, such and such depositions do make for us very manifestly: we have yet many witnesses to be examined, and thus they will proceed with many cracking words: as though there had been nothing which had made against them. Is Cartwright able (trow you) to find his Parish Bishops and his counterfeit Lay-Elders, (which two points are in effect all in all with him) in the ancient fathers and primitive Church▪ 
T.C. lib. 3. pag 42.45.  He may say as truly: that the Son shines at midnight. But yet he saith; that Ignatius and Cyprians Bishops, were but as our pastors or parsons arein every parish. For his unministering Elders, he allegeth the same Ignatius and Cyprian: and for a surcharge, he bringeth in also Tertullian, Hierome, Possidonius, 
T.C. li. 1. p. 113.100.99.  and Socrates: where they make mention of priests. I was once purposed to have set down the places themselves, which they so violently pervert, to bolster out such their apparent falsehood: and to have answered them. But then I remembered how effectually that had been done already by divers learned and worthy men: and of late more fully and largely by two especial persons, whose books one of them is in printing, and the other presently coming to the press: and thereupon I altered my mind in that point. And yet something thereof agreeably to the course which hitherto I have observed, that may peradventure amaze some of them.  
Upon some occasion falling out: master Cartwright affirmeth, 
T.C. lib. pag 183.  that if the now Lord Archbishop of Canterbury had read the ecclesiastical stories, he should have found easily the Eldership most flourishing in Constantine's time: uz. in having then such Bishops and Elders as he fancieth to himself. For he must be so understood. 
D.W. pag 652.  To whom reply being made, that he should bring but one ecclesiastical history, that affirmed so much: after some three or four years, he brought two: uz. the history of Magdeburge, and Eusebius. His testimony out of the first he setteth down in these words. The centuries must needs have told him, that the same orders and functions of the church were in that time which were before. And what would he infer hereof? Surely if hemeane honestly, and do not dally with the word (before) referring it further than the Centuries meant it, which was but to the age, that succeeded the Apostles, he could not have directed a man, to any history now extant, that doth more directly confound his assertion. For there the authors of that history, do most plainly affirm: that by and by after the Apostles death, necessitas coegit personarum gradus aliquos constituere et conseruare: 
Cent. 2 de gub. eccl. Chap. 7.  necessity compelled (the fathers then living) to ordain certain degrees of persons in the church and to conserve them. This is most directly against Cartwrights' assertion: although for mine own part (to note it by the way) I think the Apostles, knowing the necessity mentioned, had taken that order before. But to follow the said history. There were three degrees then ordained, say the said authors: uz. Episcopatus, presbyterium, Diaconatus: the degree, of Bishops, of priesthood, and of Deaconship. For the proof whereof they cite Ignatius, Eusebius, Theodoret, etc. and the very place of S. Jerome: where he showeth how for avoiding of schism, one was chosen amongst the ministers, to have pre-eminence over the rest, and to whom the name of Bishop was peculiarly then attributed. And as concerning the priests or Elders they do show it out of Eusebius, Nicephorus, Irenaeus, justine, etc. that their office was to preach the Gospel, and to administer the sacraments, etc. The Centuries thus we see; will not serve M. Cartwrights' turn, 
Ibid.  to the justifying of the flourishing estate of his Eldership in Constantine's days. I will therefore come unto his secod authority, which he bringeth out of Eusebius.  
It is manifest (saith he) that the churches were governed under Constantine by Bishops, Elders, and Deacons: by that which is recited of an infinite number of Elders and Deacons, which came to the Council of Nice with the 250. Bishops. It is manifest indeed. 
Euseb. lib. 1. de vit. Consta.  And it is also as manifest; that there were at that time, both Archbishops and patriarchs. But there were at that Council; both Bishops Elders and Deacons. And what then▪ I know that many men have wrested many places, directly contrary to the author's meaning: but I do not remember any one place, within the compass of my small reading, that is more grossly perverted then this place is. For M. Cartwright running still his old biace, would have men to think, that by Bishops, Eusebius meant so many parishe-ministers, and by priests or Elders, his said counterfeit Aldermen. And his authority is so great amongst his sectaries, (who profess their Gleaninge after him, 
1 Pag. R.B. sea. paos. 50. ) that whatsoever he bringeth, they take it upon his credit, and so run on with a conceit, that not only all other authorities, brought by him, out of the ancient Fathers mentioned, are truly by him expounded and applied, but that also even this place of Eusebius, is to be understood, as here he would have it. Wherein surely they are much to blame, to depend so much upon any man's credit. If they themselves had ever read, either the Fathers, or the ecclesiastical histories, they could never possibly, have been miscarried so palpably.  
A friend of mine having some talk, not many years since, with Master Cartwright, about this place of Eusebius alleged and expounded by him, as you have heard: urged him very earnestly, that he would indeed, tell him truly; whether he (being a man of learning, and so could not be ignorant of Eusebius meaning,) did not sin; even against his own conscience, when he cited that place, to such an end and purpose, as he had done. His answer was, that he did not: and that he was still of the same mind therein, that he was before. Why Sir, replied my friend. As Eusebius sayeth: that there were an infinite number of Elders and Deacons, which came to the Council of Nice, with the 250 Bishops: 
Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 8.  So it is reported by Socrates, that in the said Council, it had been decreed by the Bishops &c. (but for Paphnutius,) that Bishop's Elders & Deacons, should have companied no more with their wives: Quas cum erant laivi in matrimonium duxissent, which they had married, when they were lay-mennes. And now must we expound Socrates in this place, as you do expound Eusebius▪ doth Socrates' mean by priests there, your manner of lay Elders? was the Council bend, to have debarred such men from their wives? Speak your conscience truly I pray you. Master Cartwright answered again: that he verily thought in his conscience, that by priests there, Socrates understood the said Elders, and that the Council meant, to have separated them from their wives. And this reason was: because within a while after there was some question, whether Subdeacons' might marry. My said friend replied again, that he was very sorry to hear his answer: and that he verily thought, the like interpretation of Socrates words, was never made before, nor would ever be made (he hoped,) by any after him. And so they parted.  
Afterwards my said friend, finding that when he told some persons of great place, how M. Cartwright did expound the said words of Socrates, they would hardly believe him, but supposed rather that he had mistaken them: did write a letter unto him, desiring him most earnestly that if he continued in the same mind he left him, he would be content to return unto him, in writing, some further reasons thereof, then formerly he made at his being with him. Master Cartwright hereupon, writ back again unto my friend (I have his letter in my custody) excusing himself, that through want of books, he could not satisfy his expectation so fully as he would. But for the point, 
T.C. Lett. 18. Mart. 15.90.  I speak of, thus he writ. Touching that it seemeth strange unto you, that the governing elders should have been in danger to have been forbidden marriage in the council of Niece: I thought I had satisfied you, in alleging, that not long after, there was great hold amongst the counsels, whether Deacons, yea Subdeacons', should be married So as now, that which before stood only upon the credit of the relator, is ready to be showed under master Cartwright's hand, as it hath already been to divers of this disciplinary disposition: who (as I have been informed, and partly do know) all of them, have utterly signified their great dislike of that point. And yet either he must of necessity so interpret Socrates, or else be driven to give over Eusebius, and so both he and all his Aldermen, to take their leave of the Ecclesiastical histories, and bid them adieu.  
But yet there is another thing in master Cartwright's said letter, which is very fit for you to understand, that so you may see how he foileth himself. One thing (saith he unto my said friend) in your letter, I think you mistake me in: that you esteem that I should hold a bishop and a minister of the word, all one, in the times of the Nicene council. For notwithstanding that I hold, that in the Apostles time, and with S. Paul, it is all one to be a bishop and to be a minister of the word, yet it were a foul ignorance in me, if I should not have known, that long before the council of Niece, the name of bishop was for the most part appropriated to one in a church. C̄osider I pray you, how the man was mistaken? If by elders, Eusebius should have meant his counteirfet lay rulers, must he not then by his 250 bishops most necessarily have meant so many parish ministers, pastors or parsons, except he will say that there was no such ministers there, which were as new a paradox as the rest. But how agreeth this? of the difference he confesseth betwixt a bishop and a minister of the word, long before the council of Niece, with some other of his sayings elsewhere in print, such as there are. 
T.C. l. 1. pa. 99  The bishop that Ignatius speaketh of, was but the minister of a particular congregation. Again, Cyprian's Bishop was nothing else, but S. Paul's bishop, that is one that had cure and charge of one flock. 
T.C. l. 1. p. 100  Again, the bishop which S. Cyprian speaketh of, is nothing else, but such as we call pastor, or as the common name with us is, Parson, and his church whereof he is bishop, is neither diocese nor province, but a congregation which meet together in one place, and be taught of one man.  
Now join these things together, and see what a Gallimawfrie ye have. May not a man misdoubt, that master Cartwright is not yet resolved of his own opinion? Have not his scholars great cause to rejoice in glaining after so constant an author? What can he pretend to salve his credit withal? He will never seek a refuge for shame out of these words, uz. For the most part. As though he should thus expound S. Jerome, where he saith, that when some began to hold of Peter, some upon Paul, and some upon Apollo (which was as I take it, in the Apostles times) it was then decreed throughout all the world, that for avoiding of schisms, one minister, who was called a bishop, should have authority and jurisdiction over all other ministers in his diocese, that is true (should Cartwright say) throughout all the world, except at Antioch and Carthage (too little hamblets) where Ignatius and S. Cyprian were but plain parsons, even like the parsons of Hitchin and Newington.  
Not many years since a friend of mine was commanded for a certain purpose, to contrive the cheese matters in controversy about the pretended discipline, into certain questions. And it is pertinent to the matter I now speak of, to acquaint you with two of them. The first (because of the pretence which is made, as you have heard, of the ancient fathers) was this. 
A Question  Whether can it be showed out of any ancient father, out of any council, either general or provincial, or out of any ecclesiastical history, for the space of 1500 and odd years, even from the Apostles times, till of late, that in the ordinary distribution of church-officers (since that time ever used) into Episcopos, Presbyteros, & diaconos, Bishops, priests, & deacons: whether can it (I say) be showed, that this word Episcopus, that is, Bishop, was at any time taken there, and used by the churches in any country, for a common and usual name to all ministers of the word and sacraments, without, distinguishing thereby any one of them from another, or was: it not ever within the time limited taken and used only in the said distribution, for one amongst the ministers of the word and sacraments, that governed the rest both of the ministers and people within their circuits limited unto them?  
This question with the rest was sent to master doctor Raynolds in Oxford, to the intent he might return his opinion of them, which he forbore at that time to do, in respect of certain other business that he had in hand. Howbeit, master doctor Robinson, (his especial & most familiar friend) being acquainted, as it seemeth, with the said questions, hath written in this sort upon another occasion, not dissenting therein, as I take it, from master doctor Reynolds. 
D. Robins. answ. exhib. to the L. Archb. of Cant.  I have (saith he) maintained it in the pulpit, that the titles of honour which we give to bishops, are no more repugnant to the word of God, than it is for us to be called wardens, precedents, provosts of colleges. And in my judgement, they may with as good conscience be governors of their diocese, as we being ministers, may be governors of colleges of ministers. Neither do I think, that this was a late devised policy. 
Revel 2.1.  For I am persuaded, that the angel of the church of Ephesus, to whom S. john writeth, was one minister, set over the rest. For seeing there were many pastors there, why should S. john write to the angel of the church of Ephesus, and not rather to the angels, if there had been no difference amongst them? 
Act. 20.17.28.  And if this presidency had had that fault, which is reproved in Diotrephes, as S. Jerome proveth, that the jew had not corrupted the original text, before Christ his coming: Quod nunquam dominus & Apostoli, 
jeromin. 6. cap. Esay.  qui caetera crimina arguunt in Scribis & Phariseiss, de hoc crimine quod erat maximum reticuissent: So I may say, neither would our saviour, who by his servant reproveth those disorders which he found in the seven churches, have passed over this great fault in silence. Therefore as Titus was left to reform the churches, 
Tit. 1.6.  throughout the wbole Island of Crete: so I am persuaded, that in other places, some of that order of pastors and teachers which is perpetual in the church, even in the time of the Apostles had a prelacy amongst their brethren, and that this pre-eminency is approved by our saviour. And if we come any lower though the word Episcopus, signify that care which is required of all, & in scripture be applied to all, that have charge of souls: yet I do not remember any one ecclesiastical writer that I have read, wherein that word doth not import a greater dignity than is common to all ministers. Neither do I think that any old writer did under the name of Bishop, mean the pastor of every parish. When the emperors were persecutors, we read of several elders, but never of more than one bishop at once in Rome: the like is to be said of other great cities, 
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Heb. 1●. 20. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 1. Pet. 5.4.  and the churches near adjoining. And to meet with that offence which is taken at the name of Archbishop, because that name is so appropriated to Christ in scripture, that it is no where given to any other. I take it that there is no substantial difference between archbishop, 
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 1. Cor. 3.10.  and archbuilder. Either therefore the Apostle offended in taking too swelling a title, when he called himself an archbuilder, or chief builder, or it must be granted, that this title may in some degree be given to men without derogation to Christ.  
And thus far doctor Robinson, with whom if master doctor Reinolds do agree, I see not whither the factioners will turn them: for (as I take it) they will not reject his opinion. They have bragged much of him indeed, and of his judgement (in sundry of their writings) as though he were wholly on their side: and that they held nothing, but he would justify it. Howbeit, they have done him therein (I doubt not) exceeding great injury. For requital whereof, I would wish him never to seek any other revenge, but to turn them to his book against heart, where he hath written his mind, as touching this point now in hand.  
In the Church of Ephesus (saith he) though it had sundry 
D. Rainol. pa. 535.  elders and pastors, (he useth these two words in one signification, as by the sentence going before, it is manifest) to guide it: yet amongst those sundry, was there one chief, whom our saviour calleth the angel of the church, 
Act. 20.17 Revel. 2.1.  and writeth that to him, which by him the rest should ●now. And this is he, whom afterwards in the primitive church, the Fathers called bishop. For, etc. the name of Bishop, common (before) to all elders and pastors of the church, was then by the usual language of the Fathers appropriated to him, who had the presidentship over elders. 
Cip. Epi. 13.  Thus are certain elders reproved by Cyprian Bishop of Carthage, for receiving to the communion, them, who had fallen in time of persecution, before the bishop had advised of it, with them and others.  
Here than you have two for Oxford, touching the language of the ancient fathers, when they speak of bishops. Now you shall have a Cambridge man's opinion, no more but of one (I tell you) at this time: marry he shall be such a one as the brotherhood, if they be of the painter's mind before mentioned in the chapter, may well be compared with the other two, seeing his judgement is laid in equal balance there, both with Caluins and Bezaes', and that without any disparagement unto them, you know whom I mean, it is master doctor Fulke, who in his confutation of the Rhemish notes upon the new testament, writeth thus: Amongst the clergy for order and seemly government, 
D. Fulk confut. Annot. Tit. 1. v. 5.  there was always one principal, to whon by long use of the church, the name of Bishop, or superintendant hath been applied: which room, Titus exercised in Creta, Timothy in Ephesus, & others in other places. Therefore although in the scripture, a bishop and an elder is of one order and authority in preaching the word, and administration of the sacraments (as Hierome doth often confess) yet in government by ancient use of speech, he is only called a Bishop, which is in the scriptures called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Ro. 12. 8. 1. Tim. 5. 17. Heb. 13.17. that is, chief in government, to whom the ordination or consecration by imposition of bands, was always principally committed, etc. Which most ancient form of government, when Adrius would take away, it was noted amongst his other errors. Hitherto doctor Fulke, so as hereby I trust it may appear to master Cartwright's reproach, and to all their shames that shall pretend any authority from the ancient fathers, to impugn the right honourable & lawful calling of Bishops, not parsons in every parish, but Bishops in their diocese and provinces, appointed in the Apostlestimes, for the right order and government of the church of Christ.  
The second question before mentioned, being as concerning priests or elders, was, as it followeth. Whether can it be showed out of any ancient father, out of any council either general or provincial, or out of any ecclesiastical history, for the space of 1500 & odd years, even from the Apostles times, till of late, that in the said ordinary distribution, since that time ever used of church-officers, into episcopos, Presbiteros, & Diaconos, Bishops, priests and deacons, whether I say, can it be showed that the word presbyter, priest, or elder, was at any time taken and used for certain mere lay men, as craftsmen, husbandmen, citizens, gentlemen or noblemen, such as should be chosen for a year or two, to be assistants unto the ministers of the word, for the better government of the church, as to have authority with others, to ordain and impose their hands upon a minister of the word and sacraments, to bind and lose sins, etc. using in the mean time their several vocations▪ as they did before, and ceasing after the said one or two years, without any offence committed by them to be any longer presbyteri. Or was it not ever within the time limited taken & used only in the said distribution for the ministers of the word and sacraments? Unto this question, one hath made this answer. The word Presbiteri was never otherwise taken since the Apostles times, in that distribution: but for the ministers of the word and sacraments, as it is most evident to any that shall peruse the ecclesiastical histories, or will take any pains to read the writings of the ancient fathers. But of this point before it be long, you shall hear more by one, who, as he hath done every thing he dealeth with, so hath he handled this very notably. Now in the mean while, according to the order which hitherto I have kept, it shall be sufficient for me, that the three said doctors, men well accounted of with master Cartwright, and his adherents, and such as will not be thought to speak any thing partially, may deliver their opinions, as touching this matter. For to my understanding, they are as direct in this point, what the word Presbyteri should signify in the ancient fathers, as they were before, in the other of Bishops. If in the said ancient Fathers, the name of Bishop be appropriated to one that had a greater dignity than was common to all ministers, and that by the name of Bishops, they never understood the pastors of every parish, as doctor Robinson saith. If in the primitive church, and in the Father's language, they were called Bishops, that were the chief, and precedents over the rest of the priests or elders, even such as our Saviour himself, by the holy Evangelist S. john, doth call angels, as doctor Reynolds affirmeth. If by ancient use of speech he was only called a Bishop, which in the scriptures is called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 If the elders that were subject to these governors, were of one order and authority with them, in preaching the word, and administration of the sacraments, as doctor Fulke hath written, against the jesuits: doth it not follow most necessarily, that all the Clergy being deduced into three degrees, uz. of Bishops, priests or elders, and deacons: that by priests, the ancient fathers must needs understand the rest of the ministers of the word and sacraments, that were no bishops? except any will be so impudent, as to say, that they were none of the clergy. He that will doubt hereof, let him doubt for me, whether the sun be up at noon.  
Besides, doctor Raynolds showeth, that Cyprian's elder did administer the sacraments. And for doctor Fulke, after he had once encountered with the papists, and amongst many other points, was come to this whereof I speak, concerning the name of priests, as it is a distinct degree under bishops: though before, and peradventure then also, he had a great fancy to the consistorial Aldermen, yet then that he was driven to deal directly and truly: consider how he was enforced to alter his disciplinary style: Those priests or ministers that are made among us, 
Defen. of the Engl. trans. p. 163.  are the same elders that the scriptures in Greek calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and in the bishop's letters of orders, they call them by the name presbiteri: which term, though in English you sound it priests, elders, ancient seniors or ministers, it is the same office which is described by the holy ghost, Tit. 1. and in other places of scripture. 
Conf. of the Rhem. pa. 46  Again, We refuse not the name priest as it cometh of presbyter, etc. it is odious to some that know not the true Etymology thereof. 
Ibid. pa. 210.  Again, The name priest, as it is derived of the Greek, we do not refuse it. Again, It appeareth by many places of Wicklifs works, and namely in his homily upon Phil. 1 that he acknowledgeth the distinction of bishops and priests, 
Ibid. p. 339.  for order and government, although for doctrine and administration of sacraments they are all one. Again, 
Defence of the Engl. trans. pa. 185 Ibid.  In the fathers, Episcopus and Presbyter, Bishop and Priest, are two distinct degrees. And again, In the fathers the word Presbyter is one degree only, that is subject to the Bishop. Whereas therefore master Cartwright with his followers, do pretend that they propound nothing which the writers both old and new, for the most part do not affirm, and the examples of the primitive churches confirm. As that where the ancient fathers and ecclesiastical histories make mention of bishops and priests, they understand by bishops, his parish parsons; and by priests, his counterfeit Aldermen: believe both him, & all that glaine after him therein, as they deserve, and as by the premises you shall judge there is cause.   

CAP. XXXI. How and with what disagreement they wrist and misconstrue the scriptures, in the behalf of their pretended discipline.  
ABout the year 420, there fell a great contention betwixt the bishops of Africa, and Zosimus the bishop of Rome. The point in question, was this: whether it was lawful for them of Africa to appeal from the proceed of their own bishops to the bishop of Rome. Upon which occasion partly, there was a council held in Africa, termed the sixth council of Carthage, wherein S. Augustine was present. The bishop of Rome hearing of this council, and that it was assembled especially about that matter, sent thither his factors▪ Faustinus bishop of Potentia, with other two priests of Rome, Philippus and Asellus. In this council, when the said question began to be debated, the bishop of Rome's factors (being for their wit and learning, three of the especiallest men that Zosimus could find out, for such a purpose) did deal most expressly against the bishop of Africa, for the prerogative and jurisdiction of the see of Rome. In all the which contention, notwithstanding the said factors were such excellent men, & used the strength of all the wit and learning that was in them, yet they could not find any one argument, in all the scriptures, nor in all the fathers, nor in all the world, whereupon they might insist, but did wholly rely upon a pretended cannon of the council of Niece. Which cannon, after much trouble, many letters written, and answers received, was proved to their faces, by the said African bishops, to be a most false and a counterfeit cannon. At this time these arguments for the Pope's authority had never been heard of. Neither thou art Peter: nor, confirm thy brethren: nor feed my sheep: nor, unto thee will I give the keys of the kingdom of heaven: nor any of the rest, which now are alleged out of the scriptures. As the bishops of Rome by their practices did grow in greatness: so their parafits by their flattering, did draw and wrest the scriptures to maintain their pride. In as much, that of later times, even as children do imagine that the bells do ring, whatsoever they will sing: so there is almost nothing in the scriptures mentioned, no not from the sun in the firmament, to a piece of silver found in the mouth of a fish that was catched with an angle in the sea: but that the schoolmen, and other popish writers, do presently conceive with themselves, that it tendeth to the setting forth of the pope's great power & glory. You have heard in the second chapter, by what arguments M. Caluin induced the ministers & magistrates of Zuricke, and so likewise (as I take it) of the other three cities there mentioned: to write (as they did) for the obtaining of his presbytery at Gene●a. It th●n sufficed him, that they were content to say but thus much for his sake: that this platform of discipline, did cast but an eye as it were, toward the word of God. He neither urged them with the jews Sanedrim, nor with their synagogues, nor with tell the Church, nor with the elders that rule well, nor with any such persuasions. It is true, that although when he first devised that platform, 1537. I suppose he had not thought of many places in the scriptures, whereupon he might build it, yet before his said practices with them of Zuricke, 1553, etc. he had in some of his commentaries and other writings, made mention of those places specified: but yet he had done it very modestly, rather thereby to prove his own platform to be lawful, than to impeach the form of church-government, allowed of and established, in any other reformed churches. So as, when he dealt with them of Tigurine, for as much as he himself was persuaded that the form of discipline then at Geneva, was not only in itself lawful, but for that place also, most fit and convenient, he alleged not any one text of scripture for the continuance of it there, but only showed what mischief would ensue in that place, if it were abolished: and therefore craved their assistance in manner and form, as he gave them direction. Marry after it was by his means more fully established: then for the better preservation of it, you would hardly bethink it, what wring and wresting there hath since been made of the scriptures, to underprop it, with this translation, with that note, with such an interpretation, and with such a collection. In so much as now there is seldom mention made of elders in the old or new testament, of the words, congregation and church, of the greatest and chiefest judges, of bishops, of rulers, of thrones, and of the kingdom of Christ, but master Beza, junius, Danaeus, Cartwright, Travers, and all their scholars: do think they hear a sound that ringeth out most plainly in their ears, a formal peal of their presbyteri platform.  
Having occasion to talk upon a time, with an artisan of Kingston, about his refusal (after the purest fashion) to be examined upon his oath: because I saw how pert he was, & rapt out text upon text (full ignorantly God knoweth): I was so bold as to examine him in the second petition of the Lords prayer, demanding of him, what he thought was meant by this word, kingdom, ther● mentioned. Whereunto he made in effect this answer, without any staggering: We pray (saith he) that our heavenly father, would at the last grant unto us, that we might have pastors, doctors, elders, and deacons in every parish▪ and so be governed by such elderships, as Christ's holy discipline doth require. And surely as it was with this fellow, so is it with the most of those, that talk so much of reformation, (as well with the scholars, as with very many of their masters) put them out of their theme of railing against the orders of our church, and of extolling the pretended platform of their counterfeit discipline: and for other points which are of the substance of religion, you shall find them most ignorant. And (as I take it) the reason thereof is this: because they have found this fantastical devise, magnified and extolled so exceedingly, by a most lewd application of all those places of scripture (in a manner) unto it, which are written of the spiritual government of the holy ghost, in the hearts of the faithful (as hereafter it will further appear unto you) that they almost care for no other points, so as they can babble of discipline, and whet their tongues like razors, to wound all those that do impugn it.  
You may remember, that in the fift chapter for the finding out of the beginning and institution of this pretended eldership, we were carried by degrees, first to the return of the jews from their captivity, them to M●ses time, & thirdly almost to the days of Noah, they might as well have brought us within a generation of Adam. Now according to these devices, the scriptures are framed to serve every one of their purposes. For the manifestation where of, I will take no very long course, nor enter into any full discussing of those places, which I find to be perverted (that work being performed already, in divers learned men's writings, and as it will appear to all the world more fully hereafter) only my meaning is, that ye might perceive, and still observe, how agreeably all things concur together in the building & setting out of their disciplinary Babel. It is nothing else, but (as oft I have said) a mere fantastical dream. And therefore by God's providence, that men might the better discern it, and so take heed, lest they should be deceived with such a vanity: it is framed according to the nature of such a fancy, with discords, contrarieties, disagreements, novelties, with stretching & straining the scriptures, as each man is disposed: & I know not, with how many paltries, & unlearned devices. Cartwright, who hath outrun his fellows a very great way, 
Exod. 4. 2●.  pretendeth, that he is able to hammer his eldership out of the 4 of Exod. because Moses and Aaron, when they came into Egypt, did call together, as God had commanded them, the elders of the children of Israel. Here you hear indeed, that there is mention made of elders. Whereupon Cartwright finding that name (after one or two unlikelihoods brought out by him) will needs persuade us that by those elders, that are meant in that place, such like churchaldermen must be understood as he and his fellows h●ue dreamt of. But herein, he is not like to have any good success. For Nicholas Gallasius, a Genevian, to the uttermost, who hath written a commentary upon that book, doth hold it for a certainty, that such elders are understood in that place, as did rule the people, 
Gal. in Ex●. 3.  doctrina et exemplo, by doctrine and example: which should rather agree to those that were preachers, then to Cartwright's unteaching elders. If this interpretation notwithstanding, shall ●ot be thought sufficient to encounter with Cartwrights: then hear further two or three besides. 
●el. in Ex●. 3.  Pelican & Simlerus, are both of opinion, that neither Gallasius preachers, nor Cartwright's aldermen, 
Sim●in Ex. 3.  are meant there by Moses, but indeed such elders as were civil governors, senators, & princes of the people. And unto these two for an aspeciall advantage, I may add a surpassing testimony of no common person, but such a one as will bring in with him a Rabbin, to assist and maintain as much as he will tell us. Cornelius Bertram, in his book de politia judaica, dedicated to Beza, & printed at Geneva 1580 (with his approbation I doubt not) writeth a whole chapter, of purpose to prove that the said elders were civil magistrates. Haebreos politiam civilem, etc. That the Hebrews had a civil government in Egypt it appeareth, because when Moses was to go into Egypt, 
De poli●. I● ca 5.  he had a commandment from God, that he should go to the elders, etc. Who (saith Bertrame) were the rulers, moderators and governors of that Aristocratical common wealth. For the which his judgement, beside sundry reasons of his own there set down, he allegeth also the testimony of Aben Hezra. So as now, except Cartwright or his adherents in this point, shall hereafter find a more probable likelihood, than hitherto he hath brought forth, to show us their elderships to have had their being afore the law of Moses, both he & they may sue the goose by these men's opinions, for any help they are like to have for that purpose out of any place in Exodus: In very truth the circumstances of those places which he bringeth, being conferred with that, which is said of the same elders, in the former chapter, are so directly against him, as I can but marvel that ever he durst presume to set down such a strange assertion, upon so senseless and childish a supposal.  
And now as concerning the second sort, that content themselves to look no further for their elderships, then unto Moses time, for as much as they have many more shows and pretences to dim men's sights withal, than the former sort have yet invented: I will take an advantage which is laid before me, for the better opening unto you of their jars and disagreements, about those places which are brought out of Moses, and out of some other parts of the old testament. Master Beza acknowledgeth Caluin for his master, and doth evermore term him doctissimum interpretem, the most learned interpreter. And master Cartwright expresseth as much, but yet more fully. For he saith, that master Caluine is the notablest instrument that the Lord hath stirred up, 
T.C. l. 1. p. 32  for the restoring of the plain and sincere interpretation of the scriptures, which hath been since the Apostles times. In respect of which his excellency (as indeed he was a singular man) master Cartwright in another place, maketh this offer to all in effect, that do not like well of the Geneva discipline. 
T.C. l. 1. p. 33.  We will not refuse (saith he) the judgement of master Caluin in any matter that we have in controversy with you. Here is surely a fair offer, and no man can desire a more direct issue. But think you a man might safely take it? Who is so bold (they say) as blind ba●ard? Surely as blind as I am, I will adventure upon it. Shall every thing indeed, be referred to master Caluins' judgement? very well.  
This is then a controversy betwixt us. 
T.C. l. 3. pa. 40.  Master Cartwright, and as many as cleave unto him, do affirm, that the eldership was ordained, & in practice before the la. We deny it. Let master Caluin be the judge. So likewise I do say again, to as many as depend upon master Beza, if they will join with us in the same issue, as reason is they should, master Caluin being their leaders master, and the most learned interpreter of the scriptures. 
Beza. de presb. pag. 104. etc.  Beza, and all such as are tied to his sleeve, do hold it (as I suppose) as an infallible ground for discipline, that Moses did institute this (pretended) eldership, which we deny: and let master Caluin be the judge. A number of places are brought out of Moses books, and out of the Chronicles, and Prophets, by Beza, Cartwright, & all their scholars: for the proof of such an eldership to have been in those times. But we are fully resolved, that all those places which they bring for that purpose, are wrested from their right meaning, and do constantly deny, that there was ever any such eldership in being, in those times. And therein also we say, let master Caluin be the judge. Although peradventure there may be divers, that will refuse to stand upon this trial, as attributing more skill in the scriptures to Beza, and to themselves, than they do unto master Caluin: yet Cartwright is surely bound, to stand to his offer. Now then, what calvin's judgement is in all these points: it is necessary to be considered. Surely you have heard it before in the fift chapter. 
Cap. 5. pa. 81.  The sum whereof is this: that the said pretended eldership was never thought of in the world, till after the captivity. And the reason why then it was ordained, he saith, was this: uz. because it was not lawful for them at that time to create a king. As though he should have said that, if the jews might have had a king according to their former custom in times past, such a manner of government had never been once thought of. Whereas therefore Beza, Cartwright, and the rest that contend so eagerly for the Genevian discipline, 
T.C. lib. 3. p. 4. etc. Bez. de pres. p. 102. etc.  do fill the margins of their books with sundry texts out of the old testament, as out of Exod. 4.29. and 17.5. Deut. 1, 15. and 17.12.2. Chr. 19.8. jere. 19, 1. Ezech. 8.1, etc. where there is speech of elders, senates, and seats of justice. Master Caluin, you see hath given sentence against them, and doth in effect with Erastus, expound all those elders of the people, & all those consistories or senates (for aught I can find) to be civil officers, and civil courts, appointed for the civil government of that people and nation. Besides also in the place of Leviticus concerning the priest's office, of putting a difference between the holy & the unholy, between the clean and the unclean (from which words master Beza is enforced to set the institution, and jurisdiction of his eldership) master Caluins' exposition is there in like manner altogether against him, and wholly agreeth with Erastus' mind. uz. that thereby Moses meaning was (as it is word for word set down by the prophet Ezechiel) that the priests should teach the people out of the law what was holy, what unholy; what clean, what polluted: and that as Malachy saith, the priests are and aught to be the interpreters of the law. Now, if master Beza, master Cartwright, and the rest, will stand to master Caluins' judgement, who is so excellent an interpreter of the scriptures, what shall become of their eldership? Neither Moses, the Chronicles, jeremy, nor Ezechiel, can help them: and to have Erastus' expositions thus justified, and theirs rejected, I suppose they will not endure it. Their only shift then, & plea must needs be, as I take it, that first where they extolled M. Caluin so highly, for his interpretation of the scriptures, their meaning was always to except themselves, and secondly as concerning their offer, that they are yet content (if we will, to refer it to M. Caluins' judgement, whether there ought to be an eldership or not in every parish. Marry for the proofs that must uphold it, for the time of the institution of it, and for such matters, therein they will leave him, as never meaning to be judged by him in those points, which is, as though the eye and the ear should say, the one that it could see better, & the other that it could hear better, than he himself that made, both the eye and the ear. Well, I am fully persuaded, that if M. Caluin were now again at Geneva, but for 3 or 4 days, and should find M. Beza with all his partakers, Cartwright, junius, & the rest, so mightily plunged for the maintenance of his devise, as that they should be driven some of them to run into Egypt, some into the wilderness to mount Sinai, some they know not whither, and all of them to run so far out of his paths, he would be greatly offended, & much amazed at the matter: could he take it in any good part, that Beza specially, being a man whom he had made such choice of, to be a principal defender of the consistorial discipline, should by his intermeddling with the government of other churches, have pulled so many men upon him, as that for the defence of his own at home, he should be driven to seek the first institution of it in Leuit. 10. v. 10. & either there to hunt it out, or to give it over in the plain field. Surely there is great reason he should. But what is that to me? otherwise than that you thereby might be informed, what constant hold their pretended holy elderships have hither to found in the old testament, and how they agree in the interpretation of such scriptures as should sustain them.  
Lastly, as touching master calvin's own opinion, for the institution of his eldership after the captivity of the jews, there doth not come into my memory at this present, any especial place alleged by him, out of the scriptures to that purpose. Neither do I find in him so much, as that God did ever command this Sanedrim which he speaketh of, to be ever erected. Only he saith, Hoc legitimum fuit Deoque probatum regimen, 
Cal. math. 18.  They are a lawful regiment, & allowed of God. Allowed of God, not commanded. I know that Cartwright & some others, 
T.C. lib. 3 pa. 40.  do bring for the continuance of their pretended elderships, after the captivity, certain places out of Ezra & Nehemiah, 
I.B. polit. p. 101.  where there is mention made of the chief of the fathers and of elders, 
Ezr. 1.5. & 2.68. & 10.8.  likewise of certain that stood by Ezra, 
Nehe. 8.4.7.9.  when he preached to the people, but the places are so apparently wrested, as no man that readeth them, can be so dull, but he must needs discern it. But I marvel, 
Cal. in Math. 18.  what master Caluin meaneth, when attributing to the Sinedrium or council erected by the jews, after their return from Babylon: Censuram morum & doctrinae, The censure of manners and doctrine. In another place (where he speaketh of the said constitution, or erecting of it) he affirmeth, 
Cal. in Nu. 2. v. 16.  that the 70 elders which were from time to time chosen, to be of the Sanedrim, were of the stock of David, and of their former kings. I hope they will not say, that consequently their counterfeit elders, ought all of them to be of the blood royal. But briefly for this matter of the Sanedrim, or courts of justice, after the captivity, I cannot judge them to be any other, than such courts and assemblies, as were before ordained by Moses, and had to do as well in civil cawls, 
Sutcl de presb. c. 9 Sutcl. of disc. ca 4. sec. 1.  as ecclesiastical, as it may at large appear to those, that will take the pains to read some part of doctor Sutclifs books, whither for this time, if they list, I send them. And so leaving any further to trouble you with this disciplinary harmony, drawn by the ears out of the old testament: I will come to the new.  
Many things have been spoken of throughout the whole course of this book, which might be fit for this place, as their jarring and disagreement in every chapter, almost hitherto, which always doth rise, because that every one of them in effect (if he account himself to be any body) will writhe and expound the scriptures, as occasions serve, and his affections do move him. The most of those places in the new testament, that master Caluin doth expound, of pastors and preachers only: Beza, junius, Cartwright, and others of the disciplinary mould, (and no men else) do wrest, and violently draw them unto their Aldermen. 
1. Cor. 14.32. Act. 10.28. Phil. 1.1. Tit. 1.7. 1. Tim. 3.2. Rom. 15.16. Act. 26.16.  They (forsooth) are prophets, to whom the spirits of other prophets must be subject: they are bishops, for the feeding of Christ's flock. Of their office it is said, that he who desireth a bishopric, desireth a good work. That which S. Paul speaketh of himself, as that he is a minister of the gospel, and a witness appointed of those things, which he had seen, when the Lord appeared unto him, as he was going to Damascus: junius will needs extend, to these consistorial companions. Hereof you may see more in the sixth chapter, where they ascribe unto them, all those names, that since the Apostles times have only been given to the ministers of the word. Master Caluins' authority is little regarded in this behalf, even of those men, who account him the best interpreter of the scriptures that ever was in the world, these 1500 years. Cartwright being pressed sometimes with master Caluins' authority, in expounding certain places, to be meant of pastors and ministers of the word, where he will needs thrust in amongst them, his Aldermen, doth use this wrangling shift viz. that although M. Caluin say, that such ministers are there understood; yet he saith not, that they only are there understood. By the which manner of evasion, what can be spoken, that may not be perverted? I do not remember that the scriptures do say in any place, that Christ had only twelve Apostles: and then by Cartwrights' shift we may say, he had as many, as we list. Certainly he might have employed his wit to better purposes than he hath done. God will one day require an account both of him and of all the rest of that pack, that take upon them so presumpteouslie, not only to pervert the words and meaning of men, but of the holy Ghost in like manner.  

Apoc. 1.20. & 2.1. etc.  By the Angels mentioned in the apocalypse; we must not understand the Bishops of those 7. churches, that are there named: But whom (I pray you,) and what? Unto the Angel of the church of Ephesus: that is, saith Carolus Gallus unto the pastor: 
Cham Gal. in Apocal. ca 2. juni. annot. ibid. Bez. Annot. Apo. 2.1.  unto the Angel of the church of Ephesus, etc. that is, saith junius unto the pastors of the church of Ephesus: unto the Angel of the church of Ephesus, that is, saith Beza 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is, unto the prelate or precedent, of the presbytery. Lastly into the Angel, etc. that is, 
I.B. de polit. pag. 160. I.B. ibid.  saith, I.B. unto the presbytery. To the presbytery with a mischief? Oh, good words: yea to the presbytery. How so? sane 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Angelus dici potuit: Surely the presbytery may be called corporally an Angel. It is goodly news. Of likelihood, he relieth upon the Apostles words: where speaking of the divinity of our Saviour: 
Col. 2.9.  Saint Paul saith; that in him dwelleth all the fullness of the godhead 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 corporally or bodily: that is the divinity of Christ, and his humanity are knit together substantially, and essentially. And must we say in like sort: set up the pretended discipline in every perish, and then the Elderships so placed in them, and the Angels in heaven will be out of hand essentially tied and incorporated (as it were) together? What a thing is it that Saint john in one word, should have so many and so mystical meanings? Their discipline would blush, if she had any modesty in her, to see the word of God, for her sake thus used.  
The only place in the new testament, which they do rely most upon, and from whence they set all their royal authority, to excommunicate Princes, and to deal with all matters at their pleasures: is that of S. Matthew where it is thus written: 
Math. 18.  If thy brother trespass against thee, go & tell him of his fault between him and thee alone: if he hear thee, thou hast won thy brother: but if he hear thee not, take yet with thee one or two etc. And if he refuse to hear them: tell the Church, etc. Now as concerning the exposition of these words: a man would bless himself to consider, how they are encumbered. You see there is mention made of some thing that is amiss: and that is done against some body. Likewise it is plain, that the thing which is here mentioned, is to be done either privately or publicly: and that certain witnesses are to be used. But if you ask them, what things these are against whom they are committed: whether they must be private or public trespasses: & what kind of witnesses are meant here by our Saviour: (every one of these points being of the very essence of their pretended discipline:) they will tell you their minds, when they know, what to think of all these points themselves.  
Si peccaverit in te. If thy brother sin against thee▪ Nay: that is not well translated. You must say: If thy brother trespass against thee. 
Geneu. translat.  But it were better to translate it: If thy 
b Beza de presb. pag. 50  brother offend or scandalise thee, etc. The word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to sin, in this place, (being referred to men) doth not signify to sin, 
c Beza ibid.  saith Beza, but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is, to offend. The word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hath in this place his proper signification, that is to 
d Sneca. de dis. p. 461.  sin, saith Snecanus. Beza, All sins or 
e Beza de presb pag. 46  offensions are not here meant, but those only, that are called offendiculae, that is stumbling blocks to men's consciences. 
f Sneca. de dis. pag. 460.  Snecanus, All sins are here meant, as well against God as man; howsoever they be committed, either by violence or by deceit, in words, or deeds, of purpose, or unadvisedly. Again Snecanus, Christ speaketh 
g Sneca. ibi. pag. 458.  here of injuries committed. Beza, Christ 
h Beza de presb. pag. 57  doth not speak here of any injuries committed. Gallasius, Christ 
i Gallas. count. Alex.  doth speak here of common faults, and not of those which are more heinous, uz. such as tend to the overthrow either of religion, or of the common state. Caluin, Christ 
k Calu. inst. lib. 4. cap. 12. sect. 4.  speaketh here of all sorts of sins, as well small as great, not only of such as are delicta, little offences; but scelera velflagitia, even the greatest of al. Nay▪ saith Beza, Christ 
l Beza de presb. pa. 53.  speaketh here of no sins, neither great nor small, saving of the greatest sin of all sins, which is, contumacia adversus ecclesiam, contumacy against the church: that is the presbiteri. Again Beza, 
m Beza ibid. pag. 49.  Christ speaketh not here of any offence ob privatum damnum, for private loss, but of an offence that God's commandment is broken. But Snecanus saith, that Christ 
n Snec. de dis. pag. 457.  speaketh of injuries whether we are hurt or sustain loss.  
Si peccaverit in te, If thy brother sin against thee. Caluin, They are deceived, who 
a Cal. est Anabap. Cal. epi. 55.  think that Christ in this place doth not speak, de secretis delictis, of secret sins. Beza, They are deceived 
b Bez. annot. Math. 18.  who think that Christ in this place doth speak, de privatis delictis, of private sins. Gallasius: Facessere 
c Gal. count Alex.  debet quaestio, etc. the question of public and manifest sins, which may otherwise be punished; away with it. For Christ speaketh here de secretis peccatis, of secret sins. Snecanus: Christ 
d Sneca. de dis. pag. 460.  speaketh here of all sins aswell public as private. And Cartwright: Christ 
e T: C. l. 2 p. 66  speaketh here of private sins, and then a maiori, of public. Hereunto also do appertain, the other two points, uz. against whom any of these sins whether private or public are said to be committed, and of the witnesses. Against thee. That is, saith Beza, against 
f Beza annot. Ma. 18. de pres pag. 47.  another, te conscio: thou knowing of it. One committeth an unlawful act, against some other man: thou knowest it, and art thereupon offended: because in committing the said act, he hath broken God's commandment. Against thee. That is, saith Gallasius: against 
g Gal. con. Alex  thee who art injured. In te 
h Snec. de dis. pag. 458.  laeso: against thee that art hurt, saith Snecanus. And master Caluin doth likewise (if I understand him) so expound that place: against thee: reckoning 
i Cal. in Ma. 18  them contentious men, that say otherwise. But now concerning the witnesses, being a part also of this point in hand.  
Since her majesties reign (which the Lord for his Christ's sake continued long over us) there was a great contention, 
Instit. lib. 4. ca 12. sect. 3. Epist. 55.  between two Ministers of the French church in London: N. Gallasius, and one P. Alexander: about this very matter. And as it should seem; there was parts taking. Master Caluins' opinion is with Gallasius, and master Bezaes', with Alexander. Caluin and Gallasius (as you have heard) do think; that Christ in this place, when he saith, against thee, and between him and thee alone, and if he hear not thee &c. doth speak of such a sin, as no man knoweth off, but only he himself, against whom it was committed. Whereupon it followeth of necessity, that when Christ saith: take with thee one or two etc. for witnesses: we must by those witnesses understand witnesses of the admonition, which he (who taketh them with him,) must give in their presence, to the party that had offended. For witnesses of the fact, they could not be: 
●al. con. Alex:  in that they saw it not. So as both master Caluin, and Gallasius, do think, that here Christ speaketh, de testibus admonitionis, of the witnesses of admonition. And Gallasius, amongst other reasons for himself: allegeth this. Non dicit Christus: voca testes, qui rem viderint etc. Christ saith not, call such witnesses as saw the trespass when it was committed: but take one or two. unus certe testis ad rem probandam non sufficeret: but one witness (who may serve as after he saith, to prove a man's contumacy or repentance) is not sufficient to convince a man of a fact, if he deny that ever he committed any such fact. Master Caluin, being asked his judgement hereof, by the ministers of Neocomum, as it seemeth: writ unto them, after this sort: Quod postea etc. 
Cal. epist. Neo come. 55.  That which followeth uz. (if he hear thee not) hoc nostro judicio intelligendum est, non de testibus delicti, sed admonitionis: This in our judgement must be understood, not of the witnesses of the fact, but of the admonition.  
Against this interpretation; hear now what Beza & Alexander have to say. If this interpretation (say they) should be good: 
Beza de presb. pag. 51, Gal, cont. Alex.  consider then, what inconveniences would follow of it: I will set down two; and so refer you to Beza, for the rest. It may fall out oftentimes (say they in effect,) that the party delinquent, confessing his fact to him, that came first unto him, to admonish him of it, will afterwards, when he shall bring one or two witnesses with him, deny that ever he either did, or confessed any such deed? And what then? Besides, it may well enough come to pass, that he unto whom a man shall come, in such a charitable sort, to admonish him; may burst forth into a choler, and say, that he is slandered: and so calling the said man (for his godly mind) into the law, as a slanderer, make them witnesses of his pretended slander, that came to be witnesses of his admonition. For these reasons therefore, 
Alex. con, Gal. Beza.  and for some other; Beza and Alexander will not admit, that Christ should speak here of such private offences, as none knew but one, but of such us that there might be some witnesses of them, if the offenders should deny them. So as now in both their judgements: Christ doth speak in this place, de testibus facti, of the witnesses of the fact.  
Peradventure you can be here content, to hear some answer to these objections. They seem to be of great difficulty, and to carry some matter with them: 
Gal. con, Alex.  which may prejudice master Caluin and Gallasius. But what should men talk of difficulties, when the truth appeareth. Incommoda et inconuenientia non soluunt regulam: Incommodities and inconveniences do not (saith Gallasius) dissolve a general rule. It may be that the party may deny his fact, as it hath been said. If he do: he is to be left to the great judge. Yea; but he will take the Law against the Admonitioner: as a slanderer of him. He may do so indeed (saith Gallasius again): and I have seen experience of it. And there is no other remedy but this: the grave men, that were brought to be witnesses of the admonition, must tell the judge the whole matter, and for what purpose they were brought to the plaintiff. Whereby the judge, may easily understand the injury offered: and then, if he favour the Church, he will send the party to the Eldership, or Ecclesiastical Senate: or else uz. in effect, that the defendant in that action, must bear it off, with his head and shoulders.  
It is no marvel than you see; that our reforming Generation, should cry out so mightily, for the new form of discipline: it is so substantially compact together, and at such great unity in itself. Unto these caterbraules, and pitiful distractions, I might add a great heap of other confusions: all of them proceeding from such intolerable presumption, as is used in the behalf of that Minion, by the perverting, and false interpretation of the sacred Scriptures. But I have been too tedious already in this matter, and therefore to grow towards an end of it. Of all the places of Scripture, which they pretend, to make for such parts of their discipline, as is disliked by the Church of England: as either for their jewish Sanedrim, their parish Bishops, their unpriestlie Aldermen; with their priestly functions, their Genevian presbyteries, or Elderships: of all the places of scripture (I say) which they bring, for that purpose, I profess unto you as in the presence of God, that I cannot find any one, but by one means or other, they have cast such a colour upon it, as was never known in the Church of Christ, amongst all the ancient godly Fathers, from the Apostles times, till these our troublesome and presumptuous days.  
Well, It is not enough for men to allege scriptures, except they bring the true meaning of the Scriptures. For as Saint Augustine saith: Heresies, and erroneous opinions, 
August. tract. in john 18.  do not otherwise spring and grow up, nisi dum Scripturae bonae intelliguntur non bene, & quoth in eyes non bene intelligitur, etiam temerè & audaciter asseritur: but when the good Scriptures are not well understood: and because that which is not well understood in them, is notwithstanding rashly and boldly affirmed, to be the meaning of them. There was never any thing hitherto so fond devised: but the authors of it, did ever pretend they had Scripture for it. For else saith Saint Jerome: 
Hier: add Tit. 1.  the garrulity of such persons, non haberet fidem, would never have won any credit. All sects and Schisms, have risen (for the most part) upon discontentment. And this a man may observe, in the writings of the ancient Fathers: that as many men do marry, and so beget children, before they know how to keep them: so commonly it hath fallen out, in new & strange opinions. Through pride and vanity, they have been rashly begotten: before the authors of them did know how to maintain them. Marry, when once they had engaged their credits, by broaching of this and that, than they ever laboured, not to submit themselves and their opinions, unto the truth: Sed ut sibi scripture as ipsi subijcerent: but (as Augustine saith) that they might bring the scriptures, 
August. count Faust. l. 32. c. 19  to be in subjection to them. Of the which kind of men, Saint Hilary also speaking, saith: that they interpret the Scriptures, 
Hil: de Trinit. lib. 2.  pro voluntatis suae sensu, according to such a sense as may serve their turns etc. Which is (as the same Hilary showeth in another place) non expectare, 
Hil. de Tri. l. 1●  not to expect: for the understanding of those things, which are spoken in the Scriptures, out of the words themselves: sed imponere, but to impose a meaning upon them: non referre sed adferre, not to deliver the true sense of them, but to bring a sense of their own: not a yielding to the words, but a kind of compulsion, enforcement, or violence offered: to make that to seem to be contained in them, quod ante lectionem praesumpserit intelligendum, which they presumed should be understood by them, before they read them.  
Whosoever do deal with the Scriptures in this sort, well they may speak proud things, exalt themselves, promise mountains, brag of the Prophets, of Christ, of his Apostles, and verisimilia mentiri, as many such men in former times have done: whereby for a season some may be deceived: but yet as Saint Cyprian saith: mendacia non diu fallunt. It will come to pass, as always it hath done hitherto: that after a short time the covering of their devices, with so many sleights and falsehoods, groweth to be detected: and then they are paid to their utter discredit, the wages and full hire of such unrighteous dealing.   

CHAP. XXXII. What account the solicitors for this pretended government do make each of other.  
WE have 
a Gilby pag 3.  Christ and his Apostles, and all the Prophets on our sides: we are 
b Gilby pag. 5:  assured we see God's glory. The order 
c T.C. l. 2. Epist  that we contend for, is that which God hath left: the everlasting truth of God. The 
d Ad. 2. pag. 5.  matters that we deal in are Gods, and we may not for our parts leave them. The 
e Ad. 2. pag. 6.  matters we deal in are according to the very will of God. There is 
f Ad. 2. pag. 3.  nothing in our books, that should offend any, that either be or would seem to be godly. God's 
g Ad. 2. pag. 59  cause by us is truly and faithfully propounded. No, 
h Ad, 2. pa 38.  no, God's cause is the matter why we are troubled: well may they confer and yield, for never shall they overthrow the truth which we utter. It is not possible 
i T.C. l. 1, pag. 6  for us to conceal the truth: we can do nothing against it, but for it.  
We 
k Ad. 2. p. 66. 59  are the poor servants of God: and professors of the Gospel: we 
l Gilby pag. 9●  are the poor little ones of Christ: we 
m Gilby p. 34.  are the foolish things of the world chosen to confound the wise: we 
n T.C. l pag. 7,  propound nothing that the Scriptures do not teach, the writers both 
o T.C. l. 1: pag. 16: 17.  old and new for the most part affirm, the examples of the Primitive Church, and of those which are at these days confirm. We stay ourselves within the bounds of God's word: we seek not to pleasure ourselves, but the Lord and our brethren: we seek not the admiration of men: we will patiently abide until the Lord bring our righteousness in this behalf unto light: and our just dealing as the noon day.  
We 
p Motion from Scot pref: A. 4,  are of immortal seed: we are the lawful successors of those men, who through faith quenched the violence of fire: we are those unto whom the Lord made this promise: I will not fail thee: we may boldly say, the Lord is my helper, I will not fear what man can do unto me: we are the 
q Gilb, p, 131, 158,  chief servants of God: most worthy faithful and painful Ministers, feeders of Christ's flock, unreprovable, modest and watchful. Now we the 
r Gilbe, pa. 32,  servants of God must reason with you the Proctors of Antichrist. Paul spoke frankly 
s Gilby pa, 161  against superstition: so do these. Paul was accounted a fool in the world: so are these. Paul counted men's traditions dung and dross, so do these: They have one common cause: Paul was persecuted, and so are these.  
Our 
a Gilby pa, 51;  side detesteth sin and wickedness: preaching the gospel with all faithful diligence. Our 
b Gilby pa, 46  Ministers quietly suffer all evil at the hands of the Magistrates: only refusing to do evil at their commandment: as did john Baptist, Peter, and john the Evangelist, professing they must rather obey God then men. God 
c Adm. 2, pa. 3.  knoweth we altogether seek to do good. There is 
d Gilby p. 111,  none of our side (God be praised) but that he hath some competent knowledge of the Scriptures and in life very honest. Ours do 
e Ibidem.  follow Christ, and labour so to do more and more. They 
f Gilby, p. 112  of the wicked sort take part with their adversaries, but the godly do join with us. We deserve 
g Adm, 2, p, 16.  praise of the law and of the Church of God. Our 
h Adm, 2. pa, 6  zeal (when they rail unmeasurably) is to be measured with the zeal of Moses, Elias, of the Prophets, of john Baptist, of Paul, of the Apostles, of john the elder, and of Christ.  
Indeed, there is almost nothing spoken in the Scriptures, to the commendation of the true Prophets, and Ministers of God: or which may well be applied to such as truly fear the Lord and walk in his ways, but they seem to appropriate the same unto themselves, and their followers: with the same faith and sincerity (I fear) that one in the Gospel (sustaining the person of those which trusted in themselves, that they were just and despised others) said: 
Luke, 18,  uz. O God I thank thee, that I am not as other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers: I fast twice in the week, I give Tithe of all that ever I possess. There is also another reproof set down by the same Evangelist of such kind of men, 
Luke, 16,  which I wish they may look in time to escape: Ye are they which justify yourselves before men, but God knoweth your hearts. To whom though for mine own part I leave them to be judged: yet I have thought it meet to let you understand what Barrow and Greenewood, not privately, but in Print have published of them: Two men, who peradventure have been themselves of the same mind and integrity, that these presently are of: and by their own hearts they do take upon them to judge of these men's hearts now.  
They (meaning our English Consistorians) are most pernicious deceivers, 
Barrowes dis-covery pa: 145  presumptuous 
b pa: 6  shepherds, chief Rabbins, 
c p. 19  Baalmites, wretched 
d pa: 19  disciples of Caluin: 
e pa: 98  blazing stars, and paragons of the Country: new found Martin's saints, glozing hypocrites with God: fasting pharisaical preachers, miserable guides: counterfeit 
f p. 109  false prophets: 
g p▪ 45  Sycophants: trencher-priests that will cunningly insinuate into some great noble man's house: 
h Bar: & Gren: against Giffor: pag. 134  pharisees in preciseness, outward shows of holiness, hypocrisy, vainglory, covetousness, resembling or rather exceeding them. 
i p. 140  Conscience brokers: most 
k p. 174  dangerous and pestilent seducers. 
l p. 134  Sectary precise preachers: abalienaters of the hearts & minds of the people from their pastors, to draw them to themselves.  
The perfidy 
m p. 174  and apostasy of these reformists, is great. 
n p. 151  The perfidy and treachery of these miserable guides: treacherous watchmen, sworn waged marked soldiers of Antichrist: guarding his very throne and person, building the harlot a false Church. Their 
o p: 150  dealing is counterfeit and corrupt. They entangle 
p Bar: Grenw● 134  poor souls by their counterfeit shows of holiness, gravity, austereness of manners etc. These Scorpions so poison and sting every good Conscience, so leaven them with hypocrisy etc. that such proselytes as are won unto them become twofold more the children of hell, than they were before. They 
q p. 7  abrogate the cross of Christ.  
They put on 
r Bar: 149  an outside of gravity and good conscience, they make a 
s 145  merchandise of the word, and an open port-sale of the Gospel. They that 
t 187  sometimes to our seeming sought Reformation and the kingdom of Christ jesus, are now become of all others the most pernicious enemies thereof, daily studying for new cavils and shifts, to hide their wretchedness. They 
v p. 108  suppose themselves to be those servants of Christ that are persecuted. These 
w p: 50.  disguised hypocrites: these ravening wolves, which come to us in sheep's clothing, under glorious and swelling titles of Pastors, Teachers, and Ministers of the gospel, men of great learning, of very holy life, and of great sincerity, seekers and sighers for reformation; and such as abhor and cry out against the Bishops, and their proceedings etc. These 
x p. 50.  pharisees, these Sectaries are they, which mislead the people in their crooked and by paths of death, and will neither lead them, nor suffer them to enter into the peaceable and strait ways of the Lord: but keep them always learning, and never bring them to the sight or acknowledging of the truth. These Prophets by their 
y p. 99:  preachments and long pharisaical prayers do solder the people in their sin, and weary God with their abominable prayers, and hypocritishe fasts, counterfeiting a great sorrow and heaviness for their sins, afflicting their souls for a piece of a day, bowing down the head as a bulrush. We 
z pag. 142.  find not only the marks of false Prophets, which are recorded in the Scriptures upon them: but even Satan's uttermost deceits and effectual delusions amongst them, suborning and transforming them, as if they were Ministers of righteousness, taking unto them, the names and titles of Christ's Ministers, preachers of the gospel, seekers of reformation, etc. whereby he deceiveth the world.  
These things I have repeated, not because I delight in such outrageous depravations, of any that profess christianity: nay I do utterly mislike them. And it argueth of what season those vessels are, from whence they proceed. But I did collect them together for this principal purpose: that therein we might magnify the judgements of God, when we see apparently with our own eyes, the execution of that his most inviolable sentence: 
Luke 6.  with what measure ye meat: with the same shall men measure to you again. For although the former sort of men, in seeking of the Geneva Discipline, do set out themselves (as you have heard) for the Saints of God, (as I trust some of them are) and for men especially sanctified: yet have many of them brought forth most unsanctified fruits: cruel speeches, proud things, scurrilous gybes, many cursings, much bitterness, and a huge mass of most slanderous calumniations; to the discrediting of those things, which either they knew not, or will not know them: and of those persons, whom they were bound in conscience to have reverenced and honoured. And now even in the same manner, they are repaid again, into their own bosoms (as you have heard) by men of their own training up, 
1. Tim: 1  and such as have admired them: ut discant non maledicere: that they may learn to rail no more.   

CHAP. XXXIII. Of the praise and dispraise of this pretended regiment.  
IT is found 
a practise of prel▪ D. 2.  to be the only bond of peace, the bane of heresy, the punisher of sin, and maintainer of righteousness. It is 
b motion p. 46.  pure, perfect, & full of all goodness, for the peace, wealth, and honour of God's people, & is ordained for the joy and happiness of all nations. It is the 
c motion p 84  right stuff and gold for building the Church of Gods. It is termed 
d motion p 69  the venerable doctrine of discipline, the most 
e L. disc. pag, 8,  beautiful order of ecclesiastical regiment: The substantiaell 
f Count. p, 29.  form of Christ's government: Christ's 
g motion p. 4●  kingdom, God's 
h Ibidem p 34  government. This would 
i Ibidem p. 84.  make the Church a chaste Spouse, having a wonderful brightness as the morning: fair as the moon, pure as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners. This goverenment is 
k Epist, before the supp. A, ●,  the sceptre, whereby alone Christ jesus ruleth amongst men. The 
l Mart. junior thes, 14.  Churches of God in Denmark, Saxony, Zurich, etc. wanting this government, are to be accounted maimed, and unperfect. The establishing 
m T.C. li. 1, pag. 3.  of the presbyteries, is the full placing of Christ in his kingdom. It is the blade 
n motion 49,  of a shaken sword in the hand of the Cherubins, to keep the way of the tree of life. It is called 
o Regist. pa. 68  by the Apostle the ground and pillar of truth. I deny 
p Brief dis. against R: B. serm, pag 15.  not but the true government of the church by the Eldership, may have the most of those titles truly attributed unto it, wherewith the visible church under the new testament is adorned. God hath ordained the civil magistrate for the ecclesiastical state, therefore is the supreme kingdom of God in this world,. It is the chief throne of all excellency, wherein God himself doth sit. The political Empire is but a subaltern regiment, et quasi inferius quoddam subsellium, 
Rennecherus in psal, 2, p. 72.  & as it were an under Court, that determineth and decideth injuries, strifes, and contentions etc. idque ad ecclesiasticae oeconomiae praescriptum, and by the commandment of the ecclesiastical government. Those Ministers that prefer the civil magistrate before the Ecclesiastical, 
Rennecherus ibidem pag 74  they flatter him for profit, and their bellies sake, and do shamefully, to the danger of their own souls deceive him. The Ecclesiastical discipline, est inspectatrix et custos, the overseer and keeper of the civil regiment: that the magistrate do not command his subjects any thing either contrary to God's word, 
Ibidem pa. 78  or against nature and honest manners. It is true that was begun to be affirmed, uz. that the spiritual jurisdiction, 
Ibidem pa, 37,  doth in price and dignity so far overweigh the political, as the soul excelleth the body. The spiritual and ecclesiastical government (by Pastors, 
Rennecher. in 2. psal, p., 71. Beza de exco. pag. 4  Doctors, and Elders,) is as much superior and more worthy, than the politic regiment, as heavenly benefits do excel earthly commodities. Presbyterium est interpres Dei: the presbytery is God's interpreter. 
I B. Beza de pres: pa 1. 24  The Eldership may be called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is, bodily an Angel.  
The Presbytery is erected up, pro Christi tribunali, for Christ's tribunal seat.  
He that will read, of the further commendation of this manner of Church-governement: let him peruse some parts of Traverses defence of the Ecclesiastical discipline. 
def: pa. 122  One thing I may not omit: for the which he extolleth some reformed Churches (as he termeth them) where the Elderships do most flourish, above the Skies: insomuch as he saith: the examples of it might make an Infidel and unbeleiver fall down on his face, and confess, that undoubtedly God is amongst them, and in the midst of those churches. 
def: pa. 127  I dare say you are desirous to know, what rare, excellent, and celestial thing that should be, which is sufficient to work such a wonder. You have heard how Rennichere, hath exalted their Elderships or new papacy, above all kings and kingdoms: and now you shall see a singular proof of it. To keep you in suspense no longer, this wonderful thing that Traverse speaketh off is this: uz. that (as it seemeth) some of the said Churches, so highly by him commended, have by virtue of their discipline; excommunicated already some great princes or Kings. If he had not himself published this matter in print, and propounded the same as a precedent for the honour of his discipline: I would not have presumed (ye may be sure) to have touched it. Neither yet will I further meddle with it: then only to set down his words. After a long discourse, how, where there discipline is on foot, there is nothing in effect amiss: no private administration of the sacraments: no baptizing or reading of service by Deacons: no commutation of penance: no respect of persons: he saith thus. 
Ibidem   
Memorable is that rare, but right christian example of Theodosius the Emperor, publicly humbling himself under the hand of God, and professing his repentance for his bloody commandment, and the cruel execution done according to it. A precedent well worthy so christian a prince, the honour of the Discipline, yea and of the whole church of that age. Such Theodosians have the reformed churches of this age to speak off, to the high honour of almighty God, and his only begotten son Christ jesus, king of kings. Wherein a Prince of blood royal, and by birth within a step or two to one of the greatest Kingdoms of these parts of the world, and for princely gifts, worthy to have borne a Sceptre in his hand, and a Diadem upon his head, when as another David, he had been overthrown by Satan, and committed things, for which the name of God was evil spoken off, endured to hear the servant of God (as David did Nathan) to rebuke him: & lamenting his offence openly before the public assembly of the Church, desired pardon of God, and rejoiced heaven and earth, men, and Angels with his conversion from sin, to the obedience of the living God blessed for ever, Amen. Whose christian precedent, both a crowned King, and also a worthy son of that noble Father, have followed, after that by terror of as barbarous cruelty, as hath been committed in any age, they had done otherwise then Daniel, and the young princes brought: up with him did, in a case not unlike to theirs, etc. Hitherto Travers. And what this importeth judge you. I will answer no questions: who these Theodosians are. As princes like it: let them allow it.  
And thus of the commendation of this government: which if it were true indeed, and that it had by any lawful title so Regal an authority, as here you see is pretended, who would not almost fall down and worship it. But you must believe them with discretion. Men that think they know this platform as well, as the best of those that have extolled it: do carry a far differing opinion of it. And therefore they have been bold to write of it, as followeth.  
It is a silly 
a Bar. p. 241  Presbytery or Eldership. A sequestered 
b Bar: Gren: 169  withdrawn Presbyterye. A sweeping 
c Bar: 92  new reformation. A presumptuous 
d Bar: Gren. 79  irregular Consistory which hath no ground in the word of God. A second 
e Barrow 190  beast. Let them consider 
f Bar: Gren. 79  how far the having of such a Consistory, and Pastor in one Congregation, differeth from that Apostolical sea of Rome, and that holy father that sitteth therein. Of this 
g Bar. Gren: 75  Consistory through the whole testament they can show no warrant. They make 
h Bar. Gren: 7  themselves transgressors of the worship of God, disturbers & violaters of that holy order, which Christ hath established in his Church. These deceitful 
i Bar: 142  workmen not only build their own timber and stubble devices, but most highly profane that heavenly frame and gracious government of Christ. In their 
k Bar. 151  leavened and corrupt writings of discipline, and their supplications unto the Parliament, are declared, their pernicious forgeries, and sacrilegious profanation of God's holy ordinance. They fetch their 
l 〈…〉  reformation from the primitive defection. That counterfeit 
m 〈…〉  reformation, which these counterfeit preachers pretend, is as evil as that which is already. Both these 
n 〈…〉  factions, pontifical and reformists, would assume the whole government of the Church into their own hands. How can o these forgers, these coiners of religion, seem & sue to cast out the heap of human traditions, as contrary, and such as cannot be joined unto, or with the testament of Christ: and yet bring in these forgeries of their own. Is it likely 
p Bar: Gren: 75  or possible that our Saviour Christ would fetch his pattern for the Elders of his Church, and the executing of these high judgements, from that corrupt degenerate Synedrion of the jews, which by the institution of God was merely civil, and not ordained for causes ecclesiastical: as appeareth Exod. 18. Num. 11. Deut. 1? The priests bearing the charge, and having the deciding of all ecclesiastical causes Num. 18. Deut. 17. But this Council of theirs, was now mixed of the Elders of the people and the Priests, and handled all causes, both civil and Ecclesiastical indifferently. Mat. 26.3. Act. 4.5. 
q Bar: Gren: 261 . If by the light of God's word, you examine and measure the secret Classis, the ordinary set Synods and Counsels of ministers (as they term themselves) which these reformists now privily bring in, and would openly set up: they shall no doubt be found as new, strange, & antichristian, as prejudicial to the liberty of the Saints, and to the power, right, and duties of the whole Church, and as contrary to the gospel of our Lord jesus Christ: as the government by Bishops etc. what show so ever of former antiquity, or of present necessity they may pretend. It is a new, r adulterate, forged government in show, or rather in despite of Christ's blessed government: which they in pride, rashness, ignorance, and sensualytye of their fleshly hearts, most miserably innovate, corrupt, and pervert. Their most exquisite 
s Bar: 220  plots of government, which they can devise unto themselves, are but the instruments of foolish shepherds to their own perdition, and of as many as are governed by them.  
There is great difference we may perceive hereby, between the opinions of these two sorts of men; concerning this presbyterial form of the new pretended discipline. If any that are possessed with the former men's conceits, shall lightly esteem what this second sort of fellows do hold or think of their platform: he is to be put in mind, that they are not so lightly to be regarded. diverse ministers well reckoned of heretofore for their learning: are lately fallen from Cartwright, and his sect, into another more new frenzy of Barrowisme. In a letter that was taken not long since: I find some points to this effect. The preachers of Midleborow and Flushing, have both given over their unlawful callings. M. johnson hath written a most learned discourse, concerning the striking of a new covenant, with some conferences had in that country. It is also reported, and I am persuaded, by that which I have seen, that the report is true: uz. that master Penry, is entered in like manner into this new kind of covenant. A matter, that would seem very strange unto me: but that I know the nature of schismatics, to be of such giddiness: as that no one thing will content them long. What stirs hath he kept in England: first with his two supplications unto the high court of Parlaiment: his humble petition unto her Majesty: his exhortation unto the governors and people of Wales: his Theses and libels, which came out under the name of Martin and his children (wherein he with his companion a certain gentleman were, if not authors, yet especial dealers) and then with his treatises out of Scotland. That reformation (he meaneth the setting up of Cartwrightes' Eldershippes) is no enemy to our state: his humble motion (if not made by him, yet procured by him to be printed): His discovery against D.B. and with diverse other pamphlets, and most railing discourses? In all which books he hath showed such earnestness in the behalf principally, of Cartwrights' discipline: that he hath offered to pawn his life many times for the justification of it. Which course of his, by reason of his marvelous vehemency, wrought very greatly, (as all men know) with certain rash and unstaid persons, who have been since so far overcaried, with an opinion of the arguments there used: as it hath been given out many times by them, that they could never be answered. And yet now if he be one of Barrowes church: notwithstanding all his former writings and arguments, you have heard his opinion, out of his brethren's mouths: both of Cartwrights' presbyteries, and of all those likewise that do maintain them.  
Some will say peradventure: that for Penry, they never made any reckoning of him. And it is well. But what if one of their patriarchs begin to waver? How if master Traverse be inclined that way? For mine own part: I do not think him so simple a man. But yet you shall hear what goeth abroad amongst that brainsick generation: as it is set down in the letter before mentioned. There is good hope (saith the writer of it to one of his friends) of one Master Traverse about London, (as I think) but how far he is come, or whereat he stays, I cannot at this time certify you. But howsoever he standeth affected, you may assure yourselves, that this latter schism groweth on very fast. In somuch, that as Cartwright and his brethren began, eight or nine years since, to set up, and put in practice, their Genevian discipline: so do these new upstartes, begin to erect in diverse places, their Barrowish Synagogues, and I know not what cages of frantic schismatics. One Collins a man amongst them, not unlearned (as it seemeth) doth write in this sort hereof. Ecclesia potenti eius dextra adiuta, etc. The church assisted with the mighty right hand of God, hath chosen ministers: Master johnson for her pastor: Master Greenwood for her Doctor: Master Studly and Master George Knife, for her Elders: Nicholas Lee and Christopher Browne for her Deacons. The other assembly also (whereunto are added, john Nicholas: Thomas Michael: john Barnes, and some others with me.) with God's assistance, will begin out of hand, to create unto itself ministers.  
And thus they go on forward headlong, god knows whether. I am persuaded, that if there be not good order taken in this behalf, there will some mischief grow of it The number of them doth increase daily more & more. And for the repressing of them; it will not be sufficient (in mine opinion) to use the ordinary course by the ecclesiastical censures or commission. For they are entered into a league amongst themselves, of all manner of secrecy for the not detecting one of another in any of their proceedings, when by great chance some two or three are met with all. If you find any writings amongst them: you may thereby learn some thing peradventure: otherwise they will confess nothing. And offer them an oath, not to accuse themselves, but to purge themselves; and as witnesses, to signify their knowledge in those points, they are to be examined off, 
Rh. Test. act. 23.  as touching other men's facts: they have gotten the jesuits doctrine (as you may see it in their annotations upon the Rhemish Testament, and amplified lately by Cartwright and his crew,) that they may neither accuse themselves, nor their brethren, for doing of those things, which they allow off themselves. If their number should increase; so as they might be able to do, and set up what they list, according to one of their grounds. uz. without any longer staying for the Magistrate; and so should break forth into open rebellion; they might by no means be examined upon their oaths, because they will say they have done nothing, but what they were bound to do; and that therefore, they might detect no man, whereby to bring him, within the compass of any law, for doing his duty.  
But I will not enter into this matter: the cause I mentioned it, is the increasing of this schism, and their league of fidelity one to an other. I said the number of them would daily be augmented: and you shall have my reasons, why I think so. They are verily persuaded, that they hold almost nothing, but what Cartwright and his scholars have taught them. One of them hath taken upon him, to prove the chiefest of their new assertions, by their more ancient propositions. I like well (saith Greenewood in a letter intercepted) of the arguments you have drawn against them from their own grounds. Again: Surely it were a notable work, and no doubt might do much good in these times, for some one that God hath endued with sound judgement and sharp sight, to gather the majors or antecedents, of all those scattered pamphlets of Penries' or martin's etc. and put new minors or conclusions unto them: and so in one little nosegay, but as bog as an almanac, to turn them upon themselves, and present them unto them, for an answer.  
There are two especial points, for the which we dislike them: their departing from our churches, & the framing to themselves of a Church of their own. And for both these points, hear what they may say, and what indeed in effect they do say, and consider withal of these things, which here I will set down: as sufficient matter for a minor, that Barrowe may work upon. Thus our holy consistorians have written; uz. That the government of our Church is by the popish 
a Glby pa. 77.  Hierarchy, & so is both 
b Admon. 1. pa. 25.  Antichristian and devilish, that it is accursed, and 
c Hay any pa. 13.  that none but traitors to God, do defend it: that our 
d Gilby pa. 90.  religion is patched with the pope's: whereby we join fire and water, heaven and hell together: that we want a 
e Admon. 1. pa. 2.  right ministery: that in the order 
f Adm. 1. pa. 24.  of our service there is nothing but confusion: that we eat not the 
g Gilby pa. 2.  lords supper, but play a pageant of our own, to make the silly souls believe they have an English mass: & 
h Gilby pa. 2.  that so we put no difference betwixt truth and falsehood, betwixt Christ and Antichrist, betwixt God and the Devil. A dunghill of such like sayings, might be heaped together, which they have cast up, out of the froth of their zeal. whereupon now barrow, taking his advantage; doth frame his argument in this sort. It is not lawful for the children of God to submit themselves to the government of Antichrist, nor to join themselves, to those congregations, which have in their service, nothing but confusion, and in the lords Supper put no difference between God and the Devil. But such is the government of the Church of England, and such are their congregations. And therefore we may not submit ourselves unto that government, nor join ourselves to their congregations. If now, the minor were true, which he assumeth from the Consistorians: you see how the argument would follow. So that as Penry & some others have done already: let all the sort of the other crew add but Barrowes majors, unto their own minors: and forthwith in this first point they are become mere Barrowistes.  
And as concerning the second point wherein (as I said) we disallow them: it is, their framing to themselves a new Church platform. Which doth thus far agree with Cartwrightes: that they must have (forsooth) in every assembly, their Pastors, Doctors, Elders, and Deacons, and that the Church new framed after their fashion, must have all the authority that Cartwright doth challenge to his Elderships: of dealing in all matters of manners and doctrine, and in executing their censures against any person without exception whosoever. The chief differences that are betwixt them, are generally two. The first is vz: that whereas Cartwright, could have been contented to have erected his Elderships in every parish, taking them as now they are: they say the parish assemblies are popish and unlawful: they would have them dissolved: and they will have their Elderships set up amongst no people, but first they must enter into a new covenant. The other chief difference in like sort I take to be this: that Barrow in all his platform, will have the people to join with their Elderships further, than Cartwright doth allow of. And for his opinion herein he relieth altogether in effect upon Cartwrightes grounds.  
It is not unknown what a plausible course our English Disciplinarians have taken, that thereby they might the more easily draw the people unto them. He that will peruse the first admonition, which Cartwright maintained, 
T. C. lib. 1. pa. 35. lib. 2. pag. 325.121.221.225.226.229 etc.  and consider withal, the places of his books that are noted in the margin: shall well perceive, how earnestly they entitle the people to a wonderful interest in Church matters. They tell the people, that they are greatly injuried in this and that: that they ought to choose their Ministers: that imposition of hands should be in their names: that the censures of the Church were to be executed with the people's consent: and what must be done almost, but the people must have an oar in it. Howbeit: (all this great show of gratifying the people notwithstanding:) Cartwright by snatches here and there doth so powder his matters: 
T. C. lib. 284.193.213. etc.  that in effect he giveth them only an empty bottle to play withal. For his Eldership (forsooth) must go before the people in all their actions: that is, as though he should have said: what the Elderships think meet, those Angels, those interpreters of God, those tribunal seats of Christ, the people in all reason ought to content themselves with it, and to give their consents unto it.  
Now hereupon Barrow, proceedeth. He taketh Cartwrightes reasons in the behalf of the people: but denieth his shifts to be currant, whereby he would take that from them again, which he had before given unto him. And thereupon doth rail upon him, and all the rest of that association: for such their dealing and abusing of the people. These reformistes (saith Barrow) for fashion sake give the people a little liberty to sweeten their mouths, 
Bar. Discove. pag. 195.  and make them believe they should choose their own Ministers: yet even in this pretended choice do they cousin and beguile them, leaving them nothing but the smoky wind of election only. Again. The counterfeit reformistes, they would exclude the Church from the censures: assuming them only into their own hands: either into the priests hands with his silly presbytery or Eldership, which he overruleth at his pleasure in every particular congregation: or else into their Synods and Councils, which have power over all Churches, and every member and action thereof to excommunicate and absolve, to make & depose, to ordain and abrogate without the privity or consent of the Churches, etc. And thus they subvert the liberty of the Church: and pervert the ordinance of Christ. And again: How unnatural are those members, which thus separate and seclude themselves, 
Bar: against Giff. pag. 76.  yea rather sequester and seclude the whole from them: and arrogate and assume the public duties and power of the whole, into their own hands: as though God had given all gifts unto them: and they had no need of others? And thus puffed up with pre-eminence of their own place, and excellency of their own gifts: they despise all the rest, as base, ignorant, unworthy to be in their consistory, to have any voices of consent or dissent there, alleging them to be tumultuous, contentious, factious, ungoverned, ignorant, inclined to the worst, etc.  
And this is (as I said) the second especial difference (as far as I can see) betwixt the Elder Consistorians, and these new Schismatics. Wherinto how easily a man may fall, that hath digested, the Genevian and Cartwrightian pretences made against our Bishops for the people's interest: I commit the consideration of it, to your own discretions. So that (as I said): I say again, and again: that if good order be not taken, this schism will daily increase and grow to be dangerous. But do I call it a schism? The word is too mild. They are indeed all the sort of that infection, a compounded mass, of (I know not) how many heresies: but principally they are Donatists in some respect, and mere anabaptists in some other. I have thought upon it a hundredth times, and have marveled at it: that the now L. Archbishop of Canterbury could foresee so directly, what would be the issue of the first admonition. If you would be pleased to read his exhortation, before his confutation of that admonition: You shall find, that, what he hath there written long before this monster was hatched in England, he could not, if he were to write again, well writ otherwise then there he hath done: saving he might say, that the mischief which then he foresaw, would come to pass, by reason of the boulstring of it, by those, that should have had more wit and judgement, is now apparently beginning to show itself to as many as have eyes and wisdom to see.  
Surely those men, that have been made instruments heretofore, to commend unto the whole realm, I know not what books and platforms, tending directly to the utter overthrow of the present government of the church of England, with the whole form of our service of God, and all our laws, orders, ceremonies, and privileges thereunto appertaining, & to have had the Geneva discipline established in place thereof: may greatly rejoice at their good discretion: considering, that if then they had prevailed, we had admitted of that form of church-government which the very chief supplicators, & instigators of them at that time, do now themselves condemn (as you have heard) into the pit of hell, and so they might have been as ready to have set forward this second devise, as they were for the former.  
But men I hope will be more careful hereafter, then to be carried away with every novelty, if it have but any show of reasonable probability. And master Cartwright, with the rest of his chief adherents, might certainly do God and the church great service, if without any longer standing upon the maintenance of their own credits, they would be content to confess their former oversights, in laying down those false principles, whereupon the new heretics do build, and acknowledge the truth, uz. that the present government of the church of England, as both holy and Apostolical, and that the reformation of religion already made, by her majesties most princely care and heavenly direction, is such a reformation (abuses there may be, and it were heresy to dream of any purity) as every good Christian ought to praise God for it, from the bottom of his heart: and not only to allow of it, but to maintain and defend it, both with his goods and life. Master Cartwright began well in his epistle against Harrison: but he should do better if he would so continue and proceed forward. One extremity is best discerned by the other. Barrows folly may teach him wisdom. The consequence doth often show the grossness of the Antecedent. And many learned men have been brought by the importunity of such kind of adversaries, to see their own mistake, and so to grow unto a far better moderation. As even in the chapter following, and in this very cause of discipline, it will appear I trust unto you.   

CAP. XXXIIII. Of their disagreement, concerning the necessity of the consistorial government.  
IT were very hard, if the favourers of the Geneva platform, should urge the same with any pretence of necessity. They talk of pastors, doctors, elders, deacons, widows, and of many things else: but as yet, besides their obstinacy, to continue in the course which they have begun, for the maintenance of their credits: they are not thoroughly agreed almost in any thing. To tell us therefore of a matter that should be necessary, and withal to confess in effect, that they know not what it is: should argue in my opinion, some very great rashness and folly. When master Caluin dealt with master Bullinger and others, for their good favour and friendship towards the continuance of his new devised platform in Geneva (as you have heard at large in the second chapter) there was not a word (you may swear it) of any necessity, that all other churches should be enforced to submit themselves to that devise. M. Caluin himself at that time (as I am persuaded) did not so much as dream of any such matter. A very grave and learned man of the French nation, hath faithfully reported, that when the form of the Geneva discipline, was first admitted of by the ministers of France, in one of their chiefest synods, which hath been kept there of late years about the Church affairs, it was not then received by them in that assembly, as a necessary order prescribed by Christ, that ought always to be continued, but as a form of discipline, convenient and fit for the afflicted estate of their churches in those times, which might afterwards be altered and changed, as occasions should require.  
And because you might not doubt of the certainty of this report. You shall understand, that the author of it was himself present in the said assembly, and not a man of the meanest account amongst them. With whom also, another great person of that country, a man of state and great learning agreed, when he affirmed to one of very good place in England (as the same party hath told me) that the form of discipline which is now received by the French ministers, was never meant by them to be otherwise admitted of, then for an interim, till things might be better considered of, and ordered. These testimonies I urge no further then as reports: neither would I have you to give any further credit unto them: then as you shall think meet, upon this my bare relation. Howbeit whether the persons specified, did make any such report or not: it seemeth to me, that the thing itself is true, which they are said to have reported. For thus I find it set down in the end of the form of Ecclesiastical discipline agreed upon by the resolution, 
Eccl. disc. of France.  not of one, but of five general Synods of the reformed Churches of the realm of France. These articles (say they) which are here contained touching discipline, are not so decreed upon amongst us, but if the profit of the church shall require, they may be changed. But it shall not be in the power of one private man to do it, without the advise and consent of a general council.  
In all master Caluins' time (for aught I find) the necessity which now is pretended for the consistorial discipline: was no where insisted upon. A church in those days, might have had all the true notes of the church of Christ: although it had wanted that platform of Geneva. Master Caluin in his Institutions could find but two necessary Simbola ecclesiae dignoscendae, 
Calu. instit. lib. 4. cap. ●. sect. 9.10.  verbi predicationem, & sacramentorum obseruationem: signs of discerning the church: the preaching of the word, and the observation of the sacraments. Bertrand de Loque in like sort: he was able to bring forth no other substantial notes of the Church: 
Bertr. de ec. cap. 3.  but those two. No more was Philip of Mornay, the lord of Plessis. He maketh mention indeed of a third mark, uz. the lawful vocation of pastors: but he saith, that, 
P. Mar. de eccl. cap. 2.  it is not a mark of substance. In the great assembly at Poitiers in France, 1561, where Peter Martyr, A Marlorat, N. Galatius, and divers other ministers of the reformed churches were present: master Beza being there also, and having his turn to speak before the king of France, the queen of Navarre, the cardinal of Lorraine, and sundry other bishops he, durst not insist upon any other firm and certain notes of the visible Church of Christ, 
Comment. de sta. relig. par. 1. fol. 121.  but the two notes mentioned purum dei verbum & sincera sacramentorum administratio, the pure word of God, and the sincere administration of the sacraments. There are (saith he) some that do add ecclesiastical discipline, and the fruits of preaching: sed, etc. duabus illis erimus contenti: but, etc. we will be content with these two first. Agreeably to this doctrine, that there are but two necessary and substantial marks of the church: the chiefest learned men in Christendom both abroad and here at home with us, have entered into the combat, with the cruel and mortal enemies of true Religion, the papists.  
But now it is found out by master Beza, and some others (forsooth) that all the said learned men were deceived, and that the platform of the Geneva discipline, is an essential note of the church of Christ, and as necessary as the word of sacraments. If I should deliver these two points unto you upon my bare word, without any further proof, I think you would scarcely believe me. Hear therefore my witnesses, not to be excepted against I tell you. And first for the pretended necessity, master Beza showing the true marks of the church (saith Cartwright) addeth to the two former, 
T. C. lib. 2. pa. 53.  the discipline framed according to the word. Conf. 5.7 So that whatsoever necessity cometh unto the word and sacraments, in that they are notes, the same cometh also unto the discipline by master Bezaes' judgement. And surely that is sufficient. He were a presumptuous companion, that would not rest in Bezaes' judgement. Well then you see the necessity of their discipline, now mark the essentiality of it. In a certain draft of discipline (whereof you shall hear in the Chapter) agreed upon, and subscribed unto, by Cartwright, and many other ministers of his bent, for a conclusion of that work, they have set down these words. Atque haec disciplina, 
The new book of dis.  etc. And this discipline, the title whereof is inscribed: The discipline of the church described in the word of God, is taken out of the most pure fountains of the holy scriptures, and c omprehendeth the necessary, and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉, that is, essential discipline of the church, common for all times. Take that away from any thing, that which is of the essence and being of it, and (as I take it) it presently ceaseth to have any being at all.  
From the conceit of this necessity of the Geneva discipline, these and many other such like speeches, have been uttered in printed books, to the simple people.  
The 
a T. C. l. 2. in the preface.  want of the Eldership is the cause of all evil.  
It is not 
b T. C. ibid. p. 3.  to be hoped for, that any Commonwealth will flourish without it.  
The 
c T. C. l. 1. pa. 6. & 48.  discipline is no small part of the gospel.  
It is of the 
d T. C. l. 2. pa. 247.  substance of it.  
Without this 
e Register pa. 68  discipline there can be no right religion.  
They that 
f T. C, l. 1. pa. 220.  reject this discipline, refuse to have Christ reign over them. And deny him in 
g T. C. table. Preface to the Demon.  effect, to be their king or their Lord.  
Scis, etc. you 
h Beza. to Sarnicius. epis. 14.  know there is one and the self same author of doctrine and discipline, to what purpose therefore should we receive one part of the word without the other?  
In some sense of 
i Defenc. of eccl. dis. p. 7.  necessary, the ecclesiastical discipline is necessary to salvation.  
It is necessary 
k Defence. 8.  in regard of God's holy ordinance and appointment, the contemptuous breach of whose commandments, be they great or little in our account, is damnable to all those that despise them.  
For 
l Ibid. pa. 33.  the use of the censures, the office of elders is in his place necessary. The deacons office is not so directly tending to the salvation of the soul. But yet being God's ordinance, it is of the necessity of obedience.  
In effect, the 
m Ibid. pa. 33.  ministery of the censures of the church, is in the same absolute degree of necessity to salvation with the ministery of the word and sacraments.  
It is much that hath been hitherto noted for the pretended necessity of this Savoyan church-government: but that is most memorable that Travers affirmeth of the French churches, & of the churches of the low-countries, uz. in effect that it is become already to be one of the articles of their creed. Thus he setteth down their words following, contained (as he saith) in their confessions. We believe the true Church ought to be governed by that policy and discipline which our Lord jesus Christ hath ordained, 
Confess fidei minist. Gal. Act. 25.  namely so that, there be in that, Pastors, elders, and deacons. And the Churches of the Low-countries: We believe that this true church ought to be ruled and governed by that spiritual policy, which God himself hath taught us by his word: 
Act. 30.  so as there be in it, pastors and Ministers, Elders and Deacons, who may make the Signiory of the Church. By that which here is said, being compared with that which hath been said before, of our Englishmen pretended deacons (how they are altogether excluded from having any place in their signiory) it appeareth that they disagree from the Churches of France, and of the Low-countries, in some of the articles of their belief. But you shall hear master Travers very grave collections upon the said two of those Church's confessions: It is very worthy the observation (saith he) that these Churches, 
Def. of eccl. Discip. p. 21.  wherein there are an infinite number of godly men, etc. in such a confession as they declare their faith in: have thought it a necessary article, to set down this point of the policy or discipline of the church: and that in declaring of it▪ they say not what they suppose, but what they believe, using the same word which they do use in the articles of faith and doctrine.  
The papists talk much of the Collier's faith, that believed as the Church believed: but what the church believed he knew not. And truly as Travers saith, it is worthy the observation indeed, that seeing (as I said, and have at large showed it in the former chapters) there is not a church in Europe, which hath received that platform, that can tell for her life, which way as yet to turn herself, for the full maintenance of it: there should be any that would presume to thrust it into their belief, except they do approve of the Collier's faith, and will say, they believe whatsoever master Beza believeth, although neither he himself, nor they do know, what he believeth in that point. I do rather therefore incline to think that Travers wresteth their words against their meaning, and that they only purposed by that phrase of speech (we believe) to show, but their minds and opinions of that form of discipline, not suspecting that any man would enforce that they ever meant thereby to make it an article of their belief. But howsoever either they or any other have formerly meant in the heat of their desires, towards their beloved platform, and so have gone much too far in urging the necessity of it, as being an essential note of the church: yet upon better advise, it seemeth that they are grown a little more cool.  
Master Caluin loved the eldership as well as the best of them, because it was the workmanship of his own hands: but yet he thought it not meet, to make it an essential note of the church, or a matter of the importance of salvation. The Anabaptists with whom he dealt in his time, 
Cal. instruct. ad v. Anaba.  kept him from that extremity, and made him to reverence other churches, and to acknowledge them for such churches of Christ, although they wanted the form of his censuring discipline, as that it was not lawful for any Christian whosoever, to separat himself either from their assemblies, or from the receiving of the Lords supper with them. But if any so did, he assigneth him his place amongst certain old heretics. Olim duae fuerunt haereticorum sectae, etc. In times passed there were (saith he) two sorts of heretics, which troubled the Church greatly. The one sort of them were called Puritans, the other Donatists. And both of them were in the same error, that these dreamers are in: seeking for a Church wherein there should want nothing that might be desired. Therefore they divided themselves from the universal society of Christians, lest they should be defiled with other men's impurities. But what came of it? Dominus eos cum tam arroganticoepto dissipavit. The Lord himself scattered them, with that their proud attempt, Where, by the way, it is meet to be observed, that a man may stick so fast to the Geneva discipline, as he may prove himself to be either a puritan, or a Donatist, or both.  
Master Beza in like manner, by reason of some opposition which hath been made against the Savoyan platform, is grown as it seemeth to some kind of moderation. For speaking of the pretended necessity of it: he saith, that the doctrine only, 
Bez. de pres. pa. 119.  uz. what we are to believe, is absolutely necessary: and also further addeth, that seeing a man sometimes may be saved without the participation of the sacraments: the same may be said much more of the want of ecclesiastical discipline. Now verily we are to thank him, he hath done much for us. We may be saved though the memory of this discipline were utterly buried. But the point which I chiefly note, is this: that there is great difference in master Bezaes' judgement, betwixt the necessity of the first two notes of the church, and this third, of his own devise. And therein he giveth in effect, the flat lie to master Cartwright, for charging him to hold: that all the said 3 notes, as they are notes, were equally necessary. And Travers also is checked by his good master, in that he will needs make, as it hath been said, the censures of his consistories, to be in the same absolute degree of necessity, both with the word and sacraments. But I will follow M. Beza whilst I have him in his good mood. The whole church wanted circumcision in the wilderness (saith he) & whilst they were in Babylon, they neither had temple nor sacrifices, and yet nevertheless, they ceased not to be the people of God. And the same may then be said much more of the ecclesiastical discipline, uz. Ecclesias ut illa careant, tamen ecclesias verè pias & Christianas' esse posse, si doctrinam praecipuorum dogmatum puram ac sinceram habuerint, That the churches that want that discipline, may notwithstanding be indeed godly and Christian churches, if they retain the doctrine of the chiefest grounds, pure and sincere. Now if Beza will give this testimony of a church that wanteth both his discipline and the sacraments, having but only the principal grounds of religion: what should he say of those churches which have not only a better discipline, then that which he urgeth: but also the said sincere grounds, with the doctrine & true use of both the holy sacraments, in as great reverence, at the least, as they have them at Geneva? You shall hear him what he is driven to say, of the present estate of the church of England. The places have been cited in the eight chapter to another purpose. He must be pardoned to come in with his If: because any thing from him, that soundeth not after the Geneva tune, 
Beza contr. Sarrau. pa. 111.  is very much. But if the churches of England (saith he) being underpropped with the authority of Bishops and Archbishops do firmly abide, as this hath happened in our memory to that church, that she hath had men of that order, not only worthy Martyrs of God, but most singular pastors and doctors: fruatur sane ista singulari Dei beneficentia, quae utinam illi sit perpetua, Let her enjoy this singular goodness of God, which I pray she may so do for ever. And in another place, speaking likewise with some good terms of the Church of England, and of our Archbishops and Bishops: he turneth himself clean about, 
Beza ibid. pa. 127.  and saith, that they of Geneva do not prescribe to any church to follow their peculiar example, like unto ignorant men, who think nothing well but that they do themselves.  
Again also the same master Beza, in his book which Erastus confuted, not in that which Beza hath since published, but in the written and true copy of it, he speaketh in this sort, Nomine ecclesia Genevensis, in the name of the church of Geneva, to those that account the Genevian Eldership to be but humanum commentum, a human devise: 
Beza count Erast. fol. 1.  Petimus ut quemadmodum patienter ferimus ipsos a nobis, etc. dissentire: We desire of them, that as we suffer them patiently to dissent from us, etc. so they would hear us, modestly refelling their arguments, nullo cum ecclesiarum preiudicio, quas sibi credit as administrant: Without any prejudice to those churches, that they have taken the charge of. For where some do object, that we account those churches, that want either excommunication, or such an eldership, to be no churches: it is objected, immerito, Deus testis est, undeservedly on our parts, God is our witness: and it is much more a slander, where it is given out, that we do bring a new tyranny into the church, & nostra velle reliquis obtrudere: and endeavour to obtrude our form of discipline unto the rest of the reformed churches. Non est ita fratres: It is not so brethren. Furthermore in like manner in the same place afterward: 
Ibid.  Quicunque vero hanc disciplinam in suis ecclesiis, non modo inutilem, verumetiam noxiam fore judicant, fruantur sane suo sensu, etc. Whosoever do judge this discipline not only unprofitable but hurtful to their churches: let them enjoy their own sense. They undoubtedly do see what their flocks will endure, neither doubt we, but that men of so great learning, and of so great antiquity, our reverend brethren in the Lord, have their reasons: Et quis nos constituit alieni gregis judices? And who hath made us judges of other men's flocks?  
He seldom hath uttered a truer speech. But how these sayings do agree with that which he hath said before in the third chapter, you may not curiously scan it. Indeed he should seem to be far now from his former opinion, when he said in effect: 
Epis. 24.  That it was to little purpose for any church to admit of the gospel, and to reject his discipline. But he writeth in mine opinion, as (it hath been said of old time) some courtiers in the world do use to speak: that is for the most part, as the present occasion serveth their turns. Such company they may fall into, as they will commend him to the skies, whom not past an hour before, they had in an other company depraved peradventure most egregiously. And master Beza, you must imagine, hath been an old courtier, and knoweth well what policy meaneth. Plain dealing certainly is best: but oftentimes it falleth out that it is not the readiest way, for hammering and busy far reaching heads, to compass their purposes. If this excuse do seem too simple, let any that list make a better. No man doth wish it more hearty (as I think) than myself, that master Beza should think well of the present church-government established in England: so he do it plainly, faithfully, and directly, which will not happen (I fear it) in haste. Neither have I alleged his former words to that purpose, as though I took all that for gold, which he can make to glister. The point I prosecute, is this: that you might perceive, how they begin to leave off from urging the Genevian platform, with such important necessity, as formerly they have done.  
But most of all it pleaseth me to see, how master Cartwright draweth homeward. For as the Anabaptists by their madness kept master Caluin within some good compass, and as master Beza hath been compelled in some sort, to retire himself from his former eagerness: so assuredly the phrenetical giddiness of these our new unbridled schismatics, who for pretended purity are many degrees beyond all the Savoyan disciplinarians, hath wrought a miracle (to my understanding) upon M. Cartwright. For hear him, how for fear of falling into flat Donatisme, he was fain to plead against one (that had been his scholar) in the behalf of the church of England, so bitterly before by himself impugned. 
Th. Cartw. to Harrison.  The ordinary assemblies (saith he) of those which profess the gospel in England, are the churches of Christ: which he proveth in this sort. Those assemblies which have Christ for their head, and the same also for their foundation, are God's churches. Such are the assemblies of England, therefore, etc. Again, they that have performed unto them the special covenant which the Lord hath made with his churches, of pouring his spirit upon them, and putting his word into their mouths are the churches of God: but such are the assemblies in England, therefore, etc. Hereunto may be added (saith he further) the judgement of all the churches of Christ in Europe, all which give the right hand of society in the house of God, unto the assemblies which are in England. Again, to prove that the church of England is the church of God, notwithstanding it want the pretended discipline: he useth this distinction: that as it is in man's body, so is it in this matter, there are certain parts essential, and such as without the which a man cannot stand, and some serving either to his comeliness, or to his continuance. And of this latter sort he maketh the discipline, and lastly he writeth thus: To say that the church of England is not the church of God, because it hath not received this discipline, me thinks is all one with this, as if a man would say, It is no city, because it hath no brickwall: or that it is no vineyard, because it hath neither hedge nor ditch. Thus far master Cartwright.  
In which his manner of speech, you find a very great alteration, from his ancient style. And as concerning the necessity whereof I entreat, the wind you see is turned. There is no more necessity in England of the Geneva platform, then that every city in this realm should be walled about. And beside, the pretended discipline is become not to be any longer of the essence of the church, but as appertaining to the comeliness of it. But how these things will accord with the premises, & namely his subscription before mentioned, to the new book of discipline, where the same discipline is made to be essential, or whether master Cartwright hath changed his judgement again, since he writ that answer to Harrison: I will leave it to be discussed by them that know his unrevealed mind better than I do. In the mean time, that which he hath granted, I think it meet to take hold of. And this I will add unto it, that if master Cartwright would but confer with some that have skill in fortification, to know of him whether an old thick wall of lime and stone, made many hundred years since, or a new sleight wall slubbered over, and wrought with untempered mortar some few years ago, whether (I say) of these 2 walls are of better defence for any city: I should be in good hope, that he would in short time, leave the disciplinary walls of Geneva, and content himself with the ancient fortifications of the church of England, and the rather because he seethe (as I said in the former chapter) what a giddy and itching humour, his novelties have bred, in the unstaid sort of many fantastical people.   

CAP. XXXV. Of the pretended commodity that the elderships would bring with them, and of the small fruits that they bring forth where they are.  
THat which hath been said of the commendation of this pretended regiment, may fitly be applied to this place. But now further of the commodities, which they say it would bring with it: inseparable consequents (belike) thereof. I will trouble you only with three men's testimonies, who it seemeth have collected together that which is thought fit to be published to this purpose. If we 
a Motion pa. 31.  had this government, God would bless our victuals, and satisfy our poor with bread: he would clothe our priests with salvation, and his saints should shout for joy. It 
b Pa. 27.  is best and surest for our state, and there is nothing comparable to 
c Pa. 59  the establishing of it for her majesties safety. It would 
d Pa. 75.  make men to increase in wealth, and that 
e Pa. 76.  they would not easily be drawn after any great man to sedition and rebellion. That her 
f P. 33.  majesties person hath been so oft in danger; that we have had some dearth of late years; and that the Spaniards attempted to invade this land; they ascribe it to the want of this their government. It 
g Pa 74.  would cut off contentions and suits of la, etc. by censuring the party that is troublesome and contentious, and without reasonable cause, upon evil will and stomach should vex and molest his brother and trouble the country. If this government were restored, than you should see 
h Pa. 64.  learning nourished, young and old called from blindness to light, from wickedness to virtue and piety. Then many would change 
i pa. 37.  their studies from Law, Physic, Music, scholing, etc. and many would leave their trades, and parents would think their cost well bestowed, and diverse ways comforted to prefer their children to the study of Divinity. Then there 
k pa. 84.  would be an unity of the Church. Then should the Papist quail, the Anabaptist wail, and the Atheists be amazed. There 
l pa. 59  could not be so many seduced hanged and quartered as there are. Then no 
m pa. 68  licences could steal away men's daughters, the people should find out the truth and perfection of justice.  
By this the 
n pa. 91.  wealth and honour of the Realm would be increased: and contentions, brawls, and unnecessary pleas would be prevented: idle men of all sorts might be set in order, and the poor men greatly comforted. The nobility 
o pa. 91.  and commonalty might have their right. Men would 
p pa. 76.  not grudge at trifling charges for War. soldiers 
q pa. 77.  would be made obedient to their Captains: patiented 
r pa. 78.  and courageous. It 
s pa. 79.  would bring strength and victory: and keep 
t pa. 91.  out of kings Dominions, ignorant, wicked and flattering men.  
Here out of the defence of Ecclesiastical government. Pag. 121. 122. 123. 127. 134.  
Whereof 
u C. l. 2. Epi.  cometh it that Arrians, Valentinians, and anabaptists, with other detestable Heretics are so rise in many places in this land? is it not thereof that there is no Eldership? Whereof cometh it, that horrible blaspheming the holy and most reverend name of God, quarreling and fight, drunkenness, filthy speaking, fornication, adultery, slandering and such like, run over almost in every place? Is it not hereof, that there is no Eldership? Whereof cometh it that in so many excellent laws provided against rogues and beggars: there are yet such numbers? is it not hereof that the office of Deacons is abolished?  
These are singular commodities indeed which these Elderships would bring with them, if these men might be trusted. But have they brought forth these fruits and effects in those countries where they are established? or are they but vain words of ambitious men, that by such godly pretences do little else but seek their own glory? Consider I pray you, what very learned and grave men have written in other countries of these, and such like men as these and their fellows are: together with the estate of some of those countries, where they have their Elderships.  
Master Bullinger writing to a Bishop in England of our English innovators, 
A letter Mar. 10. 1574  saith thus. They imitate in mine opinion those seditious Tribunes of Rome, who by virtue of the Agrarian Law, bestowed the public goods, that they might privately inritch themselves: that is, that you (meaning the Bishops) being overthrown, they might succeed in your places, etc. But they go about to erect a Church which they shall never advance as they desire: neither if they should, can they ever be able to continue it. And after in the same Letter. I would to God, there were not in the Authors of this Presbytery, libido dominandi, an ambitious desire of rule and principality: Nay I think it ought especially to be provided for; that there be not any high authority given to this Presbytery, etc. Whereof many things might be said: but time will reveal many things which yet lie hid.  
Master Gualther in like sort, writeth thus to the Bishop of London, for the time being. Many do urge in these days under a plausible name of Ecclesiastical Discipline, I know not what a platform, without the which they deny that any Churches can continue. But I do greatly fear lest they bring us in an aristocraty, which will shortly degenerate into an oligarchy: and become the beginning of a new Papacy. For their only labour is to set us up a Presbytery, whereinto certain honest men, are indeed admitted: but yet so as the Ministers will do in a manner what they list. It was of late decreed by the Ministers at Heidelberge, that no man should be admitted to the Lords Supper: except he first offered himself to the Pastor. For Paul's rule is not held sufficient there: uz. that every man should try himself. The Elders did not agree to this decree: but yet notwithstading it is urged in the name of the Presbytery, nay of the whole Church etc. But there was not long since such an example of a new tyranny there, as may justly fear any, that careth for the liberty of the Church. There is there an Helvetian the Governor of the College of Saint Denis, as innocent and godly a man as liveth. Howbeit Olevianus the Pastor warned him by the crier of the Presbytery, in the name of all the Elders, that he should not come to the lords Supper: adding this cause, that he could not admit him, absque animi sui offension, without the offence of his mind. The party took this dealing (as it was reason) in evil part: and desireth to know what he hath committed that deserved such a punishment. But they answered him not otherwise, then that they continued in the same mind. Whereupon he offered a Supplication unto the prince Elector, that he would compel them to show the fault, if there were any, that he had committed. But until this day he could extort nothing else in effect from them. This is their goodly order: this is their Discipline. Quare video nobis seriò vigilandum esse, ne ex Romanae hydrae vix domitae vulneribus nova capita pullulent: wherefore I see we are to be vigilant, least new heads do bud out of the wounds of the Romish hydra, scarcely yet subdued.  
And in another letter, 
March 16. 1574.  to the Bishop of Ely, of the same matter he addeth: that the Prince Elector upon the said parties complaint, did move the Elders to show, what he had committed that they dealt so with him. Sed ne hoc ab illis impetrare potuit: but he could not prevail so much. Marry at the last (saith Master Gualther) being many ways more earnestly urged thereunto, they fell to coining of lies, and persuaded the Prince that he abstained from the Lords supper of his own accord: and now of that his voluntary forbearing would know the cause of them. Many such things are done which it would be too long to rehearse. Seeing they begin in this sort, having not as yet any full possession of their new kingdom, what shall we think they will do: si merum imperium obtineant, if they obtain an absolute authority? By this letter also it seemeth, that long since, by Oecolampadius means, notwithstanding Zwinglius withstood it: there was such a like form of regiment erected in Basill: but shortly after (saith Master Gualther) he was compelled to give it over again, learning by experience that he had attempted a matter of greater discommodity than profit. I cannot therefore dislike of them, that oppose themselves to these endeavours, who so busily in these days plead this for matter, etc. There are in Germany, and in another certain pl●●e (he meaneth I think Geneva) that deny the kingdom of Christ can continue, except the Discipline which they have devised be received in every place. I doc contain myself that I may not be said to have begun the fight: Sin illi Classicum cecinerint, but if they sound up the Alarm, I cannot choose but defend the doctrine of truth, and the liberty of the Church: not doubting but that many will join with me herein.  
The same Gualther also again in another letter to the said Bishop of Ely. 
26 August. 1574.  I shall not need to use many words what I think of your innovators, sith I have done it in my last Letters. And surely I am greatly confirmed in my former opinion, by the examples, which such like innovators in Germany do bring forth. Video enim illis hominibus nihil ambitiosius, nihil insolentius, nihil ineptius, fingi posse. For whereas there are many things most wickedly done by them daily, yet they are not ashamed to pretend the zeal of God, in excuse of those things, which contrary to the word of God they devise both wickedly and maliciously against the servants of Christ. But as far as I can conjecture: many by whose counsel and assistance the frame of this Discipline was chiefly erected, are now ashamed of them.  
But that which Master Gualther writ the same year to Bishop Sands, is most pertinent. I understand that the strife amongst you, procured by certain turbulent innovators, doth wax hot, and that they are gone so far, that under the plausible title of good order and Discipline, they desire the whole government and policy of the Church of England to be utterly overthrown. Surely I should marvel at the immodesty and wilful desire of contention in these men: but that I see the same in practice elsewhere, especially in all those places where the authority of the brethren of Geneva is so greatly esteemed, that Geneva is accounted the Oracle of all Christendom. God hath indeed adorned that Church with diverse excellent gifts,: and the Ministers thereof: amongst whom, Master Beza I have always reverenced and loved, and do so still. But yet I would wish them modestiùs & humiliùs sapere, and not seek to draw their shoe upon every man's foot, etc. What hath been done in the Palsegraves' Country, I writ unto you before. Surely the state there as touching Discipline, and the government of the Church, all men that come thence do say, it is worse than it was before, and it is sure, that many do repent that they ever admitted these men's counsel. But yet the Genevians doc still endeavour to thrust that their Discipline upon all Churches. And if they shall deny this, they may be sufficiently convinced by the Book of Theological examples, that Beza published this other year: that they suggest their arguments and counsels not only to you Englishmen, but in like sort to the Germans, Phrisians, Polonians and Hungarians: whereby amongst those that agreed well together before, rixae & turbae enascuntur, brawlings and quarrels do arise, etc. And so having signified what troubles the innovators beyond the seas as well as in England do procure to the Church, he moveth the Bishop to do as he and Master Bullinger did: that is, to moderate such busy wits (as they might) for a time. For (saith he) spero aedificium hoc novae Disciplinae brevi propria mole ruiturum, quando satis constat, iam eius pertaesos esse, qui priús illud admirabantur. I hope the frame of this new Discipline, will in short time fall, of itself: considering that many are now become weary of it, that had it, before in admiration.  
An other likewise, a Gantois, a very grave and learned man, as well acquainted with this Discipline, as Master Cartwright is: being desired to write his opinion, whether it had brought forth such effects in Holland, as is before pretended it would do in England, for answer saith. Is any man able to repeat the monstrous Heresies and errors, that Holland doth nourish etc. under the shadow of reformed religion? this is aimed at, uz. that the turpitude of all blasphemies, being covered with this cloak, may lie hid, and that it may be lawful without controlment, if any list to recall the old Paganism, or to profess Mahomet's Religion, or what worse is, if there be any thing worse. Again, the Magistrates have invaded the church-good. The Ministers have little allowance. There is no respect of the study of Divinity. The Magistrates do suspect the form of Ecclesiastical government: first becanuse they fear, lest it will degenerate into a worse tyranny than the Spanish Inquisition: Secondly, for that they see a new Senate of Elders in their Towns, to exercise with the Ministers, a censure of manners without laws, but such as they make themselves, and without any lawful form of justice. The old Canon law is abrogated, and the Magistrates will allow no new. For they fear, that the new would prove worse than the old. Besides, they will not commit the fame of themselves and theirs, to the arbitrement of ignorant men, such as for the most part their Elders are, who may abuse their authority rashly, and lay such an infamy of adultery or other grievous offence upon a man's back, as he shall not afterwards easily cast from him. The Ministers desire, that the Magistrates would punish those that disobey their commandments: which they will never do, except they may first by due course of law hear the cause, they of that Consistory being either actors or accusers: and that, the Ministers and Elders refuse to do, etc. Besides, some of the Ministers themselves that profess the Gospel, are not free from those swarms of Heresy, which do make their hives there, etc.  
And in an other letter, speaking of the general event of that kind of discipline: Vereor ne exemplum Geneuensis ecclesiae, et quarundam aliarum ecclesiarum quae eam secutae sunt, maiorem quàm vulgo creditur perniciem ecclesiae adferat: I fear lest the example of the church of Geneva, and some other Churches that follow her, may bring greater mischief to the Church, then is commonly believed.  
One William nn a minister, & the preacher, not long since at Emden, notwithstanding all their goodly reformation in those parts, yet writ in this sort thereof, unto his secret friend M. Field. Corruption by custom is so strong, that none can abide the yoke, and wonder you would, if you saw what gross things the best ministers do clean devour, and those of the middle sort, do earnestly stand and plead for. If you did see the confused state of the Churches of these countries: you would say that England, (how bad soever) were a paradise in comparison: and yet I have not forgotten the blots and wants thereof. The truth which he speaketh of the Church of England, is to be embraced: for the rest, you may ascribe it unto his factious humours.  
Furthermore also, there are some other countries not yet mentioned, where the pretended discipline is in practice: and yet there are no such fruits found thereof, as are ascribed unto the entertainment of it. Be pleased to hear what an especial man of some one country, a minister, a gentleman greatly descended, a person of chief estimation, hath published to the world in print, Cum privilegio Regali: and procured to be sent abroad into other countries, in certain of his servants names.  
The 
a Ser. 3.  profane multitude of this kingdom: they 
b Ser. 4.  disdain the word spitefully. There 
c Ser. 4.  are two sins joined in the profane multitude, gluttony and blood: They 
d Ser. 4.  go forward in all course of sin, the more they are forbidden. They make 
e Ser. 4.  no account of the death of Christ. They are 
f Ser. 1. in Psalm. 76.  altogether godless.  
The Church 
g Ser. 1.  is made a prey to all men, there is such disdain and contempt of the word in the whole estate. Confusion 
h Ser. 3.  of Church and policy doth grow from day to day: and 
i Ser. 1. in Psal. 76.  threateneth utter extermination. It is 
k Serm. 5.  the Lord that wonderfully continueth the light amongst us, and that keepeth the face of a ministery in Scotland. There is no good entertainment, but a very great poverty in the most part of all the ministery. The greatest part 
l Ser. in Psal. 76.  of our Priests, our Ministers, their mouths have lost the truth, and their persons have lost their reverence: the Lord hath made them contemptible in the eyes of men.  
Floods 
m Serm. 1.  of iniquity do flow over great men: There is no great man, but whatsoever liketh him, he thinketh it lawful. The Gentlemen, 
n Serm. 5.  Earls, Lords, and Barons, they are so drunk with sacrilege, that before they part with that gear, they had rather part with the life of their souls: they had rather lose their souls a hundredth times, then bestow a halfpenny upon the Church. Our 
o Serm. 6.  own mean Lords do fall into such proud contempt, that they are ready to take up open wars against God: so as that julian was no greater professed enemy, than they are like to be if they continue. The great 
p Ser. 1. in Psal. 76  men in this country, are become companions to thieves and pirates, oppressors and manifest blasphemers of God and man: ye see murder, oppression, and blood is the only thing, that they shoot and mark at. The Lord 
q Serm. 1. in Psal. 76.  hath no greater enemies, than the great men, in this country, etc. They are burning, and scalding, slaying, and murdering, using all kind of oppression and raging, so as if there were no king in Israel.  
And generally thus. This 
a Serm. 1.  country is heavily diseased. The sins 
b Serm. 2.  of the land craveth, that all pulpits sound judgement. If you 
c Serm. 2.  look to the growth of sin: more ugly sins were never committed. The land 
d Serm. 3.  is overburdened, with the birth of iniquity. The 
e Serm. 3.  best have taken a loathing of the word of God. The weight 
f Serm. 6.  of God's wrath, that hangeth over this land, is insupportable. O unhappy 
g Serm. 6.  and wrathful country, &c: the more that knowledge groweth, conscience decayeth. See 
h Serm. 6.  ye not slaughter in great measure, oppression, murder without mercy? see ye not all law and equity trampled under foot? Is there 
i Serm. in psalm. 76.  any clean place in the country, &c: without the cries and lamentable voices of terrible murder, oppression and blood? The most 
k Serm. in psalm. 76.  part of this country, is given over to a strange delusion: to prefer the leaven of the Pharisees and dregs of papistry before the word of God. There is 
l Serm. 6.  none that seethe the confusion of this country to grow so fast: that can look for any redress in his own time: all runneth on to a desolation and miserable confusion. Faith is 
m Serm. 1 in psal. 76.  scarcely to be found; yea not faith in promises: let be faith in Christ jesus. God hath 
n Serm. 5.  given us over to be deceived by the mighty power and working of the devil.  
Hitherto this learned preacher: Whereby a man may see, that some countries may be in as evil a case, that have the Genevian platform, set up amongst them: as some other that care not a fig for it.  
But oh say the authors of the first admonition: 
Admo. 1. pag. 13.  is reformation good for France, and can it be evil for England▪ Is Discipline meet for Scotland, and is it unprofitable for England▪ Again: Surely God hath set these examples before your eyes, to encourage you to go forward to a through and speedy reformation. 
Ibidem.  And likewise master Cartwright: Whereas master Doctor would bring us into a foolish paradise of our own selves, as though we need not to learn any thing of the Churches of France and Scotland: 
T.C. lib. 1. p. 194.  he should have understanded, that as we have been unto them an example, and have provoked them to follow us: so the Lord would have us also profit and be provoked by their example. Whereunto I make no other answer but this: that I pray unto almighty God withal my very soul, for the long and happy continuance of the blessed example, which this Church and realm of England hath showed in this last age of the world, unto all the kingdoms and countries in the earth, that profess the Gospel with any sincerity: and that also of his infinite mercy, not only the kingdoms of France and Scotland: but all other Christian kingdoms and countries may taste so plentifully of his heavenly graces, as that they may become daily better and better examples to stir up another, to the right and true paths of all godly unity and obedience, of hearty and sincere profession of religion, and of such righteousness and holiness of life, as may be worthy the professors of the same. This only I trust I may say without any offence: that (as I think) we have better causes of encouragement at home to pray for the present form of Ecclesiastical government and Discipline, that we may have it still: then we can find abroad (the premises of this chapter being true) why we should either wish or desire to have any foreign platforms or practices, of I know not what kind of pragmatical discipline brought in amongst us.  
A Discipline devised at Geneva; established there by cunning: and obtruded by practices upon other Churches. A Discipline, the more it is looked into by the favourers of it: the more doubts and imperfections, they daily find in it. A Discipline the original whereof is unknown: and therefore hath no warrant in the word of God. A Discipline so lately hatched: that as yet it hath no certain name agreed upon. A Discipline of that nature: as they know not well how to bestow her. A Discipline, that banisheth such Apostolical Bishops, as Christ appointed: & admitteth like an adulteress of those, who indeed should serve her, to have an equal commandment over her. A Discipline, that will have Doctors of her own: and when she hath them, she knoweth not how to bestow them. A Discipline of such humility, as forsooth Princes and Noblemen, must be, but her inferior officers. A Discipline so disdainful, as she forgetteh the very names of her said officers, or at the least knoweth them not, though they be Noblemen or Princes. A Discipline, that will needs seek in the scriptures for those new kind of rulers; but she is ignorant where to find their qualities. Whether she would have them to be Lay-men, or Ecclesiastical; she is not yet resolved. A Discipline, that when she entertains her servants: casteth them of again at her pleasure, without any offence committed by them. A Discipline that having servants, doth want a warrant for their employment: either in their particular, or in their general offices, which she would feign assign unto them. She would have Lay-mennes to make her ministers: to be her confessors: and to bind and loose her sins. A Discipline, that will needs have her particular officers, both men and women, after her own humour: to do nothing else, but carry her purse, and wash her feet. A Discipline, that by reason of her train: would be very chargeable. A Discipline, that hopeth to turn all the Church livings, which either are or have been (belike) into Nunneries: and so to become herself the Prioress of them all. A Discipline, that will needs be a new Pope joane, and have to deal in all ecclesiastical causes, either by hook or crook: nay almost in all sorts of matters whatsoever. A Discipline of such partiality: as what she condemneth in others she approveth in herself. A Discipline, that disdaineth the ancient fathers and general councils. A Discipline, that dareth to disgrace any of the new writers, if they take not her part. A Discipline, that seemeth to allow of nothing but scriptures: & yet dependeth altogether upon her own friends and Synods. A Discipline, that sometime to dazzle men's eyes withal; can be content, to pretend, that the ancient fathers and councils, do plead for her estate: but she doth pervert them. A Discipline, that to serve her turn doth wring and wrest the scriptures, this way and that way as she is disposed. A Discipline, that possesseth men with so great self-love and pride, as for want of good neighbours, they are feign to take pains to commend themselves. A Discipline, that is contented to be magnified and exalted, against all that is called god upon earth. A Discipline, that is utterly forsaken, by many that have been her friends. A Discipline accounted by those, that do still remain her best friends, not to be so necessary, as heretofore she hath been reputed. A Discipline, that promiseth mountains: and brings forth Myce. A Discipline, that is greatly disliked for her pride: her making of debate, where she comes: her taking upon her like an Empress to command and rule at her pleasure. In these respects, and many other which I could allege, she is (I say) a discipline, that is greatly disliked of sundry of her neighbours: and even of them, who when she was at the last gasp did revive her: little suspecting that ever she would have proved so ambitious a creature: as since by experience they have found her to be. And therefore for mine own part: seeing I find no country as yet, that is so greatly to be envied for any especial happiness, that this pretended Cherubin hath brought forth or procured, where she is received: I will continue my former prayer, that the Church of England, be never troubled with such a discipline: but that our old and present Apostolical form of Church-government, under her excellent Majesty by Archbishops or Arch-builders and Bishops, practised in the Apostles times, approved by all the ancient fathers and general councils, and continued in this land since the time, that it first professed christianity, may together, with her Highness, our most Sovereign Lady, be long & many happy years maintained, blessed and preserved amongst us. The which almighty God grant, for his Son jesus Christ's sake our Lord.  
Amen.   

Errata.  
Pag. 17. lin. 15. for Elders read, orders  
Pag. 21. lin. 31. for he told him, read, he told them  
Pag. 43. lin. 22. for her full, read, their full  
Pag. 58. lin. 8. for coming, read, cunning  
Pag. 71. lin 6. & 7. for out Baths, read, out of the Baths  
Pag. 73. lin. 25. for scrolls, read, scraps.  
Pag. 75. lin. 14. for reparation, read, reputation  
Pag. 75. lin. 29. for carries, read, carrieers  
Pag. 92. lin. 11. for nominaum, read, nominavit  
Pag. ead. lin. 20. for protrahere, read, pertrahere  
Pag. 96. lin. 11. for reasonable, read, usual  
Pag. 117. lin. 24. for capitali, read capituli  
Pag. 122. lin. 18. for nisters, read ministers  
Pag. 141. lin. for or, read either  
Pag. 143. lin. 3. for not, read, most  
Pag. 145. lin. 7. for all, read almost all  
Pag. 146. lin. 13. for then, read they  
pag. 148. lin. 5. for Vezelius, read, Pezelius  
pag. 149. lin. 6. for his, read these  
pag. 155. lin. 29. there wants, to  
pag. 171. lin. 3. for laicis, read laicos  
pag. 195. lin. 2. for cares, read ears  
pag. 216. lin. 28. for adherent, read adherents  
pag. 221. lin. 8. for doth, read doteth  
pag. 225. lin. 22. for tendeth, read tend  
pag. 228. lin. 14. accommotated, read accommodated  
pag. 231. lin. 9 for to, read of: Ibi. lin. 22. for preacher, preachers  
pag. 231. lin. 31. for precisely, read prettily  
pag. 234. lin. 30. for hath, read have  
pag. 238. lin. 1. the which course, read the course which  
pag. 291. lin. 28. for more, read mere  
Pag. 340. lin. 26. for all proud, read all that proud  
pag. 342. lin. 27. ancienty, for antiquity  
pag. 346. lin. 24. amst, for amongst  
pag. 350. lin. 9 for to Aerius, read of Aerius  
pag. 353. lin. 28. for as you are, read as they are  
pag. 355. lin. 10. not ancient, for not the ancient  
pag. 374. lin. 21. the word can is omitted  
pag. 375. lin. 24. for know, read knew  
pag. 377. lin. 23. simple, read simple men  
pag. 392. lin. 16. read former chapter  
pag. 393. lin. 3. for Adrius, read Aerius  
pag. 397. lin. 3. for Bishop, read Bishops  
pag. 399. lin. 19 read thus, aswell with very many of their masters as with their scholars  
pag. 405. lin. 28. for he should, read he should not  
pag. 486. lin. 21. for this, read his.  
FINIS.